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Commons Chamber

Volume 229: debated on Monday 8 July 1929

House of Commons

Monday, July 8, 1929

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

Private Business

Barmouth Urban District Council Bill,

Clyde Navigation Bill,

Grand Junction Company Bill,

Hendon Urban District Council Bill,

Read the Third time, and passed.

Colonial Stock Act, 1900

Copy ordered, "of Treasury List of Colonial Stocks in respect of which the provisions of the Act are for the time being complied with."— [Mr. Pethick-Lawrence.]

Continental and India and Eastern Mails

Copy ordered, "of Contract, dated the seventh day of May, 1929, between the Postmaster-General and the Southern Railway Company, for the conveyance between England and France of outward Continental mails and both outward and inward India and Eastern mails, together with a Copy of Treasury Minute thereon, dated the eighth day of May, 1929."— [Mr. Pethick-Lawrence.]

Oral Answers to Questions

India

Statutory Commission (Report)

asked the Secretary of State for India when he expects to receive the Report of the Statutory Commission?

I cannot give an exact date, and I am sure the House will appreciate my anxiety to avoid any appearance of putting pressure upon the Commission in the execution of their most important and difficult task. But I do not anticipate the Report before the end of the year.

Is it intended that the Commission shall revisit India before presenting their Report?

Murders, Bibizai

asked the Secretary of State for India whether he has received a Report of the murders of Lieutenant M. Stephen, of the 17th Nowshera Mountain Battery of the Royal Artillery, stationed at Manzai, and First-class Assistant Surgeon J. E. H. Cabral, who were shot dead near Bibizai, on the Waziristan circular road, while motoring to Razmak; can he state whether the assailants of these officers have been captured; and will he give the House full particulars?

The reports which I have received indicate that the assailant was a Mahsud Khassadar who felt himself aggrieved regarding promotion. Two relatives, suspected of having been accessories, have been arrested. The man himself and two other suspected accomplices are reported to have taken refuge in certain Wazir villages, and their surrender has not yet been reported.

Detenus

asked the Secretary of State for India the number of persons at present detained by the Government in India without trial, under Regulation 111 of 1818 and the Bengal Ordinance; and the names of these persons and the circumstances of their arrest?

asked the Secretary of State for India how many persons are still in detention or have had their movements restricted under the Bengal Ordinance?

asked the Secretary of State for India if he will consider recommending to the Government of India that it should dispense with the use of the Bengal Criminal Ordinance Act and Regulation 111 of 1818, under which laws imprisonment without trial takes place?

There is at present no person under detention, or restricted as to his movements, under the Bengal Criminal Law Amendment Act, 1925. Under Regulation 111 of 1818, there are 31 persons detained or under restriction. These are, first, 12 Kachins who have been detained since November, 1927, for complicity in the attack in March, 1927, en the " Triangle expedition " for the release of slaves in unadministered territory on the boarders of Burma, in the course of which attack a British and an Indian officer and a Kachin policeman lost their lives; secondly, 25 Afghan refugees, who, without being in actual confinement, are detained in the interests of the peace of the Indian border and of Afghanistan; and, thirdly, four persons from Indian States, namely the ex-Maharajah of Panna, who is no longer under restraint but is ordinarily restricted in his movements to the Madras Presidency, the ex-Maharajah of Nabha, who has been restricted as to his movements since February, 1928, the ex-Maharajah of Bharatpur (detained since 1903 for the murder of one of his servants) and a Manipuri who was implicated in the Kuki rebellion, and has been detained since 1918. It will be seen that in the majority of these cases action could not have been taken under the ordinary Indian Criminal Law. In answer to my hon. Friend, the Member for Shoreditch (Mr. Thurtle) I can only say that I am not able in the meantime to suggest alternative or better methods of enabling the Governments in India to meet cases of the character for which these special measures were designed.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is very strong feeling in the House that we ought to go back to the old Radical tradition of no imprisonment without trial?

I am aware of that, and I share it, but I must call the hon. Member's attention to the fact that in all these cases the requirements of justice can only be met—Indian law running only in certain territory—in the manner in which it has been met by the use of this regulation.

Can the right hon. Gentleman specify how long he intends to keep these people in prison without trial?

If the hon. Member will consider the instances I have named, I think he will see that there is excellent reason for the action taken. I have gone into every single one of these cases with the greatest care and detail. As to the period of detention, I think probably in the case of the Afghans there will be a limit set.

Will the right hon. Gentleman explain the difference between being detained by the police and actual confinement?

It really refers to the limits within which the person has freedom of movement.

asked the Secretary of State for India what action the Government of India proposes to take in the case of the three Sikhs at present held in detention under Regulation 111 of 1818, in view of the statement made in the House on 15th April last that these men would be released as soon as it could be done without danger to public safety?

Two of the Sikhs in question were released early in May, and the third on 4th June.

Labour (Indian States)

asked the Secretary of State for India, if his attention has been drawn to the statement of one of the employers' representatives nominated by the Government of India to the recent International Labour Conference at Geneva that, unless labour legislation similar to that enacted in British India is introduced in the Indian States the Indian employers could not consider any further labour legislation being introduced in British India; and if, in view of this statement, the programme of the Royal Commission on Labour in India will be drawn so as to include an investigation of the conditions of labour in the Indian states?

I have seen the statement referred to. The terms of reference to the Royal Commission have been published and cover British India only. It would not be possible, having regard to the constitutional position, to extend these terms of reference so as to include the Indian States as labour legislation in the States is a matter of internal administration and is not controlled by the Paramount Power. As explained in a reply given to-day to a non-oral question asked by my hon. and gallant Friend, the Government of India while unable to undertake any obligation to make effective in the Indian States the provisions of a draft Convention adopted at an International Labour Conference ratified on behalf of British India will bring such a Convention to the notice of those States to which its provisions appear to be relevant and will also be prepared, where necessary, to use their good offices with the authorities of such States to induce them to apply, so far as possible, the provisions of the Convention within their territories.

Are we to understand that the terms of reference, considering the stage to which the Royal Commission has gone, will not be extended?

I am informed that there are constitutional difficulties which prevent the terms of reference of the Whitley Commission, to which the hon. Member refers, being extended to the Indian States.

The right hon. Gentleman has referred to the good offices which the Government are prepared to take. Will he be very careful in any action taken by the Government to see that he in no way infringes the treaty rights of the Indian Princes?

Yes, certainly, the Government will bear that in mind, and they will also bear in mind the question of extending as far as possible the beneficent operations of this convention.

Medical Research Committee (Report)

asked the Secretary of State for India why the Report of the Committee on the Organisation of Medical Research in India has not been published; whether he is aware that the All-India Medical Congress has urged its publication; whether any protests have been received against the proposed location of the Central Medical Research Institute at Dehra Dun; and if the Legislative Assembly will be consulted before any decision is taken?

I am informed that this Report was published about five weeks ago. Some protests were made against the location of the Central Medical Institute at Dehra Dun; but the expenses for the scheme as proposed were approved on January 29th by the Standing Finance Committee of the Legislative Assembly.

Postal EmployéEs

asked the Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that postal employés in India receive a pension of only six rupees a month after 30 years' service, and that they cannot get any privilege leave unless they find substitutes for themselves before obtaining leave; and if, taking into consideration the arduous duties of the postal employé in India, the Government will consider the possibility of improving these conditions?

It is not the practice of the Secretary of State for India to intervene in such matters, which are regulated by the Government of India. I will, however, forward a copy of this question and of my reply for the information of that Government.

Political Department (Recruitment)

asked the Secretary of State for India whether, pending the discussion of the larger issues, he is considering whether any steps can be taken to carry out certain of the recommendations of the Butler Committee for the future recruitment for and conditions of service in the political department of the Government of India?

At the present stage, and pending further consideration of the Report as a whole in consultation with the Government of India, I am unable to make any statement as to the order or manner in which particular recommendations will be dealt with.

As this is a very large administrative matter, is the right hon. Gentleman considering taking the action recommended, or similar action later, as soon as the communication has been received from the Government?

Yes. I would remind my hon. and gallant Friend that the whole of the committee's report is being carefully considered including the part to which my hon. and gallant Friend draws attention.

Extremist Movement

HALL asked the Secretary of State for India whether he will arrange for a White Paper to be circulated to the House giving any information in the possession of the India Office as to the assistance given by the Soviet Government to the extremist movement in India?

Is there not a proposal from the Indian Government to renew diplomatic relations with Russia? If that is to be done, does not the right hon. Gentleman think it advisable that the whole of the information should be placed before the House?

I have no doubt that if my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary thinks so, he will inform the House.

What objection can there be to this House having the whole of the information?

The hon. and gallant Member must leave it in the hands of the Department to decide how and when it is desirable to publish any information.

Is the attitude of the Socialist Government to be to withhold information which is necessary and relevant to certain matters?

That seems to cover rather a wider field than the Question on the Order Paper. When I said "the Department," of course, I meant myself— L'Etat c'est moi.

Can the right hon. Gentleman give us any information as to the particular assistance given to some of these extremists?

Portuguese West Africa (British Seaman's Arrest)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he can now make a statement with regard to the case of Mr. A. J. Brewer; and whether a reply has been received from the Portuguese Government to the representations made by His Majesty's Consul at Lisbon?

To my regret I am as yet unable to make a statement on this case. Further representations were made to the Portuguese Government as recently as 20th June, and I am awaiting their reply.

Can the right hon. Gentleman inform me when he will be ready to answer a question on this matter?

I am afraid it is impossible for me to say when I am dealing with another Government whose reply I am awaiting.

Dead Sea Salts (Concessions)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has had any further communications with the French Government with regard to the Dead Sea concession; and whether the whole question is being referred to the High Court of International Justice at The Hague?

Yes, Sir. In answer to the Note sent to the French Ambassador, as foreshadowed in my predecessor's reply to the hon. and gallant Member on 13th March last, a communication was recently received from his Excellency inquiring on behalf of his Government whether His Majesty's Government would be prepared to submit he question at issue to the Permanent Court of International Justice. The reply to be made to this communication is now under consideration by His Majesty's Government, and, pending the completion of the correspondence, I am unable to make any further statement on the subject.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether it is a fact that M. Novomesky has been served with an injunction which prevents him working this concession until the matter has been decided by the International Court of Justice?

Is it not the fact that if the ratification of this concession had not been held up the work would have been in progress a long time ago, to everyone's satisfaction?

United States (Tariffs)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether representations have been made to the United States Government that tariff increases must add to the difficulties of paying the British debt to America?

I have been asked to reply. The answer is in the negative.

Will the hon. Member supplement a question which I put the other day, that unless America receives our goods we cannot pay our debts?

I cannot add anything to the reply, but His Majesty's Government in America are watching the position very carefully.

But even if His Majesty's Government in America are watching the position in America, do they expect any alteration in the intentions of the United States in the matter?

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been drawn to the proposed increase in the United States tariff; and what will be the effect on our exports to the United States?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. It is impossible to gauge the effect of the Tariff Bill on our export trade, especially as it is not yet known in what shape it will finally become law.

Will it not be very detrimental to trade; and could not the hon. Gentleman take some steps, in combination with other European countries, to furnish a united protest against this new tariff?

I do not think I can say anything further on this matter. The whole situation is being carefully watched.

Will the hon. Gentleman inquire in the City of Norwich, as to what the effect of this tariff will be upon the shoe industry in Norwich?

In reference to these questions, may I ask if hon. Gentlemen opposite are not in favour of tariffs?

League of Nations (Miners' Hours)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what course is now intended to be pursued by the League of Nations with respect to the question of the hours of employment of coal miners; and what action His Majesty's Government are taking in the matter?

I have been asked to reply. The Mines Committee of the Governing Body of the International Labour Office have already presented one report dealing with the hours of miners, and are continuing their work. In addition to this, the Economic Committee of the League are considering the economic position in the coal (mining industry throughout Europe. The Government are in close touch with this matter and I may point out that the British representative is chairman of the Mines Committee referred to.

I can add nothing to the reply I have given which deals with the whole question. This Committee will deal particularly with the question of hours.

May I ask whether the hon. Member will give us some time before a decision is made on this rather vital matter?

Arms Traffic Convention

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his Majesty's Government have under consideration the immediate ratification of the Arms Traffic Convention for the control of the traffic in arms, which was signed by His Majesty's representative at Geneva on 17th June, 1925?

This is among the questions which His Majesty's Government have under consideration.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether it will be considered at an early date and some decision taken on the matter?

Yes. I propose to communicate with other Governments which have not yet signed the Convention, in the hope that we may be able to make progress in the matter.

Trade and Commerce

Overseas Trade Commissioners

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the methods adopted for the selection of suitable officers as trade commissioners 'and commercial secretaries in the Dominions and Colonies and in foreign countries; and if the recognised trade organisations are being consulted?

I have been asked to reply. Commercial diplomatic officers and trade commissioners were originally appointed by the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs and the President of the Board of Trade respectively, on the recommendation of special committees consisting of representatives of Government Departments and recognised trade organisations. Vacancies which have since occurred have been filled from within those services or from the Consular Service, or from the headquarters staff of the Department of Overseas Trade. Where vacancies cannot thus be filled, the method is to advertise them in the Press and to refer any applications for consideration to a small committee composed as stated above.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the number of commercial secretaries and trade commissioners His Majesty's Government propose to appoint in accordance with the policy announced by the Lord Privy Seal; the Embassies and Legations to which those officers are to be attached; and if any special instructions are being issued in relation to their duties?

I have been asked to reply. It is proposed to appoint immediately two trade commissioners, one of whom will re-open the post at Singapore, which was closed in 1922, while the other will be attached to assist the senior trade commissioner at Sydney, who will thus be able to travel more freely in his area. These officers will be furnished with the general instructions issued to all trade commissioners. The question of the appointment of new commercial secretaries will be examined as a whole when His Majesty's Government have had an opportunity of considering the Report of the Economic Mission, under Lord d'Abernon's chairmanship, which is proceeding to South America on 2nd August.

Will the hon. Member take into account the desirability of consulting British associations, chambers of commerce, and similar organisations before making these appointments?

Cotton Industry

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can give the House any information concerning the inquiry which is to be undertaken into the cotton industry?

My right hon. Friend is not yet in a position to make a statement on this matter, but hopes to be able to do so at an early date.

When this matter is being considered, will it be borne in mind that it is highly desirable that the terms of reference should be such that there will be a report within a limited and reasonable period?

I think that consideration will be borne in mind. There is, I think, a desire to have a report as early as possible.

Before he definitely decides on an inquiry, will the hon. Gentleman seek the opinion of the Manchester cotton trade, and ascertain whether they do not entertain the strongest objection to any sort of inquiry or Government interference?

Lace Industry (Employment)

asked the Minister of Labour the number of insured persons at work in the lace industry at the end of May, 1929, and at the end of June, 1925, respectively; and whether there has been a satisfactory increase in the number working full time?

The estimated numbers of insured persons aged 16 to 64, classified as belonging to the lace industry in Great Britain, less the numbers unemployed were 15,200 at the end of June, 1925, and 15,713 at the end of May, 1929. These figures include persons not at work owing to sickness, etc. Separate figures showing the numbers working full time are not available.

Tyre Factories (Employment)

asked the Minister of Labour if she can furnish an estimate of the number of persons employed in the tyre factories recently established by foreign firms in this country?

Precise figures on this point are not available, but I understand that approximately 5,000 workpeople are at present employed at the tyre factories to which I understand the hon. and gallant Member refers.

Linen Industry

asked the Prime Minister whether in view of the fact that the linen or flax industry is in a more depressed condition than the cotton industry, he will include this trade in the inquiry indicated in the King's Speech?

I have been asked to reply. It is the Government's intention that the inquiry into the cotton industry shall be as expeditious as possible. In these circumstances, it would not be possible to extend its scope to other industries.

Does the hon. Gentleman not know how very serious is the position of the linen trade, especially in Scotland, and as this industry is so closely associated with the cotton industry, cannot he include it in the inquiry which is contemplated?

Cotton Growing

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether in connection with his proposal for increasing cotton growing, he will take into consideration the fact that the absence of stabilised prices is already tending to discourage the natives from continuing cotton planting and, further, that there is a quantity of Empire cotton in this country still unsold?

I am not aware that unsold stocks of Empire cotton are unduly large having regard to stocks of cotton generally, or that Empire cotton growers are being discouraged. I am satisfied that a further increase in the production of cotton in the Empire is desirable, and all relevant facts will be taken into consideration in connection with any proposals for increasing production.

Will the Bill which is in contemplation to deal with the Colonial Development Grant include the proposals to which the right hon. Gentleman referred in his speech for aeroplane surveys of certain districts, and should we have an opportunity of discussing this cotton question in connection with that Bill?

There will be an opportunity to 'discuss all questions appertaining to Colonial development in connection with this Bill. I may say that the Bill is drawn in the widest possible form to give that opportunity.

Agriculture

Wheat (Impoetation)

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he will consider the desirability of introducing legislation for wheat to be imported only as wheat and of recommending the imposition of an export duty on all wheat offals exported?

After considering the available information and the various factors affecting the position, I am satisfied that it is undesirable to take action on the lines suggested by the hon. Member. In any case the prohibition of imports and exports is contrary to the policy of the Government and to the International Convention for the Abolition of Prohibitions and Restrictions on Imports and Exports, which has been adhered to by this country.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that imports of flour represent only 15 per cent, of the imported wheat? In view of the importance to the farming community of abundant supplies of wheat offal, can he not see his way to reconsider the matter?

Bureau of

Location.

Director.

Deputy Director or Chief Officer in direct charge of Bureau.

Animal Nutrition

Rowett Research Institute, Bucksburn, Aberdeen, Scotland.

Dr. J. B. Orr, D.S.O., M.C.,M.D., D.Sc.

Yet to be appointed.

Animal Genetics

Animal Breeding Research Department, Edinburgh University, Scotland.

Professor F. E. Crew, M.D., D.Sc, Ph.D.

Mr. Eldon Moore.

Fruit Production

East Mailing Research Station, East Mailing, Kent, England.

Mr. R. G. Hatton, M.A.

Mr. D. Akenhead, M.A., B.Sc.

I am aware that the supplies of offal are much larger than before the War. The increase is from 1,600,000 tons to 2,000,000 tons.

Does the right hon. Gentleman say that the prohibition of imports is contrary to the policy of His Majesty's Government in all cases?

May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman is speaking for the Cabinet in declaring that the policy adopted by the party opposite has been abandoned?

Imperial Bureaux

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs how many of the eight new Imperial bureaux, dealing with the collection and dissemination of scientific information affecting agriculture, have now been established; and what are the names and addresses of the directors of those bureaux constituted to date?

Six of the eight bureaux have now been established; it is hoped that the other two will be set up in the course of the summer. I will, with the permission of the House, circulate with the OFFICIAL REPORT a list of the six bureaux already in operation, with their addresses, and the names of the directors and deputy directors.

Following is the list:

Bureau of

Location.

Director.

Deputy Director or Chief Officer in direct charge of Bureau.

Soil Science

Rothamsted Experimental Station, Harpenden Herts., England.

Sir John Russell, O.B.E., D.Sc, F.R.S.

Dr. A. P. Joseph, D.Sc, F.I.C.

Plant Genetics (Herbage Plants).

Welsh Plant Breeding Station, Aberystwyth, Wales.

Professor R. G. Stapledon, M.A.

Captain R. N. Williams (temporary).

Agricultural Parasitology

Institute of Agricultural Parasitology, St. Albans, England.

Professor R. T. Leiper, M.D., D.Sc., F.R.S.

Dr. B. G. M.Sc. Ph.D.

Veterinarians (Training Facilities)

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he has yet received the Report of the Committee appointed to consider the existing facilities for training veterinarians in London; whether this Report will be published as a Parliamentary Paper; and, if so, when?

No, Sir; but I understand that the Committee has reached the stage of, considering a draft Report. When the Report is received it will be printed and published, and copies will be available for the use of Members.

Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the last part of the question; when it is likely to be published?

Farm Credits

asked the Minister of Agriculture if he will give the latest available figures to indicate the use that is being made of the farm credits scheme for both long and short term loans?

The following loans have been granted by the directors of the Corporation, subject to the examination of title and satisfactory completion of the formalities: — been registered at the Land Registry up to the 6th July, 1929.

Can the right hon. Gentleman state what he and his colleagues have in view, seeing that references were made in the Election to an extension of the farm credit scheme?

Can the right hon. Gentleman state how many applications have been made under the two sections?

I can give the applications under Part I. Up to the close of business on July 6th for loans on mortgage there were 1,362 applications for a total of £4,965,000. Applications for improvement loans numbered 59, for a total of £53,000.

Fishermen's Chaets (Royalty Charges)

asked the Minister of Agriculture if he has received any representations from deep-sea fishermen or others protesting against Admiralty royalty charges on fishermen's charts; and, if so, what action he proposes to take?

A pamphlet and poster on this subject have reached me without any covering letter or any evidence of the source from which they came. I have, however, received no representations on the subject from deep sea or other fishermen, and the second part of the question does not, therefore, arise.

May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman will consult his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland on this matter?

Fighting Services (British Meat)

asked the Minister of Agriculture if he can explain more fully the reasons which have led the Government to abandon the project of purchasing British meat for the Forces for a portion of the year?

As I said in my answer on Thursday last, the Government rejected this proposal on the grounds of its probable effect on prices to the public. Moreover it was considered that any benefits which might accrue to agriculture would not be commensurate with the expense involved—an opinion which was consistently held by the late Government up to the eve of the election.

I beg to give notice that, in view of the difficulty of dealing with this matter by question and answer, I shall seek permission to raise it on the Adjournment for the Summer Recess.

Crown Lands (Statistics)

asked the Minister of Agriculture if he can state the total acreage under the control of the Com missioners of Crown Lands and the total yearly revenue received there from; and what proportions of these totals cover lands within the authority of the Ports mouth City Council?

Exclusive of copyholds held of the Crown and foreshores, in respect of which no figures are available, the total surface area under the control of the Commissioners of Crown Lands extends to about 226,000 acres. The total gross collection during the year to 31st March, 1929, in respect of all properties under the control of the Commissioners was £1,678,342. The greater part of the property under the control of the Commissioners within the authority of the Portsmouth City Council is foreshore, other land being only about 1½ acres, and the total gross collection for the year ended 31st March, 1929, in respect of all the property was £300 10s. 3d.

Will the right hon. Gentleman see that the annual report of these Commissioners is made available for the use of Members of the House?

House of Commons (Members' Gallery Exit)

asked the First Com missioner of Works whether any regulations exist for the exit of visitors to the House of Commons occupying the Members' Gallery in case of fire; whether he is aware that, in the case of such emergency, there is only one narrow exit; and will he consider the provision of additional exits?

The Serjeant-at-Arms is satisfied that, although only one exit at present exists, the staff of attendants on duty during the sittings of the House is fully adequate to deal with the exit of visitors from the Members' Gallery in an emergency. As an additional measure of precaution, however, the possibility of forming further exits is being considered.

Piccadilly Circus (Shaftesbury Memorial)

asked the First Commissioner of Works whether it is in tended to replace the Shaftesbury Memorial on its original site in Piccadilly Circus; and, if so, will the flower girls be granted permission to sell their wares 'as heretofore?

I must refer the hon. Member to the London County Council for information on this subject. My Department is not in charge of the memorial.

Distinguished Visitors (Official Dinners)

asked the First Commissioner of Works whether, in the case of official dinners offered to dis- tinguished visitors at the expense of the taxpayers, efforts are made to ensure so far as possible the provision of British or Empire food; and, if not, whether he proposes to make 'arrangements accordingly in future?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, and the second part does not, therefore, arise.

Northern Rhodesia (Natives)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Governor of Northern Rhodesia has been asked to submit proposals for the removal of the capital of that territory from Livingstone; whether, in view of the new mining developments in the copper field in that country, any special arrangements are contemplated in regard to the recruitment, supervision, health, and education of natives employed in connection with the copper mines; and whether these matters will be under the direct control of the Government or left to the mining companies?

My hon. Friend is at Geneva attending the Permanent Mandates Committee, and I have been asked to answer this question. The reply to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. Education is controlled directly by the Government; recruitment, housing and health are controlled by the Mining Companies under Government regulation and inspection. The Government already has ample powers in connection with these matters, but the Secretary of State is not satisfied with the information which he has received with regard to the health of the miners and he has called on the Governor for further report and recommendations. Special arrangements for education of the natives at these mining centres are under the consideration of the Advisory Committee on Education in the Colonies. I may add that a revised Mining Law is in course of preparation.

Will the Under-Secretary give the information to this House when he receives the report?

Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind the desirability, in this matter of education in mining centres, of approaching the heads of mining firms in this country and not merely leaving it to the local managers out there?

Colonial Service (Veterinary Officers)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies what action is being taken to give effect to the recommendations of Lord Lovat's Committee on the development of veterinary services in the Colonial Empire, and, in particular, whether the scholarship scheme for recruiting and training veterinary officers for Colonial Governments is being proceeded with; and whether at will come into operation this year?

I have been asked to answer this question. A despatch was addressed to Colonial Governments in April last dealing with the recommendations of this Committee and asking for their observations upon them. Replies to this despatch are now being received. In view of the present lack of qualified candidates, the Secretary of State is of opinion that the first step towards the further development of the Colonial Veterinary Services should be the institution of the Scholarship Scheme which the Committee recommended, but he fears that it will not now be possible to bring this scheme into operation this year.

Colonial Office Conference

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Government proposes to hold a second Colonial Office Conference of official representatives of the Colonies, Protectorates, and Mandated Territories; and, if so, when?

I have been asked to answer this question. The matter will receive consideration in due course.

Mechanical Transport Committee

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any interim Report on the work of the Mechanical Transport Committee will shortly be published; and whether it is proposed to summon an early conference to make recommendations as to what contributions shall be made by various Governments in the Empire towards the expenses of this Committee?

I have been asked to answer this question. The first Progress Report of the Committee has just been printed and copies are being sent to the various Dominion and Colonial Governments interested in the Committee's work. It is not proposed to publish this Report but my hon. Friend will be happy to show it to the hon. and gallant Member if he so desires. As regards the second part of the question a meeting of representatives of the Governments interested in the work of the Committee has been arranged to take place during the course of the present month and the question of contributions will be discussed at that meeting.

Cinematograph Films Act

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether any replies have been received from the Dominions in answer to the despatch that was sent to them in January, 1928, enclosing a copy of the regulations of the 22nd December, 1927, made by the Board of Trade under Section 29 of the Cinematograph Films Act, 1927; and can he state which of the Dominions Governments are giving effect to similar conditions and provisions that exist in that Act?

The answer to the first part of my hon. Friend's question is in the negative; the despatch in question which forwarded the documents referred to, did not call for any reply. As regards the second part of the question, legislation on similar lines to the Act of 1927 has been passed in New Zealand and in Victoria. I am not aware that any such legislation has up to the present been passed elsewhere in the Dominions.

Is any of the other Dominions being asked to follow the example of New Zealand in passing the legislation which they promised to do before this Act was passed?

Empire Marketing Board

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether there have been any changes in the constitution of the Empire Marketing Board?

