House of Commons
Tuesday, July 17, 1928
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
Private Business
Oxford Extension Bill [ Lords ],
Read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments.
Dover Gas Bill [ Lords ],
Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Tramways (Trolley Vehicles, etc.) Bill [ Lords ],
Stretford and District Electricity Board Bill [ Lords ],
Wessex Electricity Bill [ Lords ],
As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.
Morecambe Corporation Bill [ Lords ],
Read a Second time, and committed.
Oral Answers to Questions
Questions
Films
1 and 3.
asked the President of the Board of Trade (1) how many complaints have been made to his Department concerning the infringement of Part I of the Cinematograph Films Act, 1927; and can he say what action his Department has taken with regard to them;
(2) whether he is now in a position to state the number of complaints received by his Department from various sources making allegations concerning the infringement of Part I of the Cinematograph Films Act; whether these complaints have been made before the Advisory Committee appointed under this Act; whether the Advisory Committee have issued their Report on these complaints; and can he say what action has been taken?
I have nothing to add to the answers which I have already given to the hon. Member on the subject.
Is it possible for the right hon. Gentleman to tell us the number of complaints that have been made with regard to infringement of this part of the Act?
No. There was a general suggestion that there were breaches of the Act. I have already told the hon. Member that if there are cases in which I am satisfied that an offence can be proved, I shall not hesitate to prosecute.
Since there was a complaint of a general character of some breach of this part of the Act, did the right hon. Gentleman or his officers not think it worth while to inquire of the people who were making the complaints to specify the breaches mentioned?
I did, and it is the case that where any action arises on which I am advised that a prosecution can take place a prosecution will he instituted.
Is it not a fact that more than one complaint has been made with regard to infraction of this part of the Act?
If there is a suggestion that there are breaches, that in itself involves a suggestion that there is more than one complaint, but I cannot deal with general suggestions of that kind. I must deal with specific cases on which I am advised I can successfully take action.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the British delegate at the recent League of Nations conference was instructed to support the French or the United States attitude as to autonomy in cinematograph film legislation and the right to place restrictions on the display of American films?
I understand that the British delegate at the conference took no part in the discussions to which my Noble Friend doubtless refers, and which related to the question whether the legislation in regard to films in certain countries other than the United Kingdom were consistent with the Import and Export Restriction Convention. Moreover, the conference did not feel it necessary to express any opinion on the point.
Manchuria (British Trade)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has separate figures showing the annual value of the British import and export trade with Manchuria; and, if so, what are these figures for the last complete year for which he has the information?
Separate figures of imports into the United Kingdom from Manchuria and of exports to that province from the United Kingdom are not available.
Government Departments
Clearing Office for Enemy Debts (Mr. Hewlitt)
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will state the date on which Mr. H. J. Hewlitt was first employed by the Departments for the administration of German, Austrian, Hungarian and Bulgarian property; what was the total amount received by him as remuneration and expenses; whether he is aware that Mr. Hewlitt is an officer of the Abbey Road Building Society, the chairman of which is also administrator of German, Austrian, Hungarian and Bulgarian property; and what are the total amounts paid to the other valuers separately since the date of Mr. Hewlitt's appointment?
Mr. Hewlitt was first employed by the Department in September, 1925. It is unnecessary for the purpose of the Clearing Office work to keep personal ledgers showing the fees received by their various agents, and the amount of the fees paid respectively to the many valuers employed throughout the country could not be ascertained without a very serious expenditure of time and labour. I have, however, had an estimate prepared of the total amount of the fees received by Mr. Hewlitt on account of valuations and sales, and I find they have amounted approximately to £1,500. I understand that Mr. Hewlitt is not an officer of the Abbey Road Building Society but is only one of many valuers employed by that society. I would add that I am satisfied that the employment of this gentleman has been of very definite financial advantage to the Department.
Lady Deputy Lunacy Commissioner, Scotland
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what are the duties allocated to the lady assistant commissioner employed under the General Board of Control for Scotland?
The normal duties of the lady deputy commissioner consist of visiting lunatics and mental defectives under guardianship in private dwellings throughout Scotland. Occasionally she inspects lunatic wards of poorhouses.
Does the right hon. Gentleman think that these are all the things that she ought to do? Does he not think that her powers ought to be greater in regard to looking into more matters?
I think, broadly speaking, that she is employed on those duties for which she is most suitable.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the assistant commissioner has any powers over the food supply, whether she inspects the kitchen and the sanitary accommodation, and whether she has the right to make reports as to defects in the food supply?
I have no doubt that she would make reports on anything that came to her notice. I have no reason to doubt that she does not do so.
How is it possible for her to make reports on things in regard to which she is not allowed to have any control?
State-Owned Vessels (Immunity)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the diplomatic immunity of the United States of America shipping lines was specifically upheld by the Court of Appeal in the case of Compania Mercantil Argentina v. United States Shipping Board; and whether his present negotiations are directed to remedying this position?
I understand that the decision to which the hon. and learned Member refers was given in 1924, and that its effect was that the United States Shipping Board was held to be an executive branch of the United States Government and, as such, was entitled to claim immunity in our Courts. I am advised that the Draft Convention for the Unification of certain rules relating to the immunity of State-owned vessels would, if adopted by the Government of the United States, cover the case referred to above.
Coal Industry
Rating Relief
asked the President of the Board of Trade why the information regarding the proportion of rating relief which will go to firms making a large proportion of the profits and to firms making the remainder of the profit or losses, which has already been published for other industries, is not available in respect of the mining industry?
The estimates for the proportions of rating relief which will go to firms making profits and losses respectively were based on sample investigations made in 1923, and conditions in the coal trade have altered so much since that date that the Inland Revenue Department find that these samples cannot be used as a basis for an estimate of the same kind for that trade.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has received a communication from the joint secretaries of the board of conciliation for the coal trade in South Wales, calling his attention to the fact that over 7,000 miners have ceased work in South Wales since 31st March last, and that there are a large number now on notice or working day-to-day contracts and liable to cease work any day; and will he now state whether it is the intention to expedite the relief to be given to the coal trade under the Budget proposals, or give some immediate relief to the coal export trade?
I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given to the hon. Member for Pontypool (Mr. T. Griffiths) on the 12th July, of which I am sending him a copy.
Does it mean that it is not the intention of the Government to provide any measure of relief in time to save this industry?
The Chancellor of the Exchequer has said that he is watching with much concern this matter and hopes to give information before the end of the Session.
Are we to understand that we are going to get a definite statement from the Government as to this problem before we rise for the Recess?
Workmen's Compensation (Companies in Liquidation)
asked the Secretary for Mines the name and situation of each colliery company in each British coalfield that has gone into liquidation since 31st December, 1926, up to the latest available date; the total number of persons employed at each of these collieries who were in receipt of compensation for accident or industrial disease up to the date of liquidation; and the total number of such disabled miners who are still disabled and have been deprived of their compensation owing to the liquidation of these colliery companies?
The information asked for by the hon. Member could not be obtained except with an amount of labour and expense which I do not think could be justified.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is great dissatisfaction in all the coalfields in regard to this matter? Is it not a fact that, owing to the depression in the coal industry, a large number of collieries have closed down and have gone into liquidation and that a considerable number of miners, possibly thousands, who are idle on account of accidents or industrial disease, are not now being given their compensation money, because of these liquidations? If that has happened, and I suggest that it has, is it not time for the Government to legislate in this matter in order to put right this injustice to the miners?
That is not the question on the Paper. I was asked whether I could give information as to precise particulars, and I cannot do that without making exhaustive inquiries over every company which has gone into liquidation and into the detailed accounts which may come before the liquidator.
Why cannot the Minister do that in view of the fact that this is a very grave matter affecting many thousands of miners? Is it not a very great injustice that miners who are idle because of accidents arising out of their employment are deprived of compensation because these companies deliberately go into liquidation?
There may or may not be a case for altering the law about companies going into liquidation and evading their financial responsibilities, but that is not the question on the Paper, and I do not express any opinion upon it. I am asked whether I can authorise a very exhaustive and very expensive inquiry, which would be useless.
Since we are not likely to get amending legislation unless and until this information is forthcoming, will the right hon. Gentleman, on behalf of these victims of misfortune, obtain information for that purpose?
In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this question on the Adjournment.
Accidents (Steel Props)
asked the Secretary for Mines whether, in view of the fact that falls of roof are the most prolific cause of accidents in coal mines, he will state what steps are being taken by the Mines Department to expedite the use of steel props in coal mines; in how many coal mines steel props are now in use; and whether the experience gained proves their superiority over timber props?
The full influence of my Department is being actively exerted to encourage the use of steel supports instead of timber in suitable cases. I regret that I am unable to answer the second part of the question. With regard to the last part, in the opinion of my advisers, steel is superior to timber in many cases, but the basis of experience is not yet broad enough to enable me to generalise. I am glad to say that in addition to the interest stimulated by the activities of His Majesty's inspectors, the British Colliery Owners' Research Association and the Midland Institute have each appointed special officers to investigate this subject.
Is the hon. and gallant Member aware that the Yorkshire miners have always opposed the use of steel props, and is he further aware that it has been proved in Yorkshire that steel props are more dangerous to the men than timber props?
That does not affect my answer.
Can the hon. and gallant Member say the difference in the cost?
Not without notice.
Closed Mines
asked the Secretary for Mines the nominal capital value of colliery concerns which have closed down since 1st January, 1925?
I regret that this information is not available.
asked the Secretary for Mines whether he can give the figures showing the annual productive capacity of the pits which have been closed down since 1st January, 1925?
Excluding pits which have been abandoned, the annual productive capacity of the seams which were being worked at pits closed down since 1st January, 1925, is estimated to be approximately 30,000,000 tons.
Can the hon. and gallant Member give us the figures for each mine separately?
Not without unreasonable expense and trouble.
Profits
asked the Secretary for Mines whether, in view of the fact that the ratio of rates to profits in 1927 is estimated to have been 27 per cent. in the case of mines, he will state the amount of profits for the mining industry in that year?
It is not possible to give from the information in the possession of the Mines Department particulars of the profits of the coal-mining industry which will be comparable with those on which the figure of 27 per cent., to which the hon. Member refers, was based. That figure was calculated, as my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer explained, as a sample of returns of mining undertakings which paid Income Tax and therefore necessarily omitted undertakings which made a loss. The position in regard to the coal-mining industry as a whole is made available in the quarterly summaries published as Command Papers by the Mines Department.
Is it not true that the hon. and gallant Member could give the profits of the mineowners for the year 1927, if he wished?
No, Sir.
Am I to understand the hon. and gallant Member to say that he is unable to give the profits secured by the mineowners in any given year?
The hon. Member is fully aware that the information which I have in regard to the profits of individual companies I am not at liberty to disclose.
Pulverised Coal
asked the Secretary for Mines whether pulverised coal is now being used as fuel on a commercial basis, either experi- mentally or as an established success; and whether his Department is promoting any tests in this direction?
Pulverised coal is being used as fuel on land on a commercial basis with established success; the use of this fuel at sea has not yet however reached that stage. As regards experimental work on this fuel in this country, I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given by the President of the Board of Trade on 5th July to the hon. Member for the Bedwellty Division of Monmouth.
Is the hon. and gallant Member aware that some hon. Members on this side of the House think that it would be a good thing if the present Government were jolly well pulverised?
Is it not possible for the Government to induce the Naval Department to use one or two of their old ships as experimental vessels for the purpose of testing the use of pulverised coal at sea, as that appears to be the most difficult aspect of the problem?
Can the hon. and gallant Member say what funds exist for the promotion of these tests, and does he think under the circumstances, in view of the importance of the matter, that the funds are sufficient?
The tests are carried out under the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, through the Fuel Research Board.
Can the hon. and gallant Member say how long these tests have been going on in any ships of His Majesty's Government?
Not without notice.
Is it not the case that the Fuel Research Board, with which the hon. and gallant Member is in contact, although he is not responsible for it, is promoting such tests, and can he say whether those tests have proved successful or not?
If the hon. Member will refer to the reply of the President of the Board of Trade he will see what is being done in that regard.
Can the Secretary for Mines tell the House what is the saving accomplished by pulverising a ton of coal, and adding the cost of pulverising, as against using a ton of ordinary round coal?
Obviously, not without notice.
I thought so.
British Army
Family Allowances
asked the Secretary of State for War, seeing that the compulsory school-leaving age has been raised to 15 in certain districts, a practice which is likely to be increased, if he will make provision for the payment of family allowances in respect of the children. of men serving in the Army until the age of 15?
Provision has already been made for the payment of marriage allowance to be continued in respect of children if they are required to attend school up to the age of 15.
Regimental Bands (Political Demonstrations)
asked the Secretary of State for War what are the regulations concerning the employment of regimental bands to play at party political demonstrations; and if he is aware that military bands have played at certain political demonstrations recently, the bandsmen being in their uniforms?
Military bands are not permitted to play at political meetings. My attention has been drawn to a case in which an engagement had apparently been accepted for such a meeting. I have called for a report on this case and in the meantime have had instructions issued that the engagement is to be cancelled. I am obliged to the hon. and gallant Member for his courteous letter on the subject.
British Searchlight Tattoo
asked the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the forma- tion of a London company to organise a touring tattoo under Mlle title of British Searchlight Tattoo; and whether this project has been sanctioned by the Army Council?
My attention has been called to some statements in the Press. In contradistinction to the Military Tattoos organised by General Officers Commanding-in-Chief in Commands, the profits of which go to military charities, this project is purely a commercial undertaking for which it is said the public are to be asked to subscribe a large sum of money. The scheme has not been framed in consultation with, nor is it approved by, the Army Council, who are not prepared to permit the participation of Regular or of Territorial troops in any of its activities.
Has the right hon. Gentleman consulted the Law Officers as to the legality of the uniform of His Majesty being used for such purposes by a private company?
I have no evidence at present that this private company intends to use the uniform of any existing units. Should that appear to be likely, I will be advised upon the subject.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the law at present is that a uniform that approximates to His Majesty's uniform is prohibited for such purposes, and is not the Minister himself most concerned to see that no such use is made of it?
I am most concerned to see that no improper use is made of His Majesty's uniform.
Will the right hon. Gentleman take notice of the fact that clothing having the appearance of uniform is being used by certain party organisers?
Scotland
Contributory Pensions Act
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many claims have been received for widows' and old age pensions, respectively, under the Widows', Orphans' and Old Age Con- tributory Pensions Act, 1925; and how many have been refused and the reasons for their refusal?
As the answer is rather long and contains a number of figures I propose, with the hon. Member's permission, to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the answer:
As at the 13th July, 1928, 39,258 claims for widows' pensions under the Act had been received in Scotland and of these 7,567 had been refused. The reason for refusal in 59 per cent. of the cases was that, in respect of the special categories of applicants provided for in Sections 18 and 19 of the Act, the condition that there should be at least one child under 14 years of age was not satisfied. The remainder were refused principally on the ground that the statutory conditions with regard to insurance were not fulfilled. Up to the same date 75,155 applications had been received for old age pensions payable under the Act to persons between the ages of 65 and 70, of which 10,491 had been refused. Of the claims refused 56 per cent. had been submitted under a misapprehension as to the conditions of eligibility mainly by uninsured women claiming pensions in respect of the insurance history of husbands outwith the age limits or already deceased. The principal reasons for refusal in the remaining cases were that the statutory conditions with regard to age and insurance were not satisfied. In addition 45,077 claims had been received for pensions payable to persons over 70 years of age by virtue of the Act and of these 4,932 had been refused mainly because they did not satisfy the conditions as to age and insurance; while 31,148 claims had been received from persons over 70 years of age in receipt of pensions under the Acts of 1908 to 1924 for exemption from inquiries as to means and of these 7,013 could not be admitted.
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many widows, having received pension under the Widows', Orphans' and Old Age Contributory Pensions Act, 1925, have now ceased to receive benefit owing to their youngest child having reached the age of 14 years and 6 months?
The number is 3,850.
Flooding, Garmouth
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is now in a position to give the results of his inquiries into the flooding of agricultural lands at Garmouth, Morayshre; and what steps it is proposed to take to ensure this year's crops from being destroyed by the overflowing of the River Spey?
I have received a report from the Board of Agriculture which confirms that, as a result of the exceptional floods of last autumn and winter, damage has been done to land and buildings at Garmouth. In all some 65 acres of land have been inundated. The flooding is believed to be due chiefly to the fact that the river has recently taken a definite change of course, with the result that the main current now impinges on arable land near Garmouth. I understand, however, that although the river has been in flood a number of times since last August, the serious flooding of arable land was confined to one occasion when similar conditions were experienced in other parts of the country. I am advised that to protect the land against further flooding it would be necessary to erect a flood bank at fairly considerable cost. With regard to the second part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to my reply to his question on 1st May, on the subject of the flooding of the river Kelvin. Under the existing law the situation can only be dealt with by the riparian owners concerned.
Is the right hon. Gentleman contemplating at an early date introducing legislation to stop this enormous waste in agricultural crops
The question of early legislation, I am afraid, is prohibited by the circumstances in which we are, but I am in agreement with the hon. Member that something requires to be done.
In view of the unanimity that could be secured in the House for protection of this kind, would the right hon. Gentleman not consider legislation?
If there were unanimity in the House, that might put a different complexion on it, but, in fact, there are so many complicated questions arising on the subject that it is far from being an agreed problem.
If it becomes necessary to erect the bank mentioned in the answer, on whom does the responsibility of the expense fall?
Upon the riparian owners.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman think it would be better to deepen the river rather than have this annual waste by overflowing?
Relief of Distress, Barra (Diseased Potatoes)
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is aware that, during the distress at Barra in the winter of 1923–24, the Scottish Board of Health provided, through the Goschen Loan Committee, to the local parish council, 50 tons of potatoes; that about 17 per cent. of these potatoes were unfit for consumption and had to be dumped in the sea or used as manure; that these diseased potatoes were inspected before destruction by a supervisor from the Scottish Board of Health; and that the Scottish Board of Health has admitted the justice of allowing the parish council a rebate for the destroyed potatoes; and if he can explain the cause of the delay in making the necessary financial adjustment?
I am informed that in connection with the relief of distress in the Outer Hebrides during the winter of 1923–24 the Scottish Board of Health and the Board of Agriculture for Scotland simply acted as agents for the parish councils concerned, including Barra, thereby enabling a considerably lower price to be obtained generally, and that the two Departments took every possible precaution and cannot accept responsibilty for unavoidable loss. I am advised that the fact that payment for the potatoes was being made from money advanced on loan by the Goschen Committee has no real relevance to the question of responsibility for the loss incurred by Barra Parish Council.
Is it not the case that the supervisor from the Scottish Board of Health who saw the potatoes realised that they were rotten, reported the fact to the Scottish Board of Health, and that the Scottish Board of Health did, as a matter of fact, make application to the Treasury to have the Barra Parish Council forgiven this debt? Will the right hon. Gentleman further consider the matter so as not to have litigation over 8½ tons of rotten potatoes?
As I have stated in my reply, I am advised that there is no claim that can be made on this point.
Will the right hon. Gentleman, if I submit to him a letter from the Barra Parish Council on the subject, undertake to give the matter his personal investigation?
Certainly.
Can the right hon. Gentleman give any reason why compensation should be paid in consequence of Scotland being one of the richest parts of the Empire?
Poor Law Relief
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if and when he intends to issue a report showing the number of persons in receipt of Poor Law relief on a given date in Scotland, similar to the Report just issued by the Minister of Health in respect to England and Wales?
Information with regard to the number of persons in receipt of poor relief in Scotland is published annually in the Report of the Scottish Board of Health. I am not satisfied, therefore, that the preparation of further particulars on the lines of the Return mentioned in the question would be justified.
Smoke Abatement
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether it is intended to introduce during the lifetime of the present Parliament a Smoke Abatement Bill for Scotland on lines similar to the Act of 1926, which applied to England and Wales?
asked the Secretary for Scotland if it is his intention at an early date to bring in a Bill to extend the powers granted in England under the Public Health (Smoke Abatement) Act, 1926, to Scotland?
I can hold out no hope of early legislation on this subject, and I am not in a position to make a statement as to the prospects of legislation.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say why Scotland should not have the same consideration as England, having regard to the fact that there can be no exception taken to this legislation? Is there any reason why it should not be submitted?
As I understand it, the legislation which has been passed for England merely brought England into line with what obtains in Scotland to-day.
Rating Relief (Glasgow)
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether, in view of the statement in the White Paper that under the new rating proposals rates in Glasgow, judged by the 1927–28 basis, will be reduced 3¾d per £of rental, the property owners are to benefit by that reduction, or whether the Government will ensure that any such benefit will be refunded to tenants of houses, seeing that property owners were given power to increase rents partly because of high local rates?
Owners and occupiers in Glasgow, as elsewhere, will benefit from the relief in the proportion in which they respectively bear the rates at present. No provision requiring the owner to pay over his share of the relief to the occupier is contemplated.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that it is very unfair that since rents were increased on account of high rates and in order to help the owners, now that these owners are getting relief some of it should not find its way hack again?
I have no reason to suppose that they will not share in proportion as the benefit is given.
In what part of the one Clause in the Bill dealing with this matter is there any provision made for the return of any part of that which is going to the landlords or to the owners?
As I have said in the answer, they will benefit from relief in the proportion in which they respectively pay the rates at present.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the statement which is now made only refers to one section, because my question deals with those who are paying rent. Is he going to state now whether he is going to make provision before the Bill becomes an Act in order that this sum to be given in relief will go back to those upon whom the increased rents were levied?
I made it clear in my answer, that no provision requiring the owner to pay over more than his share to the occupier is contemplated.
That means that you are going to give benefit to the owner to the disadvantage of the tenant.
Housing
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland the total amount paid in subsidy in connection with the various housing schemes in Scotland; and what the amount would have been on the eleven-eightieths basis of the total amount spent in the United Kingdom?
Up to the 31st March, 1928, the total amount paid by the State towards the cost of the various housing schemes in Scotland was £7,923,424 1s. 6d. As regards the amount paid in England and Wales for the same period I would refer the hon. Member to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health. It is not I fear possible to compare the figures for the two countries on an eleven-eightieths basis since there are several factors which are not strictly comparable.
Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether on the eleven-eightieths basis there would be more or less paid in Scotland?
No, Sir, as I pointed out it is almost impossible to get comparable figures, but I might remind the hon. Member that Scotland has got all the money necessary to meet the outlay on houses which have been constructed.
The right hon. Gentleman does not tell us whether there has been a greater amount spent proportionately in Scotland or less as compared with England.
The hon. Gentleman knows as well as anybody else that our progress in housing has been slower than in England for various causes.
Then I may take it that, because of the slow progress in Scotland, Scotland has not got the proper amount of money in this connection? Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us why progress has been so much slower in Scotland?
No, Sir, the hon. Gentleman must not take it that there has been any lack of money on the subject. That has not been the case, and the slowness of progress is due to a great many factors which I cannot go into at the present time.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say why it is that the Government charge such a high percentage on money loaned for housing purposes when France only charges 2 per cent. on money borrowed for the same purpose?
Ex-Service Men (Institutional Treat-Ment.)
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what opportunities of institutional treatment are open to an ex-service man when he is recommended by the Ministry of Pensions for treatment at home by his panel doctor and the panel doctor certifies that institutional treatment is necessary.
Where the Ministry of Pensions decide that an ex-service man is not eligible for or does not require such a course of treatment as the Ministry provide, the opportunities of the ex-service man to obtain institutional treatment on the advice of his insurance practitioner are the same as those open to all insured persons. In cases where the condition of an insured person is such as to require treatment not within the scope of the practitioner's obligations under his Terms of Service, it is the duty of the practitioner to advise the insured person as to the steps which should be taken in order to obtain that treatment.
Political Meeting, Glasgow (Police)
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many plainclothes policeman and special officers were present at the meeting in Glasgow in St. Andrew's Hall, presided over by the hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood) and addressed by the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton), on 8th July, 1928: and for what purpose they were present.
At the meeting referred to by the hon. Member 11 detective officers were present, but no plain-clothes policemen. I understand that it is the practice for police officers to be present at all large political meetings in Glasgow. On this occasion their presence was considered to be particularly desirable because information had been received that an organised attempt was to be made to obstruct the proceedings at the meeting. The officers were present to detect the persons responsible for any outbreak of disorder that might take place.
Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us if those responsible for the meeting made any application for the presence of such officers, and whether at Conservative gatherings similar steps are taken?
I am not aware that any application was made by those responsible for the meeting, and my information is that at all meetings, irrespective of party, there are always police present.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether these detectives were in plain clothes or whether they were disguised in any way?
I have said in answer to the question that there were 11 detective officers present and no plainclothes policemen.
Were the detectives in plain clothes? May I press for an answer?
I do not know, but, if the hon. and gallant Gentleman desires the information, he had better put the question down.
Will the right hon. Gentleman let me know?
The hon. and gallant Gentleman has had a very full answer.
Unemployment
North-Eastern Area
asked the Prime Minister whether he has received a request from the town clerk at Gates-head, on behalf of a conference of local authorities, to meet a deputation for the purpose of laying before him the serious position arising from unemployment in the north-eastern area and whether he proposes to meet this deputation and on what date?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer recently received a deputation representing the local authorities and industries of the North-East Coast which fully placed before him the situation in that area. My right hon. Friend promised to bring the views of the deputation to the notice of the Government, which he has done. As the Chancellor of the Exchequer stated in reply to the hon. Member for Pontypool (Mr. T. Griffiths) on the 12th instant in reference to similar representations from South Wales, the Government are not yet in a position to give any further information to the House, but they hope to be able to do so before the end of the Session. In all the circumstances, I hardly think it is necessary for me to receive a further deputation from the north-eastern area.
Is there not some mistake? Was not the deputation which the Chancellor of the Exchequer received altogether different from this. That was a deputation of employers of labour, whereas this is a deputation representing local authorities; and, seeing the importance of this deputation, will he not spare half an hour to meet them?
May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman is not aware that the deputation which the Chancellor of the Exchequer met was of representatives called personally by the Mayor of Newcastle-on-Tyne and not a deputation of local authorities at all? These local authorities which are faced with ever-increasing poverty have certain proposals to make to him.
Is it not the fact that the deputation referred to was representative of every grade and section of the North-East Coast?
I have not the least objection to spending time with this deputation, but other deputations which have been received, together with reports sent to various Government Departments, gave us full knowledge as to the state of things; and we are investigating it now. I hardly think it would be worth the expenditure of money and time to receive any further deputation on this point on which we are already fully informed.
Does not the Prime Minister consider that it would be a matter of courtesy to a representative deputation like this to receive them?
I really think it is an unnecessary expenditure of money to bring the deputation to London when already these matters have been brought to our notice by representatives from that district, and when we are really familiar with the circumstances.
Does the Prime Minister mean to tell the House that if there were tens of thousands of his own class starving, as there are tens of thousands of the working classes starving, he would not meet them?
Industrial Transference Board (Report)
asked the Prime Minister the reason for the delay in placing the Report of the Industrial Transference Board in the hands of Members; and whether he can give the House the assurance that it will be in the Vote Office this week?
The Report is under the consideration of the Government, and it is hoped to publish it shortly.
May I ask how much longer this Report is to be under consideration?
It is a big Report, and I am anxious to release it at the earliest possible moment. I cannot name a date, but I will do all that I can to expedite it.
May I recall to the right hon. Member's mind the fact that he said that he hoped there would be an opportunity of discussing this Report before the vacation, and, therefore, is it not desirable that hon. Members should have it in their possession as soon as possible so that they may be able to study it?
I entirely agree with that, and that is why I am anxious to publish it as soon as possible. I hope that we shall have the pleasure of sitting together for nearly three weeks.
Is there any hope of the Government acting on the Report?
Overseas Betting Bill
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if it is proposed to abandon the Overseas Betting Bill for this Session; and how much money is estimated to have been lost to the Treasury since 1926 by it not becoming law?
It is the intention of the Government to introduce the Betting Overseas (Prohibition) Bill this Session and to proceed with it in so far as the arrangements of the House permit. It is not possible to frame any estimate in reply to the second part of the question.
Totalisator Returns, New Zealand
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has any figures showing the amount of money passing through the totalisators in the Dominion of New Zealand in any one year and how much is spent in this way, per head of the population, in that Dominion?
The amount of money passed through the totalisators in New Zealand in the year ended 31st July, 1927 (the latest for which information is available) was £7,553,000, which represented approximately £5 7s. per head of the population.
Is it not the fact that the totalisator is working very satisfactorily in New Zealand?
Has it increased, or decreased, the amount of betting in Australia and New Zealand?
Does it not seem to indicate that a large amount of money is spent on betting by the people of New Zealand as a result of the facilities which are given by the totalisator?
I am not a competent judge of that.
Does not the amount vary considerably from year to year, and is not the totalisator proving an excellent barometer of the trade of New Zealand?
Petrol Duty (Invalids' Chairs)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will consider freeing from taxation small engines used for propelling invalid's chairs and the driving licence for them, which are used in the main by injured workmen?
I have been asked to answer this question. The annual tax on motor-propelled invalid chairs is 5s., and I do not think there is any ground for remitting this nominal registration fee. The same considerations apply to the driver's licence, the annual charge for which is also 5s.
As the amount is extremely small, and the people who use these invalid chairs are only in receipt of a few shillings a week compensation, surely the Government can better afford to give up this small sum than the people are able to pay it?
It is certainly a small amount, but I do not think it is an unfair duty.
Pentonville Prison (Ex-Warder R. Bailey)
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he can reconsider the case of ex-Warder R. Bailey, formerly of Pentonville Prison, seeing that he responded to the order and did his duty in a reestablished capacity; and whether he will exercise his discretionary power of pensioning men who may serve over the normal pension limit?
This case was carefully considered on several occasions by my predecessor. I am sending the hon. Member copies of the answers which he gave on the 13th July, 1926, to the hon. Member for the Edge Hill Division of Liverpool (Mr. Hayes) and on the 14th April, 1927, to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for the Isle of Wight (Captain Macdonald). I have considered the case afresh and regret that I cannot depart from the decision reached.
Is it not the fact that this man obeyed an urgent call to duty, and that he is suffering because of that—his pension is withheld. Is it not the fact that in 1920 there were five male warders over 60 years of age all of whom were receiving pensions?
I took an opportunity to study this case very carefully on Saturday. I am aware of all the circumstances to which the hon. Member refers, but I see nothing in the files relating to this case which would enable me to alter the decision already reached.
Is it reasonable or fair that because a man obeys a call to duty he is to be penalised by having his pension withheld?
It is not for me to pass an opinion on the matter. On the facts as I see them, and I have looked through the files, very carefully, I see nothing to justify me in altering my decision.
Income Tax
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether any consideration is given in the assessment for Income Tax purposes upon the income of an unmarried person living at home whose income has been taken into previous consideration by the Employment Exchange officials in rejecting the claim of a brother who was seeking unemployment benefit under the Act of 1925: and whether he will instruct the surveyor of taxes to have regard to the claim for abatements made in such circumstances?
The income Tax Acts do not authorise an allowance to be given to an unmarried person in respect of a brother unless the brother is either a child in the custody of and maintained by the taxpayer or a person who is incapacitated by old age or infirmity. In the circumstances the hon. Member will appreciate that instructions as suggested in the question cannot be issued.
Can the Financial Secretary say what assistance this individual, who is maintaining his brother, can have in these circumstances?
Transport
Road Accidents, Deptford
asked the Minister of Transport whether he has received representations from the Deptford Borough Council regarding the increasing number of road accidents occurring in that district, and suggesting that drivers of vehicles should be prohibited from passing on the near side of stationary tramcars when the latter are setting down or taking up passengers; whether the council's suggestion has been considered; and, if so, with what result?
A letter was recently received from the Deptford Borough Council to the effect that the council were in agreement with the views of the Deptford Labour party, who had made representations to me on this subject. The Deptford Labour party were informed that I was not satisfied, under the traffic conditions at present prevailing, that legislation of the character suggested is necessary or desirable, as, in my opinion, the existing powers under the Motor Car Act, 1903, dealing with dangerous driving should be sufficient to enable the police to deal with the matter. It was also pointed out that several attempts had been made in recent years by local authorities in England to obtain powers in a local Act to make a by-law of the character proposed, and that in every case Parliament had refused to confer the power. I caused a copy of this reply to be sent to the Deptford Borough Council.
If other vehicles were drawn out on to the off-side, would it not increase the difficulty, and make the danger much greater?
Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that owing to the increase of accidents on thoroughfares there is a real need for fresh legislation?
