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Commons Chamber

Volume 213: debated on Monday 13 February 1928

House of Commons

Monday, February 13, 1928

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

Oral Answers to Questions

India

Riots, Calcutta

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he has received a report of the rioting which took place at Calcutta on Friday, 3rd February; and if he can give the House full particulars?

My Noble Friend has so far received brief telegraphic reports, but they contain no further particulars than those published in the Press.

Wunthanu, Burma

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India the reasons for the action taken by the Government in ordering the suppression of the Wunthanu in 11 villages in Burma; and whether these institutions are recognised as lawful associations?

The local Government have found it necessary to declare unlawful certain associations in villages in the Tharrawaddy district owing to the activities of their officers and members in connection with the withholding of tax-payments.

Sandhurst Committee

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether a decision has been arrived at by the Government with regard to the findings of the Indian Sandhurst Committee, presided over by Sir Andrew Skeen, Chief of the General Staff in India; and, if so, the terms of the decision?

I fear I cannot add anything at the moment to the reply I gave the hon. Member for West Leicester (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence) on the 5th December last, of which I will send the hon. Gentleman a copy.

Is there any likelihood of the publication in the near future of these details?

In all probability an announcement will be made by the Government in India, in the Legislative Assembly, in the course of the present Session of that Assembly.

Indian Cavalry (Lance)

asked the Undersecretary of State for India whether the lance is to be abolished as a weapon of war in our Indian cavalry?

I have not heard that any proposal has yet been made in India on this matter.

When is it proposed to do away with the cavalry themselves?

Statutory Commission

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India what response from the Indian political leaders has been made to the manifesto of Sir John Simon issued last Tuesday; and what is the present position with regard to the Statutory Commission?

I have no information beyond what has appeared in the Press. According to this, while certain gentlemen, representing the Congress, Nationalist and Independent parties, and Sir Tej Bahadur Sapru, have declared their continued determination to hold aloof from the Commission, the Commission are proceeding successfully with their plans of establishing contact with other representative persons of influence.

Did not the Noble Lord explain to this House a little while ago that in the special circumstances of the case it was impossible to obtain representative Indian opinion by a Commission which was less numerous than one of 20 persons, and is not the offer of the right hon. and learned Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) in itself contra- dictory either of the Noble Lord's statement or inviting insufficient representation?

Is it not the case that the offer of the right hon. and learned Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) really goes almost further than any proposal made in this House to give the greatest amount of representation to Indian opinion?

I say with great respect that I think it would be rather inappropriate to have a discussion on this question in view of the fact that the Statutory Commission has been invested with full power not only by His Majesty's Government but by the unanimous vote of this House and of another place. I think it right that they, rather than this House, should discuss the matter of procedure.

Will the Noble Lord kindly explain to me if the right hon. and learned Member for Spen Valley has discovered that seven Indians can represent Indian opinion, whereas the Noble Lord told us that not fewer than 20 could represent it?

Disturbances, Madras

asked the Undersecretary of State for India whether he will inform this House as to the events leading up to shots being fired upon unarmed demonstrators at Madras on 3rd February; the number, respectively, killed, injured, and arrested on that occasion; and what efforts were made by the police authorities to disperse the crowd by other and less forcible methods?

My Noble Friend has not yet received sufficiently detailed reports to enable me to reply fully to this question, but fairly detailed accounts have appeared in the Press. His latest information is that the casualties resulting from the firing by the police were one killed and three injured—one seriously. The reason for the firing was that a large crowd was stoning the police and declined to disperse. The crowd had previously burned a motor-car, and according to the Press had looted a shop which had remained open.

Will the Noble Lord kindly inquire if it is not now the settled policy of the officials in India always to have some shooting?

Palestine

Communist Propaganda

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether there is evidence of Bolshevist activity in Palestine directed against this country among either Moslems or Jews?

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been drawn to the spread of Communist propaganda in Palestine and to the inflammatory leaflets that are being circulated there; and if he can say from what sources these publications originate?

I am aware that there is a small Communist party in Palestine, containing both Arab and Jewish members, which is carrying on a certain amount of propaganda against the British mandate. Its activities are also directed against the Zionist movement. I believe the influence of the party to be small; it obtained only 6 per cent, of the votes cast at the most recent elections to the Council of the General Federation of Jewish Labour. The High Commissioner is fully alive to the position and I am satisfied that matters may safely be left in his hands.

On a point of Order. With regard to Question No. 7, is Bolshevist activity a recognised and definite term, having a definite meaning?

Is the position, then, that this small group of Communists in Palestine is advocating the same policy as the extreme die-hard section of the Conservative party in this country?

Revenue

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will inquire as to the exact nature of the system of raising revenue now adopted in Palestine in lieu of werko?

Will the right hon. Gentleman make inquiries about this matter, because there have been notices appearing in the papers that werko have been abolished so far as the towns are concerned and will be abolished for the rural districts?

I know that the matter is under consideration, but as far as I am aware werko has not yet been abolished.

Will my right hon. Friend explain what "werko" is?

Quarantine Station, Haifa

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, now that the Palestinian loan has been subscribed, steps have been taken to modernise the quarantine station at Haifa and to establish it in a healthy situation?

An expenditure of £E2,200 has been incurred on the improvement of housing conditions at the Haifa quarantine station. As regards the healthiness of the site, I would refer the hon. and gallant Gentleman to the reply which I gave him on the 28th of March, 1927.

Does that mean that this extra expenditure has been incurred on the present site, which is next door to a malarial swamp and lake?

Yes, I think it is on the present site, but the hon. and gallant Gentleman will recollect that I did not take the view that it is quite so near to anything malarial as he suggests.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I myself was able to throw a stone from Haifa station into these swamps on the spot, and is it not time this station was removed to a healthier place? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Agriculture Minister would not allow his pedigree herds to be put there and that a new farm was made for them up in the hills?

I have no knowledge of the hon. and gallant Gentleman's stone-throwing capacities.

Now that the right hon. Gentleman has returned like a giant refreshed, will he see into this matter?

If my hon. and gallant Friend's capacity was 100 yards, would that be considered sufficient?

Sierra Leone (Platinum Deposits)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will make a statement with regard to the platinum deposits which have been found in Sierra Leone; whether he will cause inquiries to be made as to the conditions under which the right to mine has been offered to speculators; and whether he will consider the desirability of retaining control of these deposits in the interests of the Protectorate, and particularly for the benefit of the natives?

I can add nothing to the official announcement of the discovery which appeared in the newspapers on the 4th January. The grant of prospecting and mining rights is carefully regulated by the local law, and there does not appear to be any need for making inquiries on the subject. A new Minerals Ordinance has been passed recently with the object of vesting in the Crown full control of the deposits, and of securing a fair share of their value for the public revenues.

Kenya

Game Preserves (Tsetse Fly)

asked the Secretary of State for Colonies whether he is aware that game preserves in Kenya, under the existing ordinances, encourage the tsetse fly, and operate against native and development needs; and whether he will take steps to have such laws amended?

I have no reason to suppose that the existence of the game reserves in Kenya has the results referred to in the question, and I am advised that there is no evidence available to show that these insects are increasing or spreading anywhere in the colony.

Has the right hon. Gentleman seen a letter which appeared in the "Times" about two months ago from his colleague, the hon. Member for Blackburn (Sir S. Henn), who is an authority on East Africa, directing his attention entirely to this question of the dangers from these game preserves in Kenya?

No, I am afraid I have not seen the letter, but so far as I know there is very little tsetse fly in Kenya itself, and I think not in the neighbourhood of the game preserve areas.

Is there not a great deal of destruction of native herds by lions from these game areas?

Native Labour (Commission's Report)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he has received a copy of the Report of the Commission on Native Labour in Kenya in 1927; and, if so, whether he can make it available to Members of Parliament?

A copy of the Report will be placed in the Library of the House; but I should explain that the Acting Governor has pointed out that it cannot be accepted as an expression of the opinion of the Government of Kenya, but merely as a statement of facts based on statistics in regard to the present labour supply on estates, and of views expressed by the members of the Commission in regard to conditions outside the estates.

Alienated Land

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies the area of the land alienated to Europeans in Kenya for the years 1923–1927, respectively, and the area that it is proposed should be so alienated in 1928?

I am not in a position to give the figures for 1927 nor an estimate for 1928, but the areas of grants registered in the preceding years were as follow:—

Is the alienation of land continuing during the inquiries of the Commission, or is it being held up until the Commission has reported?

May we take it that all the land which is alienated is not alienated in fee-simple, but on lease at reviseable rents?

Native Reserves

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has yet received a reply to his inquiries upon the rights of the natives occupying lands within the native reserves, as disclosed in the case of Douglas Morangi; and what action has been taken with a view to resettling the people dispossessed under the judgment in this case?

I have received a reply from the Governor, who informs me that the matter of native claims to individual rights over land will be taken up as soon as the question of the reserves generally has been settled by the proposed Native Lands Trust Ordinance. As regards the second part of the question, the Governor reports that, in accordance with Kikuyu land law, Douglas Morangi and his party had no rights to the land in question; that the Government, in compensation for the burning of the huts, offered, without prejudice or any admission of liability, a sum of shillings 2,000, which is stated to be far in excess of any damage that could possibly have been sustained, but that the natives concerned refused to accept any alternative to their reinstatement on the land, a course which the Colonial Government was unable to approve.

Cannot this matter be reconsidered, as these people have been deprived of land to which they consider they have a perfectly good title and are now wandering about without any lands at all, so that the amount mentioned is no recompense for them?

I understand these particular natives do consider that they have a claim to this land, but other natives of the same tribe, including the chief of the tribe, also consider that they have an indefeasible claim to this land, of which they have need. The majority of the displaced natives have alternative homes and means of occupation in other parts of the same tribal area, and the older people have been allowed to continue with the consent of the chief in the land which they occupy.

Having regard to the large amount of land that is being alienated in Kenya, would it not be possible to find equivalent land for these people who have been dispossessed?

It is not a question of dispossession. This is a problem concerning natives living inside the same reserve. Certain natives are claiming a kind of individual ownership on the ground of occupation, which tribal custom denies them.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that no natives are allowed, in Kenya, to own any land outside the reserve?

Abyssinia (Attack on Caravan)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Government of British Somaliland has made any representations on the subject of the award given as to the Abyssinian attack on their caravan; what was their nature; and what action is being taken on them?

His Majesty's Government, in consultation with the Government of Somaliland, is considering the allocation of the compensation awarded by the Court of Arbitration. I am not prepared to make any statement on the subject at present.

Is it not a fact that the local government were not satisfied with the method of finding the award, and is the constitution of that arbitration court to be considered either as desirable or as a precedent in similar cases?

Dead Sea Salts (Concession)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any further negotiations have taken place between the Colonial Office and Mr. Novamesky in regard to the Dead Sea potash concessions; and, if so, what has been the result?

The Crown Agents for the Colonies, acting on behalf of the Palestine and Trans-Jordan Governments, have continued their negotiations with Major Tulloch and Mr. Novomeysky. The results of the negotiations to date are now under examination by the two Governments concerned.

Would the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Communist organisation has made any protest about this concession?

Iraq (Akhwan Raids)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what casualties the Iraq forces sustained during the recent raids by the Wahabis; and whether the Royal Air Force took any part in the various engagements?

So far as I am aware no casualties have been sustained by the military forces of the Iraq Government during the recent Akhwan raids. The answer to the second part of the question is in the affirmative. The Royal Air Force have on more than one occasion succeeded in locating the marauders and in engaging them with good effect.

Amani Institute

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether research work is now being carried out at the Amani Institute?

East African Loan Act

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what has now been done to give effect to the provisions of the East African Loan Act?

Sanction has been given for expenditure under the loan amounting to £3,086,642. Additional proposals are under consideration.

British Guiana

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies when it is proposed to introduce legislation dealing with the constitutional position in British Guiana?

Has the deputation from the elective members of the combined Court arrived in this country from British Guiana?

Rubber Export Restriction Scheme

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies why no mention was made of referring the Stevenson restriction scheme to the Committee of Civil Research when the continuance of this scheme was announced on 1st February, 1928?

The announcement of the 1st February related solely to the percentage which might be exported for the quarter beginning on that date. The reference to the Committee of Civil Research did not arise in connection with that announcement.

Was the Advisory Committee on the rubber scheme consulted before that intimation was made?

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the promise given by him that long notice would be given to the trade before any change in the Stevenson scheme was carried out still holds good; and whether the Governments of Ceylon and Malaya have been asked to overhaul the machinery of this scheme with a view to increasing the efficiency of its working?

The assurance which I gave was that if any change in the scheme were to become necessary I should endeavour to give as long notice as possible. The answer to the second part of the question is in the affirmative.

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the anxiety and uncertainty in the rubber trade owing to the intimation that the Civil Research Committee had been requested to inquire into the working of the rubber restrictions scheme, he will give an assurance that long notice will be given of any alteration, so that the trade may be able to carry on in the assumption that the present scheme will continue in force for at least 12 months?

I cannot anticipate either the nature of the Committee's Report or the action which the Government will take on its receipt.

May I ask if the Prime Minister cannot give some assurance that for the current year the trade may be allowed to continue under present conditions?

Has the Prime Minister had his attention called to a report that there is grave dissatisfaction with his statement about the appointment of a Committee in regard to the rubber question, and that there was much resentment here because it was known to American speculators before his statement was made?

Were the leaders of the rubber-producing industry consulted before this decision was arrived at?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the suddenness of the announcement of this particular examination has had a rather inconvenient effect upon business in the City of London, and, under these circumstances, will he consider the advisability of consulting those concerned in the industry before making any announcement as to the result of this present intended inquiry?

It is extraordinarily difficult to draft an announcement on any subject that shall not be sudden.

Is it not the most important thing to consider the users of rubber, who want cheap supplies?

asked the Prime Minister why the intimation that the rubber restriction scheme was to be referred to the Committee of Civil Research was not issued from the Colonial Office; why this information was known in New York before the City of London; and who was responsible for the issue of this information?

The appointment of this Inquiry was announced by my Office rather than by the Colonial Office because it had reference to the Commitee of Civil Research which is a Cabinet Committee. The announcement was issued about 6 p.m. on 8th February and was expressly marked

"For publication in the Press on Thursday morning, 9th February."

If the notice was made known in New York on 8th February, it can only have been by a misunderstanding of the terms on which it was issued to the Press representatives.

In view of the very serious situation which has arisen over this information, and in view of the great difficulty and uncertainty in the City of London, does not the right hon. Gentleman think that it would have been much better to have issued this information from the Colonial Office, who would have avoided issuing it at a time when New York could get the advantage over the City of London?

No, I think it was perfectly proper for my Office to issue that statement, and had the terms of issue been complied with, no trouble would have arisen.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman recognise how detrimental it is to the interests of British merchants in the City of London that they are put in an infinitely worse position than the people in New York, and will he inquire how it was and why it was that this mistake occurred, and deal with those responsible?

Is not the explanation that his Department overlooked the difference in time between London and New York?

Has the Prime Minister made any attempt to find out who was responsible?

Has the Prime Minister's attention been called to the remarkable fact that no sooner was it announced that the question was to be referred to a capable and impartial Committee than the whole trade came to the natural conclusion that the scheme would be at an end when that Committee reported?

Was the Advisory Committee at the Colonial Office consulted before this intimation was made?

I shall want notice of that question, to be certain, but my impression is that they were.

I am sorry to press the right hon. Gentleman, but as there has been a repetition of leakages of information, will steps be taken to deal with those responsible, and especially with those who have been responsible for this leakage of information?

I do not know whether my hon. and gallant Friend has ever attempted to trace such a thing, but it is most difficult to discover.

Irish Free State

Compensation Claims

asked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs the reason for the decision of His Majesty's Government that sums recommended by the Irish Grants Committee to be paid in settlement of claims shall not be paid in full but shall be assessed on a much reduced scale?

I hope to make a full statement on this subject, in presenting the Supplementary Estimate to cover these payments, during the course of the next few days, and I would ask the hon. and gallant Member to await this statement.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that while Irish Loyalists to-day are only to receive six shillings in the £, those who took up arms against the Government and whose houses were destroyed, receive full and immediate compensation; and what is the reason for this differentiation?

That is a matter which will naturally arise when the Supplementary Estimate is discussed.

British Ex-Civil Servants

asked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether he can now inform the House as to the result of the negotiations between the British Government and the Government of the Irish Free State as to the ex-British civil servants in Southern Ireland, some 400 in number, who are still waiting to retire under Article 10 of the agreement for a treaty between Great Britain and the representatives of the Irish Free State, but who are unable to obtain the pensions to which they are entitled, as the compensation committee set up to bear their applications has not sat for over two years; and whether he is aware of the serious hardship which this long delay has occasioned to these ex-servants of the British Crown?

I hope that it will be possible for an announcement on this subject to be made in the course of the next few days.

Trade and Commerce

Empire Marketing Board (Expenditure)

asked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs the total amount already expended out of the Empire Marketing Board Fund; and the estimated amounts under the general headings of expenditure in connection with the work?

The total actual expenditure brought to account in the books of the Empire Marketing Fund from the Board's appointment in May, 1926, to 31st January, 1928, is £376,900.

Of that total, about two-thirds have been expended on publicity activities of various kinds and about one-third on scientific research and economic investigations. In addition the Board have incurred considerable commitments in respect particularly of scientific research. Details of the Board's expenditure and commitments in that field, which together amount to a total of £821,825, were given in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Ormskirk (Mr. Blundell) on 12th December last. A White Paper will this year, as last, be circulated in due course giving in greater detail the information, desired by my hon. and gallant Friend.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say how much money has been spent on bill-posting, including coloured pictures?

Two-thirds of the actual expenditure up to date has been on publicity, but the greater part of the com- mitments actually incurred by the Board have been in connection with scientific research.

Is the right hon. Gentleman of opinion that the money is being well spent both from the domestic and the Imperial points of view?

Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us the proportion spent on home markets and Imperial markets?

Textile Industry (Committee of Inquiry)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether any demand has been received that a statutory committee should be set up to ascertain the reasons which have brought about the present depression in the cotton trade; and, if so, from whom this request has been received?

A resolution suggesting the appointment of a committee by the Government was received in December from the United Textile Factory Workers' Association.

Is the hon. Member aware that the cause of this depression in the cotton industry is perfectly well known? Is it not the fact that the real difficulty is to find an agreed solution? May I further ask him, does he not think that such a solution can be better found within the industry itself than by the appointment of any statutory committee?

The President of the Board of Trade explained on Thursday last that the whole matter was being investigated by a technical committee of the Manchester Chamber of Commerce, and, therefore, the point the hon. Member raises has been met.

Would it not be better if the Government undertook a policy in the Far East which would enable us to keep our customers instead of losing them?

Cereals (Imports)

asked the President of the Board of Trade what were the quantities of wheat, barley, oats and maize imported here in 1927 from countries other than British Dominions; what were the quantities produced at home; and if he will give the approximate labour costs of these various supplies expressed in percentages or otherwise?

The answer takes the form of a table of figures, which my hon. and gallant Friend will perhaps agree to my circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the answer:

The following table shows the quantities of the total imports of wheat, barley, oats and maize into Great Britain and Northern Ireland in the year 1927, which were consigned from foreign countries, and the production of wheat; barley and oats in Great Britain and Northern Ireland in the same year.

Description.

Total Imports into Great Britain and Northern Ireland cons gned from Foreign Countries, 1927.

Production in Great Britain and Northern Ireland, 1927.

Tons.

Tons.

Wheat

2,919,000

1,494,000

Barley

685,000

957,000

Oats

199,000

2,240,000

Maize

1,953,000

*

* Maize is grown in this country only to a very small extent and as a fodder crop. No figures of production are available. Maize is grown in this country only to a very small extent and as a fodder crop. No figures of production are available.

With reference to the last part of the question, I regret that I am unable to furnish the information desired by my hon. and gallant Friend.

Gum Arabic (Imports)

asked the President of the Board of Trade the total amount and value of the gum arabic imported into this country for the last two years; and what are chief sources of supply?

All the available information has been prepared in tabular form, and, with my hon. and gallant Friend's permission, I will circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the information:

The following statement shows the total quantities and declared values of gum arabic and gum tragacanth imported

Countries whence consigned.

1926.

1927.

Quantities.

Declared Values.

Quantities.

Declared Values.

Gums and Resins:

Cwts.

£

Cwts.

£

Arabic and Tragacanth:

Persia

12,966

150,314

17,029

214,042

Iraq

4,225

57,167

9,070

118,532

Egypt

10,664

22,679

6,832

14,755

Other Foreign Countries

7,611

23,111

3,027

16,075

Total Foreign Countries

35,466

253,271

35,958

363,404

Anglo-Egyptian Sudan

114,722

286,639

88,698

206,451

British India

3,565

19,799

4,134

43,004

Other British Countries

581

1,205

3,179

5,698

Total British Countries

118,868

307,643

96,011

255,153

Total

154,334

560,914

131,969

618,557

Figures showing separately the imports of Gum Arabic are not available. It is understood that, among the countries for which particulars are shown above, the principal sources from which Gum Arabic is consigned to the United Kingdom are the Anglo-Egyptian Sudan, Egypt and British India.

Agriculture

Corn-Transplanting Machine

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether his attention has been called to recent experiments in the transplanting of wheat by the aid of machinery; and whether he proposes to take any steps to investigate the suitability of this process for adoption in this country?

I have recently read reports of experiments carried out in Germany with a German corn-transplanting machine. This is probably the machinery to which my hon. Friend refers. The agents for the machine in the British Isles have notified me of their intention shortly to arrange for trials to be made in this country. Such trials will be closely watched by my Department.

Foot-And-Mouth Disease

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether the

into the United Kingdom during the years 1926 and 1927, distinguishing the principal countries whence consigned:

Dominions of Canada, Australia and New Zealand are now free of foot-and-mouth disease; and whether, in view of the outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease in this country, which have been traced to the importation of meat from South America,, he will consider the desirability of limiting the importation of meat from overseas to supplies from countries which are free from foot-and-mouth disease?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. With regard to the second part, in recent years no definite proof has been obtained that foot-and-mouth disease outbreaks in this country have been due to infection by meat imported from South America. Suspicion has, however, arisen that certain outbreaks have been due to cloths in which imported meat was wrapped or to bones from such meat. To guard against this danger Orders have been issued which require meat, bones or other parts of a carcase, or cloths in which foreign meat has been wrapped, to be boiled or disinfected before they are brought into con- tact with animals. As a further precaution negotiations have been in progress for some time with the South American Governments which should result in the adoption in those countries of measures for preventing the introduction of infection into Great Britain.

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he has any information to give the House as to the cure for foot-and-mouth disease reported to have been discovered in France; and whether any officials or bodies representing the Government have been invited to take part in the tests or to examine the results?

I have seen in the Press reports of the discovery in France of a new cure for foot-and-mouth disease, but I have no official information on the subject. No invitation has been received by the Ministry to attend the tests. I would remind my hon. Friend that our policy is eradication by slaughter, and would point out that this discovery seems to be merely a cure and not a preventive.

Alongside the present policy which the right hon. Gentleman is carrying out, does he not think it worth while making rather fuller inquiries as to what is happening in other countries?

We are, through the Foot-and-Mouth Disease Research Committee, doing everything in our power to keep abreast of scientific developments, but we are searching for a preventive. Long experience has shown us that, when we use cures, while the animals are being cured, the disease is so infectious that it is broadcast throughout the country.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman once again whether he will consider the advisability of offering a really large reward for some system of preventing this disease? Is it not clear that if some large reward were offered, there might be a chance?

I am advised that the method of offering a reward is not likely to lead to results in these scientific investigations, and we are not stinting the necessary resources to enable the Foot-and-Mouth Research Committee, which is presided over by Sir Charles Martin, Director of the Lister Institute, to find some method of prevention.

Beet-Sugar Factories (Effluents)

asked the Minister of Agriculture what, if any, progress has been made towards solving the problem of' the disposal of the effluent from beet-sugar factories in such a way as to avoid any menace to the health, sporting facilities, and general amenities of the surrounding population?

I have been asked to reply, on behalf of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research. Satisfactory progress is being made with the experiments which are being conducted by the Department in the biological treatment of the waste waters of beet sugar factories. The data accumulated in the course of a semi-commercial scale trial at one of the factories during the manufacturing campaign just closed are now under consideration. While promising results are undoubtedly being obtained, it is as yet too early to say whether the experiments will lead to an economic solution of the problem. It is further understood that at most of the factories additional plant has been installed for the improvement of the effluent.

Is the Noble Lord aware that the object here is not to make the effluent harmless, but to prevent it coming into the river at all?

Colleges and Farm Institutes

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether his Department exercises any powers of control, advice, or suggestion over the methods and curricula of the various agricultural colleges or county farm institutes throughout the country; and, if so, what is the general policy followed or amied at in the exercise of such powers?

The Ministry of Agriculture has no statutory powers of control over agricultural colleges or farm institutes, but it possesses the influence naturally derived from its position as a grant-aiding department. That influence is exercised not infrequently by way of advice or suggestion.

It would be impossible to explain within the limits of a reply to a Parliamentary question what is the Ministry's general policy, but it is set out in the reports of the Intelligence Department of the Ministry for the years since the Armistice, and particularly in the report for the years 1919–21, of which I am sending a copy to my hon. and gallant Friend.

Land Drainage

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he intends to introduce any general Bill to deal with land drainage this Session; and, if not, whether he proposes to take any particular steps to deal with the Ouse watershed?

The recommendations of the Royal Commission on Land Drainage are of a very far-reaching character, and I can hold out no hope of general legislation this Session.

I am dealing with certain petitions from the Ouse Drainage Board with regard to a continuation of the Suspensory Order and otherwise, but the main problems connected with the Ouse area must now be considered in conjunction with the Report of the Royal Commission.

Are we to understand from the right hon. Gentleman's answer that nothing is going to be done during this Session to relieve the situation so far as land under water is concerned?

No. We are going to proceed with certain amending Orders in the Ouse area, and our existing policy in the form of grants to certain areas will continue.

But was not one of the vital Clauses in the recent Commission's Report to the effect that by no sort of piecemeal legislation could we deal adequately with the problem of land drainage; and does not the right hon. Gentleman think the Government ought to do something tangible to find employment for those who are out of work?

If the hon. Gentleman will read my answer, he will see that it is in the sense which he has suggested; it is that we cannot deal with the Ouse problem by special legislation. We must recognise the objection of the district to be made an exception, and we must wait until we are ready to deal with the whole country.

Is the right hon. Gentleman adopting all ways and means to deal with this problem at the earliest possible moment?

We are giving careful examination to the Report of the Royal Commission, and I will make an announcement on the subject as soon as I am in a position to do so. It is quite evident that in a question of this size it is impossible to bring in a Bill this Session.

Houses of Parliament (Stonework)

asked the Undersecretary of State for the Home Department, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether any decision has been arrived at with regard to the master builders' report on the facing of the Houses of Parliament; and whether the First Commissioner of Works proposes to adopt the recommendations of the master builders to obtain competitive estimates for typical portions of the work alternatively for restoring in Stancliffe stone and for entirely refacing in Portland stone, as suggested in their Report?

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, what action, if any, has been taken on the recommendations contained in the Memorandum on the defective condition of the stonework at the Houses of Parliament, which was submitted to Parliament in 1926?

The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT
(Lieut.-Colonel Sir Vivian Henderson)

My Noble Friend regrets that he is unable to contemplate the refacing of the building in Portland stone, as, quite apart from financial considerations, such drastic treatment is not considered necessary. As stated in a reply given on 12th December last, the question of the suitability of Stancliffe stone was referred to the Fine Arts Commission, who have reported that, in their opinion, the "weathered" colour of Stancliffe stone will not harmonise with the Anston stone at the Houses of Parliament and must be rejected apart from any question of its durability. An examination is at the present time being made regarding the suitability of various stones, and in the light of recent research, investigations are proceeding as to the effects of possible chemical reactions resulting from the blending of one stone with another. This examination is being carried out by the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, and will take some months to complete. In the meantime arrangements are being made for the necessary survey of typical sections of the building with a view to determining the extent and character of the repairs required. The First Commissioner of Works hopes that by the time this survey is complete, the problem of the selection of a suitable stone will have been solved, and he will be in a position to execute the repairs.

Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman deal with that part of my question with reference to obtaining competitive estimates for definite sections of the work, as recommended by the master builders?

My Noble Friend will certainly consider the possibility of obtaining competitive estimates, but he will not consider it so far as Stancliffe stone is concerned, because that is definitely turned down.

Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware of the existence of a substance used by the Admiralty, the Post Office, and the District Railway for the preservation of stone, which, if used on the stonework of the House, will prevent decay; and will he inquire into this matter?

Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman advise the Noble Lord as to the necessity of using the stone of destiny for this purpose?

British Embassy, Rio De Janeiro

asked the Undersecretary of State for the Home Department, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, what steps are being taken to secure a residence for the British Ambassador in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil?

Preliminary steps have been taken, and a Supplementary Estimate for the purchase of a site for building will be presented to, the House as soon as possible.

Do I take it that a definite site has been fixed upon and a definite building projected?

A definite site has been fixed upon, subject to Parliamentary sanction.

Royal Parks (Cinematograph Films)

asked the Undersecretary of State for the Home Department, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether any applications have been made to his Department for the purpose of taking films showing scenes taking place either in Hyde Park or other Royal parks; and whether such facilities have been granted?

Applications have frequently been received for permits to take cinematograph pictures in the Royal Parks, and permission has been given, on the condition that there is no posing of actors or staging of scenes in connection with film plays.

Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that facilities are granted by the Admiralty, the War Office and the Air Force, and does he not think it would be advantageous to have these films taken in Hyde Park?

No. The parks exist for the convenience of the public. I am not aware that the public are in the habit of using barracks or His Majesty's ships or aeroplanes.

Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman consider the use of these parks being allowed before seven in the morning?

I do not think that would be a suitable time from the point of view of light.

Unemployment

Benefit Disallowed

asked the Minister of Labour how many insured persons were refused benefit at the Quality Street Employment Exchange, Leith, in the months of November and December, 1927, and January, 1928, respectively, and the reasons for the disallowances?

CLAIMS FOR EXTENDED UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFIT considered by the Leith Local Employment Committee during the period 11th October, 1927 to 16th January, 1928.

11th Oct., 1927 to 14th Nov., 1927.

15th Nov., 1927 to 12th Dec, 1927.

13th Dec, 1927 to 16th Jan., 1928.

Claims considered

1,079

841

781

Claims allowed

867

724

665

Claims recommended for disallowance

212

117

116

Grounds of disallowance:—

Not normally insurable and not seeking to obtain a livelihood by means of insurable employment.

14

10

16

Insurable employment not likely to be available

4

Not a reasonable period of insurable employment during the preceding two years.

83

31

43

Not making every reasonable effort to obtain suitable employment or not willing to accept suitable employment.

59

40

27

Single persons residing with relatives

29

22

21

Married women who could look for support from their husbands.

3

1

1

Married men who could look for support from their wives.

1

Working short time but earning sufficient for maintenance.

2

Postponed for a definite period

19

11

8

Statistics regarding the disallowance of claims for standard benefit are not available.

Relief

asked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of the financial position of local authorities in certain important industrial areas, such as South Wales, he proposes to introduce legislation making the relief of unemployment a national charge?

As was stated in the Gracious Speech from the Throne at the opening of the Session, the Government are engaged upon inquiries into the possibility of affording some relief from the burdens of local rates on the producing community. I am unable to make any further statement on that subject at present. But I ought perhaps to point out that a very large part of the ex-

As the reply includes a number of figures, I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate a statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the reply:

penditure for the relief of unemployment is already borne by the national fund established under the Unemployment Insurance Scheme. In 1927, for instance, 36¾ million pounds was paid in unemployment benefit out of that Fund, as compared with less than nine millions paid in domiciliary and out-door relief by Poor Law authorities.

Can the hon. Gentleman say when the result of the Committee of Inquiry will be known?

Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that, in consequence of so many men and women being out of employment, the payments which have to be made by Poor Law authorities in the large industrial centres are crippling them?

That is a point which has been, and doubtless will again be, made the subject of debate.

Miners

asked the Minister of Labour how many ex-miners who have suffered from nystagmus, and who are unable to obtain work, were receiving unemployment pay on the last date for which figures are available?

If this unfortunate section of the community are deprived of their benefits under the Insurance Acts, will the hon. Gentleman take steps to have these figures prepared?

I will certainly give the hon. Member any information that we have, and if he cares to consult with me on the form of question which will enable me to give any information on the subject, I shall be only too glad to do so. If we have any figures, they are at the disposal of the hon. Member.

"Labour Gazette."

asked the Minister of Labour the number of copies of the "Labour Gazette" printed during each of the last two years; what percentage of this number has been supplied to the public, irrespective of those used and distributed amongst official Departments; what was the cost of production each year; and what were the total receipts of sales to the public?

The information asked for by my hon. and gallant Friend is being prepared, and I should be glad if he would repeat his question at a later date, addressing it to the Financial Secretary to the Treasury.

Contributory Pensions Act

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many persons have been refused pensions at 65 years of age in Scotland up to and including 31st January, 1928; and the principal reasons for the disallowances?

Up to the 2nd February, 1928, a total of 6,755 applications for old age pensions payable to insured persons between the ages of 65 and 70 under the Contributory Pensions Act had been refused in Scotland. Of these, 4,386 had been submitted under a misapprehension as to the conditions of eligibility mainly by uninsured women claiming pensions in respect of the insurance history of husbands outwith the age limits or already deceased. The remaining 2,369 applications, representing approximately 5 per cent. of the total claims disposed of, were disallowed principally on the grounds of the applicants' failure to satisfy the statutory conditions as to insurance or age.

asked the Minister of Health how many persons have been refused old age pensions at 65 years of age in England and Wales up to and including 31st January, 1928, and the principal reasons for the disallowances?

The number of rejections up to 2nd February, 1928, of claims for old age pensions between the ages of 65 and 70 in England and Wales was 36,160. The principal reasons for rejection are: shortage of contributions, inadequate length of continuous insurance, age of claimant or, where the wife is claiming in respect of her husband's insurance, age of husband found to be under 65 or over 70.

Are the Government considering bringing in amending legislation to deal with some of these cases of hardship?

I must have notice of that question, but I am not aware of any legislation.

Will the right hon. Gentleman inform the House what is the method of reaching decisions where the applicant has not been registered at birth, and whether difficulties are found as to making doubly sure that a person is of the age?

Public Health

Marriages

asked the Minister of Health whether he has devoted any attention to the report on the marriage of the physically unfit, recently issued by the London County Council; and whether he proposes to introduce legislation on this subject?

My right hon. Friend is not aware of the adoption of any such report by the London County Council.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the report is in to-day's paper, and that this is the Resolution:

"That it should be made illegal for any defective person under a statutory detention Order to marry"?

No, but I have been in communication with the London County Council on this matter, and we cannot find any Resolution or Report such as is referred to in the question. If the hon. Baronet will have a word with me on this matter, I think it may be found that there is some mistake as to the term "physically unfit."

Sanitary Dust-Carts

asked the Minister of Health whether any action has recently been taken, or is about to be taken, by his Department to urge local authorities to use covered sanitary dust-carts, in order to minimise the risk of infection from refuse blown about the streets?

Local authorities are increasingly making use of dust-carts with covers and are encouraged by my Department to do so.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that if he was about the streets last Saturday, he would have been obscured from view by dust flying from these dust-carts?

Fighting Forces (Meat Supplies)

asked the Prime Minister whether he will consider, with the Departments concerned, the desirability of issuing British meat to the armed forces of the Crown on two days per week wherever possible?

I have been asked to reply. I assume that the hon. Member is referring to British home-grown meat and not to meat from the Dominions. If that is so, I regret that considerations of expense do not permit of the adoption of my hon. Friend's suggestion.

In view of the fact that such a measure is calculated to give considerable assistance to agriculture, and that figures recently given show that the extra cost would be much less than was expected, cannot this matter be further inquired into?

We went into the matter, and we found that it would cost £170,000, and I have great doubts whether we would be justified, in all the circumstances, in incurring such expenditure at the present moment.

Poor Law Relief (Destitute Persons)

asked the Minister of Health if he is aware that the Loddon Board of Guardians have passed a resolution to suggest to the chief constable of Norfolk that all constables be instructed that they can advise destitute cases of their right to obtain admission to any Poor Law institution; that an inspector of his Department recently attended the Loddon Board of Guardians, and said that every destitute person had a right to be admitted; and, if so, will he authorise a circular to all boards of guardians in unions where the casual wards have been closed reminding them of this right of all destitute persons, and ask them to communicate its contents to their officers and to post and keep posted a copy of the circular in the porter's lodge or near the entrance to the workhouse?

No, Sir. My right hon. Friend has not received any copy of this resolution or any report from the inspector of his attendance at a meeting of this board of guardians. As regards the last part of the question, my right hon. Friend sees no reason to suppose that boards of guardians are unaware of their duties as regards the admission of destitute persons applying for relief, and on his present information he does not propose to issue a further circular in the matter?

Can the right hon. Gentleman say what is going to happen in the case of men who are travelling from one town to another where the casual wards have been closed down?

If the hon. Member will put that question down I will give him a full answer.

Royal Navy (Submarines)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he has obtained accounts of the attempts at salving the American submarine S 4; whether, in particular, the attention of the Board has been drawn to the full account of the efforts at salvage by Lieut.-Commander Ellsberg, who was present on board the diving ship "Falcon," and Commander Ellsberg's proposals as to salvage equipment, safety appliances, etc., with which all submarines should be fitted; and whether these proposed salvage devices, and particularly the proposed lifting eyes on each side of a submarine are fitted, or will be fitted, to His Majesty's ships?

The answers to the first and second parts of the question are in the affirmative. In regard to the third part, details of Lieut.-Commander Ellsberg's proposals are not yet to hand but will receive the careful consideration of the Admiralty. In regard to the last part, lifting eyes are not fitted to British Submarines, but the question of fitting them is now under consideration.

I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman. Will he be good enough to let me know presently what decision is come to with regard to the lifting eyes, that obviously not being a military matter and not confidential?

Yes, as soon as I can give the hon. and gallant Member any information, I will be very glad to do so.

Persia (Iraq-India Air Service)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, the contents of the last note sent to the Persian Government on behalf of His Majesty's Government; whether it dealt with the subject of the permission to British aeroplanes to fly over Southern Persian territory en route between Iraq and India; what reply has been received; and whether the proposed air route between Baghdad and Karachi is still interrupted?

I am not clear to what communication the hon. and gallant Member refers. The attention of the Persian Government has on several recent occasions been drawn to the desirability of concluding a friendly settlement of the questions outstanding between our two Governments, of which one is the establishment of a civil air service between Iraq and India. Hitherto the attitude of the Persian Government has not permitted such a service to be operated, but negotiations are still proceeding, and I am sure the hon. and gallant Member will understand that I can make no further or more detailed statement on the subject at present.

I am sorry if I did not express myself quite clearly, but did the last Note deal with other matters besides flying rights over Persian soil?

Frankly, I cannot answer, because there has been a more or less continuous exchange of notes. There has been considerable correspondence, and I cannot tax my memory to say what exactly may have been included in the last of the communications which were made.

Will the right hon. Gentleman be able to make an early statement on the whole course of these negotiations, of which the public know nothing.

That depends upon the course of the negotiations. It is obviously undesirable that I should make a statement from our point of view while the negotiations are still proceeding, because it might embarrass their conduct.

Disarmament Conference (Preparatory Commission)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will publish as a Command Paper the communication made by His Majesty's Government on 16th January, 1928, to the Committee on Arbitration and Security of the Preparatory Commission for the Disarmament Conference?

In view of the fact that the Memorandum has been communicated to the Press and that copies have been placed in the Library of the House, I do not think that publication as a Command Paper would justify the expense involved. Arrangements have been made whereby hon. Members who desire copies may obtain them through the Librarian.

Coal Industry

Miners' Nystagmus

asked the Secretary for Mines if he can make the Report of the Committee which has dealt with miners' nystagmus available for Members of this House?

I have been asked to reply on behalf of my Noble Friend the Lord President of the Council. The two Reports of the Miners' Nystagmus Committee appointed by the Medical Research Council were issued as Government publications in 1922 and 1923. Copies have been placed in the Library of the House.

Has the Report of a Committee which has been sitting quite recently, and about which questions have been asked in this House, been issued, and, if so, are there any means by which a copy can be obtained?

Would the hon. Member inform his Noble Friend that we are not referring to the Reports of 1922 and 1923; this question refers to a recent Report?

Nixon Navigation Colliery

asked the Secretary for Mines whether he has any information about the possible closing of the Nixon Navigation Colliery Company's No. 2 pit at Merthyr Vale and the consequent throwing of 1,000 men out of employment?

I have seen a Press report that, owing to lack of trade, this pit is likely to be closed. I have no other information.

Has the hon. and gallant Gentleman had any communication from the firm, or can he get into communication with them to find out whether the stoppage is likely to be a prolonged one or not?

I am afraid that is rather outside my scope. I do not interfere in a question of a company opening or closing its pits.

Boys (Employment Underground)

asked the Secretary for Mines the number of boys between the ages of 14 and 15 years employed underground, and the number of the same ages killed and seriously injured, in the year 1927 in the coal mines of this country?

The number of boys between 14 and 15 years of age employed below ground at mines under the Coal Mines Act who were killed during the year 1927 was 13, and the number seriously injured 79. I regret that I am unable to state the total number of such boys so employed at the present, but the Royal Commission ascertained that the number in 1924 was about 20,000.

Disaster, Whitehaven

( by Private Notice ) asked the Secretary for Mines whether he can give the House the latest information with regard to the deplorable explosion which, occurred on Saturday night at the Haig Pit, Whitehaven?

I regret to inform the House that the information given in this morning's papers that a further disaster has occurred in the Haig Pit is correct and that 13 lives have unfortunately been lost. Those who lost their lives were two of His Majesty's Inspectors of Mines, the colliery agent and the under-manager, a miners' agent, the secretary of the Deputies' Association, one overman and six deputies. It will thus be seen that the party was composed entirely of officials who, after a preliminary inspection of the pit by a party which included the general manager and the senior inspector of mines, were examining the district with a view to opening it for work. The chief inspector and divisional inspector left for Whitehaven immediately news of the disaster reached them, and the following is an extract from a telegram sent off by the chief inspector at 8.5 this morning:

I feel sure that the sympathy of the whole House will go out to the bereaved ones in their terrible loss.

Telephone Facilities, North Lincolnshire

asked the Postmaster-General if he can give the net increase of telephones, exchanges, and call boxes in the rural districts of North Lincolnshire for the last 12 months?

During the year 1927 there was a net increase in the rural districts of North Lincolnshire of about 200 telephones, four telephone exchanges and 10 public call offices.

Will the Department consider the advisability of reducing the amount which is asked for as a guarantee in the case of applications for the establishment of call boxes in rural areas?

The guarantee has to cover the expenses. If my hon. and gallant Friend has any particular case in mind, I shall be very glad to go into it.

Does the Noble Lord think the telephone service would be better carried on by private enterprise?

War Films (Production and Assistance)

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether any applications have been received by the trustees of the Imperial War Museum for the purpose of exhibiting the official war film, the Battle of Arras, in cinemas in Great Britain only controlled by British capital; whether these applications have been favourably received; and whether any arrangements have been made for the exhibition of this film?

As I stated in my reply to the hon. Member for Anglesey (Sir R. Thomas) on the 9th February, an application to exhibit the official film of the Battle of Arras was received from the Tivoli Theatre in November last, and was in due course approved. In December the Capitol Theatre inquired as to the terms of hire for a week's exhibition of this film, but subsequently withdrew their inquiry. No other applications have so far been made for the exhibition of this film. I am unable to state whether the Tivoli or Capitol Theatres, which are registered British companies, are wholly controlled by British capital.

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether, in reply to that inquiry, any terms were given to the Capitol Theatre? They had asked for them.

A few days before Christmas the Capitol Theatre applied for terms. They were asked to state what they required. They did not answer that letter, and a few days later withdrew their application.

Is it not a fact that the Capitol Theatre were not given the terms? Had they been given terms, they were anxious to show the film.

Those are not quite the facts of the case as I understand it. They were asked what they wanted, but as they did not say what they wanted, no terms could be given.

In any future preparation of war films, under the patronage of the Government, will they see that these exhibit the feat of arms for which the hon. Member who asked the question was promoted to field rank?

May I press the hon. Member as to whether it is not a fact that the Capitol Theatre asked for terms and that these were not submitted to them?

No, Sir. I have already said that the Capitol Theatre were asked what they wanted and they did not reply.

Transport

Tramcar Accident, Balham

asked the Minister of Transport whether he has any information as to the cause of the recent accident in Balham in which a London County Council tramcar overturned; and whether he proposes to hold an inquiry?

My officers have been in communication with officers of the London County Council with regard to this accident, with the result that it seems clear that it was primarily due to the temporary absence of check rails at the place where it occurred. I do not propose to hold any further formal inquiry, but I am in communication with the London County Council as to the steps to be taken to prevent the recurrence of accidents of this exceptional nature.

Glasgow

asked the Minister of Transport if he has received any deputation during the past month from the magistrates of Glasgow regarding the problem of transport within the city; and if he intends taking action on the subject, as proposed by such deputation?

I have received certain representations from the magistrates of Glasgow. In common with other licensing authorities, and particularly authorities in Scotland, the powers of the Glasgow magistrates are derived from old Acts of Parliament and are doubtless un-suited to modern conditions of traffic on roads. As the hon. Member is aware, my proposals for the amendment of the law in this respect are contained in the Draft Road Traffic Bill which I recently caused to be circulated.

If the reforms are contained in that Bill, what good is it for the city of Glasgow to be informed that they are contained in the Bill, and yet the Government cannot find time to put these things into action.

Surely the hon. Member is aware that it would be possible for the magistrates of Glasgow to promote a private Bill?

Surely if the Franchise Bill is made non-controversial there will be ample time for this Transport Bill?

Could not the city of Glasgow promote a Provisional Order, and thus obviate the necessity for this extortionate expense of promoting a private Bill?

Is it going to be the practice during the present Session for Government officials and Front Benchers to say that they desire to put the heavy expense of a private Bill on the citizens of Glasgow rather than use the usual Government machinery?

Is it not a fact that the Minister of Transport has the power to deal with these matters under a Provisional Order?

"All-In" Insurance Schemes

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the aggregate amount of benefit paid each year under the National Health Insurance Acts, the Workmen's Compensation Acts, the Unemployment Acts, and the Widows', Orphans' and Old Age Contributory Pensions Act: and whether he is in a position to state the amount of equal weekly contributions required from the workers, employers, and the State, respectively, towards an all-in insurance scheme which would provide benefits equal to those now payable to the beneficiaries under the Acts named?

Full information is not available, but, on a rough estimate, the amount so paid in 1926 was about £100,000,,000. I do not possess the information which would enable me to state the amount of weekly contributions which would be required if an all-in insurance scheme of the nature suggested were adopted. Owing to the differences in the scope of the several schemes, and the conditions involved, I do not think that any useful purpose would be served by attempting to make calculations.

Bills Presented

Housing Bill,

"to amend certain provisions in Part II of the Housing Act, 1925, relating to improvement and reconstruction schemes," presented by Sir Robert Gower; supported by Sir Harry Foster, Mr. Rye, Sir Park Goff, Sir Philip Pilditch, Mr. Gates, Lieut.-Commander Astbury, Mr. Tasker, Mr. Otho Nicholson and Mr. Womersley; to be read a Second time upon Friday, 16th March, and to be printed. [Bill 28.]

Protection of Dogs Bill,

"to prohibit the vivisection of Dogs," presented by Sir Robert Gower; supported by Lieut.-Colonel Moore, Mr. Bromley, Mr. Macquisten, Mr. Thurtle, Captain Arthur Evans, Mr. Sexton and Mr. Radford; to be read a Second time upon Friday, 20th April, and to be printed. [Bill 29.]

Solicitors Bill,

"to amend the Law relating to Solicitors," presented by Mr. Dennis Herbert; supported by Sir William Bull, Sir John Simon, Sir Henry Slesser and Mr. Withers; to Be read a Second time upon Wednesday, and to be printed. [Bill 30.]

Bridges (Improvement and Maintenance) Bill,

"to facilitate the reconstruction of weak bridges belonging to bodies other than highway authorities, and to provide means for the transfer, in suitable cases, of the responsibility for the future maintenance of the bridge or roadway to the highway authority," presented by Lieut. -Colonel Windsor-Clive; supported By Sir Frank Nelson, Rear-Admiral Sueter, Commander Williams and Brigadier-General Brooke; to be read a Second time upon Friday, 16th March, and to printed. [Bill 31.]

Industrial and Provident Societies (Amendment) Bill,

"to amend section twenty-two of the Industrial and Provident Societies Act, 1893," presented by Mr. Arthur Michael Samuel; supported by Mr. Guinness; to be read a Second time to-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 32.]

Orders of the Day

King's Speech

Debate on the Address

[FIFTH DAY.]

Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment [9

"That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, as followeth:

"MOST GRACIOUS SOVEREIGN,

We, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, in Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to Your Majesty for the Gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament."—[ Lieut.-Colonel Lambert Ward .]

Which Amendment was, at the end of the Question, to add the words:

"But regret that no mention is made of measures designed to grapple with the pressing urgency of unemployment, especially in the coal and other basic industries, and its menacing effect on many areas where industrial enterprise is being crippled and local government is breaking down."—[ Mr. A. Henderson .]

Question again proposed, "That those words be there added."

The Amendment, moved from this side of the House, which has been under discussion, covers a number of subjects which have direct reference to unemployment, and, as the Debate has been limited almost entirely to the subject of unemployment, most of what I have to say on this occasion will be limited to that question. If there is any outstanding, vital part in the Speech from the Throne, it is the first paragraph of the last part of the Speech. That paragraph refers to the general industrial position, and contains some repetition of those pious aspirations which, for the last year or two, have done much duty upon Conservative platforms and in Conservative newspapers. The situation, however, in the country, generally, demands something more than pious aspirations. Such aspirations may be tolerated on a party platform or in the Press of the country, but a Speech from the Throne is commonly taken as an outline of the Government's programme for the Session upon which it is entering, and we are entitled to look for and to receive something more substantial in relation to economic and industrial affairs than is to be found in any part of the present Speech. I know that many Ministers regard this subject as a rather tiresome one. I am not sure that the Minister of Labour has been in attendance at all during any part of this Debate—

I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will be sorry to hear that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour is ill in bed.

I am sorry to hear that the Minister is ill, but I was rather tempted to refer to the point because, on many other occasions, when the right hon. Gentleman might have been expected to be here, I have had to comment upon his absence. I very much regret the cause of his absence to-day. I was about to say that, when the Minister of Labour last referred to this subject, when we commenced to discuss it in December of last year, he considered it rather inopportune then to debate the question of unemployment. It would appear that this subject is never timely, and our conclusion is that that view of the Government is held mainly because they have nothing to submit, no remedy to put forward, for the difficulties with which we are confronted now.

Many of the speeches delivered from the opposite side of the House have been in terms of demanding from us our remedy. What, it is asked, has the Opposition to propose? Indeed, the complaint seems to be that the Opposition has not provided the Government with brains to cope with their present troubles. Let anyone examine carefully the Speech from the Throne, and the word "unemployment" will not be found in it. It is as though we had no such problem. This, however, is the first Session for many years in which that word "unemployment" has not occurred in the Speech from the Throne. We may trace the trend from those years, dating back to 1920 and 1921, to 1928, and we shall find that we have travelled, from declarations in the loudest tones and in terms of the greatest promise of action, to this present day when absolute silence is maintained in the Speech from the Throne on this problem of unemployment. For many years those Speeches offered to the country and to the House definite assurances of action—action that has never been fulfilled either in any administrative or in any legislative steps taken by the Government.

The Prime Minister will recognise at least as his own word one word which he will find in the terms of the Amendment that we have submitted. The word "grapple" is not unknown to the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister assured the country that, if his party were returned to power, it would be the first duty of the Government to grapple with the problem of unemployment, and we are entitled to go on repeating, until the country understands it, how shamefully that definite pledge has been neglected and evaded by the party now in power. It is not enough to ask the Opposition for its remedies, for its schemes, or for its proposals; for the truth is that, whenever they have been offered, in either Bill or Motion, they have been rejected by overwhelming majorities on the other side. The. Government has accepted responsibility for grappling with this question. Incidentally, it accepts the pay for doing the job, and leaves the job undone. I know that that is a small sideline to most right hon. Gentlemen in the present Government, but there it is. Solemnly, and after receiving the public approval for the purpose, the Government has entered upon its task, and has evaded its duty.

4.0 p.m.

The Amendment is our indictment of the Government's conduct, and, although I have not heard all of the speeches, I have heard many and have read most of them, and it appears that the line of the Government is to run away from our indictment and hide themselves behind a screen of mystifying words which, in relation to this problem, mean nothing at all. The Capital Levy, the Surtax, Nationalisation, Socialism, Russia—these and the like words have made up the substance of the speeches that we have had from hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite. We are told that there is unemployment in Russia, and the argument appears to be that we must not expect His Majesty's Ministers to do any better in this regard than is done by those incompetents and tyrants who manage the affairs of the people of Russia! We do expect something better. Conditions in Russia are not our affair; they are the affair of the people there. We are concerned with the affairs and conditions of the people of Britain. One hon. Gentleman, in the course of this Debate—a strong supporter of the Government—referred to the terrible burden of the cost of this trouble. The hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft) referred to the cost, and indicated that it was not less than about £100,000,000 a year. I have myself before, on a defensible estimate, used a similar figure. Here we are, then, paying away, in terms of absolute waste so far as results are concerned, a sum amounting to about £2,000,000 a week. Nay, indeed, if that money could be paid away for nothing, the position would be rather better; but we get from our present policy the very worst by-products. We have deterioration of character; the moral of hundreds of thousands of men and women is going; their efficiency is less month by month and year by year, for the purposes either of industrial service or of that standard of citizenship to which they ought to be able to live up. The present policy is really one of paying to keep idleness alive. It is a policy which, as I say, brings its byproducts, for which in turn society has to pay in another form. There has been on this occasion no attempt in any part of this Debate to prove that the position is full of promise, or in any way better than it was last year. One month it may go down, and the next up, but, apart from the effects of the general strike, for long we have been confronted with the fact that there appears to be permanently settled in this country some million people who cannot find a place in useful service, and in the term of their dependants and families, that number represents a small country. There could be no finer problem for statesmen of ability, resource and courage to grapple with than this problem of unemployment.

On this question of numbers, I would like to draw attention to a recent experience, in no way isolated, and to which I refer because it is of general application. Manchester is one of the two greatest centres in the great county of Lancashire which has been very hard hit by this difficulty of unemployment, not only because of continued unemployment but because of very extensive short time, and the city council and the guardians of that city, desperate and embarrassed 'by their troubles, called together in the early part of this year their Parliamentary representatives of every party and assembled in the chamber of the city council to discuss the position with them. On the Live Register, as it is termed, there were 25,000 people registered as unemployed, but, as we were assured both by the Lord Mayor and by the Chairman of the Unemployment Committee, and a Conservative alderman, the actual figure was, in their own words, very much larger than that official figure of 25,000. It is, therefore, clear to us that the figure of 1,100,000, or whatever the official figure may be, does not by many hundreds of thousands represent the actual figure of unemployment in this country.

There are occasions when it serves the purpose on the platform to talk about wasters, shirkers and idlers and men living on the dole, but putting it to the actual test, what do you see? Take an instance of this kind. There was some proposal to clear a certain ground in Manchester recently, I understand, for a greyhound race-course, and there was an advertisement for men to attend for jobs. The following morning, at 6 o'clock, as the capitalist Press reported, 1,000 men were on the spot eager to get work. And so it is wherever the opportunity is offered, the response proving willingness to work if there is an opportunity to secure it. In the course of this experience to which I have referred, the guardians of Manchester circulated a typed statement containing certain suggestions for schemes, and in the course of that statement they expressed this opinion: Now what can a poor corporation do, with the resources which the Manchester City Corporation have, to carry out this duty which the guardians declare is the function of the corporation? Such opportunity as the city corporation had has either been greatly narrowed or entirely taken away, and on previous occasions I have drawn the attention of the Ministry of Labour to the arbitrary and, I think, wholly indefensible ruling by which the Ministry claim the right to withhold grants to the Manchester City Council in connection with schemes of work which they have been called upon to submit. I have had recently placed in my hands by the local authorities in Manchester a list of schemes covering the area of the various authorities interested, showing work to the extent of £1,400,000 which could be undertaken if they could receive, and continue to receive, the support which recently has been cut off by the action of the Government.

As I have followed the speeches in defence of the Government, they proceed upon three lines, first, a plentiful supply of fine phrases about good will. I will say nothing on that theme of good will except to recall the action of the Government in this House in the course of 1927, for what promise there was of the Government making a contribution to any sum total of good will in industry was destroyed by the deliberate and by the partisan legislation of the Government during last year. It appears that there is some promise of the national representatives of industrial interests and commerce coming more frankly to talk with each other, and seeing whether by such talk some better way may be found. But my point is that, judging the Government, not by what its Prime Minister said but by what the Cabinet does, the Government can take no credit for the cultivation of good will in, industry.

Then we have the usual blame for everything thrown upon the general strike, to which I will not refer at this moment, but, as far as the speeches delivered in this Debate from the other side are concerned, the Government remedy for these troubles, as far as it can be applied at all, is the new word for Protection—the Safeguarding of Industries. Well, Safeguarding or Protection in any form may be good for some things, but never for unemployment. It may assist a particular employer or group of financial or manufacturing interests, but as a contribution for solving this economic difficulty, all experience and history prove conclusively that it is no contribution at all. The hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft), for instance, urged that great benefit would result if we could keep out of the country one-third of our manufactured imports. Why one-third? If it be really so good to do anything in that direction, why nibble in this way? Why not keep out all the rest? I conclude that the hon. and gallant Gentleman, in suggesting the exclusion of any quantity of manufactures, did not stop to think of the effect of that exclusion upon dock labour, upon the construction of ships, upon labour at sea, upon pursuits like transport and cartage and the innumerable other forms of activity immediately arising from imports from abroad.

The reason I used one-third was that that would be about the figure which would result from the industries already safeguarded. That is the only reason I gave that figure.

What I have said has already answered that argument of any proportion. It seems to me that those who take this line as a cure for unemployment are under the impression that we can, by laws, somehow or other compel people abroad to limit themselves to only one side of a trade transaction. Trade generally is really the process of buying and selling, and how you can prevent the foreigner from selling to you and at the same time leave him the means to buy from you, is beyond my comprehension. So I say, in whatever way, and at whatever angle you look at that particular line of cure, whatever good it may do in the way of a sectional or individual benefit of certain small groups of manufacturers, it can be no contribution whatever to the great process of finding work for the unemployed.

