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Commons Chamber

Volume 220: debated on Thursday 19 July 1928

House of Commons

Thursday, July 19, 1928

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

Private Business

Sheffield Corporation Bill [ Lords ],

Read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments.

Bridlington Harbour Provisional Order Bill,

Ministry of Health Provisional Orders Confirmation (No. 9) Bill [ Lords ],

As amended, considered; to be read the Third time To-morrow.

Oral Answers to Questions

Naval and Military Pensions and Grants

Disability Pensions

asked the Minister of Pensions why a pension has been refused in the case of Mr. V. E. Preston, ex-private, 66951, Machine Gun Corps, of 11, Oak Street, Newton, Cheshire, who was wounded at Ypres in September, 1917, and demobilised in March, 1919, who applied for pension in respect of a foreign body in the spine in October, 1927; was, after examination by a Ministry medical officer, admitted to Grangethorpe Hospital for operative treatment on 3rd January, 1928; was operated on on 19th January, 1928, and discharged from the hospital on 17th February, 1928, having, while in the hospital, been informed on 6th January, 1928, that he was not entitled to pension, though suffering from war wounds indubitably due to war service?

At the time when the operative treatment which was given by the Ministry for the old war wound was successfully concluded, no sufficient degree of disablement was found to justify a grant of pension. The case is, however, being kept in view and any further action that is found to be called for will be taken.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that when this man had the operation in January this year he received a letter disallowing a pension? Will the right hon. Gentleman reconsider the matter, seeing that the man is an absolute wreck after the operation?

My information is to the contrary. When he was in hospital, he would be drawing full allowances, which are higher than full pension. If the man's wound should give further trouble, we should be most happy to give him any further treatment which may be desirable.

If I bring further details to the notice of the Minister, will he attend to them?

asked the Minister of Pensions whether his attention has been called to the case of Mr. Frank Smith, 6/MS/10349, who enlisted voluntarily in the Northamptonshire Regiment on the 31st August, 1914, and was demobilised on the 19th February, 1919, after having served 335 days overseas; that, in addition to minor wounds, he served 74 days in hospital as a result of a gunshot wound in the left chest; that on return to civil life he did not claim a pension, but in 1925 was obliged to submit a claim on account of pulmonary tuberculosis and gunshot wound in the left chest; that the Ministry of Pensions regard his tuberculosis as a post-War infection, in spite of the fact that three independent medical opinions attribute it to war service; whether he will give reconsideration to this particular case; and whether, in view of the number of doubtful cases of this sort in which the opinion of the tribunal and of the Ministry must turn in fact on a matter of medical opinion, he will consider reopening the whole question of the machinery for dealing with these borderline cases by setting up an independent medical appeal tribunal?

All the facts mentioned by the hon. Member were carefully con- sidered by the Ministry before rejecting the claim and were before the independent Appeal Tribunal which disallowed the man's appeal. I am advised that there are no grounds to justify any further action. As regards the last part of the question, I would remind the hon. Member that the independent tribunal for which he asks already exists in the form of the Pensions Appeal Tribunal, to which the man referred to in this case has in fact resorted.

Is it not a fact that the appeal tribunal expressed an opinion which is purely an opinion against that of three independent medical men?

It is not merely a question of expressing an opinion; it is a question of the properly constituted tribunal giving a final decision on this matter, under the law of the country.

What ground has the Minister for saying that three paid servants of the Government know more about this question than three independent medical men?

The matter which the tribunal decided was a later problem, and they are the proper authoritiy to deal with it, as the hon. Member himself suggests.

I beg to give notice that, as this is a matter which cannot be raised conveniently by question and answer, I shall call attention at the earliest possible date to the unsympathetic treatment of some of these men who gave their services to the country.

Widow's Pension (Mrs. J. Stock)

asked the Minister of Pensions whether his attention has been ailed to the case of Mrs. J. Stock, 37, Manfield Road, Northampton, Ministry of Pensions No. 11/W/35,593, widow of Frank Lambert Stock, Northants Regiment, who joined up in 1915, was demobilised in 1919, and claimed pension in May, 1926, which was allowed on appeal, it being decided that pernicious anemia was attributable to service, and pension on 100 per cent. disablement being awarded; that Mr. Stock died on the 3rd March, 1928, and that the claim of his widow, Mrs. Stock, under Article 17b has been rejected, thereby overriding the decision of the previous appeal; and whether he will make further inquiries into this case?

The widow in this case has been granted a pension of £1 11s. 8d. a week for herself and her child under Article 17a of the Royal Warrant. Her claim to the higher rate of pension, available under Article 17b in cases where it is found that the husband's death was, in the terms of the Article, wholly due to War service, was not found by the Ministry to be admissible. This decision did not over-ride the finding of the Pensions Appeal Tribunal on her late husband's original claim, and in fact the widow's appeal against the decision on her own claim was disallowed by the tribunal.

Stabilisation

asked the Minister of Pensions whether he is yet in a position to make an announcement as to the stabilisation of pensions?

asked the Minister of Pensions whether he has under consideration the question of stabilising pensions once and for all; and, if so, whether he will be in a position to announce his proposals before the end of the Session

If, as I presume, the reference intended is to the stabilisation of the pension rates of the Great War Warrants so far as they are at present liable to fluctuation in accordance with the cost of living, I would refer the hon. Members to the answer which I gave to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Hexham (Colonel Clifton Brown) on the 23rd May, of which I am sending both hon. Members a copy. I hope to be in a position to make a statement before the end of the present Session.

Mental Cases

asked the Minister of Pensions how many ex-service men are being maintained in mental institutions by the Ministry directly and by means of a special Exchequer grant, respectively; and whether pensions are paid to the dependants of such men?

The number of ex-service patients in mental institutions, whose maintenance is defrayed by my Department under the Royal Warrants as that of patients whose disability is due to Great War service, was, at the end of June, 6,292. The special arrangements made in 1924 for the maintenance by means of Exchequer grants of a certain number of cases of ex-service men in mental institutions, whose condition was not due to War service, does not come within my province, but I understand the number of cases so maintained is rather over 500. The allowances available under the Pension Warrants for the dependants of ex-service patients are, of course, payable in the former class of case only.

Does the right hon. Gentleman not think that the dependants of those who are obviously border-line cases should have an allowance of some kind?

No, Sir, I agree with the decision of the Labour Government on this matter. These are not border-line cases, but cases quite definitely not accepted as being due to the War.

Does the Minister agree that provision should be made for these men through this special Exchequer grant, and does not that fact show that there should be a liability in connection with their dependants?

No, Sir, I do not see why the Government should accept responsibility for these dependants. If they did so, they would have to do the same for the dependants of all ex-service men whose physical disabilities have been found to be not due to war service. That is the decision of the Labour Government.

Can the right hon. Gentleman tell me of any other cases where there are these special Exchequer grants, and does not this special Exchequer grant show that there is a connection?

No, Sir, the whole basis of the Exchequer grant is that these cases are not due to War service.

Dangerous Drugs Act (Allonal)

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the German drug allonal is among those governed by the Dangerous Drugs Act; if not, whether he is aware of the growing demand for this drug and of the danger entailed in its use; and whether he will take steps to ensure that allonal should not be available without a doctor's prescription?

The Dangerous Drugs Acts do not apply to "Allonal" which is understood to be the proprietary name given by a Swiss firm of manufacturing chemists to a derivative of barbituric acid. I am aware of the dangers and have brought the question of the need for further restrictions in the case of these drugs before the Inter-Departmental Committee which has been examining the law relating to poisons.

Police

Chepping Wycombe

asked the Home Secretary if his attention has been called to the recommendations of the House of Commons Local Legislation Committee, of 5th April, 1927, wherein the magistrates of Chepping Wycombe were urged to take steps to transfer their police force to the police force of the county of Buckingham; and what steps have been taken to effect to the recommendation?

I am aware of the observations of the Local Legislation Committee on the subject and an application was made to me by the police authority of the county to take certain steps with a view to merger of the borough force under the provisions of a local Act of 1880. After full consideration, and hearing the representations of the Standing Joint Committee, I came to the conclusion that this particular matter should not be proceeded with until Parliament had had an opportunity to pronounce on the general question of which it forms part.

Stolen Property (Receivers)

asked the Home Secretary the practice obtaining in the Metropolitan Police when requests are received from provincial police forces for action in connection with alleged receivers of stolen property; whether he has received any complaints during the past two years that prompt and proper action has not been taken and whether on investigation such complaints have been well-founded or otherwise?

The precise action depends on the circumstances of the case which vary considerably, but it is no less energetic and prompt when the request emanates from a provincial force than it would be if the matter originated in the Metropolitan Police District. No such complaint as that referred to in the second part of the question can be traced, and the third part therefore does not arise.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether information has yet been supplied to him in regard to a complaint made that a certain county chief constable has made allegations of this kind?

I have received from my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Luton (Captain O'Connor) a long letter of very many pages which I have not completely read, but it does not give the name of the chief constable in question.

Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate the importance of this in connection with the new inquiry as affecting every provincial police authority, and that, so long as the chief constable is not named, every chief constable is under suspicion and reciprocity arrangements are thereby endangered?

I entirely agree, but my hon. and gallant Friend is not in the House at the moment. I shall be answering his letter. The position is that when an hon. Member makes a statement and is not prepared to give the name, it places me and the police force in a very great difficulty.

Is it not a fact that the hon. and gallant Member for Luton has already volunteered to give any information at his disposal to the Commission which is proposed to be set up?

I am afraid that my hon. and gallant Friend has not seen the letter which I received last night from the hon. and gallant Member for Luton.

Has the right hon. Gentleman the names of people or firms who are in the habit of receiving stolen property, and if so would he keep a close watch upon them?

One of the main duties of the police is to watch the receivers of stolen goods many of whom are known by name and position, and, whenever a burglary or theft takes place, the first thing the police do is to keep an eye on these people who may be the channel for disposal of the goods.

Transport

Motor Traffic (Accidents)

asked the Home Secretary the number of deaths caused by motor vehicles in each year from 1908 to 1927, inclusive?

I am able to give the number of fatal accidents for the years 1909–1927 inclusive. The number of persons killed—as distinct from the number of accidents—is available for 1926 and 1927 only, and I will cause the available information to be circulated with the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Is the right hon. Gentleman proposing any drastic action to reduce this shocking record?

Has the right hon. Gentleman considered the plan of limiting licences to those who are qualified to drive?

That is a question which hardly arises out of the question on the Paper. There is a good deal to be said on both sides.

I was not asked for it.

Following is the information:

NUMBER Of FATAL STREET ACCIDENTS caused by Mechanically Propelled Vehicles, (excluding Tramcars) in England and Wales and in Great Britain showing (a) Fatal Accidents during the years 1909 to 1927 and (b) Persons killed in the years 1926 and 1927.

Year.

England and Wales.

Great Britain.

Fatal Accidents.

1909

334

373

1910

483

539

1911

658

727

1912

826

916

1913

1,052

1,154

1914

1,208

1,329

1915

1,654

1,810

1916

1,499

1,651

1917

1,281

1,406

1918

1,144

1,280

1919

1,586

1,746

1920

1,812

2,010

1921

1,825

2,091

1922

1,958

2,222

1923

2,205

2,435

1924

2,750

3,019

1925

3,032

3,401

1926

3,662

4,155

1927

3,947

4,480

Persons Killed.

1926

3,729

4,234

1927

4,062

4,606

Motoring Offences (Police Warning)

asked the Home Secretary whether, seeing that, following a conference at Scotland Yard, it has been decided that motorists in the Metropolitan police area who are charged with trivial motoring offences are not to be prosecuted provided that they had not offended before, but are to receive a warning letter from the Commissioner, he will give the text of the letter in question?

A certain number of warning letters have been issued, but I am personally reconsidering the terms and will inform my hon. Friend in due course.

Can my right hon. Friend say what offences should result in a warning, otherwise it might result in prejudging a case?

The moderate type of offence of which the hon. and gallant Member has experience.

Proposed Bridge, Dornie, Ross-Shire

asked the Minister of Transport what arrangements, if any, have now been made to proceed with the construction of the proposed bridge at Dornie, in the Kintail district of Boss-shire?

I understand that the District Committee propose, during the coming autumn, to apply for a provisional order enabling the bridge to be built, and I hope very shortly to be able to intimate what measure of assistance can be given from the Road Fund towards the necessary preliminary expenses.

Stationary Tramcars (Accidents)

asked the Minister of Transport whether he has any information as to the number of accidents, fatal and non-fatal, caused to persons boarding or dismounting from stationary tramcars within the Metropolitan area?

I have been asked to reply. The number of fatal accidents during the year to 30th June last was 21. I regret I cannot give the number which had no fatal result.

In view of the frequent requests for regulations to prevent vehicle passing stationary tramcars, is it not important that we should know the exact number of accidents?

It is a very particular form of accident, and up to the present there has been no class in which it could be placed. If an additional class were made, it would involve extra work.

Should not there be a special form of regulations prohibiting vehicles passing stationary tramcars?

Would not the provision of trolleys instead of tramways do much to avoid these accidents, because the cars would be able to pull up to the side of the road?

Government Departments

Home Office (Appointments)

asked the Home Secretary what is the total number of vacancies for posts with mini- mum salaries of £300 or over which have occurred in the Home Office since 1921, when the Civil Service was declared by Parliament to be equally open to men and women, which have been filled by a transfer from other Departments or by appointments under Clause 7; and how many of these vacancies have been filled by women?

Since 1st January, 1921, 26 vacancies for established posts in the Home Office with minimum salaries of £300 or more have been filled by transfer from other Departments or by appointments under Clause 7. In 13 of the cases the officer was already serving in the Department either in an established or unestablished capacity. Three of the vacancies were filled by the appointment of women.

Tax Offices

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Board of Inland Revenue has put, or contemplates putting, into operation a scheme for the reduction of offices for the collection of Income Tax; and. if now in operation, what number of offices have been closed, what saving in expenditure has been gained, and how many part-time or other officials have been or will be dispensed with?

The hon. Member is possibly aware that only a small proportion of the appointments of collectors of taxes are made by the Board of Inland Revenue. Within that limited sphere it has been their policy to reduce the number of part-time officials by the merger of small collections, wherever practicable, when vacancies occur. A further step has been made possible by the passing of Section 30 of the Finance Act, 1927. In areas in which the bulk of the appointments are in the hands of the Board, a reorganisation of the collection arrangements is contemplated, which aims at local concentration of the work in a single office staffed on Civil Service lines. One such office has been opened at Southampton, embracing the areas formerly dealt with by 10 collectors. With the exception of one part-time official, the collectors concerned have been allotted posts in the new organisation. It is hoped in the near future to form seven other offices of this sort, the areas formerly dealt with by roughly 50 collectors. The changes proposed are in the interests of efficiency, but a substantial economy will ultimately accrue.

Income Tax Collectors

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether it is the practice for collectors of Income Tax to provide out of their remuneration an office staff and other incidental expenses; and whether he proposes to reorganise the collection service by substituting established civil servants under the Board of Inland Revenue for the existing system?

As regards the first part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given on the 10th July to the hon. Member for Newton (Mr. R. Young), of which I am sending him a copy. The second part of the inquiry is covered by the reply which I have given to question No. 55.

Scottish Board of Health

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if overtime is still being worked in the contributory pensions division of the Scottish Board of Health; if extra duty is contemplated in the alterations branch of that Department; and whether he will reconsider assigning part of the overtime duties to ex-service temporary clerks under notice of dismissal?

Overtime is at present being worked in the pensions issue branch of the Board but in order to reduce its amount as far as possible additional temporary staff is being engaged. So far as the alterations branch is concerned, certain urgent work has to be overtaken in the course of the next few months, and as this work requires special knowledge, it is not possible to employ temporary staff to such an extent as would entirely obviate the need for overtime. As regards the last part of the question, it is not the intention to dispense with the services of any ex-service temporary clerks at the moment.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether a definite assurance can be given that no new entrants to the clerical or writing assistants grades will be recruited by the Scottish Board of Health, and that no transfers to that Department will be effected while ex-service temporary clerks are under notice of dismissal or are available for further employment?

The only recruitment to the clerical and writing assistant grades in the Scottish Board of Health will be to fill vacancies in the permanent establishment. Additional temporary staff is at present being engaged to the full extent of the suitable candidates available on the books of the Joint Substitution Board.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if his attention has been drawn to the reply to the Financial Secretary to the Treasury on 14th June regarding the promotion of ex-service P (probationary) class officers in other Departments; and whether he will reconsider the question of promotion of members of that grade in the Scottish Board of Health?

I have seen the reply referred to. The question of the promotion of "P" class men to the clerical grade in the Scottish Board of Health is receiving consideration and the Staff Side of the Departmental Whitley Council have been so informed.

Clearing Office for Enemy Debts (Mr. Kramer)

asked the President of the Board of Trade the proportion of cases of alleged statelessness which were settled by the intervention of Mr. Kramer as agent for the applicant; whether minutes were kept of the negotiations which led to the release of large sums of money; and whether, seeing that, in the many cases which the legal advisers to the Enemy Debt Department regarded as subject to the charge created by the Treaty of Versailles and St. Germain, the legal advisers informed the applicants that the issue in their claim was open to doubt and would require a decision in the Courts, he will state why these cases were settled with Mr. Samuel Kramer without a decision of the Courts?

Claims for the release of property on the ground of statelessness have been made constantly since 1919. A complete record of these cases could not be made without a disproportionate expenditure of time and labour, but their number runs into hundreds. As the hon. Member has already been informed, 19 cases were dealt with by Mr. Kramer acting as agent for the applicant. Minutes were kept of the negotiations which led to the settlement of these cases. With regard to the last part of the question, I have nothing to add to the reply I gave to the hon. Member on the 3rd July.

Have the Department satisfied themselves with regard to the standing of this gentleman, and have they any knowledge of the conditions under which this Mr. Kramer was acting?

Crime, Devon (Probation Orders)

asked the Home Secretary the number of proved charges, including convictions, in the courts of summary jurisdiction in the county of Devon during the 12 months ended 31st December, 1927; the number of sentences of imprisonment passed; the number of probation orders made; and the number of full-time probation officers employed in the county?

As the answer includes a number of figures I will circulate it, with the hon. Member's permission, in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman is satisfied that full use is being made of probation in the country?

That is a terribly big question. The hon. Member knows that I am frequently twitted with preaching more than I ought the desirability of extending the use of probation, but it is undoubtedly being extended throughout the country.

Following is the answer:

According to the annual police returns for 1927, the figures are as follow:—

Devon Administrative County (including Tiverton Borough).

Exeter County Borough.

Plymouth County Borough.

Number of proved charges (including convictions) at Courts of Summary Jurisdiction.

3,305

445

1,039

Sentences of imprisonment without option of fine

236

25

74

Number of Probation Orders made

29

28

120

The number of full-time probation officers is two, both employed by Plymouth County Borough. I may add that the question of the organisation of probation work is under the consideration of the county authorities, and I have at present before me a scheme for the constitution of a combined county probation area submitted by the Court of Quarter Sessions under Section 2 (4) of the Criminal Justice Act, 1925.

Isle of Man (Contributory Pensions)

asked the Home Secretary on what grounds he advised withholding the Royal Assent to the Old Age, Widows', and Orphans' Pensions Bill passed several months ago by both branches of the Isle of Man Legislature, which action withholds from the Manx people the benefits of insurance under these heads?

The Bill contained a Clause of a novel and unprecedented nature, which, I am advised would have imposed a heavy and indefinite liability on the insular funds. I therefore felt it my duty to inform the Lieutenant-Governor that I could not recommend for the Royal Assent a Measure containing the Clause in question, but that if it were re-submitted without this Clause, I would recommend it immediately for the Royal Assent. I understand that the action of a minority of the House of Keys who voted against the suspension of Standing Orders prevented the reintroduction of the Bill, after the position had been fully explained by the Lieutenant-Governor.

Does the novel part of this Bill to which the right hon. Gentleman refers mean that they are producing a better scheme for pensions than that which operates in this country, and that for that reason the right hon. Gentleman is advising against the Royal Assent being given?

They produced a scheme which would have involved the Island's finances in very great difficulty.

In view of the fact that this Bill was passed by the House of Keys and the Tynwald, and that they realised the expenditure which was involved, did they ask the right hon. Gentleman to save them from that expenditure?

The right hon. Gentleman has certain liabilities, and has to deal with all the Bills which come up from the local legislature of the Isle of Man, and, in accordance with my duties as Home Secretary, I could not put this particular Measure before His Majesty.

As the people of the Island will be called upon to bear the expenditure, why does the right hon. Gentleman interfere with it?

Can the right hon. Gentleman tell the House what is the official relationship between the hon. Member opposite who asked the question and the Isle of Man?

Conviction, Norwich

asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been drawn to the case of a domestic servant, aged 22, a first offender, who is motherless and homeless, who was recently sen- tenced to six months' imprisonment with hard labour by the Norwich Magistrates for stealing £2; and whether he will examine this case with a view to the remission of the sentence?

The Justices themselves drew my attention to this case, and I am considering what will be the best course to take in the interest of the girl herself.

In considering this case, will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that at the same time that this young woman was sentenced to six months' hard labour a wealthy lady from Kensington who was charged with stealing a handbag from a store—

Mayor of Salford

asked the Home Secretary if he can see his way to recommend that the City of Salford should be granted the privilege of having its Chief Magistrate styled Lord Mayor, as was done last week in the case of Nottingham, Leicester, Stoke, and Portsmouth?

May I ask if the Home Secretary is aware that from the point of view of antiquity, of industrial importance, and population, Salford ranks as high as any of these four other boroughs, and, indeed, was made a city at the same time as one of the four which has now had this honour conferred upon it?

I am aware of all these facts as it was my privilege to advise His Majesty to make it a city, but I have not yet found it possible to advise His Majesty to confer the honour of Lord Mayor on Salford.

Aliens (British Wives)

asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that an Englishwoman who marries an American living in this country loses her nationality and is unable to obtain American citizenship unless she resides in her husband's country for 12 months; and whether, under such circumstances, he can arrange for the woman to retain her British nationality until she is qualified to obtain the nationality of another country?

Yes, Sir; but any hardships in this connection are the result of changes in the United States law some six years ago. As regards the possibility of any amendment of the longstanding English law that a British woman loses her British nationality by marrying an alien, I can only refer to the answer I gave on the 2nd instant.

As it is only a case with regard to British women marrying Americans, and as they are unable to obtain passports and have no civil rights at all, could not the right hon. Gentleman until they are qualified allow them to retain their British citizenship?

It is a difficult question. I explained on the last occasion that I have no power. It would mean a new Act of Parliament dealing with the nationality laws of Great Britain, and it would create a difference between our laws and the laws of the rest of the Empire. We are anxious to keep the nationality laws the same throughout the Empire.

Is it within the recollection of the right hon. Gentleman that this House in its early days passed a unanimous Resolution asking the Government to take some steps in this direction, and in view of that cannot the Government do something definite?

The Government have done something definite. The matter was raised by them at the Imperial Conference two years ago. I myself was Chairman of the Committee of that Conference which dealt with the whole question, and I think it appears in the Report of the Conference that in consequence of the objection of one of the Dominions we were unable to arrive at a decision.

Education

Teachers

asked the President of the Board of Education what establishments of teachers have been approved by the Board for 1928–29, as compared with the previous year?

The establishments of teachers approved by the Board for the year 1928–29 are estimated at 170,640, as against 168,951 for the previous year.

School Buildings (Planning)

asked the President of the Board of Education what is the present constitution of the Committee appointed by him to advise upon the planning of school buildings; what are the names of the members of the Committee; what are the terms of reference; is it intended to publish a Report; and, in view of the abrogation of the building regulations, is it proposed to issue a circular or memorandum indicating generally the views of the Board with regard to the planning of school buildings, as in the case of other matters of educational interest and policy?

I am circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT the names of the members at present constituting this Committee and the terms of reference. I hope that the results of the Committee's inquiries will be published in the autumn. As regards the last part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to paragraph 5 ( d ) of Circular 1375, a copy of which I am sending him.

Is the list a very long one? Cannot the Noble Lord read it to the House?

Sir Frank Baines, chairman, Sir G. F. N. Clay and Mr. G. Topham Forrest.

Will this Committee be empowered to go into the question of furnishing schools as well as planning them in view of the great expense now being incurred in refurnishing schools?

No; its terms of reference relate to construction, and I do not think it would be wise to extend them.

Following are the names:

The Committee is at present constituted as follows:

Sir Frank Baines, C.V.O., C.B.E., F.R.I.B.A. (Chairman);

Sir G.F.N. Clay, F.R.I.B.A.;

Mr. G. Topham Forrest, F.R.S.E., F.R.I.B.A., F.G.S.; with Mr. A. F. Birch-Jones, M.C. (Secretary).

The late Sir Charles Ruthen, Director-General of Housing, Ministry of Health, was also a member of the Committee.

The terms of reference are: "To inquire and report as to the construction of school buildings with special reference to (i) the use of new materials and methods of construction; and (ii) the reduction of cost."

Dominions and Colonies (Instruction)

asked the President of the Board of Education what proportion of the time devoted to geography and history in the elementary schools is given to the study of our Dominions and Colonies; and whether, with a view to dispelling the widespread ignorance and indifference which exist and to encouraging Empire emigration among the next generation, he will initiate a policy of fuller instruction in subjects pertaining to the Dominions and Colonies?

The Board do not prescribe the amount of time to be devoted to individual subjects of the curriculum. They have, however, in the volume of "Suggestions for Teachers," drawn the attention of local authorities and teachers to the importance of instruction in the history and geography of the Empire, and the "Weekly Bulletins," published in connection with the Wembley Exhibition, have added a stimulus to the study of this subject. I have every reason to believe that the importance of a knowledge of the history and development of the Empire is fully recognised by school authorities in the framing of syllabuses of instruction.

Are the children being taught how the American colonies were lost by the Tories?

Condemned Schools (Reconstruction)

asked the President of the Board of Education, in view of the fact that his Department has condemned, in England and Wales, 544 schools, accommodating 140,000 scholars, what sum he proposes to devote, during the next financial year, to the partial or complete reconstruction of condemned schools; how many schools will be dealt with; how many of the schools to be reconstructed are in Wales; and, in the case of the latter, how many children will be affected?

The reconstruction or replacement of these schools is a matter for the local authorities, or, in the case of voluntary schools, for the school managers, and grant is payable by the Board on the authorities' approved expenditure for this purpose. The number of schools now remaining to be dealt with is 522, of which 69 are in Wales. Plans for dealing with 113 of these schools (including 12 schools in Wales) have already been approved, and proposals for dealing with a considerable number of other cases have been received and are under consideration. The number of children on the registers of the 12 Welsh schools is 3,185.

Is it a fact that the Noble Lord's Department is insisting upon new benches of a very expensive type in these schools?

Poor Law

Bread Stations

asked the Minister of Health in how many cases individual boards of guardians or joint vagrancy committees have adopted the system of bread stations for providing casuals with food en route to the next ward; and whether he is satisfied with the system?

I am afraid this information is not available, there being no necessity for boards of guardians or for vagrancy committees to report their proceedings in the matter to me. The system has certain advantages and certain disadvantages, and I should not be prepared to take steps to require its universal adoption or its universal rejection. The matter is one better left to local discretion.

Will the Minister make inquiries as to those areas where a tramp has to be at a bread station not later than three o'clock; otherwise he cannot get a midday meal? In view of the fact that many of the old men on the road cannot possibly walk the necessary distance to reach a bread station by that hour, will the right hon. Gentleman do his best to see that some arrangement is made for them in that respect?

As I have said, I think this is a matter which has to be decided by the local guardians in each particular case, according to the circumstances of the locality.

If the Minister learns of any places where the guardians will not consider favourably the proposal to make it possible for these old men to get a midday meal, will he take action in the matter?

Perhaps if the hon. Member has any particular case in mind, he will give me particulars of it.

Stone-Breaking

asked the Minister of Health whether his attention has been called to any cases of refusal by casuals to perform the task of stone-breaking when imposed.

Able-Bodied Single Men

asked the Minister of Health whether he is prepared to sanction the granting of out-relief in distressed areas to able-bodied unmarried men who have exhausted their benefit under the Unemployment Acts.

I cannot undertake to give any general sanction, but I am always prepared to give consideration to the circumstances of a particular case where the guardians consider that there are special grounds for departing from the regulations.

Is the Minister aware that this is the way in which his Commissioners in West Ham are saving money?

If so, they are complying with regulations passed in 1911 by Mr. John Burns.

Housing

Rent Restrictions Act

asked the Minister of Health whether it is proposed to renew the Rent Restrictions Act without amendment and for how long a period.

I propose to make an announcement on the subject before the House rises.

Statement showing progress made under the Housing (Rural Workers) Act, 1926.

County of Lancashire.

County of Hampshire.

England and Wales.

(a) Number of dwellings in respect of which applications for assistance had been made.

8

41

1,072

(b) Number of dwellings in respect of which assistance had been promised.

3

17

334

(c) Number of dwellings on which work had been finished.

44

(d) Number of dwellings on which work was in Progress.

17

176

(e) Total amount of assistance promised by way of—

(i) Grants £

280

1,387

25,313

(ii) Loans £

100

2,760

The figures for Lancashire and Hampshire are up to 30th June, 1928. As complete returns for the whole country are not yet available the figures for England and Wales are up to the 31st March, 1928.

asked the Minister of Health if he will publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT, for the information of Members, the notice which he is issuing to local authorities of the formation of advisory panels of architects and others to give free advice upon the reconditioning of cottages and other buildings under the Housing (Rural Workers) Act, 1926, so as not to destroy their picturesque appearance or their historical associations?

I am proposing to issue a circular to local authorities, drawing their attention to the formation of the advisory panels in question, and it would perhaps meet my hon. Friend's object if, when the circular is sent out, copies were placed in the Library of the House.

Rural Workers Act

asked the Minister of Health to what extent throughout the country the reconstruction and reconditioning of country cottages has taken place under the terms of the Housing (Rural Workers) Act, 1926; what has been done in the counties of Lancashire and Hampshire; and what financial help has been given in these counties and in the country, respectively.

As the reply involves a number of figures I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the reply:

Would it not get a wider circulation if the suggestion in my question were adopted as well?

Perhaps the hon. Member will wait and see the result of the circular.

Is this being done because the county authorities have not taken advantage of this housing scheme?

Scheme, Filey (Doors)

asked the Minister of Health whether he can take any action to secure equal consideration for British work in respect of the tenders for 24 houses advertised by the Filey Urban District Council?

I have now been informed by the Filey Urban District Council that they have removed the reservation relating to Swedish doors which was included in error in the specification for the houses in question.

Is it the case that this specification which has now been withdrawn, was, in fact, approved by the right hon. Gentleman's Department.

Local Authorities (Direct Labour)

asked the Minister of Health the names of all local authorities who have erected, or are erecting, subsidy houses on the principle of direct labour, and also the numbers of those completed and under erection at the latest available date?

I will have a statement prepared and will send it to the hon. Member.

Coal Industry

Oil Extraction

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that foreign coal interests are negotiating for the exclusive rights of a low-carbonisation process for the extraction of oil from coal and the manufacture of smokeless fuel, invented by Mr. Charles Turner and now in experimental operation at Coalburn, Lanarkshire; and whether, in the national interest, he will have immediate inquiries made with a view to the retention of this process in British hands?

I have been asked to reply. His Majesty's Government have no knowledge of the negotiations which the hon. Member mentions, but the Fuel Research Board are aware of the nature of the process, and there appears to be no reason in the national interest to interfere with the owner's freedom to dispose of his rights in it as he thinks fit.

How long is it since the Fuel Research Board made inquiries into this process; and does the hon. and gallant Gentleman think it in the national interest that valuable properties should be acquired by Polish coal interests?

I could not say when it was last seen by the Fuel Research Board. They have visited it, but the promoters of the scheme have not asked for an official inspection of it.

May I ask for a reply to my question as to whether the hon. and gallant Gentleman thinks it in the national interest that Polish coal interests should be allowed to come over here and purchase valuable properties?

As I have said in my answer, there appears to be no reason in the national interest to interfere with the owner's freedom to dispose of his rights.

Distressed Areas (Relief)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he can now say whether the Government have decided to come to the assistance of distressed mining areas; and what steps they propose to take to give immediate relief?

I am not yet in a position to add to the answer given to the hon. Member for Pontypool (Mr. T. Griffiths) on the 12th July.

Will the Chancellor be in a position next week to give me an answer to this question?

I have already said, on behalf of the Government, that a statement will be made before Parliament separates. There is, I understand, a Debate on the question of unemployment next week, and possibly that might be made an opportunity for the statement.

Dog Racing Bill

asked the Prime Minister whether the Government propose to give facilities for the passage this Session of the Dog Racing Bill?

In view of the Bill not having yet been reported, I regret that I see no prospect of finding time for the remaining stages.

Does that answer mean that, while we are spending two days, with the prospect of two nights as well, in considering the Totalisator Bill, this Bill, which is intended to give local authorities the right of vetoing unnecessary dog racing, is not to get Government facilities at all?

There are two answers to that question. The first is that this Bill is not yet out of Committee. The second answer is that when there is only a limited time available, the Government have to choose which of the two Bills is the more important in the national interest.

Is it not because one Bill will bring in money and the other Bill will not?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that only nine supporters of the Bill turned up at the Committee to-day; and does he think that shows great keenness for the Bill?

Is the right hon. Gentleman also aware that the reason why the Committee have made so little progress with the Bill has been the opposition from hon. Members on his own side of the House?

And is it not the case that Members of the Committee were standing in the corridor outside the Committee room?

Is the Prime Minister aware that four of his principal supporters, who voted in favour of the Second Reading of the Bill, voted to wreck it within less than two minutes after the meeting of the Committee, and that they can be named?

May I ask for some further light on this matter? Is the Prime Minister aware that there were certain reasons why hon. Members on this side could not be present at the Committee this morning and that his Chief Whip was informed of those reasons; and is the right hon. Gentleman going to make semi-religious speeches in the country while he is—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"]

Contributory Pensions Act

asked the Minister of Health with regard to the application made by Henry Ledger, an unemployed miner residing at No. 16, Sarah Ann Street, Barnsley, for an old age pension at 65 years of age in January, 1928, what is the cause of the delay in the pension decision, having regard to the fact that all necessary information has been promptly supplied?

