House of Commons
Thursday, June 10, 1926
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
Private Business
Shorehan Harbour Bill ( King's Consent signified ),
Bill read the Third time, and passed.
Wolverhampton Corporation Bill, Read the Third time, and passed.
Edinburgh Corporation (General Powers) Order Confirmation Bill,
"to confirm a Provisional Order under 1the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, relating to Edinburgh Corporation (General Powers)," presented by Colonel Sir JOHN GILMOUR; and ordered (under Section 8 of the Act) to be read a Second time upon Friday, 18th June, and to be printed. [Bill 121.]
Oral Answers to Questions
Naval and Military Pensions and Grants
Disability Pension (N. Lumb)
asked the Minister of Pensions whether his attention has been drawn to the case of Mr. Norris Lumb, of 46, Town End, Golcar, near Hudders-field, who lost the sight of his right eye from a gunshot wound while serving in Russia and who is suffering from defective vision in the left eye consequent on the injury to the right eye; and, as he has not received any compensation, apart from the supply of glasses, from the Ministry in respect of the growing disability in the left eye, he will arrange for Mr. Lumb to be medically examined with a view to an increase in his pension in accordance with the degree of disablement?
The claim in this case that defective vision of the left eye is consequent upon the injury for which the man is in receipt of pension could not be accepted by the Ministry, and this decision was confirmed by the Pensions Appeal Tribunal on appeal by the man in September, 1923. With regard to the last part of the question, I may say that in response to representations which were subsequently made the case has been specially reviewed, and Mr. Lumb has been examined by a specially constituted Medical Board, which found, however, that the only defect of the left eye was a slight error of refraction which could not in any way be associated with his War service. In these circumstances there are no grounds on which I could adopt the suggestion of the hon. Member.
Medical Officers
asked the Minister of Pensions how many medical gentlemen are now employed by his Department throughout the country as medical referees or in any other capacity; what fees are paid; what is the total cost per annum; and whether the appointments are whole or part time?
There are 338 medical officers now in the regular employment of the Ministry, of whom 252 are employed in a full-time and 86 in a part-time capacity. Of the full-time officers 50 are permanent civil servants, and the remainder are serving under contracts of temporary service varying from one month to three years. The total cost of these officers for the financial year ended the 31st March, 1926, was £261,'185, and the estimated cost for the current financial years is £222,240. In addition to the medical staff in regular employment, it is still necessary to have frequent recourse to the assistance of private medical practitioners who act as examining medical officers (formerly described as medical referees), members of medical boards, supervisors of clinics, visiting surgeons, anæsthetists, etc., and are paid fees varying from £5 5s. to 5s. according to the nature of the services rendered. The total number now employed is 1,752, and the fees paid during the financial year ended the 31st March last amounted to £230,446.
57th Howitzer Brigade (H. Hickey)
asked the Minister of Pensions whether he is aware that H. Hickey, of 41, Athol Street, Earlestown, Lancashire, driver, 10th Division, 57th Howitzer Brigade, was awarded a pension of 12s. 6d. a week in 1915 for an injury to his leg, that after being in several hospitals for treatment his wound apparently healed and his pension stopped in 1921; that since then he has been in Moseley Hill Hospital for the same wound, but was informed that the time for pension had passed, and that he has been and is again under medical treatment; and whether he will inquire whether this is a case where a pension should again be paid?
I find on inquiry into the facts of this case that there is no record of the man having been wounded. He did not serve overseas. His service, which extended from September, 1914, to May, 1915, was entirely at home. He was discharged unfit at the latter date on account of a disability due to an old injury to his right leg. The injury had been received some years before enlistment while the man was playing football, but compensation was temporarily awarded in respect of aggravation by military service. Treatment for the condition was subsequently given, and on its termination in November, 1921, it was decided that the effects of any aggravation of the pre-existing disability had disappeared. Along with the notification of this decision to Mr. Hickey, he was informed of his right of appeal to the Pensions Appeal Tribunal, but he did not take advantage of his right. I have no evidence to show that the man's present condition is due to his War service.
Is there nothing in this man's record to show that he had been kicked by a mule while serving?
I understand that the incident in question occurred in connection with football; a mule, I think, was not concerned.
If this man's disability had been due to war service, which the answer says it was not, would he now have been entitled to a pension for it?
That is a hypothetical question.
Coal Trade Dispute
Clubs and Restaurants
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, in view of the present coal stoppage, he proposes to limit the hours of music and dancing in clubs and restaurants?
I am advised that I have no power to limit the hours of music and dancing in clubs and restaurants.
Do I understand that under these Regulations the right hon. Gentleman has not the power to prevent these dancing clubs going on till two o'clock in the morning, when vital railway services are being suspended?
I can only repeat that I am advised that under the Emergency Regulations I have not the power. If the hon. and gallant Gentleman desires to confer more powers upon meߞ—
If the right hon. Gentleman will seek powers, I will gladly put my name at the back of the Bill.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we were advised by the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Ken-worthy), last night, to keep cheerful?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that they were most lugubrious over there?
Maternity and Child Welfare
asked the Minister of Health if he is aware that the Welsh Board of Health are advising that no relief under the maternity and child welfare scheme be given to relieve distress arising out of the dispute in the mining industry, but that such relief be given by the guardians of the poor, and that the Newport, Monmouthshire, Poor Law Union protest against this additional burden being placed on the funds of this Union without any additional Grant-in-aid; and will he consider cancelling this policy?
It is no part of the maternity and child welfare scheme to relieve distress. Milk can only be supplied under that scheme to mothers and young children who are certified to need such a supply on medical grounds. The policy which has been adopted in this matter by the Welsh Board of Health, on my instruction, is as follows: While there should be no discrimination against the wives or children of men involved in the present dispute, no additional expenditure beyond that already approved for the supply of milk during the current financial year can be recognised for the Exchequer Grant-in-aid. If therefore, a maternity and child welfare authority spend more money on milk because of the dispute, the additional expenditure must be found out of the rates, but the better course would be that the distress arising out of the dispute should be dealt with by the guardians. I see no reason to modify or cancel this policy.
Wives of Trade Unionists. (Relief)
asked the Minister of Health whether boards of guardians are acting with his approval when they cut down the relief of the wives of trade unionists out of work and destitute from 10s. to 5s. a week whenever lock-out pay of 10s. has been received by the men, although there is no poor relief whatever for the men so assisted by their trade unions?
In considering an application for relief it is the duty of the guardians to take into account all relevant facts including any income received by a member of the household. In the case put it would appear that the guardians have regarded half the strike pay as available for the wife's support. The practice of guardians on this matter varies in different parts of the country and I am not prepared to say that what has been done in this case is unreasonable.
May I ask whether there are many boards of guardians that adopt this excessively mean method of penalising the wives of trade unionists?
I am not prepared to accept that description of the action of the guardians.
Can he say how many do it?
If the hon. Member will put down a- question on that point, I will answer it.
Has the right hon. Gentleman taken any steps whatever to ensure that adequate relief is given?
That is not my duty; it is the duty of the guardians.
Will the Minister of Health say whether the auditors of the Ministry of Health have any power to force guardians to give a lower scale of relief than they consider proper?
The Minister said that he was not responsible, but the guardians were responsible. Is it not the case that he is the Minister of Health, and he is responsible for the health of the people of this country ( Interruption. ]He is the Minister of Death, that is what he is, and he looks it. [HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw, withdraw!"]
Order, order!
Arising out of the reply of the Minister to the effect that it is the duty of the guardians to provide adequate relief, will the right hon. Gentleman state whether his Department has not in the past two weeks denied the West Ham Guardians that particular right?
I think that question should be put down on the Order Paper.
On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker, may I remind you that the question which I put to the Minister arose directly out of the answer which he gave, and I would like to know upon what grounds you rule that my question should be put down on the Paper?
I would like to point out to the hon. Member that we have only reached Question No. 30, and it is now 3.30.
On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker, I wish to ask if it is in order for an hon. Member to call one of the Ministers the "Minister of Death," and to say that "he looks it"?
I did not catch the hon. Member's remark, but if it was as stated, then it was a very improper remark. [HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw!"]
On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker, as you have just stated that the hon. Member ought to withdraw his remark, if that was what he said, are you going to ask him to withdraw that statement?
I have expressed my opinion about it. I know the hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood) makes these interjections. But I do not think it is worth more notice, and perhaps the way I have dealt with it is the most effective.
Royal Commission (Recommendations)
asked the Prime Minister whether the Government is prepared to take at once the legislative and administrative action necessary to make effective the recommendations of the Coal Commission?
The task of making effective the recommendations of the Royal Commission must rest primarily and mainly with the industry itself. But the Government, although the rejection of their proposals by the owners and miners has left them with liberty of action, are continuing the preparation of legislative and administrative measures indicated in those proposals.
Will these Measures be introduced before very long?
I have every reason to believe that there may be some opportunity for discusion before many days are past, when I shall be pleased to go into the matter.
May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman is prepared to give effect to these recommendations provided that, say, one party is willing to accept them?
Perhaps my hon. Friend would be good enough to await the discussion, which I think will arise before long.
Mineral Royalties
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury if he will publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT the names of the mineral royalty owners in the West Yorkshire mining area?
The information desired by the hon. Member is not in my possession. It could only be obtained by reference to the returns furnished by the royalty owners for the purpose of Mineral Rights Duty, and, as these returns are confidential, the Board of Inland Revenue are precluded from disclosing any information contained in them.
Can the right hon. Gentleman explain why it is that I can get the names of any poor persons who are receiving outdoor relief, but I cannot get the names of the people who are taking out of the coal industry all this money every year?
I can only repeat that this particular information for which the hon. Member asks is not at the disposal of the Treasury.
Will the right hon. Gentleman tell me where I can get this information, which I think ought to be public property, in order that we may know who these people are?
May I ask whether the Act of Parliament under which this duty is collected was an Act of a Parliament in which the Government was supported by the Leader of the Opposition?
Are all the Members of the Parliamentary Labour party prepared to make public all the details of their own private incomes? [ Interruption ]
If the right hon. Gentleman has not the information at his disposal in his Department, will he not consult the Mines Department, and is he not aware that there exists a Catalogue of Mines, from which he can get this information?
The hon. Member is quite as able to approach the Mines Department as I am.
rose —
Mr. Duckworth.
On a point of Order. The Financial Secretary, in his reply, said that the information given to the Inland Revenue Department was confidential. I want to know whether he cannot give what he is asked—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"]—whether it is in order for him to state that it is confidential when what he is asked for are the names, and not the facts and figures given by these individuals in putting forward the returns to the Treasury? He is only asked for the names, and not for their financial statements.
The Minister has already replied to that question.
I venture to put before you, Mr. Speaker, the question whether we are not suffering daily from the fact that the Rule that every Member must resume his seat when you rise is, not once, but habitually broken? [ Interruption. ]
I do my best to maintain that Rule, and I would ask the support of the House in doing so.
Existing Situation
( by Private Notice )asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the deepening distress in the country and the failure of the conversations between men and owners on Tuesday, the Government now propose to take any action, either legislative or administrative, to create conditions from which a settlement of the dispute may come.
I am keeping the situation under review but am not in a position to make any further statement at the moment.
Does the Prime Minister not consider that a time has arrived when the Government ought to take possession of the coal mines, and work them in the interests of the country?
Will the men work? [HON. MEMBERS: "Yes!"]
Will the hon. Member work in a coal mine?
I put my supplementary question to the Prime Minister in. all seriousness. I hope he will treat it in all seriousness, and give an answer
In all seriousness, I say "No"
Aliens
German Trade Unionists
asked the Home Secretary why Herr Leipart, President of the General Federation of German Trade Unions, and Herr Knoll, a member of the German Federation, have been refused permission to enter England for the proposed congress on 22nd June?
I think the hon. and gallant Member must be misinformed. The two persons mentioned have received visas, and I know of no reason to anticipate that they will have difficulty in obtaining leave to land in the United Kingdom if and when they apply.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I regret very much that I have been misinformed?
Communists
asked the Home Secretary whether he can give approximate figures of the number of alien Communists in this country; whether the whereabouts of the majority are known to the police; and whether they are being returned as opportunity occurs to their respective native lands?
It would not be desirable to give the figures asked for in the first part of the question; but the hon. Member may rest assured that the doings of all Communists, alien or otherwise, receive all necessary attention. I do not hesitate, whenever I am satisfied that an alien is undesirable, and opportunity offers, to order his deportation to his own country.
Does my right hon. Friend agree that there are still far too many of these undesirable aliens in this country, and can he say how many there are?
I can get figures in reply to the last point if the hon. Gentleman will put the question down. I gave them last year, and I can give, approximately, up to date in reply to a question. In regard to the numbers of actual aliens, they are not nearly so large as British-born aliens. The children of aliens born here are British-born.
Can the right hon. Gentleman also give the House the names of the aliens who are connected with the Tory party?
Might I ask are any of them Communists?
Could the Home Secretary inform the House, arising out of the original reply, how many foreigners were presented at Court the other night?
Is it the view of the Home Secretary that the fact that a man is a Communist is sufficient ground for his deportation?
Certainly not. The fact that a man has Communist ideas does not make him a subject of deportation, or for any action by way of prosecution to be taken. It is a question of the activity shown in imparting those ideas to other people.
Then the right hon. Gentleman says that while it is not an offence to hold those views, it is an offence worthy of deportation to express them?
No. My hon. and gallant Friend is too clever. He must not put words into my mouth that I did not use. People are entitled to hold and to express their views, but they are not entitled to endeavour to alter the Constitution of our country in their own direction by forcible means.
Examination at Port of Entry
9 and 52.
asked the Home Secretary (1) whether he is prepared to introduce legislation, after the Australian precedent, whereby undesirable foreigners of doubtful nationality can be excluded by an examination test;
(2) whether he will legislate in accordance with precedents of American democracies for keeping in quarantine foreigners of doubtful or simulated nationality, and for ordering such undesirables into quarantine pending inquiry as to their nationality and domicile of origin?
Under the existing law all aliens are subject to examination at the port of entry, and those who are undesirable are excluded. Moreover, every person (unless under 16) landing in the United Kingdom is required to be in possession of a passport or other document establishing his nationality. Accordingly, no further legislation is necessary to effect the objects which my hon. Friend has in view.
Questions
Clubs (Sale of Alcoholic Liquors)
asked the Home Secretary if he is now in a position to make any statement as to the representations made to him on behalf of the clubs with respect to the hours of supply?
I would refer to the reply which I gave on the 25th March to the hon. and gallant Member for East Fife (Commander Cochrane).
Pentonville Prison
asked the Home Secretary if he has considered, or will consider, the removal of Pentonville Prison to some more suitable spot; and whether there is at present much unused prison accommodation outside the Metropolis?
This would be desirable, but a large initial expenditure would be entailed, and the money could not be found at present. There is no vacant prison near the Metropolis that could take the place of Pentonville.
Is the Secretary of State aware that the Caledonian Road is an important alternative route to the North, and that the road is very narrow at that spot?
I am aware of that. I have closely inspected the prison, and I should very much like to have it moved into the country, but in the present state of our finances it is quite impossible.
Married Women (Nationality Law)
asked the Home Secretary whether replies have yet been received from all the Dominion Governments to his attempts to ascertain their views on an amendment of the British Nationality Act to provide that a British woman should not lose her British status by marriage until, by the law of her husband's country, she has acquired his nationality; if so, whether the replies be favourable; and what steps His Majesty's Government have in contemplation in this matter?
I am informed that replies have now been received from all the Dominion Governments except the Government of Canada. The desire has been expressed that the matter should be further discussed at the forthcoming Imperial Conference, and it is hoped to make arrangements accordingly.
Poplar Borough Council
asked the Home Secretary what action he proposes to take with regard to the request which he has received from the Poplar Borough Council asking him to receive a deputation from the council?
After careful inquiry regarding the incident in question I came to the conclusion that no useful purpose would be served by my receiving a deputation, and I have so informed the borough council?
Had the right hon. Gentleman received any report from any body other than the police from that district before he took his decision?
No, I will not guarantee that I have, but of course I have not had notice of the question. I think I may say that I am relying and am entitled to rely upon the police reports which I have received.
I have no doubt that the Secretary of State is right in what he says, but at the same time there are a very large number of hon. Members—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"]
Arrest (H. Taylor)
asked the Home Secretary if his attention has been called to the case of Mr. H. Taylor, of 44, Albany Road, Roath Park, Cardiff, the secretary of Homeseekers' Federation Limited, who was arrested on 4th February, 1926, and held in custody until 5th February, on the charge of having conspired to defraud Alexander Freeman of £78 3s., being 15 per cent, premium on a house valued at £500; and whether he will take immediate steps to have this trial proceeded with, at once?
I have made inquiries and find that this case was on the 19th April referred by the Justices to the Director of Public Prosecutions for his consideration owing to an application on behalf of the solicitor for the prosecution for permission to withdraw the charge against the defendants, and the defendants have been remanded until Friday, the 11th June, at the request of the Director in order to complete his inquiries, when the case will be dealt with by the Justices.
Is the Home Secretary aware that the charge originally in stituted was withdrawn, and the solicitor who advised was suspended by the Law Society, and that the charge had been kept over the head of this man since the 4th February, and the Director of Public Prosecutions thinks—
The hon. Member knows more of the Director's intentions than I do. I do not know what they are. It is quite true that the charge made was made a long time ago, and was withdrawn. But the Justices who were hearing it came to the conclusion that the papers should be sent to the Director of Public Prosecutions, and he, after consideration decided go on, with the prosecution. I cannot say more while the prosecution is pending, because I do not want to prejudge the case.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this Mr. Taylor is being held up and unable to secure employment with wages because of this charge resting over him? He is exceedingly anxious to have the case tried or withdrawn. Why is the delay? Is it that the Public Prosecutor is too busy in his Department to expedite the hearing of this case? Is the Home Secretary aware that it is a very serious reflection upon the administration of justice that any individual should be held up in this way with a charge hanging over his head?
I agree with the hon. Member. I am all for expeditious justice. I had not had my attention called to this case until quite recently. I will ask the Director of Public Prosecutions to direct his attention to the case.
General Strike
Russian Government Payments
Home Secretary's Statement
asked the Home Secretary what is the attitude of His Majesty's Government towards the contributions made to the funds of the Miners' Federation from the Russian Government during the present dispute?
asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that among the sums received on behalf of the miners' funds during the present dispute are contributions made by the Russian Soviet; and whether he will reconsider the question of exercising his powers under Regulation 13A of the Emergency Powers Regulations to prohibit the entry of such contributions into this country?
On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker, I understand that one of the Rules in submitting questions is that a Member should satisfy himself about the correctness of the statements embodied in the question. I submit that in this case the hon. and gallant Member for the Hands worth Division (Commander Locker-Lampson) was not in a position to satisfy himself that the statement that money had been paid by the Russian Government was correct?
That question was put to the hon. and gallant Member, and he took personal responsibility for the question.
On a further point of Order. Is it in order for an hon. Member in a question to impute unworthy motives to a Government with whom we are in friendly relations?
I inquired on that point, and understood that the hon. and gallant Gentleman was prepared to vouch for his statement.
On a point of order may I ask you whether I may reply to this?
No, I have dealt with it.
I propose, with the assent of my hon. and gallant Friends and of the House, to answer these questions together.
I am aware that members of the Russian Soviet Government have, during the last two years, made repeated published declarations intimating their desire and intention to interfere in the economic affairs of Great Britain, and in particular that they have made known their intention to take sides both in the general strike and in the stoppage in the coal trade. Further,- I have received information of the despatch from Russia of considerable sums of money, amounting to some hundreds of thousands of pounds, first for the purpose of the general strike and secondly for the purposes of the Miners' Federation. But the whole position is now being considered by His Majesty's Government, and I should be obliged if my hon. and gallant Friends would repeat their questions this day week.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he is aware that an Order has been sent—[HON. MEMBERS: "Do not read your question!"] On a point of Order, am I not permitted to read the name of a Russian gentleman—that an order has been sent by Mr. Piatakoft. the President of the Supreme Economic Council of the Soviet, to the Russian coal consumers rationing those consumers, whilst the Soviet is taking advantage of the opportunity to develop its markets, and, if that be so, whether it does not mean—
That is one of the class of questions which I like to see in writing.
May I ask quite specifically whether the Government, in the inquiries which they have undertaken up to now, have sent for the Russian Charge d'Affaires, and examined him in the matter, and whether, as the result of those inquiries—
Do not read it. [ Interruption. ]
Take it from me, Mr. Speaker, we will not listen to their Front Bench.
Hon. Members can trust me to see that order is kept.
Secondly, may I ask whether, in those inquiries the Government have found evidence which would justify the statement that the Russian Government have been supplying funds to the Miners' Federation in the present business?
As regards the first part of the question, I have not communicated with the representative of this friendly Power—I have not thought it my duty to do so. With regard to the second part of the question, my answer has been very carefully guarded. I have said that I think some members of the Russian Soviet Government are implicated. My inquiries are not yet complete, and I have not yet stated what is the exact connection of the Russian Government itself. I have guarded the answer. I hope to be able to make a more definite statement this day week.
But arising out of that—I think we must get this very clear—am I right in assuming that, so fir as His Majesty's Government are concerned, their investigations, up to now, have not justified the statement in this question?
I do not quite like to go so far as that. The right hon. Gentleman knows as well as I do the intimate relations between the different bodies in Russia—the Soviet Government, the Third International, and the various other organisations—the very close co-relation between those bodies. I have not yet, in answering the question, established that any money has been directly and definitely sent from one of those bodies, namely, the Government itself, but I am undertaking to say it has been sent by some of those co related bodies.
Is the Home Secretary in a position to say which of the bodies to which he referred, as being proved to be co-related to the Russian Government, has been sending money?
Perhaps I might relieve the right hon. Gentleman's trouble by saying that, since he has been asking this question, I have just received an intimation from the Foreign Office that we are satisfied that, during the general strike, the Russian Government did send money to this country, transferring funds for the purposes of the strike.
But may I ask whether the Foreign Office is also informed that those responsible for the conduct of the general strike refused that money, and whether, in this case, the Foreign Office has informed him that the money that has gone to the miners has come from that source?
I think the right hon. Gentleman had better keep clear the distinction between the general strike and the miners' strike. [ Interruption. ]
On a point of Order. The question that is being considered just now is not the general strike, but the miners'.
I do not think that is a point of Order. I am prepared, as I think I have said, to satisfy the House, or to intimate to the House that I am satisfied—that His Majesty's Government are satisfied—that money has been sent from Russia, including some money from the Russian Government, for the purposes of the general strike. Money is now being sent from various organisations in Russia for the purposes of the miners' stoppage. [ Interruption. ]
And from the Prince of Wales, too.
The two questions are cognate, but separate. I have said that His Majesty's Government have not yet arrived at a decision as to what action shall be taken in regard to the money sent for the general strike, and, secondly, what action they are to take in regard to the money still being sent to the miners.
As this matter is so serious, and both sides of the House wish it to be discussed, can we have a Debate next week, so that we may prove the Soviet's association with subversive activities [ Interruption. ]
The question of a Debate is, of course, a matter for others—the Chief Whip and the Prime Minister. But I certainly hope to be in a position to-day week to give a full statement to the House, either in Debate or in answer to a question.
I think we should now pass on to other questions.
Communist Propaganda
asked the Home Secretary whether he can now publish the documents seized recently at Communist headquarters?
I hope to do so very shortly.
When will that be?
I have got the documents in print.
Will these documents be at the disposal of the Members of the House?
Certainly, as soon as they are published.
Emergency Powers Regulations
asked the Home Secretary whether he has reached' any conclusion regarding the cases of men sentenced for offences under the Emergency Powers Regulations during the recent strike: and whether he is prepared to recommend any remission or revision of sentences?
I have considered, as I said I would in the course of the Debate on the 2nd instant, every representation which has been made to me whether by Members of this House or by others. I have also obtained from every police force full reports on all incidents out of which proceedings arose, particulars of the offences and of the result of the proceedings, and of the character and circumstances of the persons convicted; and all these reports, as well as the few applications received, have been gone through most carefully, with a view to seeing whether merciful intervention could properly be recommended. I ought to say that, just as the people of this country behaved during the emergency with great calmness and moderation, the police also showed restraint in deciding to initiate proceedings or to carry them through, and the magistrates in their turn showed discrimination and fairness, discharging some persons, binding others over, fining others, and only passing sentences of imprisonment in the worst cases. Throughout the country, in 1,760 proceedings, 632 sentences of imprisonment were passed. A considerable number of prisoners lodged notices of appeal, and in those cases, of course, there can be no intervention pending the determination of the appeals.
As a result of my general review I find that the cases have been so dealt with by the Courts £hat, even on grounds of pure clemency, there is no justification for recommending intervention in any considerable number of cases, but I am glad to be able to say that in a few cases, without casting any doubt whatever on the propriety of the action taken or the sentences passed, I have been able to find sufficient grounds for recommending the discharge of the prisoners concerned. One or two applications are still coming in, so that I am not yet in a position to give numbers, but I ought to say that, with the utmost desire to recommend mercy where it can properly be shown, I cannot hold out any hope that the numbers will prove to be large.
Has the right hon. Gentleman noticed a Motion on the Paper in the name of my right hon. Friend the Member for West Swansea (Mr. Runciman) and other Members asking for an amnesty, and will he use his influence with the Parliamentary Secretary to secure facilities for it?
Is it possible for the right hon. Gentleman to arrange for the exercise of clemency in the case of the man Gibbons about whom I wrote him?
State Loss by Strike
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether any later investigations justify him in varying his estimate of the loss of three-quarters of a million sterling to the State as the result of the recent general strike?
The Treasury has not yet received final figures from Departments. If my hon. Fried will repeat his question in, say, a fortnight's time, I should hope to be able to give him a definite answer.
Death in Prison (Mr. R. Russell)
asked the Home Secretary whether he is now in a position to make a statement with regard to the circumstances attending the death of Mr. Reginald Russell, in Bedford Prison, on 23rd May?
I have not yet received the report of the inquiry which has been held, but I expect to have it in the course of a few days.
Building Research (Chadwick Trust)
asked the President of the Board of Education if he is aware of the foundation of studentships for building research to be administered by the Chadwick Trust; and if he will encourage the co-operation of the building research station in this work?
I am informed that a sum of money has been paid over to the Chadwick Trustees to be administered by them for the encouragement of building science and research. The Director of Building Research, under the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, in his private capacity, is, I understand, one of the two advisers to the Chadwick Trust in connection with the award of the studentships for building research, and co-operation with the building research station will be thereby facilitated.
Bogus Employment Agencies
asked the Minister of Health if his attention has been drawn to the number of bogus employment agencies now operating in various parts of the country; and, in view, of the victimisation of people who are seeking domestic helps, will he draw the attention of all local authorities to the provisions of The Public Health Acts (Amendment) Act, 1907, as affecting employment agencies?
I have been asked to reply. I have no information as to the first part of the question. With regard to the second part I have no reason to suppose that local authorities generally are not aware of the provisions of Section 85 of the Public Health (Amendment) Act, 1907, and I do not think that any special action of the nature indicated is necessary.
Medical Officer of Health (Golborne)
asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that the Golborne District Council, Lancashire, advertised for a medical officer of health possessing D.P.H. qualifications, and that the person appointed was not so qualified; and will he inquire as to why the candidates holding such qualifications were passed over in favour of one not so qualified?
The appointment referred to has been submitted for my approval, and I am in communication with the council on the point mentioned in the latter part of the question.
Hanwell Asylum (Patient's Property)
asked the Minister of Health whether he has received a communication pointing out the injury done to a lady, T. C, who was confined in Hanwell Asylum from, 1919 to 1924, whose property was taken from her, as well as valuable testimonials without which she cannot pursue her calling; whether he is aware that on discharge the union officials who had had charge of her belongings during her detention offered her a soiled mattress, blankets, bolster, and pillow instead of her own, which were clean and fresh ones, of which she had been forcibly deprived of, and that she refused to accept what was offered to her; will he see that new articles are given to her instead of those taken; and, in view of frequent complaints that the clothing of one patient is often substituted for another, will he take steps to put an end to the practice?
