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Commons Chamber

Volume 196: debated on Tuesday 15 June 1926

House of Commons

Tuesday, June 15, 1926

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock,Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

Private Business

PRIVATE BILLS [Lords] (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),

Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:

Chorley Corporation Bill [ Lords ].

Bill to be read a Second time.

PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS (No Standing Orders applicable),

Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, referred on the First Reading thereof, no Standing Orders are applicable, namely:

Land Drainage Provisional Order (No. 2) Bill.

War Material (Exports)

asked the President of the Board of Trade what licences have been issued for the period ending the 31st December, 1925, for the export of machine guns or other war material to

Bill to be read a Second time To-morrow.

Oral Answers to Questions

Trade and Commerce

Steel (French and Belgian Prices)

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he can state the approximate advantage a French and Belgian manufacturer possesses through the depreciated exchange and rate of wages in quoting per ton of steel on the British market?

The answer contains a table of figures, and my hon. and gallant Friend will perhaps agree to my circulating it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

CURRENT QUOTATIONS FOR STEEL PER ENGLISH TON.

England and Wales. "Basis prices net; usual deliveries."

France. Export Prices f.o.b.

Belgium. Export Prices.

f.o.b.

Delivered Birmingham District.

s.

d.

s.

d.

s.

d.

S.

d.

s.

d.

S.

d.

Billets

125s. (soft)

84

3

to

85

3

84

3

to

85

3

105

0

to

106

6

Sheet Bars

120s. to 122s. 6d.

89

0

to

90

0

89

0

to

90

0

109

3

to

111

9

Joists

142s. 6d.

93

6

to

95

6

93

6

to

95

6

118

0

to

119

6

Following is the answer:

I regret that I am unable to estimate the effects of the depreciated exchanges and lower wages on the cost of producing steel in France and Belgium compared with that in this country. The following table, based on figures given in the Iron and Coal Trades Review, shows the quotations for certain descriptions of steel f.o.b. French and Belgian ports, and delivered in the Birmingham district, together with corresponding quotations for home-produced steel:—

any foreign powers; when these transactions took place; and what was their exact nature?

A large number of licences are issued for small quantities of war material. I am, however, arranging to have particulars of all licences for material of or over a value of approximately £500, which were issued during 1925, circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT So soon as the particulars can be compiled.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether there was an increase in 1925 over 1924?

Woollen and Worsted Goods (Imports)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can

Description.

1925.

1926.

Quantity.

Declared Value.

Quantity.

Declared Value.

Thousand

Thousand

Thousand

Thousand

Sq. yds.

£'s.

Sq. yds.

£'s.

Woollen Tissues

5,550

1,138

6,577

1,272

Worsted Tissues

3,768

809

2,424

426

Other Woollen and Worsted Manufactures (except apparel).

957

1,044

Total

2,904

2,742

Coal Trade Dispute

Foreign Coal Imported

asked the President of the Board of Trade how much coal from abroad has entered the United Kingdom from the 1st May last to the present or nearest convenient date?

219,000 tons of foreign coal reached Great Britain between 1st May and 12th June. I have no information as to arrivals in Ireland.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say from where the bulk of this coal came?

No, Sir. I am afraid I must have notice of that question. The coal comes from various parts of the Continent, including Germany.

Prices, Dundee

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he is aware

give the imports of woollen and worsted goods for the quarter ending March last and the corresponding period of the year 1925?

As the answer involves a table of figures, I propose, with the concurrence of my hon. Friend, to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

The reply is as follows:

The following statement shows the total quantities and declared values of woollen and worsted manufactures (except apparel) registered as imported into Great Britain and Northern Ireland during the three months January-March, 1925, and 1926, respectively.

that coal is now being sold in Dundee at 4s. per cwt.; and what steps he proposes to take to prevent such profiteering?

I have been asked to reply. I have received a complaint that excessive prices are being charged for coal in Dundee and I am looking into the matter.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this has been going on for the past fortnight and is he also aware that the price being charged for the coal that was actually produced at the pithead was 23s.; and what steps is he going to take to stop it?

The hon. Gentleman has not given me any particulars. If he will do so, I will certainly go into the matter.

I have already sent the hon. Gentleman a whole list of these cases, and I wish now to ask him whether he has completed his inquiries into these detailed cases, and whether he is prepared to recommend a general policy for stopping profiteering?

No, Sir, I am not prepared to recommend any general policy for stopping profiteering; but in cases where it is clearly proved that there has been profiteering then certainly action will be required. I think it would be a great mistake to set up a general system where there are only individual cases of profiteering.

If I give the right hon. Gentleman the official invoices in these cases will he take action?

Yes, I will if action is wanted. I will certainly inquire fully into anything the hon. Member puts before me.

Has any case been actually proved up to the present, and, if so, has any action been taken?

I am inquiring into several cases. Many cases have been gone into, and have been found to have no foundation. I have already issued a circular to all collieries warning them that if undue prices are charged it will be necessary for the Government to take drastic action.

Is it not a fact that supply and demand has something to do with the price of this commodity?

The Secretary for Mines said that he would take action. I want to ask him, in the event of his finding that profiteering has been going on as described by the hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Johnston) what action will he take?

I have power to requisition the stocks of anybody who is selling coal at an improper price, but I must first of all find out who is responsible, whether it is the colliery owner or the retailer.

Wage Earners (Coal Mines)

asked the Secretary for Mines if he will give the average figures of the persons working in or about coal mines for the 12 months of 1925; and the number employed on the surface, the number employed underground, and the percentage of the underground workers who are on piece rates?

The average number of wage-earners employed at coal mines during the year 1925 was 1,086,300, including a few persons who were engaged, in raising or handling minerals other than coal. Of this number it is estimated that 888,600 were employed below-ground and that one-half of the underground workers were on piece rates.

Does that include all piece-rate workers, not differentiating between coal workers and repair workers?

In view of the fact that, according to the right hon. Gentleman's figures, the piece-rate workers represent about 35 per cent., is he aware that an hon. Member opposite, in the Debate on 1st June, stated that the percentage of piece-rate workers was 61, and will the right hon. Gentleman put that matter right?

I am afraid I do not remember inaccurate figures being given in this House on either side, but we are all liable to make mistakes.

Wages Agreement (Northumberland and Durham)

asked the Secretary for Mines whether the agreement which is in operation in the Northumberland and Cumberland mining areas, namely, that, if in the operation of the piece rates of hewers their earnings are more than 10 per cent, above county average, employers may demand reduction of piece rates, is in existence in other areas; and, if so, in which areas?

My Noble Friend is doubtless referring to the Northumberland and Durham agreements originally made in the year 1879. Under these, if the earnings of the piece-workers in any place in a mine are more than 10 per cent. above the county average figure, the owners may ask for a reduction; if they are more than 5 per cent. below, the workmen may ask for an increase. In point of fact, the average earnings of hewers in these counties have for many years been very substantially above the county average figure. I do not know of a similar agreement in any other coalfield.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in Durham that principle has not been working since the war, except in a few individual collieries?

Yes, I said it had only been working in a few collieries. I did not say it was working in the whole coalfield.

Sir H. Samuel's Memorandum

asked the Prime Minister whether, at any time during the period of the general strike, he indicated that he was willing to accept the memorandum of Sir Herbert Samuel as a basis of settlement in the mining dispute; and whether he is prepared to accept the memorandum now, contingent upon its acceptance by the Miners' Federation?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. In reply to the second part, I would ask the right hon. Member to await my speech in the Debate this afternoon.

Royal Commission Report

( by Private Notice ) asked the Secretary for Mines whether, in view of the fact that public opinion must play a large part in the ultimate settlement of the coal dispute, he will consider the immediate publication, in pamphlet form, at the price of one penny, of the last two chapters, 21 and 22, of the Royal Commission's Report, which, whilst stating fully the findings of the Commission, are sufficiently concise to be read in half an hour, whereas, to read the whole Report, would be a matter of days?

I will certainly consider this suggestion, but I am not sure that it is desirable to extract a part of the Report and publish it apart from its context.

Does the right hon. and gallant Gentleman recollect that these two chapters are a complete summary of the whole Report?

Feeding School Children, Armthorpe

( by Private Notice ) asked the President of the Board of Education, if he is aware that 527 school children at Armthorpe, near Don-caster, are deprived of school feeding on account of their not being on the registers, due to lack of accommodation; and, if so, has he taken any steps to ensure that these children shall not suffer because of circumstances entirely beyond their control?

I have no information as to the actual number of children at Armthorpe not attending school owing to lack of accommodation. I can only refer the hon. Member to the reply given to him on the 3rd June regarding the statutory powers of local education authorities.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that for every three children attending school, there are five children walking the streets, and is he also aware that because of neglect, either on the part of the local education committee or of his Department, these children are deprived of any advantage under the Feeding of School Children Act? Does he not think that his Department could do something to relieve a very acute situation?

No. I do not think that my Department or the local education authority can do anything to relieve the situation, because their powers are limited by the Act. They can only provide meals for children who are in attendance at school, and then only under certain limitations.

In view of the present situation, could not these school children be placed upon the register, so that they would come within the terms of the Feeding of School Children Act?

I do not think it is a question of being placed upon the register. The wording of the Act is: "In attendance at school."

Was it not the intention that the Act should not apply to children who were staying away from school mainly through the negligence of their parents, or for similar causes? In this case, where the children are away from school because the education authority have not provided school accommodation for them, and where no complaint can be levied against the parents of the children, could not something be done to feed these children, many of whom are starving?

Are not children presumed to be attending school up to a certain legal age, whether there is accommodation for them or not?

The reply to the last Supplementary Question is that it is a legal question, of which I should like to have notice. I cannot say. That is not my advice at the moment. In regard to the other Supplementary Question, if the hon. Member would consult the Act he will see that that is not so.

British Army

Trained Men (Emigration)

asked the Secretary of State for War how many men trained at Catterick have since emigrated to one of the Dominions?

The number of men trained at the vocational training centre at Catterick who have since emigrated to the Dominions is, so far as can be ascertained, approximately 130.

Full Dress Uniform

asked the Secretary of State for War which regiments of His Majesty's Army have returned to the wearing of pre-War full-dress uniform; what is the number of soldiers concerned; and whether all officers are required to provide themselves with full-dress uniforms?

Full-dress uniform is worn by all ranks of the Household Cavalry and the Brigade of Guards, who number approximately 8,300. In addition, full-dress is worn by the bands of units of the Regular Army while Serving in the United Kingdom or with the British Army of the Rhine. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative.

With regard to the full-dress uniform for officers, may I take it that all officers are permitted to provide themselves will full-dress uniform, if they desire it?

Royal Artillery (Artificers)

asked the Secretary of State for War what changes, if any, will be made as the result of the recommendations of the Committee appointed to consider the question of promotion of artificers in the Royal Artillery?

The Report of the Committee in question is at present under consideration. No decisions have yet been reached thereon.

I have been asking specific questions for a year, and the right hon. Gentleman has said he is going to await the Report of the Committee. I understand the Committee has now reported. Cannot he make any statement?

The Committee has reported and the hon. Member will not need to wait another year for the information he desires.

Scotland

Sentence, Edinburgh (L. Mcintyre)

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether his attention has been called to the medical evidence given in the case of Laughlan McIntyre, who was recently sentenced in Edinburgh to one month's imprisonment; and whether, in view of the evidence, he can see his way to recommend the man's release?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. After consideration of a report by the sheriff and the medical officer, I did not feel justified in recommending any remission, and prisoner served his sentence, which expired on the 11th June.

Shetland Woollen Industries' Association

asked the Secretary for Scotland if it has been decided to grant any financial assistance to the Shetland Woollen Industries' Association to enable that association to advertise the trade mark adopted by it for the protection of the Home industry of knitting, which is of vital importance to the islands?

The Board of Agriculture for Scotland have offered a grant of £400 to the Shetland Woollen Industries' Association in aid of the cost of advertising the trade mark, which has been registered for use in the marking of Shetland hand-knit goods.

Ordnance Survey Department (Mr. W. J. Evans)

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether the discretionary power can be exercised and approval given for a small portion of the service in the Ordnance Survey Department of Mr. W. J. Evans, late head store-warder, Duke Street Prison, to count for pension purposes, in order that the maximum pension may be payable?

SUMMARY OF THE RECOMMENDATIONS OF THE SCOTTISH CONFERENCE ON AGRICULTURAL POLICY AND OF THE DECISIONS TAKEN BY THE GOVERNMENT THEREON.

Recommendation.

Decision.

1. (A) Financial assistance should be given from public funds for land drainage schemes without restrictions as to the labour to be employed or the period of the year within which it is to be employed. The assistance should take the form of a grant not exceeding half the cost of the work or a loan of the whole amount free of interest.

1. (A) Funds have been made available, amounting in the financial year 1926–7 to £20,625 for agricultural drainage; the grant payable is one-third of the cost of approved work or, in the case of tile drainage, £6 per acre of land improved, whichever sum be the less. No restriction is imposed as to the type of labour to be engaged.

Subject to the authority of Parliament being obtained, money for the purpose will be provided in the four following financial years.

(B) Legislation on the lines of the English Land Drainage Acts should be passed enabling drainage areas to be delineated and Drainage Boards to be constituted.

(B) This question is under consideration.

2. The Board of Agriculture for Scotland should make a survey of the supplies of lime and of lime kilns; financial assistance should be given from public funds for the establishment or re-opening of lime kilns; experiments to determine the form in which it is most economical to apply lime are most desirable.

2. An intensive survey of the agricultural economy of four parishes in Kincardineshire has been made; the survey included an in vestigation into the lime requirements of the land and the possible local sources of supply. The question of a general survey of the supplies of lime will be further considered.

3. Money should be advanced on loan by the State at a low rate of interest for the maintenance of buildings and equipment.

3. The Government are giving special con sideration with a view to the preparation of a scheme on a sound commercial basis for short term credit, credit for provision of improvements and credit for land purchase.

I am afraid that the well-established practice in the administration of Section 3 of the Superannuation Act, 1887, precludes the reckoning for pension of dissimilar unestablished service in a different department. In the circumstances Mr. Evans has been awarded the maximum pension to which his service entitles him.

Agricultural Conference (Government Decision)

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he is yet in a position to announce the Government's decision upon the several recommendations of the Scottish Agricultural Conference, 1925?

As the statement which I propose to make with regard to the recommendations of the Scottish Conference on Agricultural Policy is necessarily long, I shall, with the hon. and gallant Member's permission circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the statement:

Recommendation.

Decision.

4. Houses should be erected for agricultural workers, one-half the cost up to a limit of £250 (or less in the case of houses not of concrete, brick or stone) should be given by the State. A subsidy should be given of one-half the cost of the improvement of existing houses up to £100.

4. As announced in the Government statement of Agricultural Policy, the provision of means of facilitating the improvement and reconditioning of existing rural cottages is receiving consideration and an inter-Departmental Committee has been appointed to investigate the position and make recommendations. Reference may be made to the statements of the Minister of Health in reply to questions on 6th May and 3rd June as to the prospects of legislation.

Occupying owners should be assisted by loans as well as grants and workers should be encouraged by loans and grants to build houses for themselves.

5. (A) The recommendations of the Departmental Committee on the General Organisation and Finance of Agricultural Education and Research in Scotland should be adopted, subject to certain qualifications.

5. (A) Without dealing here in detail with the recommendations and qualifications it may be said in general that progress is being made along the lines suggested.

(B) The work of soil surveys and analyses should be continued and extended, and ultimately a Soils Bureau should be established under the Board of Agriculture for Scotland.

(B) A staff is engaged in this work at each of the three Agricultural Colleges. This work will be developed as rapidly as circumstances permit.

(C) The teaching of economics should have a more prominent place in the curricula of Agricultural Colleges, and thorough investigation should be made into the general principles of the subject as well as into methods and results of costing and accounting.

(C) Arrangements have been made for the appointment of—

(1) an advisory officer on farm economics to the staff of the Board of Agriculture for Scotland (the appointment meantime to be on a temporary basis);

(2) a costings officer to the staff of each of the three Agricultural Colleges. The duties of these officers will include the collation and interpretation of statistical and financial data relating to farming practice and farm management, with a view, in the first place, to the formulation of a scheme for testing new methods or modification of existing methods.

The officer attached to the staff of the Board will be available to advise the college officers and to correlate the work.

In February, 1925, a Committee of Inquiry was appointed by the Board of Agriculture for Scotland, with the following minute of reference:—

( a ) To examine and report on various methods of farm accounting followed in different countries and to recommend the one which seems best for ascertaining cost of production and profit; and) To examine and report on various methods of farm accounting followed in different countries and to recommend the one which seems best for ascertaining cost of production and profit; and

( b ) To indicate generally what are the principal problems of farm economics, the solution of which might be aided by the collected result of a sufficient number of kept accounts, and where there is any further statistical information which the Board might profitably collect for the purpose of solving such problems.) To indicate generally what are the principal problems of farm economics, the solution of which might be aided by the collected result of a sufficient number of kept accounts, and where there is any further statistical information which the Board might profitably collect for the purpose of solving such problems.

The Committee has recently reported.

(D) A large number of demonstration areas should be established.

(D) The provision of demonstration areas is being extended so far as possible. There are at present 27 such areas, in addition to which a large number of field demonstrations and experiments are carried out each year.

(E) The work of investigating question relating to the improvement of pastures should continue, and the information obtained should be brought more to the knowledge of farmers.

(E) Valuable work is being done by the Agricultural Colleges in the improvement of pastures, and this work is being developed and extended wherever possible. Publicity is given to the results of these experiments and demonstrations. Investigations into the mineral contents of pastures have been carried out by the staff of the Rowett Institute, and considerable developments of this work are in prospect.

Recommendation.

Decision.

6 (A) Supplies of electrical power should be developed on a national basis with a view to it being supplied at cheap rates for agricultural purposes.

6. (A) The Government have introduced legislation for the development of supplies of electrical power on a national basis.

(B) Conditions for telephone party lines in rural districts should be altered, the limit at the flat rate should be extended to three miles, telephones should be installed at railway stations, and telephones at farm houses should be charged for at "residential" rates.

(B) The financial objections to these recommendations are considerable, but the question whether it is practicable to effect improvements in telephone facilities in rural districts is being considered. It is understood that in some areas steps are being taken to secure co-operation between the railway companies and farmers for the provision of telephones at railway stations.

(C) Market prices should be broadcasted.

(C) The Board of Agriculture for Scotland are considering whether arrangements can be made with the British Broadcasting Company to carry out this purpose.

(D) For long distances on railways the rate per mile should be further reduced.

(D) The Railways Act, 1921, set up a permanent Railway Rates Tribunal and Section 60 and 78 of the Act provide a means by which representations may be made to this Tribunal by bodies of traders, etc., for a reduction of railway freight charges in the case of particular goods or classes of goods.

(E) The costs of sea transport to the Western Highlands and Islands should be further investigated.

(E) An Interdepartmental Conference which recently reported on various matters relating to the steamer services to the Western High lands and Islands, considered the question of freight rates. It is doubtful whether any wholesale reduction is feasible.

7. (A) Imported agricultural produce should be marked, where possible.

7. (A) The Merchandise Marks (Imported Goods) Bill, 1926, provides for the marking of imported goods (including all agricultural and horticultural produce) with an indication of origin, if an Order in Council to that effect be made upon the recommendation of a Committee.

(B) The importation of potatoes liable to be carriers of diseases such as mosaic, leaf roll, etc., should be prohibited.

(B) AS the potatoes which are imported into Scotland are almost invariably intended for domestic consumption and may not be planted without special licences, of which very few have been granted, further measures in addition to the existing Destructive Insects and Pests (Scotland) Order, 1922, are not considered necessary.

(C) The importation of dairy produce, e.g., dried milk, produced under conditions which render its quality doubtful should be prohibited. dried milk, produced under conditions which render its quality doubtful should be prohibited.

(C) As the result of analyses of powdered milk and investigation of the regulations governing the production of powdered milk in other countries, the Board of Agriculture for Scotland are satisfied that the dried milk which is imported is not of inferior quality.

8. (A) The scheme of the Board of Agriculture for Scotland for the encouragement of cattle breeding should be extended to all classes of farmers.

8. (A) This has been done.

(B) The Board of Agriculture for Scotland should, in connection with their pig-breeding scheme, advise pig breeders of the economic necessity for the selection of suitable sires for farm purposes.

(B) The Scottish National Association of Pig Breeders has recently conducted competitions at which pigs of various breeds were judged at three stages, namely, (1) as pigs, (2) as carcases, (3) as rolled Scottish bacon; but the results do not specially favour any one particular breed of pig.

The Board's scheme should be made better known to farmers.

The Board of Agriculture for Scotland endeavour, so far as the funds at their disposal permit, to make their schemes known to farmers.

9. (A) The National Health and Dairy Council should be supported.

9. (A) The Board of Agriculture for Scotland has given administrative assistance to the Scottish National Milk and Health Association during the year of its inception, and has offered a grant of £500 to the association.

Recommendation.

Decision.

(B) Additional assistance should be given from public funds for milk recording, especially on smaller farms.

(B) The support now given from State funds for milk recording appears adequate: under the official scheme the average annual cost to the farmer is about £18, and under the unofficial scheme of the Scottish Milk Records Association the farmer pays 1s. 6d. per cow per annum.

10. The Treasury should for a period of 10 years pay to local authorities a fixed sum in respect of each herd dealt with under a scheme for free tuberculin tests and clinical examinations, and should assist in provision of temporary buildings for farmers.

10. The Tuberculosis Order of 1925 provides for the destruction of bovine animals affected with tuberculosis, or suspected of being so affected, and for the payment of compensation for animals slaughtered on this account. Of the gross amount of the compensation paid, 75 per cent. is repaid to local authorities from the Exchequer.

11. (A) Early action should be taken to give effect to the proposals of the Games and Heather-Burning and Deer Forests Committees.

11. (A) Heather-burning is dealt with in the Heather-Burning (Scotland) Bill now in the House.

Returns of the stock in deer forests are being obtained by the Board of Agriculture for Scotland. The deer forests question will be further considered in the light of these returns.

(B) The provisions of the Rats and Mice (Destruction) Act should be administered more stringently.

(B) An increasing number of local authorities participate in the annual rat week compaign initiated by the Board of Agriculture for Scotland, and most local authorities have a definite organization for the enforcement of the Act.

(C) Further research is required as to the causes of the increase of bracken and as to the best means of checking it.

(C) Experiments as to the best means of destroying bracken are conducted by the Agricultural Colleges.

12. County Agricultural Committees should be constituted and duties assigned to them.

12. It is not considered that the expenditure involved in constituting county agricultural committees would be justified under present conditions.

13. (A) The weighing of store cattle at sales should be made compulsory.

13.—(A) A Bill is now before Parliament making the weighing of fat cattle compulsory; pending further experience, the introduction of similar legislation relating to store cattle is not considered desirable.

(B) A cash-on-delivery system should be adopted by the Post Office and by the railways.

(B) A cash-on-delivery system has been inaugurated by the Postmaster-General.

(C) A duty of 10s. per quarter should be imposed on imported malting and distilling barley.

(C) The Government have been unable to adopt this proposal.

14. Co-operative methods of buying and selling agricultural produce should be widely applied.

14. The Scottish Agricultural Organisation Society is assisted in carrying on its work of propaganda and instruction, in agricultural co-operation by annual grants from the Development Fund. The annual grant to the society was increased to £4,000 for the year 1925–26 with a view to enabling it to extend its operations in the promotion and development of schemes of agricultural co-operation.

Advantage should be taken of the facilities provided by the Agricultural Credits Act, 1923.

As announced in the Government's statement of agricultural policy, the period of operation of Section 2 of the Agricultural Credits Act, 1923, will not be extended after 31st July, 1926, but the preparation of a scheme on a sound commercial basis for providing credit facilities to agriculturists is receiving consideration.

15. (A) The State should provide loans on favourable terms to landlords for carrying out improvements and to tenants for purchasing their holdings.

15. (A) The Government have under consideration a scheme on a sound commercial basis for short-term credit for improvements and credit for land purchase.

(B) The further extension of land settlement should be preceded by a careful economic inquiry into the results obtained on existing small holdings.

(B) The Board of Agriculture for Scotland have under constant consideration the question of the economics of the policy of land settlement.

Recommendation.

Decision.

16. (A) In assessment for Income Tax purposes, expenditure on farm buildings and equipment and housing of agricultural workers should be allowed in the maintenance claim, as also the cost of reducing vermin and of eradicating bracken.

16. (A) NO action is contemplated at the present time, but the recommendation will be kept in view.

(B) Death duties have a very prejudicial effect on agriculture.

(B) Some relief is given to agricultural properties under Section 23 (1) of the Finance Act, 1925.

(C) The Agricultural Rates Acts should be continued; parish rates should be levied on the gross valuation without deduction; relief should be given to agricultural land in burghs; and the collection of rates should be simplified.

(C) Reference is made to the Rating (Scotland) Bill now before the House.

(D) The Ministry of Transport should make grants for the maintenance of those unclassified roads which carry a large amount of non-local traffic.

(D) The statement of the Government's making grants from the Road Fund towards the improvement of unclassified roads in rural areas will be continued and extended so far as possible. The Ministry of Transport propose to make grants up to £100,000 for work on selected unclassified roads in rural areas in Scotland.

(E) The law relating to the rating of grass parks should be amended.

(E) This will be kept in view in connection with any legislation to amend the law of valuation.

17. Assistance should be given for the equipment of ground for allotments.

17. The Allotments (Scotland) Act, 1926, enables local authorities to spend up to 1d. in the £ on the provision of allotments.

18. Summer Time should last for four months only, May, June, July, and August.

18. The Summer Time Act, 1925, which provides that "summer time" shall commence each year on the morning of the day next following the third Saturday in April (or, if that day is Easter Day, the day next following the second Saturday in April) and terminate on the morning of the day next following the first Saturday in October, was pasesd by Parliament after careful consideration of the whole question, including agricultural interests.

Questions

Anthracite Coal Seam, Bidefobd

asked the Secretary for Mines if his attention has been drawn to the discovery of a seam of anthracite coal near Bideford, Devon; and whether any steps to develop this seam have come to the knowledge of his Department?

I am aware that operations have been in progress in this neighbourhood with the object of opening out workable seams of anthracite.

Transport

Sugar-Beet Carting (Road Maintenance)

asked the Minister of Transport whether, in view of the complaints from county authorities that where sugar-beet factories have been established the condition of the

roads has been consistently aggravated by the extensive carting of beet sugar, he is arranging for an increased grant to be made to the local authorities for road maintenance in all such districts?

Before the right hon. Gentleman answers this question, may I ask whether the sentence in the question "the extensive carting of beet sugar" should not read "the extensive carting of sugar-beet?

I am not the censor of the form in which questions are put down, and I can only answer them as they are put to me. While I cannot accord preferential treatment to local authorities in whose neighbourhood sugar-beet factories are established, I hope that the large allocation made from the Road Fund during the current financial year for the benefit of rural roads will prove of assistance in the cases to which my hon. Friend refers.

Is it not a fact that the local authorities in these areas get the advantage of this increased rateable value?

Road Fund

asked the Minister of Transport what the total commitments upon the Road Fund amount to for the year 1925–26?

In addition to sums set aside towards meeting commitments already existing, the amount allocated from the Road Fund during 1925–26 for new commitments was £14,000,000, including £1,000,000 anticipated in the previous year for rural roads from the 1925–26 revenue. Out of this total, grants have been definitely promised or indicated to the amount of £13,694,189.

Can the Minister say if that shows any increase on the figures for 1924–25?

I think there is an increase, but I should like notice of that question.

Road-Making (Wages)

21 and 22.

asked the Minister of Transport (1) if any conditions are set out that public bodies such as county councils must pay rates of wages agreed upon by joint industrial councils when they are engaged upon work such as road-making for which the Ministry of Transport has made a grant of money;

(2) if he is aware that the Warwickshire County Council are paying the rate of 31s. per week to men engaged upon road-making; and is he prepared to withdraw the grant for this work, seeing that the Warwickshire County Council refuses to pay the rate agreed upon by the appropriate Joint Industrial Council?

My Department does not impose upon local authorities any conditions affecting the rates of wages to be paid to their employés on their ordinary works of road improvement and maintenance. There does not, therefore, appear to be any ground for the withdrawal of the grant mentioned.

Are we to understand that, while public money is being used in this way, the Minister of Transport takes no precaution to see that the Fair Wages Clause attaches to it?

What the hon. Member is to understand is that the local authorities are the people to decide these matters.

Post Office

Cash-On-Delivery Service

asked the Post master-General the number of cash-on-delivery parcels carried by his Department since this system was instituted?

The number of parcels carried under the inland cash-on-delivery system, from the inception of the service on the 29th March up to and including the 7th June, is 127,400. The service was suspended during the general strike.

Can the, Postmaster-General say how many of those were parcels that had any reference to agriculture?

Telephone Service

asked the Postmaster-General the total amount of unclaimed deposit money held by the telephone service from persons who have previously paid the same in advance on account of this service?

May I ask what steps are being taken to see that the depositors of this money get their money back?

Will the right hon. Gentleman say what those steps are? Are these people notified that they are to have this money back?

Yes. This money is only the result of accumulations where it has proved impossible to trace the depositors.

26, 27 and 28.

asked the Postmaster-General (1) how many persons have applied to be connected to the telephone service, and are at present waiting for installation;

(2) what sum of money was spent during the last financial year in advertising the telephone service in order to increase the number of subscribers;

(3) if, in view of the fact that the telephone service is profitable, he intends to try and secure an increased number of subscribers with a view to making the present service cheaper and more useful to present subscribers and to the community as a whole, seeing that a development will, besides helping to relieve un-employment, improve the efficiency of British business?

