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Commons Chamber

Volume 213: debated on Tuesday 14 February 1928

House of Commons

Tuesday, February 14, 1928

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

Committee of Selection

Sir Rowland Blades, Mr. Charles Edwards, Sir Leolin Forestier-Walker, Colonel Gretton, Mr. Frederick Hall, Mr. Thomas Henderson, Mr. William Nicholson, Major Owen, Sir John Pennefather, Mr. David Reid, and Sir Murrough Wilson nominated Members of the Committee of Selection.—[ Major Sir George Hennessy. ]

Supreme Court (Prize, Etc.) Deposit Account, 1926–27

Account ordered, "of the Receipts and Payments of the Accounting Officer of the Vote for the Supreme Court on behalf of the Admiralty Division in Prize for the year ended the 31st day of March, 1927, and for the period 4th day of August, 1914, to 31st day of March, 1927, together with Copy of the Correspondence with the Comptroller and Auditor-General thereon."—[ Mr. Arthur Michael Samuel. ]

Oral Answers to Questions

Trade and Commerce

Retail Business

1 and 2.

asked the President of the Board of Trade (1) the total cash value of the retail business of the country in foodstuffs for 1926 and 1927;

(2) the total cash value of the retail business of the country during 1926–27?

As no returns of turnover in retails trade are obtaained by my Department, I am not in a position to furnish the information desired by the hon. Member.

Would it not be advisable for the Board of Trade to consider having as good information in regard to this matter as they have in regard to production?

Yes, I will consider it, but legislation would be required similar to that governing the census of production in order to obtain such information.

When the right hon. Gentleman wants information on this subject, what does he do about it?

When I want information, I go to the quarter from which I think I can get it.

That varies with the character of the information I desire to obtain.

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind the cost of setting up these boards and other bodies?

Film Industry

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is now in a position to state the constitution of the Advisory Committee to be set up under the Cinematograph Films Act, 1927, giving particulars in each case as to which section of the trade these gentlemen represent?

The information desired by the hon. Member was published in the Press on 11th January. I am sending him a copy of the announcement.

Is it not the fact that members of that Committee, as far as the exhibitors are concerned, all belong to the Cinema Exhibitors' Association?

They were selected from names put forward by the Association, and I understand the Association took a plebiscite of the employers in order to ascertain whom they most desired to represent them.

Is it not a fact that the Cinema Exhibitors' Association, which supported the Government's Measure, has all the representation on the Committee, and that the cinema exhibitors' organisation in Manchester and elsewhere which did not support the Government Measure, has received no representation?

No, Sir. That would be a completely erroneous way of putting the case. There are in the trade union—if I may so put it—which represents the exhibitors, the great bulk of the exhibitors, some who supported the Measure and some who opposed it. It was that body, in that representative capacity, which I approached in order to ascertain whom they would suggest to represent the trade.

Is it not a fact that the Provincial Entertainment Proprietors' and Managers' Association, which controls £28,000,000 worth of invested capital in cinemas, has not been asked to nominate or suggest one member?

That organisation is primarily concerned with quite another type of undertaking, namely, music-halls and other places of entertainment of that kind. Moreover, as the hon. Gentleman will remember, the type of entertainment they give is to show a short film occasionally as part of a programme, and that is expressly excluded from the Act.

May I press this point on the right hon. Gentleman? Is it not a fact that this association controls some of the most important cinemas in the country?

We are accustomed to a position in which there may be a small minority in some other organisation, but I have never yet heard it suggested from those Benches that when there is one large organisation covering the bulk of the workers in any industry, that is not the organisation to be consulted.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can furnish any information as to the number of British feature films that were made in 1927, and if he has any information which will show the number that were made with the assistance of either the War Office, the Admiralty, or the Air Council; and how many of these are long films as defined in the Cinematograph Films Bill?

I have not exact information as to the numbers of British feature films actually made in 1927, but the number trade shown in that year, was, I am informed, 41. All these were long films as defined in the Act. As regards the second part of the question, I would ask the hon. Member to address his inquiries to the Departments he mentions.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has any further information of any legislation that has been introduced or passed in the Dominion Governments carrying out the resolution passed by the Imperial Conference of 1926, which called attention to the importance of an increasing proportion of Empire-produced films being exhibited throughout the Empire; and whether any negotiations have taken place between his Department and the various Dominion Governments calling attention to and giving full particulars of the provisions of the Cinematograph Films Act, 1927?

I have been asked to reply to the hon. and gallant Member's question. As regards the first part, I have no information additional to that given to him on the 13th December last by the President of the Board of Trade. As regards the second part, copies of the Cinematograph Films Act, 1927, have been communicated to the Dominion Governments, together with the Regulations dated 22nd December, 1927, issued under Section 29 and the explanatory memorandum which appeared in the Board of Trade Journal of 29th December.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether any negotiations have taken place between the Government and the Dominion Governments, with a view to enacting the same legislation in the Dominions as we have here?

No. These documents were only sent off in December and in some cases they can only just have reached the Dominion Governments, which would hardly give time for negotiations.

Had the right hon. Gentleman any conversation with the Ontario Government in regard to the use of tie State studio there for the production of films?

No, Sir.

(i)—PRODUCTION OF PIG-IRON.

[From information supplied by National Federation of Iron and Steel Manufacturers.]

Month.

1920.

1921.

1922.

1923.

1924.

1925.

1926.

1927.

Thousand tons.

January

665·0

642·1

288·0

567·9

636·6

574·5

533·5

434·6

February

645·0

463·6

300·1

543·4

612·7

541·9

502·0

571·1

March

699·0

386·0

389·8

633·6

668·6

607·9

568·5

671·8

April

671·0

60·3

394·3

652·2

618·4

569·8

539·1

680·0

May

738·0

13·6

407·9

714·2

650·9

574·7

88·8

720·1

June

726·0

0·8

369·2

692·9

607·8

510·3

41·8

651·3

July

750·6

10·2

399·1

655·1

615·6

492·7

17·9

645·8

August

752·4

94·2

411·7

599·8

588·9

444·5

13·6

596·1

September

741·0

158·3

430·3

558·6

569·2

448·7

12·5

591·5

October

533·2

235·5

481·5

595·7

586·4

473·7

13·1

596·3

November

403·2

271·8

493·9

598·2

583·5

494·1

12·7

575·9

December

682·5

275·0

533·7

626·9

580·3

503·4

98·0

559·1

(ii)—NUMBER OF BLAST FURNACES IN OPERATION (AT END OF MONTH).

[From information supplied by National Federation of Iron and Steel Manufacturers.]

Month.

1920.

1921.

1922.

1923.

1924.

1925.

1926.

1927.

January

272

242

90

183

190

172

144

152

February

279

193

101

189

202

165

146

166

March

282

109

107

202

194

169

151

178

April

289

11

112

216

194

158

147

189

May

296

2

110

223

191

157

23

184

June

298

1

115

222

185

148

11

176

July

299

15

117

206

175

136

7

174

August

303

47

126

196

173

136

6

165

September

300

68

139

190

170

129

5

160

October

224

82

151

189

171

136

5

162

November

239

85

162

199

173

141

7

155

December

274

77

169

204

167

141

78

149

Pig-Iron Trade

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will supply the following information, namely, the monthly returns of outputs of pig-iron from 1st January, 1920, up to 31st December, 1927, in the pig-iron trade; the number of furnaces on blast during the same period; the percentage of unemployed in the pig-iron trade for each month during the same period; and the percentage of unemployed in the trade in the years 1913 and 1914?

With the hon. Members permission, I will circulate the figures so far as they are available, in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following are the figures:

(iii)—STATEMENT SHOWING THE PERCENTAGES OF INSURED WORKPEOPLE in the pig-iron industry recorded as unemployed at the end of each month from July, 1923, to December, 1927. A revision in the system of industrial classification took place in July, 1923, and comparable figures for earlier months are not available. For the years 1913 and 1914 similar particulars are not available.

Month (end of).

1923.

1924.

1925.

1926.

1927.

January

13·9

17·6

20·0

20·4

February

10·4

18·2

17·5

15·9

March

12·1

18·2

15·6

12·6

April

11·6

20·5

13·4

13·6

May

14·1

17·8

59·0 *

11·6

June

13·8

19·5

70·9 *

12·8

July

10·1

14·2

25·3

66·9 *

12·3

August

13·7

14·0

24·4

65·1 *

16·5

September

16·5

15·7

25·3

68·3 *

15·2

October

15·8

17·3

21·6

63·5 *

13·3

November

12·1

17·4

20·6

60·7 *

15·1

December

11·6

18·1

20·4

45·0 *

14·1

* Affected by dispute in Coal Mining Industry. Affected by dispute in Coal Mining Industry.

Production Index

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will consider the desirability of collecting such information as will enable him to publish, within a reasonable time after the end of each year, an index of British production?

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend that material of the character described in the question should be gathered, and have for some time been taking steps to secure the necessary information. I hope to be able to arrange for the publication of, not merely an annual, but a quarterly index of industrial production in this country.

Motor Vehicles and Chassis (Exports)

asked the President of the Board of Trade what was the value of British motor vehicles and chassis exported in 1924 and 1927, respectively; and whether he can give the approximate amount of labour employed on their manufacture in the same years?

The value of the exports of motor vehicles for touring and commercial purposes, and complete chassis, produced or manufactured in the United Kingdom amounted in 1924 to £4,869,000, and in 1927 to £8,456,000. I am not in a position to state how much employment is represented by these figures.

Is it not a fact that the exports of vehicles and chassis actually increased more rapidly than the increase in the imports?

Speaking from memory, I think that is so. There has certainly been remarkable progress in the industry, and, while I cannot give the actual employment figures completely, they represent a great increase in employment in these industries.

Did not the export of motor vehicles also increase to a greater extent in 1924–25, when there was no duty?

Spanish Guinea and Fernando (Tariffs)

asked the President of the Board of Trade what increases have been made by the Spanish Government in the new scale of tariffs operating in the Spanish Guinea colony and Fernando; and whether the new duties on some goods are so drastic as materially to affect the Lancashire cotton trade?

The new tariff introduced in the Spanish Possession of the Gulf of Guinea involves heavy all-round increases in duties and increased preference for Spanish goods. It is obviously impossible to give full details within the limits of an answer to a question, but some particulars are given on page 23 of the Board of Trade Journal for 5th January, copy of which I am sending to my hon. and gallant Friend. Full particulars are available at the Department of Overseas Trade. As regards the second part of the question, I understand that the increases in the duties on textiles are particularly severe. His Majesty's Ambassador at Madrid has received instructions to endeavour to secure the best terms possible for British goods.

Assuming that the answer from the Spanish Government is not satisfactory, what steps will the Government take to get some satisfaction for Lancashire cotton?

That is an easier question to put than to answer, because my hon. Friend will appreciate that each Government in a foreign country is in control of its own administration. What steps we shall take here in future will naturally be a matter for our consideration.

Safeguarding of Industries

asked the President of the Board of Trade the number of applications for safeguarding received to date; and what has been the result of these applications?

The total number of applications received is now 47, of which 19 have been referred to committees of inquiry. In other respects the position remains as indicated in the answer given to the hon. Member on 22nd November, of which I am sending him a copy.

Cider and Cider Apples (Imports)

asked the President of the Board of Trade the quantities of cider and of cider apples imported into this country during the year 1927?

In 1927, the imports of cider or perry, not containing added spirit, amounted to 623,000 gallons. Separate particulars of the imports of cider apples are not available.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that you cannot buy foreign cider in this country, and can he say what happens to it?

No; I am afraid I cannot, but it suggests an interesting speculation.

Building Materials (Prices)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has received any explanation from the Inter-departmental Committee upon Prices of Building Materials as to why the price of glazed-ware sinks, second quality, cane and white fire-clay, has risen in London from 12s. 1d. each in April, 1914, to 37s. 6d. in January, 1924, and 40s. in November, 1927?

I am replying for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health, to whom this question should have been addressed. No, Sir; but my right hon. Friend is making inquiry of the Committee, and will communicate with the hon. Member further.

Does the right hon. Gentleman think any useful purpose is being served by keeping this Committee in existence, seeing that in no single case yet have any of the facts about increased prices brought to the notice of the Government by this Committee resulted in any action by the Government?

I think it is generally admitted that the Committee have done admirable work.

Has my right hon. Friend considered in this case giving the security of safeguarding, as that might bring down prices as it has in other cases?

Match Factories, Finland (Wages)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will obtain information as to the rate of wages paid to workers in match factories in Finland; and what are the average hours worked in those factories?

I have been asked to reply. I have addressed an inquiry to the International Labour Office at Geneva, and will communicate further with my hon. and gallant Friend.

Dried Sugar-Beet Pulp

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can state the amount of dried sugar-beet pulp exported from this country for the last four months; and, if not, the latest figures available?

The amount of dried sugar-beet pulp produced in the 1927–28 campaign is estimated at 87,658 tons; of this quantity 20,745 tons have been sold for export. The quantity actually exported in the past four months is not known.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that at the present moment there is a considerable number of dealers and farmers who are unable to obtain a supply of this pulp, and, at the same time, large quantities of it are being exported from this country? Will he take steps to deal with that position?

The factories are most anxious to dispose of their produce in this country, and they have taken steps to bring its advantages as a feeding stuff to the attention of farmers; they are most anxious to encourage the use of it in this country.

Has the right hon. Gentleman any power to prevent any body of people from selling their commodity where they can get the highest possible profit?

Unemployment

Transfer of Workers

asked the President of the Board of Trade what progress is being made by the committee set up to stimulate and assist the transfer of workers from distressed areas to openings in other areas both at home and overseas?

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the Commission appointed to transfer miners has made any transfers, and the number of miners for whom they have found employment and where?

I have been asked to reply. This Board was appointed on 7th January, and since then it has necessarily been wholly engaged in surveying the problem before it.

Can the hon. Gentleman tell us if the Committee have made any transfers? Have they done anything?

It is quite true that I am unable—and I think it would be unreasonable to expect me—to give specific examples at present, but I have every expectation and hope that practical results will follow from the Committee's activities.

Have they approached the coalowners who are refusing to give work to miners unless those miners desert the Miners' Federation and join the non-political union?

I cannot answer that question, because I do not know in what quarters they have been making their inquiries. What I do know is, that since their appointment on 7th January, they have had a great many meetings, and I have no doubt they have sought information in many quarters.

Will the hon. Gentleman approach the Committee and point out the desirability of appealing to the coal-owners not to force the miners to desert the Miners' Federation and join the non-political union?

I have no doubt the Committee will take such steps as may be desirable in order to attain the object which they have in view. I do not think it would be right on the part of the Minister to attempt to dictate to them how they should conduct their business.

Does this Committee deal only with mines, or will it have power to deal with dockyard workers, for instance?

That point really arises on a question which stands later on the Paper. The Committee deals particularly with miners but is not, I understand, limited to miners.

asked the President of the Board of Trade the conditions upon which the Commission to transfer miners was appointed; whether any salaries are being paid; and the estimated cost of the Commission?

I have been asked to reply. As announced in the Press on the 7th January, the industrial Transference Board was established for the purpose of facilitating the transfer of workers and, in particular, of miners for whom opportunities of employment in their own district or occupation are no longer available. No salaries are being paid to members for their services on the board.

May I apologise for having addressed this question to the Board of Trade instead of to the hon. Gentleman, but can he give an answer as to the estimated cost?

No, Sir. It is impossible to give any estimate at present. In view of the fact that no salaries have been paid the cost will, I think, necessarily be small, but an estimate now would be of no real value.

That, again, is a question which I cannot answer except to say this—that the Committee was appointed on 7th January, which is about five weeks ago, and since then, I understand, they have held 10 or 11 regular meetings in addition to informal gatherings.

Are we to understand that this Committee have no money at their disposal for the purpose of transferring miners? Will the hon. Gentleman try to find out whether they have or not?

If the hon. Gentleman wishes for a specific answer to that question, I would ask him to put it down. I could not give a definite answer offhand.

Is it not true that the value of a committee is not to be measured by the amount of money it spends?

asked the Secretary for Mines how many mine workers have migrated to Yorkshire from other counties during the year 1927?

I have been asked to reply. I regret there are no statistics available giving the information desired by the hon. Member.

Will the hon. Gentleman intimate to the Transference Board the inadvisability of migrating miners to Yorkshire, since there are over 20,000 miners out of work there already?

I have no doubt that the Transference Board will see the copy of the hon. Member's question and the answer.

May we take it that this information will be available after the Transference Board has been at work for a few months?

If the hon. Gentleman has no figures with regard to this migration to Yorkshire, can he tell us where the Prime Minister got his figure of 30,000 which he quoted last night?

Mining Areas

asked the Secretary for Mines the total number of miners and their dependants affected by unemployment in the coalfields?

I have been asked to reply. At 23rd January, 1928, there were recorded as unemployed in Great Britain 211,183 persons classified as belonging to the coal mining industry of whom 138,538 were wholly unemployed and 72,645 temporarily stopped from the service of their employers. Statistics are not available regarding the number of dependants of these workpeople.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that there are thousands of miners receiving notices almost every week, and has he any information concerning the notices given during the past few months?

asked the Secretary for Mines whether any special grants have been made by Parliament to relieve distress in the coalfields?

I have been asked to reply. While no special grant has been made for this purpose, the hon. Member will be aware that, in those coal-mining areas in which the need is greatest, the usual sources of relief are being drawn upon to a far greater extent than the average, and I have no reason to anticipate that these sources will prove inadequate. Apart from the direct relief of distress, the Government is actively pursuing various remedial measures in connection with the position in the coalmining areas, as stated in detail by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health in the Debate on the Address on Thursday last.

No doubt the hon. Member heard the speech of the Minister of Health last week, and, if he will look at that speech again, he will see that my right hon. Friend referred to three or four specific instances, and he mentioned transport, the training of the unemployed, and an inquiry into the rating question.

Does the Parliamentary Secretary contend that any of those subjects mentioned by the Minister of Health will give any relief at all to the distressed areas?

I certainly think that the scheme of training for the unemployed is giving some relief to those men to whom the hon. Member has referred.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that, in spite of the speech of the Minister of Health, it is a fact that nothing whatever has been done to relieve those men in the mining areas?

Navigable Waters (Oil Pollution)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the recommendations of the Washington Conference providing for the prohibition of the discharge of oily water from ships within zones of 50 miles width from the coasts have been confirmed by international convention?

The draft convention on oil in navigable waters is being considered by the Governments concerned, but it has not yet been signed. As I have previously informed the House, the main provision of this convention has been adopted voluntarily by the shipowners of this and some other of the principal maritime countries.

No. A form of convention was settled at Washington, and the United States Government are now trying to secure the signatures of all the Maritime Powers to that convention, and we are assisting them as much as we can to expedite those signatures. In the meantime, in order that action may be taken this country and several other countries have agreed voluntarily to put all these provisions into force.

Government Departments

Mercantile Marine (Offices, North and South Shields)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether it is proposed to transfer the mercantile marine offices of the Board of Trade in North Shields to South Shields; whether he is aware of the inconvenience and hardship this would inflict upon the seafaring population on the north bank of the river; whether he has received any representations from the Tynemouth Borough Council and other bodies representing the various interests likely to be affected; and whether he has come to any decision in the matter.

The question of amalgamating the Mercantile Marine Offices at North and South Shields in one office at the latter port is now under consideration, and the local interests which may be affected have been informed of this proposal in order that they may have an opportunity of stating their views before a final decision is arrived at. Representations have been received from the Tynemouth Borough Council, and these are being considered.

Scottish Board of Health (Offices, Glasgow)

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware that since the operation of the Widows', Orphans', and Old Age Contributory Pen- sions Act, 1925, the offices of the Scottish Board of Health in Glasgow are becoming increasingly used, particularly by persons of 65 years of age and over; that the present building is situated in a part of Glasgow difficult of access to elderly persons; that the room for inquiries is small and confined; that no lavatory accommodation is provided although they have to wait for some time; that on more than one occasion persons have fainted; and if he intends taking any steps to provide accommodation suitable for the present needs?

I am aware that as a result of the passing of the Contributory Pensions Act the number of callers at the office in question has greatly increased. As regards accessibility, while the nearest approach is hilly, the office may be reached by an alternative tram route more convenient to elderly people. The answer to the third part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the fourth part I am informed that while there is no public lavatory on the floor of the building on which the Board's office is situated, such accommodation exists on the ground floor. As regards the fifth part I understand that there have in fact been one or two cases of persons having fainted while in attendance at the office but such occurrences are rare. With regard to the last part of the question the position is that the present volume of business being conducted at the office is unusually great owing to the introduction of the Contributory Pensions Act, and until conditions return to a normal level it is not possible to estimate what accommodation may be necessary. If, however, it is found that the available accommodation is inadequate or unsuitable for the normal needs of the office I shall take the matter up with the Office of Works.

In view of the tremendous increase in this work and the total inaccessibility of the offices, will not the right hon. Gentleman consider obtaining temporary premises for the purpose of inquiries being made?

I have gone fully into this matter and I am considering it. As the hon. Gentleman must understand, offices are very difficult to get in Glasgow at anything like a reasonable cost.

In view of the fact that the Glasgow Corporation are embarking on certain schemes of building in the centre of the town, will the right hon. Gentleman approach them with a view to getting suitable premises?

I will, if the difficulty continues, take the matter up with the Office of Works, which is the Department concerned.

Is the right hon. Gentleman fully aware that these are old people, in many cases infirm people, and that it is very difficult for them to get to the offices?

China (British Troops)

asked the Secretary of State for War the cost of the Shanghai Defence Force to date?

The estimated extra cost to Army funds of the additional troops sent to China is about £4,100,000 up to 31st March next.

asked the Secretary of State for War the number of reservists who responded to the call to the colours in order to bring up the various units to full strength prior to despatch to China; how many failed to report; the number who have since been returned to this country; and of this number how many have not yet been able to secure re-employment?

asked the Secretary of State for War if he can supply information regarding the placing in employment of the Section A reservists returned from China; the number of men returned; the number in employment; and the number unable to return to their former employment?

Over 2,900 Section A reservists rejoined the colours, of whom 2,700 were sent to China, the rest being relegated to the reserve or discharged for medical unfitness. Only 10 Section A reservists failed to report. The only Section A reservists now retained abroad are two who are in hospital. As regards the numbers who are still out of employment, there is considerable difficulty in keeping in touch with the men on this point after they have left the colours, and figures, if they are not up to date, are apt to be misleading. I have had a special communication sent to each Section A reservist who has returned from China asking whether he is resettled in civil life and whether he wishes his name still to be registered with the societies engaged in obtaining work for ex-soldiers, who are making special efforts on behalf of these men. As soon as I have the latest figures based on these inquiries I will communicate them to the hon. Members.

British Army

Recruiting

asked the Secretary of State for War the number of men who volunteered to serve in His Majesty's forces during the 12 months ended 31st December, 1927; the number accepted; the number rejected; and the reasons for such rejection?

I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT the latest figures, which relate to the recruiting year ending in October, 1927.

Following are the figures:

Numbers rejected, attested, and finally approved, etc., during the year 1926–27.

Served with Notice Papers

83,814

Casualties before attestation—

Rejected by Recruiters or Recruiting Officers for physical reasons

33,484

Rejected by Medical Officers for physical reasons

16,198

Failed to appear for attestation

1,287

Rejected by Recruiters or Recruiting Officers for other than physical reasons and other casualties

2,955

Total casualties before attestation

53,924

Attested

29,890

1926–27.

Casualties after attestation—

Rejected by Medical Officers for physical reasons

587

Rejected by Approving Officers for physical reasons

127

Deserted

94

Rejected by Approving Officers for other than physical reasons and other casualties

1,144

Total casualties after attestation

1,952

Finally approved

27,938

Costs of Maintenance

26, 27 and 28.

asked the Secretary of State for War (1) the comparative total costs of maintenance for an average period of 12 months in Great Britain, including pay, rations, forage, fuel, repairs, and replacements of a regular infantry battalion, a cavalry regiment, a field artillery brigade, mechanically-drawn and horse-drawn, respectively, of a tank battalion, light and medium, respectively, and of a machine-gun battalion;

(2) the comparative total costs of maintenance for an average period of 12 months in Great Britain, including pay, rations, forage, fuel, repairs, and replacements, of a Territorial infantry battalion, of a Territorial field artillery brigade, of a Yeomanry cavalry regiment, of a Yeomany machine-gun unit, of a Yeomanry scouts regiment, of a Yeomanry armoured-car company, and of an officers' training corps battalion;

(3) the comparative total costs of maintenance for an average period of 12 months in Great Britain, including pay, rations, forage, fuel, repairs, and replacements, of a horse-drawn field battery, tractor-drawn battery, and an S. P. battery, of a rifle company of infantry and a machine-gun company, of a sabre squadron of cavalry and a machine-gun squadron, of a light tank company, and an armoured-car company, Rolls and Peerles, respectively, in the Regular Army?

