House of Commons
Monday, July 16, 1928
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
Private Business
Greenock and Port Glasgow Tramways Company Bill [ Lords ],
Read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments.
Maidenhead Water Bill [ Lords ],
Read the Third time, and passed, without Amendment.
Tottenham and District Gas Bill [ Lords ],
Read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments.
Sheffield Corporation Bill [ Lords ],
As amended, considered; Amendments made; Bill to be read the Third time.
North Metropolitan Electric Power Supply (Consolidation) Bill [ Lords ],
Read a Second time:
Ordered, That the Standing Orders relative to the Committal stage of Private Bills be suspended.
Ordered, That the Bill do lie upon the Table.—[ The Chairman of Ways and Means. ]
Oral Answers to Questions
India
Calcutta, Disturbances
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether the views of the Government of India and the Government of Bengal have been received regarding the firing which took place on the railway strikers in Calcutta on the 28th of March last; and is he now in a position to make a statement on the subject?
I hope to be in a position to make a full statement in a few days. I will then notify the hon. Member, and perhaps he will put down a further question, so that the information will be available to the House.
Films
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether the Report has been received from the Committee appointed by the Governor-General in Council to consider the matter of the production and exhibition of cinematograph films in India; and can he give the House particulars?
My Noble Friend has not yet received the Report.
Can the Noble Lord say whether the Secretary of State has made any representations to the Government of India to see whether they will adopt the principles of the legislation which has recently been passed in relation to this subject in this country?
I do not see what that has to do with the question on the Paper. The hon. Gentleman asked me whether the Report had been received, and that is the question that I have answered.
I would like to know whether any representations have been made suggesting the putting into force of the provisions of the Cinematograph Films Bill?
Perhaps the hon. Member will put that question down; obviously it does not arise out of this one. I cannot answer it out of my head, because I should have to refer to the papers.
Coal-Mining Royalties
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India what is the average royalty per ton of coal in the Ramganj, the Shairia, the Bokharo, and the Giridih coalfields of India, respectively?
TOTAL NUMBER OF FATAL ACCIDENTS due to falls of roofs or sides in coal mines and of persons killed in such accidents in each of the years 1920–1926. — Number of Accidents. Deaths. Falls of Roofs. Falls of Sides. Total. Falls of Roofs. Falls of Sides. Total. 1920 38 24 62 45 26 71 1921 58 57 115 75 75 150 1922 47 48 95 53 52 105 1923 58 55 113 89 77 166 1924 65 42 107 86 44 130 1925 47 39 86 57 50 107 1926 37 39 76 46 44 90
Mining Inspectorate
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India what is the total number of Government inspectors of mines employed by the Government of India; and whether the number of inspectors so employed is
My Noble Friend has not the materials for a reply, but will ask the Government of India to supply such information as is available.
Colliery Accidents
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India what is the total number of fatal accidents which have occurred in the coal mines of India attributed to subsidences arising out of working coal-pillars in each of the years 1920 to 1927, inclusive; and what was the total number of persons killed in each of these years due to such accidents?
As the answer is partly in tabular form, I will, with hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the answer:
The statistics give the total number of fatal accidents due to falls of roof or sides (see the following table), and do not show separately how many of this total arose out of working coal pillars, but the reports for 1925 and 1926 indicate that in those years the fatal accidents attributable to the latter cause were 7 and 18 respectively, out of 86 and 76 due to falls of roof and sides in coal mines.
adequate, in view of the distances they have to travel to inspect the numerous and scattered coalfields and other mineral undertakings in India?
The number is 10, and, so far as my Noble Friend is aware, it is not considered inadequate. In 1926, all the important mines were inspected, and many of them several times.
Is the Noble Lord aware that there are 722 coal mines alone in India; that fatal accidents are frequent, and that it is very vital that inspectors should appear as soon as possible after an accident; and can we have some assurance that there will be sufficient inspectors?
That is really a matter for the local Governments. I am aware of the figure that the hon. Member has mentioned, but I am informed that, of these 722 coal mines, 660 were inspected last year, and that the total number of inspections was 1,700.
The number of inspections is not the vital point; the vital thing is that, when a fatal accident occurs, inspectors should appear as soon as possible after the occurrence.
I think that that is really a matter which should be dealt with in the Councils and Assembly in India rather than in this House, but I will bring the hon. Gentleman's view to the notice of my Noble Friend.
Railway Accident (Malicious Tampering)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he has any further information with regard to the malicious wrecking of a train near Calcutta by which 18 persons have lost their lives; and whether the culprits have yet been apprehended?
A preliminary inquiry indicates that the accident was due to malicious tampering with the permanent way. No arrests have so far been made, but a reward of Rs.10,000 has been offered for information leading to the detection and conviction of the perpetrators.
Has my Noble Friend's attention been drawn to statements in the native Press which said that Europeans had been killing the wounded, and can he not take steps to prevent the issue of such atrocious libels?
If any statements of the kind have been made, I am sure they will be properly dealt with by the authorities in India. I have not seen them, but I am sure that they are without any foundation.
Is this the accident that occurred at a place called Belur, and is the Noble Lord aware that statements of a very disquieting nature have appeared, not in native newspapers alone, but in the "Statesman" and in "Forward," two papers which are printed in English; and will he have them investigated, as the charges are very serious?
The hon. and gallant Member has been misinformed; the accident in question occurred at Dankuni, near Howrah. I have seen Press reports of charges which appeared in some of the less reputable Indian newspapers, and counter-charges made by the "Statesman." The charge made in the Indian newspapers was that wounded had been interfered with by some British, and the charge made subsequently in the "Statesman" was that, when a European went to the help of the wounded Indians, and endeavoured to rescue them, he was impeded by Indians. No doubt the whole question will receive the attention of the local authorities at the inquiry.
Has the Noble Lord's attention been drawn to the very important leading article in the "Manchester Guardian" to-day dealing with this very subject, and have not the Bengal Government taken steps to bring the people concerned to account?
Hon. Gentlemen on both sides of the House seem to think it is my business to read all newspaper articles, whether printed in India or in this country. I can assure them that these very important matters will receive full consideration at the inquiry which will be held.
Bribery Charges, Rangoon
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he is taking any action, and, if so, what, in connection with the Rangoon bribery cases, in connection with which Mr. Reddi has been acquitted of libel?
My Noble Friend has no official information of the facts of the case, but the matter is within the competence of the local authorities, and he has no reason to doubt that it will be dealt with suitably.
Is it quite clear that the two officials of the Port Trust who have been arraigned for bribery are not members of the Indian Civil Service or public officials?
I could not answer that question without notice. All that I know is that these two gentlemen are employés of the Rangoon Port, and, under the Act of Parliament constituting that body, the Commissioners have full power to dismiss them.
Banking (Inquiry)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether now that the Agricultural Commission has reported it is intended to set up the Banking Commission which has been promised?
As the right hon. and gallant Member is aware, the Report of the Royal Commission on Agriculture has only recently been received by the Government of India. I am not aware what view the Government of India take as to the bearing of the Report on the suggested banking inquiry, in regard to which I would refer the right hon. and gallant Gentleman to the reply I gave to the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury) on 8th December last.
Is the Noble Lord aware that the Banking Commission has again and again been put off until the Agricultural Commission reported? I presume he is also aware that in the Report of the Agricultural Commission great stress is laid upon the advantages of active co-operation?
Yes, I am aware of both those facts, but, as I pointed out in my original reply, this Report was only recently received by the Government of India, and I am not yet in a position to make any statement as to their policy on the Report?
No-Tax Campaign, Bardoli Taluka
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India if he can give the number of holdings in the Bardoli Taluka affected by the present dispute, and the number which respectively consist of five acres or less, and of from five to 25 acres; and whether any of the land seized by Government agents belongs to small agriculturists, and, if so, how much?
I have not the detailed particulars asked for in the first part of the question, nor have I figures of forfeitures up to date; but by the middle of May some 1,600 acres had been forfeited, almost all of which belonged to bania (i.e., moneylenders) non-agriculturists.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether the Government of India is prepared to suggest that a committee of inquiry be appointed to deal with the Bardoli dispute, the personnel to be such as will command the confidence of all who are directly concerned in that dispute?
The Government of India and the Bombay Government are now in consultation as to the steps to be taken to deal with the situation in Bardoli, and I am not prepared to anticipate their decision.
Assessment Revision, Bombay
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India if he is aware that the Bombay Legislative Council passed, in March, 1924, a resolution to the effect that a committee be appointed to consider the question of regulating the revision of assessment by legislation, and that no revision be proceeded with and no new rates under any revised settlement be introduced till such legislation is brought into effect; and why the latter part of this resolution has been disregarded?
It is the case that the resolution referred to was passed by the Bombay Legislative Council. The reasons why the Provincial Government could not accept the latter part of the resolution are clearly stated on pages 1301–2 of the report of the debate, copy of which was placed in the Library.
Prisoners
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India how many persons, if any, have been arrested under Regulation 111 of 1818 in India during the last six months; and how long it is proposed to keep such persons under restraint without trial?
Three persons. As has often been explained, I regret that it is impossible to give a general answer to the second part of the question.
Can the Noble Lord give me the names of the three persons?
The hon. Member did not ask for the names, but I believe they are an ex-Maharajah and two Sikhs who got into trouble at Shanghai.
When is there a possibility of these people ever being released or given some form of public trial?
I have answered that question very fully in debate on more than one occasion and given the reason why it is necessary to put into operation these Regulations. I have nothing to add to what I have previously said.
Imam of the Yemen
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he proposes to reopen negotiations with the Imam of the Yemen; whether the air raids carried out to attempt to enforce the evacuation of Dthala have ceased; and whether he will consider inviting the Imam to send representatives to a conference in London to discuss outstanding matters?
My latest information, received during the last two days, is that, as a result of the pressure brought to bear upon him, the Imam has been expelled from Dthala. The new situation thus created is engaging the active attention of His Majesty's Government.
Is it a fact that raids have been carried out at Hodeida, in the Red Sea, and does the Minister really think a bombing policy is good for British trade?
I understand no raid has been carried out at Hodeida. This is the first I have heard of it. Certainly that is not the object. Where armed raiders have occupied villages and farms of friendlies and our protected persons, we have no option but to drive them out and reinstate our people.
Is it a fact that Dthala has been occupied for about seven years?
No. Only off and on.
Does this mean that the territory we protect has been evacuated, and in that case will negotiations now be possible, so that we can have peace in that part of the world?
No, the opposite is true. We have not evacuated our Protectorate. We have driven the invaders out of a portion of the Protectorate.
That is not what I asked. Have the raiders now evacuated the country we protect?
Not yet out of the whole of it, but they are out of Dthala.
Cuba (Jamaicans)
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been called to the reports from Cuba of the present plight of a large number of Jamaicans in that island; whether there have been any deportations, and, if so, for what reason; and whether efforts are being made to encourage this migration of Jamaicans from Cuba to other tropical countries, such as British Honduras and British Guiana, where labour is much needed?
My only information with regard to the reports referred to is derived from the Jamaican Press, which suggests that they are greatly exaggerated. As there is some ground for anticipating a considerable reduction in the Cuban demand for labour, the Government of Jamaica are at present in communication with the Governments of British Guiana and British Honduras with regard to the possibility of finding employment for Jamaicans in these Colonies. I need hardly say that my right hon. Friend welcomes the suggestion, and that he will be glad to give it every encour- agement, provided that certain inherent difficulties can be overcome.
Is it not a fact that there have been deportations of Jamaicans from Cuba?
I believe that is so. There have been some.
Haifa Harbour Scheme
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies with reference to the Haifa harbour tenders, whether any and, if so, what stipulations are to be made with reference to the payment of wages upon which European Jews can live, or whether the importation of labour from Egypt or elsewhere is contemplated.
Firms invited to tender will be informed that fair conditions of labour will be required in pursuance of Section 1 (4) of the Palestine and East Africa Loans Act, 1926.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say precisely how fair conditions of wages are defined?
It is quite impossible, in submitting a proposition to tender, to foresee every detail. When we come to arrange the actual terms of the tender with the successful firm, detailed questions about labour will be gone into.
Will it be possible to employ Arabs on this work, or is it confined to European labour?
I contemplate that some Europeans, some Arabs, some Jews and various people will be employed.
Will any attempt be made to get from the trade unions something in the nature of a standard rate of wages instead of leaving it purely to negotiations between the Government and the contractors?
I must have notice of that Question. I am not aware how far the various trade unions can speak for the whole of the population likely to he employed. There are, of course, the germs of a labour organisation becoming established in the neighbourhood, but that is a detail about which I cannot give any pledge at this stage.
Straits Settlements (Films)
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies why, since the introduction of the Cinematograph Films Act took a final form, the Straits Settlements have changed their view as to its desirability; what is the cause of the alleged shortage of British films available, when the supply is over double that anticipated under the terms of the Imperial Act of Parliament; and what are the varying proportions of films of different nationality shown in that colony.
In 1926 the percentage of films by nationality was divided as follows:—United States, 76; Chinese, 15; British, 8: Italian, 2; other origin, 1. I have not the figures for 1927, but I understand that the percentage of Chinese is now about 25. On the other points I am not in a position to add to the information already given to the noble Lord, but the Governor will be asked for further particulars.
Have any representations been made to the State to increase the use of British films?
I think so. Certainly, it is our endeavour to increase the use of British films in British Dependencies.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say what reply was received to the request?
No, I cannot.
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether there is a film censorship in the Straits Settlements; and, if so, what are the numbers and proportions of those of each country banned by the censors.
A film censorship exists in the Straits Settlements, but I have no detailed information as to the countries of origin of the films banned by the censorship.
Will the right hon. Gentleman be able to secure this information from the Governor?
I do not know. We get an annual report.
Is it not a fact that none of the British films made during the last two years have been banned?
I believe that is the case.
Who compose the Committee who decide on the films that shall be accepted in the Straits Settlements?
The hon. Member had better give me notice.
Royal Navy
Hong Kong Dockyard
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can state the terms under which the naval yard at Hong Kong is held from the Crown, or otherwise the nature of the existing tenure; and whether the present lessees or parties in occupation of it are entitled to dispose of their interest therein without restriction either as to the receipt or application of the purchase money or otherwise?
I have been asked to reply. The naval yard at Hong Kong is wholly occupied by the Admiralty and, in the main, is held upon conditions which would necessitate its return to the Colony on terms to be arranged mutually should it cease to be required for defence purposes.
If the Admiralty decide to give up the naval yard at Hong Kong, will they dispose of it and retain the proceeds?
That seems a purely hypothetical question.
Aircraft Carriers
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty what aircraft carriers have been in home waters or at ports in Great Britain and Ireland during the last three weeks; what carriers are there now; and what is, and has been, their state of readiness for sea and during the last three weeks?
The following aircraft carriers have been in home waters during the past three weeks; the same vessels are still in home waters and their states of readiness are and have been as follows:
Argus. —Refitting at Portsmouth; due to complete 8th August.
Pegasus and Ark Royal. —In reserve at Plymouth and Chatham respectively and at 14 days' notice for sea.
Furious. —Cruising with Atlantic Fleet.
May I ask if His Majesty's Ship "Furious" is cruising with the Atlantic Fleet, and, if so, does it mean that she is in home waters?
She was at Torbay a few days ago. I am not sure where she is at the present moment.
Is she not a 27-knot ship, or thereabouts; and could she not have been sent to Spitzbergen very quickly?
Thereabouts!
Empire Settlement
asked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether his Department has Reports of the welfare of the 1,400 British boys who have gone to Australia in the last three years under the Big Brother movement; and whether he will bring this movement to the attention of the Canadian authorities, in view of the desire of the committee and many British boys to proceed to Canada under similar Big Brother arrangements?
I have been asked to reply to this question. The annual report of the Big Brother movement for the year 1927 shows that the 962 boys who have been admitted to the movement between November, 1925, and September, 1927, are, with few exceptions, satisfactorily settled in Australia. This movement has been brought to the notice of the Dominion authorities in Canada, and I would refer my hon. Friend to my right hon. Friend's answer to a similar question by him on the 26th March. I understand that a representative of the movement is shortly to visit Canada with a view to explaining the aims and objects of the movement.
Irish Grants Committee
asked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether he can give any information as to the date when it is anticipated that the Irish Grants Committee will have completed their investigation of claims and when the final settlement will be made with the claimants; and whether the recommendations of the Irish Grants Committee will be paid in full?
I have been asked, to reply to this question. As I informed my hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Colonel Howard-Bury) on the 9th July, it is expected that the work of the Committee will be completed during the early portion of next year. Until the work of the Committee has made further progress it is not possible for a reply to be given to the inquiry in the latter part of the question.
Will my right hon. Friend say, roughly, how many claims there are still to be disposed of, having regard to the great hardship to sufferers?
I gave the answer to that question on 9th July; I cannot remember the actual figure.
Trade and Commerce
Empire Marketing Board
23 and 24.
asked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs (1) whether the Empire Marketing Board contemplate an. extension of its activities on behalf of manufactured articles produced in Great Britain; and if he will state the nature of the publicity which has already been undertaken on behalf of any branch of productive industrial enterprise;
(2) whether the Empire Marketing Board will entertain proposals for joint publicity effort from city and borough councils and from the chambers of commerce; and if he will arrange a conference between the Board and industrial organisations in order to consider cooperative action?
I have been asked to reply. The Empire Marketing Fund, for reasons which my right hon. Friend has explained in reply to previous questions, is confined by the terms of the Parliamentary Vote to furthering the marketing of Empire products in the United Kingdom. The Board's activities embrace home agricultural produce, but they do not embrace manufactured articles. The Empire Marketing Board would welcome, in the field to which they are limited, the co-operation of the authorities mentioned, and my right hon. Friend has already been in communication with a great number of local authorities to this end. He would, however, hesitate, having regard to the limitations of the Vote which I have indicated, to suggest a special conference such as my hon. Friend proposes.
Is there any sound reason why the operations of the Empire Marketing Board should not be extended to industrial output as well as to agriculture?
Oh, yes. As has been explained very frequently, the terms under which a sum of money was voted by Parliament was settled in consultation with Dominion Prime Ministers and the Dominion Governments at the Imperial Conference. We do not feel at liberty, pending the holding of the next Imperial Conference, to depart from the arrangements then made.
Will my right hon. Friend say what success has attended the operations of the Empire Marketing Board in relation to agriculture in this country?
My hon. Friend should ask the Minister of Agriculture whether he thinks it has been a success or not.
Will the right hon. Gentleman not help British agricultural products by asking the Dominions to reduce their tariffs against us?
Brazil
asked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether a Report on the economic and financial conditions in Brazil is in course of preparation; when this Report will be published; and if the information provided will be brought up to as recent a date as may be convenient?
Owing to a recent change in the occupancy of the Commercial Secretary's post at Rio de Janeiro, it is not expected that the next Report on Brazil will be published before the spring of 1929. The instructions governing these reports require that they shall deal with conditions current at the time of writing.
How does my hon. Friend keep the industrial community of this country informed in the meantime of the requirements of Brazilian trade?
If any commercial man or industrialist in this country cares to ask what are the conditions in that country we are only too glad to help him.
Can the hon. Gentleman present any kind of interim report for the information of the industrialists of the country on the conditions in Brazil?
It is all a question of expense. I think that it is not necessary to burden these representatives with a report more than once a year. Every time you ask them to make a report it holds up other important work. We can get information by writing to our representative abroad and can communicate it to people in this country if they will indicate their wishes.
It is a very serious matter. Is not the latest information in the form of a Commercial Attache's report which was made nearly two years ago now?
Yes, it is.
Safeguarding of Industries (Iron and Steel Trade)
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the demand in the country for the safeguarding of British iron and steel goods, he will consider giving time for the Motion standing in the names of certain hon. Members at present on the Order Paper on this subject—
["That this House, whilst appreciating the relief given generally to productive industry by the Government's rating proposals, nevertheless would urge upon the Government the necessity of saving the Iron and Steel Trade in this country by the immediate application of a safeguarding measure to this important basic trade."]
In view of the state of Parliamentary Business, my right hon. Friend cannot give special facilities for the discussion of the Motion referred to.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that 200 Members of Parliament have signed a petition in favour of the immediate application of Safeguarding to the Iron and Steel Industry, and, in view of the serious condition of these industries, and the increased unemployment therein, will he reconsider the matter?
In view of the fact that a tremendous number of his own supporters in this House are in favour of this particular request, will he not ask the Prime Minister to reconsider his decision? Seeing that 200 Members of Parliament are in favour of it, surely the Government can find time?
Has the right hon. Gentleman seen the deplorable state of affairs recognised in this morning's newspapers in regard to two or three most important iron and steel industries, the Partington Company, and Pearson and Knowles? Will he look into these facts and bring them to the notice of the Prime Minister with a view to following up the suggestion in the question?
Will the right hon. Gentleman give me a reply to my question? I asked whether the Prime Minister will reconsider the point.
Is not the recognised occasion for the Conservative party to commit suicide the Conference in the autumn?
On a point of Order. I put a very respectful request to the Leader of the House. May I have a reply to that question?
The hon. Member has already had a reply.
British Herrings (Import Duties, Poland)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether any representations have been made to Poland regarding a possible reduction of the import duties charged on British herrings?
Yes, Sir. His Majesty's Government have made re- peated representations to the Polish Government on the matter, having regard especially to the fact that the Polish tariff provides for a duty of 15 Zlote per 100 kilogrammes on herrings of the kind normally exported from this country whilst admitting certain other descriptions at a rate of 5 Zlote only. So far the Polish Government have been unwilling to meet our wishes, but the matter is not being lost sight of.
Is it a fact that the Polish Government are giving preference to Norwegian herrings instead of British herrings at the present time? If so, is that in accordance with the trade agreement?
The fact is that the herrings which are charged 15 Zlote are herrings which are only provided by this country, whereas the herrings from other countries go in at a cheaper rate because they are a different type of herring.
Hosiery Latch Needles
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has any information as to the figures of importation of the finer and more costly kinds of hosiery latch needles; and if he can give the latest comparative figures showing the value of the imports of latch needles?
The answer is a long one, and includes a table of figures. My hon. Friend will, accordingly, perhaps agree to my circulating it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Can the hon. Member tell us with reference to the increase which he gave us on Friday if a similar increase is shown in the case of the finer qualities?
I am afraid the quality is not separately shown.
Is the hon. Member aware of the great increase of unemployment in this industry? If I give him particulars, will he see if he can increase the Import Duty?
I shall be glad to receive the particulars.
Following is the answer:
The official classification according to which importers are required to furnish to the Customs authorities particulars of hosiery latch needles does not provide for the separate enumeration of the various grades of these needles. It will be seen, however, from the following table that during 1926, 1927, and the first six months of 1928, the average value per million of the imports into the United Kingdom of hosiery latch needles consigned from North America (that is, Canada and the United States) has been considerably greater than that of the consignments from all other sources; that during the 12 months ended 30th June of this year the average value of the needles consigned from North America was higher than in the preceding 18 months, both actually and also in relation to the average value of needles from other sources; and also that the rate of importation from North America has increased considerably during the present year. In the first half of 1928 over 7,884,000 needles were imported from Canada and nearly 746,000 from the United States. The values of the imports consigned from North America and from all other countries registered in each of the five half-years in the period mentioned are given in the table.
STATEMENT showing the quantities and value of the imports of Hosiery Latch Needles into the United Kingdom during the years 1926 and 1927, and the first six months of 1928, distinguishing the aggregate amounts consigned from Canada and the United States.
Period. From Canada and United States. From all Other Countries. Number. Value. Number. Value. Million. £ Million. £ Year, 1926— Jan.-June 4.3 24,411 12.6 28,003 July-Dec. 3.7 19,892 10.6 24,475 Year, 1927— Jan.-June 5.2 28,134 12.1 24,795 July-Dec. 5.6 38,151 11.6 24,903 Year, 1928— Jan.-June 8.6 54,253 11.7 25,085
Rabbits Bill
asked the Minister of Agriculture what action the Government propose to take in view of the rejection of the Rabbits Bill?
asked the Minister of Agriculture what action he proposes to take in view of the rejection of the Rabbits Bill?
The rejection of the Rabbits Bill in another place is receiving the consideration of the Government, but I am not yet in a position to make any statement in the matter.
In view of the Minister's failure to placate the Upper House by whittling down this Measure, will he attempt to pass it in the original form which he thought necessary in the public interest?
I have said that I am not in a position to make a statement.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether it is now proposed to get on with the reform of the House of Lords?
Will the right hon. Gentleman suggest to the Prime Minister that use may be made of the Parliament Act, so that the Bill may be raised next year, and, if necessary, the year after, and go through automatically?
Scotland
Quarantine Station, Glasgow
asked the Minister of Agriculture if the building of the new quarantine station in Glasgow has yet been commenced; if not, when it is likely to be; and the site which has been chosen?
It has been decided not to build a quarantine station at Glasgow until experience has been obtained of the extent to which the London quarantine station will be utilised.
Tetanus
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is now in a position to make a statement on the Report he has received on post-operation tetanus; and what action he proposes to take?
I regret that I am not yet in a position to add anything to my reply on this subject given to the hon. Member on the 3rd instant.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether, if I put a question down in a fortnight's time, he thinks he will be able to answer it?
Yes, I hope so.
Pensions Office, Glasgow
asked the Minister of Pensions the present rental being charged for the new premises occupied by his staff at Sauchiehall Street, Glasgow, and the rental for the late offices; and if the former has been taken yearly, and, if not, for how long?
I have been asked by the Minister of Pensions to reply to this question. The rental for the new premises occupied by the Ministry of Pensions in Sauchiehall Street is £2,200 per annum and the rent for the late offices was £1,000 per annum; the new premises have been taken on lease until Whit-Sunday, 1938, with an option to the Department to determine at Whit-Sunday, 1933, on 6 months' notice.
May I ask if these are the only premises the Department could get? It seems to be a tremendous rise in rent for premises which are totally inadequate.
I understand that they had the greatest difficulty in finding suitable premises, and these were the only ones which they could get.
Why is it that the Ministry of Pensions always takes offices in the most expensive streets, like Sauchiehall Street, Glasgow, and Bath Street, Glasgow, and Princes Street, Edinburgh, when there are streets behind these which are more suitable for their Aces and where the rent would not be so costly?
I think the hon. Member should give notice of that question.
Factory Inspection
asked the Home Secretary if he has, during the past year, made any improvement in the method of factory inspection in Glasgow and the West of Scotland, particularly where female labour is employed; if he has increased the number of inspectors; and, if not, does he propose to do so in the near future?
No change has been made during the past year in the number of Inspectors in Glasgow and the West of Scotland, and, as I have already informed the hon. Member, I am satisfied that Scotland has a reasonable proportion of the available inspecting staff. I have, however, repeatedly stated that I am not satisfied with the present strength of the Inspectorate, and I am proposing very shortly to set up a Departmental Committee to examine the question. My hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State will be Chairman and the Committee will commence its inquiry in the Autumn.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say who are the members of this Committee of Inquiry?
No, Sir. I have not settled all the names, but I have arranged for my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary to take the Chair, and I hope to get the names settled very shortly.
China
British Claims (Mrs. Johnston)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that Mrs. Johnston, the widow of William Johnston, late chief engineer of the s.s. "Wantung," who was killed in the Yangtse river on the 5th September, 1926, during the occurrence of the Wahnsien incident, has received no compensation for the loss of life of her husband though her claim has been laid before the Nanking Government for some considerable time; can he state what the position is regarding this and other claims lodged in respect of this incident; and what steps the Government is taking to obtain a settlement of such claims?
The claim in question, with others arising out of the same events, was referred by the Consul at Chungking to His Majesty's Minister at Peking, who decided, with my approval, that it was at that time undesirable to present it to the Chinese authorities at Peking or elsewhere. At the moment there is nothing which I can usefully do to secure payment of this claim.
Hong Kong University
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been drawn to the work done by the University of Hong Kong in affording the facilities of a university course of medical, engineering, and general education for Chinese students from all parts of China, greatly to the mutual benefit of Great Britain and of China; that the university is handicapped in its work for lack of adequate funds and is consequently unable to afford those facilities to the extent which would otherwise be the case; that it is anxious to inaugurate a faculty for Chinese but is prevented from doing so by lack of funds; that the university has put in a claim for a grant in pursuance of the provisions of and in accordance with the principles of the China Indemnity Act of 1925; and can he state whether such claim will be approved?
The work of Hong Kong University has been recommended both to the Foreign Office and to the Buxton Advisory Committee established under the Act of 1925. The Committee's Report has been published in Command Paper 2766 of 1926; and on page 21 of the Report it will be seen that the Committee consider that the university should be regarded by the Board of Trustees as fully entitled to ask for grants from the Fund, that its claims should receive the same consideration as would be accorded to those of educational institutions in China, and that the development of the Department of Chinese Studies is especially to be recommended. The university authorities should therefore submit their claim for the consideration of the Board of Trustees as soon as that body has been established.
Boxer Indemnity
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is now in a position to announce the decision of the Government in regard to the allocation of the Boxer Indemnity; and whether any part of the Fund is to go to the University of Hong Kong?
For the first part of this question I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given to the hon. and gallant Member for Gainsborough (Captain Crookshank) on the 4th July; and for the second part, to the answer that I have just given to the hon. Member for South-East Essex (Mr. Looker).
I agree that the reply covers the same point, but I would like to know when it is likely that this Commission will be appointed?
It was explained by my right hon. Friend the other day that, owing to the conditions prevailing in China at the present time, it is very difficult to spend any of this money. Directly we can do so, we shall do so.
Outlawry of War
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether replies have now been received from all His Majesty's Governments in the Dominions on the latest proposals from the United States Government for a treaty outlawing war; what is the nature of the replies so far received; whether the communications by His Majesty's Government and the Dominions on this subject are being made by cable; and when he expects to be in a position to make a definite reply to the United States Government?
The answer to the first part of the question is No, and to the third part, Yes. The views of His Majesty's Government have now been communicated to the Governments of the Dominions and India, and I hope to be in a position to hand our reply to the American Chargé d'Affaires on Wednesday. The replies of the Governments of the Dominions and India will no doubt be published by those Govern- ments in due course. In the meantime I can make no statement in regard to them.