Mr. Ledger was notified on the 17th instant that he had been awarded a pension. Considerable investigation was necessary before it could be established that the insurance conditions were satisfied, for according to the records of his Approved Society, based on the stamped cards surrendered by him, the necessary number of contributions had not been paid in respect of him.

asked the Minister of Health what is the procedure under the Widows' and Orphans' Old Age Contributory Pensions Act with regard to putting in an appeal against an adverse decision; what is the time limit for putting in such an appeal; and whether, in exceptional cases, he is prepared to consider an extension of the time limit in order that no hardship may be caused by ignorance of the regulations on the part of the applicant?

As regards the first and second parts of the question, the rejection notice issued to an unsuccessful applicant for pension includes a paragraph, printed in italics, to the effect that, if he is dissatisfied with the decision, he may apply to the Registrar of Appeals, stating that he wishes his case to be submitted to a referee, and that such application must be made within four weeks of the date shown on the notice; as regards the third part, I am not aware of any case where hardship has been caused by insistence on the time limit, but if the hon. and gallant Member has any such case in mind and will forward particulars to me I will have it looked into.

Lunacy Acts (Administration.)

asked the Minister of Health what steps, if any, he is proposing to take to implement the administrative recommendations of the Royal Commission on Lunacy and Mental Disorder; and, in particular, whether he can see his way to do anything for those suffering from the effects of sleepy-sickness who are not suitable either for lunatic asylums or Poor Law institutions?

I have arranged that the administrative recommendations of this Commission are borne constantly in mind in the day to day administration of the Lunacy Acts, and are worked to so far as is practicable in present circumstances. The problem presented by the after-effects of encephalitis lethargica is under constant review; and it will no doubt be possible to deal with certain of these patients under the Mental Deficiency Act passed last year, which amended the definition of mental defect for this purpose.

Finance Bill

Betting Duty

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many betting licences have been suspended owing to evasions of paying tax?

The number of orders of disqualification for holding a bookmaker's certificate made by competent courts up to 30th June was 62.

Death Duties (Victory Bonds)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, having regard to the statement in the prospectus on the issue of Victory Bonds in 1919 that bonds would be accepted at their face value by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue as equivalent of cash in satisfaction of amounts due on account of Death Duties, provided that the bonds surrendered had formed part of the estate passing on the death of the deceased continuously from the date of the original subscription, he will state in what circumstances the Commissioners now refuse to accept bonds in satisfaction of Death Duties?

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether Victory Bonds are in all cases accepted at their face value when tendered in payment of Death Duties; and, if not, what exceptions are made?

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the fact that at the issue of Victory Bonds in 1919 a statement was made that the bonds of that issue would be accepted at their face value by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue in payment of Death Duties provided that the bonds surrendered should have formed part of the estate passing on the death of the deceased continuously from the date of the original subscription, he can state what are the reasons for altering these terms and refusing to accept a large number of these bonds?

The conditions under which Victory Bonds are accepted at face value (plus accrued interest) are set out in the Bank of England prospectus of 12th June, 1919, and in Clause 2 (1) of the Statutory Regulations made by the Treasury under Section 34 of the Finance Act, 1917, as amended by Section 42 of the Finance Act, 1918. The essential condition is that the bonds must have formed part of the estate passing on the death of the deceased for a period of not less than six months immediately preceding the date of death. If the hon. Members will furnish me with particulars of any case in which it seems to them that these bonds have been refused in satisfaction of death duties, although the necessary conditions have been complied with, I will have inquiry made into the matter.

National Debt Reduction Fund (Gifts)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Treasury ever imposes conditions before accepting gifts or contributions to the National Debt Reduction Fund?

The Treasury can, of course, decline gifts or contributions if made subject to conditions which are unacceptable; but no question of the kind has as yet arisen.

Has the right hon. Gentleman inquired into the circumstances surrounding the gift that Lord Inchcape made, and is he aware that Mrs. Hinchliffe alleges that she has certain moral claims on this money; and, if that is so, will he make her some grant from the Civil List?

Inter-Allied Debts

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the present capital value of the annuity payments due to this country under the funding agreements with Italy, Rumania, Portugal, Yugoslavia, and Greece, respectively; and the capital value of these debts before funding agreements were made?

I would refer the hon. Member to the texts of the various Funding agreements which have been presented to Parliament and which give the figures both of the original debts and of the annuity payments due under the Funding agreements in each case.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the capital sum at present owing to this country from France in respect of her War debt; the present capital value of the annuity payments proposed to be made under the Funding agreement now awaiting ratification; and the aggregate of such annuity payments under this agreement

The net War Debt of France to this country as at 12th July, 1926 (the date of the signature of the Funding Agreement), was £600,000,000; the present value as at the same date of the annuities payable under the Funding Agreement, calculated on the 5 per cent. tables, was £227,000,000; and the aggregate of the annuities is £799,500,000. Pending the ratification of the Funding Agreement the full interest accruing due on the original Debt has continued, as before, to be added to the capital and, in consequence, the net War Debt as on 30th June, 1928 (without allowing for the payments made on account of the Funding Agreement) had increased to £658,282,000.

Is the right hon. Gentleman taking any steps to secure the ratification of that agreement with the French Government?

We are, of course, anxious that ratification should be made as soon as possible in accordance with the understandings which were reached, but I would rather not make any statement as to the steps which we may or may not have thought it right to take.

Juvenile Employment (Guide)

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury if he is aware that the book issued by the Ministry of Labour as a guide to the employment of boys and girls may not be sold by the Stationery Office for less than 2s. per copy; and, in view of the interest taken in this publication, will he consider issuing this book at a price which will render possible a circulation that will bring the information to the knowledge of the parents of children who are being placed in industry and commerce?

The normal selling price, based on the cost of publication, would be 4s. 6d. A specially reduced price of 2s. was fixed, and 370 copies have already been sold although the book was only published last month. I do not consider the price of 2s. unreasonable, having regard to the matter contained in the book. Nor do I think that any further contribution at the expense of the general taxpayer should be made towards the cost of printing and circulation.

Will the hon. Gentleman consider whether this book could be divided into sections, as, owing to its value, it would be of great interest both to parents and children?

If the hon. Member means dividing it up into two sections, one for boys and one for girls, we have considered that, and we thought it would be better to have one single book, but, if he has another suggestion to make, I shall be glad, of course, to look into it.

Annuity Bonds (Stamp Duty)

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he is yet in a position to make any statement about the change of practice of the Board of Inland Revenue in assessing to Stamp Duty bonds for securing annuities or other periodical payments; and whether he can take steps to remove the inconvenience at present caused to the legal profession by the uncertainty prevailing as to the duty which will be demanded on such documents?

The statute law on this subject is obscure, and the judicial decisions not easy to apply with confidence to differing circumstances. I recognise that the resulting uncertainty as to the duty payable on particular documents must cause inconvenience to my hon. Friend's profession. But the only logical way of removing this uncertainty is to provide by Statute for all instruments securing payments of this sort to be charged on the annual value of the payments. This would need a Ways and Means Resolution, and cannot therefore be done this year, but, if there is general agreement on the subject, I will propose it next year. In the meantime I cannot ask the Board of Inland Revenue to abandon their present practice of treating all payments as annuities, at whatever intervals made, if their continuance is solely conditional on a life. I am advised that case law requires it. Subject to this, I suggest that representatives of the Law Society should confer with the Board in an endeavour to reach such agreement as to the treatment of particular types of instrument as will remove uncertainty as far as possible pending amending legislation.

Currency Notes

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury when the new £5 notes are to be introduced?

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether the new £5 notes are to be accepted as legal tender in this country whenever offered in payment?

No new issue of £5 notes is in contemplation. Bank of England notes for £5 are legal tender in England and Wales.

Coinage

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether it is the intention of his Department to introduce any further new coinage; and whether he will give the name of the individual responsible for the recent new designs and the method by which the specific designer was selected?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. In reply to the second part, I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given to the hon. and gallant Member for Tavistock (Major Kenyon-Slaney) on the 7th of June, of which I am sending him a copy.

I remember that reply, but would my hon. Friend, who is well known as a connoisseur of art, tell the House whether he approves of the design of the latest sixpence?

De gustibus non est disputandum; I could not venture to give an opinion on a matter of artistic taste.

British Celanese, Limited

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury under whose instructions the Government's representative on the board of British Celanese, Limited, voted in June, 1927, in favour of the retention on the board of certain directors who were charged with obstructing the development of the company's output?

The instructions to the Government director on the board of British Celanese, Limited, as to the course to be followed by him in June, 1927, were given by His Majesty's Government. I must not be taken as agreeing with the charge that the directors referred to in the hon. Member's question were obstructing the development of the company's output.

Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that only a few days after this action was taken, the Government sold half-a-million shares of £1, and that before very long the output of the company was doubled and also the capital value of the shares appreciated over 100 per cent.?

Is this director who was nominated by the Government allowed to interfere in the negotiations regarding labour conditions and wages?

It does not arise out of the question on the Paper, but, if the hon. Member wishes me to look into the matter and will put a question down, I will do so.

Agriculture

Tuberculosis Order

asked the Minister of Agriculture the number of cows affected by tuberculosis which have been slaughtered in 1926 and 1927 in pursuance of the Tuberculosis Order, 1925; and whether he is satisfied that the Order is fully operative?

The number of cows (including heifers) slaughtered under the provisions of the Tuberculosis Order, 1925, in 1926 and 1927 is 16,522 and 16,708 respectively. Local authorities have now completed their arrangements for carrying out the requirements of the Order and I am satisfied that the Order is properly executed.

Does the Minister not think that, in view of the increase, an increase in the staff of inspectors is needed?

T do not think so; the local authorities seem to be carrying out their duties satisfactorily.

Meat Imports (Restrictions)

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether, in view of the recent rise in the price of chilled meat, he will state to what cause he ascribes this increase; and whether he is now prepared to relax the restrictions upon the importation of meat from the Continent certified to be sound and free from disease.

The increase in price of chilled meat is, in my opinion, attributable mainly, if not entirely, to the rise in cattle prices in Argentina during recent months. The prohibition of the import of fresh meat from the Continent has afforded this country a very considerable measure of protection against foot-and-mouth disease, and I am not, therefore, prepared to consider withdrawing the prohibition while disease still prevails in Western Europe.

Can the right hon. Gentleman explain how it is possible that sound meat contains or conveys disease

Why then does the right hon. Gentleman refuse to allow sound meat to come here from the Continent?

Because we cannot secure that with sound meat diseased meat may not also arrive.

In consequence of your silly and foolish policy—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order, order!"].

Is it not a fact that the public have for months had meat at prices below the cost of production owing to the Argentine meat war, to the ruin of many farmers?

I think that the increase of prices in the Argentine have not been fully reflected by the increased prices at Smithfield.

Would the right hon. Gentleman be prepared to apply to the importation of sound meat from the Continent the same regulations that apply to the import of meat from South America?

No, because I think that there is a much greater danger of infection being brought in from the Continent. Certain forms of infection are prevented by the flux of time, and we must have more stringent precautions against the Continent than in the case of more distant supplies.

Is it not a fact that in consequence of your silly and foolish policy—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order, order"]—that there has been a rise in price—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order, order!"].

Foot-And-Mouth Disease

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether, following upon the suggestions of former Ministers of Agriculture, Lord Ernle and Lord Bledisloe, his Department will carry out extended experiments, as for instance, in the feeding of pigs upon remnants of chilled Argentine meat, so as to arrive at a more definite idea of the risk of infection of foot-and-mouth disease from the importation of this meat into this country?

I have already taken steps to bring this suggestion to the notice of the Foot-and-Mouth Disease Research Committee. I would, however, refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave to him on the 23rd April last.

Earl Haig Memorial

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether any decision has been reached with reference to the site for the equestrian statue of Earl Haig?

The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT
(Lieut.-Colonel Sir Vivian Henderson)

No decision has yet been reached.

Persia (Iraq-India Air Service)

asked the Secretary of State for Air whether he can report any progress in the preparations to extend the air-mail line between Cairo and Bagdad to India?

I am not yet in a position to add anything to the answer given to the hon. Member for Southwark, Central (Mr. Day) on 6th June, 1928.

Royal Air Force (Children's Allowances)

asked the Secretary of State for Air, seeing that authorities may retain children at school until the age of 15, if he will make provision for the payment of allowances until the age of 15 in the case of children at school, or to the end of the term immediately following the age of 15 if still at school?

The existing regulations provide for payment of allowances to be continued in respect of children if they are required to attend school up to the age of 15. If a child remains at school after attaining that age, the payment of the allowance may be continued until the end of the school term.

Electric Cable Standards

asked the Minister of Transport whether, in place of the large and unsightly poles made of foreign timber used for carrying electric cables, he will consider the employment of smaller and less conspicuous standards made of English iron?

The provisions as to minimum height of electric lines above ground and as to factors of safety, prescribed by the Overhead Line Regulations of the Electricity Commissioners, necessarily govern both the length and diameter of the poles or other supports which can be used. The regulations permit of the use of poles made of iron, steel or reinforced concrete as well as of wood, and in the generality of cases the choice of material to be used is a matter for the discretion of the Supply Authority proposing to erect overhead lines.

Is my right hon. and gallant Friend aware that these poles are destroying the beauty of the countryside in many places, and cannot he alter the regulations in regard to their height?

That is just what we have done; we have made regulations prescribing the height.

Has the right hon. Gentleman read the speech of the Prime Minister at Winchester as to the duty of all Englishmen to maintain the beauty of England?

I am doing all that I can in regard to the main lines of the Central Board, and they have a member of the Royal Academy to advise them as to the particular form of the poles and the colour in which they should be painted.

Has the right hon. Gentleman read the speech of the Leader of the Opposition at Denham in regard to the beauty of England?

Will the right hon. Gentleman take into consideration the views of the Air Ministry and private flying clubs with regard to the danger that these poles may present to aviation?

Unemployment

Transfer of Workers

asked the Minister of Labour if he is aware that Mr. Robert Clarkson, a colliery worker, was sent by the Durham Employment Exchange to Hull, where he was given to understand work was available for him; that on his arrival he found that no work of any description whatever was waiting for him; that he is now living in lodgings at 25s. a week and he only has his unemployment benefit to exist on; that the only mention of work is a possible vacancy at some future date in the tanyard at Beverley; and that already in Beverley there are a large number of unemployed workers who are awaiting an opportunity to start at this same tan-yard; and, in view of the amount of unemployment in Hull, if he will state why this city has been chosen to send men all the way from Durham, at great expense to the State, with little opportunity of obtaining employment when they get there?

I am making inquiries as to the facts of the case and will communicate with the hon. and gallant Member as soon as possible.

Will the right hon. Gentleman see that, while there is so much unemployment among unskilled men in Hull and other seaports, unemployed men are not sent there from long distances at great expense to the State to swell the number?

What is being done is in accordance with the general policy, which can be the subject of Debate. It is that in no district whatever can it be said that there is no unemployment at all. We send the men from places which are heavily hit to places which are not so heavily hit.

The right hon. Gentleman said that these men were being sent to districts where unemployment was comparatively good, but that does not apply to a port like Hull and to the East Coast of England.

Has this policy been adopted because of the recommendations of the Industrial Transference Board?

Benefit (Payment, Barnsley)

asked the Minister of Labour why cases dealt with by the Court of Referees and passed for payment have to wait four weeks and over before receiving their unemployment benefit in the Barnsley area?

If the hon. Member will give me particulars of specific cases I will have inquiry made. One class of case in which some delay is unavoidable is that in which there is an appeal from the Court of Referees to the Umpire.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman why the matter cannot be put right without asking for names and particulars of complainants? If names are given in confidence, will no advantage be taken against the complainants if future questions concerning them arise?

I can undertake that, if the hon. Member will furnish me with names, I will keep confidence with regard to them, and that no harm can happen; but it is impossible to deal with these cases, or to give reasons, or to say whether inquiry should be made, unless one has specific information.

Is not a good deal of it due to the fact that you are shorthanded at Kew?

May I take it for granted that if I give names privately to you no advantage will be taken of it hereafter by any person in the Department?

Certainly no advantage will be taken of it by any person connected with the Department.

When the new Court of Referees decides in favour of an applicant, is it fair for the insurance officer to refuse payment?

The possibility that there may be an appeal has always to be considered, but every care is taken that there shall be as little delay as possible.

South Africa (British Imports)

asked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department what percentage of the proportion of the South African Union's total import trade was received from Great Britain during the last four years?

Of the total value of the imports into the Union of South Africa (excluding bullion and coin) the proportion recorded as of United Kingdom origin was 51.5 per cent. in 1924; 49.9 per cent. in 1925; 48.9 per cent. in 1926; and 45.5 per cent. in 1927.

Can the right hon. Gentleman give us any information as to why the decrease in the proportion is so consistent?

Post Office (Contracts)

asked the Postmaster-General the amount of the contracts which have been placed by his Department during each of the past two years without public competition?

In 1926 £1,363,332, and in 1927 £561,518.

Does not the Noble Lord think that where there is so large a number of contracts it would be more economical if there were more healthy competition?

No, Sir. The hon. and gallant Member must bear in mind, in the first place, that the purchases for the Post Office amount to about £9,000,000 a year. The purchases referred to in the question fall, roughly, into two categories: First, telephone exchanges where an extension is required, and the practice of the Post Office is to have the extension done by the firm which originally erected the exchange, unless there are substantial reasons to the contrary. The purchases in the other category involve machinery a large proportion of which is covered by patents.

Has the Noble Lord read the Report of the Estimates Committee, in which he will find many instances besides those mentioned where he could have saved a great deal of money by putting out contracts to public competition?

Is the Noble Lord not aware that the cable companies are charging a higher price for their commodities to the Post Office than to Continental firms?

Those orders do not come within the category of this question. They are placed after the contract has been open to competition.

Dutch Elm Disease

asked the hon. Member for Monmouth, as repre- senting the Forestry Commissioners, whether any fresh cases of Dutch elm disease have been discovered this year; and, if so, in which counties they have occurred?

I have been asked to reply. Cases of Dutch elm disease have been discovered in the following counties, namely, Hertfordshire, Middlesex and Norfolk. Suspicious cases are also being investigated in Essex, Sussex and Worcestershire.

Is it not very probable that within three years' time there will be no elm trees left in Holland, and what is the Department going to do to prevent a similar state of affairs in this country?

The research officers of the Commission have the matter in hand, and every effort will be made to find some satisfactory means of dealing with this disease.

Steamship "Jervis Bay."

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is now in a position to make any statement with regard to the recent events on board the "Jervis Bay"?

The Board of Trade have now received the depositions made by the master, chief officer and other witnesses at Colombo, together with reports in the local Press of the proceedings in Court. These documents add nothing material to the information which has already been published in the Press in this country. I am satisfied that the case is not one calling for any action on the part of the Board of Trade.

Business of the House

Can the Prime Minister tell us what business he proposes to take next week?

Monday, Report stage of the Finance Bill.

Tuesday, Supply; Committee (17th Allotted Day), Ministry of Labour Vote.

Wednesday and Thursday, Report and Third Reading of the Companies Bill.

Friday, Third Reading of the Finance Bill; Second Reading of the Superannuation (Diplomatic Service) Bill.

On any day, if time permits, other Orders will be taken.

Regarding the business on Tuesday, which has been put down as the 17th Allotted Day. Perhaps I may be allowed, with your leave, Mr. Speaker, to put my question not exactly in query form? The House knows that there is a desire to have the Debate on unemployment a little bit wider than is possible on a Departmental Vote. At the same time, we have no intention of depriving the Government of their Allotted Day, and my question now is whether the Prime Minister will agree to an arrangement which has been suggested, by which he will get the Allotted Day and at the same time a Motion will be moved which will enable the Debate on unemployment to be wider than is possible on the Ministry of Labour Vote.

I shall be glad to arrange for the Debate to be as wide as possible.

Will the Prime Minister give further consideration to the question of finding time for the Dog Racing Bill, in view of the fact that so many local authorities and chief constables in the country have asked for this Bill?

I think that was dealt with during Question Time.

Motion made, and Question put,

"That other Government Business have precedence this day of the Business of Supply, and that the Proceedings on Government Business be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[ The Prime Minister. ]

The House divided: Ayes, 209; Noes, 122.

Division No. 304.]

AYES

[3.51 p.m.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Apsley, Lord

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Albery, Irving James

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)

Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Bellairs, Commander Cariyon

Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

Balniel, Lord

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Bennett, A. J.

Frece, Sir Walter de

Penny, Frederick George

Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Berry, Sir George

Ganzoni, Sir John

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Betterton, Henry B.

Gates, Percy

Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

Gilmour. Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Glyn, Major R. G. C.

Pilcher, G.

Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

Goff, Sir Park

Pownall, Sir Assheton

Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

Grant, Sir J. A.

Price, Major C. W. M.

Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B.

Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

Radford, E. A.

Brass, Captain W.

Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

Raine, Sir Walter

Brassey, Sir Leonard

Grotrian, H. Brent

Ramsden, E.

Briggs, J. Harold

Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

Reid, Capt, Cunningham (Warrington)

Briscoe, Richard George

Hammersley, S. S.

Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

Brittain, Sir Harry

Hanbury, C.

Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell

Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

Harland, A.

Ropner, Major L.

Brown, Brig. Gen. H. C.(Berks, Newb'y)

Harrison, G. J. C.

Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

Buchan, John

Hartington, Marquess of

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Buckingham, Sir H.

Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

Salmon, Major I.

Burman, J. B.

Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Burton, Colonel H. W.

Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

Sandeman, N. Stewart

Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian

Sanders, Sir Robert A.

Carver, Major W. H.

Henn, Sir Sydney H.

Sanderson, Sir Frank

Cautley, Sir Henry S.

Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

Sandon, Lord

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Hopkins, J. W. W.

Savory, S. S.

Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.)

Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)

Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

Shepperson, E. W.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A.(Birm., W.)

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

Hurd, Percy A.

Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

Hurst, Gerald B.

Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C)

Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

Iveagh, Countess of

Smithers, Waldron

Clarry, Reginald George

Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Cobb, Sir Cyril

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William

Sprot, Sir Alexander

Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George

Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.

Cohen, Major J. Brunel

King, Commodore Henry Douglas

Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

Colfox, Major Wm. Philip

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Cooper, A. Duff

Knox, Sir Alfred

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

Couper, J. B.

Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey

Tasker, R. Inigo.

Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

Looker, Herbert William

Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

Lumley, L. R.

Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell

Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

Tinne, J. A.

Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

MacIntyre, Ian

Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

Curzon, Captain Viscount

McLean, Major A.

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Dalkeith, Earl of

MacRobert, Alexander M.

Wallace, Captain D. E.

Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil)

Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel

Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)

Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

Makins, Brigadier-General E.

Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

Davies, Dr. Vernon

Malone, Major P. B.

Warrender, Sir Victor

Davison, Sir W. H, (Kensington, S.)

Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

Watts, Sir Thomas

Eden, Captain Anthony

Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

Wells, S R.

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Meller, R. J.

White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple

Elliot, Major Walter E.

Merriman, Sir F. Boyd

Williams- A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

Meyer, Sir Frank

Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

Wolmer, Viscount

Falle, Sir Bertram G.

Moore, Sir Newton J.

Wood, E.(Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)

Fanshawe, Captain G. D.

Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

Fermoy, Lord

Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

Fielden, E. B.

Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Finburgh, S.

Nicholson. Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.)

Yerburqh, Major Robert D. T.

Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

Forrest, W.

Nuttall, Ellis

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Foster, Sir Harry S.

Oman, Sir Charles William C.

Major Sir George Henness and

Fraser, Captain Ian

Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

Captain Margesson.

NOES.

Adamson, W. M. (Staff. Cannock)

Charleton, H. C.

Gosling, Harry

Ammon, Charles George

Cluse, W. S.

Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

Attlee, Clement Richard

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

Compton, Joseph

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Baker, Walter

Connolly, M.

Griffith, F. Kingsley

Barr, J.

Cove, W. G.

Groves, T.

Batey, Joseph

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Grundy, T. W.

Bondfield, Margaret

Dalton, Hugh

Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Hardie, George D.

Broad, F. A.

Dennison, R.

Harris, Percy A.

Bromfield, William

Dunnico, H.

Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

Brown, Ernest (Leith)

Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

Hayday, Arthur

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Gardner, J. P.

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

Buchanan, G.

Gibbins, Joseph

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

Gillett, George M.

Hirst, G. H.

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Owen, Major G.

Stephen, Campbell

Hore-Belisha, Leslie

Palin, John Henry

Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

Paling, W.

Sullivan, Joseph

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Sutton, J. E.

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

Ponsonby, Arthur

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Potts, John S.

Thurtle, Ernest

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Riley. Ben

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Kelly, W. T.

Roberts. Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich)

Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

Kennedy, T.

Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

Wedgwood, Rt. Hon Josiah

Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

Runciman, Hilda (Cornwall, St. Ives)

Wellock, Wilfred

Lawrence, Susan

Saklatvala, Shapurjl

Westwood, J.

Lee, F.

Scurr, John

Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

Longbottom, A. W.

Sexton, James

Whiteley, W.

MacDonald, Rt Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Wilkinson, Ellen C.

Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

Shiels, Dr. Drummond

Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

Shinwell, E.

Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)

March, S.

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Maxton, James

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

Mitchell, E, Rosslyn (Paisley)

Slesser, Sir Henry H.

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Montague, Frederick

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Morris, R. H.

Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Snell, Harry

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Murnin, H.

Snowden, Rt Hon. Philip

Mr. A. Barnes and Mr. Hayes.

Naylor, T. E.

Stamford, T. W.

New Member Sworn

Louis William Smith, esquire, for the Borough of Sheffield (Hallam Division).

Estimates

Second Report from the Select Committee, with Minutes of Evidence and Appendices, brought up, and read;

Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

Bills Reported

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 6) BILL,

Reported, without Amendment, from the Local Legislation Committee (Section A) [Provisional Orders confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.

Bill to be read the Third time Tomorrow.

BLACKPOOL IMPROVEMENT BILL [Lords],

Reported, with Amendments, from the Local Legislation Committee (Section A); Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

BOGNOR URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL [Lords],

Reported, with Amendments, from the Local Legislation Committee (Section A);, Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

Message from the Lords

That they have agreed to,—

Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Richmond) (Surrey) Bill, without Amendment.

Shropshire, Worcestershire, and Staffordshire Electric Power Bill, with Amendments.

Amendments to—

Oxford Extension Bill [ Lords ],

Manchester Ship Canal Bill [ Lords ],

Bournemouth Gas and Water Bill [ Lords ], without Amendment.

That they have agreed to Amendments to Administration of Justice Bill [ Lords ], without Amendment, and have made some consequential Amendments to the Bill.

ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE BILL [Lords]

Lords consequential Amendments to be considered upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 181.]

Orders of the Day

Racecourse Betting Bill

As amended ( in the Standing Committee ), further considered.

CLAUSE 3.—(Powers and Duties of Board.)

The first Amendment I select is that standing in the name of the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Morgan Jones).

I beg to move, in page 3, line 8, after the word "Act," to insert the words "with the approval of the local authority for the area."

Sub-section (1) will then read

etc. It will be apparent to everyone that the purpose of the Amendment is to raise the issue as to whether a local authority in the district where a racecourse may be approved shall or shall not have the power of determining whether the place chosen is a suitable area for the establishment of such racecourse. During recent years, we have had a deluge of legislation involving local authorities in new responsibilities, and, in view of that fact, it becomes our duty to safeguard, so far as we can, the local authorities against any undue expenditure in which they may be involved as a consequence of the passing of such legislation. There is another Bill concerned with the question of racing, namely, the Dog Racing Bill, and I believe that I am right in saying that a similar Amendment to the one I am moving has been moved and inserted in that Bill with almost complete unanimity, giving local authorities similar powers that we are seeking to include in this Bill. The general principle involved in my Amendment does not require very much argument. It will be clear to everybody that the establishment of a racecourse in an area may involve a local authority in very considerable expense. For instance, it will attract large crowds of people from all parts of the country, coming in every conceivable way, in every conceivable kind of vehicle, and the local authority will naturally be expected to provide the necessary road convenience, so as to make this traffic easily controllable. That will mean the expenditure of a considerable amount by the local authority. Secondly, the Racecourse Betting Control Board will have the power to

There is power given to an absentee hoard in this matter. This Control Board will, I presume, have its central office somewhere in London, but it will not be acquainted with the local conditions, and will not be susceptible to the arguments of people in the area as to interference with the amenities of that area. It seems to me that before a racecourse is established, the authority controlling the inhabited part of the area ought to have a word to say in the matter. Nor can we overlook the fact that the multiplication of these racecourses in many parts of the country, in close proximity to our big towns and cities, will interfere very substantially with the amenities of those various Places, and that therefore the people living in those areas have a right to say whether the establishment of a race- course shall take place when they apprehend, rightly or wrongly, that such establishment will involve, perhaps, a considerable drop in the value of the property they own in that area. For these amongst many other reasons, I have pleasure in submitting this Amendment.

I beg to second the Amendment.

This Amendment is one that was submitted to the Committee upstairs. I know the many arguments that were used against it. They were not effective from my point of view, because they seemed to imagine that now that you have Government Departments represented on the Board, there will be a sufficient guarantee that the public interest will be adequately represented. We are rather doubtful about that, because we feel, looking through the whole transactions in this connection, that the hon. and gallant Member for Abingdon (Major Glyn) was just a standard bearer of the original Bill, and had been exploited by persons having totally other views than he has on these matters. Originally, of course, we know that the Board of Control was to be confined to the Jockey Club representatives and the National Hunt Committee. They were to have sole charge of the granting of certificates, and also have full power to acquire, sell or hold land or other property, and the force of the Amendment, when first submitted, was certainly very great, and the urgency of it was quite unquestionable. Then you get the Government Departments coming along, and as the Government Departments are concerned in the division of the swag from these infernal machines that will be dotted about various racecourses, it does appear to me that they are suspect. Certainly one of the departments is a little more suspect than the others. There is a great certainty that this will bring in money, and, whether it be by acquiring further racecourses or not, there will be a willingness on the part of the Government Departments, as there is money in it.

It is well known that in many of the Colonies where this system prevails, the racecourses are set in the centre of populous areas, and not dotted all over the country as they are here, and it may well be that with the experience gained by the working of this Bill when it becomes an Act, it will be found quite unprofitable to work these expensive machines it a place where there is racing on only five or six days a year. They may make up their mind—this House will have no control over them—to acquire a centralised racecourse that will take in a group of counties, and all these owners of small racecourses dotted about will be able to hire the course for a week, in order that there shall be a continuity of race days throughout the year, and, consequently, a continuity of intake from the machines. It would be more preferable to have one or two machines centralised on a central racecourse, with facilities for letting out that racecourse to other owners of racecourses, who would have to scrap theirs, because they would not pay for the keep of the machines. The Board of Control might say, "We will open up three or four racecourses in different parts of the country." The first process would be to survey the land, and consider all that was necessary, and they could trespass upon the rights of urban or county council, or any local authority, saying, "We are acting under a perpetual seal. We have powers to acquire, hold and control. We will now set up this racecourse. We need consult nobody. We have powers from Parliament." The House cannot receive petitions from the local authorities in these, perhaps, otherwise salubrious suburban or rural areas. We have no grounds for urging a protest at all, and if this sort of thing begins, the State will at once become owners of racecourses, and may say, "We can now do without the representatives of the Jockey Club and Tattersalls. We can carry it on under our own Departments. We think it is such a good paying thing, we ought to nationalise it. They will look at it only from a revenue earning point of view.

I have noticed during these Debates a great searching for information on the part of responsible Ministers and Government supporters, wanting to know all the intricacies concerning racing which, they say, brings in considerable wealth to a group of individuals. It must have created some kind of green eye of a jealous god, and a desire to set up and to own racecourses of their own. The next step will be national sweepstakes. They will say, "We have tapped the right source of income. Here is a cure for all our ills. Unemployment will go. General taxation will be lessened, and the sum total of the revenue will come as a result of the gambling adventure upon which we as a State are embarking." You are getting well on the way, and time is short. The Home Secretary knows the consequences that will follow the final decision given here to-night. I do feel that there is a principle embodied in the suggestion that the local authorities ought to be consulted before a certificate is granted to an approved racecourse. If the right hon. Gentleman cannot satisfy us as far as existing racecourses are concerned, because they must already have had permission from the local authorities where they have encroached on land, he can say that he will undertake to find words, so that no new racecourse will be instituted under the provisions of the Bill without consultation with the local authorities. I think that would go a long way towards satisfying my hon. Friend who moved the Amendment.

If the effect of this Bill were merely to tidy up racing, and make the conduct of racing in this country more orderly and circumspect, I do not think that the local authorities would have any reason to wish to intervene in the matter of the approval of racecourses in their area and the erection of the totalisator. But I am convinced that, when this machine really gets going, it will, as I ventured to say on another Amendment yesterday, lead to an enormous increase in betting, and I am sure that, whatever may be the state of public opinion as now represented by the elected representatives of the people, when we have had a year or two's experience of the operation of this machine and this system we shall find that in many parts of the country there will be a strong popular opinion against it, and I think that the local authorities who represent the people in the different areas should have the right to say that, although these machines may have been approved by the Racecourse Betting Control Board, they do not want them to be operated in their area. On that principle I think they have a, perfect right to be consulted, and, for that reason, I support the Amendment.

I hope that the Home Secretary is going to favour us with some reply on this matter. I understood from his courteous gesture that he was proposing to speak as soon as the Amendment had been put, but" perhaps he will be good enough to give me a moment's attention if I draw an illustration from the case of my own constituency in Hull. There you have a great city of 300,000 inhabitants, which is growing every year. The surrounding country is very flat, and very suitable for establishing a racecourse. At present we have no horse-racing course anywhere near the city, though it is true that there are one or two within reach to which the sporting fraternity can go on those days in the year when steeplechasing, flat-racing and so on are in progress. We have recently, however, had a dog-racing track established, and it was very popular indeed when it was first established, though it is not so popular now as it was. The City Fathers, the religious interests, the guardians and others were among the numerous bodies throughout the country who requested that the Bill to give local authorities a right of veto in regard to dog-racing tracks should be approved by this House, and the right hon. Gentleman knows the feeling that was expressed on that matter. This Government, however, is not able to help us in that direction at all. I suppose we shall hear all about a better England and a more beautiful England the next time the Prime Minister speaks in the country, but he will not say anything about dog-racing.

