House of Commons
Thursday, November 21, 1929
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
Oral Answers to Questions
Unemployment
Islington
asked the Minister of Labour what is the percentage of unemployment in the Borough of Islington; and how many people have been refused benefit on the grounds of not genuinely seeking work?
At 11th November, persons resident in the Metropolitan Borough of Islington who were on the registers of Employment Exchanges represented 4.8 per cent. of the insured population in the borough. Statistics on the same basis are not available as regards the disallowance of claims to benefit made by all persons resident in Islington, but 30 claims for benefit made at the Holloway Employment Exchange were disallowed during the four weeks ended 11th November, on the ground "not genuinely seeking work." In addition, Courts of Referees recommended for disallowance 11 cases on the same ground on review after payment of 78 days' benefit.
Foreign Musicians
asked the Minister of Labour whether her attention has been drawn to the fact that permission for several famous British bands to perform in the United States of America has been refused by the American authorities; and will she consider restricting the permits for American bands to perform in this country?
asked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of the refusal of the authorities to allow British bands to enter the United States and of the prevailing unemployment among British band musicians, she will reconsider the policy of permitting bands from the United States to come into this country?
I am not aware of any cases in which the United States authorities have refused permission to British bands to perform in that country. As I have recently stated in reply to questions by the hon. Members for Ilford and for Salford, I am satisfied that the entry into this country of foreign musicians is being limited to the fullest extent which is justifiable.
Will the right hon. Lady make inquiries with regard to the refusal of a permit to Mr. Jack Hylton's orchestra?
I have made full inquiries. If the hon. Member wishes to consult me, I will go into the matter.
Why should it be the policy of the Government to restrict music coming into this country when they are in favour of the unrestricted import of American goods?
May I ask the right hon. Lady whether she made inquiries previous to giving the reply to the hon. Member for Southwark (Mr. Day). Has she made inquiries with regard to Mr. Hylton's band?
Yes, Sir. I have.
asked the Minister of Labour how many alien bands are now performing in this country; how many have received permission to enter since the present Government came into office; and how many members of the musicians' union are employed?
Seven alien bands at present have permission to give performances in this country, the permits in two cases having been granted for stage performances only. Permits to enter the country have been issued to 11 alien bands since 1st June last, four permits being in respect of stage performances only. I have no information in regard to the last part of the question.
How many musicians are concerned?
I must have notice of that question.
Leith
asked the Minister of Labour the number of claims for benefit made and the number disallowed at the Employment Exchange, Quality Street, Leith, with the reasons for such disallowances, during the first 10 months of the years 1926 and 1929, respectively?
Claims for unemployment benefit made at the Quality Street, Leith, Employment Exchange. Period 12th January to 15th November, 1926. Period 15th January to 11th November, 1929. Number of Fresh and Renewal Claims made 31,102 Number of Fresh and Renewal Claims made 18,349 ( a ) Disallowances by Insurance Officers.* Applications for Extended Benefit recommended for disallowance by the Leith Local Employment Committee. Permanent provisions. First Statutory condition†(30 contributions in past two years) 7 Reasons for disallowance: Not unable to obtain suitable employment 30 Not normally insurable and not seeking to obtain a livelihood by means of insurable employment 227 Not genuinely seeking work 1,357 Insurable employment not likely to be available 112 Employment lost through misconduct 132 Not a reasonable period of insurable employment during the preceding two years 445 Employment left voluntarily without just cause 280 Other grounds 139 Transitional provisions. Not making every reasonable effort to obtain suitable employment or not willing to accept suitable employment 588 Less than 8 contributions paid in previous two years or 30 contributions paid at any time 5 Single persons residing with relatives 706 Not normally insurable and not seeking to obtain a livelihood by means of insurable employment and not a reasonable period of insurable employment during the preceding two years 349 Married women who could look for support from their husbands 66 Married men who could look for support from their wives 20 Working short time but earning sufficient for maintenance 176 Total claims disallowed 2,299 Alien 1 Postponed for a definite period 297 ( b ) Claims recommended for disallowance by Courts of Referees on review after payment of 78 day's benefit.) Claims recommended for disallowance by Courts of Referees on review after payment of 78 day's benefit. Total recommended for disallowance 2,638 Not genuinely seeking work 209 Other grounds 4 Statistics of the claims disallowed by Insurance Officers in this period are not available. Total recommended for disallowance 213 * The figures relate to claims to benefit and not to separate individuals. In a number of these cases the decisions were reversed on appeal to Courts of Referees. The figures relate to claims to benefit and not to separate individuals. In a number of these cases the decisions were reversed on appeal to Courts of Referees. †This condition at present operates only in the case of juveniles under 18 years of age.
As the reply includes a number of figures, I will, if I may, circulate a statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT of such figures as are available.
Following is the statement:
Exchange Facilities, Grangetown and Macclesfield
asked the Minister of Labour the number of unemployed persons resident at Grangetown who are now compelled to sign the unemployed register at South Bank, owing to the closing down of the branch office at Grangetown?
The number of unemployed persons using the South Bank Exchange who live in Grangetown is 311.
asked the Minister of Labour whether she can make any statement with reference to the provision of a new Employment Exchange in Macclesfield, as promised by her predecessor.
This matter is under active consideration.
Is the right hon. Lady aware that for the last five years this matter has been under consideration and that the late Minister of Labour promised that it would be done during the present summer?
I only draw the hon. Member's attention to the fact that I used the words "active consideration."
Is the right hon. Lady aware that, at the present Employment Exchange, people have to remain out in the open, in a very exposed place, and will she see to it that a new Exchange is available before the bad weather comes along?
I assure the hon. Member that I am giving the greatest attention to the matter.
Morris Committee (Evidence)
asked the Minister of Labour if she will publish the evidence placed before the Morris Committee on Unemployment Insurance; and, if so, if a copy will be placed in the Library for the use of Members?
This evidence has now been published and a copy is available in the Library.
Seeing that this volume costs 12s. 6d. and that there is only one copy in the Library, and as there will be a great demand for it on the part of Members of Parliament in the next day or two, would not the right hon. Lady see that two or three extra copies are made available?
This is a Stationery Office publication, and Members of Parliament can obtain copies by application in the usual way.
Statistics
asked the Minister of Labour how many more unemployed there are to-day than when the present Government took office?
At 11th November, 1929, there were 146,342 more persons on the registers of Employment Exchanges in Great Britain than at 10th June, 1929.
Does the right hon. Lady realise that this figure is 44,000 more than when I asked a similar question about a fortnight ago; and when are the Government going to reduce unemployment?
I would only point out that it is 50,000 less than it was this time last year.
But does not the Minister realise that it was the Socialists who made promises during the General Election?
Can the right hon. Lady give figures for the same period last year?
16, 17 and 18.
asked the Minister of Labour (1) the number of applications for unemployment benefit granted and refused, respectively, during each of the last six months;
(2) the number of insured persons aged 16 to 24 years in employment in the following industries on 1st July, 1929, and, for comparison, also on 1st July, 1925: motor vehicles, silk and artificial silk, lace, and musical instruments;
(3) if the count of unemployment insurance cards for last July is now complete; if so, can she state the number of insured persons, aged 16 to 64, on 1st July, 1929, and the number of these who were estimated to be in employment; and if, for comparison, she can furnish the corresponding figures estimated for the same age limits during each of the last five years?
As the replies to these questions involve tabular statements, I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate them in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the reply to Question No. 16:
Statistics are not available regarding the number of fresh and renewal claims made over a given period which are
Period. Fresh and renewal claims made. Claims disallowed. By insurance Officers. * Claims recommended for disallowance by Courts of Referees on review after payment of 78 days benefit. 5 weeks ended—13th May, 1929 870,067 65,467 4,431 4 weeks ended—10th June, 1929 713,616 46,236 4,054 4 weeks ended—8th July, 1929 705,716 45,704 4,927 5 weeks ended—12th August, 1929 892,089 88,588†5,477 4 weeks ended—9th September, 1929 693,912 65,540†4,989 5 weeks ended—14th October, 1929 923,212 52,008 5,236 * In a number of these cases the decision was reversed on appeal to Courts of Referees. In a number of these cases the decision was reversed on appeal to Courts of Referees. †Including a large number of disallowances arising from the dispute in the cotton industry. During the six months May to October there was an average of 993,631 claimants on the Register. Of this number 975,358 were claims which had been admitted or were under consideration.
Following is the reply to Question No. 17:
Industry. Estimated numbers insured. Numbers unemployed. Differences 1925. 1929. 1925. 1929. 1925. 1929. Motor vehicles, cycles and aircraft 210,700 243,230 11,780 14,840 198,920 228,390 Silk and artificial silk 45,620 73,480 2,870 5,907 42,750 67,573 Lace 18,540 16,920 3,220 1,655 15,320 15,265 Musical instruments 20,860 28,330 1,230 2,087 19,630 26,243
granted and refused respectively, and the statistics of disallowances within any period include a number of claims which were not made within that period. In a number of cases a disallowance arises during the period of currency of the claim and after benefit has been paid thereon. The following table gives the number of applications for unemployment benefit made during each of the last six months together with the number of claims disallowed during the same period, and for the whole period the average number of claimants on the register and the number whose claims had been admitted or were under consideration.
The following table gives figures in respect of the age group 16–64 for the end of June in 1925 and 1929.
Following is the reply to Question No. 18:
ESTIMATED NUMBERS of PERSONS aged 16 to 64 insured under the UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE ACTS in GREAT BRITAIN. Date. Estimated numbers Estimated numbers in employment after allowing for numbers unemployed, the numbers absent from work through sickness or other unrecorded non-employment other than temporary holidays and those directly involved in trade disputes. End of June, 1924. 11,061,000 9,644,000 End of June, 1925. 11,271,000 9,552,000 End of June, 1926. 11,422,000 8,343,000 * End of June, 1927. 11,526,000 10,104,000 End of June, 1928. 11,629,000 9,975,800 End of June, 1929. 11,834,000 10,288,900 * The general coal mining dispute was in progress. The general coal mining dispute was in progress.
Trade Disputes
asked the Minister of Labour what is the usual procedure taken to determine whether workmen looked out by any body of employers are entitled to unemployment insurance benefit?
The usual machinery of the insurance officer, court of referees and Umpire operates. The facts relating to the stoppage are reported to the chief insurance officer in the first instance, and upon them he gives his decision. If he allows the claim no further action is necessary. If he disallows the claim appeal may be made to the court of referees and normally to the Umpire. Where large numbers are concerned it is usual to take test claims which are typical of the grades of workers concerned in the dispute.
Sheffield
asked the Minister of Labour the number of persons deprived of benefit by the Sheffield Employment Exchange for not genuinely seeking work for the months of August, September, and October, 1928 and 1929?
As the reply includes a number of figures I will, if I may, circulate a statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the statement:
CLAIMS TO BENEFIT made at the Sheffield Employment Exchange disallowed on the ground—"not genuinely seeking work." Period. Disallowed by Insurance Officers. Recommended for disallowance by Courts of Referees on review after payment of 78 days' benefit. 1929. 4 weeks ended—9th Sept. 376 91 5 weeks ended—14th Oct. 207 123 4 weeks ended—11th Nov. 127 45 1928. 4 weeks ended—10th Sept. 168 45 4 weeks ended—8th Oct. 220 52 5 weeks ended—12th Nov. 374 59
Liverpool
asked the Minister of Labour the number of unemployed people registered in Liverpool for any particular week-end in November?
At 11th November, 1929, there were 57,784 persons on the registers of Employment Exchanges in Liverpool.
Transfer of Workers
asked the Minister of Labour what number of workers have been transferred under the industrial transference scheme during the last five months; and what was the total for the same period last year?
During the five months June to October, 1929, approximately 13,350 persons have been transferred from depressed areas under the industrial transference scheme. I regret that comparable statistics for the corresponding period of 1928 are not available.
Could the Minister give figures for the period—say from August—after the industrial transference scheme came into full operation last year?
I must have notice of that question.
Dependants
asked the Minister of Labour what is the number of dependants of each of the following classes: female person not residing with a beneficiary but employed by him in the care of his dependent children; father or stepfather who is mentally or physically incapacitated; and dependent child aged 14 to 16 and unable by reason of infirmity to attend school, who are likely to be brought within the scope of the Unemployment Insurance Acts?
I regret that statistics giving the desired information are not available.
Juveniles
asked the Minister of Labour what is her estimate of the numbers of boys and girls, respectively, who will be brought within the scope of unemployment insurance on the raising of the school age to 15?
If the school-leaving age is raised to 15 plus on the 1st April, 1931, it is estimated that 300,000 boys and girls (180,000 boys and 120,000 girls) will be brought within the scope of Unemployment Insurance under the terms of Clause 1 of the Unemployment Insurance Bill.
asked the Minister of Labour whether she has any information to show the number of unemployed juveniles between 14 and 16 years of age at the present time; and the percentage it is of the total number of juveniles of those ages available for employment?
I regret that I have no accurate information about the number of unemployed boys and girls under the age of 16.
Insurance (No. 2) Bill
asked the Minister of Labour whether the data upon which the estimate of ÂŁ3,250,000, put forward in paragraph 8 of the memorandum which precedes the Unemployment Insurance (No. 2) Bill, is based can be made available to Members?
The principal data are the figures as to disallowances contained in pp. 113/115 of the Ministry of Labour Report for 1928 (Cmd. 3333) and other statistics published monthly in the Labour Gazette. A table of disallowances was also appended to the Report of the Committee over which Sir Harold Morris, K.C., presided recently. I would point out that the Memorandum to which the hon. Member refers and the Government Actuary's Report (Cmd. 3437) indicate that the data available are not such as to lead to a close estimate.
asked the Minister of Labour if she can give any estimate the amount of saving likely to result to local rates in respect of poor relief if the Unemployment Insurance (No. 2) Bill is passed in its present form?
While some relief to local rates will no doubt be given owing to some persons being allowed unemployment benefit who are not at present receiving it, I am not able to given an estimate of the amount.
What is the difference between relieving the local rates and putting the burden on the taxpayers?
asked the Minister of Labour whether she will give the items of the sum of ÂŁ12,000,000 which it is estimated represents the total additional benefits provided annually by the provisions of the Unemployment Insurance (No. 2) Bill?
The items making up the sum of ÂŁ12,000,000 are given in paragraph 7 of the Report by the Government Actuary on the Financial Provisions of the Bill (Cmd. 3437).
Road Work, Scotland
asked the Minister of Labour whether she is prepared to approve work on the Thurso-Glengolly-Halkirk-Hoy road for the employment of transferred men; and, if not, on what grounds her refusal is based?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. The remote situation of this work and the few opportunities for industrial employment in the area do not make it suitable for the absorption of men from the depressed mining areas.
Why is it that it is proper to employ men from distressed mining areas on trunk roads in the same part of the country, but improper to employ them on roads which are used by ordinary country people going about their ordinary business?
The purpose of transference is that men may be absorbed in the district to which they are transferred or in relation to the work in that district, but when we get to John o' Greats it is difficult to see how they could be permanently absorbed up there.
Courts of Referees
asked the Minister of Labour if she will seek to establish at Middleham-in-Teesdale, Stanhope, and Lanchester courts of referees in order to save men and women having to walk or travel long distances, thus avoiding waste of time and money, and appointing at each suggested court men and women resident in the district?
A considerable extension of the organisation of courts of referees will be necessary when the Unemployment Insurance Bill becomes law, and I will bear my hon. Friend's request in mind in that connection.
Govan (Appeals)
33, 34 and 35.
asked the Minister of Labour, (1) whether she is now in a position to give the particulars in the case of J. McGuire, of 80, Hamilton Street, Govan, which were asked for on 21st October, 1929;
(2) how many cases sent from the Govan Employment Exchange to the court of referees were turned down but given leave to appeal to the umpire; in how many of these cases the insurance officer has cancelled such leave on the U I, 182 A; and under what statute or regulation such powers are exercised by the insurance officer?
(3) whether she is aware that James McCarroll, care of Thomson, 115, Elder-park Street, Govan, was before a court of referees at Glasgow on 28th October, 1929, on the ground that he was not normally employed in an insurable occupa- tion; that he was refused benefit but given leave to appeal to the Umpire; whether she is aware that, on the U.I. 182A, he is recorded as being disallowed 7 (1) (1) and leave to appeal to the Umpire cancelled by the insurance officer; whether she can state the reason for the alteration of cause of disallowance; and why the insurance officer cancelled the leave to appeal to the Umpire?
I wrote fully yesterday to my hon. Friend regarding the case of J. McGuire. As regards the matters raised in Question No. 34, I am unable to give the numbers asked for in the first part of the question. In regard to the remainder of the question, inquiries in connection with the question put by my hon. Friend on the 31st October brought to light clerical errors in a certain number of cases. Corrective action was at once taken, and I should like to make it clear to my hon. Friend that the insurance officer had no intention whatever of interfering with the decision of the court of referees to grant leave to appeal to the Umpire. This matter is entirely within the discretion of the court itself. I am making inquiries into the case of James McCarroll, and will let my hon. Friend know the result as soon as possible.
Is my right hon. Friend not aware that when I reported these matters to the local officer, I was informed by him that the insurance officer had the right to cancel leave given by the chief insurance officer and that she herself in October also stated, in reply to a supplementary question, that he had statutory right to cancel the leave given by a court of referees?
I think there must be some confusion between the local officer and the chief insurance officer.
No. I would ask my right hon. Friend to consider the reply which she made to the supplementary question I addressed to her on 31st October.
Political Parties (Consultation)
asked the Prime Minister whether he is now prepared definitely to invite representatives from the two Opposition parties with a view to the immediate constitution of an all-party committee for dealing with the problem of unemployment; and, if not, on what conditions and when he will be prepared to do so?
I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the answer which I gave on Monday last in reply to questions on this subject, there being no change in the situation since then.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that the responsibility for the initiative in a matter of this kind rests upon the Government and not upon the Opposition?
So far as the Government are responsible for initiative, I would refer the hon. and gallant Gentleman to the end of my answer last Monday.
Ministry of Labour (Insurance Officers)
asked the Minister of Labour the number of insurance officers employed throughout the country and at the Chief Insurance Officers' Department at Kew, respectively, for the year 1925 and at the latest available date?
According to the latest return the number of officers acting as insurance officers at the local offices of the Department was 1,758 at the end of September last. The number of insurance officers at Kew is at present 56. No accurate figures are available for 1925, but as there was then, as now, at least one local insurance officer at each Employment Exchange and Branch Employment Office, the present position does not materially differ from the position at that date.
Employed Persons (Annual Holiday)
asked the Minister of Labour the cost to employers if employed persons were given a week's holiday annually at full wages?
I regret that the information available as to the numbers and wages of employed persons who at present do not receive payment for holidays, the extent to which the engagement of substitutes would be necessary, and the effects on output and efficiency of the grant of a week's holiday, with pay, is insufficient to provide a satisfactory basis for an estimate of the probable cost to employers of this proposal.
Is it not the intention of the Government to allow facilities for the Annual Holiday Bill?
I think it was made perfectly clear that the Government would not allow facilities.
Has the right hon. Lady any evidence to show that it would cost the employers anything, and that they would not gain in the improvement of the workers?
Profit-Sharing and Copartnership Schemes
asked the Minister of Labour, in view of the fact that the number of employed persons affected at present by profit-sharing or co-partnership schemes is only in the neighbourhood of 1 per cent. of the employed population, what steps the Government propose to take to substantially increase this percentage and so promote an industrial order based on partnership and co-operation?
In my view, schemes of this character can only be put into successful operation as the result of voluntary action by the parties directly concerned I agree with the views on this matter expressed by the Balfour Committee.
Whist Drives
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether any further instructions have been issued by his Department to the Metropolitan police during the last three months with reference to any future prosecutions of the promoters of whist drives for prizes; and whether he proposes to abide by the instructions issued by his predecessor?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. The answer to the second part, after full consideration, is in the affirmative.
Borstal Institutions
asked the Home Secretary the cost during the year 1928 of the Borstal camps; how much of the amount was provided by public funds; how much by private funds; and whether he proposes this current year to ask the Treasury to meet the whole cost of these camps from public funds?
The Exchequer has only contributed to the camp fund a sum equivalent to what the Borstal Institution save in maintenance expenses while the inmates are away in camp. All the additional cost—which in 1928 amounted to £491—has been met from the fund raised by the Borstal Association. For the current year the money for this additional cost has already been raised by the Borstal Association and the cost defrayed.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that, as this is only such a small amount, it should come out of public funds, not private funds?
If that small amount can be met out of private funds, I see no reason why it should not be done.
asked the Home Secretary with regard to the old convict prison at Portland, which is now used as a Borstal Institution, whether any structural alterations have been made to alter the penal character of the interior and exterior; and whether, in view of the number of attempted escapes, he will take steps to bring it into line with the spirit and practice of the institution at Aylesbury?
One of the best pieces of work done by Borstal inmates has been the transformation of the old convict halls at Portland which were merely blocks of cells into self-contained Borstal houses with well-lit dining rooms, recreation rooms and class rooms. Three of the five halls have been reconstructed and work is in progress on the others. The spirit underlying the treatment of the boys at Portland is similar to that underlying the treatment of the girls at Aylesbury, but the methods of training are necessarily different.
asked the Home Secretary the number of cases in which the inmates of Borstal homes have run away during the last 12 months, and the nature of the inquiry which ensues?
Amongst a Borstal population of about 1,400 there have been in the last 12 months 60 cases of running away. This figure includes those who were recovered immediately after escaping. In each case a full report of the facts is required and if there is any matter calling for investigation, an inquiry is held.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say how many of these boys have returned?
No, I cannot.
Aliens (Russians)
asked the Home Secretary the nature of the permit he recently gave to two Russians, Ossifor and Stoutsky, to enter this country; what was its duration; and what information he has in his possession concerning their activities in this country?
Before this question is answered, may I call attention to the fact that there are no initials and no prefix attached to these names? Is it not customary either for initials or some prefix to be put to names of this kind, and is it in order for such an unmannerly question to be put on the Order Paper?
No point of Order arises.
I may say, Mr. Speaker, that the names in the question are not correctly spelled. Messrs. Ossipov and Slutsky were, with my full knowledge, given leave to land on the 28th September for seven days and this period was subsequently extended to two weeks. It would be quite contrary to the established practice to answer the last part of the question.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the strong complaint which has been made by the Miners' Federation of Great Britain against the activities of these men in this country, and that they state that they went to Scotland and made trouble and mischief there?
The representatives of the Scottish miners raised no objection to the incoming of the two persons referred to, though I believe that some complaint was afterwards made in respect to their activities.
Will the right hon. Gentleman be more careful another time?
No more careful than I have been though I think greater care might be exercised in putting down these questions.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that the second of these aliens is a well-known traveller for Messrs. Guinness?
asked the Home Secretary what is the number of undesirable Russians at present in this country who have been recommended for deportation upon conviction for committing criminal offences or for other reasons, and who have remained here owing to the refusal of the Soviet authorities to admit them to Russia; and if he will state whether under the Lewes agreement the deportation of these persons will be facilitated?
I am informed that since the 1st January, 1924, there have been some 70 cases in which it has not been possible to secure the deportation of undesirable aliens of Russian origin. It is the practice to take all possible steps to limit the activities of such persons so long as they remain in this country. The recent agreement does not deal with this subject, but the presence in this country of an Ambassador from the U.S.S.R., will no doubt facilitate the investigation of claims to Soviet nationality.
Does the right hon. Gentleman mean that persons who are proved to be of Russian nationality and have been recommended for deportation, will not be deported when the Soviet Agreement is announced?
What I mean is that there are many cases which can be considered after the agreement.
Why are these men not deported?
You were in office.
The answer has already been given. During the greater part of the period covered by my reply, the late Government were in power.
Is it not a fact that the Russian Government refuse to take these people back owing to the fact that there was no diplomatic recognition; now that there is diplomatic recognition, will the right hon. Gentleman see that the Russian Government do take their undesirable citizens home?
That is covered by the latter part of my reply.
Prisoners (Flogging)
asked the Home Secretary the number of cases in which the "cat" has been administered in British prisons during each of the last three years, as part of the original sentence and/or for offences against prison discipline, respectively?
As the answer involves a number of figures, I will circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the answer:
The figures are:
Under sentence of a Court— In 1927 15 In 1928 20 In 1929 to date 4 Under an order of a visiting committee or board of visitors for prison offences— In 1927 6 In 1928 10 In 1929 to date 5
These figures do not include birchings.
Royal Commission on Licensing
asked the Home Secretary whether he can give any estimate of the cost per day of the Royal Commission on Licensing?
It is not possible to furnish any useful estimate of the kind suggested.
Will the Commission have to obtain authority from this House or from the Home Secretary if they propose to leave this country and make inquiries abroad?
The conditions so far as expenditure are concerned, will be followed according to the usual practice, but I think there is a point for inquiry in the question put by the right hon. Gentleman.
Does the right hon. Gentleman think this Commission will be worth the money whatever it costs?
London Transport (Queues)
asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that the inadequate tramcar and omnibus accommodation during the rush hours in London causes a dangerous and exhausting scramble among intending passengers; and whether he will, arrange for the police to institute a queue wherever necessary at tramcar and omnibuse termini or stopping places?
I am aware of the facts and the problem that they present has already been carefully examined by the appropriate authorities. Their conclusion, from which I fear there is no escape, is that the organisation of queues would not, for a variety of reasons, be a practicable remedy in present circumstances.
Is it not a fact that in certain parts of London queues are already in operation?
That is so, but I think that it is almost always in connection with tramcars.
Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to see that at least they are arranged in connection with tramcars?
I will look into that point.
Would not the provision of underground railways have been expedited if the present Government had not stopped the Bills?
Public Health
Encephalitis Lethargica
asked the Home Secretary whether he intends to take action to see that accused persons who are known to have suffered from encephalitis lethargica receive appropriate medical treatment and are not treated as criminals?
As regards accused persons sent to prison on remand or awaiting trial, if the medical officer has reason to believe that they have suffered from encephalitis lethargica a report on their medical history and present condition is made to the Court, and the decision as to the action to be taken rests with the Court.
Has the right hon. Gentleman any figures with which to acquaint the House of the number of these unfortunates who are in prison at the present time?
I think that the figures will be found in the preceding reply.
Will the right hon. Gentleman look into the matter of the amount of institutional treatment available for children over 14 years of age?
That is a very different question.
Are any steps taken to inquire into the previous medical history of these people, or do the authorities wait for some evidence to be given to them that the case is encephalitis lethargica before making inquiries?
I think that my answer implies that something in the nature of a medical history is brought into the Court.
Water Supplies
asked the Minister of Health what steps he proposes to take to deal with the serious shortage of water in many localities during the drought of last summer?
I have already issued a memorandum urging water authorities to examine their position, in view of the drought and possible difficulty in the future, and indicating the measures to be taken. In my opinion, the most practicable procedure is the formation of Advisory Regional Water Committees, who will systematiclly survey the needs of their districts and recommend the best and most economical means of meeting them, and I am constantly urging the formation of such committees.
Will the right hon. Gentleman be so good as to publish the results of the Regional Water Committee's findings from time to time, for the general information?
There is now before the Advisory Committee of the Department a report which I hope to make available as soon as it is through the Committee.
Will the right hon. Gentleman tell me what his reply has to do with the question on the Paper, which asks what he proposes to do with regard to the drought of last summer?
Refuse Dumps
asked the Minister of Health whether he has received a copy of a resolution passed by the Middlesex County Council at its meeting on 7th November with regard to the dumping of London refuse; and whether he is prepared to consider the introduction of legislation to carry into effect the proposals contained in that resolution?
I have received a copy of the resolution. I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the reply to questions by the hon. Members for the St. Albans (Lieut.-Colonel Fremantle) and Dartford Divisions (Mr. Mills) on the 7th instant.
Will the right hon. Gentleman take any steps to see that these unpleasant dumps are covered over at any rate at the end of each day; and has he power to do that in the interests of a large number of people who live in the vicinity?
I regret to say that I have no power to compel the local authorities to do that. As the hon. Member knows, there is now a Committee sitting which is dealing with this question in the whole of the London area.
When will the Committee report?
. Will the right hon. Gentleman give us any kind of undertaking that in the meantime no fresh dumps will be allowed to develop along the river side?
I have no power to prevent fresh dumps if they are in accordance with the local regulations.
Has the Minister of Health succeeded in obtaining a chairman of the Departmental Committee in succession to the late Sir John Gatti?
That point is referred to in another question.
Imported Diseased Meat
asked the Minister of Health whether he can state the number of carcases of imported meat during the year which were condemned as unfit for human consumption; and whether he considers the present regulations sufficient to protect the public against the importation of diseased meat?
I regret that the figures asked for in the first part of the question are not available. The answer to the second part is in the affirmative.
Pulmonary Tuberculosis
asked the Minister of Health if he will give the number of deaths recorded for pulmonary tuberculosis, with the number of these deaths not notified under regulations during life, for each county council and each county borough council in England and Wales for the last three years?
The numbers of deaths in each year from pulmonary tuberculosis for counties and county boroughs are published in the Registrar-General's Statistical Review, Part I, Table 20. As regards the second part of the question, I have no information relating to the year 1926, but I will send the hon. Member a summary of the relevant returns made to my Department in respect of the two subsequent years.
Is the Minister of Health prepared to see, that these statistics are published either in the report of the medical officer or that of the Department, because they provide a test of the efficiency of the work with regard to tuberculosis in each county and county borough?
I have already replied to a similar question. The difficulty is to keep the annual report within reasonable dimensions. It is desirable, of course, to publish the maximum information in a minimum space. If the hon. Member's wishes can be met without unduly lengthening the report, I shall be happy to meet his request.
Rheumatism (Children)
asked the Minister of Health what grants, if any, are paid by his Department to local authorities for the investigation or treatment of rheumatic diseases, especially among children?
Grants are available under the Maternity and Child Welfare Regulations for the experimental investigation and treatment of acute rheumatism in children under school age, but I am advised that this condition is rare amongst very young children. I understand that the Board of Education pay grants for similar purposes in the case of children of school age, and that the Medical Research Council make grants for researches into rheumatism.
Does the right hon. Gentleman not think that the best way to deal with delicate children is to establish nursery schools?
Have the efforts of these three Departments been co-ordinated in any way?
They are within the knowledge of the three Ministers concerned.
Cannot the three Ministers co-operate?
Milk Supplies
asked the Minister of Health whether, in view of the large number of deaths of infants from bovine tuberculosis, traceable to milk, recorded annually in medical reports, he is satisfied that the powers of supervision and control vested in local councils are duly exercised by them; and, if not, whether he will consider measures for their stricter application?
I am satisfied that local authorities generally are exercising their powers of supervision and control in an efficient manner, having regard to such difficulties as are caused by the mixing of milk and the delays necessarily involved in obtaining reports on bacteriological examinations. The matter will, however, continue to receive my careful attention.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the bacteriological examination of milk for tubercle is hopelessly inadequate in this country?
East Africa
asked the Prime Minister whether he intends to make a statement as to the policy of the Government with regard to East Africa; and if the House will have an opportunity of debating the Government proposals?
The answer to both parts of the question is in the affirmative, but I cannot promise that the proposals will be laid before the House before Christmas.
Major Nathan.
rose —
We cannot go back.
I wanted to ask a supplementary question on question No. 46.
Commissions and Committees
asked the Prime Minister how many committees and commissions of inquiry have been set up by the present Government, giving the subjects into which they are to inquire and the total estimated cost to the public; whether it is proposed to set up any further committees or commissions in the near future; and, if so, for what objects?