No. I am in agreement with the views which Parliament has expressed on this matter.
May I ask whether this is not a case of the great danger to the public of tramways in crowded thoroughfares, and that the Deptford Town Council have not been up-to-date in replacing them with other vehicles?
Is the Minister not aware that this Parliament, which has expressed its opinion on this matter, is predominantly a Parliament of motorists and not of pedestrians?
Canal and Railway Bridges
asked the Minister of. Transport whether, considering that the Bridges Bill has been dropped, he proposes before the close of the present Session to make any statement of policy in regard to the reconstruction of canal and railway bridges?
I hope that an early opportunity may present itself for the introduction of legislation on the lines of the Bridges Bill to which the hon. Member refers.
:: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in certain parts of the country, such as the Black Country, where there is a network of canals, several local authorities are threatened with injunctions and are in a very difficult position, and will he try to give them the utmost assistance?
I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman, but this is a matter that requires legislation, and the hon. Gentleman knows as well as I do the difficulty of getting legislation through in the closing years of a Parliament.
Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that the Joint Select Committee which dealt with the Railway (Road Transport) Bills, reported that the passing of the Bridges Bill was urgent?
I do not know if they dealt specifically with the Bridges Bill, but they dealt with road legislation, and said that it was urgent.
Development and Road Improvement Funds Act
asked the Minister of Transport whether the powers of Section 11 (1) of the Development and Road Improvement Funds Act, 1909, have in any case been exercised; and, if so, in respect of what roads?
Except in certain eases where it has been necessary to purchase surplus land in order to avoid claims for severance, I have not seen occasion to invoke my powers under this Section.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that, if this were carried out, it would give his Department some voice as to what types of buildings should be erected?
This is a matter upon which it has been my practice, almost invariably, to consult the Chief Valuer. So far, the Chief Valuer has advised me that the recoupment would be so small or would be so long delayed that I do not think it would be worth while to set up a special land purchase department to deal with the matter.
Does not the Minister realise that the country is being ruined by the appalling buildings which are being put up everywhere.
My hon. Friend is under a misapprehension. These powers are not. given to me in order to preserve the amenities of the countryside, which I would like to see preserved, but in order to enable me to get back some of the cost.
One-Way Traffic, London
asked the Minister of Transport in what places in the Metropolitan area is the one-way traffic system now in operation?
As the answer is a long one, I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the answer:
The "one-way" traffic system is at present in operation in the whole or parts of the following streets or places in the Metropolitan area:
Parliament Square.
Grosvenor Gardens, Victoria.
Queen Victoria Memorial.
Hyde Park Corner.
The following streets off Piccadilly:
Bennet Street.
Arlington Street.
Dover Street.
Albemarle Street.
Piccadilly Circus.
Haymarket.
Regent Street (the lower portion).
Charles Street.
Pall Mall.
Trafalgar Square, including:
Cockspur Street.
Pall Mall East.
Duncannon Street.
The Strand (between Duncannon Street and Trafalgar Square).
Long Acre.
Upper St. Martin's Lane.
Great St. Andrew Street.
Little St. Andrew Street.
Aldwych.
Marble Arch.
Church Street and the Mall, Notting Hill.
Albert Gate, Knightsbridge.
Knightsbridge (junction with Brompton Road and Sloane Square).
Sloane Square.
King Street, The Grove and Beacon Road, Hammersmith Broadway.
Finchley Road, Avenue Road and Adelaide Road, Swiss Cottage.
Chapel Street, St. Marylebone.
Mare Street, Hackney.
Bow Road, Poplar (by St. Mary's Church).
High Road, Lee Green.
Montpelier Vale, Blackheath.
The Triangle, East Sheen.
The Triangle, Palmers Green.
Eleanor Cross, Waltham Cross.
In the City of London:
Queen Victoria Street.
Cannon Street.
Queen Street.
Poultry.
Ferry Lane, Tottenham
asked the Minister of Transport if he is yet in a position to state that the improvements needed at Ferry Lane, Tottenham, will shortly be carried out?
This matter, to which the hon. Member has previously drawn my attention, has long been the subject of negotiation and I am glad to inform him that agreement has now been reached between the several authorities concerned and particulars of the proposed improvement have been submitted to me by the Middlesex County Council. So soon as these have been fully examined. I expect to be able to make an offer of assistance from the Road Fund, and I hope that the local authorities will then proceed to carry out the scheme.
Is there any chance of the scheme being started before the coming winter?
I think that depends upon the expedition of the Middlesex County Council and my Department. I will endeavour to speed up both.
Seeing that the local authorities are in agreement and that the matter has now reached the Minister's Department., will he try to get the work put in hand as rapidly as possible, because accidents are still of frequent occurrence at this place?
I know the place, and I realise that the work is urgently necessary.
Roads, Devon
asked the Minister of Transport the number of miles of classified and unclassified roads in the county of Devon?
The mileages of classified and unclassified roads in the county of Devon as at 1st April, 192S, were as follow:
Road Grants
asked the Minister of Transport how many county councils and other local authorities have forwarded him resolutions requesting that the percentage of grants for the upkeep of roads may be increased; and whether he proposes to take any action in the matter?
I have received a large number of resolutions and representations from individual local authorities and from associations of local authorities in the sense indicated in my hon. Friend's question and a deputation on the subject was received by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and myself on 3rd April last. The proposals of the Government for the inclusion of certain grants from the Road Fund in a block grant to county councils and to county boroughs, and for the more equitable distribution of the burden of highway maintenance in county districts, have already been announced. It is not proposed to make any change in the percentages of grants towards the cost of maintenance of highways for the current financial year.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these road rates constitute a very heavy burden on the local authorities and that there is a. very strong feeling in the country that a, larger grant should be made: and is he prepared to give consideration to this matter?
We are spending very little money indeed on new roads. As I say, it is not proposed to increase the percentages of grants.
When does the Minister propose to spend some of the money which he has reserved for the purposes of renewal?
asked the Minister of Transport the amount of money paid from the Road Fund for the purposes of road maintenance and construction in the first six months of the current year and in the three previous periods of six months?
As the answer contains a number of figures, I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the answer:
The actual payments from the Road Fund towards the cost of road maintenance, improvement and construction in the periods specified in the question were as follows (to the nearest £1,000):
Six months ending—
£ 30th June, 1928 7,718,000 31st December, 1927 10,714,000 30th June, 1927 7,682,000 31st December, 1926 9,406,000
Post Office
New Telephone Exchange, Wood Street
asked the Postmaster-General when it is expected that the new telephone exchange in Wood Street, Cheapside, will be completed; how long it has taken to build; what will be its total cost for land and buildings; and what will be the cost per unit operated therefrom on completion?
The new telephone exchange in Wood Street is designed to accommodate three complete automatic units, which will have a capacity of about 30,000 subscribers' lines. Two units are now being installed and will, it is hoped, be opened for service during the summer of 1929. The building work occupied about three years. The total cost of the site and building was £256,000. I cannot say at present what the final cost of installing the equipment will be.
How does the Postmaster-General account for the very long time taken to complete this exchange?
The building operations commenced in March, 1925, and have just been completed. I do not think it is an unreasonable time.
Retired Telephone Servant, Dundee (Gratuity)
asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that Mr. W. P. Finlayson, of 50, Gellatly Street, Dundee, after having been in the telephone service for 30 years, has now been discharged from that employment at the age of 62 years with a compassionate gratuity of about £40; and, if so, whether any steps can be taken to improve his situation?
Mr. Finlayson was transferred to the Post Office from the National Telephone Company on 1st January, 1912. He was not an established civil servant, and was not, therefore, eligible on retirement for the award of a pension under the Superannuation Acts. He has received a compassionate gratuity of £43 13s. 4d., the maximum amount for which he is eligible under the Acts in respect of his service to the State, and I regret that I have no power to make any further payment.
In view of the statement which the Postmaster-General submitted last week, showing the profit of £4,000,000 on telephones and the record number of stations, 122,000. established last year in connection with his Department, can he not see that something is done for the men who are being put away, in view of prospective progress?
I have no power under the Act, and any question on that subject ought to be addressed to the Treasury.
But my point is as to the retention of the services of these men.
Mails (Air Transmission)
asked the Postmaster-General whether his attention has been called to experiments carried out by the French with a catapult for launching aircraft from a liner with a view to quickening the transmission of mails at each end of the Atlantic crossing; whether he has examined into the possibility of taking similar action with regard to the carriage of mails by ships across the Atlantic and on other long ocean voyages under mail contract with His Majesty's Government; and, if so, what conclusion has he reached?
I have no information regarding the experiments to which the hon. and gallant Member refers, but I will inquire. I have not examined the possibility of accelerating the transport of mails by the use of aircraft launched from liners; I am somewhat sceptical whether substantial acceleration at a reasonable cost could be so achieved.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many people were sceptical of being able to fly at all, and is it not time that he paid some attention to modern inventions, with a view to hastening the mail services?
:I doubt very much whether the degree of acceleration gained by methods such as this would be sufficient to induce people to pay the extra fees.
Is it not a fact that experiments of this kind have already been started at Father Point, in Canada, up the St. Lawrence River to Montreal?
I have heard something of that sort.
Is it not a fact that the first machine that ever flew in Europe, made by Wilbur Wright, was set off by a catapult?
May I give notice to the Postmaster-General that I will raise this question in the discussion on the mail contact Motion which is at present on the Order Paper?
Foula (Wireless Communication)
asked the Postmaster-General whether the experiments in the establishment of communication by wireless between the island of Foula and the mainland of Shetland for medical service purposes have proved to be successful; and, if so, whether, in view of the need for the improvement of communication, particularly on the ground of public health, between the island of Stroma and the mainland, the Government will consider making similar arrangements for the installation of wireless telephony on this island?
So far as I am aware, no experiments in the establishment of wireless communication between Foula, and the mainland for medical purposes have yet taken place; and the second part of the question does not therefore arise.
But does not the right hon. Gentleman remember that he told me himself more than a year ago that such experiments were then about to be carried out and can he now say when those experiments are going to be carried out?
No; the experiments are not conducted by me. I believe there was some intention on the part of the Scottish Office at that time to conduct such experiments, but in fact I understand that that never materialised.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say if experiments in wireless telephony are being carried out at present at Government stations?
Yes, many.
Telephone Service
asked the Postmaster-General whether the work of the canvassing staff employed to obtain new business for the Post Office telephones is supplemented by press advertising; and, if so, what amount is spent on this form of publicity?
The reply is in the negative.
Bank of England Notes
asked the Postmaster-General whether any instructions have been given to postmasters as to refusing or accepting Bank of England notes when tendered in payment of postal and telegraphic charges?
A Bank of England note is legal tender in England and Wales only when presented in payment of an amount equal to its nominal value or in part payment of a larger sum. Postmasters are, however, instructed that a note must not lie refused on this ground alone if there is no reason to doubt its genuineness and change can conveniently be given.
Deliveries, Oxford
asked the Postmaster-General when it is his intention to restore to the city of Oxford the evening postal delivery of which it has been deprived in recent years, and to secure that there shall be a less interval than 40 hours between the last delivery on Saturday afternoon and the first delivery on Monday morning?
As I have more than once explained to my hon. Friend, there is no prospect of a return to a general delivery on Sundays throughout the country, and there seems to be no valid reason for giving exclusive facilities to the city of Oxford in this respect. As regards the hour of the afternoon delivery on Saturdays, the position of Oxford is in no way dissimilar from that of other cities of like size, and I have no reason to believe that there is any extensive demand for a later delivery than 4 p.m. on Saturdays.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the City of Oxford had an evening delivery for more than 50 years; that it has been deliberately taken away for some reason; that the City of Oxford has doubled in size in that time: that owing to the recent arrangements by which widespreading suburbs for many years have been thrown into it, it is now a town of 70,000 inhabitants, and that, so far from there being any justification for his statement, there is—
Speech!
I was unable to catch the whole of my hon. Friend's question, but, in regard to what I did hear, I can only repeat that, so far as I am aware, there is no general demand from Oxford as a whole for a later delivery on Saturday evening than 4 p.m., by which hour all business in the commercial portion of the city is over.
May I say that the right hon. Gentleman should not speak of Oxford as a "hole"? I think I know the city better than does the right hon. Gentleman.
I can only say that I too have lived in Arcady, and I know the manners and customs of the inhabitants.
Naval and Military Pensions and Grants
Seven Years' Limit
asked the Minister of Pensions if he will make provision for consideration of a claim to pension raider the dispensing warrant in the case of all men suffering from a breakdown of war wounds and who are receiving treatment, but who did not claim a pension within seven years of the termination of their active service as Lid down in the War Pensions Act, 1921, seeing that there can be no doubt in these cases that the disability is due to war service?
asked the Minister of Pensions whether there are any regulations made by his Department enabling an ex-service man to obtain a pension in circumstances where during war service he was wounded and operated upon, and after several years the operation breaks down, rendering him incapable of again following his employment?
Arrangements have for some time been in operation to deal with the class of case referred to, as my right hon. Friend indicated in the answer which he gave the hon. Member for Elland (Mr. Robinson) on 10th February last year. I am sending copies of this answer to both hon. Members.
Artificial Limbs (Renewals)
asked the Minister of Pensions whether his Department accepts in all cases responsibility for the renewal of artificial limbs of men whose war-time disability is recognised: and whether, in that case, he will state the number of replacement limbs which have thus been issued for use?
The renewal of worn out limbs supplied by the Ministry in cases of amputation due to service in the late War is accepted as a liability by the Minister. No record is kept of the total number of limbs issued in replacement, but the bulk of the present issue, namely, about 6,000 in the year, is in respect of such renewals.
Outlawry of War
asked the Prime Minister if he will extend to the United States and other Powers who are parties to the proposed multilateral peace pact an invitation to sign the pact in London?
I have been asked to reply. As the invitation to sign the treaty came to us from the United States Government, I think it will be more courteous to them to await an expression of their views as to the place of signature.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that this would be a graceful way of making amends for the lack of enthusiasm with which this proposal has been treated hitherto by the Government?
At the end of Questions—
I ask leave to make a brief personal explanation in correction of an answer which I gave yesterday. In replying to a supplementary question put by my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle, North (Sir N. Grattan-Doyle), I stated that, whilst the Italian Government might have informed the Government of the United States of their readiness to sign the proposed Treaty for the Renunciation of War, they had not communicated their reply to us. Later in the day I learned that His Excellency the Italian Ambassador had, in fact, left a copy of the Italian reply at the Foreign Office that morning, but it did not reach my hands till after the question was answered. I regret the incompleteness of my information at the time when the question was put.
Navy and Army Expenditure, 1926–27
Resolved, That this House will, Tomorrow, resolve itself into a Committee to consider the surpluses and deficits upon Navy and Army Grants for 1926-27 and the application of surpluses to meet Expenditure not provided for in the Grants for that year.—[ Commander Eyres Monsell. ]
Ordered, That the Appropriation Accounts for the Navy and Army Departments, which were presented upon the 20th February and 6th March last, respectively, be referred to the committee.—[ commander Eyres Monsell. ]
New Member Sworn
Arthur William Longbottom, Esquire, for the Borough of Halifax.
Selection (Standing Committees)
Standing Committee A
Mr. William Nicholson reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee A: Sir George Hamilton; and had appointed in substitution: Commander Southby.
Mr. William Nicholson further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following Ten Members to Standing Committee A (in respect of the Rag Flock Act (1911) Amendment Bill): Mr. Ernest Brown, Lieut.-Colonel Fremantle, Captain Gunston, Mr. Mackinder, Sir Frank Nelson, Mr. Purcell, Mr. Geoffrey Shaw, Sir Francis Watson, Mr. Windsor, and Sir Kingsley Wood.
Standing Committee C
Mr. William Nicholson further reported from the Committee: That they had added the following Ten Members to Standing Committee C (in respect of the Merchant Shipping (Line-Throwing Appliance) Bill): Mr. Ammon, Lord Apsley, Sir Herbert Cayzer, Sir Burton Chadwick, Captain Fanshawe, Mr. Greenwood, Mr. William Jones, Mr. Sliinwell, Mr. Tinne, and Mr. Herbert Williams.
Scottish Standing Committee
Mr. William Nicholson further reported from the Committee: That they had discharged the following Member from the Standing Committee on Scottish Bills (added in respect of the Educational Endowments (Scotland) Bill [ Lords ]): Major Steel: and had appointed in substitution: Sir Charles Oman.
Reports to lie upon the Table.
Charmen's Panel
Mr. William Nicholson reported from the Chairmen's Panel; That they had appointed Major Sir Richard Barnett to act as Chairman of Standing Committee A (in respect of the Rag Flock Act (1911) Amendment Bill).
Report to lie upon the Table.
CHILD DESTRUCTION BILL [Lords]
Read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Thursday, and to be printed. [Bill 178.]
Bills Reported
Registration (Births, Deaths, and Marriages) Bill,
Reported, with Amendments, from Standing Committee A.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed.
Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be taken into consideration upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 177.]
BRIDGWATER CORPORATION BILL [Lords]
Reported, with Amendments, from the Local Legislation Committee (Section B); Report to lie upon the Table, and to he printed.
BRADFORD CORPORATION BILL [Lords]
Reported, with Amendments, from the Local Legislation Committee (Section B); Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Orders of the Day
Rating and Valuation (Apportionment) Bill
[6TH ALLOTTED DAY.]
As amended, further considered.
CLAUSE 5.—(Definition of freight-transport hereditaments)
The first two Amendments on the Paper in the names of the hon. Member for Sunderland (Mr. Luke Thompson) and other hon. Members—in page 5, line 31, at the end, to insert the words:
"(iii) a railway or tramway attached to an industrial hereditament for purposes ancillary thereto and used primarily for the transport of minerals and/or produce from the mine or factory to a railway, canal, dock, or shipping place,"
and in line 32, after the word "wholly," to insert the words "as a shipping place for minerals"—have already been covered.
I beg to move, in page 5, line 38, after the word "undertaking," to insert the words "being an undertaking."
This is purely a drafting Amendment, the intention being, if possible, to make it clear beyond dispute that in the case of a hereditament used for dock purposes as part of a dock undertaking, such as the undertaking of the Port of London Authority, it is the business of the undertaking as a whole and not the business done at each hereditament comprised in that undertaking which is to be looked at in order to see whether it is concerned to a substantial extent with the shipping or unshipping of merchandise. If, as in the case of the Port of London, it is clear that a substantial proportion of the business of the undertaking is concerned with merchandise, it is therefore not necessary to look specially at the business done at, for example, Tilbury landing stage.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to let us know exactly what is meant by an undertaking in one particular? Does he intend the word "undertaking"—we heard nothing on this side of his speech in moving the Amendment—to cover the cases of shipping companies which own or rent their own docking and transit sheds, or who have facilities on lease in docking and transit sheds? The Clause is curiously drafted, and we would like to know if it will cover the cases of those transit sheds which are held under lease by shipping companies running regular services.
That point is covered by an Amendment in my name—in page 7, line 8, at the end, to insert the words:
"'Dock undertaking' means an undertaking carried on by a dock authority, but also includes any other undertaking comprising as part thereof a dock in so far only as its business is carried on at and in connection with that dock:
'Dock authority' means any person or body of persons, whether incorporated or not, who are authorised to construct or are owners or lessees of any dock authorised by or under any Act."
Would that cover the case I mentioned?
Yes. I understand that it will.
I am not sure whether it will cover a staith as applied to a private railway undertaking. In connection with private railways attached to collieries, the termination is at the place of shipment or staith on the river or the dock. Under the definition of a mine, we have the area of a private railway circumscribed by a certain position in the new Clause which has been inserted, and the line is continuous right away to the river where the coals are shipped. Will this Amendment include the staiths from which the coals are shipped?
I am not quite certain whether I have correctly apprehended the hon. Member's point. If he means would the definition of mineral railway include the staith, where the staith is the termination of that railway, the answer is in the affirmative.
Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move, in page 5, line 40, at the end, to insert the words "not belonging to or intended for the use of the undertakers."
This is intended to make it clear that docks or wharves, in order to be de-rated as freight transport hereditaments, must be used substantially for public transit, and not merely for private purposes.
These words do not make things very much clearer. The wording of paragraph (c) will still be obscure. It will read something like this: c ), would such a wharf be a freight-transport hereditament? The wharf is used substantially by the undertaking for supplying only oil that they sell to ships, and therefore it is not certain that the relief will be passed on. That is the case of an oil wharf which supplies the oil of only one company, but take the case of an oil wharf that supplies oil for more than one company. Is that to he regarded as for general and public use, and, if so, will it be relieved like the railway undertakings?
I raised that point on the Committee stage, and the right hon. Gentleman, who twitted me for not understanding the Bill, admitted that I had caught him, and he asked me for time to consider it. Has he gone into the matter? The other matter I want to raise for reasons of clarification is the case of municipal docks. Will they be freight-transport hereditaments or will they count as public utility undertakings? I would like that matter cleared up. I would also like to point out that there are certain wharves in certain seaports that are the property of companies—wharfingers or manufacturers—and which are used by leave by other shippers. What will be their position? In other words, if a wharf is owned and used exclusively by one firm for shipping and unshipping their raw material, they get no relief, but if, for example, every now and then they allow other goods to be landed there for payment, do they get relief? It is true that the vague word "substantial" comes in, but who is to define substantiality? We should have this matter cleared up before we leave this question, which is so tremendously important to a nation which has. still the greatest mercantile marine in the world, in spite of the present Government having been in office all these years, a mercantile marine which is still absolutely dependent on its export and import trade for its commercial prosperity, and I respectfully invite the right hon. Gentleman to explain the matter a little further.
Suppose a shipping company leases a wharf or part of a dock, and proposes to use it for shipping coal—they may ship coal for bunkering or for transport abroad—would that shipping company in either case get relief under this definition?
4.0 p.m.
Under the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health, to insert in page 7, line 8, the definitions of "dock undertaking" and "dock authority," are wharfingers included in the benefits given by this Bill? As I read it, a dock includes "any harbour, wharf, pier, or jetty," and "dock undertaking" is to include "an undertaking carried on by a dock authority," that is a statutory authority. "Dock undertaking" also includes "any other undertaking comprising as part thereof a dock." Do the limiting words which my right hon. Friend has just moved exclude the owner of wharves, say, on the Thames whose wharves are used for public purposes, for goods coming and goods going? Are those wharfingers excluded by the limiting words, " not belonging to or intended for the use of the undertakers."?
The hon. and gallant Member opposite said he had caught me out on previous occasions, and it is quite true that anyone who is able to answer all the questions which the hon. and gallant Member puts must certainly be very well equipped with information. While one has clear ideas of what one is trying to do in this Bill, it is possible to bring up a variety of cases, and it may not be apparent to anyone, especially if he has not given prolonged consideration to the Clause, whether a set of given conditions brings a wharf or dock within the meaning of the Clause or not. I will try, however, to answer the questions put by the hon. and gallant Member and other hon. Members. I think I may say, first of all, that surely there is no obscurity about the meanings of the words which my right hon. Friend has proposed to insert in this Clause. There are two kinds of docks for the purposes of the Bill. There is the dock which is owned by a party who uses that dock solely for the purpose of his own business. It is owned by a private individual or by a company which uses that dock solely for his or its own purposes. Then there is the case of the dock which may be owned by a private individual, but which is used for public traffic: There is a third case, where the dock is sometimes used for one purpose and sometimes for the other. The words which my right hon. Friend has moved to put in are intended to exclude the case of the firm or person owning a dock and using it entirely for the purpose of its or his own business Therefore, the answer to the first question of the hon. and gallant Member is that the owners of the wharf or dock which is used solely for the purpose of unshipping or unloading their own oil is excluded from the purview of the Bill.
Then comes the case of the oil company which owns a wharf, but which uses it sometimes for unshipping its own oil and sometimes that of other companies. That is, I understand, the second case put by the hon. and gallant Gentleman. It is not a case for which one can lay down a general rule which can put all into one category or the other, because it must be dependent on the amount of other business done by the private owner of the wharf, and those words, to which the hon. and gallant Gentleman has drawn attention, say that, in order that the property may come in for de-rating, a "substantial proportion of the volume of business" must be "concerned with the shipping and unshipping of merchandise" for other people than the owner. Therefore, the answer to that question is, that it will depend on the circumstances of the case, whether, as a matter of fact, a substantial amount of business is done for other companies or not. The case of municipal docks is, of course, different. Those are clearly covered by the definition of "dock undertaking." which will be found later on in an Amendment on the Paper.
Then there is the question of docks belonging to wharfingers which are sometimes used by other people. I do not quite know the exact circumstances the hon. and gallant Member has in mind, but, in any case, the question as to whether they would come within the purview of the Bill would depend upon what other business was done. Then the hon. and gallant Member asks, who will decide these cases? Of course, in the first instance, they have to be decided by the rating authority, and, if there is dissatisfaction with the decision of the rating authority, the case goes to the assessment committee. It would be absurd, I think, to take exception to a procedure of that kind which is, after all, a procedure that is quite common, and is used in all matters of valuation.
I come to the question as to the case of the shipping company which owns a wharf and uses it for exporting coal or shipping coal. The hon. and gallant Gentleman said that it might be used for two purposes. It might be used for bunkering or for exporting to some other place. I understand that those are two different categories. The case where a wharf is used for bunkering a ship is clearly a case where it is being used for merchandise "belonging to or intended for the use of the undertakers." On the other hand, if it is coal that is being sent abroad, that, again, will depend, I think, on who is the owner of the coal. The final decision in the case of any particular wharf must depend on the circumstances in which that wharf is used, and the test will be whether a substantial proportion of the business is for public purposes or not. Finally, my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Ripon (Major Hills) asked me about the case of wharfingers who work traffic on the Thames, for example.
Non-statutory.
Non-statutory. There, again, they would come in under the definition of "dock undertaking." The wharfinger is in this case the owner of a private wharf in that sense, but if it is not used solely for the purpose of shipping or unshipping merchandise belonging to the wharfinger, it is therefore to some extent used for public traffic. Therefore, a case of that kind would certainly be covered by the Bill, and come in for de-rating.
I think the speech of the Minister shows that he does not in the least, understand the nature of the alarm which will arise in every dock and harbour board in England, Wales and Scotland. What is the attitude of those persons who are engaged in the commerce of our country? I can sum up their attitude in five or six words, in a letter written by the Secretary of the Dock and Harbour Boards Association and circulated to certain Members of Parliament. He says there are: business that will have to be considered. We have now a new definition as to the meaning of a dock or wharf, and that the apportionment will be very difficult goes without saying. The business will be a laborious business occupying the whole attention of the port officials for some time; but does the Minister realise that when they have put in their claim, they are only at the beginning of their task?
Let me take the case of the district I know best, and which I represent on the County Council—Poplar. Every scrap of property within the scope of the East and West India Docks and other docks which is not de-rated will be so much gain to the income of that authority. Does anyone suppose that with its income at stake, and wits all the information at its disposal, the Borough Council of Poplar will not fight the Port authority foot by foot over all its properties, contesting every claim to de-rating for the sake of having more income in the municipal coffers I know they will do it, and the Port of London Authority know they will do it, foot by foot, step by step to the Assessment Committee. The High Court, and even the Rouse of Lords, and they will not be legal questions in the main, but will turn on facts, the infinite variety of facts offering fresh ground for debate, and also each change the Port makes in the conduct of its business.
Then there is the Borough of Bermondsey, which will do exactly the same thing with regard to the Surrey Docks. Does anyone think that in the case of the Canning Town and Silver-town docks, West Ham, desperately poverty-stricken, will not fight in the same way? I have no knowledge of the Town Council of Liverpool, but no doubt it will be the same there. Go further North. With the proverbial tenacity of the Scottish character, the Clyde or the Glasgow authorities will fight for their income, and the mere Southerner shrinks to think what the burgesses of Aberdeen will do. I have been connected with Poplar. There have been furious fights with the Port of London on the question of valuation, the biggest one of which has only just concluded. I have learnt very well to know that any interference with the business of the Port is very bad for employment indeed, and it is a particularly vicious thing that the local authorities and the dock and harbour boards should be perpetually at loggerheads over questions of rating. This is the reason why these great bodies are so much against, not the Government but the system in this Bill. The Government are giving a large sum of money to the docks, and those business men, like other business men, do not object very much to that, but it is this method, this elaborate system of de-rating and handing back money, which has roused the business interest of this country, not against the Chancellor of the Exchequer but against the Minister of Health's methods.
I do ask the Minister whether he will not, at this eleventh hour, agree to some simple fashion of dealing with the whole of the buildings within the dock curtilage by one rule. Supposing that after all this examination bas been gone through the Port of London Authority can claim relief of £200,000 a year, which may be about the figure—that is equivalent to three-quarters of the rates on the property which is to be de-rated. How much more simple it would be if that estimate were made and the Minister then said "£200,000 is, say, 60 per cent. of your total rates. We will de-rate everything within the dock curtilage to that extent." There is no magic about it. If the dock authorities get as much money by a simpler plan it will be more satisfactory to them. Let us suppose that £200,000 is three-quarters of the rates of the property which can claim relief, and let us suppose that is 60 per cent. of the whole rateable value of the Port of London. What a blessing it would be for everybody if everything that was in the dock curtilage could be de-rated to the extent of 60 per cent. instead of de-rating 75 per cent. of particular properties within the docks. I am not in favour of subsidies, but if subsidies are to be given I want them to be given in a way which will not upset the whole business in East London. If you were to de-rate everything within the dock curtilage at a lower figure, corresponding to the increased amount of the rateable property you were dealing with you would then avoid this never-ending vista of litigation with every local authority in whose area dock property is situated. I do entreat the Minister to think about this.
On this Amendment?
To think about it at any time. If you want to give money to the docks, why not vote it to them in Parliament and give it to them and ask them to reduce freights, and so save all this business of valuations, all this chopping up of the business of the docks, all this unnecessary complication? But if the Minister is wedded or pledged to his system of de-rating, I ask him to consider whether what I have suggested would not be a far more sensible way of attaining his aim, whether it would not dispose of the general and unanimous opposition of the great commercial interests, and whether it would not relieve Bermondsey, Deptford, Poplar, West Ham and all the rest of the local authorities all the way down to Tilbury of the complicated and miserable business of spending the ratepayers' money in disputing the correct valuation of the Port of London Authority undertaking.
I wish to add a word to what the hon. Lady has so admirably said.
I take it that the hon. Lady was speaking, not on this Amendment, but on the Amendment that was standing in her name?
I was speaking, mostly, on the word "substantially," which has been thrown in as a gratuitous and unexpected stumbling block by the Minister, and I illustrated it by reference to these scraps of garages and offices and so on.
I wish to speak on this Amendment because there are other points to be raised on future Amendments. The Minister must not conceive that the points which have been put on this Clause 5 have been put from any political point of view. They have been put from the hard business point of view. Each time points have been advanced, not merely from this side of the House but from his own side of the House, the Minister has made some attempt to meet the points. We gladly concede that, and we admit that the Clause as it will be amended will be an improvement on the original drafting, but we are not yet satisfied. I saw the Parliamentary Secretary smiling just now when the hon. Lady was dealing with the views of the dock authorities on simplification. I assure him that that is how the dock authorities feel. Let me read an extract from a letter which shows that to be the case:
"The Amendments seek to simplify the working of the Bill in the hope that litigation will be saved. The Dock Association appreciate the Government's intention to place money in the hands of the respective dock authorities which they can utilise for the benefit of trade. They do, however, feel and have felt from the first, that money can be and should be placed at their disposal in such a way as will not involve long and complicated accounts and inquiries to ascertain what part of the undertakings are to be derated, and this preliminary inquiry, which costs both time and money, to dispose of questions with the rating authorities which will arise as to whether the respective dock authorities have correctly interpreted the meaning of the Act."
I would like to point out in this connection that there is a difference of opinion between the two right hon. Gentlemen. I have given some attention to the OFFICIAL REPORT, and I find there is a difference of opinion with regard to "substantially" or "primarily." If the right hon. Gentleman objects to that statement I will give the reference. The Parliamentary Secretary seems to think that the interpretation of "primarily" will depend upon a matter of fact, but the Minister did not say that. According to the OFFICIAL REPORT the Minister seems to think that the interpretation will be a matter of law and not of fact. Therefore, I am justified in saying there is a difference of opinion. On 4th July, in column 1436 of the OFFICIAL REPORT the Parliamentary Secretary said that what "primary" meant was a question of fact, and he did not think there would be much difficulty in assessment committees coming to a conclusion. In his Second Reading speech the Minister appeared to think that the interpretation was one not of fact but of law, because in that speech, in column 189 of the Report of 6th June he said:
"If the claimant is dissatisfied with the decision of the Assessment Committee 'he can
take it to Quarter Sessions … and then to a higher Court."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th June, 1928; col. 189, Vol. 218.]
