House of Commons
Wednesday, August 1, 1928
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
Private Business
Bognor Urban District Council Bill
I beg to move,
"That so much of the Lords' Message (30th July) as relates to the Bognor Urban District Council Bill be now considered."
This Motion, which looks alarmingly long, relates to a Measure which has been belated, through no fault of its own. It was presented by the promoters at the ordinary time, but it came into competition with another Measure, a Provisional Order Bill. It then had to wait until other Bills sent to the Local Legislation Committee had been heard. It has now passed this House, but, owing to a series of circumstances, it could not possibly pass into law this Session. It would be opposed in the other House. There are precedents for similar action in the past, and I hope this Motion will be carried through, so that the promoters will not have the great trouble, expense and delay which they would otherwise incur.
Question put, and agreed to.
So much of the Lords Message considered accordingly.
Ordered,
"That the promoters of the Bognor Urban District Council Bill which has been introduced into this House in the present Session of Parliament, and which has passed this House and been sent to the House of Lords, shall have leave to introduce the same in the next Session of Parliament, provided that notice of their intention to do so be lodged in the Committee and Private Bill Office not later than Five o'Clock on the day prior to the close of the present Session."
Ordered,
"That such Bill shall be deposited in the Committee and Private Bill Office not later than Five o'Clock on or before the third day on which the House shall sit after the next meeting of Parliament, with a declaration annexed thereto, signed by the agent, stating that the Bill is the same in every respect as the Bill at the last stage of the proceedings thereon in this House in the present Session."
Ordered,
"That the proceedings on such Bill shall be pro forma only in regard to every stage through which the same shall have passed in the present Session, and that no new fees shall he charged in regard to such stages."
Ordered,
"That the Standing Orders by which the proceedings on Bills are regulated shall not apply to such Bill in regard to any of the stages through which the same shall have passed during the present Session."
Ordered,
"That this Order be a Standing Order of the House."—( The Chairman of Ways and Means. )
Message to the Lords to acquaint them therewith.
New Writ
For the Burgh of Aberdeen (North Division), in the room of Frank Herbert Rose, esquire, deceased.—[ Mr. Thomas Kennedy. ]
Oral Answers to Questions
League of Nations
Macedonia (Minority Treaty)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether a petition recently addressed to the League of Nations by Macedonian émigrés in Bulgaria, calling attention to infractions of the Minority Treaty in Macedonia, has been circulated to members of the Council, including His Majesty's Government?
I am not certain to which petition the right hon. Gentleman refers, as a considerable number of such petitions have been addressed to the Secretariat of the League of Nations. If, however, he refers to the petition received by the Secretariat in March last, from the National Committee of Organisations of Macedonian Emigrés in Bulgaria, the answer is that the Yugo-Slav Government took the preliminary objection that the petition was not receivable according to the rules of the Council. This preliminary objection was examined by a Committee of the Council in June last, and the Committee decided that the petition was not receivable. It was, therefore, not circulated to the members of the Council.
Is any other course of dealing with the alleged situation in Macedonia under consideration?
Does the hon. Member mean under the consideration of His Majesty's Government? It really lies with the respective Governments concerned and not with His Majesty's Government.
Security and Arbitration (Model Treaty)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the model treaty to strengthen the means of preventing war, which was drawn up by the League of Nations Committee on Security and Arbitration, will come up for discussion at the forthcoming session of the League of Nations Assembly; and whether instructions will be given to the representatives of His Majesty's Government to support its adoption?
The Report of the Arbitration and Security Committee, to which the model treaty is annexed, is on the agenda of the forthcoming Assembly. The model treaty is not a protocol open for the signature of all members of the League, but is merely intended to serve as a model for bilateral or other treaties between particular Powers who may desire to assume such obligations. The text of the model treaty, which is not yet finally settled, is being examined by His Majesty's Government, and I am not yet in a position to indicate what will be the precise instructions issued to the British Delegation.
Is not this proposal exactly in line with the principle adopted by the Foreign Secretary in 1925 when, as rapporteur, he imposed an armistice on behalf of the League on the Greek and Bulgarian troops?
As a matter of fact, the phraseology is being looked into. Until that has been decided, I do not think that I can say anything move.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what attitude has been adopted by His Majesty's Government towards the model convention adopted by the League of Nations Committee on Security and Arbitration, which provides for conciliation, compulsory settlement by judicial means, and arbitration in all international disputes of a political nature; and whether be will take steps to secure its adoption at the next assembly of the League?
The British representative on the Security and Arbitration Committee assisted in drafting the model convention which is intended to serve as a pattern for States whose circumstances may render them desirous of concluding instruments of the character in question. The British representative will vote for its adoption as such.
Diplomatic Immunity
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs when the list of persons claiming diplomatic immunity was last revised, and whether it is the practice of his Department constantly to revise this list; and whether he will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT the list now in operation?
The list of persons regarded by His Majesty's Government as entitled to diplomatic immunity was last reprinted and circulated in the usual official quarters in June, 1926. Names are constantly being added to it and taken from it in accordance with information received from the foreign diplomatic representatives, and such changes are invariably communicated to the authorities among whom the printed list is circulated. I do not think that the composition of the list, which is of very considerable length, containing as it does the names not only of persons employed on the official staffs of the foreign Embassies and Legations, but also of persons in the domestic ser- vice of the various Heads of Missions, is of sufficient general interest to warrant its circulation in the OFFICIAL REPORT, especially as the corrected lists can always be seen at the offices of the Sheriffs of the City and County of London. Moreover, my right hon. Friend will shortly be communicating with the foreign representatives, as is periodically the practice, with a view to the correction of the information contained in the list. I may add that in the preparation and revision of the list the question of the categories of persons properly acceptable as entitled to claim diplomatic privilege will continue to be carefully watched.
How exactly is this list compiled? Is any name submitted by an Ambassador or Minister of a foreign Power automatically put on it, whether the person is a chef or a clerk or whether he occupies any other position?
There is nothing automatic about it. Certain lists are sent in by foreign representatives in this country. They are very carefully scrutinised, and only those names are put on the list that we are satisfied ought to be there.
Has the hon. Gentleman's attention been directed to certain observations made by a learned Judge to the effect that apparently anyone can get on the list?
I know about the statement to which the hon. Member refers. I can assure him that it is not the case.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if his attention has been called to a recent case in which a, member of a foreign legation accredited to this country incurred heavy bills for nursing, medical attendance, food, drugs, and other necessaries, and subsequently left the country without discharging any of his liabilities; and whether, in cases of this kind, the notice of the Government concerned is drawn to the advantage taken by its representative of the privileges of diplomatic immunity?
I have no knowledge of the case to which my hon. and gallant Friend refers, but I shall be happy to consider what action, if any, I can take concerning it, if I am furnished with a full statement of the facts?
Is the hon. Gentleman taking any steps to revise the procedure whereby representatives of foreign Powers and their servants obtain immunity?
Owing to a certain decision in the Courts the other day, we are looking into the whole circumstances.
Is it not a fact that the normal procedure, in the event of any member of the staff of an Embassy incurring debts on leaving, is that the Embassy usually makes itself responsible for paying the debts as a matter of international courtesy?
I will not go so far as to say that, but I think the Embassy makes itself very largely responsible.
Is there in practice any obligation on the representative of a foreign Power to disclose the fact of his position when going to a trader or other business firm, so that they may not contract with him under a misapprehension?
I am quite sure a foreign representative will always do his best to respect the rights of citizens of this country.
Does the right hon. Gentleman recognise that this is the case of one of the modern representatives?
Cuba (Jamaicans)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he has received details of the deportation of Jamaicans from Cuba; and whether he proposes to take any further action in the matter?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. My right hon. Friend stated on 23rd July that he had called for a Report on this subject from His Majesty's Chargé d'Affaires at Havana. When this Report, which I expect to receive by despatch, has been received, I shall be happy to communicate to my hon. Friend in writing any particulars which are likely to prove of interest to him.
Is it not a fact that communications are now taking place direct between Cuba and Jamaica, and is the Foreign Office not aware of anything that is going on?
Yes, I am aware that efforts are being made to absorb this surplus labour, but we have not yet received the particular Report.
Are matters not reported on automatically such as the deportation of British subjects from a foreign country?
A special Report was asked for. That Report we are now awaiting.
Royal Navy
Bahama Islands (Harbour Approaches)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether application has been made for charting the approaches to two new harbours in the Bahama Islands; whether he is aware that it is of great importance to the development of the colony that these new harbours should be speedily placed on the official chart; and whether the application is receiving favourable consideration?
I regret that it is not possible to divert any of His Majesty's surveying ships from their present work to undertake surveys in the Bahamas. If, however, the Bahamian Government could supply a vessel and crew, it might be possible to obtain the services of a retired naval officer to carry out the surveys required or, alternatively, the services of a surveyor on the active list might be arranged.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman consider that this very important work of Imperial development deserves at least this small amount of assistance from the home Government?
If my hon. and gallant Friend will define what the small amount of assistance is that we are able to give I shall be quite willing to consider it.
As a matter of fact, are not the harbours used by rum runners in the Bahamas?
I am not responsible for them.
Is the Secretary of State aware that for lack of Admiralty charts of these potential harbours an immense amount of development which would give employment to British hands is being indefinitely held up, and, further, is he aware that without the assistance of the Admiralty in this connection, it is almost impossible to develop these valuable British possessions?
Perhaps the right hon. and gallant Gentleman will put down a question or write to me on the subject.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these harbours cannot be used until they have been put on the chart?
Prize Fund (Charities)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether any grants have been made from the Prize Fund to charities mainly or wholly devoted to British merchant seamen; and whether it is proposed to make any such grants in the future or any further grants to such charities?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, and I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to a reply given on the 11th July to the hon. Member for Devonport (Mr. Hore-Belisha) which gives a complete list of the charities sharing in the distribution. As regards the second part of the question, the claims of the Mercantile Marine will be given the fullest consideration in any further distribution.
Why did the hon. and gallant Gentleman refuse such an assurance about a week ago to the hon. Baronet the Member for Barnstaple (Sir B. Peto) which, from the hon. Baronet's point of view, led to a regrettable incident in this House?
I never refused the information; indeed, I gave it.
Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that I heard his remarks with great attention, and that I consider that the hon. Baronet the Member for Barnstaple is well justified?
When the hon. and gallant Gentleman is considering the claims of merchant seamen, will he also consider the claims of dockyard men who did service of exactly the same character?
All claims by charities for assistance will be considered.
Does my hon. and gallant Friend recognise the fact that very little has been given up to the present time in the way of relief?
Singapore Base (Conditions of Contracts)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if, in settling contracts in respect of the Singapore base, he insists upon a clause being inserted in the contracts that the whole of the material and plant required shall be British material, manufactured in the United Kingdom, and also that the labour employed shall be, as far as possible, British?
In contracts for the Singapore Base all the materials are specified to be either from the United Kingdom or from sources within the British Empire, but no restrictions are imposed on contractors as to the source of supply of their plant. With regard to labour it would not be practicable in connection with contracts of this nature in the Far East to limit the contractor to the employment of British workmen, but all Asiatic labour, a large proportion of which will probably be Indian, will be subject to the Labour Ordinances in force in the Straits Settlements.
Are any steps being taken to recruit labour in this country where it would be possible to do so, particularly from discharged dockyards?
I am exceedingly doubtful if it is possible to recruit labour in this country for work at Singapore.
Chatham Dockyard (Discharges)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty the number of men, with their respective grades, who have been discharged from Chatham dockyard since the date of the launch of His Majesty's Ship "Kent"?
1,624 work-people have been discharged on reduction from the Vote 8 Departments at Chatham since the date referred to. With the hon. Member's permission I will give the more detailed figures in the OFFICIAL. REPORT.
Are these discharges still continuing?
I should like to have notice of that question, but I rather think not.
Following are the detailed, figures:
The figures for the several grades are as follows:—
Shipwrights 391 Joiners 51 Smiths 36 Coppersmiths 27 Fitters and Turners 323 Boilermakers 58 Founders 9 Painters 13 Patternmakers 23 Drillers 39 Riveters 19 Caretakers 22 Skilled Labourers 288 Labourers 245 Boys 14 Miscellaneous 66 Total 1,624
Chargemen (Leave)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he will consider the granting of leave with pay to chargemen of His Majesty's dockyards who have had three years' total service, although that service may have been made up of broken periods of more than three months, on recommendations from their superior officers that exceptional work has been performed?
No reason is seen for altering the Regulations in the manner suggested by the hon. Member. As he is probably aware, leave with pay is allowed to chargemen who have three years' total service as chargemen; and two years of the qualifying service may be made up of broken periods, each of not less than three months, rendered within the three years next preceding the date of last appointment.
Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that I am not asking him to revise the regulation, but to give this lead in a particular case if the circumstances justify it?
I am afraid that I cannot give any further answer than that which I have already given.
Marriage Allowance
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty if the wife of a naval rating who has a separation order against her husband and who has been granted by the magistrates a maintenance order of 30s. per week, which the rating is allotting to the magistrate's clerk for payment to his wife, is entitled to receive children's allowance for the two children of the marriage.
No, Sir. Marriage Allowance is not payable where husband and wife are separated otherwise than by the exigencies of the Naval service either for the wife or for any children in her care.
Is it not a fact that the magistrate's order is not operative as against a sailor actually serving, and is there not a great deal of injustice done to wives who are separated from their husbands.
I have no reason to believe that that is so.
Cannot my hon. and gallant Friend see that the injustice is not to the wife, but to the children?
When separation allowances are granted by the justices the fact that there are children is no doubt borne in mind.
Unemployment
Benefit
asked the Minister of Labour the number of applicants who failed to satisfy the 30-stamps qualification but secured benefit under the transitional conditions of the Unemployment insurance Act of last year since 19th April, and to the latest date for which he has statistics.
Statistics giving the information desired are not available.
Is it because these figures are not ascertainable or merely that they are not to hand?
No, Sir. We do not keep a separate record of those who fail to satisfy one of these conditions, but we have the totals of those who obtain benefit and those who do not. We have no separate figures showing what the hon. Gentleman asks for.
Are not these figures key figures and therefore very important figures, and will not the hon. Gentleman's estimates for next year depend upon this information?
Cannot the hon. Gentleman obtain these figures from the various Employment Exchanges throughout the country, because they are very important?
No, Sir, I do not think that I can. What the hon. Gentleman asks, is whether we can give two sets of figures showing the figures of two different qualifications. We have not those figures, and cannot get them.
Is it not the case that the hon. Gentleman can already distinguish the cases of those not genuinely seeking work, and why cannot he distinguish these cases? Is it really because there is no one getting the benefit of the transitional period?
It is certainly not that, because a very large number of them are getting the benefit of the transitional period, and, of course, genuinely seeking work is only one condition.
The hon. Gentleman can already distinguish that particular case and can give us the figures. Why cannot he give us the figures in regard to the other case?
The reason that I cannot give the figures is that I have not got them, and I cannot get them.
Is it not because this calculation will not be made until the end of the transitional period?
I am not at all certain about that, but I have already explained that we can only give the numbers of those who satisfy and of those who fail to satisfy, but we have not the record of those who failed for any particular reason.
What authority has the hon. Gentleman for saying that a considerable number of people coming within this qualification have received benefit?
Is my hon. Friend taking any steps to have a sample made to see how many of these men will come off next year?
That is a question of which I should like notice.
Training Centres, Glasgow
asked the Minister of Labour if it is proposed to set up training centres in Glasgow and district for men and women; and, if so, can he state the proposed situation, the numbers of persons to be trained, and the conditions under which it will be carried out?
A training centre for young unemployed men will be opened this autumn in Glasgow. The accommodation will be for 150 men at a time to begin with. The conditions will be the same as those at the existing training centres in England. With regard to women, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which my right hon. Friend gave him on 18th July.
Exchange Facilities, North Ormesby
asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that, owing to the closing down of works in North Ormesby, inconvenience is being caused to men in this district who have to go a considerable distance to register at the Middlesbrough Employment Exchange; and, in view of the further considerable increase in unemployed men which will take place this week owing to the closing down of Pease and Partners' works, will he arrange to reopen the sub-Exchange at North Ormesby, thus preventing congestion at the Middlesbrough Exchange and the wasting of the time of the men concerned who could otherwise be looking for work?
I am having inquiries made and will communicate further with the hon. Member.
In view of the fact that Parliament will not be sitting when the inquiries have been made, will the hon. Gentleman give very sympathetic consideration to this case, as the Middlesbrough Exchange is very crowded and these men have considerable difficulty in registering?
I can assure the hon. Member that on receipt of the question I at once instituted inquiries, and if there is any serious inconvenience such as the hon. Member suggests, steps will be taken at once to remedy it.
Army and Navy (Enlistment)
asked the Minister of Labour what instructions are issued to unemployment insurance officers with respect to recommending unemployed youths to join the Army or Navy; and what limit is set to their powers in this direction?
The instructions provide that officers of the Employment Exchanges may not suggest to applicants the desirability of enlisting in His Majesty's Forces. They are authorised, however, to give to any applicant who may ask for it, information with regard to conditions of enlistment, including the name and address of the nearest recruiting office.
If I give the hon. Member cases where the officers have asked applicants to apply, will he look into it?
Yes.
Will the Minister give the House the reasons why these officers are not allowed to suggest the Army and Navy as a career?
These regulations have been in existence for a great many years, and, while we feel it is not our duty to act as recruiting officers, at the same time we are always prepared to give information if we are asked for it.
Port Talbot Area
asked the Minister of Labour the number of registered unemployed persons at the last available date in the area covered by
NUMBER of INSURED PERSONS classified as belonging to certain industries recorded as Unemployed on 23rd July, 1928, at the Port Talbot Employment Exchange. Industry. Insured Persons recorded as— Wholly Unemployed. Temporarily Stopped. Total. Canal, River, Dock and Harbour Service 374 27 401 * Patent Fuel, Artificial Stone and Concrete Manufacture.Patent Fuel, Artificial Stone and Concrete Manufacture. 61 — 61 * Manufacture of Copper, Brass, Zinc, Tin, Lead, etc.Manufacture of Copper, Brass, Zinc, Tin, Lead, etc. 56 22 78 Steel Melting and Iron Puddling Furnaces, Iron and Steel Rolling Mills and Forges. 200 459 659 Coal Mining 1,201 277 1,478 Building 105 22 127 †Railway Service 10 1 11 Other Industries 494 400 894 Total all Industries 2,501 1,208 3,709 * Separate figures for patent fuel and copper manufacture are not available.Separate figures for patent fuel and copper manufacture are not available. †The figures relate to non-permanent workers only.
Forest Holdings (Miners)
asked the Prime Minister whether he proposes carrying out the recommendations of the Industrial Transference Board as to afforestation, in view of the pressing needs of such work on national grounds in addition to the employment aspect?
The Government have included a provision of £1,000,000 for forest holdings in the sum of £5,500,000 which they propose should be voted for afforestation in the next ten years. It has been arranged that the Forestry Commission in setting up new holdings shall, so far as they can, give a preference in regard to new applicants to men displaced from the mining industry.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say if this meets fully the
the Port Talbot Employment Exchange in each of the following trades, namely, dock workers, fuel workers, copper workers, steel workers, miners, building-trade workers, railwaymen, and miscellaneous?
As the reply includes a number of figures, I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate a statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the statement:
representations made by the Forestry Commissioners.
I am afraid I do not know.
Building Operatives, Glasgow
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware of the number of building trade workers now unemployed in the Glasgow area; and if, in view of the housing needs of that district, he will Faye representations made to the local authority with a view to the speeding up of housing and, if possible, to secure the men work?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As the hon. Member is aware from my reply to a similar question by him on the 3rd April, I have already made representations to the corporation of the nature referred to in the latter part of the question. I shall again approach the corporation on the matter.
Will the right hon. Gentleman in the Recess call a conference of the building trade, employers and workmen, with a view to seeing what can be done in this matter?
I do not think that is necessary, but I will call the attention of the local authority to the hon. Member's question.
Royal Air Force
Ex-Airman's Treatment
asked the Secretary of State for Air whether his attention has been called to the case of Mr. B. Simpson, No. 351545, A.C. 1, ex-Royal Air Force, who was called up for military service at the age of 18 years, saw service on the Western front, and who after demobilisation re-engaged for two years, serving in India, afterwards joining the Royal Air Force; whether he is aware that Mr. Simpson was discharged permanently unfit on the 27th April, 1928. and transferred to the City Mental Hospital, Rubery Hill, Birmingham; that the medical advisers to the Ministry have declined to agree that the disability is attributable to service; and that as a result this man's father, who is an old soldier, three of whose sons served in the Great War, has been ordered to pay 7s. weekly towards the maintenance of his son from his small wages as a post office cleaner; and whether he will see whether it is possible to treat Mr. Simpson as a service patient in his own interest, and in the interest of his father, who is quite unable to bear the financial burden?
The answer to the first three parts of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the fourth part, I was not aware of the fact, which was not brought out, I think, in the hon. Member's recent correspondence with me about this case, that the exairman's father was being charged in respect of his son's maintenance in the mental hospital. Subject to the production of evidence of such payments and to confirmation of the father's straitened circumstances, it will be possible, I hope, to reimburse him to the extent of the gratuity which is at present being retained for the benefit of the ex-airman, and I shall be glad if the hon. Member will advise the father to make application to the Air Ministry accordingly. As regards the last part of the question, only ex-Service men whose insanity is directly attributable to service in the great War can be regarded as "Service patients," and I regret, therefore, that I cannot adopt the hon. Member's suggestion that Mr. Simpson should be treated as a Service patient.
In the absence of direct evidence to the contrary would it not be more satisfactory to regard this man as a Service patient, seeing that he appears to have been with the forces continuously since the end of the War?
I always regard cases of this kind with the greatest sympathy, but I am afraid that the Regulations are quite explicit and this is not a Service case.
Navigation (Instruction)
asked the Secretary of State for Air whether arrangements are made for airmen in the Royal Air Force to be trained in navigating by instruments without recourse to landmarks, on the lines of the instruction in blindfold flying now being given at the French training aerodrome of Toussusle-Noble?
Royal Air Force personnel are given instruction in navigating by instruments without recourse to landmarks. The British and French methods of training are not, however, identical.
Imperial Airways, Limited (Agreement)
asked the Secretary of State for Air why, although the heads of the new agreement with Imperial Airways, Limited, were initialed in April, 1928, no public announcement of the increased subsidy was made until the second week of. July?
Although initialed in April, the heads of agreement provided for possible alternative decisions on several points and I considered it inadvisable to issue the White Paper until these questions were definitely settled in consultation with the Government of India. A public announcement upon the subject had already been made by me in my statement on the Air Estimates on 12th March, when my reference to the proposed conclusion of a new and wider agreement clearly foreshadowed an increase in subsidy.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that between the period when the Agreement was initiated and the public announcement there was very considerable speculation in the shares of Imperial Airways, which resulted in their going up by about 100 per cent., and that that speculation was evidently by people with inside information? In view of that fact, will the right hon. Gentleman see that in future, when large public funds are going to be given in subsidy, the earliest possible announcement is made?
Yes, Sir. I did make a public announcement on the subject at the earliest possible moment. I made it clear in my Air Estimates speech in March last. If there was any rise in the shares, of which I know nothing, it was probably due to the public announcement that I made to the House.
Registrar, Carnarvon and Anglesey
asked the Attorney-General whether, in appointing the new Registrar for the counties of Carnarvon and Anglesey, he will make it a condition of the appointment that the successful applicant must have a thorough knowledge of the Welsh language?
I am informed by my right hon. Friend the Lord Chancellor that he has already determined that the gentleman to be appointed to be Registrar of the County Court of Carnarvon and of the County Courts in Anglesey should have a competent knowledge of the Welsh language.
Admiralty House (Stonefacing)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether there is any scheme prepared for stone-facing the Horse Guards side of Admiralty House and that side and the street side of Downing Street in keeping in each case with the surrounding architecture; when it is proposed to carry it out; and what it will be estimated to cost?
As regards the first part of the question, no scheme of this nature has ever been prepared or considered. I am afraid it is not possible to prepare estimates for work which it is not proposed to carry out.
Houses of Parliament
asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether any of the stone removed from the Houses of Parliament is available for Members who wish to purchase it; and, if so, at what price.
Only a small quantity of stone is available at the moment, apart from that which is being used to strengthen the Embankment wall. As soon as the repairs are actually commenced further supplies, surplus to requirements will become available, and it is proposed to give Members an opportunity of acquiring small quantities of stone suitable for rockwork at 10s. per ton, exclusive of cartage. Pieces of carved stone will also be available at varying prices. Application should be made to the Clerk of Works' Office or to the hon. Member for East Nottingham (Mr. Brocklebank).
Will these pathetic souvenirs be available to ex-Members also?
I should think so.
Perhaps the hon. and gallant Member will let us have the price of a gargoyle, in case we want one.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, what progress has been made with the arrangements for the repair of the stonework at the Houses of Parliament.
My Noble Friend hopes that within the next few weeks he will receive definite advice from the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research regarding the selection of stones for the repairs. Meanwhile orders have been placed with the maintenance contractors for replacing a length of the parapet and two pinnacles in Clipsham stone on the South Front in advance of the general work; and tenders are about to be invited for the provision of staging at the Central Tower preparatory to the erection of scaffolding on that part of the building.
Am I to understand that the stone being used is of an experimental character, and as a test of stability?
Yes, Sir.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether the last date on which the electric lamps on the Terrace were lit; and whether it is any longer necessary for this part of the Houses of Parliament to be kept in total darkness.
The lamps in question were last lighted for an official reception on May 18th last. My Noble Friend is not aware of any general desire that he should incur the expense of lighting the Terrace except on special occasions.
Is the hon. and gallant Member aware that the messengers have the utmost difficulty in recognising Members on the Terrace; and can he say whether the cheese-paring economy which the Government are adopting is being fittingly applied to the lighting of these premises?
I think it has been most fittingly applied, and as far as the first point is concerned, I should think that is an advantage.
Does the hon. and gallant Member think there is any danger in the darkness of the Terrace, even if Hyde Park is to be lighted?
Will the hon. and gallant Member supply flash lamps to the messengers?
Royal Botanic Gardens
asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether, seeing that intimation has been given to the Royal Botanic Society that when its lease expires in 1932 its gardens will be taken over and opened to the public free of charge, it is his intention to continue to maintain the gardens as botanical gardens and to afford facilities to institutions of the University of London undertaking botanical education for study and experimental work or to throw the land in question into the general area of Regent's Park?
My Noble Friend is not yet in a position to make a statement on this question, which does not materialise for nearly four years, but my hon. Friend can rest assured that due consideration will be given to any representations which may be made to him.
Contributory Pensions Act
asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that William Jennings, residing at 43, Shaw Lane, Barnsley, made a claim for old age pension at 65 years of age in November, 1927; and if he can state why no decision has as yet been communicated to him respecting such application?
Mr. Jennings was notified on the 25th July that he had been awarded an old age pension. The delay in reaching a decision on the claim was due to the fact that the insurance record was incomplete owing to the neglect of the insured person to surrender some of his contribution cards to his Approved Society and protracted investigation was necessary before title could be established.
asked the Minister of Health the number of widows, orphans, and dependent children, in receipt of pensions under the Widows', Orphans' and Old Age Contributory Pensions Act, for the three years 1925, 1926, and 1927?
As the answer involves a number of figures, I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the answer:
The Widows', Orphans' and Old Age Contributory Pensions Act did not come into operation until 4th January, 1926, and consequently there were no pensions in payment under the Act in 1925. During the year 1926, 175,323 widows and 15,750 orphans were awarded pensions. The widows' pensions included allowances for approximately 269,000 children. During the year 1927, 61,982 widows and 3,424 orphans were awarded pensions. The widows' pensions included allowances for approximately 48,000 children. On 31st December, 1927, 196,486 widows' pensions, which included allowances for 246,307 children and 15,161 orphans' pensions were in payment.
Public Health (Traffic Noises)
asked the Minister of Health whether, during the last 12 months, his Department has taken, or has recommended any other Department to take, any action to prevent the nuisance caused by noisy traffic in the streets; and whether, in particular, he has had any communication with the Royal Automobile Club as to the use of silencers and the standardisation of horns?
The reply to both parts of the question is in the negative.
Is the right hon. Gentleman seized of the importance of the wide interest that prevails in regard to this matter? Is he acquainted with the experiments recently made in France and Belgium?
No, Sir.
Asylum Patients (Estates)
asked the Minister of Health if he will take steps to secure that the property of public asylum patients will not be sold up during their detention, as the result is that these people leave the asylum penniless?
The authorities liable for the maintenance of rate-aided patients in public mental hospitals are empowered by Statute to recover expenses against the estates of such patients. If the hon. Member is aware of any specific case of hardship, and will give me particulars, I will cause inquiry to be made.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I have one case in my pocket, of a woman whose home is being sold up, and she is left penniless?
I cannot be aware of any case which the hon. Member has in his pocket.
I understand that the right hon. Gentleman's attention has been called to this particular case.
Isle of Man (Contributory Pensions)
asked the Minister of Health whether his Department was requested to advise the Isle of Man legisfuture regarding the Widows', Orphans' and Old Age Contributory Pensions Act; what was the nature of the advice; and when such advice was given?
The advice of my Department was requested by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. It was given on the 9th June and was of the nature indicated by him in reply to previous questions by the hon. Member.
Milk Bottling and Measuring Machines
asked the President of the Board of Trade the approximate number of milk bottles which have been stamped for measuring purposes; and what steps are being taken to ensure that the public secures full measure in the purchase of milk generally?
The verification of all measures is carried out by local authorities, and no information is available in the Board of Trade as to the number of milk bottles which have been stamped as measures. Regulations for the stamping of milk bottles used as measures are under consideration but it is already an offence under the Sale of Food (Weights and Measures) Act, 1926, to give short measure.
Jam Sales
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that in the case of certain manufacturers pots of jam are being sold as containing 1 lb. which are two and a-half and three ounces short in weight; and what step he proposes to take to protect the consumer?
The giving of short weight in the retail sale of any article of food is prohibited by the Sale of Food (Weights and Measures) Act, 1926, and any person who sells jam by weight is therefore liable to prosecution if he gives short weight.
Has the attention of the Parliamentary Secretary been drawn to these jars Can he see any difference between them? One is three ounces short of the lb. May I ask whether his inspectors have at any time reported to him the existence of the process of having jars with the bottoms bulging up, limiting the holding capacity? [HON. MEMBERS: "Speech!"] I am trying to prevent fraud. I want to know whether the Department are taking any steps to draw the attention of the public to the fact that they are being swindled in this way.
I do not know whether the weight is stamped on the outside of the jar?
It is not.
Then it is not a contravention of the Act.
But is not the hon. Member going to take some steps to prevent the public in busy shopping hours being handed a jar three ounces short of the proper weight?
All I can suggest is that the public should notice whether the weight is stamped on the jar or not.
Surely, if members of the public are being swindled out of three ounces in 16, the hon. Member can take some notice and cause inquiries to be made to see if the allegation is true.
They have the opportunity of seeing whether there is a bulge in the bottom of the jar, and, in any case, if they ask for a one-pound jar they are entitled to the pound weight. If they ask for a jar of jam, they get a jar.
Mercantile Marine
Load Line (St. Lawrence)
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he has received information from the Canadian Government and Canadian shipping authorities regarding alleged overloading on ships trading from the St. Lawrence, and the casualties caused thereby; and what is the purport of authoritative Canadian information?
I have received a telegram from the Montreal Board of Trade to the effect that the port warden requires the production of freeboard certificates in all cases before granting clearance, and in no case is clearance granted in contravention of freeboard certificates.
We may take it that the allegations made in this House by the hon. Member for Anglesey (Sir R. Thomas) are without foundation?
As far as I know they are without foundation. The hon. Member for Anglesey (Sir R. Thomas) was asked on the 17th of July if he would state a case. Up to the present moment, he has not done so.
Thames Navigation (Foreign Vessels)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he proposes to take steps to give effect to the suggestion received from the Thames pilots and licensed watermen as to it being made obligatory for foreign vessels navigating between Gravesend and London to take on board a licensed pilot?
I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the answer given him by the Parliamentary Secretary on the 18th July. The matter is still receiving careful consideration, and it has not yet been found possible to reach a decision.
Is the hon. Member aware that the representative of the Board of Trade said that he was in communication with Trinity House and the Port of London Authority and that he hoped to have a reply before the rising of the House? Has any notice been received from either of these authorities?
The matter is still under consideration. When the Parliamentary Secretary was asked whether he would get the information before the end of the Session, he said, "Yes, possibly." It has not been possible, but we are doing our best to get it as quickly as we can.
Does the hon. Member realise the danger that there is to the traffic in the river if these foreign captains are allowed to come up without any knowledge of the difficulties and without pilots?
That is one of the points which is being investigated. We are not yet satisfied that a great deal of damage is done, but in any case, as regards pilotage, legislation would be required and that cannot be a quick process.
Rating Relief
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, arising out of the Government's decision to grant certain earlier relief in freights to the coal industry as from 1st December, 1928, he will give guidance as to how this relief will be apportioned between the coal trade and the iron and steel trade in the case of forward contracts made for the supply of coal during a period beyond the 1st December next and entered into before such earlier relief was intimated?
The freight rate reductions under the proposals would in the ordinary course be allowed to the person who paid the freight charges, and my right hon. Friend considers that any consequential adjustments that might be necessary should be made by negotiation between the industries concerned.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the freight relief proposed to be given in December next will apply to coal for British deep-sea fishing trawlers; and whether coal sold as bunkers to foreign fishing vessels calling at British ports will receive freight relief?