The facts of this case are fully set out in the communications which I sent the hon. Member as a result of the questions which he addressed to me on the 12th March and 2nd April last year, to which I have nothing to add. I do not consider that any further action is called for.
Is it not a fact that it is already admitted that the testimonials were not handed back?
I have given the hon. Member all the information in my possession.
Kent Colliery District (Miners' Houses)
asked the Minister of Health if, with reference to the action of the Kent County Council in co-operating with local authorities in schemes for miners' houses in the new colliery district, he will say how much land has been acquired for this purpose; and how many houses utilising compressed cork as a walling material have been approved for the Government subsidy at Betteshanger or elsewhere in Kent?
Arrangements are at present being made for the acquisition of a total area of some 700 acres of land for the erection of miners' houses in the new Kent colliery district, under schemes promoted by the local authorities. As regards the second question, approval for subsidy purposes has been given in respect of 56 houses of the special form of construction in question to be erected at Betteshanger and other districts in Kent.
Contributory Pensions Act
asked the Minister of Health whether the widow of an insured man who died prior to 4th January, 1926, is treated as qualified to become a voluntary contributor under the Widows', Orphans' and Old Age Con- tributory Pensions Act; and, if so, what are the conditions under which she may become entitled to medical treatment, sick and disablement benefit, and an old age pension on reaching the age of 65, subsequent to January, 1928.
The widow of an insured man who died prior to 4th January, 1926, is not qualified to become a voluntary contributor under the combined scheme of Health Insurance and Pensions by reason of her late husband's insurance. If, however, she has at any time been insured under the National Health Insurance Acts for at least two years or has been engaged in a specially excepted employment for at least two years since 15th July, 1912, she is so qualified, on giving notice within the limited time allowed for the purpose, and m that case she becomes entitled to medical and other benefits subject to the usual conditions laid down in the Acts.
asked the Minister of Health how many widows whose husbands died prior to 4th January, 1926, are in receipt of pensions under the Widows', Orphans' and Old Age Contributory Pensions Act; and, if the number is below the estimate given in the Report by the Government Actuary on the financial provisions of the Bill, what is the estimated saving in expenditure for the year 1926–27?
On the latest figures available the number of pensions awarded to the widows of men who died prior to 4th January, 1926, is 128,600. In addition over 2,000 claims are at present under investigation and claims continue to be received at the rate of 200 a week approximately. As regards the second part of the question I would point out that the expenditure charged to the Vote is a fixed sum of £4,000,000 a year and is in no way affected by any difference between the actual and the estimated number of beneficiaries.
Lunacy Reform (Royal Commission)
asked the Minister of Health whether the Royal Commission appointed in 1924 to inquire into the subject of lunacy reform has completed its labours; and whether its Report will be published at an early date?
I have been asked to reply, and I am afraid I can add nothing to the answer which I gave last Thursday to a question by my hon. Friend the Member for Oxford University.
Poor Law
Out-Relief
asked the Minister of Health on what grounds he has issued instructions to boards of guardians that in ordinary cases out-relief should not be greater than unemployment benefit, and that the relief given to the wives and children should not exceed 12s. for the wife and 4s. for each child; whether, in addition, he has fixed the maximum of relief to be given to any one family; whether he has refused to allow boards of guardians in necessitous areas to renew loans for the purpose of out-relief unless the foregoing scales have been complied with; and, if so, whether he will give a list of these districts?
In the circular letter which is apparently referred to in the question, no definite instructions were issued to boards of guardians as to the amount, of out-relief to be given. In view, however, of conserving the financial resources of the guardians in the exceptional circumstances in which the letter was issued it was suggested that a scale should be adopted, and attention was drawn to the benefits under the Unemployment Insurance Act which had already been taken as maxima by many boards of guardians for ordinary cases. The figures of 12s and 4s. respectively for wives and children of strikers are those found sufficient in 1921 adjusted in view of the alteration in the cost of living. No maximum of relief for any one family is mentioned in the letter. I am sending the hon. Member a list of cases in which reductions in the scale of relief were made before borrowing for current expenditure was authorised.
Casual Wards
asked the Minister of Health what action has been taken to remedy the defects as disclosed in the survey raised in the Inspectors' Reports of the Casual Wards in the Unions in Wales (including Monmouthshire), which were published in 1924, and with reference to the other deficiencies of casual wards in other parts of the country?
This matter is constantly under review, and my inspectors continue to press upon boards of guardians the need for remedying such defects as are referred to and have not already been removed, but substantial improvements have already been obtained in many instances.
Have the defects shown in the 1924 Report been remedied?
Substantial improvements have been made since that time.
asked the Minister of Health whether he will take steps to prevent the closing of Cricklade and Bassett Ward and other casual wards adjacent, in view of the fresh wave of vagrancy likely to follow on industrial distress; and whether he will inquire as to the seven years' resistance of the Caersws Guardians, Machynlleth, to putting their wards in order?
The Vagrancy Committee for the County of Wiltshire is considering what, if any, changes should be made in the casual ward accommodation of the county, and when I receive their recommendations I will certainly bear in mind the consideration suggested in the question. As regards the last part of the question, the Machynlleth Guardians have experienced substantial difficulties in the preparation of their proposals, and are now, I understand, considering new sites upon which casual ward accommodation can be provided.
Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that one of the guardians declared at a board meeting that he had been trying for seven years to get the Order of the Ministry carried out, and that it had been defied?
No, Sir; I am not aware of that. I do not think that it makes any difference to the facts.
Agriculture
Smallholders (Scholarships)
asked the Minister of Agriculture the number of Class III scholarships for agricultural workers who have become smallholders; and whether it is intended that the scholarship grant shall be continued for a further period?
As far as information is available, four ex-Class III scholars have become smallholders. With reference to the second part of the question, I have asked the Central Scholarships Committee to examine the working of the scheme during the experimental five-year priod which ends this year, and to formulate for my consideration their views upon its future.
Disinfectants
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether any protests have been received against the proposed conditions of approval by him of the disinfectants that may be employed under the Diseases of Animals (Disinfectants) Order, 1926, and more particularly against the nature of the selected test to determine the dilutions at which the approved disinfectants must be employed; and whether, as the proposed method of testing the value of these agents is one which has never been adopted by Government Departments in this or any other country, nor by the large railway and shipping, etc., companies, nor by health authorities, he will give this matter fuller consideration before taking any further action?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The Chick-Martin method of testing, which is laid down by the Ministry's Regulations, is also adopted as the basis for the approval of disinfectants by the Board of Trade and by His Majesty's Office of Works, and I am satisfied that this test affords the best means of judging the efficiency of a disinfectant for the purposes of the Diseases of Animals Acts and Orders.
Sugar Beet
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether any representation has been made to him by any locality to induce the sugar-beet factory companies to pay rates for sugar beet higher than the existing 54s. rate; and, if so what has been the result of their efforts?
No representation has reached me from any locality asking me to intervene between beet-sugar factory companies and the farmers, either individually or through their union, with respect to a change in the beet price. As I stated in my reply on 11th March to the hon. Member, the terms of the beet contracts have been arrived at after negotiations between the National Farmers' Union and the factory companies. The conditions of this agreement are being observed by both parties.
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether, with regard to the Ely Beet Sugar Factory, Limited, which is one of those subsidised concerns which is allowed to purchase under agreement 75 per cent, of its machinery and plant abroad, he can say whether the provision of tugs and barges now being purchased abroad by this company comes within that percentage?
Under the British Sugar (Subsidy) Act, the 75 per cent, condition is applied, not to foreign machinery and plant, but to British machinery and plant installed in the factory for the manufacture of sugar and molasses, and I am advised that tugs and barges cannot be regarded as plant and machinery installed for that purpose. The position of the Ely Beet Sugar Factory, so far as the 75 per cent, condition is concerned, was fully dealt with in the reply given by my predecessor to the hon. Member for Blackpool (Sir W. de Frece) on 15th June, 1925. I may add that I have received information from the Company which shows that opportunity was given to British firms to tender for the tugs and barges referred to.
Foreign Barley
asked the Minister of Agriculture the total quantity of foreign barley imported into the United Kingdom during 1925; whether he can state what proportions of such imported barley were used for malting or distilling purposes; and, if unable to do so, whether he will call for a return from malting and dis- tilleries of the total quantity of foreign barley malted or distilled during 1925?
I have been asked to reply. The quantity of barley imported into Great Britain and Northern Ireland during 1925 was 15,779,000 cwt. No information is available as to the quantities of imported barley used for malting or distilling purposes, and I regret that I cannot undertake to obtain such information. I would point out that maltings are not under official control.
May I point out that it is impossible to hear what the Minister is saying, owing to the noise which is coming from the benches opposite?
Questions
Road Fund
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury what is the estimated amount of the additional charge placed upon the Road Fund by reason of the decision referred to in paragraph 95 of his Memorandum on the Civil Service Estimates, that all grants payable in respect of road construction, whether instituted for the relief of unemployment or otherwise, should in future be charged upon the Road Fund?
The amount is estimated at £800,000 for 1926–27.
Old Windmills
asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department as representing the First Commissioner of Works whether, in view of the recent collapse of long erected windmills, he has considered whether any of those now standing merit official attention by reason of their 'historic or antiquarian associations; and, if not, whether he will do so.
One windmill at Chesterton, Warwickshire, ascribed to Inigo Jones, and dated 1632, has already been scheduled under the Ancient Monuments Act. If there are any others with historic or antiquarian associations, their claims will receive due consideration.
Trafalgar Square
asked the Undersecretary of State for the Home Department, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, when Trafalgar-Square was first closed to the public for the purpose of the repairs at present in course of execution, and when it is expected that the Square will again be open to the public?
Half of the Square was closed for repaying in August, 1925, and was reopened last April. The delay in completing is due to railway restrictions during the present emergency and to difficulty in obtaining the stone slabs from the quarry, but it is hoped that the whole of the Square will again be open by August next.
Victoria Tower Gardens
asked the Undersecretary of State for the Home Department, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, if he will arrange that children shall be allowed to play on the open spaces in the gardens of the House of Lords, in view of the inadequacy of the space now allotted to children in these gardens?
I assume the hon. Member refers to the Victoria Tower Gardens, which have no connection whatever with the House of Lords. As the hon. Member is aware, a sandpit for children has already been provided in these gardens, and any extension of this space-could not be given without detracting from the amenities of the gardens and interfering with the enjoyment of them by the general public. The First Commissioner also considers that St. James' Park affords playing grounds sufficiently near to render the allocation of further space to children in these Gardens unnecessary.
If the hon. and gallant Gentleman takes the opportunity on a fine evening of visiting these gardens and finds there is need for more space, will he arrange to give it?
I should have great difficulty in finding the fine evening.
Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman consider utilising part of the space in the Victoria Gardens to provide lawn tennis and bowling green courts for Members of the House?
As the hon. Member knows, that has been considered very carefully, but there is a feeling in the House that it is more important for Members to attend to their duties.
Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that there are large lawns in these gardens, and very many children who cannot reach St. James's Park, and would it be an offence against the amenities to allow the children to play on the lawns?
Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman provide small buckets and spades for Members of the House?
The hon. Member will perhaps make a personal application.
Kenya (Government Land Sales)
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that 21 plots of land are being sold by the Government in Mombasa in July, when only Europeans will be allowed to bid; and, seeing that this is a contravention of the non-segregation policy and likely to result in lower financial returns to the Government of Kenya, will he inquire into the matter?
I have been asked to reply. The information in the possession of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies does not enable him to identify the particular plots referred to in the question, but the facts are very probably as stated. It should be borne in mind that the transition from the policy of segregation to one of non-segregation necessarily involved some difficulties, and it was pointed out by the Governments concerned that in certain cases the land was legally subject to restrictive covenants entered into under the former system. After careful consideration it was decided that where it was not possible to waive such covenants without incurring legal proceedings entailing the probability of an injunction against the Government, it would be necessary to retain the restrictions. The sales men- tioned by the hon. Member no doubt fall within this category.
Post Office
Promotions (Birmingham)
asked the Postmaster-General whether any special conditions have been laid down as regards promotions in the postal staff at Birmingham; and whether he has received any complaints of the present system?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. Representations concerning an individual promotion were recently made by certain of the staff affected; but no grounds could be found for questioning the selection which had been made locally.
Is the Noble Lord aware that the man in question was informed that as he was not a member of the Postal Workers' Union he could not be promoted?
No, I am not aware of that and I do not think it is true.
Would the Noble Lord consider the advisability, in view of the enormous profits made by the Press, of taking away this postal subsidy and making them pay full value for the telegrams they get?
The hon. and learned Gentleman has mistaken the question.
Press Telegrams
asked the Postmaster-General, with reference to the statement that Press telegrams are sent at a rate which causes a loss to his Department, whether he gives credit in the account for the large profit made by the Department on the charges made to the Press for permits to use railway telegraph poles over and above the price paid by his Department to the railway companies?
My hon. and gallant Friend presumably refers to telegraph lines which are leased to newspaper proprietors or to Press agencies. No allowance in respect of profit on the leasing of such lines has been made, or is, in my opinion, proper to be made, in calculating the loss incurred in dealing with Press telegrams. But in any case the amount of such profit is not sufficient to affect materially the estimated loss on Press telegrams. Only a small proportion of these lines are on railways.
I beg to repeat my question.
I am afraid I have forgotten the exact terms of it.
In view of the enormous profits made by the Press, the huge dividends being paid to shareholders in the different companies and the high price paid for newspapers, will not the Noble Lord consider taking away this subsidy on Press telegram?
I have already stated that the matter is under the consideration of the Postmaster-General.
Wireless Station, Abu Zabal
asked the Postmaster- General whether the wireless station at Abu Zabal has been sold; to whom has it been sold; what is the estimated loss on the transaction; and whether there is any clause in the agreement that the station must be maintained for wireless telegraphic purposes?
Negotiations for the sale of the Abu Zabal wireless station have reached an advanced stage, but the transaction has not yet been completed. I am not, therefore, at liberty to disclose the proposed purchase price or the conditions on which the sale will be effected.
Branch Post Office, Goswell Road
asked the Postmaster General whether he is aware that the sub-offices at 84 and 151, Goswell Road and at Clerkenwell Green have emoluments greatly exceeding £500 per annum; that the ground floor of a new building in Goswell Road is vacant and would be suitable for a branch office to replace the three sub-offices; that the estabishment of a branch office is justified by the Holt Report recommendation and by reasons of efficiency; and if he will take steps to secure that a branch office be provided in order that this business area be given adequate and the best possible facilities?
The basic emoluments exceed £500 at only two of the sub-offices named. The building to which I understand the hon. Member to refer is not so situated as to admit of the closing of all three sub-offices if a branch office were opened there; and as matters stand, I could not justify the expense of creating such an office.
Questions
China (Anti-British Boycott)
( by Private Notice ) asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he is in a position to make a statement as to any development of the negotiations for ending the Canton boycott of Hong Kong?
The Canton Government on 8th June addressed a letter to the Governor of Hong Kong, through His Majesty's Consul-General at Canton, inviting the appointment of three plenipotentiary delegates to enter into negotiations for the settlement of the boycott. I am not in a position to make any further statement at the moment.
Scottish Newspaper Proprietors (Trade Union Employes)
( by Private Notice )asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware of the decision of a majority of the Scottish Newspaper Proprietors' Association not to permit in future the employment of any member of a trade union in their concerns; whether this decision affects hundreds of men in Scotland; and, in view of the declared desires of the Government with regard to reinstatement, he will say what steps he is prepared to take in the matter?
I have been asked to reply. I am aware of the circumstances to which the hon. Member refers. I understand that over 80 per cent, of the employés have been reinstated in their former places. I have no authority to interfere in the matter of the employment of union or non-union workpeople by individual employers.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many of these men have paid into superannuation funds for 20 or 30 years and it is now made a condition precedent to employment that they must surrender these superannuation benefits and repudiate their trade unions?
I should be glad to inquire into that question, but I have no doubt it will be open to the trade union authorities to agree to some system of commutation, if it is desired.
Are we going to take it that, despite the pledges given in this House and outside by members of His Majesty's Government, they propose to book on quietly while this state of affairs is proceeding amongst their political supporters in Scotland?
May I point out—
This is not the time for pointing out.
In spite of all the promises which have been given lately to avoid victimisation, are the trade unions to be allowed in future to be the only people who may carry out victimization?
Business of the House
Coal Trade Dispute (Debate)
Can the Prime Minister say what business it is proposed to take next week?
I do not know whether the Leader of the Opposition wishes time for discussion of the mining question. I shall be glad to arrange for that. If it be the desire of the Opposition to put down a Vote of Censure, we will give a day for it. If it be the desire of the Opposition to have such a discussion, we will take care that a suitable Supply is put down on which that discussion can take place. Apart from that, the business for next week will be:
Monday and Wednesday: Finance Bill, Committee.
Tuesday will be left for the discussion to which I have referred, in whatever form it may be desired.
Thursday: Supply, Committee, Scottish Estimates. Friday: Private Members' Bills; Report and Third Reading.
Ordered,
"That the Proceedings on the Finance Bill have precedence this day of the Business of Supply."—[ The Prime Minister.' ]
On a point of Order. I put a Supplementary Question to the Prime Minister and, seeing that the Prime Minister's answer was so unsatisfactory—of course, I agree that a Debate should take place on the Vote of Censure next week—in regard to my question whether the Government would take the pits and work them, I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, "the necessity of the Government to take possession of the coalmines, and work them in the interests of the country."
That does not come within the Standing Order relating to matters to be discussed on the Adjournment. I am afraid that if hon. Members were to move the Adjournment every time the Government does not do what they think it ought to do, we should have frequent Adjournments.
Is not this question of sufficient public importance to warrant the Adjournment of the? Is it not of far more importance than the Betting Duty?
I am not discussing its importance, I am only saying that it does not come within the provisions of the Standing Order.
Secretaries of State Bill
Reported, with Amendments, from Standing Committee B.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed.
Bill, as amended ( in the Standing Committee, )to be taken into consideration upon Monday next, and' to be printed. [Bill 120.]
Post Office (Sites) Bill
Reported, with Amendments, from the Select Committee, with Minutes of Evidence.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Bill, as amended in the Committee, re committed to a Committee of the Whole House for Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 122.]
Criminal Justice (Amendment) Bill,
"to amend Section seven of the Criminal Justice Act, 1925," presented by Sir WILLIAM JOYNSON-HICKS; supported by Captain Hacking; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 123.]
Message from the Lords
That they have agreed to—
Ministry of Health Provisional Orders Confirmation (No. 1) Bill,
Ministry of Health Provisional Orders Confirmation (No. 2) Bill, without Amendment.
Amendments to—
Law of Property (Amendment) Bill ( Lords, )without Amendment.
Public Petitions
Second Report from the Select Committee brought up, and read;
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Selection (Standing Committees)
Standing Committee B
reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Members from Standing Committee B: Rear-Admiral Beamish and Vice-Admiral Sir Reginald Hall; and had appointed in substitution: Mr. Edmund Wood and Mr. Herbert Williams.
further reported from the Committee; That they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee B (added in respect of the Merchandise Marks (Imported Goods) Bill): Mr. Shepperson; and had appointed in substitution: Lieut.-Colonel Windsor-Clive.
Standing Committee D
further reported from the Committee; That they had nominated the following Members to serve on Standing Committee 1 Lieut.-Commander Aetbury, Mr. Joht Baker, Mr. Batey, Commander Bellairs, Mi1. Roy Bird, Sir Harry Brittain, Brigadier-Geneal Brooke, Lieut.-Commander Burney, Mr. Campbell, Mr. Clowes, Mr. Cove, Mr. David Davies, Mr. Drewe, Captain Arthur Evans, Sir Harry Foster, Mr. Harrison, Mr. William Hirst, Mr. Homan, Lieut.-Colonel Horlick, Sir John Leigh, Dr. Little, Mr. Livingstone, Captain Peter Macdonald, Lieut.-Colonel McDonnell, Mr. Scurr, Captain Styles, Major the Marquess of Titchfield, Sir Francie Watson, Mr. David Williams, and Mr. Robert Young.
further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following Ten Members to Standing Committee D (i'n respect of the Petroleum Bill [ Lords, ]the Coroners (Amendment) Bill [ Lords, ]and the Local Government (County Boroughs and Adjustments) Bill [ Lords: ]Mr. Barr, Sir Henry Cautley, Mr. Rhys Davies, Mr. Fenby, Lieut.-Colonel Fremantle, Mr. Gates, Captain Hacking, Sir Dougles Newton, Mr. March, and Major Salmon; and (in respect of the Petroleum Bill [ Lords ]and the Coroners (Amendment) Bill [ Lords only]: Sir William Joyn-son-Hitks and (in respect of the Local Government (County Boroughs and Adjustments) Bill [ Lords ] only Sir Kingsley Wood.
Reports to lie upon the Table.
Orders of the Day
Finance Bill
Further considered in Committee. [ Progress, 9th June.]
[Captain FITZROY in the Chair.]
CLAUSE 15.—(Duties on betting and on certificates required in respect of bookmakers' business and premises.)
The first Amendment on the Paper, to leave out Sub-section (1), is out of order. It is a direct negative and would wreck the Clause.
May I, with great respect, point out that this is the first time we have seen the Betting Duty. We had a Debate on the Budget, but we did not know what the Duty was to be, and when the Resolution was before the House, for reasons of which you are aware, no Debate took place. Is it not right for my hon. Friends and myself to take the first opportunity of challenging the principle of a Duty, it may be right or wrong, which is entirely new in our procedure? What other course could we take to challenge that tax, than putting down an Amendment to leave out the first Sub-section of Clause 15 which imposes the tax.
Before any reply is given to the hon. and gallant Member, may I ask whether it is proposed to take the course which has been adopted on many occasions in Committee 'recently of permitting a general Debate, a sort of Second Reading Debate, upon some Amendments that will be called. Will not that give the hon. and gallant Member the opportunity he seeks? As far as I and my friends are concerned, we are agreeable to fall in with the practice which has now become so general of having the general Debate on the first Amendment and then taking a Division upon the other Amendments without further discussion.
That is what I was going to suggest when the hon. and gallant Member for Ripon (Major Hills) interrupted me. The hon. and gallant Member will have plenty of opportunity of challenging the duty. It is a well-established rule in Committee that the Chair does not accept an Amendment which is a direct negative of a Clause. The usual course if an hon. Member challenges the whole of a Clause is to vote against the Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill." I think what the right hon. Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden) suggests will be for the general convenience of the Committee. We can take not only a general but a full discussion on this Betting Duty on the first Amendment standing in the name of the right hon. Member for Colne Valley. The Clause lends itself very much to such a discussion. There are three separate paragraphs, each of which can be discussed on their merits.
I assume that will not preclude hon. Members from discussing the merits, within order, of detailed Amendments.
Hon. Members may discuss the merits of particular Amendments at a later stage.
Do you propose to call the Amendment in the name; of the right hon. Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon), in page 10, line 9, to leave out "five" and insert "one," which raises another matter altogether?
It is my intention to call all the Amendments, except the first, which, I have already indicated, is out of order.
A general discussion will be taken on the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley?
Yes.
I beg to move, in page 10, line 3, to leave out the words "first day of November, nineteen hundred and twenty-six," and to insert instead thereof the words "fifth day of April, nineteen hundred and twenty-seven."
4.0 P.M.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer stated that in proposing this Duty he was not looking for trouble but for revenue. We sometimes find what we do not set out to seek. The Chancellor of the Exchequer may find his revenue, and certainly he has already found an abundant measure of trouble. He has succeeded in disuniting his own party, as is evidenced by the fact that an Amendment for the rejection of the proposal stands first upon the Paper in the names of four Members of his own party.
Five.
Five Members of his own party. He has also succeeded in uniting those who are not usually associated together in popular agitation. He has roused the violent opposition of the racing and betting interests—an industry I believe they call themselves—and he has roused the widespread and unanimous opposition of the Christian churches of the land and of all the agencies which are working for the moral welfare of the people. Indeed, the only people who are supporting this proposal are those who want their own taxation relieved by taxing the vices of other people. The right hon. Gentleman has often deprecated the introduction of the moral issue into the discussion of this question. It is impossible to avoid it, because the proposal does raise in a very definite form the whole question of the relation of the State to the question of betting; and, if the Chancellor of the Exchequer will forgive me for saying so, I think he has been singularly and for him unusually unsuccessful in the efforts he has made to try to show that the moral issue is not really raised in this proposal. In one of the discussions which have taken place on this matter he said:
If, according to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, it would raise a grave moral issue if betting houses were spread all over the country, how can the moral issue be avoided if, as is proposed by this Bill, you give everybody a legal right to apply for a licence as a bookmaker and to register an office? As a matter of fact, under this Bill the Chancellor of the Exchequer is proposing, if not to set up betting offices all over the country, at least to provide a legal means to do it. Apparently it would not be immoral to have a certain number of licensed houses, but it would be immoral to have them spread all over the country. He has used the argument that the State at the present time takes a profit out of betting. It gets Income Tax. Yes, because in a sense that kind of betting which is taxed for Income Tax, I will not say is legal because I have dealt with that word already, but is not illegal; therefore, under the Income Tax laws, the Inland Revenue authorities have a right to tax the income of a man which is made not by illegal methods.
rose —
The hon. and learned Member is, of course, a great authority on this question. He was Chairman of the Committee which reported and he knows something about it, but he has expressed very conflicting views on the subject in the Report, in newspaper articles, and in speeches which he has made in this House, and I am looking forward with the greatest interest to the speech which no doubt he will contribute to the discussion this afternoon, but for the moment, perhaps, the hon. and learned Member will forgive me if I ask him very respectfully meanwhile to allow me to proceed. Another point that has been raised in the course of the discussion, and answered on more than one occasion by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, is as to whether this tax will increase betting. Some people argue that it will have the effect of reducing betting or destroying betting altogether, and others say that it will increase it. Therefore, the right hon. Gentleman uses his favourite argument on this question as upon all others. If he can find two persons of opposite views taking different lines in the course of a Debate, the right hon. Gentleman always jumps up and says: "There is no need for me to reply; these two speeches and arguments are mutually destructive." In this connection, I would like to point out that the argument that this tax on betting will reduce betting or kill betting comes from one quarter, and the argument that it will increase betting comes from another. There are two people who take entirely different views on betting. The racing people—I beg their pardon, the racing industry—
Not all racing people.
I am quite aware that there are very honourable exceptions, but racing people generally—and we had a statement in a letter which appears in the newspapers this morning from, I think, the Racecourse Owners' Association—have told us that it is going to ruin horse breeding, horse racing and racecourses, and that it is going to throw tens of thousands of people now employed in this industry out of employment. Of course, one naturally expects that they will take that line. They do not want a tax, and, therefore, they naturally try to make the strongest possible case they can against it, because if they were to take the line that it would increase betting, then there would be no answer at all from the revenue point of view why the tax should not be passed, apart, of course, from the moral issue which is involved. The right hon. Gentleman himself estimates, upon the advice of his technical experts, that there will be a reduction in the amount of betting of something like £50,000,000 a year, and he says that there is no reason to anticipate that it will increase.
Let me put before the Committee a few reasons why I and a great many other people think that the effect of this duty will be to increase the amount of betting. Take the case of New South Wales. The simple fact of the matter, and the hon. and learned Member opposite (Sir H. Cautley) will confirm my statement, is that in New South Wales, in the first two or three years after the Betting Duty was instituted, the revenue receipts exceeded all expectations, and Mr. Holman, the Prime Minister of New South Wales, has said that since the institution of the duty betting has become the greatest curse in New South Wales. The hon. and learned Gentleman opposite, in a speech or newspaper article, said that no State which had ever adopted a Betting Duty had ever gone back. I shall have something to say on that point in the course of my observations. I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer will get his revenue. I do not doubt it for a moment, and I think the duty is likely to be much more remunerative than the Chancellor of the Exchequer thinks. That means that there will be an increase in betting.
