House of Commons
Monday, December 2, 1929
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
Oral Answers to Questions
India
Naval Cadets (Training)
asked the Secretary of State for India when it is expected that the first Indian naval cadets or candidates for naval commissions will arrive for training in the Royal Navy; and how many of these gentlemen is it proposed to train in a year?
The answer to the first part is, in September next provided that qualified candidates are forthcoming. Three vacancies are being offered on the present occasion. As regards the second part, there is no fixed annual number, and I am afraid I cannot give any reliable estimate, since the Service is small and the rate of recruitment problematical.
Provided suitable candidates are available, will my right hon. Friend consider increasing the number of entrants so as to make up the loss?
As my hon. and gallant Friend knows, the proportion has been fixed, and I do not think that at present I can alter that proportion.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether India has started to build any warships on which these officers can be trained?
I think I must have notice of that question.
Secretary of State (Visit)
asked the Secretary of State for India if it is his intention to visit India before the Statutory Commission reports?
I have already stated on 4th November that such is not my intention.
Malaria (Bengal)
asked the Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been drawn to the increase of preventable malaria in Bengal and the recent Report of Sir Malcolm Watson to the Ross Institute for an inquiry; whether he will follow the precedent of Mr. Joseph Chamberlain, who instituted an inquiry that led to the stamping out of Mediterranean fever; and whether he will immediately promote liaison work with British Guiana, where a similar problem with part East Indian population has been successfully dealt with?
So far as I am aware there has been no increase in malaria in Bengal in recent years. I understand that Sir Malcolm Watson's suggestion was that an inquiry should be made as to whether the embankments of the Ganges Delta produce conditions favourable to malaria, and, if so, whether a remedy could be found. This matter is now engaging the attention of the Government of Bengal. I may add that a chair of malariology will be established in the new Rockefeller Institute in Calcutta.
Is it not a fact that no policy has yet been given out that would really reduce malaria, that it requires a great deal more inquiry, and would it not be a good thing to institute a Government inquiry with the different Departments concerned with India and the Colonies generally?
That is a much wider question. I have stated what steps are being taken in India.
Medical Service
asked the Secretary of State for India what action the Government of India intend to take in view of the rejection by the Indian Legislative Assembly of the proposal of the Government to appoint a European officer of the Indian medical service as a whole-time commissioner of medical qualifications and standards; and whether the creation of this post was proposed as an alternative to the creation of a Government commission on medical qualifications and standards or as an expedient pending the setting up of such permanent machinery?
The demand for a grant for the expenses of this appointment was not rejected by the Legislative Assembly, as the House was adjourned before the termination of the Debate on it. The Government of India are consulting the Provincial Governments as to the measures to be adopted to meet the situation and to secure the continued recognition of Indian medical degrees. The creation of the post was proposed as a temporary measure pending the establishment, by legislative enactment, of an All-India Medical Council.
Land Revenue Assessment
asked the Secretary of State for India whether, in regard to the recommendation of the Joint Parliamentary Committee, made 10 years ago, that the process of revising land revenue assessment ought to be brought under closer regulation by statute, any further progress has been made towards implementing this recommendation in those provinces where legislation giving effect to this principle has not been passed?
So far as I am aware, the position is still as described in the reply I gave my hon. and gallant Friend on the 22nd July.
Trade Commissioners
asked the Secretary of State for India whether any action is to be taken on the recommendation of the Indian Trade Mission, set up by the Government of India, that Indian trade commissioners should be appointed at Alexandria, Mombasa, and Durban?
I have no information, but will inquire.
Conference
asked the Secretary of State for India whether it is proposed, at the conference of British Indian leaders and rulers of Indian States to be convened after the publication of the Report of the Statutory Commission on Indian Constitutional Reform, to make provision for the inclusion of the representatives of the peoples of the Indian States?
So far as the Indian States are concerned, the questions which it is contemplated will be discussed at the Conference will be confined to the broad question of constitutional policy, in regard to which the acknowledged rulers of Indian States are the only persons who can speak with authority. Questions concerning the internal government of the States will not arise at the Conference.
Meerut Trial
BECKETT asked the Secretary of State for India how much money has been allocated up to date to meet the costs of the prosecution in the Meerut conspiracy trial; how much the prosecution is spending per diem on special lawyers and witnesses; whether any witnesses have been sent from England to India, and, if so, how many; whether any of these witnesses are in public employment in Britain; to what sum of money the total cost of the prosecution in the Meerut conspiracy case is expected to amount; and from what funds this expenditure of public money is being met?
I have no information except that contained in a reply given in the Legislative Assembly on the 5th September, of which I will send my hon. Friend a copy. Nine witnesses have been sent out from England, all of whom are in public employment.
I thank my right hon. Friend very much for the information which he is sending me, but can he tell me whether these nine people who are in Government employment are members of the British Police Force or the Civil Service, or what kind of public employment they hold?
With pleasure: They represent three departments—Scotland Yard, the Post Office, and the Passport Office.
Trade and Commerce
India
asked the Secretary of State for India what duties are placed on the imports of British cotton goods into India; whether the duties on British cotton goods are lower than those on foreign cotton goods; and whether, in view of the prevailing depression in the cotton industry, he will make efforts to secure for British cotton goods imported into India more favourable terms?
The duty on all cotton piece goods whether of British or foreign origin is 11 per cent. ad valorem, while that on cotton yarn is 5 per cent. or l½ annas per pound, whichever is higher. The hon. Member is no doubt aware of the freedom of tariff policy enjoyed by India under the Fiscal Autonomy Convention.
In view of the state of the cotton industry, will he endeavour to secure better terms?
I could not dream of interfering with the Fiscal Autonomy Convention which has now existed for some time.
Does the right hon. Gentleman approve of that policy for India?
That is the policy from which I do not intend to depart.
Do you approve of it?
asked the Secretary of State for India whether he has made representations to the Government in India with a view to securing a preference for British products in the terms of all contracts under their control; and, if not, whether he will consider doing so?
I will send the hon. Gentleman a copy of my answer of 18th November which replies to the question he now asks.
asked the Secretary of State for India whether he has been in communication with the Government of India respecting the possibilities of increasing the market in India for British products; and, if not, whether, in the interests of employment in this country, he will appoint a British trade mission to visit India?
I have been asked to reply. The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. As regards the second part, I do not think any useful purpose would be served at present by action of the kind suggested. I would remind the hon. Member that the existing organisation in India of the Department of Overseas Trade is in constant touch with the commercial situation. The Senior Trade Commissioner is at present in this country, where he has during the past few months visited many of the Chambers of Commerce and addressed trade associations on commercial matters besides interviewing a large number of individual firms.
Argentina
asked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department if he has been informed by the Argentine Government if the tariff concessions granted to this country by the Argentine Government under the Anglo-Argentine agreement will be extended to other countries?
No, Sir. I should explain that His Majesty's Government, whilst they welcome reduced duties, do not seek preferential treatment as against other countries.
In regard to artificial silk, the concessions in regard to lower duties that have been given on our silk goods in the Argentine can be given on equal terms to Germany, France, Italy, and other countries?
We have no information on that point. There is nothing in the agreement to prevent them giving the concessions, but we have no reason to think that they will give them.
As this is a matter of great importance, will the hon. Member get definite information and give it to the House?
asked the Prime Minister whether, and when, the trade agreement with the Argentine will be brought up for consideration in this House before it is put into operation?
I understand the hon. Member's question to refer to the offer of the Argentine Government, under certain conditions, to reduce the duty on artificial silk. As already explained to the House, no action is contemplated on the part of His Majesty's Government except a declaration of existing policy, and I see no reason for submitting the matter formally to the House.
May I ask whether the declaration made by the Government will include the prohibition of any kind of imports from any other country?
The hon. Member had perhaps better address that question to the Department concerned. I have only answered from the point of view of the Business of the House.
May we know whether this is not the declaration made by the British Ambassador at Buenos Ayres on condition of which we have this reduction?
As I said, if the hon. Member desires to find that out, perhaps he will be good enough to put a question to the Department concerned.
Is the nature of this undertaking such that the future policy of this country will also be governed by it? Does that follow?
The hon. Member is now going beyond the question on the Paper.
China and Russia
13 and 15.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, (1) whether, Soviet Russia having recently signed the Kellogg pact and being now engaged in war with the Chinese forces, he will consult the cosignatories to the Kellogg pact as to the steps that can be immediately taken to maintain and uphold such pact;
(2) whether he can give the House the latest information in relation to the present fighting between the Soviet and Chinese forces, particularly as to the massacres by Soviet troops of workmen who had taken refuge in the Dalai Nor mines?
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been drawn to the state of war which exists on the Russo-Chinese frontier; and whether either the Government of the Union of Socialist Soviet Republics or the Government of the Chinese Republic have taken any steps to submit their dispute to the League of Nations?
16 and 17.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, (1) whether the Chinese Government have approached him, through their representative, in order to ask His Majesty's Government in Great Britain to support their application to the League of Nations to intervene so as to prevent further hostilities between their forces and those of the Union of Socialist Soviet Republics; whether he has been approached in the matter by any of the organisations devoted to peace in this country; and what action he proposes to take;
(2) if he has any information to show the number of casualties which have occurred as a result of hostilities in recent months between the forces of the Union of Socialist Soviet Republics and those of the Chinese Republic; and whether he will state, for the information of British nationals in China, whether a state of war exists between the two countries?
20 and 21.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, (1) whether he can make any statement as to the present position in Manchuria;
(2) whether he has been approached by the Chinese Government with a view to any action being taken by the Council of the League of Nations in respect of recent events in Manchuria?
Under instructions from his Government the United States Ambassador has invited the co-operation of His Majesty's Government in the issue of joint representations to the Chinese and Soviet Governments in regard to the situation in Manchuria, calling the attention of those Governments to their obligations under the Kellogg Pact.