The Minister must be aware that you can only take rating cases to the higher courts on a question of law and not of fact. I am sorry to delay the House, but I would urge the Minister, even at this late stage, to take the dock authorities into consultation—really to take them into consultation. I am quite aware that he is himself rather at a disadvantage in this matter, because the negotiations are not carried on with his Department but with the Ministry of Transport, and I am surprised that the Minister of Transport has not seen fit to be here at any stage of this Clause, though he knows it affects his Department. I do beg the Minister of Health to believe that this attitude which we are taking up is not one of mere partisanship, on the part of either those above or those below the Gangway, but that it is a matter of the hard business experience of those who run these great authorities. There are 44 statutory authorities, to say nothing of others, up and down our coast. The interests concerned are as vital as the interests of the four great railway companies, and I am afraid from the drafting of this Clause and of this Amendment that the right hon. Gentleman and his friends in the Department have not given the same weight to the representations made by the dock and harbour authorities as they have to those of the railway companies, as is shown by the concessions made to the railway companies. I hope that at the last minute the right hon. Gentleman will take the dock authorities into consultation and see whether some simpler form, allowing these matters to be settled as a matter of fact and not of law- cannot be drafted in order to give the rating relief desired.
Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
The House divided: Ayes, 252; Noes, 119.
Division No. 290.] AYES [4.25 p.m. Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Astor, Maj. Hn. John J.(Kent, Dover) Bellairs, Commander Carlyon Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Astor, Viscountess Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C M. S. Atholl, Duchess of Bennett, A. J. Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Berry, Sir George Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) Bethel, A. Betterton, Henry B. Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) Blundell, F. N. Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) Preston, William Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Price, Major C. W. M. Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart Hanbury, C. Raine, Sir Walter Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. Harland, A. Ramsden, E. Brass, Captain W. Harney, E. A. Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington) Brassey, Sir Leonard Harrison, G. J. C. Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. Briant, Frank Harlington, Marquess of Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Briggs. J. Harold Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Ropner, Major L. Briscoe, Richard George Haslam, Henry C. Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. Brittain, Sir Harry Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Russell. Alexander West (Tynemouth) Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham) Henn, Sir Sydney H. Rye, F. G. Brown, Brig -Gen. H. C.(Berks, Newb'y) Hills, Major John Waller Samuel. A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Brown, Ernest (Leith) Hoare, Lt -Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S J. G. Sandeman, N. Stewart Buchan, John Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Sanders, Sir Robert A. Bullock, Captain M. Holt, Captain H. P. Sanderson, Sir Frank Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) Sandon, Lord Burman, J. B. Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Burton, Colonel H. W. Hopkins, J. W. W. Savery, S. S. Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) Shepperson, E. W. Campbell, E. T Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down) Carver, Major W. H. Hore-Belisha. Leslie Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Cautley, Sir Henry S. Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Calthness) Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Hudson. Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Skelton, A. N Cayzer. Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.) Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n) Smith-Carington, Neville W Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer Smithers, Waidron Cecil. Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Chamberlain. Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Chapman, Sir S. Jephcott, A. R. Sprot, Sir Alexander Christle, J. A. Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. Churchman, Sir Arthur C Jones, W. N. (Carmarthen) Stanley, Lord (Fylde) Clarry, Reginald George Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) Steel, Major Samuel Strang Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. King, Commodore Henry Douglas Starry-Deans, R. Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Strauss. E A. Cohen, Major J. Brunel Lamb, J. O. Streatfeild, Captain S. R. Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Lane Fox, Col, Rt. Hon. George R. Styles, Captain H. Walter Conway, Sir W. Martin Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Cooper, A. Duff Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Phillip Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Couper, J. B. Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey Tasker, R. Inigo. Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th) Templeton, W. P. Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.) Looker, Herbert William Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) Lougher, Lewis Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Crawfurd, H. E Lowe, Sir Francis William Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro) MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Titchfield, Major the Marquess of Curzon, Captain Viscount Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Tomlinson, R. P. Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Davies, Dr. Vernon Macintyre, Ian Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington. S.) Macmillan, Captain H. Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. Dawson, Sir Philip Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Waddington, R. Dean, Arthur Wellesley Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Wallace, Captain D. E. Edmondson, Major A. J. Macquisten, F. A. Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull) Elliot, Major Walter E. MacRobert, Alexander M. Warner, Brigadler-General W. W. Ellis, R. G. Maitland. A. (Kent, Faversham) Warrender, Sir Victor England, Colonel A. Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- Waterhouse, Captain Charles Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) Makins, Brigadier-General E. Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley) Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) Everard, W. Lindsay Margesson, Captain D. Watts, Sir Thomas Falle, Sir Bertram G. Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Wells, S. R. Fanshawe, Captain G. D. Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple- Fenby, T. D. Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Wiggins, William Martin Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) Forrest, W. Moore Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) Frece, Sir Walter de Moore, Sir Newton J. Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) Gadle, Lieut.-Col. Anthony Morris, R. H. Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) Gates, Percy Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd Nelson, Sir Frank Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Withers, John James Glyn, Major R. G. C. Nicholson, O. (Westminster) Womersley, W. J. Goff, Sir Park Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.) Wood, Rt. Hon Sir Kingsley Gower, Sir Robert Nuttall, Ellis Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak) Grant, Sir J. A. O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh Woodcock, Colonel H. C. Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Oman, Sir Charles William C. Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John Pennefather, Sir John Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. Grotrlan, H. Brent Penny, Frederick George Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich) Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Gunston, Captain D. W. Perkins, Colonel E. K. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Hacking, Douglas H. Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon. Barnstaple) Major Sir George Hennessy and Major Sir William Cope.
NOES. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Attlee, Clement Richard Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Ammon, Charles George Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Baker, Walter John, William (Rhondda, West) Sexton, James Barker, G.(Monmouth, Abertillery) Johnson, Thomas (Dundee) Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Barr, J. Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Shiels, Dr. Drummond Batey, Joseph Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Shinwell, E. Bondfield, Margaret Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Kelly, W. T. Sitch, Charles H Broad, F. A. Kennedy, T. Slesser, Sir Henry H. Buchanan, G. Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhillne) Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel Kirkwood, D. Smith, H. B. Lees- (Kelghley) Charleton, H. C. Lansbury, George Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Cluse, W. S. Lawrence, Susan Snell, Harry Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Lawson, John James Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip Compton, Joseph Lee, F. Stamford, T. W. Connolly, M. Longbottom, A. W. Stephen, Campbell Cove, W. G. Lowth, T. Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Dalton, Hugh Lunn, William Sutton, J. E. Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Mackinder, W. Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Dennison, R. MacLaren Andrew Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Dunnico, H. Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Thurtle, Ernest Gardner,. J. P. Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'hampton) Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. Gibbins, Joseph March, S Viant, S. P. Gillett, George M. Maxton, James Watson, W. M. (Dunfermilne) Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Montague, Frederick Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Greenwood. A. (Nelson and Coine) Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Murnin, H. Wellock, Wilfred Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Naylor, T. E. Westwood, J. Grundy, T. W. Oliver, George Harold Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Palin, John Henry Wilkinson, Ellen C. Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Paling, W. Williams, David (Swansea, E) Hardle, George D. Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly) Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Hayes, John Henry Ponsonby, Arthur Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) Potts, John S. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Purcell, A. A. Windsor, Walter Hirst, G. H. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Wright, W. Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) Hollins, A. Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland) TELLERS FOR THE NOES— Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Saklatvala, Shapurji Mr. A. Barnes and Mr. Whiteley. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Salter, Dr. Alfred
I beg to move, in page 5, to leave out from the beginning of line 41 to the end of line 3, page 6.
I propose to deal very shortly with this Amendment, which is quite a simple one. The matter concerns the question whether the offices belonging to a dock shall or shall not be de-rated. Railway offices are de-rated, but dock offices situated outside the curtilage of the docks are not de-rated. Some docks have their offices inside the curtilage, and therefore some of them will receive a larger relief than others. If we are to have some order and consistency in a Bill which becomes more like a nightmare the longer I study it, I think we can reasonably ask that two forms of transport carrying the same goods shall be treated in the same manner. I ask that dock offices shall be treated as part of the business and de-rated. It must be remembered that the money saved by de-rating the docks, will be handed back again in the form of decreased charges.
I beg to second the Amendment.
I can corroborate a good deal of what the Mover of the Amendment has said about railway and dock offices. Those offices are very closely allied, and deal with the same class of work; therefore, they should have the same de-rating system applied to them.
It is a mistake to assume that we are drawing any distinction between docks and railways. The distinction does not lie between those two forms of undertakings; the distinction made is in conformity with the general principle which runs through the Bill between those offices concerned in the direction and management and within the curtilage of the premises and those which constitute separate buildings outside. In the same way, you have industrial offices which come within the curtilage treated in one way and offices which are away from the premises treated in another way. The North Eastern Railway, where the solicitors' offices are separated from the station, would come under the proviso. It is really important although it seems rather anomalous that a large administrative building like the offices of the Port of London Authority, which has no actual connection with the transport of goods, should not be de-rated. We have only a certain amount of money to deal with, and I think that that money can be better used than in de-rating offices of that sort.
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
The House divided: Ayes, 227; Noes, 140.
Division No. 291] AYES [4.40 p.m. Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Fermoy, Lord O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Oman, Sir Charles William C. Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S Frece, Sir Walter de Pennefather, Sir John Applin, Colonel R. V. K Gadle, Lieut.-Col. Anthony Penny, Frederick George Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Gates, Percy Perkins, Colonel E. K. Astbury, Lieut, Commander F. W. Gilmour, Lt. -Col Rt. Hon. Sir John Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) Goff, Sir Park Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) Atholl, Duchess of Gower, Sir Robert Preston, William Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Grant, Sir J. A. Price, Major C. W. M. Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Radford, E. A. Barnett, Major Sir Richard Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John Raine, Sir Walter Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) Grotrian, H. Brent Ramsden, E. Bellairs, Commander Carlyon Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington) Bean, Sir A. S. (Plymouth. Drake) Gunston, Captain D. W. Rhys. Hon. C. A. U. Bennett, A. J. Hacking, Douglas H. Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Berry, Sir George Hall, Capt. W. D'A (Brecon & Rad.) Ropner, Major L. Bethel, A. Harland, A. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Betterton, Henry B. Harrison, G. J. C. Rye, F. G. Blundell, F. N. Hartington, Marquess of Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Boothby, R. J. G. Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Sandeman, N. Stewart Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Haslam, Henry C. Sanders Sir Robert A. Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart Henderson. Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Sanderson, Sir Frank Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P Sandon, Lord Brass, Captain W. Henn, Sir Sydney H. Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Brassey, Sir Leonard Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. Savery, S. S. Briggs, J. Harold Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Shepperson, E. W. Briscoe, Richard George Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Skelton, A. N. Brittain, Sir Harry Holt, Capt. H. P. Smith-Carington, Neville W. Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Hope. Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) Smithers, Waldron Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C.(Berks, Newb'y) Hopkins, J. W. W. Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Buchan, John Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) Sprot, Sir Alexander Buckingham. Sir H. Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. Bullock, Captain M. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney. N.) Stanley. Lord (Fylde) Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan Hudson. R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) Steel, Major Samuel Strang Burman, J. B. Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer Storry-Deans, R. Burton, Colonel H. W. Huro, Percy A Streatfeild, Captain S. R. Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Iveagh, Countess of Styles, Capta'n H. Walter Campbell, E T. Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Carver, Major W. H. Jephcott, A. R. Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Cautley, Sir Henry S. Kennedym, A. R. (Preston) Tasker, R. Inigo. Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) King, Commodore Henry Douglas Templeton. W. P. Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Kinloch Cooke, Sir Clement Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Lamb, J. O Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Titchfield, Major the Marquess of Chapman, Sir S. Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Christie, J. A. Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough Churchman, Sir Arthur C. Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. Clarry, Reginald George Locker-Lampson, Com. O.(Handsw'th) Waddington, R. Cochrane, Commander Hon A. D Looker, Herbert William Ward, Lt. -Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George Laugher, Lewis Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. Cohen, Major J. Brunel Lowe, Sir Francis William Warrender, Sir Victor Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Waterhouse, Captain Charles Conway, Sir W. Martin MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley) Cooper, A. Duff Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) Cope, Major Sir William Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) Watts, Sir Thomas Couper, J. B. Macintyre, Ian Wells, S. R. Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington. N.) Macmillan, Captain H. White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple- Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) Macnanghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro) Macquisten, F. A. Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) Curzon, Captain Viscount MacRobert. Alexander M. Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) Davies. Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) Makins, Brigadier-General E. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Davies, Dr. Vernon Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Wolmer, Viscount Davison, Sir Philip Mitchell. S. (Lanark, Lanark) Womersley, W. J. Dean, Arthur Wellesley Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley Dixey, A. C. Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Wood, Sir S. Edmondson, Major A. J. Moore, Sir Newton J. Woodcock, Colonel H. C. Elliot, Major Walter E. Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Ellis, R. G. Nelson, Sir Frank Yerburch, Major Robert D T. Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston s -M) Newman, Sir R H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich) Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) Newton. Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Everard, W. Lindsay Nicholson, O. (Westminster) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Falle, Sir Bertram G. Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.) Captain Margesson and Captain Fenshawe, Captain G. D. Nuttall, Ellis Wallace.
NOES. Adamson, Rt. Hon, W. (Fife, West) Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Roberts. Rt. Hon. F. O.(W. Bromwich) Adamson. W. M. (Start., Cannock) Hayes, John Henry Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland) Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter Ammon, Charles George Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Sakiatvala, Shapurji Attlee, Clement Richard Hirst, G. H. Salter, Dr. Alfred Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bllston) Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Sexton, James Baker, Waiter Hollins, A. Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Hore-Belisha, Leslie Shiels, Dr. Drummond Barnes, A. Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Shinweli, E. Barr J Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Batey, Joseph Jenkins. W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Bondfield, Margaret John, William (Rhondda, West) Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Sitch, Charles H. Briant, Frank Jones, Henry Haydn (Merloneth) Slesser, Sir Henry H. Broad, F. A. Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Brown, Ernest (Leith) Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Smith. H. B. Lees (Keighley) Buchanan, G. Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Buxton, Rt Hon. Noel Jones, W. N. (Carmarthen) Sneil, Harry Charleton, H. C. Kelly, W. T. Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip Cluse, W. S. Kennedy, T. Stamford, T. W. Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Stephen, Campbell Compton, Joseph Kirkwood, D Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Connolly, M. Lansbury, George Strauss, E. A. Cove, W G. Lawrence, Susan Sutton, J. E. Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Lawson, John James Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Dalton, Hugh Lee, F. Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Longbottom, A. W. Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Dennison. R. Lowth, T. Thurtle, Ernest Dunnico, H. Lunn, William Tomlinson, R. P. England, Colonel A. Mackinder, W. Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) MacLaren, Andrew Vlant, S. P. Fenby, T. D Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Forrest, W. Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Watts-Morgan. Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Gardner. J. P. March, S. Wellock, Wilfred George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd Maxton, James Westwood, J. Gibbins, Joseph Montague, Frederick Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. Gillett, George M. Morris, R. H. Wiggins, William Martin Graham. Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Williams, David (Swansea, East) Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Murnin, H. Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Naylor, T. E. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Oliver. George Harold Wilson. C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) Groves, T. Palin, John Henry Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Grundy, T. W. Paling, W. Windsor, Walter Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Wright, W. Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydyll) Ponsonby, Arthur Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Potts. John S. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Hardie, George D. Purcell, A. A. Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Harney, E. A. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Whiteley.
I beg to move, in page 7, line 8, at the end, to insert the words
"'Dock undertaking' means an undertaking carried on by a dock authority, but also includes any other undertaking comprising as part thereof a dock in so far only as its business is carried on at and in connection with that dock;
Dock authority ' means any person or body of persons, whether incorporated or not, who are authorised to construct or are owners or lessees of any dock authorised by or under any Act."
A dock or wharf, as the House knows, is a freight-transport hereditament only in so far as it is used for dock purposes as a part of a dock undertaking substantially concerned with the shipping or unshipping of public traffic. The first part of this Amendment defines a dock undertaking, in the first place, as an undertaking carried on by a statutory dock authority. This would include all the various dock authorities, public trusts, boards, and commissions such as the Port of London Authority, the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board, and so on, as well as railway companies, local authorities, municipal corporations, or even individuals, whose powers are derived from or regulated by Act of Parliament. The remainder of the Amendment explains that dock undertakings include undertakings carried on by persons who, although not statutory dock authorities, possess a dock in the wide sense which the Bill gives to that word. The business of the dock may be the whole or only part of the business of the undertaking, but it is only in so far as the business of the undertaking is carried on at and in connection with the dock that the undertaking is a dock undertaking. These two definitions will complete the arrangements which we have been able to effect with the authorities referred to.
I fail to follow the definitions which have been stated by the right hon. Gentleman. The Amendment at first sight appears to me to mean—I hope I am right—that any business carried on in connection with a dock would be included in the definition of a dock undertaking. If that be so, would it include the conveyance to and from the dock of raw materials for purposes of manufacture On a previous occasion I raised the question whether the transport to or from a dock of raw materials or manufactured goods would be subject to de-rating, and I should like to hear if I may take it that that would be included under the present Amendment. We had a discussion just now as to whether, say, the offices of the Port of London Authority should participate in this relief. I fail to see how the business of the Port of London Authority could be carried on without their offices, and the same applies to the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board, who have a huge building at the docks but not in the docks: and it would be interesting to hear whether now, at the eleventh hour, the right hon. Gentleman has decided to include any business carried on in connection with a dock, including the transport of raw materials.
I think that this definition is about as satisfactory as the rest of the Bill. So far as I can gather it means this. Just along the river bank, outside the Terrace, there is a wharf which is used for passengers who go up and down the river for pleasure or business, and, under this definition and under the provisions of the Bill, that wharf can claim rating relief. But if you have another dock, used, as my hon. Friend the Member for St. Helens (Mr. Sexton) has just pointed out, for raw materials for an important factory engaged in important export business, that, apparently, is not a dock undertaking within the meaning of this and other parts of the Clause, and it will get no relief at all. That is the situation to which we come. I wish to protest once more against the unfair discrimination that is being made in this Bill against harbour works and against dock works other than those owned and managed by railway companies—the unfair discrimination that has been made in this Bill against shipping facilities ex- cept those in conjunction with railway companies. I cannot understand why the Government do not see that nothing is more important and vital to this country than to foster shipping—
Would the hon. and gallant Member explain what it is that he thinks is unfair?
What I consider unfair is that the great business house which provides its own wharf or dock is not a dock authority under this definition, and gets no relief, because, forsooth, it is not a common carrier, and because it is not certain that it will pass on its profits to the consumer; but if it is a brewery company, it is quite different. If it has a railway siding at Burton-on-Trent, that, of course, is a freight-transport hereditament, which will get relief to the extent of per cent., but a coal exporting company, with its wharves, exporting coal which goes abroad to pay for our wheat—coal which forms the ballast of our ships that go out to bring back the food on which we live—gets no relief. Such concerns are not productive: they are not necessary for the welfare of the country, so let them pay the full amount of the rates. How dare they build wharves for the development of the trade of Britain? Away with them!
I want very much to press this point upon the right hon. Gentleman, and I want to put to him our own case, if I may do so, because the point raised by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) affects us very much indeed. In more than one port, in order to facilitate business, we have found it necessary to have our own wharfages, to which we can tie up—
Who are "us"?
The co-operative movement. The Co-operative Wholesale Society has its own wharfages, and, in consequence of the failure to put this Amendment in sufficiently wide terms, and because of the Amendment adopted by the House just now, there will, I suggest, be no rating relief at all for those wharfages. I take it that a wharf which the co-operators own on the Thames, known as Middleton's Wharf, will on that account get no rating relief at all, although it is a very important wharf, and just as much entitled to consideraion as any one of the wharves on the 'lames that are used by companies for handling the goods of other people. The only difference in our case is that we had to acquire it ourselves, but it is just as much for the interest of the public, seeing that we are handling goods for over 5,500,000 members, as is, say, Hay's Wharf, which may be handling goods for a large number of middlemen. I think that that is an entirely unreasonable position for the Minister to take up. It is just as unreasonable as the Bill originally was, at the time of the Second Reading, as between the railway companies and the mineral lines of collieries. The Minister has met that position, and, if he is all logical, he must meet our case also. If he is going to give special rating relief to goods handled by other wharfages, he has no right to say that bodies like the movement with which I am connected have not an equal right to relief simply because we only handle goods for our own undertaking. We are performing a service for the great body of the community—nearly half the community of this country. The right hon. Gentleman has to administer this scheme from the inside, but the Chancellor of the Exchequer has to raise the money, and he is going to raise the money by means of a Petrol Tax, two-thirds of which will be derived from commercial vehicles. The actual merchandise carried by commercial vehicles will, of course, only be a fairly small proportion of the total merchandise carried in the country, and the amount to be raised from that can be passed on to the consumer—
On a point of Order. Is it in order to discuss the Petrol Duty on an Amendment relating to the definition of a dock undertaking or a dock authority?
I am afraid I was not listening at the moment, but the hon. Member appears to have been going rather wide of the Amendment in the line that he is taking.
I think the trouble is that the Minister does not want me to press too hardly upon his generosity. I was only stating the case for his making a concession, and I think that, if I may be allowed to complete my argument, both he and you, Mr. Speaker, will agree that it is not out of order.
I hope that the hon. Member will not lead other Members astray.
My point, and I will put it as shortly as possible, is that the great consumers' movement in the country is going to be handicapped because it will not be given the same amount of rate relief on its private wharfages as will be given on other wharfages side by side, while at the same time the money which is to be used to give the rate relief to the other wharfages is derived from a Petrol Tax, two-thirds of which is raised upon commercial vehicles.
On a point of Order. I submit that, while the point which the hon. Member is raising might possibly have been relevant to the last Amendment, it can have nothing whatever to do with the present Amendment.
It is too wide to be dealt with on an Amendment that merely lays down a definition of a dock authority or a dock undertaking.
5.0 p.m.
Our case is that the definition laid down in this Amendment is not wide enough. That is the whole reason for my mentioning the case. I do not want to pursue the question of petrol if it is specially obnoxious to the Minister. I am sure it would be logical, but perhaps the right hon. Gentleman does not regard is as particularly apposite to this Amendment. If the right hon. Gentleman could bring himself yesterday, in a spirit of generosity, to deal with the question of railway-owned and colliery-owned railways, he ought to give exactly the same concessions as between wharfages which are connected with the co-operative movement and wharfages connected with other undertakings.
Up to now I have not heard anyone advance the case of municipalities. We in West Ham are the owners of wharves at which we unload materials for various undertakings connected with our municipality. I know that the name of West Ham stinks in the nostrils of some hon. Members. It is most extraordinary that the private wharf owners in our district are to get relief to the extent of 75 per cent, of their rates, but that we, who have to administer the affairs of a population of 308,000 people and who get from our wharf our raw material for the maintenance of our roads, for the manufacture of our flagging for the streets and our coal for generating electricity are to get no relief, and are not recognised as a dock authority within the meaning of the Bill. Would West Ham Corporation Wharf be allowed relief of rates under the definition put forward by the Parliamentary Secretary? Of course, we are not a dock authority; we are only a poor orphan.
Why this discrimination? We are rendering the public a service. We are producing electricity as cheaply as it can be produced anywhere in Great Britain, and we are supplying the factories which are to get rates relief with the cheapest power that they can get: in fact they have scrapped their boilers and machinery and are buying electricity from us because it is cheaper. They are to get relief to the extent of 75 per cent. of their rates, and we are to get nothing but thanks for what we have done and a refusal of a loan when we approach the Minister. It is not fair. Why discriminate against public authorities? Take the Royal Albert Docks. It is not merely a dock authority, hut inside there are factories. For instance, one of the factories is producing ice. Will the ice factories get relief to the extent of 75 per cent. or will they pay the full rates? They are making big profits on their business—an average of 10 per cent. for a number of years. We are producing things necessary for the people in our own district. We are not recognised as productive because we are a municipal authority. In the case' of flagging for the paving of the streets we are saving the people of West Ham at least 15 per cent. on the prices they would have to pay for the same kind of stone elsewhere. We get no relief whatever, but on the same river and opposite to us a private company, producing the same kind of material, is to get rates relief of 75 per cent.
Surely we have a claim? As far as wages and hours of labour are con- cerned, we beat the private company to a frazzle. We pay our men more and are producing the stuff at a lower price for the benefit of the community. Why the discrimination? We cannot get any answer but laughter. I know that the Minister of Health always laughs when he cannot answer. That is the usual thing with him. A public authority is not a private trading concern. It is tied up with all kinds of restrictions. The work that we do of a productive character is not to be recognised. I am not objecting to relief to those who are in need of it, whether rich or poor. Evidently this Bill is intended to relieve the rich and keep the burden on the poor. In my own constituency nearly all the factories are doing well in spite of depressed trades. Some of them are doing very well, and some are doing badly. We are prepared to admit their right to relief. The industries that are doing badly, yes, give them all the assistance you can and help them on their feet. But you are giving relief to people who do not want it. We as a municipal authority are carrying great burdens. Our tramway service and all our other undertakings have been badly hit by industrial depression, but when we ask for some assistance we get nothing. The answer is always "Nothing doing."
The Parliamentary Secretary suggested earlier that some of the material which had been provided to my hon. Friend and the hon. Lady on the Labour benches was growing out of date. Perhaps the Minister will allow me to quote a message from these authorities which is quite up to date. I have just received a telegram, handed in at 4.29, which will be late enough for the right. hon. Gentleman's purposes. On this particular Amendment, it says:
"Chamberlain's Amendment difficult to construe, and apparently does not cover a part of a dock or company which is not an undertaking."
Will the right hon. Gentleman kindly tell us whether it does include part of a dock or whether it includes wharves or other port equipments which are not held by a company that is not an undertaking? I take it that the great organisation for which the hon. Member for Hillsborough (Mr. A. V. Alexander) speaks, has committed two penal offences. Its first offence is that it is mixed up with the distributive trades. That is a very grave offence under this Bill. The second offence is that it is not an undertaking; it is a company but not an undertaking. How can the right hon. Gentleman meet that? I recognise that he has gone a great deal further than in anything which appeared first on the Paper, and we are grateful to him for having done so. Why should he not go the whole way and make a clean sweep of the whole thing?
Does the right hon. Gentleman mean that I should withdraw the Bill?
I can imagine worse mistakes than that. I am afraid that the right hon. Gentleman is piling up for himself a whole burden of trouble from his own Measure. We can all see the confusion that is arising not only in the minds of Ministers, but of the general public outside. It shows that we are in for an era of embarrassment and confusion, and that so far as local finance is concerned we shall be in such a state of unsettlement as we have not known for 20 years. The right hon. Gentleman has been very good in telling us about these definitions. Can he answer this up-to-date question—whether the Bill is meant to cover part of a dock or a dock property which is held by a company which is not an undertaking? I asked a question earlier and he courteously replied that it would apply to a wharf held by a regular line, say, on the Thames, or Mersey, or Humber. Would it mean that the definition, as applied to them, would apply equally to other companies which are not undertakings, but which may be in the same position as the rest of these various wharves? Does it apply to pontoons as well as to other items mentioned- under the heading of "dock"? When one turns to "dock" in the Bill one finds that it means
"harbour, wharf, pier, jetty or other works in or at which vessels can ship or unship merchandise, etc."
Does that apply to a pontoon? A pontoon floats. It is connected with the docks walls, in a great many cases by a cantilever bridge or a bridge which rises and falls with the tide. There is nothing in the Bill, I am sure, that the pontoon, which is an essential part of the dock undertaking, is included within the definition. This is not a fancy ease. The right hon. Gentleman has been on the Mersey more than once, and he knows that for seven or eight miles down the Mersey there are these pontoons. There is one very long stretch where the big passenger liners take in their passengers. It must be 1,500 or 1,600 yards long, and is a pontoon. Is that included in the dock undertaking? It is known as the Landing Stage, and it is floating. It is not a vessel. Is it a dock within the meaning of this Bill? Will the right hon. Gentleman let us know how far the definition goes?
I would like to know whether the Clause includes dry docks, that is to say, docks where ships are repaired. As I understand it, it will include dry docks which belong to a railway company, but I would like to be assured that it also includes dry docks which belong to private companies. Let me give an illustration. The dry docks—otherwise known as graving docks—which belong to the railway company at Hull, I assume, will get the relief, but what is the position of a dock like the Hull Central Dry Dock, which belongs to a private company? If it is not to get the relief it will be placed at a very considerable disadvantage, though it will be doing precisely the same work as the neighbouring railway dry dock or graving dock. I would like an assurance that the Clause does in fact cover dry docks whether they belong to private companies, to a corporate body, or to a railway company.
There are very few Members of the House for whose intelligence I have greater respect than the right hon. Gentleman opposite, but I cannot help thinking that he was a little carried away by his desire to make the worst of the case when he proceeded to put to me such a very simple series of conundrums as those that proceeded from him a few moments ago. Really he must know when you are dealing with the definition of dock undertakings, that the question as to whether a part of a dock is a dock is really not relevant to dock undertakings. Then, he says: "What happens when you have a company which is not an undertaking?" If he will read the definition, he will see that
"a dock undertaking means an undertaking carried on by a dock authority."
It does not mean a company at all. It means the business. The question put by his correspondent by telegram does not apply at all. An undertaking is not used in the sense his correspondent attaches to it. A further question the right hon. Gentleman put was whether a pontoon is a dock. I can answer that. I can refer him this time to the definition of dock in the Bill. He says a pontoon is not a vessel. No one says that it is.
"Dock includes any harbour, wharf, pier, jetty or other works in or at which vessels can ship or unship merchandise."
The answer then is plain. A pontoon is a work at which vessels can ship or unship merchandise, and it comes within the definition of a dock.
That is the first time that has been said.
I did not think it was necessary to issue a Child's Guide to Knowledge. The thing is obvious on the face of it.
The right hon. Gentleman seems to think I have been speaking as representing one or two anonymous correspondents. I was speaking for the very highest authorities on these undertakings. They were not clear about it, and I am glad to have had an assurance from the right hon. Gentleman.
I am glad to have satisfied the right hon. Gentleman. I did not say his correspondents were anonymous. I said they communicated with him by telegram. I supposed they had not been able to put the case as fully as they would have done by letter. I must say it is a little discouraging, after all these discussions, to find hon. Members so completely dead to all sense of responsibility that they have not taken the trouble to investigate in the slightest degree the provisions of the Bill. The hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) put a series of cases. He was wrong in every one. The fact that he could bring out such a series of inaccuracies at this stage of the Bill shows how much his criticisms are worth. Piers or jetties primarily used for recreation are specifically excluded.
Steamboats perform a function analogous to omnibuses in the streets. They take people to and from their work. The fact that an omnibus occasionally goes to the Derby does not mean that it is used for recreation purposes. The same thing applies here. I could find plenty of lawyers who would prove that these boats are not used primarily for recreation purposes.
I advise the hon. and gallant Gentleman to try, but not to put any money on it. We had an amusing and entertaining speech, as usual, from the hon. Member for Silver-town (Mr. J. Jones). He began by stating that the municipality of West Ham was unfairly discriminated against, and he said it was extremely unjust that relief should be given to private undertakings carrying on exactly the same business as the West Ham municipality, and he wanted to know why we were going to protect rich private people and not the poor municipality of West Ham. After some remarks of that kind, he proceeded to ask whether in fact the municipality of West Ham was going to be put in this position. Although he taunted us with not answering, which it would have been difficult to do while he was on his feet and at the same time keep within the rules of order, he did not wait for an answer, but proceeded again to restate all the injustices and inequalities he professed to see in our proposals as between West Ham and private undertakings. Of course, the short and simple answer is that the West Ham municipality, like any other, does come in, and there is no discrimination.
I only wanted to put the case as strongly as I could for the purpose of getting it in black and white whether a municipal authority owning wharves is going to be treated like private people owning similar undertakings.
I can only say it is a pity the hon. Member thought it necessary to make a speech running so eloquently upon an injustice which did not in fact exist. [ Interruption. ] I had not time to note down all the cases put by the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull, but I noted at the time that every one was wrong. The hon. Member for Hillsborough (Mr. A. V. Alexander) at any rate has not misunderstood the purpose of the Bill, but he makes the complaint that persons owning private wharves, and using them solely for the purpose of their business, are not given discrimination in the Valuation List so that they may be given rating relief. The business to which he refers is not discriminated against as a co-operative concern. It is in precisely the same position as any private concern, and the reason is obvious. We have stated from the beginning that our purpose in giving relief to transport agencies was not to relieve the transport agencies as such, but that they might pass on the relief to productive industry.