Why?
Surely if there is going to be an increase in betting you must get an expanding revenue.
The Estimates are necessarily somewhat empirical at this stage. It may be that the Estimates are too low, but although there may be a decline in betting there may be an increase in the yield.
If the Estimates of the right hon. Gentleman are too low, he will get a larger revenue than he has estimated. But as I pointed out, in New South Wales it has been a progressive increase, and not due to an under estimate. Therefore if this duty is to serve the purpose of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and become a good revenue feeder there must be an increase in the amount of betting, particularly so when the Chancellor of the Exchequer is placing all the resources of the State at the disposal of those who desire to go in for betting. The deputation from the Free Church Council which met him the other day showed the extent of public opinion which is opposed to the Betting Duty. There is going to be an entire change of attitude on the part of many of the public to the question of betting when this duty is introduced. You are going to make it respectable. This duty will give it a prestige and respectability which it does not possess at the present time. You are making the bookmaker, the bookie, into a State servant; you are making him a tax collector.
Is not the publican a State servant? You make the patent medicine seller into a tax collector.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer in making that interjection convinces me that the purpose of my speech so far is being achieved. It may be said that it is a curious way to encourage betting by taxing it; that it is a curious thing to expect increase of consumption by taxing the commodity. Surely, after the debates of the last few days, we shall not have that argument advanced, because for the last two days we have had speech after speech from the opposite side pointing out that in taxing a commodity you cheapen the price, increase the consumption, and increase the amount of labour employed. Whether there be an increase in the consumption of a commodity, and I regard indulgence in betting as consumption for this purpose, depends to a great extent upon the facilities which are provided. And to increase the facilities, even on a taxed commodity, means that you are increasing the consumption, or the use of it. All experience in regard to liquor legislation proves that. Temperance reformers and non-temperance reformers, or shall I say, teetotalers, and non-teetotalers, have all agreed upon this, that the more public houses you have the more drinking there is and the party opposite were responsible for a Licensing Act, the main purpose of which was to reduce the number of licensed houses, and thereby reduce the consumption of liquor. The Chancellor of the Exchequer is increasing the facilities for betting. There will be a temptation open to millions of people who have not this temptation thrown in their way at present. I was coming up from the country on the Portsmouth Road the other day, and I saw two advertisements, nearly twice the size of that door, of a betting firm in Glasgow advertising their profession and inviting people to patronise them.
You will have them in the Post Office.
Of course you will.
That was before the duty was introduced.
Oh no; they were newly painted in anticipation of the duty. The bookmakers are doing what the papermakers have been doing. According to the statement of the hon. Member for East Dorset (Mr. Caine) yesterday, they have been anticipating the benefit they are going to get from the adoption of a duty on paper, and the hon. Member told us they had already made preparations to invest something like £500,000 of new capital in the industry. The bookmakers are quite as capable as the papermakers in taking time by the forelock. There is another important difference between the duty on betting as proposed in this Clause, and the drink question. Anybody can go to an office. I suppose it will be the Post Office or a Customs and Excise Office, and get a licence as a bookmaker, and a licence for betting under this Bill. But nobody can go to an Excise Office and get a licence to open a public house. He must first prove that he is a man of good character. Is that a condition you are going to impose on the bookmaker? He must also go before a bench of magistrates, and before granting him a licence they must take many considerations into account. The opinion of the locality must be considered. But any respect- able house can now by law have a registered betting house next door to it. There is nothing to prevent it.
They can do it now.
Even if they can do it now, it does not justify an extension of the practice, and the right hon. Gentleman by that interjection has exposed the fallacy of his argument and proved how little he understands the position of those who are opposed to this duty from the moral point of view. To say that there are betting offices now is no answer, and does not imply that we approve of the existence of betting houses. If we had the power we would sweep them away altogether.
Why did not you do it when you were in office?
Really I do not understand such an interjection. The hon. Member says why did we not sweep it away? I was asked by the President of the Board of Trade the other day why I did not do other things when I was in office. I suppose if the hon. Member was a member of a Government he would be able to do everything in the short space of three months.
You did nothing.
We evidently did so much that it was necessary for the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the succeeding Budget to undo part of what we had done. There is no real analogy between the taxation of liquor and the recognition of public houses, and the proposed duty on betting, the establishment of betting houses and the registration of bookmakers. What I have said in regard to our attitude, I am speaking of those who hold views similar to my own, is exactly our attitude on the temperance question. The liquor laws originated at a time when public opinion in regard to drink was not awakened; at a time when the drink evil was not so prevalent as it is to-day; when drink was regarded almost in the same way as tea or coffee is now. There was no moral sense in those days against getting a revenue from the taxation of drink. The hon. and learned Member who was the Chairman of the Committee which recently sat to inquire into this matter has said:
"It is not too much to say that streets of our industrial towns are infested with bookmakers."
I am almost inclined to think that betting, although it does not cause the physical effects that drink does, causes as much poverty and ruins innumerable promising careers. Betting is immoral because the man who bets is actuated by a desire to get something for nothing, and it causes a disdain for honest work. The amount of industrial inefficiency which is due to betting is enormous. Any man who knows anything about a factory knows that during racing time the minds of a great many of the workmen are not upon their work. It is the same through-out the whole of our economic system. The Chancellor of the Exchequer is proposing by this tax—
To curtail it.
To curtail it? He is not going to curtail it, whatever he may say, and no one knows that better than the hon. and learned Member opposite. I know that he has said that the only reason why he would support the tax was that betting might be under better control. The hon. and learned Gentleman knows all the facts and all the evidence and all the experience, and he knows that that result will not be achieved, but that the certain result will be to increase and extend the evil. The right hon. Gentleman himself stated that not one country which had imposed a betting tax had gone back upon it and that it produced a steadily increasing revenue. Yet the hon. and learned Gentleman wants to control it in order to lessen it. The Committee over which the hon. and learned Gentleman presided said that a tax on betting might be practicable but was not desirable. I do not deny that at all. I do not agree at all with those who say that there are insuperable difficulties in the way of collecting this tax. There will be a great deal of evasion; of that I have not the slightest doubt. But the Committee reported that if it were practicable, it certainly was not desirable.
I may say, in support of the statement that I made just now, that I think it will be collected without a great deal of difficulty, that I do not think it will be to the advantage of the respectable bookmakers—commission agents they call themselves, I believe— the respectable commission agents, to attempt to evade the tax. If they were discovered attempting to defraud they would, I suppose, run the risk of having their licences taken away and their means of livelihood would be gone. The Chancellor of the Exchequer will get his revenue, but that is not an argument in support of the tax. But the Chancellor could get tens of millions by taxing a large number of commodities, services, and other things now exempt. He has to justify this tax, not on the ground that it would bring in revenue, but on the ground that it is a desirable way of bringing in revenue, and that it is not going to bring moral and other disadvantages which will far outweigh the monetary advantage that it may give the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
I would have liked very much to have heard the candid opinion of the Home Secretary upon this tax. Why was the Home Office not called to give evidence before the Committee over which the hon. and learned Member for East Grinstead (Sir H. Cautley) presided. There can be no doubt whatever that, if we could get the opinion of the Home Office, it would not be favourable to this proposal. The hon. and learned Gentleman's Committee heard the evidence of the Chairman of the Board of Customs and Excise. He expressed himself with very great frankness before that Committee. He is still Chairman, and I am sure that in the meantime he has not altered his opinions and views upon the subject. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said in one of his speeches that he had had a revised opinion from the Customs and Excise upon this question. I see no difference between the later opinion of the Customs and Excise, as stated by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the opinion that was expressed by Sir Horace Hamilton when he gave evidence before the Betting Committee. Sir Horace Hamilton then stated that a tax on the lines proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer would be to the advantage of illegal betting—that the street bookmaker will be able to give better odds.
I know nothing about starting prices and odds and hedging, and so on. I may, perhaps, take the Committee so far into my confidence as to say that when I was a boy I once placed sixpence on a horse. The horse's name was "Northern Breeze." I thought a horse with a name like that certainly ought to win. I lost my sixpence, and I have always regarded that as being the best investment I ever made. If I had won there is no knowing what I might have become. I might have become a very prosperous commission agent. I must say another word about the Chairman of Customs and Excise. He stated that a Betting Duty would require the legalisation of all forms of betting, as to leave the street bookmaker outside would place the legal bookmaker at a disadvantage, the distinction between ready-money betting and credit betting cannot be maintained, because you are giving an advantage to an illegal form of betting and placing the man who has to pay a tax as bookmaker, and whose clients have to pay a tax on their transactions with him, at a great disadvantage compared with the man who is not recognised. That is an intolerable and an unfair condition of things which I am sure cannot permanently be maintained. On that point I am supported by the statement of the Chairman of Commissioners of Excise, who said that illegal betting cannot be suppressed now, and that it will be more difficult to suppress it with the additional attraction of relief from taxation. He stated also that you cannot have complete and effective control unless the betting is carried on by men who are known to the authorities and can be found at some registered address.
I sum up by saying that we offer our opposition to this duty not because we think that it will not get revenue. I believe that it will get revenue, as I have said. But the Chancellor of the Exchequer in proposing this tax is adopting what I think is a very—I do not like to use the word "foolish," but at any rate it is foolish from the Chancellor of the Exchequer's point of view, a foolish method of raising revenue because he ought to try to avoid as much trouble as possible. If he is compelled to levy new taxes he ought not to select those which are going to arouse the greatest opposition; he ought to follow the line of least resistance. He expects to get by this tax about £1,500,000 this year and £6,000,000 in a full year. Apart from all moral objections to the tax, it is not worth while upsetting the revenue system of the country for such a paltry revenue as that. He is to get only as much from it this year as a farthing increase in the Income Tax would have given him, and in a full year he is to get only about the amount of a penny on the Income Tax. To do that he is arousing all this public indignation. [HON. MEMBERS: "Which?"] There are some people who never read the newspapers. They follow the example of a former distinguished Cabinet Minister, and that no doubt explains the ignorance of the interjection.
It will necessitate an increase of staff, and if I were an officer of Customs and Excise I certainly would resent being made the agent of the administration of such a tax as this. We object to it because it must lead to the legalisation of betting in all forms and will cover the country with these registered offices. We shall have those little books of stamps that we get at the Post Office publishing glaring invitations to bet and advertising the attractions of being able to make money without work. We shall give respectability to this great evil. Most important of all, it will prejudice the full consideration of the relationship of the State to this question of betting. The whole betting law is in a most unsatisfactory and ambiguous state, and, if Parliament had time, it might well direct its attention to the consideration of the whole question of betting. I have no doubt as to what the opinion of Parliament upon this question would be if it could be freely expressed. Parliament had an opportunity, on a proposal made by a private Member to introduce a Bill, a few weeks ago, to legalise betting, and by an overwhelming majority that proposal was rejected by Parliament. Therefore I do not think the Chancellor of the Exchequer, apart from the revenue aspect of the question, ought to prejudge the future consideration of the whole subject by Parliament. For these reasons I move my Amendment, which is tantamount to the rejection of the whole tax.
I had not intended to take part in this Debate because in the Budget discussion I sufficiently indicated my general support of the proposals of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in connection with the Betting Tax. I confess, however, that the speech which the right hon. Gentleman has just delivered seems to require an answer from a person who has in times past filled the same high office as that which the right hon. Gentleman himself occupied with so much distinction, and who has had occasion to consider minutely the effect of such' a tax as this upon the morals of the community and the revenue which we might expect to derive from such an impost. There is another reason why I am gently stimulated to reply to the right hon. Gentleman. He has indicated in the course of his speech, both by the particular sum which he adventured on a certain occasion described by him and the name of the horse to which he gave his favour, that his spiritual home is really north of the Tweed and not south of it. As a further indication of the place where the right hon. Gentleman ought to have been born, I have always thought that he exhibited a faculty for logical argument which belonged much more naturally and persistently to the inhabitants of the northern part of this island. Unfortunately, sometime he is betrayed when he deals with matters of sentiment, and to-day the conviction was forced upon me that his happy faculty of using the syllogism in all his processes of ratiocination—to use the old university term—had somewhat failed.
I confess I appreciate to the full the opinions of those who, feeling that betting is a great vice in this country, want to do nothing at all to give it the slightest sign of State recognition. I agree with everybody who holds that point of view. In my opinion—and I think this opinion is supported by almost all social workers—there is really more distress caused in this country by excessive betting than by excessive drinking, though a large number of people prefer to blind themselves to that particular fact.
They go hand-in-hand.
If they go hand-in-hand—
Both cause social misery.
If that be a reason why public houses should be put down then it is a reason why other institutions should also be put down. I think the same arguments would apply in both cases. However that may be, I speak in complete sympathy with those who urge the moral argument and I, for one, like the right hon. Gentlemaai—although not to the same exiguous extent—have a comparatively small acquaintance with the particular subject with which we are dealing. Most of what I know about it I derived from the investigation and examination which I made when I was Chancellor of the Exchequer. I confess at once that during my period of office I came to the conclusion that this was a tax which might very properly be made one of the sources of the revenue of this country. To that opinion I adhere to-day, and I give my full support to my right hon. Friend in the Measure which he is adventuring at the present time in order to obtain the revenue which is needed.
On the moral question, if it is the case that this vice of betting is the cause of so much injury and harm as the right hon. Gentleman believes, and if, as he says, he would desire to sweep it away, I might take up a different attitude were he actually to propose some measure of that kind and were the conditions such as to make us think that he could carry his measure through. But I do not find anybody in the House of Commons who proposes to sweep away betting. I suppose that condition arises out of the fact which the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) enunciated in the last Debate, that nobody would have any success who attempted to do it to-day. Therefore we have to recognise, as I am sure this right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden) recognises, that it is not a mere question, as he seemed to assume, as to whether or not he could carry any such measure in three months. I have never seen it put on the programme of the Labour party that they proposed to exterminate betting in this country and make it a criminal offence.
When the Labour party choose to make that a plank in their platform, I shall be able to understand the moral argument which they bring forward as to refusing to recognise a thing which has such a vicious influence upon this great community. But, is it not hypocritical, if you do not take that action, to refuse to see that the thing exists? You shut your eyes and say, "We do not believe in it." Is that really a commonsense point of view? We know that not only does it exist but that the Exchequer derives something like £250,000 a year from the profits of those who are bookmakers—or commission agents as the right hon. Gentleman more gently called them. In these circumstances it seems to me, recognising that the thing does exist that there is no reason—unless we are prepared to exterminate it—why we should not say that this luxury like other things in this country and more than the industries of this country, should make a special contribution to the revenue of the State. Now I turn to what the right hon. Gentleman said about its legality. A large part of his speech was made upon the assumption that it is illegal to bet. It is nothing of the kind.
I did not say so.
The first part of the right hon. Gentleman's speech was based on the assumption that it was illegal to bet but that somehow the question was not tackled by the State. If he repudiates that argument all the first part of his speech goes by the board.
What I said was that it was not illegal—that it was not legal, but was not illegal.
The right hon. Gentleman is quite wrong. It is absolutely legal to bet, so long as you bet in certain places. He seemed to assume there was no such thing as legal betting. It is absolutely legal to bet upon a racecourse or through a commission agent in his office. All that is perfectly legal, and the right hon. Gentleman himself derived a portion of the revenue, when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer, from taxing the profits derived from those transactions. You cannot found any argument upon the basis which the right hon. Gentleman used in the first part of his speech. Then he said—and this brings us to one of the most critical parts of the argument—that in his belief, the taxation of betting is going to increase this vice. The indication he gave was that if the revenue exceeded the estimate of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he was then going to say that the tax had increased the amount of betting in this country. I cannot imagine any argument more fallacious. The fact is that we are all in a state of ignorance as to what this particular tax would produce. I do not know if the right hon. Gentleman made any estimate as to what such a tax would produce when he was in office. Perhaps he was unwilling to touch the accursed thing.
I never had time
I made an estimate as to what a tax on similar lines would yield, and I came to the conclusion that it would yield three times as much as the Chancellor of the Exchequer is claiming for it to-day. I thought the figure would be nearer £18,000,000 than £6,000,000. Accordingly, if this tax produced more than is estimated for it at the present time, that is not to be attributed to any increase which has taken place in betting because of the tax, but is only to be attributed to the fact that, to begin with, the estimate was too low.
The right hon. Gentleman drew an analogy from arguments which have been used in recent days with regard to the effect of taxation upon imported articles, and he seemed to think he had us in a dilemma, because we said that the taxation of imports from foreign countries would not necessarily decrease the amount of consumption. Therefore, he argued, the tax upon a purely local industry would necessarily increase the amount of consumption. Of course that is a fallacy. If the right hon. Gentleman only thought of his own old Free Trade doctrine, he would remember that the point of putting on an Excise duty as a countervailing duty to the Import duty, was that the home-produced article should bear the same impost as the imported article. Here there is no imported article at all. Racing is a sheltered trade, and is subject to no competition from outside. I cannot understand the theory that the putting on of a tax is going to increase the amount of the use of the particular thing which is taxed.
5.0 P.M.
There are two sets of people who use varying arguments upon this subject. There are the great organisations of the Churches, Who declare that the tax will accelerate and largely increase betting, and therefore they are against it. There are also the racing associations, who say that the tax will largely decrease the amount of betting and injure the breeding of horses in this country. Which of those views is the more worthy of acceptance? The racing associations are, for most part, composed of people whose living is derived from the breeding of racehorses, and the holding of race meetings. Is their judgment upon this matter not much worthy of acceptance? I have had so many poignant letters within the last few weeks upon this subject from bookmakers and commission agents, and those who are engaged in the breeding of horses, to the effect that this is going to stop the amount of betting and injure the breeding of horses, that I have become absolutely convinced that what we are likely to see is a greatly decreased amount of what we must all regard in a large community like this as bringing about distressful circumstances that we all deplore. I am clearly of the view that this tax is not only not going to encourage betting, but that it must of necessity decrease the amount of betting that takes place.
It is said, and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley says also, that the recognition of this vice is a great moral error upon the part of the State. Well, we have seen in other countries allied to ourselves the system of betting recognised and we have seen revenues derived for the State through the use of a totalisator. Is anybody going to say that our great Dominions have been demoralised by this tax? Is anybody going to tell me that our people abroad have become deteriorated in their character because the State has chosen to derive a revenue from a, totalisator which they have placed in their racing grounds? I am sure nobody is in a position to assert such an argument as that, and how is it going to be maintained against us that we are a people so prone to be deteriorated by such evidence of vice in our midst, that we are going to suffer a great moral calamity, such as has not occurred in any country which has adopted this system of drawing revenue for the State? On the contrary, as it seems to me, we are perfectly entitled to say that here is a practice which is one of the most blatant forms of luxury which the country exhibits, and that it is a thing that we are entitled to draw revenue from if people who are not compelled to use their money in this way choose to adopt this form of expenditure which many of us think is very unwise.
I agree with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will derive a very much greater revenue from this tax than he has estimated for. On the other hand, I am somewhat dubious as to the method which he is going to employ. I have been very much impressed during recent days when reading the objections which have been made by the racing fraternity to the form which this impost takes. I think there is much to be said for the argument which they use to the effect that a tax of 5 per cent. upon the amount of the stake is a very unwise way of raising revenue, and that in many ways it will defeat itself, and that it will be very difficult to collect. Let me take a simple example. Let me take the case in which a man backs a horse both ways and he gets odds of four to one where he backs it to win, and of even money where he backs it for a place. He puts on £100. [ Interruption. ] I am only taking an illustration. Let us say £1 if hon. Members like that better. The man puts £1 on a horse, which does not win but which gets a place. The result is that between him and the bookmaker the balance is even. There is no money to pass. But under the method of taxation of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer the bookmaker would be required to extract from his client a 5 per cent. tax on the £2. I am perfectly certain that in very many cases the bookmaker will entirely fail to extract that money. It does not seem to me that that is the best plan that can be devised. I think it would be much better, if I may venture to make a suggestion, to put a tax of 2½ per cent. upon the money won on the other side. In most cases the Chancellor of the Exchequer would get much more money by that system than by the other. At the same time, he would make his tax much more easy of collection. What would happen would be that if the bookmaker owed the client, he would deduct 2½ per cent. of what he sends him and transmit it to the Revenue. On the other hand, take the client who has to pay the bookmaker. He will transmit the full amount to the bookmaker, who will be required to deduct from the amount he receives 2½ per cent. for the Revenue. His books will show what he has made, and he will be compelled to produce them to the Government. I think the method I have suggested is a very much easier and surer method of collecting the revenue. I believe the Chancellor of the Exchequer will lose very greatly upon the other method, and he will not devise a scheme that is nearly so easy to work as the one which I have suggested. I believe, moreover, from what I read In the Press, that the method which I have described somewhat inadequately would commend itself much more to the people who have to work out this tax than that which the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself has devised.
With these observations I wish to say that I heartily support the Chancellor of the Exchequer in connection with this tax and I claim for myself that I am as anxious to preserve public morality as any Member in any part of this House. There is no monopoly of morals upon the benches opposite, and I am perfectly prepared to argue this question before any audience in the country. I maintain the same point of view as my right hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley has suggested, but at the same time I am not disguising from myself that the position in this country to-day is something very different from that which he would like to make it. So long as the country is what it is we have to face the facts. If my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer can raise revenue to anything like the amount he expects to derive from this tax, then I heartily support him. If the alternative is to be that we are to put, as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley has suggested, instead of this tax some additional Income Tax upon the already distressed industries of this country, then in my view the argument for this tax is overwhelming.
The right hon. Gentleman has dealt in turn with two large questions which are raised when we consider the imposition of a Betting Duty. The more important question is whether the adoption of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's proposal would not really involve a wholly changed view being taken up by the State towards the vice of betting. The second is a purely practical question as to whether the machinery outlined by these Clauses is likely to prove satisfactory. I would like to say one or two words upon each of those aspects, and I would like to take the more important one first. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Horne) has told us that when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer he looked into this matter closely and made an estimate of the produce of such a tax, which much exceeded the modest guess of the present Chancellor of the Exchequer. But none the less, the right hon. Gentleman when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer, preferred to impose an Income Tax of 5s. in the £ on the people of this country rather than impose a tax on betting.
On the contrary, I took 1s. off the Income Tax.
The Income Tax was 5s. in the £. The right hon. Gentleman reduced it to that, but he did not impose a Betting Duty. Did not the right hon. Gentleman reduce the Income Tax from 6s. to 5s.?
Yes, that is perfectly accurate.
Then I am perfectly accurate.
My right hon. Friend is making an assertion that I cannot allow to go unchallenged. I understood him to say that I impose a new Income Tax of 5s. in the £. On the contrary, I reduced the Income Tax by 1s.
I have not the slightest desire to do the right hon. Gentleman any injustice. My observation is a perfectly fair one. I am in, the judgment of the Committee when I say that I was affirming that when the right hon. Gentleman was so confident that this tax presented no difficulties, and would produce an even larger revenue than that which is now supposed, although he tells us that when he was at the Treasury he investigated it with very much care, he none the less, when selecting the taxes to be imposed, did not choose this one.
That was not my fault.
Let me take a second example. Let me take the Prime Minister himself. It is only six months ago that the present Prime Minister told this House that, when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer, this matter was gone into most exhaustively, and yet the present Prime Minister when he was at the Treasury came to the conclusion that "there are one or two objections which seem almost insurmountable." I am at least entitled to say to the Committee that the right hon. Gentlemen—two very competent Chancellors of the Exchequer—saw that there were very grave difficulties in the way of this proposal. It may be, of course, that the ingenuity of the right hon. Gentleman who is now at the Treasury has overcome all these obstacles, but before we adopt confidently that conclusion, I will invite the Committee to consider what really is involved.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Hillhead just now reminded the Committee of an observation which I made on the Second Reading, and which I stand by now, that the community in which we live is a community which is not so opposed to the principle of betting as that there is any probability of suppressing it altogether. I quite agree. Undoubtedly betting, although when it is indulged in to the extent to which many people indulge in it is a vice, is a very prevalent vice, and I quite agree that it is not possible that this House by any legislation could succeed in wiping that vice out. But does the right hon. Gentleman suppose that he is advancing an argument worthy of consideration when he says that therefore there cannot be any objection to the State receiving revenue by licensing thi3 practice, and by making a charge which will fall upon those who indulge in it? If you are going to use that argument about prevalent vices that you may see ministered to in our streets to-day, you will have to revise altogether your view of the relations between the State or Parliament and things which undoubtedly are not likely to stop, which may very well have their seat very deep in human nature, but which, none the less, are not practices by taxing which the State on that account should be willing to raise revenue. There may be people who take a different view; there are other countries which take a different view, but let us have this quite fair and square.
The issue which the right hon. Gentleman seeks to raise is this: He suggests that the case, in principle, for taxing betting is established because, he says, "Why, here is a practice, which I admit is or may be a serious evil, which has grave social consequences, which is, when carried to excess, not consistent with good living or morality, but since we cannot stamp it out, therefore, like sensible people let us set to work and tax it." I cannot believe that that argument has the slightest substance or worth at all. The real question, it seems to me—and, to a large extent, I thought the right hon. Gentleman was going to agree—is this: Is the adoption of a tax on betting to-day a reversal of the view which, as a high question of policy, the Legislature has taken towards betting? Is it in effect a State endorsement of the betting habit, which is calculated to have serious results upon the community, or is it not? I do not profess in these matters to take the extreme puritanical view. I do not regard a man as a sinner because, within his means—[An HON. MEMBER: "Ah!"]—and on occasions he makes a wager. I have never pretended, in this House or out of it, that I do, but that is not the question. The question is whether, if we adopt a proposal of this sort, we are not in effect reversing in a very serious way the whole attitude which the State has taken for a generation or two past in reference to betting. That seems to me to be the big question.
There has been a controversy across the Floor of the House between the late Chancellor of the Exchequer and the right hon. Gentleman as to whether you should speak of betting as being legal, or illegal, or non-legal. I do not care anything about the technicalities of the matter. The substance of it is this: Long ago in this country a bet, a wager, entered into between two parties and in due course lost by one and won by the other, was just as much a subject of legal enforcement in the Courts as any other contract. There was nothing whatever in the common law of this land to prevent a man issuing a writ for a bet any more than there is to prevent him issuing a writ for his rent. For a very long time that was the position, just as for a long time people allowed lotteries in this country and made no effort to discourage gaming, but the time came, some 70 or 80 years ago, when it was thought wise by this community to change the whole view which Parliament took of that sort of business, and by a series of Statutes we have in fact completely transformed the attitude which the State takes towards betting. I do not care whether or not you talk about a bet as legal; the truth of the matter is that a bet is outside the law in this sense, that nobody can appeal to the Law Courts to get himself any redress because he has won a bet and cannot collect it, and if a man gives a cheque or a negotiable instrument to pay his debt, there are cases where he can actually get the money back again. The Courts, guided by Parliament and the Legislature, entirely decline to regard themselves as authorised, on behalf of the State, to give any recognition to betting at all.
That is the position, and not only that, but when gaming houses sprang up and created a terrific evil in the early part of the last century, Parliament did what it could to stop that evil. It is true that the language which it used was not very fortunately chosen. You might have thought that if you legislated that nobody was to be allowed to open or to keep a house or an office or a place to which people could resort for the purpose of making bets, you had stopped betting, but, as everybody knows, unfortunately a way was found through that. It was decided that people who perambulate about a racecourse, and are to be discoursed with at the railings are not holding any such house, office or place, and it was decided that if you use a telegraph or telephone, you are not resorting to an office for the purpose of betting. I think it is a great pity that it was so decided, but in point of fact, so far as the intention of Parliament was concerned, there cannot be the slightest doubt that it has been the object of Parliament for the last half-century at least to do everything in its power in order to show that the law does not throw its approval and its shield over these transactions; and I proceed on the basis that that is the general view of sensible people to-day.