I have agreed that His Majesty's Government should be associated in such representations, and they are now being made to both Governments, and we have arranged with the Government of the United States to publish a Press statement simultaneously to-morrow morning. As to the existence of a state of war, I can only say that as far as I know neither the Chinese nor the Soviet Government have informed any other Government that they consider themselves at war.
To the best of my belief the Chinese Government have taken no definite steps to bring the dispute before the League of Nations, but on the 28th of November the Chinese Minister informed me that his Government contemplated such an appeal and asked for my views on the matter. I pointed out the difficulty that arose owing to the Soviet Union not being a member of the League, and informed him of the action of the United States Government. The Chinese Minister for Foreign Affairs has informed His Majesty's Minister that, now that Chinese territory has been occupied, he feels the matter must go to the League of Nations.
There appears to be reason for believing that an armistice has been arranged. According to a telegram from His Majesty's Consul-General at Mukden, the Mukden authorities sent to Moscow on the 28th November a telegram accepting the Soviet terms for re-opening negotiations. The Chinese negotiators left Harbin on the 30th November for Habarovsk.
On the 28th November 12 bombs were dropped by Soviet aeroplanes on Pokotu Station. These attacks were continued on the 29th November.
In the reports on the military operations in Manchuria which I have received mention is made of heavy losses, but I have no figures of the casualties on either side, nor have I any confirmation of the Press reports of a massacre of Chinese miners at Chalainor.
I have received a resolution from the Welsh National Council of the League of Nations appealing for an early meeting of the Council of the League to deal with the Manchurian situation.
Is it not a fact that, although only one country has signed the Covenant of the League, there are provisions made in that Covenant by which steps can be taken in a case like this?
Yes. The statement which has been made by the right hon. Gentleman is strictly accurate, but we felt, and the other Powers felt, that is was very much better, in view of the fact that they were both members who had signed the Kellogg Pact, and that we should act more effectively in that way than by taking it to the League in the first instance.
Has the right hon. Gentleman received any notice from any other member of the Council that this matter is being raised at the Council of the League?
No notice has reached me to that effect.
Might I ask whether, as the right hon. Gentleman stated that a state of war does not exist between these two Powers—[ Interruption ]. Well, might I ask the right hon. Gentleman what advice he gives to those nationals of His Majesty's Government who may be doing business in China as to their legal position?
I think that is so important a question that it should be placed upon the Order Paper.
It is on the Paper. May I call the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to the last paragraph of my question No. 17?
I have answered the question as to whether a state of war exists, but not the second part of the supplementary question. That is the important part.
May we take it that it is not the intention of the Government to call the attention of the Council of the League to the matter?
Not at the moment, until we see whether the effort which is being made generally by the Powers who have signed the Kellogg Pact is sufficiently effective for the purpose.
Russia
British Relations
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs at what date an exchange of ambassadors between His Majesty's Government and the Soviet Government will take place?
I am not in a position to give the exact date, but I hope that both Ambassadors will proceed to their posts in the course of the next few days.
Has the right hon. Gentleman's attention been drawn to the arrest of—
Order!
That does not arise out of the question. I have already received a question to that effect and did not allow it to be put upon the Order Paper.
I understood that this question could be asked by way of a supplementary.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the delay in the exchange of Ambassadors is due to any fresh difficulties that have arisen since the discussion took place some weeks ago?
No, not at all. The hon. Member must be aware that there are a good many arrangements that have to be completed before Ambassadors under such conditions as exist, can be exchanged.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the arrangements include an expression by the Soviet Government that their understanding is the same as that of His Majesty's Government?
Answer!
That is going a long way beyond the question upon the Order Paper.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has received any communications from M. Dovgalevsky, or a representative of the Soviet Government, since the issue of the White Paper, Cmd. 3418; and, if so, whether he will state their nature?
No communication has been received by His Majesty's Government from Monsieur Dovgalevsky since the issue of the White Paper. The only communications received from the Soviet Government since that date have been transmitted to His Majesty's Gov- ernment through the good offices of the Norwegian Government, and have been of a routine nature relating to the arrangements for the exchange of diplomatic missions.
Why should it be necessary to go through the Norwegian Government?
The system of communicating through the Norwegian Government was established by my right hon. Friend the previous Secretary of State, and I hope presently to extend great thanks on behalf of His Majesty's Government for the magnificent work that they have done.
Is it still necessary?
Yes.
Can the right hon. Gentleman call the attention of the Soviet Government to the recent statement made by the Third Internationale?
rose —
Mr. Godfrey Locker-Lampson.
China (Extra-Territorial Rights)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Chinese Government have communicated their intention of denouncing on 1st January next the extra-territoriality clauses of the treaties with foreign Powers; and, if so, what action His Majesty's Government propose to take in the matter?
The Chinese Government have announced their intention to abolish extraterritoriality on the 1st January next. They are aware of our desire to enter into negotiations on the subject of extraterritoriality in a liberal and friendly spirit, and that His Majesty's Minister in Peking is endeavouring to initiate discussions. The Chinese Minister has been informed that the denunciation of the extraterritoriality clauses of the treaties would prejudice the prospect of a satisfactory issue. The Chinese Government will doubtless give weight to these considerations and I hope that, in the circumstances, they will not in fact carry their declared intention into execution.
Naval and Military Pensions and Grants
Surgical Appliances
asked the Minister of Pensions whether he can state the number of cases during the previous 12 months in which he was able to make grants for surgical appliances out of the voluntary funds at his disposal?
During the 12 months ended 31st October, 1929, 81 grants were made from the voluntary fund for the purchase of surgical appliances.
Can the hon. Gentleman say what the cost of the voluntary fund was, and does he not think that it should now be paid out of Government funds?
I have not the figures before me as to the cost. I should have to take the further point into consideration.
Seven Years' Limit (Abolition)
26 and 27.
asked the Minister of Pensions (1) on what basis pensions will be assessed in those cases where application is submitted more than seven years from first removal from duty and entitlement admitted by the Government; will pension or allowance be granted for any degree of disablement as laid down in the Royal Warrant, or is it proposed to grant pension only in those cases where there is substantial incapacity; and, in the event of an award being given under the scheme recently announced by the Government, will the men have the same right of appeal to a medical appeal board on the grounds of dissatisfaction or deterioration as those dealt with under seven years;
(2) whether he will inform the House of the position of the widow of a man who, at the date of his death, was in receipt of a pension or allowance under the Government scheme for dealing with over seven years' cases; whether such widow will have a statutory right to appeal against the rejection of her claim to the House of Lords Tribunal under Article 17B of the 1924 Warrant or whether the fact that the pension or allowance to the late husband was in the nature of a special sanction award, and not a warrant provision, will debar such widow from the right of appeal; and whether the provisions of Article 17A of the 1924 Warrant will also apply to such widows?
With the hon. and gallant Member's permission, I will answer at the same time both his questions, which raise issues touching the statement I made in the House on the 18th ultimo. With regard to the hon. and gallant Member's first question, no change is contemplated in the existing principles of compensation, which are proper to the special character of these belated claims. Where grounds for dissatisfaction with an award on the score of worsening are shown, they will be considered. With regard to the second question, arrangements are in operation enabling the widow of the pensioner in the case mentioned to apply for pension and to have her case considered under the like conditions to those embodied in Article 17A and B of the Royal Warrant, though, naturally, as the hon. and gallant Member has surmised, the particular form of appeal referred to will not be available.
Ranker Officers
asked the Minister of Pensions if he will consider the advisability of re-opening the question of pensions for pre-War pensioned ranker officers of the Army with a view to placing them on a more satisfactory basis?
I have been asked to reply. The question has been under review on many occasions, and was fully considered by a specially appointed Committee whose Report was accepted by the House in 1925. In these circumstances there are no grounds for re-opening this matter.
Navy Pensions
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if it is proposed in any way to alter or vary the scale of naval pensions as contained in Command Paper No. 149, of 1919; and if he is aware that, such pensions being insufficient to maintain the pensioned rating, such rating has to compete in the labour market for work to supplement such pension in order to maintain life?
There is no proposal under consideration to alter the scales of Navy Pensions, either in regard to present pensioners or to men now serving, and I am unable to recommend any increase on the grounds represented by the hon. Member.
Agriculture
Bread (British Wheat)
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he can state the reasons for the impracticability of the proposal to have a certain percentage of British wheat flour used in every British loaf, seeing that this is already being done in Germany?
As the reply is necessarily long, I propose, with the permission of the hon. and gallant Member, to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Although the answer may be long, would not the advantage thoroughly outweigh the disadvantage, to the benefit, not of agriculture, but of employment?
Perhaps the hon. and gallant Member will read my answer in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Is it a fact that a certain percentage of British flour is used in every German loaf?
Following is the reply:
I would explain that conditions in this country and in Germany are very different. In Germany the amount of the home crop of wheat represents, on average, about 60 per cent. of her requirements, whereas, in this country, the proportion is about 20 per cent. while, if allowance is made for that part of the home crop used for purposes other than milling, e.g., seed, poultry food, etc., the proportion of native wheat in the supplies of flour for all purposes is about 15 per cent.
It is clear, therefore, that the bulk of wheat flour in Germany must normally contain a substantial admixture of native wheat and that, consequently, insistence on a fixed proportion of such wheat, provided it is not too high, would not be likely to involve interference with the bread eating habits of the population or with the milling industry. In this country, on the other hand, where most of the flour used in bread-making contains little or no native wheat, the compulsory admixture of a fixed proportion of such wheat would act as a handicap on the milling and baking industries.
