House of Commons
Thursday, February 9, 1928
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
Civil Contingencies Fund, 1926
Copy ordered, "of Accounts of the Civil Contingencies Fund, 1926, showing (1) the receipts and payments in connection with the Fund in the year ended the 31st day of March, 1927; (2) the distribution of the capital of the Fund at the commencement and close of the year; together with Copy of the Correspondence with the Comptroller and Auditor General thereon."—[ Mr. A. M. Samuel. ]
Oral Answers to Questions
Naval and Military Pensions and Grants
Seven Years' Limit
asked the Minister of Pensions if he is proposing to take any steps to deal with the question of the seven years' limit; if so, what is the nature of the same; and if he has received any representations on the subject?
As I have already announced, arrangements have been made to consider exceptional cases in which it is clearly shown that a man has been seriously incapacitated by his war service and that a claim could not reasonably have been made by an earlier date. I have not received any representations which show that these arrangements are not working satisfactorily.
Has the Minister of Pensions received any representations from ex-service men's associations with regard to the extension of the seven years' period?
We have received a number of cases, which have all been examined, and a number have gone through.
May I ask whether any records are kept of the number that come outside the seven years' period?
No, Sir. I have a record of the cases sent by the hon. Member himself, and they are very few.
Will the Minister of Pensions inform the House how many cases I have sent him?
Seventeen cases in the last five years.
Is the right hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that out of the 17 cases sent within the last five years 8 per cent. have been sent within the last three months, and that it is only now that these cases are appearing?
No, Sir. That is not the case. The seven years' limit has been in operation for a long time.
Bellahouston Hospital, Glasgow
asked the Minister of Pensions if he has yet come to any decision regarding the future of Bellahouston Hospital; if he has received any representations from the Glasgow Corporation on the subject; and if he will consult the Glasgow Members of Parliament before any final action is taken?
I had the advantage this morning of discussing this question with a deputation from the Corporation of the City of Glasgow, who, as on previous occasions, approached the matter in a most helpful spirit. Certain proposals are under consideration, which I hope will lead to an arrangement satisfactory to all parties.
Before the Minister takes any definite action in this matter, may I ask him to discuss the question with representatives of Glasgow, who are not on the City Corporation but in this House?
I shall be happy to receive representations from anybody who can assist me in this matter.
As this is a question of great importance to the persons in hospitals in Glasgow, will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to have the subject discussed here?
I am, of course, happy to receive any representations which the hon. Member thinks fit to bring before me.
Aliens Act
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department upon what grounds Mr. Chao Ting Chi, a Chinese student at the University of Chicago, was refused permission to land at the port of Dover last month, despite the fact that his passport and visa were in order?
This alien was refused leave to land on my instructions, because I was of opinion that it was not in the interests of this country that he should be admitted.
Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that passport Regulations exist, and that if a passport properly vised is granted a man may take the trouble of travelling; then the Home Secretary arbitrarily and upon some mysterious card G.23 suddenly refuses admission?
The powers of the Home Secretary are not limited at all in this respect by any rule or Regulation. I declined to give permission in this case, because I thought it was not desirable in the interests of the country.
Granted that the powers of the Home Secretary are not limited, have we no right to know whether the wisdom of the Home Secretary is not very limited?
No, Sir. You can only draw your own conclusions.
Do not the same terms apply in the United States of America and is not the hon. Member for Battersea North (Mr. Saklatvala) fully aware of the fact from his own personal experience?
Is my right hon. Friend aware that an organisation exists for forging these passports?
Public Meetings (Disturbances)
asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to the increasing frequency of organised disturbance of public meetings; and whether, particularly in view of the proposed extension of the female franchise, he intends to take power to maintain order and the right of free speech, particularly at General Elections?
Before this question is answered, may I ask your ruling, Mr. Speaker, as to whether it is desirable that implied insults of this character should be included in a Parliamentary Question?
I see nothing objectionable in the question. The facts are common knowledge.
I have for some time had this matter under consideration. I am not sure that the evidence supports the view that such disturbances are increasing, and I do not think it necessary to propose legislation on the subject. I have, however, recently communicated to the police my views as to the steps which might properly be taken to give the fullest effect to the provisions of the existing law.
In view of the right hon. Gentleman's well-known interest in the question of the extension of female franchise, will he not realise that a wholly new situation has been created in regard to attendance at public meetings where disorderly scenes take place; that when it is only a question of male electors it does not matter, but that the possibility of Communist and Socialist interruption makes the meetings unfit for women to attend?
Does the right hon. Gentleman agree with the suggestion in the question, that the new female voters are going to add to the disturbances at public meetings?
Men Killed in the War (Conviction Records)
asked the Home Secretary whether he has received from the Recorder at Birmingham a recommendation from the grand jury that legislation to enable the eradication of records of convictions against men killed in the late War be introduced; and whether he is considering legislation to this effect?
asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been drawn to the resolution of the grand jury at the Birmingham Quarter Sessions held in January last, expressing the view that soldiers and sailors who made the great sacrifice in the War and had a conviction recorded against them should have it erased; and whether he will consider introducing a Bill ordering that such convictions be erased from the records of those who have given their lives for their country, so that any transgressions of these men should be obliterated and nothing to their discredit left on record?
While I sympathise with the object the grand jury had in mind, I regret that I have not been able to discover any practicable method of giving effect to it.
May I ask whether the idea does not appeal to my right hon. Friend as a matter of common justice?
Not common justice, but common mercy. I cannot admit that the convictions were wrong. I should have to get lists and send them round to every petty sessional authority right throughout the country. There would be an enormous number of lists and inquiries, and an enormous amount of work which really, I do not think would be in the public interest.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the suggestion of appealing to the local police authorities to send up the records of these men, whom they probably know, so that they can be kept in the Home Office and not open to public inspection?
I will consider that suggestion.
Metropolitan Police (Religious Services)
asked the Home Secretary whether, in view of the fact that in the allocation of hours of duty to the London police their times off duty are so arranged that their opportunities for attending religious services are very inadequate, and that attendance at such services is discouraged, he will inquire into this question?
The hours of duty of the Metropolitan Police are so arranged that every officer has the opportunity of attending Divine Service, if he so desires, either in the morning or evening; moreover, on Sundays the percentage of officers on weekly leave is far in excess of the numbers on ordinary leave on week-days.
Has the Home Secretary received any complaints from the police that their duties are not so arranged?
No, Sir.
May I ask whether it is correct to say attendance at such services is discouraged?
Quite in correct. There is no discouragement of any kind. A man can do exactly as he likes.
Will the right hon. Gentleman make further inquiry, because it is reported that there is some dissatisfaction in this respect?
I have made full inquiry, and I have given the House the answer. If the hon. Member has any information I shall be most grateful to him for it.
Borstal Institution
asked the Home Secretary what response has been made to his recent appeal for gifts of money to build a new Borstal institution?
I regret that my expectations have not yet been realised.
In view of the fact that his appeal has not been successful, is the right hon. Gentleman going to do what is necessary and pay the expenses out of State funds?
I did not say that I had given up all hope of my expectations being realised; they have not yet been realised. I have not yet approached the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Jurymen
asked the Home Secretary whether he will introduce legislation imposing penalties on jurymen who comment on a case, at any rate between their verdict and the execution of the sentence?
The practice mentioned is most improper, but I am glad to think is very rare, and I do not think any legislation is needed.
Education
Dulwich College (Scholarships)
asked the President of the Board of Education whether he has received protests against the amending scheme for Dulwich College, which will have the effect of considerably reducing the number of scholarships available for pupils from publicly-provided schools; and whether he will refuse to sanction the scheme?
asked the President of the Board of Education whether he has received any representations in opposition to the proposed new scheme for Dulwich College; if so, from whom; and whether he will withhold his consent to the scheme until it is so amended as to safeguard the educational opportunities of the poorer children of South-east London?
I have received representations in regard to one or more of the provisions of the draft amending scheme from 75 bodies (a list of which I am sending the hon. Members), and from 497 individuals. All such representations, including those which relate to the provision of free places at Dulwich College, will receive full consideration before any amending scheme is established. I may perhaps remind the hon. Member for North Camberwell (Mr. Ammon) that the total number of scholarships now open to eligible children from publicly provided schools need not be affected by the approval or otherwise of the draft scheme.
Although, they need not be affected, are we going to have any guarantee that they will not? Is not the whole matter thrown into the dis- cretion of the Government, whereas at the present moment certain duties are prescribed?
The hon. Member is talking about something else. Whether or no Dulwich College continues to receive scholars from the elementary publicly-provided schools, or whether they receive a larger or smaller number, there is no reason why they should restrict the number of junior scholarships given by the London County Council, held at secondary schools.
Is it not a fact that the Governor of Dulwich College has already made a statement that if this scheme goes through it will reduce considerably the number of scholarships.
That has nothing to do with the number of junior scholarships held by pupils at publicly-provided schools in London.
Is it not the case that if the number of county minor scholars received by Dulwich College is reduced, the London County Council will be able for the same expenditure to award more of such scholarships than at present, owing to the fact that the fees at the secondary schools are substantially lower than at Dulwich College?
Is it not a fact that the Education Committee of the London County Council have already said that they have not sufficient places to meet the demand for scholarships?
We cannot have an interminable Debate on the subject.
Owing to the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible opportunity.
Teachers, Abertillery
asked the-President of the Board of Education whether his attention has been called to the action of the Abertillery Education Authority in serving notices to all the teachers serving in provided schools terminating their engagements on 29th February; whether he or his Department were consulted before such action was taken and, if so, by whom; and whether, in view of the action having been taken and the notices served, he can state what steps he is taking to secure that no interruption in the education of the children concerned will take place?
I am aware of the action taken by the Abertillery Authority. Neither I nor my Department were consulted before the action was taken. I do not think that it would be desirable for me to make a further statement at this stage.
Contributory Pensions Act
asked the Minister of Health if his Department is issuing circulars to widows, insured persons in their own right and aged 65 or over, informing them that, as they are in receipt of a Service dependant's pension in respect of a son killed in the War of an amount at least equal to the pension payable under the Widows', Orphans', and Old Age Contributory Pensions Act, 1925, no pension is payable under this Act; and whether, seeing that the Ministry of Pensions Regulations make provision for a reduction in the need pensions of widows if their income exceeds 25s. a week from all sources, he will withdraw the circular and authorise the issue of old age pension to these widows?
I am advised that no circular in the terms indicated has been issued by my Department. If the hon. Member will furnish me with a copy of the communication to which he refers I will look further into the matter.
asked the Minister of Health the total number of widows who have received the widows' pension since the commencement of the Act, but whose pension has ceased owing to the youngest child reaching 14½ years of age?
This information is not available.
asked the Minister of Health the number of widows who have applied and been refused the widows' pension owing to their having married a man who was 60 years of age?
No special record has been kept of the number of widows whose claims have failed because of this provision, but up to the present I am advised that it can safely be put at under 20.
asked the Minister of Health how many persons over 65 years of age ceased to receive National Health Insurance benefits during January owing to the operation of the new Pensions Act?
The benefits under the National Health Insurance scheme which cease at 65 are those relating to sickness and disablement only; medical benefit, that is free medical attendance and medicine, together with additional treatment benefits, remaining available for the rest of the insured person's life. The estimated number of insured persons who had reached the age of 65 on the 2nd of January is 355,000 and the addition during January is estimated at 8,000. All these persons would cease to pay contributions under the Health Insurance scheme and to be entitled to the sickness and disablement benefits referred to. The actual numbers of those who were in receipt of these benefits at the time when their title to them ceased are not accurately known and could only be ascertained by a special examination of the records of each of the 7,000 approved societies and branches.
Assistant Overseers, Bishop Auckland (Compensation)
asked the Minister of Health if he is aware that, in some recent decisions where he has awarded compensation to assistant overseers whose services were not retained by the Bishop Auckland rating authority, he has fixed a higher amount to those who appealed than that paid to others; and can he state on what basis he arrived at his figures?
No, Sir; where claims for compensation are settled by a rating authority and no appeal is made to me I have no information as to the basis of settlement. Five appeals have been made to me from this area and these appeals have been determined by the application of the ordinary rules.
Can the right hon. Gentleman not give the House the authority and the basis on which he founds his figures, so as to do justice to the overseers?
If I have any request from any authorities for that information, I shall be happy to give it.
Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that they have made the request, and it has been refused?
No, I am not aware of it.
They have made the request.
Local Bating Incidence
asked the Minister of Health if, in view of the importance of the incidence of local rating, he will give instructions to have the return dealing with area and rates of all urban authorities, which was presented to Parliament on 7th May, 1913, brought up to date; and if he will arrange to have all areas, both urban and rural, included in such return?
A statement giving a large amount of information with regard to rates and assessments in all boroughs and urban districts and a considerable number of typical rural parishes is already published annually, and I am sending the hon. Member a copy of the statement for the year 1926–27.
Unemployment
Single Men, Blaenavon,(Poor Law Relief)
asked the Minister of Health whether he has received representations on behalf of 145 single men who are destitute at Blaenavon, and cannot obtain any relief from the Abergavenny Board of Guardians owing to the instructions of his Department with regard to such men; whether he is aware that the steelworks and some of the mines have been closed down for several years, and no work is obtainable in the district; and whether he proposes to take any action with a view of assisting these single men?
I have received such a representation, signed by the officers of the Wesleyan Church, Park Street, Blaenavon. I am not aware that the guardians have refused to grant relief in these cases, though it would appear that they may have refused to grant out-door relief. I am making inquiries into the representation, and will communicate further with the hon. Member.
Training Centres
asked the Minister of Labour how many training centres have been established for unemployed persons; where they are situated; and the number of persons attending them on 31st January, 1928?
I think it would be helpful to give as complete a reply as possible to this question, and with the hon. Member's permission, I will circulate a full answer in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Has anything been done in regard to the training centres that were promised in South Wales for young miners who are out of work?
Yes; anew centre has just been opened, to which it is hoped many of these young men will be sent.
Where?
Dudley.
Following is the reply:
Training centres for unemployed men have been established at Birmingham, Dudley, Wallsend-on-Tyne, Claydon near Ipswich, and Brandon. The number of men in attendance at the end of January was 1,281.
Home training centres for unemployed women and girls are being conducted by the Central Committee on Women's Training and Employment at Chatham, Ramsgate, Dover, Bristol, Liverpool, Manchester, Gateshead, Jarrow, Newcastle, Sheffield, Leeds, Pontypool, Abertillery, Swansea, Glasgow and Greenock. The number in attendance at the end of January was 882. There is also a centre at Market Harborough for training women as household workers for Australia; 39 were in attendance at the end of January.
Ninety-four Juvenile Unemployment Centres (62 for boys and 32 for girls) have been established by local education authorities in 43 districts. In addition, four centres have been approved but are not yet open, and other centres are in prospect. The number of boys and girls attending during the last week for which figures are available was 8,200, representing an average daily attendance of 7,000 (5,000 boys and 2,000 girls).
Following is a list of the areas in which Juvenile Unemployment Centres are open:—
Number of Centres open. District. Boys. Girls. London (Poplar) … 1 1 Barking … 1 1 West Ham … 1 1 Bristol … 1 1 Plymouth … 2 2 Portsmouth … 1 1 Wolverhampton … 1 1 Ashington … 1 — Bishop Auckland … 1 — Gateshead … 2 1 Grimsby … 1 1 Hartlepool … 1 — Hull … 1 1 Jarrow … 1 — Leeds … 1 — Middlesbrough … 1 — Newburn … 1 — Newcastle-on-Tyne … 1 1 Sheffield … 1 1 South Shields … 1 — Sunderland … 1 — Birkenhead … — 1 Bootle … 1 — Liverpool … 3 2 Manchester … 3 3 Wigan … — 1 Aberdeen … 1 1 Edinburgh … 2 1 Glasgow … 15 8 Greenock … 1 — Motherwell … 1 — Abertillery … 1 — Aberdare … 1 — Blaina … 1 — Cardiff … 1 1 Ebbw Vale … 1 — Ferndale … 1 — Merthyr … 1 — Pontypool … 1 — Pontypridd … 1 — Port Talbot … 1 — Swansea … 1 — Tonypandy … 1 — Total … 62 32
Aged Workers
asked the Minister of Labour if instructions have been issued to the managers of Employment Exchanges that they are not to register men over 65 years of age who are seeking employment?
No, Sir. No such instruction has been given. Applicants over 65 may still register for employment and will be submitted for vacancies for which they are suitable.
Is the hon. Member aware that managers of Employment Exchanges are refusing or have refused men of 65 the right to sign on?
No, I am not aware of that, and if the hon. Member will give me any specific and definite information, I shall be very glad to look into it.
asked the Minister of Labour how many unemployed persons over 65 years of age ceased to receive unemployment benefit during January owing to the operation of the new Pensions Act?
The only available figure is that for the number of persons aged 65 and over with current claims to benefit at the beginning of January, namely, 28,500. The number then in receipt of benefit, which may be taken to be approximately the weekly number whose unemployment benefit ceased on account of the operation of the Pensions Act, was something less than this total, but I cannot give the precise figure.
Housing
Slum Clearances, Worcestershire
asked the Minister of Health the number of slum-clearance schemes sanctioned by his Department for the various local authorities in Worcestershire, and the total amount of money granted by his Department in each case?
Three slum clearance schemes have been confirmed in Worcestershire, two at Oldbury and one in the City of Worcester. The annual Exchequer contributions in aid of the schemes have not yet been fixed, but on provisional figures they are estimated at £500 in respect of the three schemes, representing 50 per cent. of the estimated annual loss.
Building Materials (Prices)
asked the Minister of Health what action he intends to take with reference to the November Report of the inter-departmental committee upon prices of building materials, with particular regard to the large increases shown in the prices of bricks as compared with those of January, 1924?
Although the report referred to by the hon. Member revealed that the prices of common bricks in eight of the areas which reported to the committee were in excess of the prices ruling in January, 1924, in five of the districts the prices were, in fact, lower than the January, 1924, prices. I understand that the prices of bricks continue to show a downward tendency, and in view of this I propose to await the next report of the inter-departmental committee.
Poor Law Administration, London
asked the Minister of Health whether he will publish as a White Paper the investigations of the Metropolitan inspector on the administration of outdoor relief in certain London unions as sent to the guardians of those unions?
These investigations are undertaken with the object of assisting the guardians to bring under review and to improve their administration in certain directions; and it is obviously right that reports upon such investigations should be regarded as primarily for the consideration of the guardians. I do not think that the objects which I have in view will be best served by adopting the course suggested. My hon. and gallant Friend will, of course, realise that the consideration of these reports by the guardians necessarily involves a good deal of publicity.
Government Departments
Ministry of Health
asked the Minister of Health whether the Ministry is on the King's Roll; and the total number of persons employed in the Ministry, the number that served in the Great War, and the number of disabled men?
The name of "His Majesty's Treasury on behalf of all Government Departments" is on the King's Roll for the employment of disabled ex-service men, and it is therefore unnecessary for my Department to be separately registered. The total number of persons employed in my Department is 5,762, of whom 1,946 are women, 3,101 of the men served in the Great War, and 1,014 are disabled men.
asked the Minister of Health if his attention has been drawn to the difficulty in obtaining replies during the month of January from the Insurance Department, Ministry of Health, Acton; and whether he will consider the desirability of increasing the staff that deals with correspondence?
During the first part of January the daily postal receipts in the Acton Office of the Ministry exceeded 50,000 a day, as compared with a normal figure of some 10,000 a day. In the circumstances, some delay in dealing with correspondence was inevitable. As regards the second part of the question, the difficulty is a purely temporary one which would not be cured by adding officers with no experience of the work. Certain re-arrangements of the staff of the Department have, however, been made with a view to the wiping out of the arrears as quickly as possible.
asked the Minister of Health if more than 130 ex-service men, clerks at the Ministry of Health, Acton, have been given notice terminating their appointments; if so, what is the average length of employment in the Civil Service since discharge from the forces of the Crown and how many of the men are disabled; and the number of young men and women recruited for his Department, through the Civil Service Commissioners, in the two years ending 31st December, 1928?
One hundred and twenty-one temporary ex-service clerks serving in various branches of the Ministry, including the Acton Office, have been given notice terminating their appointments at the end of March, mainly owing to prospective reduction of work following tin the coming into full effect of the Pensions Act. Their average length of service in this and other Government Departments is six years eight months. Five are disabled men. For the two years ended 31st December, 1927, 568 men and 435 women have been recruited through the Civil Service Commissioners, of whom all the men but five were ex-service men with previous service as temporary clerks.
Why is the right hon. Gentleman getting rid of these ex-service men and thus setting a bad example to the rest of the country?
They were taken on only for temporary employment, and because the employment has come to an end they have been given notice of discharge.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the great difficulty these men will have in getting employment in view of the state of trade, and cannot he keep them on?
I do not think I could undertake to do that. I cannot Keep on men for whom there is no work.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the length of the service of these men, and will he not take that into consideration?
It has been taken into consideration.
Admiralty (Department of Naval Construction)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty the total number of staff employed at the present time in the Department of Naval Construction; and what were the corresponding figures for the years 1914 and 1927, respectively?
The total number of staff employed at the present time in the Department of Naval Construction is 215. The corresponding figures provided in the Navy Estimates for 1914℃1915 and 1927, respectively, were 175 and 215.
Why is so large a staff still required, in view of the fact that the anticipated Naval Programme is being curtailed, and that it is anticipated that it will be much more curtailed in the future?
Perhaps my hon. and gallant Friend will realise that the present battleships and all war vessels are more complicated in construction than they were before, and that they will gradually become so from year to year; they have become increasingly so in the last few years. Has the hon. and gallant Gentleman been to Portsmouth and seen the "Victory" arid the "Nelson"?
Is it not a fact that the number of ships is very much smaller than in 1914 when the staff was much less?
National Finance
Income Tax
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that the collection of Income Tax under Schedule A in one sum entails hardship to those farmer-owners who have suffered losses in their business and to whom repayment of the tax will ultimately be due; that while repayment, judging by past experience, may be delayed for a year the payment of the tax now entails borrowing at interest; and whether he will be able to take any steps to mitigate the hardship?
I think I can confidently assure my hon. Friend that the existing arrangements for meeting cases of serious hardship are adequate for the purpose; but if he will give me particulars of any cases he has in mind, in which he considers the fanner-owners are being unreasonably treated, I shall be happy to make inquiries and let him know the result.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether it is still possible to make payment of Income Tax by means of Income Tax stamps; and whether stocks of special cards and stamps for this purpose are obtainable at the post offices?
Arrangements still exist whereby certain weekly wage-earners who are assessed to Income Tax half-yearly may pay their tax by purchasing stamps and affixing them to cards. The stamps are obtainable at any post office, and stocks of the cards are kept by the collectors of taxes, who issue them on request. I may add that the taxpayers concerned make little use of these arrangements at the present time.
Does the right hon. Gentleman not think that the method of paying by instalments, by stamps, would be less painful to many Income Tax payers; and would it not be more popular if the right hon. Gentleman made the fact better known throughout the country?
Whether it is less painful to spread the agony over a longer period is a matter for personal judgment.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that inspectors of taxes have recently caused much extra expense and trouble to small tradesmen and farmers by insisting that their accounts must be audited by chartered accountants and farm stock valued by professional valuers; and whether, when accounts are shown in a proper manner, he will instruct inspectors of taxes to accept such accounts to be placed for assessment purposes before the Commissioners without their having to be audited by chartered accountants?
I am not aware of the matter to which my hon. and gallant Friend refers, but if he has in mind any case or cases in which it is alleged that inspectors of taxes are acting in the manner indicated in his question, and will let me have the necessary particulars, I will gladly have the position investigated and will communicate the result to him in due course.
Is it not the case that not only in these industries but in other industries it is very often insisted upon that returns cannot be accepted unless they are sent in by professional men?
No, Sir, I think that is not so, and at any rate it is not the law.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in my hands I have the very case to which he refers? I shall be glad to show it to him.
I think that will meet the case.
Stamp Duties (Receipts)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been drawn to the habitual evasion of the law requiring the use of a 2d. stamp on receipts for amounts exceeding £2; and whether he can see his way to adopt any measures to prevent the revenue being thus defrauded?
The attention of the Commissioners of Inland Revenue is constantly being called to cases where receipts which ought to have been stamped have been given without a stamp, and suitable action is taken by them in each case.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say what action is actually being taken?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in the majority of the department stores vouchers are given, and that when receipts are demanded the customers are told that they can have them only by applying to the secretary?
I have said that suitable action is taken. If the hon. Gentleman wants me to analyse the word "suitable" I should like notice.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I have called his attention to this matter on several occasions and that no action has been taken in the various places that carry on this practice?
It is not often that the Inland Revenue officials are accused of being too lax.
In regard to the word "suitable," does the right hon. Gentleman arrange for an inspection of hotel accounts, small hotels particularly? Is there any system of inspection of hotel receipts?
I have not given my personal attention to this part of the subject.
Does the right hon. Gentleman not spend his holidays at hotels?
They are not small ones.
Death Duties (Earl Haig)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether it is proposed to remit part of the Death Duties in respect of the gratuity paid to the late Earl Haig at the end of the last War?
The law gives me no power to make any remission of Death Duties in this case.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that by public subscription the estate at Bemersyde was recently presented to Lord Haig and his family and not to the taxpayers, and that it is an unremunerative estate? It was a gift by the public, and will he take these facts into consideration if he is to take any steps in the matter?
Pensioner, Glasgow (Refund Claim)
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury if he is aware that Mr. P. M'Taggart, 278, Mathieson Street, Glasgow, drew for some time two pensions, one from the Army and the other from the Post Office; that this was due to no fault of the man; that both departments were in receipt of all information; that this was found to be a wrong thing to do; that a promise was given that if the mistake was not wilful no refund would be asked for; that a refund of money is now being demanded; and if he will take steps to have the promise kept?
The facts are as stated in the first four parts of the question, except that when the civil pension was awarded it was not known that the period of War service had been already reckoned for military pension. The statement made was that overpayments due to departmental error would not be recovered. If Mr. McTaggart elects to retain his military pension the resulting overpayment of civil pension will not be reclaimed from him. He has however the further option of relinquishing his military service pension with retrospective effect. In that event the war period can be reckoned for civil pension and a larger pension secured. He must however refund the past payments in respect of military pension, the award of which was quite in order and not due to any departmental error. He would be allowed to refund the sum so due by small monthly deductions from his civil pension. This would still leave him in receipt of a slightly larger sum per week than is payable in respect of his military service pension.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that his predecessor in office in answer to the hon. Member for North Camberwell (Mr. Ammon) promised that if there was no wilful misrepresentation no refund would be asked from the man; that now a refund is being demanded from this man of, roughly speaking, £100 and that it means compelling the man to go on the Poor Law?
I have gone personally into the papers of this case, and I wrote to the hon. Member about it only last night and made a further explanation. It is a very involved matter, and I think when the hon. Gentleman has read my reply to his question and the letter which I have sent to him he will find that there is a solution in one of them. If he does not think so, perhaps he will see me about the matter. I shall be glad to place myself at his service in my room in order to discuss the matter.
I beg to give notice that as I have got no satisfaction I intend to raise the matter on the Adjournment.
War Films (Production and Assistance)
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that the cinema film of the Battle of Arras, which was made under the auspices of the War Office, was first exclusively released in a theatre owned by American capital; and will he state whether British renters were first offered an opportunity of exhibiting it?
The official film of the Battle, of Arras was first exhibited publicly at the Scala Theatre (which was British owned) in London in 1917. It was subsequently released for general exhibition and British renters were at liberty to apply for it. In November, 1927, this film was applied for by, and was reissued to, the Tivoli Theatre, which is registered as a British company. Under their hiring contract the Tivoli Theatre enjoyed no exclusive right to the film.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say if it is a fact that certain British theatres, run by British capital, have since applied for this film and have not been able to get it?
I cannot answer that question off-hand. If the hon. Member puts down a question, I will try to get the information.