Will that reply be laid in the form of a White Paper, as was done in the case of the previous replies?
The reply will be published in the Press. If it is necessary, I am ready to lay it. It is a mere question of expense.
As the previous reply, with all the reservations and difficulties, was published in the form of a White Paper, surely we can expect also that this will be published as a White Paper?
If the hon. and gallant Gentleman thinks that it will be convenient to have it on record as a White Paper, together with the first reply, I rather agree with him, and I will lay it.
Would it not also be more respectful?
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what Governments have so far signified to His Majesty's Government their readiness to sign the proposed American peace pact?
The French and German Governments.
Can the right hon. Gentleman give the House any explanation why other Governments are able to make up their minds on this very important matter, and why cannot His Majesty's Government do so?
As a matter of fact, His Majesty's Government have made up their minds, but it is necessary for us to communicate with the Dominions. It is not necessary for the French and German Governments to communicate with other Governments of either of those countries.
Has not the Italian Government replied?
If the hon. Member looks at the question, he will see that it asks what Governments have communicated with His Majesty's Government. I have said that the French Government and the German Government have communicated; the Italians have not. I do not deny the statements in the newspapers that they have communicated with Washington, but they have not communicated their reply to us.
League of Nations
Permanent Court of International Justice (Optional Clause)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, having regard to the widespread misunderstanding caused by the unwillingness of His Majesty's Government to sign the Optional Clause of the Statute of the Permanent Court of International Justice, he will issue a White Paper elaborating the reasons on which His Majesty's Government bases its attitude?
It is not clear from the right hon. Gentleman's question whether the misunderstanding which he supposes to exist is domestic or foreign. The views of His Majesty's Government have been stated by me in this House on more than one occasion and were further explained in the observations on the suggested Programme of Work of the Sub-Committee on Security of the Preparatory Committee on Disarmament. This paper has been published. If the right hon. Gentleman thinks that more can usefully be done in either field I shall be glad to confer with him.
In view of the ambiguity which exists as to the opinion of the Dominions, could it be stated that it is not a fact that any of them have raised definite objections to the signature of the Optional Clause?
No, Sir, I cannot say that. That would not be in accordance with the facts, but the views of the Dominions are embodied in the report of the last Imperial Conference.
Earthquake, Bulgaria (Assistance)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can give any information regarding the assistance offered by the Health Section of the League of Nations to the Bul- garian Government in connection with health work amongst the victims of the recent earthquake disaster; whether, seeing that the Council of the League of Nations at its recent session passed a resolution referring with satisfaction to this work and voicing the hope that other health administrations would follow the example of the Hungarian, Polish, Rumanian, and Serb-Croat-Slovene health services in offering their aid to the Bulgarian Administration, he supported the resolution on behalf of His Majesty's Government; and what measures he has taken to carry out this recommendation as far as Great Britain is concerned?
Upon receipt of the news of the earthquake in Bulgaria the services of a member of the Health Section of the League of Nations were offered to the Bulgarian Health Administration to assist in co-ordinating such public health measures as the situation demanded. The offer was accepted and a representative of the Health Section of the League proceeded at once to Sofia. He was fortunate in obtaining the immediate assistance of the Hungarian, Polish, Rumanian and Serb-Croat-Slovene health services in the form of vaccines, sera, mobile laboratories and personnel, whilst a hospital train, fully-equipped, was sent from Poland. In addition a large quantity of sanitary material, including soap and disinfectants, was also sent, as well as funds to be devoted to a vaccination campaign. As a member of the Council I naturally supported the resolution approving this action of the health organisation and expressing the hope that other health administrations might follow the example of those already mentioned. As regards participation in the relief measures by this country, I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to refer to the reply which I made to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Spoor) on the 23rd of May.
Telephone Service
Essex
asked the Postmaster-General whether he can give the number of rural stations in Essex in which telephones have been installed; how many have no telephone installation; and how many have been installed during the past year?
The figures are 19, 58 and 1, respectively.
Is it not desirable that the Post Office should encourage these installations?
Yes, Sir.
Will the Noble Lord take all the steps in his power to encourage the railway authorities to establish these communications at rural stations?
Yes. We are pressing them to do so.
Leaflets and Pamphlets
asked the Postmaster-General whether he will have placed in the Library copies of the pamphlets, leaflets, and posters circulated for the purpose of supplementing the work of the canvassing staff engaged in obtaining new business for the Post Office telephones?
The leaflets, pamphlets, etc., are somewhat numerous, and I think they could not conveniently be placed in the Library. If, however, my hon. Friend so desires, I will have copies sent to him, or will arrange for a set to be available at the Post Office for his inspection.
Can the Noble Lord say the number of the leaflets in a set?
I cannot say offhand, but they are very numerous.
Canvassers
asked the Postmaster-General whether the specially trained staff of over 500 canvassers employed in obtaining new business for the Post Office telephones are directly engaged and under the control of the Post Office; and, if not, by whom are they employed and upon what terms?
Yes, Sir.
Is not the right way to get a spread of telephones to reduce the rates in country districts, instead of canvassing for new subscribers?
I agree with the hon. and learned Member to some extent, but the cost of construction is a deterrent.
Isle of Man
asked the Postmaster-General whether the discussions on the financial conditions of the telephone system between the Isle of Man and the mainland have resulted in agreement; and will the new cable be laid in the next few months?
I am not in a position to add to the reply given to the hon. Member on the 28th ultimo. I do not anticipate that I shall be able to say anything definite until after the Recess.
In view of the difficulties to business by reasons of the absence of this cable, will the Noble Lord hasten the discussions?
Yes. We are doing our best.
Questions
Clearing Office for Enemy Debts
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the cases referred to the Enemy Debts Department and dealt with by Mr. Kramer include the cases of release on the grounds of statelessness settled by compromise by the administrator of Austrian property under the provisions of the Treaty of St. Germain; how many were dealt with by compromise; how many by the intervention of Mr. Samuel Kramer, acting as agent for the applicant; and what is the sum total involved in such releases?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative; to the second part, four; to the third part, none; and to the fourth part, £73,800.
In view of the difficulties which have arisen because of the cases dealt with by the gentleman mentioned in the question, will the Board of Trade have some further investigation made in order to clear up the matter?
The hon. Member did not hear my answer. I will read it again. The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative; to the second part, four; to the third part, none; and to the fourth part, £73,800.
Questions to Ministers
The following Question stood upon the Order Paper in the name Mr. TRURTLE—
54. To ask the Secretary of State for Air if he has any statement to make regarding the proposed new subsidy to Imperial Airways, Limited?
May I ask this question?
The hon. Member has four questions on the Paper, and I struck out the fourth.
I did not ask one question, and I thought I was therefore entitled to put this question.
The hon. Member still has four questions on the Paper.
Airship "Italia" and Captain Amundsen (Assistance)
asked the Secretary of State for Air whether, in his conversations with the Royal Italian and Norwegian Governments on the possibility of sending British assistance to those who have been engaged in rescue work and the succour of the survivors of the crew of the "Italia" and of Captain Amundsen and his companions, he offered to send one of His Majesty's aircraft carriers; if so, with what result; and, if not, will he state the reasons?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative, and the second part does not, therefore, arise. As regards the last part, I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the reply which I gave him on the 28th June.
Yes, but that reply did not give me any reasons at all why an aircraft carrier should not have been sent. All it said was that we had no aeroplanes suitable for ice work. Will he kindly inform me why an aeroplane carrier was not sent?
There are two difficulties in the way. In the first place, an aircraft carrier is not an ice-breaker, and in the second place, the machines on an aircraft carrier have a limited range, and it was an open question whether they would have reached the marooned parties or not. That being so, we were conscious of the difficulties in the way of employing an aircraft carrier. At the same time, in my offer to the Italian Government I did not exclude the possibility of sending an aircraft carrier, but, as they made no request on the subject, I assume that they agreed with our view that an aircraft carrier was not suitable for the work.
When the right hon. Gentleman says that an aircraft carrier is not an icebreaker, is he aware that the French Government sent a cruiser to these waters, which also is not an ice breaker?
Ice Cream
asked the Minister of Health whether he has any evidence indicating that ice cream sold to the public is made of synthetic cream; and whether any steps are taken to prevent this practice?
My right hon. Friend is informed that substances sold as ice-cream do sometimes contain the ingredients of which synthetic cream is composed. Local authorities generally have considered that they could not with advantage take any steps to prevent this practice since there is at present no statutory definition of ice cream.
Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that the basis of a great deal of the ice cream which is sold to the public in this country is lard?
Would it not be better that ice cream should be manufactured out of British products made by British labour rather than out of imported foreign tinned milk?
Education
Institution Schools
asked the President of the Board of Education how many orphanages and/or institutions of a similar character are now, in respect of their school and education arrangements, recognised as public elementary schools; whether it is a condition of their recognition as public elementary schools that when accommodation is available admission should not be refused to any child of school age under compulsion to receive elementary education; and whether any steps are being taken by the Board to ensure that non-provided public elementary schools within the category referred to are available for the public service of education?
The number of institution schools receiving direct grant from the Board under the provisions of Section 25 of the Education Act, 1921, is 46. As regards the second and third parts of the question, the Code of Regulations for Public Elementary Schools applies to these schools subject to the special provisions of Article 25.
Mentally Defective Children
asked the President of the Board of Education whether the Report of the special Committee dealing with mentally defective children has now been received; and when it will be published?
I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given on the 9th July to the hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Mr. Harris), a copy of which I am sending him.
Nursery Schools
asked the President of the Board of Education whether any circular or memorandum has been issued by the Board for the guidance of local education authorities with regard to the planning, equipment, and staffing of nursery schools; whether the Board have applied any limit to the number of qualified professional teachers who may be in charge of or employed in nursery schools; and whether nursery schools are generally supervised and inspected by the medical branch of the Board of Education or by the elementary branch, and by His Majesty's inspectors of schools?
Suggestions for the planning and equipment of nursery schools were contained in the prefatory memorandum to the original nursery school Regulations issued in 1919, but these schools are in an early stage of development and the Board are anxious not to limit unnecessarily the discretion of local education authorities in making experiments. As regards staffing, Article 9 (1) of the Consolidated Special Services Regulations of 1925 provides that the staff must be sufficient and suitable and such as the Board may from time to time require. As indicated in paragraph 4 of Circular 1354, issued with those Regulations (a copy of which I am sending the hon. Member), the Board have laid down no specific numerical standards for the staffing of nursery schools. One of the Board's medical inspectors is specially charged with the inspection of nursery schools under the direction of the chief medical officer, and the schools are also visited from time to time by His Majesty's inspectors of elementary schools.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of giving local authorities the advantages of the knowledge which has been acquired during the last nine years; since the suggestion was made in 1919?
I will consider that, but they are quite well known to local authorities.
Questions
Aliens (Deportations)
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that there are over 50 Russians in this country who have been convicted of crimes and recommended as many as five or six times for deportation by the magistrates; and will he take steps to see that these aliens are deported?
There are a number of aliens of Russian origin who have been recommended (sometimes more than once) for deportation, but whom it is impossible to deport because neither the Soviet nor any other Government recognises them as its citizens. I always take all possible steps to deport in proper cases, but a foreign Government cannot he compelled to admit to its territory a person whom it does not recognise as one of its nationals.
Is it not a fact that these people are of Russian nationality, and could not the right hon. Gentleman send in a bill to the Russian Government for their keep or refuse visas to Russians who are desirous of coming into this country unless the Russian Government will accept those of their nationals who are recommended for deportation?
I am afraid that would be a little difficult. The Russian Government does not admit that these people are Russian citizens. That is the difficulty; and we cannot compel them to admit it. We may think they are, but the Russian Government will not admit that they are, and, therefore, we cannot send them back.
Might not these people be rather more acceptable to the Russian Government if the right hon. Gentleman would send them back with a few Cooks?
Is it not possible to put them on a life-saving raft and place them within the three-mile limit, so that they could find their way ashore, as has been done in the case of other countries?
Hyde Park Prosecutions
asked the Home Secretary the nature of the decision of the Director of Public Prosecutions in the matter of Constables Maclean and Badger, who arrested Sir Leo Money and Miss Savidge in Hyde Park; and whether, in the event of proceedings for alleged perjury not being recommended, he will say what form of inquiry he proposes to institute on disciplinary grounds?
Yes, Sir. The Director of Public Prosecutions has advised, and I agree, that proceedings for perjury would not be justified. In view of this decision no question of a disciplinary inquiry arises. I have informed the Commissioner that, in my opinion, the action of these officers in the case in question should not be regarded as reflecting to their discredit in any way.
Will the right hon. Gentleman take the very earliest opportunity of communicating such decision to the officers in question?
It is the duty of the Commissioner. I have communicated with the Commissioner, and I have no doubt he will take all proper steps.
Inquest, Coleford (Expenses)
asked the Home Secretary the total cost of the expenses of the inquest in connection with the Pace case, and what proportion of this will be paid by the Government; and what was the amount paid to each member of the jury for the period of 13 days during which time the inquest lasted?
£463 8s. 5d., which will be borne by local funds, and a small sum, not yet settled, for assistance to the coroner, which will be borne by Government funds. The amount paid to each juror was £3 5s.
In view of the fact that this inquest was brought about chiefly by the Home Office, are not they prepared to pay a larger proportion of the expenses, and, further, is 13s. considered sufficient pay for 13 long sittings to cover the expenses of the jurymen?
I cannot accept the statement of the hon. and gallant Member. The inquest was not brought about by the Home Office, but by the local coroner acting in accordance with his duties. The information given to him was that a case of suspicion had occurred in his district, and he would have been failing in his duty if he had not held an inquest.
Poor Prisoners (Legal Aid)
asked the Home Secretary if, in view of the fact that the Magistrate refused the application for legal aid made by James Richardson Johnson, aged 22 years, a miner who, on 25th June last, was committed for trial at the assizes on a charge of attempted murder, to which he pleaded not guilty, he will introduce legislation at an early date to ensure that poor prisoners may no longer appear for trial on serious charges of this kind without legal assistance?
I have only seen a newspaper report. The reason for refusing legal aid may have been that the nature of the defence was not disclosed as required by Section 1 (1) of the Poor Prisoners' Defence Act, 1903, or that otherwise the conditions of that enactment were not satisfied. In any event it is still possible for the Judge to certify for legal aid. The question of the necessity for legislation concerning Poor Prisoners' Defence is under consideration.
Will my right hon. Friend inquire into the system in Scotland in regard to prisoners who are paupers? Since the 15th century solicitors and counsel, some of them the most eminent, can be conscripted in defence of a poor prisoner, free of any charge.
I shall certainly do so. I like to get information from North of the Tweed whenever I can.
Road Grants
asked the Minister of Transport whether he will state, for each of the years from 1920-21 to date, the amount of classification grants for Class I and Class II roads paid to London, Metropolitan, and county boroughs; and the grants for the maintenance of scheduled roads in the area of each county council?
As the answer contains a number of figures, I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the answer:
Classification Grants were first made in 1921–22. The amounts of such grants made to the highway authorities in London and the county boroughs were as follows:
£ 1921–1922 1,501,960 1922–1923 1,598,791
£ 1923–1924 1,563,046 1924–1925 1,541,476 1925–1926 1,427,360 1926–1927 1,439,882 1927–1928 1,463,463
Grants for the maintenance of scheduled roads were first made in 1926–27. The amounts of such grants made to highway authorities in the administrative counties of England and Wales were as follows:
£ 1926–1927 1,249,278 1927–1928 1,506,611
The grants made to the authorities in each county in 1926–27 are set out in the Annual Report on the Administration of the Road Fund for that year, and those for the year 1927–28 will appear in the Report shortly to be issued.
Business of the House
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That the Proceedings on Government Business be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House).—[ Commander Eyres Monsell. ]
With reference to this Motion, may I ask for which Bills, apart from the first Order, the Eleven o'Clock Rule is to be suspended; and, further, whether the Vote of the Home Office can be put down on Friday so as to afford the House an opportunity of discussing the Reports on the Savidge case.
In regard to the business today, the Government certainly will not take more than the first three Orders. On Friday next, the Report of the Tribunal of Inquiry, set up to consider the Savidge case, will be taken on the Police Vote.
How long is it in tended to keep us sitting to-night? I understand that we are to take the first three Orders on the Paper, and the second Order is intensely opposed.
Question put.
The House divided: Ayes, 218; Noes, 96.
Division No. 283.] AYES. [3.45 p.m. Aoland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Gower, Sir Robert Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Grant. Sir J. A. Nuttall, Ellis Albery, Irving James Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh Allen, Sir J. Sandeman Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H.(W'th's'w. E) Oman, Sir Charles William C. Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Grotrian, H. Brent Penny, Frederick George Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Atholl, Duchess of Gunston, Captain D. W. Perkins, Colonel E. K. Balniel, Lord Hacking, Douglas H. Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) Philipson, Mabel Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Hammersley, S. S. Pilditch, Sir Philip Bennett. A. J. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Preston, William Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- Harland, A. Price, Major C. W. M. Berry, Sir George Harrison, G. J. C. Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington) Betterton, Henry B. Hartington, Marquess of Rhys. Hon. C. A. U. Birchall, Major J. Dearman Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Blundell, F. N. Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Boothby, R. J. G. Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. Ropner, Major L. Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. Henn, Sir Sydney H. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B. Hills, Major John Waller Salmon, Major I. Brass, Captain W. Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Brassey, Sir Leonard Holt, Capt. H. P. Sandeman, N. Stewart Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Sanders, Sir Robert A. Briscoe, Richard George Hopkins, J. W. W. Sanderson, Sir Frank Brocklebank, C. E. R. Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) Sandon, Lord Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'Y) Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. Savery, S. S Buchan, John Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N). Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Buckingham, Sir H. Hudson. K. S. (Cumberl'and, Whiteh'n) Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down) Burman, J. B. Hurd, Percy A. Skelton, A. N. Burton, Colonel H. W. Hurst, Gerald B. Smith-Carington, Neville W. Butler, Sir Geoffrey Iliffe, Sir Edward M. Smithers, Waldron Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Carver, Major W. H. James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Southby, Commander A. R. J. Cautley, Sir Henry S. Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) Sprot, Sir Alexander Cazalet, Captain Victor A. King, Commodore Henry Douglas Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Stanley, Lord (Fylde) Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.) Knox, Sir Alfred Steel, Major Samuel Strang Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N.(Ladywood) Lamb, J. Q. Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Chapman, Sir S. Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Tasker, R. Inigo. Christie, J. A. Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Templeton, W. P. Churchman, Sir Arthur C. Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell Cobb, Sir Cyril Looker, Herbert William Tinne, J. A. Celfox, Major Wm. Phillips Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere Titchfield, Major the Marquess of Cooper, A. Duff Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough Cope, Major Sir William Lynn, Sir R. J. Wallace, Captain D. E. Couper, J. B. MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull) Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus Warrender, Sir Victor Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) MacIntyre, Ian Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) Davies, Dr. Vernon McLean, Major A. Wayland, Sir William A. Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Macmillan, Captain H. Wells, S R. Dean, Arthur Wellesley Macquisten, F. A. White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple- Dixey, A. C. MacRobert, Alexander M. Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) Drewe, C. Makins, Brigadier-General E. Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) Eden, Captain Anthony Malone, Major P. B. Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) Edmondson, Major A. J. Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) Elliot, Major Walter E. Margesson, Captain D. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Ellis, R. G. Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) Meyer, Sir Frank Wolmer, Viscount Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Milne, J. S. Wardlaw- Womersley, W. J. Everard, W. Lindsay Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde) Fairfax, Captain J. G. Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley Falle, Sir Bertram G. Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Wood, Sir S. Hill.-(High Peak) Fanshawe, Captain G. D. Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Woodcock, Colonel H. C. Fermoy, Lord Moore, Sir Newton J. Wragg, Herbert Ford, Sir P. J. Morden, Col. W Grant Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) Gates, Percy Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive TELLERS FOR THE AYES— Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Nelson, Sir Frank Major Sir George Hennessy and Goff, Sir Park Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Captain Viscount Curzon.
NOES. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Attlee, Clement Richard Barnes, A. Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Barr, J. Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Baker, Walter Batey, Joseph Ammon, Charles George Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Bondfield, Margaret Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Harris, Percy A. Ponsonby, Arthur Briant, Frank Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Potts, John S. Broad, F. A. Hirst, G. H. Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) Brown, Ernest (Leith) Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter Buchanan, G. Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Sakiatvala, Shapurji Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel John, William (Rhondda, West) Salter, Dr. Alfred Charleton, H. C. Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Scurr, John Cluse, W. S. Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Shinwell, E. Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Cove, W. G. Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Dalton, Hugh Jones, W. N. (Carmarthen) Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Kelly, W. T. Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Day, Harry Kennedy, T. Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Dennison, R. Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Strauss, E. A. Dunnico, H. Lansbury, George Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) Lawrence, Susan Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) Fenby, T. D. Lee, F. Thurtle, Ernest Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. Lowth, T. Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. Gosling, Harry Lunn, William Viant, S. P. Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Mackinder, W. Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah Griffith, F. Kingsley Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Wellock, Wilfred Groves T. Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Westwood, J. Grundy, T. W. March, S. Wheatley, Rt. Hon J. Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Montague, Frederick Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Morris, R. H. Windsor, Walter Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Hardie, George D. Naylor T. E. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Harney, E. A. Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Mr. Hayes and Mr. Whiteley.
Poor Prisoners Defence Bill,
"to make further and better provision for the defence of poor persons, and to amend the Law relating to appeals from Courts of Summary Jurisdiction," presented by Mr. Withers; supported by Mr. Rhys Davies, Mr. Morgan Jones, Mrs. Runciman, Mr. Ernest Brown, Lord Henry Cavendish-Bentinck, and Sir Malcolm Macnaghten; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 176.]
Selection (Standing Committees)
Standing Committee C
Mr. William Nicholson reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee C (added in respect of the Public Rights of Way Bill): Major Steel; and had appointed in substitution: Sir Martin Conway.
Report to lie upon the Table.
Consolidation Bills (Joint Committee)
Report in respect of the Food and Drugs (Adulteration) Bill [ Lords ] (pending in the Lords), brought up, and read;
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Message from the Lords
That they have agreed to,—
Dogs Act (Amendment) Bill, without Amendment.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to amend the Law with regard to the destruction of children at or before birth." [Child Destruction Bill [ Lords .]
Orders of the Day
Rating and Valuation (Apportionment) Bill
[5TH ALLOTTED DAY.]
As amended, considered.
The proposed new Clause which stands first on the Paper in the name of the hon. Member for North Kensington (Mr. Gates)—( Ascertainment of gross value and net annual value not to be affected )—is outside the scope of the Bill. With regard to the proposed new Clause which stands second on the Paper in the name of the hon. and learned Member for South Shields (Mr. Harney)—( Aggregation of annual value of hereditaments )—he will see that that point is dealt with in an Amendment which has been put down by the Government to Clause 3 of the Bill and which proposes to insert the following new Sub-section:
"(3) Where two or more properties within the same curtilage, or contiguous to one another, are in the same occupation and, though treated as two or more hereditaments for the purposes of rating and valuation by reason of being situate in different parishes or of having been valued at different times or for any other reason, are used as parts of a single mine, mineral railway, factory, or workshop, then, for the purposes of determining whether the several hereditaments are industrial hereditaments they shall be treated as if they formed parts of a single hereditament comprising all such hereditaments."
NEW CLAUSE.—( Provisions as to hospital hereditaments. )
In this Act the expression "hospital hereditaments" means a hereditament occupied and used as a hospital: Provided that the expression "hospital hereditament" does not include a hospital run for private profit or gain.—[ Mr. Harris. ]
Brought up, and read the First time.
I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
This proposed new Clause is to be taken in conjunction with an Amendment to Clause 1 which appears later on the Paper and which proposes to include hospitals among the hereditaments defined in the Bill. In this proposal I am satisfied that I shall have the complete sympathy of the Minister of Health because during the Committee stage the right hon. Gentleman went out of his way to suggest that the hospitals had considerable claims to assistance. It is not unreasonable to say that the work of our hospitals is an industry that has suffered severely because of the War. They have "felt a draught" almost more than the ordinary trades and industries of the country. The War enormously increased their maintenance charges. The expense of hospital staffs, nursing, food, general supplies and of the whole organisation, has increased since the industrial depression of 1920, and, at the same time, the income of the hospitals has been immensely depleted because of the increased poverty in the country. The struggle to keep the voluntary hospitals in existence has been great, not only in London but all over the country. The hon. Member for Brighton (Sir Cooper Rawson), on more than one occasion, has eloquently described the difficulties in which the local hospitals of his constituency are placed, and we have also the Report of the Voluntary Hospitals Commission showing that the number of new beds required in 1925 was over 12,000, while there was a waiting list for admission to hospitals in England and Wales of over 45,000.
The strain on the voluntary system in the last few years has been such, that we have almost reached breaking point. The London County Council have made various recommendations but every day the position becomes more serious. In London every year, through the organisation of the King Edward Hospital Fund, something like £250,000 is raised in voluntary contributions. The Queen Alexandra Rose Fund, the League of Mercy and all kinds of organisations are harnessed together in an immense effort to raise money, and out of that annual contribution, much of it representing the sacrifice of comparatively poor people, the local authorities in London take a toll of over £60,000. On the one hand, the masses of the people in London are providing this money for the voluntary hospitals, and, on the other hand, it is being handed back to the ratepayers in the form of taxation. It is a very serious tax on the hospitals organisation. If the Minister has only a limited sum at his disposal—and that has been his constant plea in these discussions—I submit that no organisation has a greater claim to State assistance than the hospitals organisation. Rating the hospitals is tantamount to a tax on benevolence, a tax on the sick poor, and, what is equally serious, a tax on the advancement of medical science. In this country it is on the voluntary hospitals, more than on any other organisation, that we depend for the training of our doctors and surgeons and nurses.
4.0 p.m.
If our voluntary system were to break down, it would be a serious set-back to the medical profession and to the whole theory and principle of voluntary maintenance. If the voluntary system broke down and the hospitals were no longer able to fulfil their functions of dealing with the sick, the responsibility would fall on the local rates. As it is, the infirmaries in London which have now been named "hospitals," have, owing to the shortage of beds available in London, and the financial difficulties of the voluntary hospitals, been compelled to deal with many cases which hitherto were left to the voluntary hospitals. If the machine breaks down through inability to make two ends meet, the whole cost of dealing with the sick will fall on the Poor Law, and have to be dealt with by the infirmaries. It would be poor economy; it would really be penny wise, pound foolish to grudge this assistance to the hospitals. I do not like again to drag in the breweries, but it is a very sorry story, that while you give help to the breweries by taking off three-quarters of their rates by the proposed financial scheme, at the same time you refuse to relieve the burden on the hospitals. The product of the brewery very often drives people to the hospitals, and they have to be refused admission because of the poverty and the financial pressure of taxation in the form of rates.
The principle involved has already been accepted because we have, I think I am right in saying, relieved the voluntary hospitals from Income Tax. Does it not seem unreasonable in those circumstances to refuse to give relief from rates? I know it will be said that this is not the occasion to deal with the question; that, after all, this is a machinery Bill. This is a Bill to differentiate between various classes of ratepayers, between the manufacturer and the distributor, between the producer and the retailer, and so on. Surely if you are going to differentiate, is it unreasonable to bring hospitals into the category of industries, and to say that the cure of the sick, the saving of life, is not less important than the manufacture of goods? Therefore, I say to the Minister that he will be well advised to accept this Clause. I do not press the particular form of words. I admit that I am only an amateur draftsman. I drafted the Clause myself. There is another place, and if the right hon. Gentleman will accept the principle, I am sure it will be possible for the Parliamentary draftsmen to draft a Clause to meet the situation. I do not, of course, ask for assistance for the private hospital. I only ask it for voluntary hospitals maintained by the subscriptions of the public and which do good work for the public should be relieved of its rates.
I beg to Second the Motion.
I am doubtful whether it is possible to devise any scheme of legislation which will not leave some hard cases. The case of the hospitals is, however, quite an exception. They are not a luxury. They are essential for our modern times. One has only to consider, for instance, the terror of the streets to realise that. I cannot help feeling that if there is any institution which should be assisted it is the hospital. Hospitals are not out for gain. They serve a cause which has the sympathy of all and they are accessible to all, however poor they may be. One cannot help feeling that there is something defective in our scheme. Like my hon. Friend the Member for South West Bethnal Green (Mr. Harris) I must refer again to the case of the brewers. It does give the cynic some cause for laughter when he knows, as everyone knows, that an enormous number of people are in the hospital as the result of intemperance. Everyone knows that a large number of cases are brought to a fatal issue through intemperance. We can assist those industries which are the cause of intemperance but we cannot assist those institutions which have to relieve the results. It certainly does seem anomalous. I know the Minister is keen on questions affecting the health of the community and he should show this by assisting the object of the new Clause. I think the public will be a little more satisfied or a little less dissatisfied if it knows that at least some portion of the sum has gone to the hospitals. If the right hon. Gentleman cannot see his way to accept the words of this Clause I hope at least he will devise some means to meet the situation. There are a number of patients waiting for admission to hospitals, and the beds are there but cannot be opened for want of funds. It is one of the greatest scandals of England that people requiring urgent assistance in serious cases are on the waiting list, when they ought to be treated immediately. It would do something to remove the stigma if the Minister could see his way to relieve the hospitals of a portion of their rates.
The hon. Member who moved this Clause hoped that, in view, as he said, of my sympathy, I would accept the principle of the Clause. He went on to say that sympathy was an inexpensive commodity. That, I may remark, is an argument which cuts each way. He and his friends are not incurring anything in the nature of expense in recommending a proposal of this kind. They are, perhaps, hoping to get some credit in the constituencies, if one is to accept the dictum of the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George). But neither the hon. Member who Moved nor his hon. Friend the Seconder gave any reason for departing from the principle which I laid down when I discussed this question in Committee, namely, that whatever may be the merits of the proposal to give some relief to the rating of hospitals this is not the Bill in which relief of that kind should be considered. The reason is obvious. This is not a plan for reconsidering the whole system of rating with a, view to seeing what kind of property might with advantage be relieved under our rating system. It is a special proposal that we are making here for the stimulation of industries, and it is a very far-fetched suggestion indeed to try to bring hospitals under the name of industries. After all, I think hon. Members must be aware that, although I do not pretend that the rating principle is on a satisfactory footing at present, when there is so much difference in the way in which hospitals are treated in various parts of the country, it is a matter which is receiving the attention of the Central Valuation Committee, and they have made some proposals and some recommendations in one of their Reports which, if generally adopted, would, I believe, remove any very serious hardships on the question of rating from the minds of those responsible for voluntary hospitals.