In the year ending 31st March last, 222,494 telephones were installed. During April, orders were obtained at the rate of over 5,300 per week, and at the end of that month, omitting those orders for which subscribers were not then ready for service, there were in hand 13,600 orders, representing lees than three weeks' work. At the same date, some 800 applications for service were outstanding which could not be met pending the completion of certain engineering works. Telephone publicity work is carried out by a canvassing staff of about 400 and by the exhibition of posters, the distribution of leaflets and booklets through the post, from Post Office counters and through the agency of canvassers. The wages and commission paid to the canvassing staff in the year 1925–26 amounted to about £136,000, but part of this sum is chargeable to other duties which the staff perform.

Will my right hon. Friend consider initiating a really big campaign with a view to putting the telephone within the reach of persons who cannot now afford it, or do not know of its immense advantages?

I am fully desirous of extending the service in every way possible, but I would remind my hon. and gallant Friend that I am at the present moment spending £1,000,000 a month on development.

Has the right hon. Gentleman consulted the President of the Board of Education, whom I see beside him, as to the use of the schools for the purpose of giving a little practical instruction in regard to the telephone?

Sub-Office, Pembroke Street, Devonport

asked the Postmaster-General whether he will further consider the re-opening of the Pembroke Street Post Office, Devonport, in view of the petition sent by the inhabitants of that district protesting against the inconvenience caused?

The business transacted at the sub-office in question was small, and was almost entirely drawn from the district between Pembroke Street and Fore Street, the principal shopping centre. The district is reported to be conveniently served by the1 branch office in Fore Street, and I am sorry that I can find no sufficient grounds for re-establishing the Pembroke Street Post Office.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the majority of the clientele, though small in number, were old age pensioners, who find some difficulty in walking?

Questions

WAR PENSIONER'S FAMILY ALLOWANCE (Mr. J. REID)

asked the Minister of Pensions whether he is aware that James Reid, Larkhall, Lanarkshire, Ministry Reference 1/MR/3, 108 (PL), has had the allowance, payable in addition to pension for wife and child, withdrawn though the same had been paid for several years under the regime of previous Ministers; and is he aware that Mr. Reid was wounded in 1914, certified for permanent service at home, was married in 1915, passed fit for service overseas in 1917 and sent to France, taking part in the Battle of Arras and other engagements, being wounded again in April, 1918; and whether, in view of the fact that Mr. Reid was passed fit for active service two years after marriage and drew separation allowances until after the Armistice, he will authorise the issue of allowances for the family, as Mr. Reid is in receipt of a life pension based in part on the disability resulting from the wound in 1918?

I have carefully considered the circumstances of Mr. Reid's case, but I regret that it is not possible to grant family allowances. The wound which has given rise to much the greater part of Mr. Reid's disablement, and without which he would not be in receipt of pension at all, was sustained before his marriage. The Royal Warrant expressly excludes from the definition of a wife, in respect of whom allowance can be granted, "a wife whose marriage to the man took place after the receipt of the wound for which he receives pension."

Foot-And-Mouth Disease

asked the Minister of Agriculture the estimated total loss to the country and to the agricultural industry by outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease in recent years; and if he can make any statement as to the progress of the different national and international investigations to discover a remedy?

So far as the cost to public funds is concerned, the loss due to foot-and-mouth disease since January, 1922, has amounted to, approximately, £4,750,000. This figure does not take account of consequential losses of farmers and others, of which it is impossible to form any estimate. With regard to the last part of the question, it is improbable that any practical means of immunising animals against foot-and-mouth disease will be found until a means for cultivating the virus has been discovered, and it is to this aspect of the subject that research, both at home and abroad, is being directed. I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the Progress Report of the Foot-and-Mouth Disease Research Committee, published last year.

Are there complete arrangements between the different national and international investigations?

Oh, yes; and we are publishing a further Progress Report in September of this year, which will give my hon. and gallant Friend further information.

Housing, Plymouth

asked the Minister of Health what steps have been taken by his Department in connection with the Plymouth housing shortage?

My right hon. Friend has recently had some local investigation made into the possibilities of dealing with the situation, and the whole matter is engaging his attention. He is not, however, in a position to make any statement at present.

Seeing that the hon. Gentleman's attention has been engaged on this matter for a very considerable time, could he say when it is thought that some practical steps will be taken to deal with this very great shortage?

As the hon. Gentleman knows, the matter is very complex and difficult, but no time will be lost if a solution can be found.

Fighting Services (Medical Officers)

asked the Prime Minister if the Government have arrived at any decision as to the recruiting of medical officers for the Navy, Army and Air Force?

Yes, Sir. The Government have considered the Report of the Committee appointed last autumn to consider questions relating to pay and other matters affecting recruitment of officers and nurses to the medcial branches of the Fighting Services, and have decided to give effect to its recommendations as from 1st July next.

Are the Government contemplating the amalgamation of the three medical services, in the interests of economy and efficiency?

Not that I am aware of, but I should require notice of that question.

The necessary Orders are, I understand, going to be published forthwith, and I assume that they will give the information required.

Betting Duty (Staff)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what extra staff, approximately, will be required to carry on the administration of the proposed tax on betting?

Apart from headquarters, the work will be performed by the local Customs and Excise staff along with their other duties so far as the duty is paid on returns. It is contemplated that the police will co-operate with the Revenue authorities in the Revenue control of bookmakers on racecourses, but whether and to what extent this will necessitate the employment of extra police cannot be indicated pending discussions with the police authorities. The number of extra Customs and Excise staff required cannot be forecast with accuracy, but on present information it is probable that the extra Revenue staff that would be required would number from 150 to 200, at a cost not exceeding £80,000. These figures exclude the cost of the police assistance, but the total cost should be below the figure of £150,000 a year which was furnished to the Select Committee of 1923.

If the right hon. Gentleman is recruiting special officers for racecourse duties during the racing season, will he consider recruiting officers with special knowledge of racing and betting?

I will see that that suggestion is brought to the notice of the authorities.

Kenya (Government Land Sales)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that in offering for sale certain plots of land in the town the Mombasa District Committee have stipulated that though Indians may purchase the plots and build thereon they shall not reside in them; and whether, in view of the non-segregation policy laid down in the White Paper of July, 1923, he will have the matter inquired into?

I would refer to the reply given to the similar question asked by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) on 10th June.

Turkey (Debt Settlement)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, seeing that the Iraq boundary question is now settled, he will proceed to open negotiations with the Turkish Government on the settlement of their debt?

The settlement of Turkey's obligations in respect of the Ottoman Public Debt is a matter to be dealt with by direct negotiations between the Turkish Government and the foreign bondholders. It is the intention of His Majesty's Government, in concert with the other Governments concerned, to support the just claims of the bondholders in the matter.

Casual Wards

asked the Minister of Health how many casual wards closed down during the period of the War; how many have not been reopened since the end of the War; how many of these wards have been closed since the year ending 31st December, 1919; will he take the necessary steps to have an inspection made of the Malton and Amersham wards; is he aware that, although there is a continual number of destitute persons passing through Penrith, the casual ward in that union is closed; and can he inform the House why, when the need is so great, the guardians have closed this establishment?

235 casual wards were closed on various dates during the War. Sixty-five of these have not been reopened. Sixteen further wards have been closed as from a date subsequent to 31st December, 1919. In seven of these cases the closing has been approved for a definite and limited period. Both the Malton and Amersham wards have recently been inspected. My right hon. Friend is aware that the Penrith wards are nominally closed, but in fact no destitute casual is refused admission to those wards. He is considering whether a formal reopening of the ward is desirable.

Landed Properties (Limited Companies)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been drawn to the formation of companies for the purpose of controlling landed properties; and whether, as the formation of such companies is likely to result in diminished returns in taxation on such properties, he will take steps to safeguard the revenue in this respect?

As stated in answer to a question put to me on 29th April, 1926, by the hon. Member for North-East Bethnal Green, my attention has been drawn to cases of the type referred to. The effect on the Revenue is being carefully watched.

Is it not the case, supposing all the land was nationalised, that the right hon. Gentleman has always the super-rich to fall back upon and tax to the very utmost, which I know he has delight in doing?

If all the land were nationalised, we should find a great falling off in revenue.

Is it not the case that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has recourse to the super-rich and he could tax them if necessary, which he has a delight in doing, out of existence?

Government Departments

Chemists (Pay)

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury if his attention has been drawn to the decision of the Industrial Court in connection with the Government chemists, who are employed upon an agreed scale of pay; if he is aware that the Department sought to reduce the agreed amount of increments of the scale; that the Court stated that it was high handed action on the part of the Department, and that the Department should have taken the matter to Court before taking any administrative action; and if he can give any reasons why the Department departed from the usual course of procedure?

I have seen the decision of the Industrial Court on a claim brought before them by the staff side of the Departmental Whitley Council of the Government Laboratory regarding the rate of annual increment of chemists, Class II, in that Department, by which the Court confirm, as from the date of their award, the view of the official side of the council. The hon. Member is under a misapprehension in describing the increment and scale as agreed amounts, and the Court did not state that the action of the Department was high-handed. With regard to the last part of the question, I am unable to accept the view implied by the hon. Member that the procedure adopted was irregular.

Stationery Office (Mr. F. O. Freeman)

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury if he is aware that Mr. F. O. Freeman, overseer of the white paper warehouse at His Majesty's Stationery Office, Harrow, who came out on strike in response to the call of his trade union, has not been taken back; if he is aware that Mr. Freeman has a long record of service for his country in various branches of the Army; and if, in these circumstances, he will endeavour to see that further employment is found for this man?

Mr. Freeman's position was that of foreman in the paper store of His Majesty's Stationery Office Press, Harrow, and his wage was £5 5s. a week. In Mr. Freeman's absence on strike it became necessary to appoint another employéto this post. The work has been carried out satisfactorily, and it is not proposed to displace the present occupant in favour of Mr. Freeman. He has, however, been offered further employment at the press—as a cutter at a wage of £4 2s. 6d, a week—but he has not yet accepted the offer.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this very old soldier who has now been victimised had his photograph used for recruiting purposes all over the country during the War, and does the right hon. Gentleman recognise the photograph?

I do not recognise the photograph, but I think the facts the hon. Member has disclosed make it more unintelligible than ever why he left his work.

Is there any reason why these men who were loyal during the strike and those who volunteered should be victimised to make places for those who went out on strike?

Did not this man fail in his loyalty to the State, who were his employers, and will the right hon. Gentleman see, if he is taken on in some other capacity, that something is done which will prevent his failing in his loyalty to the State again?

Royal Mint (Discharges)

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that permanently disabled ex-service men have been discharged from the Royal Mint, and that the principle of last comers being the first to be discharged has not been carried out; that the officials of the Royal Mint admit that in the case of one man, with eight years and four months' service, there is no complaint as to his ability to perform his work, yet they refuse to give this man priority consideration for a restart when work increases; and what is the reason why the Government has departed from its pledge to give priority of employment to ex-service disabled men in this case?

Only one disabled ex-service man has recently been discharged from the Mint. Preference is given as far as possible to disabled ex-service men, but, subject to this rule, it is the practice to regulate discharges and re-engagements of temporary staff at the Mint with reference to efficiency rather than length of service, and for this reason I regret that in the case of the man referred to, it has not been possible to give him priority of consideration for re-employment.

If this man has been in the service of the Royal Mint for so many years, why is it only now that they find that he is inferior to the other people whom they are taking on?

Because it has been necessary to reduce the staff. A considerable reduction has taken place, and it is necessary to keep those who are most efficient.

Why is it that, these men having been discharged during the general strike, preference is being shown to certain people who were not service men?

I do not recognise the facts as implied by the hon. Member. If he has any further questions dealing with the facts, perhaps he will put them on the Paper.

I think only this one disabled ex-service man. There may be others who were not disabled.

Will the Government apply the same ruling in regard to all other Departments?

Questions

Rag Flock (1911) Amendment

I beg to move, however, is important, and arises out of a flaw in the Bill which was introduced by the right hon. John Burns in 1911. That Bill was primarily intended to provide that nobody should make raw flocks out of dirty, filthy rags extracted from middens and brought from Asiatic countries and all over the world.

The Rag Flock Act has been fairly well administered, but recently it has been impossible to administer it because of the varying decisions of the magistrates. Perhaps I might explain to the House that in the process of making woollens there is a flock which sinks to the bottom of the bowl when the flock is being scoured. As the result of being scoured with a certain kind of soap alkali it leaves 30 parts per 100,000 of chlorines, which are soluble, and which is taken by the Ministry of Health to be the test of whether the material is clean. It is in order to allow the trade an opportunity of putting their flocks on the market without being prosecuted that this Bill is introduced. Flocks which are extracted from blanket making are the highest possible form of flocks that can be produced, yet in some cases they contain at least one hundred parts per one hundred thousand of soluble chlorines. It is to remove this anomaly that I am introducing the Bill, and I hope that it will get a Second Reading without any difficulty at a subsequent stage.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Mackinder, Sir John Simon, Sir Frank Nelson, Dr. Vernon Davies, Mr. Riley, and Mr. James Hudson.

Rag Flock Act (1911) Amendment Bill,

"to amend the Rag Flock Act, 1911," presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Tuesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 126.]

Execution of Diligence (Scotland) Bill [Lords],

Reported, with Amendments, from the Standing Committee on Scottish Bills.

Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed.

Bill, as amended ( in the Standing Committee ), to be taken into consideration upon Monday next, and to be printed [Bill 124.]

Vaccination Bill

"to amend the Law relating to compulsory Vaccination," presented by Mr. GROVES; supported by Mr. Viant, Mr. Broad, Mr. Westwood, Mr. March, Mr. Bromley, Mr. Beckett, Mr. Palin, Mr. David Grenfell, Mr. Hardie, Mr. Scrymgeour, and Mr. Windsor; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 125.]

Message from the Lords

That they have agreed to,—

Doncaster Corporation Bill, with Amendments.

That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to empower the Manchester Ship Canal Company to construct railways and divert a footpath; to provide for the sub-division of the shares of the company; and for other purposes."[Manchester Ship Canal (General Powers) Bill [ Lords. ]

Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to authorise the Falmouth Docks and Engineering Company to construct a new dry dock; and for other purposes." [Falmouth Docks Bill [ Lords. ]

And also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to appoint new trustees of certain lands, tenements, and hereditaments vested in the Mayor, Aldermen, and Burgesses of the Borough of Berwick-upon-Tweed; to make further provisions with respect to the said lands, tenements, and hereditaments; and for other purposes." [Berwick-upon-Tweed Corporation (Freemen) Bill [ Lords. ]

Manchester Ship Canal (General Powers) Bill [ Lords ],

Falmouth Docks Bill [ Lords ],

Berwick-upon-Tweed Corporation (Freemen) Bill [ Lords ],

Read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

Selection (Standing Committees)

Standing Committee D

Mr. WILLIAM NICHOLSON reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Members from Standing Committee D: Mr. Roy Bird and Sir Harry Brittain; and had appointed in substitution: Lieut.-Colonel Headlam and Lieut.-Colonel Heneage.

Report to lie upon the Table.

Orders of the Day

Supply

[11TH ALLOTTED DAY.]

Considered in Committee.

[Mr. JAMES HOPE in the Chair.]

Civil Services and Revenue Departments' Estimates, 1926–27

Class II

Mines Department of the Board of Trade

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That a sum, not exceeding £117,130, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1927, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Mines Department of the Board of Trade."— [Note: £73,500 has been voted on account.]

Coal Trade Dispute

Government Proposals

Prime Minister's Speech

Before we enter upon the Debate, may I put a question similar to that which I put when the Debate was opened a week ago? According to the Ruling that is generally made on occasions like this, it is impossible to make reference to legislation, but you were good enough on the previous occasion to take the view that it would be for the convenience of the House that that Ruling should be a little bit relaxed. Will you be good enough to observe the same slight laxity on the occasion of this Debate, as it is merely a continuation of the last one?

The Debate in substance though not in form is a continuation of the previous one, and in those circumstances if objection be not taken, I shall be willing to allow reference to be made to legislation as well as to administration.

May I take it that you are not going back on the practice of the House, namely, that if objection be taken these references cannot be made?

The hon. and gallant Member is well seized of that Rule, and he is one of its ablest enforcers. If he were to object, I should have no option but to adhere to the Rule; but if no objection be taken, I think we may proceed on the same lines as in the previous Debate.

The last question which has been put, has brought very pleasantly before the House the fact that the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain Benn) is back once more, and I would like to say how pleased we all are to see him in his place. In view of the gravity of this Debate, following on the Debate we had a week or two ago, it must have been a source of great satisfaction to the hon. Member for Shipley (Mr. Mackinder) to note the facility with which he obtained permission to introduce his Bill. I have noticed that on occasions when the House is anxious to proceed to a particular discussion, there is no subject on which an hon. Member cannot succeed in getting a First Reading for his Bill.

I think the House will be grateful to you, Mr. Hope, for your ruling, because, although this House cannot in cases such as the present dispute impose a settlement, a Debate conducted, as I hope this Debate will be, with a full sense of responsibility attaching to what each of us may say, may at this time be of some assistance to those who will be responsible for negotiations, when the time for negotiation arises. It may be that the general tenor of the Debate may expedite the day, which we all hope to see, when an agreement may be reached.

The stoppage in the coal industry is now in its seventh week, a long period in any case, although unfortunately in this particular industry we have known more than one case, I think several cases, in which struggles have been protracted even to a considerable extent beyond the length of the present dispute. None of us need to be reminded either by the Press or by our friends of the gravity of the situation, of the unemployment, of the distress; these things are never out of our minds. The loss and the damage—and let me just speak of that for a moment—which are being inflicted both on the industry itself and on industries which consume coal are crippling in their effect and, if continued much longer, must lead in many cases to disaster. Works are closing, factories will have to cease working, and stocks are being slowly exhausted. We are bound to some extent while the struggle lasts to import coal from abroad. Large amounts on private account have arrived in this country, and the Government have been obliged to place orders for the maintenance of essential supplies, but only the small essential services can look forward for this direct assistance, and stocks must be eked out to all the others to the best advantage.

I have never concealed my opinion that this particular stoppage is a cruel stoppage for the country, and I would add—what hon. Members opposite will not agree with, I fear—that it is a stoppage without real justification. Whatever may be thought of that, there is one absolutely certain result, and that is that it will leave everyone worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. The Commissioners declared that a disaster was impending over the industry unless certain things were done. Instead of co-operating wholeheartedly to do these things, the parties have preferred to fight. Had they agreed with the Government on the 24th March to stand firmly on the Report, we might to-day have made some advance with laying the foundations of a new prosperity. Men would have been back at work, and our foreign competitors would not have been capturing our markets. I shall make no attempt to apportion the blame for this subbornness, this folly. I shall address myself once more to the task of trying to suggest ways of escaping from it and returning to a common sense which alone can save the situation.

The fundamental features of the position as it exists to-day I think we should review for a few moments. As I have said more than once—not with reference to this dispute but with reference to disputes generally—one of your difficulties arises from this fact, that there are so many men of warm hearts who will not face the facts, and a number of men who will face the facts but whose hearts are less warm. I do not know which of the two sets do the more harm. When you get a combination -of them, look out for trouble. I ask the House to consider once more—and this is fundamental—the position in which the industry is placed and its prospects. I do not ask the House to agree with all I am going to say as I go along. The purpose of the Debate to-day is for discussion, and I am putting forward the position as it appears to me. For reasons which I have given in previous Debates, our difficulties arise largely from the fact that for the period immediately preceding 1924 the prosperity of the coal trade rested on an artificial basis. When those artificial props were removed and the continental competition was revived in an aggravated form, prices fell persistently and consistently until we reached the crisis of last year.

The conditions of the trade were analysed at great length, and I think with great accuracy and care, in the Report of the Royal Commission. The price fell until, quite apart from the subsidy, it was below the cost of production in every district in this country but one. As the Report itself states, 73 per cent, of the output of the country was being produced at a loss. In the exporting districts the condition was worse. In Scotland 88 tons out of every 1O0 were raised at a loss, the subsidy apart, during the December quarter of last year; 9o tons out of every 100 in South Wales, 97 tons out of every 100 in Durham, and every single ton in Northumberland. These figures were given in answer to a question by my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford (Mr. S. Roberts) and, as the Report truly remarked, unless steps were taken to deal with this situation, disaster was impending over the industry. Since that date, instead of there being any revival, the outlook has become worse. The only areas, I think, in the quarter ending March which show any profit at all are the Eastern area and a small district of Somersetshire, and competition abroad shows no signs of improvement. It is therefore clear, as was stated in the Report, that some immediate relief is necessary to the industry, and, if such relief were not provided, I would read the phrase from the Report in which the Commission indicated what in their view the position would be:

A great deal has been said about the reorganisation of the industry. It is sometimes stated, I think generally by those who have not an intimate acquaintence with the industry, that the whole management of the industry is inefficient. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden) said a fortnight ago that everyone knows that the coal industry has been brought to its present condition by the incompetence of those who control it. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I see that that view is not without support. The Leader of the Opposition, who did not go as far as that, held up for our admiration, by way of contrast, the management of mines in Germany and France. Let us admit at once that the coal industry might be better organised. There is no industry in the world of which that might not be said. But let us remember that, in spite of the recommendations of the Report, the Report does warn the public against exaggerating. There is no greater danger than exaggeration in these things, and for this reason: The mere fact of exaggeration is so apt to rouse in people's breasts hopes "which cannot be fulfilled. That is the great danger. We must recognise when things can be improved, but do not let us be carried away into thinking that mere mechanical improvements themselves can absolutely revolutionise the whole industry.

The coal industry is like many others in this. You have some places where there is inefficiency; you have many places where there is efficiency. I should doubt very much whether there are more efficient plants in any country than we find amongst some of the pits that we have to show. It is only fair to our own countrymen to say that, while acknowledging at the same time that in this country as in many others there are many pits and old pits where a great improvement might be carried out. But let us consider what it was that the Report itself said on this subject. Hon. Members who are familiar with the Report will remember a passage in which the owners were criticised for making certain observations on the failings of the miners. Those are not to the point at the moment, but I mention that to show the unbiased way in which the Report was dealing with complaints that the Commission had received from both parties. But when they come to this question of the allegations of inefficiency, the Commission say: the men, which offer, the House will remember, was rejected. The Government are prepared to try to help in every improvement in the industry that can increase its productivity and its power to pay wages; but I repeat that to exaggerate the lower cost which can be got by reorganisation is, I fear, laying up possible disappointments in the future. No one can say, until certain methods or reorganisation have been tried, what the cash value of those methods is. This was one of the subjects which I have more than once discussed with certain members of the Miners' Federation, and when we got to the point no one would say definitely, despite a certain amount of vague talk, what the methods might mean in cash. All I can say is that we will try and we will see.

It is very unfair, however, to make, or to try to make, men believe that there are large reservoirs of untapped wealth in reorganisation, so as to make them feel that there is no necessity to face the appallingly difficult situation which is presented with such clarity in the Report of the Royal Commission. Let me remind the House of words which have often been heard, but which I think it useful to quote once again from the Report:

The one main outstanding feature of the Report, besides its presentation of the state of the industry, coupled with recommendations for reorganisation, was the recommendation made, however reluctantly, that there must be a reduction in the labour cost. It recommended, quite specifically, a change in the minimum rates with certain suggestions, on which I do not propose to say anything now, as to special district rates, and so on, which I know found very little favour. The particular words are these:

Let me make another point to try to clear out minds of misapprehensions which are not uncommon. In the first place, it will be remembered that the Commission recommended, or expressed a desire, that, whatever changes were made in wages, the wages of the lowest paid men should be safeguarded by a continuance of the system of subsistence allowances. With that view I entirely agree. Secondly, when people talk about minimum rates, they seem to think that these are necessarily the wages actually paid. That is not necessarily so. It tends to be so in bad times, it is quite true, but the minimum wage is a wage below which the figure shall not fall. It is a rate below which wages cannot go, which must be paid if the mine is to work. Suppose a pit is losing money, it has two alternatives. It must either pay this wage and carry on and make the best it can of the loss, if it is a rich company, until times are better, or, if it has exhausted its means of carrying on, then it must stop. There is no other alternative, but when trade becomes prosperous, when there is a profit, then the miners are entitled to 87 per cent, of the profits.

No doubt the mining Members of the House of Commons are well aware of these facts, but people who are not familiar with this very curious and difficult system of assessing wages undoubtedly are apt to think that the minimum wage means in fact the highest wage which is paid. That, of course, is not correct. At times, of course, the wage is a great deal higher. I remember when the 1921 agreement was come to, although I had little to do with it myself, I did feel, and I feel now, that it contained a principle of enormous importance to the mining community in that division of profits or profit-sharing, and there is nothing I regret more than that in the years which have passed since that agreement came into force, the whole condition of trade has tended to go against that agreement, and has prevented it being shown what a good thing it really was in essence, and what possibilities it contained in itself for bettering the condition of the people affected by it.

I come back, having made those observations, to consider the relief needed to be given to the industry and the relief which the Report pointed out was to be given by a sacrifice. I believe I have with me in this matter, I will not say the support of the whole party opposite, but the support of several of them, because I think it has been made plain by public statements that attempts were made to persuade the miners' leaders that they ought to make some concession. Attempts, I believe, were made by the Leader of the Opposition and by the members of the Trade Union Council. [HON. MEMBERS: "When?"] During the negotiations. That was the rock on which we split and that was discussed at great length in the House of Commons. Clearly, in doing so, they must have recognised that the situation of the industry demanded a willingness to face some form of concession or they would not have urged it upon those responsible.

That is another thing. What alternative is there?

A counsel of despair has come from the miners' leaders. I gather from the Press and from the general conversations which took place at the last meeting between the miners' leaders and the owners that suggestions were made that the home prices of coal should be raised and that, even though such a course might lead to enormous numbers of men being thrown out of work, yet it was better that that should happen than that there should be any consideration of any concession. That point of view was put to me in the course of the negotiations, and I do ask hon. Members to consider whether they can possibly entertain it as an alternative solution? I ask from the point of view of the miners themselves. It is a very serious thing to face with a light heart the closing down of whole areas whose very existence depends on the prosperity of the main trade in that district. Not only that, hut the hardships inflicted by such a course of action on other industries, which have suffered for a longer time than the mining industry in the matter of unemployment, would be very considerable. I cannot think that we really have to come to a policy of this kind to help us in this matter.

4.0 P.M.

From what I have said, I think hon. Members will realise that I myself and I think most of those who sit in all parts of the House of Commons, have no liking for wage reductions as such. It is quite clear to those who have studied the Report that if wage reductions were to be made on existing hours they would have to be on such a scale, if the industry were to be carried on in many parts of the country, that no-one would like to see such wages offered. The conditions of the industry-to-day—or, we will say, when the stoppage took place—are so bad that the minimum rate on a seven hours' day, if a fixed and universal minimum were made, would be one which it would be almost impossible, I think, to ask the industry to accept. It is for that reason that we have come, quite definitely, to the conclusion that the return to a longer working day is necessary.

I ask the Committee to listen to the reasons that I am going to put forward.

I do not know whether it is worth my saying to the Committee that no-one has forced anything on me at all.

After I have finished what I have to say, it will be open to anyone to criticise what I have said, and to use other arguments. I say that I regard this form of sacrifice—and I am giving my opinion—as the preferable alternative to the greater sacrifice of wages. I have no power, as I have said all along, to compel any settlement. [ Interruption. ] I am going to develop my argument to the best of my ability.

It means another 10 weeks of it, if we are going to have arguments like that.

Economies can be made which would admit of a far better wage being paid than would be possible under the costs incurred in a seven-hours' day. I would add, though I do not expect hon. Members opposite to believe me, that, in coming to the conclusion that I have, I have been influenced first and foremost by the interests of the men themselves, because such stress has been laid, and rightly laid, on the maintenance of the standard of living, and I want to see if it be possible by negotiation to maintain, or very nearly to maintain, that standard in a way that cannot be done under the existing system of hours. So we intend to leave the Seven Hours Act upon the Statute Book, but to introduce legislation to enable an extra hour to be worked during a period of time. This does not prescribe longer hours of work, but it does permit serious negotiations to be entered into on a basis upon which it is obvious that a far better scale of wages can be paid than upon the existing basis. [HON. MEMBERS: "Shame!"]

And I would remind hon. Members that all points of view will be represented later.

It was said a few minutes ago that this course was thrust upon me by the mineowners. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] Let me tell hon. Members why I am making the suggestion now, and did not make it a month ago. I did not make the suggestion before for the reason that I was not going to be responsible even for recommending this House to make it possible to negotiate inside the extended period until I was perfectly certain that the liberty to make those negotiations would not be abused by the owners. I may say that a month ago, and more than a month ago, I myself felt, without any communication with anyone on the subject, that, so far as I could see, by far the easiest way to resume negotiations would be on the matter of hours, because there and there alone could I see that an agreement might be reached which would safeguard at any rate the existing wage over the greater part of the country, and to that I attach very great value. But I have received positive assurances from the owners that on the basis of an eight hours' day—I have not received them myself, but one or two of my colleagues received them, before I would consent to introduce this change which I am advocating this afternoon—there are certain districts, producing approximately half the output of the country, in which the men will be offered a continuance of their existing wages for July, August and September, and that over more than half the rest of the country the reduction asked, if one is asked at all, will be something materially less than the 10 per cent, drop, that the offer already made by the owners—

on the eight hours' basis contemplated as a maximum, and the men during July, August and September will be guaranteed that wage. I am only reading to the House the probable lines of negotiation, if negotiations be possible, and that, of course, remains to be seen. During this period the Government will press on with their reorganisation legislation, and the owners will take all possible steps to make effective such proposals of the Commissioners as may be necessary to leave no ground for doubt that the men will get all that is due to them under the wages ascertainments. After these three months, the wages will be based on the ascertained proceeds of the industry in the ordinary way, October being based on July and August, and it may reasonably be hoped that over a substantial portion of the industry the wage rate may still be maintained, if not actually increased. In any case, under the proposal already made by the owners, they could not in any district fall below the 1921 minimum, which, the owners point out, having regard to the change in the cost of living, would now give a real wage 30 per cent, higher than at the time when it was agreed five years ago, and would meet the claim for a national settlement.