Is if a fact that British theatres have been asked twice as much as was paid by the Tivoli theatre?
I have no knowledge of that.
Will the right hon. Gentleman make inquiries into these matters?
Certainly; I have made inquiries, and the answer which I have given to the hon. Baronet is the result of those inquiries. If he wishes, and will ask further questions, I shall make further inquiries.
Is it the intention of the Government to support or assist the manufacture of any films other than war films?
That is a question which ought not to be addressed to me as it is beyond my knowledge.
Floods
Tate Gallery
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury the extent to which the National Collection in the Tate Gallery has suffered during the recent floods?
Fortunately, the extent of the damage is not as great as might have been anticipated. Of the 190 oil paintings involved, only 100 suffered material damage, and of these not more than about 20 are thought to be past repair. These belong, almost without exception, to the mid-Victorian period, and none of them can be regarded as of primary importance. The Turner Collection of drawings and water-colours was partially immersed, but the prompt measures taken by the authorities will, it is believed, enable the Collection to be restored almost to its recent condition. All the most important pictures in the gallery, being hung on the ground floor, remained unaffected by the flood.
Will the hon. Gentleman see that the directors of this-gallery benefit by their experience; and will he represent to the directors of galleries in general that valuable collections are not meant to be stowed away as lumber in cellars, and that if they cannot use their collections they ought to pass them on to someone else who can?
I will report the hon. Gentleman's suggestion to the proper authorities.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say if the Lane collection of pictures which were in danger from the Thames floods, will be removed to Dublin where they will be safe?
Sea-Walls, Essex
asked the Minister of Agriculture if his attention has been drawn to the serious floods which have occurred on the Essex coast, especially on the estuaries of the rivers Blackwater and Crouch; if he is aware that the sea-walls have suffered severe damage and that their reinstatement constitutes a burden on many farmers which they are quite unable to bear under the existing circumstances of agricultural depression; and what action he proposes to take in the matter?
I have had the advantage of a discussion with representatives of those whose property has been damaged as the result of the serious floods which recently occurred on the Essex coast. As my hon. and gallant Friend is aware, this is unfortunately by no means an isolated case, and does not differ in principle from erosion by the sea in other parts of the coast. It has been the settled policy of successive Governments for many years not to assume liability for loss of or damage to property in such circumstances. While I fully sympathise with all who have suffered, I regret that in the present financial situation the Government are unable to make an exception in this case, or advise Parliament to provide assistance from State funds.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the allocation of part of the £1,000,000 allocated to land drainage on this ground, and that the encroachment of the sea water obviously impairs the existing system of land drainage?
Has the right hon. Gentleman had conversations with the owners of the land, and can he say whether the owners are prepared to do something to rectify the damage?
The deputation which discussed this matter represented all interests and came primarily, I think, on behalf of the National Farmers' Union.
Kingston By-Pass Road
asked the Minister of Transport whether, in view of the serious flooding that recently occurred on the Kingston by-pass road at its termination with the Portsmouth Road, steps will be taken to prevent a recurrence?
Owing to the levels of the ground, it is impossible to guarantee that in such abnormal conditions as recently prevailed slight local flooding can be entirely prevented.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Southern Railway power station at Thames Ditton was recently flooded, and necessitated the attendance of the local fire brigade?
I do not think that arises out of the question.
Preventive Measures
asked the Prime Minister what action the Government has taken or intends to take to prevent any recurrence of flooding by the waters of the River Thames of the districts in the London area?
I have been asked to reply. The matter is being considered by a Committee appointed at a conference of the Public Authorities and Government Departments concerned, and it is hoped that a report will shortly be ready.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether that committee is now sitting regularly, or whether they had two meetings, and then suspended their sittings?
They are not suspended.
Is it a fact that the committee has adjourned, if it has not suspended its sittings? Can the right hon. Gentleman say when the report will be issued, in view of the seriousness of the matter?
The sittings are not adjourned, or suspended. The committee is in operation, and its report will shortly be issued.
Will anything be done before next winter?
Agriculture
Foot-And-Mouth Disease
asked the Minister of Agriculture if he is aware that, among possible sources of infection, foot-and-mouth disease is considered by the agricultural community to be brought by plants, shrubs, and trees imported from abroad; what means is taken to disinfect the wrappings and earth with these plants; and if he has any information as to what method is adopted by the Irish Free State towards the importation of plants, shrubs, and trees from infected countries?
I am aware that imported plants, shrubs and trees are in some quarters regarded as a possible source of infection of foot-and-mouth disease. On the recommendation of the Departmental Committee on Foot-and-Mouth Disease in 1925 the Foot-and- Mouth Disease (Packing Materials) Order, 1925, was issued which prohibits the holding of sales of these articles on premises used for sales of livestock and requires the destruction of hay and straw used for packing such plants. The Order also prohibits such packing materials from being brought into contact with animals. Pending the destruction of the packing material no steps are required to be taken to disinfect it. I am not aware that the Government of the Irish Free State has made any regulations dealing with the importation of plants, shrubs and trees from infected countries.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that at many railway stations and ports shrubs and plants are disembarked or put on railway trucks in the same place as cattle, and will he see that this does not occur?
I will go into that matter and see if we cannot find any way in which to lessen the risk.
Is the system of inspection adequate to ensure that these packings are destroyed? What kind of inspection is it?
I do not think we have had any evidence that outbreaks have actually been caused in this way. It is only a matter of suspicion.
asked the Minister of Agriculture if his attention has been called to the continued restrictions in North Lincolnshire due to the outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease; if he is aware that the continued closing of markets has been very detrimental to the agricultural interests; and if he will consider the opening of certain markets for the immediate slaughter of animals?
As the reply is rather long; I propose, with my hon. and gallant Friend's permission, to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the reply:
The restrictions imposed in consequence of the outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease in North Lincolnshire are similar to those adopted in infected areas in other parts of the country. They are the restrictions which were approved by the Departmental Committees on Foot-and-Mouth Disease as necessary to prevent the spread of infection. The Orders permit markets of fat stock obtained from premises in the infected area to be held by licence of the local authority at any place outside a radius of five miles from any infected premises, provided that the animals are disposed of direct to a slaughterhouse within the area. In addition, farmers may dispose of their fat stock direct to a slaughterhouse in the area if a licence is obtained from a local inspector.
Though the restrictions inevitably cause dislocation of the ordinary markets, the continuance of markets without this restriction would seriously increase the risk of the spread of infection and be far more detrimental to agricultural interests in the long run than the restrictions themselves. Since the commencement of the present outbreak in the Lindsey Division on the 25th December, 15 premises in all have become infected, two of which were notified during the past 14 days, one at Strubby-with-Woodthorpe on the 3rd instant and the other at Scawby on the 4th instant. If no further outbreak occurs, I hope to be able to make some reduction of the area under restrictions in about 10 days.
Wages
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is contemplating any change in the operation of the Agricultural Wage Regulation Act, 1924?
No, Sir.
Milk Consumption (Publicity Campaign)
asked the Minister of Agriculture what steps he is proposing to take to stimulate the consumption of milk in accordance with his recent statement to the Council of Agriculture?
The Empire Marketing Board, after consultation with the Ministry of Agriculture, propose to undertake next April a publicity campaign in favour of the consumption of fresh milk. The campaign will extend over six months in the first instance, but it may be continued for a further considerable period, if the preliminary results are satisfactory and if producers' and distributors' organisations then show themselves prepared to devote to publicity for the same purpose a sum equal to that contributed by the Board. I need hardly add that I propose to do all I can to promote this scheme and ensure its success.
Will the right hon. Gentleman endeavour to guard against a price-raising campaign, because a rise of price occurred in the case of the fruit campaign?
I do not think there ought to be any rise of price. As the right hon. Gentleman is aware, there is a considerable excess of milk which cannot find a fresh market at the present time and that could quite well be absorbed, I should imagine, without any serious effect in a rise of price.
Will the right hon. Gentleman make representations to other Ministers as to the discouragement of the consumption of milk likely to be due to the announced reduction in miners' wages?
While encouraging the consumption of fresh milk, will the right hon. Gentleman discourage the importation of foreign condensed milk?
Will the right hon. Gentleman also discourage the consumption of alcohol?
Will the right hon. Gentleman see that in this advocacy of fresh milk consumption some measures are taken to discriminate between tuberculous-free milk and other milk which may be dangerous?
There has been a most remarkable improvement in the condition of the milk supplies. The proportion of tuberculous milk is very much lower than it was a few years ago, and I do not think that any more can be done than is being done at the present time in the way of improving our supply of milk and avoiding this danger.
Does the Minister propose in this publicity campaign to work with the Ministry of Health, who are naturally able to get at the medical channels of recommending milk, and who have already a publicity campaign on hand?
We will certainly work in conjunction with the Ministry of Health.
In view of the fact that at least 70 per cent, of the London milk supply is controlled by a combine, will the right hon. Gentleman make sure that this publicity campaign is not followed by an increase in the price of milk in London?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the most certain way to increase the consumption of milk amongst the adult population and also to reduce the danger of tuberculous milk is to reduce the Spirits Duty?
Textile Industry (Committee of Inquiry)
44 and 54.
(1) asked the Prime Minister whether, having regard to the position of the textile industry, he will appoint a committee of inquiry to investigate and report what action is desirable to put this industry upon a sound footing;
(2) asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will appoint a committee to consider and report upon the costs of production in the cotton industry?
I have been asked to reply. I would refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave him on 22nd November last. A strong committee organised by the Manchester Chamber of Commerce is conducting a detailed inquiry into the whole position of the cotton trade, including costs of production, methods of manufacture and sale. I think it will be generally agreed that the technical problems of this industry can be most usefully discussed and are most likely to be solved by those who have long experience in the trade itself, and who are deeply concerned to find a solution.
Has the right hon. Gentleman made any representation at all to the employers to await the findings of this committee before they take action?
This is a committee organised by the Manchester Chamber of Commerce, and consists of every section of the employers' side of the trade, the spinners, the weavers, the merhants, and the shippers.
May I ask whether the employés were at all represented in these investigations, and will the right hon. Gentleman reply to my first question? Has any representation been made to the cotton textile employers to hold their hands until a reply is forthcoming, following these investigations?
That is a matter for the Ministry of Labour, and not for the Board of Trade.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that some of the employers are recommending an increase in the hours and a reduction of wages in order to solve this problem, and in view of the disastrous failure of such a policy in the mining areas will he stop this business?
That is quite separate from this inquiry. I am aware that certain meetings did take place between representatives of some employers and some of the unions. This is an entirely separate committee, organised by the Manchester Chamber of Commerce, not dealing with wages, as I understand, but dealing with all the technical, commercial, and selling problems of the industry. I think it is a great step forward that that investigation should have been set on foot under these auspices, and that so many competent people are taking part in it, and I am certain that the best service this House can render is to encourage that Committee to go on with its investigations.
Does the right hon. Gentleman not realise that it is bound to be a one-sided inquiry, seeing that it has been instituted by the Chamber of Commerce? Does he not realise that any Report is bound to be received with suspicion, if that Report is to be used for the purpose of reducing wages?
The hon. Member has, no business to suggest that the Report, which has not yet been made—there is an interim Report of the greatest possible value—is going to be used in order to reduce wages. It was argued most strenuously in the Debates of last Session how important it was that the various sections of the trade, the manufacturers, the salesmen, the merchants, should get down to study the full commercial problems of the cotton trade, from start to finish. That is now being done by the technical experts themselves, and I do most sincerely hope that this inquiry, of a practical character, will be given a free and full opportunity.
Does the right hon. Gentleman think that it is calculated to breed that good will, which is so necessary, if the inquiry includes one section, and another section is excluded?
King's Bench Judges
asked the Prime Minister whether it is the intention of the Government to proceed with the Resolution passed last Session in another place for the appointment of two Judges?
Perhaps the hon. Member will be good enough to await the statement on Business which I propose to make after Questions.
Aviation
Airships
asked the Secretary of State for Air if he is now able to form an estimate of how much in excess of the amount granted in 1914 (£1,200,000) the Cardington-Howden airship scheme will cost the country?
I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for Springburn (Mr. Hardie) on 16th November last. If it proves advisable to prolong the period of execution of the programme, some further excess may be unavoidable.
asked the Secretary of State for Air if he is now in a position to give definite dates, weather permitting, for the launching of Airships R100 and R101, respectively?
No, Sir. I am still not prepared to give firm dates, since the completion of the two vessels must necessarily be liable to the same unforeseen delays as arise in the case, for example, of a shipbuilding programme, whilst the novel and experimental character of the work would clearly make any attempt to "rush" construction to overtake such delays unwise in the extreme. I have, however, every hope that both ships will be ready to take the air some time this calendar year; the R100, in particular, if present progress is maintained, should be flying before the end of the summer.
Neon Beacon
asked the Secretary of State for Air whether he is watching the experiments in the United States of America with the Neon gas beacon for the purpose of emitting rays which penetrate fog for the guidance of aircraft; and whether similar experiments are being conducted in, or have been conducted in, this country, and with what results?
The experiments with the American type of beacon, which is claimed to be more portable than the existing type, are being closely watched by the Air Ministry. Exhaustive trials of the Neon beacon have already been carried out in this country, and, as the hon. and gallant Member is no doubt aware, one is in regular use as part of the night landing system at Croydon Aerodrome. It was installed as long ago as 1924, and was the first beacon of the kind to be used for purposes of aviation.
British Guiana (Memorandum)
asked the Undersecretary of State for the Colonies whether he has received a copy of the Memorandum prepared by the elected members of the combined Court of British Guiana in reply to the Report of the British Guiana Commission; and whether, in the light of this Memorandum, he is prepared to make a statement on the points in dispute?
The answer to the first part of the hon. Member's question is in the affirmative. I hope that the Secretary of State will shortly have an opportunity of discussing the Memorandum with the delegates of the elected members, and in the interval I should prefer not to make any statement on the questions at issue.
Can the right hon. Gentleman lay the Memorandum as a White Paper?
That will be considered in due course, but I could not undertake to lay it alone as a White Paper without the reply of certain people whose statements have been impugned in this document.
Post Office Savings Bank (J. G. Atmore)
asked the Post master-General whether his attention has been called to the case of John George Atmore, formerly a postmaster, who was dismissed from the Post Office service following a committal to prison for non payment of a maintenance order; arid whether, in view of later disclosures, the dismissal of Mr. Atmore will be reconsidered?
asked the Post master-General whether he has received representations from, the borough of Southend justices relating to the dismissal of a Post Office official and the resultant loss of pension; and whether, in view of these representations, he is prepared to reconsider the case?
I have received a communication from the clerk to the Southend-on-Sea justices concerning Mr. Atmore, who was an executive officer in the Savings Bank Department and was dismissed for unsatisfactory conduct over a prolonged period, culminating in his committal to prison for nonpayment of a maintenance order. I have carefully reconsidered his case, but can find no reason to modify the decision that he should be dismissed.
Naval Armaments (Submarines)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to the declaration of the United States Secretary of State, Mr. Kellogg, to the effect that his Government would be prepared to sign a treaty with all the other Powers of the world prohibiting the use of submarines entirely; and what reply he proposes to make on behalf of His Majesty's Government?
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether His Majesty's Government have expressed to the Government of the United States of America their concurrence in the proposal to agree to the general outlawry of submarines?
The views of His Majesty's Government in favour of the general abolition of submarines were made known at the Washington Conference of 1921 and repeated by my right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty at the Naval Conference held in Geneva last summer; they are, therefore, familiar to the United States Government. It is, of course, an essential condition, as indicated in Mr. Kellogg's declaration, that abolition must be universal.
May I ask the hon. Gentleman whether, in addition to making this statement in the House, any action is being taken with a view to negotiating this matter with the United States Government in the interests of commerce all over the world?
The declarations that our Government have made are perfectly well known to the United States Government. At the moment I do not know of any negotiations that are in progress.
Is it not desirable, when a very important declaration like this has been made, urbi et orbi, that we, who are so vitally interested, should indicate our concurrence with the views expressed?
I do not think we can go any further at present, but I have no doubt that at the Geneva Preparatory Conference we shall be perfectly ready to reaffirm what we have already said.
Then is this matter going to be brought up at Geneva at the end of this month in view of these developments in America?
I do not know whether it will or not, but if it is, we as a Government shall be perfectly ready to reaffirm what we have already stated on the subject.
But can we not take the initiative in the matter?
Did we not originally advocate it at Washington, and did not the Americans then refuse it?
I have already said that we did make that declaration at the Washington Conference and also at Geneva the other day.
Is it not also true that at Washington in 1919 the Government agreed to an Eight Hours Convention, but have refused to ratify it?
Fighting Forces (Meat Supplies)
55 and 65.
asked (1) the Secretary of State for Air approximately what extra cost would be involved in the Air Estimates by the provision of British meat on two days per week to men in the Air Force at home stations;
(2) the Secretary of State for War approximately what extra cost would be involved in Army Estimates by the provision of British meat for the forces stationed at home on two days per week?
I have been asked to reply. It is estimated that the extra cost of providing the Army and Royal Air Force at home with fresh meat on two days a week would be roughly £130,000 a year.
Can the hon. Member tell us approximately on what basis that estimate is arrived at—how much, per cwt. of meat, is paid to the foreigner?
No; I must have notice of that question.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty approximately what extra cost would be involved in the Naval Estimates by the provision of British meat on two days per week to naval forces stationed in home waters?
The extra cost of supplying meat killed in this country over meat im- ported from the Dominions would be about £40,000 per annum. There would also be practical difficulties in sea-going ships fitted with refrigerators which now carry supplies of frozen meat.
Franchise Bill
asked the Prime Minister whether it is the intention of the Government to introduce legislation this Session to disfranchise ex-service men who are in receipt of Poor Relief?
Perhaps the hon. Member will be good enough to await the introduction of the promised Franchise Bill.
Do I understand the Prime Minister to say that it has not yet been decided whether or not those who have fought for their country should be allowed to vote at the next election?
The only thing the hon. Member can understand is that it is not in accordance with precedents to divulge beforehand the contents of a Bill which is coming before Parliament.
Transport
Unclassified Roads, Rural Areas
asked the Minister of Transport what is the total mileage of scheduled unclassified roads in rural areas in England and Wales; and whether, in view of the agricultural distress, he will take steps to increase the mileage of further unclassified roads which may be claimed to be scheduled as such?
The total length of scheduled unclassified roads in rural areas in England and Wales is 41,177 miles. It is my policy to include in these schedules all roads in rural areas which can be said to possess traffic value, and if there are still unscheduled any such roads which the highway authorities consider are entitled to be added, I am both willing and anxious to consider their inclusion.
Toll Bridges
asked the Minister of Transport the number of toll bridges still existing in England and Wales; and if he is prepared to start negotiations for freeing the wooden toll bridge at Selby connecting the only main road between the East and West Ridings of Yorkshire?
Particulars obtained by my Department nearly four years ago showed that there were then 127 toll bridges existing in Great Britain. The origination of proposals for freeing particular toll bridges rests with the responsible highway authorities, and I am always prepared to consider applications for assistance from the Road Fund in the case of toll bridges on important roads.
Is it not a fact that these negotiations have been in progress between the two Ridings concerned and the urban district council for years and years past, and that no progress has been made, and is it not also a fact that the lack of progress is due to some extent to the fact that the grant from the Ministry of Transport is so very small?
The hon. Member must understand that I have to take the claims of other people into consideration, and that I cannot give the whole of the Road Fund to one particular bridge.
In view of the importance of this bridge, which is the only connection between the East and West Ridings and is on the main road, will the right hon. Gentleman not do something to hurry up the negotiations and get them settled?
Is it not a fact that a new bridge is in course of construction, which will make this present bridge absolutely unnecessary?
Has there been any reduction in the number of toll bridges since the figure given a few years ago?
Yes. There are Queensferry, Gainsborough, and others.
New Bridge, Drumchapel
asked the Minister of Transport if he is aware that the work of constructing the bridge over the canal at Drumchapel, on the Annies-land-Duntocher boulevard, has not yet been commenced, although it is now almost three years since the two unconnected parts of the boulevard were completed; and what steps he proposes to take to expedite the building of the bridge?
As I explained to my hon. and gallant Friend in answer to a question on 15th November last, the delay has been due to protracted negotiations between the Glasgow Corporation and the railway company who are the owners of the bridge. On 30th December last I approved the draft agreement between the parties, and I understand that tenders for the work have now been received and opened. I have every reason, therefore, to hope that the Glasgow Corporation will soon be in a position to start the work.
China
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any further steps have been taken to co-operate with America in obtaining a peaceful settlement in China?
There has been no change since my right hon. Friend answered the question put by the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Duckworth) on the 21st December last. His Majesty's Government still maintain close touch with the United States of America on all matters concerning their joint interests in China.
But no progress so far?
Abyssinia (Blue Nile Waters)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether negotiations are proceeding satisfactorily with the United States of America Government in regard to the construction of the dam and reservoir at Lake Tsana by American capital?
The right hon. Gentleman will recollect that, in answer to a supplementary question by my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle North (Sir N. Grattan-Doyle) on the 8th November last, my right hon. Friend stated that no issue has arisen between His Majesty's Government and the United States Government on this subject, and I do not conceive it possible that it should give rise to any difference of opinion. There has therefore been no occasion for any exchange of views between the two Governments in this matter. I would add that the object of the British Government is to get the barrage constructed and worked on sound engineering lines and on conditions satisfactory alike to the Government of Abyssinia and the Governments of the Sudan and Egypt, our primary interest being to secure this additional water for the Sudan.
And you do not mind whose capital it is as long as the thing is built?
Army of Occupation (Evacuation)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the fact that the Franco-German frontier has been guaranteed by the Locarno Treaty, His Majesty's Government will consider the question of evacuating British troops from the Rhineland at an early date?
There has been no question of the isolated withdrawal of the British troops which would not in my opinion be to anyone's advantage in present circumstances. A general evacuation of the Rhineland before the period laid down in the Treaty of Versailles can only be the result of an arrangement between the Powers whose troops are affected, on the one hand, and the German Government on the other. If such an arrangement be possible, it will be very welcome to His Majesty's Government. In this connection I would refer the right hon. Gentleman to the speeches with regard to the conditions on which an anticipated evacuation might take place which were recently delivered by the French and German Foreign Ministers before the French Senate and the Reichstag respectively, and which have been reported in the press.
Does not the maintenance of troops on the Rhine throw doubt on the value of the Locarno Treaties, and therefore diminish their value?
No, Sir, I do not agree with that at all.
Can the hon. Gentleman say whether any communications are taking place between our Foreign Office and the French Foreign Office with regard to the evacuation of the Rhine?
It is difficult to deal with this in supplementary replies, and I would ask the hon. Gentleman to put a question down.
Does the hon. Gentleman consider there is any real value in the continued occupation of the Rhineland by anybody at all?
Royal Navy (General Messing System)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, in view of the fact that chief and petty officers in shore establishments prefer to remain on the standard ration system, he will reconsider the decision for these senior ratings to come into the general messing system when they have no control over the expenditure of their messing allowance or in the selection of their food?
All the circumstances were fully considered before the decision in question was arrived at, and I cannot undertake to reconsider it.
Is it any use asking my hon. Friend if he will, either personally or officially, take the views of the people concerned?
I do not think that there is the slightest good in my accepting that suggestion, because the matter has been fully considered already.
Not by them.
Rubber Export Restrictions Scheme
( by Private Notice ) asked the Prime Minister if he is aware of the slump in the price of raw rubber resulting from the announcement that the Committee of Civil Research are to inquire into the operation land effects of the rubber export restrictions scheme, with a view to recommending to the Government its retention, modification or abolition; and if he will take steps to expedite such inquiry and the promulgation of Government action based on the Committee's Report, having regard to the violent fluctuations which are likely to occur in the commodity pending' such Report, and the hindance to those trades using raw rubber as a result of such fluctuation and the general dislocation of the rubber-producing industry in the interim period?
My hon. Friend will appreciate that the Committee will need to obtain a considerable amount of information before submitting its Report to the Government. Subject to this, he may rest assured that no time will be lost in the matter.
Can the Prime Minister say whether evidence will be taken in Malaya itself, having regard to the fact that the entire present prosperity of Malaya is dependent upon a reasonable economic level in the price of rubber being obtained?
I must ask for notice of any point of detail.
On a point of Order. Was there anything of national emergency and urgency in this question, or was it asked for the benefit of some manipulation of the Stock Exchange?
That is a matter for me to judge.
Mincing Lane would like very much to know whether the present Regulations are likely to obtain for the next 12 months, because the uncertainty to-day, caused by the information in the Press, has cost the market, on the 66,000 tons of rubber existing, £23 per ton loss; and the only thing to save the situation now is some certainty as to what will happen in the next 12 months.
A question of that kind must be put down to the Colonial Office.
Is there a Member for Mincing Lane in this House? Does the hon. Gentleman represent Mincing Lane?
The hon. and gallant Member represents a good deal besides Hull.
Business of the House
May I ask what business the Prime Minister proposes to take next week?
The Business will be as follows:
Monday, 13th February: Continuation of the Debate on the Address. The Labour party Amendment on unemployment will be disposed of at 7.30 p.m., and other Amendments considered.
Tuesday, 14th February: Continuation of the Debate on the Address. The Liberal party Amendment will be considered, and the Debate on the Address brought to a conclusion at 7.30 p.m., when an Address for the appointment of additional Judges will be moved.
Thursday, 16th February: Consideration of Supplementary Estimates in Committee and other Orders on the Paper.
Wednesday, 15th February, will be the first Private Members' Motion day—the first whole day under the new Rule.
The Supplementary Estimates will be circulated to Members To-morrow (Friday) morning.
May we take it that the 7.30 decision about Monday is final, because, as the Prime Minister knows, we are pressing for something else?
I am aware of that fact. I have been most anxious to give all the time that I can; and I have arranged, especially having regard to the fact that we spent an hour or two on another subject yesterday, to give half a day more to the Debate on the Address this year than has been given in any of the past four years. I think that this is an allocation of time which should be satisfactory to the majority of the House.
May I ask whether there is any understanding that no time will be given for debating any of the unofficial Amendments to the Address?
That must rest with Mr. Speaker.
Can we know the subjects of the Supplementary Estimates?
They will be in the Vote Office to-morrow morning, and, if it will be for the convenience of the House, I might be able to Say tomorrow which one will be taken on Thursday.
Does not the Prime Minister know which Departments have been overspending?
Orders of the Day
Memorial to Field-Marshal Earl Haig
Considered in Committee.
[Captain FITZROY in the Chair.]
Resolved,
"That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, praying that His Majesty will give directions that a monument be erected at the public charge to the memory of the late Field-Marshal Earl Haig, with an inscription expressing the admiration of this House for his illustrious military career and its gratitude for his devoted services to the State, and to assure His Majesty that this House will make good the expenses attending the same."—[ The Prime Minister ]
Resolution to be reported To-morrow.
King's Speech
Debate on the Address
[THIRD DAY.]
Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [
"That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, as followeth:
"MOST GBACIOUS SOVEREIGN,
We, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, in Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to Your Majesty for the Gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament."—[ Lieut.-Colonel Lambert Ward. ]
Question again proposed.
I beg to move, at the end of the Question, to add the words:
"But regret that no mention is made of measures designed to grapple with the pressing urgency of unemployment, especially in the coal and other basic industries, and its menacing effect on many areas where industrial enterprise is being crippled and local government is breaking down."
This Amendment is what it really is intended to be, namely, a very strong censure and condemnation of the policy of the present Government. Often have I heard it said on similar occasions that the Amendment which was being moved was fully justified. If all the circumstances be taken into consideration, I think there never has been a case where an Amendment of this character has been more completely warranted than is this one. It deals comprehensively with the question of unemployment, with, the direct and indirect effects of unemployment, effects which, unfortunately, have been so marked in some of our greatest industries and so marked in retarding industrial developments, and, finally, it deals with the damaging effect which the policy of the Government has had on the local government of our country, at any rate in many of the great industrial areas. We have always to recognise that there is a fundamental difference between those who sit opposite and ourselves with regard to the problem of unemployment. We on these benches have always held that unemployment is inherent in the present system of organisation of industry, and the big difference between us and those opposite is that the latter, whilst admitting that we have serious unemployment and recognising that there are serious moral, physical and mental consequences following prolonged unemployment, do not believe, or at any rate do not admit, that that unemployment is absolutely inevitable in, at any rate is absolutely inseparable from, the working of the existing system of private ownership.