The hon. and gallant Member for Harrow (Major Salmon), in a speech which evoked the applause of hon. Members on the other side, appealed for more doses of safeguarding, and, having forgotten the effects of his proposal, he turned to the declaration that whenever the Government touches industry, down that industry goes. We cannot have it both ways. If interference with trade and commerce be bad, what is the good of invoking the law to safeguard certain industries and to keep the foreigner out of the British market? In short, if this apparent policy of the Government is to be of any service at all in relation to our unemployment troubles, will the Prime Minister tell us how any degree of Safeguarding can be of the slightest service in the case of industries such as coal, cotton, shipping, or any other of the great, divisions of labour now weighed down by unemployment or by short time? Let us see in what way this process of Safeguarding, this developing policy of the Government can be made in any degree to apply as a remedy for unemployment in the big divisions of labour which are in serious trouble, cotton particularly. Let us see what is the underlying cause of their trouble, especially in view of the answers to questions given in this House on Thursday last and re-echoed here this afternoon. I want to cite, not Labour evidence, but independent evidence from a very high authority as to a first contributory cause of the serious trouble in the Lancashire cotton industry. Mr. Macrosty, who is well known in the world of economics, writing in the Journal of the Royal Statistical Society last year on this very theme, said:

One can at once imagine the inevitable effect of that kind of financial jugglery upon markets and prices. What has all this to do with the Government, it might be asked. If anything whatever has anything to do with the Government surely a proceeding of this kind, in what is the second biggest industry in the Kingdom, should not be a matter of unconcern to His Majesty's Ministers. Indeed before the House rose prior to Christmas, appeals were made from the opposite side of the House for some step to be taken to take note of this financial aspect of the cotton difficulty, and the hon. Member for Stockport (Mr. Hammersley) pointed out that one remedy would lie in the direction of these banks wiping out a sum of about £2,000,000 of overdraft by certain mills now considered to be less remunerative and less productive than the average or than the best mills throughout Lancashire. I ventured the view at that time, in which I am more confirmed than ever, that it is not the habit of banks to behave in that way and to wipe out sums of money to the extent of £2,000,000 which they might have advanced to any kind of trading concern.

There is another aspect of this question to which I ask the attention of the Government. It may be that there is some trouble ahead even more than the trouble of trade depression in the cotton industry. I hope not, but we are faced with the fact that the employers have presented their case to the operatives and to the country, and the case consists of suggestions for a reduction of wages and for an increase in hours. It would appear that the heads of the great cotton industry have learnt nothing from what happened in the coal industry. The operatives, as part of their answer to this step on the employers' side, have suggested an inquiry, and a question was put by a Member on this side, no doubt as the accredited representative of the operatives, asking if the Government would institute and arrange an inquiry. The answer of the President of the Board of Trade is that the matter is in the hands of the Manchester Chamber of Commence. I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that that is quite an inadequate handling of the question, for the cotton industry like most other industries is not a unit. It is not a single factor operating for the good of the community, or even of the particular trade. On the contrary, the cotton industry is an aggregation of conflicting interests and of men who, for the past few years, have separately and col- lectively been considering a way out and have been trying to find some remedy. They have failed to agree. Salesmen, manufacturers, spinners, importers, brokers, dealers, all these great groups of persons have interests which are not in common. I am far from implying that in the cotton industry those interests find a common basis less often than in most other industries, but I ask the Government for a reconsideration of this appeal and themselves to see whether they cannot, by an inquiry which will be impartial, see whether some remedy can be found to lessen the troubles of Lancashire.

A question was put from this side to-day which might perhaps be thought irrelevant, but whether in order or not there was a good deal in it. It was the point that in respect to Lancashire's markets in, say, India and China, the two greatest overseas markets in the world for cotton goods, political policy has had a good deal to do with the loss of our trade. In the case of China, speaking of a time prior to the acute stage of the Chinese trouble when our troops were sent to Shanghai, we exported more than 500,000,000 square yards of cloth, and that volume of exports has fallen down to less than 200,000,000 yards. The greater activity and competence of the Japanese manufacturers does not altogether explain that difference, and I allege that both in the case of China and India, particularly India, political policy has had much to do with the closing of avenues of trade. I would urge, then, that this inquiry should be undertaken by the Government, if only in order that we should see, now that we are faced with this threatened wage reduction, how far any wage reduction could be a contribution to cheaper production or to an opportunity for better markets. In very many of these industries in respect to a great many of our manufacturers, the item of wages is comparatively small when set beside the string of other charges which attend upon very many of these articles that are produced. I do not think the Government can come out well in this pretence and argument about the general strike being the cause of all our troubles, for indeed the lock-out of the miners did by far greater harm to industry. It lasted for months, against the nine or 10 days of the actual strike, and during those months we had the picture of His Majesty's Ministers behaving more like mine-owning partisans and like men appointed specially to protect the interests of the strong, instead of holding the scales evenly as between the combatants.

The answer to these appeals for industrial peace, for an economic Locarno, is in the fact that nearly always when industrial peace has been disturbed in recent years, the disturbance has been due not to workmen asking for more but to employers trying to insist upon the workmen taking less. So far as at this moment there is any threat of trouble in cotton, woollens or any other section of trade, that trouble is due to intentions already announced by imposing further reductions in the workers' wages. There is perhaps one exception, and that exception is not without its lessons. I refer to engineering. For no one will question—I am certain the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour would corroborate my statement—that in many branches of the engineering trade the employers could easily concede, without any serious loss to themselves or damage to trade, an advance in wages to a very large number of their employés. Demands are being pressed from the workmen's side for what I think are quite justifiable concessions in trades which have afforded substantial profits during the last two or three years. We, therefore, look upon unemployment as presenting us with results which are ruinous because of lack of competence and policy on the part of this Government. Our view is that the cost of tolerating continued idleness is greater than would be the cost of paying wages for useful employment. We have proofs of capacity to do better. In swelling profits, in higher revenue returns, in the growing number not only of Income Tax payers, but of Super-tax payers, we have proof of this country being not a poor but a fairly well-to-do country, in which it is true there is a large number of very poor people. We shall not quietly tolerate the undeserved poverty of those who work side by side with riches which are not deserved by many of those who have them, and accordingly we move this Amendment as a protest against the empty prophecies and the inaction of the Government which has had all the means to do its duty but lacks the will to undertake it.

I think there is a general measure of sympathy in all parts of the House with hon. Members, especially on the benches opposite, who represent the black spots of industry which undoubtedly exist, especially in two or three special industries. There is much sympathy with regard to those Members in what they put forward in the House with regard to their own particular localities, but I join issue with hon. Members opposite when they attempt to paint the whole of our country far more black than I consider is justified by the facts. In the last four years we have had an increase in our insurable population of 600,000 people. Every one of those, broadly speaking, has been absorbed in industry. We have also succeeded in reducing by 2 per cent., in round numbers 220,000, the total number of unemployed. In other words, there are in industry now not very far short of a million more than was the position in 1923, and if we can keep up that rate of progress, remembering that the years 1914, 1915, 1916 and 1917 were small years as regards the birth rate owing to the War, we shall find in four or five years that we have made much greater reductions in our present figure of a million unemployed than would now appear probable from the figures. But I want to think for a moment also of the position abroad. Is it the natural stupidity of the Government, or do we find similar conditions applying in countries across the Channel? In any comparisons we must remember two things. In the first place, our country is more highly industrialised than any in the world, except it may be Belgium, and therefore we feel industrial depression more than any other country. We must also remember this, that we have a lower tariff, generally speaking, than any other country in the world. There was a very interesting map prepared by my hon. Friend, the Member for Honiton (Sir C. Morrison-Bell) which was on view last year showing the tariff walls erected around the various countries of Europe. Those Members who saw it will remember that this country and either Holland or Belgium were the two countries which had the lowest tariff walls. That, obviously, is a factor that you must take into account when thinking of unemployment. I have the most recent figures from the International Labour Office. Germany had on the last available date just on 1,400,000 unemployed. Austria, with a relatively small population, had 160,000, which is about the same proportion, Switzerland and Holland, neither of whom were suffering from the effects of the War from which we had suffered, had, Switzerland 9.2 per cent, and Holland 8.7 per cent., almost exactly the same percentage as we had in this country.

Can the hon. Member compare the percentage with Holland and Germany? Is he able to do that?

The percentage in Germany, based on population, is just about 8½ to 9 per cent., and Holland 8.7 per cent. It is almost exactly the same. The United States of America, where conditions are very different, where there is a high tariff wall, and the population is only one-thirteenth of the density of ours, from the last figure I have been able to get, had about 1,500,000 unemployed out of an industrial population of 11,000,000 or 12,000,000. That is very much analogous to our own, though, if anything slightly higher. There was a report in the Press last week that the amount of unemployment in America was very considerably higher than that, and it mentioned the figure of 4,000,000. That shows anyhow that other countries are suffering and have suffered in the past in quite the same proportion as we have suffered, although at the first blush it would appear that we in this country should suffer even more than they for the reasons which I have given.

What do we find in regard to the question of wages? Wages are not a very large factor in every case, but in very many cases they are a very appreciable factor. Obviously, if you want to compete in neutral markets or to sell in this country without any measure of safeguarding the question of the wages paid across the Channel is of great importance. Here, again, I am quoting from the International Labour Office figures of January, the report of which is in the Library. Taking London as being 100 from the point of view of real wages, Berlin is given as 61—three-fifths only of the figure in this country. Rome, Prague, Vienna are all just round about the 50 figure. In other words, the real wages paid in Italy, Czechoslovakia and in Austria at the present time are half ours. I admit that these comparisons must not be pushed too far; I admit that standards of living vary and diets vary.

Yes, they are protected countries, and we are suffering from the fact that they can send to us and we cannot send to them. I am sure the hon. Gentleman will admit that it cuts both ways. [An HON. MEMBER: "They have the same amount of unemployment!"] They have the same number of unemployed. I have tried to point out that every other country in Europe is in the same boat, only that wages there are half or a little more than half the wages paid in this country. I was asked a question in regard to Holland. Amsterdam comes out the best of the eight or 10 Continental countries and shows 83 as compared with London's 100. Amsterdam was not engaged in the War and is very prosperous for certain reasons, but there wages are only 83 compared with our 100.

The right hon. Gentleman who has just addressed the House said a word or two about Russia. I see that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Burnley (Mr. A. Henderson), in reply to an interjection, stated in regard to Russia: words, just over one-quarter of those unemployed receive unemployment donation. They have not a week's gap as we used to have, but a three months' gap in their unemployment scheme. The rates of benefit vary very considerably, but it is not unfair to say that they get about a quarter to a half of the benefits paid in this country.

It was my privilege to listen on some 15 or 16 days of last year to a series of adjectives, that almost strained the bounds of Parliamentary language at times, regarding the Government's Unemployment Bill. The Government were called everything—mean, contemptible and everything else. I could not help wondering when I saw these figures what would have been the adjectives used had we benefited by recent visits to Russia and brought in a Measure based on the Russian Bill. I do not think a three months' gap, just over a quarter receiving benefits, and benefits not half those of our own, would have received very much praise from their hands.

I turn now to the big basic industries. Hon. Gentlemen and right hon. Gentlemen seem only to point to things affecting their own constituencies. I take them from the broad point of view as shown by Board of Trade returns. I notice that the official figure given of the steel output last year is the biggest since the War, over 9,000,000 tons. As regards pig iron, it was within a few thousand tons of the 1924 figure, which was the biggest since the War. [ Interruption. ] Anyhow, these are two really important basic industries. We find in one case the biggest output in the last eight or nine years, and in the other case the biggest output, with the exception of a few thousand tons.

If one studies, as many of us do, the very interesting speeches made each year by the Chairmen of the various Banks, made from a non-political but economic point of view, because with their branches up and down England they can get a better point of view regarding the general economic and financial position, divested entirely of party politics—what does he find? I find the Chairman of the Westminster Bank said, in a speech delivered only a fortnight ago:

I do not propose to follow the hon. Gentleman opposite except to say this. No one desires to under-estimate the improvement with regard to employment. In fact, in the south of the country and in certain new industries there is indeed a good deal of prosperity, but I can assure the hon. Gentleman that those of us who come from areas affected by long-continued unemployment find very little comfort from the fact that in other parts of the country and in other industries there is a great recovery which is not to be found in our own areas. I would ask him to understand that the position is very grave indeed, and that, therefore, an Amendment of this kind is undoubtedly justified. It is an interesting thing, although a sad thing, that there died on the day that His Majesty's Gracious Speech was published my friend Mr. Trevelyan Thompson, who, perhaps had done more than any other single Member of this House to call the attention of successive Governments to the difficulties of these areas. The Government in that Speech showed that at last they were aware of a very great problem in those areas. I do not rise for the purpose of dwelling upon that.

I rise because on Friday last, when, I regret, I was absent in a mining area, the President of the Board of Trade made what I think was a very interesting speech. In this Debate there have been two distinct trains of thought. The right hon. Gentleman above the Gangway and other hon. Members have tried to do what the President of the Board of Trade tried to do on Friday, namely, to pretend that the only issue in this connection is an issue between abstract Socialism and abstract anti-Socialism. The right hon. Gentleman, the Member for Derby (Mr. J. H. Thomas) really got down to business, just as whose who drafted this Amendment got down to business, and got away from Socialism and anti-Socialism' to facts. The President of the Board of Trade, in reply to the right hon. Gentleman, the Member for Derby, said:

I owe the hon. Member an apology. During the week-end I have read a large part of the yellow bound volume, and I will retract what I have said, but I make him a present of this, that having read that volume and having tried to understand it I do realise that there is a third policy, which contains all the disadvantages and none of the advantages of Socialism.

If the cogitations of the right hon. Gentleman over the week-end can bring nothing more than that, all I can say is that it is a very favourable omen for the success of this policy among the thoughtful industrial electors of the country. May I proceed to deal with the right hon. Gentleman's arguments? They were even worse than his metaphors. He said that the King's Speech represented anti-Socialism, private enterprise, and that the Socialist Amendment represented Socialism. May I remind him that it is nothing of the kind? The King's Speech does not represent enterprise. If I were to describe in my own language His Majesty's Gracious Speech, I should call it a royal yawn. So far from being enterprise, it is the very negation of enterprise. I would point out to the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues that the one definite promise in the King's Speech is a promise of agricultural credits, and there, certainly, the Government are not going to proceed along the lines of private enterprise. I would like to forecast this, that when the Government come to apply their scheme of agricultural credits, whatever that scheme may be, they will find two difficulties, and those difficulties will not cut across the lines of Socialism or anti-Socialism, but across actual facts, and they will be these: (1) how to prevent the credits going to landlords who do not cultivate instead of to tenants or owners who do cultivate, and (2) to prevent those credits going to cultivators who are not good cultivators. If the President of the Board of Trade had read the King's Speech, he would have understood that the Government are calling State aid, not Socialism, to aid the great basic industry of agriculture.

I want to call attention to another omission. The great bulk of speeches which have been made have been on the basis of what ought to have been in the King's Speech, but is not there, namely Measures to deal with the basic industries and unemployment. I would call attention to the fact that there are grave omissions from the Socialist Amendment. Let me read it: discuss the yellow book, "Britain's Industrial Future," to-morrow, more Members will be present and there will be more life and actuality in the arguments. I would like to put a few questions to the hon. Member who now occupies the Front Opposition Bench. Was the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Morgan Jones) accurate when he stated on Friday:

May I call the attention of the House to the scheme and to what happened before the Samuel Commission? It is an amazing scheme. That scheme has been called in booklet form, "Coal and Common Sense," but the Samuel Commission thought that it was not common sense, and they tore it to tatters. It was a scheme which proposed, first of all, to purchase the mines on a valuation of £350,000,000, £100,000,000 for minerals. It would be only fair to the miners to say that although the Trades Union Congress and the Executive of the Labour party agreed to that, the Miners' Federation did not. It is the party policy to purchase the minerals for £100,000,00 and the rest, equipment and everything in the mines at valuation for £250,000,000. There is point in the gibe of the right hon. Member for Derby at Mr. A. J. Cook, that when he wants to give evidence for his men, he does not employ one of the intelligentsia from the university, but does it himself. When Mr. Tawney was asked by the Commission:

The hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury) says "Hear, hear." I should be interested to know whether the financial arrangement proposed will work out in that way in the minds of those who work this scheme. Then they propose to run the mines, and it is a very interesting scheme. Is it proposed to run them by a Government Commission appointed by, paid by and controlled by the Government? They are to have a Power and Transport Committee to take over electricity powers and powers of transport. The interesting thing is that they propose to run the mines by a National Power and Production Committee, a most interesting body. One would have thought that if this was really a scheme of coal and common sense that the first thing they would do in selecting a chairman would be to select a gentleman who had some real undertsanding of the whole mining problem throughout the country. What do they propose? They say that the chairman is to be the Minister of Mines. I do not wish to cast any aspersion upon the ability of the hon. and gallant Member who is now Secretary for Mines, but if I were to ask him privately his opinion, it is surely no disparagement to him to say that he would be the last to claim knowledge sufficient to be at the head of the production and distribution of the whole of the coal of this country. That is what they propose.

5.0 p.m.

Hon. Members may say, "If we had a Socialist Government we should not have the hon. and gallant Member as Minister of Mines. We should have a miner." The answer is, that when they were a Labour Government and they required a Minister of Mines, they sent the right hon. Member for Ogmore (Mr. Hartshorn) to run the Post Office, of which he knew nothing, but in which office he did very well. They sent the right hon. Member for Ince (Mr. Walsh), a very able miner, to run the Army, and I believe he did that very well. In the opinion of the Generals he is a very good militarist. When they wanted someone to run the mines they chose Mr. Shinwell, a very able and cute man who began as a tailor in Whitechapel and afterwards became a sailor, although he did not go to sea, not even in a dinghy. He became an organiser of the Amalgamated Marine Union, I think they called it. He was sent to run the mines, and he ran the Ministry of Mines very badly. He had the temerity to come to this House on a certain Friday afternoon and to support a Bill brought in for the syndicalising and the trustification of mines. He was the only Member of his party who dared to do that. The Minister of Mines is to be the chairman under the scheme. The members of the Board were to number 14, six elected or appointed by the technical and managerial side of the. industry, six to represent the men, five representing the Federation, and one other worker, and two members of the Coal and Power Committee. They are to run the mines. When they drafted this precious scheme which is coal without common sense, they evidently failed to understand that if they were to promise higher wages and shorter hours, pay the £350,000,000 and the debt redemption they would want someone to look after the (consumer, so they said, "We will have a consumers' council." They provided for such a council and a chairman, but the chairman was not a consumer; again he was to be the Minister of Mines. I should have thought that he was the last possible person to put in charge of a scheme of that kind. The Samuel Commission rejected this scheme and they gave their reasons why they turned it down. As a matter of fact, when the Socialists go electioneering in the mining areas of this country, pretending that they Have a programme for the nationalisation of mines which is workable, the evidence of the Samuel Commission in Chapter 6 tears their scheme to tatters as a business proposition, and if it was contained in the Amendment to-day I and my friends could not vote for it. The Samuel Commission pointed out that there is another course. They recommended another course, and it is. in line with the policy of the party which I have the honour to represent in this House.

The very interesting Debate to which we have listened during the last two days has ranged very largely over political ground, and when it has not been confined to politics has consisted in good part of giving advice to those engaged in industry by others who have no practical experience of it. We have been told how to stand and where to put our feet. All our various wrongdoings have been carefully exposed, but when we have waited for some practical suggestion to be made no single one has been forthcoming. I take this opportunity, however, of thanking the Government for the statement in the Gracious Speech which shows that the basic change in the position of industry to-day is realised by the Government. The change is this. It is realised that the question of unemployment has largely become national. Far from it being sporadic any longer, it is perfectly clear that in certain industries there will be a permanent diminution in the number of people who will be employed, and, therefore, those engaged in these industries have a right to be considered nationally and have a. right generally to ask for support until they can get into other industries. I do not think it is generally realised that the change which has taken place is a very radical one. It was in progress before the War, and the War undoubtedly accelerated it. It is a change which will remove coal as the foundation of the prosperity on which this country has so long existed, and we have to face that change.

Before I say a few words on the situation generally, I should like to refer a little in detail to some of the things that have been said about coal, and the proposals made to meet coal troubles during the last few days. Whether we like it or not, we have to face the fact that the industry in the future, unless a great alteration takes place in world conditions, will not be able to employ anything like its present numbers. It is possible, indeed probable, that a million will be the utmost which the industry will be able to employ. We have been told over and over again that the coal mines are inefficient, and that we should use every means in our power to increase output and improve our efficiency. It does not appear to be realised, however, that every increase in efficiency and output in the future will depend on conditions which must inevitably lead to a lowering of the number of men employed. While it must lead to a diminution in the total number of men employed, it also inevitably means a lowering of the number of semi-skilled and unskilled men, because it is only by the use of machinery in the future that we can hope for that efficiency which will enable us to compete with our competitors. It is obvious that if you have pits, and seams in pits, which are better than those which are now being worked, that it is more efficient to work those pits and use those which will pay best, leaving on one side those which are not so good. This has already led to a good deal of displacement of labour, and in the future will lead to a good deal more, and with the increase in the use of machinery I am afraid room cannot be found for many men who are being so displaced. These are conditions which one regrets very much, because I am afraid it means the removal in some cases of whole villages, and the shutting down not only of pits but of some small districts as well.

We have to face, also, the very largely increased competition from abroad, and this competition is working very definitely in certain directions. It is assisted by the determination on the part of certain producing nations to have a national production of coal almost at any cost. Such determination is seen to-day in the use which is being made of the Danzic corridor, which has very greatly intensified the competition that British coal has to meet at the moment. One hopes that these conditions will be successfully met in the future, but it does not help the situation for hon. Members of the Labour party to say that we have been giving money away to Germany. If the export of coal, which is now increasing, had not taken place, obviously there would have been a far greater degree of unemployment than there is to-day. The wisdom of doing what we did on other grounds in relation to hours is another question altogether, but to say that we deliberately were giving away money to Germany for no reason whatever is, to my mind, a futile suggestion. I can never understand why such suggestions as these are made. As a rule, the coalowner is pointed out, at any rate as far as he is concerned, as a very selfish and a rather efficient person, and surely he would be the last person to give away money in the way suggested.

I cannot follow the proposal which has been made during the course of the Debate by the hon. Member for Aberdeen and Kincardine (Mr. Boothby). If his suggestions are going to be effective in the coal trade, they would be effective also in a good many other trades; and if his premises are correct, his conclusions should force him to sit on the Labour side of the House rather than on the side on which he now sits. He suggested that we should form, in effect, a gigantic international trust. I think Germany was to be brought in, but Poland was forgotten, and what certainly was forgotten altogether was what would happen to such a trust with South Russia left out. I suppose the future was forgotten altogether, because there is no doubt that one day Russia, when she returns to economic sanity, will certainly become one of our strongest competitors in the production of coal for Mediterranean use. If you are dealing with an international trust which is to settle where coal is to be sold, and the price to be paid for it, you cannot possibly leave out of consideration nations which may come in to the field of competition in the future. And inevitably in any trust the question of quota must come on. On what basis is the quota to be established? If it is to be established, as it generally is, on what was produced previously, then it is a fairly easy matter. But how can you suggest such a basis for a newcomer; how can you suggest the quota based on previous production to a country like Germany,, which has compulsorily to meet the payment of reparations, and which has to produce coal not on a basis of the standard of living in this country, but on the basis of a standard of living which will barely suffice to keep hex people alive? That is the likely basis of coal production in Germany, and if we are to compete on such a basis it would be very difficult for us, who are determined to maintain a very different standard of living. When you get wage conditions more nearly approximating in the countries concerned, then will be the time to talk about such an international combination.

Let us take the implications of the suggestions a little further. The moment you endeavour to set up a commercial treaty of this type between two nations in the way suggested, the whole arrangement for your coal basis would have to be considered from the point of view not only of the industry itself and the standard of living, but from the point of view of every other basic industry. That would be possible only with a kind of United States of Europe. It may be that this will mature in the future, but for the moment we are considering the question of unemployment, and the possibility of the nations of Europe federating commercially is one to which we cannot look forward as an immediate prospect. The hon. Member for Aberdeen and Kincardine made another suggestion, and here let me read from the OFFICIAL REPORT. ward from the depositors in British banks if managers ever followed methods such as the German banks are accustomed to employ. I am surprised that the hon. Member did not look into the intrinsic differences between British and German banks. The average German bank lives on its capital, and deals directly with industry. It is not dependent on its bank deposits at all. In England every banker has to bear in mind—every bank must never lose sight of this—that the money is lent to the bank and that the depositor can demand his money at any moment he likes. If he is displeased with what is being done with his money he would soon demand it. If this is put forward as a suggestion for reform, frankly I cannot follow it.

What I could follow is this: It might be said to the banks to-day, "Take a new review of your whole position in the coal trade and try to make up your mind now and finally how many of these pits you really think are economic and should be allowed by you to go on, and having made up your mind cut your losses here and now to-day, and do give the trade an opportunity for seeing what its condition is going to be like." I could follow that suggestion. That is what one hopes may be done and when it is done it will help the coal trade to understand very much more than it does to-day exactly where it is; one would see what pits are to be closed, what competition is disappearing and what diminution there is in the output. When you have those factors more definitely before your mind it looks a much easier thing than it is when all those factors remain undecided.

Is the hon. Member ready to consider as part of the coal trade the by-products industries?

One cannot deal with everything at once. It is one of the changes in the coal trade that the byproduct industries are so developing that they are taking the place in many ways of a lot of things that coal used to do. That is one of the unfortunate things from the point of view of unemployment that has to be adjusted. The hon. Member raised another point there and it is this: The coal industry generally has been abused over and over again for its lack of appreciation of experiments, particularly in new forms of distillation and so on. We are continually hearing that. But the whole of this carbonisation business to-day has been so taken hold of by the Press and so boomed by a certain class of financier and speculator that we are in very serious danger of being in the position that when the inevitable crash comes there will be a lot of companies which ought never to have been formed and which never represented anything more than the shadow of an idea. When that crash comes those people who have been bitten and whose money has been transferred from honest investors' pockets to a dishonest speculator's bank account, the stink will be so bad that we shall not then get the honest investors' capital that we want for the real processes when these are finally proved. That is one of the things that we in the coal industry feel a great deal and which we say should be considered when people talk to us about not being quick enough. There is too much speed in some directions now-a-days and it would not be at all a bad thing if in the coal industry as well as in other industries people sat down a little to think before they talked so much.

For one moment may I leave the coal industry and ask the House to consider another matter, not from a political point of view at all? I have my definite political point of view. I think Socialism is a gamble and nationalisation a creeping paralysis. But that is not the question. The question is purely an industrial one. What everyone has to face, no matter what Government may be in power, is the finding of employment for the people. The only thing is what form is trade and industry going to take in future, so that we may ensure employment not only for the people who exist to-day, but for the people who may come into existence, say, during the next generation. What I want to insist on as one interested in productive industry and particularly in precision engineering, is that it is not the least bit of good to imagine that by any manner of means, can the home trade alone keep us; it is no good imagining that our home trade, plus our colonial trade, even with colonial preferences, can keep us. The whole basis of our prosperity in this country has been built up on our foreign trade. Then we took up our colonial trade as it came along. If such a basis is not taken in future what is the use of the home market at all? It simply means that you go back to the position that was occupied before there occurred the development which gave us the foreign trade that we have to-day.

Therefore, feeling as I do that in certain circumstances the Safeguarding of Industries is necessary and that preference is useful to a certain limit, what we have to consider is this. I suggest that it would be wrong for us so to orientate any policy that we take a line which, if eventually we should find it to be the wrong one, we cannot get back from. It is of that that I am a little afraid when I hear it said in this House that it is so easy for us, that if we will only confine trade within the limits of the Empire then all the rest can be left to take care of itself. It cannot do anything of the kind. Those of us whom business and interest have taken round the world have had an opportunity of coming in contact, not always officially, because you do not always hear things officially at dinners and at interviews and so on, which are arranged for you, but you do hear when you get among the people themselves—we realise that in Canada, strong as the feeling is for this country, stronger as the feeling is for Canada herself as a nation, yet the very fact that a mass of capital has flowed over from America into Canada has to a very large extent anchored Canadian commercial interests to New York rather than to this country. If anything is true in this world it is that it is not trade that follows the flag to-day but that trade invariably goes whence capital has been supplied. And it must do so in order to pay back the debt it owes.

To some extent one is meeting the same thing in Australia, where the efforts made by America have developed a competition which it is very difficult for us to break down. We are working hard and to some extent succeeding, but still that competition is there and there very intensively. Still more, since the Australians have found it necessary to go to New York for further capital to develop their country, we have to bear in mind that that is a direction which some day may make it much more difficult for us to ask for extended preferences than it may be now. Not only in these directions is it going to be difficult for us, but yet I think in another which the Australians themselves have deliberately chosen for good or ill. They have determined on a standard of life which makes their cost of living very much higher than the cost of living in the rest of the world. When we ask them to accept, through: our schemes of emigration, people to fill up the empty spaces of Australia and people who, we hope, will become customers for our own manufactures, we have this to remember, that speaking of trade in its broad aspect, it is going to take a very long time, several generations, for the people who are going out from this country to be taught to be our customers, to be sufficiently good customers to make up for any foreign trade that we may lose. I only indicate these things in order to show that whatever hand the Government may take in the course of directing trade, it is essential for us to remember that, if we are going to be successful and to employ our people, our trade is world wide and cannot be allowed to be pushed into any hole or corner position.