My right hon. Friend, in his speech, told us once at the beginning and once at the end that he deplored excessive betting, and I gathered that he will be gravely shocked, as a social reformer, if this tax is passed and it produces increasing revenue, and that he will be correspondingly delighted if the result of the tax is that less and less revenue is secured. If that is a fair account of the way in which we have been accustomed to look at this thing, surely the real question is whether the adoption of a Betting Duty is consistent with that attitude, or whether it is not really the abandonment of that attitude, and amounts really to State endorsement of the betting habit. I know it has been suggested that if you put a tax on betting, on ordinary economic principles you will tend to reduce the amount of betting there is. I doubt very much in this instance, however, if that will turn out to be so, and for this reason: The reason why betting is prevalent in our society is because it provides a pleasurable excitement. The reason why the ordinary man is not averse to having something on a horse from time to time is not because he is going to get ten to one instead of nine to one, but because he likes a flutter, and wants to back his fancy, and because here is an organisation which enables him to indulge in what to him may be the excitement of the bet.
I do not take up a superior position and reproach the poor fellow, but that is what he does it for, and if that is what he is doing it for, I do not believe that the fact that you succeed in imposing a tax which may have the result of giving him rather worse terms for his bet is going to discourage his betting at all. Indeed, the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for East Grinstead (Sir H. Cautley), in the speech he made in Committee on the Budget proposals, gave us strong testimony to the exactly opposite effect, because he told us, from his studies of this subject, that in every country in which a betting tax had been tried, the result had been a steadily increasing revenue. Then what becomes of the argument that, as a result of putting a tax on betting, you are going to reduce the size of this social evil? I do not want to do the hon. and learned Gentleman any injustice, and I think I am right in my statement. He said:
I know it is said that if you raise revenue by taxing drink, there is no reason why you should not raise revenue by taxing betting, but let me point out one or two distinctions. First of all, however, are you quite sure, is there any social reformer in this country who is quite sure, that if down to to-day there had never been any tax on liquor, and they none the less knew the injury which it did, social reformers would advocate putting a tax on it to-day? I doubt it very much. I doubt if there is a sincere social reformer in the country, if his hands were free to-day, without the long history of licensing legislation behind him, who would really say we were doing a moral thing, or a thing which was going to assist the advancement of the community, by starting to raise revenue from intoxicating drink and creating a vested interest in drink. But, as a matter of fact, the two things are very different; they are not on a par. The licensing system is a system by which a man who wants a licence to sell drink presents himself to a licensing bench of magistrates and establishes his credentials, his character; and not only that, but the decision as to whether or not he is to get a licence largely turns on the consideration as to whether the district is adequately supplied.
The right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, of course, dare not propose that in the case of betting. The result would be nothing sort of a perfect scandal. Fancy having a discussion before licensing magistrates as to whether or not a particular applicant for a bookmaker's licence was a person who was certified by some authority, a minister of the Gospel, or somebody, as a desirable character! Fancy discussing it! Fancy a bench of magistrates retiring, with a map of the district, to decide whether or not there was any betting shop within a reasonable distance of every workman's dwelling in the area! Of course, he cannot propose that, and, therefore, the right hon. Gentleman is perforce driven to this, that he is going to licence everybody. The more the merrier; the more people whom he can induce to apply for licences, the better he is pleased; the more this thing becomes popular, the more he likes it. Then what is the good, in these circumstances, of saying that this is not completely transforming the attitude which the State has hitherto taken towards the vice of betting? Of course it is. It does seem to me that these are considerations which do go a long way to show that this is a most undesirable new departure.
Secondly, and lastly, there is the question of the machinery proposed to be employed. Like the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, I do not doubt but that the tax will produce revenue. But this does appear to me—if hon. Members will kindly look at it—to be a very dubious proposal indeed. It is certainly a novel proposal. It differs fundamentally from the proposal which was put before the Betting Committee. It is admitted by the Chancellor of the Exchequer that this is a proposal that does not legalise anything which is unlawful now, and that it leaves the difference between one kind of betting and another exactly where it was before. Whether that is really a merit or not I am not at all certain. But let the Committee observe what is in it. We talk about this as if it were merely horse racing. Of course, it is nothing of the kind. It deals with betting in the widest sense. Anybody who look at the wording of the Bill will find that that is so. More extraordinary still, look at the way it is being worked out. Without going into detail, it is illustrated in Clause 17, Sub-section (2), where it says: anybody who holds himself out, even occasionally or on a single occasion, to take a bet, or willing to negotiate a bet on a race.
Is it not plain to everybody in the Committee that if you have to go to this length in order to make this new-fangled invention of the Chancellor's work, which differs from every limitation ever made in the field of betting, you are, as a matter of fact, getting into debatable boundaries, the limits of which it will be extremely difficult to define. I quite understand the Chancellor of the Exchequer cannot possibly mean that if a Member of the Labour party, and a Member of the Conservative party have a modest wager as to who will win the next by-election—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"]—that they should be arrested by the police without a warrant. Is it intended, in this astonishing instrument, this patent of the right hon. Gentleman to include not only the avowed operations of regular professional bookmaking, but every other person, even one who makes an occasional bet, which is accepted by anyone else, who holds himself out to accept a bet? In these circumstances I cannot believe that we will consider the machinery which the ingenuity of the right hon. Gentleman has created, will be found to be very satisfactory for the purpose.
Therefore I sum up my own view of it in this way: I have never said, and I am never going to eay, so long as I hold the views I hold now, that anybody who, on a festive occasion, ventures a modest sum of money, more by way of a joke than anything else, has committed a frightful sin. I do not believe it any more than I believe it of the man who drinks a glass of beer. But what I do say is that everybody who sincerely—and as the right hon. Gentleman opposite has just said—deplores the prevalence of the betting habit, realises that it is a terrible evil. As he says, it inflicts more injury even than excessive drinking; certainly it puts more temptation in the way of humble people who have to handle their employers' money—
Hear, hear!
And it does more to promote money lending than anything else of that sort and than drink itself. If that be true, I suggest it can be very plainly seen that to adopt the principle of this tax is going to reverse the whole policy of Parliament in reference to this subject, and that the particular machine which the ingenuity of the Chancellor of the Exchequer has devised, if examined in detail, will be found to work very oddly.
What has been the result of the policy that has been pursued so far? In 1853 Parliament decreed that betting houses and gaming houses should be suppressed. What was the effect of that? From that date onwards bookmakers sprang up, and, instead of having an office in which to carry on his business, the bookmaker has pervaded the streets of our towns and cities, and in the evidence that came before the Betting Committee, it was found that our streets of every big towns were infested by bookmakers. That is the result of the sort of principle hitherto adopted by Parliament. The right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) wishes it to be continued. Seeing this was not altogether successful Parliament in 1906 passed the Street Betting Act. That Act purported to suppress street betting by means of penalties put on in rising amounts. For the third offence, the penalty was enforceable by imprisonment. That was ineffective, as magistrates and police who gave evidence, said that the magistrates could not enforce it, or that the police could not enforce it, that our streets were still infested, and that we had to-day numbers of bookmakers—owing to the policy of Parliament—the number has been put at something like 50,000—carrying on their business in this country of ours and protected by an army of touts and out-lookers, their business being to warn the bookmakers when the police are coming, and so prevent them being apprehended for any breach of the law.
I am afraid that in many cases the police are in their pay. Certainly, they are subject to blackmail, and pay large sums. We have this army of bookmakers, who find this business so profitable that they will pay the penalties of their outlookers when they are arrested, and will provide —I believe fully in agreement between the bookmaker and some, I am afraid, of the police officers—a dummy to be arrested periodically so that the police may be ostensibly performing their duties, and provide a victim who is brought up before the magistrate once a month. So that he shall not be liable for a second offence, and the expenses of the particular bookmaker become more heavy than they ought to be, the man is moved on to another police district where he is not known. We find that is part of this elaborate system of guards or bookmakers' agents, who are advised, as part of their duty, to attend the police station or be in the Police Court where the police officers have a betting case, that they may get to know the police officers in a particular locality and give warning in time.
All this elaborate system is going on, with the result that the streets are infested, while already, in the earlier parts of the day, canvassing the houses of artisan people and the smaller houses of clerks and that sort of person, is going on, and there are others going around particular hotels where the servants are employed, and collecting betting slips, and doing their best to encourage people to bet. These people do not hesitate to bet with young women and young men. Pursuing our inquiries a little further, in one case we did find that one of these men's wives went to work with the elementary school children of from 10 to 14 years of age. This is the state of affairs which has been brought about by the policy hitherto adopted by Parliament, which the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley asks Parliament to continue.
Will it not be continued now under the present proposals? Is there anything to prevent it?
If the hon. Gentleman, who was a member of this Committee of which I was Chairman, had heard the speeches I have made previously he would know perfectly well that my own regret is that the Chancellor of the Exchequer does not go far enough in dealing with the whole question, to put it under control and prevent these horrible evils. I am perfectly certain, and I so stated in my draft report, that this habit is so prevalent that there is practically not a workship, a factory or a mine, or any place where men—and women also— congregate in large numbers in industry where one of them is not a betting agent collecting bets from the people in the factory or workshop and taking them to a bookmaker. I myself know of a man in a country village whose profession is that of a gravedigger—[An HON. MEMBER: "He wants something to cheer him up!"] —but whose substantial business is that of collecting bets in that country village. It is rather a large village, and he earns an income of from £4 to £8 a week as a bookmaker's agent, collecting bets and receiving his 10 per cent, commission.
I protest against the idea put forward by the right hon. and learned Member for Spen Valley and by the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer that it is a moral or right or proper course to leave this condition of affairs undealt with and make no attempt to remedy this evil. I think betting in excess is a great moral evil. Though I do not go as far as some people, I think it causes a good deal of suffering. It is no use exaggerating, however, and we took steps to ascertain whether it could be shown that crimes of dishonesty were, to a substantial degree, due to this betting habit. We had to take the indictable offences and summary offences in the lump, as there has lately been an alteration in the law respecting cases which go to Sessions and Assizes and those which are dealt with by the magistrates. But taking the two totals together we found that, although in the last 15 or 16 years there had been an enormous growth of betting, the actual number of these crimes had diminished. Therefore, it is a little exaggeration to say that betting is a substantial cause of crime.
This being the state of affairs, what is the only possible policy? If the evil be as bad as I think it is, and as the Free Church witnesses say it is—and it is on their evidence that I have made this statement—the logical course was to prohibit the whole thing, prohibit betting and prohibit racing. [ Interruption. ] An hon. Member agrees with me, but may I point out to him that not one single witness before this Committee, however extreme his views, suggested that such a course was possible—not one. On the contrary, every police officer and every other witness admitted that the betting habit was so prevalent that betting could not be prohibited. They all admitted that our Acts of Parliament had failed. We had to find some reason, if possible, why they had failed. My predilection my pre-formed opinion, was against any tax on betting, but on the mass of evidence we received I came to the conclusion that the reason why betting could not be prohibited was this. Before I come to the reason I ought to mention that police officers, one and all, from every part of the country, told us the same story, that betting was the only crime or offence in which the sympathy of the public was always with the offenders, and the hostility of the public invariably against the police. They said the public would do anything they could to hinder the police in the prosecution of their duty, which, I am bound to say, was shown in evidence to be thoroughly distasteful to the police. The police bet, the police do not regard betting as wrong or immoral, and the people who bet in the streets because they cannot bet anywhere else feel that there is an injustice towards the poor man in comparison with the rich man, who can bet to his heart's content. They feel, as nine out of ten people in this country feel, that there is nothing wrong or immoral in making a bet. If you once admit that, prohibition is impossible.
What is the second course? To leave it as it is? Does the hon. Lady who poses here as the champion of morality, does she, who always puts herself above everybody else when any question of vices or excesses is being considered—does she, or anybody else, suggest, that we should leave these matters, as to which the evidence is not contradicted, and as to which my statement is no exaggeration, exactly as they are?
Certainly not.
Then what does she propose to do? What was the only alternative proposition we had before us, made by Mr. Isaac Foot, who used to be a well-known Member of this House? The only suggestion was that we should prohibit newspapers from giving betting odds and prohibit tipsters from advertising in the newspapers. That was the only suggestion that we had—except such general grounds as more education, with which I entirely agree, and finding more healthy amusements for the mass of the people, with which I also entirely agree. The only constructive proposal we had was that we should blot out from the newspaper the news that the Noble Lady's mare had won the Oaks.
Why did not the Committee call someone like the man who won the Oaks this year? Why did they not ask his opinion? They never called anybody like that.
We had the Chairman of the Jockey Club.
That is a different thing.
He is the head of the whole racing world. We had as much evidence as we wished to hear; we had other evidence from the owners of race horses in various parts of the country. As long as racing is legal, and as long as betting is legal, it was proved—and it is admitted—that there will be enormous numbers of people taking an interest in racing. I think it is a delightful amusement. Racing is a matter of public interest, and as long as it is legal, what earthly right have you to prevent these people having news in the papers about it. That is one point. Let us take a second point. Owing to the large number of people who have grown up in racing, to the racing journalists and tipsters, and a large class of other persons in the racing world with whom I was brought into contact and about whom I could tell the Committee if time allowed—owing to all the news that is published, racing is now a comparatively clean sport, because everything is ferreted out and everything is known and published by these people. The present position of racing is completely different from what it was before 1853, when the bookmakers, who were only then beginning to have offices, had all sorts of fraudulent devices and fraudulent odds, which led to the troubles in those offices that caused their suppression. I have dealt with the only constructive suggestion that was made by the Free Church witnesses or by any of the other opponents.
I am sure the hon. and learned Gentleman does not wish to do any injustice to the subject. May I refer him to that part of the memorandum which says:
"As the terms of reference to your Committee were limited to the examination of the practicability and the desirabilty of a betting duty, the question of necessary legislative reforms in other directions and constructive proposals for dealing with an admitted social evil have not yet been fully examined, but the following suggestions are put forward as a rising directly out of the evidence, though not as affording a complete and final solution."
6.0 P.M.
That bears out exactly what I was telling this Committee. Not a single witness proposed to suppress the whole thing, or part of it. Prohibition being impossible, and it being impossible to leave things as they are, what else was there but to tax betting and control it unless there was some real moral objection to doing so? That this is practicable is not seriously denied, and it cannot be seriously denied, because the method we suggested is in daily working in nearly every part of the world except the United States of America. The method of raising money suggested by us, which has been mainly— at least, as to three parts—adopted by the Chancellor of the Exchequer was to tax credit bets made in offices. Office betting is perfectly legal and is going on in all our big towns. I fail altogether to understand the objection which has been taken by the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer and the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley, because at the present time anybody can open an office if he can pay the rent and get a room, and he can at once open a bookmaker's business, receiving bets by telegram or letter to any extent, and he can have the whole of London in which to do business. Notwithstanding this, we are asked to believe that we are going to do a moral injury and increase the chance of enlarging the number of people in this business because we are going to tax them, although at the present time they can do the whole thing for nothing. Is it not idle to contend that by doing this you are doing something which from a moral point of view is wrong? The conclusion we are asked to draw, that we are going to have more betting because you are going to charge these agents £10 or £20 when they can do the same business at the present time for nothing, is very absurd.
I will say a word or two about cash betting. This kind of betting is only legal when it is done on the racecourse —at any rate, that is the effect of a judgment given in the House of Lords. Betting on the racecourse for cash is perfectly legal, and it is practised on every race course. I am not quite sure whether this applies to America. A bookmaker who attends Ascot next week may make a book running into £2,000 or £3,000 a day. He gives tickets without a stamp for his bets. What moral injury is done if he goes next year and makes the very same book and gives tickets with a stamp on them? Is not this casuistry of the very worst kind? The only objection is a question of morality. Take a bookmaker, John Smith, and assume he is going to Ascot, and I hope some hon. Members opposite may go as well, and, if they do, I can give them a good horse; it is a fine animal. You receive from your bookmaker a numbered ticket, and we are told that there is nothing morally wrong in that. I know some people say that it is morally wrong, but I am now dealing with the relative moral wrong. You get your ticket and number for your 5s. bet. Under this Bill, if it is passed, next year when you make the same 5s. bet you will get the same sort of ticket, but it will have a threepenny stamp upon it. Therefore, the only difference would be that instead of getting a ticket without a stamp, as you would do this year, you would next year get a ticket with a stamp. Are we seriously asked to believe that in these two instances one is more morally wrong than the other?
We have been told that this Bill will increase a moral wrong, because the bookmaker will have a registered office, although people do not know that the bookmaker has a registered office when they do business with him on the racecourse. You bet with him now on credit, but, because he has been registered as a means of collecting the tax, it is argued that is going to make a great difference as to the morality of the transaction. I ask any hon. Member to tell the House what difference there is. In addition to the moral question, within the last few days a very violent attack has been opened mainly in a newspaper generally hostile to the present Government. We have been told that the tax which has been proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer is going to ruin racing and bookmakers, and will also ruin the race- horse owner. I should have thought those gentlemen who honestly have this great fear lest a moral wrong should be committeed would have jumped at an opportunity of hitting such a serious blow at this great moral vice of betting.
May I ask the Committee to consider that in every other civilised country except the United States taxes on betting exist, and they are collected in the same way as that which is proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I am sorry that my right hon. Friend the Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Home) is not present, because so far as his speech was directed to the difficulty of collecting the tax on the amount staked lie said that he would rather see a tax on winnings. May I inform him that in most of our Dominions the tax is on the amount staked, and there is no trouble in collecting it. May I also state that some of them have a tax not only on the amount staked but also a further tax on the amount won. The Dominions, the whole of the Australian Colonies, New Zealand, Tasmania, South Africa, Cape Colony, the Transvaal, Natal, India, Bengal, Canada, Ontario, France, Germany, Belgium—[An HON. MEMBER: "And Russia"]—we have no evidence of Russia—the figures will be found set out in the Appendices to the Report of the Betting Committee, and there hon. Members will find pages and pages showing the whole system of the taxation of betting in all those countries which I have mentioned.
I think I am right in stating that in no country is the tax less than 4 per cent. and it has run up in Germany to as high as 10 per cent. on the bets staked with the bookmaker and 16½ per cent. with the totalisator, and in not one of those countries which I have mentioned has racing suffered in the least by the tax, and in not one of them has the breeding of horses suffered from the sport of racing. The bookmakers have continued their business, and, perhaps with one exception, the return from the betting tax has shown a steady and a decided increase. I recognise that bookmakers and racehorse owners who depend on betting to eke out their business will all make the best case they can, and do everything they can to avoid this tax. I should be the last person to discourage racehorse breeding or racing, which I consider is the most desirable and interesting sport and provides a little excitement for thousands of people in this country. I said before, and I repeat now, that unfortunately my Committee had not time to consider this question more fully owing to the dissolution which came upon us so suddenly. I have been expressing my own personal views formed by me as a lawyer on the evidence placed before us, and I think I have given a fair representation of the evidence put before the Committee, whatever hon. Members may think of my final conclusion.
The Report of the Committee sets out the arguments and the whole of the facts, and I have not heard a single point put forward in this Debate that you will not find mentioned in that Report, which is a quasi-judicial Report. Personally, I am far more interested in the reformative part of this tax than I am interested in it as an agent for raising revenue. It is an attempt to do something to control the vice of excessive betting, and in this respect I regret that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has not gone the whole distance. I admire his tactics as a politician when I see the hostile forces brought up by those who claim to have an excessive desire to look after the morality of the country, and who are faced with this dilemma that you are going to leave this cursed thing in the position it has stood doing the injury which it has done, and you are going to vote against a Measure which at any rate has some chance of controlling the evil which you deplore, and not only control ling it but to some extent curtailing it. Betting, whatever may be said about it, is rightly stated in this Report to be a useless thing. It is a mug's game. It benefits no one but the bookmaker. It is carried out fairly in this country, I am thoroughly convinced, except that it is a very close corporation in the hands of the bookmakers, and the odds are not large enough. The profits taken out of it are very considerable—larger, I believe, than we found. The revenue is there. The matter is a pure luxury. It does not do good to a soul, and it does great injury to those who carry it to excess. And yet we are told by the moralists—
rose —
I regret that my hon. and gallant Friend is. not a moralist.
He is not an immoralist.
You ought to give way.
I admit that the last observation rather disconcerted me. We are told that this luxury, which is doing the injury that it is doing, which is a useless thing, should be continued. It is essentially a luxury, of no use, as I have shown, to anyone, and to my mind it fulfils, more than any other thing one can imagine, the conditions of a subject for taxation. That is to say, the man who practices it suffers nothing if he gives up his habit; no one need bet at all unless he or she wishes to do so; he or she would be better off, probably, mentally and in pocket, if they did not do it; it would not injure another soul if they gave up this practice. The habit is so rife in this country that there is at least £6,000,000 of revenue to be obtained from it, even on the part of the system that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is adopting, and, I believe, considerably more. At a time when we are hard pressed, when the Chancellor of the Exchequer and his predecessors, and right hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House also, have been looking in all directions to find some subject-matter from which could be raised a substantial sum of money, running into a few millions, we are told by the moralists, other than my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Ripon (Major Hills), that we are not to take advantage of this essential subject-matter for taxation, on account of this vague and shadowy idea that we are going to do a moral injury to the rest of our people. Would my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Ripon pick out 10 other representative Englishmen, in any class of life, who hold the same views as himself, and say that they are more moral people than any corresponding 10 people in the same class of life or in the same occupation in New South Wales, in South Africa, or in the other countries where betting has been taxed for many years? That cannot be asserted to be the case. What, then, becomes of his argument if we are not to avail ourselves of this source of revenue that is at our door and in our arms?
A great number of speeches have been made on this subject, and the legal and technical points have been very closely examined by those who are specially qualified to do so. I do not make any apology for describing myself as one who is in the position of trying, with God's help, to be a moralist, but I grant that it is exceedingly difficult to be a moralist in an institution like the House of Commons, the majority of which, of all parties, is intent upon endorsing that which is recognised on every hand as a national vice. I do not suppose one could have listened to a more pointed and effective condemnation of this vice than that which we have just heard from the hon. and learned Member for East Grinstead (Sir H. Cautley), who, as Chairman of the Committee which examined the situation, has told us of his contribution to its findings— which, I believe, were only carried by a majority of two in the Committee—and has stated to-day that that Report was presented as the result simply and solely of concentrating upon the witnesses who gave evidence. Whether that be so or not, the central situation to which, in my view, this Committee ought morally to direct its attention, is whether or not it is true that the result, which is generally well understood and was thoroughly testified to in that Committee, is that there is an increasing devastating effect upon the moral conditions of the people.
There is not the slightest doubt that during recent years a great momentum has been given to this vice. Figures have been given over and over again, and I have them here, as regards Australia and the various other countries where this policy which is now being adopted by the Chancellor of the Exchequer has been carried out, showing that there has been a steady increase in the practice of betting as a result of the State agreeing to exact taxation from this infamous vice. The result, as judged by the financial returns, has been everywhere a steady accentuation of the trouble. When we find men in the criminal dock testifying1 before the Judges of the land that a substantial part of their trouble has been due to this practice, then I submit that we are by this process deliberately proceeding to accentuate the trouble, to intensify the temptation, and to bring men, and women too—for it is increasing greatly among women—into that sort of predicament.
If the argument is that, as the rev. Canon Green puts it, this thing cannot be prohibited, and is growing steadily, are we also to say that we ought to recognise the prostitution of women by organised brothels. Are we to say that there again is an ingenius plan which might be adopted by a powerful Conservative Government to supplement its revenue? Are we to say that that is so because there is no use blinking at the situation, because it cannot be prohibited, and is taking place, not simply amongst those whom perhaps we should be inclined to think would be more likely, but among all classes and conditions of society, and money is being made out of it, as the cases which sometimes arise in the Courts prove? Much revenue is being derived from it, and that is all the argument that is presented here today for this betting and gambling business. It is said that here is a plan whereby you can get some revenue. Is that a dignified position for the Government of our country to take up? Is it not a sorrowful thing to contemplate, while we are having petitions from the Churches urging that here we are on a dangerous plane, not denying that the trouble is prevalent and flagrant, and asking you to hold your hand? It is reasonable to suggest that the financial resources of Great Britain are surely not so near a state of exhaustion that it is necessary to fasten upon this kind of business.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer says, "I am not looking to putting the world to rights." We could hot expect him to do so. We expected him to get a place in the Government, and he has got it. "I am not here," he says, "to put things right. I am not here to readjust errors and set the nation upon a path of morality. I am here to try and find revenue"; and he has estimated that he is going to have about £50,000,000 less from which to draw. Again, we have the proposal, from some who are opposed to this tax, that it is going to injure an industry, that the best horse blood of the country will not be available for the races. I would ask, is it not admitted by those who are experts on the great questions of racing and betting, which are linked up together, that, if you are going to hamper betting, your racing, which you say you prize so much, will hardly be in existence at all—there will be nothing doing? Is it not further the fact that you have the Royal Family associated with this, and does not that give colour to the conception that it is something which any man can engage upon—if he is on the racecourse, if he is among those who are reckoned as the cream of society? What a plight, when the Chancellor of the Exchequer says at the same time that he is going to see that the police are authorised to penalise this business in the streets of Dundee, with which he is so familiar.
Is it not an absolute scandal to those of us who have tried to stand for the moral position on this that the answer we get is, "Deal with those who are in high places. Go and get a grip of those who are carrying on this profligacy." Do you not have from time to time your authorities by order of the Government stepping in upon a bazaar or some charity organisation sale or some subscription sale got up for the widows and orphans, for whom the Chancellor of the Exchequer had such great consideration in the introduction of his widows' pensions, the widows not having got them yet? Many of them are waiting for it and protesting that they are not getting it. What do the police do? Only if someone makes a protest, if someone has an antagonism to anyone associated with the movement, do the police step in and stop it. What a tragedy! A mighty Conservative Government knows that these anomalies exist. The Chancellor himself puts it plainly. He says it is one law for the rich and another for the poor, but he is not going to deal with it.
You must face this honourably and squarely, and you have to face also the references and the deadly proofs which are put forward by those who have to do with the stock exchange, pointing out the mere glambling process that goes on there. Here is a proof of what I feel convinced of, that our nation is steadily on the decline iii regard to all these great questions. It is a very unfortunate fact which no doubt will be seized upon by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He will no doubt be dealing with some of these other phases of it. I conceive that many have hitherto been brought up in home circles where this idea was certainly discounted and the strongest moral injunction was laid down by the parents not to indulge in such practices. One of the first things I made reference to in this House was the question of the injustice that is done in this matter, which has been so explicitly laid down by the Chancellor even in the introducing of this supposed tax. He says, "There are all the anomalies," and he sketches them in a way very few can. He sketches the whole situation, and, having done so, is it not deplorable that, when other Members of the House are identified with putting up an argument from the moral standpoint, there is a scoff and a sneer cast in that direction?
No-one is going to claim that we have not all got our share of failing in one way or another, but surely we have the propensity to try to handle a thing that we know nationally is wrong. If we know it nationally to be wrong then, as representatives of the nation, we should try to give a lead to the nation. It is true the whole bent of the mass of the people is going in that direction, because they find a looseness and an easygoing attitude on the part of those who are their representatives. They are getting an indication that you cannot help it. You have to join the great majority, and to go as things will go with you. That is the most helpless position we could take. It would be far better to stand up to the thing straightforwardly. I grant it cannot be done by patchwork, because if we are to do it honestly we have got to face the question of our stock exchange selling warrants of 500 tons of something that does not exist. I have seen a man sitting in misery on a Sunday before a great blazing fire, in the winter months, wondering, when the telegram came in, whether he was up or down as regards his prospects in life; a man consumed with the conception that this was the be-all and end-all of life and you find people to-day getting swept down into this vortex of wretchedness.