There is unemployment in Russia as well.
4.0 p.m.
Some of our friends are always making the discovery that there is something in Russia. If I have to take up the Russian argument, I am quite prepared to do so, because it would assist and strengthen the point I wish to make. I believe I am right in saying that though they have unemployment in Russia, and though there is a form of public ownership, they do not repudiate their responsibilities to the victims of that unemployment. That is the point I wanted to make—the first point of difference between those who support the Government and those who sit on these benches. In this respect, I am not only speaking for myself, but I think I speak for the whole of the Labour party as represented in this House and the Labour movement in the country. Surely we are entitled to expect that Governments and parties who support the present system, and are prepared to give it so much scope in its working, should also be prepared to make adequate and satisfactory provision for the victims of that system. We have had probably the most prolonged spell of unemployment which this country has ever experienced. For the last seven years we have been confronted with this most tragic of all our domestic problems in a manner never before known in this country. Confronted as we are with all the involuntary poverty, the enforced destitution—it is not too strong a term to be applied—faced as? we are with the hardships, the privations, the misery, the sacrifice directly consequent upon unemployment—unemployment for which the victims themselves are in no way responsible, unemployment which, as I have already hinted, is the immediate, direct and inevitable consequence of the system under which we have to produce—one would have thought that in these days any Government that was prepared to champion and defend that system of production for private gain would make it its business to see that adequate and proper provision was made for the workless, who are workless through no fault of their own. But has that been the policy of this Government? I am prepared to say, and I think it can be very easily demonstrated, that during the past three years the present Government have spent a considerable amount of time in this House in bringing in Measures of legislation, or replying to criticisms of their own administration, which has had the direct effect of worsening the conditons of the great army of unemployed that we know to-day. Therefore, we are justified, and I think especially justified, in our attitude at the beginning of this fourth Session in the life of the present Government, who were not only pledged up to the hilt to deal with this problem, but have spoken very freely about the gravity of the unemployment situation.
Need I remind the House that when those opposite were the Opposition, the ink that placed the Labour Government in office was scarcely dry before they raised this very issue? To be accurate, I think we were not in office more than about a month, representing as we did but a fraction of the House, being in a considerable minority, when with the most undue haste they proceeded to castigate the minority Government, because it had failed in the few weeks it had been in office to provide what the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health called a "remedy." After all, we never disguised our position. We have always said what our remedy was, and we are prepared to apply that remedy immediately the people of this country give us the power to do so. The conspicuous difference between the present Government and ourselves is that they propound a remedy, and then run away from it, whereas we stand by the consequences of our position, and await that educational process which will enable the people of this country to say that there is only one course left open to them, and that is so to reorganise the system of production in this country that it will, at any rate, minimise the amount of unemployment, and make definitely sure that if we have to have unemployment, we are going to make satisfactory and adequate provision for those who are the innocent victims of any system that we may have in this country. But I look in vain in the King's Speech for any Measures promised to deal with this very serious issue. The nearest approach to any promise I find in this paragraph: local authorities to provide some form of work, some schemes of what we call relief work, they discourage that policy in every way possible, and, of course, if men cannot get work, if they are not permitted to work, if even the local authorities who represent the ratepayers are denied the right—and I claim that that is the position—to exercise their judgment, and to put forward these schemes upon which their own local unemployed might be engaged, we cannot wonder that local government, as we say in our Amendment, begins to break down, and that there is a demand, especially in our very necessitous areas, that some great change should be brought about which will enable them more easily to carry the serious burden imposed upon them. We on these benches believe, that if we could to-day relieve our local rates, and give local government a proper opportunity of functioning, as we think it ought to function in any democratic country, we would not only be strengthening local government, but we would be easing the industrial situation, and probably making an important contribution to industrial development. It seems to me that on this general question of unemployment, whatever line we take, we cannot persuade the Government to face up to their own obligations, and it is passing strange that they should be prepared to give such defence as they do of the present system, and not face the obligations which rest upon them.
The Amendment deals very definitely, also, with the situation in the mining industry, and this is the only basic industry to which I want to devote a minute or two. I hope that the representatives of engineering, iron and steel, shipbuilding and cotton, all of which are very seriously crippled at this moment—and, in my judgment, the position has been definitely affected by the policy of the present Government—I am hoping that representatives who know the ins and outs of all those great industries will, during the Debate in the next two or three days, deal very definitely with their own industries. But when we come to the question of coal, the issue has been so often debated in this House, the Members of which are drawn from all the different areas in the country, that it ought not to be necessary to paint a picture of the appalling conditions that are now prevailing in many of the coal areas in this country. One has only to visit, as I have been visiting during the Recess, Scotland, to find out the terrible conditions in the Lanarkshire area. One has only to visit Durham. It is a county which I have known for some 50 years, and I should say that never in the history of the Durham coalfields has there been anything to compare with what we find existing in that coalfield to-day. Finally, take the conditions in South Wales. South Wales, as those of us who have been associated with the organised workers' movement know, has passed through many vicissitudes, but I have no hesitation in saying that, with all those serious chapters in the history of the coalfields of South Wales, the present situation is absolutely unprecedented. We have there an appalling condition of affairs.
We have, in round figures, something like 1,000,000 unemployed in the country to-day, and one-fifth of the number is to be found in the coalfields of our country. Surely that is a terrible situation, and all the more terrible, because I believe that all those who have given any consideration to the problem at all are convinced—and I have not a shadow of doubt that right hon. Gentlemen opposite are convinced—that possibly 200,000, in fact 250,000 men may never again be required to follow their own occupation in the coalfields of this country. The question I want to ask is, What are the Government doing to deal with this distressing situation? I look at the King's Speech again, and I can find nothing at all approaching a recognition of the gravity of the position that obtains in the coalfields. I ask this question. It is nearly two years, I think, since the Samuel Commission gave its Report. Have the Government yet made up their mind whether they are prepared to apply all the proposals in that Report as they were submitted to them and the country?
It is true that the Government within the last two Sessions have passed a couple of Acts, one dealing with the coal industry, in a very modified way, in the shape of the Act of 1926, and the other the Eight Hours Act. What has been the effect in the case of the first Measure? It has been almost nugatory. What have been the results of the passing of the Act of 1926? What shall we say about conforming to the demands of the coalowners by the passing of the Eight Hours Act? I say conforming, because it seems to me the only conclusion you can come to, if you examine the policy of the Government during the last year or two with regard to the mining industry. That policy has been that the coalowners have obtained from the Government all they have asked for. What has been the effect of the passing of the Eight Hours Act? Has it reduced the number of the unemployed or has it brought more men into the industry? Has the extension of hours called in from the army of unemployed miners any percentage whatever? I think if this question is inquired into it will be found that this policy has had the very opposite effect. I am quite sure that I do not exaggerate the figure when I say that the direct result of the passing of the Eight Hours Act has been to increase the unemployed in the mining industry by 100,000 miners. That is the direct result of the passing of the Eight Hours Act. In view of the argument advanced when this Bill was before the House, it seems to me we are entitled to say to the Government: "Your duty to this industry, your duty to the 100,000 men who have been put out of employment as a direct result of the passing of the Eight Hours Act is that you should immediately repeal that Act. "Until that Act is repealed there will be very little progress made in the mining industry in the various areas of this country, where we should like to see restored the old normal position of good relations between the miners and their employers. As I examine the position which the Government have taken up, and bearing in mind their silence and inactivity during last year, it seems to me that the position of the Government, so far as mining is concerned, is summed up in the words of Browning, single constructive proposal for getting us out of the slough of despond into which they have allowed the mining industry to fall. All the Government seem to have done is to stand idly by and allow this great basic industry to get into ruin in many of the coalfields of the country. A Government that does that is not accepting, but shirking, its responsibilities. Is it too much to say that the Government have no policy of their own, and that they are unwilling to apply the policy found for them by their own Royal Commission If that be the position, then the country ought to know it. Are the Government not prepared to go in for unification of the coal industry, either under public ownership or any other system? If that be so, then they ought to tell us. If the Government are not prepared to transfer the coal industry from a coal-producing to a coal-utilising industry, then they should tell the House. If they are unprepared to go in for a system of the proper scientific marketing of coal, under which they would seek every avenue by which they could dispose of coal, then they ought to tell the House. What the Government ought not to be permitted to do is to pursue the policy of silence which has characterised their policy during the whole of the last Session of Parliament.
I would like, in summing up, to say what I conceive to be the present position. The King's Speech seems to me to have ignored entirely the real facts of the economic situation as we find them to-day. The real economic situation with which we are confronted is best measured by the national income which, in terms of purchasing power, stands to-day where it did in 1914, while our population has increased by 7 per cent. I have been reading some of the speeches of hon. Members opposite, and they seem to think that the economic situation is not so far wrong after all. At any rate, they are taking great consolation to themselves, not because the unemployed figures have been reduced, but because there has been an increase in the number of persons employed. This seems to have become a very important point. I have heard the same point made in speeches of several right hon. Gentlemen opposite. What is the deduction we have to make from that statement? Are they trying to impose upon the credulity of the man-in- the-street, and do they want him to believe that there are now more persons employed than was the case in 1924 or in 1914? Is that really dealing with the problem of unemployment? Do arguments of that kind in any way assist the industrial system of the country? The increase of population must go on year by year, and surely hon. Members opposite must find a better argument than that there has been an addition to the number of employed persons in the country.
I want to take that argument a point further. Supposing there were 10,000,000 more people employed. Is that going to assist the million unemployed who for one year, two years', and possibly three years have been living in enforced idleness, and have been unemployed through no fault of their own? I hope we shall hear no more on that point, because it is no answer to our argument. I hope we shall hear no more of the statement that things are all right now owing to the fact that we are employing 5,000,000 or 6,000,000 more people, because that in no way touches the problem of the million who are unemployed in this country today. I believe that the nation as a whole is in a worse position in this respect than it was in 1914. We have had some seven years of bad trade, and in that time we have spent £300,000,000 upon unemployment. I need not remind right hon. Gentlemen opposite that, with the exception of some eight or nine months, they have been associated with the Government during the whole of that seven years either directly or as part of the Coalition Government. Surely to go on spending such a colossal sum as I have mentioned cannot be called statesmanship, or even sound practical politics. Instead of going on spending a large sum of money in this manner, we should try to do something to find out how unemployment can be minimised, if not entirely removed. [An HON. MEMBER: "Safeguarding!"] You have tried that, and it has been like a drop in the ocean.
A good drop.
We have still 1,000,000 unemployed, and I am pleading for them. No matter how safeguarding may have assisted a few people, I am more concerned to know what the Government are doing. In the King's Speech the Government do not promise to do anything that is going substantially to affect the condition of the million unemployed we have to-day. May I remind hon. Members of another important figure? Not only have we spent £300,000,000 on the unemployed, but a full million are at present receiving outdoor relief under the Poor Law, and during the past seven years that method of administration of assistance has cost the country over £100,000,000. Surely, these are very cogent reasons why the Opposition should take up this subject. I think we should have been lacking in our duty if we had not faced the situation by moving such an Amendment as I have moved. We support this Amendment not only on account of the gravity of the situation caused by the army of unemployed, not because of the position of our local government but because the sessional programme to which this is an Amendment is the most disappointing programme which has been submitted to this House during recent years.
I have listened with the greatest interest to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Burnley (Mr. A. Henderson). Perhaps, to most of those who have been in this House for some years, the outstanding and rather astounding feature of his speech is the fact that he is finding fault with the Government for not having provided for the country an immediate remedy for the very grievous state of unemployment which exists, and yet has made no reference whatever to the fact that1 this Government, at any rate, has never said to the country at any time that it had such a remedy—[ Interruption ]—whereas, on the other hand, the party for which the right hon. Gentleman is speaking, as must be well within the recollection of almost every Member of the House, did have the temerity to put forward that statement, and, when they were challenged on the Floor of this" House to produce the remedy, failed dismally to do so. I admit at once that to mention that strange omission does not help to bring about a solution of the present problem, and I only do so for the purpose of pointing out, in the first place, that it is a little strange to find this denunciation of the Government coming from one of the leaders of a party which so definitely failed in carrying out the promises which they themselves put before the country.
I entirely agree, however, with what the right hon. Gentleman has said regarding the seriousness of the problem, and the urgent necessity that we should, quite irrespective of party or past, do everything in our power to bring about a better condition of affairs in our industries. I also entirely agree with him in every reference he made to the onerous burden upon the country in the matter of rating. That question, which, perhaps, is as urgent as any other, is one which, as the House knows, is mentioned in the Gracious Speech from the Throne, and is receiving, I understand, the very closest attention from the Government of the day. Although, however, the burden of rating has a very serious effect upon the prosperity of our industries, I think it will be admitted that even a 'considerable lightening of that burden will not immediately give us prosperity. It is one factor, and an important one, but I want to suggest to the House to-day that there have been in the last few years certain trends of change in industry which it is worth the while of the House seriously to consider. Unfortunately, the remarks that I desire to make on this subject are bound to some extent to raise preconceived or inherited ideas regarding Free Trade or Protection. But the real point that I want to put to the House is this: A few years ago it was perfectly clear that the Country decided that it would not at that time consider any question of a general tariff on imported manufactured goods; but I wonder whether the country to-day has been made acquainted with the actual results that have come about in those trades which it was possible to bring under some measure of Protecton—and I frankly admit that it is a measure of Protection—by means of the present Safeguarding Act. Those figures are extremely striking, and, although I am well aware that they have been put before the House, in one form or another, in times past, I trust that the House will allow me to refer to one or two of those facts again, because I think they are well worth repetition.
In the first place, I would like to take the safeguarded trades as a whole. Since 1925, the imports into this country, in the safeguarded trades alone, decreased by 28 per cent., while in the case of non-safeguarded trades the imports have increased by 11 per cent. That alone is very striking. It is perfectly true, as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Burnley has said, that safeguarding, unfortunately, only covers a very small number of trades. I will deal with that in a moment or two. It covers, however, a sufficient number of trades to make this illustration of imports and exports, as I shall show in a moment, extremely striking. Turning to the other side of the picture, exports in the safeguarded trades have increased by 11 per cent., while in the case of the non-safeguarded trades exports have decreased by 9 per cent. These seem to me to be extremely striking figures, and, when one adds the fact that employment in these safeguarded trades has increased by 10 per cent., whereas in all other trades taken together the increase has only been something like 5 per cent., I think that any fair-minded person who is prepared to judge of the results of safeguarding purely on the figures, and without any political bias, is bound to agree that at any rate there is a strong argument for considering the desirability of extending the Act.
I would like, if I may without wearying the House, just to give one or two detailed illustrations of the immense strides that have been possible. In the lace trade, in 1907, 42,000 people were employed. In 1925, that number had sunk to 20,000. The Safeguarding Act was applied in July, 1925, and at that time the amount of unemployment in the lace trade was something like 16 per cent. By 1927, the unemployment in the industry had dropped to 7 per cent., there again showing a directly improved result after the application of the Safeguarding Act; I will not put it any stronger than that.
Can the hon. Member give us the actual number of people employed in that trade to-day?
I have not that figure here; I have only the percentages, which I have given. The hon. Member can work it out quite easily. The percentage of unemployment was 16, and it is now 7.
You can tell anything by figures.
I am doing much better than that; I am allowing the hon. Member to make his own figures. I will now turn to the glove industry. In the case of leather gloves, in 1913, there were 9,300 workers employed, working 52 hours per week. In 1924, that figure had fallen to 7,000 workers, securing work on an average for only 40 hours per week. After the imposition of the Duty the number of workers increased again, and by the end of 1926 it was 8,150; and another point which I think is of interest is that by that time the prices of both home-made and imported leather gloves had fallen. I refrain from dealing with the motor industry, because the facts regarding it have already been given and are very well known, and they are, perhaps, the most striking illustration of the excellent results of Safeguarding Duties. We have had, from the largest motor manufacturers in this country, direct statements that the increased trade, increased exports and increased employment are in their opinion due to the Duty. There is only one point that I should like to make regarding the question of the Motor Duty, and that is to refer to the fall in prices. It is very striking how that fall of 22 per cent, has steadily come about since these Duties were imposed.
I now want to refer to one other industry, in which I am, politically at any rate, though only politically, very specially interested, namely, the carpet trade. The carpet trade, the seat of which is mainly in Kidderminster, though it also extends over Great Britain as a whole, is not safeguarded. I would like to give to the House some rather interesting figures regarding the imports of carpets into this country. In 1925, the imports into this country of carpets of all kinds, woollen and jute, were of the value of £5,700,000. For 1927 we have only 10 months' figures, but, on the basis of those 10 months, the imports during the year 1927 come to £8,409,000, or an increase of over £2,500,000. This is a trade which cannot be said to be in a bad way, that is to say, it is a trade which gives a great deal of employment, and to some extent is prosperous. It is a trade which is well known to be well managed and efficiently conducted. It is one of the most important trades in the Midlands, and it could give increased employment.
I noticed the other day that the President of the Kidderminster Chamber of Commerce, speaking on this subject, said —I am not quoting the exact words—that at least one-half of the carpets imported into this country could be made in Great Britain, and a large amount of added employment given thereby to the people of this country. Why is that not possible? It is not possible purely because the trade is not safeguarded. I do not know that it has ever applied, probably because it has no chance of success under the terms of the White Paper; at any rate, it has not yet been brought under the Safeguarding Act, and I suggest that one measure which the Government ought to take at once to help employment in this country is to widen immediately the scope of the Safeguarding Act. The facts and figures are available for the public to read and know the results that have come about in the past, and there is nothing in the law of the land to prevent its being promptly done. The Prime Minister, at the last Election, gave a pledge stating that the Conservative party were prepared to safeguard the industries of this country where they were affected by unfair competition.
I maintain that competition with the industries of this country is unfair whenever that competition comes from a country in which the standard of living is lower than it is here. It is, unfortunately, the fact that my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade, I have no doubt with all the authority of the Cabinet behind him, laid down, very shortly after the last Election, certain rules, which were afterwards embodied in a White Paper, which had the effect, in plain language, of throttling any applicant who wished to be brought under the Safeguarding Act unless his industry was on its last legs. The result is that we have the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Burnley saying here to-day, "Oh, your miserable little Safeguarding: Act!" I entirely agree with him that in operation, although not of necessity, it is a miserable little Act, and I suggest that the time has come when the Conservative party might take their courage in both hands and widen its scope. I say that quite frankly. If it was. necessary to move slowly in this matter; —and I think that perhaps it was in the early stages, because people had to be educated—we are now in a position, on the figures which I have given to the House, to put before the country perfectly clearly what the results are.
I want to take this question out of the region of party politics. I think we have come to the time when we are entitled to say to the country, "We have made certain experiments to show you what would happen, and these are the results; do not you think it is worth while that we should go a little further?" The position of the Safeguarding Acts to-day is, in fact, that we are locking the stable door after the steed has been stolen. It "has to be shown that the competition is unfair, and that, perhaps, is correct; according to the Prime Minister's pledge; "but it is necessary to go much further the-day, and to show that there is great unemployment in the industry. Why should that be so? We do not want only to safeguard an industry in which there is great unemployment. We want to safeguard an industry which may already be prosperous, if we are convinced that, if safeguarded from unfair competition, it would give much more employment. I suggest seriously to my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade that there is nothing whatever under the law as it exists to prevent his doing away with some of these restrictions, which make applications under the Safeguarding Act at the present moment practically impossible of success.
I do not want to raise now the wide cry of Protection, but if the facts regarding the past year or two in these safeguarded industries, together with the difficulties which the trades have in applying for help under the Act, were brought before the country, people would begin to realise at last that they cannot protect their standard of living unless they are prepared to protect at the same time the work of their hands. If we had any Free Trade at all things would be very different, but we have never had Free Trade. Free Trade does not consist in free imports without free exports. "Free Trade does not exist when everyone can throw anything over your garden wall and you cannot throw anything back. That is the position to-day, and I believe if this problem could be divorced from the unfortunate political cry of Free Trade, the workers would begin to realise at last that it is to their interest to protect the work of their hands, and without it they have no possibility of protecting the standard of living which every one of us wants to see maintained and improved.
The hon. Member who has just sat down, in dealing with the safeguarding of industry, mentioned gloves, motor cars and carpets. If he will go back 23 or 25 years he will find that dolls' eyes and pins formed part of the programme of the highly respected father of the Minister of Health, and if they were included here, he would have had the full programme of Mr. Joseph Chamberlain. The figures the hon. Member has submitted include something like 62,000 people who are employed in these industries, and two of them will be luxury industries so far as the production of wealth is concerned. I am going to deal with probably one of the most important industries in the country, which employs not 60,000 but over 1,000,000 people, and I want to show the effect of the reactionary policy of this Government on this industry so far as unemployment is concerned. During the Recess, I have been very busy making investigations and attending the annual board meetings of the South Wales steel trade, and the information I am going to place before the Government is first-hand information which I obtained from the employers and also from the Chairman of the Steel Board. In South Wales we have the steel works at Blaenavon which have been idle since 1920, we have the Cwmbran Steel Works which have been idle or partially idle for the last two years, we have a large part of Baldwin's works at Port Talbot which have been idle since 1925, we have the Briton Ferry Steel Works, which had been regularly employed for 25 years without a stop but have been idle since last July. Baldwin's works at Landore have been idle since the beginning of last year. There are a large number of furnaces and mills partly closed down in a large number of steel works in South Wales. The latest figures that have been issued by the Board of Trade are as follows: They are for the month of December. In the pig iron industry you have 14.1 per cent., in the heavy steel industry 22.7 per cent., and in the tin plate industry you have 13.1 per cent. That has been reduced considerably since October. In the tube making industry you have 14.6 per cent. At Briton Ferry the steel workers are a very large co-operative society, and I was told that out of their savings and their shares as the result of the stoppage since last July, they have spent £40,000, and I know that some of these men are absolutely destitute.
We have just heard a speech suggesting that safeguarding is a remedy for this unemployment. The Chairman of the South Wales Conciliation Board said there were two reasons for the unemployment and the closing down of works in South Wales. The first was the establishment of the gold standard. That, he said, was giving France and Belgium a bounty on the steel they could send into this country as the result of the advantage they had on the Exchange. The second point was the long hours and the low wages in France, Belgium and Germany. In Germany the steel workers work the full week-end. They work on Saturday and all Saturday night and finish at six o'clock on Sunday morning. It is then that their Sunday begins. At two o'clock they open the shops and sports and things begin. In South Wales and in Scotland and in England all the steel works finish at two o'clock on Saturday and the tin plate works finish at 12. Therefore the Germans, the Belgians and the French work two extra shifts. It took me 12 years to establish an eight-hour day by negotiating with the employers. I have attended Conferences with delegates from Germany, France and Belgium, and the trade unionists and their leaders in those countries want an eight hour day as well. If this Government had put the Washington Convention into operation, we should have had an eight-hour day in those countries and wages and cost of production would have increased, and that would give us an opportunity of competing against them, not only in this country but in neutral countries as well. Therefore, I put the blame for the unemployment in the steel trade and for the advantage that the Germans, the Belgians and the French have over us in the competitive market entirely on the Government for carrying out the policy of the Federation of British Industries in not coming to an agreement to put the Washington Hours Convention into operation.
5.0 p m.
There is a second point. About three weeks ago, Messrs. Richard Thomas and Co. competed with America for an order for 1,500,000 boxes of tinplates to be sent to Japan, and after negotiating for some days the Americans captured the order. There are two great combines in South Wales to-day, Baldwin's and Richard Thomas and Co., who own practically all the steel and tinplate works. Therefore if anyone should know it would be Richard Thomas and Co. The Americans beat them by 2d. a, box. Our production of tinplates in South Wales for the 12 months is something like 18,000,000 boxes, so that by losing that order we lost a month's work. I had to make, an investigation and I went to the heads of the departments and they said they lost this order not by paying national and Imperial taxation. It does not matter whether the Income Tax or Super-tax is 4s. or 10s. in the £ because Baldwin's and Richard Thomas and Co. have paid no profits on dividends for the last couple of years. They paid no national taxation, but they 5.0 p.m. were defeated on the order because a shilling a box had been imposed on the local rates. We hear a great cry about the reduction of taxation from the "Daily Mail "and the" Daily Mirror" and all these people. I can assure the Minister of Health that what is killing industry in South Wales to-day is local taxation on tinplates, on steel, and on sheets. In my own town, the town of Neath—I know something about it because I get the demand notes —the rate has been increased since 1914 by 200 per cent. I was paying 8s. in 1913–14, and to-day I am paying 24s. in the £. That means 3s. 7d. in the £ on each ton of steel produced in my district, and Is. Id. on every box of tinplates. Here we have the policy of the Government in not accepting the Washington Hours Convention. Here we have the policy of the Government as far as local rates are concerned. I blame the Government entirely for the position in which we are in South Wales to-day. Hon, Members may smile but I am quite serious about it. The President of the Board of Trade, is just having a nap over there. Will he kindly listen to me?
I have listened to every single word the hon. Member has uttered.
I thank you. The President of the Board of Trade was present at the World Economic Conference that was held at the Guildhall, I believe, some time ago. He opened the meeting there with a very concise and lucid address and if I had not read his previous speeches, I should have thought that he was an out-and-out free trader, and not a whole-hogger, as revealed by his speeches in this House and in other parts of the country. In this Economic Conference, I believe the first speaker was Professor Gilbert Murray. I am speaking from memory. I may be wrong. They tell me that he is a Liberal as well. [ Interruption ]I am going to say something and then we will see. He made a statement of this kind, that we had lost during the War 10,000,000 lives. The War had cost the belligerent countries something like £50,000,000,000. But at the World Economic Conference figures were submitted from the Labour Office showing that since the Armistice the population of the belligerent countries had increased by 1 per cent, and that the wealth-producing capacity of the belligerent countries had increased by 5 per cent. Yet we have more unemployment in belligerent countries to-day than we had in 1914. He gave three reasons for it. I am going to submit the three reasons to you. I do not know whether the Liberal party will support Professor Gilbert Murray. He said, in the first place, "You have sufficient production. All your storehouses, all your warehouses, all your railways, all the shops that face the street," said the Professor," are full to overflowing, but the people who produce have no money to buy. Therefore, you should increase wages, so that the people will be able to buy back what they produce." I support that statement. Whether the Liberal party do so or whether they do not I cannot say. There you have another suggestion in order to deal with this unemployment question.
The Government do not seem to be moving in one direction or the other. They seem to be standing still. In South Wales the sliding scale is going down. The purchasing power of the people is going down. Wages are going down. The comfort of the people is going down. I do not believe that we shall get any remedy until the Govern- ment go down as well. When they go down we shall be all right. The Government are taking the place of the Big Five. They are the Big Three. They have 1,000,000 unemployed, they have 1,000,000 paupers in the country, and £1,000,000 a day of interest to pay to the rich and the wealthy of the country. Therefore, until these things are remedied, we shall get no improvement so far as industry and unemployment are concerned. I have much pleasure in supporting the Amendment.
We have had the usual attack upon the policy of the Government and the usual claim that the policy of the party opposite would put things right. I would like to contrast for a few moments the policy of the party opposite with the policy, as I understand it, of the party to which I belong. There is no use in understating the difficulty of the problem. We have, I suppose, in England and Wales the most densely populated country in the world. If you put the peoples of the whole world into the United States of America that country would not be as densely populated as are England and Wales. I think that that brings home to anyone the difficulty of the problem before the country.