Moreover, in this country the supplies of native wheat are so small in proportion to the total supplies that the greatest difficulty would be experienced in fixing annually the proportion of native wheat to be used in the admixture at a level which would create an additional demand for native wheat sufficient to benefit farmers without, at the same time, enabling sellers to dictate prices. In Germany, on the other hand, there is less risk of this not only because the proportion of native wheat is so much higher, but also owing to the margin of safety provided by the fact that the population are accustomed to a higher rate of extraction of wheat in the flour and also to the use of rye and potato flour.
As I indicated a few days ago in my reply to a question by the hon. and gallant Member on the same subject, I hope that the object which he has in mind may be achieved voluntarily through the medium of the National Mark Flour Scheme. For this reason and also because of the considerations which I have mentioned, I am not prepared to adopt the proposal.
Imported Produce
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is aware that a large amount of the wheat which is being imported into this country from Germany is being produced as the result of the labour of women and girls who work for nine hours a day for 3d. per hour; and, seeing that this is not a fair remuneration, whether he will undertake to introduce legislation that will afford protection to the British agriculturist against such conditions of labour?
I have had inquiries made as to the agricultural wages paid in Germany, especially in East Prussia and Silesia, and I am informed that the pro- portion of the work of cultivation and harvesting which is undertaken by women and girls in the case of cereals is very small. The rate mentioned by the hon. and gallant Member for women and girls is approximately correct in regard to East Prussia and Silesia for permanent day workers, but qualification must be made in regard to overtime, payments in kind, and piece-work.
Will the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to reply to the last part of my question?
The Government are not contemplating legislation.
Are we to understand that the Socialist Government practise one thing and preach another?
Is it not a fact that there are thousands of small holdings in Germany where the families work for themselves and not for a "boss" class?
That is so.
Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the wages paid in Germany are inadequate, and will he take steps to protect the workers in this country?
In making inquiries into female labour, did the right hon. Gentleman ascertain the figure paid for male labour?
If the hon. Member will put down a question, I shall be glad to go into the matter.
Will the right hon. Gentleman also discover whether the wages were any higher when large quantities of grain were imported from Germany during the period of the last Government?
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he has consulted the Foreign Secretary and the President of the Board of Trade as to some steps to be taken to protect our producers against the unfair dumping of German oats; and whether he is now in a position to state the policy of the Government thereon?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. In reply to the last part, I can add nothing to the statements which my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade and I have made on this subject.
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether, as the German Government have given notice that they are increasing the subsidy on exported cereals from February next, he will say what is to be the amount of bounty for licences given; and whether he anticipates an increased amount of German oats imported on our markets next year?
asked the Minister of Agriculture if he has received any information as to the intentions of the German Government with regard to an increase in the export bounties on German wheat; what is the alteration proposed; and whether this charge will have any adverse effect on the agricultural interests of this country?
I understand the position to be that the German Government is not able to increase the rates at which import bonds are issued beyond the present level so long as the German Swedish Commercial Treaty remains in force. I have not, as yet, any official information that this Treaty will be terminated in February next.
Then I take it that what was stated in the Press last week was not true, and that we are not going to put up prices?
It is essentially a hypothetical question, because we have no information.
Government Proposals
34, 35 and 36.
asked the Minister of Agriculture (1) whether he classes arable farming in East Anglia among the depressed sections of agriculture; and, if so, what, if any, proposals he has made or intends to make to assist this section of the industry;
(2) what proposals he has made, or intends to make, to prevent the laying down to grass of land now growing cereals; and what plans he has for finding employment for the farm workers who will be thrown out of employment unless steps are taken to put the growing of corn on a profitable basis;
(3) whether he is aware that wheat-growing is an essential part of arable cultivation on the heavy lands in Suffolk; and what proposals he has made, or intends to make, to assist those who farm heavy lands to meet the competition of bounty-fed imports of wheat?
I recognise that a great part of the arable farming of Essex, Suffolk and Norfolk has been suffering for some years from depression; that wheat growing is generally held to be an essential part of arable cultivation on the heavy lands in Suffolk and that the laying down to grass is a feature of the depression. I may add that the hon. Member exaggerates the effect of the competition of continental wheat as compared with the competition of wheat from other parts of the world, notably, Argentina. I am not prepared to single out one part of the country for special treatment, but East Anglia will, I hope, benefit not least from the general measures of interest to agriculture referred to in the answer which I gave to the hon. Member for Gravesend on 25th November. I may remind the hon. Member that the severity of the depression has been mitigated to a very considerable extent by the sugar beet subsidy which was initiated by the Labour Government in 1924.
May I ask when the right hon. Gentleman proposes to expound to the House these general measures, useful and necessary to agriculture, to which he refers in his reply. When are we to have the advantage of knowing what these measures are?
Answer!
That question has been asked several times this Session.
Is it not about time that we had a definite answer?
On a point of Order.
Brigadier-General Clifton Brown.
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he will state the policy of the Government in regard to the stabilisation of prices by the collective purchase of imported grain and meat?
I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the reply which I gave to a question by the hon. Member for Ashford (Mr. Kedward) on 18th November, of which I am sending him a copy.
In view of the urgency and importance of this question, will the right hon. Gentleman publish a Memorandum or White Paper containing the views of the Government at the earliest possible moment?
I have nothing to add to the answer which I have already given.
61 and 63.
asked the Minister of Agriculture (1) whether he will state the policy of the Government in regard to the transference of land to public ownership;
(2) whether he will state the policy of the Government in regard to the establishment of security of tenure for efficient farmers?
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he will state the policy of the Government in regard to the provision of credit on easy terms?
The Government have no present intention of introducing legislation on these subjects.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say why his party promised to do so at the last General Election?
On a point of Order. The Minister of Agriculture has constantly referred in this House to the proposals of the Government with regard to agriculture, and this House knows nothing of them.
That point has already been put several times.
Will my right hon. Friend cause inquiries to be made, through the usual channels, of the Members below the Gangway opposite as to whether they will support the proposals for national ownership of the land?
With pleasure.
Half-Meat Cheese (Imports)
asked the Minister of Agriculture if he is now in a position to state the quantity of half-meat cheese imported into this country from Holland, as promised to a recent deputation by the Parliamentary Secretary?
Precise information as to imports of half-meat cheese of Cheshire type from Holland is not available, but I am sending the hon. Member a copy of the letter which, as promised, was addressed by my right hon. Friend, the Parliamentary Secretary, to several Members of this House with whom he discussed this matter recently.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Cheshire County Council very much disagreed with some of the points raised?
I am not aware of that fact.
Conference
SMITH asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he will arrange for the coming agricultural conference to give consideration to the benefits that have been conferred upon the farmers by the reduction of railway freights on farm produce, feeding stuffs, and fertilisers, with a view to a decision being reached as to whether the maximum is being done along these lines to assist the agricultural industry?
asked the Minister of Agriculture if, in the forthcoming discussions of the conference on agriculture, he will include in the agenda the subject of the alteration in modern times of the incidence of the tithe rent charge, owing to the great increase in the cost of production on agricultural land; and whether he will invite to the conference a representative of the tithe payers as such?
I propose, with the concurrence of the hon. Members, to answer this and question number 59 together. I would refer the hon. Members to the reply which I gave to a question by the hon. Member for Eye (Mr. Grenville) on the 28th November, of which I am sending them copies. I am not prepared to adopt the proposal in the last part of the question by the hon. Member for Ashford (Mr. Kedward).
Later —
On a point of Order. When was Question 59 answered? I see no other question on the Paper relating to tithe rent-charge.
That question was answered in conjunction with Question number 56.
But that has nothing about tithe rent-charge, and I cannot conceive that the answer should be the same to both questions.
The matter is to be referred to the proposed agricultural conference, and I thought that justified my taking them together.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the very grave unrest in agricultural areas over tithe rent-charge, and does he think it sufficient to cover it in a general way as he has done by linking it with another question?
Yes, I attempted to deal with that in the answer.
Argentine Cereals (Exports)
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he has any information showing whether bounties are paid in the Argentine Republic on cereals for export, or if an export duty is levied upon wheat, oats, and maize; and, if the latter be the case, what are the respective duties?
No bounty is paid on the export of cereals from the Argentine. There is a provision by which export duties are levied when the current prices, as determined monthly by a Committee, are in excess of certain fixed basic prices, the rate of duty being 12 per cent. on this excess. For the month of November no export duty was leviable on wheat or oats; on maize it was leviable at the rate of 84 cents gold per 1,000 kilogrammes.
Kew Gardens (Police Allowances)
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is aware that, since the abolition of the entrance fee to Kew Gardens, the constabulary are still performing gate duty, although losing in allowances 3s. 4d. per week; and whether, in view of the fact that, even despite the recent increase of 1s. a week, these men are now receiving less than before, he will restore the fee mentioned in respect of the gate work done?
As entrance fees are now payable on only two days instead of on seven days a week, there is no justification for payment of the normal gate money allowance except on those two days. I regret, therefore, that I do not see my way to give effect to the suggestion of the hon. Member. I might add that while the loss of allowance is 3s. 4d. per gate, it is not much more than 1s. per constable, and the constables generally are not receiving less pay now than they did before the abolition of entrance fees.
Fishing Industry
Weather Forecasts
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether in considering the recent disaster which involved loss of life and much damage to material of our fishing fleet, he will confer with the Air Minister to see whether the latest meteorological information with regard to the approach of bad weather from any quarter can be signalled by wireless to all fishing fleets at any time of the day or night?
I think the present arrangement under which gale warnings are broadcast at fixed times is preferable, as it enables skippers who have receiving sets to listen in at the right moment. It is as a rule impracticable to provide for continuous listening in on fishing vessels, as they have a very limited personnel.
Is not my right hon. Friend aware that at present these warnings are given at a time which is inconvenient to skippers; they have usually already gone to sea?
I will certainly take notice of that point.
Is it not true that some of these unfortunate boats received storm warnings and disregard them?
I have not heard that.