The hon. Baronet knows perfectly well that, on the occasion of the Second Reading of the Dog Racing Bill, when the Debate was keenly watched by representatives of the local authorities and the social influences in the country, only 18 Members had the pluck to go into the Division Lobby against it; but I do not want to be led away by these interruptions, except to say that the less the hon. Baronet says about the vested interests in the Committee on that Bill the better.

The hon. and gallant Member appears to be making a personal attack. He speaks of vested interests. Does he accuse Members of the Committee, including myself, of taking certain action in the Committee for reasons of private interest? I think the hon. and gallant Member should either substantiate such a charge or withdraw it.

I have heard attacks of that kind made before, and I think it is better that they should not be made.

Of course, I do not accuse the hon. Baronet of acting for any reason of personal interest. He is the last person against whom I would make such an accusation. I am not myself a Member of the Committee, but I understand that the hon. Baronet supports the views of those who are interested in dog-racing courses, which are a vested interest.

I should not have strayed away from it but for the hon. Baronet's interruption. To return to the case of Hull, we are now going to be in exactly the same hopeless position with regard to a horse-racing course unless the right hon. Gentleman comes to our rescue. Suppose that the totalisator does away with rascality on the turf, to use the expression of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Suppose that it cleans up racing, as the hon. Baronet the Member for Barnstaple (Sir B. Peto) says, and makes it a nice, genteel, lady-like thing, like one of the Prime Minister's garden parties in Downing Street, where the Home Secretary can take his constituents and friends, or even his Evangelical supporters, without any fear that their ears will be assailed by raucous cries, and possibly questionable language. Even then, betting is going to be increased, there is going to be more revenue from it, and the companies manufacturing the machines will seek to increase the number of places where great cities can disgorge their inhabitants on Saturday afternoons to go to race meetings and bet with the totalisator.

Let us see what safeguards we have. We have at present the Control Board, the Chairman of which is appointed by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, and the Secretary of State for the Home Department, if this Government should, to the disaster of the country, continue in office, and if the right hon. Gentleman also should continue in office, will be a broken reed in this matter. We cannot trust him to look after the interests of the great mass of the people, which will, we hope, be voiced by their local authorities. We looked upon the right hon. Gentleman, at any rate, as being sound on this question, but he will be of no help to us; he has betrayed us, and we are lost. I myself have been until recently an admirer of the Home Secretary's attitude of rectitude on great moral issues, but he appoints the Chairman of this Control Board, and we have nothing to hope for in that direction; the angels would weep at the prospect.

The Secretary of State for Scotland will not come into it, because the Bill does not apply to Scotland. The Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries has a very great interest in the matter, because he wants money for the improvement of bloodstock, so we shall get no help from him. The Chancellor of the Exchequer wants his tontine, his rake-off, his percentage, and obviously he or his nominees or spokesmen will encourage the establishment of racecourses near great cities, where they can be easily reached by tramway and omnibus. Then we come to the representatives of the Jockey Club, the National Hunt Committee, the Racecourse Association, and so on. Their whole interest will be to establish more racecourses, even if their novelty only lasts a year and attracts a crowd temporarily. Summer Time is now in operation, and you can have meetings starting in the afternoon and going on in the evening, as is the case with dog racing to-day, and the people will be taken away from their allotments, their homes, and their harmless amusements in order to lose their wages so that the Chancellor of the Exchequer may get a small rake-off. That is what will happen unless the local authorities are given some right of veto.

That is the case for this Amendment, and I submit that it is a serious case which ought to be met. If the Home Secretary does not accept this Amendment to give to local authorities the right of veto over the establishment of new racecourses and the workjng of the totalisator machine, he will not be doing his duty. As His Majesty's Secretary of State for Home Affairs, he is responsible for good order and for the moral well-being of the people, and he cannot divest himself of that responsibility. The Control Board will be a broken reed where this side of the question is concerned, and the local authorities have a right to say whether they will have these new race-tracks within their boundaries. I hope, therefore, that hon. Members, in the interest of local government, will support us on this, which is really the biggest question that we have yet reached in connection with this Bill. This small safeguard, moreover, is democratic. If there should be an immense demand for this new amusement of betting with the totalisator, obviously the local authorities, who are elected by the local people, will accede to it: but if, in their wisdom, they think that the people as a whole really do not want it, they will not accede to it.

I would also point out that it is not only a question of money for the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if I may say so to my hon. Friend the Member for West Nottingham (Mr. Hayday). There is something more subtle and objectionable still. Horse-racing, especially near great industrial centres, may be a great distraction for the people, something to keep them amused and busy talking about horses and betting and losing their money, and preventing them from taking an interest in matters which might be uncomfortable for the right hon. Gentleman and his supporters. [ Interruption. ] Obviously, that is so. and I believe that it has something to do with the Government's support. of this Bill and their action in refusing support for the Bill of the hon. Member for the Scottish Universities (Mr. Buchan). They want something that will act as a distraction for the people, not for love of the people, but in order that the people may not think too much, because they know that thinking people will be the end of Toryism in England.

I must confess that I stand very humbly before the House after the castigation that the hon. and gallant Gentleman has given me. I am very sorry indeed that I have lost his good opinion, but I have the same opinion of him as I always had. I will not particularise further as to that opinion, but I must confess that I was rather intrigued by one suggestion that he made, namely, that the effect of the totalisator in Hull would be to clean up Hull. That seems to be not at all a bad idea, but where would the hon. and gallant Gentleman be then?

I should have a bigger majority than I have now, but I did not say anything about that.

I noticed that the hon. and gallant Gentleman took rather a long time to think out that retort—

I did not know what you were driving at. We have no racecourse at Hall.

No, but, I rather think that the hon. and gallant Gentleman described the totalisator as something for the purpose of cleaning up Hull among other places. He and his colleague who moved the Amendment have, however, completely misunderstood the purpose of the Bill. All that the Bill purports to do is to approve of the erection of the totalisator under certain conditions. The hon. Member who moved the Amendment, and put forward arguments in its favour, did so, if the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) will forgive me for saying so, in a serious speech, which he based on the additional responsibility that would be thrown on the local authority if a new racecourse were established. There would, he said, be large crowds, buildings would be erected within the boundary of the local authority, and extra police would be necessary on race days. But all this presupposes the establishment of a new course, and the hon. Gentleman has forgotten that yesterday this House passed an Amendment in order to prevent the statutory board from having anything to do with the establishment of new courses. Under the Amendment which was passed yesterday, the board is only allowed to purchase such land as may be reasonably required for the purpose of erecting a totalisator or the necessary buildings in connection with it—nothing more.

This makes no difference whatever to the powers which a local authority has to-day to prevent the establishment of a racecourse, or to insist upon regulations in regard to buildings on racecourses, to be consulted in regard to police, and to have their say in regard to the matter generally. Whatever powers the local authorities have to-day will be exactly the same after this Bill has been passed, in regard to any new racecourse that may be proposed, and the statutory board will have no power to establish any new racecourse. It was suggested that the board might have such a power, and, to prevent anything of the kind, I guarded against it by a carefully prepared Amendment, which, I think, met with the approval of hon. Members opposite.

Local authorities at present have no power to veto a new racecourse, and we are asking that they should have the power to veto the totalisator, which would probably mean the establishment of a new track.

Really, the hon. and gallant Gentleman is asking more than is in the Bill. Whatever powers there are to-day—and there are powers under the Public Health Act to deal with buildings, and there are powers to deal with questions of the police and of roads—to prevent or modify the establishment of a new racecourse will exist exactly the same after the Bill has passed. All the Clause proposes to do is to give the statutory Board power to say that, if a particular racecourse applies for it, there shall be a totalisator erected. The hon. and gallant Gentleman thinks this foolish decision of the House is going to inure to the benefit of his party on some future occasion when they go to the poll. I do not think it will affect the poll one iota, because although, as the House knows, I am not a betting man, I am convinced that the great mass of the people do bet, and will bet. The hon. Member for West Nottingham (Mr. Hayday) has admitted that over and over again. The object of the Bill is not to increase or diminish the amount of betting, but to allow a machine to be erected by a statutory Board on any particular racecourse, because, in the words of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the erection of that machine will go a long way to get rid of some of the most undesirable factors on our racecourses.

Many men who know far more about racing than I do have complained of the condition of some of our racecourses. It must be within the knowledge of the hon. and gallant Gentleman, who represents a great sporting county like Yorkshire, that there are things done in connection with betting on racecourses which are not what he, as a great moral reformer, would desire to see. I have seen the totalisator at work in India. There was much less noise and less rowdyism, though there were crowds equal to any I have seen on my rare visits to English racecourses. I saw the totalisator working perfectly well and with perfect decency and order. Other friends of mine who have been to racecourses on the Continent tell me that there is much less noise and rascality on some of the French courses where they have the totalisator than there is on some of our English courses.

Our object is to allow those who are of opinion that the totalisator has a good effect in cleansing the racecourse to put up a machine which is allowed in almost every other civilised country in the world. All the Clause does is to give the Board the power to impose conditions upon the establishment of the totalisator. When Parliament has come to the conclusion that the thing shall be tried, and has established a statutory Board for that purpose, a Board which will be composed of representatives of various Government Departments, with a chairman appointed by a Minister of the Crown, whom hon. Members opposite will not be backward in calling to account if they wish to do so, you cannot ask Parliament to give the go-by altogether to the work of its own statutory Board and say, even in this small matter of authorising the totalisator on existing courses: "We will not let the Board decide it at all. We will hand it over to the local authorities to decide." It is making the Board of no effect what. ever, and, accordingly, I hope the House will reject the Amendment.

I have not before taken any part in the Debates upon this Bill. I have been quite content to leave the opposition to my colleagues. But I think this is an Amendment of such importance, and I am so much disappointed with the Home Secretary's attitude, that I must express my regret. When I listened to my hon. Friend moving the Amendment, in what the Home Secretary quite rightly described as a very sensible speech, I thought: "I am sure the Home Secretary will accept such a sensible and reasonable Amendment, as this." The opposition to the Amendment which has been stated by the right hon. Gentleman is, I think, lamentably weak. I do not accuse him of quibbling, but he certainly was hardly fair in his statement of the position as it will be when the Bill comes into effect. He said the only thing the Bill empowers the Board to do is to license one of these machines upon a racecourse. He did not tell us this. The Board will be overwhelmingly controlled by men who are interested in the promotion of betting. We have been told repeatedly that one of the purposes of the Bill is to raise money for the improvement of horse-breeding. They are therefore interested in the returns from the patronage of this machine, and they must encourage the extension of facilities for horse racing. It may be true, as the Home Secretary says, that the Board itself has no power to acquire racecourses, but I think many of the people who are interested in horse breeding and racing who will be represented on the Board will have a right to acquire land and to set up new racecourses, and, remembering the motive they have in the extension of racing and betting, I think my hon. Friend's fear that there may be new racecourses opened in different parts of the country is very reasonable, and very well founded.

The Home Secretary says that the local authorities will still possess all the rights they have at present in regard to the passing of building plans and other regulations which they can make under the existing law. One of the answers that might be given to that contention is this. The local authorities have no power to prevent new racecourses being opened in their area. This Bill is extending horse racing. It is altering in a very considerable measure the betting laws of the country, and, therefore, it is a perfectly reasonable proposal that we should, at the same time that we are making these very considerable changes, ask that we shall go one step further and shall call in the exercise of public opinion with regard to this question, and empower the local authorities to say whether these racecourses shall be opened in districts which at present, fortunately, are free from them. The House of Commons a few weeks ago expressed its view upon the principle embodied in an Amendment that a local authority ought to have a right to prevent the construction of dog racing tracks within their area. I fail to see any difference between the right of the local authority to prohibit a racing track run over by dogs, and a racing track run over by horses.

The practically unanimous opinion of the House of Commons is that the right ought to be conferred upon local authorities in regard to dog racing, and therefore, the House surely, logically and consistently, cannot refuse local authorities the same power to veto permission for a new racecourse to be erected. There are very few Members of the House who think it would add to the respectability and the amenity of a neighbourhood for a racecourse to be introduced in places where no such thing exists at present. Just as the Home Secretary ought to be the custodian of the moral welfare of the people, so the local authorities are the custodians of the physical and moral wellbeing and welfare of the localities, and surely they ought to have a right to say whether such an evil as this of betting shall, under the patronage of the State, be introduced into their locality. I regret extremely the attitude the right hon. Gentleman has taken upon this question. I am surprised at it, and. the only explanation I can offer is that he is so completely under the domination of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in this matter that he dare not express his own conscientious views.

Before the Debate continues, I am bound to say, in case there should be an idea that this Amendment deals with the question of local authorities having power to prevent racecourses being established, that if that were so, it would be quite outside the scope of the Bill. Approval or non-approval of the construction of racecourses by local authorities is entirely outside the scope of the Bill.

This Clause gives power to the Board to grant certificates and to revoke them. The right hon. Gentleman appealed very strongly to us yesterday that the Board should not have the right given to it to interfere with those who own land in the neighbourhood of a racecourse, and the House agreed that the Board should not have such a power. Yet here is a power being given it that does not allow the local authority to interfere with the grant and revocation of licences. The local authority will have no power to express itself by voice or in any other way. The Board will have the power to deal with the district just as it likes in the matter of these certificates. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider the position he is putting to us. We agreed with him that they should not interfere with the owners of the land. Yet he agrees with the promoters of the Bill that the Central Board may grant and revoke certificates and that the local authority shall have no voice in it. If he were acting in good faith on this matter of the Board not being allowed to interfere with those who have rights, either in land or in any other way, he certainly would not put up opposition to the Amendment. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to have some regard to the opinions of those districts and those local authorities and allow them, at any rate, to have a voice in the matter before these certificates are issued or before they are revoked.

I want to detain the House for a few minutes on a very narrow point, which, I think, the right hon. Gentleman has not yet grasped. My right hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden) touched upon what is fundamental in the Amendment which we are now proposing. The Home Secretary, dealing with the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Morgan Jones), wanted us to narrow down the point and say that the question of the approval of a racecourse is purely and simply for the purpose of the establishment of totalisators. This is the point which he wishes to impress upon the House of Commons. I want, before I come to that very narrow point, however, to say that the wording of the Clause which we are now proposing to amend would lead anybody to believe that the Board of Control can grant a certificate in respect of a new racecourse that has already been established by a constituent part of the Board of Control. Take the National Hunt Committee or the Jockey Club. They can instigate a company, I take it, to establish a new racecourse. That, I think, is obvious to anyone. If they cannot do that, they can institute some other company to establish a racecourse anywhere. Once a new racecourse is established, all that they have to do is to ask for approval; and, provided that they can satisfy all the conditions, they can get a certificate from the Board of Control.

Let me put the contention that we want to urge upon the right hon. Gentleman. On the narrow point of granting the local authority the power to say whether a totalisator shall be established on a racecourse already in existence within their area we want to urge upon the House that this is a new issue upon which there is a great deal of feeling. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman himself will come up against that feeling later on. It stands to reason that in establishing a totalisator on an existing racecourse offence will be given to the susceptibilities of the churches, at any rate, in the locality concerned. I think that that goes without saying. The right hon. Gentleman stated that he had been to India and had seen totalisators at work. If he will read the Report of the Betting Committee which sat in 1923, he will find evidence—I am sure I am right in saying this, although I am speaking from memory—that, consequent upon the establishment of totalisators on racecourses in India, it became necessary to extend the space available for the people who wanted to bet because there was an increase of betting all round. I say, therefore, that the establishment of the totalisator alone means an increase in betting within a particular locality; and an increase in betting in a locality will offend the susceptibilities of the best people of all parties in the area.

I am now dealing entirely with the narrow issue. At the present time, meetings of the people in a locality are held in respect of cemeteries, electrical plant, industrial undertakings and all that sort of thing. As a matter of fact, in my own Division—I call attention to this, seeing that my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) has mentioned Hull—there has been a great outcry against the suggested establishment of a dog racing track. In fact, public opinion in that part of my Division has practically prevented the establishment of such a track. Public opinion has been powerful enough to break up the suggestion of the establishment of a dog racing track in that neighbourhood. If the public in a locality are able to influence a city council, town council, or county council as to whether industrial undertakings should be established in a particular district surely the same principle ought to apply in connection with a suggestion to establish totalisators. I am not speaking of any particular racecourse at all. Take, for instance, the City of Manchester, which the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary had the honour to represent some years ago, and where the business people had sufficient sense to see to it that he did not represent them later on.

It is history anyway. The town planning authorities of our cities have laid it down, at the instigation of the Minister of Health, that in certain parts you cannot establish industrial undertakings at all. For instance, in Gorton, which constituency my hon. Friend represents, you find all the industrial undertakings, but in Withington and in Didsbury, where I live, you cannot establish a factory under any circumstances. The local authority precludes that sort of thing being done under the town planning scheme. Therefore, I say, if a local authority has power to prevent the establishment of an industrial undertaking in a district that has been set apart for the purpose of cottage building, that same authority ought to have the same right to say that this machine, which my hon. Friend for West Nottingham (Mr. Hayday) called an infernal instrument—my language is not quite so strong as that, but if I spoke in Welsh I am afraid that it would be stronger—shall not be stablished in its midst.

I repeat that on this issue the right hon. Gentleman has not given an adequate reply to the House of Commons. Our Amendment is a good one. Its object is to place upon the local authority that has the responsibility of prosecuting people who break the law in respect of betting the power to prevent the introduction of this machine. I should like to tell the right hon. Gentleman that there is always a batch of cases in the Salford Police Court after every local race day. There are people prosecuted by the score for offences in connection with betting.

They are prosecuted by the local police authorities. The local authority pays 50 per cent. of the wages of the police: and, as far as I remember, the legal department of the town council of any borough conducts the prosecutions. Let me repeat, therefore, that the local authority which has the responsibility of initiating prosecutions in respect of offences against the gaming and betting laws ought to be the authority to say whether this machine should be established on a racecourse, whether the racecourse is a new one or not. I am sure that we ought to divide on this Amendment. Many hon. Members opposite have not got their hearts in this Bill. As a matter of fact, the right hon. Gentleman himself on this issue has a dual personality. If we could get his own personal mind and his instinct translated into language this afternoon, we should find him fighting with us: but, as has already been said, he has a loyalty to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and therefore, I suppose, we cannot expect him to accept our Amendment. In any case, we ought to divide and, if possible, carry this Amendment.

I want to support the Amendment. I regard it as one of the most important Amendments that has been put upon, the Order Paper during the time that this Bill has been before the House. The Amendment is not intended to take away from the Control Board the right of issuing licences, but it does seek to give the Board directions to consult local authorities before they give licences in the areas of the local authorities concerned. I think that all the arguments are in favour of the consideration by the local authorities of applications for new licences and the revocation of old licences. Sub-section (1) of this clause gives to the Board the right of issuing new licences and of revoking exisiting licences without any limit. There does not appear to be in the Bill from beginning to end any limitation of the number of licences, or of the number of racecourse licences, or of a limit to the general scheme of betting which is contained in the Bill. If there is to be no check or no control, and no consulation with local authorities in the areas where these machines and the race- courses are to be instituted, then there may be a very difficult time, in store for the Board of Control and for the Government, who are now responsible for this proposal. We have now reached a stage when the Government, for the first time in the history of this country, are to be responsible for setting up a monopoly for mechanical betting. Parliament is going to give that monopoly to a Board, and it is very important that we should not blind ourselves to the pitfalls to which we may lead the people and the pitfalls into which the Board itself may tumble.

I would like to know whether there is to be any limitation at all of the number of racing days. Apparently, there is to be an unlimited number of racecourses, an unlimited number of machines, and an unlimited number of racing days. Racing may be carried on every day in the week; and, possibly, may take place on Sundays. The Bill does not say that this shall not be so. Neither the Home Secretary nor the promoter of the Bill has enlightened us upon the point. The Home Secretary, in seeking powers for this Board, of which he is to be the senior partner, has not told the House whether races can be conducted on every day of the week. Is there anything in the Bill to say that racing shall not take place on Sundays? Is there anything in the Bill to give public opinion the right to disapprove of an excessive number of racing days or of racing on special days of the year? Will it not be possible for racing to take place on Good Friday, Whit-Sunday and on any of the holy Feast Days under conditions which will offend public taste? A monopoly is to be given to exploit human weaknesses by the aid of a machine, a wonderfully ingenious machine which will enable men to be exploited more readily than they have been exploited by previous methods. Instead of there being, say, 200 race- courses in the country, there may be 500 or 1,000 brought into operation during the next few years.

5.0 p.m.

The motive of the Government, and of the Home Secretary and the promoter of the Bill seems to be to sacrifice their moral ideals for one object, and that object is the exploitation of the public in order to provide money for the Chancellor of the Exchequer. As, I have said, there may be 365 racing days a year. Small profits and quick returns, that is the object of the Bill, as I understand it. The only restriction that we find in the Bill is that betting shall be carried on by means of the totalisator on approved racecourses where racing exclusively by horses is being carried on. Beyond that limitation, it appears that nothing can be done. The Home Secretary must have in his mind some kind of prospect for the scheme in which he is to be a partner, but he has not told the House what it is. Once the scheme has been established, it will be the easiest thing in the world to add dog racing or any other kind of racing. Who are the Board? The composition of the Board is described in Clause 2, which says that,

But we are conferring very important powers on the Board. The Clause goes on:

"The other members of the Board shall be appointed as follows:

By the Secretary of State for the Home Department

1

By the Secretary of State for Scot-land

1

By the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries

1

By the Chancellor of the Exchequer

1

By the Jockey Club

3

By the National Hunt Committee

2

By the Racecourse Association, Limited

1

By the Committee of Tattersalls

1."

I am so innocent that. I do not know. My education has been sadly neglected. I have occupied my time in digging coal and sending it to the surface from a thousand feet below the earth, and I have never known all the mysteries of high life as seen on the racecourses of the country. The object of this Board is to organise betting on a large scale and to collect revenue for the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I can see that the Secretary of State for the Home Department will be torn between two official motives. One motive will be to safeguard the morals of the people of the country and the other motive will be to assist the Chancellor of the Exchequer to get as much money as possible. Then I can see the Secretary of State for Scotland encouraging his own countrymen in the reckless use of their money.

The hon. Member is now trifling with the House. He must keep at least to the matters dealt with in the Clause under discussion. He cannot go back to what has already been disposed of.

May I ask whether it is degrading and out of order to make any reference to the Secretary of State for Scotland?

I believe that the Home Secretary, before you came into the Chair, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, did lead us to suppose that he could be trusted to see that the morals of the people were not corrupted in any way.

I shall say no more about individual Members of the Government. I am solicitous for the Home Secretary's reputation, but I fear that no amount of persuasion can prevent the Government going on with this Bill. Here the Government are committed to a Board which has for its object the organisation of betting. Who is to look after the public? It is not the Chancellor of the Exchequer's job. It is not the Home Secretary's job. We ask in our Amendment that the local authorities should have the powers of veto given to them. A rich landowner can prevent the formation of a racecourse in the neighbourhood of his house, but a local authority, solicitous for the morals of its young and of its citizens generally, has no protection at all. The best assistance can be given, not by giving more powers to the Government, but by removing the power from Whitehall as the central authority and giving it to the local authority when a new licence is being sought or the extension of an old one is demanded. The Government are flouting public opinion. Ask the public of the country whether they are behind this Bill. If there were a referendum to-morrow I contend that an overwhelming majority would be opposed to the Bill. Having got power to insult public opinion so far, the Government have the further insolence to say that the local authorities, which are responsible for the health and general welfare of their citizens, shall not he consulted when licences are being given.

I rise for the purpose of making a suggestion which may shorten discussion. I could not vote for the Amendment in the wide form in which it is framed. The way I look at the matter is this: The House in its wisdom has approved of the totalisator, and that decision I am bound to accept, though I do not like it. That being so, I do not think that I can vote for giving a local authority the power to veto the totalisator upon existing racecourses. The House no doubt has in its mind the existing racecourses in the country, many of which have been in operation for many years. That I regard as being decided by the House. But would the Home Secretary accept an Amendment if it were so worded as to be limited to future racecourses? For that, I respectfully say, there is a very strong case indeed. As for as existing racecourses go, I am afraid that we must accept what the House has already passed, but in the case of future racecourses, surely the arguments that induced the House to pass a certain Bill the other day, giving a veto to the local authority in the case of future dog-racing tracks, ought to apply in this matter also. It is a matter in which the local authority, for many reasons beyond the existence of a totalisator, may very well be given power. If the Mover of the Amendment could see his way to alter the Amendment so that it applied only to future racecourses, I should hope that the Home Secretary would accept it.

I naturally listened with interest to the speech of the last speaker, and I am bound to realise that he was speaking with some amount of sympathy with his own constituency and the district around. I want, however, to keep to the position that at present confronts us. After all, the hon. and gallant Member for Ripon (Major Hills) knows as well as I do that the object of the original promoters of the Bill was to secure the element of horse racing and an increase of betting facilities. It is their expectation that by the erection of the totalisator more people will find this thing so clothed by reputable processes that they will come and take part in betting and horse racing. Indeed what this Bill has done is to go back entirely on the stated intentions of those who passed the Gaming Act of 1853.

I quite agree that this Bill will increase betting, and for that reason, among others, I oppose it, but I think that that is a matter for Parliament to decide and not for the local authorities. It is a very important decision, and we ought to take the responsibility for it here in the case of existing racecourses, and I do not think it would be either right or fair to throw that responsibility on to the local authorities.

There is much to be said, of course, for that point of view, but, all the same, local authorities will bear the burden of the mistakes that Parliament makes, and the hon. and gallant Member admits the right of a local authority to interfere with regard to future racecourses. The preamble of the old Gaming Act is worth quoting again:

"Whereas a kind of gaming has of late sprung up, tending to the injury and demoralisation of improvident persons by the opening of places called Betting Houses…"

We have now got rid of that. What we say now, and what local authorities will have to consider in the immediate future is,

"Whereas a kind of gaming will shortly spring up tending to the injury and demoralisation of improvident persons by the erection of totalisators and instruments of a like nature…"

Surely, with that confronting local authorities, there is a case at least for them to say whether they will have totalisators or not. I do not want the plea of the last speaker to be too much stressed in this discussion. I want the Home Secretary even now to reconsider the issue that we are putting before him. I should have thought, in view of the special situation created to-day by the Prime Minister at Question Time, when he showed us that we have run away as a House, or at least the Government had run away from its responsibilities to the local authorities in another matter in which betting is involved, that some attempt might have been made on this occasion, when there is Parliamentary time, to deal with the matter. The excuse in connection with the other question was that there was not Parliamentary time. Now, we can deal with the matter, and I submit to the Home Secretary that he is basely deserting his duty. He knows well that he cannot control all that this new Board will be doing. He will be in a minority upon the Board. Even with his four colleagues he will be out-voted by the other seven representatives from the Jockey Club, the National Hunt Committee, the Racecourse Association and the gentleman from Tattersall's. There is a special need where the localities know the consequences and will know to their cost the procedure that we are now adopting, that they should be consulted and should have the right to a veto if need be. The Home Secretary gave no valid reason why this Amendment should not be supported and I certainly shall press it.

I think there is almost a case for the Amendment as it stands, and there is certainly a very strong case for the proposal put forward by the hon. and gallant Member for Ripon (Major Hills), that where a new racecourse is being opened in a new area the local authorities should have a voice in the matter. So far as the original Amendment is concerned, it would be well to point out that the Central Control Board is a centralised authority composed of Government officials on the one side and members of the centralised racing authorities on the other, and they cannot possibly have very much knowledge of what is going on in the various localities throughout the country nor can they know what is the feeling there. This Bill deals with Scotland and Wales as well as this country and I say frankly that in connection with a Bill which can extend over so wide an area and in respect of which we are setting up a Central Board, that Board ought to have some better and closer means than are provided in the Bill for getting into touch with the local authorities. An hon. Member opposite asked a question, which has not been answered, as to whether or not there can be horse racing on Sunday. Perhaps the hon. and learned Member for Hull. South-West (Mr. Grotrian) can say whether or not there can be horse racing on Sunday. I noticed that when a new Clause was on the Paper with the object of prohibiting horse racing on Sunday, it got no further, and that makes the position rather suspicious.

I do not feel that I can vote for the Amendment as it stands, but, remembering the wide differences of feeling in different localities, the great area to be covered and the differing conditions: some people will be in favour of racing and others will be against racing, some

will think that racing is the most cheerful form of engaging human time and others will think just the reverse, it would be well if the Board, in regard to some of the features of which some of us are very doubtful, should have definite power to deal direct with the local authorities, and that where a new racecourse may be set up, say, in Scotland or in Wales or in some other area, that the local authority concerned should have the power of saying: "This racecourse will be objectionable; it will be bad for the amenities and character of the district." If we could arrive at some compromise on this question which would enable the suggestion of the hon. Member for Ripon to be incorporated in the Bill, we should do something to strengthen the Bill.

I should like to say a few words from the point of view of the local authorities. We have had it stated in speech after speech that the local authorities ought to be consulted and ought to have a voice on this question. In spite of all the arguments in favour of that point of view we have received no representations from local authorities urging that they should be armed with these powers. In so far as I have had the good fortune to be able to gather the views of local authorities, I think it may be justly said that they neither seek nor desire to have this duty imposed upon them. Therefore, I hope that the Amendment will be defeated.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 124; Noes, 219.

Division No. 305]

AYES

[5.22 p.m.

Adamson. W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Charleton, H. C.

Grenfell. D. R. (Glamorgan)

Ammon, Charles George

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Griffith, F. Kingsley

Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bliston)

Compton, Joseph

Groves, T.

Baker, Walter

Connolly, M

Grundy, T. W.

Barnes, A.

Cove, W. G.

Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

Barr, J.

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Hardie, George D.

Batey, Joseph

Dalton, Hugh

Harris, Percy A.

Bondfield, Margaret

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Dennison, R.

Hayday, Arthur

Briant, Frank

Dunnico, H

Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)

Broad, F. A.

Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Bromfield, William

Forrest, W.

Hirst, G. H.

Brown, Ernest (Leith)

Gardner, J. P.

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Gillett, George M.

Hore-Bellsha, Leslie

Buchanan, G.

Gosling, Harry

Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

Burton, Colonel H. W.

Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and colne)

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

stamford, T. W.

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

ponsonby, Arthur

stephen, Campbell

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

potts, John S.

stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

Kelly, W. T.

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

Kennedy, T.

Riley, Ben

Sullivan, J.

Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich)

sutton, J. E.

Lawrence, Susan

Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

Lee, F.

Runciman, Hilda (Cornwall, St. Ives)

Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

Longbottom, A. W.

Saklatvala, Shapurji

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

Lowth, T.

Salter, Dr. Alfred

Thurtle, Ernest

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavor)

Scrymgeour, E.

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P

MacLaren, Andrew

Scurr, John

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

Sexton, James

Wellock, Wilfred

March, S.

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Westwood, J.

Maxton, James

Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)

Shiels, Dr. Drummond

Wilkinson, Ellen C.

Montague, Frederick

Shinwell, E

Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

Morris, R. H.

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Williams, David (Swansea, East)

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)

Murnin, H.

Sitch, Charles H.

Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

Naylor, T. E.

Slesser, Sir Henry H.

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Owen, Major G.

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Wright, W.

Palin, John Henry

Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Snell, Harry

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Mr. Hayes and Mr. Whiteley.

NOES.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles

Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

Albery, Irving James

Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis

Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Hurd, Percy A.

Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

Dalkeith, Earl of

Hurst, Gerald B.

Apsley, Lord

Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford)

Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)

Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)

Bainiel, Lord

Davies, Dr. Vernon

Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Dawson, Sir Philip

Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

Eden, Captain Anthony

King, Commodore Henry Douglas

Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

Edmondson Major A. J.

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon

Elliot, Major Walter E.

Knox, Sir Alfred

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

Lamb, J. Q.

Bennett, A. J.

Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

Berry, Sir George

Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey

Betterton, Henry B.

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

Looker, Herbert William

Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

Falle. Sir Bertram G.

Lougher, Lewis

Blundell, F. N.

Fermoy, Lord

Lumley, L. R.

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Fielden, E. B.

MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

Macintyre, Ian

Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

Foster, Sir Harry S.

McLean, Major A.

Brass, Captain W.

Fraser, Captain Ian

MacRobert, Alexander M.

Brassey, Sir Leonard

Frece, Sir Walter de

Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham)

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Fremantle, Lt. Col. Francis E.

Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel.

Brittain, Sir Harry

Galbraith, J. F. W.

Makins, Brigadier-General E.

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I

Ganzoni, Sir John

Malone, Major P. B.

Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

Gilmour Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd, Hexham)

Glyn, Major R. G. C.

Margesson, Captain D.

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)

Goff, Sir Park

Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

Buckingham, Sir H.

Gower, Sir Robert

Merriman, Sir F. Boyd

Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan

Grace, John

Meyer, Sir Frank

Burman, J. B.

Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Grant, Sir J. A.

Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

Carver, Major W. H.

Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

Cautley, Sir Henry S.

Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Grotrian, H. Brent

Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt, R.(Prtsmth. S.)

Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E.(Bristol, N.)

Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

Hall, Capt. W. D' A. (Brecon & Rad.)

Moore, Sir Newton J.

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Hamilton, Sir George

Neville, Sir Reginald J.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir. J. A. (Birm., W.)

Hanbury, C.

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

Christie, J. A.

Harland, A.

Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

Hartingto, Marquess of

Nuttall, Ellis

Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George

Headiam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

Cohen, Major J. Brunel

Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

Pennefather, Sir John

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian

Penny, Frederick George

Cooper, A. Duff

Henn, Sir Sydney H.

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Cope, Major Sir William

Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Couper, J. B

Hills, Major John Walter

Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

Courtauld, Major J. S.

Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

Philipson, Mabel

Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

Hopkins, J. W. W.

Pilditch, Sir Philip

Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)

Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)

Pownall, Sir Assheton

Price, Major C. W. M.

Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

Raine, Sir Walter

Slaney, Major P. Kenyon

Warrender, Sir Victor

Rentoul, G. S.

Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)

Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

smith. R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

Watts, Sir Thomas

Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

Smithers, Waldron

Wells, S. R.

Roberts E. H. G. (Flint)

Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple-

Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell

Sprot, Sir Alexander

Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

Ropner, Major L.

Stanley, Lieut-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.

Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Salmon, Major I.

