House of Commons
Tuesday, July 9, 1929
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
World Peace
I beg to present a petition from 17,800 women voters in Bolton praying that this Honourable House will implement all its efforts for world peace by the fullest use of the Kellogg Pact and the Optional Clause.
Private Business
Private Bills [ Lords ] (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That in the case of the following Bills, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, which are applicable thereto, have 'been complied with, namely:
London Electric, Metropolitan District, and City and South London Railway Companies Bill [ Lords. ]
Stoke-on-Trent Extension Bill [ Lords. ]
Sutton District Waterworks Bill [ Lords. ]
London Electric, Metropolitan District, and City and South London Railway Companies Bill [ Lords ],
To be read a Second time.
Stoke-on-Trent Extension Bill [ Lords ],
Pursuant to Standing Order of 8th May, 1929, read a Second time, and committed.
Sutton District Waterworks Bill [ Lords ], To be read a Second time.
Provisional Order Bills (Standing Orders applicable thereto complied with),
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That in the case of the following Bills, referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders, which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:
Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (No. 11) Bill.
Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (No. 12) Bill.
Bills to be read a Second time To-morrow.
Provisional Order Bills (No Standing Orders applicable),
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That in the case of the following Bill, referred on the First Reading thereof, no Standing Orders are applicable, namely:—
Kilmarnock Water Provisional Order Bill.
Bill to be read a Second time To-morrow.
Private Bills [ Lords ] (Standing Orders not previously inquired into not complied with),
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That in the case of the following Bill, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, which are applicable thereto, have not been complied with, namely:—
Tyneside Tramways and Tramroads Company Bill [ Lords. ]
Report referred to the Select Committee on Standing Orders.
Ross AND CROMARTY (DORNIE BRIDGE, &c.) ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL,
"to confirm a Provisional Order under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, relating to Ross and Cromarty (Dornie Bridge, &c.)," presented by Mr. Secretary Adamson; read the First time, and ordered (under Section 9 of the Act) to be read a Second time upon Wednesday 17th July, and to be printed. [Bill 3.]
Members of Parliament
Address for " Return of the names of every Member returned to serve in the thirty-fourth Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland appointed to meet on the eighteenth day of November, 1924, and dissolved the tenth day of May, 1929, specifying the name of the county, city, university, or place for which each Member was returned (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 123, of Session 1924-25)."—[ Major Long. ]
Oral Answers to Questions
Unemployment
Road Construction (British Stone)
asked the Lord Privy Seal whether, in his schemes for stimulating road construction, he proposes to urge all the authorities concerned to use British quarried stone with a view to increasing employment in this branch of industry?
I have been asked to reply. It is the policy of my Department to require as a condition of grants towards works expedited for the relief of unemployment,, that British plant and materials shall be used wherever practicable. It is not practicable to apply this condition to the whole of the work of highway authorities throughout the country; but circulars have been issued from time to time urging upon local authorities the desirability of using British plant and materials.
In view of this complete abandonment of Free Trade and the fact that the question is asked by a Liberal Whip, may I ask whether it will not be compulsory on these authorities to employ British materials?
Does the word " material " include tools of all kinds?
The policy of the Department is to employ on these road works, and particularly on unemployment works, British material and British tools wherever possible?
Miners
2 and 74.
asked (1) the Lord Privy Seal what steps, if any, he is taking to get unemployed miners back into the coal mines;
(2) asked the Secretary for Mines when he proposes to ask the House to reduce the miners' hours from eight to seven; and whether the seven hours will be from bank to bank?
I have been asked to reply. I would refer the hon. Member to the answer which I gave him yesterday.
Will the hon. Member kindly answer Question No. 2, which he did not answer yesterday?
I hope my hon. Friend will read what I said yesterday, which was a complete answer.
Was it not the definite recommendation of the Coal Commission that the best way to help the coal industry was to assist the basic trades of this country—namely, iron and steel?
On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. I appeal to you that the hon. Member has not answered Question No. 2; and he did not answer it yesterday. I want to ask whether the hon. Member ought not to tell us what steps he is taking to get unemployed miners into employment?
I am happy to say that I am not responsible for Ministers' answers.
National Projectile Factory, Dudley
asked the Lord Privy Seal whether he will make use of the Government's national projec tile factory in Dudley by transferring it into workmen's flats on the Viennese model, or using it in some other way under his scheme for the unemployed?
This proposal has been brought to my notice for the first time. Any practicable and useful scheme which my hon. Friend can suggest will be carefully examined.
Southern Railway (Electrification)
asked the Lord Privy Seal whether the Government are prepared to assist the Southern Rail- way Company to extend their electrification to further areas in order to test the benefits of long-distance electrification?
I have already asked the railway companies to suggest comprehensive schemes of development and improvement, including an extension of electrification, and in my statement to the House last week I indicated the direction in which the Government might be prepared to assist financially where such assistance could be shown to be necessary.
Dorrington Dyke (Repair)
asked the Lord Privy Seal whether he is aware that the Ruskington, Dorrington, and North Kyme Drainage Board, together with other authorities concerned, have unsuccessfully applied to the Ministry of Agriculture for financial assistance to wards the repair of the Dorrington dyke; that this work is urgently required before the winter and is quite beyond the financial resources of the authorities concerned; and whether, in these circum stances and in order to provide employment in the locality, he will give this scheme his favourable and immediate consideration?
I have been asked to reply. The general conditions on which a grant can be made by the Ministry have been explained to the Clerk of the Drainage Board named, but no application for a grant has yet been made, nor has a detailed scheme of the works proposed been submitted.
If a scheme is put before the Ministry, will the right hon. Gentleman give it his sympathetic consideration?
Yes. Certainly.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say that where the value of land has been improved at the expense of the nation the increased value will accrue to the nation?
Bailway Level Crossings
asked the Lord Privy Seal whether in view of the number of level crossings on each of the different groups of railways, the large growth of traffic in recent years, and the serious danger to life that these crossings cause, and to assist in solving the unemployment problem, he will consider pressure for the erection of bridges in their place; and, to avoid long delays pending negotiations between the different interests involved, whether he will consider the possibility of leaving the allocation of the respective costs of erection to the different interests to be settled in due course or, if necessary, by arbitration.
I have been asked to reply. I am prepared to consider applications for financial assistance towards well-considered schemes for the erection of bridges at level crossings. Many such schemes have received grants from the Road Fund in recent years, and further proposals are now before me. There are at present no powers for the settlement of differences as to the allocation of costs by arbitration.
Do I understand that the assistance of the Government in relation to level crossings is restricted to the erection of bridges? Will the hon. Gentleman say whether he is prepared to consider schemes for dealing with this problem in another way?
The Department is quite prepared to consider any scheme; and each scheme will be discussed on its merits.
May I ask whether in order to find out where these level crossings are giving trouble the Department will ask local authorities to give the percentage of time that roads are stopped and act accordingly.
That does not arise out of the question on the Order Paper.
Scotland and Ireland (Tunnel)
asked the Lord Privy Seal whether in view of the growing importance of the economic relations between Great Britain and Ireland, and in view of the possibility in time of war that the people of this country may become partially dependent on food-supplies from Ireland, His Majesty's Government will consider the desirability of constructing a tunnel between Port Patrick, in Scotland, and Donaghadee, in Northern Ireland, as well as, or instead of, the proposed Channel Tunnel?
I shall be prepared to consider any scheme which can be shown to be technically and economically practicable, but on the information available I doubt whether this project, of which I have now heard for the first time, falls at the present into this class.
In considering any further schemes, will the right hon. Gentleman consider a scheme for a pier head at the head of the Mull of Kintyre?
I indicated last week that I shall consider any scheme that is practicable and can be justified, and I exclude none.
In considering any scheme for a tunnel between Ireland and Scotland, will the right hon. Gentleman study the map? He will see that the appropriate place for the beginning of such a tunnel is the extreme end of the Mull of Kintyre in Argyllshire.
I heard the supplementary question, and I am sure the hon. and learned Member will be satisfied when his constituents read it and find that he is taking some interest in them.
May I ask whether, as an alternative to the hon. Member's proposal—
We cannot go into the alternative schemes which hon. Members may suggest at Question Time.
Livkepool Street 'Station
asked the Lord Privy Seal whether he is aware that not only does the congestion at Liverpool Street Station cause inconvenience to persons travelling to and from their work, but that such congestion is definitely preventing the development of East Coast seaside resorts, such as Clacton, Frinton, Brightlingsea and Walton; and whether, in drawing up plans he will keep the needs of these watering-places in view?
I have this important aspect of the matter in mind.
Forth and Tay Road-Bridge Schemes
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether the Forth and Tay road-bridge schemes will form part of the Government's proposals to deal with unemployment in Scotland; and whether he can indicate the stage which has been reached in considering the schemes?
I have, been asked to reply. The engineers' reports on the proposed Forth and Tay road bridges are now in my hands; hut until I have had an opportunity of com suiting the local authorities concerned, I shall not be in a position to make a statement.
When does the hon. Gentleman hope to be able to get into, touch with the local authorities?
We are taking steps to get into touch with the local authorities on the basis of the reports received. It is obvious that the Ministry cannot settle its own policy until we know the views of the local authorities.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the local authority concerned is against paying anything towards this undertaking; and will he, therefore, not consider this matter as a. national undertaking?
No doubt that aspect of the matter will not be forgotten by the local authorities concerned.
Transferred Miners, Shoreditch
asked the Minister of Labour how many men have been transferred from the depressed mining areas, into employment in the area of the Shore-ditch Employment Exchange under the industrial transference scheme at the latest available dates, and into what occupations?
Up to 24th June, 1929, 51 men had been transferred from depressed areas into employment in the area of the Shoreditch Employment Exchange under the industrial transference scheme. I regret that statistics are not available regarding the occupations in which the men have been placed.
Does the right hon. Lady realise that there is a great deal of unemployment in this area, and will she consider sending miners to other areas, such as the West End?
I will make it my business to find out what is the condition of unemployment in the Shoreditch area, and the hon. Member may take it from me that, so far as I am concerned, such an area will not receive any further transferees.
London Area
asked the Minister of Labour the number of insured persons in the London area at the last available date; what was the number of unemployed in the same area on that date; and how the figures compare with 12 months previously?
It is estimated that at the beginning of July, 1928, the latest date for which figures regarding the total insured population are available, there were 2,147,000 persons aged 16 to 64 insured under the Unemployment Insurance Acts in the Greater London area; of whom 108,755 were recorded as unemployed. The corresponding figures for July, 1927, were 2,091,000 insured, of whom 106,700 were recorded as unemployed. I may add that at 24th June, 1929, the insured persons recorded as unemployed in the Greater London area numbered 106,512.
As regards the amount involved in the applications received by the Committee during the period covered by the 7th (Interim) Beport, and rejected for various reasons, reference should be made to Tables 1 A and B of the Beport. It will be seen that 38 schemes of a total value of £334,732 were rejected or withdrawn. The number of schemes under consideration at the 30th June, 1929, was 235, estimated to cost £5,158,464.
Safeguarding of Industries
Wool Textile Industry,
asked the President of the Board of Trade when he proposes to publish the Beport of the committee
Relief Schemes (Grants)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the total amount of the grants made by the Lord St. Davids Committee for each of the years during which it has been in existence; what is the total amount involved in applications which were before it in the financial year 1927-28, but which were not acceded to because funds were not available or for any other reasons; and what is the sum total of amounts involved in applications now before the Committee?
I have been asked to reply. My hon. Friend will find most of the information which he requires in the 7th (Interim) Beport of the proceedings of the Committee, of which I am sending him a copy. This deals with the proceedings of the Committee to the 30th June, 1928, and with my hon. Friend's consent I will circulate in the OFFICIAL BEPORT figures giving what information I have regarding schemes approved or rejected since that date.
Following is the information:
which inquired into the application for the safeguarding of the wool textile industry?
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether it is now proposed to publish the Beport of the Safeguarding Committee on Woollen and Worsted; and what action he proposes to take thereon?
The Report was published yesterday. As has already been indicated by the Prime Minister, the Government do not consider that it calls for any action by them.
May I ask whether, in case any further demand comes from the trade unions in this particular industry, he will be prepared to deal with the case under some other procedure?
The Government have indicated that, if it is the desire of the House, an opportunity will be provided for discussing the Report, and I can assure the hon. and gallant Member that on that occasion it will be very easy to prove that the majority of the members of the trade unions are against this proposal.
With all respect, that is not an answer to the question I am asking. I am asking whether, if a trade union makes an application for some measure of safeguarding, they will be turned down on every occasion in the future?
A decision has already been reached on the point mentioned, and, if no more applications are in fact received, the question cannot possibly arise.
Peactice and Procedure
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether future applications for Safeguarding will have to comply with the terms of the White Paper of 1925, or whether it is proposed to issue a fresh White Paper?
I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the statements on this subject which have already been made on behalf of the Government.
If the White Paper is dead, is there any other procedure by' which an industry, employers or employed can have any hope of receiving support?
No, Sir, not within my knowledge. If the White Paper disappears, of course all Safeguarding practice and procedure goes with it.
Are we to conclude that, as far as this matter is concerned, the world-wide and generally understood method of giving employment is to be withdrawn?
That is precisely a point for debate—that there is no agreement at all that this is a method of giving employment.
Gas Mantles
asked the President of the Board of Trade how the production of gas mantles and the employment in the industry in the March quarter of 1929 compares with the corresponding figures for the December quarter of 1925?
From the information supplied by the manufacturers, it is estimated that the numbers of mantles produced were about 101,000 gross in the first quarter of 1929, as compared with about 88,000 gross in the last quarter of 1925, and that the average numbers of workers in the two periods were approximately 2,100 and 1,900 respectively.
Does not this indicate definite progress in this industry under the Safeguarding procedure?
No, Sir. I think that that would be a very unsafe deduction, first of all because the figures here are very limited in scope, and, secondly, because in gas mantles, as my hon. Friend must be aware, you have a market allocated to the exclusion of other competitors manufacturing in Great Britain.
rose —
All this will be pertinent on another occasion.
Iron and Steel Industry
asked the Prime Minister when he expects to be able to announce the names of the members of the Committee to inquire into the condition of the iron and steel industry; and whether the terms of reference will include the consideration of assisting the industry by means of import duties?
I have been asked to reply. I hope to be able to make a statement on this matter at an early date.
Can the right hon. Gentleman give any reply to the second part of the question?
I must not anticipate the statement, but even now I think that I am at liberty to say to the hon. and gallant Member and to the House that the inquiry will be of the most comprehensive character.
Cutlery
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that the average declared value of imported knives and blanks has fallen from 4s. 4d. per dozen in 1925 to 3s. per dozen in 1928, and that during the same period the average declared value of scissors and blanks has fallen from 5s. 11d. per dozen to 4s. per dozen; and whether, in view of the fact that declared prices are largely fictitious and that unduly low prices are being quoted to evade payment of full Customs duty, he will consider the question of instituting a system of certificates to ensure that duty is paid on values which are not below those ruling in the country of production for similar articles?
As regard the first part of the question, the answer is in the affirmative; as regards the second part, the statutory value on which duty is charged in the case of cutlery is the price which an importer would give for the article if it were delivered, freight and insurance paid, in bond at the port of importation, and the law does not provide that the import value must not be less than the domestic price in the exporting country. The suggestion that the value should be based on certificates as to the prices ruling in the country of production could not therefore be adopted. The hon. Member may rest assured, however, that the Customs have this matter under constant observation in order to ensure that the duty is charged upon the full statutory value of the article imported.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that people in the trade are strongly of the opinion that there are a good many fictitious declarations? Will he ask his officials to make very careful inquiries into this matter?
I have already stated that they have had the matter constantly under observation. I believe there have been some cases recently in which the Customs authorities suspected that the declared value of the articles was too low, and after inquiries a higher duty was claimed.
Cinematograph Films Act
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been drawn to the conditions imposed by American manufacturers of talking-picture apparatus upon the film exhibitors in Great Britain; and whether he will consider setting up a committee to investigate the restrictive conditions that foreign manufacturers of talking film apparatus and talking pictures are imposing upon the film industry of Great Britain with the object of introducing amending legislation to prevent Section 1 of the Cinematograph Films Act being defeated?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. I am in communication with the Cinematograph Exhibitors' Association in regard to this matter, and the Parliamentary Secretary is receiving a deputation from them next week. The matter has also been under consideration by the Advisory Committee appointed under the Cinematograph Films Act, and I do not think there is occasion to set up another committee for its investigation.
Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that British talking films cannot be shown on this American apparatus, and that this is more or less crippling the whole British producing trade?
Yes, I fully recognise that there is very great difficulty for the time being on the point that my hon. Friend mentions, and that is precisely one of the subjects which, I understand, are to be discussed when this deputation is received. It will also be considered by the committee.
In view of these difficulties, can the right hon. Gentleman suggest what the exhibitors can do to show their quota? Unless they can show them over these machines, it is impossible for them to comply with the Act. Will the right hon. Gentleman consider amending the Act?
That, of course, is not a point upon which I can give a reply this afternoon. It is a matter which will be taken into account. In fact it is one of the important items for inquiry.
If I put a question next week, will the right hon. Gentleman be able to give a definite answer?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, if British talking machines are not employed, American machines are, and that that means millions of pounds to America for apparatus?
Trade and Commerce
Expoet Trade
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he can state our share of the world's export trade at the present time as compared with 1913?
The share of this country in the aggregate exports of all countries of the world amounted to approximately 11 per cent, in 1928, as compared with 13 per cent, in 1913. The figure for 1913 relates to the United Kingdom as then constituted.
Wireless Industry (Marconi Royalty)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the increased royalties on wireless receivers has placed the wireless industry in a serious position; and whether he will make an inquiry with a view to amending legislation?
Some representations have been received as to the effect of a recent decision of the Court on the manufacture of wireless receiving sets. As to the second part of the question, a committee was recently appointed by the Board of Trade to inquire whether any amendments in the Patents and Designs Acts are desirable.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Comptroller-General said that the Marconi Company had abused their monopoly, and that, if they persisted in their claims, over 60 per cent, of the wireless factories would be forced to close down?
I understand that this was the subject of litigation and that certain steps were taken in the industry before a final judgment was obtained. That and other relevant matters will undoubtedly be taken into account in this review. In any case, it is open to the industry itself to make representations to this inquiry.
May I bring some facts before the notice of the right hon. Gentleman?
Certainly.
Fish Exports (Foreign Duties)
asked the President of the Board of Trade the countries which impose import duties on British caught fresh and cured fish and the amount of such duties.
Most foreign countries impose duties on the importation of fish and it would not be possible to set out all these rates of duty in a reply to a Parliamentary question. If the hon. Member will let me know what countries and what descriptions of fish he has more particularly in mind, I will endeavour to let him have the information he requires.
Will the right hon. Gentleman also let us know the difference in harbour dues in those countries?
Russia
asked the President of the Board of Trade the value in pounds sterling of the imports into Great Britain from Soviet Russia for the year 1928, the exports from Great Britain to Soviet Russia during the same period of goods manufactured in Great Britain, and also of re-exports?
The declared value of the imports of merchandise into the United Kingdom consigned from Russia during the year 1928 was £21,576,000, that of British exports consigned to Russia, £2,716,000, and that of re-exports consigned to Russia £2,085,000.
If it is a fact that exports pay for imports, what has happened to the 17 odd millions?
Grindstones (Exports)
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he can give the quantity of grindstones which have been exported from South Yorkshire to America in the years 1926, 1927, and 1928?
The exports of grindstones from the United Kingdom consigned to the United States of America during 1926, 1927 and 1928, amounted to 576 tons, 639 tons and 409 tons, respectively. I regret that I am not in a position to say what proportion of these exports was from South Yorkshire.
Government Departments
Enemy Debts Depabtment
asked the President of the Board of Trade the number of men and women employed in the Enemy Debts Department at the end of June, 1929; and whether any resignations from that Department took place during the last six months?
The numbers of men and women employed in the Clearing Office for Enemy Debts at the end of June, 1929, were 447 and 27 respectively. During the last six months two men and three women left the Office by resignation in addition to 27 men who left by transfer, death or discharge on completion of their work.
Do those figures include the number of staff employed in Berlin or Buda Pest in connection with the Enemy Debts Department?
I should prefer notice of the question, but I think I am safe in saying that the statistics quoted relate only to the Department in this country?
Does the right hon. Gentleman not think that the staff is very high, considering how much work has been disposed of?
No, Sir; this matter has been considered from time to time both in the House and elsewhere, and, in fact, there is an enormous amount of property with which the Department has to deal. The question of staff is being constantly kept in view, but the commitments are very large.
I know a great deal about that particular point. Does the right hon. Gentleman not think that it would be in the interests of the public that the small amounts of admitted claims now outstanding with the Hungarian debt department—[HON. MEMBERS: "Speech!"]
Women (Conditions of Employment)
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury what are his intentions in regard to providing equal opportunities and equal pay for equal work in the Civil Service?
The general question of the conditions of employment of women in the Civil Service will be within the terms of reference of the Royal Commission on the Civil Service which is about to be appointed.
In view of the fact that the House of Commons has twice decided that the principle of equal pay is to be applied to men and women in the Civil Service, is it the intention to refer that decision of this House to a Royal Commission, or are they to inquire merely into the methods by which the principle of equal pay should be applied?
Obviously, I could not anticipate the terms of reference to the Commission, which will be decided by the Government, but the very widest terms of reference will, no doubt, be drawn up.
Does not the hon. Member realise that what I am trying to do is to restrict the terms of reference and not to widen them?
I am not concerned with what the hon. Member wishes to do, but to state what I believe to be the intentions of the Government.
May we assume that the terms of reference of this Commission will apply to the appointment of women in the Diplomatic and Consular Services, as well as in the Civil Service as that is generally understood?
I cannot go into details of that kind. Obviously, that is impossible, but I should imagine that the terms would be wide enough to cover the points which my hon. Friend has made.
Will the hon. Member take care that they are?
May I ask, for the sake of clarity, whether the hon. Member will say if the Government accepts the principle of equal pay for equal work or not?
Obviously, that lies without the scope of this question. It is a point for the Royal Commission.
Army of Occupation
asked the Secretary of State for "War whether any arrangements have been made for British troops to hold manoeuvres on German ground during the next three months; and, if so, whether, in the interest of good feeling between Britain and Germany, he will consider the immediate cancellation of such arrangements?
No, Sir. No manoeuvres or inter-brigade operations will be carried out this year by the British Army of the Rhine. The Government would not willingly cause either annoyance or inconvenience to the civilian population.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the possibility and desirability, in the interests of promoting good feeling still further, of directing the commanding officer of the Army of Occupation on the Rhine to offer the services of the officers and men as nurserymaids and mothers' helps?
asked the Secretary of State for War the cost of the British Army of the Rhine for the latest complete year; and the amount charged in the Army Estimates for the same year?
The amount included in Army Estimates for the year ending 31st March, 1930, in respect of effective military expenditure on the British Army of the Rhine is £1,278,900, as shown on page 295 of those Estimates. Towards this expenditure it is estimated that £950,000 will be received as Appropriations-in-Aid, as shown on page 53 of the Estimates. The latest account figures are those for the year ending 31st March, 1928, and will be found on pages 9 and 61 of the Army Appropriation Account, 1927.
British Army
Ranker Officers (Retired Pay)
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he will consider the claims of Army-pensioned ranker officers who received commissions during the War, with a view to bringing their minimum rate of retired pay up to a level with that paid to the pre-War pensioners of the Royal Marines who were commissioned during the War?
As the hon. Member is aware, this question was fully considered by a specially appointed Committee whose report was accepted by the House in 1925. In these circumstances, I see no grounds for re-opening this matter.
Guard (Bank of England)
asked the Secretary of State for War how much the Bank of England pays the State for the military guard it uses; and whether there are any other cases of a private company receiving military protection in this country?
There is no similar arrangement to that under which for the past 150 years a military guard has been furnished for the Bank of England. No payment is made by the Bank to Army funds in this connection. I would, however, point out that, as the Bank of England is under Statute the banker for the Government, and is responsible for the register of Government loans, and has the custody of the gold reserves of the country, its position is obviously different from that of other companies.
Is it a fact that the Governors of the Bank of England provide very adequate refreshment for these troops, and that the service is a very popular one?
I am not aware of what refreshments are provided.
In view of the fact that this guard no longer serves any useful purpose, will the right hon. Gentleman consider the question of dispensing with it?
I am always ready to consider any suggestion made by any hon. Member, and, if a proposition is put before me, I will give it due consideration.
Meat Supplies
asked the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the fact that British troops are not to be fed on British beef, he can state from what country the beef, in the contracts that are to be made for the autumn, is to come?
In the consideration of tenders for ration beef, no difference will be made in the methods previously adopted. The figures for the first six months of 1929 show that 99.33 per cent. of the beef used was Empire meat.
Has the right hon. Gentleman's attention been drawn to the observation of the Lord Privy Seal, who asked what was the good of importing what we could make for ourselves; and will he not carry out that principle instead of showing this difference?
Can the right hon. Gentleman say what proportion of homegrown meat was supplied during that period?
I am afraid I must confine my answer to the figures which I have given, because I do not carry figures in my head, and would not like to be responsible for giving wrong information. With regard to the other supplementary question, a perfectly plain declaration has been made on behalf of the Government, and notice has been given that the matter will be raised on the Adjournment. I must confine myself to the answer which I have already given.
rose —
I do not know if hon. Members realise that there are 111 questions on the Order Paper.
Scotland
Landholders (Loans)
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is aware that the practice of the Department of Agriculture for Scotland with regard to loans to landholders for the acquisition or provision of buildings has been changed, in respect that when the landholders removed their loans, so far as unpaid, were not continued to incoming landholders, with the result that, on estates not belonging to the Department, the holding in many cases dropped out of the Acts and, on the Department's estates, the incoming landholders, being refused the benefit of the legislation to acquire their buildings by way of loans, had to pay equipped rent on land and buildings; and whether he will give instructions to the Department to revert to their former practice?
The Department of Agriculture have been advised that the previous practice of making loans to incoming holders to enable them to take over the outgoing holders' improvements is out with the powers conferred by Section 7 (7) of the Act of 1911. The Department are aware of only five eases in which their refusal to make such loans has been followed by the lapse of holdings from land holders' tenure. So far as their own estates are concerned the holders entering at equipped rents enjoy the full rights and privileges of landholders, including the right to compensation for improvements which they themselves may pro vide. I may say, however, that on my instruction the matter is now under review.
Western Highlands Transport Facilities
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will take into early consideration the want of proper landing accommodation and storage at Strontian, at the island of Coll, at Bunessan in Mull, and at Kilchoan in Ardnamurchan, with a view to providing piers for these places at an early date; and will he confer with Messrs. MacBrayne and Company (1928) and other steamboat companies engaged in West Highland transport as to the general condition and need of piers at the various places at which they call?
The general question of piers in the Western Highlands and Islands is one which I propose to investigate as soon as circumstances permit. I shall consider the suggestion made in the last part of the question.
Will the right hon. Gentleman take the opportunity in the Recess of visiting these places, after giving due notice to the local people, and they will advise him of the very great hardships from which they are suffering?
Motor Accidents, Govan
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland the number of motor accidents which have taken place in Govan since 1st January, 1928, to the last convenient date; the number where fatalities occurred; the number of fatalities; the number where non-fatal cases occurred; and the number injured?
The number of motor accidents in Govan from the 1st January, 1928, to the 5th July, 1929, was 463; fatalities occurred in 23 of these accidents, the number of fatalities being 24; the number of non-fatal accidents, was 440 and the number of persons injured 578.
Since the number of accidents in that case is very large and is increasing, will the right hon. Gentleman call the attention of the local authorities to the desirability of taking steps to prevent the " speeding " by vehicles, which is going on in the streets of Govan at present?
In a reply which I gave to my hon. Friend yesterday, I pointed out that I was prepared to discuss the whole matter with him.
Child Adoption
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether an Adoption of Children (Scotland) Bill will be introduced on the lines of the English Adoption of Children Act?
The question is receiving consideration, but I am unable at present to give any undertaking as to legislation.
Local Government Act
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland the number of resolutions which he has received from town councils, education authorities, parish councils, and other public bodies in Scotland, respectively, calling for the suspension of the operation of the Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1929, until it has formed the subject of further inquiry or for the amendment of the provisions of the Act?
The numbers are as follow:
Liquor Traffic (Clubs)
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps he proposes to take to prevent the opening of drinking clubs in no-licence areas?
