House of Commons
Monday, November 25, 1929
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
Oral Answers to Questions
India
Cinematograph Films
asked the Secretary of State for India whether he has any information of any changes that have taken place during the previous 12 months in the method in which cinematograph films are censored in British India; and can he give the House particulars?
No, Sir. I am not aware that the Government of India have yet reached any conclusions on the recommendations of the Indian Cinematograph Committee, in the Report of which the existing censorship machinery was described and modifications in it proposed.
Is it proposed to adopt the suggestions which have been made by the Indian Cinematograph Committee in their Report?
That is a matter on which no decision has been reached.
Conference
asked the Secretary of State for India when it is the intention of the Government to publish the terms of reference for the conference which is to be set up under the proposals set out in the letter to the Prime Minister from the chairman of the Simon Commission and in the Prime Minister's reply, and what will be the constitution of that conference?
It would be premature at the present time to add anything to the recent statement by the Viceroy in India.
Does the right hon. Gentleman not think that, with the object of securing that co-operation which we all want from Indian political opinion, and at the same time of avoiding any possible misunderstanding or accusation of breach of faith, it is desirable to lay down the general terms of reference as soon as possible?
I am fully conscious of the important points which the hon. Gentleman makes, and they will be borne in mind.
Will the right hon. Gentleman give an undertaking that at some period reasonably in advance of the actual holding of the conference he will make a full statement to this House, so that the matter can be discussed by question and answer?
It is always open to the House to raise a matter of this kind, and I think I should be acting in the wisest way if I said nothing at the present moment.
Air Force (Indian Cadets)
asked the Secretary of State for India how many Indian cadets have been trained to date at the Royal Air Force College, Cranwell; how many are under training; and what facilities exist in India for training suitable Indian gentlemen for commissions in the Royal Air Force?
The answer to each part of the question is none as yet. Facilities exist for the training of Indian gentlemen at Cranwell, but as a result of the two Army and Air Force examinations so far held in India no candidate who has given Cranwell as his first choice has succeeded in qualifying for Cranwell. Indian cadets who pass out of Cranwell will not be commissioned in the Royal Air Force but for employment in a separate Indian air force.
Would the right hon. Gentleman mind answering the last part of the question?
As far as I know, there are no Indians in the Royal Air Force in India at the present time, and naturally it is desired to secure them.
Is the right hon. Gentleman taking any steps to train or provide facilities for the training of these gentlemen in India or elsewhere?
I should like notice before I give a specific answer to that question.
Will the cadets who pass out of Cranwell receive the King's Commission?
I should like notice of that question.
Royal Indian Marine (Training)
asked the Secretary of State for India what arrangements exist for training suitable Indian gentlemen to be officers in the Royal Navy and/or the Royal Indian Marine; and what is his present policy in this matter?
Indian gentlemen are recruited only for the Royal Indian Marine, which is an Indian Service. It is intended that selected candidates for the executive branch should, after a few months' preliminary training in India in some cases, be sent to this country for two years' training with the Royal Navy; and that selected candidates for the Engineering branch should, unless they are already qualified as engineers, be sent to this country for five years' training in selected shipyards followed by a three months' course under the Admiralty. The policy is to provide the best available training wherever it is to be found.
Do I understand that Indian cadets will be sent to be trained in His Majesty's ships at home as we trained Turks and Japanese in the past?
That is answered in the reply which I have given.
Does that mean that they will be trained as executive officers in the gunroom among our own cadets?
I have prepared a careful answer, and, if the hon. and gallant Gentleman will examine it, he will find that his point is answered.
Gaol Adminstration
asked the Secretary of State for India whether replies have now been received from all the local governments concerned to the circular letter of the Government of India, dated the 5th October, placing before them certain proposals for remodelling gaol administration in India; and whether he will inform the House of the nature of the proposed conference which is to be convened by the Government of India to consider the question of gaol reform?
According to my latest information all the replies to the circular of 5th October have not yet been received. When the local governments have completed their examination of the question, in consultation with local non-official opinion, the Government of India propose to hold a conference with representatives of local governments with a view to reaching agreed conclusions.
Territorial Force
asked the Secretary of State for India the number of Indians enrolled in the provincial and urban units of the Indian territorial force since the reorganisation of these units following the adoption by the Government of India of the main recommendations of the Shea Committee?
As regard provincial units, the figures available do not show the numbers enrolled since the 1st April, 1928, when these units were reorganised. The actual strength on that date was 304 officers, excluding regular British officers, and 11,090 other ranks. The latest corresponding figures, up to the 1st August last, are 275 and 10,038. Urban units were first constituted on the 1st September, 1928. The strength last August was six officers and 145 other ranks.
Rangoon High Court (Advocates)
asked the Secretary of State for India the result of the inquiry addressed to the Government of India regarding the rule made by the Bar Council of the Rangoon High Court prohibiting advocates not entered in the roll of advocates of that Court from practising in the Courts subordinate to it except with the express permission of the presiding Judge in a particular cause or matter?
As I have already informed my hon. and gallant Friend, the legality of the rule is, I understand, to be tested in the Courts, and I am therefore unable to make any statement on the matter.
Will the right hon. Gentleman give the House an assurance that Indian members of the Bar of England will be given all the facilities that are open to all members of the Bar?
That covers rather wider ground than this question.
Provincial Congress Officials (Prosecutions)
asked the Secretary of State for India the number of provincial congress officials who have been prosecuted under Section 124a of the Indian penal code; and whether any such prosecutions have taken place since the publication of the Viceroy's statement?
I regret that I am not in possession of the necessary information to enable me to answer the first part of the question. As regards the second part, I am not aware of any new prosecution having been instituted since the publication of the Viceroy's statement.
Communist Organisations
asked the Secretary of State for India whether he will lay upon the Table of the House such evidence as he possesses respecting the activities of the Communist International and other Communist organisations in India?
I answered this question when put by the hon. and gallant Baronet the Member for Dulwich (Sir F. Hall) on 8th July.
Is there any reason why this information should not be given to the House?
If the hon. and gallant Member will refer to the answer, he will find reasons given there.
Russia (British Relations)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can now state whether the Soviet Government has agreed to the request of the Dominion Governments that the guarantees against propaganda should be made applicable to them?
I am not yet in a position to make a reply except to state that the Norwegian Government have been requested to make a communication on the subject to the Soviet Government.
Does that mean that a communication has been made and not yet answered, or that it has been refused?
No, it means just what I said.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, as soon as the new Russian Ambassador has presented his credentials, he will take the earliest possible opportunity to clear up the differences of opinion that exist between the two Governments on the question of the Third International?
The hon. and gallant Member may rest assured that the object of His Majesty's Government in renewing relations with the Government of the Soviet is to ensure improved relations and a better understanding between the two countries in all directions.
Will the right hon. Gentleman take the earliest opportunity of clearing up this very obvious misunderstanding?
Has the right hon. Gentleman's attention been called to the statement of the Minister of Justice in the Union of South Africa that this trouble is directly due to the Third International—[ Interruption. ]
Will the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that if the new Ambassador refuses to accept responsibility for the—[ Interruption. ]
Mexico (Bondholders)
13 and 14.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (1) whether, seeing that the Mexican Bondholders' Committee was appointed at the wish of the Government, he can say if it is still functioning; how many meetings were held during the past year; what was the date of the last meeting; is there any Report as to progress and present position available; and, if not, will he ask for one and lay it upon the Table of the House;
(2) whether, seeing that 11,000,000 pesos were handed by the Mexican Government, in respect of debt, to the American Bankers' Committee, he will state what has been done with this money?
As regards the first part of the question, it would be accurate to state that the International Committee of Bankers on Mexico was appointed with the cognisance of His Majesty's Government but at the wish of the bondholders, which was evidenced by over 90 per cent, of the bondholders depositing their bonds with the Committee. The Bankers' Committee are understood to be in constant touch with the Mexican Government with a view to re-opening negotiations for a new settlement of the debt.
I have no information as to the number of meetings which were held during the past year, nor as to the date of the last meeting. The hon. Member will understand that His Majesty's Government, having no locus standi, cannot demand that the Committee shall furnish them with information as to these negotiations, or with reports on progress. So far as I am aware, no report on the present position has been issued. The decision as to publishing any such report is, in the first place, a matter for the Committee, and it would evidently be improper for His Majesty's Government to lay a report unless the Committee desired that it should be made public. If the hon. Member desires further information I will place him in touch with the secretary of the British section of the Committee.
May we take it that the right hon. Gentleman and the Government will do all in their power to get these just claims acknowledged and paid as soon as possible?
I am afraid that we have not very much power, but, as I have said, if the hon. Gentleman desires it, I will put him in touch with the official, and he will see what he is able to do.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the report of this committee has, in fact, been published in America for some months past, and cannot he make representations to the British Ambassador that at least the Government should be furnished with copies?
I am afraid that I cannot add to the answer which I have given.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that the interest on the Mexican National Packing Company's bonds, which was guaranteed by the Mexican Government, has been in arrears since 1914; that the property of the company has been seized by the Mexican Government; and whether he will make representations to that Government in respect of these matters?
The answer to the first two parts is in the affirmative. As regards the last part, His Majesty's Government are considering, in consultation with the representative of the bondholders, the advisability of making official representations on the subject to the Mexican Government.
Is it the case that the Mexican Government have seized the whole of this property and are working it and making profits, but are paying no interest on the bonds?
I am afraid that I must have notice of that question.
Why does the right hon. Gentleman interfere to protect British subjects in this matter and leave an International Commission to protect British subjects in other matters in the same country?
There is nothing about that in the original question. If the hon. Gentleman desires the information and will give me notice, I will ascertain it.
Are we to understand that we are to look for protection of British subjects to international com- missions rather than to His Majesty's Government?
Hon. Members are asking for replies to questions which do not arise out of the question on the Order Paper.
China and Russia
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can give any information to the House in relation to the present fighting in Manchuria between the Soviet and Chinese forces?
On 17th November six Soviet aeroplanes bombarded Mutantsiang, 125 miles west of the Eastern frontier of Manchuria, and did considerable damage to the Chinese aerodrome. On the Western frontier, a passenger train proceeding east was hit by Soviet gunfire some 35 miles from Manchouli, and was looted with considerable loss of life. The Soviet forces have now captured Manchouli and Chalai Nor. Tsagan, about 50 miles east of the western frontier, has been evacuated by the Chinese forces, and the railway is now functioning only to Hailar, on which Soviet forces are alleged to be advancing.
Has the right hon. Gentleman any information as to the allegations that the Soviet forces, by destroying the pumping machinery at the mines, have caused the loss of life of a number of civilians?
I have no official information. I have seen a statement in the Press.
Are not these actions a distinct breach of the Kellogg Pact?
In view of this militarism and these war-like preparations against a civilian population, is the right hon. Gentleman still determined on behalf of the Government, to recognise the Soviet Government?
Has the right hon. Gentleman taken any steps to call the attention of the League of Nations to this matter as being an infringement of the terms of the Covenant?
The information on which this question is based only appeared in the Press this morning, or over the week end, and I have had no time even to consider what action should be taken.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider what action the Government might take?
Will the right hon. Gentleman at all events give this House an assurance that he will investigate immediately such a serious breach?
I will treat this matter just as I would treat a similar matter if it were between two other nations.
Government Departments
Diplomatic Service (Motor Cars)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs why all motor cars supplied for the use of His Majesty's Ambassadors and Ministers abroad are not of British make; and will he give the necessary instructions to ensure that where there is a motor car which is not made in Great Britain it shall be replaced by one of British make at the first convenient opportunity?
It has always been the policy to supply British cars whenever this is practicable, but difficulties with regard to service facilities and the supply of spare parts occasionally render this course impossible. This is also the reason why I must regretfully decline to give any undertaking that in all cases foreign cars shall be replaced by cars of British make.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that for our accredited representatives to foreign countries to have foreign cars is a very bad advertisement for the cars of our own country?
I think I have admitted that in the answer, but we cannot do the impossible.
Under-Secretaries of State
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the fact that the number of Under-Secretaries of State in the present House of Commons is in excess of the number permitted by the Secretaries of State Act, 1926; and, seeing that the Under-Secretaries of State for Home Affairs, Foreign Affairs, Dominions, Colonies, Air, India and Scotland are individually liable to a fine of £500 for each day on which they have sat or voted during the present Parliament, what steps does he propose to take in the matter?
Yes, Sir. A Bill of Indemnity will be required. There are several precedents. It will be introduced at once, and a settlement of the present situation is being sought in the meantime.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say how the mistake arose, seeing that the Attorney-General is supposed to advise the Government?
All these matters can be raised on the Second Reading, but I may inform the hon. and gallant Member that the mistake arose because the authority consulted had given his opinion before 1926.
Has the right hon. Gentleman picked out the Under-Secretary who was particularly liable?
I am the responsible person.
Tax Office, Camberwell
asked the First Commissioner of Works whether he is aware that the office accommodation at No. 1, Peckham Road, S.E.5, provided for His Majesty's inspector and staff of the Camberwell Income Tax district, is seriously defective and prejudicial to health as regards lighting, heating, ventilation and lavatory accommodation; and whether it is proposed to secure new and satisfactory offices?
I am aware that the office accommodation provided for the Camberwell Income Tax District at No. 1, Peckham Road, S.E.5, is defective as regards heating, ventilation and lavatory accommodation. Steps are being taken to hire suitable alternative accommodation but it has not yet been possible to secure suitable premises.
Naval and Military Pensions and Grants
Seven Years' Limit (Abolition)
19, 20 and 21.
asked the Minister of Pensions (1) whether he will give the House more information regarding the arrangements made for securing the assistance of independent advice in over seven years' cases from medical experts nominated by the Presidents of the Colleges of Physicians and Surgeons; whether the advice of the experts will be accepted and acted on by the Ministry; and whether all cases recommended, after investigation, by local war pension committees where he is not able to agree with the Ministry decision will be referred to the independent experts;
(2) what is the method he intends to adopt in order to ensure that applicants for pensions outside the seven years' limit are given explicit opportunity to produce evidence;
(3) whether, in view of the fact that it is proposed to make use of the statutory powers of the local war pension committees to hear and investigate causes of complaint from dissatisfied applicants in connection with the over seven years' cases, he will take steps to ensure that the fullest possible information is placed at the disposal of the war pension committees, especially where their recommendations are not accepted by headquarters, in order that the committees may be in a position to deal with and investigate cases of complaint?
I think it will be convenient if I answer the hon. and gallant Member's three questions together, as all three relate to the procedure of application in this class of case. It is not in my judgment practicable or desirable at this stage to define minutely the procedure on points which experience alone can properly determine. I may say, however, that all applicants will be expressly invited by the Area Offices of the Ministry to state their own cases in writing and to furnish evidence in support of them. Free use will be made of the advice of the independent medical experts alluded to in all cases where there is material conflict of evidence, including cases recommended after due investigation by war pension committees, and the fullest weight will be given to their advice, though I am naturally unable, consistently with my own responsibility in the matter, to bind myself to accept their opinion in every case. War pension committees will, as far as possible, be made acquainted with the grounds for rejection of any case recommended by them after investigation where they may find this information necessary in order to assist them in dealing with renewed applications.
Is the right hon. Gentleman really satisfied that the net result of this is very different from the procedure under the late Government?
Yes, Sir; if I were not so satisfied, I should not have taken the responsibility of giving the answer that I have given.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say in what way this is different from the procedure under the late Government? To most of us it seems the same.
I believe I answered that particular question.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he could get the British Legion to supply the information?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we have already felt the effects of this change in cases which he has had before him?
Have any arrangements been made as to how medical experts will be selected for Scotland?
Perhaps my hon. and learned Friend will give me notice of that question.
asked the Minister of Pensions the terms of the instructions issued to pension committees on the subject of the waiving of the seven years' limit, indicating any variations between the proposals in this document and the previous practice of the Ministry of Pensions?
The instructions which are in preparation will indicate both the manner and the object of the investigation to be applied by War Pensions Committees in regard to any case submitted to them by a dissatisfied applicant who may prefer to use this method of approach to the Ministry.
As no instructions on this subject have previously been issued to War Pensions Committees, the latter part of the question would not appear to arise.
Is it not the fact that it was admitted by the statement of the right hon. Gentleman to the ex-service men last week that there is really no material difference between the position under this Government and the late Government?
Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the two main points in his recent answer, namely, complaints of local War Pensions Committees and the granting of War pensions on production of adequate evidence, were in operation under the late Government?
I do not think my right hon. Friend's supplementary question comes within the scope of the answer which has been given. I was asked whether this makes any material difference and whether I was not misleading ex-service men. My answer is that if I thought I were misleading ex-service men I should not hold this position.
In view of the statement that he was not misleading ex-service men, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman why he informed the House that a number of cases had been considered by the late Government when the actual facts are that some hundreds of cases had been granted?
I have still to be convinced that that supplementary question comes within the scope of the last answer; it belongs to the first one; but I have not the slightest objection to answering it. I said in my answer last week that I was proposing to extend and amend the regulations which had been adopted by my right hon. Friend, and if he will look at my answer I think he will see that that is the case.
Ranker Officers (Gratuities)
asked the Minister of Pensions by what authority ranker officers, who have voluntarily retired from the Army and have been sub- sequently awarded disability pay, have been required to refund their service gratuities?
Under the terms of Article 1A of the Royal Warrant of the 2nd July, 1920, as amended by that of the 9th November, 1923, an officer who retires voluntarily is eligible only for either the service award appropriate for his voluntary retirement or for the disability rate proper to his disablement, unless he is pronounced to have been permanently unfit for general service on retirement, in which case an addition for disablement may be made to his service award.
Alternative Pensions
asked the Minister of Pensions if he will consider the question of extending applications for alternative pensions where the applicants were not aware of the dates that applications closed, in order to prevent undue hardships existing?
Full information as to the alternative pension and the procedure for claim was given to every pensioner individually and was also widely advertised in the Press, and I should have no authority to adopt the course suggested.
Trade and Commerce
International Exhibition, Barcelona
asked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department on what grounds His Majesty's Government decided not to participate in the International Exhibition at Barcelona; whether this exhibition was considered to offer less opportunity for increasing the sales of British goods in world markets than the international exhibitions at Paris and Dunedin, New Zealand, in 1925; and whether it is proposed to participate in the forthcoming exhibition at Stockholm?
In reply to the first two parts of the question I must refer the hon. Member to the reply given by my predecessor to a question put on 17th December, 1928, a copy of which I am sending him. In reply to the third part of the question I am informed that the forthcoming exhibition at Stockholm will be confined to Swedish products.
Import Duties, Argentina (Fabrics Bill)
asked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether he can give any information concerning a reduction by 50 per cent. of the duties on fabrics and artificial silk imported into the Argentine Republic from Great Britain?
I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given on 21st November to the hon. Member for Wimbledon (Sir J. Power) of which I am sending him a copy.
Empire Teade
asked the Prime Minister whether in view of the importance of the question of Empire trade, he will consider giving a day for its discussion?
I regret that, owing to the state of Parliamentary business, of which the House is well aware, I can hold out no hope of time being given for the discussion of this subject.
In view of the importance attached by the Lord Privy Seal to his scheme, does not the right hon. Gentleman think it proper, having regard to the need for a remedy for unemployment, that we should have a thorough discussion of this matter?
That is not a question that can be answered now.
Agriculture
Imported Produce
asked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether in the trade agreement now being negotiated with the Argentine, any provision will be made to prevent the importation from that country of bounty-fed cereals?
No, Sir.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, owing to treaty restrictions, we are unable to do anything with regard to Germany, and will he see that those circumstances cannot possibly occur in the Argentine?
No bounty is paid in the Argentine at the present time, and there is no likelihood of any being paid in the near future.
Yes, but is the hon. Member not aware that, when the German treaties were signed, there were no bounties paid, and it is because of those treaties that we are unable to contest them?
I am afraid that I can add nothing to the answer which I have already given.
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he has any information as to any system of bounty, drawback, export licence, or similar assistance whereby wheat and/or flour may be exported to this country from France?
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is aware that the Government of France has, in consequence of large surplus stocks of wheat in that country, just elaborated measures to assist the wheat export trade; and whether he is able to assure the House that steps will be taken to meet the danger of the export of wheat to this country under similar conditions to those complained of in regard to German wheat?
I am making inquiries, and will communicate the results to the hon. Members as soon as possible.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether the amount now being imported is in excess of the usual quantities?
That is another question which hardly arises on this question.
In view of the fact that a fortnight ago the Minister of Health described the position as appalling, and in view of the fact that the Cabinet of Germany have apparently decided to increase the bounty, what action is he going to take?
I think that ought to be the subject of another question.
asked the Minister of Agriculture what steps he proposes to take to safeguard the interests of farmers in this country in view of the terms of the agreement made with the Argentine Republic whereby exports of agricultural products from that country are to be guaranteed every facility for entry into this country in exchange for corresponding facilities for exports of textile goods from this country?
As my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade has already explained in reply to a question by the hon. Member for Wimbledon (Sir J. Power), the decree by virtue of which the Argentine duty on British artificial silk goods is reduced will become effective on receipt of a declaration, on behalf of His Majesty's Government in Great Britain, that it is not their intention to impose duties or restrictions, except those that may be necessary on sanitary grounds, on the importation of certain Argentine food products. This declaration would express the policy of the present and of the late Government, and does not create any new situation
Can the right hon. Gentleman say what steps he proposes to take to safeguard the British farmer from bounty-fed cereals, should they come?
That is a hypothetical question; no new situation has arisen.
In view of the vague term "any restrictions," may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the Dominions —Canada, Australia, New Zealand—have been consulted in regard to the possible effects of this convention upon the Imperial Economic Conference?
Perhaps the hon. Member will put down another question; it hardly arises on this one.
Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Argentine Government imposes an export duty on shipments of pastoral and rural produce?
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is aware that a large amount of the wheat which is being imported into this country from Germany is being produced as the result of the labour of women and girls who work for nine hours a day for 3d. per hour; and if he will consider taking steps to prohibit the importation of wheat into this country which is produced under labour conditions of this description?
I regret that the information at my disposal does not enable me either to accept or to deny the statement in the first part of the hon. and gallant Member's question. As regards the second part, it is not proposed to take any action on the lines suggested.
Will the right hon. Gentleman make inquiries on this matter?
Yes, certainly.
Considering that the British farmer has to compete with the importation of wheat produced under the terms referred to in the first part of this question, may I press the right hon. Gentleman to make inquiries, and either refute or confirm the statement in the first part of my question? It is only fair that we should know.
I shall be very glad to secure any information that can be secured.
I beg to give notice that I shall put the question down again, in the hope that the right hon. Gentleman will be able to make inquiries.
Argentine Hay (Import Prohibition)
asked the Minister of Agriculture if the importation of hay into this country from the Argentine is prohibited in view of the prevalence of foot-and-mouth disease in that country?
The importation of hay into Great Britain from the Argentine Republic is prohibited by the Foreign Hay and Straw Order of 1912, which was made by the Ministry to prevent the risk of the introduction of foot-and-mouth disease by that material. The Order exempts from the prohibition hay which at the time of importation is being used for packing merchandise.
Government Proposals
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether, apart from the general agricultural policy of the present Government, he intends to take any special and immediate steps to relieve the present distress in that industry?
asked the Minister of Agriculture if, in view of the apprehension of the farmers and farm workers of East Anglia at the failure of His Majesty's Government to announce any part of their agricultural policy, he will say whether the Government intends to introduce any proposals dealing with the agricultural industry of this country?
I cannot accept the suggestion that the agricultural industry on the whole is in such distress as to demand special and immediate relief measures. While I view with great regret the depression in some sections of the industry, I would remind hon. Members that in other sections no depression exists. The Government have already announced a number of proposals for the benefit of the industry including comprehensive legislation to deal with arterial land drainage, the framing of a scheme of unemployment insurance for agricultural workers, the active extension of the movement for the better marketing of agricultural produce, and the provision of a capital grant of £500,000 to the Development Fund, of which approximately one-half will be for agricultural purposes.
Is the Minister of Agriculture prepared to consider taking some measure to help those areas where there is great depression?
The measures which I have announced as being part of the Government programme will undoubtedly be of great help to those districts.
Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that very considerable depression exists in East and North East Anglia which is a corn-growing country?
I have already said that I deeply regret that there are corn-growing districts in which depression exists, but it would not be correct to describe that depression as being general.
What steps has the right hon. Gentleman taken, in conjunction with the Prime Minister, to see whether anything can be done to relieve the agricultural industry from the imposition of a bounty on imported foodstuffs; and will he consult his right hon. Friend as to whether a tax on a bounty is not entirely different from a tax on food?
That ought to be the subject of a separate question, and it hardly arises on this one.
Think it out!
When shall we know from the right hon. Gentleman what really is his agricultural policy?
In view of the chances of the ballot I should have thought that some Members of the party opposite would have brought forward a Motion dealing with this subject.
Does the Minister of Agriculture really mean that he is going to depend upon the chances of the ballot in order to announce his policy?
Foot-And-Mouth Disease
asked the Minister of Agriculture if he will consider the advisability of offering a prize to the research workers of the world for the purpose of eliminating foot-and-mouth disease or, alternatively, to set up a research department of the Ministry, with all available data that can be obtained through international medical research?
I do not think that the offer of a prize, however large, for the discovery of an effective means of controlling foot-and-mouth disease would be likely to advance that object. As regards the latter part of the question, a Foot-and-Mouth Disease Research Committee, consisting of eminent scientists in both human and veterinary pathology was appointed by myself in 1924 to conduct research into this question. The Committee has already published three progress reports, and their investigations are continuing. This Committee takes full cognisance of all available data obtainable from any part of the world.
In reference to the latter part of the question, will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to ensure more continuous services of research workers on foot-and-mouth disease than the report shows to have been the case?
The services ought to be continuous and assiduous, and eminent men are engaged in them.
Does not the report show that a great many research workers have left that particular research work a few months after starting it?
Has the Minister of Agriculture had his attention drawn to the reported success of measures taken against foot-and-mouth disease, I think, two years ago in India?
Yes, they have been very carefully followed.
asked the Minister of Agriculture if he is aware that the spread of foot-and-mouth disease is, in the opinion of many farmers affected, caused by foxes, hares and other game; and whether he will consider isolation as a definite experiment in combating the next outbreak?
The possibility that foot-and-mouth disease may be spread by foxes, hares or other game is always borne in mind in the inquiries instituted in connection with every outbreak of the disease, but no evidence has been obtained connecting them with any outbreak. The adoption of isolation of affected animals as an alternative policy to that of slaughter was carefully considered by the Departmental Committee on Foot-and-Mouth Disease which reported in 1925. That Committee came to the conclusion that until a preventive agent has been discovered isolation could not be regarded as an alternative to the present policy.
Eggs
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he has received any complaints of lack of care by the railway companies in the handling of eggs packed in cardboard containers; and whether he is aware of the great advantage to poultry keepers of the use of cardboard containers provided that due care is exercised during their transit by rail?
Complaints have, from time to time, reached my Department concerning the handling on rail of eggs packed in cardboard containers. I am fully alive to the advantage to the egg industry of this type of container, which is one of the standard types of non-returnable package specified in the National Mark Egg Scheme.
asked the Minister of Agriculture what has been the average retail price of British eggs in London, for each month, since the introduction of the egg-marking scheme?
I regret that this information is not available.
Can it be procured?
The Ministry of Labour collects information as to retail prices, but not separately of British prices.
Oats (Army Contracts)
asked the Minister of Agriculture if he is aware that Army horses are being fed upon imported bounty-fed German oats; and, if so, will he make representations to the Secretary of State for War that in the interests of the farmers and farm workers of the United Kingdom only home-grown oats should be purchased?
All current Army contracts are for the supply of homegrown oats. The second part of the question, therefore, does not arise.
Prices (Standardisation)
asked the Prime Minister whether, looking at the serious state of agriculture and in view of the fact that the remedy of standardised prices receives support, not only from agriculturists but also from Members of different parties in this House, he will give an opportunity for debating this matter?
I would refer the right hon. and gallant Member to the answer which I gave on the 7th November in reply to a question by the hon. Member for Eye (Mr. Granville).
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Government are considering this question or not?
I think that, if the hon. Member will turn to the answer to which I have referred, he will find that that point is covered.
Land Drainage
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he will present the proposed Land Drainage Bill, so that the text may be available to Members before the Committee stage of the Coast Protection Bill is taken?
I am afraid I am unable to give the undertaking desired.
Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that, under the Coast Protection Bill, fresh authorities are set up, and the same authorities have in many cases to deal with both drainage and coast erosion, and therefore the Drainage Bill will have a material bearing on the Coast Protection Bill?
The new Drainage Bill involves highly complicated work, and I am afraid it will not be expedited to the extent desired by the hon. Member.
Is it proposed to go on with the Coast Protection Bill in view of the opposition raised?
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether, in view of the heavy additional expenditure incurred by the farmers of Little Thetford since 1919 on extensive repairs to banks and the installation of a new pumping plant and drains, steps will be taken to lighten the drainage taxes which, in that district, amount to nearly 30s. per acre, as has been done in the case of Booking-ham?
The Ministry has already made grants amounting to £1,550 towards the cost of installing new pumping plant, and the improvement of drains, in this district, and is prepared to make a further grant of 50 per cent. of the cost, estimated at £1,200, of completing the scheme of works which the Drainage Commissioners have in view.
Housing
Clapham Road Site
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether it is proposed to utilise the large area of land fronting Stockwell Road tube station, Clapham Road, which was acquired by the Commissioner of Crown Lands for dwellings for working-class tenants; and can he state when the commencement of the erection of these dwellings will take place?
I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave to a similar question on the 25th July last, to which I have nothing to add. I am sending my hon. Friend a copy of the answer in question.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the plans are being prepared for this housing scheme?
Yes, I believe so, but they are being prepared in conjunction with the Ministry of Transport which is chiefly responsible.
Is the Minister of Transport responsible for housing in this particular district?
That question should be addressed to the Minister of Transport.
Holbrooks Estate, Coventry
asked the First Commissioner of Works what was the total amount paid by the Holbrooks Housing Estate, Coventry, for the land (acreage) and the hutments (number) standing thereon; whether the sum of £8,000, shown in the published Reports of the Select Committee on Accounts dealing with these Office of Works transactions represents the total amount paid by the purchasers; and, if not, what other amounts were paid for the land and hutments in question and now in the possession of the Holbrooks Housing Estate Company?
The estate was sold in three parts in 1928. About eight acres of land with 230 houses were sold for £8,000 as stated in the Appropriation Accounts for 1927. About three acres of land, with 89 houses, were sold to the Coventry Corporation and I understand that my hon. Friend has information as to the price paid. The remainder of the estate (147 houses and a factory) was sold by the Secretary of State for War, to whom my hon. Friend will perhaps direct inquiries.
Electoral Law (Conference)
asked the Prime Minister whether the conference on electoral reform has now been constituted and the names of the members; and whether any intimation has been given to the conference as to the order in which, and the time within which, it is desirable that consideration should be given to, and a report made upon, the several issues falling within the purview of the conference?
I understand that invitations will be issued to the selected Peers and Members of the House of Commons very shortly. The reply to the second part of the question is in the negative.
Royal Navy
Bermuda and Jamaica Bases
asked the Prime Minister if he can give an assurance that no decision has been taken to close the minor naval bases of Bermuda and Jamaica and that, before any such decision is taken, this House will have an ample opportunity of discussing the matter?
I have been asked to reply. As regards the first part of the question, no decision has been taken of the nature indicated, and there is no intention of taking such a decision. The second part of the question, therefore, does not arise.
Dress Regulations (Medals)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, in view of a general desire on the part of petty officers and men of the Royal Navy, as expressed in a general welfare request, he will amend the present dress Regulations to read that for lower-deck ratings medals be worn only at inspections and on ceremonial occasions, when No. 1 or No. 6 dress is worn, and on all other occasions and when proceeding ashore on leave medal ribbons to be worn?
The wearing of medals on Sundays in harbour and on week-end leave is regarded by many as a privilege, and I am not inclined to withdraw it.
Officers' Servants, Whale Island (Pensioners)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the naval and marine pensioners who have relieved active-service ratings as officers' servants at Whale Island and His Majesty's ship "Vernon" naval establishments are insured for unemployment, observing that active-service officers' servants are included in the scheme for unemployment like all other ratings?
As the employment of these pensioners is of the nature of domestic service, they are excepted from unemployment insurance under Part II ( b ) of the First Schedule of the Unemployment Insurance Act of 1920.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that naval and marine pensioners are being entered at Whale Island and His Majesty's ship "Vernon" naval establishments as officers' servants in lieu of active-service ratings and that the weekly wage is £2 2s.; and why this is done, in view of Item 53 of the Report of the Jerram Committee, which says that pensions shall not be taken into account when pensioners are employed by the Admiralty, observing that the pay of an unskilled labourer in His Majesty's dockyard, who works considerably less hours, is at a higher rate?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The wages mentioned by the hon. Baronet are without taking into account quarters and uniform, which are provided free of charge. When these items are taken into account, the emoluments of these mess servants are not lower than those of labourers in His Majesty's dockyard. Pensions were not taken into account in fixing these rates of pay.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are not any married quarters, and that most of these men are family men?
The whole of the circumstances, including quarters, are taken into account, but I can assure the hon. Member that in fixing the rate of pay pensions have not been taken into account, and that the rate of wages is quite fair.
Is it not a fact that they get their food in addition?
Naval Conference
asked the Prime Minister whether, as a consequence of the decision to exclude the question of the freedom of the seas from the purview of the forthcoming Five-Power Naval Conference, he can assure the House that the suggestion that ships conveying food shall not be subject to the laws of blockade is also excluded?
The President of the United States, in his Armistice Day speech, declared, with reference to his proposal regarding the immunity of food-ships, that this was not a question for the consideration of the forthcoming Naval Conference. With this view His Majesty's Government are in full agreement.
asked the Prime Minister whether he can now give the names of the delegation which will represent the British Empire at the London Naval Conference and the names of the naval advisers who will assist the delegation on technical matters?
Perhaps the hon. Member would be good enough to put down his question about the beginning of next week, when I would hope to be in a position to give him a reply.
Public Assistance
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the Government's declared intention to co-ordinate the various forms of social insurance, he will also consider the desirability of legislation which will transfer the control of public assistance from the House of Commons to a commission entirely independent of political and electoral influences?
I fear that I am unable to adopt this proposal.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that the inevitable result of the policy of the Government must be to turn a large number of constituencies into Treasury boroughs; and does he not think that this would bring Parliamentary government into contempt?