My Noble Friend will find the information as to the cost of many of the units mentioned on page 67 and in Appendix II of Army Estimates, 1927. To work out the figures for other units will involve a considerable amount of time and labour, but if my Noble Friend will let me know what information he requires supplementary to that in the Estimates, I will endeavour to meet his wishes.

Lance

asked the Secretary of State for War whether the lance is to be abolished altogether as a weapon for war or whether it will be retained for lancer regiments abroad and in India?

The lance has been abolished as a weapon for war for lancer regiments on the British Establishment at home and abroad, but is being retained for ceremonial purposes. The question whether it will be retained as a weapon for war in India is a question for the Government of India.

Did the Army Council, before making this decision, take into consultation Generals commanding mounted units employed in various theatres of war, such as Palestine and Iraq; are they aware that it was the opinion of officers on those fronts that the lance was the more efficient weapon of the two, and that three Australian brigades applied, after the 1917 operations, to be armed with the lance; and in view of those facts, will they not reconsider the decision?

Is the lance being abolished on account of economy or on account of being an inferior weapon, and, if the latter, why is it the only weapon they use for pigsticking?

This seems to be an interesting subject for debate on the Army Estimates.

Service Overseas (Boys)

asked the Secretary of State for War if he is aware that a youth of 16 years was charged on 9th January at Brighton with desertion from the Army; that the boy's reason for desertion was that he was being sent to India illegally; whether this youth has since been sent to India; and what is the earliest age at which it is possible to send soldiers to India or anywhere overseas?

My attention has been drawn to the case of a band boy who was charged at Brighton on 9th January, 1928, with being an absentee from his unit. The boy had been enlisted to fill a vacancy as such in the Foreign Service Battalion of his corps, and is now under orders to embark for India in March. Under the Regulations, boys enlisted as such to fill vacancies in units-abroad may be sent overseas provided they are at least 15 years of age at the date of embarkation.

Does not the hon. Gentleman think that that age is too low for boys to be sent overseas, and will he make representations to his chief for it to be raised?

No; special care is taken of boys when they are overseas, and the consent of their parents is obtained before they are enlisted.

Scotland

Mail Services (Steamships)

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many times MacBrayne's steamer "Fusilier" has failed to reach Tarbert, Lochfyne, this winter; whether he is aware that the steamer was seriously injured in the rough weather on Friday, 13th January, and could not get round Ardlamont Point; and whether he considers that the steamer is a suitable boat to carry the mails?

I have been asked to reply. Since the 1st of November last the "Fusilier" has failed to reach Tarbert on only two occasions, the failure in each case being due to stress of weather. I have no knowledge of any damage being sustained by the vessel on the 13th of January. I am satisfied that the contractors are doing their best to maintain a satisfactory service, having regard to the exceptionally severe weather and the casualties their fleet has suffered during the past year, and I am not now in a position to press for the provision of a better vessel on this service, but the matter is under consideration.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Kilcalmorell Parish Council have passed a resolution saying that this boat is absolutely unfitted for the service; is he aware also that an ordinary Lochfyne herring boat can go round Ardlamont Point in any weather; and will he make sure that the mail boat is capable of doing as good work as a Lochfyne herring boat?

As I have already informed my hon. Friend, the weather during the past six weeks in that locality has been exceptionally severe.

In view of the great age of the "Fusilier," will the right hon. Gentleman consider giving it an old age pension and making a younger vessel do the work?

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what progress has been made with the building of the swifter steamers promised for the Hebridean mail services?

The building of the new boats referred to is dependent upon the conclusion and ratification of a contract with the company concerned, and no contract has yet been signed.

Will the Minister keep in mind the statement which he made to me in this House that he expected one at least of those new steamers to be on duty this year?

As soon as ever the contract is concluded work will, no doubt, be proceeded with.

Will the Minister see that no contract is signed with this monopoly company, who are already liquidating the Highlands, and whose charges none of the Highlanders can pay; and will he take steps to see that a system of transport, under proper supervision, and with charges which are suitable, is instituted?

Can the right hon. Gentleman give this House an undertaking that no contract will be signed with this firm until the House has had an opportunity of discussing it?

May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman has not already given an undertaking to me that this contract will be first submitted to the House before he signs it?

Of course, any contract entered into with the Government has to come to this House for ratification. In regard to what the hon. and learned Member for Argyllshire (Mr. Macquisten) says, as far as the Government are concerned their desire is to get the best possible service at a reasonable price.

Is it not necessary that the charges for ordinary passengers and freights should be supervised?

Small Holdings, Shiel Deer Forest

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether any decision has yet been arrived at regarding the application of three ex-service men for small holdings on the Shiel Deer Forest, Ross-shire; and whether; seeing that parts of this deer forest were surveyed and declared suitable for small holdings six years ago, he can say what has been the cause of the delay in arriving at a decision in this case?

The question of formulating a scheme of land settlement to provide for applicants in the neighbourhood of Shiel Deer Forest is still under consideration. A previous scheme framed after the survey referred to in the second part of the question was not proceeded with principally on account of the excessive cost.

Did not the right hon. Gentleman say a word a year ago to the effect that this was still under consideration, and can he give any date when he is likely to make a decision?

I have sent someone to make a full report on the whole district, and when I get it I shall be happy to take it into consideration.

School Accommodation, Glasgow

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he has visited recently any schools situated in the Gorbals Division of Glasgow; if so, the names of such schools; and if he proposes any action in conjunction with the local authority to alter or replace them?

I recently visited Cleland Street Public School, formerly known as Greenside Street. My Depart- ment continue to keep in close touch with the education authority regarding this building and they will lose no opportunity of advising as to further action.

When does the right hon. Gentleman intend to treat the schools in the Gorbals Division as he has treated the schools in his own Division?

Cream (Preservatives)

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether the representations which have been made by the creameries of Scotland regarding the effects, both on their business and on the supply of cream, to large towns, of the recent Order restricting the use of preservative in cream have been investigated; if so, with what result; and whether he is prepared to receive a deputation of interests affected in the near future?

Only a few creameries in Scotland have made representations regarding the effect of the prohibition of boric acid in cream. Since 1st January, the date when the Regulations came info operation in regard to cream, the Scottish Board of Health have made inquiries in many districts and cities affected. The reports obtained show that in the south and south-west of Scotland there has been some trouble with cream going sour, but to a considerable extent this is to be attributed to the fact that no sufficient use was made of the two and a half years given as a period of grace by the Preservative Regulations so as to secure improvement in the methods and conditions of production and distribution. Active steps are now being taken by many creameries, including the promotion of clean milk competitions among producers to improve the hygienic and keeping qualities of the milk from which cream is produced. There is substantial evidence that cream, properly produced from clean milk and properly handled, will keep sweet for several days. The Scottish Board of Health accordingly see no reason to rescind the Regulations as far as they apply to cream, and as a deputation from the creameries concerned was received last September there appears to be no necessity for a further interview on the subject at present.

If bad results have been obtained in the cold weather, does not the right hon. Gentleman see that in the summer the results will be so disastrous that these creameries will have to close down?

No; as I have stated, it is nothing to do with the weather, but with the methods of treatment.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that certain creameries have information which they desire to put before him by deputation but which they are not prepared to put before him in writing, and will he consider receiving a deputation?

As I saw this deputation as late as last September, I do not think there is anything fresh at the moment which has a further bearing on the question, and I think it will be well to defer any question of a further deputation.

If, after this Order has been in force a few more weeks, they have more information than they had in September, will the right hon. Gentleman receive a deputation?

I do not think it ought to be a matter of weeks; it ought to be a matter of a longer period, and I am quite prepared to receive a deputation at a later date.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this Order is affecting the cream business not only in Scotland, but all over England, and does he think it is the right time to put further difficulties in the way of the farmers?

Arable Land, Orkney Islands

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland the acreage of arable land in the Orkney Islands in the years 1919 to 1927, inclusive?

As the reply contains a number of figures, I propose, with the hon. Member's permission, to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Will my right hon. Friend say generally whether the figures show an increase, a decrease, or no change?

I think the hon. Member had better wait for the copy of the answer.

Following are the figures:

Year.

Acreage under Crops.

Acreage under Rotation Grasses and Clover.

Total arable Acreage.

Acres.

Acres.

Acres.

1919

56,776

37,441

94,217

1920

55,381

38,526

93,907

1921

54,664

38,929

93,593

1922

54,320

39,219

93,539

1923

53,517

39,527

93,044

1924

52,945

40,355

93,300

1925

52,288

40,339

92,627

1926

51,729

40,684

92,413

1927

50,817

41,856

92,673

Parish Areas, Glasgow

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware that on the south side of Glasgow three parish councils are operating; that there is a wide difference in the amount of rates to be paid in each area although in the same city; that in one new housing area, built by aid of Government subsidy, the rates operating in two different streets have a wide difference; and if he intends to take action under the Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1894, to exercise his powers to combine the parish areas together?

I am aware that within the City of Glasgow there are several parishes or parts of parishes separately administered under the Poor Law Acts and that on account of the different industrial conditions in those parishes the poor rate in some areas is much less than in others. Under Section 46 of the Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1894, and Section 51 of the Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1889, I have power to make an Order uniting several parishes or parts of parishes into one parish on the representation of the town council or other authority mentioned in these sections. I have, however, no such representation before me at the present time, nor would it be proper for me to commit myself beforehand as to my decision on any such representation.

In view of the facts in the question, which are admitted, will not the right hon. Gentleman consider setting up some form of inquiry to investigate the position which has now arisen in Glasgow?

Illegal Trawling

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland the number of convictions obtained in respect of offences for illegal trawling in Scotland during the year 1927, showing also the number of cases in which the guilty parties had been previously convicted for similar offences?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the number of convictions does not represent 5 per cent. of the number of times the offence is committed?

Board of Agriculture (Annual Report)

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when the Annual Report of the Board of Agriculture for Scotland, covering the year 1927, will be ready for publication; and what were the causes for' the delay in issuing the Report for 1926?

The Report for 1927 will be issued as early as possible, probably during May. The Report for 1926 was presented to Parliament on 30th May last. Between the middle of May and the middle of June is the usual time at which this Report is available.

Landlords and Tenants

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he intends to introduce a Measure this Session, on similar lines to the Landlord and Tenant Act, affording the same protection to tenants in Scotland as was conferred by this Measure in England and Wales last year?

The matter referred to by the hon. Member is presently receiving my consideration, but I am not in a position to hold out any prospects of legislation on the subject during the present Session.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is widespread disappointment that this legislation was not applied to Scotland last year, and that merchants are finding themselves in great difficulty owing to the fact that they are being exploited by increases of rent?

I am not aware that any great representations to that effect were made when the Bill was going through the House. I have, however, received representations on the subject, and am considering them.

Did the right hon. Gentleman not receive representations from various bodies, and from myself, when the Measure was before the House?

Coal Industry

Miners' Welfare Fund, South Staffordshire and North Worcestershire

asked the Secretary for Mines what sum stands to the credit of the Miners' Welfare Fund in the South Staffordshire and North Worcestershire district; how much money from this fund has been spent since its formation in 1920; and upon what schemes?

The amount received from this district for use on local welfare schemes is £32,180. Recommendations have been received from the District Welfare Committee involving the expenditure of £15,353 on seven schemes, five of which are recreational, one educational and one for provision of tickets of entry into convalescent homes. All these were approved. The sum at present available for further local schemes is £16,827.

Slack and Dust (Patent Fuel)

asked the Secretary for Mines whether he can give statistics for the last five years of the output of patent fuel manufactured from slack and dust coal; how far this fuel is suited for household use in regard to heat-giving qualities and freedom from smoke; and whether there is any increase in its consumption for domestic purposes?

As the answer includes a table of figures I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the answer:

The quantity of manufactured fuel produced at works in Great Britain and the quantity available for consumption at home in the years 1923 to 1926 are as follows:—

Year.

Quantity of Manufactured Fuel.

Produced.

Available for Consumption at Home (i.e., Production less Exports).

Tons.

Tons.

1923

1,149,089

76,989

1924

1,189,518

117,547

1925

1,223,454

58,271

1926

837,335

116,191

Similar information for 1927 is not yet available.

Statistics of the consumption for domestic purposes are not available, but the quantity so used is small. I am not aware of any comparative tests between patent fuel and house coal with regard to freedom from smoke, but the published results of tests by the Fuel Research Board show that the radiation efficiency of patent fuel is slightly less than that of house coal. The calorific value of patent fuel depends on the coal from which it is made.

Pit Inspectors (Appointments, Nottinghamshire)

asked the Secretary for Mines whether he is aware that Section 16 of the Coal Mines Regulation Act, 1911, is being rendered abortive at a considerable number of Nottinghamshire collieries by reason of the action of the owners of the said collieries refusing to accept as pit inspectors men who have been appointed to that office in accordance with the statute and with regulations issued by the Mines Department; and, if so, what steps he proposes to take in the matter?

I am not aware of any breach of the Statute or Regulations on the part of the owners of Nottinghamshire collieries. I have caused the colliery owners of Nottinghamshire to be informed what I consider the requirements of the Section to be, and in cases in which the hon. Member has given me specific information I am making inquiries.

Does that mean that the inspectors and those responsible have never reported anything of this description; and is he aware that this kind of thing has been going on for weeks and months, and nothing has been done? According to the answer which we have just received neither the hon. and gallant Gentleman nor his Department know anything about this matter.

Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that I have been in touch with his Department ever since last July, and in spite of inquiries made, no action has yet been taken in a single case?

I am not aware of the extent of the cases which the hon. Member has put forward. I know that he has put cases to me in regard to which I am making inquiries. As regards my answer, it means what it says. I am not aware of any breach of the Statute or the Regulations at the present time.

Does the Secretary for Mines mean that there has been no report from the officials of his Department about this tyranny which has been going on for months and months?

Do not the second and the third supplementary questions answer one another.

When an Act of Parliament is involved, does the hon. and gallant Gentleman not think that his inspectors ought to have informed him in the course of the last six months during which these actions have been taking place?

I am not aware that these actions are illegal, but I am making inquiries.

Is the Secretary for Mines not aware that under the Mines Act of 1911 workmen are entitled to appoint workmen's inspectors, and the coalowners have prevented them from carrying that out?

New Hucknall Colliery, Nottingham (Wages)

asked the Secretary for Mines whether he is aware that at the New Hucknall Colliery, Nottingham, the employer has recently reduced the price paid to the workmen for the getting of the coal; that when the workmen rejected the proposition to reduce rates-they were dismissed; that work has now been resumed, such workmen as are taken on being compelled to agree to the reduction in wages, to a deduction from wages as contribution to a trade union, and to dismiss their former checkweigher; and what action he is taking in the matter?

I am asking the colliery company for their observations on this question, but the complaints contained in it do not at present appear to relate to matters in which I have any statutory powers.

If the facts are as stated in the allegation, is it not clear that there has been a breach of the Coal Mines Act?

With regard to the last allegation, I heard it stated in this House last week that the miners were going to take legal action in regard to the checkweighers. If that be so, then it is not competent for me to interfere.

Are we to infer that the necessity for carrying out the Act of Parliament devolves upon the trade union, and not upon the Mines Department?

I have already said that I have asked for the observations of the colliery company, and I cannot do more than promise to inquire into the statements which have been made.

Is it not a fact that the Act relating to checkweighers was specifically passed with the idea of protecting men from any undue influence on the part of the employers in regard to the selection of checkweighers? In view of what has been happening in this coal field, will the Secretary for Mines hurry up matters in order to stop this business?

Accidents

asked the Secretary for Mines the number of fatal accidents in and about coal mines in Great Britain in 1927; the number of serious accidents during the same period; the number of persons employed; and the average number of shifts worked per man per week?

During 1927, there were 1,126 persons killed and 4,615 persons seriously injured at mines under the Coal Mines Act. It is estimated that the average number of persons employed at these mines was 1,030,000 and that on the average 4.7 shifts were worked per man per week.

Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman not aware that his failure to appoint more inspectors is a contributory cause in regard to these accidents, and will he give every facility for these inspectors being appointed?

Wages, Yorkshire

asked the Secretary for Mines the amount paid in wages to Yorkshire mine workers in the years 1924, 1925 and 1927, respectively?

The total amount paid to wage-earners employed at coal mines in Yorkshire in 1925 was approximately £26 million, and in 1927 £22.9 million. I regret that the corresponding figure for 1924 is not available.

In view of the hon. and gallant Gentleman's reply, showing that the mine workers received over £3,000,000 less in 1927 than they received in 1925, may I ask if he agrees with the statement of the Minister of Health that the miners have been better off since the passing of the Eight Hours Act?

New Zealand (British Liaison Officer)

asked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement regarding the recent appointment of a British liaison officer in New Zealand; whether this official has been appointed at the request of the Government of New Zealand; what are his functions; and to whom will he report in London?

Following upon the discussion at the last Imperial Conference as to the system of communication and consultation between His Majesty's Governments, and in accordance with a request of the Prime Minister of New Zealand, arrangements have been made for a member of the staff of the Foreign Office to be seconded for attachment to the Department of the Prime Minister of New Zealand in a consultative or informative capacity, especially in relation to foreign affairs. He will not exercise executive or administrative functions nor-will he be in any sense a representative of His Majesty's Government in Great Britain.

Post Office

Administration and Control

asked the Prime Minister whether it is the intention of the Government to transfer the administration and control of the Post Office service from the State to private enterprise?

Do we understand that the right hon. Gentleman repudiates the statement made by the Assistant Postmaster-General that the Post Office should be handed over to private enterprise, and his attacks on the administration and the staff of the Post Office?

I do not think that my hon. Friend made any statement of that kind. I did see what he said. It struck me that when he has attained years of discretion he will speak with that caution, which characterises every one of our utterances.

With your permission, Sir, I will raise this matter on the Adjournment of the House.

Press Telegram Rates (Sir Hardman Lever)

asked the-Postmaster-General whether he is aware that Sir Hardman Lever is a director of the "Daily Mail" Trust, Limited, and chairman of the "Daily Sketch" and "Sunday Herald,' Limited; and the grounds on which he decided that a director of newspaper companies should be appointed to adjudicate as to the adequacy of the rates paid by the newspaper companies for their Press telegrams?

I have no reason to suppose that the positions which Sir Hardman Lever occupies prevent him from giving a competent opinion upon the matters upon which his Committee were invited to advise. They were not appointed to adjudicate.

Having regard to the enormous menace presented by the growth of newspaper trusts, is it not important to prevent these proprietors from controlling directly the policy of the Government?

Is the Postmaster-General aware that the "Daily Mail" has advocated that the State should not subsidise newspapers by giving them facilities in connection with Press telegrams?

Advertisements (Springburn Office)

asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that the presence of liquor advertisements in the new post office at Springburn is resented by a number of the citizens; and will he take steps to have these removed?

I have received no representations in the sense suggested. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative.

Did not the right hon. Gentleman receivel a copy of a resolution which was sent out, as I had a copy sent to me; and, in view of that fact, will he inquire at his office as to whether it has teen received or not?

My information was that no representations had been received.

Is it not true that the Government in their wisdom refused to have drink advertisements in Carlisle, and would it not be advisable that they should stop drink advertisements in post offices, which they control?

Is it not the case that, no matter whether the right hon. Gentleman receives these protests or not, he will not act upon them?

Since we are told by the Postmaster-General that these advertisements are put up for purposes of revenue, why does he refuse similar advertisements from temperance people?

No; here is a copy of one that was refused. The temperance party have been denied the same rights as the publicans' party.

Does not my right hon. Friend know perfectly well that good liquor needs no advertisement?

Prayer, Book Measure (Discussion)

asked the Prime Minister whether the House can be assured that the Debate on the Prayer Book in the House of Commons will not again be limited to one day?

I cannot give a definite reply at the moment. If, however, the state of business will allow, and there is a general desire for more than one day for the discussion of the Prayer Book Measure, I shall be prepared to consider it.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the bishops have said that owing to the inadequate discussion of this Measure last year, the House was both ill-informed and ill-advised on the question, and that our censure was consequently ill-considered?

Does not the Prime Minister consider that there are questions of much more urgent importance to this country than the Prayer Book?

This is a matter within the competence of the House itself to decide.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman think it would have been better for the Church itself to come to an agreement before it troubled this House?

Could the Prime Minister arrange for the Division to be taken the day after the discussion, to enable hon. Members to come to their bearings?

Excess Profits Duty

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whether he will give the total amount received by the Government, since the date of its introduction, from Excess Profits Duty, and the amount still outstanding, if any?

Up to the 31st January, 1928, the gross amount of Excess Profits Duty (including Munitions Levy) that had been collected since its imposition was approximately £1,441,360,000; repayments during the same period amounted to about £245,900,000, leaving a total net receipt of £1,195,460,000. I regret that I am unable to furnish any estimate of the arrears of this tax remaining to be collected.

Ottoman Debt

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the present position of the negotiations with respect to the Ottoman Debt and, in particular, the payments made formerly by Egypt in connection with the Anglo-French Guaranteed Loan of 1856 and the payments allotted to the various Succession States of the old 'Ottoman Empire?

I have been asked to reply. The question of the payment formerly made by Egypt towards the service of the Guaranteed Loan of 1855 is at present being discussed between a Committee appointed by the Egyptian Government and Sir Reginald Patterson, representing the British Government. I understand that negotiations between representatives of the Turkish Government and representatives of the bondholders as regards the Turkish share of the Ottoman Debt are being conducted in Paris, and that agreement has now been reached, except as regards one or two subsidiary points. The method of settlement of the share allotted to Palestine and Iraq is at present being discussed between those Governments and the Ottoman Debt Council; the share allotted to Italy has already been settled. So far as I am aware no settlement has yet been reached as regards the shares allotted to the other Succession States.

Do I understand that our Government are still paying half the guaranteed interest on the Turkish Loan of 1855, in spite of the fact that the French Government and ourselves are jointly responsible for that debt?

That is so. We are paying our share. We are now in communication with the French Government with the object of adjusting the whole matter.

My point is are we paying only our share, namely, the Cyprus tribute, as it used to be called, or are we paying the French share, which used to be paid by the Egyptian Government?

This is rather a technical matter, and I should be glad if the right hon. and gallant Gentleman would put down a question on the Paper, but, as I said just now, we are negotiating with the French Government on the subject at the present moment.

Rates

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in connection with the inquiry into the incidence of Rates, he will secure Reports as to the practice in South Africa and Rhodesia and have the Report made to the Colonial Office by Mr. Justice Feetham considered?

I have obtained Mr. Justice Feetham's Report and will have it examined along with other information sent me by my right hon. Friend, but I cannot feel much confidence that any proposals I may hereafter be able to make will entirely commend themselves to him.

In addition to the Feetham Report, would the right hon. Gentleman make an inquiry as to the system in South Africa, and Rhodesia?

I am not sure that any special inquiry is needed. The Government are actually in possession of most of the information available, or at any rate they are in possession of quite enough information to know where they stand at the present time.

Have the Government been reviewing the speeches which the right hon. Gentleman made during the famous campaign for the taxing of land values?

Electricity Supply Act (Contracts)

asked the Minister of Transport how many contracts have been placed abroad for material and plant necessary to carry out any work under the provisions of the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1926?

I have no control over the letting of contracts in connection with the work arising out of the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1926. I understand, however, that the only contract yet placed by the Central Electricity Board has been given to a British firm.

National Debt (Conversion Operations)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what has been the saving in interest and what has been the increase in the face value of the National Debt owing to the conversion operations which have been carried out since the House was pro- rogued in December; and what option of further conversion is available to the holders of the new bonds?

As the answer is long and contains many figures, I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the answer:

5 per cent. Treasury Bonds, 1933–35, to the face value of £129,416,000 were issued in exchange for the following maturing liabilities:

£

5 per cent. National War Bonds, 1928, face value

110,857,000

5 per cent. National War Bonds, premium

5,543,000

4 per cent. National War Bonds, 1928 (Income Tax compounded)

12,525,000

£128,925,000

Transport

Railway Dining-Car Attendants

asked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware that railway dining-car attendants are habitually required to be on the trains for periods up to 48 and 53 hours, with insufficient sleep and great irregularity of meals, in consequence of which there is a great deal of ill-health among these men, particularly tuberculosis and gastric disorders; and whether he will make inquiry of both the railway companies and the employés' representatives regarding the conditions of work on dining-cars?