Streatfeild, Captain S. R

Wolmer, Viscount

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

Sandeman, N. Stewart

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

Wood, Sir S. Hill-(High Peak)

Sanders, Sir Robert A.

Tasker, R. Inigo.

Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

Sanderson, Sir Frank

Thom, Lt. Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Sandon, Lord

Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

Savery, S. S.

Tinne, J. A.

Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Shepperson, E. W.

Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

Major the Marquess of Titchfield and Captain Wallace.

I beg to move, in page 3, line 12, at the end, to insert the words:

It is all very well for hon. Members opposite to say that they have the people of the country behind them and that everything that is done in the name of the Control Board. We on this side have different views in regard to public opinion on this matter and on the composition of the Control Board. If the Board assisted by the Government is going to place these machines on racecourses in order to propagate poverty, we on this side, who stand for the abolition of poverty, accept the challenge and will put it to the test at the earliest opportunity.

I beg to second the Amendment.

It is all the more necessary in consequence of the decision which has just been come to by the House. It may be said: What fears can you have that any person or any racecourse authority will be aggrieved with a Board which is to be constituted as the Control Board, and, if the Board is at variance on the question of granting or revoking a licence, what purpose can be served by appealing to a Department which is already represented on that body? It may appear rather paradoxical, but, in fact, it is not so. The granting of a certificate will never come up for consideration until an application is made by a racecourse company, and when that application is made, I judge that the Board will make inquiries as to the suitability of the racecourse and the nature of the management. It may be that near by there is another course to which they have already granted a certificate. They may consider that it would not be right to grant a certificate to another racecourse too near the one which has already been granted a certificate. In a case like that, if the certificate is refused, what redress is open to the aggrieved party, assuming that the certificate was refused, not on the ground that the company was badly conducted, or on the ground of unsuitability, but entirely on the ground that it would not be wise to have two racecourses with a certificate too near to each other?

In such a case as that it seems to me that the Government should have the right to step in. I do not think it is asking too much that an aggrieved person, either by the non-granting of a certificate or the revocation of a certificate which has been granted, shall have an appeal to the Secretary of State. That is only fair and reasonable. Under this Bill, the Home Office will have the right to review all the transactions of the Control Board. It can withhold or give its assent to any Regulations which may be made. It is the overriding body. To that extent it is detached, and I think, therefore, that any aggrieved party should have the right of appeal to the Secretary of State. On a previous occasion the Home Secretary rather led us to believe that all our fears were groundless, that the Board would do the right thing, that it was restricted in its operation, but then he proceeded in his most beguiling manner to say that what he had witnessed at Calcutta and elsewhere gave him no grounds for fear.

It seems to me that the Home Secretary knows rather more about the intricacies of this matter than he would have us believe. Behind that innocence, which we all enjoy, I really think that he does know the full details and intentions of this Bill. He desires to do the right thing, but when he finds himself in a difficulty like this he has such a beguiling way about him that it is really impossible for us to resist the feeling that he is lulling us into a state of serene security. I think he knows everything about this Bill. No doubt the Under-Secretary has kept him informed of our little discussions upstairs, which were very fruitful. I believe the Under-Secretary is prepared to admit that a protection such as is proposed by the Amendment is very valuable to the aggrieved person and I hope he is prepared to give them the right of appeal. The greatest criminal in the land has the right of appeal. British justice offers full opportunities to every person to appeal, and I do not think that the decisions of this Board of Control should be like the law of the Medes and Persians.

It may be that a certain racecourse or company has fallen out with the Jockey Club or the members of the National Hunt Committee, and it may be that those who represent the majority on the Board of Control will say, "Very well, we will make it very hot for you at the first opportunity; we will see that your certificate is revoked." I cannot imagine a Government Department lending itself to that, and as the representatives of the Government are in a minority on the Board of Control I think there should be a right of appeal to the Home Secretary. As long as they are not guilty of any misconduct they should have the right to continue. Indeed, the right of appeal should be extended to every person associated with the sport, or profession or industry, of racing against any decision which they may consider unfair on the part of the Board of Control. I hope I have been successful in these few simple sentences in persuading the Under-Secretary to accept the Amendment. I am not without hope that the benign influence of the Home Secretary has descended in all its fulness on the Under-Secretary, and that he is going to give this right of appeal.

The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT
(Lieut.-Colonel Sir Vivian Henderson)

I feel sure that if my right hon. Friend had had the pleasure of listening to the speech of the hon. Member for Nottingham West (Mr. Hayday) and had any doubt in his mind as to whether he would or would not accept this Amendment, he would have immediately given way to the eloquence of the hon. Member. As a matter of fact, there is good reason why he cannot accept it. We are setting up a statutory body, one of the principal objects of which is to enable them to issue and revoke certificates for racecourses. There is no object in setting up a statutory body of this kind if we are to allow an appeal from their decisions to the Secretary of State.

The Secretary of State, on subjects of this kind, cannot possibly have the firsthand knowledge which is available to the Control Board. He cannot have the knowledge which the statutory body possesses, and which will actuate them in assenting to or revoking licences. To place on the Home Secretary, as the Minister responsible, a responsibility of this kind, one which he really could not adequately carry out, because he would not have the information at his disposal, is not a practical proposal at all. Apart from that, there are certain objections to enlarging the principle by which Government Departments are made courts of appeal and, therefore, in spite of what the hon. Member has said, I hope the Amendment will not be pressed because it is not a practical proposal.

Amendment negatived.

I beg to move, in page 3, line 14, after the word "that," to insert the words

"persons under the age of seventeen years shall be prohibited from entering any enclosed portion of the racecourse where betting transactions are carried on and that."

Our reason for allowing the previous Amendment to be negatived without a Division was because we wanted to come to this very important issue on the Bill. The intention of this Amendment is to prevent persons under the age of 17 from entering any enclosed portion of a racecourse; and our avowed object is to prevent such young persons having any opportunity of betting in the enclosure. Clause 4 contains a provision which, in part, tallies with the Amendment. It is as follows:

"If any person has on any approved racecourse any betting transaction with a person under the age of seventeen years, whether by means of a totalisator or not, and whether he or the person under the age of seventeen is acting on his own behalf or on behalf of another person, he shall be liable, on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding £50 or to imprisonment."

Thus, there would appear to be a very severe penalty upon any person under 17 who bets, and upon any person who bets with a person who is under 17; but Clause 4 does not preclude a young person under 17 from entering an enclosure where there is betting. If it be right to declare in an Act of Parliament that there should be a penalty on a person under 17 for betting and that there should be a penalty upon any person betting with such young persons, is it not logical to say that the better course would be to exclude the young person altogether from the possibility of betting in the enclosure, by excluding him from the enclosure itself?

I should like to be informed upon that point. The hon. and gallant Member is no doubt familiar with it because it was discussed in committee. The wording of the Clause which I have already read is a little involved; but I was left definitely with the impression that it was not legal for a young person to make a bet. But that does not affect my point. It may be the case that there is no penalty on the young person under.17.

That is as the Bill stand now. The proposal which I made in Committee was that it should be an offence for a person under 17 to bet, but the Amendment was not accepted.

I was confused on that issue, and I accept the view that there is no penalty in respect of the person under 17.

Not on the person under 17. There is a penalty on the person who receives a bet from one under 17. There is no penalty on the person who makes the bet.

That point having been cleared up, it does not disturb in the least my proposal. Though there is no penalty on the person under 17, there is a penalty on the person who takes a bet from a person under 17. In order, therefore, to avoid any possibility of an offence at all under Clause 4, young persons under 17 ought to be excluded altogether from the enclosure. I make no apology for having always regarded gambling as a vice. Somebody has very aptly said:

"Gambling is the child of avarice and the parent of prodigality."

and someone else has still more aptly said, in words which suit my case very well:

"Games of chance are traps to catch the schoolboy novice and the gaping country squire, who begins with a guinea and ends with a mortgage."

If that be true in respect of gaming by adults, how much more true is it in respect of young persons under 17? I am sure there is no Member of any party who would be willing to see a young person under 17 gambling on a racecourse or elsewhere. A goodly number of young persons under 17 who would be gambling, if it were permitted, would be doing so with other people's money. I believe that young persons should be kept in school until they have matriculated, and they cannot do that very well under 17 years of age.

I admit that Lancashire is a very intelligent county, but that does not affect my point. The only concession we have had from the Home Office on this Bill has been the insertion of the age of 17 instead of 16.

The insertion in Clause 4 of the age of 17, as far as I know, was a concession made in the Committee, because the age of 16 is almost universally used in connection with certain offences by young persons. We had the concession from the Home Office that the age of 17 should be inserted in Clause 4 and that, I agree, was an important one from my point of view, although in fact it only makes a very wicked Bill a little more tolerable. Where the totalisator has been established in other countries there has always been an age limit, and in some cases there is a provision to the effect that no person under 21 is allowed into the enclosure where the totalisator is in operation. My hon. Friend the Member for Motherwell (Mr. Barr) has some detailed information upon that point; but whatever other countries may do in this connection, I hold that gaming is an evil thing; and if adults are to be allowed to make fools of themselves in this way we ought not to give the opportunity to young persons under 17 to indulge in that vice. I was a member of a Committee which dealt with the question of young offenders, and I was convinced that, in regard to many matters, the age which is fixed in connection with the term "young person" ought to be raised in law. I proposed to raise it above 18 in respect of one very important matter, namely, capital punishment. In that connection I would have raised it to 21; but we unanimously decided in regard to practically all the other offences considered that the age should be 17. In the Children Act at the moment the age is 16.

6.0 p.m.

Let me come to one argument which I think is the most powerful of all in connection with my proposal. An Act was passed in 1923 amending the law relating to the sale of intoxicating liquors to persons between the ages of 14 and 18; and under that Act, with a small proviso, no young person under 18 can be supplied with intoxicating liquor in a public house. If Parliament sees fit to lay it down, that a young person under 18 is not to be supplied with intoxicating drinks, the same good principle ought to apply to opportunities for betting. For these reasons I think the House ought to accept the Amendment. There is no question here of loyalty to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I do not think, in fact, that there are many young persons under 17 who bet. Hon Members have confessed from all sides of the House that they have been betting from time to time. It would be very interesting to learn how many of them betted when they were in secondary or public schools. I doubt if some of them had any money with which to bet, and I think that the average young person under 17 has no money with which to bet at all.

We have a very strong case for this Amendment. I have heard hon. Members say that a young person under 17 can put a shilling on a horse on the totalisator and that that will not make him bankrupt; but I have been told that the totalisator will not accept anything under 2s., and consequently that argument falls to the ground. Gambling is an evil that ought to be suppressed. The establishment of the totalisator will make gambling easier and will extend it on all hands: and I want above all things, whatever our opinion may be as to opportunities of betting by adults, that our young people under 17 years of age, at any rate, shall not have the opportunity of following a game which the Betting Committee of 1923 describe as nothing but a "mug's game."

I beg to second the Amendment.

When the Select Committee on the Betting Duty considered this question, they certainly came to the conclusion, without definitely recommending the totalisator, that while it had certain merits it was at the same time a dangerous machine and that it was very apt to induce many people, especially young people and women, to resort to betting. Therefore, the great increase that they predicted might come from the establishment of the totalisator, would come very largely from young people, who would be attracted by the novelty of the Machine and by the prospect of making something out of their first bet. I should like to fortify myself, if I may, with a few quotations, from Australia and other countries where the totalisator is in operation, and where there is decided testimony that, especially among young people, it has extended betting operations. I give, for example, the chairman of the committee of the Australian Jockey Club, who said:

I am not sure that I altogether agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Westhoughton (Mr. R. Davies), who moved the Amendment, in respect of there being no betting among young boys at school or among young messenger boys and the like. I would not weary the House, but I have a summary here of interesting Court proceedings taken from the Edinburgh police court, the Glasgow juvenile court, the Patrick police court, and the Rothesay sheriff court. Here are cases of a boy of 17 brought up for loitering for the purpose of betting and of taking in bets: a boy of 15 in the police court of Patrick for loitering for the purpose of betting; in the juvenile court in Glasgow a boy of 14 who had 64 charges of theft, described as due to the gambling habit which he had incurred and a boy of 17 at Rothesay, who had stolen over £10, and it was explained that he had begun with bets of 2s. and gone on up to 25s., and had thus brought himself into these evil courses. I should like to say this, that the Select Committee on the Betting Duty were averse to the multiplication of these machines. They said that they must be specially guarded, as indeed the attempt is made to guard them in this Bill by restricting them to approved courses, and they said:

I want now to give one or two illustrations only of the age limits that are imposed in certain of our Colonies in this connection. A Totalisator Bill was introduced in the State of Victoria and was defeated, I think, in the month of December last. It was defeated largely because of the evidence that was forthcoming from other States as to the effect that the totalisator had had, particularly on young people, and the Bill contained a Clause to the effect that any person under the age of 21 years who wagered should be guilty of an offence. It came out that in another Act, the Police Offences Act of 1915 embodying the provisions of the Lotteries, Gaming, and Betting Act of 1906, in Victoria not only lads under 21 were not allowed to bet, but women were not allowed to bet at all under the general law. I do not suppose in these days of equal franchise that we can bring in an Amendment of that kind, but certainly I would emphasise that in several States—South Australia, for example, and other States of Australia—the age limit is fixed at 21. In Natal the age is 18; and in the Transvaal, 21. As my hon. Friend has said, the age in regard to the sale of liquor to young people in the Act of 1923 is 18; and in Scotland when that legislation began in 1903 in regard to the liquor question, it was fixed at 16, but we have advanced since 1903, and the age is now 17. Some of us would have liked to make another advance and put in a higher figure, but we were willing to concentrate for this purpose on 17, and if possible I think a later Amendment would give the age of 18.

The reason why we do not wish the young people to go into the enclosure at all is this: It was argued by the promoters that the arrangement of the totalisator was such that the people attending to the machine could not judge the particular age of an individual in the multitude that would be passing; and, therefore, it becomes important to secure that they do not enter these enclosures at all. It is a better way of checking the age, and it does not bring them into close contact with the evil habit. The hon. and gallant Member representing the Home Office pointed out that he had brought in Clause 4. I do not wish to indulge in any recrimination at all, but I would recall to the House that in the Bill as it was first brought before this House, and as it received a Second Reading, there was no safeguard of this kind at all; when the scheme of the Jockey Club was submitted, there was still no safeguard; and when the Chancellor of the Exchequer's Amendments were put in there was still no safeguard. The idea then was as to the improvement of racecourses, the improvement of horse breeding, and the interests of the Exchequer, but I am glad that, though under some pressure, the Government at length conceded that the moral issue in regard to, our young people was even more important than any of these other concerns. We wish now simply to stiffen up and to strengthen their proposal by warding off the young people from the immediate danger.

In the city of Glasgow, where most of my public life has been spent, we have once a week in all the public schools instruction in manners and morals, and one of the subjects in the syllabus is the warning of young people against the evils of betting and gambling. It was from a syllabus in the West Riding of Yorkshire that we first got that syllabus, which we have adopted in Glasgow. It is a splendid, comprehensive syllabus, and once a week the young people are warned against the evils of strong drink and of gambling. Now surely it is a waste of public money and a false idea of education to give such instruction and then to launch these young people out in the front of these machines with the temptation to indulge forthwith in gambling, so that in the frenzy of passion they will be swept off their feet and will easily forget the lessons they have learned. I feel that we are true to our ideas of education and our expenditure on it and to what we are doing for the yong people, and we also emphasise the moral aspect of this great question, which does not seem to appeal at all to hon. Members opposite. I want in my last word to remind the party opposite of what one of their greatest leaders said. Benjamin Disraeli, Lord Beaconsfield, said that the turf—and I believe it will be true even after they have done their cleansing of the turf—was a vast engine of national demoralisation. It is because we desire, if possible, to keep the young people from that contamination and that degradation, which one of the greatest leaders of the party opposite so strikingly deplored, that I second this Amendment.

During the Committee stage of this Bill we had considerable discussion on this question, and the Amendment is to a large extent an alternative proposal to the one contained in Clause 4. Both proposals are aimed at the same thing, that is, the prohibition, as far as possible, of juvenile betting. The Committee decided that Clause 4 provided a better way of dealing with the question than the proposal which is now before the House. If this proposal were accepted, the result, as far as I am advised, would be a serious number of anomalies. If we insert these words here, there is in the Clause no penalty which could be inflicted on anybody if people under the age of 17 were allowed to go to any part of the racecourse contrary to the wording of the Amendment. In Clause 4 suitable penalties are provided, and are made to fall upon particular people, but in this Amendment no provision of that kind has been made. These words, therefore, would be merely a pious resolution which would have practically no effect at all.

I do not say that you are, but I say that that is another way of dealing with it. As the hon. Member said, there would be some difficulty in deciding whether a person is under or over 17 when going to a totalisator, and the higher you put the age, the more difficult it is to decide. There would also be a difficulty if people were coming in large numbers to an enclosure; the argument is as strong in one case as the other. There is another very important point. In certain cases, as I understand, an enclosed portion of the racecourse is, practically speaking, the whole of the racecourse. Therefore, by the wording of this Amendment, anybody under the age of 17 would be prohibited from going on to the racecourse at all. That would exclude any jockey who is under 17, any Post Office messenger under 17, and any boy under 17 employed in the kitchen or refreshment department of the racecourse. This, of course, is not the intention of the movers of the Amend- ment. Members of the Committee will remember that I pointed out that fact upstairs, and yet no steps have been taken by hon. Members responsible for the Amendment in any way to get out of that difficulty. It is the most serious difficulty, because I am certain that they do not want to exclude a jockey who happens to be taking part in a race. This is really a piece of class legislation, because, while the Amendment would enable people who can afford to go into an enclosure to protect their young, those who cannot afford to go into an enclosure, but have to go to another part of the racecourse where they can bet, will not be protected by the wording of the Amendment. On the other hand, by the provisions in Clause 4 we have made practical proposals to try to prohibit and discourage juvenile betting, and I maintain that the provisions we have made in that Clause are really of a much more practical nature than the proposal contained in this Amendment.

I should not have risen but that the hon. and gallant Gentleman said that we discussed this question in Committee and that no members of the Committee had taken any steps to put down an Amendment which would not be subject to all the objections which he put forward against it.

:I beg the hon. and gallant Gentleman's pardon; I thought he spoke of members of the Committee. I quite recognise that the wording of this Amendment is open to a good many objections. I should have preferred to have moved the Amendment which I have on the Paper, and which I will read to the House, in case the Government may think that, as it is not subject to any of the objections they have raised, they may take steps to insert it in the Bill. I want to insert a new Sub-section to provide that, in granting these certificates, the Racecourse Control Board:

"Shall make it a condition of the grant of a certificate of approval of any racecourse that the owners of the racecourse shall provide enclosures in which the totalisators and the bookmakers are to operate and put up notices clearly stating that persons under the age of eighteen are not permitted to enter such enclosures and take all reasonable precautions to prevent the entrance of persons under the age of eighteen to such enclosures."

That would not entirely prevent it, but all members of the Committee who were in opposition to this Bill feel that it would do a very desirable thing, and make it perfectly clear that, in the enclosures where a totalisator was operated, and where the bookmakers were to have spaces provided for them, it would not be proper for children under 18 to enter; and it would prevent a great many going in, if not all. It would, at any rate, act as a filter, and on the principle of prevention being better than cure, it would obviate a great many occasions for prosecutions for carrying on betting transactions under Clause 4. It is all very well to say that there are other parts of the racecourse not enclosed, where children of parents who cannot afford the high entrance charge of the special enclosures can make bets with a bookmaker. That may be quite true, but we are setting up new machines for betting. We are setting up machinery under the aegis of the Government for carrying on betting in a manner, and, I think, on a scale, in which it has never been carried on in this country hitherto. That justifies us in asking the Government to make some special conditions, and it would be very unfortunate if in this country we were behind other countries in this respect. I would point out to the Home Secretary that there is one place in Europe where gambling is carried on as a business, on a scale unequalled elsewhere; that is Monte Carlo, and they take precisely the precaution which we are asking under this Amendment. Outside where the gambling takes place they ask the age, and see that they ascertain the age, of every person who applies for admission, and you do not get in unless you can prove that you are 21 years of age. If that is good for Monte Carlo, it is a pity that the Government should set up gambling machines in this country, and take no precautions to see that the young people of the country do not get access to them.

I agree that under Clause 4 the arrangements to be made in regard to persons under 17 years of age are made precise, and that the penalties are fully dealt with, and that Clause 4 is a good way of dealing with the issue which we are discussing. I am glad to say that, because it was my Amendment originally in Committee which was put into the Amendment which the Home Office was instrumental in getting accepted. Having, however, admitted all that, I still urge that if it were made clear to the Board of Control that Parliament intends that persons under 17 years of age shall be prohibited from entering these enclosures, even although we have not been able to make precise penalties as we have done in the case of Clause 4, that in itself will have sufficient influence on the Board, and through the Board, in the granting of licences, on the racecourse authorities, to see that this provision is carried out.

I speak as an old teacher. The hon. Member for Motherwell (Mr. Barr) has reminded us of an excellent provision in the curriculum of moral lessons, which are given in Glasgow and the West Riding of Yorkshire, regarding the evils of betting. To-day it has become more and more the case in the schools, and not merely in the specialised lessons on betting and moral questions, that all processes of gain and winning prizes and "touching the chance" are reprehended. It has even become the practice in the last few years to wipe out of the schools the prizes that were formerly given to the children. Children are made to feel in the schools that if gain is to be secured, it should be secured for all in common, and while teachers are struggling to get those wider social ideas accepted through our educational machine, they see the State conniving at a system whereby the children can have before them an example of the totalisator run by the State and the agents of the State. All this is a negation of what we are trying to do through our educational machines in other directions. I am glad to see the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for the English Universities (Sir A. Hopkinson) in the House. I begged him on Committee, and in his absence I begged other Members of Universities, to come and add their plea to ours for safeguarding the children of the country. It is a special duty that lies upon the hon. and learned Gentleman as representative of a uni- versity, and I hope that if he cannot speak on our behalf now, he will find it possible to go into the Lobby with us.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 123; Noes, 202.

Division No. 306.]

AYES.

[6.31 p.m.

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

Scurr, John

Ammon, Charles George

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Sexton, James

Attlee, Clement Richard

Hirst, G. H.

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

Hudson, J. H.(Huddersfield)

Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

Baker, Walter

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Shiels, Dr. Drummond

Barr, J.

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Shinwell, E.

Batey, Joseph

Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Bondfield, Margaret

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Simon, Rt. Hon. St John

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Calthness)

Briant, Frank

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Sitch, Charles H.

Broad, F. A.

Kelly, W. T.

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Bromfield, William

Kennedy, T.

Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)

Brown, Ernest (Leith)

Kirkwood, D.

Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Lawrence, Susan

Snell, Harry

Buchanan, G.

Lawson, John James

Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

Burton, Colonel H. W.

Lee, F.

Stamford, T. W.

Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

Livingstone, A. M.

Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

Charleton, H. C.

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)

Strauss, E. A.

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

MacLaren, Andrew

Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

Compton, Joseph

Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

Sullivan, Joseph

Connolly, M.

March, S.

Sutton, J. E.

Cove, W. G.

Mitchell, E. Rosalyn (Paisley)

Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Montague, Frederick

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Morris, R. H.

Thurtle, Ernest

Dennison, R.

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

Duncan, C.

Murnin, H.

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Dunnico, H.

Naylor, T. E.

Wellock, Wilfred

Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer)

Oliver, George Harold

Westwood, J.

Forrest, W.

Owen, Major G.

Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

Gardner, J. P.

Palin, John Henry

Whiteley, W.

Gillett, George M

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

Gosling, Harry

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

Williams, David (Swansea, East)

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Ponsonby, Arthur

Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Potts. John S.

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Griffith, F. Kingsley

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Windsor, Walter

Groves, T.

Riley, Ben

Wright, W.

Grundy, T. W.

Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich)

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

Robinson, W. C. (Yorks. W. R., Elland)

Hardie, George D.

Runciman, Hilda (Cornwall, St. Ives)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

Salter, Dr. Alfred

Mr. Hayes and Mr. A. Barnes.

Hayday, Arthur

Scrymgeour, E.

NOES.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Eden, Captain Anthony

Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.)

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

Elliot, Major Walter E.

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

Cecil, Rt Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston. s-M.)

Athoil, Duchess of

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A (Birm., W.)

Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

Balniel, Lord

Christie, J. A.

Falle, Sir Bertram G.

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

Fermoy, Lord

Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Fielden, E. B.

Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George

Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon

Cohen, Major J. Brunel

Foster, Sir Harry S.

Berry, Sir George

Colfox, Major William Phillips

Fraser, Captain Ian

Betterton, Henry B.

Cooper, A. Duff

Frece, Sir Walter de

Blundell, F. N.

Cope, Major Sir William

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Cooper, J. B.

Galbraith, J. F. W.

Brassey, Sir Leonard

Courtauld, Major J. S.

Ganzonl, Sir John

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Courthope. Colonel Sir G. L.

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islingtn. N.)

Glyn, Major R. G. C.

Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)

Goff Sir Park

Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

Gower, Sir Robert

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)

Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

Grace, John

Buckingham, Sir H.

Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

Bullock, Captain M.

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Grant, Sir J. A.

Burgoyne. Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan

Dalkeith, Earl of

Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

Burman, J. B.

Davidson, Major-General Sir. J. H.

Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

Davies, Dr. Vernon

Grotrian, H. Brent

Carver, Major W. H.

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

Cassels, J. D.

Dawson, Sir Phillip

Hall. Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Hamilton, Sir George

Margesson, Captain D.

Slaney, Major P. Kenyon

Hammersley, S. S.

Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)

Hanbury, C.

Mason, Colonel Glyn K.

Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Merriman, Sir F. Boyd

Smithers, Waldron

Harland, A.

Milne,. J. S. Wardlaw-

Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

Hartington, Marquess of

Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

Sprot, Sir Alexander

Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.

Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

Moore, Sir Newton J.

Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Henn, Sir Sydney H.

Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

Streatfeild, Captain S. R.

Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

Neville, Sir Reginald J.

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Hilton, Cecil

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

Tasker, R. Inigo.

Hopkins, J. W. W.

Nuttall, Ellis

Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)

O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell,

Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis

Penny, Frederick George

Tinne, J. A.

Hurd, Percy A.

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

Hurst, Gerald B.

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Iveagh, Countess of

Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

Wallace, Captain D. E.

Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

Pilditch, Sir Philip

Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Pownall, Sir Assheton

Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)

Price, Major C. W. M.

Watts, Sir Thomas

Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William

Raine, Sir Walter

Wells, S. R.

Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

Rentoul, G. S.

White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple-

Kindersley, Major Guy M.

Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

King, Commodore Henry Douglas

Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Knox, Sir Alfred

Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)

Withers, John James

Lamb, J. Q.

Rodd. Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell

Wolmer, Viscount

Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)

Looker, Herbert William

Russell, Alexander West- (Tynemouth)

Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

Lougher, Lewis

Rye, F. G.

Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

Samuel. A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

MacIntyre, Ian

Sandeman, N. Stewart

Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

McLean, Major A.

Sanders, Sir Robert A.

MacRobert, Alexander M.

Sanderson. Sir Frank

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham)

Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

Captain Bowyer and Sir Victor Warrender.

Makins, Brigadier-General E.

Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

Malone, Major P. B.

Shepperson, E. W.

I beg to move, in page 3, line 15, to leave out the word "owners," and to insert instead thereof the words "persons having the management."

This is a drafting Amendment which was promised in Committee. The owners of racecourses often have nothing to do with their management, and therefore it is desirable to substitute these words for the words in the Bill.

Amendment agreed to.

I beg to move, in page 3, to leave out from the word "bookmaker," in line 20 to the end of paragraph (2), and to insert instead thereof the words:

"and to any assistant accompanying him, for admission to an enclosure on the racecourse for the purpose of the bookmaker's business shall, in the case of a bookmaker, not exceed ten times the amount, and in the case of an assistant not exceed the amount of the highest charge made to members of the public for admission to the enclosure."

I am now proposing an Amendment which I think will make the Bill fairer from the point of view of hon. Members opposite. From Amendments which they have put down, I understand they would like to reduce the amount which it is suggested should be paid by the book-'maker. I need hardly say that I have no hostility to bookmakers, and, if the hon. Member for West Nottingham (Mr. Hayday), who has interested himself so much in bookmakers in the course of this Bill, or the bookmakers themselves, would like to make it five times instead of ten, I should have no objection to that. Would the hon. Member like that?

Then I will move the Amendment as it stands.

Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill," put, and negatived.

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."

I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, in line 3, to leave out the words " ten times " and to insert instead thereof the word "twice."

While I appreciate very much the offer of the right hon. Gentleman, there is another point which I wish briefly to put to him, and I would say, in passing, that I wish to dispel any idea which may have arisen from the remark of the right hon. Gentleman that I am here representing bookmakers. I know that was not intended by him. It is because many of the Amendments are concerned with the bookmaking fraternity that I have done my best to see that some equality was meted out to them in comparison with the totalisator. A good deal could be said upon this Amendment, but as we desire to get to the Third Reading at a reasonable time, I propose to cut short my remarks. I do, however, desire to call the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to the relation of this charge to the amount which is to be deducted from the money passing through the totalisator. The only purpose I have is to see that there should be no unfair apportionment of expenses between the two competing systems on a racecourse. If the charge to the human bookmaker is made too high, it is only a matter of time when the totalisator will put out the bookmakers, although we have been told by the promoters of the Bill that this is not their intention. I understand—and here again I would say that it is only because I have a cutting from a newspaper—that some of the charges are as high as £3. If the new charge is to be ten times that amount it will mean that a bookmaker will have to pay £30 for occupying his place. ( Interruption. ) That £30 would be in contrast with the limited amount which is to be stopped from the totalisator, and it becomes quite clear that if the, charge to the one is unduly high as compared with the charge to the other there cannot be a. fair deal. The Jockey Club themselves, in the report of their own inquiry, say: than to secure equality as between the several classes. The Chancellor of the Exchequer now proposes to reduce the Betting Duty to 1 per cent., but to double the charge for the licence. The promoters of the Bill said on Second Reading that they proposed to deduct 8 per cent. from the money received through the totalisator. We have put down an Amendment to make it 4 per cent. These points are related so much the one to the other that I do not know how it is possible to arrive at an accurate basis, but we think that 10 times is quite out of all proportion. If we make it five times it will mean £15. If it is dis-covered later on that the amount of 8 per cent. suggested to be deducted from the totalisator is too much, and that it would be fairer to make it 4 per cent., 6 per cent. or some other limiting amount, it seems to me that this percentage ought to be readjusted so that it does not form an unfair proportion of the expenses as against the deductions made through the mechanical machine.

It was thought that doubling the fee would be sufficient to recuperate the racecourse authorities, and would cover the extra charges involved by the erection of a, place. I understand that the intention is to grade the charge, leaving the maximum amount as the higher charge. If it is felt on inquiry that 5 per cent. should be the ultimate deduction, I do not think we should ask for anything more than that. All we want is to secure that a fair proportion of the expenses will be charged by the deduction.

I would like to point out that during the Committee stage the supporters of the Bill came down to five as an agreed sum. I think if we can come to a compromise and accept a figure of five we shall put the proposal on a much fairer basis. From my own particular point of view, I urge that the Home Secretary should bring in some Amendment that will insert "five."

When this particular point was under discussion upstairs, the promoters of the Bill made a suggestion that six should be the figure, and it was refused. The whole case has been very well stated by the hon. Member for West Nottingham (Mr. Hayday). There is no intention whatever of victimising bookmakers, but it must be admitted that the bookmakers are now getting certain advantages by being allowed to operate in a recognised place, and it is only right that they should pay when they go to those places. We do not want to give away more than is necessary, and we believe that the offer which we made was reasonable, and ought to be the maximum. The Home Secretary has made a proposal which, I think, will shorten the discussion, and I shall have much pleasure in meeting the views of hon. Members opposite on this point. If the Government are anxious that the figure should be "five," the promoters of the Bill will not offer any objection.

I think I may take it that the House will now agree to insert the word "five." The hon. and gallant Member for Abingdon (Major Glyn) said that under the Bill the bookmakers would get certain advantages by being allowed to operate in a recognised place. If it is the intention to give the bookmaker the use of a place in which he can carry on betting and to which the public can resort, all I can say is that the Bill does not say so.

The figure mentioned of for admission to the enclosure. There are certain pitches in every enclosure which are better than others, and therefore it is impossible to fix a flat rate in each enclosure for a particular pitch. All you can do is to charge a definite increased figure for admission to certain pitches. The bookmaker who operates at Ascot, and who has a pitch close to the rails where people pass to the Royal enclosure, can do business with those in the Royal enclosure, and he has a better pitch than a bookmaker at the other end of the course where he cannot be reached by people in the Royal enclosure. Consequently it is, impossible to lay down that every place in an enclosure is of equal value. The only fair way is to fix the amount to be paid on entering the enclosure itself, and that is what the Bill does.

It is desirable that the House should remember that what we are dealing with is not a charge going to be made by the Control Board, and the proceeds of this charge are not going to the totalisator fund which is quite a separate matter. According to this Amendment the persons having the management of the racecourse will have control of these charges, and this will be a prior charge upon the bookmakers. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said that he was going to raise the licence charge from £10 to £20, and that he was going to do it as soon as he could. The right hon. Gentleman also told us that next year he was going to consider a system of doing away with the betting tax by adopting a graded licence. If we are going to allow a high charge to be made by those who have control of the racecourse, when the Chancellor of the Exchequer gets there he will find that somebody else has milked the cow.

We seem to be talking rather airily about five times being a reasonable compromise. We are now being offered five as something more reasonable than ten. Does the Home Secretary know what the extent of a maximum charge of ten times means? I have had some figures taken out very carefully by people most likely to know what is the attendance of bookmakers at Epsom, Goodwood and Doncaster, and I find that the bookmakers now pay for admission to those enclosures sums varying from £3,000 at Ascot to £3,700 at Epsom, £3,592 at Goodwood, and £3,693 at Doncaster. These figures do not count the summer meetings at Epsom, and they are the figures for four days' racing at Ascot, four at Goodwood, four at Epsom and eight at Doncaster. The total amount paid by the bookmakers in the cases I have quoted for admission to the enclosures, without including what is paid for their assistants, is £14,000 a year. Does the Home Secretary think that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will be able to get more out of the bookmakers when the racecourse authorities are proposing to charge them £140,000 a year? In that case there will not be much left for the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Even if the proposal to insert "five times" is accepted, it means that the bookmakers will be paying £70,000 a year for permission to carry on their business at the four racecourses which I have mentioned. At Ascot, the estimated number of bookmakers attending is 450, at Epsom 300, and at Goodwood 300, and that seems to be about the average number of bookmakers who operate in Tattersall's enclosures at all the principal race meetings.