Will the right hon. Gentleman arrange that the gales take place at times convenient to the skippers?
Shame!
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to inquire whether there is not a little danger owing to the change of time of these warnings, and whether it would not be advisable to have one fixed time, whatever may be the programme at the time, so that there will be one standard time for these warnings?
The Fishery Department will consult the fishermen concerned and will certainly try and meet their convenience.
Trawling (International Conference)
asked the Prime Minister whether he has considered the proposal of His Majesty's Government of the Dominion of Canada to invite certain foreign countries to participate in an international conference on trawling and the manner of regulating it; and whether he views the proposal favourably?
His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom have received no communication from His Majesty's Government in Canada on the subject.
May I be allowed to repeat this question in a fortnight's time?
indicated assent.
Shell Fisheries
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he proposes to consider the reviving and restocking of the shell fisheries in suitable areas as a means of creating employment; and whether he received any Report from the Conway Research Station?
In regard to the results of experiments in oyster breeding conducted at Conway, I have nothing to add to the answer given to the hon. Member on 25th November. I am, however, considering with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health proposals for the establishment of mussel cleansing tanks, on the model of those in use at Conway, in certain mussel fishing areas at present closed on public health grounds. With regard to the second part of the question, a comprehensive and most valuable report on the cleansing of polluted mussels was published in the first week of this year. The hon. Member will find reports on all the activities of the Conway station from year to year in the annual reports of my Department on Sea Fisheries. I am fully informed of the work of that station, which I recently visited in order to study it more closely.
Will the right hon. Gentleman refer this matter to the Lord Privy Seal in view of the suggestion that these fisheries might provide a source of fresh employment?
If the hon. Gentleman has any proposals which bear directly on the question of employment, I hope he will give details of them.
I have been giving details for the last three months.
Common Land (Regulations)
asked the Minister of Agriculture if he will state what steps have been taken, or are proposed to be taken, to give effect to the recommendations of the Select Committee on Commons which in 1913 unanimously reported to the House in favour of the introduction of a Bill to facilitate the regulation by local authorities of common lands?
I am afraid that I can hold out no hope of introducing early legislation in regard to this matter.
If the right hon. Gentleman receives applications from local authorities in connection with this matter, will he give favourable consideration to them?
Certainly.
Coal Industry
Coal Mines Bill
asked the Prime Minister whether he proposes to ask the House to pass any of the stages of the Bill for the reduction of working hours in mines before the Christmas Recess?
I hope that a Bill will be introduced during this week to deal with this and other important matters affecting the re-organisation of the coal mining industry, and we shall ask the House to proceed with this Bill as rapidly as circumstances permit.
Foreign Competition
asked the Secretary for Mines whether, in view of the readiness of foreign coal producers to export to this country whenever there is any interference with the coal market, he will bear in mind, in connection with any legislation raising the price of home coal, the certainty of competitive imports from abroad; and whether any precautionary measures are contemplated?
The point to which the hon. Member calls attention is obviously one which those responsible for the conduct of the coal industry in this country must always have in mind in connection with the administration of marketing schemes.
Do not the Government propose to do anything to assist the home producers?
That does not arise out of the question.
Accidents
asked the Secretary for Mines whether, in view of the recent mine disasters, His Majesty's Government will set up a committee to inquire into mine accidents and measures of prevention?
I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given to a question by my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol North (Mr. Ayles) on the 18th July last, of which I am sending him a copy. The problem is a many-sided one, and different aspects of it are already the subject of inquiry by committees of experts and in other ways. As further inquiries on the prevention of particular classes of accident prove to be necessary, they will be undertaken. I believe that, by specialisation in these ways, we are getting more thorough and useful inquiries than it would be possible to get by charging a single committee with the investigation of the whole of the complicated and difficult questions involved.
Have all the recommendations of the previous committees of inquiry been carried out?
I must have notice of that question.
London Naval Conference
asked the Prime Minister whether he can now give the names of the delegates who will represent the British Empire at the London Naval Conference and the names of the naval advisers who will assist them on technical matters?
Our own delegates will be myself, the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, the First Lord of the Admiralty and the Secretary of State for India. His Majesty's Governments in Canada, the Commonwealth of Australia, New Zealand, the Union of South Africa and the Irish Free State, and the Government of India have been invited to nominate delegates, but I am not yet in a position to make any statement as to the names. I am not yet in a position to give the names of the naval advisers, but these will include the Chief and Deputy Chief of the Naval Staff. Perhaps the House will permit me to add that His Majesty the King has given his gracious permission for the use of the Royal Gallery at the Palace of Westminster for the opening plenary meeting, and of St. James's Palace for subsequent meetings of the Conference.
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the savings that would result from a drastic reduction in the tonnage of capital ships by international agreement, he can state if this matter will form the subject of discussion at the forthcoming Five-Power Naval Conference?
In the invitation addressed to the four Naval Powers to participate in the London Naval Conference, His Majesty's Government stated that they thought it desirable to reconsider the battleship replacement programmes provided for in the Washington Treaty of 1922. The text of the Note conveying this invitation was published in the Press on the 9th October. Pending the meeting of the Naval Conference I do not consider that it is desirable to elaborate the reference to this subject in our Note of 7th October.
Will the right hon. Gentleman take into consideration that the Governments of all the other four Powers have declared themselves in favour of such drastic reduction?
I shall be very much interested to hear that when we meet.
Is the date definitely fixed?
Yes, the 21st.
asked the Prime Minister whether he is in a position to announce the agenda of the forthcoming Five-Power Naval Conference; and, if not, when he will be able to do so?
There will be only one subject on the agenda of the Naval Conference, namely, how best the five Powers represented at the Conference can agree upon the reduction and limitation of war vessels on the basis of mutually accepted strength. The question of the procedure to be adopted at the Conference is a matter for discussion with the Governments of the countries concerned and for decision by the Conference itself, and I doubt whether there will be any information on this particular point which I can usefully give the House before the Conference assembles.
Do I understand that there is no limit laid down as to the lengths to which the Conference can go in any direction?
Not within the limits of the answer which I read out.
Unemployment
Work Schemes
asked the Prime Minister if it is the policy of the Government to welcome any definite plans or schemes for dealing with unemployment submitted from any quarter of the House in order that their merits may be subjected to critical examination; and if the Government has at any time refused to consider any definite scheme or plan submitted on behalf of any political party?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative and to the second part in the negative.
In view of the nature of that reply, may I ask, does not the Prime Minister think that the suggestions made in some quarters as to the necessity of an all-party committee or conference have not any foundation?
Are we mistaken in thinking that the Government have a remedy for unemployment?
Is it not the case that the Labour party has submitted to this Government a method of handling the unemployment situation by increasing the purchasing power of the unemployed, and that this Government refuse to carry it out?
Telephone Development
asked the Postmaster-General how many additional men and women will be employed upon the £750,000 programme of special telephone development?
It is estimated that the programme will employ about 2,200 men and women for 12 months.
Is it not a fact that speeding up this programme will cost a great deal more money?
No. The estimate that we have made shows that it will not cost another shilling.
Is this an isolated programme, or will it be possible at the end of the 12 months to continue this more rapid rate of development of the telephone service?
Yes, I hope to be able to announce a corresponding acceleration of programme for next year.
Relief Works, Ramsgate
asked the Lord Privy Seal whether he has been asked by the Ramsgate local authorities to consider or discuss the possibility of the granting of Government assistance for local unemployed relief works; and, if so, what steps does he propose to take in this matter?
I understand that representatives of the Ramsgate Town Council had a recent discussion with an officer of the Unemployment Grants Committee regarding proposed relief works. As a result, the council have been invited by the committee to submit applications for a grant for schemes involving the employment of local labour.
Ministers of State (Salaries)
asked the Prime Minister whether he will consider extending the terms of reference of the committee he proposes to set up to inquire into Ministerial salaries so that the question of salaries of Members of Parliament may also be inquired into?
I think that that would widen the scope of the inquiry more than was intended.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that the considerations which apply to the inquiry regarding Ministers' salaries, also apply to the salaries of Members?
Does the Prime Minister think it fair that a Front Bencher should have more than 12 times as much as a back-bencher?
Is it not thought by the Prime Minister, or whoever else is going to deal with this matter, that there is plenty of time to consider whether or not they are going to separate salaries from expenses; and is it not desirable to prevent the idea getting abroad that it is easier to get money for increasing the salaries of Ministers than it is to get money for the unemployed people, because that impression is getting abroad?
asked the Prime Minister, in view of the decision to appoint a committee to inquire into Ministerial salaries, taking as their starting point the recommendations of the Committee of 1920, that salaries of the Cabinet, with the exception of the Prime Minister, are to be £5,000 a year, whether the Committee will be instructed to inquire into the increased size of modern Cabinets to a maximum of 23 Members, with a view to limiting the number to five or six Members?
No, Sir. I do not think that it was intended by the House that the Committee should be empowered to consider the size of Cabinets.
If the salaries are increased will it not be even more important to limit the number of Cabinet Ministers than the number of Undersecretaries?
I hope the House will be under no misapprehension. It is not at all settled that the question as to whether a Minister is a Cabinet Minister or not is, of necessity, to determine the salary.
Will the Prime Minister give the House the names of this Committee?
It is not set up yet.
Will the terms of reference include consideration, not only of Ministers' salaries, but the possibility of entertainment allowance with, or in lieu of, salary?
As a matter of fact, we have not yet decided through the usual way what-precisely the terms of reference are to be, but I do hope that the reference will enable the committee to take all these germane points into consideration.
When does the right hon. Gentleman think he will be in a position to announce the composition of the committee and the terms of reference? Will it be in the near future?
It is in hand just now. I hope in the course of a day or two.