I have been asked to reply. I am informed by the Great Western, London, Midland and Scottish, and London and North Eastern companies that there is no foundation for the statement that the railway dining-car attendants are habitually required to be on the trains for periods up to 48 and 53 hours. The conditions of service of the staff on these lines are the subject of agreements with the National Union of Railwaymen, except on a section of the London, Midland and Scottish. With regard to the Southern Railway, who do not directly employ dining-car staff, I am making further inquiries, and I will communicate with the hon. Member on the subject as soon as I have further information.

Scheduled Distbict Roads (Cost of Maintenance)

asked the Minister of Transport what would be the cost to the Ministry of Transport if it decided to maintain in full every scheduled district road?

The estimated cost, for the current financial year, of the maintenance of scheduled roads for which district authorities are responsible, is £5 millions, and, of scheduled roads for which county authorities are responsible, £1,380,000.

London Traffic (Grosvenor House Site)

asked the Minister of Transport if his approval was obtained before the plans were finally passed for the erection of the new flats on the Grosvenor House site; and, if so, what arrangements have been made to deal with the traffic congestion that will occur in Park Lane and Grosvenor Gate as soon as the building is fully occupied?

My approval is not required, and I have no authority in the matter, nor, according to my informa- tion, do the London County Council, in their examination of plans for new buildings, consider that they have any power to insist upon the provision of adequate accommodation for the traffic that will be attracted to these buildings, with a view to avoiding congestion in the streets.

Speaking for myself, I think it would be entirely desirable that such powers should be given to local authorities.

Road Surfaces (Gritting)

asked the Minister of Transport whether his attention has been drawn to the practice of some local authorities to scatter small flints on the roadways when the roads are slippery because of ice, snow, or rain; whether he is aware that the use of flints is very injurious to motor tyres and causes frequent punctures; and whether, under these circumstances, he is prepared to issue a circular to the local authorities suggesting that they should only use sand for this purpose?

The gritting of road surfaces cannot always be effectively or economically performed with sand, and various methods are employed, depending upon local conditions and local supplies of material. I do not think it necessary to issue a circular, as I feel confident that local authorities will, so far as possible, avoid materials which are likely to cause unnecessary damage to tyres.

Threshing Sets

asked the Minister of Transport whether he proposes to introduce legislation during this Session to reduce the number of men compulsorily carried on threshing sets from three to two?

The number of men to be carried on locomotives and vehicles drawn by them is a matter which would be dealt with in the Road Traffic Bill, but I am unable to say when this Bill will be introduced.

What useful purpose does the right hon. Gentleman serve by continually making reference to this Bill, when he can give no information as to when it will be introduced?

New Member Sworn

Robert Parkinson Tomlinson, esquire, for the County of Lancaster (Lancaster Division).

Factories Bill

"to consolidate, with amendments, the enactments relating to factories, and for purposes connected therewith," presented by Mr. Tinker; supported by Mr. Arthur Henderson, Mr. Rhys Davies, Miss Wilkinson, Mr. Mackinder, Mr. Robinson, Mr. Thomas Shaw, and Mr. Duncan; to fee read a Second time upon Friday, 30th March, and to be printed. [Bill 33.]

Orders of the Day

King's Speech

Debate on the Address

[SIXTH DAY.]

Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [

"That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, as followeth:

"MOST GRACIOUS SOVEREIGN,

We, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, in Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to Your Majesty for the Gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament."—[ Lieut.-Colonel Lambert Ward. ]

Question again proposed.

Social Policy

I beg to move, at the end of the Question, to add the words: he would take up the Gracious Speech, which, after all, is only a euphemism for the Government's programme for the coming Session, and he would find that the King of Afghanistan is going to pay us a visit and that there is an arbitration treaty with the United States of America, which the Foreign Secretary tells us is confined to matters,, using his own big words, of a justiciable character, which, as I understand it, means of a character that has no political significance whatsoever, and even then the Foreign Secretary was of opinion that, so far as he could see, it would make no difference whatsoever.

Then you come to domestic affairs, and he would see that there was some cause for some anxiety in some of the industries, but that we all hope that by the operation of good will and steady progress everything will come right. In other words, we to whom are committed the responsibility of governing the people start the Session, with reference to the biggest grievance that exists,, by saying, "Let us trust to God: and do nothing." Then he would find that the incidence of local rates is being inquired into—a matter of casual importance. But what he would discover as the real, pressing, vital need of the country would be giving the franchise to girls of 21. That is the really important thing. A million workers with their anguished faces, with the danger they are, in their state of mind, to the community, with the industrial dislocation that they are bringing about—all these can wait, but the little girls must have their vote. [An HON. MEMBER: "Little girls of 30!"] Up to 30, but those of 21 are to get it, and after all it is they who will have the most fun out of it. If my supposed stranger were to contrast the things he really saw with the things the Government think it worth taking action about, he would be inclined to say, "If ever there was an illustration of the motto, 'Nero fiddling while Rome was burning,' we have it here. And what does the Prime Minister tell us?" "I am doing all this in order that this Session may end in July, and we may have a new adjustment in November." That is only six months. Perhaps, after all, six months is not so very important for these problems when six years have passed, and nothing has been done.

Would any Member of the Government seriously say that there are not things capable of being remedied by Government action which call for urgent action? What about unemployment? I know that it is an old subject. We have discussed it and re-discussed it for years past, and I am afraid we must continue to do so. Here we are, a nation that has great advantages over other countries. No enemy was ever on our land. We suffered no physical distress. Even after the War we had no collapse, like others, and no social evils. We have all these advantages, and yet though in other European countries, Germany, Norway, Denmark, though in America post-War unemployment has at times been as bad as ours, it has always been of an oscillating character. With us alone has the mercury rushed at once to the top point and stood still there except for six weeks. A million three years ago, a million to-day and a million every month of the interval, with the exception of one or two. We are told unemployment was always with us. Of course it was, but unemployment of a very different character, unemployment-due to seasonal occupations, and, now and then, to over-production, but never unemployment of this character before. We are told that there are more employed to-day than there were before the War. Of course there are. There were more employed in any given year for the last 100 years than there were before. Population grows, and a country that is healthy ought to be able to increase its work with the growth of its population. The point is not how many are employed, but how many are unemployed. Why is this million always with us? Are we to hold up our hands in despair and say, "We are a great nation with a great history, having shown ourselves in the past capable of solving the most difficult political problem. It is terrible, but nothing can be done. It passes the wit of man." Is that the answer that ought to be given by a Government in whom the electors showed such confidence as they did at the last election?

4.0 p.m.

There is no use in their saying, "What would you do?" I will tell you what I would do in a moment. After all, we are only 40, you are 400. The electors evidently thought that you were 10 times as wise. [An HON. MEMBER: "So we are!"] Then show your wisdom. I heard from the hon. Member for Aberdeen and Kincardine (Mr. Boothby) the other day a very excellent speech full of suggestions—something that could be done. He had worked out methods by which this unemployment could be handled. He is a private Member. He has not the records of the Government Departments behind him; he has not the assistance of trained civil servants. If he is able to think of these things why do the Government do nothing? The Minister of Health the other day said it is largely due to trade disputes. I know that is a popular cry, but, after all, we are here to try to get at the truth. The class of unemployment that is now with us has really nothing to do with trade disputes. A trade dispute creates unemployment while it is going on—[An HON. MEMBER: "And after!"]—and afterwards for a short time. If I am wrong, it can easily be proved in answer. I would ask anyone to look into the records of trade disputes in this country, and show me a case where, soon after the strike was over, people did not rush back again. This is the only case where unemployment has stood still, and, after all, we have not had a trade dispute lasting seven years, but we have had unemployment for seven years, and the same number of unemployed practically for seven years. I agree with what was said by the hon. Member for East Aberdeen. It is true that this unemployment is not wide. It is true that, outside the four or five basic industries, there is little or no unemployment. It is even true that some of the smaller industries are going through a period almost of prosperity. It is true that we have started some healthy new industries. That is all true, but what we have to apply our minds to is this: How is it that in our four or five great exporting industries, those industries upon which the prosperity of this country really rests, persistent unemployment has remained, and with all the clever men and well-informed men, as I am sure there are on the Government Bench, how is it possible that we have been unable to think out some way of dealing with it?

My own view is this: During the War these big industries of ours—coal, engineering, cotton, iron and steel—absorbed into them labour from all the smaller industries—the building trade, domestic service and so on. When the need for War production came to an end, these industries found themselves swollen with labour, and then there were certain added and unfortunate circumstances. Take coal. There was an excess of coal here, but the exigencies of war compelled other countries to discover new fields, so that not only is there more than the normal number of men engaged in coal mining, but we have less than the normal foreign demand. Take engineering. Again, there was a great rush there, and again an excess. What is engineering? Engineering is the trade that caters for the man who wants to put up big plant, gigantic machinery. That requires capital. We blew, so to speak, so much capital away at the cannon's mouth, that it has not been possible to accumulate enough to enable orders to be given for this high-class machinery and plant by which the engineer lives. That is why there is unemployment in engineering. Take shipbuilding. When the U-boat came along, we built as fast as we could against it. When the War was over we had double as much carrying power in the mercantile marine as was needed and, added to that, the ships acquired bigger speed and were able to give more carrying space because of using oil, and because of the great invention during the War. Then you come to the last thing I have mentioned—cotton. During the War, while we were rightly more occupied in making gun-cotton than in making ordinary cotton goods, the East, which bought most of our cotton, made for themselves.

Those, in my humble submission, are the real causes of unemployment in these big basic industries. Many of these causes will diminish as time goes on, and as civilisation comes back to its wonted position. But there is a great deal we can do to hurry that on. The hon. Member for East Aberdeen made some suggestions, and, before I close, I will make one or two suggestions, but in the meanwhile the real and pressing question is this: What are we going to do with the million able-bodied who are loafing, idling, discontented, grumbling in our midst? That is the immediate question. A million men bleeding industry for their maintenance to the tune of £100,000,000 a year, and industry is left so anæmic in this country that it is unable to stand up to competition with more sturdy nations—a million men whose wages, in the ordinary course, would be an immense purchasing fund for the whole market; a million men suffering moral and physical deterioration, a million men who have gathering within them those seeds of revolt and discontent that may have consequences few can imagine.

How are we going to get rid of the sore? That is the question. The Minister of Health took upon himself to reply to that. As far as I was able to gather, this is what the Government were doing, and, I must suppose, it is all they were doing, or he would have mentioned other things. In any case, he would, presumably, put the best goods in the Government shop window. He said, "Oh, our safeguarding of industries is giving employment to some." Their safeguarding of industries, as someone from these benches pointed out, is only a drop in the bucket. "But," says the right hon. Gentleman, "you know we are going to put many more drops in the bucket." He did not, however, tell the House how many drops are going to be spilt out of the big bucket in trying to put these few drops into the small ones. Everyone knows that a duty will give a little increased employment in a particular industry. It would not be asked for unless it did. We all know that the reason for asking for a duty is to get more orders, and so give more employment. We all know that, but the danger and argument against this class of duty is that what you gain in small industries you lose two-fold over in the big staple industries. [An HON. MEMBER: "Prove it."] I can assure the House I would not have the slightest objection to entering into that argument, but I do not think its elaboration would be quite relevant to the matter of my speech.

I am merely, for the moment, pointing out that when the Minister of Health comes forward and says he is dealing with a practical proposition—how to reduce the number of men standing dangerously idle—the first thing he puts forward is, at all events, to me, a controversial question, as to whether or not safeguarding does it. Not for a second did the Minister of Health pretend that safeguarding of industries was applicable to coal, iron, engineering, chemistry or cotton, or to those industries in which unemployment is greatest. What is the use of telling me our safeguarding puts men into work in some other industries. What we want to know is, how we are going to get men into work who are out of it in these industries, and the Minister's answer again and again is, "Oh, yes, but you see we are transferring labour from these big export industries into these smaller ones," and the right hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. Wheatley) asked him if he would tell him of a single industry to which men had been transferred in which there was not already unemployment. This took the Minister of Health aback, and he said, "Well, I admit that." But if that be so, then the transfer of some of the million to industries which already have unemployment simply means that you are taking away 100 from the unemployed in order to shut out 100 somewhere else. That does not absorb the million.

The next thing that the right hon. Gentleman said was this—and although I have the greatest possible respect for the logical acumen and clearness of the mind of the Minister, I am bound to say he was not quite up to the mark in this instance—that if more coal were produced in consequence of the eight hours' day, that must lead to more employment. An eight hours' day, I suppose, is a day where a man works eight instead of seven and a-half hours, and I should expect that the same man working the eight hours would produce more than if he only worked seven and a-half. Therefore, if you find that more coal has been sold since the Eight Hours Act, the inference is, not that more men have been employed, but that more work has been done by the men, and, in fact, I am told that the actual additional output per man under the Eight Hours Act—some may commend it for this reason; I do not—has been 14 per cent. more. If, therefore, your sales are less than 14 per cent, more, it stands to reason that you must be employing fewer men, and, as a matter of statistical fact, your savings are infinitely less than 14 per cent, more, and while the right hon. Gentleman entertained some of us by what, if he were here, I would say, with the utmost respect, was a thoroughly bad argument a priori, he entirely shirked dealing with the actual count-up of heads, which would show that he was wrong and that fewer men have been employed since the Eight Hours Act than were employed before.

I am asked what would I do? What would the Liberal party do? [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I merely respond for them at the moment. What would the Liberal party do? They would first enter upon a real, comprehensive, fundamental scheme of national development; not sporadic, not a little bit here and a little bit there, no scratching of the surface; they would do what every wise business man does in his slack time; they would say, "We will perfect our machinery; we will perfect our organisation; we will set our house in order." It is well to get your house in order. Of course, I am told that works of that kind would need initial capital, but I would add at once that parsimony on occasions of this sort and in connection with work of this kind is not true economy. Economy is not to spend little, but to spend wisely. Anybody will say that it is economy to throw out a sprat whereby you may catch a salmon. I can see that hon. Members opposite have not even the courage to waste a sprat.

I am told also that there would be, perhaps, trade union restrictions. But my answer is this. Let the Government bring forward some real comprehensive plan and let them work it out with a view to avoiding conflict with trade union rules. In so far as they cannot avoid that, then, when their plan is complete, let them, as all statesmen should do, try and work a way out of the difficulty. But, above all things, let them give up doing nothing at all. That is what we complain of. [ Laughter. ] After all, it may seem a very light matter to this House, but I must remind the House that I for one come from a necessitous area, and, if others present saw the hungry, anxious faces all around you there and knew that there were a million of them throughout the country, then it would become not quite a joke. There has been seven years of it with nothing done and nothing even attempted. And when a party because they happen to be small come forward and make practical suggestions—[ Interruption. ] Somebody said "Fishing." I can say that most of the efforts on the other side have been fishing for wisdom in waters other than their own.

What about our roads? Is there nothing to be done there? In 1920, the number of motors on our roads was 500,000. In 1925 it was 1,500,000. In another five years it will be double that number. Within the last ten years our roads have been carrying ten times the weight that they previously carried. What is going to happen if national steps are not taken to increase their number, to broaden them, to strengthen them? Time is money. One knows that there will be strangulation of traffic. We are told already by some important person in connection with the Metropolis that there is £25,000,000 a year lost in the blocks of traffic. Is there nothing to be done in regard to that matter? Is it impossible to think out a scheme for mobilising some of this unemployed labour in this direction? In 1909 the Liberal party were in power. They established the Road Fund. That Road Fund yielded a revenue last year of £20,000,000 odd. It will yield a larger revenue as each year goes on. Is it not possible to raise a loan upon that revenue, restoring it first of all to the position which the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer upset. We have 1,000,000 hands ready to be put to work in order to do that which will have to be done later on, when, perhaps, labour will be less available and when we may have to call labour away from useful occupations.

Take our slums. Is there nothing to be done there? Do Members of this House who know the slum areas—there are some in my constituency—think any evidence is required to satisfy them that slums exist with all the inefficiency that they entail, and with all the discontent which the Communist likes? Our towns in these industrial areas were run up haphazard in a hurry, with tortuous streets, narrow, and up and down. During the War no slum clearance whatever was done. Has not that to be done at some time or other? Why not do it now, when you have 1,000,000 men unemployed. Take our canals. There were two Commissions, one in 1909 and the other in 1920, that gave detailed recommendations as to what could be done to bring our canals, that cheap method of transport, back into in- dustry again. In the meantime we are sitting on our oars, and Germany and France are rapidly developing their canals and, therefore, further handicapping us in the industrial competition. Cannot we do something there?

I can mention many other things. There are docks, the reclamation of waste land and afforestation. Why, if a proper, comprehensive scheme of this kind were started upon, labour mobilised directly for the purpose, trade union restrictions negotiated about and got over, what would be the result? A million men now full of disgruntlement and misery would have their minds refilled with gratitude and good humour, and this appalling unemployment, so terrible in our generation, might prove a blessing in disguise In the next. Its memory would have faded, but its monument would remain in our fine roads, in our growing forests, in our healthy towns, in our reclaimed waste land, and, above all, in a race saved from degeneracy by having rescued their fathers from a deteriorating process.

I would like to say that so far—[ Interruption. ] What is the matter? I am not aware that at any time when I speak in the House of Commons I try to say anything offensive. So far from the Government doing anything to spend the public money in the direction of relieving unemployment, they have gone out of their way to spend it in the other direction. Now I have mentioned three things. First, take the roads. The right hon. Gentleman, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, last year raffled that fund to the extent of £20,000,000.

You took two years to do the full mischief. Twenty odd millions would have given steady occupation to 130,000 men for a year, during which the benefit of their labour would have been shown in our good roads. These 130,000 men have, so to speak, been told "Stand idle, do not improve the roads, but draw pretty well the same amount of money in the form of benefit." That is what is being done. If the 130,000 men had been employed in making roads, as they would have been if the money had not been taken, they would not have been drawing benefit, and the State would have been saved the amount of money they have been drawing.

Take your sugar bounty! I am told, and, if I am wrong probably some hon. Member will give the exact figures, that the millions of money so provided so far from taking one driblet of men out of that million standing idle might have added a few to it. Take your famous coal subsidy, which I know more about because it affected my own district, of £23,000,000. What has that done? The bulk of it has gone to add to the profits of coalowners who did not want it. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] Yes, it has! A great deal of the rest has gone in enabling the foreigner to get his coal cheaper. Not one farthing of it has gone to the poor devils themselves. In its result, like the Eight Hours Act, it had so reduced the price of coal that it brought in the competition of Germany and Poland who undercut us, and now we are selling at a loss and the last stage is worse than the first. Wages are lower; unemployment is greater. That is the result of your £23,000,000. Our foreign markets have to a considerable extent shrunk. We sell 20 per cent, less now than we did before the War. It is true that we retain our proportion, but still the markets themselves have shrunk. [HON. MEMBERS: "Coal markets?"] Yes.

How are we going to regain what we have lost? I acknowledge at once that the root causes of unemployment are such that the healing processes of time are really what will do most good, but can we do nothing to hurry them on? I would again call attention to the speech made by the hon. Member for Aberdeen and Kincardine, East. This is the third time I have done so, because it interested me very much. He said, and I think quite truly, that we have to reduce the cost of production without reducing the wages of the men, that those wages are already too low, and that the home market cannot afford to have any cutting down in the purchasing power of the community. How are we to do it. Examine all the items that go into the cost of production, and where you can find one, that, so to speak, is squeezable, squeeze it, and do not wait. What is the main item in the cost of production that keeps up the price? Rates.

Rates and transport. Transport has reference to what I have said about the roads. Let us see what can be done in regard to rates. The Chancellor of the Exchequer used the words which I am about to quote. I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will like to hear his words quoted, because they are so beautifully expressed:

"Pound to pound local rates were a worse burden than the Imperial taxes. They vary capriciously between one part of the country and another. Unlike the Income Tax, they are levied whether there are profits or not. They penalise individually the producer in town or country, who has to use extensive premises. They fall most heavily on the basic industries which employ the largest number of workmen, and they fall with aggravating effect upon the struggling business whose plant, already rated to the full, is running perhaps at half or only quarter capacity. Our system of national taxation was reviewed and refined every year by Parliament, but the local rates were still levied on principles dating from the 16th century."

He might have added that they fall in the industrial areas upon those who are less able to pay, and they have very bad consequences and are hampering, so to speak, the man at the wheel. It is in these areas that the tools are handled by which our industrial prosperity is promoted, and if there are any sets of hands that ought to be left free to do the work of the nation, it is in these industrial areas. The right hon. Gentleman, whose language to me is always delightful, has expressed very admirably the position with regard to the rates, but if he will pardon me for saying so, in his case I would like to paraphrase what was said of Oliver Goldsmith:

"He speaks like an angel, but acts like a poor Poll."

Instead of carrying out his own words and unloading the rates on to the taxes, he never loses an opportunity of unloading the taxes on to the rates. It is obvious why he does that. He is responsible for the taxes. It is spectacular to stand up in this House, and say, "I have made a reduction in the Income Tax."

That redounds to the credit of his Government, and enables him to make fine speeches. We have seen him three or four times at the table, with his cherubic smile, and his self-satisfied appearance, which delights us all, but does he see what is happening in these hard-pressed industrial centres? The ratepayers may groan, in order that the Chancellor of the Exchequer may smile at the Table. What has he done? In 1925, he reduced the Income Tax by 6d. What immediately followed? A regulation extending the waiting period under the Unemployment Insurance Act to seven days, and rendering more rigid the discretionary power of giving benefits. That was immediately followed by the Economy Act to raid some of the funds of the approved societies. The Chancellor of the Exchequer raids whenever he can see anything about. Extended benefit, which was the means whereby a certain number of unemployed were paid. What happened there? The queues of people who were standing, so to speak, at the taxpayers' doors, outside the Employment Exchange, were transferred from the door of the taxpayer and made to stand outside the door of the guardians. That is what has happened.

Does the Chancellor of the Exchequer really appreciate what is happening in consequence of this heavy burden of rates in the necessitous areas? I come from one of them. The Poor Law system is almost breaking down, and I can tell him that distress warrants among the shopkeeper class are as thick as leaves in Vallambrosa. Still, we have this policy of enabling the Chancellor of the Exchequer to bring in triumphantly balanced Budgets, without any regard for the welfare of the country. Three things ought to be done in regard to the rates. (1) You should bring back the Poor Law to its original purpose, namely, that of providing for the destitute unemployed: (2) you should bring back the insurance scheme to a scientific actuarial basis, benefits being paid to those where the risk was calculable, namely, those thrown out of employment through the normal seasonal and other disturbances. The formula for that I cannot work out, but it could quite easily be worked out by experts. This great bulk of unemployed, this million of people, now raiding us like nightmare, should be transferred to the national purse. The money has to be paid somehow, and I would adopt the right hon. Gentleman's words and say, "Pound to pound," it is better that it should be put on the national purse than on the ratepayer's purse.

Why should poor areas like mine, whose sole offence is that they happen to be places where the national work is carried on; why should the workers and the rest of us, the professional people and others there be called upon to shoulder the burden in bad times, when in good times the whole country reaps the benefit of their efforts? I would remind the Chancellor of the Exchequer that of the £150,000,000 now paid by the ratepayers, he could relieve them of £50,000,000 a year in the way I suggest. Items taken off the cost of production would result in a stream of new orders, which would go far to bring back the vanished smile from the Chancellor of the Exchequer's face, in view of the new sources of revenue that would open up. Although it would be impossible to exhaust this subject, I think I have said enough to justify me in moving the Amendment, the effect of which is that the Government fail to appreciate the gravity of the situation and have made no real attempt to handle the big problems of which the man in the street is talking from one end of the day to the other.

I beg to second the Amendment.

After the very illuminating speech of my hon. and learned Friend, there is not much to say, but I should like to preface my remarks by expressing my sympathy with the Prime Minister, rather a strange thing, I presume, from these benches. He has been badly let down by his followers. The Prime Minister in 1923 really had a remedy, a definite remedy for unemployment, but he has never had a chance to carry that remedy into effect. I think it would be just as well, having regard to the recommendations which he made in his speech yesterday, to remind him and the House of the speech which he made at Plymouth on the 25th October, 1923. This is what he said:

I hope the hon. Gentleman will be fair. We never let you down over unemployment. We would not have let you down at all had you played the game. In 1924, the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition came into power, and what did he do with his positive remedy for unemployment? The figure then was 1,000,000, and, with the exception of a short period, that figure has remained at 1,000,000 ever since. Until the Liberal Government comes into power, it will still be 1,000,000.