I will now re-state the position of the Government with regard to reorganisation. We have in preparation a Bill, which we hope to introduce in a few days, to give effect to those recommendations of the Commission, requiring legislation, which we think it may be possible to pass into law this Session, and which are likely to have an immediate effect on the industry. The scope of the existing Mines (Working Facilities) Act, which enables rights -to be obtained compulsorily by application to the Railway and Canal Commission, is limited in two important respects. An applicant for rights to work minerals must be a person (or company) which already has some legal interest in the minerals applied for, or, where the minerals are of small amount, in adjacent minerals, and he must be able to show that the minerals applied for are in danger of being left permanently unworked for certain specified reasons. It is proposed to substitute Clauses which will allow any person to obtain any rights to promote or facilitate the working of any minerals, providing the Railway and Canal Commission are satisfied that it is in the national interest he should have them.

With regard to amalgamation, we follow closely the Report of the Commission. In that part of the Bill, it will deal with three main sets of circumstances. Where two or more colliery undertakings have agreed to amalgamate, either wholly or for special purposes, in such cases they may submit their case, through the Mines Department, to the Railway and Canal Commission for approval. The approval of the Court, duly obtained, would be a protection against third parties, and, in other respects, would facilitate the completion of the scheme. Where one or more colliery undertakings want to combine wholly or partly with one or more colliery undertakings but cannot secure agreement, in such a case an application is to lie, through the Mines Department, to the Railway and Canal Commission for an order compulsorily giving effect to a scheme whereby the respondent undertaking (or undertakings) is wholly or partially absorbed by the applicant undertaking. Full provision is made to secure proper opportunities being afforded to all interested parties to have their views put before the Court before an order is made. In accordance with the Commission's recommendations, we do not propose to entrust immediately any power to any authority outside the industry to impose amalgamation upon them, but the Bill will contain a Clause carrying out the Commission's proposal, that, if it should be found after a period of three years that the process of amalgamation which they consider desirable is not taking place quickly enough, the Mines Department will have the right to take the initiative. [An HON. MEMBER: "No sacrifice by the owners!"]

Every person (or persons) who pays Mineral Rights Duty in respect of receipts from coal, and every person (or body) who would pay such a duty, but for exemption—for instance, the Crown—is to be required to pay another sum of the same amount by way of Mineral Rights Welfare Levy. That will be devoted primarily to the question of pithead baths, and, after such time as this demand is satisfied, that sum will be available for general welfare. With regard to restrictions on employment, the proposal is that no colliery undertaking shall be allowed, except with the consent of the Minister of Labour, to engage any person over 18 years for employment on the getting, handling, or preparation of coal for disposal, except a person who was similarly employed in April last, or, if unemployed at that date, was so employed when last in regular employment. There are other proposals of the Commission for which legislation is not necessary or on which further study is required before legislation can be introduced. I refer now to the National Fuel and Power Council, the committees on railway wagons, on selling syndicates, on profit sharing schemes, and family allowances, the project for the establishment of pit committees, the plans for the assistance of men displaced from collieries, and the committee on housing in colliery districts. With all these we are pressing on as rapidly as possible, and we hope to make definite announcements before very long.

With regard to the temporary assistance which was promised to the industry, if a settlement be come to on any such lines as I have indicated, there cannot be any district in which the reduction of wages would be so drastic that it would justify the Government in calling upon the taxpayer to ease the adjustment. In that case, the money available, as indicated by the Chancellor, and to which I referred in my speech about a fortnight or three weeks ago, amounting to something like £3,000,000, if my memory serves me, would be available for the industry and be far more usefully spent mainly in assisting to meet the needs of miners displaced from the pits. I have laid before the Committee the steps which the Government propose to take by legislation and otherwise. Whether a settlement be reached or not, we are going on. [HON. MEMBERS: "YOU are going out!"] The responsibility for a settlement rests, as it always has rested, on the two interested parties, and I hope they recognise the grave responsibility that rests upon anyone who continues to place any obstacle in the way of resumption of agreement. I hope those two parties, even now, may get together and attempt to reach an agreement by negotiation and by treaty rather than carry on this unhappy dispute to its bitter end.

I am quite certain that every Member of this Committee will endorse the statement of the Prime Minister in his opening remarks that the situation of this country to-day is really serious in the extreme. Everybody who knows the real position in the coal trade will now say that, grave as the situation was before that speech was delivered, its gravity has been enormously increased. I deeply regret that it has not fallen to my lot to congratulate the Prime Minister. Nothing would have given me greater pleasure than to have stood here this afternoon and congratulated the Prime Minister on having propounded proposals, if not for an immediate settlement of this dispute, at any rate, proposals which might have led in the near future to an amicable settlement. But I regret to say that I definitely came to the conclusion, as the Prime Minister proceeded, stage by stage and step by step, that, difficult as the position has been all along, every utterance he made, every proposal he set forward, has simply added to the serious difficulty of the situation. Boiled down to a sentence, the Prime Minister still adheres to the proposal and the idea, which he and the Government appear to have been harbouring for a long time, that the only hope of solving the coal problem lies along the lines of reduced wages and an increased working day. I want to say that I am going to contend and, I hope, to prove, not merely that the miners cannot be induced to accept lower wages or work longer hours, but that, even if they would accept both, the problem is of such a character that it cannot possibly be solved by such proposals.

Whether hon. Members believe it or not, I am going to base every statement I make upon facts and figures contained in the Report of the Coal Commission, and not necessarily in the first Volume only. I was rather surprised to hear one hon. Member, at Question Time, suggesting that two chapters of the Blue Book should be circulated in pamphlet form to illustrate or give to the public an idea of the coal problem summarily. As a matter of fact, nobody can understand the coal problem if they devote the days which the hon. Member said are necessary to read even through that Report. If they want to understand the problem, they have to get down to Volume 3, containing about 500 pages and possessing all the statistics relating to the mining industry, and any statements that I make will be based upon the facts and figures contained in that document. I say that those statistics prove conclusively that the character of the coal problem is such that it is not possible to solve it by means of wage reductions and of lengthening the working day. I will go further and say that, not only can you not solve the coal problem by either of those two methods, but you cannot solve it by district as opposed to national agreements, and, above all, it is a problem of such a character that it cannot possibly be fought out. Of all the suggestions made for settling this dispute, the most imbecile of them all is the suggestion, "Let us fight it to a finish." It simply cannot be fought out, and we must get to know the real nature of the problem before we can understand and appreciate the value of any suggestions that are made for its solution.

I propose to go back to the coal situation last July, when the Government determined to subsidise the industry for nine months, and I want to illustrate the nature of the problem negatively and positively. If anyone will turn to page 218 of Volume 3 of the Coal Commission's Report, they will find there an analysis of the coal situation dealing with the industry as a whole for four different periods. The last period relates to the six months immediately preceding the adoption of the subsidy. Taking that period, the position was this, that on every ton of coal sold in this country during those six months there was a loss of 3d. That was the position which the Government found in the industry when they took it in hand last July, that there was a loss of 3d. on every ton of coal produced. If the coal industry had been unified, that is to say, if it had been under common ownership—and I do not mean for the moment, for the purpose of this argument, on a national basis or under State ownership, but if it had been under a trust or a syndicate, if it were unified under either private or public ownership—the problem presented by the coal industry last July would have been simply this: How can you convert a business that is losing 3d. per ton into a paying proposition?

I say that that is a very simple proposition, and it is one to which at least a dozen different solutions can be proposed. I will name two or three of them, and I have a purpose in dealing with this particular question which will appear in a moment. You might say: "We will subsidise the industry to the extent of Is. 3d. per ton." That would have wiped out the 3d. loss and have converted the whole industry into a paying proposition" to the extent of 1s. per ton. You might have said: "Reduce wages1 by 10 per cent." It is estimated that that would reduce the cost by 1s. 3d. per ton, and that would have wiped out the lose and given Is. per ton profit. You might have said: "Put up the price of coal on an average by 1s. 3d. per ton." That would have had the same effect. You might have said: "Work an eight hours' day." The owners estimate that an eight hours' day would reduce the cost by Is. Ll½d. per ton, and that would have wiped out the lose and secured a profit of 1s. 8d. a ton on the whole industry. That would have been the position in the industry if that had been the problem with which we had to deal, and that would have been the problem under a unified industry.

But now I want to show what the actual problem is, the industry not being unified, and how very different the problem becomes when you face it in its actualities and realities and examine the position from the standpoint of existing conditions. I have said that the industry, taken as a whole, showed a loss of 3d. per ton, and those figures are taken from the Coal Commission's third Volume. They point out that of all the coal produced in this country about 95 per cent, is produced by 613 different firms, and those 613 different firms own between 2,000 and 3,000 separate mines. Now let us look at the analysis of all those firms, as given on page 235 of Volume 3. Although the average loss was 3d. per ton, out of those 613 firms only 29 actually lost 3d. per ton; 90 of them lost between 3d. and Is. per ton; 89 lost between Is. and 2s. per ton; 74 between 2s. and 3s.; 42 between 3s. and 4s.; 16 between 4s. and 5s.; 15 between 5s and 6s.; 6 between 6s. and 7s.; and 35 of them lost over 7s per ton. So in the one group you have 396 firms producing 58 per cent, of the output, making losses varying from 3d. to over 7s. per ton. On the other hand you have this. Seventy-four of these firms made profits of less than Is. per ton; 63 of them made profits of between Is. and 2s.; 35 made profits of between 2s. and 3s.; 18 of them made profits of between 3s. and 4s.; 14 made profits of between 4s. and. 5s.; 5 made profits of between 5s. and 6s.; 2 of them made profits of between 6s. and 7s.; and 6 of them made a profit of over 7s. per ton.

There is your problem in a nutshell. That is the problem which the coal trade presents to the Government and the nation. Now I ask hon. Members to try to apply the same kind of solution to the industry as it is to-day which I applied on "the assumption that it was a unified industry. Let us apply the proposal to reduce wages by 10 per cent. Surely the group of firms—217 of them producing 42 per cent, of the output, making profits from Is. to 7s. per ton—do not want a reduction of wages. They do not need a lengthening of the working day; they do not want a rise in the price of coal; they have no need of a subsidy; they are on velvet, they are making handsome profits. As a matter of fact, in regard to one-half of the industry there is no problem at all. [ Interruption. ] I am not aware whether hon. Members know that these people about whom I am talking are demanding longer hours.

Might I call the right hon. Gentleman's attention to the fact that some of the owners who are making these profits did not post notices asking for longer hours, nor did they ask for a reduction in wages?

That is perfectly true, but the loyalty of the miner is such—[ Interruption. ] I know there are districts where the owners did not give notice and I accept what the hon. Gentleman says, but it is not true to say that in no case where these big profits were made were notices tendered by the owners. As a matter of fact, in every district in Britain, colliery owners were making profits of this character. However, I am anxious for the moment to reveal the kind of problem with which we have to deal, and I say that here you have these two groups of collieries, one making profits, requiring nothing, and the other making heavy losses. I would put this question: 1s. 3d. a ton is not needed by those who are making profits, but it is totally inadequate and totally useless for dealing with those concerns with whom the real problem is associated. What is the use of giving 1s. 3d. a ton to people losing 4s., 5s., 6s. and 7s. a ton? What is the use of giving Is. 11½d. a ton by way of an 8-hour day to people who are making 5s., 6s. and 7s. profit? As a matter of fact, the more this problem is examined, the more will it be found that there is in the industry to-day no foundation anywhere on which to build a settlement, and the first thing you have to do is to create a foundation. You have to do in this industry what is done when people commence to erect a building anywhere. The first thing to do is to level the site, to bring down the peaks, and to establish some basis upon which to build a settlement which does not exist in the industry at the present time.

Suppose that a reduction in wages would settle this problem; ought the miners to be asked to accept a reduction in wages? The Prime Minister—so I am told, I did not hear it myself—over the wireless even during the General Strike was making appeals—"Can't you trust me? Can't you depend upon me to see a fair, square deal for the miners? "That is all we want; that is all we are out for. If the miners are asking for anything that is not a fair and square deal between themselves and other sections of the community, then the miners ought to be turned down. If they are not asking for a settlement on the basis of a square deal between themselves and other sections of the community they ought not to be supported. We had, over the wireless, the rates of wages paid to the miners, and I see in the Press daily long lists of big earnings in the mining industry. This afternoon we have been told that even with a 10 per cent, reduction in the wages of the men, they will not be at a point which requires any assistance at all from the Government. In other words, the Prime Minister has given it out that in his view and the view of the Government the wages of the miners to-day are so high that they can still be reduced. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I shall be most pleased to take my seat if the Prime Minister cares to rise to correct any statement by which I may be misrepresenting him. I understood the Prime Minister to say that, even with an extra hour on the working day and a 10 per cent, reduction in wages, in his view there would still be a square deal with the miners without any assistance from the State. If that is not a fair statement representing what the Prime Minister said, I shall be quite pleased, to be put right.

I do not want the right hon. Gentleman to treat unfairly what I said. When we were discussing the question of subsidy in the earlier part of this dispute the phrase that was used, having regard to what we thought and what the Commission said might be the very large drops required without assistance, was that

"a subsidy might be given to a reasonable amount."

In this case, what I put to the House was that if as the result of an agreement no wage in any circumstance would go below the basis of 1921, such money as the Government have would be used to much greater advantage in the industry by helping the men who were thrown out of work.

I do not see that the explanation of the Prime Minister differs in any respect from my representation of what he said. However, I am quite prepared to accept the Prime Minister's statement as representing the view of the Government. I was saying that we were seeing daily long lists of earnings and of the wages of the men in the mining industry, and we were being told that the wage position was very much better than had been represented by the miners' leaders. There need not be any misunderstanding over this; there is no need for any misrepresentation on the wages question. The Secretary for Mines issues every quarter a financial statement which shows the number of men-shifts worked, the output per man-shift, the wage received, the number of men unemployed and the number of men in work. Every year he publishes also a, statement of the actual annual wage for every person employed in the industry, taken on an average. What do these annual wages work out at? In 1922, the average wages of all mine workers—[An HON. MEMBER: "Does that include boys?"] Men and boys and bosses. I notice that whenever one talks about the wages of the miners one gets asked "Are the boys included in that?" We have in the mining industry a little army of salaried officials—the firemen, the under-managers, the surface workmen and the mechanics. We have a little army of officials, all salaried men, and their salaries are included in this average. What are the average earnings? In 1922, they earned £125 2s. per person. That works out at 48s. 1d. per week. The average wage in 1923 was £134 6s. That works out at 51s. 6d. a week. In 1924,the average wage was £138 4s. 7d. That works out at 53s. 2d. per week. In 1925, last year, their earnings were £131 16s. That works out at 50s. 8d. per week.

:I am giving hon. Members the actual average weekly earnings of these men and boys and bosses all come in together.

I have been asked, "Does that include coal and house? I think in Northumberland and Durham married men are supplied with free houses and allowances for rent and coal. I was asked whether those wages which I have given included that. The answer is "No," and there must also be some allowance made from these men's wages. Every one of these men have about half-a-crown a week deducted from their wages for Unemployment and Health Insurance and other different deductions, and you have to reduce that 50s. a week by 2s. 6d. a week in order to get the actual wages taken home by the mine workers. In addition to that, there are very heavy reductions in regard to fuel and in some cases for light and for other matters, all of which come out of these average earnings. The Prime Minister talks about a 10 per cent. reduction of wages. Here is roughly an average wage of 50s. a week. A 10 per cent, reduction means a reduction of 5s. in that wage. Does the Prime Minister regard it as a fair deal for the miners to say that an average wage of 50s. a week is too high and that they ought to come down to 45s. a week?

I am not responsible for proposals of the kind. I put before the House certain undertakings I had received from the owners. I do not know whether, in the event of negotiations taking place, an agreement will be come to on anything in those suggestions, or whether there will be more, or anything about it. I put them before the House as I had them. I have no responsibility for them, I do not know what figures might be negotiated.

I was under the impression that the Prime Minister was; telling the House the lines along which the Government proposed to proceed, and that in the view of the Government proposals of the character which have been indicated would be regarded as sufficiently fair and reasonable to justify them in saying there is to be no assistance, in relation to that scheme, so far as the Government are concerned. I assumed that the Prime Minister's suggestion also went to the extent of saying the men ought to accept these terms and conditions. I wish I might be wrong. I wish the Prime Minister would say I was wrong, that I had misinterpreted his position. I say, first of all, that you cannot solve this problem by a reduction of wages, because you are giving people who need nothing something which they ought not to have, and you are not providing adequately for those with whom the problem is acute; and, as I have said, the lengthening of the working day will have the same effect.

I cannot understand why hon. Members are so concerned about increasing the working day. I am amazed that the Government, who had a representative of the Mines Department sitting all through the proceedings of the Commission, have not been advised of the awful consequences that must follow from an eight-hours' day—if the mine owners are to be believed in the evidence they gave before that Commission. They put in a statement to this effect: If we have an eight-hours' day we cannot dispose of the output at a price which is more than 40 per cent, above pre-War price. They ascertained the pre-War price for each district and put it down, and in another column they put 40 per cent, on to those prices. Then they said: "These are the highest prices which can be obtained for coal if we have to dispose of an eight-hours' day output" Next they said, "Our present costs are so much"—and they put that figure in one column—and, "An eight-hours' day would reduce the cost by so much,"—and put the new figure in another column. Then they said, "If our costs are so much, and the price will be so much, what will the result be?" After making all the allowances the coalowners dared to make for the introduction of an eight-hours day they said there would be losses in every district in Great Britain. These are the amounts: The loss in Scotland would be 2s. 7d. per ton, in Northumberland Is. 8d., in Durham 2s. 6d., in South Wales Is. 9d., in the Eastern area 2s., in Lancashire 5s. 5d., In North Staffordshire 5s. 8d., in North Wales 2s. 9d., in Cumberland 6s., in Bristol 6s. 5d., and in the Forest of Dean 4s. 6d. That is the statement which the coalowners themselves placed before the Royal Commission. They said it would represent the real position of the coal trade in this country if they had an eight-hours' day and nothing else.

Is that a solution? It means unadulterated bankruptcy. The coalowners realised that, and they said, "In order to put the industry on its feet, we must have not only this eight hours' day, we must have 27½ per cent, off the railway-men's wages, we must have a reduction of the dockers' wages, we must have a reduction of the municipal workers' wages, and, when all that has been done, we must have substantial reductions in the wages of the miners" That is the case which the coalowners put before the Royal Commission. In face of these facts, it passes my comprehension that anyone on behalf of the Government can talk about an eight hours' day as a solution of the coal problem. The simple fact is that in the coal industry we have an industry with about 40 per cent, of it highly efficiently equipped. The trouble with the coal industry at the moment, paradoxical though it may sound, is that we are troubled with too much efficiency, and that the only hope for it is more efficiency. As I say, that is paradoxical, but it is the fact. The losing concerns are in the position they are through the greater efficiency and the undercutting of the concerns which are more efficiently equipped. The hope of the coal industry does not lie in putting another pile on to the backs of the workers, yet that is what all these proposals mean—that the miners are asked to carry this great burden of inefficiency and of unprofitableness.

We are not responsible for the condition of the coal trade. If this country intends to have private enterprise in the mining industry, it is entitled to do so, but surely it is not too much to ask that private enterprise shall be efficient, and that we shall not be called upon to carry the burden of the inefficiency of that portion which has been left far behind by the competition of those who have made their concerns efficient. The problem cannot be solved by lower wages or by longer hours, and it cannot be solved by a subsidy which is to be applied generally. If there were a subsidy of 1s. 3d. a ton on a unified industry, we could convert the whole industry into a profitable concern—it would cover all the differences in the mines and the differences between districts, and would solve the whole of the export problem. But when we deal with the industry in its present state, Is. 3d. is not all that is wanted. As a matter of fact, 2s. 6d. a ton has been paid during the last nine months for every ton sold, and with what result? The industry has been made worse by far, and the difficulties of the situation have been enormously intensified as the result of the cut-throat competition made possible by the form in which that subsidy was applied.

I would like to say a few words about what has become of this1 subsidy. An hon. Member put a question to the Secretary for Mines yesterday, asking how much of the subsidy had gone in wages and how much in profits, etc. I am assure hon. Members that most of it has gone in etceteras. In any case none of it has gone to wages. [ A laugh. ] I am going to prove it. The Mines Department issue quarterly a balance sheet. Anyone who takes the trouble to look at the September, December and March quarters will see that during those nine months, eight of which were subsidy-paying months, the actual amount of subsidy paid was £20,492,000. That went to the coalowners. But the coalowners got something more than that during the nine months. They got reductions in wages. Prior to the subsidy, there were districts with wages above the minimum, but they all came down to the minimum. During the subsidy period the owners obtained an advantage from a- greater output per man-shift worked, and through actual reductions in wages and through improvements due to increased output there was a reduction in costs. There was a reduction of 5¾d. per ton in labour costs, and a reduction of 2½d. in costs other than wages, making in all 8¼d. per ton reduction in costs. On the nine months that reduction in cost represents £5,800,000. The mineowners had £20,492,000 from the Exchequer, and £5,800,000 from reduced costs, chiefly from wages—more than £4,000,000 from wages.

I am coming to that in a minute. With the £20,500,000 of subsidy and this other £5,800,000 they had, roughly, £26,000,000. They used £2,100,000 to wipe out the threepenny loss, they kept £8,100,000 for themselves in profit, and they sold 168,000,000 tons of coal at Is. 11d. a ton below the cost pre-subsidy, and by that means gave £16,000,000 to the consumers. So £16,000,000 went to the consumers, and £10,000,000 odd went to the employers—£2,000,000 of this latter sum to help out previous losses. So far from the miners having received anything from the subsidy, all the miners have done during the last nine months has been to make concessions out of their wages. When I hear people talking about how much the miners have received out of this subsidy I wonder whether I am living in film land. It is all very well to have a state of things in this country in which the coalowners are given the power to undercut and undersell and to throw away the labour of the men, and then to suggest that it is the fault of the workers themselves.

If it could be shown that we were getting any extra trade as the result of this, it would be something to their credit, but although, in the nine months, we have reduced the price of our export coal on an average by 2s. 2d. a ton, will anybody get up and say we have sold an extra ton on account of it? Taking the nine months, we are in this position. In the sixth month before the subsidy our monthly exports amounted to 4,100,000 tons; after the nine months of the subsidy they were 4,040,000 tons, that is to say 60,000 tons a month less:—the result of all this undercutting that is going on. The moment we begin undercutting, the Germans do the same thing, or the French do the same thing. This thing can go on, and on, and on, and, until we do two things in the mining industry, we are up against this problem. First of all, there must be unification. Whether that is done for the industry as a whole, or whether it is done district by district, that has to be done as a preliminary. There can be no settlement until that first step is taken. The next thing that has to be done is to adopt the necessary machinery to prevent the undercutting and underselling that have been going on, which are a characteristic of the industry, and which are producing such ruinous results all through the country. Till both these things have been done, it is not fair to ask the miners to make any sacrifices to enable the coalowners to have more coal to dispose of in the same way as they have done before.

I intended asking the Prime Minister some questions and making some suggestions as to the lines along which I thought we might have proceeded. [HON. MEMBERS: "Go on!"] But I confess that, after listening to the speech which the right hon. Gentleman has delivered, I believe that it is a pretty hopeless situation. My right hon. Friend the ex-Minister of Health (Mr. Wheatley) had a question on the Paper at Question Time to the Prime Minister referring to the Samuel Memorandum, and asking whether he was willing to accept it as a basis of settlement. The Prime Minister's reply to the first part of the question was in the negative—that was as to negotiations—and, in the second place, he suggested that we had better wait until he made his statement later. Well, we do not know anything about it. [An HON. MEMBER: "About what?"] As to the possibility of the proposals submitted in the Samuel Memorandum. We are told on this question of unification or amalgamation, as it is called, that the Government intend to introduce legislation, but that the legislation is not coming into effect for three years. This, the very first, the initial step that should be taken, they are postponing for three years, and a settlement, which is not possible without that step being taken, is deferred indefinitely. We are asked to come down and endeavour to solve the problem in the absence of the very first essential!

If the Prime Minister has represented the policy or the course which the Government intend to pursue, I can only say that, while I very much regret it, I would have liked to form a different conclusion. I do not see an end to this stoppage. It may be prolonged for God knows how long. I do not know. Do not, however, let us forget that we have had some experience in this respect, and that we had a stoppage in 1921 when the miners were out for three months. At the end of that period the miners' leaders came to the conclusion that they could not win and they advised the men to return to work. They said: "We had better take a ballot.' The miners could not come out on strike without a majority of two-thirds, and if during the continuance of the strike they took a ballot, there must be a majority of two-thirds in favour of keeping on. It was said that, although there might be found some men who wanted to continue the stoppage, and there might even be a majority, yet at the end of the three months it was unthinkable that there would be a majority of two-thirds to continue. When the ballot was taken, I believe there were nearly 90 per cent, in favour of continuing, and that at the end of three months. [ Interruption. ] If hon. Gentlemen opposite wish to speak I will sit down. Some suggestion has been made that the strike might be called off, or that a vote might call it off, but if anyone imagines that the leaders are going to call off this strike, whether at the end of three or six months, following the speech to which we have just listened, they are very much mistaken. Though how our people are living is a mystery to me. [HON. MEMBERS: "MOSCOW!" and "A beastly cur; a dog!" and Interruption. ]We seem to be getting slightly into confusion. I only want an appreciation of the situation. I reminded hon. Members a moment ago of the 1921 stoppage of the mines. I shall never forget a former strike in Wales which lasted nearly six months. Men on these benches were on the committee at that time. They called it off after five months and a fortnight. The miners went on month after month, month after month, and this present dispute will go on for a very great length of time. I hope that the Government will sit down and undertake some reconsideration of the position, and that at the earliest possible moment they will take the real problem into consideration and use the opportunity, so far as it is possible, to apply a solution. Here is a suggestion taken from the Report where it says: facts are known, whether it is the age of the mine, the distance from the pit bottom, the nature and quality of the seams, the cost of production, profit and loss, and other relevant facts relating to the financial and physical conditions of the mines. These are now available, and if the Minister set to work, there is no reason at all why a great scheme of unification should not be put into operation immediately. It is already being done by individual concerns. I could tell of a mine in South Wales which has been losing heavily for years. This was taken over by a large, highly-efficient concern who, I am told, paid £250,000 for it. The ordinary shareholders did not get a penny, the preference shareholders and debenture holders got only a portion of the investment. The new firm took it in hand. They applied up-to-date methods. They re-equipped it, and with fewer men they are producing a considerably increased output. They have converted a hopelessly losing concern into a highly profitable paying business. That has been done. That is what may be done. That is what may be continued. Yet one concern after another is going to the dogs while this highly efficient concern will take one over, re-equip it, and put it on its legs.

Why should we wait year after year for this to be done generally? Why cannot we do this work on systematic lines and in a businesslike fashion? All the facts required are there; proper schemes are available, and if the Government would undertake work in this direction, all I can say is that they would receive the whole-hearted support of all concerned. There are miners' representatives in this House, men who were workmen in the mines and who have been miners' leaders, men who have had responsibility for many years in dealing with the problems which arise in the coal trade. There is a number of mineowners in this House, men who know the industry intimately. Why cannot we get down to it and seek out a solution of this problem because, after all, this House has got to do it. There will be no settlement without us. The mineowners and the miners are not going to settle it. The House will have to settle it and the sooner we get down to work out a solution of the problem the better it will be for all concerned. I would only emphasise what I have already said, that all this is in the interest of the nation. I earnestly appeal to the Prime Minister and his colleagues in the Government without delay to give a reconsideration to the whole problem, and see if it is possible to come forward with some solution.

The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ogmore (Mr. Hartshorn) has spoken upon a subject with which he is very familiar and upon which he speaks with great authority in every part of the country. He has to-day added another to the very clear and lucid speeches which, he has made in this House and in which he has gained the admiration of every Member who has listened. He speaks with a sincerity, which is very convincing, and with knowledge which commands the respect of us all. I do not think, however, that this afternoon he has added a very great deal to a solution of the problem with which this country is unhappily confronted. There can be no question about the disaster which has overtaken us at the present time. There have been very many industries which have been shut up, many others which are on the verge of ruin; our country is really bleeding at every vein, and unless we can find some solution to this problem, it is certain that we shall suffer very seriously at a time-when we are least capable of enduring distress, after we have gone through a prolonged depression which has brought many people of this country into a position of great jeopardy.

Under these circumstances, what are we to do? We must look at the problem as-it confronts us, and no one on the benches opposite disputes that the present condition of the coal trade shows that It is being run at a very serious loss. The Report of the Commissioners shows that is. 6d. per ton is the actual loss during the first portion of this year, and that figure is very greatly emphasised in the exporting districts. In Northumberland and Durham the loss was something like 3s. a ton, whilst in South Wales it was about 3s. 3d. a ton. Nobody is going to say that that is a situation which can easily be cured. May I point out that, while the right hon. Member for Ogmore has deplored the particular solution which has been put forward by the Prime Minister, he does not really himself offer any constructive proposal except a rather vague and general suggestion in regard to the unification of the industry, and he has said nothing at all as to what is to be done to meet these appalling losses during the period the industry is being unified.

I was very interested in what the right hon. Gentleman opposite said about the subsidy. As he very well knows, I was very much against that subsidy being granted, and I am not at all prepared to dispute the awkward and embarrassing effects which have followed from it. After giving this diatribe upon the subsidy, the right hon. Gentleman seemed to forget that the only solution being put forward by the Miners' Federation is the subsidy. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] On this point, it may be as well to quote the most recent pronouncement which I have seen upon the situation by Mr. Cook, who, writing to the "Times," I suppose on behalf of the miners' executive, says:

Yes, I was going to do so later on, but I will read it now. The closing sentence is as follows:

"When it is a fact, the case for these sacrifices will have vanished."