Privy Council Appeals (Irish Free State)
asked the Prime Minister whether he has received any communication from the Government of the Irish Free State to the effect that it does not intend in the future to respect the jurisdiction of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council and whether he contemplates introducing legislation to amend the Irish Free State (Agreement) Act so as to exclude appeals to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council from the Irish Free State?
asked the Prime Minister whether any recent communication has been made from the Government of the Free State concerning appeals from the Supreme Court of the Free State to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council; and whether he proposes to take any action in the matter?
asked the Prime Minister whether he has received any communication from the Government of the Irish Free State with reference to appeals to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council; and what action the British Government are taking in this matter?
No communication of the nature mentioned in the questions has been received from His Majesty's Government in the Irish Free State; the second parts of the questions do not, therefore, arise.
Has not the right hon. Gentleman observed the statement, which has been very widely published, of the Minister in the Irish Free State, dealing very extensively with this matter and practically repudiating any possibility of an appeal from the Irish Free State to the Privy Council?
I answer questions here as Prime Minister, not as a casual newspaper reader.
In view of the Prime Minister's reply, may I ask your guidance, Mr. Speaker, as to how a question of this kind can be raised, where a responsible Minister of the Irish Free State Government, speaking from his place in the Senate, made a most formal, definite, categorical statement that that Government intends to repudiate an important part of the Treaty, thereby raising an important constitutional point which affects not only the Irish Free State but this country? How can that question be raised if the Prime Minister persists in his attitude of sheltering himself by saying that he does not answer questions as a newspaper reader?
I do not know how that question could be raised. The right hon. Gentleman says that he has no official information on this subject.
Will the right hon. Gentleman obtain this information?
Why should he?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, in the published Official Reports of the Irish Free State Parliament, notice was given that in future, if any British citizen in the Irish Free State were to obtain a judgment in the Privy Council, legislation would be introduced to deprive him of the effect of that judgment, and is not that a direct breach of the Irish Free State Constitution Act passed by this House?
On a point of Order. Have you not frequently ruled, Sir, that Debates in the Dominion Parliaments are not competent to be discussed in this House?
I cannot see how the Prime Minister can take any action unless he has official information.
Might I have your Ruling on the point, Sir?
It would be contrary to all precedent to refer to or discuss what takes place in the Dominion Parliaments.
May I be forgiven for asking a further question as the matter, I think, is one of great constitutional importance. I am well aware that you, Sir, and your predecessors have frequently ruled that Ministers here are not responsible for action within the jurisdiction of the Dominion Parliaments, and that such matters are not proper subjects of question and answer. In the present case, we have to deal with a Treaty passed by this House which was a condition of the establishment of the Free State Government, and it is alleged that there is shown in the Official Report of the Irish Parliament, by Ministerial declaration, an intention to break that Treaty. Is not that a proper subject for a question in the House?
What I have already said on the subject is that the Prime Minister has said that he has no official information. Also, I think, it would be a dangerous precedent to discuss such matters in this House which arise in the Dominion Parliaments. I could not on the spur of the moment give a Ruling on a constitutional question of that kind. If the question is raised, perhaps, in a few days' time, I should be in a better position to give a Ruling.
I beg to give notice that I shall take the earliest opportunity of raising this question on the Adjournment.
Will the right hon. Gentleman inquire into the matter carefully and be prepared to give a considered reply in a few days' time?
Really, it must be obvious to everyone in the House that it is not my business to make these inquiries. If any Government, Dominion or otherwise, desires to make any change in anything whatsoever—or may I add to right hon. Gentlemen sitting opposite, desires to take any advantage of certain declarations made while they were in office—the communication must come officially to me, or the Dominions Office, before any action can be taken or any answer can be given decently to questions put in this House.
But is the Prime Minister aware that the Minister of the Free State said that, whether we made any change or no, the Free State Government would repudiate the jurisdiction of the Privy Council?
On a point of Order. Is it in order for the Noble Lord, after he has given notice that he will raise the matter on the Adjournment, again to raise it by question and answer?
It must be remembered that the Prime Minister made a further reply.
Fishing Industry
Shell Fish
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether the investigations set on foot by his Department in January of this year, as to the possibility of renewing and restocking the oyster fisheries off the North Norfolk coast, have resulted in a report being made by his Department; and, if so, whether he will publish the report in the immediate future?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. I am considering publishing the report in the Annual Report on Sea Fisheries for the current year, and in the meantime I have sent a copy to the hon. Member and to each member of the Oyster and Shellfish Planters' Association.
May I publish the report?
That hardly arises. The question only deals with publication by the Department.
If I may not publish it, what is the good of sending me the report to put it in a pigeon-hole?
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether, and, if so, when and where, he proposes to put into operation the results of the Conway researches into the cultivation of shell fish by arranging for the restocking and revival of the shell fisheries in suitable areas?
The investigations are not yet complete. It is, therefore, too early to consider the application of their results. But good progress has been made, and I have reason to hope for results of a practical character.
Committee of Inquiry
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether the Dundee whaling fishery will be one of the subjects coming up for inquiry by the Fisheries Committee?
This is clearly a matter for consideration by the Fisheries Committee itself.
Does the aright hon. Gentleman place the whaling industry as an in-shore fishery, as he did the herring fishery?
I have no knowledge of it.
Will the right hon. Gentleman inform the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture that the whale fishery is not an in-shore fishery?
asked the Minister of Agriculture if he will indicate the nature of the procedure to be followed before the Committee of Inquiry into the Fishing Industry; whether evidence will be heard in public; and what witnesses are to be invited to appear before the Committee?
The Fisheries Inquiry is being conducted by a Sub-Committee of the Committee of Civil Research, and its procedure will follow the general lines laid down for Sub-Committees of that body, which is a Standing Committee reporting to the Cabinet. Its procedure will be confidential and its meetings will be held in private. As regards the last part of the question, the hon. Member may rest assured that the Sub-Committee will make it their business to obtain full evidence on all branches of their inquiry. Bodies anxious to give evidence should communicate direct with the Sub-Committee at 2, Whitehall Gardens.
Herrings
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries the average distance off-shore at which the bulk of the herring landed during the recent fishing in East Anglia were caught?
The bulk of the herrings which have been landed in East Anglia during this seasons campaign have been caught at a distance of 30 to 35 miles from port.
Will the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to convey that information to the chairman of the recently appointed Fishery Committee?
Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that the chairman of the recently appointed Committee referred to the herring fishery the other day as an inshore fishery?
I understand that the Parliamentary Secretary referred to the fact that inshore fishermen engaged in the herring industry.
Sugar-Beet Factories (Effluents)
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether, in view of the Witham river fishery disaster, and without prejudice to any legal action arising therefrom, he will expedite his inquiries into the means of rendering the effluents from sugar-beet factories innocuous so that appropriate action may be taken by those factories that have not already done so at the earliest possible moment?
The Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries is not in a position to conduct inquiries into the treatment of factory effluents. Investigations of the purification of effluents from beet sugar factories are, however, being carried out by the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research with the co-operation of the industry, and are proceeding as rapidly as possible. The industry is being kept in close touch with the progress of the investigation. Other investigations are, I understand, being conducted by a committee appointed by the factory owners themselves.
Northern Rhodesia
asked the Prime Minister if the contemplated statement by him on the future government of East Africa will include proposals for the future government of Northern Rhodesia?
The answer is in the negative.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there has been a greater increase in the material development and population of this territory than of any comparable territory in Africa? Does he not think, under these circumstances, that, if he is going to make a statement on the future government of East Africa, it should include the question of the future government of Northern Rhodesia? Will the right hon. Gentleman give me an answer?
The answer is perfectly obvious. We are dealing with the report of a Committee or Commission, appointed by our predecessors, relating to the government of East Africa, and that report is the basis of what we shall have to decide and subsequently report to the House.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Commission itself visited Livingstone and made considerable reference to the future government of Northern Rhodesia in its report?
House of Commons (Procedure)
asked the Prime Minister whether any change in the number of Standing Committees, and of their rules of procedure, is in contemplation with a view to relieving congestion of business on the Floor of the House?
asked the Prime Minister whether the Government intends to submit to the House proposals for improving the procedure of the House so as to avoid all-night sittings; to secure that the House through appropriate Committees is able to deal more rapidly yet more efficiently with the large volume of legislation at present held up for lack of Parliamentary time; and to provide more effective control of the Public Departments by Parliament?
I would refer to the answer which I gave on Thursday last to my hon. Friend the Member for East Leicester (Mr. Wise). I have noticed that my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) intends to raise the question on a Motion on 18th December, so that the House will then have an opportunity of discussing it.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that it is very unfortunate, but I shall not be able to raise it? I shall not be in England.
Regent's Park (Games)
asked the First Commissioner of Works what provision is made by his Department for playing football, cricket and other games in Regent's Park; and what is the cost incurred by such provision?
Facilities are provided in Regent's Park for playing football, cricket, lawn tennis, hockey, lacrosse, netball and other organised games. There are 15 football pitches, 20 cricket pitches and 10 hard tennis courts. It is difficult to state exactly how much the provision of these facilities costs, but it is very roughly £1,000 per annum, including about £500 per annum for the maintenance of the hard tennis courts.
Royal Parks (Improvement Schemes)
asked the First Commissioner of Works whether it is his intention to carry out any improvement schemes in the Royal Parks in addition to those which are being paid for out of funds raised from the public for the purpose of assisting the unemployed; if so, what will be the cost of such schemes; and how many men are likely to be employed?
In addition to the schemes in the Royal Parks, which are being paid for out of public funds provided by generous donors, with the addition of a Treasury grant, and which were set out in my reply of the 4th instant to the hon. Member for Richmond (Sir N. Moore), I have put before the Lord Privy Seal proposals for the improvement of the amenities of these parks and open spaces, amounting to £23,000. This sum would, it is estimated, give employment to about 550 men for a period of 13 weeks. So soon as a decision is reached, the work will start.
Women Jurors
asked the Attorney-General whether his attention has been called to recent judicial utterances concerning the Sex Disqualification Removal Act and to the fact that opportunity is being taken under an ancient right of challenge to object to women jurors as such; and whether the Government propose to make any proposals for amendment of the law with a view to carrying out the intentions of Parliament?
I have been asked to reply. An accused, whether a man or a woman, has certain rights of challenge and my right hon. Friend would not feel justified in proposing legislation interfering with those rights.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that I am not suggesting that? Is he aware of the difficulty that arose at the Central Criminal Court only a few weeks ago and of the observations of the learned Recorder with reference to this matter.
Yes, I am aware of that.
Is he not going to do something?
That is covered by the answer I have already given.
Surely the hon. Gentleman in his answer is giving me some statement of the law. Is he not aware that difficulty has arisen of a very considerable character, and is not the Home Office going to do something?
I am not aware that there is any difficulty.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Recorder distinctly pointed out the considerable difficulty in which he was in relation to that trial? Is he not aware of that fact?
Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that occasionally opportunity is taken of challenging male jurors in order to have women on the jury, and that the thing just balances itself out?
Palestine (Me. Bentwich)
( by Private Notice ) asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what is the latest information as to the attempted assassination of Mr. Norman Bentwich by an Arab police officer in Palestine and how Mr. Bentwich progresses?
The High Commissioner has informed the Secretary of State that Mr. Bentwich was shot at on Saturday in the Government offices by a civilian messenger of the Police Department who used a small automatic pistol. Three shots were fired, of which two missed. The third bullet penetrated the fleshy part of the thigh and has since been extracted. Mr. Bentwich, I am glad to say, is stated by the High Commissioner to be very little the worse for the attack and is expected to return to duty in the course of the week. The assailant is in custody.
May I ask the hon. Gentleman to get information on three points: In the first place, why was not police protection afforded to Mr. Bentwich and his wife in view of the many threats that have been made; in the second place, are any steps being taken to purge the police force of those who think it their duty either to murder Jews or to allow them to be murdered; and, lastly, what steps are being taken to bring to justice those who instigated these attacks, and not merely those who actually carried them out?
I believe that the only supplementary question which is relevant to the question on the Paper is the first one relating to police protection, and I am able to assure my right hon. and gallant Friend that the High Commissioner took steps weeks ago to see that police protection was given to Mr. Bentwich.
Is it not germane to the question that my hon. Friend should inquire in Palestine what is being done to punish those who instigate these murders?
I have given my answer. If my right hon. Friend had chosen to listen, he would have heard that the closing words were: "The assailant is in custody."
Are the people who instigated it in custody? Are those people who instigate these murders being proceeded against?
I have not the least doubt that inquiries will be made as to who did instigate such an attack, if there were instigators and they can be found.
Will the hon. Gentleman make inquiries now from the Palestine Government what steps they are taking in this matter?
I will consider that point raised by my right hon. and gallant Friend, and which he has raised, I believe, every time I have answered questions on Palestine.
In view of these continued attacks on members of the Jewish community, will the Government reconsider their policy of forcibly disarming the Jews in Palestine, and leaving the Arabs armed?
I think, during the time that this Commission of Inquiry is going into the matters referred to in Palestine, that we might leave that matter for them to inquire into.
Are we to take it that the Government are indifferent during the time that the Commission are making their inquiries?
Insured Workpeople (Statistics)
asked the Minister of Labour the total number of insured workpeople in Great Britain recorded as wholly unemployed or temporarily stopped from service of their employers as at the last convenient date?
At 21st October, 1929, the number of insured workpeople in Great Britain recorded as unemployed was 1,216,349, of whom 958,525 were wholly
— 23rd September, 1929. 21st October, 1929. Wholly Unemployed. Temporarily Stopped. Total Wholly Unemployed. Temporarily Stopped. Total Men (18–64) … 12,778 8,614 21,392 12,733 8,877 21,610 Boys (16–17) … 235 311 546 270 372 642 Women (18–64) 24,858 22,205 47,063 23,171 21,039 44,210 Girls (16–17) … 342 811 1,153 362 802 1,164 Total … 38,213 31,941 70,154 36,536 31,090 67,626
Coal Mines (Protection of Animals) Bill,
"to amend certain provisions of the Coal Mines Act, 1911, relating to the care and protection of horses and other animals used in mines," presented by Sir Robert Gower; supported by Captain Balfour, Lieut.-Colonel Moore, Sir George Jones, Dr. Davies, Major Graham Pole, Mr. Oliver Baldwin, Mr. Charleton, Mr. Bromley, Dr. Burgin, Mr. Simms, and Mr. Barr; to be read a Second time upon Friday, 7th February, and to be printed. [Bill 78.]
Business of the House
Ordered,
"That the Proceedings on Government Business be exempted, at this Say's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order
(Sittings of the House)."—[ The Prime Minister. ]
Standing Committees
Ordered,
"That all Standing Committees have leave to print and circulate with the Votes the Minutes of their Proceedings and any amended Clauses of the Bills committed to them."—[ Mr. Frederick Hall. ]
Orders of the Day
Unemployment Insurance (No. 2) Bill
Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment to Question [21st November], "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
Which Amendment was, to leave out from the word "That," to the end of the Question, and to add instead thereof the words:
"this House declines to give a Second Reading to a Bill which casts an unfair burden on the proposed new entrants into insurance by its proposals with regard to juvenile unemployment; alters the scales of benefit arbitrarily and without reference to recent scales laid down after careful and impartial inquiry; is calculated to produce administrative confusion by the vague and unsatisfactory nature of its tests as to whether an applicant for benefit is seeking employment, and to throw an impossible strain upon the adjudicating machinery; proposes to carry those who have fallen out of insurance wholly by an Exchequer grant without in any way facing the inevitable reorganisation of the whole system of insurance and social assistance entailed thereby; and which therefore imposes grave additional burdens on the country without doing anything to lessen unemployment."— [ Major Elliot. ]
Question again proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
During the Debate on this Bill last Thursday the House had the advantage of hearing a speech from the hon. Member for Bridge-ton (Mr. Maxton). The hon. Member is, if I may use the term, a rallying point in this House. We on this side unite with hon. Members opposite in our affection for his personality, our respect for his sincerity, and our admiration for his ability, but we disagree fundamentally with all his ideas. Perhaps in the latter respect we are not totally different from some right hon. Members opposite. The hon. Member, during the course of the Debate, advanced a theory which he has advanced on previous occasions and which, for the sake of brevity, I might call the theory of consumption. It is the theory that by taxation and by the redistribution of income through the social services you can artificially increase the consuming power of the country, with an effect upon the industrial situation. As I understand it, it is largely because of that belief that the hon. Member affords support to this Bill—true, a qualified support—support that he would afford to any Bill which has for its purpose an increase of the social services.
I do not want to worry the House this afternoon with arguments which have been advanced, and will be advanced again, against that theory, but I would point out that hon. Members have something better than arguments to look to; they have an example. They have an example of a country where this theory of the hon. Member has not been experimented with in a tentative way, but has been carried out to its ultimate logical conclusion—the example of Russia,— [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] I apologise to hon. Members opposite. There are people, not confined to any one party, who experience on the mention of the word "Russia" some of the repercussions of the ticklish school girl. We are having worked out before our eyes in Russia one of the greatest experiments in the history of the world, and are we, in deference to these sensitive people to remain blind to this experiment, or are we not to try to see if we cannot learn some lesson from it? If this theory of the hon. Member means that by equalising income you increase the consuming power, and that the completest equality of income means the maximum of national consuming power, then Russia has attained and has maintained that position. By her revolutionary decrees, by her confiscation of property she has established an almost complete equality of income. Since that time, whenever a Nepmau or Kula has shown by his energy and initiative ability to rise above the common level, he has been ruthlessly brought back to it.
What are the material results of this experiment? The doctrine of collective means may bring philosophic content to some, or the equality of poverty may be a moral satisfaction to others, but this is an economic question, and we have primarily to judge it by economic facts. Test the economic standard of Russia to-day by whatever test you like, by its production, its unemployment, its transport facilities, its standard of life, its conditions of labour, its quality of production, or its financial status, and I defy anyone to say that, tested by any one of these conditions, you will find the standard so superior to ours, so desirable, that in the hope of maintaining it we ought to take grave risks, or any risks at all.
In the last few weeks we have had in this House a Debate on the resumption of diplomatic relations with Russia. The Soviet Republic do not desire this friendship with us because they like it, because they like our people, or because they like our Government; it is because they need us. It is because this new consuming country has still to get from the old producing country the things that she has thrown away in putting her theories into execution—capital, credit, ability to produce manufactured goods of good quality at world competitive prices. With all their new ideas, with all their progressive economics, they have had to call the old world in to redress the balance of the new.
The hon. Member, in his speech, drew a picture of the poverty and misery of the unemployed to-day; a tragic picture in all conscience, even alleviated, as it may be, by what are the best social services in the world. There is another picture, an even more tragic picture, the picture of a country incapable of producing its own food, unable to buy from abroad, a country where the depression of some industries has become collapsible, where the problem of distressed areas has become the problem of a nation, and where the poor who are suffering from hunger are not numbered in their thousands or hundreds of thousands but in terms of the whole population—a country without hope. It because of that picture that we on these benches, although we are moved by the eloquence of the hon. Member, remain unconvinced by his argument.
4.0 p.m.
It appears that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is in much the same position. He is unconvinced by the arguments of the hon. Member, but he has been a little more moved. The irresistible force has moved the irremovable object, to the slight discomfiture of the latter. It may be true to say that in terms of cash this Bill represents only a slight slip on his part, that the Widows' and Orphans' Pensions Bill was only a slightly greater one, and that the school- leaving age, when it comes, will be only a slip on an even greater scale, but the three together ought to make something very considerable. It would be an impertinence on my part to offer advice to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I have not the courage to do so, but if I had the courage, I should like to say to him: "Do not attempt to conciliate the hon. Member for Bridgeton, because you will never do it. When you give him a little, he asks for more." If you give him more he will ask for all. When you have given him all, he will quietly suppress and supplant. I do not know whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer is a student of Kipling; I should think that probably he is not. But I remember a poem of Kipling's which deals with an event in our national history some 1,000 years ago. [ Interruption. ] I thought perhaps that was a period which would interest the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton).
I was thinking that the hon. Gentleman was about to refer to "the legions of the lost ones and the cohorts of the damned."
The hon. Member has not appreciated that I have passed from my references to his speech of Thursday last. The event to which I refer was a sort of early Hague Conference for war indemnities, where, unfortunately, the then custodians of the national purse did not show quite the same resolution as has been shown by some of their successors —the agreement for the payment of danegeld. As I remember it, the poem has a refrain something on these lines: like to put before the House certain objections in principle which I believe we hold upon our side.
There is, first of all, the question of principle that is raised with regard to the children, a subject which we know is to be debated very fully in Committee. I think it would be useful to know beforehand, not what the meaning of this Clause is, because that we can see, but what the intention of it is. Whom is it supposed to benefit, the child or the Fund? Is it the child? Is it an example of the right hon. Lady's generosity to the children, a sort of instalment of what the Socialists have done for the young, "to be continued in our next?" If so, I distrust the generosity. I think that the right hon. Lady, when she comes to giving, is a bit of a Greek. This seems to me rather like making a present to a friend of partly-paid shares in a company which is just on the point of compulsory liquidation—as you know and he does not. The really essential point of the whole of these changes lies, I think, in the Minority Report of what for short we call the Shaftesbury Committee. I think that the hon. Member, the Parliamentary Secretary, when he dealt with that report in his speech on Thursday, was a little cavalier with it. He said in effect, "Well, those who signed the Minority Report were not many in number, and even then they were only employed," and he meant it as sufficient explanation of their mental and moral attitude. I am concerned neither with their minds nor their I am interested only in their figures.
It is certainly remarkable that the figures which are given on page 12 of this Report have not been challenged from any quarter of the House. They show that, granted that the raising of the school age takes place, the shortage of juvenile labour rises from 373,000, which it would be to-day if we had the age of 15 in operation, to no less than 762,000 in the year 1934. It then falls, but falls to a minimum of a 298,000 shortage, and then begins to rise again. If we can assume these figures to be correct—and we are I think entitled to do so in the absence of any contradiction—one can see that after the raising of the school age, the fear of juvenile unemployment will have disappeared completely. That seems to me to bring about two things: First of all it entirely disposes of the idea that in bringing these children into the Insurance Act you are conferring any financial benefit upon them; their chances of unemployment are so remote that in fact they are merely to pay a contribution for which they will receive no benefit. The only ones upon whom you can confer a financial benefit are the very small minority who may be encouraged to try to evade the work which it would be easy enough for them to find.
But, beyond that, it seems to me to destroy what has been the real objection to the gap hitherto, which has been that when a child came out of school at 14 and was not under the Insurance scheme and therefore was not liable to pay contributions, he found employment which lasted until at the age of 16 he came under the scheme, and then for the sake of economy he was dismissed from his employment by his employer, who brought in a child of 14 in his place. That was the grave objection to the gap. But see how the position is changed. The economic advantage is no longer with the employer; it is going to be with the child. The employer will not be able to say, when the lad reaches the age of 16, "I shall get rid of this child because he has to go into the Insurance scheme," for the employer will not be able to get another child to take the vacant place. That seems to me really to cut the basis away from what was the gravest objection to the original Act. Of course the right hon. Lady the Minister of Labour may say that it is not for the benefit of the children at all, but for the benefit of the Fund. Well, it may be wise and prudent finance, but really if this great Fund, into which millions of contributors pay and out of which millions draw benefit, is to be buttressed and fortified by 4d. a week from the children of 15, I think she should make it plain to the country.
One ought to consider very carefully whether it is worth it, whether there is not at least some danger to the moral of the child, some harm likely to result from bringing the child into contact with the Employment Exchange, not as a helpful and paternal finder of jobs, but as the place for the sharing out of benefit. We should consider whether, however slight the danger may be, it is worth while running the risk for the sake of this small contribution to this enormous Fund. The second point relates to the increasing of benefit. Here, of course, we understand and we sympathise with the Minister's position. In order at least to give some appearance of carrying out election pledges, some benefits had to be raised, although I confess that I do not understand why the right hon. Lady should strain at this gnat when her colleague, the Parliamentary Secretary, seemed to swallow camels with ease and even appetite. Perhaps it has something to do with what we call the weaker sex ——[ Interruption ]. I am glad that the Noble Lady the Member for Sutton (Viscountess Astor) does not agree that ladies have any more difficulty than men in breaking their pledges.
We all have to do it.
What obviously happened here was that, with that in mind, the Minister of Labour determined to increase benefits. The Chancellor of the Exchequer allotted her a certain sum for the purpose, but the limits of the sum were such that it was impossible to spread the benefits over the wider classes of the insured population, and she was forced to select the particular classes upon whom the benefit should fall. In the Committee stage we will remember that the basis of the alteration is simply arithmetic.
The most important, perhaps, of these changes is the change with regard to the statutory conditions as to "not genuinely seeking work." Here it seems to me that the Government has given either too much or too little. If you treated this on the basis of a real insurance scheme, in which there was some relation between benefits and contributions, there would immediately be an automatic check. The credit which a man has piled up in the Fund in a way belongs to him. If he uses it improperly by drawing it when he is not entitled to it, he exhausts some part of that credit when in future he may really have need of it. In those cases I should say that the disqualification ought to ensue only on definite proof of the voluntary abandonment of a job or on definite proof of refusal to accept a job. But the position here is different. We have gone a long way in this Bill from an Insurance Bill. We are administering two things—an Insurance Bill and national relief under the same method. I think hon. Members will agree that in such a case some test is necessary. The question is, what is the test to be? The there were objections to the old test, everyone agreed. The greatest objection was that it tended to make the search for work perfunctory. If you sent a man out day after day to do the same round in unpleasant circumstances, when he knew and you knew that he was not going to get work there, you tended to take the heart out of him. The consequence was that what ought to have been a hopeful search for desired employment very often degenerated simply into the perfunctory performance of an almost meaningless task imposed by the Employment Exchange as a condition of benefit.
How does the change proposed in this Bill work? It seems to me that as the Clause is drafted it is capable of almost any interpretation. The vital words, of course, are that the claimant can reasonably have been expected to know that such employment was available. It seems tome that under these words you would be perfectly entitled to say to the man, "It was reasonable to expect that you should go on doing now the same old round that you used to do before this Bill, and if you had done that round you would in fact have found that the employment was available." It seems equally possible for you to say, "It is not reasonable to expect you to have known of the employment unless it was definitely brought to your notice, say by advertisement in the Employment Bureau." In other words, the test which is imposed by this Clause may either be the same old test as before or it may be no test at all. The right hon. Lady will no doubt send out her interpretation. We shall get that of the insurance officers and court of referees, and finally of the umpire. But, really, is that what we want? In a matter of this importance do we not want to get the interpretation of the Houses of Parliament?
The fourth and final thing on which we differ is the question of the transitional period, and there both the right hon. Lady and the Parliamentary Secretary have quite misunderstood our objections to this part of the Bill. We say that this is a great departure from previous practice and, as a great departure, it is also a great opportunity. Hitherto we have always kept to the idea, it might have been an illusion, of an insurance scheme. When uncovenanted benefit was introduced it was with the idea that in the future, when things improved, people who were drawing contributions to which they were not actually entitled would by their future contributions make that good. We started allowing the Fund to drift into debt with the idea that the debt would be gradually paid off. We have got right away from the principle of insurance, and on to national relief. I am not questioning the financial wisdom of that course. If you have decided that the Fund will never be capable of repaying its debt it is much better to face the fact, and simply meet your debt year by year. But see what an opportunity it gives. Hitherto Government has simply been distributing the expenditure under this Fund as trustee for a fund to which it is only one of three contributors. It has been limited by the terms of that trust as to the manner in which the money is expended. Now the contribution comes from the State alone, it has the opportunity from that limitation, being entitled to relieve the necessities of certain unemployed, to spend that money how it likes.
Does not that give certain opportunities? An hon. Member opposite made great play with the suggestion of my right hon. Friend with regard to local authorities. Was that suggestion really quite as ridiculous as the hon. Member tried to make out? Is it not conceivable that the Ministry of Labour, going through these people for whom this relief is designed, may see a certain number who through age or health or other causes are, in fact, unemployed, and never likely to be employed again or become part of an unemployment insurance scheme. Is it not possible that they may say that the amount of this Fund applicable to that portion is much better administered through local authorities with all their local resources? Is it not possible to take out the class of the young men with no dependents and say that the amount of the Fund applicable to these young men will be better paid out as part payment of wages on some national scheme than it would be in simple relief? Is it not possible that in the case of the more technical unemployed the Ministry might feel that their chances of finding employment would be greater through the craftsmen's union, that the union will be able to keep an eye upon them and see whether the skill they still possess entitles them to be classed as such craftsmen, and delegate the work of their relief to the union? It is also conceivable that you might capitalise part of this Fund and use it for grants in your afforestation settlements and upon the land. I do not say that all these suggestions are practicable but I think we are entitled to ask the right hon. Lady whether such matters have been considered and, if not, we are entitled to an explanation as to why none of these suggestions have been put before us. Do not let us forget that this is a very fine opportunity. When you administer these new principles under the old methods you will have less opportunity, and if you want to do something of that kind in the future it may be a great deal more difficult.
One final word. At the beginning of this Parliament the Prime Minister made a reference to his Council of State—a remarkable phrase; was it only a phrase? It conjured up in my mind the picture of a national emergency as great as the War, perhaps more dangerous because less clearly defined; an emergency transcending in its importance great party divisions, and therefore to be dealt with on national lines, suggestions to be made and discussed and accepted or refused on economic grounds alone. What have been the facts? This Council of State has spent a great many days in discussing whether the widow who happened 30 years ago to marry into the right set and can to-day satisfy the modern scruples of the Ministry of Health shall get 10s. a week: and we are going now to discuss whether a girl of 17 years of age shall get 2s. 6d. more and a boy of 15 4d. a week less. A prosperous agriculture might be the solution of our national difficulties, but the Council of State cannot waste a day on agriculture. Currency and credit might make all the difference between success and failure: but you cannot bother the Council of State with that. In fact, our only contribution to the great problem of the moment has been the one trip around the Empire with the Lord Privy Seal: in a very slow ship.
Is it not time right hon. Gentlemen opposite came off their perches? The right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), with all the powers at his command, and they are a considerable quantity, protested during the Debate on Thursday against the whole time of the House being occupied in considering Bills for increasing Government expenditure when we should be considering methods for increasing national income. With threatening forefinger and in pregnant silence, he warned the right hon. Gentlemen opposite of the awful things he would do to them, next time. With the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs it is always next time. I appeal to right hon. and hon. Members who sit beside the right hon. Gentlemen who applauded him; who agreed with him and who encouraged him, to do the only courageous thing, join with us now in bringing right hon. Gentlemen opposite. down to the ground, not next time, not some time, but now, by refusing a Second Reading to this patchwork Measure of a patchwork Government.
The hon. Member who has just sat down began by giving us a very interesting dissertation upon several interesting theories, and the unfailing courtesy with which he always treats us might have persuaded me to follow him, but I am unable to rid my mind of the fact that in this Bill the House is dealing with the welfare of hundreds and thousands of people and their dependents who are unemployed, and I feel that we must have this fact in the forefront of our discussions. The last time we had a serious discussion on unemployment we had a speech from the Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University (Lord H. Cecil), who gave us the most moving analysis of the despair and misery of the unemployed men that I have ever heard, but he followed it up with a strong and devastating attack upon the Government on purely party lines. The hon. Member for Westmorland (Mr. O. Stanley), when he approached the question of a Council of State, led me to hope that he was going to suggest that a spirit of sweet reasonableness might operate in the Second Reading of this Bill, but he proceeded to balance one thing against the other, referred to the welfare of children, girls of 11, and even to the widows who, he said, might have married into the right set, and ended his speech on a deplorable party note. That is the difficulty I find in this House continuously. We are first of all led into a newer atmosphere, but are brought back with a speedy cut down to the ordinary grounds of party politics. A spirit of forbearance on these matters would lead to much more useful discussions.
This Bill has been long looked for by many of us, and like most of the Bills promoted by the present Government has come in for a good deal of criticism. If I thought it represented the last word of my own Government on this matter I should be in despair. If I thought the persons responsible for it were any more satisfied with it than I am I should be uneasy, but in the fortunate circumstances which have called this party into office, in the course of which certain hon. Members have had to come from the back benches to the Front Bench, I do not think the Bill represents any change of heart. Right hon. and hon. Members have been asked to take upon themselves the responsibility of Government, but it does not mean that they are any less alive to the needs of our people or any less desirous to respond to that appeal. When we ask for the maximum and receive something less I am entitled to say that they have given us all that they reasonably can give at the moment, subject, of course, to further examination in Committee. We have been twitted from several parts of the House about what they call our instalment system. I think it is a very good thing to give some sort of a deposit in a case like this. It is an evidence of good faith. The right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) accused us of dealing on the instalment system. Does he want us to go to the length of delivering our goods in his own particular vans? Every time we bring forward something of advantage he claims it as his own particular proposal.
In this Bill we have a Measure which will deal with some of the outstanding difficulties of the present position. The hon. Member for Westmorland spoke about the entrance into insurance of young children. I did not quite understand him, and I hope I have not misunderstood him. I thought he said that there was likely to be no serious unemployment presently in view of the raising. of the school age, and I thought he suggested that this would be a sort of persistent temptation to young people to shirk opportunities of entering industry.
What I said was that the only people who could get any financial advantage out of this would be the few who would use it as an opportunity for evading employment.
I do not think there is any new principle involved in people entering into an insurance fund in the hope that they are themselves likely to benefit. I think there is something rather good in the idea of encouraging young people to pay for the benefit of older people and reminding them that some day they must become older and themselves become entitled to benefit. That is the sort of thing which I feel I would rather encourage than discourage. Within the last few days all hon. Members I am sure have had considerable correspondence about this question and the majority of the people who have written to me against this Measure have been employers whose real objection to it is that they will no longer be able to get very cheap child labour. I think it is rather a good thing that they will no longer be able to get it; and therefore I welcome this part of the Measure as a real step forward towards the protection of the children of this country. We here are very much for the protection of the children, where we can do it with justice to all the other legitimate claims upon the Department.
The next question which interests me is the question of the young people. As I came down Whitehall to the House this afternoon I heard the bells of St. Margarets ringing merrily, and as a professional person who, at times, has something to do with weddings those bells always have a cheering effect upon me. I feel 10s. already jingling in my pocket when I see the advertisements of the Bravington ring, and hear those bells, but there is a tragedy behind them—perhaps not just here, but in our industrial districts. There is the tragedy of people who, having been married in very poor circumstances, wish to goodness they had never met each other. There is the tragedy of those people waiting and waiting and waiting for homes of their own. It has been suggested—not by the hon. Member for Westmorland, but by-others—that a payment of 14s. to young people at 18 is a very big payment. When a suggestion of that kind is made by people who are always reminding us of the Empire, and of settling the people, and building up happy homes, I should like to ask, how on earth it can be contended that upon 14s. a week young people can begin to save for the home when they wish to settle down? I would rather feel that the payment of a reasonable sum was acting as an inducement to young people to save what they can— and they cannot save much out of this, I am sure—so that when they begin married life they can do so with some hope of remaining solvent and not of becoming an economic burden.