This is important. If we use a wharf for importing raw material for the co-operative productive factories, will it be eligible for de-rating under the Bill?
We have to consider the relative position of those who are concerned in the matter. If we de-rate a dock belonging to a statutory authority who use it substantially for the purposes of public traffic, obviously the relief can be passed on, and it will be passed on, in the case of the statutory authorities because they cannot help it, and in the case of the other dock undertakings because the force of competition will compel them to hand on the relief. But the case of a person owning private wharves or docks is quite different. There is nothing to hand it on to. It goes into the pockets of the person who owns the wharf or dock, and it does not make any difference whether it is a co-operative or any other undertaking, or whether, later on, the materials brought to the wharf go to a private factory or not. The hon. Member knows quite well that, if there is a productive factory belonging to a co-operative body, it will get its rating relief as an industrial hereditament. Then the hon. Gentleman says: You have given a concession to private railways, and, if you are logical, you must give the same concession to persons with private wharves. I think he has not quite thought that out, because the real analogy would be if we had given that relief not merely to mineral railways but to all private railways. Our Amendment was confined to mineral railways that are owned by mines and run from the mine to the public railway. That is because there we are dealing with one of the selected traffics that is to receive the special relief given in the Bill. The only question that remains is that of the Eon. Member for Darwen (Sir F. Sanderson). I think a graving dock would not be a dock for the purposes of the Bill, because a graving dock is not a work at which merchandise is shipped or unshipped. As far as I can see, it might come in as an industrial hereditament, but not as a freight-transport hereditament.
Will the right hon. Gentleman explain the words "at and in connection." Take a wool warehouse used for the purpose of the sale and storage of wool in connection with the dock. Would that come under these new words, and, if so, ought there not to be a modification of Clause 6?
No. I think that suggestion is again founded upon a misunderstanding. What we are doing is to define the words "dock undertaking." We are not considering giving rating relief to persons who use the dock. We are considering whether or not a particular undertaking is to be called a dock undertaking, and we say, first of all, that
"a dock undertaking means an undertaking carried on by a dock authority,"
and it is afterwards also defined as any other undertaking comprising any other business, part of which is a dock. You cannot say a dock is part of a wool undertaking. Take the case of a railway. It is not primarily a dock undertaking, but, if it owns a dock in respect of the business it carries on at or in connection with the dock, it is also a dock undertaking.
Will the right hon. Gentleman explain this? I find that in the Amendment a dock undertaking is defined as
"an undertaking carried on by a dock authority"
that is clear—and secondly, as
"any other undertaking comprising as part thereof a dock in so far as only its business is carried on at and in connection with that dock."
I take it that that would be the effect of the Amendment. If we turn to paragraph (c) in Sub-section (2) we find that "dock purposes" means
"all purposes connected with the shipping or unshipping at a dock,"
and all that is shipped that has been conveyed by a railway forming part of tilt dock undertaking. Therefore, in the Bill itself you have already included the railway as part of the dock. Is it not a little confusing, having already said in your Bill that a railway connected with a dock is part of the dock, to say that a dock undertaking shall be, first, the dock itself, and, secondly, that it shall also include the railway connected with it?
I think that the hon. and learned Member has not taken into account the fact that there are two classes of cases. There is the case where there is the railway shown as a dock. That is the case outside the definition that we are discussing. There is also the case of a railway which belongs to a dock. The dock is the primary authority and owns the railway, and that is the case which is dealt with in paragraph ( c ).
Question, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill," put, and agreed to.
CLAUSE 6.—(Entries in valuation lists as to freight-transport hereditaments.)
With regard to the next Amendment—in page 8, to leave out lines 14 to 26 inclusive—which stands in the name of the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Greenwood), I think that his second Amendment—in page 8, to leave out from the word "vehicles" in line 21, to the end of the Clause—and the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Wednesbury (Mr. Short)—in page 8, line 26, at the end, to insert the words
"unless and to the extent that any part of such building, yard, or other place is used principally for the warehousing of merchandise in the course of being transported,"
should be discussed together with the next Amendment. They are covered by this first Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne.
Does that mean that my hon. Friends, whose names are down to the last Amendment, will be able to divide the House if they wish to do so?
If there is any reason for pressing a Division on that Amendment, there can be a Division upon it without any discussion, the understanding being that any discussion with regard to that Amendment will take place on the first Amendment.
There are two separate issues raised in these Amendments—the question of the warehouses and the question of the housing of vehicles.
The hon. Member is apparently satisfied with my Ruling.
I beg to move, in page 8, to leave out lines 14 to 26 inclusive.
In dealing with Clauses 5 and 6, we have had a number of concessions made to meet the quite justifiable criticisms which have been put forward by the dock authorities. I am hoping that before we leave the Bill the right hon. Gentleman may be pressed to go a little further. There are two points in the proviso, and they are both of substance. The first really deals with the question of motor garages and the maintenance of road vehicles, and the second one with warehouses. The position, as I understand it, is that buildings occupied and used for housing and maintaining road vehicles, if they happen to belong to railway companies, are to be de-rated. But similar buildings occupied by dock authorities are not to be de-rated. Therefore, it follows that the dock authorities and the assessment authorities will have to go to the trouble of making assessments and to differentiate those parts of the dock undertakings which are not to be de-rated. I am informed that in the ease of the Port of London Authority their grounds cover 3,235 acres. They have a small plot of land, 20 feet by 100 feet, which is used for garage purposes. Why, in the name of goodness, is riot this small bit of the Port of London Authority's premises thrown in with the dock and no differentiation made? In the case of the Mersey Board, which covers almost as much ground as the Port of London Authority—over 3,000 acres—half-an- acre of ground is used for the storage and for the housing or maintenance of road vehicles.
It seems to me that in regard to this very small matter the dock authorities ought to be put on the same footing as the railway enterprises. No differentiation has been made there. The right hon. Gentleman says: "Yes, but in that case such advantages as they get from the de-rating of their motor garages are to be passed on through the reduction in rates for certain kinds of heavy commodities." In any event, the amount would be relatively small and would be almost negligible in the case of the dock authorities. I do not think that the dock authorities would mind at all the actual amount of money that there is involved in this. It is the perpetual irritation that is caused in the minds of the dock authorities who have to maintain a special staff of people to do nothing but conduct negotiations with various local authorities in London and elsewhere. It would simplify the whole procedure under this Bill if paragraph ( a ) were deleted and the buildings used for housing and maintaining road vehicles were regarded as part of the dock enterprise. I would like to emphasise what my hon. Friend the Member for East Ham North (Miss Lawrence) said. It would be much simpler and need not cost the Government any more if the dock undertaking was regarded as a unit and everything within it regarded as part of the dock enterprise, even though the 75 per cent. which has been granted to industrial enterprises were allowed to remain and the percentage in the case of docks were reduced to a somewhat smaller figure. It might be put at 60 per cent. I think that if that were done the dock authorities would regard themselves as having been freed of a great worry.
The second proviso raises a question of much greater importance, because here we are dealing with the question of warehouses. In the case of the railway companies warehouses will be de-rated and in the case of dock undertakings warehouses will not be de-rated. As I tried to make clear when we were in Committee, a dock undertaking is not a transport undertaking in the same way a, a railway undertaking. It is very largely a warehousing undertaking concerned with the storage of goods and in many cases with providing facilities for the sale of goods—as in the case of wool sales—and with providing also facilities for storage during the time that certain processes which are part of the processes of production are taking place. Therefore, the question of the warehouses in a dock enterprise is a very important one. It is going to lead to an enormous amount of trouble on the part of the dock authorities and assessment authorities, and, no doubt, on the part of the Courts in deciding what is, and what is not, a warehouse. The right hon. Gentleman's new words do not help us in the least to get any precise meaning as to what is a warehouse. I am certain that as soon as his Act comes into operation, and as soon as the local authorities are actually concerned with its administration, legislation will arise from the dock authorities on this very question as to what is a warehouse and what is not a warehouse.
On the question of merchandise not "in course of being transported," these words, I submit, are words which at present mean nothing. We shall have to wait until there is a High Court decision before we have the faintest idea what these words mean. I wilt explain to the House why. The original words in the Bill were perfectly clear "in course of transit." I am not a lawyer, but I understand that every lawyer knows perfectly well what "in course of transit" means. Anyhow, the question has been decided in Courts of Law, not once but hundreds of times. Those words originally appeared in the Bill but they were taken out. The reason was, that from these benches hon. Members pointed to cases where goods were in course of transit notwithstanding the fact that they might actually be warehoused for a long period of time. The right hon. Gentleman, in order to meet that case, took out the words "in course of transit" and put in the words "course of being transported." The first time a case arising out of the interpretation of these words goes before the Court the Judge is certain to say, "Oh, well, it is not in course of transit'; it must mean something else. If Parliament meant 'in course of transit' it would have said 'in course of transit.' Therefore there is some meaning to be attached to these words 'in course of being transported'." What is the meaning of this? We asked for it on the Committee stage. We did not get enlightenment. I am hoping that we are going to obtain it to-day, because it is a point of very substantial importance. It is a point which is going to give rise to considerable differences of opinion between the dock authorities and the local authorities as to whether goods are in course of being transported or not.
Look at Clause 5.
I will look at Clause 5, but I am not at all satisfied. At least, I am quite sure that the dock authorities are not quite satisfied that "in course of being transported" is adequately defined in Clause 5.
I was only drawing the hon. Member's attention to the matter. Clause 5 does, at any rate, artificially define transport purposes.
The point that my hon. and learned Friend is raising is not the point with which I am dealing at the moment. The point is, that in a particular warehouse at a particular time you may have in one room goods which are in course of being transported and in another room goods which are not in course of being transported, and I defy any Member of this House, from this Bill, to give us guidance as to which is which. That is an unsatisfactory state in which to leave the law. The confusion arises because the Government have decided to treat dock authorities different from the railways. If they had put the docks on the same footing as the railways a good many of these difficulties would not have arisen, but because they narrowed down to the railways the transport bodies to whom they are to give the relief which is to be passed on, they are being driven to all these different distinctions. My view is that the Government would have been very much wiser to have visualised the transport system as a whole, and not have set one type of transport at the throat of another type by drawing distinctions between road transport, railway transport and dock undertakings, and drawing special distinctions between dock undertakings and railway undertakings. I am prepared to admit that Clause 6 is a little better than it was when the Bill was introduced, but I still think that the provisos in Clause 6 leave the Bill almost as obscure as it was before, and maintain distinctions which ought not to apply.
I beg to second the Amendment.
If the Minister cannot meet us on the larger question of the warehouses, perhaps he can meet us on the question of the storage of road vehicles. The insertion of this provision in regard to dock undertakings is a very fatuous proceeding. The other day, a mouse ran across the Floor of this House, and it seems to me that after a great deal of labour the mountain has brought forth this particular mouse in this particular Clause. We have the Port of London Authority with an acreage of 3,235 and a small building of 20 feet by 100 feet used for storing vehicles, and we have the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board with an acreage of 3,051 and only half an acre used for this purpose. The right hon. Gentleman may say that in that case it would not cause much trouble. The amount of money involved is almost negligible, but the dock authorities have had a great deal of experience with rating authorities in connection with their undertakings, and they are very anxious before this Clause goes through that any possible cause of dispute between the dock authority and the rating authority shall be removed, unless its retention is vitally necessary for the working of the Clause. Paragraph ( a ) does seem to be so trivial that it might easily go, having regard to the extent of buildings used for the warehousing of road vehicles used by dock authorities, as shown by the figures which I have quoted. What is true of these two large authorities is true of other dock authorities. The amount of accommodation so used is negligible. By the deletion of this paragraph we shall simplify the Bill, and remove a cause of dispute between the dock authorities and the rating authorities.
On the larger issue, I would appeal to the Minister to go a little further than he has done up to the present. If the warehouses are on the dock it does not matter whether they belong to a railway company or a dock undertaking; they are treated equally, but the Minister is making an exception in favour of warehouses owned by railway companies, provided they are not attached to a dock undertaking run by the railway companies. I would ask the Minister whether he could not treat the dock authorities precisely on the same footing as the railway authorities. In making an exception in favour of the railway companies, he said:
Warehouses for the docks mean a great deal to the dock authorities. It is not simply a question of the relief through de-rating on the basis of this Clause which the dock authorities are so much concerned about, as the getting of a definition as to the basis of that de-rating made so clearly that every point of dispute with the rating authorities may be avoided. The Minister would, in fairness to his own Bill, do himself a ser vice, his Bill a service, the local authorities a service, and the dock authorities a service, if he would treat railway warehouses and dock warehouses, as the Amendment suggests, precisely on the same footing, whether the warehouses happen to be at the docks or on the railways.
The Amendment deals with the proviso of Subsection (3). The effect of that proviso is that we exclude from the rating relief in the case of a canal or a dock garages used for the purpose of housing their vehicles by either of those undertakings, and, secondly, warehouses which are used primarily for the purposes of storage. As the hon. Member for Leith (Mr. E. Brown) has pointed out, the two cases stand upon rather a different footing, and their relative importance is different. It is rather curious, that while I have been asked to treat dock undertakings in precisely the same way as railway undertakings, as far as warehouses are concerned, a special point was made by the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Greenwood) that docks were not primarily transport undertakings, but really undertakings largely for purposes of storage or warehousing. That is true, and that really constitutes the justification and basis of the distinction which is made between warehouses used not in the dock part where railway companies are concerned, but in the railway part, and warehouses used at the docks themselves.
The hon. Member admitted that there is no distinction made between railway and dock undertakings in this connection as far as the docks are concerned; and it would be quite absurd and unfair to contend for one moment that docks are to be considered as competitors of railways, except in so far as the railways also own docks. The business which is carried on on the railways is entirely separate from that which is carried on at the docks. Therefore, there can be no question of unfair treatment in regard to relief on the ground of any competition arising. One must have regard in considering these proposals, not merely to theoretical equality and to logic, but also to the practical effects which have to be achieved, and the amount of disturbance that will be necessary in order to achieve them. If we find that after a considerable amount of disturbance we are only going to get a very small result, then we might fairly neglect the question of logic and strict equality, and let the small things go. But we cannot apply that to the warehouses forming part of the dock undertaking. It is true that there are only a small number of dock undertakings. The hon. Member for Leith, who knows this Bill as well as anyone on the Opposition side, has pointed out that that is not really the question. It is a question of the number of rating authorities concerned, and when we consider that point we have to bear in mind that the railway companies have to deal with hundreds of rating authorities, whereas the docks have only to deal with a few.
The hon. Member for Nelson and Colne quarrelled with me in regard to the words "in course of being transported," which we have inserted. I think he is ungrateful, because the criticism of the words in the original draft of the Bill came from his own party. It was the hon. Member for East Ham, North (Miss Lawrence) who spent an enjoyable and exultant 20 minutes in pointing out the difficulties that were occasioned by the use of the words "in course of transit"; how different parts of buildings were used for different purposes; and she declared that it would be impossible to carry out the Act if those words remained in the Bill. Now we have altered them.
I do not know what they mean.
6.0 p.m.
I do not think they present any serious difficulty to the willing mind. After all, looking at the speech of the hon. Member for East Ham, North, in which she compared the places where goods remain for a few days with those parts of the docks where a barrel of brandy might be stored with the intention of its remaining there for 10 years or so, I do not think anybody would describe that barrel of brandy as "in the course of being transported." We have tried to meet this difficulty by saying that the question must, be decided according to whether the building is primarily used for the purpose of storing goods which are in course of being transported or whether it is really used as a warehouse for storage. I really cannot give way on this; it is too important. If these warehouses were included it would cut across one of the underlying principles of the Bill, as it would bring in not merely transport undertakings, but undertakings which are used principally for the purposes of distribution.
Now I come to the question of garages. The House may remember that in my speech on the Second Reading I frankly said that I did not profess to have had the time and opportunity to find out for myself every possible detail or every possible difficulty which might arise in the course of this Bill, and that of necessity I had to proceed on certain broad assumptions. I also said that in the course of the discussion we should probably find fresh information coming forward, and that if it did, I would welcome it and make any change or adaptation that might be called for in the light of that new information. I think that in this matter I have had fresh information. We have had certain figures given by the hon. Member opposite. They have been sent to me. It is quite untrue to suppose that we have not been in touch with dock authorities and transport undertakings. In conjunction with the Ministry of Transport we have repeatedly seen them or corresponded with them, and they have represented to us that this is really a case of de minimis; that the value of the premises used by docks or canals for the purpose of housing their own vehicles bears an infinitesimal proportion to the value of the whole building. I am disposed to accept that view. I am not going to be obstinate about retaining paragraph ( a ) of this Clause, because it is in the draft of the Bill now that I have more complete information to show that it is really not needed, and, therefore, I am prepared to abandon paragraph ( a ). It will be necessary, however, for the hon. Member to withdraw the Amend- ment, and if he will do so, I shall be quite prepared to move that paragraph ( a ) be omitted.
The right hon. Gentleman has made a reference to some remarks of mine on a previous Amendment, but the insertion of the words "in course of being transported" does not meet the point I made. The point is this, that in the same yards, in the same bonded warehouses, there are parcels of goods which have to be taken away in the course of a few days or hours and goods stored which may remain there for a decade. Take the case of tobacco. There are three rates paid for tobacco. First, there is the tobacco which you have to fetch out in seven days, then the tobacco which has to be taken out in 80 days, and then the tobacco which may be stored for a year. The whole point of my objection is that you cannot, without the greatest difficulty, decide whether a particular bonded warehouse or duty free warehouse, which contains a miscellaneous collection of goods which are passing through and goods which are stored, is to be primarily considered as a storage place or not. Take the case of corn. Some corn is taken away quickly and some is stored. Timber also in some cases is stored, in others it is taken away quickly. The whole of these warehouses are mixed hereditaments, and it is a most difficult question to decide whether, owing to the amount of floor space occupied by goods in passage and goods stored, the warehouse should be de-rated or not.
I am not asking the right hon. Gentleman to do anything contrary to the theory or plan upon which, wisely or unwisely, he has built this Bill. I am not asking him to give one penny more to the docks or to do anything which I consider to be unreasonable, but I suggest that he should de-rate the whole of these warehouses and re-rate them to correspond to the mixed nature of the hereditaments. If we insert the word "primarily" or the word "sub-stantially" we have only to reflect how many local authorities will be engaged in deciding whether a building is
"primarily" or "substantially." It is not one rating authority alone which will be engaged. In the case of London alone there will be a whole row of authorities on both sides of the river from Stepney to Tilbury who will perhaps all take different and ingenious views of what may be meant by "primarily" or "substantially" in regard to warehouses, and who will all try their hands in the courts in order to get as little de-rated as possible. I am speaking from the local government point of view, which I know pretty well. Poplar has spent £26,000 on a law suit on the question of rating, and I do not like to see the ratepayers' money spent in sterile disputes. I press again on the Minister that he will get all he wants if he will de-rate all the warehouses and then later on in the Bill fix a lower level at which they are to be re-rated. I press it now and I shall press it later on for the sake of peaceful relations between local authorities and docks and harbour authorities.
I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment. When Mr. Deputy-Speaker was in the Chair he said that we could have a general discussion on this Amendment, but that if we cared to divide against later Amendments we could do so; and I only wish to retain our right to divide on the Amendment to delete paragraph ( b ) of this Clause.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment made: In page 8, line 18, leave out paragraph ( a ).—[ Mr. Chamberlain. ]
I beg to move, in page 8, line 22, to leave out paragraph ( b ).
I beg to second the Amendment.
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
The House divided: Ayes, 276; Noes, 141.
Division No. 29] AYES. [6.12 p.m. Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Balfour, George (Hampstead) Albery, Irving James Apsley, Lord Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Centr'l) Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) Barnett, Major Sir Richard Allen, Sir J. Sandeman Atholl, Duchess of Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Gadle, Lieut.-Col. Anthony Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) Bennett, A. J. Galbraith. J. F. W. Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- Gates, Percy Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph Berry, Sir George Gilmour, Lt. Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Nelson, Sir Frank Bethel, A. Glyn, Major R. G. C. Neville, Sir Reginald J. Betterton, Henry B. Goff, Sir Park Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Birchall, Major J. Dearman Grace, John Newton, Sir D. G. C.(Cambridge) Bird, E. R.(Yorks, W. R., Skipton) Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Nicholson, O. (Westminster) Blundell, F. N. Grant, Sir J. A. Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.) Boothby, R. J. G. Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John Nuttall, Ellis Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart Grotrian, H. Brent O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh Brass, Captain W. Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Pennefather, Sir John Brassey, Sir Leonard Gunston, Captain D. W. Penny, Frederick George Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Hacking, Douglas H. Percy, Lord Eustace(Hastings) Briggs, J. Harold Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Perkins, Colonel E. K. Briscoe, Richard George Hail, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Brittain, Sir Harry Hamilton. Sir George Peto, G.(Somerset, Frome) Brocklebank, C. E. R. Harland, A. Pilcher, G. Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Harrison, G. J. C. Pilditch, Sir Philip Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Hartington, Marquess of Preston, William Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) Price, Major C. W. M. Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C.(Berks, Newb'y) Haslam, Henry C. Radford, E. A. Buchan, John Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd, Henley) Raine, Sir Walter Buckingham, Sir H. Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. Ramsden, E. Bullock, Captain M Henn, Sir Sydney H. Rawson, Sir Cooper Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. Reid, D. D. (County Down) Burman, J. B. Hills, Major John Waller Rentoul, G. S. Burton, Colonel H. W. Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) Campbell, E. T. Holt, Capt. H. P. Robinson, Sir T. (Lanc, Strettord) Carver, Major W. H. Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Cassels, J. D. Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. Cautley, Sir Henry S. Hopkins, J. W. W. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Cayzer, Sir C.(Chester, City) Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) Rye, F. G. Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt R. (Prtsmth, S.) Hopkinson, A.(Lancaster, Mossley) Samuel, A. M.(Surrey, Farnham) Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) Sandeman, N. Stewart Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H.(Ox. Univ.) Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer Sanders, Sir Robert A. Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.) Hurd, Percy A. Sanderson, Sir Frank Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Hurst, Gerald B. Sandon, Lord Chapman, Sir S. Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Christie, J. A. Iveagh, Countess of Savery, S. S. Churchman, Sir Arthur C. Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Clarry, Reginald George Jephcott, A. R. Shepperson, E. W. Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down) Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George Kindersley, Major G. M. Skelton, A. N. Cohen, Major J. Brunel King, Commodore Henry Douglas Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Smith-Carington, Neville W. Conway, Sir W. Martin Lamb, J. Q. Somerville, A. A.(Windsor) Cooper, A. Duff Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Cope, Major Sir William Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. Couper, J. B. Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Stanley, Lord(Fylde) Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. Little, Dr. E. Graham Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.) Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey Steel, Major Samuel Strang Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim) Looker, Herbert William Streatfeild, Captain S. R. Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) Lougher, Lewis Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Lowe, Sir Francis William Styles, Captain H. Walter Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Curzon, Captain Viscount Lynn, Sir R. J. Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Dalkeith, Earl of MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Tasker, R. Inigo. Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Templeton, W. P. Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) Macdonald, R.(Glasgow, Cathcart) Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G.(Dumbarton) Davies, Dr. Vernon McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) MacIntyre, I. Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell. Dawson, Sir Philip McLean, Major A. Titchfield, Major the Marquess of Dean, Arthur Wellesley Macmillan, Captain H. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Drewe, C Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K P. Eden, Captain Anthony Macquisten, F. A. Waddington, R. Edmondson, Major A. J. MacRobert, Alexander M. Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) Elliot, Major Walter E. Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. Ellis, R. G. Makins, Brigadier-General E. Warrender, Sir Victor Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn Waterhouse, Captain Charles Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Margesson, Captain D. Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) Evans, Captain A.(Cardiff, South) Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Watts, Sir Thomas Everard, W. Lindsay Metter, R. J. Wells, S. R. Falls, Sir Bertram G. Merriman, Sir F. Boyd White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple- Fanshawe, Captain G. D. Meyer, Sir Frank Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) Fermoy, Lord Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) Fielden, E. B. Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) Williams, Herbert G.(Reading) ford, Sir P. J. Mitchell, Sir W. Lane(Streatham) Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) Fraser, Captain Ian Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M Windsor, Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Frece, Sir Walter de Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R.(Ayr) Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Moore, Sir Newton J. Withers, John James Wormer, Viscount Woodcock, Colonel H. C. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Womersley, W. J. Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Captain Bowyer and Captain Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde) Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. Wallace. Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich)
NOES. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (File, West) Hirst, W.(Bradford, South) Salter, Dr. Alfred Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Hollins, A. Scrymgeour, E. Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Hore-Belisha, Leslie Sexton, James Ammon, Charles George Hudson, J. H.(Huddersfield) Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Attlee, Clement Richard Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bliston) John, William (Rhondda, West) Shiels, Dr. Drummond Baker, Walter Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Shinwell, E. Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Barnes, A. Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Barr, J. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Sitch, Charles H. Batey, Joseph Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Slesser, Sir Henry H. Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Jones, W. N. (Carmarthen) Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) Broad, F. A. Kelly, W. T. Smith, Rennle (Penistone) Bromley, J. Kennedy, T. Snell, Harry Brown, Ernest (Leith) Kirkwood, D. Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip Buchanan, G. Lansbury, George Stamford, T. W. Charleton, H. C. Lawrence, Susan Stephen, Campbell Cluse, W. S. Lawson, John James Stewart, J.(St. Roliox) Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Lee, F Strauss, E. A. Compton, Joseph Livingstone, A. M Sutton, J. E. Connolly, M. Longbottom, A. W. Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Cove, W. G. Lunn, William Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Mackinder, W. Thorne. W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Dalton, Hugh MacLaren, Andrew Thurtle, Ernest Dennison, R. Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Tomlinson, R. P. Dunnico, H. Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Townend, A. E. England, Colonel A. Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) March, S. Viant, S. P. Fenby, T. D. Maxton, James Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Forrest, W. Morris, R. H. Watts-Morgan. Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Gardner, J. P. Morrison, R. C.(Tottenham, N.) Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney Gibbins, Joseph Naylor, T. E. Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah Gillett, George M. Oliver, George Harold Wellock, Wilfred Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Owen, Major G. Westwood, J. Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Palin, John Henry Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J Griffith, F. Kingsley Paling, W. Wiggins, William Martin Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Wilkinson, Ellen C. Groves, T. Pethick-Lawrence. F. W. Williams, David (Swansea, East) Grundy, T. W. Ponsonby, Arthur Williams, Dr. J. H.(Lianelly) Hall, F.(York, W. R., Normanton) Potts, John S. Williams, T.(York, Don Valley) Hall, G. H.(Merthyr Tydvll) Purcell, A. A. Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Hardie, George D. Riley, Ben Windsor, Walter Harney, E. A. Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) Wright, W. Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Hayes, John Henry Runciman, Hilda (Cornwall, St. Ives) Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Hirst, G. H. Saklatvala, Shapurji Mr. Whiteley and Mr. T. Henderson.
CLAUSE 7.—(Provisions as to London.)
I beg to move, in page 9, to leave out from the first word " Act," in line 16, to the word " in " in line 17.
This Amendment goes a good deal beyond the content of this particular Bill, and is deliberately moved for the purpose of raising the question whether the manner in which the definition of " rating authority " has been drawn in this Bill—which is a new method of definition—is one that can be sanctioned by the House of Commons. I think I am right in saying that until this particular provision was here inserted, the general rule was that when it was sought to carry forward a definition, the latter Act re- ferred to the principal Act and said that the expression "rating authority" or whatever it might be, was to have the same meaning as it had in the antecedent principal Act. After all, it is very material that persons who have to refer to these Acts in the Courts and to construe them, should know what they mean and there is obvious value in the arrangement which I have just described. If it is stated in an Act that an expression is to have the same meaning as it had in some earlier Act, you are then put upon your inquiry as to the original Act. If I see in the Rating and Valuation Act, 1940, assuming that there should be one, that the expression "rating authority" in relation to London shall have the same meaning as it had in the Rating and Valuation (Apportionment) Act, 1928, I can then get hold of the 1928 Statute and see what it means and the Judge dealing with the phrase "rating authority" can look back and see what it means. But the particular device which I am asking the House now to eliminate from this Bill takes the form of using the words: find that the Interpretation Act is largely confined to words of the greatest generality. There are such provisions, for example, as that the singular shall include the plural, and that words in the plural shall include the singular. Reference is made also to the fact that the "Office of Lord Chancellor" shall mean the Office of the Lord High Chancellor of Great Britain and that the expression 'Secretary of State' shall mean one of His Majesty's Principal Secretaries of State. Of course it is quite plain that when we use the masculine we can remember that it includes the feminine, and that when we use the singular we can remember that it includes the plural, and, when we refer to the Lord Chancellor, I do not think it needs much imagination or memory to recall that we mean the Lord High Chancellor of Great Britain. But when we come to the expression "rating authority" in its application to London—because this particular attempt at prospective definition is limited to the expression "rating authority" in relation to London—is any hon. Member going to say that 20, 30 or 40 years hence people are going to remember that obscurely buried away in Clause 7 of the Rating and Valuation (Apportionment) Act, 1928, there is a definition of " rating authority " in that particular relation? Supposing that it is forgotten. Supposing that the Judge at the time has not a text book before him—and this matter might come before Quarter Sessions—then those concerned. finding there is no definition in the hypothetical Statute to which I have referred, may very properly and fairly proceed to construe the expression for themselves and, in the light of nature, they may come to the view that these words do not necessarily mean what they are said to mean in the Act of 1928, as to which they have not been put upon their inquiry. I see, for example, in Sub-section (2) that as regards the Inner Temple, the sub-Treasurer is to be regarded as the rating authority. In so far as that means that the Inner Temple is going to continue and flourish, I am very glad to see it included in this provision, but how is anyone in 1940 to think that the rating authority in the Inner Temple necessarily means the sub-Treasurer? Surely we are dealing with a rather serious matter. This is an innovation. The right hon. Gentleman taunted me, when we last discussed this matter, with being suspicious of innovations. We must surely regard innovations with suspicion in this sense—that we want to know whether they are good or bad.
The hon. and learned Gentleman asked me to give him a precedent. I thought we had satisfied him by giving him one.
Yes, I asked for a precedent because I wanted to satisfy myself that this was a new method of definition or what I call prospective definition and I got the assurance which I wanted, namely, that outside the Interpretation Act that method of definition had never been tried before. What encourages me to pursue the matter is that the right hon. Gentleman said that the elimination of these words would not wreck the Government and I understood he was not particularly wedded to them if we could persuade him that it was foolish to legislate prospectively in this way. Therefore, I believe I am fulfilling a useful purpose in trying to persuade him to abandon these words. No votes at any election are likely to be affected one way or the other by the elimination of these words, and I am sure that if the right hon. Gentleman wishes to continue to possess the respect of all practising lawyers, to which, I am sure, he attaches great importance, he will be the first to see that words of this sort will be regarded by anybody who has to deal with the practical interpretation of Statutes as a very cumbrous definition. When we come to another Bill dealing with rating authorities in London, I hope we shall simply say that the rating authority in London shall have the same meaning as it has in the Rating and Valuation (Apportionment) Act, 1928.
I beg to second the Amendment.
I really cannot attach the very great importance to this Amendment that the hon. and learned Member for South-East Leeds (Sir H. Slesser) does. I should have thought there was only one point raised in this connection. Of course, it is not at all speaking like a lawyer to suggest that the Statute Book contains no provisions anywhere else which lay down definitions for future use. That is what the whole Interpretation Act was about, as every practising lawyer knows. The only practical point, I should have thought, was this. The Interpretation Act is labelled as being an Act which contains a series of such definitions, and practical people—not only lawyers, but lots of people who are dealing with these things—know that if you turn to the Interpretation Act, you are looking to the dictionary, where you will find, for instance, what a board of guardians is, what a Poor Law union is, and so on. It seems to me to be a question whether it is right to bury your dictionary in an ordinary Statute, where hereafter it may be very difficult to find it.
If you go to the Library here and want to look up the meaning of a word, you ask for the shelf where the dictionaries are, but you would be very greatly puzzled if you had to look through the whole Library, knowing that somewhere or other there was a definition of this term and the only practical point of view is this: Granted that the Interpretation Act is an excellent thing, which saves a great deal of print and time and contains much more in the way of definition than the hon. and learned Member for South-East Leeds seemed to think—it defines not only singular and plural, but concrete things like boards of guardians, as every lawyer knows—the question is, Is it a good plan to put this little bit of your dictionary in a place where it may be rather difficult for people to find it?