At any rate, the immediate problem is to find some method of solution. Let us suppose that reorganisation will cure the situation, which I feel sure it will not. How will the immediate situation be met? It is obvious from Mr. Cook's calculation that it will take months, and on the computation of the Commissioners it is going to take years, to carry out all the operations which are necessary. While I agree that in certain circumstances you may achieve amelioration by amalgamation, I am perfectly certain it is going to take a very long time to produce the amalgamation which would effect these modified costs, and I am equally certain that at the end of that period you are going to create a very inappreciable result as regards meeting the enormous difficulties of this problem. In the meantime the taxpayers are expected to go on providing the coal trade with a colossal dole, and that dole is to be provided by trades which are in an even more depressed condition than the coal industry, and which in some instances are getting wages £1 per week less than in the coal trade.

The right hon. Gentleman cannot name any industry where they are getting £l a week less than the miners.

That is a sort of interruption which does not tend to enlighten us. You can produce in any trade instances of much lower wages.

If these interruptions are allowed to continue, I may have to report that disorder has arisen, with the result that the Sitting will have to be suspended.

I do not want to evade the particular instance which has been given. What I have said almost meets the point which the right hon. Gentleman has made about the average of wages in this country. I should like to refer the hon. Members who interrupted me to the Report of the Commissioners where all these figures are brought out, and the averages are given, and it is only upon averages we can go if we wish to conduct the Debate with any appreciable result. What the Commissioners' Report discloses is that, whereas at the time of the stoppage the average wage at the coal face was 76s. a week, the average wage of a skilled fitter and turner in the engineering trade is only 56s. a week. The underground labourer at the coal pits on the average gets 52s. 9d. per week. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] At any rate, that is the figure given by the Coal Commissioners after very careful investigation.

When the right hon. Gentleman refers to 76s. per week as the average for a man working in the coal trade, he should tell the House that that is the amount for a six days week, and not one out of every 10 persons who attend their work regularly can put in six days.

The average wage I have mentioned is not based upon a six days week, but upon 11 days per fortnight. Some districts only work five days per week, but 11 days a fortnight is the more regular practice.

It is useless talking about the number of days work per week. I would like to call attention to the fact that there is a paragraph in the Commissioners' Report which shows that the actual average number of days worked per person employed in the coal industry is 4·61 days. That is the average weekly wage figure, and it does not represent the weekly earnings.

If that is so, then the Commissioners have been singularly unhappy in putting these figures in the Report, because they actually use the figure of 76s. a week, and that is where the taxpayers, who have paid for the Report, naturally look for their information. Until these figures are disproved I mast stand by them. What is not remembered in this country is that figures are constantly given which are supposed to represent the wage of the coal worker, and everybody assumes that this particular wage is given to some man working underground. They fail to realise that there are a very large number of men working at the pitheads, and these are the people who bring down the average. The man at the pithead is not working in any more difficult circumstances than the workman in shipyards or engineering shops, and you will find upon inquiry that the labourer in the engineering shop and the shipyard has been earning less wages on the average than the workers at the pitheads in this country. I hope I have now answered my hon. Friends who interrupted me.

The right hon. Gentleman opposite made a very satirical rejoinder to the Prime Minister's suggestion that we should now revert to a longer day, and he asked how it was that anyone could conceive such a remedy for such a position. As it appears to me, the first reason you can give to the right hon. Gentleman opposite is this. The Commissioners say in their Report that to lengthen the day by one hour would enable a reduction in the price of coal to be made amounting to 2s. per ton, and that makes an appreciable difference. The next point is that we are working a shorter day than any other people who are working coal in any other country in the world. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] At any rate, that is what the Commissioners say. I do not wish to refer to every page of the Commissioners' Report to prove my statement, but I am not making these statements without having given very careful study to the Report. They give the figures for every other country, and they say that our working day at the face, which is the only thing that matters, is less than any other country. [An HON. MEMBER: "And the British miner gets more coal in the same time."]

Some people talk about the incompetence of the coalowners of this country in regard to the management of their business, but I think it should be remembered that our coalowners in the past have successfully competed with the other coal producers of the world, and they have maintained a bigger export coal market than any other country in the world. Therefore, I do not think it can be said that our coal trade is not managed as well as the coal trade of any other country. We are competing with countries which are working a longer day at a less cost. The important thing to observe is that our costs in everything other than wages are less than the costs of our competitors on the Continent, and it is only in wages that our expenses go up higher than theirs.

Does the right hon. Gentleman not admit that the Commissioners also point out that the output per man employed in this country is higher than in any other country in Europe?

No, that is not so. The output of the German worker is higher than the output of the British worker. The output of the British worker is higher than the output of the Belgian worker, but the German worker is putting out more coal than the British worker. That, at least, is the finding in the Report. I do not want, however, to-be diverted from my argument by questions of that kind. What I wish to point out is that the average cost of raising a ton of coal in Germany before the Report was produced was 7s. 9d., whereas the average cost in this country was 11s. 5d. I do beg the House to consider these figures when we have the business of entering into competition with all these other countries in the attempt to get these export markets, which mean the very existence of this country. Unless we keep up our export of coal from this country, we are going to bring to an end very many of our most important industries, and we are going to increase the cost of living in this country, because all ships which do not take out coal as a cargo are going to charge more for freight upon the wheat and corn which they bring back from the countries to which they go. Accordingly, it is vital to us that we should be able to maintain our position in the export market, and that we should be able to produce our coal in competition with other people abroad.

Therefore, I answer the right hon. Gentleman by saying that the reduction in cost which is achieved by working a longer day, and the getting of more output as a return upon the enormous machinery that has been erected is a matter of vital importance. I would like to put the question thus to people in this House who are accustomed to finance large industries: "If you were informed that the business for which your money was sought was only conducted for 5¾ hours a day—I mean so far as the effective production is concerned—and you were informed of the enormous capital which is required to-day to start a modern colliery, would you be very much inclined to invest your money?" I venture to say that the answer in most cases would be "No." We have to get away from this position of meagre output in return for a large expenditure of capital, if we are to maintain our position, and I, for one, give my hearty support to the Measure which the Prime Minister proposes of suspending in the meantime the Seven Hours Act, in order that an opportunity may be given to people to negotiate for working a longer day, with a view to producing "a better output to compensate for the amount of capital that is employed.

I ask, what is the alternative to something of this kind? The right hon. Gentleman has suggested amalgamations. I say, in the first place, that these are going to take a very long time to effect. The letter from Mr. Cook, to which I have referred, indicated the desire to make amalgamations with German selling agencies, which he thought would produce a more uniform price in the export market. I venture to say to the House that any negotiations with German selling agencies for this purpose will take a very long period of time. I happen myself to know a little about the difficulties of negotiations with regard to selling arrangements with foreign people. I have been concerned in certain negotiations of that kind, not in the coal trade, but in connection with another industry, and I know how difficult it is. The negotiations have been going on now for some years, and have not reached fruition yet. But, apart altogether from my own experience, every Member of the House who has been reading of the negotiations between the Germans and the French since the War ceased, with regard to selling agencies for iron and steel, will know what a tremendous amount of time has been occupied in the attempt to bring about a suitable result, and how little the result even now is. Accordingly, I would again bring to the notice of the right hon. Gentleman the fact that his particular solution does nothing at all to meet our present problem, which is that of carrying on the coal industry in this country until some arrangements can be made, which, whatever they may be, are intended to bring about a cheapening of costs in the running of our coal industry, and, therefore, a greater ability to give a wage that the coalminer will accept.

I say, in addition to that, that, so far as these amalgamations are concerned, the cheapening of costs is going to be comparatively small. My right hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen (Sir A. Mond) has been going into this matter, and he wrote the other day a very important letter to the "Times," which is worth the study of everyone; but he did not for a moment venture to say that the proposal with regard to selling agencies was going to form a substitute for other measures which must be taken in order to keep the coal trade in operation in this country. He said, in the first place, just what the Prime Minister has said to-day, namely, that it would be necessary, in his view, to suspend—or annul, I think he said—the Seven Hours Act, and have a longer working day in this country, in order that there might be a bigger output; and, so far as I am concerned, with some little knowledge of what I am saying, I do not believe that the kind of amalgamations which are suggested would bring about, on the average, in this country, a diminution in our costs of more than about 3d. a ton.

The reason must, I am sure, be obvious to everyone. You are dealing with cases which are in themselves very unlike. Every coal pit is an entity in itself, and you have, by Act of Parliament, to keep up a certain management which you cannot dispense with, no matter what your central organisation is. The result, as everyone with experience of amalgamation of coal pits has found, is that the cutting down of costs is really very small in comparison with what it would be if you were amalgamating factories and not coal pits. You do save something in your selling costs, but in many instances you save nothing at all in connection with the general management. I know myself of an instance of amalgamation which occurred the other day, where a company, which had been acquired, was proved to have less costs than the combination which it was invited to join, and where, instead of a central management being arranged, the two entities have been left each to manage for itself. That is not because the situation was not being dealt with by a skilled management, but because of the character of the coalfields themselves, and the fact that your lay-out has been made by Providence in advance, and nothing you can do can alter it. That is the difference between a coalfield amalgamation and, say, a factory amalgamation.

Do you not get rid of a lot of unnecessary directors' fees? I have here a Report relating to the Eastern area, which shows how the remuneration of directors, general managers, mine managers and secretaries can be got rid of. If you have an amalgamation you get rid of the secretaries, because one will do, and you get rid of some of the directors. You get rid also of some of the general managers, because one will do, and in the whole of the Eastern area, in one year, the charge for these items comes to 2·64d. per ton.

I think my hon. Friend forgets that not by any means all, or even a large number, of the coalpits in this country which are going to amalgamate, are already under the management of directors who are going to be got rid of. In a large number of cases it is the amalgamation of pits which have been operated, in some cases, by individual men, or by small partnerships, and, instead of reducing costs, what you would really do would be to add a central organisation to what was previously run by these people, who will still have to be paid. I know of cases myself where that has happened.

Ask the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carmarthen (Sir A. Mond).

My right hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen is the very person upon whose point of view I would rely. The right hon. Gentleman has said nothing at all to the effect that he would be willing to accept the Report of the Commission on the matter of wages—

What I said, and what I tried to prove, was that a reduction in wages would not solve the problem—that the nature of the problem was such that a solution could not be obtained along those lines.

The right hon. Gentleman must remember that the Report of the Commissian shows that, without an immediate reduction in wages, disaster is going to fall upon this industry, and they recommend a certain reduction in wages. I gather from the right hon. Gentleman that it is still the attitude of the Miners' Federation and their representatives in this House that no reduction of wages at all will be accepted. I see from Mr. Cook's letter, which I have already quoted, and particularly from the passage which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Platting (Mr. Clynes) asked me to read, that, even after all the reorganisations have take l place which he desiderates, he is going to say nothing at all about the reduction of wages. All that he says is that, by the time these reorganisations are effected, sacrifices will be unnecessary. But suppose that they are still necessary. Suppose I am right in thinking that these amalgamations are not going to fill the gap that lies between costs and prices at the present time. The attitude of the Miners' Federation is that in no circumstances will they accept any reduction on the wages which were in existence before the present stoppage. I would remind them of one passage in the Commissioners' Report, which I shall cite, if I may, before I sit down, and which I desire to commend to their attention. The Commissioners say:

"Any material fall of wages will, we fully recognise, on the facts presented elsewhere in this Report, bring real wages, at the present cost of living, below pre-War level for a large proportion of miners. This is a necessity to which other great industries have been driven. In the situation immediately confronting us it cannot be avoided for the whole industry except by making that industry a burden on the rest of the community or by returning to a longer working day."

As my right hon. Friend has rejected the longer working day, does he desire that the coal industry shall become a burden upon the community? Is he definitely refusing to accept the vicissitudes and the misfortunes which the other great industries of this country have to bear, as the Commissioners point out? I cannot believe that the miners of this country are going to be so ungenerous. They know in what a condition of distress we are. They know how much the country is suffering. They realise that the other great industries of this country which are comparable with theirs, like the shipbuilding and engineering industries, have had to suffer great reductions in wages—larger than any that the miners have yet suffered. Do they propose to take the attitude that in no circumstances are they going to help the country during its present time of stress? I refuse to believe that that is the final word of the miners, and I would appeal to them to take some part in saving us from the disaster which is impending, and in bringing the country back to a state of prosperity such as we have enjoyed in the past.

I want to reply to some of the observations that have been made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Home), and particularly to draw his attention to what seems to me to be an intentional omission, not only from his speech this afternoon, but also from a speech that he made when the coal situation was under review something over a week ago. On that occasion the right hon. Gentleman suggested that, if the mine workers Were at all sympathetically inclined towards the nation, they would not hesitate to accept a longer working day, thereby helping us to surmount our economic difficulties for the moment. I wonder if the right hon. Gentleman ever read page 173 of the Report. He seemed pretty persistent in his advocacy of the acceptance of the Royal Commission's Report but yet the very vital section referring to the question of the lengthening of the working day seems to have been intentionally omitted by him. I commend this to the notice of the Prime Minister too, who seems to have become, as he was indeed for a period of three weeks at the commencement of this dispute, the official representative of the coalowners. The Prime Minister and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillhead submitted to the House a proposal for an extension of the working day by an hour. Here is what the Commission say: thirds of the amount produced by the average British mine worker, what really do they expect the British mine worker to do? It seems to me that to suggest eight hours at all is to fly absolutely in the face of the Commission's Report.

The Prime Minister to-day reminded the Committee of what the evil consequences may be of the mine workers demanding a continuance of the wages they had prior to the stoppage, that uneconomic mines may have to be closed down and large numbers of work people thrown on the streets. But he did not tell us that when the coal owners' terms were submitted to the Commission, the Chairman said this would involve a possible 120,000 or 130,000 mine workers being thrown out of work immediately, so that there are certainly two sides of the question of throwing people out of work. The eight hours' day that is calculated, as the Chairman said, to put 120,000 or 130,000 mine workers out of work is an item that the miners are bound to consider. I will ask hon. Members opposite not to forget this very salient fact, and I would ask the right hon. Gentleman who will very likely reply to the Debate if there was a single week during the year that preceded the stoppage when we had less than 100,000 miners out of work. There was one single week during the whole 12 months when we had less than 100,000 miners out of work. If that was the case, that we had 100,000 out of work for the whole period of 12 months, and the acceptance of an eight hour day would put a further 120,000 or 130,000 out of work, what hope is there for the miners who are out of work? We know what the right hon. Gentleman did during the past year with the Unemployment Insurance Act.

I can never conceive a body of mine workers, faced with the question whether they shall revert to eight hours or retain the seven-hour day, casting a vote in favour of eight hours. Is it to be expected that a body of men who know that, if they decide to go back to the eight-hour day, approximately one out of every nine of them will be thrown out of work, are readily going to accept the suggestion of the Prime Minister? Obviously there is no likelihood of the miners accepting that proposition either in June or July, 1926 or 1927, and it seems to me it is futile to expect them even to consider the proposal in the light of their own past experience and their own day to day experience. Any practical miner knows, whatever may have been said at the Commission, or by the Commission, that if the coal owners really wanted an increased output, they could have the output increased from 10 to 15 per cent. almost any day of the week. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carmarthen (Sir A. Mond) can tell the Committee, if he cares, that at almost every holiday period during the whole year an increased output of 30 per cent. can be obtained when there is a general effort on the part of the management and the men to secure the maximum output, and the same thing could obtain week by week if the people were supplied with the facilities they need for increasing their output. It is useless to talk to men who could increase their output, given the necessary number of tubs, by 10, 15 or 20 per cent, every day of the week. Therefore, I see no possible hope that the miners are going to consider that side of the proposition for one single moment,

To turn to the question of a reduction of wages, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillhead religiously avoided making a reference to page 227 of the Report, where the Commission definitely state that before any sacrifices are asked for from those engaged in the industry, it has to be definitely agreed between them that all practicable means for improving its organisation and increasing its efficiency should be adopted. The miners' representatives have never sought more than that. They have never sought more than that the full implications of the Commission's Report should be thoroughly examined and the best interpretation possible obtained. What have the coalowners offered to the workers from the commencement? I am very much afraid, what with the speeches made by the Prime Minister and other politicians who are not directly speaking for the mineowners, this nation and many Members in the House are suffering under some misapprehension. May I remind the Committee of the only three sets of terms or conditions that the mineowners have presented to the workers. Prior to 30th April, the only offer the coalowners made, apart from the published statement, which meant nothing at all, was a question of accepting district agreements which meant of course that if the economics of the industry only supplied a wage of 5s. or 5s. 6d., or 4s. 6d., as the case may be, that would be the wage of the worker in that district. The Prime Minister and the Minister of Labour, and I believe other representatives of the Government, intervened and the Prime Minister claimed it as a great victory when he persuaded the owners to change from district agreements and to concede a national agreement.

What was the second set of terms the owners offered to the Miners' Federation? I refer to this to show the temper, and to indicate the kindly disposed gentlemen who direct the operations of the Mining Association. The second set of terms the owners submitted was through the Prime Minister on 30th April at 1.15 p.m., and they were an eight-hour day and a reduction in wages of not less than 13⅓ per cent. Whatever statements may be made in the House or anywhere else, that is a known fact. The third and only other set of terms the coalowners ever offered was sent to the Prime Minister, in reply to the Memorandum the Prime Minister sent both to the Miners' Federation and to the coalowners. Those terms contained an eight-hour day and a reduction in wages which may have been 10 per cent. or more. It does not seem to me that it is an impartial view that the Government are taking when they constantly refer only to what they think the mineworkers ought to do in assisting towards a solution of this problem. They never have, from the very commencement of this dispute, recognised the size of the task, and they have never seen the realities of the situation as referred to by my right hon. Friend. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillhead would be the first to admit that a 10 per cent. reduction in wages would be of no use whatever to a colliery company who were losing 7s. per ton. He would be the first to admit that for workmen to accept a 10 per cent. reduction who worked at a colliery which was making 7s. a ton profit would be ridiculous, and yet that is the general position, and unless the two sets of collieries, the economic and the uneconomic, are brought together, and the industry is regarded as one, and the men are paid on the basis of giving a real, useful day's work whether they are in a thin or a thick seam, I think there is no real chance of a permanent solution of the problem.

6.0 P.M.

I should like to refer to the right hon. Gentleman's statement with regard to the heavily burdened taxpayer having to provide very large sums of money to the mining industry. My right hon. Friend informed the Committee where the £20,000,000 of subsidy went to. Certainly it never went into the pockets of the mine workers. They actually suffered reductions during the whole period the subsidy was paid. We find that the spokesman for the steel manufacturers at the exhibition brought some light on the subject of where the subsidy actually went. It is a very illuminating piece of information, which hon. Members ought not to forget when considering not only the present dispute in the mining industry but also the burden which the price of coal is supposed to be on dependent industries. Sir William Larke, who represented the steel manufacturers of this country, handed in a document showing the cost of coal used for the manufacture of one ton of pit iron, giving the cost in 1913 for the production of a ton of pig iron and for two further periods, namely, March, 1925, before the subsidy, and September, 1925, when the subsidy was being paid. I should like these figures to be thoroughly understood for they show clearly where the subsidy went. For the quarter ending March, 1925, the cost per ton for coal purchased for the manufacture of steel in this country, according to Sir William Larke, was 14s. 9d. per ton. The cost for the quarter ending September, 1925, during the time the subsidy was being paid, for coal used for the manufacture of steel was 11s. 11d. per ton, a reduction of 2s. 10d. per ton. The right hon. and learned Member for Hillhead told us that at the most critical period in the early months of this year the mining industry was losing 1s. 6d. per ton on every ton of coal they produced. The actual price per ton of coal for the steel manufacturers had been reduced 2s. 10d. a ton, while the cost of the coal that was exported also went down by somewhere about 2s. per ton. It does seem to me that here clearly can be seen the avenue down which the £20,000,000 of subsidy went. It certainly did not go into the pockets of the mine workers.

There is another figure included in this statement which ought to be known and understood. Sir William Larke stated that for a ton of coal purchased in 1913 for the manufacture of steel they paid an average of 11s. 7d. per ton. Therefore the steel manufacturers paid 11s. 7d. per ton for coal in 1913 and only 11s. 11d. in September, 1925, so that the cost of a ton of coal had only increased by 4d. per ton, notwithstanding the very great change in values that has taken place in the intervening period. Far from the subsidy having gone into the pockets of the mine workers, they are the last people who have received any benefits as a result of that piece of financial legislation. I would ask hon. Members opposite whether they think they are justified in calling upon the mine workers either to make sacrifices in the direction of a reduction in wages or an extension of working hours, when they remember the real position of the mine worker in his own industry. He is divorced from all control in the industry. He is constantly told by the people who manage the pits, "They are our pits, and we shall run them as we like." He has no say how material shall be preserved which is lost to the extent of tens of thousands of pounds in a big mining area in one year. He is divorced from all sort of useful and productive suggestions in his own industry, and as a result he is in no way responsible for the good or the bad position of the pit at the end of the period.

Not only has the miner no say in his own industry from the managerial point of view, but he has no say as to where the coal shall be sold, to whom it shall be sold and at what price. Some very ingenious means are employed for disposing of coal at high profits in many collieries. I will give an instance. The right hon. Member for Ince (Mr. S. Walsh) has been challenged by the Coal-owners' Association because he made a statement in regard to hidden profits. My right hon. Friend justified his statement. There is a colliery in my own Division which employs 2,800 men. The owner or virtual owner constantly tells the men, and their wives if they are on the premises, that the pit never makes a profit, and he advises the men to work an extra hour per day. The men cannot get to know exactly what is happening at the pit at which they work. They asked someone to investigate the books of this company at Somerset House. They find that it is a private company with a nominal capital of £1,000,000 and that a coal and iron company in the county own 975,000 of the 975,002 shares which have been issued. What is there to prevent this company producing coal which may cost 14s. a ton, selling that coal to the steel company at 12s. a ton and telling the colliers that the pit is losing money? I am one of those who, noting the balance sheets of these various inter-connected companies, believe that that is actually taking place, for while no profits can be proved at the colliery, we find that the the steel works have been for a quarter of a century making wonderfully big profits.

When we come to the question of by-products, we know of an example of two collieries setting up a third company, a by-product company, and both collieries selling small coal to this third company at a very small price and purchasing electricity from the third company at a very high price. Have we not heard that both those colliery companies have lost money at the end of the year, and have we not seen the third company making a 50 per cent. dividend and paying their shareholders a bonus of 100 per cent? These things are known and understood by the mine workers. Although they are divorced from the actual control or from having any say in their industry, they do know some of the vital things that matter a very great deal. I am convinced that after the experience the mine workers have had over the last 10, 20 or 30 years, they will not readily accept an extended working day and agree to work longer than any Continental mine worker. Hon. Members talk about a seven-hour day and a 5½-hour day. At the pit where I was employed prior to coming to this better stall, work began at 6 a.m. and the day's shift concluded at 1 p.m. The men began to go down the pit at a quarter-past five and they were going down until 6 o'clock. They began to ascend at 1 p.m. and were ascending until a quarter to two. The average for every man who worked at that colliery was 7¾ hours a day in the pit.

Hundreds of thousands of miners, because they are unable to secure a house near their work, have to go two, five or seven miles before they can secure a home. When we take into consideration the hours a man is down the pit working and the time it takes him to descend and ascend, they work not only as long but even longer hours than workmen in other industries.

It ill-becomes those who have so mismanaged their business for such a long period to come forward at this period in 1926 and ask the workmen to work longer hours than the Continental mine workers, and to go back to longer hours than they have been working during the past six or seven years. I hope the Government are not behind the Prime Minister in believing that there is a ghost of a chance of persuading the mine workers to accept an eight-hour day. The Government ought to be more positive and more productive in their statements than the Prime Minister has been to-day. If they would follow the line pointed out by one of my hon. Friends who preceded me, we could not only find a solution, but a real and lasting solution, and one which would give dependent industries much more certainty in the future than they have had during the past 10 years.

The hon. Member for the Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) raised some points of detail which were interesting, although they scarcely helped us towards a solution of a large problem. He referred to the profits made by owners of steel works, collieries and by-product plant. On the wages ascertained, certainly all these factors ought to be taken into consideration, and I believe, although I am speaking from memory, that that was one of the recommendations of the Commission, which they thought ought to be put into force. Obviously, it is unfair, if you own a colliery and another works, that you should be allowed to make an artificial loss in one industry for the benefit of the other industry.

The curious thing in this Debate is that, although in the speech of the hon. Member for Don Valley and the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Mr. Hartshorn), there is one note which has always interested me, namely, that they insist on a national agreement, they most convincingly prove that there ought to be nothing but pit agreements. They point out with great force that one pit is different from another pit. The right hon. Member for Ogmore said: "What is the use of an average? Some collieries make 7s. per ton profit and some make 7s. per ton loss. How unfair it is to ask the men in a colliery making a profit of 7s. to accept smaller wages, and how ridiculous it is to try to fix an average wage which would enable men to go on working in collieries which have a loss of 7s." The obvious answer is that the men who work in the colliery which makes a profit of 7s. ought to have an agreement for that pit, while the men who work in a colliery which makes a 7s. loss ought to have a special agreement for that pit. It is the only economic way in which to settle the matter. It is the only way in which a settlement can be arrived at. I have been making inquiries and I have been informed that collieries have been reopened on terms which have no relation whatever to any agreement. The miners have said to the owners, "What can you afford to pay?" and they have taken what the owners could afford to give them, because they were tired of staying outside and asking for terms which no one could give them and at the same time run their pit at a profit.

The hon. Member for the Don Valley says that if you combine the pit which is losing 7s. with the pit which is making a profit of 7s. everything will be all right. I have never yet understood why a combination of a good and a losing pit must result in a profit, or how the worker is going to be fundamentally better off by putting him into an industry which makes no profit whatsoeveer. Why, even underground the man who works in one stall will not pool his wages with another man working underground. The hon. Member opposite cannot get the man at the face to pool his wages with men at the surface, and therefore, what is the use of the proposal he makes? He knows perfectly well that if he proposes to the Yorkshire miner, who is getting better wages, that he should pool his wages with the South Wales men who are losing money, there will be very little doing.

May I remind the right hon. Gentleman that in 1921 the Yorkshire miners, who were doing best, remained out of work for 13 weeks in an effort to create a pool?

They might have stayed out 13 weeks, but the Yorkshire miners will no more pool their wages with the South Wales miners than the Yorkshire coalowners will pool their profits with the South Wales coalowners. It is just as well to be candid on these matters, and not to be under any illusions. It is necessary that we should face the difficulties in this industry in the right way. The right hon. Gentleman opposite is right in his broad presentation of the situation, but the fundamental difficulty of this problem is what is the economic basis? If you lengthen hours and reduce costs, if you lower wages and reduce costs, what evidence have you that prices will not simply come down by an equivalent amount, and that an uneconomic pit will be just as badly off and will have to shut down? You will be in the same position as you are to-day. That is the real economic problem which must be fundamentally examined. You can only examine it by looking at the coal industry in an efficient manner. Two things are obviously wrong in the coal industry. One is that you have a production larger than the consumption. That is admitted in this country and in Europe, and overproduction leads always to one economic result; there is a falling off in the selling price. Under-production always leads to the one same economic result, there is a rise in price far beyond the under-production.

You have three classes of pits. There are the pits which are making a profit, that is about 40 per cent. of the present pits; a certain number of pits which cannot make a profit but which are working at a small loss; and you have a certain number of pits, which are so uneconomic, that under no conceivable scheme of reorganisation or remodelling or any other method can they be made to pay. There are not many of them, but they exist. If you look at that picture broadly what ought your wages and hours—and wages and hours are practically the same thing—to be? What must you have as your basis? The basis must be the pit which can still be economically worked in a normal way. Undoubtedly one of the mistakes made in the proposals put forward by the Coal Owners' Association was the endeavour to fix wages at a rate which would keep a number of uneconomic pits in existence, which cannot possibly be allowed to exist. But supposing all notices are withdrawn, suppose that tomorrow the men were to go back to work on the old terms, I believe that about 60 per cent. of the collieries of this country would have to be shut down, and the other 40 per cent. would manage to exist either on a profit or a small margin of loss. What would happen? You would have an enormous shortage of coal, and prices would immediately begin to rise. Then the other pits would begin once more to come into operation, and you would practically get back to the same stage as where you were. That being so, surely it is just as unreasonable to sit on one side and try to depress wages as to sit on the other side and say, we refuse to consider any alteration of hours or wages at all. Both seem to me to be little applicable to the present conditions.

What we ought to consider is; what is the margin on which a pit can produce? That is the one economic question. It is argued that at a certain cost the colliery cannot pay. What is meant by that? It means that at the present selling price of coal the cost of production is higher than the selling price. It seems to be assumed that the selling price of coal is a static thing and cannot be altered at all, but nothing has fluctuated more than the selling price of coal. It alters continuously, and those in the industry know how violent the fluctuations are. We cannot take the selling price of coal as static, and we have got to form some idea of what a reasonable selling price is to be over a certain period. We have not in this country anything like what they have in Germany. There coal is not sold by a disorderly mob of people throwing their coal into the market without any relation to consumption or the demands of the market. If you had such an organisation as exists in Germany, you would be able to stabilise prices for coal over a period, and you would then have that economic basis for which the right hon. Member for Ogmore has been asking.

I have taken some personal trouble to ascertain how Germany has been able to succeed in achieving something which people here tell you is impossible. The German coal industry did not achieve the organisation of its sales in a day. It did not spring like Minerva fully armed and complete out of the head of Jove. I have spoken with men who have organised this particular branch of the German coal industry, and they have explained to me that they had all the difficulties with which this country is now faced when they began. They have faced all the difficulties of people who are frightened of giving up their sales and frightened of what would happen when agreements came to an end—they have passed through all these stages. In fact, the first five years of a syndicate like this was the most difficult. In that respect it is rather like marriage. Everyone knows the difficulties of the early stages, but finally you get accustomed to it as a habit. The difficulties have been overcome, the machinery operates, and the result is that 30 years' experience is embodied in a very long and technical document covering many pages and dealing with every conceivable difficulty the human mind can think of. In Germany they would no more think of going back out of the organised conditions of their industry to the disorderly conditions of this country, than we should think of going back to the time before railways existed.