The granting of certificates of registration of clubs is governed by Statute, and I have no power to intervene. As my hon. Friend is aware, the Government proposes to set up a Commission of Inquiry into the laws relating to the sale of intoxicating liquors, and the question of club licences in no-licence areas will in all probability be considered by the Commission.
Can my right hon. Friend tell us if, in the setting up of this Commission, it is intended to set up a separate Commission for Scotland, seeing that the licensing law is so different there from that in England?
That is a question that I cannot answer at present.
Will my right hon. Friend take it into consideration?
Certainly.
Will my right hon. Friend use his influence in that direction?
Housing Conditions, Partick, Glasgow
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether his attention has been drawn to the insanitary condition of many of the common stairs and closes in the Partick Division of Glasgow; and whether he will take steps, in the interests of public health, to make the whitewashing and painting of such stairs and closes compulsory on the proprietors?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. As regards the second part, Section 252 of the Glasgow Police Act, 1866, provides that the sanitary inspector may give notice " to the proprietor of any dwelling-house which has been specially reported by him to the corporation as in a filthy condition requiring such proprietor to cleanse and limewash the outside thereof, and the common stairs, lobbies and staircases." I am informed that the inspection of closes and staircases is a routine duty of the sanitary inspectors, and that 978 notices under the Section were issued during the past 18 months in the Partick Division. In these circumstances the local authority appear to have all the necessary powers to deal with this matter.
Will my right hon. Friend take steps to see that the sanitary notices are put into operation, as it is one thing giving notice and another thing having the work carried out?
That is a matter for the local authorities.
Fishing Industry
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he has received any representations from Scottish fishermen with regard to the price of deep-sea charts; and, if so, whether any action is proposed?
I have received no representations on the subject referred to in the first part of the question. As regards the second part, I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the reply given yesterday by the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries to the hon. Member for Leith (Mr. E. Brown).
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is pre pared to undertake an immediate survey of the fishery piers and harbours in Scotland, with a view to the execution of the necessary repairs, alterations, and other works required to meet the needs of the Scottish fishing fleets as part of the Government's scheme to relieve un employment?
The question of assisting necessary improvements of Scottish fishery harbours and piers is receiving my consideration in connection both with the encouragement of the fishing industry and with the relief of unemployment. The latter aspect is before the Unemployment Committee, on which I am represented. The information in the possession of the Fishery Board about these matters is very extensive, and in present circumstances I do not consider that any sufficient purpose would be served by undertaking an exhaustive special survey of all the fishery piers and harbours in Scotland.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the extreme urgency of this matter and of the fact that there are many harbour authorities which are quite unable to execute the necessary repairs, and will he get into touch with all the harbour authorities?
I can assure the hon. and learned Gentleman that I am aware of the urgency of the matter and will not lose any time.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that certain schemes are actually being prepared and completed now by some of the harbour authorities, and that it only wants financial facilities to be afforded for the work to be put in hand right away, and will he see that those financial facilities are afforded?
In reply to the main question, I have already said that the question is before the Unemployment Committee.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is a question of ready money?
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will consider the direct representation of inshore fishermen on the Fisheries Board of Scotland?
I cannot make any statement upon this point at present, but I shall be glad to consider it.
Will the right hon. Gentleman not take into consideration the recent attack made on the livelihood of the inshore fishermen by the proposal of the Fishery Board to allow trawlers to part of the prohibited area of the Clyde, and will he not see that inshore fishermen are protected by having some direct representation on the Fishery Board, which is thought to favour the trawlers as more important than the inshore fishermen?
I am prepared to consider any proposal for the benefit of the fishermen, but I would ask the hon. and learned Member to realise the great practical difficulty in the way of obtaining satisfactory direct representation of fishermen on the Fishery Board for Scotland, because of working fishermen who might be suitable being too busily engaged at their calling to give the requisite time.
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is making any arrangements for the advance of money to fishermen for the purpose of replacement of boats and gear?
I am considering this matter in connection with my general examination of matters relating to the fishing industry, but at this date I am not in a position to make any statement with regard to it.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that an Act of Parliament exists to provide the necessary funds, if he can persuade the Chancellor of the Exchequer to provide those funds?
Belmont Institution
asked the Minister of Labour if she has had any recent Report on the Belmont colony; whether she has had any complaints as to the conditions there; and, if so, if any reforms are contemplated?
I have been asked to reply to this question. I am sending the hon. Member a copy of a Report by one of my Assistant-General Inspectors on the Belmont Institution. The only complaint which I have received was embodied in a report on a visit to the Institution by a deputation from a London Board of Guardians. This report which has been discussed in detail by the General Inspector with the Guardians, was in certain respects exaggerated and misleading but contained also many useful suggestions, some of which were new to the managers. Some of these have already been put into operation. I understand that the Guardians contemplate a further visit to the Institution.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consult his right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour for the purpose of transferring this colony to the Ministry of Labour for training purposes, instead of it being utilised for penal purposes?
I may say that the reports in question raise a large number of big questions of policy, which are now under my consideration.
War Pensions Administration
asked the Prime Minister whether it is proposed to obtain powers to remove the pension grievances of ex-service men and their dependants as specified in the proposals of the British Legion, and in particular with regard to the operation of the seven-year limit?
asked the Minister of Pensions how soon he hopes to be able to make an announcement regarding the abolition of the seven-years limit?
I have been asked to reply. Representatives of the British Legion have submitted certain proposals to me on various matters connected with the administration of War pensions and these are having my immediate consideration. The point mentioned in the questions is certainly to be dealt with, but I cannot at this early date announce any definite scheme. In the meantime, I may say that the necessary steps are being taken to ensure that no case shall be rejected merely on the ground that it is submitted beyond the time limit.
In that case, will it be possible to re-examine cases that were rejected recently by the late Government on the ground of the seven years' limit?
I would request my hon. and gallant Friend not to ask me to go beyond this answer at the moment.
Will the right hon. Gentleman inform the House whether he is prepared to accept any recommendations from any other organisation of ex-service men, in addition to those which he has received from the British Legion?
Yes, I am prepared to consider any recommendations which are worth while on this important issue.
London Squares and Enclosures (Preservation)
asked the Prime Minister whether it is the intention of His Majesty's Government to introduce legislation with a view to the preservation of London squares and enclosures for the public?
I have been asked to reply. I am not in a position at present to make a definite statement, but the matter is receiving my consideration.
Gas Attacks (Protection of Civil Population)
asked the Prime Minister whether the committee which has been considering plans for the protection of the civil population from attack from the air by poison gas has yet evolved a scheme; and, if so, whether the British Red Cross and local authorities are taking steps to operate it in case of necessity?
In view of the recent ratification of the Geneva Gas Protocol of 1925 by most of the important European States, including this country, I do not think this is a moment to press the local authorities to develop plans for the protection of the civil population against gas attack. Much preparatory work had, however, been done by the Committee of Imperial Defence upon this problem prior to the ratification of the Protocol and that work will not be thrown away if, unfortunately, a situation should hereafter arise requiring as a measure of prudence the development of plans for this purpose.
German Reparations
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether any new scale of payment of reparations has been submitted to the British Government during the last six months; and what decision has been arrived at by the Government?
Proposals for a final settlement of the Reparation question have recently been submitted to the British and other Governments by the Committee of Experts which sat in Paris. The Report of this Committee is now available (Command Paper No. 3343) and is being considered by the Government with a view to a conference with the other Powers concerned. It will rest with this conference to take a decision as to the adoption of the plan.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can give any figure as to the capital value of the loss entailed on this country by reason of the departure from the Spa percentages in the Young Report; and whether the division of the reparation debt into two categories reduces our security for obtaining our share in comparison with the share obtained by France?
The loss entailed to this country by reason of the departure from the Spa percentages in the Young Report amounts on average to approximately £2,400,000 a year. The capitalised value of this annual loss will depend on the interest tables selected; but applying the 5½ per cent, tables which the experts themselves have utilised for their calculations, it may be estimated at £37½ millions. It is perhaps fair to say, however, that the great bulk of the loss only begins to be incurred after 10 years.
As regards the second part of the question, the Report recommends that the French Government should receive a preponderant share of the unconditional part of the German annuities but that they should provide a guarantee fund amounting to £25 millions which would be drawn upon to make good to the other creditor Powers any loss arising out of the postponement of the rest of the annuities. Provided that this guarantee fund is effectively put in force, the security of the British share, as compared with the French, should not be appreciably impaired so long as any postponement of the German payments is limited to two years, as contemplated in the plan. But of course the guarantee fund affords no security against a cessation or longer postponement of the conditional annuities, and to the extent that these are regarded as possibilities it may be said that the effect of the Young plan is to concede a priority to France and Italy.
The House will realise that this country is in no way committed to the acceptance of the recommendations of the Young Committee. They are to be the subject of discussion at the forthcoming international conference.
Arising out of that serious answer, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether His Majesty's Government are in a position to ask for modifications of the Young Report at the coming conference?
Most certainly, I think that that would be implied in the last part of my reply, where I said that this country is not in any way committed to the acceptance of the recommendations of the Young Committee.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say that, if we accept this, we shall be actually receiving less from our Allies than we have to pay to the United States of America?
No.
Death Duties
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been called to the offer of a Scottish Peer to surrender part of his estate in payment of death duties; and what action he proposes to take in the matter?
My attention has been drawn to a suggestion made by a Scottish Peer that the Government should accept land in payment of Death Duties. As the hon. Member is aware, statutory provisions dealing with this subject are contained in Section 56 of the Finance (1909-10) Act, 1910; and I will consider whether it might be desirable in the public interest to make an extension of the present facilities for paying Death Duties by this method.
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury if he will give details of any applications made under Section 56 (1) of the Finance Act, 1909-10, for the surrender of real property in satisfaction of estate or succession duties and the action of the Commissioners upon such applications?
Applications under the section referred to have from time to time been received by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue, but I am unable to give the details of each case. Up to the present two offers of real estate under the Section referred to have been accepted, consisting, in the one case, of land and school-houses purchased by the Somerset County Council, and, in the other, of houses purchased by the Post Office. In accordance with the recommendations of the Committee appointed in 1911 to inquire into the working of the Section where land is offered in payment of Death Duties, the Commissioners of Inland Revenue do not accept the land themselves, but act as intermediaries for its transfer to some other public Department or authority who might desire to purchase it. Applications are accordingly referred to any Department or authority for whose purpose the particular property is considered to be suitable.
Has the hon. Gentleman noticed that I requested him to give details, and he has not given any details as to prices?
So far as details of that kind can be made public, if the hon.-Member will put down another question, I have no doubt that it will be answered.
What will the Government do with this property unless they find a purchaser?
May I call attention to the fact that not half the Questions on the Order Paper have been reached today, owing to the number of supplementary questions?
I would like also to draw the attention of hon. Members to that fact.
Inter-Allied Debts (France)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether and, if so, what steps have been taken to indicate to the French Government that if the capital sum due to America for stores sold to France after the War becomes due owing to the absence of the ratification of their American Debt Agreement this country will require a similar payment according to the Agreement already arrived at between the late Government and the French Government?
From the outset of the negotiations for the funding of the French War Debt the late Government laid down, as a fundamental principle, that any payments that France might make to the United States Government should be accompanied simultaneously pari passu by proportionate payments to Great Britain, and a reminder that this principle still holds good was sent to the French Minister of Finance by the right hon. Member for Epping last May.
In view of the daily increasing danger of the situation envisaged by this condition coming to pass, are the Government taking any steps to indicate to the French Government, while yet there is time, the increasing liability to which they are throwing themselves open?
We are watching with very considerable interest the discussions that are going on in Paris in regard to this matter, and I cannot say anything further at the moment than this. If the circumstances contemplated in the question arise, the Government will certainly insist on the condition laid down by the right hon. and gallant Gentleman.
Spirits (Sale in Half-Bottles)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the hardship caused especially to the poorer section of the community by the present conditions, he will reconsider his decision with regard to the sale of half-bottles of spirits?
No, Sir.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman consider this suggestion as penny wise and pound foolish?
Promissory Notes
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury if he will consider the advisability of printing on Imperial promissory notes the amount covered by the stamps and such other information as he considers necessary?
The rates of duty on promissory notes have remained unchanged for very many years and are generally known. I think, therefore, that no good purpose would be served by adopting my hon. Friend's suggestion, particularly as there is no obligation to use paper officially supplied.
Submarine Disaster
{by Private Notice) asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he has any statement to make with regard to the collision between Submarines H.47 and L.12?
I deeply regret to inform the House that Submarine H.47 was sunk early this morning in collision with Submarine L.12 in the Irish Sea about 20 miles due west from Fishguard in about 50 fathoms of water. L.12 and H.47 formed part of the Instructional Submarine Flotilla and were proceeding from Lamlash to Portland. No details are available yet as to the circumstances of the collision. One officer and one petty officer from H.47 were saved and one man from L.12 is missing; one man also in L.12 is in a critical condition. Steps are being taken with all dispatch to locate H.47, but her salvage in such deep water is most improbable. The best diving apparatus available has been dispatched to the scene. I regret, however, that no hope can be entertained of any of the remainder of her crew being alive. I am sure that the whole House will desire to join in conveying our heartfelt sympathy to the bereaved relatives.
Did I understand the right hon. Gentleman to say that these vessels were on passage, or doing exercises 2 Is he in possession of that information?
I am very anxious not to give details until I get a full report, but I understand that they were part of a flotilla which had been doing exercises at Lamlash and were proceeding to Portland.
Will very early steps be taken to relieve the relatives who are left behind? Generally, great delay occurs in these cases.
An inquiry has already been initiated.
No, I meant to relieve them financially at the end of next week.
I meant my answer to cover that.
Could the First Lord give us the approximate number of the complement of the submarine which has been lost?
I have asked for details. I am not quite certain of the exact number, but I should say we have lost about 22.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisabliity of enlisting help from the diving company which is at present searching for treasure in the s.s. " Egypt," because I understand it has unrivalled experience of diving in deep water?
Professor Leonard Hill is already on his way to advise and deal with, the operations necessary for diving, and I am certain that the First Sea Lord will take all steps which are available.
Message from the Lords
Consolidation Bills
That they communicate that they have come to the following Resolution, namely: " That it is desirable that a Joint Committee of both Houses of Parliament be appointed for the present Session to consider all Public and Private Bills which have for their exclusive purpose the consolidation of the provisions of existing Acts of Parliament:
That all Petitions against any such Private Bill shall stand referred to the Joint Committee, and that the Committee shall not take into consideration any Petition against any such Bill if the Petitioners seek to alter the existing law."
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, " An Act to empower the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and Citizens of the city of Birmingham to construct street improvements and a tramway; to extend their limits and those of the East Worcestershire Waterworks Company for the supply of water; to enlarge their powers in regard to their savings and housing bank; and to make further, provision in regard to their several undertakings, and to the health, local government, and improvement of the city; and for other purposes." [Birmingham Corporation (General Powers) Bill [ Lords. ]
Birmingham Corporation (General Powers) Bill [ Lords ],
Read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
Selection (Unopposed Bills Committee) (Panel)
Mr. Frederick Hall reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had selected the following Ten Members to be the Panel to serve on Unopposed Bills Committees under Standing Order 105: Mr. Alpass, Mr. Charles Brown, Mr. Ernest Brown, Sir Bertram Falle, Lieut.-Colonel James, Mr. Jenkins, Mr. Mac-kinder, Mr. Smith-Carington, Lieut.-Colonel Spender-Clay, and Mr. Watkins.
Report to lie upon the Table.
Selection (Local Legislation Committee)
Mr. Frederick Hall reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had nominated the following Fifteen Members to serve on the Local Legislation Committee: Mr. Cape, Earl Castlestewart, Mr. Christie, Colonel England, Captain. Robert Henderson, Lieut.-Colonel Heneage, Mr. Hurd, Major-General Sir Alfred Knox, Mr. Lowth, Mr. Muggeridge, Mr. Palin, Mr. Robert Richardson, Sir Thomas Robinson, Mr. Tom Snowden, and Mr. Robert Wilson.
Report to lie upon the Table.
Selection (Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899) (Panel)
Mr. Frederick Hall reported from the Committee of Selection: That, in pursuance of the provisions of the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, they had selected the following Twenty-five Members to form the Parliamentary Panel of Members of this House to act as Commissioners: Sir George Berry, Mr. Boothby, Mr. Brooke, Sir Samuel Chapman, Mr. Climie, Major Colville, Earl of Dalkeith, Sir Patrick Ford, Mr. Hardie, Sir Harry Hope, Lieut.-General Sir Aylmer Hunter-Weston, Sir Murdoch Macdonald, Mr. Neil Maclean, Mr. Marcus, Mr. Mathers, Lieut.-Colonel Moore, Mr. Murnin, Mr. Simpkinson, Mr. Skelton, Mr. Stewart, Mr. James Stuart, Mr. M'Lean Watson, Mr. James Welsh, Major McKenzie Wood, and Mr. Wright.
Report to lie upon the Table.
Selection (Standing Committees)
Mr. Frederick Hall reported from the Committee of Selection: That they had agreed to the following Resolution, which they had directed him to report to the House:—
That, after a Bill has been under consideration in Standing Committee, no application for changes in the composition of that Committee in respect of that Bill shall be entertained by the Committee of Selection.
Report to lie upon the Table.
Orders of the Day
King's Speech
Debate on the Address. [Sixth Day.]
Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment (8th July) to Question (2nd July).
"That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, as followeth:
" MOST GBACIOUS SOVEREIGN.
We, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, in Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to Your Majesty for the Gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament."—[ Mr. Snell. ]
Which Amendment was, at the end of the Question, to add the words:
" But humbly represent to Your Majesty that the failure of Your Majesty's Ministers to make any plain declaration of their policy in regard to the Safeguarding, McKenna, and analogous Duties, and to the maintenance of Imperial Preference, creates a condition of uncertainty prejudicial to trade and to the employment of the people."—[ Sir P. Cunliffe-Lister. ]
Question again proposed, " That those words be there added."
The Amendment before the House is one which, in form, is a vote of censure upon the Government, and I can hardly hope that any statement we shall hear from the Chancellor of the Exchequer amplifying the statements already made on the other side of the House will be sufficiently satisfactory to enable us to decide not to press this Amendment to a Division. At the same time, I hope I may be pardoned if I deal with this question this afternoon, not from the point of view of a partisan, but as far as I can in the spirit of that discussion in council, or in " study circle," to which the Prime Minister invited us. I should also like to say that I propose to confine myself to that aspect of the Amendment which deals with Imperial Preference and Empire trade. The question of Safeguarding the standard of living and of wages in our home markets was dealt with so adequately both' by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hendon (Sir P. Cunliffe- Lister), who moved the Amendment, and my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft), and in the admirable maiden speech made by the hon. and gallant Member for Midlothian (Major Colville), that I think I may be reasonably excused from dealing further with that side of the question.
Before I turn to the Imperial side of this subject, I should, however, like to make one or two observations of a general character upon the speech made yesterday by the President of the Board of Trade. The right hon. Gentleman made a speech which was not only graceful but also highly elusive. He reminded me of an expert figure skater circling round an orange on the rink, first swooping inwards, then darting outwards, never departing unreasonably far from the point or getting too perilously near it. The President of the Board of Trade began by skating round the McKenna Duties. He told us about their origin; he told us what Mr. Bonar Law said about these duties, and, when we were expecting to hear what the right hon. Gentleman thought about them, in a twinkle he was off on the outside edge to discuss the Safeguarding duties in the stricter sense.
The right hon. Gentleman had some interesting things to say about some minor changes which had occurred since the original application of these duties. For instance, he mentioned that the great differences of exchange were not as applicable to-day as they were then; he pointed out that as far as the duties had gone they did not constitute any material ground for international bargaining, and he led up to the summary that, such as they were, they had been carried out over far too limited a field from which to draw any definite conclusion. Having said that, the President of the Board of Trade skated away with the conclusion that these duties ought not to be proceeded with. I should have thought that a far more reasonable conclusion to draw from that limited experience was the one drawn by the Balfour Committee, a body appointed by the Prime Minister, comprising a number of leading members of the party opposite, inside and outside this House, which reported as follows:
The new system has gradually developed, and to-day we have a fiscal system, mainly based on Free Trade, but which includes a certain number of duties, some of them of a safeguarding character, some imposed partly for revenue purposes and, partly for safeguarding. On all those duties, as well as on the duties which are of a purely revenue character, we do effectively carry out the principle of Imperial Preference. We want to know whether that general policy is to stand, or whether there is going to be a reversion to the pre-War Gladstonian policy. That is the question we ask, and to which we are entitled to receive an answer. This House, the country, and indeed the British Empire, are entitled to have a reasonable answer now to that question. The President of the Board of Trade ended his speech on a note with which I agree in protesting against defeatist propaganda. I am entirely with the right hon. Gentleman in that sound but irrelevant statement. Optimism is no reason at all for not telling us what is the policy of the Government. Optimism is no reason for blind complacency. If we have confidence in ourselves, that is a reason for looking at the new situation with new eyes and taking action upon any conclusions to which the new facts may lead us.
4.0 p.m.
With regard to Empire trade and development, the President of the Board of Trade said very truly that a great change had come over all parties in the last ten years. I only wish that I could feel that that change had already gone so far that we in this Parliament, and at the Imperial Conference which will be held before many months are over, could approach this question with a united policy. The right hon. Gentleman also said that he and his Government propose to do everything in their power to promote closer relations within the Empire, and he reminded us that fiscal changes are not the only way in which Empire trade relations can be improved. I entirely agree with that statement. Fiscal preference is not the only way in which we can promote closer trade relationship within the Empire. All that we on this side of the House say is that it is a very important element—an element which, in view of the policy of the Dominions, you cannot leave out of the picture. Yet, even on these other aspects, I must confess that the right hon. Gentleman was disappointingly vague. He gave us no indication as to what lines the Government mean to pursue, and, at any rate, in some matters we have had answers which create considerable misgiving. There is one alternative method—that of the Empire Marketing Board. There is a method of procedure which is not only an alternative to fiscal preference generally, but the alternative to certain fiscal preferences which we had pledged ourselves at one Imperial Conference to carry out. It is not merely a financial policy which we are free to extend or diminish. It is part of a definite undertaking towards the Dominions which we are bound to implement to the full. Yet how unsatisfactory, how vague was the answer which the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave the other day. I venture to say that there is no work which has been done in recent years that has had more direct effect upon Empire trade and had a more profound psychological effect upon the attitude of the Dominions towards this country than the work done by the Empire Marketing Board,. Only a few weeks ago the Lord Privy Seal bore testimony to that work when he said:
Another matter is the Colonial Development Fund. We welcome that, and I hope to say a few words on that when the appropriate times comes. Another field for Empire co-operation is in the better distribution of our population. There we have, as the Lord Privy Seal very truly said, to do something which is of equal benefit to ourselves and the Dominions, and it is only on the basis of equally mutual benefit and not on the basis that we wish to get rid of our unwanted surplus of population, that we can build up a successful policy of migration. At the same time, I would ask the House to remember that you cannot treat migration by itself. If you want people from this country to go overseas and make a success of it, you have not only got to help them on the journey, but you have got to help them when they are over there. They can only succeed if they can sell the goods they produce, and the extent to which migration can develop in the Empire is directly conditioned by the economic expansion of the Dominions, and that means to a very large extent by the expansion of the Dominion trade in the British market. If there is one truth which has been burnt into my mind by 10 years work in connection with this matter of migration, it is that it is useless to think you can make progress on this question unless you make simultaneous progress with the whole problem of Empire trade. The right hon. Gentleman the Lord Privy Seal is going over to Canada in a few weeks time to discuss these matters with the Dominion Government. We all wish him well; we all hope that his mission will prove successful, but what I do say is that the success of his mission would be assured from the outset if he could go to Canada and say that this country is not only prepared to maintain the preferences which Canada enjoys in this market to-day, but that it will approach an Imperial conference with a free hand, ready to agree to any scheme of mutual trade which could be found to be mutually beneficial. I, myself, am perfectly prepared to leave the fate of such a discussion entirely to the right hon. Gentleman. I believe that if he were left to settle with the Canadian Government a Treaty of migration and trade, he would fix up something which would be beneficial for the Empire as a whole, and would certainly give a full half of the benefit to the people of this country. I fear, however, that he will go, not with a free hand, but with a hand already spoiled by the attitude that may be taken by the Government in the House to-day, prejudiced by the dead hand of fiscal superstition, not by that honest difference between those who, broadly speaking, are in favour of Free Trade, freer trade within the Empire, lower tariffs in the world as a whole, and those who may be Protectionists, but by the dead hand of that doctrinaire dogma which says that no practical consideration, no bargain however reasonable can be entered into which involves departure by one hair's breadth from these musty shibboleths.
We have in this House, at any rate, some whose attitude on these questions does give us reason for anxiety. I am not worried so much by the fact that hon. Members opposite consistently voted in the last Parliament against every extension of Preference which we introduced. What makes me more anxious is the attitude which the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer took up in the last Labour Government when he resisted with all the vehemence of his personality even the reduction of duties to give more substantial Preference—not a question of imposing new duties, but a mere reduction beneficial alike to the Dominions and the consumer—resisted it with all the emphasis and influence he could muster; and there are things he has said more recently which make me feel that it is not only a theoretical objection he holds to Empire trade, but that he does not understand or appreciate what that trade means to-day. I will take the liberty of quoting from an article which appeared from his pen in "John Bull" on 9th February of this year entitled, " Is the Empire bleeding Britain?" I do not suppose he was responsible for that title, but I think it is by no means an unfair summary of the article itself. He said:
Yet the right hon. Gentleman talks as if we were giving all the favour and they were doing nothing in return. When he talks about " the farcical nature of the alleged preferential advantage," does he realise that over £28,000,000 of British manufactures entered Australia last year duty free, while similar goods paid a duty of 10 per cent, or 15 per cent, duty if they came from foreign countries? It is that reason which accounts for the fact that 85 per cent, of Australian imports of cotton goods, as against 50 per cent, in the case of the Argentine, comes from this country. After all, the purchaser is the only real and ultimate employer, and why pour insult and contumely on your best purchaser? He talks as though Australia were doing us a wrong because she only buys £69,000,000 worth of goods from us, as against £66,000,000 from the rest of the world. I may add that that £66,000,000 includes large quantities of raw materials such as oil, petrol and other things which we could not send her. But, taking the figures as they are, to what foreign country in the world can the right hon. Gentleman point which buys that proportion of our goods? If Australia followed the same economic policy as foreign countries generally, if she bought from us a 10 per cent, average of imports, which is all that foreign . countries buy, she would be buying to the amount, not of £69,000,000, but, at the most, £13,000,000.
Let me give the House a few figures only, to bring home to them the real importance of this Empire trade, of which the right hon. Gentleman speaks so lightly. Take Australia and New Zealand alone, with 7,500,000 people, at the other end of the world. They bought from us last year £75,000,000 worth of British goods, almost all manufactured, almost all giving employment in the great industrial centres of this country. Compare with that the whole of Western Europe—France, Belgium, Italy, Spain and Portugal—115,000,000 people, who bought less than £70,000,000. Germany, Poland, Austria, Hungary and Czechoslovakia, with a population of 150,000,000 or so, bought less than £52,000,000. The whole of foreign North and South America, with something like 130,000,000 or 140,000,000 people, only bought £51,000,000 worth of our goods.
The countries of the Empire are by far the best purchasers that we have. Take them in detail from the point of view of some of our industries. The Empire to-day takes fully one-half of our manufactured exports. It takes—I give the 1927 figures—over 60 per cent, of all our exports of iron and steel; it takes 68 per cent, of all our exports of electrical machinery; it takes 72 per cent. of all our exports of motor vehicles; it takes 79 per cent, of all our exports of non-ferrous metals. Following it even more closely in detail, and taking steel girders, 92 per cent, of our export of steel girders goes to the Empire, and Australia and India each buys more than the rest of the outside world put together. Of our steel plates, 81 per cent, are sold in the Empire, and, again, Australia buys more than all foreign countries put together. Eighty-four per cent, of all the blankets that we sell go to South Africa, which also buys more than all foreign countries put together. Seventy-four per cent, of the carpets that we sell go to the Empire, and Australia, again, buys more than all foreign countries put together; 86 per cent, of our flannels are sold in the Empire, and India and Canada each buys more than all foreign countries put together. It is one thing to be sarcastic and scornful, but it is better to base your scorn on facts instead of on prejudice.