Because I have expressed sympathy in this matter, I do not want to be taken as having suggested here that I am in favour of any particular scheme of derating, whether partial or total. It is quite certain that you could not stop at hospitals. There are other kinds of property for which an argument on similar lines could quite reasonably and properly be made, and I do not wish to be taken as having accepted any principle in this matter, because, frankly, I have not given that consideration to it which I should deem necessary before I, at any rate, expressed a definite opinion. But certainly one does recognise that there is quite a good case to be made for including voluntary hospitals, and with that, I think, I must content myself on this occasion. It seems to me that on some future occasion we may have some general scheme to review all the various classes of property which are rated today, and in such a Bill this question would very properly find its place, but it is not appropriate to discuss the question of hospitals in a Bill which is designed to pave the way to relief of industries in the interests of employment.
I thought in the course of the right hon. Gentleman's remarks that he might be inclined to accept in this Bill the principle of this Clause. If he will look into the matter, I think that he will find no difficulty in connecting this very directly with the industries that he wishes to relieve. In Scotland we use the term "infirmary" for non-infectious hospitals. Those are maintained entirely by voluntary contributions which, to a very large extent, come directly from industry. By an arrangement, employers take an annual sum from the wages of the employés, and make an addition to it, and the total sum is banded over for the maintenance of the institutions. Take the Royal Infirmary of Glasgow, which is an institution which would come directly within this Clause. It has been for years, indeed almost since its erection, used in a way that I might almost describe as a human affairs' establishment for all the industries of Lanarkshire. There is not a day passes that we do not have men coming in suffering seriously from accidents in the mines or steelworks.
I am quite sure that if the sympathy of the right hon. Gentleman was as great as that for which he is given credit on this side of the House, he could connect industry with the relief of hospitals which are used to deal with accidents that occur in those industries, and I would appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to consider the matter seriously again. It certainly will not look very well in the country to have flag days for hospitals, while the right hon. Gentleman is relieving the brewers. A very much stronger case could be made out for the institution that deals with accidents in industry than could possibly be made out for the brewery or the distillery, which, as the hon. Member who seconded said, provides victims for these institutions. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will look at the matter again, and give us some practical evidence of that wonderful sympathy for these institutions which he has expressed in his speech.
I regret very much that the Minister has come to the conclusion that he has. That the matter is really of vital urgency is shown, I think, by one case with which I am very well acquainted. This really arises from the system of rating initiated by the Minister under his 1925 Act and to be introduced in his future Act. The County Hospital of Sussex at Brighton has received a demand for rates for this half-year of £1,660 odd. Its rating each half-year before has been £162. I think I am right in saying that this is a half-year's rate. The assessment, therefore, has been put up ten times compared with what it was before, and I hope the Minister, if he cannot do something in this Bill, will at any rate exert some influence at once to put the rating of provincial hospitals—although it applies, I think, to London hospitals too—on some consistent basis throughout the country.
It is a new feature, when hon. Members introduce Amendments which are apparently more humane than usual, to be taunted with doing it for political purposes. The Minister states that he has not given the necessary attention to this question to make up his mind, but I do not feel that that is in itself sufficient justification for turning this Clause down. If in this scheme we can relieve large industries that are not by any means dying or greatly depressed, surely we ought to be able to relieve some of the hospitals, such as the great London Hospital, which is exhibiting notices that it must close beds because of the lack of funds, and the West Ham Hospital, or Queen Mary's Hospital, where I come from, which is in a similar position, or anyhow is badly in need of money and is compelled to beg in order that it can carry on this great national and humane work. We ought to make up our minds that the great medical and surgical institutions of this country are industries, because, as the right hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. Wheatley) said, they are really shops wherein the bodies and sometimes the minds of the working people are put under repair.
From that point of view, I think they can be placed within the category of industries, mainly because the hospitals of the country house the poorer population. They are a necessary adjunct to the industrial life of the community, and one sweet thing about hospitals is that they do not ask your politics when you are in them; and when they take you in and try to bring you back to bodily health, if not comfort, I think they are performing, not only a great function, but something which is as essential to the well-being of the country as is any ordinary industry. Without life and good health, we cannot work, and apparently, without the hospitals, we cannot maintain the general standard of physical and bodily comfort that is our boast in this country. Therefore, I beg the Minister to have another look at the Clause, otherwise I would submit to the Mover that he should take it to a Division, because it is important, and I feel that he will get general support for it, even from Members on the opposite side of the House.
The right hon. Gentleman was not very happy in his reply, because there can be no question that this Clause is not outside the scope of the Bill. It may be outside the scope of the purpose of the Bill as declared by the Government, but this is a Bill which has nothing whatever to do primarily with industry at all, but it is a Bill to provide for the relief of rates on certain kinds of rateable property, known in Scotland as heritages and in England as hereditaments. There can be no doubt whatever that great hospitals and infirmaries are vitally linked up with industry. What is true of Glasgow in this connection, is true also of Edinburgh and Leith and of every great city and town in the country; and I have no doubt that if the whole House were present to hear the arguments in favour of classing hospitals as properties which ought to be relieved equally with the other properties under the Bill, the whole House would, without exception, quite apart from party feeling, vote in favour of the principle contained in this Clause.
Before the right hon. Gentleman made up his mind to turn down this Clause, had he made any calculations as to what the Clause would cost if put into the Bill? He is aware—none better—that one of the most unfortunate effects of the Rating and Valuation Act of 1925 has been in many parts of the country an enormous increase in the rates on hospitals. What is the total amount paid by hospitals in rates in England and Wales? I regret that neither the Secretary of State for Scotland nor the Under-Secretary is present, so that I could have asked him the same question with regard to Scotland; but what is the total now contributed by hospitals in rates, and what was the total contributed previous to the Act of 1925? I am sure the Minister of Health would like to meet us if he could in this matter; and surely on the Report stage, when the general argument about dissipation cannot be stressed at length, as it has been stressed when similar Amendments have been previously argued, this one exception to the general framework of the Bill as drafted by the right hon. Gentleman might be made. We are not concerned with party politics on this question, but with trying to get relief for the hospitals, and we see no reason inside the Title and scope of the Bill why these hospitals, like the other three classes of heritages or hereditaments that are now to be set apart in the valuation rolls of the country for prospective relief, should not equally get that relief.
I agree with previous speakers in regretting the reply of the right hon. Gentleman. I do so all the more because, while it is difficult for the right hon. Gentleman to couple the hospitals with necessitous areas or a rating scheme of this description, it seems to me to be quite an easy proposition to pool the two together, and it must be clear to the right hon. Gentleman that hospitals in necessitous areas are more in need of assistance than those in other parts of the country. In various places, due to short time and general industrial depression, it is a physical and financial impossibility for the local hospitals to continue to carry on with their work. The right hon. Gentleman will remember the Commission presided over by the late Lord Cave, which told us that we were thousands of beds short. A more recent Commission, the Onslow Commission, repeated the statement of Lord Cave's Commission, but they went further and said that if we were to preserve the voluntary hospital system, which performs wonderful work all over the country, it would be necessary for the nation to come to the aid of voluntary institutions and provide at least 50 per cent. of their capital expenditure in future. The Government have always, since that Report was issued, pleaded that they were not in a financial position to do anything for our hospitals.
All over the country, where our hospital system was developing normally before the War, there has been a tremendous shortage of beds since the War, and even now, as the hon. Member for Stratford (Mr. Groves) said, wards are having to be closed down because sufficient contributions are not forthcoming. I happen to know that in my own area the majority of the collieries for several months have been working only some three days a week, and for the purpose of keeping the hospital in existence at all these colliers are having 3d. a week deducted from their wages. There are no large sums given by wealthy people. This hospital is wholly dependent on contributions derived from the small wages of the workpeople, and we have two wards with 40 beds which we are unable to use because the income is inadequate to meet the ordinary main- tenance costs. It seems to me that the right hon. Gentleman would be quite justified in separating this particular item from all the rest and rendering what assistance he can in a very small way under the terms of this Bill. I can tell the right hon. Gentleman that, because of the serious depression and the unfortunate financial position in many mining areas, the miners' welfare fund, which was originally produced for the purpose of improving the amenities in mining districts, has had to be devoted to the purpose of either extending or maintaining hospitals that have already been built; and mining communities are being deprived of social amenities that otherwise ought to be theirs, merely because there are no large gifts being made to these hospitals.
It seems to me that the right hon. Gentleman might very well consider the Report of Lord Cave's Commission and the more recent Report of Lord Onslow's Commission, and at least do what can be done under the terms of this Bill. Might I remind him that the voluntary hospitals in this country have done good work and are doing good work to-day, but voluntaryism, as we know it, is slowly fading away unless and until this or some future Government in some way renders some financial assistance to that kind of hospital. In Australia, we understand that for every pound provided by the local population the Government provide another pound. We do not ask the right hon. Gentleman to do that, but we think that in these sorely depressed areas, where unemployment is general and where accommodation is not available for injured people and others who require institutional treatment, he ought at least to give an earnest of his good will towards them by accepting this Clause.
I should be very pleased if I could have accepted the arguments of the Opposition in favour of this Clause, but I cannot persuade myself that this Bill is a Bill for the relief of voluntary hospitals. The argument has been used that we might regard the hospitals as productive institutions in that they help to produce medical men and nurses, but if that were carried further, where should we stop? We might have to relieve the rates on theological colleges because they are produc- ing parsons, or even on Socialist and political colleges because they are producing politicians. The question of the relief of hospitals is an entirely different question, and I do not see for a moment how it could come under this Bill, much as I should like it to do so. I believe the hospital question in this country is undoubtedly serious, but I also believe that the Minister of Health has that fact well before him and is as anxious as anybody else to deal with it.
I would like to make one slight comment on the attempt which has been made to drag in the relief of rates on breweries and to argue that the breweries are a prolific cause of work for hospitals. That may have been so in the past. In the old days it was not an uncommon thing to have patients in hospitals as a result of alcoholic excess, but I think it is known to the majority of Members and to the people of the country that there has been a very great reduction in cases of disease due to alcoholic excess. In my student days it was quite a common occurrence to come across cases of what were then called drinker's heart. At the present time, they are the greatest rarity in clinical medicine. It is only fair to the people of this country that such a statement should not be allowed to pass uncontradicted. The people are more temperate than they were; there is not so much drunkenness and disease as the result of alcoholic excess, and it is undignified and unfair to try and hang a political argument on the fact that you are relieving breweries of a certain amount of rates, and not relieving hospitals.
I wish to say a few words dealing with some of the statements which have been made by hon. Members and to answer, if I can, one or two questions which have been put. The hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) said that the voluntary hospital system was fading away. It will be a great mistake if that statement is allowed to go forth. As a matter of fact, the voluntary system was never more firmly based than it is at the present moment, and among the people who support it are a large number of the wage earners of the country. It is the wage earners who, to a large extent, are supporting the voluntary movement.
They are compelled to. If the right hon. Gentleman wants to imply that he is the only person in the House who knows anything about the voluntary system, he is wrong. I happen to have been a member of a management board of a hospital for 12 years, and I know that only the men who make a weekly contribution are entitled to benefit from that hospital, and, if they do not pay their weekly contributions, they do not get the treatment.
I am dealing with the hon. Gentleman's statement that the voluntary system was fading away, and I assert that that is a mis-statement. When one looks at the Report of the recent Commission, one finds that the voluntary system is firmly based, and a great measure of this support comes from the workers. I observe nothing in the hon. Gentleman's assertion which corrects that statement. I make this further statement, that everyone in all parts of the House would be glad if they could assist the voluntary hospital system. That anxiety to help the hospitals does not belong to any particular party. The only question that arises is whether this is the appropriate place to seize an opportunity, which many of us desire to take in one form or the other. This is a scheme, as everybody is fully aware by this time, for helping, if we can, productive industry, and to lessen, if we can, the burdens in necessitous areas. It must be taken in conjunction with the whole of the Government's plan. The Government have their scheme, the Liberal party have their scheme, and the Labour party have their scheme, and in none of these schemes has any suggestion been made that there should be incorporated any particular assistance for voluntary hospitals, or any other kind of charity. In all these schemes, the suggestion that we could assist voluntary hospitals is obviously quite inappropriate, and if any other Government were standing at this Box, they would give the same reply that my right hon. Friend has given on this occasion.
One has only to look at the principles of this Bill to see that this Amendment is literally dragged in for a purpose which was stated by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), when a similar Amendment in connection with recreation grounds was before the House. This is a successor of the recreation ground Amendment. The Liberal party, on that occasion, suggested that recreation grounds should be relieved. Now they come forward and ask that hospitals should be relieved. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs, in a final observation, really gave one of the reasons why this Amendment is proposed. He said:
I want the House to be assured that, so far as voluntary hospitals are concerned, the Central Valuation Committee have made some very valuable suggestions. I should not like to leave my observations without saying that something is being done of a very necessary character. The Central Valuation Committee have offered advice to the rating authorities which, I think, will do a great deal to mitigate a certain amount of hardship arising from the diversity of practice which exists at the present time. The Committee advised that in the case of the hospitals, the rating authorities, or their valuers or officers, should obtain the following information to place before the particular committees which deal with the matter: First, the rateable value according to the current valuation list; second, the number of beds, distinguishing paying from free beds; third, the description and extent of buildings used otherwise than for the accommodation of the inmates; fourth, the extent of land occupied with the hospital; fifth, any restriction of user of the property; and sixth, any other particulars relevant to the settlement of the basis of assessment. This is their final conclusion, which will meet a good many of the difficulties which have been raised: valuation does not come into force in the great majority of cases until 1929, and so it is impossible to give him the figures which I was anxious to obtain for him. So far as this Amendment is concerned, everyone who desires to help hospitals recognises that to attempt to interpose it in the Bill is neither appropriate nor desirable, and I think that very largely the difficulties will be met by the advice of the Central Valuation Committee. Under those circumstances, I must ask the House to reject the Amendment.
The Parliamentary Secretary and the Minister accused us of putting forward this Amendment for political propaganda. It seems to have been very effective, because it brought both Ministers to their feet, and compelled them to put forward for the public Press their justification, which in effect was: "We are exceedingly sorry that we cannot do it now, but believe us, electors, as soon as we get an appropriate occasion, we will do it." I am not at all ashamed of using this Amendment for the purpose of illustrating and emphasising one of the worst effects of the Bill. We have always contended that money is to be taken from the taxpayer, and hundreds of thousands of pounds given to the brewers. It is well that the electors should know, by contrasting that with what is done with an Amendment like this, that this Measure is one which will give taxpayers' money to relieve that which the brewers put into bottles, but will not relieve that which the doctor puts into bottles. I take it that nobody in the House questions the advisability of relieving hospitals as much as possible, especially voluntary hospitals. It is an absurd thing to say that some of the philanthropists and big-hearted persons who invite contributions for these hospitals are turning themselves into rate and tax gatherers.
The point that is really made is that this Clause cannot be fitted into the logical structure of the Measure. I think that it can. This is, as was pointed out by the hon. Member for Leith (Mr. E. Brown), only machinery. It only provides the method for de-rating certain classes of the community. We happen to know from the White Paper what are the particular classes which the Government have in mind. They say that the whole of this legislation is to relieve productive industry, and one of the ways they are going to relieve productive industry is to remove rates from the shops where the dead instruments are repaired. Why is it not productive industry to repair the living instruments? If you say that it helps the export trade of the country to encourage it to make machinery, and to transport it to an appropriate place, why does it not also help the export trade of the country to encourage making efficient those whose muscle and brawn has to work upon the
dead machine? The Minister might well consider whether we have not given him a plausible case for introducing this relief. Let there be no misunderstanding. I am going to make use on every available opportunity of the fact that, while the Government will allow, through their Bill, hundreds of thousands to go into the brewers' pockets, they refuse to give any relief to the hospitals.
Question put, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
The House divided: Ayes, 110; Noes, 219.
Division No. 284.] AYES. [4.48 p.m. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Ponsonby, Arthur Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Potts, John S Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Ammon, Charles George Hardie, George D. Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Harney, E. A. Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland) Baker, Walter Harris, Percy A Runciman, Hilda (Cornwall, St. Ives) Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Hayes, John Henry Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter Barnes, A. Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Salter, Dr. Alfred Barr, J. Hirst, G. H. Scrymgeour, E Batey, Joseph Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Scurr, John Bondfield, Margaret Hore-Belisha, Leslie Shinwell, E. Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Briant, Frank John, William (Rhondda, West) Slesser, Sir Henry H. Broad, F. A. Johnston. Thomas (Dundee) Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotberhithe) Brown, Ernest (Leith) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) Buchanan, G. Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Snell, Harry Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Charleton, H. C. Jones. T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Strauss, E. A. Cluse, W. S. Jones, W. N. (Carmarthen) Sutton, J. E. Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Kelly, W. T. Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Compton, Joseph Kennedy, T. Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) Cove, W. G. Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Thurtle, Ernest Dalton, Hugh Lansbury, George Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Lawrence, Susan Viant, S. P. Day, Harry Lawson, John James Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney Dennison, R. Lee, F. Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah Dunnico, H. Lowth, T. Wellock, Wilfred Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) Lunn, William Westwood, J. Gardner, J. P. Mackinder, W. Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. MacLaren, Andrew Whiteley, W Gillett, George M. Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Gosling, Harry March, S. Windsor, Walter Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Coine) Montague, Frederick Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Morris, R. H. Griffith, F. Kingsley Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham. N.) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Naylor, T. E. Sir Robert Hutchison and Mr. Groves, T. Oliver, George Harold Fenby. Grundy, T. W. Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.
NOES. Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A (Birm., W.) Albery, Irving James Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Allen, Sir J. Sandeman Brass, Captain W. Chapman, Sir S. Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Brassey, Sir Leonard Christie, J. A. Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Churchman, Sir Arthur C. Atholl, Duchess of Brocklebank, C. E. R. Clarry, Reginald George Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Cobb, Sir Cyril Balniel, Lord Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C.(Berks, Newb'y) Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Buckingham, Sir H. Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Barnett, Major Sir Richard Burman, J. B. Couper, J. B. Bens, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Burton, Colonel H. W. Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Bennett, A. J. Butler, Sir Geoffrey Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Curzon, Captain Viscount Berry, Sir George Campbell, E. T Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Bethel, A. Carver, Major W. H. Davies, Dr. Vernon Betterton, Henry B. Cautley, Sir Henry S. Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Blundell, F. N. Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Dawson, Sir Philip Boothby, R. J. G. Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Dean, Arthur Wellesley Dixey, A. C. Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Drewe, C. Knox, Sir Alfred Salmon, Major I. Eden, Captain Anthony Lamb, J. Q. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Sandeman, N. Stewart Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Sanders, Sir Robert A. Everard, W. Lindsay Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey Sanderson, Sir Frank Fairfax, Captain J. G. Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th) Sandon, Lord Falle, Sir Bertram G. Long, Major Eric Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Fanshawe, Captain G. D. Looker, Herbert William Savery, S. S. Fermoy, Lord Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Ford, Sir P. J. Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down) Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Lynn, Sir Robert J. Skelton, A. N. Foster, Sir Harry S. MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Smithers, Waldron Fraser, Captain Ian Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) Southby, Commander A. R. J. Gates, Percy MacIntyre, Ian Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John McLean, Major A. Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. Gower, Sir Robert MacRobert, Alexander M. Stanley, Lord (Fylde) Grace, John Malone, Major P. B. Steel, Major Samuel Strang Grant, Sir J. A. Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Margesson, Captain D. Tasker, R. Inigo. Greene, W. P. Crawford Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Templeton, W. P. Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (W'th's'w, E) Meyer, Sir Frank Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- Grotrian, H. Brent Milne, J. S. Wardlaw- Tinne, J. A. Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) Titchfield, Major the Marquess of Gunston, Captain D. W. Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough Hacking, Douglas H. Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Waddington, R. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Moore, Sir Newton J. Wallace, Captain D. E Harland, A. Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J T. C. Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) Harrison, G. J. C. Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. Hartington, Marquess of Nelson, Sir Frank Warrender, Sir Victor Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) Neville, Sir Reginald J. Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Watts, Sir Thomas Haslam, Henry C. Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert Wells, S. R. Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. Nuttall, Ellis White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple- Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) Henn, Sir Sydney H. Oman, Sir Charles William C. Williams, Com. C. (Devon. Torquay) Hills, Major John Wallter Penny, Frederick George Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Wilson, Sir Murrough (Yorks, Richm'd) Holt, Captain H. P. Perkins, Colonel E. K Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Hopkins, J. W. W. Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Univesities) Philipson, Mabel Wolmer, Viscount Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Pilcher, G. Womersley, W. J. Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. Pilditch, Sir Philip Wood, E.(Chest'r, Statyb'dge & Hyde) Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.) Preston, William Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) Price, Major C. W. M. Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak) Hurd, Percy A. Remer, J. R. Woodcock, Colonel H. C. Hurst, Gerald B. Rentoul, G. S. Wragg, Herbert Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y. Ch'ts'y) Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich) James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) Ropner, Major L. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— King, Commodore Henry Douglas Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. Major Sir George Hennessy and Major Sir William Cope.
The next new Clause on the paper—( Power of Tribunal to revise new leases )—standing in the name of the hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Harney) is outside the scope of the Bill. The last of the new Clauses—( Value of hereditament as a whole not to be altered )—standing in the name of the hon. Member for North Kensington (Mr. Gates), would be more suitable as an Amendment to the Schedule.
CLAUSE 1.—(Distinction of hereditaments and apportionment of values in valuation lists.)
I beg to move, in page 1, line 12, to leave out paragraph ( a ).
I hope the Minister will not accuse me of pandering to political prejudice or seeking to obtain party advantage in moving this Amendment. The Amendment proposes to remove from the Bill all reference to agricultural hereditaments—to remove the possibility of this rating relief being given to the agricultural industry. Agricultural hereditaments are defined in Clause 2, but I shall not trouble to read the definition there. In our view that definition of agricultural hereditaments ought also to be left out of the Bill. We have just listened to a very interesting Debate on the suggestion that hospitals should be de-rated, and the Minister of Health and his associates on the Treasury bench must in their hearts regret that they were not able to give the concession sought. It is rather strange to find the Minister of Health refusing to give relief and assistance to an institution which is peculiarly under the charge of his department, while at the same time supporting the complete de-rating of agricultural land. Hospitals cater for the health and efficiency of the people, and, in the same way, the intention behind the Government's relief scheme is to give greater working efficiency and greater productive capacity to the agricultural and other industries.
We oppose the inclusion of agricultural hereditaments because we believe this to be the wrong way of helping a very deserving industry. This is tinkering with a very large question, and the danger is that if agriculturists are led to believe that here is the remedy for all their troubles, attention will be diverted from the real remedy which must be produced at some time or other, and it will recede into the background. As we understand things, the Government propose to exempt land entirely from rates: all rates are to be removed from the land and from farm buildings, but the farmer's dwelling-house is still to carry its previous share of the local rates. No real case can be made out for de-rating farm land and farm buildings.
Perhaps I may be allowed to go back a little in the history of this de-rating of agriculture. It is well to remind the Minister and all others who believe this is going to prove a relief for and encouragement to agriculture that 30 years ago we gave relief to agriculture on these lines, starting with a relief of one-fourth of the rates. Later on the Government came forward with proposals to relieve agriculture to the extent of 50 per cent. of the total rate based on their assessable value. We know full well that this pittance of one-fourth of the rates is not going to alter very materially the condition of agriculture. The agricultural industry supports 1,000,000 families; they cultivate over 10,000,000 acres and occupy about 30,000,000 acres. Hon. Members can work out what this pittance of £4,000.000 per annum means divided among 1,000,000 families. When that sum of money is spread over all the owners of agricultural land in the country and the persons engaged in the agricultural industry, it will be seen what a miserable pittance it will be in the way of assistance.
It is because these proposals will not touch the real troubles of agriculture that we are opposed to this Bill. We believe that the Government are shutting their eyes to the real evils from which agriculture suffers. Agriculture is suffering all over the world. It is suffering not only in this country, but in America and in European countries, and it has reached a crisis which cannot be dealt with except by a much more drastic reorganisation than is contained in this Bill. I think what is being put forward in this Measure will do harm to agriculture, because the Government are giving everybody the same measure of relief. There is to be no selection of bad patches for special treatment and everyone is going to receive the same measure of relief. Consequently, assistance will be given to the prosperous farmer engaged in beet growing who has already been subsidised. Those agricultural workers in the backwoods, whose chief difficulty is that of transport and getting their produce to the market, will receive no additional relief.
The Government are constantly telling us that they sympathise with the agricultural workers and the farmers of this country. A few short years ago the farmers were told that if they supported the Tory Government at the election, they would be given £1 for every acre of land which they cultivated. That meant £11,000,000, but the farmers recognised that that was not going to benefit them to any extent, and they turned it down. Now the farmers are being told that, instead of the £1 for every acre which has been turned down, the Government are going to give £4,000,000 per annum, and this in my view is based on principles much less suitable than the principle of the direct subsidy which was promised to the farmers in 1923. The farmer does suffer from heavy rates, and he is suffering to-day because the roads and the transport facilities within his reach have not been kept up to the standard which was necessary, and because the amount which should have been spent on repairs to the roads has been cut down. Besides this the Government have taken large sums of money from the Road Fund.
The present Government, which has made such a hotch-potch of finance, is now bringing forward these proposals from political motives. They know that there is to be a General Election next year, and they believe the farmer is going to jump at this bait of £4,000,000 which will average about 2s. per week, or perhaps from 1s. 6d. to 1s. 9d. per man per week, and vote Tory. The farmer is to be given this small pittance, and for this he is expected to vote for the Government at the next election, and he is to be told that then everything will be well with agriculture in the future. We regard these proposals as something bordering on corruption which are intended to induce the farmers to vote Tory, and at the same time the intention is to draw the blinkers over the eyes of the farmer and those engaged in agriculture to persuade them that this Measure will give relief to agriculture, although we are all well aware that the real remedy required is a reorganisation of agriculture on more drastic lines.
If farmers were given better security of tenure that would be infinitely more valuable than the pittance which is offered by this Bill. The relief which is offered under these proposals will pass almost entirely to the landlords. The farmer requires, not only better security of tenure, but better facilities for placing his produce on the market, and a much more generous form of financial assistance than the Measure which we discussed last Friday. By such proposals as I have suggested, I believe farming can be made a vitally important industry, and this can only be achieved by turning down such sham proposals as those which arc contained in this Measure.
I beg to second the Amendment.
On this side of the House we are often told that our relationship with agriculture is a very small one. My personal contact with agriculture has been considerable, and I have gained considerable experience of agriculture, not only in the capacity of negotiating on behalf of agricultural labourers, but also in the capacity of serving on agricultural committees and wages boards. Consequently, I think this Measure should receive some comment from me on this occasion. This new proposal is the final remnant of taxation that remains on agricultural here- ditaments, if we are to judge by the lack of success that has attended the application of the other 75 per cent. of relief, then we cannot expect that there will be any success in the direction of solving the agricultural problem.
To-day, we are still facing the problem that arable land is going out of cultivation in spite of all our de-rating efforts. If we leave out of consideration the original Act of 1896 and take the period from 1923, we find that the figures show that since that period a considerable number of acres, in fact, thousands of acres, of land have gone out of cultivation, and what is more depressing is that the number of workers engaged upon the land is decreasing year by year. I had the figures from 1924 to the end of 1926, and they show a reduction of workers employed on the land of over 11,500,000—the actual figures are 11,564,060. Those are the figures given by the Minister of Agriculture. We have to consider the previous attempts which were made at de-rating. When we consider the enormity of the problem, and remember that what is proposed means a still further reduction of agricultural workers upon the land, we cannot expect that there will be much relief, much as we desire to see the establishment of agriculture upon a better and firmer basis. We cannot expect the problem to be overcome by the remnant of 25 per cent. relief which is now proposed.
I understand that the amount is approximately £4,750,000, and that is the amount that will be received as a result of this latest addition to the relief of agricultural hereditaments. I should like to be assured that that £4,750,000 is not going to filter through into the pockets of the landlords. If we could be assured on this point then we might be willing to welcome these proposals as a slight instalment of the proposals which the Labour party will apply later on when we come to establish agriculture on a proper basis. The present danger lies in the changes of tenancy which may take place within the next year or two, under which there might be a gradual filtration of the £4,750,000 to the value which the landlord claims when he is letting out his land for farming.
I have already indicated that I sat as a member of the Wages Board some time ago, and I represented a large agricultural county area. Since the re-establishment of the Wages Boards, I find that after 13 years agricultural labourers are still being paid a mimimum wage of 30s. per week, and only in three county areas have the wages reached 36s. per week. We want to do something which will not only benefit agriculture but the agricultural workers. The men who have the skill to till the soil and make it productive, are entitled to some of the advantages of any proposals which are made with the intention of helping agriculture. We want to encourage the tenant farmer to produce more of those things which are consumed in this country, so that he is able to go to his markets upon the best basis and is able to sell his commodities. We have also to consider the necessity that the worker employed by the tenant farmer should have similar conditions as the result of any alterations that are going to be made in the direction of de-rating the farming interest.
I would press upon the Minister that at least he should give consideration to the fact that agriculture cannot be said to be in a worse position than many other distressed industries, and that, therefore, there should be no distinction between agriculture and the industries to which other parts of the Government's proposal will apply. De-rating to the extent of 75 per cent. is already in operation in regard to agriculture, and, therefore, agriculture already has the advantage which it is proposed to give to other industries, so that there should be no further distinction as between agriculture and other industries. In view of the fact that this additional relief is not likely to solve the problems of agriculture, and that no guarantee will be given to the tenant under any part of this Bill that it will be to his advantage, we move the deletion of this paragraph, so that the proposals as to de-rating may not apply to agricultural hereditaments.