7.0 p.m.

All I am anxious about is that this Bill should be made reasonably fair. I under- stand that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is going to leave these matters to the Betting Control Board without any controlling power by the Government. In those circumstances I want to consider what is going to happen to the right hon. Gentleman's future proposal of a graded licence duty upon which he is going to rely as his main source of revenue from betting. We are told that the totalisator is to be used in order to improve the amenities of racecourses. It is also provided that, out of the proceeds of the totalisator, the Board may spend sums of money upon making improvements to the racecourses. I want to ask if it is really necessary to provide for a huge sum of this kind being paid by the book-makers to the racecourse authorities when they are not asked to do anything with the money except provide the "places" on the racecourses. The hon. and gallant Member for Abingdon (Major Glyn) suggested that the bookmakers would get certain advantages by being allowed to operate in a recognised place. I would point out that the principle of making a very high charge for permission to do business on the racecourse is one which will eliminate competition, and it will be very unfair to the small bookmaker who cannot afford to be one of the privileged few who will be permitted to go into the enclosures. It is very unfair also to the men who have been on the whole paying the Chancellor's tax, that is the book makers on the course. It is the starting-price bookmakers who have been evading it. I cannot imagine a more suicidal policy than to cut the throats of these people to prevent them from getting their living, and to give the racecourse authorities the power to bleed them to such an extent that there will be nothing left for the Chancellor of the Exchequer. For that reason, I think that £70,000 a year from these four racecourses alone is altogether an unreasonable amount and double the present £14,000, which the bookmakers pay, is the most to which the Home Secretary should give his countenance. He has thrown his aegis over this proposal by incorporating it in his own Amendment. I ask him to take the view that the Amendment, which the hon. Member for West Nottingham (Mr. Hayday) has moved, and which I should have moved if I had had the opportunity, which fixes the limit at twice the ordinary charge to the public, is ample, considering that this is only the beginning of a proposal to extract money from the bookmaker for carrying on his business. You cannot milk a cow from both sides at once, and it is very unwise to allow somebody to intervene between the Chancellor and his prize.

As I understand the position, when the Bill left the Committee, the arrangement sanctioned by the Committee was that the racecourse authorities were to provide, where a totalisator was installed, accommodation on the racecourse for the bookmakers, either in buildings or in some other place, and, having provided that accommodation, they were to be allowed to charge the bookmakers a fee for entering the particular enclosure, a fee which was not to exceed 10 times the amount paid by the ordinary public. The bookmaker, I have always understood, makes money by going to these racecourses, and the ordinary public generally lose. The bookmaker generally goes there for the purpose of carrying on his business, and for that purpose he is perfectly willing to pay certain fees to the racecourse authority. That was passed by the Committee and, when the point was raised here, I announced that I thought that 10 times was too high and that five times would be the right figure. I can only say that that is based on such information as I have been able to get. Certainly £5 seems a big jump for the £2 enclosure, but not for the half-crown enclosure. The bookmaker would pay only 12s. 6d. there for entering a place to conduct his business for the day, and there he could make a good deal more than the 12s. 6d. charged for admission.

Without some such Clause in the Bill it would be left to the racecourse authorities to charge whatever they liked, and it is in the interests of the bookmakers that we suggest including some kind of maximum. It is not a compulsory sum. We merely say the racecourse authorities shall not charge more than a certain number of times the amount charged to the public. The House should not suppose that the racecourse authorities are, on every course and on every day, going to charge the bookmaker five times the ordinary charge. What we do in this Bill is, first of all, to put an obligation on racecourse authorities to provide a place for the bookmaker, and then not to charge him more than five times the amount charged to the general public—£10 in the £2 enclosure, 12s. 6d. in the 2s. 6d. enclosure. It seems to me ridiculous to suppose that a racecourse authority is going to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs. If they find that the bookmaker will not pay five times after having put up the accommodation, they are not going to be such fools as to leave the buildings empty. [HoN. MEMBERS: "They do not provide buildings !"] In the Bill itself there is a provision that the Control Board shall make it a condition of the grant of a certificate of approval of any racecourse to enable them to put up a totalisator that such a racecourse shall provide a place, whether a building or not, where the bookmakers may carry on their business and to which the public may resort. Of course they may prefer an umbrella or a wooden stand. The provision is that they may, if they like, provide a building in which the bookmakers may carry on their business. I do not want to penalise the bookmaker against the totalisator. It may be he is a necessity of life in our present condition of civilisation. No one thinks he is going to eliminate betting now or for many centuries to come. The bookmaker will be there and, therefore, the racecourse authorities, as ordinary, reasonable human beings, are not, I imagine, going to charge the maximum amount if they find that it is killing their own business and that a bookmaker cannot afford to pay it.

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that there are to be two kinds of betting on the racecourse, betting with the totalisator and betting with the bookmaker, and it may well be that it will pay the owners of the racecourses to see bookmakers kept off, because there will be such a large subsidy from the totalisator receipts.

Will the charge, whatever it is, include the payment for the place? Or will they have to pay an official charge, according to the position of the place, above the charge made for admission?

I think it is the charge for admission to an enclosure for the purpose of a bookmaker's business, and in my opinion, the bookmaker, having once paid for the purpose of carrying on his business, must be permitted to carry on his business in that enclosure.

I agree, but they can all carry on their business in the enclosure. I do not profess to be an expert in the art of bookmaking, but it seems to me that a compromise of the kind I suggest, and which I understand has met with a great deal of approval, is a reasonable one, and would meet with general acceptance.

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment to the proposed Amendment.

Amendment to the proposed Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment made to the proposed Amendment: In line 3, leave out the word "ten" and insert instead thereof the word "five."—[ Sir W. Joynson-Hicks. ]

Proposed words, as amended, there inserted in the Bill.

I beg to move, in page 3, line 31, at the end, to insert the words "and any other moneys received by the Board."

The House will remember that the Home Secretary moved an Amendment yesterday to make it clear that the Control Board have the power only to purchase land for the erection of a totalisator and no power for such purposes as the purchase of racecourses. Under the wording of the Amendment which was accepted yesterday, it was provided that any surplus land could be leased or sold. Any money received from the lease or sale of that surplus land was to be paid into the fund provided in Clause 3, but the wording of the Clause at present does not permit of such money being paid in, and I therefore move this Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

I beg to move, in page 3, line 31, after the words last inserted, to insert the words:

All these figures, however, can only be assumptions, because the totalisators abroad are erected under entirely different conditions from those which will be erected in this country. Even, however, if the amount deducted is not 8 per cent., I think we should have something in the Bill limiting the amount to be stopped, because it has been found in some cases that, where the original percentage deduction from the money flowing through the machine has not been sufficient to fulfil the requirements of the owners or controllers of the machine at the end of the year, they have increased the percentage, and have gone on increasing it, until, I think, in the case of Brisbane, where they went bankrupt, they went up to 17 per cent. I personally should hope that, if the House agrees that 4 per cent. is a reasonable maximum deduction, and if that be carried—because we shall ask for a Division unless the Government can accept the figure of 4 per cent. as the maximum—we shall then ask that in another place there should be a revision of our earlier decision, in order to bring it into conformity with whatever may be the deduction from the intake of the mechanical appliance, and to even them up. We felt that twice the amount taken from the man who goes into the ring would bear a relationship to the 4 per cent. that would be deducted from the machine, but now it is proposed that five times the amount shall be taken from the human bookmaker, while the right -is still retained to extract up to 8 per cent. of the total intake of the totalisator. It does seem to me that some readjustment is necessary, and will be even more necessary in the event of the House agreeing that 4 per cent. would be a proper maximum to be deducted from the layers' money passing through the machine.

I feel sure that we must keep this in mind, whether we believe in betting or not. We have passed practically the whole of the Bill; the machine will be there, and it is possible that, if the whole of the money goes through on one horse, persons backing the winner will receive actually less than the original amount that they laid, by the margin of the deduction made. If 8 per cent. is deducted, I say that that is too much to place in the hands of the Control Board, in the light of the fact that, in the present circumstances, only 2 per cent. will go to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. If he only gets 1 per cent., then 7 per cent. of the total amount passing through the machine will be retained for improving the breed of horses, for the promotion of horse-racing, for improving the amenities of the racecourse, and for charities. It seems to me that this is an extraordinary proposal. I would not object if, say, 80 per cent. of the residue were to go to charity, but the Control Board will have the allocation, and the majority of them will represent horse-racing interests, so that we may suppose that the main portion of the money will go to increasing the stakes and the promotion of horse-breeding, and only a little will go to charities. I know many people who pose as philanthropists and make much use of the word "charity," but charity is the last thing they are disposed to deal with. Other things come first, and charity is usually the cloak to hide a good deal of their other allocations.

I would ask the right hon. Gentleman seriously to consider this financial aspect of the machine, and would urge that a deduction of 4 per cent. from the layers' money would be quite sufficient. If I were advocating a deduction that would assist the bookmaker, I would ask for a higher percentage, in order to put the machine in a less favourable position in competition with him, but I am asking. for 4 per cent., which puts it in a more favourable position, and, as I have said, I hope that, if the House agrees to the 4 per cent., a readjustment will be made in another place of the Amendment which has already been passed, so as to impose equal charges upon and give equal rights in competition to both of the units engaged in betting transactions.

I wish to take the opportunity of stating some percentages that I find obtaining in the operation of the totalisator in different parts of the world. I find, for example, that in New Zealand 7½ per cent. is deducted by the racing clubs. In Ontario, 5 per cent. is retained by the racing clubs, and 5 per cent. goes towards the betting tax. In the States of Australia, the deduction ranges from 6 per cent. in Western Australia to 121 per cent. in some other States. In the Transvaal it is 6 per cent., and in Natal 12 per cent. In regard to these larger percentages, I would take the liberty of pointing out that, while there is a great concourse of people on the racecourses in Australia, their population, after all, is very small, and the numbers are small compared with the numbers in this country, so that a much smaller percentage would yield the amount necessary for a racing club in this country. I would also point out that, in regard to New South Wales, it has been stated that the bare expense of running the totalisator is in certain towns only about 1½ per cent., and in country districts 3 per cent. While I have stated these facts, as I thought they might be interesting to the House, I must say that, as far as I am concerned, I am in a strait at the present time. It seems to me that there is to be a division of the spoils between the Jockey Club and the people who are foolish enough to go to racecourses, and, for my own part, I have so little affection for either the Jockey Club or the bookmaker, and so little reluctance to teach those who go to racecourses a lesson, that I rather think I shall refrain from voting on this Amendment.

I am afraid that it would be quite impossible to accept this Amendment and be certain that the Bill would be really practicable. It is absolutely necessary to give to the Board which has been set up a free hand in this matter. The hon. Member for Motherwell (Mr. Barr) has shown to the House, by the figures which he has read, how great are the variations in the amount. charged. The point is that the first charge on the machine, as laid down in the Bill, is the duty imposed by the Government, and then the other charges are reckoned. It is essential that the Board shall be left free to decide, and, of course, they will notify to the public, so that the public will be well aware of it, the amount of the deduction that will be made; and I would remind the House that the lesson taught by the history of the machine in other parts of the world is that, if anyone responsible for the machine is so stupid as to put the charge too high, he kills the goose that lays the golden eggs, because the public cease to use the machine. Therefore, it must be left to the discretion of the people who know what they are doing to decide what is the happy medium, what is a fair charge in order to get the results that the promoters of the Bill hope will follow from its passage, and not to put the charge at so high a figure that everyone will run away from the totalisator and go back to their former love, the bookmaker. Therefore, I would urge the House to resist this Amendment, because it is really a wrecking Amendment and would entirely spoil the purpose of the Bill.

Would the hon. and gallant Gentleman make one thing plain to me? I see the force of what he has said, but I have great difficulty at present in understanding the way in which the Clause is drawn. Subsection (3) of Clause 3 speaks of a fund known as the totalisator fund, into which are to be paid

"all moneys derived from the operation of totalisators."

Are "all moneys derived from the operation of totalisators" all the money that the public pays into the machine, or only some portion of that money?

It is the profit; it is the money derived after the transaction is completed. The actual amount of money, that is to say, the stake, is, of course, paid out, and the deduction is all that remains behind. The whole purpose of the Bill is that none of this money, or profit, as it may be called, resulting from the operation of the machine, shall go directly to the benefit of anyone at any particular racecourse.

I understand that, but, surely, the Clause is very oddly drawn, if I may presume to say so. If it be, as I suppose it is, one of the powers of the Racecourse Betting Control Board—the Clause is headed:

"Powers and duties of Board "—

while one of the powers of the Board, and a very important power, is to determine and to announce what percentage is going to be deducted, and then to deal with what is left as the money derived from the operation of the totalisator, the Bill completely omits anywhere to state, among the powers and duties of the Board, the very important power and duty of determining and announcing what is the amount of the deduction.

That shows what a very oddly drafted Bill this is. The very thing for which the Racecourse Betting Control Board really exists—namely, that it may stop out of the gross total a certain percentage, which I understand will be applied to maintenance charges, the improvement of prizes, and all sorts of other things—that very power, which is the essential power of the whole thing, is nowhere stated in the Bill.

As I understand it, the Racecourse Betting Control Board will have the power to authorise the percentage, but we are resisting this Amendment to tie it down to a definite figure which would leave only 2 per cent. for all the purposes for which the Bill is designed, because we think that that is insufficient.

I do not doubt that the hon. and gallant Gentleman is right, as he understands the matter thoroughly, but I would make this observation most respectfully to the House, that it does appear to me, and I think it will appear to His Majesty's Judges, nothing less than ridiculous to put forth an Act of Parliament stating the powers and duties of the Racecourse Control Board, and never include the power to determine what is the percentage that is going to be deducted and the duty to announce what it is.

I should think it is more than possible that the actual amount to be deducted will differ from time to time. One hon. Member has given us figures showing that the deductions vary from 5 to 12½ per cent. Obviously, the Betting Control Board must have power to regulate the amount to be deducted from the moneys of the general betting public before money is paid out to the winners.

I am told that some of these machines take as much as £50,000 or £60,000 at a big meeting. You may have a large number of men managing the concern, but the amount of betting may be so great that the percentage cost of operating it will be much smaller than in the case of a very small machine at a very small racecourse. If there is anyone who knows more of the totalisator from actual experience than I do, perhaps he will tell us, but we have it clearly in evidence from hon. Members opposite that the expenses differ on different racecourses and between one country and another.

In every racecourse in France the reduction is exactly the same, though I cannot imagine the expenses are always exactly uniform. I do not know if the right hon. Gentleman has thought this out, but it seems to me absurd that the deduction at Epsom should be on some quite small scale and at a country meeting should be on a very high one.

:If the same deduction takes place in regard to all totalisators in France, I imagine the percentage is so high as to cover the expenses of the smallest totalisator.

It is by no means certain that they are all going to be pooled here. The Betting Control Board will make arrangements with the owners of the totalisator. Clearly they can pool the whole of it, but there is nothing in the Bill to compel them to pool it. The point raised by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) requires very careful consideration, and I will consult with my legal advisers to see whether it is necessary to alter the Clause.

May I add one word. Anyone who looked at the Bill and saw the words

"all moneys derived from the operation of totalisator"

might very well supposes that to mean all money paid in. It obviously does not mean that, because no one would ever get anything. I think the draftsman here has proceeded on the assumption that everyone understands what the totalisator is to take, whereas the really important thing is to give the Racecourse Betting Control Board power to decide—it may be different in each case—how much the deduction is and then to say the money derived from the operation is the balance. At present, I do not find that.

I think the right hon. Gentleman has produced a point worthy of consideration, and I will undoubtedly consider it. But, in any case, I hope the House will not wish to

lay down a minimum or maximum amount of deduction. The hon. Member for West Nottingham (Mr. Hayday) suggested 4 per cent., and he told us if he had been acting in the bookmakers' interests he would have said 10 per cent., because the bigger the deduction the better the bookmakers would like it. On the other hand, the smaller the deduction the board can make, the better it will be for the people who back through the totalisator. It is clear that the amount can only be arrived at after consideration of all the costs of working the machine, and it may have to be altered from time to time. It would be quite futile to put a figure in the Bill which might quite likely prevent the totalisator working at all, because if the expenses of working come to 5 per cent. and they were limited to a deduction of 4 per cent., the whole thing would break down and could not be worked at all. That, I am sure, the House does not want to do, and I hope they will reject the Amendment. I will consult my legal advisers with reference to the point raised by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill.

The House divided: Ayes, 114; Noes, 202.

Division No. 307]

AYES.

[7.40 p.m.

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)

Ammon, Charles George

Gillett, George M.

Montague, Frederick

Attlee, Clement Richard

Gosling, Harry

Morris, R. H.

Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Baker, Walter

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Murnin, H.

Barnes, A.

Griffith, F. Kingsley

Naylor, T. E.

Batey, Joseph

Groves, T.

Owen, Major G.

Bondfield, Margaret

Grundy, T. W.

Palin, John Henry

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Briant, Frank

Hardie, George D.

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Broad, F. A.

Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

Potts, John S.

Bromfield, William

Hayday, Arthur

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Brown, Ernest (Leith)

Hayes, John Henry

Riley, Ben

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich)

Burton, Colonel H. W.

Hirst, G. H.

Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Scurr, John

Charleton, H. C.

Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

Sexton, James

Clarry, Reginald George

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Cluse, W. S.

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Shiels, Dr. Drummond

Compton, Joseph

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Shinwell, E.

Connolly, M.

Kelly, W. T.

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Cove, W. G.

Kennedy, T.

Sitch, Charles H.

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Dalton, Hugh

Kirkwood, D.

Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Lawson, John James

Smith, Rennie (Penlstone)

Dennison, R.

Lee, F.

Snell, Harry

Duncan, C.

Lowth, T.

Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

Dunnico, H.

MacLaren, Andrew

Stamford, T. W.

Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

Forrest. W.

Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

Strauss, E. A.

Gardner, J P.

March, S.

Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

Sullivan, Joseph

Wellock, Wilfred

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Sutton, J. E.

Westwood, J.

Windsor, Walter

Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

Wright, W.

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Thurtle, Ernest

Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

Viant, S. P.

Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Watson. W. M. (Dunfermline)

Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

Mr. T. Henderson and Mr. Whiteley,

NOES.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Fielden, E. B.

Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

Monseil, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)

Foster, Sir Harry S.

Moore, Sir Newton J.

Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

Fraser, Captain Ian

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Apsley, Lord

Fremantle, Lt.-Col. Francis E.

Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

Galbraith, J. F. W.

Neville, Sir Reginald J.

Atholl, Duchess of

Ganzonl, Sir John

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

Nuttall, Ellis

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Glyn, Major R. G. C.

O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

Bainlel, Lord

Goff, Sir Park

Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Gower, Sir Robert

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

Grace, John

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon

Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

Pilditch, Sir Philip

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter

Pownall, Sir Assheton

Berry, Sir George

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Price, Major C. W. M.

Birchall, Major J. Dearman

Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

Raine, Sir Walter

Blundell, F. N.

Grotrian, H. Brent

Rentoul, G. S.

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

Braithwaite, Major A. N.

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

Brass, Captain W.

Hamilton, Sir George

Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

Brassey, Sir Leonard

Hammersley, S. S.

Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Hanbury, C.

Ropner, Major L.

Brittain, Sir Harry

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. J.

Harland, A.

Salmon, Major I.

Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

Hartington, Marquess of

Sandeman, N. Stewart

Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

Sanders, Sir Robert A.

Brown, Brig Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)

Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

Sanderson, Sir Frank

Buckingham, Sir H

Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian

Savery, S. S.

Bullock, Captain M.

Henn, Sir Sydney H.

Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan

Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

Staney, Major P. Kenyon

Burman, J. B.

Hilton, Cecil

Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)

Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

Smith. R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

Campbell, E. T.

Hopkins, J. W. W.

Smithers, Waldron

Carver, Major W. H.

Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)

Southby, Commander A. R. J.

Cassels, J. D.

Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N.

Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

Sprot, Sir Alexander

Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S)

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.

Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

Hume, Sir G. H.

Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis

Stanley, Hen. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

Hurd, Percy A.

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Hurst, Gerald B.

Streatfeild, Captain S. R.

Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George

Iliffe, Sir Edward M.

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

Cohen, Major J. Brunel

Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

Cooper, A. Duff

Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William

Tinne, J. A.

Cope, Major Sir William

Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

Couper, J. B

Kindersley, Major Guy M.

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Courtauld, Major J. S.

King, Commodore Henry Douglas

Wallace, Captain D. E.

Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

Knox, Sir Alfred

Ward. Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull}

Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.)

Lamb, J. Q.

Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

Warrender, Sir Victor

Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

Little, Dr. E. Graham

Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

Looker, Herbert William

Watts, Sir Thomas

Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

Lougher, Lewis

Wells, S. R.

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Lumley, L. R

White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple

Dalkeith, Earl of

MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford)

Macintyre, Ian

Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

McLean, Major A

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Davies, Dr. Vernon

MacRobert, Alexander M.

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Dawson, Sir Philip

Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham)

Withers, John James

Eden, Captain Anthony

Makins, Brigadier-General E.

Wood E.(Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Malone, Major P. B.

Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

Elliot, Major Waiter E.

Margesson, Captain D.

Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Fairfax, Captain J. G

Mason. Colonel Glyn K.

Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

Falle, Sir Bertram G.

Merriman, Sir F. Boyd

Fermoy, Lord

Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Captain Bowyer and Mr. Penny.

I beg to move, in page 3, line 32, after the word "may", to insert the words "for the purposes of this Act."

As the Bill is worded, it gives the Control Board powers to arrange different companies and to do all sorts of things of that kind which are clearly not intended by the Measure. I understand that these limiting words after the word "may" will be acceptable.

I beg to move, in page 3, line 33, to leave out the word may."

This is consequential upon the Amendment which has just been moved.

Amendment agreed to.

CLAUSE 4.—(Prohibition of betting trans actions with persons under seventeen.)

I beg to move, in page 4, line 19, after the word "person," to insert the word "apparently."

This Amendment is one of a series of five amendments in order to carry out a promise which was made in Committee in regard to the re-drafting of this Clause. The Committee thought, and, I think, quite rightly, that it was unfair that the man behind the guichet should be made responsible for the penalty. I therefore promised that if the Clause were left as it was in Committee we would bring forward Amendments on the Report stage to make the necessary alterations. The House will see that we have carried out that promise by the various alterations which we now propose. To begin with, we desire to put in the word "apparently," and we have provided that it shall be a defence to a charge under this Section to prove that the person apparently under the age of 17 years was at the time of the alleged offence actually of, or over, that age. We also propose to make it clear that there shall be no penalty of imprisonment but only a monetary penalty, and that the persons who will be liable to pay the penalty will be those having the management of the approved racecourse and not the individual who is behind the guichet. I think it was the general desire of the Committee that these Amendments should be made, and I hope that they will be accepted as agreed Amendments.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made;

In page 4, line 21, after the word "person," insert the word "apparently."

In page 4, leave out from the word "pounds" in line 24, to the end of the Sub-section, and insert instead thereof:

"(2) It shall be a defence to a charge under this Section to prove that the person apparently under the age of seventeen years was at the time of the alleged offence actually of or above that age."

In page 4, line 39, after the word "person," insert the word "apparently."

In page 4, leave out from the word "with" in line 41, to the word "and" in page 5, line 2, and insert instead thereof the words:

"the persons having the management of the approved racecourse upon which the totalisator was being operated."—[ Sir V. Henderson. ]

CLAUSE 5.—(Short title and extent.)

I beg to move, in page 5, line 6, after the word "to," to insert the words "Scotland or."

I understand that there is a natural desire to get forward in order to consider the Third Reading of this Measure, and, therefore, while I do not wish to under-rate the importance of my Amendment, I will speak to it as shortly as possible. The Amendment, in effect, is to exclude Scotland from the operations of the Bill. When I brought this proposal forward in the Committee, I was met by the Solicitor-General for Scotland, whom I am glad to see in his place, though he is not quite in the limelight. He stated that on the Second Reading there had been a majority of Scottish Members in favour of the Bill. I was curious to look at the Division List, and I found that 13 Scottish Members had voted for the Measure and that 12 had voted against it. When we consider that there are 72 Members for Scotland altogether, I think that it can hardly be claimed that the 13 Members who gave the Bill their support were expressing the opinion of Scotland.

Those who know the facts of the betting law know that in the main Act which we are discussing—the Act of 1853 —Scotland was exempted. There was a two-fold reason for that. First of all, the churches thought that they could manage the betting evil without resort to the force of law. This is how they sought to manage it. They passed an Act in the Church that, if anyone made over 100 marks on dice or cards or horse racing, they were bound to give the surplus over to the Kirk Session. I think it was a great lapse on the part of the Church when they gave a precedent for a Betting Duty in those far distant days. Consequently, the Act of 1853 was not applied to Scotland till 1874. The second reason was this, that Scotland had always eschewed betting because she was so much given to thrift. She is famous throughout the world for the virtue of thrift. As a matter of fact, the Glasgow Savings Bank shows something like £22,000,000 of deposits. I do not want it to be understood that Scotland is ever stingy. I would like to remind the House that for the second edition of his poems Robert Burns received in Edinburgh £500, whereas John Milton only received £12 in England for his "Paradise Lost." This shows that we do things on a much more generous and magnanimous scale in Scotland.

To come more closely to my point, I am bound to confess that the evils of gambling are already very rampant in Scotland without the introduction of any machinery of any kind. Mr. James McLean, a commission agent in Glasgow, has given testimony that for the year. 1st November, 1925, to the end of October, 1926, he himself received 86,883 telegrams. In Glasgow, a sum of £30,000 is placed each day with nine bookmakers on 200 days of flat racing in the year. In the Select Committee on the Betting Duty, 1923, you find this fact also, that in an area of four streets of tenements in Glasgow, with a population in those streets of 10,870 persons, a sum of £300 each day is placed with six bookmakers. A Glasgow credit bookmaker gave evidence that he had an annual turnover of £1,500,000. On the other side, I want to emphasise that the churches in Scotland have made a real protest, and a strong protest, against the totalisator, and, without taking up the time of the House too much, I would like to read the declaration of the Scottish National League against betting and gambling. It represents all the churches. I think that what they say is very apposite and well worth being said in this House:

I beg to second the Amendment.

8.0 p.m.

If the chief argument for bringing Scotland within the scope of this Bill is that a majority of one, on a Friday, voted for the Second Reading—it was on a day when Scottish Members want to go home—may I suggest that on this question of the exclusion of Scotland the English Members should abstain from voting, and allow Scottish Members to decide whether or not Scotland is to have the totalisator? If that were done and English Members Mere to abstain, I feel certain that with the assistance of the Welsh Members—we shall come to their assistance on the next Amendment—there will be no totalisator in Scotland.

I desire to associate the Scottish Members on the Liberal Benches with what has been said. We have complained on several occasions during the last few years of Measures affecting Scotland being tacked on to English Bills. If English Members want a totalisator in England let them have it, but I think that if Scotland were consulted no one in Scotland would have the totalisator, and that if this Measure had been submitted as a Scottish Measure to Scottish Members it would not have passed.

I understand it is your desire, Mr. Speaker, that we should argue the case for the exclusion of Wales from the operation of the Bill at the same time as we argue the exclusion of Scotland. On behalf of my hon. Friends on this side of the House who come from the Principality, I can say that we are extremely anxious that Wales should be excluded from the benefits, or otherwise, of this Bill. My hon. Friend the Member for Motherwell (Mr. Barr) mentioned that it had been argued against him that not all the Scottish Members voted against the Bill on Second Reading. That cannot be said about the Welsh Members, for all who took part in the Division on the Second Reading were against the Second Reading. I need not state what is known to everyone, that the national sentiment of Wales would be almost uniquely against this Bill. No one in this House can refer me to a single racecourse inside the Principality that is run under the rules of the Jockey Club, with the exception of one quite recently established at Chepstow. That is a pretty clear indication that, so far as Welsh opinion and practice are concerned, Wales has no desire to be associated with the operation of this business, and I am sure that public opinion in Wales will be exacerbated against this business tenfold once it is discovered that the State is to be involved in it.

In seeking for the exclusion of Wales from the Bill I am asking for the recognition of no new principle, because it is now the practice in regard to much legislation to exclude Wales from its operation. I need not enumerate the Acts. That principle has been recognised over and over again. We are asking, therefore, not for some tremendous innovation in legislation, but for something that is in accord with precedent and practice, and in this case is most certainly in accord with the national sentiment of the Principality. I have already indicated that I had the privilege of sitting with certain hon. Members opposite on the Select Committee of 1923. They will agree with me, I am sure, that after 19 sittings and after hearing 40 witnesses we had overwhelming evidence to indicate the very grave inroads of the practice of betting among the young in our towns and cities, and indeed in far off villages. We feel, therefore, that if we are to introduce this more formal recognition of the association of the State with the business, it will be a vicious principle, and I am sure that I express the view of the majority in Wales when I ask that the Principality be excluded from the operation of the Bill.

I wish to support the proposal to exclude Wales. I spoke earlier on an Amendment designed to permit local authorities being consulted before racecourses were approved. I support the exclusion of Wales as a wider claim on behalf of a nation, that she shall be consulted before legislation of this kind is imposed. I am certain that no supporter of this Bill can produce a single piece of evidence that Wales has asked for the Measure. I should be surprised if anyone could produce a single resolution from any body of people in that country in favour of the Bill as it stands. We are going through very distressing times in the Principality, and we do not want any Measures that will induce our people to spend their money frivolously. We have cried out time after time and prayed Parliament to do something for our distressed population. We have cried for bread, and the Government have offered us a stone. We have asked for some means of comfort and relief for our distressed people and the Government give us a machine to enable them to bet and spend their money more freely. I am a Welshman and have some regard for the traditions of our people, and I know that those traditions do not run along these lines. The betting that now goes on in Wales is a thing that was brought in from outside. I believe that our people wish to be free from this scheme. If the Englishmen in this House wish to embark upon this mad enterprise, let them do it by themselves, but let

them give us in Scotland and Wales the privilege of remaining outside and seeing the social and moral ruin that they bring upon their own people.

I understand that the Amendment before the House is to exclude Scotland, with which I agree, and that we are at the same time dealing with an Amendment to exclude Wales, with which I also agree. I would like to know whether I should be entitled to move that England be excluded, or whether I have to rely on my right hon. Friend who is later to move the rejection of the Bill. In any case I am totally opposed to the Bill, root and branch.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 114; Noes, 182.

Division No. 308.]

AYES.

8.11 p.m.

Adamson. W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Hardie, George D.

Runciman, Hilda (Cornwall, St. Ives)

Ammon, Charles George

Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

Scrymgeour, E.

Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

Hayday, Arthur

Scurr, John

Attlee, Clement Richard

Hayes, John Henry

Sexton, James

Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

Henderson, Rt, Hon. A. (Burnley)

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Baker, Walter

Hills, Major John Waller

Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

Barnes, A.

Hirst, G. H.

Shiels, Dr. Drummond

Barr, J.

Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

Shinwell, E.

Batey, Joseph

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Bondfield, Margaret

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)

Brlant, Frank

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

Broad, F. A.

Kelly, W. T.

Snell, Harry

Bromfield, William

Kennedy, T.

Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

Brown, Ernest (Leith)

Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

Stamford, T. W.

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Kirkwood, D.

Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

Lawson, John James

Strauss, E. A.

Charleton, H. C.

Little, Dr. E. Graham

Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

Clarry, Reginald George

Lowth, T.

Sullivan, J

Cluse, W. S.

MacLaren, Andrew

Sutton, J. E.

Compton, Joseph

Meclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

Connolly, M.

Malone, C. L'Estrange N'thampton)

Thurtle, Ernest

Cove, W. G.

March, S.

Viant, S. P.

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Dalton, Hugh

Morris, R. H.

Wellock, Wilfred

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Westwood, J.

Dennison, R.

Murnin, H.

Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

Duncan, C.

Naylor, T. E.

Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

Gardner, J. P.

Oliver, George Harold

Williams, David (Swansea, East)

Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

Owen, Major G.

Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)

Gillett, George M.

Palin, John Henry

Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

Gosling, Harry

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Windsor, Walter

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

Wright, W.

Griffith, F. Kingsley

Potts, John S.

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Groves, T.

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Grundy, T. W.

Riley, Ben

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich)

Mr. T. Henderson and Mr. Whiteley.

NOES.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon

Braithwaite. Major A. N.

Alexander, E. E (Leyton)

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Brass. Captain W.

Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)

Berry, Sir George

Brassey, Sir Leonard

Apsley, Lord

Birchall, Major J. Dearman

Briscoe, Richard George

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

Blundell, F. N.

Brittain, Sir Harry

Atholl, Duchess of

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B.

Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)

Harland, A.

Price, Major C. W. M.

Buchan, John

Hartington, Marquess of

Raine, Sir Walter

Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan

Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

Rentoul, G. S.

Burman, J. B.

Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian

Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

Caine, Gordon Hall

Henn, Sir Sydney H.

Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)

Campbell, E. T.

Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

Ropner, Major L.

Carver, Major W. H.

Hilton, Cecil

Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

Cassels, J. D.

Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Hopkins, J. W. W.

Salmon, Major I.

Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.)

Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)

Sandeman, N. Stewart

Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N.

Sanders, Sir Robert A.

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

Sanderson, Sir Frank

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

Savery, S. S.

Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George

Hume, Sir G. H.

Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W. R., Sowerby)

Cohen, Major J. Brunel

Hurst, Gerald B.

Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

Slaney, Major P. Kenyon

Cope, Major Sir William

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)

Couper, J. B.

Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William

Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

Courtauld, Major J. S.

Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

Smithers, Waldron

Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islingtn. N.)

King, Commodore Henry Douglas

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

Knox, Sir Alfred

Southby, Commander A. R. J.

Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

Lamb, J. Q.

Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

Locker, Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey

Sprot, Sir Alexander

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Looker, Herbert William

Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.

Daikeith, Earl of

Laugher, Lewis

Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

Lumley, L. R.

Staley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

Davies, Dr. Vernon

MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Dawson, Sir Philip

McLean, Major A.

Streatfeild, Captain S. R.