In the interesting speech of the Prime Minister it seems to me, although the Government are prepared to go a long way—I do not think it has been sufficiently recognised on the other side—much further than any Conservative Government has ever gone in interfering with the liberty of the subject, that the Government stress the point of amalgamation rather than the point of selling. In my conversation with representatives of the German coal industry, I asked how they dealt with their uneconomic pits. They said that every pit has a quota, and people who have good pits soon found that it was cheaper for them to buy from the man who had an uneconomic pit, and the man who had an uneconomic pit was glad to get something. The uneconomic pit thus gradually disappeared, and the better pit took its place. That is one of the automatic effects. Unless the British coal exporting industry adopts the same scientific lines as the German coal exporting industry has done, whatever you may do it will gradually lose its markets. It cannot go on. You cannot sell dirty second-best coal while your competitors are selling well-washed, screened coal. You cannot persuade a man to buy your second-class coal when other people are selling coal specially graded, and that is one of the advantages which the Rhur Syndicate has created. When a man produces bad quality coal the syndicate penalises him in the selling price. They send a committee up to the colliery and tell him that if he cannot produce better stuff they will not have his coal sold at all, and that man succeeds in improving the quality of his coal. All these things naturally come about if once you get people to co-operate together in an intelligent way.

Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us if it is possible to start your selling agency before you have determined your quota?

I doubt very much whether that would work. It is a question of machinery. There is one point I want to make in this complicated question, and it is this. The German pooling syndicate have not endeavoured, especially in the foreign markets, to displace the merchants who for years have had the handling of these particular markets. Very wisely they let the merchants go on dealing with the business, and they have been quite satisfied. It does not do the merchants any harm. Nor in the home trade have they endeavoured to eliminate the merchant. They have left the retail business to the ordinary merchants, and they have found by experience and by investigation that large organisations of this kind cannot profitably or usefully endeavour to do everything. What they have done is this. They have stabilised production and prices. They have a kind of super-council, and the Minister of Mines, of course, has powers under the German Mining Act of 1919, which is well worth the attention of hon. Members of this House. It seems desirable that an organisation of this kind should be established, but it should not be made too unwieldy.

What you would do is this: You would convert coal, which in my experience has been a gamble, into an industry. Look back over the history of the coal industry, and you will find its curve going up and down like the peaks of a mountain, slump and boom succeeding each other in the most violent manner. During the boom everything has been taken out, and during the slump there is nothing to put in. If you ask me what are our difficulties now, why the country is stranded and paralysed to-day, and why neither the owners' representatives nor the miners' representatives can go any further, I would say that it is because you are in a period of slump, and neither side sees its way to contribute sufficient to carry you through the industry to the period of boom which is coming as surely as I am standing in this House. It would be in the interests of everyone in the industry, and in the interest of the consumer, if you had a more stabilised course and a straighter curve. I am a large consumer of coal. It does not pay anyone in big business to-day to have great ups and downs. What we want is stability, so that for a number of years it is possible to look ahead and to realise the probable trend of affairs. From that point of view alone, I consider that it would be of great value if organisations of the kind I have mentioned were established. I am not altogether discouraged. Individual coal-owners to whom I have submitted these ideas support them.

It would be rather unfair to do so without asking their permission. Perhaps my hon. Friend will take it from me when I say that they are important people in the coal industry. He knows me well enough to know that I would not say they were important if they were not. I have submitted these proposals to district mining associations, and I have had replies from a considerable number of them. A good many are sympathetic. Some seem to imagine that we must wait until this emergency is passed. That is rather a growing tendency at the moment. I consider that the only way to get the dispute settled is to go on doing these things. Think of the time that negotiations have been in progress! Think of the time since the Report of the Commission! We could almost have carried through these ideas in the period that has passed since then. Weeks and months have gone, while everybody has been waiting for someone else to act. We cannot afford to go on in that way. It is time that action was taken. There is one thing which runs through a great many of the communications I have received, and that is, that unless the Government stands at the back of the scheme nothing can be done.

Let the Government apply as much compulsion to the problem of buying and selling as is necessary. You will always find some people standing out. That was the German experience. Under the German Act of 1919 the Minister for Mines has power to create a syndicate himself if it is not done voluntarily. That power has never yet been exercised, and it never will be exercised. The existence of the Minister's power is quite sufficient. The remark was made to me that an obstinate coalowner at a pinch would sooner make a deal with another coalowner than be at the mercy of the Minister. It would be the same in this country. This is not merely a national, but an international problem. The production of coal in Germany and on the Continent is just as difficult a problem as it is here. We can all reduce costs. We can go on playing the game of "beggar-my-neighbour." I do not know where the bottom is, and I doubt whether anyone could tell me. Other great industries are getting together to forward common interests. That is the case with copper, with soda, with sulphate of ammonia, and I could give dozens of other illustrations.

Yes, the distillers. Take the position of the rubber industry. Before the Stevenson scheme it was in exactly the same position as the coal industry to-day. You had over-production and a prospect of the ruin of the industry. The Government, of which I was a member, did not hesitate to act. It sanctioned prohibition of exports, and that saved the industry and brought it round to being a prosperous undertaking. The coal industry is much more important to this country than the rubber industry, and the same line of thought can surely be applied to it. Hon. Members of the Labour party do not realise how far the Prime Minister has gone. He proposes, I understand, to give elasticity to the industry, to leave an open field for negotiation. That is not unreasonable. Unless you legislate for wages as well as for hours, you are putting all the people in the industry in an entirely impossible position. The hope on which the 1919 Act was based has not been fulfilled. Look at the Sankey Report, and you will find that Justice Sankey recommended a reduction of hours on the premise that the output of coal would not fall. As a matter of fact, output has fallen. Hon. Members opposite say that more could be produced if this thing, that thing, and the other thing were available, but the broad fact remains that more coal is not being produced.

Because the men are often working three or four days a week instead of five or six.

That is another question. I am talking about output per man per day, and what I say is a fact. I am not attributing blame to anyone, but merely stating the fact. The basis on which that alteration was made has not been realised.

When there is broken time it results in a loss in individual production.

I agree that with broken time there is a reduction of output, but I challenge anyone to contradict the broad statement that I have made.

I accept the challenge. Look at the figures I have in this document before me. It relates to a time before the subsidy last year. The figures for the Eastern area, in the month of June, were 5,896,000 tons. When July came and the coal was required, the figure went up to 8,271,000 tons. That shows that when the men got the chance to produce the coal out they got it out.

I have no doubt that more coal was produced when more days were worked. But, after all, the hon. Member is quoting a certain period. I am talking of an Act passed in 1919, and I say that, broadly speaking, the output per man in the shorter period did not come up to what it was in the longer period. I do not know why hon. Members should be surprised at that statement.

14⅔ per cent. was added to the wage of the man at the coal face in order to make up for the shorter day. We know the result of the shorter day.

That is quite right. It was assumed at the time that production would go up, but that expecta- tion has not been realised. The rise in wages in 1924 was given by the coalowners with the general idea that the coal trade was to be more prosperous.

The right hon. Gentleman is quoting only a portion of the Sankey Report. He has not mentioned the fact that if the output came up to the pre-War standard the hours were to be reduced to six per day.

You reduce from eight to seven hours. Then it will be from six hours to five, and on that basis, when you work no hours at all you will produce still more coal. Speaking with some experience, as one of the first people to introduce shorter time, I say that there are certain limitations in these matters. You can get greater output only under certain conditions. There is nothing axiomatic about it. There was a rise in wages in 1924 which the industry was not entitled to pay. As far as I understood the Prime Minister's statement, it was that on these two points you ought now to concentrate. I can quite understand the natural disinclination to go back to a longer working day, and I can understand, also, the idea that a longer working day would increase unemployment, but that does not necessarily follow. At any rate, it is a proposal that might be given a trial, and it is conceivable that instead of having more unemployment you would have more employment.

It may be thought that I am using a rather contradictory argument in regard to the reduction of prices, and the reduction of costs, but I think I can show the Committee that I am not doing so. Ultimately, whatever arrangements you may make, the markets of the world belong to the cheapest producer. You can never come to any arrangement, outside this country or in this country, and hope to maintain your position unless your production costs are low. I am in favour of stabilising the price, so as to give a reasonable remuneration to capital and to labour. It is equally important to recognise—and this is a point which has been overlooked—that by simply doing that you are not dealing with the whole problem. I assure you that if you wish to get the share which this country ought to have in the export markets of the world, you must demonstrate, and show on your cost of production, what you are capable of. Therefore, the two things must go together.

The Prime Minister pointed out in his speech that in the coal industry you have two methods of ascertaining wages. One is the minimum, and the other arises from the ascertainment. The proper policy, to my mind, from the economic point of view, is to try to keep your minimum low and recoup yourself on your ascertainment. And that ascertainment—the manner in which profits are shared and calculated—is, I think, capable of a great deal of improvement. The basic idea of the 1921 agreement—the profit-sharing basis—is a good one, and the reason why it has been so ineffectual is because, unfortunately, there have been no profits to share. It is obviously the case that if you could go back to the state of affairs which existed when the industry was doing well, all this trouble would not arise, and the advantage of that agreement would be much more realised.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the actual figures of the profits that have been made since that ratio of wages and profits was established in July, 1921? Does he know the actual figures admitted by the coalowners to-day?

I refer to the figures over the whole industry, and not in certain lines, and the total is £66,000,000 up to the end of 1925.

They are getting 52 per cent. reduction during that time. That is their share.

The higher the figures are, the better the whole business is, and the better for the miners.

The right hon. Gentleman says no profits have been made in the industry. He was speaking of the conditions under which the ratio of wages and profits was determined. I have told him the actual figure of profits from July, 1921, to the end of 1925. It is £66,000,000, and the share which the workers have got is a 52 per cent. reduction in their wages in that time.

I cannot follow the last part of the right hon. Gentleman's argument. I do not know to what 52 per cent. he is referring.

I am referring to a 52 per cent. reduction in wages since the new method of determining the ratio of profits and wages came into existence on 31st July, 1921. Month after month the wages of the men went down until at the end of 1925 their wages had been reduced by 52 per cent., while profits were made amounting to £66,000,000.

I am afraid we cannot argue out this question across the Floor of the House, but I should have thought that 88 per cent. of £66,000,000 was £88 per cent. of £66,000,000.

The 88 per cent. simply goes to the minimum wage, and not as profits. That is your profit-sharing scheme.

The right hon. Gentleman must know that wages questions connected with the coal industry are very complicated, and we seem to be at cross purposes upon them. I was not responsible for that scheme. I do not know if the right hon. Gentleman was responsible, but he was there, I believe, representing the miners. He is more responsible than I for it.

It never was accepted, and it is not accepted now. It was thrust upon the men.

The right hon. Gentleman is usually very calm, and reflective in his methods.

As far as my recollection goes, this scheme endeavoured to establish some kind of profit-sharing in the coal industry which never existed before in that industry.

I do not want to go into the subject of profit sharing generally, but I was pointing out that in that direction is the most hopeful prospect. Does the right hon. Gentleman seriously challenge or dispute that fact?

The right hon. Gentleman is directing attention to a particular profit sharing scheme which was introduced five years ago. It was forced first of all by the Government of that time upon the miners of the Kingdom. It is the biggest mockery, so far as profits are concerned to the workman that the mind of man can conceive. We were never a party to it. It was never agreed upon, and therefore the right hon. Gentleman when he is speaking ought to know the facts of the position.

Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us how much £66,000,000 represents in profit per ton? I work it out at 1s. 1d. gross profit per ton, and when you deduct all the mine owners' charges, it means about 8d. If the mine workers had the lot it would have meant about 6 per cent. increase in wages.

It represents about 11 per cent. on the capital invested since the time that profit sharing scheme was started.

I do not think I ought to start an argument between the right hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member on this side representing two different aspects of the question. The right hon. Gentleman knows as well as I do that this particular scheme of ascertainment involves a very peculiar calculation. I quite agree that some alteration may be necessary, and unless it is connected more closely with the output of the industry I do not think you will get the benefit which you intend. I was merely giving an illustration of the idea that you should build up on the profits of the industry a higher scale of wages, and that you could do so when the present depression passes away. The Govern- ment have promised legislation of a very drastic and novel kind dealing very largely, as I understand, with the question of amalgamation. There again I do not think the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ogmore was quite fair to the Prime Minister. The right hon. Gentleman expressed disappointment that the period during which voluntary amalgamation could be made was three years and that compulsion should only come in at the end of that period. I think that is not unreasonable and I hope no compulsion will be necessary. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Horne) pointed out that amalgamation will not necessarily effect the saving in costs which some people imagine. There again, you have to deal with individual instances. An hon. Member pointed out as a happy idea that if you amalgamated a number of enterprises you could discharge practically half your staff, thereby saving general charges. One would imagine that these officials were doing no work. You cannot put more than a certain amount of work on a general manager or a secretary or anybody else; any more than you can do so in regard to a person working in the mines.

I know cases where amalgamations have taken place and the general manager belonging to the company which had taken over the pit did the whole lot, and all the other officials of the new pit went away.

That must have been a greatly overstaffed business, and that general manager ought to have twice the salary for doing double the work. However, that really does not affect the present position, and it is the present position with which we have to deal. What will affect the position under any scheme of this kind are problems of remodelling the pits and of new machinery, and of grouping and of working from one shaft to a number of other points and things of that kind. Hon. Members who are acquainted with mines know that it is not a question of months, but of years to deal with these matters, and it may be in some cases 18 months, two years or even longer before economies will come. I was reading only this morning a rather interesting article giving some views by a well known German expert on our English coal position. The article throws light on our position as compared with the position over there. He points out the enormous number of small undertakings run at very high cost in our coalfields, compared with the relatively small number of great enterprises which carry on the industry in Germany. There is no doubt that anyone who studies what has taken place there, will find that there is in time a very considerable advantage to be gained by amalgamation.

7.0 P.M.

I do not despair about the position of coal. Some people take a gloomy view of coal now and in the future, but the development of industry has no finality, and although coal has been severely hit by hydro-electric works and oil, it is beginning to resume its old position to a large extent. To-day in this country we have various forms of modern fuel plant, but on the other hand we have seen developments in the use of the turbine on a coal-fuel basis, and experiments are being made by which powdered coal can be used in explosive engines, instead of oil, and in the next 10 or 15 years we may see the whole method of transportation revolutionised. On the other hand, the development of the distillation of coal either by low temperature process or some synthetic process is making strides in every country in the world, and we, I hope, will not be behind. A great German concern is now erecting plant to make synthetic oil to the extent of two or three hundred thousand tons a year. It would mean a great increase in the consumption of coal. I am told you cannot compel people to accept results. You cannot compel people to work for wages. Practical experience has shown that the great mass of people are ready to accept an award once given. The people in this country, above all others, are ready to accept the decision of Parliament when it is on the Statute Book. Once let us achieve decision and concentrate this discussion, and get it back again to concrete propositions on the Floor of this House in the concrete form of a Bill, and I believe many of our difficulties will vanish.

The destinies of this country cannot be left in the hands of three or four persons representing any group of people in this country. Hon. Members cheer that. They speak of three or four people, two on each side. It seems an intolerable situation that a great country should be held up, that the nation should be threatened with the extinction of its trade, that many women and children who have no interest should suffer, that an Empire should begin to crack, because three or four people cannot find a formula when they meet together in order to get over this difficulty. I say, if they cannot do it, let other people be found. [ Interruption. ] I am not prepared to accept any four or five people in this country. Here we are, the Mother of Parliaments, a body that has passed through more difficult times. We can impose the will of the people of this country on any section of this country. I do not agree with the Prime Minister when he said that no Government could impose a settlement. The Government will have to impose. You really cannot go on, as at present, hopelessly week by week and nothing happening. Throw your mind's eye back a few weeks to the middle of the great national crisis. The people of this country volunteered in hundreds of thousands. They were ready to make any sacrifice.

I did not say they volunteered in the pits. That might yet come too. People have volunteered in hundreds of thousands to sustain the civic life of the country. [ Interruption. ] What is the disappointment of the country to-day when, having gone through that, and shown the whole world the stability and common-sense of this country, it is in danger of becoming the victim of creeping paralysis instead of sudden death. Look at the picture. Markets taken away; Russian coal taking our markets; Russian gold paying the people not to work while their markets are being taken! [ Interruption. ]It is a pitiful condition, but it is a fact unfortunately. That cannot be gainsaid. Five thousand tons of Russian anthracite was landed in Genoa a few days ago. Do not imagine when you go back that you will find all the contracts open and waiting.

It is quite impossible to carry on the Debate with these interruptions.

If there had been no lock-out, there would have been none of this trouble.

I will not go back on whether there was a lock-out or not. The hon. Member knows that in a large number of pits the men could return to work to-morrow. The right hon. Member for Ogmore said that was loyalty. It is loyalty which, I think, is not very useful either to the miners or to the country.

No, but we do not want to repeat an experience like that. Nobody would welcome peace more than the hon. Member himself. I am hoping the Prime Minister's speech made a great move in that direction. If hon. Members opposite read it quietly, they will see it is the first time the Government have proposed legislation to carry out a large part of the Samuel Report. In the early stages of these negotiations there was a very critical point, which is always being raised. The Miners' Federation said that, if the Government would implement the Samuel Report, they would he prepared to discuss the question of wages. The Government is ready to implement a very considerable proportion of that Report by legislation in this House. That does create a new factor in the situation. It is a serious step forward, and I hope hon. Members opposite, who, like ourselves represent constituencies which have suffered enormously, and, like ourselves, would like to see peace, will not reject with scorn any attempt made by the Government to get peace. It does not create an atmosphere that would be useful. Let us see whether we cannot find points of contact rather than points of difference; whether we cannot in this House build a bridge between those who unfortunately seem to have got so far apart; and not go on watching our country declining, our industries perishing, our people becoming more depressed while we sit here impotent.

I shall not attempt to follow the right hon. Gentleman in the elaborate survey of the coal situation, but I would rather seek in the few words I will say to bring the House back to the proposals made by the Prime Minister. Those proposals have been commented upon in several quarters, but I have not heard anybody make this observation about the method of the proposals them- selves, that, so far as the method is concerned, it indicates a new departure on the part of the Government. Hitherto the Prime Minister's attitude towards the recommendations of the Commission's Report has been that, in the event of the Report being accepted by the Miners' Federation and the Mining Association, then the Government will be prepared to make certain legislative suggestions. That was the attitude that he took up soon after the Report was published. The Report appeared, I think, on the 6th March, and the Prime Minister, after asking for what was not an excessive time to study its contents, made that statement on the 24th March. Here we are now in the seventh week of this most disastrous stoppage, and to-day for the first time the Government have announced, not that it is going to introduce legislative proposals if other people will only agree, but that it is going to make some proposals—I am not discussing whether they are adequate or complete—whatever other people may do or not do. I think I took down the Prime Minister's words correctly when he said he proposed that this legislation should be presented to the House as soon as possible, whether a settlement was reached or not.

I cannot help thinking that that does indicate a change of method which, however belated some people may think it is, is none the less extremely significant. I think I shall be pardoned for observing that Lord Oxford, for example, whose illness I am sure everyone deplores—in a speech which he made in another place on the first day of the general strike, or just before it, insisted that the Government would find, and he urged that the Government would consider it at once, that it would be necessary to introduce legislation which was supposed more or less to follow the lines of the Report without waiting until they had tried the experiment of promising these good things if only the two parties to the dispute agree. While, therefore, I think there will be a good deal to be said when we examine the Prime Minister's proposals in print as to whether they are anything like adequate or whether they are not a very pale reflection of the recommendations of the Report, it is, I think, right to know that the method the Government are now adopting in the seventh week of the strike is a very different method from the method they have thought good enough hitherto, and it is indicating an intention to take some responsibility on their own account.

As to the proposals, the Prime Minister introduced what, I hope, he will excuse me for saying, was really a quite unintentional but none the less a very inaccurate, and from anybody else it might have been supposed, not an entirely candid reference to a passage in the Commission's Report. He warned the Committee and the country, and of course very naturally, that they must not expect too much from proposals in the nature of unification or reorganisation. I can quite understand his doing that He read a sentence from the Commission's Report and reminded the Committee how the Commissioners had said, with regard to proposals of this sort, that the effect upon output in general and upon wages might be very small. May I point out to the right hon. Gentleman, who I know would never do this consciously, that he is really quoting from a passage of the Report which is not referring to this matter at all. He is quoting from a paragraph which is dealing with a complaint which seems to have been made before the Commission by those who represent the miners, that there had been serious loss of output due to failures of the management to provide the colliers with proper supplies of tubs, rails, timber and other requisites. It is in connection with and at the end of that paragraph that the remark is made that of course the effect upon output in general is quite meagre.

That passage is wholly misapplied and misquoted if it is supposed to represent the views of the Commission, as regards their proposals for the improved organisation and increased efficiency of the industry, and if the Prime Minister will turn back to the previous page of the Report he will see that, not under the paragraph from which he was quoting, but from an earlier paragraph, this is to be read, and perhaps the beginning of the paragraph is not without significance:

When I come to the proposals themselves, the one which, of course, at once attracts attention, at any rate the attention of anybody who has carefully studied the Report, is the suggestion of the Prime Minister that the way of escape is to be found along the lines of authorising extended hours. I speak, as the Committee will understand, as no expert, but merely as a plain man who is trying to study the Report and to read such documents as are open to him, and, of course, approaching this immensely complicated and technical subject as an ordinary man, it is very natural for the ordinary man to assume that, as between reducing wages, which those who receive the wages still think are too low, and extending hours, say, from seven hours to eight, a longer working day would be preferred. It is the sort of view which suggests itself to the mind of the ordinary newspaper reader, and, if I may presume to say so, of the ordinary Member of Parliament, who has not had occasion to study the Report very closely. But let it be noted that this suggestion of the Prime Minister, whatever else it is, is flying in the face of the deliberate view, of the unanimous view of the Royal Commission. This very subject of extended hours, as anyone can see who looks at the Report, is made the text of a most detailed, elaborate chapter—I think it is Chapter XIII—in which the Commissioners argue the case out pro and con. They refer to evidence which is in the subsequent volumes, and they come to the unanimous conclusion that it would be a mistake to make a recommendation of that sort.

It is not immaterial also to observe that, though it may not be a final reason against it, it is a recommendation which was opposed and is opposed by the Miners' Federation. After all, if it is supposed to commend itself because it is likely to be more easily acceptable to the men in question, it cannot be altogether irrelevant to observe that the Miners' Federation are and have been most definitely opposed to it. For the moment, I am not discussing if it is right or wrong, but those are the facts, and therefore, though at first sight it is extremely plausible to urge, as between unpleasant alternatives, that an extended working day must be preferable to a reduction of wages—though it is well to notice that really both are involved—it is quite clear that at any rate the spokesmen of the industry on the men's side are most definitely of another opinion, and I would ask the Committee to consider, not myself claiming the smallest expert knowledge of it, whether, in the circumstances in which the coal industry stands, it can really be the way to a solution to extend hours.

Extending hours surely must involve either the production of more coal or a reduction in the number of miners employed to get it. Now take those alternatives in turn. I rather make out, from the Commissioners' Report, that they think if each miner's output was to be calculated on the increased hours, we might add one-eighth, which is something like 30,000,000 additional tons of coal. There is always the question to be considered as to whether, if you make the coal cheaper, it is therefore better able to be sold in competition, but putting that aside for one moment, the first fact is that our trouble at the present moment is not that we want more coal, but that we want more customers, and I apprehend that that is the first consideration which presents itself to a great many people when the proposal is offered to them to extend the permitted hours. The second way of looking at it seems to be this: Of course, it is quite possible to extend hours without necessarily increasing the glut of coal, but that can only be, I apprehend, because the quantity to be produced will remain the same as before the longer working day, on the terms that you cut out of employment a number which, I see, is calculated at 130,000 miners, which, whatever else it may be, does not seem to be a very fruitful way of solving this difficulty.

I know it is stated—and an hon. Member below me has been kind enough to remind me—that if you could, by getting a larger production for the same wages bill, thereby produce coal more cheaply, you would be able to push back the frontier, the unhappily narrowing frontier abroad, which limits our sale of coal for export, but I should have thought that calculations of that sort must have been very present to the minds of the Commissioners. I cannot believe that any competent body of men, considering the proposal for extended hours, would not have that most obviously before their minds, and I am bound myself to pay considerable attention to the fact that the Commission, admittedly perfectly impartial and extremely skilled people, who worked at this thing for months very hard, have come unanimously to the conclusion, notwithstanding the recommendation of the employers, that it was not by this method that relief was to be found.

Then it is said—and I think my right hon. Friend the Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Horne) mentioned it in his speech—that the thing that is the matter with the British coal trade is that owing to its short working day, we are seriously handicapped in international competition. I look with great interest to the Royal Commission to see how that stands, and I see that although it is commonly supposed that a seven hours' day, using the expression as it is understood in our own coal trade, is, as compared with the Continent, abnormally short—that is a very common popular assumption—the Commissioners say on page 172 that if they were to recommend what was pressed upon them in some quarters, namely, the extension of the hours from seven to eight, that would be front of these proposals they put a proposal which is repudiated by every single member of the Commission?

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman refer also to page 236 of the Report, where it clearly states: "Should the miners freely prefer some extension of hours, with a less reduction of wages, Parliament would no doubt be prepared to authorise it."

I will. It says:

"We trust, however, that this will not occur."

I am not in any way questioning the right hon. and learned Gentleman's statement as to the views of the Commission. All that I ask is that he should not forget the other proposal.

I am much obliged to the hon. Gentleman, and, if I may say so, I think his intervention was quite reasonable. I was not attempting to do more than to say that, when the Government do bring forward what I think are very belated legislative proposals on their own account, it is a noteworthy circumstance that the proposal which they do make does plainly run counter to the judgment of the Commissioners themselves. It is quite true, as the hon. Gentleman says—and by all means let us make allowance for it—that it may conceivably be—for my part. I hope it may be—a method of promoting some arrangement, if arrangement be possible; but the fact does remain—I am not making an attack on anybody—that it is useful to see what the document says, and that the Commission, in their document, most certainly take the other view, and, as the hon. Gentleman candidly noted just now, say that even though Parliament might authorise it, as far as the Commissioners are concerned, they trust that it will not occur.

The next point upon which I wish to say a word has to do with the side of wages. There is a recommendation that is found in the Report of the Commission under the heading of "Wages" which has received very little reference, I think, in public discussion, or, indeed, in any statement that has been made from the Government Benches. I think the Prime Minister did just refer to it. There is a proposal which was elaborately investigated, and which was deliberately recommended by the Commission in connection with wages, suggesting a revision of the wages system by introducing into it a scheme of family allowances. It is a novelty as far as the British coal trade is concerned, but just as my hon. Friends above the Gangway naturally claim that all due attention should be paid to the Commissioners' view about lengthening the hours, so, I am perfectly certain, the fact that this is a novelty so far as the British coal trade is concerned will not in the least prevent it being most carefully considered by all concerned, when it is recommended unanimously by the Commission. It is worth observing, I think, that there was evidence before the Commission that in the mining industry on the Continent, in the European organisation of coalmining, this system is almost universal, and there was evidence before the Commission, and apparently uncontradicted evidence, that where this system of a family allowance in some way connected with wages operated on the Continent, there was a growing disposition on the part of the miners who had had experience of it to approve it.

Let me state, if I understand it, in the simplest terms how I gather that it is intended to work. Assume that you have got a given wages cost per ton, or assume, in reference to a given pit or set of pits, that the wages bill amounts to so much. The question arises as to the distribution of the proceeds of that wages bill as between the wage-earners who have, and the wage-earners who have not family dependents. This at least is clear. If other difficulties could be got out of the way; if there are no serious economic objections, if custom and tradition in this country are not too strong, there really can be no doubt that a higher standard of living could be maintained for the mining population by this system, because a home where children depend on the earnings of the wage-earner would receive more than the individual who has no dependents. Therefore everybody who is sincerely interested—and this is a matter in which everyone in this House is deeply interested—in trying to secure a higher standard of living for the miner must consider this proposal of family allowances very carefully, because it will mean that the family home gets a larger proportion, whereas the bachelor miner gets a rather smaller proportion of the total wages to be divided. The introduction of this system, as the Commissioners point out, will certainly raise the standard of living, while the wages bill as a total remains unchanged. They go further. The Commissioners think that this system may largely neutralise the evil effects that must result from some partial or temporary fall in wages.

The Commissioners make two further points about family allowances. First, they say that it might be that you could have a scheme of family allowances which would secure that those allowances continued to be paid so long as the father remained on the books of the colliery even although he himself was out. The Commissioners say that if this is a feasible scheme, and they think it is, that would automatically lighten the distress arising through the unemployment of the wage-earner, and it does so in a way which has no reactions, which is not partisan or unfair as between the parties to the dispute. The second result which the Commission say could be secured is this. You cannot put more to the wages bill of the family man without giving rather less to the man who has no dependants, but in the coal industry there is a considerable amount of occasional absenteeism. There are a good many people who do not work as many days as they might, and the Commissioners say that, presumably, the people who are chiefly tempted to do that are the men who have earned what they are content with, without doing a further day's work and they will be, for the most part, people who have not got dependants. Therefore, say the Commission, you may expect a man who, under this system, might at first sight suffer by a family allowance arrangement, to correct the error, so far as it injures him, by more regular work and less willingness to take a day off. I am saying nothing about it in my own judgment, because my judgment is worth nothing, but it seems to me to be a very important thing to remember that this is most clearly and elaborately expounded in the Report of the Commission. I should very much like to ask whoever is to speak from the Government Benches whether, among the matters considered by the Government, this most interesting proposal, which obtains, as I have said, very largely in the coal trade on the Continent of Europe, is one which commends itself to the Government; whether the Minister of Mines and his officials see overwhelming objections to it, or whether, on the contrary they hope to do something to encourage it.