I have been asked to reply. Coal used for bunkering deep sea fishing vessels whether registered in British or foreign ports is treated as foreign bunkers, and as such will receive the benefit of the proposed rail freight relief as from 1st December next.
Is it not a fact that the coal supplied to these bunkers will not be cheapened and will not receive freight relief unless carried over public railways, and is the right hon. Gentleman aware that 16,000,000 tons of coal that is sent abroad from Northumberland and Durham every year will receive no freight relief?
I must confine my answer to what is contained in the original question, with which the supplementary question has nothing to do.
Transport (New Omnibus Routes)
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the danger that is threatening the amenities of certain neighbourhoods in London with historical and antiquarian associations, such as Downshire Hill, Hampstead, because of the opening of new omnibus routes; and whether, seeing that neither the Ministry of Transport nor the Metropolitan Police have powers of veto over traffic routes except from a purely traffic point of view, he will consider promoting legislation to vest such powers in some Government Department?
While I appreciate the point of view represented in the hon. Member's question, I regret that I cannot undertake at the present time to promote legislation on the lines suggested.
Indian Affairs (Debate)
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the responsibility which still devolves upon this House for the control of Indian affairs, he will arrange to give at least one full day for discussion of Indian affairs before the termination of the present Session?
A Debate on Indian affairs will be initiated by the Opposition to-morrow on the Second Reading of the Appropriation Bill.
Countries. Furnaces in Blast. Output in Pig Iron. At beginning of 1924. At end of May, 1928. January, 1924. May, 1928. Thousand Tons of 2,240 lbs. Great Britain 204 148 * 636·6 591·5 * Germany 66 104† ‡ 1,027·31† France 127 150 576·9 857·0 Belgium 42 56 205·7 323·5 * At the end of June, 1928, there were in blast in Great Britain 141 furnaces, with an output for the month of June of 563,700 tons. At the end of June, 1928, there were in blast in Great Britain 141 furnaces, with an output for the month of June of 563,700 tons. † At the end of June, 1928, there were in blast in Germany 103 furnaces, with an output for the month of June of 1,014,900 tons. ‡ Information not available.
Scotland
Mr. OSCAR SLATER (COMPENSATION)
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether any claims have been made by, or on behalf of, Oscar Slater for compensation for the years of imprisonment endured by him; and what action his Department has taken?
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware that Mr. Oscar Slater has no intention to make any claim for compensation from the Government; if, in view of this, the Government have reconsidered the question; and, if so, what action they propose to take?
I have seen a Press statement to the effect that a claim for compensation is not to be made, but I have no further information on the point. The question of compensation is receiving my consideration.
Iron and Steel Trade
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can give the increase or decrease in the capacity of furnaces in blast as compared with the beginning of 1924 for Great Britain, Germany, France, and Belgium?
With the hon. Member's permission, I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a table giving the available information.
Following is the table:
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether any information has been issued by the Scottish authorities to the effect that compensation would not be entertained in this case?
No, Sir.
May I ask when the right hon. Gentleman will come to a decision. He has no doubt read in the Press the official statement to the effect that this man does not intend to claim compensation. How long will it take the right hon. Gentleman to make up his mind as to whether compensation is to be granted or not.
:I am not aware that the statement referred to is in any way official. I have only seen it in the Press. I am considering the matter, and I hope to decide it at an early date.
As the statement in the Press was over the signature of the gentleman named, would not that be accepted as official and, therefore, will not the right hon. Gentleman take steps to make an early announcement?
It would be very unwise to come to the conclusion that a statement in the Press in that form is entirely official.
May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman has received any intimation at all, officially, from the gentleman named in the Question or his representatives with regard to a claim for compensation?
No, Sir.
May I ask whether this man is a British subject or not?
I must have notice of that question.
Inedible Hog Grease (Imports)
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he can now say what steps have been taken with regard to the supplies of inedible hog grease imported into this country and, after certain treatment, sold as edible lard by a firm in the West of Scotland; whether he is aware that there are considerable stocks of this commodity now in cold storage under embargo by the medical officer of health for Glasgow; and whether any legal steps are to be taken against the firm which is responsible for evading the public health Regulations?
I am aware that there are considerable quantities of inedible grease now in cold storage in Glasgow under the embargo of the medical officer of health of that city. These quantities include the stocks belonging to the firm referred to, the remaining stock at the factory having been removed to Glasgow with the consent of the public health authorities. As regards the last part of the question, the present position in regard to the question of legal proceedings against the firm is that the Scottish Board of Health placed the facts of the case before the local authority of Glasgow, who are considering whether there has been wilful neglect or refusal to comply with the Regulations, and whether the whole circumstances warrant proceedings being taken by them against the importers.
In the event of the local authorities or any other authority whatsoever failing to prosecute this firm, and in the event of no merchant who has been implicated being desirous of having his name mixed up with the Scottish Board of Health, will the right hon. Gentleman undertake a prosecution in the interests of the public?
That is a wholly hypothetical question, and I must consider the situation at the time.
Will the right hon. Gentleman send the papers to the Minister of Health, so that not part of this country south of the Scottish Border shall be treated in a similar way?
Are not all the facts before the right hon. Gentleman? Has he not all the details, and can be explain the reasons for the delay in prosecuting in this case?
The responsibility lies with the local authority. My Department has performed its duty in drawing the attention of the local authority to the circumstances.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Ministry of Health for England has instituted prosecutions of this kind on more than one occasion, but, owing to the slackness in Scotland, there is a danger of this stuff coming over the border to the great detriment of the English consumer?
I must not be taken to agree that there has been slackness, but in any case my Department have taken the necessary and proper steps, and the matter now lies with the local authorities to deal with it.
Education (Expenditure)
asked the President of the Board of Education whether his attention has been called to the considerable variation in the cost per child for elementary education incurred by local authorities; and whether, with a view to preventing unnecessary expenditure, he will draw up a schedule of standard expenditure for typical educational areas as a guide to local educational authorities?
I am sending my hon. Friend a copy of the "Cost per Child" tables published by the Board covering the years 1924–25, 1925–26, and 1926–27; and also copies of Circulars 1388 and 1396, which indicate the standards of expenditure on various services worked out by the Board, in consultation with representatives of the Associations of Local Authorities. Perhaps I may also refer him to the information contained in the annual Memorandum on the Board's Estimates.
Is it not because of the neglect of some authorities to provide the education that the Board itself desires that the differences occur?
No, that seems to me to be a very inadequate explanation of the differences. The differences are due to various causes, and the one fact mentioned by the hon. Member accounts for very few of them.
British Army (Smoke Generators)
asked the Secretary of State for War if he has received a Report from the Commander of the 2nd Infantry Brigade as to the discomfort caused to the civilian population of the Bagshot area by the recent tear-gas attack lasting two hours; and whether the use of gas in a civilian area will be prohibited henceforth?
No gas was used in the Bagshot area. I understand that the 2nd Infantry Brigade during the course of their training used smoke generators, which have a lachrymatory effect but are otherwise harmless, in the Aldershot Command training area, near the Foresters' Arms Hotel on the Aldershot-Church Crockham Road. Unfortunately owing to a change in the wind, the smoke blew back over the road and for 10 minutes passers-by felt the lachrymatory effect. Officers were placed on either side of the cloud to warn civilians that they would suffer inconvenience if they passed through it. Orders have been issued that in future these smoke generators must not be placed within reach of any road or house.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether tear gas or any other kind of gas is now being used for training purposes?
This was smoke and not tear gas.
But is there any tear gas or any other kind of gas being used for training purposes in the British Army?
I do not think that that arises out of the original question.
Post Office
Beam Wireless Services
asked the Postmaster-General the amounts of receipts each year from the beam wireless service since its inception, showing the profit or loss in each year?
The first Imperial beam wireless service, namely, that to Canada, was opened in October, 1926; the Australian service in April, 1927; the South African in July, 1927; and the Indian in September, 1927. There has thus not been one full year's working of the combined services. On the basis of current earnings the gross receipts of the Post Office from the four services may be put at about £470,000 a year, and the profit, before charging depreciation or interest on capital, is at the rate of about £212,000 a year.
Can you derive a profit before you allow for depreciation or interest on capital? Is it not only a surplus?
Telegrams, Sheffield
asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware of the annoyance caused to Sheffield business houses owing to delayed telegrams; whether all telegrams from Sheffield to London are transmitted via Leeds; and, if not, what telegrams are so transmitted; and whether he can state why Sheffield telegrams are dealt with in this way, and how soon a more efficient service may be expected?
All telegrams from Sheffield to London are transmitted direct to the Central Telegraph Office except those for the London Stock Exchange, which are sent through Leeds on the direct wire between Leeds and the Stock Exchange Telegraph Office. The transit time compares favourably with the general average of the inland telegraph service but certain changes are contemplated which will, I hope, further improve the speed of the service.
Police Investigations (Commission of Inquiry)
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he will be able to give the names of the Royal Commission on Police Methods; and whether he can now state how many women will be included?
I must refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave yesterday to a Private Notice Question by the right hon. Member for Platting (Mr. Clynes).
Psychical Research and Spiritualism
asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been drawn to a recent case heard at the Westminster Police Court in which Miss Mercy Phillimore, the secretary of the London Spiritualistic Alliance, and Mrs. Clare Frances Cantlon, a medium, were charged with fortune telling and convicted; and will he consider the appointment of a committee for the purpose of investigating the claims of spiritualism, apart from those of fortune telling, with the object of legalising investigation in psychical research and spiritualism?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative and to the second part in the negative.
Is it not a fact that this decision will greatly hamper the researches and investigations of spiritualism, and is there not some way in which the right hon. Gentleman can expedite that research?
As at present advised on this decision, I do not think it will hamper the object that the hon. Member has in view.
Would the right hon. Gentleman mind going to a fortune teller and finding out how long the Government are going to last?
I can say that without going to any fortune teller.
Government Departments
Industrial Employés (Holiday Pay)
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether consideration has been given to the granting of an annual holiday with pay to Government industrial employés; and, if so, what has been the result?
The question referred to is now under consideration.
Is there any likelihood of a reply being given immediately, seeing that we are to have our own holidays within the next few days?
I cannot say offhand.
Colonial Services (Dominion Candidates)
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can list Dominion citizens in the Colonial Civil Service; and whether he will take any steps to encourage, by propaganda or otherwise, the recruitment of such personnel both for this service and for the Colonial Office?
British subjects in the Dominions are eligible as candidates for appointments in the Colonial Services equally with British subjects elsewhere; and considerable numbers are in fact serving in various Colonies and Protectorates. A special scheme was inaugurated in 1922 to facilitate consideration of applications for such appointments from graduates of Canadian Universities, and I am hopeful of extending similar facilities to candidates in other Dominions. The selection of administrative staff for the Colonial Office in common with other Depart- meats of the Civil Service of Great Britain is effected by means of an annual competitive examination in this country; British subjects from the Dominions are fully eligible as candidates.
Empire Marketing Board
asked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether, in view of the proportion of expenditure by the Empire Marketing Board which is absorbed by salaries and wages, he proposes that an investigation should be made into expenditure on the salaries, wages, and travelling expenses of the staff employed by the Board?
Such an investigation has, I understand, been recommended by the Select Committee on Estimates in their Second Report just issued, and the matter will be carefully considered in due course, together with other recommendations made by the Committee.
Palestine
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, before resigning his position as High Commissioner for Palestine, Lord Plumer made any suggestions for the improvement of financial methods that concern Palestine and the Colonial Office; and whether he proposes to inquire into these suggestions?
It is not correct to say that Lord Plumer is resigning his position as High Commissioner for Palestine. He is retiring in the ordinary course on the completion of the period of three years for which he accepted the appointment. I am not sure that I understand what my hon. Friend means by "suggestions for the improvement of financial methods." I have, of course, been in constant communication with the High Commissioner, throughout Lord Plumer's term of office, on questions relating to the finances of Palestine.
Were there not certain suggestions made in regard to the taxation of people in Transjordania?
In any discussions there are all sorts of points connected with Transjordania.
Trinidad
Constabulary Force (Natives)
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies under what regulation coloured members of the constabulary force of Trinidad are precluded from rising beyond the rank of sergeant-major in the force?
I am not aware of the existence of any such regulation.
Sugar-Cane Farming
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in view of the growing dissatisfaction amongst the cane farmers in Trinidad, he will appoint an independent commission to inquire and report on the cane-farming industry in that Colony?
The grievances of the sugar-cane farmers following on the reduction of the inflated prices which ruled in the years directly after the War led to the appointment by the Governor in 1925 of a Committee under the chairmanship of the Director of Agriculture, to consider and report on the measures required to promote good relations and full co-operation between the growers and manufacturers. I am inviting the Governor of Trinidad to furnish me with an appreciation of the present position in the light of the Report which has now been furnished by the Committee.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say how soon that is likely to be?
The Report has now been furnished to the Governor, and no doubt I shall get very soon his views on the recommendations in the Report.
Ocean Island (Guano Phosphate)
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has given consideration to the repeated special representations made concerning the Gilbert Islands, Western Pacific; and, if so, whether he is advising the Government to appoint a commission for the purpose of conducting a thorough and impartial investiga- tion into the exploitation of the guano phosphate on Paanopa, Ocean Island, in that group?
I have received from time to time representations from a former subordinate official in the Gilbert and Ellice Islands, who has for a number of years addressed communications to successive Secretaries of State. I see no reason for holding any special investigation into charges which in the opinion of my predecessors were baseless.
Will not the right hon. Gentleman consider that ample reparation should now be made to the natives, who have been so grossly exploited, and that a larger share of the great profits derived from the guano should be available for the Exchequer of this group of islands?
No, Sir; I cannot admit the statement that the hon. Member has made. The whole matter was looked into many years ago by more than one Secretary of State, and the charges suggested by certain gentlemen were regarded as wholly unsubstantiated.
Is it not the case that there has not been an actual investigation into the point which I have raised in my questions?
Yes, successive Secretaries of State have investigated the question.
West Africa (Gin Imports)
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that large quantities of gin for which Britain is responsible are now being exported to the Gold Coast to the detriment of the people; and whether he will take any action to lessen the danger arising from this practice.
I would refer the hon. Member to my answer to the hon. and gallant Member for Central Run (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) on 26th July.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the answer was absolutely unsatisfactory.
No, Sir.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say how Britain is responsible for the gin?
Irish Free State (Ex-British Civil Servants)
asked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether the Irish Free State Government have yet paid to Messrs. Wigg and Cochrane, the successful appellants in the recent Privy Council case, the full amount of the compensation to which they were declared to be entitled under the decision of the Privy Council of the 3rd May, 1927.
I understand that payment has not been made up to the present, but all the matters arising out of the Report of the Judicial Committee will be examined in consultation with the Free State Government.
Is it not a fact that it was agreed, and that the right hon. Gentleman stated, that these two individuals, in any case, should be paid in full; is it not now a year and a quarter since they obtained judgment; does not the right hon. Gentleman think that something ought to be done in their case; and will he assure the House that interest will be paid on any amounts received by them, as from the date on which they obtained judgment?
The matter will be expedited as much as possible, but I cannot give an assurance off-hand.
Is this not obviously a matter of fair play; and will the right hon. Gentleman give some assurance that he will press for the payment of interest on the amount which these men receive, in respect of the year and a half, during which they have been out of the money?
Will the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that he will have this matter definitely settled before the General Election?
asked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether the ex-British civil servants in Ireland who retired or were discharged under Article 10 of the treaty, and who are resident outside the Irish Free State, have been paid such portion of the annual compensation allowance which is based on the cost of living in accordance with the cost-of-living figures in the Irish Free State, as was admitted to be their right in the course of the hearing of the Wigg and Cochrane case before the Irish Supreme Court?
I understand that payment of the Free State cost-of-living bonus to transferred officers who retired or were discharged under Article 10 of the Articles of Agreement, and are resident outside the Free State, was agreed to by the Free State Government, following the hearing of the appeal in the Wigg and Cochrane case before the Supreme Court of the Irish Free State. It was, however, stated in the Dail on 21st March by the Irish Free State Minister for Finance that payment on the higher Free State cost-of-living basis has not been made pending a final settlement of the general issues raised in the course of the Wigg and Cochrane litigation.
Does my right hon. Friend recognise his responsibility for seeing that fair play is given to these two ex-British civil servants, and will he press for the payment of compensation to them, on the Free State cost-of-living basis, which was admitted to be fair by the Free State Government themselves?
The answer covers the point. The Free State Government admitted the claim, but held up payment pending a final settlement of the whole matter.
Empire Settlement
asked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether the arrangements agreed to between his Department and the Salvation Army relative to the grant of assisted passages to certain persons desirous of emigrating to Australia makes provision for such assistance to be granted to approved persons over the age of 18; and will he make public the full details of the arrangements concluded with the Salvation Army so that persons desirous of emigrating may be aware of the scheme agreed upon?
The arrangements with the Salvation Army do not provide for the grant of assisted passages to persons desiring to proceed to Australia. Such assistance for approved persons is available under the Government assisted passage scheme, particulars of which will be found in Appendix IV to the Report of the Oversea Settlement Committee for 1927, Cmd. 3088. The arrangements made with the Salvation Army under the Empire Settlement Act provide for the grant of assistance upon an agreed scale towards the cost of reception, settlement, and after-care in all cases; and by way of grant and loan towards the cost of passages to Canada in a limited number of cases. Agreements provide also for the testing of boys at the Salvation Army farm at Hadleigh, Essex, for settlement overseas, and for the training of boys in Australia and New Zealand; and for the provision of outfits for the boys and their subsequent after-care in all cases. Full information in regard to these arrangements is given in the handbooks published by the Oversea Settlement Committee. Publicity is given to them by the Salvation Army.
Are young men not available for assistance under this agreement with the Salvation Army?
I should have notice about the exact age.
But has the right hon. Gentleman forgotten the answer which he gave the other day to the Noble Lord the Member for Southampton (Lord Apsley); and will he kindly read the two answers and see how one contradicts the other?
As far as I know, assistance is given to young men under this scheme.
Is that in accordance with what the right hon. Gentleman said just now?
asked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs if he can give any estimate of the total cost of training, transport, equipment, &c., and other expenses involved in training in this country a man and settling him and his family on the land in Canada and New Zealand, respectively, taking the family as consisting of man, wife and four children?
The total cost of passages to Canada and New Zealand of a family consisting of man and wife with one child over 12 years of age and three children under 12 years of age would be Canada (Toronto) £66 10s., New Zealand £148 10s., but towards this sum it is open to His Majesty's Government and the Dominion Government concerned in suitable cases jointly to make a free grant of £59 10s. in the case of Canada and £126 10s. in the case of New Zealand. No arrangements have yet been made for the training of families in this country. Apart from passage expenses no considerable expenditure would be involved in settling a family as farm workers in either Canada or New Zealand. If, however, the hon. Member's question has reference to the cost of settling families upon farms of their own, that is, under existing schemes in Canada, about £1,000, towards which His Majesty's Government contributes a recoverable advance not exceeding on the average £300. There is at present no Government scheme for the settlement of persons from this country on the land in New Zealand.
Canadian Harvest (British Miners)
asked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether arrangements have been completed for 10,000 men to go from this country to work in the Canadian harvest; what proportion will go from the mining areas; and if it is possible for him to give any further information to the House?
I propose, with the permission of the House, to make a brief statement in reply to the questions asked by the hon. Member for Rothwell (Mr. Lunn).
Arrangements have been made, in consultation with the Canadian Government, under which 10,000 men are to be assisted in going to Canada from this country for work in connection with the Canadian harvest, which is now beginning. By an agreement with the shipping and railway companies, special reduced rates of £12 out and £12 back, i.e., half the ordinary fare, are offered from the port of embarkation in this country to and from Winnipeg. All who go must be used to hard manual work, and should, as a rule, be between 18 and 40 years of age. Single men are preferred as no provision can be made for the maintenance of families. Before embarkation all men will undergo medical and civil examination by the Canadian authorities. The latest date for sailing is the 18th of August. The average rate of wages for harvest work in Canada is about £3 to £5 a week with keep.
The Canadian Government have expressed a special wish that the men should be recruited in the mining areas, and His Majesty's Government in Great Britain are offering the following special help to suitable men in cases in which they cannot find the cost of the outward journey, namely, a grant of £5 paid to the companies towards the cost of the outward passage and an advance arranged through the companies up to a maximum of £10 to cover the balance of the sea and rail journeys to the destination in Canada, as well as the cost of food on the Canadian railways. The Dominion Government will cooperate with the railway companies in finding work for men at the close of the harvest, but for those who wish to return there will be, as I have explained, special reduced rates.
Detailed arrangements for recruiting, medical examination, etc., have been agreed with the Dominion representatives in London who, like the shipping lines and all other interested parties, have given valuable help in adjusting procedure to meet this emergency traffic. The scheme will begin to operate as soon as final instructions are issued by the Dominion authorities at Ottawa to their officers in London. His Majesty's Government in Great Britain are greatly indebted to His Majesty's Government in Canada for the readiness with which they have co-operated in these arrangements.
How long are these men likely to be employed?
The harvest lasts right through September and, I think, October; and, as I have explained, arrangements will be made to find work for as many as possible of these men in Canada afterwards.
Are arrangements being made through the Ministry of Labour and the Employment Exchanges in South Wales to bring this scheme before the South Wales miners who are out of employment?
All arrangements have been made, if I may say so, admirably.
Is the scheme to be confined to miners?
The scheme is not confined to miners, but every effort will be made to bring it to the notice of men in the mining districts and, as far as possible, enable miners to make use of it.
Are we to understand from the right hon. Gentleman's original statement, that these men are expected to be employed for approximately eight weeks; and that the total cost of the outward and inward journeys will be £28 or £29?
No, Sir. The total cost of that type of man will be £7 outwards, and £12 back, or £19 altogether. He may also get another £10 advanced to him, and, during the eight weeks, he will be able to earn, over and above his keep, £24 to £40.
Is it not a fact that people have been sent out to Canada under existing schemes, that there are thousands already tramping the country who cannot find work, and that I myself am trying to get people brought back from Canada who cannot find any work there at all?
There is undoubtedly a certain amount of unemployment in parts of Canada. There is also a very great demand in other parts of Canada for workers for the harvest, and in those parts of Canada there will also be a very considerable demand, either on the land or elsewhere, to enable those men to stay on.
How is it proposed to recover the loan that is made to these men? Is it proposed to deduct it from their wages weekly?
No; I think the arrangements for recovery will be made largely through the shipping companies.
Divisions
I wish to raise a matter of Order for your Ruling, Mr. Speaker. I wish to ask if you are aware that last night, while Division No. 357 was in progress, two Members of this House forced their way into the "Aye" Lobby after the doors were locked, damaging the woodwork of the doors. I wish also to ask whether you will cause inquiry to be made into this disorderly behaviour, and, if necessary, secure that the names of the two Members concerned shall not be included in the Division Lists.
May I remind you, Mr. Speaker, that several Members helped to push these Members through the door?
Naturally, I can but deprecate any proceeding so disorderly as the one described by the hon. Member, but at the same time notice should be taken of any irregularity in a Division immediately after the Division has taken place, and beyond expressing my regret that anything of the kind should have occurred, and deprecating such action, I cannot take any proceeding on it at this later stage.
Are the two Members in question entitled to have their names recorded in the Division Lists?
Notice should have been taken of such action immediately after the Division took place.
May I put it to you, Sir, that this incident occurred in the last few minutes of the Division, that it was noticed by Members in the "No" Lobby, and that it was impossible for any Member to get down here, get a hat, and raise a point of Order before it was too late for the incident to be reported to you? As a result of that, what can be done to deal with a case like this, when there is no time to deal with it under the ordinary procedure?
Is it not a fact that the door was unlocked to let them through, and that I saw it?
No!
I say "Yes"; I saw it.
May we ask you, Mr. Speaker, to give an expression of dis- approval of this disorderly conduct on the part of Members of the gentlemanly party?
I express disapproval of disorderly conduct coming from whatever quarter.
Questions to Ministers
I want to ask you, Mr. Speaker, with reference to the supplementary question put to-day to Question No. 43 by the hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Hurd) and to the reply of the hon. and gallant Member who represents the Department of Overseas Trade, in which a reference was made to the hon. Member for Anglesey (Sir R. Thomas), as to whether it is not customary, when specific reference is intended to be made to an hon. Member's action on a previous question or statement, to give that hon. Member notice of one's intention in order that he may be in his place and be able to defend himself?
On that point of Order. Is it not a fact that those allegations were made by the hon. Member at Question
Time in this House from his place and that this question had specific reference to that?
When special reference is made to another hon. Member. it is customary to give him notice, though, as I understand that this was a supplementary question, I think it would be quite wrong to anticipate supplementary questions by giving notice of them.
May I assume then from your answer that in that case the matter is simply left to the courtesy of the hon. Member who put the supplementary question?
Business of the House
Motion made, and Question put,
"That the Proceeedings on Government Business be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[ The Prime Minister. ]
The House divided: Ayes, 199; Noes, 109; Noes, 108
Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William Nuttall, Ellis Styles, Captain H. Walter Kindersley, Major Guy M. Penny, Frederick George Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser King, Commodore Henry Douglas Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Lamb, J. Q. Perkins, Colonel E. K. Templeton, W. P. Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Pownall, Sir Assheton Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Preston, William Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey Price, Major C. W. M. Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- Locker-Lampson, Com. O.(Handsw'th) Radford, E. A. Tinne, J. A. Loder, J. de V. Raine, Sir Walter Titchfield, Major the Marquess of Long, Major Eric Ramsden, E. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Lougher, Lewis Rawson, Sir Cooper Wallace, Captain D. E. Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. Lumley, L. R. Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) Warrender, Sir Victor MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) McLean, Major A. Ropner, Major L. Watts, Sir Thomas Macmillan, Captain H. Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. Winby, Colones, L. P. Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) Salmon, Major I. Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Makins, Brigadier-General E. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Womersley, W. J. Malone, Major P. B. Sandeman, N. Stewart Wood, E. (Chester, Stalyb'ge & Hyde) Margesson, Captain D. Sandon, Lord Woodcock, Colonel H. C. Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Wragg, Herbert Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Shepperson, E. W. Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Smithers, Waldron Major Sir George Hennessy and Nelson, Sir Frank Sprot, Sir Alexander Major Sir William Cope. Newman. Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.
NOES. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Grundy, T. W. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Riley, Ben Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W. Bromwich) Ammon, Charles George Hardle, George D. Sakiatvala, Shapurji Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Harris, Percy A. Salter, Dr. Alfred Baker, Walter Hayday, Arthur Scrymgeour, E. Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Sexton, James Barr, J. Hirst, G. H. Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Batey, Joseph Hore-Belisha, Leslie Shiels, Dr. Drummond Beckett, John (Gateshead) Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Smillie, Robert Briant, Frank John, William (Rhondda, West) Stamford, T. W. Bromley, J. Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Stephen, Campbell Brown, Ernest (Leith) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Strauss, E. A. Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Sullivan, Joseph Buchanan, G. Jones, W. N. (Carmarthen) Sutton, J. E. Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel Kelly, W. T. Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Cape, Thomas Kennedy, T. Thurtie, Ernest Charleton, H. C. Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Tinker, John Joseph Cluse, W. S. Lansbury, George Tomlinson, R. P. Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Lawson, John James Varley, Frank B. Cove, W. G. Lee, F. Viant, S. P. Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Lindley, F. W. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Crawfurd, H. E. Longbottom, A. W. Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Lowth, T. Wellock, Wilfred Day, Harry Lunn, William Westwood, J. Dennison, R. Mackinder, W. Whiteley, W. Dunnico, H. Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Wiggins, William Martin Fenby, T. D. March, S. Williams, David (Swansea, E.) Gardner, J. P. Maxton, James Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly) George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd Montague, Frederick Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Gibbins, Joseph Murnin, H. Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) Gillett, George M. Oliver, George Harold Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Gosling, Harry Owen, Major G. Windsor, Walter Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Palin, John Henry Wright, W. Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Paling, W. Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Ponsonby, Arthur TELLERS FOR THE NOES— Groves. T. Potts, John S. Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Hayes
Message from the Lords
That they have agreed to,—
Naval Prize Bill,
Rag Flock Act (1911) Amendment Bill,
Merchant Shipping (Line-Throwing Appliance) Bill, without Amendment.
Racecourse Betting Bill,
Rating and Valuation (Apportionment) Bill,
Criminal Law Amendment Bill, with Amendments.
Orders of the Day
Supply
[20TH ALLOTTED DAY.]
REPORT [31ST JULY.]
Resolutions reported:
Civil Estimates, 1928
Class V
1. "That a sum, not exceeding £13,774,025, be granted to His Majesty to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1929, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Ministry of Health; including Grants and other Expenses in connection with Housing, Grants to Local Authorities, etc., in connection with Public Health Services, Grants-in-Aid in respect of Benefits and Expenses of Administration under the National Health Insurance Acts, certain Expenses in connection with the Widows', Orphans', and Old Age Contributory Pensions Act, 1925, and certain Special Services."
2. "That a sum, not exceeding £2,037,515, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1929, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Scottish Board of Health, including Grants and other Expenses in connection with Housing, Grants to Local Authorities, etc., in connection with Public Health Services, Grants in Aid of the Highlands and Islands Medical Service, Grants-in-Aid in respect of Benefits and Expenses of Administration under the National Health Insurance Acts, certain Expenses in connection with the Widows', Orphans', and Old Age Contributory Pensions Act, 1925, and certain Special Services."
Class IV
3. "That a sum, not exceeding £3,353,616, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1929, for Public Education in Scotland, and for the Royal Scottish Museum, Edinburgh, including a Grant-in-Aid."
Class VI
4. "That a sum, not exceeding £350,179, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1929, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Board of Agriculture for Scotland, including Grants for Agricultural Education and Training, Loans to Co-operative Societies, and certain Grants-in-Aid."
Class I
5."That a sum, not exceeding £1,387,875, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1929, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class I of the Estimates for Civil Services."—[ For Services included in this Class, see OFFICIAL REPORT, 31st July, 1928; cols. 2103–4.]
Class II
6. "That a sum, not exceeding £3,407,362, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1929, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class II of the Estimates for Civil Services." —[ For Services included in this Class, see OFFICIAL REPORT, 31st July, 1928; cols. 2107–8.]
Class III
7. "That a sum, not exceeding £6,193,335, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1929, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class III of the Estimates for Civil Services."—[ For Services included in this Class, see OFFICIAL REPORT, 31st July, 1928; cols. 2111–4.]
Class IV
8. "That a sum, not exceeding £27,387,433, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1929, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class IV of the Estimates for Civil Services."—[ For Services included in this Class, see OFFICIAL REPORT, 31st July, 1928; col. 2117.]
Class V
9. "That a sum, not exceeding £26,395,101, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1929, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class V of the Estimates for Civil Services."—[ For Services included in this Class, see OFFICIAL REPORT, 31st July, 1928; col. 2118.]
Class VI
10. "That a sum, not exceeding £6,510,125, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1929, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class VI of the Estimates for Civil Services."—[ For Services included in this Class, see OFFICIAL REPORT, 31st July, 1928; cols. 2121–2.]
11. "That a sum, not exceeding £2,977,627, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1929, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class VII of the Estimates for Civil Services."—[ For Services included in this Class, see OFFICIAL REPORT, 31st July, 1928; col. 2125.]
Class VIII
12. "That a sum, not exceeding £36,526,411, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1929, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class VIII of the Estimates for Civil Services."—[ For Services included in this Class, see OFFICIAL REPORT, 31st July, 1928; cols. 2125–6.]
Class IX
13. "That a sum, not exceeding £185,390, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1929, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class IX of the Estimates for Civil Services."—[ For Services included in this Class, see OFFICIAL REPORT, 31st July, 1928; col. 2126.]
Revenue Departments Estimates, 1928
14. "That a sum, not exceeding £42,591,050, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1929, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in the Estimates for Revenue Departments."—[ For Services included in this Class, see OFFICIAL REPORT, 31st July, 1928; col. 2127.]
Navy Estimates, 1928
15. "That a sum, not exceeding £36,987,300, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1929, for Expenditure in respect of the Navy Services."—[ For Services included in this Class, see OFFICIAL REPORT, 31st July, 1928; cols. 2127–8.]
Army Estimates, 1928
16. "That a sum, not exceeding £20,846,100, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1929, for Expenditure in respect of the Army Services (including Ordnance Factories)."—[ For Services included in this Class, see OFFICIAL REPORT, 31st July, 1928; cols. 2131–2.]
Air Estimates, 1928
17. "That a sum, not exceeding £2,871,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1929, for Expenditure in respect of the Air Force Services."—[ For Services included in this Class, see OFFICIAL REPORT, 31st July, 1928; cols. 2135–6.]
First Resolution read a Second time.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
4.0 p.m.
The subjects that we propose to discuss this afternoon are of great importance to a very considerable number of citizens of this country. I propose to discuss the reduction in grants which the right hon. Gentleman is making, especially in regard to milk; also housing in relation to slums, and questions connected with relief. Other hon. Friends of mine will also be discussing these questions. I should like to say, at the outset, that I think it is rather in the natural order of things that the right hon. Genleman, who is a kind of descendant of those who ruled in this country in what is known as "the hungry forties," a period when the workers of this land first enjoyed the tortures—I think that is the only word for it—of the mixed workhouse as described by Dickens, Disraeli and others—I think it is in the natural order of things that he should be the Minister to-day to reintroduce the sort of administration which many of us thought would never come back
The right hon. Gentleman, outside this House, makes eloquent speeches full of sympathy for the victims of bad attention and lack of nourishment during times of maternity. Only the other day there was a public appeal made in regard to the prevention of what some of us consider is the social murder of women at times when they are giving birth to children, and the right hon. Gentleman, who is always ready to give lip service to anything people propose in mitigation of those evils, when he comes to administer his office, is the one Minister after Lord Melchett, who started the policy, who has taken upon himself to do his very utmost to reverse everything that the late Lord Rhondda hoped the institution of the Ministry of Health would accomplish. It has been left to the right hon. Gentleman to say to very poor local authorities who need the grant from the public Exchequer more than others, and are heavily burdened by the rates: "Well, you can give this milk if you please, but, of course, you must pay for it. We have been obliged to make some economy somewhere, and the economy we propose to make is an economy at the expense of the babies and the nursing and expectant mothers of your district."