I feel some diffidence in opposing the views which have been put forward by my right hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) and also by the late Solicitor-General, the hon. and learned Member for South-East Leeds (Sir H. Slesser), speaking as they did with such great authority on this legal matter. I can only speak of my experience of the law as a member of what is called the lower branch of the profession, so called, I suppose, because its fees are lower than those of the other branch. I suggest to the House that there is some merit in this proposal which the hon. and learned Member seeks to eliminate. It is perfectly true that this is not a matter of any great moment. It is rather one of those matters which delight the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite, but I think it is a matter of convenience to provide, if we can, for a regular definition of such words as are referred to in this Bill—the words, for instance, "rating authority." What really is the practical objection to saying that hereafter, unless otherwise defined in an Act of Parliament
I am confronted with the suggestion that that is all very well, but that there you have a library and that you know where to go for that book, that in the Interpretation Act that is a convenient way to do it, but that it is very difficult for any learned counsel to remember or to think of the Rating and Valuation (Apportionment) Act, 1928. The hon. and learned Member for South-East Leeds said, "The Interpretation Act is no precedent at all, and unless you can find some precedent in relation to this matter dealing, not with the Interpretation Act, but with an ordinary Act of Parliament, I have no use for this definition at all." He committed himself on the last occasion, I believe, to saying that if we could find a precedent for him, his position would be untenable. I am glad to say that we have made some researches since then, and those researches rather confirm the view which my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health adopted on the last occasion, that this is not an inconvenient method of dealing with the matter.
I asked the right hon. Gentleman last time, and he told me there were no precedents. Later, he said there was the precedent of the Interpretation Act, but when I asked the third time for a precedent, the right hon. Gentleman was unable to discover it.
I am not the hon. and learned Member's "devil"; I can tell him that. What I told him on the last occasion was that I knew at that moment of no precedent, but he has been spending a great deal of time and labour on this matter, which I suppose has occupied his thoughts for many days, and he has told us this afternoon that this is a new method of definition and experiment. I hope that view will not get to the Temple, or it might affect his reputation there, because if he will look, he will find in the definition Section of the Summary Jurisdiction Act, 1879, the same precedent there. It says:
"In this Act and in any future Act,"
and then certain definitions follow. If he will look at another Act, with which I know he is familiar, and that is the County Courts Act, 1888, Section 186, he will see that it commences:
"In construing this Act or any future Act relating to County Courts,"
and so on. In Section 21 (3) of the Local Government Act, 1894, it provides:
"In this and every other Act of Parliament, unless the context otherwise requires, the expression 'district council' shall include the council of every urban district, whether a borough or not, and of every rural district, and the expression 'county district ' shall include every urban and rural district whether a borough or not."
I do not want to continue to improve the hon. and learned Member's legal education on this matter, but I suggest that at any rate I have satisfied him that we are following what are valuable and useful precedents.
I support the Amendment. There is not the least doubt that it is quite within the law to frame the Clause in this way. We are told that it has been done in two or three Acts of Parliament, and we all know that it has been done in the Interpretation Act, but does that say that it is advisable to do it in this way in this Bill? What is the Interpretation Act? It is an Act to deal with phrases and other things that are more or less common, and, therefore, when a person wants to know what is meant by the terms "Poor Law union" or "board of guardians," he goes to the dictionary, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon), who is, of course, a past master in these matters, called it. If you really think it a convenient thing to put the rating authority into a dictionary, do it by amending the Interpretation Act, but where the confusion arises is to define a rating authority for now and in all future legislation in an Act of Parliament of whose existence you get no hint from the Interpretation Act or from any other Statute whatsoever. Nobody has made the point that it cannot legally be done; the point is that it is not a proper thing to do. What do you gain by it? I do not know.
It is a very unfortunate thing to start with this more or less new practice in this Bill, which we hear is going to be a monument and to out-last all our memories, for in this very Bill the confusion arises that we want to guard against in future. In this very Bill it says that agricultural land means agricultural land including sporting rights. In a previous Act, the Act of 1925, and in the Agricultural Rates Act, agricultural land means agricultural land without sporting rights, so that what we are saying is this: May not that be done with rating authorities that has brought about the confusion with regard to agricultural land?
Suppose that in the future some Government wants to introduce a Bill, and for the convenience of that particular Measure it gives an artificial meaning to the words "rating authority." When it comes to be considered before a Judge, he says, "We have the meaning of a rating authority here; it is defined in this Act." "But," learned counsel may point out, "there is a definition in the Act of 1928. In that old Act 'rating authority' means something totally different from what we are told it means in this new Act." "Yes," the Judge says, "but we will give to rating authority' in the later Act the meaning that it has been given there." "But," says counsel, "we are told in the previous Act that whatever the later Act says, it shall mean what the previous Act says." There will be the trouble. What is gained by bringing about all that trouble? Why not go in the ordinary way and say that a rating authority means what you say it means in this Bill, and then leave matters as they are? I submit that this is quite justifiable, but it is a departure that really has nothing at all to recommend it.
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
The House divided: Ayes, 270: Noes, 142.
Division No. 293.] AYES. [6.45 p.m. Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Brocklebank, C. E. R. Cooper. A. Duff Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Cope, Major Sir William Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Couper, J. B. Allen, Sir J. Sandeman Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Buchan, John Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islingtn N.) Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Buckingham, Sir H. Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim) Apsley, Lord Bullock, Captain M. Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Atholl, Duchess of Burman, J. B. Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) Balfour, George (Hampstead) Burton, Colonel H. W. Curzon, Captain Viscount Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Dalkeith, Earl of Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Caine, Gordon Hall Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) Campbell, E. T. Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovill) Bann, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Carver, Major W. H. Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- Cassels, J. D. Davies, Dr. Vernon Berry, Sir George Cautley, Sir Henry S. Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Bethel, A. Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Dean, Arthur Wellesley Betterton, Henry B. Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt, R.(Prtsmth.3.) Drewe, C. Bevan, S. J. Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Eden, Captain Anthony Birchall, Major J. Dearman Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir. J. A. (Birm., W.) Edmondson, Major A. J. Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Elliot, Major Walter E. Blundell. F. N. Chapman, Sir S. Ellis, R. G. Boothby, R. J. G. Christle, J. A. England, Colonel A Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Churchman, Sir Arthur C. Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart Clarry, Reginald George Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Brass, Captain W. Cobb Sir Cyril Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) Brassey, Sir Leonard Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Everard, W. Lindsay Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George Falle, Sir Bertram G. Briggs, J. Harold Cohen, Major J. Brunel Fermoy, Lord Briscoe, Richard George Collox, Major Wm Phillips Flelden, E. B. Brittain, Sir Harry Conway, Sir W. Martin Ford, Sir P. J. Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Lowe, Sir Francis William Sanders, Sir Robert A. Forrest, W. Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Sanderson, Sir Frank Fraser, Captain Ian Lynn, Sir R. J. Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Frece, Sir Walter de MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Savery, S. S. Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Gadle, Lieut.-Col. Anthony McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus Shepperson, E. W. Galbraith, J. F. W. MacIntyre, Ian Skelton. A. N. Gates, Percy McLean, Major A. Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kine'dlne. C.) Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Macmillan, Captain H. Smith-Carington, Neville W. Glyn, Major R. G. C. Macquisten, F. A. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Grace, John MacRobert, Alexander M. Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Grant, Sir J. A. Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel. Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Makins, Brigadier-General E. Stanley, Lord (Fylde) Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn Stanley, Hon. O. F. G.(Westm'eland) Grotrian, H. Brent Margesson, Capt. D. Steel, Major Samuel Strang Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Storry-Deans, R Gunston, Captain D. W. Meller, R. J. Streatfelld, Captain S. R. Hacking, Douglas H. Merriman, Sir F. Boyd Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Hall, Lieut-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Meyer, Sir Frank Styles, Captain H. Walter Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Hamilton, Sir George Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Harland, A. Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Tasker, R. Inigo. Harrison, G. J. C. Moore, Sir Newton J. Templeton, W. P. Hartington, Marquess of Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Haslam, Henry C. Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd, Henley) Nelson, Sir Frank Titchfield, Major the Marquess of Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Neville, Sir Reginald J. Tryon, Rt Hon. George Clement Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough Hills. Major John Waller Nicholson, O. (Westminster) Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G.(Ptrsf'ld.) Waddington. R. Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert Ward. Lt-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) Holt, Captain H. P. Nuttall, Ellis Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh Waterhouse, Captain Charles Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Pennefather, Sir John Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley) Hopkins, J. W. W. Penny, Frederick George Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) Hopkinson, Sir A (Eng. Universities) Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Watts, Sir Thomas Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Perkins, Colonel E. K. Wells, S. R. Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple- Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) Wiggins, William Martin Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis Pitcher, G. Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer Pliditch, Sir Philip Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) Hurd, Percy A. Power, Sir John Cecil Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) Hurst, Gerald B. Preston, William Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Price, Major C. W. M. Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) Iveagh, Countess of Radford, E. A. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Raine, Sir Walter Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Jephcott, A. R. Ramsden, E. Withers, John James Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Rawson, Sir Cooper Wolmer, Viscount Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) Reid, D. D. (County Down) Womersley, W. J. Kindersley, Major G. M. Remer, J. R. Wood. E.(Chest'r. Stalyb'dge & Hyde) King, Commodore Henry Douglas Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) Woodcock, Colonel H. C. Lamb. J. Q. Robinson, Sir T. (Lanc., Stretford) Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich) Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. Little. Dr, E. Graham Russell, Alexander West Tynemouth) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Locker-Lampson, Com. O. Handsw'th) Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Captain Bowyer and Captain Looker, Herbert William Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Wallace. Lougher, Lewis Sandeman, N. Stewart
NOES. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Crawford. H. E Harney, E. A. Alexander. A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Dalton, Hugh Harris, Percy A. Ammon, Charles George Dennison, R. Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Attlee, Clement Richard Dunnico, H. Henderson. Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Baker, Walter Fenby, T. D. Hirst, G. H. Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Gardner. J. P. Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Barnes, A. Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. Hollins, A. Barr, J. Gibbins, Joseph Hore-Bellsha, Leslie Broad, F. A. Gillett, George M. Hudson. J. H. (Huddersfield) Bromley, J. Gosling, Harry Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Brown, Ernest (Leith) Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Buchanan, G. Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) John, William (Rhondda, west) Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Charleton, H. C. Griffith, F. Kingsley Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Cluse, W. S. Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypoti, Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Groves, T Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Compton, Joseph Grundy. T. W. Jones, W. N. (Carmarthen) Connolly, M. Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Kelly. W. T. Cove, W. G. Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydyll) Kennedy, T Kirkwood, D. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Sutton, J. E. Lansbury, George Riley, Ben Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Lawrence, Susan Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) Lawson, John James Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. A., Elland) Thorne. W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Lee, F. Runciman, Hilda (Cornwall, St. Ives) Thurtle, Ernest Lindley, F. W. Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter Tomlinson, R. P. Livingstone, A. M. Saklatvala, Shapurji Townend, A. E. Longbottom, A. W. Salter, Dr. Alfred Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. Loath, T. Scrymgeour, E. Viant, S. P. Lunn, William Sexton, James Watson, W. M.(Dunfermline) Mackinder, W. Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas(Preston) Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Shiels, Dr. Drummond Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah March, S. Shinwell, E. Wellock, Wilfred Maxton, James Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Westwood, J. Morris, R. H. Sitch, Charles H. Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. Morrison, R. C.(Tottenham, N.) Slesser, Sir Henry H. Wilkinson, Ellen C. Naylor, T. E. Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Williams, David (Swansea, E) Oliver, George Harold Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly) Owen, Major G. Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Williams, T.(York, Don Valley) Palin, John Henry Snell, Harry Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) Paling, W. Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip Wilson, R. J.(Jarrow) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Stamford, T. W. Windsor, Walter Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Stephen, Campbell Wright, W. Ponsonby, Arthur Stewart, J.(St. Rollox) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Potts, John S. Strauss, E. A. Purcell, A. A. Sullivan, J. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Mr. Hayes and Mr. Whiteley.
CLAUSE 9.—(Application to Scotland.)
I beg to move, to leave out the Clause.
Having concluded an exhibition of the English type of mind dealing with crossword puzzles, and making fun of the most serious kind of legislation, we now come to deal with a nation and the claims of a nation, a nation which is misrepresented by the present Secretary of State for Scotland. Last time I spoke on this subject, the Secretary of Stale said that I was trying to refuse money going into Scotland. That was a cheap and stupid remark to make, because you could not convince any party of Scottish people that either he or I would refuse money going into Scotland. He would have to find some other form of argument. When he speaks of money going to Scotland, he has to realise that he is speaking as a man who sold Scotland and tried to make them believe that they were getting money for nothing. The Secretary of State will be known as the man who took bribes in order to sell out the things which Scotland reveres. The public authorities have to be turned out, and everything has to be lined up with what is called England. We have been hearing that we do not require a dictionary any more, and that all we have to do now is to buy the Bills passed by this Tory Government, in order to find definitions far and above those to be found in any standard dictionary.
The Secretary of State for Scotland presumes to try to make it appear that the money he is getting for selling Scotland is something that is going to Scotland. One would think, to hear him talk, that Scotland pays no rates or taxes, and that Scotland was something hanging on to the tail of something else. He knows better than anybody that Scotland gives much more to England than it gets from Scotland. All that is contained in the White Paper cannot take place until this Bill goes through. On what is the White Paper based? The Secretary of State has not based it on the working of his burgh council. It is based on the rural districts in the Highlands, which have no comparison at all with the big areas on the main lines, and he is coming forward to try to make out a Scottish case and sell Scotland for something that is not true as far as Scotland is concerned. It is true of some islands and districts like them, but it is not the whole case. The Secretary of State proposes that the infirmaries are not to be considered. I wonder sometimes if he really considers the history of his own country. Why should the infirmaries be left out of consideration? The Scottish infirmaries have been producers. They have produced doctors, for instance. You have the name of Lister, one of the biggest names to-day in medicine. The infirmaries are left out of consideration, infirmaries that produced Lister, to whom London thought it worth while to put up a memorial.
7.0 p.m.
While the Government will not consider the infirmaries where they heal people and deal with alcoholism, they are pre-Fared to de-rate Johnny Dewar and Johnny Walker and the others who bring a great number of patients to these institutions. Johnny Walker is apparently going to come first in the right hon. Gentleman's mind. He is to be kept going strong. As long as you have a Tory Government, booze will always go strong. They are built on booze, and live by booze. It is going to be de-rating for booze and a flag-day for the infirmaries. You have only to stand in those infirmaries for a few hours and see what is taking place. You will see people brought in broken from the industrial battlefield, and the Listers are there now ready to heal them. [ Interruption. ] The Secretary of State for Scotland is now trying by this Bill to uproot a basic element in our law, and to bring us into line with the system in England. In Scotland, when we assessed for rating, we assessed the land separately, but the Secretary of State is out to sell us again by putting the two together. What does that mean? It means that you give the landlord a further opportunity of swindling the man who is making improvements. By putting these two together, you blend the efforts of the two individuals, and the landlord can say that he did the improvements, because the Bill has wiped out that which the other man did. If you had kept them separate, you would be able to de-rate the man who did something and to increase the rates of the man who did nothing. As the law stands now, we have the power of considering whether the tenant has made the improvement. Under the English system, you cannot.
Take the question I put to-day with regard to this change in the law. In England the owners do not pay rates; in Scotland, the owners halve the rates with the occupiers. I asked to-day whether the sum which the Secretary of State for Scotland says is to be given lack by this Bill is going to find its way back to those people whose rents were increased because rates were said to be too high. He admits the rates became the basis of an increase in rent. He admits that an increase in rent was allowed, because the owners said that the rates were too high. I asked him to-day if an equivalent reduction was going to find its way back to those who have had their rents increased because of increased rates. He said that he could not possibly do that. It is because he stands for filling the pockets of the landlord and householder every time. We were told that in Glasgow it would mean the equivalent of 3¾. This is not going to find its way back to the people who have to pay it in extra rent, but is going to be another present to those who have houses to rent. I am surprised that none of the hon. Members opposite are shouting out that this only deals with de-rating of industry. They could shout that out when we were dealing with the English question, but not when I am dealing with the Scottish question, because the change in the law which is involved here means much more than can be gathered by reading the Bill or by listening to the speeches made in efforts to explain it.
Take the question of docks. We have heard so much about docks in England that no one would think that there was such a place as Scotland with water about it at all. Take Leith, Glasgow, Dundee, and Aberdeen, all areas with big docks. Take the Clyde Trust of Glasgow controlling the docks on the River Clyde. What is going to happen if this Bill goes through? Are we going to have the Clyde Trust getting up against the Glasgow Town Council on various points of responsibility, financial and otherwise? None of the Scottish Members on the Front Bench has ever approached this question with reference to docks. Of course, I know that the Secretary for Scotland cannot stand too much. He would like to have the House of Commons arguing what is meant by "primarily" or "substantially" That would be something of a sunday school debate, but, when one comes down to realities he is not able to stand it, and he goes out. We have two hon. Members opposite who are legal luminaries and they must be feeling very sore with regard to what is taking place in this Bill. The legal minds in Scotland have always been noted for their logic and power of using words to carry their meanings. There is something very unusual about "primarily" or "substantially" In Scottish law, we have always had words that definitely told us what a thing was. Suppose the Clyde Trust gets up against the town council, about some case down at the docks, where you have a steamer tying up at a particular spot, a steamer which is a pleasure steamer carrying passengers for two months of the year but is used mostly for goods. The question will then arise whether it is primarily or substantially one or the other. That is all very well for making cases for lawyers, but for clear definite language it absolutely fails. We can tell in Scotland, when we are left alone, whether a thing is a dock or not. We do not need "primarily" or "substantially" brought in.
This is another way in which the Secretary for Scotland has been very remiss so far as Scotland is concerned. He has allowed himself to be used by this Government, and I am surprised that his private secretary has not put up a better fight. It is a horrible thing to think about Scotsmen selling us out in this way. When I was here to-day listening to the cross-word puzzle Debate, I thought of the days when the Irishmen were in this House, and I thought that, if the Scotsmen had the same spirit as the Irishmen, they would have intimidated the business of the House rather than allow this Bill to pass. We used to sing songs about the claymore and the pipes.
Clay pipes.
In conclusion, I say that I move the rejection of this Clause in the interests of the whole of Scotland. If the Government were sincere about Scotland, they would not seek, first of all, to alter its law. They would not seek to impose on it these things which are foreign to it. They would not take roundabout methods that seemed to give something, while they knew all the time that the money went into the pockets of the landlord. If the Government had been sincere in trying to help Scotland, they would have seen that the rent system in Scotland was dealt with in the proper way. They would have seen to it that, instead of men with no highways paying 12s. 6d. to get a cow across to the mainland, the people on the islands got the same opportunities as those on the mainland so far as transport is concerned. If the Government had been sincere about Scottish industry, they would not have de-rated in a way that will mean that the money will go where it does go under this Bill. They would have dealt with industry as an organisation. This Bill is not going to do anything to increase demand in the country. It is simply playing with fire. The Scottish people are perhaps slow to rouse, but, once roused, are always to be depended upon to give their answer. As soon as we get time to go round with the fiery cross and as soon as the Government go to those parts of Scotland to seek their suffrages, they will find that the people will give them cause to think of the quickest means of transport to get clear.
I beg to second the Amendment.
It is perhaps a little ironical that a Member representing an English seat should find himself in the position of seconding this Motion, but I do so be cause of many years of experience and work in connection with Scottish rating in the past, and I am bound to say, when one looks at Clause 9, one begins to wonder if, indeed, the Scottish identity in these matters has ceased to exist. One cannot help feeling that the present Minister of Health is nothing more nor less than a sort of vocal instrument for the Chancellor and the permanent officials behind the scenes. It is the more true when one comes to the Scottish Regulations laid down in the Bill. In this matter of rating and rating law, Scotland has always been about 100 years ahead of England. The Scottish people took rating questions much more seriously than did the English, with the result that we were well ahead in our ideas of rating, and of the procedure which ought to be instituted to remove the pressure of rates from industry and give an impetus to industry to develop. The Scottish part of the Bill is nothing more or less than a pocket edition of the English part, and it is astounding to find that Scottish Members on both sides of the House have taken this matter so complacently. The hon. Member for Springburn (Mr. Hardie) has been exerting a, certain measure of self-control, but there was a latent disposition towards an outburst_ However, one would have thought that all Scottish Members of this House would have demanded an independent Bill for Scotland to deal with rating reform.
The English law under this Bill will absolve agriculturists from paying rates on the land, though they will be obliged to pay rates on their houses. We know that the Scottish people are more inclined to rebellion when they are asked for money than when they are asked for anything else, and I wonder what they will say when they are told that the Secretary of State for Scotland has laid it down that even if they have a piece of land with no buildings on it they shall be obliged to pay rates upon one-sixth of the gross annual value. In England, if that land were vacant and without improvements, the agriculturist would not be obliged to pay anything. I do not think that is honest dealing. If the owners of agricultural heritages are to be required to pay something, let it be definitely stated that all shall be on an equal footing: but they ought to pay in respect of the house and not in respect of the land. The Scottish Secretary, however, was very definite the other day, and said he was quite determined, irrespective of differentiation between land and improvements, to compel Scottish agriculturists to pay one-sixth of the gross annual value.
A right hon. Gentleman below the Gangway raised the question of crofters, and I would like to ask the Lord Advocate, if he is going to speak, whether he will give me some idea of what is going to happen with regard to such Acts as the Crofters Act, 1886, once this Bill becomes law. Will this Bill in any way affect the conditions existing under the Crofters Act? Will the crofters be called upon to pay something? I see that it is indicated from the Treasury Bench that they will not. Then I will take another point. Will they be obliged to pay upon one-sixth of the gross annual value, and, if so, is that a normal procedure having regard to the Crofters Act, 1886? In other words, does Clause 9 of this Bill institute a novel procedure and violate the right which crofters had under the old Act? I wish the Secretary of State for Scotland would say something, because an assurance is required on that matter. It has been one of the proud boasts of the Scottish people that they had this Crofters Act, which was a precedent and a distinct landmark in the Statute Book, indicating the tendency of Scottish development in rating reform.
But coming back to the principal question, I would like to ask the Secretary of State or any hon. Member opposite representing a Scottish Division if he can honestly say that Clause 9 is the crystalisation of all that has heretofore been expressed by Scottish movements which have demanded rating reform? Have they asked for subsidies l Have they asked for block grants Have they said that the only way to secure rating reform was to abolish, or at least to curtail, the work of local authorities and to bring them more under the centralised bureaucracy of London in return for receiving this subsidy of 75 per cent.? I wish the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) had been in his place, because I can recall a classical incident in which he was involved when he should have done his duty as a leader of a great Liberal party. He had told the people that he was going to return the land to them, and they were beginning to discover that he had no hopes of doing it and never dreamed of doing it. I well remember in 1911 and 1912, when the Scottish land and rating reformers began to suspect that the Chancellor of the Exchequer of that day was likely to deviate along the lines laid down in this Clause 9. Glasgow promoted a Land Valuation Bill, there were meetings of important bodies like the Scottish Liberal Federation and then the Scottish local rating authorities called a. conference which lasted more than a week and promoted the Scottish Land Valuation Bill. All this was done with a view to arriving one day at the position where Scottish rating authorities would have the power to use the site values of their various areas ae a basis for rating. That was the tendency and the whole demand. [ Interruption. ] I heard the voice of Chinese eggs a minute ago.
May I recall to the Secretary of State the work carried on by the predecessor of the right hon. and learned Gentleman, Lord Strathclyde, when he had to submit to this House the findings of his inquiry in 1906? There he laid it down—and he had brought before him men who did not agree with his party, men who were utterly opposed to the ideas that he was supporting on the public platform—that the general consensus of Scottish opinion at that time was that rating reform should be along the lines not of subsidies or of increased block grants but of a reform which would remove the rates as far as possible from improvements effected in the city, and improvements effected by farmers on their farms, and de-rate the improvements effected by tenants and occupiers of composite settlements. But apparently Scotsmen have now become mute. I am one of those who has been in this fight for more years than I care to count. I have been in it not because of any political kudos attaching to it, but because of a belief that our plan was the only scientific way of solving the menacing problem of rates, and because in the city from which I come, the City of Glasgow, we could boast of the finest slums in Europe and were faced with housing conditions which were growing steadily worse. We were associated with campaigns which did not demand the scheme that is in this Bill. We demanded quite another form of rating entirely, which I dare not mention without getting out of order, but which was entirely divorced from this system. The net result of the present rating reform will be one complication after another, differentiation between the same types of
property, local difficulties arising between. local authorities and rating authorities, and endless difficulties in the Law Courts—all this in preference to going along the old, simple, clear road indicated by Scottish agitations in the past. The present Minister representing Scotland in this House has closed his eyes to the demands of his fellow countrymen in the past. He has now subsided quietly beside the Minister of Health, and both of them are overshadowed by the inventing mind of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the chief officials behind him, who will now give Scotland not rating reform but a quagmire of legal procedure, legal difficulties and costs but will not solve the problem we are hoping to solve. For that reason I am supporting the deletion of this Clause.
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out, to the end of line 9. page 10, stand part of the Bill."
The House divided: Ayes, 307; Noes, 125.
Division No. 294.] AYES. [7.28 p.m. Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Burton, Colonel H. W. Erskine. Lord (Somerset, Weston. s.-M.) Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Caine, Gordon Hall Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Campbell, E. T. Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) Allen, Sir J. Sandeman Carver, Major W. H. Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Cassels, J. D Everard, W. Lindsay Ashley. Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Falle, Sir Bertram G. Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) Cayzer. Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.) Fanshawe, Captain G. D. Atholl, Duchess of Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Fenby, T. D. Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.) Fermoy, Lord Balfour, George (Hampstead) Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Fielden, E. B. Barclay-Harvey, C. M Chapman, Sir S. Finburgh, S. Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Christie, J. A. Ford, Sir P. J. Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Forestler-Walker, Sir L. Bellairs, Commander Carlyon Churchman, Sir Arthur C. Forrest, W. Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Clarry, Reginald George Fraser, Captain Ian Bennett, A. J. Cobb, Sir Cyril Frece, Sir Waiter de Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E Berry, Sir George Cohen, Major J. Brunel Gadle, Lieut.-Col. Anthony Bethel, A. Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Galbraith. J. F. W. Betterton, Henry B. Conway, Sir W. Martin Ganzonl, Sir John Bevan, S. J. Cooper, A. Duff Gates, Percy Birchall, Major J. Dearman Cope, Major Sir William Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Bird, E. R. (Yorks. W. R., Skipton) Couper, J. B. Glyn, Major R. G. C. Blundell, F. N. Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.) Goff, Sir Park Boothby, R. J. G. Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim) Gower, Sir Robert Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) Grace, John Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart Crawford, H. E. Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B. Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Grant, Sir J. A. Brass, Captain W. Crooke. J. Smedley (Derltend) Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Brassey, Sir Leonard Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter Briant, Frank Curzon, Captain Viscount Greene, W. P. Crawford Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Dalkeith, Earl of Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Briggs, J. Harold Davidson, Major-General Sir John H. Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John Briscoe, Richard George Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Griffith, F. Kingsley Brocklebank, C. E. R Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) Grotrian, H. Brent Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Davies, Dr. Vernon Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Broun, Lindsay, Major H. Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Gunston, Captain D. W. Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham) Dean, Arthur Wellesley Hacking, Douglas H. Brown, Ernest (Leith) Drewe, C. Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Buchan, John Eden, Captain Anthony Hamilton, Sir George Buckingham, Sir H. Edmondson, Major A. J. Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Bullock, Captain M. Elliot, Major Walter E. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan Ellis, R. G. Harland, A. Burman, J. B. England, Colonel A. Harris, Percy A. Harrison, G. J. C. Meller, R. J. Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Calthness) Hartington, Marquess of Merriman. Sir F. Boyd Skelton, A. N. Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) Meyer, Sir Frank Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dlne, C.) Haslam, Henry C. Mitchell. S. (Lanark, Lanark) Smith-Carington, Neville W. Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd, Henley) Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Henn, Sir Sydney H Moore, Sir Newton J. Sprot, Sir Alexander Hennessy. Major Sir G. R. J. Morris, R. H. Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. Hills, Major John Waller Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) Stanley, Lord (Fylde) Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Morrison-Bell. Sir Arthur Clive Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) Hobler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy Nelson, Sir Frank Steel, Major Samuel Strang Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Neville, Sir Reginald J. Storry-Deans, R. Holt, Capt. H. P. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Strauss. E. A. Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Streatfelld, Captain S. R. Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Nicholson, O. (Westminster) Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Hopkins, J. W. W. Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hon. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld) Styles, Captain H. Walter Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Nuttall, Ellis Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh Tasker, R. Inigo. Hudson, Capt. A U. M. (Hackney, N.) Oman, Sir Charles William C. Templeton, W. P. Hudson. R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) Owen, Major G. Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) Hume, Sir G. H. Pennefather, Sir John Thompson. Luke (Sunderland) Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- Hurd, Percy A. Perkins, Colonel E. K. Thorne. G. R. (Wolverhampton. E.) Hurst, Gerald B. Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Titchfield, Major the Marquess of Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Peto, G. (Somerset, Frame) Tomlinson, R. P. Iveagh, Countess of Pilcher, G Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cenl) Pilditch, Sir Philip Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough Jephcott, A. R. Power, Sir John Cecil Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Preston, William Waddington. R. Jones, W. N. (Carmarthen) Price, Mojor C. W. M. Wallace, Captain D. E. Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) Radford, E. A. Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) King, Commodore Henry Douglas Raine, Sir Walter Warner Brigadier-General W. W. Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Ramsden, E. Warrender, Sir Victor Lamb, J. Q. Rawson Sir Cooper Waterhouse, Captain Charles Lane Fox, Col, Rt. Hon. George R Reid, D. D. (County Down) Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otleyl Leigh. Sir John (Clapham) Remer. J. R. Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. Watts, Sir Thomas Little, Dr. E. Graham Roberts. E. H. G. (Flint) Wells, S. R. Livingstone, A. M. Robinson. Sir T. (Lancs, Stretford) White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple Looker, Herbert William Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Wiggins, William Martin Lougher, Lewis Ropner, Major L. Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) Lowe, Sir Francis William Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Russel, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) Lynn, Sir R. J. Rye, F. G Williams Herbert G. (Reading) MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Salmon, Major I. Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Fernham) Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Macintyre, Ian Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl McLean, Major A. Sandeman, N. Stewart Withers. John James Macmillan, Captain H. Sanders, Sir Robert A. Wolmer, Viscount Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Sanderson, Sir Frank Womersley. W. J. Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Sandon, Lord Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde) Macquisten, F. A. Sassoon, Sir Phillip Albert Gustave D Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley MacRobert, Alexander M. Savery, S. S. Woodcock, Colonel H. C. Maitland, A (Kent, Faversham) Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie Worthington-Evans. Rt. Hon. Sir L. Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. Makins, Brigadier-General E. Shepperson, E. W. Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich) Margesson, Captain D. Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down) Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Captain Bowyer and Mr. Penny.
NOES Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Connolly, M. Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Cove, W. G. Hayday, Arthur Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Dalton, Hugh Hayes, John Henry Ammon, Charles George Dennison, R. Henderson, Rt Hon. A. (Burnley) Attlee, Clement Richard Dunnico, H. Hirst, G. H. Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Gardner, J. P. Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Baker, Walter Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. Hollins, A. Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Gibbins, Joseph Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Barnes, A. Gillett, George M. Jenkins. W. (Glamorgan, Heath) Barr, J. Gosling, Harry John, William (Rhondda, West) Batey, Joseph Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Broad, F. A. Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertwon) Bromley, J. Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Griffiths, T (Monmouth, Pontypool) Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Buchanan, G. Groves. T Kelly. W. T. Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel Grundy, T. W. Kennedy, T. Charleton. H. C. Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Kirkwood, D Cluse, W. S. Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Lansbury, George Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Hardie, George D Lawrence, Susan Compton, Joseph Harney, E. A. Lawson, John James Lee. F. Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland) Townend, A. E. Lindley, F. W. Salter, Dr. Alfred Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P Lowth, T. Scrymgeour. E. Vlant, S. P. Lunn, William Scurr, John Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon) Sexton, James Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Mackinder, W. Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney MacLaren, Andrew Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Shiels, Dr. Drummond Wellock, Wilfred Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Shinwell, E. Westwood, J March, S. Snort, Alfred (Wednesbury) Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Sitch, Charles H. Wilkinson, Ellen C. Murnin, H. Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Williams, David (Swansea, East) Oliver, George Harold Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Palin, John Henry Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Paling, W. Snell, Harry Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Stamford, T. W. Windsor, Walter Ponsonby, Arthur Stephen, Campbell Wright, W. Potts, John S. Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Purcell, A. A. Sullivan, J. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Sutton. J. E. TELLERS FOR THE NOES— Riley, Ben Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Mr. T. Henderson and Mr. Whiteley. Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) Thurtle, Ernest
It being after half-past Seven of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER proceeded, pursuant to the Order of the House of 28th June, successively to put forthwith the Questions on any Amendments moved by the Government of which notice had been given.