Certain changes in the ex-officio members of the Board were rendered necessary by the recent change of Government. Since the full list of the members of the Board, as reconstituted, is somewhat long, I will, with the permission of the House, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT. I may, however, say that my Noble Friend, the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs, and my hon. Friend, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies, have succeeded their predecessors as Chairman and Vice-Chairman respectively. I may perhaps add that the right hon. Member for the Sparkbrook Division of Birmingham, who was the first Chairman of the Board, has been invited, and has agreed, to become a member. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies, as Vice-Chairman of the Board, will, as a general rule, answer questions in the House relating to the Board's work.

Following is the list:

Members of the Empire Marketing Board, as Reconstituted

The Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs and for the Colonies (The right hon. Lord Passfield) (Chairman).

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. W. Lunn, M.P.) (Vice-Chairman).

The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. F. W. Pethick-Lawrence, M.P.).

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries (the right hon. C. Addison, M.D., M.P.).

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. T. Johnston, M.P.).

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for India (Dr. T. Drummond Shiels, M.C., M.P.).

The right hon. L. S. Amery, M.P.

Sir Archibald Sinclair, Bart.,C.M.G., M.P.

Sir Edward Crowe, C.M.G. (Comptroller-General of the Department of Overseas Trade).

Sir Thomas Allen (United Kingdom).

Sir William Crawford, K.B.E. (United Kingdom).

Mr. W. A. Wilson (Canada).

Mr. F. L. McDougall, C.M.G. (Australia).

Mr. R. S. Forsyth (New Zealand).

Mr. J. Dimond (Union of South Africa).

Mr. J. W. Dulanty, C.B., C.B.E. (Irish Free State).

Sir Francis Newton, K.C.M.G., C.V.O. (Southern Rhodesia).

Mr. H. A. F. Lindsay, C.I.E., C.B.E. (India).

Sir Edward Davson, Bart. (Colonies and Protectorates).

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether the Government propose to continue the annual grant to the Empire Marketing Board instituted by the late Government; whether any extension or modification of the functions and duties of the board is contemplated; and what changes in the personnel of the board and its main committees are being made?

With regard to the first two parts of this question, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the hon. Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander) on 4th July. With regard to the third part, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I have given to the hon. Member for East Bristol (Mr. W. Baker) to-day; the composition of the board's main committees will be settled at the first meeting of the board as reconstituted.

Imperial Forestry Institute

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether the Report and recommendations of the Imperial Forestry Conference, held at Melbourne last year, in regard to the future of the Imperial Forestry Institute at Oxford, have yet been received; and what steps are being taken to give effect to the recommendations?

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to the question asked on 13th March on this subject. The full report of the Conference has not yet been received, but my Noble Friend the Secretary of State is awaiting a communication on the subject which I understand may shortly be expected from the Chairman of the Standing Committee of the Empire Forestry Conference.

Unemployment

Transfer of Workers

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether, in connection with the transfer of labour from distressed districts to others less seriously affected, he proposes to make any Regulations with respect to the housing of these men and to their subsequent employment, if again out of work, on preferential terms as compared with local labour; and, if not, what conditions will be imposed on municipalities or local authorities taking advantage of this type of scheme?

I am considering all these matters in consultation with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour. It is a condition of a grant involving the transfer of labour that the local authority receiving the grant shall satisfy the grant-making authority that accommodation for the men transferred will be available during the performance of the work. There is no responsibility upon the local authority to find employment or housing for the men transferred at the conclusion of the work, but every assistance in both respects is given by the Employment Exchanges.

Benefit Disallowed

asked the Minister of Labour the number of applications for unemployment benefit refused during April, May, and June, 1929, respectively, at the Leith (Quality Street) Employment Exchange, and the principal reasons for such disallowances?

As the reply includes a number of figures, I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate a statement in the OFFICIAL- REPORT.

In view of the importance of these figures nationally, will the hon. Gentleman consider, between now and the issue of his Financial Memorandum, the question of allowing us to have national figures on the same lines as these local figures?

I think that matter does not arise here, and that there should be a separate question upon it.

asked the Minister of Labour whether she proposes to make any alteration to prevent insurance officers refusing to allow unemployment benefit being paid where the Court of Referees have decided in the applicant's favour?

The insurance officer is required to act upon the recommendation of a Court of Referees unless he decides to refer the case to the Umpire. This position is statutory and cannot be altered without legislation.

May I suggest that the point as to whether it should be a separate question or not, is not before us, and is one for Speaker; and might I ask, with all due respect, if the hon. Gentleman will not consider between now and the Debate on the Financial Memorandum the proposal to let us have figures on a national scale. I ask that question and I would like an answer to it. May I ask quite respectfully and with all courtesy if I cannot have an answer to my question?

That will require separate question on the Order Paper.

Following is the statement:

Does the Minister propose to make any alteration to prevent suffering through the non-payment of unemployment benefit?

Any question on a matter of legislation would have to be put on the Paper.

Will the hon. Gentleman not consider at least this, that while a matter is being the subject of inquiry by an insurance officer, or a Court of Referees, or the police, a man ought to get benefit until a definite decision is reached?

As my hon. Friend knows, that is a matter for consideration, and I think, as a matter of fact, he knows that it is not altogether outside of discussion in the future.

Am I to understand from that answer that the Government are considering at least allowing payment until a decision is made?

I have nothing to add to the answer I have given. My hon. Friend ought to put any further question on the Order Paper.

Pre-War Pensioners

asked the Prime Minister whether it is the intention of the Government to abolish the means limit inquiry in connection with pre-War pensioners, and to bring these pensioners up to the post-War scale?

The benefits conferred by the Pensions Increase Act, 1920, were increased by the amending Act passed in 1924 by the first Labour Government. It was stated by the Government at the time that they could not contemplate further legislation on the subject, and repeated declarations to the same effect were made by their successors. The hon. Member will find that the matter was discussed and the attitude of the Government was fully explained in the Debates on the Act of 1924.

Are we to take it that this is an absolutely final refusal to do anything for the pre-War pensioners?

I am afraid that my answer was sufficiently explicit upon that point. The improvement of pre-War pensions, made by the Labour Government in 1924, was at that time said to be final, and no new circumstances have arisen which would justify a revision of that decision.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many of these pre-War pensioners, after a life-time of service for the country, are now in workhouses, and does he consider it satisfactory to leave them there?

I am not aware of that, and, if it be a fact, I should deplore it very much; but these people have met with, I cannot say lavish, but fairly generous consideration, and the hon. Member and the House generally must realise that there are a great many people—large classes of people—in the country who are suffering owing to monetary changes following the War. Might I add, further, that in addition to the increases in the pension made under the Act of 1924, in that same Session I made an Amendment of the Old Age Pensions Act which gave additional pensions under that Act to a fairly large number of these people?

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he has taken the trouble to read the election addresses of many of his supporters?

I am afraid I was, like most Members, far too busily engaged to read the election addresses of other candidates.

Has the right hon. Gentleman had the good fortune to see the answers which many of his colleagues made to questionnaires?

Civil Service (Royal Commission)

asked the Prime Minister whether he proposes to appoint a Royal Commission on the Civil Service, as announced by the late Prime Minister; and, if so, whether the question of the employment of ex-service men in the Civil Service will be embodied in the terms of reference of the Commission?

I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the answer which I gave on Thursday last in reply to a question by the hon. and gallant Member for East Lewisham (Sir A. Pownall).

Safeguarding of Industries

asked the Prime Minister whether he will consider the setting up of a Commission to inquire into the effects of safeguarding upon the industries to which it has already been applied; whether the Government are pre- pared to consider the maintenance and extension of safeguarding in conjunction with 'a judiciously applied Excess Profits Duty which would secure to the Revenue a reasonable share of any extra profit which might accrue to industries as a result of the application of safeguarding; and whether he is prepared to consider the introduction of legislation to prevent the dumping on the British market of goods produced under sweated conditions of labour in Foreign countries?

:I have been asked to reply. The answer to the first two parts of the question is in the negative. As regards the third part, it is the intention of the Government, in the first instance, to approach the question of the importation of sweated goods by way of international discussion and, it is hoped, agreement.

Rhineland (Evacuation)

asked the Prime Minister whether the British troops will leave the Rhineland before the end of September?

asked the Secretary of State for War when the evacuation of the British troops from the Rhineland will take place?

As I indicated in my speech on Friday last, His Majesty's Government are anxious that the evacuation should take place at the earliest moment, but His Majesty's Government would regret if it has to be taken as it were by degrees or stages. Their aim will be to co-operate with the French and the Belgian Governments in effecting a complete and simultaneous evacuation. It will be one of the tasks of the International Conference, which is to meet in the near future, to determine the exact date on which such a complete evacuation of the Rhineland can be simultaneously carried out by the three occupying Powers.

Are we under any sort of pledge or obligation to the French Government in regard to this matter, and is my right hon. Friend aware that the French inspired Press are using our reluctance to act without France as a weapon to enforce such modifications of the Young scheme as may suit the French Exchequer?

I am afraid I cannot anticipate the consideration that will be given to this question by the Conference, which, we hope, will open in the early days of next month.

In the view of His Majesty's Government, is this question bound up with the question of reparations?

Yes, to some extent. Owing to conversations that I referred to in my speech on Friday, in which my right hon. predecessor participated, I think to some extent the question has been bound up, at any rate, with the settlement of the Young Report, which is going to be the subject of the Conference to which I have referred.

May we take it that until the reparations question is settled, there will be no evacuation?

Will the right hon. Gentleman tell the House if we would evacuate without the French and Belgian evacuating in any circumstances or in no circumstances?

Works of Art (Retention in Great Britain)

asked the Prime Minister whether he contemplates introducing any legislation which will prevent the sale or removal from this country of buildings, relies, or works of art which are of national and historic or artistic importance?

This is a (matter which has frequently been considered in recent years. A Committee of the National Gallery Trustees reported on the subject in 1913 (Cd. 7878, 1915) and recommended that such legislation was inadvisable. But, as regards buildings, certain powers of protection and preservation were given to the Commissioners of Works by the Ancient Monuments Consolidation and Amendment Act, 1913; and, as regards objects of national interest generally, the exemptions from Estate, etc., Duty granted by the Finance Acts, as summarised in Section 44 of the Finance Act, 1921, are designed to secure a similar purpose. Successive Governments have also undertaken to provide funds, when necessary, towards the cost of purchasing for the National Gallery certain pictures of primary importance. The Cornaro Titian and the Wilton Diptych were recently purchased with Government help under this arrangement. I do not think that it is practicable or desirable to introduce further legislation on the subject at the present time, but I am keenly interested in this subject and always open to consider suggestions.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the custom in France, where the Government has the right to purchase any article of national value provided it pays the price that the article fetches in the open market?

I cannot commit myself at the moment. As the House knows, I have been so very busy with other things that I have not been able to turn my own attention to this, and the answer I have given has been an answer relating rather to the past. I am keenly interested in the subject, and I will consider anything which is brought to my notice.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the Italian law on the subject?

Trade Unions (Rules and Restrictions)

asked the Prime Minister whether he will appoint a committee to consider the effect of trade union rules and restrictions upon trade and unemployment?

Royal Navy

Singapore Base

asked the Prime Minister if he can yet indicate the policy of His Majesty's Government in regard to the Singapore Naval base?

This matter is now under the consideration of His Majesty's Government, and an announcement will be made as soon as possible.

In considering the matter, will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind the great use that can be made of this dockyard for purely commercial purposes?

Everything germane to the consideration of this subject will be taken into account.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consult the Overseas Dominions before he takes action?

Certainly. As a matter of fact, the preliminaries have already been taken.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say when he is likely to be able to announce a decision?

I should not like to commit myself, but the matter is at present under consideration and is part of a large consideration of the whole subject which is centred round that. The delay will not be prolonged as far as we are concerned.

The work at the moment is going on as it was left by our predecessors.

Will the right hon. Gentleman also consult the Crown Colonies who contributed?

General Messing System

FALLE asked the First Lord of the Admiralty the average cost per head per day to victual naval ratings on the general messing system in shore establishments at Home for the quarter ended 31st March, 1929?

The average cost per head for naval ratings for food in Shore establishments at Home was Is. 4d. a day for the period referred to.

Railway Travelling Facilities

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, in view of the considerable reductions in railway fares by the recent introduction of special forms of ticket, he will ask the railway companies to grant an extension of the cheap railway travelling facilities for naval ratings from a fare and a third to single fare for the double journey?

I may point out that the cheap tickets under the existing concession granted to members of the Forces are not subject to the restrictions as to period, date of commencing journey, specified train, etc., one or more of which usually apply to reduced fare tickets. The railway companies are, however, being asked whether any extension to the present concession can be granted.

Officers (Marriage Allowance)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he will consider authorising the payment of marriage allowance to the wives of naval officers; and if he can make a statement on the subject?

As the hon. and gallant Member is aware, this matter was very carefully considered by the late Government who, after a very exhaustive examination of all the relative circumstances, came to the conclusion that the grant of this allowance would not be justified. I am not aware of any grounds that would justify reopening the question.

Does the hon. Gentleman bear in mind the very strong protests that were made from this side of the House when the Government decided not to give this allowance?

Does the hon. Member agree with the late Government in this decision? I do not.

Since these protests were made a (Committee have gone into the matter and have reported, and on their report this decision is based.

Does the hon. Gentleman bear in mind the last discussion on the Navy Estimates a few months ago, in which he participated?

Chatham Dockyard (Personnel)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty how many men have been discharged from Chatham Naval Dockyard since 21st June, 1929; and whether any and, if so, how many further discharges have been decided upon or are under consideration?

The number of workmen who have left the Dockyard service since 21st June, is 19, but none of these were discharged on reduction. The discharge of 50 men is necessary during the present week. I am unable to make any further statement on this subject at present.

Will the Minister consider the matter of reinstating the men already discharged and of postponing the discharge of the 50 men he has referred to until such time as he has been able to find alternative work for them?

The matter will be fully inquired into. Their discharge is due to the normal fluctuations of work, and not to any special cancellations.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if it is the intention of the Government to stabilise employment at Chatham Naval Dockyard at the strength at which it was on 14th March, 1929; and, generally, what is the policy of the Government regarding the maintenance of employment at Chatham Dockyard?

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which my right hon. Friend the First Lord gave to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Central Portsmouth (Captain Hall) on 4th July. [OFFICIAL REPORT, Column 248].

Post Office

Mail Bag Robberies

asked the Postmaster-General how many mailbag robberies have occurred in the East Yorkshire district in the past year; whether responsibility for the thefts has been traced to anyone; and what has been the financial liability of the Post Office in connection with such affairs?

Two mail bags which would have been conveyed for part of their journey through the East Riding, one from Hull to London and one from Hull to Glasgow, have been stolen during the past year. The persons responsible have not been traced and it cannot be stated at what stage of their journey the bags were stolen. The amount paid in compensation in respect of these losses is £78 10s. 4d.

Yes, there is a Committee sitting at the present moment to consider the protection of registered letters and registered parcels.

Underground Cables

asked the Postmaster-General the mileage and the cost per mile of underground cables already laid in this country and the annual average provision for new work of this nature; and what are the reasons explaining the slow substitution of overhead by underground wires?

The total mileage of underground telephone and telegraph cables in this country is 33,500. The cost per cable mile, which depends on several factors—including the nature of the locality in which the cable is provided and the number and type of wires in the new cable—varies from about £500 to over £3,000. The average annual provision for new underground cable work for the next two or three years is about £4,000,000. In areas where the telephone density is high, subscribers' circuits are provided by means of underground cables throughout; in other areas, poles carry and distribute the wires beyond the point where it is economical to provide underground cables, but cables are substituted for the overhead wires as soon as such a course is justified. The main commercial centres are already connected with the underground system. New underground trunk routes at first supplement the corresponding overhead routes and gradually substitute them as the overhead plant is withdrawn at the end of its useful life. In the aggregate out of a total of 8,000,000 miles of wire, 6,800,000 miles are already underground.

As this work employs a very large number of men, could it not be expedited?

I may say that I have been considering this question and hope to be able to announce a little later that it will to some extent be expedited.

Coal Industry (Idle Mines)

asked the Secretary for Mines what steps he is taking to get restarted the idle coal mines in Great Britain?

The whole economic position of the coalfields is under consideration by the Government, and I am not in a position to make a statement on one part of the problem.

Will the Minister tell us when he will be in a position to make a statement?

Then I want to ask if the Minister will be in a position to make a statement before the House adjourns for the holidays?

It was that the hon. Gentleman had nothing to add to his previous answer.

Colonial Development

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether any special machinery is to be set up to assist the Secretary of State for the Colonies in allocating the annual sum to be devoted to Colonial development; whether the detailed control of any expenditure from this grant will remain with the Treasury; whether the grant will be available for general development or only for transport undertakings; and when the legislation necessary to enable the grant to be used in aid of interest on loans raised under the Colonial Stock Acts and the Palestine and East Africa Guaranteed Loans Act will be introduced?

There will be a full opportunity for the discussion of these matters during the Debate on the Bill which will be introduced this week.

Member Sworn

John Buchan, Esquire, for The University of St. Andrew's, the University of Glasgow, the University of Aberdeen, and the University of Edinburgh.

Bills Presented

Government of India (Aden) Bill,

" to enable the superintendence, direction, or control of the military government of Aden to be transferred to and vested in such person or authority as His Majesty may, by Order in Council, direct; and for purposes consequential on the matters aforesaid," presented by Mr. Wedgwood Benn; supported by Dr. Drummond Shiels and Mr. Montague; to be read a Second time upon Wednesday, and to be printed. [Bill I.]

Isle of Man (Customs) Bill,

" to amend the Law with respect to Customs in the Isle of Man," presented by Mr. Pethick-Lawrence; to be read a Second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 2.]

Orders of the Day

King's Speech

Debate on the Address

[FIFTH DAY.]

Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [2nd July].

" That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, as followeth:

" MOST GRACIOUS SOVEREIGN.

We, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, in Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to Your Majesty for the Gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament."—[Mr. Snell.)

Question again proposed.

I beg to move, at the end of the Question, to add the words:

All who were in the last Parliament will remember that there was, at any rate, one consistent speaker at all times on these Benches, and that was the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I am not sure that on this subject he always carried with him the whole of the Benches behind him. But my right hon. Friend made it as plain as he could, whenever a duty was imposed, that as far as he was concerned every trade must take notice that it would be taken off as soon as possible. I recollect that in his speech when the McKenna Duties were reimposed, I think it was in 1925, my right hon. Friend invited traders to take notice that at the earliest possible moment he would abolish those duties. Is that the position to-day? Is that the position which has been taken up by hon. Members who to-day sit on the benches opposite? Is that the position they took up during the Election? I have not read the whole of the election addresses of hon. Members opposite, but there are those who have engaged in that intellectual exercise, and on consulting them I was assured that a careful analysis shows that a large number of hon. Members opposite in their election addresses—which, after all, are the prospectuses upon which they appeal to their supporters—made no sort or kind of reference either to Safeguarding, the McKenna Duties or to Imperial Preference. [An HON. MEMBER: " It was not worth while."] Surely it is worth while to tell the electors where you stand!! I have always understood that silence was intended to imply consent, and in the London district, about which the Prime Minister was boasting the other day, out of 36 Members on the opposite benches who were returned 33 never mentioned Safeguarding, Imperial Preference or the McKenna Duties in their Addresses. [HON. MEMBERS: " Why should they?"] Because a great many people take a very practical view about Safeguarding. They have noted the very diverse opinions about Safeguarding and Imperial Preference expressed by the Labour party while in Opposition. They have noted, for example, the hon. Member for Nottingham West (Mr. Hayday) twice voting in favour of a Safeguarding duty on lace and still telling his supporters that he would certainly continue to vote in favour of such a duty. Constituents who, without being prejudiced Free Traders or Protectionists, want to have these matters considered on their merits, were very much concerned to find out what were the views of their candidates on this subject.

They knew the hon. Member was a complete heretic, and could be depended upon to vote against his leaders on every possible occasion.

The right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that I would never dream of voting against my leaders unless on a matter of some moment.

I am delighted to hear that the question of what used to be called Free Trade v. Protection is, in the opinion of the hon. Member, a matter of no moment whatever. That is a very interesting admission. Let me take an example of an election address in a constituency where it was of some moment, and where, if anywhere, T should have thought an explicit answer would have been given, and that is Coventry. That is one of the election addresses I have read. Coventry was cited as an example of how the country had voted against the McKenna Duties. I did look at the election address issued by the Socialist Member for Coventry (Mr. Noel Baker) I assumed that there I should find a perfectly plain statement that these duties were to come off at once What did I find?

" The McKenna Duties, by which for nearly 14 years the motor industry has been protected, will be removed, as Mr. Snow-den has said, when practicable."

He said in 1925 " at the first possible opportunity." This is the comment of the hon. Member for Coventry on that.

" This means that they will be removed when the state of the world market and the condition of the motor industry in this country make the conditions favourable for the transition back to the conditions of full Free Trade."

If that is the kind of qualified acceptance of the doctrine of full Free Trade which is given by an hon. Member in a constituency directly affected, I ask whether hon. Members really say that silence on these matters might not be subject to misconstruction?

Yes, they sent him back, and I should like, to know whether anybody who sent him back knows what he is going to do about those duties 2 Then we have the speech made) by the Prime Minister. I venture to say that after that speech not a single industry interested in those duties had the faintest idea whether they are going to be continued, how long they are going to' be continued or what we may expect. That uncertainty is absolutely unnecessary. The Prime Minister, when asked by the Leader of the Opposition what his policy was, said it would be improper for him to anticipate a Budget statement. Surely that argument is very irrelevant. This is not a case of asking the Chancellor of the Exchequer what taxes he is going to put on in his Budget. I can well understand that it might be improper and unwise for a Government to disclose at this stage what new taxes they are likely to impose, but there is no earthly reason, in finance or anything else, why the Government should not to-day state plainly to the country, to the industries of the country and to everybody who is interested in Imperial Preference either here or throughout the Empire, where they stand with regard to the maintenance of Imperial Preference and with regard to the maintenance of these duties, many of which have been put on for periods of years and upon the strength of which development has taken place and employment has been created and upon the maintenance of which new developments and further employment depend.

4.0 p.m.

I am perfectly certain that whatever views people may have about the value of these duties or the value of preference there is a very general concensus of opinion in this House that on a matter which affects the everyday business of a large number of industries it is the plain duty of the Government to declare their policy. Those manufacturers and their workpeople have a right to know where they stand. When that decision is given, whether it be upon Imperial Preference or upon these industrial duties, that decision ought to be taken on one ground and one ground only, and that is whether the maintenance of those duties and of Imperial Preference will help or will not help the trade and industry of this country. It is perfectly certain that there is a very great and growing opinion in this country—and that accounts for the silence of right hon. Gentlemen opposite in their election addresses—which wants this matter to be decided as a practical question in the light of experience, and in the light of the facts of each particular case. Take even the report of the Balfour Committee. The Prime Minister appointed that Committee five years ago. It was a Committee which, I should think, was largely Free Trade in its outlook. It made its final report a few months ago, and even that Committee, strongly biased, if I may so put it, as I can imagine it was, towards Free Trade ideas, with certainly a free trade bias to start with, reported that the experiment of Safeguarding had better be continued until more definite results had been ascertained. When I find a Committee of that kind in favour of judging these matters on practical tests, I am not surprised that the general opinion in the country very largely conforms to such an idea. The Lord Privy Seal said in a speech of great thought and moderation that the real and ultimate solution of unemployment could never be separated from trade, commerce and industry. For myself, that problem to-day seems to me to be of a two-fold character—the problem of how to increase our export trade, and the problem of how to increase consumption at home. I am sure that right hon. Gentlemen on the benches opposite, even my right hon. Friend from whom I have differed so often on these matters, would, at any rate, do me the justice to say that I have been consistent in posing the problem in that way.

I am equally sure—and in this I am saying nothing which I have not said many times in this House—that more and more must the development of our export trade be bound up with the extension of trade within the Empire. I am perfectly certain that the real hope for the development of the export trade of this country lies in the development of mutual trade between different parts of the Empire. Already at this time the Empire is taking something like one-half of the whole of the exports of manufactured articles from this country, and we are able to do that trade in a large measure because of the tremendous value of the preference which we are receiving within the Empire for the goods which we export. When our need is greatest we have the greatest op- portunity, providing we take it now and providing we develop it increasingly in future. If you talk to anybody who is trading with the Empire he will tell you that more and more throughout the Empire is growing the realisation of the mutual value of closer trade relations. Take Canada. [An HON. MEMBER: " Take Australia! "] I am going to say a word about Australia in a moment. Canada is on the eve of tremendous developments, in mining, in natural resources, and in industry. We can share in those developments, and we ought to share in those developments. If changes in the United States tariff are prejudicial to Canada^ surely we should be the more ready, in. our interests just as much as in the interests of Canada, to seize that opportunity in order to offer any encouragement that we can offer to our mutual trade.

An hon. Member says, " Take Australia! " Does he know at all the amount of trade which we do with Australia? I am speaking from memory, but do we not export to Australia something over £60,000,000 worth of manufactured goods every year? Does not Australia take something like £10 or £11 worth of goods from us per head of her population? I do not think there could possibly be a worse example from the point of view of the hon. Member. I will tell you why. There has returned to this country within the last few months a mission led by Sir Arthur Duck-ham, who spent several months in Australia. That mission, 'a mission of the ablest business men whom we could send out, went to Australia at the invitation of the Australian Prime Minister. They did work which was invaluable in Australia. If you look at the views expressed not only by politicians, but by business men, and by labour men, in Australia, you will find that on one thing, at any rate, they are agreed—the value of that Duck-ham Mission. They have come back to this country, and they can be of equal value in this country in the work which they can do in industry here.

It ought to be the aim of every Government and it ought to be the policy of all British industry, to achieve a real partnership in Dominion development. I have often heard it loosely said that development in the Dominions of industries and of manufacture will lessen our opportunities for trade with the Dominions. That has always seemed to me a very shortsighted view to take. If you put it no higher than this, the development of a Dominion, in whatever way it be, which increases its wealth, is going to give to this country a greater market, as wealth is built up and development takes place there. I believe that, apart from any active effort at co-operation on our part, a development of that kind in the Dominions, in a market with a real goodwill, is going to help and not injure this country. But I am sure that with that lndustrial development in the Dominions there comes to this country a tremendous opportunity for a real industrial partnership between British industry and Dominion industry, between development in the Dominions and development here. I look forward with hope, and with certainty providing we maintain a continuous and sane policy, to arrangements in which British industrial capital, and British industrial experience—yes, and British labour—will share in the development of Empire industry.

I am perfectly certain—and I could not take a better instance of it than Australia—that there is a great field in which British industry can co-operate with industry in the Dominions to-day. In any Dominion where development is started, and factories of all kinds begin to spring up, it will naturally happen, if production is not co-related—is not rationalised, to use the word of the day— that you will have sporadic developments of all kinds; but if you envisage a rationalisation of industry which is not merely insular, which does not merely embrace factories in this country, but which bases itself on the idea of a combination of industrial development throughout the whole Empire, then without a doubt you can get to arrangements in which in the Dominions there is concentration on special lines of manufacture, a concentration aided, supported, and influenced by British capital and British industrial experience; and if that kind of co-operation takes place, side by side with that it will be possible for industries in this country to develop special lines suitable for the Dominions and meeting their requirements.