It would have been far better if the right hon. Gentleman had taken the line which his own Balfour Committee has taken—the line of appreciating the value of this trade, and of urging that every consideration should be paid to its maintenance. I hope I may be pardoned if once again I quote a few extracts. I would remind the House that the Balfour Committee was a Committee appointed by a Labour Government, and largely manned by Socialists and Free Traders. In their Final Report, they say this: Athanasius contra mundum! They proceed:
I pass to another point in order to bring out the fact that Empire trade is even more valuable to us than the mere export figures indicate which I have just quoted. After all, from a national point of view—and I hope that hon. Members opposite as Socialists do look at this question from the national or collective point of view, and not merely from the point of view of the interests of the individual trader—what matters to us is not bur export trade alone, but our export trade considered in conjunction with our import trade. It is not the mere gross figures of our trade that matter, but the character of our trade.
The President of the Board of Trade, in his speech yesterday, spoke more than once about the "aggregate volume of commerce," and used that phrase in contexts which clearly implied that he regarded that as being in some sense a measure of the volume of employment. If the House will bear with me, I should like to give him some reasons for considering that the total volume of trade bears very little relation to the employment afforded, but that what matters is the character of the trade regarded on both sides of the equation. After all, we import and re-export a very large volume of goods every year, running into many tens of millions. Nobody suggests that that trade represents anything more than an infinitesimal volume of employment in handling it; there is no creative, productive employment in that trade. But the same principle applies over a much wider field. If we export £1,000,000 worth of blue serge, and import in return £1,000,000 worth of grey serge, because there is some slight difference in the dyeing of the article, or whatever the reason may be, I do not say that that trade has not some element of profit, but it does not represent any really great volume of production; the serge might equally well have been dyed grey at home and retained at home, and the volume of employment would have been the same. What this country lives by, what enables us to sustain a population, not of 15,000,000, but of 45,000,000 people in these islands, is the fact that we are enabled, through our foreign trade, to draw into this narrow area an immense volume of those foodstuffs and raw materials which we cannot produce here at all or in sufficient quantities.
As long as we can get a sufficient supply of these, there is no limit to the population or the standard of living or the employment that this country can sustain. The difficulty is, how to secure them by the sale of our manufactures abroad. Substantially, the only trade that really gives basic employment is the trade in which we sell the things of which we can produce an almost unlimited surplus, namely, industrial skill embodied in manufactures, and buy in return the raw materials and foodstuffs in which we are deficient. From that point of view Empire trade is infinitely more important than European trade, and, indeed, than all foreign trade put together. Of our exports to the Empire, 91 percent, are manufactured; of our imports 91 per cent, are raw materials and foodstuffs. If I may quote some figures for the year 1927, the five leading countries of the Empire —India, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and South Africa—bought from us £207,000,000 worth of manufactures. They sent to us in return £27,000,000 worth of manufactures, of which a very large part consisted merely of such elementary manufactures as refined copper and so on. In any case, there was a clear net balance, on the trade in manufactured articles, of £180,000,000 in our favour, available in the form of credits to enable us to buy the raw materials and foodstuffs which this country requires. Taking our trade with the five leading industrial countries of Europe—France, Germany, Holland. Italy and Belgium—in the same year they bought from us £86,000,000 worthy of manufactures, and they sent us £143,000,000 worth. They, out of that trade, had credits free, to the amount of £57,000,000, with which to buy the raw materials and foodstuffs which they needed, but where was the advantage to this nation, as apart from purely individual advantage, in that transaction?
I venture to suggest that, while not a complete test, yet a very fair test of the employment value of the different branches of our trade would be supplied if in each trade we deduct our imports of manufactures from our exports of manufactures. That net result is a figure which, I believe, is a far better indication of the employment value of our trade than that aggregate volume of commerce of which the President of the Board of Trade spoke. Let me take in this connection the figures of the Empire as compared with those of the whole outside world. I take, for the purpose of showing how our Empire trade is not only important in itself but is steadily growing, the figures for 1913 and for 1927. In 1913, our net export of manufactures to all foreign countries put together amounted to £80,000,000, after subtracting our imports from those countries from our exports. Our net export of manufactures to the British Empire amounted to £164,000,000, being, even then, more than twice as much as our net export to foreign countries. In 1927, our net export of manufactures to the British Empire had gone up from £164,000,000 to £242,000,000. What of our net export to foreign countries? It was £80,000,000 in 1913, and in 1927 it was minus £500,000. The balance had entirely disappeared, and the whole of our foreign trade was trade in which we imported more manufactures than we sent. I venture to say that, from the point of view of creating employment, we could far more easily afford to Tie cut off from the whole world ouside than from the British Empire.
I must stress this point, that what matters to us is the character of the trade. The problem with which we are confronted is that the channels of our import trade, which ought to be free to bring in all the complementary imports which our industries need—the life-giving, industry-sustaining foodstuffs and raw materials—are being clogge3 more and more by the competitive imports which the deliberate policy of other countries is forcing upon us. I suggest that we have a reasonable right of selecting our own imports—that, to use a phrase which the right hon. Gentleman opposite employed more than once in his speech, and which he used in his closing words, we want fiscal freedom; we want fiscal freedom for Britain as a nation.
Have we got that freedom to-day? Fiscal freedom presumably means, in the right hon. Gentleman's words, not mere absence of prohibition, but absence of restrictive taxation differentiating unfairly between ourselves and others. Where in the world has the British trader, and the working man, whose agent he is, fiscal freedom to sell his wares? In what foreign country does he receive fiscal freedom? Does he enjoy it even in his own country? I very much doubt it. In this country, the cumulative burden of taxation through all the various channels constitutes a veiled excise on our production, which as much diminishes its fiscal freedom as if we were to levy a tariff outside each factory on all British goods which are brought to market. None of that tariff is levied upon our foreign competitors. Contrary to all the canons of Free Trade finance, the excise is not counterbalanced in this case by any countervailing Customs duty, with the result that it inevitably imposes a deliberate preference and encouragement to our foreign competitors as well as a steady drain upon the revenues of the Exchequer. We have protection and preference in this market, but it is for our foreign competitors against ourselves. The only part of the world where we enjoy some measure of fiscal freedom is in the British Dominions. There, for a large part of our trade we are not even asked to bear any share of the burden of their revenue, and where they do levy taxes they put us in a favoured position as compared with other countries. There is at any rate greater fiscal freedom even to-day than we enjoy anywhere else. Would it not be possible to try in the Empire to attain to an even greater measure of fiscal freedom than we enjoy to-day?
Let me give one example, at any rate, of fiscal freedom—the United States. It was quoted by the Secretary of State for War last night as the greatest Free Trade area in the world, and so it is, not only in the number of its population, but in the immense consuming power of its markets. The United States to-day are a greater Free Trade market than the whole of Europe would be if it came within a single tariff. It is not only the greatest Free Trade market; it is the greatest fair trade market. It is a market within which there is keen competition, but competition between men who work for the same kind of wages and have the same standard of living, competition which, because it eliminates unfair, accidental, incalculable elements, puts the greatest premium on enterprise. There you have 48 great States, which have pooled their markets in such a way that in any one of them an industry can be started and developed to its utmost, knowing the market of all the other 47 States is open to it, subject only to competition under fair and equal conditions. Its competitors pay the same wages and work under the same standard of labour. It can draw on the other States for capital, for men, for everything that is needed. Is it impossible to create something of the same sort in the British Empire? We have more than four times the area and resources of the United States; we have a far greater population; ability and skill no less than theirs. The trouble is that we have Keen working in narrow, watertight compartments. Surely the time is coming when in every part of the Empire people will begin to realise more than they did before that a policy of watertight compartments, " narrow local policy, whether Protectionist or free importing, is not enough. Conditions to-day are infinitely more favourable for a closer policy of Empire union than they have> ever been before. For one thing, the last decade has witnessed an enormous development in the resources and productive capacity of the Empire. Nothing struck me more in travelling round the Dominions last year than the higher plane of agricultural and general development which every Dominion has reached.
There is a further consideration which is not altogether inapplicable to this matter. There was a time when any movement towards a more comprehensive Empire trade policy was viewed with some suspicion in some quarters of the Dominions, where they thought it was part of a centralising policy endeavouring to get the Empire back under the old Downing Street umbrella. Those fears were dissipated for good and all at the last Imperial Conference. Everyone realises now that the closer union of the Empire can only be a closer union on the basis of free and absolutely equal and unfettered cooperation. Again, not only the higher tariff which the United States have imposed, not only the Agricultural Belief Act, which is calculated to act not only as a protection to the American farmer but as a subsidy to American exports, but the whole immense scale of American development is bringing home to people all over the world, and not least in the British Empire, the fact that to-day we have to work on a larger scale. In every Dominion I visited I was told of the boundless possibilities of development and that there was room for hundreds of thousands of immigrants—if they could find markets. When I came back to this old country I found exactly the same situation. There is no limit to the productive power of the country, its organising ability and the growth of the population—except the difficulty of finding markets.
Has not the time come when we might combine our markets and so get a wider area of real Free Trade? You may not be able to get complete Free Trade in the Empire, but let us take the steps which bring us nearer to it. To-day the disposition to meet us half way is stronger than it has ever been. It is stronger not only for the economic reasons I have quoted, but for the sentimental reason that, for the first time in the last few years, the Dominions have begun to feel that this country does want to co-operate. The preferences that have already been established by us are by no means contemptible. I have visited more than one flourishing community which has sprung into existence in South Africa, Australia and other parts of the Empire entirely owing to what we have been doing. Over and above the actual value of it is the feeling throughout the Empire that the War taught us to shift from our old attitude of self-satisfied complacency, and made us more ready to co-operate with others. Surely that is a situation in which it would be unwise to do anything to offend Empire sentiment. Only a few months intervene before the next Imperial Conference. Is it not possible for the Government to say they will go into that Conference unfettered, with a free hand, freer perhaps even than we had, to do that which is best for the workers of the country? If they cannot see their way to impose any new duties, cannot they at any rate extend still further the preference on existing duties? There is a very considerable range in that direction. Take sugar. There is an urgent need there to help some of our hard-pressed Colonies. Could not the right hon. Gentleman make a gesture— after all his leader is very fond of gestures—to the whole Empire by a slight extension of the sugar preference, an earnest, not that we are going to change our whole fiscal policy—I am not asking that—but an earnest of good will within our existing system to do that which may be possible. That, I think, is a question we are entitled to ask and on which we have a right to exact a clear answer.
I know the right hon. Gentleman will retort by asking: " Have you been sufficiently clear in your policy?" I could answer legitimately by saying it is for the Government of the day to make clear its policy and for the opposition to hold its hand till the proper time comes, but I am not going to ride off on that line. I will say perfectly frankly that it is, in my opinion at any rate, because we were not clear enough on that issue, because we lacked somewhat in boldness of conception and clearness of statement, that we sit on these benches, and that a great opportunity which might have been ours is today in the hands of right hon. and hon. Members opposite. From the point of view of the interests of the country, I only hope they may rise to the height of that opportunity. At any rate, for myself, I can say clearly that it is my pro- found conviction that there is no other really effective way of dealing with our economic difficulties than that of giving security to the work of our workers in their home market and taking advantage of the boundless opportunities that are offered to us in the British Empire. All other measures, helpful though they may be in a small way, are, as a solution of the great problem, mere delusion and futility. That issue, to my mind at any rate, transcends all others in politics. By that issue I believe we should stand or fall. By it we should judge who are to be our allies and who are to be our opponents.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill), at the close of a brilliant debating speech a few days ago, said he hoped and believed the Floor of the House would prove broader than the Gangway, adding that the gulf between the Socialist party and the rest of the country was in any case impassable. That was the expression of a purely personal point of view. It is not the point of view that I hold nor, to the best of my belief, is it held by the majority of the party to which I belong. To my mind, there is a certain amount of unreality in all this talk of an impassable gulf between individualism and Socialism, of a capitalist system of civilisation threatened with complete and irrevocable annihilation if once the party opposite gets a clear majority. I cannot altogether share those somewhat mid-Victorian apprehensions. To me, the difference is largely one of degree. The last real individualist left in this House was Mr. Austin Hopkinson. While there are revolutionary Socialists on the Back Benches opposite, I have observed that when, in the process of political gravitation, they descend to the Front Bench, they leave a good deal of the lighter and more gaseous part of their political equipment behind, and often display a quite unsuspected residuum of solid common-sense. The difference is one of degree. We shall fight and contend seriously on many great issues on which the bias of hon. Members opposite towards collective management will be opposed by our bias to individual freedom, governed, if necessary, by some measure of public control. But the difference will largely be one of degree, just as there is a reasonable difference between the practical Free Trader and the practical Protectionist, the advocate of few duties and low duties, and the advocate of high duties. Many of us may take a view more in one direction than another. The difference is one of degree.
Where there is really a fundamental difference, an unbridgeable gulf, is between those who believe in practical measures, who are prepared in a new world, in a situation of unparalleled difficulties, but also of unexampled opportunities, to take whatever practical measures the situation demands, and those who, against all reason, without inquiry, and in face of all the facts, are determined to veto every measure that departs in the slightest degree from the shibboleths of their ancient obsolete and dismal theories. There is the real gulf. That is what will continue to divide us from Members below the Gangway and from a great many hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite, whose Socialism I am far less afraid of than their doctrinaire Liberalism. But if the practical Members of the party opposite are prepared to take a lead in this matter, are prepared to do what the country and the Empire needs to-day, then they can reckon on a very wide measure of support from these benches. They may possibly then count on a longer lease of life than even they have so far anticipated. If not, we on this side shall once more have the ball of opportunity at our feet and shall, I trust, be worthy of that opportunity.
The concluding sentences of the right hon. Gentleman's speech have been, perhaps, the most interesting part of a speech, all of which entitles it to serious consideration by all the Members of this House. The right hon. Gentleman's closing part has shown that the differences in this House are bounded neither by the Gangway, nor by the Floor, but that they exist on the Front Opposition Bench. But those differences had already been manifested this afternoon before the right hon. Gentleman rose to speak. The late Chancellor of the Exchequer was here a moment or two before the right hon. Gentleman rose, but he did what he did on every occasion in the late Parliament when the question of Protection was about to be discussed; he rose and ostentatiously left the House. May I, first of all, congratulate the right hon. Gentleman upon being one of the few survivors of the wreckage of his party in Birmingham after an Election fought upon the very issue which he has so eloquently put before the House this afternoon. The right hon. Gentleman thinks that the failure of that policy is due to the fact that it was not sufficiently advanced, and that if his party had gone to the country upon a full blown Protectionist programme they would Dot have been occupying that side of the House this afternoon. I would fain wish that the right hon. Gentleman and his right hon. Friend the late Minister of Health would prevail upon the Tory party to embrace a full blown Protectionist programme. I should like to see them go to the country upon such a programme at the next election. I have no doubt that if they do that they are doomed for an interminable period to occupy that side of the House and in much smaller numbers than to-day.
The right hon. Gentleman has devoted a great part of his speech to a subject in which he is deeply interested, and in which I know he does most fervently believe. It is always a pathetic sight to me to see a man so fervently believing and so eloquently expressing a creed which is so fallacious and so unsound as that which the right hon. Gentleman has been putting before the House this afternoon. But about the sincerity of the right hon. Gentleman's beliefs there can be no doubt. Although' he himself has devoted a great part of his speech this afternoon to the question of Imperial Preference, in view of the terms of the Amendment before the House I "will say something about the early part of that Amendment. The speech of the ex-President of the Board of Trade, who opened the Debate yesterday, and the speeches of nearly all the Members who have spoken from that side make it necessary that I should call the attention of the House to the actual terms of that Amendment. It calls for a more explicit declaration of the policy of the Government upon Safeguarding and upon Imperial Preference, but I would ask hon. Members to note very carefully that there is no expression in that Amendment of any support of Safeguarding or of what are called the analogous duties.
I wonder how far the right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken and his colleague, the right hon. Member for Edgbaston (Mr. Chamberlain), represent the views of the Front Bench and the Tory party in this House as a whole. One might almost be justified, when one sees from the terms of this Amendment no declaration in favour of Safeguarding, in supposing either that they were afraid to raise that as a direct issue in the House or that the state of things in the Tory party consequent upon the result of the General Election is uncertainty and chaos. We were told by the late Minister of Health some days ago that the slate has been cleaned. The Tory party and the late Prime Minister have been released from all their promises and pledges upon this matter of fiscal policy. They are now free to write anything upon it, and probably the explanation of the fact that there is no declaration in this Amendment in favour of Safeguarding is that they are waiting upon the discussions which no doubt are taking place in the party as to what shall be written upon the slate in future.
I said just now that this Amendment asks from the Government a clear and emphatic declaration as to what they propose to do in regard to the Safeguarding Duties, the McKenna Duties and the analogous duties, and also in regard to Imperial Preference. The right hon. Gentleman complains that my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade yesterday was evasive and elusive. I do not accept that charge in the least. I think that my right hon. Friend was perfectly clear. At any rate if I fail to make the position of the Government clear upon this matter it will be not from any lack of desire to do so. If I fail it may be attributed to my verbal incapacity. The Amendment talks about the McKenna Duties, the Safeguarding Duties and the analogous duties, and I want to submit to the House that there is no analogy between the McKenna Duties and the Safeguarding Duties. It is upon that fact that I should base the right of the Government to make no announcement as to the date when they propose to deal with the repeal of the McKenna Duties.
5.0 p.m.
I could spend a great deal of time this afternoon in quoting from statements which have been made by the late Prime Minister, by the late Chancellor of the Exchequer and by some of their predecessors to prove that the McKenna Duties stand in an entirely different category from the duties which had been imposed under the Safeguarding procedure. What was the Prime Minister's statement on the first day of our meeting here in regard to the decision of the Government with respect to the 'Safeguarding Duties, the McKenna Duties and what the opposition calls the analogous duties? First of all, my right hon. Friend announced that the report of the Committee which had recently been inquiring into the application from a section of the woollen textile trade would not be adopted. That was the Prime Minister's first declaration. The second part of the declaration was that the Safeguarding procedure would be scrapped; that no further applications for an inquiry would be received. The third part of the declaration was that if these duties or any of the duties still remain when the time comes for their expiration, they will not be renewed. A further point in the Prime Minister's statement was—I suppose it is this which hon. and right hon. Members opposite think justifies their charge of ambiguity and uncertainty in the policy of the Government—that we reserve freedom to repeal these duties before the time fixed for their expiration if, considering the financial position and considering all the other aspects of the question, we think it desirable to do so. It is quite true, and I think it will not be denied by those who have been in the House of Commons from the inception of the McKenna Duties and have followed the debates upon the duties in several Parliaments, that when they were originally imposed they were not imposed for protective purposes. They were always understood to be duties imposed for special purposes during a time of special national emergency. It was understood, and often expressed by Conservative Ministers, that the duties were not of a permanent character and would be removed when circumstances had changed so as to justify their removal.
Let me give the House one little bit of history which strongly supports, indeed, absolutely proves the truth of the statement that I have just made. Until 1919, these duties were renewed annually. In 1919, there was a Conservative Chancellor of the Exchequer, the right hon. Member for "West Birmingham (Sir A. Chamberlain). At that time these duties were renewed in every Budget. I want the House particularly to note this point, that the date for the expiration of the duties was not immediately after the Budget, but 1st August, that is, some three months after the Budget had been introduced into this House. If a Budget in those days had proposed the repeal of the McKenna Duties they would, under the then existing law, have operated under three months notice. But what did the Tory Chancellor of the Exchequer do in 1919? He brought the date forward from 1st August to 1st May; that is, a day or two after the usual date for the introduction of the Budget. What was the reason that he gave for making that change? He said: " I want to mark off these duties from all other duties. I want to mark their provisional character." If those duties had been removed during that period, there would have been no notice. The Chancellor of the Exchequer could have come to this House on 29th April and announced the repeal of the duties, and that repeal would have become operative next day.
It was in order that a Chancellor of the Exchequer might have that power that the Tory Chancellor of the Exchequer, in 1919, altered the date of the expiration of the duties. Now, hon. and right hon. Members on the Front Bench opposite have the audacity, which amounts almost to hypocrisy, to come here and talk to us about the uncertainty which exists. Before I repealed the duties, in 1924, they had operated under the conditions that I have just described. I repealed them at the end of April or, rather, I gave notice in the Budget at the end of April. Reverting to the position as it was before the right hon. Member for West Birmingham made the change, I gave three months notice that the duties would expire on 1st August. I admit that experience proved that I had made a mistake. It would have been much better had the repeal of the duties taken place immediately the declaration was made in this House. I had representations from every section of the community saying that they would very much have preferred that the duties should have been repealed without notice.
The late Chancellor of the Exchequer, the right hon. Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill), made another alteration. In his first Budget he reimposed the duties. He gave two months notice. I ask hon. Members and right hon. Members opposite to show me that there had been any ' expectation that the McKenna Duties would be reimposed in the first Budget of the late Chancellor of the Exchequer. There was no expectation. That proposal was the one thing in the Budget of 1925 which came as a public surprise. Every other proposal in the Budget had been accurately anticipated by the Press. Had the Tory party at the General Election of 1924 given any pledge that the duties would be reimposed? Had they? Did any hon. or right hon. Member opposite give such a pledge? Not one of them, I gather, did give that pledge. Did the late Prime Minister the Leader of the Tory party say that he would re-impose the McKenna Duties? No, he did not. I remember what the right hon. Gentleman said in a Debate which took place in this House, on the proposal to re-impose the duties. This is what he said:
You said you would do it. You said so at the. Election.
We gave warning. It was known that if we were returned these duties would be repealed. That is the difference between us. That is the justification for our refusing to give the actual date of the repeal. The Tory party reimposed the duties without a mandate from the country and without any pledge that that would be done. They did it without notice. Suppose I repealed them in the next Budget. The hon. and gallant Member for Chelmsford (Colonel Howard-Bury) said that I stated we would do it. If I did, can there be any uncertainty. Will the country be amazed if I propose the repeal of the duties next April?
Yes, because that would be carrying out your pledge.
We are, therefore, in a totally different position from that which was occupied by the Tory party when they reimposed the duties in 1925. Can there be any doubt about our pledge in regard to these duties, and what the Amendment calls " analogous duties." In the Prime Minister's statement the other day it was said that the country at the recent General Election had given an emphatic verdict against Protection. Does any hon. or right hon. Member opposite deny the accuracy of that statement? One of their colleagues, the late Minister of Health, did so the other day. He said that that statement was totally untrue. Why talk like that when everybody is perfectly aware of the truth of that statement? Where are the arch-priests of Protection who were in the Tory party in the last Parliament? Where is Mr. Storry Deans, who gingered up the flagging enthusiasm of the hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft) at the Tory party conference? He fought his election in Sheffield upon this issue and the extension of Safeguarding, with the result that the place which once knew him now knows him no more. Where are the Members for Birmingham? Where is Sir Arthur Steel-Maitland? Examine the election results and you will find that in every constituency in the country where u Safeguarding Duty was in operation the protectionist candidate was overwhelmingly defeated or there was an overwhelming vote cast against Safeguarding.
What about Yeovil?
Tiverton has three industries which are safeguarded.
What about my constituency? I fought my election on Safeguarding.
The hon. and gallant Member for Yeovil (Sir F. Nelson), speaking last night, gave his return as a victory for Safeguarding. He had two Free Trade opponents, and the question of Safeguarding was made the main issue. There was an overwhelming Free Trade vote.
What about King's Norton?
I will tell the hon. Member about King's Norton. Will anybody deny that the McKenna Duties, as applied to motor cars, was not the main issue in King's Norton? Sir Herbert Austin made it so. What was the result? The Tory candidate polled 14"500 votes and the two Free Trade candidates polled 20,000 votes.
Who won?
We won several seats in Nottingham and several in Sheffield, polling, I believe, a larger vote in Sheffield than the votes of the other two parties combined, and this is the most significant thing—
I would not interrupt the right hon. Gentleman if he did not put out such definite challenges, ask people to reply, and then when they do not, say that they therefore admit it. The right hon. Member has mentioned Nottingham. Is it not a fact that one of the Labour representatives for Nottingham adopted the safeguarding policy?
I know nothing at all about that; the hon. Member is in the House and can speak for himself. Just before the interruption of the right hon. Member for Hillhead (Sir B. Home) I was going to refer to something about which I have some knowledge, and that is the West Biding of Yorkshire. Owing to the imminence of the Report of the Safeguarding Committee it was made the great issue of the election. Every Tory candidate devoted the whole of his speeches to Safeguarding in general and safeguarding the woollen trade in par- ticular. With what result? The late Prime Minister came down to Bradford and devoted a good part of his speech to the question. In the textile districts of the West Riding of Yorkshire we carried every seat with one exception, Pudsey and Otley, and even in Otley there was a majority of thousands of votes for Free Trade. The total Free Trade votes cast in the textile districts of the West Riding was over half a million, and the total Tory vote was only just over 200,000. There can be no question that whatever we do and whenever we repeal these Duties we have a justification which the late Government never had in re-imposing them. Let me go back to the McKenna Duties. The late Prime Minister, in the words I have quoted, says that he has never regarded these Duties as other than revenue Duties; he has never regarded them as protectionist Duties. The late Chancellor of the Exchequer has said that dozens of times in this House. He said it seven times in the Debate on the comparatively minor issue of the imposition of a Duty on tyres. What did the late Chancellor of the Exchequer say when re-imposing these Duties. He said:
The history of the re-imposition of the McKenna Duties was repeated in successive Budgets, when the duties were extended to commercial motors and in the following year to tyres. It was done without any mandate; and again the late Chancellor of the Exchequer said that they had nothing to do with Protection. When he proposed the duty on commercial cars he said that he did it for two reasons only. He said that he was offended by the lack of symmetry and proposed to extend the duties to commercial motor-cars for administrative convenience and for revenue. He gave no notice; he did not warn the country. These duties became operative a few days 'after the announcement had been made in this House. So much for the McKenna Duties. I want to be perfectly clear, so that no succeeding speaker can make the charge against us which the right hon. Gentleman made. We decline to make any statement in regard to the McKenna Duties before the Budget statement is made.
Next in regard to the Safeguarding Duties. They stand in a different category. They have been imposed for a definite number of years. Why was a limit of five years placed on the operation of these duties? The late President of the Board of Trade, who spoke yesterday, said that the analogous duties to the Safeguarding Duties which are referred to are the Key Industry Duties. The reasons given by the late Prime Minister when he proposed a time limit for these duties in 1921 apply equally to the time limit that was fixed under the recently imposed Safeguarding Duties. What reasons did the late Prime Minister give to the House in 1921? This is of very great importance in considering the matter which is raised in the Amendment, and it is a justification for the attitude which the Government has taken up in regard to these duties. The right hon. Gentleman said: at the expiration of the five years. At any rate we have carried out a part of the intention or implied intention of the late Government, because we have said that if any of these duties should remain for the full statutory period, they will not be reimposed.
A further question arises. What are you going to do in the intervening period? Are you going to leave these trades in a state of uncertainty? Do you propose in the next Budget a repeal of these duties? I am not going to answer that question; we reserve exactly the same liberty, and I think with almost equal justification, to defer a statement in regard to that matter until the Budget of next year is opened. " Ah! but " it is said, " trade is in a state of uncertainty." Whose fault is that? Uncertainty is always inseparable from a tariff policy. Therefore, if there be uncertainty, the fault is not our fault; the blame is not our blame; the blame is on the shoulders of those who have placed certain industries in this country in this precarious and uncertain position. Tariffs can never give certainty; tariffs can never bring stability. We remember the howls from the Opposition benches yesterday in regard to the proposed increase of the American tariff. Tariffs are always rising. That is one of the strongest reasons against Protection, because it proves that tariffs never protect; there is always a demand for raising the tariff wall. Therefore, there being uncertainty in trade, the blame is not ours, but is on the shoulders of those who imposed these duties.
We have authority for this statement. If I or my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade were to introduce a Bill in the autumn to repeal all these duties, we should have ample justification for doing so on the strength of statements made by Members of the late Government. What did the late Chancellor of the Exchequer say in 1925? He said:
And raw materials.