What has happened in other countries? It is a little ironical when you come to think of them. Let us take Belgium. There is no unemployment in Belgium. Unemployment was rife at one time there, but to-day Belgium is a bee-hive of industry without a single man or woman unemployed. Yet this great country helped Belgium to attain that position, because it was this country that enabled Belgium to stabilise the franc. Belgium has got back to work, everything going full steam ahead, while this country is still burdened with 1,000,000 unemployed. Why is that? I will you why. They have used the remedy which we as a Liberal party propose to put into operation here; they have used the powers of the State in Belgium to get things going. They put their unemployed on to useful national work when industry could not absorb them. Instead of the Government being content to pay the dole, why do they not put hundreds of thousands of these men on to useful national work? That is not nationalisation. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for South Shields (Mr. Harney) was jeered at when he spoke of this. It is not nationalisation to put men on to useful national work. We do not suggest that we should nationalise industry, but we do suggest that these men, instead of receiving the dole, should be put upon useful national work. I am very glad that the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer is in his place. He has been more guilty than any member of the Government in putting men out of employment. The effect of the right hon. Gentleman taking £25,000,000 out of the Road Fund has been to put 80,000 men on to the unemployed list.

Well, I referred to this in the House before, and the right hon. Gentleman has never been able to disprove that statement. Fifty per cent. of the cost of road-making goes into wages. The right hon. Gentleman has taken £25,000,000 out of the Road Fund, and that means that he has taken £12,500,000 out of wages which would have been devoted to the employment of men on this great national work of road-making. The right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that that £12,500,000 would mean, at the rate of 10s. a day per man, 80,000 additional men employed per annum. Let them put that right instead of coming here with absurd suggestions for curing unemployment. Let them put something practical of that kind into operation. We had the other day a statement by the county surveyor of Lancashire, who said:

"The need for extensive widening of existing main roads in this country is most urgent and pressing. The growth of mechanically-propelled traffic during the past few years has been so great that most of our principal roads have become positively dangerous owing to their limited width. The traffic over the whole of these roads has multiplied by six between 1911 and 1925."

It is high time that the Government did something in a practical way to get these men, who are hiving round our villages, not knowing what to do, receiving the dole week by week, put on to useful work. I promised that I would not occupy the time of the House very long, and, with these few words, I have very much pleasure in seconding the Amendment.

:I have listened, as I am sure the whole House has listened, with very great interest to the hon. Members who moved and seconded this Amendment. The hon. and learned Gentleman who moved the Amendment has delighted us with the usual pleasant style, semi-conversational and semi-didactic, with which he spoke. If I may venture to impute any fault to him, it is that he ranged over so very wide a number of topics, without any very clear discussion of any single one of them, that I am in some difficulty as to what is exactly the main part of his speech to answer. The hon. Gentleman who seconded the Amendment lifted the cur- tain on the relations between the two sections of the Opposition that have subsisted in the past, showing that the Liberal party would still be ranged behind the Socialist party if certain things had not happened. And I somehow felt that we on this side of the House were acting as eavesdroppers, listening to the almost indecent recriminations between the two other parties, and over that I think it is better that we should draw a veil. I feel it is a little difficult to speak on this Amendment, because I know that later in the Debate the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) is expected to give us a great and splendid oration describing the merits of the Liberal industrial policy, and I hope we shall have from him a somewhat more lucid explanation of that policy than we got from the proposer and seconder of the Amendment.

As I understand it, the main purpose of this Amendment is to advertise the recently-published volume which is believed to contain the pure milk of the new Liberal doctrine, entitled "Britain's Industrial Future. Report of the Liberal Industrial Inquiry." This interesting work, after a long period of delay and disappointment, has at last been revealed to an expectant world. For a long time it was believed that we would have had it a year ago, but, for some reason or other an exceedingly long delay ensued. Now, after all the divergencies and differences have been satisfactorily adjusted, it has been finally produced, and it is offered to the public at what my more or less professional knowledge of these matters tells me is the moderate but uneconomic price of half-a-crown. I am not one of those who would venture in any way to disparage the great value of this Report. It would indeed be easy for an experienced scholar in the higher criticism to disentangle those parts of it which are the work of erudite and skilled economists from those passages which have been interpolated by the politicians in order to give some degree of vivacity to an otherwise somewhat monotonous compilation.

5.0 p.m.

But, apart from that, the names and standing of those who have contributed to it shows that the Report as a whole merits the attention of all serious persons who are interested in our politics. It is clearly, as a whole, the result of patient, earnest endeavour, and it represents a. great body of opinion which is of very great interest to all of us, since it has all the value that necessarily accrues to the work of such a distinguished number of publicists and economists. Moreover, it is very remarkable that this Report contains a great deal of matter which is common property, common to all those who are not definitely ranged behind the extreme Socialist banner. Many parts of it, I notice, seem to follow, without indeed any acknowledgment but none the less with remarkable closeness both of thought and in some cases of expression, a small volume which some of my friends and I were rash or venturesome enough to produce a few years ago. It has also had a reception from the Press and other quarters almost as cool as ours. However that may be, with the pardonable pride of an author, I am very glad to welcome imitations, however ungrateful, and to see that we have made at least some converts. I do not complain of plagiarism; I rejoice in it. It is a great pleasure to me to see the prospect of the forces of progressive Toryism being recruited from the thinning ranks of the Liberal party. I can assure them that the more of them who desert what Disraeli calls the frigid theories of a generalising age in order to range themselves behind the banners of the Conservative party, the more welcome they will be to all members of my party.

This Report, after all, does mark an important stage in political thought in one respect at least. It is true that in the main it contains many of the old-fashioned theories of Liberalism of the past. There is the curious anti-Imperial bias that remains. There is the strict and rigid adherence, with the full passionate devotion of bigots, to the rigid theories of Free Trade. But there is this change, that in the realm of industry, on the question of the duties of the State to the worker and the rights of the working classes, there is at any rate a final condemnation of the more cruel crudities of the Cobdenite theory. I think that instead of this Amendment, which in its wording is not only somewhat un-grammatical but indescribably futile, it would have been far better if an Amendment had been moved which declared that the House looked with satisfaction and pleasure at the declaration that the Liberal party had at last officially abandoned the doctrine of laissez faire — except indeed in regard to the tariff and those questions on which they still cling to their older heresies.

There is one other consideration that may present itself to the reflective mind. It is, I suppose, not unfair to assume that this report has been the result of the large financial support which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs has given from the fund which, if he does not own, he at least controls. In this case, as in all his operations, the usual large staff were employed, the large Secretariat which we always associate with his activities was got together, and a lavish expenditure of money was made with the object of pursuing this gigantic inquiry. I ask with some interest, what would be the feeling of those who have been the supporters of the party if they could see this last use to which their money has been put? I think it might be said without offence and injustice, that those noblemen and gentlemen of the Coalition era were persons who had a more lively sense of the rights of property than of its duties and responsibilities, that on the whole they might be ranged among the more reactionary and less scrupulous of the so-called representatives of the employing classes.

What then must they think of the Report's recommendations—the extension of municipal trading, the giving of legal powers to joint industrial councils, the extension of the Trade Board system, the development of public relief to a much greater extent, and, finally the crowning irony of all, publicity of accounts? It might be said by them, "Why have we been deceived? What a shame it is! Was it for this that great sacrifices were made? Was it for this that the coronets were so dearly purchased?" At the same time I suppose it is not for us to raise these questions. The philosophic observer might reflect with pleasure that here at last is an example of some good coming out of evil, and he might see with some satisfaction that these rivers of gold, corrupt or tainted though their origin may be, are now used to irrigate the pure philosophic field of economic study and political research. However that may be, I trust that this report will be studied and that those parts of it, and there are many, which are valuable, will be taken as a serious contribution to our political thought and that the good Tory tradition of taking the Whigs' clothes while they are bathing may be continued to its full extent if those garments are found of a satisfactory nature. I for one shall watch with complete equanimity the electoral nudity which may follow in the Liberal party.

The Mover and Seconder of the Amendment made a number of attacks on the record of the Government, partly because of sins of omission and partly because of sins of commission. The Amendment blames the Government for failing to appreciate certain conditions and difficulties. Whether "failing to appreciate "is used in the colloquial sense, that the Government do not understand them—are not conscious of them—or whether it is used in the stricter sense, that they are not able to weigh one against the other in its true and proper value, I do not know. If the Government are charged with not being aware of the many grave problems which face us now, that is a charge which must break down. Indeed the two hon. Gentlemen devoted their speeches to saying that these problems were patent to everyone, that they were obvious and clear. If the charge is that there is not a proper appreciation in the sense of weighing one against the other and knowing which at any particular moment is a most important question to be dealt with by legislative or administrative actions, then that is a charge which needs some examination, but I think in this case it can also be refuted.

I do not think I can be accused of having been, during the short time I have been a Member of the House, a slavish supporter of the present Administration. There have been occasions on which I have ventured to express views different from those which appear to be held by official quarters. But I do not remember a Speech from the Throne which has given me more pleasure than this one, and for this reason: If there has been one question upon which I have ventured to express my own opinion, upon which I have heard many interesting speeches from many quarters of the House, it is the question of the incidence of local taxation. The Liberal party may claim that it is well dealt with in their report. I may claim that the passages in their report follow almost exactly passages in my book; and I have no doubt that the Labour party, when this question is dealt with, will say, "This is what we have been telling you for years and years that you ought to do." But does not that show what a truly national Government we have, and could any better defence be put up for any administration which is preparing to do what all agree ought to be done?

While we have been talking the Government have, as they say in the Gracious Speech, actually been carrying on their investigations, and I feel certain that if they are able, in the time that remains in this Parliament, to deal on a wide and comprehensive basis with this great question, that achievement alone will make this Parliament memorable in the history of this country. But do not let us think that it is to be an easy task. There are immense difficulties. There are the difficulties of the actual form of local government. There are the vested interests—vested interests not only in the bad sense but in the good sense—local patriotism, the good forms of interests of which we are all aware in our constituencies; the position of smaller bodies that have done good work and do not like the prospect of being merged in greater organisations. There is an enormous jungle of difficulties to be cut through, not only with regard to the finance of any scheme of this kind but with regard to administration and legislation. When these have been cleared away, I do not think we could enter on such a course with greater hope and optimism than with the combined forces of the present Chancellor of the Exchequer and the present Minister of Health.

I trust that while the audacious axe of the Chancellor of the Exchequer may be employed on the larger trees that stand between us and clear country, the well-managed sickle of the Minister of Health will be able to clear away the tangle of undergrowth, of bramble and of briar. I can imagine no two Ministers who have such different but complementary virtues for this difficult task. We do not know what the Government plan is or how far their inquiries have gone. We do not yet know on what particular basis they propose to move. But we do know that if such a task is to be successfully completed it will need the combined effort of Members of all parties in this House. I am certain that all of us who have thought, spoken, or written on this question, will be willing, if that problem is to be dealt with, to deal with it in a statesmanlike spirit; and if we do that I think that this Gracious Speech, far from calling for condemnation by such an Amendment as that proposed, may be the preliminary of a very useful year of legislative, financial and administrative effort.

If the party below the Gangway needed any reason for this Amendment, I think the last speech has supplied it in full measure. I sat and wondered how a Member like the hon. and gallant Member for Stockton-on-Tees (Captain MacMillan), who has shown in the House such great qualities of thought and speech, could have delivered a speech such as. we have just heard. He reminded me of a passage from Omar Khayyam. We had in his speech, expressed in beautiful language, an absolutely fatalistic doctrine—the doctrine that nothing matters, that we cannot help it and that we had better let things go on as they are. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] Yes, and that is exactly the philosophy of Omar Khayyam. Let me quote for the benefit of hon. Members opposite, four lines which I think apply to the speech of the hon. and gallant Member:

"Myself, when young, did eagerly frequent

Doctor and saint, and heard great argument

About it and about, but, evermore,

Came out by that same door as in I went."

That is the philosophy of Omar Khayyam—that the world was made that way, that you cannot help it, that you should get under a tree with your favourite lady—

Yes: may I turn to the Seconder of the Amendment. He told the Labour party, with an admonitory gesture, that if we had been good boys the Liberals would have continued to support us. The Liberals themselves came to their decision and I hope they are proud of that decision. The result was not exactly good for us, but, unquestionably, it was much worse for them. I have no intention of dealing with the general subject covered by this Amendment. This is a Liberal day and I think the Liberals ought to have the lion's share of the controversy, but I want to deal with the special conditions of a trade in the North of England which is a greater exporting trade than any other in the country. You can include iron and coal if you like but no exporting industry in this country can compare in volume of transactions with the textile industry which is largely centred in Lancashire and Yorkshire. Of this great industry the Prime Minister said not a word in his speech. There was not a ray of hope. There was not a proposition of help. He simply ignored the problem which faces us in Lancashire and Yorkshire and on the fringes of the adjacent counties where the cotton and woollen trades have taken some hold.

It is very cold comfort to me as a Lancashire man to learn that somebody in the South of England has got employment. When I go home to the people, to whom I am proud to belong, I find there a body of the finest workers at their trade in the world, and what am I to say of their present position? No employer, no authority, will doubt my words when I say that in the textile trade in Lancashire and Yorkshire we have the finest workmen and workwomen in the world, and, yet, what is their condition at the present time? It is no good saying to them, "What does it matter, though you have not had a full week's wage for four or five years, since the Prime Minister says that somebody in London or in Bournemouth is getting full wages." They are a people with the gift of concise and forcible speech. It is not as beautiful as that of the hon. and gallant Member who has just spoken, but it is quite as expressive and the things they would say to me, if I made a statement of that kind to them, would not bear repeating. I wish they could express themselves directly to the Prime Minister. Perhaps it would shake the right hon. Gentleman out of his equanimity and out of the pleasant belief that you can allow things to go on, that nothing matters, that things will right themselves, that there is no other way but to allow laissez faire to the full extent—that only in such a way can you bring about a better state of things.

The worst of the position in Lancashire and Yorkshire, and particularly in Lancashire, is that the official figures give no indication of the suffering that is taking place. You may have weavers earning three-quarters or half the normal wage, or even less, but this fact is not recorded on the registers of the Employment Exchanges. These people go on, year in and year out, scarcely every knowing when they will get a full week's wage, but they are recorded as employed persons. These things ought to be known to the Government and the Government ought to have something to say about the position. Even if they cannot say much that is hopeful, they ought to state their intentions and how they propose to deal with this situation. One of the most serious factors in the position is that within the last few months, in both Yorkshire and Lancashire, in the woollen and cotton trades, grave developments have taken place. The Yorkshire employers have given notice to terminate their wage contracts—indeed, the wage contracts, if I am not misinformed, are now terminated. One does not know from day to day what is going to happen in this great industry in Yorkshire, while in Lancashire the employers have made the extraordinary demand for a huge reduction in wages and an increase in hours —save the mark.

The mills are working 36 hours a week, and, in the weaving sheds, the weavers are running three and sometimes two looms in place of four, and yet the employers demand increased hours of work. If working more hours will bring down their overhead charges, why do they not work the 48 hours? Why do they not set the machinery running to bring down the overhead charges? But we have Yorkshire faced with the cancellation of the wages agreement and the Lancashire operatives faced with the demand for longer hours and less wages, and the Government do nothing to cope with a situation which is full of danger. If they are doing anything, nobody in Lancashire appears to know about it. I will deal with the question of hours later, because on this question of hours we have to take into account the Washington Convention— the failure to ratify which is, in my opinion, as great a breach of a treaty as was the breach by Germany, and one for which no excuse could be offered by any reasonable man.

What have we had from the Government during the last three or four years for the textile trade? We had a fantastic burglary in London run by the Home Secretary. The right hon. Gentleman did not capture any documents, except what he called a "human document," a man named Anton Millar. Where is Anton Millar now? Does anybody know anything about him? Where are the great discoveries of that occasion? All we know is that Russian orders have decreased tremendously, and we see no corresponding advantage to the country. Quite recently, in a law case, a claim was made against a Lancashire firm for commission on an order from Russia. That order was for five million yards of cloth, and it was carried out in Preston, in my own constituency. It was literally a Godsend to the weavers of Preston to get an order of that magnitude. Instead of trying to develop markets of that kind, we have, by our fussy, silly attitude, and our burglaries tried to destroy the trade that we were getting. What is needed is a comprehensive Government inquiry into the woollen and cotton textile trade of the North of England. We ought to know exactly what has taken place in those trades, because there are many facts concerning them which are hidden from us and which ought to be made clear.

We hear remarks such as those made yesterday by the Prime Minister about the competition of foreign countries. The woollen trade in Yorkshire has been faced twice, recently, by demands dealing with wages. In one case it was alleged that Yorkshire employers could not continue to pay the wages because of competition from France. On the last occasion a strong point was made by the employers of the competition from Germany. I personally was responsible for getting the Yorkshire textile workers to send representatives to France and to make inquiries on the spot. We found that in the case of France the statements made were quite incorrect and that three or four factors had never been taken into consideration in the employers' argument about the wages. We found that there had been a far greater reduction in the hours of labour in the North of France than there had been in England. We found that the wages, in bulk, had increased certainly as much as in England and we found a higher standard of comfort than there was before the War. That is in the case of the North of France.

Not long ago I gave similar advice to the workers in regard to the statements about Germany, and I went with them to Germany. We found that the figures which had been given of textile workers wages in Germany were the figures of minimum wages, below which no wage should fall. It was on the basis of a minimum wage below which no wage should fall, that a demand was being made for the reduction of the wages of English workers. It is time we should know what we are talking about in these matters, and I would make a special request to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour to inquire into the question of textile wages in Germany and France—not the basic rates but the wages actually paid. If the basic rates are taken for our statistics—as I am afraid they have been taken, judging from what I heard the Prime Minister say—the calculations are 50 per cent, out, because the wages actually paid to woollen workers in Germany are nearly always twice as much as the basic rate. Accordingly, the statistical figures are only 50 per cent, of the real wages, and because of the importance of these points I press strongly on the Government the advisability of holding a public inquiry into the whole circumstances connected with the cotton and woollen trades. I repeat that these are greater exporting trades than any others in the country and it is vital that we should know where we are in connection with them.

A public inquiry would ease the public mind on the great problem which exists in Lancashire and that is as to what the employers expect before they will claim that the trade is a profitable one. There was a wild boom, a kind of "South Sea bubble" episode in the cotton districts after the War, when mills were sold for five and even 10 times their value. I have here the statement showing that one mill actually sold for 30 times its value. The public ought to know about these things and it is the duty of the Government to let them know. If this state of things be due to the War, what was promised to the men who went to the War? They were promised they would get a fair deal when they came back. Is it not your business to give them a fair deal? They have to be subjected to this and to the Government sitting supinely by. Is it a fact that the Ministry of Labour has simply become a branch office of the Federation of Employers? That apparently is what it has become in recent times.

Again, I think a public inquiry would do good as to our policy in dyestuffs. After the War was over, it was claimed that for the safety of this country the dyestuff industry should be treated as a key industry and remain, to some extent, under the guidance and control of the Government in order that we should never incur the same danger in another war as we did in 1914. If I remember rightly, into that dyestuff concern some £1,800,000 at least was paid. The Government had, not a majority of the directors, but representatives on the Board, but as time went along the idea of the country controlling this supply of dyes because of the danger of letting it go into private hands as before died away. I remember that the Labour Government were faced with the proposition of selling out their interest and handing over this dye concern, to enter into an agreement with the Germans to share the profits, and the Labour Government refused to do it. I want an inquiry to ascertain, not only what the Government paid for the shares, but the price at which they sold them, and whether it be a fact that the dyestuff industry in this country has entered into a contract with the Germans themselves and whether they are fleecing the great textile trades of the North of England owing to the policy of the Government at the beginning and the control of the industry by the German and by the British combine at the present time.

This is a very important matter for this country. There are men of great experience in the North of England who believe that the dyeing and finishing trades are throttling the cotton trade of the North of England. I do not say that that is a thing that has been definitely proved, but it is a thing that the Government ought to investigate and in regard to which we ought to know the facts. There was an extraordinary series of articles and letters in the "Manchester Guardian" quite recently, and here is one from a gentleman named Armitage, who is actually in the trade himself, and whose statement is that for equal finishes he had to pay l¾d. a yard in England and I¾ cents in America; that is, America with its high wages was actually doing the work for half price that the English combine with its German connections was doing. Would the House believe that the difference in those prices is more than is paid the workers for the spinning and weaving? That is the sort of case in regard to which we say to the Government that these things should be investigated, that we ought to know where we are. Why is it that this body of workers and employers, as fine in their trade as anybody in the world, are sinking to the position to which they have sunk?

It is not only the cotton trade. There was a speech made a few days ago by, I think, the Chairman of the Bradford Chamber of Commerce, in which he called attention to exactly the same problem in the woollen trade as that of which I have been speaking in the cotton trade, and these are not Labour men who are speaking but men on the opposite side of the table from us in negotiations in trade disputes. This gentleman said that between 1923 and 1927 there had been a decline of over 20,000 in the numbers employed in the wool textile industry. When you are talking about safeguarding and benefits, where is your trade where you put 20,000 workers on? I can show you one where you have lost them, and I can show you another where in actual working capacity you have lost more than 200,000, and that is what is going on to-day. I ask, therefore, that the Government should give us a public inquiry into these two trades, dealing with the whole system of manufacturing, finishing, dyeing and merchanting, in order that people may know why it is that the trade languishes, while the skill is there in its original method and habit.

There can be no question about the facts which I have given. We have poured out money like water in this dye industry, and I want to know whether that money has gone to feed people who are putting more men out of work than they have in their own industry themselves. I remember protesting when the discussions were on in this House about the evident opinion of the Government that dyeing and finishing was all the textile industry. It was evident that the President of the Board of Trade either did not know any different, or did not show that he knew any different. Dyeing and finishing, important as they are, are comparatively small branches of the industry, and the real industry is spinning and weaving, and particularly weaving, and it is just these branches that are suffering the worst.

To turn to the hours of labour, I have already expressed my opinion of a demand for an increase in the hours of labour when the present hours permitted are not worked, but does one wonder what has taken place after all? The Federation of Employers make a demand that the Washington Convention shall not be ratified; the Government are making at the time speeches apparently favourable to ratification; the Home Secretary has a Bill which gives 48 hours per week to women and young persons; the employers in Lancashire put down a claim for 52¼ hours; we do not get the Factories Bill in the King's Speech; and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour goes to Geneva and throws over the Washington Convention. Is there any wonder when we say that the Ministry of Labour has become simply a branch office of the Federation of Employers? It answers to the crack of the employers' whip, and the fact that we signed the Convention and are bound to it by honour should be as good as the word of those with whom we pretended, during the War, we could never have anything to do again because they treated treaties as scraps of paper.

I will give a short sketch of what has taken place with regard to the Washington Convention. The House will perhaps understand my feelings, even if it does not agree with me, when I say that, in my opinion, our dealing with the Washington Convention has been as bad as anything the Germans or any other Government ever did with regard to a Treaty. The hundreds of thousands of working men who went to the War believing in treaties have found that their own Government are not a scrap better than any other and that a treaty to them is nothing. They respect it, if they want it, but if they do not want it, they do not respect it. First of all, are we bound in honour? In the Treaty of Peace itself you have definitely laid down certain broad principles as to how workers should be treated in future, and the adoption of an eight hours day or a forty-eight hours week is laid down as the standard to be aimed at where it has not already been obtained. Can anything be plainer than that in a treaty? Is there any honourable man in this House who, having signed that in a private capacity with another man, would not honour it? No private man would refuse to honour a pledge of that kind, but the Government definitely, and, I think, finally, have declined to honour their word.

When the first Conference was held in Washington, the representatives not only of the workers but of the Governments and of the employers agreed to the Convention, which was itself largely the result of a compromise agreed to by those who would have had the Convention infinitely stronger, because the British representative said that unless certain things were given he could not guarantee that the British Government would accept the recommendations. I have said in the House, and I say it again, that if those of us who were acting for the Labour side had ever dreamed that we were dealing with employers and Governments who would not keep their word, we would not have wasted our time, but we took the employers and the Government to be men of honour. We have been betrayed. In spite of all the Prime Minister's equanimity yesterday, I want to say quite bluntly that we have been betrayed, and the word of the Government is not worth the paper on which it is written. We came back, and what took place? This is the country that has held back the ratification, and no other. We, who had most to gain by it and who ought to have been the first to ratify it and to encourage others to ratify it, have been the country that has kept others back, and if the Parliamentary Secretary and the Prime Minister believe that they are looked upon as men of honour and of strict probity on the Continent, let them get the idea out of their heads. As a matter of fact, they will find, if they make inquiries, that their honour stands very low on the Continent and that people object to the British Government posing as a superior body and talking about others not carrying out their regulations when the British Government themselves are further behind carrying out their promises than any Government in Europe.