I have said what I have said about these young people because I feel that the young men in particular belong to a very lonely and ill-defended section of the community. Girls of 18 are in a much happier category. The popular Press is interested in them. It runs competitions for their benefit; it gives them very large prizes for their beauty, but the younger people of my own sex are left without such competitions. The same interest is not taken in them. I feel compelled therefore to say something on their behalf, but I would like to say something also about the girls of 18 who are now to receive this increased allowance. Those of us who have social work to do know that when you give an unemployed girl of 18, a pittance of 8s. a week it is the equivalent to asking her to supplement that meagre income in the most deplorable and most regrettable way. [HON. MEMBERS: "Nonsense."] There is no doubt about it at all. I am very thankful to know that in the homes of the working people, particularly in those homes where the fathers are in employment, and where there are brothers or sisters at work, there is always a willing disposition to help the feebler, the weaker, the less employable members of the family. But it is also the case that there are thousands of working-class homes in which no member of the family is earning anything, and the girls are compelled, in one way or another to supplement their incomes, and if for no other reason, I am profoundly thankful that the Government propose to augment this meagre sum of 8s. and to give them 12s. That is something at any rate.
Is the giving of 12s. going to prevent this deplorable thing?
I am not suggesting that it is, and I am very glad to hear that there is a likelihood of the Government being pressed from the other side to increase the sum still further.
If the last Government had not given this, would the hon. Member be prepared to say, as the Opposition in the last Parliament said against our Government, that if we did not give it, we were forcing girls on to the streets?
The Noble Lady may take it from me, that nothing that I say on these matters will be founded upon models taken from the other side.
I am not referring to what we said, but to what was said on the other side of the House.
The Noble Lady will realise that that was before I entered into this state of grace, and I am not responsible. I suggest that this increase from 8s. to 12s. will make things very much better for those girls. Then in regard to the proposal to increase the allowance for adult dependants, I think most of us realise the extreme difficulties with which old people have been confronted in the last few years. I have no desire to devote too much time to my personal experience—though, perhaps, it is the safest guide for one in dealing with these questions—but I remember very well, at the end of a service in a North of England town—I think it was Blackburn—an old man came to me in a state of great perturbation. He was practically without any sustenance, and he and his invalid wife were living with a married son, who was unemployed and who had a family of his own. However desirous of supporting his father a son might be under these conditions, we all know that every little hit going to the old parents in such circumstances means less for the small children. That man asked me, as a minister of religion, whether he was committing a grievous sin in praying that he and his wife might be taken out of this world.
I do not propose here to enter into the theological implications of that question, but I think it is a serious matter when a man, having given years of sober and industrious energy to the service of the community, comes to a condition in which there is really no hope for him; when old people in the position I have described, have to recognise that their descendants would be happier and better off if they were gone, and when the children know that, however much the family may wish to keep the parents, if those parents were removed the children would be better off.
There, you have the danger of the Empire crumbling—when a man has to choose, as tens of thousands of my fellow men are compelled to choose at present, between the mother who bore him and the children who are flesh of his flesh. This increase, small as it is, to dependent fathers, from 7s. to 9s. is to be welcomed; and the increase of 2s. in respect of dependent children will make a very large difference to those women who, nowadays, pretend to the father that they are going to have breakfast with the children, and then pretend to the children that they have had breakfast with the father, while they go without any breakfast at all. Of such stuff are the mothers of our people made, but we do not wish that sacrifices of that kind should continue. Therefore, although this Bill does not give us by any means all we would have liked, or all that our responsible Ministers would have desired—
Or all that you promised.
If the hon. and gallant Member had done me the courtesy of reading my election speeches, he might not have made that interruption. He evidently does not know what I said, and I am quite willing that he should make an examination of what I said. I have promised the people that I will do all that lies in my power to secure a well-balance equality of opportunity, and that everything I can to make it easier for the people to lead happier and more prosperous lives will be done, but I have committed myself to no wild statements. I have been preaching to sinners far too long, before I came here, to do anything of that kind; and I certainly never promised that the millennium would come about within a day or two. I am very glad to give my humble though loyal support to this Bill and I hope that in Committee a real attempt will be made to deal more thoroughly than has yet been done with the statutory condition. I have read it carefully, and I feel that if I were an unemployed man it would still be possible for me to be deprived of benefit. The right hon. Lady the Minister told us on Thursday quite definitely what her wishes were, and I hope that between us all, we may be able to deal with this question satisfactorily. I should like, for instance, to hear the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel) upon this matter. I have never heard the right hon. Gentleman speak in this House yet without making a real contribution to our discussions, and I believe he could make a most valuable suggestion to us on that point. I hope that if we cannot arrive at a settlement which is absolutely without difficulty, we might agree to the abolition of the condition altogether, because we cannot have a repetition of what has been taking place in connection with this matter. I am indebted to the House for having listened to me and I am glad to give my support to the Second Reading of this important Measure.
The hon. Member for Oldham (Mr. Lang) complained of the introduction, even into the House of Commons, of party feeling, but I assure him that on this, the first occasion on which I have ever had the honour of addressing the House, I do not intend to make use of party politics as such, because I recognise that the indulgence and kindness which the House always extends to those who speak here for the first time, imposes upon me a certain amount of restraint in order that I may not by any way transgress upon the courtesy and hospitality of hon. Members opposite. I have learned that on a Second Reading one ought to discuss the principles of a Bill, but, reading through this Bill, it appears to me that so much of its content is taken up with matters of machinery, that it is very difficult indeed to find material for a Second Reading speech upon it. All those matters of machinery and detail seem to be much better suited to discussion in Committee, but there is one principle which I have been able to extract from the Bill after considerable examination. It is the somewhat obvious one that here we have a proposal to take a, large sum out of the public revenue for the purpose of giving it to other people.
Giving it?
Or allocating it to other people. But I use the word "giving" quite advisedly, because the major part of the contribution here, we are told, is to deal with those who are not insured, properly speaking, and is a direct recognition by the State of the hopelessness of their condition, and of the fact that they must continue to be borne on a direct Exchequer contribution. My objection to the Bill is that it takes a large sum of money and fritters it away in comparatively negligible and trivial benefits. I must confess for my own part, though I disagree with hon. Members opposite on both sides of the Gangway, that I found myself rather attracted to the proposals embodied in the Amendment which was placed on the Paper by hon. Members opposite, because though one may disapprove of certain measures with regard to other persons' property, still burglary on the grand scale has at least romance to commend it, and however keen one's disapprobation may be, one instinctively accords to the Pirate King and Rob Roy a certain amount of approval and admiration which one does not accord to mere petty larceny or pocket-picking.
First of all, I would like to utter a warning in as serious terms as I can command against this process of trying to redistribute the wealth of the country through taxation in such a lavish manner as we are apparently committed to in this Bill. The right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) made an impressive appeal to the House for economy, and he explained to us very tellingly the burden which this present course was casting upon industry and enterprise. The right hon. Gentleman, of course, might have it retorted upon him that he was not himself altogether guiltless in the past in that respect, but I am in the privileged position of having no past, and probably very little future. I have nothing but the present, the never recurring, unique present, and I wish to use that privilege, if I may, to reinforce what I conceive to be the grave danger to this country of increasingly taxing our people and trying to get the wealth into other quarters by that means. This process of robbing Peter in order to pay Paul is a very ordinary matter of taxation, but I think we ought to consider whom we are robbing, who is Peter.
In all our discussions as to the cause of unemployment, I have often wondered why we never face up to the necessary connection which there appears to me to be between an overtaxed country and a feeble industry that cannot employ its own people. We may hide from that connection, we may run away from the fact, but it will pursue us until we face it, and face it boldly. I know that economy is supposed to be a very unpopular thing to preach, but when we consider that our industries to-day that ought to be employing men are not able to employ them, and largely, as I consider, because of the taxation of the country, then I think that, if we are really attempting to get the unemployed into their own industries and into steady work again, we ought to face up to the position.
The fact is that our export trade is not at all expanding as we would wish it to expand, and the reason is, I think, very largely this: My experience of business, which is not a very large one directly, has been that the growth of a business comes about in this way, that a man of character and ability saves enough from his profits to put it back and back into the business, so that from small beginnings he is able to build up an industry which is capable of employing, steadily and remuneratively, large numbers of men. If we continue to tax those profits so severely that there is little left over to put back into the business, if there is very little encouragement to build up a huge business, it is small wonder if employers do take on the attitude of "a short life and a gay one." If faced with a project of taxation such as this, which we are told is only an instalment, they lose hope and are content to play a shorter game, instead of carrying on and building up with long views and going ahead in a progressive manner.
The theory which, I understand, hon. Members opposite use to justify this process is that by increasing the purchasing power of the people, you are indirectly supporting industry. If one makes a survey of our industry at the present time, one will see that the industries that are nourishing are the cigarette manufacturers, the biscuit manufacturers, the brewers, the silk stocking manufacturers —in general, the luxury trades—and one of the most serious aspects of our present industrial position appears to me to be the proportionate rise of those luxury trades in prosperity compared with the decrease of the great basic industries, like agriculture and the heavy steel and coal industries, into a position of comparative subjection and impotence. It will be a very grave outlook for hon. Members opposite if they are ever faced with the task of introducing a Socialist State. If they have to take over a State crippled with bankrupt basic industries, I think they will find the task beyond even their ingenuity and statesmanship, and it is no wonder if, in these days of heavy taxation, the investor rushes into get-rich-quick schemes. How can he have the confidence which he ought to have in our great basic industries, which are the basis of our prosperity, when he knows that this heavy taxation will probably retard their growth in the future?
I am told that this is the old story and that industry has always been crying out against the burden of taxation. I have heard it said in this House, since I have been a Member, that industry always says, "This is the last straw," and yet it manages to stagger along when that last straw is placed on its back. But that seems to me to be a singularly futile argument to address to the House. It is as if a man who had indulged in some form of dissipation, such as cigarette smoking, over a long period of time, and was at last, through ill-health, forced to consult a doctor, who told him, "You must stop smoking if you are going to live," were to turn round on the doctor and say, "I have been told to stop smoking cigarettes often; I have never-done it, and I am still alive to-day." Yes, he is alive, and industry is alive, but alive how? With weakened heart and impaired vision, unable to employ the men that it ought to employ.
On these grounds, I think we ought to consider very carefully indeed before we add a penny to the public burden of taxation. We ought not to forget that, as Adam Smith remarked long ago, taxation has an odd way of finding sources from which to recoup itself other than those from which the Legislature of the country imagines the money is to come. A great number of the people who suffer from this excessive taxation are not, I believe, those who actually pay the taxes directly. There is a large body of our people whose standard of living is lowered and whose existence is jeopardised by this taxation, to whom we do not pay quite enough attention. Since I have been a Member of this House, it has seemed to me that we pay a great deal of attention to two sections of the community, almost to the exclusion of what I consider to be the most important section. We hear a great deal about the very rich, the wicked employer, who is always dining off gold plate when he is not indulging in the more congenial pastime of grinding the faces of the poor. We hear of him, and, at the other end of the scale, we hear of the working man; but when we talk about the working man, it appears that we are talking about the hopelessly unemployed man. Some hon. Members opposite seem to me to think that a man has not graduated as a working man unless he has drawn a great deal of unemployment benefit.
We all know that between these two extremes there lies the great mass of the people of the country, the important people of this country, wage-earners. People in receipt of small salaries, who never have enough money to carry on with, who never have as much money as they would like, who have always got a very hard time to make both ends meet, but who nevertheless, in these millions of homes up and down the country, are striving, by thrift and by self-sacrifice, to bring up families of children, reared in the traditional virtues of our race. These are the real people of the country, and I say that it is time we paid them a little attention. This heavy taxation, which has the effect of increasing the price of commodities and of making the cost of living higher, also has the effect of making a man's small luxuries so expensive that he cannot have a glass of beer without having in it a taste of the children's boots, so to speak. His little luxuries have become so dear that he feels a bad conscience about treating himself to them, when possibly he has a very heavy financial load to meet at the end of the week and a very inadequate wage with which to meet it. It has the effect, really, of lowering the wages that he receives. All the social reform in the world will never produce either as good a people or as happy a people as a people that is employed steadily with high wages, and I think that, for the sake of the ordinary working man, we ought to consider this question of taxation again in a new light.
Suggestions are put forward that the House of Commons is incapable of dealing with this question of public assistance, suggestions that we ought to form an independent public body to deal with public assistance. Why? Because the House of Commons cannot be trusted to deal with the public money. That is the suggestion, made in high quarters, and if we are to be worthy of the trust that has been placed in our hands, we ought to remember that we are using other people's money when we vote things. It is not generosity on our part, because it is not our money that we are voting, and we ought to be careful to conserve those resources of the country on which alone the prosperity of the people depends.
Now for Paul, the person who is to receive. The wife is to receive an increase. It will do her, no doubt, some good, as we have heard, but it is not what she has been taught to expect, and she will be disappointed with the Government. But the main part of the provisions of the Bill as regards benefit with which I want to deal is the part relating to young children and young men, and I think that if you extend the unemployment system to children as is suggested, and if you increase the benefit to young men of 17 and 18, you are running a very grave risk indeed that you will produce some detrimental effect upon the character of those involved. This is the old story. I am sorry I cannot be intellectual or clever about these matters, but I believe that at the back of our national existence as a whole lies the character of our people, and that, unless that character is maintained, all the best-laid schemes and the most elaborate provisions will not save us from the ruin which awaits us.
In talking about character, one feels a certain diffidence, because it is such a fundamental question, and I do feel very unhappy in treading clumsily on what I believe to be, on the whole, sacred ground, but, if I may refer to the speech, which delighted the House, that we heard from the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton), he wound up by asking the House to consider this question from the point of view of a father. There he was on sure ground, because the good father, the bonus pater familias of the Romans, was their conception of the highest type of prudence, affection and patriotism, and I ask no better than that we should consider this matter as fathers. It is true that we wish our children to have coats to protect them from the cold, to have boots and things like that, but, if we think a little more deeply, we want something more. We want not only covering for their bodies, but some sort of armour for their spirits, which is character, something which will enable them, if they go out into the world, to withstand those body blows to which the hon. Member made such feeling and delightful reference. You get body blows even in the enlightened ranks of the Labour party, even in the Socialist State, even in Russia; and if we are Sacrificing even one help towards the formation of that independent and self-reliant character, our social reform is no social reform at all, but is heading in the wrong direction.
5.0 p.m.
There was one remark made by the right hon. Member for the Shettleston Division of Glasgow (Mr. Wheatley) to which I wish to refer. Speaking in this House on the 31st October, on the question of the Widows' Pensions Bill, when he was rebuking the Government for not making the allowance greater than 10s., he said: I have always gathered that the doctrine of Socialism depends upon the citizens of a country having a more altruistic outlook than the capitalist system requires. In other words, you want to produce, not for profit, but for use. It depends on a very high type of character, and it cannot be worked with people who are always looking for loaves in legislation.
This is the appeal which I would make to hon. Members opposite on this occasion: I disagree with Socialism; I think it will never come about in this country; but we have thus much common ground between us, that, whether our future system is to be a socialist one or a capitalist one, we both depend, if it is to function at all, upon the fact that our industries are efficient and productive, and on the fact that our country is still peopled by persons of character, initiative, and efficiency. That is common ground; and, while we are arguing about our respective systems, let us remember that the people of this country have, in the meantime, their living to get, and let us try in this Council of State, as it has been called, to use only such measures for the betterment of the people, as will ensure that whether the future system be Socialism or Capitalism, it will leave the country better, more efficient, and more productive, not strangled by taxation or anything else, and also with a people who are capable of carrying on the high duties of citizenship in any State, whatever it may be.
I trust that the hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. W. S. Morrison) will permit me, as an old Parliamentary hand though somewhat in want of practice at addressing a House of this kind, to congratulate him upon the very admirable speech which he has just delivered. He did more than deliver an admirable speech; he presented to the House a solution of our pressing difficulties, though I think he had not them entirely in his mind when he put forward the solution. He said that what we want in this country is work for everybody and high wages. The question is settled! If we have arrived at the time when a Council of State can really establish a condition of affairs by which all the people will be employed and everybody will get good wages, then we have reached the industrial millennium; but when the hon. Member be- comes a more experienced Member of Parliament, and, when he has fought against many of those problems which he will have to face, I think he will find that the solving of those problems is much more difficult than he imagines.
I listened to the speech to-day of the hon. Member for Westmorland (Mr. O. Stanley), and it seemed to me that his contribution to the Debate was that there should be a new coalition between hon. Members in the part of the House from which he spoke and hon. Members in another part of the House to destroy the Government. I have never heard the hon. Member speak before, although I believe that he is a very distinguished Member of this Assembly; but I believe that he is in advance of his party, if not of his time. We heard the other day about "over-principled ruffians"; he seemed to me to be a very gentle assassin, bland and simple of speech. His plan was to kill the present Government by the co-operation or coalition of the other parties. I am here as a Member of this House, representing a constituency in Ireland, but also as a member of the Parliament of Northern Ireland. We are affected by the legislation which this House passes, because all legislative Measures passed by this House are transferred to the Ulster Parliament, and there they are legislated, by a sort of parliamentary stamp, as the legislation which affects and governs the six counties in Ulster. I felt it my duty, though it seems an intrusion in this Debate, to come here and definitely to state my views upon this Measure of such vast and far-reaching importance, not only to the citizens of Great Britain, but to the people of Northern Ireland.
It is, I think, 25 years since I first heard the word "demoralisation" used in this House. I remember the occasion very well. There was a Measure introduced giving old age pensions of 5s. per week to people of 70 years of age; and I remember a distinguished Member of this House rising and ejaculating that if you once passed a Measure of this character, you would demoralise the poor and the aged. He went further, and used some of those arguments which are so stale and rusty to-day; he said that if the House passed that Measure, which involved an expenditure of £25,000,000 of public money out of the revenues of that time, it would mean the destruction of the British Empire; and he was loudly cheered, as some of the hon. Members opposite were cheered to-day. He did not tell the House that for nearly 30 years he himself had had a pension of £1,500 a year out of the taxpayer. You dignify the rich if you give them large pensions; you humiliate, degrade and demoralise the poor if you give them miserable pensions. This is a form of mentality which I cannot understand.
Again, when we hear of the demoralisation of the people by these grants and doles, who was it who first introduced the principles of doles? The Labour party were not in power. Doles, or unemployment grants, were first devised and given by Members of the Coalition Government. Hon. Members on those benches do not object to the principle.
They were given by the Liberal party before the War.
The unemployment grant was sanctioned by the Liberal party; the principle was accepted, and it was carried through. Do hon. Members on those benches mean to tell me that in this progressive age, when the principle which they established has been operative for nearly 15 years, these gentlemen who now form the Government party, straight back from the people—these representatives of the newly-enfranchised masses—are just to leave things as they are? I do not think that it would be fair to expect the Labour party or their Government to allow those masses to remain precisely in the position which they occupied when the party opposite were in office.
I may be regarded as somewhat extraordinary if I say that I have great sympathy with the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton). Anyone who read his speeches—I never heard him until I met him in this House—would imagine that he was a violent revolutionary, ready with either a blunderbuss—if he were an Irishman—or a stiletto—if he were an Italian—not only to wage war against society, but to destroy society; and what is the revolutionary proposal which the hon. Gentleman puts forward? He proposes that not the employed person, but the unemployed worker, shall receive £l per week, that his wife shall receive 10s. per week, and his children 5s. per week. There is nothing very revolutionary in that. If you admit for the moment the principle of unemployment allowances, then the only question is, what is to be allowed as the unemployment grant? and nothing short of the sum which the hon. Member has stated would adequately meet the needs of an ordinary respectable working-class family.
I quite recognise the difficulties of the Government; I so far recognise their difficulties that for the first time in my life I am inclined to sympathise with them. They have been in office for only a few months. They have done so well in the sphere of international and world affairs that even their opponents pay them tributes for what they have done in America and at The Hague, in handling many of our foreign questions. They do not want a tribute from me; they can find it in the Opposition Press. They have added prestige to this country. Without statecraft, without governmental experience, with a lack of understanding of the subtleties of our world affairs, they have raised the prestige and honour of the name of this country. In so far as they have succeeded in those things in which we expected them to fail, we are entitled to offer them not only our sympathy, but our support and our encouragement, in the larger and, to me, the more vital and more immediate question of how they are to solve the industrial and economic problem, on the solution of which depend the welfare and enduring greatness of this land.
What is proposed by this Bill which has aroused so much, I will not say hostility, because I think that the criticisms have been very modest and have been tuned in a low key? This Bill does not demoralise people, as I have stated. Until we have reached the stage when this will be a land such as has been dreamt of by some of us, and visualised as a reality by the hon. Member for Cirencester—until we have reached the stage when this is a country when every man will 'be employed, and not only employed but well paid, we shall have to grapple with the problem of the more immediate needs of the people. I take it that the Government have two policies concurrently. One of them is the policy of dealing with poverty; the other is the policy of fashioning machinery and conceiving plans and schemes by which work will be created. This Bill deals with the question of preventing poverty, and the Government have dealt with it in a very modest way. I am surprised that anyone on those benches should criticise it. The other problem is that of devising plans and schemes by which employment can be found for the people and industry reconstructed and improved.
A national council has been suggested, and I think that it is a fine ideal. I was disturbed, however, when, as a strong believer in the League of Nations, I went once to a meeting at Geneva as an observer to watch the proceedings. It seemed to me like the House of Babel. I forget the number of people who were present, but it was an assembly as large as this, and they were all speaking different languages. No doubt it was a very striking assembly, very picturesque and impressive, but I thought, being very practical—for although I am an Irishman, I come from the North of Ireland—that with half a dozen men at a meeting round a table with good will, knowledge and power, it would have been much easier to solve whatever problems were submitted. I do not care what form a national council takes, if it be a real council. There are two gentlemen who ought to be members of it—the right hon. Gentleman the Lord Privy Seal and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George); both of them have splendid imaginations. Then I would suggest the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, because he could moderate the council. With such a council, some good might come. I think that even with the Prime Minister's blessing to that ideal, a great deal has been conceived.
Again, I say that unless you are unreasonable, you cannot expect these people to do everything in a few weeks or a few months. They are not masters of statecraft; they have little experience of those matters with which they have had to deal. We had for five or six years preceding the time when they took office, and for a long period before, other Governments made up of people of a different character. We had great statesmen; we had leaders of industry; we had men successful in commerce; we had great economic thinkers; and we had men who had shone in various spheres of activity. They did not solve the question. They had all the brains, and if, with all their brains, in 10 or 15 years they left this country with a million men and women unemployed, how do they expect the ladies and gentlemen who now have charge of the Government to come forward with a golden solution at the end of six months? They have brought forward their schemes, and hon. Members opposite have brought forward their schemes. Why cannot some of the leading Members on both sides of the House come together and submit their schemes on their relative merits, to see what is good in one scheme and accept it, and to see what is bad in another scheme and reject it?
At all events, you cannot allow things to go on as they are, and if such a council is not established, it is the duty of every Member of this House—at least of those who, like myself, have no party attachments in this House—to give a loyal and undeviating support to those who are burdened with perhaps the greatest public responsibility that any Government ever had to shoulder. I heard very caustic comments upon the expenditure involved in these schemes. It is a queer thing that when you hear criticism of expenditure from that side of the House, it is always criticism of money that is to be expended upon the common people. I am not a financier, thank goodness, but I was reading an article yesterday in one of the Sunday papers by an eminent writer who, I believe, is a supporter of hon. Gentlemen opposite. Here is what he said:
I venture to say, without knowing anything about the working of the Governmental and administrative machine, that if there were sufficient good will to cooperate, as we co-operated in time of war, when men could subordinate their opinions, their convictions and their tastes and desires to the common good; and if there were the same spirit in time of peace, surely there could be adequate consideration and real visual conception of the great possibilities for trade and commerce in this country, and careful exploration of unnecessary nonproductive expenditure. That would be much more useful work than merely trying to gain party capital out of human misery and a great national tragedy, which should inspire us all to approach these questions with one consideration alone—the welfare of the people, which is the foundation of either national or imperial glory. I cannot agree that nothing has been done for industry. The late Government passed a De-rating Act, and it has brought great relief to industry, and to agriculture also, at least, they say that it has. A large sum of public money was given to these interests. I do not know whether it demoralised them or not; money never demoralises the rich. That was done by the late Government. I am not entering into the merits of it; probably it will be justified, but surely you ought to be just as ready to do something for the poor and the people who have nothing but starvation facing them. If the Government proposes to do something for them, you ought to hold out the ready hand of sympathy.
One of the Clauses in this Bill which has been considerably condemned on the opposite side, is that dealing with the test of genuinely seeking work. If there be one question on which I am capable on giving an opinion, it is this. I am a member of the Ulster Parliament; it is a very small Parliament, governing a population of about 1,200,000 people. Naturally, in a parliament of that character, a member is brought more closely into touch with the common people than in a great Assembly of this character. People can come to your house, and come to you in the street. They can come to your parliament, and they are the only people who do come to their parliament. You have an opportunity of hearing their grievances and understanding their wants, and to me one of the most pitiful and tragic experiences is to find these people day after day seeking for work and, to my knowledge, doing all in their power to secure work. I have time after time tried to find them employment, and in some cases have succeeded. In most cases I have not, and these people were turned down because they were not genuinely seeking work. No explanation was ever given for turning them down. I do not say that civil servants and those who administer these Acts are heartless, or have no human feeling, or want to do some cruel wrong, but the official mind and the official machine is of such a character that they are inclined to believe, like some people, that everyone is guilty until he is proved to be innocent. That is the spirit of officialdom, and this Bill would have been worthless if it had not dealt with that matter. That is one of the most important features of the Bill, and I rejoice that we are going to find an adequate solution of that most serious limitation in the previous Measure, and I support it most heartily.
I do not propose to occupy the time of the House further, because I have some hesitation in speaking in this Debate at all. I was so accustomed to an excited atmosphere in the old days, that I found myself scarcely at home until Question Time, which to-day I found not only interesting, but exciting. I think that the House of Commons could, if it liked and if the real spirit were there— and I believe that the spirit is there— and if there were the will to put it into operation, solve this question of unemployment. This Bill will, I hope, solve one aspect of it. The bigger thing, I admit, is to secure work for the people; that is the ideal solution, that is what ought to be aimed at. I can assure the House that I have tried to do two things in my life. One of them is to overcome prejudices, and the other is to solve problems. In the Northern Parliament in the last four years I have found it easier to solve problems. It took 40 years to solve the Irish question. You hardly meet anyone nowadays who does not say that if Mr. Gladstone's Measure of 1886 had been passed you would have saved yourselves and saved Ireland. I remember an eminent leader of the Unionist party declaring in this House that he would sooner be ruled by the Sultan of Turkey than be ruled by John Redmond. That was after the persuasive eloquence of generations of unselfish and devoted men, who pleaded that cause and fought that battle.
On a point of Order. Is this a Debate on the Irish question?
The hon. Member who is addressing the House is drawing a distinction between prejudices and problems regarding legislation.
I do not often enter into an Irish discussion. I did not at Question Time, though then we were occupied with questions of Ireland. I took no part in that discussion, because I did not want the Irish skeleton once again to march up the floor of your House to make you forget the problems which you have to face. I have seen that done before. As I have said, it is easy, when the time is ripe for it, to solve any question if there is good will. The men who would not dream of conceding anything to Ireland, 40 years afterwards appended their names to a Treaty which gave Ireland greater powers than Mr. Gladstone's Government would have bestowed. That was after 40 years of agitation and bitterness, racial hostility and mischief, which had been created all over the world. So I say that this is a great and noble opportunity for men of all sections and parties to set their minds and hearts to this work, and as a detached member of this assembly I trust the result will be to create happier people and brighter conditions for the lives of the people.
I feel sure that I shall express the general sense of the House when I say how delighted we are to hear once more that voice from the north of Ireland to which we have just listened. There is one feature of the Bill under discussion which in itself is, in my view, sufficient to justify a Second Reading for it. I refer to the Clause dealing with tests for entitlement to benefit. In my experience, the tests as they stand at present work a substantial injustice. Towards the close of the Debate on Thursday the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wood Green (Mr. G. Locker-Lampson) expressed in no unmeasured terms a condemnation of the existing conditions. I assume the right hon. Gentleman was expressing the official view held by hon. Members above the Gangway when he said:
I wish to submit to hon. Members above the Gangway that there is a real case for a revision of the conditions as they exist. In order to determine the real problem we have to get that problem into its true perspective, and the first point to remember is that to-day we are living under abnormal conditions and that regulations which may be quite suitable for normal conditions may operate harshly and unfairly in abnormal circumstances. Conditions which are quite reasonable when there is plenty of work may be unjust when there is a great shortage of work. The second point to remember is that if we regard this question in the light of the circumstances existing in London and the southern area we are bound to inflict injustice, because the real problem of unemployment lies in the north. It is in the north that one finds the real tragedy of unemployment. The unemployment figure there is 13½, against only 5½ in London and the south-east area. In other words, unemployment in the north is 2½ times as severe as it is in the southern area. The third point, which is of great importance for a true considera- tion of the question, is that in the north unemployment is concentrated. We find there what are called the distressed areas, localities whose life is based on particular industries in which unemployment is specially severe. They are our basic industries. In coal mining you will find an unemployment figure of 15 per cent., in the cotton trade 12 per cent., in the woollen trade 15 per cent., in shipbuilding 25 per cent., and in the heavy iron and steel trades 20 per cent.
This is the state of affairs which we must keep in mind when considering the conditions which it is suitable to impose under unemployment insurance. To go from the general to the particular, may I take a case with which I am familiar and remind the House that in Newcastle, the capital of the north-east coast, you find there concentrated in one small area no less than 16,000 unemployed, and in what is the staple industry, that is, shipbuilding and ship repairing, no less than 29½ per cent. of the men are unemployed. That is to say, nearly one in three are out of work in a basic trade which, in bygone days, contributed to building up the industrial prosperity of this country. This is the root of the whole problem. When considering the conditions to be imposed for entitlement we are faced with the fact that to-day, in that place, there are 16,000 people for not one of whom, I suppose it is fair to say, you could provide employment by the exercise of the utmost energy, capacity and influence.
In a state of affairs like that it is singularly unreal to disqualify men for not seeking work, because right at the outset you are up against this fact, that whether they seek it or not the work is not there to be found. I agree that it is essential that some conditions must be imposed to ensure that men shall not receive benefit who are not working when they ought to be working, but the existing test is not that a man should be trying to get a job which exists but that he should be trying to find a job which, in the majority of cases, does not exist. The conditions say not that a man should apply for available work, that he should go where it is reasonably likely that work will be available, but merely that he shall walk about here and there endeavouring to fulfil the empty formality of qualifying within the terms of "genuinely seeking work."
Let the House see how it works in practical cases. Take any large industrial area where there is a great deal of unemployment. The men go at a fixed hour every day to the place where men are taken on for work, and if they are not taken on at that particular hour they know they will not be taken on during that day. Therefore, they know early in the day that there is no chance of obtaining work that day in the place where they ordinarily work. After that, what are they to do? They have to walk round and round endeavouring to find where work is, but they have no guide as to where they ought to go, no guide as to where work is likely to be found. It is a mere question of trying to fulfil the formalities which the regulations prescribe. It is, in effect, an industrial treadmill, with an endless round of useless effort.
A great deal has been said about the demoralising effect of the dole. My experience has been that such demoralisation as exists has been caused far more by making decent men walk around trying to find work in places where they know that there is no work to be found. Even after the men have done all this walking about a large number of them are disqualified without any apparent reason. They do not know what they have done which they ought not to have done, and they do not know what they have not done which they ought to have done. All that they know is that, according to the officials, they have not fulfilled the necessary conditions of genuinely seeking work. I do not attribute any blame to the insurance officials who, in my judgment, are conscientiously attempting to fulfil their duty under very difficult circumstances. It is the system that is wrong. I have no doubt whatever that in many cases men are disqualified because they have not the capacity properly to state their case.
They cannot tell the tale.
That is perfectly true. They cannot explain matters which they are expected to explain. There are some men imbued with a sense of the indignity of having their word questioned, and are regarded with disfavour on that account. There are others who have lost confidence, and their general appearance may be against them. Whatever the cause may be, we know that a large number of the claims of these men are turned down. It is said that some of them are shirkers, but there are shirkers in every walk of life. On this point, the opinion of those who are best qualified to judge is that the shirker very often gets through where the honest man fails. I do not think any man would object to carry out the ordinary formality of walking about if he thought that by so doing he could qualify for benefit. As a rule, North countrymen are men of good principle and steady independence, and their great aim in life is not to qualify for the dole, but to get work. One of the saddest things which a Member of Parliament experiences is the great number of applications which he receives from day to day from men who are trying their very best to find employment. The same applies to the women. Very often if a man is inclined to be a shirker his wife tries to keep him up to the mark.
In the city which I represent no less than 3,700 men had their cases turned down because they were not genuinely seeking work, and this was at a time when the unemployment figure in that city was never less than 14,000. In a system of that kind there is something radically wrong, and I am convinced that great injustice is caused in an enormous number of eases. It may be that we have to choose on the one hand between having such rigid conditions that they will certainly exclude all the shirkers, even with a certainty of excluding a number of genuine workers; and, on the other hand, between framing conditions so that they will let in all who are entitled to benefit even at the risk of letting in a few who are not entitled to the dole. I think the latter is the only just course, and I can assure the House, from my own practical experience in these matters, that there are a large number of the claims of men turned down which ought not to be turned down under an equitable system.
I have frequently been asked my advice as to what course the men should take in order to qualify for benefit; I have been asked to tell them where they ought to go, and what they ought to do. I have advised them to the best of my ability, and, even after they have taken my advice, their claims have been turned down. I have known cases where men have a list of the places where they have called each day looking for employment, giving the names of the persons whom they have seen. Some of them have quite an exhaustive list. I have gone through those lists and checked them, and I have been unable to suggest anything more which those men could have done, and yet their cases have been turned down. Consequently, I have been forced to the conclusion that a system which allows that kind of thing to happen is absolutely wrong. The question before the House is whether this Bill provides an opportunity of arriving at a right solution of the unemployment problem, and it is because I think it does provide that opportunity that I am going to support the Second Reading.