Electoral Law (Conference)
asked the Prime Minister the names of the Members of the Committee on Electoral Reform; the terms of reference of such committee; and whether it is proposed to indicate to the Committee the order in which and the time within which it is desirable that they should take into consideration and report on the various matters submitted to them?
As the answer to the first part of the question is long, I will, with the hon. and gallant Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT. I understand that the first meeting will be held next Wednesday. It will be for the Conference to determine the subjects which they will consider in the light of the suggestions made by the Parties, and the order in which they will be taken.
Can the right hon. Gentleman give us the names of the Committee?
As a matter of fact, they have been published—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—and they are rather long, but, if the House desires it, I shall read them. I was thinking of other Questions. The names are:
With reference to the names which the Prime Minister has read out, I am rather surprised to find the name of a Judge of the High Court nominated on a, party panel. I object very strongly to this, and I desire to raise it, when a convenient opportunity occurs.
How is it proposed that the Lord Chief Justice should carry on his duties properly and serve on a committee of this kind representative of the different political parties?
Land Acquisition (Untied Cottages)
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he will state the policy of the Government in regard to the provision of facilities for the acquisition of land and of an adequate supply of untied cottages?
I have been asked to reply. It is the policy of the Government to facilitate the acquisition of land for public purposes and to encourage the adequate provision of untied cottages.
Does the hon. Lady intend to introduce legislation on the subject?
I must refer the Noble Lord to the proposals outlined in the Gracious Speech, to which I have nothing to add at present.
Can the hon. Lady say when the Bill is going to be introduced?
When the Post Office is sold!
Earl Haig Memorial Statue
asked the First Commissioner of Works whether the expenditure incurred to date on the Haig memorial statue is in excess of the original estimate of expenditure on the selection and preparation of preliminary models; and what changes have been recommended by the assessors in the model that was accepted by them?
The expenditure incurred to date exceeds the original estimate of expenditure on the selection and preparation of preliminary models by £500, the amount the Department has agreed to pay the sculptor for the second and larger model; the assessors have recommended that the base of the original design should be redesigned and that modifications should be made in the equestrian group with the view of meeting certain criticisms which have been made.
In view of the fact that the chosen artist has obviously misconceived the late Lord Haig's character, and in view of the fact that Lady Haig and the family and the ex-Service men who served under Lord Haig do not approve of this model, may not the Government be asked to cut their loss and to ask for fresh tenders?
The hon. and gallant Member is evidently making a speech.
Hyde Park
asked the First Commissioner of Works whether he proposes erecting a pavilion and making a putting green in Hyde Park; and whether it is proposed to make any fixed charge for the use of this green?
The reply to both parts of the question is in the affirmative.
Will my right hon. Friend say when he hopes it will be in being, and whether it will be open to all the public?
All the public will be allowed to use it, in rotation. I hope the green will be ready in the spring.
Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the last part of the question, to which he has not referred at all?
If the hon. Member will look at the answer, he will see that I answered both parts of the question in the affirmative.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say if this is the only solution of the unemployment problem?
It will keep them out of further mischief if the unemployed use the greens.
Are they going to have open boats and round-abouts?
Clerkenwell County Court
asked the First Commissioner of Works how long the Clerkenwell County Court in Duncan Terrace has been closed for business; when work on this building will commence; and when will it be completed?
The Clerkenwell County Court in Duncan Terrace has been closed for business since 29th December, 1928. Work on this building will be commenced early in February next and should be completed about June, 1931.
Why not do it at once? Surely the Department has had enough time for meditation?
As I informed the hon. and gallant Gentleman the other night, the delay in starting work on the building is due to extensive revision of the original plan of alterations to meet the requirements of the Judge and the Registrar of the court.
Houses of Parliament (Visitors)
asked the First Commissioner of Works whether he is considering the establishment of official guides to show visitors over the Houses of Parliament?
No, Sir.
Post Office
Parcels Delivery, Macclesfield
asked the Postmaster-General if his attention has been called to the complaint by Hovis, Limited, Macclesfield, as to the delay in delivering parcels; if he is aware that parcels from the Co-operative Society, Limited, Bangor; Pinxton, near Nottingham; Carnforth; Rhyi; Welshpool, Montgomeryshire; Langley Mill and Aldcar Co-operative Society, Eastwood, Notts; Colwyn Bay; Chester; St. Martin's Co-operative Society, near Oswestry; Oswestry; and Buckley, posted on the 19th instant, were not delivered to their Trafford Park Mill, Manchester, until 2.45 p.m. on Thursday the 21st instant; that as a result of this late delivery the parcels in question were too late; and if he will take steps to see that this delay does not occur in future?
The parcels in question appear to have been delayed at the Manchester parcel post depot in consequence of a misunderstanding of certain special instructions given by Messrs. Hovis. I much regret the inconvenience occasioned and have taken the necessary steps to prevent a similar occurrence in future.
Savings Bank Department (Women)
asked the Postmaster-General whether there has been a reduction in the number of women required in the Savings Bank Department owing to the introduction of machines?
Yes, Sir. The introduction of posting and addressing machines has led to a reduction in the women's establishment spread over the last four years.
Automatic Stamp Machines
asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware of the difficulty of procuring postage stamps in many isolated country districts; and whether he will arrange for automatic stamp machines to be placed in the vicinity of collecting boxes at suitable spots?
The supply of automatic stamp machines is at present limited, but the suggestion made in the latter part of the hon. Member's question will not he overlooked.
Bermuda Dockyard
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether it is intended to make any reductions in the dockyard establishment at Bermuda; and what the nature of these reductions is to be?
I regret that I have nothing to add to the answer given to the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) on the 10th July last (OFFICIAL REPORT, Columns 857–8), as the necessary investigations are not yet concluded.
Can the hon. Gentleman indicate when he will be likely to be able to make an announcement, and will it be before Christmas?
We are trying to arrive at a decision as rapidly as possible; I cannot give a date.
Palestine
Wailing Wall, Jerusalem
asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, seeing that the Permanent Mandates Commission of the League of Nations have refused to investigate the dispute concerning the Wailing Wall, as it is not in accordance with Article 14 of the Palestine Mandate, which provides for a commission to settle the whole question of the holy places, he will, until this matter is settled, adhere to the status quo as laid down in the White Paper of October, 1928?
I have been asked to answer this question. The hon. and gallant Member is under a misapprehension. The Permanent Mandates Commission have made a report to the Council of the League on the proposal submitted by His Majesty's Government with a view to securing a final settlement of the Wailing Wall question. As regard the status quo, I would invite reference to the reply given to the hon. and gallant Member on the 13th of November.
Will the hon. Member agree to keep the status quo until this matter is definitely settled?
I will convey that suggestion to my right hon. Friend.
Agricultural Bank
asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that the Agricultural Bank in Palestine, whose capital was raised by a tax on Arab peasant farmers and which helped them with loans in bad seasons and for the purpose of buying agricultural machinery, has been abolished by the Palestine Government; and whether he can give the reason for so doing, as the Arabs have thereby become so impoverished that they are compelled to sell their land to the Jews at a very low price?
I understand that Palestine branches of the Ottoman Agriculture Bank were liquidated in 1921. At the time of the British occupation the affairs of these branches were found to be in a very involved condition, and when our military authorities took over the administration, it was found necessary to make loans to cultivators from other sources. An arrangement was accordingly made with another bank to supply funds, and this arrangement was continued under the civil administration, the amount so provided in 1919–1923 being the equivalent of over half a million pounds. In addition to these loans, other loans to cultivators in areas specially affected by bad seasons were made in 1927 and 1928. The Secretary of State is not aware of any general impoverishment which has compelled the sale of land at unreasonably low prices.
Hong Kong (Orphanages)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies the number of orphanages in Hong Kong; the total accommodation available; how many, if any, child slaves have been removed from undesirable residences and placed in charge of such orphanages; and whether there is in contemplation any extension of the accommodation in these orphanages?
I have been asked to answer this question. My hon. Friend cannot be supplied with precise information without reference to the Governor. The recognised refuge for girls temporarily in need of protection is the Po Leung Kuk which can accommodate up to 70 persons. Last year it admitted 34 maidservants or mui tsai who had left their place of employment. I understand that orphanages and convents also will accept a limited number of such girls if vacancies exist. The Secretary of State certainly contemplates the provision of additional accommodation if it is found to be necessary.
Social Services (Rural Districts)
asked the Minister of Health whether he will state the policy of the Government in regard to the improvement of the services of health, housing and education in rural districts?
The Government hope to do better than their predecessors, but the hon. and gallant Member will not expect an indication of detailed proposals in a statement at question time.
Will the hon. Lady consider that it might be to the advantage of all of us if she issued a White Paper on the subject?
Does the hon. Lady realise that there will be great dissatisfaction in the country if she does not aim at a higher standard than that of her predecessors?
London Traffic
Government Policy
( by Private Notice ) asked the Minister of Transport whether he is now in a position to make any statement as to the Government's policy on the London traffic question.
With the leave of the House, I will make a statement which the Prime Minister has authorised.
The Government have now examined the London traffic situation. We agree with the opinions expressed by the London and Home Counties Traffic Advisory Committee that no lasting solution of the dual problem of the congestion of the streets and the provision of proper facilities for the travelling public will be found unless further steps are taken towards eliminating uneconomic and unnecessary competition.
We also agree generally with the Committee that a far-reaching measure of unification under public control is essential to progress and that on the other hand "given unified management, and efficient operation of the various passenger transport agencies in the London traffic area, there is little doubt that the consequent elimination of the present wasteful competition would result in sufficient revenue being obtained from the operation of the several undertakings at the present level of fares as to leave, after meeting all legitimate claims and obligations, a margin available to attract fresh capital sufficient to provide for a programme of steady and continuous development of the traffic facilities of the area."
The object, then, must be to bring about, so far as possible, a coordinated system of passenger transport so managed that earnings shall be sufficient to meet all proper charges, including reasonable remuneration of capital.