I am sure the House must have listened with interest to the speech we have just heard, with much of which I agree. I noticed particularly what the hon. Member said on the question if unemployment, the development of industry and increased production, and that the problem would become more and more a national one. I hope that the Minister of Labour paid particular attention to the points. I am sorry that the hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft) has left his seat, because I find that he has been making contributions to the Debate from the point of view of the safeguarding of the iron and steel industry. All who know anything about this question will agree that for the last eight years, and particularly for the last five years, the iron and steel industry has been in a most deplorable position, probably not even second to the coal trade itself. I find, for instance, that during the last five years the average of unemployment is 25.8 per cent, in the heavy section, as compared with less than 4 per cent, for the five years before the War. Although the output per man employed in the heavy sections of the steel trade has increased by over 36 per cent., since 1920 the wages have fallen to such a point that they are now only 13 per cent, over those of 1914, to meet an increased cost of living of something like 68 per cent., which means that the pound is of no more value than about 11s. 10d. There can be no criticism levelled against the workers in the trade that they are not producing sufficient to enable manufacturers to capture some of the markets. Those who urge the policy of safeguarding I would ask to be very careful about what they are doing. The steel trade, those within the heavy section, are not agreed as to the policy of safeguarding; only a number of them are agreed. And you cannot judge the steel trade merely by the heavy section. We must think of the many ramifications of the trade and deal with it on very broad lines. I know that during last year there were imported to this country 4,000,000 tons of steel, and I am prepared to say that every ounce of that steel could be manufactured in this country at a price. But of that large quantity we exported a considerable amount as finished goods. The 4,000,000 tons of steel imported was steel of a semi-finished character, an a great proportion, I am told 85 per cent., was re-rolled and exported again at an increased value of between £5 and £6 per ton. Safeguarding will mean the imposition of a 33⅓ per cent, duty on imported steel, and I ask hon. Members to realise what that means. You will raise the price of the imported material to such an extent that it will be impossible for our tinplate and sheet trade to compete successfully in the foreign market. If there has been one bright spot, during all this difficult period of trade depression in this basic industry, it has been found in the position of the tinplate and sheet trade—the re-rolling section. Therefore hon. Members should be very careful about urging a policy of this kind which may seriously damage this old and basic industry.

I think I can speak for hon. Members who sit with me on these Benches when I say that we shall not close our minds to any scheme which will benefit the workpeople in all industries, but as regards the conflict between the doctrines of Free Trade and Tariff Reform I want to be quite frank and I say that the people in the industry itself—and I speak for the workpeople—do not want to have politics brought into this question at all The last place to settle such a questions is the Floor of the House of Commons. The proper place to deal with it is at a round table conference, with all the cards on the table, and the workpeople ought to have the opportunity of examining the manufacturers books; they ought to be able to ascertain how the costings in the industry are made, and how much withered limb there is in the industry which could be cut off beneficially, not only in the interests of the workpeople but in the interests of many of the financiers themselves. I am reminded! that 12 of the most important firms in this industry last year disclosed in their balance sheets that there was, for 1925, no less than 7s. 3d. on every ton for debenture interest and last year it was; 5s. 10d. I submit that the time has come in the iron and steel trade when we ought to examine the uneconomic plants and scrap them and, what is more important, erase them from the balance sheets and no longer allow them to be carried forward as a charge for the future.

I had not the pleasure of listening to the speech by the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire (Mr. Boothby) in this Debate, but I read that speech with some interest and I gather from it that, in Germany, the iron and steel manufacturers have no debenture interest for the reason that they have practically speaking no internal debt. They have had 12,000 bankruptcies and I do not want to see any bankruptcies that can possibly be avoided, but it seems to me that something ought to be done on the lines indicated in the hon. Member's speech. I also read in it of a very useful thing which the Germans seemed to be doing in connection with this industry, and that is the endeavour to cut out useless and wasteful competition among the manufacturers themselves. The Germans appear to have a central machinery for dealing with the various troubles and problems affecting the industry. I hope they have co-opted the-workpeople on to their councils because, if they have not done so, it is to their disadvantage. I hope we shall try to do something along those lines. One point struck me very forcibly in the speech of the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, who has, I gather, recently been making a close investigation of these questions. It was that they had established in Germany, what has often been urged upon the iron and steel manufacturers of this country, namely, a central agency for buying and selling. Such an agency would undoubtedly reduce costs and help us to hold our own in the world market.

There is one matter in connection with which I feel that the Government ought to give assistance—in fact, they ought to have given such assistance long ago—and that is the serious burden of local rating. I am afraid that the seriousness of this question and its influence on the steel trade has not been fully appreciated by Members of this House. It may help them to realise the position when I say that prior to the War the average cost of local rates on a ton of steel produced did not exceed 3s. throughout our industrial centres, and to-day it stands in the region of 10s. That is a very heavy burden, and in so far as the matter is dealt with in the King's Speech, I welcome the suggestion that the Government now hope to deal with it, but I am afraid they have been too slow in waking up to the serious effect of throwing the unemployed on to the local rates and making the burden heaviest in those places which can least afford to bear it—in industrial centres such as Middlesbrough, Jarrow and Sheffield. The Government. I think, are committed to take some action in another matter—and such action is long overdue—namely, the question of royalties. We have been promised the nationalisation of royalty rents. Never mind what way it is done. I am not going to quarrel about questions of compensation or confiscation, but I ask, will something be done in this direction. I am not giving any exaggerated figure when I say that the cost of royalty rents and wayleave rents on every ton of steel produced in this country is no less than 4s. 2d., and I have been in districts where it reaches three times that figure.

Again, the steel trade has suffered as a result of the Peace Treaty, certain clauses of which gave reparation coal to France, with the result that France, which only exported a little over 500,000 tons of steel prior to the War, is now in the position of exporting 5,000,000 tons per annum. France has been successful in competing with us in the foreign markets and in undercutting us in many respects at home by reason of the clauses of that Treaty which compelled Germany to hand over coal to France. Thus, French manufacturers were able to get coal at 10s. a ton, while industrialists in this country had to pay 20s. a ton for coal. As no less than three tons of coal are used in the manufacture of a ton of steel in this country, it will be seen that France, as a result of those clauses in the Peace Treaty, was able to get an advantage in the steel trade in the open market of 30s. a ton of steel produced. I suggest that the Government might do something, even now, to deal with that position or what is perhaps equally important. France, which has competed with us so successfully in the open market, might be asked to act more generously in the matter of debt redemption.

There is another important point. The inability or unwillingness of the Government to ratify the Washington Hours Convention is a not insignificant factor in the difficulties with which the steel trade is faced. I would draw attenton to a very important and significant statement made by the spokesmen of the German iron and steel manufacturers when their Government threatened to apply an eight hours' day to the steel trade. The German iron and steel manufacturers said if an eight hours' day were applied it would mean that the price of steel would require to be increased by 10s. a ton, and they would not be able to compete in the foreign market. Had we ratified that Convention, as I believe ought yet to be done, I feel satisfied that Germany would have done the same and we would then be on more or less equal terms with her in this matter. It is no use merely saying that Germany would not ratify. Let us put ourselves right in this important matter first. I again appeal to Members who are talking about safeguarding to be careful. Let the particular trade concerned deal with this matter itself, in the first instance, through men on both sides who are associated with the industry, who know its problems, and who are prepared to make recommendations.

After listening for two and a-half days to this Debate, as I have listened to many previous Debates on unemployment, I cannot help wondering whether the Opposition really want to produce remedies for unemployment and to assist the Govern- ment in putting those remedies into force, or whether they are only trying, legitimately, no doubt, to use unemployment as a weapon with which to overthrow the Government. If they really want to remedy unemployment I venture to make one or two suggestions of ways in which they can help us to do so. First of all, will they not make a definite declaration as to whether they still adhere to Socialism and the surtax or not? There is nothing more disquieting to trade and industry than incessant talk of nationalisation, of confiscation, of surtaxes and so forth. These proposals all have their reactions on the unemployment situation. I notice that in this Debate Socialism has been mentioned at intervals, but not by those Front Bench intellectuals opposite who might be expected to explain to us most clearly what they mean by Socialism and how far they intend to carry it. Comment was made by an hon. Member opposite on the absence of the Minister of Labour, whom we are. very glad to see back in his place to-day after his illness, and I may be allowed to comment on one or two other absences. We have had an admirable speech from the President of the Board of Trade. Why have we not been favoured with some oration from the right hon. Gentleman who was Socialist President of the Board of Trade? Can he not throw some light on the present situation and show us what Socialism can do for us? We have had an interesting speech from the Minister of Health. Why has not the right hon. Gentleman who was Minister of Health in the Socialist Government told us something about the position? Where are those two twin stars of Socialist finance, the hon. Member for Peckham (Mr. Dalton) and the hon. Member for Smethwick (Mr. Mosley)? We have not had an opportunity of hearing their remedies for unemployment. Where is the Socialist ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer?

The hon. Member should know that the right hon. Gentleman has been ill.

I am sorry to hear that, and I quite understand that it explains his absence, which I very much regret. I had hoped for a long time to hear the right hon. Gentleman explain to the members of the Independent Labour Party exactly how he intended to apply the surtax. To turn to other methods of removing unemployment1, a good deal has been said on this side about safeguarding. I am not a Protectionist, and I am not a hide-bound Free Trader. I have watched with great interest the progress of safeguarding, however, and I have seen the increased employment and the increased revenue resulting from it, with no increase in prices, and I feel that within limits that policy should be pursued further. Personally, I should like to see the Government get rather closer to those limits; I should like them to take a little more risk and rather a bolder policy. It may be that it might not be quite so uniformly successful, but it would show us more clearly in the country exactly what the limits are to which we could take such a policy.

Then, again, I have always supported safeguarding because it seems to me a most useful weapon to use against foreign tariffs, but the way in which it is now being administered, with its White Papers and inquiries, does not seem to me flexible enough to cause any foreign Government to pay serious attention to threats or representations of safeguarding being applied unless their tariffs were reduced. I hope the Government do use it as a weapon of negotiation, but I feel that they might do more in that direction. For instance, we see France putting a considerably increased tariff on our manufactured goods. We are importing great quantities of wines and spirits from France. Why do not the Government use our duties on wines as a bargaining weapon to secure a reduction of the French duties on our manufactures?

Various suggestions have been made with regard to the development of Empire trade, Imperial Preference, and emigration as a cure for unemployment, and there again I think the Labour party could do a great deal to help us. You see in Australia and South Africa very strong Labour parties, and you see in Canada a very strong Liberal party. Why should not our Labour party and our Liberal party here agree to continue the policy of Imperial Preference, which the Empire wants? That would greatly strengthen our trade relations with the Empire. Above all, why should not our Labour party send out delegations to meet the Labour parties of the Dominions and explain to them our difficulties over here, and endeavour to encourage emigration and Empire trade? Again, they could help us in the Far East. There is no doubt that the Labour policy of messages to Mr. Chen and their speeches in this country have done a great deal of harm to British trade. Why should not the Labour party change their policy in regard to both India and China and thus assist employment in this country?

I would like to allude to a speech made last Friday by the hon. Member for Perth (Mr. Skelton), with regard to the use of small holdings for the relief of unemployment, especially in connection with the mining industry. The hon. Member has done a great deal to interest me and other hon. Members on this side in the question of small holdings, and I think his suggestion is most valuable. Take my own constituency and our Somerset coalfield. There we have a comparatively small coalfield, working very poor, thin seams, with, I am afraid, at present an extremely low rate of wages, a great deal of unemployment, and still more partial employment. That small coalfield is set in a very beautiful country, within easy reach of large markets like Bristol, Bath, and Frome, and it seems to me an ideal case for the development of small holdings. More especially because since the War a large amount of money has been laid out there in housing, and it would be a thousand pities to scrap all the housing that has been erected and leave the district derelict while our miners move off to other districts.

I am very glad to see that the Government propose to open a training centre at Bristol. That, again, will help us very much indeed in the Somerset coalfield. With a training centre at Bristol for the instruction of the younger men and the development of small holdings for the older men, I think we may be able to see our way through our difficulties in Somerset. In conclusion, I should like to thank the Government for the great and very successful efforts which they have made to deal with unemployment, and I should like to urge the other parties in this House to help us put up a united front to the foreigner with the rest of the Empire, and to try, with a genuine, united move, to reduce the curse of unemployment which weighs so heavily upon us.

I wish to devote my remarks to commenting upon the speech delivered in the House on Thursday last by the hon. Member for Mansfield (Mr. Varley), but before doing so I wish to refer to a point made by the hon. Member for Frome (Mr. Peto), who has just sat down. I would like to have shown, if I had had time, that there is ample room for the development of small holdings if conducted along certain lines, and that what I think is absolutely essential in this country, both to small holdings and to agriculture generally, is that there should be established in this country one great public company, which should have a monopoly and be charged with buying in all that we have to buy, but whose return on capital should be limited. I have not time to develop that idea to-day, but, if I had, I would like to have applied my mind to that aspect of the question as an attempt at a solution of the problem of unemployment.

The speech of the hon. Member for Mansfield on Thursday last was grossly unfair and grossly untrue, and I shall show, before I sit down, that there was no ground whatever for making a speech of that character if he wanted to confine himself to facts and truth. There may have been in that speech one aspect of it which was true. He said that a certain colliery company had made and had distributed enormous profits. I am not going to question that at all, but I am going to answer three points that he made. The first was, that this colliery company was acting in a dishonourable manner in seeking now to reduce the basic rate of wages for a particular seam belonging to them; secondly, he said that men were compelled to join certain organisations; and, finally, I shall touch upon his attitude towards selling agencies. It is perfectly true that the New Hucknall Colliery Company approached their men with regard to a reduction in wages in one of their seams, but what are the conditions existing there to-day? At the New Hucknall Colliery they have four different seams of coal— one called the Piper, just developed, one called the Low Main, one called the Deep Hard, and the other called the Waterloo.

It is at the Waterloo seam that a reduction has taken place. When I was called in by the colliery company, or, rather, by the chief agent for the company, I was given full access to the books to examine them, and I could either examine them myself or get a chartered accountant to do it for me. I have had on more than one occasion access to the books of the colliery company when disputes have arisen, and I found on this occasion that at this particular pit the colliery company for the last six months lost on an average 1s. 11.6d. per ton. The pit has never paid except during the War and for just a few weeks at the end of the last big strike in 1926. The only other profit since that pit was sunk was £33 one quarter and £34 another quarter. The men in that particular seam were getting, when I examined the figures 15s. 3d. a day for every man working at the coal face, and the wages of the men in the other three seams were 13s. 3d. in the Deep Hard and Piper, and 13s. 6d. in the Lowmain. The colliery company was losing a lot of money; as a matter of fact, it was losing in the Deep Hard money equal to that in the Waterloo. But when we went into the question of whether these men also should suffer a reduction in their basic rate, let it be said, to the credit of the chief agent, and, as I shall show, to the credit of the company, that he stated that the wages in that seam were low enough; he could not ask the men in the seam getting 13s. 3d. to suffer any reduction notwithstanding the fact that the company were losing between 1s. and 2s. a ton on every ton of coal they turned out. He said he would turn his attention to something else and try to reduce costs.

With the Waterloo, however, he could not do anything except ask the men, who were getting on an average from 1s. to 2s. a day more than the other men, to help them to share some of that loss, and he asked if they would bear a proportion of it amounting to between 7d. and 9d. a ton, this to be borne by men doing ripping and coal getting. It meant for the coal getter a reduction of 3½d. per ton, plus percentage. It was stated in the House, but it was not quite true, that that would mean a reduction for these particular coal getters of 2s. a day. Supposing it was true, they would still be left with 13s. 3d. a day, equal to that of the Deep Hard seam, and the question that confronted those men was, "Will you close the pit, or will you go on having 13s. 3d. a day?" I advised the men to continue working. They took a ballot, and, at the instigation of some of the Red men, they closed the pit. Within a week they came to ask me to get it opened again, and I am proud to say that, through my intervention with the chairman of the directors, some of those men have got back again to work.

6.0 p.m.

The point is that the hon. Member for Mansfield said, "That is dishonourable; that is breaking the agreement; the agreement says that the coalowners shall pay a certain percentage of money upon basic rates." It does, but he knows as well as I know that it has been the practice of Nottinghamshire, ever since he and I were associated with it, to claim the right to modify basic rates up or down at any time, and he and I too have been successful in increasing every class of basic wages, notwithstanding a similar agreement that has been running. Therefore, I want to say to this House that it was no violation of agreement, that it was no dishonourable act, but that it was an act that has been done by the leaders of the Nottinghamshire Miners' Association ever since he or I has ever been associated with it. I said just now that I would show that there was something more to be said for the credit of this company, and it is something which drives home the point I am seeking to make. At the end of the 1921 stoppage an application was made by the whole of the coal-owners of Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire for a 7½ per cent, reduction on basic wages in pits other than Top Hard seams. That 7½ per cent, was agreed to. The hon. Member for Mansfield and myself were parties to it. It was to reduce basic wages and the 7½ was taken off at the beginning of 1922. The New Hucknall Colliery have nine seams working. In 1922 they were entitled by that agreement to reduce the wages of their day men 7½ per cent, plus the prevailing percentage. That was in 1922. From that moment to this they have never availed themselves of the right to that agreement. They are paying to-day £20,000 a year in wages to their workmen more than they need do and the hon. Member for Mansfield had not decency enough to refer to it. By the agreement made between himself and myself, representing the Association, they could have taken that at the beginning of 1922, and what they are asking the men in the Waterloo seam to bear is a mere flea bite to what they can claim as a right according to an agreement entered into as far back as 1922. It is only because the colliery company, like others, are losing money hand over fiet—and people who have access to the books and who have common sense know—that the question arises, "Shall they close or ask the men to suffer a reduction?" Instead of seeking to accommodate ourselves and meet the difficulties which confront us, we have a handful of Red men running about the country seeking to shatter the confidence between men and masters, and they are making it extremely difficult for men who are seeking to establish peace and cooperation in the industry in order to keep some pits open.

The point I now seek to make on behalf of the colliery company is that they have done no dishonourable act. They have violated no agreement, but, instead, they have been handing out £20,000 a year to their workmen, whereas if they took their pound of flesh, they could to-morrow make a reduction of 7½ per cent, on their basic wages plus the prevailing percentage. There are only 250 men involved in the Waterloo seam, and there are 6,000 men drawing the 7½ per cent., and yet we have an hon. Member saying that the colliery are acting dishonourably. It is mean and contemptible, and a thing no honourable and well-disposed man, would do. The next point he made was that this company are forcing men to join my organisation. I would like to call the attention of the House to a particular clause dealing with a pit called Welbeck. This Welbeck price-li6t was signed in 1916 by the hon. Member for Mansfield, and clause 30 says: to join an organisation; he is complaining because it is not his organisation. That is the ground of all his complaints, and I wish he were in his place to-day to hear the criticism I have got to offer. I say this to the Labour party, to the leaders who are there, and to the leaders of the Miners' Federation of Great Britain, that the hon. Member for Mansfield was the man who prompted the new union. If they would institute a Commission, I would bring evidence of men who were then associated with him, who are now associated with me, whom he prompted to start this new organisation, and neither I nor a single one of my colleagues belonging to the old Notts Miners' Asociation knew about it. Furthermore, I would bring evidence to prove that he prompted men and colliery officials to victimise the Reds when the pits started again. He should not come to this House repeatedly stating, as he states in the country, that he stands up to fight the new organisation, and has had nothing to do with it. He is the man who is guilty of being the origin and the very prompter of the new organisation that has sprung up in Nottingham. Let them set up a commission; I will bring evidence to prove what I have to say, and stop the kind of bickering which emanates from men like that.

I wish he were here, too. I have given notice in the Press that I was going to make this speech to-day. There is only one other remark I want to make.

You should not talk about check-weighmen; you began the sacking of check-weighmen. Three of my men were sacked because they were members of my organisation. They were the first men who were victimised. I have a man a pick-sharpener, who has been given three months' notice because he is a member of my organisation. I want to make one other observation. An attempt is now being made, rightly or wrongly, to set up selling agencies in the Three Counties scheme. I hope that is going to extend, and that not only are the three counties going to combine with other counties, but that they will formulate similar schemes and co-ordinate. As soon as the coal owners attempt to do a thing of that character, are they receiving the support of the leaders of the miners' organisation? Not a bit of it. Are they likely to be consulted, when the first thing you see in the Press is a condemnation from this leader or the other? The railwaymen have more common-sense. I have petitions from them asking us to vote in this House for the Measure which is to be brought forward to give the railways power to run on the high road. If the miners had as much sense as the railwaymen, and had co-operated with the coal owners as the railwaymen have with their directors, we would be in a different position. The railwaymen have had a leader who has been looking after the railwaymen. We in the mining industry have had a leader who has been looking after everybody but the miners. If he had been as much concerned with the miners as with the cause of other people, we would not be in the state in which we are to-day. If we are going to get back to prosperity, we have got, sooner or later, to drop that bickering. When Cook is prepared to do even as other trade union leaders want to do, he will find his men in Nottingham are prepared to back up a sane policy, but, as far as I am concerned, I will go down fighting rather than accept the policy of Cook, which I know is leading the workers to disaster.

I will not attempt to follow the interesting speech to which the House has just listened, but I want to say something about the arguments put forward by the right hon. Gentleman who moved the Amendment. We often hear in the constituencies and on the platforms—and it is a fact which we all regret, to whatever party we belong— that we have over 1,000,000 unemployed in this country, and that this is an absolute proof of the failure of our present industrial system and, from the point of view of Socialists, proof that our industrial system should be scrapped and the policy of Socialism substituted in its place. I wonder what sane man would think he could possibly get the value of any business or system by taking the balance sheet and looking; at the debit side only. That is what the Mover of this Amendment did in his speech. He called attention to the fact that under our present system we have over 1,000,000 people unemployed, but he failed to call attention to the fact that under that system of industry we maintain in these small islands a population of 40,000,000 people. I maintain that, before we have any arguments in favour of scrapping our industrial system and substituting for it a policy of Socialism, we have at least to get the proof that that policy will maintain something approaching 40,000,000 people. So far there has been no proof that the system would maintain 10,000,000 people, let alone 40,000,000. So when people argue that the present system has failed because of the number of unemployed, it is not putting the case fairly unless, at the same time, the number of people for whom that system has found employment—an increasing number every year—is pointed out, and also that in these small islands we maintain one of the densest populations in any portion of the world.

In all these Debates on unemployment the problem seems to be divided under two heads. It is a twofold problem. It is a problem of reducing the evil by increasing the demand for employment, and that is the only permanent cure; it is also a problem of relieving the unhappy lot of those who are unemployed. It has always seemed to me that the party opposite appear to take much more interest in relieving the hard lot of those who are unemployed than in dealing with the other part of the problem, that of reducing the evil. In the last two or three years we can fairly claim that the Government have done something substantial to increase the demand for employment. Among their Acts I must include the Safeguarding Acts which have been successful. The fact remains that every one of those Acts, which has resulted in increasing work, has met with the opposition of hon. Members opposite. A previous speaker in a most interesting speech, showed that he was opposed to the Safeguarding of Industries Acts, and at the same time went on to complain that the French nation were undercutting us in their trade owing to the advantage they had of cheap coal from Germany. He went on to point out that they had an advantage over us in that respect amounting to 30s. a ton. Is it not a fair proposition that something approaching the amount of the unfair advantage that France has should be put on in the shape of a duty so that our people can compete on fair terms? In one part of his speech, in which he was not very convincing—I do not think he himself was convinced—he was rather against Safeguarding, but that was followed up by a very strong argument in favour of a Safeguarding policy.

I would like to say a word about something which we all recognise, more fully than we did a year or two ago, as being a great factor in the reduction of unemployment, and that is the absence of internecine strife, of anything like civil war, in industry, and the maintenance of peace. Anyone who promotes a strike in industry does more to create unemployment than anyone else can possibly do, no matter whether he be employer or workman. As an example of that, may I point to the example of the boot and shoe industry, which is the main industry in the constituency I have the honour to represent? Many years ago, those engaged in that complicated industry came to a very sensible agreement by which the many different and changing rates of wages paid in the technical processes carried through in the manufacture of boots and shoes have been arranged in a friendly way round a table, with the result that there has been no strike for a period of over 30 years. I say that it was only owing to the absence of strikes and the friendly way they have of discussing matters round a table, that they were able, in spite of the great difficulties existing after the War, in recapturing a great deal of the trade with America which had been completely lost during the War. Anything in the nature of a strike in that industry at that time would probably have made the recapture of the American market in the boot and shoe trade absolutely impossible.

That is one example of what can be done; and everyone in the country must see with joy the signs that in future there will be a greater inclination to settle our disputes and our disagreements in industry in the manner which all of us wish to see adopted in international affairs. I should like to see an extension of the policy of safeguarding, which has proved so successful, and every effort made to maintain peace in industry, because in that way, I think, we shall be doing the best we can to cure the evil of unemployment. I am all in favour of helping to alleviate the distress caused by unemployment—though, having no time,, I have not talked about that— but, to my mind, the most important thing for us to do is to find more employment.

As it is impossible to fit it into the scheme of a speech, perhaps the House will allow me to begin by referring to an observation made by the hon. Member for Kettering (Sir M. Manningham-Buller). In the course of his remarks about peace in industry, he referred to that admirable agreement which exists between the boot and shoe operatives and their employers. I do not know whether the hon. and gallant Member is aware of the fact, but some of us strove very hard to get that agreement broadcast. But this Government, in their sageness, came to the conclusion that that agreement was so highly controversial that it could not be sent out over the wireless. That is only a little incident, which I hope the House will forgive me for alluding to, because I so heartily agree with the hon. and gallant Member in the observations he made as to the efficacy of that agreement and the hope that it will be copied by other industries. We started this Debate for the purpose of discovering what was the policy of the Government on unemployment, with special reference to the consequences of continued unemployment, concentrated very largely in certain localities, upon the local government of those localities. Unfortunately for myself, I have not sat through the whole of the Debate, but I have been here every minute of the time that I possibly could, and I have noted that there has been a serious paucity of support for the Government. We have had certain speeches—I think those have given the only support the Government have found —praising the safeguarding of industries. There have been very confused ideas, very bad figures, atrociously abominable economics, and occasionally politics that are too bad to have been shown the light of day.

Take the most extraordinary argument the hon. and gallant Member advanced, to the cheers of his supporters, regarding safeguarding, when he was taking up the point that my hon. Friend behind me made. A Treaty is made which includes certain reparation Clauses. It was not our fault if the point of the cost of reparation coal was overlooked by those who originally drafted the Treaty. In 1924, I would remind the hon. and gallant Member, we saw to that. Whether what is stated is true I do not know, but I accept the facts as given. If they were true before that date, they have not been true since that date; but what is the argument? The hon. and gallant Member says that on account of that Treaty which we signed, France is getting coal at a price which, I believe, means a sort of preference to the extent of 30s. a ton on steel. Then, says the mind that leaps to that rock in a weary world—safeguarding—"Why do not we impose a safeguarding duty upon French industries? "—not upon general imports but upon French imports—so that in our competition with France we may be put upon a level with the French producer. Really, the observation I made just now about bad politics is more than justified. Let the hon. and gallant Member consider what his suggestion, means. If he would only place himself in the position of a close personal assistant to the Foreign Secretary—

Am I to understand that it is the opinion of the Leader of the Opposition that it is bad politics to put our own working men on fair terms with others?

The hon. Member knows perfectly well that he does not need to put that question to me. He knows perfectly well that is not the question at issue. The point is that he proposes to do that in a way that nobody who ever considered the consequences would ever think of suggesting. That is the whole point. Instead of putting our working men to work by adopting a scheme like that, he would so dislocate the mechanism of industry that in a very short time there would be no workmen or work at all. That is one fact to be remembered by those who imagine that safeguarding has really proved its efficacy. [ Interruption. ] In a minute I shall show how that is so. Then he has asked us to note the increase in employment which has taken place since this Government came into office. I am a little doubtful about it. To throw about gross figures, figures without any colour and without any light, is about the vainest pursuit which any controversialist can adopt. I very briefly and hurriedly, and I quite admit inadequately, drew the attention of the House during the main Debate to an analysis of those figures, and if hon. Members are seriously interested in following the developments of trade through individual channels, so that they may differentiate from a general mass of causes some of those which go to improve trade and others which go to depress trade, they must not talk about 1,000,000 more employed. As a matter of fact there are not. They must not talk of 800,000 more, they must not even talk of a net figure of from 500,000 to 600,000 more employed. They must divide up employment and see in what direction the extra employment has been found.

Apologists for the Government satisfy themselves and think that they justify the Government if they can go to any one of the million unemployed and say, "Why need you trouble? Do you not see that your neighbour is in employment?" Provided the unemployed man's neighbour is doing work there is- no question of dealing with the unemployed. That is not a satisfactory attitude to take up. Some very delightful speeches have come from the other side of the House. If one was not able to listen to them, at any rate one has read with great delight the speeches of those promising younger Members opposite who are coming up and following in our footsteps. We are in a most fortunate position at the present time. I was reading a book the other day, the author of which seemed to differentiate among the undistinguished minds in front of me at the present moment the individuals who, when I shall have ceased from troubling and when I shall be at rest from all my weariness, will be sitting on the Front Bench— those distinguished faces, those heads which, if one only had the insight and the spiritual power to see the invisible, we would recognise as having a halo about them, though at the present moment the individuals are sitting away back in semi- darkness. All those hon. Members—anything we can do to encourage them and help them will always be done—are beginning to see how very ineffectual, very unsystematic and very scrappy has been nine-tenths of the Debate on nationalisation from their own benches during the last few days.

At the same time, while we have budding Socialists on the Back Benches of the Tory party, we find a whole party below the Gangway on our own side telling us they have produced an alternative to Socialism. It may be an alternative to Socialism, but it belongs to the breed of Socialism, though I must be perfectly candid in saying that it is a weakling, that it suffers from rickets. Its blood is not very red, and it has got certain physical deformities which every medical idea associates with a rather debased parentage on one side. Nevertheless the alternative Socialist policy which has been launched upon the country by hon. Members opposite is a decrepit object which is a product of Socialism misunderstood and misconceived. We now find ourselves in a strong position standing between a strong battalion which belongs to the more remote future, and the large battalions which are doing their best to belong to a nearer future.