Amendments made:
In page 10, line 9, at the end, insert the words:
"(4) Paragraph ( c ) of Sub-section (1) of Section five of this Act shall have effect as if there were added after the word 'merchandise' the following words 'or with the provision of accommodation for fishing vessels.'"
In page 11, line 39, after the word "gardens" insert the words:
"and any lands exceeding one-quarter of an acre used for the purpose of poultry farming."—[ Sir J. Gilmour. ]
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
I congratulate the House upon having reached the concluding stage of this Measure, and I will now proceed to a, review of the criticisms that have been made, the objections that have been offered, and the Amendments which have been made in the Bill. I do not think hon. Members opposite will challenge my statement when I say that the Bill has been the subject of very adequate discussion.
Except Clause 3.
There have been nine-and-a-half days devoted to the various stages of this Measure. Many speeches have been made from the point of view of the various interests affected by the Measure, and certainly the important points of the Bill have been subjected to the closest scrutiny, criticism, and survey. The conclusion which I draw from our proceedings is that in the result no substantial alterations have been made in the main principles of the Bill, and Parliament has endorsed generally the proposals which the Government have made. The result is that the Bill remains very much as it was originally introduced, and I suggest that it has stood well the test of criticism and debate. I think that the opposition to a Bill of such first-class importance, raising so many important and new features, has rarely been so lukewarm and lifeless. The resistance to our proposals has been hesitating and halfhearted, and the reasons advanced against the Measure have certainly been most confusing and perplexing. I admit that the Opposition have had several considerable disadvantages. In opposing a Bill of this kind, it frequently happens that a number of Labour and Liberal members spend their mornings supporting deputations to the Chancellor of the Exchequer urging extensions to our proposals, and arguing that the relief given by the Bill should be accelerated in certain directions, whilst in the evening they are engaged in contesting the whole principle of the Bill. That did not amount to a satisfactory opposition to the Bill.
Our discussions will probably be remembered by many of us owing to the speeches made by two Leaders of the parties opposite, who seemed to form a sort of coalition in opposition to this Bill which is perhaps a foretaste of what they may desire in months to come. The ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer delivered a speech upon the text that rates in themselves are not a burden. Very few of us will forget that speech. [HON. MEMBERS: "As such!"] The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden) and his very devoted follower the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Greenwood) have occupied a great deal of time endeavouring to explain away that speech. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) has on occasions visited the House and delivered certain speeches on this Bill. The right hon. Gentleman started by saving that under the whole scheme of the Government he entered upon the prophecy that certain areas would be worse off and certain ratepayers would have their rates put up; and he demanded that he should have produced to him the famous formula which is now contained in the White Paper. I suppose that there never was a more disappointed man than the right hon. Gentleman when he got that formula, because he immediately proceeded to state that he did not understand it. That was probably the most accurate statement he has made, or is likely to make, in relation to this Bill.
A great amount of confused criticism has been directed to these proposals. The right hon. Gentleman the late Chancellor of the Exchequer started by saying that the hope afforded by this Bill to anyone who might be a recipient of relief was practically negligible, while the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs rather betrayed the partnership when he said that the relief afforded by the Measure was so substantial that a portion of it should be immediately expended in relieving the necessitous areas. Both right hon. Gentlemen and both Oppositions were, however, rather unexpectedly united in an Amendment proposing that the relief should be restricted to one year only. Two main and outstanding objections have been directed against the Bill by the Opposition parties. The first has been directed to the relief to agriculture which is foreshadowed in the Measure, and in that opposition we get a particular example of the inconsistency which is always to be found in the attitude of the Socialist party towards agricultural relief. In the first place, the Opposition contended, as a reference to our proceedings will show, that the relief given in the past under the Agricultural Rates Act has not done any good, the effect of other and more potent influences being conveniently ignored by them; and, therefore, they said that the further relief proposed could not do any good either. On the other hand, great anxiety was expressed, I think by the same gentlemen who expressed those sentiments, lest a handsome subsidy should go into the pockets of the landlords; and, on the top of it all, we heard the argument that agriculture did not need relief as much as other industries.
That is another illustration of how liable the Opposition is to be led astray in attempting to square the theories of economic textbooks with the actual circumstances of agriculture and industry to-day, and the manifest and unmistakable desire of industry and agriculture to secure the relief which the Government propose to give them is, I think, pretty well known to everyone in all quarters of the House. I think I can summarise the attitudes of both the Labour and the Liberal parties to the proposed relief to agriculture in words which they themselves have adopted. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for North Norfolk (Mr. Buxton), who was Minister of Agriculture in the Labour Government, described the proposals as bolstering up agriculture by relief from rates, while, as regards the Liberals, I think that on that occasion the hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Mr. Harris) was the leader, and, in dealing with the proposals relating to this relief, he said that we were doing the right thing in the wrong way. I would, however, like, if I might respectfully do so, to pay this compliment to the Labour party, that at any rate they had the courage of their convictions—
We want none of your compliments.
They had the courage of their convictions, and went into the Division Lobby against the proposal; but I did not observe that the hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green, who objected to our doing the right thing in the wrong way, followed the matter up by going into the Division Lobby against us, and that Division list was significant of the fact that no Liberal Member thought that that matter was of sufficient importance to express an opinion upon in that way. At any rate, the House, by a large majority, has approved this considerable aid, and has welcomed the, Government's proposal that the area of relief should be extended to land used for plantations, in the belief that it will considerably encourage and help afforestation. I believe that this further relief which will be given to agriculture as is foreshadowed in this Bill will undoubtedly be of the greatest possible assistance at a most difficult time, and I invite hon. Members opposite to pursue their criticisms and objections in the constituencies.
The second main objection that has been made to these proposals is in regard to the main and dominating principle of the Bill, namely, that relief should be extended only to productive industry. Both Oppositions have challenged the whole conception of the Government in relation to this scheme, and various devices have been adopted in order to put forward opposition to it. It has been done in the name of the distributive trades. The Labour party have invoked the position of the small shopkeepers and householders, and the Liberals have particularly distinguished themselves in relation to the subject of breweries. After the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs had himself stated that assistance to breweries was afforded in the Liberal scheme, and after the hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green had pleaded that the definition of agriculture should be so safeguarded that relief would be given to the hop growers of the country, the tight hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs, and most other Members of the Liberal party, spent what leisure they could afford in the constituencies on Saturday afternoons in denouncing this relief to breweries and distilleries. I think it is a little odd—
Denouncing the preference given to breweries over hospitals and over other industries.
I am coming to the question of hospitals in a minute or two. Numerous Amendments have been moved which would have had no other result than to fritter away the relief and divert it from the real aim and object of the Measure. The Liberal party have particularly distinguished themselves in that respect also, and have outclassed altogether the Members on the Socialist benches, because they proposed an Amendment, which the hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green will no doubt look upon as his great triumph in the way of suggestion in connection with this Bill—an Amendment -which would give relief to some score or so of hereditaments, including cemeteries, burial grounds, sewerage hereditaments, and, I regret to say, also licensed premises. Their idea of approaching this problem was that the relief available should be scattered up and down the cemeteries, burial grounds and licensed premises of the country, and then we were told, as a result of this great plan and scheme, by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs, who at that moment happened to be in charge, that we were voting first of all against relief for open spaces and voluntary hospitals, and that afterwards we should be voting for relief for distilleries and breweries. I do not think that that kind of Opposition will get the Liberal party very far. We saw an illustration of that in our newspapers this morning.
I venture to say that, so far as the distributive trades are concerned, and their case has been very strongly urged upon the House, it has been amply demonstrated that they will prosper most when industries prosper, when we employ more labour, and pay the best wages—[ Interruption ]—while, as regards the small householders and the workers of the country, their standard of life will certainly be most improved and their happiness will be better secured when industry is going full swing again. If the relief were diverted among all these millions—because that is really what it amounts to—the results would be practically negligible. Millions would he spent, industry would not be relieved, and the grave problem of unemployment would still remain. I suggest to the House, when it is coming to a conclusion on the Third Reading of this Bill, that, at any rate so far as regards the two main objections that have been made to the proposals, the Government have withstood the criticism and have amply demonstrated that their scheme is sound and safe.
I should like to indicate very briefly the several important Amendments which have been made and accepted by my right hon. Friend, designed to simplify the machinery of the Measure and facilitate its easy working. The Government, as I think will be agreed by everyone who has taken part in cur Debates, have kept throughout an open mind, and my right hon. Friend has lent a ready ear, as he promised on the Second Reading to do, to any sort of constructive and helpful criticism which might be put forward in the House or from outside for the improvement of this machinery Bill. Provision has been made for the specific inclusion of poultry farms as agricultural hereditaments, and other suggestions which have been made with regard to matters like osier beds, watercress beds, and glasshouses, were also considered with sympathy, and were only rejected because the Government were expressly assured by their advisers that these things were already covered by the definitions as drafted. Amendments have been introduced to deal with another point of difficulty and substance which was pressed upon us by the Federation of British Industries and the Central Valuation Committee, namely, the case of industrial units which, owing to their being cut by local government boundaries, or to some other such accidental circumstances, are legally divided into two or more hereditaments when they would otherwise have been one, with the result that their classification and the apportionment of their values might have been adversely affected. A very valuable Amendment has been made in regard to them. Again, with regard to mines, the criticisms of those who are practically acquainted with the working of the industry have been met, so far as administrative considerations permit, by the Amendment to include mineral railways among the hereditaments eligible for relief, and the Amendment to include in the same category drainage works undertaken for the protection and working of mines.
With regard to freight-transport hereditaments, the Amendments have gone very far—in the case of railways the whole way—to meet the legitimate desires of the undertakers for simplification and for reduction of the time, trouble and expense of discriminating between various parts of their premises: and the process of simplification has been carried as far as is consistent with the reasonable protection of competing interests. Finally, on the administrative side, attention has been given to such of the Amendments on the Paper and of the suggestions received from outside as were directed to simplifying the task to be accomplished before the 1st October, 1929, while at the same time conserving the interests of owners and others who may be affected. I think that this briefly summarises, with the addition of the Amendment that we have made this afternoon, the vital changes that have beers made in the Bill. I commend the Bill to the House as an important part of a great and constructive scheme designed to increase trade, to diminish unemployment, and to bring aid to those areas whose problems have for so long baffled the efforts of successive Governments.
I beg to more, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day three months."
8.0 p.m.
The Parliamentary Secretary, in moving the Third Reading of the Bill, said that the House was deserving of congratulation. There is an old story of a schoolboy who, having visited this House, in an essay explaining its procedure said that at the beginning of the proceedings the Chaplain looked round the House and prayed for the country. That. I think, is the position in which we find ourselves to-night. There is little cause for congratulation, but a good deal of cause for sincere prayer for the country that has been committed to the care of this Government. To prove that our resistance to this Bill is not halfhearted, as has been asserted by the Parliamentary Secretary, we are going so far as to take this feeling against the Bill into the Division Lobby on the Third Reading. Had it not been that the Government have had recourse to throttling and stifling discussion, this Bill would not have been receiving its Third Reading to-night. It is all very well for the Parliamentary Secretary to tell us now that the resistance is half-hearted. The truth is that the resistance was too whole-hearted for the Government, and that it led them to resort to the Closure on a Bill of tremendous importance, with the result that we have been unable to make the case that we should have made had we had adequate time for discussion.
I am glad teat we happen to be taking the Third Reading of the Bill to-night, and I am glad that I am moving the rejection of the Bill to-night, for it happens to be the day when a new colleague of mine has taken his seat in the House. He is the answer to this Bill. Only last Thursday evening, on the eve of the poll at Halifax, the Attorney-General used these words in a last fervent appeal to the electors of Halifax:
The Parliamentary Secretary assured us that there had been adequate discussion of the Bill. In my relatively short experience of the House I cannot remem a Bill on which there were fewer Amendments of a frivolous and unimportant character. Any hon. Member who has scrutinised the Order Paper day by day will agree that almost all the Amendments, from whatever source they came, were Amendments of substance. This Bill is a Bill which makes a fundamental change in the rating system of the country. It is not the kind of Bill on which you could hurriedly force the closure and the guillotine. Yet notwithstanding the far-reaching character of the Bill, not one out of six Amendments on the Paper has been discussed at all. When the Parliamentary Secretary tells us that the important points of the Bill have received adequate discussion, I deny his statement. I say that there are many aspects of this Bill on which hardly a word has been said during its passage through the House.
In spite of that and in spite of the alterations in the Bill, which I am told are not important—believe me, Clauses 5 and 6 are entirely different from what they were on Second Reading—the Bill still remains full of obscurities. "Primarily"! "substantially"!—as the hon. Member for Leith (Mr. E. Brown) pointed out, on the word "primarily" we have had two contradictory statements from the Government Front Bench. I remember the Parliamentary Secretary saying that "primarily" was a question of fact, and I remember the Minister of Health saying that it was not a question of fact but a question of law which had to be interpreted in the Law Courts. What does "primarily" mean? No one knows. It depends on a variety of circumstances which the Court will find it very hard to decide. Whether warehouses are used "substantially" for this, that or the other—"substantially" has still to be defined, in so far as it is used in the Bill. The Bill is still obscure; it is still undiscussed; it is still undigested, and it leaves this House one of the most undigested Measures that ever left here for another place.
But on these Benches we have a further criticism against the procedure on this Bill. Where has the Chancellor of the Exchequer been during the discussions of the Bill? It is all very well for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to come down and deliver a few airy generalisations and then fly away to twitter on the branch of a tree a long way off, but after all he is one of the main authors of this Bill; he first introduced it to the House in his Budget speech, but so far as I remember he has not sat on the Front Bench for five minutes during the discussion of the Bill. On Clauses 1 and 2 we have had important questions affecting land and agricuture. Where has the Minister of Agriculture been? Conspicuous by his absence. On Clauses 5 and 6, where the Minister of Health and the Parliamentary Secretary have been in deep waters and have floundered about in a way that has made me feel sorry for them, where has the Minister of Transport been? We have not even seen him at all. He may have recorded a few silent votes. Why is it that on a Bill which affects the whole transport interests of the country we have not had the advice and the speeches of the Minister of Transport? The Minister of Health on Clauses 5 and 6 has been a most unhappy man. He was obviously out of the depth. I know that the right hon. Gentleman is most versatile, but he was dealing with questions which were outside his purview and experience, and yet we have never had the assistance of the Minister of Transport. I do not think that the Minister of Health and the Parliamentary Secretary ought to have been expected to carry the tremendous burden of this Bill alone and unaided.
As to the Bill itself, our objection to it has been put on this ground—that the basis of the Bill is unsound; that the method of the Bill is wrong; that its administration is over-complicated: and that its ultimate effects will be disastrous both to local authorities and the general body of ratepayers. During the Debates we have had two motives put forward for the Bill. One was that the purpose of the Measure was to classify hereditaments with a view to de-rating, in order to stimulate trade in general, and that assistance was to be given to productive industry as a whole. That was the first leg on which the Government stood. The second leg was that the Bill was designed to deal with necessitous areas. The Minister knows perfectly well that this Bill has nothing whatever to do with necessitous areas. The Bill is concerned only with classifying certain kinds of hereditaments in every part of the country, necessitous and non-necessitous, which are to be de-rated alike, district by district. What the Government wished to do while the Bill was passing was to exploit public feeling about necessitous areas without doing anything in the Bill at all. Then we are told that that scheme will come on in another Bill in the Autumn. When the time comes we shall be prepared to argue the matter and to show that that Bill is as shoddy as the present Bill in its structure and purpose.
You have not seen the Bill.
We have not seen the Bill, but we have seen the memorandum, and the memorandum is good enough for me. Moreover, I have seen the formula, and I happen to be one of the few persons who can understand it. How is the Government going alternatively to stimulate trade or come to the assistance of the necessitous areas" By totally de-rating agricultural land and buildings, by de-rating industry whether it is necessitous or not and whether it is highly prosperous or not, and whether it is safeguarded and protected or not—as regards three-fourths of its rates, and to de-rate certain kinds of transport on the large assumption that the permanent and ultimate effect of that will be for the benefit of users of transport. That is what the Bill proposes. But there are a very large number of people to whom it gives no kind of direct relief at all. The great body of householders in the country receive, as householders, not one penny. The great body of shopkeepers and all those who are engaged in the distributive trades receive not one penny. It is no use the Government now discovering that the little shopkeeper is not of any use productively. They have lived on the little shopkeeper politically; they have been proud to say that the little tradesman was carrying part of the economic machine of the country. But to-day they exclude him and the large shopkeeper and the wholesale trader from the operation of the Measure.
They have cut out entirely every kind of commercial road transport, even where it is carried on by firms which are to be de-rated as industrial enterprises. They have cut out from the operation of the Bill—and the Government were very unhappy about it last night—the public supply services. Those people who are cut out amongst them pay at least three-quarters of the rates paid in this country. In other words, all the benefits are to be given by this classification of hereditaments for de-rating purposes to people who pay a quarter of the rates. That is what, no doubt, the Minister of Health meant when he said last night that the benefits of the Government scheme must be concentrated and not frittered away on all classes of the community. Let me examine how this relief is going to be used and see whether, as a matter of fact, it is not going to be frittered away. In the case of land we are told the remission of the last quarter of the rates will do a great deal for a depressed industry. We have tried to show, and we have never been adequately answered, that the remissions of rates on agricultural land have not substantially improved the agricultural situation, and within the last few days the Institute of Municipal Treasurers and Accountants, a body which has some experience in these matters, ridiculed the suggestion that agriculture had been overrated in the past and that, with the remission of the last quarter of taxation, any beneficial results would accrue. As a matter of fact, agriculture is underrated, and has been for a long time. I understand the rateable value of all farm houses, farm cottages and farm buildings in England and Wales is only slightly over £2,000,000, and the cost of replacing them would be in the region of £400,000,000. If that is so, obviously agricultural land, buildings and so on are to-day underrated and not over-rated, and we have had not a shadow of proof that the effect of the remission of the last quarter of the rates will do anything substantial for the industry.
But while this proposal has been taking shape and going through the House, other changes have been taking place. In the Rating and Valuation Act passed some time ago, provision was made for new assessments. I have in my possession an actual rate book from an area in Gloucestershire which shows what has been happening in the agricultural areas quite recently. Before the present Bill came along land that had been valued at £17 an acre had been assessed again at £6, and land at £10 an acre had been re-assessed at £4, and at the very same time that that was taking place the small cottages of old-age pensioners in these country villages were being re-assessed from £4 5s. to £5, which is as high as the rent these people pay. We have had a good deal of back-chat about hospitals. A hospital in that area has been reassessed at a substantially higher figure, and in the immediate future, while every acre of land in the country and all agricultural buildings are excused from the payment of rates, the process of revaluation is going to put a greater burden on the rank and file of the agricultural workers and the widows and the old age pensioners.
It is no use the hon. Member shaking his head. I am prepared to prove it to him at length if he is willing to hear it, because I have probably a little longer time here this evening than he has. Will anyone deny that at this time there is taking place a re-assessment of rural property which, on the whole, is resulting in the reduction of the rateable value of agricultural land? That does not matter now, because agricultural land is entirely de-rated, but at the same time there is going on an increase in the assessment of agricultural cottages, and the homes of the people in the countryside. I can give case after case of cottages, many of them occupied by old people who are having the utmost difficulty in paying 2s. a week rent, and rates on that amount, and who in the future are going to have to pay a good deal of the burden that is now being taken off the shoulders of the owners of agricultural land. In other words, the effect of this policy on agricultural land is not going to be to assist agriculture, to assist the farm worker, to assist those people who to-day are lucky if they get 35s. a week. It will ultimately put a greater burden on them, and the people who will benefit most from it will be the landlords and the large farmers.
As regards industry, I am told £17,000,000 is to go to the relief of industry. To provide for it the Chancellor of the Exchequer has imposed a tax on petrol, which is estimated to yield in this complete financial year about £14,000,000. But he will lose nearly £3,000,000 because of his decision not to impose a tax on kerosene. That means that in the 12 months from April this year to April next year, he will collect £11,000,000. But there is another six months to elapse before anyone gets any benefit at all under the scheme, and therefore he will draw the yield from one and a-half years Petrol Duty—shall we say £16,000,000 to £17,000,000. The Chancellor, when he was asked whether he would not remit this Petrol Tax on industry, obviously shivered. He said: "No, I cannot do that, because if I do I shall lose two-thirds of the yield of the tax." In other words, two-thirds of the yield of this duty is being paid by industry. Two-thirds of £16,500,000 is about £11,000.000. Let us assume that some of that is paid by distributive enterprises and so on. But even if 29,000,000 is paid by industry it means that before industry receives its £17,000,000 it is going to have to contribute £9,000,000 before it gets a penny, and that its net yield in the year up to this point will be £8,000,000.
But that is not all. We did not discover sufficiently early that this new Petrol Duty is a dodge whereby the Chancellor can increase the proceed from the Income Tax. Suppose you take a brewery, like one of the Midland breweries, which I understand made last year nearly £500,000. Let us suppose that it pays £100,000 a year in rates. It is no longer going to have to pay £75,000 a year. That is going to be remitted. Nobody will ever make me believe that to remit £75,000 to that brewery will make any difference at all to the consumer. It will merely swell the profits, and £15,000 of that, as the additional profit, will be paid in Income Tax and go back to the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Thus, it will be seen that the consumers are going to get very little out of this Bill. The consumers have to find £9,000,000 as their contribution to the Petrol Duty, and, perhaps, £1,000,000 or £2,000,000, whatever the sum may be, additional Income Tax, and the net result is going to be a very small gain to industry. The right hon. Gentleman says that he does not want to use the money so as to fritter it away, but the fact that what net balance there may be accruing to industry is to be distributed to all and sundry irrespective of need means that a very substantial proportion of this money will, in effect, be thrown away.
The right hon. Gentleman is putting the whole of productive industry on the dole whether they want it or not. I remember how the Tory newspapers invented the term "on the dole," but we can use the term in this case quite accurately. The whole of industry is to be put on the dole irrespective of whether it is unemployed or not. If it is fully employed, if it is prosperous and doing better than it has ever done in its history, is the dole going to be denied it? Certainly not: it will receive the dole in the same proportion as the most hard hit and most depressed enterprise. Not only is money wasted because of this free grant to enterprises, whether they are prosperous or not, but the depressed industries are not going to receive any real value. We are told in the case of coal that the relief to the collieries is going to amount to 2½d. per ton. and that, if we add the reduction of freight, it will amount to another 4d. Therefore, the cost of the production of coal is to be reduced by 6½d. per ton. Is that going to do any good to the mining industry of this country? All it will do will be to keep alive certain pits now on the margin of production and intensify competition and ultimately lower the miners' wages and reduce prices in the foreign markets. That is the whole history of the last two years, and the effect of this rating relief will be precisely the same as when the Prime Minister threw money down the gutter three years ago.
It is the same in the case of iron and steel. The President of the Board of Trade told us that the remission of rates to steel works will amount to 3s. per ton and that the relief which will come from the reduction of freights will amount to another 1s. per ton—making 4s. per ton. That is not half the difference that separates the price of the British product from the Belgian product, and therefore it cannot meet the situation. We have the perfectly fantastic situation of the Government pouring money into the pockets of the prosperous enterprises and giving small doles which will he of no economic value whatever to the enterprises that need them most. One could discuss this question of industry for a long time, but I will refrain from doing so.
How does the Minister suppose that this remission of rates to industrial enterprises is going to stimulate trade? We want to know how this is going to take place. I submit that it can take place only in one way, and that is really by the reduction of the price of the goods that they produce. Clearly, if any scheme of de-rating so reduces the cost of production that it reduces prices to the consumer, the market may expand, and you may get prosperity. But unless it does that, the de-rating scheme does nothing at all. You can take whatever commodity you like and I challenge any Member to prove to the House that the rating remission will be sufficient to reduce prices at all, and that, if it does, by any amount which will lead to an expansion of trade. If it does not do that, how is expansion of trade to come about?
Will the hon. Gentleman pardon me for interrupting him? Can he give me the reasons for the attitude of the iron and steel industry or the industries which he has specified with regard to the rebate which they will receive on account of the rating scheme of my right hon. Friend?
I understand that in Sheffield there is a large number of people who do not accept that position. I can quite understand manufacturers being very anxious and very willing to accept this assistance, but that does not say that it is going to have any permanent effect on trade. When you come to the question of the iron and steel trade, every dole of this kind is going to depress the standard of life of the iron and steel workers. That is a very serious point and one which I wish I had time to develop. The wages of the iron and steel workers depend upon the price of the product, and the fact that the result of this proposal will be to reduce the cost means that the iron and steel workers, in reduced wages, are going to have to pay for the Government's so-called generosity to the half-bankrupt iron and steel manufacturers.
With regard to the docks and the railways, I think the Government have acted most unfairly. Docks and railways are to be de-rated. Tubes, trams, omnibuses, commercial road transport are not only not to be de-rated, but they are to provide the sustenance which is to be given to other forms of transport and to industry. The case that has been made for the railways is that they are to get their £4,000,000 and that they are to reduce the freight charges on certain classes of heavy merchandise so as to pass it over to the users of the railways. But as I have pointed out time and time again—and the right hon. Gentleman has never replied to it on any occasion—the railway companies are not forced to agree on the question of rates. They have the Railways Rates Tribunal behind them. They have certain statutory rights as to profits, and they will get those profits. I quote from a far more distinguished authority on rating questions than myself, Mr. Farraday, who made a remarkable speech to the Members of this House and whose addendum to his paper I hold in my hand. He said this with regard to railways, and I should like to know what the Minister's answer is. Instead of concentrating resources where most needed, it is flinging money away with a prodigality which is a scandal in these times, when unemployment is so severe.
We are left in this Bill with anomalies and injustices. Take the case of the motor car manufacturers. Because of the Duty which has been imposed by the Government on motor cars, it is actually raying American companies to come to this country to manufacture motor cars.
Hear, hear!
Hon. Members opposite are like the Parliamentary Secretary; they do not believe in economic text books.
We believe in work for the workers.
These prosperous industries are to get a remission of 75 per cent, on their rates, while the struggling ex-service man who has a repair garage round the corner gets nothing. What about unemployment? Is there not a large amount of employment to-day in the repair garages of this country, and have not these people in many cases established their garages by means of their war gratuities? They have as much right to live as the American firms that come into this country. To-day, they are in the position of having no rate relief, and they have to find in their reduced trade, because of the taxation on petrol, something to help the motor-car manufacturer. That is an anomaly and an absurdity of the Bill. The Bill is full of absurdities of that kind.
What is quite as bad as the anomalies and absurdities which stick out of every Clause of the Bill is the amount of litigation to which this Bill will give rise. The Minister has had to confess that a good many points in the Bill will have to be settled at Quarter Sessions or in the High Court. That means employment. The hon. Member for the Hartlepools (Sir W. Sugden) asks for employment, and this Bill will give it, but it will be employment to the wrong kind of people. It will give employment to rating surveyors and lawyers in large numbers. I have heard it seriously suggested that the rating surveyors and lawyers are about to raise statues to the Minister of Health and the Chancellor of the Exchequer for bringing them renewed prosperity. I am sure that the hon. and learned Member for South shields (Mr. Harney) does not wish that his profession should profit by the ill-gotten gains produced by this Bill. This Bill is not only muddled in its conception but wrong-headed in its method, and it will lead to no end of trouble in the law Courts. There can be no doubt about that. Every local authority knows that. All the large railway companies know that. They are not satisfied that they are going to escape without trouble. Certainly, the dock authorities envisage a good deal of difficulty and possible litigation.
This Bill is wrong because it proceeds on entirely wrong lines. The method of selecting certain kinds of hereditaments for exceptional purposes and certain types of hereditaments for special treatment is immoral politically and economically unsound. The Government were driven to that method because they refused to accept what is the only simple and fair method of dealing with this problem. I cannot enlarge on that side of the question to-night, but I do suggest that this method of differentiating between classes of ratepayers is the worst possible way of dealing with the problem. The only satisfactory and scientific way of dealing with it is to classify services and to say that certain services are national services and make them a national responsibility. You would then help each district according to its need. If you took other services and say that they are semi-national services, and help them proportionately to their national character, you would help localities according to their needs. The method adopted by the Government will do nothing but keep the whole rating system of this country in a state of muddle. It will make it almost impossible for the people who follow the present Government to deal with the problem properly. It will leave the situation infinitely worse than it is to-day.
We have heard a good deal about political motives. not so much from my hon. Friends behind me, but from hon. Members below the Gangway on this side of the House. The only motive behind this Bill is a political motive. The Government having callously and cynically ignored for four years the problem of the necessitous areas, and having gone out of their way to make it more difficult for local authorities to meet their responsibilities and to provide for the unemployed, suddenly discover, a year before the General Election, that something must be done to deal with this problem, and we have the steady, persistent Minister of Health harnessed to that fiery steed, the Chancellor of the Exchequer. They are told to drive ahead, and they produce, post-haste, a scheme which has had to be modified as it has gone through, which is still full of holes and anomalies, which is going to give rise to an enormous amount of litigation and which hon. Members opposite know in their hearts will provide no solution of the problem which the Government set out ostensibly to solve by this Bill. I do not remember any Bill the rejection of which I have more heartily and more sincerely moved.
It is misleading the country. Fortunately, the country is discovering it. Halifax and Hallam prove that. [An HON. MEMBER: "Prove what?"] I cannot be responsible for the memories of hon. Members opposite. Either they were not here when I began my speech or they have forgotten what I said. I said that the Government made this Rating and Valuation Bill the chief issue at these two by-elections and they have come out of them with infinite discredit. It shows that intelligent electors have no love for this method of dealing with the problem. They believe that it will result in a, large amount of public money going to people who never asked for it, and who certainly do not need it, and that it holds out the bait of ultimate assistance to the rank and file of the ratepayers of the country which the Government knows very well they will never get. It is a bad Bill from Clause 1 to Schedule II. The general scheme is unsound; it is an unscientific set of proposals. It is the result of scamped thinking, of hurry, and a desire to get their proposal to help necessitous areas into the limelight. It is a fraud upon necessitous areas and upon the great mass of the ratepayers.
I beg to second the Amendment. It gives me some satisfaction to think that the Parliamentary Secretary is not here to hear the criticisms which are made on the Bill because those who had the pleasure of listening to his opening speech on the Third Read- ing must have enjoyed the enormous self-satisfaction with which he looked upon his handiwork; and his enjoyment was so innocent, so placid, and so supreme, that it seems to be a pity to in any way injure his complacency and self-satisfaction. I am glad that the Minister of Health has been left to bear the brunt of the criticisms which are to be made. The point I want to make is this, that the Government have never made clear to the House whether this is a purely rating Bill or whether they are dealing primarily with the problem of the congested districts. As far as I understand, from the arguments of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the problem of the distressed districts is only a secondary one. What the Minister of Health and the Government are doing is to provide a new rating system for the country and are leaving alone the burden of the necessitous areas, which everyone recognises, even the Tory party at long last, must be dealt with. We on these benches have been watching how the Chancellor of the Exchequer has been quite indifferent to the way in which rates were rising as a result of the policy of the Government, and not only the rates but also the other burdens upon industry in connection with insurance. But when you ask the Government which problem they are really tackling the Minister of Health tells us that they are tackling the rating problem. It is rather a strange coincidence that their scheme so fortunately fits in with the time when a General Election is due and when a miraculous stream of gold is to flow into the pockets of a large number of selected industries a few months after the date of the General Election. I only note that as a subject of passing interest.
I suggest that the Government scheme stands condemned. The whole basis of the Bill is unsound. It is unsound to select the industries which the Government are proposing should receive exemption, and when we look into the question of rating and ask why these industries are to be helped I do not see how we can come to any other conclusion than that there is some other reason for the proposal than that of rates. There are other ways in which help might have been given to productive industry, other ways in which the people who need relief from the burden of the rates might have been assisted. What seems to me so inequitable is that you are going to assist certain industries which do not need assistance and spend a large sum of money which cannot find its way into the pockets of the community but must go to increasing the profits of certain firms. That has not been disputed, nor has the Government attempted to answer the point. How much of this money will go in that way is difficult to calculate.