I appeal to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to the Prime Minister and the Government, not only to recognise that it is a question of the Church endeavouring to put up its position. The Church of Scotland will probably be referred to by the Chancellor of the Exchequer as having come alongside him. That is an indication that there is not much likelihood of real union between the Church of Scotland and the United Free Church. I am presenting petitions against the taxation from United Free Churches in Dundee. A call has been made at times that the Church is not giving a lead. It is finding a difficulty in giving a lead. Every denomination ought to stand on our great moral issues straightforwardly, and we must of necessity get a grip of this thing in such a way as will help to rally the forces which are being called for an early conflict. Did we not declare a war for righteousness and for holiness? Here we are saying "This is very wicked and it ought not to be done," and the right Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) says, "I do not want to force you to put the position that a man is wrong because he does this, that and the other thing," and he classifies it alongside with drinking a glass of beer. Take it that way. You have the public house particularly looked after by the police and specially licensed. Here you are going to have a certificate granted for these betting houses. In 1853, it was decreed that the betting house was to go under. We are going back on what those before us realised was something that had to be stamped out. Is that the way in which the Government is going to face a great moral issue like this?
On the question of taxation as regards drink and betting, there is no doubt that those who have been identified with the temperance position will have very great difficulty in answering the argument. It is not true that your hands are not free. Your hands are perfectly free. You can certainly break that liquor traffic if you care, and if you are going to argue against betting you must stand up against the taxation of drink. To stand up against that, of course, means prohibition. So in the same way with betting. If you are going to tackle the business at all it must be an all-round business. The Government must say this thing is cutting in upon the moral interests of the nation. It is cheating people out of money that ought to go for the upkeep of their home circle. It is endangering the path of prosperity and the best interests of the nation at large. We ought to cut out the advertising of betting odds and everything of that kind in the newspapers. You have to stand firmly on every hand. We have seen your present system of handling business on other lines. It means an honourable, straightforward handling of the business, but it calls for something more than statesmen, something more than ordinary politicians. It calls for something more than going into a lobby because others are going in as well. It calls for character, for unswerving determination, for being prepared to sacrifice one's position. I know of only one way of doing it, and there is only one power that can uphold you in doing it. It is the support of Him on Whom we must rely and to Whom we must give an account of our stewardship in that great day.
I intervene in this Debate not to express any form of opposition to the taxation of betting, but to try to give what I hope will be thought a few reasonable criticisms of the particular form in which the Betting Duty has been presented. I find myself in disagreement with both parties who oppose a tax on betting. There are a certain number of people who say people who engage in betting, people who engage in the industry of racing or horse-breeding, cannot afford to pay any additional tax. I do not agree with that point of view, because I believe the people who are interested in racing and betting, which means the larger proportion of adults, are quite prepared to pay a tax, and I think a moderate and reasonable tax which is not greatly opposed by the industry would be accepted quite willingly by those who would have to pay it. I also find myself in complete disagreement with those who have advanced the moral plea in their objection to this or any tax on betting. I cannot see how a tax on betting can possibly in any shape or form increase betting. We have been told by the hon. and learned Member for East Grinstead (Sir H. Cautley) that in all foreign countries there is a heavy tax on betting and betting has increased as the result of the tax—perhaps since those taxes were imposed. However that may be, I do not believe that a tax on all wagers made in England could possibly increase the number or the size of those wagers. It seems to me that any tax imposed on betting on horse races will be paid by the backer. The bookmaker's profit, as we all know, is now not very large. I have heard it estimated at about 3 per cent. of his turnover, and I think that is probably right. But whether the bookmaker's profit is large or small, one can be certain that whatever tax is imposed will not be borne by him but will be handed on to his clients, and, as the right hon. Gentleman said when he first introduced these proposals, it will probably mean that the odds will be somewhat shortened.
I do not pretend to be an expert on betting or on racing, but I do know a little about it, and I probably know more than the right hon. Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden) who, in moving his Amendment, confessed that he knew nothing about it. I was more unlucky than he has been, because the first bet I ever made was on a horse named Hanodicap, in the 2,000 Guineas, 25 years ago, and it won at 33 to 1, which may possibly account for the fact that I have watched this pursuit with some interest ever since. Assuming that the tax is passed on to the backer and that prices are going to be short it stands to reason that the backer will have less money with which to bet. In that case, it means that there will be less money wagered during the year under the influence of this Duty than at present. Therefore, the argument that the imposition of this Duty will increase the volume of betting, entirely fails to convince me, and I think it will fail to convince the majority of hon. Members.
I want to put a few criticisms of the actual form of the duty. We are faced with the possibility of having a duty of 5 per cent. placed on every wager made on a horse race or on any other sort of contest. Horse racing is, of course, much the largest medium of Betting, and it will be sufficient if I deal with that alone. My small experience shows me—my figures have been corroborated by, many people with whom I have spoken—that the actual new money, which is the money available for taxation, is only about 5 per cent. of the total money staked. I have found that the loss during, say, a course of several days' betting of £5, probably means that I have staked during that time about £lC0. I believe that other people who bet far more than I do—I very seldom make a wager—and who bet on a larger scale regularly, will bear me out that over a year's period the actual losses or possible winnings do not amount to more than 5 per cent. of the total money that they have turned over during that period.
If these figures are correct, and they are borne out by the fact that bookmakers— so I am assured by accountants and others —make only 3 or 4 per cent. on their turnover, then 5 per cent. on every wager made means that the Treasury will take practically all the spare money available for betting. In that case, it will mean an enormous diminution in betting, and this tax will, in a sense, defeat itself. We have had an estimate of so-called legal betting of a turnover of £170,000,000 a year. I think probably it is three or four times that amount, and a tax of 2 per cent. on the turnover would succeed in getting for the Chancellor of the Exchequer the £5,000,000 or £6,000,000 which he has expressed his determination to get. I am certain that the people who bet in this country are capable of paying five million or six million pounds for the privilege, and are quite prepared to do it, but a duty of 5 per cent. will mean far more than that, and it will mean so much that it will defeat itself in the sense that it will very largely stop betting in this country.
There is another aspect of the question, and that is that when a tax is imposed which becomes extremely onerous or intolerable, the people who are called upon to pay it naturally make every effort to evade it, and amongst the people who are actively engaged in betting there are many extremely shrewd men who are well qualified to find any means of evasion. I think the methods of evading this duty will be very simple. I cannot see that there is anything to prevent a bookmaker when making a bet with his client of, say, £500, putting it down as £5, showing it in his books as £5 and keeping it as a bet of £5. If his client loses, he will be said to owe £5, but he will not be pressed to pay it until he has won something, or vice versa. By that method I am certain that the books could very easily be falsified, and will be. Another method of evasion will be possible in connection with the postal system of betting. The bookmakers can merely transfer their offices from London or Glasgow to, say, Ostend or Boulogne. It is as easy to send a letter to the Continent with a bet on the Derby as it is to send it to Oxford. A great deal of betting will be carried on in that way if this duty is persisted in, and it will be very difficult for the police or the Post Office authorities to detect the evasion.
I am not merely interested in betting, as such. I would not mind if it was held that I was never to make another bet with a bookmaker. I am interested in betting because I am interested in racing, and more especially in the breeding of thoroughbreds. I realise that racing is impossible without betting. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] Racing is absolutely impossible without betting. People will not go to see races unless they are allowed to bet on them. I realise also that the breeding of thoroughbreds is practically dependent upon the facilities for trying them on the racecourse. I will not say that I never make a bet, because in a small way, as the owner of racehorses, I naturally make a bet every time I run a horse. Every owner does.
Not every owner.
The Noble Lady says, "Not every owner." I must join issue with her, because when an owner enters a horse for a race he makes himself responsible for the wager. He is responsible for the stake he puts up against the stake of the other owners. If it is a plate instead of a sweepstake, he pays his subscription, as do the other owners, and they race for the pool. In addition to that, any owner who wins a race, in most races, takes money which is subscribed entirely by those who go to see his horse race, and, as to 90 per cent. of them at least, either to bet on his horse or to bet against it. Therefore, it would be mere hypocrisy on my part to say that I never bet. I do, incidentally, and in that respect I am obviously different from the Noble Lady, every now and then have a bet with a bookmaker, and the bookmaker usually gets my money. I hope, apart from the question of whether I am interested in betting or not, which has nothing to do with the case, that I have made some small impression on the right hon. Gentleman who is responsible for this proposed duty, and I appeal to him, as one who is interested above everything in the thoroughbred breeding part of the business, to use his customary elasticity of intellect and very seriously to consider before he deals what I am sure will be a very severe blow at an old-established, very important and very valuable industry in this country.
We have heard this afternoon a speech from the hon. and learned Member for East Grinstead (Sir H. Cautley), and, inasmuch as he was Chairman of the Committee of which I was a Member, I paid special interest to what he said. He has put the argument as completely as it could be put on behalf of those who think that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has not gone as far as he ought to go in this matter. I cannot conceive that very much more could be said in support of the point of view of those who are in favour of a betting duty á la France. It is fair to point out in regard to the Committee of which he and I were Members that it was appointed, not by the supporters of the party on this side, but it was nominated in the main of those who support the Government. It is, therefore, somewhat interesting to observe that though the majority of the Committee was composed of Conservative Members the majority of the Committee were against finding in favour of the desirability of a duty upon betting. If I remember rightly, even the practicability of it was decided upon by a very narrow majority. Those of us who were in the minority were somewhat hampered in our findings by the limitation of the terms of reference upon which we had to act. The hon. and learned Member for East Grinstead would not desire to do an injustice to anybody, but he would have done far better justice to my friend Mr. Isaac Foot if he had pointed out that Mr. Foot carefully directed our attention to the limited terms of reference upon which we were called upon to act. I am entitled to add that had those terms of reference not been so limited Mr. Foot and others of us on the minority side would have been very glad and would have been prepared to have outlined proposals for dealing with the evil in a far more comprehensive way than we felt able to do.
7.0 P.M.
This question of a Betting Duty has been discussed over and over again, and I think the point made by the right hon. and learned Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) has been made amply clear that if this Betting Duty receives the sanction of this House, as I suppose it will ultimately do, it will, in fact, regis- ter a very definite change in the attitude of the State towards the question of betting. I need not go further into the history of the case, because the hon. and learned Member for East Grinstead gave us a very succinct account of it in the preliminary paragraphs of his own Report; but it is well to inquire why it was that through the medium of the Act of 1845, the Betting Act of 1853, and a number of subsidiary Acts since then, the State has over a prolonged period taken up an attitude, if not of active hostility to betting, at least of implied suspicion concerning the practice of betting. It is clear from the history of betting in the pre-1845 days, as in the days subsequent to that, that on economic and social and moral grounds betting was deemed to be inimical to the best interests of the State. The question arises, now that we are presented with the new proposals: "Is there any change in the situation? Has betting undergone a transformation in character? Is it any less an economic or social or moral evil than it used to be?" I do not think we need go further than the draft Report of the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite. Let me remind him what he says. On page xli of his Report he says: character of betting from the standpoint of the inimical incidence to the State has undergone no sort of change whatsoever from the days when the Government of the day legislated against it. If betting remains as an economic, social, and moral evil—and really I have not heard the Chancellor nor my learned Friend opposite declare that it is not a moral evil—what is the attitude of the Chancellor of the Exchequer? He says, "Why are you quoting to me statements about the immorality of betting? What is the good of telling me of the economic waste? Why should I be interested in the social disaster involved in betting? I am out for revenue. It is money I want." And apparently be would like to add, "And I do not care how I get it, and from what source I get it; if I get my money, I shall be satisfied." If that be his attitude, may I ask him this? The right hon. Gentleman said quite specifically in the Debate when he introduced the betting proposals: "I am not looking for trouble; I am looking for revenue. I am not trying at this particular moment, or at this particular point to set the world to rights; I am trying to balance future Budgets." That is to say the dominating motive of the Chancellor is not to prevent economic waste or social disaster at all, but is money, the balancing of his Budget.
I never suggested or said for a moment that the moral aspect and the social aspect of betting were not matters we should bear in our minds. All I said was that, in presenting the Budget for the year, I was concerned with a proposition which avoided the moral issue, and dealt solely with the revenue.
Very good. I will take it in that way. If, therefore, for the purpose of providing revenue for himself, the right hon. Gentleman is not concerned with the economic waste or the moral disaster involved in these matters of taxation, let me ask him what objection would there be to legalising prostitution in this country? Hon. Members must face the facts that arise from the position. If they suggest that for the purpose of obtaining revenue they are entitled, in any given year, to overlook these economic or moral issues, merely for the sake of revenue, I ask him: Is there not an equally good case for the legalisation of prostitution, or throwing down the barriers and restrictions against drinking ad lib in this country, in order that, as a consequence, he can get as much money as necessary to balance his Budget. Why not organise State lotteries? Why not, indeed, remove all the barriers? Why not throw open all the flood gates, so that a river of polluted activity may flow freely in order that the right hon. Gentleman opposite may have a email aqueduct by which he himself can get the mill of the Treasury to turn. The answer surely is this. It is not merely a question of money. It must in some measure be a question of morality. It is not simply a question of getting bookmakers taxed. We have to concern ourselves in some measure with the national credit. I submit that the Chancellor of the Exchequer cannot, as Chancellor, wash his hands, like Pontius Pilate, of the whole business, and say, in public, "What have I to do with this thing; all I desire is money for the State."
Let me examine the proposals. The proposal is, as I understand it, to put a 5 per cent. duty upon all bets. It is a 5 per cent. duty upon the turnover. Other people far better acquainted with betting activities than I am now or can ever hope to be will be able to criticise that from the standpoint of its fairness or of its equality as compared with one form of activity or another. I would ask the Chancellor to tell us what guarantee there is that under this system the tax will not be frequently and constantly evaded in areas that are not open to the constant supervision of the police authorities. Take an ordinary club in London or elsewhere. What is there to prevent not the legal betting from being continued to any amount, but rather an embarking upon what is called illegal betting; that is to say, betting as between two individuals absolutely without knowledge of the authorities, and the Treasury officials in any way whatsoever; betting which in effect would be an entire evasion of the proposals of this Clause of the Bill. I believe that the person who is going to be authorised to embark upon this species of legal betting, has to pay, or to find somehow, an initial sum of £20. Twenty pounds is of course a negligible sum for men in certain classes of society, but for certain types of people who otherwise might be disposed to take offices and run their businesses in the ordinary approved and respectable way, £20 is a considerable sum. Is it not likely that, as there is to be a charge of £20 for the bookmaker's certificate and the entry certificate, those people will be deterred from entering the more respectable form of betting and will turn to the more illicit form, namely, street betting.
The hon. and learned Gentleman opposite knows that when we sat on that Committee evidence was adduced before us, week after week—I might almost say day after day—which proved conclusively that thousands of men in all types of industrial concerns—factories, workshops, mines, mills—were organising their businesses inside the factory and mill doors. What is there in this Bill to limit that? There is to be absolutely nothing to prevent that form of illicit betting still going on. It will go on increasingly because of the added fact that the backer, under the operation of this Clause, will be called upon to pay the extra tax. Is it not a fact that once you provide a certificate in this way you change entirely the point of view of the general mass of the people concerning the whole operation of betting. A man pays his £10 and gets his certificate. In regard to that, I would like to ask this further question: Is there any regulation in this Bill, or any hint of any regulation, that only people of approved character shall get a certificate? I look in vain for it in this Measure. Any crook can apply for this certificate, and there is nothing to prevent him getting it. Anybody can get it, whatever his personal character may be, and the only occasion when his personal character is inquired into is when, having once been found guilty of an offence, he applies again for his certificate. Then and only then is his character to be take into consideration. Suppose he gets his certificate—the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite says, What difference does that make? Surely it makes this difference, that John Smith will now be able to place a notice above his place of business, "John Smith, Licensed by the State as a Bookmaker"—"John Smith, Government Licensee." By adding these qualifications he invokes the prestige of the State in support of his particular business. Those of us who are objecting to this Betting Duty on principle have a right to object to the name of the State being associated with this type of activity. In the provision defining the words "betting premises"—I may be wrong here—there is, as far as I can see, absolutely nothing to prevent the type of person to whom attention was called before the Committee in 1923 from carrying on their businesses with a greater degree of respectability than was the case before. Barbers, hairdressers and small persons up and down the country, we were told, conduct an illicit betting business.
It is only illicit because it is in cash.
What is there to prevent hairdressers or any other small business man from applying for a certificate? And the moment he obtains it, it is possible for him to build up a business, partly by illicit betting and partly by the more legal form of betting, so that in his returns he can show a certain amount of legal receipts and satisfy the State, but he can still carry on the illicit section of his business from which he may derive the greater part of his profits, and there is no guarantee—
He can now.
That may be true, but under this particular Clause he will be able to do it far more successfully because he now possesses the certificate of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and as long as he shows the Treasury in any return he makes that he gets £150 or £200, and makes a return of it, he can make £600 of £700, the other £400 being made out of the illicit form of betting Is there any answer to that?
The fact that he is registered for the purpose of legal credit betting is no defence if he is convicted of illegal cash betting. The law operates against it, and he would suffer the existing penalties of the law for any infraction of it. He gets no sort of protection or assistance from the fact that he is permitted to carry on legal betting.
That is perfectly true, but the fact that he now possesses the entry certificate gives him a new prestige and a connection with people, who have extra confidence in him because he is now "John Smith, Government Licensee." The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in introducing this duty, said that one of the great troubles of the moment is that the law is unequally applied as between the poor and the rich, that there is one law for the rich and another for the poor. That is perfectly true, but it is also true, as was submitted to him last week by a member of the deputation which met him, that this Clause, this Bill, this duty, will not enable him to overcome that difficulty at all. As a matter of fact, it will aggravate it, because the people who will get the certificate will be mainly people who do business with the well-to-do section of the community and the persons who will not be certified will be the people who do business with the poorer section. And when the Chancellor of the Exchequer tells us that now there is to be a certification of bookmakers the police will be encouraged to be more insistent upon the application of the law than was the case before, so far from removing the sense of grievance it will rather aggravate and intensify it.
What becomes of your hairdressers who take these small bets?
That is the whole point I have been trying to make.
It is not the point you made at all.
I am sorry if I have not made myself clear. One of the most obvious vices of this system is that two kinds of betting will be winked at at the same time. There will be the legal form and the illegal form. May I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer this question? May I have his attention, and also his goodwill, for we all have not the same gift of speech as the Chancellor of the Exchequer. When you have these two forms of betting in existence the inevitable consequence will be that those who are taxed will say "why should we be taxed; why should the State pay far more attention to us and allow the vast reservoir of untaxed betting go untouched." We shall find, as a consequence of these proposals, that we have merely started on the job of formally recognising betting. The hon. and learned Member opposite is not going to be silent next year, or the year after, or five years hence. He will still be demanding that once the door has been slightly opened Parliament should be logical in its intentions and apply it to all forms of betting, illicit and otherwise. We shall have created a new demand, and I confess that once the principle has been conceded in any small degree I cannot see why it should not be conceded in a much larger degree, and why it should not be applied logically and completely to all forms of betting. What will be the consequence of that? It will be this. The moment we are confronted with a demand for the extension of legalised betting there will be a demand from the other side for the complete prohibition of betting, and when you begin to discuss the prohibition of a legalised form of betting a new question will arise as to what compensation we are going to give for the thing we have formally recognised.
You cannot create a vested interest in betting.
If we follow this step to its logical conclusion we shall be confronted with a demand for a formal recognition of betting in all its forms. If that is so we shall then have the contrary demand for the prohibition of all forms of betting, and the moment you come to discuss how to prohibit betting altogether the question will arise on what terms are you prepared to prohibit. We shall have just the same problem which confronted us in connection with the drink traffic. A vested interest will be created by our step to-day. I am afraid I have kept the Committee unduly long, but I want to put one more point to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and it is this. In the course of the interview last week with the deputation from the Free Churches, the Chancellor said: the balancing of his Budgets in the future? The Chancellor of the Exchequer knows that he is proposing to impose this duty upon the country in the teeth of the opposition of people who feel that their conscientious scruples are being violated.
The right hon. Gentleman is a fair minded debater, although he does interrupt when we are speaking, and he will admit that this betting duty would, in other circumstances have received far more public opposition than has been the case. The general strike intervened, and it has been impossible to mobilise public opinion as many would have liked to have done in opposition to this duty. I think he will concede this also, that as this duty is violently opposed by people they have a right to consult public opinion on it and a right to organise opposition to it. They have had no opportunity because of other circumstances intervening. Is it, therefore, too much to ask, for the sake of a loss of £1,500,000 this year, to put off its operation at least until we can discuss it next year, and in that way enable all schools of thought to have an opportunity of expressing their opinion formally and deliberately upon the proposal? If the Chancellor of the Exchequer requires money there are other means of getting it. To me it is almost painful to see the Chancellor of the Exchequer fail back upon this method of finding money for a great State. We have had to find £800,000,000 before, and we have found it without resorting to this method. I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer earnestly to reconsider this proposal, in the light of the economic waste that betting involves, in the light of the social menace which betting involves, in the light also of the terrible consequences involved in a sort of quasi-legal recognition of betting by the State.
I am quite aware that anyone arguing against the Betting Duty in this House has an uphill course in front of him. I am too old a Parliamentarian not to recognise the very strong support that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has for this tax. If I speak against it, it is not with the presumptuous thought that I might convert the, Chancellor of the Exchequer, but rather to put before the Committee certain views which seem to me conclusive against the tax. Before I do that, I want to say one word to my hon. and learned Friend the Member for East Grinstead (Sir H. Cautley). He asked me a question and did not allow me to answer him. I was willing to answer him but I was denied the ordinary opportunity. The question that he asked was this: "Did I think that I and nine others of this House who opposed the Betting Duty, were more moral than 10 men in some country that taxed betting?
That is not what I said. I did not use the words "taxed betting." What I asked was, were you and other nine ordinary Members of Parliament more moral because you live in a country where you are not taxed than 10 New Zealanders or Australians who live in a country where they are taxed?
I accept the correction, but it makes no difference whatever to my argument. I do not know whether my hon. and learned Friend imputes to me a frame of mind so self-righteous and odious that I should set myself above other people just because I object to a tax on betting? It is very far from my thoughts to do so. But I can set my hon. and learned Friend's mind at rest on one point. I do not think it wrong to bet. I very seldom go to a race meeting. I could count on my fingers the times that I have been to the races, and I have never been without betting. I shall have something to say in a minute about the Report of the Committee over which my hon. and learned Friend presided. He challenged me so directly that I think it well to take the first opportunity of putting him right. I object to the tax, first of all, because I am certain that if you tax betting, you must tax all betting, and that if you tax street betting you must legalise it, and that if you do that you will have a state of things which I think some of my hon. Friends have not quite foreseen. Next, I do not like this change of attitude on the part of the State towards betting; and, lastly, I think it is a very foolish thing for any political party to undertake, and I am very sorry that my political party has undertaken it.
All are agreed, I think, except my hon. and learned Friend—anyhow the Chancellor of the Exchequer feels strongly— that if the result of the tax was to legalise all betting, it would be a bad thing for the country. He has used words that are as strong as anybody. He objects to "new licensed betting houses invested with the full sanction of the law under the ægis of the State." I think that all speakers are agreed that the legalising of all betting is a thing that we should not like to contemplate. I turn now to the Report of the Select Committee on Betting. As we know, that Committee did not publish a final Report, but I understand that it accepted the Chairman's last Report.
No; they accepted the first 17 paragraphs.
Then all the Committee did was to accept my hon. and learned Friend's Report in preference to that of the late Member for Bodmin (Mr. I. Foot).
We merely discussed the Report and came to no decision on it. We passed one Resolution that a tax was practicable, and another that it was undesirable.
Let me deal with the draft Report of my hon. and learned Friend. He, with his astute and keen mind, came to a conclusion which I think is quite logical. He said:
"The crux is the street bookmaker and his extinction must be assured."
Then he goes on to say:
"Allow him to carry on his business in an office …. and then certain results follow …. and give all people reasonable means of betting in offices under Government control."
So my hon. and learned Friend goes the whole way, to a point that the Chancellor of the Exchequer deprecates. My hon. and learned Friend wants to see the law of betting changed and wants to see betting offices established under Government control. Let us turn to the Bill. I would like to ask the Financial Secretary to the Treasury a few questions. The Chancellor of the Exchequer in his speech made great play with the distinction between legal and illegal betting. He said that all previous schemes to tax betting had broken down because they involved taxation of all betting, and that his scheme succeeded because it distinguished between legal and illegal betting. When I come to the Bill I find no distinction at all between legal and illegal betting. All that the Bill says is that there shall be a duty charged on every bet made with a bookmaker, and when I turn to the definition and interpretation I find that
"A bookmaker means …. any person who carries on, whether occasionally or regularly, the business of receiving or negotiating bets."
So you have the position that any person who carries on the business of bookmaking can apply for a certificate under this Bill. What would happen, supposing that a street bookmaker were to come forward and ask for a certificate? Let it be marked that there is no sort of qualification of the man. I take it that you have to give the certificate to him if he asks for it. Sub-section (4) of Clause 15 says:
"Bookmakers' certificates …. shall be granted only on payment of the duty chargeable thereon."
Therefore, anybody can come forward and ask for a certificate. I ask my right hon. Friend in his reply to say why the distinction on which he insisted in his speech, between legal and illegal betting, is not carried out. I think the reason is this: As soon as you start to consider the question you are brought back to the position of my hon. and learned Friend, the Member for East Grinstead. There is no half-way house. You open the door to the street bookmaker, and the distinction is quite impossible. Suppose that you do grant a licence to your street bookmaker. Sub-section (4, b )says, "shall be granted," not "may be granted." Suppose that the man commits some offence. Offences are dealt with under Sub-section (3) of Clause 17, which says:
"Any Court before which a bookmaker is convicted of any offence under this Part of this Act or otherwise in connection with his business as a bookmaker, may order him to be disqualified for holding a bookmaker's certificate for such period as the Court may think fit, and any such certificate held by him shall, so long as the disqualification continues, be of no effect, and if any person applies for or obtains such a certificate while he is so disqualified he shall be liable to an excise penalty of one hundred pounds, and any certificate so obtained shall be of no effect."
Suppose that the bookmaker to whom you have issued a certificate refuses to pay, or does not carry on his business properly. Can you then deprive the man of a certi- ficate? What offence has he committed? All that he has done is that he has not paid a debt which the law says he need not pay. How can you deprive that man of a certificate for no legal offence? This is no mere quibble, and it is not a legal point. It shows that, once you start the licensing and regulation of bookmakers, you must go the whole way and legalise all sorts of betting and allow bets to be recoverable at law. Once you start taxing a man and compelling him to carry on his business in a certain way and charging him a revenue duty upon each bet that he has made, he will have to pay, and he will seek to get it back from his client. Assuming the client does not pay, then you tax the man and you will not allow him the ordinary remedy which any man has for getting back the tax. I am certain, as soon as you start the taxation of betting, firstly you will have to tax all betting, and you will have to start what my hon. and learned Friend the Member for East Grinstead called betting offices under Government control, and lastly, you will be obliged to legalise betting to the extent of enabling a man to recover a bet by law.
Neither of these things has happened wherever a tax on betting has been imposed. Bets cannot be sued for in any of the Colonies—the law is the same as here.
I am not sure that I am impressed by the analogy. The history of our law is quite different and you are reversing a process that has gone on for a good many years. If you reverse it you must take the consequences. A point of general importance and of general bearing in this case is that you have the two classes of bookmaker carrying on betting. You have one who bets according to law, and you have the man who is breaking the law. You are taxing the one, and allowing the other to go free. Even the Treasury and the Exchequer ought to show some element of justice. How can you tax a man who is doing his duty and keeping the law while you leave untaxed the man who is breaking the law? The Chancellor of the Exchequer referred to that point in his speech winding up the Debate on the Budget, and he made one of his brilliant comparisons. He compared the street bookmaker to the smuggler, and said nobody was prevented from putting on an import duty because of the existence of smuggling. Let us carry the analogy rather further. Supposing you catch a smuggler and fine him, you charge him double or treble the duty.