Yes, and raw materials. And those are the only two things that the Colonies and Dominions can send to this country. Therefore I want to ask hon. Members opposite whether that is their policy. I gather that it would be the policy of two right hon. Gentlemen whom I see opposite, if they could get the support of their party. Well, that is a policy to which we shall never subscribe. The right hon. Gentleman who preceded me talked about our being the slaves of musty and outworn theories, and of our mouthing shibboleths of a by-gone age. Our faith is a faith based upon generations of practical experience, and supported by economic truth. Therefore, the right hon. Gentleman may abandon the idea of a rapprochement between his party and. our party on those lines. Now in regard to the existing preferences. Apart from the preferences under the McKenna Duties there are really no existing pre- ferences in which the Dominions are particularly interested. I have some recollection of a remark which was made by one of the Dominion Prime Ministers about " these pettifogging preferences " which were given to the Dominions and were really of very little benefit. We can give no preferences to the Dominions unless we tax food and raw materials and we shall be no parties to a policy of that sort. Therefore, that restricts the field very considerably. There are preferences, as I have said, under the McKenna Duties upon motor cars and one or two other things. There are cars manufactured in Canada but nobody knows better than the right hon. Gentleman about the penetration of American capital and American enterprise in Canada and nobody knows better than the right hon. Gentleman that American motor manufacturers have planted their works in Canada.
I made a statement and gave a pledge on behalf of the previous Labour Government that, as long as those Duties, upon which preferences were given, were in operation, those preferences would be maintained. The right hon. Gentleman has referred to the fact that we opposed an Amendment to increase the amount of the preference in particular cases, but he knows quite well the reason why we opposed that Amendment. It was simply because I had given away something like £30,000,000 of revenue—mainly in reduction of food taxation, and, therefore, it was impossible in that Budget to make any further concession. I want to put a question to the right hon. Gentleman. Had he not better talk to some of his own colleagues about the importance of maintaining preferences on goods coming from the Empire? The late Chancellor of the Exchequer abolished the Tea Duty in the last Budget and with it swept away one of the greatest preferences in existence. That, of course, concerned India, the most populous part of the British Empire and that part of the British Empire which holds infinitely greater possibilities for trade than all the Dominions; and it was never mentioned once in the course of an hour's speech by the right hon. Gentleman. His party in the last Budget swept away that preference. Did he approve of that? He did not say and I do not expect him to say now.
We were pledged when we were in office to maintain these preferences as long as there were duties upon these articles, but I hope—and I am not anticipating any Budget statement—that before we leave office, if ever we do leave office, we shall have swept away all duties upon food—upon sugar, upon dried fruits and upon all articles of food which are subject to duty at the present time and en which there are preferences. And of course when those duties are swept away the preferences will naturally go with them. I do not give one inch to the right hon. Gentleman in his desire to help the Empire and promote friendly relations with our fellow-countrymen in the British Dominions across the seas. I do not know that I have not made as many speeches in my life in favour of Empire development as the right hon. Gentleman himself; and I have not confined the possibilities of Empire development to Australia, New Zealand and Canada but have extended it to those parts of the Empire which with their teeming populations with a low standard of living offer, as I say, untold, unimaginable opportunities for the development of trade.
I hope the right hon. Gentleman will answer the query which I put to him as to whether the Government will keep the Empire Marketing Board going on its full scale.
I intend to say a word about that subject before I finish. I am very sorry to keep the House all this time. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman would also like me to say a word about another observation which he made in passing with reference to the difficulties which some sugar producers in the Colonies are experiencing at the present time. We are giving that matter our very careful and, may I truthfully add, our sympathetic consideration, but the right hon. Gentleman must not expect that we shall deal with this question by way of preference. We shall not, but we are seeing if it is possible to help in any way which will not merely enable them to tide over their present difficulties, but will put them in a financial and manufacturing position in which they will be able to withstand world competition better in the future. As the right hon. Gentleman has asked me about the Empire Marketing Board, I might as well deal with that point now.
We have no intention of abolishing the Empire Marketing Board, and the fact that we have appointed the right hon. Gentleman a member of the Board shows that we have no intention of abolishing it. I have no doubt the right hon. Gentleman will bring all his enthusiasm for Empire development to the service of the Board and will contribute very usefully to its decisions and deliberations. A reply to a question the other day appears to have given dissatisfaction to the right hon. Gentleman, but that was purely a financial question, and dealt solely with the finances of the Empire Marketing Board. I simply said that I would see whether its administration was being economically conducted and whether the amount of money at its disposal could possibly be spent in some more useful way. I hope that reply is satisfactory to the right hon. Gentleman.
We want, as I said just now, to promote the closest commercial relations with every part of the Empire. What I am about to say may be information to the House, but at any rate it is an earnest of our intentions and of our good will. I dare say all Members of the House have seen, within the last week or two, that Mr. Bruce in Australia and, I believe, the Prime Minister of Canada have been making public statements as to the need for the different parts of the Empire getting together to see what can be done to foster inter-Imperial trade. His Majesty's Government have received these opinions with very great pleasure. We have held out open hands to them and we are, at the present time, I do not say engaged in negotiations, but we are in communication with them to see whether it may be possible to hold an Imperial Economic Conference to discover what we can do to extend inter-Imperial trade.
I do not want to go into a lot of figures to refute some of the assumptions which the right hon. Gentleman made and some of the conclusions at which he arrived, but I trust that by giving one set of figures I may remove an impression which the right hon. Gentleman may have given as to the possibilities of the expansion of Dominion trade. I hope I shall not be misunderstood. I hope the impression will not be conveyed that I am trying to minimise the importance of the development of trade with the Dominions when I say this, but I think it is a fact which everybody who knows the circumstances of those Dominions must appreciate and agree with—that the development of those Dominions, Australia, New Zealand and Canada, must, at the best, be slow. You have a great Continent like Australia which has only a population of 7,000,000 and I believe that population is only increasing at the rate of 2 per cent, a year. You have a vast Continent like Canada with about the same population, you have a country like New Zealand which is the size of this country and yet has a population which is only that of Glasgow. The development of those Dominions, whatever you do to encourage and stimulate migration must be slow and, therefore, we cannot look to any very large increase of trade under the most favourable circumstances in those parts of the Empire.
Take the case of Australia. Australian imports from Britain in 1924 were nearly £61,000,000 and in 1928 that figure had dropped to £55,690,000. Take Canada and the United States. I have spoken about the penetration of Canada by American capital. The contiguity of those two countries must ensure a very large amount of trade between them. The imports of merchandise into Canada from the United States for the 12 months ending March last amounted to £178,000,000. That is to say Canada bought that amount from the United States in those 12 months. What did Canada buy from the United Kingdom? Just over £34,000,000 or about one-fifth.
Does that include oil? [An HON. MEMBER:" Neck oil! "]
6.0 p.m.
That part of the Empire which the right hon. Gentleman quoted least—India—is a far better customer to this country than Australia or Canada or New Zealand. Australia took in 1928 between £50,000,000 and £60,000,000, but India took £83,000,000. I believe it was the right hon. Gentleman the ex-President of the Board of Trade yesterday who gave the figures per head of the purchases of Australia from this country. His figures were slightly wrong, but it does not materially affect his point, which was a very good point and one which I have very often made. In 1924, Australia took £10 9s. per head of its population of British goods, and that had dropped to £8 17s. in 1928. Now, they take a high percentage because they are a white people, a people with a high standard of living, but I am inclined to think that, apart from the slight natural increase of population, the consumption in Australia of British goods has reached for the time being saturation point. It is not so in regard to India. India takes a far larger amount, but that represents only 6s. per head of her population. Australia, £9; India, 6s. If you raise the purchasing power of the Australians by 6s. a head, you get a total increase in trade of £2,000,000, but if you raise the purchasing power of the hundreds of millions of the people of India by 6s. a head, you increase your trade by £83,000,000. Therefore, I say that here you get the problem of Imperial trade. There is an opportunity, but that can only be done by our helping India along the lines of the policy which was put forward by my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal. Lend her your capital. Instead of the peasants ploughing with wooden ploughs, give them steel ploughs. [An HON. MEMBER:" They will not accept them! "] They can be educated to accept them. Give them motor tractors. They may sometime be educated even to the point of using motor tractors. At any rate, do not close your eyes to the possibilities.
My reply, I am quite sure, is very disappointing to the right hon. Gentleman. Indeed, his first sentence was that he did not expect a reply that would be satisfactory, and that he was going to take the Vote of Censure, as he described it, to a Division this evening. I have no doubt what the result of that Division will be. The Division will reflect the opinion and the decision expressed by the country at the recent General Election. I was just going to say that the right hon. Gentleman will be disappointed, but I want to assure him that we are not behind him in our desire to promote Imperial trade and Imperial development, though we may differ as to the best means by which that agreed purpose and desirable object can be achieved. I have devoted the greater part of my remarks this afternoon strictly to dealing with the terms of this Amendment.
I began by saying I would try frankly to tell the House really what the Government's position was and what our declaration meant, and I hope I have succeeded in doing so. We shall make no statement of what we may do in regard to the McKenna Duties until the appropriate occasion comes, that is, when the Budget is opened. The Prime Minister's statement with regard to the Safeguarding Duties, even if hon. Members opposite think it was not so, was explicit. If these duties or any of them run their full statutory period, they will not be renewed, but if, in the meantime, on a review of the financial position of the country and all the relevant facts, we come to the conclusion that it is desirable to propose to the House of Commons that they shall be repealed, we shall come to the House of Commons and we have authority to do that in the declaration of the Prime Minister.
I am very much obliged to the House for having listened to me for so long. It is the first time I have had an opportunity of addressing this new House, which is so different in its composition and in the relations of the parties from the old House of Commons. I have been very much impressed by the debating power which has been displayed by new Members of the House who have already taken part in our Debates. I have not had an opportunity of congratulating them individually, but I hope that collectively they will accept my sincere congratulations upon this very good impression which they have made upon the House of Commons by their speeches.
May I interpose for one moment and for one purpose only? First, may I thank the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer for his very kindly reference to myself, which I appreciate, and, secondly, may I correct an impression which the right hon. Gentleman gave with regard to certain figures quoted by my right hon. Friend yesterday? Those figures were absolutely accurate in every particular. What my right hon. Friend said yesterday was that the number of operatives employed in the lace-making firms showed an increase of 33 per cent, since these Safeguarding Duties were put on. That is literally and absolutely true, and I will give the figures. The numbers engaged in lace making for the June quarter of 1925 were 1,217, and those engaged according to the return for the March quarter, 1929, were 1,628. That is practically an increase of 33 per cent. The remainder are made up of those employed in lace marketing, in lace bleaching, and in finishing. Therefore, the statement of my right hon. Friend was absolutely true. There is this further fact with regard to those engaged in these subsidiary occupations, and that is, that whereas previous to these duties being imposed they were almost entirely engaged on short time, now they are engaged on full time. Moreover—and these are the statistics of the Board of Trade itself—the average sales in the home market for the year ended June, 1928, were 125 per cent, in excess of those for the year ended June, 1925.
The right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer truly anticipated the effect of his speech when he anticipated that there would be disappointment. Those of us who have known him for many years in this House were not in the least surprised. We knew what he would say, we knew how he would say it, and we knew that at the end he would not have contributed one feather's weight to the main issue that is before the House. It is not a serious matter for us in this House that the right hon. Gentleman should have disappointed us, knowing him as we do, but it is a serious matter for hundreds of thousands of people in this country who are hanging on his words and anxiously wondering what is going to happen to the duties which have been in effect in their particular industries in recent years.
The right hon. Gentleman spoke for 50 minutes on the text that there is no analogy between the McKenna Duties and Safeguarding Duties. He seemed to me, looking at the main question that is before the House and the country, to labour a point which was relatively unimportant, and he worked up in the end to a repeated justification of any step he might be inclined to take in repealing these duties on the ground that certain action had been taken by a previous Government. After 50 minutes' speech he came to the main burden of the speech of my right hon. Friend the late Secretary of State for the Dominions, a speech made through personal experience of the Dominions such as has not been gained by any other Secretary of State that we have known, by personal travel through the Dominions, and by very long experience of administration, and I thought that the level of the right hon. Gentleman's reply to my right hon. Friend was very low indeed and not worthy of the speech which was made from this side.
He tells us that while the Government have every intention of fostering the trading relationship between this country and the Dominions, they will definitely not do it by a process of Preference— he is perfectly clear about that—nor will he have any part in the aspiration of those who to-day are beginning to reach to that magnificent conception of a Free Trade Imperial Union. The right hon. Gentleman referred to the advocacy of such a policy by Lord Beaverbrook, and as he disagrees with Lord Beaverbrook in what he is doing, I say, " More power to Lord Beaverbrook." I am delighted to find that one of our leading journals is fostering, strengthening, and encouraging a movement towards a conception of this kind, for nothing will bring such light to the people or such strength to the movement as a lead by the influential Press of this country. Do not let us baulk at it because it is immense and because we are continually told that it is impracticable. It is astonishing what earnest men with a sound cause can achieve round a conference table.
On the question of Safeguarding, I have listened to the speeches in this Debate with great interest, but I have listened to the whole Debate with great discouragement, because, as we come to the concluding stages of this Debate, I cannot believe that anybody in this House is satisfied with any progress that they think we may have made. We have listened to speeches, some of them eloquent and all of them fervent, and I find myself asking whether any single argument has been produced by that side of the House which has not been used in similar debates on this subject for the last 70 years. Has any new treatment of this subject been applied which will meet the immensely changed conditions that have come about in those 70 years? Has anything emerged from the Government side which brings us nearer to a solution of this time-worn problem? From our side, and out of the very limited opportunities to which we deliberately restricted ourselves, we have produced definite facts based on practical tests; but we are still baffled and hampered by the doctrinaire economists who, drawing on our prosperous experience during the Victorian era, when we were the workshop of the world, are still able to mislead the people by the threat of increasing prices and of injury to exports and so to shipping, by the proposed reduction of the carriage of goods overseas.
We are met with the same indeterminate theory that has always characterised the advocates of a policy which to-day in this country is meaningless. Even the President of the Board of Trade, who is a man to whom we are accustomed of all men in that party to look for sound reasoning, meticulous fact and good judgment, in one of those eloquent speeches to which we are accustomed to listen with pleasure in this House, calmly meets us with this:" But you have no proof; your experiments have been too limited, and so limited that you cannot say what the ultimate result of a wide system of tariffs would be." Are we asking for a wide system of tariffs? Did we in our Election programme even name a single article on which any Conservative Government would have imposed a tariff? If we did, I am not aware of it. All that we intended to do was to improve the machinery to administer the Safeguarding procedure. Is it unreasonable for me to say, in reply to the speech of the President of the Board of Trade, that at any rate the eating of the pudding by those people to whom we have given it has so far proved on the whole satisfactory? Can we not claim that at the best employment and trade have been improved and that prices have been reduced, while at the worst the theory that import duties inevitably raise prices has been completely disposed of?
I supose that hon. Gentlemen opposite will go into the Lobby to-night, as their predecessors have done for generations, casting their votes for what they are pleased to call a principle, ignorant of or deliberately ignoring the fact, and regardless of the uncertainty and the anxiety that they are causing in industry. So we are treating this question which is of such vital importance to the people, as a pawn in the party game—an expression used by the Secretary of State for War when he wound up for the Government last night. The spectacle of this newly-elected body of men quite unconcernedly proclaiming that they will not extend, that they will not continue and that they may even, without the adequate notice pleaded for by my right hon. friend the Member for Hendon (Sir P. Cunliffe-Lister), repeal these duties— such a spectacle, if it were not so solemnising would be a little ludicrous. Do they realise that hundreds of thousands of people directly concerned in these trades are already anxious and distressed? These are the people who will be disappointed by the speech which we have just heard from the right hon. Gentleman. Can the Government produce any body of opinion directly concerned with these trades, apart from the small body of merchants who employ relatively no labour, requesting the repeal of these duties? Can the President of the Board of Trade or the Chancellor of the Exchequer say that they have a single request from any admissible body of opinion in the trade concerned, that these duties should be repealed? I think not. They are taking this extraordinary attitude against all reason, and purely for party purposes, and I am convinced that many an hon. Member on these Benches to-night will be voting against his better judgment.
It is on that aspect of this problem that I will venture to throw out a suggestion. Right hon. Gentlemen and hon. Gentlemen opposite say that we have no proof. We have surely done our best within our limitation to obtain proof, and that proof is reiterated from these Benches. I do not believe that we will ever make any advance in dealing with this problem of Safeguarding of industry—and hon. Gentlemen opposite must remember that they will never get rid of this problem— until we change our approach to it, and I believe that it would be of immense value to the House and to the country if we could remove discussion in the early stages as far as possible from the arena of party politics. You cannot have a more telling indication of the necessity of something of that kind than this Debate. To do this, I would set up a court completely outside Parliament and away from any Government Department—a tariff court presided over by judges with High Court status, these judges in turn to be advised by expert trade assessors drawn from a panel, the whole procedure of such a court following the practice of a court of law when dealing with applications for or against tariff assistance to trade.
We have already adopted the principle of trying a case. The ad hoc committee has not been the best method; one can say that frankly, and, in the event of the return of the last Government, advances to a permanent tribunal had been foreshadowed by my right hon. Friend, but even that suggestion, in my view, did not go far enough, having regard to the extraordinary importance of the subject, nor did it get away from the political arena, because the suggestion that was to be followed was that this tribunal was to be established by the President of the Board of Trade, and it was to follow very much, as to personnel and operations, the kind of committee that has been set up under the Merchandise Marks Act. If I am right that the hearing of these cases should be removed further from the political arena, it must be removed also from the Government Departments. No one has a more profound admiration of, or confidence in, the ability and integrity of the officials of the Board of Trade than I have after a long experience, but it is not in the nature of the case that the work that is done by those officers can remain uncoloured by the political views of Ministers; and, even if it were possible that they could be unpolitical and uncoloured, the reports or the views of a tribunal constructed in that way would never be free from suspicion, either real or feigned. The rulings of a committee carry nothing like the weight in Parliament or the country that come from the rulings of a High Court Judge. It would be obviously necessary for the Court to have available the machinery and the full assistance of the Board of Trade, but neither the Board of Trade nor the Minister should have any more jurisdiction over such a court than the Board of Admiralty have over the Admiralty Court.
After all, this matter of protecting certain trades by tariffs is very largely a question of justice between one trade and another, or between trader and con- sumer. One of the conditions precedent to the imposition of tariffs, as we approach the matter in this country, is the assurance that tariffs will not exert an adverse influence on a co-related industry. I suggest this procedure, not only because it will help to remove the issue from the political arena, but because I believe the legal mind is the best mind to form a just and equitable estimate of the position. It is the custom for these cases to be presented by counsel, and a judge is the best man to weigh the evidence. Again, there is the important consideration of continuity of practice. The personnel of such a tribunal dealing continuously with the same type of conflict, would gain immense experience and would establish an organisation whose life's work would be to study this question in all its aspects from the point of view of justice as between one industry and another, and the bearing of the problem on national wellbeing.
I am not suggesting that the function of Parliament should be impaired or interfered with. Under this scheme, Parliament would be better equipped to deal with these matters, for surely no reasonable man or woman can remain unaffected by the opinion that has behind it the tradition, the prestige, and the practice of the British High Court of Justice. In this way, the matter would be to a large extent taken out of the arena of party politics, and I do not believe that it is possible for us to get further unless we are able so to remove it. Under the scheme which I suggest, reason would prevail, and we would have a better opportunity of dealing with relative speed with the most important matter with which it is within our power to deal in this House without the influence of any party. The policy of import duties in this country is either right or wrong. I am quite willing—and in saying this I have a certain volume of opinion with me —to submit Safeguarding to such a court as I have described, retaining my absolute freedom of action as a Member of this House. If the Government will do that, they will have my enthusiastic support, for I believe that they will in that way provide a common ground on which can meet reasonable men, who to-day, owing to the uncertainty and the fog that surrounds this problem, are thrown back for a deciding factor on nothing but party-allegiance.
In rising to speak on this Amendment, I want to put before the hon. Members of this House the position of the town which I represent. The town of Sunderland is, perhaps, a more distressed area than any town represented by any other Member of the House. For the past four years, it has been steadily deteriorating in regard to employment, and poverty has been increasing The effects of Safeguarding, which hon. Members opposite would have us believe are so good, have not been seen in that distressed town during the four years in which Safeguarding has been in operation. In the early months of the present year, one in four of the insured workers of Sunderland was unemployed. There are some 900 single men receiving outdoor relief, and there are thousands who are unemployed who are receiving either unemployment benefit or relief or neither. Looking at those conditions, one cannot believe that Safeguarding, as it has been in operation under the late Government, has been of any value to that distressed area There are there, in the main, three forms of industry—the coal industry, transport (mainly of coal), and last and most important, shipbuilding and ship repairing. When we come from an area like that to this House, and hear this Amendment debated, we ask you to look at the Amendment from the point of view of its effects on such a poverty stricken town as that which I represent.
It is quite plain that Safeguarding as already in existence has not benefited that part of the country. In order that it might produce any effect, more commodities would have to come under the Safeguarding regulations. There are two main possibilities. You might safeguard food, and you might safeguard iron and steel. If you safeguard food, the poverty of Sunderland will be greater than ever. It will not be a case of the last straw breaking the camel's back, because there will not be a straw left; all will have been eaten. With heavier taxation of food, people could not support even the low standard of life which is theirs today. Then take the possibility of safeguarding iron and steel. An hon. Member addressing the House yesterday evening for the first time, and addressing it with a fluency and vigour which we all admired, said that if the manufacturers of steel ship-plates could get a higher price for them that trade would immediately show an improvement.
If they succeed in getting higher prices for steel plates the shipyard trade of Sunderland will be completely ruined. Go to the managers, and the owners of the shipyards, and they will tell you that what they need more than anything else is to be able to turn out their ships at a lower cost. If we set aside the cost of labour which is already extremely ill-paid, the wages of shipyard workers having gone down very greatly in recent years, the main cost of ships is undoubtedly to be found in the steel. Increase the price of steel, and, as the managers of the shipyards rightly say, it will be impossible for them to go on building ships at all. It is true that at the moment many of the slip-ways are full. It is a well-known phenomenon in shipyard towns that there is always good trade just before an election, and it may, of course, frequently overlap a little when an election is over, but it is undoubtedly a fact that unless the trade of this country with countries abroad improves, there is very little hope for the shipyard industry. And the final deathblow to that great industry would come by the Safeguarding of one of the most important of its raw materials. To those who look to safeguarding as a means of improving the amount of employment and the standard of life in a town such as I represent, 1 say we can very clearly prove that such a measure would not bring about the good which I am quite sure hon. Members opposite, as well as those on this side of the House, would desire.
I would like to touch on the question of Imperial Preference from quite a different point of view. As an Australian in this country I, like many others, have suffered from the way in which the party opposite take all the Dominions under their wing. It is not true to think that Imperial Preference is regarded by Australians as a great gesture of brotherliness from this country. Though I was a school girl at the time, I well remember the awful gloom that fell over my own family when the news came that Mr. Joseph Chamberlain had embraced the policy of Imperial Preference. It was not regarded by all Australians, and it is not to-day regarded by them, as an act of patriotism. It is regarded by the vast majority of them as due entirely to a feeling on the part of certain sections of the community here that they will be able to make more money and improve their economic position if they put on duties and then lower them for certain countries by the method of Imperial Preference. No Australian is so foolish as to think that any other reasons than those of internal concern here have led to that policy being adopted by anybody. After all, Australians come from the same stock as the people of this country, and unless a little extra sunlight and a little extra heat have a bad effect upon the brain, their brain power is probably very similar to that of the people of this country, and they can see through the situation as well as can others. To the Australian there is also this remarkable fact about Imperial Preference, that it makes necessary the taxation of food, for the very simple reason that no British Government has ever thought of giving Imperial Preference upon manufactured goods from the Dominions.
I think it would be very interesting to know whether those who support the policy of Imperial Preference would, in the event of the safeguarding of iron and steel, give an Imperial Preference to iron from India, which is produced under sweated conditions, with very poor wages, and, indeed, terrible standards of life among the people engaged in producing it. I do not know whether they would be willing to give Imperial Preference to that particular class of goods from India if they were successful in ruining the shipbuilding trade by a safeguarding duty raising the price of steel in this country. To an Australian, and I (must stress that point, because I believe there are very few Australians in this House, the real co-operation which can be offered is co-operation of the kind described by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The Australian, like anybody else, can tell the difference between the sort of synthetic patriotic syrup of Imperial Preference and the real honey of genuine co-operation. They taste very different, and the one has a much better effect on health than the other. The way in which Australia looks at Great Britain is a little different from the way in which Great Britain looks upon Australia. What the Australian wants to see in the Mother Country is prosperity and a high standard of life, a standard of life as high as Australians seek to secure in their own country. It is more to the advantage, not only the sentimental advantage but the practical advantage, of the Commonwealth of Australia that this country should have overflowing wealth and prosperity, and be able more effectually to use some of its surplus in assisting in the development of the younger land. For all the reasons which have been advanced in this House, we do beg of its Members to realise that if they want to help the most distressed areas of this country, areas which are dependent upon the coal trade, mining, and shipbuilding, it will not be done by the policy which this Amendment puts forward, but rather by the development of all Dominion and world resources in active co-operation, one country with the other.
May I be allowed to congratulate the hon. Lady on the speech which she has delivered, not only for the command which she obviously has over her subject but for the Antipodean air which she has imparted to our Debates? We hope that on future occasions we shall hear more of her Australian point of view translated, or transfused, if I may say so, with a little north country light. I am quite sure that the Australian point of view will be none the worse for the trials through which it will pass in the port of Sunderland. The speech made this afternoon by the Chancellor of the Exchequer is one of the most important to which we have listened since this House reassembled. As I understood him, he declared that the McKenna Duties, which are now under discussion, and the Safeguarding Duties, were, all alike, to be subject to the reticence which every Chancellor of the Exchequer observes before he displays his Budget. But his bias against the McKenna Duties, the Budget Protective Duties and the Safeguarding Duties was undoubted, and, to tell the truth, he did not take very much trouble to disguise it. He spoke with the greatest contempt of all of those duties, and to some extent of their authors.
I much regretted that the late Chancellor of the Exchequer was not here. He would have enjoyed the speech of his successor, and he might quite conceivably have enjoyed the speech of the late Secretary of State for the Colonies, who made some very pointed references to those members of the Conservative party who had the audacity still to hold Free Trade, or modified Free Trade, views. The late Chancellor of the Exchequer is responsible for more of those protective duties than any man who has held that office for the last 50 years. Now, as we look back over the right hon. Gentleman's achievements, I think it is safe to say that little or nothing has been gained by British industries as a whole by the complicated machinery of Protection. The result has been that some of our ports have been clogged up, and in some important quarters our entrepôt trade, which was of great importance to the commercial classes of this and other countries, has been destroyed. It is really surprising that there should be so many members of the Conservative party who still hold to the old idea that you are likely to add to the volume of the trade of a country by putting taxes upon it.
The most serious national problem before us to-day is that of unemployment. That is a very serious matter, not merely for those who are unemployed, but for those who are dependent upon trade. You cannot isolate an evil of this kind; it spreads not only into commerce, but it has a social influence, and it will be many long years before we get rid of the evils which have grown up during the long spell of unemployment which we have experienced. I very much doubt whether we shall know the actual price we have to pay for unemployment until the younger generation has grown up to maturity, and then we shall realise how much we have lost by their lack of work. There can be no better way of testing Free Trade and the policy of Safeguarding and Protection than by asking what effect it is likely to have on any of the great industries now suffering from serious depression of trade.
The hon. Member for Sunderland (Dr. M. Phillips) drew our attention to the fact that in the coal, iron, and steel, and marine engineering industries there is the greatest depression at the present time, and that, as a consequence, thousands of people are out of work. We have been told that on the North-East coast there are shipbuilding areas in which as many as three out of five of the population are either directly or indirectly in receipt of public assistance. We all know what unprecedented hardships are being experienced by the miners of South Wales, and it is a fact that in Lancashire never since the cotton famine has there been so much suffering as there is at the present time. I do not think that sufficient sympathy has been shown to those engaged in the heavy woollen trade in the West Riding of Yorkshire where I know many firms are embarrassed and are not making any profits, and where thousands of men and women have had no employment from month to month.
What effect would the policy of this Amendment have on those industries? You cannot devise any scheme of Safeguarding or Preference which will help the coal trade. I know that the hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft) believes that you will set all the miners to work if you only safeguard the iron and steel trade. No doubt the hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth really believes that, but I think he is about the only man in the country who does believe it. [HON. MEMBERS: " No ! "] Then let us examine this question at close quarters, and consider how far it is possible by safeguarding iron and steel to add to the demand for coal so as to give employment in those great areas where so many men are out of work.