About that there is no question whatsoever. The right hon. Gentleman has cut down the milk allowance on which he will pay the grant in the borough which I represent from £6,033 to £3,233, and he justifies that on the score of economy. In a speech, which, I think, was correctly reported, he laid it down that, of course, there are only a few places where this cut operates, because other places do not need so much. I should have thought the right hon. Gentleman would have understood that where there is most poverty, where rates are highest, there the Government ought to give the most assistance; instead of which he has said to places like Shoreditch, Poplar, West Ham and elsewhere, they must halve their expenditure. There is another side to this which I want to mention incidentally. Every time the Minister makes any suggestion of this sort, we are always in danger of what the auditor may do to us when he comes to audit the accounts. The auditor will be able now to say to the Poplar Borough Council, "The Minister of Health reckons that you ought to be spending only the sum that he has laid down, £3,233," and I am perfectly certain that the friends of the right hon. Gentleman in our district, the Municipal Alliance, will endeavour to compel the auditor to follow the lines the right hon. Gentleman has laid down.
Finally, I want to say to the right hon. Gentleman that I do not understand his attitude in supporting outside the appeal that has been made by the highest and lowest, in the land for something to be done to stop the deaths of women at a time when they are child-bearing, and his cutting down of this particular grant at this particular time. He says that he does it because he is called upon to economise. I say that he ought not to economics at the cost of human life and suffering, and that these women and children need this milk. He knows per- fectly well that the institution of the whole of this piece of social work was brought about because of the horrible conditions that were revealed during the War and at the end of the War, and it was hoped by this means that, instead of having so many C3 citizens, the population would be very much more healthy. No one can get away from the fact that the institution of this policy in my own district of Poplar and the grants received up to the present have resulted in halving the death rate among babies, and has also considerably reduced the death rate amongst mothers. Although it is too soon to know what will eventuate from this cutting down of supplies, it is certain that if the Poplar people do not themselves shoulder this burden, and add to their already overburdened rates, the mothers of the children will suffer as they did previously to 1919. The figures at that time and the figures at the present time make that abundantly clear.
Then I want to say a few words about housing and the shortage in regard to the country generally, but mainly in regard to the East End. The right hon. Gentleman has boasted time and time again that they have built 1,000,000 houses, and he has practically said that the situation now is quite satisfactory.
indicated dissent.
The right hon. Gentleman says that he has not said that. I do not know why the subsidy has been cut down. Perhaps I am in the same position with the right hon. Gentleman as the right hon. Gentleman is with me. I do not understand him. I have heard from the right hon. Gentleman and his assistant in this House how gratified they are that a million houses have been built, and how thoroughly well we are getting on with housing. I would point out to the right hon. Gentleman that the districts that need attention most of all are the slum districts. I do not dispute that something has been done, but to all intents and purposes the slum problem remains just as it was. I do not believe that if the right hon. Gentleman made an investigation, either in my own district or anywhere else, he would find that more than a few thousand people have been taken out of slums into better conditions.
I will tell the right hon. Gentleman why, and he will appreciate it straight away. The London County Council have built very extensively indeed, but the rents of their houses are almost prohibitive, when the cost of travelling backwards and forwards to London has to be put upon the rents. The right hon. Gentleman knows that as well as I do. He also knows that the London County Council puts a bar up to people whose incomes are below a certain level; and as wages are continually going down, the number of people who are available for the County Council houses grows less each year. The London County Council is taking out of London the lower middle class people who work in offices and shops and who are teachers and so on, and the better paid artisans, leaving districts like the East End and South-East London full only of a population who are obliged to live on very low wages indeed, and who, because of their wages, are not allowed to occupy the houses that are outside the county boundary.
If the right hon. Gentleman disputes that, I would point out to him that there are still, in spite of all he has done, 1,750,000 dwelling places which consist of only two rooms in this country, and the overwhelming majority of those are to be found in districts like the East End and South-East London and in big industrial towns. Even in Scotland up to last year that kind of tenement house was being built. That shows, quite clearly in my judgment, that you have not in a general way really done very much to deal with the problem that people talk about most of all, that is the problem of the shims. It is a very difficult question, but its only difficulty is that we will not spend money on it. If we saved the cost of a dozen big Dreadnoughts and cruisers, and sunk the money on clearing away the slums and putting up decent dwellings, we should begin to tackle the problem, but we do not begin to tackle the problem by building houses on the very sites which we clear and then letting them at rents that the people cannot afford. Already the problem of the rents at Becontree is creating something of slumdom in some of the parts of that estate.
I want to call the right hon. Gentleman's attention to my own district. I am here, of course, as a representative of my district, and I do not want to put it as any worse or better than anywhere else, but I think that it is typical, and because I know it so well, I want to put the facts to him. We have registered at this moment 2,500 families who want accommodation. I have people come to my house day after day whose families are split up. It used to be said that we Socialists wanted to break up family life, but we do not need to wait for Socialism for that. Family life is broken up in the East End of London in very many directions. You will find a father living in one place, the mother and a child or two in another place, and one or two children somewhere else. The stories one hears of people living under these conditions are perfectly pitiful. Further than this the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for St. Albans (Lieut.-Colonel Fremantle) will appreciate that the overcrowding produces a very considerable amount of vice and ill-health in our district.
We have such a problem that, honestly, we do not know what to do with it. It may be said by the right hon. Gentleman that he is not responsible, but he is responsible in seeing that the county council does its work. It is 25 years since Mr. Will Crooks in this House called attention to a certain area in Poplar, and yet that area is still as it was then. Nine years ago we ourselves represented 10 areas to the London County Council, and the right hon. Gentleman's Department. These are the places: Bakers Arms: Nothing done. It is a district where the houses were built 160 or 200 years ago, and some of them are of wood. The place has been condemned ever since I have lived in Bow, which is over 42 years. The right hon. Gentleman smiles. I wish he had to live in one of them.
The hon. Gentleman said that they had been condemned ever since he lived there.
The right hon. Gentleman means that it looks as though I condemned them when I went there? Well, my grammar perhaps is not as good as that of the right hon. Gentleman, but I do not mind that, and I do not mind his having his joke about it. I thought that he was smiling because they were condemned all those years ago. It is a condemnation of him and his Depart- ment that they have not been cleared off the face of the earth years ago. The other places are: Bromley Place: Nothing done. Orchard House: This is a place with which the right hon. Gentleman is going to do something simply because we have had a flood. We have had to have a visitation from Providence before anything could happen there. They are places that have been reported upon by the medical officer of health as unfit, and we have had to wait until the unfortunate people were practically washed out before we have been able to get the authorities to move at all. High Street, Poplar: Nothing done. Lower North Street: We have dealt with that ourselves. Sophia Street: We have only pulled down a few houses. We are supposed, according to the county council, to deal with that ourselves. Penny-fields: Nothing done. All that has been done by the county council is to put up flats in Binchfield Street. Bridge Road, near the Isle of Dogs: Nothing done. Bradshaw Cottages: Again the flood is going to save the people there. They have to thank God that there has been a flood, because at last, after nine years, they are to have the houses dealt with.
That means that the people who live in those areas—and I have only given some of them; there are many others—have to continue to live under fearfully unhealthy conditions. From the point of view of the right hon. Gentleman and those who talk about economy, this is not economy, because, as he ought to know, from those districts most of the sickness in the borough comes owing to the overcrowded and unhealthy conditions in which the people live. What does the right hon. Gentleman propose to do about it? It is all very well to say what Poplar ought to do for itself. Poplar of itself has built on very nearly every bit of unoccupied land in the borough, and I think the right hon. Gentleman will agree that Poplar Council has done everything that is humanely possible in regard to housing. We have taken little bits of land here and there, and by the end of this year or the middle of next, we shall have erected from 600 to 700 cottages and tenements. By doing that we have burdened ourselves up with rates, but we have done it in order to ease the situation. We have not, however, been able to re-house those in the slums or to deal with the slums as such. The people who go into the houses which we have built have to be in the main the same kind of tenant that the London County Council want to go to Becontree. We have to get the rent, and we can only have the people who can in general pay the rent.
We shall never get the problem of slums dealt with, and we shall never get the slum dweller out of the slums, until the right hon. Gentleman, or someone occupying his position, takes the matter in hand' and public money is definitely guaranteed, not as a loan, but to be spent in exactly the same way that money would be spent on a warship, and it must be spent in order to provide cheap accommodation. It is no use continuing to say that you are building houses for the people who need re-housing, because I can see when I go to Becontree and to our Isle of Dogs estate, and in and out of the tenements, signs of overcrowding already, although there are stringent bylaws against over-crowding. The continued reduction in wages, however, makes it impossible for tenants to pay the rents that have to be charged if they are to be anything like economic rents. I would point out that a slum does not necessarily mean a court or an alley; you can have a slum in the widest road in any town. I have seen some of the worst slums in the City of Dublin in the very fine squares of which that city has so many. I recommend the right hon. Gentleman himself to go and see some of these East End areas where we have put up the houses, and he will then understand how they are beginning to be overcrowded, and how the problems of rent and transport is vitiating a good deal of what is of value in regard to these houses.
I always try to say what I think about the right hon. Gentleman and his administration. I think that he is the most reactionary Minister whom we have had at the Ministry of Health. About his Department I want to say that since we have been dealing with them for 10 years, so far as our 600 houses and tenements are concerned, we are as grateful as the right hon. Gentleman will consider we ought to be for anything that the Department has done for us; but what we strongly protest against is that boroughs such as Poplar, poor and with low rateable value, and with heavy rates because of the low rateable value, should be left with this problem on their hands, and that the right hon. Gentleman does not bring pressure to bear upon the London County Council to make them do their duty in regard to these boroughs. The areas that we scheduled nine years ago, and, others that we scheduled many years before, ought to have been dealt with long ago. It is because they have not been dealt with that I am asking the right hon. Gentleman to take the matter up, and that is one of the reasons why I wish to move a reduction of his salary. This is his Department's Vote generally, but I would like to take it off his salary, so that he would feel it.
I am sorry that I shall not be able to accept that Amendment to the Motion now before the House, because I have already put the Question, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution." Had I known that the hon. Member was going to move an Amendment, I should not have put that Question. Had he put his name on the Paper to move an Amendment, I should have known. As it is, it would not now be in Order to move an Amendment.
It is quite all right; we will vote against the lot. That is quite easy. We should have put down an Amendment, but it was not intended that the Vote should go through last night. This was done by the people who arrange things behind the Speaker's Chair, or in little out of the way places. This is an ordinary Supply day, but it is the Report of Supply, and that makes a difference. As I say, we will vote against everything concerning the right hon. Gentleman's Department, in order to show what we think of it, and we would very much like to vote against the right hon. Gentleman's salary, in order to push the responsibility on to him personally. I mean that; I am not saying it as a joke, because I am now going to deal with a subject which is worse even than the housing question. His attitude towards housing is bad enough, but in 'the matter of Poor Law relief I think the position he has taken up is perfectly unjustifiable. He is the Minister under whose administration we are bringing back the corn mill and stone-breaking, and I have no doubt if he is allowed to get away with it, we shall have the return of all the penal provisions which were abolished some years ago.
Who abolished them?
All I know is that they are not in use, and when a thing is not in use I should say it is abolished.
What about oakum-picking
You abolished oakum-picking, because we worried you till you did. You would not have done it of your own volition. The right hon. Gentleman knows that we worried him until at last he was ashamed to admit any longer that that was a task; but the right hon. Gentleman has reintroduced something much worse, and that is the corn mill, and he has also reintroduced stone-breaking. In order that I might compare things, I put a question to his very versatile colleague the Home Secretary as to what was happening in prisons, and he told me that stone-breaking, stone-pounding, oakum-picking and the treadmill had all been wiped out of prison life. Occasionally there are some stones to be broken, apparently when they want them for a road, but the tasks I have named are not imposed as a punishment. On whom does the right hon. Gentleman impose these tasks? Not on criminals or semi-criminals, but on people whom the Prime Minister said the other day were decent, honest Englishmen whom every one of us ought to want to help. When these people come to the Poor Law the right hon. Gentleman takes it upon himself, through his inspectors and through his auditors, to compel boards of guardians to stop giving outdoor relief and, instead, to offer men and women the workhouse.
I want to say a word about the inspectorate. I have been interested in inspectors ever since I served on the Royal Commission, because I then discovered that no one who has served in the Poor Law can ever hope to become an inspector. I think there was once a ewe lamb, from Leeds or Bradford, who did become an inspector, but, apart from him, the inspectorate is manned in a way which I do not understand. I asked the right hon. Gentleman the other day whether any of those inspectors had ever had any previous experience and the right hon. Gentleman said "No." What is their function? The duty they are supposed to carry out is to go round and advise the guardians how they—the guardians—can best do their job; and the people you choose for that work, and to whom you pay salaries of from £600 to £800 or £900 a year, are gentlemen who do not know anything at all about it. Every one of them has to be trained by the boards of guardians. Every one of them has to get his experience with the boards of guardians? Why do I call attention to this? Not because I have any grudge against or anything to say personally or impersonally about any one of them. I only know two or three of them, and they always treat us like men should treat one another.
I call attention to this because the right hon. Gentleman has started a plan of employing them as kind of super-detectives. He sends them round to various boards. One of them went to Manchester some time ago to draw up a report, and another one went to report upon Bermondsey. They go round investigating different cases. I would like the right hon. Gentleman to defend that system, and tell me how it is that these inspectors go around as cross-visitors against the cross-visitors of the guardians and the relieving officers and superintendent relieving officers of the guardians. One has only to read the reports which they prepare to see how totally ignorant they are of what they are writing about. They pick out a few cases, just as the right hon. Gentleman himself selects a few cases, in which guardians have been deceived, and then condemn the whole administration, as if anyone in his senses could imagine that any board, even a board of super-men like the right hon. Gentleman himself, would not sometimes be deceived if dealing with 10,000 cases. Every board of guardians is deceived. But the inspectors are backed up by the auditor. I asked the right hon. Gentleman the other day whether it was a fact that he had given orders to the auditor or to his inspectors that in future boards of guardians were not to ignore the 7s. 6d. from national health insurance which a person might be receiving, or the sum of 5s. from a friendly society. The question was answered by the right hon. Gentleman's assistant, who said:
It is not my auditor.
Well, the auditor for whom you are responsible.
indicated dissent.
Somebody has to be responsible for him. This House passed the Audit Act giving an auditor a power which enables him to browbeat boards of guardians and compel them to adopt a policy which they do not want to adopt. This auditor told me myself—it is not something I have heard at second hand—that in assessing the relief to be given to an individual we must take into account the 7s. 6d., or any other money, from a friendly society. When I quoted the Act of Parliament, he said, "I cannot help that. If you do not take into account those sums, then you will be surcharged." The right hon. Gentleman may say that even if we are surcharged we have our remedy, but he knows that that would mean finding a considerable sum of money to take the case to the High Court, because if the auditor chooses to make it a big enough sum the right hon. Gentleman himself does not adjudicate up it, but we are obliged to go to Court; and even if we win in Court we have to pay the auditor's costs as well as our own costs. Therefore, it is not so easy a matter for a board of guardians to deal with as the right hon. Gentleman would lead us to suppose.
I want the right hon. Gentleman to tell boards of guardians whether an auditor has the power to over-ride the statute law of the country. The Statute is clear and definite, and I am going to read it, because I want the right hon. Gentleman to give a decision about it. I will give him the case of a woman earning 32s. 6d. a week who had an invalid sister getting 7s. 6d. a week under the national health insurance scheme. The board of guardians wanted to give a little extra money in order to help the sister who was giving the invalid sister a home, and encourage her to carry on with the good work; but we were told quite definitely—I myself was told quite definitely—that this woman would not be allowed to have more than £2 a week coming in. It worked out at £1 per head per week, made up of the 32s. 6d. the woman was earning and the 7s. 6d. which her sister was receiving under the national health insurance scheme. I argued then, and I argue now, that the auditor had no right to take any account of that 7s. 6d., and I want the right hon. Gentleman to explain by what legal authority an auditor can lay down the law in that way. I also want to ask him what legal authority any auditor has to fix a scale of relief? That is what auditors are doing. In other directions they are fixing wages, but in the matter of the Poor Law they are fixing scales of relief, and laying down quite definitely that in relieving given cases the guardians shall not go beyond a certain sum, quite irrespective of the particular conditions of the case. In our district rent is a terrible problem. An applicant who gets £1 may in some cases be paying only 2s. or 3s. a week rent, and be much better off than an applicant paying 7s. or 8s. rent.
I will tell the House what the right hon. Gentleman's auditors and inspectors—I am coupling them because they are both in this business—are saying in regard to family incomes. Take an income of £3 a week in the case of a young man 30 years of age living at home with his father and mother and a couple of children. If that man earns £3 a week the auditors and inspectors are laying down that that £3 shall be taken as the income of the whole family, no matter what it might cost the man to earn that £3, and no matter what the amount of rent is which has to be paid out of that sum. This is being done under the powers taken by the Minister of Health under the provisions of the Audit Act.
The Minister of Health and his auditors may be very wonderful people, but all this investigation of individual cases is, in my judgment, an acknowledgment of their gross failure to do their duty. Guardians are not allowed under the law to give able-bodied people any relief at all outside the workhouse except under conditions of emergency, and those grants must be reported to the right hon. Gentleman. That is now being done in tens of thousands of cases which have been reported to the right hon. Gentleman time after time. The relief given in those circumstances must be relief in kind, and it must be granted only in cases of emergency. In these cases the right hon. Gentleman has sent tens of thousands of letters saying that the relief has not been disallowed. The right hon. Gentleman and his inspectors take great credit for having investigated a number of these individual cases during the last few months, but I would like to know why they have not been investigated long ago.
What has the Ministry of Health, with its highly-paid staff of inspectors, been doing in regard to this question? They did not call for sample cases. Instead of using these highly-paid officials as private detectives, the right hon. Gentleman seems to have formed a new kind of Criminal Investigation Department for the Ministry of Health. The Minister of Health and his inspectors and auditors, in laying down the scales of relief and denying to boards of guardians the right to exercise the duty imposed upon them by Statute and ignoring friendly societies payments as well as national health insurance allowances, is exceeding his right and duty as well as his legal authority over boards of guardians. He would not be able to exercise authority of that kind but for the existence of the Audit Act. The right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that under the Audit Act the conditions are as I have described them.
I would not like to conclude my remarks without calling attention to the bad condition into which that very magnificent estate at Hollesley Bay has got under the administration of the Ministry of Health. I have read the report of the inspector which was made some years ago. Hollesley Bay is an estate of 1,200 acres with magnificent college buildings admirably equipped for training men, but under the right hon. Gentleman's administration it has been turned into a noisome, foul, mixed workhouse, where all kinds of men are herded together and where there is no chance of any of them getting any decent training. The Ministry of Health has allowed this colony to become an ordinary mixed workhouse, in which feeble-minded and mentally deficient people of all kinds are herded together under the worst conditions. It is typical of the right hon. Gentleman's administration that, with a magnificent estate of this kind on their hands, they went round the country buying other land and putting up other buildings in which to train unemployed men. Long ago the Ministry of Labour should have taken over that colony and they should have organised it as a training institute.
The only thing that the Minister of Health and his advisers are doing in regard to this kind of training is to talk about corn mills and stone breaking, but they are doing nothing at all in the way of training these men. The Hollesley Bay colony, which was the first of its kind, stands as a living witness of the incompetence of the right hon. Gentleman and those who act under him in the matter of administration. The right hon. Gentleman may say that I want men to be given money for nothing, but I would like to point out to him that years ago, long before the Minister of Health came to the position he now occupies, I was advocating that the money spent by boards of guardians should be spent upon able-bodied men and women in order to equip them for carrying on some useful work. I am no advocate of emigration, but I have helped hundreds of men, after training at Hollesley Bay, to emigrate, and this has given them a chance of getting on in the world.
The right hon. Gentleman and those who act with him have poured scorn and contempt on that policy, and have charged us with only wanting to give money to able-bodied men whom, in their heart of hearts, they class as wasters. I deny that. I say that the men and women in the East End of London would much prefer to earn their own bread than get it for nothing, but the policy of the Minister of Health drives them down and down and down in the pit and vortex of destitution. The Ministry of Health are now taking up all the old worn-out ideas of dealing with men and women, and applying penal regulations to them, notwithstanding the fact that this policy has been tried in the past and has been found wanting. We thought all those old worn-out ideas had been swept out of existence, but it has been left to the Minister of Health to bring them back again. For these reasons I shall have the greatest possible pleasure in voting against the granting of this money to the right hon. Gentleman and those who act with him.
On the last occasion when this Vote was being considered I took advantage of that occasion in order to ask the Minister of Health to announce that the housing grant would be continued. On this occasion I ask the right hon. Gentleman to make a similar announcement because of the uncertainty which exists at the present moment, which is having a very unfortunate effect upon the local authorities in regard to the promotion of their housing schemes. I am aware that the number of men employed in the building trade has largely increased but I do not think any one will contend that the demand of genuine working-men for housing accommodation has been satisfied. On this question I do not believe that we have turned the corner as far as the poorer class of wage-earners is concerned. I make an earnest appeal to the Minister of Health to announce that, if he cannot give a subsidy all round he should at least continue the subsidy at the old rate for the houses being built for the poorer class of wage-earners. On a previous occasion I raised the question of the destitution which exists in several areas in our country and the consequent increase in vagrancy. On that occasion I received no reply and therefore I make no apology for again alluding to that subject. I am aware that since our late Debate there has been issued the Report of the Transference Board and the policy of the Government based on that Report has been announced to the House. The policy announced by the Government does not amount to as much as we expected, but at all events it is an honest attempt to do something, and although hon. Members may find fault with it, after all it is much more comprehensive than anything which the Labour Government proposed when they were in office.
Although I am grateful for what has been done, I am under no illusion as to its effect. I want to draw the attention of the Minister of Health to the imperative necessity of doing something at once to relieve the condition of things which I believe is absolutely deplorable. The last time I spoke upon this subject I quoted what was said by the Dean of Manchester who presided over a meeting called to consider the question of destitution and its results. He said that as a result of very careful investigations he found that there were many thousands on the verge of starvation suffering the most serious privations of many kinds.
Unfortunately there are many married men with families who are forced to drag out a miserable existence on the relief which is granted to their families. There is, for example, a case in Durham of a man with a wife and eight children. They have done no work since the year 1924, and the amount of relief which he gets from the guardians is 35s. weekly. After the rent has been paid there remains under 30s. a week to provide for a family of ten people. In Chester-le-Street, there is a household consisting of a widow and three sons aged respectively 23, 19 and 16. They have no unemployment benefit, and the total relief they get is 10s. worth of groceries for the mother and nothing for the sons. These are not isolated cases and they are typical of thousands of other cases of decent, honest, respectable households. To my mind it is a great tragedy that decent people should be brought down to conditions like those. The most satisfactory part of the Report of the Transference Board was the indignation with which they repelled the insinuation that these people were idlers and loafers. They say that these men are of the highest industrial value and that they are
They also say that the idea that these men are of indifferent employment value and unwilling to make an effort is based on ignorance if not on mere prejudice. That is where, to my mind, one of the great injustices comes in. These men are quite decent, honest, respect able men, willing to work, but we treat them as if they could find work if we deprived them of their benefit, or kept them going on miserable doles from the guardians. If a man who is unmarried falls out and exhausts his benefit, he is refused all relief from the guardians—in other words, there is nothing for him to do except to take to the roads; and, if he takes to the roads, we treat him in the casual ward worse than we treat our criminals. Whereas a criminal gets a cell all to himself, and it is a clean cell, and is provided with a bed, the man, on the other hand, who goes to the casual ward, supposing that the casual ward is crowded, has to sleep on the floor. It may be a stone or cement floor; and sometimes it is infested with rats and mice and other vermin. Notwithstanding the fact that two-thirds of these men who are on the roads at the present time are genuinely seeking work, we hustle him from casual ward to casual ward, we make him walk anything from 15 to 20 miles—which means that he has no time to look for work—and we keep him on such a starvation diet that his strength and vitality are so exhausted that, if he does get any work, he cannot do it because he is so weak.
I would ask the Minister, what is the good of all this? Does this system effect any useful purpose at all? It is not reformative, it is not deterrent; and the proof that it is not deterrent is the fact-that the number of vagrants on the roads shows a very alarming increase. I could mention places where the boards of guardians are at their wits' end to know what to do with the increased number of casuals. I will only mention one. At Cambridge there is such overcrowding in the casual ward that the Ministry of Health itself has been obliged to communicate with the board of guardians and tell them that the overcrowded state of their casual ward is a danger to the health of the neighbourhood. I want to be fair. I am one of a non-party group of Members who are interested in this question, and the other day we waited on the Minister and drew his attention to several points of minor administration. We pointed out that the practice of the guardians was falling behind the regulations of his Ministry. He received us with the very greatest courtesy, and promised—and I am sure he will redeem his promise—to lock into the matter and give instructions to his inspectors to see that these small grievances are remedied.
The point that I want to put is that this is not merely a question whether we add an onion or do not add an onion to the casual's dietary, or whether we give him a wooden pillow to sleep on or not. What I plead for is a reconsideration of the whole system. To my mind, our whole system of treatment of casuals, and of the able-bodied in particular, is perverse and foolish and mischievous to the last degree. It is, to my mind, utterly indefensible from the Christian point of view, from the social point of view, and also from the economic point of view. It degrades a man both mentaly and bodily, and is a system nicely designed to manufacture casuals and loafers and rotters more quickly than any other system could possibly do so.
If I may return to the general question for a moment, I would plead for an adequate measure of relief to respectable married men when they have exhausted their benefit. If these men are respectable and are willing to work, as the Transference Board say they are, what is the point of treating them as if they were not? What useful purpose is served by reducing the relief given to these men, so that they become so weak and miserable that they cannot carry out a job even if they are offered it? I do plead, also, for a more humane system for the unmarried man. I ask most earnestly, and at the same time most respectfully, cannot the combined wisdom of the Ministry of Health and the Ministry of Labour work out a more humane system for helping young people to get work? If they have recently moved from one district to another, why should they be forced into the degrading atmosphere of the casual ward? The Transference Board recommend that for married men there should be grants of money and advances of wages, and the Government, I understand, are going to adopt that recommendation; but nothing, as far as I can see, is going to be done for the unmarried man. Is it not possible to devise some plan whereby unmarried men, when they are forced to move from one place to another, could go to a hostel of some kind, and receive friendly assistance and be offered a friendly helping hand, instead of being forced into the degrading atmosphere of the workhouse?
There is another question. Are those men who have already taken to the roads utterly helpless? Of course, there is a hard core of helpless or hopeless people, but the point to remember is that a new phenomenon has arisen. Two-thirds of the men on the roads now are men who did originally start by genuinely seeking work, though they may have lapsed since. Is it not possible to do something for these men? They are not irreclaimable. There are several institutions at work in this country, run by devoted and public-spirited people, such as the Hostel of St. Francis in Dorset, and another in Yorkshire. They have had very remarkable success in helping these lame dogs over their stiles and putting them on the road towards self-respecting citizenship. Cannot this sort of system be extended by public grants? I earnestly plead for a recognition of the human rights of these people. In Disraeli's day there were two worlds, the world of the rich and the world of the poor, and there is an even more marked contrast at the present day. There is a world of luxury, extravagance and frivolity such as this country has never seen, and there is a world of hopeless poverty which is getting more hopeless every day. At the same time, I am thankful to say that there is a vast amount of good will in this country which wishes to apply Christian principles to our industrial and social system, and which believes that, if we do apply Christian principles to our industrial and social system, we can triumphantly solve our problems. I do ask the Government to put themselves at the head of this kind of sentiment, and to prove that if as a Government they stand by Christian principles in our social system, most, at all events, of the hardships and vices of our present system can be eliminated.
The Noble Lord the Member for South Nottingham (Lord H. Cavendish-Bentinck) has spoken with a freedom which is characteristic of him, and has rather wakened the House up by describing things as they really are in certain areas, rather than being content to depend upon the Tory propagandist leaflets which are said to describe things as they are in regard to Poor Law matters. I think the time has come for the Tory headquarters, if they are to satisfy even Tory back-bench Members, to revise their leaflets, for of late, when we have been expressing ourselves on these matters after 11 o'clock at night and telling a plain story as to what is happening even under the right hon. Gentleman's specially selected and appointed representatives in the areas from which some of us come, I have observed something like shame upon the faces of hon. Gentlemen sitting behind the Government.
The Noble Lord has spoken of the recognition of the rights of humanity. I come from an area where the right hon. Gentleman has selected three representatives to operate, and I venture to say that under their administration in that area there is neither humanity nor recognition of human rights. May I just show to the House how the policy of the Government is day by day doing what the Noble Lord has just described, namely, almost deliberately creating casuals? A gentleman came to my door—it is true that he has been refused unemployment benefit, but I know him well enough to say that he is a gentleman. It is true that he is getting relief, but I know his standard of character and intelligence and industry well enough to say that he is as good as any man sitting in this House. He has a wife and three children, and he told me that his unemployment benefit had been stopped because he did not fulfil the first statutory condition. He is not an idle man; he is not refusing to seek work; but he is refused benefit simply because he cannot fulfil the conditions of an Act deliberately passed by the Government. His wife and children have now to fall back on the guardians as the result of the Government's deliberate policy. He gets nothing. There is nothing at all for an able-bodied man under the Chester-le-Street Guardians, whether he is married or unmarried, whether he has served in the Army or not—at least they make no distinction in regard to that. The wife gets 12s., and the children 2s. each.
The Noble Lord mentioned what he thought was the shockingly small amount received by a wife and eight children, but in Chester-le-Street, in nine cases out of 10, the wife receives 12s., and 2s. for each child. I know, of course, that the Minister's representatives have said that they do not always operate the scale, but I would challenge them and would challenge the Minister to make an investigation, when I venture to say he will find that, in nine cases out of 10 of people receiving Poor Law relief in Chester-le-Street, a woman receives 12s. and children 2s. each. Here is a case of a woman and three children receiving 18s. That is the maximum, and in some cases they do not get it.
The Chester-le-Street Guardians in their last Report say, "We visit the houses regularly." They do. There is a meticulous investigation into whether the people are worthy of 12s. and 2s. for a child. That is 18s. for four—4s. 6d. each a week. The right hon. Gentleman told the House not very long ago that the cost of maintenance of an inmate of a workhouse was 24s. 2d. per week. In the Army Estimates this year it is stated that at the Aldershot Military Prison it costs 39s. per head to maintain them, and it is 4s. 6d. a week at Chester-le-Street. These people's reserves have gone. All the combinations of workmen's social organisations have spent all they have and there is nothing to fall back upon. They have to live on 4s. 6d. Does the right hon. Gentleman justify administration of that kind? He has to be responsible for it. I know the roundabout arguments used as to whether he really is responsible. There are Members of the House connected with the Army. I wonder what they would say if Army horses were kept on 4s. 6d. a week.
Hon. Members behind the Government are responsible. They are supporting that policy. It is to no purpose that the right hon. Gentleman says the old guardians did this and the old guardians did that. The old guardians were humane. Even if the worst charges brought against them were true, they still treated people as human beings. The right hon. Gentleman places three persons in charge and this is the kind of thing they do. They are remarkable economists. They have been selected by a Conservative Minister. They represent the Tory spirit. They have actually re- duced the old inmates' allowance of two ounces of tobacco a week to one. That is a sweeping reduction. At one time they got bacon for breakfast. They get none now. One could go on from point to point in respect of the guardians' administration showing the characteristic Conservative spirit in which they deal with the people.
The Noble Lord has spoken of the Christian spirit in respect of the administration of our Poor Law areas. Tory administration is not only not Christian. It is not decent. If it were possible to get a description of what is operating under the right hon. Gentleman's appointed guardians, and generally under Tory Guardians,, it would really stagger the country. The Prime Minister tells us about the wonderful characteristics of the people in areas such as ours. There is the Transference Board Report, which suggests the wonderful things they could do if men were willing to work. We met them every day—decent men, dependent upon Poor Law relief, asking for work. I do not think it is possible under this Government to get the slightest recognition of human rights. The right hon. Gentleman is a good machine worker. He is a good office administrator. Now and then his heart gets the best of that mechanical apparatus over which he presides. It did on one occasion when he talked about slum areas, and he let himself go. He criticised very strongly those areas which were not doing what they ought to do in respect of slum clearance. When it comes to Poor Law administration, which, as the Noble Lord has pointed out, does not deal with the casual, with the down and out morally and physically, but deals with the best type of our citizens, when he sees the machine grinding those men and families down stage by stage, all the right hon. Gentleman can do is to remain silent.
I do not know whether it is possible to move him to an investigation. When the Chester-le-Street Rural District Council asks that he will discuss with them the possibility of reinstating them he does not even answer. When the new appointed guardians are reappointed they do not even treat the House with the courtesy of giving them a Report. There are two of them who have not spent a single day in the public service. One of them is noted for the fact that he dug out the old Vagrancy Act of a century ago, and yet the right hon. Gentleman has nothing to say about it. They can carry on just as they wish, and Conservatives support it. I do not know whether it is possible to appeal for anything like an independent investigation of what is happening in these appointed areas where there are tens of thousands of men out of work, where poverty is operating on a scale that has never been known before and where the best type of citizen is being stage by stage demoralised as the result of the Government's policy.