So we do in this case.
No, you impose certain penalties on him that are existing penalties. You do not say to him, "You must come in under the law, and pay the duty." I hope the Financial Secretary will deal with that matter when he replies. I have read this Clause very carefully, and I cannot find any such provision as is suggested. It is not a question merely of imposing an import duty on a trader. Here you are imposing a series of restrictions upon a bookmaker carrying on business in a legal way while you are leaving out the man who is breaking the law. That, I think, you cannot justify.
I do not want to deal with the question of racing. I heard with great pleasure the speech of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Chichester (Major Courtauld) who addressed the Committee for the first time, and who I am sure, made a favourable impression on all who heard him. I should like to say, however, that even the bookmaker is entitled to justice. I am told that the bookmaking business is one with a very big turnover for very email profits and small returns. A large number of bets may be taken, the whole turnover of the business may be big and yet the bookmaker's profit at the end of the year will be comparatively small.
There is no turnover at all. It is credit. How much money is handled except on settling day?
There is a turnover in the case of cash betting. All betting is not done on credit. If you tax the bookmaker on the stake wagered by the client on each bet, win or lose, I have been given certain figures which show that a duty of 5 per cent. of this kind on each transaction, would mean that the bookmakers' profits would disappear altogether. If that were found to be the case you would have to find some other way. I wish however to reinforce my main argument. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for East Grinstead wants to see betting offices established under Government control. That is perfectly logical.
I do not want to see them established except in so far as I am desirous of curtailing and controlling betting, and offices are necessary for that purpose.
May I give him an example. It is perfectly logical to say that free trade in drink would would decrease the consumption of drink. Free trade in drink has been tried, twice, certainly, in the history of this country, and has proved a most appalling failure. It has resulted in an orgy of ruin and debauchery, where any person who liked to do so could sell spirits without any control at all. Now, you are doing a parallel thing. You want to set up in every street in our towns betting shops. People must pass them every day in the week, and whatever feeling one may have about whether betting is right or wrong, does anyone want a series of betting shops set up like public houses in all our streets, established under the ægis of the law and under the control of the Government? I do not believe anybody wants it. I do not believe it is a possible thing to contemplate. It would be terrible if young men and women, on their way to and from work every day, should have to pass these places into which they might go to make bets with the knowledge that the betting would be legal. I am sure the Committee do not want that and the Chancellor does not want that, but he is heading straight for it. It must come.
My hon. and learned Friend the Member for East Grinstead told the Committee that he started by being opposed to the duty, but that he was convinced by evidence, and he -saw that the only conclusion to which one could come was that you must establish betting shops and legalise them, so that the whole population, who passed and repassed daily, could go in if they liked. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer will not listen to my words, I hope he will listen to my hon. and learned Friend. My hon. and learned Friend started not merely with an impartial mind but with a mind balanced against this proposal. He came down on the side of thinking that a duty on betting was practicable and proper, but he found that it carried with it certain conditions, one of these being that it would legalise all betting.
I do not think a moral issue should be mixed up with a tax. It is a very unfortunate thing to do so, and unless you have to do it I do not think you ought to do it. But when a tax opposes the moral feeling of a great many people, the Chancellor of the Exchequer ought to hesitate. I hope he will hesitate in this case. This is the first time the question has really been debated, and I hope that, even now, at the eleventh hour, the right hon. Gentleman may listen to arguments, which do not come only from the Opposition, in favour of postponing, at any rate for the present year, a duty which excites so much opposition and only gives him within the present year the small revenue of £1,500,000.
8.0 P.M.
The hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for East Grinstead (Sir Henry Cautley), who was Chairman of the Betting Duty Committee, gave an impression in his speech which was the minority view of that Committee, but certainly not the view of the majority. He summarised the whole of our proceedings in a memorandum, which was intended to become the Report of the Committee, but hon. Members ought to bear in mind that, although this is printed in the Report, it is only the opinion of the chairman, and must not be taken as representing the view of the majority. In fact, had we gone further, and had time to discuss it, I am sure that Report would never have appeared in the proceedings of that Committee. The hon. and learned Gentleman tells us that he weighed the evidence and came to a judicial conclusion, but the majority of the other members of the Committee differ from him in that conclusion. In the memorandum, on the question of the evil effects of betting, we find the following: largely from the conclusions. What I have quoted is the opinion of police officers who came before the Committee and gave us the benefit of their experience, and the majority of the Committee were satisfied that the betting evil was so extensive in this country that something would have to be done, at some time, to deal with it. Although there may appear to be doubt cast in regard to that evidence, I think I am right in saying that the majority of the Committee were certain that that was a fair statement of the evidence which the police officers gave before the Committee.
I think that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) stated the whole case against this proposal. We are departing from a tradition and embarking upon a new enterprise, and I think the House ought to stop to consider very seriously before it agrees to this proposal. I think I am right in saying that since 1808 there has been a feeling that betting, being an evil, should at least be discouraged. The State has taken that view. Then we come to 1853, when there was a great outcry in this country against the betting houses that were then in almost every street. The abuses which then existed were so enormous that Parliament passed the Act of 1853 abolishing the betting houses and making betting more or less illegal. From this point onwards we have merely tolerated betting.
There was a Committee set up in the House of Lords in 1902. They called evidence and went into the whole question and reported against the licensing of bookmakers and the legalising of betting. We heard nothing more about it unitl the Committee which was appointed in 1923. When you have appointed Committee after Committee, surely the House should take note of their recommendations. I go so far as to say that the House ought not to proceed in direct variance from the accumulated decisions of all these Committees. The Committee of 1923 went into the whole question very thoroughly. I had the pleasure of being a member of it, and we sat day after day and week after week listening to the evidence. We were almost unanimous in recommending to the House of Commons that this proposal was undesirable. I do not think that in the teeth of that evidence the Government should now force this tax upon the House of Commons and merely carry it by the force of their majority. It is quite certain that if we left it to a free vote of the House, it would not be carried, but would be rejected by a very large majority. We had evidence of that only two or three weeks ago, when one hon. Member sought to introduce a Bill to legalise betting, which was rejected by a very large majority. The same thing would happen to these proposals if they were left to a free vote. When you are introducing something so fundamental, I think we at least can ask that in the Division to-night the Whips ought to be taken off, and let us have a free expression of opinion.
I, for one, object to making the bookmaker a tax collector. I am not going to say that there is very much evil in making a bookmaker carry a licence, but I do say this is something contrary to all our ideas. The hon. Member for East Grinstead (Sir H. Cautley) was hardly complimentary to those who touched on the moral aspect of this question. He certainly did not help his argument by the tone of his remarks. We believe that betting is anti-social and is opposed to the moral qualities which are essential to the nation. I have been simply inundated with resolutions from Free Churchmen all over the country, and from religious and social organisations—as I am sure all other Members have—appealing to me to use every effort I can to prevent this thing going through. Surely the Government ought not to force such a thing in the teeth of the nation. I guarantee that a large percentage of the population are opposed to this innovation. It is such a departure and it has been rushed on the country. We have had no proper opportunity of discussing it until to-day, and I do want to appeal to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to give us a free vote anyhow and to let us have a free expression of opinion.
We have always prided ourselves on being financially strong, and upon our financial position in the world, and that we are becoming the chief nation financially. Surely there is something beneath the dignity of this House of Commons in seeking to get a few millions out of this form of taxation. It smacks of the lotteries of the mid-European States. It is certainly beneath the dignity of this country to seek to raise revenue out of a great evil, which we are told by the Committee is one of the chief sources of crime in this country. I should like to 6ee us get our revenue from sources which are at least above suspicion. When you are talking about a Finance Bill which provides over £800,000,000, a paltry sum like this Betting Duty revenue should certainly be found somewhere else. We should maintain the traditions of this country and rely on sound financial resources and not resort to a betting tax to keep this country going.
My words will be few to-night and they will deal only with one side of this subject. I must frankly confess I do not know how much this tax will bring in. I am quite content on matters of which I know nothing to rely on authority, and we are told on authority that it will bring in £6,000,000. It is said it may be difficult to collect. I do not know. I can quite trust to it that if it were difficult the Treasury officials would have said so long ago. They have passed it over, and I think our minds may be at rest about that.
I must also confess that I know nothing about horse racing. All I know is that, when I was at school a long time ago, a horse named "Hermit" won the Derby. Since then I know nothing about it. The side on which I look at this question is what has been called the moral side. I speak here as one who comes from a Puritan home, of a Nonconformist stock, and from that point of view I am enthusiastically in favour of this tax. I know it has been said. again and again, that the Churches and those who engage in religious and social work are solid against the tax. I do know something of what is done by people who are engaged in social and religious work in London and other parts of the country. It is merely a self-indulgence on my part to go among them and try to assist them in their work. I do it largely for this reason. Sometimes when one gets on in life, one does feel a little sad about the condition of the world, and I like to go and see these hard-working people engaged in social and religious work, and see how good they are, and to feel the world is not such a bad place. I have talked to them, and very many of them—I do not know whether it is the majority or not—were against this tax. Why, I have never been able to find out. I have had sheaves of literature on this matter, but I have never been able to find out. On the other hand, I have come across a good many others, and they are the kind of men who do a great deal of social work, such as retired civil servants who have been at work in India and know something about conditions there, and retired men who have given earnest work to the State as soldiers and others, and who are now devoting themselves to social and religious work. I find again and again, in asking the question, "Are you opposed to this tax?" They say, "No, we are not. We think it is a good and sensible tax." I have talked with schoolmasters responsible for the welfare of boys—and I have had something myself to do with young men—and I find many of them say right out, "We are in favour of this tax and see no moral grounds against it."
Sometimes in these matters I am reminded of something which was said many many years ago when there was a great stunt raised in the country against making contributions to voluntary schools. It was said by some that the Nonconformist conscience, forbade them to pay anything to voluntary schools through the rates. I remember one of the greatest preachers of our time, the finest preacher I ever remember, and who was a leader of the Nonconformists then saying to me: whatever for the proposal. I protest against that. My vote is always a free vote, and only last night I voted against a duty which I thought would do harm to industries. I vote according to what I believe in, if I know anything about the subject. If I do not know anything about a subject, of course, I should vote with my party. Here I am perfectly satisfied that this tax will have a low moral effect, and I would vote for it however little it brought in. It is an ideal tax, and a tax to be paid by people who can perfectly well afford to pay. The bookmaker can pay it. [AN HON. MEMBER: "And Income Tax!"] Income Tax is very hard on people who have large families, and I know, though they may have what appear to be good incomes, how difficult it is, and the self-denial required of fathers of large families in order to send their children to school or college, and I know how very much difficulty they find in paying Income Tax. But here is a tax entirely on a luxury. If you want a "flutter," enjoy it by all means, but if you do, you can afford to pay a tax on it.
When I bet, if I bet at all, it is to back my own opinion, and I may bet in order to save discussion, and if the man with whom I am arguing insists on his opinion and I insist on mine, I say: "Well then, I will bet you so much that I am right." How much more I should enjoy it, if I knew that he had, in addition to what he paid me, to pay something to the State! I get rather sick of hearing about conscience in this connection. The term "conscience," I confess, rather irritates me when I hear it used so often. When it comes to questions relating to the proper religious or ecclesiastical attitude to adopt, I go back to the great men, the great Puritans and others in the seventeenth century. There is no better authority on morals than George Herbert, who sums up the whole morality once for all time on the subject of gaming and betting when he says: bet, but how on earth that is any reason for suggesting that it is wrong to take a little money from people who indulge in that luxury, to meet the absolute necessities of the State, I have not been able to make out. I feel that on this matter it is only right that we who believe in them should keep up the old Puritan traditions, and I am not ashamed to confess that I look back with reverence and affection to the early Puritan days, which some people in these latter days are rather apt to despise. I shall support this tax heartily as one of the taxes that is good or its merits, as well as one that is likely to be productive.
To those who are opposing this tax, I would like to say that among those who are sometimes my political opponents, but who in other respects are my good friends, in the Nonconformist ranks that it often hurts when we hear those words "Nonconformist conscience" spoken of regularly with a sneer. It is a bitter thing for us to feel that that sneer is often deserved, and I hope that on this question we shall have heard the last of that term. Some of us who wish to keep up much of the old Puritan traditions, and the old way of looking at things, are going to vote, and vote heartily, for this proposal. I feel that there is a time coming when it may be necessary for all of us to keep up those Puritan traditions and to stand together, because that spirit will be needed to meet some of the difficulties that are now threatening our country. I mean the spirit that makes what an individual thinks right, the thing that he will do, and that he will not listen to any other authority, but be guided by what he thinks is the right course of action in every point of life, resisting, on the one side, the frivolity which is a mere following after pleasure, and resisting, on the other side, the weakness which bows to authority, instead of relying on the reason and, if I may use a bad word just once, the conscience of the individual.
I congratulate the hon. and learned Member for the English Universities (Sir A. Hopkinson) on his love for the old Puritans. I, too, love the old Puritans, and I have sat at the feet of some of them, but I never sneer at them, and I want to say this in regard to the hon. and learned Member's statement that he is willing to take a bet. If it were permissible for a Member of the House of Commons to take on a bet with another hon. Member, I would take on a bet with him that he would not discover anything in the teaching of the old Puritans, the old Puritans that made Britain great, to bolster up the argument that betting is a noble thing to do. I suppose we are at one on the Puritan spirit, but I am afraid I shall sink in the hon. and learned Member's estimation at once when I say that I own to a conscience. I do not hate the word "conscience" at all. Probably conscience makes cowards of many people, and that is why they do not like conscience dragged into a thing like this. It is on conscientious grounds that I am opposing this tax, and I should not get up to say, if it were not on conscientious grounds, that I will oppose, and bitterly oppose, it so far as my powers extend. I am not a Nonconformist. I am a member of the Established Church. [An HON. MEMBER: "Of Scotland!"] Yes, of course, of Scotland —the Established Church. I should have said the "Auld Kirk." It seems a very curious thing that all the great old Nonconformist preachers should be dragged out to bolster up such an argument as that placed before the Committee by the hon. and learned Member.
I am very sorry for one thing, to which the hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Scrymgeour) alluded to-day in the very noble speech which he delivered, and that is that my particular Church has seen fit in General Assembly to move in favour of this tax. One thing I do know, and that is that it does not add to her spiritual stature in the very least, and if I know anything about my countrymen at all, I know that the majority of our people will resent the attitude that those men took in Edinburgh on Tuesday of this week. I do not know whether the people in England are different from those in Scotland. [An HON. MEMBER: "They are!"] Then I do not know that it is for the better, but it seems from the observations of hon. and right hon. Members that people are dying to get this tax, are anxious to have it. I will venture to say this, that I would be willing to take a plebiscite of our people as to whether or not this tax should come into operation. I am sure that, although many of our people do bet, they know it is such a serious thing for our young life that they would vote for the suppression of all betting at all times. In this, as in some other things, I am entirely a prohibitionist.
I do not want to deal with the arguments of hon. Members who deprecate the abolition of racing and all the rest of it because it would ruin the blood-stock of the country; but what does the bloodstock of the country do for the working miner of the country? The horses may be noble animals, but that is not an argument that ought to be pressed too far. As far as I am personally concerned, I always say, and I want now to say, that I desire to identify myself with those who are opposing this tax. I am not ashamed to say what I do, nor do I take much note of the argument as to how much or how little the tax will bring in, or the difficulties or otherwise of the tax collection. I move up and down the country, and I know this, that there is no more paralysing thing in our country to-day than the betting propensities of many of our people. We are all anxious for peace and goodwill in the country. I know that those who would gladly get peace in the industrial world, and would do anything to bring that about, do not know nothing more demoralising a thing than betting, whether it is betting on the Turf or the Stock Exchange, or with the bookmaker who goes up and down the country seeking everybody whom he may devour like a certain person mentioned in Holy Writ.
Why is it that hon. Members are blind to all this tendency in our country? We are losing the old Puritanical spirit, and for this I am sorry. What is it leading to? How does it come about? I am afraid it is because the views of hon. Members of this House are looked to, because, after all, they are here to some extent to give a lead to the people. They suggest, and endeavour to prove, that after all, betting is not such a bad thing so long as it is moderately indulged in. How can they expect their constituents, men and women, to do anything else than to follow or to say, "Let us turn them out at the first opportunity." I am sure that in any constituency that I know, anyone in favour of betting would—I will not say not get a vote— but they would not get that vote-because they were in favour of a betting tax. I do not know anything more paralysing than betting, wherever it is indulged in, in the castle or in the cottage.
Many people are influenced by it, but these are not the things that build up the nation. If you want a real nation it is not by a Betting Duty that you are going to build it up. It is rather to be built upon what the hon. Member for Dundee was speaking of—righteousness itself. "It is righteousness that exalteth a nation." Some hon. Members know the conditions in many of our districts, where the bookmakers are to be found going about taking bets not only from men and women, but from little children—some of these with no shoes to their feet. Then hon. Members come to the House and say that, after all, betting is not such a bad thing. The Chancellor of the Exchequer comes and says, "We are in need of more money and that this is a fine way of getting it." I am old-fashioned enough to believe that money got in such a way will never ultimately prosper anyone. I do not believe it prospers any individual, and I am certain that it will never prosper the country.
For that reason I shall, with the greatest pleasure, go into the Lobby against this tax, and do everything I can, within the law, in future to prevent it becoming operative. It is one of the worst things that can come to a community or to a nation, this propensity for getting something for nothing. It may be all very well for hon. Members opposite who have plenty of money to spare to talk about having a "flutter," but that is not what the bookmakers exist for. They exist for taking money out of the pockets of the people, and people are foolish enough to think that they are going to take it out of the bookmakers. Therefore, it is with the greatest pleasure in life that I will go into the Lobby against this tax. I hope, even yet, that hon. Members on the other side will induce the Chancellor of the Exchequer to withdraw this tax. I trust that some of them will take their courage in both hands, as I would endeavour to do if any of my leaders on this side put forward such a tax, for I should vote against them. Let us see that there is some courage still about in matters of this sort.
The great injury this tax will do to the business of horse training and horse breeding was very ably dealt with by hon. Members, both in the Second Reading of the Finance Bill, and in to-day's discussion, and I shall not further cover the ground in that direction. In my view, the most practical speech we have had to-day was that delivered by the hon. Member for Chichester (Major Courtauld) who possesses a real knowledge of the Turf and who made an appeal to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to endeavour to review and, if possible, to modify the tax in the interests of the industry, so that it shall not be disastrously affected as at present seems likely to be the case. May I add my appeal as the Member for Epsom, and ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer further to consider the points which I believe have been put so clearly and fully before him by deputations of trainers and breeders and by the racing community generally, so that a very serious and even fatal blow should not be directed against a great business, the effect of which would be felt throughout the country. The racing community, as a whole, are not unaware of the needs of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to get money for the country, and is willing to assist him, but they suggest that there are other measures that can be adopted by which the racing community can be better dealt with, and by which their whole future will not be irretrievably injured.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer has said that he is introducing this duty purely for the purpose of securing revenue, and if that were the only result I should give it my whole-hearted support, but I feel that the consequences are much greater and much graver than, possibly, the Chancellor of the Exchequer imagines. I am bound to vote against the Government on this occasion and I do not think it fair to my party or myself to do so without stating clearly the reasons for my action. It is significant that we have heard a speech to-day from a former Chancellor of the Exchequer, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillhead (Sir It. Home), pointing out that although when he was Chancellor he was advised that a betting duty might produce a revenue of £18,000,000 he felt he could not avail himself of that source of revenue, in spite of it being a period when we required money as urgently as we do now. It is also significant that other Chancellors of the Exchequer have refused to tax betting. As the hon. and gallant Member for Ripon (Major Hills) said, anyone who opposes this tax will not be popular for the time being, because it is said that it is a luxury tax and is a very good method of securing additional revenue. Anyone who has taken the trouble to read the Report of the Committee presided over by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for East Grinstead (Sir H. Cautley), of which I was a member, cannot fail to realise that the picture he painted earlier in this Debate of the widespread misery and evil caused by street bookmakers shows us one of the gravest problems with which this country as to deal. The hon. and learned Gentleman said the number of street bookmakers was estimated to be 50,000. Personally, I am inclined to think that number is exaggerated, but at all events there are a very large number, and that Report repeatedly produces evidence from all sections of the community—chief constables, clergymen and other people entitled to speak with authority—that the street bookmaker cannot be suppressed because he is supplying the only means by which the poor man can bet. It was pointed out that the public, the police and the street bookmaker combine to break the law, and do this with the approval, almost, of all concerned.
Under the present scheme it is not proposed in any way to deal with the street bookmaker. The consequence will undoubtedly be that instead of reducing street bookmaking it will give a great stimulus to it, because although it is idle to suggest that people who have good credit will suddenly turn round and deal with cash bookmakers, or those who deal with cash bookmakers will deal with credit bookmakers, there will be a large intermediate class who will realise that there will be a great benefit in dealing with street bookmakers, inasmuch as they will save the tax. Another consequence will undoubtedly be that street bookmakers will be prosecuted not only as they are at the present time but prosecuted for not complying with the conditions laid down in these Regulations, and the penalties they will incur are extremely serious. The poor man who now bets, and who has just as much right to bet as the rich man and the man who can have credit facilities, will be constantly harried and will constantly find the man with whom he is betting prosecuted; and there will rise in this country such a feeling in regard to the unfairness of the law as between the street bookmaker and the credit bookmaker that sooner or later this Government or some future Government will have to deal with the question of street bookmakers and with the question of legalising betting. It is for that reason that I am anxious that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, even at the eleventh hour, should reconsider what I dare presume to suggest was a very hasty decision on his part—this endeavour to secure the inadequate sum of £1,500,000 by a proposal which is really revolutionary. So far, we have always turned our backs upon recognising gambling in any form in this country. An hon. Member who spoke just recently said he resented the suggestion that anyone should think the Puritans were against this duty, and said he was in favour of it. I thought it was the Puritanical spirit in England which had resolutely refused State recognition of gambling through lotteries or in any other form, and it is largely in consequence of this that the prestige of this country stands so much higher than the prestige of Continental countries which have been mentioned this evening as obtaining revenue from gambling.
If the Chancellor of the Exchequer insists upon going through with this legislation, at least he should put it upon a fair and equitable basis. Like the hon. Member for Chichester (Major Courtauld), who made such an eloquent speech, I do not profess to be unacquainted with horse racing. In a modest manner I own some horses, and I sometimes have a bet within my means; but that does not prevent me from giving the House the benefit of my experience, which is that this tax in its present form will not work because it is too high. If we put on a duty which is too high, we may be perfectly certain that bookmakers and backers will combine to defeat the revenue. The Chancellor of the Exchequer may not think this is easy, but I can assure him that I have already heard of several methods by which this duty will be most easily evaded, and it is not unreasonable that it should be evaded if we are going to make it so prohibitive that bookmakers will not be able to earn a decent living.
We have been told that in Continental countries a large amount is paid by way of taxation to the Government, but the countries which have been quoted this afternoon contribute a large amount to the race funds, and thereby make the expenses of the people who go racing so much the less. In France betting is practically confined to the racecourse. The result is that everybody has to go there and this increases the revenue of the racecourse authorities. In this country people bet away from the course, but unless the tax is made perfectly reasonable it will not succeed. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer insists, notwithstanding the widespread opposition to this principle, upon going through- with his scheme of betting taxation I humbly suggest that he should take the advice of such a body as the Jockey Club, which is exclusively responsible for the conduct of racing.
The Jockey Club is composed of gentlemen who go in for horse-breeding on a very big scale, and they know the importance of good blood-stock in this country. They also know a very large number of the people who are employed in the industry, and it is necessary for them to have some interest in racing in order to continue their occupation. Let the Chancellor of the Exchequer take advice from the Jockey Club as to what would be a fair tax to impose, and then he will not kill the goose that lays the golden eggs. Even at the eleventh hour I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer will realise the consequences of this as a revenue Measure, because if it is passed it must and will lead to the question of the legislation of betting. I am going to oppose this tax because I feel that if the Conservative party are going to bring in a Measure for the legalisation of betting it will be one of the worst things they have ever done.
I want to say at the outset that I do not quite share all the views expressed on these benches in regard to this question. One could not listen to the speeches made by the hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Scrymgeour) or the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. J. Brown) without feeling a certain pride in the views they have put forward. I do not agree with all they have said, but at least one can have nothing but a keen regard for the high sentiments which they have expressed. I have listened with much attention to the Debate to-day and on the last occasion, and I have heard the arguments for and against this tax. I cannot accept the view of my colleagues that the men who make bets in various forms are any more immoral than most of their colleagues, because I do not think that is the case.
I wish to oppose this tax because I think it is the duty of Members of Parliament to do all they can to prevent crime and not to do anything that will make more criminals. I know something about street betting and racecourse betting, and my own view is that, far from this tax tending to reduce crime, it is going to increase the number of criminals. With regard to bookmakers I want to be quite frank. I think they are as straight and honest as other people, but bookmakers have for a good many years been brought up as law breakers. In my own district it is quite common for men to carry on street betting, and they are often punished, and no one in the district thinks any the less of them because they have been caught and punished. I think the House of Commons ought to make every possible effort to prevent people becoming criminals, and I see in this Measure a step being taken that will tend rather to make criminals than to prevent crime.
I do not agree with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden) in his statement that these proposals will cause those who bet to have a preference for street betting, because I think the ordinary credit bettor will pay the tax. May I point out that the street bookmaker already pays in various ways far more than the tax that will be paid by the registered bookmaker. The street bookmaker in the first place has to pay a number of touts. I am acquainted with a number of bookmakers and they all vote for me. I believe that they also vote for some of my colleagues, but I know that most of them vote for me. Rightly or wrongly these men have chosen bookmaking as their calling. Every bookmaker has first of all his agent. He has in his employ a number of touts, one at this corner and one at that, and if hon. Members read the evidence submitted to the Committee they will see that this is one of the points with which they have dealt.
Not only does the bookmaker employ these touts, but we hear that some of them go to the length of bribing the police as well. Consequently the street bookmaker has all the expense of these touts to pay as well as other expenses. This tax is going to amount to 3d. on 5s. If the street bookmaker could get off with a tax of that kind he would consider that he had got off very leniently. All that will be accomplished by the proposals of the Chancellor of the Exchequer will simply be to equalise the expenses of the credit bookmaker with the street bookmaker, because the credit bookmaker has nothing like the expenses to meet as the street bookmaker. At the present time if the street bookmaker is caught he is fined under the Betting Act, but under this new provision he is not only going to be fined for betting, but in addition he will be charged, like a smuggler, for evading the tax, and he will be punished not only for betting in the street, but for the evasion of the tax as well.
What does that mean? It means that, if a person is too poor to go in for credit betting, and can only afford to bet in sixpences and shillings, he is going to be vindictively treated, treated in a different way from those who do credit betting. There is this further point. I have always been very critical of the liquor traffic; I am a non-drinker and a non-smoker, but I admit the vice of occasional betting. On the question of liquor, one cannot but be surprised at the extent of the vested interest. When one comes to Parliament, and I am sure all my colleagues will agree with me that it is the same in local government, one cannot but be amazed at the terrible vested interest which the liquor trade asserts among us. Every one among us, whether they hold my views or more moderate views, knows how questions of housing and questions of social reform are subject to whether you believe in reduced or increased taxation of drink. It does not matter whether you want to see a better or higher standard of life; it is a question whether you want to increase or lower the taxation on liquor. This vested interest cares nothing for those things, but utilises its power to put men in or out according to whether they believe in it or not.
When you start taxing betting, you are setting up another vested interest that will come to this House—the Financial Secretary says "No," but already I have heard some of them say: "Try, at least, if you can, and get the amount reduced from 5 per cent, to 2½ per cent., or get the amount altered in this way or that," and you will be faced with them as well as with the publicans pressing for lower taxation, regardless of social ills or needs in regard to housing and a hundred and one other things. I view that with great concern. I do not look upon betting among the population as being half so bad as some people would make out, but I view the possibility of pressure in this House by vested interests with the greatest alarm.