It is humiliating to one who believes in British honour to speak with men who are accustomed to attending the International Labour Conferences. I remember on one occasion even trying to find an excuse for the dilatory policy of Britain. I suppose it is a fact that I cannot divest myself of the knowledge that I am an Englishman and that I would like to find an excuse. The response was " vous autres Anglais, vous avez un toupet." If the Parliamentary Secretary requires a translation, he will have to get it from a slang dictionary, but it means, "You English; you have the most extraordinary cheek." It is perfectly true. Over and over again our representatives who refused to ratify the Convention have gone and spoken to people who were ready to ratify it and said, "We cannot do it because we cannot trust you to carry it out." Poland, with more liberty and the Washington Convention! Czechoslovakia, with the Washington Convention! France—we have held France back. Here I have a word to say about what the Prime Minister said. We who are supposed to be the premier nation of Europe, are the nation that is helping the worst type of employers to break down conditions in industry. There can be no doubt as to what people think, and are justified in thinking. In 1921 we presented a Bill to the House. Had it not been for our friends below the Gangway we should have got that Bill through to ratify the Washington Convention. Where are all these difficulties which the Prime Minister talks about? People who love the League of Nations and believe in it are in despair. What is the difficulty for which we cannot come to an agreement? We had a meeting in Berne and we were told that other difficulties cropped up, but the present Government had a conference in London; they made speeches, and the Prime Minister said:

I have heard with some degree of amusement the statements that have been made in this Debate about the way the country is getting on to its feet. I heard a great deal about safeguarding. I wonder if the House knows that the exports from this country in 1924 were greater than they were in 1927, and that in 1924 the exports were greater than they ever were in the history of the country. Vet the Minister tells us how prosperous the country is becoming.

The right hon. Gentleman is quoting me. If instead of giving figures which take no account of the fall in values he will have regard for that fall, he will find my figures are correct. I dealt with volume, not with fallacious quantity.

I have taken my figures from a respectable Conservative journal. I always rely on Conservative journals, because they are just as immaculate as the Prime Minister's promises, and we rely upon them in exactly the same way. The Government that was in office in 1922 had, I suppose, the same standard of value as that of 1924—[HON. MEMBERS: "No!"]—and the Government after the gold standard had a higher standard of value, had they not? Here are the figures. In 1921 the exports were £941,000,000; in 1925, £927,000,000; in 1926, £779,000,000; and in 1927, £832,000,000. That is, there was £109,000,000 difference between 1924 and 1927. You can juggle with these figures as you like, and you can talk about extra values and all the rest of it, but you cannot juggle that £109,000,000 away. Further, though you are talking about quantities, another strange thing is that you think that, with your safeguarding policy, you are preventing imports and extending exports. As a matter of fact, the imports for 1924 were less than in any year afterwards; exports were greater and imports were less in 1924 than they have been since. Where is all the progress that has been claimed? If you talk about values, one side balances the other.

The real truth of the matter is that we have in this country, in spite of the complacency of the Prime Minister, a volume of human suffering that is incalculable. We have a Government sitting evidently with the idea not of laissez faire but of laissez aller . Mr. Micawber was, at any rate, jolly when he was waiting for something to turn up, but the Prime Minister's dirge yesterday was in the nature of waiting for something to turn up, and it was very dismal at that. In 1924 wages went up half a million a week; they were down in 1926 and 1937; they were down in the years before 1924. In 1924 the number of people going to the guardians went down; in 1925 they went up. In 1924 we exported more than we have done since, and imported less. These are the facts, and in the face of facts like these the Government comes, without either programme or policy, and tells us just to wait until the clouds roll by, for there is a silver lining to the clouds. This is the kind of thing we get, and all the time people are suffering. I earnestly plead with the House to support me in the endeavour to get a full and comprehensive inquiry into the circumstances surrounding our two great textile trades in Lancashire and Yorkshire in order that the people may know what the facts are. I shall certainly go into the Lobby in favour of the Amendment.

My right hon. Friend who has just sat down has used some extraordinarily striking facts and figures with regard to conditions in the two textile trades. He has certainly made a prima facie case for an investigation into the facts. When we consider the condition of those trades, it does demand some inquiry on the part of the Government of the day. With reference to the Washington Convention, I would like to say only one word. There is no doubt that the impression in Geneva is that the great failure there is our failure. That is the general impression of all the nations which were associated in the discussion of that great problem. The hon. Gentleman who spoke on the other side has written a book on most of these problems, and I think the House has a right to expect from him rather an important contribution on the subject. Instead of that, he wasted his time in rather silly jeers at all and sundry in this House. There is one invitation that he gave to which I am sure the Chancellor of the Exchequer will be glad to hear I am not going to respond. He invited us to explain at great length details of our projected reports. If I did, it would take as long as M. Poincare took to explain his Budget in the French Parliament. I can only call his attention to two or three of the proposals which are referred to in this Amendment.

6.0 p.m.

Before I do so, I should like to say a word about the remarkable speech delivered by the Prime Minister yesterday. It was remarkable for two things. It was remarkable for the omissions when he came to state the position of trade in this country. We are never going to remedy the evils of the present situation, or to help trade to get out of its trouble, unless we can honestly and courageously face the facts. I read the speech of the President of the Board of Trade on Friday and I think his statement of the trade position exceedingly fair, and a very accurate one. His statement was that there was a slow and steady improvement, but that there was no prospect of a boom. I think that that is what most of us, who have made a study of the situation, accept, and that when you come to Heal with remedies it ought to be upon that basis; but when the Prime Minister makes a statement which simply dwells upon aspects of the situation which can cheer, and ignores others, it shows that the Government do not realise what the problem is. I will show him three things which he ignored—three fundamental facts which are disconcerting the situation, in spite of the slow and steady improvement which has gone on with an interregnum in 1925–26. There was rather a definite setback in those two years. The slump reached bottom. In spite of that improvement we never reached 80 per cent, of our pre-War export trade. I quite accept the correction of the President of the Board of Trade with regard to values and quantities, and I am proceeding now on the basis of quantities, which, I agree, is fairer on the whole, although there is something to be said about the drop in prices, because you never have a drop in prices simultaneously with a boom. It is one of the first indications of a great boom that there is an improvement in prices, and I do not believe, as a matter of fact, that you will ever get a real trade boom in this country until this drop in prices throughout the world has been arrested. However, that is another matter. I am going to deal with this matter upon the basis of quantities. I think the President of the Board of Trade will agree with me that never since the War have we reached 80 per cent, of our pre-War export trade. That is a very serious fact. We have an increased population. If we had gone on as we were going on from, say, 1900 to 1913—any period you like—we should now at that rate, have been at somewhere about 130 per cent, perhaps of the 1913 figures, and we are at only 80 per cent.; so we are nearly 50 per cent, below the figure which we would have reached if the growth had been purely normal. That is a very serious fact, and it is no use pretending it is not. It is a fact which applies to all sorts of Governments; I am not putting this as a criticism of any particular Government but as one of the facts we must really take into account.

What is the second fact? The Prime Minister only glanced at it. The second fact is that all our great staple industries are in a bad way. The Prime Minister only just glanced at that. He did not even mention agriculture, which is the largest industry, in a review of the industrial situation of the country. That is a very remarkable omission. He did refer to the mining industry, but he did not give the actual facts there. The serious fact there is this, that we have an actual drop of, I think, 30,000,000 in the tonnage output as compared with pre-War. I have the figures here if anyone challenges them, but I do not want to take up the time of the House by reading a list of figures. But if we take Germany, France and Belgium, we find in those three coal-producing countries that the output has gone up as compared with pre-War, in spite of oil and water-power and coal-saving appliances. In only two countries has it gone down. I beg pardon, there is a third. The only three countries where the output has gone down are Great Britain, Poland and Russia. In the other great coal-producing countries of the world, including the United States of America, in respect of which there may be special reasons, the output has gone up.

The third fact which is a very serious one concerns the trade balances. I am not sure that my right hon. Friend is altogether right in quoting actual values of sales of goods from this country. If you took 1920, the actual export trade, as far as values are concerned, was the highest we have ever had, but if you take the actual quantities we had at that time hardly reached 60 per cent, of our pre-War figure. Therefore, it is not a fair figure to take, though you must take prices into account. But a more serious factor is the trade balances, because prices apply not merely to exports but to imports as well. Let me give these figures. I will begin with 1922, which was the figure given by my right hon. Friend. I am talking of the visible trade balance, the adverse balance, that is, the balance of imports over exports. In 1922 it was £171,000,000; in 1923, £195,000,000; in 1924, £324,000,000; in 1927, £392,000,000. The President of the Board of Trade has been revising the standard of invisible exports. If he had taken the standard of invisible exports which had been accepted up to—when?—1926, I think, I forget when the revision took place but it was quite recently, the revision has taken place during the lifetime of this Government—if you take the standard which had always been accepted before that there would have been an alverse trade balance during the whole lifetime of this Government, with the possible exception, perhaps, of about £10,000,000 in the first year. That is on the old basis. [ Interruption. "] Certainly. I can give the actual figures to the right hon. Gentleman. I am saying, if you take the old basis, but he has revised it. He says, "We have not made sufficient allowance for tourists coming here, and all sorts of services we are rendering, and for the sums of money we are receiving in respect of interest," and he has revised the standard.

I make this admission, that I think the old figures were upon too low a basis and that there was justification for revision, but he has re-revised the figures this year. The figures have been upon a revised basis in previous years, but he has been going into it again, and every time the adverse balance is against us there is a revision of invisible exports. If you take the first three years, 1922, 1923 and l924, there was, on the average, even upon the present basis, a balance in our favour of £148,000,000. Take the last three years, the three years which the Prime Minister has been boasting so much about. The balance is down to £47,000,000, even upon a revision of the invisible exports. Those facts ought not to be ignored. One of the advantages we had pre-War was that every year we advanced £200,000,000 or £300,000,000 out of our surplus to foreign countries, to the Dominions and to the Colonies, and those investments came back in orders for goods. It was our way. That is passing away. We have not got it any longer, and the United States of America is coming in with its advances and is taking away a good deal of the trade. It is no use ignoring these facts in an honest review of the situation. I have never thought the position was irrecoverable. On the contrary, my own opinion is that if certain things are done we shall not merely recover our old position but we can forge ahead beyond anything we ever achieved in the past. That is my honest opinion, after going into the matter, but I do not believe we shall be able to do it if we are always persuading ourselves that the position is all right as it is, and that we need not trouble about it, but can leave it to luck.

There was a second rather remarkable admission by the Prime Minister, which made his speech quite memorable from another point of view. It was an admission of the great advantage of having a Free Trade country. He said wages in this country are twice as much as they are in the protectionist countries of Europe, with the exception of Germany, in respect of which they are a third better. That is an admission which will be a very useful one when controversies come along, as they will later on. When you come to the Prime Minister's summary of the situation, what was it? It is all right; it is perfectly true that the north is becoming derelict, that there is great distress there, that unemployment runs up to unexampled percentages after seven years, but though the north is tumbling down the south rises, so therefore it is all right. That is not enough. After all, the north, which includes Lancashire, to which he did not refer in his list of areas which are affected, though it is very badly affected by the present depression, has been the great productive, enterprising, pioneer province of England, and to let it down, with its great virile population, and to assume that things are all right because the south is getting up, that really is not worthy of a Government which represents north and south and has got a responsibility for seeing that each and all, in every quarter of these islands, gets every help that a Government can give to extricate the country from its difficulties.

I am sorry I must say a word about my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, and I am equally sorry that, for reasons he explained to me, he is not present. I am afraid that is his misfortune. I am very sorry that he should have used scornful and derisive language about an investigation which has been conducted by some of the most eminent political economists in this country, who have devoted the best part of two years voluntarily to investigating the industrial difficulties of this country and writing a Report which every political opponent except himself has recognised as a singularly able document. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, even when he criticised it in his speech at Birmingham, quite fairly recognised that it was a very thoughtful document. If in any assembly of political economists in this country, of real students of political economy, you were to ask who are the ablest and most distinguished political economists in this country to-day, at least three of these names would come up. I will tell the right hon. Gentleman more. If in any assembly of students of political economy in the world that question were asked, at least two of these names would rank in any list of great international names in the study of political economy. I do not think it is worthy of his position that when an investigation of this kind is made by men of that rank and status he should use the exceedingly offensive language which he did use about them. I should have thought they had earned the gratitude of the country by devoting their time to the investigation.

What was it the right hon. Gentleman had as an alternative? He used strong language about hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite when he talked about some remedy suggested by them. He called it atrociously abominable. I do not agree with that. [ Interruption. ] Safeguarding. [ Interruption. ] That is exactly what he meant, but he used language of that kind, and I think he referred to the Report, a very able Report, as a debased weakling. That is because it is expressed in calm and reasoned terms. What was his remedy? I listened very carefully to his speech, and really he did not put. forward any suggestions. He used one phrase, very vaguely, without explaining it, which referred to nationalisation, but that was because the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Burnley (Mr. A. Henderson) had already done so. No doubt after the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Burnley had explained nationalisation so very emphatically and loudly, the Leader of the Opposition felt that he must not be outdone, and so he pitched his declaration on nationalisation an octave higher. This is really a problem which affects the country as a whole, and anybody who takes time to examine it calmly and quietly and gives the best of his mind to it is entitled to be treated with respect by any party in this House.

I come to another question. I shall not attempt to summarise the proposals of the gentlemen to whom I have referred, because they have done that in exceedingly able language. They have put forward concrete proposals for examination, and when the time comes for action, I would commend to hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite the advice given by the ablest and most brilliant journalist, in an independent Sunday newspaper, who advises them to adopt those proposals and put them into operation. I think that was very good advice. I will dwell upon one or two only of those proposals. I am going to put first the suggestion about an economic general staff. What does that mean? It means practically the same thing with regard to trade and industry as has been done in this country before; I think it was initiated first by Lord Balfour when he was Prime Minister as regards defence. There you had three Departments, each dealing separately with various problems of defence. A body was brought into existence consisting of representatives of each of those Departments, who met together and co-ordinated the defence of the country and investigated the whole of the problem. There is no doubt at all that when the test came the work of co-ordination amid investigation done by that body, consisting of Ministers sitting with experts from their own Departments and from outside, all sitting together to consider the problem, produced valuable results when the time for action came. I understand that the Government are going to set up a body of the same kind to deal with trade and industry. This is not a task for one Department. That is one of the difficulties which anybody who has been Prime Minister knows very well. The Chancellor of the Exchequer takes one aspect of a question and the President of the Board of Trade takes another. The Secretary for Mines and the Labour Minister view the subject from different aspects, and the Minister of Health has another view of the question. The President of the Board of Agriculture has also got his opinion on the subject. The first suggestion is that all these Departments should constitute some kind of general staff, which should survey the whole problem of industry and try to work together.

What does it matter. That is the sort of silly interruption we get. We cannot approach a great problem in this House in the spirit of children saying, "You have stolen my marbles." I should have thought that if there ever was a non-controversial suggestion, this is one. It is something which has been done by Ministers with regard to some particular and specific problem, but it has never been done before by the constitution of a body which sits permanently to survey these matters as a whole. I should think what I have suggested is a matter which the Government might easily take into account, because it does not in the least offend against the principles of any political party.

I come to a second suggestion, and here I should like to press upon the Government the importance of doing something to lighten the burden of the rates. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for South Shields (Mr. Harney) has already dealt with that part of the problem with considerable ability, and that renders it unnecessary for me to dwell at any length Upon that subject. There is no doubt at all that the heavy rates are a serious handicap upon the industries of this country. The Prime Minister called attention yesterday to the fact that industries are passing from the North to the South, and one reason for that is undoubtedly that industry has become almost impossible in the North, because of the heavy pressure of the rates. Here are some figures which were given in an investigation conducted by the Board of Trade, which, I hope, will report before Doomsday. In that investigation some very striking facts were collected.

Here is one fact and I could give many others, but I think this one will do as an illustration. It declares that the cost of rates per ton of crucible steel on actual output was on 30th June, 1914, 3s. per ton, and in June, 1924, the cost was 21s. per ton. That shows that the cost is seven times more than it was in 1914. No trade or industry can go on bearing such a burden as that when it has to compete with continental furnaces which are paying nothing like that amount in rates. We must remember that the loans of Germany were practically wiped out by the period of inflation, and that makes a considerable difference. We are now competing with foreign mills which have not anything like one-third of the burdens which are crippling our own mills. When you are starting a new industry one of the first things you inquire about is, what are the rates in that particular locality? I am very glad to hear that the Government mean to deal with that problem.

I understand that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will have something to say on that subject, and I am sure he will give great satisfaction to those engaged in industry if he can indicate that something is going to be done by the Government to grapple with that problem and reduce the rates, more especially in the distressed areas of the great iron and steel industries. I am going to press upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer what I rather indicated in my former speech on the Address. I want the right hon. Gentleman to consider the question of widening the area of assessment in order to find new sources of revenue. I know he is very ingenious at that sort of thing, and he has exercised his ingenuity a good deal in doing that with reference to Imperial taxation. I do not see why he should not do the same thing in reference to local rates, because in doing so he would not be transgressing any of the principles which he has advocated to the House.

There is no doubt at all that increased values created by the industrial community now very largely escape local taxation altogether, and by taxing those values the right hon. Gentleman could bring in a very considerable revenue which would reduce the burden of the rates upon industry. I will give an illustration. I would like the Chancellor of the Exchequer to travel along one of those new roads which he did so much to delay, and which have been recently opened. Take the one opened by the Prime Minister the other day along the Kingston Road. That was a district in which there was no building, but since that new road was constructed opening up the whole of that area, new buildings are springing up like mushrooms. In a very short time you will have villages there and small houses, and I have no doubt at all that the value of the land in the immediate vicinity of that road will not merely be doubled or trebled but I should say it will become ten times more valuable than it was before the road was opened. Who has created that value? It has been created by the expenditure of public money raised by the Exchequer and spent by the Minister of Transport. I think that land ought to contribute in proportion to its value, and some of the actual value created by the money spent should go back to the Exchequer or else it ought to go to the relief of the local rates.

I should have thought that was a perfectly fair proposition, and I have heard it advocated by Conservatives as well as Liberals. I remember that there was a Committee appointed by the Unionist Government—I think it was in the 'nineties. They appointed a Committee to investigate that matter, and the majority of that Committee reported in favour of a tax of this kind being imposed. Take places like Golder's Green, where an enormous amount of money has been spent in opening up land which previously had only an agricultural value. That land went up in value almost one hundred-fod. The railway companies have to pay the rates in full, but those who are benefiting by the increased value of the land in that district are paying nothing at all. I think that is very unfair. I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer, instead of taking the Imperial revenue in order to reduce the rates, should see whether he cannot get a contribution in the way I have suggested from the increased value of the land.

With regard to the mines, I do not propose to dwell upon that subject, because it has already been discussed at considerable length. I agree with what has been said on that subject. My view is that unless you do something to reconstruct the mining industry on a business footing you will always find it in a depressed condition. I read with great delight the speech of the hon. Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Boothby) on this subject. I know that his colleagues have fallen upon him and torn him into red ribbons since he made that speech. [An HON. MEMBER: "Not all!"] Perhaps I should say two or three of the least intelligent. They have been very fierce with regard to him. In the main, I rather agree with him, and, at any rate, he made a contribution which I think is very well worth considering. At the present moment there is no doubt at all that the mines of this country are in a very bad way. Another thing which anyone can see for himself, if he will only look into it, is that, if you are going to leave it to the colliery owners to reconstruct, they will never do it. Unless the Government take it in hand, and use the authority of the State to compel them to take the initiative and to act, the condition of things will go from bad to worse.

I come, lastly, to a matter to which I have referred repeatedly in this House, namely, agriculture. Why do I say that agriculture is an essential part of the consideration of the whole of this problem? One reason is that it is the largest industry. A second is that, as long as it is depressed, the purchasing power of the community is depressed; and the third reason is this: If you look at our imports from foreign lands and from countries across the sea, our heaviest imports are in respect of food and in respect of wool, timber and other commodities which very largely could be produced in this country. It is the only industry in which we are not holding our own in our own markets. If the Prime Minister were to take the trouble to ask every week for the returns of the Smithfield markets, he would find that they are a real study. He would find that they show every week that three-fourths of the meat, the butter, the eggs and so on that are sold in London come from across the seas. Again, agriculture is the only industry in the case of which increased production would find a market at our own doors.

We have made our proposals with regard to agriculture. I know quite well that it is too much to ask the Government of the day, with the support that they have in the country, to accept proposals which we put forward, and, therefore, I am going to press them from another point of view. If they cannot accept our proposals, I earnestly ask them to take the problem of agriculture seriously and in earnest, and to tackle it, not on a small, but on a large scale. They are going to propose, as I understand, two remedies. The first is a reduction in rates, and the second is some proposition with regard to credits. The latter they have taken two or three years to consider, but I am assuming that they are going to do something. It will not, however, be of the slightest use unless they go far beyond that. Hon. Gentlemen representing agricultural constituencies know that very well, and some of them, and especially their supporters, feel that there is no real remedy for agriculture except the imposition of some duty upon foreign imports. They know, however, that in this country that cannot possibly be carried through to an extent which would be in the least helpful to agriculture; it cannot be done. Therefore, I am going to ask the Government really to tackle the problem, and to tackle it seriously.

Agriculture is in a bad way. Agriculture is in a worse way in this country than in any other country in the world. It is passing through a period of depression everywhere, but, if you look at some of the agricultural countries of Europe, the output per 100 acres is very much higher than it is here. I am going to ask the Government to consider what the real difficulties are. Their remedies do not touch them. The first is that one of the most important partners in agriculture can no longer contribute to the partnership a sum which is adequate to the performance of its task. That is the owner partner. He cannot do so because of taxation and for other reasons. The burden of buildings is upon him; the burden of drainage is upon him; the burden of all the permanent charges on the land is upon him; and he has completely broken down as a source of income and of subscription for. that purpose. That is one of the difficulties, and it has to be dealt with: and, whether it be dealt with in the way that we propose or in some other way, until it is dealt with the question of agriculture will never be settled. Rates may be reduced. It will come, perhaps, to just a few millions a year, but that does not solve the difficulty. Credits may be given, but they will not come anywhere near helping the farming community unless that first fact be faced, that one member of the partnership, who was the greatest capitalist of all is exhausted. The second point is that you will never do it until you give the second partner the assurance that, whatever he does in the way of expenditure, skill, or labour, he will reap the advantage of it. Those two things are absolutely essential if you are going to deal with this problem.

I have to make way for the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who is to reply, and I do not pretend that I can deal with any one of these proposals in the time at my disposal. I put forward certain suggestions to the Government, but I am not going to engage in what I heard yesterday—a sort of bragging competition between the two leaders as to electoral results. [ Interruption. ] All that is beside the mark here. It is a very important question in the country, but we have to deal with a Government that has made up its mind to be here for another 18 months. It is to them that I appeal to handle this situation. Whichever Government comes in as the result of the next general election, unless they take adequate steps, bold steps, for dealing with two or three of our big staple industries on a great scale, it will never be possible to enable this country to maintain the proud position which it held in the past. On the other hand, if that be done, I believe it is within the capacity of our people to go beyond anything they have ever achieved.

The right hon. Gentleman has made a noteworthy and a weighty contribution to the discussion on this Amendment, and no one in any part of the House has the slightest reason to complain of what he said, or of the amount of thought and labour of mind which lies behind much that he has said. I have to deal with the Amendment of Censure which is upon the Paper, and I must begin by asking the House, which is still under the influence of the right hon. Gentleman's powerful and seductive eloquence, to remember how very skilful my right hon. Friend is in the art of painting word pictures, and how, by his skill in that art, he so holds the attention and attracts and engages the fancy of his listeners, that one would almost feel that the only things that matter are the pictures which he paints, and that beside them and beyond them all is void and dark.

My right hon. Friend—although we sit on opposite sides of the House, I hope he will not consider that I am violating Parliamentary tradition if I so refer to him—has painted for us two pictures, the first a very dark picture, and the second a very bright picture. The one was a picture of the many evils which exist in this country at the present time, and the very grave causes of anxiety which press upon all who study our affairs—the picture of our export trade not having yet recovered its pre-war ascendancy; the picture of our basic industries lagging behind in the march; the picture of the trade balance, about which there is a great deal to be said, but about which by no means everything that can be said is satisfactory. These were the elements, the pigments which he used in constructing this gloomy picture; and he proceeded to blame the Prime Minister because, in his speech yesterday, he had asserted some of the other facts and considerations which should be borne in mind. But it is just as great a mistake to try to approach our present difficulties by merely marshalling the undoubtedly disquieting facts which everyone sees, as it is to approach them only upon the basis of what is consolatory and affords renewed confidence. We so often hear this stream of pessimism which is put forward from so many quarters, and which goes far beyond the actual facts, which flows out upon us day after day; and foreigners, too, hear it so often, and it so often conveys to them the wrong conclusion that that is the whole picture. When we see that wrong conclusion being drawn, it is the absolute duty from time to time and at rare intervals of the head of the Government to correct an unduly exaggerated pessimism by asserting, in the most calm and moderate language, but backed by unanswerable facts and figures, some of the contrary elements in the case.