I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the answer which I gave on Friday last to the hon. Member for Blackpool (Sir W. de Frece). No estimate of cost is possible. As regards the last two parts of the question, I am not in a position to make a definite statement as to what further investigations the Government may deem it advisable to make. The Government will always seek the very best advice and guidance it can get on any of the great national problems which it has to face.
How much will it cost?
I say that no estimate of cost is possible.
Prosecution and Sentence, Dover
asked the Home Secretary on what grounds he reduced the sentence passed during August last on a young miner who was convicted at the Dover quarter sessions and sentenced to 14 days' imprisonment for stealing a shillingsworth of apples?
I advised the remission of the remainder of this sentence, because I thought it was a proper case for the exercise of clemency.
Is it the fact that in that district there has be en a perfect epidemic of petty larceny, and that the individual charged and convicted did not have time to steal more than a shillingsworth of apples?
I think that it is a fact that there were other thefts in the district by other persons; I also think that this youth ought not to be punished for those offences.
Factory Bill
asked the Home Secretary when he proposes to introduce or circulate the Factory Bill?
I hope to introduce this Bill shortly, but I am afraid I am not able at present to fix any date.
Juvenile Employment, Wolverhampton
asked the Home Secretary whether he has received a communication from the Wolverhampton Education Committee with reference to the excessive hours during which certain juveniles are employed; and what action he proposes to take in the matter?
I received in August last a copy of a resolution passed by the Wolverhampton Education Committee on this subject. I am well aware of the importance of this question and proposals for legislation have been under my consideration; but I cannot say at present when time can be found for a Bill—possibly after the Factories Bill has been disposed of.
Communist Organisations
asked the Home Secretary whether, in view of the ignorance which prevails regarding the real nature of certain political organisations, he will carry out a thorough investigation of Communist activities in this country and in the Empire, and publish the result of his inquiry?
I am not sure what particular organisations the hon. Member has in mind. As regards the Communist party, I see no reason for any special investigation such as he suggests. Its aims and activities may, I think, be sufficiently gathered from its publications.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, according to the last Report of the Trade Union Congress, many prominent members of the Labour movement had associated themselves with the Communist organisation? [ Interruption. ]
Police (Ex-Inspector Syme)
asked the Home Secretary if he can now make any statement as to the intentions of the Home Office in regard to the case of ex-Inspector Syme; and, if not, whether he can say when he anticipates being in a position to make a statement on the matter?
This is not by any means merely a Departmental matter, and if anything further can be said I will make a statement 'as soon as possible.
Can the right hon. Gentleman give any estimate as to when he will be in a position to make that statement?
My reply is that if it is possible to make a statement, it will be made as soon as possible.
Are we to lake it that the Home Secretary is going into the matter, and will make a statement?
I said in my answer that it is not merely a Departmental matter.
Education
Single-School Areas
asked the President of the Board of Education what is the present number of single-school areas in England and Wales?
I am sending my hon. and gallant Friend a copy of ah answer which my right hon. Friend gave to the hon. Member for Shoreditch (Mr. Thurtle) last Thursday, containing the information he desires.
School-Leaving Age
asked the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware of the impossibility in some areas of making the scheme for the raising of the school-leaving age effective by the date fixed by the Board; and whether he will empower the Board to permit the raising of the school-leaving age to be delayed for a period in any part of any local education authority's area, provided that the Board are satisfied that the delay is unavoidable?
No, Sir. My right hon. Friend is not prepared to make any exceptions to the date of raising the school-leaving age.
Will the hon. Member state how many communications he has received from local authorities alleging impossibility?
I am not aware that any representations have been made at all.
asked the President of the Board of Education whether, in working out the details of the arrangements necessitated by the raising of the school-leaving age, such as the extra outlay on school premises, teaching staff, etc., his Department has been able to form any approximate idea of their effect upon local rates; and, if so, what it is?
For reasons which my right hon. Friend has previously given, he would prefer to wait until he has received the programmes of the local education authorities before giving an estimate of the probable expenditure or of the proportion which will fall on local rates.
Local Authorities' Programmes
asked the President of the Board of Education if he will give a list of local authorities which have provided programmes sufficient to deal with the problem of re-organisation and the raising of the school-leaving age; what is the number of senior school places provided in these programmes; and what is the total number of children on the register of the areas concerned?
I would ask the hon. Member to refer to the statement which my right hon. Friend made in the House last week on this subject, and I would also like to remind him that the authorities have not been asked to submit their programmes until the end of this year. When these programmes have been received and examined my right hon. Friend will be in a better position to furnish him with precise information.
When that day does arrive, will the hon. Gentleman consider including with the information answers to the last part of the question?
I will keep that in mind.
Secondary Schools
asked the President of the Board of Education if he can say how many local education authorities for higher education require as a condition for admission to their secondary schools an undertaking on the part of the parent of the prospective pupil that the child shall remain at school until the end of the secondary school year in which the child attains the age of 16 years; and the approximate number of children in attendance at secondary schools in the areas of such local education authorities?
The majority of local education authorities require some form of school life undertaking as a condition of admission to their secondary schools, but the information at my disposal does not enable me to give the detailed particulars asked for.
New School, Doncaster (Mishap)
asked the President of the Board of Education whether he has called for a report from the Doncaster County Borough Council as to the cause of the collapse of a school which was in course of erection on the Intake site; and, if so, will he state the nature of the report?
My right hon. Friend was not previously aware that any mishap of this nature had occurred; but he is making full inquiries into the matter at once, and will let my hon. Friend know as soon as he has received a report.
Housing
Slum Clearances
asked the Minister of Health if he has any information as to the total number, approximately, of persons living under slum conditions in Great Britain at the present time; and, if so, what are the approximate figures?
Statistics on the point raised by my hon. and gallant Friend are not available, hut a good deal of information concerning houses found upon inspection not to be fit is contained in the annual Report of the Ministry of Health for 1928–29.
Will my right hon. Friend consider circularising the local authorities to get a return of approximately the number of persons, so that we may have the figures before us when this great slum clearance scheme is presented?
The difficulty about that is the old difficulty that no two local authorities accept the same standard. I hope that it will be left to each local authority to set its own standard and submit its own plans.
May I ask when we are going to have the proposals of the Government for dealing with this very urgent matter?
I think that question had better be put to the Prime Minister.
Floods (Thames Riverside)
asked the Minister of Health if his attention has been directed to the insanitary condition of some 14 houses on the riverside which suffered in the flooding of the Thames in 1929, when water stood several feet deep; is he aware that every abnormally high tide floods the gardens; and will be obtain the medical officer's report on these houses, with a view to the protection of these tenants?
In the absence of further particulars I regret that I am unable to answer this question. If my hon. Friend will supply more detailed information, I shall be happy to make inquiries.
Improvement Scheme, North Southwark
asked the Minister of Health if he is aware that the Corporation of the City of London owns a great deal of property in North Southwark which was purchased some years ago for the purpose of constructing the approaches to the contemplated St. Paul's bridge, and that such property is conveniently located and suitable for the construction of houses, and also for a much needed improvement of the locality by providing a riverside promenade and children's playground; and if he will consider the advisability of making representations to the City Corporation, the London County Council, and the Southwark Borough Council that some consultation shall take place between them with a view of the early development of the area?
I am aware of the fact stated in the first part of the question. I understand that the local authorities concerned are already in consultation about this matter. I am carefully watching the progress made, but I do not think that I could usefully intervene at the present time.
Was the representative of the Ministry of Health present at any of those consultations?
I am afraid that I cannot answer that question without notice.
Poor Law
Appointed Guardians
asked the Minister of Health what has been the remunerations, expenses and disbursements he has approved of of the recently appointed guardians for West Ham, Bedwellty and Chester-le-Street, respectively, since their appointment to the last convenient date?
In West Ham I have sanctioned an allowance of one guinea per day to each guardian when attending a duly convened meeting of the Board or of any recognised committee thereof, together with out of pocket expenses actually incurred in travelling on the business of the Board outside the area of the Union. In the case of the chairman, the allowance is one guinea per day in respect of each day on which he attends at the offices, relief stations or other establishments of the guardians on the business of the Board, together with similar out of pocket expenses. In Bedwellty, I have approved the payment of ÂŁ7 per week for each guardian inclusive of all expenses within the Union. In Chester-le-Street no scale has as yet been settled. I am awaiting a communication from the Guardians.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether he has made any estimate of what the cost will be to West Ham, for instance, in the ensuing 12 months?
It will be a very small proportion of the cost incurred under the old appointments.
Is it not a fact that these men are only partially employed, and that if one makes that comparison it is a very expensive business indeed on which the right hon. Gentleman has embarked?
May I ask whether this is going to be done everywhere?
Why not?
Has the right hon. Gentleman remembered the good old principle, "Remember the Guardians"?
May I ask if the allowance of a guinea a day to the chairman depends in any way on the time the chairman spends there?
No, the payment of one guinea per day is made on the assumption that there is serious work to be done by his attendance. The late Chairman received ÂŁ1,500 a year.
Disabled Ex-Service Men, Kettering
asked the Minister of Health if he has considered the representations made by the Kettering Board of Guardians drawing attention to the burdens imposed upon ratepayers by the payment of relief to ex-service men disabled in the late War and suggesting inquiry with a view to making all disabled cases a national charge; and what action he is prepared to take?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part, I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given to the hon. and gallant Member for Tavistock (Brig.-General Wright) on 4th November.
Test Work
asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that there are over 1,000 test workers in Norwich; that there is no useful test work on which they may be put, and that they have to walk nine miles a day in all weathers to perform useless work; and what steps he proposes to take in the matter?
I am informed that in the week ended 9th November the number of men engaged in test work of various kinds was 635, including 54 attending instructional classes. The work consists of clearing and levelling of land, roadmaking and preparation of land for cultivation, and these are not useless jobs. As regards the distance of the work, I am informed that the only test work which is outside the city is well within a mile of the boundary. The administration of the guardians in this matter has been investigated by the Department on several occasions during recent years and the guardians have as a result introduced various improvements, including the inauguration and extension of instructional work. I propose to keep the situation under review, and in particular I shall welcome any practicable extension of the educational work.
Does the Minister realise that the bulk of those men who have to march nine miles to work are badly fed and ill-clad; they have to walk in a drenching rain and do work which is absolutely futile; and will he further inquire to find out if he cannot take power to stop it?
I will certainly inquire, but, as I stated in my reply, I am told that they only work outside the city boundary and within one mile of it. If the hon. Member will give me any facts which contradict that, I shall be very glad to inquire into the matter.
They work about four miles from the place where they live.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the conditions in other cities are even worse than those described in this question; and, in view of the indignation shown by his party when in opposition, will he not do something now?
That does not arise.
asked the Minister of Health whether he will circularise boards of guardians suggesting the kind of schemes for test work which he would approve for the training and educating of men so that they may be fitter to take on a new job when one appears?
I do not think it necessary to issue a circular which would necessarily be limited in its application to particular areas. Since the Salford Board of Guardians inaugurated an educational scheme it has been the practice of my Department to draw the attention of other boards to the advantages of schemes of this nature. This particular scheme has received a good deal of publicity and various boards have visited Salford and other towns having similar schemes in order to study the arrangements made. A number of boards have instituted similar schemes and I should imagine that few, if any, boards of guardians, to whom such schemes would be useful, are unaware of their existence.
Will the Minister of Health refrain from insisting upon hard physical work being carried on where the boards of guardians do not desire to insist upon it?
I have to carry out my statutory duties, and I hope that I shall not exceed them.
If the Minister of Health cannot issue the circular asked for in the question, will his Department at any rate see that a circular is issued prohibiting stone-breaking and stone-shifting as test work?
I have already replied to that question.
I know that the right hon. Gentleman has replied, but, in view of the attitude taken up by the members of the Labour party when in opposition, will he not take steps to stop this degrading practice?
It is not now the practice of 600 boards of guardians, and only one is doing it.
Why cannot the right hon. Gentleman stop that one?
Relief, Liverpool
asked the Minister of Health how many people are in receipt of Poor Law relief in Liverpool at any particular week-end in November?
I regret that separate figures for Liverpool are not available as the Returns received in my Department relate to Poor Law union areas only. On Saturday, the 9th November, 1929, the total number of persons in receipt of Poor Law relief (including lunatics in asylums and persons in receipt of Domiciliary Medical Relief only, but excluding casuals) in the West Derby Union, which includes the Liverpool County Borough, was 69,205. From information previously obtained it would probably be safe to assume that 90 per cent. of the total belonged to Liverpool.
Old Age Pensioners
asked the Minister of Health whether his Department has issued instructions to any board of guardians which would justify their claim that they are precluded from supplementing the old age pension of 10s. per week to a single woman living alone and incapable of earning any money?
My Department has not issued any instructions suggesting that a board of guardians is precluded from supplementing an old age pension where need for additional relief is shown. On the contrary, a Circular dated 12th November, 1925, on the subject of the Widows', Orphans' and Old Age Contributory Pensions Act of that year, expressly drew attention to a misapprehension that relief could not be granted to a pensioner.
Is not the right hon. Gentleman now of opinion, in view of the answer he has given, that he should have endeavoured to accept some of our Amendments to the new Bill?
asked the Minister of Health whether his attention has been called to the case of Mrs. Potter, of Harwich, aged 73, who has no sons, daughters or sources of income save her old age pension of 10s. per week, whose rent, heating, and lighting amount to only 6s. per week, and who cannot secure any assistance from the local board of guardians; and whether he will instruct his inspectors to look into this case?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative, and to the second part in the affirmative. I would point out, however, that it rests with the guardians to decide whether relief is needed in any particular case, and, if so, the amount of such relief. I am expressly precluded by Statute from interfering in any individual case for the purpose of ordering relief.
In view of the fact that I have already sought the right hon. Gentleman's help in regard to this particular board of guardians, may I now ask him whether he will help to get them to bring more humanity into their administration?
I have already said that the inspectors are investigating this particular case.
Officer's Superannuation (Mrs. M. Ring)
asked the Minister of Health why he was unable to accede to the request of the Edmonton Guardians to sanction the addition of 10 years to the service of Mrs. Mary Ring under the provisions of Section 2 of the Poor Law Officers' Superannuation Act; and whether, in view of the circumstances of the case and of the resolution passed by the guardians, he will reconsider his decision?
Section 5 of the Poor Law Officers Superannuation Act, 1896, does not empower me to consent to any addition of years except in consideration of peculiar professional qualifications or of special circumstances. Mrs. Ring was employed by the guardians as a daily worker for 16 years. I have consented to the addition of five years to the actual period for superannuation purposes, but the circumstances of the case do not appear to me to justify a larger addition.
Local Authorities' Stock
asked the Minister of Health if he can make regulations that all corporation bonds payable to bearer shall bear a Government or corporation stamp certifying the genuineness of the scrip?
The issue of bearer bonds is a form of borrowing rarely used by local authorities. The hon. Member may, however, have in mind bearer scrip certificates issued in connection with local authorities' stock. I have under consideration the question whether any amendment of the Stock Regulations under the Public Health Acts (Amendment) Act, 1890, is desirable in order further to safeguard local authorities and the public and I will bear his suggestion in mind in that connection.
Assessment Committees (Members' Expenses)
asked the Minister of Health if he is aware of the large expense to which members of the assessment committees set up under the Rating and Valuation Act, 1925, are being subjected; and whether he will take steps to enable the assessment committees to repay out of their funds the reasonable out-of-pocket expenses of the members attending the meetings of these committees?
The Eating and Valuation Act, 1925, does not admit of the payment of the expenses of members of Assessment Committees when attending meetings of the committees and legislation would therefore be necessary in order to give effect to the hon. Member's suggestion. The question is a general one which needs to be considered not only in relation to assessment committees but also to other authorities and I am not at present in a position to give any undertaking as to legislation on this subject.
Local Government Officers (Superannuation)
asked the Minister of Health how many local authorities have adopted the Local Government and Other Officers' Superannuation Act, 1922; how many have adopted it for officers and workmen and the number of each included in designated posts; and how many officers and workmen over 65 years of age are still employed respectively by local authorities who have adopted the Local Government and Other Officers' Superannuation Act, 1922, and by local authorities who have not adopted that, Act?
On the 1st November, 1929, 683 local authorities had availed themselves of the provisions of the Local Government and Other Officers' Superannuation Act, 1922, and the number of posts designated as established posts by these authorities was approximately 127,500. No exact information is available as to the numbers of officers and workmen occupying such posts, but the Departmental Committee on Superannuation estimated that on the 1st November, 1927, the 102,000 employés then occupying established posts included 35,000 officers and 67,000 servants. I have no information as to the number of employés of local authorities whose age exceeds 65 years.
Has the right hon. Gentleman power to compel those local authorities who are refusing to put this into operation to do so?
Under the present law, I have no power to compel local authorities. That matter was raised by the Departmental Committee which reported two years ago, and is now under my consideration.
National Health Insurance
asked the Minister of Health whether he proposes to make any alteration or amendment to the National Health Insurance Act to enable approved societies to give financial assistance towards the cost of any form of treatment, benefit, or otherwise, that a member may require, with less than five years' membership?
An approved society which is found on valuation to have a disposable surplus may adopt a scheme for contributing towards the cost of various forms of remedial treatment required by its members, such as dental, ophthalmic, hospital or convalescent home treatment. Hitherto such assistance has been restricted to persons who have been members of the society for about five years, but a regulation has already been made under which the qualifying period of membership will from January next be reduced to 2½ years on the average.
asked the Minister of Health if he is aware that members of national health insurance approved societies are oft-times placed at considerable inconvenience by panel doctors declining to issue a second certificate before the expiration of seven days following the issue of the first certificate; and will he draw the attention of panel doctors to the Medical Benefit Consolidated Regulations, 1928, Schedule 1, Part IV, which provide that the doctor shall, if so desired by the insured person, give to him, if still incapable of work, a second certificate not later than the seventh day after the first certificate?
I have not received any representations to the effect stated in the first part of the question. Attention has frequently been drawn to the obligations of insurance doctors' under the provision to which my hon. Friend refers, by various means, including the issue in 1927 of a Memorandum, of which I am sending him a copy.
Voluntary Insurance Contributors
asked the Minister of Health the estimated net cost to the Exchequer if uninsured persons with total earnings of less than ÂŁ250 per annum became insured as voluntary contributors under the National Health Insurance and Contributory Pensions Acts?
I regret that it is not possible to give the information asked for by my hon. Friend.
Meat Consumption (Statistics)
asked the Minister of Health the number of animals, beasts, sheep and pigs, killed for human consumption in 1908, 1918 and 1928; and the number of carcases of each class imported for the same years?
— 1908. 1918. 1928. Beef and Veal. Thousands. Thousands. Thousands. Home Production ( a )—)— Number of Cattle Slaughtered— … Number. Number. Number. Cattle … 1,880 1,909 1,880 Calves … 649 640 1,063 Total … 2,529 2,549 2,943 … Tons. Tons. Tons. Estimated dressed carcase weight of meat … 591 541 576 Gross Imports ( b )) … 424 474 667 Mutton and Lamb. Home Production ( a )—)— … Number. Number. Number. Number of Sheep and Lambs slaughtered … 9,120 9,762 10,348 … Tons. Tons. Tons. Estimated dressed carcase weight of meat … 221 228 238 Gross Imports ( b )) … 225 106 287 Pigmeat. Home Production ( a )—)— … Number. Number. Number. Number of Swine slaughtered … 3,670 2,966 3,921 … Tons. Tons. Tons. Estimated dressed carcase weight of meat … 262 195 280 Gross Imports ( b )) … 388 607 529 ( a ) The figures of home production relate to Great Britain and are for the years ending May.) The figures of home production relate to Great Britain and are for the years ending May. ( b ) Imports into Great Britain and all Ireland in 1908 and 1918, and into Great Britain and Northern Ireland in 1928, as given in the official trade returns. They include the equivalent in dressed meat of the imports into the United Kingdom, of fat animals from abroad, but do not include in 1928 anything in respect of the imports of animals from the Irish Free State recorded in the trade returns for that year. These latter have been omitted in order to provide a more accurate comparison with other years.) Imports into Great Britain and all Ireland in 1908 and 1918, and into Great Britain and Northern Ireland in 1928, as given in the official trade returns. They include the equivalent in dressed meat of the imports into the United Kingdom, of fat animals from abroad, but do not include in 1928 anything in respect of the imports of animals from the Irish Free State recorded in the trade returns for that year. These latter have been omitted in order to provide a more accurate comparison with other years.
I have been asked to reply. As the reply is long and contains a number of figures, I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPOET.
Following is the reply:
The following statement shows the estimated number of cattle, sheep and pigs slaughtered for food in Great Britain in 1908, 1918 and 1928, together with the imports in those years of each class of meat into the United Kingdom. Figures of home production of meat relate to Great Britain, since particulars of Irish production for 1928 are not available, while the import figures, which are only given by weight and not by number of carcases in the official trade returns, relate to the United Kingdom. It must be noted that, owing to the change of status of the Irish Free State in 1923, the import figures for 1928 are not comparable with those for the two earlier years.
Insurance and Pensions Legislation
asked the Minister of Health whether the Government intend to offer an opportunity to all uninsured persons to be insured on equal terms for State pensions, as promised in item two of their pledge given to the National Conference on Widows', Orphans', and Old Age Pensions; and whether the Government intend to amend either the Contributory Pensions Act or the Old Age Pensions Acts so that the means test may be discontinued in the cases of applicants for and recipients of old age pensions under the Old Age Pensions Acts, 1908–1924?
These matters come within the scope of the inquiry now being conducted by the Committee engaged on a general survey of existing insurance and pensions legislation.
When is that Committee likely to report?
The right hon. Gentleman has asked that question before, and I have already informed him that I could not give him any answer.
Has the Committee met?
Answer!
Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind his pledges on this subject?
I always bear in mind my pledges.
Imported Irish Cattle (Transport)
asked the Minister of Health whether his attention has been called to the condition of certain meat, recently imported from Ireland, which shows that some of the animals had suffered in transit to the extent of having four or five ribs broken by being trampled on; and will he cause inquiries to be made and present a Report about the matter and take whatever steps are necessary to prevent a recurrence of such cruelty?
I have been asked to reply. The answer to the first part is in the affirmative. My right hon. Friend has already instituted inquiries into the circumstances in which the animals were injured, and will inform my hon. Friend of the result.
Scotland (Firearms Act)
( by Private Notice ) asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is aware that a systematic house-to-house search for rifles has been conducted by the police throughout the parish of Assynt in the County of Sutherland; why the patriotic and law-abiding people of this parish were subjected to this invasion of their homes; whether this action was taken with his approval; and, if not, whether strict orders will be issued to prevent such action being taken in future without cause being shown to the Lord Advocate or Secretary of State for Scotland?
I am informed that there has been no systematic house-to-house search by the police throughout the parish of Assynt. Following upon information that certain persons in Assynt were in possession of firearms without certificates under the Firearms Act, 1920, warrants authorising the search of 13 specified houses were recently granted. The police, in execution of the warrants, visited the 13 houses and seized 11 rifles, and I am informed that prosecutions are being instituted in eight cases. As regards the third part of the question, the execution by the police of their lawful duty does not require my right hon. Friend's approval. Neither my right hon. Friend nor the Lord Advocate has power to interfere with the enforcement of the Firearms Act in the manner suggested in the last part of the question.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there are a great many people in the Highlands who have rifles, many of them having served in the War; and is it right that the police should go searching through 15 houses— not 13, as the hon. Gentleman said— looking for these rifles which the people have, with which they do no harm at all, and of which they are proud?
The police are required to perform the duties entrusted to them specifically under the Firearms Act, 1920, which was passed by the Government of which the hon. Baronet's right hon. Friend was the head.
Business of the House
May I ask the Leader of the House what the business will be next week?
On Monday, 25th November: Unemployment Insurance Bill, Second Heading, adjourned Debate. It is hoped that the Second Reading will be concluded by 7.30 p.m., when the Committee stage of the Unemployment Insurance Money Resolution will be taken. It is proposed also to take the Second Reading of the Highlands and Islands (Medical Services) Additional Grant Bill. There are four small items of Supplementary Estimates which will also be put down on the Paper— none of them, I am informed, contentious—namely, Miscellaneous Legal Buildings; Public Buildings, Overseas; Grants to Rating Authorities in Scotland; and Dominion Services, Grants by Irish Grants Committee.
Tuesday: Expiring Laws Continuance Bill, Committee and further stages; Highlands and Islands (Medical Services) Additional Grant Bill, Committee; Unemployment Insurance Money Resolution, Report.
Thursday: Unemployment Insurance Bill, commencement of Committee stage; Highlands and Islands (Medical Services) Additional Grant Bill, further stages.
On any day, if time permits, other Orders may be taken.
I do not know whether the Leader of the House has himself looked—I know how busy a Leader of the House is—into the programme of business, but I would call his attention to this, that we certainly undertake, as far as we are concerned, and I believe all sections of the House will agree, that we will divide on the Unemployment Insurance Bill at half-past Seven, and as regards the Financial Resolution by Eleven o'clock. That is a matter, I understand, of agreement. We are all agreed on that. But if the right hon. Gentleman proposes to take the Second Reading after Eleven o'clock of the Highlands and Islands (Medical Services) Bill, I would remind him and the House that the Opposition—both parties—let the Financial Resolution go through without any discussion. They understood, of course, that on the Second Reading such discussion as might be desirable would be taken. The right hon. Gentleman says quite truly that Supplementary Estimates have been put down on the Paper. He spoke of them as non-contentious. After considerable experience of non-contentious business in this House, there is no business on which the House likes to talk more than on non-contentious business.
May I also, by way of reinforcing what has been said by the Leader of the Opposition, point out that it is not altogether a question of the Bill being controversial. I do not understand that it is, but the Highland Members would like to take the opportunity which it affords of calling attention to matters of vital importance to their constituents. With regard to the Supplementary Estimates, I do not quite know what they are, but, looking at the character of them, I can quite understand that there are two or three on which something might very usefully be said—I do not mean merely taking up time, but there are matters of very considerable importance. I trust the Leader of the House will not insist upon these being taken if any representation is made from any quarter of the House. I should also like to ask him when he hopes to introduce the Mines Bill.
Both right hon. Gentlemen are experienced hands at making this announcement, and they understand why this long programme is to be put down for Monday. The right hon. Gentleman opposite said that there was an understanding that an opportunity should be given for discussing the Highlands and Islands Medical Services, and, to reinforce that, I say that it was more than an understanding; it was a pledge, and we are not going to break it. I did not intend to take this Bill after eleven o'clock. The Supplementary Estimates, of course, will be subject to the usual procedure. My intention at the moment is not to suspend the Rule. If I find I may have to put down a suspension Resolution, it will not be for the purpose of doing anything more than conveniently finishing business which has been begun before eleven o'clock. One of the reasons why this somewhat large programme is down for Monday is to enable us to proceed with the Mines Bill as quickly as possible. I should think that by this day week I shall be able to give the right hon. Gentleman a definite date.
Can the right hon. Gentleman give some indication on what day he proposes to bring the signatures of the Optional Clause before the House?
It will not be before Christmas, according to present arrangements.
When does the right hon. Gentleman propose to bring the Egyptian Treaty before the House? The Foreign Secretary on Monday told us that he was anxious to bring it before the House at the earliest possible moment, but that I must address my question to the Leader of the House.
Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will give me notice. At the present stage of the programme up to Christmas, I do not see that there is very much chance of bringing it before the House before Christmas.
I will repeat the question on Monday. I would beg the right hon. Gentleman not to put off these very important discussions longer than possible.
Ordered,
"That other Government Business do have precedence this day of the Business of Supply."—[ The Prime Minister. ]
Ex-Enemy Property
Mr. Snowden's Statement
The following questions stood upon the Order Paper in the name of Mr. MACPHERSON:
95 and 96. To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) whether the question of the disposal of any surplus that may remain from the proceeds of the liquidation of German private property under the provisions of the Treaty of Versailles after the satisfaction therefrom of British private claims against Germany or German nationals under that Treaty was considered by the Committee of Experts on Reparations that met in Paris in the spring of this year under the chairmanship of Mr. Owen D. Young or by any sub-committee of that Committee; and, if so, what was the result;
(2) whether the question of the disposal of any surplus that may remain from the proceeds of the liquidation of German private property under the provisions of the Treaty of Versailles after the satisfaction therefrom of British private claims against Germany or German nationals under that Treaty was considered by the Hague Conference held in August, 1929, or by any sub-committee of that Conference; and, if so, what was the result.
I understand the Chancellor of the Exchequer is going to make an important statement now upon expropriated enemy property. I should like to ask whether there will be an opportunity of Debate.
Certainly, there will not be an opportunity now for Debate. There may be one on some other occasion, but there certainly will not be now.
In view of the uncertainty as to the exact position of expropriated enemy property, should not a suitable occasion be given to the House of Commons as it has been given in another place to discuss the question?
Perhaps the House had better await my right hon. Friend's statement.
On a point of Order. May I ask you, Sir, for the benefit of the House if you will indicate under what Rule this statement is being made? The question has not been reached on the Paper, and no Private Notice question has been asked.
Opportunity is often taken after 3.45 for statements to be made by Ministers on matters of public interest.
Is your Killing that any Member who considers his question is one of public interest can raise a point of Order about a particular question and ask that it may be asked?
Any hon. Member may always raise a point of Order, and I am always ready to listen to him.
As one of the oldest Members of the House, who has considerable recollection, I should like to ask if this is not a new departure, and if the only occasion on which such a question has been answered is when the Minister has risen and has said that the answer is somewhat long, and you have given him permission to answer it at the end of questions?
Would any other hon. Member be allowed to take advantage of the Rules of the House in the same way as the Noble Lord? We have been ordered out of the House for less than that.
The Noble Lord is entirely within his rights and is in no way abusing the Rules with regard to the question that he has raised, the matter of the question being on the Paper, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer wishing to make a statement now is merely a coincidence. It is a coincidence that the question on which the Chancellor of the Exchequer wished to make a statement happened to be on the Paper and has not been reached. There is no new departure, and no question of precedent arises.
I understand the procedure is that the right hon. Gentleman, considering that this matter is of very urgent importance, has asked your permission to make a statement.
That is the position.
In view of the misleading propaganda which has been carried on and the misunderstanding of the facts which appears to exist, I should like, with your permission, Mr. Speaker, and the leave of the House, to make a general statement of the position of His Majesty's Government in the matter.
I have consulted the British experts on the Young Committee, and I am informed that the disposal of the surplus proceeds of liquidation of German properties was fully considered by the Experts' Committee in Paris, and that it was the intention of the British experts, as it was the intention of the experts of all the other creditor Governments, that the proceeds of liquidation of these properties should be retained, in accordance with the Treaty, by the creditor Powers concerned, and that no part of such proceeds should be repaid to Germany; and it was only on this understanding that they agreed to recommend the reduction of the German obligations as proposed in the Plan.
The text of the Report, indeed, makes the position quite clear. Section 8 provides that the annuities proposed in the Report should cover the obligations of Germany, as defined in the Dawes Plan; while Section 9 provides that the accounts of the Reparation Commission relating to the original capital debt should be closed.