The areas which have suffered most from unemployment are those which used to be mainly engaged in the export trade, such as Durham, Northumberland, and South Wales, where the loss of the export trade has been greatest. All sorts of artificial schemes have been applied to those areas. The Five-Counties Scheme prevented Northumbrians getting their natural markets, and I think we should be fools if we thought that that was sufficient justification for setting up a tariff in those areas, and yet that is the logical conclusion of the arguments in favour of Preference. Nothing can be done in the export trade by taxation that will add to its prosperity. Unless we can produce coal more cheaply and ship it at prices below the price at which it can be bought from Poland, France, America, Japan or South Africa, we cannot retain our export trade in coal. [An HON. MEMBEE: " What about reparation coal? "] Reparation coal has been nothing but an unmixed curse, and that is another good example of the invasion of the politician into the region of industry which has proved disastrous.
Let us consider for a moment the areas which used to keep our miners employed in the export trade. At one time one of our best customers in the export coal trade was Italy. At the present time, reparation coal competes with our own, and in Italy water power has largely taken the place of coal. In the North of Italy many of the railways are running by electricity, and in the case of one quadrilateral there is not a single steam locomotive running on any of their lines. During the War the Coal Controller thought it was his duty to squeeze every penny he could out of the Italian customer whereas a, shrewd merchant would have nursed him. The result of our policy in the coal trade has been that the Italians have embarked upon a policy of harnessing their water power which would not have happened if something like a reasonable price had been charged for the coal sent out to Italy after the War. In the North, the mining areas have for many years been dependent upon the Scandinavian markets for their export trade in coal, and there again water power has taken the place of coal. The artificial arrangements which have been resorted to have provided a degree of competition unequalled in the history of any one of the ordinary safeguarded trades. There has been established an unnatural competition, and this has led to thousands of men being out of work in Northumberland.
In the East there used to be a large trade in Welsh coal, but that trade has been displaced by coal produced by cheap labour in other countries under conditions which would not be tolerated in this country. At the present time, the Natal coalfield supplies nearly all the ports of East Africa. In this and other ways the large export trade which used to be done in the South Wales coalfield has been cut off, and you cannot regain those markets by Safeguarding. I do not know any scheme of Safeguarding which would not tend towards losing our present markets, and you might push tariff so far as to destroy some of the markets we now have. In what way is Safeguarding going to help shipbuilding? The hon. Lady the Member for Sunderland said that the reason shipbuilders could not get orders enough to employ their people was that they could not produce the ships cheap enough, and she stated that, if any addition were made to the cost of raw materials, the shipbuilders would be less able to supply their customers in competition with shipbuilders in Holland or Germany. In that argument the hon. Member for Sunderland was right. In what way is Safeguarding likely to help the shipbuilding industry? What is obviously in the mind of the hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth and other hon. Members opposite is that they want to see an extension of Safeguarding to the iron and steel industry, because they believe that the application of that principle will improve that particular industry, and that it will benefit the mining areas, because their policy will necessitate a large internal consumption of coal.
Hon. Members who support Safeguarding argue that if you stimulate the iron and steel industry by Safeguarding, you will shut out the importation of 3,000,000 tons of iron and steel into this country every year, and on the scale laid down of four tons of coal being necessary to produce one ton of steel it is claimed that the iron and steel industry would consume 10,000,000 tons of coal more per annum, which I think is a shameless exaggeration. What would happen with regard to iron and steel? Supposing you safeguarded iron and steel and shut out the importation of 3,000,000 tons per annum. Taking the whole import of iron and steel last year, there is not a single article which you would shut out which is not actually the raw material of some important industry in this country. Take pig iron, for example: Pig iron is the raw material of a very large section of the iron trade, and they cannot get on without it. Even Mr. Joseph Chamber lain, in his palmiest days, never suggested putting a duty on pig iron coming into this country. Take the case of ferro alloys, ingots, blooms and billets. Would you close the doors to the importation of those articles? Take, further example, steel bars, sections, girders, hoops and castings: Are you going to shut those articles out under Safeguarding? There is not one of those articles which is not the raw material of some important industry in this country, and, if you are going to shut out 3,000,000 tons of iron and steel, you are going to shut out the raw material required by hundreds of industries in this country.
7.0 p.m.
Hon. Members who support Safeguarding say that if you give the iron-master protection from his foreign competitors he will be able to keep his blast furnaces going for 365 days in the year without letting them cool down, that the rolling mills will be packed with orders, and that that is the only way by which you lower the cost of production. Let him reverse the order. If he can lower his cost of production to such an extent as to enable the shipbuilder to buy his home-made ship-plates at a lower price than the present price, then let him start off and run his plant at full blast now. If effective under a system of Safeguarding, then surely also it will be effective under a voluntary system of extension. It would be taking a risk, it is true, but do not imagine that with the Safeguarding of industry you are not taking 'a risk. That is taking a political risk, which is even more serious. You may safeguard an industry in one Parliament, and it will be taken off in the next. There cannot be one decisive victory; something which will never be altered again. That is contrary to all the experience of mankind. The fact is that immediately a trade begins to depend upon political assistance for its prosperity it has spelled its own downfall. The only way that we will be able to hold our own in the markets of the world and supply industries with the material required is by the application of efficiency, by putting our house in order, by thinking and seeing how to improve our methods and by following the example of enterprising men in Germany and the United States, where they have gone in for larger plant. Let me put a single case. One of the things which places us at a great disadvantage in the matter of competition is that we have not enough mechanical handling of heavy metal. In the United States there is 121 horse power per man employed in handling these heavy metals, while we use only 9 horse-power. Let our 9 horsepower be raised to 12, and it will bring us nearer to competing with them in the markets of the world.
I turn now to another aspect of the same problem. One of the reasons why we are not able to produce as cheaply as the United States and Germany is because our blast furnaces are too small. In the United Kingdom at the present time we have 159 furnaces in blast, and the output is 6,700,000 tons a year. In the United States, with only 219 blast furnaces in blast, their output is 40,000,000 tons a year, and in Germany, with 102 blast furnaces in blast, the output is 12,000,000 tons a year. The capacity per furnace in the course of the year in the United Kingdom is 45,000 tons, in Germany 120,000 tons, and in the United States 181,000 tons. Here is a field for rationalisation which so many people are talking about who do not appear to understand it. Rationalisation in this industry would do more than could any temporary tariff or any political assistance that might be devised and could be so easily repealed. There have been a great many changes made in the iron and steel industry since the war. The gas burners have improved, two stoves doing the work of four. Formerly 40 per cent, of the blast furnace gas was wasted, and now very little is wasted. The design of the furnaces has improved enormously, gas production; coke ovens have been put in good order, and that is the explanation of the larger output which is now being achieved by the British iron and steel industry. The fact is that they have settled down to the simple and healthy problem of saving themselves. That is the only means by which they can regain their hold of the world's trade. There have been times in the history of this country when it was difficult to maintain our position, but we have to face crude, hard facts, and we have to do more hard thinking and working than has been the custom in recent years.
I turn from the iron and steel trade and from the general statement, which I hope I have justified within a limited compass, that nothing is to be gained in the great industries where unemployment is most rampant by a Safeguarding policy, and I come to another aspect of this tariff problem. I heard my right hon. Friend the Member for South Molton (Mr. Lambert) catechised yesterday as to the increase of prices brought about by Safeguarding. I have never attached much weight to the fact that prices went up or went down. I agree with the Goschen dictum that, if you put a tax on a commodity and the price is rising, the tax will accelerate the rise, and, if the price of that commodity is falling, it will delay the fall. That was a doctrine which was accepted by the late Chancellor of the Exchequer and advanced only a short time ago. One thing is certain that the alarm expressed in some quarters about the possible repeal of these Safeguarding Duties shows clearly that Safeguarding Duties have an effect upon price. Why be alarmed at their repeal if they have no effect on prices? Do they anticipate that if repealed there will be a fall in price? The fact is they are afraid that if the Safeguarding Duties are repealed prices will fall, which shows clearly that prices are bolstered up by Safeguarding. I do not know if they are higher now or lower than they were four years ago. Every time one endeavours to come to close quarters with that inquiry one finds the issue dodged. In the matter of cutlery, there is such a variety of quality and such a demand for cheap stuff that you find it difficult to arrive at any conclusion. I only state the general doctrine that, if there is real alarm about the withdrawal of these Duties, it must be because Members are afraid that on withdrawal there will be a fall in price.
I was sent here, like many others, to represent the consumer, and the consumer has been neglected in the past on these tribunals. I say that, if there is to be a fall in price from an artificial to a natural level, the consumer is entitled to that advantage. If we look closely into the recent inquiry into the woollen industry, we see that the case of the consumer was never put before the tribunal. Let it be stated here, that neither the wages of our working-classes nor the income of the lower middle classes are such that they can afford to pay one penny on cutlery, clothing, or any other commodities that might be saved if we were rid of these artificial increases. The fact is that we have found by our European experience that wherever tariffs are higher the cost of living is higher. The International Labour Bureau at Geneva has shown the value of real wages is lower in Protected countries than in Free Trade countries or comparatively Free Trade countries. In spite of our little tariffs, the fact remains that we are the most Free Trade country in Europe. The International Labour Bureau take us, therefore, at the level of 100, and they say that the value of real wages is 100 in London, 87 in Amsterdam, 67 in Berlin, and 55 in Paris. The fact is that the value of real wages rises as you have a greater degree of Free Trade.
Has the right hon. Gentleman the relative figures for the United States?
No, but I am talking of the Continent of Europe. I am coming to the United States before I sit down, when I will suggest to hon. Members above the Gangway that they should follow the example of the United States and go in for a large Free Trade area with no barriers as between States covering a continent as large as the United States, and perhaps they can persuade Australia to get rid of her tariffs and Canada and India as well and achieve Free Trade within the Empire. But it is not so easily achieved. Australia and Canada and India are capable of looking after their own interests in their own way. What do the hon. Gentlemen wish to get information about? They want to know whether real wages in the States are higher than here. I have not the figures, but I am entitled to think that they are not, when you take into consideration the cost of living. Then it is difficult to get at the total figure of the unemployed in the United States, but the number runs into millions even now.
What about the unemployed in the European States which compete with this country?
In France, you have an abnormal condition. You have a limited population there, and they have not enough of their own race to go round. In the South of France, industry is largely conducted by people who are not French; they have not enough labour. The limitation of her population is not due to Protection. We have our own requirements to meet. We are the greatest exporting country in the world. We have great industries, like shipbuilding and mining, which are dependent upon Free Trade. You cannot get cheap production without Free Trade. We have an enormous overseas traffic which cannot be retained except by a policy of economy.
I turn away from the real value of Free Trade to the working class of this country, as expressed in the value of their wages, to another aspect of the question. We have dealt with the question of employment very briefly, and have said something about the value of real wages; let us now look at the question of the total volume of trade. I heard the late Secretary of State for the Colonies jeering at the President of the Board of Trade because he talked about our aggregate trade; but what on earth is the right hon. Gentleman at the Board of Trade for but to look after our aggregate trade? He is not there to look after special interests; it is not his business to be using his back-stairs for the purpose of his friends; his job is to look after the interests of industry and of the whole aggregate trade of the country. I commend him for having said that it was his first duty to look at the aggregate trade of this country.
The aggregate trade of this country depends very largely upon foreign customers, and foreign customers who are not under the British flag. I shall speak with the very greatest respect of those self-governing Dominions which are quite entitled to look after their own affairs in their own way, and will never surrender that independence. We are delighted to work with them. I cannot imagine any greater pride that a business man can have than in finding that he can do the maximum amount of his trade with people who belong to the same race as himself, who speak the same language as himself, who use the same coinage as he uses, and in having all those sentimental attachments which go such a long way in individual and personal intercourse. Of course, we want to keep that. I would go further, and say that I am quite sure that there is no one in any quarter of this House, certainly not since the last General Election—there was one conspicuous example who used to be here before that, but he has gone—there is not a single Member in this House who would not do everything in his power to bring closer the trading relationships of our Dominions and the mother country. And they would not restrict their enthu- siasm to the Dominions; they would extend it to India and to the Crown Colonies, which are rapidly rivalling our Dominions in the importance of their trade.
We all, naturally, want to see an extension of our trade and commerce with the Dominions, with the Crown Colonies, and with India. How is that to be brought about? That is the question between us. There are hon. Gentlemen above the Gangway who think that it can only be done by a system of preference. There are many of us who think that Preference, which is bound to be precarious because it is political, may ultimately do more harm than good. Moreover, I go a step further, and say that I can imagine, and I have actually seen in experience, some preferences which gave a benefit to a very small group of individuals in one Dominion. Not the Dominion as a whole, but half-a-dozen merchants, were able to get the whole advantage out of those preferences, and we, the taxpayers here, had to pay for it. We are not so rich that we can afford to give away these gifts to favoured individuals.
If we are to proceed along the lines of taxation, and to find only in taxation the means by which we can bind the Empire together, I should take a very gloomy view of its future. I welcome every Imperial conference, and I believe that the closer the Ministers of the self-governing Dominions come to the Ministry here at home, the more they get into touch with public opinion in this country and realise our point of view, the more they will understand that it is out of no enmity to them, it is out of no jealousy of them, that we say that we cannot afford, charged as we are with the necessity of looking after the working-class of our own country, to give away revenue to favoured individuals, and we cannot do anything in the region of preference, which would be likely to do harm to our own industry and commerce here. There is nothing unreasonable in that; there is nothing unfriendly in that. Like a great many Members of the House, I have had the closest possible relations outside this House, and outside official gatherings altogether, with men engaged in various Walks of life in New Zealand, Australia, and Canada, and, let me add, South Africa, which, oddly enough, the present Chancellor of the Exchequer omitted when speaking of the self-governing Dominions; and in every one of those cases there are ties which are not fiscal and which are very difficult to define, but which have a most potent influence in business life. They are there; let us foster them by every means in our power.
One of the risks that we run is the risk of misunderstanding between the Dominions and ourselves, and that can only be overcome by bringing representatives closer together and letting them exchange views and talk perfectly frankly one to the other. Let me take, as an example of perfectly frank talk, what we must say about the interests of our country on the subject of food and raw materials which, owing to our circumstances, we are bound to import. If we compare the quantities of our food and raw materials imported from foreign countries and from Empire countries, we reach this very remarkable result, that £337,000,000 worth of food is imported into the United Kingdom from foreign countries, and £201,000,000 worth of food is imported from Empire countries, in other words, about 40 per cent, of our foodstuffs comes from within the Empire, and 60 per cent, comes from outside. I have no doubt that, in the natural passage of time, there will be a tendency, if our Dominions develop rapidly, for that discrepancy to disappear, but, unless it disappears entirely, it means that we should actually be placing our country under 'a shortage of food supplies, and these charged with the responsibility of looking after the democracy of this country will take precious good care that they do not jeopardise the supplies of food from foreign countries by any artificial means. These changes, if they come about, must come about naturally and after a period of time.
The same is true with regard to our raw materials. The import of our raw materials from foreign countries comes to over £224,000,000, and from Empire countries to £127,000,000. £127,000,000 is a very respectable total, but we cannot afford the diminution of a single £1,000,000 of the £224,000,000 that comes from foreign countries unless we can be sure that we can get it equally cheaply, equally abundantly, and of equal quality from the Dominions or elsewhere. Just as the first duty of Ministers in the Dominions must be to look after their democracy, so the first duty of our Ministers here must be to look after the interests of our democracy. It is of no use to say to those who are seeking employment, and are finding it extremely difficult to get work, that, in the interests of the Empire, they must make sacrifices. We cannot expect them to accept that as a statement of the duty which is imposed upon them. The fact is that we cannot afford to surrender any of our foreign trade; that is the truth of the matter. The Dominions ought to know and understand that, and those Dominion statesmen whom I have had the honour of meeting do understand it. It is only certain quarters of the Press, particularly in this country, that shut their eyes to it. Those Dominion statesmen are quite alive to the fact that we cannot afford to see any diminution in the supplies, either of our food or of our raw materials, from overseas, in present circumstances.
I now turn from that actual necessity of ours to obtain the supplies which are necessary for our work to the other side of the question. What about our exports? It would be absurd for us to say in this House that, although we have the benefit of a considerable preference in Australia, Australian producers are not very heavily protected against the United Kingdom producer. They are. I have just run through, within the last few hours, the most recent Australian tariff and those of a number of other countries. I will refer, first of all, to pig iron. In the iron and steel trade we are quite ready to export our pig iron to Australia, We will sell it to anyone who will pay us full value for it, and we are very glad to sell it in Australia, but, if it goes to Australia, it is subject, even under the Preference, to a duty of 20s. a ton. If we send it to Norway, or Sweden, or Denmark, it goes in free. Turning to galvanised sheets, in which I used to take, and still do take, an active interest—the constituency that I represented in the last Parliament depends for a great deal of its employment on the production of galvanised sheets and tin plates—we were very much alive to the fact that, when we sent our galvanised sheets out to Australia, even under the preferential tariff, we had to pay a 20s. duty, or, rather, I should say that the Australians had to pay a 20s. duty before they could get our excellent sheets. If they went to Norway or Denmark they went in free.
Again, take oil engines, which are an increasing industry, and in regard to which the ingenuity of our people has been amazingly displayed. If we send an oil engine out to Australia whether to drive the machinery of a newspaper office, or to go up country and do something in the agricultural areas, or to take the place of a steam engine in an area where they cannot get coal but can carry oil, the purchaser has to pay a 27½ per cent, duty under the Preference before he can get our excellent engine. It is, indeed, remarkable that so many of our engines go to Australia, leaping over this high tariff wall. If such an engine went to the Argentine, it would go in free, and would get an open market. Again, a locomotive sent out to Australia is subject, under the Preference, to a duty of 27½ per cent.—a pretty solid duty which is paid by the Australian railways. The Australian railways have not been a profit-making concern for the last few years, and I am inclined to think that the tariff has something to do with the expense at which they are run. On the other hand, if a locomotive goes to the Argentine, the duty would only be 5 per cent., and not 27½ per cent., and the Argentine railways show an example of prosperity which the whole world can copy with advantage. I am very glad of that, because so many of the Argentine railways belong to British shareholders. Steel rails, if they go to Australia, are subject to a duty of Is. 9d. a hundredweight, while if they go to the Argentine they go in free.
What deduction is to be drawn from that? It is a simple deduction. The Australians have seen fit to put on this tariff, and we cannot interfere with it. God forbid that we should! We have had one bad example of interfering with a tariff in a self-governing Dominion, and very bad the result was. Do not let us interfere with them, but we can at least point out to them that their citizens are having to pay this duty, and that it is impeding to some extent traffic which might go into their country with greater advantage to them, and, we hope, with some to us as producers. The fact is that these Preferential Duties have in some cases been made preferential duties by raising the other walls. I do not shut my eyes to the fact that that very often prevents the foreigner from competing with the English producer, but do not let us get into the way of thinking that the Australians are making us a munificent gift. They have taken good care to keep the preferential duty up to a level which will protect the industries in their own country, and that is equally true of Canada, New Zealand and South Africa.
The whole of the British Imperial problem is not to be summed up within the region of taxation. I hope it will be made clear, when the Imperial Conference meets this winter, that the Government are going to devote themselves to finding every possible means by which the Dominions and ourselves can be drawn closer together. Transport appears to be one of the directions in which profitable work can be done. The Imperial Shipping Committee has already done good service, both to the Dominions and to this country, and its work might be fostered. A late Member of this House, who for many years was interested in Imperial affairs, makes a most admirable Chairman of that Committee, and I am sure that, if he is given encouragement by the President of the Board of Trade and the Secretary of State for the Dominions and Colonies, he will be a good adviser who may well be taken into the councils of the Government.
That is not the only thing that can be done. We can keep in close touch with the Dominions on a great many subjects. Matters of research can be pooled. The British Empire, after all, has not such a great supply of scientists that it can afford to do without the assistance of those who come from any part of the Empire. I think we all ought td welcome the visit of the British Association to South Africa this year. It will mean that we shall draw within the circle of the British Association men who in South Africa have already done service to that great Union. It will mean that many of our people at home will go out and see for the first time the difficult problems which have been triumphantly overcome in that extremely difficult part of the world. All these services can be rendered, the one to the other, but do not let us run the risk of telling the Dominions that the Amendment now proposed from the Opposition side of the House represents the opinion of even one-half of the people of the United Kingdom. I have heard to-night the late Secretary of State for the Colonies talking in most menacing tones to his own Leader, to the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, and I think I might also say to the party behind him, for he said, " We want to know who are our allies and who are our opponents," turning round to his friends. Not even the whole of the Conservative party is in favour of this fiscal policy, and the fact is that, taken in terms of the votes cast at the last election, there is not the least doubt about the preponderating Free Trade opinion of this country.
Last week a speech was made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Edgbaston (Mr. Chamberlain) of very great importance. He had in his mind, I think, proposals for Free Trade within the Empire. I do not know whether he was reviving the idea of 27 years ago, when his father embarked on a great campaign, or whether he was acting under the spur of Lord Beaverbrook and the " Daily Express " and the " Sunday Express." I do not know what was the impulse tout, only two days after he delivered the speech, he gave an interview to the " Daily Telegraph " watering it down. He said, amongst other things, " You must not take my words to mean that I contemplate a tax on imported wheat." This is a very important fact. Lord Beaverbrook is bold enough to say, " You cannot give assistance to Canada unless you put a duty on imported wheat. You cannot give assistance to New Zealand and South Africa unless you put a duty on imported meat." He is a bold man. He is like the Mr. Chamberlain of bygone days and not the Mr. Chamberlain of today. He holds the view very strongly that it is worth doing for the sake of the Empire.
I should like to make two very plain statements on that. Do not let us overlook the fact that meat that comes into this country from other parts of the British Empire is under the control of a very small number of people. One or two firms can control the whole of that imported supply. I remember, during the War, having negotiations with the six great meat firms in the world. One has now passed away. There remain roughly five if you count in all the Americans. There is only one in the United Kingdom that really matters. If you were to embark on this system which Lord Beaverbrook advocates, you would be giving to that one firm an advantage at the expense of the consuming classes, which I do not believe the democracy would tolerate. If you come to the case of wheat, those of us who have had connection with Canada know that a very large amount of the wheat of Canada is under the control, not of the individual farmer, the poor beggar who is trying to make a living out of 160 acres and loses his crop two years out of three, but under the control of the great elevator companies, who would reap the advantage of this policy. I was not surprised, therefore, that the late Minister of Health Has turned away from the policy of last Thursday and, in an interview in the " Daily Telegraph " on Monday, he declared that he is against the tax on wheat. I wish he had said meat as well as wheat. We may as well have the two together.
There is one thing I should like to say in the interests of all those who are wedded to this " obsolete doctrine of Free Trade." When I heard the right hon. Gentleman talking about obsolete doctrines my memory went back to the volumes of the Annual Register of 1830—the same stale old arguments trotted out, the same advocacy of the Navigation Laws, the same idea that you could keep within the limits of the British Empire the trade of this country and this Empire. The fact is that we are not going to be satisfied with any limitation of our trade. Free Trade within the Empire would be a most glorious thing for the Empire and for ourselves, and a very great achievement for our politicians. I only wish there was enough wisdom in the Dominions and in this country to achieve it. If we could do that we should certainly be able to extend a great many of our industries. No Free Trader is fool enough to believe that these tariffs do not interfere with our prosperity. We should see a great extension of our prosperity if Free Trade within the Empire became possible, but do not let us overlook the difficulties that stand in the way. First of all, they desire in the Dominions to look after their own affairs. Secondly, in India there is a growing self-consciousness which is not likely to be easily overridden. I observe, by the way, that only this last week the Governor of Ceylon has been using his official majority in the Assembly to impose on Ceylon a tariff which the elected members do not approve of. I trust the President of the Board of Trade will look into that matter and see that British interests do not suffer on the advice of an official nominee.
But it is not really within the Empire that we can afford to restrict our trade. Three-quarters of our raw cotton comes from outside. Three-quarters of our oils and five-sixths of our ores come from outside. We cannot afford to do without any of these. Some of the most important customers who buy our goods are foreign Governments, foreign firms and foreign individuals. Do not let us do anything to frighten them off. We cannot afford to lose a single customer in these days. It would be absurd of us not to direct our gaze on the markets on the other side of the world. As a shipowner, I am delighted when people pay attention to the other side of the world. But do not let us lose sight of the European markets. They may have been very greatly depressed. One of the reasons why they are depressed is to be found in the very subject matter of this Debate. Tariffs have been built up recklessly under a sort of false nationalism, perverted patriotism and ignorance of economics which really amaze those who go to international conferences. I believe 11,000 miles of new tariff barriers have been created since the War. In Europe we have an area as large as the United States of America. The fathers of the United States were never such fools as to allow it to he possible that a barrier could be put up round California against Maine or New Jersey, or round Texas against Minnesota. Throughout the whole of that area there is not a single tariff barrier between State and State. When we were at Geneva two years ago, at the Economic Conference, the Americans said: " We do not want to interfere in your European affairs, but our Continent is as big as your Europe and we do not allow a single barrier to go up against any one of our States. If you would follow the same example in Europe you would have the same blessings."
I want to advise the Government to keep open the door that was opened two years ago. The late President of the Board of Trade was inclined to think very lightly of the Economic Conference at Geneva. It was attended by representatives of no fewer than 52 States. They talked with the greatest candour to each other. They exposed their internal problems one to the other and the conclusion of the Conference was that they decided that tariffs were too high, that the barriers against trade were too many, that the excessive tariffs lessened the buying power of consumers and, therefore, diminished the selling power of producers and hampered the world markets for manufactured goods, and they recommended the Governments represented at Geneva to turn to these problems with the idea of reducing the barriers that now exist and by that means fostering international trade. We came back to the House of Commons and asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he would give a lead in this country and within a week we were given another Safeguarding Duty. That was the sort of example he set. We could have set an example which many other nations in Europe would have felt inclined to follow. [Interruption.] It is clear that hon. Members are not up to date in their information. The Economic Department at Geneva records the fact that, up to the time of the meeting of that Economic Conference, tariffs were on the rise all over Europe, and from that moment there has been no rise in tariffs. That is the view of the Economic Office of Geneva, and I am much more prepared to accept their impartial view than the partisan view of hon. Members above the Gangway.
If we had taken the lead, it would have brought benefit to us and we should have been in a stronger position in recommending it to other people. [An HON. MEMBER:" For 70 years they have not followed our example! "] So much the worse for them. We are the greatest exporting country in the world, not even excepting the United States of America. We have the biggest foreign trade, we have the best mercantile marine, we am the centre of the finance of the world. All that is an example which Europe should have been proud to follow. If in Europe there had been a lowering of tariffs since the War, instead of a raising of tariffs, there would have been prosperity in nearly every one of its constituent countries, and we should have seen a much larger volume of trade. The clearances at the ports would have been larger. We should have been producing for their benefit the articles that we can produce more cheaply than they can, and we likewise should have been buying goods which we can obtain more cheaply from them than we can produce ourselves —thoroughly good sound business. We who represent great industrial or agricultural constituencies want to see once and for all the abandonment of these partial benefits given to individual trades and a much larger conception of the country's trade and world trade. I am all for extending trade within the Empire but if we had depended on the Empire in the past we could not have supported more than two-thirds of our present population. We have never been satisfied with anything less than world trade in the past and it is world trade that we demand to-day.
The right hon. Gentleman was wrong in his statement as to our exports compared with those of the United States. For the first time in the history of this country, last year the United States passed our figure. Her exports were £932,000,000.
Manufactured goods?
Total exports. I have been rather amused in the last few days listening to the argument of those in favour of Free Trade. It has been said several times that in Continental countries wages are lower than here though they are protected and we are Free Trade, but we hardly ever hear reference to the fact that if you go to Canada, to the United States, South Africa, New Zealand, places I have visited many times, you find the standard of living is higher than in this country. The right hon. Gentleman said the standard of life is probably not greater in the United States than it is here. I go there every year, sometimes twice a year, and know the country fairly well and the standard of living it probably higher there than in any country in the world. I agree that the cost of living is higher at the same time, but if you go to their factories you see a thousand motor cars in the garages of some factories, all driven there by the workmen. I do not hesitate to say again that, when the cost of living has been accounted for, the surplus that is left for the worker is far greater than in this country. The Chancellor of the Exchequer to-day said that in only one constituency in the West Riding had a candidate been successful who had been in favour of Safeguarding. It so happens that I was the successful candidate in that particular Division. From the commencement to the finish, I fought that election purely on the question of Safeguarding. It is a constituency where a large proportion, probably 60 per cent., of the total electorate is industrial. There are many thousands engaged in the woollen industry. I should like to point out that while the application in connection with the inquiry into the woollen industry was made by the masters it was, at the same time, supported by representatives of the trades unions. I heard it stated from the benches opposite that the men were coerced into supporting the application. Members on the opposite benches know that a man of the calibre of Mr. Arthur Shaw, who was one of the supporters representing the trades unions, is not the man to be coerced by anybody. He would never give his opinion against his own conviction. Last year we imported into this country 25,000,000 yards of double width cloth of a value of over £7,000,000. If you estimate that 30 per cent, of the value would be expended on wages, it would mean, even if only two-thirds of this amount of 25,000,000 yards of double width cloth had been excluded as a result of a Safeguarding Duty, that employment could have been given to at least 12,000 men in this country, and it would have saved the country £500,000 in unemployment benefit.