When the right hon. Gentleman left the dark picture of our ruined agriculture, our lagging basic industries, our defective trade balance, and our million unemployed, which was also dwelt upon by his lieutenants, he came at a sweep to the bright one. He actually avoided any reference to the dawn rising over the hills—[ Interruption ]—though one must not expect any one particular metaphor to work more than reasonable overtime. His picture was like the dawn, and it was a yellow dawn. When all is said and done, the difficulties and anxieties by which we are oppressed are all to be relieved, grave as they are, painted in their most serious and darkest hue, if we will only adopt the recommendations of the Yellow Book. I greatly respect any set of political controversialists who have the courage, the industry and the mental energy to try to think out their problems, and to bring them down to black and white in the compass of a volume, and I am bound to say, though I have not yet had an opportunity of reading it and refreshing myself from these life-giving streams of inspiration, the printing of which is to change our position from our present hopeless march downhill to the abyss to this steady upland progress to the mountain tops—though I have not yet had this great advantage and pleasure which I certainly by no means mean to be denied, nevertheless I have heard enough of the comments that have been made upon it, and of the extracts that have been taken from it, to say that I entirely agree with the right hon. Gentleman in the very sharp and salutary corrective which he administered to the Leader of the Labour party for dismissing all this serious work and confining himself almost entirely to flapdoodle.

When we come to consider the remedies which have been mentioned, everyone will see that each of them would take a whole Debate even to discuss. The hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for South Shields gave us his remedies in a general form. "What we wanted was a real, comprehensive, fundamental scheme of national development, not sporadic, not superficial; what every business man does in his spare time. He sets his house in order. He throws a sprat to catch a salmon." Only respect for his Leader perhaps led him to avoid the metaphor of laying a mangold-wurzel to catch a pheasant. Before I analyse the hon. and learned Gentleman's remedies, I must mark one unconscious inconsistency, and perhaps all the greatest inconsistencies are unconscious. He ridiculed the policy of safeguarding by pointing out that any drop—such was his analogy —saved by safeguarding, poured into that little bucket, was only taken away from the general pool, and then quite oblivious of his lack of logic, he proceeded to advocate a great scheme of State works at the national expense without in the slightest degree recognising that such works would take away from the limited fund of capital and credit which is available for the normal enterprise of the country. Everyone ought to realise that the sum of human effort and enterprise and good will which is available and which is expressed in terms of capital and credit is a limited fund, and, if it is diverted to gigantic schemes of State works and tremendous road programmes on which the unemployed could be employed in large masses —if vast sums are to be spent in that way—it can only be by diverting the expenditure of those sums from the channels into which they would be directed by the infinite variety of private enterprise. I do not believe you are going to succeed in solving this problem of unemployment by those means.

The right hon. Gentleman was much more definite in his remedies, and he proposed, among others, an economic general staff. That is a proposal that is always worthy of consideration, but the mere setting up of bodies which have no executive power to browse about and brood over vast funds of information which are already available from other directions may attract people in the first instance by its mere statement but may only have the effect of adding to the confusion that arises when there is too much top hamper in the national or governmental organisation. After all, responsibility for taking wise decisions in the whole field of trade and industry and finance, and also the responsibility of preventing the taking of unwise decisions over that whole field, rests with the Government of the day. They have at their disposal all the best information that can possibly be obtained, and in order that the specialised study of these topics connected with scientific industry should not be neglected we have set up the Civil Research Committee which is a body analogous to the Committee of Imperial Defence, which is framed on exactly the same model, and which is capable of associating with it for the purpose of a particular inquiry any man of any party or any walk in life or any professional or business attainments, and generally of studying these affairs with all the flexibility with which the military side has long been studied under the admirable organisation of the Committee of Imperial Defence.

The right hon. Gentleman spoke about widening the area of assessment for local bodies and touched upon the question of the taxation of land values. He knows perfectly well that that is a question that has been explored before and even experimentally explored. He was the pioneer in this forest, and I followed in the wake of his axe, and I was rather shocked when still under his leadership to find that the right hon. Gentleman, in the full plenitude and sunshine of victorious peace after the War, appeared to lose interest and quite tamely consented to the destruction of the valuation.

On the contrary, the valuation was destroyed after I left the Government, and I protested against it from my place in the House, because I said that valuation would have been invaluable for this particular purpose. The only thing my right hon. Friend is right in referring to is the halfpenny tax which was dropped by the present Foreign Secretary, because obviously a half-penny tax will not help the right hon. Gentleman very much.

I remember very distinctly the sensation of shock and disappointment which stole over me when I saw the confident advance of the right hon. Gentleman suddenly arrested by what appeared at the time to be a definite acceptance on his part that all the arguments that may be used in favour of this policy in practice are attended by very considerable administrative difficulties and produce all sorts of unexpected reactions.

Then the right hon. Gentleman came to the field of agriculture. Naturally, it is very easy to draw attention to the many evils that exist and under which the agricultural community suffer by the prevalence of foreign food and dairy produce in our midst. I have not yet read the Yellow Book, but the last thing in the world I expect to find in it is any statement of readiness on the part of the right hon. Gentleman to advocate any curtailment of the freedom of import of food from any country in the world. If that be so, it would take a very great many pages of the Yellow Book to elabo- rate a policy which will restore to British agriculture that prosperity which countries whose food is home-produced have in the industry of agriculture long enjoyed.

The last question with which the right hon. Gentleman dealt was the burden of the local rates. We are, I think, in very considerable agreement in all parties that this is a great burden, and, as he has mentioned so many different topics, I will point out that it will be wise to exercise in this matter a selective function and single out some one great branch of administrative difficulty, a single sphere into which Parliament could, if possible, advance. I see no field into which it is more desirable to advance than this field of the burden of the rates upon industry. There is the burden upon industry and there is the levying of a tax on the tools and instrument of production rather than on the profits which may be gathered from their use. There is the fact that this burden falls most heavily when industry is most depressed. There is the fact that the burden falls most heavily when the scale of production is descended, when you reach those basic industries which employ great masses of working men, which lie at the foundation of our whole industrial system, which are suffering most acutely at present, and which pay rates upon a scale utterly disproportionate to the profits that are to be gained from those industries and to the burdens that fall upon the higher grades.

7.0 p.m.

Then there is the question of necessitous areas. After all, why is it that an industry quits a particular area? The industries begin to flag, many people are unemployed, the rates go up and more are unemployed, and industry begins to move off into other districts, and no new industries will come in. It is shunned, a derelict area, and yet there remain in that area a very large number of human beings who are, as it were, left stranded high and dry. Yet, if you look at those places where you have your necessitous areas, you see they are places specially adapted for industry. Why go off into ploughed fields, far from any at present constructed line of communication and unprovided with any housing accommodation? Why go there to construct new industries, when you have in these necessitous areas a population that seeks to work, with their institutions, and with all the necessities of sanitation and so forth that are required? Those are the places where industry ought to thrive. It does not thrive; it flies from those areas, because the burden of rates is destructive, and because in the distress which follows in these derelict areas there grows up a spirit of strife and bad will which adds to the aversion of industry to go near them, and so it moves off outside the boundaries to any district where it can find a new situation.

Whether you look at the burden upon the productive industries, or whether you look at the condition of these necessitous areas, you will find that the rates are a most serious and vicious feature. It is the same in regard to agriculture, upon which the rates press with a severity which Parliament has already recognised in the partial mitigations it has so far accorded it. But perhaps you will say to me—in fact, I think it was said by one speaker—that I am the last Minister who has any right to talk about the burden of rates, because I have, in the words of the hon. and learned Member for South Shields, "unloaded the taxes on to the rates." That is really quite untrue. It is so untrue that it is unjust, and it is so unjust that I am sure, when the facts are made known to him, the hon. and learned Gentleman will be the first to disavow his argument. He points to the fact that the surplus of the Road Fund has been requisitioned by the Exchequer for the purpose of bridging the gap between revenue and expenditure occasioned by the industrial troubles of the last few years.

If I am failing to develop my argument, no greater disservice could be rendered to me than to allow me to continue on my way. I know that when people get the ingle tax mania in their heads—I know the symptoms well. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) had a very bad dose—

Well, I had a very slight one. He shook it off, but he has apparently incubated a second attack. It is quite fallacious to argue that the taking over of the Road Fund surplus has thrown any burden on the local rates. As I pointed out last year, the bulk of the monies which have been transferred to the Exchequer were not available for distribution. They were kept as working balances of the Road Fund and were used to finance it from year to year, and throughout the year. Nearly all of the revenue of the Road Fund comes in in the last quarter of the financial year, but they kept this large working balance in order to defray their expenditure until that moment was reached, and then they had another big balance to carry on. Following the policy we adopted to avoid the re-imposition of onerous taxation, I transferred this balance from the Road Fund to the Exchequer. Even in so far as these funds could have been used for further road development, do not suppose that they would have been available in reduction of rates. They would have been used for further improvements in the roads, for the construction of those gigantic racing tracks, which, in my opinion, although of great interest and value in themselves, go far beyond what is actually good housekeeping. Therefore, I say it is absurd to argue that this Road Fund reserve has been abstracted from what would otherwise have been available for the reduction of the rates. As a matter of fact, the roads of this country are far ahead of the roads of any other, and the sums provided each year have been greater and will continue to be greater, and the rate of development of our roads continues to be in excess of the development of any other country. One has also to consider in these matters whether the undue forcing of a particular form of transport may not inflict undue injury upon other forms of transport with a great part to play in our national life.

Leaving this question of the Road Fund upon one side, I am here to contend that the whole process of this Government has been to aid local authorities and to economise national expenditure in order to relieve local burdens. I say that a far tighter hand has been kept upon national expenditure than upon local expenditure. The cost of the central Government has been actually reduced since we have been in power; the cost of local government has steadily in- creased, and we have contributed to the relief of local burdens from the National Exchequer to an extent which has never been witnessed before. Take the increased cost of the old age pensions at 70, the non-contributory scheme—nearly £8,000,000 more. Take the consolidated charge of £4,000,000 a year for the new pensions scheme for widows and orphans, and for reducing the age to 65. That is £12,000,000 between the two. Are not these grants to some extent in assistance of the local authorities? Why, it is one of the reproaches which have been directed against us by the Labour opposition that these new pension schemes are in some cases so applied as to leave individuals worse off than they would have been under the Poor Law. If that occurs, it may be called harsh, but how is it to be squared with any contention that we have transferred burdens from the national to the local authority? Here the case is that the local authority has been diversed of the burden, because that burden is undertaken in a much wider and more efficient manner by the national authority.

Take the question of education. Including the teachers' pensions, we are providing from the National Exchequer this year £2,000,000 more than our predecessors, mainly, of course, through the agency of percentage grants to the local authorities. The steady development in the improvement of the health services, which has continued throughout this Parliament, costs £1,000,000 more than in the last Parliament, and is of direct assistance to the local authorities. The housing schemes have imposed upon us an increased charge of £2,000,000 a year, which, again, is a direct assistance to the local authorities from the National Exchequer. On these four heads alone, I have accounted for £17,000,000 a year, which is being provided at the present time and which had not been provided when we took up office.

I am dealing with the question that we have thrown national expenditure on to the rates, and I say that very few people realise how great is the liability which the State has accepted in respect of all these schemes which operate directly or indirectly to reduce the local rates. If you compare this total of what we are paying in one form or another this year in aid of local government, the burden borne by the National Exchequer as against local finance, with the year 1924, which the right hon. Gentleman who spoke from the Labour benches referred to as the palmy days when all went well, you will be very struck with the figures. In the present year, £165,000,000 is being provided by the Central Exchequer in aid of these purposes, for which in 1924 the Labour Government provided £144,000,000, or £21,000,000 less. Now I can quite understand those facts being used in an extremely pointed manner in an economy Debate, but certainly they are altogether counter to the argument which is suggested from the Liberal benches that we have, and that I as Chancellor of the Exchequer have, signalised our regime by shirking our own burdens and by adding them to the finance of the local authorities. The exact reverse is true. We have increased our own central expenditure, and we have given largely increased subventions in aid of local purposes.

I am now going to resume the examination of this question of rates. Having cleared my character, I advance with clean hands into the battle. There has been a great deal of talk about the sentence in the Gracious Speech, and a great deal has been said in the various Debates in consequence of certain observations of the Prime Minister in the two speeches which he has delivered. I would like to say that this question of the rates—I take it in quite a general form—is one in which an advance is only possible when all the facts are known and when the whole field has been surveyed. There are a great many questions to be answered. How much money is needed? How much will there be available? In what direction can that money be most usefully applied? What safeguards will be required for the national Exchequer? What incentives will be required to economy in local administration? What will be the reactions produced upon local finance and upon the relations between local and national finance? What reactions or rearrangements will follow in the power and in the character of local authorities? What solution would be offered for the problem of the necessitous areas? To what extent would a beneficial effect be produced upon productive industry in town and country? Would it be a real effect Would it be enough? Would it be an appreciable stimulus and relief? And what would be the effects of any such relief and revival in productive industry in town and country upon the diminution of unemployment and the expansion of our overseas trade? All this group of questions, which could easily be extended in number, is inter-related. Every one of these questions is bound up with every other.

But in the forefront of them all there is the peg on which everything else hangs. That peg is money. We do not know yet where we stand in regard to money, but we shall know with considerable accuracy within the next few weeks. We already know within narrow limits what the expenditure of 1928—the coming year—will be, and the House will shortly be able to see, as the Civil and Military Estimates are successively produced, whether that expenditure has remained stationary, whether it has increased or whether it has diminished, and to what extent. But it is not until March has waned that the revenue position will be really clear. During that month we shall learn both the probable out-turn of the financial year of 1927–28 in which we are living now and also the forecast for the financial year 1928–29. Last year we had a great misfortune. Quite late in the year—the middle of March.—I was confronted with the dire need of writing down Income Tax by more than £20,000,000—an experience never endured by any of my predecessors in time of peace and apart from reduction of taxation. I really cannot run the risk of any such surprise this year. With that experience fresh in my memory, I must altogether decline to make any forecast in advance of the proper time. And as such forecast constitutes, the foundation on which all plans dealing with the rating problem must be based it is obvious that the utmost caution must be imposed upon all Ministerial statements and still more that that caution must inspire any statement which figures in the Gracious Speech from the Throne. It would be most unfortunate if expectations were raised which it was subsequently found impossible to gratify. The Government might find themselves placed in a ridiculous position if they committed themselves publicly to extensive and intricate schemes and then found that the means, for carrying them out were altogether lacking.

Therefore, I say, until I can speak with tolerable certainty about the finances, no undertaking of any kind can be given, and no hope—I hope this will be written down that it may be useful afterwards; I hope it may be used in evidence for me —even the most modest and most timid, ought to be indulged in by anyone. Nevertheless, having said so much, or, perhaps you may say, so little, I should like to say a little more. Once this dominating uncertainty of finance is removed and once the financial position is found satisfactory, there is a series of suitable engines, both legislative and administrative, which are in an advanced state of preparation, and there is no reason why these engines should not, if the motive power is forthcoming, advance punctually and in a carefully marked-out sequence from the arsenal where they are now being constructed into the field of action, which field, as the House may observe, has been provisionally, no doubt, and at the same time significantly, cleared to a very large extent. It is possible that this whole campaign will have to stand over to another Parliament. In that case the immense amount of work which has been done, and is being done, will not be wasted. The fruition of this scheme, or some variation of this scheme, may be postponed, but I am absolutely certain that this group of questions concerned with the rates cannot possibly be left, whatever may be the fortunes of political parties in this country, in its present wholly anomalous and obsolete condition.

I have only one other observation to make upon this subject. The expenditure of public money at the present time imposes the very gravest responsibility upon everyone. Money is almost the only power in times of peace available and at the disposal of Governments to influence administrative reform. It is the one precious and potent agency, and to squander that power, to fritter it away, would be at all times a blunder and at this time a crime. Money may be used as a sop or it may be used as a lever. When you use it as a sop you get your cheer, you get some friendly notes in the Press, a. few phamphlets and leaflets may be written about it and a few speeches made about it, but it has gone. It is a sop, and it has gone. But if you use it as a lever it may be made to influence matters of far greater consequence than is measured even by the actual amount it involves. To attempt to use public and national money in order to effect the relief and reform of the rating system and to let that use take the form of a mere sop and not of a lever, which will compel the whole series of intricate topics to move forward into a better and higher plane of national organisation—I say to take that course would be to throw away an enormous opportunity. It would be far better to wait and allow another Parliament to tackle the problem.

I hope I have said enough to show at any rate- that, although His Majesty's Government are not yet in a position to place before the House their, full plans and schemes for this present Session, and although financial events may so turn themselves that it may not be given to

us to make the advance, these matters hold the first and the highest position in cur minds. So far from coming before a Parliament with the idea that there is nothing to be done and no abuses to be corrected and no remedies which can be applied to the social evil, no means by which we can improve the economic and social organisation of this country, so far from adopting that line, we only hope and trust that we may be charged with the responsibility of making definite and extensive proposals. But in the meantime a Vote of Censure is proposed in the form of an Amendment to the Address. I trust that one House will respond to the appeal which it is my duty to make and repulse those censures which do no justice either to the achievements or the intentions and still less to the desires of His Majesty's Ministers.

Question put, "That those words be there added."

The House divided: Ayes, 140; Noes, 310.

Division No. 5. ]]

AYES.

[ 7.25 p.m.

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Groves, T.

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Grundy, T. W.

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Ammon, Charles George

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll)

Ponsonby, Arthur

Barker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

Hardle, George D.

Potts, John S.

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Harney, E. A.

Rees, Sir Beddoe

Barnes, A.

Harris, Percy A.

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Barr, J.

Hayday, Arthur

Ritson, J.

Batey, Joseph

Hayes, John Henry

Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W. Bromwich)

Bondfield, Margaret

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

Saklatvala, Shapurji

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Hirst, G. H.

Salter, Dr. Alfred

Briant, Frank

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Scurr, John

Broad, F. A.

Hore-Belisha, Leslie

Sexton, James

Bromfield, William

Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Bromley, J.

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

Buchanan, G.

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Shiels, Dr. Drummond

Charleton, H. C.

Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Clowes, S.

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merloneth)

Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

Cluse, W. S.

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Sitch, Charles H.

Compton, Joseph

Kelly, W. T.

Slesser, Sir Henry H.

Connolly, M.

Kennedy, T.

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Cove, W. G.

Kirkwood, D.

Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Lansbury, George

Snell, Harry

Crawfurd, H. E.

Lawrence, Susan

Stamford, T. W.

Dalton, Hugh

Lawson, John James

Stephen, Campbell

Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

Lee, F.

Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

Lindley, F. W.

Strauss, E. A.

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Livingstone, A. M.

Sutton, J. E.

Day, Colonel Harry

Lowth, T.

Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

Dennison, R.

Lunn William

Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

Dunnico, H.

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon)

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

Edge, Sir William

Mackinder, W.

Tinker, John Joseph

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

MacLaren, Andrew

Tomlinson, R. P.

Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)

Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

Townend, A. E.

England, Colonel A.

MacNeill-Weir, L.

Variey, Frank B.

Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

Viant, S. P.

Forrest, W.

March, S.

Wallhead, Richard C.

Gardner, J. P.

Maxton, James

Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd

Montague, Frederick

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermilne)

Gillett, George M.

Morris, R. H.

Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

Gosling, Harry

Mosley, Oswald

Wellock, Wilfred

Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

Murnin, H.

Westwood, J.

Greenall, T.

Naylor, T. E.

Wheatley, Rt. Hon. j.

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Oliver, George Harold

Whiteley, W.

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Palin, John Henry

Wiggins, William Martin

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Paling, W.

Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)

Windsor, Walter

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Mr. Fenby and Major Owen.—Mr. Fenby and Major Owen.

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Wright, W.

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

NOES.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

Iliffe, Sir Edward M.

Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Galnsbro)

Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

Albery, Irving James

Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

Iveagh, Countess of

Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)

Cunliffe, Sir Herbert

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Jephcott, A. R.

Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

Dalkeith, Earl of

Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)

Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford)

Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William

Apsley, Lord

Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

Kennedy, A. R. (preston)

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

Davies, Ma). Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovll)

Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

Astbury, lieut.-Commander F. W.

Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

Kindersley, Major Guy M.

Astor, Viscountess

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

King, Commodore Henry Douglas

Atkinson, C.

Dixey, A. C.

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert

Knox, Sir Alfred

Balniel, Lord

Drewe, C.

Lamb, J. Q.

Banks, Reginald Mitchell

Eden, Captain Anthony

Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

Ellis, R. G.

Loder, J. de V.

Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s. -M.)

Long, Major Eric

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

Looker, Herbert William

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Everard, W. Lindsay

Lougher, Lewis

Bennett, A. J.

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

Falle, Sir Bertram G.

Luce, Ma).-Gen. sir Richard Harman

Betterton, Henry B.

Fanshawe, Captain G. D.

Lumley, L. R.

Birchall, Major J. Dearman

Fermoy, Lord

MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

Fielden, E. B.

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

Foster, Sir Harry S.

Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

Blundell, F. N.

Fraser, Captain Ian

McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

Boothby, R. J. G.

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

MacIntyre, Ian

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Gadle, Lieut.-Colonel Anthony

McLean, Major A.

Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

Galbraith, J. F. W.

Macmillan, Captain H.

Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

Ganzoni, Sir John

Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B.

Gates, Percy

Macquisten, F. A.

Brass, Captain W.

Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

Brassey, Sir Leonard

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

Makins, Brigadier-General E.

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Goff, Sir Park

Mannlngham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

Briggs, J. Harold

Gower, Sir Robert

Margesson, Captain D.

Briscoe, Richard George

Grace, John

Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

Brockiebank, C. E.).

Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

Meller, R. J.

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

Grant, Sir J. A.

Merriman, F. B.

Broun-Lindsay. Major H.

Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-

Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I' d., Hexham)

Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter

Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Buchan, John

Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

Moles, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Buckingham, Sir H.

Grotrlan, H. Brent

Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

Moore, Sir Newton J.

Bullock, Captain M.

Gunston, Captain D. W.

Moreing, Captain A. H.

Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan

Hall, Lieut.-Col. sir F. (Dulwich)

Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

Burman, J. B.

Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Cllve

Burton, Colonel H. W.

Hammersley, S.S.

Murchison, Sir Kenneth

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Hanbury, C.

Nelson, Sir Frank

Butt, Sir Alfred

Harland, A.

Neville, Sir Reginald J.

Calne, Gordon Hall

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

Campbell, E. T.

Harrison, G. J. C.

Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

Carver, Major W. H.

Hartington, Marquess of

Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hon. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.)

Cassels, J. D.

Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

Cautley, Sir Henry S.

Haslam, Henry C.

Nuttall, Ellis

Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.)

Headlam, Lieut-Colonel C. M.

Oakley, T.

Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley

O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

Henderson, Lt.-Col. Sir V. L. (Bootle)

O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Blrm., W.)

Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

Oman, Sir Charles William C.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

Henn, Sir Sydney H.

Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

Charteris, Brigadier-General J.

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Penny, Frederick George

Chilcott, Sir Warden

Hills, Major John Waller

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Christie, J. A.

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

Perring, Sir William George

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy

Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

Clayton, G. C.

Holt, Captain H. P.

Pilcher, G.

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Homan, C. W. J.

Pownall, Sir Assheton

Cockerlll, Brig.-General Sir George

Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

Preston, William

Cohen, Major J. Brunei

Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)

Price, Major C. W. M.

Colman, N. C. D.

Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

Raine, Sir Walter

Conway, Sir W. Martin

Horlick, Lieut. Colonel J. N.

Ramsden, E.

Cooper, A. Duff

Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

Rawson, Sir Cooper

Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

Hudson, Capt. A. u. M.(Hackney, N.)

Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington)

Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)

Hume, Sir G. H.

Reid, D. D. (County Down)

Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis

Remer, J. R.

Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

Hurd, Percy A.

Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

Crooke, J. Smediey (Derltend)

Hurst, Gerald B.

Rice, Sir Frederick

Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

Waterhouse, Captain Charles

Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

Ropner, Major L.

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

Storry-Deans, R.

Watts, Dr. T.

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

Wayland, Sir William A.

Rye, F. G.

Streatfeild, Captain S. R.

Wells, S. R

Salmon, Major I.

Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple.

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Styles, Captain H. Walter

Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

Sandeman, N. Stewart

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

Sanders, Sir Robert A.

Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

Wilson, Sir Murrough (Yorks, Richm'd)

Sanderson, Sir Frank

Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

Sandon, Lord

Tasker, R. Inigo.