I will deal, firstly, with the one and only panacea of the party opposite, namely, nationalisation. Of course, they are entitled to go on preaching that I suppose, whether they believe it or whether they do not. But there is one fact in connection with that policy which, to my mind, cannot be emphasised too often and too strongly, and that is the admitted breakdown of their principles on the Continent. I will come to Russia in a moment; but apart from Russia, in six different countries since the War the Socialists have found themselves in absolute power, free to carry into effect the principles which they have preached for so many years. They very soon found that they knew how to destroy, but that they did not know how to build up, and they had for the first time to address their minds to it as a practical problem. In all these countries they appointed commissions or committees or something of that sort to report on the best method of nationalising their various industries. Germany, Bavaria, Austria, Norway, Czechoslovakia and Sweden. The result of course was a vast mass of evidence, of opinions and of reports, but there was unanimity really to an extraordinary extent, because, so far from condemning private enterprise, the condemnation was all the other way. In the result, not a single industry was nationalised or socialised in any of those countries.
Does the hon. and learned Member mean a Socialist majority of a Republican majority?
I mean a Socialist majority.
In what countries?
I have mentioned them—Germany, Austria, Sweden, Bavaria, Norway and Czechoslovakia.
Nothing of the kind.
On a point of Order. Is the Austrian Government a Socialist Government?
Not at the moment. I said that since the War there was for a time, in all those countries, a Socialist Government with power to put into practice the principles which they had preached.
Minority Government.
No, no minority Government. Their reports agreed in this. They all condemned State-run enterprises. If you take, for example, the report on the first German Commission of the 15th February, 1919, it spoke of the glaring incompetence of clumsy State organisation. It spoke of the rates of pay in comparison with private industry being positively ridiculous. It condemned the State management of the mines in Germany in the most scathing language. Take Mr. Sandier, of Sweden:
"Experience of State-owned enterprises has justified the suspicion that the management will be slack, bureaucratic and uneconomic. State enterprise in its popular common sense has disappeared."
Dr. Kroutsky in introducing the new programme of the German Socialist Democratic party in September, 1925, said:
"State undertakings with the powers and methods of bureaucracy as hitherto known have everywhere failed. It no longer comes into consideration for Socialisation."
Everywhere you have the same results—no step whatever in the direction of nationalising private enterprise, but very important steps taken in many directions for turning the State-run enterprises into a form of management analogous to that of private enterprise. As everybody knows, a large part of the mines in Germany were privately owned and a large part were State owned. Were the private mines interfered with? What happened was that the management of the State mines was thrown into a company in which the shares are in the hands partly of the Ministry of Commerce and partly of the Ministry of Finance. But it is to be run as if it were a private company by a board of four directors, experts, with a supervisory council. Since then facilities have been given for ordinary private people to invest their money in this company. So that the State may own and does own the majority of the shares but it is to be run as if it were a private enterprise. So with several of the War-time created State industries. You have the same thing in other countries. These facts, because they are facts, do emerge from this Continental experience that the whole tendency has been away from nationalisation of industry and the handing over of State-run undertakings to management analogous to that of private enterprise. What has emerged is something quite different from the principles advocated by hon. Gentlemen opposite. What has emerged is, not the destruction, but the maintenance of private enterprise and of self-management, with representation of the different interests involved. I believe the whole tendency of industry in Europe is in the direction of the maintenance of individual enterprise and of self-management but with fair representation of the interests concerned. What has been the result in Russia? In 1921 the failure of the new system in Russia had become manifest. There is no dispute about the figures. The production of cereals, for example, as compared with 1913 was down to 36 per cent.
Due to intervention.
The production of flax was down to 15 per cent; of tobacco to 4 per cent.; and of sugar beet to 4.5 per cent. It had almost disappeared. The production of pig iron was down to 3.8 per cent., and the production of coal was only 35 per cent. Taking the larger and medium industries together, production was down to 18 per cent. Cast steel was down to 4.6 per cent. Lenin, who was mainly responsible for this state of things, in October, 1921, made his great confession of failure and conceded the absolute necessity of going back to private enterprise. There are people who still worship Lenin, but why worship the Lenin of 1918 and not the Lenin of October, 1921? There are people who still preach Leninism, but it is not the Leninism of experience; it is the Leninism of 1918 not that of 1921 and 1922. Lenin's speech was followed by an enactment of the 18th June, 1922, which I have before me. I refer to two or three passages of it because it is an enactment actually setting up that which the party opposite would pull down. It begins by saying that for the purpose of establishing exact mutual relations between the State organisation and associations of private persons who take part in the development of the productive forces of the country, and for various other purposes, certain enactments are made and it proceeds to grant to all citizens whose legal capacity is not restricted the right to organise industrial and commercial undertakings on the territory of the Russian Republics. There is a right of ownership given in buildings—not ownership in land which is only to be held on long leases—and there is a right of ownership in movable property and in factories and works and commercial and industrial undertakings which may be in private possession; in all kinds of tools and means of production, products of agricultural production and industry, monetary capitals, articles of domestic life, and so on. It provided for the right to make contracts and partnerships and for the formation and registration of joint stock companies.
In other words, it restored as far as a law could restore them, the old rights of private enterprise and private property and that was done because Lenin himself admitted in the clearest language, and with the utmost frankness that he had been wrong, and that the restoration of the social structure which he had pulled down was essential. Is it possible for a party Jo ignore the experience of a continent? Can the party opposite go on preaching the wisdom of their panacea to the ignorant and ill-informed without saying at the same time, "We believe in this, but we are the only people in the world who do believe in it, and it is right to point out that the idea has been tried in Russia and has failed and that the people who tried it admit its failure. We, or people thinking like us, have been in power in six Continental countries; and when it came to the touch this Socialism has been proved a failure. "So much for the policy of hon. Members on the other side. It is the one and only panacea which I have heard suggested, and I have been listening to speeches in this House for three and a half years. Many have listened for a longer period, but I, during that time, have listened closely and have read with some patience the speeches of hon. Members opposite and I have never heard from them any suggestion except the suggestion of the nationalisation of industry beginning with the mines.
May I contrast that policy with that which I conceive to be the policy or part of the policy of my party? It seems to me that the wisdom of Conservatism has recognised that the way to recovery would be necessarily long and slow and recognised that there were three essentials. The first essential was industrial peace and to that point I shall come back later on. The second essential was the recognition of certain propositions which to me are elementary. One of these is that the growth of our Dominions must necessarily be followed by an increase in our export trade. There are figures, with which every schoolboy is familiar, showing that Australia and New Zealand take from us so much per head of their respective populations and we know that if the population of Australia were doubled most of our troubles would be at an end. Unemployment is due to the decrease in our export trade and, as I say, the growth of our Dominions will inevitably be followed by an increase in our export trade.
Our first step then was to introduce Imperial preference with the object of helping the growth of the Dominions. I am not going to labour this point because the argument seems conclusive, but I take two figures as indicating who was right and who was wrong on that matter. Take the wine industry. The importa- tion of wine from the Empire in 1925 was 1,294,000 gallons and last year it was 4,666,000 gallons. It has nearly multiplied by four and has made Australia our second source of supply, the first being Portugal. See what that has done for Australia. Can it be contended that that is not a help to Australia to support more people? In the case of tobacco the importation of Empire tobacco two years ago was only 19,000,000 lbs. and last year it was 41,000,000 lbs. We can realise what that has done for South Africa, and these figures illustrate what our policy is doing. It is a policy which every fair-minded person must admit will inevitably increase our export trade and to that extent will do something to increase employment.
The third of the ideals for which we stand is that of safeguarding. I am and always have been a Free Trader, and I tell the House quite frankly what my difficulty always has been. Industry in this country has to provide a certain standard of life for the workers. The country demands it, quite apart, from the workers and industry recognises it. That necessarily imposes on industry the handicap that it has to compete with people who do not recognise that obligation. To my mind the whole theory of Free Trade and the scientific principles on which it is based are upset the moment you begin to import restrictions of that kind. For my part I could not see how we were going to maintain that standard of life for the workers and at the same time maintain employment in this country unless something was done as a set-off to the lower standard of life of our competitors. I welcomed safeguarding as an experiment in the direction of Protection so that we could find out by experience who was right and who was wrong. Free Trade always said that Protection would send up prices, would not help employment and would injure the export trade. I welcomed safeguarding because I thought it gave a fair chance of putting the matter to the test and finding out who was right and who was wrong about these things.
We had some very interesting figures yesterday from the hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft). I have not heard them answered, and they seemed to prove conclusively that the effect of these duties has been to increase employment in the trades concerned and to reduce prices. They have in fact increased the export trade. I will give one set of figures which, as far as I know, have not been mentioned in this Debate. It applies to stockings, where we can compare like with like. As everybody knows, artificial silk and silk stockings are protected, whereas cotton and woollen stockings are not. What has been the result? Comparing two years ago with last year, the importation of the protected stockings has fallen by 54 per cent, and our exportation of these goods has increased 44 per cent. These are striking figures. Compare them with the figures in regard to cotton and woollen stockings. There, importation has increased 112 per cent, and exportation has decreased 19 per cent. I am, as I say, a Free Trader, and I am looking at the matter impartially, but I fail to see how one is, to get over those figures. They seem to; carry a considerable amount of conviction.
In my view, however, the experiment has not gone far enough to enable us to form a conclusive judgment. It has been on too small a scale, but I do not think it i's open to the party opposite to complain of that, because when each proposal was made it was opposed by them tooth and nail. It is not the fault of the Government or the Conservative party. They were always in this difficulty, that they had to recognise the two pledges which had been given, namely, the promise to accept the verdict of the country of 1923 and the promise to use safeguarding very diffidently. It seems to me that the Government are entitled now to say to the country, "We are entitled to go a little further and make sure that the results already apparent are sound and are not based upon insufficient material. I hope the inquiry which is going on regarding cotton stockings will result in further experiments being made.
I have indicated two directions in which it seems to me the policy of my party has definitely done, and is definitely doing, something to increase employment, and I want to say a word or two about industrial peace. Everybody will agree that from the beginning of the life of this Parliament that subject was put in the very forefront. I do not wish to hark back to the general strike, but it will be agreed that we did not get much encouragement there. At long last, however, there are welcome signs that the two sides are drifting together, they are not drifting apart, and I want to make a suggestion which I hope will be carefully considered. In Germany in 1920 a law was passed which is very well worth our careful study. It is a law making the creation of works' councils compulsory in every industrial undertaking in Germany. I have before me the Act, but I do not propose to weary the House by reading the details. The size of the councils depends on the number of men employed in the industry, and it includes the salaried as well as the wage earners, and their representation is to be in proportion to their numbers. But I should like to read the scope of their duties, and one has only to read this to be impressed with the idea behind these trade councils: cils in America has increased by leaps and bounds. In 1919 there were 225 of them, representing 391,000 workers. In 1924 there were 814, representing 1,177,000 workers, and I understand that the later figures give a total of nearly 2,000,000 workers who are represented. Professor Feis, who is a well-known authority in America, says:
I have been listening for the last three days to speeches from hon. Members on the other side. This Government was elected in 1924. It is now 1928, and we have 1,000,000 unemployed in the country, and 1,000,000 who are pauperised. The King's Speech holds out no hope of relief for any of them. It is amusing to hear hon. Members opposite attacking the Labour party. The Government is responsible to the nation, not the Opposition. It is the Government and the Prime Minister who are on their trial, not the Opposition. I regret that there is nothing in the King's Speech for the people I represent. To speak quite frankly, I want to help the people I represent, but there is nothing here which holds out any hope for them. There may be some relief, as hon. Members have said, in the passage referring to local burdens. I readily admit that, but I want to warn the Government that if any help given in relief of local burdens is met by corresponding reductions in prices, then our condition, instead of becoming better, is likely to become worse.
I have been amused by the speeches made by the two hon. Members who spoke from the Government Benches. The first hon. Member believes that the cure for all our ills is more tariffs; and the other that Free Trade is going to remove all our ills. Hon. Members opposite should obey their leader, or at any rate should meet in council beforehand and come to one definite opinion. If I was a Tariff Reformer and believed that it was the cure, no exigencies of a political nature would swerve me from that belief, and I would fight for it until I had converted the country. But lip service is neither honest to yourself nor to the country. If all the figures given by the hon. Member who spoke last are as correct as his statement about Socialist Republics, then I must ask hon. Members to consider them very carefully. He mentioned Austria as a Socialist Republic. I happen to have been in Austria, The Socialists are not in power there. They think Austria is likely to get more help in the way of credits through a non-Socialist party than through a Socialist party. Hon. Members opposite and their party have been helping Austria to the tune of £8,000,000. The Coalition Government gave them £50,000,000, and the present Prime Minister's Government gave them £30,000,000.
Hon. Members opposite may disabuse their minds about the state of Austria, or as to the Government which is in power. There is no Socialist Government there. There is a big Socialist party, but they prefer that the friends of hon. Members opposite should remain in power in Austria because they will get more help from the Government than if a Socialist Government was in power. I am not one of those who think that the system tried in Russia is suitable for every country, but it is speeches like those which we have listened to during the past two days which will do more than anything else to convert this country. An hon. Member gave figures concerning Russia up to 1921. That is worse than useless. It is not honest. The war ended in 1918, but we carried on war with Russia for nearly two years after that, in conjunction with other Powers. The revolution did not get on to its feet, and, if hon. Members propose to give figures about Russia, they should give them up to a much later date than 1921 if they want to be quite fair. I was amused at the quotation from Lenin which the hon. Member read. It was very interesting. It professed to give every citizen the same rights in the country. I wonder whether the hon. Member believes in it? Does his party believe in it?
We on this side of the House have no rights in this country. If we go off the road there is somebody looking for us. I went into a Court the other day on behalf of some poor people who had been served with notice to quit. A closing order had been issued. The poor people had no money and I went in order to say a word or two on their behalf. A member of the profession to which the hon. and learned Member who spoke last belongs, objected to my having the liberty of standing up for people who had no money with which to pay a lawyer to plead their case. If I had been doing it with any hope of gain I suppose I should be blacklegging an honourable profession. But these people had no money, and if you have no money you cannot get a lawyer. If they produce somebody who is not a lawyer to plead their case, then the wise man on the bench will protect the members of his own profession by insisting that a lawyer should get the job, and nobody else. The hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Wardlaw-Milne) has told us that we are exporting more carpets and taking in more motor cars. He gave these as being essential to the improvement of the country. I suggest that it shows that some people have more money than they require and that they are buying things which are not necessary to their existence. These carpets are not going into the mining areas or into the steel working areas. They are going to a class which has more money than they know what to do with.
That is all nonsense.
The hon. Gentleman's knowledge of the matter must be very limited. I suggest, too, that he has more money than he requires for getting along. Men and women in the mining areas are giving more useful service to the State than the hon. Member, yet it is as much as they can do to keep body and soul together. I want peace, but there must be a certain amount of fair play. I was in another country not far from here where the wage of the miners was 16s. a day. There are men in Great Britain, working in the bowels of the earth and getting less than half that amount. It was once stated that British coal is being sold in Germany at 22s. a ton, or four shillings a ton less than the price of German coal. That statement was challenged. I went to the trouble of getting the Government's own return and I found that the statement was, to some extent, incorrect. Instead of 4s. a ton less than German coal it should have been 5s. a ton less. The Germans were prohibited from selling coal at less than 27s. a ton, and British coal was being sold at 22s. a ton. What about the wages? The wages in the Ruhr are the equivalent of 8s. 10d. a day, and we are making it very difficult for that wage to be paid because of unfair competition.
Let me give an illustration. We send coal to another country at 5s. a ton less than the figure at which that country can produce it. That coal goes to the making of steel and iron. A contract for steel and iron comes into the world's market. What chance has the British manufacturer in competition with the foreign manufacturer, when the foreign manufacturer gets his coal for 5s. per ton less? At one time we thought that it required four tons of coal to produce one ton of steel. I notice in the "Times" to-day a statement that it requires 33 cwt. to 40 cwt. of coal to produce a ton of steel. There is a handicap of 10s. a ton against the British manufacturer, and when that manufacturer loses a contract there is unemployment both in the steel trade and the coal trade because we are not supplying the coal.
The hon. Member's argument turns upon the selling price in Germany of 22s. a ton. Does he suggest that the coal used in German steel works is costing 22s. a ton?
The hon. Member is in the trade and he will 'be able to tell us whether the Germans send the worst coal or the best coal or a medium coal to make steel. I suggest that they do not send any of their own coal so long as they can get British coal at 5s. a ton less. So long as they can get British coal, the Germans will be cute enough to take advantage of the handicap that we are imposing on ourselves. These things are not going to help us to any great extent. The people for whom we speak are asking for bread and the Government are offering a stone. One hon. Member has said that he wished the Government would take their courage in both hands and adopt Protection. What the Government are doing, in a time of crisis like this, is to give votes to some additional people in this country. They are taking their courage in their arms in that case. Apart from that question, I regret very much the attitude taken up by the Government, particularly the Prime Minister, the Minister of Health and the Secretary of State for Scotland.
During the five years of the War, men and women were attracted to industrial areas for war work. It was a natural thing. The result was that there was a fictitious population drafted into certain areas. When the War ended the Government made no attempt to deal with the situation. They simply left these people high and dry, to be supported by the local authorities in the areas. I have not at the moment the number of unemployed in the Parish of Bothwell, but the Minister of Labour knows quite well that we have thousands of miners and steel workers who are trying to get pay from the Employment Exchange. In addition to that the parish council is paying £400 a week to the men and women who have been cut adrift from the Employment Exchange. That process is likely to increase, and yet, so far as the Government are concerned, there is no hope held out to these people. I sincerely trust that something will be done to help these two trades. The King's Speech mentions agriculture. There is no mention of mining, and so far as that is concerned the only operative measure the Government have passed is one to increase the hours of work and thereby increase the number of idle men. The Government must do something to provide labour or other means of subsistence in these areas.
Do the Government think that they can maintain thousands of idle men in industrial areas year after year and not create trouble? I do not want to suggest that we are on the verge of civil war, tout I do say that if I were a miner employed in Northumberland, and if I were asked to take my chance of a full day's -work at only 7s. a day for probably two or three days a week, there would be nothing to deter me from taking other steps to try to improve my position. Men like my colleagues in this House have great difficulty in those areas. They are looked upon as being too slow. The men concerned maintain that something must be done. When we come to this House, we have to listen to speeches such as are made by hon. Members opposite. We are compared with Lenin and all the other fellows that hon. Members opposite think it a good thing to tell people about. Every nation is doing well but this nation, according to the last speaker. If Socialism has failed in other countries, what about private trade in this country? If Socialism is evil, surely private trade should be a good thing? I do not think there is any other country, having the same chances, that is in a worse position than ourselves. The present system stands condemned and the only hope for the people of this country is a change of the system.
One must sympathise with some of the observations that have fallen from the last speaker, in so far as we all want to find a practical remedy for unemployment. It is, however, scarcely the duty of a Government to find employment for the people. One of the duties of the party opposite is to cooperate with the Government in trying to get the best results, but all one hears from hon. Members on this question is a complaint that the Government do nothing, that the Government do not agree to the Washington Eight Hours Convention, and do not make any effort to solve unemployment. In answer to that it is important to remember that part of the trouble to-day, because of the large number of unemployed, is due to the industrial unrest of last year. You cannot expect to have such an upheaval and immediately it is over to employ an extra number of people or anything like the number that would have been employed if the upheaval had not taken place. There has been always a certain number of unemployed in this country. Even before the War there were unemployed and there will always be unemployed, whatever party is in power. The question is, what is the minimum number that there must be and how best can we employ those who are out of work? We are not going to do very much practical good by blaming each other. Rather should we try to get together and see how we can meet the difficulty in a practical way.
6.0 p.m.
One hears a great deal of criticism on the subject of Free Trade and Tariff Reform. I predict that when the Labour party get into power they will quickly bring in Tariff Reform, and for this reason: They will be forced to do it because they will want to protect the product of their labour. When we hear certain members of the Labour party discuss this question, it merely comes down very largely to the matter of Protection. I do not at this moment advocate Protection, but I do advocate the extension of safeguarding. I believe that there is an enormous benefit to be derived from increasing the operations of the Safeguarding of Industries Act, for the reason that if we are to pay higher wages, and I think high wages are desirable, because the higher the wages the higher the spending power, the only way we can do it is by running our factories at full pressure. It is an extraordinary fact that most of the trades that have come under the Safeguarding Act have been enabled to run their factories at high pressure, and the consequence has been a reduction in overhead charges and being placed in the position to meet competition. There can be no doubt that one of the reasons why in the motor industry high wages are paid and cars are sold at a lower price than before they came under the McKenna Duties, and before the War, is that certain Protection is given to them.
And more American cars are sold.
The hon. Member says that more American cars are sold. There are more British cars being sold in this country than ever before, and at a price cheaper than pre-War. One observation which I heard yesterday from a right hon. Gentleman opposite was that in his view the development of the distributive trade lay in the making of in- dustrial motor cars as separate from pleasure cars. In the case of pleasure cars he seemed to suggest that it was more of a crime than of industry to make and sell pleasure cars. It seems a very extraordinary view to take that because an industry happens to be catering for the pleasures of the people it should be considered a bad thing for the future of the country. If you take the case of America, where the motor industry is a very important one, you will find that the percentage of pleasure cars is enormously greater than the percentage of cars used for industrial purposes, and the country flourishes very well by the fact that they are enabled to sell such a large number of cars. It has been asked what the Government have done to help the unemployed or to find employment. The most practical step they have taken has been the safeguarding of industries and the giving of preference to the Colonies. The more preference we give the more goods we shall sell in the Colonies.
We hear criticism as regards the Washington Convention and because we have refused to ratify it. I hope that the Government will not ratify it until they are satisfied that the interpretation of that Convention will be the same in all countries. I am quite satisfied of one thing, that whatever Convention we sign in this country we shall carry it out both in letter and in spirit, and we shall not try to get out of it by any side door. I am not at all sure as the Convention is drawn that there are not many loopholes, and that we should be the sufferers and should not gain anything by signing such a Convention. Furthermore, the question of overtime is a very serious matter and requires to be looked into very carefully before we sign such a Convention. There are many difficulties to be considered from a practical point of view. It is all very well for hon. and right hon. Members opposite to say that we should sign such and such Conventions, but one must have regard to what the effect must be on industry generally. Whatever our difficulties may be, we have to live by and through industry, and to do all that we can to kill it instead of assisting it is a very great mistake.
I suggest to hon. Members opposite that it is essential in debating the ques- tion of unemployment to come along with practical suggestions instead of always saying that the Government are not doing this or they are not doing that. The criticism seems to be of a destructive character, when a constructive policy is what is required. It can, of course, be said that it is not the duty of an Opposition to suggest a constructive policy, but, on the other hand, they have gone up and down the country and their one panacea seems to be nationalisation. Their one great ideal seems to be the nationalisation of industry, so that industry can come under the control of the bureaucrats. Nearly every country where industry has been interfered with by the State that industry, instead of increasing, has decreased. You can follow that out in different parts of the world. We have the example of Australia as regards shipping. We have examples in many parts of the world where nationalisation has been tried and has not been successful. The day we attempt to nationalise the mines, however bad they may be and however much we may all deplore, as we do deplore, the large amount of unemployment, and the day we attempt to nationalise any industry in this country, we shall increase the unemployment doubly, compared with what it is to-day. I do not think there can be any doubt about that.
One hon. Member has stated that the reason Austria was not under a Socialist Government was because they would not get the money if they were. If that be so, how do hon. Members opposite think that they will get the money for the development of factories and for the development of industry in this country generally if they adopt a Socialist policy such as has been adumbrated by Members of the Opposition? It would stop the flow of capital for the development of industry. The only real, practical way is for those who understand their respective industries to get into touch with one another and try to understand the problems that they have to face. They will not be able to face them from the political point of view, but only from the practical point of view. We have in this House far too much politics and far too little business. What we want, if we are to solve, or to try to solve, this very difficult question, the problem of unemployment, is to treat it from the business aspect, and not from the political aspect. When one hears speeches from the Opposition in which they advocate this idea or something else, they do not seem to have in their minds, or, if they have, they do not give expression to it, that the problem has to be solved only in co-operation. It can never be solved either by the employer on the one hand or the employé on the other. I am quite sure that if a determination was shown by both sides to meet and discuss the problems that have to be faced, an enormous amount could be done to meet the great and serious difficulties with which we are confronted. We shall delay and delay until we come to that position.
Instead of blaming the Government for what they have done in the past, I think they are to be congratulated upon introducing the Safeguarding of Industries Act, and I hope they will, where necessary, broaden the scope of it, and that they will also continue to give preference to the Colonies. By these means I believe a great deal of employment will be found for the people. I am hopeful that the meetings which have taken place between some of the leaders of industry on the one hand and the leaders of labour on the other will lead to a practical result, because it is in the interests not only of one section of the State but of the State as a whole to see that a better feeling does exist and that we do not have these troubles in the future as in the past which have been the cause of so much unemployment. There is no good disguising the fact that we are suffering to-day from the effects of the industrial troubles which took place some months ago. The people abroad have been afraid to give their orders to this country. When I was travelling in different parts of the world, 12 months ago, I heard that they were using machinery which came from other parts of the world because at the time there was a strike in this country, and they did not order their machinery here. The only satisfaction that I heard expressed was that they were very pleased that they could get British machinery, because they found it so much better.
Was that last year?
It was when I was travelling 12 months ago and it occurred in Japan, and I heard that they were very pleased that they could get British machinery because it was so much more efficient than that which they were compelled to take from other countries for the time being. I only mention that to show that we have in this country the finest workpeople in the world, and it seems to me a crime that we cannot work together more for the benefit of the workpeople and the employers and so increase the industry of this country and the welfare of the country. Everything possible should be done in order that we can reach that desirable end.
I will not follow the last speaker along his line of argument, but I would like to tell him that this party has other remedies for unemployment than the nationalisation of mines. Three times this party has brought a Bill into this House within recent years proposing to deal with the problem of unemployment in a statesmanlike way. I support the Amendment, and I wish to say a few words about a deputation from South Wales which waited upon the Minister of Health on the 21st December last. That deputation was brought about through the intervention of all the local authorities of Glamorganshire and Monmouthshire for the purpose of getting assistance from the Ministry to relieve them from the large burdens which they had contracted as a result of unemployment. The deputation was by no means a party deputation. It was introduced by the hon. Member for Monmouth (Sir L. Forestier-Walker); it was supported by the hon. Members for Cardiff and by all the Labour Members representing South Wales and Monmouthshire.
The position of the area was brought before the right hon. Gentleman in the shape of a paper, upon which great pains had been spent, and the deputation had their views placed before the Minister by Alderman Arthur Jenkins, of the Monmouthshire County Council, Dr. Hughes, of Pontypridd, and the hon. Member for Aberdare (Mr. G. Hall), who sits on this side of the House. After spending nearly a whole hour in placing the case before the Minister, the only satisfaction that the deputation could get from him was that, if unemployment was a national problem, he was unable to discuss it, because it was a question for the Cabinet. He stated that his Department had done a great deal to assist necessitous- areas, and he referred to over £1,000,000 that had been lent to these areas. It is the lending of these loans to these necessitous areas for the purpose of relieving unemployment that has submerged and overwhelmed them with debt. The Bed-wellty Guardians owe over £1,000,000. The Abertillery Urban District Council have borrowed practically £100,000 for the purpose of finding work for the unemployed, and, in addition, they owe another £103,000 which they are unable to collect.
The interest upon these loans amounts to a staggering sum. The interest on the loans borrowed by the Bedwellty Guardians for the relief of unemployment amounts to about £1,000 a week. The Water Board owe another £1,000,000, which means another £1,000 a week, and the Abertillery authorities are so heavily in debt that it takes £200 a week to pay the interest upon their loans. The rateable value of these areas has gone down very considerably as a result of the depression in trade there. In Abertillery there is a population of 38,805, and the assessable value in 1920 was £156,049, whereas in 1927 it had dropped to £115,561. In the meantime the rates had increased by 136 per cent. The poor rate in Abertillery in 1927 amounted to 16s. 6d., and the general district rate to 9s. 8d., making a total of £l 6s. 2d.