The Report proceeds: might be applied to meet private claims of their nationals on account of debts, property losses and compensation awards due by Germany and that, thereafter, any surplus might be retained by the creditor Governments on account of their reparation claims. After the German Schedule of payments was fixed in 1921, the Reparation Commission decided, and duly informed the German Government, that any surplus proceeds so retained would be credited to Germany on account of the capital reparation debt and not on account of the current annuities. The liquidation of these properties was taken into account by the Second Experts' Committee appointed in 1924, and the German annuities fixed both in the Dawes Plan and in the Young Plan were based on the capacity of Germany to pay, on the assumption that these properties were definitely lost to Germany.
On two occasions the German Government raised claims before the Interpretation Tribunal set up under the Dawes Plan for credits in respect of the proceeds of liquidation of German property against the German annuities as defined by Section XI of Part I of the Dawes Plan, but on each occasion the Tribunal has rejected these claims, and under the terms of Section 8 of the Young Plan these decisions will apply also to the annuities payable under the Young Plan. It appears to be quite clear that while the Young Committee recommended that the Creditor Governments should discontinue their right to liquidate in the future, they did not contemplate that Germany should be repaid any part of the proceeds of past liquidations.
The only action therefore required at the Hague Conference was the drafting of the exact formula required for putting the above recommendations into effect, which has been entrusted to the Committee set up by that Conference "to apply the recommendations of the Chapter IX of the Report of the Experts relating to the liquidation of the past." The report of that Committee has not yet been completed, but I am informed that the representatives of all the creditor Governments are agreed that the German Government must waive all claims on these balances, as a condition of the coming into force of the Young Plan. In this connection I should point out that it is quite untrue to say that the British Government are pusuing a policy less generous than that of the other creditor Governments in Europe in this matter. None of them, so far as I am aware, have returned to the German Government any part of the proceeds of past liquidations, though I understand that France may return a small sum—estimated at £250,000—at some future date. Apart from this, all these countries have done or undertaken to do is to suspend liquidations and to release properties not yet liquid, liquidated or finally disposed of. His Majesty's Government have offered to enter into a similar arrangement, as regards the cessation of future liquidations, and they suspended liquidations as from the 31st August last.
As regards the past, the proceeds of liquidation of German properties in this country have, in accordance with the arrangements in the Treaty referred to above, been used in the first instance for meeting the private claims of British nationals. This accounts for the great bulk of the money. The surplus, which is estimated at about ÂŁ14 millions, is paid to the Exchequer as it is realised. This surplus, being a general balance, cannot of course be earmarked or identified as the proceeds of any particular property, and there is no better case for returning it to the German Government than for returning the merchant ships or other Treaty deliveries on reparation account made by Germany in 1920.
His Majesty's Government consider that the retention of this surplus forms an integral part of the Experts' Plan, and they will in no circumstances agree to any such modification of the Plan, at the expense of this country, as would be involved by the return of any part of this sum to the German Government.
In saying this, I must not be understood as overlooking the hardships sustained by the German nationals concerned who have not yet received the compensation provided for in the Treaty, but this is a matter within the competence of the German Legislature.
His Majesty's Government have indeed contributed very substantially to alleviate the hardships of individuals, with whom I have always had much sympathy, by the discretionary releases, on humanitarian grounds, granted by the Board of Trade especially on the recommendation of the Blanesburgh Committee. The total of properties already released under this procedure exceeds £5,000,000., In addition, His Majesty's Government have offered, in accordance with the recommendation of the Young Committee, to waive claims to properties not yet liquidated (including dollar securities which are the subject of litigation) estimated to be worth a further £5,000,000. Thus His Majesty's Government will, when the Young Plan is definitely adopted, have released altogether German properties or claims valued at over £10,000,000—a much larger amount than any sums which I believe have been released or are likely to be released by any other of the European creditor Governments. It seems to me that, having regard to the burdens which the British taxpayer has been called upon to bear in consequence of the War, the renunciation of these claims represents the fullest measure of generosity which can be justified, and in my opinion it gives effect, as fully as can be done, to the desire which I have expressed when in a position of less responsibility to see these provisions of the Treaty ultimately abandoned.
The House will agree that the statement just made is an important one and that it requires fuller consideration by the House. In view of the importance of the statement and of the issues involved, I ask the Prime Minister whether we could not have an opportunity as early as possible of discussing it in the interest of the country as a whole?
I think that before I reply to that question the House ought to have an opportunity of quietly considering the statement, and if the question now addressed to me is put to me by either of the leaders of the parties I shall certainly consider how it is possible for me to grant them the opportunity that they request.
After the long statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, which has to be considered carefully, I want one point to be made quite clear. Is it not a fact that under the Treaty of Versailles there was a second charge as well as a first charge on this property? What I want to know is most important. Do the claims referred to include claims under the second charge as well as under the first charge under the Treaty of Versailles?
I must have notice of that question.
The statement which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has made covers one part only of the very complicated but important transactions at The Hague. It is of vital importance to this country and to the whole economic stability of Europe. I would ask the Prime Minister whether, in considering the proposal that has been made to him by the right hon. Gentleman opposite, he would consider also the possibility of widening any discussion so as to cover the whole of The Hague proceedings?
I would like to know whether the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer means that the granting of compassionate allowances will now be brought to an end?
On a point of Order. Earlier you said, Mr. Speaker, that a statement was to be made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, with the leave of the House. That is a well-understood procedure. But a whole series of questions based on that statement appear to me to tend almost to a Debate, and I submit that a Debate ought not to proceed except in the ordinary fashion.
I thought I made it quite clear that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would make a statement, but that there would be no Debate, and I was merely allowing one or two questions to elucidate the statement.
I do not wish to prolong this discussion by questioning the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but a very important point is raised with regard to the compassionate allowances. They are a matter of vital concern to a large number of people who have been suffering very severely, and, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, if there is any stopping of these—
The right hon. Gentleman must not turn this into a Debate.
Then may I ask whether, in the statement that we have just heard, there is implied a cessation of these compassionate allowances?
Any compassionate allowances which have already been granted and are not yet paid will, of course, be paid. If the right hon. Gentleman means that we are to raise anew and make further compassionate allowances, the answer is "No"
TYNESIDE TRAMWAYS AND TRAM-ROADS COMPANY BILL [Lords]
Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Selection (Standing Committees),
Standing Committee A
Mr. William Nicholson reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee A (added in respect of the Coast Protection Bill): Sir Robert Aske; and had appointed in substitution: Sir Donald Maclean.
Mr. William Nicholson further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following 10 Members to Standing Committee A (in respect of the Third Parties (Rights against Insurers) Bill): Mr. Atkinson, the Attorney-General, Dr. Burgin, Sir Henry Cautley, Mr. Johnston, Mr. Wardlaw-Milne, Mr. Short, the Solicitor-General, Mr. B. A. Taylor and Sir Kingsley Wood.
Standing Committee B
Mr. William Nicholson further reported from the Committee: That they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee B: Sir Assheton Pownall; and had appointed in substitution: Viscount Lymington.
Mr. William Nicholson further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following 10 Members to Standing Committee B (in respect of the Tolls Bill): Captain Bourne, Major Carver, Sir Leolin Forestier-Walker, Mr. Harbord, Mr. Arthur Henderson, jun., Mr. Kelly, Captain Peter Macdonald, Mr. March, Mr. Herbert Morrison, and Mr. Strauss.
Scottish Standing Committee
Mr. William Nicholson further reported from the Committee; That the following Members representing Scottish Constituencies are appointed to serve on the Standing Committee for the consideration of all Public Bills relating exclusively to Scotland and committed to a Standing Committee:— Mr. Adamson, Brigadier-General Sir William Alexander, Duchess of Atholl, Mr. Barr, Mr. Benn, Sir George Berry, Mr. Boothby, Mr. Brooke, Mr. Ernest Brown, Mr. James Brown, Mr. Buchan, Mr. Buchanan, Sir Samuel Chapman, Mr. Clarke, Sir Godfrey Collins, Major Colville, Mr. Cowan, Mr. Dickson, Earl of Dalkeith, Major Dudgeon, Major Elliot, Sir Patrick Ford, Dr. Forgan, Sir John Gilmour, Mr. Duncan Graham, Mr. William Graham, Sir Robert Hamilton, Mr. Hardie, Mr. Thomas Henderson, Sir Harry Hope, Sir Robert Horne, Dr. Hunter, Lieutenant-General Sir Aylmer Hunter-Weston, Major-General Sir Robert Hutchison, Mr. Johnston, Mr. Kennedy, Mr. Kirkwood, Miss Jenny Lee, Sir Murdoch Macdonald, Mr. McKinlay, Mr. Maclean, Mr. MacNeill-Weir, Mr. Macpherson, Mr. Macquisten, Mr. MacRobert, Mr. Marcus, Mr. Mathers, Mr. Maxton, Mr. Duncan Millar, Lieutenant-Colonel Moore, Mr. Murnin, Mr. Ramsay, Mr. Scott, Mr. Scrymgeour, Dr. Shiels, Mr. Shinwell, Major Sir Archibald Sinclair, Mr. Sinkinson, Mr. Skelton, Mr. Robert Smith, Mr. Stephen, Mr. James Stewart, Mr. Stuart, Mr. Sullivan, Sir Frederick Thomson, Mr. Train, Mr. M'Lean Watson, Mr. James Welsh, Mr. James C. Welsh, Mr. West-wood, Mr. Wheatley, Major McKenzie Wood, and Mr. Wright.
Reports to lie upon the Table.
Selection (Local Legislation Committee)
Mr. William Nicholson reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Member from the Local Legislation Committee: Mr. Hurd.
Report to lie upon the Table.
Orders of the Day
Unemployment Insurance (No. 2) Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
Before coming to the question of this Bill, I wish to make one or two rather general observations by way of clearing the ground. This is a Bill to remedy the outstanding defects of the present system, and to provide money to enable the Unemployment Insurance Scheme to be carried on. Further, the Bill introduces what may be termed an "experimental year." The transitional provisions come to an end under the present Bill during the year beginning in April, 1931. I want to make quite clear, and repeat, what the Minister of Health said in moving the Widows' Pensions Bill. He pointed out that the Government had already set up a Committee which is to examine and make a general survey of the various National Insurance and Pensions Schemes. This survey involves an analysis of the complex problems to which schemes developed on independent lines inevitably give rise; an examination of the gaps and the inadequacies in the present schemes, and full consideration of the relations between Unemployment Insurance and other forms of social provision. I want to repeat that declaration, because it affects my Department very materially and quite as much as the Ministry of Health. Until this examination is completed and the larger policy of the Government on these big questions decided, it would be useless to attempt to make the present arrangements permanent.
This is the third Bill on Unemployment Insurance that has been dealt with by Parliament this year, and the twentieth Bill on Unemployment Insurance since 1920. Clearly, there is urgent need for the consolidation of these many enactments, and the work of consolidation is already in hand. But this work cannot be completed until the important changes to be effected by the present Bill have been put on the Statute Book. With regard to the form of the Bill, as far as it has been possible to do so, I have tried to avoid what is called legislation by reference. It will be seen, for example, that Clause 6 is a complete restatement of the legal provisions for the determination of claims and that the whole of the existing Section and its later Amendments are repealed. I have done my best to meet the convenience of all parties by the circulation of an explanatory Memorandum showing precisely what differences the new Bill will make. I do not want to weary the House by going over every Clause of the Bill. Many of the Clauses are matters of detail and can be much more properly discussed on the Committee stage of the Bill.
Before I examine the main proposals in the Bill, I want to say a word about the inclusion of agriculture. There has been quite definitely a demand that this shall be considered as a matter of urgency, and my own personal desire is to include all agricultural workers and other "good lives" in the scheme of Unemployment Insurance. But there are very great difficulties to be faced. There are the comparatively low rates of wages, the fact that the population is scattered over wide areas, the fact that we have really very little reliable information with regard to the degree of unemployment, and there is very definite consideration to be given to, and very great weight to be placed upon, the disadvantages of any question of a special scheme. These difficulties, which are difficulties of administration rather than of principle, will not prevent me from trying to bring agriculture within the field of Unemployment Insurance, but they do prevent me from including agriculture in this Bill. The Minister of Agriculture and I are working in close co-operation, trying to see if we can evolve a sound scheme which can be considered and discussed by the interests concerned.
The most important change in the Bill is the abolition by Clause 5 of the fourth statutory condition requiring a claimant to be Act of 1921. In 1924, the condition "genuinely seeking work but unable to obtain suitable employment," was made one of the ordinary conditions for the receipt of unemployment benefit by the Labour Government's Act of that year. Looking simply at the words in their natural meaning, it is doubtful whether anyone would dispute that they were a proper requirement to be satisfied by any person seeking to obtain unemployment benefit. But there is no doubt that it was never intended that the condition should have the effect which it has proved to have. The condition has been turned into the application of a psychological test which it is administratively impossible to apply with any degree of equity, particularly in connection with the depressed areas.
I notice that in the Amendment which is to be moved from the benches opposite, it is stated that my new condition— cases disallowed under the genuinely seeking work condition, but I am satisfied that administrative action is not enough. It is sometimes argued that under the existing Regulations I might, by administrative action only, have done away with the hardships caused by the existing fourth statutory condition. I am advised that this is not so. Clearly, no Regulation can give me the power to go behind the obvious intention of the Statute and to usurp the powers of the insurance officer, the Court of Referees and the umpire, who are independent statutory authorities. The Committee under Sir Harold Morris was set up in July last. Its terms of reference were: tory," as the party opposite appear to think.
Sub-section (1) of Clause 4 is quite clear and is not a matter for controversy, at any rate, as far as we are concerned. Obviously, if a man does not apply for, or refuses to accept, a specific suitable situation known to him, he ought to be disqualified. This Sub-section, in effect, embodies the formula recommended by Councillor Mrs. Adams and my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham West (Mr. Hayday):
I am convinced that the substitution of this new condition for the old condition will remove the hardships, the injustices', and the temptation inherent in the old procedure. Under the present condition men have every temptation to lie, and it places a positive premium on dishonesty. Under the present condition, it is inevitable that weary, unemployed men should tramp uselessly from mine to mine and from factory gate to factory gate knowing that there was no chance whatever of them obtaining work, but compelled to pursue this hopeless, futile round in order to convince the Court that they were, in fact, genuinely seeking work. Here is the position expressed in words more eloquent and commanding than any words of mine:
Subject to the very reasonable obligation which I have mentioned, the onus of proof now lies on the administrative authorities. No longer will a man have to prove that he has the genuinely-seeking-work frame of mind. This impossible psychological test is abolished. The full effect of Sub-section (2) cannot be appre- ciated unless it is read in conjunction with Clause 7. Under the present procedure, a man is assumed to be guilty until he can prove his innocence, and his benefit is stopped as soon as it is suspected by the administrative authorities that he is not in a genuinely-seeking-work frame of mind. Under Clause 7, benefit will no longer be cut off without warning in such cases, but will continue to be paid until he has an opportunity of replying to the Exchange case. If he is sensible enough to be a member of his trade union he will have an additional safeguard.
Clause 4 (2) is so important that I am very desirous to have no doubt as to its precise meaning. I frankly confess that this has not been an easy Clause to draft, and for this reason I am fully prepared to consider drafting Amendments in Committee. I want to use the collective wisdom of the House to make this Subsection completely watertight. If during the experimental year this Sub-section proves to be still open to criticism, opportunity to amend it will occur at the end of the year. Only experience can show whether this Sub-section, taken in conjunction with the work-finding activities of the Exchanges, and the training, reconditioning and transfer facilities which we are providing, and which we hope to develop, will help us to avoid the twin evils of injustice to the claimant and imposition on the Unemployment Fund.
Clause 4 (3) deals with the conditions on which the insured contributor may be expected to extend his search for work outside his usual occupation. It follows the Morris Committee's recommendation. The claimant now will have written notice from the insurance officer. This notice will not be issued until such a time has elapsed since the claimant became unemployed as is considered to be reasonable in the circumstances of the case. For clearness, I have repeated the existing safeguards along with the new provisions in Sub-section (5). It is a very serious matter to tell a man, particularly a skilled or middle-aged man, that he must pull up the roots of his industrial experience and plant them elsewhere. There are three questions that immediately come to mind. For what else is he suitable? What other occupations have room for him? What other town or district wants him? There are other complications in the case of a family man, (1) by the shortage of housing, (2) in distressed areas by physical unfitness, underfeeding, lack of exercise, damage, physical, mental and spiritual, loss of hope and resulting apathy, which is one of the most difficult things to tackle in connection with this or any other problem.
There is a third difficulty in the numbers involved in the closing down of plant with a view to utilisation of modern plant, during or prior to reorganisation. In the days before a National Insurance Act was thought of, when there were a very large number of small employers, if one place closed down here and there, it was not of so much consequence to the community, but to-day when you get whole townships depending upon one works, if that establishment closes down a very different situation arises, and it leaves the displaced workmen helpless almost beyond words to describe. There are many employers who have refused to take local unemployed men because, in their opinion, these men have so deteriorated that they are not any longer able to hold the job. Think what it means to bring men into a depressed area because the local men are considered not to be strong enough, and at a time when we are trying to do everything we can to bring out of these areas the surplus labour power. It is actually happening at this moment that employers are scouring the country to get the fittest men and to bring them into these depressed areas.
I want to make a three-fold appeal. In the first place, I want to appeal to employers to co-operate with my Department in reconditioning men for work so that, between us, we may bring back the self-respect and skill and physical fitness of the local man in the distressed areas who has been allowed to rust away. If it is possible for the employing group to give us some notice of their requirements, and they will give us some indication that in their opinion local labour is not sufficiently competent, and they will give us a chance to try to make them competent, instead of bringing other people into the area and increasing the distress, we should appreciate it very much. Then I appeal for the help of the mothers of young men in the depressed areas not to keep their sons at home in districts where there can be little or no prospects for them. Many lads suffer from home-sickness, and mothers, quite naturally, encourage them to come home. In the long run it spells disaster if the willingness to adventure is checked. If mothers would encourage the lads to stick it when they get a job away from home, I, for my part, promise that whatever can be done through the machinery of the Exchanges will be done to ensure that these lads are helped and guided.
Then I ask for the goodwill of the public and the Press towards the unemployed. Suspicion, slander and sneers can only hinder. It is an appalling attitude which assumes that an unemployed man must not be happy or have a good time. Often it is carried to such an extent that men are afraid to volunteer to help anybody or to take an active part in the social life of the district, lest they should be regarded as forfeiting their benefit. The more interests a man finds to occupy him when unemployed, within the limits of not taking work, without pay, which is normally paid for, the healthier he will be in body and mind, and the more alert to take any chance which comes his way to secure employment.
As regards the machinery for the determination of claims, the Bill follows, in Clause 6, the recommendations of the main report of the Morris Committee so far as legislative action is concerned. I propose to carry out by administrative action other recommendations in respect of which legislative action is not required. The Committee were satisfied that most cases were best decided by a local tribunal. While the local insurance officer at present allows a claim if he thinks it is in all respects satisfactory, he refers all doubtful questions as to the right to benefit to the chief insurance officer's department at Kew, where they are decided by an officer who has had no opportunity of seeing the claimants. This the committee regarded as undesirable, and I entirely agree. It is far better that the decision should be given by a body which has seen the claimant and has knowledge of local conditions. I have, therefore, adopted the recommendation that when a question arises in any case other than one of a stoppage of work due to a trade dispute, the question shall be referred by the insurance officer to a court of referees, who shall give a decision, and not, as at the present time, merely make a recommendation.
This will mean that, except in cases arising under the trade dispute disqualification, no claimant for benefit will have his claim disallowed unless and until it has been considered by a court of referees, and a decision adverse to the claimant has been given by the court. Trade dispute cases are excepted from this change, because it is desirable in the case of trade disputes covering a considerable area that consistent decisions should be given, thereby ensuring that uniformity which is essential, but this cannot be secured unless the first decision is given by some central authority. As before, there will be rights of appeal to the umpire. The recommendation of the Morris Committee is again being followed in the provision of Clause 6 (6), that in addition to those rights of appeal already existing, there should be an appeal to the umpire, when the decision reached by the court of referees is not unanimous. It is essential to have in this connection the close co-operation of employers' and workers' organisations in providing representatives on the courts of referees and the local employment committees. I am convinced that the policy of the devolution of responsibility for individual cases is bound to help.
Now I come to Clause 12 (3). One of the conditions for the receipt of benefit during the transitional period for persons who have not paid 30 contributions during the last two years is that the claimant must show that he has had a reasonable period of insurable employment in the last two years. Many cases have occurred where persons who have had to satisfy these conditions have been found to have been disallowed benefit at some time during the period of the two years in question, on the ground that they were not genuinely seeking work, or on certain other grounds. It has been held by the umpire under decision No. 5061, that a person cannot be regarded as having had a reasonable period of insurable employment if he has been disallowed on one of these grounds during the last two years. Doubtless, legal rules of con- struction led to this conclusion, but it can hardly be supposed that anyone ever contemplated that the effect of the transitional condition would be so severe in these cases. Shortly, the present position is that a disqualification on the ground that a claimant is not genuinely seeking work has the effect of depriving him of benefit over a period of two years unless he acquires the full 30 contributions. It has proved extremely difficult, practically impossible, to devise a remedy which would exactly fit the case, short of abolishing the transitional condition itself. This has accordingly been done by Clause 12 (3).
Before dealing with the finance of the Bill, may I return to Clause1? The important change effected in Clause 1 is in relation to the lowering of the minimum age for insurance. The Government have announced their intention of raising the school-leaving age to 15. That step will be taken not later than 1931. The Bill proposes that when that step has been taken the minimum age for insurance shall be reduced from the present age of 16 to the school-leaving age. This proposal is made with the support of the majority of the National Advisory Council on Juvenile Employment for England and Wales and with the support of the corresponding Advisory Council for Scotland without dissent. In making their recommendations the councils expressed anxiety that so far as possible the change should be effected in a form which would not tend to stereotype the age of 15 as the school-leaving age. This has been done, and the Clause has been most carefully drafted, in consultation with the education departments concerned, in such a way that if the school-leaving age should hereafter be raised, as many of us hope, to an age higher than 15, then the minimum age for insurance will be automatically adjusted accordingly without the necessity for further legislation. The two National Advisory Councils also support the adoption of a recommendation originally made by the Malcolm and Salvesen Committees that unemployment insurance contributions should, in certain cases, be credited to boys and girls attending schools or instructional centres. Effect has been given to this recommendation in Clause 11.
I notice that the Amendment which is to be moved from the benches opposite refers to the
I now come to finance. When we took office in 1929 the annual revenue of the Fund was ÂŁ7,000,000 less than when we left office in 1924, and in 1924 the Fund could carry an annual live register of 1,200,000. By June, 1929, the revenue of the Fund was so reduced that it could carry a live register of 1,000,000 only without incurring a deficit. In October, 1924, the debt stood at under ÂŁ5,000,000. By June, 1929, the debt had risen to nearly ÂŁ37,000,000. The only assistance which the late Government gave the Fund was to limit borrowing powers to ÂŁ40,000,000. If contributions and benefits had remained as the Labour Government left them in 1924, the present debt would not be ÂŁ37,000,000 but ÂŁ20,000,000. My first act on coming into office was to arrest this rake's pro- gress, and throughout I have had the greatest help from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. With his help we have introduced an intelligible principle by which the revenue could be increased. The Treasury contribution is now equal to one-third of the revenue, and it is dated back from the beginning of the financial year, involving an addition to the Fund of ÂŁ3,500,000 a year direct Treasury money.
The debt to-day is ÂŁ37,000,000, and the peak of the curve of seasonal unemployment has still to be reached. Rationalisation, which is quite properly applied to industry, and let us take the consequences of it, will mean in the first instance that the numbers on the live register will go up. I only hope that all those concerned in the reconditioning of industry will put their best efforts in the job and get through this period at the earliest possible moment. The reconditioning of plant may mean temporary stoppages of large bodies of men. The changes in procedure under this Bill will, I anticipate, increase the number of claims by the number unjustly deprived of benefit under the old procedure. The last Government agreed to continue the transitional period not for insurance reasons but for political reasons. They evaded the issue by an easy and baseless optimism, assuming that everything would come right if and when trade revived. For this running away from difficulties the nation has to pay a heavy price. I cannot help thinking that when under pressure from these benches the last Government decided to continue the transitional period they must have hoped, even if they did not anticipate, that they would not be in office when the period again came to an end. The present abnormal condition of unemployment is due to national policy and international causes, and not to the shortcomings of the workers and employers contributing to the Insurance Fund. It is for this reason that the taxpayer is now called upon to foot the bill.
With the concurrence of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the transitional period is continued by the Bill for another year, but on a different basis and with a definite objective. The Exchequer will meet the cost of claims made under the transitional conditions, and this will amount to ÂŁ8,500,000 in a full year. The definite objective in view in continuing the transi- tional period is, as I have explained in my opening remarks, to give the Government time and opportunity to examine how best the able-bodied unemployed, who are now outside the insurance scheme, may be dealt with. I see that the party opposite will refuse to give a Second Reading to this Bill because it
The right hon. Lady has stated, with regard to the transitional period, that the cost would be ÂŁ8,500,000. Is not that for two years, not one year?
It is an overlapping period of two years. It proceeds in the way of a curve, small at the beginning, but rising to its full number and then curving off.
What number of unemployed does it assume?
I am coming to that. That group of reforms I estimate will cost ÂŁ3,250,000 annually. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has given me an additional ÂŁ12,500,000 a year. That is ÂŁ8,500,000 for the cost of claims under the transitional provisions, and ÂŁ3,500,000 by the Act which was passed before we rose for the summer, and ÂŁ500,000 by way of a growth in Exchequer contributions payable under previous Acts. I found that with careful budgeting and taking some risks that I had just over ÂŁ2,000,000 a year to play with. It was obvious at once that I could not do what I wanted to do. With the greatest regret I had to abandon hope for the present of reducing the waiting period to three days. Obviously I could not substantially increase the general rates of benefit. I decided to increase the rate of benefit for young persons under 21, because the low rates recommended in the Blanesburgh Report were conditional on training being given as a secondary benefit. This secondary benefit was only given to a limited extent by the last Government, and can, in fact, only be given by degrees. I am pressing on with that and I want to reach the point when every young person under 21 who is unemployed shall have some form of training during his period of unemployment. But it is impossible in three months' time to reach that stage, and therefore I have to make certain adjustments.
I decided to increase the rates of benefit for certain adult dependants by 2s. at a cost of ÂŁ1,650,000 a year. The class which will mainly benefit by this proposal is the wife of the unemployed man. All parties in the House will, I think, agree with me that there is no lot harder or more difficult than hers, and that it is she who should be the first to benefit by any proposal I am able to make. I understand that hon. Members opposite think I am extravagant, that I am squandering the taxpayers' money. If that is so I want the right hon. Member who will follow me to tell the House precisely where he thinks I am extravagant. ÂŁ8,500,000 a year for the cost of claims under the transitional conditions? What would the party opposite do? Nobody should know better than they that the Fund is bankrupt.
There are only two alternatives to my proposal. The first is to deprive 120,000 unemployed of benefit and throw them, or most of them, on the Poor Law. Would the party opposite do that, and if so, would it really be an economy? The second alternative is to increase the rates of contribution and thus place an extra burden of ÂŁ8,500,000 a year on industry itself. That would be a strange policy for the party responsible for de-rating. There is one other course which the party opposite might follow. They might borrow, despite the fact that this would involve asking the House to extend the statutory limit which they themselves set. This is the course that they have always followed, and I suppose they would continue to follow it to the bitter end. Admittedly, this would benefit the taxpayer, who already receives just under ÂŁ2,000,000 a year in interest from this bankrupt Fund. But would any reasonable man suggest that the right solution of this problem is to add ÂŁ8,500,000 to the Fund's debt, and ÂŁ425,000 a year to the interest which it is compelled to pay? Then there is my ÂŁ1,650,000 for the wife of the unemployed man, and, indirectly, for his family. Do they grudge that? It looks as if the sum of my iniquity amounts to less than ÂŁ2,000,000 a year. I will not try to agree with them on that. I am not ashamed of having done too much. I only regret that, called upon to administer a bankrupt estate, I have only been able to do so little.
To sum up, what does this Bill do? It removes, as I hope, the injustices and hardships of the present fourth statutory condition; it prevents a man's benefit from being stopped in cases where it is not reasonable to stop it until the disqualification is proved; it introduces the system for determining claims recommended by the Morris Committee; it removes from the Fund the cost of claims under the transitional provision; it lowers the age of entry into insurance to the school-leaving age in 1931; it increases the rates of benefit payable to certain classes and particularly the wife of the unemployed man. It is an interim Measure, designed to take effect during an experimental year. As regards finance, I have tried to play the part of the careful housekeeper, but, like most housekeepers, I have not had money enough to do all that I wanted to do. I differ fundamentally from the party opposite on many things but unemployment insurance is not a matter of party politics, and I hope that in the many hours we shall spend on this Bill all parties in the House will remember that its object is to preserve the self-respect of the worker who, through no fault of his own, is out of employment. If the Bill goes some way to achieving that object I shall be satisfied.
I beg to move to leave out from the word "That," to the end of the Question, and to add instead thereof the words:
5.0 p.m.
This Measure is, I think, even larger than the right hon. Lady would have us believe. It is said to be a transitional Bill, but it is difficult to believe that, with the many mortgages on the Government's time, this Bill has any right to be treated as anything but what it is, a major Bill, upon which the lives and fortunes of millions of our fellow-citizens will depend for years to come. Therefore it is necessary to review to some extent the conditions antecedent to this Bill before proceeding—I hope as shortly as possible—to an examination of the provisions of the Bill, and of the reasons which have led myself and those who are sitting with me to put down the reasoned Amendment which I have to move.
In the first place let me point out the extent to which we have all agreed. It is interesting, and almost sinister, to observe the agreement which has come over the House with regard to this devastating problem. In previous sessions we were not agreed, but in this session we are apparently agreed, as to the gravity of the industrial position of the country, and we have surveys of all kinds which show us first of all that great blocks of industrial production in this country have apparently foundered; and the policy of transfer, which was treated with great indignation by hon. Members opposite when introduced, is now part of the accepted method of dealing with the unemployment situation in every section of the House. There is another point: great blocks of employment which were previously well afloat have now apparently almost sunk, or at any rate are waterlogged and awash. Take the coal industry, the textile industry, and the iron and steel industry; it is apparently accepted by every section of the House that it is impossible in the near future to expect any expansion which will absorb any large number of those who are presently out of work in those great industries; and this is reinforced by the terrible and appalling nature of the figures upon which the Government Actuary is apparently working in the Memorandum on the financial provisions of this Bill.
Is it realised by the House that the whole of the estimates for this Bill are based on an unemployment figure of 1,200,000 wage earners out of work this year, out of work next year, out of work the year after? The Government is bringing forward a Bill which is based, as appears from page 5 of the Report by the Government Actuary, on an average live register of 1,200,000; and the Government Actuary says that not merely for this year, but for the year 1930–31— and indeed it goes further because it includes 1931–32, and the assumption upon which he is working is 1,200,000 wage earners of this country constantly out of work. That is the situation which the party opposite, and the Government Actuary, are bringing forward as the situation with which we in this House have to deal—a terrible criticism of the unemployment schemes—[ Interruption. ] I say it is a terrible criticism of the unemployment schemes of the right hon. Gentlemen the Lord Privy Seal and the hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster.