We have given the closest attention to the form which the pooling of resources and co-ordination of management thus indicated should take, and we have come to the conclusion that the ends in view can be fully achieved and that the public interest can be fully safeguarded only if existing sectional financial interests are consolidated by the substitution of a single and simple form of public ownership for the complicated network of separate interests, private and municipal, which now add so greatly to the difficulties of the situation.
We shall, therefore, proceed at once to explore with all the interests concerned, and with the assistance of an eminent chartered accountant, a plan for the complete consolidation upon fair and equitable terms of the passenger transport agencies now providing services by omnibus, by tramway or by local railways in the London traffic area. We hold that in any such scheme all the existing municipal interests should be included from the start. The relations to be established between the consolidated enterprise and the amalgamated railways is an important point which merits and will receive careful consideration.
While the Government have decided that the principle of public ownership should be applied, they desire to make it clear that their intention and aim will be to assert and effectively to provide for the principle of commercial management of a self-supporting, consolidated transport system, thus ensuring the advantages of vigorous business enterprise. We take the view that with efficient management the potential earnings of London passenger traffic, fully coordinated as we propose, are such that no form of liability need be entailed upon public funds or public credit, and upon that assumption we shall proceed.
In conclusion, I would add that in view of the intricacy of the matters to be pursued no further statement is to be expected for some time.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether that very long statement does not mean that the Government have destroyed the only practical Bill, and are now giving us a lecture in its place?
The statement which I have made to the House means that the Bills which were before the House were, in the opinion of the Government, not a solution which was adequate or in the public interests. The responsibility for providing an alternative scheme then fell upon the Government, and we accepted that responsibility, and this is the basis and these are the principles upon which we shall proceed.
May I ask whether, in his future consideration of the solution of the traffic problem, the hon. Gentleman will include at least some consideration of the possibilities of the River Thames? I represent a constituency— [HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"] I desire to ask the Minister whether, in that connection, he will link up the outer parts of London from Gravesend to Kew as part of an all-embracing service?
All relevant considerations will be taken into account.
Does not the answer which has been given mean that it is proposed to set up a new form of traffic trust, in which the municipal tramways will be handed over to that trust, away from municipal control?
I do not think the answer I have given bears that interpretation, but I cannot at this stage go into further detail.
Have the Government considered the advisability of constructing underground tubes right down to Rotherhithe?
rose —
We cannot discuss this subject now.
Privy Council Appeals (Irish Free State)
On a point of Order. I rise to ask a question with reference to the observations which you, Sir, made on a point of Order arising at Question Time last Monday. May I ask you whether you can now give your considered Ruling as to the right of Members of this House to question Ministers, or to take other appropriate Parliamentary action, in regard to matters arising in a Dominion Parliament if those matters directly affect this country, and, in particular, arise out of and concern the execution of the Act 12 George V giving the force of law to "certain Articles of Agreement for a Treaty between Great Britain and Ireland."
Perhaps it would be better that, in replying to the right hon. Gentleman, I should amplify what I said the other day in giving a Ruling as to Questions to Ministers on that subject. It is a well-established practice that Questions cannot be asked of Ministers with regard to matters which have been delegated to other bodies, whether those bodies be Parliaments of Dominions or Legislative Assemblies in Colonies, nor would it seem in order to debate the manner in which these bodies exercise their powers except on a Bill or Motion which dealt with the extension or diminution of such powers, or in some other way with their control. But it appears to me that a totally different set of circumstances arise when action is taken by such a body as that to which I have referred or a declaration is made toy a Minister of a Dominion or Colony which is outside the scope of delegated powers and affects the interests of this country, or which affects the contractual relations between the Dominion or Colony and this country. I certainly should not and shall not rule such a question out of order. Also, I shall not rule that such a declaration of policy shall not be the subject of Debate in this House—that is to say, if a suitable opportunity can be found—but of course on such an occasion the Debate would be subject to the limitation attaching to that form of debate.
May I ask whether in a case of such importance as this the best and the correct way is for the leaders of the respective Oppositions to ask for time for the discussion of these matters, instead of asking questions on the Floor of this House?
I shall give a ruling upon that when the occasion arises.
Business of the House
May I ask the Prime Minister whether he proposes to keep us up late to-night?
That does not exactly lie with me. What I propose to do, after a very careful examination of the Order Paper, is to ask the Committee to get as far as the end of Clause 3. I am proposing to suspend the eleven o'clock Rule. I have very carefully examined the position, and I think that should not entail sitting late.
Motion made, and Question put,
"That the Proceedings in Committee on the Unemployment Insurance (No. 2) Bill and the Proceedings on the Report of Supply [28th November] be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[ The Prime Minister. ]
The House divided: Ayes, 236; Noes, 150.
Division No. 61.] AYES. [4.9 p.m. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Duncan, Charles Isaacs, George Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Ede, James Chuter John, William (Rhondda, West) Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Edmunds, J. E. Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne) Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro') Edwards, E. (Morpeth) Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Alpass, J. H. Egan, W. H. Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Ammon, Charles George Elmley, Viscount Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. Angell, Norman Foot, Isaac Kedward, R. M. (Kent, Ashford) Arnott, John Freeman, Peter Kelly, W. T. Aske, Sir Robert Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) Kennedy, Thomas Attlee, Clement Richard George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd (Car'vn) Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Ayles, Walter George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) Kinley, J. Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Gill, T. H. Kirkwood, D. Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley) Gillett, George M. Knight, Holford Barnes, Alfred John Glassey, A. E. Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton) Beckett, John (Camberwell, Peckham) Gosling, Harry Lang, Gordon Bellamy, Albert Gossling, A. G. Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood Gould, F. Lathan, G. Bennett, Captain E. N.(Cardiff, Central) Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Law, Albert (Bolton) Bennett, William (Battersea, South) Granville, E. Law, A. (Rosendale) Benson, G. Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne) Lawrence, Susan Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Lawson, John James Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.) Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle) Bowen, J. W. Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Leach, W. Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Groves, Thomas E. Lees, J. Broad, Francis Alfred Grundy, Thomas W. Lloyd, C. Ellis Brockway, A. Fenner Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Lovat-Fraser, J. A. Bromley, J. Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Lowth, Thomas Brooke, W. Hall, Capt. W. P. (Portsmouth, C.) Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) Brown, Ernest (Leith) Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn) MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham) Brown, W. J. (Wolverhampton, West) Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Zetland) McElwee, A. Buchanan, G. Hardie, George D. McEntee, V. L. Burgess, F. G. Harris, Percy A. Mackinder, W. Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland) Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon MacLaren, Andrew Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel (Norfolk, N.) Hastings, Dr. Somerville Maclean, Sir Donald (Cornwall, N.) Caine, Derwent Hall- Haycock, A. W. MacNeill-Weir, L. Cameron, A. G. Hayday, Arthur McShane, John James Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.) Hayes, John Henry Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Charleton, H. C. Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) March, S. Chater, Daniel Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) Markham, S. F. Cluse, W. S. Herriotts, J. Marley, J. Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth) Mathers, George Cocks, Frederick Seymour Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Matters, L. W. Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) Hoffman, P. C. Maxton, James Cove, William G. Hopkin, Daniel Millar, J. D. Daggar, George Hore-Belisha, Leslie Mills, J. E. Dallas, George Horrabin, J. F. Morgan, Dr. H. B. Day, Harry Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) Morley, Ralph Devlin, Joseph Hunter, Dr. Joseph Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh) Dickson, T. Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R. Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South).
Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.) Salter, Dr. Alfred Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Mort, D. L. Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen) Thurtle, Ernest Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent) Sanders, W. S. Tillett, Ben Mosley, Sir Oswald (Smethwick) Sandham, E Tinker, John Joseph Muff, G. Sawyer, G. F. Townend, A. E. Nathan, Major H. L. Scurr, John Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Naylor, T. E. Shakespeare, Geoffrey H. Turner, B. Noel Baker, P. J. Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Vaughan, D. J. Oldfield, J. R. Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Viant, S. P. Owen. H. F. (Hereford) Sherwood, G. H. Wallace, H. W. Palin, John Henry Shield, George William Wallhead, Richard C. Palmer, E. T. Shillaker, J. F. Watkins, F. C. Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Shinwell, E. Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah Perry, S. F. Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Wellock, Wilfred Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Sinclair, Sir A. (Caithness) West, F. R. Phillips, Dr. Marion Smith, Alfred (Sunderland) Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. Picton-Turbervill, Edith Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) White, H. G. Pole, Major D. G. Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood) Potts, John S. Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Whiteley, William (Blaydon) Price, M. P. Smith, Tom (Pontefract) Wilkinson, Ellen C. Ramsay, T. B. Wilson Smith, W. R. (Norwich) Williams, David (Swansea, East) Raynes, W. R. Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Snowden, Thomas (Accrington) Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Riley, Ben (Dewsbury) Sorensen, R. Wilson, J. (Oldham) Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees) Spero, Dr. G. E. Winterton, G. E. (Leicester, Loughb'gh) Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) Stamford, Thomas W. Wise, E. F. Romeril, H. G. Stephen, Campbell Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff) Rosbotham, D. S. T. Strachey, E. J. St. Loe Rothschild, J. de Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Rowson, Guy Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S. W.) Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby) Paling. NOES. Albery, Irving James Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Nicholson, O. (Westminster) Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l., W.) Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. O'Neill, Sir H. Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Ganzoni, Sir John Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William Astor, Viscountess Glyn, Major R. G. C. Peake, Capt. Osbert Atholl, Duchess of Gower, Sir Robert Penny, Sir George Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley) Grace, John Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Balfour, George (Hampstead) Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Power, Sir John Cecil Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet) Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Pownall, Sir Assheton Balniel, Lord Gunston, Captain D. W. Ramsbotham, H. Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. Remer, John R. Bellairs, Commander Carlyon Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Rentoul, Sir Gervais S. Berry, Sir George Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford) Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman Hammersley, S. S. Ross, Major Ronald D. Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Hanbury, C. Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Boyce, H. L. Hartington, Marquess of Salmon, Major I. Bracken, B. Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Herbert, S.(York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by) Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart Buckingham, Sir H. Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller Sassoon. Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D. Bullock, Captain Malcolm Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Savery, S. S. Burton, Colonel H. W. Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down) Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) Carver, Major W. H. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Castle Stewart, Earl of Hurd, Percy A. Smith Carington, Neville W. Cautley, Sir Henry S. Hurst, Sir Gerald B. Smithers, Waldron Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Kindersley, Major G. M. Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East) Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton King, Commodore Rt. Hon. Henry D. Southby, Commander A. R. J. Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.) Knox, Sir Alfred Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland) Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N.(Edgbaston) Lamb, Sir J. Q. Stuart, J. C. (Moray and Nairn) Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F. Cohen, Major J. Brunei Leighton, Major B. E. P. Tinne, J. A. Colman, N. C. D. Lewis, Oswald (Colchester) Todd, Capt. A. J. Colville, Major D. J. Llewellin, Major J. J. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Cranbourne, Viscount Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey Turton, Robert Hugh Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Locker-Lampson, Com. O.(Handsw'th) Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West) Long, Major Eric Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Wardlaw-Milne, J. S. Crichton-Stuart, Lord C. Macquisten, F. A. Warrender, Sir Victor Dairymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) Waterhouse, Captain Charles Davies, Dr. Vernon Makins, Brigadier-General E. Wayland, Sir William A. Dawson, Sir Philip Margesson, Captain H. D. Wells, Sydney R. Duckworth. G. A. V. Marjoribanks, E. C. Winterton. Rt. Hon. Earl Dugdale, Capt. T. L. Meller, R. J. Withers, Sir John James Eden, Captain Anthony Mitchell. Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount Elliot. Major Walter E. Mitchell-Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Womersley, W. J. Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-S.-M.) Mond, Hon. Henry Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley Fade, Sir Bertram G. Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton Ferguson, Sir John Moore, Sir Newton J. (Richmond) Fison, F. G. Clavering Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Ford, Sir P. J. Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester) Sir Frederick Thomson and Captain Wallace.