In concluding what I want to say, may I make this observation? We all, even the right hon. Member for Carmarthen (Sir A. Mond), are apt to concentrate upon aspects of this frightfully complicated subject and to get excited or enthusiastic about them without keeping steadily in mind what is the fundamental question that arises. The fundamental question, as it seems to me is this. If you look, for example, at the "Ministry of Labour Gazette" for last April, you will find that the number of insured persons in the coal-mining industry is given as no less than 1,240,000 persons, nearly all of them men. Just consider what an immense figure that is as compared with the population of this country as a whole. Taking the population of Great Britain as about 45,000,000, that means not that you have got one miner in every 40 adults, but that you have got one man directly connected with coalmining and seeking to earn a wage by it out of every 40 of the population of men, women and children. That is an enormous fraction. The Commission say that if you add all the persons who are indirectly dependent upon coal you get to something like one-twelfth of the population. It seems to me that it is not in the slightest desirable to be gloomy, but the fundamental question for the country is, "Have we such an industrial and economic future in front of us as that we can look forward to continuing to see employment for so big a fraction of the population in this trade?" I hope it will be so.

The right hon. Member for Carmarthen has concluded his otherwise gloomy speech with some consoling and optimistic hopes. It cannot be disputed that the enormous fraction of our population which has hitherto looked to get its living from coal is as big as it is because of developments in the past in this island of a most extraordinary character. The coal industry was associated at a comparatively early date with the develop- ment of many industries in this island. It is intimately connected with the development of the mercantile marine from these shores. I hope I shall not be considered prejudiced if I say that it has something to do with the practice of Free Trade. But, at any rate, it was a series of very remarkable events which made the trade possible. It seems to me that the real fundamental question for the country and for every serious minded citizen is, "Can we look forward to seeing in the future so big a fraction of our population thus employed?" It is quite plain that nationalisation will not make any difference. It is quite plain that a subsidy hereafter and to the end of time is a perfectly ludicrous suggestion. Take the consumption of coal within our own boundaries—our own domestic and industrial consumption, of which the industrial is more important than the domestic. It is a very large part; about three-quarters of the whole. But if I understand the figures rightly, they go to show that the actual internal consumption of coal in this island has not gone down as compared with the figures before the War. I have seen the figures of 1924 and 1925, and if they are contrasted with the total figures of coal consumed by our factories and domestically before the War, you will not find that it has gone down.

There is no doubt a certain transfer from one area to another. For example, there are new pits which have been opened in portions of Yorkshire and Nottinghamshire, but those new pits are being opened on approved methods, and those new methods, on the whole, tend to reduce rather than to increase the amount of labour that is needed for a given production. Therefore, I do not see how, so far as our domestic and internal consumption of coal is concerned, we can very confidently count on a rapid and considerably increased demand. No doubt, if we could get an improvement in trade, it would reflect itself in the demand for coal. This seems to me to be essentially a matter where the Government must have been considering the great economic movements of the present time. To what extent, in the view of those who have the best reason to know, do they really think we can make up for the loss that has become so serious by the loss of sales abroad? The figures for sales abroad are of the most disturbing character. I leave out 1923, which was an abnormal year. Whereas for the 12 months ending December, 1924, we exported coal to the amount of 61,500,000 tons, we only exported in 1925 to the amount of 50,000,000 tons. The figures for the whole of 1926 are not available, but, taking the first four months ending April, we find that whereas in the first four months of 1924 we exported 20,500,000 tons, in 1925, in. the same period, we exported 17,500,000 tons, and in 1926 almost exactly the same figure. That is with the subsidy, which has had the effect, as was pointed out to-day in that most remarkable speech by my right hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Mr. Hartshorn)—a speech which, I may be allowed to say, was without one single provocative word, and which was plainly delivered for the information and benefit of the country as a whole—it was plain from that speech that the subsidy has had the effect of greatly easing for the moment the sale of this coal abroad without really bringing benefit to the miners. I could not help feeling about my right hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore—I do not think the reflection will be out of place—that it is one of the incidental misfortunes of the present time that the fact that the Labour Government took within its ranks many of the most authoritative leaders of labour has led, in too many cases, to their being withdrawn from the actual and active leadership of the men. There is no case in which that is more obviously to be deplored than in the case of the right hon. Gentleman.

If it be the case that we cannot expect any great increase of the home demand for coal, and if there be this serious and continuing drop in the demand from abroad, what is the answer to the question which I have ventured to put to the House? I do not see how we can expect entirely to recover the markets abroad which we used to have, in face of the substitution of oil for coal, and for other reasons, and I think it important for the House to have the most authoritative information from the Ministry of Labour, or some other Department, as to whether we are, under the guidance of the Government, planning for a future when this same large fraction of the population will find its livelihood in this occupation, or whether, on the other hand, we have to steel ourselves to see some very material readjustment in the life-work of many of these men.

In reflecting on this coal question, it has seemed to me that there is this great distinction to be made between coal and most of the other staple products which British labour puts upon the market and British industry sells. Whereas in the case of nearly all British products—not quite all, but nearly all—there tends to be a more or less standard, or average or normal cost per unit at any given time, it is not so in the case of coal, and it cannot be so.

If, for example, a man is thinking of placing an order to build a tramp steamer at any given time, no doubt he has his good reasons for choosing the Thames or the Tyne or the Tees or the Clyde or Belfast, but, broadly speaking, he would expect before he gets his tenders for an ordinary pattern tramp steamer that the builders would know they would be able to build it at a prime cost of so much per ton. If a man engaged in making steel or building a bridge, of if he is making the normal sort of woollen or cotton goods, there is running through the industry, as between one producer and another, one shop and another, one factory and another, a sort of natural unit of prime cost. In the case of coal it is not so. I can think of only two instances which are exceptions: coal is one, and agricultural produce is another—both natural products of the ground. In view of the fact that you have the deep pit and the shallow pit, the wet pit and the dry pit, the pit where a man has to go miles to get to the coal face and another pit where the coal is near at hand, one pit where the hewer is hewing a thick seam of coal and another where most of his labour goes to taking out the shale and the dross to get at a thin seam, I do not see how we can expect to get this prime level of normal average cost per unit at any given time.

That is what leads me to think we have to be moderate in anticipating great results from reorganisation and unification. My right hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore quoted instances from the Report which showed how one colliery was making a profit and another colliery a loss. I believe it is perfectly true that there are many cases where the difference between profit and loss is really to be explained by the difference between good management and good equipment on the one hand, and bad management and bad equipment on the other, and I know that my right hon. Friend has instances of that sort in South Wales. While that is true, I cannot help thinking that the House and the country ought to bear in mind that when we are dealing with coal, which, as far as one can see, will always have to be got under varying degrees of difficulty, one is dealing with a substance which in the nature of things will be produced at one time and in one place at one figure, and at a very different figure in another place. The economic result of this is that when the British coal trade is booming, and we are in a position to sell all the coal we can raise, the colliery company which has the most expensive pit to work, and, peradventure, has got the worst equipment, may be able to sell its products at a price which gives it a profit, and other people who can work their coal at a cheaper price, or have more efficient pits, will get a still bigger profit; but the moment the situation changes, so that that part of the law of supply and demand which is operating is not the law of supply but the law of demand, the moment your customers are not clamouring for your coal, leaving you to call the price, then nothing you can do will completely get rid of this inherent difficulty—that the coalowner whose coal can be produced most efficiently and most cheaply will get the orders, and the coal that costs more to produce will lack customers.

These considerations, gloomy though they are, ought to be borne in mind because, to my way of thinking, they go to the root of the coal problem; and while I am looking forward to seeing in print what the Prime Minister has to propose, and am at present very strongly of opinion that he has not gone far enough—I can see nothing about royalties, I can see nothing about municipalities having the power to sell coal, I can see nothing about really striking and fundamental provisions as to selling the coal—I ask the House to note that the Government have at any rate gone one further stage. After a stoppage of seven weeks they have abandoned the hopeless position that they are not going to do anything unless other people agree, and have recognised that the duty of a Government is to make proposals which they deem to be proper and adequate and to take the consequences.

May I ask for the indulgence of the House on this first occasion on which I have had the honour of addressing it. I feel some timidity in approaching this subject, seeing the contentious nature of the Debate, but I realise how very essential it is for some early solution of this great problem to be brought forward. The constituency I have the honour to represent depends very largely upon a settlement of this dispute for its prosperity during the present season. If this dispute be not settled, many thousands of people will lose a great part of their livelihood this year. Therefore it is most necessary that something should be done, and that soon. One of the recommendations of the Royal Commission was a discontinuance of the subsidy, and one presumes, therefore, that the Commissioners must have had some idea that the industry would get back to an economic basis. That being so, one is apt to ask, what is the idea of asking the miner to work longer hours and for a less wage?

As a fairly large employer of labour I have found that the payment of high wages is the very best system of conducting business at this time, and anything that any of us can do to maintain the standard of wages ought to be done. The miners, obviously, have an idea that the industry is able to provide the wage they seek, otherwise they would not be so determined in their efforts to resist all reductions. If that be so, and coal being so important to all the other industries of the country, I venture to suggest that some attention should be paid to the problem from the output basis. If the output of coal be increased, obviously, there will be a reduction of price. I suggest that everybody engaged in the industry, whatever his position, should be put on this output basis. From the managing director down to the hewer at the coal face, all ought to have a share-up in the industry on an output basis, and that would eventually bring the industry to those amalgamations which the Royal Commission seem to desire so much. If it were not possible to take out of the industry, in administration and other ways, more than the required amount as set out in the output scheme, then, obviously, the colliery that was producing 1,000 tons per week would ultimately, if it were to be successful, have to amalgamate with the colliery producing 20,000 tons per week, and so we should get a fairer ratio of benefit from the industry than we have at the present time. I am sure everyone desires that the miner, who has an arduous job, should have the best remuneration it is possible for him to get from the industry; but, at the same, everyone will ultimately have to face the economic fact that we cannot take out of the industry more than it will yield, and when we find that we are being beaten on price in the world's markets, and business is being taken from us, obviously, we shall have to produce cheaper coal if we are going to sell it abroad.

8.0 P.M.

What I feel concerned about is to see that the output per miner has fallen 10 per cent. since 1913. I wish to ask the British miner whether he presumes to say that his production of coal in a seven hours' day will be equivalent to that of the foreigner with whom he is competing and who is working an eight hours' day? It would be a very nice thing if he could presume to say that his physical superiority will give him the necessary coal to compete economically with his foreign rivals, but, unfortunately, that is not the case. [HON. MEMBERS: "Yes!"] If he is not able in seven hours to produce, at the same price, the same quantity of coal as his competitor in other countries, obviously he will have to readjust his position to the altered circumstances—either he will have to produce more coal in the time that he is working or he will have to work longer hours. We do not want to have our own men on a level different from other persons. They ought to start off fair and square, so that they can compete properly.

This is a great, and may I say inglorious, struggle. Whichever side wins the dispute, the whole country has lost—the people working in industry have lost, and greater even than all, the people who have any intimate connection with the dispute are to-day suffering very severely from the effects of this struggle. I do hope that during the next few days we shall, at any rate, see a resumption of negotiations between the miners and the mineowners. If such resumption should be brought about then, I feel sure, that with the expressions of opinion that have been given utterance to this afternoon by so many distinguished right hon. Gentlemen on either side of the House, the probability is that there will be some amicable settlement. May I add that the agriculturists, whom I have the honour to represent, are very concerned, because their own wages are so low, at the continued non-success of negotiations in the mining industry. While the agriculturist is, I am sure, prepared to bear his fair share of the burden of the ordinary financial obligations of the country, he cannot afford at this time to help or subsidise people who are getting a far larger wage than himself.

I beg to move to reduce the Vote by £100.

Before proceeding further, I want to take the opportunity of complimenting the hon. Gentleman the Member for the Buckrose Division (Mr. Braithwaite) on his eloquent contribution to the Debate, and to express the hope that that speech is the forerunner of many brilliant contributions in the future. There is one thing in which, I think, we all agree in the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carmarthen (Sir A. Mond) and that is in the seriousness of the situation with which we at present find ourselves face to face. The fact that we are now in the seventh week of one of the most disastrous stoppages in our industrial history is a proof of the seriousness of the situation. I think it shows the wisdom of the House in again discussing the mining situation. Notwithstanding the gloomy views that were expressed by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carmarthen, and the observations made by the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon), and that other factors of industrial power require to be taken into account to-day in this matter, the mines are still the most priceless industrial asset that we hold as a nation.

Our coal is potentially still a greater source of wealth and welfare than ever it has been in our history. If by any action on the part of the men employed either on one side or the other in the industry, or by any action on the part of the Government, we ruin our coal trade, then we must make up our minds that industrial Britain will drop astern. We are faced with a tragedy similar to that which has happened four times in the last 14 years, namely, an entire stoppage in the mining industry. The reason for these coal stoppages has been the same all through, simply the determination of the miner to secure for himself as high a standard of life as obtains in other homes in the land. No one will deny that the miner, from the point of view of the man's work, the danger faced, or the discomfort he has to endure, makes a high contribution to the common weal, and one that justifies the claim that he is making for as high a standard of life in his home as obtains in the other homes in the land. Under present conditions the wages paid to the miner, looked at either by a comparison with the wages earned in other occupations, or from the point of view of the cost of living, are undoubtedly, and admittedly, too low. It is so admitted on all hands.

In the course of the speech which this afternoon we have heard from the Prime Minister, the right hon. Gentleman told us that one of the reasons why we were face to face with a critical situation in the mining industry was that because for a number of years prices had fallen consistently and persistently. May I add to that statement that during the same years, 1921 to 1925, wages have fallen as persistently and consistently! The Prime Minister forgot to say that if you took the figures of wages during those years which had fallen persistently and consistently, that that fall was to such an extent that the miner in that period had had to give a contribution, in terms of wages, towards finding a solution of the mining difficulty, amounting to no less than from £150,000,000 to £160,000,000 per year. Surely, in all conscience, that is a contribution substantial enough! Therefore, there need be no surprise in finding the miner endeavouring to maintain his present wage and fighting hard to do so. As a matter of fact, I have never in the course of my long association with the mining industry found the men, and the women—because the men are backed up by their women—with a more grim determination than I have found in the course of this struggle.

Sometimes you see a lot in the papers, and hear a lot on the platforms and in private conversation about the leaders of the miners, and it is suggested that if it were not for the leaders there would be a settlement almost immediately. I want to say this: You only require to go into one of our mining districts to-day and talk with the rank and file, and with the wives of the rank and file, to get rid of that illusion. They never displayed a grimmer determination in the course of a long history to maintain their present standard. Man of peace as I am, I want to say frankly to the Government, and to the House, that I have never seen the miner put forward a juster claim than the one for which he is standing to-day, namely, that he should have as high, a standard of life as that obtaining in the homes of others. The miner also is displaying the same grim, determined attitude so far as hours are concerned. I do not think that there is any one of the aspects of this struggle in which they are more strong than in regard to this question of hours. If anyone will examine the question of hours what they will discover is that the miner is working almost as long hours as any other section of workmen in British industry. What are the hours he works? It is generally supposed that it is a seven hours' day, but the average time of the miner under the surface amounts to 7 hours 39 minutes. When we add to that the extra time worked on week-days and at the week-end, it will be found that the miner, on an average, works almost eight hours a day, so that anyone who talks about the miner having a short day compared with other people is talking without knowledge, and talking simply nonsense. If we compare the day of the British miner with the day worked by miners in other countries, we find that there is very little difference in the hours worked by the Belgians, the Germans, and others, and the British miner. When one thinks of this one also considers that in the hours the British miner works he is producing a bigger output.

The arguments put forward on behalf of the coalowrers during the course of these negotiations both last year and the present year have been that wages should be lowered and that hours should be increased. Leading coalowners seem to take no account of the cost of living, seem to think that the standard of life among the mining population does not count, and that the only thing that counts is to enable the owner to sell his coal cheaper than any of his competitors. If that is the only view that can be put forward by the mine-owners in this struggle, all I have to say is that the position is hopeless indeed, and that there is very little chance of a settlement being come to. The doctrine, if true, rules out any humane feeling. It is a doctrine that rules out the human factor altogether. There is no doubt that the coalowners have too often ruled out the human factor in their dealings with the men. As a cure for our troubles the doctrine is a hopeless one. I think one hon. Member recently associated with the coal trade said that there was a possibility that there would be a large army of volunteers to man the mines. Where will you get them from if you want volunteers to do this work, because, as far as one can judge, they do not exist. It is evident that some section of the country other than the miners will have to get the coal, because the miners are not going to return to work at a lower wage than they have been receiving up to the present time. As a practical miner, and as one who has been connected with the mining industry for the whole of my life, I have in the course of that time gained a little knowledge of the commercial side of the industry as well, and I have no hesitation in saying that I do not think the objects of the miners in attempting to maintain their present standard of living will be attained or the difficulties solved unless the industry is re-organised and placed on a footing entirely different from that upon which it stands to-day.

Whenever one begins to talk about reorganisation, you see the mine owners smiling; they say, "That is a fine, round word, but what does it really mean?" I will point out what it means in my experience and in my opinion as a practical man. I believe we ought to reorganise the industry and put it in the position of supplying the world with the power it needs in the form in which it is required to-day. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carmarthen (Sir A. Mond) said he had read a very interesting article about the development of the German coal trade. I have also been reading an interesting article about the development of the coal trade in a paper, and I will give a brief quotation or two from that article to show that the idea of putting the mining industry into the position of supplying the world with the power it wants is one that is getting a greater amount of attention at the hands of some of our competitors than it is receiving in this country. The Prime Minister, in the course of his speech, stated that he thought some of our collieries were as well equipped as those of any other country in the world. I question very seriously if that statement is correct. I find that in the article to which I have referred it is stated:

My second point is that reorganisation would be of great benefit. The industry must be reorganised so that the whole of the money earned will find its way into the common fund from which wages and profits are paid. Up till now a considerable amount of the money was finding its way into other pockets than those of the men directly engaged in the industry. Those who were distributing the coal, both in the home and the export markets, were pocketing a large part of the proceeds, money which should go into the fund from which wages are paid. One of the directions in which reorganisation is necessary is in regard to the unification of the industry. The Prime Minister dealt with that point in his speech, and he told us what he proposed to do. A number of those who have taken part in the discussion this afternoon have been very doubtful about these benefits of reor- ganisation, but, fortunately, we have an example of the benefits of unification in an industry in our own country. In the shale fields of Scotland we have a striking example of the benefits of unification. Up till 1919 in the shale district we had six shale mining companies operating and competing with each other in the area where this product was produced. In the year 1919 a scheme of unification was agreed upon which placed the whole of the shale industry under one managing director. There was one selling agent and one works employed for making and repairing the plant necessary, and they had one buying arrangement. Here is a quotation from a statement made by that managing director as to the benefits of unification in that industry:

There is a point that has been raised on more than one occasion by the Prime Minister, and he raised it again this afternoon. In raising it in a former speech, he said that he was not prepared to pledge the credit of the British taxpayer indefinitely for any one industry. I do not know a single miner or miners' leader who has asked the Prime Minister to pledge the credit of the British taxpayer indefinitely for this industry, but I want to say quite frankly to the representative of the Government who is now present that this industry is so essential to the continued industrial and commercial prosperity of this country that no Government dare stand aside without giving it the financial assistance that is necessary to enable it to get over its economic difficulties and occupy the same position which it formerly occupied in British industry. The tragedy of the present situation is that more money has been spent during these fateful six weeks than would have subsidised the mining industry for the next six years to come, even at the rate at which the Government was subsidising it during the last nine months. Notwithstanding all the money that has been spent, and, in certain directions, as has already been pointed out, largely misspent, we are still faced with as difficult a situation as before, and are no nearer a solution than we were at the beginning of this fateful struggle.

Frequently, in the course of these discussions, inside this House and outside, men have been asking for a period of peace in order to enable us to reorganise and set this industry again on its feet. I agree that, if that object is to be attained, a period of peace is necessary. A period of peace can be obtained, but it can only be obtained on just and righteous conditions. It can only be obtained by the miners getting from the other sections of the people of this nation the same fair play, the same just and right treatment, as is meted out to their fellow-citizens in other sections of British industry. That is the condition on which this period of peace can be obtained.

Finally, I want to say that I think the speech of the Prime Minister this afternoon is not one that is calculated to bring this fateful struggle to a speedy conclusion. As has been remarked by more speakers than one, I hope that, when we read it to-morrow morning, it may not look as bad as we felt it was while it was being delivered. If it really reads as bad as it seemed to me while I was listening to the right hon. Gentleman delivering it, I hope we shall have a very rapid change in his attitude as to finding a solution for the difficulties of this industry. As I have already pointed out, peace can be speedily obtained on conditions that no man can say are unjust or unfair. The miner is entitled to as fair treatment as any other section of the community. He is in revolt because he is not getting it. Immediately he gets it, he is prepared to return and give his contribution to the common weal. I hope the Government will speedily take the necessary steps to find a solution that will give fair treatment, and enable this essential industry once more to contribute towards the life, the well-being and the welfare of this nation.

As a Member representing a mining constituency, I want to ask the Committee to bear with me for a few moments while I try to give them my views about the present stoppage and the course that I think should be taken to bring this unhappy struggle to an end. Only a few days ago I was in my constituency, and had the privilege of talking to about 900 miners who were out of work; and I should like to bear my tribute to these men in this House to-night for the splendidly fair way in which they treated me when I went to speak to them, and particularly to the Miners Federation's own representative in that area, not only for his conduct on that occasion, but for all that he is doing, as I know, to keep the men in that area at peace, to keep them quiet and orderly. I was very greatly struck on that occasion by the evident desire of these men to get back to work if they could only get a lead, which they felt they were right in following, from those in whose hands these negotiations are placed.

Before offering to the Committee tonight my suggestion as to the settlement of this dispute, I would like to say that, as a plain business man, I view the position in this way: This is a dispute in a great industry and it can only be dealt with, I think, on commercial lines bearing in mind all the economic factors which have to be faced by both parties if a proper solution is to be found. The mines seem to me to divide themselves into three groups, those which have paid and are paying, those that do not quite pay but with better organisation and perhaps a little more intensive work could be made to pay, and lastly, those that are worn out, do not pay and probably never will pay. It seems to me, not looking at the thing from the point of view of a politician but through the eyes of a business man, that one has to recognise that those are, roughly speaking, the facts in regard to this industry, and if they are the facts surely it is not beyond the wit of man to arrive at a proper business settlement. No one knows better than I do that to close down immediately all the uneconomic pits would probably cause a great upheaval and great hardship to thousands of men and their families, but I have always thought that is the position which sooner or later has to be faced. I do not wish to be misunderstood on this point. I do not say it has to be faced by a ruthless disregard for those men who are thrown out of employment but I think it would be the duty of the Government under those circumstances to try to evolve some scheme which would lighten the load so far as those men are concerned.

I should like to say a word about the subsidy. I was very glad to hear from the hon. Member who has just sat down that no one connected with the Miners' Federation to-day claims that that subsidy should be continued indefinitely, and I hope that will go out from this House throughout the country as a pronouncement by a responsible representative of the Miners' Federation, because I believe it cannot be too widely known, and it is the duty of everyone of us who really wants to bring this dispute to an end to abandon at once and for ever any question of the renewal permanently of the subsidy that was granted last July. The Commission in their Report stated quite clearly that that subsidy could not be defended on any financial ground, if only because it operates unfairly as between industry and industry. The Commission pointed out that highly skilled men in the shipbuilding trade—shipwrights and fitters—receive wages of 56s. and 57s. a week.

I quite agree it is a shame, but it is a fact owing to the unfortunate position of the industry—and that those men would have just as much right to come to the Government and claim a subsidy for their industry as the mining or any other industry in the country, so we have to abandon finally and for ever the idea of any permanent subsidy for the mining industry.

What is going to be the end of this unfortunate dispute? I am certain we are all agreed upon one point. It is un- thinkable that the dispute should continue until the miners are exhausted and have to go back. That would certainly be as settlement which I should deplore. It is a settlement which has been shown in the past to be a fatal one; we should only be setting up trouble for ourselves in years to come. It would be an unjust thing, a wrong thing, and a stupid thing to leave the dispute to fight itself out by a process of exhaustion. I am sure we all realise what has been the lesson of the Great War. If it has taught us and all the peoples of the world any lesson at all, it is that any settlement of disputes between nations and nations, between peoples and peoples, between communities and communities, which is settled by the arbitrament of force only brings in its train misery, disaster, and poverty to all concerned. I am profoundly convinced that exactly the same position arises in regard to industrial disputes. If these things are to be left to settle themselves by a process of exhaustion and the stronger side winning, we are only setting up for ourselves disaster, and, above and beyond all else, that is not, and should not be, the British way of settling our disputes.

I do not want to be provocative and I hope I shall not say a single word which will irritate or anger any Member on the other side, but I have come to the conclusion that the position in the mining dispute to-day is caused by rank bad leadership on both sides. I say that quite deliberately. I am not attempting in any way to apportion the blame. The simple facts are these. Here are two bodies of men, the Mining Association and the Miners' Federation, who for weeks past have been endeavouring to settle this dispute, and they have failed hopelessly. My experience of business teaches me that if you want a matter settled by negotiation and your negotiators fail, it is high time to appoint new negotiators to take over the job, and the suggestion I want to throw out is this. Whether it is accepted or not, I feel profoundly convinced that ultimately it is going to be accepted by the effluxion of time. Scrap the leaders on both sides who have been conducting the negotiations.

There are Members on that side of the House, and I pay my tribute to them—I could name three or four, the right hon. Member for Ogmore (Mr. Hartshorn), who made such a magnificent speech today; the hon. Member for Morpeth (Mr. Smillie), whose last speech in the House of Commons I have not forgotten; the hon. Member for Mansfield (Mr. Varley), and the hon. Member for Wansbeck (Mr. Warne). Four men on that side of the House come to my mind immediately who are interested in mining who could, I am certain, if they got into a room with four moderate men representing the owners, find a way out of this impasse and bring us back to days of happiness and prosperity. Let us all, on both sides of the House, irrespective of party, scrap our political ideas on the subject of this dispute. Let us do our utmost to get fresh leaders on both sides to come together, and bring some happy settlement to this thing which is holding up not only the happiness of the miners and their wives—which, believe me, is very near to my own heart—but holding up and interfering with the happiness and welfare of tens of thousands of people who are dependent upon the mining industry for their happiness and prosperity.

A few months ago, I had the opportunity of thanking the Prime Minister for the action which he and the Government took in settling, for the time being, what threatened to be a very serious disturbance in the mining industry. He had declared that the Government were prepared to subsidise the industry in order to see whether or not it could be tided over what was believed to be a difficult time. I had no doubt then, and I have no doubt now, that the dispute in the mining industry would have led to a stoppage then, but for the action of the Government; but in thanking the Prime Minister I pointed out that the miners of Great Britain had not asked for a subsidy. I also reminded the Prime Minister and the House that if the miners had asked for a subsidy, and if the subsidy had gone on for many months, even for years, the nation would not have repaid the miners for the subsidy which they gave to the nation in 1916 and 1917 at a time when their wages were regulated by the selling price of coal, when 200,000 mine workers had joined the forces and were over on the other side, when the output of coal had gone down seriously, when the price was about to soar and the cost of living in every direction was rapidly going up.

It was the Miners' Federation that suggested that in the interests of the nation and in the interests especially of the coal consumers of the nation, the time had come when the Government should fix the price of coal, and not allow it to soar up, as it would have done, by £1, 30s. or £2 a ton. The Government took that advice. They fixed the price of coal so that it could not rise more than 4s. above the pre-War price, and for months it remained at that price. It would have soared up by 30s. or £2 a ton, but it remained at the price fixed by the Government, and in that way the mineowners and the miners gave a substantial subsidy to the Government and the nation. It would take the nation a considerable time to repay back in subsidy what the miners and the mineowners gave at that time. There have been less important industries in this country which have been deliberately subsidised by a vote in this House: industries that cannot be compared with the mining industry.

I deeply regretted to hear the speech of the Prime Minister to-night. It will not lend itself to bringing about an early peace in the mining industry. I thanked him some months ago for his action, and I am not going to withdraw anything I said at that time. I still believe that he is a very human person, a very kindly person, who would like to do the best for the mining industry, but I think that with him, surrounding him and about him are people who have forced him into the position which caused him to make his proposals to-night. I feel sure that his speech will not help us in coming to peace. The right hon. Member for Carmarthen (Sir A. Mond) referred to this dispute as a strike; but the Prime Minister very carefully spoke of it as a stoppage. That is the proper name for it; at any rate, it is a fairer name than that of a strike. It is not a strike. It is not a miners' strike. It is a lock-out. I want to call attention—I wish the Prime Minister were here—to the fact that the lock-out notices which were posted, giving the terms which the employers wished to impose upon the miners if they were to continue work, were most immoral. At the present time, a considerable number of citizens of this country are in prison charged with inciting persons to break the law, and Judges have commented very strongly upon the fact that they had incited people to break the law. The mineowners not only desired the miners to start work on a reduction of wages, but to start work on an eight-hours' day, although the law of this country down to the present time is a seven-hours' day. The miners have deliberately refused to break the law and work an eight-hours day. The mineowners have no more right to incite the miners to break the law than have other people to incite certain persons to break the law. It would be a breach of the law if the miners went back to an eight-hours' day, until this House decides that the law is to be altered.

There has been some talk about taking a secret ballot of the miners on this question. I would not care how the vote was taken. I would not care if the women folk were included with the men in the private vote. If it is right for anyone to talk about a secret vote of the miners being taken on the question, whether or not they will resume work at starvation wages, surely there can be no harm in asking whether a ballot vote of the shareholders in the mines could be taken on the question of the lock-out. The miners have just as much right as the mineowners to carry out their ballots without outside interference. I would like a vote at the present time, not a vote of the miners as to whether they would accept an eight-hours day or lower wages, but a vote of the nation. It is the duty of the Prime Minister and his Cabinet, before they take up the side of the mineowners and thrust the miners into subjection, to appeal to the country. The country's Government passed the seven hours law, and the country is entitled to say whether or not they feel that the miners' hours should be increased by a change of that law.