Now let us look at the question whether we are justified in assuming this to be so. I call the attention of the House to a document which is not merely a national but an international document, the report of the League of Nations Economic Consultative Committee, whose session was held in Geneva from May 6th to 11th of this year, and which reported at a time when most of us were perhaps more concerned with the advent of an immediate electoral battle than with the consideration of abstract statistics and data as to the state of industry, not merely in this country but in Europe, and indeed in the whole world. That report points out that the consumption of coal was stationary over the period from 1913 to 1928; it points out that cotton spinning and weaving "in many countries"— not in this country, but in many countries—"was conducted at little or no profit"; it points out that:
Upon that may I ask whether the hon. and gallant Gentleman is quoting only people who are insured; and also is he including unskilled workers, whom we do not get here?
I am quoting the Report of the Economic Consultative Committee of the League of Nations, where all parties were represented, where the economists of all countries were present, and the figures which are given are figures which are on comparable bases, one with another. We must take it, therefore, that we are dealing with a most intractable situation, although it appears that certain countries have been able to deal with it. I frankly confess that we can find no general guiding line to help us out of the difficulties in which we are. Why should a country like France be so singularly prosperous? Why is it that there is no unemployment there? That is perhaps a subject which would repay investigation by the research side of the Ministry of Labour. At any rate three great industrial countries, under three very different systems both of tariffs and of organisation of industry —Germany, Great Britain and Russia—all found last year that more workpeople were out of work instead of fewer.
We then have to deal with a situation which the efforts of the right hon. Lady are not likely materially to alter in the immediate future; and when she claims that this Bill is to be passed through the House without very close examination because these matters are being reviewed by a Committee, and are being subjected to a comprehensive examination, which is going deeply and thoroughly into them, by the Minister of Health, the Minister of Agriculture, and all the Ministers, I would ask her to consider the extremely intractable nature of the problem as revealed by these passages from that international and all-party report which I have quoted to the House. Sixteen or seventeen days of parliamentary time were taken up on the last Unemployment Insurance Bill, the Bill founded on the Blanesburgh Report. Does the right hon. Lady believe that the Government Whips lightly envisage mortgages such as that upon the time of the House? Let her do what she wishes to do now, because the chance for examining the problem again, particularly in the malleable mood of the Chancellor of the Exchequer which she has been alone in discovering, is a chance which is perhaps not likely to recur.
I propose to try to establish four main propositions, and upon those four main propositions is set down our reasoned Amendment; for we were anxious to give the right hon. Lady as much time as possible to deal with the line of criticism which we should bring against the Measure. The Government has not given us, on the country generally, a great deal of time in which to deal with the Measure itself. The Measure has been discussed in its minutest detail— though not with universal satisfaction, I understand—with the Members of the party opposite, privately, and behind closed doors; it has been considered and revised over and over again. In less than a week from the printing of the Bill we are asked to take the Second Reading of it into consideration, and in far less than a week from the submission of the financial statement of the Government Actuary—
If I may be allowed to interrupt, may I say that I at least, as a member of this party, had no knowledge of the contents of the Bill until I got my Paper in the Vote Office? My only knowledge of what the Bill might contain was obtained from a newspaper report of a letter which the right hon. Lady wrote to a constituent at Wallsend.
I understand, at any rate, from what has appeared in the Press, that, although the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) did not know what was in the Bill, he had a shrewd suspicion as to what was not in the Bill. Negative knowledge in a case such as that is just as useful as positive knowledge. That knowledge was not available to either of the Opposition parties, and still less was it available to the great organisations in the country upon which both sides of the House must depend for the reasoned examination and criticism which we wish to give the Bill. The Bill, as I have said, has four great points. The right hon. Lady began with the provisions regarding "genuinely seeking work." I would rather take the order of the Bill itself. I have not the same intimate knowledge of it as the right hon. Lady has, and I have to work through it as it appears on the Paper. The first proposals in the Bill are most important proposals regarding the lowering of the age of entry into insurance; and there, in spite of the fact that we have stated our objection by putting down our Amendment on the Order Paper, the right hon. Lady paid no attention whatever to those points, and gave no reasons whatever dealing with the points which were raised, except the somewhat unworthy suggestion that our motives were insincere. Both sides of this House will get no further in Debate unless we assume that there is a certain sincerity about the arguments advanced on either side. [ Interruption. ]
I have carefully refrained from embarking upon a discussion of past pledges by the party opposite, or anything of the sort, because I am not willing to rake up old scandals; but if it comes to a question of sincerity, our party has never had 30 Members signing a declaration that the Government was insincere. Sincerity must be be assumed by both parties to this Debate, or else there will be no reality in the Debate at all. When the right hon. Lady said that it would be silly not to bring in the children, I asked myself why. She said that the Committee had reported, with a dissentient minority, in favour of what they called bridging the gap. Bridging the gap of what? Not the gap of unemployment, because it is agreed by all parties that these children are singularly good lives, that they are singularly unliable to spells of unemployment, and not merely that these children are good lives now, but that they are going to be very much better lives; that there is going to be a great fall in the number of children unemployed; and in fact that the risk against which they are asked to insure is not merely a very rare risk, but in the immediate future will be almost a non-existent risk.
What is the justification which the right hon. Lady puts forward. She says: "Surely when these children are asked to help towards a great national scheme, it will be a pity if all parties do not come in." Is that the reasoned proposal of the Labour party with regard to the financial condition of their Insurance Fund? Has it really to be buttressed up by contributions—representing four times the necessary cost—exacted from the small earnings of children of 16? Surely the right hon. Lady must find some better justification for this proposal before she submits it to the House of Commons. The Government Actuary himself points out that this fund is going to make a handsome profit out of these children. He says that the fund will benefit to the extent of £500,000 out of the wages of children of 16 from the year commencing 1st April, 1931. He says: posal it is that. [ Laughter. ] Yes, I repeat, that distrust and misgiving are felt in the country about this whole proposal with regard to bringing children straight out of the schools into the unemployment insurance machine and it does not alter the proposal that in subsequnt years this is given back to the children—that child can be taken round and shown the queue of unemployed standing at the Employment Exchange and can be told "This is taken from you so that it will be useful to you when you are one of those."
He might see his father in that queue.
It is not an idea with which any of us should wish to associate the child at the very beginning, when he is just entering industry. The psychological effect of this proposal is sinister and the psychological effect of the proposal is, as I say, deeply distrusted by the country. As we have been so often told on every platform in the country, if you talk war you will get war; so, if you talk unemployment you will get unemployment. The proposals in regard to children simply amount to this—that from the earliest moment at which they earn money they are to be introduced to a machinery primarily set up to guard against unemployment and the whole psychology of the child entering upon industry is to be that of a person who is entering upon a scheme under which he will sooner or later—and rather sooner than later—be the recipient of out-of-work benefit, instead of being in a steady job and earning money. That is not a proposal I am sure which will commend itself to the country as a whole and I have every hope that it will not commend itself to the House of Commons. If it is desired to deal with the special case of the juvenile, plenty of analogous machinery exists in other Statutes for doing so. It is quite possible to deal with hard points such as whether an employer should or should not pay contributions for juveniles entering industry. There is much machinery on the Statute Book for dealing with this and similar situations. It is not by any means necessary to bring the child into full unemployment insurance and to exact contributions from the child and thereby to induce in the child and in the relations of the child, the feeling that the child is paying into that Fund and sooner or later will get something out of it.
The Bill alters the scale of unemployment benefit. "Unemployment benefit," said the right hon. Lady," What is the attitude of the Opposition on that?" There is no difficulty in telling her. The House of Commons realising the difficulty of dealing with matters such as scales of benefit has, necessarily, had to refer the responsibility for those things to committees—if possible, non-party, or at any rate impartial committees—and to abide by their decisions. The right hon. Lady knows that she herself signed the Report of the Blanesburgh Committee. She knows that she is now departing from the scales laid down by the Blanesburgh Committee; she knows that she makes no justification of that in the House save to say that those scales for young persons envisaged training and when training is not being given she increases the scales. Is her proposal, then, that if training is given, she is going to cut down the scales?
Since the question has been asked I may say that I want all the money I can get to help to make the training more efficient. I shall be very glad for those children who are going into training to have this additional money.
That does not seem to be an answer. The right hon. Lady said she was specifically altering these scales in certain respects because training was not being given. I asked if the training were given, would she propose to cut down the scales?
The answer is "No!"
Then it is clear that the right hon. Lady is completely adrift from the Report which she herself signed —adrift without any support and depending entirely upon what she can obtain from the Exchequer, under pressure, and what she can defend upon platforms throughout the country. We remember very well the pamphlets, the leaflets, the propaganda of all sorts used against us at the General Election in regard to the scales of unemployment benefit. Are we now to conclude that these scales laid down by the right hon. Lady are satis- factory scales? Are we to say that ten shillings was not enough for a girl but that twelve shillings is enough—[ Interruption ]. There was safety before when you were dealing with the report of an impartial committee. Now it is on the mere ipse dixit of the right hon. Lady that these scales are to be accepted and you are bound to say that this amount is chosen because it seems to the right hon. Lady to be sufficient and there is no answer to that statement. Indeed, the hon. Members opposite who are dissentients from the proposal in the Bill, and who have put down an Amendment, realise that point very clearly. They accept fully the position that the scales here are laid down on the arbitrary ipse dixit of the Minister and have no reference to the scales laid down by the Blanesburgh Committee or any other Committee and they seek, therefore, to expand and enlarge those scales. But the right hon. Lady and hon. Members opposite will find themselves in a great difficulty before the country if they are challenged as they will be by those who see the Minister in the House of Commons, defending these scales without reference to any inquiry, and, therefore, on the ground that these are scales considered by the Minister and the Government and the party opposite to be sufficient.
Most hon. Members opposite have never gone to the country as Members of a Government party. Those who have done so know the terrors of that position. All the scales brought forward are subject to the same criticism, and the only way in which the House of Commons can escape from its dilemma is to have the matter inquired into by some outside authority and act on the assumption that the outside authority may be trusted and adhere as closely as possible to the scales laid down by that authority. Otherwise, there seems to be no escape from the position that the scales are to be purely arbitrary scales laid down by the Minister of the day and discussed not in any relation to what the people can afford, but merely in relation to their effect on the political good fortune or ill fortune of the party which is making the proposal.
The right hon. Lady said with some bitterness that we had brought in the proposal of a prolongation for a year with a view not to honour or honesty, but with a view to mere political advantage; that she is prolonging it for the year but that that has nothing to do with political advantage at all. I think she will find it difficult to convince the country on that point. Undoubtedly these proposals are subject to the gravest peril. The House of Commons knows instinctively that these proposals with regard to benefit relief are things which bear the utmost menace for discussion in the House of Commons and the House of Commons has sought in the past to escape from that position. The House of Commons will need to go on seeking that escape until it finds it, because, unless the House can come to a decision and stick to a decision, then there is no hope whatever for any reasoned and continuous policy being laid down and, as we all know, that is the only way in which to deal with these grave and terrible questions.
A point upon which the right hon. Lady laid the greatest stress was that in relation to the provision about "not genuinely seeking work" and the alteration of that Section. Quite naturally I cannot go into that point with the same enthusiasm and fervour as the Minister because I have not had the same opportunities of dealing with it, but it certainly seems to us that the tests proposed are of a vague and unsatisfactory character and that opinion is shared by a great many people on the right hon. Lady's side of the House. She says with the utmost assurance that this proposal shifts the onus from the applicant to the Employment Exchange but some of her own colleagues say with equal emphasis that it leaves the onus where it is now. Surely it is of vital importance not merely to the House but to the unhappy applicants for benefit to know where they stand, and if the situation is so unsatisfactory that 30 Members of her own party, after having had a careful explanation not merely from her but from the leader of the party, do not understand what the provision means, we can scarcely be blamed for saying that these tests are vague and unsatisfactory.
The Morris Committee criticise adversely the suggestion that the test should be the state of the applicant's mind, and they substitute for it what seems to me to be an infinitely morn onerous burden of proof. They say, "the reasonableness and diligence of the claimant's effort." I think I should find it easier to prove the state of my mind to somebody in this House than to prove my diligence, because you can prove the state of your mind by argument, but you can only prove diligence by that same heart-breaking process of tramping the streets to which the right hon. Lady referred. Diligence is the new test that is to be brought in. The whole House will agree that the state of mind may be easy or difficult to ascertain, but at any rate it need not throw the same strain on the physique and on the morale of the applicant as the test of diligence, which the Morris Committee lays down as its ideal test. The Morris Committee says as to the availability of suitable work: sidered. Certainly the hundreds of thousands of cases which are inevitably brought up whenever any big change takes place will be enormously difficult to consider and to decide, and not less difficult to consider and decide because of the lack of uniformity which the Minister's proposals are inevitably introducing into the unemployment decisions of the country.
There is only one more point, but it is a point of really vital importance. The point is as to those who, as our Amendment says, have dropped out of insurance altogether and are being carried altogether by an Exchequer grant. The Minister and the House must realise what we are doing here. We are admitting that a great block of workpeople have passed out of the insurance scheme, and this is the first step towards setting up a national Poor Law. It is not we, it is the Minister, who is taking this step, and it is the House which is asked to assent to it. The Minister's words were that by chicanery we have continued to carry these people on the Fund, and that she has taken them out of the Fund. She has thereby taken them out of insurance. You cannot both eat your cake and have it. You cannot both say that people are contributing and that they are not contributing. The right hon. Lady has grafted on to a contributory scheme of insurance a non-contributory scheme of insurance, a permanent non-contributory scheme of insurance, which is a point of fundamental importance. It was important in the case of the widows' pensions, where a non-contributory group has been added to a contributory group, but it is a non-contributory group which is diminishing every day and which is defended on the ground that it will diminish and finally pass away. But this is a group which will not diminish and pass away, but which will continue and increase, and it will demand a complete
You cannot have a contributory and a non-contributory scheme running inside the four corners of the same Act, because other people who have not contributed are bound to say, "Where do we come in in this matter?" There are 3,000,000 other wage-earners who have not contributed to an Insurance Act, but who are just as much eligible for a 100 per cent. Exchequer grant as any of the claimants whom the Minister is maintaining by reason of this provision. The whole principle of the trusteeship of the Fund, on which so much argument has been based, goes by the board for those applicants. The reorganisation which we all realised would become necessary as a result of the long continued period of application is on us now, and the gravamen of our charge against the Government is that they are bringing in this enormous change without consideration, without explanation to the House, and without facing the consequences which it inevitably entails.
That is where I say the right hon. Lady is extravagant. She sought to pin us on the horns of a dilemma and asked to what block of expenditure we objected, and where we really joined battle with her on the point of extravagance. We join issue with her on the point of extravagance on this simple fact, that she is making, by her own statement, a 100 per cent. Exchequer grant of ÂŁ8,000,000 a year, for what? For nothing. This is a grant which is in no way limited or conditioned by the conditions of insurance as the whole of the Exchequer contributions to the Insurance Fund are conditioned. The grant of ÂŁ8,000,000 which the Minister is making, she is making without considering what she is going to do with it. She is going to produce nothing with it, not even a reorganisation of the social system, and she is going to bring out nothing except that a certain set of people who were once insured are to be carried on the Fund, while other people who have not been insured, and who have equally a claim to be carried on the Fund, are to be left out in the cold altogether.
On all those points, we say that we have every reason to move the Amendment which we have set down on the Paper, and we say to the right hon. Lady and to the Ministers her colleagues, "Take this Bill back." There are one or two temporay proposals in the Bill which are of advantage, and there are other proposals, important and far-reaching proposals, which, by her own confession, have not received that attention which they should receive before they are commended to the House of Commons. The proposals which she brings forward with regard to the lowering of the age of entry into insurance and the other proposal to carry a great block of insured persons outside the Insurance Fund by an Exchequer grant without making any attempt to reorganise the system in consequence, are proposals which are novel in the insurance system of this country.
We say of this Bill, "Take it back. We do not like it. Hon. Members opposite do not like it. The country does not like it. If you pass this Bill as it stands, you will go a long way to break the heart of the country."
There is a good deal of matter in the very able speech delivered by the hon. and gallant Member for Kelvingrove (Major Elliot), who has just sat down, which will provide material for very searching scrutiny and examination in Committee. With a good deal of it I am very much in sympathy, but I fail, after hearing the most part of it, and having had reported to me the part which I did not hear, to find in it any argument for withholding this Bill from that searching Committee examination. If the hon. and gallant Member's Amendment is carried, this Bill is thrown out, and the Committee will not examine those very remarkable criticisms to which he has subjected the Bill. In respect of a good deal of this Bill, I find myself very critical, and I earnestly trust that, after the Second Reading, when the Bill goes into Committee, the Prime Minister will redeem—and I have no reason to believe he will not—his appeal to the House of Commons to treat itself as a Council of State, and that the Government will not merely welcome any criticism, but that they will not regard even an elimination of some of their proposals or an alteration in their proposals as a defeat, fatal to the Bill, because it is a very important Bill. There is a good deal in it which, with due respect to the right hon. Lady who has introduced the Bill in a very clear statement, will require most careful reconsideration. There is much of it which will need very much redrafting, and there are some parts of it which I should like to see eliminated altogether.
Which?
I am making an appeal to the Government to treat the Measure as one which the House of Commons can consider in Committee quite freely. For instance, with regard to seeking work, I am not satisfied. I am no more satisfied with the words which the Minister has used than is the hon. and gallant Member who has just sat down, and I hope we will reconsider those words and that Amendments that are submitted will be given fair and favourable consideration by the Government. It would be a mistake for me at this stage to indicate the direction of our Amendments. I am simply now making the appeal. I say, quite frankly, that I do not like the increase in the allowances for boys of 17, 18 and 19, and I should like to know a little more about what is proposed to be done about the boys of 15. With regard to the final criticisms of the hon. and gallant Member who has just sat down, I do not quite agree with him in regard to the £8,000,000 which the Government propose to contribute towards what used to be known, I understand, as uncovenanted benefit. I think the Government of which I was the head was responsible for that, because we found, very largely owing to demobilisation and soldiers coming home, with no work available for them, that there was a very considerable number of workers who could not acquire the necessary qualification for insurance. There were others as well, and it was found that there were about 200,000 or 300,000—I am not quite sure of the figures— bona fide workmen seeking work who had never acquired the qualification that would entitle them to benefit under the Insurance Act of 1920, and who would therefore fall back upon the Poor Law.
We thought that was grossly unfair, and that it would also cast a burden on the local rates that ought to have been on the Exchequer. The result has been that you have accumulated this debt of ÂŁ36,000,000, because the insurance fund will not cover it. I understand that if you had gone on, that debt would have probably increased; it would have gone on and on, and it is a sound proposition on the part of the Government to face that fact boldly. I think that it was a mistake in 1927 to alter the system which up to that moment had been work- ing on the whole well, by which you recognised the fact that some people were out of insurance and could not possibly come in through no fault of their own. The Government are recognising that fact, and I do not think it is a bad thing to recognise a fact even in the House of Commons. It is not really any additional burden to the State; but the Chancellor of the Exchequer does not like the method by which we do not recognise the fundamental fact in regard to insurance that there will be people who cannot come into the insurance and are not in insurance, and unless there is a provision of this kind, will have to fall back on the Poor Law.
This Bill ought to get a Second Reading, and ought to be subjected to a thorough, businesslike scrutiny in Committee. I hope that it will be regarded by the Government as a Measure which they have put upon the Table of the House for examination, for suggestion, for amendment, and, I have no doubt in the end, for improvement; and it will be all the more easy for the right hon. Lady to work her Department if she gets a better Bill than that which she has introduced. I realise all her difficulties, and I am going to refer to one or two. As a matter of fact, when I saw the Bill first, and saw this huge sum of money, I was alarmed, but when I began to examine it and to see that over ÂŁ8,000,000 of it was money which would have been incurred anyway, I did not think that it was quite as formidable, and I thought that the Government had got out of it rather cheaply. That is one of the reasons why I think that we should give the Bill a Second Reading. I recognise the very great difficulties which the Government were in. They put up a very stout and successful fight against the pledges which put them in power. I do not believe that the Chancellor of the Exchequer ever gave those pledges.
What about your pledges?
We are not the Government. The Chancellor of the Exchequer is in a position that a good many men will be in during the Christmas holidays, when the bills to which he has been committed by his family without his consent are coming in and to meet which there is very little in the bank. That is the position he is in, and I am very glad that the Government are beginning to realise it, and are going to face it straight away.
Search their pockets!
Hon. Members will have their say later on, and they must let me put my case first. The Prime Minister had to meet his creditors upstairs two days ago, and he had the usual answer that times were bad, and that really there was a small group of shareholders who prevented him from getting control, and that ultimately he hoped to squeeze them out, but that if he were given time, he would pay. I think that he asked for five years. He said that he would pay by instalments, and as far as I can see, the first instalment comes to something like 6d. in the ÂŁ. Pledges at election are intended to be carried out. I observe that there are a few hon. Gentlemen who do not take that view of their pledges. They remind me of a description given by Walter Bagehot of the French revolutionaries whom he met in Paris, and whom he described as "overprincipled ruffians." I should expect that on the chilly heights of Back Benches where they dwell principles will not decompose as rapidly as they do in the more genial and warmer climate of the Treasury Bench. Naturally, the hon. Gentlemen sitting there are not very satisfied with this as a sort of contribution towards the promises which they, among others, were encouraged to make. But still, the Romans never made the mistake of thinking that they could buy off the Picts and Scots with a spoonful of cold porridge. Their admirable characteristics ultimately drove my ancestors out of these fertile plains into the barren hills of Wales, and I am very glad to see that the same tenacity and the same capacity of making the most of their bargain still remains.
My principal misgiving about this Bill is not so much the ÂŁ8,500,000, which is really what you would have incurred, and what hon. Gentlemen on this side would have incurred if they had been in office, and which is added to the Bill; and not the 2s. to the wives of the unemployed. If you put each individual proposition like that, as the Government puts it to the House of Commons, it is very difficult to say "No." But the net result is that we are undoubtedly piling up a tremendous bill which this country ultimately cannot bear. I want to put that quite seriously. I can understand the hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway. They know that the country cannot stand it, and their purpose is to break down the system. From their point of view, as a tactical move, it is perfectly right to propose these additions year by year, because if they succeed, the system will inevitably break down. They are not out for these individual things; they are fighting a big battle. What the House of Commons has to consider, however, is: Is it prepared to face the catastrophe of the breakdown of this system with the knowledge that, if you put the other system in, it will have the same liabilities, and that whether it be good or bad, it cannot succeed with burdens of this kind for, at any rate, a generation?
That is what we have to face. I do not think it fair to come to the House of Commons and say, "So many millions for this class. Do they deserve it? Yes. Do they need it? Of course they do." And you are put in the position, from the electioneering point of view, of saying: "Here is so-and-so who voted against that proposal." But it is worse than that. I know Members of the House of Commons pretty well, and I do not believe that they are cowards fundamentally in any party. There is the sort of feeling that it is mean to vote against something where there is a real need, and where you are in a good position yourself. All Governments, therefore, have a great responsibility whenever they come down to each successive proposition and consider whether they can justify it on its merits, instead of considering whether, when you pile on all the things that are needed, the country can stand it under present conditions. I would like to put that quite seriously, and the reason I do so in connection with unemployment is this. What we ought to consider with unemployment is not increasing the burden, but diminishing it by seeing that work is provided. It would be better for the country and better for the men and women concerned, and they would prefer it.
6.0 p.m.
See what we are doing this year. I have some figures given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in a White Paper. We have added already since the General Election a burden of £19,000,000 on next year's Budget. I do not know what the burden of rating will be when it comes into full operation, but it is bound to be considerable. This is not the end, for there are other commitments which we have been promised. We are already increasing these burdens seriously. In recent years, the growth has been beyond comparison with that in any other land. We are the heaviest taxed country in the world. Let us see exactly what the position is. We have to face the competition of at least four countries—Germany, France, Belgium—to a considerable extent—and the United States. Germany France, and Belgium have practically wiped out the whole of their War liabilities and their pre-War liabilities—four-fifths, so far as France is concerned, Germany the whole, Belgium six-sevenths, and Italy about three-quarters. With those countries we have to compete. We have to compete with the United States of America, which is reducing its annual taxation by almost more than the figure by which we are increasing ours—the United States of America, to whom we are paying, I am not at all sure that it is not three times as much as all the other countries of Europe are paying in respect of their debts. We are increasing the burden year by year and almost month by month.
Considering each proposal on its merits, we are bound to say "Yes"; but we are not considering the whole thing to see what is the effect on the country as a whole. Let us just see. I need hardly say that I have every sympathy with the unemployed. As Chancellor of the Exchequer, I made the first provision for unemployment insurance ever made in this or in any other country. In 1910, when I was Prime Minister, I carried an Act, with Dr. Macnamara, who was then the predecessor of the right hon. Lady, which put it on something like a very generous basis, and in 1921 we provided for those who were out of insurance. Therefore, I do not think I need say that I have complete sympathy with poor people who are out of work through no fault of their own and have families dependent upon them. But my view is this: with the Government, first things must come first, and here we are beginning at the wrong end. We ought to be putting the whole of our strength into seeing that these young men of 17, 18 and 19, and even those beyond that age, have something to do. That is really my criticism of this Measure, as it was my criticism of right hon. Gentlemen in the Conservative Government. When they came in they found the same problem, and they began with widows' pensions, and said, "Let us give money to the widows and all will be well." They had five years of unemployment. It seems to me that this Government are going on exactly the same lines, just adding little boons and benefits and bounties here and there instead of facing the problem manfully, fearlessly, in a spirit of boldness and enterprise, and saying, "Is there work to be done in this country which ought to be done in order to increase its efficiency? If there is, turn these men on to do it and not to live on the bounty of the State." [ Interruption. ] I cannot be bothered now. You must allow me to make my speech. I have not finished yet.
All these things that we have been discussing are what I call prosperity proposals. First of all we have got to restore prosperity. We are spending money on the anticipation either that we have got prosperity or that it is bound to come. People who spend money in anticipation of the prosperity which is going to come to them generally end in one of two institutions, and the more honourable of the two is the bankruptcy court. The first thing to do is to restore prosperity, is for the Government to apply their minds to this task with such assistance as they can command. No Government can do it alone. I do not care who they are; they have got to command the best minds they can get anywhere in the land. This is one of the biggest problems with which we have been faced since the War, and in many respects it is more difficult than that one, because during the War we had a nation prepared to do anything and to confer any powers upon the Government. They say prosperity will come all right. [An HON. MEMBER: "Who says that?"] Well, they are acting upon that assumption. I will put it like that. If you pile on burdens of this kind when you have already something like £800,000,000 a year to raise, you must-be assuming prosperity, or your must be daft. [An HON. MEMBER: "Who talked of raiding hen roosts?"] There is nothing that affects me more than the confidence which a Socialist Ministry shows in the capitalist system—its resilience, its powers of recuperation, the way it can meet any burdens put upon it! It is not a rotten system that can stand that. And their faith in it is like unto that of a little child.
I may be asked, "What would you do?" and I am going to answer that in the words of one who is a right hon. Gentleman now and who will command confidence on that side of the House and will command respect on every side of the House. I mean the First Commissioner of Works. He was there a minute ago, but I see he has left. Here is the whole of my faith, expressed in the picturesque words of the First Commissioner of Works. I heard this speech in the House, and I think I got up afterwards and said it was one of the most courageous speeches I had heard on the subject. When I read it again to-day I was more convinced than ever not merely of its courage but of its vision. I see the right hon. Gentleman has come back. This is what he said on the 9th March, 1925. Let him listen to these words of wisdom: I am entirely in agreement. It expresses my views so much better than I could express them myself.
Hear, hear!
I am very glad to hear the right hon. Gentleman. But just see what that means. He said that in 1925, when all he could do was to appeal, as I do to-day. He is now one of the three Ministers who are dealing with this problem. The appeal which he made to the right hon. Gentleman then I now make to him. Instead of bringing in Bills to increase the demoralisation— [ Interruption ]. I am quoting his own words—I say that what ought to be done, and this is the right end of the problem, is for the Government to see what work there is to be done in this country. Not relief work, but work which is essential to bring us up to a level with our rivals, to begin with, and afterwards to go beyond that —not works of charity. I have made some suggestions. Heaven forbid that I should say that is the end! Let everybody make his suggestions. I have made my contribution. Will somebody else make his, and let us put them all into the common stock. There is plenty of work to be done in this country for the utilisation of the energies of these young men instead of our having this catastrophe to which the right hon. Gentleman pointed four years ago which is still going on, and nothing practically being done.
I saw that statement from the Lord Privy Seal which appeared this morning. I say it is thorough make believe; there is no work in it. The unemployment figure has gone up by more than 150,000 since he started, and the right hon. Lady said to-night in my hearing that we have not reached the peak. The figure is going up, steadily, steadily— and there is nothing after nearly six months which has been projected by this Government. [ Interruption. ] I say so in this House, and I am prepared at any moment to face it. I say there is nothing in those schemes that will provide employment for one-third of the increase since the right hon. Gentleman took office. The Government are going on and on as if time did not matter. It does. [ Interruption. ] That is not the way in which the unemployment problem can be solved. [ Interruption. ] I have heard it referred to as the tragedy of unemployment.
It is your tragedy.
I do not care whose tragedy it is, but it is there, and it is allowed to go on just as if time does not matter. It matters to the unemployed, it matters to the country and it matters to the prestige of this great Empire. It matters to the Government who seem to forget that they are a minority Government. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] I have been a Member of this House longer than hon. Members opposite and I know that majority Governments always end by continuing in office five years, and they proceed on the assumption that the worse they do the more their supporters will stick to them because they dare not turn them out. By the curious working of the British Constitution you cannot change all that without pulling out the plug and sinking the whole boat. There is no other country in Europe in which this happens, and if it did you would not have settled stabilisation as you have in France, Germany or Belgium if you had had a Government that could go on uninterruptedly for four or five years, without being able to turn it out.
There is an advantage in a minority Government, and it is an advantage to hon. Gentlemen opposite. You have here people who are prepared to assist the Government in any great projects they put forward for handling this topic; you have an assurance from myself and my friends that we will support the Government in any well considered enterprise to find work for the unemployed which will benefit the nation as a whole, but you really cannot go on much longer unless you do something more to deal with the unemployed than the proposals of the Lord Privy Seal supplemented by this small addition to our burdens. You cannot expect the House of Commons to tolerate it, and I cannot understand why hon. Members opposite tolerate it. Therefore, I repeat that after the Second Reading of this Measure we will give it the closest scrutiny in Committee. I hope that it is not the last word of the Government or of the Lord Privy Seal on the question of unemployment to say that they will consider Amendments, but I trust that they will tackle their job as well.
I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) upon the good humour of his speech, although I am afraid that he has gone somewhat beyond the scope of the Measure immediately before us. I hope that the liberty he has taken will be extended to others who take part in the Second Heading Debate of this Measure. I want to say a word in reply to the charge which has been made by the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Kelvingrove (Major Elliot) who made a charge of insincerity against the Government. I do not know of any public speech or public document which justifies the hon. and gallant Gentleman in making such a statement. There is an Amendment on the Order Paper which I would like to read to the House. It says:
"That this House records its profound regret that the Bill, while abolishing the fourth statutory condition for the receipt of benefit, imposes a new condition which still leaves the burden of proof of his search for employment upon the applicant for benefit; which does not provide a pound a week for an adult unemployed man, 10 shillings for his wife, and five shillings for each dependent child, and leaves young persons inadequately provided for; and which fails to restore the waiting period to three days as in the Act of 1924."
If my hon. and gallant Friend bases his charge of insincerity on that Motion, then I say that he is using his imagina- tion in a somewhat different way from that which he usually applies to other problems, which we know he frequently tackles with very great skill.