Wlnby, Colonel L. P.

Savery, S. S.

Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Shaw, Lt.-Col. A.D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.)

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Withers, John James

Shepperson, E. W.

Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

Womersley, W. J.

Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Unlv., Belfst)

Tinne, J. A.

Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

Skelton, A. N.

Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'gt & Hyde)

Slaney, Major P. Kenyon

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Klnc'dlne, C.

Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough

Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

Smith-Caington, Neville W.

Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

Smithers, Waldron

Waddington, R.

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Wallace, Captain D. E.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —Major Sir George Hennessy and Major Cope.—Major Sir George Hennessy and Major Cope.

Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)

Sprot, Sir Alexander

Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G.F.

Warrender, Sir Victor

Main Question put, and agreed to.

Resolved,

"That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, as followeth: —

Most Gracious Sovereign,

We, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, in Parliament assembled beg leave to offer our humble thanks to Your Majesty for the Gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament."—

To be presented by Privy Councillors or Members of His Majesty's Household .

Supply

Resolved,

"That this House will To-morrow resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to His Majesty."— [ Sir G. Hennessy .

Ordered, "That the Estimate presented to this House on 7th February be referred to the Committee of Supply."

Ways and Means

Resolved,

"That this House will To-morrow resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Ways and Means for raising the Supply to be granted to His Majesty."—[ Sir G. Hennessy .]

High Court of Justice (King's Bench Division)

I beg to move, Judges of the King's Bench Division by virtue of various Statutes which were passed, arrears were accumulating in the trial of actions in that division. Accordingly, an Act was passed in 1910 which enabled two extra Judges to be appointed on Addresses from both Houses of Parliament.

At the time when the Act was introduced, the actual number of causes standing for trial in the King's Bench Division was 795. I take that as the standard number which Parliament in those days thought was sufficiently excessive to call for the exercise of this power for the appointment of additional Judges. As a result of the appointment of the extra two Judges the arrears were gradually reduced. Then came the War, and by the end of 1917 the total number of causes had been cut down to 321, a much more moderate and satisfactory figure. In 1918 they were still very moderate, namely, 358, but after that year, when the Armistice had come and litigation had resumed its more normal flow, the arrears began to accumulate again. Accordingly, once more it became necessary to exercise the power of appointing two extra Judges. I do not want to worry the House with statistics. I think it will be sufficient to remind it that in 1924 the Socialist Government had intended to move a Resolution, and when we succeeded them we came to the conclusion that that view was abundantly justified and, accordingly, a Resolution was moved and two extra Judges were appointed. As a result of that action, the arrears were gradually brought down, but, as the House will remember, it most unfortunately happened that one of our learned Judges, Mr. Justice Fraser, died practically in harness in the early part of last year. Apart from the very great loss which his great judicial talent meant to the strength of the Bench, we were once more one below the maximum number. Later on in the year Lord Justice Greer was promoted to the Court of Appeal, and thereupon we were down to the minimum number of 16 Judges.

The effect of this reduction in judicial strength was at once to show an increase in the number of cases standing for trial, and at Michaelmas, 1927, when this current legal year began, there were no fewer than 939 causes awaiting trial, compared with 795 which had induced Parliament originally to give this power. Since Michaelmas things have necessarily got worse, because two Judges, having been removed and not replaced, the remaining strength of the judicial bench has not been sufficient to keep up with the flow of fresh actions. At the beginning of this year there were 1,017 causes standing for trial, an increase of nearly 80 in the three months, and on the latest date which I have, the 9th February, a week ago, the number standing for trial was no less than 1,090, so that we had again lost ground during the first few weeks of the sittings. In these circumstances, the Government have thought it right to ask each House of Parliament to pass a Resolution which will enable the judicial strength to be restored by the appointment of two new Judges. I ought to say at once that we do not think that it is permanently necessary to increase the strength by that number. If we have the two Judges, that ought to reduce the arrears, and, although I cannot say that 16 Judges will be able permanently to do the work, at any rate we hope that it will not be necessary to fill more than one of the vacancies hereafter.

It is suggested, sometimes, that on grounds of economy these appointments are to be deprecated. I would like, first of all, to remind the House that although it is not an answer, if otherwise the case were unanswerable, the amount of the total expense involved is not a very heavy drain on the finances of the country. The total cost of a judge is £5,000 and £400 for his clerk, so that the two judges will cost £10,800 a year, a very considerable proportion of which will come back to the State in the form of Income Tax and Super-tax. But no doubt this is an expenditure, and it has to be justified up to the hilt. My answer to the suggestion of a lack of economy is that there can be no worse economy than the under-manning of your judicial staff. It is not the judges who are mainly affected if there should be insufficient judicial strength. The judge has his fixed number of hours to sit. It makes no difference to the care and patience which he has to apply whether the case is set down six months or two years before it is heard. The persons who are affected by the under-manning of the Judicial Bench are the litigants of this country.

I would remind the House of how more than once it has been said, in far more eloquent language than I could seek to employ, that the denial of speedy justice is equivalent very often to the denial of justice altogether. It is not fair to His Majesty's subjects that when they have 'cases to try they should be told that for lack of the necessary provision of judicial strength they may have to wait for a year or 18 months or two years before their cases are disposed of. That is a real hardship. It makes the administration of justice more difficult, and it very often means that the litigant, when he ultimately proves successful, is deprived of the fruits of his judgment. Therefore, it is from the point of view of the litigant that I approach this problem. We have a position at present in which it is shown that the arrears are accumulating. That means that it takes longer for actions to be tried, and it means that those who bring their actions henceforth will be unable to obtain the decisions to which they are entitled and will be kept in a state of harassment and uncertainty. Their lawsuits may last for a long time and they may ultimately reap nothing but a barren victory. Even from the point of view of finance, the economy is a false one, because the House will remember that the establishment charges of the law remain unaltered. You have the Courts provided for the hearing of cases just the same, whether there are judges sitting in them or not. You have the staff waiting at the Law Courts to deal with the judicial work. You have all these, establishment charges running on, and it is false economy not to use them to the best advantage.

It has been said sometimes, and suggestions have been made, that the pro blem might be solved in other ways. For instance, there might be a further relegation to the County Courts. Those who have followed the course of our legislation will realise the enormous extension which, in fact, has been given to County Courts' jurisdiction by a succession of Acts of Parliament culminating in one which was passed by hon. Members opposite in the year 1924. It was also supported by our own side. You have to remember that at the present moment many of the County Court Judges are even finding it impossible to get through the amount of work laid down for them. By increasing their work you will only create in their Courts the very congestion that you are seeking to avoid in the High Courts. It is said on the other hand, that something could be done by an alteration of circuits. That is a problem that is being considered by more than one Government, and it has been brought before the House of Commons more than once. I have no doubt that it is possible by a regrouping of towns and counties to effect a certain economy of judicial time, but the House has to remember that whenever proposals of that kind have been put before the House of Commons they have met with a most strenuous opposition, and that that opposition has not been altogether unreasonable, because it is felt by some of the smaller county towns that it is not right that they should be deprived of the opportunity of having their cases, and their criminal cases especially tried, in the neighbourhood of the people accused and interested, and that it is not for the good of the administration of justice that those counties should be deprived altogether of the presence of a Judge of the High Court. Consequently, there has been considerable opposition manifested whenever any attempt has been made to interfere seriously with the circuit system.

There has been something done however. Powers have been taken in an Act passed in 1925 to dispense with the sittings in a particular county town when there seems likely to be no substantial business to be done there, and under those powers opportunity has been afforded and has been taken to restrict the sittings in county towns on certain occasions, and thereby to effect some saving of judicial time. Whether anything more can be done in that way is a matter which anxiously engages the attention of those responsible for the handling of the judicial strength of the country, but it certainly would not enable us to overcome the position in which we find ourselves to-day; of a steady accumulation of arrears. I can assure the House that my Noble Friends the Lord Chancellor and the Lord Chief Justice have given and are giving to this matter their anxious attention. I can assure the House that the Lord Chief Justice himself has more than once stated that it is his deliberate opinion that the request which we are now making to the House is not only justified but is urgently needed in the interests of judicial efficiency and the efficiency of our legal system. I feel confident that the House of Commons would not desire to cramp and hamper the proper administration of justice or to grudge anything which is necessary to enable our Judges to discharge their duties with despatch and to grant to His Majesty's lieges that speedy justice which it is their bounden privilege to obtain. I beg to move this Motion in order that the new Judges may be created. In another place a Resolution to this effect was carried towards the end of last year, and I am informed that a similar Resolution has been carried in another place during the current day.

Those of us who sit on this side of the House have given very careful consideration! to this Motion, and we have come to the conclusion that, in all the circumstances, the case which the Government have made out for the passing of this Resolution ought to be sustained. As the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney-General has remarked, we of the Labour Government decided, in the year 1924, to ask the House to give us this very Resolution, and the circum-stances, which were very carefully considered with regard to the arrears in the Courts, since that time have not changed, at any rate for the better, and the case which was before us then is before us to-day. I think it is a very wise principle for Oppositions to observe that they should not oppose that which they would be in favour of promoting themselves, and, acting upon that principle—possibly some day the right hon. and learned Gentleman himself will be able to exemplify it in this House—we have come to the conclusion that just those very reasons which moved me and other persons then responsible to do whatever we could to promote this Resolution, exist at the present time.

The real fact of the situation is that, apart from the normal development of legal work, a change has come over the work in the Courts in this manner. Since the end of the War, owing to the alteration in the Acts relating to juries, there is an increasing number of cases which are now tried by jury, and it is common knowledge among all who practise in the Courts— I do not think any Judge would refute this fact— that normally a trial before a jury, excellent as it may be, is likely to be more protracted than a trial before a Judge alone. Whether that be a fault of counsel or not, in that a jury induces to longer speeches, I will not discuss now, but it is a fact that the increase in the arrears has synchronised with the development of the use of the jury system. That being so—I do not know whether any opposition is going to be offered to this Resolution or not; it is not going to be offered by our party— it will be necessary for anybody who opposes this Resolution to show that, things being as they are, we cannot afford, in the interests of the litigants themselves—which is what we are concerned with—to allow any longer these arrears.

I am informed—I do not say that my figures are absolutely accurate, because it is almost impossible to form an accurate estimate—that the space of time which may occur between the entry of p. case in the King's Bench Division and its clearance is anything up to eight months. It really is a very serious grievance to be deprived of a hearing for that length of time. The only matter which we have to consider now, under the terms of this Resolution, is whether the state of business requires this to be done or mot. I know there will be a temptation, which this Resolution offers, to discuss at large the defects or the merits of the working of our present judicial system. Strictly speaking, that is not the subject before us, although in other Debates in this place and in other places I have noted that persons have not been able to withstand the temptation to speak rather at large on the general question. But if we confine ourselves to the question of people having the right to have their cases heard, I cannot think that anyone in this House will say that any of His Majesty's subjects should be kept out of their legal rights for eight months in order that perhaps— much of it is got back in the form of fees— we may save £6,000. Opposition to the proposal can only take the form of showing that if things had been otherwise than they are, the arrears would have been otherwise. I do not suppose that Mr. Speaker will deny to anyone the satisfaction of discussing that, although it is not the subject before us.

8.0 p.m.

As the right hon. and learned Attorney-General has said, a great deal has been done during the last few years, and part of it, as the right hon. Gentleman very generously said, by the Labour Government, to cope with this particular matter. The opportunities of remission to the County Courts have been increased, and the right hon. Gentleman has pointed out that, under the 1925 Act, there is the power, which the Lord Chief Justice has already frequently exercised, to see that Assizes are not necessarily held where there is no need for them. Since 1925 a. large number of cases have been sent to Quarter Sessions which formerly were tried at Assize Courts. Moreover, the litigant in bankruptcy appeals, which were formerly held in the King's Bench Division, is now heard on the Chancery side. One of the recommendations of the Commission which sat in 1913 was the transference of work from the King's Bench Division to the Chancery Division. As far as bankruptcy appeals are concerned, that has already been done. Nobody can say that nothing at all has been done. A great deal has been done during the last few years. This is in no sense a party matter; it is a matter of national concern. For that reason we agree with the view which we took in 1924. It is the view which the Government take to-night, and as we think it is the right one we shall support the Resolution.

I congratulate the last speaker on having achieved a speech in the House in support of the Government of the day. I can assure him that his references to opposition to this Resolution will not deter me from putting before the House the same case as I put in December, 1924, when last the application was made. I recognise the reasonableness of the manner in which the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney-General put the case before the House, but I have to remember that I represent constituents who are very hardly taxed, like all other constituents, and are scrutinising very carefully every penny of expenditure which they think ought to be avoided. It is upon that ground, even if I stand alone, that I oppose the Resolution, and I shall put before the House certain facts which ought to be considered. It looks to me as if the repetition of this Motion means that in the opinion of some people the Bench ought permanently to be made a Bench of seventeen. Let us for a moment see how far this is justified.

I noticed that the origin of this particular application was an impassioned speech at the Lord Mayor's Banquet by the Noble Lord, the Lord Chief justice, and if rumour be correct—she is often a lying jade—there has been considerable hesitation in bringing the Motion forward. It was suggested by the last speaker that it would be ungenerous to oppose this Resolution. It will be my duty to refer him to his own Lord Chancellor, the Noble Lord, Lord Haldane, who on the last occasion when this was raised in another place offered the strongest objection to it. Lord Haldane said:

Lord Haldane definitely said that he would not oppose the Resolution, and that the Government were the best judges as to its necessity.

On a point of Order. Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman in order at all in reading an extract from a Debate in another place.

An hon. Member can read an extract for the purpose of giving information, but he is not entitled to read it for the purpose of answering the argument in another place.

I would hardly quote extracts from speeches in another place except to support what I have said. Do hon. Members not desire to hear what Noble Lords said in another place about this matter? In order to be perfectly fair I must go on and quote the text of Lord Haldane's speech further. He said:

"If I am asked, to say whether it is true that we cannot get on without these idea requirements, then my answer is that I do not think that we can say more than that it is not proved."

Then he went on to speak about the shortening of the Long Vacation, and said that the proper course would be a transference of non-jury actions from the King's Bench Division to the Chancery Division. I have examined the lists of the Chancery Division. They are very light. The lists in the Court of Appeal and Chancery are exceedingly light, and it is very doubtful as to how long that Court will be able to continue to have a full day's list before it.

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman read the last paragraph of Lord Haldane's speech?

I will. The impatience of my hon. Friends is such as to lead to the supposition that there is something sinister about the whole business, but I can assure them that I intend to put my case, with the permission of the Chair, in spite of interruptions. If it is the desire of the House that I should read the whole of the Debate in another place I will do so with pleasure. Lord Haldane went on to say: century on much the basis on which they are now. He spoke of the land-locked population of that time, and went on to call attention to the enormous development in railway communications and every other kind of communication, and said that the old state of things had passed away, that the proper thing was to rearrange the circuit system so that there would be definite large centres to which the outlying districts could easily come, and urged that by this means less time would be consumed— I will not say wasted. Then he made use of another suggestion. He said the country was under-paying the County Court Judges, that the better course was to increase their pay, and that then they might justly be asked to undertake further work. I agree with much that the learned Attorney-General said with regard to that. In many of the County Courts the Judges are overworked and in other County Courts no doubt they have time to spare.

But there is a matter to which I want to call attention, and that very seriously. When I took part in the Debate in 1924, one of the reasons urged for the appointment of the Judges was that so many of them had been withdrawn for the purpose of other duties completely outside their judicial functions. A long list was given of different Commissions and Committees and investigations undertaken by learned Judges. The details of these can be found in the OFFICIAL REPORT of the Parliamentary Debates. The same argument cannot be urged now. I put a question to the learned Attorney-General at the end of last year, when it was anticipated that this question would come up, and I received an answer which shows that Mr. Justice Tomlin was occupied for 68 days on the Royal Commission on Awards to Inventors and nine days as Chairman of the University of London Commissioners. In regard to the King's Bench Division it showed that the Lord Chief Justice was occupied for 19 days in the War Compensation Court, and Mr. Justice Swift for six days with the Certificate of Naturalisation Committee. That sort of duty has wholly passed away. Therefore, it cannot be urged that the Bench has been depleted by that kind of outside work.

I go back to the criticism of Lord Buckmaster on the question of circuits. He said he was convinced that the circuits might be rearranged. Surely that is the gist of the whole thing. I have in my hand the Report of the Committee specifically appointed in 1923, and presided over by Mr. Justice Swift, to inquire into the rearrangement of the circuit system. In that Report certain definite recommendations were made in the interests of economy and efficiency. That was in February, 1923. and nothing was done. When we had the Debate in 1924 it was suggested that something might be done in that direction. The Motion in 1924 was objected to by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Swansea (Mr. Runciman), who is unable, I understand, to be here to-night. I think, reading the discussion which they took place and the right hon. Gentleman's speech on that occasion, that we should certainly have an intensified feeling on his part this evening if he were here to express himself. In 1924 the absence of legislation was again given as a reason for not altering the system, but in 1925 an Act was passed which empowered the Lord Chief Justice, if he thought fit, to make an Order abolishing assizes at which there were so few prisoners or so few causes for trial as to make it unreasonable to expect that there should be all the paraphernalia of an assize Court at that place. What has happened? That Act was on the Statute Book in 1925, and here we are to-day in 1928, and there have only been two occasions—[HON. MEMBERS: "Four!"]—I have asked a question on the subject, and, if hon. Members who interrupt are right, then the Attorney-General has not answered me accurately, and I hesitate to think so. I asked a question on 8th December, 1927, of the Attorney-General: There is a great deal of other criticism, but I forebear to quote it, but before sitting down I wish to call attention to another matter. At present the Court of Criminal Appeal sits every Monday and is constituted of three Judges. As was said by a noble Lord in the course of that Debate, the Judges take home the papers with them, and work at home on Saturdays. The Courts no longer sit on Saturdays as they used to do. Now, quite rightly, most of the business world takes a holiday on Saturday and there is no reason why the Law Courts should be kept in full swing, ineffectively, from half past ten to half-past one on Saturdays. So, that sitting has gone, but opposite that, the Judges sit at a quarter past ten and rise at a quarter past four on other days. I am speaking now of the Judges having to take home the work relating to the Court of Criminal Appeal and examine cases before they return on Monday morning. What I suggest is that ordinary cases going to the Court of Criminal Appeal from a Court of Quarter Sessions might very well be considered by two Judges, who decide many things of equal, if not greater, importance, because it is not merely a question of convictions. I hear murmurs from my hon. and learned Friend the Member for South West Hull (Mr. Grotrian), but I intend to say what I have to say, and—

If my hon. and learned Friend had waited, he would have heard what I was going to suggest, which was that in all cases involving definite crime of a serious character, like murder, it should be the Court of Criminal Appeal, but in ordinary cases a Court of two Judges should be sufficient, and I should have thought that even a single Judge of the High Court would do. Everybody appreciates an English Judge or a Scottish Judge of the High Court or the Court of Session, and why should not one Judge determine whether or not an unlucky Recorder has passed too heavy a sentence or whether he has misdirected the jury? He is perfectly competent to do it. A little while ago the Divisional Court, which used to sit in threes, was definitely reduced to two, and they deal with very technical questions.

When it was reduced to two, it was only to deal with civil litigation, and there was a further appeal to the Court of Appeal, but in criminal matters there is no further appeal.

I am aware of that, but I am only suggesting it in what might be regarded as minor cases.

I can assure the hon. Member I have not taken steps to check the times. Generally speaking, so long as there is work in his Court to do, a Judge is to be found there, but the fact is that there could be, by a reorganisation of the work, a very considerable saving of time.

I must ask lion. Members to allow the right hon. and learned Member to proceed without being interrupted.

There is an immense amount of work done by a Judge after he rises from the Court, and I do not admit that they are not performing, their work in the best way. It would be ridiculous to suggest that any Judge of the High Court deliberately shirks his work. All that I say is that the system is wrong and that there should be a reorganisation. If you had that, I am sure that a good many of your difficulties would disappear. Times have altered, and though causes may be no more numerous, causes of action may be multiplied. Workmen's compensation cases have come in, but the present lists are not as substantial by any means as they used to be, and there is no doubt that a good deal more arbitration is done to-day than was ever done before. Well-known members of the Baltic and other commercial exchanges in the City are appointed arbitrators, and the Court lists to-day are far less substantial than they used to be. Since the last Debate, a new Judge has been appointed in the Probate, Admiralty, and Divorce Division, so that instead of there being only two Judges to deal with those cases, they now have three. It may be said, "Look at the enormous divorce lists," but I believe that undefended divorce cases are disposed of at an abnormal rate; and, indeed, I believe you can get divorce in half the time it takes you to get married. [ Laughter .] Upon the whole, I submit, notwithstanding the amusement which my observations always cause to hon. Members opposite, that there is ground for inquiry. Of course, this Motion must go to-night, but though I am, as it were, "a voice crying in the wilderness," I say that, before the Motion passes, the proper thing to do, if you had due regard to your professions of economy, would be to say that this matter must be inquired into at once in the whole of its aspects. When that has been done, legislation should be promoted once and for all to get rid of anything approaching the suggestion that judicial time is wasted.

I should have been prepared to vote for this Motion to-night much more readily than to agree to the suggestion made by the right hon. and learned Member for Ealing (Sir H. Nield) for a further grouping of the Assize towns. I speak with the experience of one who has practised in the country and represents a wide rural constituency, and I think few members of the Bar realise the difficulty we have had in the country in preparing a case for trial, even when appearing for the defence of a prisoner, for very often the prisoner has the greatest possible difficulty in obtaining the necessary fee to secure counsel, let alone to pay the poor solicitor. There is a serious aspect of the question, and that is that, as the Assizes are now held in Wales, it involves a process in many instances of taking the witnesses and his lawyer 60 or 70 miles. A large number of people have not the means of securing their witnesses and counsel at a distance. If the right hon. Gentleman had gone further, and suggested that the Crown should assist prisoners who have to go to a Court at a distance, something might be said for the proposal. Take a case on the civil side, involving possibly the attendance of six or eight witnesses. The expense of taking these people and of keeping them for three or four days at a distance of 70 or 80 miles from home is simply a denial of justice.

The hon. and learned Member for South-East Leeds (Sir H. Slesser) suggested that,, because there was a delay at the present moment of eight months in the hearing of cases in London, that was a denial of justice, but I would remind him that under the present system you cannot have civil cases tried at Assizes in Wales except every six months. In any event, the cases in London are no worse off than in the Assize Court under the present system. I agree that it is necessary to secure speedy justice, but the fact remains that for 142 days in the year there is no justice at all available in this country. For 142 days the Courts are not open. I take these figures for 1926 from Whitaker's Almanack. The Courts did not sit on 116 days in that year, and as they do not sit on Saturdays, it means that they did not sit for 142 days. The Long Vacation alone extends from the end of July until about the 10th or 11th October. No justice is possible in those circumstances, and anyone who has practised in the Courts knows quite well the terrible difficulty and the cruel situation in which citizens are placed owing to the fact that they can have no recourse to the Courts for the long period of 10 weeks. I am not prepared to vote against this Motion, but the question as to whether the Long Vacation should not be very much reduced does demand serious attention. In any event, the number of Judges available during the Long Vacation should be largely increased.

There is another method by which, I think, the present difficulty could be got over, and that is by largely increasing the jurisdiction of the County Court. The right hon. and learned Member for Ealing said that anyone who criticised the High Court Bench would bring obloquy upon himself. Even that would not prevent me doing it if I thought it was necessary, but there is no doubt that there is very considerable satisfaction— and greatly increased satisfaction—with the work that is being done by the County Court judges, and it is for that reason, apart from the question of expenditure, that I would urge the Solicitor-General to consider whether or not a large number of cases could not be transferred to the County Court. We should really realise that justice under the present conditions in certain cases to a class of people who have £ 100 or £ 2O0 a year is a matter of very considerable financial risk, and I know from experience that it is a risk they are not prepared to undertake. I know also from experience of cases where the result has been financial ruin, although the sum involved was in itself not very large.

There is a further suggestion I would' make, and that is that the jurisdiction of the County Court, particularly on the Chancery side, should be extended. At the present moment the jurisdiction of the County Court is extended to small estates under £ 500. There is a large number of cases as to the construction of wills and documents, and as to the administration of estates, which could very well be dealt with by the County Court judge, and that would relieve considerably the work in the Courts in the Strand. To us in Wales the passing of these cases to the County Court would have a further advantage. Our cases could in future be tried in almost every instance by a judge who knows the language of the people of the country, and that would be no small gain. At present, if a case is tried at the Assizes the evidence has to be interpreted, and while it is translated for the benefit of the parties, they do not understand a word very often of the speeches of counsel, much less of the summing up of the judge. That is really an intolerable position, and I suggest that if the jurisdiction of the County Court were extended, we should immediately have the advantage of having more of our cases tried by those who are acquainted with our language and traditions.