In the woollen industry, there are 17,000 persons totally un employed, and 32,000 partially unemployed. During the past few years hundreds of textile firms have either closed down or gone into liquidation, and there are many thousands of men who have been thrown on to the Employment Exchanges, whereas there might have been a chance of these men finding work if this report had been carried into effect by the Government. When I look at the names of those who were called as witnesses by the opponents, I find that out of 15 witnesses 10 of them were agents mostly in London, men who make their living by importing foreign-made goods. How could you expect such men to support an application when it is their livelihood to import cheaply made goods from the Continent? Another witness was a partner in a firm of woollen manufacturers. There are two brothers in that firm. The brother who opposed the application is a rabid Free Trader. When he was asked whether his brother was not in favour of Safeguarding, he simply remarked, " Well, my brother is younger than me." There is also the case of a man who came before the inquiry and admitted quite frankly that he had not even discussed the matter with his directors. He came to give evidence as the manager of certain mills.
The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War, when speaking yesterday, stated that the woollen goods which we imported into this country, and which the people who are in favour of Safeguarding wanted to exclude, from this country were of a kind that were not manufactured in this country. Only a few weeks ago I was speaking to the director of a firm that was among those 15 opponents. I told him that I was sorry to notice that his firm was among those Free Trade firms, which, immediately after the inquiry, had put into operation a reduction of wages. He turned to me and said, " We are losing money; we are working short time." He also said to me, " But I am satisfied of this, that if we were safeguarded we would be working full time and probably overtime making money, because the bulk of the goods coming into this country are the kind of goods which we manufacture at our works." I know a man who put in front of his employés a piece of cloth which had come from Italy. He told his people that he could buy this cloth in London at 4s. 6d. a yard, and added:" To make it at 4s. 6d. a yard in these works would mean that you people would have to work for 50 per cent, less than you are getting to-day." [An HON. MEMBER:" Italy is under Protection."] Italy may be a protected country, but it exports its goods to a Free Trade country, and pays only half the amount of wages which are paid in this country.
Just before the Election, I read in the newspapers that the Prime Minister stated that he would prohibit sweated goods altogether. That was his policy. What constitutes sweated goods? Hon Members must remember that the standard of living in Continental countries is altogether lower than the standard of living in this country. A man living in France with an average wage of 30s. per week, and living according to the standard in France, may be as well off as a man receiving an average wage of £3 a week in this country. We do not know what is the Prime Minister's idea of sweated labour. We say in Yorkshire, " Why not give competitive trade in this country a fair chance. All the time the dice is loaded against us, and the manufacturers in this country have not a fair chance." There are, no doubt, many Members on the opposite benches who have a feeling that somehow or other there is no desire on the part of those who are masters to do their best for their workmen. I say that any man who is in business and has not a desire to employ his men under proper conditions of trade at proper wages is not fit to be an employer at all.
Last year a friend of mine sold 5,000 tons of rags to Poland. He told me that these rags would be made into cloth by skilled men in Poland who were receiving from 13s. to 15s. a week, and hundreds of thousands of yards of the finished cloth would be exported to this country. If any hon. Member opposite were in business, could they say how they would compete with that country if they were having to pay £3 per week to men doing the same kind of work? A man in my division who has a woollen mill comes to London and buys certain materials. The man in France also comes to London for the same purpose. The freight charges from London to Roubaix are no more than they are from London to the West Riding of Yorkshire. In Roubaix they have their mills well equipped; rebuilt out of reparations since the War. The mills are well fitted up and they employ workmen who are probably as skilled as the workmen in Yorkshire. What is the reason why we cannot compete with them. Simply because in Roubaix the worker in the woollen mills receives a standard rate of £l 2s. 11d. per week, while for the same work in the Dewsbury and Batley area in the West Riding of Yorkshire, the standard wage is £2 14s. lOd. Can the House say that this is a fair and reasonable competition? If any hon. Gentlemen opposite were in business bow would they fight against this? They stand all the time for the maintenance of a proper standard rate of wages, and rightly so.
We want to see a higher standard of living for the workers of this country, but how can we bring this about when we have to face competition of this description. [An HON. MEMBER:" Establish an international standard of living."] How long will you have to wait until that comes to pass? Hon. Members know that they cannot have anything of the kind. A few weeks ago a friend told me that he had been in a French factory and seen women working there for 15 hrs. a day, which was roughly 13s. a week. He said that in his factory the minimum rate was £3 for time work, and £3 15s. when the men were working piece-time. How would hon. Members compete against that competition? The prosperity of this country and the care of our expanding population depend upon greater production. Year after year we find it more difficult for our people to migrate to other countries. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for St. Ives (Mr. Runciman) spoke about America and the standard of life there. Let them lower their quota of migrants into the United States of America, and you would see their markets flooded by people from this country and continental countries. Why? Because working men know perfectly well that the standard of living there and the chances of improvement are greater than in any country in the world. What we want in our industries is greater production and lower overhead charges.
I am not one of those who would take a stand on trying to safeguard inefficiency, but if you have efficient industries which are adversely affected by unfair competition, I say that it is only right that you should give them a chance. Masters desire a high standard rate of wages, and rightly so, but how can the workmen themselves expect to have a fair chance when they are being affected by competition of the description which I have outlined? It necessarily follows that where in an efficiently managed industry in this country there is Safeguarding and it enjoys greater pro- tection in this country, the overhead charges go down and that in the case of the Continental man who exports his goods to this country his turnover must go down and his overhead charges must go up. It makes it more difficult for the Continental exporter to compete in the foreign markets of the world, and easier for us to do a greater volume of trade. I speak as a man who knows a little about industry and who exports goods probably to 25 or 26 countries of the world. I have seen in the City of Leeds where I live, in particular about five years ago when I was the Chief Magistrate, an enormous amount of unemployment. The reason why I am a firm believer in Safeguarding is because I want to see these huge armies of unemployed disappear. There is no reason why they should not disappear if we have an extension of Safeguarding.
8.0 p.m.
What is the alternative? The alternative to Safeguarding, which would mean greater production, more employment, and better wages for our people, is a Free Trade policy which means reduction of wages. What happened after the application in connection with the woollen industry? Within two weeks in the Dewsbury and Batley area a number of firms put into operation reductions of wages of over 9 per cent., and they were led by two well-known Free Trade firms. That is the Free Trade policy. Unless by Safeguarding industries and consequent greater production goods are manufactured more cheaply for the foreign markets of the world, the only alternative in order to make goods cheaper is to reduce wages. Personally I am against that. The advantages of Safeguarding are, surely, best known to those people who have had experience of it. Of the people who have experienced the beneficial results of Safeguarding and of the McKenna Duties, do you find a single one who wishes to be de-Safeguarded? Not a single one. In the City of Leeds we have a large number of engineering works. I could point to engineering firms which in days gone by employed 3,000 men who to-day are employing only 500 or 300. Out of the large number of engineering firms in Leeds, there are not more than three which can be said to be really busy, and two of those are engaged in making component parts for the motor industry. Safeguarding has been a great success in this country, apart altogether from the fact that it has produced £12,000,000 of revenue. The Safeguarded firms have flourished.
In my constituency there is a paper mill, and I should like to quote some figures which were given to me by the firm. Safeguarding came into operation in connection with the paper industry in 1926, the year of the great strike. Therefore, any figures relating to that year would not be fair. In 1924, this firm worked 263 days of 24 hours a day and in 1925, 266 days. Those were the two years preceding the imposition of the Safeguarding Duty. In 1927, the total number of days worked went up to 274 of 24 hours each, and 152 hours overtime. In 1928, the number went up to 276 days of 24 hours, with 52 hours overtime. In the year preceding the imposition of the Duty the price of the paper manufactured by this firm was £23 8s. per ton. In 1927, the year following the imposition of the Duty, the price went down to £22 4s., and in 1928 it fell to £21. That shows quite clearly that, with their increased production and capacity, the price of the article they were making went down. They now find that they have a measure of prosperity which they never knew in days gone by.
The hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft), the other day read an extract from a Norwegian newspaper for which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had been writing a little time ago. In that communication the right hon. Gentleman explained to the Norwegians how sorry he was that their exports of paper to this country had diminished. What does he want to see? Does he want to see their exports of paper to this country increase and our manufacture of pap'er going less? He proceeded to say:" Very shortly, we shall be in power " or words to that effect, " and then we shall see a freer intercourse of trade between the two countries." How are we to see freer intercourse? Is the right hon. Gentleman going to persuade Norway to become Free Trade? If so, I am afraid he will have little success in that direction. Probably he was hoping that the time would come when the Safeguarding Duty on paper would be taken off and there would be a free import of paper from Norway, and instead of our people working overtime they would be on the unemployed list.
The Lord Privy Seal, speaking at Southampton, said that the real test was our ability to sell our goods in the foreign markets of the world and to induce customers from all over the world to come to us. That is what we want. We want our goods to go out to the foreign markets of the world in greater quantities than before, and I am satisfied that one great step in that direction will be the 'Safeguarding of industries and the extension of Safeguarding. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer abolishes the Duties next April, I am satisfied that there will be thousands upon thousands of people thrown into the unemployed army, and that in itself will be sufficient to begin the sounding of the death knell of the party opposite. I wonder if hon. Members opposite have ever visited our Dominions and Colonies?
Why wonder?
I wonder, because I wish I knew. I have been there. I have been to Canada, New Zealand and South Africa and I know the feeling that exists there in business circles. There is more than a mere commercial spirit in the business that you do with the people out there. The people in South Africa, for instance, are fired with an intense and deep love for the mother country. When you go into their places of business, the first question that is put to you is: " How are things going on at home?" By " home," they mean this country. My experience is that I have got Preference for my goods there over any country in the world. It is of the utmost importance that we should foster and create a greater volume of trade between the mother country and the Dominions and Colonies in the future. Only the other day, the Prime Minister of Australia said that he hoped we should get more together in the future, in order that better Preferences could be given to the mother country, wherever possible. I admit that Australia is a Protectionist country but, at any rate, that was a gesture of a desire to meet the people of this country, so that we might foster better trade relationships and promote a larger volume of trade. In order that we can foster this trade and supply them with cheaper goods we must develop the policy of Safeguarding.
The workmen in this country are highly skilled. There are certainly no higher skilled workmen in the world than our workmen. They can produce goods equal to men in any country. Give them a fair chance by keeping out from this country goods that are made by men working under conditions and receiving wages that would never be, and ought never to be, tolerated by the working men of this country. I hope that the time will come very shortly, and I hope I shall see it in this House, when there will be a considerable extension of the Safeguarding of industries, because I believe that therein lies one of the greatest solutions of our problems for the future. The Lord Privy Seal, in outlining his scheme, mentioned various means for the relief of unemployment. What earthly use for the woollen industries in the North of England is the making of steel sleepers or a few steel telegraph poles? How could you put the cloth workers on work of that description. The people employed in our woollen industry require work in their own industry. What we require in order to create employment and to improve the conditions of labour in our industry, is the extension of Safeguarding.
I congratulate the hon. Member for Pudsey and Otley (Mr. Gibson) on his maiden speech. Much as we may differ from his conclusions, we shall be delighted to hear him many times in the future, when we shall have a chance of crossing swords with him. This is not the first time that I have met the hon. Member. I was waiting throughout his speech for him to deal with his own trade, upon which I have met him across the table when dealing with wages questions. He has been very careful to leave his own trade out of the discussion. Had he mentioned his own trade it might have been interesting, because there are people on this side of the House who might have been prepared to examine the matter with him.
The reason why I purposely avoided mentioning my own trade was that I did not care to influence the House or to convey the impression that T had an axe of my own to grind.
I should never have looked upon it as a case of the hon. Member wishing to grind his own axe. We should have been prepared to deal with his own particular occupation. I have risen mainly to correct a statement made by leading speakers on the other side with regard to the lace industry. This afternoon the hon. Member for the Kushcliffe Division (Sir H. Betterton), who was Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour in the last Government, told the. House what was taking place in the lace industry. I had hoped that the hon. Member would be present now. I have informed him that it was my intention to try to put the correct position with regard to that particular industry. I am sure that it was not the fault of the hon. Member that he was not able to state the actual situation in that industry. No doubt, he gave figures which were presented to him by someone in the industry. Those figures are like all the figures that one has ever heard supporters of Safeguarding give either in this House or the country. In that statement, they took one or two portions of the industry. I am not quite sure whether the statement was not based on one or two factories in the industry. We have been told that there has been an increase of 33 per cent, in the number of people employed. That is untrue. The House was led to believe that that was happening throughout the industry. I am glad that the hon. Member for Maidstone (Commander Bellairs) is present because, for some reason or other, he has been corresponding with the press in regard to this industry, and probably he may have been misled by some of the figures which were used this afternoon. In those figures, no reference is made to the position in Somerset, in Long Eaton, in Beeston, cr in Derby.
The House was given to understand that Nottingham was the sole place where this industry was carried on, and we were asked to support the Amendment because of the increase in employment by reason of the proposals of the late Government. There has been no increase in employment, but there have been worse conditions of employment. The members of the trade union who were misled, very foolishly, like many other members of trade unions in various industries, in supporting Safeguarding proposals, have now awakened to the position which some of us tried to show to them before the inquiry took place. Instead of support- ing Safeguarding at this moment, we find very interesting statements which were published during the General Election by the general secretary and the executive of that particular amalgamated society of operative lace-makers. I will give one or two quotations from letters written on behalf of that particular trade union. Referring to a statement that had been made by Sir Albert Ball, at Lord H. Cavendish-Bentinck's adoption meeting that it was not possible to find enough twist-hands to operate the Levers machines that were required to meet the demand, they say: better wages. They have made the position more insecure and employers in Nottingham, who are operating machinery 70 years and 84 years old rather than buy new machinery in order to modernise their plant, are asking to be allowed to continue under the Safeguarding proposals because they will not put their factories on a proper footing. The glove trade in Yeovil is one with which I am concerned. There has been no improvement in that particular industry. There has been no improvement in conditions or wages, despite all the promises that were made. Safeguarding will not get us out of our difficulties. It will have to be something else. It will have to be the proposals made on this side of the House for the reorganisation of industry, to enable people to have better incomes in order to consume the things which they make. These proposals, rather than the fraudulent method of Safeguarding, will enable us to get out of the difficulties which confront us.
I do not propose to follow the hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. Kelly) in his speech. It seemed to me to be an echo of the General Election; and the broad fact emerges that employment has benefited in these particular trades. In the official statement made from the Government Front Bench yesterday it was shown that employment has increased in the lace trade. I desire to deal with the speech made by the right hon. Member for St. Ives (Mr. Runciman). His was a speech of unusual ability, setting out the Liberal case. It was a speech which Lord Melchett would have delivered in the days when he was the honorary treasurer of the Free Trade Union. The right hon. Gentleman showed that he was on the road which Lord Melchett has since taken. Lord Melchett is now in absolute agreement with us, and the right hon. Gentleman has said that he would embrace Protection if we could get Free Trade within the British Empire. Therefore, he is on the road, although it may be more difficult for a shipowners to enter our Kingdom of Heaven than it is for any other class of employer. The right hon. Gentleman referred to the Geneva Economic Conference and spoke of the representatives there as though they were official, whereas, they were people chosen by the League of Nations and were not officially accredited by any Government whatever. Whatever he may say it is notorious that since that Conference tariffs have been put up in the case of Spain and other nations, and he is wrong in saying that they have not been put up.
He indicted our proposals with regard to tariffs because we could not assist the export trade in coal. Nobody claims that we could. It is, of course, a very important trade, but in the view of so great a man in the Liberal party as Mr. Gladstone,- coal is the capital of the nation. Mr. Gladstone once introduced a Budget for the purpose of reducing the National Debt on the ground that we were using up coal, the capital of the nation, and that it was a capital which would eventually give out. The right hon. Gentleman spoke of Reparations coal, and I am sorry that his remarks were not heard by the leader of the Liberal party who had so much to do with fixing Reparations coal in the past. When the right hon. Gentleman spoke of the most serious evil of unemployment, I could not help thinking that this is the only country in the world except Russia under a Socialist Government, which has had chronic unemployment for nine years. It has been chronic unemployment under a Free Trade system; there is no getting away from that. He has expounded the old Liberal idea that the rest of the world is wrong; denounced them as fools, almost as idiots, and that we are the only country in the world that is right. I cannot agree with the right hon. Gentleman.
The Leader of the Liberal party was the Prime Minister of this country when we gave self-government to India and to Ireland. What was the first act of those countries? To set up a tariff. The same right hon. Gentleman was our representative when the Treaty of Versailles was made. That Treaty set up 12 new nations in Europe, and every one of them set up a tariff at once. There were 4,000 miles added to the tariff barriers of the world. When the Liberal party indulged in a conferences at Yarmouth and passed a resolution in favour of a crusade to lead the world back to Free Trade, I really think that the leader of the Liberal party, the Welsh Don Quixote, must have thought the task a most unenviable one as he looked abroad at the world. There is no nation except this nation which has free imports. Nowhere could the right hon. Gentleman see the slightest encouragement for the idea that he would ever lead the world back to Free Trade.
What is the position which is so different to the pre-War position as to justify us in asking for safeguarding all along the line, even approaching a general tariff? We have created in this country a system of social assistance costing in rates and taxes about £340,000,000 a year. In no other country is there anything approaching it. I do not think that the social assistance of America approaches one-third of the amount that we spend. And we have to pay for the cost of the War as well. The result is that we have taxation in this country nearly twice that of France, three times that of the United States and over four times that of Italy, in each case per head of population. Surely, when this increase of taxation has made the position so different, we are justified in asking that the taxed manufacturers and others should be safeguarded in some way?
I know that the right hon. Member for South Molton (Mr. G. Lambert), who spoke yesterday as a Liberal Free Trader, suggested at question time that representation should be made to the United States to lower their tariff because we have to pay a very large debt to them and cannot pay it with ease unless we pay in goods. That debt amounts to £100,000 a day. Why did not the right hon. Member for South Molton consider how much we add to the difficulty of paying that debt when we admit £600,000 a day of American goods into this country free of all duty? We admit about £10 of American goods free into this country for every £l of British goods that finds its way free of duty into America. It must add very considerably to the difficulty of paying America when we buy so much from America.
In some ways, in these discussions, we are fortified by the experience of the General Election. What was our most familiar experience as Unionist candidates? When we were dealing with the policy of our opponents, which is nationalisation, we used to ask this question—where in the wide world, during the full expanse of history, can you show a single instance of success in nationalisation? [Interruption.] I cannot argue that question now, because I would be called to order. When we were dealing with Safeguarding we asked a very different question—where in the wide world can you show us a single instance of the failure of the Safeguarding Taxes?
Is it not true that the miners have had to suffer a considerable reduction of wages because of the competition of safeguarded countries?
In addition we were fortified with this—that although we had very little propaganda in the country we were beginning to perceive that the signposts which we had erected were leading from one tax to another. I quite admit that Safeguarding is Protection by instalments. I welcome it. We had the case of the optical glass trade, which was an enormous success. The result was that people in the glass trade were beginning to be converted and wanted Protection for themselves. We had the silk and rayon hosiery industry which was a great success. While it was prospering the woollen and cotton hosiery trades were not prospering, and the woollen and cotton trades wanted safeguarding. We had the Wrapping Paper Duty. It was a great success, and the result was that the paper manufacturers were getting together and beginning to demand that there should be a duty on paper all round. We are getting rid of the superstition that we must not apply Protection in order to get new industries. By accident rather than by set purpose we put a duty on kraft paper. It was only following the Protectionist example of the Leader of the Liberal party. When I was in Parliament from 1905 to 1909 the right hon. Gentleman introduced a highly Protective Patent Act, which was of great benefit in this country and established new industries here.
But there were also Safeguarded towns, like Slough and Coventry, with an enormous increase of population and no unemployment, or unemployment that was well below the normal. The population of Slough increased by 60 per cent., and the unemployment was less than 2 per cent. It is true that many of these towns voted for Socialist Members, but to what that 'action was due I will not state. I have always found that gratitude is a lively sense of favours to come. They had already got Safeguarding. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his speech to-day, talked about the judgment of the electors. What happened after he abolished the McKenna Duties? There was a General Election, and the Socialist party had its first setback. It is always possible to give reasons, though it is best not to do so. It could probably be said, in regard to the safeguarded towns, that there had been an enormous increase of population, with a consequent great housing and rating difficulty. Possibly, hon. Members scored in that way.
Now I come to a very important consideration, and that is the question of the prohibition of imports. The Birmingham conference, eight months ago, decided in favour of prohibition of imports in order to get fair conditions of trade—wherever there was unfair trade you were to prohibit imports. My opponent said so, and I have no doubt that when he contested Bugby, at the by-election there, he said the same thing. There was a very interesting conversation at that Birmingham conference between the Prime Minister and one of his supporters. The Socialist candidate for Bodmin asked this question—and there was a good deal of heart feeling in the question—" How long are the unmitigated horrors of Free Trade to continue in this country?" And the Prime Minister gave this answer: of the prohibition of imports, where those imports were produced under unfair conditions.
I will test those professions about prohibition. We import timber from Russia which is cut, hewn and carried to the coast by compulsory labour. What is the Socialist party going to do about that? The conditions in the Levantine fruit trade were exposed by Dr. Haden Guest in the days when he was a Socialist Member. He is not a Socialist Member now, but the state of. affairs which he exposed—all honour to him for doing so —showed the most deplorable sanitary conditions and the worst possible conditions generally under which that work was conducted. What is the Socialist party going to do about the Levantine fruit trade? In the Belgian steel trade wages are from 55 to 60 per cent, lower than those paid to British steel workers. In the cost per ton (of steel in this country, 92½ per cent, represents wages. That is on the authority of the President of the Iron and Steel Institute. The party opposite, as far as I can see, have repudiated their promises regarding prohibition. What are they going to write on the slate? [HON. MEMBERS:" Socialism ! "] We have been rejected by the electorate and we claim, in consequence, a clean slate. The party opposite were elected, but they claim a clean slate in regard to prohibition. I do not know how they are going to account for it to the electorate; but it must be the case that all the time they were making those promises, the Prime Minister knew that he could not carry out the promises, because of treaties with foreign nations which contained the most-favoured nation clause. In addition, before the General Election, the Secretary of State for War told the House that it was impossible to carry out prohibition because we had a League of Nations agreement, under which, while you could prohibit all imports, you could not discriminate in the prohibition of imports against any one nation.
I have heard speakers to-day suggest that Dominion trade has reached saturation point. I do not believe it for a moment. We had a similar argument in the old days when Mr. Joseph Chamberlain carried out his crusade. Then it was said that the trade of the Dominions was small and unimportant. When Mr. Joseph Chamberlain proposed Free Trade within the Empire, it is perfectly true that that trade was small. The external trade of Canada then was only £72,000,000; the external trade of Canada to-day is £450,000,000, and I have not the slightest doubt that it will grow more and more, in terms of compound interest. If the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, instead of showing that the trade of Australia was less in 1928 than in 1927, had compared five-year periods and gone back considerably, he would have been able to show an enormous increase. A fresh opportunity is now being given to the Government. The Canadian Minister of Finance has openly expressed a desire to substitute British for American trade. Mr. Bruce, the Prime Minister of Australia, has given us a warning as well as an invitation to do an increased trade with Australia. We are, therefore, in the presence of a great opportunity. Why should the Government deprive itself of all its weapons by pronouncing against Preference. They will be in the position of having nothing to offer, and I would rather meet them in the spirit of the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for St. Ives (Mr. Runciman) or of the proposals of Lord Beaverbrook.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for St. Ives says that Lord Beaverbrook proposes to tax food from foreign countries or the Dominions. He does propose to do that, but only on condition that he gets Free Trade within the Empire and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for St. Ives says he would welcome Free Trade within the Empire. At any rate, as far as I can see, the Government do not propose to treat the Empire any better than they would treat the common plotter at our gates, the robber of our property, the repudiator of our debts— Russia. All I can say is that in trade matters any New Zealander is worth to us as much as 801 Russians. In spite of the fact that we are now sitting on these benches, the morrow of our defeat in many respects is the dawn of our triumph. There is an oft quoted phrase of Lord Beaconsfield in reference to food taxes to the effect that Protection was not only dead, but damned. It is perfectly true that the free import system is not dead, but an inquest is being held to night on the doctrine of the free import system, because practically every Member of this House has now abandoned the Free Trade doctrine that imports pay for exports and that therefore it does not matter if things are made abroad because exports will go out to pay for them. The Lord Privy Seal cannot sleep at night because he is thinking of substituting British steel sleepers for Russian slave-cut timber. That means the total abandonment of the Free Trade doctrine, and after he has considered the report and thought and thought, I venture to say that he will come to the conclusion that the easiest way to build the New Jerusalem is to set up a tariff in this country. Afer all, his conversion would not be any more miraculous than that of Lord Melchett, who was hon. treasurer of the Free Trade Union.
I remember that when the Prime Minister came home from a visit to America he said that America was 50 years behind us in the Labour movement. I think it is the other way about, because the Lord Privy Seal has only just arrived at the conclusion that the worker Abraham Lincoln came to many more than 50 years ago. He said, " If I order 3,000 tons of steel rails from Europe, America gets the steel rails, but Europe gets the wages, the work, and the profits, but if I order 3,000 tons of steel rails in America, America gets the rails, and America gets the wages, the work, and the profits as well." That is the conclusion which the present Government have just come to. But now that they are going to abandon the 7 per cent, of Safeguarded markets that we possess to-day, the Lord Privy Seal will find that production will go down, that costs will go up, that the cost of living will go up, and that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will have to replace the revenue. In fact, the Chancellor said he would not take the taxes off until he has seen where he can replace the revenue. Hon. Members opposite say they will tax the rich, but they must know that when they tax the rich that means the manufacturer and the merchant, who put those taxes into their costs, inevitably, and the cost of living goes up. Therefore, the net result of what the Socialist Government will do will be to increase the cost of living.
The Prime Minister will very shortly be sitting at the head of the table of the Imperial Conference of Prime Ministers. The Prime Ministers whom he will meet will profier ties of prosperous trade, preference for preference and methods for making a greater Empire out of this Empire of ours, which is nearly four times the size of Europe and more than four times the size of the United States of America. He has a very great opportunity. I hope he will look well into the future, and I hope he will not say when he meets them, as he did at the Albert Hall in 1924,
As a new Member, I take advantage of the time-honoured custom of craving the indulgence of the House. I have no intention whatever of following on the lines of the hon. and gallant Member for Maidstone (Commander Bellairs), but I desire to put this question of Safeguarding as some of - us younger men see it. I did think, in view of the fact that a plain statement has now been made by a Member of the Government, that this Amendment might be withdrawn, but that evidently is not to be the case. I am quite satisfied, in my own mind, that Safeguarding will do very little for the workers of this country. What they have to appreciate is simple elementary economics. The supposed reason for Safeguarding is that foreign-made goods are sold in this country at a lower price than similar goods made in this country. Hence we are told that the only hope is so to arrange things as to increase the price of the foreign-made article so that the British-made article may be sold.
What we have to find out is this: Why can the foreign-made article be sold here more cheaply than the British-made article? It must be one of a number of reasons—either because the foreign worker is working for lower wages, or longer hours, or under worse conditions, or because he is a more efficient worker, or it must be that the foreign employer is more efficient than the British em- ployer. -Whichever of these reasons may account for the fact that the foreigner can sell his goods more cheaply than British-made goods can be sold in this country, Safeguarding will do nothing to solve the problem. If it be because the foreign-made article is made by workers working longer hours for lower wages and under worse conditions, when you put your tariff on the foreign-made article, when you have handicapped the foreign employer, what does he do? Does he lie down? Does he shut up his shop? No, he simply goes to that low-paid worker of his and says, " I am handicapped now in Great Britain and am unable to retain my trade there as the result of tariffs on my products, and if you do not agree to some arrangement, either to lower wages or longer hours, it simply means the closing of this industry." The result is that that foreign worker accepts either the lower wages or the longer hours. Hence, the so-called advantage given to British industry by a tariff vanishes, and the low-paid foreign worker is simply used as an argument for reducing wages in this country.