I would like to draw attention to Subsection (1) of Clause 4, which provides that if there is a specific situation vacant or about to become vacant and the employment is suitable, and if a man refuses or neglects to apply for it or refuses to accept the situation when it is offered to him, he is disqualified from receiving benefit. Let us assume a situation in which a gate man is required. That is a job that most men could do, and it is suitable employment within the meaning of the Sub-section. Let us assume that there are 5,000 men unemployed who are suitable to do that job. Supposing those men know that the situation is vacant and they do not apply for it, they are all guilty of neglect within the meaning of the Sub-section, and every single one of them is disqualified. A provision of that kind is ten times worse than the law as it stands to-day.
I would like to point out to the Minister of Labour that the proposal in this Bill goes beyond what was set forth in the majority report of the Committee which inquired into this question. That report suggested that a man should be disqualified for benefit if he had refused an offer of suitable employment. This Bill provides not merely that it is a disqualification to have refused suitable employment, but also to have neglected to apply for the vacancy. When we come to the remaining Sub-sections of Clause 4, we find the same difficulties in regard to proof. It has been one of the great grievances of the past that a man has gone forward with all his story as to where he had been in order, and he has been disbelieved. I will not dwell any longer upon these matters, but I can assure the Minister of Labour that, so far as we are concerned, we shall accept the invitation to co-operate with the Government in trying to arrive at a just and fair solution of the difficulty.
There is one other point to which I should like to call the attention of the Minister of Labour. Under this Bill, there still remains the obligation on an unemployed man to go to another district in search of work, and to perform that work if it is suitable. This involves a great hardship at the present time. Take the case of a shipyard labourer on the East Coast. He may have to go to Barrow to accept a job. Suppose that his wages are 39s. per week. The man must go and accept that job; otherwise, he will be disqualified for benefit. That labourer might have to pay 25s. per week for board and lodgings in Barrow, and that would leave him 14s. a week to send home to keep his wife and family, provide them with food and clothing, and pay the rent. It is obvious that there is something wrong about that state of things. Those circumstances operate as a deterrent to men leaving the districts in which they live, and going to another district where there is a possibility of finding employment.
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The remedy for this state of things may be to enable those people to continue to receive benefit under the Unemployment Insurance Act. I am merely putting this matter forward for the consideration of the Government, because there is a genuine grievance in the case that I have submitted. There are large numbers of men quite willing to go to other parts of the country to do work, but it is a little unfair that they should have to do this, and be penalised to the extent to which they are penalised at the present time. Many of these jobs are quite temporary, and are not worth moving the whole family to the new place. In most of these cases the housing shortage is so great that they cannot move their families if they desire to do so. We on these benches think that much more use ought to be made of the Employment Exchanges which, when they were originally formed, were intended to be in the real sense of the term an exchange for employment—in other words, registry offices to which men can go when they are out of work, and to which employers can go when they want men for work. If that principle were extended so that employers would be encouraged to go to the Exchanges in order to get their men from them, we think that many of the difficulties which at present beset this question might be effectively overcome.
I rise to take part in this Debate because, as my opponents in this House, in whatever quarter they are, will admit, since I entered this House I have shown some interest and some activity in connection with this problem. There appears on the Order Paper to-day, as it has on previous days, a Motion standing particularly in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton). I rise to support that Motion. I have been told that 32 of us appended our names to that Motion, and, according to the information supplied to us by the official organ of the Labour party, 12 desertions have now taken place, and we are left with 20. Let me say quite frankly that, so far as I and my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgeton are concerned, and those who are associated with us, the numbers might dwindle even further, but, if the opportunity were given to us to vote, the 20 of us, or even fewer—even if it were a handful—have decided on this matter that pledges given to poor people, contracts entered into between poor constituents and ourselves, are serious contracts, are contracts to be honoured, and there is no more reason for breaking them than for breaking the contract that exists on the part of the Labour Chancellor of the Exchequer to pay the National Debt interest as he is now doing. We say that that contract of ours was the more serious inasmuch as our promise was given to terribly poor people, and, while there might be a case for modifying a promise to rich people, it is a cruel, it is an unfair, it is an indefensible thing to break a contract or word to poor persons in this country.
I want in the first place to deal with the objections by the Conservatives. I really cannot understand why they are not in the main supporting this Measure. After all, let it be borne in mind that, if they had held power to-day, they would have introduced another Measure similar to this. I would ask those who occupy the Front Bench here to-day, what was their last Bill? Their last Bill, curious to say, was a step in advance, as this is a step in advance to-day. What is the big step in advance to-day? The big step in advance, apart from the point as to not genuinely seeking work, is that we are increasing the dependants' allowance from 7s. to 9s.; you increased it from 5s. to 7s. If that be the only distinction, I cannot see why hon. Members opposite should oppose this Measure. What are the other two grounds that they take? First of all, they take the question of juvenile employment. When the present Secretary of State for War was Minister of Labour, I supported the attempt he then made to include the juveniles, but to-day it is asked: Why bring juveniles into the Employment Exchange market? I could wish that all hon. Members who speak on this subject knew something of it. I think I do; I think the hon. Member for Leith (Mr. E. Brown) does; I think that Members on this side do; but I wish that others who apply their minds to this subject would do so with knowledge.
Already, without reducing the age of entrance, without doing anything at all, you bring the juvenile at 14 up to the Employment Exchange. I stood at an Employment Exchange last week witnessing the coming to the Exchange of children who had not left school, children who were appearing before committees called the after-care and after-school committees, They were standing, not as the hon. and gallant Member for Kelvingrove (Major Elliot) says, in queues, but in Shettleston, where I was, they were standing, 20 or 30 of them, not even in a queue inside a room, but, as my hon. Friend the Member for Camlachie (Mr. Stephen) and I saw them, out in the open street, waiting their turn to go into this committee. Therefore, the argument cannot be that they will be dragged to the Employment Exchanges; that is already being done, not by Labour Governments but by other Governments in the past.
I confess that the hon. and gallant Member for Kelvingrove only got me in one place in slight sympathy with him, and that was with regard to the contribution asked for the juvenile. I understood that it was always a big Socialist principle—and I confess I have agreed with it—that there ought to be taxation on ability to pay, that ability to pay ought to be the keynote. But look at the contributions in this Bill—3½d. from a boy of 15 with a wage of 8s.; and the State, the great community, this community that includes the millionaire, that includes Cabinet Ministers and Members of Parliament, this State, through a party whose basic principle is ability to pay, comes along and says that the boy of 15 with 8s. a week shall pay 3½d., and the State, with its millionaires, 3½d. Where is the defence? Where is the principle? I confess that I cannot see the defence at all. Either of two things has happened. Either you are taking too much from this 8s. or you are asking the millionaire and the State to contribute too little; and either set of circumstances is indefensible from the Socialist point of view.
The next point to which I turn is that in regard to genuinely seeking work. I confess to a feeling of humiliation while listening to this Debate. I have heard Liberals, and even Tories, ask this Government to go further. What a humiliation! The Liberals—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] Yes, I feel this humiliation because most of us frankly opposed you because you were not prepared to go far enough. But to-day and Thursday we have heard pleas to the Government to go further. The hon. Member for East Birkenhead (Mr. White) made a speech, and what did he say about this question of "not genuinely seeking work"? He asked the Government to go further; and the hon. Member for East Newcastle (Sir R. Aske), who has just spoken, has said the same. A Conservative Member speaking from the back benches said: "Let us go further in this solution." The hon. Member for East Birkenhead went further and said that he wanted the Labour Government to concede the three-day waiting period. Why cannot that be done? The constant and only defence that I have ever heard for the Labour movement not going further was that we had not power, that we were only in office; but here we have the people who hold the balance of power, the people who can bring the numbers to give that power, telling us that they want this Clause made a better Clause for the working people; they want to see men and women getting benefit under it; they want the three-day waiting period. Why cannot we give it?
I would say this to the Liberals. In 1924 there was then sitting on their back benches as honest a soul as ever trod this earth, the then Member for West Middlesbrough, now deceased. He then moved in this House, supported, not by the wild extremists, but by one who is a responsible Cabinet Minister now—the Secretary of State for India—he moved that the allowance should be 3s. for a child, or 1s. more than the Labour Government now propose to give. The Liberal party then went into the Lobby backed by the present Secretary of State for India. Has the present Secretary of State for India lost his Socialism since he joined the Labour party? Is he now supporting 1s. less than he did when he was sitting on the Liberal side in this House? What is the defence? Is it that he was playing the party game then which the Liberals intended to exploit— and nobody suggests that the gentleman now deceased would do that, nor would anybody say that the right hon. Gentleman the present Secretary of State for India would play the party game—or is the reason that the money cannot be found, and that the giving of a shilling to children of unemployed people would bring down the Labour Government or ruin the wealth of this country? Surely it is not that.
I have been condemned during the week-end in Labour papers by people who used to be in the Communist party and have now renegaded and become more reactionary still. It is a curious thing to me that when Communists join the Labour party they become reactionary, and with Liberals it is the same. I cannot understand it, but these people who have been writing in the Press say that Maxton is a kindly person, and if they were all like Maxton how popular the extremists would be, but, as for Buchanan, he is hard, he drives them away. Why do I drive them away? Let me say this to the right hon. Lady. In this House I often say hard and bitter things, and I not only say them here, but I say them in personal conversation. The one place where I never say them is in my Division, when I am looking for votes. I am a moderate then. I always have been a moderate, and I am still a moderate now. I may use hard words, but I say to those people who challenge me that we have a saying in Scotland:
Let me turn from that to the "genuinely seeking work" Clause. I confess that in it I cannot see the improvement; indeed, I think I see it worse. For instance, never before in any Act of Parliament that I have consulted have I seen this expression: "Or a job was about to become vacant." In the old days, an unemployed man was penalised if he refused a job that was offered to him, but now, because he does not go about and read people's thoughts and get to know when a job is vacant, he is to be disqualified. If, for instance, he is a ship's cook, and is told there is a boat being repaired on the Clyde and it might be ready in a month and it might want one cook, he is now to be told he knows of a job becoming vacant and he has not stood at the door every day and every hour of the day and he will be disqualified. We are told the famous circular 5061 is abolished. I do not see it being abolished. We are told we have to take the Government's word. The Prime Minister has given his word, and that is good enough for us, they say. If that is a good reason, what right have you to refuse to accept the word of the unemployed person? An unemployed person is as good as the Prime Minister. The second Sub-section of Clause 4 says: could prove that, he would get benefit. If you put those words to any insurance officer he will say: "If a man can prove that, he will get benefit now." If he can prove that, he is genuinely seeking work. That is already the test. Let us take 5061. A man who is thrown out of work comes along and claims benefit. He has not got 30 stamps. If he has a decision against him of not genuinely seeking work, it does not matter how good his case is, he cannot get benefit. The difference I see is that the phrase "not reasonably" only applied to the transitional Clause. Now it is going to apply to everyone. You are worse than the Tories. To oppose this Bill for being extreme or advanced shows the most cruel heartless-ness of Toryism that ever I knew. You have learned nothing from the Election, and, worse than that, you seem to be incapable of learning anything. What happened under the transitional Clause was that a man came along who had been six months out of work. The court of referees said: "You cannot make your case under this Clause; you are disqualified for six weeks." After the six weeks were up he came back to the court of referees and made out his case. Under the Act, if he had not been reasonably looking for work on a previous occasion, that would be sufficient for the court of referees to refuse him a second time. I put it to a legal person versed in legal phraseology, and he says the difference is that, while the word "reasonably" only used to apply to the transitional Clause, it now applies to everyone. That is our position.
The Clause has not a single defender in the House, and the least the Government could do, if they were acting wisely and soundly, would be to withdraw it. We had a Committee appointed. The chairman was a lawyer. When he was in politics he was always disowned by the Liberals because he voted Tory every time or he did not vote at all. He brought in the recommendation of "not genuinely seeking work." He brought in a recommendation in favour of a compromise. There is one man who knows this subject inside out. The hon. Member for West Nottingham (Mr. Hayday) is an admitted expert. The Prime Minister told us the Labour Government would only accept evidence from experts. He turned down the evidence of the ex- pert and took the evidence of a cast-off of the already small Liberal party.
The Amendment of my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgeton has been criticised, but it is the Trade Union Congress' evidence put down in black and white. The right hon. Lady before she was in office, when she was a member of the General Council of the Trade Union Congress, said she knew how "not genuinely seeking work" could be abolished. When she gets into office she refers it to a Liberal, who never knew the problem at all, to tell her how it was to be done. Out of office she could tell the Tories how it was to be done, but in office she sends it to a man who never understood it. In our Amendment we propose £l a week for a man, 10s. for his wife and 5s. for each child. That is, roughly speaking, our demand. I was pleased to hear an hon. Member for one of the divisions of Belfast back up our proposal. I welcome his support, because I think it will be needed ere many months have passed.
No one on this side has said this is a good Bill. Not a single speaker on this side has yet fully supported the Government proposals. It is the first time I have known a Government unable to get one backer from its own supporters. When we gave our Blanesburgh Committee evidence it was not given by the irresponsibles. It was not given by my hon. Friend the Member for Camlachie. It was the Minister of Labour who gave evidence accompanied by, as I think, the best expert on the subject, the hon. Member for West Nottingham. They were the two responsible statesmen who could be trusted implicitly to put Labour's case. They put it. Their last words were, "We do not think this is an adequate amount, but we think, taking all the circumstances into account, it is an amount which might be given by this Government without breaking the insurance principle. £l, 10s., 5s., could be given by the Tories, not because it was sufficient but because it was a vast improvement on what was being given. That is what we ask from the Conservative Government. I am asking the Labour Government exactly the same question that the Minister of Labour asked the Tory Government. She said, "That is what you can do now." Now I am asking the Minister of Labour, if it could be done by the Tories in 1926, why can it not be done by the Labour party in 1929?
I want now to deal with the people between 18 and 21. I do not think there will be any difference of opinion on this question. One of the kindest men I ever knew was a Conservative Member of this House. I remember him blushing with shame at speeches made, not by me, or even by the hon. Member for Bridgeton, but by two Members of the present Government, the Secretary of State for War and the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland. They dealt with the class of person between 18 and 21. I have never seen the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour in the late Tory Government feel anything worse than he felt those speeches. What was he charged with? He was charged with putting young women on the streets. I am incapable almost of charging another human being with such a fearful and grave charge as the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland charged the late Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour on the Third Heading Debate. I have it here. The Secretary of State for War made much the same speech. To-day, we come along and we ask our Government, now, at this stage, whether they cannot do the things that the Tories did not do. The Tory Government were told that it would cause some women to go on to the streets; that it would drive the single girl in lodgings into doing the worst thing that woman can do, namely, sell her body in our great industrial towns. That was the indictment, not of irresponsible persons, but of the Members of the present Government. We can keep these women off the streets. But it now appears that our price of virtue is only 2s. more than Toryism. One of two things was wrong. Our first statement was either an exaggeration—I do not think it was; I think it was a correct statement—it was either wrong or an exaggeration, or else our 14s. or our 12s. will do what Toryism was going to do in the last Parliament. The Secretary of State for War did not confine himself to 10s. In his Third Reading speech, he said that even 12s. would do the same as 10s.
Let me say to right hon. Gentlemen who occupy these Benches, that I and the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland sat at a conference a few weeks ago dis- cussing the most human problem with which I have ever had to deal in my life. When Parliament is not sitting I do not accept money for Russian trips, or for capitalist articles in newspapers, nor do I spend my time in dining with opponents. I do what I think I ought to do—represent my Division. At that conference we were discussing the fact that even with our present Government in office there were in my native city thousands of people every month, hundreds of people every day in the week, who had to go to the sheriff eviction court. They were marshalled in their hundreds, and turned adrift even out of their homes. I asked the Undersecretary of State for Scotland: Why? Not merely because the owners of property are bad. Some of them are. I asked: Why are these people marshalled like this? I told him that the reason those people were being battered from pillar to post was not because they were bad people, but because they had not an income to enable them to make ends meet week in and week out. I asked him: "Can you defend 2s. a week for a working man's child?" The Undersecretary of State for Scotland, to his credit, said: "I would sooner be cleared out of public life than say that 2s. was enough to keep any man's child." That was at a conference held quite recently.
Is the Labour party here going to defend it. Is the Labour party in this House going to say that those scales are sufficient? I see the Secretary of State for Scotland here. He and his colleagues are very proud because they are going to clear the slums of Scotland more than they have been cleared in the past. I spent yesterday—the Sabbath Day—in my Division, where I went to a slum clearance house. This in the income required to carry on that house: Seven and sixpence a week for rent—it is not the dearest, but the cheapest rent of the slum clearance houses in Glasgow— 2s. or 1s. 6d. for lighting, that makes 9s. If you add 4s. a week for coal, it will be seen that 13s. a week is required before it is possible to feed, clothe and give the family a chance.
I am asked to take these scales in the Bill as satisfactory. The next few weeks will see Scotland in the throes of winter. It is not sufficient to say to them that there will be another Bill. I would remind the hon. Lady in charge of this Measure, that in her speech she did not say that we were to get another Bill giving us the Blanesburgh scale. I know that we must have another Bill to carry on the transition period, but will she say to me that in another Bill she proposes to give the Blanesburgh scale to the unemployed? Will she say that before this Parliament ends she intends to implement her pledges? A right hon. Gentleman said that we were getting an instalment of 6d. in the pound. I wish it were 6d. in the pound. The only thing that we are getting is 2s. for the man's wife. If you, or I, owed a debt, and we proposed to pay that debt by such a miserable, contemptible instalment as you are giving, we should be hounded out of every Court of Justice in the country. This is not an instalment. It is a miserable contribution. I do not know how anybody has the nerve to do it. How a Minister with £5,000 a year can ask a child to live on 2s. a week passes my comprehension. I could not do it.
We may be small in numbers, and I know the risk that I am taking. I know the power of an organised movement; nobody better than I. I have nothing outside the £400. I never earned a penny more in my life. [An HON. MEMBER: "Do not keep mentioning that fact!"] I will do what I like. If I had dined with the Opposition as often as the hon. Member, I would cross the Floor of the House. The hon. Member must not make interruptions, or he must be prepared to receive them. What we are doing is not being done for the purpose of earning false cheers. I know that we have taken a great amount of risk in what we are doing. I would say to the Government that they have two courses open to them, either to say that their promises at the last Election cannot be carried out, that they were too extravagant and carried too much weight, or they should start to give to the poor people, the finest men, women and children that ever were born, what they promised to give them. If the Government keep their word, though they may have to face a temporary political embarrassment, the people will stand by them.
The hon. Gentleman the Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) is wrong when he thinks that we oppose this Bill—[ Interruption. ]—
The hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) has been given a patient hearing, and he really must give other hon. Members an opportunity of addressing the House without interruption.
I admit that I received a patient and a quiet hearing, and I have no intention of doing anything to interfere with the course of this Debate. But I was twitted by an hon. Member. It was a nasty, offensive remark to make. I certainly did not wish to injure your feelings, Mr. Speaker, or the feelings of any other Members in this House.
I would disabuse the hon. Member of the idea that we oppose this Bill on Second Reading merely for the sake of opposing it. We do so, because we regard it as a Bill which really tinkers with a great subject. It tinkers with it in such a way that it is not going to make it any easier for us really to deal with the problem of unemployment when it comes up for review, as it ought to be reviewed to-day, more profoundly than the Government have done. After all, the right hon. Lady told us that this is the 21st Unemployment Insurance Bill in 10 years. The rate of infant mortality of these Bills is extraordinarily high, and we believe that this one will die one of the earliest of deaths. Further, it is absolutely lacking in constructive statesmanship in every single aspect of this question.
When right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite were in Opposition, they kept telling us in every Unemployment Insurance Debate that this does not matter; what really matters is finding work, schemes of work and the like. There is nothing to-day about that. They also twitted us with not going deeply into this matter; not going into the real problem of relief and the different categories of unemployed. There is no advance on that. For five months they have been in office, after having told the country that they were ready with a solution of the problem of unemployment, and that with their great knowledge of the working classes and their great knowledge of working conditions, all was ready. Now, we get an absolutely disappointing Bill, with the exception of one new and good idea, which is dealt with timidly and in a half-hearted fashion. The idea in Clause 12 is worth having, but it has been faced in a most inadequate way. What strikes us in this Bill is that what the Minister of Labour wished to do was to get out of her signature to the Report of the Blanesburgh Committee at the earliest possible moment and the rest may be left until another of these Commissions, another of these outside inquiries can go into the matter, and report one or two years hence. It is profoundly disappointing to see the result of the Government's promises, their great election campaign, their undertakings with the unemployed.
Before I come to the substance of my speech, let me deal with the problem of unemployment relief as I see it, and let me say a few words about a subject which has come up in these Debates and, no doubt, is one of the causes of this Bill, namely, the "genuinely seeking work" provision, and its substitute, Clause 4, in this Bill. I rather agree with the hon. Member for East Newcastle (Sir R. Aske) that Sub-section (1) and Subsection (2) of this Clause are not going to help any Labour Minister very much. I am not sure that they are not going to make matters more difficult. It is not what the Minister may have said in explaining the Bill, but it will be what the Courts of Referees and the Umpire say these provisions mean, that will be the actual practice which will govern the administration of the Minister of Labour, to whatever party he or she belongs. Are not the words of Clause 4 so far from getting away from psychological tests—in her speech in introducing the Bill the Minister's sole condemnation of the existing provision was that it involved a psychological test—creating a new psychological test? One of the first rules in drafting is that, if you want to avoid a psychological test, you leave out the word "knowing" or "know." Throughout these Sub-sections you have the word "know" and "knowing." The first test under Sub-section (1) is that the unemployed man knew that a situation suitable to himself was or was not about to become vacant. In Sub-section (2) it is even more remarkable. It says:
My main thesis is, that there is a fundamental vice in our present system of unemployment insurance, and that is that unemployment insurance is mixed up with uncovenanted benefit, extended benefit, transitional period, call it what you will, with State relief, and that so long as you have these categories dealt with in one Bill and by one set of machinery, one scale of benefits, one administration, you are getting from had to worse in the whole matter. Until you detach the insurable risks from the un-insurable risks, you will never get any real advance in grappling with the problem of relief. Unemployment Insurance Bills, of which this is the twenty-first in 10 years, have failed because under political and economic pressure ever since 1921, on to what ought to be a genuine insurance scheme capable of covering, and covering well, three-fourths of the unemployed, there has been a constant accretion, in successive Parliaments and in successive Bills, of a whole series of other problems, which should have been the subject of separate and specific treatment. Now, on the top of that, you are adding a new one. It is confessed that in this Bill the contributions from the new juveniles who have been brought in, are bound to be greater than the benefits they are likely to receive. The excuse for bringing them in is that they are good lives and that they will be a prop and assistance to the Fund, and that it is desirable to bring in boys of 15 in order that they may help those who are over 50.
What is the real point? Juvenile unemployment ought not to be mixed up with the rest of unemployment. It ought to be the subject of a separate Fund and a separate scheme, founded and based upon and absolutely associated throughout with training. If a juvenile on leaving school and before he is an adult, falls out of employment, in that short space of time—all the figures that we have to go upon show that the numbers are not great, certainly they are a comparatively small percentage of the adult unemployed—they should be dealt with in a separate category by themselves, and their contributions ought to be used to pay for adequate training. Under the present system juveniles may have gone into a blind alley occupation and have dropped out of employment and have never acquired skill and, even at that early age, they are virtually unemployable. That is what happens so often to the juvenile unemployed under 20. The first thing, therefore, if you want to go in for a progressive measure, and that is what we want, is to deal with the juveniles in a category by themselves and to use their Fund to see that they get start in a skilled industry by enabling them to learn their trade, or calling.
A step has been taken with the juvenile employment centres, but they have been experimental, and it is perfectly clear from the reports that great changes must take place, here and now, and the sooner the better, in the staffing, organisation and distribution of the juvenile employment centres. The essential thing is that you should detach juvenile unemployment from the Employment Exchanges and the administration of their benefit from the general management of the problem by the Employment Exchange officials, and transfer it to ad hoc bodies, closely associated, if not entirely under, the local education authorities. Until you bring the local education authorities right into this problem of juvenile unemployment, you will make no progress in what we wish to see done, namely, the break-up of the unemployment relief problem into its constituent elements. When I entered this House I made my first speech on the break up of the Poor Law. The first really big step in that direction was taken under the Local Government Act of last year. In order to get rid of the kind of speeches that we have heard in this Debate, and notably by the hon. Member for Gorbals, which show a confusion of talk and a confusion of suggestion in regard to this problem, I hope that it will be broken up into its constituent parts.
I have said that there is the germ of one good idea in Clause 12. In Clause 12 there is to be, from now on, a clear distinction between the unemployed on the Fund and the unemployed who are on the new national poor law relief. I am glad to see that those who are insured are separated from those who have dropped out of insurance who are to be carried wholly by the new national poor law which this Bill sets up—wholly by the State. Is not the cause of so many of the speeches we have heard from the benches opposite the fact that they envisage the whole of the unemployment problem as consisting of the latter class, namely, the chronic unemployed, who have been out of work for long periods, and who under this Bill are to be taken over by the State? Let us remember the facts as ascertained. There have been various committees of inquiry into the incidence of unemployment. The first and the most striking fact that ever was revealed was in the inquiry that took place before the Blanesburgh Report, that in the first five years of the duration of the main Act of 1920, half the contributors never drew one single penny of benefit from the Fund, or ever applied for it. The percentage was just over 48. One half of the insured workmen of this country never claimed benefit and were not unemployed.
Over what period?
7.0 p.m.
Over five years. Those figures ought to be published abroad, especially in those countries that look down upon England because of what they call the dole system. Remember that, with the benefits there and with an unprecedentedly long period of industrial depression, half drew no benefit. Similar investigations showed that 17 per cent. of all male claimants have been more on benefit than off benefit for the previous four years. You have then the vast mass of the working population in insurance drawing no benefits at all, you have some in and out, and you have a residuum of 17 per cent. then, and certainly 10 per cent. to-day, taking the figures of the Minister of Labour—though possibly they may be rather more, as she has rather under-estimated the figures—who are more or less continuously on benefit and who would bankrupt any fund and have bankrupted it again and again. They are the most difficult class of unem- ployed to deal with, namely, the chronic unemployed. When you come to examine the matter further, you find the broad fact is that the greatest part of the real distress, which can never be met by these benefits and which causes all the language we have heard just now, arises from this class suffering from prolonged unemployment.
I believe it is essential to bring the administration of the whole of the chronic class out of association with the insurance fund altogether for good and all. The only way to deal with that class is in association with the new central authorities. The figure given by the Minister of Labour is 120,000, and they are to be carried from now wholly by the central fund. That category has to be put alongside the category about which we have had extremely interesting and valuable figures given to us recently in Command Paper 38493, namely, the able-bodied unemployed who are on the rates. That paper shows that in England and Wales—I omit the Scottish figures, though they add further to the force of the argument—in June this year there were 65,683 unemployed on outdoor relief. That figure in some cases but not in all overlaps with the 120,000 who are dropping out of insurance. The note given us to that White Paper is very illuminating. It says:
What must be done? The essential thing is to take over the restoration of these people by one organisation. The present position is ridiculous. You have 65,000 people unemployed, wholly maintained out of the rates, to which the central Government does not contribute one penny, and you are going to have 120,000 similar people paid wholly from the central Government, and not out of the rates. On top of that you are to have two similar organisations, the organisation of the new Poor Law authorities dealing with one category, and the Employment Exchanges (which are to-day ceasing altogether to fulfil their functions of Employment Exchanges and are becoming a new relieving inquisitorial order) examining into the lives of the people, to deal with the other category. The only essential thing is to bring those two categories together, and to deal with them in a partnership between the State and the local authorities by relieving those people in a more scientific way not based on a flat rate. An hon. Member says, "More on the rates." I wish to emphasise not on the rates.
If a proposition to deal scientifically with those people—not on a flat rate or on the rates—in a way which will meet the needs of the very poorest class of the unemployed, can be examined, not in relation to the stability or finance of an insurance fund from which half the contributors have drawn no benefit, if the State will face up to the problem of the submerged tenth and of how to deal with them in a humane way, then you will find your solution. The whole problem is to combine together the necessary deterrent and the necessary incentive, the necessary preventive side with the essential restorative side in dealing with that appalling isolated mass in getting it back into industry. That is where your internal migration schemes, your adult training schemes and your various scales of relief will help. Then you will have isolated the great shifting mass of insured people who can be covered by insurance, the bulk of whom are in and out of employment, and whom the Fund can help during the temporary periods of unemployment. That is the only type of unemployed that an insurance scheme can really help.
Those are my ideas on this question. For nearly eight years I have been spending my time in dealing with subjects outside this country, and I come back now to my original studies on social economics. I come back with renewed vigour, if not up to date in the latest facts, to what I first studied when I entered this House. It appears to me that the whole problem of chronic unemployment, in juveniles as well, has to be solved. There are four adult training schemes. I regret that there is nothing in this Bill about them, and that not more has been said in this Bill about the result of these training centres, namely, Birmingham, Wallsend, Claydon and Brandon. These four ex- perimental stations—for they are experiments—have done a great deal. They take their people largely from the class on Poor Law relief, though a certain number come from the class on extended benefit. They are dealing, too, with the adults in that terrible age group between 20 and 29, which has the highest unemployment of any group in this country.
Their successes have been very remarkable. Six thousand unemployed have passed through those four institutions; 5,000 have been successful and only 1,000 have failed. Considering what they have come from, what the history of those cases was before they went into those institutions, that is an encouraging experiment. The saddest thing about these industrial training centres, which enable men to go into a new area and train them for a new craft in a better area, is the old intense conservatism of the internal mechanism of British industry. You get industry making difficulties about taking these trainees—difficulties from the trade union point of view and from the employers' point of view. The State in facing this problem ought to disregard both the trade union and the employers' organisation that refuses to take these trainees, trained by the money of the State and trained in order to relieve unemployment. I regret that I find nothing in the Bill to facilitate the training carried on there or the training of juveniles.
Let me come to what is, after all, the main thing which we on this side think about when we face this problem of unemployment relief. We have always protested against the optimism that both the other parties in the State have always had about their ability as politicians to deal with the problem of industry and employment—those high promises that if only the Tories were out and Labour were in, work would be found by State schemes. The Liberal party promised to reduce unemployment to the normal within 12 months. We believed that all those promises were absolutely idle. We never claimed to have a remedy, we never claimed to do it in one year. We always said that it would take time, and that the only way was the recovery of trade and industry. Only by building up the export trade, only by the reorganisation of industry on a capitalist basis will the problem gradually solve itself. All the people who tell the country that they can put a million or even a fraction of a million back into work quickly are doomed to disappointment.
We are forced with the urgent necessity of dealing with this problem of relieving unemployment on a more scientific and more modern basis than hitherto. All your new trinity, your three Ministers in one and one in three, who are only incomprehensible and possess no other qualities, will not produce your schemes. I say to the Minister of Labour, unless you decentralise you are doomed. If you decentralise on the exchanges, you are destroying yet further the whole of your exchange machinery, and you are paralysing your efficiency if you proceed on these lines. Associate yourselves in your work with the great local authorities. What is the end? That always for any little trade revival—I do not care whether it is in the basic industries or a luxury trade—every form of industry is required, every form of trade and the more diverse your civilisation the better.
Our ideal is to assist and encourage the reliant, independent man not always to look to the politician or the State either to find him a job or relieve him. It is far better for a man to be employed as an independent citizen than as a serf under the State, and we object to the whole movement which has produced the speech of the hon. Member opposite, with his bitter words to the right hon. Lady for daring to take "£5,000" a year and then talk about 5s a week for a child. That sort of speech disgusts us. And why? Because it is the outcome of a movement that has taught the men and women of this country to look to politicians and to become State dependants instead of keeping alive the ideal referred to by the hon. Member for Cirencester (Mr. W. S. Morrison) in his most remarkable maiden speech, that of economic independence, thrift and self-reliance which is the foundation of England's greatness.
The last speech contains some of the most extraordinary statements I have ever heard. In the first place, we are told that the Conservative party has never promised to abolish unemployment and that they did not say that they had a positive remedy for unemployment. [HON. MEMBERS: "Never!"] They said it twice. The first time they said their remedy was Safeguarding, but no taxes on food. They also said, in effect, that if the country did not want it they would swallow their principles; "only give us office and we will swallow everything else." They said this would cure unemployment; indeed, that it was the only thing that would cure unemployment. That was the first occasion. The right hon. Member for Edgbaston (Mr. Chamberlain) will perhaps remember the paper which was passed to him by the present Chancellor of the Exchequer where a definite statement was printed before the General Election that the Conservative party had a remedy for unemployment. That statement was taken out of the publication after the election. And we are now told that somebody else is good at promising!
Will the right hon. Gentleman quote the document?
The right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that I have not the document in my hand at the moment. He knows perfectly well that the document was passed to him. I have just had it handed to me; it says:
"Constant work at good wages will be secured for all who desire and seek it. The Unionist party has a positive remedy for unemployment."
From the "Unionist Record," issued under the registered number 2415, from the Tory headquarters. The right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that the document which was passed to him contained that sentence, and for the first time he is deliberately quibbling. He knows that the document was passed to him as he stood at this Table. Now with regard to optimism. The Conservative Government passed a Bill that assumed unemployment would diminish by nearly 400,000 in three years. At the end of four years unemployment had gone up steadily. And they talk to us about optimism! The Conservative Government in 1924 found a debt on the Insurance Fund of £7,000,000. After four and a-half years' work they left it with a debt of £37,500,000; and then they lecture us after six months of office about what we ought to do! There never was in the history of this country a more colossal failure than the four and a-half years of Conservative Government. They reduced benefits and increased the debt. We increased the benefits and reduced the debt. If anything more is needed here is another fact. Under the Labour Government wages have increased. Under the Conservative Government they went down.
What about unemployment?
The right hon. Member has brought this on his own head. If he had not talked about pledges and optimism, I should not have talked about it. In the first speech this afternoon we had a revival of the Russian bogey. Every time a Conservative Member says anything he wants to make your flesh creep. We have had it trotted out again in all its grisly ugliness, a kind of Hamlet's father's ghost:
"I could a tale unfold, whose lightest word
Would harrow up thy soul; freeze thy young blood;
Make thy two eyes, like stars, start from their spheres."
Nobody is afraid of it any more. That cock fought once, but it will not fight again. The country is in favour of our policy, and the Conservative party, or that part of it which dreamt about putting the Tsar back on the Throne— [An HON. MEMBER: "Which part?"] Is there any doubt about it? Why did we spend £100,000,000 some few years ago?
What about the Bill?