It is that kind of partnership that I look forward to seeing established in industry throughout the whole Empire; it is that kind of rationalisation which affords hope for the expansion of our export trade; and I am perfectly certain that if we pursue a policy of that kind, a partnership such as that would lead the Dominions to extend scientifically the policy of preference, to the great advantage of this country. And if anything on those lines be in tune with the realities of the future, then how important Imperial Preference is, and how mad it would be for us in this country at this time to abandon the policy of Imperial Preference! I could cite to hon. Members opposite eloquent testimony from the Balfour Report in favour of the maintenance of Imperial Preference. They probably know it; if not, they can make themselves acquainted with it. The maintenance of Imperial Preference is, or should be, an essential part of the industrial policy of any Government in this country, for its own value, and as an earnest of our general intentions. I am sure of this, that a repudiation of the policy and principle 'if Imperial Preference would have damaging results on the industry and the trade of the country far exceeding the intrinsic value of the Preference itself, though the value of that Preference, which my right hon. Friend has given in recent Budgets, is very considerable. Therefore, I hope most sincerely that when the Lord Privy Seal begins his discussions with the Dominions, he will be able to go to them and say, " Imperial Preference is as much a part of our policy, is as much a continuing policy throughout any term of office as ours, as it was under our predecessors."

I would also ask this, for it is very relevant to a discussion on Imperial Preference: What are the intentions of the Government with regard to the Merchandise Marks Act? That Act was opposed very keenly when it was introduced. It has been in force now for three years, and it has worked without friction. There are 35 industries, or parts of industries, which have already come within its purview. It is greatly valued by industry in this country, and many other industries are asking that they may come under its scope. It is a necessary complement to all those schemes of the grading and marking of British produce, some of which are in force and others of which are in contemplation. It is, of course, equally vital to any market- ing scheme for Empire produce in this country. I hope, therefore, that equally with Preference, manufacture in this country, agriculture in this country, and all production throughout the Dominions may be assured that that will be continued by the present Government, whatever they may have said or done in the past. It is too dear a price to pay for verbal consistency to sacrifice trade either in this country or in the Dominions. As under present world conditions the importance of Empire markets is greater than ever, so the importance of the home market is in this country greater to-day than ever it was. No one would dispute that of the trade which we do, a larger proportion than in the days before the War depends upon our home markets. Here, again, I would beg consideration of any of these duties upon their merits.

There are two passages in the speech of the Lord Privy Seal which, I am sure, are interesting to hon. Members. In one passage the right hon. Gentleman said: that the efficiency of those industries has been improved, that prices have not risen, but, on the contrary, in most cases prices have fallen. If the Lord Privy Seal pursues his inquiry he will find that imports have been reduced and exports have increased. Not only this, but, as a direct consequence of those duties, employment in other industries not subjected to these particular duties has benefited with the prosperity that has come to those industries where duties have been imposed. Not only has trade benefited and employment increased in regard to those industries, but the output per man has increased on account of a more efficient development of those industries.

There has been an increase since 1924 of 30,000 employed in the motor trade. I am taking the industry as a whole and not the balance sheet of any particular company. I want to see the maximum of production and the maximum of employment, and if those factors are taken into consideration it will be found that there are at the present moment more men employed in the motor industry. In the silk trade—which the Lord Privy Seal wishes to be transferred into the depressed areas—since the imposition of the duty, employment has gone up by something like 28,000 or 30,000, and this is largely in the artificial silk trade. If the natural silk trade is considered, it will be found that one result of the duty has been to increase the trade. I may mention that a Swiss firm has established itself in this country. The same argument applies in the case of musical instruments, in which industry there are now at most 6,000 more employed. Even in the case of industries which were not depressed before the duties were imposed, the extension of those trades would not have been anything like as great as that which has taken place.

When you consider those industries which were particularly depressed and where employment was diminishing, it will be found that the same thing has happened, namely, that unemployment has been checked, and they have been working full time. In the glove industry, which has been so much sneered at, it cannot be argued that there has been an increase in the habit of wearing gloves, but it is a fact that since the imposition of the duty on leather gloves 1,200 more people have been taken on, and an additional 500 people have been employed in the manufacture of fabric gloves. Hon. Members opposite sneer at these facts now, but they did not mention them at the election. It is very important that these matters should be discussed across the Floor of the House where authoritative figures can be asked for and given. In the hollow-ware industry, within four months of the imposition of the duty, three firms were able to take on 450 more men. The button trade has steadily expanded and those engaged in that trade are now working full time. Not only this, but one firm in the button trade has ordered £70,000 or £80,000 worth of machinery within a few weeks, and another firm got so many orders for English buttons that it was able to give its employés a week's holiday on full pay. [An HON. MEMBER: "They made so much profit!"] It is true that they made better profits, but they paid better wages and gave more employment. I should have thought that the hon. Member who interrupted me had learned sufficient from the Lord Privy Seal within the last few weeks to realise that if profits are better in any trade the wages are more likely to be better.

Let me take as another example the lace trade. The Federation of Lace and Embroidery Associations have issued the following statement:

What is the right hon. Gentleman's authority for that statement? Did the right hon. Gentleman make an application to the Union of workers to confirm those figures?

No, I did not. I remember that after the inquiry had taken place in regard to that industry the hon. Member for West Nottingham (Mr. Hayday) supported that duty in the Division Lobby. During the general election the hon. Member said he relied upon his intimate knowledge of the lace trade and he gave a further undertaking that he would go on supporting the duty.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Ministry of Labour figures show that the total number of workers in June, 1925, was 15,200 workers and the total now is 15,700, or an increase of only 3 per cent.

I do not think those figures are very interesting, but what is more interesting is that more people are now actually employed in that industry, and I say without hesitation that since the duty was imposed more people have found employment in the lace industry than were employed in that industry before. I am sure that if the President of the Board of Trade will give us the full facts, they will confirm the view that there are more people employed in the lace industry to-day than there was before the duty. I ask the hon. Member for West Nottingham to confirm his former statement and tell us whether he still stands for the maintenance of that duty.

I understand that the workers in Nottingham are not opposed to those duties, but the hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. Kelly) will have his opportunity later on. If I desired to give a purely party consideration to this question, I could ask for nothing better in order to secure the success of my party in Nottingham than that these duties should be taken oft. I could go through the whole of those duties and point out one after another instances where they have been a success. Take, for example, the chemical industry. Since the imposition of the duty employment in fine chemicals has more than doubled, and not only has there been more employment, but there has been established for the first time in this country a great corps of trained chemists which is of great value to the chemical industry. These duties have induced more British capitalists to invest their money in industry by building new factories and extensions, and even foreign capitalists have also been induced to invest money in new factories and extensions.

Four large foreign motor works have been established in this country, and six tyre factories. These were established after the duties—not one of them before the duties. Does anybody say that any one of these would have come into this country but for these duties? In the case of artificial silk, in which the right hon. Gentleman is interested, you will find foreign undertakings establishing subsidiaries here and setting up their factories, not one of which would have been established if these duties had not been imposed. Throughout the whole range of these industries extensions have been carried on because security has been given. Security has brought development, and development has brought in creased efficiency. I have heard, though not so frequently in this House as out side, attacks made upon the efficiency of those industries. I have heard those who seem to take a peculiar delight in decrying the efficiency of their own industries say that all those industries which have had duties have become in efficient. I ask, where is the evidence of it? Has the motor trade become inefficient in design, when international competitions all over the world are being won by British motor engines? Is that a sign of inefficiency in the development of the motor trade? When you find a man like Lord Eiddell—not a paper- maker, but a paper user on a consider able scale, and a man who certainly has no Protectionist proclivities—getting up in another place and declaring, from his knowledge of that trade, that a tremendous advance has been made since the duty, that new classes of paper are being manufactured in this country—

No, but kraft paper is being manufactured in this country. I remember, when the duty was being put on, the hon. Gentleman saying that it could not be manufactured in this country, but it is being manufactured here. Then take the whole range of key industries, which are so vital in times of peace. Is there anybody in this House who challenges the efficiency of these key industries, established first of all by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), and carried on and maintained by us with a continuity of policy which certainly the right hon. Gentle man has not always found among all his followers? Take those industries, as to the importance of which we were all agreed in time of need in war, and which, in time of peace to-day, with the scientific development of our industries, are even more important and more essential to us than they were in the crisis of the War. What is their record as regards efficiency? Our optical glass is of a higher standard, I think, than in any other country in the world. In lenses, where the highest grade of workmanship is required, this country is supreme in international competition. The greatest firm of camera makers in the United States, when they want to provide a first-class article, come to Britain to buy a lens, and import it in spite of their high tariff. That is purely due to efficiency, and that industry has been built up behind these duties. Laboratories to-day which before the War depended for their equipment on foreign countries are entirely equipped with porcelain and scientific instruments made in this country.

As regards fine chemicals, it is absolutely vital to this country in its metallurgical development that it should have a great fine chemical industry. In the development of metallurgy, whether it be in regard to blast furnaces, or the purity of steel, or the finding of new alloys, no one denies that it is vital that you should have trained chemists, and that the whole of your metal industry should have at its disposal a great chemical industry in this country. Before these duties that did not exist, but it exists to-day. I remember it being asked whether, having put 5,000 chemicals on a list, we supposed that any of those could be made in this country. 3,500 of them are being made by one single firm in this country to-day, and not only are we making these fine chemicals for consumption in our own country, but we are getting a great export. In insulin we have, I believe, almost captured the export trade of the world. We are developing an Imperial trade, too. The duty put on fine chemicals encouraged Canada to go into the manufacture of acetone, and I believe that a large trade is being done between this country and Canada to-day by reason of that duty. In regard to dyes, I do not take the testimony of a maker, but the testimony of a user. Sir Henry Sutcliffe Smith, who has been for many years the President of the Colour Users' Association, gave it as his considered opinion, at their annual meeting, that in no industry in this country had a greater advance been made in 10 years than in the dye industry. When you get results like that, is it unreasonable to ask that, in these difficult times, a decision should be taken on the merits of the case without prejudice?

Greater production has meant lower costs and lower prices, and we are better able to compete in consequence. Anyone who is acquainted with industrial production to-day knows that, if you have the most efficient factory you can get, equipped with new equipment, it is vital, in order to get the best results, that that factory should run full time. You can only get the best results if you can keep your factory running full time. Some of these factories are running full time today because they have been given a reasonable measure of security. Therefore, you have better and cheaper production because of that security, and you get the answer to the other question which the Lord Privy Seal asked—how can we ourselves make some of the things which we previously imported? I would ask him to obtain from his colleague at the Board of Trade the figures of exports and imports of these dutiable articles. He will find that in 1924 the retained imports of dutiable articles were £50,000,000, while in 1928 the imports of these articles had fallen to £39,000,000, and during the same period the exports of the same kind of articles had risen from £29,500,000 to £39,500,000. Making allowance for the fall in prices, the reduction in imports and the increase in exports is still more striking. These figures, of course, have often been given in the House, and, if you take the corresponding figures for manufactured articles not liable to duty, the President of the Board of Trade will confirm my statement that the imports have risen and the exports have gone down in the same period. There, I think, is the complete answer for which the Lord Privy Seal asked to his question, what could be done to make in this country some of the things that we are importing to-day?

The last claim that I make, and it is a practical claim, for these duties, is that no other trade has suffered, but that many other trades have benefited. Who is going to deny that, when new factories are established, as they have been, it is the English building trade which has profited thereby? Those factories have been equipped with British steel and British machinery. The development of the chemical industry has created a whole new type of engineering products. We were hardly making chemical machinery in this country, but to-day almost a new branch of our engineering industry has been established, making new types of machinery in order to supply the equipment—the constantly changing equipment— for these chemical plants. All the time that this industrial development has been proceeding, whether in the building of factories and their extension, or in the manufacture that goes on in them all the time, you are getting an improved custom for coal and for steel. Above and beyond that, the addition of tens of thousands to the number employed means ability to place orders in other trades, and increased purchasing power in the country. I challenge my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade to repudiate a single one of these facts which I have given to-day. In face of these facts, is it sane or reasonable to sacrifice the revenue which is being obtained to-day— and it is a revenue of something like £12,000,000—from these duties, and to sacrifice your trade at the same time? Whatever speeches may have been made sometimes by hon. Members opposite, they at any rate can support these duties with a perfectly clear conscience and with a perfect consistency, those who are members of trade unions. These duties have been imposed because, after exhaustive inquiry, it has been found that the conditions in foreign countries are inferior. Suppose that some employers—

It applies to the Safeguarding Duties, and, if there were an inquiry into the motor industry, apart from the United States, I have not the least doubt that it would be found that the wages paid in Continental countries are inferior. I am perfectly content, however, to base my claim for the retention of the Motor Duties upon the simple fact that they raise revenue for this country, and that they have put tens of thousands of men into employment directly and many more into employment indirectly. It is one thing for a right hon. Gentleman in a position of great irresponsibility to say that he would sweep away the Motor Duties if he came in, but it is a much more serious consideration for right hon. Gentlemen opposite, who have to consider this matter, and will, I hope, wisely consider it, from the point of view of revenue and from the point of view of unemployment. As regards the whole of the safeguarded trades, it does apply without the least doubt, and these duties have been put on because conditions of employment in foreign countries were inferior. Is there a single hon. Member opposite connected with the trade union movement who would not go out and call a strike to-morrow if an employer attempted to bring in foreign labour and pay it at foreign rates?

Is there any Member on that side of the House who would not use the Trade Unions Act against us if we did?

Certainly; I should have the most cordial sympathy with the hon. Gentleman. I think it would be by far the most justifiable strike that has ever been called, and I would go out and support him. If my right hon. Friend appeals to me for support to protect him against the importation of sweated labour at low rates into this country, must he not, in all consistency and in all political decency, give me his support when I ask for it to protect labour in this country against imports of goods made under inferior conditions?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a few days ago it was reported that 3,000 tons of pig iron had come into Swansea from India, produced by cheap labour? What would he do with that?

What would happen if we had come into office would have been that the steel industry would have been entitled to an inquiry under the Safeguarding procedure and, therefore, the question should be addressed to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I will add a supplementary in case anything should be left out. I will now put a question on the matter which will interest both the hon. Member and myself. In this inquiry which is going to be made, I understand, into the steel industry, is the question of a duty to be included or not? Both the hon. Member and I want an answer to that.

The point I was making is that these were goods produced within the Empire—British goods.

As a matter of fact, under the whole Safeguarding Duties there is a duty put on against Empire goods with a preference in their favour. It is very important to ascertain these facts. In his speech a day or two ago the Lord Privy 'Seal said he realised the difficulties he had to face. I think right hon. Gentlemen realise, now that they are in office, how much greater those difficulties are than they had supposed. You know that industry needs both certainty and encouragement. You know that the standard of living and the purchasing power of our people can only be maintained and improved by the development of our industry. Every one of us who has taken the trouble to study the matter knows that more and more the prosperity of our trade and industry is linked up with the development of Empire trade and Empire resources. It is the plain duty of the Government to let industries know where they stand and to say what they mean to do. In giving their decision they have a great opportunity, and I would beg them to use it to give to the trade and industry of the country not only the certainty of their intention, but to the trade and industry of the country and of the whole Empire a message of encouragement and hope.

I cannot claim to be quite a new Member, having spent about 30 years of my life in the House, but I hope hon. Members will be blind to my faults. Coming back, as one does, to the old familiar topics on the tapis, I find the Conservative party still preaching Protection. It is to me very remarkable that, like the Bourbons of old, they have learnt nothing and forgotten nothing. I have never been able to understand how any party can believe that you will increase the wealth of the country by imposing more taxes. Safeguarding and all these kindred duties mean more taxes. I believe taxation and unemployment go together. We have the highest taxation in the world and we have the greatest amount of unemployment. [An HON. MEMBER: " In a Free Trade country! "] We did not have it before we had such heavy taxation. It is the heavy taxation to-day that is creating unemployment. [Interruption.'] Perhaps hon. Members will allow a semi-new Member to go on. The right hon. Gentleman has talked about uncertainty. Whose has been the uncertainty? Why did the Conservative party, in face of the clear decision of the country, impose Safeguarding Duties? On every occasion on which the country has been consulted on this question of Safeguarding it has sent back a decisive reply against all forms of Protection. [HON. MEMBERS: " No! "] Let me examine it with hon. Members. In 1906, led by that very virile statesman, Mr. Joseph Chamberlain, the Tariff Reform movement was decisively rejected. Then after the War the late Mr. Bonar Law came in with a policy of tranquillity. The late Prime Minister went to the country on a policy of Protection. That was decisively rejected. Can anyone say that the 1924 election was fought on Protection? [An HON. MEMBER: " On Safeguarding ! "] In my constituency the 1924 Election was fought on Socialism— the Red Letter and Russia. Do not let anyone believe the Election of 1924 was fought on Safeguarding or anything like that. The last Election was brought about by a Government which had been in office for 4½ years. There was a decisive majority against Safeguarding and Protection given by the country. There is no question about it. There were 8,000,000 Conservative voters, 8,000,000 Labour voters and 5,000,000 Liberal voters. Liberal voters have always been against Protection. The Labour party is against Protection. [HON. MEMBERS: " Is it? "] We shall see. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer cannot control his followers a very interesting situation will develop.

But I want to go on a little further. I have in my hand the Report of the Committee on the woollen industry. This Committee was appointed to suggest or to negative a duty on ladies' dresses. What do they say? Here is paragraph 11:

The terms were exactly the same as those of the right hon. Gentleman's leader, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George).

I am very sorry, but that is not an answer. As a matter of fact, at that time I was not fighting under the banner of my right hon. Friend. Unfortunately, he sent a coupon against me in 1918 which was signed by Mr. Bonar Law. I must disclaim all responsibility for that. I ask right hon. Gentlemen on the Conservative Front Bench why do they appoint a committee and keep outside its reference the application of these duties to consumers. It is not dealing with the question properly. The late President of the Board of Trade talks of uncertainty. What greater un certainty can you have than this, that you appoint a committee, when you are going to impose a duty and expect it to be permanent for all time, and actually withdraw from its consideration one of the most vital aspects of the case? If hon. Members imagine that ladies are going to be satisfied that their dresses shall be taxed—

:In certain places they rather like them to be taxed.

I always like to have controversy with the hon. and gallant Baronet because he is so agreeable, lie always seems like the Peter Pan of politics—the boy who never grows up. I have never come across any lady who wanted to pay a tax. If the hon. Baronet went to the Customs House at Dover or Folkestone he would find many ladies who rather objected to these taxes.

All of them. Women object to a lot of things, but have to bear with them.

I hope the Noble Lady will not support her own party in asking ladies to bear with taxes on dresses.

5.0 p.m.

Coming back to the main question, we can have Protection or we can have Free Trade, but we cannot have the two mixed up together. If you protect one industry you must protect all. [HON. MEMBEBS: " No! "] I am very sorry to excite so much opposition but hon. Members must allow me to have my own opinion. In my judgment, if you protect one industry you must protect all. Therefore, I ask, as one who has been engaged all his life in agricultural pursuits and who represents a large agricultural constituency, if Safeguarding is good for silk, why is it not good for agriculture? I have never been able to get an answer to that question. If it increases employment, could you do better than increase employment on the land? If it cheapens production all consumers will be pleased. Therefore, I say with great emphasis, you have no right to call on the farmers to pay increased prices for everything they have to buy and to sell in the free markets of the world. The Farmers' Union have put that point. They put it with extreme clearness. The Farmers' Union have been very well represented on this. Therefore, I would say that it is extremely unfair to the agriculturists to ask them to pay protective duties. Take the coal industry. How can Protection benefit the coal industry? Take the cotton industry. Here is a statement which I received this morning and one which, I have no doubt, hon. Members have received also. There is not a single word about Safeguarding in this statement by the cotton group. What is wrong with Lancashire goods as far as the foreign consumer is concerned is the question of price. The price of our goods is too dear. You are going to increase the cost of production and make our goods dearer by imposing taxes.

Can the right hon. Gentleman give a case where the price has been increased in a single textile industry?

All that I can say to the hon. and gallant Gentleman is, that if he imagines that taxes lower the price of the products—

Has not the price of home-made gloves gone down since foreign gloves were taxed?

Really, if hon. Gentlemen believe that by imposing a tax upon an article you are going to cheapen that article, I part company with them.

I think that I have answered the question. Hon. Gentlemen say that Safeguarding does not increase prices. I happen to have here one or two quotations. Let me take a quotation from the right hon. Gentleman who introduced these Safeguarding Duties, Lord Melchett. After all, Lord Melchett is a great business man. What did he say when he brought in these duties on 31st May, 1921?

" Certainly it will have the effect of raising prices…. Of course it will raise prices. It is bound to do so."

Hon. Gentlemen are interrupting. All that I can give is the opinion of Sir Alfred Mond when he brought in these duties. [Interruption.] It does not alter the fact, really. You really must get back to facts. He says:

" Of course, it will raise prices. If it does not do that, there would be no point in it." —[OFFICIAL REPOBT, 31st May, 1921; col. 977, Vol. 142.]

Do hon. Gentlemen think that any manufacturer wants duties to be put on in order to lower the price of the product? The thing is too stupid for words.

Can the right hon. Gentleman mention one article that has been increased in price owing to the Safeguarding Duties?

I have not come here provided with the prices of these articles. I shall be glad if hon. Gentlemen will kindly allow me to continue. It is a little difficult to continue a speech with hon. Members behind me interrupting. I remember the House of Commons when statements, though they might not be appreciated by hon. Members, were listened to in silence.

If every definite statement with which hon. Members do not agree is to be met with voluble interruption, we shall never be able to conduct Debates at all. I want to be perfectly fair. I want to go further. This is a question of Protection and Free Trade. I will quote what Lord Balfour said about it. Perhaps Lord Balfour will be regarded as an authority. He said:

"What is a Protective policy? A Protective policy, as I understand it, is a policy which aims at supporting or creating home industries by raising home prices."

Hon. Members of the Conservative party may throw over whom they like. I have quoted Sir Alfred Mond (now Lord Melchett) and Mr. (now Lord) Balfour— [HON. MEMBERS: "Date !"] In 1904. [Interruption.] Facts are facts. Facts have not altered in 25 years. I am going to deal a little further with this matter. I say that Protection increases prices. I will go on to say that it introduces a very undesirable element into our political life, and that is corruption. In the old days Members of Parliament used to bribe with their own money; now they bribe with the taxpayers' money. I have known Conservative speakers talk about the immorality of hon. Gentlemen opposite in making promises, and I have known them go down to a constituency and make a deliberate promise that if support was given to a certain policy they would benefit financially. There is no doubt whatever of that. In my constituency there is a small glove industry. What is the cry? "If you vote for the Liberal candidate and Free Trade the glove industry will suffer." That may be right or it may be wrong, but it is sectional bribery. What did the right hon. Gentleman the late Prime Minister say?

" By the imposition of a Safeguarding Duty on Cutlery the Government have already given material help to one of the industries on which the prosperity of Sheffield depends."

That was during a by-election. You were going to put money into the pockets of the people of Sheffield which was to come out of the pockets of other taxpayers of the country. I say that that is sectional corruption. [Interruption.] I do not understand the interruption. Let us take the cutlery industry. I read in the "Times" this morning that the cutlery industry is far from being busy. I have in my constituency a very distinguished gentleman who is a relative of the late Minister of Health. He is one of the Chamberlain family. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Edgbaston (Mr. Chamberlain), I am sure, knows him. Mr. Arthur Chamberlain has come into Devonshire. He is a very strong supporter of the policy of Free Trade. So was his father. Therefore, all the Chamberlain family are not alike. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman the late President of the Board of Trade that we must cultivate our export trade. I do not believe that you can cultivate an export trade by imposing new taxes on imports. We are the weakest country in the world as far as reprisals are concerned. Britain is very strong financially, but we are too weak to retaliate on any other country. We must be weak because we will never tax food and raw materials. The right hon. Gentleman talked about the motor industry and said how very prosperous it is. I think he said that 30,000 more people were employed. I read the report of the deputation from the motor industry to the late Chancellor of the Exchequer. This is what Sir George Beharrel said, and he ought to know what he is talking about. He is the Managing Director of the Dunlop Factory, and represents 22 motoring organisations. I ask the House kindly to compare Sir George Beharrel's version with that of the right hon. Gentleman the late President of the Board of Trade. Sir George says:

"For the first time since the War the British production of motor vehicles fell below the total of the previous year though world production continued to rise."

He says here, and it is a definite fact, that the motor production of 1928 fell below the motor production of 1927. That is either true or it is not true. It can be verified. The right hon. Gentleman the late President of the Board of Trade stated that we were increasing our export trade in motors. This is what Sir George Beharrel says:

"The export of motor vehicles decreased by 9 per cent, as compared with 1927."

That is a deliberate challenge to the right hon. Gentleman's figures.

What I gave was the aggregate figures with reference to these duties.

I am afraid that I cannot get away from Sir George Beharrel's figures, and, if the right hon. Gentleman will allow me to say so, I would prefer Sir George Beharrel's figures to his.

They were not my own figures, but were prepared for me by the Board of Trade.

I observe that Sir George Beharrel, representing the motor organisation, would know what he was talking about. He goes on to say: Safeguarding will allow the manufacturers to carry on in their own way, and not develop their export trade. I want to arraign the policy of the late Government. They were thinking more of imports. This country must think of its exports. Look at the position to-day, after 4j years of Conservative Government. The Bank Bate stands at 5j per cent. That is a serious matter for industry. The old Lady of Threadneedle Street, once so prim and proper, is now dancing jazz with the American Wall Street speculators. These things did not occur in the old days of Free Trade. It is a matter of exports. Our exports are not increasing as they ought to do, and because our exports are not increasing the Bank Rate has gone to 5½ per cent.

We hear a great deal about Imperial Preference. I do not believe that you can build prosperity on taxes, and I do not believe that you can build an Empire on taxes. Take the question of the Tea Duty. Hon. Members must not use these fiscal problems merely as they suit them politically. The Tea Duty was taken off, and there was a Preference given on Colonial tea. That was the policy of the late Government, because of political exigencies. They did not care twopence about Preference. It was a matter of gaining votes in this country. [An HON. MEMBER: "Bribery!"] There is a good deal of sectional bribery. I have made many quotations, and I will now quote from one distinguished statesman a statement which I remember well when it was used in the old fiscal controversies. I refer to a highly respected statesman, the late Lord Salisbury. Dealing with speculative Imperial Preference, he used these words, and they are very wise words: tions between the old country and the Dominions. It is a question of transport. If we can cheapen transport—and I would go a very long way to cheapen transport between the old country and the Dominions, we shall add far more to the inter-Imperial trade than by any system of tariffs. I make hon. Members a present of that idea.

I speak as an old Liberal. I am an individualist. [HON. MEMBERS: " The last one."] That may be so, but I am not going to haul down that flag. I object to Government interference with commerce. Hon. Members of the Conservative party say: " We are going to interfere by taxes." One Socialist party in the country is quite enough for me. I still stand up as an individualist. The real problem is to withdraw Government control from industry. I do not believe in the smallest degree that Governments can create prosperity. They can do a great deal to hamper prosperity, and I believe they are doing that to-day by very heavy taxes. We have had a fall in prices. [An HON. MEMBER: " Due to Safeguarding."] Is my hon. Friend's intelligence only equal to that? There has been a fall in world prices. One of the great cries made by the late Government has been that they have reduced the cost of living by 18 points. We know what the fall in prices has been in the agricultural community. We are suffering pretty severely there. Agriculture and agricultural products are not safeguarded.