My objection to the scheme is this. I look at the way in which it applies to a Division like the one I represent. Half the rates in my Division are paid by those who live in dwelling-houses and shops and businesses. Under the Government scheme none of these people are to receive any assistance; and yet they include large numbers of dwelling-houses in which a vast number of men and women are living in the most overcrowded conditions. Compared with the pre-War period these houses of the workers have their burdens. A document was sent round some time ago, just before the Bill was introduced, dealing with some of the problems in South Wales showing the extra burdens on the collieries and on the homes of the workers. Those who were appealing for help from the Government never imagined that when the Government proposed to help the collieries, as they are doing under this Bill, they would leave the homes of the workers entirely unaided. The figures supplied to us showed that the burden of the weekly rent had increased, as compared with pre-War days. by 2s. 2d. to 3s. 6d. per week. Under the Government scheme these people are left out entirely. The people who live in the crowded homes of Finsbury are entirely ignored. When I ask who are going to be helped in Finsbury I found that about £12,000 of the rates in that borough are paid by firms connected with the liquor trade. They are the people whom the Government are going to assist. When one asks that they should assist the homes of the working classes the right hon. Gentleman says that if he assists these big industries they will make money and the shopkeepers will feel the benefit.
This Bill carries out the great principle of Tory finance, which is always to give all the money you can to the wealthy people and then the poorer people are sure to benefit. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has the same principle. His argument is that if you reduce the Supertax and the Income Tax, good times will come to everybody, including the working class. In every case the party opposite first give the benefit to the wealthier class, and the argument is always used that the poorer classes will ultimately benefit. There is one other point to which we have not yet had an answer as far as I have heard. The hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Greenwood) referred to a paper in which some very interesting criticisms are made of the Government proposals. One of those criticisms is that the industries which are suffering to-day and which the Government—I presume as a secondary consideration—hope to help by this scheme, have, during recent years, and since the boom period, asked for reductions in their assessments because business was so unsatisfactory. The writer of this pamphlet quotes a case in which a decision of the court was given on the ground that the industry concerned was passing through bad times and that, therefore, its assessment ought to be reduced. He also gives figures to show that in certain industries, which have been prejudicially affected by bad trade, 52 per cent of the assessments have been reduced.
9.0 p.m.
The Government are going to base their relief of industry upon a percentage of the rates that are being paid by particular industries. The industries which are in a bad way have already had their assessments reduced. and, therefore, the districts which are most in need of assistance will get less money than they would have got had the assessments in force to-day been the same as those of three or four or five years ago. The instance is given of certain docks—I think in the Poplar district—which have been reduced from over £100,000 to about 230,000. To-day the Government relief will be given on the £30,000 and not on the higher figure. On the other hand Government relief is also to be given to a number of industries which are not in this category, such as artificial silk factories, and breweries and others that have been mentioned. Their assessments have not been reduced. As they have increased in prosperity, their accommoda- tion is probably greater than it was before, and, therefore, a larger sum of money is coming to them in the form of relief of their rates, simply because they are prosperous, while a smaller sum goes to the non-prosperous because their assessments have been reduced. Looking at the Government scheme as a whole it seems to me to be inequitable and unsatisfactory. It is not meeting the urgent needs of the districts where help is most required. The Parliamentary Secretary may regard it with supreme satisfaction but I should not have the slightest fear of going down to Woolwich and stating my views of the Government scheme. I certainly have no fear of going to my constituency and explaining to the men and women who are living there in overcrowded conditions that the Government have nothing to offer them in the form of rate relief—that it does not matter about them but that the relief is to be given to those concerns which are thriving and prosperous. Those are the people that the Government are looking after to-day. The right hon. Gentleman the Minister appears to think that the scheme will prove satisfactory to the people of this country. I disagree. I am convinced that the basis of the scheme is unsound. It is bad finance in a matter of this kind to pick out certain separate industries. Such a course is bound to lead to endless complications and a great deal of ill-feeling. When the man who is in need of relief and does not get it sees his more prosperous neighbour, who does not want the relief, getting it, one can imagine the sort of feeling that will be engendered. In giving financial relief you must proceed on sound principles. In the case of the Income Tax, for example, it is a simple thing to say that a man shall have relief if he has two or three children but that the same relief is not to be extended to the man who has no children. But when you begin to give relief in such a way that it is impossible to draw a clear line of demarcation, you only add to the financial complications of the situation. The Government will find that in these proposals they have done so, to a far greater extent than they recognise to-day, and, for those reasons, I have much pleasure in seconding the Amendment.
I am sorry that the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Greenwood) is no longer in his place—I presume that, like most of us, he feels the need for some refreshment—because I desired sincerely to congratulate him on his speech. I have thoroughly enjoyed two speeches this evening, namely, that of the Parliamentary Secretary and the reply of the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne. The hon. Member for Nelson and Colne made out as good a case as possible against the Bill but I am inclined to think he rather overstated it. He told us that sufficient time had not been devoted to the discussion of the various Clauses of the Bill. During my Membership of this House I have never known of a Bill in regard to which there has been so much repetition, both in the Amendments put down and in the arguments used in favour of those Amendments. Clause 3 has been debated time and time again——
What about Clause 4?
In the Third Reading Debate there is an opportunity for hon. Members to deal with that Clause, but we did not hear much about it from the Mover or the Seconder of the Amendment. They devoted themselves to Clause 3 and it is on Clause 3 that we have heard most argument, both in the country and in the House. It is the point that the householder and the shopkeeper are not going to benefit from the Bill that has been emphasised, both in the country and in the House. It is, no doubt, effective with a crowd of people, who are carried away by emotion for the moment, to tell them that they are not going to get anything immediately out of this scheme. No doubt householders, and particularly workers who are under employed or out of employment find the burden of rates is very heavy particularly in those places where they have reverted from the system of compounding rates to the system of direct rating. The poorer people find the rates a great burden especially in those districts where, owing to a certain type of person having control of local affairs, extravagance has taken place and the rates have been substantially increased.
It is true that on cottage houses a sum is being paid that is very often double what they had to pay as rates before the War. To these people I offer my sincere sympathy, and I can quite understand that the arguments used by the Opposition to that type of person will have some effect and may make them think that this Bill is not quite so good as its promoters declare. But we must look at this matter in the right perspective. What amount of relief would each householder receive if the whole of this money was spread over the whole of the householders of this country? [An HON. MEMBER: "That is not the point!"] I try to be a practical man in these things, and I do not want to go to economic textbooks for knowledge of rating matters. I have had so many years' practical experience on a rating authority that I know the problem from the point of view of the working man, and I say that the share of each householder would only have been very small indeed.
In my opinion, the whole scheme as outlined by the Government—and indeed this is only part of a bigger scheme—will bring relief in this way, that by helping productive industry you will increase employment in the country, and that is far better for the householder than a mere copper or two off his rates each week. What is wanted in this country at the moment is full-time employment, steady employment, and a good rate of wages. [ Interruption ]. If it would not be out of order, I could develop that argument and show how the present Government are trying, in one way and another—and this is one of the ways—to relieve the great pressure of unemployment by helping productive industry to compete with foreign countries.
In regard to the argument that the shopkeeper is not going to get anything out of this rate relief, I can speak from absolute knowledge of the shopkeeper's conditions, having had considerable experience myself and knowing something of the life of a shopkeeper and of his difficulties. The great complaint of the shopkeeper in the past has been about the incidence of rates, inasmuch as, if he improved his premises, by putting in a new front, for instance, down came the rating authority, and said, "You have improved your premises, so we will put up your rateable value, and therefore you will have to pay more rates." It is more with that question that the shopkeeper is concerned than with any question of the small reduction in his rates that he could receive by spreading the whole of this sum of money throughout the country. On the other hand, the bulk of the shopkeepers in this country are convinced that if, by this Bill and by other Measures that the Government are bringing in, we shall be able to bring productive industry back to a state of prosperity, then the shopkeeper is going to get the benefit in the way of increased turnover, which is the only way in which he can really get the benefit.
The hon. Member for Nelson and Colne talked about the Conservative party, which had always posed as a friend of the small shopkeeper, coming along now with a Measure that would not help him at all. I have never known the Socialist party do anything of a friendly nature either to big or to small shopkeepers, and I can assure the hon. Members opposite that their bunkum will not go down with the small shopkeepers, because they know very well that a political party that advocates the abolition of individual enterprise is not going to help them.
The hon. Member is rather departing from the question involved in the Motion for the Third Reading of this Bill.
I apologise. As far as the shopkeepers are concerned, I am quite satisfied that they realise the position. In one particular area in my own County of Lincolnshire, the steel and iron industry has been depressed for a year or two, with the result that the men are under-employed and not earning much in the way of wages. Some of them have been out of work altogether, and there is a good deal of distress. What has happened to the shopkeepers there? I should like the hon. Member for Hillsborough (Mr. A. V. Alexander) to inquire into the takings of his own society in that area to see whether they have not dropped in the last year or two. It has been the same, of course, with the shopkeepers, and you will find that there is a great deal of complaining among shopkeepers in that district, while there are many shops to let and changing hands, because there is no real turnover. A little bit of relief in the way of 6d. or 1s. in the £ off their rates would not be of any use to the shopkeepers there. What they want is to see the great steel and iron industry of that district prosperous again, because then, of course, the workpeople would be earning wages and would be able to spend them with the shopkeepers, who would thus get prosperity.
The hon. Member for Nelson and Colne mentioned the case of agricultural land, and said that it would mean only a very little relief for the farmer, because he has been receiving already a considerable amount of relief under a former Act of Parliament. It possibly will not mean a great deal, but that little bit may make all the difference between the farmer being able to make his holding pay and it being unprofitable. Again, it removes a very great grievance, which I think was a sound grievance, on the part of the farming community, that in having to pay rates upon their agricultural land, they were actually paying a tax on their raw material, a thing which no other section of the community has to do, and I think they were quite right in that contention. Therefore, I think the Government are doing the right thing in removing the last little bit of that burden from the agriculturists, who, I am quite certain, will be grateful to the Government for what they have done on their behalf.
A great deal was said by the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne about a certain rate book that had come up from Gloucester. The Rating and Valuation Act of 1925 was a forerunner of this particular Measure and of another Bill that is to follow. It was necessary that there should be a revaluation, and it may be possible that in certain districts some of the rating and valuation committees may have made mistakes, but it is open to those who are being valued by these committees, if they are not satisfied with the valuation put on their property, to appeal against the decision, and I am satisfied that if these heavy increases have been put on without justification they can be righted in the proper way on appeal. I know that in certain districts there were cottages rated on a rateable value of about 30s. a year which were being let at considerably more than 10s. a week, simply because there had been no revaluation for many years, and it was absolutely necessary that they should be revalued before you could proceed with the whole scheme of the Government. I do not think that that argument about the rate book was worth bringing here, because hon. Members know that there is a remedy, if there is a grievance such as was alleged.
A very good debating point was made by the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne, about this helping of prosperous industries, and I think the hon. Member for Finsbury (Mr. Gillett) also made special mention of that point, but the former hon. Member supplied the answer to his own query, when he was talking about the breweries and pointing out that those who were going to get this large relief, where they had been earning good profits, were only going to pay it back again to the Chancellor of the Exchequer in increased Income Tax. I thought that that was a very good argument in favour of this Bill, because if it applies in the case of breweries, surely it will apply also in the case of other prosperous industries. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] That is not the real point. We have to take this thing in a practical, common-sense way.
Can any hon. Member show a real scheme for dealing with this differentiation between prosperous and non-prosperous industries which will work? I have given this matter careful consideration, because I realise that there was a certain amount of argument to be used by opponents of this Measure on that very point, and I have to find an answer to that argment. I must confess that it did appear to me quite a good argument in the first place, and I tried to find what other methods could have been used of helping productive industry, and of how to differentiate between prosperous and non-prosperous industries. I have not, however, heard in any of the speeches of Members on the Socialist benches, and I have not read in any of the reviews on this subject, any method or any practical, sound suggestion. There would be many difficulties in dealing with this matter, and you would lead people not to worry about getting over the border line if you differentiated. When you come to real figures, and find out what a small percentage will go to the prosperous industries compared with the large percentage which will go to the non-prosperous, we must agree that there is not a great deal in that argument.
I regard this as a very fine scheme; I am speaking of the whole of the Government scheme of which this forms part. I am not satisfied to form that opinion myself. I have been in consultation with many friends who have served long periods on local government bodies. This great problem has existed for many years, and many suggestions have been made to try to bring about a better state of affairs, but no one up to now has produced a real sound scheme except the Government with this scheme. Let me quote a few words in the letter I received from a colleague of mine, who has had a long experience in these matters, and has made a careful study of this question. He says:
In one sense this is a very innocuous Measure. It is really a machinery Bill, but the criticisms that have been directed against it have been based upon the uses to which we are led to believe that this machinery is to be applied. It is part of a large and general scheme. The first thing one asks is, Why has this general scheme been brought forward at all? The answer we get is, "Look at your necessitous areas; look at your falling exports; look at your unemployment. We are trying to meet that position." What are the proposals by which they are to be met? They involve the revaluation of the whole country. Already valuation has begun under the Act of 1925. That is to be scrapped, and the valuation of a very intricate and complicated character is to be begun. Thousands of new officials are to be appointed. There is to be a heavy tax put on petrol, which, after all, is itself an instrument of industry through transport, and the tax is to fall upon a single section of the community. Then we are to have a delay of 18 months. Money is to be collected, but nothing is to be done for 18 months. I leave it to the good sense of anybody who is listening whether in 18 months the valuations can be completed, with all the points of law, all the difficulties and all the appeals. Does anybody believe that that valuation will be completed in 18 months, when these proposals are to come into operation?
Then the Bill is put forward in order that the Government may be able to differentiate what it calls productive activities from distributive activities, and they want to make that differentiation because productive activities are entitled to a treatment more favourable than distributive activities. We on the Liberal Benches, and I am sure hon. Members on the Labour Benches, are not foolish enough to say that the country is the sufferer by the taxpayers distributing large sums of money for certain industries. What they say is that the Government are taking vast sums of money from the taxpayer, and are not putting it to the best advantage. The last speaker said that he had heard of no better way by which this money could be applied than that contained in this proposal. Our real point is that this is a bad way, and we can show a simpler and better way. Before coming to that better way, there are one or two comments I should like to make on this Bill. The first is that it is common ground that, while this Bill as regards industrial purposes is taking £17,000,000 from the taxpayer, it is all guess work. The Government say they are going to take this £17,000,000 for the purpose, according to speeches we have heard, of helping to bring unemployment to an end and of helping the necessitous areas to bring back export trade. Of that £17,000,000, we say that less than half will go towards this purpose. The Government say more than half. That question will be ultimately decided, but it is common ground that several millions will be contributed to purposes other than those which on the Government's own showing, justify the scheme at all.
Nobody is going to say that the expenditure in giving relief to the breweries, distilleries, artificial silk factories, motor car factories and gramophone factories and the hundred and one other prosperous trades in the Midlands and South does one whit towards removing our unemployment, nine-tenths of which is in the necessitous areas, or that it is going to do anything towards getting back our export trade, the loss of which is largely due to the falling off in our industrial areas. The Government reply that they are very sorry, but their scheme involves several millions taken from the taxpayer going in this direction. My answer is that, if their scheme involves that, in order to put £50 in the right direction, they must raise £100 and put £50 in the wrong direction, that damns their scheme. But the scheme does not involve that. An Amendment has been proposed within the four corners of this Bill from this side which would obviate the very objections which I am now pointing out. That Amendment would have let everything else stand, but would not give relief to those industrial concerns which had made a profit in the standard year of over 7 per cent. That would have cut out the breweries, Courtaulds and all those firms which do not ask and do not want relief. Why was not that Amendment put in?
The next criticism is that, even among producers, there is a grossly unfair discrimination between the poor man and the rich man. Small producers can only make a living by coupling production with distribution. The Bill says that, if the concern is primarily non-productive, it shall get no relief. Those small people, who couple the two, have to make their front window their glory in order to invite the customer to come in and buy, while their manufacturing processes are done in a dingy back room. Can any surveyor honestly say that such a business, say the business of a bespoke tailor or bespoke bootmaker, is not primarily that of distributing? These are all, therefore, cut out by the Bill. The mischief of it is that already the multiple shop or big store is killing these people and now the Government tell the multiple shop and big store that, just because they are big and powerful, they will be relieved of three-fourths of their rates and they they tell the small man that, because he is poor, he will not be relieved at all.
How is a multiple shop, as a shop, going to be relieved of its rates? Is he aware that many of these shops simply buy like ordinary shopkeepers?
What was in my mind, though I may not have expressed it clearly, was that a big shop with money behind it is told by this Bill that the one thing it must avoid is to combine the two processes because it will then be classed as distributive. It must separate the productive and the distributive parts of its business, and it will then get three-fourths relief on the productive part. The poor man cannot afford to do that.
That is not what the hon. and learned Member said.
I am sorry. That is what I intended to say. Now I come to another criticism. These proposals are based upon drawing a distinction between production and distribution which has no tangible basis whatsoever. The process from the initial stage until the article reaches the consumer is continuous. It is impossible to say at what stage to label it production and at what stage to label it distribution. When the miner dislodges a lump of coal out of its bed, does he produce it? Is it produced when it is put on a trolley, put in the lift or stacked in the merchant's yard? The bootmaker puts his boots through 40 or 50 machines. Is a boot produced at the last one or is it produced when it is put into the packing case? Production is a meaningless term by itself. There must be production to someone. It is no use producing boots in the middle of the Sahara Desert. You must produce them to somebody, and the cutting of the leather, the stiching and the carrying to its ultimate destination enter into the cost of a pair of boots, and so with every other commodity. That was recognised by the draftsmen of this Bill, and they therefore had recourse to wholly artificial definitions, and in Clause 5 by these artificial definitions a method is laid down for bringing about this distinction. The method is to tell us to look at the whole factory, its warehouses, garages, stores, counting houses and offices and at the little portion where it is necessary that an inspector should visit in order to bring about safety and prevent sweating. The portion of a factory that needs to be visited by the inspector under the Factories Acts is comparatively small. The surveyor is told by this Bill to value the whole concern and then to write down the proportions of the total annual value proper to each of its parts, the part where the inspector goes, the warehouses, the offices, and the counting houses. How can a surveyor do that? It is a wholly impracticable proposition.
Of course, you can do it here in an Act of Parliament just as by an Act of Parliament you can invent an artificial thing called weighted population, but a Court cannot investigate weighted population nor can a Court test whether a surveyor is right in putting so much lo the counting house, so much to the warehouse, so much to the inspected factory, by any test of weighted bricks or weighted space. They have to act upon inferences. I challenge the Minister to tell me in his reply what criteria or tests the surveyor is to use. If a surveyor's criterion of the whole concern is £10,000 a year, how much is he going to put upon the counting house and upon the factory? He cannot value the counting house as a billiard room or as a dance room, but as the counting house for that factory. He would say, "If I am to apply the ordinary rule of deciding what a hypothetical tenant would give, I must say that a hypothetical tenant would give just nothing for the counting house if detached from the factory and would give nothing for the factory if detached from the counting house."
Another defect which has not been brought out very strongly is that the Bill refuses all relief to about 81 per cent. of those who now contribute to the assessable value of the country, made up of 70 per cent. shops, offices and distributing agencies, and 11 per cent. public undertakings and things of that kind. Who are the 81 per cent.? They are the poor. They include labourers' cottages. Go into any of our industrial towns and look at those sad rows of dirty, grimy houses. See them in South Shields, Newcastle, Sunderland, or in any other industrial areas. In every case the rent which the unfortunate man pays for one of those houses carries several shillings for rates, and every shilling which that man pays is more out of his income than 10s. or 20s. would be out of the income of any one of us. No relief for them! No relief for the shopkeepers! Because gas, electric light and water from these public utility companies reach the poor people, no relief for them! Who is going to get the advantage of this relief? [An HON. MEMBER: "The working men!"] Let us see how the working men get it. Roughly, 50 per cent. of this goes to the brewers, the Courtaulds and other wealthy concerns. Is it suggested that that is going to produce higher wages? If that is suggested, it is a suggestion which would be repudiated by any man with knowledge. Is it suggested that in the necessitous areas, where the collieries and the steelworks are to get the subsidy, there are going to be higher wages? It will result in lower wages. [An HON. MEMBER: "Extra employment!"] One thing at a time. It will result in lower wages, and I will tell you why. In the heavy industries most of the men are paid by piecework, and the scale of wages for the piecework rises and falls with prices. If your proposals are going to do any good, they will reduce prices so as to enable you to capture foreign markets. If they reduce prices they affect the scale upon which wages are paid, and there will necessarily be lower wages. It was pointed out that the effect of the coal subsidy, the year before last, was to induce the foreigner to lower his prices in order to keep his markets. His lowering of prices compelled owners here to quote lower prices, and the lower prices resulted in giving the men smaller wages. That has been the experience in industrial areas.
Somebody said that it would absorb the unemployed. Will it? Nobody denies that, in order to recapture our lost export markets for coal, we need to reduce the price of coal 1s. 6d. or 2s. a ton. The most optimistic person does not say that this scheme can lower the price more than 6d. a ton. Therefore, it will not capture the foreign markets, and there will not be a greater demand for coal. It appears to me that these proposals will defeat the very end the Government have in view. If you are going to de-rate industrial hereditaments, the hypothetical tenant will pay more for them. As rates fall so assessments will rise, and what is gained in lower rates will be lost in higher assessments. I think that is a point which has not been considered.
Those are criticisms of the Measure put forward hurriedly at this late hour of the night; but the real reason why the Liberal party have opposed these proposals from the start and will to the very end oppose them is that the Government have had recourse to this inequitable, wasteful, dilatory and complicated method of relieving the necessitous areas when there is a simple and obvious one at hand. The rates of this country can be divided, roughly, into two parts, those which are devoted to local requirements such as police protection, sanitation, and the cleaning of the streets—those purely local requirements to which it is everybody's duty to contribute whether he is a producer or distributor—and those in respect of health, unemployment, education and other national services. What the Liberal party say is: Leave to the locality the fulfilment of all those requirements that are local, and transfer to the nation the duty of meeting all those requirements which are national, and you will then solve the whole difficulty and automatically give the relief in the right direction. In a place like South Shields such a scheme would lift an immense burden from the rates, because that is one of those densely packed industrial areas where nobody can give any education except the local authority, where health is bad because of the slums, where unemployment is great because people are engaged in the heavy industries, and where rates soar on account of all those things. In a place like Bournemouth, on the other hand, where everybody is more or less well-to-do, education does not fall upon the public authorities, there is no unemployment, very little ill-health and the social rates are very light.
By the method we suggest we should take an infinitely greater amount off the shoulders of the necessitous areas than this Bill will, and we should do it without any complications. I am told that £8,500,000 is the equivalent of the whole unemployment burden, nine-tenths of it in these areas. The sum of £8,500,000 is about as much as is coming to the necessitous areas under this Bill, but if you took off the rates the burden of education and the other charges which should never have come on the rates you would give those areas twice as much relief as they are to be given under this Bill, and the relief would then perhaps prove adequate to assist them in recapturing markets instead of, as now, being just sufficient to put something into the pockets of the owners but not sufficient to bring about any of the results you desire.
I would like to refer to the anomalous situation which arises from the exclusion from this Bill of one of the greatest industries in this country. Public utility undertakings are excluded, including companies. The gas companies regret that they are not permitted to take part in the de-rating scheme. With regard to the by-product portion of their production they are unlike other public utility companies, and I think they have a clear case for rate relief. The House will agree that in by-products production these companies have to meet competition in the domestic markets of this country. Coke oven undertakings produce an equal quantity of coke, and also tar which is used for road purposes. The same applies in a considerable degree to sulphate of ammonia and synthetic ammonia, and in the case of the latter in addition to the competition in the domestic market they have to compete with world wide prices.
At present these undertakings do not benefit from the proposals contained in this Bill in the shape of rating relief. Undoubtedly, coke-oven production is making a strong bid for the domestic market in this country. The relief would not benefit any industry unless it had the effect of reducing the price of the commodities made by the producer. Therefore it is reasonable to expect that coal-tar, sulphate of ammonia, and so on, will be lower in price. As gas undertakings obtain 25 per cent. of the whole of their revenue from the by-pro-
duct portion of their production, it will be seen that this is a very serious matter to them, and it can only have one result, namely, a lower price for by-product commodities. This in itself is bound to react on the price of gas to the consumer, because the total revenue has to be made up somehow. This is a question which affects the pockets of everybody in this country, quite apart from the disadvantage at which it places gas as a competitor with electricity. I think the remedy is comparatively simple. Gas undertakings urge that they are entitled to the benefit of de-rating to the extent of 75 per cent. on the 25 per cent. of their revenue which is derived from the byproducts portion of their production. I think that case has been made out, and they have been definitely negotiating with the proper Department on this question for the last two months.
I cannot help thinking that the hon. Member is suggesting that something should be put into the Bill which is not in now, and that is not in order on the Third Reading of a Bill.
I should have thought that the argument of the hon. Member would have been in order on the Third Reading under a Guillotine Resolution, when Amendments on this very subject were on the Amendment Paper, and we were not allowed to discuss them. I had an Amendment down dealing with this very point, and surely it is in order to argue the point that was contained in my Amendment.
That is contrary to the Rule that governs the Debate on the Third Reading of a Bill, which lays down that only matters that are in the Bill can he discussed.
A statement has been made with regard to synthetic ammonia and sulphate of ammonia as competing with other industries. Surely it is in order to discuss that question.
I cannot do otherwise than repeat that it is an established rule on the Third Reading that the only questions which can be discussed are those which are contained in the Bill.
The hon. Member for Newport (Mr. Clarry) was drawing attention to the fact that the by-product workers make coke and tar which is sold in competition with the same class of goods made by public utility companies, and he was showing how unfair the proposals of this Bill would be to them not only in international markets but also in the markets of this country.
I understand that the argument of the hon. Member for Newport was that he wanted something put into the Bill that was not in this Measure now.
I appreciate your ruling, Mr. Speaker, but I would like to point out that the hon. Member for Leith (Mr. E. Brown) had an Amendment down on the Order Paper during the Report Stage which was cruelly guillotined. There has been a great deal of thought on this subject, and it is a subject which ought to be discussed. I am not asking for anything to be put into the Bill at this stage, but I am endeavouring to make public what has been done outside this House in order to get a definite assurance from the Minister of Health that this matter will be dealt with in another place.
This is not the time to raise that point. The hon. Member is distinctly debating something which is not in the Bill, and that is not in order on the Third Reading.
Would it not be in order to condemn a Bill because it does not contain certain proposals?
This would not be the time to do it.
This Bill does not do what it was set up to do, and I think it creates an anomalous situation which can be prevented in another place.
The hon. Member would be in order in arguing that this Bill does not do what it set out to do, but that is quite a different matter from putting other things into the Bill now.
I will conclude what I have to say by stating that this is a matter which is being very closely watched throughout the country with a great deal of interest.
I am extremely sorry that you, Mr. Speaker, have limited the Debate by your Ruling on this subject, because I wanted to follow on the same lines as the hon. Member for Newport (Mr. Clarry). I am very much interested in some of these public utility services. There are about 10,000 of these coke oven by-product plants fixed up in different parts of the country, and I understand that by this Bill they will get 75 per cent. relief in rates. These 10,000 by-product plants produce byproducts which come into competition with coke and tar made by public utility companies. Some of them make benzol which competes with the benzol made by the different gas companies. Assuming that they will be placed in a position to reduce the price of their by-products that will hamper public utility companies, like the gas companies which are making the same kind of by-products. That will mean that they will be cut out to a large extent and their by-products will have to be reduced in price or they will be left upon their hands.
My point is that this will hamper very seriously the gas companies in different parts of the country. If they are not able to sell their by-products, they will have to get their revenue from some other source, and the result eventually must be that they will be compelled to increase the price of the gas they supply, so that the consumers of gas will be called upon to pay a little more per therm or per cubic foot than they are paying now. In the right hon. Gentleman's own City of Birmingham, the gas undertakings are under municipal control, and the gasworks there make all these things that I have mentioned, so it is probable that the receipts of the gas undertakings in Birmingham will be very materially reduced; and what applies to Birmingham applies to other local authorities who have gas undertakings, and to between 800 and 900 private gas undertakings in different parts of the country.
An hon. Member who spoke a little while ago read a letter congratulating the Government upon their present proposals, and I take it that that letter will find its way into the OFFICIAL REPORT tomorrow morning. The hon. Member did not mention the name of the writer, or say whether he was qualified to speak as a taxing authority. I would like to draw the attention of hon. Members to a magazine called "Taxation," in which there appeared, at the end of June, the report of an address delivered to Members of this House upstairs by Mr. Faraday, who is supposed to be one of the greatest rating authorities in this country. There has been absolutely no reply to what he stated, and it goes to show that many firms will be greatly hampered, while a large number who are expecting relief will get very little, because, during the last two or three years, their assessments have been greatly reduced.
10.0 p.m.
With regard to the iron and steel industry, I have, as a trade union official, to come into contact with the managing directors of a large number of firms in that industry. The wages of our members who are working in these heavy iron and steel industries and in blast furnaces are regulated by the selling price of the products, and for a considerable number of years we have been endeavouring to get their wages increased, because in some cases they are only receiving 35s. and some odd coppers each week. These firms, however, have told us that in many cases they are paying no dividends at all, and have very heavy overdrafts, and I would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman what guarantee there is that, when these heavy iron and steel industries get this relief to the extent of 75 per cent., they are going to lower the prices of their products. I think, human nature being what it is, that the very first thing they will do when they get this relief will be, where they are paying no dividends, to use it for the purpose of paying dividends, and, where they have large overdrafts, to use it for the purpose of repaying their bankers. Therefore, I do not think we shall see any reduction in the selling price of the products. I understand that the object of the Bill is to give relief to heavy industries such as iron and steel, because they have to meet fierce competition in the markets of the world. Can anyone in this House tell us what is to prevent other countries from following in the footsteps of our Government? As a matter of fact, according to the latest issue of the "Economic Journal," France and Germany are considering similar proposals, and, if our foreign competitors are going to get the same relief, the international competition in the markets of the world will be the same as it is now, and the result will be that our employers of labour will get no benefit.
For a great number of years I have taken much interest in the question of necessitous areas, and personally I think that if the £30,000,000 which will be raised eventually from the Petrol Duty were used for the purpose of paying all the Poor Law relief that is now paid as a result of the unemployment in necessitous areas, a very large number of factory owners would receive considerable relief. In the West Ham Union area, which covers between 700 and 800 parishes, the Poor Rate was at one time 9s. in the £. It is true that, according to the latest report, it is going to be reduced to 7s. and some odd coppers, but, if the whole of that Poor Rate, which I think amounts to about £8,000,000, were wiped out in West ham and other areas throughout the country, the factory owners would get a greater amount of relief owing to the resulting reduction of the rates, and all the other ratepayers would also receive some relief. It would be small in amount, I admit, but it would go to the man in the humble cottage who is paying his 6s. or 7s. a week, and these few coppers of relief would mean a great deal to people who are living on what is called the poverty line from week to week.
I do not believe that this Bill will have the desired effect. We shall have to wait events to see whether the anticipations of the Government will be realised, and next Session when, as I understand, we shall have another Bill, we shall know who will get the relief. The heavy industries—the engineering, iron and steel, and pig iron industries—are, I understand, going to share between them something like £14,000,000, but that amount scattered over thousands of employers of labour is like a drop in the bucket. My impression is that this proposal of the Government will have no effect upon them at all, and that the employers will be in the same position as at present. A large number of them do not need any relief, because they are making good dividends, and I think it would have been very much better if the Government had decided to give relief, not to firms who are paying reasonable dividends, but to those who are paying no dividends at all, and, in the case of the latter, to wipe out the rates altogether. At any rate, I am opposed to this system from top to bottom, and later on, when the Government come forward with their further proposals next Session, we shall have something to say about the people who are going to get a share of the £30,000,000.
I think the House must have been extremely interested during the Debates on the Bill in seeing how meekly the Labour party have followed the Liberals into the Lobby. Under the leadership of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), the Liberal party have introduced a great many Amendments cleverly designed to help the middleman. The Amendments were speciously devised so that the Labour party would not recognise them, and the Labour party humbly went into the Lobby with the Liberals in aid of their great enemy, the middleman. The hon. and learned Member for South Shields (Mr. Harney) suggested that this rating relief would be copied by the foreigner, and said that that would be bad economically for this country. He was immediately followed by the hon. Member for Plaistow (Mr. W. Thorne), who also objected to this relief being copied by the foreigner. I think that the Liberals are to be congratulated on having thrown dust over the Labour party throughout the proceedings. Is it such a bad thing if the foreigners have copied us? Is it not possibly the fact that we may be right in assisting industry in this way? It is an extraordinary argument from the Socialist party, who, after all, are the party who say that everything must be done by the State to help industry and the working life of this country. I do not understand how they can possibly argue as they have done against their own principles.