I should like to offer my congratulations to the hon. and learned Gentleman on the Front Opposition Bench for the attitude which he has adopted. He announced that, having come to the conclusion that this Motion should not be opposed, he had decided he would not oppose it. That is a startling departure from the proceedings that sometimes occur in this House, and one which one may venture to hope will receive universal acceptation. The right hon. and learned Gentlemen the Member for Ealing (Sir H. Nield) seems to have said all he did largely because he said much the same thing four years ago. It is a most excellent reason.

If my hon. and learned Friend had looked at the debate four years ago, he would have found that it only referred to the appointment of judges outside judicial spheres.

I am sorry I have not had the opportunity of reading that Debate. If I had known that by looking back through the volumes of the OFFICIAL REPORT for four years 1 should have discovered that Debate, of course I should have spent happy hours in perusing what my right hon. Friend had said, but though, unluckily, I was deprived of that privilege, I have listened to him now with, perhaps, added satisfaction; and I hope it will be quite within his powers, to be here to repeat it four years hence, and I hope also that I, at any rate, may be amongst those here to listen to him with the same satisfaction. But what I want to point out is that it ought to be almost sufficient to state the fact that there is a shortage of Judges to make everybody agree that that shortage should income to an end. I believe everybody in this House and in the country agrees that we have the most wonderful judicial system in the world. I speak with some experience of judicial systems in other countries, and there is none to compare with the judicial system here, either in our procedure or in the personality of His Majesty's Judges. Every Englishman is proud to feel that there is a deep-seated sense of justice in this country. Consequently, if there is the denial of justice that inevitably follows a shortage in the judicial system, it rests with every man to repair it, and to repair it at the earliest possible moment. It is no good having the best Judges in the world, or the best procedure in the world, if there is delay, and people are driven, as the right hon. Gentleman opposite pointed out, into arbitration which, after all, may be satisfactory and on occasions next to the best. Those who have a desire to go to law are entitled to the services of His Majesty's Judges, and if there is such delay that in order to get their disputes settled they must refer them to arbitration it is a matter of national misfortune, because they are entitled to the service of the best intellects that this land can produce.

My right hon. Friend has said a good deal about the re-arrangement of the circuits. They have been tinkered at over and over again. Any curtailment of the system is met by cogent observations such as those which have fallen from the hon. and learned Member for Denbigh (Mr. Ellis Davies), namely, that if Judges do not go sufficiently often to each circuit town it is a denial of justice to that locality. If you send more Judges, you deplete the Judges in London. We cannot overlook the needs of these times, with all the new questions which constantly come before the Courts, and we must provide for a judiciary sufficient numerically to deal with the questions which are cropping up every day and almost every hour. Something has been said about shortening the long vacation, and I want to point this out to the House. The judicial system in England is different from that of all other countries. In most foreign countries the judiciary is a branch of the Civil Service and men work their way up and ultimately become Judges just as, in the Civil Service here, they become chiefs of Departments. Our system is different altogether. We choose our Judges from men practising at the Bar, and I think that is an advantage, because you get men of the world, a number of them men who have served their time in this House of Commons and have gained the invaluable experience of the world which service in this House gives. Consequently, we bring to the judicial office men with wide experience who have known the rough and tumble of the Bar and of advocacy and the difficulties that have to be contended with, and who have had personal experience of dealing with witnesses; we recruit men highly qualified for the position they are going to occupy.

But this system has one disadvantage, which is that by staffing the judiciary in that way you cannot get very young men. You must expect to appoint as a Judge a man who, if he is not in the evening of life is at any rate generally passing the meridian of his life. If you make up your machinery in that way you must not overwork it. If you do, you do the least economical thing, because you "dock" him of the holiday to which he is entitled out of consideration for his health and his capacity for mental work, and the only result is to impair the efficiency of your machinery. You substitute for a good and virile Judge one who is- becoming tired and is struggling with the effort to perform his duties. In my humble submission, therefore, it would be a great mistake to put more work upon the Judges than they have to do at the present time. Very likely there are present hon. Members of this House who have sat in some judicial capacity, such as Chairman of Quarter Sessions, or some office like that. Nobody will deny that the strain of that work is very considerable, and if they, sitting perhaps only for one day, feel the strain, what must the strain be upon a Judge who is sitting day after day with grave responsibilities in his hands— sometimes people's lives, often their whole future existence, their ruin or their saving in his hands? They have counsel coming before them primed with cases on the one side and primed with cases on the other, and the Judge has to decide between the two, has to pick the law here and there— we have no code, and he has to pick the law out of this case and of that, and to pick it with a sense of responsibility, knowing that he has at his mercy the future of those who have come before him.

To any conscientious man that brings a great strain, and if we make the strain upon the Judges excessive, we are doing the least economical and most unwise thing. In these days litigation has increased immensely. Something has been said about the Divorce Courts. Owing to a recent ruling, divorce cases are now tried on circuit as well as in London, which adds immensely to the work of the Judges of Assize. Fortunately, we now have three Judges in the Divorce Court here in London, which is a matter for great congratulation. Prior to that, one of the Common Law Judges was constantly borrowed and sent into that Court, thereby delaying the work in the other Court from which he came. The appointment of a third Judge has proved a great success and has brought into our Courts many litigants from abroad who are quite willing to submit their causes to the arbitrament of an English Court, because they have confidence in it. I venture to suggest that this House would be doing not only a useful and patriotic, but an economical and common-sense thing in approving this Resolution, and approving it at the earliest possible moment.

I think that the Government were quite right in ap- proaching this Address with a certain amount of hesitancy and that degree of hesitancy must have been accentuated by the thought that it would meet, on this occasion as upon others, with the kind of pusillanimous pomposity which is associated with the right hon. and learned Gentleman who in such felicitous terms has offered opposition to this Resolution. I want to say a few words in reference to the argument used about the shortening of the Long Vacation. I am aware that this point has already been dealt with by the hon. and learned Member for Bassetlaw (Sir E. Hume-Williams). The other argument which has been used is in reference to the relegation to the County Court of certain matters which are now dealt with in the Supreme Court. My view is that you cannot expand the machinery of the County Court until the Judges are a great deal more adequatetly paid. Those who practice in the County Courts and have had experience there know that those Courts are already considerably strained both as regards the number of cases tried and the actual capacity of the Judges to perform their duty.

May I instance a County Court in the London area where for over nine years I have had to go on occasions. During the whole of those nine years I do not recollect a single occasion on which the case I have been engaged in has succeeded in being tried on the day put down for hearing. I think that is an indication of the strain imposed on County Court Judges, and something will have to be done to disseminate the work and get the best people to deal with these matters. We want a larger number of people to try County Court cases.

I do not wish to cavil at this very modest Motion for an Address which has been presented to the House, but I wish to express my regret that the Government have not taken their courage in both hands and endeavoured to make this a permanent matter instead of allowing this interminable wrangle which occurs on very occasion when an addition has to be made to the Bench either on account of death or on account of over-work of the members of the Bench. Instead of that course, I think we should at long last face the problem that all is not well with the state of the judicial system in this country; that it wants considerably strengthening in personnel and requires a great deal better remuneration if it is to maintain the very high standard which it has attained in the past.

9.0 p.m.

At considerable risk to one who practises as I do, I feel it my duty to bring a few facts before the House,, because I do not think hon. Members are fully seized of the present position. We have heard something about the Long Vacation, and it has been suggested that it should be shortened. Is it realised in this House that you can only induce people to join the bench because they have certain favours such as the Long Vacation. In regard to the bench, things are pretty much on the same scale as they were 100 years ago, although in the meantime the Income Tax and Super-tax have come to bless us, and the cost of living has immensely increased. As a matter of fact, a judge at the present moment is in what I might call 30 per cent. of the position he enjoyed in 1840. That may be right or wrong. It may be that in 1840 a judge was placed in a position he ought never to have occupied, but that position should not have been derogated from by a side wind merely allowing his position to be eroded away from him while the rest of the country has gone on prospering to an enormous extent. How does that position affect the work? The right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Ealing (Sir H. Nield) mentioned that a great deal of legal work was now going to arbitration. I refer to that in support of my case. The fact is that owing to the delays occurring in the Law Courts at present litigants often find it necessary to withdraw from the judicial arena work which would otherwise go there, and they submit it to arbitration. That cannot be a satisfactory state of things even to the morbid mind of the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Ealing.

On a point of Order, Mr. Chairman, I ask for your protection. This is the second time the hon. Member has used words which are most inappropriate and are certainly insulting.

It is hardly for the Chair to decide what is appropriate-or inappropriate, but I have heard nothing which has gone beyond the bounds of Parliamentary precedent.

Quite apart from the question whether Parliamentary precedents have been exceeded, I do not wish to hurt the feelings of the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Ealing more than Parliamentary decorum permits, and I will not use such adjectives. This question of arbitration is of some importance. People are willing to pay large fees in order to go to arbitration, because they can get a great deal more speedy trial than in the Royal Courts of Justice, and I think that derogates from the whole dignity of the bench and the judicial system. There is in it a subconscious reflection on what is believed to be a decline, owing to the age of the judges, in the efficiency of the bench itself. I do not believe that that sub-conscious belief is justified, but people will submit their cases to highly paid arbitrators who receive fees almost commensurate with judges' salaries, and they deal with matters which in the ordinary course would come before the bench.

This means that the Law Courts do not receive a revenue which would otherwise go to meet the expenses and overhead charges which the Law Courts have to bear. In this matter, of course, the Bar does not suffer, because those who are chosen to arbitrate belong to the Bar; but, as regards the Judges, I feel that it is necessary to take up a point to which the hon. and learned Member for Bassetlaw referred. It is true that the judicial system in this country results in the setting up of Judges of different ages, but you find that anywhere in the world, and it is inherent in the system that they must come to the Bench at a greater age than in those places where they are recruited from the Civil Service. The fact remains that, owing to the inadequacy of the remuneration, and the derogation from their dignity which occurs in debates when any of them have to be replaced, there is no doubt that the Bench is being looked upon more as a respite from labour after an exacting career has taken a heavy toll of a man's energies than was the case 20 years ago. The Bench has not the same attraction for men who are in the zenith of a great career that it used to have 20 years ago.

What is the result of that? These things must be faced. They are difficult and delicate for any member of the Bar to speak of, and they are difficult and delicate for any Member of the House of Commons, with his responsibility, to have to refer to; but undoubtedly there is a tendency, which might increase in the future, for Judges to refrain from laying down a burden which has lain on them for 60 years or more of professional life, because those same Judges have been elevated to their position at an age when they already come within measurable distance of the allotted span of man. That is reflected the whole way through the Bench. I had the curiosity this afternoon to look at the ages of the judiciary in this country, in the volumes appropriate for that interesting inquiry, and it may be of interest to the House to know that the House of Lords, as at present constituted, has an average age of 81; the Lords of Appeal in Ordinary are of an average age of 74—

This Motion refers to the King's Bench alone. I do not think a general criticism on the judicial system is in order now.

I did not intend it to be a criticism, and I wish to make it clear at once that I do not suggest any criticism either of the personnel or of the tribunals. What my argument was leading to was that there is a steady tendency towards a rather higher age on the part of all the tribunals than that which the very system that we have renders, as my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Bassetlaw said, necessary; and it would be a disaster if, without justice—for it would be without justice—the Bench came to be looked upon as having suffered from what I venture to say is the parsimonious tendency of the present time. I do not think that these periodic Motions do any good to the Bench. I am perfectly certain that the Government would find that they were hammering at an open door if they took their courage in their hands and said that the time has come for a complete overhaul of the whole thing, beginning at the top. You cannot expect to attract easily the very best men in the zenith of their powers as long as the salaries remain at the same scale as they were 100 years ago. You may get the best men, but you may get them just at that moment when they begin to think that, perhaps, something less of effort than that which has been necessary to carry them to the summit of their career would now be appropriate to them for the rest of their lives; and that, in my feeling, is not the disposition in which you ought to seek to attract men to the Bench.

You cannot expect to extend the jurisdiction of the County Courts in the way in which it should be extended as long as you crimp and cramp the pay of the County Court Judges in the way in which it is crimped and cramped at the present time. It is no use talking of extending their jurisdiction unless you put their pay on to such a scale that you can expect to attract the very best men, and so to extend the work that is being done in the County Courts. Following out the same reasoning, it is not the slightest bit of good attempting to cut down the Long Vacation, as has been suggested, in the present state of affairs. Possibly, if the Judges were given £7,500 or £10,000 a year, you would get men who would be prepared to undertake that sacrifice of leisure which would result from a shortening of the Long Vacation, on account of the improvement of their position. I cannot help feeling that the view that is constantly predominant, that a Judge ought always to be at his job, is at the root of a good deal of the difficulties that beset this and every other Government. Why should not a Judge occasionally find that his list dries up, and that he can go and have a game of golf? In any other walk of life, if a man performs his job, he may get out into the fresh air. But with these recurring Debates, with these recurring inquiries as to exactly how much work a Judge is doing, you get a false atmosphere, and you derogate from the normal freedom of life which I am quite sure ought to be permitted to anybody performing functions so distinguished as those of a Judge of the King's Bench Division.

For these reasons, not only do I wholeheartedly support this Address, but I regret very much that it does not go a great deal further. I have pointed out, with some distress to myself and with great regret, the reasons why I think it will be necessary, at some stage or other, if we are going to uphold the dignity and position which the Bench has always enjoyed in this country, to have a much more thorough overhaul than has been contemplated up to the present time; but to come here tinkering time after time, simply because one or two extra Judges are necessary, with the question of the Long Vacation and problems of that kind, does not deal with the fundamentals of the situation at all. They have to be faced, and I hope, now that the Government are asking for these two Judges, they will take steps to consider what else is necessary in order to consolidate the position of the judiciary.

Like all of the previous speakers, with the exception of the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Ealing (Sir H. Nield), I also wholeheartedly support the Address which has been moved by the Attorney-General. The arguments of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ealing were certainly not very convincing, and I think they seemed less convincing even to himself as he went on. He began by saying that he was prepared to stand alone, but, towards the conclusion of his speech, he-departed from that bold and brave position, and was quite content with asking the Government for an inquiry into the circumstances. As the Attorney-General said, it cannot be sound economy to delay the administration of justice to such an extent that a number of cases have to wait for months before they can be brought before a Judge for hearing, but such delay is taking place, not only in London but, as has been said, in the country too. I only rise in this Debate because it provides me with the opportunity of making an appeal, which I have made before, for dealing with the whole question of the circuit system.

The right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Ealing cited a speech delivered by, I think, Mr. Justice MacKinnon, at Carmarthen, complaining of the waste of time which takes place on some circuits, particularly in rural areas. It is true that that situation has been met in some degree by the Administration of Justice Act, 1925, under which the Lord Chief Justice and the Lord Chancellor can, if there is not sufficient work at a particular assize town, transfer such work as there is to another assize town; but that remodelling of the circuit system is a very unsatisfactory way of dealing with the matter. To take the case, to which reference has been made, of Cardigan, the county which I have the honour to represent in this House, the work from Haverford west and Cardigan is conducted, us things now stand, in Carmarthen, and that is the only way in which it will be remodelled if the remodelling takes place in accordance with the Act of 1925. Within my own Division there is the only University Law School in the whole of West Wales, and, if regrouping is to take place, my suggestion is that it would be much more satisfactory if it were to take place along the lines suggested by the Committee presided over some years ago by Mr. Justice Rigby Swift. That Committee suggested remodelling, but in a different way, so that the grouping would take cognisance of the fact that the new developments due to increased population would be met by the assize town, possibly, being altered, but the grouping would certainly be different from that provided in the Act of 1925.

Another important point that has been raised is the language question. It is true that, as far as the appointment of County Court Judges in Wales is concerned, it is the custom now to appoint Judges who speak Welsh, but that custom could be very well extended to the High Court branch. At any rate there should be upon the High Court bench a Judge who is conversant with the Welsh language. I might cite for the benefit of the Attorney-General an experience that befell me last year. It fell to my lot to address a jury in a criminal trial. The case lasted the whole day. Fortunately, I was appearing for the defence, and equally fortunately obtained the verdict, but after leaving the Court a member of the jury who had been listening all day to what I had to say, who was practically a monoglot Welshman, came to me and said, "I should much prefer hearing you speak in Welsh. I did not understand a word that was said by you or by anyone, either by the Judge or any of the counsel on one side or the other." The speeches of counsel, of course, are not interpreted, and in this case clearly a member of the jury did not understand a word that had been uttered by either of the counsel or the direction of the Judge. That is a material point in the administration of justice that the language understood by the people should be the language employed by the Court and by those engaged in the business of the Court.

The hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Luton (Captain O'Connor) who has just sat down referred to the extension of County Court jurisdiction. I think the jurisdiction of County Courts might very well be extended, but it may not be a practical possibility at the moment, because the County Court Judges are probably as much overworked as the High Court Judges themselves. That is certainly true of the towns and the populous areas. It might be a very difficult task at the moment to provide even the necessary buildings for the purpose of extending the County Court system, but it wants extending in both ways, with regard to jurisdiction, and in the present position there is need for modifying the number of County Court Judges and the number of County Courts themselves in order to deal efficiently with their work. But that, perhaps, would he outside this Address. The whole system as it stands wants remodelling. I agree with the hon. and gallant Gentleman for Luton that it is rather undignified to come in this way every two or three years. It may be that in the next year, or in the next two years, the Attorney-General may have to move another address if a vacancy occurs by death or resignation.

The Attorney-General might be forced to come here to bring the number up again.

I was only addressing myself to the statement that if anything happened in the next 12 months another Address might be moved.

Supposing something happens, either by the resignation or the death of a Judge, during the next 12 months and the pressure of work remains what it is to-day, it might still be necessary to appoint one or two additional Judges to bring the number up.

It would not be necessary until 12 months had elapsed from the passing of the Resolution.

I am obliged to the hon. and learned Gentleman. It might be necessary after the lapse of 12 months. That is the point. That is rather an undignified procedure. It would be very much better if the whole system were overhauled and put upon a proper basis. The independence of the bench would be better safeguarded than it is at present. In the circumstances I agree with all the previous speakers, with one exception, and in the interests of the litigants and in the interests of justice I must support the Address.

I think it was the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Ealing (Sir H, Nield) who suggested that Judges of the Chancery Division should assist in the work of the King's Bench Division. I sincerely hope in the interests of the high tradition of efficiency of our judiciary that nothing of that sort will happen.

I read from a Debate in another place the suggestion which came from Lord Buckmaster.

I do not mind where it came from. The reference was made and I want to say a word on the point. In these days there is a natural tendency more and more to a separation between Chancery Law and the law administered in the King's Bench Division. Although there are very many very great lawyers who would be capable of acting in both, it is not always the case and everyone who practises or appears in those Courts will know that there are many excellent Judges in the Chancery Division whom one would be very sorry to see having to do some of the work of the Judges in the King's Bench Division. Many lawyers will remember the story of a very distinguished Chancery Judge who died some years ago who once had to go on Assize. He tried a case of murder and, in summing up, he called the attention of the jury to what he considered a remarkable omission on the part of counsel, that they made no reference to the fact that the prisoner was said to have exclaimed, "Where is my bloody shirt?" and he said, "If the prisoner's shirt was bloody how had it become bloody, and why was it that counsel took no notice of that expression?" That may be quoted as the case of a very great Chancery Judge who was largely out of place when doing work in the King's Bench Division. We do not want that kind of thing to occur again.

Another matter that has been referred to is the way in which litigants, or perhaps I should say should-be litigants, have been driven to arbitration instead of to the Court. That is a matter to be deprecated in the interests of the parties themselves as well as in the interests of. the law of the country. There are, of course, many cases of what one might call friendly disputes where arbitration which might be conducted in a very informal manner, would be by far the best method of settlement. Unfortunately of late years it has been in some of the more serious cases, which undoubtedly ought to have been decided by the courts, where litigants have been driven to arbitration. They have been driven to a course which is not less expensive, because arbitration very probably costs even more than it would have cost them in the High Courts. Unfortunately, one of the results is that you naturally get decisions which are not so good, and the commercial community generally find themselves flooded by decisions in cases by arbitration, differing from the decisions by Judges of the High Court in somewhat similar cases. That tends to confusion as to the general idea of the law in the minds of the business and commercial people of the country.

There is only one more word which I wish to say on the question of economy. I want the House to remember one point. Economy or—if I may put it so—the financial interests of the country, do not demand merely the cutting down of Government expenditure. They demand the conserving of the wealth of the people of this country, and there is no doubt about it that the arrears in the Law Courts and the delays in bringing on cases for hearing have caused very serious loss in business circles in recent times. It is for these reasons that I would add that as one answer in addition to what seemed to me the convincing answers already given by the Attorney-General to the question of any argument of economy against the expense. I, as others have done, heartily support the Motion and hope that the judges wil be appointed as soon as possible after the Address has been presented.

Question put, and agreed to.

Resolved,

"That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, representing that the state of business in the King's Bench Division requires that vacancies (not exceeding two) should be filled in the number of Puisne Judges, of the King's Bench Division, notwithstanding that the number of those Judges amounts to 15 or upwards, and praying that His Majesty will be graciously pleased to fill such vacancies accordingly, in pursuance of the Supreme Court of Judicature (Consolidation) Act, 1925."—

To be presented by Privy Councillors or Members of His Majesty's Household .

Estimates

Ordered, That a Select Committee be appointed to examine such of the Estimates presented to this House as may seem fit to the Committee, and to suggest the form in which the Estimates shall be presented for examination, and to report what, if any, economies, consistent with the policy implied in those Estimates, may be effected therein:

Ordered, That the Committee do consist of Twenty-eight Members:

Mr. Ammon, Major Astor, Mr. Walter Baker, Mr. Bennett, Captain Bourne, Mr. Brocklebank, Mr. Charleton, Brigadier-General Charteris, Mr. Dalton, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Frederick Hall, Mr. Hannon, Captain Loder, Sir Malcolm Macnaghten, Sir John Marriott, Mr. Wardlaw-Milne, Mr. Geoffrey Peto, Sir Philip Pilditch, Mr. Potts, Mr. Ramsden, Lieut. - Colonel Spender - Clay, Mr. Strauss, Mr. Mosley, Colonel Vaughan-Morgan, Mr. Wiggins, Commander Williams, Mr. Thomas Williams, Mr. Roy Wilson, and Colonel Woodcock nominated Members of the Committee:

Ordered, That Seven be the quorum of the Committee:

Ordered,. That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers and records, and to sit notwithstanding any Adjournment of the House.

Ordered, That the Committee have power, if they so determine, to appoint one or more Sub-Committees, and in that event to apportion the subjects referred to the Committee between the Sub-Committees, any of which shall have the full powers of the undivided Committee; and that four shall be the quorum of any of the Sub-Committees.

Ordered, That the Committee do report any evidence taken by the Committee or by any of the Sub-Committees to the House.—[ Sir G. Hennessy .]

Public Accounts

Ordered, That the Committee of Public Accounts do consist of fifteen Members:

Mr. Walter Baker, Mr. Briggs, Captain Crookshank, Mr. Ellis,. Mr. Gillett, Mr. William Graham, Sir Robert Hamilton, Mr. Cyril Lloyd, Sir Malcolm Macnaghten, Sir John Marriott, Mr. Pethick-Lawrence, Sir Assheton Pownall, Major Salmon, Mr. Arthur Michael Samuel and Mr. Roy Wilson nominated members of the Committee.

Ordered, That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers and records.

Ordered, That five be the quorum.—[ .Sir G. Hennessy .]

House of Commons (Kitchen and Refreshment Rooms),

Ordered, That a Select Committee be appointed to control the arrangements for the Kitchen and Refreshment Rooms in the department of the Serjeant-at-Arms attending this House.

Ordered, That the Committee do consist of Seventeen Members:

Sir James Agg-Gardner, Mr. Compton, Sir Geoffrey Butler, Sir Nicholas Grattan-Doyle, Mr. Dunnico, Sir Park Goff, Mr. George Harvey, Sir George Hennessy, Lieut.-General Sir Aylmer Hunter-Weston, Major-General Sir Robert Hutchison, Mr. Kirkwood, Mr. Mac-pherson, Sir Kenneth Murchison, Sir Herbert Nield, Mrs. Philipson, Lieut.-Colonel Lambert Ward, and Miss Wilkinson nominated Members of the Committee.

Ordered, That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers, and records:

Ordered, That Three be the quorum.— —[ Sir G. Hennessy .]

Adjournment

Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[ Sir G. Hennessy .]

Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-Eight Minutes before Tea o'clock.