This discussion has turned largely on economics, and an appeal to the coal industry to pay a reasonably fair wage. I would like to turn to the human side. The miners' children, the miners' women folk and the miners cannot live merely on economics; they require food, clothing and shelter. The miners of this country are idle, because they refused to accept the terms posted in the mines by their em- ployers. Had they accepted those terms, it would have meant that in thousands and hundreds of thousands of cases the income would have been brought to such a a point that the mother could not provide the necessary sustenance for the children or the clothing to keep them decent. The miners are determined to make an attempt to receive such wages in return for an honest day's work—not for ca-canny or shirking; most of that comes either from the benches opposite or among the middle classes and other classes, and not among the miners—

I mean that the charges of ca-canny; the charges that the miners are ca-canny come, not from our own people but from wealthy people, from people who are said to be a class above ourselves. The miners are idle to-day because they felt, and they were right in feeling, that they were justified in refusing the terms. I am one of them. I live among them and have spent all my life with them. My own boys worked in the pit until this stoppage took place. I know the life of the miners from beginning to end. I know their conditions in the north of England and Scotland, and I feel sure that the same conditions apply in Wales and elsewhere. The reduction proposed is higher in Wales and the North of England and Scotland than in the other districts, and the wages proposed by the employers would not enable the homes of the miners to be kept as they ought to be. The wages of the miners have been compared with those of skilled engineers and other skilled workmen. Far be it from me to say that engineers, who are highly skilled and the finest workers in the world at their particular trade, should be working at 55s. a week, but if the reductions proposed took place, the miners would be working in many districts not for 55s. a week or 50s., or 45s. or 40s.; their wages would be down to 35s. per week. As far as the Scottish miners are concerned, when they have worked their full five days a week and the off-takes and insurance payments are considered, the woman at home would have 23s. per week in order to keep herself and her family, and there is no woman on God's earth who can keep a family on that amount.

I do not know whether the hon. Member heard the Prime Minister's speech.

Yes, I heard the Prime Minister's statement, but I happen to know more about the coal owners than the Prime Minister. I am dealing with a subject which I know—the Prime Minister, I know, would not wilfully say anything that would mislead this House. I am putting the human side of this problem before the House, because it will have to be settled ultimately by this House. It will not be settled if the miners are forced to resume work through the starvation of their children, nor do I think many hon. Members of this House would deliberately do anything which they believed was going to saddle the women folk of the miners with conditions which are impossible, if they are to live a decent life. All the religious bodies of this country have taken up the question of the social conditions of the people. The great Anglican Church met at Lambeth Palace three years ago, and among other matters of Church government they dealt, as every church ought to do, with social questions.

9.0 P.M.

I cannot divide social questions from Christianity. They dealt with the question of unemployment, the right of the worker to a voice in his own industry, and especially the question of the minimum wage on which they passed a resolution, which said that no industry ought to be carried on that did not provide a decent living wage for those employed in it; that a decent living wage must not be taken to mean a mere subsistence rate of wages, but it must ensure the wherewithal to provide a decent life and enable the mother to bring up her children in comfort and decency. No hon. Member of this House would say "No" to a resolution of that kind. The Anglican Church passed that resolution, and I want to ask this House whether they agree with it? I have here a quotation which proves to me that some mine owners do not agree with it. One of the leading mine owners of this country, a man with whom I have had more discussions on mining matters than any other man in the country, has dealt with what is called the living wage. This was the resolution passed by the Anglican Church at Lambeth in 1923: can do. The ordinary miner working at the coal face expends more energy in his six hours there than any ordinary tradesman or labourer expends in two or three shifts. He is faced from morning to night with the vision of death; the angel of death is always hovering near. He is always "in the trenches." There is a beautiful old Scotch song called "Caller Herrin." It is the song which the fishwives were supposed to sing when they went out to sell their herrings, "caller herrin" meaning fresh herring. One line runs:

I do not desire to go any further into that matter, except to say that the hours of the miners are long enough. They are working practically, if not quite, as long as any of our competitors on the other side. The right hon. Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Home) is not here. I should like to ask him where he got his authority for 5½ hours' work. A gentleman named Arnold Lupton has published that statement in a little rag called the "Individualist." He is taken as an authority on mining. He says that 5½ hours is the time that the miners are engaged. I would tell the right hon. Member for Hillhead that the statement is not true at all. There is another serious competitor coming into the coal trade of the world. That great nation, which is despised by some people, Russia, is becoming an important producer of coal. There are now about 386,000 mine workers in Russia. According to Sir Adam Nimmo we are to be brought down to the conditions that prevail elsewhere. We are entitled to claim that we should be brought up to the best conditions that prevail anywhere. The surface workers at the mines in Russia, according to the latest information issued by the Bureau, have a 46 hours' week, including meal times. The underground workers have a six hours' day. That is in a country which is struggling to get back, not to the condition they were in at one time, but back to a position of industrial comfort. The surface workers in Russia have a fortnight's holiday on full pay and the underground workers a month's holiday at full pay.

We are as much entitled to things of that kind as are the Russian miners. We are as good miners. I feel sure that hon. Gentlemen opposite are not likely to take an example from Russia, because they believe that Russia has gone wrong in its system of Government. But I believe that the British Government will finally have to settle this question. Personally I feel that it would be a much better settlement if made between the two parties, if we could meet and settle the question. But it must be remembered that we are told that we have no right to a voice in carrying on the industry. The mineowners say that they have invested their money, a little over £220,000,000, in the coal mines of the country, and that they and they alone are entitled to a voice in the management and conduct of the collieries. Our people, a million of them, men and boys have invested their lives in the coal mines, and I place the lives of a million human beings at a far higher level than the money of the mineowners. We are denied any voice in the matter as long as the mines remain in private hands.

We say that if the miners were consulted as partners in the concern they could give a great amount of information which would help to increase the output and help the industry. We have hundreds of thousands of men who hold first-class certificates and are working at the coal face—first-class certificates that would enable them to become managers, and certificates that have been gained by hard study at night after the day's work is done. But if any miner suggest any change for the improvement of the industry he is told, "Mind your own business." I ask this Committee to-night not to be too ready in changing the law on the question of hours. One man may take a horse to the water, but a considerable number of men may be required to make it drink when it gets there. You may scrap the seven-hour day and make it into an eight-hour day, but that does not mean that our men are going to go down and work longer hours. I pray and I hope that this dispute may be settled, not by the starvation of the bairns and the women folk, but by commonsense round a common table, either by the owners and the workmen themselves, or with the assistance of the good offices of the Prime Minister if he can give them. We all hope it will be settled at the earliest possible moment; but it cannot be settled if the result of the settlement is to mean reducing any further the standard of the life of our women folk and their children.

I am sure we must all be touched by and sympathise with the speech which we have just heard, and I only wish that the hon. Member who has just spoken were in charge of the negotiations on behalf of the miners instead of Mr. Smith and Mr. Cook. We should get much less of the "never, never" attitude. [ Interruption. ] If it were only a question of how much we in this House would like to give the miners, I am sure the question would be easily solved, but the hon. Member ignored the very large and more difficult question of where the money is to come from. If this were a self-supporting island, where we only traded among our own population, and had not to consider exports and imports and trade throughout the world, probably the question would not be as difficult as it is. But I am afraid, in the existing condition of affairs, it is impossible to consider the case of the miners apart from the general economic question. My constituents include a good many miners, and I have also a good many agricultural labourers. Now the agricultural labourer is a highly skilled man. How am I to tell the agricultural labourer that he is to work for much less than the miner; how am I to tell the agricultural labourer and his wife and family, that he will have to contribute to a subsidy to maintain the miner, and the miner's wife and children, though the miner is working shorter hours and getting higher pay? The hon. Member touched on the question of the hours of work, and said the owners had endeavoured to induce the miners to break the law by working eight hours a day. I am sure the hon. Member cannot have meant such a proposition seriously. He must know, with all his mining experience, that under the present Seven Hours Act there is a period of 60 days' grace during which eight hours a day may be worked. [HON. MEMBERS: "In an emergency!"] If the legislation which has been outlined is passed, as I hope it will be passed, it will release the industry from this seven-hour limit, and allow a greater elasticity in the matter of hours.

I had hoped to discuss some of the causes, both of the mining strike and the general strike, but I do not wish to interfere with the opportunities of other Members who wish to speak, and I will curtail my remarks. The root of the trouble in connection with the mines is the irresolute leadership of the Socialist party. The party opposite has some good men on the back benches, and some good men on the Front Bench, but there are far too many on the Front Bench who are swayed to and fro by the extremists and moderates alternately. You cannot lead a party like that. [ Interruption. ] It is a danger to the State that any party in the State should be ruled by men of the character of some of those at present sitting on the Front Opposition Bench. You do not want men who swing backwards and forwards constantly between revolution and constitutionalism, according to the views of different sections of the party behind them. To my mind, revolutionary propaganda in this country is the cause of much of our present distress. It is propaganda which has led to the continuance of the miners' strike. [HON. MEMBERS: "Lock-out!"] I will deal with that point presently.

I have here a paper called "Lansbury's Labour Weekly." That title is chosen I presume, as an advertisement for that great capitalist newspaper proprietor, the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury). It has a full page article by the hon. Member for East Middlesbrough (Miss Wilkinson) which under the heading of "Cheaper than Horseflesh" deals with the Somerset coalfield. That coalfield lies in the constituency which I have the honour to represent. The writer of the article refers to 4,700 miners being locked out. There are no miners locked out in the Somerset coalfield. The owners never gave notice of any change of wages. They put up notices at each of the pits that the miners could continue work on 1st May on the same terms as before, namely the terms of the 1924 Agreement. Later on in this article the hon. Member for East Middlesbrough herself admits that the mines are open to the men at the old rates. In that event, how can she justify calling it a "lock-out." In this article we find the following passage: Member for East Middlesbrough. She goes on: in Bristol, and she has every confidence in him. As a matter of fact no profit is allowed on these coal emergency orders; neither 5s. nor 5d. a ton. [An HON. MEMBER: "On whose authority is that?"] The Department of Mines. At any rate, if the hon. Member for East Middlesbrough had any evidence on this point she might have produced it. I should like to know what steps the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley took to check these statements in a paper which he distributes all over the country.

On a point of Order*! I would like to ask whether the hon. Gentleman has acquainted the hon. Member for East Middlesbrough that he was going to make this attack on her to-night?

Yes, of course, I have, and I have a letter from her saying she would come here if she could. I saw her in the House to-day, but she is very busy with a relief committee, and I am sorry she; is absent. I also notified the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley, and I am glad to see him present.

I am not going to ask to be allowed to make a speech, but I want to put two points. First, in regard to the photograph and the machine. A man came all the way from Somerset with the apparatus to show me how it was worked and brought a photograph from which the sketch was made. [ Laughter. ] Hon. Members may laugh. The point is that that apparatus is used and we were told it was used in that particular way. The photograph was brought from the coalfield.

I understand the hon. Gentleman rose to a point of order. If the hon. Member likes to deal with the case, the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley can make a statement. It is not a point of order.

The hon. Member I am sure, and I certainly do not want not to defend anything I have done at any time, but I want to say that a miner came from the Somerset coalfields. If I am challenged I will produce the man at the Bar of the House with the apparatus. The photograph was supplied to me by the same people and from it the print was made. That is the first thing. Then the hon. Member says, what steps did I take to check the accuracy of my hon. Friend's statement? I took no steps to check that, because I have perfect confidence in her bona fides.

I am afraid the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley is practically as gullible apparently as the hon. Member for East Middlesbrough. Both have been grossly deceived with regard to the Somerset coalfield. The point I want to make is this. This paper is circulating in other coalfields. The men are induced to stay on strike because of the terrible circumstances existing in Somerset. Similar propaganda from other coalfields is circulated in Somerset. Our Somerset men are not striking for themselves. They are striking from a feeling of loyalty to the other men. This sort of propaganda is being distributed from coalfield to coalfield so as to make each coalfield strike. I consider it a most disgraceful means of continuing the stoppage. The only result of this strike, when it does end, will be that the men will probably get a lower rate of wages than they did. The Radstock district in the Somerset coalfield is the only district which has drawn no subsidy whatever, yet we have no collieries there producing 200,000 tons a year. The Coal Commission have rather assumed that any colliery producing less than 200,000 tons a year was an uneconomic unit and should be closed down. I mentioned that because it shows that, without disturbing existing conditions, and without these amalgamations, and still more without nationalisation, a coalfield can be made to pay and to give regular and continuous employment. There is only one thing that could be done materially to improve things there, and that would be to have rather more flexible hours of work. I therefore welcome the declaration of the Prime Minister to-day that he is going to repeal the fixed limit of seven hours a day. If men want to work a bit longer for five days a week and go to see a football match on Saturday without losing a day's pay, why should they not do so? Why should we sit here and tell them it is wrong, and that they are not to do it? If a coal cutting machine is in difficult ground, and the shift cannot complete the work set out in the seven hours, why should they not stop a little bit longer and finish off the job?

I hope that the legislation promised to be introduced by the Government will produce a change of feeling throughout the country, because it has got to come. If the owners and the miners could only get together, and face what has to be faced some day, in a spirit of conciliation and mutual sacrifice, it would be not only of untold benefit to them, but of untold benefit to thousands and thousands throughout the country who are suffering to-day, through no fault of their own, but merely because a small handful of trade union leaders have chosen to take a "Never, never" attitude, backed up by a certain number of trade union leaders who promised to support them in a general strike, and who did not do so when the time came. I consider that those are the gentlemen who are to blame.

On a point of Order. I want to ask if it is not a fact that this system is not only—

A Motion for a reduction of the Vote has been moved from this side of the House, and I understand that it is thought desirable to conclude the Division which is to follow not later than eleven o'clock, in order that on the Adjournment Motion another subject should be discussed. I shall, therefore, conclude what I have to say within a time which will permit of that being done, at the same time leaving an ample margin for a reply on the Debate by the Government spokesman. I cannot, of course, take very serious notice of the observations of the hon. Member for the Frome division (Mr. G. Peto), who has just addressed the Committee, for obviously he is little acquainted with the causes which produce such conditions and consequences as we have been discussing here to-day. I regret that the hon. Lady the Member for East Middlesbrough (Miss Wilkinson) is not in her place, as I am certain the Committee would have been delighted and entertained to have heard her reply to the hon. Member.

I must express to the Minister of Labour, and through him, I trust, to the Prime Minister, a sense of the bitterest disappointment which I have ever felt in this House on listening to a speech which we thought would rise to the height of the occasion, and in which there would be found some definite proposals and plans for bringing this unhappy lock-out to a speedy termination, and we are entitled all the more, after the Prime Minister's speech to-day, to protest against the amazing mishandling of our greatest industrial problem on the part of the Government. I fear that we shall have to finish to-night with the sensation of having taken part in a quite fruitless Debate, so far as any earlier termination of the coal lock-out is concerned. Nay, I go further, and say that my fears are that peace has been further postponed by the pronouncement of the Prime Minister. I think, too, that he himself felt when he sat down, as well as feeling while he was making his speech, that what he had to say was wholly inadequate to the purpose, that what he had to say would meet only to some extent the desires and interests of one side in this dispute, and that nothing that he had to say could carry with it the approval of the million or so men who are directly affected by the stoppage.

I was not clear, indeed, following intently the substance of the Prime Minister's statement, whether in part he was making announcements to the Committee or submitting proposals to it. I understood him to say that, though he had not been personally in touch with the mine-owners' representatives, a number of his colleagues had, and that as a result of that contact he was able to place certain information before the Committee. One factor which very often prevents a settlement of these quarrels is the factor of suspicion, and if it be true that for the purpose of making that statement here to-day the Prime Minister's colleagues have been consulting only one party to the dispute, and have taken no steps to ascertain the views of the men upon these proposals, it is likely that the suspicion will be deepened when the newspapers are read to-morrow. The only good that I can see out of this Debate is a keener sense of conviction in the public mind that the nation can not much longer endure to leave this business of coal production and distribution to the coalowners.

For good or ill, over a period of many years, Governments have had to make themselves responsible in a special degree for taking some steps in respect to coal production and in respect to the quarrels that have arisen in the coal industry. Commissions, investigations, and all manners of quite unusual steps have had to be taken which have not been taken in the case of other industries, and repeatedly there has been intervention. In the case of the coal industry, years ago Parliament was compelled to take a step never taken in the case of any other, and the hours of labour had to be fixed. So bad were the conditions of the miners, in a social and a domestic sense, that some slight tax had to be put upon the coal in the hope of producing a fund that would make the miner's life a little more liveable and tolerable than it had been. A huge subsidy had to be provided last year as a device for averting a stoppage, but that stoppage was not prevented, mainly, I believe, because of the lack of foresight on the part of the Government in using the subsidy in the right way and in making at the time proper terms with the parties to the trouble. For these reasons, and because of the nation's interest in the coal supply, I repeat that the nation cannot continue to leave the supply of coal under the control of private owners.

I read in the "Times" this morning, in the leading article, a statement that the Government cannot give more money to this industry, but that it could contribute ideas and formulate plans for reorganisation. We listened in vain for ideas. We shall read to-morrow again to see if we were wrong, and I am certain that the conclusion will be that plans for reorganisation have not been formulated. Indeed, the hon. Members who listened to the Prime Minister's speech will recall that he spent a very large, an unduly large part of that speech, as I thought, in under-rating the value of reorganisation, in producing a feeling among us, or trying to produce a feeling, that we could over-value the proposals for reorganisation. That, clearly, is not the opinion of those gentlemen who were brought together by the Government to constitute the Coal Commission, for the outstanding feature of their Report is re-organisation, co-ordination, amalgamation. They indicate that, if there is to be any reduction in wages in the case of the lower-paid men, such reductions should come only after all those other steps of reorganisation and amalgamation have been taken. So I think the Prime Minister is not at all doing justice to the work of the Commissioners appointed by his Government. Those who listened to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Ogmore Division (Mr. Hartshorn) will not deny him the compliment of having made one of the most effective speeches on this problem that the House has ever listened to. The case he argued and the figures he adduced proved that the underlying trouble of this industry never can be removed until either the nation itself takes over the coal industry or some trust, answering to the same plan, is established in that industry so as to merge or lessen the losses accruing from the immense differences in the cost and the differences in so many other directions of working in the mines. In short, my right hon. Friend proved that unification and merging are essential if this industry is to be carried on in the future successfully.

We are not, on this side of the House, calling upon the Government indefinitely and for ever to put, as it were, some prop under the trade to maintain it; but, clearly, a stage has been reached where a subsidy for an agreed period has become an inseparable feature of the reorganisation schemes if those schemes are to be made effective. Nor do we find in the Report of the Commission any argument whatever in support of the Prime Minister's proposal to-day with regard to longer working hours. The Report says, on page 234, "The average 7½ hours underground should remain unaltered." Yet, in defiance of a conclusion so clearly stated, the only definite proposal the Prime Minister could make this afternoon was the legislative lengthening of the hours of the miners. The case for putting reorganisation against any other line of advance was set forth clearly in the letter referred to by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Home), which appeared in the "Times," and which was written by Mr. Cook some few days ago. As this may be taken as the authoritative view of the miners on this question of reorganisation, it is worth while to bring it once more to the notice of the House. The letter says:

We have had to-day proofs that this industry, troubled as it has been, has afforded abundant returns to those who have had capital invested in it. A wealth of figures was produced as to the profits in the coal industry spread over a number of years. I would repeat, in view of what was said by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillhead, that the only people in this industry who have made sacrifices for it have been the miners themselves. The right hon. Gentleman appealed to the miners to help the country through. Recall their heavy sacrifices already—the nature of their work, in death and in injury day by day. I have once before reminded the House of how the miners were cheered when the nation wanted men to save them. Indeed, as is known, so many of them left the coalfield for the battlefield that they had to be brought back again to get coal because of the shortage. Great patriots they were then, and their country, they were assured, would see them through when they returned. But they have received nothing but insults and reductions of wages. And this appeal for further sacrifices from the miners is made at Westminster in Ascot week; made in a period when, as we were told in the papers day by day, London is enjoying the most brilliant and opulent season which has ever fallen to it. We cannot shut our eyes to these things. It is no use saying that that has nothing to do with it; it has everything to do with it. We cannot go on tolerating this show of increasing extravagance on the part of the undeserving rich and at the same time calling upon the poor colliers to make still further sacrifices in the interests of the nation. What now appears to be quite clear is that this dispute is going to last even longer than it has already lasted. That is not our wish. We want to live a life of some ease, if we can get it, and we should be glad to see a just and rapid termination of this trouble. Many of us did our best to prevent it, and we shall be glad to take a hand in any just means to bring it to an end, but frankly, with all the will in the world to do justice to the Government, I can see not the slightest hope of a contribution to an early end of this trouble in the proposals which have been outlined to-day. So we are in for a long lock-out.

A strike is often denounced, especially if it be a big strike, as tending to interfere with the necessaries of life. What is the intention behind the lock-out? It is to starve into submission, or so to restrict the supplies of food—

The hon. and gallant Gentleman has not listened to what I said. I said a general strike is denounced because it interferes with the necessities of life. Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman join with me in denouncing the lock-out?

The lock-out interferes with the daily necessities of the miners, and is designed to starve them into submission in the end. The object of every lock-out is to inflict such conditions of starvation upon those who are locked out as to compel them to surrender to such terms as the employers may intend to impose. I, therefore, say of the schemes revealed here to-day, that they appear to me to gather together all the worst features of the most objectionable proposals that have been made from any quarter in relation to this trouble, and I would implore the Prime Minister to count the cost involved in his plans and to reconsider whether some better method cannot soon be provided of terminating this quarrel. Though he is absent, I would draw the attention of the House to his explicit assurance made, I suppose not only for himself as Prime Minister, but on behalf of the Government, some days before the strike was called off. On 8th May the Prime Minister made this declaration to the miners and to the workers in all other industries:

"I wish to make it as clear as I can that the Government is not fighting to lower the standard of living of the miners or of any other section of the workers."

Involved in the Prime Minister's scheme are wage reductions and the lengthening of the hours of labour. If longer hours and lower wages are not to add to the burdens of working-class life, and if they are not in any sense to cause a reduction in the standard of living, what are they for? I say to the Prime Minister that he is not keeping his word; that the events of recent days, and particularly his speech of this afternoon, will tend enormously to lessen in working-class circles faith in the word of a man whose word they formerly trusted.

We are all agreed upon one thing to-day, and that is the gravity of the situation which the country has to face. We may differ as to how it should be faced, but on the gravity of it there are no two opinions in this House. Therefore I hope hon. Members opposite will let me deal as clearly as I can, and I wish to be as non-controversial as possible, both with the proposals of the Government and also with the criticisms passed upon us for not bringing proposals forward before. Let me deal first with the criticisms made from the Liberal Benches by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon). He gave a sort of bleak breath of approval to the proposals of the Government to deal with reorganisation, but, he asked why had we not brought them forward at an earlier date. I will tell the Committee why we did not bring them forward earlier, and why we have brought them forward now. We wanted to get an agreement with the parties on both sides of the industry to the type of measures for reorganisation that should be brought in. We wanted to do that during the negotiations before ever the strike began; when the General Strike was over, we tried to do so again by bringing before the notice of both sides the headings of the proposals which we thought they might consider with us. I am sure the Committee will realise that it would be infinitely better if we could get the two sides to join with us in considering proposals and agreeing on them than to leave it to the Government to bring them forward without a previous agreement with the two parties. That is the reason why we have waited and why we have brought them in to-day. The last quarter from which I should expect to hear that type of criticism is the Liberal benches, and on the authority of Lord Oxford. T have every respect for Lord Oxford, but I am bound to say that when I hear that old phrase of "Wait and see," which is inseparably connected with his name—[HON. MEMBERS: "Bring us up to date."]

Will the right hon. Gentleman allow me to intervene for a moment? He has deliberately brought into this controversy a phrase which, I believe, arose or was first used in 1912, 14 years ago. Will he now tell us. [HON. MEMBERS: "Is this a point of Order?"] It is not a point of Order. It is not meant to be. The right hon. Gentleman has given way to me. Will the right hon. Gentleman please tell the Committee the occasion and the purpose when that phrase was used?

We have been criticised from the Liberal benches for not bringing forward these proposals earlier. I say there is a perfectly valid reason, which I have already explained, why those benches are the very last from which that complaint should come. [ Interruption. ] The reason why we have not done so till to-day is that we wanted to get an agreement between the parties, and as we could not get an agreement between the parties the Government have brought forward their Measures themselves. Our policy is one of three parts. In the first place the Prime Minister has endeavoured to bring forward proposals in regard to the reorganisation of the industry. In the second place, he has not done as I imagine it was thought by some who are present this afternoon he would do when these proposals were put forward. What my right hon. Friend has done—I will explain it later—is that he has endeavoured, and endeavoured with success, again to get a further and more favourable offer from the mineowners as a contribution towards the negotiations. Thirdly, a part of what he has brought forward is a proposal for temporarily lengthening the hours of work. It is a threefold policy, and it stands together, and I hope to deal with it before I sit down.

I am sure the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ogmore (Mr. Hartshorn), who spoke first for the Opposition to-day, will be the first to realise that we have all got to try to deal with this question as seriously as we can. It is no good in a crisis like this trying to conceal any of the facts, so far as one sees them. Rather should we put them forward, perfectly frankly, and with perfect sincerity. It is from that point of view that I have genuinely tried to face crises like this, and I do again appeal to hon. Members opposite, and to the whole of the Committee, to look the facts in the face as the Prime Minister asked the Committee to do this afternoon. I have got here a table which was given in an answer to an hon. Member of the House, and from which the Prime Minister this afternoon quoted one figure. The table shows the actual state of the industry. That is the basic fact to which we have to go. If we want really to try to deal with a crisis of this kind we must look the facts clearly in the face without passion and without distortion.

When I look at the situation as disclosed in the table, I can hardly imagine anybody being faced with a situation more full of danger and trouble, and with more difficulties for the future than are disclosed by these figures. I do not wish to load what I have to say with figures, but I would ask anybody who thinks of the dangerous state of the industry to realise that based on the last quarter far last year, even supposing—and let no one imagine I am suggesting an actual basis for wages, and I say that by way of caveat so that no one may misrepresent me; I am not suggesting there should be such minimum rates—but even if the minimum, rates were not 33⅓ or 20 per cent, over the standard as in the 1921 settlement. [ Interruption. ] I am not suggesting it for a moment. [ Interruption. ]

May I ask hon. Members on both sides of the Committee for a moment to try to let me put the figures forward, because it is really so vital a matter to us? Supposing, as I say—and I would be the last to suggest that wages should be right back at the minimum—but on that hypothesis, then 40 per cent, of the actual tonnage produced in Durham would be produced at a loss, and over 50 per cent, of the tonnage in Northumberland. And further not a single ton, as the Prime Minister said, would be produced at a profit if wages were at the rate they were before the recent dispute began. What I would wish to put before right hon. Gentlemen opposite is this: Supposing that wages were right back at the standard which no one wishes to see or to suggest, it means that in the one case of a big district more than half and in another district nearly half of the whole tonnage was being produced at a loss. Does not that mean that the situation of the whole industry is an extremely parlous one? Those are the facts, and I can only ask hon. Gentlemen to study this table in itself, for it shows the desperate position as based upon the December quarter.

Since the December quarter, on which the Commission largely base their findings, what has happened? Prices have not improved. They have got worse. The situation, which the Commission in their Report hoped would have taken a turn for the better, has not yet taken a turn for the better. It has at the present time taken a turn for the worse, and so far as anyone can humanly see from what is going on abroad at this moment it does not look likely that there will be a turn for the better, at any rate in the immediate future. The contracts that we know have been placed by collieries in the Ruhr by some countries, and in Upper Silesia by other countries, show that there is no trend of prices which makes it possible that the position of the industry will be better in the immediate future. I put it to everyone that that is the situation which really has got to be faced. It is no good for any of us to try to bring forward any sort of specific, or any sort of remedy, which we do not, in our minds and hearts, really believe meets the situation that has to be met.

Now may I deal with some of the very interesting speeches which have been made, and with some of the suggestions in those speeches. I take, first, the suggestion made in the very interesting speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ogmore. That right hon. Gentleman laid stress on the question of amalgamation. I am not sure whether he really thinks that the whole situation can be met by that method. I do assure him that it is perfectly impossible. The Report of the Commission has been quoted freely in criticism of the Government in regard to the eight hours' day. I wonder whether all those who quoted the Report in criticism of the Government in regard to the eight hours' day are ready to pay the same attention and homage to the Report in regard to the other considerations and arguments into which it goes minutely.

If they do so with regard to amalgamation, what will they find? The right hon. Gentleman based the whole of his case on the fact that if you take the industry as a whole there was a loss—I think I am right in speaking from memory—of 3d. a ton, whereas in fact, while the average was 3d. a ton, yet there were large numbers of pits making losses varying from 5s. to 6s. per ton, while others were making profits varying from 6s. to 7s. per ton. He based his case on these averages. On this basis of averages, he suggested that the State should then insist on the mines amalgamating. But if he looks carefully at the Report where it deals with the question of amalgamation, he will find that both the reasons on which he based his recommendations were considered by the authors of the Report, and they discarded both as not being sound. He will find the question of the average considered, and also the case of the State taking action to force amalgamation. He will find that they practically rejected the latter as well as the former.

I myself agree with the recommendation of the Report that amalgamations are desirable, and in the proposals which have been outlined by the Prime Minister we are doing our best to promote that by taking away the remaining difficulties which might lie in the way of companies amalgamating. We are trying to facilitate amalgamation by private enterprise. That is a very different thing from the State forcing amalgamation on the companies. It is quite a different thing to encourage private enterprise to make the amalgamations and to put an official strait-waistcoat on the industry in that respect. There is an essential difference between amalgamation accomplished in that way and amalgamation done on the initiative of private companies. If the State tried to force amalgamation, it would be doing so Without a proper knowledge of the conditions as compared with that possessed by private individuals who, I think, will be able to find a way out of the difficulty. I agree entirely with the Report in that respect and I disagree with what was said on this point by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ogmore.