In 1925, a farmer could pay for £l of labour or £l worth of materials or £l worth of manure or £l of rent with three bushels of wheat. To-day, it takes four bushels to pay that same £l. That is the serious position in the producing industry. The farmers, and the arable farmers especially, are suffering very severely, and it is due to this very fall in prices of which we are talking. The late Government brought down prices by restoring the gold standard, but they did not bring down the cost of production, and the farmer, the coal miner, and the producing industries are suffering as a result. It is in that direction, in reducing the cost of production, that the ultimate salvation of this country lies. I say definitely for myself, and I hope for the Liberal party, that we do not believe that you can increase the prosperity of the country by taxing it.

This is the first time that I have spoken in this House, and I do so now because the constituency which I fought during the General Election was one in which the issue of Safeguarding occupied a foremost place. The result of the election in that division —a division in which the motor industry has one of its chief centres, where Messrs. Goodyear have recently established their largest artificial silk factory and where Messrs. Goodyear have recently established a large tyre factory —showed a majority of 8,000 votes against the policy of Safeguarding, which has been advocated in this House to-day. If the right hon. Gentleman the ex-President of the Board of Trade is successful in persuading the Conservative party to nail the Protectionist flag to its mast at the next election, then we upon these benches can look forward to the next election with as great a confidence as we looked forward to the election which has just concluded.

It is easy enough for the right hon. Gentleman to prove that by manipulating tariffs you can affect the fortunes of this or that trade, but what he is required to do is not to prove that you can improve this industry or depress that industry by tariff manipulation, but that the country as a whole will be the better and not the worse for the application of Safeguarding and tariffs. The country as a whole includes the consumer, and it includes the farming population. The dilemma which the tariff reformer is always in has been explicitly burked by the right hon. Gentleman this afternoon. If his tariffs do not include food, then he puts the farming community at a complete disadvantage compared with the rest of the community. If his tariffs do include the farming industry, then be increases the cost of living for the community as a whole. From that dilemma there is no escape, and there has been no method of escape suggested in the speech of the right hon. Gentleman.

Not only do tariffs raise prices, not only do they stereotype relative inefficiency, if not complete inefficiency, but they do something else which has not been referred to in the Debate this afternoon —they add one more barrier to a whole series of barriers which puts Europe at a disadvantage both with America and, as I think, at a later stage, with Russia. America has this enormous advantage over Europe that her political system is continental in scale. Russia has that advantage, too. In Europe we have a relatively small continent divided not only by the natural barriers of nationality and language but divided also by perfectly artificial barriers of tariffs, from which Europe would do well to free itself. The advice of the League of Nations that it is to the interests of Europe to get rid of the tariff barriers that divide it, is advice which appears to have fallen on deaf ears so far as the Opposition Front Bench is concerned.

There is another point to be remembered. It is not enough for us on this side of the House to demonstrate that tariffs or Safeguarding are no remedy for our present industrial situation. If we confine ourselves to that, hon. Members opposite are entitled to draw our attention to the fact that under Free Trade, agriculture has declined to an alarming condition in this country, and they are entitled to draw our attention to the state of our export trades at the present time. I speak from the Labour Benches, and I desire to make my own position clear. I regard Free Trade by itself as no more of a solution of our industrial problems than the Tariff Reform system that we have heard advocated from the Front Opposition Bench to-day. We have to show not merely the inadequacy of tariffs, but we have to indicate the basic causes of our present wrongs before we can put them right. The free trader pure and simple, and, as I think, more simple than pure, does not mind imports coming into this country because he says that they are balanced by exports, and that as long as exports balance imports we are all right. Unfortunately for that argument, imports and exports never balance. There is a deficiency in our exports of £350,000,000 per annum compared with imports. That does not trouble the free trader very much because he says that, although there is an apparent adverse trade balance, it is more apparent than real; it is offset by invisible exports.

These invisible exports come under three heads, the services which our mercantile marine render in the transport of goods, bankers' commissions and services and, finally, capital which is exported from this country year by year. I am prepared to give the free trader the first two of these items and to argue that it is legitimate to set them against the adverse trade balance, but the third item—the export of capital, which accounts for £250,000,000 per annum—is-not a benefit to this country in the sense that it requires to be a trade benefit if we are to set if off against the adverse trade balance. On the contrary, that very export of capital is the cause of the excess of imports over exports, which hon. Members opposite are trying' to remedy by their tariff system. It is the particular cause of that excess, because you cannot have overseas investments without having to accept the tribute which they bring, and all modern experience shows that whether a tribute takes the form of compulsory reparations imposed on a Power defeated in war or of imports that come in by way of interest on your capital invested overseas, whichever of these two forms it takes, its effect upon industries at home is precisely the same. Its effect is to put our men out of work and make it impossible to give our population a decent standard of life. I do not ask the House to accept my authority for this. Let me quote the words of Professor Keynes, who is a very well known Liberal economist. Speaking at the Liberal Summer School in 1924 he said: in India and elsewhere, and imposes upon us the necessity of maintaining armies and navies to keep them in subjection, but also results in the development of industries which compete with our own industries at home and still further depresses the condition of the working classes in this country. Neither the Conservative policy of tariffs nor the Liberal policy of Free Trade individualism touches the root problem we have to face. There is only one policy that does, and that is the Socialist policy of taking the national surplus for the national good.

I am sure the whole House has listened with great interest to the speech which has just been delivered, and I am voicing the opinion of all Members on these benches when I congratulate the hon. Member, first, on the fact that he can be heard, secondly, that he has managed to compress a great deal into a short speech, and thirdly, that in spite of the fact that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has declared himself to be an unrepentant Free Trader he has told us that so far as he is concerned he will have nothing to do with it any more than with the policy of tariffs. I am grateful to the hon. Member for his contribution to this Debate. I hope he will forgive me if I do not follow him very far in his argument but everyone was interested in what he had to say with regard to investments. I am glad that he has brought this question before our consideration to-day. I am sorry that the right hon. Member for South Molton (Mr. G. Lambert) is not in the House at the moment, because I want to reply to one or two things he said in his speech. First of all he asked the question: How can you impose a tax without the price going up? That is the old theory. In these modern days those who have anything to do with business realise that there is only one way by which you can decrease costs of production, and that is by an increased output. It has' been discovered that if you give an industry security by means of Safeguarding a man who has invested his money in that industry is prepared to invest more money, expand the industry, scrap the old plant, turn out goods in greater quantity, and, of course, turn out cheaper goods for sale in our markets at home and in the competitive exports markets of the world. I apologise to the House for mentioning such a platitude.

The right hon. Member for South Molton seemed to think that if you impose any kind of Safeguarding Duty you are increasing the taxes on the people. We have to get rid of the taxes on the people of this country, and I would point out that under the Safeguarding Duties and the McKenna Duties, we have received £12,000,000, and, obviously, have reduced taxes by this amount in our annual Budgets. The right hon. Member described me as a kind of "Old Man of the Sea," but really he has been absent so long that he must get in touch with modern economic thought. He made one other remark with which I should like to deal. Here again he seemed to be very foggy, and I think there are other hon. Members who are suffering from the same trouble. He said: If you tax silk, why not tax agriculture? The answer is very clear. So far as the Safeguarding procedure is concerned if you can produce the whole of the goods in this country you are obviously capable of competing with foreign countries and there is no need for the price to be raised. In any commodity in which you cannot produce the whole of your supplies in this country you are at the mercy of the foreigner, and there may be some temporary rise in price. In the case of tea and sugar duties imposed by the Liberal Governments the consumer had to pay the whole of the tax because we did not grow tea and sugar, but when you put a duty on something which we can produce ourselves the consumer need not necessarily have the price raised to any extent whatever, and it may even be decreased if some security is given.

Then, the right hon. Member asked, how are you going to help the coal industry by Safeguarding? Here, again, a little study will show the right hon. Member that in almost every manufactured article we make in this country we require coal. Apparently it has never occurred to him that the enormous expansion in the motor industry has been one of the few helpful factors so far as the coal industry is concerned. You require coal in the making of steel, and if you safeguard any industry which uses steel and other metals coal is the principal commodity you are helping. I am sorry the Leader of the Liberal party is out of the House at the moment, because I particularly wanted to refer to one or two statements he has made in the past. There are some people who regard the question of Free Trade as a kind of religion—and we must speak very respectfully of it. You might just as well put facts and figures before a set of Dervishes as before some hon. and right hon. Members in this House, although I see that their number is declining. Even in the case of the Secretary of State for War there is a glimmer of light, because he has declared that it is monstrous that there should be all these foreign goods coming in British shops. I am glad he has dissociated himself from the pedagogues and become a genuine trade unionist once more.

As no proofs you put before them will convince some hon. Members it is necessary to ask them to consider the actual religion itself. We must endeavour to prove that that religion should not be followed to-day, as it really is almost immoral because it is so inaccurate. The Leader of the Liberal party really cannot speak with any consistency in this Debate, because he laid down this very definite statement, which every one of his followers at that time received as an election mandate; that was only in 1918. He said: which he called his unemployment policy. Those who read it accurately and thoroughly will find one passage which is really remarkable; because the Liberal party fought on this policy; it was their great hope in the industrial centres. It read as follows:

I am glad to be able to say that every Member of our party supported the late Prime Minister in his policy. As far as I am aware, there was not one single Member of our party who did not accept the Safeguarding policy laid down by the leader of our party. What is much more important perhaps even than the right hon. Gentleman's views (because we know that they are transitory) are the views of the professors, Mr. Keynes and Mr. Henderson. They wrote a very important document, which I imagine is the basis of the Liberal philosophy, entitled " Can Lloyd George do it? " I am not sure that it has not been set to music. The fact remains that Mr. Keynes, in sympathy with the views of the hon. Gentleman who spoke, openly declared that it was more profitable to invest money in home production and development rather than to lend abroad; and this is so very important that I hope the House will forgive me if once more I quote. They say in this production:

I mentioned just now that I was sorry the right hon. Gentleman the leader of the Liberal party was not here to explain whether there has been any alteration in the course of trade which would cause him to alter the views which he previously declared. I think that the House will be interested in this: In the first five months of this year the imports of manufactured goods, after deducting re-exports, are £125,400,000, and that is at the annual rate of £301,000,000 sterling. I know this will interest the Members of the party opposite who are considering the question of employment. £300,000,000 sterling of imported manufactures means that we are employing at the present moment more than a million foreigners. Here surely is the solution for the right hon. Gentleman the Lord Privy Seal. Why not transfer the work which you are giving to a million foreigners, or as much of it as you can transfer, to a million British unemployed, and bring them once more into productive industry?

I know that the right hon. Gentleman is not altogether out of sympathy with me on this, and I know that there are hon. Gentlemen sitting up on the back benches opposite, the stronger part of the supporters of His Majesty's Government, who agree with every word that I am saying. [Laughter.] If hon. Members laugh too much, I shall have to quote. I am glad to see that the right hon. Gentleman who is frequently spoken of as the future Prime Minister of a Labour Government is in his place. Did he or did he not say that if a ship were bringing into this country goods which were made by cheap foreign labour with which we could not compete, he would use the British Navy to sink that ship? If the right hon. Gentleman the Lord Privy Seal were to look at the whole question from that point of view—and it is clear that his mind is running in that direction —I believe he would be regarded as the saviour of British industry at this time. Why does he not do it? He need not be afraid of the dozen of Liberal opponents here. He will have the whole of his own supporters and the whole of our people behind him. He is very concerned to consider this question.

He asked a question in these words: "What is there that we are importing to-day which we can make ourselves?" A very important question; and what does that mean? That means that he thinks it is immensely desirable that we should ourselves make these goods which we are at present importing. Let us try to help him to solve this problem. The aim and the policy of our party has been along those lines. In the Coalition such famous Liberals and ex-Liberals as the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of that party, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for St. Ives (Mr. Runciman)— he was the one who nursed the baby— and the right hon. Gentleman who supported him at that time, Mr. Reginald McKenna—all Liberals, mind—were the men who thought it was very necessary to adopt this policy. Very well; it has been a wonderful success; and if the right hon. Gentleman the Lord Privy Seal wants to see encouragement of the production of British goods, we gave that encouragement. Now the Chancellor of the Exchequer, opposing himself to the achievement of the last three Governments for partisan reasons (because there can be no real reason of another description), is going to do away with those Duties, and is going to risk misery and suffering in the industries concerned.

The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby (Mr. J. H. Thomas) has our sympathy, because we all realise that he is going to have a very difficult task. He has to compete with the Chancellor of the Exchequer. When he makes proposals such as the use of steel sleepers and steel telegraph poles in this country, he makes me very, very glad that he has discovered something, because it is a question which I have been discussing with some experts for some years past, and I believe that some railways are actually in the process of trying them. I do not know why the right hon. Gentleman suddenly came down here as if he were a conjurer producing rabbits out of a hat. He did not originate the idea of steel telegraph poles; he merely stated what people had been experimenting upon. But what is the good of that? What is the good of these £7,500,000 or £75,000,000—we do not know which—that we are going to spend on Liverpool Street Station; because it is going to be spent largely on steel goods? What is the good of buying your sleepers and telegraph poles and steel materials from foreign countries while your people are all out of work? Is the party opposite advocating that policy? If not, what do they mean?

Here we have the Chancellor of the Exchequer saying, "Get rid of all these duties," and we have the Minister of Employment saying, "Buy British steel telegraph poles and sleepers." What does he mean by it? He Can ensure that only by prohibition or by licences or by Safeguarding. We ask him this afternoon, "What does he mean?" One thing I can tell him, and that is this: There is, I am convinced, no man who is more indignant at the idea of steel telegraph posts than the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Look how his indignation was aroused over the question of wrapping paper! He has written to the Norwegian papers, and he became almost the Chancellor of the Exchequer of Norway before he sat upon that bench opposite. He said this:

I want to say one word with regard to what I mentioned earlier, the Yorkshire textiles. What is the position there exactly? Does the Prime Minister really lay down that no industry is to be saved from ruin even if a trade union comes along and unanimously demands some form of security? He says that in no circumstances is he going to do that. One of my friends is going to deal with the trade union position a little later on; I have not the time; but I would remind the House that this demand, when it was originally presented from Yorkshire, came from the trade union concerned.

It came up only after repeated demands from the employers that the workers should support them, and after a threat of a reduction in wages.

6.0 p.m.

In reply to what the right hon. Gentleman said, I think what I said was not inaccurate, that this demand came originally from the leaders of the trade union concerned. It is a debating point. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] Whether it came originally or not from them, at any rate it came from the trade union leaders concerned. [HON. MEMBERS: "Under pressure!"] Whether it came under pressure or not, all I can say is that when I was in that part of the country I found a great many trade unionists who were most anxious to have this measure of security given to their industry. [An HON. MEMBER: "The lesser of two evils!"] The fact remains that since that question was first raised, and since a committee was asked for by those trade union leaders, the position has gone from bad to worse, and these imports are pouring in at an even greater rate at the present time. Hon. Gentlemen seem to think that these questions are not really associated with employment. In 1927 the unemployment rate in these industries, taking the whole of the Yorkshire textile industries, was 8.5 per cent. In May, 1928, it was 8.7 per cent. and in May, 1929, it was 11.5 per cent. That is a very serious increase. I know that hon. Gentlemen opposite want to take action immediately in order to show that they are going to do something, but I beg of them not to take such action as is going to thwart the obvious desire of so many trade unionists in that area.

I turn from the attitude in this matter of the Government and their allies—who have resumed the role of the patient oxen in this House—to the outstanding folly of the decision to repeal the Duties or allow them to lapse. I think that decision has been arrived at chiefly because the Chancellor of the Exchequer cannot bear to be proved wrong. The President of the Board of Trade, whom we are glad to see in his place, may or may not agree with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but I think I am correct in stating that there are four main grounds on which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has always taken his stand in this matter. He says that Safeguarding or Protective Duties will not increase production; that they will not increase employment; that they will decrease exports and that they will raise prices. No one outside Bedlam will deny that, in every single case, the production figures have gone up, and I need not waste a moment of the House's time on that subject. With regard to employment I think we are sometimes inclined to forget that the only true test of employment is to be found in the figures since the Duties were all originally imposed. We have been debating what was very proper in the last Parliament, namely, the rise in the number of those employed since the late Conservative Government re-imposed the Duties in 1925. Obviously, the only true test is to take the figures as from the time when the Duties were imposed, and I submit with confidence that the increase in the numbers employed in all those industries which are benefited by Safeguarding measures—the increase directly and indirectly—is something over 500,000 persons. I do not know if any hon. Member will challenge that figure. I do not wish to waste the time of the House, and perhaps they will allow me to leave it at that. Taking the figures from 1914, directly and indirectly 500,000 additional persons have been absorbed in those industries since the Duties were imposed. Hon. Gentlemen may say that it has been in spite of the Duties. I do not mind that. The fact remains that they have been absorbed.

Even the hon. Member who is vocal will not deny that employment has been increased and that being the case it disposes of the right hon. Gentleman's second point. We come to his third point about which I think he has been more consistent than any other Member of this House. He says that Safeguarding Duties are bound to restrict exports. I do not want to be accused of mixing up Safeguarding Duties and McKenna Duties. Personally, it does not seem to me to make much difference whether you call a 33 ⅓ per cent. Duty a Safeguarding Duty or a McKenna Duty.

regard to prices, the right hon. Gentleman always tells us that everything you safeguard will cost you more. He was supported by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Molton (Mr. Lambert), but it was rather pathetic that when we challenged him to give a single instance he was unable to reply. I am very glad to be able to tell the House that there is no single case. I hear a mutter about gas mantles. That was the only case that could be produced but I am glad to be able to say that gas mantles—the cheaper kind which the Liberal party like—were to be had recently at prices as cheap as and cheaper than those prevailing before the Duty was imposed.

The right hon. Gentleman was concerned that the ladies might not like to have their woollen dresses taxed and I am afraid I upset him by suggesting that the ladies did not mind if their silk dresses were taxed because they were all cheaper than before the duty was imposed, and I am very glad to be able to tell him that artificial silk yarn has decreased. [An HON. MEMBER: " That is a yarn."] If any hon. Member thinks that a polite remark, I make him a present of it and hope he is proud of it. The price I was about to say has been reduced since June, 1925 by no less than 25 per cent. It is not going to make the ladies who wear woollen garments very angry if we reduce the price of those garments by 25 per cent. In the case of artificial silk clothes it will be found that they are reduced on the average by 20 per cent. Of course these facts are well known. The hon. Gentleman below the Gangway tried to get up a great stunt about ladies stockings, but what has been the result. In that case production has increased, and the price has come down. They are not shorter and there is no more cotton at the top. Everybody is aware of the fact now that men and women are wearing garments of this delicate material which is giving employment to British men and women who otherwise would not be at work.

In conclusion I wish to say that I agree with my right hon. Friend who spoke from the Front Opposition Bench. If we wanted merely to secure an election point we would want this good work of the destruction of the duties to go on, but from the point of view of the country we ask: Is it not rather early to come to a decision of that kind? The Government will stand or fall on this unemployment issue. Nothing can save them if the figures go back, because that is the only reason why they have been given control. I will support the party opposite, in any measure of a kind which will really give national security. I am not entitled to speak for our party, but if the party opposite really intend to carry out the principle of the right hon. Gentleman the Lord Privy Seal, to manufacture at home everything which we are importing at the present time and which we can so manufacture, then I believe the whole of this party would be in their Lobby day after day. If there are indeed no ills from this policy; if it is a fact that production and employment and exports have increased, and that prices have come down, I ask the Government what right have they to imperil the livelihood of their countrymen? What right have they to go against the mandate of numerous trade unionists? What right have they to impose their will to the wish of the-Confederation of Iron and Steel Workers given unanimously in 1925, when they asked the Prime Minister to do what he could to keep out foreign goods? Either the party opposite means what it says when it says it is a Labour party, or else it is a fraud, a snare, a sham, and a delusion. I beg of hon. Members to think over this matter. Do not rush into it; do not risk sacrifices for the sake of party advantage. If the gods intend to destroy the party opposite, I pray they will not first make them mad.

The Debate in which the House is engaged this afternoon is similar to innumerable Debates on this subject which we have had in recent years. I may be forgiven a personal word, if I say that I can remember almost all the material with very little variation—and that is no-reflection on any speaker—since 1918. If any of us on this side of the House,. representing as many of us do industrial constituencies which are exposed to unemployment and distress, believed for a single moment that the policy of Safeguarding or tariffs or Protection— under whichever head you choose to describe it—would bring a message of hope and recovery to our people, we should be the first; to support it. But while not making the slightest reflection on the sincerity of hon. Members opposite who advocate this faith we are unable to share their views. We suggest that this is not the remedy for the industrial disease from which we suffer and we are perfectly satisfied that, in the last resort, and it may be comparatively early in the day, it will reduce the aggregate volume of commerce in which this country is engaged and actually add to the numbers of those who are out of work.

I do not want however to deal purely with a wide and general issue of that kind. We have just had another General Election in which it can hardly be disputed that there has been an overwhelming majority for fiscal freedom or Free Trade. Hon. Members opposite made their policy a definite part of their election programme and it has not succeeded at the polls. Moreover, it is perfectly fair to argue that, if you take specific centres like Coventry and Nottingham, or those districts in Yorkshire which are affected by the wool textile inquiry, there you have had great Labour majorities or if the Liberal votes are added, anti-Protectionist majorities showing large districts hostile to the policy advocated by hon. Members opposite. That appears to me to be beyond a shadow of doubt.

I should like also to say this preliminary word. I join in the tribute paid to the maiden speech of my hon. Friend the Member for West Wolverhampton (Mr. W. J. Brown), and I entirely endorse his remark that we, on these benches, do not regard either Free Trade, or Tariff Reform, or Safeguarding as the solution of the industrial problem in this country. Hon. Members know that during recent years in every Debate in this House going to fundamental economic problems I have tried to indicate, whether I am right or wrong, that the inevitable tendency must be in the direction of combines and syndicated trusts, and that beyond that, in my judgment, we shall" pass to some social solution in terms of public corporations or whatever it may be. But I recognise that that is not before us in this Debate. What we have to do, and whatever view we take of the industrial future of our country, whatever ideal we hold in economic science as the thing which will ultimately hold the field, we must preserve the common good, we must retain our industry and our commerce, we must do everything in our power to see that when those changes come there will be something of value for the British people. That is the spirit in which I approach the definition of the Government's attitude this afternoon.

What is the legacy to which this new Parliament has succeeded? The McKenna Duties were imposed during the War for specific purposes, to safeguard the tonnage, which was then a vital and urgent problem, to raise a certain amount of revenue, and to deal some kind of blow at the import of luxury commodities. They were continued, I will not say after war conditions had passed away, as we are not out of war conditions and economic problems yet, but they were continued after the War by our political opponents for frankly protective purposes. We pass from the original imposition to this new fact, that whatever view we take about the headings of McKenna Duties or Safeguarding, these are in essence protective duties. That is the only way in which they can be described. They are very high—33i per cent. I can remember the late Mr. Bonar Law making a statement somewhat to this effect, that, not only would they never have been part of any ordinary tariff system in this country, but that they were at a rate which was very high indeed; and going back to the old days of the Tariff Reform controversy, I cannot recall that anything on that scale—at all events, on that general scale—was ever suggested.

Now we pass to Part I of the Safeguarding of Industries Act, originally introduced in 1921, and, as regards that part of the legislation, the subject of a special Committee in 1925, following which Part I was made a more lasting part of the fiscal machinery of this country. These again are protective duties, applied to certain articles which are regarded as essential to national security, and it is giving away no part of our case this afternoon to admit that so far they have, in controversy at all events, occupied nothing like the part of the field which has been occupied by the other duties. Then the next stage is the steady dribble, if I may so describe it, of these Safeguarding Duties, applied over a term of years, following a principle in troduced in 1921 and modified, if X remember rightly, in 1925, by a procedure which replaced the old simple-Resolution of the House of Commons and while sending these applications, as they had been sent before, to Committees of the Board of Trade, then incorporated the duties in Finance Acts. So to-night, for the purposes of our Debate, we have -an accumulation of McKenna Duties, of Part I of the Safeguarding of Industries Act, and of a certain number of ordinary Safeguarding Duties on lace and other commodities, introduced right down to 1928; and then, of course, within the ordinary Budget field—and that covers the McKenna Duties—there are the burdens on silk and artificial silk, which were introduced by my right hon. Friend's predecessor in office, originally for revenue purposes, but given a protective turn as the legislation was driven through this Chamber by the large majority at his command.

That is a simple picture of the field we have to survey. To-morrow, when my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer speaks—and even now, I am perfectly sure, he is polishing his pungent periods for the special benefit of his predecessor in office—he will deal with the whole problem and particularly with the McKenna Duties, and those parts of this controversy which fall within the Budget; but, on the question of Government policy, this is perfectly plain, that taking these Silk Duties, the McKenna Duties, and the Budget Duties, there is no hon. Member on that side of the House who could expect us for one moment to make any statement in anticipation of the Finance Bill of next year. That must be reserved for the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the Government of the day, and we yield not an inch of ground upon that.

Now what do we say regarding the ordinary Safeguarding Duties? We have always opposed those Duties as a party in the House of Commons. It is perfectly true that individual Members from certain constituencies have not taken that line, but as a party our attitude has always been in opposition. Even in 1924, when the right hon. Gentleman opposite came with 200 majority in this Chamber, they had not a majority of the electors of this country. It would be fair to argue that even in those circumstances they had not a mandate for Protection. As regards these Safeguarding Duties, no one can complain outside that this party has not consistently opposed them in the House of Commons, and hon. Members on the Liberal benches have mainly opposed them. There is, therefore, over that field of effort the amplest notice of our intentions and attitude in a problem of this kind.

Those Duties begin to expire, in the case of lace, on the 30th June next year, and the dates of expiry continue, if I remember rightly, until 1933. On that point we have said that we can give no pledge that we shall allow those duties to continue until they expire automatically. We have also said—and I think this is a perfectly fair and reasonable point and one to which hon. Members opposite cannot take exception—that we shall have regard to all the circumstances of the case, to revenue, as it is put in the Prime Minister's declaration, and to the effect on the industries concerned. Those things will be kept before us, as they must be kept before any Government which is trying to discharge its duty, in terms of its principles, to the industry and the commerce of this country. I cannot go beyond that this afternoon in the definition of our attitude in this House.

The right hon. Gentleman has given no indication whether these Duties will or will not be taken off. I quite agree that he is free to take them off, but it is certainty that I have appealed for. If the right hon. Gentleman will not give that measure of certainty, will he at least give us this, that before any Duties are taken off, substantial notice will be given to the industries concerned? Will he at least give us that security?

No, that is precisely what I cannot give to the House. The right hon. Gentleman—and I make no complaint regarding his request—presses me to go beyond the declaration which I have just made. What I have said to the House now is a simple explanation or summary of the pronouncement which was made by the Prime Minister in his first speech on the Address. Beyond that, the Government cannot go, and accordingly I cannot give the slightest guarantee of the kind that the right hon. Gentleman suggests.