We have heard arguments about nationalisation from hon. Members opposite which took me back quite 25 years. I remember the days of that delightful old bearded Member of this House, the late Mr. Samuel Smith, who has been forgotten by quite 90 per cent, of the hon. Members of this House. Mr. Samuel Smith used to get up in this House and try to prove that nationalisation had never succeeded at all, and he always proceeded on the assumption that our idea of a social change was something which would stand steady one moment and in the next six months you would have a change in society which would be turned into a great bureaucracy. If we leave our critics on one side we find that the policy of the Government is one of inactivity. That emerges from all the Government have said on this subject, and it almost breaks the heart of the hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft). I am sure he has not forgotten the name of that patient animal which he once applied to his hon. Friend. I remember that the hon. and gallant Member used to use the name of that animal a great deal for certain party purposes, but he seems to be a much more patient example of that animal to-night. The Government with their majority of 200 have never bad any troubles. The policy of the Government is not Protection up to the hilt, but Protection which means the exclusion of everything labelled foreign.

That policy would most certainly have destroyed the reputation of the Government if the Government and their party had not been the most docile lot that ever sat in this House. I will now refer to some of the points which have been made by the various groups of hon. Members opposite. What do they say? The Minister of Health has reminded us that we have had a war, and that after a war you must necessarily have a large number of unemployed; and he says that you cannot upset the laws of nature. That means that a million men must starve after the War. Essentially that is the position taken up by the Government on this question, and we deny that that position is a sound one. The supporters of the Government go further and they say, "We have not only had a war, but we have had a general strike." Then we come in. The history of this question will be written one day, and unless someone makes an immensely stupid blunder, when that history is written, hon. Gentlemen sitting on the Treasury Bench will have to bear the brunt of the general strike.

Be that as it may, what is the position? Hon. Gentlemen opposite say that the general strike created all this unemployment. They know perfectly well that the reason the general strike happened at all was that conditions existed before that strike which were so threatening to the standards of the life of the people that, rightly or wrongly, it was decided by the most responsible organisations that they would run the risk of the general strike rather than face the economic difficulties which lay before them. On this point I want to emphasise what was said by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Platting (Mr. Clynes). It was not so much the general strike that did the damage, but it was the coal lock-out. When hon. Members opposite talk about the general strike they mix it up with the coal lock-out, and they imagine that the two things are the same. The conditions which existed before the labour dispute were just as bad as the conditions that existed after the dispute, and the reason there was a labour dispute at all was that trade was so bad that both employers and workmen were afraid to go on in a straight line from the point they had reached.

Hon. Members opposite talk in a loose way about this trade dispute, but may I remind them that as early as February, 1925, on this side of the House we asked the Government to take steps that would have avoided the dispute, and if they had liked to quote trade disputes and disturbances as a reason for intensifying matters since 1927, do let them remember that first of all we begged them, before there was any dispute, to take time by the forelock and they refused, and during the dispute we did everything we could to bring the two sides together. Between a reduction of wages before negotiations and the acceptance of a reduction after negotiations there is a very great distinction, and it raises a very crucial point. In these negotiations the Government were generally on the wrong side, and caused a great deal of obstruction. The Minister of Health puts forward the industrial dispute as an excuse for the present state of things, but the principal claim of the Government supporters is that it is confined to safeguarding.

The speeches which have been made on the question of safeguarding have been very interesting. One hon. Member said that the trouble was that we had not got safeguarding, and he asserted that because we were a Free Trade country, naturally we should expect more unemployment than we should have if we developed safeguarding up to the point that it might be regarded as a Protectionist policy. Then we were told that we required to be protected against Germany. First of all, we were told that German wages were lower than ours and that German unemployment was higher than ours. To establish an argument of that kind it will take a cleverer man than that agile performer the President of the Board of Trade, who is a most accomplished man in regard to figures, for he can readily make two and two into five in one sentence, and in the next sentence he makes two and two into three. As a matter of fact, we never know what the right hon. Gentleman is coming out with. It would take an even more agile performer than the President of the Board of Trade to reconcile the safeguarding policy of the Government with the argument that it had adopted a policy which had made Germany poorer than ourselves. We have had figures given to us in regard to safeguarding which are not worth a puff of tobacco, because you have not yet settled down to get your averages and you have not had it long enough. [ Interruption. ] I knew that that gay-coloured fly would make my hon. Friends opposite jump up above the water, but there it is. First of all, you applied safeguarding to certain selected industries, but, as regards others that applied for the privileges of safeguarding, you have rejected their application. Therefore, safeguarding, by the conditions of your own experiment, proves no national result; it is only a barrier upon the national economy which every cautious man who really tries to get at economic truth would use in a most chary and hesitating way. Moreover, the industries that you have selected for safeguarding were all expanding industries before you started safeguarding. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] I allowed the word "all" to slip in. They were expanding industries in the main. What I meant to say, when I used the word "all," was that those that were of any real national importance were all expanding industries before the safeguarding experiment was tried. That is what I meant when I used the word "all."

Take the motor industry, which is probably the largest and the one that can be best related to real beneficial and economic national production. What do you find there? The test of safeguarding is imports. [HON. MEMBERS: "Employment!"] Surely, employment is the result of trade. You safeguard because you allege that the imports are destroying your trade, or hampering it, or stifling it, or minimising it—take any word you like. Therefore, if you find that you are not dealing with imports, then I say that, to that extent at any rate, the whole thing is too tentative to dogmatise about. You have to examine what you have done, and see what it really does and what it really does not justify you in concluding. If you find that the imports are not showing what you would like them to show, there is a, certain suspicion, at any rate, that must attach to your method. I turned up this morning the last Return of Trade and Navigation that I had, and I find that our imports of touring cars in 1926 were 12,015, while in 1927 they were 19,219. I am not going to say that these figures prove anything, except that you should be suspicious; that is all—that it only enables you to come to an exceedingly tentative conclusion.

Could the right hon. Gentleman give the total number of cars in this country, and then compare the figures?

The imports have gone up. What class of reasoning is that which says, "There are so many cars on the road, and, if you had not had safeguarding, there would have been so many less or there would have been so many more"? You cannot do it. Really, although I happen to be standing at this Box, and although I sit on this side of the House, I am not making a party argument of this; I am trying to get an economic truth out. I say that there is no man, I do not care on which side he sits, who can say that from these figures you establish any settled economic fact that relates to national economy, and, until you can do that, you cannot praise your Government for putting duties on fabric gloves, silk stockings, wrapping paper, and so on. As to any practical aid, the safeguarding experiment has been negligible; as to any guide, it has been an absolute failure. I do not know low it was estimated from the Government point of view, but I tried roughly to estimate the number of people who had been put into work—because you passed safeguarding for that purpose— and to compare it with the number of people that you are taking off work this year because the Chancellor of the Exchequer raided the Road Fund; and I venture to say that the difference is very small indeed. I do not wish to push this point too far, but I am prepared to push it as far as it ought to be pushed. By a wise planning of road construction, laying roads such as that which the Minister of Transport and I happened to co-operate in opening about 10 days ago, you really are contributing more to the fundamental wealth of your country than by applying safeguarding provisions in minor cases. So far as safeguarding is concerned, that, I think, is the best that can be said for it.

The Minister of Health took another point, and the hon. Member for Wake-field (Mr. Ellis) in his very interesting speech, if I might say so—it was one of those speeches which are very delightful to listen to because they are so closely reasoned out by a man who really knows what he is talking about—took the same point as that which was made by the Minister of Health, namely, that the Government ought to be congratulated and thanked for having given us the miners' eight-hours day, because it really had increased our coal trade. The hon. Member for Wakefield rather missed the point of certain statements that have been made about that. Let us see what the case is. The Minister of Health made it clear, I think, that, by changing the miners' working day from seven hours to eight hours, the cost of production per ton of coal went down by, I think, 2s. 8d. That meant that more coal was sold, and that, whilst the weekly wages of the miner may be smaller than they used to be, his income as a matter of fact is larger than it used to be. That argument is profoundly fallacious. It is one of those theoretical arguments that flies all right so long as you ask it to carry no luggage of facts, but, as soon as you put a fact on it, it comes down flop to the ground. All that we have to do is to look at the miners' pay-sheets, and hon. Members may be sure that, if any of them go and examine the pay-sheets, not for the week but for any period you like—a month, six months, or a year—if they can come across a person who, on account of the eight-hours day, has really received an advanced income, apart from wages, that person is a very happy exception in a great mass of others.

The Government's method of improving the coal trade, therefore, is to lower the conditions of the miners. The Government say, "We expand trade, more coal is got, more coal is sold, more coal is consumed—down with the conditions of the miners." There is something wrong there, but that is the policy of the Government, and the Government know it; and for that policy we hold the Government responsible. The latest proof of the success of the Government is the reduction in the Northumberland coal-miners' wages by 2s. a day. If the Prime Minister should get up and say to the Northumberland miner, "My dear friend, do not look at your 2s.; do not look at your wages, dropped now by 2s. every time they are paid to you; look at your income," the Northumberland miner will want to know what his income is. He knows his wages, but he does not know his income. We can, however, say this, and we will say it with the same assurance with which we pointed it out when the Prime Minister was still manœuvring his Eight Hours Bill through the House of Commons, that the reduction of wages in Northumberland by 2s. per shift is not going to improve the income position of the Northumberland miner. He has had 12 months of it now, with his lower wages and his lengthened hours, and the coal trade is not improved, taking the trade as a whole. Therefore, we have to go in some other direction to consider how the improvement is going to come about. The only direction is organisation, both in the getting and in the selling of coal. That brings us to nationalisation. You are not going to get your unit of economic and effective organisation short of a national unit. Right hon. Gentlemen opposite are always about six years behind us. I remember perfectly well a dispute with the settlement of which I had a great deal to do. That was the dispute over the pool; and I remember how the coalowners, the coal-masters, their representatives in this House, and people who held their economic views, laughed at the pool, pulled it to pieces, and told us that the idea never could be entertained by any reasonable man. Now the coalowners themselves are coming to demand the pool. All the learned and business-like men from Yorkshire, South Wales, and so on, are now taking up our five-years-old leavings, and are asking the Government sometimes—not always—to pick up the miners' idea of the pool and apply it to their conditions, because only by applying the pool idea is a way going to be found out of the difficulties of the coal trade. An hon. Member asked us, in a very interesting speech, which reminded me of a very interesting page of Adam Smith, "Where is your successful experiment in nationalisation?" He went over a certain amount of history, not always accurate, and, having quoted case after case, he proceeded to try to prove a negative by two or three examples. He said it had failed again and again, and never would succeed.

7.0 p.m.

I would remind him and the House that nationalisation is not necessarily coming to us immediately, but that every change in an organisation, every change in an economic structure that is taking place under your own eyes and occasionally with your own Government's help, is in the direction of Socialism. Here the Adam Smith parallel comes in. He laid down as an absolute certainty, as far as negatives can prove a positive, that businesses, outside the banks, in this country could never be run as joint stock companies—an absolutely foolish and impossible idea. He had only put that down upon his paper and the ink had scarcely begun to dry before the internal laws of the economic society in which he lived began to laugh at him. To-day we read that grave dictum of Adam Smith's book, feeling that our master, after all, had great flaws in his intelligence. You are repeating the same statement to-day that Adam Smith made regarding the joint stock companies.

The other point is regarding local government. It is of the most essential importance that the Government should see that it is not only neglecting human beings, not only allowing men, women and children to lose their grip upon a healthy life, but that the processes of local government are beginning to disappear in some areas where unemployment is rife. The Minister of Health seemed to be very much surprised on Friday to be able to announce to the House that he had met some Socialist councillors who did a courageous and straight thing. It is perfectly true the Abertillery men did not like their job. I would like to know how the Prime Minister would like it. These men have got, first of all, to face a rating problem. That rating problem, in a sentence, is that, whereas before unemployment reached the depth that it is now, the rating valuation of Abertillery was spread over a large number of business places and tenancies and properties of varied kinds and the assessable valuation in 1920 was £156,000, in 1927 that valuation has fallen to £115,000, which is in a very much larger proportion imposed upon working-class dwellings than it was in 1920. The Prime Minister's problem would be, if he was doing the work of those three men who were praised here on Friday, to get the cost of government for Abertillery out of the occupiers of houses who themselves did not know where to turn for an income. I am perfectly certain he would consider it a very thankless, a very heartless and, I am not at all sure that he would not say, a very inhuman job.

The Minister of Health said in that connection and implied even more than he said—if he did not imply it, he will correct me—that the first thing that has happened, as the result of the administration of those three men, is that people who have not been paying the rates, having been threatened with legal proceedings, crowded into the rate collector's offices to pay their arrears. He implied by that, that they were saving their money, that by some operation of the dishonest mind they were refusing to pay the rates. That is not a fact. Unfortunately, economically, fortunately morally, that is not the fact. What happened is this. A large number of the ratepayers of Abertillery have not enough to pay both rates and grocer, and, unfortunately, they have to choose between the two. They paid their grocer, and could not pay their rates. When they were threatened with legal proceedings if they did not pay their rates, then they did not pay their grocer, and they are paying their rates. Not a very glorious, triumphant result of bringing pressure to bear upon local government authorities. To rob Peter in order to pay Paul is, perhaps, a particular illustration of what the Government do, but, in any event, it ought not to boast about it as its representative did last Friday. Another thing is that they are saving money by reducing lighting. The moment they reduce lighting, crime goes up. They are also saving money by not scavenging as they did before. The moment the streets are unbrushed, disease goes up. Those are the triumphant services which the Minister of Health claims that his three victims are now doing to the community.

There then is this position. We are faced with a grave, pressing problem of unemployment. The Government can say what they like about unemployment, about the 600,000 or 800,000 increase m registered people, but that does not get them out of their responsibility for the 1,100,000 unemployed people who have got to live whether the Government like it or not. Hon. Members really must see the drift. We are living under conditions and under systems to-day that, so far from having been accepted, never were accepted. When it started over 100 years ago, you had your revolts and you have had your revolts right up to the present time. Even your own Disraeli, in one of the trashiest volumes of novels ever written, showed an appreciation of the two nations that are a direct result of the condition of things you are going into the Lobby to-night in order to support. When you ask the Government what their policy is, they have said up to now, "We have no policy of national relief. We are going to leave the million unemployed alone." We have reminded the Government of their speeches at the General Election that it was aware of a problem of unemployment and would be sleepless in trying to get remedies for that problem. Up to now they have done nothing for the problem in our central industries, iron and steel, and, above all, coal, even in face of a million odd unemployed. Now, after four or five years, they have listened to us and have admitted that the problem of the distressed area requires something to be done for it. But the crisis has come. The break, the crash is with us finally, and now these right hon. Gentlemen will come down in a body and say, "Yes, the house is crashing. Disease has broken out, we cannot afford now to light our streets in the mining areas. We are, therefore, going to make inquiries. At the end of over three years we are going to make inquiries to see if anything can be done. If so, how much and what consequential changes are to take place in local government after our financial readjustments have taken place?"

It is, therefore, very important to look at the facts, and to recognise the fact that people living 50 years from now, looking back on these days, will see that we are going through an industrial revolution as well marked as the industrial revolution at the end of the 18th century and beginning of the 19th century, a revolution caused by exactly the same scientific and industrial changes that caused the first revolution—power particularly associated with transport. Recognising the fact that we are going through a revolution of power and transport, which of necessity means displacement and disturbance of labour, we say to the Government, "Be different from the Governments of over 100 years ago and recognise the fact that the Government have national concern to deal with unemployment, to deal with the transference and to deal with the change so as to bridge over from the old state of things to the new state of things." The Government say "No, we will fit the new industry to the old by lengthening hours, by reducing wages," in other words by heaping up the burden and the cost and the distress of the transference on the backs of the wage-earners in this country. We shall never tolerate that or agree with it, and that is why we move this Amendment.

I have attended, as far as I was able, the whole of the Sittings of the House during the progress of this long and interesting Debate and I hope, before I sit down, to make one or two observations on the impressions which I have formed. I should like to say just one word to the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, who was criticising my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft). There slipped from his lips the word "docile." Few of us like to be called docile and jet I cannot help thinking that the word came so easily to him because in his dreams at night docility must be the one virtue among all others for which he would give everything he possesses. I thank him for the few words he said in praise of the younger members of our party—I think he meant a half of what he said—and I may assure him that I have every confidence in them, and, when the time comes for him and for me to move on, I have no doubt they will be able to settle many problems in their time which baffle this generation.

This Debate has rather suffered from the fact that many of us have been apt to lose sight of the wood because of the trees in it, and a great deal of the discussion has ranged round certain figures without a true apprehension of what those figures mean. There has been a tendency in this Debate, as in many similar ones during the existence of this Parliament, to speak about the million unemployed as though they were a standing army of unemployed without hope of getting employment. That is one of the difficulties of constantly regarding one set of figures published at short intervals. We are apt to get nervous in regarding them, wondering what exactly they stand for and feeling that there is a great deal more to be learned from the bare figures than there is unless we look underneath the surface. Of this million we must remember that the personnel is constantly changing and at any given date quite half that number have been actually in recent employment and have every hope of being in employment again in a short time. [ Interruption. ] I have to make a somewhat lengthy case, which I shall argue to the best of my ability. It will all be in print and I sincerely hope hon. Members will give careful examination to it when they can see it as a whole. Of that other half million, some may hope to be employed fairly soon but a large number are men who are fitted for work, and who desire work, but who in existing circumstances will probably not obtain work in a short time unless work can be got for them in other districts.

The third class, and the smallest, is the class which has always been amongst the unemployed, the men who have never been accustomed to do more than irregular work and the small class of the permanent unemployable. I think we ought to remember that division when we talk about that million. I think also, in getting a fair and just view, we make a mistake in concentrating—although no one recognises the importance of this more than I do—on the 10 per cent, unemployed, whether it be temporarily or for a longer time, and we lose sight of the 90 per cent, who are in work. The figure has been stated in the course of this Debate. The right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken warned us against these figures but, as far as I could obtain them from the Ministry of Labour—and I have been at some pains to do it—there seems to be a consensus of opinion that in the last three years no fewer than half a million people have found a permanent footing in employment, and if that be so —and I have no reason to doubt it—it is a very marvellous tribute to the elasticity that exists in many parts of the country, though not in all, and has existed for some little time past.

That 10 per cent.—that is the million unemployed, divided as I have suggested —does not mean that 10 per cent, runs through all industry. That is one of the difficulties of the situation. Unemployment is very great in the North-east of England and in South Wales, and in parts of Scotland in the mining districts, but in the Midlands and the South of England, unemployment is comparatively rare, and in London during this last year I am assured, both by officials and by social workers, that in their view employment is better and more regular than it has been at any time in the last 20 years. All round London, as anyone can see, there has been a most remarkable growth of new factories and new industries, and in London and the South-east of England and the Midlands you have to-day, looking back for the last three years, the largest proportionate increase in the insured workers in this Kingdom—a most curious shifting of the balance of industry going on all the time. This section to which I have just referred, has two-thirds of the increase of insured persons during that period. The most remarkable industrial feature of this day is the growing importance, I will not say of the Midlands, because they have always been important, but they are growing, and the growing importance of the South of England, particularly the area round London. It becomes increasingly clear that the problem is not so much one of artificially stimulating the few industries that are suffering so much to-day as it is of making transference easy and of going on more energetically than ever with the provision of new houses in those parts of the country where the new industries are settling, so as on that side to make the transference when it comes desirable and easy.

I think there is some comfort, even to the distressed industries, in remembering that the new industries, and so many others in this country, are to-day comparatively prosperous and show signs of expansion. So that apart from any improvement in basic industries which may come from further co-operative effort, better marketing and increase of world demand—slow as those are—there is hope that it may be possible to find other work, and it is a very remarkable fact, which surprised me when I first became acquainted with it some little time ago, that in the twelve months ending in July of last year, no fewer than 30,000 men left the mining industry and secured other jobs in different parts of the country. They have secured work, amongst other things, in brickmaking, in transport, in the chemical industry and in such parts of the engineering industry as- are prosperous. Parts of the engineering industry are enjoying prosperity to-day although, as we know, some parts of it are still in the condition of depression which not so long ago ranged over the whole of the industry. While you have during these four years that depression, particularly in those great industries which were so expanded during the War, shipbuilding, iron and steel and the less prosperous parts of engineering, still you have gains in building and things appertaining to building, bricks and tiles, artificial silk, motor vehicles, electrical engineering, transport—a growing industry —and printing and publishing. We are very apt to make a mistake—and I think the right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken recognises this as much as I, judging by something he said—in looking on industry as anything static. It is a living organism. It is always changing— sometimes more rapidly than at others. Sometimes it appears static for nearly a generation, but as long it is to live it must show the usual result of life, that is growth, change, alteration and adaptability, and it is recognition on the part of Governments and of those engaged in industry of these changes, which proceed naturally—and recognition in good time —that is so desirable.

I want to look at one or two more things from which I think we may derive some encouragement before I come to other matters. There is an encouraging aspect when you consider, along with the one in ten out of work, the present day lot of the nine out of ten who are in work. The standard of life is appreciably better than it was in 1914. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] I will make my case and then later on I will produce wit- nesses who, I think, will be respected by hon. Members opposite. It is certainly better than it was three years ago, and there are two sets of records which make this clear—the change in the average rate of wages and the change in the purchasing price of goods such as are principally bought by the working classes. One or two of the figures I am going to give were quoted by an hon. Friend of mine, but I will repeat them because there is a much larger House now, and they are essential to my argument. By the end of 1920 both the rate of wages and the cost of living had increased above 1914 by about the same amount. The working week was shorter, but I will say a word about that later on. At the beginning of 1925 the reported increase in the weekly rate of wages varied between 70 and 75 per cent, above the 1914 figures. The cost of living was 80 per cent. To-day the wages are still between 70 and 75 per cent. The cost of living has fallen to 68 per cent. The purchasing power of wages for an average full-time worker is higher to-day than before the War, but I have made no account of a reduction of the working week. Those wages rates for a working week average over all to-day 47 to 48 hours, as compared with the immediate pre-War working week of 53 to 54. And if you consider wage rates in hourly rates instead of weekly, you then get your figure of between 90 per cent, and 100 per cent, increase instead of 70 per cent, and 75 per cent. So there is no question that the proceeds of an hour's work for those in employment to-day are substantially more than they were in 1914.

There is another comparison I want to make, because it leads me on to a very important subject on which I feel I must say a few words. The real wages, and everyone knows what that phrase means, in this country are better than the real wages in any other country in Europe. I quite admit, as everybody must who deals in figures, the study of these figures is surrounded by difficulties and by pitfalls. But the International Labour Office has made calculations as to real wages in the various capitals of Europe, and for their purposes real wages are the relative purchasing power in terms of food of the wages paid for an hour's work at usual time rate for an adult male in certain typical occupations That, obviously, is a rather narrow basis of comparison, but it is the only one available, and it has been calculated by the International Labour Office. Those are the figures which my hon. Friend gave to the House, and I think it will suffice without going into too many details to say that the British real wage is very nearly double that in Brussels, Rome, Vienna and Paris, and a third better than in Berlin. These are. perhaps, the principal countries in Europe where they have a considerable industrial population. I have not, for obvious reasons, taken the American figures, because in Europe to-day we cannot compete with the United States of America. But, believing as I do, and as the facts show, the standard of life has risen in this country, it has risen in proportion to other countries in Europe, In my view the most important thing is that we should maintain it against all countries and maintain it in this country.

If we want to maintain the standard of life which we have, with infinite difficulty, achieved in this country, first of all we want to be relieved from losses caused by disputes. Last year was the best year in that regard of any year since records were first available, something like 40 years ago. I have no wish to go at any length into this subject this evening, or to enter into the matters rather controversial which the right hon. Gentleman raised. I know really in regard to this we are in agreement to-day. It was only last year the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition said1 at Port Talbot: it is a national matter, and no individual wants to get any credit out of it.

Another way in which we may maintain our standard of living is by attaining a higher level of efficiency in our industries, by examining our industrial organisation, bringing it up to date in method, in machinery and in management. I rejoice to see the symptoms in this country in many industries to-day that these are the very things that are being looked into and looked into on all sides. [An HON. MEMBER: "Not in mining!"] I want to see these improvements made because I desire to see that the standard is not endangered by competition from abroad. I remember very well during this Debate in an earlier stage of it, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas) was making some observations about sheltered trades and saying that in some quarters there had been an express desire to get wages lowered in sheltered trades, but he said that as far as the railways were concerned, the railway management were much too wise even to consider that question. I want to say one thing about sheltered trades. I think I was one of the first politicians who gave attention to that subject not long after the War. There is no doubt that at that time, when the whole of the wages of this country had been thrown into the melting-pot by the events of the War, the existence of certain rates in the sheltered industries caused very great difficulty in settling other wage rates. But the difficulties between the sheltered and unsheltered trades have in the process of time become less. I always hoped that the unsheltered trades would Be able to hold on through the dark days and that in process of time, a long time it may be in some industries, they might be levelled up to the sheltered trades rather than that the sheltered trades should be pulled down to them. It is not the same thing in the comparison of real wages in this country as on the Continent of Europe. We have to take care that, as far as we can, we level up conditions in Europe towards our conditions, and do not degrade our conditions towards theirs. [An HON. MEMBER: "What about the Washington Convention?"] I am glad the hon. Member mentions that. It is exactly why I have been using that argument. I want to make some observation about it, and I should like here, if I may, to congratulate the hon. Member for King's Norton (Mr. Dennison) on an extraordinarily interesting speech, which he made earlier in the day. There were very few Members present. I found myself in agreement with a great deal of what he says. He confirms the opinion I have often supported, that the best men in this country are the iron and steel men, just as I always have an obsession, which I do not think will be shared by two hon. Members sitting there, that the Great Western Railway has the finest system in the world.

Before I come to the Hours Convention itself, first of all we have made it our business to press at Geneva for consideration by the International Labour Department of a convention dealing with machinery, and regulation of wages in low-paid and unorganised occupations, and I hope that in that way we shall get a start made in dealing with these industries. To come to the Convention. It was as long ago as 1921 that the British Government, of which my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) was then the head, and of which I was a humble member, found it necessary to inform the Secretary-General of the League of their apprehensions as to the effect of the Convention on a number of collective agreements and various practices in this country, and to intimate that in view of those difficulties the Government had no option but to decide that they were unable to ratify. Looking back, I am not sure that more progress would not have been made if the several Governments had begun with our own and had immediately proceeded with revision. However, that was not done. The British Government did their best to co-operate with other Governments.

I think people are very apt to underrate the real difficulties which are in the way of ratification of that Convention as it stands. One attempt was made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Preston (Mr. T. Shaw) when he was Minister of Labour in the Labour Government. They had a conference at Berne, and at the close of that conference a note was issued, if I remember rightly, as is often issued after conferences, saying that Ministers were all agreed on the main point. I see that my right hon. Friend smiles. As a matter of fact, when the representatives of the same Governments were convened to a conference in London a year later, widely diverse replies had been received on some of the points which we had all hoped and believed were settled at Berne. In London some measure of agreement was reached, but there it became doubtful whether all parties understood the agreement in the same sense, and those doubts have been intensified since. I do not know whether a further conference might have achieved results. I doubt it myself, because the procedure of successive interpretations is more likely to end in confusion than otherwise. The whole point of an agreement is in the carrying of it out.

Until you find that you have the chief parties absolutely agreed on the difficult points in the agreement, there is a real danger even of your power to maintain your standard of life if you leave yourselves open to competition which, in our view, may be unfair. Progress can be made by way of revision. It can be carried out in a constitutional manner as laid down in the regulations of the International Labour Organisation, and I think my right lion. Friend who was in Geneva recently put the case quite clearly when he said:

Perhaps I might give one instance of the difficulty of obtaining agreement even between two great and friendly countries like our own and France. I would like to make reference to the situation as we understand it in France. They have an eight-hour Act and the Washington Convention there has been ratified conditionally upon similar ratification by Great Britain and Germany. It is probably the fact that at this moment, and it is not denied by the French Government, in certain important trades the actual practice in France to-day is not in accordance with the Convention on such matters as, for instance, the payment of 25 per cent, overtime in all cases. Their Government have undertaken upon ratification to fall into1 line. We accept that fully and gladly. I want to put this to the House, following upon the instance which I have given. It was the London Conference to which I have referred, which took place in 1925. The French Government took the view that all the London interpretations were within the four corners of the Convention as it then existed. We feel pretty certain as regards some of the interpretations that they were in the territory of revision and not within the four corners of the Convention. We are most anxious to secure a revision which will remove doubts from the minds of all the parties, and I hope that this statement will make clear to the House our position and will enable the French Government to continue to co-operate with us, since it is quite plain that the two Governments have exactly the same thing in view.

Good propaganda but bad facts. I have always been in favour of ratifying such an agreement, once I am (convinced that the ratification is understood in foreign countries in exactly the same way as it is at home. I should regard such a Convention, if successful, as a buttress supporting our own standard of living in this country and as such I hope to see it become law. It is true, as the right hon. Gentleman says, that several years have elapsed. But an agreement of this kind in Europe is a reform which a generation ago would have been regarded as beyond the bounds of possibility, and it cannot be achieved in a moment. If it be achieved in ten or a dozen years I say that all credit will belong to those who have brought that achievement about.

I have endeavoured so far as I could to try and give a comprehensive sketch of the position of this country, dwelling rather on the majority than the minority at this moment, and I have done it be- cause I came across some words of the Leader of the Liberal party which I thought were so apt that I committed them to writing. He said:

During the last two or three days I have been reading an extraordinary interesting little article in a Labour publication by a prominent supporter of the party opposite. I will read one paragraph of what he said, because I think it embodies a profound truth. He said: problem there is to try to get the workers, especially the young workers, into other industries, without delay. I was very glad to hear one hon. Member pay a tribute to the training centres which we have started. It is rare that we get a tribute from any benches other than our own. I quite agree with his criticism when he wished there were more of them, and that they could be more quickly brought into operation. We shall use every endeavour to speed up in both respects. The only other way that I can see that any real help may be brought to these districts brings me back to the point which has been raised repeatedly during these Debates, and was raised to-day in a speech by the hon. Member for King's Norton (Mr. Dennison). The weight, the incidence of rating in these areas is killing, and the reason that we have been devoting much time and study to this question is because in our view it is fundamental. Until something can be done with regard to that particular incidence in those areas, there will never be what they need more than anything else, namely, new industries. If that question can be radically tackled there is no reason why new industries should not go into the districts where there is labour longing for employment. If we are fortunate enough to be able to deal with this question in such a way that it opens up that possibility, I hope those who are responsible leaders of labour on their part will do all that they can to help in getting those for whom they work employed under new conditions and in new-surroundings.