I would ask the right hon. Gentleman if he will pay some attention to the administration in Chester-le-Street, and if he will attempt to justify 12s. a week for a woman and 2s. for each child? I see the bills that have been sent to the cooperative society and to the local tradesmen in expending this money. It would be pathetic if one were to recite the amounts they spend—1d. for this, 2d. for that, nothing for boots, nothing for clothes. I do not know where they come in. There is nothing for rent. There is no rent paid. Is it to be wondered at that there are thousands of children in Durham, as has been proved by an investigation, who have no boots at all Is it to be wondered at that the medical officer of health yesterday told the council there was one satisfactory thing about the children being in the smallpox hospital, and that was that they came out in better condition than they went in? It is the only place where they can get decent food. I say shame on the right hon. Gentleman and his party.
I will not follow those who have spoken in support of the basis of the Ministry of Health Estimates and their work, even if they have disguised it with an attempt to belittle it to the extent of £100, because I think one realises that on both sides there is at the bottom a general and heartfelt support of the work of the Ministry and very cordial approval of the splendid record which it evidences, although there may be points that are liable to criticism from time to time. In its general work we all agree to support it, and we wish to develop and improve it in various ways. I want to bring out one or two points which I think of special importance. One point which must obviously attract very great interest, and which it is necessary to deal with, although only in a small way, on the eve of the Recess, is the fact that we have presented to Parliament in the last two days a Report from the Departmental Committee on Vaccination. I will not weary the House with a detailed criticism of this Report, or any account of it. Really, one cannot take it into account at this late stage of the Session, but it would be quite wrong to let the Vote pass by without realising the very great importance and significance of the Report.
The House may remember the circumstances under which the Committee was originally appointed. There had been a gradual feeling that there were certain objections to the practice of vaccination and certain doubts with regard to the necessity of its continuation on the present lines, owing to the change of type of smallpox and to the fact that, although there was a very large increase in the number of cases, they were of a milder character and people were less inclined to take the necessary trouble to prevent it by vaccination. Therefore, there was coming about a condition which we in the medical profession pointed out again and again was of very great danger, although we were not in a position to estimate the extent of that danger, by the large number of unvaccinated people, which is increasing every year in proportion to the whole population. It was shown that the total number vaccinated in infancy had gradually gone down. The number among the school population who are vaccinated is now something less than one-half, and the number who seek revaccination, and are therefore protected in later years, is still smaller. This has an international aspect, because other countries have the same view as the vast majority of the people in this country have, that vaccination is a very small price to pay for protection from a very alarming disease, which might be a scourge to this country as it has been in the past. Other countries take note of it and are infinitely keener on seeing that no contamination with smallpox reaches their shores.
The fact that there is smallpox in this country is constantly a menace to our relations with other countries who unfortunately have with great reason far greater dread of this disease. Therefore, action was required to be taken, and the action taken in the first instance was to appoint a scientific committee to inquire into the nature of vaccination and into the various conditions that appertain to the operation of vaccination. This Committee have now reported. It is a very lengthy report. It is a report which, I am quite certain from a scientific point of view, does great credit to its authors, and it will be found of very great value to those who are undertaking further investigation. Of course, it leaves us very much in the same position as we were originally, from a practical point of view. It shows us that the position requires further investigation on scientific lines. All of us want to get to work on this subject, and we want to have an improvement in the prevention of smallpox in whichever way it may be possible, and, possibly, in a way which may be found to be more applicable to the people.
There is one point which it raises—it has been made a serious problem in the Press as well as in this House—and that is, the occurrence in the period after vaccination of certain unfortunate cases of nervous disorder which have been stated, by some hastily and by others anxiously, as being possibly due to the operation of vaccination. This report deals with these cases very thoroughly. We have to treat these exceptions in their proper light and in their proper proportion; and the report shows that they are a small number compared with the total number of vaccinations. The total number of cases with which the Committee dealt with was 62, of which, unfortunately, a considerable number were fatal. We must recognise the seriousness of these facts: but when you are dealing with 314,000 primary vaccinations in one year, 62 in all is a small number, and we must not exaggerate it. The total number of deaths from vaccinia over a period of 15 years has only been 001 per 100 vaccinations. Still these are facts which have to be faced, and we who are such keen supporters of vaccination as essential to the community would be misleading the House if we did not face them. The report shows, first of all, that it is a curious thing that in the year 1924 the Committee could trace no cases whatever although they searched most diligently through all the records of the results of vaccination, and those records are very complete. The Committee found some of these cases in 1922 and 1923. They found a close association between these cases and the epidemics of disease known as encephalitis lethargica, and polio-myelitis; the conclusion that the Committee came to is that just as children suffering from scarlet fever, measles and other ordinary ailments are more susceptible in a time of outbreak to polio-myelitis, so similarly those who have been vaccinated are liable to be attacked by these passing diseases in a time of epidemic.
The Committee point out exactly the limits within which further observation is required, the points to which our sense of anxiety must be directed, and the directions in which, in future, they hope we shall be able to find out exactly the nature of the trouble which has caused this symptom, which is entirely accidental both geographically—for it has occurred in Holland as well as in this country—and in years, and we may hope that we shall not see them occur again. With regard to the administration of vaccination, further points are suggested which may be useful to those who are afraid of the effects of vaccination. They suggest that it may be possible, instead of scarifying the arm, to inoculate by a puncture, and that one puncture may be sufficient for the purpose, and that a milder vaccine may be used. When we are discussing the future of vaccination we have to recognise this absolute anomaly—we have always recognised it—that this disease is considered apart from other diseases or apart from the rest of public health. The question is often asked why there should be one public health measure dealing with smallpox in the hands of the guardians while all other public health measures are in the hands of the public health authority? We medical officers of health have often suggested that the administration should be transferred to the sanitary authority or to the county councils, which are, in their way, health authorities too. Now obviously, with the big measures of this Session and of the next Session before us proposed by the Government, with the re-organisation of local government and the abolition of the guardians and the transference of their powers to the councils of county boroughs, these powers of vaccination and the responsibility for vaccination will go to the larger authority—the authority of the county or the county borough.
We may hope that when this matter is so transferred, the subject will be treated on larger and wider grounds. We hope that by that time the investigations which are suggested by this Departmental Committee's report may have gone a step further, and that we may have a very clear idea of the lines on which to proceed. Then we shall see to what extent we may be able to adapt the administration, if not, perhaps, even the legislation under which we are governed in this country, for the protection of the community from smallpox. We shall have a body of larger authority with officers of a wider field of experience to administer the law in this respect. We look forward to that day very hopefully. We hope that when that is the case we may be relieved of the absurd and monstrous pamphlets, literature and publications that are issued all round this country in defiance of the facts to terrorise people on lines that every man who is sensible believes—and the hon. Gentleman opposite who is opposed to the system of compulsory vaccination will also admit—are scandalous exaggerations and malicious inventions and not true to the facts. I hope that we may realise that it is one thing to guard against natural dangers and to suggest that you may improve your guard, but it is quite another thing to instil unnecessary fears into people who are naturally, in any case, frightened of taking any measure of precaution.
I want to devote a few minutes to looking at the total Estimates of the Ministry of Health. We have an Estimate before us for the Ministry of Health of £20,000,000 and the Estimates show an increase of nearly £1,000,000 on last year, and for excellent reasons, but still £20,000,000. Some people may say—and I am afraid many people outside recognising the financial difficulties of the times will say, too—what an absurd height to which these Estimates have swollen in this and in other Departments. They may suggest cutting them down. Let us be quite clear with regard to our sense of proportion. Of that £20,000,000, over half is due to housing, so that the public health side of it is under £10,000,000. There is less than £10,000,000 for the treatment, to a very large extent, of diseases and partly for the prevention of diseases. The prevention of disease which is preventable has resulted, and is resulting, in an enormous improvement in the health and efficiency of the people, as well as in their general habits. But Estimates for the Defence Forces amount to no less a sum than £114,000,000. We on this side do not ask for any reduction of those Estimates this year, because in a particular year we see that there are difficulties, and we know the difficulties 'in the way of cutting down these Estimates. But that is another question.
To look broadly at the general tendency of our Estimates and of our government, we spend £114,000,000 on the maintenance of armaments and we spend under £10,000,000 on the prevention and cure of diseases. The real moral of that contrast is, that when there is a clear case made out for extra expenditure for the Ministry of Health, there should be no question raised about it, and it should be granted, considering the enormous disparity between the Estimates of that Department and the Estimates for the Defence Forces. We can argue it, of course, from the human side, but we can also argue it from the business and financial side, and it is that side which we want to keep pressing home. If we could get general agreement on this on every side of the House, I would desire to suggest to those who, like myself, are so keen on the prevention of disease, and on improving the lot of suffering humanity, that they ought to be very careful what they support. They should be very careful not to have waste. There have been cases again and again where extra money has been asked really as an extra sustenance, an extra dole and not for the prevention of disease.
Do you mean vaccination?
I cannot argue this out further to-night. There is a point which was raised by the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury) with regard to the reduction of grants in respect of the supply of milk to maternity and child welfare centres. A grant for the supply of milk to maternity and child welfare centres is made because of the special purpose for which the milk is required. But milk is also a food for ordinary healthy people, when they can provide it for themselves. If there is any laxity in administration, there is a danger of this being given round simply because it is there, and because it is provided out of the public purse and because the people like to have it, as it relieves them of an item in their domestic budget. I do not want to make any general accusation, but in certain areas, in certain definite centres, that has occasionally happened. There has been extravagance; a little occasional exceptional demand from one side or another. We have to guard against that, because we wish to be quite clear that the money goes for the purposes for which it is intended.
We desire further provision made for the clearance of the slums. In husbanding our resources there is one matter which we shall, during the next two or three years, have to consider on this Vote, and that is the question" of housing. We have had demands for more money to be spent on the clearance of slum areas. No one would support that more strongly than I do. We must focus attention on the provision of housing for the very poor, and for the poorer wage earners especially, and in order to do that it will be the duty of the State, before very long, to remove the subsidy from the upper grades of houses for those people who have been very largely housed with the generous help of the State during the past 10 years, at a transcendent cost. It will be necessary to remove the subsidy from these people, because they can largely look after themselves now. The time is coming, and I am not sure that it has not already come, to remove the subsidy, not from the lower grades of houses but from the houses for the middle classes and the professional people who have family incomes of £5, £6 or £7 a week. They should no longer be assisted by the State in their housing. I think we shall find a very large source of curtailment of expenditure possible in that direction, in order that we may more and more focus attention on what is necessary for providing for those who need help in housing and other matters.
The money which has been spent on housing and health services is most important and it is the more impressive when we remember the immense improvement in public health during the last 15 or 20 years, largely due to schemes for improvement of health. The money spent on health insurance before the War was furiously attacked in certain quarters, but, as the recent Royal Commission has shown, that expenditure has resulted in wonderful improvements in the health of the country. It has placed within the reach of every citizen connected with health insurance the chance of obtaining medical advice and assistance. The various schemes which were initiated by the Government before the War have borne excellent fruit, and have justified the expenditure. In looking after the health of school children, we know that in thousands of cases the children have been enabled to grow up in physical strength to healthy manhood and become good citizens. Not less important is the money which has been spent on maternity and child welfare. That has not been a very showy or very ostentatious service, but where it has been well organised, even on comparatively small expenditure, there has been a tremendous saving in child life. Where the service has been well carried out it has been successful even in the very poorest districts.
In some boroughs, even in very crowded areas, the system of maternity and child welfare has had a remarkable effect on the death rate. For instance, in the borough of Bethnal Green, the poorest in the whole of London, and the most overcrowded—I regret to say that we are the poorest, at any rate in assessable value—we have reduced the infantile mortality to 57.7 per 1,000. In that respect we have been able to take the prize for the best result in London. That figure compares with 59 per 1,000 for London as a whole, and 69 per 1,000 for England and Wales, including the rural districts and well-to-do districts. Our infant death-rate has shown a steady decline. In 1916 it was 106 per 1,000, in 1918 129 per 1,000, and then it came down to 90 in 1922, next to 71 and this year it is 57 per 1,000. That reflects very great credit on the medical officer and the loyal servants who work with him.
It is not an unreasonable thing to say that this improvement in the infant mortality is largely due to the distribution of free milk. I remember that before the War there was considerable controversy whether milk should be delivered free. I do not believe that there has ever been a better expenditure of public money than the giving away of milk through the health departments of the local authorities. The hon. Member for St. Albans (Lieut.-Colonel Fremantle) laid emphasis, quite rightly, upon the necessity of preventing disease rather than curing disease. The medical officer of a borough in the future will not be so much a medical officer to cure disease as a preventive officer. Once a man gets sick the damage is done and doctors and medicine cannot make up entirely for the damage that has been done. The expenditure upon milk has been well justified. In Bethnal Green milk is given to expectant mothers three; months before confinement, to nursing mothers and to children up to three years. The extravagant quantity of one pint per day is given. That is not enough to demoralise any woman or any child. I am all against pauperising, but can hon. Members imagine any woman or child going down the slippery slope of pauperism because of the extravagant distribution of one pint of milk per day. Except for children between three months and 18 months, no larger quantity is given; it is then at the maximum of 1½ pints, and in that case a medical certificate is required.
I cannot understand the action which has been taken in this respect by the Minister of Health. I have a very considerable opinion of the right hon. Gentleman. He really cares for his worn and is thoroughly in earnest. We cannot overlook the fact that he deliberately chose his present office, so we are allowed to believe, and that he is desirous of making his job a great success. For that purpose he is armed with special training and enthusiasm, and I cannot make out why he has singled out this expenditure upon milk for his special veto. He has singled out this expenditure for his disapproval. He now says that milk should not be given away to mothers or their children who are in receipt of Poor Law relief, directly or indirectly. He requires a special medical certificate before even a pint of milk can be obtained. That is most unfortunate, because from inquiries which I have made the declining infantile mortality in our borough is largely due to this free distribution of milk. It may be said: "Why should not they buy the milk themselves?" Unfortunately, milk is not a popular diet. We have to do a great deal of education in this direction. The Empire Marketing Board is spending thousands of pounds in putting up posters "Drink More Milk!" Not only is the distribution of milk valuable from the educational point of view, but it is most important at this very sensitive stage of a child's life. It is money well spent. If the Minister wishes to deal with extravagance, he might have turned his attention in other directions rather than interfering with something which has done so much good. I trust that he will reconsider this question as a practical man. It may be said: "This is the high road to Socialism," and that the State ought not to make itself responsible for the distribution of free milk. If it was a case of delivering free beer, there might be something in that argument, but a little free milk is not likely to demoralise people. It does an immense amount of good, and I beg the right hon. Gentleman to reconsider his, policy.
I should like to refer to the difficult and very complex problem of tuberculosis. This problem has racked the mind of every Minister of Health and every local authority. The Medical Officer of Health in my own borough has given great attention to the subject. In connection with the death rate from tuberculosis a very serious phase has been pointed out to me. There has been a very heavy and rapid mortality amongst patients who have died within a year of notification. In 1917—these are the figures for Bethnal Green—the percentage of patients dying within a year of notification was 21.9 and in 1922 the percentage was 26.9. We have taken the trouble to follow up the cases. The reason for this alarming death rate has been given to me by our very able medical officer as the diffidence of the patients before informing the authorities that they are suffering from this dire disease.
There is great reluctance on the part of the ordinary citizen and much more so on the part of the ordinary workman to admit even to himself or to the community that he is afflicted with this disease. He is very reluctant, and he puts off notification till the very last moment. That may be due to a desire not to face the facts, but a very real reason is the fear of losing his employment. At a time when there is a great deal of unemployment, when jobs are difficult to find, a man hesitates to notify his condition and to go perhaps to a sanatorium and go through the very strict and severe treatment necessary for a cure. A conference of local authorities in London has pointed to the great success of the experiment at Papworth, where industrial training in employment is correlated with treatment. I suggest to the Minister of Health that he might well spend a little time inquiring into this matter, and take steps to encourage those suffering from the disease to notify the authorities earlier, so that if possible a cure can be effected and life saved and the home kept intact.
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If a man was sure of full and general maintenance during the time he was going through the cure, that he would not suffer economically, much encouragement would be given, and these cases would be notified at the stage when a cure is possible, instead of waiting until it is too late and death almost inevitable, as these statistics seem to show. All these health questions are, however, connected with the housing problem. One of the difficulties in dealing with tuberculosis is that when a man returns nearly cured, practically physically fit, he has to go back to a two or three-roomed tenement house, and share that house with a family of five or six children. It not only prevents him getting well himself, but there is also the dangers of contaminating his family, who naturally have an inherited tendency to contract the disease. I am not going to underrate what the Ministry of Health has done for housing or what local authorities have done. A great work has been done. The output during the last two or three years has been very large. Big organisations have been set up dealing with housing throughout the country, and you have now what is nearly a mass production of houses. There is a little danger in the optimism which says that most of the leeway has been made up.
I want to be quite frank here. Something approaching the normal has been reached in regard to houses for sale. There was a real shortage of houses for the lower middle classes, the man who is making £5 or £6 a week, and he has been able, through a building society, to buy his house. The supply in this class has nearly met the demand. In. the case of larger houses the demand is being practically met. The real difficulty is in the supply of houses for unskilled workers, the man who is earning £3 a week. There the difficulty is as great as ever. In Bethnal Green most of the families come under this category, and you still have the poorer people living in overcrowded areas. It is largely an economic question. It is not merely a question of the provision of houses, it is also a question of wages. The two things are connected, and until you get a revival of trade with better wages and a higher standard of living, this problem will still be difficult to solve. I would say this to the right hon. Gentleman, that whatever he may do in the way of reducing the subsidy on the more extensive houses he must on no account consider for the moment reducing the subsidy on houses which are wanted to meet the real and urgent need of the working classes.
The London County Council has put forward a wonderful scheme on paper for building houses in the centre of London. I am afraid that I shall get into a certain amount of trouble for being a little doubtful as to whether big results will ensue from this proposal, but the London County Council far from agreeing to a reduction of the subsidy, are coming to the Minister to ask for an increased subsidy in order to enable them to build these houses for people with low wages who must live near the centre in order to carry on their trade or employment. The London County Council are making this an excuse for slowing down the work on some of the estates on the outskirts of London. If these houses are to make their appearance, the Minister must prepare for an attack on the Chancellor of the Exchequer for more money in order to enable him to help local authorities to build houses for those whose need is greatest. Let him have the same courage and imagination and tenacity as his colleagues who represent the Navy and the Army. He will have the House behind him in his demand. I know that he cares for his job, but without the money he cannot make it a success.
It is with great pleasure that one can agree with a political opponent, and I must say that I agree with two remarks made by the hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Mr. Harris). The first was with regard to houses at low rentals, and the other his congratulation of the Minister of Health. The hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury) referred to him as a reactionary. I do not agree with the hon. Member at all. He is not only efficient, but very sympathetic. I have always found him very sympathetic to those who are in need of assistance under the Poor Law, and also to the ratepayers who themselves in many cases are poor people. Let me say a word or two on the question of slum clearance. No man who has had a long experience of public health work on a local authority can view without some degree of alarm the slow progress made in slum clearances. The problem is bound up with many other things. In the first place, there is the question of the shortage of suitable houses for the lower paid working class. That has been a great deterrent to local authorities in dealing with slum clearance schemes, because if you clear away these small types of houses and do not offer the people who are turned out other accommodation you only make the position worse than it would be if you left them to stay in the houses which it is proposed to demolish.
There is also the question of the cost of these clearance schemes, particularly since the war period, when the cost of all things in connection with building has gone up. That cost was so appalling that I know of local authorities who have withheld their hands simply because of the huge expendture involved. There is also another deterrent. In 1919 an Act of Parliament was passed, when Dr. Addison was Minister of Health, in which a Clause was inserted dealing with com- pensation to owners of property in an area which was scheduled as a slum area. Only site value was to be allowed, and there are many local authorities who have felt that this is very unjust to those owners of property who had invested their life's savings in houses which they had kept in a good state of repair, but, because others in the same district had not done so, the whole area was scheduled as a slum area. There are cases where local authorities have scheduled an area but have not gone on with the scheme, but actually drawn rents from the houses they have condemned and taken away from the owners, paying site value only for them. I hope an amending Act will be introduced dealing with this question, giving justice to these owners of property.
I do not suggest that anyone who has been profiteering should be compensated at all, but where you have people who have invested their life's savings in a small property, and it becomes a question of the area being scheduled, I think they should get the market value and not merely the site value, which in some cases only amounts to a few pounds while the real value is probably three times as much. The real problem we have to face is to find houses for the people and we can congratulate the Minister of Health on the work of his Department in this respect. Out of 1,052,619 houses built in England and Wales during the last nine years, from 1st January, 1919, to 31st December, 1927, no less than 633,442, or well over half the total, were built during the three years from 1924 to 1927, while the present Government has been in office.
That is a testimonial to the work of the present Minister of Health which cannot be decried. Credit must be given to the Minister for what he has done in pushing forward housing schemes throughout the country. Houses have also been provided by private enterprise, and the policy of the Minister in encouraging private enterprise, and also the policy of encouraging people to buy their own houses, has helped considerably in bringing about this much better state of affairs. Even as regards slum clearance schemes, although we have gone rather slowly, the Minister has done a considerable amount of work. It lies to a large extent with local authorities as to whether schemes are carried through or not. Out of 118 submitted by local authorities, dealing with about 14,000 houses, 111 schemes have been approved by the Minister of Health. Encouragement has been given to the reconditioning of houses, and 500,000 houses have been reconditioned. Perhaps a good deal more could be done towards solving the problem not only of the slums but of the provision of houses for the people at a low rental, by the reconditioning of some houses which might be described as slum houses. Many years ago I was a member of a house to house inspection committee, and it was our duty to go round and inspect certain areas which were reported by the sanitary inspector as being areas which should be either removed or improved. During that inspection we found that many of these areas, which could be described as slum areas, could be made into decent areas by the expenditure of a reasonable sum of money on the reconditioning of houses.
There are many thousands of houses in the country which might be described as slum houses, which, with the expenditure of a little money, could be brought up to date in the matter of sanitation and made fit and habitable for the working classes. I hope we shall have a much better scheme brought forward for dealing with the provision of houses for working men who really cannot afford to buy one. This is the position at the moment. Committees which are dealing with Corporation housing schemes, when they select tenants, what do they do? They first inquire as to the occupation of the applicant, and if he happens to be in regular employment he gets the preference over, possibly, the man who is not. There is a reason for that. The Corporation have to see that the rents are paid, otherwise these houses are going to be a great burden upon the ratepayers. But if it is at all possible to assist, by a special grant, houses built to be let at a rental, I consider that the experiment is well worth trying. I am sure that the Minister knows all the difficulties that are facing the country as regards housing, slum clearance and other health matters. I know that he is very keen indeed about his work, and I for one have faith in his administration for I am sure that he will do well indeed.
I am sorry that I cannot associate myself with the vote of thanks to the Minister. Needless to say, it is because of the experience we have had in West Ham. I want to elicit from the Minister a detailed defence, following his reply to a question put by me on 4th July. We had not time on the Prayer which we submitted, because the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health moved the Closure and we could not put the three points that we desired to put with regard to the administration of the appointed West Ham Guardians I shall now confine myself to one particular point, though I should have liked to have had a quarter of an hour to answer the hon. and gallant Member for St. Albans (Lieut.-Colonel Fremantle), who spoke about the efficacy of vaccination. I can assure him that I shall read in the OFFICIAL REPORT tomorrow what he said, and the volume which was issued yesterday I hope we shall take on our holidays. It will not be light literature, but it will be very good reading, and I can promise him that in the next Session there will be some good material on which medical Members of the House can explain how it is that just in proportion to the degree in which exemptions from vaccination have been granted, so smallpox has diminished.
On 4th July I put a question to the Minister as to certain work which has been instituted by the West Ham Guardians. It is referred to as test work. I asked the Minister whether he approved of this action of the guardians. The chairman of the West Ham Board states that the Minister has approved, for in an interview with a local newspaper he used these words: is one of the special qualifications for him to be put on this test work and he has to be a man on out-relief and not an in-patient—he is sent with others into what is called the Central Home, which is the old workhouse. The Labour board of guardians changed the name from the Workhouse to the Central Home. There the men are engaged on three classes of work. The first is breaking stones or concrete slabs, using a 14 lb. hammer; the second is wood chopping or cutting, or both; and the third is what I refer to as corn grinding.
These corn grinders are, so to speak, in two sections, and between the two is a partition. The man who uses the corn grinder has to turn a wheel which has a diameter of about 4 feet 9 inches. It is a hard thing to turn, as I found on trying it myself. The corn that is ground falls on the other side of the partition, and the man who turns the wheel cannot see the result of the work that he performs. That is the point to which I would draw special attention. I do not mind even the arduous toil of breaking stones or concrete with a 14 lb. hammer, because people who are doing that work can see what they are doing; but I suggest to the Minister that if he wants to live up to the feeling that Members of this House have in the past expressed towards him, he should see that the cursed spirit which imposes upon men the task of turning that grinder under circumstances that, however hard they work, they cannot see a single grain of corn, is changed. The hon. Member for South Nottingham (Lord H. CavendishBentinck) expressed the human view in favour of the casual. Here are people who are not casuals in the ordinary sense, but men many of whom fought in the Great War and have fallen upon evil days.
I ask the Minister, is it true that when he gave his sanction for this work he knew the details that I have put before him? Was he informed as to the actual construction of the machinery, and that the men engaged upon this grinding were not able to see the results of their labour? It is a very inhuman method, and I ask the right hon. Gentleman to say categorically "yes" or "no" whether he thinks that this is decent work for British citizens who are merely out of employment, or whether it is, as I assert, pun- ishment for men because they are poor and on the rocks? I ask the Minister to take note that in this Christian country in 1928, under the West Ham Guardians—the guardians of the poor—men who are breaking stones or concrete are called upon to use a 14-lb. hammer; and I ask the hon. Member for St. Albans, as a medical man, to ponder over the facts. What are these men expected to work on in the way of food? They have a midday meal. Of what does it consist? I have been round most of the prisons in this country and I have seen the prisoners' food, which is usually clean and wholesome. These men in West Ham for their midday meal were given eight Ounces of bread and three ounces of cheese. Can such a system be accepted in the spirit of Christian charity, in the spirit of an English gentleman who wants to carry out his administration with true British instincts and with regard for kindly treatment of men who are down and out?
Is that the ration for 24 hours?
That is the ration for every day.
The complete ration?
You must understand that, in addition to it, the men get outdoor relief according to the scale laid down by the present board of Guardians. For two years in this House we have protested that the scale laid down is not adequate to relieve destitution. The last report of the board submitted to the Minister stated that in their view the scale was adequate to relieve destitution. The last question I submitted on this matter was to the Minister of Pensions. I asked whether he was aware that a certain man who was a War pensioner, with 35s. a week pension, was taken to the local infirmary under these guardians, and that they did not allow his wife to contribute to his maintenance but stopped 26s. 9d. of the pension at its source, and that when the woman had paid her rent she had only 3s. 8d. a week on which to live. The Minister of Pensions stated that he would take the matter up if I would let him have particulars. But the guardians did not wait for that. The woman's name is Mrs. Jacobs, of 113, Stanley Road, Stratford. The guardians did not wait, when my question and the Minister's reply were printed in the local papers. The following week they altered the arrangement, so that the woman, instead of being left with only 8s. 9d. a week on which to live and with which to pay her rent, was left with 17s. per week.
I do not want to say anything that is spiteful, but it appears to me that unless we bring such details before the House and make some sort of a row about them, neither the Minister's Department nor the local guardians will take any notice and do justice to the people. I would like the right hon. Gentleman to understand that I am now confining my remarks entirely to this cruel, inhuman and unwarranted treatment of the men who to-day are engaged on this test work by the West Ham Guardians. Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether he personally knew the details of the work when he gave his consent to it? I have seen this task work, and it is exactly as I have described it. The Minister, I presume, gave his consent to it without seeing it, and without knowing the details or the nature of the work. But having heard from me what it is like, I hope he will give the matter his attention and withdraw his consent, and that he will tell the West Ham Guardians that while proper work will be tolerated, there must be no punishment of men who are idle only because of general industrial conditions. When men protest against this work they are put in the cells. The chairman of the guardians told the local newspaper, in reference to the case of a man who was put into a cell because he refused to do this corn-grinding: man refuses to do the work which is set him he is given into custody. May I mention that the guardians took a man to the local court and the magistrate had to convict him, because, it was said, that the Minister had given his approval to this work. I speak in no sense of unfriendliness, and with no feeling of spite, in asking the Minister to reconsider this class of work to which, apparently, he has agreed. I ask him to consider this matter in a more kindly, humane and friendly spirit towards the people who are on out-relief because of unemployment. I ask him to withdraw this order and to insist that while men may he called upon to work in a decent and proper way, there shall be no punishment of them in this brutal and callous fashion.
The Estimates of the Ministry of Health cover a very wide field and I am sure that the hon. Member for Stratford (Mr. Groves) will not think me guilty of discourtesy if I do not follow him in what he has said, because there is one matter which I wish to raise briefly. It is in connection with the question of tuberculosis. In reply to questions which I put earlier in the Session, the Minister of Health informed the House that there are on the registers of local authorities some 363,000 people suffering from this disease and of that number only some 63,000 are treated in any one year in the sanatoria of the country. The average stay of a man in a sanatorium is some 150 days and the cost per patient is 49s. 3½d. per week. If hon. Members work out the sum, they will find that the total cost of sanatorium treatment in this country is between £4,000,000 and £5,000,000 per annum. That is a very large sum. If it were certain that that sum would really effect the cure of tuberculosis, I do not think anyone would grudge the money. But when I put a further question to the Minister and ask if he had statistics to show how many of the people who passed through sanatorium treatment were, in fact, cured, he had to admit that his Department had no information on that subject, or at least no reliable information. I want to say, in the first place, that when we are spending a very large sum of money in the treatment of what we all admit to be a very serious and dangerous disease, both to those who suffer from it and to the community at large, we want to know at least what is the effect of the particular form of treatment which these people are undergoing.
My second point is this. There has been in my constituency recently an effort to deal with some of these cases by means of what is known as the tuberculin treatment. I believe this method has been reported upon unfavourably. It has, nevertheless, been tried in some localities, and in certain cases with very beneficial results. The tuberculin treatment has one advantage. It does not require isolation in a sanatorium, and a man who is undergoing it can go about his ordinary occupation. It is a very much cheaper form of treatment than sanatorium treatment and, although I speak with great diffidence on the subject, as a layman, I feel that anything which might possibly be helpful to people suffering from this disease ought to be investigated by the Ministry. We ought to see whether it is not possible to combine this and other treatments, so as to bring some help to the 300,000 people who, according to the Minister's statement, are suffering from tuberculosis and are yet unable to obtain sanatorium treatment. I admit that the question is technical. I am informed by those who know more about it than I do that what is good in one case may be baa in another. I would not for a moment, suggest to my right hon. Friend the Minister that any one form of treatment should be standardised, and should be the only one tried for this disease; but I ask the Ministry to keep an open mind and to see whether, perhaps, in certain cases, this particular treatment might not be administered with advantage to some, thereby helping them and perhaps saving the country a certain amount of the money which we are spending, by spreading it over a larger number of sufferers.
The subjects which come within the scope of the Ministry of Health are of vital and absorbing interest to us all, but I do not intend to travel again over those which have been dealt with already this afternoon. I ask the House to consider what may be regarded as a minor question but is one in which I hope Members will be interested. I think it is hardly realised that, every year, at least 60,000 or 70,000 persons, principally women and children, go from London to work in the hop districts of Kent. They are a necessity for the hop-grower because he has not enough labour on the spot to meet the exigencies of his business. If they are a necessity of his business, I claim that it is his duty to provide, at least, adequate conditions for them. I am no alarmist and I am not speaking in this matter merely from the point of view of a humanitarian. But, having seen these conditions for myself, and having studied the reports of the medical officers dealing with them, I do not hesitate to say that in a large part of these areas, the conditions are absolutely disgusting and unfit for any human being. That is no exaggeration. On the other hand I want to admit at once that many hop-growers have provided proper accommodation for these people. I cannot be accused of any undue prejudice in favour of brewers, but I say at once that where brewers are in the position of hop-growers the conditions are almost invariably very good and indeed if they were in that position all over the hopfields many of the problems which now exist there would be solved.
I went to see the conditions in many of these places myself and I found in some cases as many as seven or eight persons occupying a room ten feet by nine. They slept on straw. In one room into which I went there was a straw bed, no chair, no table and not even a box. Dirt was being brought in on boots from the wet fields and the only place on which food could be placed was on the dirty floor. Children came in with wet clothing and that tiny room was fetid with the smell of wet clothes drying. The only place provided for drying clothes was in that hut in which women and children were living. I do not want to say disagreeable or disgusting things but, after all, the House of Commons is the place where these things ought to be said. I saw a field, myself, in which the provision of latrines was so disgracefully ineffective that—I do not hesitate to say it—the field was surrounded by evidences of human excretion. The danger to health and the danger to common decency were so great that I have never seen in my life—and I have seen a great many horrible sights—a sight quite so disgusting. The water supply was some- times a long distance from the camp, and in one case which came to my notice two or three years ago, the water for drinking and washing alike was drawn from a ditch and children were actually washed in the same ditch.