Let us turn now to the ordinary field of these Safeguarding Duties and ask ourselves one or two simple questions. Hon. Members have made a great deal in debate of what they regard as the improvement in employment, the fall in prices, the stability of the progress which, in their view, those Duties have achieved. There has been a very detailed consideration of the general field of Safeguarding by the Balfour Committee, and I suggest to the House that the only deduction which can be made from the review of that Committee is this, that you have had far too limited a field in which to pronounce on a fiscal problem at all. You have had a field in which there is great contradiction, and great confusion of issues, and you really cannot say at this stage that they have influenced our industrial situation to any appreciable extent. Do let us put this controversy in proper proportion. In the strictly Safeguarding field hon. Members will recall that you are dealing only with one half of one per cent. if you relate it to the £600,000,000 of manufactured exports of this country. That is the total field that you have covered.

Far be it from me, and from any hon. colleague on these benches, to belittle the importance of any of these trades, in Nottingham or in any other safeguarded centre. I make no suggestion of that kind, but hon. Members constantly argue in speeches in the country, and even in this House, that you have here got some great proof of the success of tariffist schemes, which presumably could be applied to a very much wider field, if ever they had got a mandate for that purpose from the electors, or the House of Commons had given them the chance. That is not the state of affairs. There is a very limited and a very narrow field of these purely Safeguarding Duties, and the Balfour Committee, after a prolonged review, while in some respects sympathetic to the attitude of hon. Members opposite, nevertheless conclude that at this stage no safe deductions can be drawn.

But the Balfour Committee went on to raise very important considerations, some of which were quite plainly in the mind of my right hon. Friend, my predecessor in office, this afternoon when he was making what I now recognise, from my inside experience of a few weeks, as the more difficult part of his case. After all, have hon. Members opposite made up their minds what they really intend in this field? Is it part of their case that these duties are some day to be of the nature of a bargaining power against the tariffs of the other nations of the world? They have very little encouragement along that line. I suggest to Parliament to-night that before you could have anything of real bargaining power, as world conditions of trade run to-day, you would require to have Protection on a scale that would not be tolerated by this country and which, as I understand it, hon. Members opposite do not themselves suggest.

Then there is also the suggestion that this might be of value by way of a countervailing effort against the low wages in European countries or wherever our competitors may be found. On that point also very little encouragement is to be found in this Report. After all, surely it is ordinary and elementary economic truth that you are not going to do very much to improve the conditions of labour in any country in the world with which we are doing business by excluding their goods from these shores or reducing the aggregate volume of trade, which, I should have imagined, would only have aggravated the disease. Are you going to plead, or is there any suggestion that it should be pleaded, that this policy has some relationship with European conditions, and those depreciated exchanges and the other conditions with which we were familiar after the War? It is recognised that steps which have been taken in Europe within recent years in the stabilisation of these exchanges have been so effective that an export advantage which was really in the nature of a bounty based upon a depreciated exchange has been corrected or has very largely passed away, and that is not really a valid or material consideration to put before these Safeguarding Committees. So when we take one of these tests after another, we do not find they have any practical validity, in world trade, in the real nature of the problem before us, because, of course, the problem is very much bigger than the handful of industries which has so far been protected by devices of this kind.

Let us come to a very much more important ground. I was glad that the hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft), who is always so great an enthusiast in this campaign, referred to the Committee's Report on the Yorkshire Wool and Textile Industry. I put it to hon. Members opposite —and they appointed the Committee— that they have got from that Committee on a large industry a Report which, while it is in favour of a duty, hedges that recommendation about with so many and so important qualifications, that I do not believe that the party opposite would have applied the duty if they had remained on this side of the House. After all, what does the Report say? First of all, for all practical purposes, it takes a section of the industry and says that you must confine the recommendations to that. It indicates that another section of the industry, which it does not recommend for a duty must be rolled in because it is administratively impossible for the Customs to keep that part of the industry outside. This is a preposterous situation, touching the lives of hundreds of thousands of our fellow-men, that they should roll it in simply on the grounds of administrative difficulty, and not on the merits of the case.

But let us come to the real charge against this procedure. Surely it is this. First of all, they point out the strict limitations of the eight conditions in the White Paper under which we have been operating, and they say, "We are not allowed to look at the effect on the consumers, and we cannot look at the problem of possible reprisals in other markets of the world." There are two sets of considerations excluded by this Committee. They recognise that they must leave these considerations out, and they use words that I think it is not unfair to say, indicate that, if it had been open to them under the eight conditions to take these factors into account, in all probability this duty would not have been recommended. While that is true of a major industry of that kind, those factors have been with us in all these types of Safeguarding since the War and in the duties that hon. Members opposite have imposed.

I would remind the House also that in the great majority of these industries you have no statistical information on which you can pronounce a judgment in the field of wages or prices. The one duty on which you have information in regard to the number of workers employed, is the Lace Duty. How can you build a tariff in this country on those lines? These Committees themselves have to tell you that you have not the material in what is regarded as the most essential consideration, employment, in these eight heads in the Safeguarding of industries procedure.

Why does the right hon. Gentleman tell us that lace is the only industry?

That is the statement of the Ministry of Labour. It is the only industry in which you have anything like complete statistics on that point. I suggest that on these and other grounds we will be entitled, entirely in the national interest, not to pursue this policy.

I want to turn to another part of my right hon. Friend's speech. It is very difficult not to entangle this controversy about Safeguarding and the McKenna Duties with the great problem of Imperial Preference. I remember the speech which was made a few days ago —and which was widely reported—by the right hon. Gentleman the late Minister of Health, and more particularly those replies which he gave to questions as to the exact meaning of his proposals. I trust that I do the right hon. Gentleman no injustice when I say that he steered clear of a protective duty on food-stuffs arriving in this country, and even of a general tariff. As I understood the scheme, it came down to a proposal for a closer relationship with other parts of the Empire as a possible basis for a programme of Empire trade.

One personal word may be forgiven. Looking back over 11 brief years in this House, I have noticed that there has been a very great change in the attitude of the parties towards the whole problem of Empire development. That, I think, is beyond dispute. Hon. Members opposite will not deny that many of my colleagues on this side of the House have taken an earnest part in schemes designed to link us more closely with other parts of the Empire, and I make no claim for monopoly of interest in that department on our side of the Chamber. I thought that it was a fair deduction from the speech of my right hon. Friend, my predecessor in office, this afternoon that he was thinking, whether he said it or not, of Safeguarding in connection with a great extension of Imperial Preference, which, after all, could really only come if you had a tariff on a widely developed general scheme in this country; and of course many advocates of Safeguarding have indicated that this is part and parcel of their plans. I venture to say a few words very earnestly in the light of four or five weeks' experience of this department, one of the most important departments in this country.

Let me say a word or two about the possible influences of a tendency of that kind. Here we are at the moment confronted by a new American tariff. There is a wide discussion of the possible effects of that tariff in Canada. We are also interested in the terms of the Trade Commissioners Report of 1926 on Canada as a possible market for our goods. We know that, taking the pre-War year 1912, and going right down to 1928, there has been a vast development of American penetration in Canada in, for example, the heavy industries, and we have made little or no progress, whatever form of test we take. That is one side of the problem. At the same time, on the other side of the world we have this controversy in Australia and the statement of the Australian Prime Minister that there may be an alteration in the Australian tariff which will assist this country; and side by side the Report of the Economic Mission to Australia, of which Sir Arthur Duckham was Chairman. I ask any hon. Member if that is a report in favour of Protection? The central consideration which that report emphasises is that Australia has far more to gain by personal and industrial relationship, and less by Preference, bounties, and of those artificial devices which are introduced into the commercial system. There are, of course, the other parts of the British Empire in which also you can aim constructively towards closer relationship.

I do not go beyond that this afternoon, because I am not dealing with any policy or programme, but I am only stating the case. We propose to do everything in our power to consider matters of that kind and to make these closer relationships with other parts of the Empire valuable to our industrial life. It is true that the Empire takes between 40 per cent, and 50 per cent, of our commodities to-day. But that would not lead me into the doctrine of self-sufficiency either in this country or within the Empire. It must be part of our general effort more successfully to appeal to world markets, because we have to look to all lands, within and outside the Empire, and remember this fact, that while we enjoyed about 13 per cent, of the export trade of the world before the War, we enjoy to-day probably only about 11 per cent., and when this is translated into terms of goods, commodities and services, it affects the employment of a very substantial number of our people. There is nothing inconsistent in that policy with our programme. I believe that these ideals will be hindered if we degenerate into a growing tariffism in Great Britain, and we are only beginning to understand the possible repercussions and replies in other parts.

I would add only one word in conclusion, and I add it to-night because I believe it to be of importance to every Member of this House who is an optimist about British trade. In the last few weeks I have been in consultation with employers, leading industrialists, and with representative trade unionists. I have been greatly impressed by this fact. They have returned from Empire markets and from world markets, and they say that there is probably nothing which is doing more harm than the feeling of defeatism and despair which is fostered by large numbers of people who ought to know a great deal better. They have told me of the impression which has been made, and of orders which would have been placed in this country but for the feeling that we should not be able to fulfil them; and these orders go either to the United States or to some other country. It is our duty to a million and a quarter of our fellow men who are unemployed to guard against a tendency of that kind.

When we were still in Opposition I regarded it as an elementary point in economic debates to allude to the perfectly marvellous things this country had done economically during the War. We are far too near to the crisis to appre- ciate the economic magnitude of our contribution, but we do recall that during six years, from 1914 to 1920, this country poured out an expenditure which far exceeded that of the whole of the preceding two and a quarter centuries. We have built up an enormous debt. We had to make great sacrifice. The industrial system bent under that strain, but did not break. Will any hon. Gentleman suggest to me that the economic method which showed itself capable of so great a resistance in the crisis of the War is going to fail us in the time of peace? We do not yield to any hon. Members our belief that a great and fundamental change in our industrial system is necessary, but we do say that no future industrial system, whether collectivist or individualist, or a mixture of both, has any chance at all in this country if we are going to have defeatist propaganda of that kind.

Therefore, I am taking this, the first public opportunity in the new and difficult office to which my right hon. Friend has called me, to voice, with the help of the publicity which speeches on the Floor of this House acquire, an appeal to all of us to resist that tendency, and to do everything in our power to convince our friends abroad that we can fulfil our orders and that our wares are as good and as valuable as those of any competing country. Later in the Debate hon. and right hon. Members on this side will put other parts of our case. We take our stand in resistance to all these tariffist devices as not contributory to the aggregate volume of world trade which, without neglecting our home markets must always be a very important consideration. So far as we can make it, the contribution we shall offer in succeeding years will be a contribution not to fiscal restriction but to fiscal freedom.

I am sure the House has enjoyed the speech from the President of the Board of Trade to which we have just listened, and I am sure that the concluding portion of his speech, with its compliments to our country, will not be an appeal in vain. But I do wish the right hon. Gentleman had been a little more lucid as to exactly what the Government propose to do in the matter of Safeguarding Duties. There is nothing worse for trade or industry than uncertainty, and while the right hon. Gentleman said this afternoon that they had always opposed the Safeguarding Duties as far as I could gather from his speech he did not say they were going to repeal them at once, or within any stated period, but that they were going to examine the state of the industries and various other contingencies which have not yet arisen. That is why I am so much afraid that a state of doubt will arise, which creates in all trades and industries that sort of paralysis which is almost the worst thing that an industry can be up against. This afternoon I do not want to wander over a wide field of debate, but to concentrate on two or three matters which have come under my observation with regard to these protective duties, whether they be McKenna Duties or Safeguarding Duties or any other class, and I appeal for an early decision from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, so that the country may know exactly how things stand.

The county of Kent, from which I come, is the greatest producer of hops in this country, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the late Government, in his Budget speech 4 years ago, announced that he proposed to impose a duty on imported foreign hops, and that it was frankly a protective duty. If that duty, which amounts to £4 per cwt., were removed, the industry, which means a great deal to certain parts of the country, would be brought into such a dangerous position that I believe it would become bankrupt altogether. There has been a considerable reduction in the consumption of beer and the demand for hops is not so great. When we are desirous of assisting agriculture in this country, we must remember that hop growing employs more men per acre than any other branch of agriculture. The Chancellor of the Exchequer may say that the growers of hops are few in number and that practically all of them are political opponents of his —which shows their good sense—and therefore that this duty, which vitiates the principles of Free Trade, does not much matter. I would like to remind him of the benefits of the visit to the country of the tens of thousands of people who go out of London every autumn for the hop-picking harvest. They are men, women and children whose only hope of enjoying the fresh air and the wide skies of the countryside is to take part in the hop-picking harvest. I hope he will consider that 'aspect of the question, and also allow me to send him particulars of the position in the industry in order that he may reconsider his decision—for such I understand it to be—to abolish this duty. As regards the consumers of beer, the imposition of this duty does not make the slightest difference to them. The point of view of the consumer is often put by Free Traders, but the duty on the quantity of hops used does not affect the price of beer, even if that particular point appealed to the right hon. Gentleman, which I do not believe it does.

The other industry which I wish to touch upon, shortly, is one which has been set up in my own neighbourhood and has grown and developed purely under Protection. It is, in a way, complementary to agriculture, and it employs nearly twice 'as many men in the winter as it does in the summer. I should like to have had the opportunity of giving the name of the industry and stating exactly the financial position, but the managing director of the firm has asked me to treat his letter as confidential. I have written to ask him if I could send a copy of it to the Chancellor of the Exchequer before he comes to a decision as to whether or not he will remove the duty on this particular industry. Many hundreds are employed in this industry in the winter who find work on the land in the summer months, and it is of great value in enabling men who would perhaps be out of work to earn good money in the winter. The managing director informs me that if this duty is removed either they will have to close down their business altogether or else they will have to reduce wages, because they cannot compete with the dumping of these surplus goods from the United States of America or the Continent of Europe. It seems to me to be absolute madness to say, on the one hand, that you are doing all you can to reduce unemployment, and, on the other hand, by removing these duties to take the very best steps you can to create unemployment.

7.0 p.m.

I listened the other day to the Lord Privy Seal talking about his great schemes of guarantees. We heard how much was to be spent on Liverpool Street Station. The sum varied between £85,000,000 and £7,000,000. I suppose the difference between £85,000,000 and £7,000,000 does not make much difference to the hon. Baronet the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, but it does mean a good deal to the Money Market, especially when it seems that the Government are prepared—at least I under stand they are prepared—to throw away some £18,000,000 which they are receiving in revenue to-day, and, at the same time, run an excellent chance of increasing unemployment. One has to consider, also, the wider aspects of the case, on which the right hon. Gentleman touched in his speech. There is the question of what effect this uncertainty is going to have in the City. Will anybody in their senses subscribe to securities or a new loan for the development of these industries when this uncertainty is hanging over them? Then there is the effect on the Money Market generally. The effect of borrowing large sums, or guaranteeing the interest on loans, must in the end amount to inflation, and any hope of reducing the heavy burden imposed on this country by the payment of interest on War Loans by a process of conversion must be put off to the almost indefinite future. Instead of continuing to provide valuable money with out doing the least harm to anybody in the country, the schemes the Government are putting forward will lead to un certainty and to that feeling of lack of confidence of which the right hon. Gentle man was so eloquent, and that is one of the things which we most sincerely want to avoid. The Chancellor of the Exchequer is, of course, perfectly justified, from a Parliamentary procedure point of view, in saying that he cannot anticipate the Budget, which is some nine months off. I can understand that point of view. But in the meantime I am convinced that that feeling of uncertainty is drying up any tendency to develop in any of those industries which are at this moment protected. I agree with the hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft), who said that, from a party point of view, it would probably be a good thing if the present Government dropped all these protective duties and thousands of people were thrown on the labour market. I think he is right, and that from a purely party point of view it would be a benefit to the Conservative party if the Government were to abolish all Safeguarding Duties. But I am quite certain that, from the point of view of the country and of finding employment for the million or more who are at present unemployed, such a policy would be absolutely disastrous.

My final words are these: I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman and his advisers not to take a hard and fast line about this problem and not to decide purely on the theory of Free Trade or Protection, because we have really advanced beyond that now. The old arguments which one used to hear 20 years ago, when I first stood for this House, while they are still cogent, are not decisive to-day. When I listened this afternoon to the speech of the right hon. Member for South Molton (Mr. G. Lambert) I thought we had gone back 20 years in this controversy. I forget the exact moment when he left this House, but it seemed to me as if he had been asleep ever since. But I digress from my appeal. I do ask the right hon. Gentleman to encourage people to come and see him on this problem and to weigh each of these cases purely on its merits, and not to decide on the question whether this or that duty vitiates the principle of Free Trade, but on the principle whether it is good for the country and for employment or not,, and, if he confines himself to that side of the question, he will find that he will have to change his views.

One of the interesting parts of this Debate is the recognition on the Conservative benches and by every Conservative speaker that the time has come for the State to interfere more and more with industry. After all, it is very largely a question of point of view. If you come to this House for tariffs you are asking for State interference, asking that the State should come into industry and see how it can help industry. We on these benches realise that at last the Conservatives are beginning to recognise that you cannot leave industry to go along exactly as it likes, especially when unregulated private enterprise has produced the muddle we are in at the present time. I represent in this House one of those areas that have been devastated by unemployment and in regard to which a certain section of the Conservative party —though it is interesting to see not all— have continually urged that the only way to deal with the situation was the imposition of Safeguarding Duties. I heard most of the Debate this afternoon, and have been waiting for a speaker to get up and urge that Safeguarding Duties should be placed on imported iron and steel, as was so strongly urged before the General Election. I am one of those who believe there is no Revelation about this question of tariffs, and that the matter has to be judged largely on the merits of the industry itself. I believe also that in judging the case all the relevant factors should be taken into consideration. When any Conservatives speak on this question of tariffs they speak of it from the point of view of employment for a dividend, and with a graceful gesture they say that of course the workers will benefit by more employment.

What seems to me a helpful point was the promise made in the King's Speech of a full and frank inquiry into the whole of the relevant factors concerning the iron and steel industry, which is in such a terrible condition at the present time. I am perfectly convinced that, if you take the iron and steel industry more or less as a test case, you will see exactly to what extent this tariff question is a glorified panacea and how little it can touch the very roots of the industry. I am glad that we have this tariff question raised about the iron and steel industry, because it gives us on these benches an opportunity of saying that, if the industry is in the condition in which we know it to be, then the inquiry must go down very much deeper than the employers' side. What is the position of this iron and steel industry, which is one of the depressed trades and which the Lord Privy Seal pointed out was responsible for a very large section of the unemployment with which he has to deal % We are told that the iron and steel industry cannot flourish because we are importing very much more than before the war. That is true in pounds sterling, but it is also true that we have reversed the process that took place before the War and, according to the figures, we are not importing anything like the amount of pig iron we used to import, while we are exporting a larger percentage of manufactured steel. That does not get away from the fact that the blast furnaces, even in the recent boom, are very much fewer than were in operation before the War, and that the industry simply cannot get the money to re-equip itself.

There is one fact that astonished me just previous to the General Election. It was when we had a little boom, as it were, in Middlesbrough and on the North-East coast. The local papers pointed out that manufacturers were actually refusing orders. That is to say, at a time when manufacturers were begging for tariffs, because they said they could not run the industry without them, owing to foreign competition, the Middlesbrough manufacturers and others were actually saying that their orders books were full up for the next six months and that they could not take any more orders. When one went into it there came out the astonishing fact that 75 per cent, of the blast furnaces in that area are 25 years old or more. What is the use of putting on a tariff to remedy a situation like that? The obvious result is that you are putting on a tariff to cover up an appalling state of things. The industry will stagger on a little longer, but it will be faced with the fact that it is competing with French, Belgian and American steel works which have been re-equipped within the last five years. One of the results of the War, owing to the devastation of certain areas, the inflation which followed the War and other factors, is that these close competitors of ours have re-equipped their industries with the most modern and up-to-date machinery. It would not be exaggerating to say that, as regards a large number of the blast furnaces in this country, we are in the position of a man with a bicycle trying to race a Ford car, that is to say, a 25-yearold machine competing with the up-to-date machine of 1929. As I say, we were in the position in Middlesbrough of actually refusing orders at a time when 75 per cent, of our blast furnaces were in that condition. I talked to a man who was a managing director of one of these firms. They had put two furnaces into blast and could put another, he said, but they could not get the money.

Is it not a case for inquiry before you put on a tariff? Is it not a case for going right to the root of difficulties of the industry and finding out why it is that our blast furnaces are so old, why so many of them are so small and antiquated compared with blast furnaces and similar plant abroad? It is the fashion for the right hon. Gentlemen on both the Front Benches to say that we must not say anything of our country but what is charming and good, and that we must go round offering bouquets to each other. This industry is staggering under two great burdens. One of them is that during the time when this industry ought to have been bringing itself up-to-date, when it had the fairy gold of the time just after the War, it used those huge resources in dissipating a large proportion of them in bonus shares, in watering its capital, in inflating its capital in various ways and in buying up subsidiary industries of all kinds at the inflated prices of those days. A distinguished economist has said that one-eighth of the capital of the iron and steel firms to-day is water, even after the squeezing out process that has taken place. What is the good of putting on a tariff to cover that up? Why cover up the ill equipment of industry or the inflation of capital? The industry cannot go on working on bank capital; it cannot get the bank capital it needs in the ordinary market. I believe that this industry is more than ripe for complete nationalisation. I believe it is one of those industries that can be nationalised.

Our blast furnaces, small and ill-equipped as they are, are not using their resources in the best fashion. In the area which I represent you find one mill running through a small order and then changing its organisation to run through another small order, changing over from rails, for instance, to some other article; whereas in Germany, under their present organisation, they distribute the orders so that one mill is running steadily the whole time on one kind of work. They have bulk purchase of supplies, which was sneered at by Members in this House. It is a curious thing that Members come to this House with ideas of reorganisation that are 25 years old and ask that we should have an inquiry to see if we should adopt those ideas. Hon. Members opposite are now realising that many of the ideas put forward by my colleagues, instead of being fanciful and extreme, as they thought them, are sound common sense to deal with an extraordinary situation.

Here is a case where an industry cannot go on much longer without State help. It can, of course, make profits if it restricts its quota and gets this House to agree to put on a tariff. It can go on, but it will not do its share towards solving unemployment; it will not do its share as one of the great basic industries on which the prosperity of the country has been built up. Therefore, I welcome the suggestion in the King's Speech to the effect that rather than have any question of tariff we are going to have a radical and a thorough inquiry into this industry. If that inquiry goes deep enough into the subject, I feel sure that we shall arrive at the result that it is not the application of a tariff we require so much as a radical reorganisation of the industry. I should not be at all surprised if in a large number of other instances we could only get at the actual facts we should find that it is not the application of a tariff that is wanted, but the reorganisation .of industry on national lines for the public good.

The hon. Member for East Middlesbrough (Miss Wilkinson) has stated that she is of opinion that the result of an inquiry into the steel industry will not be a suggestion of a tariff in order that we may have a larger share of the trade in the home market, but that what will be found to be necessary will be the nationalisation of the whole industry. In my opinion, if the Labour party were induced to invest their funds in the steel industry, they would very soon conclude that the first thing they would require would be a very considerable tariff in order to secure their investments. The hon. Member for East Middlesbrough complained that the plant used in the steel industry was antiquated, and she drew a comparison between Germany, Belgium and France, where new plant had been installed and new capital invested in the industry. Surely in these circumstances it is worth remembering that the steel industry in those countries is, as a matter of fact, operating with the security of a tariff which protects the home market. Those countries are sending over here their surplus produce, and that enables them to have an up-to-date plant.

I want to refer to a much humbler industry than iron and steel, but, first of all, I wish to say a word or two with regard to the-speech which has just been made by the President of the Board of Trade. I would like to say that if we are to have a Socialist President of the Board of Trade, I cannot think of any Member opposite that I would rather see in that office than the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Central Edinburgh (Mr. W. Graham), who not only always speaks clearly on industrial matters, but also speaks with a clear and logical mind. We believe, from the speeches he has made, that he has an open mind in looking at the industrial questions which he will be so much concerned as President of the Board of Trade. The right hon. Gentleman made some extraordinary statements. He said that he could not see how the industry of the country was going to be benefited by putting on taxes which would be bound to reduce the volume of trade. Why should the right hon. Gentleman assume that if you reduce the imports of this country, and also reduce the exports from this country in a particular industry, that will necessarily reduce the volume of trade? That is where I always quarrel with the Free Trade argument, which seems to ignore the greatest market, the home market. If you transfer the trade to the home market instead of sending the trade abroad, then you get the same total of trade, but you can employ two Britishers in this country where you only employed one before.

I quite agree with the right hon. Member for Central Edinburgh that we should not belittle our own country, but I would like to remind the right hon. Gentleman of the old proverb that " Nothing succeeds like success." I think it is a very good practice to assure your customer that you represent a splendid firm, that you make magnificent goods and all the rest of it. The right hon. Gentleman reminded us of the magnificent effort we made in this country during the War and said: to get the enormous increase in production to which the right hon. Gentleman referred. In the King's Speech there are two statements in regard to trade which have a very close relationship to this Amendment. In the Gracious Speech from the Throne the Government say that they are going to take measures to increase the exports of the country, and that

I want to give one example of what has been happening, and I think it is a good one, because it is one in which the Socialist Government now in power has had a finger in the pie. It is an industry which is carried on in my own constituency, and in that of the hon. Member for South Molton (Mr. Lambert) —I refer to the manufacture of fabric gloves. Under the earlier Safeguarding procedure the duty against Germany alone was allowed to lapse when the Chancellor of the Exchequer was last in office. Therefore, it is very interesting to see what has happened during the various vicissitudes of this small industry. It is an industry which was carried on before the War and existed long before the War. Let me first tell the House that before the War we were importing 2,250,000 dozen pairs of fabric gloves. We were making in this country in 1913 only 250,000 dozen pairs, and under the complete protection adopted during the War in. regard to every trade, we then made all the fabric gloves we required. In 1920, after the War, the home production was nearly 2,000,000 dozen pairs, and we were importing only 300,000 dozen pairs. Now those figures are exactly reversed. From that moment the importation increased in 1921 to 707,000 dozen pairs, in 1922 to 1,500,000 dozen pairs, and our home production of fabric gloves was steadily going down, the figures being in 1921 550,000 and in 1922 420,000 dozen pairs. The duty was allowed to lapse, and immediately the importation of foreign gloves jumped up in 1925 to a figure which had never been equalled before except before the War, namely 2,150,000 dozen pairs, and we were making only 200,000 dozen pairs.

That production went down even lower, and in 1926, the first year after the great dumping of foreign gloves, we were making only 145,000 dozen pairs. Under the new Safeguarding Duties, which protect the industry by a tariff on all imported foreign gloves, the home production has been steadily rising. In 1926 it was 145,000 dozen pairs, in 1927 174,000 dozen pairs, and in 1928 it had risen to 242,000 dozen pairs. The importation of fabric gloves is still at the very high figure of 1,300,000 dozen pairs. At the present time we are making only about one pair of gloves in this country as against every five imported pairs. I say to hon. Members that surely the making of their own gloves is a proper work for British women to do. Is the employment of women in such a condition that we can afford to say that we cannot make our own gloves, and that we are obliged to allow continental women to make our fabric gloves?