Eden, Captain Anthony

MacRobert, Alexander M.

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Maitland, A. (Kent. Faversham)

Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

Elliot, Major Walter E.

Makins, Brigadier-General E.

Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell.

Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

Malone, Major P. B.

Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

Fairfax. Captain J. G.

Margesson, Captain D.

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Falle, Sir Bertram G.

Mason, Colonel Glyn K.

Wallace, Captain D. E.

Fermoy, Lord

Merriman, Sir F. Boyd

Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

Fielden, E. B.

Milne. J. S. Wardlaw-

Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

Foster, Sir Henry S.

Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

Watts, Sir Thomas

Galbraith, J. F. W.

Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

Wells, S. R.

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

Moore. Sir Newton J.

Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

Glyn, Major R. G. C.

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

Goff, Sir Park

Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Gower, Sir Robert

Neville, Sir Reginald J.

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Grace, John

Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

Withers, John James

Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

Nuttall, Ellis

Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)

Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter

O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Oman. Sir Charles William C.

Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

Grotrian, H. Brent

Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

Hamilton, Sir George

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Hammersley, S. S.

Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Hanbury, C.

Philipson, Mabel

Mr. Penny and Sir Victor Warrender.

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Pilditch, Sir Philip

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."—[ Sir W. Joynson-Hicks. ]

I beg to move to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day three months."

We have only a very short time for the Debate on the Third Reading, and as I believe that a number of my hon. Friends on this side are anxious to take part, and I have no doubt hon. Members opposite will do so later in the evening, I shall occupy the time of the House for only a few minutes. One of the most interesting and significant things about this Bill is its history. It was introduced and passed its Second Reading as a private Member's Measure. It is true that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, speaking on behalf of the Government said, in the Second Reading Debate, that if the Bill received the approval of the House of Commons the Government would provide time for the further stages of the Bill, if it came back from Committee. The Chancellor of the Exchequer on that occasion made a most interesting speech in which he made a number of rather confidential admissions and confessions. Whilst disclaiming any particular interest in the Bill, he said that this was the second time in 25 years membership of this House that he had ever taken part in a discussion on a private Member's Bill. He made the still more interesting confession that the Cabinet were not united upon this question. The Government, he said, were at sixes and sevens. Finally, he announced that if the House carried the Second Reading of the Bill the Government would provide facilities for it, which was evidently the outcome of a compromise in the Cabinet, in which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had wrenched that concession from his colleagues in the Cabinet who were among the sixes.

The Bill passed its Second Reading by the very small majority of 15. There were three Divisions on that occasion and on each Division the majority fell, and the Bill was only saved by a majority of two in the third of those Divisions. The Chancellor of the Exchequer also said that he hoped the House of Commons would put out of its mind any delusions that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had any special interest in this Bill. I believe that observation was made in reply to a statement by the hon. and gallant Member for Abingdon (Major Glyn), who is responsible for the Bill, which observation, if I remember aright, was something to the effect that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was likely to benefit by the introduction of this mechanical scheme of betting. I wonder if the Chancellor of the Exchequer convinced anybody by that observation that he had no special interest in this Bill. As a matter of fact, a far more correct title for this Bill would he The Chancellor's Relief Bill.

There are two reasons for the introduction of this Measure. One is the failure of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's Betting Duty—the most miserable failure, the most grotesque fiasco that ever happened in the financial history of this country. It has never yielded more than half of the estimates of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, as we all know, is extremely anxious already about the financial position of the country at the end of the present financial year. His Budget has been upset to the extent of something like £4,000,000 by the strategical retreat he made upon the matter of the Paraffin Duty. The right hon. Gentleman made a statement yesterday that he proposes, when the Finance Bill comes forward for consideration on Monday, some Amendment in the Betting Duty; an Amendment which in itself will involve a sacrifice of revenue of over £1,000,000 a year.

Is the Chancellor of the Exchequer so prodigal, is his financial position so flourishing that he can afford to throw away one half of what he would have received during the present financial year had the tax remained as it was. His generosity in this respect is strangely inconsistent with the attitude he adopted towards every one of the Amendments we moved to the Finance Bill for the reduction of taxation, which might have cost him a comparatively small sum of money. He always gave the excuse that he could not possibly afford it, however small the amount might have been. I say that the first reason why this Bill has been supported by the Government is because the Chancellor of the Exchequer hopes that it may, to some extent, ease his financial embarrassment consequent upon the grotesque failure a the Betting Tax. The second reason is—and this is a confession which was made quite frankly by the hon. and gallant Member for Abingdon when he moved the Second Reading of the Bill—that among the many depressed industries of the country, horse breeding and horse racing are now included. Through the hon. and gallant Member in this Bill the racecourse owners and racehorse owners, and the various horse racing associations, have come to the House of Commons with proposals under which they expect to get financial assistance in order to relieve the depression in their industry. That is the second reason, and it cannot be disputed.

The hon. Member for Motherwell (Mr. Barr) quoted last night a very striking admission from a letter of Lord Hamilton of Dalzell in the "Times." In that letter he said that just after the Second Reading had been carried he received a message from the Chancellor of the Exchequer to come to the Treasury to see him, and that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had already prepared the Amendments which the Government would propose during the Committee stage of the Bill. That is curiously inconsistent with the statement which the Chancellor of the Exchequer made to the House of Commons that he had no special interest in this Measure. It showed, and I do not think I am wrong in the assumption, that if the Amendments were ready a few days after the Bill had passed Second Reading, that those Treasury Amendments had been prepared before the Second Reading was carried by such a small majority. These are the two reasons which have prompted the introduction of this Bill: to help the Chancellor of the Exchequer and to help the depressed horse-racing industry.

I shall wait until the Chancellor of the Exchequer explains more fully the statement he made yesterday in regard to the alteration in the Betting Tax, but of this I am quite sure, that by one means or another he hopes to get, not the amount of yield which he received from the Betting Duty only, but a larger sum from the Betting Duty, bookmakers' licences and other sources. That being so, we are justified in thinking that the Chancellor of the Exchequer expects that the use of the totalisator will yield a very large revenue, that he will be secured from evasion through the introduction of this mechanical bookmaker and that he is likely to realise at least the original estimate that he made. The hon. Member for Motherwell gave us some very striking figures and some very striking testimony in regard to the effects and consequences of the mechanical bookmaker in New Zealand and Australia. We, as the House knows, have opposed the State association with betting ever since the Chancellor of the Exchequer first proposed the Betting Tax.

I am not going to argue to-night what has been described as the moral issue in this question, but if I do not say much about it I do not want it to be assumed that the importance to be attached to that side of the question is any less than it was when we impressed upon the House, two years ago, the seriousness of that aspect of the Chancellor's proposals. A reply was give to a question two days ago in regard to the amount spent in New Zealand under this mechanical system of betting, but I want the House to understand the difference between the betting laws in New Zealand and in this country; and it is a very material point. Betting is carried on in New Zealand only by means of these machines. Every other form of betting is illegal, Betting odds are prohibited by law from being published in the newspapers, and I believe, although I am not quite certain, that the telephones and telegraphs cannot be used in New Zealand for the purpose of making bets. I do not want the House to assume that I have committed myself in the least in the next observation I am going to make. It is very often stated, indeed the Home Secretary himself said only a few minutes ago, that we cannot abolish betting. Betting, he said, will be carried on in generations to come. Suppose we accept that, then, if the evil cannot be abolished, there might be something to be said for means which would reduce it within the narrowest possible limits and place it under the strictest regulation and control; but a regulation and control which would be so designed as not to encourage but to decrease betting.

An analogy is often drawn—the Chancellor of the Exchequer has done so over and over again—between State regulation and control of the liquor traffic and the association of the State with betting. The analogy is one which cannot be sustained. In this case, the object of this Bill is the State regulation of betting for the purpose of encouraging betting and not for the purpose of decreasing the amount of betting. That is the whole difference between the State's association with and regulation of the liquor traffic and the recent State association with betting. The hon. and gallant Member who moved the Second Reading of the Bill made one statement with which I wholly agree. He spoke about the chaotic and illogical condition of the betting laws and said he thought it would have been better if, instead of his having to introduce such a proposal as this, the Cabinet had undertaken a full inquiry into all the betting laws, and if recommendations from some authoritative commission or committee had resulted from such an inquiry legislation might have followed. One objection which I have, among many, to this Bill is that, of all its provisions, not one is going to deal with any of the existing evils of betting. It is not going to touch street betting; it is not going to touch credit betting.

May I interpolate this remark? Like the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary, I am no authority on betting, and much of the talk which I have heard on the technicalities of the subject is wholly incomprehensible to me. But it has always seemed strange to me that credit betting should be legal and that cash betting should be illegal. If any form of betting is to be made legal, it seems to me that it is cash betting which ought to be legalised in preference to the other, because everybody will agree that a great deal more serious crime—what I might call big crime, such as huge defalcations and the like—results from credit betting than from cash betting. That evil is not going to be touched by any of the provisions of this Bill.

I come to a very important part of the Bill, namely, the constitution of the Board. It is in the constitution of that Board that we get the closest association between the State—the Government of the day—and horse racing and betting. The Treasury, the Home Office, the Department of the Secretary of State for Scotland, the Board of Agriculture, are to be represented upon this Board. It is quite true that the State has not complete control. It can only influence the Board. But the Home Secretary, as long as he retains his present office, will have the appointment of the chairman. That is, basing my remark upon a statement which is reported to have been made by his colleague, the Secretary of State for War, yesterday, so long as the right hon. Gentleman holds his present office, which will be for less than 12 months——

he will have the appointment of the chairman. Now an Amendment was moved last night and it was opposed by the right hon. Gentleman. The Amendment was to the effect that the chairman of this Board should not be anybody having an interest in racing, and the argument which the right hon. Gentleman put forward against it, was that it would not be right to fetter the freedom of choice and liberty of action of the Home Secretary in making a selection. Surely the right hon. Gentleman must be aware of what has happened in connection with a number of recent Acts of Parliament. It is quite true that the Cinematograph Films Act did not come within his province, and therefore he is probably not aware of a very important provision in that Act which has a direct bearing on this matter. A similar body was set up under that Act—an advisory committee—and it was composed, in just about the same proportions, of people who had no interest in the trade and of representatives of the different interests involved. The Board of Trade laid it down that certain members, including the chairman, should have no direct or indirect interest in the film business. There was a precedent for the right hon. Gentleman. The President of the Board of Trade did not think he was hampered in the selection of a chairman because of that condition.

Take another case, that of the British Broadcasting Corporation. In that case, it was laid down that no governor should have any financial interest whatever in any firm or any business concerned in manufacturing materials which might be used for broadcasting purposes. They might not even be small shareholders in such business. Therefore the right hon. Gentleman had another precedent there. It was urged in support of the Amendment to which I have referred, in regard to the chairman of this Board, that it was very undesirable that anybody having an interest in racing or horse-breeding should be chairman of such a control board. I hope our suspicions are altogether unfounded, but I thought that the reason why the Home Secretary rejected that Amendment was that there was some likelihood that he might add to the number of the interested persons on the Board by the appointment of a chairman who had some interest in racing or horse breeding.

I said, just now, that the constitution of this Board and the representation of the various Government Departments upon it, bring the State and betting into the closest contact. I suppose that on these machines the Royal Arms would be emblazoned. It is, I assume, perfectly certain that there will appear the words: "Under Government Patronage." Probably there will be painted upon the machines the names of the members of the Board of Control, and I have heard it suggested already that there is a competition in regard to the short name of these machines. Some people suggest that they should be called "Jixies," but others prefer that they should be known as "Winnies," so there seems to be a conflict between the supporters of the Home Secretary and those of the Chancellor of the Exchequer as to which should get immortal fame by their association with these machines. Reference was made in passing by one of my hon. Friends during the Debate to that very indefinite proviso that the Board of Control may allocate a part of their profits to charitable purposes. Well, charity, it is said, covers a multitude of sins, and I remember that at an earlier stage of the Debate it was held out as a reason why support should be given to this Bill that hospitals are all in serious financial! difficulties and, therefore, that the profits which might be distributed to charitable purposes by the Board of Control would be very welcome indeed to the hospitals of the country.

It is very little that the charities are going to get from this Bill. Many of my friends behind me have expressed their ignorance of Tattersalls, and if I were to try to describe what Tattersalls is, I should probably prove to those who are well informed on the subject that my ignorance was quite as great as that of my hon. Friends. But am I not right in saying that Tattersalls is neither a horse-breeding concern nor a race owning concern, but that it is purely a betting institution? Therefore you are having upon this Board of Control not merely representatives of the Government, of the racecourse owners, and of horse breeders, but representatives of betting institutions. I hope the Home Secretary will find the company congenial; I hope he will be proud of the company into which he has been ushered by the activities of his colleague, the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I have heard the statement made several times in the course of the Debate to-day that this mechanical bookmaker will cleanse the racecourses, that it will do something to lessen the rascality which, according to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, is to be found in connection with horse racing to-day; but, as I have pointed out at considerable length, that is not the purpose for which this Bill was introduced. That may be the result, or it may not be the result, but whatever this Bill does in that respect, it can touch only an infinitesimal part of the betting evil and of the rascality—to use the Chancellor's expression, not mine—which is associated with betting at the present time.

What the percentage of betting through this mechanical bookmaker will be I do not know, but we have a great authority upon betting expenditure and revenue in the hon. and learned Member for East Grinstead (Sir H. Cautley), and I remember him saying some time ago that 90 per cent. of the betting was carried out through these credit offices. If that be so, what is the proportion that is carried on illegally by the street bookmakers? Surely that has not been an insignificant amount of the remaining 10 per cent., and would I be wrong if I said that these machines cannot deal with more than about 1 per cent. of the total betting that is carried on? It must be remembered that the numbers of people who attend a race meeting personally are never more than a very small proportion of the people who bet on the races. I believe I once took the House of Commons sufficiently into my confidence, when we were discussing in its early stages the Betting Duty, as to tell them that I once attended a race meeting, many years ago, and that it was the best investment that I ever made. I backed a horse and lost, and I was wise enough to learn by the experience. That by the way, but a very large number of people who go to the racecourses do not bet. That. I know. There is a love of horses, a love of sport, by people who loathe betting, and I know many who love horses who would never make a bet.

The State, as I have said, is now officially associated with betting. This machine, under the patronage of the Government, is nothing more than a gigantic "bookie." As a matter of fact, the Government have now entered into the business of a bookmaker, and the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary is chief "bookie." The right hon. Gentleman—I am quite sure he will not think this offensive—will now be engaged in making two books. I understand that he is engaged in making a revised Prayer Book, and, therefore, he can alternate the employment of his spare time between making a Prayer Book and making a betting book. I sympathise with the right hon. Gentleman. He is far too good to have this business imposed upon him. I know that the right hon. Gentleman hates it. Where is the Chancellor of the Exchequer? The Chancellor of the Exchequer has done to the right hon. Gentleman what he has so often done to his other colleagues when something disagreeable had to be done. If a Safeguarding Duty had to be proposed, he left it to the President of the Board of Trade, and got up, when it was reached in the Finance Bill, and contemptuously and ostentatiously walked out of the House. He has done that with the Minister of Trans- port. He has done it now with the Home Secretary, and I am sorry that the right hon. Gentleman had not the courage of his convictions in this matter and, when he was over-ruled by the majority of his colleagues in the Cabinet, that he had not the courage to say, "Well, go on with it but I certainly am not going to have the responsibility—I might add the odium—of piloting this Measure through the House of Commons." He ought to have said, "This is the Chancellor's baby; he may nurse it." The party opposite are opposed to nationalisation. Now they have nationalised betting. They are opposed to the nationalisation of things which will be a public benefit, but they are not opposed to the nationalisation of vice.

During the last two days I have felt disgusted with the waste of Parliamentary time on this matter. The House of Commons has spent four days upon this Bill, and 11 days were spent upstairs. At a time when we have 1,250,000 men out of work, the House of Commons and the Government can find time for this Measure, but can find no time to deal with grave evils like unemployment, and trades and industries which are just rocking over into the abyss. We are told that this Bill is to improve the breed of horses. Has it never occurred to the Government that more important than the breeding of horses is the breeding of men? The time of the House of Commons ought to have been spent in the breeding of men, not in the encouragement of betting, with all its terrible social consequences. We are getting near a General Election. The Government will be able to present their record to the electors 12 months' hence, and what will that record be? They will be able to say to the electors: "We have nationalised vice; we have made the State nothing less than a bookies' tout."

9.0 p.m.

I should like to emphasise the fact, which I think has not yet been sufficiently realised on both sides of the House, that the proposal in this Bill constitutes an entirely new departure from the attitude hitherto taken up by Parliament with reference to this important question. Parliament has from time to time dealt with the betting question. Former Acts have been designed purely with the object of restraining and checking betting. This Bill, as I understand it, is designed to facilitate betting, and in many ways make it a more simple operation. Former Governments were alive to the evil connected with betting, and sought to diminish it. This Government is much more alive to the money to be made out of betting, and in this Bill it seeks to make more. I believe that this change of attitude on the part of Parliament will have very far-reaching and disastrous effects. Whatever view we may take with regard to betting, whether we regard it as a legitimate amusement or describe it in a far stronger way, none of us need be shy about facing the fact that there is a great moral issue connected with it. I can quite understand that it is agreeable to those who get amusement out of betting to forget the poverty and misery and the deterioration of character which is so often associated with it; but we in this House cannot afford to forget these things. I do not think that we are allowed to decide on the theoretical ethics of gambling; that does not seem to matter. What we have to do is to face the facts of the situation, take a practical view of what the result of betting is in our country, and to realise that betting is increasing enormously, and that the evils connected with betting are increasing too.

It is no wonder, now that so much more information is given by the Press on the subject of betting, that the temptation should increase. If it be a temptation to a rich man who does it for the mere pleasure of it, how much greater must the temptation be to poor people who have far less opportunity for pleasure, and who in many cases have not the means to provide the necessities of life, not because they are not willing to work and earn honest wages but because they cannot get work to do. I am inclined to think that one of the reasons why so many hon. Members on this side of the House are opposed to this Bill is, not because they really have a higher moral standard than hon. Gentlemen opposite—although I would not like to lay down any law on the point—but because they are forced to recognise, by personal contact, so many of the disasters and tragedies which come from this practice. Those of us who have been forced to realise how great an evil this is deeply deplore the fact that the Government have shown themselves entirely indifferent to the moral issue of this question.

The reason given for this Bill is as deplorable as the Bill itself. We are told that the Government have taken up this Measure because they think it will help them financially. That seems to me the very worst reason of all, because, once we admit the principle that in order to raise money the Government are entitled to participate in the betting business, why should we stop short at a mere percentage out of the totalisator? If money is what we are after, why should we not embark on State lotteries? That would be a more possible way than the betting business. I do not suggest that the Government contemplate doing this, but we do not know what the development may be. Once you have taken a step in a business, it is easy to take a further step than to come out of it.

The whole attitude of the public will be profoundly modified as a result of this Measure. The Government are giving a new sanction to betting, and it is going to make far harder the path of those people who are doing all they can to check gambling among the young people to have to own up to the fact that four Government Departments are now participators in the betting business. I know that hon. Members attach considerable importance to the value of the State connection with their Church; they believe that it gives added dignity and prestige to their Church. The same must apply to gambling. There is no doubt that the State connection with gambling will give added prestige and importance to it. I believe that once this is realised to be the outcome of this Measure a great deal more opposition to it will be forthcoming than has yet been heard. Public opinion is becoming active in the matter, and I would like to read a telegram which I have received from the Wesleyan Conference now sitting in Liverpool, a conference representing both ministers and the laity.

I also am a member of the Wesleyan Church. Do I understand that that official message comes to my hon. Friend as a representative of the Wesleyans to speak for them?

The telegram was sent to me in order that I might have the opportunity of reading it to the House. I am convinced that it is not the Wesleyan Methodist body alone who hold these views regarding the Bill. I do not believe those sentiments are confined to the Free Churches; I am convinced that there are many members of the Church of England, and many supporters of the Government who will receive a real shock when they realise the attitude taken by the Government on this great moral issue, and their indifference to the necessity of making any effort to fight against an increase of gambling, thinking it more important to make use of gambling as a means of making up for the deficiencies of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

We are now very near the end of the consideration of this Bill. It is four months since we had the Second Reading, and we had a long discussion in Committee. When I look round the House, it seems to me that we have the same state of things here as we had in Committee. The supporters of the Bill in Committee were entirely silent, except when they moved the Closure, and here they are not only silent but absent. Yet this is the great popular Measure on which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has expended so much eulogy, the Bill which is going to effect the cleansing of the rascality of the turf. We know that that was not the object with which the Bill was introduced. I agree with what the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden) has said. I cannot doubt that this Bill owes its genesis to the Betting Duty and to the failure of the Betting Duty. We should never have heard of this great cleansing instrument if the Chancellor of the Exchequer had got his money. It was never thought of as a reform of the Turf—that was never mentioned; it is merely an afterthought to cover up the deficiencies of the Betting Duty.

I have spoken so often that I have no doubt bored my fellow Members, but may I just give a few reasons why I object to this Bill? The first reason is that it is, in the strongest sense of the word, a privilege, a Bill passed for the benefit of the individual. The racing public is drawn chiefly from the wealthy and leisured classes. I do not deny that great popular events such as the Derby and the St. Leger do attract large crowds, but the person who supports racing is the man or woman who, week after week, can spend three, four or five days a week racing, and it is quite obvious that the busy man or woman cannot do that. Here we are giving a privilege to one class, for the law about betting houses, the law which prevails otherwise in the country, is to be abolished in favour of one class. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, who is the real author of the Bill, has made it quite clear that the same privilege is not to be granted to the humbler followers of greyhound racing. These are people who cannot afford to spend all the week in racing, but go to greyhound racing in the evening, and he expressly stated that this privilege, this breach of the Statute law, was to be confined to the wealthy and highly-placed classes and was not to be extended to more humble persons. I do not belong to that school of political thought. I do not believe in privilege. I do not believe in special class legislation. That is my first objection.

My second objection is a quite different, and perhaps a smaller, one. I know that it is unpopular to defend bookmakers, but, after all, a bookmaker is entitled to justice. We had a very great fight upstairs to obtain the smallest justice for bookmakers. Over and over again we were told that the object of the Bill was to hold the balance level between the totalisator on the one side and the bookmaker on the other. There was plenty of talk of that description, but it was very difficult, and it needed a great deal of pressure, to transfer that talk into the Clauses of the Bill. The proceeds of the deduction made from the totalisator money will largely go to the benefit of the people who run racing, and since it will be to their interests to force as much money as they can through the totalisator, I think it is incumbent on the House to see that justice is done. I do not think that justice has been done. I think the charge we made this evening in respect of the bookmaker of five times the ordinary admission fee is too high; and I am not at all easy over the fact that we hand over the bookmaker who, after all, is a citizen and pays taxes, and is entitled to justice, to people whose interests lie in the opposite direction.

I come to what is perhaps a more important objection. The constitution of the Betting Control Board gives a majority to people who are interested in racing, and we know that a part of the profits of the totalisator are to be employed in increasing the stake money. I do not impute any evil to the owners of horses or to the Jockey Club, but I do say that no man ought to be put in a position where his interests conflict with his duty. It is not the right thing to put a man in that position, but it is to the advantage of the racing interests represented upon the Board to increase as much as they can the stakes for which the horses run and thereby to increase their own profits. And that brings me to this point. The Government have chosen to appoint representatives upon the Betting Control Board. Well, there may be a case for that, but if there is a case for it surely they ought to have a majority on the Board. Look at the position. There are to be five Government representatives, and they will find on the Board a majority whom they cannot control and whose interests will be quite different from their own. It seems to me that that is a most undignified and improper position in which to put the representatives of the Government, who seem to have been placed on the Board as a sort of soothing syrup to the public. The public believe that, with Government representatives on the Board of Control, all will be well, but, as a matter of fact, we know that the Government representatives will be very nearly powerless. I do not like the uncontrolled power which is given by this Bill to the Jockey Club, and I object much more to the Government control of betting, but if we are to have the Government associated with betting, much as I dislike it, I would rather see a majority of Government representatives on the Board.

The question as to whether the totalisator will be successful or not has been raised. I believe that it will be successful in this sense. All over the world it has been found to be a very good moneymaking machine. It makes money, because it attracts the betting classes, and it attracts people who have not bet before. That is a well-known fact. Whether you take the experience of our Dominions or any other country, the tendency has always been to increase betting by proposals of the kind contained in this Bill, and of course by increasing betting you will provide an increased revenue for the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I view with profound repugnance what the Government are doing in this Bill. I do not believe the Government realise, and I am sure the Home Secretary does not realise, what is being done. The Home Secretary has many good qualities, and perhaps one of his good qualities is an exceptional loyalty to his rather over-bearing colleague. Possibly, he has been carried too far. I would like to remind the Home Secretary that there is such a thing as standing for what you believe to be right as well as loyalty to your colleagues, and, from what I know of the Home Secretary, I am inclined to think that in heart he must dislike this Bill every bit as much as I do.

I told the House last night, although hon. Members opposite did not agree with me, that I was convinced that the Government stood very high in the estimation of the people of this country. I believe the present Government have carried out some big performances which have done them great credit, but, when the history of the present Government is summed up, there must be a writing off from its creditable record, and that writing off will be the passing of this Bill. Perhaps hon. Members on this side of the House may think that I am taking a prejudiced view of this Measure. I quite agree that the country has not yet shown that it does not like this Bill, but, unless I am very much mistaken, it will show its dislike before very long in an unmistakable fashion. I believe the movement which will arise against this Bill, although it may be slow, will be a very strong one, and I believe that a great many more Members of my own party object to this Bill than appears to be the case at first sight.

Notice taken that 40 Members were not present; House counted, and 40 Members being present

Many more members of the Conservative party object to this Bill than might appear from the object of speeches which have been made against it. I will take one test. If anyone will look at the Division List to-day and notice the number of Conservative members who voted for this Measure, and then compare it with the number of Conservatives who usually vote for Government Bills they will see a very big difference. I want to say a few words about the methods by which this Bill was passed through Committee. This Measure was introduced as a comparatively harmless Bill, and, as soon as it got upstairs in Committee, it was completely changed. In Committee, we had a procedure adopted which is quite unheard of and quite new in regard to a private Member's Bill. The Committee sat until all hours of the night, and in one case we sat after the House had adjourned. I do not say that that is contrary to the Standing Orders. The Closure was frequently moved, but the Chairman frequently refused to accept it. The Committee sat for very long hours and also sat after the House had adjourned.

The Bill was carried through by a kind of spirit and temper which is very unusual on a private Member's Bill. It was some time before we could get any explanation from the promoters of the Bill. I do not make the same charge against the Government representatives, because they were always most courteous, but the promoters always refused to give any explanation. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] Yes, they always refused to give information until they were forced. Altogether it was carried in a way that I have never known a private Member's Bill to be carried through. It started by being a small and reasonable Measure, and it grew until now it is the Bill that we see here. I say with very great feeling that it will be extremely unpopular in the country. I believe that the Government have achieved the almost impossible feat of bringing together two contradictory trends of opinion which both object to this Bill. But far beyond the question of the popularity of the Government and the electoral defects of the Bill, I object to the fact that the Conservative party should be the first to come forward and take a partnership in a betting business. I do not believe that any revenue is worth that discredit which will be cast on our party, and, if there were any chance of the Bill being rejected, I should welcome it.

No Bill that has arrived at the position of Third Reading in this House could give me greater pleasure to support than this one. The hon. and gallant Member for Ripon (Major Hills) has told us what he considers were the improper methods in Committee and the failure to get information from the promoters of the Bill, but I do not hesitate to say that it would be quite impossible to exaggerate the extent of the torrent of futilities that poured from the opponents of the Bill. It was impossible to produce arguments in reply to futilities that were not worth replying to. I look on this Bill as coming at the end of a long series of years of failure to face the facts of the situation. We have arrived, I am glad to say, at the position of introducing the totalisator into this country, which I do not hesitate to say will have an enormously good effect in cleaning and controlling the undoubted vice of betting. I am not a race-goer, nor do I bet. In fact, the last experience I had of a racecourse was to be welshed twice on one race. That takes some doing. Therefore, I can give some advice to those hon. Members who say that they do not go to races. Let me warn them never to take long odds on the favourite in the first race, because, as sure as fate, they will be welshed.

There was one point in the Bill about which I felt regretful. I had an Amendment on the Paper which was not accepted, but which had reference to the penalties for betting on approved racecourses. As the House knows, the Bill does provide certain penalties in regard to betting on approved racecourses, but only in so far as concerns the individual who accepts a bet from young persons of 17 or under. My feeling is very strong, that when a transaction of that kind takes place—and I feel pretty confident that most Members of the Opposition will agree with me on this—there is actually on the racecourse at that moment only one person who knows that an offence has been committed. and that is the person in question under the age of 17. I feel very strongly that if betting is as bad as it is described—and I agree it is so—the individual who is under the age of 17 should certainly be made to suffer some form of penalty. I trust that when the Juvenile Offenders Bill, which is, I believe, in prospect some time in the future, comes on, we shall see that that anomaly is put right. After all, the Government have made it very clear in Committee that they agree with the point of view that I have just expressed, and, if I may, I would like to quote what the Solicitor-General for Scotland said. He said this: accepts a bet, but also the young person and the person who incites him, because I think it will be agreed that there are plenty of evil wishers—not well-wishers—of the totalisator who can easily take the opportunity of inciting a young person of 17 or under to go and place a bet and thereby get the totalisator into disrepute. I think it is bad legislation that that should come about.

A good deal has been said about the wickedness of all betting. As I said earlier, I feel quite confident that the effect of this is going to be to clean up and control what is undoubtedly a vice. I think it is fair to take the analogy of liquor. If there were no control of liquor and no taxing, we should have infinitely worse liquor than we have to-day. I am not a prohibitionist or anything like it, but I do not hesitate to say that the effect of taxation and control has been not only to purify liquor but to reduce the amount which is drunk at the present time.

And to make it dearer perhaps, but also to make less liquor drunk. [An HON. MEMBER: "What are the odds?"]. As far as odds are concerned, time will undoubtedly prove with the greatest clearness that the totalisator is going to give better odds than ever the bookmakers did. Finally, something has been said on the subject of nationalising the vice of betting. Although I am against nationalisation as put forward by the Opposition, I have no hesitation in saying that this form of nationalisation, if you like to call it so, is going to be for the good of the public and for the good of one of the greatest, if not the greatest, sport that we have in this country. Every man who puts his money on by means of the totalisator will know that not only is he providing something towards the social services of this country, but he is also improving his own prospects of comfort at race meetings and also taking a part in a great co-operative enterprise for the improvement of a great national sport.

If the hon. and gallant Member for Lewes (Rear-Admiral Beamish) believes out and out in the last argument that he put before the House, namely, that., because it is possible for a number of people to put their money into the totalisator, they will, in future, feel that they are able to take part in a great co-operative enterprise in the State, perhaps he would extend that argument to the burglar, because, by burgling wealth and spending that wealth in the way of Income Tax, he, too, is doing something that, in the long run, contributes to the co-operative benefit of the community.

I hope that the hon. Member does not impute to me the suggestion that a person who uses the totalisator is comparable with a burglar.

I make that suggestion. If the hon. and gallant Member is not satisfied with that argument, I suppose he would be satisfied with the further simile that where, as is the case in certain States, houses of ill fame are licensed, and, through the licences, pay contributions to the State, those who use such institutions can, therefore, feel satisfaction because they are taking part in a co-operative community. That type of argument has been too frequently used during these Debates, and it shows the position to which Members of the Conservative party have been brought by the introduction of this Measure. I am very glad indeed to have heard tonight the speech of the hon. Lady the Member for St. Ives (Mrs. Runciman), and particularly the telegram that she was able to read. I do not suppose that my feelings were shared by the Under-Secretary for the Home Office, because he proudly told us last night that, in the great industrial area—

There is no necessity for the hon. and gallant Gentleman to be rude in hit interruptions. He has quite a nice superior, and, if he would come a little nearer to him, it would make it possible to discuss the matter with less heat. If he does not like the word "proudly," I will say that he told us last night that he had not heard, from the great industrial Merseyside area in which his constituency is situated, of any protest whatever against this Bill. He heard it to-night, for the Wesleyan Annual Conference is meeting in this same Merseyside area, and I know Wesleyan ministers in his constituency, one of whom, particularly, is a good friend of mine, who, I am quite sure, have to-day enthusiastically supported the resolution that the hon. Lady read. I say that I am glad to have heard that resolution, because I have the feeling that all along the Churches have been badly misled about the business with which we are now dealing, and badly misled by design.

This Bill was, as we all know, introduced in the first place as a private Member's Bill, and during its earlier stages the Churches were not awake to the fact that the Government had a hand in it. The newspaper reports, I am sorry to say, until quite recently, hardly brought home to the public the nature of the great State institution that has been set up as a result of the Government's interference in connection with this Measure. I am sure now that not only the Wesleyan Conference, but other Church conferences and moral forces in the country, when they realise that we have a Betting Board which includes, not only State representatives, but direct representatives of betting organisations, will protest likewise. I would repeat the point that my right hon. Friend made so emphatically during his speech, that not only have we Government Departments, but ordinary betting organisations like Tattersall's, represented on this Board, and when people realise the position to which we have come, namely, that this Board is to report annually to the Secretary of State, that the Secretary of State is to lay the report on the Table of each House of Parliament, and that Parliament is to be responsible year by year for the work of these gamesters and tipsters, as I described them yesterday, I am pretty certain that the protests which to-day have come from the hon. and gallant Gentleman's constituency will be repeated a hundredfold in many other constituencies and my many other organisations.