One thing has struck me during this Debate, and I have sat through nearly the whole of it. It is a Debate in which the Government has been censured, and it is a subject on which hon. Members opposite are more qualified to speak than on any other; yet I doubt if before this evening there has been more than 10 or 15 Members of the party opposite sitting on their benches. At any rate, the benches have been nearly empty. At one time the Liberal benches were quite empty. That shows to me that however strongly you may talk in this House, you feel yourselves that this problem is one for which no immediate remedy can be produced by anybody which is going to cure it in a moment. If your indictment were true, you would sweep us out of office to-night, because the country would not keep us in office another day. Look at the by-elections! You are not increasing your poll; you are making no headway. If your charges were true, you would win every by-election, if the country believed what you are saying about us. When the time comes when the right hon. Member for Burnley (Mr. A. Henderson) thinks it will be decent for us to have a General Election, we will

meet you on this charge or on any other which you choose to make.

rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The House divided: Ayes, 308; Noes, 120.

Division No. 2. ]]

AYES.

[ 8.0 p.m.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T

Colman, N. C. D.

Haslam, Henry C.

Albery, Irving James

Conway, Sir W. Martin

Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

Cooper, A. Duff

Henderson, Capt. R. R (Oxf'd, Henley)

Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)

Cope, Major William

Henderson, Lt.-Col. Sir V. L. (Bootle)

Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Henn, Sir Sydney H.

Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Apsley, Lord

Crawfurd, H. E.

Hills. Major John Waller

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

Astor, Viscountess

Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

Atkinson, C.

Crookshank. Cpt. H (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Cunliffe, Sir Herbert

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Balniel, Lord

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Holt. Capt. H. P.

Banks, Reginald Mitchell

Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

Homan, C. W. J.

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Dalkeith, Earl of

Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford)

Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

Hore-Belisha, Leslie

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Davies. Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N.

Betterton, Henry B.

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

Birchall, Major J. Dearman

Davies, Dr. Vernon

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.)

Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whlteh'n)

Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert

Hume, Sir G. H.

Blundell, F. N.

Drewe, C.

Hume Williams, Sir W. Ellis

Boothby, R. J. G.

Eden, Captain Anthony

Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Huntingfield, Lord

Bowyer, Captain G. E. W

Ellis, R. G.

Hurd, Percy A.

Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B.

Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

Hurst, Gerald B.

Brass, Captain W.

Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)

Brassey, Sir Leonard

Everard, W. Lindsay

Illffe, Sir Edward M.

Briant, Frank

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

Bridgeman. Rt. Hon. William Clive

Falle, Sir Bertram G.

Iveagh, Countess of

Briggs, J. Harold

Fanshawe, Captain G. D.

Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

Briscoe, Richard George

Fenby, T. D.

Jephcott, A. R.

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Flelden, E. B.

Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

Ford, Sir P. J.

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C.(Berks, Newb'y)

Foster, Sir Harry S.

Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William

Buchan, John

Fraser, Captain Ian

Kenyon, Barnet

Buckingham, Sir H.

Fremantle, Lieut. Colonel Francis E.

Kidd. J. (Linlithgow)

Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

Galbraith, J. F. W.

Kindersley, Major G. M.

Bullock, Captain M.

Ganzoni, Sir John

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan

Gates, Percy

Lamb, J. Q.

Burman, J. B.

George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd

Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

Burton, Colonel H. W.

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Glyn, Major R. G. C.

Locker-Lampson, Com. O.(Handsw'th)

Caine, Gordon Hall

Goff, Sir Park

Loder, J. de V.

Campbell, E. T.

Gower, Sir Robert

Looker, Herbert William

Carver, Major W. H.

Grace, John

Lougher, Lewis

Cassels, J. D.

Graham. Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

Cautley, Sir Henry S.

Grant, Sir J. A.

Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

Cayzer.Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.)

Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

Lumley, L. R.

Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Mac Andrew, Major Charles Glen

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H.(W'th's'w, E)

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

MacDonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Grotrian, H. Brent

McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

Maclntyre, Ian

Charteris, Brigadier-General J.

Gunston, Captain D. W.

McLean, Major A.

Chilcott, Sir Warden

Hall, Lieut. Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Macmillan, Captain H.

Christie, J. A.

Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

Macquisten, F. A.

Clayton, G. C.

Hammersley, S. S.

Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham)

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Harland, A.

Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George

Harrison, G. J. C.

Malone, Major P. B.

Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

Thomson, F C. (Aberdeen, South)

Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

Rice, Sir Frederick

Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

Meller, R. J.

Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

Merriman, F. B.

Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

Tinne, J. A.

Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

Ropner, Major L.

Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough

Mitchell, Sir W. Lana (Streatham)

Rye, F. G.

Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

Salmon, Major I.

Waddington, R.

Moore, Sir Newton J.

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Wallace, Captain D. E.

Morden, Col. W. Grant

Samuel. Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull>

Moreing, Captain A. H.

Sandeman, N. Stewart

Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

Sanders, Sir Robert A.

Warrender, Sir Victor

Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

Sandon, Lord

Waterhouse, Captain Charles

Murchison, Sir Kenneth

Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)

Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

Nelson, Sir Frank

Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

Neville, Sir Reginald J.

Shepperson, E. W.

Watts, Dr. T.

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

Wayland, Sir William A.

Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfast)

Wells, S. R.

Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

Skelton, A. N.

White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple.

Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G.(Ptrsf'ld.)

Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

Wiggins, William Martin

Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

Smith-Carington, Neville W.

Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

Oakley, T.

Smithers, Waldron

Williams, C. P. (Denbigh. Wrexham)

O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

Sprot, Sir Alexander

Wilson, Sir Murrough (Yorks, Richm'd)

Oman, Sir Charles William C.

Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G.F.

Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

Winby, Colonel L. P.

Penny, Frederick George

Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Winterton. Rt. Hon. Earl

Perring, Sir William George

Storry-Deans, R.

Wolmer, Viscount

Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

Strauss, E. A.

Womersley, W. J.

Peto. G. (Somerset, Frome)

Streatfeild, Captain S. R.

Wood, B. C. 'Somerset, Bridgwater)

Pilcher, G.

Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)

Power, Sir John Cecil

Styles, Captain H. Walter

Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

Pownall, Sir Assheton

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

Wood, Sir S. Hill-(High Peak)

Preston, William

Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

Price, Major C. W. M.

Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

Wragg, Herbert

Raine, Sir Walter

Tasker, R. Inigo.

Ramsden, E.

Templeton, W. P.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Major Sir George Hennessy and Captain Margesson.—Major Sir George Hennessy and Captain Margesson.

Rawson, Sir Cooper

Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

Rentoul, G. S.

Thompson. Luke (Sunderland)

NOES.

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Grundy, T. W.

Potts, John S.

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll)

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Ammon, Charles George

Hardie, George D.

Ritson, J.

Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

Hayday, Arthur

Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W. Bromwich)

Baker, Walter

Hayes. John Henry

Robinson. W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)

Rose, Frank H.

Batey. Joseph

Hirst, G. H.

Saklatvala, Shapurji

Beckett, John (Gateshead)

Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

Salter. Dr. Alfred

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Scurr, John

Broad, F. A.

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Sexton, James

Bromfield, William

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Bromley, J.

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

Buchanan, G.

Kelly, W. T.

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Buxton, Rt. Hon. Neal

Kennedy, T.

Sitch, Charles H.

Charleton, H. C.

Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

Slesser, Sir Henry H.

Clowes, S.

Kirkwood, D

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Cluse, W. S.

Lansbury, George

Smith, H. B. Lees (Kelghley)

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Lawrence, Susan

Snell, Harry

Compton, Joseph

Lawson, John James

Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

Connolly, M.

Lee, F.

Stamford, T. W.

Cove, W. G.

Lindley, F. W.

Stephen, Campbell

Dalton, Hugh

Lowth, T.

Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Ab'ravon)

Sutton, J. E.

Day, Colonel Harry

Mackinder, W.

Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

Dennison, R.

MacLaren, Andrew

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plalstow)

Duncan, C.

Maclean. Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

Tinker, John Joseph

Dunnico, H.

MacNeill-Weir, L.

Townend, A. E.

Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

Gardner, J. P.

March, S.

Varley, Frank B.

Gibbins, Joseph

Maxton, James

Viant, S. P.

Gillett, George M.

Mosley, Oswald

Wallhead, Richard C.

Gosling, Harry

Murnin, H.

Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

Naylor, T. E.

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Greenall, T.

Oliver, George Harold

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Palin, John Henry

Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Paling, W.

Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Wellock. Wilfred

Groves, T.

Ponsonby, Arthur

Westwood, J.

Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J

Wilson, Rt. J. (Jarrow)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Whiteley.—Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Whiteley.

Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

Windsor, Walter

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Wright, W.

Question put accordingly, "That those words be there added."

The House divided: Ayes, 137; Noes, 293.

Division No. 3. ]]

AYES.

[ 8.10 p.m.

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Hamilton. Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

Salter, Dr. Alfred

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Hardle, George D.

Scurr, John

Ammon, Charles George

Hayday, Arthur

Sexton, James

Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

Hayes, John Henry

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Baker, Walter

Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)

Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Aberfillery)

Hirst, G. H.

Short. Alfred (Wednesbury)

Batey, Joseph

Hore-Belisha, Leslie

Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

Beckett, John (Gateshead)

Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

Sitch, Charles H.

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)

Slesser, Sir Henry H.

Briant, Frank

Jenkins. W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Broad, F. A.

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)

Bromfield, William

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Snell, Harry

Bromley, J.

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

Buchanan, G.

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Stamford, T. W.

Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

Kelly, W. T.

Stephen, Campbell

Charleton, H. C.

Kennedy, T.

Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

Clowes, S.

Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

Strauss, E. A.

Cluse, W. S.

Kirkwood, D.

Sutton, J. E.

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Lansbury, George

Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

Lawrence, Susan

Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

Compton, Joseph

Lawson, John James

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

Connolly, M.

Lee, F.

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

Cove, W. G.

Lindley, F. W.

Tinker, John Joseph

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Lowth, T.

Townend, A. E.

Crawfurd, H. E.

MacDonald, Rt. Hon.J. R. (Aberavon)

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

Dalton. Hugh

Mackinder, W.

Varley, Frank B.

Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

MacLaren, Andrew

Viant, S. P.

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

Wallhead, Richard C.

Day, Colonel Harry

MacNeill-Weir, L.

Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

Dennison, R.

Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermilne)

Duncan, C.

March, S.

Watts-Morgan. Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Dunnico, H.

Maxton, James

Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

Mosley, Oswald

Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

Fenby, T. D.

Murnin, H.

Wellock, Wilfred

Gardner, J. P.

Naylor, T. E.

Westwood, J.

George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd

Oliver, George Harold

Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

Gibbins, Joseph

Palln, John Henry

Wiggins, William Martin

Gillett, George M.

Paling, W.

Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

Gosling, Harry

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

Ponsonby, Arthur

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Greenall, T.

Potts, John S.

Wilson. R. J. (Jarrow)

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Richardson, R. (Houghton-(e-Spring)

Windsor, Walter

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Ritson. J.

Wright, W.

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich)

Groves, T.

Robinson, W.C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Whiteley.—Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Whiteley.

Grundy, T. W.

Rose, Frank H.

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Saklatvala, Shapurji

NOES.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Betterton, Henry B.

Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

Birchall, Major J. Dearman

Bullock, Captain M.

Albery, Irving James

Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan

Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

Burman, J. B.

Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)

Blundell, F. N.

Burton, Colonel H. W.

Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

Boothby, R. J. G.

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

Calne, Gordon Hall

Applln, Colonel R. V. K.

Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

Campbell, E. T.

Apsley, Lord

Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B.

Carver, Major W. H.

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

Brass, Captain W.

Cassels, J. D.

Astor, Viscountess

Brassey, Sir Leonard

Cautley, Sir Henry S.

Atkinson, C.

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R.(Prtimth. S.)

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Briggs. J. Harold

Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

Balniel, Lord

Briscoe, Richard George

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

Banks, Reginald Mitchell

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

Brown, Brig.-Gen.H. C.(Berks, Newb'y)

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Buchan, John

Charterls, Brigadier-General J.

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Buckingham, Sir H.

Chilcott, Sir Warden

Christie, J. A.

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

Raine, Sir Walter

Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n)

Ramsden, E.

Clayton, G. C.

Hume, Sir G. H.

Rawson, Sir Cooper

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis

Rentoul, G. S.

Cockerill, Brig. General Sir George

Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. sir Aylmer

Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

Cohen, Major J. Brunel

Huntingfield, Lord

Rice, Sir Frederick

Colman, N. C. D.

Hurd, Percy A.

Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

Conway, Sir W. Martin

Hurst, Gerald B.

Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

Cooper, A. Duff

Iliffe, Sir Edward M.

Ropner, Major L.

Cope, Major- William

Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

Iveagh, Countess of

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)

Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

Rye, F. G.

Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

Jephcott, A. R.

Salmon. Major I.

Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Crookshank. Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro)

Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

Sandeman, N. Stewart

Cunliffe, Sir Herbert

Kindersley, Major G. M.

Sanders, Sir Robert A.

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Sandon, Lord

Dalkeith, Earl of

Lamb, J. Q

Shefield, Sir Berkeley

Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford)

Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

Shepperson, E. W.

Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belf'st.)

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovll)

Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

Skelton, A. N.

Davies, Dr. Vernon

Loder, J. de V.

Slaney, Major P. Kenyon

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Long, Major Eric

Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert

Looker, Herbert William

Smith-Carington, Neville W.

Drewe, C.

Lougher, Lewis

Smithers, Waldron

Eden, Captain Anthony

Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

Sprot, Sir Alexander

Ellis, R. G.

Lumley, L. R.

Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.

Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston. s. M.)

MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

Everard, W. Lindsay

Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

Storry-Deans, R.

Falle, Sir Bertram G.

MacIntyre, Ian

Streatfeild, Captain S. R.

Fanshawe, Captain G. D.

McLean, Major A.

Stuart, Crichton- Lord C.

Flelden, E. B.

Macmillan, Captain H.

Styles, Captain H. W.

Ford, Sir P. J.

Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

Foster, Sir Harry S.

Macquisten, F. A.

Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

Fraser, Captain Ian

Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham)

Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

Tasker, R. Inlgo.

Galbraith, J. F. W.

Malone, Major p. B.

Templeton, W. P.

Ganzoni, Sir John

Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Gates, Percy

Margesson, Captain D.

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

Glyn, Major R. G. C.

Meller, R. J.

Tinne, J. A.

Goff, Sir Park

Merriman, F. B.

Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

Gower, Sir Robert

Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Grace, John

Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough

Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

Grant, Sir J. A.

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Waddington, R.

Grattar Doyle, Sir N.

Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Moore, Sir Newton J.

Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H.(W'th's'w, E)

Morden, Colonel W. Grant

Warrender, Sir Victor

Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

Moreing, Captain A. H.

Waterhouse, Captain Charles

Grotrian, H. Brent

Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

Gunston, Captain D. W.

Murchison, Sir Kenneth

Watts, Dr. T.

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Nelson, Sir Frank

Wayland, Sir William A.

Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

Neville, Sir Reginald J.

Wells, S. R.

Hammersley, S. S.

Newman, sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple.

Harland, A.

Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

Harrison. G. J. C.

Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

Nicholson Col. Rt Hn. W. G (Ptrst'ld.)

Wilson, Sir Murrough (Yorks. Richm'd)

Haslam, Henry C.

Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

Oakley, T.

Winby. Colonel L. P.

Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Henderson, Lt.-Col. Sir V. L. (Bootle)

O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. H.

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.

Oman, Sir Charles William C.

Wolmer, Viscount

Henn, Sir Sydney H.

Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

Womersley, W. J.

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Penny, Frederick George

Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

Hills, Major John Waller

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Wood, E. (Chester, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)

Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

Perring Sir William George

Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebonel

Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

Wood, Sir S. Hill(High Peak)

Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy

Peto G. (Somerset, Frome)

Woodcock, Colonel H. C

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Philipson, Mabel

Wragg, Herbert

Holt, Captain H. P.

Pilcher, G.

Homan, C. W. J.

Power, Sir John Cecil

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.

Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

Pownall, Sir Assheton

Major Sir George Hennessy and Captain Wallace.

Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng Universities)

Preston, William

Horlick, lieut.-Colonel J. N

Price, Major C. W. M.

Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

Main Question again proposed.

National Expenditure

I beg to move, at the end of the Question, to add the words £7,683,000,000, to which must be added a very substantial sum for the accrued interest on Savings Bonds, a sum which maybe estimated at about £120,000,000. This is in spite of the fact that since the termination of the War there has been spent in the form of Budget surpluses and in the form of Sinking Funds provided by the taxpayer, no less a sum than £741,635,000 in diminution of the National Debt. No doubt, it will be explained that there has been a diminution in the rate of interest payable, but that has not afforded any substantial relief to the taxpayer while it has increased, by the conversion operations involved, the ultimate liability of the taxpayer—which is a most questionable method of procedure.

In discussing the question of economy it is well to remember how the increased expenditure has arisen. I take the year 1913–1914 and the estimates for the current year 1927–1928. In 1913–1914 the total Imperial expenditure provided for was £199.1 millions, and the current year's expenditure is estimated to be £833.4 millions. A very large sum of that increase arises from the Consolidated Fund Services, chiefly interest on debt and replayment of debt, rising from £39 millions to £412.9 millions. It is remarkable how very large savings have been made upon both the Army and the Navy. The expenditure on the Army before the War was £28.3 millions. In the present year it is estimated to be £41.6 millions, while on the Navy there was spent £48.8 millions and the estimated expenditure now is £58 millions. That clearly means that a heavy reduction has been made in the expenditure upon the fighting forces, and very little more can be done there except to make some reduction in the expenditure upon civilian staffs, which are notoriously swollen and very much greater than those which were carried by these services before the War. Then there is the new Air Force, which costs to-day £15,500.000—and there is no doubt the Ministry of Air is an exceedingly costly institution to the taxpayer of this country, not to say an extravagant institution—but there seems to be great reluctance among Members of the Government and even in the Treasury itself seriously to attack the non-effective expenditure upon the Air Force.

I can only deal with these figures on the broadest lines. The Civil Service before the War in round figures cost £54,000,000. This year it is estimated to cost £235,000,000—a colossal increase and there it is that the largest increase in expenditure of the present day is to be found. This service, of course, contains the pensions fund and the health and insurance fund, representing a very considerable sum, but one by no means proportionate to the increase which has been made since the War. It will be found, I suggest, that the enormously increased staffs in the Civil Service account for the major portion of this increased expenditure and it is only by cutting down the swollen civilian staffs of Government offices that we will ever effect real and substantial economy in our national expenditure. It is found in business that it is necessary to make changes, where staffs become swollen in one direction and diminished in others, and it is well known that in business organisation there has to be a readjustment of office staffs, involving in some cases substantial reduction and in others expansion. But experience shows that the superfluous member of a staff costs not only his own salary but expenses of all kinds in postage, paper, messengers and activities in many directions. It is far cheaper, from a business point of view, to spend something on giving adequate and generous terms to superfluous persons who are no longer required because their work has ceased to be essential, than it is to keep them on making work for other people and spending money in various ways.

No suggestion has been made yet as to how economy is to be brought about in Imperial expenditure. In fact, we have had speeches from members of the Government saying that everything possible has been and is being done—that very little remains to be done. But the fact remains that the taxpayers of the country are overburdened by taxation, indeed nearly overwhelmed by it, and there is a great danger to the State in the fact that a great deal of this tax payment is capital expenditure. The State has no capital except that which is accumulated by individual citizens, and by squandering the capital of these individuals we are dipping deeply into the capital fund of the country. It is exceedingly doubtful whether under present conditions that capital fund can be replaced by the successors of those who built up the accumulations of wealth which are so heavily diminished by the existing Death Duties. Many persons in this country hold that we are spending beyond our revenue. Much of the Supertax, it is said, is paid out of capital— a very serious state of things if it is true, and it is certainly true in some cases. The ordinary taxpayer who is engaged in commerce, building up a business and trying to develop industry is hampered in every direction by the overwhelming burden of taxes which he has to pay and the incessant and increasing demands of those who have to collect taxes.

There is no escape. If a loophole be found anywhere, some ingenious draftsman employed by the Treasury or some other Government office stops what is called the leakage, in the next Budget. New words are introduced and the Judges themselves say when cases are brought into the Courts, that it is impossible to know what the Legislature means or what the Treasury and other Government Departments mean. This all works out to the disadvantage of the taxpayer who has less and less ease from the exactions which are laid upon him. I must not longer occupy the time of the House, because there are many others who wish to speak, but this Debate is raised, not in any spirit hostile to the Government, but to give an opportunity for some explanation of this important matter which has been omitted from the Gracious Speech from the Throne. My friends and I who have put our names to this Amendment do not propose to press it to a Division, unless the Government should make some utterance which would drive us into the lobby, but that is not to be anticipated. At any rate, at the commencement of a new Session, the Government are entitled to have an opportunity to state their policy in dealing with finance and how they propose to effect economies. Consequently, we will wait with the greatest interest to hear what is to be done in this direction. I know we cannot anticipate the Budget, but we can talk about reductions in expenditure, and then see how the Budget will be adjusted to the policy of the Government.

I beg to second the Amendment. I desire at the outset to associate myself with the expression of regret that my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Burton (Colonel Gretton) has expressed at the reason which deprives us of the presence of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to-night. To those of us who have concerned ourselves in the last few months with this vast subject of economy, many very important considerations and conclusions must inevitably have presented themselves. As a loyal member of the Government party, there is ever uppermost in my mind the vital necessity of fulfilling to the utmost degree that promise, to which we are all pledged, of "exercising the most rigid economy in administration," which, as my right hon. and gallant Friend has quoted, are the exact words of the Prime Minister in his Election Address. No one who is an active member of our party, either in the House or in the constituencies, can be in any doubt of the great gravity with which will be viewed any inability on the part of this Government to make real and substantial reductions in national expenditure in 1928–29. Equally, no one who has studied this problem should underestimate or minimise in any sense the extraordinary and incredible difficulties which must inevitably have faced this Government in their efforts to carry out the party pledge, given by the Prime Minister in his Election Address and confirmed in every Gracious Speech from the Throne in the life of this Parliament with the exception of the one which we are now debating.

While, I hope, in no way decrying what I know to be the tremendous efforts of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and his assistants to show us some material result in the decrease of national expenditure, I must confess with all frankness that I am gravely disappointed at the result. No one knows better than I do that in the abstract there is no more popular heading than "economy," but in the particular there is no more unpopular form of administration that could possibly be put forward by any kind of Ministry than an administration which tends to real, particular economy. Again, it is often lost sight of that there can be no real and true economy without concurrent wise expenditure, and on this subject, probably more than on any subject which we debate in this House, it is really difficult to preserve a due and just sense of proportion. I well remember, as must all hon. Members, with what acclamation that announcement was made a year ago in the House by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in regard to the three Ministries which, he then gave us to understand, were to be abolished. For the purpose of greater accuracy, I have extracted the relevant words from that wonderful speech that he made. They are: Laughter. ] Hon. Members above the Gangway may laugh, but they cannot altogether divest themselves of responsibility nor deny the weight and importance of psychology, whether in the taxpayer or in the electorate. Reverting to the subject of these three Ministries, it seems to me, taking a plain and, I hope, common-sense view, that it was obvious either that the original suggestion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, with the full force of the Cabinet behind him, was right, and the subsequent protests of public bodies and individuals were wrong, or vice versa. What has. happened in the meantime to lead us to suppose that those three Ministries are not in effect in statu quo ante and that there is no possible idea or question now of any axeing or abolishing to be done at all? It seems to me that if we as a Government are going to carry out the pledge that we made to the electorate, not only in the letter but in the spirit, we must, when we put forward a suggestion designed to economise for the benefit of all the people in this country, press it to a logical conclusion, with courage and tenacity of purpose, and not be ridden off by individuals or public bodies, who, although their motives may be entirely disinterested, perhaps take a somewhat distorted view of what we consider should be one whole national question of economy.

As I have said, there is a great difficulty in preserving a sense of proportion. For instance, I wonder how many people in this country realise what the cost of a so-called popular Budget would be. I understand that a popular Budget, touching Income Tax, tobacco, tea, coffee, cocoa, beer, and sugar, would cost this country about £85,000,000. I wish to emphasise with all the power at my command that I think the country should be told in the plainest possible language and figures, in order that they may preserve their sense of proportion, just exactly what a so-called popular Budget would really mean. Sixpence off the Income Tax would mean about £32,000,000; a penny per lb. off sugar would mean about £15,500,000; a penny per pint off beer would represent £28,000,000; a penny per lb. off tea, coffee, and cocoa would be about £1,500,000; and a penny per oz. off tobacco would be, I believe, about £8,000,000. When we regard this stupendous total of £85,000,000, and regard it side by side with what we understand to be the direct cost of the general strike and the coal stoppage, which is about £60,000,000, it will be seen that the path of economy, which I know the Cabinet and the Chancellor of the Exchequer are endeavouring to pursue, is strewn with incredible difficulties.

As between those of us who desire to assist the Government in this problem and the Government, there is a gulf which perhaps could be bridged rather more efficiently than it has hitherto been. The Ministerial attitude is courtesy itself; we have nothing but politeness and courtesy from them, but still I think their attitude, in fact, is:" Well, here are our figures; you yourself have quoted what a popular Budget would cost; how do you propose to encompass these enormous economies?" If we amateur economists are indicted on the ground that we do not put forward any constructive proposals, it is an indictment which finds me unrepentant, because it does not to me that the primary object of a private Member is to supply constructive proposals; his main duty is to vote "Aye" or "No" on any proposals. But if it be contended, as it may very reasonably be, that if we do not put forward constructive proposals, then we have no right to criticise, my answer is that for many years the control of the private Member over Government finance has been almost less than nothing. I would add further on this point that it is unquestionably the obvious duty of any private Member who knows the feeling in hundreds of constituencies up and down the country, to come to this House on the very few occasions on which opportunity offers for Debate, in order to voice that feeling, provided always that he considers a prima facie case has been made out that Government economies have not perhaps been made to the extent that they might have been.

Safe in the seclusion of my Gloucestershire home, I was meditating last Friday evening as to the course this Debate might take, when I heard the well-known tones of the Chancellor of the Exchequer through the medium of my wireless installation. He prefaced his remarks by saying that under a promise given, I presume, to the British Broadcasting Corporation, he could not include any matter of political controversy, and then proceeded, quite properly, to allude to the Debate in which we are participating to-night. I say properly, because there is no question of controversy. I regard it as one of the best things in Conservative politics that a large body of that party can meet the Government on the Floor of the House and discuss calmly and moderately a question on which they differ. I do not want to be provocative, but it is not a thing that could happen in Labour politics. The Chancellor mentioned in his speech that the Civil Service had been reduced in personnel by no less than 100,000 people in nine years, and it is just on that point that I desire to say a word or two.

I do not suppose that anywhere in Great Britain, wherever you find a few people gathered together talking politics, it would be possible to find a group of any size where the opinion has not been expressed by perhaps four out of every five that all Government offices have a redundant staff. I give only one instance. The staff at the Admiralty in 1914 was 2,062, and the cost per annum was £483,000. The staff in 1927 was 3,154, and the cost £1,238,000. Who shall blame these people in reaching such a conclusion in face of these figures? I do not. I make no indictment, and I ask for no answer to these points, but who shall blame four out of five of the people who talk politics if they think that Government offices are redundant? If this belief of theirs be wrong, a very grave injustice is being done to the Civil Service. If, on the other hand, it be right, an equally grave injustice is being done to the taxpayer, and I suggest to the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, and through him to my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that he should proceed here and now to settle this vexed question once and for all, to lay the ghost that haunts this subject, if, indeed, there be a ghost. I suggest that a small Select Committee of only three Members of this House, one from each party, should be forthwith appointed, and that the chairman of it should be one of the chairmen of the big joint stock banks. I suggest that the terms of reference should be simple, namely, to find out whether there is indeed a redundant staff in any of the Government offices. I am confident that the Civil Service would welcome it, and the people would welcome it as settling once for all a vexed question.

This leads me to another aspect of that great Service. I have an abounding and deep-seated faith and admiration for those in authority in the higher ranks of the Civil Service; in their hands are duties of great complexity and magnitude. I believe that there is nothing within reason that their public spiritedness, their efficiency, and their loyalty cannot encompass, and I further believe that it should not be impossible with their whole hearted co-operation to achieve departmental economies which in the aggregate would constitute no small figure. We have heard a great deal as to rationing State Departments. I dislike the word" ration," because I think it takes many of us back to the practice of having things thrown at one and being told to make the best of them, but I separate what I call the ministerial economies and the departmental economies, and I will give the Financial Secretary to the Treasury one instance to show what I mean. Last summer the tenth session of the International Labour Conference sat in Geneva. Two Government delegates, one employers' delegate and one work-peoples' delegate went to that Conference. These three classes of delegates were supplied with no less than six advisers each, so that there was a party of 18 advisers and four delegates for 21 days and the journey back again. I would assure the Financial Secretary to the Treasury that this is in no sense an indictment, and I do not question it, and there are hundreds of thousands of people in England who do not question it. But I give it as a case of what might possibly be a departmental economy. I believe there are hundreds of others which might be made. It is a very difficult thing to ask the head of any big department to economise in the way I suggest, because, knowing their loyalty and public spirit, I know their whole life is bound up in what I may call the regimental spirit of their department. Their one idea and the driving force behind them is the efficient progress and esprit de corps of their department. But I do not believe it will be trying them too much to suggest that departmental activities may be held over and as a result large departmental economies be made. I have already alluded to the almost total lack of control over Government expenditure. We all know that there are two great Committees, the Public Accounts Committee and the Estimates Committee. As I am not a member of either I can very safely pay florid compliments to both those Committees, and all hon. Members know that they do magnificent work, but hon. Members know also, or should know, that their main work is post mortem, and, in addition, that they are not allowed to advise or pronounce upon matters relating to policy. This group of ours is an irregular offspring of the Conservative party. [ Interruption. ] Thank you; if I may use that term, it is an illegitimate offspring of the Conservative party. But we are very and genuinely anxious to strengthen the Government's hands, and, moreover, to strengthen the Chancellor of the Exchequer's hands, and I do suggest that there may possibly be an opening for yet a third Committee— temporarily anyway— to advise the Chancellor of the Exchequer, or to be there to advise the Chancellor of the Exchequer if necessary, on matters which undoubtedly will arise in the next few years, and certainly in this year, as I understand, far-reaching and drastic economies are to be foreshadowed.