If the hon. Member desires me to withdraw the charge of insincerity, I am perfectly willing to do so.
The hon. and gallant Gentleman said that debate was impossible unless we went on the assumption that there was a certain amount of sincerity in each party. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs has told us that he is prepared to give the Government every loyal assistance in doing anything that they please to employ men, but he is not prepared to allow them to spend any more money in relieving unemployed persons. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] I am trying to give a fair description of what the right hon. Gentleman said, and, if I am wrong, I am willing to give way.
I said that I was very doubtful about the age of 19, but surely the remedy for unemployment should be to provide work for the poor people who are unemployed and concentrate upon that object rather than the giving of increased allowances.
I wish the right hon. Gentleman had been more specific still, because I have noticed, in arguing this question with my colleagues, that he is regarded in the main by a large proportion of people as the stumbling block in this country to anything more being done for the unemployed men and women and their dependants.
I do not know on what ground the hon. Member bases that statement. The first statement that I have made on this point is the one which I have made this afternoon. I have never criticised any proposals with regard to an increase of allowances, but I am against increasing the amount of unemployment allowances where there is no incentive to work.
I wish the right hon. Gentleman would be a little more specific in his statement. I am joining with the right hon. Gentleman in the appeal which he has made that on this Measure the House should regard itself as a Council of State, and that the Government should not try to get up on any high horse of dignity and say that any criticisms or suggestions will be resented. They should treat the House as a body of equals, and sit down calmly to do the right thing about unemployment and the unemployed man. We have been told by the hon. and gallant Gentleman who has spoken for the official Opposition and by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs that the problem involved in this Bill is mainly a problem of money, and that the money is not available. The right hon. Gentleman expressed alarm about an expenditure of ÂŁ12,500,000 being involved by this Measure, but when he heard that only ÂŁ3,500,000 of that sum was going to the unemployed and the other ÂŁ9,000,000 was going to the moneylenders, then he was much relieved. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs told us that the country cannot afford this heavy expenditure, but, in spite of this, he has already suggested in this House and during the Election campaign that ÂŁ200,000,000 should be taken out of industry to deal with unemployment.
No.
The right hon. Gentleman suggested that the maximum of speed should be put into the making of roads. That would be putting the money into an industry which does not offer any immediate return for the money invested, and therefore he made the statement that there was £200,000,000 of surplus wealth knocking about this country, and he thought that the country could afford to put it under the steam roller. The right hon. Gentleman has never attempted to deny that there is £200,000,000 available. I heard the right hon. Gentleman say that in his Budget statement when he stood at the Treasury Box and attempted to prove that the country was prosperous. On that occasion, he told us that there was £500,000,000 of surplus wealth which had been created that year. He also told us that in the same year £100,000,000 had been put into new industrial developments, and that £149,000,000 had been sent abroad for foreign investments. He further told us that there were many more millions invested in public securities, and many more went into bank deposits, all that being wealth which had been created during that year. The reply was that there was plenty of money available. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, a few days ago, went into the market and offered a new loan at 5½ per cent., and we found investors running along with their stockings. The late Chancellor of the Exchequer, when dealing with this question, said: "Yes, we have the money, but, if we want to safeguard the nation's industries, is it right to put it into a thing like roads, when it could be put into industry through the ordinary channels of investment where it would do the most good?" [ Interruption. ]
He says, let it find its way into industry through the ordinary channels of investment. That means Hatry, I suppose; that means Wall Street, I suppose; that means, at home, gramophone records, and Celanese, and automatic machines, and motor cycles, and picture shows, and dog racing, and all these great fundamental things that this nation demands. As to the attitude of myself and those few hon. Members on these benches for whom I can speak with complete confidence—I have had one or two body-blows in this matter in the last day or two, and, as I am not exactly a Camera, I am being rather more cautious, but I am still in the ring, and, so far, my seconds have not thrown in the sponge—speaking for the few Members of this House that I can speak for, we say, rather than put £200,000,000 into making roads, rather than put £200,000,000 into Wall Street, or Hatry, or stupid investments of that kind, put it into British human beings, men, women and children; build human beings that you can be proud of. The right hon. Gentleman and the hon. and gallant Gentleman above the Gangway, and to a lesser extent the right hon. Lady, are desperately afraid that, if we give the working people of this country too much money—that being £l for a man, 10s. for his wife, and 2s. for each of his youngsters—[HON. MEMBERS: "Five shillings!"]—5s. for each of his youngsters, we are going to demoralise the whole nation.
My friends believe in work as the basis for the right to live in this community just as sincerely as anybody over there, and more generally. We believe that not only is work the justification for the right of citizenship, but that it should be the only justification, and that right on the basis of mere ownership should be put a stop to; so that we give place to no one in this House in our regard to the view that the normal basis on which a man can base his claim to a livelihood is that he is prepared to play some part in the public service of the nation. But not statesmen, industrialists, thinkers of all descriptions—not the finest economists in our universities, neither the great captains of industry nor the statesmen of any party—have been able to come forward with a device that will provide work for everybody. We say that, since that is the case, you have no right to talk about demoralising men with another couple of shillings, you have no right to ask these 1,000,000 people to shoulder the burden of all our mistakes. That is what you are doing. Two shillings for a child! The price of a pint of milk is 3d. Give the baby a pint of milk each day for a week— 1s. 9d. gone; 3d. left for all that the wee tot needs. Would you demoralise that baby if you gave its mother 5s.? That is at the youngest age. I have one little fellow eight years old. I took him the other day to buy some clothes—an overcoat, a suit of clothes, and one or two odds and ends, a cap and so on—£4 odd! Then, later on, a strong pair of boots— 13s.! [ Interruption. ] Five pounds to clothe my youngster—a year's allowance! And when I go up in another three weeks I will probably be told that he has kicked the toes out of his boots and worn the seat out of his trousers; and I will be glad and proud that my youngster is alive and able to play football and run about and climb trees—I will be glad to know these things. And every one of you is in the same position. Every man in this House who is a father is going to see that his youngsters get a decent show, and I only ask the whole of this House, and particularly the men sitting on these benches with me, that they act as politicians with the same mind as they act as fathers.
The hon. Member who has just addressed the House is always listened to with interest, although many of us may not be able to go all the way with him. It shows the difficulties with which the Minister of Labour has to contend when, at a time when she has to meet a heavy frontal attack from this side of the House, she is also exposed to enfilading fire from no fewer than 31 of those who are associated with her party. The fact that it has the support of about 30 hon. Members shows the importance of the Amendment which has been put down, and which registers the profound regret of the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken with regard to the attitude of the Government. I may, perhaps, say, having spent 4½ years at Montagu House during the time of the last Government, that probably no one appreciates the difficulties of the Minister of Labour more than I do. I may have to criticise the administration of the present Minister of Labour, but I do appreciate the difficulties with which the right hon. Lady has to contend, and, if I may say so, we all regret, in view of the difficult task that she has had during the last few months, that she should have been crippled by an accident.
As regards the proposal before the House at present, I should like to say, first of all, a word or two with regard to the bringing of juveniles into insurance at the age of 15. I want hon. Members to realise that, even at the present time, with education stopping at 14 plus, the amount of juvenile unemployment is extremely small, and that by 1931, even if the education age were to remain as it is at present, juvenile unemployment will cease and there will be a shortage. If, however, we examine the position as it will be if the education age is put up to 15, we find that there will actually be a very considerable shortage of juveniles coming into employment. The figures which I have, based on Ministry of Labour figures, indicate that the shortage will be from 300,000 to three-quarters of a million in the year 1934. In five years' time there will actually be a shortage of some 700,000 juveniles, and that at a time when it is suggested that for the first time boys and girls of 15 should be brought into unemployment insurance. It seems utterly unnecessary at a time like this that an addition should be made to the charges upon industry and to the charges on the young people themselves, and that, at a time when in all probability there will be a tremendous demand for young people, they should then be compulsorily insured against a risk which in most cases will not arise.
There is a further very grave objection, and here I am going to quote for a moment the Blanesburgh Report, a non-party Report signed, as the House knows, by the right hon. Lady the present Minister of Labour. The Blanesburgh Committee say in their Report:
When I was at the Ministry of Labour I saw a good deal of the juvenile employment centres, and I was all in favour of the work they were doing; but I am afraid that proposals of this sort will militate very much against these juvenile employment centres. The atmosphere that we were trying to create, of giving children work to do if they were out of work, will, I am afraid, be very much militated against by the possibility of their getting benefit when they are so much younger and when they have done so relatively small an amount of work. It is common ground that benefit should be confined to persons of good faith. The right hon. Lady said that, when she first went to Montagu House, she was swamped with letters from people who said that the "genuinely seeking work" Clause was not working fairly. In my 4½ years at Montagu House I had letters from Members of Parliament in all quarters of the House which certainly gave cases where it would seem that the Act was pressing harshly upon many individuals; but I must say that, when the replies came at the end of a fortnight or so from the Department, in the vast majority of cases an entirely fresh outlook was placed upon them, and in the vast majority of cases I came to the conclusion that no injustice was being done.
The right hon. Lady, as far as I can see, is going to throw the onus entirely upon the insurance officers and the Employment Exchanges. The hon. Member who spoke last takes rather a different view, but, as I see it, it will be practically impossible for the Employment Exchanges to find out, yes or no, whether there is really work available. [An HON. MEMBER: "What were they instituted for?"] In order to give people an opportunity of providing work. As the right hon. Lady has said, only one vacancy in five is now filled through the medium of the Employment Exchanges. Therefore, if four-fifths of the vacancies are not being filled through the Employment Exchanges, what chance has the manager of an Employment Exchange of knowing whether or not there are vacancies, and what chance is there of checking statements made, it may be in good faith, by applicants for benefit? As I see it, the whole of the administrative machinery will to a large extent break down because of this new clause with regard to genuinely seeking work.
In the past, it has been the insurance officer who had the right of saying, of course with an appeal to the chief insurance officer and the umpire, whether or not the clause was being fulfilled. In future it is to be courts of referees all up and down the country, whose basis of ascertainment will obviously be entirely of a different nature, in accordance with personal predilections, personal views, and all sorts of personal questions. To my mind it will be a very great misfortune if you lose the certain measure of uniformity which has hitherto created the administration of this very difficult clause, and you will have to have innumerable cases taken by insurance officers up to the umpire. Last year some 6,000 cases only went up to the umpire, and some 300,000 to 400,000 cases were refused benefit on the score of not genuinely seeking work. I think that number of 6,000 will be multiplied certainly ten-fold, and it may be even more, and we shall find this system break down hopelessly, and the machinery will be clogged because of the different verdicts which will be given by courts of referees up and down the country.
The Blanesburgh Report was a nonpartisan report signed by, I think, three members of the party opposite, and one of their very important recommendations was that, as regards insurance in the future, one-third of the cost should be borne by the State. One-third of the cost is, in round figures, some ÂŁ12,000,000 to ÂŁ13,000,000. I put out of my calculations for the moment the extra ÂŁ4,000,000 which the State is bearing during the transitional period arrangements. By this Bill the State will have to bear not ÂŁ12,000,000 but ÂŁ16,000,000. The Blanesburgh Report said that it hoped an equal contribution would be a permanent feature of any future scheme. This may or may not be a permanent scheme. I am sure the right hon. Gentleman has not been anxious to give the extra ÂŁ4,000,000. but, for the first time, the State is making a contribution of some ÂŁ16,000,000, as against ÂŁ12,000,000 from the employer and ÂŁ12,000,000 from the employed. The right hon. Gentleman has also added to the burden of the taxpayers as a whole a sum of ÂŁ8,000,000, roughly speaking, ÂŁ4,000,000 this year and ÂŁ4,000,000 next year, with regard to the 120,000 who are in what is called the distressed areas. That also, of course, throws the finance of the scheme entirely out and means that some ÂŁ20,000,000 will come from the State, as against ÂŁ12,000,000 from the other contributors.
In the past we have had a Bill based on one benefit for six weeks' contributions and 26 weeks in all. In place of that came the Measure brought in under the Blanesburgh Report, of 30 contributions for those who had been at work for 30 weeks in the previous two years. We have now left both those schemes. We are now, as it were, launching right out into the air without any firm basis of actuarial or insurance calculation at all, and when one asks a question, as I have done to-day, with regard to the amount that would be involved as regards the not genuinely seeking work Clause, or what takes its place under the new plan, one is told that no definite figure can be given, and it is purely in the nature of an estimate. That shows that it is a leap in the dark that the House is making. The difficulty lies, as all those who have studied the question closely know, not in the day to day unemployment that exists in industry, and will always exist to some extent. It lies in those large pockets of unemployment which exist, especially in South Wales, and on the north-east coast, those large pockets of, roughly speaking, 120,000, who come outside the Blanesburgh Report, for whom exceptional provision had to be made, and whom we are all most anxious to get back into work. The plan of the late Government was to try, by means of industrial transference, to take off the corners of these pockets of unemployment, starting first of all with unmarried men, who obviously can be moved most easily, then by means of grants to the young married men to try to get them moved also.
As I see the proposals now put forward, you are going in a large measure to stop industrial transference, because the men will now know that if they stay on where they are for the next 18 months at all events, these transitional arrangements being continued, they can get unemployment pay until the Spring of 1930, and, therefore, the men without much enterprise, who do not want to go to the cities and elsewhere, it may be in the South where there are openings, will stay on in South Wales and on the north-east coast in a way they would not have done if the Government had not announced their intention of continuing the transitional arrangements for a further period of 18 months. I have tried to show that the Bill demoralises the young. From every point of view it also demoralises the older men. I saw in South Wales a year ago many letters from men working in the London area, where some 200,000 have been absorbed in fresh industry in the last two years. We ought to continue that policy. The continuance of these grants of unemployment benefit to men who have made 30 contributions in the last two years is to my mind the most vicious part of the whole Bill. We feel very strongly indeed with regard to many of its provisions, and we shall oppose it on Second Reading and as much as we can in Committee.
I desire to challenge the hon. Member's assumption. The whole burden of his song seems to be that unemployment can best be handled by the method of transfer. I represent the Dart-ford Division. The unemployment figures for that Division bear no relation at all to the actual figures of unemployment. They are the official figures dealing with those in receipt of unemployment benefit, or who hope to qualify again for benefit. For every one who figures on the official list there are at least eight or 10 who have no hope at all, and if the figures of unemployment are going up now, it is because men who are still genuinely seeking work are now again registering at the Exchanges in the hope that somehow or other they may come off the rates and on to the Exchange returns. Is there anything unmanly or un British in that?
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) spoke as though the fact of the unemployment figures rising was a proof that Ministers were not doing anything at all. It is a proof that the numbers of unemployed, who have been treated shockingly in the last four years, are now figuring on the official list of the unemployed for the first time. Many of my colleagues would like, if it were possible, to see schemes put in hand for dealing with the adolescent. I was on that side of the House in 1920 and 1921, when aeroplane stations, or hangars, were on every one of the highest and healthiest plateaux in the country. We begged of the Government of the day instead of paying men, as they were then doing, to break up the most valuable machinery ever bought during the War, to take this problem in hand of keeping the adolescent at least in the fresh air, and away from the temptations of city life if you could not put them into ordinary habits of daily industry.
We who have been through the mill who know exactly what the job is, say again that if there are boys and girls leaving school, as they have been since the War period, if they have gone two. three, four or five years without the opportunity of a job, you yourselves have created the mentality that has resulted in the problem that faces us to-day. I am certain that if the Front Bench secure the co-operation of every Member in the House in the ideas that were put forward and absorbed for the training of these young fellows and young women, it will be the best step we can take. Meantime the Ministry of Labour and the Chancellor of the Exchequer have put down a sum which, while it is criticised on this side as being inadequate, is being criticised on that side as being far too generous, which suggests to me that the happy medium is, after all, the proof of sane government, and for that reason I shall support the Bill.
7.0 p.m.
In rising for the first time to address the House, I ask for the usual kindly indulgence that is accorded to new Members. I feel especially diffident after the many speeches which have been made by Members of the Front Benches and experienced Parliamentarians. It would have been easy for me to twit hon. Members opposite with the fact that this Bill is possibly the ridiculous mouse of that mountain in whose name the last Amendment on the paper stands in labour. In other words, it is the product of their travail in the effort to get work or maintenance. Far be it from me to goad them to greater travail. It would be easy to take the line of hon. Members below the Gangway who varnish the Bill with a certain amount of dispraise, and then go into the Lobby to vote for it—varnishing it with dispraise, possibly in a way to ease the ghosts of a once uneasy conscience; voting for it possibly with an eye to the uneasy votes of their electors. But, indeed, it seems to me, a new Member, in all humility coming into this House. But with no necessity to apologise for his past actions, that possibly we are too busy doing lip service to independence and to virility and at the same time sapping them with Measures such as this.
I have not the legal knowledge nor the Parliamentary experience to go deeply into the intricate details of the working of this Act, but I can see clearly that to call this Bill an Unemployment Insurance Bill is an act of hypocrisy. It is not insurance, but charity. It is the second Bill within three weeks which has been a travesty of the contributory system. Under this Bill it is quite possible, and it might in all probability be quite right, for a man with a wife and three children as dependents, to draw more or less 60s. a week according to the age of the children. That 60s. is to be paid without any due regard to the justifiable actuarial contributions which the insured may or may not have paid. When we work on those lines, we are doing what the right hon. Lady who introduced the Bill called damage to the morale. We have again the old formula for "genuinely seeking work" removed, and in its place we have the burden of proof thrown on to the authorities instead. In other words, the State officials must either turn a blind eye to what they consider to be idleness or else they must form themselves into a new bureaucratic department for the investigation of the private lives of those claiming benefit. The choice lies between an unlimited acquiescence in charity or a new bureaucratic office for spying into private lives. Thus evil is balanced by evil. But that is only the beginning of a greater evil involved in this Bill in the overthrow of the whole contributory principle.
The right hon. Lady who introduced this Bill has changed her mind since the signing of the Blanesburgh Report. We can all admire her courage in doing so, but I would like to read a paragraph in the conclusion of that Report which seems to me still the basis—whatever changes of mind we may make—of the principles of enduring wisdom: people of this country. This is eating into the stubborn independence and endurance of our English character. Worst of all, it is aiming at the youngest among us, our juvenile population. The right hon. Lady spoke of the willingness in adventure that is checked. Her actual words were: "The willingness to adventure is checked," and, out of her own mouth, surely we cannot have a better condemnation of this scheme. The broad fact emerges that there are about 3,000,000 juveniles who may or who may not benefit, but who will have to contribute under this new Act. The fact that in normal events they will contribute but will probably not fall on the unemployment register must mean that they will always consider that they are giving the State something for nothing, and that they will have the pillow of the State to fall back upon in order to get the benefits for which they are paying.
I can conceive of nothing which is more a travesty of the contributory system to the juveniles of this country. The right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) in the last part of his speech, gave us a very considerable and a very wise disquisition on the unemployment problem. We have still the finest body of working men and women in the world, but it is the system which applies benefits for which there is no actuarial contributory excuse which is wrong. Yet we are told that this Bill is only the first step and the first instalment. Surely, now is the time, if ever there was a time, to stop this disaster The dole is working evil. I am not talking about the contributory insurance scheme, but the dole. It is working evil, just as much evil as the unemployment which it palliates. Let us reject this Bill and, instead of calling this unemployment insurance, let us call it charity, which it is. Let us call things by their true names. Five months after the election,, which hon. Members opposite fought on-the noble cry of "Work for the workless," there is less work to be had. Instead of that they produce this Bill which I say, without any hesitation and with no fear of losing votes, is a Bill for the stabilisation of idleness.
We must all be willing in every quarter of the House to co-operate in finding work and we would gladly give the money, which we are called upon to vote for unemployment insurance, for the practical training of juveniles and for their education. We are willing to co-operate in anything that will give work to the people of the country. We have an Empire to-day which is crying for development. We have neglected our distressed agriculture, one of the things which needs support and money and which will produce enduring wealth in this country if tackled fearlessly. Opportunity lies at the feet of Members. In this Bill, after five months, instead of a real policy we get a policy of "bread and circuses." Teach us to grow our own bread and we will do everything in our power. If one thinks honestly, one must discover the whole principle of this Bill. If we are going to have charity, let us call it charity and let it be administered as charity. If we are going to have contributory unemployment insurance, let it be contributory insurance. If one thinks, one must vote for the rejection of this Bill. The electors will respond when they see honesty. We must save ourselves by fearless honesty in thinking aloud.
One feels, of course, that the contribution of a new Member in his maiden speech is always very welcome, but it also holds immune from criticism the hon. Member who makes the speech. It must not, therefore, be understood that many of the things that the last speaker said could not be properly and adequately criticised. The hon. and gallant Member for Kelvingrove (Major Elliot) made one or two statements which I really must put in their proper light. In speaking of the Minister of Labour, he said that this Bill was the acceptance of the principle of a stabilised 1,200,000 unemployed, and that the financial provisions and the actuaries' statement were based on that figure being in existence for three years. He quite forgot the statement of the Minister of Labour in his Government when in power during the discussion on the 1927 Act. He said that by April, 1929, when the transitional period would be ended, he expected that the figure of unemployment would be down to somewhere between 720,000 and 750,000. It was a very optimistic point of view, because that 750,000 has to-day grown into 1,230,000.
In the face of that it seems that very little can be said as to banking on a figure of unemployed persons for any period beforehand. In quoting the Report of the Morris Committee on the fourth statutory condition the hon. and gallant Gentleman mentioned that the word "diligence" came up very prominently. I want to remind the House, as well as the hon. and gallant Gentleman that the Morris Report, which was issued by the Committee of which I happened to a member, on the fourth statutory condition only represents the point of view of two of its members, and that there is another point of view held by two other members, or, that there is another point of view held by one member, and that one member did not sign the Report. Both the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Kelvingrove and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) made a great point of what is termed the "mixing of non-contributory scheme benefits with a contributory scheme."
The hon. and gallant Member for Kelvingrove said, if I heard him correctly, that the ÂŁ8,000,000 set aside to carry over the transitional period was introducing the payment of benefits for no contributions. I think he said that we are introducing the non-contributory benefit side by side with the contributory benefit within the field of unemployment insurance, as though the principle was being introduced for the first time. The right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs first introduced benefits for no contributions, although he now criticises the fact that we are about to give benefits from State funds to persons who will be carried over in the transitional period. It is well to remember that the 1920 Act embraced thousands of persons who never had a stamp qualification at all, but whose qualification for benefit was that they had been employed in an industry that was included under the 1920 Act.
There is another point which has a bearing upon the matter. In 1918 there was an out-of-work donation scheme brought into being by the Government of the day. It gave benefits to demobilised soldiers and to discharged munition workers. Early in 1921, about 200,000 in these two categories were transferred from State funds to the Unemployment Insurance Fund under the Act of 1920. The scale of benefits paid under the out-of-work donation scheme was above the highest scale of benefits that has been suggested in connection with any unemployment insurance scheme since. 29s. per week was paid to each man, with 6s. for each child. This was a measure of benefits in respect of no contributions far in excess of any benefits yet suggested under an Unemployment Insurance Act. Yet we are told by the Opposition to-day that this carrying over by State aid of benefit liabilities for unemployed persons is something new and something wrong, and a principle which has never yet been accepted. The Government of the day in 1920 were responsible for introducing what I will call the commencement of the crazy patchwork system of dealing piecemeal with unemployment problems from the insurance point of view.
This is an interesting point. I think I hardly made myself clear if the hon. Gentleman thinks that I said that it was wrong. I said that it was a new departure and would lead to unexpected consequences. When it was introduced in 1919 it was in connection with a demobilisation scheme which had nothing to do with the continuing machinery of unemployment insurance. In 1919 the whole 100 per cent. Exchequer grant was given under a demobilisation scheme, which was to come to an end. The principle precisely introduces something new, in that it introduces a continuing scheme. I do not say that it is wrong but that it is a very interesting new departure and will have very unexpected results.
I think that the hon. and gallant Gentleman is not quite clear in regard to his facts. In 1918 there was an out-of-work donation Measure in respect of demobilised soldiers and workers discharged from munition work. It included industrial workers as well as demobilised ex-service men.
Over 2,000,000 of them.
29s. per week was paid to each man, 25s. to each woman, and 6s. for each dependent child under the age of 15. Therefore it is not novel to include State aided benefits to persons who by reason of nine years of distressing unemployment cannot satisfy the stamp qualification of the day. Rather than that the 120,000 should be disqualified under the Act of 1927 by the transitional period being allowed to run out, rather than that they should remain on the Fund, the debt on which is piling up at the rate of ÂŁ7,500,000 a year, the Treasury should pay the benefit during the carry over to persons in these difficulties. You can either transfer to the taxpayer by a direct Treasury grant the maintenance of those who otherwise would fall upon a Fund which is already ÂŁ37,000,000 in debt, or cut those poor people out and put them on to the local Poor Law authorities or upon whatever authority may be called upon to deal with the matter. One of the best parts of the Bill, in my opinion, is the direct grant from the Exchequer to ease the Fund and carry over those working under the transitional provisions but unable to produce the stamp qualification which would establish their rights. Four million pounds, I understand, is to provide for new benefits. This is apart from the ÂŁ8,500,000 in connection with the transitional period and the increased benefits to those affected by the transitional period.
I appreciate to a limited extent the effort which is being made by the Government of the day to deal with this very perplexing problem, but, needless to say, I regret that it falls far short of what one has a right to expect from a Labour Government. Joint conferences, joint representations, joint action industrialists through the Trades Union Congress General Council and the Labour Party Executive set forth two lines of action. They preferred unemployment benefit from the general taxation of the country rather than a direct burden upon wages or upon industry. We feel to some extent that a direct charge upon industry has already crippled many of the industries. There is the palliative side. Surely we ought to grapple with the palliative side with a greater degree of confidence and fearlessness than is apparent at the present moment. We are told that this is the twentieth Bill since 1920. It is about the twenty-sixth Bill dealing with unemployment insurance since 1911. We are told, with each succeeding Bill, that it is the intention of the Government presenting that Bill sooner or later to bring in a consolidating Bill to deal with the whole of the unemployment insurance business in a comprehensive manner. I wonder when we are likely to have that consolidating Bill, and to set about in real earnest to deal with this unemployment insurance in a more comprehensive manner than we have done during the last nine years.
I hope that before the Committee stage of this Bill is through hon. Members will read the published evidence given before the Morris Committee, especially in connection with the fourth statutory condition. The most urgent critic of the proposal covered in the reservation signed by myself and Mrs. Councillor Adams will at once become an ardent supporter of the point of view which we arrived at in that connection. From every witness there came instances of the difficulties of the not-genuinely-seeking-work provision, in its application. It may be said that the words in this Bill will not be capable of any such interpretation. The not-genuinely-seeking-work development, in its vicious form, only occurred in the last two years. It operated fairly reasonably for the first two or three years, and then there grew up a desire to weed out, to use some form of interrogation, and, as the Home Secretary said, to adopt a form of persecution in order to test the genuineness of many genuine men and women. There are words in the Bill which I hope the Minister of Labour will seriously consider during the Committee stage to see whether it is not possible to bring them as nearly as possible in harmony with the reservations that were signed in connection with the Report of the Morris Committee. There are words in the Bill that can be turned and twisted, if the inclination is there to use them, into a form of interrogation which will be not less acute than that which has operated under the not-genuinely-seeking-work provision.
After nine years of unemployment such as we have gone through, and the fact that almost half of our adult male population have been unemployed from one up to three or four months, on an average, if we are to recondition men and women and to make them fit to take their places in industry, when it can absorb them, this is the time when something more substantial should be done for them, and there should not be the necessity of an individual being called upon to parade before the factory gates. This Bill will still make that form of application possible. I cannot see why the Ministry cannot say that at this stage the real test and the only test is the definite offer of suitable employment and a definite refusal on the part of the applicant to take it. The argument against that is that the Employment Exchanges deal only with 17½ per cent of the vacancies and that, therefore, the Exchanges ought not to be asked to take the responsibility of proving the offer of employment, with that limited number of vacancies coming under their purview. The fact that 82½ per cent. of the vacancies are filled by the perseverance of the unemployed persons, or by arrangements between the employers and the trade unions, is a justification for the request that the residue should not be called upon to prove their persistent search, and that the Exchanges should be called upon to prove, before they can disqualify, that there has been a definite offer of employment and that that offer has been refused. The fact that the Exchanges have to deal with only 17½ per cent. of the unemployed persons and that 82½ per cent. of the unemployed get into employment without reference to the Exchanges, shows that there can be no real charge as to slacking or as to living on the dole or as to idlers who have no desire to work being levelled against that section of the community, when they can secure employment without the vacancies coming within the purview of the Employment Exchanges.
Another argument used is: How are you going to find out the shirker unless you apply a test? Let me put it, as I put it in my reservation in connection with the Morris Report, that unemployed men and women are always searching for employment. There is not one-half of 1 per cent of unemployed persons who can be put into the category of doubt in this respect. One of the principal officials of the Ministry of Labour, in speaking at the London School of Economics, I believe it was in 1925, said that out of an examination of 10,000 cases there was only a fraction of 1 per cent. who could be called—he did not use these actual words —work dodgers. To get at that fraction of 1 per cent., we put upon the unemployed person the onus of proving that they had been genuinely seeking work. I hope that in Committee we shall be able to go more fully into that matter and that the Ministry will be able to do something more substantial than is at present in the Bill.
There is a wise provision in the Bill with regard to suitable employment. Under that provision, it will be possible to say to an engineer or to any other person who follows a particular trade or calling and who has been unemployed for a long time: "We feel that we ought to have a chat with you in order that we may come to an agreement as to whether there is alternative and suitable employment that you might look for." I am glad to know that in the Morris Report, which has been accepted by the Ministry, we recommended that, in the first place, the exchange representatives should have a talk with the individual as a friend, and not as is the case at the present time where the unemployed person goes to an interview with a dread that he is going to a place where somebody will try to do him out of his benefit. We want the Exchanges to have an atmosphere surrounding them in which the unemployed person need not be afraid but can feel that he is going for advice and discussion as to the best uses that he can make of his time in the finding of suitable employment. There is to be agreement between the applicant and the exchange on this matter, failing which it is to be settled by the court of referees.
I regret that there is no Clause in the Bill to reduce the waiting period. I am profoundly disappointed over that. In 1924 the Labour party put a three days waiting period in their Bill. In 1925 the Government of the day erased the three days waiting period and inserted six days. That was part of the economy campaign to save a few millions of money.
I suppose it was not worth doing.
What was it? A sum of between four and five millions of money was represented in that change from three days to six days. When the Conservative party raised the waiting period to six days it meant that an un- employed person had to wait for six days, without benefit. Anybody working in the heavy industries of the country, where wages rule below ÂŁ2 a week, had very little margin to stop them from having to approach the relieving officer, although they had been signing on for a whole week. If they could have had three days benefit it would have been something to help them to tide over the temporary difficulties, but a great nation to save ÂŁ4,000,000 or ÂŁ5,000,000 in an economy campaign said that there must be this waiting period of six days, which meant that that period may have been given five times a year by the same individual. Now, the Labour Government say: "We cannot restore that which we believed in in 1924." The right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) says that it is well for the Government to remember that they are a minority Government. They were more of a minority Government in 1924. Therefore, hon. Members below the Gangway opposite might well support the Labour Ministry of to-day in restoring the three days waiting period which they supported in 1924. I appeal to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The cost would be about ÂŁ4,000,000. To speak frankly and openly about the matter, if we had only ÂŁ4,000,000 of money available I would prefer to give it in the form of reducing the waiting period from six to three days than in increasing the benefit allowance to that particular limit.