I complain most vigorously in this matter about the way in which the money that the totalisator will produce is to be spent under the provisions of this Bill. It seems to be a mere after-thought that some of it is to go for the purposes of taxation, some for the purposes of charity, some for working expenses, and so on. In Sub-section (5) of Clause 3 all those things are in parenthesis. The principal sentence, apart from the parenthesis, is that it shall be the function of the Betting Board to use the money of the special fund that is to be created:

I urge that it is clearly laid down in this Bill, for the first time in the history of Parliament, that the State is to come in and set up a fund the purpose of which, as distinctly laid down in an Act of Parliament, is that of developing horse-racing, and throughout the whole of the discussion, both in this House and in the Committee upstairs, it has been admitted on every hand that horse-racing cannot be successfully carried on unless it be accompanied by betting. Therefore, as the statement of one of the main purposes of an Act of Parliament, we are arranging that in future the State shall throw its efforts into the creation of a Board and a fund whose main object is the carrying out of what everyone admits to be a great vice and to be the cause of much degradation and poverty and something that ought to be limited if we can possibly manage to limit it. There may be much in the argument we have heard in those long discussions that there is great difficulty in hammering out the right sort of legislation which will limit the influences of betting. I admit that there is much in that argument, but that is no ground for leaping to the opposite conclusion that, because you cannot limit a thing you know to be bad, you should deliberately step in to use the whole organisation of the State to develop that thing that you have admitted to be bad, and, that is exactly what the Bill is proceeding to do.

I was particularly glad to observe that the principal leading article in the "Manchester Guardian" this morning emphasised the point that we have been making, just as I am glad to see that some of the Churches are waking up to it. I am glad that there seems to be some awakening at last to the real purpose which the party opposite have had in foisting this Bill upon us. I agree with my right hon. Friend that when all this comes to be counted up by the community the people will realise that, when economically the conditions of the country were about as black as they have been during the whole period the Conservative Government have been in office, when the unemployment figures are mounting to a point beyond anything we have seen during the last three or four years, when the need of economising and saving and wiping out all processes of waste and immoral expenditure is greater than at any time in our history, this of all times should have been selected to bring in a Bill which is aimed definitely at encouraging wastefulness and squandering, which will make the value of money seem small to those who engage in this device, which, out of the bad habits we create, will produce in the long run conditions that will help further to undermine the industrial conditions which all of us say we want to rebuild. This is the time the Government have selected to bring in this Bill. In my judgment, it is the greatest shame of all the Bills that have been brought before us this year, and I believe that when Members who really have some concern for the moral needs of the community realise fully what they have done, they will hang their heads in shame, they will make no case out before the con- stituencies which have sent them here, and we shall get at last some new governing force which will undo the evil which the Government now perpetrates.

I would say nothing that would lead anyone to suppose I doubt the sincerity of hon. Members opposite when they oppose the Bill on moral grounds, but their sincerity would be increased if they backed it up by some policy and some Bill which would make betting a criminal offence, and stop it altogether. I am afraid this attitude of mind which says "We will not interfere with betting, but it is wrong to take money from it by taxation," is one which foreign countries would regard as rather hyprocritical, and when hon. Members opposite liken people who use the totalisator to burglars it is hardly complimentary to the French people. It seems to me whether the totalisator is going to increase or diminish betting depends very largely on how the Board of Control use their power. I should like to see betting decrease. I should not like to see the totalisator used as a method of encouraging betting, and I hope, although the Government have seen fit to place their representatives in a minority on the Board, they will see that at any rate the percentage charged is such that betting will not thereby be encouraged. I am inclined to believe that in the long run the totalisator will tend to decrease betting. Sooner or later, people will realise that four, six, eight, or even ten per cent. of their money is going away and can never return. They may win for a bit, but the longer they go on the more certain they are to lose their 6 per cent. or 8 per cent., and in the long run people who may have a gamble every now and again but do not go in for it regularly will see that it is simply pouring money away.

While I support the Bill and shall vote for the Third Reading, I should like to make my protest against the way in which it has been conducted from the start. I should like to make my protest against the lack of enthusiasm of the supporters of the Bill in its early stages. I was asked to vote for the Second Reading. I was told that it was doubtful whether there would be a majority, because many of the supporters of the Bill might be going to Cheltenham. I asked in my innocence why they would be going to Cheltenham, and I heard that they might be going racing. If the Bill is important from the race-goer's point of view, surely it was up to them to forego a day's racing to vote for the Second Reading. That decided me to take an extra day in my constituency, and not to come here. Then, again, I believe, for the benefit of the race-going Members of the House, the hour of meeting of the Committee upstairs was regulated so as to allow Members to visit Ascot. Once again racing was put in front of this precious Bill that the racing people seemed to think was important.

I am afraid the Opposition, in their obstruction to the Bill, are hardly to be congratulated. On the one evening that I was there listening to it, noise was more prominent than ingenuity, and the funny thing was that noise in that case was quite sufficient to defeat the supporters of the Bill, because it was impossible to take a vote properly. The supporters of the Bill were not able to raise their voices loud enough to say "Aye" or "No," and, though they claimed to have a majority for the Closure, they did not get it. Altogether the supporters of the Bill have not been very conspicuous for their enthusiasm for it. On the whole, I could not conscientiously, on moral grounds, object to the Bill for the reasons I have stated, but I hope the Government representatives will see to it, in their administration of the totalisator, that betting is decreased and not increased throughout the country.

The hon. Member for North Cornwall (Mr. A. M. Williams) has represented to us the attitude taken by Members on this side of the House as that of some ignorant foreigners. I hope that he will reflect how the suggestion that there is behind this Bill any idea of reducing the volume of betting may also be regarded by some ignorant foreigners. I would ask every hon. Member not to be guided in this matter by what foreigners may think but by their ordinary, plain British sense, and to turn their attention to the genesis and the history and the purpose of this Bill. When I come to the Bill itself, I am reminded of a Bill which was produced not so very long ago in this House of which a witty Irishman said it was conceived in Bedlam. This Bill seems to have been conceived in the Jockey Club, nursed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and drafted by someone who probably desires to remain anonymous. My right hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) has already pointed out the extraordinary complications and the extraordinary mess of the Clause which deals with the distribution of the fund—the lack of any definite giving of any authority to make the deductions out of that fund. There are other points, though I do not want to dwell upon matters of drafting. It is not made clear in the Bill what it is that is being legalised. The totalisator is defined as being "a contrivance for betting known as a totalisator or pari-mutuel." This will not instruct the Courts very much when they have to interpret these matters, because Judges invariably, as hon. Members know, adopt an attitude which would result in such a question as, "What is a totalisator?" even though they may have private sources of knowledge.

I call attention to these minor points of drafting only because they show the incredible haste with which this Bill was ushered into the world. Only a short year ago, what would the Home Secretary have said if anyone had told him that he would stand there advocating the Government control of betting and that he was to have his part in it? I think he would have replied with some of that vigorous language with which he so delights this House. How has it come about? Money is at the root of the whole evil. The Chancellor of the Exchequer some years ago saw a chance of getting money, and, ignoring all the warnings made from these Benches as to what would happen, started the matter by declaring that he was not going to make anything legal that was illegal before. After that declaration, we see what he has now done. Although he was warned by my right hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley of what would happen, he went on. The result has been that the Betting Duty was being collected from the people who were doing a legal thing and not from those who were doing an illegal thing. We are driven into illegal courses and irregularities. And so we have a dilemma for the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and it is at the critical moment that there come along the representatives of the Jockey Club with quite other aims and with an idea of mainly providing better prizes for horse races. But they do not come to him. They have a scheme and an idea, and just as the Chancellor of the Exchequer grabbed at the ideas of rating reform put forward by my predecessor in the representation of Middlesbrough (Mr. Trevelyan Thomson), he grabs at the new idea almost for the same reason that a, drowning man clutches at a straw.

10.0 p.m.

We find that the Government are to be committed to the control and management of what the only supporter of this Bill over the way has in truth described as a vice. An hon. Member said this was a vice and we must clean it up. It means that the Government have, in the first place, to collect the money through the Board and those who bet. The Government are interested in having the largest turnover in order that they may reap the largest possible profit. The Home Secretary finds himself in the position of being responsible for these things, and the best that can be said by him is that, "Here is a vice, and we are cleaning it up, and we are doing away with the bookmaker." I want to make this as clear as I can. If there is an evil of betting, and I believe there is, it is not the evil of rowdyism. Rowdyism is only an attendant circumstance. The evil does not lay in rowdyism—the right hon. Gentleman might be welshed twice during the same race—or upon people going home intoxicated, but in the economic consequences to many of the poorest of our people. The temptation to part with sums of money is strongest with those to whom money is scarcest, and there are ruined homes in consequence. That is the real evil, and to clean up the matter as suggested is not to do a national service but to do the greatest national disservice that can be imagined.

It has been levelled at us as a taunt that we represent an immoral combination of bookmaker and Nonconformist conscience. Representatives of the Government think that by their most recent action they have squared the bookmaker. They are mistaken. They have not squared the Nonconformist conscience. That represents the old Puritan spirit which is still alive in this country. That spirit has never been challenged by any Parliament without bitter regret to those who issued the challenge. That challenge is going to be taken up now, and in the course of time if it scatters their ranks, then, in the words of the greatest Puritan of them all who once sat in this House as Member for Huntingdon, "Then they will go and not a dog will bark at their going."

I am not an expert on the subject of betting or on horse racing, but I am an expert on the subject of the Nonconformist conscience. I know all about it that there is to be known. I was brought up in that atmosphere, and I am proud of it. I sat upstairs day after day on the Standing Committee, enduring the most horrible torture, and I said nothing. I sat by and admired my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Abingdon (Major Glyn), a perfect saint of patience. I have never seen anything like it. Let us come to a common sense view of this matter. What is all this talk about of which we have heard so much? When this Bill was brought in I voted in favour of it. Why? Because the Exchequer requires filling as far as we can do it. There are a lot of burdened taxpayers, groaning under heavy Income Tax, many who have families to bring up. But the needs of the Exchequer must be supplied. On the other hand there are numbers of people who ex hypothesi have lots of money to spare. The man who bets who has not the money to spare and gambles with money needed for his family, is a criminal morally of the worst type. The man who stakes money that he cannot afford in betting deserves the severest censure, but there are numbers of people who think that betting on horses is an amusement, and why on earth should they not pay something to the State when they have so much money to spare that they can afford to lose it.

But they take it from those who cannot afford to lose it. The man who thinks he is able to afford betting, takes money from the man who is losing, and is unable to afford the loss.

The man who bets and has not the money to spare is a criminal morally, for he is taking money that ought to be used for necessaries, it may be even for his children's food. But I am talking of the sporting man who says, "I like my little flutter." I say to him, "By all means if you like it and can afford it, have your flutter, but you ought to pay something for it." One of the very best taxes that was ever devised was the Betting Duty, because it is really taking something from those who have money to spare. That is why I voted for it. Every day, every speech that I heard when this Bill was in Committee made me turn from being a moderate supporter to being an enthusiastic supporter of the Bill. When I come to look at the beauties of the Bill they really raise our admiration. After finding something for the State that is to help the burdened taxpayers, something may be devoted to some excellent charities. I know it will not be a very large sum. But that is the case with many people's income—the share of charity is not large. I would not give much for what these betting men would give to charity if they do not put it through the tote. The little encouragement given by the tote will turn a portion of their admitted superfluity into useful channels. Even a half voluntary benevolence is better than none.

Then there is another thing. Of horse racing I know next to nothing, but I do know that the breeding of high class horses and cattle is of great value to this country and out of the "tote fund" money will be used to encourage this useful industry. When we look at the question as a matter of common sense, and when we realise that the money is coming out of the pockets of those who can, ex hypothesi, afford to, and who pay voluntarily, surely we must acknowledge that in the highest grounds this is a good Bill. I will not accuse people who bet of wishing simply to take other people's money for nothing. They call it sport I believe. Why should they not pay just a little moderate taxation for this luxury? I am sorry that Clause 4 has not been properly discussed. We all recognise that the young require some protection against those who would induce them to bet. They generally have no money to bet with. Certainly they should be protected even if they have. The fourth Clause which had this object in view is an astonishing piece of work. It has a very good object, and might well be put into better shape in another place. It would have been much better to extend the age of protection to 19. The year between 17 and 18 is really a critical time and I am in favour of our doing everything we can to protect our young people. As to our older people, let them come in if they will and pay their money if they can afford it, and the half loaf which I have mentioned will be much better than nothing. There is good reason also to believe that racecourses will be better conducted under the responsible Board created by the Bill.

We have now arrived at a calm and somewhat happier atmosphere compared with that which we suffered from upstairs, and in conclusion I wish to add my words of heartiest congratulation to the hon. and gallant Member for Abingdon on the success of the efforts of himself and his friends. I am not a betting man, but I would gladly lay money on the hon. and gallant Member for Abingdon winning over any course he enters for. I would lay odds that by his staying power and patience he would win in most contests, and I congratulate him on the result of his work in this matter, and I wish the Bill a rapid and happy passage through the tranquil atmosphere of another place.

As a rule the voice of the Combined Universities is one to which we can listen with interest, particularly when that voice is the voice of one who has passed so much of his life in moulding the character of young people and who has not been afraid to lay before the people of Britain a plan by which they might rebuild Britain. It has, therefore, been a surprise to find to-night that the potential architect of the new Britain, which is to be not an economic but a moral Utopia of the rising generation, should in his plan find so prominent and so honoured a place for a mechanical instrument which entices youth to fix their joy and sorrow upon an event which they cannot control.

The whole theory of betting is that one should obtain more money than one puts in, and the whole effect of it is to cause the mind to treat success and failure as resulting, not from one's own initiative and energy, but from the chance outcome of an event over which he has no con- trol. That, when I was in the University, at the feet of one as eminent as the hon. and learned Member for the combined English Universities (Sir A. Hopkinson) who has just spoken, was looked upon as the most destructive force in the life and the building of character of youth, for it produces a mentality, of which the hon. and learned Member must be perfectly aware, in which the man who wins, by a chance which he cannot control, becomes a very big fellow in his own estimation, because he has won, and when he loses takes on the mentality of a victim, as one against whom fate is much harder than it is against others. That is no basis upon which to rebuild Britain.

Nor is this quite so trifling a matter as the hon. and learned Member has so genially and so ingenuously expressed it. This is a matter of principle. It has always been the policy of this country not to recognise by the nation those things which are considered vicious when done by the individual. It is no argument for any hon. Member to say that the French people, the Italian people, the Spanish people look upon us as hypocrites because we pretend to forbid or we do forbid things which actually take place. I know that they prefer a different system. I know that they prefer to have their streets covered with bills about lotteries; that they prefer to have roulette tables in all their shops; that they prefer to have little white horses in every tobacconist shop and every restaurant; that they prefer to have the maison tolerée , which would not be allowed for one second in this country. I am not arguing that the British people should take their practices from other nations, which have different traditions, and I am not at all agreeing to tin proposition that because evil things exist in individuals, the nation should exercise over those things a sort of protective control.

If the hon. and learned Member wants the Chancellor of the Exchequer to obtain more funds from the follies of people; if he thinks it a good thing that the revenues of this country should come, not from people knowing what they pay, but should come from the very vices and follies which he himself condemns; if he thinks that, why does he not support the editor of a new newspaper which has been published, in his brilliant idea of a great national lottery in order to remove the encumbrance of the National Debt? Why does he not go to the Home Secretary who has now so far departed from grace that he may be expected to do anything that can get money for the State—and say to him: "We have talked a good deal about youth. We have made a good many appeals to parents about high ideals and about youth fructifying into glorious maturity. We will now cut out all that rot. Let us get down to the money basis. Let us remove a little of the burden from our shoulders by taking these mugs and fools who do not know how to look after the little bit of money that they have got, and let us direct their absurd, foolish and immoral operations into a certain channel, whereby we can obtain a portion of the funds which they lose by their folly."

What a glorious programme for the Members of the Conservative party! What a glorious programme for the old Tory party that has always stood for definite, regularised taxation for definite purposes, and that the people should understand when they pay their taxes that they are paying for a definite purpose, and should be able to follow their taxes right through to the end. What a glorious thing for the Conservative party to go to Manchester and to Glasgow and say to the men and the women there, "You do not happen to have a racecourse in your midst; but if only you will institute a racecourse in your midst, you will have the protection of State approval upon a certain form of betting and gambling. You can organise a great racecourse. You can then gather all your youth together, up to the age of 17, and they will look at the big men putting their money into the totalisator. When these youths become 17, they will be able to emulate the big men. They will become big men themselves by gambling their shillings and sixpences, and by that way you will be able to contribute to the funds of the State and earn the inestimable approval of that financial giant, the Chancellor of the Exchequer." That is what we are to look forward to. Why has this Bill been introduced? It has been introduced for the purposes of obtaining money; and for no other reason. It has been introduced, and is supported by the Conservative Government and the Home Secre- tary, for the purpose of getting the Chancellor of the Exchequer out of the financial difficulty he is in owing to the failure of his Betting Tax. When the Chancellor of the Exchequer was speaking in this House in regard to the moral aspect of legalising betting he made this very specific point. He said there was no argument on the moral question at all: Act of 1853 you can institute on a racecourse and its surroundings every form of betting and gambling in separate little places and booths which were in existence before 1853. The answer is "That cannot be!" and if it were then the approval would be taken away. By whom? Who is it that is to have the control? It is to be in the hands of the Secretary of State for the Home Department. The Secretary of State for Scotland, the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but with three members from the Jockey Club, two from the National Hunt Committee, one from the Racecourse Association and one from the Committee of Tattersalls. Is any committee composed of members of those organisations going to pass a resolution to exclude a racecourse—to wipe it out? I am sure it is not.

Once the totalisator is established, they are going to have all the proceeds. It does not say in the Bill how those proceeds are to be ascertained. It does not say what deductions are to be made for expenses, or how the distribution is to be made, but there is one thing certain, and that is that the Jockey Club and racehorse owners and others concerned are going to obtain a substantial portion of it. Is it likely that they, having such a financial interest, are going to disqualify a racecourse? Not at all. Is it likely that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if he finds, what other nations have found, that the revenue increases year by year, is going to wipe out a racecourse? No, Sir. The Bill begins by a declaration which revives in this country all the abuses and degradation which characterised racing and betting before 1853, and for that reason, if for no other, the Bill ought not to be passed. But for other reasons, of which the Home Secretary is as well aware as any man in this House, anything which tends to give an atmosphere of respectability to a vice which is to-day sucking the manhood and womanhood from hundreds and thousands of men and women in the cities, who never saw a racecourse and never saw a racehorse——[Hon. MEMBERS: "They will not see the totalisator!"] I accept the correction at once, but the institution of the totalisator on the racecourse is giving an atmosphere of respectability to the whole proceeding of betting, and, if you license one department of betting, then, of course, you are putting the cloak of State approval upon a certain section of betting. Do you think that those who live in large cities and who cannot use the totalisator, are going to be restricted in their operations in illegal betting by the fact that you only sanction that which is open to the rich?

Will the hon. Member and his party follow that argument to its logical conclusion; and will they pledge themselves, if and when returned to power, to prohibit betting of any kind at a racecourse?

I can only answer a question addressed to me, with regard to the policy of my party, in the words of the aged actor who was asked for change of a sovereign, and who said, "I thank you for the compliment." I am quite unable to speak for my party. I cannot speak for my party, but I can speak for the people who put the party here.

I do not want the hon. Member to misunderstand me. What I mean is, will he pledge himself at the next Election to say that he will vote for the prohibition of betting altogether?

One is quite accustomed to being heckled at public meetings, and I have been heckled upon this subject frequently, and my answer has never admitted of any dubiety. In all ways and in every way, for rich and poor alike, I would prohibit any form of gambling upon horse-racing, upon lotteries, or in any other manner, because I believe that those who take up the study of politics and enter public life should carry with them, not the vices of the few, but the general instinct for righteousness that has built up this nation; and I believe that one of the greatest obstacles to the development of the moral qualities of the people of this country is this habit and vice of engaging in a speculation on the racecourse, on trifling details of daily life, and on the Stock Exchange, and thereby leaving the question of joy and sorrow to the outcome of an event which they cannot control, and the result of which may bring, not only mental destruction to them, but moral and physical hurt to those who are dependent upon them. It is not a good thing for any party to raise as its banner when going to the people of this country: "We are going to make respectable what our fathers have taught us was dishonourable."

I have listened with considerable interest but a great deal of disappointment to the hon. Member for Paisley (Mr. R. Mitchell), who generally speaks with so much intelligence in this House and always has its ear, but to-night he has shown in his speech that he has entirely lost sight of the point of this Bill. I am going to look at this Bill, for a few moments only, purely from the moral point of view. Betting on horse racing is a national custom, but it is legal. It was made legal by the Act of 1853, and we cannot repeal that Act. Starting from that point, what can we do, if betting is an evil, as I admit it is when carried to an extreme and when people who cannot afford the money bet and lose it? We can control that betting. Is it controlled to-day? We know that it is not controlled at all. We know that any man who has a few coppers and a few nails can put them in a bag, can go to a racecourse, can rattle those nails, and can fill his bag with money, and then disappear during a race; and we know that the worst thing that can happen to him is that an unfortunate victim may run after him and try to catch him and duck him in a pond. Thousands of men defraud hundreds of innocent people every day on the racecourse. That, we know, exists to-day, and we can deal with that——

That is what I am going to say. Anyone who has been to the Derby has seen the tens of thousands of bookmakers, some of them insolvent before they go there, utterly out of any control except that of a policeman who may not be on the spot when required.

That is what goes on at the present time, and we cannot stop it. This Bill is for one purpose, and one purpose only, and that is to give us some control by a Board, on which the Government of the day are represented.

If the hon. and gallant Member's argument is that this is going to destroy this bookmaking, how does he reconcile that with Clause 3, Sub-section (2), which, for the first time, makes it compulsory that there shall be provision made upon a racecourse for bookmakers to carry on their business?

The hon. Member interrupted me before I got to the point. I was speaking about the bookmakers who attend the racecourses without money, or very little money, speculating on making a book. This totalisator, with a Board of Control, cannot shout the odds, cannot do what the hon. Member for Paisley said was done to the young in inducing them to put their money on a horse. That is the very thing the totalisator cannot do. It is silent. You have to find it, you have to go to it, and then you can put your money on, whereas the bookmaker can send out, and does send out touts all round to induce people to come and bet, and he shouts what are not the real odds at all. This Bill will establish a machine which is silent, which gives the real odds, and which always pays. That machine will displace those tens of thousands of fraudulent bookmakers, and leave only those bookmakers which the Bill mentions, those who pay their licences, who are honest, and who give somewhere about the right odds and remain on the racecourse.

Let us come to the moral point of view. If we really think that betting is an evil, is it not better to control that evil, and lessen it, and to have it under the control of the Government of the day, than to have it as it is now under practically no control at all except that of the police? If we make money out of it for the people, surely that is an advantage to the people. It is better to take some of that money from the people who can afford to put it into the machine, than to give the whole of it to the people who take their winnings. That is not immoral in any form. I feel that this Bill will be the first step towards regulating and controlling betting on racecourses. I believe that the first step is a moral step, and that it will lessen the evil, and that if ever this country wants to abolish betting, abolish the bookmaker, and abolish gambling, this will be looked upon as the first step towards it.

I have followed the progress of this Measure from the first statement made by the Chancellor in his Budget speech, and I do not think that I have lost five minutes of all the time that has been spent on it. I want to say before we part with the Bill that I regard this as the closing of one of the most sordid chapters in political history. I have no hesitation in believing that the House of Commons is accepting a responsibility, and all Members of all parties who vote for the Bill are accepting a responsibility which they and their children will regret later on. I wish that the hon. and learned Member for the Combined English Universities (Sir A. Hopkinson) were in his place, because there has been nothing more sad in the progress of this Bill than the speech which the hon. Member delivered this evening. He has been a Vice-Chancellor of Manchester University, and I am as sure as I am standing here to-night, that in that capacity he would not have delivered the speech that he delivered to-night. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?"] Because all the teaching that is given in the Universities of the land, so far as I know—and I have had the honour of having a son graduate in Manchester University—is against gambling of all kinds.

Is it not a fact that every civilised country in the world has established a totalisator, and not one has gone back, and that the only country that has not established it is the United States, which has not established it only because it is so well off that it does not need the money?

Let us follow the argument of the hon. and learned Gentleman. He is, I understand, a learned lawyer. Let us see what he means by his statement. He said that every civilised country in the world except the United States has the totalisator. That is to say, until we establish the totalisator in this country, we are not a civilised country. [ Interruption. ] Yes. I repeat that. The establishment of the totalisator will tend to demoralise the people of this country. An hon. Member opposite, who I am sorry is not in his place at the moment, used the argument, which has been employed over and over again, that the totalisator will not increase betting in this country. The hon. and learned Member for East Grinstead (Sir H. Cautley) was chairman of the Select Committee on Betting in 1923, and, although I am quoting from memory, I think I am right in saying that he had to admit, on the evidence submitted from countries where the totalisator exists, that it has meant an increase in betting in almost every country where it has been established.

I cannot quite charge my memory, but the hon. Member is correct to this extent, that there was some evidence that the totalisator had encouraged betting, but not generally.

Something has just been put into my hands which I would like to read:

"Singularly enough, similar evidence was given to the Select Committee of the House of Commons on the Betting Duty in 1923. The Committee as such did not pronounce a judgment, but the Chairman "—

that is, the hon. and learned Member for East Grinstead—

"in his draft Report, while expressing his personal opinion that the totalisator should be legalised because it was a fair system, admitted that the evidence showed (1) that it had proved an actual inducement to many people, especially women, (2) that it had led to the growth of illicit betting in offices and streets, (3) that it had been impossible to confine betting to the totalisator and thus prevent betting away from the course."

I accept the hon. and learned Member's statement about this Bill to-night. I have dealt with the speech of the hon. and learned Member who was twice Chancellor of the University of Manchester. Let me now come to the attitude of the Home Secretary, who is an ornament of the Church of England Temperance Society, and has done good work in that direction. That society was very largely responsible, in London, in particular, for the probation officers who have been doing their level best to rescue people who have committed offences against the law. Is it not an anomaly, is it not playing a dual part, a Jekyll and Hyde part, for the right hon. Gentleman to be on the one hand doing all he can, as I gladly admit, in the direction I have indicated, and, on the other hand, to be supporting a Measure which according to the evidence produced before the Select Committee will lead to an extension of betting through the establishment of the totalisator? I must be quite frank. I may be regarded as a Puritan, but I confess that I view this problem in the light of the lessons I learned from the Old Book. If the teaching of the Old Book was wrong in my case, I would like the right hon. Gentleman, who is going to appoint the Chairman of this Betting Control Board, to tell me where betting and the partnership of the State in betting gets any sanction in either the New Testament or the Old Testament?

I object to the passing of this Bill because of the arguments which I have already adduced. I am very sorry that the Home Office is going to appoint the Chairman of the Betting Control Board, and I regret that that Board is going to determine under this Bill where, when and how offences are going to be committed under the Betting Act of 1853. You are giving power to this Board to determine which shall be approved racecourses and which shall not be approved and they will be able to determine at the same time whether the Act of 1853 shall apply and whether it shall not apply. If you have the Act of 1853 applied to 200 racecourses in this country when the Betting Control Board approves 10 of them it determines at once whether the Act of 1853 shall continue to apply or not. That is giving an enormous power to a body like that.

I have looked up the history of gambling and betting, and so far as I have been able to find out from the best authority in the land this is the first occasion in the history of the last five or six centuries that any Government has done anything whatsoever to encourage betting. I think the present Government will go down in the long history of the Mother of Parliaments as having done an act which is without precedent in the history of this country. For these reasons I trust the House of Commons will accept the responsibility, if we pass this Bill, of knowing exactly what it is doing because in passing this Measure I am sure that we are encouraging and extending betting, and bringing about the degradation of thousands of our people and destroying the fibre of our nation.

I have sat through many Debates in this House, but I do not know that I have ever sat through a more unfair Debate than this one. A great deal of the Debate seems to have centred around my unfortunate personality. The hon. Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Rhys Davies) has thought fit to conclude that because I hold some idea similar to his own with regard to temperance and moral evils I am bound to take the same view as he does with regard to matters which have in no degree at all an immoral side. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden) who opened the Debate was even more unfair to myself personally than the hon. Member for Westhoughton. Those who listened to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley will agree with me when I say that in order to beat the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who was the real enemy he was aiming at, he made some very uncalled-for remarks about myself. However, my character is not in question in regard to this Debate. The matter, as far as I, as Home Secretary, am concerned, is a very simple one. The House some few weeks ago decided to give a Second Reading to a Bill dealing with the installation of the totalisator——[An HON. MEMBER: "Not this Bill."] I said with a Bill dealing with the installation of the totalisator.

Subsequently when that Bill got in Committee it was quite obvious that it, like practically every Bill dealing with matters affecting the subjects of the King in their home relationships, was bound to be dealt with by the Home Office. It came before me, and, after consultation with my legal advisers, I came to one definite conclusion, namely, that the Bill in its then form could not be allowed to go through the House of Commons without the strongest protest from myself, as Home Secretary, and for a very plain and simple reason. I explained it the other day, and I would like for a moment to explain it again. As the Bill stood, it was left to an irresponsible body, the Jockey Club, to decide, by approving a racecourse, that what should be applied to one racecourse should not be applied to another, that is to say, if they approved a racecourse for the installation of a totalisator, by doing so all the provisions of the Betting Act, 1853, and the Vagrancy Act, and so on, would not apply to that particular racecourse. I was bound, as a Minister of the Crown, to approach the promoters of the Bill and say, "I cannot, as far as I am concerned, permit the House of Commons without a protest to pass a Bill giving that power to an irresponsible body—even to so highly respectable a body as the Jockey Club."

I therefore sent for them and the hon. and gallant Member who was the promoter of the Bill and said, "There must be an alteration of the Bill, and the only possible way which will enable me conscientiously to support the Bill will be to say that there must be a statutory body formed by Parliament, and to that body alone must be given the power to decide what racecourses should have the totalisator and what racecourses should be exempt from the Act of 1853, and, therefore, on what racecourses betting should be legal or should be illegal." That was the origin of the long series of Amendments which resulted in the lengthening of the Bill as it appears before the House. Those Amendments were accepted after a good deal of discussion and a certain amount of opposition by the promoters of the Bill. They went before the Committee upstairs. The Committee sat for a large number of days. I was not able to go, but my hon. and gallant Friend the Under-Secretary was there, and day after day, until in the end the Bill came out of Committee in such a form as I, as Home Secretary, could advise the House of Commons that they could permit this alteration in the law to be made. A statutory body was to be formed, and when we had that statutory body I was to have the duty of appointing its chairman.

I remember perfectly well the earlier series of Amendments in the Committee stage when the first proposal was that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture should be the Minister who should appoint the chairman and have more or less the responsibility for the Betting Control Board. What happened? I think it was my hon. Friend the Member for Barnstaple (Sir B. Peto) who put down an Amendment that it should be the Home Secretary, and Members of the Labour party also put down an Amendment that not the Minister of Agriculture, but the Home Secretary, should be responsible for this Board. It was not of my seeking that this honour was thrown upon me, but it was very largely by the hon. Gentleman On the other side. Yet every kind of insinuation has been hurled at me to-day in regard to the chairman whom the House has authorised me to appoint. I have been asked, "Have you already made terms with the Jockey Club as to the man you are going to appoint? Are you going to confer with them about the appointment? Will you pledge your word that you will not appoint a nominee of the Jockey Club or the Hunt Committee to the chairmanship of this Board?" Had they no more respect for the honour of a Minister of the Crown than to ask questions of that kind? Right hon. Gentlemen opposite have held the various offices which we on this side now hold, and they know what the position of a Minister of the Crown is I should never have thought of asking them whether they would give an undertaking that they would not appoint an improper person——

But they had many other things to do with regard to appointments, and they had, at any 'rate while they were Ministers of the Crown, the confidence of the Members of this House that they would not make improper appointments. That is the suggestion which has been made with regard to myself. The House has left the appointment of the chairman to myself. I shall make that appointment in my own way, and I shall appoint the man whom I think is the best. I say perfectly frankly that I have no one in my mind; I shall have to find the man after the Bill has passed through both Houses of Parliament.

We are attacked; further, because we have put representatives of Government Departments on this Control Board. If, however, you admit the existence of the Control Board, you must have representatives of the Government upon it. We were told, in the impassioned speech of the hon. Member for Westhoughton, that we are participating in crime, that we are really making the Government, as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley said, the largest "bookie" in. the country. [ Interruption. ] Hon. Members say that kind of thing for the purpose of the public platform, but they know perfectly well in their hearts that it is not true. The Control Board is going to have the control and organisation of these machines for the purpose of seeing that they are properly conducted, properly managed, and properly run. Assuming that the House has passed the Second Reading of this Bill, and assuming that the House has decided that totalisators are to be used, it would not have been possible in any way whatever to establish them on a better, fairer and more honest basis than we are doing in this Bill. With regard to the main question of the totalisator itself, as I said this afternoon, I know very little indeed of the intricacies of betting, of its methods and so forth. All that I have been able to ascertain is that, where the totalisator is used, there is a great diminution in the rascality and the evil consequences of the racecourse.

I do not think that that is so. What is certainly likely to happen is that there will be a decrease in credit betting and an increase in cash betting. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley told us this evening that the real evil of betting is not in the half-crown that a man puts on, but in the betting which leads to defalcation, which leads to crime, as has been suggested by the hon. Member opposite. It is the man who bets with a credit bookmaker who gets further and further out of his depth, and seeks, by crime of one kind or another, to rehabilitate himself.

11.0 p.m.

That kind of betting, which is said to represent 90 per cent. of the betting of the country, will be diminished. The ordinary person who goes to the racecourse and from there telegraphs to various bookmakers to put money on will infuture probably use the totalisator. When I was Postmaster-General, I made certain inquiries as to the number of betting telegrams that went through the Post Office and I found that during the racing season, from 1st April to October, 19 per cent, of all the telegrams in the country were betting telegrams, all relating to credit betting. If by the totalisator, as is more than likely, a transfer is made of some of that credit betting from the bookmaker to the totalisator, instead of doing harm, it will do good.