I may say, in passing, that Abertillery has been selected for special reprobation by the Minister of Health, because it has not raised its rates high enough to meet its liabilities. As a result of this state of things in Abertillery, the Minister said he was dealing with the situation at the time. He has dealt with it, and the whole country knows that he has. It is an astonishing thing that the right hon. Gentleman, who has such a reputation for standing up for local government, is the very Minister who is using all his powers to destroy local government in these necessitous areas. The Minister has, in his wisdom, put conditions upon the authorities at Abertillery with reference to any further loans. The representatives of the ratepayers wanted a loan of £15,000 because they were unable to pay their expenses. They could not pay either workmen's wages or officials' salaries, and they sent the chairman of the council and the chair- man of the finance committee to see the Minister with a view to getting a further loan from him, but the Minister was adamant and refused to make this loan except upon the condition that the Abertillery local authority vested three men with full powers and made them responsible as a rating authority in Abertillery. The Council met when they received this bombshell from the Minister, and they were compelled, owing to their extreme poverty, to comply with the Minister's terms.
These three men were appointed, but what they have done the ratepayers have no idea. We have had no information from these men. We have seen certain reports in the Press, but we have had no definite information from the three men in question. I do not want to support anyone in any area who can pay rates and refuses to do so, because evidently those who pay the rates will have to pay the rates of the defaulters as well. I do not know what is the result of the appointment of these three men, but I venture to say that it will not touch the fringe of this question in Abertillery, and these pettifogging economies that the Minister is advocating will not materially alter the situation. What did these men do? The first thing they did when they were appointed was to reduce the state of lighting in the town to the state that you will find in a penal settlement. They put the lights down till it was darker in Abertillery than it had been even in wartime. The result was manifest very shortly. There are some very lonely roads in this locality, and there is a road known as the Old Road, that lies between Abertillery and Blaina, and as a result of this action, of the Minister and of these three men in having these lights put out in the town, a number of women were assaulted on that road, and the people were in a state of terror in that district.
Abertillery to-day is one of the most gloomy places that any person could possibly visit, and the lights of the town are a disgrace. The papers have been full of reports with reference to the condition of the area, and I should like to read one or two extracts from the public Press on the subject. On 2nd February the Chairman of the Council, Mr. W. Dunn, who is a member of the county council as well, and who is miners' agent for the area and understands exactly what he is talking about, said:
I could put before the House many cases with reference to the treatment of old people in this area. I was talking to a man one day who was 72 years of age, and he worked right up to six months ago, but now he cannot get employment, and his position is that he has 10s. a week old age pension, but cannot get any relief whatever from the guardians. That is typical of many cases, and that is what is meant when reference is made in this newspaper, from which I have quoted, to slow starvation. It is unworthy of this House to continue to treat the people of this country in the way in which they have been treated by the Minister of Health. I have a paper here which is not a Communist paper; it is not even a Labour paper, but a respectable paper. [ Laughter. ] I repeat, for the mirth of the House, that it is a respectable paper and that it will stand quotation. It says:
There was a gentleman in Cardiff the other day, Mr. Arthur Neal, who used to be Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport, and he said that it was disgraceful the way the Government were treating these areas, and that if it were taken up as a national problem the cost would be infinitesimal. If the Income Tax had been reduced 1s. 6d. instead of 2s., and the 6d. had been given to the relief of the necessitous areas, it would have saved the areas from the misery they are suffering at the present time. I support the Amendment; I am very glad that the party has placed it there. I do not know whether it is going to have any effect upon the Ministry or the Government. Scores of times this case has been put from this side of the House, but it has been put to callous and deaf ears. The responsibility lies with the Minister; the disease is following his orders all the way round faithfully. [ Laughter ]. It is no laughing matter. The County Council of Monmouth sent their medical officer here a few days ago, and he begged the Minister to come to the aid of the areas down there. He said that they had got many cases of small-pox, and that they had spent £20,000 in trying to deal with them, while another medical officer has said that the people of that area are being underfed. I do not envy the Minister his position. At any rate, humble as I am, I would rather have my place than his.
I do not recollect at any time during the nine years that I have been a Member of this House the principal Amendment to the Address moved by the Opposition to have been couched in terms so vague, or to have excited so little interest among the Members of the Opposition, as the one which is now before us. Last year, for instance, we had a much more lively Debate on a much clearer issue. Then the Government had recently sent out troops to China to protect British life and property there, but the Labour party disagreed with the action of the Government; they thought it was not necessary to protect British life and property in China. That was an issue which was so easily defined, that there was no difficulty presented to my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary in at once demolishing it, which he did so effectively that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) did not think it necessary to go into the Division Lobby at all. On this occasion the Opposition have gone back to a very old subject, one that has been with us, in fact, not only since the War, but long before the War. Perhaps it is because the subject is so old that for hours this afternoon the number of Members on the opposite Benches has been down to 16. [HON. MEMBER: "Look behind you!"] It is an Amendment of the Opposition we are discussing, not an Amendment of the Government, and it is a singular comment on their belief in the reality of the Amendment that they should not be able to call up a larger contingent of their Members to listen to the speeches.
The right hon. Gentleman who moved the Amendment made a rather unfortunate start. He began by laying it down with some majesty that unemployment was an inseparable result of the present capitalist system. Not unnaturally some of my hon. Friends brought him up short by asking him, "What about Russia?" It is not surprising that the right hon. Gentleman was taken a little aback, because it is, of course, notorious that in Russia, where hon. Members opposite will not say the system is the same as in this country, unemployment is rife, and the numbers are very much larger than they are here. Therefore, the right hon. Gentleman's proposition that unemployment is something which is inherent in, and the result of the capitalist system, was blown out of the water in almost the first sentence. Nor did he make matters better by trying to excuse what happened in Russia by saying that they did not try to repudiate their responsibility for the unemployed. To compare what is done for the unemployed, or for the poorer classes generally in this country, by our unemployment insurance, our health insurance, and our system of Poor Law relief, with the absolute neglect of the unemployed in Russia, is to make too great a tax upon the credulity of the House. It is not, I think, worth while to take seriously the common form of allegation that unemployment is entirely due to the action or inaction of the present Government. In a greater or less degree it is to be found in every industrial country in the world, and it depends upon circumstances and upon considerations which are generally worldwide in their application, and only a part of it can be controlled by any Government.
It is said that we are in a worse position to-day than in 1914. Suppose we are; is it to be thought that after a great war in which, as an hon. Member opposite said, something like £50,000,000,000 of capital was destroyed, in which so many millions of men lost their lives, in which such universal de- struction took place among those who had previously been our customers—is it to be supposed that, at the end of such a tremendous world cataclysm, we are to be found in the same condition as that in which we started? Are we to be blamed that we are only slowly making progress from the results of that great disaster? In the first instance, unemployment is due to the dislocation of industries right through Europe. The fact that many countries during the War, and for the purposes of the War, laid down machinery which was available for them after the War for other purposes, built up an amount of competition which never existed before and which our manufacturers had to meet afterwards, and with the destruction of capital that took place, it was out of the question that immediately after the War the reorganisation of these industries should take place in this country with thoroughness and rapidity.
Unemployment is inevitable after a war, and in that respect we have only followed the course of events which took place after the Great War of the early 19th century. But it has been aggravated —hon. Members must not shut their eyes to this—since the War by circumstances which in themselves have been to a large extent outside the control of particular Governments. Industrial disputes, which culminated in the great and prolonged stoppage of 1926—the effects of which are frequently not perceived by the combatants at the time when they are carrying on the fight—produce results which are beyond the scope and sphere of the particular industry that may be involved. That prolonged paralysis in the coal industry has not yet ceased to exert its baneful effect, not only on coal, but on many other industries. There is no reason why we should paint an altogether gloomy picture of the situation. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition seemed almost to resent that passage in the Gracious Speech which calls attention to the prospects of improving trade in other industries than certain basic industries which we all know to be still depressed. He spoke of the newer industries, in a manner which certainly surprised me, as being of little value. I gather from what he said that he thought it was the duty of this country to con- centrate its whole effort upon certain industries which he called
Come out of this debating society atmosphere.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Burnley (Mr. A. Henderson) asked, "What has the Government done to deal with the problem of unemployment?" I think we may fairly claim that by the safeguarding procedure which we have applied we have materially increased the numbers employed in these industries, and it is really no argument to say to us that they are only a drop in the bucket, because if we are to draw any logical conclusion from that observation it is really that we ought to increase the number of industries to which we apply this safeguarding process, that we should continue the process which has been so successful until it becomes more than a drop in the bucket, and really solves the unemployment problem. [ Interruption. ] I am glad to know that we shall have the support of the right hon. Gentleman. I have listened with great interest to a very thoughtful and useful speech, if I may say so, from my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Altrincham (Mr. Atkinson), who has evidently been struck by the remarkable success of the duties imposed under this procedure not merely in decreasing unemployment but actually in reducing prices to the consumer and enabling manufacturers to increase their exports. That is the first thing we have contributed towards solving the problem.
The right hon. Gentleman confined himself almost entirely to the coal industry, and, of course, it is a fact that the real difficulty with unemployment to-day is not a general one, it does not apply to the whole country, or to all industries. Our difficulty—and the difficulty of any Government in our position would be the same—is that unemployment is concentrated in certain particular portions of the country, which are the seat of the great basic industries, particularly of the coal and iron and steel industries. There we have a situation in which, as far as we can see, there is a permanent surplus of labour attached to those industries which cannot, at any rate in such time as we can look forward to, expect to find employment in those industries, and which therefore must either remain tied to the locality where there is no hope of finding work, or else the men must be enabled to transfer themselves and their craftsmanship to some other kind of industry.
I pause for one moment to meet the criticisms that were made by the right hon. Gentleman when he said that by passing the Eight Hours Act we had increased the number of unemployed in the coal industry by 100,000. I do not know on what he bases that calculation. [ Interruption. ] Then it is just one of those cases in which he has fallen into an obvious fallacy. I presume he says, "Unemployment in the coal industry is now greater than it was before the Eight Hours Act was passed, and therefore the difference is due to the Eight Hours Act." It does not follow. May I remind him of some figures which were given to this House last December by my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade, showing that the average cost of coal had been reduced by the operation of the Eight Hours Act by 2s. 8d. a ton? That has enabled our coalowners to sell a great deal more coal. It is quite absurd for the right hon. Gentleman to say that we have given the coalowners everything they want, as though they were making large profits out of this Eight Hours Act. They are not even now selling their coal at a profit, or, at any rate, in many cases they are not. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] I am not saying they are making a loss everywhere, I hope they are not, I wish they were not making a loss anywhere; but they are selling more coal, and they must be employing more men than they would be if they were still bound by the old hours and if their costs were 2s. 8d. a ton higher than they are. The point that really matters to the men is not what their nominal rate of wages is, but what their earnings are, what they are getting a week. If they were out of work they would be worse off than they are if, though working an hour longer than they used to do, they are earning a substantial wage.
Are you trying to argue that they are better off?
I am suggesting that they are better off by reason that more coal is being sold and more men are being employed.
Then I suggest that you do not know the facts, and that your facts are entirely wrong.
The hon. Member is entitled to his own opinion, but these are the facts. [ Interruption. ] It is easy for hon. Members to draw their own conclusions, but I say that from my point of view I cannot see how you can escape the conclusion that if more coal is sold as a result of lowered costs—[HON. MEMBEES: "Is it?"]—and those lower costs are due to the operation of the Eight Hours Act, then the men must be better off by reason of the Eight Hours Act.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman a question? I am sorry to interrupt him, but this argument is very important. Will the right hon. Gentleman give us the figures of exports for 1925 and for 1927? They will test the accuracy of his argument.
No, I have not got them. They are details which are rather Departmental ones, and I am not responsible for the particular Department which is concerned; but I do not think the facts can be disputed. My right hon. Friend gave the facts at full length, and also the figures, in December, and I think the hon. Member questioned them, but that does not make the figures incorrect.
I did not question them.
If the hon. Member did not question them, then I cannot understand why he is questioning them now.
The right hon. Gentleman used that argument to justify his case that the extra export of coal in 1927 over 1925 had produced a certain volume of work which kept more people in employment than would otherwise have been the case. We refute that argument, because the extra exports, which only amounted to 1,200,000 tons, had been given away, and the other 41,800,000 tons had been sold at more than £3,000,000 less.
I cannot see what difference that makes. The point is whether there is more, or whether there is less, employment owing to the operation of the Eight Hours Act, and I say that if more coal is produced in consequence of the Eight Hours Act, that must mean more employment. The hon. Member for Pontypool (Mr. Griffiths), who spoke about the iron and steel trade, said one of the principal reasons for the depression in the iron and steel trade was the foreign competition from countries where the hours worked were longer and where the wages were lower. He went on to say that the unemployment was therefore the fault of the Government, because they had not ratified the Washington Hours Convention. There, again, it appears to me that the hon. Member had not kept in mind the real facts of the situation. He suggested that the Government had not ratified the Washington Convention in the interests of the Federation of British Industries. The Federation of British Industries, or the manufacturers of this country represented by that or any other body, do not care about the eight hours day for themselves. They are ready to stand competition with any country in the world if the conditions are the same. As a former manufacturer myself, I am certain they are ready at any time to reduce hours if everybody else does the same, but what they are not willing to do is to reduce their hours if other countries are not going to reduce them.
Other countries are willing.
If the Government could be satisfied, if they could satisfy the manufacturers—[HON. MEMBERS: "That is different!"]—manufacturers have only one interest, and that is that the conditions shall be the same. [HON. MEMBERS: "You are hedging!"] No, I am not hedging; I am saying the same thing. If the Government could satisfy themselves—I put it that way—that the Convention would result in the same conditions being observed by foreign countries as our manufacturers are compelled to observe in this country, there would be no reason for not ratifying. Our object in the negotiations with other countries is to get all conditions alike. It would not be to the interests not merely of manufacturers, it would not be to the interests of the workpeople, that we should tie our hands, or have our hands tied in this way, by conditions which were not being observed abroad. Anyone who has really studied this subject knows that although nominally it may appear that the hours are the same in some of the Continental countries as in this country, in actual practice and fact they are not the same. We have got to have safeguards that they shall be the same before we consent to tie the hands of our people.
If the hours were the same in other countries, and local rates were different, were much higher in this country as compared with other countries, would we not still be handicapped?
7.0 p.m.
We would still be handicapped, no doubt, but this particular Convention deals with hours only. The right hon. Gentleman complained that in the Gracious Speech there was no promise that we were going to do anything for the unemployed. He confuses promise and performance. We may not promise so much as other Governments would do in our place, but we are, nevertheless, at the same time performing. He said we ought to concentrate on certain industries. We are concentrating our attention on those particular industries, and it is perfectly clear that, if we are to be successful in getting the miners, who will no longer have an opportunity of occupation as miners, to move from the places where they now are to some other parts where there may be work for them, we have got to try to help them to adapt themselves to fresh trades. This is a matter to which we are giving very careful attention, and in which we are taking steps which we hope will be highly successful. We have got under the Ministry of Labour four methods now of providing training for the people in the distressed areas. We have, first of all, training for juveniles; then we have training for single men for employment at home; thirdly, we have training for single men who may desire to go overseas; and, fourthly, we have training for women who may be prepared to enter domestic service.
With regard to the juvenile centres, which in some ways are the most satisfactory of all, because, naturally, the juveniles are the most adaptable of all, a whole network of centres exists—Durham, Northumberland and South Wales —and we hope that when the scheme is completed, which it will be in a short time, there will be a centre available for every unemployed boy in these hard-hit areas who wants to attend. We are giving them practical instruction in manual work, in carpentry, in elementary metal work, and a certain amount of physical exercise. To those centres we hope to get insured boys of 16 to 18, uninsured boys over 16, and we hope to get a certain number of boys under 16. With regard to the training of young men for employment at home, there are three centres—Wallsend, Birmingham and Dudley. At the last one, at Dudley, there are already a considerable number of unemployed miners—I cannot give the exact number. There will be one other centre opened very soon at Bristol. In those centres, training is given on work shop lines. The idea is to accustom these men who are miners to workshop life. They clock in and clock out; there is a certain amount of discipline of the same sort they would find in a workshop with the idea that when they go in they will not find the atmosphere strange. They are given instruction in bricklaying, plastering and painting. [ Interruption. ] I hear an hon. Member say, "For six months." He infers that that is not enough. He may be interested to know that of those who completed a long or short course, 92 per cent, have been placed in employment. [HON. MEMBERS: "How many?"] 4,000. I contend that that is encouraging. The trades in which they have been placed comprise a great variety—building trades, engineering, cycle and motor trades—
Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us the trades in which they were placed in which there is not already unemployment?
The right hon. Gentleman is, I presume, intending to suggest that the work we are doing in placing these men is not really relieving unemployment, because it is merely giving them places which would otherwise go to other men. That may be; I do not dispute that. I say that the men already attached to those trades are not as badly off as these men. They have a far greater choice of employment than a man who is bred up as a miner, who has hardly ever left the Welsh village where he has been occupied as a miner, and whom we are for the first time bringing out into the world, getting him in touch with the world, and putting him in a position to earn his own living. We are setting up these centres with a view to relieving to a great extent the very black spots where the worst unemployment is concentrated. We cannot guarantee that everybody who goes there is a miner, but we do our best to get them to go and we consider that every miner who goes there is a relief to the urgency of the situation.
Does the right hon. Gentleman suggest that these centres will enable miners all over these distressed areas to attend? If so, I would ask him to read the OFFICIAL REPORT to-morrow, for I have an answer from the Minister of Labour to-day which does not bear out what the right hon. Gentleman says.
Hon. Members must not read into what I have said more than I have said. I am saying what we are doing for unemployment in general and in particular for certain places where unemployment is particularly bad. I did not say those places will be devoted solely to miners, but I hope they will enable a certain number of miners to get employment. The third class I mentioned were the training centres for young men who are going overseas. There are two of these, one at Brandon, in Norfolk, and the other in Somerset. During this year it is expected that they will be able to give training to about 2,000 single men for life overseas. A few miners have applied, and it is hoped more will come in. Upwards of 1,000 men have already completed their course at one or other of these two centres, and all but 12 of them have gone overseas. Finally, there is the work that is being done in training women for domestic service. While I do not put that in the same category of importance as the others, I think it shows that we have not lost sight of that aspect of the problem, and that we are trying to do something for the women as well as the men. I hope the House has not forgotten the statement made by my right hon. Friend before the House separated, that the Government had set up a special Central Unemployment Board to deal with difficulties particularly in the black spots. It is, of course, too soon to say what that Board may do, but the fact that we have appointed three distinguished and competent men to give their special attention to those spots shows that the Government cannot be accused of having left them out of account, or failed to realise what their responsibilities are.
Now I would like to say a few words on the subject of local government. The right hon. Gentleman did not touch upon that point. He left it to his hon. Friend behind him, and he has given us a lamentable picture of the state of affairs in Abertillery. I recall the fact that a deputation came to me from South Wales some time ago, in the course of which I was obliged to unmask the procedure of the local council in Abertillery and in certain other parts of South Wales. I was able then to express my very great satisfaction with the courage and resource that had been shown by a number of these small local authorities in South Wales which, in the face of very great and serious difficulties and hardships, had stood up to the position, had realised their duty and had made serious and successful efforts to reduce their expenditure until it should be within their means. I reproached the representatives from Abertillery with the fact that they had not made similar efforts, that they had not collected the rates which they levied and that, instead of seriously setting themselves to put their house in order, they had actually reduced their rates, although the demands from the Poor Law guardians had increased. What was the result? The hon. Member says they got very little satisfaction from the Minister of Health. I am pleased to say, on the other hand, that the Minister of Health got considerable satisfaction from the deputation, because afterwards conversations took place between some of the members of the deputation and the officers of my Department which had very considerable and fruitful effects.
To say that local government in South Wales has broken down is really a libel on South Wales. It would have broken down if they had not been able to meet their liabilities, if they had not gone on increasing the difference between their expenditure and their income in the wrong direction. Indeed, it might be pointed out that they are proud people in South Wales, and I have here some particulars which show that in some of the hardest hit districts, by carefully considering the recommendations that have been made by the Ministry of Health, by taking pains to cut down expenditure where it can be cut down, there are places like Pontypridd, Rhondda and Blaina which in the last half year have succeeded in reducing their expenditure below the income for the Half year. I have very little doubt that the next half year will be better, because the rateable value of those areas has been affected by the temporary stoppage of the mines, and when work is resumed there will be a certain amount of relief.
Does the right hon. Gentleman deny the statement that, as a matter of fact, there are several local authorities in South Wales against whom he has had no sort of complaint, and who are now complaining that they cannot make both ends meet?
I am not making any accusation against local authorities in South Wales generally. I recognise the difficult task which they have to perform, and I am anxious to pay my tribute to the efforts which they have made. In all cases where the administration is being economically carried on, I am endeavouring to help the local authorities. I want to refer to the subject of Abertillery. What is going on there is certainly interesting. In that case I had to say that I should no longer continue to lend money to them in order to meet their current expenditure unless they could satisfy me that they were taking all necessary steps to reduce their expenditure and collect the rates. I suggested to them that one way in which they might make some improvement would be by appointing a committee of their own number to check and watch expenditure, and that they might in that way bring about economy. That council is not a council of nominees of the Minister of Health; I think the majority of them are Socialists, and, as far as I know, there are few belonging to other parties on that council. Certainly the Chairman is a Socialist; he came to the Ministry of Health and, after a talk, the council adopted the suggestion made by the Ministry of Health and appointed a committee of three members, consisting of the chairman and two other members of the council, one of whom was a Socialist and the other was independent. They have been appointed as a committee to watch the expenditure, and they have been given considerable powers by the local council.
What I want the House to realise is, that these are not like the guardians of Bedwellty. They are not appointed by the Minister of Health, but by the local council. They are not breaking down local government, but they are main- taining it. Hon. Members will recall that this is a Socialist committee. Nevertheless, it is acting with great courage and vigour, and I am glad to say with success. They found, upon beginning to exercise the powers which were handed over to them, that they were able to reduce the expenditure of the council by an amount equivalent to a rate of 5d. in the £. No doubt that gives rise to a certain amount of unpopularity, but, at any rate, it is going a long way to meet the suggestions which I have made to them. Further than that, they have done what, apparently, the council never thought of doing before, that is, they have found some people who were not paying their rates. Those non-payers have been brought into Court, with the result, I am told, that the money is now coming in like water. As a matter of fact, they are now following in the footsteps of other local authorities in South Wales, they are bringing down their expenditure and increasing their income, and I have every reason to believe that more Socialist administration of that kind will result in a complete reversal of the things which have caused hon. Members opposite so much distress.
It is not a fact that local government is breaking down. It is true that local government has been placed under a severe strain, but I think it is going to come through. It is perfectly true that the effect of such conditions as those which exist in South Wales has produced a vicious circle to which attention has been called so often in this House. Unemployment means increased local charges, and increased local charges mean a further handicap to the struggling industries of the district. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why do you not shift them?"] I would refer the hon. Member who has interrupted me to certain passages in the Gracious Speech from which he may gather that this matter has attracted the anxious attention of the Government.
We have no clue as to what is going to happen.
I suggest that the hon. Member should "wait and see." It is obvious that any relief to local rates which involves the shifting of the burden from the shoulders of the ratepayers to the shoulders of the taxpayers cannot be confined to one or two areas in the country, and anything of that kind must be part of a general and far-reaching scheme. The time has not yet arrived when we can make any proposition to the Members of this House, but to those who have so often taken part in debates on necessitous areas it will at least come as a message of peace to know that we have not ruled out the possibility of some relief of this kind coming within the realm of practical politics.
That does not appear in the King's Speech.
The right hon. and gallant Gentleman will see that this is not the moment to expect a complete exposition of a scheme of this kind, and it is not usual in debates on the Address to expect Ministers to expound the details of such schemes. In discussing this subject I cannot help referring for one moment to the loss of one of our colleagues who was an almost invariable attendant when the question of necessitous areas was being discussed. I came to the House at the same time as Mr. Trevelyan Thomson, and I sat side by side with him for a long time. I had many conversations with him in those days, and although in later years, naturally, we had not been so intimately together, yet I have no hesitation in saying that there was no one of greater sincerity, earnestness, and single-minded-ness in the views which he expressed and for whom therefore I had greater respect.
May I associate myself with the graceful tribute paid to our late colleague who has just passed away? I am sure I speak for the whole of my colleagues when I say that we fully reciprocate all that the Minister of Health has said on this matter. We deeply regret the Ios3 inflicted upon. Mr. Trevelyan Thomson's constituency and upon this House by his early decease, because it has brought to a close a life which we fully expected would have lasted a little longer and which would have been devoted to the service of his constituency and of his country.
The Minister of Health has told us that the Government was a Government not of promises but of performances. I should like to compliment the right hon. Gentleman upon the adroit performance which he has just achieved. It is very rare in this. House that I have witnessed any speaker make so little go such a long way as the right hon. Gentleman has done on this occasion. The many tiny attempts which the Government have made to deal with these problems have been very lavishly spread out, and the Minister of Health has made them appear as though the Government were doing something upon a gigantic scale. The right hon. Gentleman's method of dealing with the question of the unemployed miners, first giving them a few weeks' employment and then turning them out to hold their own in a market which is already stocked with skilled labour, seems to me to be a rather cruel joke. One knows what the fate of those men is likely to be when they come into the labour market, where competition will be keen on the slightest indication of bad trade or when the difficulties of industry become in any way accentuated.
I would like to say a word or two about the question which the right hon. Gentleman has raised in regard to South Wales. It is perfectly true that he is compelling various authorities in South Wales to bring about some change in their method of administration, but it appears to me that most of the changes or improvements upon which he has dwelt this afternoon, particularly in regard to places like Blaina and Abertillery and the other districts which he says are battling so manfully with their difficulties, are being brought about at the terrible expense of suffering on the part of thousands of individuals who are being compelled to pay the price exacted by the Government. I cannot understand the attitude of the Government in regard to this matter. There is no dispute as to the terrible position in which these authorities are placed, or as to the terrible sufferings of the individuals concerned. From my knowledge of the conditions in my own constituency, I can testify to the frightful sufferings that these people are going through, the dashing to the ground of the hopes that they once had, and the destruction of the results of the strivings of a lifetime. All these things are very terrible, and nothing that I can say can add to what has already been said by my hon. Friend the Member for Abertillery (Mr. Barker) in describing the terrible condition that exists in the homes and is affecting the lives of so many people. I cannot under- stand why the Minister will insist that these terrible conditions shall be made worse in order to save the Government from doing what I believe to be their bounden duty.
The Government are treating the authorities in these distressed areas worse than they have treated their foreign debtors. If South Wales had been Italy it would have been forgiven practically the whole of its debt. If it had been appealing to the Government as a foreign Government for a remission of its debt, some measure of relief would have been granted, and the British taxpayer would have been called upon to pay very heavily for that relief; but here in these areas, where our own countrymen are holding out their hands, where they are asking for mere maintenance and mere subsistence, where local authorities are breaking down under the strain, despite all that the Minister may say, the best that the Government can do is to ask them metaphorically to tighten their belts and go on suffering still more, hanging on in grim desperation in the hope that sooner or later the tide will turn in their favour.
It seems to me that as regards the question of unemployment, the Government have reached the end of their resources. They have not made up their minds what is the nature of the problem that confronts this country in regard to unemployment. I have heard the Prime Minister declare on more than one occasion that, in view of the changed conditions in our modern industry, we had to determine in our own minds whether or not this problem of unemployment had changed from an epidemic character to an endemic character, whether the time of successive trade cycles, with their periods of good trade and of bad trade, was not passing away, and we were entering upon an endemic period in which a large volume of unemployment was going to be a permanent characteristic of our modern industry. In view of the Unemployment Insurance Act of last year, I take it that the Government have come to some sort of conclusion that at any rate we are to have a tremendous volume of unemployment in this country of a rather more permanent character than has been the case before. They appear to assume that we are going to have about 6 per cent, of unemployment, and that this is a period of bad trade; but there is no more ground for assuming that than there is for my assuming that this is a period of good trade. While the Government assume that we may move from 8 per cent, to 6 per cent., it is possible that we may move from the 8 or 9 per cent, of unemployment that we have now to 12 per cent., and, so far as the Government know, there is, on the facts of the case, as much reason for my assumption as for theirs.