I will come to the Bill. The hon. and gallant Member did not deal entirely with the Bill. He said some things that had nothing to do with it. This is a Bill to try and deal with an emergency. When we are told that it will not last for a long time I say that it is only intended to last for a year. Nobody claims it as a permanent Measure; nobody claims that it goes to the root of the problem or is going to solve the problem. All that is said on its behalf is that it is an emergency Measure to deal with the situation pending the consideration of greater issues.
Then why consider it?
I am not going to be drawn away by sneers or jeers; I am just going along with my work. Everybody who has given the slightest consideration to the matter will know that, whatever the Governments of the future may be, some Government will finally have to face the problem of the unification of our social services, and the sooner a Government is found powerful enough to face this problem and evolve a system which will deal with all kinds of involuntary unemployment, from whatever cause it arises, sickness, invalidity, accident, unemployment, the sooner that day arrives the better. It has not arrived yet, and I am afraid it never will arrive until either we have a Government with 'a powerful majority or the three parties combine to have a system of that kind. But what does this Bill do? It continues benefit for a year to some 120,000 people, estimated, who otherwise would fall out of benefit. The Conservative party holds up its hands in holy horror and say that we are destroying the whole basis of insurance. We are doing precisely what they did in 1927.
Nonsense!
The hon. and gallant Gentleman says "Nonsense." It really shows of what his brain is made. In 1927 the Government found themselves confronted with this problem of extended benefit, people falling out of insurance, and deliberately took measures to keep them in for an extended period. Exactly what we are doing. I leave the hon. and gallant Gentleman with that. I will not insult him; I will leave him where he is.
I am very sorry if I insulted the right hon. Gentleman, and, if so, I desire absolutely to withdraw it.
These 120,000 people will be made the responsibility of the State. Why not? Why should these people, living as they do most of them in areas which are most depressed, be thrown on the local authority? Is there any reason at all for that? Is there any hon. Member who deliberately wants to make the position of these overburdened districts worse? We have claimed from the beginning that unemployment should be a national, not a local, responsibility, and it is purely in consonance with our avowed programme when we say that these 120,000 are going to be the responsibility of the State, and not of the locality.
Now with regard to "not genuinely seeking work." If ever we on this side were taught a lesson as to how words could be twisted in their meaning, the interpretation of these words "not genuinely seeking work" have taught us that lesson. To an ordinary individual they are perfectly plain. To me, when I reintroduced them in my Bill from an old Act, it seemed impossible for anyone to twist them as they have been twisted. If one-tenth of the complaints are true, indeed, if one-tenth of that one-tenth are true, they have been twisted to have a meaning which no ordinary individual in the world would imagine, and the Minister of Labour is desirous of seeing that the genuine unemployed person is not robbed of benefit because of any inability to state a case or for any reason at all if the case is genuine.
The Minister is ready to say, quite openly, that if the words of this Clause will not achieve that object, she is prepared to consider any other wording suggested in order to make it perfectly clear that the unemployed person genuinely entitled shall receive benefit. I have always held—and as far as I have had power, I have always seen that it took place—that the benefit of the doubt should be given not to a State organisation, equipped with experts, equipped with legal advice, equipped with the strength of a Department, but should be given to the poor illiterate person who is claiming benefit. If there be any doubt, the benefit of that doubt should be given in favour of that person. I am sure that the Minister would be prepared to consider in Committee any suggestion as to wording that will give to the unemployed person the benefit to which that unemployed person is legally and morally entitled. Then we are told that we are doing wrong by bringing young persons into insurance. What has been taking place for a number of years in reference to children from 14 to 161 With the exception of a few semi-charitable organisations—people who have been doing a tremendous amount of work of a voluntary character—nobody has known what was being done with the children between the ages of 14 and 16. Nobody has known whether these children have been going into dead end occupations or whether they have been walking the streets.
This Bill provides that these children, when they enter industry shall come into the Insurance scheme where at any rate it will be possible to know what is being done with them. It will give us a chance of helping these children in a better way than any private organisation could do it. There is no authority in this country as capable of giving help as an authority under the aegis of the State. They can register the children and that will give us an idea of what is being done. I remember once, if I may recall a little story, a couple of duettists appearing in a Yorkshire town. Unfortunately the bass singer had brought only the music of "Asleep in the Deep" while the tenor had only the music of "Sing Sweet Bird." They did not sing a duet, but the hon. and gallant Member for Kelvingrove (Major Elliot) and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wood Green (Mr. G. Locker-Lampson) did so on this occasion. They sang a duet but each sang a different song. The hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Kelvingrove sang about how we were going to rob the children and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wood Green sang about how we were going to give the children something for nothing. What is there wrong about this proposal? There may be a difference of opinion as to whether it is good or bad but I think there can be no difference of opinion about the intention of the Government going to help the child, and we shall certainly stick to that proposition and we hope the House generally will accept it.
The next complaint on the part of the official Opposition was that this Bill did not do enough. But all their speeches were to the effect that the Bill did too much. What do the Opposition really mean? Do they complain that we are not doing enough, or that we are doing too much, or do they complain of both? That would be quite in accordance with their ordinary criticisms. They complain about our saying that the State ought to be responsible for the men who otherwise would fall out of benefit. What do they want to do. They want these men to be handed over to the Poor Law. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I must read from the OFFICIAL REPORT if there is any doubt about it. Here is what was said by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wood Green:
If the right hon. Gentleman turns over the page, he will see that I have definitely stated that no rates would be used for that purpose.
Then we have the party opposite complaining that we are using national funds, and the right hon. Gentleman saying that they are not going to use local funds. What funds are they going to use?
The right hon. Gentleman, if he turns over the page, will see that I said that it was to be a Government grant—the very Government grant which is now being used in the Bill to deal with these people.
Then, we are to understand that this Government grant does not consist of Government funds and that it is not the Poor Law. I must leave that to the House. Let me turn, if I may, to the opposition which came from the benches on this side. I think everybody who heard the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) was deeply impressed. Nobody could deny that every word he said was true. But is it quite fair to represent this Bill as the Government policy when over and over again it has been said, inside and outside the House, that it is a mere emergency Measure? Is it quite fair to leave out of account everything that the Bill does while criticising it? Is it quite fair to represent the Government as saying that this is enough for people when everybody knows that there is not a Member of the Government who would not have liked to do much more? I want to put a plain definite question to some of my hon. Friends on this side. Do they believe that the things they have said could be passed through this House by a majority? [HON. MEMBERS: "Yes!"] You do. If you do, God help your intellect.
I do not know how my right hon. Friend draws the deductions from my speech of Thursday which he has drawn just now. Certainly, in the whole course of my speech I never made any reflection on the intelligence of the Government, but I know that my right hon. Friend described this as an emergency Measure, and my appeal on Thursday was an appeal to the Government to consider the emergency of the people who are not getting enough under this emergency Measure.
Quite so, and anybody who heard the speeches of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) and another hon. Gentleman who spoke on that side knows how much chance there would be in this House of passing the Bill.
I would have had a try. I would have had a go at it
I listened to some very hard things about myself and my colleagues. I took my gruel like a man, and I ask the hon. Member for Bridgeton to take his.
When did I ever decline to take it like a man?
If anybody in this House believes that we have a majority to pass a Bill that would give higher benefits in some cases than the actual wages of skilled men, he believes a thing which I do not believe.
You should have thought of that before you published your programme.
That, again, is a mark either of lack of consideration or lack of candour. Nobody knows better than the hon. Member that we have no majority in this House, and nobody knows better than he that we cannot carry out our programme until we have a majority. I say, and I say it with all the depth and solemnity of my nature, that I am as fond of the children as any man in this House, but the man who misleads the unemployed by making them believe that this Bill could be passed with all these things in it can believe anything. [ Interruption. ] Such talk is only like sounding brass and tinkling cymbals. [ Interruption. ] It is filling the stomachs of the unemployed with the east wind. So much for opposition which has been very definitely stated, and I think ought to be quite as definitely referred to in reply. Of course, no one on these benches believes that this is an ideal Measure. Nobody believes that it is enough. The question is, do we believe that in the circumstances it is as much as we can get. It is because I am of opinion that it is pretty well as much as we can get that I am supporting it, and if I did not support it, I should feel myself disgraced in the eyes of the unemployed who are likely to suffer if they do not get anything at all.
Let me say a few words to the Liberal party, and I apologise to the House for taking up so much time. When the hon. Member for Westmorland (Mr. O. Stanley) talked about the minatory finger of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs, he was using a word which I had in my own mind. We were told pretty plainly by the right hon. Gentleman, and more plainly still by one of his colleagues, that we were a minority and that we might find ourselves in a difficulty. Well, I think I can say a few plain words to the Liberal party, because personally I have never been one of those who jeered and sneered. I have never yet been able to understand that type of mentality in man or woman which indulges in jeers and sneers of that kind when either an individual or a party is going through bad times. The right hon. Gentleman spoke pretty plainly, and it is as well perhaps that we should speak just as plainly. If what the right hon. Gentleman means by a Council of State is that the Liberal party is prepared to come in and help give the unemployed good conditions, well and good, he will find willing co-operation on our part; but, if what he means is that the miserable things that we are able to do must be still further cut down, I think he will find that there are limits beyond which we cannot go.
I was dealing at that time with the policy of the Government, or what I conceived to be the policy of the Government, to provide work for the unemployed. I was not dealing in the least with the question of allowances.
Then I must refresh the right hon. Gentleman's memory. Does the right hon. Gentleman forget what he said about the benefits for young people? I think that, if he looks up his speech, he will find that he made certain very definite statements, and said that he did not like these scales, and he certainly indicated to the House that he thought they were too high. May I put it plainly that these scales are very low indeed, and that the right hon. Gentleman has sufficient acquaintance with working-class life to know that the ordinary working-class family have a terrible time of it, however well the father is paid, while the children are growing up, and that often they rely on the children between the ages of 14 and 20 to help them. I went through the mill myself, and I know what I am talking about when I say that they rely on their children, and particularly in Lancashire, from 14 to 20 years of age to help them to pay off the debt they incurred while they were bringing up the family; and to say that these benefits are too high is, to me, absolutely unthinkable. On those, I think there can be no possibility of a compromise whatever.
I know the right hon. Gentleman spoke about employment and I think that what he said about employment was worthy of being listened to. Everybody on this side believes that it is infinitely preferable to pay for work done than to pay for nothing. Everybody in the House, without exception, is eating his or her heart out to find a way of doing it, of providing work instead of providing benefits, but in the meantime what have we to do with those for whom we do not find work? We say that they must not be allowed to go below the standard they are at and that at the earliest possible moment that standard should be raised. May I call the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to the fact that perhaps he himself has things a little bit out of proportion? He accused my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal of being too much of a railwayman, and he asked him to get off his engine. Is he so obsessed by the fact that there are some old Roman bridges and roads near his country home? Is it not a fact that the right hon. Gentleman may be accused of having too much of a road sense, just as he accuses my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal of having too much of a railway sense?
Why not have both?
If there is a conversation between the two, we might get roads and railways, drainage, afforestation, and a hundred other things, and God speed the man, from whatever side he comes, who can contribute a useful idea. The right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs called attention to the growing expenditure and the crushing weight of these social services, and he said, in picturesque words that he alone in the House has the power of using, how that to every individual thing we had brought before the House could be answered. "Yes, it is good," but how that the culmination, the completion of the whole scheme might be an altogether unbearable burden. I am going to suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that he and the House might begin to consider a burden infinitely bigger than the social services. I am going to suggest to him that under his Government and under every Government since we have followed a policy which has led this country into paying at least £100,000,000 a year to people who have not the slightest moral right to it. I will tell the right hon. Gentleman exactly what I mean. During the War we had money lent to us at inflated rates, and we adopted after the War a financial policy of deflation, and now we are paying interest on the deflated money. Here is an anti-Socialist paper that sums up the figures, and I think the figures are fairly accurate. Says the "Individualist:"
"The money lending classes have controlled the Cabinet and Parliament. During the War the British public lent the Government £7,500,000,000, in paper money, but the average value of that at the time in gold was only about £5,000,000,000. After the War a committee of bankers, called the Cunliffe Committee, advised the Government to reduce the number of banknotes in the country, as that would increase their value in gold. This began in 1920, at a time when the trade of the country was very good."
They have followed that policy ever since —[ Interruption. ] I am not blaming anybody in particular, but this is the fact, and it is a fact that has to be faced, either now or later, in any case before this country is ever going to be on its feet again. We were told by the right hon. Gentleman about the conditions in Germany and in France, how that in France there are no unemployed. Germany, of course, went through an exceptional set of circumstances, and anybody who knows
anything about Germany knows what the position was like during the time of inflation, when money simply ceased to have any value at all, so that Germany can be left out of account for the purposes of comparison, with this exception, that her industrial methods of concentration, of co-ordination, of centralisation, of scientific management, of scientific buying and selling have lifted her out of the morass, and unless we adopt those methods, I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that we shall stay where we are.
France did not pay interest in deflated money on money that she borrowed at an. inflated rate. She did not do it, and the result is that you have France with not a single unemployed person, introducing millions of Italians to work for her. [An HON. MEMBER: "Millions?"] Yes, I said that Italians in France run into the millions. I say it quite deliberately, that the Italians now in France are in the millions, that they run over the million; and there, in my opinion, is a subject that is well worth the consideration of a Council of State. One right hon. Gentleman once accused a Tory Chancellor of the Exchequer of having introduced a rentier Budget. We have produced a rentier State, and we are paying through the nose. There is a thing to start considering at once, and I make that as my contribution to the things that might be considered in the reviving of industry.
In conclusion, this Bill, to repeat what I said at the beginning, is a very, very modest thing, only intended to be a stop gap. It is not intended to be a permanency. It has never been represented as being a permanency, but it will make the shoe a little bit easier in some places where it pinches badly. That is all we claim for it, and it is with the utmost confidence that I ask the House to give it a Second Reading.
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
The House divided: Ayes, 299; Noes, 213.
Division No. 46.] AYES. [7.52 p.m. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Amman, Charles George Attlee, Clement Richard Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Angell, Norman Ayles, Walter Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro') Arnott, John Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Alpass, J. H. Aske, Sir Robert Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley) Barnes, Alfred John Hall, Capt. W. P. (Portsmouth, C.) Montague, Frederick Barr, James Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn) Morgan, Dr. H. B. Batey, Joseph Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Zetland) Morley, Ralph Beckett, John (Camberwell, Peckham) Harbison, T. J. Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh) Bellamy, Albert Hardie, George D. Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South) Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood Harris, Percy A. Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.) Bennett, Captain E. N. (Cardiff, Central) Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Mort, D. L. Bennett, William (Battersea, South) Hastings, Dr. Somerville Moses, J. J. H. Benson, G. Haycock, A. W. Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent) Bentham, Dr. Ethel Hayday, Arthur Mosley, Sir Oswald (Smethwick) Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale) Hayes, John Henry Muff, G. Birkett, W. Norman Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Muggeridge, H. T. Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret Henderson, Arthur, junr. (Cardiff, S.) Nathan, Major H. L. Bowen, J. W. Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) Naylor, T. E. Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Broad, Francis Alfred Herriotts, J. Noel Baker, P. J. Brockway, A. Fenner Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth) Oldfield, J. R. Bromfield, William Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley) Bromley, J. Hoffman, P. C. Owen, Major G. (Carnarvon) Brooke, W. Hollins, A. Palin, John Henry Brothers, M. Hopkin, Daniel Paling, Wilfrid Brown, C. W. E. (Notts. Mansfield) Hore-Belisha, Leslie Palmer, E. T. Brown, Ernest (Leith) Horrabin, J. F. Perry, S. F. Brown, W. J. (Wolverhampton, West) Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) Peters, Dr. Sidney John Buchanan, G. Hunter, Dr. Joseph Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Burgess, F. G. Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R. Phillips, Dr. Marion Burgin, Dr. E. L. Isaacs, George Picton-Turbervill, Edith Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland) Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Pole, Major D. G. Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel (Norfolk, N.) Johnston, Thomas Ponsonby, Arthur Caine, Derwent Hall- Jones, F. Llewellyn-(Flint) Potts, John S. Cameron, A. G. Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Price, M. P. Cape, Thomas Jones, Rt. Hon Leif (Camborne) Pybus, Percy John Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.) Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Ramsay, T. B. Wilson Charleton, H. C. Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. Rathbone, Eleanor Chater, Daniel Jowitt, Rt. Hon. Sir W. A. Richards, R. Church, Major A. G. Kelly, W. T. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Cluse, W. S. Kennedy, Thomas Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees) Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Ritson, J. Cocks, Frederick Seymour Kinley, J. Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) Kirkwood, D. Romeril, H. G. Compton, Joseph Knight, Holford Rosbotham, D. S. T. Cove, William G. Lang, Gordon Rothschild, J. de Daggar, George Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George Rowson, Guy Dallas, George Lathan, G. Salter, Dr. Alfred Dalton, Hugh Law, Albert (Bolton) Samuel, H. W. (Swansea, West) Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Law, A. (Rosendale) Sanders, W. S. Day, Harry Lawrence, Susan Sandham, E. Denman, Hon. R. D. Lawson, John James Sawyer, G. F. Devlin, Joseph Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle) Scott, James Dickson, T. Leach, W. Scrymgeour, E. Dudgeon, Major C. R. Lee, Frank (Derby, N. E.) Scurr, John Dukes, C. Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern) Sexton, James Duncan, Charles Lees, J. Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Ede, James Chuter Lewis, T. (Southampton) Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Edge, Sir William Lindley, Fred W. Sherwood, G. H. Edmunds, J. E. Lloyd, C. Ellis Shield, George William Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Longbottom, A. W. Shiels, Dr. Drummond Edwards, E. (Morpeth) Lovat-Fraser, J. A. Shillaker, J. F. Egan, W. H. Lowth, Thomas Shinwell, E. Elmley, Viscount Lunn, William Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) Simmons, C. J. Foot, Isaac, McElwee, A. Sinclair, Sir A. (Caithness) Forgan, Dr. Robert McEntee, V. L. Smith, Alfred (Sunderland) Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) Mackinder, W. Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.) McKinlay, A. Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd (Car'vn) MacLaren, Andrew Smith, Rennie (Penistone) George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Smith, Tom (Pontefract) George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea) MacNeill-Weir, L. Smith, W. R. (Norwich) Gill, T. H. McShane, John James Snowden, Thomas (Accrington) Gillett, George M. Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Sorensen, R. Glassey, A. E. Mander, Geoffrey le M. Spero, Dr. G. E. Gosling, Harry Mansfield, W. Stamford, Thomas W. Gossling, A. G. March, S. Stephen, Campbell Gould, F. Marcus, M. Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Markham, S. F. Strachey, E. J. St. Loe Granville, E. Marley, J. Strauss, G. R. Gray, Milner Mathers, George Sutton, J. E. Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne). Matters, L. W. Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Maxton, James Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.) Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.) Melville, Sir James Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Messer, Fred Thorne, W. (West Ham. Plaistow) Groves, Thomas E. Middleton, G. Thurtle, Ernest Grundy, Thomas W. Millar, J. D. Tillett, Ben Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Mills, J. E. Tinker, John Joseph Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Milner, J. Toole, Joseph
Tout, W. J. Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) Townend, A. E. Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah Wilson, J. (Oldham) Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Wellock, Wilfred Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Turner, B. West, F. R. Winterton, G. E.(Leicester, Loughb'gh) Vaughan, D. J. Westwood, Joseph Wise, E. F. Viant, S. P. Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff) Walker, J. White, H. G. Wright, W. (Rutherglen) Wallace, H. W. Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood) Wallhead, Richard C. Wilkinson, Ellen C. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Tudor Williams, David (Swansea, East) Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Watkins, F. C. Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Wbiteley. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) NOES. Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles Elliot, Major Walter E. Moore, Sir Newton J. (Richmond) Albery, Irving James Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s, M.) Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Everard, W. Lindsay Morden, Col. W. Grant Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l., W.) Fade, Sir Bertram G. Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester) Allen, W. E. D. (Belfast, W.) Ferguson, Sir John Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Fielden, E. B. Muirhead, A. J. Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Fison, F. G. Clavering Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Astor, Maj. Hon. John J. (Kent, Dover) Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Nicholson, O. (Westminster) Astor, Viscountess Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. w. G. (Ptrsf'ld) Atkinson, C. Galbraith, J. F. W. Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley) Ganzoni, Sir John Oman, Sir Charles William C. Balfour, George (Hampstead) Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley) Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William Balfour, Captain H. H. (l. of Thanet) Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Peake, Capt. Osbert Balniel, Lord Glyn, Major R. G. C. Penny, Sir George Beaumont, M. W. Gower, Sir Robert Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Bellairs, Commander Carlyon Grace, John Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Berry, Sir George Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Pilditch, Sir Philip Bevan, S. J. (Holborn) Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Power, Sir John Cecil Bird, Ernest Roy Greene, W. P. Crawford Pownall, Sir Assheton Boothby, R. J. G. Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Purbrick, R. Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John Ramsbotham, H. Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart Gritten, W. G. Howard Rawson, Sir Cooper Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W. Gunston, Captain D. W. Reid, David D. (County Down) Boyce, H. L. Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. Remer, John R. Bracken, B. Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Rentoul, Sir Gervais S. Braithwaite, Major A. N. Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford) Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall) Brass, Captain Sir William Hammersley, S. S. Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Briscoe, Richard George Hanbury, C. Ross, Major Ronald D. Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) Harmon, Patrick Joseph Henry Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Hartington, Marquess of Salmon, Major I. Buchan, John Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Buckingham, Sir H. Haslam, Henry C. Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Bullock, Captain Malcolm Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart Burton, Colonel H. W. Herbert, Sir Dennis (Hertford) Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D. Butler, R. A. Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by) Savery, S. S. Butt, Sir Alfred Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller Shakespeare, Geoffrey H. Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome Castle Stewart, Earl of Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down) Cautley, Sir Henry S. Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's U., Belfast) Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Hurd, Percy A. Skelton, A. N. Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.) Iveagh, Countess of Smith-Carington, Neville W. Cazalet, Captain Victor A. James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Smithers, Waldron Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) Somerset, Thomas Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.) Kindersley, Major G. M. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston) King, Commodore Rt. Hon. Henry D. Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East) Christie, J. A. Knox, Sir Alfred Southby, Commander A. R. J. Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Lamb, Sir J. Q. Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George Lane Fox, Rt. Hon. George R. Stanley, Lord (Fylde) Cohen, Major J. Brunel Law, Sir Alfred (Derby, High Peak) Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland) Colman, N. C. D. Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) Stewart, W. J. (Belfast, South) Conway, Sir W. Martin Leighton, Major B. E. P. Stuart, J. C. (Moray and Nairn) Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. Lewis, Oswald (Colchester) Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F. Cranbourne, Viscount Little, Dr. E. Graham Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton) Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Llewellin, Major J. J. Thomson, Sir F. Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey Tinne, J. A. Croom-Johnson, R. P. Long, Major Eric Todd, Capt. A. J. Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West) Lymington, Viscount Train, J. Cunliffe-Lister. Rt. Hon. Sir Philip McConnell, Sir Joseph Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Dalkeith, Earl of Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford) Macquisten, F. A. Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey) Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. MacRobert, Rt. Hon. Alexander M. Ward. Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) Davies, Dr. Vernon Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) Wardlaw-Milne, J. S. Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil) Makins, Brigadier-General E. Warrender, Sir Victor Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Margesson, Captain H. D. Waterhouse, Captain Charles Dawson, Sir Philip Marjoribanks, E. C. Wayland, Sir William A. Duckworth, G. A. V. Meller, R. J. Wells, Sydney R. Dugdale, Capt. T. L. Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) Eden, Captain Anthony Mitchell-Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Edmondson, Major A. J. Mond, Hon. Henry Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Withers, Sir John James Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount Wright, Brig.-Gen. W. D. (Tavist'k) Commander Sir Eyres Monsell Womersley, W. J. Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton and Sir George Hennessy. Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley
Bill read a Second time.
Bill committed to a Committee of the whole House for Thursday.—[ Miss Bond-field. ]
Unemployment Insurance [Money]
Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 71 A.
[Mr. DUNNICO in the Chair.]
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That for the purpose of any Act of the present Session to amend the Unemployment Insurance Acts, 1920 to 1929 (hereinafter referred to as "the said Act"), it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys provided by Parliament—
I should like now to give the Committee details of the financial provisions of the Bill, and to deal specially with the points raised in the Money Resolution; and I propose to follow the order of the Money Resolution. In paragraph ( a, i) we are giving effect to the recommendation of the National Advisory Councils by bridging the gap between the school-leaving age and the age for entering into insurance as it now obtains. I have been a little surprised at the line taken in connection with this particular paragraph, because it really implies an ignorance, which I cannot believe exists, as to what is actually happening at the present time. The bridging of the gap is done, not for the sake of bringing a few paltry hundreds of pounds into the fund; it is done in the interests of the children themselves. Those of us who have had experience of child labour in industry are confident that this is going to be one of the ways by which it will be possible to bring children into industry while they are still under the influence of the school environment and perhaps under the influence of some form of instruction centre.
At present what happens? A child leaves school and is plunged into the industrial environment, and because of this gap there is no means, except purely by accident, as it were, if the child voluntarily happens to turn up, by which we can trace the manner of the children's entry into industry, or what is happening to them there. When they come back to us at the age of 16 years, under present arrangements the work which might have been continuous in regard to the educational development of the child has been so interrupted, that they have not only lost that period of assistance, but have lost ground compared with the position they occupied when they left school. The main purpose of this paragraph is to insure that when a child enters wage-earning employment, that child shall at the same time, the moment it is unemployed, be brought into contact with the machinery which is being developed under the ægis of the Juvenile Employment Committees. The net cost is so small that I cannot believe anyone on any side of the Committee would make any real objection to it on the ground of cost.
The hon. and gallant Member for Kelvingrove (Major Elliot) appeared to have misunderstood the Actuary's report when he talked about getting £600,000 from the pockets of the children. The total sum that will come to the Fund from the three-fold source is £600,000, and slightly less than £200,000 will be contributed by boys and girls directly; that is, by deductions from their wages. Against that is set the probable expenditure of benefit, which whenever possible is only paid on condition that it is accompanied by attendance at classes, and that amount is £100,000. There will also be deducted the cost of training, which we regard as a fundamental part of the scheme, and which we hope to continue to develop on even broader lines than at present. There is really therefore no case to be made in regard to this being any tax upon the child.
With regard to the general question of the principle of insurance, we have had a most astonishing argument coming from the Conservative Benches. The economics of an insurance scheme is that people should pay into the scheme in the first years more than they need to draw out in those years, and that perfectly simple axiom of insurance is surely not too much to apply when an entrant is first coming into insurance. The whole basis of our Insurance Acts rests upon a collective view. I am not claiming this for my own party; the whole House has agreed to the principle that those who are in regular employment should help those whose employment is intermittent, and that principle has been accepted as the very basis of the insurance scheme to which the House has consented.
Paragraph ( a, ii) refers to Clause 10 of the Bill. It is just a small matter which has given a great deal of irritation to a small group of highly-skilled men. I take power under Clause 10 to continue insurance for those skilled workmen who are sent abroad under contract, and who, when the contract ends, come back to this country. If men go out under contract to build a bridge abroad under present circumstances, if the operation takes longer than two years, they lose all their insurance rights, and they come back having to requalify, as it were, from the start. We feel that this is quite a small matter—a very small sum, in money is actually involved—but we think that it is worth while trying to make this accommodation for the purpose of maintaining the skilled men in the scheme.
Paragraph ( a, iii) relates to the proposed amendment of Section 5 of the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1920. It is the first minor amendment of the Second Schedule of the Bill as printed. Section 5 (5) of the Act of 1920 provided that contributions should not be payable in respect of any person who is in receipt of an old age pension under the Old Age Pensions Acts, 1908 to 1919. Section 39 (1) of the Widows', Orphans' and Old Age-Contributory Pensions Act, 1925, provides that as from the 2nd January, 1928, contributions shall be payable in the manner and at the rates applicable to exempt persons in respect of every employed person of the age of 65 or upwards. My legal advice is that the contributions are already payable, and the practice of my Department has been based on this. The proposed Amendment of the Bill has the purpose of putting this point beyond doubt. It is one of those little slips in drafting between one Act and another which requires this Amendment in order to straighten it out. In the case of exempt persons, the employer and Exchequer pay contributions but not the workman. It is estimated that the cost to the Exchequer for the present year will be about £20,000.
In Paragraph ( b ) (i) and (ii) we definitely adopt a new principle in connection with finance. It has met with approval by speakers from both benches opposite. It is that the present working of the transitional arrangements under the existing legislation will gradually but automatically place 120,000 persons out of insurable benefit, and, unless some other steps are taken, on to the Poor Law guardians. These 120,000 persons in the main are from the areas where local authorities are in the deepest financial distress. Very largely for that reason, it was felt impossible, even if there were not other reasons, to throw these persons on to the Poor Law authorities who are already bankrupt and cannot get further overdrafts. Therefore, we come to the House quite honestly, and tell them that we are asking the Treasury to meet the whole cost for 12 months. I use the words "12 months," because it will be in the nature of a complete financial year. Half of the amount will be paid in the year 1930–31 and half in the financial year 1931–32.
We must really face up to the difficulty in which we find ourselves, and consider, if we do not do it this way, what other possible way there is. There is the way of the late Government of extending the margin of borrowing powers. They extended it from £30,000,000 to £40,000,000, and then said it was to go back to £30,000,000 at the end of 1930. Having done it once, they can do it again. If you came forward and wiped out the limit of borrowing powers at £40,000,000, and went on borrowing to £50,000,000 or £60,000,000, it would be a dishonest course, because it would be contracting a debt that you saw no possible way of paying off. Therefore, I have dismissed definitely from my consideration any question of increasing the borrowing powers of the Fund. There is the third alternative of increasing the contributions of the employer, the worker, and the Treasury, or of one or the other of these three parties. One need not consider that very long to realise that it would do more harm than good. It has been pointed out that large numbers of insured persons are paying an excessive rate of contribution, if that is measured in relation to the risk they run. It is because a man is already asked to pay a substantial contribution for benefits which in many cases the insurance fund is not called upon to deliver, that we feel that the raising of the contribution of the workman is out of the question. For the same reason, it is out of the question to raise the contribution of the employer.
The only other party that remains is the Treasury, and we propose in our Bill an increased contribution from that source. We have quite definitely limited this to twelve months. I informed the House when I introduced the Bill that we want this 12 months' space because the Government have already set up a committee which is at work upon that larger scheme which the right hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Ormsby-Gore) so eloquently described. I may say quite definitely that there is absolutely nothing in that speech which has not already been in the minds of the Committee. There is no new idea that has come from that bench which is not already in the minds of the Committee set up to consider the larger question, namely, what is to be the plan by the time this Act expires of social relief on a more scientific basis. I welcome the promise beforehand that, if we can bring forward a scientific basis for the relief of distress, the party opposite are already committed to the support of such a scheme.
Paragraph ( c ) of the Motion relates to a minor Amendment of Section 41 of the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1920, contained in the second Schedule to the Bill. The Amendment provides for the inclusion of a small number of soldiers in the classes for whom the War Office and the Treasury pay contributions at a special rate estimated to cover the cost of paying them benefit in a period of about two years after discharge. The number will be few and the cost to the Exchequer will be negligible. We cannot possibly give the actual figure, but it is a very small sum indeed.
The increased cost of the additional benefits will be, first of all: Increased cost of benefit to young persons, £375,000. I would like to expand my reasons for this, but they are reasons which are more appropriate for the Committee stage, and I will confine myself to saying now that there are certain real advantages in the re-grouping which has been made in connection with young persons' scales. The group 18 to 20 will now be in a position to be treated as a sort of unified group for purposes of training and re-conditioning, in a way which would be cumbersome if the amounts were split up as they are at present; but, apart from that, I wish to emphasise the fact that it is my intention to use the powers which I now possess in connection with training and reconditioning to the fullest possible extent in connection with the administration of this particular section.
Does the right hon. Lady think that under the terms of the Financial Resolution, she has enough money for the necessary extensions of the training?
Yes. This does not deal with the training expenditure. This deals only with actual increases in the rates of benefit, and the total sum is £375,000. The increase of dependants' benefit amounts to £1,750,000. Of that sum, £1,650,000 will go direct to the "wife's benefit," as I have described it, and £100,000 covers all the other adjustments in connection with other categories of dependants' benefits. The cost of the changes in conditions and methods of determining the claims is estimated at £3,250,000, and you may say that covers Clauses 4, 5, 6, 7, and 12. We have based that figure upon an analysis of the class of cases which would be covered by the improved conditions of administration. I think the right hon. Member for Wood Green (Mr. G. Locker-Lampson) was not quite accurate when he described the Actuary's finding on this Clause, and with the permission of the House I would like to quote that part of the sentence which he did not read. It is very important that the House should understand exactly how we arrived at this particular figure. The right hon. Gentleman read the first six lines from page 5 of the Actuary's report. The Actuary also stated:
The fourth item of expenditure is the contribution by the Fund towards the cost of training persons under 21. That is the contribution of £100,000 by the Insurance Fund. That does not end the question, because that does not include the Exchequer contribution to training, particularly in connection with the necessary expenditure that will be incurred on the most difficult group, the transitional group. This is a matter of training those who are within the Insurance Fund. These items together give the total of £5,470,000. Of this total, about £1,470,000 will be paid to persons under transitional conditions, and £4,000,000 to persons under permanent conditions. The £1,470,000 paid to persons under transitional conditions is part of the £8,000,000 which is the cost of the transitional claims. If, therefore, we add the £8,000,000 to the £4,000,000 which is the cost of the additional benefit paid under the permanent conditions, we get £12,000,000 as the total cost of the additional benefits for a full year. To meet this, the Exchequer will pay over to the Insurance Fund £8,500,000 in relation to transitional conditions and £3,500,000 will be provided for under the Act which was passed in July, both of these dating back to the beginning of the present financial year. A sum of £500,000 is the normal increase of the Treasury contributions owing to the normal growth of insured persons. That makes a total of £12,500,000.
Under this arrangement, the income and the expenditure of the Fund will balance at the point of 1,200,000 persons on the live register. I wish that to be perfectly clear; it will balance at the point of 1,200,000 persons on the register. Everybody hopes that the numbers on the register will be a great deal less, but my business is to make it absolutely certain that I have the money with which to pay these people if they are on the Fund and that we do not again run into a deeper bog than the one we have just emerged from. The Conservative party added more than £30,000,000 to the debt of the Fund, and so reduced the income of the Fund that it would provide for 200,000 fewer persons than when they took office.
May I ask whether we have to pay interest on that £30,000,000?
Yes, we have to pay a very heavy sum of interest. I have to pay £2,000,000 a year interest out of this Fund. I believe I have now balanced the Fund, I believe my finance to be good, and because I know the House appreciates sound finance I hope I shall get my Money Resolution.