I have before me the figures from the Joint Industrial Council on the glove-making industry, and they say that they have the record of 82 per cent, of the firms engaged in the glove industry. In 1925, 82 per cent, of the firms engaged in making fabric gloves in this country were making only 3 per cent, of the fabric gloves used in this country, and in 1928 they were making 16 per cent. Surely the Chancellor of the Exchequer ought to leave good work of that kind alone. We are manufacturing at the present time only one pair in every five pairs of the gloves worn by our women-folk, and this at the time when we have over 200,000 women unemployed. Surely the Chancellor of the Exchequer, for the sake of fiscal purity, is not going to take away this little duty of 33j per cent. It is not a high duty. Surely the right hon. Gentleman is not going to take away a duty which has enabled us at the present moment to increase the proportion of fabric gloves we are making ourselves, and which has practically doubled the number of people employed in that industry during the last three years. We cannot contemplate with equanimity the idea that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will allow this duty to drop, as it will, on the 22nd December, 1930, anyhow, or, possibly, will repeal it in next year's Finance Act.

I should like to quote one statement of the Lord Privy Seal at the very commencement of his remarks on what he was going to do to deal with unemployment. He said: Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), commenting on the Lord Privy Seal's speech, said: Carnarvon Boroughs and he told us again this afternoon that he does not support him now.

The Amendment says that the position of ignorance on the part of the country as to the real intentions of the Government creates conditions of uncertainty which are prejudicial to employment, and that is very true. The uncertainty alone would be injurious, and the attitude of the Government is, in that respect, injurious to employment and the improvement of employment in this country. We were told by the President of the Board of Trade that these Safeguarding Duties were not on a scale large enough really to afford a measure of what would be the result if more were done, that they had not been operating long enough, and so on—that, in fact, we have not sufficient statistics; but, if the duties be removed, instead of being given a further trial to enable the country to test whether they are good or bad, it seems to me that their removal at the present time would not only directly increase unemployment at a time when the Government have been returned to power mainly to take every possible step to do away with unemployment, but that it would be an act of criminal folly. The whole principle of Imperial Preference is obviously bound up with this policy of Safeguarding. If there is to be no tariff on anything, there is nothing on which a preference can be given. If it be the policy of the Government to reduce or remove all the direct taxes that remain, and to do away with all the Safeguarding Duties, it is quite clear that Imperial Preference falls, because there is nothing on which to give a preference.

At the present moment, Europe is being agitated with the idea of setting up an economic European unit to counterbalance the great economic unit of the United States of America, and our industries will have to consider whether this country will have to go in and form part of such a European unit. In my view, the obvious future of this country is as part of an economic unit consisting of the British Empire. We cannot hope for any great development of production in this country and within the Empire unless we do all we can, by fiscal means as well as by every other means, to make our trade mutual between one part of the Empire and another. A great deal has been said, and Lord Melchett has recently put it forward, about the ultimate goal of Free Trade within the Empire. Whether or not an ultimate goal of Free Trade within the Empire will be good for an Empire constituted as the British Empire is, is open to question. I myself do not think that it would be, but I do think that our motto, or slogan, to use the more modern word, ought to be that we will buy from other parts of the Empire all that we do not need to make ourselves. If that were the principle on which Empire trade were run, I believe we should not need to look to the United States of America or to Europe, and I am perfectly certain that we should really conquer unemployment.

:The hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft) made one or two statements which, I think, require a little closer examination. In the first place, he stated that in the course of the years during which the Conservative Government had pursued a policy of Safeguarding, the number of people employed in industry had increased by no fewer than 500,000. So' far as it goes, that statement is, of course, perfectly true, but the hon. and gallant Member endeavoured to persuade the House that that increase had something to do with the policy of Safeguarding. I am going to suggest to the House that we must look elsewhere for an explanation of that increase. In the first place, there has been a normal increase in the population of this country. Secondly, there has been an increase in the number of persons transferred from non-insurable to insurable occupations; and, thirdly, there has been a movement of non-manual workers from above the £250 limit to below that limit. I suggest that these three changes very largely explain the increase to which the hon. and gallant Member referred. I agree that the transfer from non-insured to insured trades, may be partly accounted for by the undoubted increase in the numbers engaged in the motor industry, but I think it is common ground now that the motor industry is not an example of the advantages of Safeguarding. The McKenna Duties were imposed purely for war purposes, and, as we know, the late Mr. Bonar Law stated that they would be removed as soon as the War came to a conclusion. The motor industry has expanded enormously during recent years; it is a comparatively new industry; and, no matter what fiscal system might have been in operation, either in this country or in any other, during recent years, that development would have taken place.

The ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer has himself stated that the present condition of unemployment is not caused by foreign importations, in other words, that the importation of foreign goods has not aggravated to the slightest extent the present amount of unemployment in this country. If that be so, how is the increased restriction of foreign imports going to help us to deal with this terrible problem of unemployment? The right hon. Gentleman, in the same speech, also pointed out that 50 per cent, of the unemployment was in four industries, those of coal, cotton, shipbuilding and building. He further pointed out that four-fifths of the recent increase in the unemployment figures applied to these four staple industries. He then pointed out, very rightly, that all of these industries depended for their prosperity upon low costs of production. I suggest to the House that, if hon. Members opposite had their way, and were able to put an import duty upon steel, they would thereby increase the cost of production in those industries, and thereby aggravate the present amount of unemployment in them. What applies to those industries would apply equally to the engineering industry—you would pay more for your machinery; and, in the case of the greatest industry in this country, namely, that of agriculture, the cost of agricultural implements would be increased.

I would say that, with regard to the iron and steel industry, the solution is not to be found by the application of a tariff. The output of steel in this country in 1928 as compared with 1914 had increased by 11 per cent. The trouble in the iron and steel industry is due very largely to increased capacity brought about by War conditions. Shipbuilding has increased during the last two years and is now 78 per cent, of what it was in pre-War days, and, speaking as the representative of a seaport where a large part of the labour depends upon shipbuilding and ship-repairing, I say the imposition of that tariff would have very detrimental effects upon their position. We want, on the contrary, to make it possible for our ship-owners to compete with their foreign competitors, not by pursuing a policy which will increase their costs but, if possible, by increased efficiency and reorganisation to reduce those costs. That is why we favour the policy that has been adumbrated in the King's Speech of an inquiry into the iron and steel industry, so that we may find out what exactly are the causes of the present depression and what are the remedies that we have to propound in order to deal with them.

The second point the hon. Baronet put to this House was that no figures have been given by any speaker on this side to prove that prices have increased in those trades where safeguarding has "been applied. It comes to this, that if prices have not increased, it must mean that hon. Members opposite still hold to the old fallacy that it is the foreigner who is paying. It must be one or the other. I very much doubt whether, if that view is prevalent on the benches opposite, the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer necessarily agrees with it, because in by-gone days he made this speech. In October, 1909, he said: the "Drapery Times" had to say with regard to the glove industry on 28th July, 1928?

The argument with regard to the increase in price was that the duties had not increased the price of goods made in this country.

The hon. Baronet can take what satisfaction he can from that viewpoint, but he must remember that the small duty, as he described it, of 33 ⅓ per cent, gives considerable latitude to those who like to take advantage of it.

Our objection to this policy of Safeguarding is bound up with our objection to the policy of Protection. Safeguarding is nothing more or less than the policy of gradualness applied to Protection, and we hold the view that, after 4 ½ years of Tory rule and 4 ½ years of this policy of Safeguarding, unemployment at the end of that period is worse than it was when the Government took office—[HON. MEMBEES: " No ! "] The difference between hon. Members opposite and us is that they content themselves with basing their opinions on the number of registered unemployed. We make our calculations not only on the number of registered unemployed but also upon those who are driven to the Poor Law as the result of their policy. I know the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer has stated that he was a Free Trader who believed in Safeguarding. He is not only the most versatile but the most volatile of politicians. Even so, I am amazed that he should have the audacity to say that, as a Free Trader, he believes in the policy of Safeguarding. The ex-Minister for the Colonies has himself stated that he believes the policy of Safeguarding, as put forward by the Conservative party, is merely a slow method of applying the policy of Protection. We believe he will never solve the unemployment problem by increasing tariff barriers. The ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer stated the other day that the Labour Government would be allowed to remain in office so long as it administered and fortified the capitalist system. The present Government has come forward with its schemes for dealing with unemployment. We do not believe in Safeguarding. We have put forward our schemes. The right hon. Gentleman said those schemes have been taken from the pigeon holes of the last administration. There was never a greater condemnation uttered by a Member of the late Government than that statement, that while a million or more of our fellow-countrymen, as we were told on the placards, were suffering untold privations the late Government were sitting in their offices in Whitehall, self-satisfied, and as we are told by one of its late Members, in a somnolent attitude, because he told us their snores could be heard from one end of the country to the other, and this at a time when this terrible condition of affairs was existing throughout the length and breadth of the country. If the Government can solve the unemployment problem within the present capitalistic state of society, we all hope and believe they will attempt to do so. If, on the other hand, they find they cannot remove the social misery, poverty and degradation that exist in our midst within the confines of the present capitalistic form of society, I hope they will go to the people and ask for a mandate which will enable them to make whatever changes may be necessary in order to advance and secure the social well-being of the people.

It seems to me that in his eloquent speech the hon. Member who has just spoken, I will not say got beyond the limits of the Amendment, but certainly diverged into a good deal of theory with regard to Safeguarding and Protection. As I understand the Amendment, it expresses regret that the Government have not stated a definite policy with regard to the Safeguarding and McKenna Duties, and Imperial Preference. I have always thought, with regard to this whole question of fiscal policy, that if the so-called Free Traders could get out of their minds that there is something pre-ordained from the beginning of the world, something of enormous sanctity about the doctrine of receiving free all imports from other countries, and at the same time putting up with very high tariffs against our goods, if they could get into their heads what they in a muddle-headed way call Free Trade, is merely a passing phase of economics, if they could only see that there is no more lack of principle in saying under certain conditions certain duties should be imposed than there is lack of principle in a doctor prescribing a diet of milk and soda for a fever patient and roast beef for a more robust man, if they could get it into their heads that we have to meet practical emergencies and that, after all, it is a matter of book-keeping, and sound commonsense, we should get less passion and less party talk on this subject.

8.0 p.m.

One of the things we have to consider is really what has been the practical effect of these duties which we want to be continued. I should like to say, in passing, that as a fellow-citizen of the right hon. Gentlemen the President of the Board of Trade, I should like to take this opportunity of congratulating him upon attaining to the high office which he now holds —an office which, in the absence of our representative, could not be in better hands. The right hon. Gentleman went into a good deal of theory on these subjects, and a great deal of what he has said was unimpeachable, but what we want to get at is, what has been the practical effect? He said: " After all, it is a very small field of observation and you cannot make general deductions." We are not asking him to make general deductions, but we are asking him what he is going to do about certain sets of duties, and whether he can give an assurance to those who are embarking upon these industries, which may encourage them to develop the industries. We do not want to fall into the mistake of "Post hoc propter hoc." I think that I can indulge in a dead language, because the Secretary of State for India quoted French to us at Question Time. We must not say, because a thing has happened, that it was the result of what was done. There is very little doubt that it has been abundantly shown, in the speeches today, that of all our manufacturing industries the only participants in a steady development both of employment and of exports—which we so badly need, if we are to purchase our food and raw materials abroad—to any appreciable extent, are the safeguarded industries.

There is another point which we ought to bear in mind. It is all very well to theorise. Many of us on both sides of the House are great theorists. But what do practical men say about these things? I would like to tell the House what is the opinion of practical men in America with regard to the effect of Safeguarding and the McKenna Duties. In the March issue of " Anglo-American Trade," which is the monthly journal of the American Chamber of Commerce in London, there was an article on establishing factories in Britain. This was an article giving a list of sites on the river Thames, and the facilities and so on, in order to encourage American manufacturers. That 'article was contributed by a firm in this country, but the sub-heading was supplied by the editor of the American magazine. It said: wrote in the "Times" of 28th May—I have the whole of the letter here—

I think it was written on the right hon. Gentleman's behalf. The right hon. Gentleman was challenged by. Mr. Charles Bhys with regard to certain facts concerning that factory, and an answer appeared in the "Times."

I beg the right lion. Gentleman's pardon—an interview. In that interview the Chancellor of the Exchequer made reference to the fact that Mr. Ford had left the South of Ireland because it was a protected country, and had brought his factory to England. That is true, but it is a little misleading when we are dealing with such measures as Safeguarding, if you are going to compare that with the extraordinary system of tariffs that has been adopted in a desire suddenly to build, in what in practically an agricultural country, a great system of manufactures. These tariffs, I think most people would agree, are not very scientific, and in a country where a great Shannon scheme has had to be given over to German contractors, and largely German workers, it is hardly a fair comparison to make, that that sort of interference with their imports is at all on a parallel with what is going on in this country, or what the people on these benches advocate. I think that that was really getting away from the main issue.

The right hon. Gentleman went on to say that the purchase was announced in 1924 after he had intimated that he was going to remove the McKenna Duties. That is perfectly true, but, as a matter of fact, the price was agreed and the main part of the bargain was agreed upon in 1923. The negotiations had gone from September to December. I think that the facts are, that Mr. Henry Ford had several objects in view. He had, as I think the right hon. Gentleman said, the idea of getting the benefits of the " most-favoured nation " Clause which this country enjoys, and, mark you, continues to enjoy under the system of the McKenna Duties and Safeguarding, and is likely to continue to enjoy. He was quite right. There was another matter in his mind, and that was the approaching saturation of the American market with that type of car. He thought that he would try it out in England. There was still another matter. He was hoping that the duty on motor cars would be regulated on what he thought would be a better basis, because, he said, the rating was very unfair to his car and he hoped either that another system of rating would be adopted or that a tax would be put on the consumption of petrol and not on horse-power. He had all these things in mind, and it is being represented, either by the right hon. Gentleman or by those who support him, that the fact that he did not open his factory until shortly before the General Election— either at the end of April or in May— showed that he was looking forward to the removal of the McKenna Duties. As a matter of fact, I believe that he was really hoping that there would be a new system of rating motor cars for taxation. I believe also that he waited until the benefits of the De-rating Act came into force, and that was why the first sod was cut on that factory site at that particular time. I have very good reason for thinking that, too.

Quoting from the " Manchester Guardian " of 28th May it is very interesting to note that, whilst he stated that the announcement was made in 1924, he did not quote another interview which was with Mr. Jenkins, the managing director of the English company of the Henry Ford Company, an account of which was in the " Manchester Guardian." I see that in the interview reported in the " Times" on the 20th May he referred to the " Manchester Guardian " of the 15th May, 1929, and said that that gave the facts. I read that issue with some interest. As a matter of fact, far from being a disinterested account of the proceedings it was merely a quotation from the Liberal Council's Free Trade Supplement, that illusive well of untruth. The right hon. Gentleman did not quote the " Manchester Guardian " of 11th July, 1924, where Mr. Jenkins, being the managing director for Mr. Henry Ford in this country, stated:

If we are going, out of any doctrinaire devotion to some theory, out of any unwillingness to admit that we have been wrong in individual cases, or in theory in the past—if we are going to scrap the material advantages that we have from these duties, the only things that have been coincident with a real development of our industries and the further employment of our people in all these weary years after the War—if we are going to throw them up, either because we are doctrinaires or because hon. Members think it may be a rapprochement with another party that will enable them to hold the balance, from the party point of view that will be an advantage to us, but it will be the destruction of the Labour party in this country. In the meantime, what is of great importance, it is going to mean privation and dis- tress to tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands of working people, whose interests I believe we all have at heart. I do make this plea, that in the interests of trade we might have some declaration soon, and that when that declaration is made it ought to be made without any idea of what has been said in the past, or what are vague theories, but what have been the practical results. Above all, do not throw away the substance for the shadow.

I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer will not divulge any more than has been divulged to-day. It is quite evident why the Opposition is intent on finding out. The reasons are obvious why they seek the information. They have been told sufficient to-day to give them a definite idea in their own minds why no more information should be forthcoming. Therefore, the debate now largely centres round the question of Free Trade and Protection. I have been sitting in the House during most of the debate and I feel that it is necessary for someone to stand up and declare himself a doctrinaire, uncompromising Free Trader. After listening to speeches on both sides of the House, I begun to think that I was like the soldier; that I was the only man in step and the rest of the regiment were out of step. What is the claim behind all this twitter and talk about Safeguarding? Why is it that hon. and right hon. Members opposite are wanting Safeguarding? Will they say? Will any one of them get up and say why they want it?

I expected that. That is why I asked. I put the question, because I knew that I should get the obvious reply. I want to say to the hon. and gallant Member who has been so gallant as to intervene, that no more stupid fallacy could have obsessed the mind of man than that. Unemployment is not caused by the importation of cheap goods, and I challenge any hon. or right hon. Member opposite to prove that the importation of cheap goods causes unemployment. That is the basic fallacy which I am going to attack. If cheap goods coming into the country is a bad thing, and that is the major proposition in the argument on the other side, then goods coming into the country for nothing would be worse. Would not that be so? I ask the hon. and gallant Member opposite. Would you refuse to take goods for nothing?

Let us follow up this argument a little further. There is nothing like cutting at the roots of this fallacy. If cheap goods are a bad thing, then goods coming in for nothing would be a worse thing.

Would not you open your hands and take them? [An HON. MEMBEK: " It depends upon circumstances I "] During the Election, a lady in my constituency asked me if I was in favour of Safeguarding, and I said "No." She was the wife of a parson. She said: " If you wipe out Safeguarding, it would be detrimental to the pottery industry." I put to her the same question that I addressed to hon. Members opposite, and she fell into the same trap. She was sagacious enough, however, to pause when I said to her: " If cheap goods are a bad thing, goods for nothing at all would be worse." She paused there, and I said to her: " Will you go home and tell your husband—a well known parson in the district—to revise the Lord's prayer for next Sunday, and to say: ' Our Father, Who art in Heaven. Do not send us this day our daily bread, or You will put the bakers out of a job? ' " That is what it amounts to.

Hon. and right hon. Members opposite say: " Cheap goods must not come into the country, because we believe they cause unemployment." Is there a man worthy of the name of a student of history, sitting on the other side of the House, who knows anything on the economic history of this country, who dare allege that it was the introduction of cheap goods into this country that gave rise to the unemployed army in England? Dare any hon. and right hon. Member opposite say that it was the importation of cheap goods that originally caused an army of unemployed to traverse the streets of England. Dare you? Silence. Yet 'this is the fallacy that is being trotted about and bandied about in this House, morning, noon and night. We know, historically, what it was that created the unemployed army in England, and we know that the origin of the unemployed army in England still persists. You will always have unemployment in any country where you deny the right of the people to use the land of the country. I will go no further along that line, but will come back to the theme on which I started. If, historically, you have established a system which generates unemployment, then what canting humbug it is to come to this House and to suggest that by tinkering with tariffs and Safeguarding that you are in any way going to wipe out that which is established historically in your economic system.

We have had in this House a process known as committees for the safeguarding of industries. A committee is set up on the pretext that the members are unbiased people, before whom evidence can be submitted. Having heard the evidence, the unbiased committee submits a finding to the House of Commons. I have had the unbounded pleasure of attending some of these unbiased committees and listening to the evidence on Safeguarding. I shall never forget the unbiased committee which was set up to review the circumstances governing production, wages and hours in the potting industry. Unbiased ! If it was unbiased, I do not know the meaning of the English language. It was biased from beginning end. I visited that committee and other committees reviewing other forms of industry, and I listened to the evidence submitted. To what did I listen? In order to secure a Safeguarding Order in this House, you have to prove before one of these committees that the hours worked by competitors in a similar industry abroad are longer than the hours worked in this country, and that the conditions under which the competitor works in the similar industry abroad are worse than the conditions prevailing in this country.

Now, my dear hon. Friends on the other side, just listen to this ! In every instance in order to get evidence of longer hours, less wages and worse conditions, our friends on the other side had to go to protected countries for their evidence. They had to go to the very countries which are enjoying this heaven sent cure for all ills, called protection and tariff reform. For evidence of fouler conditions for the working classes than prevail in this country. As an Irishman born in Scotland, I wondered what Englishmen were coming to. Open the door of Parliament to this truckling with prices and this Protection in private enterprises, and the moment we do it, this House will become tarnished with corruption. Once you give privileges of Safeguarding or any extra considerations to any form of trade and industry you cannot stop corruption entering into our public life. If there is anything of which we should be proud it is the way in which we have held that in check. We do not wish to see this House of Commons turned into a sort of Tammany Hall, Members buttonholed for privileges; but it will come if we once enter into the process of giving Protection to certain industries.

It did not stop there. On two occasions the late Chancellor of the Exchequer outraged the instructions under the Safeguarding of Industries Act. Under those instructions the recommendations of the various Committees under the Safeguarding Act should come to the House of Commons for discussion and decision, but on two occasions the late Chancellor of the Exchequer over-rode the rights of this House and forthwith appropriated the recommendations of these Committees and made them the basis for taxation in his next Budget. This House forfeited the right to review and criticise the recommendations of a Safeguarding Committee. In view of this Debate I thought I would cast my eyes through a collection of speeches which I always keep by me. They are not my own speeches, because I think the longer politicians live the more they wish to forget the speeches they made in their early days. They would much rather see the ghosts of their forefathers than the black type of the spoken word of their youth. These are the speeches of the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, a resilient, resourceful, brilliant oratorical genius, in his fervent days when he was an untarnished adherent of the great fundamental principle of Free Trade. I am sure the House will forgive me and will think it worth while to listen to a quotation. This was in November, 1923, when the late Chancellor of the Exchequer was reviewing the situation in a speech at Manchester. Naturally in the very citadel of Free Trade he must of necessity deal with the question. He began by asking the question man seemed to think that the only deduction to be made was wholesale Protection all round. Where the mind is not clear on these matters these mixed elements get into the reasoning and you have the hopeless deductions to which we have listened this afternoon. It is one thing to speak about labour and another thing to speak about labour products. Labour products cheap should be a boon to mankind, not a curse, but labour is not a curse to those who are disinherited and have nothing but their labour by which to live. That was the mixed condition of the mind of the late President of the Board of Trade.

Let me recapitulate before I sit down. The basis of the policy, as I said at the outset, is the idea that it is cheap goods coming into this country that causes unemployment. That is the basis. It cannot be defended. Historically it would not stand two minutes consideration, because every hon. Gentleman opposite knows exactly what gives rise to unemployment in this country or in any other country. Even to-day we on this side of the House can defy hon. Members opposite to deny that in any country in the world where you have in force not merely Safeguarding but Protection, —100 per cent, protection, and more than that if you like—in every country behind those walls of Protection you have slums, low wages, competitive labour, servitude of the working class and domination of trusts and combines. We defy them to deny it.

You could not mention three worse countries. I have to be careful when I mention them or I might say something which would not please some of our Colonial friends. Has my hon. Friend ever been to America?

There is a higher standard of living in Australia by far than there is here, and there is less unemployment.

Australia is a constant vortex of strikes from one year's end to another. It is really astounding that men who have grown up to manhood should be elected to this House and should express such views. I really wonder how to approach them. It is no wonder that the Chaplain of this House has to pray for the salvation of the country. In Australia, when it was much less of a nation than it is now, you had men traversing the high roads unemployed; you had men going to Australia looking for work and even the sons of the early settlers were thrown out of work. My Friend boasts about what he knows about Australia. I would welcome him following me and telling this House by what method the Australian Government set to work to stem the flow of population out of Australia when it was an early Colony. They stopped the haemorrhage, as it were, of mankind out of the early colony. Was it by Protection? Was it by Safeguarding? I invite him to tell the House. But they have had Protection in Australia, and the Australians have come to this country and have invited us to co-operate with them in helping them to develop the Murray River Scheme and other schemes of that kind; they have invited us to raise loans.

No one would welcome that more than we on this side of the House would. We are as much akin to the Colonies and the Dominions as hon. Gentlemen opposite; it is as much our desire to see flourishing populations in the Dominions as it is the desire of hon. Members on the other side. But these people have come here and asked us to co-operate in these large industrial ventures in Australia; and what do I find? That the tariff put on to agricultural implements going into Australia has crippled the farmers in Australia in their efforts to develop their own land. That is Protection—tariffs. My friend can follow that if he likes. With regard to America, I throw down this challenge and I hope hon. Members who follow me will bear in mind the points I have raised. I want them to prove that cheap goods cause unemployment and that they make unemployment persist. I want them to prove that historically. I want them to disprove what I am now saying, that every Protective country in the world to-day has low wages, servitude amongst the working classes, domination by trusts and combines, and, what is more, a corrupt political system which I hope will never be seen in England. Those are my challenges to the other side.

With regard to the topic of trade unionists and Labour being extremely anxious to stop the flow of cheap labour, the wild deduction which our Conservative friends make from that is that if you are a trade unionist and anxious to stop the flow of cheap labour, therefore you should be extremely anxious to pitch up a tariff wall—for what? Better wages? "What is it that determines wages? Is it any trick or manoeuvring of an Act of Parliament that determines wages? Tariff or no tariff, wages are determined by the competition of unemployed men to get the jobs of those in employment. How stupid—excuse the language; I cannot resist it—how elementary and how stupid it is for men to come here at this time of day and tell us that they can do something to assist the wages of the working classes when they know full well that even where tariffs are in excelsis you have unemployment keeping wages down! There you have unemployment keeping down the wages of the worker even if they have got nominally higher wages than the workers in this country get.

I would make this point, and this is the real question. It is not a matter of wages in terms of money that is needed; what the worker wants is something higher than that—a greater sense of security, a greater sense of independence, and a greater removal from the overshadowing hand of poverty. We have had four years of Conservative Government, and I have had to sit on the opposite side of the House many a night until really I began to wonder whether 1 was in the House of Commons of England or in an emporium. We were safeguarding hollowware one night, needles the next night and buttons the night after; and really one wondered whether one was in the House of Commons or in Selfridge's bargain basement. This is the pass to which British politics has come—that we have to turn this House of Commons into a veritable assessment room and analyse the various values of articles from ladies' stockings to corsets. [Laughter.] Why do men laugh at this kind of thing? Because it is ridiculous. You cannot laugh at that which is true; you can only laugh at that which is utterly ridiculous. Let us get down to the root causes of the growth of unemployment. Do not let us touch the question of land values. It may be said that the hon. Member for Burslem is a bit of a bore—that he sees only one thing on God's earth, as the Irishman said, and that is land. Do not mention that! I have had to sit in this House for years and have had to listen to gentlemen who do not see what is the main question, who would not waste their time on such topics as land values; gentlemen who believe in Variety rather than verity, gentlemen who go in for all sorts of schemes. I have seen the party opposite play the game of Safeguarding; I have seen it pass this Safeguarding Act and the other, and I have gone back to my own constituency and I have still seen the damnable dreary queue at the Employment Exchange going in and being persecuted by an inquisitor with an examination which degrades them morally and physically. " By their fruits shall ye know them," and intellectually the Conservative party stands bankrupt to-day; on its historical past it stands condemned in the eyes of the country. It comes here with its old hoary-headed arguments about Protection.