I have no difficulty in conceding the claim of the hon. Member for Gower (Mr. D. Grenfell) that his action and that of his party in supporting this Amendment cannot be laid at their door as an attempt to win the suffrages of the agricultural section of the community. The fact is that the use that may be made of what has been said by the hon. Member and his colleagues, when the hon. and learned Member for South Shields (Mr. Harney) comes to put into practice in the constituencies the principles which he announced to us a little while ago, need not seriously alarm anyone. Indeed, while the hon. Member, in moving this Amendment, did, indeed, base his argument upon the ground that the Amendment was not going to be of any benefit to agriculture, the hon. Member who seconded put his argument on a different conception altogether. His argument was that, as agriculture was really no worse off than other industries, it was, therefore, inequitable that it should have relief to the extent of 100 per cent., whereas other industries will only receive 75 per cent. of relief. If I may address a serious argument to this last contention, I would say that agriculture is in a different position from other industries, and, moreover, that the argument of the hon. Member is founded, apparently, upon the belief, which even all these Debates have not been able to eradicate from his mind, that the object of this Bill is, or should be, to pick out the distressed industries and give them a dole which would enable them at least to carry on until times change.
The right hon. Gentleman will recognise that my argument was in relation to the fact that the 75 per cent. of relief already received had not rehabilitated agriculture.
That is another argument altogether, and I will come to that in time. The particular argument that the hon. Member was using, and I am sure he will remember that I am not misquoting him, was that agriculture was no worse off than other depressed industries that he could name, and that, therefore, it was inequitable that agriculture should receive more relief than the 75 per cent. that is to be given to other industries. I say that that is not at all the basis on which our scheme is founded. We are not picking out particular industries because they are depressed, but are trying to stimulate all industries, whether depressed or not. We say that it is just as valuable for our purpose that the prosperous industries should become more prosperous as that the unprosperous industries should be able once more to become prosperous. I come back, however, to the argument of the hon. Member for Gower. He said that he honestly believed that the Government had put forward this scheme as a bribe to the agricultural interest. In the first place, a bribe which he himself described as being only worth 2s. a year—
A week.
well, 2s. a week—can hardly be described as a very substantial bribe; and, in the second place, if the object of the Government were really to hold out a bribe to the farmers, common sense would seem to dictate that they should not give their bribe until after the general election, because, when the bribe has already been given—[ Interruption ]. On the contrary, the whole of the legislation will have been placed on the Statute Book before the General Election comes, and, if the old saying about gratitude being a lively expectation of favours to come is to be accepted, then, as I have said, common sense and common prudence would dictate that those who desire to bribe any particular section of the community should take care that their bribe does not come into operation until the expected favour has been received. If hon. Members opposite talk about bribes, what about their own party; what about the description that the hon. Member gave us of what his own party were going to offer to the farmers—how they were going to be guaranteed security of tenure, whatever—[ Interruption. ] The hon. Member spoke of guaranteeing security of tenure; he did not say anything about good farming being brought into consideration. [ Interruption. ] I am only trying to refute what the hon. Member said. He did not mention anything about good farming. I understand from the interruption that the farmer is at least to give some indication that his farming will he satisfactory. [ Interruption. ] I only wanted to know, because, if we are going to discuss what the nature of the bribe to the farmer is, we may just as well know what operates on the other side before we consider the relative values of these various bribes.
If we are to discuss all possible alternative methods of doing something for agriculture, I cannot help thinking that this Amendment will take up an undue proportion of the time allotted.
I do not want to go into the various alternatives, but to deal with the accusation made against the Government by the hon. Member that these proposals were put forward solely as a bribe. My argument was, in the first place, that, obviously, the proposals made according to the hon. Member's own description, could not be considered as a bribe, and, secondly, that he himself was advocating a course which, if the farmer could believe it, would be a more substantial bribe than anything that we have brought forward.
What is the more solid argument of the hon. Members against the proposal in the paragraph which the Amendment seeks to delete? The hon. Member for Cannock (Mr. W. M. Adamson) says that, if this sum of £4,750,000 is handed out in the shape of a reduction in the rates which the farmer has to pay, whenever tenancies change again that relief will pass from the pockets of the farmers into the pockets of the landowners. That, I know, is a fixed article of faith with the party opposite, and it is very curious that they never seem to be troubled in the least by the fact that, while relief from rates has been in operation in this country for over 30 years, the results which they prophesied have not come about. The hon. Member shakes his head, but be cannot get over the actual facts. As a matter of fact, rents have not been increased by reason of relief from agricultural rating in the past, and, although hon. Members may say, as I believe they do say, "Ah, yes, that is because particular circumstances have come into play which have delayed the inevitable end, but perhaps, in another 30, or even 50 years' time, this extra quarter which you are giving now will pass into the pockets of the landlords instead of into the pockets of the farmers"—although they may say that, I think the answer of the farmers to them would be, "We are quite content to take the risk of what may happen 30, 40 or 50 years hence; what we want is something which will relieve us at the moment, because it is at the moment that we are in sore distress, and we should gladly welcome anything which would help us to tide over the times through which we are passing." I think that they will be quite satisfied that the economic conditions which govern the amount of rent paid for agricultural land to-day are not likely to be such as will enable the further relief to the extent of the last quarter of the rates which the farmer now has to pay to be passed on in the rent when the tenancy comes to an end. Indeed, the general position of agriculture in this country will have to be very different from what it is to-day before any general rise in rents can possibly take place.
It is no use saying that the relief is going equally to the big farmer and to the farmer who is in struggling circumstances. I do not think that those who are farming big farms are by any means as prosperous, or were by any means as prosperous last year, as they were the year before, but in any case it seems to me to be poor consolation to the man who has not a big farm to be told that even the small amount of relief which the Government are offering to him is to be taken away because, forsooth, there is a fear that some of it may go to the big farmer. This Amendment really goes to the root of one of the principal features of the Bill, and, while the arguments which we have heard to-day are only the old arguments, the answers to them must be the old answers. We believe that, small as the relief is—and we have never claimed, and no one on this side of the House has ever clamed, that it was going to be a remedy or a complete solution for the agricultural problem—small as it is, it is welcomed by the farmers; it is desired by them in the light of their experience of the relief which they have had under previous Acts; and we believe that in putting it forward we shall at least be doing something to make it more possible for the agriculturist to carry on until prices again rise and conditions become more favourable to his operations.
I want to put a question to the Minister of Health. He says that the advantages which have been given in various areas since 1896 have not gone in the direction of increased rents. Let us suppose that he is a landowner, or, at least, that he is going to be a landowner or a tenant. Would he not take into account, before he undertook to farm a piece of land, what rates were paid upon that land; and, further, would he admit, if he were a landlord, that he would receive more rent for a farm if the rates were low than he would receive if the rates were high? I hear the answer "No" coming from all over the House, but it is very strange to me that some years ago the then Minister of Agriculture, now Lord Ernle, quoted from a statement made by a well-known authority on agriculture that it was a common practice for landowners to keep down overhead charges or charges on the land, and to keep down rates, because they were conscious of the fact that, the higher the rates were, the greater was their difficulty in securing rents, and that rates as they increased did so at the expense of rent. I have heard Captain Pretyman, who was no mean authority on this subject, say rates were paid by the landowner and not by the tenant. [ Interruption. ] If hon. Members opposite deny a statement made by an experienced authority like Captain Pretyman they are welcome to do so, but I assert, and I can prove, that, under favourable circumstances, as is clear to any student of economics, any advantage given to the man will go to the owner of the land.
Can the hon. Member give an instance where rates have been reduced and rent has been increased?
It is difficult to do that, because there are some areas where rents might not be procurable at all had the relief not been given under the 1896 Act. The main point that seems to be contested is that any relief given in respect of land finally merges into the rent. A student of economics would not require to be told that.
The definition of agricultural land in the Bill leaves out of account a very important element in land that is termed agricultural. In and around our cities there are acres of what is termed agricultural land receiving the benefits of the Agricultural Rates Acts of 1896 and 1923. There is land in the centre of Glasgow, which can boast of the finest slums in Europe, entered in the Rate Book as agricultural land, so that any Member of the House who cares to do so can go to Glasgow and start a small holding. This land in and around cities is ripe for building. I am not blaming the Minister for the drafting of the Bill. I give him this credit, that if he had drafted it it might have been more perfectly done. The land I am speaking of will receive this relief Heretofore it has paid one-quarter and, after the Bill has passed, it will pay nothing at all, despite the fact that this House is carrying on the development of roads and local authorities are becoming more enterprising in the development of local services, and all this combined is advancing the value of the land. A few minutes ago, we had a discussion on the question of relieving hospitals from rates and the argument was put up that hospitals were not centres of production and industry. The Minister of Health himself is anxious that any relief given under the Bill should go to the productive side of industry. Is there any man in the House appreciating what is meant by agricultural land, even as it is defined in this Bill, and knowing that there are acres and acres of such land required by local authorities for building purposes, going to say that the relief now proposed is going to industry?
I came across a case the other day of land which will enjoy the benefit of this Bill at Newport. It was rented to a local farmer at 25s. an acre. The landowner observed that some people were likely to build houses round it. He was very enterprising. He gave them a strip of land for nothing and told the Newport Corporation to get in touch with the Minister of Transport and get him to make a road. They did so. I was reviewing the position the other day and saw the road made, much to the jubilation of the local corporation. He was a jolly good fellow and they thought the world of him. Lord Tredegar had endowed them with this free land and, after the making of this road at national and local expenditure, he is now charging the people £1,200 an acre for land on either side of the road. At the northern end of Manchester there is agricultural land let to local farmers at 21s. an acre. As the result of road making it is now in the market at £800 an acre. If you really want to encourage the productive side of industry by this Bill you should have made a distinction between that kind of land and purely agricultural land, which you are trying to arrive at by definition. It may be too late, but I submit that highly valuable building land now enjoying these advantages as against other rateable property should be excluded from the Bill. The Minister told us there was no political gain or advantage to come out of the Amendment. Perhaps not. I quite agree with the Minister that it goes to the root of the Bill. I am not saying the Minister himself is conscious of it but, consciously or unconsciously, the Government are bribing the agricultural districts at the expense of the taxpayers, and the sooner the taxpayers get to know it the better.
It has been said "What does 2s. a week amount to in the form of a bribe?" But it is more than 2s. a week. The £4,500,000 that you are wiping out by the Bill is nothing of itself. There are the advantages received under the Acts of 1896 and 1923. The agricultural interest will be taking £19,000,000 a year by relief of the rates. I should be the first to welcome any relief of rates if it were given in respect of real, honest industry. I think I have said as much as any man in the House with regard to the relieving of honest industry from the pressure of rates, but we must draw the line when the Government runs too far in the other extreme and begins to subsidise interests which are not industrial interests at all. The 2s. per week is very short of what is involved here. The Minister said political advantage must be weighed as against the exactions that will be placed upon the farmer, and anything said from the Liberal Benches with regard to hospitals will be countered by our tactical action in moving this Amendment. Let us get beyond all this question of political tactics. [ Interruption. ] I am quite frank about it. I would rather see a dozen honest men here than a thousand clever politicians. [ Interruption. ] So long as they would not be found in the pawnshop it would be all right. If you are anxious to help agriculture you should help it on the industrial side and on the development side. You should have adopted the proposition that came from this side of the House.
Our proposal was to give relief for effecting improvements—to give relief for drainage, for general development and for buildings. Even to-day, if I were going into an agricultural district, I should tell the farmers they have no right even to pay rates on their houses. But it is another matter when you come to the question of land, because we know there is an element of value in the land, perhaps not right in the heart of the country, but contiguous to the great marketing centres, which ought to have been rated and taxed. I had to touch on that point, because we have been twitted with offering a blank negation to agriculturists. If the Government had been anxious to help agriculture, they would have given the relief only to that part of the subject which was the result of labour and the expenditure of capital, rather than giving it to the land as such, which must inure to the advantage of the landowner when transfers take place and leases fall in. Even if we take the Minister's own statement that by giving an absolute relief to agriculture you stimulate the industry, what would be the net result? It only means that if you stimulate agriculture you are stimulating the demand for land, and when you stimulate the demand for land and the tenants are crowding in to get more land for expansion and farming, the landowner is now in a supreme position to exact such a rent from the tenant as he could not have exacted if the tenant had been paying that quarter of the rates. I quite agree that to strike out agricultural hereditaments from this Bill is not so much striking at the root of the Bill as striking at the very heart of a very clever and well-set plan of the Government, namely, to tell agricultural people that they must support the Government at the next election in order to get all the fruits promised in this scheme. I know the Bill will pass, but let us hope the time will come when we shall value these things scientifically and really encourage industry and not monopoly.
We always hear interesting arguments when this subject comes up. I want, first of all, to say a word about what was said by the Mover of the Amendment. He complained that the farmers were to be relieved, and said that this was to be a remedy for all their troubles. I can assure him that nothing has ever been proposed in this world—and nothing is likely to be proposed in the next—which we could regard as a remedy for all their troubles. I can assure him that nothing has ever been proposed in this world—and nothing is likely to be proposed in the next—which we could regard as a remedy for all their troubles. He emphasised his statement by saying that, after all, it is not going to give them more than 2s. a week. I could not make out how he got that figure at the time, and the hon. Gentleman the Member for Burslem (Mr. Maclaren) has shown, as a matter of fact, that it will amount to considerably more. I want to pass on to what I have heard stated before by the hon. Member for Burslem. This is a subject which is specially dear to his heart. He has evidently studied the political economy of the subject with the very greatest care, and it must have caused him many hours of anxious toil. From the textbook, economic point of view, you can prove positively that some advantage from a scheme like this is bound to go into the pockets of the landlord, but, when you leave your text-books alone and come to the facts, you find that this is no new experiment.
It has been tried twice before, and on neither occasion has the landlord gained any advantage from it. What has really happened has been, that the advantage has gone into the pockets of the agricultural labourer. If hon. Members will simply study the facts, they will find that that happened, I think, within three years of the Act of 1896. Practically the whole of the relief, and more, that came to the rates went away from the farmers in an increase that took place in agricultural wages. If you take the Act of 1923 for which I was largely responsible, you will find that the same thing happened again, and that by now the whole of that relief, and more, has gone into the pockets of the agricultural labourer. I am sure that hon. Gentlemen opposite want to be honest. I have no doubt that they will go down to their constituencies, and that they will attack us on this subject. But whatever they say, I hope that they will put it honestly. Do let them say: "This is a very wicked thing to do. No Conservative Government ought to have done any such thing, but the net result of it has been that they have put something like £19,000,000 into the pockets of the agricultural labourers of the country."
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
The House divided: Ayes, 264; Noes, 96.
Division No. 285.] AYES. [5.50 p.m. Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Ford, Sir P. J. Mac Robert, Alexander M. Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Makins, Brigadier-General E. Albery, Irving James Foster, Sir Harry S. Malone, Major P.B. Allen, Sir J. Sandeman Fraser, Captain Ian Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Frece, Sir Walter de Margesson, Captain D. Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Atholl, Duchess of Galbraith, J. F. W. Meyer, Sir Frank Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Gates, Percy Milne, J. S. Wardlaw- Balniel, Lord Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) Banks, Sir Reginald Mitchell Gower, Sir Robert Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Grace, John Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Barnett, Major Sir Richard Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Moore, Sir Newton J. Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Grant, Sir J. A. Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Morris, R. H. Bennett, A. J. Greene. W. P. Crawford Morrison. H. (Wilts, Salisbury) Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (W'th's'w, E.) Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph Berry, Sir George Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John Nelson, Sir Frank Bethel, A. Griffith, F. Kingsley Neville, Sir Reginald J. Betterton, Henry B. Grotrian, H. Brent Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Bevan, S. J. Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert Birchall, Major J. Dearman Gunston, Captain D. W. Nuttall, Ellis Blundell, F. N. Hacking, Douglas H. O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh Boothby, R. J. G. Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Pennefather, Sir John Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) Penny, Frederick George Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Perkins, Colonel E. K. Brass, Captain W. Harland, A. Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Briant, Frank Harris, Percy A. Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Harrison, G. J. C. Philipson, Mabel Brocklebank, C. E. R Hartington, Marquess of Pilditch, Sir Philip Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) Preston, William Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Harvey. Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Price, Major C. W. M. Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Haslam, Henry C. Ramsden, E. Brown, Ernest (Leith) Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. Remer, J. R. Buchan, John Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. Rentoul, G. S. Buckingham, Sir H. Henn, Sir Sydney H. Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. Burman, J. B. Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Burton, Colonel H. W. Hills, Major John Waller Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Butler, Sir Geoffrey Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Ropner, Major L. Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy Ruggles-Brice, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. Campbell, E. T. Holt, Capt. H. P. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Carver, Major W. H. Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Rye, F. G. Cautley, Sir Henry S. Hopkins, J. W. W. Salmon, Major I. Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) Samuel, A.M.(Surrey, Farnham) Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.) Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Sandeman, N. Stewart Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Hore-Belisha, Leslie Sanders, Sir Robert A. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. Sanderson, Sir Frank Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Hudson, Capt A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Sandon, Lord Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.) Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Hume, Sir G. H. Savery, S. S. Chapman, Sir S. Hurd, Percy A. Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie Christie, J. A. Hurst, Gerald B. Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Churchman, Sir Arthur C. Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down) Clarry, Reginald George Iliffe, Sir Edward M. Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Cobb, Sir Cyril Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Skelton, A.N. Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Smith-Carington, Neville W. Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Smithers, Waldron Cooper, A. Duff Jephcott, A. R. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Cope, Major Sir William Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Southby, Commander A. R. J. Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Jones, W. N. (Carmarthen) Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Crooke. J. Smedley (Deritend) Kennedy, A. R. (Preston). Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) King, Commodore Henry Douglas Stanley, Lord (Fylde) Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) Curzon, Captain Viscount Knox, Sir Alfred Steel, Major Samuel Strang Dalkeith, Earl of Lamb. J. Q. Storry-Deans, R. Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Streatfeild, Captain S.R. Davies, Dr. Vernon Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey Tasker, R. Inigo Dawson, Sir Philip Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th) Templeton, W. P. Dean, Arthur Wellesley Long, Major Eric Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Drewe, C. Looker, Herbert William Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- Eden, Captain Anthony Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) Edmondson, Major A. J. Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Tinne, J. A. Ellis, R. G. Lynn, Sir R. J. Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) MacAndrew Major Charles Glen Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) Waddington, R. Everard, W. Lindsay Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) Fairfax, Captain J. G. MacIntyre, Ian Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. Falle, Sir Bertram G. McLean, Major A. Warrender, Sir Victor Fanshawe, Captain G. D. Macmillan, Captain H. Watson, Rt. Hon. W.(Carlisle) Fenby, T. D. Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Watts, Sir Thomas Fermoy, Lord Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Wayland, Sir William A. Wells, S. R. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. White, Lieut.-Col Sir G. Dairymple Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Wragg, Herbert Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) Wolmer, Viscount Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) Wamersley, W. J. Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich) Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde) Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley TELLERS FOR THE AYES— Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) Woodcock, Colonel H. G. Major The Marquess of Titchfield and Sir Victor Warrender.
NOES. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife. West) Grundy, T. W. Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) Adamson, W. M. M. (Staff., Cannock) Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland) Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Salter, Dr. Alfred Ammon, Charles George Hardie, George D. Scrymgeour, E. Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bliston) Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) Scurr John Baker, Walter Hirst, G. H. Shinwell, E. Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Sitch, Charles H. Barnes, A. Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Slesser, Sir Henry H. Barr, J. John, William(Rhondda, West) Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Batey, Joseph Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Smith, H. B. Lees- (Kelghley) Bondfield, Margaret Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Snell, Harry Broad, F. A. Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel Kelly, W. T. Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Charleton, H. C. Kennedy, T. Sutton, J. E. Cluse, W. S. Lansbury, George Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H (Derby) Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Lawrence, Susan Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Compton, Joseph Lawson, John James Thurtle, Ernest Connolly, M. Lee, F. Townend, A. E. Cove, W. G. Lowth, T. Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. Dalton, Hugh Lunn, William Viant, S. P. Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Mackinder, W. Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney Day, Harry MacLaren, Andrew Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah Dennison, R. March, S. Wellock, Wilfred Donnico, H. Montague, Frederick Westwood, J. Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer-) Morrison. R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J Gardner, J. P. Naylor, T. E. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Gillett, George M. Oliver, George Harold Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Gosling, Harry Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Windsor, Walter Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Ponsonby, Arthur Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Potts, John S. Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Purcell, A. A. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Groves, T. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Mr. Hayes and Mr. Whiteley.
I beg to move, in page 1, line 14, to leave out the word "freight."
I was in the Chamber the last time a similar Amendment was moved, and the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health said that the mover of it, my hon. Friend the Member for Motherwell (Mr. Barr), had not understood the intentions of the Chancellor of the Exchequer with regard to the rating proposals. I must confess that I do not understand them, and I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman who has spoken understands them. Those of us who have been through the White Paper and have tried to understand the system under which the rating relief is going to be given cannot see why there should be any difference between road transport and railway transport, and between passenger transport and goods transport. The right hon. Gentleman says that relief is going to be given to industry, but there is no method shown to us as to how the relief is going to be given to industry. Surely, it can be argued that people who have to travel to and from their work are very important factors in industry. Freight on the railways is going to be given relief, and passengers travelling on the railways are not to receive any relief. I wonder how they are going to separate them. The railway companies use the same lines. [ Interruption. ] Perhaps hon. Members who appreciate the joke will let us have the benefit of it. I do not think that these interjections are any good for purposes of debate. I really cannot see why freight-transport should be relieved of rates to the extent of 75 per cent. and passengers not so relieved.
6.0 p.m.
If they are going to be relieved and the Minister says that they are to pass on the relief to industry, we ought to know how it will go to industry. How can they arrange for the railway companies to separate that part of their hereditament which is used for freight and that part which is used for passengers? I cannot understand how it will be done. When the railways run their engines on the same track, when the same train carries both passengers and goods, when the same station deals with both passengers and goods, when the same people are employed dealing with passengers and goods and the same buildings are used for passenger and goods work, I cannot understand how it will be arranged so to separate the hereditaments that one will be de-rated and the other will not be de-rated. Assuming that I order something to be sent to my home by passenger train, the goods will go to the passenger station and will be handled in the passenger station, but the carriage in respect of those goods will be de-rated because it is freight, but what about the train which has carried the goods and the station in which the goods have landed; those, I understand, are not to be de-rated. That is one of the Chinese puzzles which has been created by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
What happened in the House last week will raise another difficult position. The railway companies are to be de-rated so far as freight is concerned. Is that to apply when the railway companies have power to go in for road transport? Is the de-rating to apply in respect of the railway companies on the road and not to apply to private companies running road transport? That is a question to which we ought to receive an answer. I am not any more dull of comprehension than other Members of the House, but I must confess that the method of de-rating one thing and not de-rating another is leaving me and it is leaving my hon. Friends in a maze of wonder. We are honest enough to admit that; but I suppose that hon. Members opposite understand how it will be done. We should like to know why railway companies are to be relieved of rating in regard to their hereditaments so far as freight is concerned and private companies are not. Are we to understand that the railway companies will also be de-rated so far as their road transport is concerned, now that they are getting their Act of Parliament, and private companies will not? The right hon. Gentleman said that we had failed to understand the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and I admit that I could not understand him. I do not understand the principle of the matter. I have been trying to understand from the White Paper the formula as to how various local authorities will benefit, but I have not been able to understand it. I do ask the Minister to give us an explanation and to tell us why one hereditament is to be de-rated and another not, seeing that one form of transport is an integral part of industry as much as another.
I beg to second the Amendment.
I am sorry if my right hon. Friend gave the impression, or if I gave the impression, that we did not desire to give whatever explanation we could of any points raised in regard to the Bill. The real distinction which the hon. Member has overlooked is that we are de-rating freight transport hereditaments in order that the relief so given may be handed on in reduced rates and charges to industry. The reason that the relief is not applied to purely passenger-carrying railways is that inasmuch as they do not carry freight traffic they could not pass on any relief which was given in reduced charges for the carriage of goods. That is the reason for the distinction, and I think it will commend itself to the House generally. With regard to the exact definition, we shall have to deal with that when we come to Clause 5.
The object of the Amendment is to introduce a little much-needed simplicity into the Bill. We want to see the relief given to transport as a whole. At the present time it is proposed to relieve railways but not to relieve road transport. We are proposing to relieve docks and public wharves but not to relieve private wharves. A man may have a wharf belonging to his own factory where he discharges or loads his goods, but that is not to be relieved. Why draw this unnecessary distinction between different branches of industry? Manufacturers send their goods sometimes by rail, sometimes by canal, sometimes by road. Any cheapening of these forms of transport would equally assist industry. It may be said that the private contractor who has lorries and carts on the roads cannot pass on the relief, but surely if you relieve a man's own lorries which he uses in his industry you will relieve that industry. We are told that the manufacturer will inevitably pass on the benefit which he receives, to the advantage of the consumer by means of lower prices. We may assume that the road contractors would do the same. As it is, we are to relieve from rates certain freights on the railways because the relief can be passed on in lower charges, and we relieve the freights going to the docks, but we relieve none of the freights that go by private road transport or to private wharves. That is a very foolish and unmanageable scheme. It is foolish because it is an attempt to interfere with the natural development of trade.
If people send goods by road instead of by rail they do it because they know their own business, and there is nothing in the wide world worse than for a Government Department to step in and say to a man engaged in business: "Carry on your business in your own way, but if you choose to send goods by road instead of by rail you will be penalised. If you choose to build a wharf of your own at considerable expense and use it, you would be penalised as against the man who uses public docks and pays the dock dues." This hampering of industry is a very serious thing. Hon. Members opposite seem to think that they are the guardians of industry and that we of the Socialist party do not understand industry. You are not a good Socialist unless you understand something of the infinitely complicated machinery of commerce which has been built up. We do know something about the machinery of commerce, and we cannot look on with equanimity when people put grit into the machine in this way. That is precisely what you are doing when you differentiate against one form of transport. When you make some forms of transport cheaper and easier you are weighting one form of transport against another. There ought to be no distinction between docks and private wharves, railways or road transport services. They are all used indiscriminately by manufacturers, and there does not appear to be any good reason for interfering with their natural operations.
When we look at the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, one seems to see in it one of those little hints which the Chancellor of the Exchequer sometimes drops in regard to great questions of policy. Towards the end of his speech he said:
Are those last words a quotation from the Chancellor of the Exchequer?
The Chancellor of tile Exchequer said: dustry you should relieve all transport and leave it to the unfettered judgment of those who have to send goods as to the means of transport they will use.
I come now to the question of passenger freight. Everybody knows the burden and inconvenience on industry of the transport of workmen. If it were not for the enormous difficulties in getting workers out of London into the most eligible factory properties in the west and south we should see factories springing up in these districts far more rapidly. Anyone who has considered the course of industry in a great city like this knows that the extreme difficulty
of conveying workmen to and from their work is one of the things of which manufacturers have to think when they consider whether they shall move from the centre of London to these open spaces and low rates. If transport is to have relief, then every form of transport should have the same amount of relief. Let us have none of the tiresome distinctions which are at present in the Bill. If we are going to give a subsidy, let us give it on uniform and simple lines.
Question put, "That the word 'freight' stand part of the Bill."
The House divided: Ayes, 258; Noes, 112.
Division No. 286.] AYES. [6.17 p.m. Acland-Troyte, Lieut-Colonel Cope, Major Sir William Haslam, Henry C. Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islingtn., N.) Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. Albery, Irving James Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Allen, Sir J. Sandeman Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Henn, Sir Sydney H. Appiln. Colonel R. V. K. Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) Hills, Major John Walter Atholl, Duchess of Curzon, Captain Viscount Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Dalkeith, Earl of Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy Balniel, Lord Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H Holt, Captain H. P. Banks, Sir Reginald Mitchell Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Davies, Dr. Vernon Hopkins, J. W. W. Barnett, Major Sir Richard Davison, Sir W. H (Kensington, S.) Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Dawson, Sir Philip Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Dean, Arthur Wellesley Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. Bennett, A. J. Drewe, C. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- Eden, Captain Anthony Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n) Berry, Sir George Edmondson, Major A. J. Hume, Sir G. H. Bethel, A. Elliot, Major Walter E. Hurd, Percy A. Betterton, Henry B. Ellis, R. G. Hurst, Gerald B. Bevan, S. J. Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.) Iliffe, Sir Edward M. Birchall, Major J. Dearman Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Blundell, F. N. Everard, W. Lindsay James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Boothby, R. J. G. Fairfax, Captain J. G. Jephcott, A. R. Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Falle, Sir Bertram G. Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B. Fanshawe, Captain G. D. Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) Brass, Captain W. Fermoy, Lord King, Commodore Henry Douglas Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Ford, Sir P. J. Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Brocklebank, C. E. R. Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Knox, Sir Alfred Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Foster, Sir Harry S. Lamb, J. Q. Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Fraser, Captain Ian Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Brown, Briq.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Frece, Sir Walter de Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Buchan, John Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Locker-Lampson. Rt. Hon. Godfrey Buckingham, Sir H. Galbraith. J. F.W. Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th) Burman, J. B. Gates, Percy Long, Major Eric Burton, Colonel H. W. Gilmour. Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Looker, Herbert William Butler, Sir Geoffrey Gower, Sir Robert Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Grace, John Luce. Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Campbell. E. T. Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Lynn, Sir Robert J. Carver, Major W. H. Grant, Sir J. A. MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Cassels, J. D. Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) Cautley, Sir Henry S. Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter MacIntyre, Ian Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Greene, W. P. Crawford McLean, Major A. Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.) Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H.(W'th's'w, E) Macmillan, Captain H. Caralet, Captain Victor A. Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Grotrian, H. Brent Macquisten, F. A. Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. MacRobert, Alexander M. Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.) Gunston, Captain D. W. Makins, Brigadier-General E. Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Hacking, Douglas H. Malone, Major P. B. Chapman, Sir S. Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Margesson, Captain D. Christie. J. A. Hall. Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Churchman, Sir Arthur C. Hamilton, Sir George Merriman, Sir F. Boyd Clarry, Reginald George Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Meyer, Sir Frank Cobb, Sir Cyril Harland, A. Milne, J. S. Wardlaw- Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Harrison, G. J. C. Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George Hartington, Marquess of Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Cooper, A. Duff Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Rye, F. G. Tinne, J. A. Moore, Sir Newton J. Salmon, Major I. Titchfield, Major the Marquess of Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Waddington, R. Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph Sandeman, N. Stewart Wallace, Captain D. E. Nelson, Sir Frank Sanders, Sir Robert A. Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) Neville, Sir Reginald J. Sanderson, Sir Frank Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Sandon, Lord Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley) Nuttall, Ellis Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh Savery, S. S. Watts, Sir Thomas Pennefather, Sir John Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie Wayland, Sir William A. Penny, Frederick George Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Wells, S. R. Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down) White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple- Perkins, Colonel E. K. Skelton, A. N. Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Smith-Carington, Neville W. Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) Smithers, Waldron Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) Philipson, Mabel Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Pliditch, Sir Philip Southby, Commander A. R. J. Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Preston, William Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Wolmer, Viscount Price, Major C. W. M. Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. Womersley, W. J. Ramsden, E. Stanley, Lord (Fylde) Wood, E. (Chest'r. Stalyb'dge & Hyde) Reid, D. D. (County Down) Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley Remer, J. R. Steel, Major Samuel Strang Woodcock, Colonel H. C. Rentoul, G. S. Streatfeild, Captain S. R. Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Wragg, Herbert Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Tasker, R. Inigo. Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich) Ropner, Major L. Templeton, W. P. Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- Captain Bowyer and Sir Victor Warrender.