The Committee is grateful to the Minister of Labour for her explanation of the Money Resolution. It needs explanation. We hope such Resolutions are not going to become as unintelligible as Bills. It is a great pity when the House of Commons does not understand a Bill, but it is even more to be regretted when the House in Committee cannot understand a Money Resolution, because that decides a burden to be placed on the taxpayers. The Minister of Labour has done her best to remove confusion; she has taken this opportunity of further explaining this Measure. The most striking thing with regard to her speech is what she has not said. She has not given us information in regard to the finances of this Bill compared with the general financial state of the country. That is quite natural, because it is not her task, but it is to be regretted that on this occasion we have not on the Treasury Bench a Minister representing the Treasury who can give us some assistance in this respect
I should have thought that a Minister representing the Treasury would have hastened to the House to elucidate the situation produced by the remarkable pronouncement made by the Secretary of State for War in the speech which he has just delivered. That speech was made by a leading Member of the Cabinet, just before an important Division, with every appearance of responsibility. We must take it no doubt as a preliminary announcement of the policy of the Government which, of course, will have to await the full confirmation which I am sure the Chancellor of the Exchequer will be delighted to give it. I hope that confirmation will not be long delayed, because such a pronouncement as that by the Secretary of State for War must cause some slight anxiety in commercial, financial, and industrial circles. It is essential that the matter should be cleared up as soon as possible.
What is the new policy that has been announced by the Secretary of State for War? It is the saving of £100,000,000 a year by taking into consideration the alleged fact that the holders of Government War Loan are enjoying some supposed illegitimate value due to the fact that there has been a deflation in the value of money. In the first place, the Secretary of State for War cannot be ignorant of the opinion which is held in all responsible financial circles that his contention is a delusion, because there is no such unearned increment in the hands of the holders of Government stock. The right hon. Gentleman's statement is based on ignorance of the fact that a great part of the Government Loan was issued before there was any inflation in the value of money at all. But more important is this. There are only three methods by which the value can be got at. The first is by confiscation, the second by repudiation, and the third by inflation. If the value is there, you can get at it by reducing the interest on the National Debt. That would be confiscation
I do not want to interfere unduly with the right hon. Gentleman, but we are not now discussing the speech of the Secretary of State for War. We are discussing the Money Resolution which is now before the Committee. A reply to the speech of the Secretary of State for War might be appropriate on some other occasion, but not on this Resolution.
Then I will let that pass with the observation that I think it will be appropriate for a Minister representing the Treasury to relieve our anxiety on the matter to which I have referred as soon as possible. There are other important financial aspects of this Resolution in regard to which we should have been grateful for assistance. The Committee is seized of the fact that with a long, difficult, and complicated Resolution of this sort we are, in fact, having our hands tied by the procedure of the House. I do not impute any impropriety, but, having our hands tied in this way, we shall not be free to deal with these questions in Committee. This is the first opportunity we have of discussing the general financial aspect of the Unemployment Insurance Bill, and it will be the last opportunity. The first matter raised by this Resolution is the whole status of the Insurance Fund. A most interesting statement which has been made by the Minister of Labour not on one but on two occasions is, that a comparison between 1924 and 1929 shows that the income of the Fund has been reduced by £7,000,000; and that, during that period the debt of the Fund has been increased from £5,000,000 to £37,000,000, and what I may call the live register capacity has been reduced by 200,000.
If I follow the argument of the Minister of Labour correctly these facts were produced in order to point out an alleged undue optimism on the part of the Conservative party. Far from that, these facts bring to the eye, in an unmistakable form, that when we are considering what is supposed to be an insurance Fund we are in fact dealing with something which is in no sense of the word a true insurance fund. As an insurance scheme this has fallen into ruins, and it is no longer a true insurance scheme at all. The Minister of Labour spoke about there being a political deception in increasing the debt of the Fund. There is just as much deception in the right hon. Lady's statement that she has balanced the Fund. It has not been balanced as an Insurance Fund. The right hon. Lady has balanced the Fund by means of a contribution of £8,000,000 from the State Exchequer which is not an insurance contribution at all.
I wish to correct an obvious misunderstanding. The balancing of the Fund is at £1,200,000, and the legitimate expenditure of the Fund is balanced by the figures contained in the Measures we are taking.
A good deal is involved in the word "legitimate." The contribution of £8,500,000 is not a legitimate insurance contribution. The Minister of Labour will learn that there are balances and balances, legitimate and illegitimate. We cannot accept the right hon. Lady's description of a balance achieved by means of this contribution as being sound finance. The Insurance Fund, as an Insurance Fund, is lying in ruins. It possesses neither of the two characteristics of a real insurance fund. All insurance is based upon two essential characteristics. The first is that it is insuring against something which is a risk, and a risk is something which is not a certainty. It Is usually something which is less rather than more likely; at any rate it is not a certainty. In dealing with the present so-called risks of the Insurance Fund as regards this unfortunate number of between 150,000 and 200,000 that the Fund cannot carry, we are dealing with unemployment which is not a risk but a certainty. That is not insurance. The second characteristic of all insurance is that it is self-supporting. The basis of soundness of an insurance fund is that the premium income is sufficient to provide its benefits, but that is not even the contention now as regards this Insurance Fund.
It may be asked, what does it matter whether it is insurance or not? I think it matters most profoundly, because to continue to profess that this is a scheme of insurance is to deceive the people of the country by concealing from them the true position of the finances of the country. It means unsound finance and confused thinking. It is deceiving the people of the country by giving the impression that the risk of insurance is being supported by itself on its own finance. That is not so. The people are not being given the essential opportunity of judging the financial position of the whole country. That, as has been argued with so much ability in the course of this Debate by my right hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Mr. Ormsby-Gore), can only be done by finally and courageously separating off from the Insurance Fund the risks which have become uninsurable. The Minister of Labour in her opening speech on this matter said that she was only continuing the policy adopted, as regards the transitional period, by the Conservative Government. I am not profoundly impressed by that argument. In the first place, every General Election is followed by what we may call a period of tu quoque, or "You're another." The ability of a Government is to be measured by the success with which it manages to shorten that period and to get on with its real constructive arguments. Let us rid our minds for the moment of partisan feeling. There was a time when it was possible to look forward to the transitional period as leading to something which would be better, which would put the Insurance Scheme back upon a sound foundation. I do not want to say whether the Conservative Government were to blame or not to blame for failing to see that that time was past, but I have no doubt at all that the present Government, with their added experience, are to blame for failing to see that the time has come when there is no excuse for pretending that the transitional period will be followed by a period which lies ahead of us when the Fund will be self-supporting.
Let me pass to another aspect—an aspect of the most vital importance—of the finances of the Bill, and that is the aspect in relation to the general finances of the country. I desire to confine myself strictly to the Resolution, but, when we are considering whether or not we should add this charge to the burdens of the country, it is impossible to affect to be ignorant of the fact that this is not the only new charge. It would be idle to pretend that it is totally unconnected in logic with the means that we have at our disposal to meet such charges. What is the situation? By this Bill we are adding a charge of £12,500,000 to the Exchequer. It is necessary to consider the formidable amount of this figure. It is an addition by a single Bill. I cannot think at the moment of any other single occasion in this House of recent years on which we have added at once so big a charge to our national burdens. And what we have to consider to-day is that it is not that solitary charge. It is part, as we have recently been told by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, of fresh additional burdens of no less than £19,000,000 which have been added by the Government to the finances of next year, £12,500,000 for insurance, including £3,500,000 by the Government's first Bill. The other principal item is £5,300,000 for widows' pensions. That, however, is not the end. We cannot profess to be ignorant that the Government have schemes ahead for expenditure on housing, and that more money is to be spent on reducing the school age—very popular schemes with hon. Members opposite, and all costing money. And last, but by no means least, we know that there are to be added fresh charges upon the Exchequer for schemes by the Lord Privy Seal to cure unemployment.
I do not attempt to fix a figure upon what this expenditure will amount to. It is £19,000,000 already; what it will be by the time the Budget is introduced we do not know. We do not know what the expenditure which we are voting to-day will be. The Government do not profess to fix a limit to the increased expenditure owing to the relaxation of restrictions in the "genuinely seeking work" Clause; we only know that it may be much bigger than is estimated now. Now let us look at the other side of the picture. I imagine that no Member of this Committee is going to be so irresponsible as to say that, when you are considering the expenditure of public money, for whatever purpose, it is unnecessary to consider how the money is going to be obtained. This is not the occasion, of course, to consider how we are going to get it, but it is the occasion to point out that these are not times in which it is responsible or prudent to incur fresh large sums of unproductive expenditure. Let us consider the general state of affairs by a mere reference to the revenue of the country. I have sufficient experience—not very long, but sufficient—of Treasury administration, to know that it is not safe to prophesy what the revenue is going to be until the last month of the year. I am certainly not going to prophesy to-night. But we also know, and can tell by what I would call the atmosphere and the hall-marks of the year's business, whether it is going to be a good year for revenue or not. Does anybody now suppose that this year's revenue is going to be up to our expectations at the beginning of the year? I am afraid that, if they do, it is a very optimistic expectation. We have had one of the most severe slumps in the financial world that we have had for many a year. That is a sort of event which has an immediate sharp reaction upon the revenue for the year. [An HON. MEMBER: "Hatry!"] I do not think that Hatry was the cause; I think that Hatry was an effect. Unfortunately in the financial world you almost always have a wretched percentage of fraud. That is human nature. I do not know of any organisation that is not liable to some percentage of fraud. But when you have a bad time, such as we were having this year, principally on account of over-speculation in the United States, then these frauds are laid bare and brought to the surface by the general depression. It is a good thing that they should be exposed, but it is a bad thing that they should be there. We must look upon Hatry as an effect and not as the cause.
The point is that this year we must not expect abounding revenue. Death Duties, Income Tax, Stamp Duties, and so on, must all be seriously affected by these events. Pile on now these fresh burdens, and you are confronted with—what? You are confronted with a deficit at the end of the year. Again I refrain from prophesying. I do not say that there will be a deficit; but I say that the conditions are such at the present moment that a prudent Legislature would not look upon this as a time suitable for an expansion of national charges. This applies to the finances of next year; but it must be remembered that the financial crisis—for I can use no less a word—which is being brought to the surface in such Money Re-solutions as this which we are passing tonight, is one of more immediate application; indeed, it is actually coming into being in this financial year, and not merely in the next. These fresh schemes of expenditure will cast a fresh burden of £8,000,000 upon the finances of this year which is passing. Those causes for the reduction of revenue to which I have referred are of the sort which begin to tell at once. They tell upon the revenue of this year. If the unfavourable expectations to which I have referred are realised, the result will be that at the end of this year there will be a deficit, and an inroad upon the Sinking Fund. The effect of that will be to throw upon the next financial year the necessity of raising fresh funds to make up for lost ground. We must not pass this occasion without referring to these serious considerations.
The other day the, Chancellor of the Exchequer was challenged in connection with his Conversion Loan for what seemed to us to be a panic action. In order to make sure that he got his money, he gave away £150,000 to the brokers, and he gave away to the Government broker £18,000 as a reward for giving a way the £150,000. He told us that, although it is not always obvious, there was always some good cause for his actions. It seemed a very curious pronouncement from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and particularly from this Chancellor of the Exchequer, who is not in the habit of shaking his finger and erecting mere bogies. I think what he may have meant was that we are passing through a financial year of very great difficulty, and that what he was anxious to do was to get his money somehow before the country saw the result of the financial year. I shall be most delighted to hear a contradiction from a Treasury Minister, but, if that be so, is it not the clearest possible pronouncement from those very benches that this is not a year in which to undertake fresh schemes of expenditure?
9.0 p.m.
Let me pass from the relation of the finances of the Bill to the finances for the year to the actual burden being cast upon our national finances by the increased cost of unemployment insurance, the burden cast not only upon our national finances, but upon our national economic system—a serious matter and one deserving the most impartial consideration, free perhaps from the hotter blood of party strife. Let us look at the facts. This year the cost of insurance to the Exchequer is £12,000,000. Next year it is to be £24,500,000. If you consider the increase in this light, I think you will see its gravity. What hope have you of reduction or economy which could possibly balance that increase of £12,000,000? We all know the grim difficulty of the task of cutting down public expenditure. I appeal to everyone in the Committee with any experience of public administration, particularly Members of the Front Bench who are sharing that grim experience for the first time, as to the difficulty of finding true economy. Where is the further economy of £12,000,000 be effected. The utmost ex- tent of fresh economy that you could have hoped to secure in this year you are wiping off the slate at once by the extra expenditure you are proposing to-night— mortgaging the future.
Look at the growth of expenditure on national insurance against unemployment from the point of view of the burden upon the production of the country. In 1921, when this scheme was first begun, in the days of the Coalition Government, it was a modest expenditure of £10,000,000 only. Then came that great crisis of unemployment which meant, as all parties, all thoughtful public servants and public workers were aware, that the nation must prepare for a great effort, a great sacrifice and strenuous organisation to deal with that crisis. There then came the great crisis of unemployment, and the expenditure went leaping up. For four years before 1928, there was fair stability at round about from £40,000,000 to £44,000,000. Then, in 1929, there is a leap up of £10,000,000 in the total expense to £54,000,000. That, of course, is all contributions—State, employer and employed for England, Scotland and Wales. If we look ahead to the following year, it is impossible to estimate exactly. One can only guess, but it looks as if the total cost of unemployment insurance in contributions from State, employer and employed in England, Scotland and Wales will be somewhere between £65,000,000 and £70,000,000.
One cannot pass these figures as merely insignificant. How can one best realise their gravity? Probably by reminding oneself that our total national expenditure, cutting out the Post Office and the Road Fund, this year is round about £660,000,000, so that the cost of national insurance to the nation is a sum of the order of one-tenth of the total expenditure under the national Budget. Where does it come from? Remember that this great increase has not been accounted for by an increase in the number on the live register. It is not accounted for by any rise in the cost of living. It is a slip, slip, slip of the amount of public money, and of employers' and employed money, which is devoted to the unemployed. Is it not obvious that that burden is very great, and that it is a burden upon industry? Where does it come from? It comes from productive industry. It is disputed, but I do not think it can be disputed upon examination. This is a fact, that is quite free from any party implications or bias. The producers, the wage earners must now be looked upon as being divided at any given moment of time into those who are producing and those who are not. It is no fault of their own that some are not producing. It is their misfortune, not their fault. Let us clear away any possibility of any injurious implications in referring to them as non-producers. What we are deciding to-night is the share to be paid by production to the non-producers.
Where does it come from? First of all, from wage earners who are actually in employment. They bear their share in the form of taxes, to a minor extent. They bear it principally in the form of their contribution. No one can doubt that. If they do, they are presented with a dilemma. Either this part of the burden of the cost of insurance is borne by the employed, or they pass it on to someone else. If it is borne by them, it is in reduction of their standard of living, and that, no doubt, to a large extent is what takes place—that the unemployed are maintained at the cost of some reduction of the standard of living of those who are employed. Let us pause there to remind ourselves that you can carry that too far. What you are doing is approaching, if you have not already passed, the limiting point at which employed wage earners will say "We cannot any further reduce our standard of life for the sake of those less fortunate who are unemployed." Or else, to some extent, it may be passed on, and if it is passed on it can be passed on only in the form of higher wages, and higher wages fall as a burden upon the other partner of productive industry—upon capital. The part of the burden which is not borne by employed wage earners is borne by the other partner in industry—capital—in the form of taxes or of contributions.
Let me here refer for a moment to what I should call the great illusion of modern times, the illusion which, I think, is undoubtedly prevalent in the minds of hon. Members opposite. It is that this burden of the social services, the burden now amounting to some £320,000,000 a year, can in some way be passed on to and borne by the idle rich. It is a complete illusion on the figures. It cannot be done. How could it be done? In what form? By a tax upon luxuries? Everybody knows that luxury taxes bring in no money. As soon as you put a tax on a luxury that luxury is no longer so much consumed and you have to hunt another luxury, and so on to another. It is a will-o'-the-wisp. If you have to get this money we know that you can get it only in the way that the Labour party propose, by fresh higher taxation upon what is called unearned income. That is the idea, no doubt. That is what lies ahead of the country in this fresh burden of Socialist expenditure; fresh taxation of unearned income. Does that really transfer the taxation to the idle rich? That is the great illusion.
The right hon. Gentleman is getting very wide of the subject under discussion. I have given him a large amount of latitude.
We shall hope for a like extension when other speakers follow.
I am obliged to you, Mr. Dunnico, for your assistance in confining me in the ramifications in these arguments strictly within the rules of order. Let me be content merely to refer to the proposition, that this is an illusion, which we may have an opportunity of demonstrating when it is more strictly in order—that it is possible to transfer this burden to the idle rich. It is borne where all such burdens always must be borne, by production and by nothing else. [An HON. MEMBER: "By the workers!"] By the two partners in production, by labour and by capital. They both contribute to production. What is the result? The result is that by over-burdening production in the way that you are doing now you are depriving yourselves of the hope of getting rid of the necessity for this burden by increasing employment. You are increasing unemployment by these exaggerated burdens of expense. You are increasing unemployment by increasing the cost of production. You are increasing the cost of production by increasing wages, and by increasing the cost of capital. As a matter of fact, there is nothing more certain than that the present efforts being made by this Government are directly in conflict with each other. What is being done by one Department is negativing what is being done by another. There is the Minister of Labour and there is the Lord Privy Seal, and what the Lord Privy Seal is trying to do with one hand the Minister of Labour is undoing with the other.
What is the first necessity to create employment? The first necessity of the Lord Privy Seal in his effort to get work for the unemployed is capital. He is hunting for capital. By his schemes we know that he must, to a large extent, merely divert capital from one section to another. [An HON. MEMBER: "What was capital to Robinson Crusoe?"] He would have been in a very bad way if he had not brought capital ashore from the ship with him. He just managed to survive by having capital enough. The Lord Privy Seal has, as his first necessity for his schemes for providing employment, to find capital. What is being done by this Bill? I have argued, and it is a practical fact, that the money you are taking to-day—the £12,000,000 for insurance or the £19,000,000 for all these schemes—comes from the return upon production. It is revenue which represents so much capital. You can see that by considering what would happen if you did not have the privilege of getting this money by taxation. The only way to get it would be by borrowing money, and investing it and using the returns on it for your purpose. In order to get your £12,000,000 for Unemployed Insurance you would have to borrow £240,000,000, or to get £19,000,000, you would have to borrow nearly £500,000,000.
So that on the true national balance sheet, what you are doing by such Measures as these, mounting up to £19,000,000 of fresh charges, is that you are taking off the capital market—not destroying, but demobilising—the capital value of £500,000,000. You are doing that just at the moment when the unfortunate Lord Privy Seal is hunting about in every nook and cranny to find capital to develop industry. It is a policy, from this aspect, of sheer lunacy. You cannot reconcile the two. If you desire to have success with your policy of finding employment by developing work you have to follow the example of all other administrations, so much more binding now than at any other time, and save, pinch and scrape, to keep down the other burdens upon the income of the country, and, in particular, upon the public revenue. I have heard the Government compared to many things in the course of this Debate. Metaphors have been flying freely. What it seems to me most like, is the crew of a ship which has got into difficulties, who find themselves in a boat with a few biscuits. And what do they do? They spend all their time and all their energies in dividing up the biscuits. That is no good. It will only prolong the agony. What they ought to do is to labour at the oars and attend to the sails, in order that they may get into port.
It is years since I last spoke in this House. I listened with care to the right hon. Gentleman and I found no word of comfort from him. If there is anything which has arisen out of this discussion, it is that a very vigorous claim has been made on this side, and by some hon. Members on the other side, to maintain the doctrine of the right to live. I do not think that it has been advanced enough. I am not so anxious about the right of a loan, which we pay for, as I am for the right to live, if this House and its Members are to be lifted above the mediocrity of mere punctilious and meticulous marionettes. I listened with surprise to a very profound and puzzling dissertation on finance by a Member who ought to have known better, as he has had enough experience and practice. I want to lift the Debate from its meticulous meanness to the level at which it was left by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George). You have allowed a great deal of latitude. I do not want too much latitude, but I want my share. The right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs suggested that instead of our being parties and classified as parties the problem of unemployment was of such profound and important dimensions that the whole House ought to consider the position irrespective of party. I want to say for our own side that we are not responsible for unemployment, and I hope that the other side will not be responsible for the continuance of unemployment. There are forces and powers working entirely outside this House which determine the character of this House, determine its Measures and even sometimes determine our debates.
During the discussion one has heard frequently the question: Where is the money to come from?" A political financier has asked: "Where is the money to come from?" We answer that question by putting another question: "Where does the money go?" Half a million pounds a day are paid in interest on the National Debt. I would love to hear some financial expert on the other side tell us where that half million of money goes. I would love to hear them tell us where the dividends and surplus values from every financial undertaking go. I would love them to tell us where the money derived from our industrial plants and banks goes. Perhaps within a few years the captains of industry will have brains enough to ask us to consult with them and co-operate with them against the mere speculative financier. I have had the privilege of being connected with a joint committee on which were representative persons from both sides of industry, who attempted to tackle the problem of unemployment. Sneer or not as you may, I maintain that the Melchett-T.U.C. effort has offered a plainer statement of facts and a plainer issue for a solution than any other effort has ever offered.
When it is said that we must not impoverish the country further by these social services, I claim that poverty and starvation is as potent and as important a question to be dealt with as war. If the great spectre of war menaced us tonight, within 24 hours this House would pass a Measure to raise one thousand millions of money. For what? Much of that would go to those who seek profit and interest from usury. I am not whining about that, but one cannot forget these facts when our financiers are continually asking what will this or that social service cost. What will hungry bellies cost? What will a starving population cost? What will a C3 nation cost? What will the loss of our trade cost? We have to enter not merely into the realms of finance but into the realm of reconstruction. I honour the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs because he asked for a more generous gesture, but is a generous gesture possible from this side unless hon. and right hon. Members on the other side consent? Hon. Members opposite may not for the moment hold the purse-strings of Government but they represent the purse-strings of com- merce, ownership and wealth, and upon them is a very grave responsibility.
France has been quoted. We are told by the right hon. Member for Sevenoaks (Sir H. Young) that French bankers are not so clever as our bankers; but France put forward not such paltry measures as we do in this country. They made a demand from the bankers of five hundred millions of money to stave off ruin, to stave off starvation, to stave off unemployment, and 800 miles of devastated area were rehabilitated, new machinery was installed. Yet we are told that Franco is a country which does not possess such great financiers as this country.
The hon. Member is going rather wide of the subject before the House.
You have allowed others to go wide. I am coming to the point. I want to reply to the statement that we cannot afford to embark upon a great work of expenditure. That five hundred millions of money expended by France is now worth to France over three thousand millions. There are to-day 500 people unemployed in France. Let us realise what Germany has done. With an expenditure of two hundred and fifty millions they have practically met the position. We in this country are restricted with our come-a-day, go-a-day, God-send-Sunday methods. Even with our great financiers and our great captains of industry we really make no move. This House, with its great traditions, could impose upon the country a solution of the unemployment problem. I am not wanting doles. No worker wants doles. We repudiate the dole. We repudiate charity in every possible sense. Talk about recovering trade! Here is an example. An alpine range of waters, harnessing seven millions of horse power, representing two hundred million man power and extending four hundred miles.
The hon. Member is out of order. He is travelling rather wide of the question.
If you will forgive me as you did others, I shall be in order. I am anxious to indicate from my own position that obsolete methods and marionette show will end nowhere. I want the three parties, or however many main parties there may be here, to get together and, instead of debating dialetical nothingness, the House might utilise its talents and its time to greater ad vantage. The machinery of this House is as obsolete as our industrial machinery. I am very sorry to have intruded upon the patience of the House, and if I had the opportunity of replying to a lot of the things we have heard I should say that I want a broader, a greater view and a sounder financial view taken. All our old economic theories are gone by the board. You cannot allow a million and a quarter people to starve and another million to starve with them, or allow the country to become a C3 nation. We want vigour and virility, and I pray this House to help in every possible scientific method to readjust the whole of our industrial organisation on such a plan and with such a measure of sense and experience that, instead of asking for doles, we shall be rid of this great unemployment problem, which is such a curse. Starvation, want and famine are worse than war. If you can find money for war then you can find the money to nurse children, to resuscitate our nation and to resuscitate trade, so that the country may be better and happier because of the brains which have been put into its recovery.
I am sure that every Member in every part of the House wishes to abolish poverty and to keep subsistence at the highest possible level for every individual. If we on this side from time to time take exception to the methods employed by His Majesty's Government to find those means, I am sure hon. Members opposite will not think that it is through any lack of sympathy for the insured persons that we sometimes differ from them on this Bill. I may be one of those obsolete persons to whom the hon. Member has referred. He told the Committee that the Government of the day, no matter what complexion, should come down to this House and raise a loan of £1,000,000,000 if necessary. The people who would suffer most under such a scheme would not be the capitalists but the insured persons. This country is suffering to-day because during the long periods of the War and the early post-War period we spent more borrowed money than any nation in the world. It is because this nation has spent such large sums of borrowed money in the past that we are forced to-night to be discussing the means of assisting unemployed persons.
We could borrow money to-morrow for war.
I quite admit that we could borrow money to-morrow for war and that we could borrow money to-morrow for insured persons. The only difference between us is as to whether it is in the best interests of the insured persons that we should carry on the finance by borrowing money. I am one of those who voted with extreme reluctance on the Second Reading of this Bill. That was not because I have not as much sympathy with insured persons as any Member opposite, but because I had doubts whether the scheme outlined by the Government was the best method of dealing with the problems before the House. Before making one or two observations on the Financial Resolution I should like to join in uttering a protest against the absence from the Treasury Bench of any representative of the Treasury. Without any disrespect for the right hon. Gentleman it is not unusual when large sums of public money are being spent that the representative of the Treasury should be present.
For two and a quarter hours there was not a single Member of the Liberal party on your benches.
Whether that may be so or not, I am sure the hon. Member will agree that the responsibility for this money rests on the shoulders of Ministers, and it is in keeping with the general custom of this House that the representative of the Treasury should be continually present when large sums of public money are being spent. If my memory serves me correctly I well recollect that during the last Parliament Members on the opposite side sometimes joined with me in protesting against the representatives of the Treasury not being present.
On a point of Order. Why is not the Financial Secretary to the Treasury here? It is very unusual when a large amount of money is being spent. Cannot we have the Financial Secretary present?
That is not a point of Order.
I am anxious to address myself—[ Interruption. ]
I really cannot hear the hon. Gentleman who is addressing the Committee because of the conversation which is going on.
I am anxious to address myself to two specific points which this Financial Resolution raises. The first is that one finds from the White Paper issued in connection with the Unemployment Fund—and the right hon. Lady told the Committee—that during the next 12 months the Government are going to review the whole question of Unemployment Insurance. Will they at the same time review the total cost of the Unemployment Insurance so far as the administrative charges are concerned? I think it will be rather a surprise to the House to realise this one simple fact: When an insured person receives 17s. a week it costs the Fund 2s. 6d. to hand it to him. That is the cost of administration. The total facts are these—I am speaking from Command Paper No. 28: The total amount paid in benefit for the year ended 31st March, 1928, was £36,500,000, and the administrative expenses were £4,900,000. A simple calculation, therefore, shows that wherever 7s. is paid in benefit, it has cost the insured person 1s. to receive it. That comes from the pockets of the insured persons. If this sum were not spent in this way either larger benefits could be given to the insured person or there would be less strain on the fund of the National Exchequer.
Is there any insurance company which gives better terms?
May I ask hon. Members to address me and not to raise questions across the Floor of the House.
There is no compulsory insurance company in this country. The State employs compulsion and collects the money freely, but when the State, after having collected the money, distributes it to the insured person, the cost to the insured person is 2s. 6d. on every 17s. received. I think a mere statement of that remarkable fact, which can be found in the Insurance Fund accounts, is ample evidence that if the Ministry of Labour will address themselves to that particular point there is a large sum of public money or large sums from the Insurance Fund which could be distributed in benefits to the insured person or, on the other hand, which need not leave the National Exchequer.
My second point is a simple one. I have great doubts whether the money being spent under this Bill is in the interests of the insured persons. The right hon. Lady undoubtedly made out a good case for every class of benefit she is distributing. It is always an easy thing to make out a case for every benefit to every individual in the country, but as she was making out her case for the Bill I thought of the insured persons who are working and finding the money for this scheme. The Government would have been much better advised, in the interests of the insured persons, not to find this money for the benefit of insured persons but rather to have set it aside for the benefit of the country as a whole, and by that means find work for those who are out of work. It is a wrong principle for the Government to adopt, when they have such large numbers out of work, to come to this House, as they have month after month, and ask for public money for particular needs. I would rather see them directing their attention to a larger issue, doing some constructive work and find work for our people. As one who has listened to the right hon. Lady to-night I must say that there does not seem to have been a single constructive idea in the Government's mind in order to find work for our people. Personally, I think the Lord Privy Seal could have made much better use of the money which this Financial Resolution will vote than the right hon. Lady in giving benefits to these favoured persons.
Our national credit is all important, and I am reminded of the words of the Chancellor of the Exchequer when speaking at the Guildhall on the 10th July, 1924, when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer. He said: stood alone against the serried ranks of the finance ministers of Europe. He stood alone against them in the interests of Great Britain.
I really must call the hon. Member's attention to the fact that his speech is going a long way from the Financial Resolution, and if I allow him to proceed any hon. Member is quite in order in replying to him.
I have no desire to get round your ruling. I was only addressing myself to this simple fact, that under this Resolution £12,000,000 of public money is being found for a particular class, and I was addressing an appeal to the Chancellor of the Exchequer and reminding him of his attitude, hoping that in the coming months he might take up the same stand against the left wing of his own party. I am afraid that the common policy of His Majesty's Government may lead this country further astray. I hope that our national credit, whereby we have been forced to borrow at 5 per cent. for 15 years, may improve, and that in the course of events which the Government will announce from time to time in this House they will first think of national credit before individual interests.
I should like to devote myself to one or two of the points which have been brought by hon. Members opposite against this Financial Resolution. The main argument has been that it will increase the taxation of the country. Of course it will; we were sent here to increase, taxation. Hon. Members opposite have taunted us with not implementing our Election pledges. If there was one Election pledge which we gave more definitely, more specifically and more frequently, than any other, it was that we were going to use the instrument of taxation as a means of social reform; that we were going to use the instrument of taxation in order to secure a more equitable distribution of national dividends; that we were going to take from the rich and give to the poor. It has been argued by hon. Members opposite that by increasing taxation we are going to throw fresh burdens on industry. I should like them to state specifically wherein an increase in taxation will impose fresh burdens on industry. The increase in taxation which will be neces- sary to finance this Bill will be an increase in the higher limits of Income Tax and an increase of the Super-tax, and in what way does an increase in the higher limits of Income Tax or Super-tax throw fresh burdens on industry? Does an increase in Income Tax or Super-tax increase costs in industry?
Income Tax and Super-tax are not levied until the income appears as the result of industry, and, therefore, Income Tax and Super-tax cannot be an element in the costs of industry. Hon. Members opposite argue that an increase in Income Tax and Super-tax will raise prices. Manufacturers cannot increase prices just how and when they like. Either a manufacturer is a monopolist or else he is manufacturing in competition with others. If he is a monopolist he has already fixed a monopoly price for the article he is selling which will give him the greatest net profit, and because you are going to increase Income Tax or Super-tax is he going to increase that price and so lessen the effective demand for his commodity in the market, reduce his sales, and have less profit than before? It is not reasonable to assume that he will take that course. If, on the other hand, a manufacturer is in competition with other manufacturers, then the price of the article is fixed by the cost of production of the marginal firms, and since the profit does not enter into the actual cost of production in marginal firms an increase of Income Tax or Super-tax cannot affect price. Therefore, it can be safely assumed that an increase of Income Tax and Super-tax will not affect prices, and cannot enter as an element into costs.
Will hon. Members opposite argue that if we increase taxation in order to implement the financial provisions of this Bill there is going to be such a decrease in the savings of this country that fresh capital will no longer be available to increase existing industrial enterprises or finance new enterprises? It was said by Mr. Reginald McKenna last year that the banks of issue in London had on deposit £130,000,000, an amount equal to that of the boom year of 1920, and, owing to the rise in the price of money, that money was 60 per cent. more valuable than in 1920. For the past eight years, even during the period of depression, we have been saving annually £500,000,000, and I do not think that the extra taxation imposed under this Measure would very considerably encroach on annual savings of that amount. It has been pointed out in that interesting document, the Liberal Industrial Report, that out of the £500,000,000 saved annually, £195,000,000 is saved by joint stock companies putting part of their profits to reserve. An increase in Super-tax would rather encourage the formation of capital in that direction, because such sums put to reserve are only subject to the standard rate of the tax and are not subject to increased Super-tax. There is not much danger that we shall entrench so much upon savings in this country, by increased taxation, as not to have fresh capital available for extending existing enterprises or starting new ones.
If an increase in the higher limits of Income Tax or of Super-tax does not raise costs, does not raise prices, and does not unduly diminish savings, it cannot be argued that such taxation is going to be a burden on industry. The financial provisions of this Bill and the use which is going to be made of them, so far from imposing a burden on industry, are going to be an incentive to industry and will lead to lessened unemployment. The Bill is going to increase the purchasing power of a number of the unemployed—only by a slight amount it is true, but still it is going to increase it—and that extra purchasing power will be spent, in the main, upon ultimate consumable commodities, such as clothes, shoes, furniture and things of that kind. In so far as that increased purchasing power, given to the unemployed, means an increase in the effective demand for the products of home manufacture, it is. going to be a stimulus to home manufacture. In so far as it means an increase in the demand for things which are imported, like tea, coffee, sugar, cocoa and so on, it is going to be a stimulus to imports; and, since imports must be paid for in the long run by exports, it is going to be a stimulus to the export trade. Therefore, the transfer of purchasing power to the unemployed by means of these financial provisions is going to be a direct stimulus to employment. It will not only be a benefit to the unemployed, but will lessen the volume of unemployment.
Had that purchasing power remained in the pockets of the higher limit Income Tax payers or Super-tax payers, it would not necessarily have given the same volume of employment. It would not have been spent upon ultimate consumable commodities, because the demand for those commodities would have been satiated before those limits of Income Tax or Super-tax had been reached. The higher limit Income Tax payer or Super-tax payers might have spent it in many ways, which would not have given any great volume of employment, for example upon travel abroad or upon personal service—upon engaging grooms, chauffeurs, valets, butlers and people of that kind, who, in the economic sense of the word, are unemployed. They might have spent it in speculative investment on the Stock Exchange, forcing up the price of existing shares, but giving employment to nobody. They might have spent it on speculation in fraudulent companies of the Hatry type, which give employment to nobody except to those who are already far too remuneratively employed.