I thankfully accept the Bill for three reasons. First of all, it is a considerable assistance to agriculture by alleviating, for the first time in history, agriculture from all rates as originally understood. I would draw attention to the fact that the Bill does not relieve agriculture of drainage rates as paid to the drainage authorities. Although I would be out of order in pressing for the relief of drainage rates, I think that that fact should be fully established. I welcome on behalf of agriculture this rating relief as possibly the first step in recognition of the difficult position of agriculture. For the sake of those who are not assisted by the Bill, let us for a moment consider why agriculture needs special assistance in this way. There are two special reasons. First of all, the agricultural industry is depressed by heavy foreign competition, in a way that ordinary industry is not; and, secondly, it has the additional burden of the weather. A combination of bad harvests and bad trade and having to pay high rates has been very deleterious to agriculture in the past. For the first time, at any rate, the rate trouble has been removed.
Let us take two other matters in which the Bill gives assistance. Take the transport hereditaments. There agriculture needs assistance. The Bill brings the consumer nearer to the agricultural producer. In the past it has been a considerable hardship to the British agriculturist that the foreign agriculturist has been enabled to sell his produce in England largely because of cheaper freight transport than the British agriculturist has enjoyed. Although this Bill will not do away with the whole of that, it will remove some of the anomalies. Let us for a moment consider this question of necessitous areas. I would like humbly to congratulate the Minister of Health and those with him who have devised an extraordinarily interesting formula. I spent some years on the gunnery staff course—
Is the discussion of this formula in order on the Third Reading?
I thought the hon. and gallant Member was referring to the way in which this Bill would affect necessitous areas, and that was quite in order.
This formula, which I understand it has taken some years to devise, is extraordinarily ingenious. The points in which I am particularly interested is the weighting formula applied to children under five years of age and the density of population, as well as the unemployment figures. I have the greatest hope that the formula will prove a suit- able one. Of course it is one of those difficult cases in which only time can tell. For that reason a great deal of the criticism of both the Liberal party and the Socialist party is absolutely out of place, and I will state the reason why. When you have a new procedure like this, which can only be designed to help one particular form of industry at a time, it is perfectly hopeless to try to assist every kind of industry and every kind of hereditament in the country. In fact, if you take arithmetic and the £150,000,000 worth of rates and divide by the £35,000,000 that is available in cash, the result of assisting everybody, as the Labour party and the Liberal party would suggest, would be that extraordinarily little money would be available. Therefore to my mind, although the Liberal party and the Labour party propose to go down to the country and to say that they are prepared to assist everyone, the people in the country and towns will be much too sensible to accept their arguments. There is one more thing I wish to say. We on this side heartily congratulate the Government on the courage with which they have forced this Bill through. We do not think that in the present state of the country's finances it would be possible to go further, but if the country is wise enough to elect a Conservative Government for some years to come, I can quite see that we shall receive in this country an immense impetus to trade and agriculture.
The closing words of the hon. and gallant Member interested me very much. He seemed to have it in his mind that if the Conservatives were in power long enough to give more subsidies to industry, then gradually everything in the garden would be quite lovely. As a matter of fact, in the last 10 years we have had a history of various subsidies to various British industries, and at the end of all that period of subsidy here are Members bemoaning the fact that unemployment is increasing and that trade, whether agricultural or industrial, is in a very serious condition, and now they are bringing forward another process of subsidy with a view to trying to give trade some relief. A point which has not been stressed in this Third Reading Debate is this: the condition of industry, which the Government say they want to improve by this Bill, proves conclusively to those who sit on these benches that the present system of industry and commerce fails entirely, and that until we get some different method of control and ownership, we shall find no real cure for our ills. You can go on producing your subsidies by Rating and Valuation Bills, by relief of agricultural rating and industrial rating how and when you ilke, but until you are prepared to tackle the problems of industry on the principles which have been suggested on many occasions from these benches, you are going to have no final cure.
You have a Bill which is supposed to be going to rehabilitate, or help to rehabilitate our heavy industries. How far is it going to do it? I have been looking during the evening at some preliminary figures which are now available—unfortunately we have not a complete summary—of the output of various industries given as the result of the Census of Production, 1924. I am, of course, very interested, because I represent Sheffield, in the figures that deal with iron and steel. I find that the total production is £220,648,000. That is the sale value of the products of the various parts of the heavy iron and steel industry. The value would be somewhat different, perhaps there would be a slight fall in prices, as between 1924 and 1928. In a reply by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade at the end of May we were told the amount of relief that would be given under this Rating Bill to the iron and steel industry as a whole was £550,000. It is true he did not make it clear whether that £550,000 was inclusive of the relief they might receive from freights, but if you take it only as relief on the hereditaments possessed by the iron and steel industry, you get £550,000 relief on an output of hundreds of millions in value. When that answer was given, I rose at once and asked if I should be correct in saying that is far less than 1 per cent. of the total productive output, and it is plain from the figures we now have that it is very much less than 1 per cent., and possibly not much more than between a fourth and a half of 1 per cent. What use is that going to be to the iron and steel industry in endeavouring to recapture foreign markets?
How are you going to be able to pass on such a very small amount as that in quoting for contracts, in which perhaps in the last few years we have been rather outbidden by foreign competitors? As a fact the foreign competitor will be able to meet a small margin of that kind upon a large contract without any difficulty whatever. If we take it upon the other basis that was given by the President of the Board of Trade, he estimated that the relief would amount to 3s. a ton in direct relief and 1s. from freight relief. Again that is making no real impression upon the present difference of price between, say, Sheffield and Belgian steel, the chief import of which is complained about. If I were to take other industries you would find the same story in almost every one. I looked up the Census of Production with regard to cotton. The value is £360,000,000 and the total relief to be given is £1,500,000. The House can easily work out what a very slight percentage of relief that is upon the productive output. In the case of coal the output was valued for 1924 at £266,000,000 and the total relief is to be £2,500,000. The shipbuilding output was £51,250,000 and the total relief to be given is £400,000. In every one of the industries, therefore, where you have the greatest pressure and in which you need to put forth your very best effort to stimulate production, the amount of relief to be given is so small that it can be of no real service.
This new scheme is going to do something worse than that. I referred to it in the Debate on an Amendment last night. It is actually going to give relief to other productive industries in such a way that the benefit cannot be passed on to the consumer, and if you cannot pass on the benefit to the consumer you are not going to widen the market for the products. I want to quote again the figure which I gave last night. We have looked at our own Co-operative factory figures in this country. I am speaking now of England and Wales. We are to get £67,500 upon a productive output of £27,000,000. It is a sheer impossibility to pass on less than one-quarter of 1 per cent. of our productive output to the consumer. It cannot be done. You simply cannot split it up. You cannot possibly use that situation. On the other hand, a very limited proportion of the merchandise carried in the country is to be charged with a duty from which revenue is to be obtained to finance the scheme, and it is because of the limited proportion of the merchandise to be carried that it is possible to pass on to the consumer the increased cost of transport occasioned by the levy of the Petrol Duty. Thus, to take it collectively, you are actually demeaning the consumer and restricting his purchasing power, while you are only giving a sufficient amount of relief to the heavy productive industries to enable them slightly to increase their reserves in some cases, or, perhaps, to meet—as I have no doubt they ought to be met—arrears of debenture interest or arrears of first preference share interest or something of that kind.
There is no real grappling with the problem—the problem that we have always maintained from these benches is the real problem—of how to increase the demand for the goods which the workers are able and willing to produce. You are actually going to make that position worse by this Bill instead of improving it. If you really want to give a helping hand to industry in this country, you have to devise ways and means of increasing the purchasing power of the masses of the people and not give, as has been quite accurately described by my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Greenwood), doles to one small class of the community. That is the standpoint that we want to maintain from these benches. The Government, who are asking us to give a Third Reading to this Bill tonight, have consistently acted during the last four years in a way that makes it all the more difficult for that market to make good. They have taken off taxation from the rich people in the country during the last 3½ years to the extent of about £130,000,000 sterling. They have increased revenue by indirect taxation, by restricting the purchasing power of the consumer during the past 3½ years by an equivalent amount of £130,000,000. And then they are amazed to find that industry is languishing. It is a pity that they do not remember that after all two-thirds of the output of our British industries is for the home market. If you conduct your business in such a way that you restrict the purchasing power of the masses of the people, you are bound seriously to affect the whole question of employment.
If the Government instead of producing a scheme like this had devoted their attention to the question of distributing the products of labour applied to capital in this country so as to increase the purchasing power of the masses of the workers, instead of assisting only a small proportion of the population, they would have been doing far more to rehabilitate industry than by a scheme of this kind, which can only have a very small effect in any one of the industries which are so heavily handicapped. I would ask the Minister of Health to try to answer these points. I stated last night that I had discussed only 10 days ago with the leading steel people in Sheffield what, in their opinion, was likely to be the effect of this Bill upon that very important industry in Sheffield. Their reply to me was: "We are told that we are to get £550,000 under this scheme. If that were a gift to the United Steel Company it would be very efficacious in enabling us to deal with our quotations for foreign markets, but spread over the whole iron and steel industry it is quite useless." That is the tale that is told by the leading producers in many of the industries whose claims are said to be the reason for introducing this Bill, and we would like to hear what the Minister of Health has to say about it.
We on these benches hold that if you really want to relieve industry you must deal with the purchasing power of the people, and if you want to deal with the rating problem you must deal with it not by relieving this particular class of the community from rating on improvements and leaving the burden to be borne by all the rest of the ratepayers who continue to be rated upon their improvements, but if you are to deal with the rating problem properly you should deal with it by the rating of land values. We are quite prepared to argue that question on another occasion and to show why that is the efficacious remedy and why this remedy proposed by the Government will be completely inadequate.
My right hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary evoked indignant protests from the Opposition benches when he began his speech this evening by observing that he had not seen any opposition to any Bill of such importance which was characterised by so much lifelessness and half-hearted sincerity. I suppose it is necessary for hon. Members opposite to make a great show of objection and indignation.
What does the right hon. Gentleman mean by insulting us in that way? We are as sincere as he is. He is a cheeky joker, although he is the son of Joseph.
He hurt my feelings, too.
To anybody who has had experience in this House there are certain unmistakable and perhaps not indescribable tests by which we can at once distinguish whether hon. Members opposite really are convinced of the sincerity of the arguments which they are bringing forward, or whether they are only making a very forced show of opposition. We have had the usual complaints that on certain occasions the guillotine has fallen. We have been told that discussion has been stifled and that numerous Amendments have passed un-discussed. Ample time was allowed under the Guillotine Resolution for a full discussion of every Amendment of any importance on the Paper, and, if some of the Amendments of importance were not discussed, it was not the fault of the Government, but the fault of hon. Members opposite, who preferred to go on repeating over and over again arguments more appropriate to a Second Reading Debate on other Amendments rather than discuss seriously the points on which there might well have been a fair difference of opinion. I have expressed before my own view that the practice of the guillotine is one which is particularly favourable for a serious and reasoned discussion of the important points of a Bill, but, if it is to have that effect, it is of course necessary that the Opposition should rise to their responsibilities and do their part. On this occasion, we waited in vain for any indication of any leadership, for any interest on the part of the leaders of the party opposite in the proceedings of those behind them, or for any indication that one Amendment was more important than another.
The few speeches that have been made on the Third Reading of the Bill have not brought forward any new points. They have repeated old ones, and one or two fresh illustrations have been adduced. I was asked by the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Greenwood) to deal with some of the detailed points which he raised in his speech. As regards the hon. Member who has just sat down, I must point out that there is a singular inconsistency between his argument and the argument of the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne. The whole argument of the hon. Member for Hillsborough (Mr. A. V. Alexander) was that the relief we are giving is so small that it cannot possibly be of any use to anybody, whereas the argument of the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne was that it was grossly unfair that large sections of the community should be completely excluded from the benefit of the great reliefs which we were proposing to give. They cannot have it both ways. Either this relief is worth having or it is not. If it is worth having then the argument of the hon. Member for Hillsborough goes by the board. If it is not worth having the argument of the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne is destroyed. I will leave it to the two hon. Members, in the proximity in which I see them at the moment, to settle the question as to who is right.
The relief in the Bill is directed to three separate categories. In the first place, there is the relief to agriculture. Several observations have been made by hon. Members opposite about agriculture in the course of our Debates which we shall remember and we shall desire to draw the attention of others interested in that subject to them. There was, of course, the Amendment to leave agriculture out altogether from the benefits of the Bill, and there was also the very interesting statement made by the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne in his speech to-night, that for long years agriculture has been under-rated. I think that will be interesting news to the agriculturists in the country, and they will no doubt draw their own conclusions as to what would happen if the hon. Member ever had an opportunity of putting right this inequality in rating. I was not able to follow the argument and the illustration he brought forward with regard to the results of the working of the Rating and Valuation Act, 1925. If I understood him correctly, he found, from the rating book which he flourished before us, that agricultural land, on being revalued under the new assessment required by that Act, was brought down from £10 to £6, and from £6 to £4.
That does not look as if it had been under-rated in the past. On the contrary, it looks as though the authorities, when they came to inquire into the true rateable value of agricultural land to-day, found that it had been over-rated and that what they had to do was to bring it down to some figure more in accord with modern conditions. "But," the hon. Member says, "after all, that is not going to matter in the future, because there will not be any rates upon agricultural land." He also says that that is not going to help agriculture; that, we have already made remissions in rates on agricultural land which have now been in force for a number of years, with the result that agriculture is worse off than ever. In the last five years, I suppose, farmers have paid about £22,000,000 less in rates than they would have paid had the Agricultural Rates Acts not been in force. Will anybody tell me that the farmers are no better off because of the fact that they have not paid that £22,000,000? Such a contention would be absurd. The hon. Member, of course, knows perfectly well that agriculture has been undergoing a condition of affairs, which is not peculiar to this country, but is one which has afflicted agriculture all the world over, and that this remission of rates by which they have benefited, if it has not been able to give them prosperity—and nobody suggests that it has done that—at any rate must have saved many of them from bankruptcy and must have left others in an appreciably better position to meet their difficulties.
The short answer to the hon. Member is that the agriculturists themselves desire this relief. He says it is not very much. I agree that when you have already given three-quarters in relief, you cannot give very much more; but it does not follow that the relief is not worth having, even though it may only be the quarter that is left. As was properly said by the hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Womersley) in a most admirable speech, it has also removed from the mind of the farmer the grievance that he felt on a point of principle and not merely on a point of finance when he said, "You tax my land, but you are really taxing my stock in trade and the raw material of my business, and that is treating me in a way in which you do not treat other industries." But it is on the grounds of general equity and justice quite as much as on the ground of the necessity of the farmer that we have taken from them this last remnant of a system which they have long felt to be unjust. I am myself confident that they will feel the benefit of the relief though it may not restore them to prosperity and that they will welcome a Bill which enables them at last to get rid of their rating. Then we come to industry, and once again we have heard the complaint that our proposals deal with the prosperous and the unprosperous alike. We have heard that complaint repeated ad nauseam, but we have not heard a single suggestion from any Member of the two Oppositions as to how you could devise a scheme which would enable you to distinguish between the prosperous and the unprosperous.
:No.
I hear the hon. and learned Member opposite dissenting very loudly. May I remind him that his scheme, the scheme of the party to which he belongs, does not discriminate between prosperous and unprosperous industries? The hon. and learned Gentleman cannot deny that. The right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) had to admit that his scheme deals with one area differently from another area, but in the area which is dealt with all industries, prosperous or unprosperous, whether they be breweries or silk factories, are going to have the benefit of the relief. It does not lie in his mouth to say that our scheme is defective because we do not make a difference between prosperous and unprosperous industries. The hon. Member for Nelson and Colne declares that this is a very unfair scheme. He says: "Here you are; you have put on Safeguarding Duties, as a result of which foreign capitalists have flocked into this country and started new factories, giving employment to thousands of men." That is a very sore point, but his grievance is enhanced by the fact that we are now going to give American factories help. But they are no longer American factories; they are British factories, giving employment to British labour, and when they get our relief they will give employment to more British labour.
He says: "Why do you give relief to them and exclude entirely from relief the poor ex-service man who keeps his garage by the wayside? "He could not resist dragging in the ex-service man. He must always be brought in. But take the man who keeps a garage by the wayside. Has he nothing to gain under our scheme? If his occupation is the repairing of cars, the more cars that are used in this country the more occupation there will be for him, and if we are giving extra relief from rating to factories which are producing cars, if we enable them thereby further to reduce their costs, to expand their markets, to employ more people, some of that occupation will filter its way down even to the poor ex-service man.
No, Sir, all these contrasts which are invented and exploited for the purpose of drawing a picture, which after all is a false picture, for the benefit of the electors, lose sight of the basic principle which underlies the plan which the Government have adopted. What we have endeavoured to keep before ourselves has been this: How can we direct such money as we can find so that it will produce the largest possible effect and give the largest possible amount of increased employment for the people of this country? To give that relief to the householder, to give it even to the distributing agent, is not going to increase employment. The hon. Member opposite seems to think that if you redistribute the wealth of this country in a different way among the people of this country, that will increase the wealth and the purchasing power of the country. I cannot understand how a mere redistribution of wealth will increase the wealth, but I do say that if we can restore some prosperity to our industries, if we can enable them to reduce their costs—and I agree that the whole thing depends on that—we are going positively to increase the wealth of this country, which is going to be felt by every member of the community.
I remember that the hon. Member, in his speech on the Second Reading, said that the relief ought to have been given to the householder, and he spoke of the average working man who pays 4s. a week in rates. I doubt if that figure is typical, but I accept it for the purpose of the argument. The hon. Member said that if you gave him the three-quarters remission of rates which you are giving to industry, you would save him 3s a week, which might be spent in boots, clothing, jam, and I do not know what besides. But if you give him two more days' employment in the week, that will put three or four times as much money in his pocket. [ Interruption. ] It is no use hon. Members making prophesies of all sorts of evil that will come when they have not the evidence before them on which to prophesy. They have not confidence in their own prophesies, because they believe in their hearts that they are false prophets. We were told by the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne that the iron and steel trade would not be helped by the Government proposals, but that it would be actually damaged. Does the hon. Member really believe it?
In the iron and steel trades, wages are determined by the price of steel. If the right hon. Gentleman by his proposal reduces the cost of steel, he will reduce the wages of iron and steel workers.
I am glad to have elicited that information, because it is contradicted by the hon. Member for Hillsborough, who pointed out that it cannot possibly reduce the price of steel. Therefore, if he is right, his hon. Friend cannot be right. Suppose the hon. Member for Hillsborough turns out to be wrong, and that after all the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne is right, the effect of our relief will be to enable the iron and steel manufacturer to reduce his prices. If that be so, may we not expect that the earnings of the men in the steel trade, whatever the rates of wages, are bound to be higher and more men will be employed? [ Interruption. ]
rose —
If the Minister does not wish to give way, the hon. Member must not remain standing.
I am not entirely ignorant even of this particular subject. The wages of the men are governed, not by the price of steel when it reaches the customer, but by the price when it leaves the works, and, if the railway rates are being reduced, it is possible to raise the price at the works, and it may be that the workers will have their wages increased. I want to say a word about the matter which was mentioned by the hon. Member for Newport (Mr. Clarry) and the hon. Member for Plaistow (Mr. W. Thorne). They expressed the fear that the Bill as it stands might do injury to the gas trade, because they said that we are going to de-rate works which compete with the gas industry, not in making gas, but in making those articles which are byproducts of the gas trade. At first sight, there seems perhaps a good deal in that argument, but since the byproducts of the gas industry amount to something like 25 per cent. of the output of the industry, it ought to receive a rebate on 25 per cent. of the rateable value. I think it is admitted that a relief of that kind would amount to upwards of £450,000, whereas the corresponding relief to the coke ovens would, according to the best information available to me, only amount to £108,000. The effect, therefore, of putting the gas companies in the position my hon. Friend desires would not be to put them on an equality with their competitors. but would be to give them an advantage which would enable them to reduce the price of gas and bring them into serious conflict with their competitors, the electricity supply companies.
I would like to turn for one moment to a question of transport. We are told it is a very unfair thing that we should give relief to railways and not to road transport. I do not think that that is a statement which really bears any examination, and I doubt very much' whether the hon. Members who made it have examined it. What are the facts? The railways are not to be allowed to retain the relief from rating which they are to receive through the scheme. They are to pass it on, and they are not to pass it on indiscriminately to all the traffics which pass over the railways, but to certain selected traffics, and those selected traffics are just the traffics that do not go by road. Therefore, this unfair discrimination against road transport is entirely imaginary.
Will these advantages appear in a lower freight charge on these services?
Yes, they will appear in the lower charges on the traffics, but those are traffics which are peculiar to the railways and must travel by the railways, and the only advantage the railways can possibly get is that, if the trade in these traffics increases, the railways may expect to get the benefit of the increased traffic. We are told that, as a matter of fact, things will not work out in this way, and again and again we are faced with the authority of a Mr. Michael Faraday, whom we are habitually assured is the greatest living authority on rates. He is certainly a very eminent advocate, though whether his knowledge of rating is quite as good as his advocacy I am not prepared to say, but I gather, from the illustration given us by the hon. Member to-night, that he is really more concerned to find destructive criticism than he is to find any helpful information of the actual results of the proposals we are making. What are the statements quoted by the hon. Member opposite? He said, "Mr. Faraday says that the Government scheme will hand over £4,000,000 to the railways which is afterwards to be passed on to heavy traffics, but, he says, that has already been swallowed up because the railways have already lost receipts of very nearly £4,000,000 and, therefore, they will have to go to the Railway Commissioners in order to get a rise in their traffics." What on earth has the loss of receipts of the railways got to do with the proposals of the Government?
What particularly interested me, though I have not read the document, is that the hon. Member quoted Mr. Faraday as saying that, in his opinion, the fall in receipts was entirely due to high freights. The proposal of the Government is to lower the freights. If high freights have brought about lower receipts it is not unreasonable to suppose that lower freights will bring about an increase in receipts. If that is so, the difficulty will disappear. Even granted that a loss in receipts had been incurred, the railways will at least be better off by the £4,000,000 to be provided by the Government than if there had been no change. The railways must be better off to the extent of £4,000,000 than if our proposals had not been made. We are told by Members both of the Labour party and of the Liberal party that the basis of our proposal is altogether wrong. Some of them say that rating relief is necessary, others say that rating relief is not necessary. [HON. MEMBERS: "Who said that?"] I quote the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden) as saying that it was quite unfounded to say that the burden of rates had any serious effect upon industry.
I never said anything of the sort.
Then I will quote the exact words which the right hon. Gentleman used:
"It is equally unfounded to say that the increase of rates has a material effect in trade depression, or that the rating scheme which is proposed by the Government will meet any real need."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th June, 1928; col. 197, Vol. 218.]
I am speaking from memory, but I think that is exactly what I said just now, and that is the view of the right hon. Gentleman. But what is their plan? I know it is very easy when you have not got to bring forward any plan in the form of a White Paper or a formula or a Bill to say, "My plan will work ever so much better than yours." But do hon. Members really think it would work out if you were to take certain services from local authorities and hand them over to be national services? Take the question of the unemployed. Is it suggested that
we are to set up a great organisation right throughout the country to administer relief to the able-bodied unemployed?
You have got it now. [ Interruption. ]
I am glad to have elicited that statement. Do hon. Members opposite think it possible to set up throughout the country a bureaucracy to administer poor relief to one particular section of those who are now in receipt of poor relief? The two classes of applicants for relief would be constantly merging into one another. The man who is of the unemployed able-bodied to-day is to-morrow infirm or sick and becomes an ordinary case for relief. You cannot possibly separate the two classes. And as for that local knowledge and that local sympathy about which hon. Members opposite are always talking so much, where would that be if you are going to substitute for your local administration administrators who would take their orders from Whitehall and would carry out a rigid system according to rules? Hon. Members opposite have not thought out their plan. If they had, they would not venture to put it forward for serious consideration. The plan we have put forward, after long consideration and careful thought, is the one which we believe will prove to be most effective for the ends we have in view. It is to give relief to those centres which can expand under the stimulus of the relief we give them, and we believe that when the scheme operates we shall speedily see a reduction in unemployment and a return to prosperity.
Question put, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."
The House divided: Ayes, 326; Noes, 128.
Division No. 295.] AYES. [11.0 p.m. Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Barnett, Major Sir Richard Bowater. Col. Sir T. Vansittart Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B. Alexander, Sl- Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Bellairs, Commander Carlyon Braithwaite, Major A. N. Allen, Sir J. Sandeman Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Brass, Captain W. Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Bennett, A. J. Brassey, Sir Leonard Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Berry, Sir George Briggs, J. Harold Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. Bethel. A. Briscoe, Richard George Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) Betterton, Henry B. Brocklebank. C. E. R. Atholl, Duchess of Bevan, S. J. Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R I. Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Balfour, George (Hampstead) Blundell. F. N. Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham) Bainiel, Lord Boothby, R. J. G. Buchan. John Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Bullock, Captain M. Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John Moore, Sir Newton J. Burman, J. B. Grotrlan, H. Brent Moore-Erabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Burton, Colonel H. W. Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N.) Morden, Col. W. Grant Butt, Sir Alfred Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Gunston, Captain D. W. Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph Caine, Gordon Hall Hacking, Douglas H. Nelson, Sir Frank Campbell, E. T. Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Neville, Sir Reginald J. Carver, Major W. H. Hail, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Cassels, J. D. Hamilton, Sir George Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Nicholson, O. (Westminster) Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R.(Prtsmth. S.) Hammersley, S. S. Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hon. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.) Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Hanbury, C. Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Nuttall, Ellis Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.) Harland, A. O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Harrison, G. J. C. O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Hartington, Marquess of Oman, Sir Charles William C. Chapman, Sir S. Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William Christie, J. A. Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Pennefather, Sir John Churchman, Sir Arthur C. Haslam, Henry C. Penny, Frederick George Clarry, Reginald George Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxford, Henley) Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Cobb, Sir Cyril Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. Perkins, Colonel E. K. Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Henn, Sir Sydney H. Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) Cohen. Major J. Brunel Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy Philipson, Mabel Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Pilcher, G. Conway, Sir W. Martin Holt, Capt. H. P. Pllditch, Sir Philip Cooper, A. Duff Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) Power, Sir John Cecil Cope, Major Sir William Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Preston, William Couper, J. B. Hopkins, J. W. W. Price, Major C. W. M. Courtauld, Major J. S. Hopkinson. Sir A. (Eng. Universities) Radford, E. A. Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Raine, Sir Walter Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.) Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. Ramsden, E. Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim) Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Rawson, Sir Cooper Craig. Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) Hudson, R. S. (Cumb'I'nd, Whiteh'n) Rees, Sir Beddoe Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Hume, Sir G. H. Reid, Capt. Cunningham(Warrington) Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer Reid, D. D. (County Down) Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Hurd, Percy A. Remer, J. R. Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) Hurst, Gerald B. Rentoul, G. S. Curzon, Captain Viscount Iliffe, Sir Edward M. Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. Dalkeith, Earl of Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Iveagh, Countess of Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Robinson. Sir T. (Lancs, Stretford) Davies, Dr. Vernon Jephcott, A. R. Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) Ropner, Major L. Dawson, Sir Philip Kindersley, Major G. M. Ruggies-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. Dean, Arthur Wellesley King, Commodore Henry Douglas Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Drewe, C Knox, Sir Alfred Rye, F. G. Eden, Captain Anthony Lamb, J. Q. Salmon, Major I. Edmondson, Major A. J. Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Elliot, Major Walter E. Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Ellis, R. G. Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Sandeman, N. Stewart England, Colonel A. Little, Dr. E. Graham Sanders Sir Robert A. Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) Livingstone, A. M. Sanderson, Sir Frank Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey Savery, S. S Everard, W. Lindsay Long, Major Eric Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie Fairfax, Captain J. G. Looker, Herbert William Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Falle, Sir Bertram G. Lougher, Lewis Shepperson, E. W. Fanshawe, Captain G. D. Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down) Fermoy, Lord Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) Fielden, E. B. Lynn, Sir R. J. Skelton, A. N. Finburgh, S. MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Ford, Sir P. J. Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) Smith-Carington, Neville W. Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Smithers, Waidron Forrest, W. MacDonald, R. (Glasgow, Catheart) Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Foster, Sir Harry S. McLean, Major A. Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Fraser, Captain Ian Macmillan, Captain H. Sprot, Sir Alexander Frece, Sir Walter de Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Macquisten, F. A. Stanley, Lord (Fylde) Gadle, Lieut.-Col. Anthony MacRobert, Alexander M. Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) Galbraith, J. F. W. Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) Steel, Major Samuel Strang Ganzoni, Sir John Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- Storry-Deans, R. Gates, Percy Makins, Brigadier-General E. Streatfeild, Captain S. R. Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Malone, Major P. B Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Glyn, Major R. G. C. Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn Styles, Captain H. Walter Goff, Sir Park Margesson, Captain D. Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Gower, Sir Robert Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Grace, John Meller, R. J. Templeton, W. P. Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Merriman, Sir F. Boyd Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) Grant, Sir J. A. Milne, J. S. Wardlaw- Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) Thomson. Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell. Greases-Lord, Sir Walter Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) Tinne, J. A. Greene. W. P. Crawford Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Titchfield, Major the Marquess of Grenfell. Edward C. (City of London) Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple- Womersley, W. J. Waddington, R. Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde) Wallace, Captain D. E Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) Woodcock, Colonel H. C. Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central) Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L Warrender, Sir Victor Wilson, Sir Murrough (Yorks, Richm'd) Wragg, Herbert Waterhouse, Captain Charles Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley) Winby, Colonel L. P. Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Watts, Sir Thomas Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Commander B. Eyres Monsell and Wells, S. R. Wolmer, Viscount Major Sir George Hennessy.
NOES. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (File, West) Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Sakiatvala, Shapurji Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Hirst. G. H. Scrymgeour, E. Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Scurr, John Ammon, Charles George Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Sexton, James Attlee, Clement Richard Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Baker, Walter John, William (Rhondda, West) Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Parker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Shiels. Dr. Drummond Barnes, A. Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Shinwell, E. Barr, J. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Batey, Joseph Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Sitch, Charles H. Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Jones, W. N. (Carmarthen) Slesser, Sir Henry H. Briant, Frank Kelly, W. T. Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Broad, F. A. Kennedy, T. Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Bromley, J. Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Snell, Harry Brown, Ernest (Leith) Kirkwood, D. Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Lansbury, George Stamford, T. W. Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel Lawrence, Susan Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Charleton, H. C. Lawson, John James Strauss, E. A. Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Lee, F. Sullivan, J. Compton, Joseph Lindley, F. W. Sutton. J. E. Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities' Longbottom, A. W. Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton. E.) Crawford, H. E. Lowth, T. Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Dalton, Hugh Lunn, William Tomlinson, R. P. Davies, Rhys John (Westhsoghton) MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) Townend, A. E. Duncan, C. Mackinder, W. Trevelyan, Rt. Hon C. P. Dunnico, H. MacLaren, Andrew Vlant, S. P. Fenby, T. D. Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Watson, W. M. (Dunfermilne) Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. Montague, Frederick Wetts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Gibbins. Joseph Morris. R. H Wellock, Wilfred Gillett, George M. Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Westwood, J. Gosling, Harry Murnin, H. Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Naylor, T. E. Wiggins, William Martin Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colns) Oliver, George Harold Williams, C. P. (Denbigh. Wrexham) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Owen, Major G. Williams, David (Swansea. East) Griffith. F. Kingsley Palin, John Henry Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Grundy. T. W. Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Atterclifes) Hall, F. (York., W. R., Normanton) Ponsonby, Arthur Windsor, Walter Hall. G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Potts, John S. Wright, W Hardie, George D. Purcell, A. A. Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Harney, E. A. Richardson, R. (Houghton-is-Spring) Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Riley, Ben TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Hayday, Arthur Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Paling. Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) Robinson, W. C.(Yorks, W. R., Elland)
Bill read the Third time, and passed.
Solicitors Bill
Order for Consideration of Lords Amendments read.
Motion made, and Question, "That the Lords Amendments be now considered," put, and agreed to.—[ Mr. Dennis Herbert. ]
Lords Amendments considered accordingly, and agreed to.
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
Adjournment
Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[ Commander Eyres Monsell. ]
Adjourned accordingly at Seventeen Minutes after Eleven o'Clock.