I feel that I have almost exceeded my time, but I have one or two more words to say. Some 50 or 60 years ago Mr. Gladstone made an entry in his diary— and he noted it with some asperity— that he had just returned from a Cabinet meeting which had lasted four hours, during which they had discussed the Estimates of that day, and at which—and this was where the asperity of his comment came in—the then Chancellor of the Exchequer had not said a single word. I am confident that is an impeachment which could not possibly be presented against our present Chancellor of the Exchequer. If I may use a very fantastic hypothesis, I would like to say that if T were the head of a big spending Department, and were present at a Cabinet meeting of 21—which is the enormous number of our present Cabinet—and the Estimates of one of my colleagues were "on the mat," I fear, having a reasonably honest ego, that there would be in my mind a subconscious bias that I should have to support my colleague in the fight he was making against his Estimates being reduced, well knowing that sooner or later he would be in my position and would, I hope, feel bound on his part to support me when my Estimates in turn came "on the mat" for consideration. I think that is a fairly reasonable and commonsense way of looking at it.

I feel with the arrogance, the boldness, if you like, of my generation that if our Cabinet must remain at 21 we ought to have an inside Estimates Committee consisting of only three Ministers, none of whom has a Department of his own, to whom should be submitted in the last resort any dispute between the Chancellor and a Department. After all, it is the main duty of the Chancellor to see that the Departments' Estimates are kept down to the lowest figure compatible with public safety and efficiency, and this inside Cabinet should determine any particular difference, in order that, when this almost yearly controversy comes on, there may be a reasonably impartial trio who will decide between the claims of the Chancellor for a reduction and the very legitimate aspirations of the heads of Departments that their Departments must progress in efficiency almost irrespective of expenditure. In conclusion I would only say that I yield to no one in this country or in this House in my loyal adherence to the Conservative party, as I yield to no one in my admiration of the courage and genius of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but I have concerned myself with this great question of national economy, and I shall continue to do so, because I believe with all the sincerity of which I am capable that in this great question lies the whole electoral future of the party to which I have the honour to belong.

9.0 p.m.

I am sure the whole House will have sympathized with the hon. Member for Stroud (Sir F.Nelson) in his almost pathetic disappointment at the action of the Chancellor of the Exchequer with regard to the resurrected Ministries, but in spite of my sympathy I cannot altogether refrain from a smile at the simplicity which he has shown in confusing the words of the Chancellor with his performances. The mistake he has made in this matter is really typical of his whole misunderstanding of the financial questions in this country. He has put forward a reduction in the staff of the Civil Service and a reduction of the salaries of civil servants as though that really were the point at issue. Does he realise that if all the members of the Civil Service worked for no wages at all the reduction in the national expenditure would amount to only a very few millions, and that it would make practically no difference to the sum total? The Mover of this Amendment understood the position far better. He realised, what I think the seconder only had a faint glimmering of, that the only way in which large reductions of expenditure can be made is not by reducing staffs but by reducing the services for which those staffs exist.

I made no suggestion that any staff should be reduced at all. I made no indictment, I made no accusation. I said it was a prevalent belief in the country, and I challenge the hon. Member to deny it.

The hon. Member is under a misapprehension. Where he has made a mistake is in thinking that even if you did reduce the staffs you would make any considerable difference in the Budget figures. As I was saying when I was interrupted, the Mover understood the position much better. He understood that the only way in which any considerable reduction could be effected would be by reducing the services for which the staffs exist, and it is just there that I find myself diverging in my views from those who call themselves supporters of the economy theory with regard to Government expenditure. The real fact is that hon. Members who take that view do not understand the meaning of the word "economy" itself. Economy is really a Greek word level at which has father had left it. At the other end of the scale there is the business man who takes all the necessary steps by wise expenditure and even by extensive expenditure to build up his business on lines which make it profitable. It is possible, of course, to have managers who merely waste the money, but it is the essence of true economy carefully to watch the dangers to which businesses are liable.

With regard to this nation, in precisely the same way, I find myself at complete variance with those who preach parsimony masquerading under the title of economy. What they really want to cut down are the social services, and, if they want to do that, then they are against this country being a Great Britain. The great England, which is the country that I serve, is not at the back of their thoughts; and, if they had their way instead of a great England, we should have a mean country, with mean men and women living in mean houses and mean streets. It is because I do not wish to have a future like that for my country that I am entirely opposed to parsimony. While hon. Members opposite blame the Chancellor of the Exchequer for not cutting down expenditure more than he has done, I blame him for cutting it down to the extent of reducing the health development of our country. I regret that the educational system, which was built up on new and broader lines during the late Labour Government, was cut down under the instructions of the present Chancellor of the Exchequer. I see that the broad stairway leading from elementary to secondary and higher education has been narrowed down to a ladder. The President of the Board of Education, at the behest of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Government, has refused to arrange that even at some future date the educational age of the children of the working people of this country shall be raised.

I turn from education to health. I remember the Economy (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill which, in my opinion, ought to have been called the Parsimony Bill. I remember the various things which the Chancellor of the Exchequer did through that Measure. First of all, he defaulted on the National Health Insurance. [An HON. MEMBMER:"No!"] The position was that under the National Health Insurance the State had covenanted to pay certain sums to meet the contributions of employers and workpeople. The Chancellor of the Exchequer arranged that the covenanted proportion which the State had agreed to pay should be cut down. What has been the result of doing that? The approved societies, which were hoping to extend year by year their benefits by including dental treatment and additional benefits for women at child-birth, now realise that that prospective extension of benefits cannot take place.

The same thing was done in regard to the contribution of the State to the Unemployment Insurance Fund. In that same Bill the Chancellor of the Exchequer reduced the share which the State up to that time had paid, and the result has been that the Unemployment Insurance Fund has been getting further and further into arrear, and we have had all the little nasty mean attempts to cut down the opportunities of the unemployed men and women which were found in the last Unemployment Insurance Bill. There has also been a reduction in the training of the unemployed which I think is a most uneconomic thing. When men, women, and children are unemployed that is the best time for developing training. At the present time, children between 14 and 16 years of age are not trained and the women are not being trained. Hon. Members opposite seem to think that nearly all women belonging to the working class ought to go in for domestic service, and the Government have cut down the allowances for the industrial training of women, and even in regard to domestic service they have reduced the grant. Surely this is a most uneconomic course to take. Then there is the Road Fund which was also cut down by the Economy Bill.

No one can deny that such methods of development which have been curtailed are of the greatest value. But it is said that we cannot afford the money. The rigiht hon. and gallant Member for Burton (Colonel Gretton) even said he doubted whether it was not an actual fact that the capital wealth of this country was being gradually reduced and we were spending more than our income. If the right hon. and gallant Gentleman will turn to the pages of the "Economist" he will find it stated there that, instead of the capital of this country being actually reduced year by year, the latest returns show that it is being built up to the extent of £500,000,000 per year. Again, it is argued that the money taken by the Income Tax would fructify better in the hands of individuals. I do not want to cause ill-feeling by pointing to the many extravagant and useless ways in which money is spent by the richer classes. I will take for granted that a great deal of it is well spent, but even then we must admit that the whole of it is not well spent, and, in my view, no money could be better spent than by improving the lives and the health of the people, and upon the education of the children of this country.

Personally, I think there is no capital greater than life, and there is no wealth greater than the healthy, vigorous life of men and women; and there is no development in the country of any kind which can be better than the development of the intelligence, the knowledge and the vigour of the children of this nation. Again, on the purely material side, development of the roads gives work to the people who make the roads, it enables the motor-car industry to flourish, it prevents the waste which arises from traffic obstacles and delay; and money spent in that way is of the utmost utility. Such things as these seem to me to be the things on which the nation ought to spend its money, and any true economy would put these things in the first place. If the right hon. and hon. Gentlemen who have moved and supported this Amendment would really see that the social services are the vital things, and if they want those services to be administered carefully and economically, then I will go all the way with them; but if, instead of that, what they want to do is to cut down those social services in order that there may be a larger income for the well-to-do, then I think that their so-called economy is nothing but a narrow parsimony, which makes for a mean country, and is only the result of a mean mind.

Of all the speeches which a politician is called upon to make, it seems to me that there can be none which can be embarked upon with greater confidence than a speech in favour of general economy. Such a speech is easy when the economy we propose is at the expense of some form of Government activity which we or our friends particularly dislike. It is easier still if we confine ourselves to singing the praises of a virtue to which all parties in the House pay lip service. But if we endeavour to leave these general conditions, and put forward some practical proposals whereby the cause of frugal and judicious management of State affairs may be furthered, then we find ourselves faced with considerable difficulties, and those difficulties are made even greater when we realise that the desire for economy has during recent weeks been very closely associated with a vehement propaganda in favour of 6d.off the Income Tax. A reduction of national taxation is not a necessary corollary of national or governmental economy, and I contend that the driving force towards economy has been very considerably hampered, and not helped, by this propaganda in favour of a reduction of the Income Tax.

We all know that taxes are onerous; we all desire to see taxation alleviated; but to put forward proposals which are impracticable, and to suggest that the salvation of this country in respect of its trade is going to come by taking 6d. off the Income Tax, is to my mind a very serious mistake. As a business man, I deplore the tendency which is noticeable in certain trades to burke the necessity for reorganisation and amalgamation and to use this cry of a reduction of the Income Tax as a cloak for industrial inefficiency. The majority of the really depressed trades are not in a position to pay, but I imagine that, by a reduction or some alteration of local taxation such as is intimated in the Gracious Speech from the Throne we shall do much more to help our depressed trades than by an alleviation of direct taxation.

We hear many people talking about 6d. off the Income Tax, but I wonder how many people realise what it will mean. After all, you cannot reduce direct taxation by reducing the Income Tax unless at the same time you do something towards reducing indirect taxation, by-taking something off sugar or something off beer. It will cost £32,000,000 to take 6d. of the Income Tax; it will cost £28,000,000 to take Id. off beer; it will cost £15,500,000 to take Id. off sugar. Those people who are so anxious to get 6d. off the Income Tax must, if they are genuine in their desire, be able to visualise the possibility of a reduction of expenditure in the neighbourhood of £75,000,000. Where are we to look for that amount of savings? What trees are we to knock down? What branches are we to prune?

On all sides one hears the statement that the nation cannot afford an annual expenditure of £833,000,000; but how many people are aware—I certainly was not until I went into the. figures—that the real figure for national expenditure is nearer £700,000,000 than £800,000,000? Most of our authorities take their figures from the Financial Statement which is issued by the Chancellor of the Exchequer when opening the Budget, and they take the final figure on the last page; but really that figure is not, on a proper, businesslike view, the figure of national expenditure; it is a cash statement showing the amount which is paid out by the Treasury. Those figures are artificially inflated. They are inflated, for instance, on the Post Office account. We pay out from the Treasury, in respect of the Post Office, £54,800,000, and we receive £62,000,000. If the proprietor of a business making a profit of £1,000 per annum were asked to estimate what his expenditure was, and if he were to add the cost of carrying on his business and put that into his figures for expenditure, he would be looked upon more or less as a lunatic. In the same way this business of the Post Office is carried on by the State, and, as far as the State is concerned, it is the result of the trading that matters, and not the figures which inflate the balance-sheet on either side.

Similarly, in the case of the Road Fund, we pay out £19,500,000, and we receive in Motor Vehicle Duties £24,000,000. Again, in the case of the Sinking Fund, we set aside in this Budget £65,000,000. Surely it cannot be contended, on any reasonable view of national expenditure, that the £65,000,000 which we set aside in order to pay off debt is expenditure. I know there are people who say," You raise that money from the people, and, therefore, whatever you do with it, it must be expenditure"; but, if you take that view, if you say that the money which flows from the people to the Treasury is expenditure, then you must take the opposite view that the money which flows from the Treasury to the people is not expenditure, in which case you come to the conclusion that the £305,000,000 which is paid by the Treasury in respect of debt is not expenditure. I am not saying that that argument is true, but am pointing out that from this point of view the £65,000,000 is not a legitimate figure to be included under national expenditure. Therefore, in any proper, businesslike balance-sheet, we should subtract from this Budget statement the figure of £141,000,000, giving our real national expenditure as £692,000,000.

Now I would like to divide that expenditure into two main groups—first, the group over which Parliament and the Government have no real practical control and, secondly, the group in which Parliament is directly interested and which it can control. In the first group, there is the £63,000,000 for War pensions. I do not suppose any party in the House would propose to deal with that, so that there is £63,000,000 which cannot be dealt with without some form of repudiation. In the same way there is the £305,000,000 for debt charges which cannot be dealt with without some form of repudiation, giving you £368,000,000 which is outside the power of Parliament. Then the other group of £293,000,000, for which Parliament is directly responsible, contains £67,000,000 for various pensions such as old age pensions and widows' and orphans' pensions, £102,000,000 for defence, and £105,000,000 for various grant services such as education, agriculture and housing. Parliament can control this expenditure, and those who are particularly desirous of reducing national and governmental expenditure should state which of these grant services they desire to see reduced. That would be a definite proposition, but two facts are plain from these figures; one is that the Government cannot do anything against the will of Parliament, and the figures are the responsibility of Parliament, and, secondly, that within the realm of those figures there is no possibility of getting a reduction of anything like £75,000,000. The remaining part of our national expenditure is £31,000,000 and of that £11,000,000 goes in the expenses for collecting the revenue and the other £20,000,000 is for various expenses and various miscellaneous services.

There are a number of financial critics who say, "I agree that you cannot take any specific Vote and reduce it by a set specific amount, but, if you take the whole of the Civil Service, if you tighten up your administration, if you effect economies in that way, then you will be able to get the desired reduction." But what are the facts? The total wage expense of all the civil servants on the Civil Service basis, with the exception of those who are collecting taxes, comes to £17,500,000. If you were to make a reduction of 10 per cent, on their wages, an impracticable and indeed ridiculous proposal, you would be able to take less than a halfpenny from the Income Tax. Similarly, if the whole of our revenue were automatically to collect itself and were to fall, as it were, from the skies, then the reduction of national taxation would enable you to obtain a reduction of 2d. in the pound. Look at it whichever way you will, this demand for 6d. in the pound off the Income Tax is a delusion and a snare. The Government can economise, the Government should economise, and I believe the Government will economise, but to affect the thoughts of the business community so that they begin to think that this demand for 6d. off the Income Tax is a reasonable and legitimate expectation is, to my mind, neither good business nor sound politics.

This is not the first time that a Debate on economy has been raised in this House. I cannot help thinking that some hon. Members have probably private practice elsewhere, especially if they are married. Like old Father William in their youth, they have probably debated each question with their wives, and the muscular strength that is given to their jaws would certainly carry them through the very short time allotted to this Debate, but hon. Members will also remember that such debates have an unfortunate tendency to be very inconclusive. The lady will reply that every economy is being done that can be done, and that is the end. I can almost hear —and I regret with other Members who have spoken to-night the fact that the right hon. Gentleman is unable to be here—the Chancellor of the Exchequer making the same speech from the Front Bench to-night. He will explain how economies are being made, how every saving has been explored, how cruisers have been scrapped and airships and submarines built, how squadrons of cavalry and horse guns have been dismounted and tanks and dragons have been built, how the staffs of Government Departments have been reduced while others have been extended and new Departments created. That is not the way to tackle this question of economy. Any married couple that went on bickering over these small details would only make themselves miserable, and sooner or later they would be faced with the question, as I believe we are faced to-day, "Are we living within our income or are we not?" If we are living within our income, if we can afford the expenditure, then let us stop grousing, let us reduce taxation, and that will be the end of it. But, if we are not living within our income, then let us face the issue like men and get down to the roots of the matter.

The hon. Member for West Leicester (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence) in his speech delivered an argument which is one which I have heard repeated from the Government side time and time again. The whole question of economy is so great, the national expenditure goes into hundreds of millions—how can we possibly effect this great issue by merely reducing here and there a Minister's salary and here and there reducing or doing away with a certain number of permanent officials? It is not a question of salaries. We can never get down to rock bottom if we only think of salaries. It is the question of the work that is done. The hon. Member for West Leicester mentioned that, and gave an illustration from the business world. That illustration goes further to prove my point than anything else. If the work is reproductive, if the work is worth while, then it is not economy, and could never be called economy to do away with salaries where the work itself is reproductive. But, if the work is unnecessary, you get the evil beginning, because unnecessary work breeds more and more unnecessary work, and that is where the money is spent. I would suggest that if any business were run on the same lines with the administration of this country, that business would be broke in a year.

It is very easy to sit back and think, as we Should all like to, that the administration of the country is working smoothly and economically and all is well. I can imagine the hon. Member for West Leicester going in a car through some of the pleasant vales of Wiltshire over the co-operative farms in summer. He would see a pleasant sight in front of him, with cattle grazing in beautiful grass and taking shelter under thick fences, and he would think, after all, that agriculture cannot be in such a bad way. But let him ride over the country in winter, and he will see the real nakedness of the land. He made a point particularly on the question of the difference between parsimony and economy, and that is where he would see it. He would see on the land which looked so nice in summer, that in reality the fences are being allowed to grow, to spread out and encroach more and more on the land. You could only tell by making an inventory of the acreage what is lost thereby. He would see that the ditches, which looked all right in summer, have never been dug out, because the farmers are trying to save labour, and gaps in the fence have been filled up by putting a hurdle or a piece of wire across.

That is the difference between parsimony and economy, and exactly the same thing is happening, to my mind, in the administration of this country, which has been allowed to grow and grow and grow until it is becoming a greater weight than the actual work it is reproducing in the world, and, as in the case of the farm, you must prune and cut down or else you will take away the vitality and efficiency of the Departments themselves. During the War, I was a regimental officer, as so many hon. Members were, and perhaps I shared the regimental officer's opinion of the staff and the way the staff worked. Of course, one had reasons for that, and yet I wanted to see the other side of the picture as well, and for that reason I served for a short time in two different jobs, and I came to the conclusion that the other side of the picture was equally important and, whereas there was certainly some method in what the regimental officer considered the staff's madness, there was also some madness in their method. There is a game that used to be played called "Passing on the baby." When anything came up that you did not quite like or understand, you passed it on to another Department with a Minute, "Passed to you for your information, and, if necessary, action." This game was played in every staff from the humblest brigade to the divisional staff. There is a story that Sir Henry Wilson was given one of these notes, and he passed it on to Sir William Robertson with a Minute on it, "Waltz me round again, Willy; don't let my feet touch the ground." That is the game; that is played. It is due to the fact that there is inevitably a certain amount of overlapping between various branches of the staff, between G and A and between A and Q, and the more overlapping there was the more the game was played, and it could not be helped.

I put it to the hon. Gentleman who will reply whether he is satisfied that there is not considerable overlapping in Government Departments at present. He himself—no one adorns his position with greater success—was Secretary of the Department of Overseas Trade. He will be able to tell us better than anyone whether the work done by that very efficient Department was not hampered by the fact that they were overlapping with the Foreign Office, especially the Consular Department, the Colonial Office, the Dominions Office and the Board of Trade. The Ministry of Transport is another example. London traffic is a question that has been under consideration for a number of years, but I do not know when anything will be done, owing to the fact that there is so much overlapping between the Ministry of Transport, the London Traffic Advisory Committee, the London County Council and the Home Office, who finally administer and run and regulate the traffic. I believe a great deal of simplification and reorganisation can be done in the whole administration of the country. When the Prime Minister last Session announced that the three Ministries were not going to be absorbed,, as I understood it he gave some forecast of the general reorganisation of the administration of the country, but he said no such reorganisation could be undertaken without preliminary legislation, and the reason for this Debate to-night is that we should like an assurance from the Government that if such reorganisation, amalgamation of Departments, simplification in order to produce more efficiency and more economical working is to be produced, whatever legislation is necessary shall be introduced in this Session or next, but at any rate during the life of the present Government. It is only thus that we can be certain of the confidence of the country in the Government, and perhaps, as the result of that, we may see the Government returned to power again with a working majority, a. smaller Cabinet, and a reduced, simpler and more efficient, and therefore more contented, civil administration.

The word "parsimony" has been freely bandied about in this Debate, and it might lead the public outside to think that some people in the House allow Government Departments to go on spending money without due regard to economy. I assert here and now, without fear of contradiction, that there is extravagance in Government Departments, and it is the duty of the House to find out where those extravagances are. I am not saying that by any means to side with those who, I have a shrewd suspicion, are, in the words of my hon. Friend the Member for West Leicester (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence) attacking what they call extravagance in Government Departments, really having as an object the cutting down of public services. This House is not acquainted with all the expenditure that goes on in Government Departments in the way that it ought to be. It is true that of late when Supplementary Estimates are brought in an attempt has been made to give a detailed statement as to what the money is being asked for. But almost every Member, when his Government asks for a Supplementary Estimate, thinks it his duty to support the Vote without knowing anything what the money is being asked for, how it is being expended, or what is the necessity for an increased Estimate. Over and above that, without wishing to appear to preach to the House, I want to say this. Really, one cannot come down to this House at this hour of night and by a mere challenge in the form of some Amendment to an Address of this kind hope to circumvent this topic of economy in public Administration. I would rather drive it home to Members of the House, if I could, that when they are blindly supporting very stupid policies they do not seem to realise that in voting in blind loyalty to their party they may implicate the Government they support in very heavy expenditure.

If we were in earnest about economising, we should not be coming here and asking for a very small reduction in various revenue departments or for a reduction of the Income Tax by sixpence, though I do not see why this should not be done if it can be done. I would not object to it, though it does not trouble me very much. I do not see why that should cause hon. Members to smile. But are we really serious about economy? When you read the columns of the Press outside you find that there is, apparently, a little coterie in the House of Commons who, at morning, noon and night, think of nothing but economy and cutting down the expenses of the administration of the country, and that this determined little group have made the life of the Prime Minister not altogether enjoyable. One would think, in reading the" Times" some mornings, that the Prime Minister was likely to fall to the machinations of this small and determined group if they are as determined as they say they are. I wonder if it has occurred to these champions of economy whether the spending of millions per annum in the form of health administration is utterly futile. We take children out of slum areas, we treat them in public sanatoria, and we treat men and women in the same way. We restore them to health and then send them back again to the slums from whence they came and to the old state in which they were before they came to the public institutions. We are spending millions of pounds in attacking these diseases. If hon. Members opposite were so enthusiastic in the cause of economy, why did they not insist on cutting out the causes of these diseases which gave rise to this enormous expenditure? But no; oh, no! I never listen to some of the speeches in this House on these great preventible diseases and to the way in which Members of the House are very anxious to spend so much money on public administration but I think of this story of the man who had a vision. He saw people being carried down the middle of the stream and many good people on the embankment devising schemes to pull them out, but it never seemed to appear to any of them that they might have gone further up the stream to see who pushed them in. So it is In the House of Commons. We have the Conservative party and the Liberal party, and, of course, we have the Labour party. One watches this thing and sees that modern politics is developing more or less into a competition between the respective parties in order to see which can be most kindly bureaucratic towards those struggling with disease outside. The true economist is not the man who comes in at this hour of night with a pious Amendment like this. One Member truly said that we are the most heavily taxed country in the world. It is a menace, but the small adjustment advanced to-night is not likely to be of much use. I do not think that anything that is said to-night would give me the optimism which the hon. Member seems to feel. As one Member on the other side of the House truly said, it is not only taxation which is a menace, bad as it is; it is local rating which is a menace.

I have heard much criticism about the Gracious Speech this year. I have heard it even said at that Box on this side of the House that it was the most insignificant Speech that has been delivered. I want to congratulate the Prime Minister on that Speech. I want to say to the Prime Minister and to the Government that it is the most significant King's Speech that I remember, because in it there is at last the recognition of the fact that local rates are becoming a danger and threatening the prosperity of this country. Of course, I am very anxious to know what is up the sleeve of the Prime Minister. One Member has had the temerity to suggest that possibly the prospective policy of the Government is large subventions from the State to distressed farmers. I hope that that is not so. I hope that they will not pursue a blind and stupid policy of that kind. It will be of deep interest to those of us who are watching this question of rates to watch what will be the advice, not so much perhaps of the Prime Minister, but of the resourceful Chancellor of the Exchequer. When one looks at the statistics of the country and sees such rates as these—Merthyr Tydvil, 30s. 7½d. in the £, Gateshead, 22s. 3d. in the £, Abertillery, 26s. 4d. in the £, Aberdare, 3Os. in the £, and my own division in the Potteries, Stoke-on-Trent,20s. in the £—one realises that they are more intimidating menaces to industry than anything, so far as taxation is concerned.

I would say to those who are very anxious about economy that they should keep before their minds the word "economy." Members go into the Lobby and vote for most profligate expenditure. I will mention one or twoitems. The expenditure incurred, for instance, in the beet-sugar subsidy, which is one of the most ghastly pieces of pocket-picking which the taxpayer of this country has ever experienced. [An HON. MEMBER: "Whose fault?"] Whose fault? The Government opposite started it. [An HON. MEMBER:"NO!"] I know it is quite true to say that the suggestion was thrown out by the Labour party. But I am not going to stand in this House, enjoying as I do, the freedom of free expression, and say that because the Labour party were stupid enough to put forward a suggestion of that kind that it was a good suggestion. If I had been in the House at the time and behind the Labour party, they would have had the hottest quarter of an hour that they had ever had in their life about it. But I notice this, that although they made the suggestion, they did not carry it out. I do not blame the Prime Minister directly, I blame those who got behind him and who got behind the Labour party, Mr. Van Rossum and the other patriotic gentlemen. For 10 years the subsidy will run to something like £20,000,000, and that money will be handed over to an industry which could almost give the sugar away for nothing and have a profit out of the subsidy which it receives from the Government.

Then we have the Empire Marketing Board. I was astonished at Question Time to hear that two-thirds of the money is being expended on advertising, bill posting, putting posters up back streets, and very nice posters some of them! I was going through my constituency the other day and I went down a rather murky street and saw a rather elaborate hoarding on which was a beautiful poster showing the portraits of the statesmen of the British Empire, and that in a street where the people are all wondering where the money is to come from to pay their rates and taxes. I was looking at the poster, when along came one of my constituents and he asked" What do you think of it?" I said, "What do you think of it?" He said," I bring apples from a neighbouring district and sell them in the Tunstall Market. Money is being taken out of my pocket as a taxpayer for these fancy hoardings and posters telling people not to buy my apples but to buy Empire apples."

If my hon. and gallant Friend does not see the point, no amount of argument from me will make him see it. I am sure of this that if he were bringing those apples into Tunstall Market and he saw posters advising people to buy Australian apples he would not be so dense as he appears to be. These things are costing enormous sums of money, the sugar beet industry and the Empire Marketing. I was talking to a Frenchman the other day about sugar beet, and he said: "My opinion is that if you rolled up any fraud in the Union Jack, John Bull would swallow it."

If you want real economies there is much work to be done in this House. Allegiance to party would not bind me down or make me support any venture carried out by the State, if, in my opinion, such a venture or such an expenditure of public money would not fructify or be of benefit to the nation as a whole. There are many of us on these benches who know these things, and when certain adventures are not as they might be, we walk into the opposite lobby. If the Government are really serious about this policy in regard to rates, and they are going to do something startling, which I hope they are, the time will come when rates will be moved off industry and industry given a start and a step forward, and the national taxation of this country will be levied upon a different basis than that of trying to keep the discontent of the unemployed man from bursting into revolution. These things we can cure by giving industry an impetus, by removing local taxation levied upon it, rather than niggling at national taxation along the lines laid down tonight. I am not saying this to irritate the two hon. Members who moved and seconded the Amendment. I believe they are quite honest and that they mean well, but they are not comprehensive enough and their vision is not big enough although their desires may be quite good.

10.0 p.m.

My hon. Friend who seconded the Amendment and other hon. Members who have spoken have said that the policy of economy was popular. I am afraid that I entirely dissent. I am not under any such delusion. In any political society in which the direct taxation is paid by a very small proportion of the electorate, surely it is obvious that expenditure and not economy is the popular cry and that must be so until it brings its own remedy. The mass of mankind will learn by experience and not theory. Unless the economists are wrong and unless our own experience in our private affairs is entirely misleading it is surely true that it is strict economy in our national affairs which can really give this country prosperity and put us back upon the true road to better times and more employment. Unless we can put economy into practice and show that in practice it works and will produce good results, I do not think we shall succeed in converting the mass of the nation to that policy. I am convinced that if when the Chancellor of the Exchequer first assumed office he had started a policy of drastic economy in public expenditure we should be seeing the results of it to-day in a greater improvement of trade and industry than we have, and in employment. The results of that I believe would have won many people from that fatal delusion that it is the business of Governments to redistribute wealth instead of facilitating its production.