We have to appreciate this position as representatives of the workers. No one would suggest that we, on this side, do not believe in Safeguarding in the interests of the workers. It is because the workers desire us to safeguard their interests that we are here at all. The workers desire their interests to be safeguarded, but they know that their interests cannot be safeguarded by lowering the standard of life of the workers in some other country. They know that primarily their interests are identical with those of other countries, with the result that we, on this side, cannot support Safeguarding, because Safeguarding will ultimately result in endangering rather than safeguarding our interests. I will be quite candid with the House, and say that the fact that this proposal comes from the Conservative party creates suspicion in our (minds. What in the world have they ever done to safeguard the workers' interests? What did they do in 4| years of Tory Government? They tried to take from the workers those things which helped the workers to safeguard their own interests. What was the Trade Union Act? Nothing but an attempt to handicap the trade union movement in their efforts to safeguard the workers' interests. What did the Conservative Government do for the safeguarding of the miners' interests? Did they safeguard the miners' seven hours day? Did they safeguard his wages?
I would remind the hon. Gentleman that the question of miners' hours has no relation to the question before the House.
I will bow to your ruling, Sir. Safeguarding as pursued by the Conservative Government during 4½ years did not result in any improvement in the life of the workers of the country. Safeguarding of industries introduces a corrupt influence into political life. If it were introduced into the policy of this country, we should have the Lobby filled by industrial representatives lobbying Members in order to get them pledged to support the safeguarding of their individual industries. Once we introduce safeguarding in the business affairs of this country, we at once erect artificial barriers between this country and other countries. Those of us who are interested in the peace question, in the elimination of everything which endangers the peace of the world, and which may bring about strained relationships, doubt, suspicion and jealousy between nations, suggest that we ought not to agree to any tariff system or fiscal policy. Where tariff countries have failed to secure that to which certain people thought they were entitled, the danger has always been that such failure might bring about other wars. Our whole case on the question of Safeguarding is that we do not believe that, in the form of placing tariffs on foreign imported goods it will ultimately be in the interests of the worker. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade, in answering for the Prime Minister yesterday, said:
"It is the intention of the Government, in the first instance, to approach the question of importation of sweated goods by way of international discussion and it is hoped, agreement."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 8th July, 1929; col. 496, Vol. 229.]
It may take time, and an hon. Member on those benches said that it will take a long time. We agree, but we say that the attempt to deal with the question in this way, that is, by improving the condition of the workers abroad, whose low condition of life enables the employers to compete with us, and by taking action along the lines of the Washington Hours' Convention, will do away with the cause of the trouble, which is the under-paid worker in foreign countries.
9.0 p.m.
I should like to congratulate the hon. Member who has just addressed the House for his very thoughtful speech. His obvious sincerity and fluency of language will, I am sure, make him always a very welcome speaker here. 'We may not agree with what he has said, but he has shown his ability to say what he has got to say shortly and with clarity. It is idle to deny that we are disappointed with what has fallen from the Government Bench. The policy in which we believe is to be destroyed, and nothing constructive is to be put in its place. At any rate, there has been no hint as yet of anything constructive, and it is a pity to destroy something which is doing some good work when you are not ready with something constructive as an alternative to put in its place. Two or three days ago the Prime Minister made an interesting declaration. He stated that to deal with unemployment it was essential to have a sound policy which will stimulate trade and raise the standard of living of the great mass of the people. There are only two policies of which I know to which these words apply. One of them is the de-rating legislation of the last Session, and the other is Safeguarding.
It is necessary, in consequence of certain things that have been said, to appreciate exactly what the problem is with which Safeguarding sets out to deal. It is surely no use finding fault with it because it does not accomplish something that it does not pretend to accomplish. You might just as well say that quinine is no good for malaria since it will not cure smallpox; it would have just as much sense as some of the things that have been said about Safeguarding in this House. The problem with which Safeguarding sets out to deal is this. Where there is in an industry serious unemployment, which is proved to be the result of an abnormal importation from countries, where the goods are produced under unfair conditions from the competitive point of view, Safeguarding may be applied. The hon. Member for Newport (Mr. Walker) said yesterday that our policy had never attempted to deal with unfair competition. That is the very basis of Safeguarding. It can only be applied when it has been proved to a committee that an industry is suffering from abnormal competition due to that very cause. It is very difficult for Safeguarding to do anything with raw material. It must never be permitted to infringe what I consider to be the basic principle of Free Trade, namely, that nothing must be done to raise the cost of industrial production.
There can never be Safeguarding for a raw material unless it be accepted as a condition of the grant that the goods in question will always be supplied at competitive world prices. We had a good object lesson in South Ireland when the margarine manufacturers wanted Protection, and they were protected on the condition that they accepted the obligation of supplying at continental competitive prices, and it has worked admirably. You can only Safeguard raw material when the industry will accept that condition as a condition of the grant. But apart from raw material, there are many industries which have been assisted with success and with which it is a great pity to interfere. B*ally I only rise to-night to say a word or two about the worsted industry, because to my mind that industry raises the problem with which the party opposite have now to deal. We attempted to deal with that problem by Safeguarding, but if that remedy is to be scrapped it must be dealt with in some other way. I can claim to know a good deal about that inquiry and about that industry, and I would like to summarise the essential facts of the situation, and would ask the House to realise how pathetic because it is pathetic, is the problem involved. There is an industry which some eight or nine years ago was in a most flourishing condition. Since then, there has been tremendous attrition. I suppose the number of insured workers in the industry is less by some 40,000 than it was. When this question was being discussed before the Committee, on any day you choose to take there were round about 38,000 unemployed in the industry. On top of that, even those who were at work were working on an average only four days a week.
Weavers were working one loom instead of two, and in the district which makes the goods in question, women's dress material, over 40 per cent, of the looms were standing idle.
I suppose everybody would agree that the unemployment in that industry is simply ghastly. Why? How has that some about? I suppose that six or seven years ago practically none of these competitive goods were coming into the country. Last year some 33,000,000 square yards of this women's light dress material came into the country, nearly half of it from France. In the same period our exports of those materials has declined enormously. Why? Competitive goods are being sold here at prices from 20 to 25 per cent, less than can those which have been produced in this country. The reasons are beyond dispute. To begin with, every one of our competitors has a protective market which ensures a certain measure of production. On the top of that, the wages paid by our competitors are incomparably less than those paid here. The Committee found that wages in France are only from 33 to 50 per cent, of the wages here. I think myself that is putting it rather mildly. My view is that the evidence established that the wages were at least 50 per cent, less than they are here. In Germany the wages were from 20 to 30 per cent, lower; and in Italy, Czechoslovakia and Belgium they are incomparably lower even than in France.
All our foreign competitors have to buy their raw materials, wool, in the same markets. The advantage they have is derived entirely from the protective markets of their own and the lower wages paid. The hours are somewhat longer than the hours worked here; but the substantial cause of the successful competition is the lower wages. This leads, not only to competition in our own markets, but leads also to the fact that they are cutting us out in the trade with the rest of the world. As an interesting sidelight, this came out during the inquiry—that the only part of the world in which we can continue to hold our own is in the Dominions, where a preference exists in our favour. The evidence was quite clear that in those markets where we have a preference, and in those markets alone, are we still able to maintain our fair share of the export trade of the world.
There you have the problem presented to you, and it is a problem which has to be dealt with. I wonder how the new Government intend to deal with it? The attitude of the trade unions concerned has been interesting. The House may know that this industry applied to be safeguarded four years ago, I think it was—in 1924 or 1925. On that occasion the trade unions opposed the application. They gave evidence against it, and the application failed. I was in the case, and the application failed, as I think, because of their opposition. On this occasion the trade unions supported the application. I know it is fair to say that the trade unions were individually not at one about it, but they had their ballot, and I suppose their attitude was regulated by the wishes of the majority. I appeared for them, I was instructed by them, and they supplied one of the ablest witnesses we were able to call, their secretary, whose name, I think, was Mr. Smith. He was a most able man, who had all the details at his finger's end, a man obviously convinced of the conditions to which the workers in the industry would be reduced. The report of the committee was in favour of Safeguarding the industry. It was a committee which it was very difficult to convince. It was a very able committee, including Mr. George Barnes and Sir Hubert Liewellyn Smith, both men very difficult to convince. It reported in favour of Safeguarding. I venture to say that a Government who refuse to carry out that recommendation when they have nothing else to take its place are assuming a very serious responsibility.
This industry supplies a typical example of conditions with which Safeguarding was designed to deal. I think it raises the issue in an acute form. I can think of nothing more pathetic than the evidence we had, day after day, as to the state of that industry. There can be no real suggestion of inefficiency. Everything conceivable seemed to have been done. One met many men who had been confirmed Liberal Free Traders who had been converted to Safeguarding in connection with this inquiry. What are the Government going, to put in the place of this remedy? There was a problem with which this policy was designed to deal.
We have heard criticisms to-day asking what Safeguarding can do for the coal trade. But coal is not imported into this country. And what can it do for the transport trade of Sunderland? That has nothing to do with importation. Another trade mentioned in connection with Sunderland was shipbuilding. We were asked what Safeguarding can do for shipbuilding. But we do not import ships. Safeguarding was not designed to deal with problems of that sort; the de-rating policy was. It is no use finding fault with Safeguarding because it does not deal with problems for which it was never intended.
To my mind, this ought not to be a political question at all; it is a purely economic question. I am a Free Trader by instinct and by training. As some Members may know I was the first referee appointed under the original Safeguarding Act. Against my will, I frankly admit it, I was converted to Safeguarding when it is applied with care and discretion. One could not have held the inquiries I held without being converted, because one got such conclusive evidence of what that policy was doing for industry in so many directions. As I say, against my will I was converted to it, and the more accustomed I am to it the more I believe in it if it is applied with the care with which it has been applied in the past few years. I am extremely sorry that this policy is to be scrapped, extremely sorry, and the more sorry because I have heard of nothing constructive which is to be put in its place. That is what I rose to say, and I submit it for the consideration of the House.
As a new Member I have listened with interest to the speeches made from the opposite benches on the merits of Safeguarding, and I have wondered at "their lack of success in converting their own Government during the four and a-half years they were in power. It does seem to me that hon. Members opposite are very optimistic if they hope to convert the Labour Government on this question when they were quite unable to convert their own party during the last four and a-half years. Hon. Members opposite argue that imports are bad. I am one of those who would like to understand the Safeguarding case, and I would like to ask if im- ports are really bad why is it that in the years when we have had our largest imports we had the best trade and the lowest ratio of unemployment. If imports are bad, why is it that it is just in those trades in which we have the least amount of imports that we have the most unemployment. In the woollen and cotton industries, which are largely export trades, you have at the present moment a tremendous amount of unemployment.
We have been told that prices have not been raised by Safeguarding Duties. If that is so, why stop at 33⅓ per cent.? Why not make it 50, 70 or 100 per cent.? If the principle of Safeguarding does not raise prices, why confine it to small articles such as those which may be bought at Woolworth's? Why not apply the principle of Safeguarding to food and raw materials? It has been argued by hon. Members opposite that the application of the Safeguarding principle would not raise prices to the consumer because the foreigner would pay the duty. I do not know whether hon. Members opposite seriously believe that argument, but the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer answered that point when he said that the belief that the foreigner pays the duty is a gospel of quacks and a creed for gulls. That gospel has been preached during the General Election, I do not say by quacks, but by hon. Members opposite, and, fortunately for the country, there were not enough gulls to return them to power. We have been told that Safeguarding would lessen unemployment. When one refers to Germany or Italy or some other Continental country where there are many millions of unemployed, and where they have Protection to a very high degree, immediately some hon. Member opposite jumps up and asks, " What about France?" I think that France is a very bad example to take because that country has passed through very abnormal conditions and they have adopted abnormal remedies. For example, we know that France, by a system of inflation, has removed a huge burden of internal debt; a policy which would not commend itself to hon. Members opposite. Therefore, I regard France as a very bad example of the benefits of Safeguarding.
Then we have been told during the last three or four days that the wages paid to the workers in France are about half the wages paid in this country. The wages of our English workers are much too low at the present time, but under Free Trade those wages have almost double the buying power of the wages paid to the French worker. In these circumstances it seems very strange that hon. Members opposite should advocate Safeguarding because they want to protect the wages and conditions of the working people of this country. That is a very strange doctrine coming from a party whose leaders for generations have been the arch-priests of the philosophy of low wages and long hours. Protection on the Continent has produced degrading conditions for the workers.
The hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft) seems to have a flair for figures, like most safe-guarders, and he has told us that last year we imported sufficient woollen manufactures to employ the whole of the unemployed of the West Riding of Yorkshire if those goods had been made in this country. Another hon. Member has told us that there are scores of thousands of unemployed in the West Riding of Yorkshire. Mr. H. Clough, a great textile expert in Bradford, has stated that even if all the textile imports were excluded by a tariff we should not be able to provide enough work for two-thirds of the looms which are now standing idle in Bradford alone. What hon. Members are telling us seems to me to be very much like the story of the old woman who said that she had seen thousands of cats in her back yard, and when the real facts were ascertained it was discovered that there were only two kittens.
The argument has been used that at the present time employers are living in an atmosphere of uncertainty. No doubt the present state of things must be a source of worry to them, but hon. Members opposite should recollect that the great bulk of British industrial workers live in a state of uncertainty all their lives, and we hear no protests from the benches opposite about the uncertainty of the livelihood of the workers. I do not believe for a moment that this uncertainty and depression, and the terrific amount of unemployment now existing, will ever be remedied by the application of tariffs. On the contrary, I believe that the remedy for depression and bad times is not a tariff, but in the reorganisation of industry and trade, and the socialisation of key industries; in the reduction of watered capital, and the cutting out of industry of those gilded directors who add nothing to the common lot and only hamper the wheels of industry. We ought to encourage the paying of higher wages to the workers in our own country, giving them increased buying power, and thus stimulating British home trade, which is as important as foreign trade. We could also improve matters by giving the children of the workers a better education up to the age of 15 at least. By these means, I believe this country might once more regain her former position in the markets of the world.
I am sure the whole House will have listened with interest to the speech of the hon. Member for North Kensington (Mr. West). I had fully expected in the course of the debate to> hear something which would have convinced those of us who believe that Free Trade is the best thing for this country that we were wrong, but I must confess that so far I have been disappointed. We were told yesterday that those of us who believed in Free Trade regarded it as a kind of religion. If religion it be, I must confess I have heard nothing up to date to make me want to alter mine. Whatever may be said against it, there is one thing at any rate that even the most active opponent cannot deny, and that is that this fiscal system has enabled this country to maintain a population of well over 40,000,000 in a very small area. It has, as the President of the Board of Trade reminded us yesterday, enabled this country to come through one of the most serious financial and economic crises that any country has ever faced, without disaster.
In that connection may I say that the United States would not lend money during the War to our Protectionist Allies except on the guarantee of Free Trade Great Britain. Speaking for myself, I must say I should want some very much stronger argument and stronger proof brought forward before I could be persuaded to support a change in the system which has stood such wonderful tests as the Free Trade system of this country has. I have heard not one new argument brought forward either yesterday or to-day. I have heard certainly a great deal about the inconsistency of right hon. Gentlemen on these Benches. Quotations were given to show that the inconsistency lay in the fact that to some extent we had been responsible for introducing these Measures. Hon. Members omitted to quote their own Leader in this connection. I think it would be a pity for the House to lose that quotation, and I intend to give it now. Speaking in 1922 the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition said:
If you omit motor cars, cycles, silk and musical instruments—and I think you are entitled to omit them, for gramophones are, as a matter of fact, the things which really bring up in large part your exports figures—you will find that the exports in the safeguarded industries have actually decreased. Who is there who would get up in this House and say that the increase in the export of motor cars, cycles, silk and gramophones is in any measure due to the Safeguarding Duties? It is manifestly absurd to suggest it. The real reason for the great increase not only in the export of these things but in their production in this country has been that there has been a world-wide demand for these particular goods which has been increasing every year since the War. As far as I can see, leaving these things out, there has been a decrease in exports in these particular safeguarded industries. As we have already stated, protective duties must sooner or later restrict our exports and as we depend more than any other country on our export trade, I do not think we can afford to take any further risks in this connection.
Another point which I have heard put forward is that these duties have compelled foreigners to build factories in this country, thereby giving employment to British workmen. While I do not for- one moment admit that argument, can I not ask the supporters of these duties to take a look at the other side of the fence? If, as they suggest, these protective duties compel foreigners to bring factories over here, will not that same system, if extended as it has been, compel us to put factories in their countries? How it is goins to assist British labour passes my comprehension. We have always stated that protective duties do increase the price of articles. We are challenged to name one single article which has been increased in price. That is a matter leads to a great deal of controversy. I would rather say this, that they either increase prices or prevent a fall in the prices that would otherwise be passed on in full to the consumer. I do not see why anybody should doubt that. If there is a duty of 33½ per cent, put on an article, it is going to increase the price to whoever happens to buy it. You either prevent a drop in prices or, as in many cases, you sell an inferior article at the price at which a better article was sold before the duty was put on. The hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth told us yesterday that these duties are not a tax on the people. He actually stated that the revenue from them totalled £12,000,000 and that that £12,000,000 went in the remission of taxation. But who on earth paid the £12,000,000 in the first instance? [An HON. MEMBER: " The foreigner! "]. I really thought that we had advanced beyond that stage. I should be very glad to think that, the next time I come into Dover and have to pay a duty on some small thing that I have brought, the foreigner is going to pay that duty. According to my experience, I shall have to pay it, and it will be found that the consumer pays it in this country every time. In case my opinion is not sufficiently powerful, I would mention that the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, speaking in this House on the 11th May, 1925, on the Silk Duties, said:
We are told that more employment is provided by these duties, and the hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth went so far as to say that since 1914 he could estimate that, directly and indirectly, something like 500,000 more people were employed in this country as a result of these duties. These duties cover the motor car industry, which was in its infancy in 1914. The gramophone industry was not nearly so much developed as it is now. It might just as well be said that the employment in the wireless industry is very much more to-day than it was in 1914. The real cause of the enormous increase in the production of British cars has, I am perfectly convinced, nothing to do with these duties whatever, because the greatest increase in production and in exports of British cars took place after these duties were removed. The real reason for the increase in the production of British cars is that the horse-power tax in this country makes it very attractive to British people to buy a car of low horsepower, and, if you look at the statistics, you will find that these cars make up the bulk of British production at the present time.
Really, however, I am not so concerned, and I do not think the House ought to be so concerned, with whether these industries have benefited to a great extent or not. What I am afraid of is that attempts will be made to extend these duties, under the pretext of their great success, to the heavy industries of this country, the wealth-producing industries. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for St. Ives (Mr. Runciman) has shown, in a way that I could not hope to do, the futility of trying to apply these duties to the coal industry, the cotton industry, and the shipbuilding industry, where a large part of the present unemployment exists. We have to consider industry in this country as a whole, and not in watertight compartments, and we must make up our minds sooner or later whether we are going to remain a Free Trade country or become an entirely Protectionist country. The greatness of this country in the past has been built up by the efficiency of our people, by their ability to meet and overcome competition, and I believe it would be disastrous if we in the House of Commons were responsible for the impression that all that our industries need do, when they came up against severe and serious competition, was to sit down and wait for a Protective duty. Rather let them believe that the only way for this country to get out of its difficulties is by the utmost efficiency and the best organisation that we can devise in our industries. If the people of our country rely on that, and not on methods of this kind, I do not think that we as a country need fear the future.
I am sorry that it is not my privilege formally to congratulate the hon. and gallant Gentleman who has just sat down, as I understand that he has previously delighted this House on other occasions; but I may say, speaking for myself, that I hope we shall have the privilege of hearing him many times again. One of the things that has struck me about this Debate is the earnestness and sincerity of every speech. I was particularly struck, if I may say so, with the speeches of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for St. Ives (Mr. Runciman) and of the President of the Board of Trade, but it seems to me very sad that two right hon. Gentlemen so well informed, so able, and so experienced, should have had their economic outlook so biased by their political theories. They are men who, as we are well aware, have made their names already in this House, and every word of theirs should be watched with great care and eagerly taken up; and it is with the greatest possible diffidence that I would make one or two criticisms of the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for St. Ives.
He said, referring to the tariff barriers from which Europe is suffering at the present time, that those barriers were an obstruction, and a very difficult obstruction, to all trade. Of course they are, and many Members of our party, including myself, are Free Traders provided that the rest of the world is Free Trade too. But, as long as the ports of the world are closed against us, and as long as ours are open for every country in the world to dump its over-production, we as patriots must take up the position of looking after the workpeople and the factories and works of our own country. That is one of the reasons for our attitude towards Safeguarding and Empire Preference to-day.
The right hon. Gentleman went on to say that Safeguarding would never help any industry because it was dependent on political support and subject to revision whenever a Parliament changed. That is what we are sorry for. We on this side believe that as patriots any Government that succeeds us will show the same care and anxiety for the workers of our country as we do, and that they will not reverse a policy which was designed for one purpose only, namely, to increase the trade of our country and provide a livelihood for our people. Therefore, I say with all due deference that a policy of Safeguarding is one that those in any quarter of the House should be able to support, because it is one that should never be dependent on any political party, or upon whether any one political party succeeds any other.
Finally he asked, " Where does the consumer come in?" I say what does it matter what the price of any article is if the unfortunate consumer has not the money to pay for it, and that is exactly the position that might arise. If we are going to be subject to this adverse competition from every part of the world the unfortunate consumer will not have any money left, because he is the man in the street, he is the manufacturer, he is the workman, he is ourselves. The President of the Board of Trade yesterday said: chills. These amiable, well-meaning gentlemen 25 years ago wrapped the woollen shawl of Free Trade round their heads and have been insensible to all the progress and change and movement that has taken place around them. One of these days they will wake up, and the country they are trying to control temporarily will wake up, and find that the winds that are sweeping past them have swept the shawl from about their heads and they will be rendered naked to face the piercing blast of competition.
There are many words I might have said and arguments I could easily have put forward to show in detail how the need for Safeguarding has arisen and to show what Safeguarding has done to benefit the workers. I cannot understand any member of the Labour party supporting a policy of Free Trade, knowing that it is directly detrimental to the interests of the people they are supposed to represent. I was delighted, as many others have been, to see one of the greatest discoveries that has been made in the last fortnight since Columbus discovered America. Lord Beaverbrook has removed his eyes from that somewhat circumscribed interior of the private railway wagon and has been able to see wide boundaries of which he has previously been ignorant. I, for one, thoroughly welcome his tremendous support to our cause, though I quarrel with him on one point. That is when he says it is a new thing. It is not a new thing. Imperial Free Trade within the Empire and a tariff barrier outside has been advocated by us for years past, and even in this House I have heard Lord Melchett, who has now become one of those angel faces so happily described by my Noble Friend the Member for Oxford University (Lord H. Cecil), advocate that policy with great thoroughness and sincerity and earnestness. If Lord Beaverbrook will give all the powerful influence he can exercise through his papers, I will certainly forgive him for his belated conversion, we will gladly support the great efforts he will make and we will give him the greatest of cheers when he is successful. I am speaking now to the unconverted on the other side, whose better feelings would like to bring them to a study of the true faith, whose loyalty to their constituents would like to bring them into the Lobby with us if only they dared. Look your Front Bench in the face. Face up to them. Prove yourselves men. Prove yourselves worthy representatives of a worthy people and come with us into the Lobby in support of this Amendment.
I think the House has, after all, to come to-night to a very serious decision, and this is a matter on which we on these benches are entitled to a fair and courteous hearing from those who are opposed to us. I have listened throughout to many things from which I differed without making any interruption. I will also endeavour to put my case without those provocative questions which, I think, led to some of the interruptions to which the Chancellor of the Exchequer was subjected. The Secretary of State for War, whose speech was, I think, enjoyed by the House, and not least of all by himself—he obviously enormously enjoyed his own speech—asked us all to vote for the policy of the Government, having made it clear that he was not going to say what that policy was. It would have been better to say the House was asked to give the Government time and to allow them to make their own announcement at their own moment. That is not what he asked for. He asked for a blank cheque that we should vote for the policy without being told what that policy was. Those of us who address meetings all over the country—and, of course, nobody opposite has had the experience we have had of addressing meetings—find that while many of our proposals are not listened to and many suggestions are ridiculed and decried, we get, in the working class districts, attention and a hearing on the subject of Safeguarding and far more sympathy than on any other subject.
There was a somewhat humorous reference to the relations of the Front Bench with the Back Benches, but right hon. Gentlemen who spoke from that Bench were not able to see the faces, naturally, of some of the hon. Members behind them. I can assure them that some of their Free Trade doctrines were not at all so well received by some hon. Members behind them as they thought they were being received, and for this reason. There are some Members on the Back Benches who still believe in Socialism as a remedy. I am aware that we are not to have Socialism in the time of this Government, but Socialism in somebody else's time. The point is, what are you going to do in the interval before you persuade the country that Socialism is the right policy? Are you going to leave the working classes of this country exposed to competition and cheap labour which you say yourselves exist, and a competition which you say you will deal with, not by a tariff but by prohibition?
I notice, for instance, as an example of the sympathy on the back benches for the Free Trade case that an hon. Member, who is very well known in this House and, I believe, has been elected for Newport—an hon. Member who has done a lot of Civil Service work—said that he was opposed to the export of capital on the ground that the interest on that capital came to this country in the form of goods. Its effect was to put our men out of work. He said that these goods coming in put our men out of work and made it impossible to give our people a decent standard of life. I do not agree with his proposal that there should be no export of capital. I suppose he would make -a particular exception of Russia in that matter. If he is opposed to the export of capital, it is a pity that he was not in this House to oppose the proposed loan to Russia. At all events, he contends that this importation of goods from abroad does put our people out of work, and, therefore, he was not in agreement with the point of view of the Front Bench.
10.0 p.m.
I think that one of the remarkable things in this Debate has been the tribute from the benches opposite to the success of the capitalist system. I find, for instance, that one hon. Member spoke of the fact that in a particular trade— 1 think it was the steel trade—21 per cent, of the workers were out of work, and he thanked the Government profoundly for what they were going to do. They were going to get an inquiry. I do not know whether the 21 per cent, is going to remain out of work while the inquiry goes on, but I do not think his supporters will be as enthusiastic in their gratitude as he is. What was his remedy? His remedy was not Socialism. He said that what was wanted in the steel trade was that we should adopt in this country those capitalist principles of combines and trusts and unions which have been so successful in the United States. That is a great tribute to capitalism. We have been privileged to have a further speech on that point from the President of the Board of Trade, and his speech, if I may say so respectfully, 1 very much admire. He attributed our success in the War to the way in which we had been able to borrow, and he spoke with pride of the enormous amount we have been able to borrow. Possibly there will be a further extension of this triumph under, the present Government before very long. At all events, he spoke of the capitalist system of borrowing as one of the things which had contributed to our success in the War. I think that he meant—he will tell me if I misquote him—that he attributed a good deal of our success in the War to Free Trade. He does not deny that. During the War we did not have Free Trade. Our principle competitor, Germany, was knocked out of competition altogether. Our home trade was conducted under a system of regulations, prohibitions and licences. It was during the War that a Free Trade Government abandoned Free Trade and, in order to win the War, adopted the McKenna Duties. My right hon. Friend the Member for St. Ives (Mr. Runciman) did not tell us very much about the Paris Resolutions when he was speaking this afternoon, although he had a good deal to do with them. We did not win the War owing to Free Trade because Free Trade was gone. What enabled us to win the War, and what gave us our financial position during the War, was the maintenance of the British Navy, which the present Chancellor of the Exchequer was attacking up to the very declaration of War.
We come to the Lord Privy Seal. He said, " I ask myself, ' What is it that we import to-day that we can make ourselves?'" That is a very powerful argument in favour of our contention in this whole matter. What is it that we import to-day which we can make ourselves? That is one of the great things which obviously affects the employment of our people. We ask for an inquiry. There has been one by the committee set up by the present Government when last in office. When the President of the Board of Trade criticised Safeguarding or criticised our Amendment, he made this point, that only one half of one per cent. of our export trade was affected. He very cleverly and judiciously took only those duties which are the Safeguarding Duties and he left out of his contention those portions of our export trade which are affected and encouraged by the McKenna Duties. He also left out of account altogether the whole question of Imperial Preference.