There is another point. At the present time, under the Finance Act, you are dealing only with betting houses in Great Britain, but, as hon. Members who follow betting know, one of the ways of evading the Act in the past has been for London offices to open offices in Glasgow, and you will see, for instance, Joe Lee, Limited, with an office in Glasgow and an office in London, the reason for that being that, with his office in Glasgow, he can do business that it would not be open for him to do from his office in London. This Measure does not cover Northern Ireland, and that is going to mean that in Northern Ireland, just a small distance across the water, you are going to have what is a terrible thing for Northern Ireland—you are going to have commission agents opening offices there and touting for business, and you will have bookmakers in this country opening offices there, without any fear of the law and without tax evasion, to cater for their clients just as well as they can do now.
9.0 P.M.
I regard that as very bad from the Northern Ireland point of view, and at least I would ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if he is going to tackle the problem, to tackle betting from start to finish. I do not think that any Member of the House of Commons can defend a law which at present pounces on a boiler-maker for putting on sixpense in the East End of Glasgow. If a man wants to put a shilling on a horse he is fined, and the bookmaker is fined, but, if he jumps over on to the other side of what we call the Iron Dyke and puts on £10, he is quite an honourable and respectable citizen. The law that punishes the poor man and allows the rich to escape cannot be defended by anyone. The problem ought to be faced by the Government as one of two issues. I think there is a very strong case for complete suppression, but I do not think you will ever get the working people to agree if you merely try to suppress street betting alone. If I may draw an analogy, we have local veto in Scotland, and I think one of the worst features of local veto is that public houses may be shut in one district and open in another. I am confident that in Scotland, if the whole question of the manufacture of drink were treated equally for both rich and poor, many people who drink would support us in a thorough-going fashion; and it is the same with regard to betting.
People look upon this proposal as class legislation, as merely punishing the poor and giving a privilege to the rich. I think the Government ought to make up their mind as to suppression on the one hand or legislating for all betting on the other. I think there is a good deal to be said for both sides, but nothing can be said for the present position which the Chancellor of the Exchequer is taking up by setting up a new vested interest and making criminals. Anyone who has been on a racecourse knows what happens. The most that I ever had on a horse was 2s. or 2s. 6d., but with hundreds of bets in about 10 minutes one can see how easy it is to evade the law. Anyone who has been on a racecourse knows that many times men bet with bookmakers whom they know without having any tickets, and, unless you are going to have a tremendous staff of police and inspectors, it seems to me that there will be great room for evasion. I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer will reconsider the whole question, and have a full inquiry into the pros and cons of it, and at least come to a conclusion either for wholesale suppression or for legislation to make it equal between the King and the humblest of his subjects.
May I first say how much I regret that the diminutive speculation of which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden) told us this afternoon was unsuccessful, and that he did not continue to pursue the line of life which he outlined to us, namely, that of becoming a successful commission agent, because I am certain that had he done so, and had he been supported by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Central Edinburgh (Mr. W. Graham), he would long ago, with his great ability, have been able to retire from that profession, and no doubt now would be sitting as a Tory Member on these benches. I equally believe that he would then be opposing the present tax. There was a lime when usury of any kind was considered to be both financially and morally wrong, and I have no doubt that a time may come when all kinds of betting, speculation on the Stock Exchange, buying of options, and so on, will be considered as wrong as usury was a few centuries ago. We have, however, to face the situation in the world as we find it to-day, and I believe that, wrong and horrible as it may be, there is in the majority of mankind to-day a desire to get something for nothing.
In regard to the Betting Duty there are two points of view. You can regard it from the point of view of finance or from the point of view of morals. From the finance point of view I regard it as a Clause in the Budget which I hope and trust will bring in a revenue of somewhere between £5,000,000 and £6,000,000 in a full year. I should much prefer that amount of revenue to be raised by a tax on betting than by an increase of however small an amount on the Income Tax, and I believe hon. Members opposite and their constituents would prefer that amount of money to be raised through a Betting Duty than through an additional penny, or whatever it may be on food, or tobacco. But what I am not so confident about is that the present form of the tax will bring in the revenue which it is hoped it will bring. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Billhead (Sir R. Horne) suggested that it would have been better to have a 2½ per cent. tax on profits. That, I believe, could be collected in regard to horse betting, but I believe it will be quite impossible to collect it on ready-money betting.
It may be that the Government this time next year will have to go to the racing community and say, "We wish to raise £6,000,000, or whatever the figure may be, out of racing. Will you tell us the most convenient and the best way we can do it?" because I am not at all sure—I have not read a quarter of the literature that has been sent to us all on this subject, but from what I have read, I am very doubtful indeed if the present method of administering the tax will bring in the revenue desired. As to the argument that this tax on the racing community will kill racing, and will destroy horse breeding, it is, to my mind, pure nonsense. In far smaller countries far larger sums of money are raised. In New Zealand, with its population of between 1,000,000 and 2,000,000, £500,000 a year is raised by a tax on betting, and in Queensland I think £600,000. It is a tax on the racing community. If a country with a population of 1,000,000 can raise a revenue of £600,000, I do not believe a tax which is framed so as to raise £6,000,000 in this country can possibly do any very serious injury to the racing community as a whole.
As regards the moral arguments against the tax, I believe sincerely there are many people who think that betting and speculating are morally and indefensibly wrong. But the people I cannot understand are those who believe in racing as a means of improving the breed of horses and who yet are opposed to this tax, because it seems to me to be perfectly obvious that without betting there would be, and there could be, no racing. I am the son of an owner who never bets on any occasion, but there is no reason for an owner, especially a successful owner, to bet. He goes to Newmarket and enters a yearling or a two-year-old at an expense of £500 or £5,000. That is a bet. He hopes ft will bring him in £20,000 or £30,000. He enters a horse for the Derby. That costs him £500. He stands to win not only £10,000 for the stakes, but it may be £100,000 if he is prepared to sell the horse. That is far better odds than any bookmaker gives. People who do not desire to bet need not do so, and this Clause need not affect them.
The only criticism which in my opinion should be considered is from those people who believe that betting is an evil, who do not buy shares on the Stock Exchange and sell them at a profit, and if they are really logical, they ought to be teetotalers as well, and they ought to disapprove of the revenue that is raised from the taxation of drink. I believe a great deal of the opposition to this tax is pure humbug and hypocrisy. I congratulate the Chancellor of the Exchequer on carrying out this tax on betting, which so many others have wanted to do but have been unable. He seems to have fallen between the angels on the one side who disapprove of betting, and the devils on the other side who get their livelihood out of it, but I believe he will receive the support of the average man in the street who is perhaps a little bit of an angel and a little bit of a devil. I prophesy that if the tax brings in the revenue which I hope and trust it will do, no future Government, from whatever part of the House it may come, will dare to dispense with it until every penny of taxation on food has been repealed.
:I get up to oppose this tax from every point of view, financial, political and moral. Of all the Chancellor's ugly ducklings this is the ugliest of the whole lot, and I see no chance of it ever getting handsomer as it grows old. A great many of us resent very much the Chancellor having brought in a tax which we look on as a moral issue in a Budget. He looks at it simply from the point of view of revenue. Even from that point of view it does not seem to me sound finance, because whatever is evil for the country cannot in the end be good for anything, and I do not believe there is a single person in the House who can say that gambling is good for the country. What is so intensely disappointing is that the Prime Minister, with his looking forward programme, has a Chancellor of the Exchequer who is looking back and doing what the States ceased to do a hundred years ago. Surely it is the duty of a strong Government like ours, if they are going to tackle a question like gambling, not to tackle it from the point of view of revenue, but from the point of whether it is good for the State morally. That they have not even attempted. We have heard the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillhead taunt the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden) and ask him what was his alternative. Every Member of the Front Bench knows it is a social evil, and that this tax is not trying to deal with it from that point of view in any way. Again they say you cannot deal with it because the country is not ready for it. I admit that the country is not ready to give up betting, but some day it will have to face the question from a social point of view.
What I object to so much about this is that the Chancellor has changed the whole attitude of the State towards betting. Here we have the Chancellor of the Exchequer looking back for a hundred years and letting the State take a different point of view from that which it has ever taken before. The Chancellor of the Exchequer knows perfectly well that he cannot stop here. He knows that, sooner or later, the Government will have to tax street betting. [HON. MKMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] Hon. Members say, "Hear, hear!" Do they think that the people of this country are going to stand having State betting houses at every corner, like there are post offices? If they think so, let them fight an election on it. The public conscience of this country will never for one moment stand it. Another reason why we object to this duty is that the public have not really had an opportunity of giving their views upon it. The proposition has been turned down by other Chancellors of the Exchequer; but on this occasion it was brought forward at the time of the strike, when people could not think about it. Now that public opinion has become mobilised, it is only right that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should give the country time to think about the matter, and if he does that he will have to change his mind on the subject. The Chancellor of the Exchequer does not mind changing.
I am taunted with being a hypocrite; but I would suggest that hon. Members should read the letter which was sent to the "Times" by a former Member of Parliament for Plymouth, and they will see that this proposed duty is threatening the best kind of racing. I am not looking at the matter from the point of view of racing. We have to think of the moral welfare of the women and the children of this country. That is the only point of view which the House of Commons can afford to take. I am not frightened when I am told that this may stop racing. There are more lamentable things in the world than stopping racing. If and when the State realises that racing is a danger to the State, it will stop racing. I do not mind being taunted as a hypocrite, but I am bitterly disappointed that our Government should have brought forward this proposal. Hon. Members and right hon. Members on the Front Bench know that the Cabinet is very much divided on this question. I am sorry that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should have made the Prime Minister do what he refused to do when he himself was Chancellor of the Exchequer.
The hon. and learned Member for East Grinstead (Sir H. Cautley), who was Chairman of the Committee, was once desperately against a Betting Duty. He has completely turned over. He knows as well as I do, and we all know, or we ought to know, the facts when we hear about what our great Colonies do. The Colonies have adopted an entirely different line. This proposal is not one to deal with betting; it is a proposal for revenue. In the Dominions they have faced the problem. In South Africa they do not allow a single betting advertisement. In Australia and Canada they have the totaliser. Whether we agree with that or not, at any rate our Dominions are taking a constructive point of view. There is nothing constructive in the point of view that is being taken by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It simply means creating a vested interest in what we all agree is an evil, and some day when we shall have to face the problem we shall be faced with this vested interest. We all know that if it was not for the vested interest in the drink trade we could face it and deal with it. [HON. MEMBERS: "Who knows it?"] We all know it. I am talking about the difficulty of dealing with these social problems when you have a very hard vested interest up against you. That is what the Government are doing now. They are creating a vested interest in this evil, and sooner or later when the country seeks to deal with the evil they will be up against this vested interest, and it will make reform much more difficult.
I wonder whether there has ever been such a political blunder as this. A great many of us look at this matter from the moral point of view. Looking at it from the political point of view, I would point out that the Prime Minister and many of us on this side wore returned by Nonconformist voters. The Liberals were terrified of Socialism, but they felt safe in the Prime Minister and backed him, believing in his Nonconformity. Could anything be more stupid than to get the whole of the organised religions up against him? Nothing in the world could be more stupid from the political point of view. It puts many of us in a very unfavourable position. Some people may say that it does not matter, because Nonconformity is asleep. Nonconformity may be asleep, because it has not been roused, but give it something to fight on and you will hear from it. Politically, morally, and financially we say that this proposal is unsound. One hon. Member has said that he could not understand how anybody connected with racehorses could say anything on this subject. I do not own racehorses. It is true that my husband does. [HON. MEMBERS: "Shame!"] He will do this: he will face up to the moral issue, and if he was really convinced—[An HON. MEMBER: "You cannot speak for him!"] Don't you be so certain about that. I ask hon. Members who are hesitating about this from the racing point of view to listen to what my husband wrote: Chancellor of the Exchequer, but the Prime Minister in his looking-forward policy. We have all to look forward and to say whether gambling is a national menace. We must realise that it is a menace. We have to look to the things that are menacing the State. The national expenditure of this country on drink is £315,000,000 a year. [ Interruption. ] Other hon. Members have discussed gambling and drink to-day; why should I be the only person who cannot refer to drink? Before the Committee it was stated that about £150,000,000 pass in gambling. Then we talk about national efficiency! My goodness! I am tired of shams. When are we going to face up to the things that are making for national inefficiency, and the things that are going to the very root of our moral and social life?
We heard a most brilliant and charming speech from the hon. Member for the Combined English Universities (Sir A. Hopkinson), but he had to go a long way back to get his facts. I am afraid he was not quite up to date in what I call the moral view about gambling. Let us face up to it. We on this side are fighting for all we are worth to get the markets of the world back. Are we as a Government to face things in a big way or in a pettifogging way in getting a million or half a million out of gambling?
Dollars or pounds?
The hon. Gentleman is very tiresome always after dinner. I do long for the Prime Minister to keep his moral hold which he has got on the country. I see in this a real weakening. Will the Chancellor of the Exchequer just for one year let us talk about the tax; let us go to our constituents and see what they think. He knows perfectly well it has been turned down twice. The Finanical Secretary knows perfectly well that the Government is not at one about it. Ask the Home Secretary what he feels? Ask the Solicitor-General what he feels? I implore him to put it off for one year, and then, if he wants to bring it forward, let him bring it forward as a constructive proposition to deal with betting as a social evil and not as a system of getting revenue out of a weakness, and what so far has been considered a vice. I do not consider that gambling is a sin any more than I think drinking is a sin. I say they both lead to sin. I know plenty of good people who do both. The Government must take the point of view of what is best for the State and simply not what is best for the revenue for the time being.
I have listened to a number of highly moral lectures this afternoon. I do not profess to be quite able to reach the high altitudes of moral rectitude that have been advanced from both sides of the Committee. I am quite prepared to-night to vote against this tax, not because I object to the raising of revenue from this particular source but because I believe the whole system under which we are living is based upon gambling from the beginning to the end. From the time we enter the cradle to the time we go to the grave life, under our present system, is a gamble. It is only a matter of accident whether you are a bookmaker or a layer on. [An HON. MEMBER: "Layer off!"] I mostly lay off. It is called an industry. Most industries are based upon some principle. Under present conditions everybody goes into it to get something for nothing, except a worker, who does the work. A lot of people who have spoken here this afternoon denounced betting on race horses, but they go down to the Library to scan the news about the Stock Exchange and see how they stand with their investments. They may know as much about the industries their money is in as a Connemara pig does about astronomy, but they believe they are on a safe thing. What is that but trying to get money for nothing? They are just as much gamblers as the workman in the East End of London who puts a shilling on a horse, and without the same reason. He thinks he may be able to get 10s. to buy the children a pair of boots, or perhaps buy a drink. 75 per cent. of what he pays for his glass of beer goes to you in taxation. [An HON. MEMBER: "And the beer!"] The beer goes where nobody else can find it. It is not taxable at that stage.
I want, if I can, just to realise the position of the different kinds of people who gamble. As far as horse racing is concerned, all of us who are acquainted with the facts of the situation know there is not a factory along the riverside, particularly, in so far as I know it, down in the largest dock area in the East End of London, where the bookmakers have not got their representatives. The street bookmaker has got his touts in every factory, in every dock and on almost every ship. This man himself may be able to pay out, but he does not take the risk in the great degree. What is the position of the man who is called a tout or a bookmaker's runner? He may be a man out of work; he may be a foreman or a ganger in a big factory or shop. This man might say to him, "Well, now Bill, if you will take this job on I will give you 10 per cent, commission on every shilling you bring in, and in addition, if you are arrested or fined I shall see you through." That is the common system. They have got an association. If the men go to prison their wives get their wages all the time they are in. [An HON. MEMBER: "It is a trade union!"] Yes, it is a trade union, and you belong to one of the same kind. There is the Federation of British Industries that guarantees something to those who happen to be involved in trade disputes. In so far as they are concerned, they are simply acting as a protective organisation. What steps can you take under this scheme of taxation to deal with that problem? I have backed a horse once or twice in my life, and I do not think I am a criminal for having done so. What I protest against is, that if I go into an office and put a bet on, or get on a telephone and put a bet on I am a gentleman; but if I go and meet a friend of mine who happens to be a bookmaker's runner and put two bob on a particular race, I am a criminal. The Chancellor of the Exchequer wants money. So do I. But that is not the issue. You are differentiating between two forms of gambling. It is the same principle and a different method of carrying it into effect. The man who can open an office, and I know some of them who have got offices—they are perfectly respectable members of society, some of them are even candidates for Parliament, and, I believe, some of them are Members. [HON. MEMBERS: "Name?"] I cannot prove all my beliefs. I want to remind hon. Members that the few million pounds that might be raised by this duty is not the real issue. The real issue is whether this is the way to deal with a great social evil. That is why I am going to vote against this Betting Duty. I am prepared to recognise that betting is a social evil, like drinking, when carried to excess. Everything is evil when carried to an excess; even long speeches in this House are an evil.
You are supposed to be dealing with a great social evil, and you say to the people who are mainly responsible for gambling that they are all right so long as they pay so much to the State, but those who pay nothing to the State are all wrong—they are the orphans of the storm—the State will have nothing to do with them. The time has arrived when the whole question should be dealt with by legislation. All gambling, from the top to the bottom, should be dealt with; the people who gamble on the Manchester and Liverpool cotton exchanges, not on horses in a race, but on cotton, which is not yet grown. Let us deal with those who gamble on the means of living of the people, and if we do so, then I am prepared to see that we wipe out, as far as we are able, the whole principle of somebody trying to get something for nothing. There would not be many Conservative Members in this House if that principle of society was abolished. I do not want to see them getting nothing for something. I want to see them get something for what they do. I do not live in the cloud's, I live in Silvertown, and I see the touts going round, not only in factories and workshops, and the docks, but making a door to door collection of the threepenny bits, and I am anxious to see it eliminated. I am prepared to assist in the abolition of gambling, but I do not want to see any differentiation between gamblers, and that a man in a top hat is a respectable citizen when he gambles, and the man in a cloth cap is looked upon as a potential criminal when he put his Is. on a horse.
As the last speaker has said, there is nothing more chaotic than the state of the betting laws of this country. One would think that the man who indulges in a cash betting transaction, who has the money in his pocket, who is in a position to estimate his liabilities and who actually has the money with which to pay his debt, was the person on whom the law would look much more leniently than the man who deals in credit betting, who may not have the money to meet his debts and is forced into some wrongful course of action in order to find the money to pay his bookmaker; and does so at the expense of his grocer, his tailor, and his baker. That is the kind of betting that would be discouraged by the law. I have seen it stated in several bankruptcy examinations that the bookmaker's debt must be paid as it is a debt of honour, but the ordinary creditor only may be paid. It is an astonishing thing how this bookmaking business is carried on. It is not illegal, except in the sense of street bookmaking, in so far as the law forbids it. It only declines to recognise it, and when you say there is legal and illegal bookmaking, it is a misnomer. I join issue with the hon. and learned Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) as to the real view taken by the law on this subject. In the early days in the year 1799 it was stated in the Scottish Courts that it was only the wealthy who bet and when they quarrelled with one another and took actions in the Courts, the Judges said they were not going to be troubled with these cases and they turned them down. They said that the Courts were established for serious business, not for sponsiones ludicrae, idle engagements, like money lost at cards, betting or wagering, and the like. Going as far back as 1621 we find the Scottish Courts dealing with this kind of case, and providing— any money, and I do not want to take the other fellow's money and give nothing for it.
I want to join issue with hon. Members opposite in regard to what they call gambling on the Stock Exchange. There is no gambling on the Stock Exchange. Gambling is a competition between A and B, the backer and the bookmaker. There is no competition between the stockbroker and his client—none whatever. In my long career only once did I succeed in establishing a gaming debt, and that was when a stockbroker had sold his own stock to his client and was suing him for the difference. It was a gaming debt, and the broker could not recover. In stock-broking there are real transactions for real goods and commodities, and there is no gambling element. That is what keeps violent fluctuations from happening. There is no breaking of contracts. It is a serious business. I believe that racing is in itself an amusing thing. I was only once on the outskirts of a racecourse, and I did not go in because I did not like the look of the crowd. The wonderful thing is how this business has been able to carry on all these years without the protection of the law, and how extraordinarily upright and honourable are the bookmakers who are engaged in this occupation, how carefully they keep their contracts, how regularly they pay, street bookmakers as well as others. It is wonderful that that class of man should keep contracts, for, after all, the sacred obligation of contracts is the foundation of all civilisation. Therefore, I do not think that it comes very well from Labour Members to give us lessons on morality when they were largely responsible for inducing decent working men to break their contracts with the employers by joining in the recent general strike.
I demur to this Bill because it seems to me to be wrong for the State to give a blessing to a vice which carries devastation into a great many homes. I have been told by large employers of labour, as I said when speaking on the Budget, that for every one person's home that is ruined by over-indulgence in drink, there are 10 homes that are ruined by gambling. There is this to be said for the drunkard, that the man pays for a commodity and gets something for his money, whereas the gambler gets nothing at all. The danger of the proposed tax is that it will give recognition to betting. Why license bookmakers at all? There is another way for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to raise the money. An hon. Member told us in the Budget Debate that there were about 30,000 bookmakers in the country. Instead of licensing them, all that is necessary is to fine them. Get the bookmaker up before the Court once a year and say to him, "Have you been practicing as a bookmaker for the past year?" "Yes." "Well then, we fine you £500." When the next year comes round you can fine him again. You would get your revenue in that way and you would not have to pass the blessing of the State upon betting. You would also satisfy the consciences of a large number of people if you did not license the bookmaker and only fined him. That is what is done to some extent in our large towns in the case of street bookmakers. Periodically they are fined £10, £20 or £30, and some of them go and make arrangements that they are to be prosecuted in a particular week.
This proposed tax is a clumsy tax. It is a wrong tax. It will lead to enormous complication and trouble in collection. When you find that both sides are against it, you cannot help coming to the conclusion that even the Chancellor of the Exchequer must be wrong. Think of the complexity and the difficulty of collection in the case of bets which are put on at the last moment. These things will make the tax totally unworkable, and I do not believe that the Exchequer will get the revenue that has been estimated. It is a proposal which mixes up the State and the community with a thing which it has been our practice hitherto to ignore. I wish that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would withdraw the proposal, or, if he must have the money out of these gentlemen, find some way of getting it that is less liable to soil the hands of the State with a practice which is not for the benefit of the community. I am not blaming the working man for betting. His is a dull life and he has a natural desire for some excitement. But this is the wrong sort of excitement. The working man spends an immense proportion of his money on it. It is not fitting that a great Parliament should encourage any part of the process.
There has been a good deal of discussion as to whether this tax will increase or diminish betting. A priori we should argue that it would diminish betting. We have opposed tariffs and the Tea Duty because we say that by putting on a tax you diminish consumption. That would be the normal result of taxing betting. As a matter of fact, there are many reasons why you do not diminish betting by taxing it, but entrench it and give it a fuller grip on the country. I would quote the words of the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself when speaking on the Budget. His words were: versus Dunn, it was agreed that a racecourse was a place within the meaning of that Act, and, therefore, that betting was illegal. Two years afterwards, in the collusive case of Powell versus Kempton Park, it was decreed by Lord Halsbury that a place was not a place unless the user had sole use. It is on that precarious finding that any legality attaches to betting on the racecourse to-day. In the action which the Chancellor is taking he is putting the State's imprimatur on that precarious foundation of law—on this legal loophole, for it is nothing more, under which betting on racecourses is legal to-day.
10.0 P.M.
You are not only going to license the bookmaker but also his premises, and yet those premises, under the present law, cannot be places of public resort. Will there not be strong reason to say, that if the bookmaker has paid £10 a year for his premises, they must become places of public resort where credit betting will be legal? At present betting debts are not recoverable, but this situation will arise. A bookmaker will have paid the tax on a stake which he may never recover. The backer may lose, and never pay up. Will the bookmaker not have a strong lever to recover the sum which he is out of pocket in paying the tax, when nothing has come in. It has been admitted, and almost universally declared by the supporters of the Government that the logical result of this action will be, in the end, to legalise street betting. It has been said that under this proposal you can pursue the street bookmaker in the future while you recognise the credit bookmaker. I should like to recall words used by the present Foreign Secretary when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer in 1919 and when the question of premium bonds was before this House. He said in regard to the proposal that you can give prestige to credit betting and still hunt down the street bookmaker: as in 1904 you gave a vested interest to the publicans of this country, and allowed them compensation, mainly on the ground that they were licensed, and their premises licensed, so you are going to be in exactly the same position in this case. I advance the proposition—and I will support it by quotations from two statesmen—that no country is ever the richer for any revenue it draws from a tainted source. The first statesman I quote is Mr. Gladstone. His words are applicable to betting, as much as to the liquor question, with which he was dealing, when he said: (Sir R. Home) said in effect, "It exists, it is impossible to eradicate it; therefore, we must succumb to it, and draw some revenue from it." We are to be like Macbeth:
I am afraid the hon. Gentleman is getting rather far from the question.
I bow to your decision, and I close simply by saying that I had intended to say in that regard that in the Labour commonwealth we have no room for non-producers and parasites on society, and also this, that in the social commonwealth which we seek, I for one at least, and I believe all on these benches, stand for the socialisation of public utilities and death to public-iniquities.
Everyone will respect the opinions which have been expressed so forcibly, and sustained with such wealth of literary allusion, by the hon. Member for Motherwell (Mr. Barr), and, for my part, I certainly shall use no language or make any debating suggestion which in the slightest degree would show myself wanting in proper regard for feelings which I am convinced are sincere and which, certainly, have been expressed with ability and power. But I believe that if any stranger had suddenly intruded upon our Debates to-night and had listened to the concluding portion of the speech of the hon. Gentleman without having previously studied the Order Paper or the Measure actually under discussion by the House, he would have been led to the conclusion that, after this country had for generations been completely free from anything in the nature of the vice of gambling, the Government, sunk in the deepest depths of iniquity, was now coming forward of its own proper Motion, for the first time in the history of the country, to propose a large subvention out of the money of the taxpayer in order to promote and expand the practice of gambling.
That is not quite the issue with which we have to deal. [HON. MEMBERS: "Nobody ever said so!"] I think it would have been a fair conclusion to draw. I have no reason to be dissatisfied or disheartened with the course which the discussions upon this admittedly controversial topic has taken. When I look back upon the long course of the examination of proposals for the taxation of betting, the numbers of eminent holders of my office who have looked longingly on the project and touched it and thought about it, and put it by, and when I also reflect on the admittedly enormous difficulty of measuring beforehand what public opinion on a subject of this kind will be, and what its manifestation will be and where its emphasis will be thrown, I must say I feel it is justifiable not only to be satisfied, but even to rejoice, that after this matter has now been for some two and a-half months before the country, there should be such a very steady and undoubted preponderance of opinion in favour of the tax. [An HON. MEMBER: "What about North Hammersmith?"] It was the view of the party opposite that the North Hammersmith election was entirely won on the admiration of the people of North Hammer-smith for the general strike. When a by-election is won or lost, one always says it was won or lost because of some particular item in the whole field of politics about which he has a particularly strong opinion.
We have, in the course of this Debate, received and been witness of several very important admissions, valuable admissions, from the principal authoritative representatives of the Opposition party opposite and of the Opposition parties below the Gangway. When the Committee Debate upon the Budget proposals was in progress, my right hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon), who is not for the moment in his place—[HON. Member: "He is!"]—I beg his pardon. My right hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley, who has now taken the place which belongs to his right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), said, on the subject of this tax: what had been said by the late Chancellor of the Exchequer and indicated that he did not doubt that the revenue would be obtained and that the practical administration of the tax could be carried out.