These are only general considerations, but I believe them to be profoundly true, and I am now going to give two or three definite reasons why at this moment I believe it to be essential that we should urge upon the Government to effect every possible economy in our national affairs. First of all, this country needs a great deal of industrial reorganisation. Owing to the application of science to industry, a great deal of capital is required if plants are to be reconstructed and new methods of industry are to be applied and employment is to be given and foreign competi- tion met. All that means capital. What is capital? Capital is simply the savings of the individual members of the community, and the more of those savings there are the cheaper will that capital be obtained. Just at this time when industry is going through necessary reconstruction, it is above all things essential that capital savings should be abundant and cheap.

Secondly, about the only real relief which the taxpayer can expect is from a reduction of our National Debt. Surely, it must be obvious that when a man is considering how he shall invest his money what he looks at is not the gross return but the net return after the deduction of Income Tax, and I am perfectly certain that no large funding operation can be carried out by the Chancellor of the Exchequer until a. considerable reduction of taxation has increased the net return from investments. That is what stands in his way. Further, there is the question of the interest on the Floating Debt. As long as the rate of interest, the money rate, remains as high as it is the Government will have to pay a high rate of interest on the Floating Debt. With regard to the present rates of interest, I happened to be looking into the balance sheet of an insurance company in this country and I found that, investing as an insurance company does with the utmost caution, as indeed they are compelled to do—and this company is one of the most cautious—they were able to get a gross return on their investments of £5 9s. per cent. I mention that to-day to show that money rates to-day are far too high. What we want to do is to try and get the money rate reduced if we are to have any relief in taxation. The first thing for the Government to do is by every possible economy to try and rediuce the burden of taxation.

There is another reason why I believe economy to be essential. I believe that the evolution of the capitalist system of society under which we live now has made great headway in the United States of America towards what I may call a co-operative commonwealth; by thrift and by making use of the joint stock company principle the employés in an industry become shareholders in the various undertakings which supply their wants and needs. In that way you will get rid of the distinction between the producer and the consumer; the distinction between capital and labour. That I believe to be the evolution of the capitalist system, and if that is to be encouraged, and I believe the Government should do everything they can, surely one of the things which will induce the ordinary citizen to invest his money in the way I have described will be by reducing taxation, by reducing the cost of living and leaving the money to fructify in the pockets of the people. Those are three reasons why I believe economy at the present moment is essential and vital to the needs of the country and the tendency of the times.

One other matter before I sit down. It is this. According to official figures which were presented to Parliament last April under 90,000 people in the United Kingdom are liable to Super-tax, which begins at £2,000. I simply do not believe it. You have only to walk round the West End of London, or any of the suburbs and residential quarters of our great cities, or in towns like Bournemouth, and one cannot believe that there are only 90,000 people in this country who have incomes over £2,000 a year— and it includes Scotland and Northern Ireland. It is very difficult to believe that this is so, and if I am right then there is a great deal of evasion of taxation, not necessarily illegal evasion. On the whole, it is true to say that the Englishman is one of the bast taxpayers in the world. It is his usual practice to pay up, but taxation in this country has reached the point when a great many people think it is almost confiscation; and evasion of taxation is very difficult to stop. As the hope of any sensible relief from the burden of taxation feecomes more remote I fear that the ingenuity of accountants and lawyers will become greater and the demand for their services will increase.

I pray the Chancellor of the Exchequer to take into consideration what I may call the psychology of the taxpayer a little more. One of the mistakes made in the King's Speech is that this question of the psychology of the taxpayer is neglected. It may be said that, politically, I speak for a very small class— I speak only for the direct taxpayer. I have two answers to that. The first is this, that although it is a small class it is a class which no Government that is wise can afford to ignore, because, occupying the place it does in our social system, it contains those who have proved the possession of certain qualities which are essential to the progress and stability of the State and, therefore, demand consideration. Secondly, if this great experiment in democracy is not to end in economic disaster, some party must have the courage to face the facts and act upon them, and I still hope that it may be the party to which I have the honour to belong. Therefore, I beg to support the Amendment.

The House at the beginning of almost every Session discusses the question of economy, and the Debate we have had to-night illustrates the broad distinction, that on the one hand there are smaller suggestions which can be offered and, on the other wide propositions of large policy without which any true economy in expenditure in this country is impossible. There is only time to-night, in view of the fact that time must be left for the Financial Secretary of the Treasury to reply, to note one or two considerations which emerge from the review of national expenditure undertaken by representative Committees of this House. The broad facts are that since the Government took office in 1924 national expenditure has increased by something between £30,000,000 and £40,000,000; in other words it has risen from £780,000,000 or £790,000,000 to a sum of between £835,000,000 and £840,000,000. There is a considerable school of thought which suggests that in existing circumstances in Great Britain national expenditure is tending to settle down at that figure. Many people would be inclined to agree that in the absence of some large departure in policy, in armaments, or debt, or social services, there is very little prospect of a drastic reduction in that aggregate, unless, of course, the level of prices comes to some extent to the rescue. All the indications are that prices will not fall to any appreciable degree, and, as the Government is always in the market as a large purchaser, we are thrown back on wide questions of policy and on these questions of detail.

Before we settle down to regard this as a very grave burden, there are one or two points that we must keep clearly in mind. The hon. Member for Stockport (Mr. Hammersley) directed attention to the form of our national accounts, and he made it perfectly plain that, as they are presented now, they indicate a kind of total load, resting upon industry and commerce in this country of, say, £830,000,000 or £840,000,000. But he went on to indicate what is really the underlying consideration, the importance of trying to present these accounts in such a way as to take out the remunerative work, the self-supporting services of the State; and I would go beyond his argument and suggest also the importance of trying to distinguish more and more between exhaustive expenditure, as we understand it, and mere transfer expenditure.

One hesitates to quote the economists in this House, which is understood to be given up to the hard facts of the situation, but the distinguished Professor of Political Economy at Cambridge has just issued a new "Study in Public Finance," in which, in the introductory chapters, a clear distinction is drawn between exhaustive and transfer expenditure, a distinction which is of vital importance to this House in trying to ascertain the real burden which has settled upon our industry and commerce. In all studies of the public burden we are constantly keeping in mind the comparative position of Great Britain, side by side with other great industrial countries of the world, and seeking to ascertain how far we are at a disadvantage compared with those countries, and how far unfairly we are carrying a large part of the post-War burden. I was specially grateful to the hon. Member for Stock-port for drawing a distinction of that kind, which more and more we should try to present in the form of our public accounts.

Let us turn to the broad and simple facts of the situation. One of the hon. Members who opened this Debate fastened, as many people do, upon the personnel of the public departments. This has been analysed over and over again by the Public Accounts Committee, by the Estimates Committee, and by other bodies inside and outside this House. Even if you make the largest concession to economies in the personnel of the Departments, they touch only an infmitesi- mal corner of about £840,000,000 of national expenditure—quite interesting in its way, but not stating the case in anything resembling proportion. The simple facts are that we have to find now £360,000,000 every year in the service of the Debt, about £120,000,000 in armaments, and about £240,000,000 in the social services.

When we have added those items together we have covered practically the whole of the field which is not in the remunerative or productive Departments, if I may so describe the Post Office and some others. Let us apply our minds to one or two important considerations under these heads. Hon. Members opposite have a certain policy in regard to debt; it is only when we come to policy that we can tackle expenditure on a large scale at all. They are relying upon an improvement in public credit. They hope that that improvement will enable them, in due course, to convert on easier terms. We on this side of the House do not see any immediate prospect along that line. The last conversion scheme added materially to the burden of this country. Heavy maturities are lying ahead, and there does not seem to be any chance at all of an effective reduction of that £360,000,000 or £370,000,000 unless men and women are prepared for some drastic steps, such as calling upon contributions where contributions are undoubtedly available. The hon. and gallant Member who has just addressed the House finds it difficult to believe that there is only a certain number of people with incomes exceeding £2,000 per annum, and he himself referred to the danger of evasion in the payment of taxation in this country. On that point the Royal Commission on the Income Tax in 1919 pointed to at least £5,000,000 to £10,000,000, at a very low estimate, which is being lost annually because certain steps are not taken to deal with evasion; and everybody knows that when taxation is heavy the tendency to evade is greatly increased. There is one sphere in which, with all the material of the Colwyn Committee at our disposal, many of us suggest something might be done. We have made up our minds that what is at the moment a static element in the Budget, or worse than a static element, one which is tending rather against us should in any true economy in this country be foremost, otherwise we are not standing up to our financial obligations.

Let us take another illustration. Hon. Members have referred to the expenditure of £117,000,000 to £130,000,000 on armaments. There again we can only effect a drastic reduction when there is a change in policy in co-operation with other nations of the world and with all the leadership that we on our side can give, leading to the reduction of these forces and of the expenditure involved. That is a large side of the question, but, to take the immediate and practical side, I daresay there are certain members of the Estimates Committee and the Public Accounts Committee who will agree that there is room,, within £120,000,000 of expenditure on these Services, for very considerable economy. Stating the case quite impartially, I do not think you will lose any efficiency in the process. Let us go a little into details. Some years ago the Mond-Weir Committee reported on the co-ordination of certain services which were common to the three Departments. In what I have always regarded as a weak document they turned down every method proposed for arriving at some kind of common arrangement which would to some extent reduce expenditure.

That is one field which, for practical purposes, we are only beginning to investigate. We could do far more to extend co-ordination and united action in the field of contracts. The Contract Co-ordinating Committees, within limits, are doing useful work, though there are probably few Members of this House who do not know in their hearts that very much more might be done in that direction but for a certain Departmental jealousy, or a failure to work together, or a difficulty in doing what business houses would do. There is still another illustration in that field. It is true that the Public Accounts Committee recommended, a year or two ago, the abandonment of a certain method of cost accounting as applied to the Army, and many Members would say, "Was not that an entirely unbusinesslike recommendation?" On the facts before that Committee, it was nothing of the kind. A certain expenditure was imposed overhead in terms of broad policy or regu- lation, and when you lay down a system of that kind, you are only wasting money when you try to cost under what is regulated or controlled from the top. You do not get the conditions for an effective costing method} and that was the explanation why an apparently businesslike proposition was discontinued. But if you had an alteration of the policy at the top in those circumstances, I believe you could have a very efficient costing method within the defence forces at the present day. That costing method has been retained for enterprises in the three Services which you can rightly regard as analogous to ordinary commercial propositions, and it might be extended beyond that with quite valuable results. Thus, when we come to analyse expenditure in great blocks of £120,000,000, we are thrown back, not merely on the large question of policy, but upon a variety, and a large variety, of practical, concrete proposals which I believe, in existing conditions; the Treasury and the other Departments should summarise and try to ascertain how far they could be applied.

Now I will pass to the block of expenditure of about £240,000,000 on the social services. Certain newspapers keep referring to these as Civil Services, and there is a quite considerable section of the electorate in this country which believes that they are actually paying this money to the civil servants themselves. What is the record of the Government in this matter? A large number of Members are now realising the onerous character of local rates. It is an elementary economic truth that they bear more heavily on industry than national taxation, which over an appreciable part of the field is paid out of the profit which has been earned, the local rates falling upon the business or undertaking whether or not there is any profit. Very well; that is the recognition of the Government in the beginning of 1928, but when you add up certain policies, in National Health Insurance, in the Road Fund, in certain schemes of education, and in the proposal some time ago to ration these Departments, you have a tendency which has been making for an addition to local rates on this country, and you have so amended your Unemployment Insurance Acts as to cast, beyond all doubt, a very large increase upon the local authorities in Poor Law relief. That policy has been criticised over and over again from this side of the House of Commons, and it is only now, in what is probably the last year of this Administration—a prospect giving great joy to all well-meaning people—that a proposal is introduced or suggested for the relief of local rates.

I do not want to pass from that to-night in the mere hope that the Government will disappear. We must try to make a concrete suggestion. In this matter there is a wealth of material at the disposal of the Government if they will only use it. We are not in favour of rationing these social services, if by that you mean that you are going to add to the burdens of the local authorities. There is no economy in that. But there was a Departmental Committee in 1914 which reviewed the relationship of national to local finance in Great Britain and made a series of important recommendations. These recommendations were in process of being embodied in legislative form when the European War broke out, but some of us who have had occasion to read them can say quite clearly that with suitable changes they are applicable in many cases to existing conditions, and the first step the Government should take is to dig up these recommendations and see how they can apply them at the present moment. Beyond that, in 1922 a committee was appointed under Lord Meston to consider the whole question of percentage grants in Great Britain. This is an expenditure which covers millions and millions in the £240,000,000 of the social services. We are not in favour of imposing greater burdens on. local authorities, but we want to see the very best return for the money which is expended. That is a very definite part of our policy. It is suggested that you do not get the best return at the moment. In that field also you have ample opportunity for comparing costs of area with area for the purpose of finding out whether you are getting the best return, and whether the money is being wasted; and I suggest that if that policy were faithfully applied, you could, over a term of years, save millions of money and provide a better service in the process. I believe that both these proposals are practicable under existing conditions.

One dare not go into greater detail because the hour is late. But there are the three wide fields of national expenditure which constitute the overwhelming part of the Budget of £830,000,000. Let me conclude with a word or two about the machinery for the control of expenditure by the House of Commons. Let us be perfectly frank. I make no claim of special experience, but I have seen nine years of it in active operation and certain plain facts stand out. We have a Debate like we have to-night. We have the Budget speech, and the Budget proposals, and the Estimates. It is common ground that a very large part of the Budget Debates do not touch actual expenditure at all. It i£common ground that many of the Debates on Estimates never refer to the amounts which are directly before the House. And millions and millions of money are under the Guillotine voted without a word of discussion. We do not seem to be able to find a remedy for that disease. We must make far better use of the existing Supply days and of the Budget and Estimates Debates, but when all is said and done regarding the Floor of the House, it remains true that you are thrown back on the detailed investigation of the Estimates Committee on the one hand, and of the Public Accounts Committee on the other.

Your Estimates Committee, working with the best will in the world, and with, I understand, a sub-division of its forces, in existing conditions can cover the field only once in eight years. The review of the Public Accounts Committee is, I cannot help thinking, about the most effective review we have in existing conditions, because it makes an attempt to see the whole of the picture. And I want the House and the country to guard against the suggestion that it is purely post mortem, for we are always asking the witnesses in the box, "What are you doing now?" and the Public Accounts Committee sometimes hails a Minister and cross-examines him. That Committee is to some extent invading the field of policy, but in a perfectly reasonable and healthy way. All that machinery is available in existing conditions, but some of us have been impressed by the fact that, in spite of all we do at present, there is a very considerable national waste of the essentials to our economic recovery in the narrow field of finance and in industry and com- merce at large. What do I mean by that?

Each year in Great Britain important Committees present valuable Reports to the House of Commons. At the moment industry is struggling for some reconstruction of taxation in the interests of trade revival. The Report of the Royal Commission on Income Tax in 1919 laid down a policy—that was nine years ago—regarding wasting assets and the treatment of industries in which wasting assets are important. No efforts have been made to deal with that and innumerable other points. The Balfour Committee have presented three Reports crowded with practical suggestions, which were published and almost immediately forgotten. We have had Reports on most of the leading industries in Great Britain. They have been read and discussed in this House, and their practical recommendations have disappeared. If that waste is to be stopped, we must have some machinery for dealing with this question. We should set aside as a business proposition two or three or five of our Members in this House who, to the exclusion of other duties less important, would make it their business, with competent assistance, to go through those papers and summarise the practical proposals and present them to the Government—not to take away the responsibility of the Government, but merely to do their best to keep before industry and commerce in Great Britain schemes which they regard as practicable and sensible. These schemes would divide themselves into two classes. There is one class admittedly controversial; there is another class which to impartial minds of all parties would permit of no controversy whatever. We might at least get the non-controversial class applied. At the moment we are losing practically all that valuable material, for which we pay so much and which is so essential to the reconstruction and organisation of industry.

None of us want to belittle Great Britain as compared with other countries. That is no part of our case. Our industry and commerce survived a remarkable strain during the War, standing up to a debt of £8,000,000,000 in a way that few people believed would be possible.

Industry bent, but did not break. In the United States of America and in Germany they are analysing these conditions in some respects more faithfully than we do in Great Britain, and American legislation is acting and reacting upon them. We shouldered many of the burdens of the War, and if it is true that American and German competition is, for a variety of reasons, going to be keener, it is vital that we should undertake this task in the sphere of national economy not only as a duty to Great Britain at large but particularly to the one million of our fellow men searching the market place for honest and reasonable employment.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer has asked me to express his regret that for private reasons he cannot be present. The Government cannot, of course, accept the Amendment to the Address, but none the less we welcome the spirit behind its wording, for we find it helpful and in accord with the policy, wish and intention of the Government. As a member in the past of the Estimates Committee, the Committee on National Expenditure and the Public Accounts Committee, I am in sympathy with what has been said by the Mover and Seconder of this Amendment, and had I been a private Member would probably have taken the line they have taken. On this subject we welcome criticism from friend or opponent, and whether it is fair or unfair, because it helps the Government to impress on all concerned the wishes and intentions of the House of Commons in the direction of reducing expenditure wherever possible. But economy has few friends. I am sure we are all very much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Central Edinburgh (Mr. W. Graham) for his very-interesting and helpful speech. What the right hon. Gentleman has said in that speech is far too important for me to deal with in the few minutes which are left for me to speak. But I shall study it carefully in print to-morrow. I am afraid that when one talks of economy, it does not find many friends amongst the Opposition. The policy of the most vocal of the Labour party talks of from £80,000,000 to £100,000,000 in extra taxation to be expended on visionary schemes of Socialistic experiments. As for the Liberal party, I do not think that we can look in that direction for any reduction of national expenditure. I was very much interested in reading just before Christmas an article in the" Nation," which is, I think, by Mr. Keynes, and this is what is said:

"The public discernment is certainly imperfect, but it is not So completely nonexistent as politicians sometimes seem to assume, and we do not think it likely that many people will be deceived by the suggestion that a Liberal Administration would cut down the total national expenditure more than a Conservative Administration would do. Those who seek to foster this impression are speedily compelled to disclaim any idea of curtailing the social services, of restricting the development of public health and education, or even of retrenching on productive expenditure like that of the Road Fund. On such matters Liberals cannot possibly claim to be more 'economical' than the Conservatives; do they not boast, with good reason, of their magnificent record of constructive (but expensive) social work in the pre-War decade?"

Mr. Keynes is a fair judge of an economic situation and a careful and learned critic. Hon. Members of both Opposition parties talk about economy at one time and disavow it at another; the Labour party want to raise £100,000,000 more by taxation and the Liberals admit they do not intend to be economical. Yet they will continue to abuse the Government for doing the same thing as they would do. And, moreover, those who framed the Report of the Liberal Industrial Inquiry proposed large capital expenditure of public money and large transfers from local rates to the Imperial Exchequer. This supports the views set forth in the" Nation." We have been told to-night by the right hon. and gallant Member for Burton (Colonel Gretton) and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Central Edinburgh that in the Budget of 1927 we were spending £35,000,000 more than we were spending in 1924. The estimate of expenditure for 1927 of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer was £833,000,000, an increase, apparently, of £34,000,000 as compared with the estimate of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden). But it is not an increase really. I will explain how this difference of £34,000,000 is produced. £30,000,000 of it is accounted for by our Chancellor of the Exchequer giving £20,000,000 more for Sinking Fund for 1927 than in 1924. That is an asset by which money is saved; it is not an expenditure in the true sense. Another £12,000,000 is accounted for by increases in the case of the two self-supporting Services, namely, the Post Office and the Road Fund, and £3,000,000 is in respect of teachers' pensions and accounting adjustments. That accounts for £35,000,000. It is not increased expenditure at all, and should not be used as an argument to show that there is an increase of expenditure in the Budget of 1927 as compared with the Budget of 1924.

I will deal with that. There have been, as the hon. Member says, certain automatic decreases, but there have also been automatic increases arising from laws and policies accepted by this House, and by former Parliaments and' Governments. In our own case, we have widows' and orphans' pensions, and also, notwithstanding what was said by the hon. Member for Burslem (Mr. MacLaren), the Beet Sugar Subsidy, to which I have heard the Labour Chancellor of the Exchequer say he would give his hearty support. The hon. Member for Leith (Mr. E. Brown) asks what has become of the automatic decrease. It has been absorbed in satisfying the automatic increases of payment under earlier Acts, and in the giving of widows' and orphans' pensions and1 the Beet Sugar Subsidy, for which we have been able to pay by reason of these automatic reductions, without their cost calling for increased taxation.

Considerable references have been, made to the staffs of the Civil Service, and I was very glad that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Central Edinburgh, as well as my hon. Friend the Member for Stockport (Mr. Hammersley), pointed out that the civil servants are supposed, quite wrongly, to be in receipt of £235,000,000 under the Civil Service Estimates. They receive £11,000,000 in the Revenue Departments and about £17,500,000 in the other Civil Departments. I should like to give the figures, to show what an immense reduction has been made in eight years in the numbers of the non-industrial staffs. At the Armistice, there were 418,000, In October, 1920, there were 366,000, and in October, 1927, 299,000; and, although the fall in these figures will not be so steep in future years, as time goes on they will be still further brought down, and we are taking steps to see that they shall be brought down in accordance with the wish of my right hon. Friend who moved this Amendment. I would point out, however, that, while these staffs numbered 299,000 in October of last year, we actually had 281,000 in the year before the War. Since that time—and I hope the House will allow me to press this point—we have set up a number of entirely new Services, namely, the Ministry of Pensions, the Air Ministry, the Forestry Commission, the Department of Overseas Trade, the National Savings Committee, the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, the State Management Districts, the Imperial War Graves Commission, and the Imperial War Museum. These purely new Services, since 1914, have involved an increase of nearly 13,000 in the non industrial staffs. Again, the Ministry of Labour has required a large increase, which is not fully detected in the total figures for staffs, because we have not a very large number more to-day than we had in 1914. We have the Ministry of Labour, with 14,000,000 subscribers for insurance, as against 2,000,000 before the War. This necessitates a staff. We must do the insurance work. There are 14,000,000 subscribers. There are 13,962 staff in the Ministry of Labour as against 4,700 before the War. That is a justifiable increase, and it should be remembered when the staffs total is examined. In Health Service before the War there were in the English department 2,975 and there are now 5,242. If work is to be done the House will agree we must have the staffs. In any case the total, always decreasing, is down by 100,000 in eight years. The pressure for economy which is implicit in this Amendment is one which is readily acceptable. Let it continue. We shall participate in it. We welcome it. It gives an opportunity for us to impress it on the various Departments as the House would wish and as it is our duty to do.

I have spoken a good deal about what has been done. Let me say a little about the 1927 accounts. I have no authority to say anything which might anticipate my right hon. Friend's Budget speech, but I think I can venture upon this expression of opinion. I think that the amount of money which was provided for in the Budget for expenditure on Supply Services will not be exceeded when the accounts come to be closed, notwithstanding the fact that we have had several Supplementary Estimates. We have had £900,000 for sugar beet and £3,000,000 for the Shanghai Defence Force. I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer will be able to show the House in proper course that he has made savings so that the Budget total for the Supply Services will not be exceeded, Supplementaries notwithstanding.

As to 1928 I cannot say much. The Estimates will be presented in due course, and I think they will show a result satisfactory to the House. I will say this, that the further we get away from frequent General Elections, the more opportunity we have for a rigid policy of cutting down. One hon. Gentleman opposite said that General Elections meant policies which cost money. The further, therefore, we get away from the platforms of General Elections the better chance the Treasury has to enforce economy and show that settled administration means stricter control of expenditure. An hon. Member asked why the Government had made no reference in the Gracious Speech to the word "economy." The House can rest assured that what has been uppermost in the minds of the Government is to cut expenditure down in the hope of getting down taxation. It would have been quite easy to put in some verbiage about economy, but the Government preferred to let the results of what we are doing be measured, not by words or promises, but by action, and I think when the House has seen the Estimates and the Budget for 1928 it will find that we have been justified in the course we have adopted. Our actions will be more effective than words would have been.

It is not possible to pursue the subject any further and I therefore beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

No!

Question put, "That those words be there added."

The House divided: Ayes, 84; Noes, 189.

Division No. 4. ]]

AYES.

[ 10.56 p.m.

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Hayes, John Henry

Rlley, Ben

Ammon, Charles George

Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)

Ritson, J.

Apsley, Lord

Hirst, G. H.

Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich)

Baker, Walter

Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

Robinson, W.C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

Batey, Joseph

Hurd, Percy A.

Scurr, John

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Sexton, James

Bromfield, William

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Bromley, J.

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Sitch, Charles H.

Brown, Ernest (Leith)

Jones, J. J. (West Him, Silvertown)

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhlthe)

Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Snell, Harry

Clowes, S.

Kelly, W. T.

Strauss, E. A.

Connolly, M.

Kennedy, T.

Sutton, J. E.

Crawfurd, H. E.

Lansbury, George

Townend, A. E.

Dalton, Hugh

Lee, F.

Varley, Frank B.

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Lindley, F. W.

Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

Davies, Dr. Vernon

Lowth, T.

Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

Day, Colonel Harry

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermilne)

Edge. Sir William

Mackinder, W.

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Fenby, T. D.

MacLaren, Andrew

Wellock, Wilfred

Gibbins, Joseph

Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

Westwood, J.

Gillett, George M.

Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

Whiteley, W.

Gosling, Harry

Murnin H.

Wiggins, William Martin

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Naylor, T. E

Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

Grundy, T. W.

Nelson, Sir Frank

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Palin, John Henry

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll)

Paling, W.

Windsor, Walter

Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

Parkinson. John Allen (Wigan)

Hardie, George D.

Potts, John S.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy and Mr.Tinker.—Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy and Mr.Tinker.

Hayday, Arthur

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

NOES.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut. -Colonel

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

Dalkelth, Earl of

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney. N.)

Albery, Irving James

Davidson, Rt. Hon. J.(Hertford)

Hume, Sir G. H.

Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

Davidson, Major-General Sir John H

Hunting field, Lord

Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset,Yeovil)

Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

Allen, J. Sandeman (L'poul, W. Derby)

Drewe, C.

Iveagh, Countess of

Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Jones, Sir G. W.H. (Stoke New'gton)

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

Ellis, R. G.

Kidd, J. (Linllthgow)

Atkinson, C.

Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

King, Commodore Henry Douglas

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Everard, W. Lindsay

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Banks, Reginald Mitchell

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

Lamb, J. O.

Barclay- Harvey, C. M.

Fanshawe, Captain G. D.

Little, Dr. E. Graham

Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

Fraser, Captain Ian

Locker- Lampson, Com.O. (Handsw'th)

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Fremantle, Lieut. -Colonel Francis E.

Lougher, Lewis

Birchall, Major J. Dearman

Galbraith, J. F. W.

Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

Blundell, F. N.

Ganzonl, Sir John

Lumley, L. R.

Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W

Gates, Percy

Mac Andrew, Major Charles Glen

Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B.

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

Brass, Captain W.

Goff, Sir Park

Macintyre, Ian

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Gower, Sir Robert

McLean, Major A.

Briscoe, Richard George

Grace, John

Macmillan, Captain H.

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

Brooke, Brigadier-General C.R. l

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Macquisten, F. A.

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C. (Berks, Newb'y)

Grotrian, H. Brent

Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham)

Buchan, John

Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

Buckingham, Sir H.

Gunston, Captain D. W.

Meller, R. J.

Burgoyne, Lieut. -Colonel Sir Alan

Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

Merriman, F. B.

Burman, J. B.

Hammersley, S. S.

Mline, J. S. Wardlaw-

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Harland, A.

Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

Campbell, E. T.

Harrison, G. J. C.

Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

Carver, Major W. H.

Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

Haslam. Henry C.

Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

Christie, J. A.

Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

Moore, Sir Newton J.

Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd, Henley)

Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

Clayton, G. C.

Henderson, Lt.-Col. Sir V. L. (Bootle)

Murchison, Sir Kenneth

Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George

Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Cooper, A. Duff

Henn, Sir Sydney H.

Oakley, T.

Cope, Major William

Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

Hills, Major John Waller

Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

Penny, Frederick George

Crookshank,Cpt.H.(Lindsey,Gainsbro)

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

Holt, Capt. H. P.

Perring, Sir William George

Cunliffe, Sir Herbert

Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

Philipson, Mabel

Skelton, A. N.

Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

Power, Sir John Cecil

Slaney, Major P. Kenyon

Waterhouse, Captain Charles

Pownall, Sir Assheton

Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kine'dine.C.)

Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

Price, Major C. W. M.

Smithers, Waldron

Watts, Dr. T.

Raine, Sir Walter

Sprot, Sir Alexander

Wells, S. R.

Ramsden, E.

Stanley, Lieut-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.

Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

Rawson, Sir Cooper

Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

Williams, Herbert G. Reading)

Rentoul, G. S.

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Wilson, R. R.(Stafford, Lichfield)

Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

Storry- Deans, R.

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

Styles, Captain H. Walter

Winterton. Rt. Hon. Earl

Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

Templeton, W. P.

Withers, John James

Ropner, Major L.

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Womersley, W. J.

Ruggles-Brise, Lieut. -Colonel E. A.

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

Salmon, Major I.

Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

Wood, E.(Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Tinne, J. A.

Wood, Rt. Hon.Sir Kingsley

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

Sandeman, N. Stewart

Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

Wragg, Herbert

Savery, S. S.

Waddington, R.

Shepperson, E. W.

Wallace, Captain D. E.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —Captain Margesson and Sir Victor Warrender.—Captain Margesson and Sir Victor Warrender.

Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belf'st.)

Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

Main Question again proposed.

It being after Eleven of the Clock, the Debate stood adjourned.

Debate to be resumed To-morrow.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

Adjournment

Resolved," That this House do adjourn."—[ Sir G. Hennessy. ]

Adjourned accordingly at Five Minutes after Eleven O'clock.