Take the McKenna Duties. There are experiments made in agricultural research under which a field is taken. One part of the field is subjected, in small sections, to different forms of treatment and you watch and see the effect upon the grass of the different forms of treatment. If you find a small part of the field yielding admirable results owing to treatment, you do not say that that part of the field is only one-half of one per cent, of the field. You do not try to add the whole yield of the hay crop to a field in order to prove a case. We say that it may be on a small scale, but examine that scale and see what actually happens. I hope that I shall be able to put the Free Trade case fairly. Their first contention is, that if you impose a duty on an imported article the price of that article goes up by the full amount of the duty. Their second contention is that, therefore, fewer articles are made, less employment is given and, naturally, you export less. What has actually happened in connection with the McKenna Duties? I would appeal to hon. Members to consider the Report of the Inquiry held by the Balfour Committee. They asked for an Inquiry. An Inquiry was instituted by the present Government when last they were in office. What do we find from that Report, on page 276, relating to the McKenna Duties?
We were told that there would be less employment.
The right hon. Member for St. Ives (Mr. Runciman) said that he did not know anything about prices. I think that comes very natural after some of the leaflets which were issued, showing imaginary rises in the prices of articles. I have quoted from the report of a body of able people, who were appointed by the Labour Government when they were in office. That Committee found that putting a duty on articles which, in the words of the Lord Privy Seal, " We can make ourselves," has led not to a rise in prices by the amount of the duty, but to a lowering of prices, an increase in production, more employment, and more exports. It may be that our experiment has been on a comparatively small scale, but hon. Members cannot answer us and convince us by saying that our action is wrong because the whole of our trade is not better, and the whole of our employment is not better. Our point is, that the experiment has only been made on a small scale, and where it has been made it has been triumphantly successful. That absolutely contradicts the four theories of the Free Trade case, which 1 think I have fairly stated.
Charges are made that under Safeguarding we shall have inefficiency. There is no greater example of efficiency than some of the key industries in this country at the present time. I cannot claim to speak with the knowledge or ability of my right hon. Friend the late President of the Board of Trade, and I would refer hon. Members to his speech, but it is certain that we are far ahead in things. like optical glass and in certain chemical industries under the Safeguarding of key industries. That has been brought about, as we believe, through Safeguarding. We have had a very curious example of the disconnection between theory and facts in the suggestion that what is wrong with the steel industry is that it needs better and more efficient methods in this country. I understood that it was only under Free Trade that we got efficient methods. Where is it that we find the highest production in the world? In the United States of America and Germany, both protected countries. Is there no connection between the encouragement given to an industry by Safeguarding and the opportunities which it has to get capital and to put in modern machinery? The right hon. Member for St. Ives quoted, most judiciously and fairly, certain figures from his own publication department which seem to have been very carefully edited. While he knew all about Russia and London, he had not the figures for Ottawa. Compared with our 100, the figures in Ottawa are 154, taking into account the cost of living. He had not the figures for the United States, where the figures are 189 to our 100. Therefore, unquestionably, the workers in those two countries are better off than the workers in this country. In case hon. Members opposite wish to pursue the Socialist alternative, I would remind them that the wages in Moscow, as compared with our 100 are 50. That figure is taken from the Labour party's hand book, and no doubt it is accurate. There is one thing in the Labour party's proposal which has somewhat a Protectionist leaning. They propose, I believe, to be unsound on this question in regard to agriculture. They propose, I understand, to stabilise prices, but no one has yet been able to say whether that means lower food prices, higher food prices or the same food prices. At all events it is supposed to confer some unknown benefit upon somebody. Their idea of stabilising prices is not new. It was tried in a rather amusing instance about 1,600 years ago by Diocletian, who issued an Edict, which may amuse hon. Members opposite and may concern some of them, in which he endeavoured to fix the price of certain necessaries of life. The necessaries of life which were scheduled were meat, vegetables, schoolmasters, orators and beer. The experiment failed.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer cannot he here to-night. He 'has very courteously sent me a message to that effect. I am not, thereby, debarred from replying to some of the statements he made in his speech. It is a pity that when he was discussing the West Riding he did not allude to the discrepancy between the speeches which he made in the West Riding and the Report which we have now got from the Committee which recommended certain duties in connection with the woollen industry. The Report advocates certain duties, although he said in his speeches in the West Riding that no such duties were recommended. In his speech to-day he made a not very generous and not very kindly attack upon his predecessor, for having changed his side. He appeared to have some contempt for his predecessor for having rejoined the wrong side. It was not very tactful of the right hon. Gentleman to allude to people who had changed their side, seeing that we are looking forward in this Debate to a speech from the Secretary of State for India. I can assure the Secretary of State for India, quite sincerely, that we wish him all success. I have always thought that his talents were wasted in raising small points of Order, and I wish him sincerely all success in his new Office. May I say, in defence of the right hon. Gentleman, that he has not that legal ability which enables some people to wait until the election is over before deciding on which side to be.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer has been, apparently, studying " Labour and the Nation," that splendid programme which was introduced last autumn, and of which we shall not see or hear very much more. That was a publication in which the present policy was included. Everything comes in its own order in that programme. It begins with arrangements which will give hon. Members opposite an earlier chance of getting political contributions from their constituents and ends with the proposal that England should no longer be affected in its own affairs by Welshmen or Scotchmen. In the middle are two passages. The first is a reference in very pleasant terms to Russia, with whom I understand trade is to be re-opened; and after Russia in that programme comes the British Empire. The Chancellor of the Exchequer appears to have reversed the plan. In the last Parliament we had a proposal from the Labour party—in spite of the view of the hon. Member for West Wolverhampton (Mr. W. Brown) that capital should not go abroad—that capital should be lent to the people of Russia, who were to be provided with goods and the money to pay for the goods, all of which was to bring some benefit to this country from the orders we should get.
Apparently, that scheme of helping Russia has been abandoned, and it is some sign of the development of Imperial Preference that the present Chancellor of the Exchequer has evidently at the back of his mind some idea of developing India and transferring all these arrangements, which were to have gone to Russia, to India. Apparently we are to get some scheme under which there is to be a great development of India. I am glad that India is now preferred to Russia. It is at all events one victory for the principle of Imperial Preference. The right hon. Member for St. Ives spoke of one other matter. He repeated the remark, which is made on every platform in the country in spite of all the historical evidence against it, and suggested that we lost the United States of America through Imperial Preference and an interference in their trade affairs. That is of course, a view constantly put from platforms by those who differ from the Conservative party, but I appeal from those who speak on platforms in this country to the people of America who were living in America at the time—and this is an important point. At the time when the American Colonies were about to break off they met at Philadelphia and set out what they called the " Bill of Rights." They set out all their grievances against the Mother Country, everything they could think of against us in justification of their action they put in that statement. It was a moment when they were bringing charges against us, and any exception carries especial weight, because they were writing in what might be called a moment of anger. They said:
At the beginning of his speech the right hon. and gallant Member said he would avoid making a provocative speech. He said he was going to make a pacific speech; instead of which he has been insulting hon. Members on this side of the House.
The hon. Member does not seem to be an authority on procedure by which interruptions are allowed, but I am not yet. aware that there is any Rule of this House which prevents anyone on these benches replying to points which have been put forward in the course of a Debate. Let me say how much I admired the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for St. Ives, because it seemed to me to put the Free Trade case with enthusiasm and with a clearness which was not altogether present in some of the speeches from the other side of the House.
I cannot close without referring to the great question which, at all events so far as I am concerned, has brought me into this controversy. It is the great question of Imperial Preference, and of Imperial development. Hon. Members opposite spoke with complete confidence of the identity of Labour with Free Trade, but I would remind them that there are other countries with just as highly educated constituents, places like Australia, where Labour Governments have been in power, and that those Labour Governments have owed a great deal of their strength to the advocacy not merely of moderate Safeguarding proposals, but of an extreme form of Protection. Therefore it is not open to hon. Members opposite to contend that Safeguarding is merely a matter for the employers, a matter which benefits a few people and is no good to the workers, because there are in other countries Labour parties which know more about it and which go much further in the direction of Protection than I personally have ever advocated.
Moreover, on the question of Imperial Preference, I would point out that overseas it is not a party question. The first proposal that ever came years ago was from a distinguished Dutchman of South Africa. After that we had proposals from Canada, from a Liberal Prime Minister. We have had the advocacy and practice of Preference by the Labour parties in Australia. The general run is that Governments come and Governments go in our Dominions, but Preference is consistently their policy. It is worth the while of hon. Members opposite to consider whether, to the next Imperial Conference, they cannot go some way to meet these views which are held by people of such widely different political opinions in all parts of the Dominions. They should remember, too, that, contrary to some of the speeches that have been made, there are cases in Australia, not as was suggested of shutting our goods out, but of putting on duties against foreign products and of admitting our goods free to the tune of over £20,000,000.
I ask, not that new duties shall be put on, but that wherever a duty is kept on by this country for revenue purposes, that duty should always be given in the form of preference on goods coming from within the Empire. I believe that that would give encouragement to our Dominions, who, after all, do buy from us rather than from other people elsewhere. I am told that this will injure shipping, and the argument is generally based on the experience of the United States. As a matter of fact it is probably true that in the United States, almost a self-contained continent trading State with State, the trade system has led to an enormous development of railways, because the internal trade is a trade by rail. But what we advocate is that we should develop in every way, not trade in this country alone, but the trade between us and the British Empire. We say that if we develop it more and more that will necessarily benefit shipping, just as the American system benefited American railways. Finally, we have had references to the United States. I think the disregarding of Colonial opinion may have had something to do with the loss of the United States.
One of the few prophecies made by Mr. Cobden which ever came true—and there were not many of that kind—was his prophecy that the Zollverein, uniting the scattered States of Germany, would ultimately make the people of Germany into one great united people. He believed that in fiscal unity was a bond of union and in Free Trade was a scattering influence. At all events, we ask the Government to give such notice as they can to us of their policy with reference to the McKenna Duties and the Safeguarding Duties and the preferences within them and, whatever may be the fate of those Duties, we ask them to consider whether they cannot agree to maintain the preferences at all events within such Duties as they may decide to retain.
The genial presence of the right hon. and gallant Member for Brighton (Major Tryon) in this House almost reconciles us to the continued existence of some electorally backward areas in. this country. Judging from the speech of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman politics have ot moved very far forward in his constituency since the days when His Most Gracious Majesty, King George IV reigned there. Indeed I thought that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman's defence of the policy of Lord North was one of the most powerful arguments in his speech. I cannot attempt, because the time is short, to follow him in every argument which he put forward. Although he spoke with conviction, he spoke with great variety, and he will forgive me if I drive straight ahead on my own argument, instead of attempting to follow him in what I may, without disrespect, describe as the crazy pavement of the case which he has made.
I would like, if it were possible in the brief time left to me, to lay down a few principles which will be accepted on all hands. The first is that we have had an Election. On that, I think we can all agree. But one would hardly think it to read the Amendment on the Paper. Not only have we had an Election but—I do not want to go into the painful domestic details of Conservative organisation into which I have no right to intrude—we have had an Election on which I understand a great deal of private inquiry and examination is proceeding. One would never think to read this Amendment that we are here to-day returned by an electorate which has declared, by a majority of 5,000,000 out of 22,000,000 votes cast, against the whole tenor of the Amendment. The curious thing—and it is a very comforting thing for anyone like me who is stoutly opposed to tariffs—is that we have come out of a sort of nightmare. For years we have had the ex-President of the Board of Trade talking as if he had some mandate for all these fiscal star chambers, and private inquiries and all the little nonsense about taxing pots and pans and buttons. The right hon. Gentleman has talked as if he had some mandate from the people of the country. As a matter of fact there never has been, in the history of living man, a mandate from the electors of this country for a protective system.
I remember the time when Mr. Joseph Chamberlain broke the Tory party on the question of tariffs. I did not hear the speech, but I am told that the late Secretary of State for the Dominions was trying to do the same thing again in the speech which he delivered to-day. Following that, we had from 1906 onwards, majorities consistently returned to this. House who were stoutly opposed to tariffs. Then came the War. Would anyone say that the election of 1918 was a mandate for Protection? It was partly an immense sigh of gratitude by the people and partly a vote of thanks to the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) for the energy he had displayed. In 1922 the country voted by eight to five against Protection; in 1923 they voted by eight to five against Protection; in 1924, with the assistance of the Zinovieff letter and the whole of that very discreditable electoral episode, the Conservative party were not able even then to secure for Protection a majority of the votes cast; and in 1929, when we come back here newly elected, with a majority of 13 to eight, excluding the plural Voters, against tariffs, they come forward with this Amendment and really expect us to treat it seriously.
There are two classes of tariffs in this country. There is what is called the McKenna group—though I am bound to say that long since Mr. McKenna has denounced all right or title to paternity or interest or belief in those duties—and there is the Safeguarding group. Both of these things—and they are the two main groups into which tariffs fall to-day —were imposed upon this country either by fraud or by ignorance.
On a point of Order. Is the right hon. Gentleman entitled to accuse the Leader of the Liberal party of fraud?
The hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft) appeals to me, but I think the Leader of the Liberal party is quite able to look after himself.
The intervention of the hon. and gallant Member anticipates an argument as to muddle-headedness to which I was going to refer later. I was saying that the McKenna Duties were continued in this country by a breach of pledge. Very few people remember either the origin of these duties or the pledges with which their introduction was accompanied. They were introduced during the War for th© purpose of saving tonnage, and when they were introduced the then Leader of the Conservative party gave in this House this pledge:
Now take the second group, the group that were introduced and perpetuated by ignorance—I mean the original Safeguarding of Industries Act group. All the paraphernalia, of the right hon. Member for Hendon (Sir P. Cunliffe-Lister) was built upon something very different from the thing itself. It was built on a thing called the Safeguarding of Industries Act, 1921, which was 'aimed at trying to cure the chaos of currency in Europe. That is often forgotten. It was on the question of prices, which is always an interesting feature of these fiscal Debates. I may recall what that noble Free Trader and Protectionist, Lord Melchett—I am not in a position to chaff people who change their politics—said when he was prevailed upon to take part in the Debate. He was rather shy, but when he did speak he made this perfectly frank statement about the purpose of this tariff. He said: " Of course, it will raise prices. That is the object of it." Its object was to attempt to correct the wild fluctuations in European currencies by some sort of tariff. It was intended, I suppose, to stem the flood of German imports, and no one stated more frankly than the late Prime Minister that the flood never materialised.
But without public approval, these two things, the McKenna group and the Safe- guarding group, have been made into what the Members of the late Government imagined was going to be a permanent part of the fiscal machinery of this country—without ever once having received the assent of the electors of this country. How on earth they could imagine that by protective tariffs they could cure unemployment, passes the comprehension of the ordinary individual. The late Chancellor has spoken with perfect frankness and with great light on this subject. Interruption.] Take a table of the value of imports and a table of employment; there is a curve showing that the more imports there are, the more employment there is. I will give the top arid bottom of the graph. In 1922, when there was the highest rate of unemployment, there was the lowest rate of imports. In 1927, when there was the lowest rate of unemployment there was the highest rate of imports. It is a fact that the more imports corresponded in the graph with more employment. How anybody could imagine you could further raise the export trades by putting a tariff on imports, passes the ordinary man's understanding. But there is a great muddle headedness in this matter. Some hon. Gentlemen clamour for German reparations and refuse to take German goods. Some hon. Gentlemen plead for the boring of a Channel Tunnel and want to stuff it up with an anti-French tariff. They want to keep out goods to create employment, and yet they tell you that by taxing the goods you create revenue. It is what Mr. Asquith very aptly described many years ago in this House as an incurable sloppiness of thought. Who pays this duty? That is an old conundrum in our Debates. Does anyone volunteer an answer?
Every foreign motor firm before motors came in.
That is the view that is shared by some. Others, like the late Dominion Secretary, think that the consumer pays. In 1914 when I was reading my copy of the Monthly Notes on Tariffs, I saw a little comment by the right hon. Gentleman, who is such a very vehement and moving exponent of Protection, and this is what he said. He explained it simply for people like ourselves.
at the time of the War in the way of prejudice. It is a shocking thing. I have a document here which I wish to read to the House, and I apologise for reading it because it is a shocking document. I picked it off the shelf to-day. It is dated from 22 Portland Place, and decorated with a coronet, and signed by Lord Duncannon. I quote it because I want to make my point that these tariffs are merely commercial exploitation of the War fever which we wish to see die out.
pro-German proposal. You can defeat it however by subscribing to our funds."
The broad defence of the policy of the Government is this: We want to lift this country out of the Balkan mire in which the late Government has put it. The League of Nations Conference, which is not a doctrinaire conference, but is attended by business men of various countries has declared that the time has come to put an end to these tariffs, and to move in the opposite direction. The Government wish to get for this country the proud position of the leadership of the world, as we have it in the way of peace and arbitration, and the leadership of the world back into the paths of economic sanity.
Question put, " That those words be there added."
The House divided: Ayes, 220; Noes, 340.
Division No. 1.] AYES. [10.48 p.m Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. Hartington, Marquess of Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles Crichton-Stuart, Lord C. Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Albery, Irving James Cranbourne, Viscount Haslam, Henry C. Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd,Henley) Allen, W. E. D. (Belfast, W.) Crookshank, Cpt.H.(Lindsey,Gainsbro) Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Croom-Johnson, R. P. Herbert, S.(York, N.R.,Scar.& Wh'by) Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West) Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Atholl, Duchess of Dalkeith, Earl of Home, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. Atkinson, C. Dairymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey Howard-Bury, Colonel C- K. Baillie-Hamilton, Hon. Charles W. Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford) Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley) Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer Balfour, George (Hampstead) Davies, Dr. Vernon Hurd, Percy A. Balfour, Captain H. H. (1. of Thanet) Davies, Maj. Geo.F.(Somerset, Yeovil) Hurst, Sir Gerald B. Balniel, Lord Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) lliffe. Sir Edward M. Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Dawson, Sir Philip Iveagh, Countess of Beaumont, M. W. Dixey, A. C. James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Bellairs, Commander Carlyon Duckworth, G. A. V. Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) Betterton, Sir Henry 3. Dugdale, Capt. T. L. Kindersley, Major G. M. Bevan, S. J. (Holborn) Eden, Captain Anthony Knox, Sir Alfred Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman Elliot, Major Walter E. Lamb, J. Q. Bird, Ernest Roy Erskine, Lord (Somerset,Weston-s.-M.) Law, Sir Alfred (Derby, High Peak) Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Everard, W. Lindsay Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart Falle, Sir Bertram G. Leighton, Major B. E. P. Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W. Fermoy, Lord Lewis, Oswald (Colchester) Boyce, H. L. Fielden, E. B. Little, Dr. E. Graham Bracken, B. Fison, F. G. Clavering Liewellin, Major J. J. Bralthwalte, Major A. N. Ford, Sir P. J. Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey Brass, Captain Sir William Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Locker-Lampson, Com. O.(Handsw'th) Briscoe, Richard George Frece, Sir Walter de Long, Major Eric Brown, Brig.-Gen.H.C.(Berks, Newb'y) Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Lymington, Viscount Bullock, Captain Malcolm Galbralth, J. F. W. McConnell, Sir Joseph Burton, Colonel H. W. Ganzoni, Sir John Macquisten, F. A. Butler, R. A. Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) Butt, Sir Alfred Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley) Makins, Brigadier-General E. Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Margesson, Captain H. D. Carver, Major W. H. Glyn, Major R. G. C. Marjoribanks, E. C. Castlestewart, Earl of Gower, Sir Robert Mason, Colonel Glyn K. Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Grace, John Meller, R. J. Cayzer, Maj.Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth.S.) Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter Merriman, Sir F. Boyd Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Greene, W. P. Crawford Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston) Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John Mond, Hon. Henry Christie, J. A. Gritten, W. G. Howard Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Morden, Col. W. Grant Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George Gunston, Captain Q. W. Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury) Cohen, Major J. Brunei Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester) Colman, N. C. D. Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Colville, Major John D. Hammersley, S. S. Muirhead, J. A. Conway, Sir W. Martin Hanbury, C. Nelson, Sir Frank Courtauld, Major J. S. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Nicholson, 0. (Westminster) Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn.W. G. (Ptrsf'ld) Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D. Turton, Robert Hugh Oman, Sir Charles William C. Savery, S. S. Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon O'Neill, Sir H. Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey) Peake, Captain Osbert Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down) Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull) Penny, Sir George Skelton, A. N. Wardlaw-Milne, J. S. Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) Warrender, Sir Victor Peto, Sin Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Klnc'dlne, C.) Wayland, Sir William A. Pilditch, Sir Philip Smith-Carington, Neville W. Wells, Sydney R. Power, Sir John Cecil Smithers, Waldron Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) Pownall, Sir Assheton Somerset, Thomas Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.) Purbrick, R. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Ramsbotham, H. Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East) Withers, Sir John James Reid, David D. (County Down) Southby, Commander A. R. J. Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount Remer, John R. Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Womersley, W. J. Rentoul, Sir Gervals S. Stanley, Lord (Fylde) Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Stanley, Ma). Hon. 0. (W'morland) Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall) Stewart, W. J. (Belfast, South) Wright, Brig.-Gen. W. D. (Tavlst'k) Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F. Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton Ross, Major Ronald D. Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton) Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. Thomson, Sir F. TELLERS FOR THE AYES— Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Tinne, J. A. Commander Sir B. Eyres Monsell Salmon, Major 1. Titchfield, Major the Marquess of and Major Sir George Hennessy. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Todd, Capt. A. J. Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Train, J.
NOES. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (File, West) Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Harbord, A. Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Cocks, Frederick Seymour Hardie, George D. Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) Harris, Percy A. Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro') Compton, Joseph Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Alpass, J. H. Cove, William G. Hastings, Dr. Somerville Ammon, Charles George Cowan, D. M. Haycock, A. W. Angell, Norman Daggar, George Hayday, Arthur Arnott, John Dallas, George Hayes, John Henry Aske, Sir Robert Dalton, Hugh Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Attlee, Clement Richard Davies, E. C. (Montgomery) Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.) Ayles, Walter Day, Harry Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Denman, Hon. R. D. Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) Baker, P. J. Noel (Coventry) Devlin, Joseph Herriotts, J. Baker, Walter (Bristol, E.) Dickson, T. Hirst, G. H. (York, W. R.,Wentworth) Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley) Dukes, C. Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Barnes, Alfred John Duncan, Charles Hoffman, P. C. Barr, James Ede, James Chuter Hollins, A. Batey, Joseph Edge, Sir William Hopkin, Daniel Beckett, John (Camberwell, Peckham) Edmunds, J. E. Hore-Belisha, Leslie Bellamy, Albert Edwards, E. (Morpeth) Horrabin, J. F. Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood Egan, W. H. Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) Bennett,Captain E.N.(Cardiff,Central) Elmley, Viscount Hunter, Dr. Joseph Bennett, William (Battersea, South) England, Colonel A. Isaacs, George Benson, G. Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univ.) Jenkins, W. (Giamorgan, Neath) Bentham, Dr. Ethel Foot, Isaac John, William (Rhondda, West) Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale) Forgan, Dr. Robert Johnston, Thomas Birkett, W. Norman Freeman, Peter Jones, F. Liewellyn- (Flint) Blindell, James Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.) Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Bowen, J. W. George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd (Car'vn) Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne) Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Broad, Francis Alfred George, Megan Lloyd (Angiesea) Jones, T. 1. Mardy (Pontypridd) Brockway, A. Fenner Gibbins, Joseph Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. Bromfield, William Gibson, H. M. (Lanes. Mossley) Kedward, R. M. (Kent, Ashford) Bromley, J. Gill, T. H. Kelly, W. T. Brooke, W. Gillett, George M. Kennedy, Thomas Brothers, M. Glassey, A. E. Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Brown, C. W. E. (Notts, Mansfield) Gosling, Harry Kinley, J. Brown, Ernest (Leith) Gossling, A. G. Kirkwood, D. Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Gould, F. Knight, Holford Brown, W. J. (Wolverhampton, West) Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton) Buchanan, G. Graham, Rt. Hon. Win. (Edin., Cent.) Lang, Gordon Burgess, F. G. Granville, E. Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George Burgin, Dr. E. L. Gray, Mliner Lathan, G. Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland) Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne) Law, Albert (Bolton) Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel (Norfolk, N.) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Law, A. (Rosendale) Caine, Derwent Hall- Griffith, F. Kingsiey (Middlesbro'W.) Lawrence, Susan Cameron, A. G. Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybrldge) Cape, Thomas Groves, Thomas E. Lawson, John James Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.) Grundy, Thomas W. Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle) Charleton, H. C. Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Leach, W. Chater, Daniel Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.) Church, Major A. G. Hall, Capt. W. P. (Portsmouth, C.) Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern) Clarke, J. S. Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn) Lees, J. Climie, R. Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Zetland) Lewis, T. (Southampton) Cluse, W. S. Harbison, T. J. Lindley, Fred W. Lioyd, C. Ellis Palmer, E. T. Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip Longbottom, A. W. Perry, S. F. Snowden, Thomas (Accrington) Longden, F. Peters, Dr. Sidney John Sorensen, R. Lovat-Fraser, J. A. Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Spero, Dr. G. E. Lowth, Thomas Phillips, Dr. Marion Stamford, Thomas W. Lunn, William Picton-Turberville, E. Stephen, Campbell Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) Pole, Major D. G. Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham) Ponsonby, Arthur Strachey, E. J. St. Loe MacDonald. Malcolm (Bassetlaw) Potts, John S. Strauss, G. R. Macdonald, Sir M. (Inverness) Price, M. P. Sullivan, J. McElwee, A. Pybus, Percy John Sutton, J. E. McEntee, V. L. Quibell, D. F. K. Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln) Mackinder, W. Ramsay, T. B. Wilson Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.) McKinlay, A. Rathbone, Eleanor Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby) MacLaren, Andrew Raynes, W. R. Thome, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Maclean, Sir Donald (Cornwall, N.) Richards, R. Thurtie, Ernest Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Tillett, Ben MacNeill-Weir, L. Riley, Ben (Dewsbury) Tinker, John Joseph McShane, John James Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees) Toole, Joseph Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Ritson, J. Tout, W. J. Mander, Geoffrey le M. Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W.Bromwich) Townend, A. E. Mansfield, W. Romeril, H. G. Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles March, S. Rosbotham, D. S. T. Turner, B. Marcus, M. Rothschild, James L. Do Vaughan, D. J. Markham, S. F. Rowson, Guy Viant S. P. Marley, J. Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter Walkden, A. G. Mathers, George Russell, Richard John (Eddisbury) Walker, J. Matters, L. w. Salter, Dr. Alfred Wallace, H. W. Maxton, James Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen) Wallhead, Richard C. Melville, J. B. Samuel, H. W. (Swansea, West) Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Tudor Messer, Fred Sanders, W. S. Watkins, F. C. Middleton, G. Sandham, E. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Millar, J. D. Sawyer, G. F. Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Mills, J. E. Scott, James Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah Montague, Frederick Scrymgeour, E. Wellock, Wilfred Morgan, Dr. H. B. Scurr, John Welsh, James (Paisley) Morley, Ralph Sexton, James Welsh, James C. (Coatbridge) Morris, Rhys Hopkins Shakespeare, Geoffrey H. Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) West, F. R. Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh) Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Westwood, Joseph Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South) Sherwood, G. H. Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.) Shiels, CI.'. Drummond White, H. G. Mort, D. L. Shillaker, J. F. Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood) Moses, J. J. H. Shinwell, E. Whiteley, William (Blaydon) Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Wilkinson, Ellen C. Mosley, Sir Oswald (Smethwick) Simmons, C. J. Williams, David (Swansea, East) Muff, G. Simon, E. D. (Manch'ter, Withington) Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly) Muggeridge, H. T. Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Murnin, Hugh Sinclair, Sir A. (Caithness) Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) Nathan, Major H. L. Sinkinson, George Wilson, J. (Oldham) Naylor, T. E. Sitch, Charles H. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Smith, Alfred (Sunderland) Winterton, G. E.(Leicester,Loughb'gh) Oldfield, J. R. Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhlthe) Wise, E. F. Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston) Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) Wood, Major McKenzle (Banff) Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley) Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) Wright, W. (Rutherglen) Owen, Major G. (Carnarvon) Smith, Rennle (Penistone) Young, R. S. (Islington, North) Owen, H. F. (Hereford) Smith, Tom (Pontefract) Palin, John Henry Smith, W. R. (Norwich) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Paling, Wilfrid Snell, Harry Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Charles Edwards.
Main Question again proposed.
It being after Eleven of the Clock, the Debate stood adjourned.
Debate to be resumed To-morrow.
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
Adjournment
Resolved, " That this House do now adjourn."— {Mr. Kennedy.]
Adjourned accordingly at Four Minutes after Eleven o,Clock.