I have up-to-date confirmation of what I say from the most important authority on the subject in Kent, namely the medical officer of health. Model rules were drawn up and approved by the Ministry some time ago but I am informed by the medical officer that in some cases these rules have not been adopted at all, in some cases they have been modified and in some cases they have been adopted but never put into force. Yet they are quite simple, and they do not ask for a high standard. They simply try to raise the standard to what I may call the minimum required for ordinary decency and health. To show that it is not my sentimental mind, as some people may say, which prompts me to make these remarks, I refer the House to a recent report of the medical officer in which he refers to the fact that some of these people live from four to six weeks in tents. The tents are sometimes torn, nearly always leaking, and are seldom trenched, so that the floor and the bedding in wet weather are always damp. Even in regard to the important question of the separation of the sexes he says that the regulation which is meant to enforce adequate screening is almost invariably neglected. The absence of proper latrine accommodation is also described as disgusting and discreditable. This is not from a sentimentalist but from the medical officer who is responsible for the whole of Kent and it is to the everlasting discredit of the local council that when this report was brought up, they compelled him to withdraw some portions of it, because it hurt the feelings of some of the representatives.
The fact is that as long as this matter is placed entirely within the power of the local authorities, nothing will be done. A local authority may be largely manned by people who are interested in this particular business and, however strong the medical officer may be—and I pay a tribute to the magnificent work of the medical officers—they are every now and again compelled to hold their hands in certain cases. They have even advised prosecutions and the proposal to prosecute has been turned down by a local council owing to local interests. I do not wish to dwell on these things but I think the 60,000 people who leave London annually for Kent have a right to demand such accommodation as would be given to properly looked after horses—which they are not getting except in a few cases. There is no accommodation even for drying a single garment, and there is no proper arrangement for cooking. Sometimes they are not allowed to cook in certain places, and as a consequence I have known of a case where a whole row of wooden huts has been burned down, where the people have lost every blanket and every strip of clothes they had, except what they were wearing, and the owner of the huts has disowned responsibility for the damaged goods. I have known them come home without any blankets, because they have been destroyed by fire. I do not want to ask anything unreasonable, but I do say to those in whose business these people are an element, and who cannot get their hops picked without them, that they must make the proper housing of these people a first charge upon their business.
As a result of my own inquiries, I ventured some time ago to draw up what I may call the Hoppers' Charter. The Minister of Health should be responsible for the inspection. That would prevent the intervention of the local authority influences. Every hop farm should be inspected and approved before the people are allowed to go down there, because what happens is this, that by the time the law is put into action the season is over and the whole thing starts afresh the next year. There should be at least two inspectors, preferably women, who should devote the whole of their time to supervision during the hop picking. There should be an adequate provision of latrines, estimated according to the number of pickers accommodated, and sufficient and central water supply. Then there should be conveyance to and from the railways and farms and, lastly, there should be drying houses for clothes and the provision of kitchens not exposed to weather. That is what I call the minimum demand that I venture to make on their behalf. I have asked questions on this subject for years, and I am told, even to-day, that the Ministry of Health are not going to send their inspectors this year. I hope that may not be so. It is bad enough when the inspector goes, but what it will be without an inspector I cannot conceive. It is a scandal that our London people, ordinary working people, going there for the chance of a decent holiday—and it is a sort of holiday to them if it is fine weather—should be put under conditions which are disgusting, depraving, and disgraceful to the community. So long as the hop industry depends upon these people for its success, as it does to some extent, so long is it the bounden duty of the hop merchants and hop growers to provide decent accommodation for these people.
I wish to mention a subject that has already been mentioned by various hon. Members who have spoken before me, but in doing so I do not think that any apology is needed, because I refer to a matter of some thousands of men, women and children. Their numbers are estimated officially at 12,000, but up to 50,000 unofficially, by those, however, in a good position to know. These men, women and children are upon our roads mainly through no fault of their own. Some 75 per cent. of them form a portion of the million and a quarter unemployed. They are men who have got no votes, who are nobody's children at all, and without political influence. I am certain that if we were at the moment outside any casual ward in the country and were not merely to watch these people going in, but were compelled to go in ourselves, not as visiting guardians or Members of Parliament, but as actual tramps, we should not consider that there was any excuse needed for raising this matter here. I am convinced that one of the reasons why these conditions continue is because the general public do not realise what is going on.
Can they imagine for a moment that the first thing that is done to a casual on going into a casual ward, after he has answered the usual questions, is to be told, generally in a very brusque voice, to hold his hands up while an attendant searches him? Why, I have been unable to discover. There are some people, I know, who look upon every tramp on the road as being either a vagabond or a potential vagabond, and while there may be certain men who are potential vagabonds—because the most self-respecting man going on the road, if he stays there long, is bound to deteriorate mentally, physically, and morally—the great majority are men who are as good or as bad as any hon. Member of this House or any ordinary collection of human beings. Yet he is subjected to the indignity of having to hold up his hands while some official goes over his clothing. He is then told to strip off all his clothes and to put them into a bundle, and, having done that, he receives in return a shirt and a varying number of blankets, according to the particular institution—it may be two, it may be three, or it may be four—and, as a rule, it is a travesty to call them blankets at all. I have actually read a newspaper which had been placed on the other side of a blanket which was held up and stretched out.
Then he gets his food, and I want hon. Members to try and realise that he may have walked anything up to 25 miles during the day, on a main road as a rule, dodging motor cars. An ordinary walk of 25 miles a day, when one is perfectly fit, is a fairly good test of endurance, but 25 miles in the condition to which most of these men find themselves reduced is a very long 25 miles indeed. The food given to him at the end of this long day's walk is eight ounces of bread and one ounce of margarine, accompanied by a mug of coloured liquid called tea, or it may be that he gets a mug of groats, or skilly, which in most cases is probably emptied down the nearest drain. Then, with these things in his hands, balanced very carefully—and one has to be something of an acrobat to do it—he is conducted to a cell. An hon. Member who was speaking a few minutes ago rather drew surprise from other hon. Members that these men were locked in cells, but it is so, up and down the country, in the majority of the casual wards. Why they are locked in cells, heaven only knows. They are not criminals, they have not sinned, but they are sinned against by being compelled to be among the unemployed, and they are locked in cells, with the jangle of keys, just as if they were in an ordinary prison. In the morning, if you have had any sleep at all, you are awakened with another eight ounces of bread and one ounce of margarine, and another drink of coloured liquid called tea or shell cocoa of the worst possible sort.
I know quite well that I have not time adequately to deal with this question, and my object in rising is not to weary the House with these facts. My sole purpose is to make some propositions to the Minister of Health in the hope that we can get something further from him than we obtained at the deputation last week. I recognise the Minister's great difficulties in the matter. After all, these conditions existed before he came into office, but I plead with him that something could be done immediately if only the Government had the will to do it. Therefore, because of the shortness of time, I am going over some of the suggestions that I have to make more in the form of a catalogue than anything else.
First of all, with regard to food, I am going to plead again to the Minister that, in order that these men may be helped, in order that the disease of under-nourishment from which they suffer—for that is what it was called by the last master of a workhouse with whom I discussed this matter, whose calculation was that 50 per cent. of the men on the road are suffering from disease caused by under-nourishment—may be alleviated, first of all, where a man is detained in a casual ward, he should be given not the 8 ounces of bread and 2 ounces of cheese which he gets when he goes out on the road, but the same mid-day meal as the ordinary inmates of the workhouse get. In that way he would be getting some variety, because every day on an average in a well-conducted workhouse the meals vary. One day he may even get a bit of meat, a thing that a casual on the road never gets. If you will give him the same mid-day meal as is given to the ordinary workhouse inmate, he will get some slight variety.
Secondly, although I know quite well that this has aroused a good deal of humour among those who do not know what hunger is, I am again going to ask that there may be added to the diet of the casual a raw onion, first, because it would give some stimulation to the man's appetite, and secondly because it would help him medicinally. I will not go into the medicinal theory of the raw onion, but I know perfectly well that on several occasions when I have been utterly hungry and utterly tired—one might say ravenous—yet when I have had handed to me the 8 ounces of bread and 1 ounce of margarine, I have been quite unable to eat it. I would like to thank the man who gave me the idea. He was quite an oldish man; he saw me trying to eat this bread and margarine, and he took, not out of his pocket, but out of the place where he had concealed it, a small onion and cut it into three parts. One he kept for himself, one he gave to me, and the other he gave to his next-door neighbour—one of the finest pieces of Christianity that I have seen practised. I know that even the addition of that small onion to the meal would make all the difference between heaven and hell to some of these men on the roads. Is it too much to ask from the resources of the British Empire, that the casual should be given the midday meal of an ordinary workhouse inmate and the addition of one raw onion per day? It would be quite easy to organise. Masters of workhouses have assured me that they could do both these things without adding either to the cost or to the difficulty of organisation.
In regard to sleeping accommodation, I wonder whether hon. Members realise that every wet and cold night the population of our casual wards is two, three, or four times greater than on a warm night, because no man who knows the casual wards will ever go in unless he is forced to do so, much preferring to sleep under the hedge or on a hayfield, but on any cold or wet night there will be many times more men and women in the casual wards than on a fine night, and every wet night there are thousands of men—I say it deliberately—who are sleeping on stone or concrete floors, with nothing but a night shirt and two or three blankets. There is nothing that I enjoy more than sleeping on mother earth, but it is altogether different to sleep on a stone or concrete floor, and what I am asking again is this, that where the accommodation is insufficient to provide these men with a bed, they should be given at least a board to separate them from the cold floor. A simple board is all that I am asking for, and I am asking for things which may be done here and now, next week, if we only have the will to do them.
7.0 p.m.
Secondly, dealing with the sleeping accommodation, I know it has been put against me many times that, where men are provided with hammocks, they put the hammock on the floor instead of hanging it up. That is chiefly because the hammocks are very often impossible to use. Either the rings fitted to the hooks are broken or the canvas is torn. Besides, I have found that you cannot possibly sleep in these hammocks unless you are dead tired. I enjoy sleeping in a hammock on board ship, but the hammock in a casual ward is a different thing. They curve, and you spend the night with the blankets in the middle of your back. I do not wonder that the men put them on the floor. Thirdly, I ask that, where beds are provided with a wire mattress, there should be at least something put between the wire mattress and the human being. I have seen men get up from these beds with the pattern of the wire mattress on their backs, and I say that something should be provided to protect them from the wire. Next, I ask that wooden pillows should be abolished. It is difficult for me not to give the impression that all casual wards are like those I am describing. Some are very good and some are very bad and in many of the latter the casuals have a wooden pillow, a rectangular block of wood. Some will say to me, "Why not use your boots?" That occurred to me, but your boots are taken away from you. You want something to raise your head above the ordinary level.
Next, I ask the Minister to see to it that the cells or rooms, in which the casuals sleep, are made decently clean, clean of rats, clean of mice, clean of vermin, clean of old filthy bandages such as can often be found there. I do not know if it is possible to make Members realise that in many wards the possibility of keeping clean does not exist. There are many places where as many as 13 or 14 men are expected to wash in the same water and a dozen or more are expected to use the same towel. My luck has always been in. Last time that there were 11 sharing the same towel, I was fortunately the first to use it. When you realise that these men come in off the roads with bleeding feet and running sores and that in some wards, though not in all, they are all expected to use the same towel, you can see how modest I am in asking that each casual should be provided with one towel. It is done in some wards; why should it not be done in all? Water, too, should be provided for washing purposes. The casual is often blamed for being verminous. He is not verminous because he likes it, but because he cannot help it. In many cases your clothes are taken from you and thrown on all the other clothes. I know that, when Members of the House, who are also members of a board of guardians, are taken round, led by the nose, they will see nice partitions with numbers on them and will be told that every man is given a certain number and his clothes put into the right compartment. It does not work out that way, and I ask all Members who are guardians to visit their casual wards not only on visiting days but when the men are in them and see what is done then. The men's clothes are thrown on to all the other clothes and, if there is one verminous, then all the others will be verminous in the morning.
Another point I would make—and I am still keeping to those things which can be done at once—is about Sunday detention. At Tiverton recently, a census was taken of the men passing through the casual ward, and 60 per cent. of them were men under the age of 40 and there were very many boys of 16, 17 or 18. What will be the effect on them of the Sunday detention practised in the majority of casual wards, where the men are shut up by themselves in their cells or in a small room from six, seven or eight o'clock on Saturday night to six, seven or eight o'clock on Monday morning? They are simply locked in all day Sunday; old and young locked in together. The decent, self-respecting casuals are locked in with the old stagers, who number about 5 per cent. I want to emphasise that the presence of one of those old men, who has become absolutely hopeless, is enough to demoralise any young boy in a single Sunday. Some attempt should be made to separate the young from the old, and the policy of locking them in together all day Sunday without any occupation should be abolished. I do not know why it is necessary to lock them up at all, but I do ask that, where men are detained on Sunday and where it is considered necessary to lock them up, some occupation should be found for them. Nothing is more demoralising than to keep any human being absolutely unoccupied. I am sure, if boards of guardians were to make an appeal in their own districts, they would get old magazines and other reading material and something for the men to mend their clothes, and so make Sunday a real day of rest for them, which is what the men want.
As regards tasks, as long as it is considered necessary that, in return for those eight ounces of bread and two of margarine, eigth ounces of bread and two of cheese, eight ounces of bread and two of margarine, the nation should get some return for this hospitality, then let the work be worth while. As it is now, the average tramp does as little as the average Tommy did in the War. They pretend to do something. They are only given piffling jobs which give them a contempt for honest work. If you have no decent work to give a man, let him out the next morning. Then, again, as to release. It is a fact that in the average casual ward the men are not allowed out on the road until between 10 and 11 o'clock in the morning. When the men are released they should be released at an hour early enough to enable them to do the two things they have got to do in the day before them. First of all, they have got to get to the next casual ward, 10, 15 or 25 miles away. The second thing they have to do is to look for a job. How can a man get to the next casual ward and look for a job if he is only put on the road at 10 or 11? The reason, they say, is that the medical inspector does not come until 10 or 11. Why not have a medical inspection in the evening? I do not want to thrash this question out now, but I do insist that a man should not be released later than 8 o'clock in the morning if he is to reach the next casual ward the same night.
At the same time you get a cry that casual wards everywhere are overcrowded. When you put to the Minister that men are sleeping on stone floors, the reply is that casual wards are overcrowded. If the Minister persists in his policy of closing casual wards, there will be still more men sleeping on stone floors. I cannot understand why he goes on with this policy of closing casual wards when those that are open are overtaxed in their accommodation. Next, I would ask why it is considered necessary in some districts that a tramp should have to go to the police to get a ticket of admission. Has he done anything wrong? Is it a crime to be unemployed? If it is necessary in some districts, why not in all? I have no complaint where men are admitted on a simple application at the casual ward, but in the North East and in my own district they have to apply to the police, and in most districts the police station is a long way from the casual ward. In addition to the added labour, there is the despondency put on a man when on arriving at a casual ward he is told he must go to the police station. Imagine, after having already done a long walk, being told that you have to walk one mile to the police station and another mile back. The Minister should insist that guardians admit casuals on application, and so remove this association with crime. Finally, I ask that the Minister shall arrange that members of boards of guardians shall visit the casual wards at night after the men have been admitted. It is not because I altogether mistrust the officials. I know in most cases the officials have got a hopeless job. There is hardly a master who would not hand over his casual ward immediately to anyone who would take it on. They hate the regulations they have got to work. They are harried and harassed and they have got an impossible job. But I do ask that boards of guardians should visit casual wards not merely on visiting days but after the men have been admitted at night.
I want to raise a question of a very different nature from that which we have just heard from the hon. Member for Darlington (Mr. Shepherd) in a speech to which we have all listened with the deepest interest. I want to raise the vital question of maternal mortality. I know the Minister has that question very much at heart, and that he has appointed a Committee to inquire into it. Has that Committee reported yet and, if so, what is the nature of the report? We have not only to consider the question of the great mortality, especially among the extremely poor, but we have to consider the further question of the health of the coming generation born from those mothers who, possibly, survive by reason of the medical attention which they have received. Are we going on in the same old way? Are we going on allowing mothers to die when their lives might be saved? Are we going to allow those people to be in utter ignorance of the means of preserving their own life when the doctor comes to them and says, "You ought not to have another child, my good woman; you ought not to do so, because it may cost you your life?" When she asks him how she can avoid this, he shrugs his shoulders and says, "That I cannot tell you." When this Committee has reported, will he consider giving the same information to these women in the same way as that which is given to those who are better off? If you have your own private doctor and your health is unfit for childbirth, he will tell you what to do to prevent it. But the poor, who cannot pay a private doctor, cannot get the information. As long as this is so, we shall have this great mortality among mothers, and go on rearing a generation of young people unfit to come into the world by reason of their mothers being unfit to rear them.
I wish to raise the question of the action of the Minister in respect of the Welsh Board of Health, and to call the attention of the House to the fact that the Minister's action in reorganising the Welsh Board of Health has led to a great deal of discussion in Wales and has given the impression that he has deprived the Board of its former status. Under the scheme of reorganisation which the Minister has introduced, there is no Board of Health in Wales. but, instead, we have three officers in Cardiff who are carrying out the work of civil servants under the direct instructions of Whitehall, with no provision whatever for joint action under a duly appointed chairman. Such administration and economy as Wales was once definitely promised, and which it has in part enjoyed, is now, we contend, being done away with. Not merely is there disappointment, but keen resentment in Wales regarding the action of the Minister in doing away with this Board of Health, action which we contend, is hostile and destructive. The feeling of indignation prevailing in Wales is a clear indication that this question has a national aspect, and the people of Wales regard the action of the Minister as an insult to the Welsh nation. The Assistant - Postmaster General may laugh, but we have been too tolerant with regard to the insults that the present Government have heaped upon the Welsh nation.
The step that the Minister has taken is a retrograde step, and was taken at the time when Wales was demanding, not a curtailment of the powers of the Welsh Board of Health, but expansive and increased powers. In fact, Wales is demanding that she should get local autonomy with regard to the administration of all matters appertaing to national health in Wales. The Minister and his Parliamentary Secretary have suggested that the indignation that prevails in Wales is the result of misunderstandings and misstatements. If there were any misstatements, they are to be attributed to the Minister and his Parliamentary Secretary. If there are any misunderstandings in Wales upon this question, it is the direct result of the mixed replies and shifting expedients of the Minister of Health and his Parliamentary Secretary. We have had many replies to a large number of questions from the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary with regard to the Welsh Board of Health. In April, 1927, a question was asked by the hon. Member for North West Camberwell (Mr. Campbell) whether the Minister intended to remove the Welsh Board of Health, and the reply of the Parliamentary Secretary was: given is that the number of higher officials of the Board are no longer justified, and that domestic internal difficulties exist.
Whenever a question has been put down, the replies of the Minister in justification for reducing the status of the Board of Health have not been consistent His bewildering statements justify Wales in misunderstanding the situation, but I can assure the Minister of Health that there is no misunderstanding in Wales. Wales clearly understands the position, and she clearly understands that the action of the Minister means taking away a statutory right to an adequately equipped method of administration of health and insurance in Wales. She clearly understands also that it is another step to deprive Wales of one of her national institutions which was established by Act of Parliament. It is wrong for the Minister to argue that he has not taken anything away from Wales, and that it is not necessary to maintain the Welsh Board of Health because it has not enjoyed that status. It is necessary in this respect to remind him of the undertakings that have been given by his predecessor in office. He gave Wales a status as far as health was concerned. Let me remind the House of the status that was given in 1910, when the National Health Insurance Act was being framed. Insurance Commissioners were set up for England, Scotland, Ireland, and Wales, and Clause 82 of the Act provided for the establishment of Welsh Insurance Commissioners, to whom were given full powers of authority to administer the Act in Wales. By the passing of the Ministry of Health Act, 1919, the Insurance Commissioners for England and Wales were done away with, and the provisions of the National Health Insurance Act were to be administered in England by the Ministry of Health and in Wales by the Welsh Board of Health. Clause 5 of the Ministry of Health Act says that the Minister should appoint such officers as he may think fit to constitute the Board of Health in Wales—
Is it not possible to have the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health present if the Minister himself is unable to be here? He may have retired to have some refreshment, but the injury and damage done to our little nation by being thoroughly despised in this country by our not having the Ministry represented at all, is a thing that we should not be asked or expected to abide, and I want to enter my protest. The Noble Lord the Assistant Postmaster-General may reply, but notice has been given that we were going to raise this matter on this Vote, and we ought not to allow the Debate to go on without anybody representing the Ministry being present.
The Parliamentary Secretary is unfortunately indisposed and unable to be here, and the Minister of Health has to be away for a short time, but he understood that this particular question was to be raised at 8 o'clock.
It was arranged last night to be raised at 7 o'clock.
I am sorry if the Parliamentary Secretary is ill, but some indication ought to have been given to us. I do not know what has detained the Minister, whether there has been some disruption in the Cabinet or not.
As far as we on this side of the House are concerned, up till yesterday we understood that the matter was to be raised at 8 o'clock, and discussed until 10 o'clock.
It was arranged through the usual channels last evening, before the Division at 10 o'clock, that the discussion was to start at 7, and be brought to a close at 9.15.
I am sorry if there has been a misunderstanding, but the Minister will be here as soon as possible, and, in the meantime, he has asked me to take notes for him.
It is characteristic of the attitude of this reactionary Government towards Wales. I was referring to Clause 5 of the Ministry of Health Act, which reads: Health of 1919 and the Welsh Members of Parliament. I will read the statement that was made by Dr. Addison, who was Minister of Health, explaining what was the real objective of Clause 5. There was discussion in the House of Commons as to whether Wales was going to lose anything of its former powers or any of its status, and whether this status was going to be reduced as a result of the change in that Act. He said: Chairman? By the action of the Minister himself immediately after the passing of the Act. Dr. Addison appointed a Chairman for the Welsh Board of Health, and constituted the Board practically upon the same lines as the Insurance Commissioners. The procedure laid down by Dr. Addison nine years ago has been carried on—until the present Minister suddenly found that there was no need for a chairman. The Government's promise to the Welsh Parliamentary Party in 1919 should be honoured by the restitution to the Board of its chairman and of its status, in order that it may discharge its full responsibilities.
Then the Minister has contended that there is no work for this Board, and that the Board have met only a certain number of times in so many years. Why? The responsibility for putting into operation the Ministry of Health Act rests upon the Minister. Section 5 transfers powers and duties to the Welsh Board of Health. Why has not the Minister given some work to the Board? Why has he not consulted the Board on matters appertaining to the health of Wales? Has he taken into consideration the relationship of the Welsh Board of Health to the Welsh nation in respect of the organisation of health services in Wales? Has he consulted them at all? If he has not deemed it necessary to provide work for the Board in the last four or five years, what justification has he for complaining that the Board have not met. I understand the reason the Board have not met is because the Minister has ignored them, and in ignoring them he has also ignored the Welsh nation.
We claim that Wales is a separate nation, and therefore a national unit for the purposes of administration. Unfortunately, this Government do not think so. Welsh Departments, whether in matters of education, agriculture or health, are nothing but branches of the corresponding Departments in Whitehall. Welsh officials have no direct access to the Minister. They act through and under the subjection of the bureaucracy of Whitehall. Such arrangements obviously make not for the development but for the crippling of Welsh national institutions, and confine Welsh Departments to the narrow groove of clerical routine. We ask the Minister to restore the Board to its former status and to give it the powers which were promised by his predecessor, and which in the past have been partly enjoyed, and thus remove the slur which has been cast upon the Welsh nation, because we claim that the Welsh nation is entitled to equal treatment with the other nations that comprise Great Britain.
I regret that it should be necessary to drag the Minister of Health back to the House when he was taking the opportunity to secure a little refreshment, and I fully sympathise with him in his difficulties caused by the absence of his Parliamentary Secretary. I very much regret that it should have been necessary to raise this question at all in the House. I had hoped, after the representations made to the Minister not merely by his political opponents but by the whole of his political friends in Wales, that he would have made this concession to the unanimous wish of the whole of the people in Wales without distinction of party or creed. His stubbornness is quite incomprehensible to me, because what he hopes to achieve by the policy he is adopting is so trivial that I should not have thought it was worth his while to make the change without having the unanimous opinion of the whole of this small but loyal and patriotic people in support of it. The noble Lord may smile.
I was not smiling at that.
The Noble Lord is not the only Noble Lord on the Treasury Bench, and not the only simpering Noble Lord on that Bench. As the Minister was not present when the case was opened, I will, with permission, repeat one or two points which have been made which it is important that we should have in mind. The Minister of Health claims that he has introduced no change by the action he has taken. I cannot understand how he can possibly put forward such a claim. I had some personal responsibility for the setting up of the Commissioners, and as Prime Minister in 1919 I was responsible for the substitution of the Board of Health in Wales. It is quite true that I was in Paris at the time, but Dr. Addison, who was then the President of the Local Government Board, acted on behalf of the whole of the Government in the step which he took.
What happened in 1911? In 1911 we had separate Commissions set up to administer the Insurance Act, with a joint committee to co-ordinate the powers of the whole. There was a separate body of Commissioners for Ireland, with a chairman and secretary. There was a separate body for Scotland, and a separate body for Wales. The body which administered the Act in England was a completely separate body. The English body had no functions in Wales, had no authority in Wales. It had only exactly the same functions and powers and duties as the Welsh Commissioners had in respect of the area within their jurisdiction. There were four co-ordinated bodies, each with equal powers within their respective areas. The only distinction was that the Commissioners for Scotland—I think I am right in my recollection—were responsible to the Treasury. Since then they have been made responsible to the Minister of Health for Scotland, which means the Secretary of State for Scotland. With regard to England and Wales, the Minister of Health is Parliamentary spokesman of both those Boards, but he is not only the English Minister, he is Minister for England and Wales, and he represents the Welsh Board of Health exactly as he represents the English body in respect of the Insurance Scheme.
In 1919, a body was set up, a separate body, constituted as a Board of Health in Wales. It was decided that the whole of the powers of the Insurance Commissioners should be transferred to that body. Dr. Addison, on behalf of the Government of the day, said there had been no diminution of the powers of the Insurance Commissioners but that, on the contrary, there would be an extension of their powers for Wales. That is a definite pledge, and it has never been repudiated. I do not believe it has been repudiated by the present Minister of Health. On the contrary, I think his claim is that there is no departure at all from the pledge given on that occasion. I say there has been a complete departure, and that in essence and in substance there is now a complete breach of faith with Wales. The Minister said in answer to a question that this is not a Board in the ordinary sense of the word. What did he mean? The Act which he has to administer calls it a Board. What right has he to alter that Act of Parliament? It was declared by Act of Parliament that a Board should be set up in Wales. The right hon. Gentleman says it is not a Board. He has no right to take away its title by his ipse dixit in an answer to a question in the House of Commons. The Statutes of the Realm say it is a Board, and he has no right to say that it is not a Board.
The right hon. Gentleman says that he has made no change at all, but how can he say that? There are four sets of Commissioners with their chairmen and secretaries, and the right hon. Gentleman says: "Not merely will I not appoint a chairman, but I will not appoint a secretary in this case, and in future there will be neither a chairman nor a secretary." Is that the case in Scotland? I do not know what has happened with regard to England, but I know there is a chairman of the Board in Scotland as well as a secretary. The same applies to Ireland, and to say that you are making no change in the constitution of a body when you say that you will have neither a chairman nor a secretary in the case of the Welsh Board is really trifling with the House of Commons.
The right hon. Gentleman says that each of these boards discharges its functions. He says there are three of them now and each will run its own show, but he must know that that is nonsense. Can the right hon. Gentleman mention any body, whether it is a business board or a council, that can run its business without having one man to co-ordinate its business. There must be one man who can be consulted, who focusses the whole thing, and with whom the Minister in Whitehall can communicate on important matters. Whether you take a business body, a municipal body, or a board of this kind, it is always recognised that the chairman is the one person who guides and inspires the whole body if he really acts as the chairman. That is what he is there for, and that was the case when I had the administration of the Act. At that time, I had to look to the chairman. Whenever there was a question of policy involved, on such occasions the chairman was sent for to discuss matters. When we were administering the Act at the beginning, we had great difficulties to face as was inevitable in a great experiment of this kind, and we always sent for the chairman and the secretary to discuss these matters. The chairman is the first man whom you would naturally consult on such matters, and I constantly consulted Mr. Gwynne in Ireland and Sir Thomas Hughes in Wales. Sometimes they brought their secretaries, and sometimes they did not bring them, but whenever there was a difference on questions of policy those were the men with whom we discussed these subjects. That is obvious. If the right hon. Gentleman attempted to abolish the chairman of the Board of Health in Scotland as well as the secretaries, does he imagine that Scottish Members would stand it for one moment? The right hon. Gentleman dare not do that in Scotland, and I venture to say that this experiment will never be repeated as far as Wales is concerned. By carrying out this policy, the right hon. Gentleman has rendered no service to the Government or to his party; in fact, he has done both of them a great disservice by his action.
The right hon. Gentleman says that there has been no change at all, but it is only necessary to repeat the facts in order to see that there has been a complete change. The report which appeared in the papers of what transpired between the Welsh Members and the Minister of Health in the interview which took place was not a complete one, but that report stated that the right hon. Gentleman said that when you come to promotions they would not be permitted without the presence of some official sent from Whitehall. Can hon. Members imagine for a moment that being tolerated in Scotland? Can hon. Members imagine an official from Whitehall being sent to a board meeting to decide who should be appointed or who should be promoted? The right hon. Gentleman describes that as a trivial change, but hon. Members know quite well that the appointment of officers and the promotion of officers are about the most vital things in the administration of any business or any municipality. What would happen if the right hon. Gentleman were to say to the Birmingham Town Council: "I am not going to allow you to appoint your town clerk or your medical officer of health or your Mayor"? In that case, you would have a lot of councillors with no co-ordinating authority around them. Supposing the right hon. Gentleman said to the Birmingham Council: "I cannot trust you to appoint your officers or to promote them, and I am going to send an officer from my Department in Whitehall to preside over the committee that promotes your officers." What would Birmingham say to that? Birmingham has its pride and its legitimate pride, and I am sure the right hon. Gentleman would not offend it. Does the right hon. Gentleman not think that Wales has its pride and its legitimate pride? It has very good reason for its pride, because Wales is older than Birmingham, and Wales was a nation when Birmingham was a swamp. Under these circumstances, what right has the Minister of Health to pass an insult which he would not dare to apply to his own city on to the country to which we belong? One of the reasons given for the action which the right hon. Gentleman has taken was that these men have been quarrelling. I think the right hon. Gentleman is the last person who ought to talk about Commissioners or men sitting around in the same council chamber quarrelling with each other, because the Government are at it this very moment. The only difference is that the men complained of never quarrelled in public, which is more than I can say for the right hon. Gentleman and his party. The right hon. Gentleman holds the King's Commission and represents the Sovereign, and, therefore, he is one of the last people in the world who ought to say that because people disagree among themselves they should be deprived of their functions. There are often disagreements among people who have to work together closely—this happens even in regard to the Church, as the Solicitor-General, the Attorney-General and the Bishops well know—but I have it on the best authority that whatever disagreements have occurred have passed, and no disagreements have occurred recently. I make that statement on the authority of people who are supposed to be engaged in these disputes.
Sometimes there are disagreements even in the Civil Service, but it would be a sad day if you were to deprive the Civil Service of the whole of its powers, because two or three men happened to have disputes among themselves. It is the business of the Minister to settle these things. The Minister has full authority, it is his business to maintain discipline, and if any man is to blame that man ought to be dealt with. At any rate, you ought to find out on which side the mistake was made before you punish any man. I think there is only one of the men there now who was appointed in 1911, and he is a very able and competent administrator. I know that all those who come in contact with him in the insurance world in Wales speak very highly of the trouble he has taken to examine all their propositions. More than that, this man was appointed by the Minister of Health himself as Commissioner for National Service.
At your request.
That is so, and that shows that we had confidence in him. I think the right hon. Gentleman will find that his interruption was a little premature, because he wrote a letter to that gentleman thanking him for the efficient way in which he discharged his duties. What is more the right hon. Gentleman wrote that letter after he had himself ceased to be a Minister, and he wrote to congratulate him because of the honour which had been conferred upon him in respect of his service. The right hon. Gentleman was then a private Member, and he went out of his way to thank this gentleman for the efficient way in which he had discharged the services he had entrusted to him. It seems to me that if I suggested this gentleman to him the right hon. Gentleman must have felt that my suggestion was perfectly justified, because he afterwards congratulated him upon the work which he had done. I could quote other letters from the right hon. Gentleman's Department which are full of laudatory references in regard to this gentleman.
The right hon. Gentleman has not given any sufficient reason for depriving Wales of the same status and the same position as that which has been conferred upon Scotland and England, and which, up to the present time, is the position which has been maintained by every Administration, including that established by the right hon. Gentleman himself. For these reasons, I ask the Minister of Health to reconsider this matter. The reasons which the right hon. Gentleman has given for his actions are much too trivial. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health said that his action was taken in order to save £1,600 a year, and he said, "This was necessary in order to effect a considerable saving." Although there has been a protest against the action taken by the right hon. Gentleman, which was backed up by every section and party in Wales, the Minister of Health refuses to pay any attention to that protest, because he says that he wants to save a considerable sum of money. I think that is a mean breach of faith appropriately supported by very mean arguments. It is a mean and paltry argument. When you have a request made like the one to which I have alluded, which is perfectly unanimous from a little country that has been singularly loyal and patriotic, for the right hon. Gentleman to say that he is going to refuse it because of a question of £1,500 is something which is unworthy even of this Government.