There are 10,000,000 claims in the course of a year and there is, roughly, an average of 1,200,000 persons unemployed. Roughly, 4,000,000 persons would directly benefit as a result of putting in this Bill something that we put in our Bill in 1924, and restoring that which was ruthlessly cut away by the Conservative Government. We need not listen to the wailings of hon. Members opposite about the terrible expense of it. When human lives are in the balance money is insignificant by comparison, especially if that money is used for vulgar luxurious display on the part of persons who never did genuinely seek to do any useful work. We have 1,230,000 persons on the live register, and 87 per cent. of the applicants can establish the right to benefit, but I should be right in saying that of the 1,230,000 on the live register 155,000 are not in receipt of benefit. Many thousands of these are on the two months file, to which I have referred, that mystic kind of cemetery for the down and out. They lie there for two months and they then go to the crematorium, or somewhere else, nobody ever knows, but so far as we do know they are never resuscitated and never able to re-establish a claim when they have passed through that two months' file. When hon. Members opposite speak of the demoralising effect of the dole, it is well to remember that there are still 155,000 people who are not likely to secure any benefit.
There are one or two other points with which I want to deal. At one time one waiting period covered six weeks. If the person was in employment for more than six weeks he had to give another waiting period. In 1927 the Conservative party extended that period to 10 weeks, so that one waiting period covered 10 weeks. I contend that one waiting period a year is enough for any unemployed person to sacrifice. If during one year I put in my three days' or six days' waiting period, surely that ought to last for more than so many weeks or two months. I think it should last for the period of a year. At the moment, if I am at work for 10 weeks and then become unemployed, I must go through another waiting period, but if I can get my foreman to stand me off two or three days before the 10 weeks are up I can then establish my claim again without having to put in another waiting week.
Another point of outstanding importance to trade unions is the right of a trade union for closer association with Employment Exchanges and the Ministry of Labour in administering benefit. The Barnes Committee in 1919 made a definite recommendation that there should be closer co-operation between trade union administration and the Employment Exchanges. Trade union administration eases the work of the Employment Exchanges in the signing and payment of benefit administered under the Act, but instead of their being greater cooperation it has become worse, because trade unions have been hit by the unemployment of their members. If a trade union member makes an association claim through his union and runs out of his unemployment benefit, the trade union cannot continue to administer benefit to him as an association claim. They must cut him off from benefit, and transfer him to the Employment Exchange on a direct claim. If hon. Members will read the evidence given before the Morris Committee, they will see the opinion held by some people. It is said why not compel employers to notify vacancies to the Exchanges, and then they would have greater opportunities of giving employment to unemployed men. Does anyone imagine that while trade unions are treated in this unfair manner they are going to throw up the machinery they have with the employers for filling up vacancies and allow their men to take their chance with other applicants at the Employment Exchanges?
I urge that something better and greater, and more purposeful, something more to the credit of the great Labour party ought to be submitted to this House. I know the difficulties. I know it is said that this is a stop-gap. It is a plaster to deal with the immediate pain, a kind of salve for the amelioration of the harsh and more aggravated parts. Every Government shuffles in that way. Can the Government come again next year with a consolidating Bill, a large and comprehensive Measure, in the face of what must be a growing deficiency on the Fund? As time goes on something else will show in an aggravated form. It will mean that another little patch will be put on; and so the patchwork process will go on. We shall never get a consolidating Bill. I challenge anyone to understand insurance law from 1911 down to the present time, and I do not even bar the officials of the Ministry of Labour. I remember the right hon. and learned Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) coming into this House with a huge pile of volumes under his arm: He is a lawyer of undoubted ability, but he had to confess that with the many cross references he was absolutely puzzled, and he said that it was almost impossible to know what was the actual law in regard to unemployment insurance. If that is the state of mind of hon. Members in this House, then what must be the difficulties confronting the unemployed person who comes within the four corners of all this conglomeration of enactments? How can you expect them to understand what they have to do?
Let me briefly enumerate one or two other points which I think must receive attention. It is not right to have a select body of industrialists inside an insurance scheme. If you are going to have a proper scheme let it be an all-inclusive insurance scheme to include agricultural workers, domestic servants, and everyone without regard to income. Let it be an all-inclusive scheme. Your Disputes Clause is used against the trade unions of the country and wants revising. Your dependant's benefit needs revision. In the mining areas, where the houses are owned by the colliery proprietors, if a single man goes to work in these areas a married man must take him in as a lodger. If that married miner becomes unemployed and his wife has taken in this lodger, then, because it happens to be an occupation usually carried on for profit, although the miner's wife may not get sixpence or a shilling profit out of it, the married miner is cut out of dependent's allowance for his wife; and is cut out in circumstances when he has had no alternative but to obey the will of his employer. There is nothing in the Bill about that.
Then there is the case of an insured person who goes abroad and works for a British employer. He is cut out of this Insurance Bill altogether. All his previous contributions have gone. Hon. Members opposite talk about many people getting something for nothing, but there are many who pay all the time and can never enjoy any benefits because they have gone out of the country on a British contract and come back after several years abroad. A person who has established a stamp right to benefit and goes abroad on a British contract should have the right to renew that right as though their absence for three or four years had never cut into it at all. Those who go from an insurable employment to an un-insurable employment are not protected in this Bill. Many women go out as domestic servants. The same thing should apply in the case of those who go from an insurable occupation to an uninsurable occupation. I beg the Minister of Labour in Committee stage to do her best to make this Bill what it has been termed by hon. Members opposite, a fundamental Bill, a Measure by which we may, in face of the opposition of the Conservative party and with the pledged support of the Liberal party, repair many of the damages and inroads which have been made into unemployment insurance and remove from the unemployed people of this land the many afflictions which we have no right to perpetuate.
8.0 p.m.
The hon. Member for Nottingham West (Mr. Hayday) has mentioned the difficulty of understanding the different Insurance Acts, but as I have listened to him this evening it certainly appeared to me that it there was one hon. Member who really understood them it was the hon. Member himself. He was a little hopeful, however, when he expressed the wish that we should read the evidence which was given before the Morris Committee. We are grateful to him for his work on that Committee and I am sure their report has been a great help to hon. Members in understanding the Bill which is now before the House. He will excuse me if I do not follow him into the many committee points he has put before us. I want to address myself to two simple questions. Does this Bill make for the prosperity of the nation? Is it in the interests of the insured person? The nation, irrespective of party, is puzzled and worried by the continuance of 1,000,000 people out of work, and all parties are addressing themselves as to how they can help in a solution of the problem. I hold the view very strongly that the high rate of taxation is a very direct cause of unemployment in this country, and if hon. Members will compare the amount of unemployment here with the conditions in France, Germany and America, they will find that where taxation is highest unemployment is biggest. Taxation to-day in America is £6 per head of the population; in Germany it is £5, and in Great Britain it is £14. In these simple figures we have the direct cause of the extreme depth of unemployment in this country. No one would deny that this Bill does confer great benefits upon certain persons, but will it bring prosperity to the home? The insurance fund, according to the White Paper, contains some £31,000,000, collected from the employers and employés every year. That large sum is partly collected directly by the employers, by means of stamps, from the wages of the workers, and partly contributed by the employers, and the employer's contribution either is passed on to the consumer in the price of the article which the employer is making, or it tends to depress the wages of the people in the trade. Therefore, the sum of money which we are to-day considering in this Bill really comes from the wages of the insured persons. These payments made by the workers and by the employers on behalf of the workers are really forms of taxation. It is true that they are concealed forms of taxation, but nevertheless they are raised for a specific object, to give a specific benefit to the insured person.
Then I ask myself, how is that large sum of money which is collected weekly spent? Is it not spent in this way: that those who are out of work, one in every nine, are getting benefits, and for each one getting benefit there are eight people at work to-day who are being taxed to give relief to the man who is out of work. It has always been characteristic of the British public that they have been willing, and they are now willing, to make a personal sacrifice for a great cause; and during the last 10 years I think that, speaking broadly, those people in our industrial areas who are working have shouldered the burden of these insurance payments willingly and readily, to make provision for those who are out of work. Will they do that so readily when this Bill becomes law? It seems to me that the Government, by this Bill, cannot appeal to the men who are working so readily as they have done in the past.
The Government have jettisoned the Report of the Blanesburgh Committee; they have not accepted the recommendations of Sir Harold Morris's Committee; in addition to that they are increasing the benefit to the young, and, further, they are finding some ÂŁ12,000,000 from the taxpayer for these benefits. The ÂŁ12,000,000 which the Government are finding is a continuation of the policy which the Government have adopted during the last few months, of voting particular sums of money to particular classes of the community. It seems to me that if that practice is carried further, the people who will suffer most are the insured persons, and that if we continue much further this policy of largesse at the public expense, we may not succeed in furthering the interest of the insured persons, but that it will rather have the contrary effect. I hope that before the Division of the Second Reading of this Bill is taken, we may have some assurance from His Majesty's Government that on some of the Clauses of this Bill to which we take exception they will listen to our representations, otherwise some of us on these benches may have some difficulty in supporting them in the Division Lobby.
I want to say first of all that so far as my opinion is concerned, so far from there being any insincerity on the part of the Government, there is a want of the courage to come up to the standard which some of us on this side of the House reckon ought to be the standard unlifted by a Labour Government. There is not the slightest doubt at all, of course, about the money. Everybody in the House, and the majority of people outside the House, understand perfectly well that if the money is required for a specific purpose any amount of money can be got and will be got at once. The country has learned that very easily. The question, as it appears to me, is not a question of raising the money, but of the more critical fact which confronts the country now, and will confront it for some time yet to come, that over 1,000,000 people who are, as has been shown very ably by the hon. Member for West Nottingham (Mr. Hayday) absolutely sincere, earnest, and active in seeking work, are told by this rich country, "There is no work for you to do." I submit that that is the most powerful knock-out to the combined political forces in this House of Commons. There are symptoms in the country, and very marked indications within the House, which show that that particular aspect of the question will have to be faced very shortly between the three parties which constitute the House.
Speaking on this subject on another occasion I have said that among our political forces in this country, among the men and women occupying responsible positions in the House, we are not devoid of those who have capacity, who have understanding, and who have knowledge, but that there are factors at work in our commercial and financial system which are shutting men out of work, and the difficulty is to face the situation in realistic and genuine fashion. There are vested interests which, long ere now, proclaimed themselves through the late Lord Oxford, when, as Mr. Asquith, speaking in this House on the subject of the Eight to Work Bill, he declared that there must always be a margin of unemployed facing the country on the present system. I submit that if that is the situation, the demoralisation which has been emphasised very freely to-day by hon. Members on the opposite side, is brought about, not by finding some little sum of money to carry these people along in the state of mere existence, but that it arises from the idle rich being able to wallow in wealth at the cost of the demoralisation of multitudes of our people who cannot get a chance to live. It makes one feel somewhat bitter to have these views expressed, when one knows what takes place in our constituencies with the individual men and women who are out of work.
I know that in this House it is not considered the thing to enlarge upon the sentimental aspect of the question, but there is no gainsaying, whether we like it or not, that painful aspect of it which grips our hearts and minds when we are confronted with the individual man or woman out of work and asking "What am I to do?" That is a question which is being put to hon. Members of this House in every constituency, and we have to give the painful answer that, so far as we individually are concerned, as regards the settlement of that question we are not able to give any satisfaction. That is the profound difficulty confronting this House, and I submit that there is a solemn responsibility on a man or woman who is a Member of this Government, or of any other Government, to ask that question concerning themselves: "How would it be with us if we were in that plight?" I have received this very week a letter from the son of one who was a minister in our constituency, and who had been in business and was making some progress in business, but was unsuccessful, and was broken completely—an able man, but unable to find employment—writing in desperation to ask "Can you do anything to help?" I am bound to reply that so far as I can find there are no ways in which we can help.
The Government are in this Bill making some provision for such people, and in certain respects, for instance as regards the point of "not genuinely seeking work" which is dealt with by Clause 4, and in various other Clauses of the Bill there is an effort to meet that difficulty in a considerable degree; but it is not sufficient. I do lay down most definitely this position, that whatever it may cost, the Government, and the country as a whole, are bound to find not merely sufficient for existence, but sufficient to give something like a livelihood for those people all over the country. I quite agree that as regards an hon. Member who makes his maiden speech, as an hon. Member on the opposite side of the House did this afternoon, we have to make allowances, and I am not going to make a special reference to that hon. Member, but I did feel the phrase that this Bill is really a Bill for the stabilisation of idleness. I am confident that that hon. Member, or any hon. Member of this House, can see the stabilisation of idleness among those who are considered to be affluent and influential. "The stabilisation of idleness" is a phrase which ought not to be used in the face of those who are suffering as some of our people are to-day.
It is not so long since it was very freely recognised that some provision of this kind had to be made. The House will remember the wonderful figures which we got from the hon. Member for West Nottingham which illustrate that fact—I mean the figures of 29s. and 25s. which were given in the little interlude which occurred with the hon. Member who expressed the Conservative position to-day. That was at the time of demobilisation, and it included industrialists as well as ex-soldiers. These figures point to the fact that if something, and something very substantial, had not been done, this country was in for something in the way of a realistic revolution. That was the situation which led to this scheme, and it is a poor contribution to the solution of the question to talk, as some hon. Members have done, about the deterioration of the people. The deterioration has not been caused by the people getting this money. It has been caused by the people not getting work. We often hear words quoted to the effect that the Prince of Darkness has always something for idle hands to do; but there are idle people who do not need to trouble about work, and who have plenty of money to keep things going. That is the situation in which we are now asked to think about the terrible danger involved in working-class people getting a few shillings in order to eke out an existence.
The fact is that we have become so familiarised with this kind of business— there have been something like 26 Acts of Parliament dealing with this matter— that Members have become hardened, and it is necessary to emphasise, as an awful prospect and a terrible tragedy, the idea of working people being able to get something for nothing. But hon. Members must know from their own constituencies, as I know from my constituency, the truth of the figure quoted earlier in this Debate by the hon. Member for Nottingham, that 87½ per cent. of those who are finding work are doing so by their own energies, or with the co-operation of their trade unions. The duty of the Government is to declare frankly and freely responsibility for a situation which seems to puzzle all three parties, and to meet the necessity of finding the requisite work. I do not lay any stress upon the question of insurance; it should be done out of the Treasury of our country, out of those vast financial resources which the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) mentioned in that most humanising speech, which brought every one of us to realise the absolutely farcical nature of the kind of stuff served up in the House of Commons by way of criticism of all procedure of this kind. The vast resources are there, and it is a question of our determination to see that they are made available for the provision of work.
It is said that it is dangerous to have people drifting along in this way. We all know that we have industries which are making mints of money, even in the times through which we are passing, and that the outcome, as far as employment is concerned, is a mere bagatelle. We know that large sums of money are passing freely in gambling and betting and that there is no employment involved. Where are the parties in this House who are prepared to face these issues? These are some of the formidable barriers which stand in the way of all three parties, and I do not see much prospect of this Labour Government or this Labour party facing them either. Wastage is taking place undoubtedly, and there is a general responsibility for that wastage. We have to face deviations from the path of rectitude by members of our great human family circle, because of what is called deterioration or demoralisation and the strength of Britain must be manifested in the defence of the hearts and homes of our people. It was His Majesty who said that the glory of the Empire was set in the hearts and homes of the people. You are breaking hearts, you are shattering homes, you are insulting members of that human brotherhood when you talk about this question as a question of dole or charity or demoralisation. But you must deal with the situation, and I say to the Labour Government that it is their duty to take action.
I know that officialism is a formidable barrier, but we are not going to blame officialism. We must lay the responsibility on the Government. The former Minister of Labour in 1924 had some difficulty with regard to one or two Amendments and he pleaded with us not to press them unduly, because he did not know whether he could manage to get his Measure through or not, and so some Members of the party gave way in order to meet his difficulty. But in my view it ought to have been the responsibility of the Labour Government to say, whether they were opposed by Liberal or by Tory forces, that it was the bounden duty of the Government to defend the people. About 14s. out of every ÂŁ of Government expenditure goes for past or prospective wars. We can find the money for that, and we talk about it as the defence of the Empire. The thing is absurd when you have homes devastated and people stricken with poverty and you only give them a little pittance as something to enable them to carry on. make our political business real. We have to make the people feel that there is something higher and more majestic than the partisanship which binds us together here and brings us into the same Lobbies. There is a duty to be done to these people and we have a splendid opportunity now in this Government and every man and woman on that Front Bench ought to listen to the heartfelt appeals which are being made to them from day to day. Do not let us say that there is danger in giving too much. We could not give too much on figures such as we have heard suggested in connection with this Bill and the previous Measure. You must of necessity meet the clamant demands of humanity, and you must find the defences for those people in their agony. You must give them the evidence that you are actually with them, that you are grappling with their difficulties, and that while you cannot for the time being find the requisite work for them, you are prepared to say, We shall see that you are safeguarded, that you will have some prospect of the better days that are coming, and here is the tangible evidence of our sincerity and of our determination to succour you in the hour of your distress.
I have listened to the speeches in this Debate with very great interest, and I think it would not be out of place on my part if I were to remind the House that we are discussing a Bill on unemployment insurance. The right hon. Lady the Minister of Labour introduced the Bill in a very lucid manner, if I may be permitted to add my congratulations. I think that everyone in the House at the end of her speech was very much more enlightened as to what the intentions of the Government really are, and for that we are grateful. I listened with great interest to the speech of the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), who denounced the Bill in a very effective way. I think his criticism of the Bill found supporters in almost every part of the House, but we were rather astonished, after he had apparently, to his own satisfaction at all events, demolished the Bill, when he announced his intention of voting for the Second Reading. He gave us a dissertation on principles that was most enlightening and instructive, and I gathered from it that there are various kinds of principles. There are those principles that are kept pure and unsullied on the heights, which I presume are his own principles, and there are those of another kind that live in the valley and are subject to rapid deterioration in the realms of prosperity, such as those on the benches opposite.
I did not find in any one of the speeches to which I have listened any reason why this Bill has been introduced. I did not gather it from the right hon. Lady herself. It is simply a Bill that is presented to the House, but I am quite unaware why. There may be a reason for it, and there probably is, but as far as we have gone at present it simply means that each Government has to present an Unemployment Insurance Bill, and this is the present Government's Bill. The first thing to which I strongly object is the bringing of children of 15 into the Bill at all, and I think it is difficult to find any justification for this change. The objections are many and varied, and I gather that the sole reason for bringing children of 15 into the Bill at all is in order to make a profit out of them. There is no other reason, for the children are going to get no benefit themselves. There is no unemployment among children— [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"]—other than the ordinary small unemployment that may be caused by a child changing its occupation. I am not making a statement without the absolute authority of the Ministry of Labour.
Here is the position of the juvenile labour market at present. The Ministry of Labour submitted to the National Advisory Council for Juvenile Employment a table which shows that the juvenile posts available, according to the 1927 level, were 2,092,000, and at the age of 15, if the school-leaving age is raised to 15, as is proposed, there will be a shortage of juvenile labour in every year for the next 10 years. That shortage will vary from 373,000 in the present year to 762,000 in the year 1934, continuing, with fluctuations, until the year 1940, when the shortage will still be one of 547,000. Can anyone say there is any justification for bringing children into this Bill at all, other than to make money out of the? There is, of course, a small percentage of unemployment among children. They change about from one occupation to another, but it is an infinitesimal percentage and hardly worth considering, and to suggest, as this Bill does by implication, that there is a juvenile unemployment problem is to mislead everyone who reads the Bill. The problem is not to find work for juveniles, but to find juveniles to fill the posts. That is the position to-day, but we are in the midst of a very bad period in regard to employment. Trade is bad, and we all know—we are continually told so by the Lord Privy Seal—that our exports are down to 80 per cent. of the pre-War level. We hope— although I think the Government do not hope, judging from their financial statements—that trade will improve, and if it does improve, it means that there will be still more posts open for juveniles, but the juveniles do not expand. Trade may expand, posts may expand, but there can be no expansion of the juveniles.
Again, on the same portion of the Bill, it seems to me that there is something very repugnant to the spirit of independence and common sense in bringing in children of 15 years as insured workers. They will have to go all through the formula that is necessary to visit the Employment Exchanges to become insured workers, and I do not think that is going to do them any good. The various reports that have dealt with this aspect of the question say that it is demoralising that a child should be led to look upon the Employment Exchanges as places where they go to get money when they are out of work. I quite agree. I think it is the Blanesburgh Report, of which the right hon. Lady is a signatory, which says that such a condition of things must be demoralising, and everyone will agree that there is a great risk of demoralisation once you accustom a child of 15 to go to these places. The Employment Exchanges undoubtedly perform a very great and necessary service to the State, and we all agree that they are conducted in the best possible manner in the circumstances, but among the millions who frequent the Exchanges, there must always be a residuum of permanently unemployed and of unemployable. Since they are more likely than any other class to be frequenting the Employment Exchanges, surely there is great danger that the children will come into contact with them more frequently than they will come into contact with that better class of labour that goes to the Exchanges, gets a job, and goes away again. I submit, in accordance with the Blanesburgh Report, that there is a great risk of demoralisation attaching to the children trotting to the Employment Exchanges, about which no parent will be quite happy in his mind.
I understood the hon. Member to say that there would be a shortage of children, but, if so, there would be none out of work, and none, therefore, would have to go to the Employment Exchange.
They would have to go there to register themselves as insured workers, whether they were in or out of work, and that is all I mean. I have another objection. By making the insurable age 15, we are erecting a barrier to the raising of the school age. I am not alone in that opinion, because many education authorities have expressed the same view. I do not see how you are going to raise the age to 16 if you have all the children enrolled as insured workers at 15. Again, I object to them being brought into the Bill on account of the character of children at that age. One can hardly expect children of 15 to have that tenacity of purpose and stability of character which we hope that they will attain in later years. The child is much more likely to get sick of his job and to change his occupation than the adult. Every child goes to work or into business with great glee, but it is observable that, after he has been there for a comparatively short time, he begins to feel the collar, and it becomes irksome. After all, work is a habit, and we have to cultivate it. What are the Government going to do? They are going to keep the child at school until he is 15, and credit him with 20 insurance stamps, so that, when the child leaves school and goes into a job, he has to accumulate only another 10 stamps to entitle him, if he cannot get a job, to insurance benefit until he is 18. Is that a condition of things which gives the right hon. Lady pleasure?
Turning to another part of the Bill, that concerning the test of not genuinely seeking work, I see no reason for altering the present state of affairs since this is an insurance Bill. If it were not an insurance Bill, the whole position would be different, but, as it is an insurance Bill, I can see no reason for making the alteration. Under the present system, it is inevitable that there should be cases where the insured worker is suspected of not genuinely seeking work. There have been many cases. Last year, there were 895,000 cases of those who were suspected of not genuinely seeking work which were referred to the chief insurance officer at Kew. This officer allowed only 274,000 of these cases, disallowing no less than 621,000. There is an appeal from the insurance officer to the court of referees, and no less than 394,000 of these cases did not bother about it any more. They did not take the trouble to appeal, and, since judgment goes by default, we can assume that these people were really guilty of not genuinely seeking work.
May I ask if the hon. Gentleman is referring to these 300,000 compatriots of his as wastrels?
I did not make any statement about what they were. I simply stated the fact that 394,000 did not take their case any further, and my assumption is that, since judgment goes by default, they were satisfied to remain under that judgment.
They may not have had the right to appeal.
Cases to the number of 227,000 did appeal, and only 86,000 were allowed.
The right of appeal is only permitted when it is accompanied by a trade union representative, and in hundreds of thousands of cases there is no right of appeal, so that there is no reason to say that they are not genuinely seeking work.
I am only quoting from the evidence of the Morris Committee. I was not present at these appeals any more than the hon. Gentleman opposite.
It is in legislation.
There is no doubt that, in regard to this test, the alterations in the present Bill are designed to do away with the thing altogether. I cannot see how the local insurance officer is going to take upon himself the duties which are imposed on him under this Bill and carry them out satisfactorily. It is an impossibility; the machinery will not stand it, and you are bound to have a breakdown. The natural result will be that the insurance officer will not bother and will let the thing go.
This Bill introduces an entirely new principle into insurance. I have had some experience of insurance, and I have never heard of the onus being put upon the insurance company to prove a. claim against them. When you insure-your house against a fire, you have to prove that the fire has taken place. The company does not have to prove that the fire took place. If a death occurs, the onus is on the relatives to prove the death. Here the thing is the other way round, and the Government are introducing a principle into insurance where the insurance company has to prove. The whole thing is ridiculous and absurd, and is an absolutely upside-down, topsyturvy affair. It may have its merits, but I have not been able to see them. It is certainly not insurance. I began by saying that I could not see any justification for the Bill. I have tried hard to find some justification, but the only justification that I have been able to find is the pledge of the Prime Minister who, in his election speech which was broadcast just before the General Election, definitely promised the electors work first of all, and if not work, maintenance. I can only presume that this Bill is intended to carry out that pledge, although a great many of the right hon. Gentleman's followers do not think so, and he has to placate them by saying that this is only an instalment.
The right hon. Gentleman made it quite clear that it was a bargain. He was not going to do it for nothing; he was not going to do it unless he was put into office. His promise was the most important promise on the ladder by which he climbed on to the Front Bench. There is nothing wrong in political leaders making promises; they are quite a usual thing, and I do not quarrel with the practice. It is perfectly legitimate, and it would be impossible to carry on our political life without the leaders informing the country of their programme, and what they promised to do for the improvement of the country. I submit, however, that there are limits which ought to be observed when they are making their promises. Members of the House are held down very strictly by the law. The Corrupt Practices Act makes it impossible for a candidate to offer to any elector a. monetary consideration in return for his vote, and if you do not obey that law you get chucked out, but, so far, no law has been devised making it culpable for the leader of a party to obtain the votes of large sections of the community by such an offer as is contained in this Bill, which, after all, is a monetary consideration. The presentation of this Bill to Parliament is an honest endeavour on the part of the right hon. Gentleman to carry out his pledge to the electors—I am a little doubtful whether the word "honest" is not misplaced, but there it is.
The right hon. Gentleman's offer was a direct appeal to a large number of the electors to vote for his party in return for a monetary advantage. I will prove that. I do not think the country has realised the number of people involved in this offer. It is believed by those fortunate people who do not have to examine into the details of the unemployed, it is the average man's idea, that there are about 1,200,000 unemployed; but I want to point out that 4,000,000 separate individuals comprise the unemployed in one year. It is not only one lot of 1,200,000 people who are unemployed; there are 4,000,000 altogether during the year, and last year 10,000,000 claims and renewal claims for unemployment insurance benefit were received. Further, there were no less than 50,000,000—the figures are colossal—separate weekly payments to the electors in this country; and the right hon. Gentleman's promise to the recipients of those 50,000,000 payments was: "You vote for me, and I will stick to you and get you increased unemployment insurance benefit." In these circumstances I do not wonder that the right hon. Gentleman and his friends are sitting on the Government side of the House. It amazes me that so large a number of our fellow-countrymen withstood this great temptation. It must be a satisfaction to the thinking people of this country that there are so many among this unfortunate class, directly tempted, who withstood that temptation, and evidently placed the good of their country above their own immediate personal advantage.
I find it very difficult not to follow the speech to which we have just listened. From beginning to end it was so full of points which anyone on this side could take up and score off so effectively that the temptation to follow that speech in detail is very great. I will only say this. If the hon. Member is so ignorant as to the need for this Bill and so ignorant as to the machinery of the present Act, I can make no better suggestion than that one night a week he should go to his own constituency and there offer to meet the unemployed in his constituency who are suffering under the present administration of the Unemployment Insurance Act. He would find coming to him every week men as decent, as full of the spirit of service, as willing, as eager, as any man or woman of his acquaintance, who, under the terms of the existing Act, and its administration, are being denied the benefit of unemployment insurance to which they ought to be entitled. He would also discover that under the present administration there are many unemployed persons who, for quite trifling alleged misdemeanours, are being denied unemployment benefit for six weeks. He would also discover that there is a waiting period of six days—which, again, means extraordinary suffering for insured men and their families—before they can get unemployment benefit.
I am quite aware of all the hon. Member has said up to the present time.
Then I can only say this, that if my hon. Friend is aware of these things and then comes to this House and says there is no necessity for a Bill to amend the present Unemployment Insurance Act, he has not the benefit of being ignorant, as I suggested just now, but he is callous in face of the needs of the unemployed. I will refer to one or two points in his extraordinary speech, and, incidentally, I make this suggestion: If the opponents of the hon. Member in his constituency want to make sure that he will not be returned at the next General Election, they can do nothing better than distribute throughout his constituency the speech he has just delivered. The hon. Member suggested that the very fact that thousands of men had not appealed against the decision proved that they were not genuinely seeking work and they were satisfied with that decision. In that statement he showed that he is ignorant of the present law, because only a limited number are able to make such an appeal. In his concluding words he suggested that our party were guilty of bribery because we had said to the electors that if Labour were returned decent maintenance would be allowed to the unemployed. Our retort is this: The party opposite have again and again gone to the country with a claim for a lower Income Tax for the wealthier classes, with suggestions for the safeguarding of this industry and that, and with proposals for derating—vast contributions to the employers at the expense of the people; and proposals of that kind have been responsible for the fact that the party opposite are supported by certain classes of the community. I will refrain from following any further the speech of the hon. Member opposite.
I think the supreme fact which we have to keep in mind during this Debate is that through the winter months there are likely to remain 1,000,000 unemployed, indeed the Minister of Labour has stated that the number of unemployed is likely to increase to 1,300,000, and that for some months at any rate the total will not be reduced below 1,000,000.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) said that the Government were dealing with this problem at the wrong end, and that it would be better to concentrate on the provision of work instead of on the provision of maintenance. I do not imagine that there are many Members of this House who will disagree with that statement. The important point is the method of making provision. Right hon. Gentlemen opposite have suggested great schemes of road making and other public works, but the difference between us is that we wish the revenues of this country to be utilised to provide the first needs of the people. There are needs which are much more important than roads, and they are food, clothing, and furniture, which are the essentials of life. In thousands of cases if there is to be an increased demand upon those essentials of life, it can only be achieved by raising the standard of living of the mass of the people. It is infinitely better that the wealth of this country should be redistributed in a way which will ensure that there will be less to spend upon speculation and luxury and more to spend upon the needs of life by financing the working classes of this country. That is the line which we suggest for dealing with the problem of unemployment.
We have to face the fact that 1,000,000 unemployed are likely to remain on the register during the coming winter months. Consequently, we turn our immediate attention, not to schemes of work which are not before us, but to the actual maintenance of the unemployed themselves. This Bill, to our very great regret, makes no change in the scale which goes to the adult unemployed. The unemployed man will continue to receive a benefit of 17s. per week while an unemployed woman will receive 15s. per week. I do not know how anyone can realise what those figures mean without being ashamed of Membership of this House which is responsible for imposing upon the unemployed person a condition of semi-starvation.
9.0 p.m.
The Minister of Labour told us that more money is not available, but we reply by saying that it is the first and not the last obligation of the Government to meet this condition of the unemployed. These men and women are not responsible for their condition. It is Parliament that is responsible. These people are the victims of a social system which has been maintained by this House. Unemployment has been aggravated by social wrongs, and wrong economic and wrong foreign policies for which right hon. Gentlemen belonging to the Conservative and the Liberal parties are responsible. These policies have caused thousands of men and women to be unemployed, and the community which condemns them to unemployment is under an absolute moral obligation to see that they shall not suffer semi-starvation.