That, I think, is a considerable advance. In breaking up a general gathering of hostile and adverse arguments, one is always glad to see one whole block of contentions definitely withdrawn. Therefore all these arguments which we have heard for so many years that the tax cannot be collected, that the tax will not work, and so on—all these matters have been definitely withdrawn from the field; so that we may proceed to a consideration of the moral arguments which the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley put forward on the first occasion, and which now in view of the weakness of the practical arguments, he has endeavoured to revive in attenuated form.
I apologise for interrupting the right hon. Gentleman, because I always enjoy his retorts but really the two observations were not inconsistent. What I said on the Second Reading was that I could not claim in regard to every occasion on which anybody makes a wager that it was an offence against morals. I did not take the high moral grounds thus indicated; but I have never varied in the view that there are, on grounds of high policy, the strongest possible to objection to the tax.
I am quite ready to leave the matter where it was left by the right hon. Gentleman, applauded by the Noble Lady the Member for the Sutton Division (Viscountess Astor). On the moral issue I want to ask very plainly some serious questions On this moral question where do the Labour party, the official Opposition, stand? The right hon. Gentleman the late Chancellor of the Exchequer said this after noon—I wrote his words down—"We would, if we had the power, sweep away betting altogether." I wrote those words down—
I said that those who held my opinion would do that.
When the right hon. Gentleman speaks as one of those of the first rank who held one of the most important offices in the late Administration, when he speaks from the Front Opposition Bench, I assume he does so in the name of the party. In the ordinary practice Parliament assumes that those speaking from the Front Bench are speaking in a collective and representative sense. I quite understood, certainly, that when the right hon. Gentleman spoke he spoke from a united and collective point of view upon these matters. When things have been said on this side on behalf of the Government they carry with them the assent of the Government, and of the party supporters. But the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Morgan Jones) made a very vigorous and well-reasoned speech—before dinner—in which he—and I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman opposite whose view he seemed to uphold need be nervous about being thrown over, because, although he may not carry the whole of his party with him, he has a vigorous supporter in the Member for Caerphilly—described betting as "a river of polluted activity" He compared it with prostitution.
What I said was that the Chancellor of the Exchequer could found the acceptance on financial grounds of a tax on betting; on the same financial grounds he could put a tax on prostitution.
I am quite content with that confirmation of what I have said. The hon. Member has put the two on the same level. As I say, he has spoken of me refreshing my coffers from "this river of polluted activity." These are strong expressions, and I want to know, can the party opposite accept these expressions, endorse them, cheer them, and yet be ready to leave matters where they are? Such language is mere hypocrisy unless it is accompanied by a resolute and determined intention to use all legitimate political means to procure an arrest or repression of the evil. Take my hon. Friend the Member for Dundee (Mr. Scrymgeour). He is the one logical Member of the party opposite. [An HON. MEMBEE: "That is why he represents Dundee!"] I have had a larger share of the representation of Dundee than the hon. Member, and if that be test of logic it is one in which, judged by length of time, I greatly excel him.
My hon. Friend is entirely logical in this matter, and what does he say? I am sure he will not accuse me of misquoting him, at any rate I sincerely desire to avoid any such thing. He opposes this tax. That is right, is it not? But he says to the rest of the Committee and to. his own party, and to Members wherever they may sit—(An HON. MEMBER: "He is his own party!"] Well, it is a very respectable party. I am well aware of the hon. Gentleman's work amongst the poor for many years. He says: "If you are going to argue against the taxation: of betting, you must argue also against the taxation of drink, and you must go for Prohibition in both cases." That is a perfectly logical view, and that is a view which found a sort of shadowy support from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley.
indicated dissent.
He said that if we were considering this matter de novo, if there were no taxation whatever upon drink, no man on moral grounds could proceed by taxation, but would be bound to proceed by Prohibition. That is quite a logical view, and that is also the view of the Noble Lady the Member for the-Sutton Division of Plymouth (Viscountess Astor). I think a very clear issue on those lines could be drawn in this House. Experience has shown, is showing day by day, that in regard to. matters like drink, and also, I venture to suggest, like betting, which do not excite the reprobation of great masses of free human beings, prohibition in advance of public opinion is attended by every evil —by evasion, by corruption, by a great increase either in drinking or in betting and by very large sums which otherwise might inure to the advantage of the State being gathered by the "bootlegger" or by the illegal gambler. On that issue, which is a perfectly logical issue as unfolded by the hon. Member for Dundee, I have no doubt there is a perfectly clear line of opinion both in this House and in the country, and it is a line of opinion on which we should with great confidence submit ourselves to judgment by vote either here or out of doors. It would make a very great difference to the whole situation in this country if a party, representing as it does so many millions of working people, were definitely to take UD the stand which is taken by the hon. Member for Dundee, and say, "We will use our power, our legislative and political power and the authority which we may acquire, and face all the unpopularity that may be involved, in order to repress the betting habits of this country." That would make a great difference in the situation, but you do not say that.
Do not let people run away supposing that if this House or this country decided definitely to put down betting effectively it could not do it. Betting could be blotted out if it were the will of the nation or the will of Parliament representing the nation. You could prohibit the publication of betting odds. You could prohibit race meetings. You could prohibit football matches or anything of that nature. You could also prohibit, in all the newspapers, the publication of advertisements which deal with betting. You could prohibit the use of public telephones and telegraphs for transacting betting business, and you could prosecute the bookmakers who now advertise so freely their offices and places where they transact their business. Therefore do not deceive yourselves by the assumption that you could not curtail and keep down the great volume of betting in this country by such action, taken by any party which became dominant in Parliament.
I would like, however, to ask, is it the policy of the Labour party to inscribe on their banner the prohibition of betting? If that is their policy, they have every right to reproach us, as they have done; but if they are not going to take those steps—and they know that they would not be tolerated by their constituents—as long as they do not say that, then they have no right to taunt me with drinking at a polluted stream. I hold in my hand a copy of the "Daily Herald," and I find that no less than three columns are filled with classified advertisements of the results of sweepstakes and lotteries on the Derby. That is betting among comrades. The right hon. Gentleman opposite described the cause of the pollution of the stream, and he also said that the sin of betting consisted in attempting to get something for nothing. I have always understood that the idea of getting something for nothing was one of the fundamental maxims of the Socialist party. Then the right hon. Gentleman entered into the precise status in law of betting as it is now permitted in this country. He said it is not illegal, but is not legal, and he suggested that I was taking some step which would turn what was at present not illegal into something which in the future might be considered to be definitely legal. I am not for a moment, with so many distinguished lawyers present, going to plunge too deeply into the legal subtleties of this question, but, as a plain man, it seems to me that between what is not illegal and what is not legal there must be a very narrow, restricted margin, upon which, one would suggest at first sight, there was not room for anything very important to go; but a lot of important things are carried on in this very narrow margin between what is not illegal and what is not legal.
Only a week ago, on Epsom Downs, two or three hundred thousand persons, or whatever the number may have been, were gathered. The road was kept clear by the police, and every arrangement which our attenuated transport services permitted was strained to its utmost to enable them to reach the site; and there, in the fullest publicity, watched by the Press of the entire country, and its affairs followed with anxious interest in every part of this Island, we had the great national race meeting of the year. That took place on the narrow no man's land between what is not legal and what is not illegal. The hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Morgan Jones) said that we were winking. Fancy winking at the Derby!
Of course, betting is perfectly legal in these circumstances; there is no question as to its legality. People have seemed to suggest that doubt is thrown on its legality by the fact that bets are not enforceable contracts at law; but a promise to pay money to a charity, with a wholly virtuous and benevolent intention, is not enforceable at law. We are doing nothing to alter in the slightest degree the existing legal status of batting in certain circumstances. My right hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley, having on the Second Reading committed himself to a discarding of the moral argument, and having found the other arguments not giving a very firm foothold, came back on his tracks and returned to the moral argument; and he was, in consequence, forced to embark upon a kind of dialecti- cal egg-dance, with a view to obtaining the advantage of proving that we were committing a great moral lapse without actually committing himself to the position that the moral issue was raised.
The right hon. Gentleman put it in a little more moderate terms. He said that we were reversing the view which had been taken of betting by the Legislature for so many years. He suggested that we were making a State endorsement of betting. All that we are doing is to tax betting which is now legal. The only recognition we give to it is that of taking the names and addresses of persons making books, and charging them a small fee, for the purpose of making sure that we can tax them. That is the only recognition we give. As in the case of the Irish sergeant who was made a corporal and described it as promotion, it is what is called an Irishman's rise. That is all that we are doing for betting.
These certificates which we give to bookmakers are not certificates of character. We take no responsibility for their character, and consequently we create no vested interests. We take no more responsibility for their character than for the character of patent medicines which are taxed and which bear the Government stamp, which bear the crown upon them, and which are sold, but we accept no liability in the event of their not curing the diseases for which they are designed. There is nothing of that. All that is done is to earmark a particular person or a particular office for the purpose of collecting a tax at a later stage. We take no responsibility in either case. But the laws which deal with larceny in the ease of a fraudulent bookmaker, or fraud in the case of a patent medicine maker, remain in full validity and action. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley used a most remarkable argument. He said hitherto betting has never been taxed. Now you are going to tax it, you enter upon a definitely new phase in the history of the country, and the whole attitude of the country towards this practice will be altered by what is taking place, and he drew an affecting picture of the new generation coming forward—hitherto they have, apparently, entirely abstained from this practice—to be taxed, and says their eagerness to come to the rescue of the Chancellor of the Exchequer will be such that a widespread increase in the practice is inevitable. I do not believe the right hon. Gentleman is showing a deep insight into the working of the mind of modern youth. I do not believe, for my own part, they will be in the slightest degree encouraged to bet by the fact that it will cost them more and pay them less.
Lastly, on this moral question, there is the Noble Lady the Member for Sutton, whose speech I regret to say I was not able to hear, but whose opinion was conveyed to me on many occasions during the course of these Debates. Of all the illogical attitudes which have been adopted on this moral issue, I really think the palm and the prize must be awarded to her. At one moment she rends our hearts with the moral obliquity of betting, and the evil it causes in the country, and in all classes, and almost withous a change we are exciting ourselves to know what will be the fortunes of the great stable with which she is associated. She adopted a course, if my memory serves me right, which I certainly think on the whole is a risky one for Members of Par liament to adopt. She gave advice on a public platform to a large number of persons—
I never did!
as to the horse on which they had better, if they should be so tempted, repose their faith and their stake. But I quite agree my Noble Friend has a method of escape from the criticism of illogicality I am fastening upon her, because she can say she only gave that advice in order to sicken them of a bad habit. The horse which she advised them to back did not run first; it ran last.
I ask the Committee to contrast with all this illogical though no doubt entirely well meaning agitation and argument, the opinions which are expressed by the religious bodies of this country. It is quite a delusion to suppose that the religious bodies are united in opposition to this duty. If they had been united in opposition to the duty, I should not have been surprised, because, naturally, the point of view which they have to sustain is one which they must safeguard from any appearance of inroad or of admission, and certainly I will not reproach or impugn them in that respect. Very marked division has occurred. Take Scotland. There has been a good deal said of Scotland in the Debate. Both the official and the unofficial branches of the Labour party have spoken of the views of Scotland. No one can impugn the piety of Scotland and of the religious bodies of Scotland. When we have these rather gross analogies drawn between what we are doing and what it is suggested we should be entitled to do, I am entitled to point to the proceedings of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland last week and this week. The Committee of Church and Nation took the general line of saying that they were opposed to this duty, but when it came to the General Assembly, an amendment was moved, even against some of the most influential members of that body, not disapproving of the duty, but positively approving of it. When we hear all this talk that we ought to tax liquor and to prohibit it, let me read to the Committee an account of remarks that were made, not for political purposes, but in a serious discussion in a body of this kind, by Dr. Cox, who moved to delete from the deliverance a statement declaring opposition to the Betting Duty. He said:
I know that the right hon. Gentleman intends to be entirely fair, and what he says is quite accurate. I do not want to put one Church against the other, but in fairness I am sure he would wish this House to know that on the very afternoon that that was being done, the United Free Church of Scotland, which is comparable to the other Church, passed a resolution in exactly the opposite direction.
So far from desiring to be unfair, I had on my notes the United Free Church as the next subject to which I was about to refer. The United Free Church, I know, recorded by a majority the other view, but even there, there was a definite and recognisable minority. All I am trying to prove is that these are not matters on which any man is entitled, however earnest and however sincere he may be, to stand up and say-that he sets himself up as an arbiter of what is right and what is wrong, when a vast number of worthy and respectable people, of the highest position, are entitled to judge entirely for themselves, and they are judging for themselves. The London Diocesan Conference carried by a majority of 119 to 58 a Resolution condemning this duty, but there were 58 gentlemen who took a view in favour of the duty. Therefore I am entitled to say there is no united hostility by the Churches or by those specially concerned during their life with the social welfare of the mass of the people. Their attitude necessarily in all cases should be one of great reserve in a matter of this difficult kind.
Let me deal for a moment with the arguments that the tax will increase betting. I have heard it said in this Debate three or four times that betting has increased in every country where betting has been taxed. Even if betting has increased in every country where it was taxed, it does not at all-follow that a tax on betting here will increase betting. With countries which have only just begun racing, and in which betting has only just developed— countries which are perhaps new countries, in which the population is increasing, and there is an increase in wealth in all such countries—it may-well be that, in spite of the tax, betting will steadily increase and advance. In this island, where betting is not taxed, there is more betting than in any other country in the whole world in proportion to the population. It is almost the greatest feature of our national life. To say that imposing a tax on betting in England at the present time is not going to be a burden upon betting and upon institutions that support betting, is to my mind flying in the face of the most obvious facts which appeal to the good sense of everybody.
It is quite certain that this tax will diminish, the total volume of money spent in betting. We are budgeting for a diminution of £50,000,000. Our calculations are made on that basis. The only doubt I have in my mind, after these long discussions and after weighing the matter, not only before the Budget was introduced, but in the open public controversy which has taken place since, is whether the rate of the tax is not cutting too deep. In any case, it is going to restrict and diminsh betting. The only doubt I have is whether it may go further and affect, in some prejudicial manner, actual horse-racing itself. On the general issue, is there not a feeling of why should not this very large wealthy class who gamble with bookmakers, many of whom never take the trouble to go to a racecourse to see the horses running, but who enjoy every facility of betting on the tape, on the newspaper odds by telephone and telegraph with those large commission agents, pay some contribution for their pleasure and excitement towards the upkeep of the State in times when taxation is heavy upon the humblest comforts of the poor and heavy indeed upon the business man or manufacturer? I cannot see why these people should not pay some contribution in the course of their pleasure and excitement, which is at least proportionate to what is paid by anyone who chooses to gamble on the Stock Exchange.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillhead in the course of his excellent speech asked whether it would not be better to make the duty rest on winnings instead of on the turnover. There is not so much difference between a duty on turnover and a duty on winnings as would appear at first sight. The difference is almost inappreciable. Someone wins every bet, and someone loses every bet. The public do not bet with the bookmaker, but with each other through the bookmaker, who is paid a comparatively small commission for handling the business. That has been calculated at 3 per cent, in some quarters and at 5 per cent, in others; that is the deduction made by the bookmaker for his expenses and profits. If that is so, for every £100 paid by the public, £5, perhaps £97, is won back by the public, and therefore the difference between a tax on turnover and a duty on profits is no more than a difference of 5 per cent, of 3 per cent. Our duty of 5 per cent, will mean that for every £100 paid by the public £90 will be received back. It doubles, or more than doubles, the actual deadweight borne by the backer of horses.
The question, and the only question, about which I am at all in doubt is whether this addition to the burden of the betting public will be such as not merely to restrict and reduce the volume of betting, but as to affect the whole business of horse racing, which to a very large extent is bound up with betting. Here I come to the excellent maiden speech of the hon. Member for Chichester (Major Courtauld). If I understood his case it was this. He says that the horse-breeding community did not challenge the fact that there should be a duty on betting, and did not dispute the fact that such a duty might well yield £6,000,000 a year. They believe it will. They consider that the present rate of the duty, 5 per cent, on turnover, will yield, not £6,000,000 a year, but a very much larger sum, and that it was also the opinion of the right hon. Member for Hillhead when he occupied the position of Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Since the Budget was opened and the tax was announced, we have had a great deal more information than was in our possession when we had to conduct our inquiries under all the secrecy of Budget preparation, and while I am not in a position to announce any different estimates at the present time, I am led to believe, from the examinations we have been permitted to make of the accounts of some of the greatest bookmaking firms, that the turnover is substantially more than the £200,000,000 originally mentioned. Consequently, it is possible that while this horse-racing, sporting and betting public could quite easily bear a duty yielding £6,000,000 a year, yet the actual working of a 5 per cent, duty on turnover might conceivably yield a, very much larger sum, and in yielding that sum it might produce a reaction which was never contemplated or intended by the Government at the time they proposed the duty, That is a matter which must be carefully considered, and will be carefully considered before Report. To bring about the restriction of betting is a matter on which no one need have any compunction; gaining a revenue of £6,000,000 or £7,000,000 is an object, not only desirable, but necessary; but to bring about a general collapse of the whole system of racing as it exists to-day would be entirely foreign to any proposal I wish to be responsible for presenting to the House of Commons.
11.0 P.M.
I hold myself perfectly free to consider whether, subject to securing the revenue I have mentioned, the existing rate of tax is more than is necessary, or whether possibly, having regard to the difference in the expenses of the person who bets by telephone or telegraph to the credit bookmaker and the person who goes to a racecourse and participates in the sport and lends some support to the upkeep of the sport of racing, some differentiation between the flat rate at which the tax is levied on the racecourse and the rate at which it is levied in the bookmaker's office, might not be considered. I am making no pledge of any sort or kind, but am promising to give consideration to that aspect of the case between now and the Report stage.
But on the general issue, I have a right to claim that the main structure of out-arguments and proposals has remained
absolutely intact and unimpared. The principle has been generally endorsed by the sensible public opinion of the country. The attempt to impart the moral argument has decisively failed through lack of confidence in a great number of those who tried to use it. No alteration is made in the law, and there is no extension of the limits of legality of betting. The practicability of the tax has been admitted on all sides of the House. That a substantial revenue will be gained is undoubted at the present time—a revenue greater than that yielded by the whole of the Tea Duty, greater than that which would be lost if it were possible to restore the penny postage. If the tax is kept within the moderate limits which we contemplate, we believe that there will be, agreeably with all those advantages, no injury to a national sport. In these circumstances, the Government count with confidence upon the healthy good sense of the nation and the practical sagacity of the House of Commons.
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 231; Noes, 152.
Division No. 270.] AYES. [11.3 p.m. Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Cautley, Sir Henry S. Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth.S.) Foxcroft, Captain C. T. Albery, Irving James Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Fraser, Captain Ian Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.) Fremantle, Lt.-Col. Francis E. Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Ganzonl, Sir John Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool,W. Derby) Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Gates, Percy Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Churchman, Sir Arthur C. Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton Apsley, Lord Clarry, Reginald George Gower, Sir Robert Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Clayton, G. C. Grace, John Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Grant, J. A. Astor, Maj. Hn. John J.(Kent, Dover) Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Gretton, Colonel John Athoil, Duchess of Cooper, A. Duff Guest, Capt. Rt.Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N.) Atkinson, C. Cope, Major William Gunston, Captain D. W. Balfour, George (Hampstead) Couper, J. B. Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Balniel, Lord Courtauld, Major J. S. Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe) Hammersley, S. S. Barnett, Major Sir Richard Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Harland, A. Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Hartington, Marquess of Bennett, A. J. Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Bethel, A. Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) Haslam, Henry C. Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) Cunliffe, Sir Herbert Hawke, John Anthony Blundell, F. N. Curzon, Captain Viscount Headiam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Dalkeith, Earl of Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxford, Henley) Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle) Briscoe, Richard George Davies, Dr. Vernon Herbert, S.(York, N.R., Scar. & Wh'by) Brocklebank, C. E. R. Davies, David (Montgomery) Hilton, Cecil Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Dlxey, A. C. Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St.Marylebone) Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) Edmondson, Major A. J. Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C. (Berks, Newb'y) Elliot, Captain Walter E. Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Buckingham, Sir H. Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) Holland, Sir Arthur Bullock, Captain M. Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) Holt, Captain H. P. Burman, J. B. Everard, W. Lindsay Hops, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. Fairfax, Captain J. G. Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Butler, Sir Geoffrey Falle, Sir Bertram G. Hopkins, J. W. W. Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Fleiden, E. B. Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) Horllck, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. Moore, Sir Newton J. Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Home, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Stanley, Lord (Fylde) Howard, Captain Hon. Donald Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Stanley, Hon. O. F. G.(Westm'eland) Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Murchison, C. K. Steel, Major Samuel Strang Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph Storry-Deans, R. Hurd, Percy A. Nelson, Sir Frank Streatfeild, Captain S. R. Hurst, Gerald B. Neville, R. J. Strickland, Sir Gerald Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's) Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hon. W.G.(Ptrsf'id.) Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. Illffe, Sir Edward M. Nuttall, Ellis Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Jackson, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. F. S. O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H. Jacob, A. E. Penny, Frederick George Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) Jephcott, A. R. Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Kidd. J. (Linlithgow) Perkins, Colonel E. K. Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- King, Captain Henry Douglas Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Tinne, J. A. Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Knox, Sir Alfred Pllcher, G. Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough Lamb, J. Q. Price, Major C. W. M. Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Radford, E. A. Waddington, R. Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) Raine, W. Wallace, Captain D. E. Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Remer, J. R. Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) Loder, J. de V. Rentoul, G. S. Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. Lord, Walter Greaves- Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. Warrender, Sir Victor Lougher, L. Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Waterhouse, Captain Charles Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) Wells, S. R. Lumley, L. R. Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. Wheler, Major Sir Granville C' H. MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dalrymple McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus Rye, F. G. Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) MacIntyre, Ian Salmon, Major I. Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) Macmillan Captain H. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Wilson, M. J. (York, N. R., Rlchm'd) Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John Sandeman, A. Stewart Wise, Sir Fredric Makins, Brigadier-General E. Sanders, Sir Robert A. Wolmer, Viscount Malone, Major P. B. Sandon, Lord Womersley, W. J. Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Savery, S. S. Wood, E. (Chesf'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde) Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K. Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange) Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) Moyer, Sir Frank Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W) Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak) Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y) Wragg, Herbert Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) Skelton, A. N. Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dlne,C.) TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —— Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Smithers, Waldron Commander B. Eyres-Monsell and Captain Margesson.
NOES. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Gardner, J. P. Lawrence, Susan Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro) Gibbins, Joseph Lawson, John James Astor, Viscountess Gillett, George M. Lee, F. Attlee, Clement Richard Gosling, Harry Lindley, F. W. Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edln., Cent.) Lowth, T. Barnes, A. Greenall, T. Lunn, William Barr, J. Greene, W. P. Crawford Lynn, Sir R. J. Batey, Joseph Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) Beckett, John (Gateshead) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Mackinder, W. Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- Groves, T. MacNeill-Weir, L. Blades, Sir George Rowland Grundy, T. W. March, S. Brassey, Sir Leonard Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley,) Briant, Frank Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Montague, Frederick Broad, F. A. Hardle, George D. Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Bromfield, William Harney, E. A. Murnin, H. Bromley, J. Harris, Percy A. Naylor, T. E. Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Buchanan, G. Hayday, Arthur Oliver, George Harold Butt, Sir Alfred Hayes, John Henry Owen, Major G. Cape, Thomas Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) Palln, John Henry Charleton, H. C. Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Clowes, S. Hills, Major John Waller Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Cluse, W. S. Hirst, G. H. Phillpson, Mabel Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Ponsonby, Arthur Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) Homan, C. W. J. Potts, John S. Compton, Joseph Hore-Bellsha, Leslie Rees, Sir Beddoe Connolly, M. Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Rlley, Ben Crawfurd, H. E. John, William (Rhondda, West) Rose, Frank H. Dalton, Hugh Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Scrymgeour, E. Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Scurr, John Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Day, Colonel Harry Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Dennison, R. Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Duncan, C. Kelly, W. T. Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Dunnlco, H. Kennedy, T. Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Unlver.) Lansbury, George Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ.,Belf'st.) Sltch, Charles H. Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Westwood, J. Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey) Whiteley, W. Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Wiggins, William Martin Snell, Harry Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip Thurtle, E. Williams, David (Swansea, East) Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe) Tinker, John Joseph Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly) Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charies Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) Stamford, T. W. Varley, Frank B. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Stephen, Campbell Viant, S. P. Wright, W. Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Watson, W. M. (Dunfermilne) TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —— Sutton, J. E. Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Warne. Taylor, R. A. Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
We have had a full day's Debate upon the general question involved in this Clause, and I understand that the Amendments down on the Paper have been partially covered by the general Debate, and those that have not been covered by,the general Debate raise points which are somewhat narrow. I would like to move to report Progress, in order that the Government might tell us what it proposes to do. Would it not be possible, within the scheme that has already been agreed to by the various parties in the House, to report Progress now, and then to finish these details on Monday, and yet not lose any time in the general discussion?
Do I understand the right hon. Gentleman moves to Report progress?
Yes. I beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
Of course, the Government would like to go on, to reach that point in the general programme which we had set before ourselves, and which was apportioned to the labours of this day. We should like to have taken these Amendments, and to begin on Monday on the Income Tax— on the very important and extremely complex questions connected with Income Tax which really require broad daylight discussion in the Committee. Moreover, at the beginning of Questions to-day a ruling was asked of you, Mr. Hope, as to whether you would allow a general Debate, and you said you would allow a general discussion, and the widest possible general Debate on the main question on the first Amendment, and then the other Amendments, it was understood—that was what was put forward by the late Chancellor of the Ex- chequer, the right hon. Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden)—should be voted on, the general Debate having been the most serviceable method of ventilating the topic. But, of course, the Government would not wish to run counter to the desires of the Opposition at a time when we are debating within the limits of an agreement to which everybody has become a party, and, of course, if it be the wish of the Opposition to begin on Monday with taking up some time on the outstanding and limited questions which arise on this tax, and take that time out of the time which would be available for the larger issues of Income Tax, the Government would not persist in its wish against the general inclinations of hon. Members opposite. I should like to know from the right hon. Gentleman that it is quite clearly understood that, if we do not sit any later tonight, but allow the rest of this subject to pass over, it is all within the limits of the general agreement which has been reached as to the time to be taken. There is a great deal to be said for such arrangements, which secure full discussion for important items, but do not take up the time of Members on matters which, after all, are of minor importance.
May I make two points clear? First of all, there is no intention of changing the general programme. That is point No. 1. As to point No. 2, there is no intention of altering the declarations made by my right hon. Friend at the beginning of the Debate to-day. We do not wish to postpone the Amendments in order that we may discuss them at greater length than we would do now. It is simply for the convenience of the Committee that I make the suggestion that we continue on Monday exactly as we should go on now if we did not report Progress.
We accept that suggestion.
Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again," put, and agreed to.
Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.
Electricity (Supply) Acts
Resolved,
"That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922, and confirmed' by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the urban district of Walton-le-Dale, in the county of Lancaster, which was presented on the 18th day of March, 1926, be approved."
Resolved,
"That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the urban district of Littlehampton, in the administrative county of West Sussex, which was presented on the 18th day of March, 1926, be approved."
Resolved,
"That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the borough of Flint, the urban district of Holywell, and the rural district of Holywell, in the county of Flint, which was presented on the 23rd day of March, 1926, be approved."
Resolved,
"That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Elec- tricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of parts of the rural districts of Gwyrfai and Ogwen, in the county of Carnarvon, which was presented on the 18th day of March, 1926, be approved."
Resolved,
"That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, In respect of the urban districts of Sandbach and Alsager and the rural district of Congleton, in the county of Chester, which was presented on the 18th day of March, 1926, be approved."
Resolved,
"That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the boroughs of Welshpool and Montgomery and the rural district of Forden, in the county of Montgomery, which was presented on the 18th day of March, 1926, be approved."— [ Lieut.-Colonel Moore-Brabazon. ]
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
Adjournment
Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."— [ Commander Eyres Monsell. ]
Adjourned accordingly at Twenty Minutes after Eleven o'Clock.