8.0 p.m.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) has covered a very great deal of ground, and I do not think that any Member of this House has more authority than he to speak on Welsh matters. In fact, it was the right hon. Gentleman himself, when he was Prime Minister in 1919, who turned down a very definite demand in this House that a Secretary for Wales should be appointed, or, at least, it was the Minister of Health at that time, under the right hon. Gentleman, who in this House turned down that proposal. I should like to take the Committee back to the stage of these discussions when my right hon. Friend received a deputation from the Welsh National party. In the published report of that deputation which appeared in the "Western Mail" of the following day, there appeared this paragraph, to which I think the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs has already referred. The Minister of Health said:
My right hon. Friend justified his action on two grounds. In the first place, he said that the Board as such had only met 29 times in nine years, and that, therefore, the Board, as a Board, had proved conclusively that it was not necessary that it should function in that capacity. The second point that he placed before the deputation was that, owing to personal differences which apparently do exist within the Board, and to personal antagonism, of which he was conscious immediately he took office in 1923, he could not see his way to appoint one of the existing members as Chairman. Surely, however, my right hon. Friend must recognise that the second point destroys the first, because if, in a Board of this importance, there is keen personal feeling and personal antagonism, it is obvious that that Board will not be called together either by the Chairman or by the Secretary if it can possibly be avoided. Therefore, I submit to my right hon. Friend with all respect that that is not a reason which he is justified in placing before the House of Commons for this change in policy.
For my part—and I am speaking purely as a private Member, and not on behalf of the Welsh Conservative party—I do not think that this House is at all interested in personalities, whether within the Welsh Board of Health or any other Government Department. What we are considering, and what, surely, we should be interested in, is not whether personal antagonisms or personal differences exist within an administrative Department of the Government, but whether that Department is able to work effectively and efficiently while labouring under such difficulties. I do think that, if my right hon. Friend was aware in 1923 that it was impossible for this Board to function as it should function, owing to personalities and personal feelings within it, it was his duty, not only to look into the matter, which I think he did on that occasion, but to go further, and say to these civil servants that, if they could not overcome their personal difficulties within a certain period, it would be his duty, in the interests of efficiency, to dispense with the Board altogether and bring in a new set of officials. I do not think that in placing that argument before the House I am disclosing any confidence, because I think my right hon. Friend led us to believe that it was common knowledge that one of the reasons why he was unable to appoint one of the existing members as Chairman was that fact—
I never said that it was common knowledge.
I beg my right hon. Friend's pardon, but, as a matter of fact, it was common knowledge, not only within the precincts of this House, but in Wales itself. The appeal that I wish to make to my right hon. Friend to-night is that he should not allow such personal differences as have existed in the past to weigh with him in the future. If it is not possible to bring in an outside Chairman at this stage, I would ask him most seriously to consider whether it is not possible, even at this late stage, to appoint one of the remaining members of the Welsh Board of Health as Chairman. If it be a fact, as he has stated, that one of the chief reasons which have weighed with him in this matter is the question of saving £1,600 a year, I think he should take into consideration the fact that, by the appointment of one of the present Board as Chairman, the cost to the Treasury would only be increased by £400 a year.
After all, I think that those of us who represent Welsh constituencies in the Conservative interest are justified in saying that we think that the whole way in which this matter has been approached has been singularly tactless, though I do not think for a moment that it was the fault of my right hon. Friend himself. In the first place, the decision to make this change of policy in regard to the Welsh Board of Health was announced in the middle of a by-election in a constituency which, perhaps, is more sensitive to national feeling in Wales than any other constituency that could be named, and I honestly think that my right hon. Friend, when he was contemplating a change of this nature, should have copied the example of another Cabinet Minister, the President of the Board of Education, and consulted representative Welsh opinion before making a fundamental change of this kind. I do feel that, if he had consulted, not only the Welsh Conservative party, but the Welsh National party, as has been done in the past, we should not have landed ourselves in these difficulties, and those of us who day by day are doing our best in the constituencies to represent the policy of our party are entitled to say in this House that we deserve better treatment and better sympathy from the Ministers of the Crown.
I think it is generally agreed, or, at least, has been agreed in the past, that this question should be approached from a non-partisan standpoint, and, if I may, I want to make this final plea to my right hon. Friend, that he should, as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs has said, recognise national sentiment in this matter, and see if it is not possible in some way or other to restore to the Welsh nation the dignity and authority which a Government Department responsible for administration in the Principality deserves. I am confident that, if my right hon. Friend acknowledges, as I am sure he will, the great feeling which exists on this question up and down the Principality, he will take a definite step to-night to assure the House that he will find some way or other of overcoming these personal difficulties and appointing a Chairman and Secretary, in order that, as the Minister of Health said when he introduced his Bill in this House in 1919, the full functions of this Ministry may be carried on in Wales by a Welsh Board of Health.
I rise to associate myself fully with the submission which has been made on this matter by representatives of all three parties in this House. It is the first time in my recollection this year that we have had a united front presented by all the political parties in Wales upon a matter which affects our national interests. The fact that we are so united is indicative of the degree of apprehension which is entertained in the minds of Welsh people concerning this new move which the Minister of Health has seen fit to make. I am at one with the hon. and gallant Member for South Cardiff (Captain A. Evans) in wishing to treat this matter from a non-party point of view. I want to take no party advantage at all, but, as far as possible, to keep this appeal strictly as a national appeal. It is, however, important to bear clearly in mind one or two things. I do not argue that, in a matter of health, or a matter of education, or other matters, Wales possesses complete autonomy, or ever has possessed complete autonomy, but I am going to argue that, while it is perfectly true that we do not actually possess complete autonomy in various matters, the specifically Welsh point of view has been recognised repeatedly by this House in various ways and in various forms; and not only has it been recognised in a somewhat distant past, but even within the last month or two this recognition of the Welsh point of view has been made, as has been pointed out, by a colleague of the right hon. Gentleman himself, the President of the Board of Education.
Let me remind the House of some of the specific ways in which our Welsh claims have been recognised. We have a University Court of Education for Wales. We have a Welsh National Library, to which the national Exchequer contributes. We have a National Museum to which the Treasury contributes. We have a Central Welsh Board, not entirely autonomous, but still recognising that there exists a specifically Welsh point of view concerning education. Only a fortnight ago there was a discussion at Bangor on a proposition made by the President of the Board of Education. The proposal was turned down as being inadequate but, from the point of view of the President, it was an attempt to recognise the Welsh point of view. Not only that, but in the course of the last month, the President of the Board himself appointed a Chief Inspector of Education for Wales, another recognition of the fact that, from the point of view anyway of one Member of the Cabinet, there is a case for that Welsh point of view, even if there is not from the standpoint of the Minister of Health. Indeed, this very case itself has its origin really in the fact that there was more or less a formal recognition of Welsh aspirations through the creation of that group that we call the Insurance Commissioners for Wales. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) spoke to-night of their powers as compared with the powers of the Scotch and Irish Commissioners. I take it from him as being a statement of fact. Therefore there has been a tendency in the direction of giving greater and greater recognition to the Welsh point of view with regard to various administrative matters.
We come now to this particular step which the Minister of Health has taken. When the Ministry of Health Bill was carried, the powers of the Commissioners, as we knew them, were absorbed by the new Ministry of Health, but it is well from the point of view of our Debate to keep clearly in mind one or two things concerning them. When these Commissioners were taken over by the Ministry of Health, certain clear undertakings were given, and it is important that we should get from the Minister what exactly is his answer concerning the removal of these undertakings. What were the undertakings? A chairman, a secretary and one or two other heads of Departments were appointed. When these new heads of Departments passed under the Board, was it or was it not understood that the Chairman of the Board should have direct access to the Minister? That is most important from the administrative point of view, and certainly from the point of view of this change, because for the future there is going to be no chairman who is going to have direct access to the Minister. How can you argue that it will not interfere with the autonomy of this Board, and will not derogate from its prestige and authority, if you have removed the very officials who had direct access by agreement to the Minister of Health himself? I gather there was another understanding. Each of the heads of Departments, when this new reorganisation took place, was given to understand that in future he would be related to a similar officer in Whitehall. Note the word used. He was not to be "subordinated to," not "subjected to," but "related to." In the letter the Parliamentary Secretary wrote to the hon. Member for Central Cardiff (Mr. Lougher) the other day, he was extremely careful in his language. He does not say that these heads of Departments are to be "subject to" the heads of Departments at Whitehall. He uses the words "related to." If they were to be subject it would be quite easy to use the appropriate word. The purpose of that word "related" was, I understand, to maintain some sort of continuity of policy, so that the heads of Departments in Whitehall and the heads of similar Departments in Wales should pursue the same policy, and not that the Welsh Department should be subject to the Whitehall Department.
I pass on to the new proposition with which we are now confronted. The hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for South Cardiff has quoted the remarks of the then Minister of Health in 1919 when the Ministry of Health Bill was passed. Objection was taken to the proposal by some three or four Members of the House and the Minister, Dr. Addison, used the words the hon. and gallant Gentleman has quoted. But the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs was quite entitled to invite the Minister of Health to say by what authority he and the Parliamentary Secretary said in the letter that the Board is not a board. By what right does he say so? This is the Clause: Department like that, where there are large numbers of people of differing temperaments and personalities, there will arise from time to time little difficulties, trivial in themselves, which, however, unless attended to at once might become of some importance. In those circumstances you want someone on the spot to tackle those difficulties and settle them there and then. In the old days the Chairman could settle them. In the new days who is going to settle these small, finicky little things, which are probably of small importance intrinsically but, if allowed to develop and magnify, may become a rock of offence to a great number of people. Surely no one can argue with any assurance that there will not arise from time to time small difficulties which ought to be settled immediately by someone with some vestige of authority.
I pass on to another question. The Parliamentary Secretary wrote a letter the other day to the hon. Member for Central Cardiff containing a sentence of which I want a clear explanation. We cannot allow these half-insinuations to go around, and when they have the authority of a Minister of the Crown, it is highly important that we should get these things utterly and absolutely thrashed out. Let the House listen to this sentence:
On a point of Order. This speech is being made in the absence of the Minister. A protest was made earlier in the Debate at the absence of the Minister, and the explanation of his absence was adequate. The Minister has been absent throughout the whole of this speech and during part of the previous speech, and I wish to move the Adjournment of the House in order to call attention to the absence of the Minister.
That is not a point of Order, and, in the second place, the hon. Gentleman cannot move the Adjournment of the House.
With very great respect, I am quite prepared to accept the explanation as to the right hon. Gentleman's absence earlier in the Debate. We have been here the whole time.
So have I. The Minister has been here most of the time.
With great respect, it is a little intolerable that the second speech to be made from this Bench should be made without a single representative of the Government being present on the Treasury Bench. This is the second time that the Minister has been absent. I think that it is rather reprehensible that no one should be here to take note officially on behalf of the Minister of Health. Let me return to the subject with which I was dealing. The right hon. Gentleman who wrote this letter makes this insinuation, that there has been partiality in the promotions. Very well, I accept that for what it is worth, but if it be true, if the insinuation be founded upon fact, then the question must follow as to whether those promotions, if they have been made during the right hon. Gentleman's period of office, have been made with his sanction.
The right hon. Gentleman proposes to set up a Board of three. Who is going to guarantee that with this new Board of three there will not be quarrelling. We have been told that we cannot have a new Board; we cannot have a chairman, we cannot have a Secretary, as there is too much quarrelling going on. Who is going to guarantee that these three persons will not quarrel, for mark you, two of them still will be members of the old staff. How are they going to meet each other from time to time without having any altercations at all? And curiously enough, the appointments of the future will be handed over to the Director of Establishments who, I believe, is an Irishman. This is rather a humorous side of the position, to say the least of it.
Finally, I want to tell the House this. For my part, I am not here to pull the chestnuts out of the fire for anybody. I am not here to argue the case for any particular official, neither am I being egged forward or driven forward by any particular newspaper. But I say this to the Minister, or whoever may be in charge. If it be true that they cannot conduct the business of the Ministry of Health at Cardiff because of contention, then it is the business of the Minister to remove these people, because we cannot have a single individual standing in the way of the development of our national interests. However gifted they may be, however much may be their experience, and however wide may have been their service, if they have brought such a pass to bear in the Department that they can no longer agree with their colleagues, they must go. We must have that made perfectly clear. We are not going to have Welsh opinion sacrificed because of some individual standing in the way. That is all that I propose to say upon the matter. I want to know from the Minister to-night what is his answer to my charge that under his new arrangement no one at the Ministry of Health at Cardiff will have direct access to the Minister in Whitehall? What is his answer to the charge that head, of departments were given an understanding that they were not to be "subject to" but to be "related to" similar officers in Whitehall? And I want to know, if these questions cannot be answered, why the Minister has dared to offer this insult to our nation.
I entirely agree with some of the remarks of the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Morgan Jones), especially that we should not allow the personalities of any officials to interfere with the right status of the Board of Health in Wales. I have been waiting during this Debate to try and ascertain what is the status, and what are the rights and duties, of the Welsh Board of Health, because it seems to me that the whole of this trouble and misunderstanding has arisen because nobody has ever clearly defined what the duties of the Welsh Board of Health were or what they are to-day. We have heard suggestions; in fact, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) has expressed his charge against the Minister in these words: "There has been a complete breach of faith with Wales by the Minister's action." Later in his speech, he mentioned that Wales was losing in status and was being deprived of certain rights which her Board of Health had. That has already been the remark of most of the speakers. When the Debate took place in the Committee stage on the Ministry of Health Bill in 1919, there were various speakers on behalf of the Welsh people. The official speaker for the Welsh party on that day rather took umbrage at an Amendment that had been moved and seconded by two English Members that Clause 5 should be omitted from the Bill.
During the Debate the Member for Central Cardiff (Mr. Gould) made what I think was an exceedingly sensible speech, and which, if it had been replied to at the time by the then Parliamentary Secretary to the Local Government Board, might have prevented all this trouble. He said that the contention of Wales might very easily have been met if he—the Parliamentary Secretary —had described the functions which he was going to give to the Board. He submitted that much of the misunderstanding and disagreement with the Bill as it stood was due to the fact that the duties and powers of the Board were not described.
When we turn to Section 5 of the Ministry of Health Act, which is the section under which the Board is created, we find that it is very clearly defined that there shall be a Board of Health in Wales. That is a mandatory power to the Minister, and something which neither the present Minister nor any other Minister can get rid of without another Act of Parliament. It provides that there is to be a Board of Health in Wales. That is a certain fact, according to Section 5. We try to discover from this particular Section—not from the speeches of the Minister, which have no legal effect at all, although they may be evidence of intention, what was the intention. If the intention was to give this Board certain powers and duties and to make it absolutely a Welsh Board of Health, in the same way as the Scottish Board of Health, it was the duty of the Prime Minister of the day to see that that was put in the Bill, but it was not put in the Bill. What was put in the Bill were the words that the Minister
What Wales wants to-day is to have a real Welsh Board of Health set up under Section 5 of the Act, to form the Minister's administration body in Wales, to co-ordinate the whole of the insurance and health matters in Wales and to take cognisance of and to recognise Welsh temperament, Welsh character and Welsh nationality. If the Minister will do that, he will satisfy all reasonable Welsh opinion. It is not the personnel of the Board with which we are concerned to-night. What we wish to see is a real Board in fact as well as in name. If the Minister cannot get rid of the Board, I do urge him to use it and to make it an effective Board, and by doing that he will satisfy everybody. The arguments which have been put forward by several of the newspapers are rather wide of the mark. There has been a feeling in Wales, so far as I am able to judge, that there has been some neglect of Welsh national aspirations, and this particular matter has been seized upon and magnified out of all proportion to its real status. The fact that a Board which has never been operative has lost its chairman, cannot be a great offence to Wales, but the fact that the Board never did function as it was intended, according to the speeches of Dr. Addison, was a neglect of Welsh national aspirations. I hope the Minister of Health will in future see that what the Board was intended to be, according to the speeches of Dr. Addison, it will be so far as Wales is concerned.
Will the hon. and gallant Member tell us whether there is any difference in the definition of the duties of the Welsh Board of Health, answerable to the Minister of Health for England and Wales, as compared with the definition of the duties of the Scottish Board of Health, answerable to the Secretary of State for Scotland?
I do not know.
Then why did the hon. and gallant Member say so?
I did not say that there was any difference between the Welsh Board of Health and the Scottish Board of Health. What I said was that the definition of the Welsh Board of Health is laid down in Section 5 of the Act of 1919, and we are bound by that Section and that alone.
The hon. and gallant Member for Pembroke (Major Price) cannot speak a second time.
I have no specialised knowledge of the question which we have been discussing in regard to Wales, and I should like to refer to the question of housing and the question of the Poor Law. In the first place, I should like to deal with the general administration of the Housing Acts of 1923 and 1924, and the right hon. Gentleman's administration of the Housing (Rural Workers) Act, 1926. Almost two years ago the right hon. Gentleman brought the Housing (Rural Workers) Bill into this House, in respect of which he made certain modest claims which were greeted by the supporters of the Government with considerable enthusiasm.
I beg to call attention to the fact that there are not 40 Members present.
On this Allotted day, we cannot possibly take a count.
On the last occasion, when we were discussing the Ministry of Health Vote some consideration was given to the administration of the Housing (Rural Workers) Act. Last November, in answer to a question by one of my hon. Friends as to the operation of that Act, we were informed that in November last, 15 months after the right hon. Gentleman had brought his Bill into this House, applications had been received by local authorities in England and Wales with regard to 271 houses, that assistance had been promised in respect of 31 dwellings, and that on 15 dwellings work had been started.
During the last few weeks a question was asked as to the operations of this Act which was to recondition rural cottages in England and Wales, and we were told in, reply that up to the 31st March local authorities had promised assistance for the reconditioning of 334 cottages in England and Wales, that in the case of 176 cottages reconditioning was actually in progress, and that 44 cottages had been reconditioned. I did not anticipate any results from the operation of this Act; and events since have proved this to be correct. The difference between November and March of this year is that 30 cottages, out of the hundreds of thousands in rural England and Wales, have been improved, notwithstanding the fact that towards the end of last year the Minister, driven desperate by the extent to which local authorities have ignored this Act, sent out a most fervent appeal to them to take what steps they could. That Act has proved to be a dead letter; and if the right hon. Gentleman believes that he can deal with the slum problem in the towns in the same way I predict that he will have the same result.
I turn to the general housing position. More than one hon. Member has congratulated the Minister on the progress that has been made. It is perfectly true that up to October of last year there was a rising curve in the production of houses under the 1923 and 1924 Acts. At the beginning of October the reduced subsidy took effect; and the real reason why during the summer of last year there was an increased output of houses was that all local authorities, quite naturally, wished to profit by the larger subsidy and complete their houses before the reduced subsidy came into operation. When we have raised this question before the reply of the Minister has been that while it was perfectly true that after the local authorities had speeded up their housing building there was a period of reaction, but that period of reaction would soon be over and we should have as large an output of houses as before. The facts do not bear out the right hon. Gentleman's contention. According to his own figures there are, at the present time, less than two-thirds of the number of houses being completed each month, or in course of erection each month, under the two Housing Acts, whether by private enterprise or by municipal enterprise, than was the case in the months preceding the announcement that he was reducing the subsidy.
The object of the 1923 Act, according to the right hon. Gentleman, was to revive private enterprise. In each of the two months prior to December, 1926, when the right hon. Gentleman brought forward his proposal to reduce the subsidy, the number of houses under construction was round about 10,000. At the present time, under private enterprise, under the 1923 Act, the number of houses actually under construction during the last two months is about 3,500, which is almost one-third the number of houses actually constructed by private enterprise less than two years ago. Whether you consider the 1923 Act or the 1924 Act, or subsidy houses built by private enterprise, or subsidy houses built by local authorities, whether you consider the houses actually built or the houses under construction each month, the position to-day, as a result of the reduction in the subsidy is that there is a very considerable reduction in the number of subsidy houses being built.
The case put forward by the right hon. Gentleman when he proposed the reduction in the subsidy was that it would reduce prices and that reduced prices would lead to an increase in the number of houses. Either he, or general economic causes, have reduced the cost of houses within the last two years. I am going to give the right hon. Gentleman the credit himself for having reduced the cost of house building, but I put this question to him, as I have before, that it is no solution of the housing question to reduce the price of houses if you also reduce the numbers of houses that are built. If you reduced the price of each house to £200 it would appear to be a great victory, but the truth is that you would have no houses built at all. That is no solution of the housing question. Although the right hon. Gentleman has reduced the cost of houses—there is now a tendency for it to increase—the truth is that the price of houses follows more or less the demand, and the reduction which took place in the cost was consequent upon a reduction in the demand. If the right hon. Gentleman will go back month by month to 1919 and take the number of contracts let to local authorities or private builders he will find that there is a close correspondence, and if he reduces the demand by local authorities for houses by reducing the subsidy he will undoubtedly reduce the price of houses; but that does not mean that there will be more houses built.
The right hon. Gentleman has had nine months of the operation of this subsidy and the truth is that to-day the rate of building is little more than half what it was before he announced that he was going to reduce the subsidy by £25 per house. What has he accomplished by it? He has saved some money for the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but he has not built houses. And I am going to say—I hope he will face me with it if I am proved to be wrong—that under the present sub- sidy the right hon. Gentleman will never get up to the average building of the 12 months prior to the reduction of the subsidy because, as I have pointed out, the reduction of the subsidy is bound to result in many areas, has already resulted in some, in a diminution in the number of houses to be built. It would be quite possible, as the late right hon. Member for Carmarthen (Sir A. Mond) showed, to bring down the price of houses below the price of production by cutting off orders for houses.
What has happened is what happened when Dr. Addison resigned his post as Minister of Health in the Coalition Government, and Sir Alfred Mond, now a member of the Upper House, succeeded him. What happened was not that any more houses were built, but that existing contracts were continued and no new orders were given for houses. The result was that the price of houses fell below the actual economic cost of the houses. When the right hon. Gentleman the present Minister of Health introduced his Bill in 1923 and it began to operate, the price of houses immediately rose because the demand for houses rose. Now the right hon. Gentleman is playing exactly the same tactics as his predecessor in 1921, not of directly reducing the demand for houses, but of indirectly reducing the demand by reducing the subsidy. To-day, notwithstanding the admitted demand for houses, notwithstanding the fact that two out of every three of the reports of medical officers of health in the country draw attention to the need for more houses and the existence of overcrowding, notwithstanding the admitted need for a very large building programme, the position is that the amount of unemployment amongst builders is higher than it has been for some years at this season of the year.
I quote the Ministry of Labour returns for unemployment in the building trade. I am well aware that the whole of these persons are not engaged on house building, but I am going to suggest that the large increase of unemployment amongst builders as a whole is proof, in the absence of any other evidence, that there has been an increase in unemployment amongst house builders. At the end of June, 1927, according to the Ministry of Labour, there were rather over 55,000 people unemployed in the building trade. At the end of June of this year the number was over 80,000—an increase of 25,000 in a year for a comparable season. In other words, in the building trades of this country during the past 12 months, as a result of the operation of the Minister's reduction of the subsidy, unemployment has increased by 50 per cent. People who are employed in the building trade are not in the same position as employés in the iron and steel trade or the coal industry. They are members of an industry whose services are urgently needed, and the whole of the personnel of the building industry could well be employed on the building of houses. The truth is that the Ministry's efforts to deal with the housing problem have slackened distinctly, with the result that we are back now where we were two, three and four years ago, and that the amount of building to-day is no tribute to the Government, but is a disgrace to the Government. And the main problem still remains.
9.0 p.m.
I know it is very difficult to argue about how many houses are needed in the country. It depends upon your standard of what a house ought to be. If you have a very low standard of housing it may be that no more houses are needed. If hon. Members opposite think it is quite right that two families or three families should live in one house, there is no building problem. If they think that any kind of shelter is good enough, there is no housing problem. But if we take a reasonable standard of housing, and if we regard it as essential that every family should have a home where it is possible that a decent standard of civilised life can be lived, it is quite clear that there is still an enormous demand for houses. While that demand remains no Government is entitled to take any steps which will reduce the efforts of local authorities or private builders to cope with the housing problem. I find it very difficult to express in words which would be permitted my feeling of utter disapproval of the reduction of the housing subsidy. The whole purpose of the reduction was to help the Exchequer. The whole result of the reduction has been, within the last nine months, to deprive of new houses several thousand families who would have enjoyed new houses had the old subsidy continued in operation.
I would like to say a little about the question of the Poor Law. I view the Government's policy on the Poor Law with great perturbation. I had understood that the Conservative party believed in the powers of self-government. I do not think you could find, since the modern system of local government was established in this country, any Government which has done more to undermine self-government than the present Government. The right hon. Gentleman has been complimented to-day as being a progressive and humane and sympathetic Minister. I am going to waste no words of congratulation on him. I admit his efficiency; I am sorry to have to deny his humanity and sympathy, because the whole of the Poor Law policy of the Government in the last four years has been to undermine and destroy the initiative and freedom of local self-governing authorities. The right hon. Gentleman passed the Boards of Guardians (Default) Act. Not many days ago in this House we submitted a Prayer against the prolongation of the powers of the nominated guardians in three areas. We were told by the Parliamentary Secretary that, after all, the Government had been very modest, that they had suppressed only three boards of guardians. But that is not the point. The effect of the suppression of three boards of guardians, carefully selected geographically, one in London, one in the North of England, and one in South Wales, was to put before every local authority in this country an example of what would happen to them if they dared to defy the right hon. Gentleman.
The result is that many boards of guardians, to-day, are paying out-relief at rates even lower than those of the nominated boards of guardians, because they fear the right hon. Gentleman. They are afraid that unless they toe his mark, unless they are prepared to agree to 12s. for a wife, unless they agree, as my hon. Friend the Member for Chesterle-Street (Mr. Lawson) has said, to 4s. 6d. per person per week in out-relief, they may be suppressed—more particularly if they happen to be in debt to the Minister. Unfortunately, through circumstances over which this Government have no con- trol, through general world-wide economic circumstances, there has been a trade de pression which has led a number of boards of guardians to borrow money in order to meet current expenses. If the right hon. Gentleman does not wish to suppress them he has always this power. When they come to him to borrow, in order to meet the dire needs of the public in their areas, he can always say: "I will lend you the money, but—." The "but" means that they must reduce the rates of relief and be a little more stingy to the old men and women and cut down the tobacco and so forth. The right hon. Gentleman has his inspectors, who, quite properly, carry out his policy. Then he has those extraordinary civil servants called auditors, for whom he takes no responsibility, and for whom nobody takes responsibility, but who, curiously enough, happen to reflect the temper of the Government of the day.
The auditors, the inspectors, the Ministry itself, whether by admonition and advice, or, by the object-lesson of the nominated boards of guardians have deprived the unemployed workers and their families, in the last two or three years, of millions of pounds which would have been of considerable advantage to them. If the right hon. Gentleman thinks that is to his credit, I do not agree with him. He has succeeded in reducing the cost of poor relief. He has even succeeded in reducing the number of people sufficiently poor to come on poor relief; but, as I have pointed out more than once, it is the easiest thing in the world to reduce official figures. If you were to give me an Unemployment Insurance Act to administer and if I had complete power over the amount of unemployment benefit, I could, within a few weeks, reduce unemployment to nothing—officially. The right hon. Gentleman, in pursuit of his policy, in this hounding on of boards of guardians to refuse relief to able-bodied unemployed, has reduced the number of people who are returned as being in receipt of poor relief, but he has not, by that process, reduced the number of poor and destitute people in England and Wales by one.
The figures which are published periodically of the number in receipt of out-relief and poor relief generally, are entirely fictitious. Those figures respond to administrative policy, and the administrative policy of the right hon. Gentleman has been to make it as uncomfortable as possible for the distressed poor and to get rid of them from the Poor Law. We have had a vicious circle since 1925 with the Minister of Labour "chivvying" people off unemployment benefit on to the Minister of Health, and the Minister of Health "chivvying" them off the boards of guardians, either on to the streets, or else to sponge on their relatives. This browbeating of the boards of guardians is not statesmanlike. It is shortsighted, because it does nothing whatever to deal with the fundamental problem. Assume, if you like, that half the people in receipt of Poor Law relief ought not to have it. I do not accept that as a fact, but let us assume it. What about the other half? Even if we assume that half a million people ought not to have this relief what about the other half million people who are being denied relief by boards of guardians acting in terrorem —acting under the influence of the right hon. Gentleman and his auditors and his inspectors and his powers under the law.
My hon. Friend the Member for Chester-le-Street made a parallel which I think ought to be pushed even further than he pushed it. To-day the treatment of criminals is infinitely better than it was years ago. Home Secretary after Home Secretary has done everything he could to improve the accommodation, the methods of treatment and the administration in connection with the prison system. While the right hon. Gentleman's colleague the Home Secretary has been humanising the prison system, the right hon. Gentleman himself has been degrading and demoralising the poor-relief system. It is extraordinary that to-day the man who has been convicted of a disgusting offence will get better treatment from the State, from the public, from the community, than the man who is down and out. That is the truth. If I were in the position of hundreds of thousands of unemployed men to-day, I would commita crime rather than submit to poverty because, then, I would be better treated. It is a very serious state of affairs when a great community like this bends its energies, in one direction to a more humane system and when men convicted in courts of law of offences against the community are better treated than those who, through no fault of their own, have been sent to the industrial scrap heap for the time being. It is an indictment of our existing organisation that the criminal is, treated better than the honest unemployed.
If the right hon. Gentleman will stand up and say that the unemployed are as disgraceful, and as unworthy members of the community as the criminals, we shall have a basis of discussion. But hon. Members opposite are prepared to assert ad nauseam that the unemployed are good fellows, honest citizens and fathers of families who have fallen on evil days. We have been assured of that by the Prime Minister. Why then has the policy of the Government, through the Minister of Health, for the last three years and particularly for the last two years been directed towards treating these people worse than felons are treated in our public prisons. No Department of State is more concerned with the poor than the Ministry of Health. It ought to be the Department, above all others, prepared to protect and provide for the poor. The contribution which the Minister of Health in this Government has made to the well-being of the poor has been to produce fewer houses for them and to subject them to a repressive Poor Law administration.
The right hon. Gentleman has had a long connection with local government. He has had some reputation as a great local government administrator. I believe his Act of 1923 was a misguided attempt to deal with an important question. He was less concerned then with local government than with the restoration of private enterprise in the building industry, but, given that Act, the 1923 Act—I am not going to deny that when we were in office we continued its operation—each year of the right hon. Gentleman's administration has become more reactionary than the preceding one, until now we are in the position, in the last year of an ill-fated, ill-starred Government, of judging the Minister of Health's administration on two big questions. I refer to the question of housing and to the question of the poor.
I hold the right hon. Gentleman responsible for the fact that to-day there are working class families who are having to subsist on much less than a reasonable minimum standard of life, not people who are wasters, not people who have been guilty of any fault, but men who would be the pride and the pets of the Tory party should there be another war. Any number of the men who took part in the last War, whose services are not needed, are being treated in a way in which Conservatives dared not have said they would treat them from 1914 to 1918; and I hold the right hon. Gentleman responsible for the fact that at this moment there are several thousand families in this country who are without houses built under his Act or the Act of 1924 entirely because the right hon. Gentleman reduced the subsidy. If any Minister gets up in this House and, by any act of his, deprives one family of a house which they could have had, I am not giving him my support, and I say that he has not been true to his public trust.
We shall not be long before the House goes into Recess. I hope the right hon. Gentleman's conscience will be tortured during the Recess with two great outstanding facts, first, with the recognition of the fact that there are to-day, in some of the most depressed areas in this country, families who are living—they are not living, but existing—on the lowest possible standard of existence as a direct result of the Government's policy; and, secondly, with the recollection of the fact that there are many thousands of families up and down England and Wales who at this moment would be living in new houses but for the fact that the right hon. Gentleman, at the beck and call of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, reduced the subsidy. The Government are at the nadir of their fortunes. They never stood very high in the country's estimation, but they are now down at the bottom, and in the unpopularity of the Government to-day among the great mass of thinking people the Minister of Health is perhaps the most important factor. He has given his old age pensions, but it is little use giving old age pensions, which require £12,000,000 a year contribution from the workers of this country and only £4,000,000 from the State, when at the same time he is doing his best to deprive the rank and file of the destitute of even a minimum, moderate standard of existence, and when, by his mistaken financial policy, he reduces the subsidy and deprives numbers of them of houses which they might have had. I regret that it was not possible for us to move a reduction of this Vote, but I am going to say, however much it may be misunderstood, however much it may be misrepresented by hon. Members opposite, that in order to enter our protest against the Minister's administration, we propose to vote against the Vote for his Department.
The hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Greenwood) has concluded his observations with the amiable hope that I should spend the Recess tortured in my conscience on account of the lapses which he alleges against me in my administration. There is no member of the Government who is responsible for the administration of government in this country but has from time to time to accept responsibilities and to make decisions upon subjects where it is easy to make a mistake. Far be it from me to claim that I am above other people and that I never make mistakes, but, so far as my conscience is concerned, my conscience is clear. I have attempted to do my duty where it has seemed to me my duty lay, and if, as the hon. Member has said, the people of this country lay to my door all the misfortunes which have come to any section or class, whatever the cause may be, I hope at the same time that they will be generous enough to remember the things that I have done which have helped many thousands or hundreds of thousands of working class families to obtain new and better accommodation than they had before and to remember the many hundreds of thousands of persons who have obtained pensions which this Government were the first to give them.
This Debate has ranged over a very wide field, a fact which in itself illustrates the importance of the work of the Department over which I have the honour to preside. We have discussed Poor Law, tuberculosis, vaccination, milk, hop picking, housing, slums and the Welsh Board of Health. I do not know whether I can deal with all of these in the time that I have at my disposal, but I will endeavour to do so if I can find the opportunity; and I think I had better begin with the question of the Welsh Board of Health, because that perhaps lies a little outside the general run of the discussions which we have had. I understand that during a short temporary absence some hon. Members made some very derogatory remarks. I think it was a little unreasonable of them if that were so, and perhaps they did not remember, first of all, that none of them had given me notice of the time at which they intended to raise this particular point, that I had some unofficial information which led me to believe that it would be at Eight o'clock, that I had made my arrangements to be back at that time, and that furthermore, in the absence of my right hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary, who for reasons of health has had to go abroad for a time, I have the whole of the work of my Department on my own shoulders, and it was absolutely necessary for me to leave this House for a very short time to deal with a number of urgent questions.