When we are told that the resources are not available we look at some of the present methods by which the money of the State is expended. I say without hesitation that if this House cannot vote an additional sum to meet the needs of the unemployed men and women, then it should at once decide that it will not vote another halfpenny to pay interest on the wealth that was raised to fight the War while the unemployed are left in this condition of semi-starvation. It is absolutely indecent that we should have to-day the standard of luxury which exists among certain sections of the community if at the other end of the scale the unemployed man is not receiving 20s., and the unemployed woman 18s. per week, while they are out of work.
I urge the Minister of Labour and the Members of the Government with all the force I can to realise the strength of feeling which there is behind this demand in the ranks of their own party. I want them to realise that we require a policy which will fulfil the pledges that we honestly gave at the General Election. I want the Government to give us a lead in this matter, because we would much rather be enthusiastically backing them up than indulging in criticism. We are certain that, if the Government would be bold and courageous in this matter, they need not fear the opposition of the Conservative party. The Government need not be afraid of the Conservative party or the Liberal party in this House. Those parties may talk of their opposition, but they dare not face the people of this country upon an issue of that kind. I agree with the hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Scrymgeour) when he said that a policy of courage on the part of the Government would pay in this matter. I believe that if that policy were pursued, the opposition would absolutely disappear.
I wish to allude to two other points. My first point is in reference to the Clause dealing with not genuinely seeking work. If I followed the speech of the Minister of Labour rightly, she said that the new Clause dealing with this point throws upon the Employment Exchanges the responsibility of proof. I would respectfully suggest that under Sub-section (2) of Clause 4, the burden of proof still remains upon the claimant. The words of the Clause are:
I want to say very strongly indeed that there is no possible test which can be applied to a man or woman who is unemployed, as to whether they are genuine or not, except the simple test that they have been offered a job of a suitable nature and have rejected that job. If the right hon. Lady says that that is impossible because the Employment Exchanges at present do not handle many of the jobs, what on earth is there to prevent a Clause of that nature from applying to the offer of a job in any other way also—through the trade union or through employers outside? If the Employment Exchange can prove that a man or woman has been offered work, whether through the Exchange, or through a trade union, or through another employer, and has rejected that suitable work, then the Employment Exchange has the right to say that that man or woman is not genuinely seeking work. But, unless work has actually been refused in those circumstances, I say it is impossible to describe the person as not genuinely seeking work.
Perhaps the right hon. Lady will correct me if I am wrong, because I am exceedingly anxious to be fair, but so far as I can gather from reading this Bill, even the benefits which are included in the Bill do not come into operation until the 13th March next year. If I am wrong in that, perhaps the right hon. Lady will correct me.
That is quite right.
Honestly, I put it to the House that that is a matter of the very gravest disappointment.
My hon. Friend will notice, and this is a rather important point, that there is a peculiarly difficult paragraph for anyone to under- stand about the six weeks pre-dating of the claims. I have to make provision by which claims can slide over from one set of conditions to another, and for that purpose I have taken the six weeks before the 13th March rather than making it run on for six weeks after the 13th March.
If I have followed that statement, and I am anxious to be fair, it means that it will be the beginning of February before the new applications occur. I appreciate the difficulties of this matter, but I do put the point very strongly indeed that we are now faced with these winter months, and it is during these winter months that the assistance which this Measure will provide is so absolutely essential to the homes of the unemployed. I ask the Government again to consider whether there is a possibility of giving the benefits which come under this scheme from the 1st January, or the 13th January, or the earliest date possible, so that there may not be a delay until the 13th March before these changes come into operation.
Finally, I hope that the expressions of opinion which have been given during this Second Heading Debate will lead the Government to reconsider their present attitude on the points which we have raised during the Debate. I hope that our Chancellor of the Exchequer will appreciate that, for this need more than any other, we are looking to him to carry out a Budget policy which will do something to re-distribute the unearned income of the idle class in the community, so that justice may be done to the unemployed people at the other end of the scale. If the speeches which have been made will do anything to strengthen that pressure upon our Government, then the Second Reading Debate will not have been in vain.
The hon. Member who has just spoken will perhaps forgive me if I do not immediately follow him in the arguments that he has presented to the House, though perhaps a little later I may return to some of the points that he has raised. I wish to refer to one or two points which seem to me to be of substance, and in so doing I am trying to regard this Bill from the point of view of the unemployed, in so far as it is possible for any man who has not been unemployed himself to put himself in their position. I will give an undertaking that in the course of my remarks I shall not make any use of the word "pledge"—[HON. MEMBERS: "Thank you!"] I think that this Debate has already proceeded far enough' for us to see that this Bill is not received with enthusiasm in any quarter of the House, and it is difficult for us to see how it could be so received, because we, sitting in this House, cannot dismiss from our minds the fact that each succeeding Insurance Bill as it comes before us for discussion is another link in the accumulation of evidence that we—I do not say this party or that party, but that we in this House have failed to meet the difficulties which have resulted in so much unemployment in this country. I propose to vote for the Second Reading of this Bill, and it will be my ambition, if I have an opportunity of taking part in the subsequent stages of the Bill, to try to make some contribution towards improving it so that it may meet some of the urgent necessities of the case.
The first point to which I desire to refer is the provision in Clause 1 as to the lowering of the age for entering into insurance. I do so because when, in 1924, it was proposed to reduce the age to 14, I was one of those who opposed that proposal, and I opposed it on purely educational grounds. We felt that it would be a great mistake from the point of view of education to stereotype in the public mind the idea that at the age of 14 our children should be subjects for the Ministry of Labour, for employment and not for education. I have read with great care the evidence of the Report of the National Advisory Council of Juvenile Employment Committees, and I agree now with the recommendations of the majority of that body. Half the claim which has been in debate between the Board of Education and the Ministry of Labour has been won definitely for the Board of Education by the raising of the school age. I should not have been able to support the Clause as drafted had it not been drafted in such a way that a very strong claim has been marked out for the Board of Education to the remainder of the debatable ground if and when it should be found practicable to raise the school-leaving age beyond 15. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Kelvingrove (Major Elliot) discussing these proposals, drew a sad picture of children going to the Employment Exchanges, and the experiences that they would undergo on making visits there for registration and for other purposes. I sincerely hope that under these proposals it will not be necessary for any large number of children to make visits at all to the Employment Exchanges as such. I hope they will go to the Juvenile Employment Exchanges, where they will get the best available advice on the choice of occupations and other matters, which they will find it very difficult to get elsewhere.
Anyone would have thought, listening to the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Kelvingrove, that the children who are to go to the Employment Exchanges were at present living sequestered, quiet and peaceful lives, with their careers definitely marked out for them. What, in fact, is the alternative to what the Government are putting before us? Where are these children now? In many cases they are seeking for employment, taking up their position on stands outside works—a most deplorable position for them to be in. It is not only an undesirable contact but it actually leads to unemployment. This system creates unemployment amongst juveniles, because if there are a number of places where they may congregate for the purpose of obtaining employment, and there are different rates of pay at different places where they may attend, there is a great tendency for them to become unemployed and attached to those industries where the rates of pay are higher, than to become employed by making application and attaching themselves to an industry where the rates are somewhat lower, so that the present system of engaging juvenile labour is a definite cause of unemployment amongst juveniles.
That is why I welcome this Clause, not altogether for what is in it but for what it implies, that there will be an attempt to develop the unemployment centres, and there will be some organised attempt to control the industrial and educational life of children over the ages of 15 to 17. The hon. Member above the Gangway did not seem to realise that there is a juvenile employment problem even if there were no unemployed juveniles at all, and a most important problem. If it is neglected it leads in the course of time to the creation of unemployment through people having been put into wrong occupations for which they are unsuited. This Clause, further, if it is passed in anything like its present form, will put an end to a very deplorable practice which has been going on on a very considerable scale from one end of the country to the other of engaging children at the age of 14 and turning them out again at 16. I find no difficulty at all in supporting and voting for the Clause.
I welcome very cordially the proposal that benefit shall be paid to unemployed persons until the point at which they are definitely proved not to be entitled to it. It comes in Clause 6 (10) and is a very valuable contribution, because no one can measure the anxiety and misery that has been undergone by those who go to the Employment Exchange to draw their benefit and are told it is not there for them, that their papers have gone to London, or some other process is going on and they do not know when they are going to get it or if they are going to get it at all. It frequently happens on a Friday, and for the best part of a week they have to make some sort of bargain with the guardians, who are not always easy to deal with. I welcome this administrative change, which will be of very great benefit to a large number of individuals.
Earlier in the evening we had a very interesting speech from the hon. Member for West Nottingham (Mr. Hayday), who speaks with very great experience and knowledge on this subject. He expressed a preference for the payment of benefit in a particular form. He referred to the reduction of the waiting period from six days to three. I refer to it because, when the Bill of 1924 was before the House it was an Amendment put down in the name of the late Mr. Trevelyan Thomson, myself and a Scottish Member that brought about that change. I will associate myself with what was said by the hon. Member to this extent, that if this is the amount that is available to be distributed, it can hardly be better distributed than by reducing the waiting period. If we were in normal times, and employment was reasonably good, it would not matter to a man so much whether he was without benefit for six days or not if he had been in employment for a long time and he had his resources and his household in perfect working order, but in these days, when his resources by successive winters of unemployment have been reduced to the barest limits, a waiting period of six days is a very serious thing. It might very well be considered whether or not it might be possible to spend some of the money in giving benefit in that way because it would go where it is in fact most needed.
I now wish to offer one or two observations on Clause 4 which, as has already been revealed, has excited the greatest amount of attention in the Debate. In so far as the Clause, by putting the onus of proof upon the machinery of the Ministry of Labour, removes the implied stigma which exists in the present administration that a vast number of people are workshy and are not genuinely seeking work, I accept it without any reservation whatever. I am not able, like the hon. Member for West Nottingham, to reduce my attitude on this point to figures and decimals and to say that 99½ per cent. of the people who are unemployed are genuinely seeking work all the time, but from actual contact, and from my own personal observation, I should like to put it on record that, whether it is 99½ or some other figure of a like order, the majority of them are genuinely seeking work. I will go further than the hon. Member in one respect. I am convinced that, even if the benefits were larger than they are at the moment, they would still go on looking for work. I will not attempt to say that there are not a certain number who are workshy, and they are to be found, I regret to say, among the younger members of the community, who have never had an opportunity, but their numbers are so small that they may be almost neglected and if the Clause—one gathers that it is so from the amount of money that will be required to meet the additional benefit—means that the existing procedure, which has been criticised from many different quarters and has been found wanting by the majority report of Sir Harold Morris's Committee, is to be rectified I welcome it on those grounds.
I realise that a very great deal of thought and consideration must have been given by the framers of that Clause before they arrived at the particular words which are embodied in it. They have had a most terrible handicap, for it was pointed to by the Blanesburgh Committee and by the Committee of Sir H. Morris and his colleagues as being insoluble. You cannot find any form of words which can define an attitude of mind. That is what the framers of this Bill have been confronted with. With regard to the form of words, I think if trade were active and the volume of unemployment were comparatively small those words and phrases might work pretty well. It may be that they are to be the last word on this particular matter, but where we find the very great difficulty is that, while these phrases and this formula may work pretty well in some parts of the country, they may be unworkable in others. I do not know whether there is any Member of this House who will say that his constituency is prosperous. This Clause and these regulations might work very well, for example, in Coventry, but I have the gravest doubts when I come to consider their application to places like the Merseyside, Clydeside and other places on the North-East of England.
This is not the occasion on which to try to dissect these sentences, but I conceive—and many other Members have some apprehension about it—that as this Clause is drafted there may easily spring up an administration which would have practically the same results as that from which we have been suffering in recent years. I suggest that this particular Clause must be subjected to a good deal of thought and scrutiny and that many points will have to be raised in the Committee stage of the Bill. It would propose to institute two new conditions, very difficult to define, namely, the condition of negligence and the condition of diligence. As soon as I begin to apply that to the actual situation I see very great difficulties arising. I apply it to my own constituency where, as an illustration of this argument, I often see a congregation of men outside the works. They start to come down an hour before the appointed time and congregate there in all weathers without the slightest protection. At the end of about an hour's waiting the foreman or some other man may come out of the works and select perhaps a dozen or 20 or perhaps 40 men —and perhaps none at all. At the end of that hour's waiting, sometimes in very inclement weather, all that may happen is that the door of the works will close as an intimation that there is nothing doing. That sort of situation is really the modern counterpart of the ancient slave market, and it is a thing which is unnecessary in our modern industrial organisation, and it should be done away with.
We get conditions of that sort to be applied, to a Clause such as this: so that they may find the means whereby we can do away with what I have described, and at the same time enable some test of work in some form to be applied—and there is general agreement on this—without injustice to the individual or to the contributor. I know that a great deal has been done, but at the moment we are making the worse of two systems. A certain amount of work is being distributed by the Exchanges. A number of employers have agreed to place all their engagements through the agency of the Employment Exchanges. That creates dissatisfaction among those who do not get the work. They see it given at the Exchanges, but some of them cannot get it. I think that that matter should receive very careful consideration.
I observe that this Bill has been subjected to criticism on the ground that the money required for the transitional period is to be paid straight by the Exchequer. I do not find any difficulty in taking up my line of action on that particular point, when I consider the alternatives. One alternative would mean to make the poor pay for the poor, as in those areas where there is a great deal of chronic unemployment. That is the only other alternative, excepting the alternative which is represented in this House in the person of the Lord Privy Seal. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), in his very powerful speech, pointed out, as other Members who have followed him have done, that we must not abandon hope, in spite of the prognostications of the Government Actuary that there will be something like 1,250,000 unemployed for the next two years. We ought not to abandon hope that some greater energy than that which we have yet seen may be put forward for the provision of work, for that is the only satisfactory solution of this problem.
On the first occasion on which I have the honour of addressing the House I can assure hon. Members that I find it comparable to another experience of my life, which was my first solo flight in an aeroplane. The nerve strain is almost as great. I am, spurred on by the knowledge and realisation of one fact—the extraordinary contrast between the real principles of insurance and the real principles which are set forth in this Bill. I think that most hon. Members understand that the principle of insurance is one wherein a large number of people contribute a certain sum periodically, and from the pool of that sum benefits are paid out to a small number. The benefits and the contributions are calculated on an actuarial basis, are based on the law of averages as to how much can be paid out from that particular pool. That is the basic principle of insurance, and to describe as insurance a system wherein you are going to pledge £8,000,000 from an Exchequer grant to a fund which is already bankrupt to the extent of £40,000,000, is a prostitution of the principles of insurance. Call it, if you like, an unemployment subsidy and work it out on that basis, but do not mix up the principle of insurance with the Bill which is now put before the House.
Perhaps there may come a time to which we all look forward—I am quite convinced Members on every side of the House do—when we shall have that ideal of insurance from, the cradle to the grave, which is the ideal aimed at by hon. Members opposite, but that can come about only when industry can bear that particular insurance system. When as an economic unit the three participants in industry—and if you work out this problem, as I expect most hon. Members have done already, you will find that there are in industry three participants, the employé, the employer and the State—are all in a healthy and sound financial position, you will be able to work out your all-in scheme as an economic unit from the cradle to the grave, but at the present time industry cannot bear additional burdens.
I speak as one who, perhaps, contributes his slight quota to industry, in that I work with my brain. Some work with their brains and some work with their hands, but unless we all work together the weekly wage bill at the end of the week will not be found. Industry cannot bear further burdens. There is a saying that it is the last straw that breaks the camel's back. I know that it would be an exaggeration and an inaccuracy to say definitely and positively that this is the straw that breaks the camel's back, but the back is already bending somewhat, and I only ask hon. Members opposite to remember that there will be one particular straw at some future time which will be the straw that breaks the camel's back, and they are putting the straws on pretty fast these days.
The Bill will probably disgust a large section of the community of this country and will probably disgust those whom the hon. Members opposite think it will please. It may be that hon. Members opposite will say that it is quite easy for the shareholders and the taxpayers to bear an additional burden, but there are men in all our works to-day who are wondering and thinking for themselves, and are beginning to realise that there are burdens on their particular industry 'which prevent their wages going up. They are beginning to realise that the soundest way is not to pour out the taxpayers' money but to conserve resources and build up our industries. There is another point in this Bill upon which I should like to touch. It is the Clause dealing with "not genuinely seeking work." I expect that every right hon. Gentleman and every hon. Gentleman here, if he does his duty as a Member of Parliament, which I am sure he endeavours to do, has had many cases in regard to which he does not think of politics and of parties, but thinks only of trying to do some good to a particular man who has to put up a defence under the "not genuinely seeking work" condition.
All of us, I think, realise that the present definition in the Statute is unsatisfactory. But the Government make things very little better for those men by shifting the burden of responsibility from the men to somebody who is employed as a civil servant. It puts an unfair burden on that particular person and is only transferring responsibility instead of defining clearly the conditions. For the genuine seeker it is only just shifting the burden of responsibility. For the taxpayer it is a little worse. I quite realise, as hon. Members opposite realise, that these are men who, although they compose only a very small percentage of the whole, are deliberate shirkers, and it is no use being sentimental and saying they are not when we know they are. [An HON. MEMBER: "We have seen them!"] I have seen them and so have hon. Members, but I am not afraid to say so if some hon. Members may be. This Bill makes it slightly easier for the man who happens to be a slacker.
There are two suggestions which I am going to be so bold as to make to the right hon. Lady the Minister of Labour. One is, that there should be an amendment of the condition—I know that it was dealt with in the Blanesburgh Report—which only allows a man who is a member of a recognised trade union to appeal from the decision of the referees to the umpire. This is an unfair stipulation, because there are a great many men engaged in trades who have not representative trade unions. I shall only quote the one which was mentioned in this House the other day in the course of debate— the fishing industry. Quite recently, in my constituency I had a case of a man who, I am quite convinced, was given a wrong decision, but because he was not a recognised member of a trade union and because a court of referees gave a wrong decision and stood by their wrong decision, he was unable to appeal any further, whereas if he had been a recognised member of a trade union he would have been able to take the case further up the ladder.
The other suggestion which I shall be so bold as to put to the Minister is the question of the disabled soldier in relation to "not genuinely seeking work"; and particularly I ask whether regulations cannot be strengthened whereby a disabled soldier is not penalised when seeking work in respect of a pension he is drawing for the particular disability from which he is suffering. I have here details of a case—and if it will not weary the House I will read an extract from a letter—of a particular man who lost an eye. He says: disabled man, provided he is able to do the same work, should receive the same pay as any fit man.
There is one Clause which, so far as hon. Members on this side are concerned, is regarded as nothing less than deplorable. I refer to Clause 11, which deals with juveniles. My experience of political life is comparatively short compared with that of many hon. and right hon. Members, but I have realised from experience that there is one very great tactical advantage in being able to do what is known as sitting on the fence. In this particular Bill we are able to do that; we are able to sit on the fence and attack the Government from either side as regards this question of juveniles. Take, first, the mixing up of the youth of this country with the Employment Exchanges. I am sure that hon. and right hon. Members on both sides of the House must deplore the terrible and tragic queues of unemployed, which we have all seen and which we have all tried to do our best to remedy, even though we may differ as to our methods. If our youths and young men are to suffer the same demoralisation which has been suffered by the poor men who have tried to get jobs for years, and cannot get them, they will at a very early period in their careers get tinged with that hopeless and tragical mental outlook, that work is not for them in this life and that they have to make the best of the conditions as they find them. If they have to come on to the unemployment register with our grown-up adults, they will suffer.
From the other side of the fence, there is the criticism that the Government have admitted that they hope to get ÂŁ500,000 by bringing these juveniles into the insurance scheme. From both points of view, from the point of view of the demoralisation of youth and from the point of view of the spoliation of youth the Government have nothing to their credit in this part of the Bill. Most of us who have studied history have heard of the old privateer days, when ships sailed under false colours. The Government are sailing under very false colours in this Bill. We ask them whether they are willing to hoist the Jolly Roger and to say that this is a Socialist Measure for putting certain unemployed on a non-contributory basis. There are 30 hon. Members opposite who are asking the Government, openly, to hoist the Jolly Roger, and go in with them. We say also: "Hoist the Jolly Roger, and go in with them!" and we shall not be afraid of what the country will say if that is to be the case.
I congratulate the hon. and gallant Member on his maiden speech. I know what it is to go through the ordeal of a maiden speech in this House. As a matter of fact, this is only one of my honeymoon speeches; therefore, I am still only in a little less degree suffering from the same ordeal as the hon. and gallant Member. The hon. and gallant Member has made an excellent speech from the point of view of oratory, but I cannot say that I agree with his observations from the point of view of economics or politics. The speech to which I would like to devote attention, and, incidentally, it will cover some of the remarks of the hon. and gallant Member, is that of the hon. and gallant Member for Kelvingrove (Major Elliot). That speech glistened with gems which demand a little analysis. The hon. and gallant Member for Kelvingrove dealt, from his point of view, with the great problem which confronts us. It is a problem not only of puberty but of adolescence and grown-up manhood, and a problem also of old age, and we are confronted with the tragedy of physical deterioration and of mental demoralisation which is happening day by day and month by month owing to unemployment.
Let me take a point which the hon. and gallant Member for Kelvingrove made with regard to the actuarial estimates. The hon. and gallant Member represents the constituency which includes my alma mater, a great university. He said that our actuarial estimates were based on an estimate of a permanent number of unemployed in this country amounting to 1,200,000, and he blamed the Government for doing; that. The right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) disagreed with him, and said that the Government were estimating on a period of prosperity. The hon. and gallant Member for Kelvingrove based his argument on the statement that the Government have estimated for the next two or three years on the basis of 1,200,000 persons unemployed. It is due to the Government to say that it is better to have an over-estimate than an underestimate, and that they are making provision on what they consider to be a careful estimate.
The next gem from the hon. and gallant Member was an accusation or an insinuation, which he made in answer to the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton), who informed him that we did not know the contents of the Bill until it was actually in our hands in the Vote Office. The hon. and gallant Member said that negative knowledge was as useful as positive knowledge. That is a great gem for the unemployed. When they do not know where work is, that knowledge is as useful as if they knew where work is to be found. That is the sort of logic we get from the university precincts. The hor and gallant Member continued in a way which seemed to be mocking and sneering at the unemployed who are down. This Casabianca nails his colours to the shaky mast of the charred hulk of Toryism, and cries out, in effect: "Take this Bill back. Let us do all we can to prevent increased benefit being given to the unemployed; force them to live on a miserable pittance. Let us say that they are saturated with the policy of malingering. We think that every man who is unemployed is a potential malingerer." A great slander on most of the unemployed.
He also asked why certain workers were outside the Act and why the Government had not brought them within the Act. The question put to him was why did not his Government bring them within the Act, and he made a remark about the Exchequer grant, as though it were a commonplace of unemployment uninsurance which was brought in by Liberal and Tory Governments. There was one remark of the hon. and gallant Member which was particularly important. He attacked our sincerity. I am one of the Members who signed the Amendment suggesting that the grant to the unemployed should be increased, and I can assure the hon. and gallant Member that he is quite wrong in his view that we regard the Government as insincere because we have done that. Having regard to the feelings which we know exist outside, we think we should do all in our power to get increased unemployment benefit for the unemployed. The hon. and gallant Member gave the House this gem. He said, talk unemployment and you will get unemployment. On that basis, talk money and you will get money. I expect that thought came to the hon. and gallant Member when he was in his bath this morning, and I suppose complete instructions will be issued from Tory headquarters that the new cure for unemployment is to talk work and you will get work.
That is the Lord Privy Seal's motto.
I have never heard the Lord Privy Seal give vent to anything so absurd. I am quoting the remarks of the hon. and gallant Member. He said, talk unemployment and you will get unemployment. On that view, talk work and you will get work.
That is the Lord Privy Seal's policy.
I am glad to hear that it is his policy, but I do not think it is his policy to talk work.
It is not anything else now.
The hon. and gallant Member is a man who cannot see something which he does not wish to see. If he will wait a little the Lord Privy Seal will give him more than he thinks he ought to get. The question one should ask hon. Members opposite is this. They are complaining that this Bill giving increased grants, bringing in the juvenile population and dealing with blind alley occupations, ought not to have been introduced. The point I want to ask them is this: what is their policy? Are they going to leave unemployment alone? Are they going to leave that stigma of not genuinely seeking work alone? What are they going to do? Are they going to say to men that no work is available and at the same time penalise them in every possible way. No Conservative administration of the future will make such a statement, and I suggest to the hon. and gailant Member that the next time he speaks on unemployment he will tell us the real Tory policy in regard to it. It cannot possibly be one of those panaceas which are constantly recurring in the Tory Press. It cannot be that while there is unemployment they are going to do nothing. When a man is unemployed and there is no work available for him, when his home is running short of the necessaries of life and being denuded of its household goods, when he sees his wife, an expectant mother, asking for necessities which cannot be obtained, what is the position of hon. Members opposite? What is their policy when a man has tramped all over the place asking for work and unable to get it, and is accused of not seeking work? Something must be done to give that man a livelihood, and I suggest that the amount of unemployment benefit in the Bill is not sufficient to allow an individual to live.
10.0 p.m.
Although we are not pleased with the Bill, we think the juvenile unemployment proposals are excellent, and that the unemployment benefits should be greater. Although we think that there should be more than a mere modification of the provision in regard to genuinely seeking work and that the onus of proof should be thrown on the administrative authorities, and that the machinery for hearing appeals should be better, we suggest that the Government in bringing forward this Measure are doing something, as a part of their policy towards the amelioration of the lot of the unemployed. Hon. Members opposite who did nothing for five years, although they had a huge majority at their back, ought not to cavil at what is being done in this Bill. They underestimate the intelligence of the electors of this country if they think that they cannot see through the game of obstruction, mean, petty and miserable as it is, and it would be more to the credit of hon. Members opposite if they would help to pass through this beneficent legislation and do something for the people who are right down in the gutter. If they would do that they would show that they have some real feeling in the matter, and are prepared to do something for those people who have seen better times, who know what work is, who have had luxuries, but who through no fault of their own have come down lower and lower in the economic scale.
Although I very much disagree with the interpretation put by the last speaker on the speech made by the hon. and gallant Member for Kelvingrove (Major Elliot), I should like to join with him in congratulating my hon. and gallant Friend behind me the Member for the Isle of Thanet (Captain Balfour) on his maiden speech. We can all agree, I think, that it was an admirable contribution to our Debate. It is now nearly 20 years since the first Unemployment Insurance Bill was introduced in this House, and ever since then we have been getting further and further away from genuine insurance. This Bill is a further divergence still from genuine unemployment insurance. Although there has been a great deal of opposition to the Bill to-day there is certainly one feature common to all of us. There is no division in parties, I believe, in our desire to do our best for the unemployed. We not only long to get rid of unemployment, but we all want to be fair to the unemployed man and woman and see that justice is done. I certainly believe, and most of us believe, that the great proportion of the unemployed are only too anxious to get work if they can have the opportunity.
A significant feature of this Debate is that there is hardly a single wholehearted supporter of this Bill on either side of the House. The Liberal party has criticised it somewhat severely, but I gather from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) that the Liberal party is going to allow it to get a Second Reading. It seems to me that the Liberal party is still hypnotised by that famous pamphlet, "We can conquer unemployment," and their great electoral efforts of a few months ago seem to colour a great part of their speeches. An important section of hon. Members opposite are extremely hostile to the provisions of the Bill; and at that I am not surprised. I think that from their point of view they have a good deal of reason behind them. I profoundly disagree with the kind of criticism levelled against this Bill by the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) and the hon. Member for East Leyton (Mr. Brockway), but I cannot help sympathising a good deal with them. They believe that it is the duty of a Socialist Government to find work or maintenance, and that belief was considerably fortified by the speech which was broadcast by the Prime Minister at the time of the Election, when he practically pledged himself to work or maintenance. The Government has found neither work nor maintenance, and therefore I am not at all surprised at the bitter disappointment felt by a considerable number of hon. Members opposite when they read this Bill. From their point of view this Bill is wholly insufficient, and is a breach of a definite undertaking.
Although, as I have said, I do not agree with the kind of criticism which they have levelled at the Bill, I do say that the Government has produced neither work, nor maintenance, nor genuine insurance. In fact the Bill seems to me to lack imagination and constructive statesmanship, and I shall be very surprised indeed if it finds its way on to the Statute Book without a considerable amount of alteration. We are really witnessing a curious phenomenon during this Debate. Here is a Socialist party the biggest party in the State, owing very largely to the nightmare of unemployment and to the hopes held out that they would be able to deal with it; and yet one of the chief legislative efforts to which they have put their hands is not for the cure of unemployment, but for the provision for vast unemployment in the future. In fact, they have gone out of their way to extend for no less than 36 months, or to prolong for another whole year, the exceptional conditions under which benefit can be received. This really does not look as though they expected to see the figures of unemployment substantially brought down in the near future.
There are certain general principles which I am sorry to see have been largely ignored in this Bill, and I am all the more surpised to find this, on account of those principles having been very carefully laid down in the Blanesburgh Report, which was signed by the right hon. Lady the Minister of Labour. I should like, if I may, to quote a very few sentences from page 29 of that Report, where the Committee sum up what ought to be in an Unemployment Insurance Bill. They say:
I would like to point out to the right hon. Gentleman that the Bill which he supported, and upon which we are working, did exactly the same.
I am coming to that. The hon. Member has not seen the force of my remarks. I referred, of course, to the transitional arrangements dealing with uncovenanted benefit. The right hon. Lady the Minister of Labour signed a Report recommending the extinction of extended benefit, which would have taken place automatically under the 1927 Act, introduced by our party, but in spite of that fact this Bill continues and increases it. Another limb has been grafted on to this Bill which, again, is quite outside the scope of Unemployment Insurance. I refer to the fictitious contributions which are to be credited to juveniles who continue their education over the age of 15. This is merely a repetition and extension of uncovenanted benefit, which has gradually been undermining the principles upon which insurance schemes have been built up. It creates a further risk to the stability of the insurance fund, which already has a vast debt, now over £37,000,000. I say that it is no business of an Unemployment Insurance Bill to promote educational objects. It it quite outside the range of Unemployment Insurance. I, therefore, hope—and I am sure that hon. Members in certain parts of the House below the Gangway, and above the Gangway on the benches be- hind me, will also hope—that this provision will be very seriously considered before the Bill leaves this House.
I am very sorry to see, also, a definite relaxation in the conditions under which benefit can be obtained. I agree with hon. Members opposite that the particular test of "genuinely seeking work" in the Act of 1924 was one which it was almost impossible to carry out satisfactorily and fairly, but I would remind them that that test was re-enacted by the Labour Government itself in 1924. The words in the Act, as interpreted by the umpire, were very difficult to apply, and I agree that they led to a good deal of heartburning; but the shifting of the onus of proof, not altogether but very largely, from the claimant to the State, simply means that the qualification for benefit in the future will become far greater, and will lead to greater demands on the insurance fund.
Do not worry; there are plenty of "cops" left in Clause 4.
It is a relaxation which has also led to a weakening of the incentive to find work. Hon. Members must remember that the only conditions under the Measure for receiving benefit are eight weeks' work during the past two years or 30 weeks work at any time. That is all the more reason why the greatest care should be taken to safeguard the Insurance Fund by seeing that nobody gets benefit unless he is genuinely in search of empoylment. I think hon. Members will agree that the longer this widespread unemployment goes on, the more will unemployment become a habit. That is a sad but, I fear, an inevitable conclusion, and therefore the more necessary is it not to relax those safeguards which have been provided to save the Fund for those contributors who are genuinely anxious to find work and who will take work whenever they get the opportunity.