During the last Election, when the present Government were returned, the Prime Minister made a speech at, I think, Sheffield—I am speaking from memory—and, in referring to the problem of unemployment, said that it would be the duty of the Conservative party to deal with this problem, and that if they failed to deal with it in an effective manner the Conservative party would be false to its trust. I am going to charge the Government to-night with having been false to their trust, in that they have not dealt with unemployment, that they have failed entirely to deal with it, that the volume of unemployment is greater now than it was when they came into office in 1924, and that they have done nothing whatever to make it any less in volume or intensity. Indeed, as has been pointed out in this House on many occasions, the policy of the Government has itself been responsible for the difficulties which confront us at this moment. Time and again we hear from the Government benches the taunt that the unemployment of 1927 arose out of the dispute of 1926; but the dispute of 1926 arose out of the Government's mismanagement of affairs in 1925, and in 1926 as well. [ Interruption. ] If the Government mismanaged anything at all, they mismanaged affairs in April, 1926, and, but for their gross mismanagement, the dispute which followed in May of that year might never have occurred at all. It was when the Prime Minister of this country made himself the mouthpiece of an incapable set of employers that the trouble was precipitated.
To talk so constantly about the industrial trouble of 1926 as though it were something that stood by itself, had no causes of its own, and had nothing to do with previous policies, seems to me to be particularly shortsighted. I believe it was the President of the Board of Trade who, speaking a night or two ago, made the boast that there were a million more people employed now than there were five years ago. I think I am interpreting his remarks correctly. Five years ago we had 2,500,000 people unemployed. That amount of unemployment had been brought about by the Government's precipitate acceptance of the bankers' policy of wholesale deflation in 1920, which was the beginning of the unemployment crisis. It was due entirely to the pursuit by the Government at that time of a bankers' policy as against a merchants' and manufacturers' policy, and that, very largely, has brought us to the position in which we are to-day. They followed that by the restoration of the gold standard which, again, hit our trade badly, as has been pointed out by my hon. Friends on these benches; the coal and the iron and steel trades, in particular, were hit by it. All these things led up to the troubles of 1926, out of which, we are told, our present troubles arise.
The Government have to make up their mind that we are living in an entirely different world from that in which we were living in 1912 and 1913. Not very long ago, an hon. Member told us that he had been visiting Japan, and that Japan would like to have machines from us, but could not get them. Japan, however, has had a good deal of machinery from us, and other countries have had a good deal of machinery from us. They have begun to learn to use those machines, and, consequently, where they were once our customers, they have now become our competitors. While British capitalism a few years ago was operating in a constantly expanding market, it is now operating in an ever contracting market. In those countries where once we were supreme as sellers, we are now crowded out; those to whom we used to sell are supplying their own needs, and have a surplus left to export and sell in competition with us in neutral markets.
Do you approve of that?
You have to face that fact. A short time ago there was an article in the "Manchester Guardian" bearing on this question, the writer of which was dealing with the peculiar difficulties of the cotton trade. He pointed out that in the last 12 months, although there was a great deal of unemployment in the Lancashire cotton trade, we were just about holding our own in the European market and in America, but that in the East our markets had practically disappeared—markets which formerly took from us millions of yards of cotton goods, sufficient to find full employment during the whole of the year for half-a-dozen of the great Lancashire cotton producing, spinning and weaving towns. That is the problem, and the Government would be wise to turn their attention to it. These are some of the matters upon which more light might be given to us by some kind of Governmental investigation, or in regard to which we might be given some indication of how the Government propose to deal with them. The Government, by their past policy in the Far East, have not helped in regard to this problem. Their policy towards India, their policy towards China, has up to now helped to lose our markets there, and has induced unemployment in our country.
In spite of all the wriggling of the Minister of Health, in spite of all the explanatory speeches of Ministers on the Government Front Bench, it comes back to this, that much of our industrial difficulty to-day arises from bad Government policies in the years that are past. The constant jeering because we who sit on these benches failed to find a solution for this problem in 1924 is ridiculous nonsense. The Labour Government had, I suppose, about 110 Parliamentary days of office, and we are taunted with the fact that in those 110 days we did not clear up the mess that has come at the end of your 110 years of office. That is the problem that has to be dealt with in the future. At any rate, our point has not been answered. We are told that this problem is part of the aftermath of the War, but during the War we were told that there was going to be no aftermath. The Coalition Government told us that there were to be no real sinister effects at all, that these problems would be solved for us quite easily if only the men would go out and risk their lives and sacrifice themselves. We were not going back to the bad old times; they would be gone for ever; we were going forward to the new times, to a new era when all those wonderful things would be done, if only the men would sacrifice themselves and fight.
We are told that this poverty is the aftermath of the War. A good deal of talk in that direction is, from my point of view, pure nonsense. As I understand the meaning of wealth, it is those things that can be utilised for the production of further wealth. Industrial wealth consists of the things whereby you will create commodities and wealth in general, and from the point of view of the machinery of production of real industrial wealth this country is as rich as ever it was in the whole of its history; in fact, richer. In steel alone there is a tremendous surplus plant which cannot possibly be utilised. I am told that on the Clyde, when turning out a certain tonnage prior to the War, 168,000 men were employed. Now, in spite of all the bad times, the Clyde turns out a greater tonnage with an employment of something like 90,000 men—70,000 fewer men employed and a greater output of deadweight tonnage in shipping! Then we are told that we are poor. We are not poor. The machinery is there. It is true of all the machine trades. It is true of every trade in which machinery can be used.
Take this other fact. Half Lancashire is idle. The factories are idle, and the men are idle. They are talking about going on shorter time still. They are talking about working less than a 25-hour week. In this House we have passed Resolutions guaranteeing the credit of the Government for the purpose of growing cotton in Egypt, for the purpose of erecting barrages on the Nile, for the purpose of making Lancashire independent of the Southern States of America. Now we are told that there is too much cotton, more than we know how to use. We do not know what to do with it. Prior to the Mississippi floods the Southern Cotton Grower's Association threatened that unless President Coolidge put the credit of the State behind them they would burn 4,000,000 bales of cotton on a given date. They did not know what to do with it. In South Wales there are people who lack clothing, there are weavers and spinners unemployed in Lancashire, cotton is to be burnt in America, and there is too much grown in Egypt. There is the contradiction of the capitalist system which the Government stand for and support. You talk to us about unemployment being the outcome of this, that and the other. Unemployment is the outcome of our rottenly organised method of doing our business. If only we organise ourselves and utilise our machine power and the human skill of which we have heard to-day—and the British workman is as good as any in the world, bar none—if we utilise the materials with which the earth will supply us, we Socialists are bold enough to declare that there is- no need for poverty at all. I believe it is only on those lines that we are going to deal ultimately with unemployment. Until we reach a point at which we can deal with unemployment by a reasonable, sound and sane method of utilising our powers and resources to satisfy human needs and wants, we shall have to adopt the best method we possibly can, either by a Labour or a Conservative Government. But the first thing we ought to say, as a Government and as a House of Commons, is that at least we ought to come to the rescue of people who are starving and perishing in the midst of plenty, who are suffering penury and want, who are living, as they are in my constituency and at Abertillery, in conditions which would disgrace a tribe of savages. Until these things are wiped away the Government ought to stand condemned before the people.
I do not want to follow the hon. Member who has just sat down, but to revert to the subject of safeguarding. [Hon. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I am very glad to hear the applause with which my remarks are received from the seats above the Gangway. I associate myself particularly with the observations of the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Wardlaw-Milne) who urged upon the Government the necessity for a simplification of the procedure under which safeguarding should be granted. Everyone is aware of the-beneficent effects of the different duties at present in existence. The trouble, however, is that it is so very difficult for any industry to conform to the terms of the White Paper which defines the tests that have to be satisfied before safeguarding can be granted and to pass these tests. I hope that, if the Government feel that at present they cannot alter the system of procedure, they will announce at the earliest possible moment their intention of doing so as soon as they can. I think it has been shown that these tests are much too complicated and cumbersome. I should like to see them replaced by something very much more simple and more practicable, which would nevertheless really have the same effects as these very complicated rules. Instead of the very elaborate tests, demanded first of all by the Board of Trade before a Committee of Inquiry is set up, and also the very severe ones that have to be fulfilled when the Committee is appointed, I would suggest that if an industry can prove two things it should be entitled to safeguarding. The first test I should like to see would be whether the application of safeguarding would provide more employment in a given industry. The second would be whether safeguarding could be applied to any industry without adversely affecting any other industry. I feel very strongly indeed that if those two tests were replied to satisfactorily the applicant should be entitled to the benefit of safeguarding. From my own personal contact with the West Riding of Yorkshire, I am sure that there is in the country a greater realisation now than ever there has been of the value of safeguarding in some form or other, and I hope, in view of the excellent results that have been produced by the small Measure that has been given us, the Government will announce at the earliest possible date that they propose, when they can, to make it simpler for any industry to obtain it.
The Minister of Health has delivered an extraordinary speech in which he spoke of the vague nature of the Amendment. An accusation of vagueness coining from one of the right hon. Gentlemen who are responsible for the Speech from the Throne strikes me as most singular and peculiar. I have read the King's Speech very carefully with an earnest desire to find some definite pronouncement, but from beginning to end, with the exception of the very pious suggestion at the end asking for the blessing of Almighty God to rest upon our labours, I do not see anything of a definite character in the whole document. I go further. It is not only vague, but absolutely unintelligible. I go further still and suggest in all seriousness that it is hypocritical, almost amounting to organised hypocrisy in every word. The Amendment regrets that no mention is made of Measures designed to grapple with the present urgency of unemployment, especially in the coal and other basic industries, and its menacing effect on many areas where industrial enterprise is being crippled and local government is breaking down. Is there anything vague about that? Is there anything in the history of the present Government, is there anything in the King's Speech justifying an accusation of vagueness against the Labour Amendment? That is the whole crux of the question.
The right hon. Gentleman himself said that although many promises had been made by his Government, the performances were going on. He is quite right. As I lay back in my seat and closed my eyes, I could visualise for the moment the truth of that sentence. I could fancy myself, not in the political arena, but in the arena of a circus, and it only required the crack of the ring master's whip to complete the illusion. I do not say this in an aggressive manner, because the right hon. Gentleman seemed to be very uncomfortable in his job. He had a difficult task, and I had every sympathy with him. His performances, however, are not up to his record. It is in no aggressive spirit, but rather in sorrow, that I cannot compliment him on his performance to-night, for a more artistic exhibition of political tight-rope walking or looping the loop it has never been my privilege to witness.
8.0. p.m.
The right hon. Gentleman spoke of these things as being the aftermath of the war. It is 10 years since the war ended. How long is the aftermath to go on? I assume that, if the right hon. Gentleman is fortunate enough or, as far as the country is concerned, unfortunate enough to occupy his present position 10 years from now, he will be using the same argument as he is using to-day. What have been the performances? He spoke of what the safeguarding of industries had accomplished. It has been my privilege to listen to that remedy in this House for over 12 years, and industry to-day is no more safe and in fact is in greater danger than it was when these gentlemen began to suggest the remedy. What is the remedy? For the last four Sessions of Parliament at least the time and patience, not only of the House, but of yourself, Mr. Speaker, have been spent listening to the suggestions to place a tax upon knives and forks, scissors, and razor blades, paper bags, ladies' underwear, and last but not least, "two to one on the field." That is the record of a Government which is going to solve the unemployed problem by means of safeguarding industry. If they are serious, there are three basic industries in this country that they might save—coal, cotton and steel. They have made several feeble attempts to do so with the disastrous result that the only safeguard they provided was not for the men engaged in the basic industries, but in order to give the employers an opportunity of cut-throat competition, of -advancing the hours of labour, and of cutting down the wages of the men in the industry. As a matter of fact, all these questions have been dealt with so many times that it always seems to me, if I may use a Shakespearean phrase, nothing short of "damnable iteration" to go over and over it again. As a matter of fact, we have been twitted to-night with having been in power and not suggesting any remedy. My hon. Friend behind me who spoke last has dealt with that question very pertinently. We have suggested a remedy. We suggest a remedy now. [An HON. MEMBER: "What is it?"] A system that denies able-bodied men or women, physically fit and capable of producing wealth and adding to the wealth and comfort of the community, is a liability when it ought to be a valuable asset. A system that denies that opportunity is responsible for the existing degradation, and that is a system that we wish to remedy. The real fundamental difference between us is that we suggest a system whereby such things will become impossible.
The right hon. Gentleman's alternative is private enterprise. I want to examine that argument. Private enterprise may be right or it may be wrong. Private enterprise up to a point may be considered, even by some Members on this side of the House, justifiable, but, when it fails to meet the obligations of men willing and anxious to work, then private enterprise shows its absolute incapacity to meet the case. What is the basis of this so-called private enterprise? Incentive for gain, individual profit. We are told every time we suggest a remedy that if we take that away the whole stable constitution of the country is going to fall to pieces like a pack of cards. That admits on the face of it that private profit is legitimate, moral, constitutional and legal. But if you admit the right of a person to make profit and the means by which he makes profit, then constitutionally, legally and consistently, you have no right to limit the amount of profit he makes, or the scope which enables him to make it. His Majesty's Government have admitted that fact by appointing a Food Commission to inquire into the immorality of profiteering. What is the result? The result is humiliating. The Commission have to confess that, although there is profiteering which is quite in keeping, consistently and legally, with the present system, they have no legitimate power to prevent it, thus admitting right away that the principle of private profit is unlimited, and the means by which it is made is perfectly justifiable, no matter what they are.
I am not going to indulge in an economic lecture. I am only endeavouring to prove that all this humbug about private enterprise being the safeguard of the country simply means that any man is justified under the present system in using anything under the law which allows private profit—to sweat, to underpay, and to crucify those whom he employs—in order to get individual private profit. It goes much further than that. Private enterprise extends in many directions. Take the field of science and invention. Private enterprise to-day is allowed to make profit out of inventing machines and engines of destruction. The laboratories of this country and the inventive mind are used in two directions. In the first place, man's ingenuity has taken the place of "man's inhumanity to man" which "makes countless thousands mourn." Under this system of private profit the best brains of the country are now being used for the purpose of destroying life, and destroying the means by which life can be saved.
Take the other side—the question of science and brains usually devoted to the saying of life. We are told that it is human nature not to do anything unless the initiative for gain is behind it. I dispute that. Human nature is all right if it has its opportunities. It is the inhuman conditions that prevent human nature exercising its functions. I will give one or two instances. What about the seamen who risk their lives in endeavouring to save life at sea? I speak with some experience on this matter. I have participated in it on more than one occasion. When battling against gales, and with mountainous seas running, and when volunteers have been called upon, I have seen the whole of the members of a crew almost breaking their necks in tumbling over one another in their eagerness to volunteer to go and save the lives of men who were sinking in mid-ocean. What about the miners? We know how men risk their lives every time there is a colliery explosion by going down into the bowels of the earth to rescue their comrades.
What about the down-and-outs, the men who, owing to conditions created under private enterprise, cannot get employment? They are shut off the dole. They are refused Poor Law relief. Men go on tramp, and the law of the land says: "If you sleep in a ditch, you are a vagabond. If you get over the hedge to sleep under a haystack you are a vagabond and a trespasser. If you pull a turnip from the field to satisfy the pangs of hunger you are a vagabond, a trespasser and a thief, liable to be imprisoned." Therefore, the only alternative such a man has is to remain continually on tramp for 24 hours, or to take advantage of the very cold hospitality of the first casual ward he comes to. For a return of the hospitality he is allowed to lie on the soft side of a long plank for a bed, and given a basin of skilly in the morning. I have had some. I have been there. He is compelled under the law—it may not be the practice now but it is the law—to perform a task until such time that it is too late for him to look for a job, even if there be any job going. And so he goes on and on.
A system which has created chronic unemployment is justified by the parrot cry of "private enterprise." The cry is raised of supply and demand; that you cannot create a demand when there is no supply. The incident was mentioned by my hon. Friend behind me of the burning of bales of cotton, and we are told that there is no demand for cotton when to-day there are a million men who have no money with which to buy shirts. It is no use saying that there is no demand for boots when the children of the people who produce all these things are going barefoot in the slums of our great towns. We pay the workers just enough wages to enable them to keep their bodies and souls together. Then when the walls of the warehouses are bulging with the goods which they make and which they have not the money to buy, we say to them, "We are very sorry there is no demand for these goods and therefore we must put you out of work." Yet the very fact that these people want the goods is a natural demand, but the goods are denied to them because they have not sufficient wages. And this is the boasted private enterprise which is going to safeguard the interests of this country! It is no use endeavouring to argue that it is all due to human nature. Human nature is all right. Remove the inhuman conditions and human nature will assert itself in the right way. Right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite try to hide behind the economic facts, which so-called private enterprise has created and for which it is responsible. Let them have the courage of their convictions. I quote one passage from the Gracious Speech: the disease. But the disease is there all the time and all the remedies of right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite have failed to remove it. On the contrary, their efforts have intensified it. They cannot shelter themselves behind the flimsy excuse of the people described in that poem of Russell Lowell's in which the poet imagines a second visit of Our Lord to the earth:
It was not my intention to take part in the Debate this evening, but having just returned from my constituency, which is a large industrial one, and my last engagement there having been to attend a Chamber of Trade dinner, I think it is expedient that I should express to the House the feeling of satisfaction which exists that His Majesty's most Gracious Speech contains nothing which would involve any addition to the burdens on industry. On the contrary, the Speech includes a suggestion that legislation may be brought before the House which will assist industry. I refer to the matter of local taxation. Our great industries to-day are suffering very severely from high local taxation. Indeed, it is not too much to say that in many cases the present rate of local taxation is well-nigh intolerable. Some concerns have had to close down: others have had to remove from one part of the country to another in order to escape these high rates, and anything which may be done to reduce local taxation will be acceptable in the industrial areas. Local taxation is a direct charge upon industry, whereas Income Tax is merely incidental to the profit which a particular industry may be earning. For that reason the industries of our country are very sensible of the advantage which they may derive under the suggested new legislation and my hope is that that legislation will be brought before the House in sufficient time to enable industry to derive some benefit therefrom in the immediate future.
Reference has been made this evening in several parts of the House to the cotton industry. I do not propose to enlarge upon the difficulties with which it is confronted at present, except to say this, that I was deeply disappointed to see suggestions put forward for the increase of hours and the reduction of wages in that industry. I cannot think that either a reduction in wages or an increase in hours can, in itself, put the cotton industry on an economic footing. All through, I have supported the Washington Convention, and I am still not without hope that we may see that Convention ratified and see a 48-hour week become universal. The Gracious Speech also refers to the Bill which is likely to come before the House during the present Session to give equal franchise.
I do not see how the hon. Member can connect this with the subject of unemployment.
I accept your ruling, but I thought we were in order in speaking upon anything relative to the King's Speech. As I must only refer to unemployment, let me mention the question of safeguarding, which is the only other point with which I desire to deal. We are thankful to the Government for such assistance as industry has received by the policy of safeguarding, but many of us feel that the great problem of unemployment cannot be adequately dealt with except by a very material extension of that policy. I would refer to the great woollen textile industry of the West Riding, which is capable of employing many thousand more hands than it is at the present time, and which in the past has increased the revenues of the country by the payment of Income Tax upon its profits. At the present time that industry, almost without exception, is suffering very severe depression due to competition over which it has no control. I ask the Government seriously to consider the decision at which they have arrived and give this industry safeguarding at the earliest possible moment. Reference has already been made to the necessity for safeguarding the great steel industry, and I do not propose to say anything more in that connection this evening.
On the whole, the curve of industrial prosperity is in an upward direction, and if the Government would give more assistance by extending the policy of safeguarding I believe the prosperity of which we now see signs would be likely to develop more rapidly. I hope the Government will consider whether something further can be done in that direction. In the industrial world to-day employer and employé are working more closely and more harmoniously together than they have done for many years past, and if the three great partners, capital, employer and employé, will continue to co-operate together, it is my belief that the ray of sunshine which we see to-day penetrating through the cloud of industrial darkness will gradually develop into a period of real sunshine and the country in the near future secure a degree of prosperity greater than any in its history.
The Minister of Health in his reply twitted us on this side of the House with having a very sparse attendance at certain stages of the discussion this afternoon. It does not lie with the right hon. Gentleman to make that statement. I admit that whilst one or two other meetings were in progress in the building, at which many of my colleagues were in attendance, the number on these benches was not very large.
It is not very large now.
No, but I draw attention to the fact that during the last hour and a half over 400 Conservative Members have been absent from the House, and it lies very badly with the Minister of Health to twit us in regard to the attendance of the Labour party. But in regard to the Conservative party, this has not been unusual at any one time during the last three years. On Tuesday last, the opening day of Parliament, there was a long period when there were only two members of the Government present and over 400 absent. The right hon. Gentleman said that the Amendment was not only vague but not quite equal to the Amendment which we moved last year. There may be a vagueness about it, but it is not equal to the vagueness of the King's Speech. From the first word to the last, except where the Government have no doubt as to the truth of the statement, it is vague and there is no indication as to what is going to be done by the Government this year. Then the right hon. Gentleman said that the unemployment problem is a very old question. That is our complaint against the Government. It is a very old question and one which this Government particularly has never tried to grapple with. The only suggestion that has been made—and I am sure the hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. A. Hopkinson) will not agree with many of the proposals put forward by some of his friends—is that we should have safeguarding in the engineering trade. I wonder how safeguarding is going to help the engineering trade in its present period of depression. How is it going to help the shipbuilding trade; and yet hon. Members opposite have the effrontery to suggest—
That is a good word.
I am not allowed to use a stronger one—to suggest that the way out of the difficulties in the shipbuilding trade is to safeguard the industry and prevent the foreigner bringing his ships to this country. It is a most outrageous proposal, and it has been put forward by one or two people who make a good livelihood out of the particular businesses with which they are concerned. We have heard a great deal about the motor trade this afternoon and it is said that if the Government will only apply the safeguarding proposals it will be highly successful. As I listened to some of the speeches, I pictured the Engineering Employers' Federation responding to our application for an advance in wages, which is now before them, by telling us how highly successful and profitable trade was at this particular moment. I am afraid the engineering employers will not agree with members of His Majesty's Government when we come to sit around a table and talk wage problems with them during the course of the next few days. We have been reminded of the silk trade and the glove trade; and one hon. Member had the temerity to suggest the chemical trade.
The chemical trade has been referred to in the last few days by an hon. Member opposite, who had an idea that there was some safeguarding even in the case of chemicals. In those particular industries in which there has been an increase of employment, it has not been due to safeguarding. Most of the proposals for the conduct of those particular industries were well under way before application was made for safeguarding. In the case of the chemical industry, there has not been an increase in the number of people employed. During the last few years, owing to improvements in machinery and the methods of manufacturing, the industry has been able to turn out more of its products with fewer men than were employed before the War. I cannot see that in the proposal of safeguarding for that industry there is anything that will help.
I have noticed the suggestion that if only we would co-operate in the industries things would be much better. The hon. Gentleman who has just spoken referred to the better feeling in industry To which industry does he allude? Where has there been the bad feeling, the unrest and all that we read of or hear spoken of by Cabinet Ministers, particularly when they are in the country? The men and women engaged in the industries of the country have been patient, not to the degree of virtue but to a degree that is almost vicious, in tolerating bad conditions. It is not in the direction of the workpeople that anyone need look for the good feeling that ought to operate, but rather in the direction of the employers, who, because of their training, whenever difficulties come to them always turn to the cutting of the wages bill in order to recoup themselves either for their bad management or bad selling or bad dealings. When I read of this "peace in industry" I imagine that it is a cloak for many of the people concerned, either on the financial or the management side of the industry, to cover up their own evil doings. I am not claiming saintliness in the industrial sense for the people with whom I am concerned. If they were saints probably they would not require to organise, as they have to organise, in order to contest with those who have not dealt with them properly. It is because they are not saints that I am fighting with them in order to help them to get out of their difficulties.
We were told by the hon. and gallant Member for Harrow (Major Salmon) that last year, when he visited Japan, he found that the Japanese were crying out for British machinery, but that they would not order if, much as they loved it and felt that it was the only satisfactory machinery, because of the strikes and disputes in this country. The truth is that in the engineering trade there has not been a strike of any dimensions for some years.
There was the general strike in 1926.
I expected that remark from the hon. Member. I ask him to learn a little more about the Subject, not to take his information from me but to make his inquiries from the Engineering Employers' Federation as to what took place in the engineering trade at that particular time. With regard to the alleged unrest and disputes in this country, we often hear statements made at Conservative meetings by members of the Government, but, really, they are not true. One has often found that many of the orders that might have come here but did not come here, were not withheld because of anything for which the operatives were responsible. We have been told to-day of the burdens upon industry, and in the Address there is a reference to easing the burden. I rather judged from the unsatisfactory statement made by the Minister of Health—I am sure he will be anything but proud when he comes to read it in the morning, for it certainly was not a credit to the House or the Government—that the Government intend to deal even with the easing of the burden on industry in a, niggardly way by means of grants or something of that kind. If that be the method they are to adopt, one can safely tell them that there will be strong opposition to it. If local rating that is burdening industry is to be eased, we must throw the charge upon those who have made good, who have made themselves very wealthy out of the improvements in land values, during the last few years particularly. [ Interruption. ] We know it in the district from which the hon. Member comes, and that the construction of road's there has increased the value of the land. Instead of the advantage from that going to the district or even towards the easement of industry, it has all gone into private pockets, and it is time that we had it back for the benefit of industry.
The unemployment problem is not referred to in the King's Speech. I am rather glad that the representative of the Minister of Labour is here at this moment, for we were reminded of the training centres. Surely, the Government are not going to take a great deal of credit to themselves and to say that they will ease the problem by setting up three or four training centres. That will not help us to any extent even with the problem of juvenile labour, let alone with that of adult labour at this time. I know that the suggestion of the Minister of Labour is that a redistribution of the juvenile labour available is under consideration. I hope that the Government will be very careful in the matter of moving batches of young boys and young girls from their homes to industries in different parts of the country. That is not a solution of the problem; it is no help out of the difficulty with whicih we are faced. Why cannot this problem be tackled in the way suggested by the hon. Member for Merthyr (Mr. Wallhead) and the hon. Member for St. Helens (Mr. Sexton), who said that it was necessary to render some help to industry, not in the form in which the Government are doing it as, for example, in the sugar beet industry; but that, where there are difficulties in regard to our dealing with other countries, so far as the Government can help in easing the way they will do so, so that our commerce can flow between one country and another. One would imagine that the world had already been supplied with everything that it needed, and that there was no demand for all that our labour power can be engaged upon. Not only knowledge of our own country, but some knowledge of what is going on in other countries shows that there is a demand there. How that demand is going to be made effective is a question with which Governments will have to deal. If this Government finds itself incapable of deal- ing with it, then it ought to get out of the way, and allow other people to come in who will be able to solve it.