NOES. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Eiland) Ammon, Charles George Hardle, George D. Runciman, Hilda (Cornwall, St. Ives) Attlee, Clement Richard Harney. E. A. Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Harris, Percy A. Salter, Dr. Alfred Baker, Walter Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Scrymgeour, E. Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Hirst, G. H. Scurr, John Barnes, A. Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Shinwell, E. Barr, J. Hore-Belisha, Leslie Simon, Rt. Hon Sir John Batey, Joseph Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Sitch, Charles H. Bondfield, Margaret Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Slesser, Sir Henry H. Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. John, William (Rhondda, West) Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Briant, Frank Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley) Broad, F. A. Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Bromley, J. Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Snell, Harry Brown, Ernest (Leith) Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Charleton, H. C. Jones, W. N. (Carmarthen) Sutton, J. E. Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Kelly, W. T. Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Compton, Joseph Kennedy, T. Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) Connolly, M. Lansbury, George Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Cove, W. G. Lawrence, Susan Thurtle, Ernest Dalton, Hugh Lawson, John James Townend, A. E. Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Lee, F. Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. Dennison, R. Lowth, T. Viant, S. P. Donnico, H. Lunn, William Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) Mackinder, W. Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah Fenby, T. D. March, S. Wellock, Wilfred Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. Montague, Frederick Westwood, J. Gillett, George M. Morris, R. H. Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. Gosling, Harry Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Coine) Naylor, T. E. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Oliver, George Harold Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Griffith, F. Kingsley Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Windsor, Walter Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Ponsonby, Arthur Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Groves, T. Potts, John S. Grundy, T. W. Purcell, A. A. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Mr. Hayes and Mr. Whiteley.
CLAUSE 2.—(Definition of agricultural hereditaments.)
I beg to which is in page 2, line 21, to leave out the word "or".
This Amendment must be read in conjunction with the next Amendment, which is in page 2, line 21, at the end, to insert the words "or agricultural labourers' cottages."
These two Amendments go together and are intended to include agricultural labourers' cottages in the definition of agricultural hereditaments. At first sight, one would have thought that the term "agricultural labourers' cottages" would have been included in agricultural buildings. A farm is a composite subject, and it includes the land and buildings in which the work in connection with the land is done and the cottages in which the workers live who do the work on the farm, and it is, therefore, difficult to understand why agricultural labourers' cottages are not included. This is the first time we have had a, discussion on this point and I should therefore like to hear from the right hon. Gentleman why they are not included with other adjuncts of the farm. It is not a matter on which one can make a long argument because it is really so obvious. If you regard the farm as one business, then the agricultural labourers' cottage is as much a part of that business as the place where the carts are stored or the pigs are kept.
I beg to second the Amendment.
Although I represent a London constituency I realise the serious nature of the migration from the rural districts to the towns. While we have unemployment in our cities there is a real shortage of labour in the rural districts, and this is due to a large extent to the shortage of cottages. It is difficult to get housing accommodation. A special Bill was promoted by the Government to deal with this problem but it has failed in its purpose, and although we are making this contribution to agriculture by taking the rates off the land, agriculture cannot flourish except you have a virile population living upon it. The human factor is everything. The success of agriculture depends on the right type of person being employed. At one time I represented an agricultural constituency and I realised then, as I have realised since, that it is a constant problem of the farmer and landowner and agriculturist to get the right type of men to carry on the work of the farms. Many types of agricultural labourers have almost disappeared. There is, for instance, the thatcher who is most difficult to find these days. The cause of this is the housing shortage, and it would be a stimulus to the landowner to build cottages if he could get them exempt from rates. That should be obvious to everybody, even to hon. Members opposite.
The purpose of this Bill is to stimulate industry by this relief of rates and if you take the rates off cottages, it will be a stimulus to the landowner and farmer to provide them. Every landowner will admit that one of his difficulties is to let a cottage at a rent that a labourer can pay. If you exempt the cottage from rates you will enable the landowner to let the cottage at a cheaper rate, and so bring it within the modest income of the ordinary agricultural labourer. That would be one of the biggest contributions to the solution of an agricultural problem. The present generation of agricultural labourers is made up largely of old men. The young men have gone to the towns because there is a possibility of providing a home there, while the difficulty of getting a cottage is a very serious factor in preventing their staying on the land. Once you accept the principle that agriculture is a distressed industry deserving of special help, I cannot see why you should differentiate against the cottage in favour of the farm building. The pigsty is to be exempt and the stables are to be exempt, but the agricultural labourer is to be rated. The principle is unsound. If I may use the phrase, the Government had better go the whole hog and do the thing properly.
I assume that we must take this Amendment as another part of the electoral campaign of the Liberal party, and that agricultural labourers' cottages are to be added to the recreation grounds and hospitals and various other things, the relief of which is to be ascribed to the Liberal party. But the argument of the hon. Member who moved the Amendment, that agricultural labourers cottages are part of the necessary equipment of the farm and that therefore they ought to be treated in the same way as agricultural holdings, is not borne out by the terms of the Amendment. I see nothing in the Amendment which ties it down to tied cottages. The Amendment says only "or agricultural labourers' cottages." I think we may take it, from the wording of the Amendment, that it is really the political object of the Amendment about which hon. Members opposite are serious.
I would like to know whether the hon. Member who seconded the Amendment thought that the relief which he suggested would go to the agricultural labourer or to the owner of the cottage, because at some moments in his speech it appeared that it was relief to the agricultural industry and that the same people who were to receive relief on the land were to get relief on the cottages; and at other times, when he got a little bit worked up, it was the agricultural labourer who was being deprived of this benefit which the Liberal party wished to confer on him. If any other Liberal Members speak, perhaps they will tell us in which direction they wish the relief to go, and then we shall know what is in their minds. It would be certainly interesting to be told whether the rents of agricultural labourers' cottages are to be still further reduced if the cottages are to be relieved of three-quarters of the rates.
The right hon. Gentleman wishes to know whether there are any political objects in the Amendments brought before the House. That is a question that can as easily be put to the Government regarding the proposals of the Bill. I would say, with great respect, that it would be as well to take the Amendments on their merits rather than to discuss the motives behind them. Let us see whether there are any merits or not in this Amendment. The right hon. Gentleman, when he is dealing with a farm, realises that of course it is a complete economic unit, and that in some parts of the country the cottages are all let with the farm buildings and the ground, one rent covering the whole thing, and that it would be absolutely impossible to take the cottages apart from the farm or the farm apart from the cottages. The right hon. Gentleman is prepared, when dealing with one economic unit of that kind, to swallow the whole thing. Why should he not apply the principle in this industry also?
The right hon. Gentleman asks, will there be a reduction of the rents, which are now very low? We are all well aware that agricultural labourers' cottage rents are not on an economic basis in very many districts though they are in others, and they are gradually reaching the economic basis round some of the great towns. But in many of the most important agricultural areas of the country the cottage is an essential part of the whole equipment. That being so, the question which the right hon. Gentleman puts to us, Is this going to help a reduction in the rent paid by the labourer? does not arise any more than it arises in other industries. He is speaking of benefit to an industry as a whole. That is the argument he puts forward in every trade, whether it relates to cotton or woollen goods, railways or iron and steel works. It is the industry as a whole of which he begs us to think. Then let him also think of the farming industry as a whole, and not regard cottages as things to be dealt with entirely apart from the other organisations of the industry.
His view, apparently, is that the Government may bring in proposals of this kind with the highest of political motives, but that if anyone tries to improve them there must be something sordid about the matter. There has been a good deal of collaboration on this Bill. Do not let the right hon. Gentleman forget that the Bill is going to emerge from the Report stage a very different Measure from what it was before the Committee stage. The right hon. Gentleman has received very many valuable suggestions from many quarters, and some of them he might easily have dismissed because there was some political advantage on one side or the other. That has not been the way in which he has treated some Amendments, and I hope that in dealing with agriculture he will not think of it merely as a plaything of politics.
I am very surprised at the line taken by the right hon. Gentleman in view of the speech which he made on the Second Reading of the Bill. If he returns to that speech he will find that he made reference to contributions from all quarters of the House for improvement of the Bill, and pointed out clearly that there were two possible ways of moving Amendments—either by way of excluding certain properties which were first of all designed to get benefits under the terms of the Bill, or secondly, by including certain kinds of property which were not in the first draft included in the Bill. We have taken what we think is the better way of the two. Other hon. Members have taken the other way. Certainly it does not lie in the mouth of the right hon. Gentleman to complain of Members on this side because they have tried to add to this Measure properties which he did not first design to bring in. We have tried to leave out breweries and one or two other properties, but on the whole, of the 93 Amendments put down after the Second Reading, the great majority were designed to follow the right hon. Gentleman's own hint by including properties which the Government themselves had not thought about in their original draft or in their hasty discussion of the Measure. The right hon. Gentleman therefore has no right to complain. It is he and his Government who have chosen the method of discrimination. We would have preferred a method which would have spread evenly the benefit over the whole rated population and would not have discriminated between one property and another or one industry and another or one man and another. Our Amendments are thoroughly workable and cannot be treated as merely political. They are designed to work out the right hon. Gentleman's principle of discrimination, inside the terms of his own Bill. Since we have chosen that method we deserve something better from the right hon. Gentleman. He need not worry, for we shall not. We shall be prepared to defend our attitude on the Bill outside this House as we have done inside.
Amendment negatived.
I beg to move, in page 2, line 27, after the word "underwood," to insert the words:
"and exceeding one-quarter of an acre used for the purpose of poultry farming."
This Amendment is the fulfilment of a promise made on the Committee stage, that I would further consider the position of poultry farmers.
I would like to thank the right hon. Gentleman for having moved this Amendment, and to assure him that there was no political object behind our proposal in this matter when we first submitted it to him.
Amendment agreed to.
CLAUSE 3.—(Definition of industrial hereditaments.)
I beg to move, in page 3, line 10, after the word "mine," to insert the words "or mineral railway."
This Amendment must be taken in conjunction with another which appears on the Paper later in my name, and gives the definition of the words "mineral railway." The two Amendments arise out of a discussion on the Committee stage, when it was represented to me that there was a great number of private railways connecting collieries with a shipping port, a dock or a staithe, or sometimes with a public railway, and that under the Bill as drafted these private railways would get no relief such as we give to public railways. These private railways are not in competition with public railways. It is true that the public railways which are to be de-rated are not to keep the benefits of the de-rating in their own hands, but are to pass it on to certain selected traffics in the form of a rebate on freights. It was pointed out that, particularly on the north-east coast, very large quantities of coal—16,000,000 tons—were estimated to pass yearly over these private railways, and that the collieries owning the railways would be in a position which would be unfair to them if they obtained no relief whilst their competitors, who happened to use public railways, were entitled to the relief which was to be given to these selected trades.
My difficulty was that it seemed to me that the private railways, if they were treated as industrial hereditaments, would get more than their share of relief, because they would get the whole relief of the rating upon their particular lines; but, I understand that they do not really occupy a favourable position compared with other collieries, because other collieries will have the benefit of the rebate in the freight on coal—which is the result of the de-rating of the railway carrying all kinds of traffic—and that general de-rating, which we are concentrating upon coal and other traffics will, in fact, give even greater relief to the collieries using the public railways, than would be obtained by the private railway, though they are de-rated to the extent of three-fourths. For reasons which, I think, must be obvious, these private railways cannot be treated as though they were public railways. I think the House is aware that the arrangement is that the public railways are to put their rating reliefs into a pool, and from that pool is to be drawn the relief which is to be given to selected traffics. You cannot include the private railways in that pool and, therefore, there was nothing left for us to do, if we were to give relief to them, but simply to treat them as industrial hereditaments. That is the effect of the Amendment which I am now moving. The definition "industrial hereditament" is extended to cover not only mines but also mineral railways, and the definition of "mineral railway" which comes later applies that term to these private colliery railways.
I feel very much disappointed in one sense that my right hon. Friend has not been able to include this Amendment in Clause 5 of the Bill. During the Committee stage I moved an Amendment which would have had the effect of including these railways as transport hereditaments and not industrial hereditaments. That change would involve a great difference in the rebate or benefit that is to come to them. I need not tranverse again the ground which I took on that occasion. The Minister, from his own standpoint, has stated the position quite fairly, and I recognise the difficulty which arises in his mind is that he cannot include private railways in the same category as public railways. May I with great respect make a suggestion? I We recognise that this Bill only deals with the machinery of the Government proposals, and we shall not know the exact position until the second Bill has been produced. I would like to know the method by which the pooling of the relief in the case of the public railways is to be carried out. For my own part, I take it that the relief to be given to the public railways will be paid by the Government to the local authorities, and that the amount thus received by the public railways will be transferred to the relief of industry. If it is a case of a cash payment into a pool, I cannot see any difficulty about including the private railways in that pool as well as the public railways. Private railways are essentially the same as public railways as regards expenditure on upkeep and the same principle ought to apply to both. If the private railways were de-rated as transport heredita- ments, they would pay into the pool and each colliery would receive an equitable amount out of the pool.
The Minister has not yet defined the method by which the relief is to be given to the collieries. If, for example, it is to be in the form of payment per ton mile, you will have the anomalous position that collieries a considerable distance away from the shipping point will receive a heavy percentage of de-rating or relief, while others will receive a smaller relief, and the results will be disadvantageous to many collieries. If you are going to exclude the private railways altogether, except in so far as they are de-rated as industrial hereditaments, then you are going to exclude from the aggregate relief the carriage of some 16,000,000 tons of coal, while within a narrow margin you will be extending greater relief in other respects. You are going to place the collieries, who will not receive any advantage, at an even greater disadvantage than you would do otherwise. I hope the Minister will seriously consider these aspects of the question. I am not arguing from the standpoint of an individual colliery. This Bill is for the relief of industry and for the relief, primarily, of great industries like the coal industry. It is on behalf of that industry as a whole that I ask the Minister to make the distribution of the relief equitable. I hope that even yet the Minister may see his way to withdraw his Amendment and to accept the proposals which I made on the Committee stage by including the private railways as transport hereditaments and placing all on a basis of equality. I should also like a definition of what the right hon. Gentleman includes in the term "mineral railway."
I wish I found it possible to agree with my hon. Friend who has just spoken, but it seems to me that the argument put forward by the Minister as to the way in which the benefit given to the railway undertakings is to be transferred to the customer, is overwhelming. If that method is to prevail, I cannot see any other way of dealing with the matter, except that put forward by the Government. Of course, if there were some other method of adjustment—we have not any other method before us now and we shall not know if there is one until we get the second Bill—it might support what the hon. Member for Sunderland (Mr. Thompson) has just said; but, on this Amendment, at all events, the Minister has taken the right line. He has regarded the mineral railway as part of the mine. Just now we are trying to persuade him to regard the agricultural labourer's cottage as part of the farm. He has now adopted that principle and we commend him highly for doing so. We are also grateful that he has been good enough to include one of the proposals which we put forward in the Committee stage, by including in the definition which will come up later ropeway railways as well as railways with two lines.
7.0 p.m.
It seems that the net result of the discussion of this question in Committee is that the Minister has now included private railways, for the purposes of de-rating, as industrial hereditaments. I do not agree that this proposal will give a real advantage where it is most necessary. The newer collieries have not had to make private railways like the older collieries. In the old days they got coal nearer the surface and far from railways or docks, and they had to make their own roadways for transport. Sometimes they began with horse-drawn transport, and, gradually, an elementary kind of railway was evolved. Afterwards, they were compelled to make their own railways and in many parts, including Northumberland, these railways now run from points far inland to the shipping places. The colliery companies owning railways and carrying their own coal over long distances will be penalised because they are not getting the advantage in relation to the carriage of coal on the public railways which the newer companies are getting. They are penalised because they laid their own railways in the old days. The right hon. Gentleman proposes to include these private railways as industrial hereditaments, but I am sure that particularly in Scotland and in the more remote parts it would be in harmony with the object of the Bill, and would be to the general advantage, to have the three-quarters put into the pool and their share taken from that pool afterwards. I cannot understand why the Minister refuses to accept that proposal. Those districts where the pioneer work has been done in the production of coal are going to be punished, because they are far removed from docks and staiths. It does not seem to me that it will simplify matters to include these private railways as industrial hereditaments. It would be just as simple to regard them as part of the general railway system. It is a very good thing that the right hon. Gentleman has included the term "ropeway" along with "tramway" in the Amendment to which we will come later. May we take it that, where a private company runs a ropeway a certain distance and then joins a public railway, that ropeway will get relief in the same way as one that runs continuously from the line?
One that is broken by a public railway?
Yes. Will that be included as an industrial hereditament just the same as one that is continuous?
Yes.
I do not know if the Minister has yet taken the final decision to include the private railways as industrial hereditaments rather than under freight-transport hereditaments in Clause 5. If he has not, I hope he will leave himself open to representations on this matter, because I imagine that what is going to happen is that the newer companies, the newer coalfields, because they have had the opportunity of choosing their places for sinking near to railways that are made, have had certain advantages over the older companies, who have had to make their own private railways. In the long run there is, of course, a good deal to be said for the course the right hon. Gentleman has taken, but if he wishes to help those who most need help, then he ought, I think, to have taken the course of amending Clause 5.
We are all grateful to the Minister for meeting the case put forward on the Committee stage. It is true he has gone a long way towards removing the anomaly which was pointed out, but, on the other hand, in doing so, he has created another anomaly in the position of different private owners. It does not apply so much to my own area, but I gather that, as regards the Northern coast, the position is not so clear there and, within certain areas and with certain companies, the rating relief will be large in respect of the tonnage they carry and their position will be much better than other companies where the rating relief will be small in comparison. He has therefore created an anomaly between two individual companies owning private railways. If he were to include all the coal carried over these private railways in the general pool and get a flat rate of relief from the railway pool, in the long run it would be found that he had treated the private railways more fairly. However, I do not want to labour the point, and thank him for this concession.
I supported my hon. Friend when he moved this Amendment on the freight-transport Clause, but I confess that the present method seems better to me. The difficulty originally was that you had a colliery with a light railway connecting its output to the public railway. For the purposes of helping the production of a colliery, the part of the line that is public would be de-rated, but there would be no de-rating with regard to the line that was private. That struck me as strange. The Minister has met it in this way. He says, "I am prepared to de-rate this private line. The only question is whether I shall de-rate in such a manner that it will have to pass into the pool or in such a manner that the relief will pass into the hands of the producer. I prefer the latter, because, if you de-rate from the point that it joins the public railway, then the relief would pass into the pockets of the owner of the railway, which in this case is the colliery, and it is much simpler to say that you shall first de-rate the light railway instead of de-rating the light railway, and then saying that you will tell the light railway how much to return to the colliery." This method seems much more simple. These light railways and all the paraphernalia of the mine are part and parcel of one undertaking. Therefore, I welcome the proposal.
I would like to ask for information whether the words "or mineral railway" would cover a railway from a quarry? The Minister ruled during our previous discussion that stone quarries, for instance came under the definition of a factory and not a mine. It is obvious that the railway of a stone or slate quarry deserves de-rating just as much as a railway serving a mine.
It appears to me that the question is one which arises on a later Amendment—the definition of a mineral railway. Would it not be more in order then?
I am perfectly willing to raise it then.
Will not the Minister's Amendment necessitate an alteration in Sub-section (1) of this Clause where the proviso runs, "not being a freight-transport hereditament"? The insertion of a mineral railway will surely be the insertion of a freight-transport hereditament, and it appears to me that an Amendment will be necessary if this Amendment is carried.
I want to say a few words in reply to the speeches made in regard to what is an important Amendment, which has excited interest in all parts of the House. With regard to the point made by the hon. Member who has just spoken, I do not think there is any inconsistency. A freight-transport hereditament is defined, and does not include a private railway. Therefore, it would be quite in order to say that an industrial hereditament means a hereditament occupied and used in this way. In other words, you make a mineral railway an industrial and not a freight-transport hereditament.
May I call attention to the definition of freight-transport hereditaments in Clause 5:
"A hereditament occupied and used wholly or partly for railway transport purposes."
It does not stop there. If the hon. Member will read the whole of the Clause, he will see that a private railway does not come in as part of the definition of a freight-transport hereditament. I have received both praise and complaint for the Amendment I have put down. I have been praised by hon. Members of the Liberal party because they found that I am logical, and that I am in accordance with ideas which they themselves have expressed. On the other hand, some of my hon. Friends feel that, though I have gone some way to meet them, I have not gone far enough. I am afraid in what I shall say I shall displease both those who have praised me and those who have blamed me. My first idea, in considering the point raised on the Committee stage, was to try to meet the difficulties pointed out by my hon. Friends in very much the way which they are now suggesting, namely, by keeping these private railways as freight-transport hereditaments, and making the necessary adjustments, so that those collieries might receive, in respect of coal carried over private railways, substantially what they would have received if it had been carried over a public railway. If that had been a practical method, it would have been a logical one, because, obviously, my desire was that all collieries should, as far as possible, be treated alike in this matter and that the circumstances, which have arisen in times when there was no question of rating relief, should not be allowed to weight the amount of relief obtained one way or another. Therefore, my first idea was to take the rating relief obtained by the mineral railways, as we will now call them, and to put that into the general pool, and let the private railways draw out from the general pool what they would have drawn if they had been public railways.
Will the Minister reply to the question raised by my hon. Friend on a later Amendment? The guillotine has no respect for a Minister, and he will have no chance of replying if he does not do so now.
Before I come to that, I will continue my argument, in which the hon. Member has interrupted me. Why did I not take that method? In the first place, I am not quite satisfied in my own mind that a private railway is in exactly the same position as a public railway. Before the War, as far as I know, there was no complaint on the part of colliery owners or other industrial firms of high railway charges. Naturally, there was the ordinary desire that charges should be lower if possible, but there was no outcry that railway charges were altogether exorbitant and unreasonable. The cry that has arisen has been since the War, and it is in respect of increasing railway charges that a very great burden has been felt both by industry in general and by collieries in particular. Can it be said that there has been the same increase in the burden of private railways that there has been in public railways? I doubt it.
The second reason—and this was really the one which caused me to decide against treating these private railways as freight-transport hereditaments—was the practical difficulty which was represented to me in the way of working an arrangement through the pool which is conducted by the public railways. To begin with, what are the public railways going to say about it? Admittedly, ex hypothesi on the argument of my hon. Friend, the private railways are going to take more out of the pool than they put into it, and that is not going to suit the public railways. I have not asked them what their answer would be to such a question, though I imagine they would say, "No; we have been ready to assent to the institution of a general pool, we have been ready to allow the whole of the rating relief which we get to be handed over to that pool, and we are hoping to get something back for our pains in the increase of traffic which will come over our lines, but here we are going to give away something and get nothing in return." On the contrary, it only means that the benefit goes to those railways which are competing with them, and, therefore, I do not imagine that the proposal will meet with their approval.
But when you come to consider on what basis you are to estimate the amount that is to be taken out of the pool by the private railways, you come up against some very formidable difficulties indeed. You have to investigate the circumstances in the case of every one of these private railways, of which there is a very large number, you have to ascertain the conditions, the service which is given, the distance over which the freight has to be paid, and half-a-dozen other facts and figures which no doubt could be supplied by the owners, but can they be taken unchecked as supplied by the owners? There again I think you must have an investigation; you must have some certainty that no mistake has been made, and then you—
That can all be verified.
I quite agree, but there would be a great deal to verify, and that is going to make a long, cumbrous, and difficult operation. But when you have got that and found out what is the service which is being given by the private railways, then you have to find out what would have been the charge if it had been a public and not a private railway before you can decide what is the amount to be passed on. I am advised that these difficulties are most formidable, that they would be found impossible to get over, that they would certainly add very materially to the work, and might, indeed, make it very doubtful whether it would be possible to get the scheme in at all by the date at which we are aiming. In view of all those circumstances, although, as I said, my first inclination had been in the direction which has been advocated by my hon. Friend, I was obliged to come to the conclusion that that was not a practicable method, and I had, therefore, to fall back upon that one which is now embodied in my Amendment.
The hon. Member for Chester-le-Street (Mr. Lawson) has asked that I should not even now entirely shut my mind to further arguments or considerations. I do not know that I ever shut my mind to new facts or arguments. if such can be produced and they are sufficiently weighty to overbalance those which I have put forward, and certainly I would not shut my mind to them and would consider them further; but I am bound to say that I am not very hopeful that it may be found possible to do anything of the kind, because this matter has received a great deal of consideration, and it has been really a genuine desire on my part to go as far as I could in meeting what I recognise as a fair argument. Therefore, if I have not been able to do more, it is because I have not been able to see a way round or through these difficulties. In case the action of the Guillotine should make it impossible for us to discuss at any length the Amendment which gives the definition of mineral railway, I think I can answer that question now and say that it refers to a mine and not a quarry, and as a quarry is not a mine, therefore a quarry would not come in.
Like previous speakers, I frankly admit that the right hon. Gentleman has gone a considerable distance to meet us, and I also quite frankly agree that it is a question that presents certain difficulties, but there is one other aspect of the matter which requires consideration and which I would like the right hon. Gentleman to keep in mind. While the extra charges have not increased to the same extent in the one case as in the other, as the right hon. Gentleman said, there are other difficulties that are borne by many of these collieries served by private railways that are not borne by the newer collieries. The older collieries have gradually accumulated difficulties with which the newer collieries do not have to contend, and one has been getting an advantage that the other has not been, getting and has been taking that advantage to meet the disadvantages from which the older collieries suffer, so that when you come along to a rating improvement they are practically on an equal footing, and if you give a bigger relief to those served by public railways than to those served by private railways, then you are weighting the balance against the older collieries.
There is no doubt that the method which you propose will give only a certain amount of relief to the collieries served by private railways. They will not be able to participate in the relief that will come from the publicly-owned railways, and to that extent they are suffering an injustice as compared with those served by privately-owned railways. I think the condition of affairs in the coal trade at the moment is such that it is worth the right hon. Gentleman giving the greatest care and consideration to it before this Bill is finally disposed of in another place. The right hon. Gentleman's proposal does not meet the situation fully. I do not know that it meets it to half the extent that the collieries served by publicly-owned railways will be met. I think it will be something like half the advantage.
Or one-fourth.
In any case, it is well worth the right hon. Gentleman giving more consideration to this question, and I am glad that he has signified his intention of giving that further consideration.
Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move, in page 3, line 14, after the word "workshop," to insert the words:
Nevertheless, I am not anxious to see the Government alter this part of the Bill, and I should be quite satisfied to think that this and many other Clauses were to be maintained by the Minister, because whatever one may say about the Government's scheme, there is no doubt, from the point of view of the Opposition, that the weakest part of the whole scheme is the fact that you are giving money relief to numbers of wealthy firms. We have heard cases quoted in the House, and complaints from the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the use made by the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) of this fact in pointing out one or two prominent examples of relief being given to wealthy firms. This Amendment that I am moving takes the form of removing certain industries from the benefits, and this is done for a two-fold reason. One is to try and use the money to better purpose by perhaps including relief to some other industries or ratepayers who seem to us to need it more, and the other is at any rate to take out of this Measure industries that already have had certain definite benefits conferred upon them by the State. Broadly speaking, the Amendment will take from the benefits of the Bill any of those industries which have the advantage of coming under the working of the safeguarding policy. It stands to reason that, when a few industries are given protection, especially in a country like this where they have free trade and cheap food for their workers, they have an advantage which other industries are not receiving. This Amendment suggests that, at any rate, they might forego having a further advantage at the expense of the public by coming under the Government's rating relief scheme.
Surely those industries which come under the safeguarding procedure are only put on a competitive equality with their Continental rivals?
That means that they are in a comfortable position at the present time. If the hon. Gentleman tells me that they are not, I will be more inclined to withdraw this Amendment, but I was going forward with it with confidence, for I thought that these industries were in a very satisfactory condition. If the hon. Gentleman, how- ever, disputes that, I have been badly misinformed. I think someone has published a pamphlet from the other side pointing out in what a very satisfactory position all these industries were. At any rate, some of them, such as artificial silk, are in a very satisfactory position, and if the hon. Gentleman does not say all of them are in a satisfactory position, I am surprised.
I say that they are in a satisfactory position in that they can employ more people at the present time.
There can be no special need to give them further assistance at the present time, because the Chancellor of the Exchequer has told us constantly that one of the great difficulties is to get the money. Why trouble, therefore, about the industries that are getting on fairly well? Why not keep all the money that you possibly can for those industries that are suffering very badly? This is the whole point of the Amendment, and it seeks to omit these industries on the basis of what I understand is the declared opinion of hon. Gentlemen opposite, that their condition is satisfactory, and that therefore we should be fully justified in taking them from the category of those that will be helped by this Bill.