The further relaxations of the provisions dealing with the transitional period are even less justifiable, and I do not think this point has yet been dealt with in the Debate. In this case the expense is to come wholly out of the pockets of the general taxpayer. I refer to the third transitional condition for benefit under the Act of 1927 which applies in cases where the claimant has not paid 30 contributions during the last two years and which requires him to prove that during those two years he has been in insurable employment as far as circumstances have permitted. It is perfectly true, I admit, that certain grievances arose in consequence of decisions of the umpire and the Morris Committee, a very able Committee which produced a most interesting and valuable report, suggested that certain interpretations of that rule were too severe on the claimant. No doubt they were but the Bill goes much further than the recommendations of the Morris Committee in this matter. It wipes out this two-year condition altogether, and removes a real safeguard against claims being made without proper or sufficient warrant.
The criticism which I make against the Bill is that there is no definite relation in it between contributions and benefits. The next step after the Act of 1927 ought to have been to revert to the Act of 1920, where a definite relation between contributions and benefits was laid down. The Government ought to have taken the un-insurable class out of insurance altogether and handed them over to the local authorities and the machinery of the new Local Government Act. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] I was afraid that hon. Gentlemen opposite would not agree with me on that point, but until that is done, every unemployment insurance scheme will be actuarially unsound and vicious in principle. It is now generally recognised, as it was recognised in the Blanesburgh Report, that there must always be a large number of people chronically unemployed. These ought not to be dealt with in an insurance scheme at all. The problem of the chronically unemployed is a totally different one and, to my mind, should be dealt with under a special scheme. The old local authorities that dealt with destitution and with grants for relieving that destitution having now been unified, there was a great opportunity to establish an insurance scheme, on the one hand, actuarially sound, for those who in normal times can get work and are therefore insurable, and, on the other hand, a scheme under the new Local Government Act for those who must be regarded, I am sorry to say, as chronically unemployed and who have to face uninsurable unemployment. But the Bill before the House has failed to do that. It has tried to include both categories, the insurable and the uninsurable, and therefore it can only be regarded as merely a transitional Measure until something better can be thought out.
There is a further point which I would like to touch upon very lightly, as a good deal has been said about it to-day. I submit that the Government ought to take very serious notice of the Minority Report in regard to the question of juveniles. The signatories of this very able Minority Report report very strongly against bringing juveniles of between 15 and 16 into unemployment insurance. They seem to me to prove almost conclusively that the so-called insurance gap will automatically disappear owing to shortage of juvenile labour. My hon. Friend the Member for East Lewis-ham (Sir A. Pownall) this afternoon gave the figures, and he made it quite clear that within a very few years there will be a shortage of very nearly a million juveniles; and, of course, any improvement in trade will make that shortage greater still. Therefore, the so-called insurance gap, to my mind, is merely imaginary. In fact, the Government actuary himself tells us in his report that unemployment is going to be very low among that class of people, yet the Government are making them and their employers become contributors, with practically no benefit or advantage in prospect. Indeed, so little do the juveniles gain from the Bill that the Government actuary has pointed out that their entry into insurance is going to benefit the Fund by no less than £500,000 a year. Not only so, but the shortage of juvenile labour will be aggravated by their encouragement to delay their entry into employment. The fictitious contributions to be credited to them if they continue their education will necessarily discourage them entering into insurable employment, and the Minority Committee point out—and I imagine that they looked into it and are right—that there is no such system in any single country competing with us at the present time. Therefore, I hope this provision will be very seriously reconsidered before the Bill leaves the House.
Lastly, the Bill is going to add a largely increased burden to the already heavily burdened taxpayers. The State has got to shoulder the whole of the ÂŁ8,500,000 uncovenanted benefit under the transitional provisions, and there is an extra ÂŁ4,000,000 owing to the growth of expenditure under previous Acts; that is to say, the taxpayers have to bear an added burden in the coming years of no less than ÂŁ12,500,000.
Has the right hon. Gentleman forgotten that the late Chancellor of the Exchequer took ÂŁ15,000,000 from the fund?
I am now referring to the burden placed upon the general taxpayer. This is not the whole financial story. In this ÂŁ12,500,000 the ÂŁ200,000 in respect of juveniles is not included. Moreover, the cost of the vast change consequent upon the relaxation of the conditions for obtaining benefit have been estimated in the memorandum to the Bill at only ÂŁ3,250,000. I am confident that that is a gross under-estimate, whether the changes be right or wrong. When you consider the change involved in the abolition of the genuinely seeking work test, when you consider the almost equally great change involved in the surrender of the requirement to prove reasonable employment during the last two years, the estimate of ÂŁ3,250,000 is quite inadequate. This estimated sum is also made to include the vast number of new cases where benefit will be paid for the first time, pending a decision by the court of referees and the umpire, instead of, as in the past, only when the decision has been given favourable to the claimant. It us also made to include the cost of the whole system of substituting the courts of referees for the insurance officer in cases where the insurance officer doubts a claim.
The Government Actuary confesses that there is no data for the provision of reliable estimates, and this sum is not his estimate, but that of the Ministry of Labour. It seems a pity that the basis of the estimate was not given in the Memorandum to the Bill. It is quite possible that these great changes will add an extra cost almost as great as the extra benefits. Meanwhile, the Prime Minister has met some of his recalcitrant supporters. The hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood) made a very unpleasantly direct speech on Sunday in Glasgow. I will quote only a few words.
It is unfair to take a sentence from the context.
If the right hon. gentleman wishes me to read it, I will:
"Jimmy Thomas and others cannot make capitalism work. MacDonald has done nothing to ease the situation, Snowden has done nothing, and Henderson has done nothing, while Jimmy Thomas's bluff has gone. He has taken on a job he cannot do, and no other man can do, and the sooner we make them realise that the better."
This is what I was going to quote:
"MacDonald is no more use to me than Baldwin, unless he delivers the goods. I don't care if I risk my seat in Parliament. I will do what I can to break a Government that does not keep its pledges to the working-classes."
I understand, however, that a meeting was held, and the Prime Minister held out certain hopes of increased benefit and increased expenditure in future. Therefore, this Bill is only an instalment of what we are going to see in days to come. I understand that the commitments of the Government next year will amount to an additional ÂŁ19,000,000. I say that neither the taxpayers of this country nor industry in general can endure more than a certain burden, and unless the Government take very great care the time will come when their strength will break. [HON. MEMBERS: "Cheer up!"] To my mind, the Government have shown very little courage in this Bill. They have surrendered to demands which will not only press very hardly on all the free contributors to the scheme, but in the long run will aggravate the very problem of unemployment which they are pledged to solve. Feeling, as I do, that these very grave defects in the Bill go right down to the principle of unemployment insurance, I certainly shall feel constrained to go into the Lobby against the Second Reading.
In view of the prophecies which have been made during the past few weeks concerning the possible reception of this Bill, I think from the spirit of the Debate to-day that my right hon. Friend has every reason to be gratified with the reception of her Bill. [ Interruption. ] The criticism has only come from one part of the House, and was vague as to any definite statement that they were going to oppose the Second Reading. My right hon. Friend very much doubted what was the position of the Mover of the Amendment, the hon. and gallant Member for Kelvingrove (Major Elliot), because, particularly as regard this transition stage, his statements were rather vague. Looking at the terms of the Amendment, my right hon. Friend was led to put three questions to the hon. and gallant Member. She asked him what he would suggest instead of the Exchequer taking over the people who come under the transition stage. She asked him whether he would throw them off benefit. To that there was no reply. Then she asked him whether he would increase the contributions or merely increase the debt in order to meet the needs of the men in the transition stage. There was no answer from the opposite benches on that point. But the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wood Green (Mr. G. Locker-Lampson) has made it quite clear to the House what his intention is, and now we know that the Conservative alternative to the Exchequer taking these people over is to throw them on to poor relief and make them a charge, as he says, on the local authority.
The point I wanted to make was that they ought to be taken out of unemployment insurance and dealt with by special schemes.
I think we have a right to know what the hon. Member means by "special schemes." It is clear that these special schemes place these people on Poor Law relief.
We have no such intention, and I did not frame my Amendment in that way. I deny that that is in any way the policy of my party.
It would be interesting to know who is stating the policy of the party opposite. The intention of hon. Members opposite was that these 120,000 people should be placed under special schemes of the local authorities.
:Not on the rates.
They do not form part of the unemployment insurance scheme at all. They ought to be dealt with by special schemes arranged by the local authorities with an Exchequer grant—certainly not on the rates.
I should like the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wood Green to explain how they can be placed on the local authorities without becoming a charge on the rates. I was very much surprised to hear that statement, because the right hon. Gentleman opposite admitted that the unemployed man is one who really wants work. That point cannot be too much emphasised in this House and outside, because there is a type of newspaper and a type of man and woman who have done these men a great wrong in that respect. In spite of all that they have said, many of these men have been out of work for two or three years. I come from an area where there is a large number of unemployed, and one of the most amazing experiences of my life has been the patience shown by these men in the face of long-sustained unemployment. As one who has spent the best years of his life in hard manual labour under severe discipline, I have been amazed at the way in which these men have maintained their morale under very trying circumstances, and I think it would be for the good of the country, and it would be simple justice to these men if the note which has been struck by the right hon. Gentleman opposite was made known for the benefit of this country and the world at large.
One of the points which has been emphasised at some length is contained in the first Clause. We have had a speech on this subject from the hon. Member for East Birken-head (Mr. White), and I understand that he has shown an understanding of this problem which is seldom shown from the Front Bench opposite. The hon. Member for Wimbledon (Sir J. Power) made the remarkable statement that it would be demoralising to allow juveniles at 16 years of age to come into contact with unemployed men at the Exchanges. I am surprised that an hon. Member with a long period of public service behind him should make such a statement as that.
I must point out that the hon. Gentleman is misquoting my hon. Friend the Member for Wimbledon (Sir J. Power). My hon. Friend did not speak of association with men at the Employment Exchanges. If the hon. Gentleman will read the OFFICIAL REPORT to-morrow, he will see that what my hon. Friend spoke of what that having to visit the Employment Exchange would have a certain effect on the minds of the children.
That is much the same thing, because anyone who knows anything about Employment Exchange work will know that there are separate places for juveniles. What is more to the point is that there are juvenile advisory committees, and I would suggest that the hon. Member for Wimbledon should get into contact with the Juvenile Advisory Committee in Wimbledon who would tell him something of the very fine work that is being done in giving advice and generally in guiding these boys and girls in reference to finding employment.
The Minister, before introducing the lowering of the age of insurance, made it quite clear, in answer to a question, that she took the advice of the two National Advisory Councils for Juvenile Employment for England and Wales and for Scotland, and I think it is well that it should be known that those Advisory Councils are very representative bodies. The Council for England and Wales is under the chairmanship of the Earl of Shaftesbury, and the one for Scotland is under the chairmanship of the Earl of Elgin. They are fully representative of the educational and industrial bodies concerned with questions of juvenile employment, and they include representatives of the employers' organisations, the Trade Union Congress General Council, the education authorities, the teaching profession, and the voluntary committees whose duty it is to advise children leaving school about their career and to help them in the early years of their industrial life. I think it is important that the facts should be known, because the Scottish Council recommended unanimously that the age of entry into insurance should be lowered if and when the school-leaving age was raised, while the English Council submitted a Majority Report, signed by 19 members, in favour of lowering the insurance age to 15, and two Minority Reports in the contrary sense, signed by five and four members respectively. The Majority Report was signed by the Chairman, the representatives of the Trades Union Congress General Council, the chairmen of the Juvenile Advisory Committees, the representatives of the National Union of Teachers and of secondary school teachers, and the majority of the representatives of the education authorities. Of the Minority Reports of the English Council, one is submitted by the representatives of the National Confederation of Employers' Organisations, and the other by certain representatives of the education authorities.
The hon. and gallant Gentleman quite suddenly developed an affection for the Minority Reports, and I think it is worth while stressing the fact that one of those Minority Reports was submitted by the representatives of the National Confederation of Employers' Organisations. I do not want to impute to employers base motives, but I do want to suggest that the financial and economic side was the factor that weighed more with them than the moral and educational side. In this report, whether it is the educational representatives—[An HON. MEMBER: "They are divided!"]— The minority, in spite of the name of the gentlemen associated with it, struck me, in face of the overwhelming support, as negligible. All opinion was in favour of bridging that gap between the school and the insurance age. Anyone who knows anything about unemployment knows that at no point has it a more disintegrating effect upon the life of anyone than on boys who have just left school. Anyone who has done any work among adolescents at all must have been impressed by that fact. My right hon. Friend in years to come will find this one of the most satisfactory Clauses in the Bill and one of the most satisfactory acts she has performed during her occupation of this office.
It is, of course, complained that the juveniles ought not to be called upon to pay contributions. This has been a surprising Debate from the point of view of the juveniles. When the Bill was announced, the first thing we saw in headlines all over the country was "Doles for Children!" To-day we have been told by the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Kelvingrove (Major Elliot) that what the Government is out for is snatching the coppers of the newspaper boys, and that we are going to take advantage of them in order to obtain their contributions. It ought to be emphasised that boys now do not get benefit as soon as they reach 16. They have to qualify by contributions. But the effect of lowering the age to 15 as the school age is raised will be that it will be possible for benefit to be paid at 16, which is much more to the point than is the case at present. The important thing about it is that the object of the Minister in the main was to enable her to get some control over the fifteen-year-olds who may be unemployed.
It has been my lot, and I am. sure the lot of a good many Members here, to see something of the training that has been done at some of these juvenile training centres. Those who know that work and have seen some really representative juvenile training centres will agree that they are making a real contribution, not only to training, but to the factors that make for manhood and womanhood. Before I leave that point, I should like to refer to the position of boys of 17, 18 and 19 years of age. I understand that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) rather questioned the proposal that we should pay certain scales of benefit to youths of those ages. It is proposed under the Bill to pay 9s. a week to youths of 18 for unemployment benefit, and 7S. 6d. to girls of 17. Youths of 18 and 19 will get 14s. and girls 12s. Is that really too much to a growing youth with all his needs?
May I ask a question? It is not so much that, but the Minister in charge and also "Labour and the Nation" have said that unemployment benefit for boys and girls must be conditional upon attendance at a juvenile centre. That is the point which you entirely leave out. The Blanesburgh Committee recommended that no payment should be given to juveniles unless they attended suitable courses of instruction, and then it was to be, not unemployment benefit, but training allowance. That is the point we want made clear.
The Noble Lady has really missed the point, because I made it quite clear. One reason for lowering the age of insurance was that, instead of youths of 15 years coming to an instruc- tion centre voluntarily and to the advisory committee voluntarily, they should be dealt with in the manner suggested. That is conditional.
Does that mean that no benefit will be paid to these juveniles except when they attend training centres?
That is what we want to know.
Really, this is astonishing. Hon. Members opposite show a remarkable ignorance of the Acts.
Where is it in the Bill?
In a Section of the 1927 Act which is being amended by this Bill, reference is made to the fact that to juveniles from 16 to 18 years the receipt of benefit may be conditional—
May be!
Is conditional. It depends only upon the extension of the training system. The Noble Lady rather side-tracked me. I cannot understand why there should be any cavilling at the amount paid. Many of these juveniles are away from home, and, after all, it is only the amount which boys and girls in other walks of life get for pocket money. It is quite true that the existing rates were recommended by the Blanesburgh Committee on the condition that training was to be provided, but the training was not provided. The Blanesburgh Committee said many other things as well. I well remember that they put in the forefront of their proposals that there should be certain schemes of construction so that the men should be able to get work. All that was ignored by the last Government, which passed the Act, and took advantage of it. While they ignored the real proposals, they put the rates in the Act.
After all, the important Clause in this Bill is Clause 4, which repeals the not "genuinely seeking work" condition. It would appear from the Debate to-night that the Minister has really struck the happy medium On that side of the House we are told that people are going to get benefit who really will not be entitled to it. One hon. and gallant Member contended that the Clause was vague, but from that vagueness there gradually emerged the statement that the Measure will give benefit to those who are not really entitled to it. Some of my hon. Friends behind are very doubtful as to what is going to be the effect of the Clause. My right hon. Friend has explained what the intention of the Clause is. She has also made it quite clear that if the House desired she would be open to receive, and give consideration to, Amendments intended to give point and to make sure that the intention of the Clause is carried out.
I do not wish to go further into that matter. There will be opportunities of thrashing it out in Committee, but my right hon. Friend has made it quite clear beyond a shadow of doubt that the "genuinely seeking work" Clause is not re-enacted in Clause 4 but that work finding is substituted in the long run. She desires that information about specific jobs and available work shall be substituted for the present harassing procedure which takes place when men are interviewed concerning their efforts to find work. My time is at an end. I only want to say that this Debate will go on for another day, and that if it is conducted in the same spirit as it has been to-day, my right hon. Friend has instructed me to say that she will reciprocate that spirit by giving the warmest consideration to any suggestions in order to carry out the intentions of the Bill.
Ordered, "That the Debate be now adjourned".—[ Captain Wallace. ]
Debate to be resumed upon Monday next, 25th November.
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
Singapore Naval Base
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."— [ Mr. Kennedy. ]
11.0 p.m.
It is not my purpose to-night to raise the question of the merits or demerits of the action of the Government in respect of the naval base at Singapore. That is an issue upon which many of us upon these Benches feel very strongly, but it is too wide an issue to raise at this late hour of the night. The particular issue with which I would detain the House is scarcely less important, though, perhaps, more limited. We on these Benches complain to-night of the Government's attitude, not in regard to the policy they have pursued towards the Singapore base, which is not our concern to-night, but because of the manner in which they have arrived at their policy, which is our immediate concern to-night. I hope that the Under-Secretary of State for the Dominions (Mr. Ponsonby) who is to reply, will confine his reply to that particular issue and not, as the Prime Minister did, to other matters which are not directly relevant to the charge which we have to bring. What exactly was the position! Australia, New Zealand, Hong Kong and the Straits Settlements contributed very generously to the heavy burden of cost which the construction of the naval base involved. We have on several occasions in this House paid a tribute to that generosity. It was the very least that we could do, in view of the generous and almost princely munificence which those parts of the Empire displayed. In the face of these very generous contributions it was, surely, only what one could have expected that whatever Government was in power in this country, it would consult very carefully and thoroughly, stage by stage, during the course of the construction of that base, with those who have contributed, as to what should be their next step and their next course. We would have expected the Government at home to inform them and consult them, not only in regard to changes of policy but in regard to every modification in policy.
What actually happened? The Government decided on a change of policy but they did not even consult those who had contributed so largely towards the cost. They did not consult them, but, in the words used by the Prime Minister in the House yesterday, they informed them. But the Government did not even inform some of those who have contributed most generously. The information was confined to the Dominions of Australia and New Zealand. So far as I am aware, the other contributors to the cost of the scheme were able to glean their information from the replies to Questions in this House.
I think the House will agree that that is a most unsatisfactory position in which to be placed. In ordinary, common courtesy, it seems inconceivable that the Government should not have consulted closely, thoroughly and exhaustively with those who contributed to the cost, before they arrived at any decision of any kind. I cannot but feel that the Government's attitude in this connection is an admirable illustration of the difference of methods of the Socialist and Conservative parties in dealing with Imperial and Colonial affairs. It has been for long the basis of our Imperial policy that there should be at every stage the closest consultation, and that even in the ordinary everyday matters of routine there should be the fullest information given to any part of the Empire and to every part of the Empire, whether the particular matter at issue is the immediate concern of them or not.
Those of us who were in this House three or four years ago remember well the indignation, it must have been the simulated indignation, of hon. Members opposite who accused us at the time of the Arcos raid because we had not consulted the Dominions before we carried out that raid, which was essentially a matter of our own domestic concern. What of this, which is essentially a matter which concerns the Dominions and Colonies who have contributed so largely to the cost? Even in ordinary everyday minor matters it is our practice to consult closely with the Dominions and Crown Colonies. But this is no minor matter. The hon. Member who is to reply knows how great is the concern of the Dominions and Colonies most nearly concerned, geographically, that this work shall be carried through. He knows how real is their concern. May be he will remember that there is a special reason for that concern. He will remember for instance, as the House will remember, that the Commonwealth of Australia in recent years has carried out a naval programme in close conjunction, as we would wish, with us, and that their policy has been based on the assumption that the Singapore base would be proceeded with. What is to happen now? What explana- tion is the Government going to make to the Australian Government? It can easily be argued that their policy of naval construction and Commonwealth defence would have been different had they not proceeded on the assumption that this base was to be completed. Yet the Government did not even trouble to consult them before they came to the decision to delay the work. I am afraid it must be long since in this House there has been such a gross neglect of what should be our most important procedure, to work in Imperial unity on matters of Imperial policy. It may be, and can be, argued that this matter is a more immediately geographical concern of the Dominions and Colonies situated near the Singapore base; that it is more especially their concern. But it is, or should be, equally our concern. The day that this House ceases to have a real interest in anything, whether it be defensive or otherwise, connected with the more distant parts of the Empire, that these matters concern us less than matters geographically nearer home, on that day shall we have neglected our most important duty.
I hope the Under-Secretary of State is not going to content himself with saying that the Government did not bother to consult the Dominions and Colonies because there is really no change in policy, it is simply a postponement and it was not necessary to tell them. The hon. Member knows that the mere fact of a postponement is a most important change in policy. To those concerned near by their plans were based on the assumption that the work would proceed, and anything in the nature of a postponement is therefore an abrupt change of policy, which should not have been carried out without the closest previous consultation. They were looking forward to the completion of this base, and if postponement is to be decided upon, it should never have been done without the closest consultation with those who are most intimately concerned. One final word. I should like to put to the hon. Gentleman these questions: I should like to ask him why the Government did not first consult the Commonwealth of Australia and the Government of the Dominion of New Zealand before coming to a conclusion. I should like to ask him, also, why there was no consultation with, or even information granted to, Hong Kong and the Straits Settlements, and the chiefs of the Federated Malay States, who contributed to the cost.
On a point of Order. Is it in order for the Conservative party to make noises from the Front Bench?
:I should like to ask why there was no consultation with the chiefs of the Federated Malay States, more particularly because, as the House will no doubt recollect, the money which came from the chiefs of the Federated Malay States was paid for the purpose of actually expediting this work, and on the understanding that it would be expedited; so I ask the hon. Gentleman why there was no consultation with that part of the Empire which had paid specially to expedite the work. I am afraid, as we review this decision, that we cannot doubt that the Government have been guilty of a very grave dereliction of its responsibilities. If the hon. Gentleman had studied most closely, in the papers of the Empire, the consequences of the action of the Government, he would not be so cynically cheerful as he appears to be at this moment. I fear that the occasion when the Government should have been most careful, is the moment when they have chosen to be most cavalier.
I can imagine the hon. Gentleman saying, in his reply, that we on this side of the House have been wrong in raising this issue at once. We have done it, because we believe that now, the earliest possible moment, is the moment at which the Government should do what little it can to vindicate its position. The responsibility for this Debate rests upon the Prime Minister, who would not give us yesterday a clear answer to a clear question, but who, when we asked him why the Colonies were not consulted, contented himself with telling us that they were informed. I should have thought that the Prime Minister, at any rate, would know the difference between consultation and information in respect of our Dominions and Colonies. I hope that the hon. Gentleman who replies will have learnt it by to-night. If there be any blame on anyone for the raising of this issue it must rest with the Government. It is their own fault, and we wait to hear their explanation.
In conclusion, I would say this: It may be said that this is too late—that it is barring the stable door after the horse has bolted. We will take our risk of that. Our final question to the hon. Gentleman gives him an opportunity, if not of repairing the damage which he has done, at least of seeing that it goes no further. I would ask him this: Will he undertake to-night, in the name of the Government, that no further step shall be taken either to delay, or postpone, or speed up the Singapore Base without, at every stage, the closest collaboration with every part of the Empire which has contributed to, or is concerned with the future of, that base? If he will give us that deliberate assurance —which should normally be superfluous, but which, in view of the Government's recent conduct, becomes vital—he will do something to repair the damage which he has done, and to atone for what I believe to be a gross and clumsy error in taste, in tactics, and in equity.
I am sure the hon. and gallant Member for Warwick (Captain Eden) will understand that the Prime Minister himself would have replied to-night but for the fact that he is unfortunately engaged elsewhere. He has entrusted me with the duty of answering. The Government welcome this opportunity to clear up a matter which appears to have troubled a section of hon. Members opposite, who have taken this matter entirely out of proportion. It is almost impossible by question and answer to elucidate all the facts, and we are grateful to the hon. and gallant Member for Warwick for affording us this opportunity of putting the facts before the House. Let me say a word first on the question of consultation with the Dominions. The five Dominions are consulted by the present Government on a scale which I think is quite unprecedented. I imagine that we have reached a pitch in consulting the Dominions which far surpasses anything that was done by the previous Government.
Does the hon. Gentleman realise that there are six Dominions and not five?
On all matters that concern either the Dominions themselves or the Empire as a whole, telegrams are sent out daily in order that every one of the Dominions shall be kept fully informed of everything that passes, and in order that on all those questions where policy is concerned there may be the fullest possible consultation. We do not do that as a matter of routine, but because we consider that the Dominions, now that they have achieved full nationhood, have every right to the fullest consultation with His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom, and it is only to be regretted that the machinery for consultation—that is to say, the telegraph wires—is not always very convenient, and the far-flung nature of our Empire makes rapid decisions very often impossible.
In this particular instance I will deal with this matter and the extent to which the Dominions were informed and consulted. The hon. and gallant Member very mistakenly says that the statement made by the First Lord the other day at Question Time represented a change of policy. It is no such thing, and that is the underlying fallacy in the questions that have been raised. There is no change of policy. His Majesty's Government have in this statement merely shown that precautionary measures, or provisional steps, may have to be taken in view of possible eventualities. So little has policy changed that those words sum up exactly what has happened —nothing more than that.
What eventualities?
The eventualities are the decisions of the Five-Power Naval Conference which is to be held. [ Interruption. ]
The hon. Gentleman must be allowed to proceed without interruption.
Therefore, there is no change in policy at all, but it was necessary that the Dominions should be informed, and, as far back as July, an examination of the whole question was undertaken by the Government, and the considerations which they had in view were communicated to all the Dominions.
May I ask a question—
Order!
I cannot answer half-a-dozen questions, because I have only ten minutes left. It was not a matter of consultation, and it was not a matter sprung upon the Dominions at the last moment. Time is required for consultation, and there are occasions where very prompt statements have to be made by the Government, and those occasions occur in Parliamentary questions. When a Parliamentary question is put down it may be postponed for a few days, but a prompt statement has to be made. Two questions were put by the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir A. Sinclair) and the hon. Member for Newcastle, Central (Sir N. Grattan-Doyle). The period for preparation of a statement covered only a few days. The question was down for the 13th. The reply was drafted by the evening of Monday, the 11th. It was handed to me by the First Lord of the Admiralty and I went over that night, when the House was up at 11, to the Dominions Office. I caught the Resident Clerk there and instructed him to telegraph it at once to New Zealand, and these other Dominions, because I knew that it was very important and that, although it was 12 midnight here, it was 12 midday in New Zealand, and it would give them time to receive this information.
Since then, intercourse and communications have gone on between His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom and New Zealand and the other Dominions, so that information was given at the earliest possible moment of this statement which the First Lord was to make. We did not regard it as having consulted them, because we did not regard it as an occasion for consultation. When there is a decision on policy, when, if eventualities should arise, it becomes necessary to make a change in policy, before that time arrives there will be the fullest consultation not only with the Dominions but with the Colonies, the Federated Malay States and Hong Kong, who are also concerned.
Hon. Members opposite are under the impression that the Labour Government and the Labour party are not sufficiently solicitous of the susceptibilities of Dominion Governments. I wish they could read, as I do, the opinions about His Majesty's present Prime Minister and advisers in the United Kingdom which appear in Dominion newspapers, and the speeches made by Dominion statesmen. I think they would get rather a different view, and their pride at being the great champions of the Empire would be somewhat reduced.
The hon. and gallant Member has asked me three distinct questions. Australia and New Zealand, as I said, on this occasion, as it was merely a statement of what the precautionary measures were, and it was not a matter where consultation was necessary, were informed, but they were not consulted. Hong Kong and the Federated Malay States, and the Dominions too, will be drawn into full consultation about the whole policy when the time arrives for a decision to be made, if and when it has to be made, after the decision of the Five-Power Conference has been come to. Then the hon. and gallant Member asked me to give an undertaking in the name of the Government that no steps would be taken before the closest collaboration. I can certainly give him that undertaking, because the closest collaboration is going on. He said himself it is an entirely superfluous question.
It should be.
Hon. Members opposite have again thought that they have discovered the Government was doing something wrong, and, as on former occasions, they have made a mistake. From the stage when the Dominions were informed in July last to the telegrams that have been received in the last few hours, the Government have acted in a strictly correct way. But it is not in order to be correct that we did this, but because we value the opinions of the Dominions, because we feel that consultation with them and information given to them is necessary at every stage—because we realise the generosity that has been displayed by New Zealand, Australia and others and because we desire, whatever decision His Majesty's Government may come to in future, to see that the Empire should act as a whole. I feel that the various parts of the Empire, trusting as they do His Majesty's present advisers, have no cause to complain whatever.
The whole topic which has been raised in one of its aspects tonight is far too important to be discussed on the Adjournment, and obviously calls for fuller discussion later on. Meanwhile, some of us had hoped that the issues raised by my hon. Friend this evening would have led to some light being thrown on the situation. I confess that the hon. Member who has been speaking in this matter on behalf of the Prime Minister has only contrived to involve the conduct of the Government in a complete fog. I understand that the Dominions were specially informed in July that there was no change of policy. I understand that the other day a question had to be answered, and an answer was given which certainly showed a very considerable change in policy. The Government not having foreseen the possibility of the question, apparently there was not time for consultation but at most for information. We are now assured that there will be consultation, but I gather unless the Under-Secretary did not say what he meant, that such consultation would take place after decisions had been come to at the Five Powers Conference. What we do wish to know is that there will be consultation now and that there will be clear amity of Empire policy in this matter before we enter the Five Powers Conference. Obviously this is not an occasion when we can further prosecute this question but I would only say that what little we have heard from the Treasury Bench makes us feel all the more that this question needs fuller discussion.
I should like to remind the right hon. Gentleman that the Dominions will be represented at the five Power conference.
I am perfectly aware that the Dominions will be represented, though not the Colonies, but I trust that we shall go to the, conference table not meeting as if this matter were being raised for the first time in the presence of the world outside, but with a united Empire policy arrived at before we meet at the conference.
I should like to associate myself with what has been said on this side. We have not heard a single answer to any of the questions that have been put from this side of the House. I put a question to the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty and a supplementary question which he did not answer. I subsequently put a question to the Prime Minister which was to ask whether any protest had been received from the Dominions or the Colonies because this work had been stopped without consulting them. To that question I have not yet had a reply. I take this opportunity of registering a protest that a reasonable question put in a reasonable way on a matter which I believe to be of extreme moment to the British Empire has not yet been answered. I have no desire to go into the wider question of policy, but I think the Government might at least have answered the question. If they were unable to do so they might have said that they were unable to answer a plain question in plain English.
It being Half-past Eleven of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.