Electoral Law (Conference)
I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a matter of urgent public importance, namely,
"the nomination of a Judge of the High Court to serve as a member of a party panel on the Conference of Parties on Electoral Reform."
May I submit that the Motion fails as the word "definite" is not included in it? It is not a definite matter.
I think "definite" was intended to be included in it. My Ruling with reference to this Motion, which has been moved by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bewdley (Mr. S. Baldwin), will be affected by the question of whether the Government have any direct responsibility in this matter.
I meant to ask you about that, Mr. Speaker. I wanted to inform you how the Committee was set up. An agreement was come to between the Leaders of the three parties that in the setting up of this Committee there should be a party representation—
Hear, hear!
—of eight, I think—was it seven or eight?
Seven.
of seven in the House of Commons and one in the House of Lords for each of the two larger parties, and of four and one for the Liberal party; that the nominations should not concern the Government at all, but that each of the three parties should make their own nominations; and, indeed, until the list was handed to me by Lord Ullswater, I did not know who had been nominated by either of the other parties. It was further agreed that in making our nominations we should, both as respects the House of Commons and the other place, nominate more names than we had agreed should serve, so that Lord Ullswater should have not exactly our nominations but a sort of panel and that from the panel submitted by the three parties Lord Ullswater should select 7, 7, and 4, and then one for each of us from a nomination which I certainly understood regarding the other place should be more numerous than one. That was the situation, and I think that is all I need tell you which is essential.
Was it more than one?
As the right hon. Gentleman knows, anyone who stands at this Box has a sort of double personality: he has a private and an official knowledge. All I say is, I have heard that in one case the nomination was not in excess of the choice and, to that extent, it certainly was not in accordance with what I have always regarded as a sort of private agreement between the three of us. I never saw the list; I did not hand the list to Lord Ullswater. The only names that came through my hands to Lord Ullswater were the names nominated by us. [HON. MEMBERS: "Who is responsible?"] According to the agreement the responsibility was to be upon the three parties. It was to be a Speaker's conference on the model of the old Speaker's conference, Lord Ullswater selecting from the panel the 7, 7, and 4 and the 1, 1, 1, who were to sit with him and consult with him, and the Report was to be handed to me by Lord Ullswater.
Perhaps in the momentary absence of my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) I might explain that the nomination of the Lord Chief Justice was submitted by my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs—he was the only peer nominated on our behalf—together with several Members of the House of Commons. It was considered that this conference which was to be presided over by an ex-Speaker of the House of Commons, was not, so to speak, a partisan conference, but was to be regarded really as a non-party conference, which was to endeavour to arrive at a general agreement on a great constitutional and national question. The fact that the late Speaker of the House of Commons was in the Chair was an indication of that circumstance, as indeed was the case when Mr. Lowther presided over a similar conference 10 years ago. For that reason it was felt not inappropriate that a great constitutional legal authority should serve on the Committee, and it was considered that he would render very useful service in that capacity. But I am quite sure that neither my right hon. Friend nor any of us on these benches would desire to take any course that was not generally acceptable, and certainly I should not like to make any statement without consulting my right hon. Friend. I do not know whether it would be possible to postpone this Motion until tomorrow without prejudice, in the hope that in the meantime some arrangement might be reached.
I do not wish to detain the House at all, but I do want to say this. I want to know what redress we have. We have objected very strongly to this appointment and we have objected privately, but nothing has come from it, and I thought it was essential that the House of Commons should express its opinion as to an appointment of this nature. I am not at all disposed to postpone asking you for your judgment on the question, but if you would allow me to raise it tomorrow, to give the right hon. Gentle man time to consult his right hon. Friend, and if I do not lose any rights that I might have now, I should be willing to do so. But I am in a difficulty because such representations as I have made on behalf of my party, have failed so far, and I think it is a matter about which this House ought to express an opinion.
If this question be postponed till to-morrow, does it not, under the rulings you have given in the past, cease to be a definite matter of urgent public importance?
It certainly puts me in a very difficult position. Obviously the first consideration is that this question should be raised at the earliest possible moment. That appears to be definite. It would not be of the same urgency to-morrow as it is to-day.
On that, may I point out respectfully that to-morrow, as a matter of fact, it would be even more urgent, as the conference is intending to meet on Wednesday?
Would the right hon. Gentleman suggest that as the nomination is displeasing to some, at any rate, in this House, it is unlikely that his party would persist, and ask that he might have until to-morrow to consider withdrawing the nomination If that were so, would it not be proper to allow the thing to lapse to-day, the issue being yet uncertain, and to raise the Motion again to-morrow as a matter of urgent public importance, if it should be found that the name had not been withdrawn?
Might I ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether, as a matter of fact, up to the present time you have not given your ruling as to whether or not the right hon. Gentleman is in order?
In view of the fact that in previous rulings, I believe, you and your predecessors have constantly ruled that the question could only be urgent if raised at the first available opportunity, may I ask whether you are not compelled to rule by those past precedents, that, if this thing be postponed till to-morrow, it has not been raised at the first available opportunity?
Is it not a fact that we have had similar cases to the present one when Mr. Speaker has ruled that in the special circumstances he would allow the party making the application to reserve his right, and to retain the same position which would have occurred had the question been raised in this form?
I attach so much importance to this particular privilege of the House in being able to move the Adjournment on a definite matter of urgent public importance, that I would not like to vary in any way the rulings that have been given before, and therefore I hesitated in the first place to postpone a question of this kind. Although I believe it has been done in the past, I do not think it is a desirable practice. I was coming to the other point, and giving a ruling on the matter before the House as to whether I should allow this Motion or not, and what I was saying was interrupted by a point of Order. It is a matter of some difficulty. I think there is some doubt as to whether there is any responsibility attaching to the Government, but there may be, and, in a matter of such importance, if the House is willing, I will allow the Motion for the Adjournment to be moved. Has the right hon. Gentleman the requisite number of supporters?
The pleasure of the House not having been signified, Mr. SPEAKER called on those Members who supported the Motion to rise in their places, and, not fewer than 40 Members having accordingly risen, the Motion stood over, under Standing Order No. 10, till half-past Seven of the clock this evening.
Fairs (No. 2) Bill,
"to amend the law with respect to games and competitions at fairs and other places," presented by Mr. Groves; supported by Sir Walter de Frece, Mr. Hore-Belisha, Mr. J. Jones, Mr. Grundy, and Mr. George Hirst; to be read a Second time upon Tuesday, 17th December, and to be printed. [Bill 87.]
Privilege Motion
The following Notice of Motion stood on the Paper in the name of COMMANDER BELLAIRS:
"That, in the opinion of this House, the sitting and/or voting of seven Undersecretaries of State in the House of Commons constitutes a breach of Privilege, and that a Committee should be appointed forthwith to consider the matter."
With reference to the Motion on the Paper in the name of the hon. and gallant Member for Maidstone (Commander Bellairs). In this case I must rule the Motion out of order, as it contravenes the very first principle that governs Motions of this kind—it has not been brought forward at the earliest possible moment. Perhaps I may quote a Ruling—there have been many of them —given by one of my predecessors. He said:
"I must remind the hon. Member that in the case of these privilege Motions the House is very jealous, and that it does not allow them to be brought forward except at the earliest possible moment."
In this case a question dealing with the fact that there were seven Under-Secretaries of State at the same time was asked and replied to by the Prime Minister on Monday last, and the matter had been referred to in the Press in the previous week. Of course the hon. and gallant Member is still at liberty, at any time that he likes, to bring the matter forward if he can find an opportunity for doing so; but he is not entitled to get precedence over the Orders of the day.