The only thing which has caused me some dismay here is that I have not seen from the Liberal benches the old fighting spirit rising and challenging the spirit which has permeated many of the speeches we have heard to-day. Has it come to such a pass in England that England does not possess men of gumption enough to stand up and defend Free Trade? Some men say that we are doctrinaires; and an hon. Member who has recently sat down said: " Do not take Free Trade as some moral principle or moral precept." I do. I have still to learn that God made men to build walls against one another. I have yet to believe that free exchange between men is a curse; but this I do know, that where you build walls against one another there will you find hate, jealousy and plunder. Last week I had to listen in this House to a tender discussion on foreign affairs. How timidly and delicately each speaker on each side of that table handled the various questions involved in foreign affairs. The right hon. Gentleman the late Foreign Secretary did not wish to intimidate or coerce, and my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary was anxious that relationships between nations should not in any way be ruptured, in their anxiety for an equal balance of sympathetic consideration one nation with another.

I ask hon. and right hon. Gentlemen if they have lost all sense of co-ordination, and all sense of correlating what they said yesterday with what they say to-day. They say they are anxious for peace and to consolidate the League of Nations. Do they forget the speeches which they have uttered to-day, in which they speak of the foreigner in a manner approaching contempt. How can they say that they want an understanding between nations, when all the time they are insulting other nations, when they get up here and say, " We are the British and all foreigners must be kept in their places " 1 I ask them to correlate their speeches of last week, expressing a desire for peace, with the speeches which they are making to-night. I ask them not to say one day that they are anxious for peace, and next day give offence to men who have as much right to live on God's earth as we have.

Look over at France yesterday and today. What do we find? Anxiety to consolidate the European countries; France no doubt, anxious to bring about something in the nature of European solidity of trade, not so much for Free Trade as to build a barrage against American trade. But it is interesting to notice that even in France, Austria and Italy there is a desire for cohesion between the States of Europe, something in the nature of Free Trade between those countries. But here in the House of Commons, in the home of Cobden, the home of Free Trade, we find to-night hon. and right hon. Gentleman of the late Government trying to tantalise my hon. and right hon. Friends on this side of the House as to what they are going to do months ahead, and using stock arguments which are worn bare and will not stand the searchlight of common sense analysis. I have my confidence fixed entirely in the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the Labour Government to-day as an unflinching advocate of the free exchange of goods between nations, not merely for its economic results, but also for its moral effect upon society by merging men together in trade. We know why there is unemployment and distress, and I hope that this Government will treat the criticisms to which it has, so far, been subjected at their real worth. I hope that this Government will not allow its hands or feet to be tied by any forecasts, or any questions, or answers to questions, but that it will go straight forward along the line of freer intercourse between the nations, rather than that of binding nations behind tariff walls, thus leading to estrangement and hatred and the war which is bound to ensue from such a course.

There is no one on these benches who will not join in congratulating the hon. Member for Burslem (Mr. MacLaren) on the eloquence of his remarks and the obvious pleasure which he obtained from proving his own case to his own supreme satisfaction. I would only add that his skill as a caricaturist in the Press has entered into his verbal description of the attitude of Members on this side of the House. I suppose the most important speech of the Debate to us on this side has been that of the President of the Board of Trade. We are always pleased and ready to listen to the right hon. Gentleman on whatever side of the House he sits, and whatever position he occupies, on account of the obvious knowledge, experience, memory and logical sequence of his speeches. But this Debate has gone somewhat away from the terms of the Amendment which I may recall to the House. The Amendment regrets the failure of His Majesty's Ministers to make any plain declaration of policy in regard to safeguarding and other duties, which, it says, creates a condition of uncertainty prejudicial to trade and employment. The Debate, however, has developed into one of those old, and as they have been so often described, sterile Debates on Free Trade or Protection, which is a much wider subject than that originally intended by those who framed the Amendment.

I suppose the economy of words and the compression of paragraphs enforced upon those responsible for the drafting of a King's Speech, must lay them open to criticism for what they may have omitted, or for vagueness and inadequacy in the treatment of the subjects included. If that be true generally, it is more particularly so in the rather unusual conditions attaching to the present King's Speech. Many of us are disappointed that our own particular hobbies have been omitted from the Speech, but, at the same time, I think it is not without relief that we realise that it is, anyhow, not as voluminous as its noted prototype—that epoch-making work of fiction called " Labour and the Nation." We are at least spared what one unkind critic of the party opposite described as " a yawn on every page." With regard to the question of vagueness those who have had the privilege of listening to the speeches of the Prime Minister, or reading his contributions to the various journals of the day, know full well that he revels in a sort of verbal " roamin' in the gloamin'." While it may be that this is true to his nationality, and eminently satisfactory to the "lassies by his side"—many of whom we welcome to this House for the first time—it is not so satisfactory to the "laddies" who sit on these benches. It is on account of this vagueness and uncertainty that the Amendment has been put on the Paper. It is true that the Prime Minister has shed a certain flickering light on that gloaming. It is true that that process has been to some extent repeated to-day by the President of the Board of Trade. It is true that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has dotted some i's and crossed some t's. But the fact remains that we on these benches are shrewdly suspicious that the decision announced by the Government is based not so much on political principle as on a feeling of personal vindictive-ness. If it be the result of the first, it is indeed possible that we may introduce arguments to show that His Majesty's Ministers should reconsider the matter. If it be the result of the latter—then, against such, the gods themselves strive in vain.

The Prime Minister stated that he intended to treat the so-called White Paper as a dead letter—and when questioned as to whether he said " red letter" or " dead letter," he replied that it was the latter. The White Paper has had its critics on these Benches, as well as among hon. Members of the party opposite, but our criticisms have been directed, not to matters of principle, but to matters of detail and procedure; and it seems to me that if the Prime Minister carries out his intention of treating the principle embodied in this White Paper as a dead letter, when next he appeals to the electorate he will find that that appeal is affected as disastrously by his treatment of this dead letter as was his earlier appeal by the more celebrated " Red " letter in 1924. My right hon. Friend the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer recently described himself as a Free Trader who believes in Safeguarding, and that very largely describes my own attitude in this matter. It is all very well for hon. Members on the Liberal Benches to taunt us with being inconsistent in this matter, but my recent experience has been that scores of people have come to me and said they were Liberal Free Traders and had been all their lives, but that they were so convinced of the benefit to employment and industry resulting from the policy of Safeguarding, that they had decided to give their support to that political party which included it in its programme. So far as the attitude of hon. Members opposite is concerned, as has been pointed out already to-day, not only have some of their candidates come forward and deliberately included this policy in their election programme, not only have certain organisations of the workers of this country themselves taken the position that they desired the application of this principle to their own industry, but the Prime Minister himself has gone further than anyone on these Benches has dared to go. No 33j per cent, or 100 per cent, for him; in certain cases, complete prohibition.

Many Members of the Socialist party, realising the problem touched upon by the hon. Member for Burslem, of the question of the relationship to unemployment of the importation of free labour or free goods, propose to deal with it by approaching it on general lines of internationalism, to which' I imagine the hon. Member was alluding. That proposal realises that here in this country our regulation of hours, our wages, our factory legislation, and our social services constitute a handicap to our industries in the markets of the world, and they are proposing to go to the foreign nations, either through the machinery of the League of Nations or in some other way, and urge that they should follow out our policy in these matters, because at present their standard in these things is much below ours, in order obviously to eliminate to some extent the handicap under which we are struggling and to put us on a more equal basis with our competitors in the industrial markets of the world. If hon. Members opposite really think it is practical politics and likely to have any immediate effect in the solution of this problem of unemployment, if they really think they will get action of that sort, not only from the nations of Europe, but even from those increasingly important manufacturing nations of the Far East, then I say that they are fondly hoping for something that will give them bitter disappointment and, what is worse, something that will give better disappointment to the unemployed, whose plight is the care and anxiety of each one of us in this House of Commons.

9.0 p.m.

There is only one reason for this policy of Safeguarding. It is because we think it is a system which to some extent is helping to bring back into employment those who are compelled, week after week, to go for work to the Employment Exchange. I am not the person, nor is this the place, to deliver a lecture on elementary economics, but two of the most striking experiences of those who have been candidates at the recent election have been, first, that in spite of the enormously important matters with which the country is faced, a great proportion of the electors were far more interested in the question whether Mrs. Brown Jones should have a widow's pension be-Mrs. Smith Robinson had one; and, secondly, because so many speakers from Labour platforms seemed afraid to advocate any measure which might conceivably be of benefit to industry as a whole because it might benefit the wicked capitalist, the fons et origo of all our woes, the person whom it is desirable to eliminate from our industrial system, and at the same time to think that it is possible to benefit the weekly wage earner without at the same time benefiting the industry which provides his weekly wage.

With regard to this White Paper, whose death sentence has been pronounced from the benches opposite, while it contained many conditions which an industry had to fulfil before it could get consideration, there were three outstanding conditions which were the product of absolute common sense in approaching this admittedly difficult problem, and nobody admits it more than the present Lord Privy Seal, who is responsible for dealing with it. In the first place, if the policy of Safeguarding is applied to a particular industry, is it going to increase employment in that industry; secondly, if so, is it going to increase the price to the consumer of the article produced; and, finally, is it going to cause an equal or greater amount of unemployment in other industries compared with the employment that may be given to the industry concerned? We know very well that those who confine their diet to the pure milk of the Free Trade word will at once reply, " Of course, if you give Protection or Safeguarding to one particular industry, you will benefit that industry, but, as far as the second and third conditions are concerned, of course it will put up the price to the consumer, and of course it will cause unemployment in other industries, because, if it were not so, our whole theory would be wrong." But equally of course that is begging' the question. This is not the time to discuss those old basic theories of Free Trade and Protection. The problem we are up against is this: What action can the Government of the nation take in any direction which can help in the solution of the problem of getting our people back into work?

I want to say a word in conclusion, about an industry which has had the benefit of Protection and which is of enormous importance to my own constituency, and that is the glove industry, one department of which has already been touched upon during this Debate. Apply to that industry the three conditions I have mentioned. The most cursory examination of the conditions down there in the Yeovil Division of Somerset would convince anyone that the application of Safeguarding there has had good results. Never has there been so much employment, never have there been so many orders, present and forward, never has there been so much activity, never have there been so many apprentices going into the trade. In the outlying villages, where the outworkers are one of the features of the industry, I have never seen so much activity, and it has brought the unemployment in that constituency as low as, if not lower than, anywhere else. At the same time, I know of many employers who are waiting to see what the final attitude of the Government will be before deciding to build extensions to existing factories or to set up additional factories. Therefore, if you apply the first condition, it is absolute proof that the application of Safeguarding to that industry has undoubtedly increased employment and brought prosperity and confidence to it.

On the question whether the price of the article produced has been increased, I have made investigations in every direction, and in spite of illustrated Liberal leaflets, which show as large an expenditure of time and money as of economy in accuracy, I find that the price of gloves has not only not been put up, but in many cases has been reduced. With regard to the final question as to causing unemployment in other industries, hon. Members opposite may think that the glove industry is, after all, only a luxury industry. Apart from the question that large numbers of people are employed in luxury trades, I would like to put this to them. When they are sitting uncomfortably crowded on the seats at the Oval, are the gloves used by the wicket-keeper luxuries or necessities? When they are at the Sporting Club challenging the decisions of the referee, are. the boxing gloves luxuries or necessities? If they are luxuries, the noble art of self-defence will fall into the category of one of the blood sports. If hon. Members ever decide to give up their jobs at £400 a year and take on the jobs as housemaids, they will find that many of the functions which they have to perform require gloves as a necessity and not as a luxury.

As far as the third condition is concerned, I have made inquiries in every direction, because I am at heart a Free Trader, and I only believe in this Safeguarding policy if, in its application, it actually delivers the goods; and I am unable to find any industry in which unemployment has been caused because of the application of Safeguarding to the glove industry. If these are facts—and I maintain that they are facts and proof— it is a piece of criminal folly, for the sake of a pure question of political prestige or consistency, for the Government either to take the definite decision of withdrawing or cancelling this Duty, or of refusing —which is almost as bad—to relieve the State of uncertainty of the manufacturers as to their actual intentions. I know that in his heart of hearts the Lord Privy Seal deplores the position, which is not going to alleviate, but will make more difficult, that stupendous task which he has taken on his shoulders, in the successful discharge of which we one and all wish him well.

During the few days in which I have been present listening to the Debate on the Address, one of the things of which I have become aware is the-facility which some Members have of forgetting past speeches here, and the acute-ness of memory of others in reminding those Members of the things that they have conveniently forgotten. I was much amused at hearing the right hon. Gentleman the late President of the Board of Trade asking those of us on these benches who are trade unionists whether we would welcome the importation of cheap foreign labour in this country. That was very strange coming from the exponent of the-Conservative policy, because my mind went back to a time in the history of this country when the Conservative Government were the means of importing cheap labour into South Africa, and I rather thought that the right hon. Gentleman would have done better never to have mentioned that subject, which ought to be full of painful memories for the Conservative party.

We have heard a good deal this afternoon about people who are Free Traders with Protectionist ideas. We are asked in this Amendment to express regret because no definite policy has been stated in the King's Speech with regard to Safeguarding. Those who are responsible for that Amendment, while complaining about the indefiniteness of the King's Speech on this subject, have been very careful during the whole Debate to be very indefinite and had merely tried to draw something from the Treasury Bench by way of questions. If those who are such strong protagonists of Protection had been listening, they would have heard the Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University (Lord H. Cecil) say that unemployment could not be cured by anyone on the Government Benches. He laid it down definitely as elementary economics that the demand for one class of goods came from the production of another class, that is, that work caused work; that no amount of tinkering or scheming could interfere with the economic law; and that employment could not be increased by Government regulations. We are now being asked to believe that because certain regulations passed by the late Government have had the effect of causing an increase in the number of people employed in certain industries—even if we accept the figures—therefore the total volume of employment in this country is greater after these duties have been applied than before. You can possibly tinker with one particular trade, but, as I understand the Conservative policy, it is to apply Safeguarding throughout the whole industry. [HON. MBMBEES: "No!"] If you are not prepared to apply it to all industries, what about those people who are unemployed in industries to which you do not apply it? Are they British or Chinese? Do they come within the pale of your purpose? Have you any responsibility towards them?

This afternoon someone mentioned agriculture. There are other industries which could be dealt with by the party opposite if they were in earnest on this subject; but they are not in earnest and are only trying to draw a red herring across the discussion on unemployment. I have heard it stated from the opposite benches that the iron and steel industry, with which I am connected, is in favour of Safeguarding. That was stated quite definitely by an hon. Member opposite. I want to state here and now, quite definitely, that that statement is entirely inaccurate, to put it mildly. The iron and steel industry, from the point of view of the employers and from the point of view of the workmen, is not at the moment, nor ever has been, in favour of Protection or Safeguarding. That industry asked the late Prime Minister to appoint a committee of inquiry to go into all the facts connected with the industry, so that we should know exactly how it stood before anyone attempted to do anything for it of a reformative or helpful character. What was the reply we got? We were told that this was going to be made an issue at the General Election—irrespective of the wishes of the people in the industry for an inquiry in order to get at all the facts; because there are many facts which have not come to the public eye or ear. We thank the present Government for their promise in the King's Speech that we shall get this inquiry.

Since 1920 this industry has had about 21 per cent. unemployed, but in spite of that fact it is producing and selling as much iron and steel to-day as it sold in pre-War days. [An HON. MEMBER: "Possibly more!"] Yes, and possibly more. During the War the industry was expanded to such an extent that it is now capable of 50 per cent greater output than in pre-War days. That has been possible because of the developments which have taken place inside the industry. The skill and the organisation in the industry and in the individual works is as great and as good as in any other part of the civilised world. What is lacking is coordination between the various firms, and that exists because of the individualism which is rampant in the industry. I heard an hon. Member on the opposite side and another hon. Member on this side claiming to be doctrinaire individualists. This individualism has been given up by the foreigner—given up by the Americans, and given up by Continental nations. The foreigner has merged his individual works and his individual interests into groups. He is coming on the markets of the world in an organised fashion, instead of under the individualist methods to which British manufacturers still cling. To-day they are in the position for fighting for scrap, and the Regulations made by the late Government through the Treaty of Versailles and other causes have placed the scrap market practically in the hands of the competitors of British manufacturers, making it more difficult for us to produce in this country.

When British manufacturers go into the raw material market in order to buy they do not go in as a unit but as so many units, all competing against each other and helping to put up prices. Instead of sitting down as one unit and getting the sellers to gather round them they are working the other way and defeating their own purpose. When we are marketing our goods abroad we want such a system as has been adopted for many years in America. In spite of their amalgamations there are three or four organisations there, but you do not find three or four people coming to market their goods in Europe. If you are buying steel products from America, you buy them through the United States Steel Products Company, which does not produce a ton of steel itself, but is a company formed iby all the steel companies for the purpose of marketing their goods in Europe. They have found that that was the best method of competing with European manufacturers and getting American steel products into Continental markets. We want that to be done here. We want all these scientific remedies applied and proper organisation introduced into the industry before we try to impose any of the remedies put forward by the late Tory Government

I would plead with people here to realise the fundamental fact that no amount of juggling with tariffs will solve the unemployment problem, and I would like hon. Members opposite to study what was said by the Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University when he was telling us on this side of the House about the things we could do. People who have been arguing that the Safeguarding Duties have not increased prices have sent out challenges. Let me remind them of the speech made two days ago by an hon. Member for one of the constituencies in Aberdeenshire. His statement, which was cheered by hon. Members opposite, was that we should not get better trade for some time to come because prices were falling, owing to the gold supply of the world having got into the hands of America. On the one hand hon. Members opposite argue that we on this side cannot do anything on account of the gold question, and forget that speech which was made and was cheered at the time. We are told that the Safeguarding Duties have not increased prices, but a gentleman with the financial knowledge of an expert—he seemed to be an expert—tells us that prices are bound to fall and that because prices are falling trade will be bad. I do not agree with his conclusions on that point, but that is what he said.

In the iron and steel trade we want an inquiry to know if we are on equal terms with other people so far as organisation and equipment are concerned. I am not a doctrinnaire Free Trader. I know sufficient of economics to have no faith in Protection or Safeguarding. I believe in this principle, that I would prohibit altogether goods coming into this country if they are not manufactured under fair conditions. I would make that the test. It has never been the test as far as the Conservative party is concerned. That has never been so, and it was not so when the late Mr. Joseph Chamberlain started his raging, tearing campaign of Tariff Reform. It is an honest test, and it is a necessary corollary of the Washington Hours' Convention which the late Government refused to ratify, and which would place the iron and steel manufactures in Europe on exactly the same terms as ourselves. I want as well an international Convention, which would do something to bring about parity as far as wages and conditions of labour are concerned. Give us that and we will be able in this country, because of our skill and our knowledge, to compete as we are doing even to-day with all the handicaps from which we are suffering, arising from the late War. After all, you cannot divorce your troubles of to-day from what took place during those times. Europe was then smashing up all that it possessed, and you are bound to go through lean years because of the extravagant expenditure that was incurred during that awful time. That is what we have to face. In conclusion, I want again to say that, as far as we in the iron and steel industry are concerned, we thank the Government for giving us the promise of an inquiry, and I trust it will be wide enough to bring in all the factors. Then when we have the knowledge of what our position actually is, we shall know exactly what we are going to do.

The first occasion on which a new Member rises to address this House must always be rather a terrifying experience, but I take heart from two things. In the first place, I have been watching, and I have seen other fledglings try their wings, and not fall to the ground. In the second place, the subject on which I speak is not one that I have learned from Blue Books, Yellow Books, or White Papers. I can speak from practical knowledge as an employer, and as a consumer and as one representing a constituency where I have seen the effects, of Safeguarding and other import duties.

I am connected with the same industry as the hon. Member who has just sat down—the iron and steel industry. I do not want this Debate to run into a simple discussion of that one industry, great though it is, hut I think it may be wise that I should say one word upon it before I leave it. I agree with some of the things the last speaker has said. I agree that in this industry we must have rather more organisation and co-operation than we seem to have had up to the present. I know that movements are on foot in that direction, and I think the hon. Member knows it, too. I believe most earnestly that if the inquiry which is being set up does not include, as well as all the other things which are to be inquired into, the prospect of Safeguarding also, then it will indeed be a barren inquiry.

What is our difficulty in the steel trade? I should know, as it is my daily work. Our difficulty is to make and sell a steel ship-plate at practically pre-War prices when almost every commodity that has gone to make that steel plate has gone up since pre-War days. Wages have gone up, the three-shift system has come, raw materials, railway rates, and local rates and taxes. Almost every factor that goes to make a steel ship plate has gone up, and yet we must sell it at practically pre-War prices—an 8 per cent, difference, to be exact. Otherwise it cannot be sold, and if it is not sold the mills have got to go oS and unemployment is the result.

I remember one hon. Member asking what was the cause of unemployment. That is one of the causes—if you cannot sell your goods at the price at which you make them. Anything you can do to help us make our goods and get them sold will help to relieve this question of unemployment. I cannot speak here of de-rating, because it is off the point of the Amendment, but I do say it is a contribution in that direction. The greatest contribution of all is to be able to run your plant at full time. I wish I could take hon. Members opposite out of the atmosphere of the debating chamber into a manager's room where they would see a chart on the wall with a red line and a blue line upon it. The red line is output, and the blue line is costs. If we can get output up, and get the furnaces and mills fully occupied, that red line of output rises, and the blue line of costs does down. So we can get our commodities sold, and men get jobs; they are taken off the Employment Exchanges and the unemployment problem for them is solved. We want to get down to hard bottom and get to practical methods. We have heard a lot in this Chamber to-day, but not one practical suggestion has come from the other side. I say that on this question of Safeguarding we are entitled to examine the results so far. I will leave the heavy steel trade by simply saying this. All I ask, as one who is connected with it, is that it should have the right to submit its case before a tribunal from which the question of Safeguarding is not excluded. We have the men, the skill and the ability, and if Safeguarding were afforded, there would be plenty of money flowing in for the erection of plant, and we could compete and fulfil orders. I am not afraid for the British iron and steel trade, but I think it deserves to be heard by a tribunal which is able to afford it Safeguarding if it proves its case.

I turn from that subject. It is my particular trade, and it may be said I am trying to feather my own nest, but, after all, it does mean the livelihood of hundreds of thousands of men in this country. The coal trade is closely related to it. If the iron and steel trade had run at full capacity last year it would have used 10,000,000 tons more British coal. That represents work for between 30,000 and 40,000 miners for a year. If it had been run to capacity that would have been a very great contribution towards relieving the distress in the coal-mining industry. Let me say a further word on Safeguarding results. A few nights ago the hon. Member for Armagh (Sir W. Allen) stated that many works had been started through Safeguarding. Some hon. Members opposite, my countrymen from north of the Tweed, asked, " Where are they? Tell us what they are." If they would come with me to the country of their birth I would show them where they are. On the south side of the Clyde, at Inchinnan, a great factory has been started by the India Tyre and Rubber Company which makes tyres. I have a telegram which I received this afternoon verifying the position there:

We have been listening in this Debate to some high flights of economics, but can any hon. Member opposite tell me what harm is being done by British products being used by these companies? Take the motor cars made in this country either by British or foreign firms and compare them with the number of cars imported a few years ago. In a car park a few days ago I examined some 72 cars and I found that 68 of them were made in this country. Who is worse off for that? The note of this Amendment is one deploring uncertainty, but I am afraid that as far as the Chancellor of the Exchequer is concerned, and as far as those sitting on the Liberal benches are concerned, there is no uncertainty in their minds on any fiscal question, and there never has been any uncertainty. If the grass grew over our factories and the number of unemployed rose by a million they would still say it was good for us to buy in the cheapest market. We must face the times as they are. We have heard a good deal about international relations, but in this world we have to take things to some extent as we find them. My opponent at the General Election said that his cure was the elixir of Free Trade applied to all trades, and I said that I agreed with him if he could get other nations to take the tonic.

I have a scheme in view, which I hope the Government will take up, to enlarge a sewer in the upper reaches of the Water of Leith. This scheme is one to dispose of the effluent from some mills and to enable them to extend and give employment to more men. At present these mills cannot expand because they cannot get rid of their effluent. The paper trade in one section of these works had had Safeguarding—the brown wrapping section. They are all doing very well but the white section has not had Safeguarding, and they are affected by the wrapping section because they use considerable quantities of wrapping paper. The one cry in this Debate has been that the consumer will suffer from these duties, but I want to give some practical proof that in this particular case the consumers are not suffering. In the mills for which I am asking facilities to allow them to expand and give further employment, they are buying large quantities of wrapping paper. Before Safeguarding, they used to buy a foreign Kraft paper from Germany at a cost of £25 per ton. At that time the price of the home-made article was over £26 per ton.

Now these people are able to buy this article made at home at £22 per ton and they are quite satisfied. They are getting better deliveries and they are being supplied with a good article made by British instead of foreign workmen. I could give a list of the factories making that article in this country. There are A. E. Read and Company, Aylesford, making 600 tons per week; also Reid and Smith, Cook and Nuttall, and several others at the present time making that article which was at one time considered to be peculiarly the property of foreign manufacturers they are making it in this country and satisfying the wants of the consumer. Again, why disturb an arrangement of that kind? These mills are busy and the consumers are not suffering. I should like any hon. Member opposite to get up and contradict my statement if he can do so. Unemployment has been relieved in this way and the consumer has not been in any way affected adversely.

I would like to say a word or two about the Balfour Committee. At the beginning of to-day's Debate the late President of the Board of Trade referred to the Balfour report on Industry and Trade. I understand that during the course of the last election the Prime Minister said in a speech that he wished to be returned to power in order to carry out the recommendations of the Balfour Committee which he had set up himself in 1924. That statement was very widely reported in the Press. The report of that Committee is not enthusiastically in favour of tariffs but it says:

Finally, I should like to say a word on Empire Preference. Yesterday I did a little Sunday reading, and read two books with which we are all familiar. One is called "We can Conquer Unemployment," and the other " Labour and the Nation." In "We can Conquer Unemployment," from start to finish the word " Empire" is never mentioned. The book might well be entitled, " We can Conquer Unemployment without the assistance of the Empire." In " Labour and the Nation " I read for a long time before I came across the word " Em- pire."Then, on page 48—there are 50 pages in all—after Russia I came across a rather grudging reference to Empire trade. A page and a half out of 50 pages was devoted to the Empire. There are some great Imperialists among us these days, but it is well to remember the prospectus that was issued to shareholders. There is, however, on this page one sentence to which I should like to refer. It is this:

These are the great markets of the future. Let us compare world markets against Empire markets, to see how the Empire markets have increased. In 1913, the total exports from this country to foreign countries amounted to £329,000,000, while in 1928 we exported £395,000,000. To the Empire, in 1913, we exported £195,000,000, while in 1928 we exported £327,000,000. It will be seen, therefore, how enormous has been the growth of the Empire market. If Great Britain cannot hold her place in the Empire markets, there are indeed bad days in front of us. I hope we shall be able to devise a policy together; I hope that in this matter we shall not be disunited, and that the different parts of the Empire may be brought together to be of the fullest possible value to one another in this great British Commonwealth of nations. Almost the first speech that I heard in this House was that of the Prime Minister, and it was the first time I ever heard him speak. He then said something that will stay in my mind. He asked if we could not consider ourselves more of a council of State, and less of regiments arrayed against each other in battle. I would that on this question we could be more of a council of State and less of regiments arrayed against each other. I would that the mind of the House could be taken on this question apart from party considerations, because, while the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the two benches below the Gangway hold firmly to the doctrine of Free Trade, there are many behind wondering whether we can go on. I would that the words of the Prime Minister could be taken literally, and that we could be more of a council of State on this matter, granting protective tariffs to those industries which have proved their case before a tribunal. I believe that, by a wise continuance of the policy of Safeguarding, we can help towards a solution of unemployment. It will not cure it alone, I know; there are many other avenues along which we must advance; but I do believe that any Government which neglects the possibility of this means of helping British trade is not fulfilling its duty to the country.