I beg to second the Amendment.
It is one of the curious phenomena of this House that, whenever a Measure is sought to enable employment to be extended and to increase the standard of life of the people, a Labour Member will stand up and oppose it. Here we have been struggling for a long period to secure some measure of safeguarding for certain industries, which would have been completely extinguished by their foreign competitors but for the policy of the Government. The hon. Member for Hillsborough (Mr. A. V. Alexander) has fought strenuously against all these safeguarding proposals, and he is supported to-night by the hon. Member for Finsbury (Mr. Gillett), who wants to exclude those industries, to which this very small concession of safeguarding has been applied by the beneficent policy of the Government, from the advantages of this Bill. All that safeguarding has done for these industries is to enable them to place themselves on a reasonably competitive level with their foreign rivals. To do otherwise, and to put a man out of a job, always seems to appeal to hon. Gentlemen opposite. The argument produced by the hon. Gentleman who moved the Amendment is one of the most extraordinary that we have heard in this House for a long time. He wants these industries, struggling as they have been for a long time, and helped as they are now by the intervention of the Government, to be excluded from any additional advantage which might be given to them by a, reduction of their rates to the extent of three-quarters, which will enable them to employ a still larger number of people, extend their output, and lead in many instances to the creation of new industries.
The hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillsborough, that wise philosopher of the Labour party, sits and smiles back at me and supports this Amendment. That is the sort of appeal that the Labour party makes to this country. Here we have a Bill which, for the first time in our history, aims at giving relief to productive industries, and immediately a Member of the Labour party, the alleged protagonist of the wage-earning classes, gets up and moves that an industry, which was practically extinguished because of foreign competition, and has been relieved by the policy of the Government, shall be excluded from the provisions of this Bill. I hope that it will be made plain that this kind of attack upon the interests of working people of this country—those who are employed and who may be still further employed in safeguarded industries—comes from the Labour benches. We on this side of the House are trying in and out of season to help the wage-earning classes, and we get perfectly sick of the speeches which we hear from the other side. Never have I heard in the three-and-a-half years since our Administration came into office, a single constructive proposal from the Labour benches—not even from that great statesman, the hon. Member for Hillsborough—to help the working class. After the efforts which we have made to safeguard the livelihood of the working class, an hon. Gentleman gets up, and with that fullness of wisdom which the Labour party possesses, seeks to destroy this measure of safeguarding. This thing would be a joke in politics if it were not so sad, and I protest against wasting the time of the House with this kind of Amendment, while there are out of employment men who will have an opportunity of being employed by the provisions of this Bill.
In a very remarkable and eloquent speech, the hon. Member for Moseley (Mr. Hannon) has informed us that these safeguarded industries are extremely prosperous. All I understand my hon. Friend the Member for Finsbury (Mr. Gillett) to suggest is that, if industries are prosperous and get assistance in another direction, they do not want assistance under this Bill. If there were enough money to go round to assist hospitals, agricultural labourers and many other industries, then the safeguarded industries might have this double assistance. What we say is that they get protection to enable them to raise prices against the community, and they ought not to come cap in hand asking for charity as well. [ Interruption. ] They are going to have a dole at the expense of the transport workers, the people connected with—
Does the hon. Gentleman seriously tell the House that reduction of rates to the extent of three-fourths, to enable a productive industry to employ more people, is charity?
If the industries are already prosperous, and already doing well, as the hon. Member suggests, it does amount to giving them a dole to ask the general community to pay 75 per cent. of their rates out of the Petrol Duty. The hon. Member said that these industries were almost ruined before safeguarding. Am I to understand that the motor industry and the artificial silk industry are ruined?
The hon. Member knows perfectly well that, had it not been for the restoration of the McKenna duties, the motor industry would have been in a very poor condition.
I have the greatest respect for Mr. Morris. He is a man of genius and would have held up his head in any event. The same applies to Austin and Rolls-Royce, and I should have thought that it was possible, even without safeguarding, for them to have prospered. I would say the same in regard to artificial silk. Mr. Courtauld was another genius, and the artificial silk industry was prospering before it got protection. Mr. Courtauld did not ask for it. He was quite prepared to face the world market, and he was quite satisfied to have all the world's artificial silk goods pouring in, because he knew that, with the genius of English chemists and the ingenuity of the British manufacturer, he would be able to produce as cheaply as anybody else. This Amendment provides a way of getting out of the difficulty of giving a present to prosperous industries. It is a constructive Amendment, which I should have thought would have appealed to the Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who has not enough money to go round to give relief where it is deserved. After all, it has to be admitted that this is a proposal to differentiate between various industries—the principle has been accepted, it is part of the scheme—and that being so is it not fair for the hon. Member for Finsbury to come down with a constructive proposal to differentiate between certain industries who have what hon. Members opposite call the great advantage of a protective market and the safeguarding machinery, and to say that we ought not to give them the double advantage of also getting a dip into the pockets of the general public by giving them a relief of 75 per cent. of their rates?
This is a very interesting discussion. I am surprised that this Amendment has come from the Socialist benches, because I remember hearing the late Chancellor of the Exchequer saying only a little while ago that the particular industries which the hon. Member's Amendment seeks to withdraw from the benefit of the rating relief scheme were really worse off through safeguarding than they were before. Therefore, it is rather extraordinary that the hon. Member should come forward with this proposal, though not more extraordinary than that the hon. Member for South-west Bethnal Green (Mr. Harris), who is always a weak echo of the Socialist party in this House, should be supporting him on this occasion. I think the hon. Members who have put down this Amendment have not followed out exactly all that it means; I believe it goes much further than they had intended. I am advised that this Amendment would cover a very wide range of hereditaments. In the first place it would take out of the benefits of the Bill the industries which come under eight revenue duties with countervailing excise duties, including beer, playing cards, mechanical lighters, silk and artificial silk, spirits, sugar, tobacco and wine. It would also include industries which come under eight revenue duties without countervailing excise duty, including cinematograph films, clocks and watches, dried fruits, cocoa, coffee, motor cars, musical instruments and tea. Then the makers of 22 articles with protective duties would also be included within the terms of the Amendment, such as makers of optical glass, wireless apparatus, and the rest. While there is no exact information available as to the number of factories which would be affected by the Amendment it would certainly be very large indeed. Another curious feature about the Amendment is that besides covering factories making complete articles it would affect those factories which make parts of the articles, as well, also, as factories making articles of which the dutiable articles form only part. There are, of course, many factories making parts or accessories of motor cars, such as lamps, speedometers and the like, and many factories making jam, biscuits, confectionery and the like of which sugar or cocoa form part.
There is, possibly, a much large number of hereditaments which the Labour party would withdraw from the Bill—I hope their action will be duly noted throughout the country—and those are mills producing tissues of mixed cotton and artificial silk or wool and artificial silk, in respect of which, as hon. Members know, a very rapid development is taking place. I understand that at this moment a large scheme is being launched, involving a large number of spinning mills, with the object of manufacturing yarns of artificial silk and cotton. This proposal of the Labour party would deprive those factories of the benefits of this Measure, while other hereditaments and factories would receive that benefit. I understand that the argument of the Mover of the Amendment is that indus- tries which are protected from foreign competition are not in need of rating relief, but, apart from the question of general policy, it is to be noted that that argument does not apply in the case of spirits, beer, silk, tobacco, and sugar, each of which is subject to Excise Duty as well as to Customs Duty. All those are covered by the Amendment which the hon. Member has so freely and generously sponsored this evening. There is a still larger number of factories which are engaged in the manufacture of material which is or may be used later in the manufacture of an article liable to duty. Thus, under this extraordinary proposition we should have included all iron and steel which may be used later in the manufacture of motor cars, cutlery and scientific instruments, and all cotton which may be used in making gloves and lace. The hon. Members who have put down their Amendment—I have no doubt on proper advice and fully understanding what it means—would exclude the hereditaments of all those manufacturers from the benefit of the scheme.
I hope that on the platforms of the country throughout the next few weeks hon. Members opposite will explain exactly what would be the result of their proposition. We have had a number of extraordinary Amendments to this Bill, but I venture to say that this really is the limit, and I do not think any hon. Gentleman who has seriously considered what the effect of this proposal would be would, if he had to be personally responsible for it, care to accept it. Whatever object there may be behind the proposal, whatever the motive which it is designed to accomplish, obviously this Amendment is so utterly impossible and, if I may say so respectfully, of such a ridiculous character, that I do not think even the hon. Members opposite will support it in the Division lobby.
The Parliamentary Secretary has been pleased to treat this Amendment in a somewhat jocular manner, and has given his opinion as to what the effect of it would be. I should imagine that what he has stated is really the result of very careful memorising of a brief supplied by his Department explaining what might possibly come within the terms of the Amendment, but I believe there is hardly any part of his argument which could be sustained before a tribunal which had to decide which of those industries really came within the Amendment. So the right hon. Gentleman must not think that we are either frightened or warned off by the terrible picture he painted as to the number of industries which are covered by the Amendment. If, as he says, all those industries are covered by it, what a case he gives us when we are criticising the Government's safeguarding policy! If what he says is true, it means that a whole range of industries, far and away beyond the primary industries to which the safeguarding duties have been applied, have now become subject to Protection, and that we are very much nearer to the position of having a general tariff than the country generally seems to recognise.
We move this Amendment with the object which was explained by the hon. Member for Finsbury (Mr. Gillett), and the Parliamentary Secretary has carefully refrained from replying to the case which was put by him to the House. We have not hidden from the House that we dislike the whole basis of this scheme of relief, because this de-rating proposal is absolutely unfair in its incidence. I want to go even further than my hon. Friend the Member for Finsbury, and to say that the scheme in operation, instead of developing productive industry, will in many cases retard it; and I will try to prove my case. The hon. Member for Moseley (Mr. Hannon) was a little jocular and had a few gentle satirical thrusts at my expense, but I do not mind the badinage of the hon. Member. He says we never put forward constructive proposals. I will give him a constructive proposal. The Government ought to stop relieving the taxation of the rich and should take taxation off the poor, and thus increase the purchasing power of the common people. In that way they would do more to stimulate productive industry in this country than they will do by this scheme.
Does the hon. Member call that a constructive proposal?
The hon. and gallant Member may place his own interpretation upon it; but if you say that increasing the taxation of the rich and relieving the taxation of the consumer is a destructive proposal, and we suggest the converse of that, I think we are entitled to say it is a constructive proposal. How is this scheme going to work out? This part of the Bill is to be used to increase the burden of the general consumer in order to relieve the actual costs of the producer. If you were thereby giving a relief to the producer which he was able to pass on to the general consuming community there would be something to be said for the scheme, but that is not the fact. Safeguarded industries have been selected for inclusion in this Amendment largely because they claim that they need protection in the home market, that they cannot develop their exports as they would like until they have a far larger grip of the home market. Let us see how this relief is going to affect the productive industries which are producing for the home markets. I think I am entitled to quote the cooperative movement's facts and figures in relation to production to the home markets. From our productive factories in England and Wales, excluding Scotland, we had last year a productive output value £27,000,000. What relief do we get? We get a relief of £67,500—on a productive output of £27,000,000! That is rather less than one-fourth of 1 per cent. Does the hon. Member for Moseley suggest that that can possibly be passed on to the consumer in the price of the articles? Of course it cannot.
All that the relief does is to increase the profit of the producer. That observation will apply very largely to all the industries affected by this rating relief scheme which are producing for the home markets; and side by side with it we shall have this anomaly: two-thirds of the petrol on which the tax is levied to produce the revenue for the scheme is used for commercial transport in such a way that the burden of that tax can be passed on to the purchasers of the goods. Two-thirds of the revenue for the scheme will be raised in a manner which will make it possible to pass the extra charge on to the consumer. In that way, we shall be restricting the purchasing power of the consumer while actually increasing the margin of the producer, though not increasing it enough to enable him to pass on relief to his customers. How will that work out in the case of particular industries? The Parliamentary Secretary seemed to be quite concerned, because we had included in the Amendment certain industries which not only have a customs duty but an excise duty as well. I would like to ask him whether he can really justify his case? Take beer, wine and spirits. Does he suggest that any one of those, if they are all productive industries in this country—I am not quite sure about wine; I think the production of wine here is very small—needs relief? As a good Nonconformist, does he suggest that they require relief? I am quite certain that he is not prepared to answer. I would like to hear the Parliamentary Secretary defending that proposal on the platform at the next Wesleyan Conference, where he is held, and probably quite rightly so, in great respect.
8.0 p.m.
Then he mentioned the case of sugar. What is the use of his coming along and saying that we are doing something foolish in including an industry like the sugar industry? He knows perfectly well that, although there may be to a certain extent a countervailing excise duty, as a matter of fact, it has a protective turn, and that in the case of home-grown sugar you not only have protection to the extent of something like 5s. 10d. per cwt., but that you also have a subsidy which until next September will be equal to about 110 per cent. of the import value of the product of the industry. Does the right hon. Gentleman—and I would like his attention, in spite of the blandishments of the hon. Member for Moseley—suggest that that industry, which has a customs and excise duty and has also a subsidy of 110 per cent. of the value of its product, is in need of rate relief? If so, let the hon. Member ask for the White Paper which gives the balance-sheets of the sugar-producing companies which have received the Government subsidy, and he will see that not only the English, but the foreign companies also have written down their capital and have put large sums of money to reserve, which will enable them to pay 12½ per cent. dividend free of tax. It is almost impossible to find out what is the extent of the profits of these companies, and hon. Members opposite know that as well as I do. You may find a factory here and there in an unfavourable position, but what I have stated is the general position.
Take the other class of factories. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has given a preference of 2s. 4d. a cwt. in the last Budget, in addition to the preference they had before, and so well are they doing at the present moment that I saw last week that Messrs. Tate and Lyle have been able to form a new company to take over the Greenock factory. It does not matter which way you look at this matter, because it is perfectly plain that, so far as productive industry is used for the home market the result will be further relief to those already protected interests, and the amount of the additional relief will be such that it will not be passed on to the consumer. If you are going to charge the consumer more for other goods by imposing safeguarding duties, then you are going to increase rather than reduce unemployment, because you will be reducing the purchasing power of the people without cheapening the articles with which they are bound to supply themselves.
I do not advocate the protectionist theory, but I represent the City of Sheffield, and I notice that hon. Members opposite, this very day, have been urging the Government to put their safeguarding machine into operation in the case of the iron and steel trade. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I am glad to hear that that view is welcome among hon. Members opposite, and it shows what they want. I do not believe that a protectionist duty if that kind can do much good to the iron and steel industry, but, according to hon. Members opposite, while other industries have been asking to be placed upon a better basis by Safeguarding Duties the iron and steel industry have not asked for, and therefore it is not going to get, any relief under this scheme. If you exclude the industries which have already had the bounty of the State by the application of the Safeguarding principle, and use the whole of the money you get from that source for the relief of depressed industries, then you will be doing a sound thing. Take iron and steel. I was discussing this matter last week with one or two leading steel people, and I said: He further said:
Perhaps they would rather not have it at all.
Of course, they will get a certain amount of relief, but not enough to allow them to alter the quotations in their contract. It might help them to meet their own charges on debentures, but as a real means of moving forward the prosperity in our great commercial trade the proposal would be quite useless.
Would the hon. Member tell the House how much would be saved if the safeguarded industries were excluded from the operation of this Bill?
I have not been able to ascertain the exact amount, but it would be a considerable sum, and it would be dealing with a matter of principle. It would produce an equity which we have not yet obtained from the promoters of this Bill. If you take the list of industries read out by the Parliamentary Secretary which he said would be affected by the Amendment, I am sure the amount would be considerable, and we should be able to get a much larger grant for the heavy industries which are suffering than will be possible under the present scheme. Unless we can get some change of this kind, you will, in fact, be raising new taxation of an indirect character which will be passed on to the consumer. You will restrict the producing power of the common community, and you will not be able to give sufficient to the many industries which are suffering. You will be unable to give any advantage to the consumers of the separate articles, and the producers will not be in any better position to secure contracts in the foreign market. The whole scheme can only result in little bits of relief being given here and there for the benefit of capitalists alone, and not for the benefit of the general community. It is quite certain that you could make the whole question a little better by cutting out those industries which have been the subject of a special bounty of the State and restrict the relief to those who have not up to the present time received such advantages.
I agree with the point of view which has been put forward by the hon. Member for Hillsborough (Mr. A. V. Alexander). I intervene to call attention to what fell from the Parliamentary Secretary, who was quite candid in saying that the effect of this Amendment would be to exclude breweries and distilleries from the effects of de-rating, and to say that that would be one of the greatest merits of this particular Amendment. On this point, I wish to prick the Parliamentary Secretary's Nonconformist conscience. In a reply given by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade to a question put by the hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. Kelly), we gathered that the relief to be given to the brewing and distilling interest would be something like £400,000. We also recall that the Chancellor of the Exchequer said that the relief that would be given through de-rating would be given at once to the most prosperous and the most suffering trades. Consequently, the brewing and distilling interest is, by the admission of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, himself, one of the prosperous trades.
Undoubtedly, it is a very large interest. If you take the amount of capital invested in brewery and distillery companies which are registered at Somerset House, you will find that in August last they amounted to over £260,000,000. As to the profits of these companies, we have the authority of the Financial Secretary to the Treasury for saying that the estimated profits of brewing concerns for 1913–14 were £9,970,000 and for 1926–27 they were £24,500,000. I find that during the last seven years the dividend declared by Arthur Guinness and Company has ranged from 23 per cent. to 32 per cent. During the same period the dividend declared by Messrs. Watney, Combe Reid and Company ranged from 17 per cent. to 32 per cent. In the case of Meux's Brewery the dividend amounted to 70 per cent. In the case of the distilleries, I find that the dividend paid by Buchanan-Dewars in 1927 was 28 per cent., and in the case of the High-land Distilleries 50 per cent. If I take the list of fortunes which have been left during the 18 months, I find that Lord Iveagh's estate amount to £11,000,000; Edwin Pope, the director of the Dorchester Brewery, £1,491,000; James Deuchar, of James Deuchar Limited, £1,207,000. I have also a list of 17 men who within the last 18 months left fortunes ranging from £100,000 to £1,000,000. Sir Wilfrid Lawson once said that peerages were bestowed on men Does the hon. Gentleman accept that? If he does, why does he foster that form of production which diminishes the real wealth of the nation, according to the great Chancellor of the Exchequer to whom I have referred. I know the answer of the present Chancellor of the Exchequer; he has already given it. He says that, after all, you are not endowing the brewers and distillers, but that the relief will pass to the consumers. He has said that already. I wonder what the brewers and distillers have to say on that matter. I will quote from the "Brewer's Journal" of the 15th June last:
There is one other aspect to which I desire to call attention. We are dealing with rates. The sum paid in rates by the brewing and distilling interests is £551,000, according to the return that was given. That amounts to something like £3 per £1,000 of the total rates paid, and I would recall to the attention of the House the fact that these are poor rates and police rates for which these interests are in part responsible. That £3 per £1,000 is going to be brought down to 15s. if they are included in this de-rating. That is my statement in regard to this interest. I have not touched on the moral aspect, because, for one reason, anything I might say would not have great weight; it would be what would be expected from one of my profession. One of my hon. Friends is good enough to say that it would have weight, but at any rate I wish to cite one who, perhaps, will have more weight. I wish to give one single quotation from a book that I have here, written by a brewer, Charles Buxton, in 1864, and entitled, "How to Stop Drunkenness." I will quote his words, and they are words that I myself would have scrupled to use. He, speaking as a brewer from the inside, said, among many other things:
We can see on what side the Government are ranging themselves in this matter. I appreciate that the Parliamentary Secretary has regard for the moral forces of this country, but in this Bill, and in the Finance Bill, in the raising of money an in the disbursing of it, the Government are obliged to set at defiance the great moral forces of the country. I am confident that they will soon realize that, whatever the habits of the people may be—and they are sometimes habits that we deplore—their moral instincts are sound, and that, before the Government are able to bestow on the liquor business, they will be swept by the moral indignation of the people from the office and the power that they have abused and degraded.
Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
The House divided: Ayes, 117; Noes, 211.
Division No. 287.] AYES. [8.23 p.m. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Riley, Ben Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Hardie, George D. Robinson. W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland) Ammon, Charles George Harris, Percy A. Salter, Dr. Alfred Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Scrymgeour, E. Baker, Walter Henderson. Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) Scurr, John Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Hirst, G. H. Shinwell, E. Barnes, A. Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Barr, J. Hore-Bellsha, Leslie Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) Batey, Joseph Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Sitch, Charles H. Bondfield, Margaret Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Slesser, Sir Henry H. Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. John, William (Rhondda, West) Smith, H. B. Lees-(Keighley) Briant, Frank Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Broad, F. A. Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Snell, Harry Bromley, J. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip Brawn, Ernest (Leith) Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Charleton, H. C. Kelly, W. T. Strauss. E. A. Cluse, W. S. Kennedy, T. Sutton, J. E. Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) Compton, Joseph Lawrence, Susan Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Connolly, M. Lee, F. Thurtie, Ernest Cove. W. G. Lowth, T. Tomlinson, R. P. Cowan. D. M. (Scottish Universities) Lunn, William Townend, A. E. Crawfurd, H. E. Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) Viant, S. P. Dalton, Hugh Mackinder, W. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) MacLaren, Andrew Wellock, Wilfred Dennison, R. Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Westwood, J. Dunnico, H. Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. England, Colonel A. Montague, Frederick Whiteley, W. Fenby, T. D. Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Wiggins, William Martin Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. Murnin, H. Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) Gillett, George M. Naylor, T. E. Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly) Gosling, Harry Oliver, George Harold Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Palin, John Henry Wilson. R. J. (Jarrow) Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Coine) Paling, W. Windsor, Walter Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Wright, W. Griffith, F. Kingsley Ponsonby, Arthur Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypoel) Potts, John S. Groves, T. Purcell, A. A. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Grundy, T. W. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Mr. Hayes and Mr. B. Smith.
NOES. Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Penny, Frederick George Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Galbraith, J. F. W. Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Albery, Irving James Gates, Percy Perkins, Colonel E. K. Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Goff, Sir Park Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Gower, Sir Robert Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Grace, John Phillipson, Mabel Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Preston, William Banks, Sir Reginald Mitchell Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Price, Major C. W. M. Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter Raine, Sir Walter Barnett, Major Sir Richard Greene, W. P. Crawford Ramsden, E. Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Grotrian, H. Brent Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington) Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Gunston, Captain D. W. Reid, D. D. (County Down) Bennett, A. J. Hacking, Douglas H. Romer, J. R. Berry, Sir George Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. Bethel, A. Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Bevan, S. J. Harland, A. Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Birchall, Major J. Dearman Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) Ropner, Major L. Blundell, F. N. Haslam, Henry C. Ruggies-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. Boothby, R. J. G. Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. Rye, F. G. Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. Salmon, Major I. Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart Henn, Sir Sydney H. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Brass, Captain W. Hills, Major John Waller Sandeman, N. Stewart Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Sanders, Sir Robert A. Brocklebank, C. E. R. Holt, Captain H. P. Sanderson, Sir Frank Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) Savery, S. S. Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) Hopkins, J. W. W. Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W. R., Sowerby) Buckingham, Sir H. Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Burman, J. B. Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Shepperson, E. W. Burton, Colonel H. W. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney. N.) Skelton, A. N. Butler, Sir Geoffrey Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Hume, Sir G. H. Smith-Carington, Neville W. Campbell, E. T. Hurd, Percy A. Smithers, Waldron Carver, Major W. H Illiffe, Sir Edward M. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Cassels, J. D. Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Cautley, Sir Henry S. James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon Cuthbert Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.) Jephcott, A. R Stanley, Lord (Fylde) Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) Steel, Major Samuel Strang Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Kindersley, Major Guy M. Storry-Deans, R. Chapman, Sir S. King, Commodore Henry Douglas Streatfeild, Captain S. R. Christie J. A. Knox, Sir Alfred Styles, Captain H. Walter Churchman, Sir Arthur C. Lamb, J. Q. Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Cobb, Sir Cyril Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Templeton, W. P. Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Thom, Lt.-Col J. G. (Dumbarton) Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Little, Dr. E. Graham Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Courtauld, Major J. S. Long, Major Eric Thomson, Rt. Hon, Sir W. Mitchell- Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. Looker, Herbert William Titchfield, Major the Marquess of Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Lynn, Sir R. J. Waddington, R. Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Wallace, Captain D. E. Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. Cunlifle, Sir Herbert MacDonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) Watson, Sir F (Pudsey and Otley) Curzon, Captain Viscount MacIntyre, Ian Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) McLean, Major A. Watts, Sir Thomas Davies, Dr. Vernon Macquisten, F. A. Wells, S. R. Dawson, Sir Philip MacRobert, Alexander M. White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple- Dean, Arthur Wellesley Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) Dixey, A. C. Malone, Major P. B. Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) Drewe, C. Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Edmondson, Major A. J. Margesson, Captain D. Withers, John James Elliot, Major Walter E. Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley Ellis, R. G. Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Woodcock, Colonel H. C. Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) Moore, Sir Newton J. Wragg, Herbert Everard, W. Lindsay Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. Fairfax, Captain J. G. Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph Fermoy, Lord Neville, Sir Reginald J. TELLERS FOR THE NOES— Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Foster, Sir Harry S. Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Major Sir William Cope and Sir Victor Warrender. Fraser, Captain Ian O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)
May I ask your Ruling, Sir? I understand that it is not your intention to call separately the following two Amendments—in page 3, line 19, to leave out paragraph ( c ), and in line 20 to leave out paragraph ( d )—but that you will be pleased if the House consents to allow the discussion on this Amendment of mine—in page 3, line 18, to leave out paragraph ( b )—to be a little wider than the actual terms of the Amendment, so as to enable the main idea in the following two Amendments to be discussed at the same time.
I want to meet the convenience of hon. Members as far as possible. I suggest that we should take a course somewhat similar to what was done in Committee, and that in the discussion on the Amendment now to be moved it should be open also to refer to the following Amendments relating to the differently lettered paragraphs, on the understanding that those Amendments will not be called unless it is desired specially to divide on one of them without discussion.
I understand that does not apply to the Amendment to leave out paragraph ( e ), on which perhaps you will allow a separate discussion.
That is quite right. It covers paragraphs ( b ), ( c ) and ( d ).
I beg to move, in page 3, line 18, to leave out paragraph ( b ).
The effect of the Amendment would be to include retail shops in the de-rating scheme of the Government. I realise that this and the two following Amendments go to the root of the Bill. They propose to wipe out the arbitrary line between those hereditaments that are wholly or mainly used for productive purposes and those that are wholly or mainly used for distributive purposes. When these Amendments were discussed in Committee, the Minister and his Parliamentary Secretary told us that they were inconsistent with the main outline of the Bill. I think the words were that they would dissipate the relief which the Bill proposed to give, and, therefore, make it nugatory. That really is not good enough if we can show, as I believe we can, three things which destroy the value of the argument—if we are able to show that this discrimination which the text of the Bill provides is unjust, is unworkable, and is politically undesirable and inexpedient.
Shopkeepers are among the most highly-rated persons in the country, because, unlike other occupiers of hereditaments, they are forced to occupy highly-rented premises. The manufacturer is able to go into some remote part of the town where he can get comparatively inexpen- sive frontages. The business man also is not bound to live in the most expensive part of the city. But the big shopkeeper must come into that part of any city which has the most expensive frontage, and, therefore, pays the highest rates of all. Even the small shopkeeper is forced out of the cheapest part of the city into the main streets, where his assessment is high and his rates are correspondingly high.
Then a, great many of these shopkeepers, those who own their shops, were forced to buy at the boom time. Those who are not owners but occupiers have in many cases entered upon long leases, again at the boom time when prices were exceptionally high, and their rents are at a very big figure. The rates that these shopkepers pay do not represent either of two things. They neither are payment for services rendered. If they were, it is only reasonable, perhaps, that they should pay the cost of the police and the rates, but they really have nothing to do with the poor or with education or with a great many other things. Nor on the other hand are these rates fixed in any sense in accordance with their ability to pay. It would, of course, be out of order on this Amendment for me to go into the question of alternative methods of rating which might be more equitable, such as rating in accordance with the wealth or the ability to pay of the particular occupier concerned. But it is enough for my point that these rates which the shopkeepers have to pay are not either proportionate to the services which they receive or with their ability to pay the rates.
We come to the case of the shop which is a shop in front and a factory or workshop behind. We have already had put before us certain very disquieting facts with regard to the discrimination which this Bill makes between a shopkeeper with a workshop behind which forms one hereditament and a similar case which forms two hereditaments. I am not an expert in rating law but I have a shrewd suspicion that it is rather a matter of a wall, whether there is a door in the wall, and other detailed considerations of that kind. We are going to have two shops next door to one another, both with workshops behind, both with the workshops having an outer door upon another street. In one case the shop, being rated with its workshop as one hereditament, and the other, owing to a detailed matter of construction—a shop, and a, workroom behind—being rated as two hereditaments and therefore obtaining the relief under this Bill. Surely it is absurd to pretend that there is any distinction in merit between the shopkeeper with a closed wall dividing his shop from his workshop, and the shopkeeper with a wall, which is not closed, dividing his shop from his workshop. Going further, I would say that it is absurd to pretend that there is any distinction in merit between the production and the salesmanship in an industry. There is no ground why one of these persons should be the recipient of special favours, as he is under this Clause, and that another should be called upon to pay for his more fortunate neighbour, as will be the case if this Bill goes through in its present form.