I have listened to the greater part of this Debate. The speakers from the Government side, in every case in which I have heard them, have recommended an extention of safeguarding in order to cure unemployment. I am not going to discuss the economic side of that question, because my experience is that though it has been debated at very great length for at least a generation, no man has ever yet been convinced by economic arguments one way or the other. What the speakers from the Government side of the House seem to have failed to see is that it is no use pressing on the Government a policy which means the inevitable dissolution of the Government which is expected to carry it out. If one thing is more plain than another, it is that the process of safeguarding—we must not discuss whether it is economically sound or not, but my views on that subject are well known—has, up to the present, been very wisely applied only to little anæmic industries in the country, with the result that any bad effect which may accrue is so small that nobody can perceive it. Some hon. Members whom we have heard this afternoon from the Government side of the House have been pressing that this wonderful system of safeguarding—a process which used to be called Protection, but the name died about four years ago—should be applied to some substantial industry, by preference the steel industry. They fail to see a thing, which the Government Front Bench apparently see very clearly indeed, that the only political effect of safeguarding in a substantial industry, such as the steel industry, would be the loss of the agricultural vote to the Conservative party. So it is no use recommending to the present Government, either from these benches or from those opposite, an extension of protective tariffs in order to diminish unemployment, because the Government are not quite so green as some of the Back Bench Members think.
I notice that the Amendment is drawn in such a way that it refers particularly to the coal industry. Let us, quite seriously, devote our minds to considering the position of employment in the coal industry now, and the position as it existed in the summer of 1925. If we look at the problem without bias, and with only a desire to see what is good in the situation as well as what is bad, we shall not adopt that extremely pessimistic tone which the mover of the Amendment used to-night in regard to that industry. The fact of the matter is, as he suggested, that some 150,000 to 200,000 men and boys, registered as belonging to the coal mining industry, have not any chance of employment there, either now or in the future. Let us face the fact that it was perfectly well known, in the summer of 1925, that that situation was bound to arise. I have spoken in this House on the subject, and I pointed out, even in those early days, that there were some 200,000 men then in the coal mining industry who were redundant to that industry. When I speak of their being redundant, I mean that, at any possible output of coal in this country at the present time, it is impossible to give a really satisfactory standard of living to more than 950,000 men and boys engaged in that industry. I notice that an hon. Member who represents a miners' constituency is. in agreement with me on that point, that if we are going to produce from 260,000,000 to 270,000,000 tons of coal a year, as we are doing at present, we cannot guarantee even a moderately decent living to more than 950,000 men.
My difficulty is with 950,000 men; can we do that?
I am an optimist, as the hon. Member knows, and I think that we can.
You would not be an optimist on 30s. a week.
I presume the hon. Member does not get 30s. a week. That being the case, it seems to me that, as the representatives of the people of this country, we lay ourselves open to criticism if now, when we are faced with a position which we knew we should have to face, we begin to adopt this pessimistic grousing about a situation anticipated by all of us at least three years ago. The fact that there are a large number of miners redundant in the industry is one of the saddest features in the life of our country to-day. It is particularly sad because the position is one which would never have arisen at all if this Country had been governed with reasonable cir- cumspection. It would be a pity to go at any length into the causes why we have too many men in the industry, and into the desperate attempts which were made, when that was found out, to preserve them there—such desperate and hopeless attempts as the fixing of the seven-hours working day below ground, which was merely justified in order to keep in the industry men for whom there was actually no employment.
I turn to the position as it existed in the summer of 1925. As hon. Members opposite and those on this side of the House know perfectly well, in the summer of 1925 the full effects of the 1924 agreement were beginning to be seriously felt in the coal industry. In other words, the minimum rate which had then been fixed and which—it was said at the time by those whose business it was to anticipate these things—was certain to be fatal to the industry, had undoubtedly produced the expected effect.
In the summer of 1925, I think hon. Members opposite will agree with me, the coal industry of Great Britain was, to all intents and purposes, bankrupt. One has only to refer again to the Macmillan Committee's Report and to the evidence before that Committee to see that when the Macmillan Committee, in July, 1925, made their investigation into the state of the coal industry, the state of that industry was absolutely hopeless. There was no possibility on the existing terms of employing more than from 500,000 to 550,000 men at a reasonable wage in that industry. Certainly this was sure, that the coal exporting districts were down and out and were gradually losing the markets of the world. There, again, do not let us blame the Miners' Federation or anyone else of that kind, but let us blame the people who are finally responsible—I mean those who compiled that ridiculous document called the Treaty of Versailles. Those are the people who are really to blame, the people who wrecked the whole of the industrial balance of Europe, depending upon silly catchwords imported from the United States of America, such as "self-determination," which induced them to drive a great corridor right through the ancestral territory of one of the greatest nations the world has ever seen, and then expected that that was going to be a permanent state of affairs. The wisdom of the League of Nations in the partition of the Polish-Silesian coalfield, which forced a vast and increasing volume of coal production on to the Baltic ports, subsidised by the Polish Government, to the wrecking of the coal industry here, and, indeed, largely in Germany, is to blame. Those are the people to blame, and not those poor foolish creatures who involved the miners in such trouble in 1926.
Look at the state of the industry to-day, with very low wages, with no profits, taking the country as a whole, but with a recovery of the markets far beyond what anyone anticipated 18 months ago would be the case. So far as Germany is concerned, they are, as it were, down and out in competition with our coal in foreign markets. So far as the Polish-Silesian coalfield is concerned, it is incredible that the Polish Government can go on borrowing money and raising loans in the United States of America to pay subsidies of 4s. 6d. a ton on their export coal, as they are doing at the present time. The effect of the Eight Hours Act, so far as reduction of costs in exporting districts has been concerned, has been infinitely greater than even those who advocated that policy ever dreamed would be the case. I have been up in the North, in East and West Scotland and in Northumberland, quite recently, and a. little before in South Wales, and the effect of that extra hour has made all the difference between a bankrupt industry and one suffering terrible depression, but with some hope of coming to better things in the future.
9.0 p.m.
Reference has been made to a recent decision of the Conciliation Board in Northumberland which involved a terrible reduction of the basic rate of wages. It is a really terrible reduction, I agree, and I know well personally many of the unfortunate men who are going to suffer that reduction, but what strikes me, going about the coalfields—and doubtless the hon. Member for Mansfield (Mr. Varley) will back me up in this—is the extraordinary way in which the miners have buckled to it, in spite of their misfortunes and the miserable wages they are getting. The output per man shift in district after district has gone up and up and up, and I find, going into the coal face and talking to the men, in the face and on the roads, that there is an extra- ordinary courage on the part of the men in facing this situation. I think I may claim this also, on behalf of the other people mainly concerned, that on the whole—I do not claim virtue for all coalowners; far from it; I know coalowners too well—since the end of the great trouble of 1926 the owners, generally speaking, throughout the country have played up and made things as pleasant as they possibly could. [An HON. MEMBER: "No!"] Does the hon. Member dispute that? [ Interruption. ] However, that is the position, that in place of a bankrupt industry you will have an industry which is holding its own and has every chance now of becoming prosperous again in the course of time, an industry in which the men who are suffering most are patient beyond words and are really putting their backs into it, in order to do what they can to get that industry on to a better footing.
But I wish to reiterate what I said about the position before the great trouble of 1926. The position of the industries of Great Britain in 1925 and before 1st May, 1926, was, to my mind, hopeless. Until the proceedings which took place from 1st May onwards had taken place, we could not look forward to any future for this country. Here again I differ from many who speak from these Benches, and particularly from those who, having no sort of knowledge of present day industry at all, are always saying that all our troubles are due to sundry horrible and wicked people who are trade union officials. We have only to look at them as we see them here in this House. The hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. Kelly) does not look and does not, to my mind, speak like a real villain, and there are many others on those Benches to whom any ordinary man may speak without risk of being bitten. The trouble all through has been the politicians of this country. From 1910 onwards it was quite certain, to any observer who read his history and who could keep his eyes open, that sooner or later this country had got to go through what it went through in May, 1926, that crisis which apparently was going to develop in 1919, which very nearly developed—and, but for the extraordinary agility of the right hon. Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas), would have developed—on Black Friday of 1921, but which we faced in 1926. I may say this, that now that this country knows what revolutions are, it will be perfectly willing to face at least one every five years.
Mention was made by an hon. Member speaking from these Benches of the difficulties of the engineering trade as he learned of them in Japan. He said that, owing to the wicked trade unions in this country, it was so uncertain whether they could get their machinery from England that they preferred to place their orders elsewhere. The fact of the matter is, as my hon. Friend would have known very well if he had ever been engaged in the Japan trade, that owing to the terrific slump in Japan they buy precious little English stuff, because it costs rather a lot, and they have to buy any old stuff they can because they have so little money to pay for it. Let us now turn to a most unusual task for me—the praise of the existing Government. I admit that my praises are much more dangerous to any Government than the curses of the Opposition, but I must risk that, although I do hold at the present time that, looking at the Opposition as I do frequently, and listening to their speeches, the welfare of this country does really demand the continued existence of the present Government. What have that Government really done to help us in the unemployment crisis? Quite unconsciously they have done a number of things which undoubtedly have been very beneficial, and whose results are already begining to be felt throughout the country. Take one instance—their dealing with the housing problem. In dealing with that during their present lifetime they showed real repentance for what they did during their period of office in 1923. In 1923 they added £75 to the capital cost of every working-class house in the country.
I hope the hon. Member can bring his argument to the point of the Amendment.
With all deference, I think I can. The point I wish to bring out is that, although we have had a great deal of criticism of the burdens which the Government put upon industry by means of taxation and which local authorities put on by means of rating, I do not think that we have ever touched the real core of the problem of the burden of taxation on industry. So far as my experience goes, it does not hurt industries at all to have high taxes, providing those taxes are devoted to legitimate purposes. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer came to the House with his Budget this year and said, "I am going to put two shillings on the Income Tax and devote the whole of the proceeds to increasing the Sinking Fund of this country," then, so far as an humble industrialist might do so, I should thank him for having taken a step which cannot harm industry. But, suppose he said, "I am going to put on a surtax of two shillings and devote the proceeds to social reform," then that would be a very different matter as far as employment is concerned, because social reform, when all is said and done, is nothing but a process of putting certain favoured classes or individuals upon a standard of living which is vastly higher than the economic situation justifies. That is all it comes to. Simply to take one or other class, say the class that has got the most votes in elections, and reduce the standard of living of those who have not got many votes, in order to increase the standard of living of those who have got many votes, does undoubtedly add to the number of unemployed; because if you put certain people on an artificially high standard of living the wives of these people go to market and shove up prices against everybody else. Since the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas) put the railwaymen on an artificial basis, a million railwaymen's wives were able to keep up the cost of living far above the figure it should be on a gold basis. That is where the trouble comes in. The keeping up of retail prices invariably results from the artificial raising of the standard of living of any considerable class.
With regard to the housing problem, and linking it up with the subject of this Debate, the raising of the cost of working-class houses by £75 by the Minister of Health in his previous term of office put the building trade on an artificial standard of living, and put into the market a lot more people with money to spend; and they put up the price of commodities against the people who had to earn the whole of their living, instead of earning part of it and getting the rest out of the pockets of those who could not be protected or safeguarded in any way. The Government, having caused considerable unemployment in the sheltered industries by putting the building industry on to a high standard of living, repented of its sins, and last year reduced the subsidy on houses by 30 per cent. The result, which possibly anybody but the Minister of Health might have anticipated, was that the cost of working-class houses built under the subsidy scheme was, on the average, £25 less than it was before. Therefore, in that direction the present Government have undoubtedly helped with the unemployment problem.
To go back to the coal industry, what have the Government done there? Again, quite unconsciously, and I believe very much against their will, they saved the coal industry. They resisted tooth and nail during two solid months doing the only thing a Government could do to help the coal industry, but eventually we pushed them over the edge, and we have now got the position of being able to keep in decent employment something like 950,000 men in the coal industry instead of a bare 500,000. Therefore, we can credit the Government with 450,000 more men who would not have been employed if the seven hours' day had still been in force. There, again, we must praise the Government for having unconsciously helped us. Take a further ramification of the coal industry. Supposing that the Government had not given us the eight hours, and supposing that we had lost the export coal trade, what would have happened to the shipping industry? How is this country going to maintain its shipping and its shipbuilding unless we have 50 to 100 million tons per annum of something big, bulky and heavy to export and form return cargoes for vessels bringing the various imports of raw material and food that we have to import? Losing our shipping industry, we should lose our shipbuilding industry, and with that a whole heap of subsidiary industries. Therefore, I say, let us praise this Government, because, although they for long resisted the light that was in them, that light broke through in the end. They gave us the eight hours' day, and they diminished the housing subsidy, and to that extent they diminished the unemployment problem.
It is not often that I can find anything said by the hon. Mem- ber who has just spoken with which I can agree, but I have found myself in complete agreement with him in some things. I cannot agree with him, however, in the alleged fact that the welfare of this country is inseparably bound up with the continued existence of this Government. If that were so, I could only say, "God help the country!"
Was the hon. Member in the House when this Amendment was put forward from his own Front Bench?
I was not.
Oh, well, that accounts for it!
At any rate, I do emphatically agree with him when he says that we shall do very well indeed if in future we can find decent employment for 950,000 men in the coal industry. I know my words will make no impression on the Government, but I should be pleased if the effect of his words will be to bring the Government face to face with that proposition, and get them away from the blind complacency which they have exhibited now for two years, that feeling that somewhere, somehow, in God's good time, we shall get back some phantom market which, I gather, in the opinion of the hon. Member for Mossley, no longer exists. I hope they will recognise the truth of his assertion that we are not likely to find a market for any greater production than we shall get from these 950,000 men. The sooner the Government realise that, the sooner will they come face to face with the fact that there are. nearly 200,000 men for whom some alternative employment must be found, and that will be a very great step in the right direction.
What do you suggest?
I did not get up particularly to criticise anything said by the hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. Hopkinson); it was rather a statement by the Minister of Health which brought me to my feet. He was calling attention to the fact that three well-known gentlemen had been appointed a committee to supervise the transfer of men from one district to another. I am pleased the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour is present, because I want to enquire whether it is the casei—rather than to assert it—that the function of these gentlemen is to transfer miners from a district where there is much unemployment to a district where, there is less unemployment but where, nevertheless, some unemployment still exists. I come from the County of Nottingham—for my sins, I suppose—and there we are far luckier than they are in some of the other coalfields, although I do not share the optimism of the hon. Member for Mossley, which is based upon what he speaks of as his recent experience. Even in this coalfield the order of the day is that something less than half-time is now being worked. I know that he knows our collieries sufficiently well to recognise them if I name them. At the Welbeck Colliery the order of the day has been three shifts one week and two shifts another, and that is one of the largest, one of the most modern and best appointed collieries in this country.
Going back to the functions of this committee of three, I come to the challenge issued by the hon. Member for Mossley as to whether anyone can deny that good relationships now exist. In one of the districts with the largest production, and one which, from the coalowners' point of view, is one of the most lucrative districts—it was so even during the years which the hon. Member claimed were the years of depression in the coal trade—at one, at two, at three collieries attempts have recently been made to lower the basic rates upon which the men's wages are paid. We are told that these coalowners are men of honour —above everything men of honour—and that they have come to an agreement with an hon. Member of this House under which they guarantee to pay a certain minimum percentage Certainly they are continuing to pay that percentage, but at the same time they are reducing the basic rates upon which the percentage is paid. In spite of the courage of the men in these dark days, to which the hon. Member for Mossley referred, hi spite of their fortitude, and in spite of the increased energy they have put into their task, the men have resented thin breach of honour. Amongst the working men of England there is still some honour left, and when they make an agreement they generally adhere to it.
I am sorry I cannot say the same thing about the coalowners of Nottingham- shire, whom the hon. Member for Mossley has been eulogising. There are three collieries connected with one company whose financial records since 1916 show that they have paid themselves dividends equal to 321 per cent. on their capital in 11 years; in addition they have given themselves bonus shares equal to 250 per cent. of their capital, and, further, the appreciation of their capital in the share market would give them a return of 730 per cent., over the period of 11 years, if they sold out to-morrow. This is the firm who, in pursuit of peace, harmony, co-operation, concord and all those beautiful abstracts with which the hon. Gentleman has loaded them, have reduced the basic rates of the men. Our men resented it, and because of that 400 were summarily dismissed a fortnight last Friday. They had been working on day-to-day contracts whilst some negotiations or other were proceeding. The men are now being taken on again, but are being asked to sign a declaration that1 they will accept the deduction of 3½d. per ton from their basic rates, and join a trade organisation to which they do not want to belong, and, in addition, they have to dismiss their check weigher —a clear breach of the 1904 Act, though as Court proceedings will follow I will leave the matter there. At any rate, when the hon. Member for Mossley comes challenging us about the "honourable attitude" of people, and the exercise of their powers in the direction of peace, harmony, good will, co-operation and concord, and asks for specific instances to the contrary, there is one straight from the mint.
I distinctly said "On the whole" I actually said I knew too much about the coalowners to say "all of them."
Unfortunately, I do not know coalowners on the whole, or have a great deal to do with them on the whole. I am speaking about those who come within my immediate ken and who are in a district where there has been less occasion than in any other for any departure from the good relationships which have hitherto existed. I notice that in the Gracious Speech from the Throne, a hope is expressed, probably based upon the appeal for co-operation and good will, that there will be an expansion of our home and foreign trade. I sincerely hope that may materialise, and, in so far as the Government can bring any influence to bear, I sincerely trust they will direct attention to the Midlands, where there is precious little co-operation and no good will at all—no good will at all. Instead of relationships improving, they are getting worse and worse, and we do not want the activities of the three gentlemen who have been appointed by the Minister of Labour to be used to compel our men to join a certain organisation, or to bring in men from other districts because our men will not submit to any and every imposition which is sought to be imposed upon them. I sincerely hope that trade will improve, that relationships will improve, and that we may get peace in industry, but so far as the county of Nottingham is concerned the tendency is all in the opposite direction. It is to be devoutly hoped that the Government will turn their attention to this aspect of affairs in so far as they are involved, and they are involved in the administration of existing Acts of Parliament and can lend their aid by formulating others.
I was interested to hear from the hon. Member for Mossley exactly what had been the saving through the introduction of the Eight Hours Act. He said the dismissal of large numbers of men was inevitable in any case. There has certainly been a very large saving in the costs of production, but all that has been frittered away by reductions in prices. Whether that was absolutely necessary or not I am not prepared to say, but I do profoundly believe that the whole of it was not necessary, and I want to reiterate what I have said on two occasions, that, although an attempt is now being made at this late hour to institute voluntary co-operative selling agencies, they cannot be made successful until they are compulsory. Although in the district from which I come the experiment is successful, it can only be successful at the expense of some other district and intensify in that district the distress now existing. Therefore, on this question of unemployment, the Government have still a large part to play even if the hon. Member for Mossley and those who think with him would like the Government and politicians to leave well alone. He is a logical man. He deprecated the poli- tician in industry and proceeded to give an instance of how this industry has been robbed of 600,000 tons of its annual trade by a direct political act, the institution of the Polish corridor. That was not an industrial act at all, but was done by the politician. I claim that, in their own defence, the industrialists must from time to time continue to take part in politics. Because I believe that, I suggest to the Government that there is a worthy work to which they might turn their hand and which will in course of time contribute in some little measure to the alleviation of this unemployment problem.
If the speech delivered by the hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. Hopkinson) has served no other purpose, it has at least served a useful purpose by eliciting the interesting speech from the hon. Member for Mansfield (Mr. Varley) to which the House has listened with attention. The main purpose of this Amendment is to express regret at the complete failure of the Government to suggest in the King's Speech any proposals whatever to deal with the problem of unemployment. I noticed that, although the Member for Mossley made a very clever and entertaining speech, he wound up by leaving us exactly as we were when he started, so far as any constructive proposals for the solution of the problem were concerned. Earlier in the Debate an hon. Member opposite made a complaint that from this side there came no constructive proposals at all. The thought passed through my mind when he made that statement that, if he addressed that remark to his own Government, there might have been some purpose in it, because it is perfectly impassible to discover in the Gracious Speech a single line which makes a constructive proposal to deal with the problem of unemployment. The hon. Member for Mossley admitted that, even under the best circumstances, and assuming that 950,000 miners could under favourable circumstances be maintained in the mining industry, there would still be 200,000 who were redundant. He admitted quite frankly and in the most emphatic terms that, speaking from the owners' point of view, even when the maximum number of men possible were employed, one had to face the fact that there were still 200,000 for whom there was no opportunity of employment.
It is not only the case that there are 200,000 unemployed in the mining industry, but there are several hundreds of thousands unemployed in other industries outside the mining industry. What ever might be done in the direction that the hon. Member for Mossley indicated and credited the Government with having done, namely, having retained some 400,000 men, who, he said, would other wise have been unemployed, in the mining industry by their Eight Hours Act of 1926, there are still left a million people in the various industries of the country including mining who are out of employment. It occurred to me that, if it be true, as he argued, that the abolition of the seven hours' working day for miners and the institution of the eight hours' working day resulted in employing 950,000 miners instead of 550,000, then why not go further and make it a nine hours' day and thus absorb all the men in the mining industry? It occurred to me as a possible piece of logic. The question to which I wish to call the attention of the House is a question of constructive proposals. Not a single proposal has come from the opposite side of the House in the Debate to-day as to anything practical to be done to meet what is agreed to be a grave national situation. Not a single practical proposal has been made as to how the one million people who are suffering from unemployment are to have their case met. The only thing that approached a constructive proposal was the statement of the Minister of Health that, among other things, the Government are carrying on certain training schemes for young men at Brandon and Claydon and, I think, at Newcastle—
The training is of different kinds. At Brandon it is residential; at Wallsend and Birmingham it is non-residential.
This year it was hoped that 2,000 young men would be so trained as to be available for service overseas. That was regarded as being a substantial contribution.
What the hon. Member is referring to now is Brandon and Claydon.
The point I am taking is that we are spending considerable sums of national money under these schemes in training British young men at the public expense in order that, when they are trained, they may go overseas and develop their abilities and capacities in other parts of the Empire. I am not quarrelling with men going to Canada or to Australia, nor do I wish to discourage the policy of encouraging emigration for those who desire it. Why do not the Government look at home? Why do the Government so persistently shut their eyes to the fact that we have national resources here at home and a great national heritage which could be drawn upon to meet the problems with which the country is faced. We have here in our own land problems crying out for solution which are overlooked because we have our eyes at the ends of the earth. Last December we had the Report of the Commission dealing with the question of land drainage. In that Report the Commission stated, as a result of their survey of the conditions of lack of adequate drainage for agricultural land in this country, that there are no less than 4,362,000 acres of land in England and Wales, or approximately one-seventh of the total area of land now used for agricultural purposes, dependent for its fertility upon arterial drainage. The productive value is not less than £4,000,000. There are 1,750,000 acres which are said to have suffered from flooding due to defective obstructions and other causes, and 500,000 acres are capable of being improved by small drainage schemes and the clearance of ditches. Here is a piece of agricultural work of national urgency affecting agricultural land which is in imminent danger not only of becoming less productive but of going out of cultivation altogether. This is valuable land which in years past has been productive and could easily be made productive again. We are spending over £45,000,000 upon unemployed benefit and £40,000,000 in Poor Law relief, £20,000,000 of which goes to people who are able to work if they only had the chance. All that money is being wasted, and yet there are many thngs of national importance requiring attention.
The Commission to which I have alluded refer to 4,000,000 acres, but that only covers the area which was surveyed last year, and which under normal circumstances has been reported as being deficient in regard to drainage. Last winter it was disclosed that tens of thousands of acres in Lincolnshire have been put entirely out of action. Why cannot the Government organise a system under which men may be permanently settled on the land in such areas as those to which I have referred in order that the land may be restored to cultivation? As to the method to be adopted the difficulties are not insuperable. If the owners of the land are not keeping the land in a condition in which it ought to be kept, surely it is a matter of national interest that the State should see that efficiency is maintained. We want food produced, and we want to encourage agriculture. We require the utmost amount of food production we can get, and, if landlordism does not accomplish this, why does the State not do its duty and take over this work?
Does the hon. Member propose in that way to make agriculture profitable in our own markets?
I think the best way to proceed is to increase the number of useful people working on the land. There is no reason why a well-thought-out scheme based upon sound lines of dealing with this problem of land drainage should not develop into an extensive scheme of land settlement, and in that way some thousands of men, for whom at the present moment there is no work in their own industry, might, in the course of a few years, become settled on the land, thus increasing the number of prosperous and useful agriculturists in our own country. After the lapse of four or five years during which the land settlement policy of the Government had been in abeyance, two years ago hon. Members will recall that the latest Land Settlement Act of 1919 was passed and remained in operation up to 1923. That was a grave undertaking on the part of the nation intended to deal with ex-service men who had been knocked out of action as the result of their war service and had been rendered unfit for ordinary employment. Under the Act to which I have referred it was provided that they should have a chance of settling upon the land. That Act was operative until 1923, and then it came to a stop and nothing further was done.
The Government said that they had committed themselves as far as they could go under that Act, and the whole scheme was wound up. In March, 1926, the Government came forward with a Small Holdings Act and said that they were going to establish a new policy. They told us that they were budgeting for a scheme under the new Act which would provide 8,000 new settlements for small holders, and they estimated that 2,000 small holdings would be established each year. In this House we repeatedly asked what was being done with regard to those small holdings, and we were told that a new Bill was going to be brought: in. The 1926 Act was in operation for two years, and at the end of that time in December last year a return was issued showing that 25 councils had submitted schemes for providing holdings, and the total number of small holdings which had been provided was only 136 and 16 cottage homes. We were also told that 17 existing holdings were to be enlarged. After we had been told that the Government were going to budget for the establishment of 8,000 small holdings; in two years we find that the total small holdings actually established is only 136. That is an example of the complete failure of the Government to provide constructive work to meet the problem of unemployment. I suggest that in the direction of dealing with urgent land drainage schemes and the hopeful possibilities of email holdings the Government have a line of action which I am sure would redound to their credit if such a policy was vigorously carried out.
I should not have intervened in this Debate but for some remarks which were made by the last speaker, who seemed to say that if we introduced large schemes of land drainage we should go a long way towards solving the unemployment problem in this country. I listened with great attention to the hon. Gentleman, but I failed to understand how he was going to transfer these men who, he suggested, should work on such a scheme, from the centres of industry, where they are at present, to the largely unpopulated parts of the country where these drainage problems exist.
How are reservoirs made in this country?
It might be possible at a place such as the junction of the Humber and the Trent, which is fairly near to the populous centre of Sheffield, and, as that is one of the bad parts of the country as far as drainage is concerned, there might be something to be said for the hon. Member's scheme there; but when it is bound up, as I understand it is, with the settlement of miners on the land, one begins to think. I have gone into this question, as far as a private Member can, with considerable care, and when one thinks of the small number of people who could be thus employed and settled on the land, and the hon. Member's suggestion that miners who have no knowledge of agriculture should be so settled, I think it will be realised at once that such a scheme is not likely to be a success.
The settlement of ex-service men on the land has failed in many cases. There are many reasons for this, one of which, perhaps the main one, is the fact that, sometimes, the ex-service man and his wife do not like country life; and when one realises how thoroughly imbued with the town spirit miners and their wives are, it is difficult to believe that they will make successful settlers in a part of the country such as that to which the hon. Member has referred. I admit that a proposal like this to settle men in the country is extraordinarily attractive, but when one realises that, in parts of the country where there is no drainage problem and where the soil is fertile, men who have been brought up in agriculture all their lives cannot make a living under our present economic and fiscal system, and are suffering severely in spite of the fact that they and their wives and, in many cases, their children are working hard in these small settlements, it is very difficult to see how the hon. Member's suggestion will solve any of our problems in this direction. I am sorry to say that, because I would welcome any such scheme for settling men on the land. The hon. Member had a quiet hit at the landlords, but, so far as I have been able to ascertain their views, they would be only too thankful to sell, or even almost to give away such land for the purpose of a suitable scheme. Therefore, as far as I have been able to judge, after a considerable study of drainage schemes, I must say quite frankly that this suggested scheme for settling, what must be a comparatively few, men on the land, and using the unemployed to dig drains, will only advance the problem of agriculture in this country at a great cost to the nation, and will not solve the unemployment problem. I do not know what the effect would be if the scheme were combined with a change in fiscal policy, but, as it is at present enunciated, I fail to see that it would result in any advance.