The financial provisions of the Bill, so far from being a drag upon industry and a burden upon industry, are calculated to be a stimulus to industry which will take it past the dead point of depression, and put it on the road to trade revival. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not double it?"] I do not think we have even yet reached the limit of taxation as far as Super-tax payers are concerned, and I hope that in subsequent Financial Resolutions we shall still further increase taxation upon the very wealthy in this country. This Bill is by no means a perfect Measure, but that must be said of all Measures introduced into this House before the coming of the millennium. When the millennium does come, no doubt the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Edgbaston (Mr. Chamberlain) and the right hon. Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood) will oppose it with all the resources of their great dialectical skill on the ground that its benefits are not dispensed in accordance with a means test. But although this Measure is not perfect; although there is much in it which we would like to see improved as it goes through the Committee stage, I shall support it, and more particularly the Financial Resolution, on the ground that it affects a transfer of purchasing power from the rich to the poor, and I believe it is along the line of effecting such a transfer that we are going to find the surest and most effective means of dealing with this great problem of unemployment.
I have listened to this Debate for some time with great amazement at the amount of confusion of thought in financial matters displayed by hon. and right hon. Members opposite. We have heard advocated high taxation as a means of national economy. We have heard advocated enormous borrowing as a means of solving the problem of a very nearly bankrupt nation. More strange than any of these, we have heard from the right hon. Lady the Minister the extraordinary proposition that in order to solve the problem of a bankrupt insurance Fund, she does not propose to increase contributions, nor to reduce benefits, but to increase the contribution of the State. I wonder what hon. Members think the State is. Do they imagine it as some strange body, suspended between heaven and earth like Mohamed's coffin, and dropping bags of gold into the hands of the Chancellor of the Exchequer whenever he needs them? I wish they could realise this very simple proposition—that the State consists of the ordinary men and women in this country. When hon. Members say that the State is going to pay for something, for which employers and employed are supposed to be unable to pay, they forget that it is the employer and the employed who contribute all, directly or indirectly, and find all the money necessary for these various schemes.
We have already spent very large sums of money on social services. I do not regret the spending of that money, providing it does some good to the people, but it is interesting at this stage to get some small picture—this evening we are going to pass a Financial Resolution which will mean the spending of a further sum, not a large sum—to realise to what we are already committed and how far we have already increased our expenditure. If you take the cost of the social services of this country in 1891, it was approximately £22,500,000; in 1928 the cost was £366,000,000. That is a figure upon which we can all reflect with considerable care, however enthusiastic we are about spending money upon social services, even the hon. Member for Silver-town (Mr. J. Jones), because it is a matter of no small importance. That large total sum has been arrived at by continual additions of small sums such as that contained in this Resolution. Per head of population, the figure has gone up from 14s. in 1891 to £8 6s. in 1928, and of that the largest amounts have been spent on education, an increase from £11,500,000 to £97,000,000; on the Poor Law, from £9,000,000 to £45,000,000; and on housing, from £250,000 to £27,000,000.
What are the sources from which this money has been derived? They are the State, £177,000,000: local authorities, £89,000,000; and the other contributors, £112,500,000. Hon. Members opposite imagine these enormous figures can always be found by taxing the rich, but they have no real conception of the true position of national finance. In the first place, the rich have not got all that amount of money, and in the second place, if they had, hon. Members opposite would never have the wit to find it. If you take the largest increases over 1911 in expenditure on social services, you will find that unemployment insurance has increased from 1911 to 1928 by £43,000,000, health insurance by £39,000,000, widows' pensions by £24,000,000, old age pensions by £26,000,000, education by £61,000,000, housing by £26,000,000, and Poor Law by £30,000,000. This expenditure cannot go on indefinitely without some check, and we have had warnings, not alone from hon. Members on this side, but from right hon. Members who occupy important positions on the Treasury Bench. In fact, the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself, speaking on the 28th November, 1927, said:
By one who knows!
10.0 p.m.
That is a policy which has been adopted by many people in different stations of life, and at different times; and, of course, it is a very simple matter to bandy words about in this Chamber, and it is a very simple matter for those who think it is their business only to arouse emotions to make remarks of that kind to those whose business they think it is to arouse jobs. There are some who think it is quite enough to arouse the emotions of the populace in order to solve the economic problem, but there are some of those engaged in industry who believe It is their duty to try and find work for the unemployed. To return to the immediate question of the Financial Resolution, I would say that the Bill which is based upon this Resolution is full of provision for endless and uncontrollable contraventions and exceptions. Its cost cannot be properly estimated, and the right hon. Lady the Minister of Labour has herself admitted this evening that she does not know what it will cost. The very notable absence of any financial Minister from the Treasury Bench makes that all the more clear. [An HON. MEMBER: "Where are they?"] They do not want to come before us to try and explain, in those clear and lucid terms which we are entitled to expect from the Front Bench of any Government dealing with financial matters, the Actuary's Report upon which the Bill is based. On page 5 of that Report the Actuary says: those heavy and intense bombardments which we have witnessed this afternoon upon the unfortunate heads of responsible Ministers trying to carry the Bill through the House.
While the principle of insurance is vitiated in this way, provision is being made for a type of unemployment that is almost non-existent and will shortly cease to exist altogether. Juvenile unemployment insurance is being brought in, in spite of the fact that figures were submitted to the Shaftesbury Committee which showed that with a school leaving age of 14-plus in 1931 there will be a shortage of juveniles in employment of 63,000, and with a school leaving age of 15 in 1929 there will be a shortage of 373,000 and in 1934 a shortage of 762,000. The only reason why the juveniles have been brought into the Bill in this way is in order to bolster up the Fund a little more and to deprive them of the £184,000 a year, which they will have to pay because they will not be out of employment. The employers will pay another £216,000, and the State a further £200,000. As a matter of fact, all this will be extremely unfair upon these new entrants, because, under the provisions of the Act as they exist to-day, if I am not wrong, they may go on contributing for 20 years, and at the end of that time, if they have not made 30 contributions in two years, they will be debarred from receiving any benefit whatever. You are only bringing them in some years sooner in order to provide the Fund with a little extra cash.
Let us compare the position of this country in this matter with the position of other countries, because, when all is said and done, there is at present in this country only one source of money. [HON. MEMBERS: "Imperial Chemical Industries!"] That source, as a matter of fact, is not limited, as some right hon. and hon. Members in their remarkable ignorance seem to imagine, to one industry; this country happens to have many of which they are apparently quite unaware. As a matter of fact, as hon. Members well know, particularly those who are representatives of trade unions and who have worked at times very closely with employers of different sorts, industry is the only source from which this money can be found; industry is the only source from which benefits for the unemployed can come. On the other hand, in order that there should be any money in industry, industry has to compete with foreign countries.
Let us see what overhead charges, by way of social insurance, our competitors have. In Belgium, in the United States of America, and in Czechoslovakia there are no systems of any kind. In France, there is a system of contributory old age pensions. In Germany, there is a full system of every kind of social insurance —widows' pensions, old age pensions, unemployment insurance, and national health insurance; but in that country it is insurance and not poor law relief. It is an insurance fund which is entirely solvent, because it insists on balancing its contributions with its benefits, as any proper insurance fund should.
I think that at the present moment we are drifting into a condition which eventually can only lead to disaster. [ Interruption. ] We are drifting into a condition in which we all in this House think that it is better to take money away from the ordinary citizen, put it into the hands of some civil servants,. and then give it back to the citizen again. What is the result? The result is that, whereas the citizen puts in £l, he gets back 17s. 6d. or 16s. 6d. Why do you not leave the £1 with the citizen and let him deal with it as he likes. [ Interruption. ] It is all based on the fallacy that the only people in this country who are taxed are the rich, and that the poor escape without taxation. That is the great and tragic fallacy in the whole of the financial conceptions of hon. Members opposite, which, sooner or later, if they obtain the control of the finances of England, will bring this country into disaster.
It has been said by the Minister of Labour that, broadly speaking, whether a nation can afford a thing or not depends upon how much it wants it. [HON. MEMBERS: "The Minister of Health!"] It was the Minister of Health who said it. I beg the Minister of Labour's pardon. She is capable, and has been guilty, of many remarks, but none to my knowledge quite so strange as that. If that were adopted as a method of finance by any individual inside or outside this House, he would eventually find himself in the bankruptcy court, and everyone knows it perfectly well. What, is the real difference in transferring that conception to a nation as a whole, except that it is more dangerous? Yet a responsible Minister gets up at the Box and makes such a statement. If that were the financial policy adopted by the present Government, this country, instead of becoming the financial centre of the world, would become the laughing stock of the world. [ Interruption. ]
It is a most remarkable thing with what levity this subject has been approached. The Minister of Labour has said that it would do no harm for employers of juvenile labour to pay a little more. That is quite true; they could undoubtedly afford to pay a little more; but I would like to remind the Committee that this "little more" has grown, in 30 years, by a sum of £350,000,000 and it is these "little more's" which will sooner or later bring hon. Members opposite down to reality. There is nothing in the world more difficult than to make good laws. Most of the laws that have been passed by this House are not good laws, but bad laws. [ Interruption. ] If you examine legislation as far as it goes back in the history of man, you will find that the good laws which have been made are very few. I do not, for myself, profess—and I am sure that on this matter I speak for all hon. Members on this side of the House—that we can make nothing but good laws; but I do suggest that to the making of good laws you have to apply qualities other than those which are possessed by hon. Members opposite. [ Interruption. ] It is not in the spirit of sentimentality, acrimony, and bombast that good legislation is made, but, unfortunately, those are the only qualities which the Government and its supporters seem to be capable of bringing to the solution of these questions.
This is a question of economics from start to finish, and it has been dealt with throughout by this House as a question of emotion. Emotion and economics have not much to do with each other. Economics are forces which, like the great gale which has raged in the South of England within the last few days, will sweep hon. Members away. [HON. MEMBERS: "They will sweep you away."] They will sweep us away; they will sweep away great nations, if they do not understand them, and do not put in charge of their affairs men who are capable of the first conception of good economics. They are not little streams, but great floods which can be let loose. The emotions will never save you. All the emotions of the autocrats of Moscow never saved the population from starving.
On a point of Order. Would it not be possible for this Debate to be conducted with more decency?
This Bill is wrong from first to last, and nobody knows it better than the Minister herself. It is a Bill which undermines, and is calculated to destroy, the whole principle of insurance. It is really a method of enabling her to escape from the most unfortunate pledges in which she was involved at the time of the election, without going as far as hon. Members opposite below the Gangway would like her to go. It is really a way out; it is a stop-gap Measure; but it destroys the fundamental principles of insurance, and it attempts to saddle industrial insurance with the burden of the Poor Law. If the right hon. Lady wants to introduce a Poor Law Measure let her do so, and, if it is a good Measure, I, for one, will be glad to support it. If she wants to deal with industrial insurance—
I think that the hon. Gentleman was in the House when I called attention to the fact that a good many of the speakers were transgressing in departing from the terms of the Resolution. We have decided that the Bill should be read a Second time, and we are now dealing with the Money Resolution. A good many Members wish to speak on the Money Resolution, and therefore the hon. Member should stick closer to it.
Is not the hon. Member dealing with the financial aspect of this Bill?
I am sorry if I have transgressed in any way the strict interpretation of your Ruling on this matter, and I will endeavour in the few remarks that remain to be made, to stick closer to the question. There is one thing further that I should like to say, and that is a measure of praise for one of the provisions of this Bill. There is a provi- sion which enables workmen who go abroad to receive unemployment benefit, even when they return after a period of two years. That is a most admirable—
Let me again point out that we are not discussing the Bill. If the hon. Gentleman says that that is a matter that comes within the Money Resolution, that would be in order.
Surely Para graph ( a, ii) of the Money Resolution deals specifically with that point.
The points raised must deal with the Money Resolution. The mere fact of praising one provision of the Bill against another is not dealing with the Money Resolution.
May I call your attention to the fact that Paragraph ( a, ii) of the Money Resolution says:
"in respect of such persons employed out-side the United Kingdom as may by regulations made in pursuance of the said Act be required to be treated as employed persons within the meaning of the Unemployment Insurance Acts."
Surely that is the very point with which the hon. Member is dealing.
It seems somewhat strange that an non. Member should oppose the Resolution and then start to praise a Clause in the Bill.
Surely it is perfectly possible in the course of a speech on the Money Resolution to commend as part of one's observations a particular part of the Resolution, and, on the other hand, condemn other portions of the Money Resolution.
What I wished to remark about that particular Clause was that it was one further Clause for which an indeterminate sum of money was being voted. No limited amount, so far as I am aware, is provided for this expenditure, but in this case, in my view, the object is so extremely important, and the amount of money is not likely ever to amount to a very large sum, that it is one of the few cases where the excuse can really be found for bringing forward a Resolution of this kind in which the total sum of money cannot be properly estimated. It is a matter of great surprise to the House and to the country that a Bill of this kind, which will undoubtedly tend to increase unemployment, has not been more vigorously opposed by Members opposite who represent trade unions. I regret that this Resolution, based upon a Bill which has this afternoon received its Second Reading, should ever come into Committee. I would like to have seen it rejected earlier in the day, so that the country and the world at large would know that in this House there is a body of sane and sensible men, not a body of demagogues who do not know what they are about but who are merely carried away by the enthusiasm of their vicarious benevolence.
Some of us on these benches do not pretend to have had the enormous opportunities which the hon. Member for East Toxteth (Mr. Mond) has possessed. We have not three or four secretaries to prepare our speeches for us, and therefore we have to speak from the plenitude of our ignorance. The more I listened to the hon. Member the less I learned. He has wandered from Dan to Beersheba and has never come down to brass tacks. We are discussing the present Unemployment Insurance Bill.
That is a mistake which I have just corrected. We are discussing the Money Resolution.
As I have so little money I can talk upon the Money Resolution. I apologise for following the bad example set by those who have been talking about the Bill itself. The Money Resolution contains proposals for increasing benefits, that is, to pay those who are out of employment and who come within the original Act a little bit more to keep them from hunger, and according to hon. Members opposite it is too much. They could not keep a dog on the money allowed for a boy or girl under this Act. When they send their dogs to the Dogs' Home at Battersea, they pay 14s. a week, and no questions asked. When it is proposed that the working man's child should have 5s. per week, they seem to think the revolution has arrived, and that civilisation is coming to an end. Then it is said that a working man's wife can live on less than 10s. a week, and that we are throwing money away. What are we doing with other people's wives? If you were to offer them 10s. a week to live upon, they would call you names such as this House would not like me to repeat.
The whole cost of the Bill, of all the financial benefits to be given to unemployed workers, comes to, at the most, in a period of seven years, £300,000,000. [ Interruption. ] Am I not right? If I am wrong, I will accept it. I hope it is more. I will put it down at £700,000,000. I will put it any amount you like, but it is less than we paid 86,000 people in this country last year. For doing nothing and for doing it very well, we paid them £560,000,000. Those are the people whom you support in this House, and if there are any of that sort on this side of the House, they will soon get out of it. I wish I were Chancelor of the Exchequer. I would get the money, because I know where it is. I would deal with matters from a working-class point of view, and the Members of the party opposite would be very glad to pay £1 a week for a man and 10s. a week for his children. We have just listened to a lecture from the hon. Member for East Toxteth (Mr. Mond), who knows more about being out of work than I do. I have walked the streets of this great city looking for employment before we had an Unemployment Insurance Act. Hon. Members opposite were born with silver spoons in their mouths, but we were born with picks and shovels in our hands.
We are continually being told that under this Measure people will be getting something for nothing, but the Members of the party opposite have been getting something for nothing all their lives. The lecture which has been given to us by the hon. Member for East Toxteth is an insult to our intelligence. Of course, the hon. Member has not insulted us directly, but he has done so indirectly. On this side of the House we are as honest and clean in our dealings as any hon. Member of the class to which the hon. Member for East Toxteth belongs. We hear a good deal of talk about peace in industry, and when we ask for an extra 2s., 5s. or 10s. for the workers, we are told that we are living upon what Members of the party opposite have produced. Practically, they say we ought not to have it and we ought to be in the workhouse.
The party opposite have produced the present system of industry, and the unemployed are a product of that system. Employers do not employ men because they love them; they employ them for profit, and if there is no profit then there is no work and the workers are thrown, upon the scrap-heap as soon as profit cannot be produced. Talk about rationalising industry. The hon. Member who put forward that view will be able to rationalise himself before very long. What we are asking in this Bill is not a solution of the unemployment problem. The Money Resolution is simply providing machinery to keep some of our people from starving. The Unemployment Insurance Bill originally was introduced, not to solve the problem of unemployment, but to insure against revolution. The workers were demanding more than they had previously had. Here we are giving a little bit of sugar for the bird. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) was the father of this scheme, and now he is beginning to disown his own children. He is becoming a stepfather or a bad uncle. He objects to certain parts of the scheme in the matter of its financial provisions, because they do not form part of his original proposal.
I do not believe in unemployment insurance at all; I believe it is the duty of the nation. I come from the district which sent the first independent Labour man to this House. In 1892 we sent Keir Hardie here, and what did he stand for? He stood for the principle of work or maintenance. There was no question then about insurance; it was a national responsibility. We are all members of the same family. It seems peculiar to me that the only time when we count for anything is when the nation is at war with some other nation. Then we can put the nation in pawn; then we can pile up the National Debt; then we can call on everybody—including the lame, the halt and the blind—to render service. When we have got peace, when the war drums have stopped playing, when the battle flags are furled, then, when we ask for some amelioration—not a solution, but an amelioration—of the situation, we are told that the nation cannot afford it; but it can afford to keep these people who talk to us like this from reams of notepaper which they have prepared somewhere.
We are going into the Lobby to support this Money Resolution because we do not believe it is enough; it is as much as we can get. My hero is Oliver Twist. I will take as much as I can get, and still keep on asking for more, until the people who are responsible for the present industrial system alter their methods and recognise that we should be a great co-operative society, consisting, not of two classes, but of one whole, and determined to use the material of this country for the benefit of all its citizens. When we can do that, there will be no need to give people 2s. or 3s. a week; all the men, women and children in the country will take their proper place, working together for the common good.
In addition to my other crimes, I am a trade union official, and I have spent a lot of time meeting hon. Members opposite. They do not like to see me sometimes; the less they see of me the better they like me, and I can return the compliment in some respects. Generally, when we meet them, we go to ask for something, but sometimes they want to take something from us, and we meet them more often for the latter purpose than for the former. In this case we are asking that the people who fall by the roadside shall not go down unwept, un-honoured and unsung. It is not merely a matter of a few shillings a week; it is a matter of keeping them fit for the time when they may be called upon. I would ask hon. Members to come down with me to-morrow morning to the Albert Dock, Victoria Dock, or King George V Dock, and see the thousands of men mustering for the eight o'clock call, and again for the 12 o'clock call—and more men turned away than are taken on. Then they go back to the Employment Exchange to sign on there. What are they? You talk about the slaves of Greece, Rome and Egypt. As a matter of fact, the workman to-day is in a worse position than the slave was; nobody owns him.
I would like to take some hon. Members opposite, who cheered the sentiments expressed by the hon. Member who last spoke, down to my Division to see the conditions there; and they can go into the industrial establishments of Great Britain and see the same thing. And then they come here and say we are paying out too much—in order to save this country from degradation. As a matter of fact, the money you are going to pay to the unemployed men and women, boys and girls in this country, is the best insurance that you have ever had. because you are giving them some indication that the country is taking notice of their troubles. Turn us down and say you are not prepared to do it. I wish you had the pluck to say you would not. You could scrap all your industrial insurance machinery and throw us back upon our own resources. Then we should arouse the workers to a sense of the real situation. Instead of speeches of the kind we have just heard we should have a different kind of speeches. We should have hon. Members opposite asking us for God's sake to help them and save them. Much as this Resolution falls short of what we should like to see, we are going to back it right through to the bitter end in the hope that eventually, by common consent, the problem of unemployment will be really tackled and we shall attack the basis of the system which creates unemployment.
I hope the Committee will not expect me to follow the hon. Member in his remarks about the dogs' home and other things of that kind. It always seems to me, when I hear him speaking, that he must have been particularly unfortunate in his employer or the employers he knows, and I cannot help also thinking sometimes that his employer must have been particularly unfortunate in his workman. I want to raise some points on the financial aspects of the Resolution. This is the only occasion we have of raising the whole of the financial aspects of the Bill. It seems to me that many of the points that we voted against on the Second Reading are bound up with the Financial Resolution. The Minister of Labour went through the various parts of the Resolution and explained how they were bound up with the Bill itself. She made an extremely good speech, but I do not think it much affected the feeling on this side of the House, because, in our opinion, the whole of the Bill and the Resolution is fundamentally wrong. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sevenoaks (Sir H. Young) made a very good point when he said the Minister of Labour was deluding herself when she imagined that by a Resolution of this kind she was balancing the Bill. She is doing nothing of the kind. It seems to be the fate of the House to have an Unemployment Insurance Bill at least every two years. The present Gov- ernment has not been in very long and we have before us Unemployment Insurance Bill No. 2. In the last Parliament I was one of those whose job it was to be seen and not heard, and in the capacity of a Parliamentary Private Secretary I had a certain opportunity of gaining knowledge of the various ideas that were brought before the House and I came to certain very definite conclusions, all of which are in fundamental opposition to this Resolution.
The first was that unemployment insurance must of necessity be kept strictly to its proper function, which is that of an insurance scheme. Under no circumstances whatever must it be allowed to deteriorate into a relief scheme for the able-bodied poor. That is why we oppose the part of the financial Resolution which carries on the transition period. I was profoundly disappointed when the Bill appeared that the Minister did not grapple with this problem straight away. Again and again, when the party opposite were in opposition, they said that this question of relief for the able-bodied poor must be divorced from Unemployment Insurance. They said that in opposition, and we hoped that when they became the Government they would deal with the position. Again and again we have had resolutions sent by boards of guardians all over the country saying that the able-bodied poor should not go on the Poor Law relief. In that I think we are all agreed. Yet by carrying on the transition period long after the original Bill allowed for such a period to come into operation they are still carrying on the same vicious system.
It is all very well for the right hon. Lady the Minister of Labour to say that this is only a temporary Bill and that later on a bigger Bill will be brought in. In those circumstances it really does not seem worth while to bring in a Bill or a Financial Resolution, because all that would be required would be to carry on the Number 1 Bill. That was the first of the conclusions to which I came. The second was, that the rights of those people who are in work and are paying the contribution—and they are the vast majority of the people in the Unemployment Insurance scheme itself—must be safeguarded by seeing that people did not come on to Unemployment Insurance who are not genuinely unemployed and unable to get work. For that reason I look with some misgiving at Clause 4 of the Bill. I am dealing with this only because there is a provision in the Financial Resolution dealing with this matter, on which the whole structure of the Bill depends. This "genuinely seeking work" Clause, as is shown by the Financial Resolution and by the actuaries' report, is to cost a certain amount of money. Nobody knows how much that sum of money is to be, but we do know that it will be considerable.
It is obvious from the fact that a considerable sum of money has been contemplated, that there is going to be some relaxation of what is known as the "genuinely seeking work" condition of unemployment. Therefore, if you are going to do that in a genuine Unemployment Insurance scheme you will be harming the people who are paying contributions and thereby doing harm to the insurance part of the scheme, while you may be backing up that part which I call the relief scheme for the able-bodied poor. The third conclusion to which I come, and to which there are two references in the Financial Resolution, is that juveniles, young boys and girls, should be discouraged in every possible way from getting mixed up in any way at all with unemployment benefit. I think—and what I say is borne out by the Blanesburgh Report—that it is a great pity that juveniles are brought in and are to be mixed up with the unemployment benefit. There is no wonder that outside, after this Bill was brought in, the whole of the other Clauses in the Bill were lost sight of by people, who said: "What are you going to do about this Bill which gives doles to kids?" That is what we hear from all sides now, and I think that hon. Members opposite will be hearing it too. My last conclusion was that the sooner we realise that the most important part of the Employment Exchange is the placing side, the better it will be for everybody in this country. There is nothing whatever about that side in the Bill, or in the financial provisions made for the Bill. While we were in office we took a considerable amount of trouble about the placing side. We tried to put in charge of that side officers of outstanding ability, and we did our very best to make that side more popular than it is at the present time. At the present time for a vast number of people the Employment Exchange simply means a place where you go to draw "benefit." That is a bad thing, and I hope that the Minister will do her best to see that the placing side is given greater prominence, and that less prominence is given, as is given in this Bill, to the purely benefit side.
One further point, which has been stressed by several speakers, is worthy of attention, and that is that the enormous expenditure which is foreshadowed by the Resolution will not do good but harm to the cause of the unemployed. During the General Election there was a sort of competition between the Socialist party and the Liberals as to which could promise the greatest expenditure for the cure of unemployment, and the party opposite won. We said definitely that we considered that the more national expenditure there was on State-aided works and expense of the kind foreshadowed in this Financial Resolution, the worse it would be for the unemployed. What is happening now is proving that to be so. All the Bills that have been brought in by the Government, including the Bills brought in by the Lord Privy Seal, foreshadow enormous expenditure of money, and while these Bills have been brought forward unemployment has been increasing daily until to-day it is 150,000 more than when the Government came into office.
We say that the whole outlook of the Minister is wrong. When she moved the Second Reading of the Bill she apologised, probably to the hon. Members behind her, because she had not been able to get more money from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. She said: "I am sorry that I have only got £2,000,000 extra, but I think I have done the best I could with it." The more she expends in this way the worse it will be for the unemployed. We are all agreed that we want to bring the numbers of the unemployed down far more than we are concerned with the granting of relief to those people who are unemployed. The Lord Privy Seal comes here every now and again and he is always calling for more capital. We see him, as it were, swimming about and gasping for capital.
On a point of Order Is it in order for the hon. and gallant Member to discuss the proposals of the Lord Privy Seal?
I have tried repeatedly to-night to bring the Committee back to the Resolution before us. I am sorry that there have been so many Second Reading speeches instead of dealing with the terms of the Resolution. I would ask the hon. and gallant Member to try to keep to the Resolution.
I apologise, and I accept your ruling, but I would point out that this Financial Resolution afford3 the only occasion on which we can discuss whether or not this enormous national expenditure is or is not a good thing for the unemployed.
That may be so, but that has nothing to do with the schemes of the Lord Privy Seal.
I was saying that the Lord Privy Seal Was endeavouring to find capital, while the Minister of Labour was doing her best to see that the capital was not available. I will not pursue the point further. Why will not the Minister of Labour follow the admirable Report of the Blanesburgh Committee? If she would only follow the Report of that committee in its financial 'aspects as well as in its other aspects, I am perfectly certain we should get something sounder than the present Unemployment Insurance Bill and this Financial Resolution. I hope, therefore, that when Amendments are moved in Committee and when this Financial Resolution has been passed to-night, hon. Members will try their best to amend the legislation which is forthcoming along the lines that I have-suggested.
I have listened to-day to many arguments as to why this Financial Resolution should not go through, but the reason why I am supporting it is that we, as workers, have got to the bedrock of our financial position. I want to remind the House that from 1921 to the end of 1928 the weekly wages of the workers had been reduced by no less than £4,000,000,000. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] It was by £10,500,000 per week for eight years that their wages were reduced. I am quoting from figures published from the other side of the House. There are many people in the House who have solutions to this problem. You have to do one or two things—to solve unemployment or to feed the people. I am sorry that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for St. Ives (Mr. Runciman) is not present. There are many solutions to this problem. He is a director of a company which is named the Economist Newspapers, Limited. The Economist Newspapers, Limited, are the owners of one paper called the "Investors' Chronicle." I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will not have subscribed to the policy of the paper he owns. They have a solution to this problem—not to feed the people, and no unemployment schemes are needed. On the 9th March, this year, they propounded a policy to solve unemployment, and it is this. This is an extract from a leading article:
"The economic method of dealing with an excess of population is to let the weakest go to the wall and die."
That is from a newspaper, not owned entirely by the right hon. Gentleman, but by a company of which he is a director. [HON. MEMBERS: "Have you given him notice?"] That is one method of solving the unemployment problem. I am glad the right hon. Gentleman is now in his place. I am not accusing him of this view. I am calling the attention of the House to the fact that he is a director of the paper. We have to face this—
May I be allowed to intervene, as a personal reference has been made to me, though I have had no notice that the hon. Member intended to refer to it, in accordance with the custom of the House? In order to set the hon. Member's mind at rest may I say at once that Economist Newspapers does not own the "Investors' Chronicle."
The real reason I could not give the right hon. Gentleman notice was because I have risen about 20 times and I never believed that I should be called. I did not want the right hon. Gentleman to sit in the House from 3.45 to 11 o'clock at night without his dinner.
If the hon. Member wants to know the true facts I have told him. I am not responsible for anything that appears in the "Investors' Chronicle," and I have nothing whatever to do with the paper. Any attempt on his part to fasten on to me the views of the "Investors' Chronicle" is unfair.
Withdraw!
I am prepared to read the connection if hon. Members will allow me to make my position clear. The right hon. Gentleman is also described as the principal proprietor of the "Field" and as being on the board of the Economist Newspapers Limited, which is linked up with the Financial Newspapers Limited, who are the proprietors of the "Investors' Chronicle."
"Who says that?" and "Withdraw!"
The hon. Member has not yet had an opportunity of withdrawing or explaining his statement.
Surely it is in order for hon. Members to ask the hon. Member, if he is quoting, to tell the House from what he is quoting?
I have not said otherwise. I have said that the hon. Member has not had an opportunity of withdrawing.
All I can say is that I am quoting from a newspaper I read during the week end—[HON. MEMBERS: "The Daily Herald!"]—and it was not the "Daily Herald."
It is usual when a right hon. Member or an hon. Member disclaims anything that is read from a newspaper for the hon. Member to accept his disclaimer and apologise.
I am big enough to do that. I cannot prove what I have said, and I withdraw it. I can only say that I read it in a newspaper. [HON. MEMBERS: "What newspaper!"]
Surely the hon. Member will realise that it is rather unfair to the right hon. Member for St. Ives (Mr. Runciman). Other people might fall into the same error as himself. If he can tell us from what he is quoting he should surely help us in that way.
I am telling the Committee that unfortunately I did not put the name of the newspaper down, but I assure hon. Members that they will get to know the name of the paper from which it came. It put forward that particular solution of the problem. When we speak of solving the problem of unemployment we are told by the party opposite that it cannot be done. Surely they will not question the paper from which I am now going to quote because it is the Conservative Club's Gazette, for the month of September, 1928. There is a form of question and answer in that journal as an instruction to canvassers and speakers. I will read them:
That being so, if unemployment is bound to increase in accordance with population, then as it is not human to destroy the population that is unemployed, the only alternative is to feed them. I want the Committee to remember that Earl Haig addressing a meeting in Glasgow on behalf of the British Legion in 1026 made the statement that at that time there were 600,000 ex-service men unemployed in this country. Surely ex-service men have a right to sympathy and justice from the other side. Surely the ex-service man's child has a right to live. If hon. Members consider 5s. too much let them put down an Amendment to give less, and let the country decide who is right and who is wrong. I wish that our Front Bench had gone further than they have gone but I believe in being loyal to party, and having been assured that this Bill goes as far as it is possible to go in this particular Measure, I appeal to the Committee to pass the Financial Resolution. As long as there are unemployed, they have to be kept, and the amount of money involved is pitiful. In order to vouch for what I said previously, I am going to quote from the "Directory of Directors": panies the right hon. Gentleman is a member. If the right hon. Gentleman wants me to do it, I will do it, but he asked me to prove that point, and I have done it. If the people in the country could only see the way in which hon. and right hon. Members on the other side deal with this Financial Resolution, I am absolutely confident there would not be many of those hon. and right hon. Gentlemen in the House of Commons after the next General Election. If I were to speak for a month, I could not convert a single individual of them. It is a waste of words to try, but I would ask any hon. Member who has the smallest amount of compassion in his make-up and the smallest amount of justice in his being, to vote for the Financial Resolution which gives to those who cannot help themselves a meagre degree of fair play and justice from the people of this country.
I heard the hon. Member for Silver-town (Mr. J. Jones) speak, and there is nobody who can deny that what he said is true. The right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) and his party, during the election, said they could float a loan of £200,000,000 for road making and other engineering works. If there was £200,000,000 that they could get, there is £200,000,000 that we can get. If the argument that money levied in the form of taxation reduces the amount of money for industry is true, it is true also in regard to the £200,000,000, and if they borrowed that sum for their road schemes, that would take money away from ordinary business. But what is the business from which we want to get money? Greyhound racing and many other wasteful businesses, for so they may be called, in this country.
To those who say that industry wants subsidising and not taxing I would say that it is still true that if we could only put into the pockets of the working people of this country a few millions of pounds in the form of unemployment benefit for themselves and subsistence allowances for their wives and children, our shopkeepers would be busier than they are to-day. The money that the working people get is generally spent in shops or perhaps on amusements. [An HON. MEMBER: "Greyhounds!"] There would be no greyhound racing if the working people had to find the money for it, because they have not got enough. Seeing that after all these years the present system has landed us into this position, let us reverse the process, let some of the money go into the pockets of the people, and let them spend it on the necessities of life, and the shopkeeping elements in this country, who used to support the party opposite, will thank them for doing it, because they are halt bankrupt now, simply because the working people have no money to spend in their shops. I appeal to the Committee to pass this Financial Resolution and to let us get on with the Committee stage of the Bill.
I had no intention of intervening in this Debate except to give support to the Resolution, but the hon. Member for Rossendale (Mr. Arthur Law) has a curious way of calling up his recruits. He has been urging the Committee to pass this Resolution, and in the course of his speech he began by making an accusation against me, which I at once denied. He withdrew, and then, towards the end of his speech, he tried to substantiate his earlier and inaccurate statement. The hon. Gentleman has quoted, from the Directory of Directors, a list of companies of which I have the responsibility of being a director. I am not ashamed of any of those companies. I venture to say that their proceedings are just as capable of being examined, and examined minutely, as those of any other concern in the country. He suggests that for what appeared in the "Investors' Chronicle" I was in some way responsible. I do not know how far that has been repeated outside. I need hardly say that the views which he quoted from the "Investors' Chronicle" are not shared by me. I hope he will accept that assurance, and that he will be so good, if he has made this statement outside, as to try and undo the injustice he has done me.