What I have said with regard to shops applies, of course. also to the exclusions referred to in paragraph ( c ), distributive wholesale business, and paragraph ( d ), purposes of storage. Therefore, on the ground of justice, I do not think that this distinction is sound. It is repugnant to the English mind, as I believe the Minister will find when this Bill gets more fully to be understood. But there are a great many things which succeed in finding their way on to the Statute Book in spite of their being flagrantly unjust. There is, however, another snag which the Minister has to get over in forcing this Bill through. This particular discrimination, in my view, is not merely unjust, but it will not work, or, as the French would say in their descriptive way, " Il ne marchera pas "—it will not march. You cannot make and maintain these subtle distinctions. What will happen, for instance, where a man is defrauded of his de-rating, in spite of the fact of having a workshop just because the structure of his premises does not exactly meet the case? He will alter the structure of his premises in order to come within your de-rating proposals. He will alter them to his own disadvantage, and, very likely, to the disadvantage of the city where he lives. But in order to get the benefit of the de-rating proposals he will make the necessary structural alterations. In the end, when walls have been built and other inconveniences have been erected in order to secure the benefit of this Bill, people will begin to find out what a very unworkable Measure it is, and then, at last, it will be altered. The harm will have been done, just as when people blocked up their windows in order to defeat the absurd Window Tax. They first of all imposed the tax and then the law had to be altered. In the meantime, a large number of houses which would have been clean, light houses, had been blocked up in order to defeat that absurd and restrictive piece of legislation. It will be just the same with this Bill. In the end, this discrimination will not work and it must, in my opinion, result in structural alterations and in the adoption of all sorts of other steps to circumvent the absurd restrictions, and then the Measure will be altered. In the meantime, the public and the individuals will have been very much inconvenienced.
Finally, in addition to being unjust and unworkable, I believe that this Bill in its present form—this discrimination—will prove to be politically inexpedient. Possibly the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health's subtle mind will at once argue that that is a proof of the sincerity of the Government. He will acclaim, with his hand upon his heart, that if it be really true that they are doing something which is so politically inexpedient, then indeed their altruism is beyond question. Against their own interests, for the good of the country, and for the recovery of trade, they have placed their political life in jeopardy. I am afraid that though I am a fairly charitable person I am not quite as simple minded as that. I think that the real explanation is a much easier one and is much more in accordance with what I know to be the character of Members on the Front Bench on the opposite side. The real explanation, of course, is that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is a person whose brilliant scintillations we all admire, but whose political judgment is very far from sound. He has conceived this discrimination in his mind and he has succeeded in winning the first battle by getting the Cabinet to support him. He has even, secured the assistance of a wan whose judgment is much better, the Minister of Health, and the assistance of the Parliamentary Secretary, and, no doubt, he will win the next battle, which is to succeed in putting this proposal through this House., But there is a higher tribunal than the Cabinet or this House, and the unwise, unfair and unworkable discrimination which appears in this Clause will have to go, in the end, before that higher tribunal, and we on these benches shall await with confident anticipation the verdict of that Court.
I beg to second the Amendment.
I am entirely in accord with my hon. Friend when he says that the Amendment goes down to the very roots of the opposition to this Bill. We are often told by hon. Members opposite and by their supporters in the country that the present Government are at all times to be found the staunch supporters of the traders of the country, both great and small, but when we examine the Bill we find that it contains one of the most unjust discriminations as between the great business house and the distributive house that it is possible for us to conceive. The Government propose to obtain a considerable sum of money from one particular source, namely, the Petrol Duty. I wonder whether the Government have realised that the very people whom we are seeking to protect in our Amendment have to use petrol to a very considerable extent and will be making a very considerable contribution to the fund which will be the basis of the Government scheme. This has particular reference to my part of the country, because the configuration of the land and the contour of the country is such that the petrol consumption there is heavier than in areas where the geographical situation is not so difficult. The incidence of the Petrol Duty will, therefore, be heavier in such places than in places around London and other centres.
The right hon. Gentleman and his friends say to the country: "We are going to help industry," and they go to areas like my own and offer certain remissions of local taxation to mineowners and others. Far be it from me to suggest that those people do not need assistance for, heaven knows, they require it badly enough; but, if you take a district such as my own, which is the heaviest rated place in the whole country, where the rates are 36s. 2d. in the £—a rate which would seem appalling even to hon. Mem- bers who represent Middlesbrough and other areas—that rate is just as onerous to the draper in the area as to the mine-owner; it is just as difficult for the grocer to bear that rate as for the big firm; it is just as heavy to bear for the person who has a small business as it is for a firm which will have a very substantial bite of this very wonderful cherry which the Government are offering. Many of the businesses which are now fairly prosperous and which will get benefit from this Bill would not be prosperous were it not for the energy and the efforts of the distributor in the small shops. It is those people who make the success of the big firms possible. What would Courtaulds be, were it not for the energy of the local draper? What would the great tobacco firms be, were it not for the energy and initiative of the small tobacconist? The big firms who are making such substantial profits will get their share of the benefit under this Bill, but the small distributive firm in the local area will get not one penny piece.
It seems to me that our case is obviously proven, that this proposal is most unjust, excluding as it does the small distributive trader from the incidence of the benefit, such as it is. This morning I was looking through the Report of the Balfour Committee on Industry and Commerce, and in a return submitted to that Committee by the Ministry of Labour, I think, it was pointed out that of the total local rates collected in this country 65.55 per cent. are paid on small shops and houses. Clearly, if that be so, those are the people who are bearing the heavy burden of local rates up and down the country and they are the very people who are specifically excluded from the benefit of this proposal. The whole proposal of the Government is hoelessly lop-sided. It is, as the hon. Member for Leicester West (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence) said, obviously unjust; I am inclined to think that, in a larger measure, it is unworkable and I am sure that on grounds of equity it is hopelessly indefensible.
The two hon. Members have, I think, put the case in favour of their Amendment as well as it. could possibly be put. They have, as they always do, shown considerable ability and care in the arguments which they have addressed to the House, and it is my duty once again to put forward the reasons which have actuated the Government in the course that they have taken on this very important matter, which certainly raises a very important issue in connection with the Bill. The primary matter which is the subject of the Amendment is the deletion of the phrase
My first reply to the Amendment is that under this scheme, as under every other scheme of this kind, there is only a certain sum of money available for the purposes of relief. That would be so in connection with any scheme which was brought forward by any political party. I noticed on Saturday that the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) said that his scheme would find £50,000,000 for relief. I do not know whether it was a figment of imagination.
The Yellow Book says £55,000,000.
I have no doubt that hon. Members opposite can easily outbid the right hon. Gentleman. If he wants to play that game and adopt methods of that sort I am sure hon. Members opposite will easily out-distance him. Therefore, I think we had better leave alone the exact sum to the time when the right hon. Gentleman has to find the money. The point in this Measure is that there is only a certain fixed sum of money available for the purposes of relief. Such hon. Members as are present will remember the Amendment which has just been disposed of by the House. The hon. Member for Hillsborough (Mr. A. V. Alexander), speaking on that Amend- ment in criticism of the Government's proposals, said that he doubted whether the sum available would be sufficient to make any substantial change in the fortunes of the people whom we propose to benefit by the scheme. That is a justifiable criticism of the Bill, and it might well be that if the sum available was larger the effect of the scheme would be much more considerable. His criticism was that he doubted whether the sum available for production and industry would be at all sufficient.
Now we have a change in the wheel of criticism, and it does not surprise me to find that, while on one Amendment they said that the sum was not sufficient to help productive industries, hon. Members opposite now come forward, five minutes afterwards, with an Amendment which would widely disperse the benefits under the Bill, and make available as claimants for the relief the whole of the retail shopkeepers of the country, the whole of the distributing and wholesale business of the country and, later on, no doubt, we shall have a proposal to make the relief available for the purposes of the public supply undertakings of the country. This suggestion is only capped by the proposal of the Liberal party in putting forward 15 or 16 various hereditaments, ranging from cemeteries to hospitals, which were also to have the benefit of this sum of money. And so hon. Members could go on in this way and thus destroy the whole effect of the scheme, the whole principle of it. The result would be this. Take the retail shopkeepers of the country. If you really made all these classes of people available as claimants and participators in the relief, then, from the point of view of rate relief, the amount would be very small indeed. That is one of the great objections to the proposals in the Yellow Book. Anyone who has studied the problem will realise that directly you attempt to make this relief available to all and sundry it really would have no practical effect at all.
I contend that the method which the Government have adopted is the best way of helping the retail shopkeepers of the country. The hon. Member who has just spoken referred to the position of an area which has certainly gone through very grave and difficult times, and he pointed to the position of the retail shopkeeper in that area. What is the best way of helping the retail shopkeepers in an area like that? Is it to make him one of millions amongst whom you are to divide the sum available for relief, or is it not much better, as in the Government scheme, to adopt proposals which will in the first place make, as I believe, the wheels of industry go round again? Then, secondly, there are the Government proposals for general relief afforded by the changes indicated in the White Paper, and, in the third place, there is the relief which is afforded to the basic industries of the country. These three aids in their cumulative effect will do far more to benefit the retail shopkeeper in a distressed area than any scheme which proposes to divide up the amount available for relief amongst many millions of people.
With regard to the relief to basic industries, I hope the Parliamentary Secretary does not forget this fact, that it has been established in South Wales that the average loss per ton of coal is 1s. 6d., while the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself does not estimate that the whole of this relief will be more than 6½d. per ton.
9.0 p.m.
I say that it is the accumulative effect of all these proposals and, therefore, anybody who comes to a quiet decision on the matter will give their vote not to a proposal which is going to divide a fixed sum of money amongst many millions of people but to one which has a good prospect of bringing relief to an area such as he has indicated. At any rate, there is a fair prospect of it, and this is the first time a scheme of this character has been put forward. Hon. Members opposite ought to be the very last to criticise the Government scheme. Their hands are not clean in this matter. They put forward no constructive proposals in relation to necessitous areas when they were in office. Indeed, I remember the hon. Lady the Under-Secretary to the Ministry of Labour in the Labour Government standing at this Box and saying when severely pressed for an answer by the late hon. Member for Middlesbrough, Mr. Trevelyan Thomson, that she had no scheme for settling the necessitous areas, or for the problem of unemployment. Therefore, this scheme should be received at any rate with sympathy by hon. Members opposite, who are themselves bankrupt of any ideas on the subject. I commend it to the more favourable consideration and sympathy of hon. Members opposite, who I know are desirous to see trade increase and industry get along. At any rate, this proposal should be examined. They could not produce a plan at all. There is now a practical proposal before the country, and they are trying to destroy it by saying that the amount available should be divided amongst these many millions. The best way of benefiting the retail shopkeeper is to get trade and industry going again, for directly they increase the retail shopkeeper is the first to benefit. I invite the House to reject the Amendment.
The Parliamentary Secretary has given us one of his usual confidential speeches. I might call it a variation on one string. We have had this variation at least 9 or 10 times during this Debate. I only rise to point out that the Liberal party do not claim the credit for putting down 15 Amendments to the Bill on the Commitee stage. The origin of those 15 Amendments, including cemeteries, is the White Paper issued by the hon. Member's own Government in connection with the Rating Bill for Scotland, passed in 1926, which I have unearthed. The 15 categories, including sewers and cemeteries, which afforded the hon. Member some amusement were produced in that White Paper in a Schedule giving the approximate amount raised in the way of rates on these particular properties. The Parliamentary Secretary seemed to think that my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) was mentioning a sum of £55,000,000 for the first time. That is not so. The Parliamentary Secretary made one or two references to the Yellow Book, but I fear that his studies at home of that book have not been as exhaustive as his studies of "Answers" and "Titbits," from which apparently he generally draws most of the illustrations that he gives to the House. This is not the right way, and the Government when they come to deal with the Amendments are not the victims of the Amendments but of their own scheme. Their scheme is based on an utter lack of principle by making discriminations between one class of property and another, between one industry and another, between one area and another and between one ratepayer and another.
Therefore, the right hon. Gentleman must not complain if on Clause after Clause hon. Members on this side accept the challenge of the Minister and seek to include rateable properties used by shopkeepers and by those who run distributive businesses and are paying rates on properties which are used for purposes of storage. If the Parliamentary Secretary wants to know where the £55,000,000 mentioned by my right hon. Friend comes from, I will tell him. The scheme which we would prefer is this. We would say, do not discriminate between one area and another as an area, or between one industry and another, or between one ratepayer and another, but solve this rating problem at the root by separating the services which are local in character from those which are national in character. That is an entirely different policy and would not be open to objection when it is put into operation, as it will be, whether in two, five or ten years.
I have great pleasure in supporting the Amendment because I believe that the way to tackle this problem is to distinguish between the rates which are purely service rates paid by persons in a locality for purely local services, and social rates which are charges on a locality for national policy which has no relation to the locality but rather are a burden on the locality according to the needs of the locality, and on top of that—to meet these new charges which have risen to such high level in the years since the development of the motor engine—the transport rates. If to the policy of disentangling these services you added the segregation of the able-bodied poor, together with a scheme for making productive work of national development, you would spend your money much more fruitfully, and instead of pretending to make the wheels of industry go round, you would provide a motive power for sending them round.
I certainly should not support this Amendment if it followed in principle the line set out by the Parliamentary Secretary. Had relief been confined to the basic industries, I for one would be very much opposed to extending the relief to shopkeepers in particular. But I represent a mining constituency. Not only are the mines and miners badly affected, but the shopkeepers of the area are badly affected also. I want the Parliamentary Secretary to answer this question: Is it not more important and more equitable, if relief is to be given to any section of the community, that it should be given to the shopkeepers in the areas which have been badly affected? Those shopkeepers are finding it difficult to pay their rates and are making requests to the overseers for an extension of the time during which they can pay. Would it not be more equitable to give rates relief in such cases than to give it to prosperous industries like tobacco, the brewers, the silk manufacturers and others who are paying dividends ranging from 10 to 20 per cent.?
If the Parliamentary Secretary's speech had been logical, he would never have suggested that if this money were spread over a greater number, there was less for the basic industries. That is exactly the point we have been trying to emphasise. We do not want this relief to be given to trades that are already prosperous. Had it been confined to the depressed industries, such as coal, iron and steel and shipbuilding, many of the Amendments on the Paper would never have been moved; but when the Government propose to hand over £30,000,000 to prosperous and unprosperous industries alike, those of us who represent badly affected areas must come forward with Amendments such as this.
I do not know of anything more gloomy than to put forward reasons and arguments to an empty House, and to be met with a speech like that of the Parliamentary Secretary. I want to strike one happier note before we finish this discussion. I do not know if hon. Members have noticed how the smaller trading associations are gradually getting into line against this Bill. They are moving slowly, because they are not so well equipped as the great commercial associations, but they are expressing themselves against the Bill. For example, there are the bakers. We find that 25,000 to 30,000 bakers are aggrieved by this proposal. They represent at the very least, 50,000 to 60,000 votes—more, supposing as perhaps we may, that each baker is blessed with a grown-up daughter. Then there is the Merchant Tailors Association. Many thousands of merchant tailors who run small workshops feel that they are placed at a disadvantage by this proposal, faced as they are with the crushing competition of the big clothing factories and they are protesting. There are many thousands of votes involved there and the number is doubled if we count in their wives. Then we come to the meat trade. The Meat Traders' Association has a total membership of between 35,000 and 40,000. A large proportion of its members carry on businesses in the manufacture of sausages and potted meats, such as are also produced in big factories, and 35,000 to 40,000 meat traders will also be aggrieved, representing perhaps 70,000 or 80,000 votes. Then we have the Newsagents Association and the National Association of Chambers of Trade, representing the mass of shopkeepers in England and Wales, who have sent a deputation to the Minister to put their grievances before him. When I think of the electoral prospect which is opened out to us by this widespread discontent among the shopkeeping class, then I feel indeed, that every cloud has a silver lining and that there are reasons why we, at any rate, ought not to be altogether unhappy.
Why oppose the Bill?
Because we have some conscience. Nobody can say that we have not fought this Bill but, having fought, and being in the act of losing, it is a comfort to remember these thousands of mute supporters of ours all over the country who are daily being converted from Conservatism by the policy of a Conservative Minister. I would not favour the Bill for the sake of a thousand votes, but to do one's duty and to get paid for it makes one's task very pleasant. I wonder that the Parliamentary Secretary dared to stand at that Box and talk about "frittering away" the money which is at the Government's disposal. It is being frittered away in subsidies to people who do not want it and to prosperous districts. This sum of £30,000,000 or so is being dissipated, and it will not do any good to industry or to the finances of the country. It will not even do any particular good to the prosperous trades which are being sub- sidised. Where it might have done good, where it might have been concentrated to the advantage of all, is where we have always urged that it should have been concentrated, namely, upon the necessitous areas and the necessitous districts. We could have given them relief at once. Under the present proposals they have to wait for 18 months and, in the meantime, from the very worst districts—the districts of which the Parliamentary Secretary spoke with pity—he is still getting his pound of flesh in interest and sinking fund on loans.
We have always said that you should concentrate the relief on the places that need it. This business of scattering subsidies loose and wide is the most foolish manner of dealing with the problem. If you accept the Bill, and say that you are going to give relief to manufacturers, then for goodness' sake give equal treatment to everybody engaged in business—in distribution, commerce or production—because the relief will have the same effect if it is spread over 50, as it would have if concentrated on one. We have here a simple and perfectly straightforward plan. The Parliamentary Secretary taunted my hon. Friends with not having produced a formula. I think he will be very sorry that he ever showed the country and the House that other formula—that formula according to which you multiply the percentage of the density of population per mile of public roads, by the number of children per 1,000 who were under five years of age in 1925, and multiply the rateable value by the percentage of unemployed and so forth. What in the name of goodness does that formula mean in the world of facts? What is the fact at which you arrive when you have multiplied the number of children in a district who were between three years and eight years of age in 1925, by the density of population per mile of road? That is a formula about which we shall hear more.
I think the hon. Member must keep her remarks on that subject until the proper time comes for discussing it.
The Parliamentary Secretary led me astray. I will not enlarge on that point, but to you, Sir, as an excuse, I would point out that the Parliamentary Secretary taunted us on this side with not having evolved a formula, and claimed that his party had a very nice one. However, I will not discuss his formula further, and I think
I have said enough in reply to his remarks.
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
The House divided: Ayes, 215; Noes, 121.
Division No. 288.] AYES. [9.24 p.m. Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Fairfax, Captain J. G. Meyer, Sir Frank Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Falle, Sir Bertram G. Milne, J. S. Wardlaw- Albery, Irving James Fermoy, Lord Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Foster, Sir Harry S. Moore, Sir Newton J. Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Fraser, Captain Ian Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Balfour, George (Hampsteao Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph Banks, Sir Reginald Mitchell Galbraith, J. F. W. Neville, Sir Reginald J. Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Gates, Percy Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Barnett major Sir Richard Goff, Sir Park Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Gower, Sir Robert O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Grace, John Penny, Frederick George Bennett, A. J. Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Berry, Sir George Grant, Sir J. A. Perkins, Colonel E. K. Bethel, A. Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Bevan, S. J. Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) Birchall, Major J. Dearman Greene, W. P. Crawford Philipson, Mabel Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) Grotrian, H. Brent Preston, William Blundell, F. N. Guinness, Rt. Hon. Waiter E. Price, Major C. W. M. Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Gunston, Captain D. W. Raine, Sir Walter Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Ramsden, E. Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) Reid, D. D. (County Down) Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B. Hamilton, Sir George Remer, J. R. Brass, Captain W. Harland, A. Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Harvey. G. (Lambeth, Kennington) Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs, Stretford) Brocklebank, C. E. R. Haslam, Henry C. Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. Ropner, Major L. Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) Henn, Sir Sydney H. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Hennessey, Major Sir G. R. J. Rye, F. G. Buckingham, Sir H. Hills, Major John Waller Salmon, Major I. Burman, J. B. Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Burton, Colonel H. W. Holt, Captain H. P. Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Butler, Sir Geoffrey Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) Sandeman, N. Stewart Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Sanders, Sir Robert A. Campbell, E. T. Hopkins, J. W. W. Sanderson, Sir Frank Cassels, J. D. Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) Savery, S. S. Cautley, Sir Henry S. Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. C.) Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W. R., Sowerby) Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n) Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Hume, Sir G. H. Shepperson, E. W. Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Hurd, Percy A. Skelton, A. N. Chapman, Sir S. Iliffe, Sir Edward M. Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Christie, J. A. Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Smith-Carington, Neville W. Churchman, Sir Arthur C. James. Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Smithers, Waldron Cobb, Sir Cyril Jephcott, A. R. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Kennedy, A. R. (Preston). Spender-Clay, Colonel H Colfax, Major Wm. Phillips Kindersley, Major Guy M. Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. Cope, Major Sir William King, Commodore Henry Douglas Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) Courtauld, Major J. S. Knox, Sir Alfred Steel, Major Samuel Strang Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. Lamb, J. Q. Storry-Deans, R. Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Styles, Captain H. W. Croft, Brigadler-General Sir H. Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Long, Major Eric Sugdem Sir Wilfrid Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Looker, Herbert William Templeton, W. P. Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro) Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) Cunliffe, Sir Herbert Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Lynn, Sir R. J. Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- Davies, Dr. Vernon MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Tinne, J. A. Dawson, Sir Philip Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Titchfield, Majar the Marquess of Dean, Arthur Wellesley Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. Dixey, A. C. MacIntyre, Ian Waddington, R. Drewe, C. McLean, Major A. Wallace, Captain D. E. Edmondson, Major A. J. Macquisten, F. A. Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) Elliot, Major Walter E. Mac Robert, Alexander M. Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. Ellis, R. G. Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley) England, Colonel A. Malone, Major P. B. Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Margesson, Capt. D Wells, S. R. Everard, W. Lindsay Marriott, Sir J. A. R. White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple- Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) Woodcock, Colonel H. C. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Wragg, Herbert Captain Viscount Curzon and Sir Victor Warrender. Withers, John James Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
NOES. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Purcell, A. A. Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Hardle, George D. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Harris, Percy A. Riley, Ben Ammon, Charles George Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W. Bromwich) Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Hayes, John Henry Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland) Baker, Walter Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) Salter, Dr. Alfred Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Scrymgeour, E. Barr, J. Hirst, G. H. Scurr, John Batey, Joseph Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Shinwell, E. Bondfield, Margaret Hollins, A. Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Hore-Belisha, Leslie Sitch, Charles H. Briant, Frank Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Siesser, Sir Henry H. Broad, F. A. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Bromley, J. John, William (Rhondda, West) Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley) Brown, Ernest (Leith) Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Charleton, H. C. Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Snell, Harry Cluse, W. S. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip Clynes, Rt. Hon. John. R. Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Compton, Joseph Kelly, W. T. Strauss, E. A. Connolly, M. Kennedy, T. Sutton, J. E. Cove, W. G. Lansbury, George Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Lawrence, Susan Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Crawfurd, H. E. Lee, F. Thurtle, Ernest Dalton, Hugh Lindley, F. W. Tomlinson, R. P. Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Lowth, T. Townend, A. E. Day, Harry Lunn, William Viant, S. P. Dennison, R. Mackinder, W. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Dunnico, H. MacLaren, Andrew Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Fenby, T. D. Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Wellock, Wilfred Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Westwood, J. Gibbins, Joseph Montague, Frederick Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. Gillett, George M. Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Wiggins, William Martin Gosling, Harry Murnin, H. Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Naylor, T. E. Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly) Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Coine) Oliver, George Harold Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Palin, John Henry Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Griffith, F. Kingsley Paling, W. Windsor, Walter Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Wright, W. Groves, T. Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Grundy, T. W. Ponsonby, Arthur Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Potts, John S. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Mr. Whiteley and Mr. A. Barnes.
I beg to move, in page 3, line 21, to leave out paragraph ( e ).
We have had in the course of the Debates on this Bill two reasons given for its introduction. One was the stimulus to industry generally, and the other the assistance to necessitous areas. It is quite clear that the primary object of the Bill is to deal with industry generally. We have been told time and time again during the course of the Debates that the primary purpose was to relieve rates in the hope that thereby a substantial stimulus would be given to the productive industries of the country, and yet in the Bill certain services which are essential to industrial enterprises have been specifically excluded. These services include the electricity and gas supply companies, many of them public enterprises, and many others private companies under various Acts of Parliament.
Those who are familiar with our economic system know that the provision of power, whether in the form of electricity or gas, is one of the real key industries of the country. Yet these two services of gas and electricity, which supply the needs of almost all the industries of the country, are specifically and deliberately excluded from the operation of the Bill. It would be very difficult to find two services more important than those of electricity and gas supply. I would be prepared to argue that the relief of rates given to electricity and gas supply companies would be more fruitful, economically, than the distribution of an equivalent amount of relief spread over other industrial enterprises. As I understand it, the Minister's reason for not including these services is this: He has agreed—not because he wishes to assist railway enterprise as such, but because he wishes, through the railways, to assist other productive enterprises— to a remission of three-quarters of the rates paid by the railway companies. In doing so, he has come to an understanding with the railway companies that what they get in relief is to be passed over automatically to the railway users in the form of lower rates on certain kinds of heavy merchandise. When the Minister is asked why he has not applied that principle to the docks, he says that if the docks get three-quarters of their rates remitted, they will automatically use their new resources for the benefit of industry, but when we ask why it is that these public utility services have not been similarly assisted, the answer is that in their case there is no guarantee that the advantages so given would be passed over to the consumer.
I put it to the Minister that if he can go to the railway companies and say to them. "I will give you over £4,000,000 a year on condition that you use that sum to reduce the rates on certain classes of heavy merchandise," if he believes in the bona fides of the dock companies and that what relief they get will redound ultimately to the benefit of industry, why is it that in the case of these statutory enterprises—because all of them are statutory enterprises, whether publicly or privately owned—he is not able to give the same advantage to them? I would say that although it is true that the railway companies are now statutory bodies in a sense, and although there is a certain amount of State regulation of dock authorities, there are no bodies in this country over which a Department of State can exercise more effective control than over the statutory public undertakings for the supply of power; and if it be that the right hon. Gentleman wishes to give assistance in the case of railways to industry through remission of rates, it is a fair question to put to him, Why is he not prepared to give assistance to industry by the remission of rates to power companies to reduce the prices for the supply of power? This Bill is full of illogicalities. I have never been able to understand the basis on which it was constructed, bet, given the right hon. Gentleman's own argument for this Bill, the reason which has led him to give relief not only to productive enterprises, but to docks and to railways, I think we are entitled to know why it is that he is not giving a similar form of assistance to these electricity supply corporations and gas companies.
But our difficulty on these benches goes further than that. The great electricity supply companies and gas undertakings in this country have to obtain their plant from electrical and other mechanical engineering firms, and if anybody cares to study the economic position of the great electricity engineering enterprises which supply the plant and equipment of the public electricity undertakings of this country, he will find that those bodies, almost without exception, have been paying extraordinarily high profits during the whole period of trade depression, and that most of them have, within the past seven or eight years, distributed up to 100 per cent. in bonus shares. All these companies are in a state of extraordinary prosperity. The Bush Electrical Company and other companies that I could name, in spite of the profits that they are making, and in spite of the fact that almost the whole of their trade is with certain electrical supply undertakings in this country, are being relieved of three-quarters of their rates, although they supply merely the raw material for the electrical supply undertakings; and the electrical supply undertakings themselves, whose business it is to supply power, light, and heat for the areas over which they operate, having contributed to the large profits of these electrical engineers, and having been the instruments whereby these firms have been able to make their large profits and distribute their bonus shares, are to get nothing.
It seems to me that it throws into confusion the whole of the basis of this Bill. It is not as though the electricity supply companies were making the Bann profits as the electrical engineering companies. Many of the former are staggering under heavy burdens, including the burden of rates, and I think it was on the Second Reading of the Bill that I quoted the cases of certain electricity supply companies. I think I quoted three, but I could have quoted 30, from various parts of the country, and I quoted in every case from the speeches of the chairmen at the annual meetings of those companies; and in all those cases the chairmen complained of the heavy burden of rates and of costs of production, and explained the need for a remission of the burdens from which they were suffering. It is perfectly true that if you were to-day to give the same amount of rate relief to the electricity supply companies as you are giving to the perfumery manufacturers, you would do a thousand times as much good to the industrial enterprises of this country.
How would you do a thousand times as much good?
On one occasion I quoted one firm of perfumery and high-class toilet manufacturers, Dubarry's, who had been for years making from 25 to 35 per cent. profit, and I say that to allow that firm to be excused one penny of its rates is a waste of public money, and that with all the luxury enterprises you will do nothing that is of substantial national advantage. You may reduce their rates, but you will not reduce their prices; you will merely enhance their profits. If you did reduce their prices, there is not much point, so far as I can see, in reducing the price of bath salts or perfumes or other toilet luxuries, while there would be a substantial advantage in the Minister of Health going to the public supply companies, with the power that he possesses, these companies being statutory undertakings, and saying to them, "I am prepared to give you a remission of three-quarters of your rates on the same principle as I am remitting the rates of the railway companies." This advantage would accrue to the benefit of the consumer.
The Minister's case is that he cannot do it, but if he cannot do it, he cannot do it in the case of the railway companies. He certainly cannot do it in the case of the railway companies, because beyond and behind the Minister in the case of the railway companies is the Railway Rates Tribunal. There is no such tribunal behind the public supply undertakings. If he were to say to them that three-quarters of their rates would be remitted on the understanding that the saving thus effected is used to the public advantage, I believe that he could achieve great progress. He would achieve an immediate, certainly a prospective reduction in the price of current, which would be of infinitely more value from the point of view of the stimulus to industry and trade, than would be given by this remission of rates to private enterprises, a large number of which are prosperous. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will see the wisdom of dealing with this particular situation. We were told this afternoon, when certain Amendments were moved below the Gangway, that there was some sinister political move in them. I am not concerned with private electricity companies, I hold no shares in them, and I have no political motive in moving this Amendment, except that, if the Government have money to give away to reduce costs of production, to stimulate trade and reduce prices, they could have found few better ways than that of diverting some of the money they have at their disposal to the public supply undertakings.
I am astonished that the Government should have excluded these undertakings from their Bill. This question has been raised before, but of all the weak reasons given during the Debates, the weakest were those given by the Minister when he defended himself against the proposal to include the public supply undertakings. I hope that on reflection he will feel that he can agree with us. I do not know how much is the sum involved. It may not be as large as the sum which is given to the railway companies or to agriculture, but I am quite sure that there is no service in the country which affects the whole of our industrial system more closely than the supply of power. Transport is important, but power also is important, and will become increasingly important, and anything that can be done to promote the use of other forms of power, and anything which can be done to stimulate the use of electricity, is a national service quite apart from the direct effect upon industrial enterprise. During the Second Reading of the Bill, in a very obscure statement, the Chancellor of the Exchequer explained how 4d. a gallon on petrol was going to help the great movement towards the treatment of coal. I am all in favour of the treatment of coal on scientific lines, but it would be equally true that a remission of taxation in the case of power undertakings, whether electricity or gas, would have precisely the same effect, and perhaps an effect which, in the long run, would be economically more advantageous than the mixed results which would accrue from a tax of 4d. a gallon on petrol. I move this Amendment because I feel that, of all the exclusions from the Bill, there is no exclusion more unfortunate and more against the national interests than the deliberate exclusion of public supply undertakings.