I should have thought that every agriculturist in the country, and certainly those who are continually speaking on behalf of agriculture in this House, would have welcomed any proposal for dealing with what I believe everyone who knows anything about the land of this country knows is a very great evil indeed, and one which cannot be dealt with by the ordinary local authorities or by the landlords. I do not think it is feasible for the ordinary landlord to deal with the results of floods and of years of neglect of proper drainage. Further, if what the hon. and gallant Member for Louth (Lieut.-Colonel Heneage) says is at all correct, the future development of agriculture, about which there is so much talk, must be a hopeless business altogether. As a townsman, I do not take so gloomy a view about the land of this country. I believe that both the land and the labour of this country are among the best in the whole wide world, and, if both had been treated properly and given proper opportunities, there would be a much larger proportion of the land under cultivation than there is at the present time.
As to miners not being able to do this particular kind of drainage work, I should have thought that anyone who knew anything of the mining industry, and of the men employed in it, would have known they are just the sort of men who would be able to do the kind of work that drainage involves. I think someone proposed in this House a year or two ago that we should take young men, especially from the towns and mining villages, in much the same manner as we took them during the War to train for service overseas, and put them into encampments to clear up what is at present derelict land, and bring it back into proper cultivation. When people talk about giving land away, I would suggest that, if there are any landlords who are prepared to give away land, they should give the land to the nation or to the local authorities, many of whom, no doubt, would find a decent use for it, especially if the State undertook the task of bringing whatever land was not at present fit for cultivation back to a condition in which it would be fit for cultivation. Although I live in East London, I have enough experience of dealing with land by men from the East End of London to know that almost derelict land, by the labour of organised unemployed men, has been brought into a state of cultivation equal to a garden. Classical instances of that can be seen at the present moment at Laindon in Essex, or at Hollesley Bay in Suffolk. The fact that both those estates were derelict when they were taken over has convinced me that, by proper organisation and a reasonable expenditure of money, it would be possible to do what I have just suggested bring land back to a proper state of cultivation.
May I say that, when speaking of miners, I thought I made it clear that I was not suggesting that they were not suitable for any scheme of drainage work, but merely that they were not suitable for settlement on the land?
I question that statement, because, if it be right, it is also true they are not fit for emigration, and, therefore, another of the propositions of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite "goes west." They are continually telling us that we should encourage emigration, and a month or two ago one noted Tory newspaper, advertised the fact that it had taken 100 or more young miners out to the Colonies, where they were doing very well on the land. I think, myself, that with proper organisation and a proper backing—the same kind of backing that those men get abroad—the same miners would do very well in this country. I would not be so certain about this if it was mere theory, but I have seen, not one, but scores of men taken off the streets of London. Men who have had a very little training at Hollesley and many of them are now doing well either in Canada or in Australia or in this country. I am certain more would be able to get their living on the land in this country if we paid as much attention and spent as much money on them as we do to send them abroad. It is just a question whether we have the will and the money and are determined the job shall be done.
The Minister of Health treated us with the same kind of cynical, contemptuous indifference that he always does. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] That is the effect on me. The right hon. Gentleman has certain talents in that direction and I recognise them. He treated the Debate in the thinnest manner possible and rode off at a tangent about Russia and about safeguarding and took up very little time in defending his own administration. I should have thought any intelligent member of the House would know that in Russia Socialism has not yet been applied. I have been challenged why do I not live a Socialist life. I cannot live a Socialist life because I am living in the midst of a society that determines very largely the kind of economic life I am obliged to live, there would be no reason for Socialists to carry on propaganda or to come to this House and talk about Socialism if they could live as Socialists apart from their fellow men and women. In exactly the same way no one nation—that is why Socialists are international—can become a purely Socialist nation with the rest of the world living under competitive conditions. I should have thought any ordinary student of the Bolshevik theory would understand that is the reason why the Third International carries on propaganda for international revolution. The sort of nonsense the right hon. Gentleman and others have talked, that the fact that Socialism does not exist in the way we Socialists want it to exist in Russia is an argument against our fundamental position, shows that hon. Members have not taken the trouble to understand our position. We Socialists have never said that by a single Act of Parliament you could bring in Socialism. We have never said that because we believe Socialism would remove social and industrial evils, that could be done by producing a Bill and getting it passed through Parliament. The whole of our argument is that society is progressing and never stands still, and the only logical move forward is a movement towards more social control and development and towards co-operation as against competition.
10.0 p.m.
The whole of this Debate to-night is on a subject which 25 years ago would have merited very little attention and which the Government of the day would have scorned to take any part in whatever. What has brought the subject right up to the front, as it is to-day? In 1911, when I made my first speech in this place, I remember quite well how the whole House, except a handful of Labour men, refused to admit the right of Parliament even to discuss the question, to say nothing of taking action in regard to unemployment, but within a very short time this House had to interfere with the right of private individuals to do what they like with their own by insisting upon a Government scheme of national health insurance, and so on. In those days it was a handful of trades and industries that felt the pinch of unemployment. It was mainly people employed in unskilled trades or employed around the docks, the victims of casual and intermittent employment. To-day we are faced with an entirely new situation. It may very well be, as the right hon. Gentleman said, that the War has accentuated the evil but those who have been preaching to us about what is done in America are going to have a very rude awakening within the next few months. We know now that all the boasted prosperity, with no unemployment, in America is coming to an end and that the problem of unemployment is having to be faced in that great country just as it is here, and that proves the truth of my right hon. Friend's statement that unemployment is inherent in the capitalist system and is part and parcel of that system, and that you cannot get rid of it until you get rid of the system. You are now faced with a fact that not, relatively speaking, a handful of men in the East End of London or around the docks at Liverpool or Southampton are clamouring for work. The basic industries of the country are in so parlous a condition that when the biggest champion of private enterprise in the House, I mean the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carmarthen Boroughs (Sir A. Mond), spoke shortly before the end of the Session every word he uttered was in favour of some national action for the mining industry.
What is the use of talking of the benefits and the glories of private enterprise when you have to come to this House and ask it to find the means of rescuing private enterprise from the ruin the system has brought upon it? The right hon. Gentleman himself told us that someone had got to take out of the industry all those men who are at present not wanted there. But it is not merely the mining industry that you are faced with. The people in East London and similar districts have an almost age-long experience of this evil they are experiencing it in exactly the same manner as it is being experienced in South Wales. When you have taken your 200,000 miners out, what are you going to do with our 10,000 in Poplar and the East End? What are you going to do with those myriads of people in West Ham who are being starved into mere existence? What are you going to do with all the other men and women up and down the country for whom admittedly there is no room? There are a million men out of work and a million who are under the Poor Law. There are 200,000, we are told, in the mining areas. You are going to shift a few of them about, but what does the Government propose to do with the rest of them? Nothing at all. You just fasten on this one big, basic industry and one big bunch of men and talk of them as if that was the whole problem. They are only a tiny fraction of the problem you have to deal with. The Government are bankrupt of any proposal for dealing with them. In their hearts, if they believe in anything, they believe in Protection. In their hearts, they believe in the theory of tariffs, the keeping out of foreign goods. In their souls, they know that it has been tried, found wanting and been rejected by this country time after time, and that it cannot save us. It is not even saving the United States. Within a very few months that country will be faced with the problem of what to do with the tremendous accumulation of goods that goes on day after day. The right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister—I have quoted him from platforms many and many a time—made a speech which any Socialist could have made diagnosing the position. He put, it this way. He will forgive me if I put it in my own words instead of his; if I misrepresent him I will give way for him to correct me. I think it was on the, King's Speech in the first Session after he was made Prime Minister. He said the problem we had to face was this, that during the War our power to produce had so much increased because of the necessities of the War, that when the War was over and all the men had come back from the War we had more men and more machinery to do the work. Our markets were contracted because of the War. His remedy was that we should have more emigration to the Colonies so that the new Colonies would grow food in exchange for our manufactured commodities. But he went on to say that always there is great suffering during a great period of change, just as there was when we turned over from hand-made goods to machine-made goods. That is the right hon. Gentleman's statement.
That is quite true.
I agree with that. The right hon. Gentleman has not carried it any further. He says somebody has to suffer. You cannot say that in the same way to-day and have it accepted as it could have been said and accepted in 1834. You have had elementary education since 1870, and the fact that I am standing here talking at this Box, and that my comrades are here too, proves this, that the working people are not going to accept the doctrine that, because we are able to produce more goods and because we have got more machinery to get more goods, they have to suffer and endure poverty and destitution. They will never accept that, and whether this House finds a way out or not, somebody will have to find a way out. We are net going to submit—I am an old man and in the very few more years that I have to live I will not submit without a protest to the doctrine that, because we are able to produce more wealth, those poor people among whom I live have to starve as their fathers did. The right hon. Gentleman had in his mind, I am sure, something that was written of the times of which he spoke when those people who could only work with their hands found themselves driven out and died, "clemmed to death," as they say in the North amid the hills and dales of Lancashire and Yorkshire. People will not submit to that position to-day.
The Socialist movement does not come to you and say, "Pass an Act of Parliament and everything will be well with you." We are not such lunatics as to say that. You may very well put that forward as what you imagine to be our proposition. What is it that we have asked you to do at least three times? We have asked this House on three occasions to let us have a round-table talk through a Committee representative of all parties to discuss what can be done here and now to deal with the situation. How have we been replied to? "No, no useful purpose will be served." Very well, we put our proposition. My hon. Friend the Member for Dundee (Mr. Johnston) almost on the last day of the last Session put this proposition from this Box and asked that a Committee should be appointed—a Committee on which you would be in a majority—in order to discuss how we should deal with this situation. The Government refused, and now they have come forward with a. King's Speech which has nothing in it at all except a few words leaving the situation exactly where it was except, as I shall show in a minute or two, very much worse.
We have said this to you over and over again. First of all, we know that we cannot transform this system from a competitive one to Socialism immediately, and so industry must be carried on. We have asked you over and over again to remove some of the hindrances that keep industry back in this country. The rates! What does anyone trouble about the rates until they get to a point where people cannot pay them? We have asked you to deal with the question of royalties and with the question of the improved value that comes to land only by the presence of population. Take our district of Bow and Bromley. We are owned by a very decent man. He cannot help being born a Viscount. He was born that way, and he has the estate. I am not saying a word against him as an individual, but he takes out of our poverty-stricken district hundreds of pounds each year and gives us nothing back in return. If you sat round a table and you were face to face with that sort of thing there would not be a man who could defend it. Why should I as an individual pay him £20 a year for the privilege of living in a house that he never built and never paid a halfpenny towards building, simply because he says he owns the piece of land on which the house is built. I pay the rates. I help pay for everything. Whatever improvements are there, I help pay for them. We think that that is one of the things that should be socialised right away and that we should have all that increment value for the service of the community. If that were done in our district, in Poplar, it would help our rates very considerably indeed. It would help the rates in the mining areas, and if they could rate mining royalties, the mining areas would be helped still further. I would not have said so much about Socialism except for the sneering references of the Minister of Health.
Let us come to the Minister of Health's own position. Here he is faced with a situation similar to that with which the 1834 Commission had to deal. Whatever may be said about Socialist administrators, whatever may be said derogatory of any of us in regard to the expenditure of public money, this House has allowed to grow up in working-class areas a burden which none of those areas are able themselves to bear. This House often discusses poverty as if it were only a matter of unemployment but it is not that. There are questions of old age, of sickness, of widowhood, of orphanhood and it is always where the poor are that those questons are most acute. How is the Minister of Health facing up to the situation? The right hon. Gentleman paid not the least attention to the speech of one of the most respected Members of this House, the hon. Member for Abertillery (Mr. Barker). That speech, I thought, would have moved a heart of stone but the Minister of Health passed it by with his usual cynicism. Because we cannot produce statistics that children and men and women are dying of starvation, it is not to be assumed that starvation is non-existent. Every doctor will tell you that the results of malnutrition and under-feeding do not show themselves at once and you are laying up for yourselves trouble from this point of view—that when the children who are being half starved to-day in these districts grow up to be young men and women they will have no physique worth the name.
My own district is going down. I would like the Prime Minister to listen to this. I concede you everything as to extravagance. You can get up and prove whatever you like—that we paid this man 2s. and that man 5s. more than we ought to have paid. But take it big and broad and wide, what is being done by the members of boards of guardians who have been administering on what are called Labour and Socialist lines? In my own district, the death rate among children was about 150 per thousand and we reduced it to 70 per thousand. If we had never done anything else, I should be proud of that. I should be proud if we had saved the life of only one child. If a baby were lying there in this House dying for want of something, there is not a man here who would not want to give the child whatever was necessary to it; but when we are dealing with these matters and the children in question are away from us, hon. Members do not see these things. What is the Minister of Health doing in these circumstances? The House of Commons and the country have put these burdens on local authorities. When we have not enough money to go round in districts like Abertillery, Monmouthshire and Glamorganshire generally, what does the Minister do? I admired his cynicism this afternoon. Had he been on the stage I would have admired it more. Had he been acting a part I would have felt like giving him a jolly good cheer when he stood at that Box and said that he had two Socialists and an Independent and that these three were doing this, that and the other as if they were doing it of their own free will.
The right hon. Gentleman knows these men have been doing this simply because he has informed them that there will be no money unless they do it. They are obliged to reduce the lighting of the streets. The collection of refuse from the streets is only to be done once a week instead of twice a week, and the right hon. Gentleman boasts of what he has done. The Minister of Health! He might rather be called the Minister of Death. That is what the Minister of Health has sunk to in this country. This man stands here and tells us that these three officials are carrying out this work as if they were doing it of their own free will. There is also the cutting down of the salaries of the teaching staff. That is what we have come to in this, the richest country in the world. These dis- tricts are in their present situation through no fault of their own and all the Minister can do is to put a pistol to the heads of the council and compel them to administer their areas in this awful manner. I can think of no other word for it. I expect the right hon. Gentleman's assistant will stand there to-morrow or Monday and say that the Poplar Board have been brought to heel. And so they have; but not because they believe in the policy of the right hon. Gentleman but because they can do nothing else. When men and women are put in the position of capitulating or allowing the Minister to come in to do what he has done at West Ham, they have to choose the least of two evils.
Yesterday this House in regard to Lord Haig did a thing which I think proves that there is good solid feeling and respect for any man whom they regard as a great fine figure of a man. We have in the Poplar district to-day 1,200 ex-Service men, and their wives and dependants on Poor Law Relief. They have been there for months. And why? Because this nation will not find them work. If this House has any respect for the memory of Lord Haig, or for the men who went out and fought in the War, it would say, "We will go into Committee of Supply tomorrow and find the necessary money, at whatever cost, to take these men and their wives and families off Poor Law relief." With regard to young men, sons of the men who went to the War, many of them have never had a chance to work. I spent the last recess trying to understand the situation of each individual unemployed man in my Division. I have interviewed hundreds of men and women and as they have gone through the Committee rooms I tell you my heart sinks. The longer they are kept on Poor Law relief the more demoralised they get; but it is a choice of starving them, or partially starving them, and giving them Poor Law relief. You give us no other option. The Minister of Health says, "Strike them off," and we have the district auditor sitting at the board table, with a dozen assistants, going through every case. In some cases, where there is a family income, he strikes them off, and also in some cases where there is a pension.
The Minister of Health has the impudence, positively the impudence, to say that local government has not broken down. In unions such as Poplar the board of guardians do not exist. They have no power to administer. The district auditor sits in the board room, picks out cases, determines what they are to have and the function of the boards of guardians is wiped out. In addition, inspectors of the Department go round visiting cases. I do not object to that, it should have been done a long time ago, but the point is that there is no policy at all except the old policy of 1834; that is pushing people off the Poor Law. What does it mean? In Abertillery it means that the people who want light for their streets, the refuse cleaned away, and the teachers who want decent salaries for their work, have to pay for unemployment. They have to bear the burden of what ought to be a national charge. They are called upon to bear the cost of something which is not theirs at all. You cannot put the responsibility for the manner in which work at the docks is organised on Poplar. You cannot put on the shoulders of the people of Monmouth and Glamorgan, the responsibility for the plight in which the mining industry is. We make you a present of everything you can bring against us in regard to extravagance. When that is done, when you have proved all that, the problem remains for you to deal with it, and the manner in which the right hon. Gentleman is dealing with it is not the way to deal with a social problem of this kind.
I will give another reason for saying that, apart from my principles as a Socialist. I had to hear the evidence on which the Report of the Poor Law Commission was based. Read the story written by Lord George Hamilton in the Majority Report of the Poor Law Commission, and then read the Minority Report that Beatrice Webb and Sidney Webb wrote, and you will find agreement in the two Reports that this proposed penal treatment or continued penal treatment of people because they are poor, leads nowhere at all. The whole workhouse system of 1834, even Mr. Disraeli in his day cursed as any decent man who knew anything about it must have cursed it. That system broke down because in our people, even in those days, there was something that would not tolerate it. The working people will not tolerate it to-day. Although it is true that the right hon. Gentleman, with the strength of the majority behind him, will smash our Amendment and get a majority to back up the Minister of Health in the nefarious work he is carrying on against the poor, I am certain that the nation will reap what it is sowing. Small-pox is a very deadly disease when it gets going, and so are typhoid and other diseases. How is it that you have not had these diseases during all this recent bad period? It has been because people's physique has been maintained. Every man knows that the best guarantee against disease is a healthy body and healthy mind. Food is one of the necessary things for a healthy body. The best safeguard against small-pox—
Vaccination.
Vaccination without food would not save anyone from smallpox, and everyone knows it. I would like to ask the hon. Gentleman, who is a good doctor, "Do you agree that muck and refuse should be left about the streets and be removed only once a week instead of twice a week?"
No.
Then the hon. Member is on my side. I want to bring the House back to consider the case of the ex-service men. Everyone knows my views. My own friends know that I gave time and energy and thought on behalf of the victims of the late War, long before the British Legion was started. I had in my room this morning first a woman and then a man, both of them victims of the War, and both of them taken off the relief list by the auditor, acting not exactly on the instructions of the Minister, but on a general sort of policy. It may be that I am wrong in saying that they should have assistance out of the Poor Law. Will some hon. Member tell me what is to be done with them, and who is to look after them? When I came back to the House I remember that Dr. Macnamara, every time he spoke in a Debate about unemployment, talked about the "living wall" that stood between us and the enemy in Flanders. Will some of you tell me what you really think ought to toe done with those unemployed ex-service men and the mothers of ex-service men? I hear you are to discuss and perhaps to determine that none of them shall have votes; but I do not want to discuss that now. If you are to take their votes away, are you also to take the means of living away from them? Are you to be more ruthless than the Germans were? Are you going to starve them? None of us here has ever felt the pangs of involuntary hunger; I never have. Yet here are men who have; you cannot deny it. I could parade them by thousands, men who fought in the War.
Go out of this House along the Embankment to-night, or go along any cold night. You will say, "They are only the wastrels." Yes, but they are wastrels who fought for you in France and Flanders, many of them. Go through the casual wards in this country. In 1905 I took the late Lord Long, Mr. Gerald Balfour, and two or three other leading members of the Conservative party to Laindon and Hollesley Bay and we spoke to the men about their past. The overwhelming majority of them had fought in the Boer War. Both the right hon. Gentlemen I have named, for whom I had a high respect because of their humanity, hung their heads, and so did all of us. What will you say to these men when you meet them, and you must meet these men? I am sorry the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) is not here to-night. I aim sorry many of those who also made speeches during the War and wrote articles at the end of the War are not here. There was one period towards the end of the War, when the Archbishop put me on a committee with many other people, when I had a vague sort of idea that we were going to change. I had a sort of notion that the world, even though it seemed rather insane to think if after that bath of blood, was really going to be better, and that we would never have to talk about the kind of things that we are talking about to-night. I turned up the other day a report of the first speech which I made in the first Parliament which I attended, and I could repeat that speech, and it would be apropos of the present situation. Is it not a dreadful thing after all the terrific, heroic things that were done in the War? I am not one of those who think that the comradeship of the trenches and battlefields is of no account. But where is it to-day? When the men came back wounded and bruised many women of the upper class and the middle class, to their honour, engaged in nursing work and washing up and in many other kinds of occupations. Is it not worth the while of this country now to do a very big thing for the whole of the common people? I had an idea to-night of reading out a passage from Ruskin, but I have not brought the book. I had not pluck enough to put the book into my pocket, but there is a passage in "Unto this last" in which he says to all those who read his book: "Raise the veil boldly; face the light."
Let us face the light and lift up the veil. I do not believe, I cannot believe that the Prime Minister really does not mean some of the big things that he says. I listened to him yesterday, and he carried me away with the speech he made, but it is true that words count for nothing unless they are followed by actions. He cannot do anything alone, and I cannot do anything alone—God knows I would do it if I could, and perhaps he would too—but collectively this nation could do what it pleased, if we would but give up the idea that mere wealth, the making of money, was the only thing that mattered. In the War you said it was necessary for all classes to sacrifice together. I say that it is worth while that the nation should all sacrifice together to get rid of poverty and destitution out of the land. I have lived with it all my life, and people say that I am coloured by it. It has not yet envenomed my mind, and I do not think it will now, as I am too old, but it has done this for me—it has made me feel that the only thing that is worth while for this country is to take this problem in hand in exactly the same manner that it took the War in hand, and to determine that poverty shall cease.
I believe, as I said in this House once before, that our people have the most God-given opportunity ever given to any nation to build a new world, if we would give up fighting merely as partisans and settle down, without any preconceived notions whatever, to take hold of the wealth and the power to create wealth that there is in this land and determine that we would use it first, as Ruskin says, to give life to the common people; and then, because of your greater brain power, because you are cleverer than they, show them the way upward to a better and a nobler life. I am not a pessimist either. I believe that the future of the world is with the working people of this and other countries. I believe that my countrymen, the common, ordinary "hewers of wood and drawers of water," those who bear us on their backs by their industry, because they have got education, because they have got knowledge, because they are gaining understanding, and because they have got political power, will in the end win their way, but it is a long road of suffering. If you have the goodwill to be joined with them, you can shorten that way and hasten the day when poverty will be no more.
Comment has been made to-night from the benches above the Gangway about the meagre attendance at this Debate, and I do not think I should be wrong in saying that the reason for it has been that, unfortunately, as in so many of these Debates, it has been barren of any constructive suggestions, from those who brought forward the Amendment, for the improvement of trade and industry in this country. I do not propose to deal in any detail with the speech of the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury), except just to say that all of us in this House are moved, as he is moved, by the spectacle of the man out of work, and nobody could represent a constituency such as mine, where the full effects of that senseless seven months' stoppage in the coal trade are to-day so plainly visible, without sharing the feelings which he has expressed and without feeling the deepest sorrow, as I do, with the lot of those men and their wives. If I may offer a suggestion to the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley it is just this. I think, looking back upon that struggle in 1926, that he, and indeed every reasonable observer, will agree that it was a totally unnecessary struggle; and if we all, in each of our political spheres and in whatever walk of life we may be, would only learn the lesson which that struggle has taught us, I think that we shall have achieved one step forward towards solving this problem of unemployment. It is embraced in the words co-operation by all parties, and certainly by all sections in industry. There was at least one remark made by the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley which interested me. I was really refreshed and glad to hear that he no longer wants in this country the same sort of Government that we see in Russia.
I repudiate any idea that I ever belonged to the Communist party; the members of that party have written as much against me as any man in this country.
I do not want to misrepresent the hon. Gentleman, and I withdraw it. At least, I was under the impression that at one time he wanted to support Russia with the taxpayers' money. I have stated that we have had no constructive suggestions from the Members of the Opposition to-night towards the solution of this problem of unemployment. I was hoping that we should have heard something about the new proposal of the Socialist party, which is so largely advertised outside the House of Commons, but which we are not hearing very much about anywhere else. I refer to the surtax. As far as I understand what is at the back of the mind of the Socialist party, they have really only two suggestions to put forward towards a solution of the problem of unemployment. One is the nationalisation of all our principal industries, and the other is this brilliant idea of adding 2s. in the £ to unearned incomes over £500 a year. I think it is rather important that we should pay some attention to this proposal in the House of Commons, because it is a proposal which has been deliberately put forward to the electors throughout the constituencies, and unless we examine it, and see what is at the back of it, we must regard it as something in the nature of a political bribe. I should like to know what is at the back of the minds of the people who put it forward. I was hoping to have heard it to-night, but we have not had it. If the suggestion really is that in the middle of all our difficulties to-day, when our industries are struggling, and I think with some measure of success, to get on their feet again, a Party is to come forward with a suggestion that all income represented by the savings of the people in excess of £500 per annum is to bear a surtax of 2s. in the pound in addition to the existing taxes, I say that is a proposal which can- not commend itself to any one who has the slightest idea of sound finance, and is a step in a backward direction. So to throw our intricate machinery of finance into the melting pot, to disturb existing taxation, to interfere with the savings of the people upon which the success of industry depends, seems to me to be little short of folly.
For a brief moment I wish to refer to the old policy of the Socialist party, the policy of nationalisation. Am I unfair in saying this: Is it a reasonable thing to put forward as a contribution towards solving the problem of unemployment the nationalisation of our banks and of our principal industries when we know perfectly well that wherever nationalisation has been tried among the other nations of the world it has proved a complete failure? Only the other day I was examining the finances of Queensland. I find that under a Labour Government they have been indulging in a system of what they call State trading, and the experiment, as one quite- expected, has proved a disastrous one, and is going to impose heavy burdens upon the taxpayers. It is common knowledge that the experiment made by America in the nationalisation of her shipping has proved a disastrous failure, and it has been so in the case of Norway; and it passes my comprehension how anybody can seriously put forward a proposal which involves an operation upon the trade and industry of this country which wherever it has been tried elsewhere has resulted in the death of the patient. It is necessary for it to be stated, and re-stated, that that proposal is unsound in principle and has proved to be a disastrous failure where-ever it has been tried.
We shall not get back to better and brighter days by undermining the foundations upon which this nation has for centuries stood firm, and I do ask hon. Members of the Labour party who have taken part in this Debate to remember, as the Minister of Health so rightly said, that unemployment is a disease which is to-day afflicting not only this nation of ours but every nation in the civilised world. Its cure cannot be found in quack remedies, certainly cannot be found in expensive palliatives; the only satisfactory solution, as I said before, will be found when we can be assured of a willing effort and a continuous effort on the part of employers and employed to solve their own problems, to get down to economic facts, and by all pulling together, to improve, as they can improve, the organisation of the various industries of the country.
After giving prolonged study to the trade and industry and finance generally of this country, I am certain I am right in saying there are signs to-day of marked improvement in industry. I do not take that from the speeches of the chairmen of the "Big Five." I take it from my own observation, and I am certain that it is so. To-day the ray of sunshine which we are waiting for is only just visible on the horizon. It depends on each one of us—for politicians have an equal share in it—how far progress is made in the direction of increased prosperity. If the Debates on the subject of unemployment will only result—as I think there are signs in the House of Commons to-day that they are resulting—in a better realisation of the fundamental economic facts, and the real necessity for a long period of peace, then I, for one, am not hopeless about the future, and I hope it will not be very long before this haunting figure of 1,000,000 unemployed in our streets is considerably and permanently reduced.
Motion made, and Question, "That the Debate be now adjourned," put, and agreed to.—[ Mr. G. Edwards. ]
Debate to be resumed To-morrow.
Privileges
Ordered, That the Committee of Privileges do consist of Ten Members.
The Prime Minister, the Attorney General, Lord Hugh Cecil, Mr. Clynes, Mr. Arthur Henderson, Sir Ellis Hume-Williams, Mr. Ramsay MacDonald, Sir Robert Sanders, Mr. Macpherson, and Lieut.-Colonel Spender-Clay nominated members of the Committee.
Ordered, That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers, and records.
Ordered, That Five be the quorum.—[ Sir G. Hennessy. ]
Adjournment
Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[ Sir G. Hennessy. ]
Adjourned, accordingly, at Eight Minutes before Eleven o'Clock.