In the second place, the "Investors Chronicle" is not owned by the "Economist" newspaper. I am a director of the "Economist" newspaper, more in the position of a trustee than anything else, but the "Economist" newspaper does not own the "Investors Chronicle." Those who edit and control the "Investors Chronicle" will have to answer for themselves. I have nothing whatever to do with it. What its views are I did not know until to-night, but, if they are what the hon. Member has said, I can only say that I do not agree with them. I claim that in the House of Commons, where we are in the habit, and have been during this Parliament, of discussing these questions, however much we may differ, with some generosity of feeling and some attempt at accuracy, Members shall not be subjected to this form of slander.
On the general question, I would make just this single remark: I have now been in the House of Commons for a very long time; I believe I have the honour of being the fifth oldest Member of the House. During the whole of that time I have never known an hon. Member lose anything by making an ample apology and generously adhering to it. I would recommend the hon. Member for Rossendale, who has not had a very long experience of the House, to accept a little of the tradition of this great Chamber.
I am sure at this late hour the Committee will forgive me if I do not pursue the subject which has led to the discussion between the hon. Member for Rossendale (Mr. Arthur Law) and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for St. Ives (Mr. Runciman). I am sure that we on this side of the House accept fully the statement which has been made by the right hon. Gentleman; but I would congratulate the hon. Member for Rossendale on possessing a childlike simplicity which leads him to accept what may appear in a public print as being gospel truth.
I do not want to detain the Committee very long, but I would like to say that, in discussing this Financial Resolution, we are under some difficulty in the matter of procedure, and the Rulings which you, Sir, and the Deputy-Chairman, have given, go a long way to reinforce these remarks. In dealing with the Unemployment Insurance Bill, we are dealing with a Bill which raises two really perfectly separate questions. We are dealing, firstly, with the burden which may be imposed on the taxpayer, and that is really what we are dealing with under this Financial Resolution; but we are also dealing with the solvency of the Unemployment Insurance Fund. This is a matter which is not directly affected by this Resolution, but I do submit that we are in some diffi- culty in discussing this Resolution, because, strictly speaking, the Unemployment Insurance Fund, although in certain contingencies it may place a very heavy liability on the taxpayer, is really not covered by this Resolution at all, and it is very difficult to keep the two arguments on finance separate, because to some extent they overlap. I trust that I shall manage to do so, but, if I do transgress, I would ask your pardon, because of the extreme difficulty of dealing with only one of really two aspects of the same problem. It is a pity that we do not deal with a Bill of this nature under procedure which is now becoming obsolete in this House, namely, the introduction of a Resolution in Committee of the Whole House on which Resolution the Bill should be founded, because that procedure would give us a chance of discussing the whole of the financial problems raised by this Bill without transgressing the very strict limits which you, Sir, are bound to impose on this discussion. We are very handicapped in Committee as it is.
Before I come to what I have to say as my main criticism of this Resolution, I should like to deal with several minor points. The first one arises on the speech made by the right hon. Lady the Minister of Labour in the Second Reading Debate last Thursday. If the Committee will permit me, I should like to quote certain parts of her speech, because I really do want an answer to a problem which she raised in the course of her speech. The right hon. Lady said: This is the point I really wanted to make: a, ii) of the Resolution deals with the contributions to be payable in respect of persons employed outside this country in an employment which, if it were in this country, would be insurable. That really covers Clause 10 of the Bill, which says that the Minister may make Regulations to deal with this matter. I suggest that that is rather a vague state in which to leave the Bill. Will this cover the case of people who are employed abroad by foreign firms, or does it mean that the Regulations shall cover people who are employed by British firms which are domiciled here? So long as we are dealing with firms which are in this country, there is some possibility of recovering the contributions in respect of the employers and employed, but, if the men are employed by firms which are domiciled overseas, I should be interested to hear how the Government propose to recover the contributions in respect of both parties to the insurance.
There is another point on which I shall be glad to have some explanation. In paragraph ( c ) there is an arrangement, in respect of the contributions from people who no longer come under Section 5, Sub-section (5), of the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1920. That Sub-section deals with people who are in receipt of old age pensions. I presume, so far as I can understand the Schedules, that this particular provision is intended to deal with people between the ages of 65 and 70, who still remain in insurable employment. Can the Government give us any idea of the number of people who are likely to be affected by this particular Amendment? In a reply given to my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham (Sir Assheton Pownall) this afternoon, the Parliamentary Secretary of the Ministry of Labour said he was unable to give any very accurate information as to the extra expenditure involved under Clauses 4, 5, 6, 7 and 12 (3) and the Second Schedule of this Bill. I do not think we have any business to pass a Financial Resolution unless we are given very accurate information as to this matter. I would also ask a similar question with regard to vocational training. I do not imagine anybody in any quarter of the House would dispute the advisability of this particular provision, but I think we are entitled to some information as to the number of men likely to be affected by it and the annual cost. I believe the right hon. Lady made some statement on this point earlier in the evening, but I regret that I was not able to listen to her speech.
Now I come to the most important part of the Resolution, and that is paragraph ( b ). It seems to me that by accepting the terms of that paragraph the House of Commons will be throwing over its proper function as a guardian of the taxpayers and the national purse and simply be an instrument for distributing elemosynary grants on such grounds as the Minister may think fit. After all, there is no sign whatever under paragraph ( b ) that there is any pretence that the people who will receive the benefit are contributors to or members of the Insurance Fund. They are not. This is frankly a scheme to extend uncovenanted benefit to certain individuals who, in the opinion of the Minister, are not now in insurable employment and are never likely to come in, at least not in the immediate future. The cost under this paragraph, according to the Financial Memorandum attached to the Bill, amounts to £8,500,000 per annum. I would criticise this, first, on the ground that this is one of the most unimaginative proposals ever put before the House. After all, as one of my hon. Friends for one of the Shropshire divisions said this afternoon, so long as we had an idea that these people might by some future contributions, be able to come back into insurance we at least had an excuse for keeping them under the unemployment insurance scheme, but this Resolution frankly admits that they will never come back into insurable employment. The taxpayers are being asked to find £8,500,000 more than under the previous Act, and this is going to be paid out in the form of what cannot be described otherwise than as doles. This money might have been used to provide people with some form of useful work. There is no guarantee, under this proposal, that people are going to be found work of any kind. The money is not going to be spent upon improving the skill of our artisans, upon which the success of the labour market depends. Instead of getting these people back into employment hon. Members opposite say, "If we cannot give them work we will give them money."
This particular proposal shows a great lack of imagination on the part of the party which came into power through promising to deal with the unemployment problem. Under this Resolution we are taking £8,500,000 and putting it into the Insurance Fund, and then it is going to be taken out again in order to benefit certain people. This is a matter of importance, and I think on that point we are entitled to have a clear explanation of the finance of this proposal from the Government. I can understand the Government saying, "These 120,000 unfortunate individuals are unemployed, and therefore we will put up special schemes to deal with them," but I cannot imagine any sensible person saying that these people are on the Insurance Fund, because they are not. This money is going to be found out of the Exchequer. Sub-section ( b ), paragraph (ii), provides that the expenses of administration of this £8,500,000 will be paid by the Exchequer and it will not be paid out of the Fund. At present, the expenses are borne by the Insurance Fund.
I would like to know how the right hon. Lady proposes to deal with this £8,500,000? These insured people will go to the Employment Exchanges and the decisions will be given by the same insurance officials and it will be extraordinarily difficult to divide these expenses between the Unemployment Fund and the Treasury. For such a small amount it is hardly worth while making any departure from the existing practice.
Under paragraph ( a, i) children under the age of 16 are dealt with, and, in making proposals, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour has tried to justify this provision before the country on the ground that it was recommended by the majority report of the Committee on Juvenile Employment. In the case of another Clause its provisions were defended by the Minister because they were recommended by the Morris Committee. I protest strongly against this or any Government bringing before this House proposals entailing heavy or even light Government expenditure on the ground that they have been recommended by a Committee. These Committees are appointed to consider certain special terms of reference, and are not permitted to examine, and do not have much opportunity of examining, the financial implications of the subject of their investigations; and least of all have they any power to see how their recommendations, if adopted, will affect the finances of the nation. That is not, I agree, the business of these Committees, but it is our business as Members of the House of Commons, and we are faced with this piecemeal legislation—a burden recommended by Committee "A," a burden recommended by Committee "B," a burden recommended by Committee "C"—and are given no explanation either as to the total burden placed on the Exchequer or even as to whether, if a limit were put to the total amount, these Committees would have recommended the propositions that they put forward. These Committees work in a vacuum, and the financial department is one which they never consider, and on which they are perfectly incompetent to make a recommendation.
The various suggestions of the Government have already entailed a considerable financial burden, and there is not likely to be a surplus of £19,000,000 at the end of the financial year. We are ceasing to be the guardians of the public purse, and are becoming a mere machine for registering the decrees which happen to please individual Ministers. We, to whom the people should look for sound finance, are left in entire ignorance both as to the amount of the liability and as to what is likely to be the residue to meet it. That is an entire departure from our traditions as Members of Parliament and from the traditions of the House of Commons. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) the other day expressed surprise at the child-like faith of hon. Members opposite in the ability of what they are pleased to call the capitalist system to bear these innumerable burdens. I think that if he had listened to-day to the hon. Member for Southampton (Mr. Morley) he would have been a little less impressed by their child-like simplicity. The hon. Member said that Members on that side welcome taxation because they regard it as at any rate one method of securing, by the inevitability of gradualness, the breaking down of the existing industrial system. I can understand hon. Members opposite showing a certain amount of enthusiasm for breaking down the present system, but it. is our business to see that there is some amount of reason in the way we spend public money. Hon. Members opposite hope, by placing a burden here and a burden there, to render it impossible to carry on, not only the existing, but any possible industrial system in this country. They are so anxious to destroy the existing system that they are perfectly careless whether they smother under the ruins of the system, so long as they can pull it down, not only the prosperity of the country but the hope of millions of working people that they may never achieve either comfort or a livelihood. They are so obsessed by a theory that, provided it can be fulfilled, they are careless of the results. I shall go cheerfully into the Lobby against the Resolution.
I desire unreservedly to withdraw the imputations which I made against the right hon. Gentleman the Member for St. Ives (Mr. Runciman), and I apologise for having made them. I want to assure the Committee that it is true that I have never made the statements before anywhere, and I never will again.
I thank the hon. Member for his unreserved withdrawal, and I feel sure he will recognise that that was the right course to take. I am only too glad to find him associating himself so early with the traditions of the House.
I think the Committee is ready to come to a decision, and therefore I shall not detain it long. The questions which the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Oxford (Captain Bourne) has asked have been answered in advance. The major charge that he made against the Government policy as shown by the Resolution is that the effect of what is happening is the ruin of the insurance system. I think hon. Members opposite would like the Committee and the country to forget that the present Government inherited a bankrupt insurance system, and that we are actually taking the first step to save it. The first thing this Government had to do when they came into office was to get £3,500,000 for the payment of benefit. When the Government of 1924 left office there was a debt of £7,000,000. When we came back, there was a debt of £37,000,000. When we left office the revenue would maintain something like 1,200,000 on the register. When we came back, it would maintain 1,000,000 on the register. But, what is more important still, although there was only revenue coming in to maintain 1,000,000, for the previous twelve months there had been in fact something like 1,300,000 on the average, and the previous Government had actually borrowed £12,000,000 in the previous twelve months.
They not only left this Government with £37,000,000 of debt, with a revenue that would maintain only 1,000,000 persons upon the register, but it was quite clear that the only course open to the old Government, if they had come back, would have been to do what we have done, or to increase the contributions, or to take these 120,000 men and put them upon the Poor Law authorities. We have asked repeatedly, what is the policy of the Opposition in respect of these men? The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wood Green (Mr. G. Locker-Lampson), no doubt in a moment of forgetfulness, talked about local authorities taking charge of these men. When I drew attention to his phrase on Thursday night, he said that we wanted special schemes. The hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Kelvingrove (Major Elliot) took the same course. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Stafford (Mr. Ormsby-Gore) tried to explain and give something like an outline of their policy. The only inference anyone can draw is that the alternative policy of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite to this £8,000,000 from the Exchequer is to put these 120,000 men on to the Poor Law and make paupers of them.
This is a point of some importance. It seems that we did not make ourselves clear to the hon. Gentleman. It may have been our fault. I and the right hon. Member for Wood Green (Mr. G. Locker-Lampson) and others have said, as the right hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Ormsby-Gore), said this evening, that in the management of these grants the local authorities would need to be closely associated. Are we clear about that point? The local authorities were to come in as partners in the administration of these grants. As to the source of these grants, we said that right hon. Gentlemen and hon. Gentlemen in bringing forward this proposal for an Exchequer grant to cover these 120,000 men was a proposal from which at the moment we had no intention of departing.
I thank the hon. and gallant Gentleman for the explanation which he has given, but there has not come an admission from the benches behind him that financial responsibility for these 120,000 people should be accepted by the Exchequer. Instead of allowing the Insurance scheme to remain bankrupt, the Government have taken the first step toward saving the Insurance Fund and making it something like solvent in the interests of the people for whom it exists. There is another point to which some prominence was given in speeches by hon. Members on the benches opposite, and also by a right hon. Gentleman on the Liberal benches, who I do not think for a moment represented the views of the Members on those benches. It was a speech which dealt with the cost of the administration of the Unemployment Insurance Fund. One hon. Mem- ber remarked that it cost 2s. 6d. out of every pound to administer the Fund. When that hon. Member was in the House in a previous Parliament I thought that he was of advanced thought, but he seems to have become so reactionary as to challenge the giving of aid to the unemployed. What is the cost of the administration of the Fund? Admittedly, the maximum is 12½ per cent. Certain insurance companies would be pleased to administer their organisations on that basis.
And trade unions.
It is a very dangerous thing to talk about the cost of administration without going into all the comparable facts. It would be easy for me to say that it was an outrage that the expenditure upon the administration of workmen's compensation was 27½ per cent. compared with the 12½ per cent. for the cost of administering the unemployment insurance. That would be an easy thing to do, if I wanted to defend the administration of this Fund, by comparison. There is no hon. Member who knows anything about the administration of unemployment insurance, about Employment Exchanges, the work they do in consultations, and the number of times they deal with a single man, who will not say that 12½ per cent. is a small administrative cost compared with the amount of work done. It is amazing that so little real criticism has been made of the Financial Resolution, and I now ask the Committee, at this late hour to agree to the Resolution.
It is not my fault that I have to speak at this late hour. I have been trying for some time to take part in the discussion. I listened to the remarks of the hon. Member for Southampton (Mr. Morley). His view was that this money which is being given to the unemployed will help trade. According to the argument, the way to make the country prosperous is to give out more and more of the taxpayers' money. I have profound sympathy with the unemployed, and I admit that malingering goes on to a very small extent. I have seen the unemployed men in Glasgow, and a finer body of men I do not want to see. I am satisfied that what they want is work. Look what happened the other day at the Liverpool docks. There were a few hundreds of places vacant and thousands of men were struggling to get the jobs. The difficulty which I see about this social legislation was put to me by same quarrymen, who said that what working men were supposed to get in the way of social services amounted to about 5s. per week on their wages. They would be far better off if they had that money in their pockets and provided for themselves. In former generations the King was the spending authority, with the House of Commons to represent the taxpayers refusing all the money they could refuse and diligently auditing His Majesty's accounts. Of recent years, this House has become, not the representative of the taxpayers but of the tax receivers. There is nobody to audit the accounts, because each party is involved more and more in using the taxpayers' money and handing it out in some form or other. That is a very dangerous position for the country, and it cannot go on long. It is all very well talking of taxing the rich. You cannot do it. The rich can very easily put their money out of the reach of the tax collector. I was speaking not very long ago to a very wealthy man, and he told me that he had over a million lying abroad, in a holding company, so that it did not come into his Income Tax return. I said, "Why not use it to give employment?" He replied that with taxation if he made any profit he would pay 18s. in the pound and if he made a loss he would pay 20s. in the pound. There is the position, and it will go on until ultimately there is no doubt whatever that the taxpayers will get tired of paying taxes. I say both parties are equally responsible. The way that this House has been behaving, not only in this Parliament but in the last, sometimes makes me feel in the position of a man who is in a hopeless minority in a certain institution. This Parliament has impressed itself more and more upon me as if I were in a mental hospital with the patients in charge.
The hon. Member for Southampton (Mr. Morley) made one or two curious remarks. For instance, he denounced steamers taking people on voyages for enjoyment. Where would Southampton be if it were not for steamers making pleasure voyages? There would be no Southampton, and we should have lost the hon. Member's presence in this House—and I cannot imagine a greater national calamity than that.
No Government seems to have had the imagination to make any provision for getting work for the unemployed. In Queen Elizabeth's days they said that poverty was to be relieved, and it always has been relieved. Prior to her time the monasteries provided the unemployed with work. They took them in and made them cultivate the land. Why cannot we take some steps of that kind? The destruction of the monasteries was the greatest calamity for the unemployed. There is only one provision to which I see any objection, because after all there is not much in the two shillings one way or another. The fact that it has been disappointing to a great many Members on the other side shows that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has preserved his equity. The provision with regard to the rising generation is an extraordinary one. It reminds me very much of the position of a certain gentleman who was known as Economist Jones. He used to attend certain premises on Saturday nights to meet his friends. He always paid for his refreshment—he had more than one— in coppers. At last the landlord said: "How is it, Mr. Jones, that you have always so many coppers on Saturday nights?" He replied: "I have a large family and my children have small banks into which they put their money." It seems to me that very much in the same way the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Minister of Labour are taking coppers from the children and spending it to support the Fund. I want to see real organisation, but it is not desirable that the children should go to their unemployment bureaux. It is a very difficult thing for parents to bring up their children. I am always very sympathetic with the wealthy in that matter, because we know the great difficulty. There is nothing more fatal than for a young man to be born into wealth and affluence. I remember a very wise old gentleman, to whom I am indebted for most of the good advice I ever received, saying that the greatest of all inheritances a young man could get was to be thrown on his own resources. There is no doubt about that. We must all have known cases of men who have struggled from the hardest life to a position of affluence who made up their minds that their offspring shall not have such a hard time as themselves. Almost invariably the children have turned out to be no good. The habits of industry are most difficult to acquire. Young people do not like to be industrialised early in life. There will be, I believe, a demand for the labour of young people, and I think they should start getting the drudgery over far younger than is proposed. Fifteen is far too old to begin to learn to work. You will never teach children a handicraft if you commence at that age. In the Orient they start a child at 10 years of age to learn his father's trade, and at 12 he is a splendid craftsman. Then he goes to school.
The hon. and learned Member is wandering rather far away from the Money Resolution.
I was speaking to the first paragraph, and I want to make a suggestion. Fifteen is a very critical age. It is just the time when they are beginning to become rebels, and boys and girls of that age are very difficult to control. In the old days when an apprentice took his week's wages home, 2s. 6d. or 1s. he gave it to his mother, who probably gave him a penny to play with. In those days there was some sort of parental control. There is, apparently no parental control here, and I suggest that this money should not be given to these young people at the Employment Exchanges, but should be handed over to their parents, who would thus have some control over the Fund and over the rising generation. These proposals will be the beginning of a sapping of parental control and, also, I believe a sapping of the independence of the young, and they will cut off, just at the critical period of life, that stimulus which is necessary to the acquisition of habits of industry. Because this is an attack on the moral and the character of the rising generation, and for that reason alone, I am going into the Lobby against the Financial Resolution as I went into the Lobby against the Bill.
rose —
Divide!
On a point of Order. Cannot my hon. and gallant Friend be allowed to proceed, in view of the fact that the Government moved the suspension of the Eleven o'clock Rule.
Is it not strictly in accordance with Parliamentary practice for hon. Members to indicate their wish to go to a Division?
I feel that hon. Members opposite do not know all about this Financial Resolution, and it is obviously necessary for me to point out—
Divide!
Probably, if the Committee keeps its good temper, the hon. and gallant Member's speech will occupy only a few minutes, and we can then go to a Division.
I have no intention of delaying the Committee for more than a few minutes, but there were many occasions in the last Parliament when we kept silence while hon. Members then in Opposition got rid of everything they had on their chests. Many times they kept us sitting until the early hours of the morning and we listened to them because we felt that they had grievances to express and because we had every sympathy with them. We listened quietly and courteously and I feel that the courtesy which we extended to them, I might expect, in my turn, on this occasion. Having listened to this Debate I cannot understand how the Government can muster sufficient support to take them into the Lobby because on every side there has been dissatisfaction with the Bill. We all felt that the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) was certain to give us his support, but the hon. Member is like a bulldog of mine —he has a very kind heart and a very menacing face. When I bring people to my home they look at my bulldog and wonder what part he is going to select to put his teeth into, when all the time the bulldog is only anxious to lick their hands. Apparently, the hon. Member was merely anxious to lick the hands of the Prime Minister and did not wish to get his teeth into the right hon. Gentleman. The right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), who, I thought, was going to support us, after he had torn the Bill to pieces in principle and in detail, and consequently would have torn the Resolution too—
The hon. and gallant Member is now discussing; the Bill, and I must ask him to confine himself to the Money Resolution.
The Money Resolution is so bound up with the Bill that it is hard to avoid an occasional mention of the Bill, but I will leave that point. There are many and obvious deductions to be drawn from the introduction of the Bill and its consequent Money Resolution, and the first that presents itself to me is that the Lord Privy Seal has thrown his hand in. There are no more shots in the locker. The cupboard is bare. [An HON. MEMBER: "Flapdoodle!"] Is "flapdoodle" a Parliamentary expression, Mr. Deputy-Chairman?
I can only rule that language which is not strictly un-parliamentary is largely a matter of taste.
I am forced to the conclusion that the Government cannot provide work and can only go back on their election speeches and say they must find maintenance. Where is the resource, the initiative, even the sympathy that produces the maintenance such as hon. Members opposite have offered? I say, and I say with justice, that the effort of the Government to provide what they consider maintenance for the people is a discreditable effort and one of which every hon. Member opposite should be ashamed. They have no considerations in regard to the welfare of the country or of industry to restrict them, they have no concern for the future of the industrial and financial position of the country; and, therefore, if they say that 14s. is sufficient for a man, 12s. for a girl, and 5s. for a child, they must think so. I remember that during the election I was asked whether I thought 8s. was enough for a young girl to live on, and I hope that such taunts as that will be levelled at the hon. Members opposite during the next election and that they will be asked whether they consider 12s. is enough for a young girl to live on. If they had any courage, they would go to the country now and acknowledge their failure. One is forced to consider what this Government is composed of.
I do not want to be unduly hard in my rulings, but the hon. and gallant Member must keep to the Resolution.
The Government are responsible for this Resolution, and surely I am in order in asking, "Are they knaves or fools in bringing it in, or are they an unfortunate mixture of both?" My point is that either they are knaves in seeking to add £500,000 in bolstering up an Unemployment Fund, which they are taking from the parents by a backdoor method, and from the children, who are not likely, in spite of their efforts, to be unemployed for years to come—and surely that is a knavish trick, for which no hon. Member of the party opposite can stand—or they are fools, because they are taking away the initiative from young people who are about to enter the world and take up positions of responsibility. I ask every hon. Member opposite to think of what effect these financial proposals are going to have on these children, who, we hope, will be educated into decent citizens. They are going to learn that the Employment Exchange is a place at which to get money for nothing, instead of work for wages. Surely, that is going to damn the future character of our people. How can we expect them to emigrate? [ Interruption. ] I understood that the policy of this Government was to get the old people out of industry, and the. young people in. Surely, this is the very negative of that policy. Hon. Members
opposite are trying to do all the harm they possibly can to the very best interests of our country, and so I ask hon. Members opposite—[ Interruption. ] As a matter of fact, for all the good I shall do I might be talking about guinea-pigs. What are hon. Members on the back benches opposite going to do with regard to this Resolution? [ Interruption. ]
rose —
No hon. Member has the right to claim the attention of the Committee unless the hon. Member who is speaking gives way.
I understood that the hon. and gallant Member was giving way.
The hon. Member was mistaken. Hon. Members on the back benches opposite are endeavouring, by the support which they are going to give to this Money Resolution, to turn this country into a community of subsidised paupers and pauperised employers. That is going to be the final result of their policy, and I do ask them, before going into the Division Lobby, to think that over; to think of their responsibilities; and, if they will do that, they will then, I think, be converted, and will support us in our opposition to this Resolution.
Question put.
The Committee divided: Ayes, 243; Noes, 130.
Division No. 47.] AYES. [12.13 a.m. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Brown, C. W. E. (Notts. Mansfield) Egan, W. H. Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Brown, Ernest (Leith) Elmley, Viscount Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro') Burgess, F. G. Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer) Alpass, J. H. Burgin, Dr. E. L. Foot, Isaac Ammon, Charles George Caine, Derwent Hall- Forgan, Dr. Robert Angell, Norman Cameron, A. G. Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.) Arnott, John Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.) George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) Aske, Sir Robert Charleton, H. C. George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea) Ayles, Walter Church, Major A. G. Gill, T. H. Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Cluse, W. S. Gillett, George M. Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley) Cocks, Frederick Seymour Glassey, A. E. Barnes, Alfred John Compton, Joseph Gossling, A. G. Bellamy, Albert Daggar, George Gould, F. Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood Dallas, George Granville, E. Bennett, William (Battersea, South) Dalton, Hugh Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne). Benson, G. Davies, E. C. (Montgomery) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Bentham, Dr. Ethel Denman, Hon. R. D. Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.) Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale) Devlin, Joseph Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret Dickson, T. Groves, Thomas E. Bowen, J. W. Dudgeon, Major C. R. Grundy, Thomas W. Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Dukes, C. Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Broad, Francis Alfred Duncan, Charles Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Brockway, A. Fenner Ede, James Chuter Hall, Capt. W. P. (Portsmouth, C.) Bromfield, William Edge, Sir William Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Zetland) Brooke, W. Edmunds, J. E. Harbison, T. J. Brothers, M. Edwards, E. (Morpeth) Hardie, George D. Harris, Percy A. Mansfield, W. Scurr, John Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Marcus, M. Sexton, James Hastings, Dr. Somerville Markham, S. F. Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Hayday, Arthur Marley, J. Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Hayes, John Henry Mathers, George Sherwood, G. H. Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.) Matters, L. W. Shield, George William Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) Melville, Sir James Shiels, Dr. Drummond Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) Messer, Fred Shillaker, J. F. Herriotts, J. Middleton, G. Simmons, C. J. Hirst, G. H.(York W. R. Wentworth) Millar, J. D. Smith, Alfred (Sunderland) Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Mills, J. E. Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) Hoffman, P. C. Milner, J. Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Hollins, A. Montague, Frederick Smith, Tom (Pontefract) Hopkin, Daniel Morgan, Dr. H. B. Smith, W. R. (Norwich) Hore-Belisha, Leslie Morley, Ralph Snowden, Thomas (Accrington) Horrabin, J. F. Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South) Sorensen, R. Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.) Spero, Dr. G. E. Hunter, Dr. Joseph Mort, D. L. Stamford, Thomas W. Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R. Moses, J. J. H. Strachey, E. J. St. Loe Isaacs, George Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent) Strauss, G. R. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Muff, G. Sutton, J. E. John, William (Rhondda, West) Nathan, Major H. L. Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln) Johnston, Thomas Naylor, T. E. Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.) Jones, F. Llewellyn-(Flint) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby) Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Noel Baker, P. J. Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Jones, Rt. Hon Leif (Camborne) Oldfield, J. R. Thurtle, Ernest Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley) Tinker, John Joseph Jowitt, Rt. Hon. Sir W. A. Owen, Major G. (Carnarvon) Toole, Joseph Kelly, W. T. Palin, John Henry Tout, W. J. Kennedy, Thomas Paling, Wilfrid Townend, A. E. Kinley, J. Perry, S. F. Turner, B. Lang, Gordon Peters, Dr. Sidney John Vaughan, D. J. Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Viant, S. P. Lathan, G. Phillips, Dr. Marlon Walker, J. Law, A. (Rosendale) Picton-Turbervill, Edith Wallace, H. W. Lawrence, Susan Potts, John S. Watkins, F. C. Lawson, John James Price, M. P. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Lawther W. (Barnard Castle) Pybus, Percy John Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Leach, W. Ramsay, T. B. Wilson Wellock, Wilfred Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern) Rathbone, Eleanor West, F. R. Lees, J. Raynes, W. R. Westwood, Joseph Lewis, T. (Southampton) Richards, R. White, H. G. Lindley, Fred W. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood) Lloyd, C. Ellis Riley, Ben (Dewsbury) Whiteley, William (Blaydon) Longbottom, A. W. Ritson, J. Williams, David (Swansea, East) Lovat-Fraser, J. A. Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Lunn, William Romeril, H. G. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) Rosbotham, D. S. T. Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham) Rowson, Guy Wilson, J. (Oldham) McElwee, A. Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) McEntee, V. L. Salter, Dr. Alfred Winterton, G. E. (Leicester, Loughb'gh) Mackinder, W. Samuel, H. W. (Swansea, West) Wise, E. F. McKinlay, A. Sanders, W. S. Wright, W. (Rutherglen) Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Sandham, E. McShane, John James Sawyer, G. F. TELLERS FOR THE AYES— Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Scrymgeour, E. Mr. Parkinson and Mr. Charles Edwards. NOES. Albery, Irving James Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley) Allen, W. E. D. (Belfast, W.) Colman, N. C. D. Glyn, Major R. G. C. Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Cranbourne, Viscount Gower, Sir Robert Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Grace, John Atkinson, C. Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley) Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West) Greene, W. P. Crawford Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet) Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John Balniel, Lord Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford) Gunston, Captain D. W. Beaumont, M. W. Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil) Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. Bevan, S. J. (Holborn) Dawson, Sir Philip Hanbury, C. Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Dixey, A. C. Hartington, Marquess of Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W. Duckworth, G. A. V. Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Boyce, H. L. Dugdale, Capt. T. L. Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Bracken, B. Eden, Captain Anthony Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. Braithwaite, Major A. N. Edmondson, Major A. J. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Brass, Captain Sir William Elliot, Major Walter E. Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) Briscoe, Richard George Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) Kindersley, Major G. M. Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) Ferguson, Sir John King, Commodore Rt. Hon. Henry D. Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Fermoy, Lord Knox, Sir Alfred Bullock, Captain Malcolm Fielden, E. B. Lamb, Sir J. Q. Butler, R. A. Fison, F. G. Clavering Leighton, Major B. E. P. Butt, Sir Alfred Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Lewis, Oswald (Colchester) Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Llewellin, Major J. J. Castle Stewart, Earl of Galbraith, J. F. W. Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Ganzoni, Sir John Long, Major Eric Lymington, Viscount Ramsbotham, H. Stuart, J. C. (Moray and Nairn) Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Remer, John R. Todd, Capt. A. J. Macquisten, F. A. Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall) Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement MacRobert, Rt. Hon. Alexander M. Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon Margesson, Captain H. D. Ross, Major Ronald D. Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull) Marjoribanks, E. C. Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. Warrender, Sir Victor Mond, Hon. Henry Salmon, Major I. Waterhouse, Captain Charles Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Wayland, Sir William A. Moore, Sir Newton J. (Richmond) Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart Wells, Sydney R. Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D. Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) Muirhead, A. J. Savery, S. S. Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount Nicholson, O. (Westminster) Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's U., Belfast) Womersley, W. J. Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William Skelton, A. N. Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley Peake, Capt. Osbert Smith-Carington, Neville W. Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton Penny, Sir George Smithers, Waldron Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Southby, Commander A. R. J. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Sir Frederick Thomson and Captain Power, Sir John Cecil Stanley, Lord (Fylde) Wallace. Pownall, Sir Assheton Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland)
Resolution to be reported To-morrow.
Gas Undertakings Acts, 1920 and 1929
Resolved,
"That the draft of a Special Order proposed to be made by the Board of Trade under the Gas Undertakings Acts, 1920 and 1929, on the application of the Gravesend and Milton Gas Light Company, which was presented on the 29th day of October and published, be approved."
Resolved,
"That the draft of a Special Order proposed to be made by the Board of Trade under the Gas Undertakings Acts, 1920 and 1929, on the application of the Horley District Gas Company, which was presented on the 29th day of October and published, be approved."
Resolved,
"That the draft of a Special Order proposed to be made by the Board of Trade under the Gas Undertakings Acts, 1920 and 1929, on the application of the Ipswich Gas Light Company, which was presented on the 29th day of October and published, be approved."
Resolved,
"That the draft of a Special Order proposed to be made by the Board of Trade under the Gas Undertakings Acts, 1920 and 1929, on the application of the Prescot Gas Company, which was presented on the 29th day of October and published, be approved, subject to the fallowing modification:
Clause 25, line 5, omit the words from 'and if in any year,' to the end of the Clause."
Resolved,
"That the draft of a Special Order proposed to be made by the Board of Trade under the Gas Undertakings Acts, 1920 and 1929, on the application of the Sandown Gas and Coke Company, Limited, which was presented on the 29th day of October and published, be approved."—[ Mr. W. R. Smith. ]
Electricity (Supply) Acts
Resolved,
"That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1928, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of part of the rural district of Worksop, in the county of Nottingham, which was presented on the 29th day of October, 1929, be approved."
Resolved,
"That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1928, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the urban district of Cudworth and the township of Billingley, in the rural district of Barnsley, in the West Riding of the county of York, which was presented on the 29th day of October; 1929, be approved."
Resolved,
"That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1928, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the urban district of Trawden, in the county palatine of Lancaster, which was presented on the 29th day of October, 1929, be approved."—[ Mr. Herbert Morrison. ]
Motion made and Question proposed,
"That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1928, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of parts of the rural districts of Chipping Sodbury and Thornbury, in the county of Gloucester, and part of the rural district of Keynsham, in the county of Somerset, which was presented on the 29th day of October, 1929, be approved."—[ Mr. Herbert Morrison. ]
I would like to ask in this particular instance, how long it has taken the Ministry to approve of this Order? Why have they been so long about it?
The procedure is well known to the authorities in the district concerned. I cannot say why there has been delay in the making of this Order. If the hon. and gallant Member requires any further information, I shall be pleased to communicate with him.
Question put, and agreed to.
Resolved,
"That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1928, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, for the amendment of the Burnham-on-Crouch and District Electricity Special Order, 1927, which was presented on the 29th day of October, 1929, be approved."- [ Mr. Herbert Morrison. ]
Electricity (Supply) Acts, and the Leicestershire and Warwickshire Electric Power, Act, 1926
Resolved,
"That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1928, and the Leicestershire and Warwickshire Electric Power Act, 1926, to increase the capital and borrowing powers of the Leicestershire and Warwickshire Electric Power Company, which was presented on the 29th day of October, 1929, be approved."-[ Mr. Herbert Morrison. ]
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
It being after half-past Eleven of the Clock upon Monday evening, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned at Twenty-nine Minutes before One o'clock.