I beg to second the Amendment.
The speech to which we have just listened was a very interesting one, and I will pay the hon. Member the compliment of saying that it was a speech which was seriously argued from beginning to end, and therefore deserves a serious answer. The hon. Member, however, must make up his mind on which leg he is going to stand, because two parts of his argument were mutually inconsistent. He began, for instance, by drawing a contrast between the position of public supply undertakings, and the position of the companies which supply them with their electrical apparatus. He said that some of the companies which supply the apparatus are extremely prosperous, and that they pay high dividends, and, on the other hand, he said that the public supply companies are to get nothing. Under the proposal which he was urging upon us, they would still get nothing, because the whole basis of the proposal was that the relief which he desired to be given to the public supply undertaking was not to be retained by them but was to be entirely passed on to their customers. That is a proposal which deserves to be treated on its merits, but it is not consistent with the argument that these companies are poor when compared with other companies which supply them with the apparatus they use, because the only logical conclusion of that argument is that the relief ought to be given to the companies to keep for themselves.
The right hon. Gentleman has understood me perfectly, but this is part of the case I tried to make against him in regard to railways. In the case of the railways you pass over the whole of the relief to The users of the railways, and that in itself is an economic advantage to the railway companies. The case which I tried to make against the right hon. Gentleman on the Committee stage, and which hon. Members opposite did not see, was that the very fact that you reduce charges in the case of railway companies really does add to the volume of the trade of the railways, and although the electricity and gas supply companies would not get direct benefit immediately from the reduction of their rates, because they would hand it over, the very fact that the commodity they supplied was cheaper would ultimately enlarge their trade.
I quite appreciate the point which the hon. Member makes there, but I would remind him that public supply companies are statutory companies whose dividends are limited, and I doubt very much whether the relief, if they were given the same sort of relief that the railway companies get, would really result in any appreciable increase in the volume of business which they can do, which is strictly confined by the statutory conditions under which they work. I want to argue on the assumption that the relief is passed on, and I call the attention of the House in the first instance to the fact that, although the hon. Member spoke entirely about private companies or public companies, they are not the only bodies we have to consider. The hon. Gentleman forgot to mention municipal undertakings, which in so many cases have the supply of gas or electricity, or both, in their own hands. That, of course, would not make any distinction between the two. All public supply undertakings are covered by the words in the Bill, and we have therefore to contemplate that under the Amendment relief would be given to municipal, gas, electricity or water supply undertakings. If there were to be such a diversion of the limited amount of money which is at the disposal of the Exchequer, what would be the result 1 The owners of the municipal undertakings are the ratepayers in the areas concerned, and if you are going to relieve them of their rates and make up the deficiency out of the Exchequer, really all that you are doing is to hand over a little present to each ratepayer in the whole of that area.
Agreed.
The hon. Member agrees, and I am glad that I have carried him so far with me, but I think he will admit that that is not the proposal of the Government, and is not consistent with the general proposal of the Government, which is to concentrate the relief upon industry and not to fritter it away upon all classes of the community. Let us consider this a little further. The hon. Member spoke as if the whole of the business done by these supply undertakings were done with industry. Are all the customers of the electricity or gas undertakings using gas or electricity for power purposes? Not at all. We know that the business of these companies is partly productive, but it is also very largely distributive, and, more than that, their customers are private individuals scattered over the whole area of the locality, and to give this relief to these companies, even if they passed it on to their customers, would be quite off the line of the proposals which are contained in the Bill and would be spreading relief over this wide field instead of concentrating it upon the places where it can do most good. If you are going to spread that relief so thinly over the whole area, the amount of relief derived by a single individual customer of the concern is really not going to be worth talking about.
10.0 p.m.
The hon. Member selected electricity for his argument, I suppose for his own purposes, but it must be remembered that we are dealing not only with electricity but with all kinds of public supply undertakings, with water undertakings and gas undertakings as well as electricity. But I will take the case of electricity because, apparently, the hon. Member regards it as most favourable to his argument. He says that a reduction in the price of current would be of infinitely more value to trade than broadcasting relief to industry generally. I traverse that statement. I have had a good many years' experience in business as a manufacturer, and although I do not profess that my experience covers the whole field of industry, yet I think I do know enough to say that the cost of power is not, in the majority of cases, the most important or most vital factor in the cost of production. It is frequently so small that it can hardly be regarded as one of the most serious factors in the cost of production. Even if relief is given to these undertakings, we should not be giving users their power for nothing. What is the amount of relief which we are going to give? What would it mean when translated into pence per unit, or frac- tions of a penny per unit? It is only three-quarters of the rates which are paid by the rateable premises of the public supply undertaking, and can anyone who has any personal or even indirect knowledge of industry imagine that the reduction in the price of current which could be achieved through relief of that kind is going to make any serious difference to the cost of production in the industries which depend upon that source of power? Although I think the hon. Member has made the best of his case that could be made, I fear he has exaggerated the value of the concession for which he is asking us. My answer to him, summarised, is this: the relief that would be given if I assented to his Amendment would not be worth the while of the industry to accept, it is so small; on the other hand, what you would take in the aggregate from the total sum of money which is available from the Exchequer would be sufficient to make a serious inroad into the sum available for the general scheme, and to that extent you would diminish the effect of our proposals and would render them inefficient and unable to accomplish their purpose.
Would the right hon. Gentleman mind answering this question? I only put it to him as a question. The chairman of the Northampton Electricity Supply undertaking estimates that rates amount to something approaching 10 per cent. of the cost of the current. Would not a relief of 75 per cent. of the rates be a substantial relief to the cost of that current?
That would be 7½ per cent. of the cost of the current. I say: "No, I do not think it would."
I have had some experience on a town council and have dealt with electricity, gas and water undertakings, and I would like to give what we call "the argument of the man in the street" to show how the proposal of my hon. Friend would not only assist those who consume electricity and gas, but would also give a greater purchasing power to those who consume. When you give a greater purchasing power to those who consume commodities, you are bound to stimulate employment in other industries in the country. I will give one illustration to show the Minister what I have in mind. When I was on the Neath Town Council we used to produce gas for which we charged something like 3s. per thousand cubic feet, subsequently reducing it to 2s. 10d. The price of gas there to-day is 5s. 6d. per thousand cubic feet. Electricity used to be about 3d. per unit, today it is 5d. I remember the time when my gas bill used to amount to about £1 per quarter. My gas bill to-day, in the winter months, is about £3 per quarter, and my electricity bill, which used to be about 10s., is to-day about 22s. If the Minister gave this relief to municipal authorities, I should have pounds more to spend in another direction. I spend my full limit now, but I have to cut down some things, because I have to give more for my electricity than I had to pay in pre-War days. If the right hon. Gentleman would take not only my case, but the case of millions of others who consume electricity and gas, he will find that it would be a great relief to the ratepayers of municipal authorities, because it would increase their producing powers, and at the same time give a stimulus to other employment in other industries.
I am sorry that the Minister of Health has not seen some way out of this difficulty. I realise the difficulties which the right hon. Gentleman has put before us, but I am sure we shall never get really cheap electricity unless some of the burden of the rates is taken off these undertakings. It is almost unbelievable, but it is quite true that the cost of the rates upon a unit of electricity is higher than the cost of the coal necessary to produce that unit. The selling price of a unit of electricity in the case I am considering is 1⅞d., and of that selling price 1d. has to provide profit, generating cost, and everything else but the rates, and the whole of the seven-eighths is consumed by the rates. Therefore, this is a very serious question.
There is another way in which it will work out unfortunately. Supposing a man is setting up a new factory to produce electric power. He has to consider whether he should put down his own plant or take the company's supply. As a rule, a man can generate his own electricity more cheaply than he can buy it from any company, but if he does not put down his own plant he saves so much capital expenditure, and very often he prefers to take his supply off the main and pay the higher price. In future, the balance will be still more against the public supply company because the man who puts down his own plant will not have any rate burden, and that will make his own supply cheaper vis-à-vis the company from whom he might have taken his supply. I do not think that is quite equitable to the public supply company—I am speaking of electricity companies. I repeat that you will never get a really cheap electrical supply until you give the electricity companies some relief from the burden of the rates.
I should like to congratulate the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken from being one of the first speakers we have heard from the other side to take part with us in offering some measure of criticism of the proposals of the Government. I hope the contribution which the hon. Gentleman has just made will not be the last we shall hear from him before we conclude the discussions on this Bill. I was somewhat befogged by the reply of the Minister of Health to the case made out by the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Greenwood). I believe the Minister of Health said that he was anxious to concentrate the relief which this Bill provides in those places where the relief would be most acceptable and desirable.
The most useful.
I gather that the Minister of Health objected to the suggestion made by my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne in regard to municipal undertakings, that the benefit in these cases would go to the ratepayers, and that that would simply mean taking out of one pocket and putting it into the other. It seems to me that in the case of municipal undertakings there is a strong case to be made out on behalf of their being considered in this respect. The whole purpose of this Bill, as I understand it, is to give relief to areas which we call necessitous. I would like to call the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to the position in an area with which I am well acquainted. In one of the districts which I represent the rates at the present moment are 36s. 2d. in the £. This local authority happens to be jointly associated with other local authorities—they were associated with them before the War—in the building of a joint water undertaking and a joint sewerage undertaking. I suppose what I am about to relate is an experience which is common in other parts of the country, and therefore this is a typical case.
These joint authorities when they originally undertook this proposal contemplated an expenditure of £5,000 or £6,000 for a reservoir. The War came along and this undertaking will now cost nearly £2,000,000. The sewerage scheme was originally estimated to cost £250,000 and now the estimated cost is nearly £800,000. Clearly, on general grounds, these people have a right to have some consideration. The point I want to make is that the right hon. Gentleman has already excluded from this Bill, householders, business people and people who on every ground are just as much entitled on account of the heavy incidence of the local rates to consideration, but they get nothing. The local business man through his Petrol Tax is expected to provide money for those who do not require it at all.
If this Amendment were carried, and the public undertakings were given some share of the benefit, not only would the big concerns that get their water from these undertakings benefit but the business person and the householder would have a proportionate share of the benefit and everyone would participate in the benefits which would accrue if they were included in this Clause. It is very important for municipalities for this reason. I have looked up the Report of the Balfour Committee in order to see what share of these public undertakings is now owned by municipalities, and the figures are quite instructive. In the case of water, municipalities own 81 per cent. of the undertakings; in the case of electricity, they own 66 per cent.; and in the case of tramways they own over 80 per cent. of the undertakings. In the case of gas the proportion owned by municipalities is smaller—some 40 per cent. or thereabouts.
Clearly, in the case of water, electricity and tramways, if these undertakings are able to participate in the benefits of this scheme, then inevitably, as it seems to me, everyone is bound to participate in the benefits therefrom, because a municipality cannot hoard its profits in the way that a company can, or distribute them in bonus shares to individual share- holders; it naturally gives the benefits in reduced charges for the commodity supplied. Therefore, it seems to me that there is a very strong case indeed for including municipal undertakings in the benefits of the scheme. Let me give one other figure. It will be found that mines, minerals, mills, manufactories and so on constitue only 12.31 per cent. of the total industries of the country, while gas, electricity, water, sewers and so on constitute 11.52 per cent. It seems to me, therefore, that on every possible ground—on the ground of benefit to the general mass of the people, on the ground of the public utility which they serve, on the ground of the proportion which they bear of the general burden of taxation—municipal undertakings are entitled to be included in this scheme just as much as prosperous private concerns, and for these reasons, among others, I support the Amendment.
There seems to be some doubt as to the amount of money that this Amendment would involve. I do not know why the Minister did not refer to his own White Paper entitled "Rates levied by Local Authorities," issued just after the Financial Statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. There it is shown that gas undertakings pay in rates over £1,000,000, electricity undertakings £2,400,000, and waterworks £2,372,000, and I suppose we may regard as coming under this category tramways, which pay £2,600,000. Tramways, for some reason or other, have been ignored, and I am rather surprised at that, because tramways, in the London area particularly, have had a very hard struggle in competition with other undertakings that are not subject to rates. It may not be remembered, but the tramway lines are subject to rates, and that has been a very serious burden on the tramway undertakings, with all the competition that they have had to face. That fact might be considered in discussing the case of public undertakings. I was surprised that the Minister brushed aside electricity as an unimportant factor in industry. My knowledge, for what it is worth, is rather in the direction of showing that industry goes where power is cheap. At one time in the history of our country industry went where water power was cheap; then it went where coal power was cheap; and now the tendency is to go where electric power is cheap. [ interruption. ] I beg the right hon. Gentleman's pardon—
I was only saying, sotto voce, that, if that were so, they would all have gone to Newcastle, because electricity happens to be particularly cheap there.
There is, indeed, a tendency, but the shipbuilding industry is just going through a very difficult time, owing to abnormal causes. I am not suggesting that the shipbuilding industry is permanently depressed, but it is certainly temporarily depressed, owing to the War. Many industries, however, have developed in Italy owing to the immense development of electrical power. A lareg number of industries have made great progress during the last few years in Northern Italy owing to the immense development of electrical power there. For many years Italian industries were handicapped by lack of coal power, but, owing to the harnessing of water power and its use for the generation of electricity, great progress has been made there, and that is one of the troubles from which our export trade has suffered. New factors come in in the development of power and electricty in certain countries which were not in the past serious competitors in industry. That applies to Switzerland, Sweden and Italy.
We spent a large part of last year piloting through Parliament an Electricity Bill, which offended a great number of supporters of the Government. There was great internal division, not only in the House, but upstairs in Committee, but the Government insisted on passing the Bill through in spite of great opposition because it insisted that cheap electricity was vital to industrial progress, and it was put forward as a substantial part of the programme to deal with the problem of unemployment. The Minister of Health now comes along in the absence of the Minister of Transport, gives us the advantage of his industrial experience and informs us that all that discussion last year was mere eye-wash, that electricity is not a big factor in industry and that the cheapening of power is not going to make a very vital difference to our industrial progress. They cannot have it both ways.
I think the Minister of Transport was right and that in certain industries cheap power is of great assistance, and if you lower the prices, obviously you help the electrical companies. The way to increase the demand is to lower the price, and increasing the demand would increase the profits of the electrical companies. There is a sliding scale of dividends as regards electricity and gas companies. Dividends are regulated by the price. As the price goes down dividends go up. If the Government are anxious to help industry, anything that is going to bring down the price of power is a direct stimulus to industrial progress. The Minister has only a little money to give away but it is unfortunate that, in resistance to the Amendment, he should put forward the suggestion that the price of electricity is not a factor in industry. I submit that it is a very big factor, especially at a time like this of severe competition.
I have listened to the Debate, and I am hound to say I cannot understand the arguments put forward by the Opposition. It is said power is of great importance in the matter of industry. No doubt that is true, but the object of the Amendment is to water this power of supply, not for the benefit of the industries the Government is asking us to assist, but for the benefit of every consumer of electricity in the area. Supposing the sum available among the manufacturers amounts to £5 per head. If you water that sum by giving the benefit to public undertakings, private customers, householders and theatres, it is obvious that the manufacturers will not receive £5. Which is really the better, to give the whole £5 to the manufacturer or to give him only £1? Obviously, to give him the whole £5. It is quite clear that the manufacturer can apply the whole of the £5 in reduction of the charge for power as well as anyone else can do it for him. Therefore, the real proposal is really to destroy this Bill. The object is quite clear. The scheme of the Government, rightly or wrongly, is to relieve productive industry in order to enable our manufacturers to compete in the markets of the world, to enable them to produce more cheaply and in the hope and belief, as I think, that it will greatly add to employment in this country. What is the worst burden we have upon our rates? Why, it is unemployment, and everybody knows it. You will get the best and the greatest relief there, and it will do more good to the country than anything else. Throughout this Debate it has really been a question of watering down this relief to the contemptible farthing. Hon. Gentlemen opposite would then be able to go to the country and say that they had so manipulated the Bill that instead of getting the hypothetical sum of £5 of which I have been speaking, they would only get half-a-sovereign or a farthing. That is their purpose, and I hope that no one on our side of the House will be deluded by them.
I am really at a loss to know what is the explanation of this Clause. We have Clause 3 saying that industrial hereditaments shall have certain privileges and this Sub-section says that you shall exclude from those privileges industrial undertakings known as public supply undertakings. You are to give privileges if they are industrial hereditaments for the purpose of a private supply, but not if they are for the purpose of a public supply. I confess that I do not appreciate the distinction. If we look at the definition of public supply undertakings we find that it includes undertakings carried on for the supply of gas, water and electricity for public purposes. I remember well in the Debate on the Electricity Supply
Bill that the point that was made again and again was: "It is a thousand times better to set up your central power and let it be tapped throughout the country than to have sporadically in existence a number of partly effective private undertakings." This Bill so far from following that principle says, "You may set up as many private electric supply companies as you wish and they will be de-rated, but ii you have the temerity to set up what our Electricity (Supply) Act encourages you to set up—some central electric supply body—then you will not have any privileges." What is the meaning of this? The Minister said on the Second Reading of this Bill—I do not know what he has said tonight because I came in late—that the reason that this privilege was denied to public supply undertakings was that they did not pass it on to their consumers. The Minister knows as well as I do that nearly every one of the Statutes under which these utility companies—
It being half-past Ten of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER proceeded, pursuant to the Order of the House of 28th June, to put forthwith the Question on the Amendment already proposed from the Chair.
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
The House divided: Ayes, 240; Noes, 131.
Division No. 289.] AYES. [10.30 p.m. Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Briscoe, Richard George Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Brittain, Sir Harry Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Brocklebank, C. E. R. Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Allen, Sir J. Sandeman Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Braun-Lindsay, Major H. Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Apsley, Lord Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Cunliffe, Sir Herbert Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) Buckingham, Sir H. Curzon, Captain Viscount Atholl, Duchess of Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Balfour, George (Hampstead) Burman, J. B. Davies, Dr. Vernon Balniel, Lord Burton, Colonel H. W. Dawson, Sir Philip Banks, Sir Reginald Mitchell Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Dean, Arthur Wellesley Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Campbell, E. T. Dixey, A. C. Barnett Major Sir Richard Carver, Major W. H. Drewe, C. Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Cassels, J. D. Edmondson, Major A. J. Bennett, A. J. Cautley, Sir Henry S. Elliot, Major Walter E. Berry, Sir George Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.) Ellis, R. G. Bethel, A. Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.) Betterton, Henry B. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Bevan, S. J. Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Everard, W. Lindsay Birchall, Major J. Dearman Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Fairfax, Captain J. G. Blundell, F. N. Chapman, Sir S. Falle, Sir Bertram G. Boothby, R. J. G. Christie, J. A. Fermoy, Lord Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Churchman, Sir Arthur C. Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart Cobb, Sir Cyril Foster, Sir Harry S. Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Fraser, Captain Ian Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B. Colfax, Major Wm. Phillips Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony Brass, Captain W. Cope, Major Sir William Galbraith, J. F. W. Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Courtauld, Major J. S. Gates, Percy Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Long, Major Eric Savery, S. S. Glyn, Major R. G. C. Looker, Herbert William Scott, Rt. Hon, Sir Leslie Goff, Sir Park Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W. R., Sowerby) Gower, Sir Robert Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harmen Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Grace, John Lynn, Sir R. J. Shepperson, E. W. Grant, Sir J. A. MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down) Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Skelton, A. N. Greaves-Lord. Sir Walter Macdonald. R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Greene, W. P. Crawford McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus Smith-Carington, Neville W. Grotrian, H Brent. MacIntyre, Ian Smithers, Waldron Guest, Capt Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N.) McLean, Major A. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. MacRobert, Alexander M. Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Gunston, Captain D. W. Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F Hacking, Douglas H. Makins, Brigadier-General E. Stanley, Lord (Fylde) Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Malone, Major P. B. Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) Hall, Capt. W. D'A (Brecon & Rad.) Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Steel, Major Samuel Strang Hamilton, Sir George Meyer, Sir Frank Storry-Deans, R. Hammersley, S. S. Milne, J. S. Wardlaw Styles, Captain H. W. Hanbury, C. Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Harland, A. Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Templeton, W. P. Harrison, G. J. C. Moore. Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) Hartington, Marquess of Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) Nelson, Sir Frank Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Tinne, J. A. Haslam, Henry C. Newton, Sir D. G. C (Cambridge) Titchfield, Major the Marquess of Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Henn, Sir Sydney H. O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William Waddington, R. Hills, Major John Waller Penny, Frederick George Ward, Lt.-Col A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Perkins, Colonel E K. Warrender, Sir Victor Holt, Capt. H. P. Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Waterhouse, Captain Charles Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley) Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Pilcher, G. Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) Hopkins, J. W. W. Preston, William Wells, S. R. Hopkinson, A (Lancaster, Mossley) Price, Major C. W. M. White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple- Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. Raine, Sir Walter Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Ramsden, E. Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) Hume, Sir G. H. Reid, D. D. (County Down) Wilson, Sir Murrough (Yorks, Richm'd) Iliffe, Sir Edward M. Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Can'l) Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Wolmer, Viscount James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Ropner, Major L. Womersley, W. J. Jephcott, A R. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley Kennedy, A, R. (Preston). Rye, F. G. Woodcock, Colonel H. C. Kindersley, Major Guy M. Salmon, Major I. Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. King, Commodore Henry Douglas Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Wragg, Herbert Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. Lamb, J. Q. Sandeman, N. Stewart Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich) Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Sanders, Sir Robert A. Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Sanderson, Sir Frank TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Captain Margesson and Captain Wallace.
NOES. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Dunnico, H. Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) England, Colonel A. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) John, William (Rhondda, West) Ammon, Charles George Fenby, T. D. Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Attlee, Clement Richard Forrest, W. Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bliston) Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Gibbins, Joseph Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Barr, J. Gillett, George M. Kelly, W. T. Batey, Joseph Gosling, Harry Kennedy, T. Bondfield, Margaret Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Lansbury, George Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Lawrence, Susan Briant, Frank Griffith, F. Kingsley Lawson, John James Broad, F. A. Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Lee, F. Bromley, J. Groves, T. Lindley, F. W. Brown, Ernest (Leith) Grundy, T. W. Lowth, T. Buchanan, G. Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Lunn, William Charleton, H. C. Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) Cluse, W. S. Hardie, George D. Mackinder, W. Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Harney, E. A. MacLaren, Andrew Compton, Joseph Harris, Percy A. Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Connolly, M. Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Cove, W. G. Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) Montague, Frederick Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Morris, R. H Crawfurd, H. E. Hirst, G. H. Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Dalton, Hugh Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Murnin, H. Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Hollins, A. Naylor, T. E. Day, Harry Hore-Belisha, Leslie Oliver, George Harold Dennison, R. Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Palin, John Henry Paling, W. Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Pethick-Lewrence, F. W. Sitch, Charles H. Wellock, Wilfred Ponsonby, Arthur Slesser Sir Henry H. Westwood, J. Potts, John S. Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. Purcell, A. A. Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Wiggins, William Martin Rees, Sir Beddoe Snell, Harry Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly) Riley, Ben Stephen, Campbell Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland) Strauss, E. A. Windsor, Walter Saklatvala, Shapurji Sutton, J. E. Wright, W. Salter, Dr. Alfred Thorne. G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Scrymgeour, E. Thurtle, Ernest Scurr, John Tomlinson, R. P. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Sexton, James Townend, A. E. Mr. Whiteley and Mr. A. Barnes. Shinwell, E. Viant, S. P.
Mr. SPEAKER then proceeded successively to put forthwith the Questions on any Amendments moved by the Government of which notice had been given to that part of the Bill to be concluded at half-past Ten of the clock at this day's sitting.
Amendments made:
In page 3, line 26, leave out the words "for the housing or maintenance of road vehicles," and insert instead thereof the words:
"by the occupier for the housing or maintenance of his road vehicles or as stables."
In page 3, line 33, at the end, insert the words:
(3) "Where two or more properties within the same curtilage, or contiguous to one another, are in the same occupation and, though treated as two or more hereditaments for the purposes of rating and valuation by reason of being situate in different parishes or of having been valued at different times or for any other reason, are used as parts of a single mine, mineral railway. factory, or workshop, then, for the purposes of determining whether the several hereditaments are industrial hereditaments they shall be treated as if they formed parts of a single hereditament comprising all such hereditaments."
In page 4, line 3, leave out the words "and includes any premises or place," and insert instead thereof the words:
"but also includes any premises, place, or works, whether below ground or above ground, primarily occupied and used for the purpose of draining or otherwise protecting from damage any mine or group of mines or."
In line 6, at the end, insert the words:
"'Mineral railway' means a railway, tramway, or ropeway used primarily for the transport of minerals from a mine, or from two or more mines, to the railway of a railway company or to a dock and in the latter case includes also such dock."—[ Mr. Chamberlain. ]
CLAUSE 4.—(Entries in valuation lists as to industrial hereditaments.)
Amendment made:
In page 5, line 9, at the end, insert the words:
"( c ) where two or more hereditaments in the same occupations are, by virtue of the provisions of Sub-section (3) of the last foregoing Section, treated as if they formed parts of a single hereditament, each of the several hereditaments shall be deemed to be occupied and used for industrial purposes and for other purposes respectively in the proportion in which, if all the hereditaments formed a single hereditament, that single hereditament would be deemed to be so occupied and used."—[ Mr. Chamberlain. ]
Motion made, and Question, "That further Consideration of the Bill, as amended, be now adjourned," put, and agreed to.—[ Mr. Chamberlain. ]
Bill, as amended, to be further considered To-morrow.
Straits Settlements and Johope Territorial Water (Agreement) Bill [Lords]
Order for Second Reading read.
I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
The Bill aims at sanctioning an agreement which has been come to between the Government of Johore and the Straits Settlements Government in reference to the territorial waters of the Sovereign State of Johore and the British colony of Straits Settlements. The old Treaty whereby Great Britain obtained possession of the Island of Singapore, which was drawn up by Sir Stamford Raffles and finally ratified in 1824, had the effect, if strictly construed, of claiming for the Colony of Straits Settlements not merely the whole of the water of the Island of Singapore, but of islands which really are part of the State of Johore. One of these islands is 100 yards from Johore and two or three miles from Singapore. It is a small island of 26 acres and according to the Treaty of 1824, was regarded as part of the Colony of the Straits Settlements but, according to justice and equity, and according to intention it ought to be part of the State of Johore. Further difficulties have arisen in regard to policing arrangements. According to the original Treaty of 1824 the State of Johore had no jurisdiction in this respect and the result was that there was continual friction, if the Straits Settlements police arrested people who were Johore subjects and not British subjects, in what were obviously Johore waters. So it was arranged by the late governor that a new Treaty should be drafted redefining the line between the State of Johore and the Straits Settlements. That was given effect to, and a final survey was made by the present governor, and the matter now requires Parliamentary sanction. It is a cession of the rights acquired by Sir Stamford Raffles in 1824 long before the present practical considerations had arisen but it is only in accordance with the rights of the State of Johore that the mistake should be rectified and that a formal line should be drawn between the State of Johore and ourselves.
I beg to move, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day three months."
I should like to hear from the Minister in charge how much territory is being handed back to the Sultan of Johore. I do not want to go into the whole question of Singapore, but one would like to know how much military or naval advice, with regard these islands, is involved in this proposal. If there is one point which justifies a Motion for the rejection of this Bill it is the absence of information upon it. The small map which has been placed in the tea room gives no clear indication of the intentions of the Government. One would like more information as to the erection of this bridge or causeway between Singapore and the mainland of Johore. The whole proposal is difficult to understand, and the Department con- cerned is to blame if there is any want of understanding among hon. Members because of their failure to produce for us proper maps and information. One of the points made by the Under-Secretary was about the difficulty of policing these waters, but I think there will be the same difficulty in the future. You are proposing to draw a line of division, and I take it there will then be a double system of policing—policing from the Johore side as well as the Singapore side. I am not sure that the drawing of this imaginary line will make it any less difficult to police these waters. My reason for moving the rejection is the absence of information, and because we are not quite clear as to whether it is intended that the erection of further armaments shall take place on that site. I am informed by one who has recently returned from that part of the world that a good deal of this land is in the possession of another country, having been leased to it. If that be so, at any rate we ought to be informed of it. In the absence of this information, I more the rejection of the Bill.
I beg to second the Amendment. I do so in order that we may get the necessary information from the Government on this matter.
I am very happy to supply the information which has been asked for. This Bill has nothing to do with tile causeway which was completed some time ago to establish road and railway communications between the mainland and the Island of Singapore for commercial purposes. With regard to the Islands, I believe there are three. All are uninhabited, but one, the largest, is of some economic importance, as it has this quarry for road metal. Its total area is about 26 acres, one rood. These small islands, if this Bill is passed, will be recognised as belonging to the State of Johore. There is no truth whatever in the suggestion that any other foreign Power contemplates the use of any of these islands for military or other purposes, or has any lease or other hold over them. Further than that, in so far as the police point is concerned, I hope the days of rubber smuggling are over for ever, but, if they are not over, then it is much better for the Johore police to deal with Johore subjects and for the Straits Settlements Police to deal with Straits Settlement subjects. That is much more satisfactory than to have continual wranglings between the two authorities of Johore and Straits Settlements. I can really assure the House that there is nothing sinister or furtive or anything connected with trouble behind this Bill. Then I was asked if the naval and military people have ever been consulted. Yes, the Admiralty and the War Office have, and they raised no objection to the Colonial Office proceeding with this Bill in the interest of the good administration of the Straits Settlements and Johore.
Question, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question," put, and agreed to.
Bill read a Second time.
Bill committed to a Committee of the Whole House for To-morrow.—[ Mr. Ormsby-Gore. ]
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
Adjournment
Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[ Commander Eyres Monsell. ]
Adjourned accordingly at Five Minutes before Eleven o'Clock.