In the first place, may I congratulate the hon. and gallant Member for North Midlothian (Major Colville) upon his very successful maiden speech? The House will look forward in future to his further intervention in our Debates. The Amendment which has been moved reminds me of a description that I once saw of the Conservative party—that they were not content with governing the country when they were in office, but insisted on governing it when they were in Opposition. That description was applied to them, not by a Socialist or a Liberal, but by one of the most distinguished men on their Front Bench, their former Chancellor of the Exchequer. The Amendment complains that the present position with regard to Safeguarding and the McKenna Duties is one of uncertainty. A good deal more might be said in favour of this Amendment; than has been said, even from the benches above the Gangway to-day. The hon. and gallant Member for Yeovil (Major Davies) complained that very little had been said about the Amendment itself. One of the difficulties of trade in the post-War period has been the element of uncertainty closely connected with tariff policies and the tariff position in European affairs. The relationship of trade is certainly one of very great delicacy. The conditions under which contracts, and particularly international, contracts are made, involve the making of contracts over a long period of time, and the people concerned want, when making their contracts, to have some idea of what the position is going to be, and what conditions are going to obtain, when they are called upon to perform their obligations under their contracts.

What has been the position in Europe since the last War? There have been two elements of uncertainty. One has been that tariff walls themselves have been unsettled. Not only is that a disadvantage as compared with the pre-War Europe, but it was accentuated, and the difficulties were aggravated, because anyone comparing the post-War European map with the pre-War European map will find there seven new countries, with seven new Governments and seven new tariff walls to be negotiated; and not one of those tariff walls was stable—they moved upwards and downwards with great rapidity, and no one could calculate even for a few months, to say nothing of years, as used to be necessary in making contracts, what the position would be. There was a second element of instability. These Governments had never made up their minds what articles they were going to put on their tariff lists. It was virtually impossible to trade in these circumstances, certainly at the pre-War volume, even if the conditions had been otherwise favourable. The conditions were not otherwise favourable. We had been destroying capital during the War itself, and the destruction brought about by the War was aggravated by the policy which has been pursued by every Government in Europe during the post-War period. That has resulted in a decrease in the volume of trade, and in consequent unemployment in every European country.

This is not the only country suffering from unemployment. The International Labour Office returns the figures for unemployment in several of the countries of Europe, and they are astonishing. Germany, which is not a Free Trade country, had an unemployment figure a month ago of over 3,000,000. The other central European countries, none of them Free Trade countries, had a total of over 1,000,000 unemployed. Italy, which is a comparatively prosperous country, and is not a Free Trade country, had a figure of over 500,000. As regards Russia, I do not know whether Russia is Free Trade or Protectionist, or whether her unemployment figures are accurately given or not, but I accept the figures given by Russia, which show that she has 2,500,000 people unemployed. That accounts for 7,000,000 people unemployed in Europe. [HON. MEMBERS: "What about France?"] There are other conditions obtaining as far as France is concerned. I will deal with the question of real wages, again taking the figures of the International Labour Office. Taking the level of real wages in England as 100, the figure for France is 56. That is the situation. You have, roughly, 7,000,000 people unemployed in Europe and over 1,000,000 in this country. The unemployment on the Continent determines the unemployment in this country. They cannot consume because they do not produce. We cannot put our million back into employment because we do not produce either. No one has said a greater truth on this subject than the Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University (Lord H. Cecil). In order to obtain employment what you require, he said in a notable speech, are two things, abundance of goods and cheapness of goods.

All goods must come into the country clearly under one of two conditions. They must come here either for nothing or they must be paid for. If they are coming in for nothing, it clearly means that the workmen of other countries are prepared to work and maintain us in idleness. I have no objection to anyone working for me, but clearly that is not the position. No one has urged to-night that the workmen of other countries are working for nothing. If they are not working for nothing, it must mean that we have to pay them for the goods they send in. If we have to pay them, it is immaterial to me whether we pay them in gold or in goods. If you have to pay them for the goods they send into the country, clearly the more goods they send in the more you have to produce in order to pay for them, and you provide your own people with cheap goods. [An HON. MEMBER: "Sweated labour!"] That is a very curious argument. The Protectionist invariably points to the fact that goods are produced in other countries under one of two conditions adverse to this country. They are usually that the workmen are working longer hours or at lower rates of wages than in this country. The wages are lower in those very countries that are protected.

10.0 p.m.

At the Economic Conference at Geneva in 1927 Mr. Hoover warned the representatives of the smaller countries of Europe particularly that the tariff policy they were pursuing was one which would eventually lead them to the bankruptcy court. He told them plainly that if the States in America between themselves pursued the policy that Europe was pursuing between its different countries American trade would be impossible. The answer of each of the representatives of the European countries was to admit the indictment of the President of the United States but to plead in justification, or in mitigation of their own position, that this country, which had pursued a Free Trade policy for a long period of years, had changed its policy and gone in for Safeguarding, so that our example was being used by the smaller countries particularly to justify a policy which they admitted would lead them to bankruptcy and would certainly lead them, in common with other countries, to a higher degree of unemployment than before the War. I can quite understand the argument being put forward that a country that had been Protectionist for the greater part of its history would do a bad and unstable thing from the point of view of world trade if it suddenly resolved to abolish all its tariffs. It is equally a bad thing if a country which has been consistently Free Trade suddenly reverses its policy and imposes tariffs instead. I can understand hon. Members above the Gangway arguing that that position results in instability, but who is responsible, because if this Amendment means anything it must mean that change over and nothing else. But who is responsible for this change after the War? Hon. Members above the Gangway. Even after the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the Government of 1924 restored the position, they openly flouted it, thinking they, and they only, were to govern the country. Why did they not accept the position of 1924. Why did they change it? Now they say: " These are the people who are responsible for creating all this instability in trade." They had better look nearer home. [An HON. MEMBEK: " Go over to the other side ! "] It would be a good thing for the trade of the country if some of you went over to the other side too.

The hon. Member for Burslem (Mr. MacLaren) put this case on the moral ground. Those of us who were in the House in 1924 remember quite well what the position the House was being reduced to. The ex-Colonial Secretary was saying then that if they abolished the duty on motor-cars there would be 100,000 people thrown out of work. Will he say now that there were 100,000 people thrown out during that year? A week later he was making another speech, and he s'aid, not 100,000, but hundreds of thousands would be thrown out of work. During the lifetime of the last Parliament we saw people putting up cases before the Board of Trade and committees of inquiry, often dishonest cases. In some cases, if the evidence had been tendered in an ordinary Court of law, it would have led to prosecution. We were reduced to a position at the last Election where a candidate went to Stoke and had to say: " Here you have a duty imposed upon pottery." Another goes to Coventry and says: " You have a duty on motor-cars." Another goes to Sheffield 'and says: " You have a duty on cutlery." That is to say, you are giving a duty on the underlying assumption that it increases employment and wages. It may increase wages, but not the real wages of the workers. They are workers for only eight hours, but they are consumers for 24.

The former Chancellor of the Exchequer said, rightly, that the prices had not been remitted to the consumer because he, the Chancellor, was anticipating a fair amount of it himself. What was the object of putting on duties unless he was going to get some revenue? Who is paying? Are the firms paying on depreciated profits? Not very likely. The consumers have to pay. I represent an agricultural division. Why am I not to have Protection? Why cannot I go to the Treasury and say: " Look at the condition of agriculture; why cannot I be protected? " The clear answer is, that agri- culture cannot be protected. You cannot protect it for this reason, and it is a reason which was given quite logically from the Conservative benches by Sir John Marriott in the last Parliament, when he sat as the Member for York.

Clearly, if all this incoming trade and all these imports are abolishing employment in this country, the simple thing is to keep the whole lot out—let us produce everything in this country ourselves. Why cannot we do it? Because, in the first place, you have to go back to food production. Unless you can produce sufficient food in this country to maintain the population in this country, then you must import goods. That is the simple answer. What is the position? I am taking the figures of Sir John Marriott, who was a responsible and distinguished Member of this House. He stated that, in his view, if every acre of land in this country were properly tilled and the best use made of the land, we could find a living for 15,000,000 people. We are carrying a population somewhere in the neighbourhood of 45,000,000. If we went back to the position of keeping out all the goods of other countries we should have to depreciate the standard of living and share what was a living for 15,000,000 people between 45,000,000. Therefore, we must import goods, and 'as many as we can, in order to produce the goods to pay for them. The whole Protectionist case is full of fallacies. Those fallacies are marching through Europe represented by 8,000,000 or 9,000,000 unemployed people.

May I respectfully bring the House back to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade, which reflected the greatest credit upon his assiduity in stating the economics of his superior at the present time. I remember some years ago, when I first made the acquaintance of the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade, that he took a much broader view on the right of industry in this country to seek some measure of Safeguarding in the interests of the workpeople than he did in his speech this afternoon. I am afraid that the influence of the Chancellor of the Exchequer is having a fatal effect on the right hon. Gentleman. Let me bring him back to the principal assertion, and the somewhat curious assertion, which he made in his speech. I hold in my hand the Report of the Woollen and Worsted Committee which was issued to Members of this House from the Vote Office this afternoon. I am afraid that most of the Members of the House have not had an opportunity of consulting this Report. The right hon. Gentleman referred to the Report in his speech, and said that the Report in its conclusions would not, in his judgment, warrant the recommendations being accepted by the House, nor he thought even if our party had been in power would they have accepted the recommendations of the Committee as they stood. That, I submit, was a very extraordinary statement to this House by the President of the Board of Trade. I will give the House as briefly as I can the recommendations made by this Committee. There are the same series of questions which has always been presented to these Committees, and the first question has reference to the application submitted to the Committee. The first question was:

All through the Election, hon. Members opposite tried to evade the question of Safeguarding. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO."] Certainly. In Birmingham they kept as clear of it as possible at every meeting, and when pressed on the point, they said: "On the whole, it must be carefully considered, and time must be taken. The conditions of industry must be looked into, and we must not hurry things. We have great and capable leaders, we are directed by a great economist"—the present Chancellor of the Exchequer— " and in time we shall be told what is the wise thing to do." That is a poor substitute for the practical work of keeping the people of this country employed. In all these small industries people have been kept employed, production has been increased, the home market has been extended, and new industries have been set up. Take the great cycle, motor cycle, and motor accessories trades in Birmingham. All these trades will be immediately affected if the McKenna Duties, and the Safeguarding Duties are interfered with, and the incidental trades will be affected to an enormous extent.

I hope the President of the Board of Trade, notwithstanding his infatuation for the Chancellor of the Exchequer and his pre-conceived economic theories, will think long and carefully before he subordinates the welfare of the people in those trades to which Safeguarding now applies to an economic theory, and again menace them by a further period of unemployment. I am perfectly certain that in the people in the industries covered by the McKenna Duties and the Safeguarding machinery would be the last to consent to any modification of the principle of Safeguarding. I press on the Socialist party that they will not be in a hurry to prejudice their own popularity in the country such as it is, by dropping a policy which has brought great benefits to the large masses of the people. I should like to hear the Lord Privy Seal debate the economic consequences of these proposals with the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I should bet two to one on the Lord Privy Seal carrying his point every time. I back the practical man of affairs against the orthodox economist, who with all his qualities is obsessed with the shibboleths of a bygone age. The right hon. Member for South Molton (Mr. Lambert) put forward once more all the theories of the old Free Trade school. A more tragic sight has rarely been seen in the House of Commons. The right hon. Member is an old friend of mine, but I am sorry that, after six years' absence from this House he should be uttering the old cries and setting forth the old theories which have been blown sky high. It was a sad and sorrowful spectacle; and he has my sin-cerest condolences.

The people of this country employed in industry ask the protection of this House in keeping them in the employment which they now enjoy. In the mass they do not desire unemployment insurance pay. They desire honest, work, and it is monstrous that while we are importing £300,000,000 of manufactured goods into this country every year we have 1,250,000 people out of employment and receiving insurance pay. No orthodox economist or the dreamer of any school of thought can justify such an economic situation. I hope the Amendment will be accepted by the House and I look to the Liberal party to support us. They must have been positively ashamed of the economic theories put forward this afternoon and they ought to go into the Lobby and assist us in safeguarding the employment of the people of this country threatened with destruction by the Socialist Government.

I think that from these benches a very clear statement has been made of the intentions of the Government, and if I may I will recapitulate in a few words what has been said, as it expresses our position and the position which we intend to maintain. The Chancellor of the Exchequer will make a statement on matters which are concerned in the Budget when the Budget is opened. No other Chancellor of the Exchequer that I know of has ever been asked to make a preliminary declaration of the. Budget statement before the Budget was opened. We expect to he treated as other parties have been treated, and the Chancellor will decline to open the Budget before the time comes in the ordinary way. It has been plainly stated that so far as we are concerned what is known as the White Paper procedure is dead. We shall accept no further applications for protective duties under the guise of the White Paper policy; no protective duties which have been imposed under that policy will be renewed; and we reserve to ourselves the right to propose the reversal of any duties which have been imposed if we feel that the interests of the country demand action of that kind. That, I think, is a perfectly plain state- ment of policy which, whether it be agreed upon or no, lacks nothing in clearness and lacks nothing in definite outline.

As far as the Woollen Inquiry is concerned, we do not intend to act upon the report of the committee. Had it been necessary to discuss the report, some of us would have had to call attention to certain very definite facts about the evidence which was given, a matter to which I intend to refer, if I have the time, before I finish the remarks which I have to make.

The hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft) possesses a very picturesque imagination, and some of his figures are the most remarkable examples of imagination that I have ever heard or seen. He did me the honour of referring to a statement which I had made, and as I made the statement, I am going to make it here, argue in favour of it, and show a better method than Protection could ever be for the recovery of some of our industries. The statement which I made was this: that it hurt me to see in our agricultural districts Danish products exposed for sale in the shops and being sold in preference to ours. Can you alter that by a tariff? What is the fact of the matter? Hon. Members opposite believe in the theory of private enterprise and competition. You have that in the farming industry, and it has broken down helplessly and hopelessly. What have the Danes done? The Danish farmer has no advantage over our farmer; he is not a more skilful man, he has not got better soil, his transport difficulties are greater than ouns; but he has learnt the secret of co-operation, he has learnt the secret of buying in bulk, he has learnt the secret of making in bulk, he has learnt the secret of grading, and he has learnt the secret of marketing; and he can sell in our agricultural villages themselves.

These are facts which anybody who has ever been to Denmark and anybody who has ever studied the subject knows as well as I know them myself; and that marketing alone makes all the difference between the farmer getting a fair price for his produce, and the man who handles the farmer's produce getting nearly the whole of the price and the farmer getting a minimum result for a maximum of labour. I venture to sug- gest that by the application of common-sense methods of co-operation, co-ordination and science, you can beat your individual enterprise and your competition every time. We say that you are giving up your own ideas of competition; for after all what is the object of your protectionist policy? So that you shall be removed from competition. We have been told in the past that competition and competition alone can develop trade and make the nation great. Hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite have given up that idea. The only thing they have to learn from us now is that combination ought to be used for the whole country instead of the private individual. Take the greatest apostle we had in this House of the theory held by hon. Members opposite—Sir Alfred Mond, now Lord Melchett, who taught us very carefully to think about the advantages of competition. Now he is spending the whole of his waking life in trying to abolish competition. Right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite have talked to us sometimes about being old-fashioned. They have been crying this story of Protection for many years and the truth has never dawned on them that you can protect' an incompetent person or industry until the crack of doom, and you will still have poor results if you have incompetence. You cannot bolster up incompetence, and make it competence.

I am going to deal now with actual facts. We have been told this afternoon of what will obtain in the motor trade if certain steps are taken. We were told exactly the same story in 1924, and what happened? We were told then that the companies would inevitably go under. We were told that vastly increased unemployment would be caused in the industry. We were told that the price of cars would be increased. Not one of these statements was justified. We do not need to argue about possibilities. Here are the facts. Instead of companies going under, their shares increased in value. An hon. Member opposite shakes his head. Everybody who was in the House at the time, everybody who knows the facts must be aware that the shares did go up. Shall I give hon. Members a few of these cases?

The hon. Member will please have the courtesy to let me give him the information. The Austin Motor Company shares on 15th August, 1924, stood at 2s. On 24th December with the duties off they stood at 5s. l0½d. [HON. MEMBERS: "And the Labour Government were out!"] The duties were off. The right hon. Gentleman opposite has had 4j years; if he will allow me 4j minutes I think I will show that there is hope for the country which could stand his work for 4i years. We cannot be decadent, otherwise we never could have stood the Conservatives so long. The preference shares stood at 16s. 3d. in December. Now I come to the Vauxhall Company—

The Vauxhall shares rose while the duties were off. We were told that if these duties were taken off, we should have increased unemployment in the industry that was 10 times as great as the number of people employed in it. All these peculiar and wonderful figures were given to us without an atom of fact in them, and they were proved to be so fantastic that no one who heard them would ever treat figures that came from the same source again without the most careful investigation. I remember quite well, as Minister of Labour, having to give a reply as to the number of people in the motor industry. Would it be believed that one well-known motor car manufacturer had stated that two and a-half times more people would he thrown out of work in and about his immediate concerns than were actually working in the whole of their industry? [HON. MEMBERS: " Name! "] His name is Morris, and if further information is required, I am willing to give it to the House. I think the gentleman is an absolute genius so far as motors are concerned, but genius is near akin to madness, and when he became a politician, well!

Then the right hon. Gentleman talked to us about art silk. This duty was put on as a sumptuary duty. So little did the Government know about textiles that they ran away with the idea that art silk was a luxury. Everybody knows what has taken place in art silk. There has been a tremendous increase in it all over the world, and when one talks about Courtaulds being an English firm and this duty being required to maintain English firms, is the House aware that the firm of Courtaulds is connected with art silk firms all over the world, that British capital is all over the world, and that if there be one case existing of an industry with interlocking connections, this is the industry? The firm of Courtaulds did not want these duties when they were put on, but obviously they want them now. When you make a present to a firm of a thing that will allow it to charge any price it likes, obviously it does not want to relinquish it, but does anybody claim that if these duties had not been imposed the firm of Courtaulds would not have progressed?

The artificial silk industry is like the motor industry. It is comparatively new; it has a fibre that was badly needed; it is an ornamental thing that could help cotton and woollen textiles tremendously; and the lower the price of the material, the better the chance of the cotton and woollen industries being able to sell their goods. It gives to a woollen fabric or a cotton fabric a finish that is very fine to the eye and naturally attractive, and the cheaper it is the better it will be for the rest of our industries in this country.

We were told by the ex-President of the Board of Trade that 33 per cent, more people were occupied in the lace trade under these duties than before they were imposed, but the figures given by the Ministry of Labour to-day show less than 4 per cent. Who is right? Is the ex-President of the Board of Trade right when he says that there are 33 per cent. more people employed, or is the Ministry of Labour right when it says the increase is less than 4 per cent.? I place my faith on the Ministry of Labour figures, and this is merely another example of the fantastic figures that are given in Debates on Safeguarding and similar topics. [An HON. MEMBER: "On which side?"] We did not say 33 per cent, increase; our figures are 4 per cent., and they are the official figures, so I throw the ball back into the hon. Member's camp and say that the fantastic statements come from their side, just as did the fantastic statements in 1924 that were wrong from beginning to end. Then we are told of the tremendous importance of these duties to certain districts. Where is there a district in which these duties have been put on, where our side have not come out on top?

The hon. Member's party won a seat. How many did we win in Birmingham? Take Bradford, where the party opposite had three Members to our one, and we have now all four. Take Sheffield, where we have won all along the line, while in Yeovil there is an actual majority of votes against Safeguarding. I do not know what has taken place in Macclesfield, but I know at any rate enough to regret what took place there. With regard to the dyeing industry, I want to say one or two plain, and I hope decisive, words. This was a key industry which it was necessary to maintain in the national interest. We put into that industry nearly £1,750,000. In 1924 the Labour Government found themselves against the proposition to sell out for a small sum in order that an agreement might be arrived at between the Germans and ourselves delimiting spheres of influence, and determining what we should make, where we should make it, and where we should sell it. The industry was set up in order to guarantee us against any attack by Germany. We refused, but the late Government sold out. They sold £1,700,000 worth of stock for £600,000. They sold this stock for one-third its value, but the private owners of stock lost only one-third.

I invite the members of the late Government to explain that, and then I invite them to tell us frankly if it is a fact that this merger has been formed? Is it a fact that the British company, after having swallowed over £1,000,000 of our money, has entered into a pact with others which delimits what we are to manufacture, and where we are to sell it? This is rather an important matter. The Lancashire cotton industry is going through a very bad time, and much discussion has taken place in that county.

Not long ago, in the "Manchester Guardian," a well-known Lancashire man made the definite statement that the cost of dyeing certain goods which are made in this country was exactly twice as much as similar goods made in America, with the Americans paying big wages; and the difference in the cost of dyeing these goods is greater than the whole of the wages paid to the men who spin the yarn and weave the cloth in this country. Is there any wonder that we want to know what is being done under the umbrella of these taxes, and what is taking place in the dyeing industry.

Take the case of wool. I have already referred to the fact that in Bradford we swept the board at the Election, and that the people who were supposed to have furthered this demand for these taxes were the people who voted four Labour Members into office, and turned down everybody who was in favour of Safeguarding. If this matter had to be discussed in the House, the hon. Member for one of the divisions of Birmingham would hear one or two things that are strange to him. Some of the evidence given before that Committee as to wages is very suspect indeed. I happen to know what I am talking about in this connection, because as international secretary of the Textile Workers at that time these things were brought to me and my advice was asked. I advised the workers to go to France and get to know on the spot what the conditions were. When they came back and the employers found that the workers knew what the conditions were, the employers shifted their attack to the Germans. Again I advised the workers to go to Germany to ascertain the conditions. Will it be believed that the wage mentioned to these men was the base wage, below which the workers could not sink, while the actual wages paid for the weaving of woollen goods were in most cases at least twice what the men had been told. Yet they had been warned that owing to this competition there were only two things possible, either a reduction of wages or tariffs.

Hon. Members opposite will see that had this matter come before the House there would have been some discussion before the proposed tax had got through. I do not say that the members of the Committee who took part in this investigation into the conditions of the woollen industry did not give a judgment on the evidence as they saw it, but I very much doubt whether they know the facts, whether they know that the majority of these goods brought into this country are not of a type which are made in this country. There are a lot of goods made from single yarn, whereas the custom of this country is to make light dress goods from double yarn. In colour, in make and in other ways they are quite different from what we are making. What Yorkshire employers were asking for was not a duty against the goods which they were making, but a duty against goods which they did not want to come in, so that they might have a chance of making something else. These things ought to be known. We ought to know where we are before we discuss questions of this kind.

What a hopeless thing it is to think that by Safeguarding, or Protection, which is its true name, we can deal with the real problem of this country! The real problem of this country concerns its export trade and its shipping industry. Does anybody believe that by taxing steel we shall build ships more cheaply? Is there anybody who still believes in his heart that Protection is in force for anything except to keep up prices? If that be not the intention, what is the intention? Did not the Yorkshire employers ask for a tariff so that goods would be so much dearer, and that they could sell theirs at a dearer price? Does anyone ever ask for a Safeguarding Duty except for the purpose of allowing him to make goods at a price he wants to get?

Yes, that may be an ideal; but I have already shown from the motor industry how much reliability can be put upon that statement. I have shown from the lace industry how little reliance is to be placed on the statements that are made about it. I have already had sufficient experience to prove that when an industry gets Protection it is able to go on as it wishes, and has no need to put its house in order. All it has to do is to come to a complacent Government and say "Thirty-three and a third per' cent, is not enough. Let us have 50 per cent., and, if that is not enough, 75 per cent."

America is the one bright spot of Protection. America is a Continent in itself. It has Free Trade for a whole Continent.

If any hon. Member believes that Australia, Canada and India are going to take off their duties against us and become Free Trade with us, then he has far more belief in their desire than I have. I should be delighted if to-morrow the rest of the Empire would come into agreement with us and let us have perfect Free Trade within the Empire. To talk of these countries taking off their protective taxes in order to give us perfect Free Trade within the Empire is a dream.

I can give the hon. Member this assurance. Whatever his party has been able to do with the Empire, we shall be able to do at least as much. Let him not assume that the Empire belongs to the Tory party. Neither in knowledge, sympathy nor touch with the peoples of the Empire is his party superior to ours. Hon. Members who have been asleep, according to the statement of one of their number in the last Parliament, with their snores resounding through the country, have absolutely failed to awaken to the fact that the Empire is not a Conservative Empire. Do hon. Members really believe that the Australians are farther from us than they are from their party? Do they believe that the South Africans think less of us than they do of them?

Does the right hon. Gentleman remember what they said about his party?

Does the hon. Member think that the awakening people of India have less regard for us than for his party? Does he think that the Canadians are fonder of the Conservatives than they are of us? Is he aware that Canada itself is the one country in the world where our ideas have met with greater success than any part of the Empire? Has he heard of what the Canadians have done on the lines of national industry and provincial industry? Hon. Gentlemen really ought to try to see the world as it is. They are seeing it through glasses that are blackened inside, and they absolutely fail to realise the changes that have taken place in the world. There can be no real cure for this problem on the lines of Safeguarding. The old idea, so eloquently expressed in this House by the late Mr. Bonar Law, that Protection meant good wages, constant employment and low hours surely cannot bear a moment's investigation? I know of no protective country in the world which on the whole is better than this country of ours. [An HON. MEMBER: "What about America? "] I doubt whether America is better than this country—[An HON. MEMBER: "Russia!"]—and I am sure Russia is not so good. In every other country in Europe except our own, where Protection reigns, the conditions are not better, and the best conditions in Europe are invariably to be found in those countries which come nearest to the Free Trade standard. [An HON. MEMBER: "Which countries?"] Holland, for example. You can also take the Scandinavian countries, and it is well known that the nearer you get to Free Trade in Europe the better are the conditions. If hon. Members opposite will not look at the facts, I cannot help it. I am doing my best to impart as much information as I can in the limited time at my disposal.

How is Protection going to help the country? There is no industry in this country so important from an exporting point of view as the cotton trade. What can Protection do for the cotton trade? How can you improve the position of that basic trade by Protection? There is scarcely a man in the Lancashire cotton trade who does not believe that you can do a great deal of harm to the cotton trade by Protection, because you would be sure to increase the cost of machinery and carriage by Protection. We are going to have an investigation into the cotton trade. We want to know what has been done with dyes, an industry which has possibly thrown thousands of Lancashire weavers out of employment. Those are questions which are being asked in Lancashire. We cannot live on buttons and gas mantles. I am sorry that my time has now run out, but I hope that when the Vote is taken this question will be decided in favour of the Government policy.

Motion made, and Question, "That the Debate be now adjourned," put, and agreed to.— [Captain Wallace.]

Debate to be resumed To-morrow.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

Adjournment

Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."— [Mr. Kennedy.]

Adjourned accordingly at One Minute before Eleven o'Clock.