The Minister will be aware that we expressed our regret immediately we knew that the Parliamentary Secretary was away, and that we were never told the reason why he was absent.
I was not referring at all to the hon. and gallant Member, but to someone else.
I called attention to the right hon. Gentleman's absence after eight o'clock, after the right hon. Gentleman says he made arrangements to be present. The time when I called attention to it was between a quarter-past and half-past eight.
I had originally made arrangements to be here by eight o'clock, but, as I found that the information which I had got was not correct and that the question was raised at seven instead of eight, I had to come back. I was here between half-past seven and eight, and I had to go out after that to deal with the matters to which I have referred. I do not want to make too much of it, but I did wish to give that explanation to the House in view of some of the criticisms which have been passed in regard to my absence. I am glad the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) has returned to the House, because when he comes and lends his authority to a complaint and states his views on this matter, one pays particular attention to what he says, and more particularly because he was Prime Minister at the time when the Welsh Board of Health was originally constituted. The right hon. Gentleman quoted me as saying that the Board never was a Board in the ordinary sense of the word, and he went on to ask what right had I to alter an Act of Parliament which said it was a Board. I did not alter the Act. I did not say it was not a Board. I said it was not a Board in the ordinary sense of the word. I repeat that, and say it is not a Board, and never has been, in the ordinary sense of the word. Why do I say that? Because a Board in the ordinary sense of the word is an executive body, and the Welsh Board of Health has never been an executive body since it was set up.
The right hon. Gentleman said he was stating facts, but his facts will not bear investigation. Only the other day, he stated some facts about a speech which I recently delivered in the House he Commons, but, unfortunately, he stated the facts exactly in the reverse sense to which I had stated them. On a previous occasion he suggested that I had suppressed a passage in the OFFICIAL REPORT of my speech, but it turned out to be in the OFFICIAL REPORT. I do hope the right hon. Gentleman will not make a habit of misrepresenting what I say, because I always take a little trouble before I make statements, and I never make them without trying to ascertain what the real facts are. Some hon. Members who may not have had personal knowledge of what took place in this House at the time when the Board was first set up, may perhaps have been led away by something which the right hon. Gentleman said when he accused me of having deprived Wales of powers which it did have similar to those of Scotland. It is not correct that the Welsh Board ever had the powers of the Scottish Board of Health. I must make one or two quotations of what took place in the year 1919 in support of what I have said. At that time there was a claim by Welsh Members, just as we have had a claim from Welsh Members this afternoon, that Wales should have the same sort of autonomy in this matter as Scotland. It was put forward by the hon. Member for Pontypool (Mr. T. Griffiths) who said:
Is that not referring to the claim for a Secretary for Wales?
Hon. Members then wanted a Minister for Wales, but Dr. Addison did not argue as to whether you should have a Minister or Secretary for Wales. What he said was that that was not the place to do it, and that the question of devolution was an entirely different question. Here we are dealing simply with the machinery of health, and he claimed that whatever autonomy the Welsh Insurance Commission possessed in Wales they would retain. They are simply transferred to the Minister of Health instead of remaining attached to the Financial Secretary.
That is all we claimed.
That is all there has ever been.
You have taken away the chairman.
I am coming to that, but the hon. Member must allow me to proceed in my own way. What I am dealing with now is the position of the Welsh Board of Health when it was set up by Dr. Addison, and, I have given quotations from Dr. Addison himself which show quite clearly that he was asked to do the very thing which is being claimed now, and he refused to do it on the ground that that was neither the time nor the place.
Dr. Addison also said that the Welsh Board of Health was given the whole scope of the duties and functions of the Ministry so that it would be made infinitely wider than it was then.
I am coming to that. He went on to say that an Amendment was moved to the original draft of the Bill and it was on the discussion of this Amendment in Standing Committee that Dr. Addison said:
I wish again to repeat what I said to a deputation which came to me on this subject. Those who have seen in my administrative action in regard to the Chairman of the Board something sinister and part of a policy leading up to either the abolition of the Board or the gradual whittling away of its powers are finding something there which is entirely in their own imagination, and is not, and never has been, in the mind of the Minister. This is really purely an administrative matter. The right hon. Gentleman seemed almost to wish to dictate to me whom I should appoint as Chairman. That is a matter for which the Minister who is responsible for the Welsh Board must decide for himself. He must be allowed to consider in the interests of the health of the people of Wales how the Welsh Board can best be constituted.
As to the question of economy, when I decided for reasons which appeared to me sufficient and satisfactory, that I could not appoint any existing member of the Board to be chairman, I had to consider whether I should bring in somebody else. I was placed in this position, that the work of the Board of Health has not been executive. The Board has found so little to do that on the average it has met only three times a year during the last nine years. All its work has been done by the members in their individual capacity. It has been extremely efficiently done, and I have not heard any complaints about it. To bring in a chairman, who would really have no functions, at a cost of £1,600 a year—it may be said that that is a trifle, but why spend £1,600 unnecessarily?—would be a course in which I should not be justified.
There is one other matter to which the right hon. Gentleman referred, that is, the promotions. He says that the question of promotions is the very essence of the problem. I am not sure that I accept that definition, although if he means that the success of any administration depends upon the personnel who administer it, I entirely agree. It is quite true, therefore, that in that sense the people who make promotions are the people who must exercise very powerful influence in the future on the administration of the work, but the right hon. Gentleman said that the promotions are made by the Promotions Board. That is not so. The promotions are made by the Minister, and all that the Promotions Board can do is to make recommendations to the Minister. That is all that they have done in the past. What have I to consider in this case? It is not my desire to bring out into publicity anything in the nature of a reflection upon any members of the staff in Wales. I thought it necessary, in receiving the deputation, to say, something about it, and I thought that they would consider it as a private matter between themselves and myself, but since it has been made public, I will say that here is a case, not of any dishonourable action on the part of anybody, but of a series of petty personal squabbles that have taken place in the office. The right hon. Gentleman asked why, if I were not satisfied, I did not discipline them. I did discipline them and censure them—that is, those who had been guilty of subordinating the public interest to their own personal prejudices and feelings. The matter was settled, but to put one of those who had been concerned in these internal differences into a position in which he could or might affect the promotion of others with whom the differences has been, did not seem to me a step which I could possibly take in the interest of the administration of public health. Now I come to the larger question of Poor Law relief.
Is that the right hon. Gentleman's last word? He can quite understand why we were annoyed at his absence, because he has not answered a single question put by the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Morgan Jones). They were important questions. It is something to be ashamed of, and it is an insult to Wales.
If I took up much more time on this subject it would be a great injustice to other hon. Members. I do not think that there is any part of my duties which gives me more anxiety than that which has to do with the administration of the Poor Law. There is a constructive side to the Ministry of Health, which is one in which any Minister must take pride and satisfaction; but, when you come to the administration of the Poor Law, you have frequently to strike a balance between what some hon. Members call humanity, and one's duty to the community as a whole, and in the long run to the people themselves. It is very often a very difficult decision to take. But while hon. Members opposite have directed their criticism very largely to the proceedings of the appointed boards of guardians, I will recall the fact that the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne has stated that the scales of relief, or the methods of relief, of the appointed boards of guardians were in many cases more generous than the elected boards. He said, however, that the boards take that course out of fear of the Minister of Health. He knows perfectly well what are the conditions under which the Boards of Guardians (Default) Act can be put into operation, and the guardians themselves are well aware of them. Where a board of guardians have so far outrun their own resources that they are obliged to ask for the loan of national money, it is the duty of the Minister to exercise some control. In districts which have been rendered necessitous by unemployment, we find that the financial situation of the authorities is such that one cannot ensure that loans will ever be repaid. Therefore, they have to be considered as loans which may ultimatoly be grants.
The alternative is to starve.
The hon. Member must not say that, because we have not found any cases of starvation. I agree that there are many cases of hardship, but if it be really laid down by hon. Members opposite that those who are unable to support themselves—
Through no fault of their own.
are to be supported by the State on the same scale as those in full work, I say that we cannot possibly do it.
Does the right hon. Gentleman consider that the children of parents who are out of work and unable to provide for them through no fault of their own, are to be reduced to the level of not being able to get proper subsistence and to be partially starved? That is what you are doing in tens of thousands of cases.
That is begging the question.
It is not begging the question; you never face a question.
One must remember that all persons who are unemployed are not heroes; a great many of them are decent, honest people who are genuinely desirous of getting work, yet one cannot lose sight of the fact that everybody is not like that, and one must take precautions.
We have several times asked the Parliamentary Secretary of the Ministry whether they justify the 12s. per woman and 2s. per child scale in Chester-le-Street.
That question was discussed when the Prayer was presented against the prolongation of the powers of the appointed guardians, and the House heard the arguments and decided that an Order should be made. I cannot be drawn aside to discuss that specific question, because I am dealing rather with the general question and with the policy of the Ministry of Health throughout the country. Hon. Members opposite, for their own party purposes, desire to pick out certain areas—
That is not true. [HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"] We do not give a button about party. We are not cowards. [HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"]
They try to find something they can exploit out of some hard cases to be found in those areas, but, apart from the areas in which the appointed guardians operate, there are other areas where elected guardians are carrying out exactly the same policy.
The right hon. Gentleman said that he was going to reply to the question about corn-grinding.
Order!
Complaint has been made about the reduction of the grant given for milk. I very much regret that it should be necessary to make any reduction in this grant. The way of the economist is very hard, because, although everybody is in favour of economy in general and in the abstract, the moment one begins to put economy into practice in any particular instance somebody gets up and says that is the very last object on which economy should begin. We have to bear in mind the fact that the practice of local authorities as regards the amount of milk which they give varies enormously. Some give nothing at all and in other areas the expenditure is up to as much as £20 per 1,000 of the population, and all authorities cannot be equally right in this matter. There really is a difference of practice which, I daresay, arises from the action of particular individuals on certain authorities who are particularly keen upon this special form of assistance to nursing and expectant mothers. We have not laid down in a single case that that assistance is to be stopped. We have not forbidden any local authority to give milk, or to give as much milk as it chooses; all that we have said is that we must limit the amount of the Exchequer grant, and, in any case, the amount by which we have reduced the Exchequer grant is comparatively small. It is not a matter of policy on our part to reduce the amount of milk; if it were not for economy I should not have done anything at all in regard to it, and I would not admit that this economy is going to undo the work which has been done in the past in the preservation of infant life. The hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Mr. Harris) is really mistaken when he says that the Ministry have required boards of guardians to diminish the supply of milk. What happened was this. Having stated that the Exchequer grant in certain cases would have to be reduced, I went on to make certain suggestions which the local authorities could adopt if they desired to reduce their expenditure with the least possible dis- turbance to their existing practice. That is all that was embodied in those letters. It was not an instruction or a demand or a requirement, but merely a suggestion to local authorities, which they could adopt or not as they chose.
With regard to hop picking, I think the hon. Member who raised that question is well aware that the Ministry of Health has very little power in this matter. We really have very little power beyond that of exhortation. What we want in this matter is the education of public opinion. No doubt the conditions in the hop fields are very far from being what they should be, and I have done what I could to induce local authorities to adopt model by-laws in that respect, and, when they have adopted them, to see that they are carried out. In the absence of further powers it is not possible for me to do more. I am glad to think that conditions are improving, although I agree that there is much to be done.
Questions were asked about tuberculosis, and my hon. Friend the Member for Oxford City (Captain Bourne) expressed some doubt as to whether we could be satisfied that the money which was spent upon sanatorium treatment was justified by the results achieved. We have not got figures from sanatoria all through the country which would show exactly what has happened to people after they have been discharged from sanatoria, but some time ago we did get from the Brompton Hospital sanatorium particulars of between 3,000 and 4,000 patients who had been discharged. They showed, in regard to the moderately advanced cases, that after five years 57 per cent. of the males and 67 per cent. of the females were not only alive but apparently in good health, and that after 10 years 38 per cent. of the males and nearly 50 per cent. of the females were also alive and, as far as I know, in good health. I am very glad to be able to give this reassuring statement, which does indicate that the money spent upon sanatoria is well spent; it prolongs the lives of many people and saves the lives of a good many others, and even where it is not able to do this it does much to diminish the infection which otherwise might take place amongst the healthy population.
In the few minutes left to me I wish to deal with the question of housing. The hon. Member for Nelson and Colne has attacked me on the question of rural housing and on the reduction of the subsidy. He said the Rural Housing Act was a failure, that he had prophesied that it would be a failure, and, though he did not say he was glad to find that his prophecy was correct, I suppose he found that satisfaction which we all feel when our predictions come true. I am hopeful that he will be bitterly disappointed, because although it is quite true that the progress up to March, 1928, had been singularly disappointing, in the three months since then progress has been very much faster. The number of dwellings in respect of which applications for assistance have been received, which was only 1,072 up to March, 1928, has increased to 1,500, that is, by 50 per cent., in the succeeding three months.
I have been attacked on rural housing and the reduction of the subsidy, but I believe that in time it will be taken advantage of by local authorities throughout the country. I should like to know where the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne stands in reference to the reduction of the subsidy, because he said that the reduction in the subsidy caused a reduction in the demand for houses. How can that be? It could only be so if it caused a rise in the price. The hon. Member admitted that the subsidy reduction did not cause an increase in the price, but a decrease. It is not true to say that when I introduced the reduction in the subsidy I said that I did so in order to save money to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, because I deliberately stated at the time, much to the disappointment of the hon. Member, that my reason for advocating a reduction of the subsidy was that I had observed that the price of houses varied according to the amount of the subsidy, and when it was increased the price of houses increased. Therefore, I argued that if you reduced the subsidy the price of houses would go down.
I reduced the subsidy £25 per house and the price of houses has been reduced since by £82 per house, and to-day we are in a position to buy houses £57 cheaper than before the subsidy was introduced. It is perfectly true that after the tremendous race to get as many houses as possible before the subsidy was reduced there was a period of waiting. The local authorities saw that there was a slump in prices, and they had to see that they had really got to the bottom of it. Consequently, they are not placing large contracts now, but they are entering into day-to-day contracts, because they see that the price is moving down, and they do not want to commit themselves to very large contracts. Concurrently, we must remember that the demand for the type of houses which the local authorities have been building has, to a great extent, been completely met. As a matter of fact, they cannot find people who can afford to pay the rents of the houses which they have been building in the past, and they have now to consider how they can provide houses for the poorer classes. Month after month not only the number of houses completed continues to go up, but also the number of houses under construction, and that number, which was only 48,000 last January, is to-day 59,000. Therefore, I say that I am satisfied with that result, although, of course, owing to various circumstances—the fact that there has been a drop in the subsidy, and the fact that we had to alter somewhat the type of houses which were being built—there was a reduction in the number of houses built, yet the number of houses is now steadily going up, and I shall be very much surprised if we do not get another 100,000 houses completed before the end of this year.
Question put, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
The House divided: Ayes, 255; Noes, 132.
Division No. 360.] AYES. [10.0 p.m. Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) Bellairs, Commander Carlyon Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Astor, Viscountess Bennett, A. J. Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Atholl, Duchess of Bethel, A. Allen, Sir J. Sandeman Atkinson, C. Betterton, Henry B. Allen, Lieut.-Col. Sir William James Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Bevan, S. J. Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Balfour, George (Hampstead) Birchall, Major J. Dearman Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Bainlel, Lord Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) Ashley, Lt-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Barnett, Major Sir Richard Blundell, F. N. Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E.(Bristol, N.) Perkins, Colonel E. K. Braithwaite, Major A. N. Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Philipson, Mabel Brass, Captain W. Hacking, Douglas H. Pilditch, Sir Philip Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Pownall, Sir Assheton Brittain, Sir Harry Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Preston, William Brocklebank, C. E. R. Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Pringle, J. A. Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Harrison, G. J. C. Radford, E. A. Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) Raine, Sir Walter Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Haslam, Henry C Ramsden, E. Buckingham, Sir H. Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. Rawson, Sir Cooper Burman, J. B. Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington) Burton, Colonel H. W. Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian Rentoul, G. S. Butler, Sir Geoffrey Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Henn, Sir Sydney H. Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Caine, Gordon Hall Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. Roberts, E. H. G (Flint) Campbell, E. T. Hills, Major John Waller Robinson, Sir T. (Lane., Stretford) Carver, Major W. H. Hilton, Cecil Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Cassels, J. D. Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Ropner, Major L. Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt, R. (Prtsmth. S.) Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Hopkins, J. W. W. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.) Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) Rye, F. G. Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Salmon, Major I Chapman, Sir S. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Clarry, Reginald George Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) Sandeman, N. Stewart Cobb, Sir Cyril Hume, Sir G. H. Sanderson, Sir Frank Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George Hurd, Percy A. Savery, S. S. Cohen, Major J. Brunel Hurst, Gerald B. Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Iliffe, Sir Edward M. Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Colman, N. C. D. Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Shepperson, E. W. Cooper, A. Duff Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Slaney, Major P. Kenyon Cope, Major Sir William James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) Couper, J. B. Jephcott, A. R. Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) Smith-Carington, Neville W. Cowan Sir Wm. Henry (Islingtn. N.) Kindersley, Major G. M. Smithers, Waldron Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) King, Commodore Henry Douglas Southby, Commander A. R. J. Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Knox, Sir Alfred Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Lamb, J. Q. Sprot, Sir Alexander Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) Cunliffe, Sir Herbert Loder, J. de V. Steel, Major Samuel Strang Davidson, Major-General Sir John H. Long, Major Eric Streatfeild, Captain S. R. Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Lougher, Lewis Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Dawson, Sir Philip Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere Styles, Captain H. W. Dean, Arthur Wellesley Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert Lumley, L. R. Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Drewe, C. Lynn, Sir R. J. Tasker, R. Inigo. Eden, Captain Anthony MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Templeton, W. P. Edmondson, Major A. J. Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) Elliot, Major Walter E. Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Ellis, R. G. McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus Tinne, J. A. Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) McLean, Major A. Titchfield, Major the Marquess of Everard, W. Lindsay Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Falle, Sir Bertram G. Maitland, A. (Kent. Faversham) Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough Falls, Sir Charles F. Makins, Brigadier-General E. Wallace, Captain D. E. Fanshawe, Captain G. D. Malone, Major P. B. Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull) Fermoy, Lord Margesson, Captain D Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. Fielden, E. B. Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Warrender, Sir Victor Ford, Sir P. J. Mason, Colonel Glyn K. Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) Forestler-Walker, Sir L. Merriman, Sir F. Boyd Watts, Sir Thomas Foster, Sir Harry S. Meyer, Sir Frank Wayland, Sir William A. Fraser, Captain Ian Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) Wells, S. R. Frece, Sir Walter de Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) Gadle, Lieut.-Col. Anthony Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Winby, Colonel L. P. Galbraith, J. F. W. Moore-Brabazon, Lieut-Col. J. T. C. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Ganzoni, Sir John Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Gates, Percy Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph Wolmer, Viscount Gilmour, Lt-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Nelson, Sir Frank Womersley, W. J. Goff, Sir Park Neville, Sir Reginald J. Wood, E.(Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde) Gower, Sir Robert Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Woodcock, Colonel H. C. Grace, John Nicholson, O. (Westminster) Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Grant, Sir J. A. Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert Wragg, Herbert Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Nuttall, Ellis Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. Greene, W. P. Crawford O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Grotrian, H. Brent Penny, Frederick George Captain Viscount Curzon and Captain Bowyer.
NOES. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bliston) Batey, Joseph Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Baker, Walter Briant, Frank Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro) Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Broad, F. A. Ammon, Charles George Barr, J. Bromley, J. Brown, Ernest (Leith) Hirst, G. H. Scurr, John Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Hore-Belisha, Leslie Sexton, James Buchanan, G. Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Cape, Thomas John, William (Rhondda, West) Shiels, Dr. Drummond Charleton, H. C. Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Shinwell, E. Cluse, W. S. Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Sitch, Charles H. Connolly, M. Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Smillie, Robert Cove, W. G. Jones, W. N. (Carmarthen) Smith, Ben (Bermondsey. Rotherhithe) Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Kelly, W. T. Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley) Crawfurd, H. E. Kennedy, T. Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Dalton, Hugh Kenworthy, Lt-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Snell, Harry Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Kirkwood, D. Stamford, T. W. Day, Harry Lansbury, George Stephen, Campbell Dennison, R. Lawson, John James Strauss, E. A. Duncan, C. Lee, F. Sullivan, J. Dunnico, H. Lindley, F. W. Sutton, J. E. Edge, Sir William Longbottom, A. W. Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) England, Colonel A. Lowth, T. Thurtle, Ernest Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) Lunn, William Tinker, John Joseph Fenby, T. D. Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) Tomlinson, R. P. Forrest, W. Mackinder, W. Townend, A. E. Gardner, J. P. Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Varley, Frank B. George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd March, S. Viant, S. P. Gibbins, Joseph Maxton, James Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Gillett, George M. Murnin, H. Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Gosling, Harry Naylor, T. E. Wellock, Wilfred Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Oliver, George Harold Westwood, J. Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Coine) Owen, Major G. Wilkinson, Ellen C. Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Palin, John Henry Williams, David (Swansea, East) Griffith, F. Kingsley. Paling, W. Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Williams, T. (York, Don valley) Groves, T. Ponsonby, Arthur Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) Grundy, T. W. Potts, John S. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Hall, F (York, W. R., Normanton) Rees, Sir Beddoe Windsor, Walter Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Wright, W. Hardie, George D. Riley, Ben Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Harris, Percy A. Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) Hayday, Arthur Salter, Dr. Alfred TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Scrymgeour, E. Mr. Hayes and Mr. Whiteley.
It being after Ten of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER proceeded, pursuant to Standing Order No. 15, to put forthwith the Questions, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolutions reported in respect of Classes I to IX of the Civil Estimates, and of the Navy Estimates, the Army Estimates, the Air Estimates, and the Revenue Departments Estimates.
Civil Estimates and Supplementary Estimate, 1928
Class I
Question,
"That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolution reported in respect of Class I of the Civil Estimates,"
put, and agreed to.
Class II
Question,
"That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolutions
reported in respect of Class II of the Civil Estimates,"
put, and agreed to.
Class III
Question,
"That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolution reported in respect of Class III of the Civil Estimates,"
put, and agreed to.
Class IV
Question,
"That this House cloth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolutions reported in respect of Class IV of the Civil Estimates,"
put, and agreed to.
Class V
Question put,
"That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolutions reported in respect of Class V of the Civil Estimates."
The House divided: Ayes, 292; Noes, 112.
Division No. 361.] AYES. [10.10 p.m. Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Dawson, Sir Philip Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Dean, Arthur Wellesley Kindersley, Major G. M. Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert King, Commodore Henry Douglas Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Drewe, C Knox, Sir Alfred Allen, Sir J. Sandeman Eden, Captain Anthony Lamb, J. Q. Allen, Lieut.-Col. Sir William James Edge, Sir William Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Edmondson, Major A. J. Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Elliot, Major Walter E. Loder, J. de V. Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Ellis, R. G. Long, Major Eric Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. England, Colonel A. Lougher, Lewis Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere Astor, Viscountess Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Atholl, Duchess of Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) Lumley, L. R. Atkinson, C. Everard, W. Lindsay Lynn, Sir R. J. Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Falle, Sir Bertram G. MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Balfour, George (Hampstead) Falls, Sir Charles F. Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) Balniel, Lord Fanshawe, Captain G. D. Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Barnett, Major Sir Richard Fenby, T. D. Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Fermoy, Lord McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus Bellairs, Commander Carlyon Flelden, E. B. McLean, Major A. Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Ford, Sir P. J. Macmillan, Captain H. Bennett, A. J. Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- Forrest, W. Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) Bethel, A. Foster, Sir Harry S. Makins, Brigadier-General E. Betterton, Henry B. Fraser, Captain Ian Malone, Major P. B. Bevan, S. J. Frece, Sir Walter de Margesson, Captain D. Birchall, Major J. Dearman Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony Mason, Colonel Glyn K. Bird, Sir R B. (Wolverhampton, W.) Galbraith, J. F. W. Merriman, Sir F. Boyd Blundell, F. N. Ganzonl, Sir John Meyer, Sir Frank Boothby, R. J. G Gates, Percy Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Braithwaite, Major A. N. Goff, Sir Park Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Brass, Captain W. Gower, Sir Robert Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Grace, John Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Briscoe, Richard George Grant, Sir J. A. Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Brittain, Sir Harry Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph Brocklebank, C. E. R. Greene. W. P. Crawford Nelson, Sir Frank Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Neville, Sir Reginald J. Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Griffith. F. Kingsley Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) Grotrian, H. Brent. Nicholson, O. (Westminster) Brown, Ernest (Leith) Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N.) Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert Brown, Brig -Gen. H. C.(Berks, Newb'y) Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Nuttall, Ellis Buckingham, Sir H. Gunston, Captain D. W. O'Connor, T. J (Bedford, Luton) Burman, J. B. Hacking, Douglas H. O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh Burton, Colonel H. W. Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Owen, Major G. Butler, Sir Geoffrey Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Penny, Frederick George Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Caine, Gordon Hall Harris, Percy A. Perkins, Colonel E. K. Campbell, E. T. Harrison, G. J. C. Philipson, Mabel Carver, Major W. H. Hartington, Marquess of Pilcher, G. Cassels, J. D. Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) Pilditch, Sir Philip Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.) Haslam, Henry C. Pownall, Sir Assheton Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. Preston, William Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.) Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd. Henley) Price, Major C. W. M. Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian Pringle, J. A. Chapman, Sir S. Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Radford, E. A. Charteris, Brigadier-General J. Henn, Sir Sydney H Raine, Sir Walter Clarry, Reginald George Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. Ramsden, E. Cobb, Sir Cyril Hills, Major John Waller Rawson, Sir Cooper Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Hilton, Cecil Rees, Sir Beddoe Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S J. G. Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington) Cohen, Major J. Brunel Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Rentoul, G. S. Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) Hopkins, J. W. W. Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Colman, N. C. D. Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) Cooper. A. Duff Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs, Stretford) Cope, Major Sir William Hore-Belisha, Leslie Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Couper, J. B. Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. Ropner, Major L. Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington. N.) Hume, Sir G. H. Rye, F. G. Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) Hurd, Percy A. Salmon, Major I. Crawfurd, H. E. Hurst, Gerald B. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Sandeman, N. Stewart Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Iliffe, Sir Edward M. Sanderson, Sir Frank Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Sandon, Lord Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Cunliffe, Sir Herbert James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Savery, S. S. Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Jephcott, A. R. Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Jones, W. N. (Carmarthen) Shepperson, E. W. Slaney, Major P. Kenyon Tasker, R. Inigo. Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) Templeton, W. P. Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Smith-Carington, Neville W. Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Smithers, Waldron Tinne, J. A. Wolmer, Viscount Southby, Commander A. R. J. Titchfield, Major the Marquess of Womersley, W. J. Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Tomlinson, R. P. Wood, E. (Chester, Stalyb'ge & Hyde) Sprot, Sir Alexander Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Woodcock, Colonel H. C. Stanley. Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) Wallace, Captain D. E. Wragg, Herbert Steel, Major Samuel Strang Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull) Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. Strauss, E. A. Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich) Streatfeild, Captain S. R. Warrender, Sir Victor Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Styles, Captain H. Walter Watts, Sir Thomas Captain Viscount Curzon and Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Wayland, Sir William A. Captain Bowyer. Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Wells, S. R.
NOES. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Hardie, George D. Scurr, John Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Heyday, Arthur Sexton, James Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Ammon, Charles George Hirst, G. H. Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bliston) Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Shiels, Dr. Drummond Baker, Walter John, William (Rhondda, West) Shinwell, E. Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Johnston, Thomas (Dunnee) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Barr, J. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Sitch, Charles H. Batey, Joseph Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Smillie, Robert Briant, Frank Kelly, W. T. Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Broad, F. A. Kennedy, T. Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley) Bromley, J. Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Kirkwood, D. Snell, Harry Buchanan, G. Lansbury, George Stamford, T. W. Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel Lawson, John James Stephen, Campbell Cape, Thomas Lee, F. Sullivan, J. Charleton, H. C. Lindley, F. W. Sutton, J. E. Close, W. S. Longbottom, A. W. Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Connolly, M. Lowth, T. Thurtle, Ernest Cove, W. G. Lunn, William Tinker, John Joseph Dalton, Hugh Mackinder, W. Townend, A. E. Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Maclean, Neil (Glasgow. Govan) Varley, Frank B. Day, Harry March, S. Viant, S. P. Dennison, R. Maxton, James Watson, W. M. (Dunfermilne) Duncan, C. Montague, Frederick Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Dunnico, H. Murnin, H. Wellock, Wilfred Gardner, J. P. Naylor, T. E. Westwood, J. Gibbins, Joseph Oliver, George Harold Wilkinson, Ellen C. Gillett, George M. Palin, John Henry Williams, David (Swansea, East) Gosling, Harry Paling, W. Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly) Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Ponsonby, Arthur Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Potts, John S. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Richardson, R. (Haughton-le-Spring) Windsor, Walter Groves, T. Riley, Ben Wright, W. Grundy, T. W. Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Salter, Dr. Alfred Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvi1) Scrymgeour, E. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Mr. Hayes and Mr. Whiteley.
Class Vi
Question put,
"That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolutions
reported in respect of Class VI of the Civil Estimates."
The House divided: Ayes, 270 Noes, 129.
Division No. 362.] AYES. [10.20 p.m. Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Balfour, George (Hampstead) Blundell, F. N. Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Balniel, Lord Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Barnett, Major Sir Richard Bowyer, Captain G. E. W Allen, Sir J. Sandeman Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Braithwaite, Major A. N. Allen, Lieut.-Col. Sir William James Bellairs, Commander Carlyon Brass, Captain W. Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Bennett, A. J. Briscoe, Richard George Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- Brocklebank, C. E. R. Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. Bethel, A. Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Astor, Maj. Hn. John J.(Kent, Dover) Betterton, Henry B. Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Astor, Viscountess Bevan, S. J. Brown, Col. D. C, (N'th'I'd., Hexham) Athol), Duchess of Birchall, Major J. Dearman Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C.(Berks, Newb'y) Atkinson, C. Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) Buckingham, Sir H. Burman, J. B. Hartington, Marquess of Pilcher, G. Burton, Colonel H. W. Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) Pilditch, Sir Philip Butler, Sir Geoffrey Haslam, Henry C. Pownall, Sir Assheton Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. Preston, William Caine, Gordon Hall Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd, Henley) Price, Major C. W. M. Campbell, E. T. Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian Pringle, J. A. Carver, Major W. H. Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. Radford, E. A. Cassels, J. D. Henn, Sir Sydney H. Raine, Sir Walter Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt, R. (Prtsmth, S.) Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. Ramsden, E. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Hills, Major John Waller Rawson, Sir Cooper Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.) Hilton, Cecil Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington) Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. C. Rentoul, G. S. Chapman, Sir S. Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. Charteris, Brigadier-General J. Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Clarry, Reginald George Hopkins, J. W. W. Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) Cobb, Sir Cyril Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. Ropner, Major L. Cohen, Major J. Brunel Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Colman, N. C. D. Hume, Sir G. H. Rye, F. G. Cooper, A. Duff Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer Salmon, Major I Cope, Major Sir William Hurd, Percy A. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Couper, J. B. Hurst, Gerald B. Sandeman, N. Stewart Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. Iliffe, Sir Edward M. Sanderson, Sir Frank Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islingtn. N.) Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Sandon, Lord Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Savery, S. S. Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Jephcott, A. R. Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) Kindersley, Major G. M. Shepperson, E. W. Cunliffe, Sir Herbert King, Commodore Henry Douglas Slaney, Major P. Kenyon Curzon, Captain Viscount Knox, Sir Alfred Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) Davidson, Major-General Sir John H. Lamb, J. Q. Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil) Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Smith-Carington, Neville W. Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey Smithers, Waldron Dawson, Sir Philip Loder, J. de V. Southby, Commander A. R. J. Dean, Arthur Wellesley Long, Major Eric Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert Lougher, Lewis Sprot, Sir Alexander Drewe, C. Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. Eden, Captain Anthony Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Stanley, Hon. O. F. G.(Westm'eland) Edmondson, Major A. J. Lumley, L. R. Steel, Major Samuel Strang Elliot, Major Walter E. Lynn, Sir R. J. Streatfelld, Captain S. R. Ellis, R. G. MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Styles, Captain H. W. Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Everard, W. Lindsay McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Falle, Sir Bertram G. McLean, Major A. Tasker, R. Inigo. Falls, Sir Charles F. Macmillan, Captain H. Templeton, W. P. Fanshawe, Captain G. D. Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) Fermoy, Lord Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Fielden, E. B. Makins, Brigadier-General E. Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- Ford, Sir P. J. Malone, Major P. B. Tinne, J. A. Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Margesson, Captain D. Titchfield, Major the Marquess of Foster, Sir Harry S. Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Fraser, Captain Ian Mason, Colonel Glyn K. Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough Frece, Sir Walter de Merriman, Sir F. Boyd Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) Fremantle, Lieut.-Colone Francis E. Meyer, Sir Frank Warner Brigadier-General W. W. Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) Galbraith, J. F. W. Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Watts, Sir Thomas Ganzonl, Sir John Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Wayland, Sir William A. Gates, Percy Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Wells, S. R. Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) Gower, Sir Robert Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) Grace, John Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Grant, Sir J. A. Nelson, Sir Frank Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Neville, Sir Reginald J. Wolmer, Viscount Greene, W. P. Crawford Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Womersley, W. J. Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Nicholson, O. (Westminster) Wood, E.(Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde Grotrian, H. Brent Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert Woodcock, Colonel H. C. Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Nuttall, Ellis Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Gunston, Captain D. W. O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) Wragg, Herbert Hacking, Douglas H. O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Penny, Frederick George Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich) Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Perkins, Colonel E. K. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Harrison, G. J. C. Philipson, Mabel Captain Wallace and Sir Victor Warrender.