Why does the right hon. Gentleman confine himself to reorganisation, which is only one aspect of the problem? There is the industrial aspect, the commercial aspect, and the distributive and transport aspects, and if he will consider those there is real ground on which something can be done.

Having dealt with amalgamation, the next note I have is to deal with the commercial aspect. I think everyone will agree that about the most interesting speech we have listened to this afternoon was that made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carmarthen (Sir A. Mond) on the question of selling syndicates. On this point, let me say that with regard to selling syndicates the Government also propose to go forward. We propose to set up a Committee to go into the question of selling syndicates, in order to see what can be done to gain any advantages that may be obtainable from them. As regards this being an immediate solution of the problem, the right hon. Gentleman spoke of selling syndicates with the enthusiasm of a parent for his offspring. I know the right hon. Gentleman has had experience of them in one line of business, and so have I. I myself formed a selling syndicate once during a brief absence from active work in this House. That syndicate did not deal with coal but with other mining products. I formed it, and it worked well for some years. I can also say from my own experience that the difficulty in forming selling syndicates and the time taken in their formation are far beyond the sanguine expectations of most people who imagine they can be pushed through in a couple of months.

That was my own experience, and I can give one or two of the points in which we found infinite trouble. The right hon. Gentleman gave me the opportunity of having a conversation with the two representatives of the Westphalian Syndicate who came over here. I had a talk with them, and went into the points with them. I asked them whether they found the same kind of difficulties that I found in arranging quotas for different mines, and they said that that was exactly one of the points in which they found their greatest difficulty. It does not altogether kill the pits that ought to be dead, but from many points of view it keeps them alive artificially. That is what I found, and that is what they found. To arrange quotas is an amazingly difficult process. You try to arrange quotas for all the different pits, and get them all to try to estimate what quota they ought to have. That takes a considerable time. What is more, when you have finished, unless you get every single pit in that can ever put its coal on the seaboard, you find, when you are trying to get a rather better price for your export coal, that in comes a pit from some quarter that you never imagined, and you have to re-arrange the whole business. Let me take another practical difficulty—

I am dealing with this. The position in this country, let me say at once, is infinitely more complicated and difficult than ever it was in Germany. In Germany there was a natural monopoly in internal trade for the Ruhr over a large district, which is not the case in this country, and that makes a vast difference. The right hon. Gentleman talks about district associations only being formed, but a system like this cannot work until you have got a ring that covers the whole of the coal-pits of the whole country. It may be said that, in a situation of that kind, you may so regulate prices that they shall not be put up unduly. I put it to any Member of the House that, while you may get into a ring like that with every determination to get prices controlled, it is an amazingly difficult thing so to regulate prices that they shall not be put up in such a way as to be burdensome to the home industries. The Rhenish-Westphalian Syndicate has had some bitter complaints made against it in Germany.

Then I would point out that in this country you have two points which single it out and make this object more difficult of achievement than ever it was in the Ruhr. You have a far greater number of pits to start with, and a far bigger production; and the larger the number of pits to be brought in, the greater the difficulty of forming such a selling association. The difficulty increases geometrically. In the next place, in this country of all countries it is vital that there should be no danger of enhancing the price of coal to the other great internal industries of the country—iron, steel, shipbuilding, and others which depend on supplies of coal at a moderate price for their very life. It is for these reasons that I say that, for an immediate solution of this difficulty, you cannot look to a selling syndicate. You can go into it and try and see, in the first place, if it is possible to form it under the complexities here, and, if you can form it, whether it can be so regulated as not to be a menace to the rest of industry here. As I have said, we propose to go ahead and see, but, it would be foolish to imagine that you can get a means of meeting the situation which I put before the Committee at the start and which we have to face here and I will take one more instance, namely, the point raised by the hon. Member for Broxstowe (Mr. Spencer) when he intervened just now—the question of general mining efficiency. I think it was the hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) who described the extra production which could be brought about if there were sufficient tubs and all the other machinery inside the mines was up-to-date. In passing, may I add, in explanation of a remark addressed to the Prime Minister, that it was with regard to such mining management that he made that quotation from the Report. I would say again to the hon. Member that the Report itself tells us that the effect on the industry as a whole of matters of that kind is quite minute.

My reason for making the particular reference to that was that I was working in the pit a very short time ago and I know the practical conditions.

Do not let the hon. Member think I am not wanting to make every improvement that is possible, but he will realise, as well as I do, that if you are considering the whole mining situation you have, if any one point is adduced, to see how much it is of value in dealing with the situation of the industry as a whole, and in comparison, as a cure for the industry as a whole, this point is, as he knows, a small matter. I am the last person to deny that there ought to be improvement, but if there is anyone in the Committee who imagines for a moment that the gap can be met by curing inefficiency of that kind in the mining industry, I think he is leaning on a broken reed. I do not believe in the inefficiency of the British mining industry. Let me give one proof, if one is needed. I am not passing any judgment or opinion on the rate of wages. The average wage for a British hewer in a big coalfield runs from 13s. to 14s. a shift, and the average wage for a German hewer in the Ruhr—I have here the latest official figures of the rates of wages in the Ruhr—is from 8 to 8½ marks per shift. In Silesia the rate is lower.

I should be prepared to deal with that, but my point at the moment is the effect on the selling price of the coal. I put it to every Member of the Committee, if, under these differing conditions of cost the British industry can stand up at all in competition with these different rates of pay, it is at least a proof that you cannot accuse the British industry of being grossly inefficient.

Does not the British coal sell at a higher price? These differences in cost always existed in pre-War days, and were met by selling British coal at a higher price than German coal.

I should like to have a talk with the hon. Member afterwards about that. Some British coal fetches a higher price. There, are ail sorts of different values of coal, and allowing, as I would do at once, something for what he says generally, it is nothing compared with the difference between 8 marks and 13s.

Let me repeat quite clearly that we are going ahead with the question of reorganisation, as outlined this afternoon. I think the right hon. Member for Platting (Mr. Clynes) has done the Prime Minister less than justice in saying that he has made no proposals. I do not want to be provocative in retorting to him, that there are very few constructive proposals or help that we have had from the right hon. Gentleman. As the right hon. and learned Member for Spen Valley is now in his place, I will answer one point which he put. He spoke at some length on the question of family allowances. I think I was one of the earliest supporters of the family allowance system. In many ways it would be very beneficial, but it seems to me that in the coal industry it is peculiarly a system which ought not to be imposed, and that there ought to be no attempt to impose it on the workmen in the industry unless they wish to have it and are agreeable to have their wages varied so as to admit of it. If the right hon. Gentleman was listening carefully he would find that that was one of the points which we propose to have gone into. I have given my own opinion on the matter; but I say quite frankly that while I would do my best to get it favourably considered, the ultimate decision ought to lie with the people to whom it will make a difference one way or the other.

I have dealt with the proposals for reorganisation. I think that what can be expected from them is greatly exaggerated. I will give one decisive reason for saying that they cannot meet the present situation, and that is that they take months or years to bring into operation. The right hon. Gentleman said that the Report said that it was only when these reforms had been brought into operation that any adjustment of wages ought to be asked for. Let the right hon. Gentleman read the Report, and he will find that that is the opposite to what the Report says.

As the right hon. Gentleman indicates his dissent, let me make it quite clear. It is important. This is the sentence which has been so often quoted. It is on page 229:

"Before any sacrifices are asked from those engaged in the industry, it should be definitely agreed between them that all practicable means for improving its organisation and increasing its efficiency should be adopted as speedily as the circumstances in each case allow."

If that means anything it means that the parties should agree to go forward with organisation. We have been wanting to go ahead with re-organisation. As I stated in a previous Debate, we went to the miners and we said to them, "Will you go forward with re-organisation? The Report says that meanwhile, when you have agreed to go forward, but before re-organisation can bear its fruit, there must be some adjustment of wages to meet the situation. "That is quite clearly what the Report says in the section I have quoted. What is more, it is made additionally clear by what comes on page 235 of the Report:

"To bring any of these measures of re-organisation into effect must mean a period of months; to bring all of them into full operation must mean years.… Meantime the hard economic conditions of the moment remain to be faced."

The Report goes on to say:

"The dominant fact is that in the last quarter of 1925, if the subsidy be excluded, 73 per cent. of the coal was produced at a loss."

It is quite clear what is the recommendation of the Coal Commission.

I do not accept the right hon. Gentleman's version of the meaning of the Report, but may I ask him if there is any part of the Report he can quote in support of the Prime Minister's proposals to increase the working hours?

Yes, and I will deal with that in a moment. I challenge anyone to read these two pages in the Report and if they are sincere to come to any other conclusion. The facts have to be faced, and contentions and controversies apart, I would implore the Committee in view of the gravity of the situation really to face the facts. The Report perfectly distinctly says that they must be faced by some adjustment of wages. That is what has been urged on the miners by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition.

Well, we have it from Mr. Cook that that has been urged upon him. The only reason for doing so is because it is realised that in no other way, however reluctantly, can you face the situation at this moment. That is the gist of the whole business. I am coming to the question of the eight-hour day, and I ask the Committee to consider the situation under which it is proposed. We have talked to the miners as well as to the coalowners. At no time have we had any offer from the miners or any advance from them and hon. Members who quote from the Report and criticise the Government must remember that the really outstanding feature of the Report is the most unpleasant conclusion at which it arrived, that there must be some adjustment in wages to meet the situation whether we like it or not. We have made requests and we have had further offers from the mineowners, but we have never had a single response from the Miners' Federation, not one from beginning to end. As a result we have been faced as a Government with a situation which is entirely different from any which the authors of the Report ever contemplated. They thought the two sides would be willing to confer together and try to meet each other in order to face the situation. I ask the Committee to realise this. Let me quote the Report frankly and in all its completeness on the eight-hours day. I do not want to burke a single sentence. They say:

"In conclusion, while we do not recommend the State, of its own motion, to make any change of working hours or to endeavour to force upon the miners a longer working day than at present, this does not mean that if both employers and workmen were agreed in proposing a change, the State should refuse to accede to their joint request. It is at least possible, though, we hope, not probable, that the amount of wage reduction or the alternative of unemployment that will be imposed upon the industry if it is to continue with the present hours, may be such as to lead the miners to consider whether they should not escape from these troubles by some extension of working hours."

The passage ends:

"If the Miners' Federation came forward with such a request, it would be difficult to argue that the State should refuse it."

We have waited, we have tried to get the two sides to bring forward proposals and to make offers. We have waited and met with no response of any sort from the miners. What is more, we are placed in a different position from that which was contemplated. We have reached a situation, as anyone must see from reading the actual figures of the industry as shown in the table from which I quoted, which is exactly that referred to in the sentence quoted above as to an extension of working hours. In these circumstances, so different from what the Report could have contemplated from the Miners' Federation, the only thing that we can decently do is to unbar the door, so that at least there may be freedom to negotiate on that as on any other basis.

Would the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to tell the House exactly what the Chairman of the Commission said with regard to the possibility of throwing a number of people out of work in case an eight-hours' day was agreed to?

The hon. Member is anticipating what I was about to say. First of all, let me say clearly, as regards what the Prime Minister said this afternoon, that what he put forward was not his offer; it was an amended offer and a more favourable offer which he had obtained from the owners. We do not take the responsibility for it or endorse it. But again I ask Members to look at the facts, to look at the situation in Northumberland and Durham and to see what a stretch—I am bound to say this in fairness to the owners—they have made to try to meet the situation on that basis. I am no apologist for them, but I do want to be fair, and I think that the owners, particularly in Northumberland and Durham, have gone a very long way and are running very great risks at this moment, as is shown by the facts of the industry itself. Let me guard once again against the confusion that is made. It always seems to be thought that minimum rates represent the wages actually earned. They do not necessarily represent any such thing, as every miner knows but as the general public do not know—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"]—and the confusion sometimes extends to mining Members also. It has been said in this Debate that to propose a 10 per cent. reduction in a colliery making 7s. a ton profit would be ridiculous. That implies that it would be a 10 per cent, reduction in wages earned. Obviously, it would be nothing of the kind. Even hon. Members who know nothing of the mining industry but are now beginning to know something, are aware that the minimum rate is one thing. It is only the rate below which wages cannot go.

If the proceeds are above that amount, then there is a division of the proceeds in the proportion of 87 to 13.

Is it not a fact that in several of the coalfields, where they are getting 7s. a ton profit to-day, or were getting it in the six months to which I referred, workmen are still on the minimum, and if there were a reduction from 33⅓ per cent. to 20 per cent, which would be 10 per cent, on all their wages they would suffer that reduction although there was a profit of 7s. a ton?

In some cases you may get that type of thing. It means also that if there is a colliery making those profits in a district which is on the minimum, there are other collieries making losses. If you get a demand for a national minimum rate, that national minimum rate has to be based on a rate that the poorest districts of the big districts like Northumberland and Durham could possibly pay. To pay it they would have to put a large percentage of their mines out of operation. That does not mean that in other districts which can afford it better, such as the Eastern area, there should not be higher district rates offered and higher wages paid.

On the eight-hour day, the last point with which I am asked to deal is in regard to the men who would be put out of employment. It is said that we would get too much production under the eight-hour day; that there would be 30,000,000 tons more coal produced than would be otherwise. If the minimum were higher than the industry could pay, what would be the tonnage produced otherwise? I think it is very doubtful how many million tons could be produced. Take the case of 130,000 men who, it is said, would be unemployed. An hon. Member has asked what do I make of that statement of the Chairman of the Commission. I make this of it. Any argument based on too much production being undesirable, tells equally against any of the mining improvements which any of the hon. Members opposite wish to introduce. Every mining improvement is expressed in terms of increased production per man shift.

As against continuing as at present, what are the alternatives? The suggested prospect of 130,000 men out on the one hand and, on the other, as was said to us by the miners leaders when we ourselves were negotiating, the probability of over 60,000 men out in Northumberland alone if existing conditions continue and the possibility, as I gathered, might be contemplated of half a million out in the coalfield generally. If I had to choose between those two alternatives I would choose that which gave the lesser number of men out with the larger production. I have been driven reluctantly to the conclusion that this would be the sounder solution. I believe it would put the industry on a sounder economic basis. The cheapening of cost is so great that it means for the miners the possibility of a much larger wage than the industry could possibly otherwise stand. That is the reason why I have been reluctantly driven to believe in it. I believe it is infinitely better for the miners themselves. I believe there will be fewer men out than there would be if a demand were made to try to stereotype present conditions.

I am quite sure of the result from the point of view of the country as a whole. If you got a cheapening and economy in the production of coal, coupled with better wages, then I say from the point of view of the country as a whole there is no question of its benefits to every industry. An economy of 2s. a ton, which the extra length of time may make in the production of coal, may make all the difference to other industries. Anyone in the iron and steel industry knows you may use in the best possible practice between two and two and a quarter tons of coal to the ton of steel, or it may be three tons on the average. That means that when it comes to the finished product you have put on or taken off as the case may be a difference of 6s. to 7s. a ton. I ask everybody in the Committee to think of the industries that have been so prominent in my mind for the last 18 months, the iron and steel and the shipbuilding industries that have had one-third of the whole of their men out of work and have been finding competition difficult. Surely, if it be possible, one ought to think of the rest of British industry as a whole. That is the reason why, to my mind and in my own considered conviction, the policy that the Government have laid before the house to-day is a threefold policy; an improved offer from the owners: a decision to go forward both by legislation and administration with reorganisation and a decision to unlock the door that allows for free negotiations. We believe it is a proposal which can be accepted and which would be better—[HON. MEMBERS: "Starve the miners!"]—for every part of the country, and for this reason we believe that that three-fold policy will commend itself to everyone who truly analyses the situation. I only conclude as I begun. In this crisis I do most genuinely ask every Member of the Committee to get down to these facts, unpalatable as they are—and lace them sincerely.

I do not think hon. Members can do any good to anybody by interrupting.

The hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft) has only five minutes in which to speak.

Was there not an arrangement that a Division

should be taken at a quarter to eleven this evening?

The speeches have been very long, and I think the hon. And gallant Member should be given a hearing.

I hope the country will note this kind of conduct.[ Interruption. ]

Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £117,030, be granted for the said Service."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 138; Noes,299.

Division No. 282.]

AYES.

[11 0 p.m.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Ammon, Charles George

Hamilton, sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

Shiels, Dr. Drummond

Attlee, Clement Richard

Hardle, George D.

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Harris, Percy A.

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

Barnes, A.

Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

Sitch, Charles H.

Barr, J.

Hayday, Arthur

Siesser, Sir Henry H.

Batey, Joseph

Hayes, John Henry

Smillie, Robert

Beckett, John (Gateshead)

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Snell, Harry

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Hirst, G. H.

Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

Broad, F. A.

Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)

Bromfield, William

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

Bromley, J.

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Stamford, T. W.

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

Stephen, Campbell

Buchanan, G.

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Sullivan, J.

Cape, Thomas

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Sutton, J. E.

Charieton, H. C.

Kelly, W. T.

Taylor, R. A.

Clowes, S.

Kennedy, T.

Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

Cluse, W. S.

Kirkwood, D.

Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Lansbury, George

Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.)

Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

Lawrence, Susan

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton), E.)

Compton, Joseph

Lee, F.

Thurtle, E.

Connolly, M.

Lowth, T.

Tinker, John Joseph

Crawfurd, H. E.

Lunn, William

Townend, A. E.

Dalton, Hugh

Mac Donald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

Mackinder, W.

Varley, Frank B.

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

Viant, S. P.

Day, Colonel Harry

MacNeill-Weir, L.

Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

Duncan, C.

March, S.

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermilne)

Dunnico, H.

Montague, Frederick

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Fenby, T. D.

Morris, R. H.

Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

Gardner, J. P.

Naylor, T. E.

Welsh, J. C.

Gibbins, Joseph

Oliver, George Haroid

Westwood, J.

Gillett, George M.

Owen, Major G.

Whiteley, W.

Gosling, Harry

Palin, John Henry

Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

Paling, W.

Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm (Edin., Cent.)

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)

Greenall, T.

Ponsonby, Arthur

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Potts, John S.

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Purceil, A. A.

Wright, W.

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Groves, T.

Riley, Ben

Grundy, T. W.

Scrymgeour, E.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. ——

Guest, Haden (Southwark, N.)

Scurr, John

Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Charles Edwards.

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Sexton, James

NOES.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Applin, colonel R. V. K.

Barnett, Major Sir Richard

Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

Barnston, Major Sir Harry

Ainsworth, Major Charles

Astor, Maj. Hon. John J. (Kent, Dover)

Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

Albery, Irving James

Atkinson, C.

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Bennett, A. J.

Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Betterton, Henry B.

Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

Banks, Reginald Mitchell

Birchall, Major J. Dearman

Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

Gault Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

Malone, Major P. B.

Blundell, F. N.

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

Boothby, R. J. G.

Goff, Sir Park

Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Gower, Sir Robert

Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K.

Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

Grace, John

Meller, R. J.

Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

Grant, J. A.

Merriman, F. B.

Braithwaite, A. N.

Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

Brass, Captain W.

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

Briggs, J. Harold

Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

Briscoe, Richard George

Gretton, Colonel John

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Brittain, Sir Harry

Grotrian, H. Brent

Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N.)

Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. H. (Ayr)

Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

Gunston, Captain D. W.

Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C, (Berks, Newb'y)

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

Murchlson, C. K.

Bullock, Captain M.

Hammersley, S. S.

Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph

Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan

Hanbury, C.

Nelson, Sir Frank

Burman, J. B.

Harmon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Neville, R. J.

Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.

Harland, A.

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

Butt, Sir Alfred

Harrison, G. J. C.

Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G.(Ptrsf'ld.)

Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

Hartington, Marquess of

Nuttall, Ellis

Campbell, E. T.

Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

Cassels, J. D.

Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

Oman, Sir Charles William C.

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Hawke, John Anthony

Penny, Frederick George

Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

Perring, Sir William George

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

Henn, Sir Sydney H.

Philipson, Mabel

Charteris, Brigadier-General J.

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Plelou, D. P.

Christie, J. A.

Herbert, S. (York, N.R., Scar. & Wh'by)

Power, Sir John Cecil

Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

Hills, Major John Waller

Preston, William

Clarry, Reginald George

Hilton, Cecil

Price, Major C. W. M.

Clayton, G. C.

Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

Radford, E. A.

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

Raine, W.

Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Ramsden, E.

Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

Rees, Sir Beddoe

Cohen, Major J. Brunei

Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

Reid, Captain A. S. C. (Warrington)

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Hopkins, J. W. W.

Reid, D. D. (County Down)

Couper, J. B.

Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)

Remer, J. R.

Courtauld, Major J. s.

Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

Rentoul, G. S.

Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L.

Howard, Captain Hon. Donald

Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.)

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, M.)

Rice, Sir Frederick

Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd Whlteh'n)

Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Hume, Sir G. H.

Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis

Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)

Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend)

Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

Huntingfield, Lord

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro)

Hurst, Gerald B.

Rye, F. G.

Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry

Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bPs)

Salmon, Major I.

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Illffe, Sir Edward M.

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Davidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

Jackson, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. F. S.

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Davidson, Major-General Sir John H.

Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

Sandeman. A. Stewart

Davies, Dr. Vernon

Jacob, A. E

Sanders, Sir Robert A.

Davies, David (Montgomery)

Jephcott, A. R.

Sanderson, Sir Frank

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

Sandon, Lord

Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Kidd, J. (Linllthgow)

Savery, S. S.

Dawson, Sir Philip

Kindersley, Major Guy M.

Scott, SI- Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

Dean, Arthur Wellesley

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W. R., Sowerby)

Drewe, C.

Lamb, J. Q.

Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

Eden, Captain Anthony

Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

Shepperson, E. W.

Elliot, Captain Walter E.

Little, Dr. E. Graham

Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

Ellis, R. G.

Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

Smithers, Waldron

Elveden, Viscount

Loder, J. de V.

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

Looker, Herbert William

Sprot, Sir Alexander

Everard, W. Lindsay

Lord, Walter Greaves-

Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

Lougher, L.

Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

Falle, Sir Bertram G-

Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. Westm'eland)

Fanshawe, Commander G. D.

Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Flelden, E. B.

Lynn, Sir R. J.

Storry-Deans, R.

Finburgh, S.

MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

Ford, Sir P. J.

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Streatfeild, Captain S. R.

Forestler-Walker, Sir L.

McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

Strickland, Sir Gerald

Forrest, W.

Maclntyre, Ian

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Foster, Sir Harry S.

McLean, Male A.

Styles, Captain H. Walter

Foxcroft, Captain C. T

Macmllian, Captain H.

Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

Fraser, Captain Ian

Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

Gadle, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

McNeil), Rt. Hon. Ronald John

Templeton, W. p.

Gates, Percy

Macquisten, F. A.

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Watts, Dr. T.

Withers, John James

Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

Wolmer, Viscount

Titchfleld, Major the Marquess of

White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dalrymple

Womersley, W. J.

Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough

Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)

Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.).

Waddington, R.

Wilson, M J. (York, N. R., Richm'd)

Wragg, Herbert

Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. ——

Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Major Cope and Major Margesson.

Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

Wise, Sir Fredric

Original Question again proposed.

It being after Eleven of the Clock, and objection being taken to further Proceeding, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.

Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

Poor Law Relief

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."— [ Commander Eyres Monsell. ]

I desire to raise the question of the recent conduct of the Minister of Health with regard to the administration of Poor Law relief. I will be as brief as I can. On 5th May the Minister issued Circular 703 on account of the general strike. He has since intimated that he considers that the Circular should remain in force until the coal stoppage ends. That Circular says that boards of guardians must carry out their statutory duty with regard to adequate relief. That is the only place in the Circular where the word "adequate" is mentioned. He explains the necessity for economy in the present crisis, summarises the Merthyr Tydvil judgment, and then comes a certain series of suggestions. Having regard to the necessity for economy, he suggests to all boards of guardians except in cases already in receipt of relief where the scale of the pay is modified, that a new scale shall apply; it is not to exceed the amount given under unemployment benefit.

A sum of 18s. is allowed for a man, 5s. for his wife, and 2s. for each child. In cases where, owing to the stoppage the man cannot go for relief, the scale for the wife is not to exceed 12s. and 4s. for each child. These are only suggestions, but already one auditor in the case of Lincoln has declared that he will exercise his power to surcharge unless their scale is I educed to the suggestions put forward by the Ministry. There are areas where the Minister has powers of enforcement. There are a great many unions which have been unable to raise the money required for out-relief from the rates, and they have to borrow money with the consent of the Ministry. A great many of them have come up for renewal since the stoppage, and the Minister of Health in these cases has insisted upon his new scale. We are not dealing now with suggestions but with absolute compulsion. Successive Ministers have on various occasions forced, or attempted to enforce, scales upon boards of guardians.

I will not deal with the Mond Order. Last Autumn the Minister of Health forced upon the West Ham Board of Guardians a scale which represented what he thought was proper, namely, 19s. for a man and his wife plus rent, 5s. for the child, and 15s. for a single man. That scale was for London. The cost of living in London does not materially differ from the cost in the country except on the question of rent. If you take that scale and translate it into South Wales terms where the rent is about 7s. 6d., the scale proposed by the Minister would have worked out at 41s. 6d. for a man, his wife, and three children, and 37s. 6d. per week for a woman left with four children, taking the rent at 7s.6d.

The actual scale, there and everywhere else is 29s. for a family of four where the man is not a striker, and 24s. for a woman with four children. Why is it, when, only last Autumn, the Minister considered that the higher scale was adequate and reasonable, that he enforces a much lower scale upon the miners? He has given the reason in his Circular. It is because the stoppage is likely to be so long. It is because, in short, distress is so widespread; because people have nothing on which to fall back and nothing on which they can borrow, that he considers a much lower scale advisable. The Minister is a prudent and scientific man, and he has taken care to stop up every loophole by which the children or women could get a little more. School authorities give meals, and there is an advice in the Circular that the cost of the meals should be deducted. I am told that in some districts they do deduct the full cost of the meals. You cannot give a meal to school children under 3d. a meal. In some districts they are giving—all honour to them—two meals a day, seven days a week. There is not much left out of the 4s. for the third meal in the day, for food and everything else, if the full reduction is made.

To complete the picture, many Boards of Guardians are giving this miserable relief on loan only; it has to be paid back after the stoppage is over. The Minister, however, has done worse even than this. He has written a Circular to the Welsh Board of Health instructing them that not a single additional penny will be paid for pregnant mothers, for nursing mothers, or small infants; and it is said that if there are applications, the cases are to go to the guardians as cases of distress. The medical officer of health has written to the Board of Guardians at Newport who have remonstrated, saying that all further applications under the Maternity Act are to be transferred to the guardians. The Minister of Health knows that the purpose of the Maternity and Child Welfare Act is quite different from the relief of distress. Milk is given for medical purposes, not for distress, but he sees a chance of taking away a drop of milk from women in that position and from the babies, and the Minister adroitly seizes the chance.

Now I turn to the other side of the picture. What has the Minister done to ensure that relief shall be adequate? I will quote what he said in the House in answer to me. I asked him whether anything whatever had been done to secure that the scales of relief should be adequate, and he replied—it will be within the recollection of the House— protests. It is not, he tells us, his duty to see that the scale is given, and much less than that is actually being given.

My hon. Friend the Member for East Middlesbrough (Miss Wilkinson) interviewed the chairman of the Radstock Board of Guardians. They are giving 10s. for the wife, 5s. for the first child, and 2s. for each other child—all on loan. Pontypridd is another of the cases where the scale was reduced previous to the strike by the order of the Ministry of Health. Pontypridd is only giving 9s. for the wife because it has not enough money. Even where the guardians are administering the law wrongfully, he gives them no instructions. It is a long story and I will try to cut it short. I will only say that in the case of the pitboys relief is being refused under the Merthyr Tydfil judgment although the Judge said that in that case relief was only illegal when other work was available or the person by his own act and consent threw himself out of work. The boys are not entitled to vote. Many of them are unemployed.

I cannot in five minutes give an adequate reply to many of the points the hon. Member has raised, but I think most of them were put when the Minister of Health received a deputation of the Labour party the day before yesterday, and hon. Members will find in most newspapers—there is a long report in the "Times"—the reply which my right hon. Friend gave on that occasion. I will endeavour to answer a few of the points the hon. Member has put. I will take the point she raised about the question of the boys between 14 and 13. That case was put to my right hon. Friend and he stated, as I state to-night, that he would take into account the case of those boys and obtain legal advice upon it. I am bound to say at the present moment we are advised at the Ministry of Health that these workers are covered by the Merthyr Tydvil judgment, but we shall take further, and perhaps the highest legal advice on the matter. When that advice is given we shall then inform the House or any hon. Member who is interested exactly what we propose to do in that matter. I want to say that also in connection with that matter, and one or two others which have been criticised by the hon. Member in relation to the contents of the circular. As she says, the major part of the circular is based upon the Merthyr Tydvil judgment itself, and I think she said we correctly set out in the circular the terms of the Merthyr Tydvil judgment Of course, my right hon. Friend in the same way as any other Minister who has to administer the law, is bound by the terms of the Merthyr Tydvil judgment.

In this Circular, in communicating with the board of guardians, he put two considerations before them. In the first place he said that they should make adequate arrangements for carrying out their statutory duties, and relieving destitution in the particular circumstances in which they find themselves at the present time. On the other hand, I think that he gave equally good advice, which is equally necessary to-day, and that is that they have to conserve their financial resources at the present time. On 22nd May of this year the guardians of this country relieved no fewer than 2,329,000 people, compared with 1,222,000 people on the previous 1st May. The amount borrowed to defray the cost of the general strike by the guardians of this country has been already no less than £1,790,000, and this does not represent the total cost. In such circumstances, it is correct and proper for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health to warn the guardians that if that state of affairs continues and these demands continue, they would, naturally, have to have regard, whether they desire it or not, to their financial resources. It was in such circumstances as these that this Circular was issued, and the hon. Member has not been able as far as the Circular is concerned to point to any particular passage which is contrary to law or which is not wise and prudent advice to give to the guardians at the present time. She complained about the attitude which my right hon. Friend has taken—

It being Half-past Eleven of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.