A final attack was made by the right hon. Gentleman on the views of the Chancellor of the Exchequer on this matter. My right hon. Friend has been speaking elsewhere to-night; otherwise, he would have been here. The right hon. Gentleman accused me of trying to put the Bill on the Statute Book against my better judgment, and threatened me that I should receive all the odium in my person. I have never been opposed to the totalisator. I oppose the immoral evils of betting. Do not let any friend or enemy of mine make any mistake about that. The evils of betting I have tried over and over again to combat on moral grounds, as I have tried by moral suasion to combat the evils of drink. I have never anywhere said that I did not believe in the totalisator, and I am not going to say so now. I do not believe it will add to the sum of human evil connected with betting. If I did I still have, although I am a Conservative Minister, sufficient moral courage left to say that I will have nothing to do with it. Believing as I do that betting, I will not say is in itself a vice, because it depends entirely on circumstances, is inherent in human nature, as well as in the Labour party, I say that if the method of betting is transferred from the human agency to the totalisator we are not adding to the sum of betting, we are not adding to the sum of human evil, and I am prepared to accept the right hon. Gentleman's challenge. He said that there would be a general election within a year. I admit that there will be. I do not know whether he would go as far as the hon. and learned Member who suggested that he would go on the platform and pledge himself to vote for a Bill to make betting illegal, but I am prepared, if he does, to stand on a Conservative platform and say that we will go forward on our record believing some of these things which hon. Members affect to denounce in public while, as was said just now, they subsidise a newspaper which deals with betting——

I can only say that in that case I am prepared to stand up in my constituency—we are prepared to stand up in our constituencies and let the nation decide between us.

I rise to oppose the Third Reading. I will not occupy too much of the time of hon. Members, but I want to call attention to one or two very serious aspects of the matter that is now before us. The right hon. Gentleman has indulged very much in rhetoric, and in an attempt to justify the altered attitude of the Cabinet as compared with their attitude at the Second Reading of the Bill. He forgets the main principles that led to the introduction of the Bill as a private Member's Measure. The right hon. Gentleman has now arraigned himself on the side of the influence mentioned by an hon. Member, who said that the one fundamental purpose in promoting the Bill was that there was "money going about." [HON. MEMBERS: "Divide."] I am surprised at that coming from Members of my own party. I am of the opinion that back benchers at least ought to have an opportunity of having a final word before parting with a Measure in which they are interested. [HON. MEMBERS: "Divide."] Very well, I will be philosophic enough to give way to hon. Members of this House without any loss of temper if they feel I ought not to go on, but I ask of them at least five to ten minutes' grace. I certainly feel that I ought to have some little protection in the matter, because this is an occasion upon which I want to call attention to the fact that the Bill which is about to have the Third Reading is totally different in every respect from the Bill that was originally introduced. In my opinion the Bill is prompted by an arrangement between the Government Departments and the Jockey Club, and the Jockey Club has used its influence to such an extent as to compel the Government to capitulate. [HON. MEMBERS: "Divide, divide!"] Very well, if hon. Members will not play the game, I at least will be a sport and sit down.

I want to say two things, and in one sentence. It does not lie

in right hon. Gentlemen and hon. Gentlemen opposite, who are supporters of papers that give unworthy news with regard to betting, and unreliable news, to cast a gibe at us. The principal Labour paper in this country, "Forward," during the 22 years of its existence has never accepted either a liquor advertisement or any betting odds from anyone.

Question put, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."

The House divided: Ayes, 218; Noes, 122.

Division No. 309.]

AYES.

[11.13 p.m.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Dalkeith, Earl of

King, Commodore Henry Douglas

Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford)

Knox, Sir Alfred

Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)

Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil)

Lamb, J. Q

Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

Davies, Dr. Vernon

Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

Ansley, Lord

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

Atholl, Duchess of

Dawson, Sir Philip

Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Eden, Captain Anthony

Looker, Herbert William

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Lougher, Lewis

Belniel, Lord

Elliot, Major Walter E.

Lumley, L. R.

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

Barnett, Major Sir Richard

Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

Everard. W. Lindsay

MacIntyre, Ian

Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

McLean, Major A.

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon

Falle, Sir Bertram G

MacRobert, Alexander M.

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Fielden, E. B.

Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham)

Betterton, Henry B.

Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

Makins, Brigadier-General E.

Bevan, S. J.

Foster, Sir Harry S.

Margesson, Captain D.

Birchall, Major J. Dearman

Fraser, Captain Ian

Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

Blundell, F. N.

Fremantle, Lt.-Col. Francis E.

Mason, Colonel Glyn K.

Boothby, R. J. G.

Galbraith, J. F. W.

Meller, R. J.

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Ganzoni, Sir John

Merriman, Sir F. Boyd

Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-

Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

Glyn, Major R. G. C.

Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

Braithwaite, Major A. N

Goff, Sir Park

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Brass, Captain W.

Gower, Sir Robert

Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

Brassey, Sir Leonard

Grace, John

Moore, Sir Newton J.

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Briscoe, Richard George

Grant, Sir J. A.

Morrison-Bell, Sir Arther Clive

Brittain, Sir Harry

Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

Neville, Sir Reginald J.

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter

Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

Grotrian, H. Brent

Nuttall, Ellis

Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E.(Bristol, N.)

O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C.(Berks, Newb'y)

Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

Oman, Sir Charles William C.

Buchan, John

Gunston, Captain D. W.

Pennefather, Sir John

Bullock, Captain M.

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Penny, Frederick George

Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

Hamilton, Sir George

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Caine, Gordon Hall

Hammersley, S. S.

Pete, G. (Somerset, Frome)

Campbell, E. T.

Hanbury, C.

Philipson, Mabel

Carver, Major W. H.

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Pliditch, Sir Philip

Cassels, J. D.

Harland, A.

Power, Sir John Cecil

Cautley, Sir Henry S.

Hartington, Marquess of

Pownall, Sir Assheton

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

Raine, Sir Walter

Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.)

Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

Rentoul, G. S.

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian

Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.

Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

Henn, Sir Sydney H.

Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Hilton, Cecil

Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell

Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George

Hohier, Sir Gerald Fitzroy

Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

Cohen, Major J. Brunel

Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Colfax, Major Wm. Phillips

Hopkins, J. W. W.

Rye, F. G.

Cooper, A. Duff

Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)

Salmon, Major I.

Cooper, J. B.

Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N.

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Courtauld, Major J. S.

Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

Sandeman, N. Stewart

Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

Hudson. Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

Sanders, Sir Robert A.

Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

Hume, Sir G. H.

Sanderson, Sir Frank

Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

Hurd, Percy A.

Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

Iveagh, Countess of

Savory, S. S.

Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro)

Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William

Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Kindersley, Major Guy M.

Slaney, Major P. Kenyon

Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Smith-Carington, Neville W.

Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

Wolmer, Viscount

Smithers, Waldron

Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

Southby, Commander A. R. J.

Wallace, Captain D. E.

Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Sprot, Sir Alexander

Warrender, Sir Victor

Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.

Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

Watts, Sir Thomas

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

Wells, S. R.

Major Sir George Hennessy and

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

Major Sir William Cope.

Streatfeild, Captain S. R

Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

NOES.

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Harris, Percy A.

Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich)

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

Ammon, Charles George

Hayday, Arthur

Runciman, Hilda (Cornwall, St. Ives)

Attlee, Clement Richard

Hayes, John Henry

Saklatvala, Shapurji

Baker, Walter

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

Salter, Dr. Alfred

Barnes, A.

Hills, Major John Waller

Scrymgeour, E.

Barr, J

Hirst, G. H.

Scurr, John

Bondfield, Margaret

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

Briant, Frank

Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

Shiels, Dr. Drummond

Broad, F. A.

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Shinwell, E.

Bromfield, William

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Brown, Ernest (Leith)

Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Sitch, Charles H.

Buchanan, G.

Kelly, W. T.

Slesser, Sir Henry H.

Burton, Colonel H. W.

Kennedy, T.

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Butt, Sir Alfred

Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

Charleton, H. C.

Kirkwood, D.

Snell, Harry

Cluse, W. S.

Lawrence, Susan

Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

Compton, Joseph

Lawson, John James

Stamford, T. W.

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Livingstone, A. M.

Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

Crawfurd, H. E.

Longbottom, A. W.

Strauss, E. A.

Dalton, Hugh

Lowth, T.

Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon)

Sullivan, J.

Duncan, C.

Mac Laren, Andrew

Sutton, J. E.

Donnico, H.

Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

Edge. Sir William

Malone, C. L' Estrange (N'thampton)

Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)

Vlant, S. P.

Fermoy, Lord

Morris, R. H.

Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)

Forrest, W.

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Gardner, J. P.

Murnin, H.

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D, (Rhondda,

Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph

Wellock, Wilfred

Gates, Percy

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

Gillett, George M.

Oliver, George Harold

Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

Gosling, Harry

Owen, Major G.

Williams, David (Swansea, East)

Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

Windsor, Walter

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Pilcher, G.

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Griffith, F. Kingsley

Ponsonby, Arthur

Groves, T.

Potts, John S.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Mr. T. Henderson and Mr. Whiteley

Hardie, George D.

Riley, Ben

Bill read the Third time, and passed.

Post Office and Telegraph [Money]

Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 71a.

[Mr. JAMES HOPE in the Chair.]

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That it is expedient—

(1) to authorise the issue out of the Consolidated Fund of such sums, not exceeding in the whole twenty-seven and a-half million pounds, as are required for the further development of the postal, telegraphic, and telephonic systems;

(2)to authorise the Treasury to borrow, by means of terminable annuities or by the issue of Exchequer bonds, for the purpose of providing money for sums so authorised to be issued or the repayment thereof to the Consolidated Fund;

(3)to provide for the payment of any such terminable annuities, or of the principal of and interest on any such Exchequer bonds, out of moneys provided by Parliament for Post Office services or, if those moneys are insufficient, out of the Consolidated Fund."—( King's Recommendation signified. )—[ Sir W. Mitchell-Thomson. ]

Are we to have no word of explanation at all from the Postmaster-General? I am glad to hear that it is proposed to use £27,500,000 for the development of the postal telegraph and telephone services, but I am surprised that any Member for an agricultural constituency should allow it to go through without any word of explanation as to whether any of this money is to be used for providing telephonic communication in agricultural districts. As I sit for a constituency which supplies agricultural areas with cattle-feeding cake I am somewhat interested in the question. I am glad that the State is at last going to develop further this nationalised holding, which makes a profit of £9,000,000 a year—an admirable example of State enterprise. The Assistant Postmaster-General is to be congratulated on the way in which he assists in making this great national enterprise more successful than any of the great business firms of the country.

Another point which I wish to raise is is reference to interference with telephonic and telegraphic communication by heavy gales of wind in winter. I have repeatedly urged on the Postmaster-General the desirability of putting the wires underground for business reasons. I understand this is being done to a certain extent, but I am sure the Postmaster-General will give me the assurance that it is being pressed forward, after what the Home Secretary has told the House to-night, namely, that there will be a falling off in the revenue from betting telegrams owing to the totalisator. We are told that it is all going to be ready money betting——

The hon. and gallant Member is now dealing with the Bill which was last before the House.

I do not want to go into that matter except to show that the Postmaster-General will need to be more enterprising and energetic in advertising the Post Office and enhancing the value of this national property.

I am obliged to the hon. and gallant Member for what he has said, and I assure him that I meant no discourtesy to him in not rising to speak on this Resolution. This is only the preliminary stage in connection with the introduction of a Bill. I agree that the matters involved in this Resolution and in the subsequent Bill might well form the subject of discussion, but it was suggested that it would be more convenient if we waited for the discussion until hon. Members had the text of the Bill before them. There will be an opportunity on the Second Reading or Committee stage of the Bill of discussing all the questions that have been raised.

Is the right hon. Gentleman going to introduce a Bill at this stage of the Session?

Certainly it is a common practice to have a Telegraphs Money Bill at this stage of the Session.

I am quite satisfied, but the right hon. Gentleman knows that

"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty."

Question put, and agreed to.

Resolution to be reported To-morrow.

American Mail Contracts

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That the Contract, dated the 27th day of June, 1928, between the Postmaster-General and the Oceanic Steam Navigation Company, Limited, for the conveyance of Mails to and from the United States of America, be approved."—[ Sir W. Mitchell-Thomson. ]

A few weeks ago. I put a question with regard to Post Office contracts which had been entered into with a certain firm. It was proved that the firm had entered into collusive arrangements with other contractors, that they should not contract for the work in consideration of a share of the profits being allotted to them. I drew the attention of the Postmaster-General to the fact that a number of the directors who were concerned in this fraudulent collusive arrangement were still on the board of the company. I have here a copy of the contract, which I shall send to the Postmaster-General. I want to know what steps he has taken to ensure that in all future contracts allotted by the Post Office there will be no possibility of these collusive arrangements being entered into. If he can assure me that adequate steps have been taken, I will not discuss the details of this contract, but unless he can say that some definite steps have been taken to protect the Treasury and the Post Office, I trust the House will call for some further details on this contract.

I understand that an hon. Friend of mine on the front Opposition bench who knows all about these matters thinks that the bargain made by the Government is a good one, though at first sight it looks as if we were putting up the amount of subsidy, in one case from £72,000 to £100,000 a year, and in the other case, I think it is, from £68,000 to £100,000, but I understand that that seeming increase is owing to a different method of calculation and that the bargain is not a bad one. I do not want to discuss what it says about the King's enemies, pirates, barratry, and all the rest of it, but I am very interested to see that the Postmaster-General has the duty of inspecting the mail steamers as to their equipment and accommodation. Is it a fact that he really does that, or is that a mere survival of some ancient custom? Has the Post Office really got the duty of doing that? If so, there would seem to be some duplication of duties, because the Board of Trade also has the duty of inspecting ships as regards accommodation on board, and I suggest that if two Departments are doing it separately, there is some overlapping and that that question might be considered with a view to saving something in future years. Is there anything in the contracts with respect to what is known on shore as the Fair Wages Clause? I have been unable to find anything in so many words. I think the crews of these mail steamers are well paid at present. These two great shipping lines, the Cunard and the Oceanic, do, of course, have a good reputation for paying proper wages, but it is as well to be on the safe side. I think that such a Clause should exist in all Government contracts, and I want to know whether there is any undertaking in specific terms from the companies that the recognised maritime rates of wages are paid.

My last point is this: It is all very well going on carrying mails by steamer, but there will come a day when it will be perfectly feasible immensely to shorten the time taken in carrying letters, by the joint use of the aeroplane or the seaplane and the steamer. I need not expand that idea. The House has heard of it, though, from some answers which the right hon. Gentleman gave me the other day, apparently his official advisers have not heard of it. The French are engaged in some very interesting experiments on certain of their liners, the "Ile de France" and other great French mail steamers, by which they shorten the voyage very much by carrying on board the mail steamer an aeroplane and launching it with the mails when near the port of arrival by a perfectly feasible method used by our Navy and other navies. When the ship has left Cherbourg, say, she gets the late fee letters by aeroplane, and then, when she comes within perhaps 12 or six hours' steaming distance of New York, she shortens the distance by launching the aeroplane with the advance fee mails—

Did the hon. and gallant Gentleman say the advance fee mails or the advanced females?

I was not discussing rapid ladies of any kind, or the quicker carrying of film stars or other passengers, but the system by which you pay an extra amount to send letters after the ordinary mails have closed. I think that that will come into general use in connection with American mails, and I am disturbed when I find the Postmaster-General answering with an air of surprise when I ask if the same things are being done in connection with the services from this country. It is all very well being Conservative in politics, but you must not be Conservative in an undertaking like the Post Office. I should like the Postmaster-General to examine the matter very seriously.

What is the hon. and gallant Gentleman's suggestion?

The suggestion is that part of the contract should contain provision that, wherever possible, the time of carrying letters across the Atlantic should be shortened by the use at either end of the voyage of aeroplanes flown from the ship. It is being experimented with by the French, and why are we not doing it? After all, we are subsidising these steamers, partly because they are fitted to be used as auxiliary cruisers in time of war. Why not, therefore, increase the subsidy a little, so that they can carry aeroplanes and double their value as cruisers, and also advance aviation in this country.

In reply to the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for South Hackney (Captain Garro-Jones), there can be no suggestion of anything of the kind at which he hinted taking place. The Cunard and White Star Companies have been in the Trans-Atlantic business for many years; they are quite independent, and there is no suggestion of collusion.

The right hon. Gentleman says that they are independent. Is it not correct to say that they are both in the Shipping Conference, and had a large number of mutual arrangements for the carrying of passengers and freights? I want to be sure that they do not extend to the carrying of mails.

The hon. and gallant Gentleman may be perfectly satisfied that the arrangements of the two firms would never have escaped the scrutiny of either the Post Office or the Treasury, having regard to the facts which we know in previous contracts. If that scrutiny were vigilant before, it is doubly vigilant now. The hon. and gallant Member also asked me whether I personally inspected the ships. I do not. Then he asked me whether they are inspected by my officers. In so far as their fitness for the stowage of mails is concerned, they are. As regards inspection in relation to other matters, there is a clause in the contract which permits the Postmaster-General to delegate those duties to the surveyors of the Board of Trade. With reference to the question of a Fair Wages Clause, this is the first time I have heard any suggestion of the operation of a Fair Wages Clause at sea. I confess I do not quite know how it would be applied to the maritime service. There never has been any Fair Wages Clause in any contract.

There is a Maritime Board which fixes the wages of all seafarers and on which these companies are naturally represented through the Chamber of Shipping. There is a recognised wage.

That is so. But I think the majority of the crews on those vessels are so satisfied with the wages and the conditions that they ship again and again.

On the other hand, if there ever were any question about wages it would undoubtedly soon be raised on the floor of the House. In dealing with companies of this standing I do not think there is any necessity for the insertion of such a Clause. As to the use of aeroplanes in this service I confess that the hon. and gallant Member has the advantage of me. He knows more about what is going on in the French maritime service than I have been able to discover. Indeed, apparently he knows more than the Air Ministry at the moment, because I have made inquiries of the Air Ministry and am told they had no information of an experiment such as he has detailed to the House.

I can only tell the hon. and gallant Member what I am informed. I do not quite follow his suggestion as to a late fee, because that would seem to imply that after the ship had left these shores an aeroplane should follow with mail bags. Then it would be necessary for the aeroplane to make a landing on the ship [HON. MEMBERS: "No"]. Then I do not follow what the late fee proposal means. If he had said a "fee for the earlier arrival of letters on the other side" I might have understood it. I understood the hon. and gallant Member to suggest that in the case of vessels approaching England when they arrived in the mouth of the Channel an aeroplane should then fly off with mails so that letters might be landed earlier in this country. If that be the hon. and gallant Member's intention, it is quite irrelevant to this contract, because this contract does not concern the home- ward carriage of mails at all, which is not undertaken by His Majesty's Government but by the United States' Government.

I think the right hon. Gentleman does not want to answer this question by a quibble. I agree with what he has said about the homeward journey, but I was describing the outward journey. My references to late fee letters meant that people could post their letters later and yet know that they would catch the ship, and that would be useful for business men. I wish the right hon. Gentleman would really address himself seriously to this matter.

I am only anxious to get to know exactly what it is the hon. and gallant Member suggests, and then I will have further inquiries made both by my department and of the Air Ministry. He repeats that what he is anxious to secure is a late fee service, under which people may post letters later in the country, these letters catching the vessel at sea. It would appear that it would be necessary for a seaplane to alight alongside the ship, or for an aeroplane to alight on the ship [ Interruption ]; otherwise, I fail to apprehend how that mail would reach the vessel at all. But I shall be only too glad to have further inquiries made, and I will communicate later with the hon. and gallant Member.

Question put, and agreed to.

Resolved,

"That the Contract, dated the 27th day of 'June, 1928, between the Postmaster-General and the Oceanic Steam Navigation Company, Limited, for the conveyance of Mails to and from the United States of America, be approved."—[ Sir W. Mitchell-Thomson. ]

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Contract, dated the 27th day of June, 1928, between the Postmaster-General and the Cunard Steam Ship Company, Limited, for the conveyance of Mails to and from the United States of America, be approved."—[ Sir W. Mitchell-Thomson. ]

I support what has been said on this question by the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy). I will reduce what I have to say to a practical proposition, to which I invite the serious attention of the Postmaster-General. I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman should propose to the United States that we are willing to conduct experiments in the sending off of aeroplanes from the decks of ships when approaching the Eastern shores of America, and that the United States should conduct similar experiments when American ships are approaching our shores. I am aware that my suggestion involves aeroplanes alighting on the decks of ships. The problem of aeroplanes taking off ships has reached a practical stage, but the problem of alighting on the decks of ships has not yet reached that stage. We are now spending large sums of money on naval aviation which involves aeroplanes landing on the decks of warships, and surely this expenditure can be put to a more useful purpose. Here is an appropriate channel for the expenditure of money which might be a profitable investment in a very short time, and if the Postmaster-General will give his attention to this question, he might be able to increase considerably the Post Office revenue.

I have already said that I will cause inquiries to be made. If experiments on this subject are now in progress by the French Government, I think we might a wait the result of those experiments. I will find out exactly how the matter stands, and, when it has reached a practical shape, I can assure hon. Members opposite that the subject will receive attention.

Question put, and agreed to.

Resolved,

That the Contract, dated the 27th day of June, 1928, between the Postmaster-General and the Cunard Steam Ship Company, Limited, for the conveyance of Mails to and from the United States of America, be approved.—[ Sir W. Mitchell-Thomson. ]

Naval Prize Bill

Considered in Committee.

[Mr. JAMES HOPE in the Chair.]

CLAUSE 1.—(Transfer of rights and liabilities of the Naval Prize Fund to Consolidated Fund.)

Ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 2.—(Application of balance of Naval Prize Fund.)

I beg to move, in page 2, line 18, at the end, to add the words:

If I had known that the Committee stage of this Bill was coming on, I should have had with me a representative list of the claims on behalf of the widows of the Merchant Service officers who commanded ships in one capacity or another and who had claims of various amounts. In fact, the amount received by a widow was only £100 15s. for the loss of her husband! It is obvious that there are many of these widows still alive and that their means of subsistence is only eked out by assistance from charities. When the Committee recollects that it is only those officers and men who served upon what are termed offensively-armed ships who had any share in the Naval Prize Fund at all, hon. Members will realise that there were a great number of men in the Merchant Service who served on mine-sweepers and vessels of that kind and who were exposed to all the perils of war; but because their ships were not offensively-armed they had no share whatever in this Naval Prize Fund. Such men have, I think, undoubtedly an additional claim upon this residuum which may be allotted to charity.

Is it not the case that mine-sweepers were commissioned ships and that the men would therefore share in it?

I am assured that officers and men who served on mine-sweepers and who lost their lives had no share in the Naval Prize Fund. That is the case as put to me, the reason being that these vessels were not offensively-armed and that it is only those which were offensively armed that were deemed by the Admiralty to be technically capable of taking prizes. On that ground, they have had no share hitherto. But this is a subsidiary point, and I only give it as an illustration. The men in the Merchant Service, in whatever capacity they served, undoubtedly did as great service to the nation in the War as any other seamen. Therefore, I am asking this, not because there should be any obligation on the Greenwich Hospital to recognise charities, but because I know of certain charities—I do not wish to specify exactly which they are, or to draw any individious distinction, but I can name them if I am asked—which have applied to Greenwich Hospital or to the Admiralty and which have not hitherto received any share of this surplus of the Naval Prize Fund. Therefore, I want, in a word, to say that

"Notwithstanding any rule or practice"—

whether the rule is one way or the other, the practice is that these charities have not received a share—

"to the contrary, the purposes for which provision may be made by Greenwich Hospital"—

those are the exact words of the Act of 1918—

"shall not be held to exclude any charity from which men who served at sea"—

that is, the whole of the Merchant Service—

"in the late war or their dependants are entitled to benefit."

If the rule of Greenwich Hospital is to admit these charities, then there is no reason why the Admiralty should not accept this Amendment. If there is any rule or practice to the contrary, then I say it should be swept away, and I ask hon. Members to vote in favour of the inclusion of this Amendment as a small and belated recognition of the services rendered by the Merchant Service to the country in the late war. The Exchequer has a share in this business, and, as I said the other night, I recall the fact that from time to time the Exchequer receives "conscience money"—

This matter does not come under that Department of the Exchequer. As to the balance of £126,000 with which we are now dealing, there is no claim by the Exchequer and no control by the Exchequer.

I quite agree that it can only be vicarious conscience money, but I would ask those who have the disposal of this balance to do something on the lines laid down by those who were responsible for the settlement made for the Merchant Service immediately after the Great War. After the hopes which have been held out, and the pledges which were given but which were so little realised, at least something might be done now to render some assistance of the dependants of this who lost their lives in the Merchant Service.

Needless to say, I fully appreciate what my hon. Friend wishes done, and my only reason for not thinking it necessary to insert this Amendment is that in our opinion it is already included in the Bill. The Bill, as my hon. Friend has pointed out, restates what is clearly set out in the Naval Prize Act, 1918, which says that the residue of the Fund may be applied towards any purpose for which provision may be made by Greenwich Hospital. That really does exactly what my hon. Friend wishes, because, of the five objects of the foundation of Greenwich Hospital, the fourth is that the funds of the hospital may be applied to "the further

relief and encouragement of seamen," and that has always been held, and is held to-day, to mean seamen in the widest sense of the word, and, therefore, to include seamen serving in the Merchant Service. With regard to this residue of the Prize Fund, we have, as my hon. Friend will have noticed if he has studied the answer which I gave to a question put by another hon. Member a few days ago, already distributed large sums of money out of this Prize Fund to a great many institutions to which the sons and daughters of merchant seamen go, and hospitals which are open to merchant seamen and their dependants; and it is the intention of the Admiralty, with regard to the bestowal of what remains of this Fund, to distribute it among charities which are concerned with seamen as a whole, and not only seamen who served in the Royal Navy. I think, therefore, that the Amendment is quite unnecessary, because, as I have said, the Bill already carries out its intention, and there are no rules in force or practices in existence which prevent us from doing what we have every intention of doing.

The hon. and gallant Gentleman has answered me as far as the rules are concerned. There is no rule to prevent them doing certain things, I can only state specifically that in their practice certain seamen's charities have been refused any assistance, and, if the hon. and gallant Gentleman wants it, I will give him a specific case. The Captain Fryatt Memorial Fund applied to the Admiralty as early as 1922, and again in 1924, and has never received a penny from the surplus of the Naval Prize Fund. It is on account of the fact that I know that these charities have made applications and have been refused that I say it is not the practice, whatever the rule may be, to distribute this money widely among the charities with which the mercantile service is concerned, and therefore I regret that I cannot regard the manner as satisfactory and I must force my Amendment.

Question put, "That those words be there added."

The Committee divided: Ayes 19; Noes, 88.

Division No. 310.]

AYES.

[12.3 a.m.

Ammon, Charles George

Compton, Joseph

Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

Apsley, Lord

Crawford, H. E.

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Charleton, H. C.

Dunnico, H.

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F, (Dulwich)

Hayday, Arthur

Potts, John S.

Hirst, G. H.

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Kelly, W. T.

Sutton, J. E.

Sir Basil Peto and Mr. Ernest

Kennedy, T.

Wellock, Wilfred

Brown.

Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

NOES.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Ganzoni, Sir John

Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)

Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

Goff, Sir Park

Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell

Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Grotrian, H. Brent

Samuel. A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Boothby, R. J. G.

Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

Sandeman, N. Stewart

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Sanderson, Sir Frank

Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

Hartington, Marquess of

Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

Brass, Captain W.

Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

Slaney, Major P. Kenyon

Briscoe, Richard George

Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)

Brittain, Sir Harry

Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

Smith-Carington, Neville W.

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

Hilton, Cecil

Smithers, Waldron.

Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

Bullock, Captain M.

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N).

Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.

Campbell, E. T.

Iveagh, Countess of

Stanley. Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

Kindersley, Major G. M.

Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

King, Commodore Henry Douglas

Thom, Lt-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

Cooper, A. Duff

Lamb, J. Q.

Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell.

Cowper, J. B.

Lumley, L. R.

Wallace, Captain D. E.

Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)

Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

McLean, Major A.

Warner, Brigadier-General W. W

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Makins, Brigadier-General E.

Warrender, Sir Victor

Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford)

Margesson, Captain D.

Watts, Sir Thomas

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

Merriman, Sir F. Boyd

Wells, S. R.

Eden, Captain Anthony

Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph

Williams. A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Elliot, Major Walter E.

Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

Wolmer, Viscount

Everard, W. Lindsay

O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

Falls, Sir Bertram G.

Penny, Frederick George

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Flelden, E. B.

Price, Major C. W. M.

Sir William Cope and Major the

Fremantle, Lt.-Col. Francis E.

Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

Marquess of Titchfield.

Galbraith, J. F. W.

Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

CLAUSE 3.—(Dissolution of Tribunal.)

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

:This Clause means that the Tribunal established under the Naval Prize Act of 1918 shall be dissolved. The Tribunal was set, up, I understand, to adjudicate on matters affecting the Prize Fund. I may be wrong, but the Tribunal, I believe, tried the actual cases of prize, had judicial functions and took evidence on oath. What is the difference between what it does and the Prize Courts, and how are the outstanding claims that apparently are to total this large sum to be dealt with in future?

The duties of the Tribunal, shortly, are to decide whether proceeds of condemned prizes become droits of the Crown or droits of the Admiralty, and other points relating to the titles and liabilities of the Fleet as captors. The whole of the work of the Tribunal is bound up in these matters. After the Prize Courts have decided a case, the Tribunal settles whether the droits of the Crown are concerned or whether the droits of the Admiralty. These matters will in future be settled by the Treasury, in the event of the Tribunal being closed down.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill reported, without Amendment; to be read the Third time to-morrow.

Navy and Army Expenditure, 1926–1927,

Resolutions reported,

I. Whereas it appears by the Navy Appropriation Account for the year ended the 31st day of March, 1927, that the aggregate expenditure on Navy Services has not exceeded the aggregate sums appropriated for those Services, and that, as shown in the Schedule hereto appended, the net surplus of the Exchequer Grants for Navy Services over the net expenditure is £957,137 11s. 7d., namely:

£

s.

d.

Total Surpluses

1,311,579

9

6

Total Deficits

354,441

17

11

Net Surplus

£957,137

11

7

And whereas the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application of so much of the said total surpluses on certain Grants for Navy Services as is necessary to make good

SCHEDULE.

No. of Vote.

Navy Services, 1926–27, votes.

Deficits.

Surpluses.

Excesses of actual over estimated gross Expenditure.

Deficiencies of actual as compared with estimated Receipts.

Surpluses of estimated over actual gross Expenditure.

Surpluses of actual as compared with estimated Receipts.

£

s.

d.

£

s.

d.

£

s.

d.

£

s.

d.

1

Wages, etc., of Officers. Seamen, Boys, and Royal Marines, and Civilians employed on Fleet Services.

8,450

14

7

403,772

17

9

2

Victualling and Clothing

26,768

5

3

213,121

19

2

3

Medical Establishments and Services.

8,706

17

11

9,273

14

3

4

Fleet Air Arm

5

Educational Services

6,737

12

4

9,501

12

8

6

Scientific Services

40,338

11

1

1,122

5

2

7

Royal Naval Reserves

270

9

7

1,011

13

10

8

Shipbuilding, Repairs, Maintenance, etc.:

Sec. 1. Personnel

22,139

3

2

21,387

6

4

Sec. 2. Matériel

42,301

6

3

15,758

3

4

Sec. 3. Contract Work

120,257

7

0

31,769

11

3

9

Naval Armaments

43,388

18

10

115,247

18

9

10

Works, Buildings, and Repairs.

240,791

4

8

26,068

5

2

11

Miscellaneous Effective Services.

38,021

0

6

3,009

13

0

12

Admiralty Office

13,832

9

2

2,528

2

2

13

Non-Effective Services (Naval and Marine), Officers.

63,564

2

2

8,744

19

1

14

Non-Effective Services (Naval and Marine), Men.

32,417

3

8

27,843

6

1

15

Civil Superannuation, Compensation Allowances, and Gratuities.

44,711

10

4

160

19

7

Balances irrecoverable and Claims abandoned.

23,002

3

4

203,543

10

2

150,898

7

9

1,154,572

11

0

157,006

18

6

Total Deficits £354,441

17

11

Total Surpluses £1,311,579

9

6

Net Surplus

£957,137 11 7

II. Whereas it appears by the Army Appropriation Account for the year ended the 31st day of March, 1927, that the aggregate expenditure on Army Services has not exceeded the aggregate sums appropriated for those Services, and that, as shown in the Schedule hereto appended, the net surplus of the Exchequer Grants for Army Services over the net expenditure is £202,374 17s. 5d., namely:

£

s.

d.

Total Surpluses

1,505,579

3

11

Total Deficits

1,303,204

6

6

Net Surplus

£202,374

17

5

the said total deficits on other Grants for Navy Services.

1. "That the application of such sums be sanctioned."

And whereas the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application of so much of the said total surpluses on certain Grants for Army Services as is necessary to make good the said total deficits on other grants for Army Services.

2. "That the application of such sums be sanctioned."

SCHEDULE.

No. of Vote.

Army Services, 1926–27. Votes.

Deficits.

Surpluses.

Excesses of actual over estimated gross Expenditure.

Deficiencies of actual as compared with estimated Receipts.

Surpluses of estimated over actual gross Expenditure.

Surpluses of actual as compared with estimated Receipts.

£

s.

d.

£

s.

d.

£

s.

d.

£

s.

d.

1

Pay, etc., of the Army

443,322

9

4

271,064

12

10

2

Territorial Army and Reserve Forces.

357,145

10

0

30,513

5

2

3

Medical Services

9,923

14

4

2,587

2

11

4

Educational Establishments

32,064

16

6

2,295

3

2

5

Quartering and Movements

113,954

13

6

276,407

2

2

6

Supplies, Road Transport, and Remounts.

51,737

14

5

12,130

6

2

7

Clothing

163,120

15

5

222

2

4

8

General Stores

962

8

3

163,115

14

10

9

Warlike and Engineer Technical Stores.

9,546

6

6

26,305

19

2

10

Works, Buildings, and Lands

69,983

11

9

24,123

8

3

11

Miscellaneous Effective Services.

190,035

10

10

316,605

2

0

12

War Office

1,485

5

6

11,740

7

8

13

Half-Pay, Retired Pay, and other Non-effective Charges for Officers.

86,887

12

6

48,676

1

11

14

Pensions and other Non-effective Charges for Warrant Officers, Noncommissioned Officers, Men, and others.

33,314

11

9

35,008

5

5

15

Civil Superannuation, Compensation, and Gratuities.

51

17

10

7,032

13

6

Balances Irrecoverable

17,419

4

6

346,462

0

5

956,742

6

1

1,385,253

16

4

120,325

7

7

Total Deficits £1,303,204 6 6

Total Surpluses £1,505,579 3 11

Net Surplus

£202,374 17 5

Resolutions agreed to.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

It being after half-past Eleven of the clock upon Thursday evening, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

Adjourned at Seventeen Minutes after Twelve o'clock.