NOES. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Ammon, Charles George Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Barr, J. Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Baker, Walter Batey, Joseph Briant, Frank Hayes, John Henry Scurr, John Broad, F. A. Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Sexton, James Bromley, J. Hirst, G. H. Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Brown, Ernest (Leith) Hore-Belisha, Leslie Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Shiels, Dr. Drummond Buchanan. G. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Shinwell, E. Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel John, William (Rhondda, West) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Cape, Thomas Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Sitch, Charles H. Charleton, H. C. Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Smillie, Robert Cluse, W. S. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley) Connolly, M. Jones, W. N. (Carmarthen) Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Cove, W. G. Kelly, W. T. Snell, Harry Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Kennedy, T. Stamford, T. W. Crawford, H. E. Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Stephen, Campbell Dalton, Hugh Kirkwood, D. Strauss, E. A. Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Lansbury, George Sullivan, J. Day, Harry Lawson, John James Sutton, J. E. Dennison, R. Lee, F. Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Duncan, C. Lindley, F. W. Thurtle, Ernest Donnico, H. Longbottom, A. W. Tinker, John Joseph Edge, Sir William Lowth, T. Tomlinson, R. P. England, Colonel A. Lunn, William Townend, A. E. Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) Mackinder, W. Varley, Frank B. Fenby, T. D. Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Viant, S. P. Gardner, J. P. March, S. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Gibbins, Joseph Maxton, James Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Gillett, George M. Montague, Frederick Wellock, Wilfred Gosling, Harry Murnin, H. Westwood, J. Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Naylor, T. E. Wilkinson, Ellen C. Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Oliver, George Harold Williams, David (Swansea, East) Grenfell, D. R. (Giamorgan) Owen Major G. Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly) Griffith, F. Kingsley Palin, John Henry Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) Groves, T. Ponsonby, Arthur Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Grundy, T. W. Potts, John S. Windsor, Walter Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Wright, W. Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Riley, Ben Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Hardie, George D. Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) Harris, Percy A. Salter, Dr. Alfred TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Heyday, Arthur Scrymgeour, E. Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Paling.
Class VII
Question,
"That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolution reported in respect of Class VII of the Civil Estimates,"
put, and agreed to.
Class VIII
Question,
"That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolution reported in respect of Class VIII of the Civil Estimates,"
put, and agreed to.
Class IX
Question,
"That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolution reported in respect of Class IX of the Civil Estimates,"
put, and agreed to.
Navy Estimates, 1928
Question put,
"That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolution reported in respect of the Navy Estimates."
The House divided: Ayes, 283; Noes, 123.
Division No. 363.] AYES. [10.31 p.m. Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Barnett, Major Sir Richard Brass, Captain W. Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Bellaire, Commander Carlyon Briscoe, Richard George Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Brittain, Sir Harry Allen, Sir J. Sandeman Bennett, A. J. Brocklebank, C. E. R. Allen, Lieut.-Col. Sir William James Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M S. Bethel, A. Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Betterton, Henry B. Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Bevan, S. J. Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. Birchall, Major J. Dearman Buckingham, Sir H. Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) Burman, J. B. Astor, Viscountess Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) Burton, Colonel H. W. Atholl, Duchess of Blundell, F. N. Butler, Sir Geoffrey Atkinson, C. Boothby, R. J. G. Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Caine, Gordon Hall Balfour, George (Hampstead) Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. Campbell, E. T. Balniel, Lord Braithwaite, Major A. N. Carver, Major W. H. Cassels, J. D Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. Pownall, Sir Assheton Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R.(Prtsmth, S.) Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Preston, William Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Henderson, Lieut, Col. Sir Vivian Price, Major C. W. M. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.) Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Pringle, J. A. Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Henn, Sir Sydney H. Radford, E. A. Chapman, Sir S. Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. Raine, Sir Walter Charteris, Brigadier-General J. Hills, Major John Waller Ramsden, E. Clarry, Reginald George Hilton, Cecil Rawson, Sir Cooper Cobb, Sir Cyril Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Rees, Sir Beddoe Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington) Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Rentoul, G. S. Cohen, Major J. Brunel Hopkins, J. W. W. Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Colman, N. C. D. Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) Cooper, A. Duff Hore-Belisha, Leslie Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) Cope, Major Sir William Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Couper, J. B. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Ropner, Major L. Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islingtn, N.) Hume, Sir G. H. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer Rye, F. G. Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Hurd, Percy A. Salmon, Major I. Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Hurst, Gerald B Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Sandeman, N. Stewart Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) Iliffe, Sir Edward M. Sanderson, Sir Frank Cunliffe, Sir Herbert Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Sandon, Lord Curzon, Captain Viscount Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Savery, S. S. Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Jephcott, A. R. Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Jones, W. N. (Carmarthen) Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Dawson, Sir Philip Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) Shepperson, E. W. Dean, Arthur Wellesley Kindersley, Major Guy M. Slaney, Major P. Kenyon Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert King, Commodore Henry Douglas Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield. Hallam) Drewe, C. Knox, Sir Alfred Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Eden, Captain Anthony Lamb, J. Q. Smith-Carington, Neville W. Edge, Sir William Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Smithers, Waldron Edmondson, Major A. J. Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey Southby, Commander A. R. J. Elliot, Major Walter E. Loder, J. de V. Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Ellis, R. G. Long, Major Eric Sprot, Sir Alexander England, Colonel A. Laugher, Lewis Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Westom-s.-M.) Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Steel, Major Samuel Strang Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) Lumley, L. R. Strauss, E. A. Everard, W. Lindsay Lynn, Sir R. J. Streatfeild, Captain S. R. Falle, Sir Bertram G. MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Falls, Sir Charles F. Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) Styles, Captain H. W. Fanshawe, Captain G. D. Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Fermoy, Lord Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Fielden, E. B. McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus Tasker, R. Inigo. Ford, Sir P. J. McLean, Major A. Templeton, W. P. Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Macmillan, Captain H. Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) Forrest, W. Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Foster, Sir Harry S. Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell Fraser, Captain Ian Makins, Brigadier-General E. Tinne, J. A. Frece, Sir Walter de Malone, Major P. B. Titchfield, Major the Marquess of Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Margesson, Captain D. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough Galbraith, J. F. W. Mason, Colonel Glyn K. Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) Ganzoni, Sir John Merriman, Sir F. Boyd Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. Gates, Percy Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Watts, Sir Thomas Goff, Sir Park Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Wayland, Sir William A. Gower, Sir Robert Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Wells, S. R. Grace, John Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) Grant, Sir J. A. Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Greene, W. P. Crawford Nelson, Sir Frank Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Neville, Sir Reginald J. Wormer, Viscount Grotrian, H. Brent Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Womersley, W. J. Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Brlstol, N.) Nicholson, O. (Westminster) Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde) Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert Woodcock, Colonel H. C. Gunston, Captain D. W. Nuttall, Ellis Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Hacking, Douglas H. O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) Wragg, Herbert Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Penny, Frederick George Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich) Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Harrison, G. J. C. Perkins, Colonel E. K. TELLERS FOR THE AYES— Hartington, Marquess of Philipson, Mabel Captain Wallace and Sir Victor Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) Pilcher, G. Warrender. Haslam, Henry C. Pilditch, Sir Philip
NOES. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Ammon, Charles George Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bliston) Barr, J. Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Baker, Walter Batey, Joseph Briant, Frank Hirst, G. H. Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Broad, F. A. Jenkins, W. (Giamorgan, Neath) Shiels, Dr. Drummond Bromley, J. John, William (Rhondda, West) Shinwell, E. Brown, Ernest (Leith) Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Sitch, Charles H. Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Smillie, Robert Cape, Thomas Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Charleton, H. C. Kelly, W. T. Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) Cluse, W. S. Kennedy, T. Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Snell, Harry Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) Kirkwood, D. Stamford, T. W. Connolly, M. Lansbury, George Stephen, Campbell Cove, W. G. Lawson, John James Sullivan, J. Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Lee, F. Sutton, J. E. Crawfurd, H. E. Lindley, F. W. Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Dalton, Hugh Longbottom, A. W. Thurtle, Ernest Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Lowth, T. Tinker, John Joseph Day, Harry Lunn, William Tomlinson, R. P. Dennison, R. Mackinder, W. Townend, A. E. Duncan, C. Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Varley, Frank B. Dunnico, H. March, S. Viant, S. P. Fenby, T. D. Maxton, James Watson, W. M. (Dunfermilne) Gardner, J. P. Montague, Frederick Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Gibbins, Joseph Murnin, H. Wellock, Wilfred Gillett, George M. Naylor, T. E. Westwood, J. Gosling, Harry Oliver, George Harold Whiteley, W. Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Owen, Major G. Wilkinson, Ellen C. Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Palin, John Henry Williams, David (Swansea, E.) Grenfell, D. R. (Giamorgan) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Griffith, F. Kingsley Ponsonby, Arthur Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Potts, John S. Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) Groves, T. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Grundy, T. W. Riley, Ben Windsor, Walter Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W. Bromwich) Wright, W. Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Salter, Dr. Alfred Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Hardie, George D. Scrymgeour, E. Harris, Percy A. Scurr, John TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Hayday, Arthur Sexton, James Mr. Hayes and Mr. Paling. Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Army Estimates, 1928
Question put,
"That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolution
reported in respect of the Army Estimates (including Ordnance Factories Estimate)."
The House divided: Ayes, 281; Noes, 121.
Division No. 364.] AYES. [10.42 p.m. Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Brass, Captain W. Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Briscoe, Richard George Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Brittain, Sir Harry Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Allen, Sir J. Sandeman Brocklebank, C. E. R. Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) Allen, Lieut.-Col. Sir William James Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Cunliffe, Sir Herbert Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Curzon, Captain Viscount Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. Buckingham, Sir H. Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) Burman, J. B. Dawson, Sir Philip Astor, Viscountess Burton, Colonel H. W. Dean, Arthur Wellesley Atholl, Duchess of Butler, Sir Geoffrey Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert Atkinson, C. Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Drewe, C. Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Caine, Gordon Hall Eden, Captain Anthony Balfour, George (Hampstead) Campbell, E. T. Edge, Sir William Balniel, Lord Carver, Major W. H. Edmondson, Major A. J. Barnett, Major Sir Richard Cassels, J. D. Elliot, Major Waiter E. Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.) Ellis, R. G. Bellairs, Commander Carlyon Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) England, Colonel A. Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Erskine, Lord (Somerset Weston-s.-M) Bennett, A. J. Chapman, Sir S. Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- Charteris, Brigadier-General J. Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) Bethel, A. Clarry, Reginald George Everard, W. Lindsay Betterton, Henry B. Cobb, Sir Cyril Falle, Sir Bertram G. Bevan, S. J. Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Falls, Sir Charles F. Birchall, Major J. Dearman Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George Fanshawe, Captain G. D. Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R.. Skipton) Cohen, Major J. Brunel Fermoy, Lord Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Fielden, E. B. Blundell, F. N. Colman, N. C. D. Ford, Sir P. J. Boothby, R. J. G. Cooper, A. Duff Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Couper, J. B. Forrest, W. Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. Foster, Sir Harry S. Braithwaite, Major A. N. Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.) Fraser, Captain Ian Frece, Sir Walter de Long, Major Eric Rye, F. G. Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Lougher, Lewis Salmon, Major I. Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Galbraith, J. F. W. Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Sandeman, N. Stewart Ganzonl, Sir John Lumley, L. R. Sanderson, Sir Frank Gates, Percy Lynn, Sir R. J. Sandon, Lord Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Goff, Sir Park Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) Savery, S. S. Gower, Sir Robert Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie Grace, John Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Grant, Sir J. A. McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus Shepperson, E. W. Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. McLean, Major A. Slaney, Major P. Kenyon Greene, W. P. Crawford Macmillan, Captain H. Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Grotrian, H. Brent Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) Smith-Carington, Neville W. Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N.) Makins, Brigadier-General E Smithers, Waldron Guinness, Rt. Hon. Waiter E. Malone, Major P. B. Southby, Commander A. R. J. Gunston, Captain D. W. Margesson, Captain D. Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Hacking, Douglas H. Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Sprot, Sir Alexander Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Mason, Colonel Glyn K. Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Merriman, Sir F. Boyd Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) Steel, Major Samuel Strang Harrison, G. J. C. Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Strauss, E. A. Hartington, Marquess of Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Streatfeild, Captain S. R. Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Haslam, Henry C. Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Styles, Captain H. W. Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian Nelson, Sir Frank Tasker, R. Inigo. Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Neville, Sir Reginald J. Templeton, W. P. Henn, Sir Sydney H. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) Hills, Major John Waller Nicholson, O (Westminster) Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Hilton, Cecil Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Nuttall, Ellis Tinne, J. A. Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) Titchfield, Major the Marquess of Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Hopkins, J. W. W. Penny, Frederick George Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Wallace, Captain D. E. Hore-Belisha, Leslie Perkins, Colonel E. K. Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. Philipson, Mabel Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Pilcher, G. Warrender, Sir Victor Hudson, R. S. (Cumb'l'nd, Whiteh'n) Pilditch, Sir Philip Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) Hume, Sir G. H. Pownall, Sir Assheton Watts, Sir Thomas Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer Preston, William Wayland, Sir William A. Hurd, Percy A. Price, Major C. W. M. Wells, S. R. Hurst, Gerald B. Pringle, J. A. Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Radford, E. A. Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) Iliffe, Sir Edward M. Raine, Sir Walter Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Ramsden, E. Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Rawson, Sir Cooper Wolmer, Viscount James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Rees, Sir Beddoe Womersley, W. J. Jephcott, A. R. Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington) Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde) Jones, W. N. (Carmarthen) Rentoul, G. S. Woodcock, Colonel H. C. Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Kindersley, Major G. M. Richardson Sir P. W.(Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Wragg, Herbert King, Commodore Henry Douglas Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. Knox, Sir Alfred Robinson, Sir T. (Lanc., Stretford) Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich) Lamb, J. Q. Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Ropner, Major L. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. Major Sir George Hennessy and Loder, J. de V. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Major Sir William Cope.
NOES. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Connolly, M. Groves, T. Alexander. A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Cove, W. G. Grundy, T. W. Ammon, Charles George Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Crawfurd, H. E. Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Baker, Walter Dalton, Hugh Hardie, George D. Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Harris, Percy A. Barr, J. Day, Harry Hayday, Arthur Batey, Joseph Dennison, R. Hirst, G. H. Briant, Frank Duncan, C. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Broad, F. A. Dunnico, H. John, William (Rhondda, West) Bromley, J. Fenby, T. D. Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Brown, Ernest (Leith) Gardner, J. P. Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Gibbins, Joseph Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Buchanan, G. Gillett, George M. Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel Gosling, Harry Kelly, W. T. Cape, Thomas Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Kennedy, T. Charleton, H. C. Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Cluse, W. S. Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Kirkwood, D. Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Griffith, F. Kingsley Lansbury, George Lawson, John James Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) Tinker, John Joseph Lee, F. Salter, Dr. Alfred Tomlinson, R. P. Lindley, F. W. Scrymgeour, E. Townend, A. E. Longbottom, A. W. Scurr, John Varley, Frank B. Lowth, T. Sexton, James Viant, S. P. Lunn, William Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Mackinder, W. Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Maclean, Nell (Glasgow. Govan) Shiels, Dr. Drummond Wellock, Wilfred Maxton, James Shinwell, E. Westwood, J. Montague, Frederick Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Whiteley, W. Murnin, H. Sitch, Charles H. Wilkinson, Ellen C. Naylor, T. E. Smillie, Robert Williams, David (Swansea, East) Oliver, George Harold Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly) Owen, Major G. Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Palin, John Henry Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) Paling, W. Stamford, T. W. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Stephen, Campbell Windsor, Walter Ponsonby, Arthur Sullivan, J. Wright, W. Potts, John S. Sutton, J. E. Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Riley, Ben Thurtle, Ernest TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Mr. Hayes and Mr. T. Henderson.
Air Estimates, 1928
Question put,
"That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolution
reported in respect of the Air Force Estimates."
The House divided: Ayes, 285; Noes, 115.
Division No. 365.] AYES. [10.52 p.m. Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.) Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Galbraith, J. F. W. Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Ganzoni, Sir John. Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Chapman, Sir S. Gates, Percy Allen, Sir J. Sandeman Charteris, Brigadier-General J. Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Allen, Lieut.-Col. Sir William James Clarry, Reginald George Glyn, Major R. G. C. Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Cobb, Sir Cyril Goff, Sir Park Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Gower, Sir Robert Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George Grace, John Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. Cohen, Major J. Brunel Grant, Sir J. A. Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Astor, Viscountess Colman, N. C. D. Greene, W. P. Crawford Atholl, Duchess of Cooper, A. Duff Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Atkinson, C. Cowper, J. B. Griffith, F. Kingsley Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. Grotrian, H. Brent Balfour, George (Hampstead) Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.) Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N.) Balniel, Lord Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Barnett, Major Sir Richard Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Gunston, Captain D. W. Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Hacking, Douglas H. Bellairs, Commander Carlyon Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Bann, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro) Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Bennett, A. J. Cunliffe, Sir Herbert Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- Curzon, Captain Viscount Harrison, G. J. C Bethel, A. Davidson, Major-General Sir John H. Hartington, Marquess of Betterton, Henry B. Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) Bevan, S. J. Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Haslam, Henry C. Birchall, Major J. Dearman Dawson, Sir Philip Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. Bird, E. R. (Yorks. W. R., Skipton) Dean, Arthur Wellesley Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian Blundell, F. N. Drewe, C. Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Boothby, R. J. G. Eden, Captain Anthony Henn, Sir Sydney H. Bourne, Captain Robert Croft. Edge, Sir William Hills, Major John Walter Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Edmondson, Major A. J. Hilton, Cecil Braithwaite, Major A. N. Elliot, Major Walter E. Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Brass, Captain W. Ellis, R. G. Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive England, Colonel A. Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Briscoe, Richard George Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) Hopkins, J. W. W. Brittain, Sir Harry Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Brocklebank, C. E. R. Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) Hore-Belisha, Leslie Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Everard, W. Lindsay Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Falle, Sir Bertram G. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.) Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd, Hexham) Falls, Sir Charles F. Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Fanshawe, Captain G. D. Hume, Sir G. H. Buckingham, Sir H. Fermoy, Lord Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer Burman, J. B. Fielden, E. B. Hurd, Percy A. Burton, Colonel H. W. Ford, Sir P. J. Hurst, Gerald B. Butler, Sir Geoffrey Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Forrest, W. Iliffe, Sir Edward M. Caine, Gordon Hall Foster, Sir Harry S. Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Campbell, E. T. Fraser, Captain Ian Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Carver, Major W. H. Frece, Sir Walter de James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Cassels, J. D. Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Jephcott, A. R. Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Jones, W. N. (Carmarthen) O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh Sprot, Sir Alexander Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) Owen, Major G. Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. Kindersley, Major Guy M. Penny, Frederick George Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) King, Commodore Henry Douglas Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Steel, Major Samuel Strang Knox, Sir Alfred Perkins, Colonel E. K. Strauss, E. A. Lamb, J. Q. Philipson, Mabel Streatfeild, Captain S. R. Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Pilcher, G. Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey Pilditch, Sir Philip Styles, Captain H. W. Loder, J. de V. Pownall, Sir Assheton Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Long, Major Eric Preston, William Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Lougher, Lewis Price, Major C. W. M. Tasker, R. Inigo. Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere Pringle, J. A. Templeton, W. P. Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Radford, E. A. Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) Lumley, L. R. Raine, Sir Walter Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Lynn, Sir R. J. Ramsden, E. Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Rawson, Sir Cooper Tinne, J. A. Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) Rees, Sir Beddoe Titchfield, Majar the Marquess of Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington) Tomlinson, R. P. Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) Rentoul, G. S. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough McLean, Major A. Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Wallace, Captain D. E. Macmillan, Captain H. Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull) Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) Ropner, Major L. Warrender, Sir Victor Makins, Brigadier-General E. Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) Malone, Major P. B. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Watts, Sir Thomas Margesson, Captain D. Rye, F. G. Wayland, Sir William A. Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Salmon, Major I. Wells, S. R. Mason, Colonel Glyn K. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) Merriman, Sir F. Boyd Sandeman, N. Stewart Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) Sanderson, Sir Frank Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Sandon, Lord Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D Wolmer, Viscount Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Savery, S. S. Womersley, W. J. Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde) Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Woodcock, Colonel H. C. Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph Shepperson, E. W. Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Nelson, Sir Frank Slaney, Major P. Kenyon Wragg, Herbert Neville, Sir Reginald J. Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich) Nicholson, O. (Westminster) Smith-Carington, Neville W. Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert Smithers, Waldron TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Nuttall, Ellis Southby, Commander A. R. J. Major Sir George Hennessy and Major Sir William Cope.
NOES. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Greenwood, A.(Nelson and Colne) Paling, W. Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Grenfell, D. R. (Giamorgan) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Ponsonby, Arthur Ammon, Charles George Groves, T. Potts, John S. Baker, J.(Wolverhampton, Bliston) Grundy, T. W. Richardson, R.(Houghton-le-Spring) Baker, Walter Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Riley, Ben Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) Barr, J. Hardie, George D. Salter, Dr. Alfred Batey, Joseph Harris, Percy A. Scrymgeour, E. Briant, Frank Hayday, Arthur Scurr, John Broad, F. A. Hayes, John Henry Sexton, James Bromley, J. Hirst, G. H. Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Brown, Ernest (Leith) Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Shiels, Dr. Drummond Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) John, William (Rhondda, West) Shinwell, E. Buchanan, G. Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Sitch, Charles H. Cape, Thomas Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Smillie, Robert Charleton, H. C. Kelly, W. T. Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Cluse, W. S. Kennedy, T. Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley) Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock Kirkwood, D. Stamford, T. W. Connolly, M. Lansbury, George Stephen, Campbell Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Lawson, John James Sullivan, Joseph Crawfurd, H. E. Lee, F. Sutton, J. E. Dalton, Hugh Lindley, F. W. Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Longbottom, A. W. Thurtle, Ernest Day, Harry Lowth, T. Tinker, John Joseph Dennison, R. Lunn, William Townend, A. E. Duncan, C. Mackinder, W. Varley, Frank B. Dunnico, H. Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Viant, S. P. Fenby, T. D. Maxton, James Watson, W. M. (Dunfermilne) Gardner, J. P. Montague, Frederick Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Gibbins, Joseph Murnin, H. Wellock, Wilfred Gillett, George M. Naylor, T. E. Westwood, J. Gosling, Harry Oliver, George Harold Wilkinson, Ellen C. Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Palin, John Henry Williams, David (Swansea, East) Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly) Wilson. R. J. (Jarrow) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Windsor, Walter Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) Wright, W. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Mr. Whiteley and Mr. T. Henderson.
Revenue Departments Estimates, 1928
Question,
"That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolution reported in respect of the Revenue Departments Estimates,"
put, and agreed to.
Ways and Means [31st July]
Resolution reported,
"That, towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March 1929, the sum of £243,542,902 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."
Resolution agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in upon the said Resolution by the Chairman of Ways and Means, Mr. Churchill, and Mr. A. M. Samuel.
Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill
"to apply a sum out of the Consolidated Fund to the service of the year ending on the thirty-first day of March, one thousand nine hundred and twenty-nine, and to appropriate the Supplies granted in this Session of Parliament," presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time to-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 198.]
Electricity (Supply) Acts
Resolved,
"That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1926, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the urban district of New Mills, in the county of Derby, which was presented on the 11th day of July 1928, be approved."
Resolved,
"That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1926, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the urban district of Brightlingsea, in, the county of Essex, which was presented on the 11th day of July 1923, be approved."
Resolved,
"That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1926, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the compulsory acquisition of lands for a generating station in the parish of Little Barford, in the rural district of Eaton Socon, in the County of Bedford, which was presented on the 11th day of July 1928, be approved, subject to the following modification and addition, namely:—
Page 2, line 41, leave out "five," and insert "three."
Page 5, after Clause 9, insert the following Clause:—
( For protection of C. E. A. Alington. )
10. For the protection of Charles Edmund Argentine Alington, of the parish of Little Barford, in the County of Bedford, or other the owner for the time being of the Manor House, in the said parish (which persons are in this Section included in the expression "the owner"), the following provisions shall, unless otherwise agreed in writing between the undertakers and the owner, apply and have effect, that is to say:—
(1) In this Section "the signed plan" means the plan dated the twenty-seventh day of July, one thousand nine hundred and twenty-eight, signed in duplicate by George Herbert Sismey, on behalf of the owner, and by Evelyn Boys, on behalf of the undertakers.
(2) The undertakers shall within six calendar months of the commencement of this Order serve upon the owner notice to treat in respect of such of the lands delineated and coloured pink on the deposited plan as do not comprise the lands coloured yellow and blue on the signed plan.
(3) The provisions of Sections 127 to 132, inclusive, of the Lands Clauses Consolidation Act, 1845, shall apply to the said lands, and as if for the purpose of the said Section 127 the prescribed period were five years from the commencement of this Order.
(4) The said lands when acquired by the undertakers shall not be used for any purpose other than the construction, maintenance, and use of a generating station, and all such buildings, engines, batteries dynamos, accumulators, pipes, and other plant, machinery, apparatus, works, and conveniences or any of them as may be necessary or suitable for generating or transforming electricity, and no dwelling-houses shall be erected thereon for the accommodation of employés of the undertakers other than a station engineer and a caretaker, or a watchman of the undertakers or their contractors.
(5) Notwithstanding anything in this Order contained or shown on the deposited plan the undertakers shall not enter upon, take, or use any part of till lands coloured yellow on the signed plan.
(6) The undertakers shall not, under the powers of this Order, enter upon, take, or use any part of the lands coloured blue on the signed plan, but the undertakers may acquire compulsorily and the owner if required by the undertakers shall sell to the undertakers an easement or right of using such lands or any of them for the purposes of laying, maintaining, renewing, repairing, and inspecting underground aqueducts, conduits, cables, mains, apparatus, and other underground works, whether the surface of the lands be temporarily broken or not. For the purposes of this Sub-section the provisions of the Lands Clauses Acts with respect to lands, so far as the same are applicable in this behalf, shall extend and apply to any such easement or right as if the same were lands within the meaning of those Acts.
(7) As regards any lands in respect of which the undertakers have acquired easements only under the provisions of the last preceding Sub-section of this Section, the undertakers shall not be required or entitled to fence off or sever such lands from the adjoining lands, but the owner and his tenants shall, subject to such easements, have the same rights to use and cultivate the said lands at all times as if this Order had not been made.
(8) Any works executed by the undertakers in or through the lands coloured blue on the signed plan shall be made and maintained wholly underground and in such manner that no part of the same or their earth covering shall project above the existing surface of the ground.
(9) When the undertakers shall commence the execution of any works in or through the lands coloured blue on the signed plan they shall proceed with such execution with all practicable despatch, and shall complete the same and restore the surface of the ground within the shortest practicable period.
(10) In filling in any trench or excavation dug by the undertakers upon the lands coloured blue on the signed plan the undertakers shall use only the excavated material and shall repace the same in layers so that the condition of the sub-soil shall be as nearly as practicable the same as before the trench or excavation was dug.
(11) The undertakers shall, so far as may be necessary to avoid the exercise within the parish of Little Barford by any local authority of any statutory powers for the purpose of providing dwelling houses for employees of the undertakers, themselves provide outside such parish dwelling houses for such employees.
(12) Any difference which may from time to time arise between the owner and the undertakers with respect to any question under this Section other than a question of disputed compensation shall be referred to and settled by an arbitrator to be agreed upon between the parties or, failing agreement, appointed by the president of the Institution of Civil Engineers on the appli- cation of either party after notice to the other, and subject thereto the provisions of the Arbitration Act, 1899, shall apply to any such reference."—[ Colonel Ashley. ]
Theatrical Employers Registration (Amendment) Bill [Lords]
Read a Second time.
Resolved, "That this House will immediately resolve itself into the Committee on the Bill."—[ Sir Walter de Frece. ]
Bill accordingly considered in Committee; and reported, without Amendment; read the Third time, and passed, without Amendment.
Rating and Valuation (Apportionment) Bill
Motion made, and Question, "That the Lords Amendments be considered forthwith," put, and agreed to.—[ Mr. Chamberlain. ]
Lords Amendments considered accordingly.
CLAUSE 3.—(Definition of Industrial Hereditaments.)
Lords Amendment:
In page 4, line 30, after the word "minerals" insert "gotten."
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."—[ Mr. Chamberlain. ]
May we have a word of explanation of this Amendment?
This Amendment has been inserted for the purpose of making clear the intention of the Clause.
Question put, and agreed to.
CLAUSE 5.—(Definition of freighttransport hereditaments.)
Lords Amendment:
In page 8, leave out from the word "vessel" in line 33 to end of line 35, and insert
"includes any ship or boat or any other description of vessel used in navigation."
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."—[ Mr. Chamberlain. ]
What is the object of accepting this apparently useless Amendment?
These words have been inserted to satisfy some fears which were expressed by the railway companies.
Question put, and agreed to.
CLAUSE 6.—(Entries in valuation list as to freight-transport hereditaments.)
Lords Amendment:
In page 9, leave out lines 20 and 21.
I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
This Amendment must be taken with the one which follows. It has been represented that the words:
Question put, and agreed to.
Remaining Lords Amendments agreed to.
Racecourse Betting Bill
Motion made, and Question put, "That the Lords Amendments be considered forthwith."—[ Sir V. Henderson. ]
The House proceeded to a Division.
Major Sir William Cope and the Marquess of Titchfield were appointed Tellers for the Ayes, but there being no Members willing to act as Tellers for the Noes, Mr. SPEAKER declared that the Ayes had it.
Lords Amendments considered accordingly.
CLAUSE 1.—(Betting Act, 1853, not to apply to racecourses.)
Lords Amendment:
In page 1, line 8, after the word "which," insert "horse races but no other."
I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
This Amendment and two Amendments which follow—in page 1, line 18, after the word "races," insert the words, "but no other races"; and in page 2, line 13, leave out the word "exclusively"—were put down in order to carry out a promise that we made to provide that an approved racecourse may be used for other purposes, such as a sports meeting.
Question put, and agreed to.
Lords Amendment:
In page 1, line 17, after the word "Act," insert
"and for the purpose of effecting betting transactions on horse races only."
I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
This Amendment also is inserted in accordance with a promise which we gave to ensure that the totalisator shall only be used for the purpose of horseracing, and not for football matches.
Question put, and agreed to.
CLAUSE 2.—(Establishment of Authority.)
Lords Amendment:
In page 3, line 15, at the end, insert:
"(10) No act or proceeding of the Board shall be questioned on account of any vacancy in their number or on account of the appointment of any member having been defective."
I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
This is a common form of Amendment which should have been inserted in this House. It occurs in all laws setting up statutory authorities, such as the Port of London Authority, and it is put in to avoid vexatious proceedings, and to enable the Board to carry on while there is a vacancy in their number.
Question put, and agreed to.
CLAUSE 3.—(Powers and Duties of Board.)
Lords Amendment:
In page 3, line 37, at the end insert:
"(3) Shall distribute or cause to be distributed the whole of the moneys staked by means of a totalisator on any race among the persons winning bets made by means of the totalisator on that race, after deducting or causing to be deducted such percentage of those moneys as the Board may from time to time determine either generally or with respect to any particular racecourse."
I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
This and the next Amendment—in line 39, leave out from the word "paid" to the word "and" in line 41, and insert "the percentage deducted as aforesaid of moneys staked by means of the totalisator"—are inserted in accordance with a promise given to the right hon. Member for Spen Valley (Sir John Simon), who raised this point on the Report stage. It makes it clear that the people who stake their money will get something back if they win.
I really think we must have some further explanation on this point. Apparently, if this point had not been raised by the right hon. Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) the whole Bill could have been successfully fought in the Courts. Is it really the case that after sitting I do not know how many weeks in Committee and late at night in the House, the great experts in charge of the Bill, with all the resources of the Jockey Club and the National Hunt Committee and their lawyers, and all the rest of it, did not realise that these words are required even to regularise this unfortunate contraption? It is very extraordinary that this House which prides itself on its skill in detecting errors in draftsmanship, should allow the Bill to go to another place, and but for the vigilance of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon), who has done great disservice to the cause of national morality in drawing the Government's attention to this, the whole thing would have been farcical. If the right hon. Gentleman has some better defence, we ought to know what it is.
The hon. and gallant Gentleman is not quite accurate. I did not say the Bill would have been farcical. All that I was trying to point out, perhaps not successfully, was that there was some doubt about the point, and it makes the Bill watertight.
I would remind the hon. and gallant Gentleman that this is not the first time Parliament has got wisdom from the Liberal party.
Question put, and agreed to.
Lords Amendment:
In page 4, leave out from the word "money" in line 3 to the end of line 4 and insert
"for the purpose of setting up or operating totalisators in accordance with the provisions of this Act."
I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
This is in accordance with the promise made to make it clear that money may only be used for the purpose of setting up totalisators and not for other purposes.
We are passing this very important alteration which, I think, is of consequence, and yet we do not know what the deduction will be for the Treasury. We have handed over all our rights and bargaining power, and now the unfortunate Chancellor of the Exchequer has to make the best bargain he can with those noble people who control the Jockey Club. This House has not even the knowledge as to the deductions from this money and yet we are parting with our last democratic control over this vast scheme for rationalising gambling.
The hon. and gallant Gentleman has overlooked the fact that the point that he is raising should have been on the last Amendment and not on this one.
Question put, and agreed to.
Remaining Lords Amendments agreed to.
Criminal Law (Amendment) Bill
Motion made, and Question, "That the Lords Amendments be considered forthwith," put, and agreed to.—[ Mr. Hurd. ]
Lords Amendments considered accordingly.
CLAUSE 2.—(Short title, construction and repeal.)
Lords Amendment:
In page 1, line 17, at the end, insert:
"(2) This Act shall come into operation on the first day of January, 1929."
I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
This merely relates to the date of bringing the Measure into operation.
Question put, and agreed to.
Remaining Lords Amendments agreed to.
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
Adjournment
Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[ Commander Eyres Monsell. ]
Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-two Minutes after Eleven o'Clock.