While respectfully accepting your ruling on the subject, Mr. Speaker, may I ask you whether it makes any difference to that ruling that the Act of 1864 makes it a day by day offence for seven Under-Secretaries of State to sit in the House of Commons? Section 2 of the Act stipulates a fine of £500 maximum per day in the event of any one of the Undersecretaries being present in this House. Does it make any difference, seeing that my Motion was put on the Paper on Friday, that the offence was still being continued on the Friday, and that the change was made only on the Saturday?
The case is possibly even stronger than you have chosen to make it, Mr. Speaker.
We need not consider that.
I had not put my case, and it will not take a moment. It is this: That the offence, if offence it was, took place six months ago.
I was not considering the merits of the case in any shape or form. I was merely giving my ruling that these Motions must be brought forward at the earliest possible moment, and the present Motion cannot be reconciled with that condition.
Orders of the Day
Unemployment Insurance (No. 2) Bill
Considered in Committee [ Progress, 28th November ].
[Mr. ROBERT YOUNG in the Chair.]
CLAUSE 1.—(Minimum Age for Insurance.)
Question again proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
The Clause is one that brings about one of the most far-reaching changes that we have ever seen in this country. I have done my best to wring from the Government side of the House what exactly are the reasons for bringing juveniles of 15 into this scheme. I confess that so far I have been quite unable to find any adequate reason. In the first place it is said in defence of bringing these juveniles into the Bill, that there is a gap of unemployment. All the evidence that one is able to find seems to prove that there is no question of unemployment among juveniles of 15 years of age. In fact, far from there being an unemployment problem amongst juveniles of this age, such problem as there is is to find enough juveniles to fill the jobs that are offered. It has been constantly said in this House that not only is there a shortage of juveniles, but that the figures issued by the Ministry of Labour do not give support to the contention of the Government. It is well known that there are in this year no fewer than 373,000 juveniles short of the requirements of industry. That shortage will rise to 762,000 in 1934. The shortage continues every year until we get to 1940, which is the last date available, and there we have a shortage of 547,000. Therefore, it seems to me absolutely incomprehensible that that argument should be put forward as an excuse for bringing about this extraordinary change.
Then, again, it has been said by the right hon. Lady the Ministry of Labour, in her endeavours to find some excuse for bringing in these juveniles, that the national advisory councils have recommended it. I am afraid that that is a statement which will not bear examination. In the first place the National Advisory Council for Scotland, as the Committee already knows, met only twice, and considered this great and far-reaching question only at one meeting. I think it must be evident that, no matter how able and efficient were the ladies and gentlemen who comprised that Council, they cannot expect us to accept a decision carrying with it such far-reaching consequences when the decision was reached at one meeting with only one discussion. It has to be realised also that not only did the Council hold only one meeting, but that there were only 10 present—there were seven absentees from a Council of 17. It will, therefore, be agreed in all parts of the House that the question did not receive adequate consideration by the Advisory Council of Scotland.
Let us turn to the English Advisory Council. They met, I believe, three times. How much of that time was occupied in considering this great question I do not know, but they did issue a recommendation, signed by a majority. They also issued a Minority Report and a note of dissent. I would like, first of all, to examine the Majority Report and see exactly what it was. The Report is set out under various headings. In listening to the Minister of Labour I certainly got, quite wrongly no doubt, the impression that she had adopted the recommendations, inasmuch as she certainly endeavoured to strengthen her argument by quoting the Advisory Council's decision. But what are the facts of the case? The recommendations of the English Advisory Council are set out under six heads, and I submit that you would never accept any one of those conditions without accepting the others; if you do not accept as a whole you cannot say that the Council, which held three meetings only, were really in favour of bringing juveniles of 15 into the insurance scheme. What are the recommendations? I shall deal with the one that has been left out by the Minister. The Council say emphatically: right to claim that the Council is in favour of this Clause. I am perfectly certain, in my own mind, that many of the signatories of the Report must have had that qualifying condition very much in their minds before they signed the Report. I do not know why the Minister has not accepted this Recommendation. After all, in "Labour and the Nation" they set out very clearly that they were in favour of such a state of affairs, but when we put -forward an Amendment to carry out their own programme, we are met with a refusal. It has been rightly pointed out to the Minister that when the Labour party made promises before the General Election and gained many votes and much support thereby, there was no talk of administrative and other difficulties. I cannot understand why the right hon. Lady does not accept these recommendations in toto. There was a very strong Minority Report, and I very much regretted it when I heard the Parliamentary Secretary abuse the gentlemen who made that report. I think it may be fairly said that if the Government of the day is going to abuse and impute dishonourable motives to anyone who signs a Minority Report which does not suit them, they will find it very difficult in the future to persuade honourable men to conduct these inquiries. The Parliamentary Secretary said that the Report to which I have referred was signed by the representatives of employers who wanted to get cheap labour. I do not think that is the right sort of thing to say under such circumstances, and it is an insult to gentlemen who have served their country well. If we want to hear all sides we must pay a certain tribute of sincerity to those who differ from us. I think the Parliamentary Secretary forgot himself when he made that accusation, and I hope, in the interests of the well-being of the country, and in the interests of securing the best minds to consider these questions, he will withdraw this implication.
We know that there is an enormous volume of opinion in the country, more particularly in educational circles, which is against any form of unemployment insurance for children at 15 years of age unless it is accompanied by some form of instruction. The Government have chosen that part of the Report which suited them, and without the slightest hesitation they have thrown over that part which did not suit them. That is not a course which has the confidence of this House or of the country. What is the reason why juveniles of 15 have been brought in? I think the reason is a sordid one. There seems to be no justifiable reason for bringing juveniles of 15 into the Bill except to make money out of them. It is stated in the Government Actuary's Report that they hope to make £500,000 out of these children in 1931, between £300,000 and £400,000 in 1934, and £500,000 in 1935. That is undoubtedly one of the chief reasons which has actuated the Government in bringing these children under the Bill. The Government have to obtain the money to finance the other parts of their scheme, and a meaner policy to obtain that money can hardly be conceived. The Government are taking the pence from the children because the children are the least able to defend themselves. It seems to me to be a form of petty thieving like that which is described by Charles Dickens under the name of the "kinchin lay," which consisted of robbing the children and taking the pence out of their tightly clutched little hands. It appears that this practive is now being revived by the Socialist Government in a strictly legal way.
The Minister of Labour made a very remarkable statement on this question. She jeered at the Opposition, and said that we objected to her teaching the children thrift. I have always understood thrift to mean self-denial on one's part in order to get some possible future benefit; but I never thought thrift would be called taking money away from you and never giving anything back. Under the present scheme you are taking the pence from the children, and every report which has been issued on this question shows that the children will never get anything back. Under this Clause thrift means that you are taking £500,000 away from the children, and it is very questionable whether they will ever get a penny of it back. If that is the Socialist idea of thrift, I have no use for it.
I do not Want to say too much about the temptation which is being put on the whole of our juvenile population. Judging by the way some hon. Members have been talking, you would think that this Clause applied only to children of 15 who are unemployed. That is not the case at all, because the Clause applies to every child, and it is going to make things very difficult for parents who wish to retain control of their children. Upon all sides we hear the same thing, and that is that children are becoming more difficult to control. What is this Bill going to do? It is going to impose upon parents who are well able to look after their children an additional burden. Formerly, if a child gave up its job, the parents had some control, and they would supply the child with a little pocket money. Under this Clause, if a child wants to give up a job, that child can go at once and get unemployment benefit. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"] I can understand hon. Members opposite not liking what I am saying, but I contend that the operation of this Clause will loosen maternal control. Hon. Members know very well that a child can go to the Employment Exchange for unemployment pay, when he has put it into his own pocket there cannot be very much parental control over him.
This is an attempt on the part of the State to replace paternal control by the control of the State. I ask hon. Members opposite what mandate have they for doing this? Was this proposal brought forward at the election? What right have the Government to use money in this way for children between the ages of 15 and 16? The whole thing is absolutely ridiculous, and I am quite certain, from what I have heard outside this House, that there are millions of our fellow countrymen who agree with me when I say that you have no right to make a proposal of this kind. The right hon. Lady is doing something under this Clause which I am sure she will regret. She is absolutely ignoring the recommendation of the National Council, who recommended that if the age was lowered to 15 the children should be given some sort of instruction as a condition of receiving unemployment benefit. That is a condition which we all believe on this side of the House should be the fundamental part of any scheme for bringing children of 15 under a Bill of this kind. We think this proposal will have a bad effect on the character of the children. We are not thinking only of the children of the unemployed, but we are thinking of the children of 90 per cent. of the employed workers in this country who do not need this provision, and would be very glad to hear that the Government had withdrawn it. There is no mandate or justification whatever for this Clause except the very mean and sordid one, and for these reasons I hope the Committee will reject it.
On this subject I do not share the terror and alarm of the hon. Member for Wimbledon (Sir J. Power) who seems to me to have exaggerated the effect of this proposal. Rightly or wrongly at the present time young persons of 16 and over come under the Unemployment Insurance Clause. All this Clause does is to lower the age to 15, and even then the children must have paid 30 contributions. I admit that I am not in love with this particular proposal. I know something about the schools of the country, and I am inclined to agree with those who contend that the proper place for a boy or a girl up to the age of 16 is in the school. I think that view is generally accepted. My only objection to this Clause is that there is a danger, once it is passed, that there may be some obstruction at a future date by reason of the raising of the school age. We have had quite a number of reports of Committees dealing with the various complexities of this subject, and the last of those reports made one very important qualification to this effect: school, being asked when I came home how I had done at school, and what position I held in my class. I said that I was second; but, when I was asked how many there were in the class, I had to answer that there were two. I do not suggest that in a case of this kind, where possibly there might only be two young persons receiving benefit, all the machinery and organisation of an unemployment centre should be set up; but I do say that in most large industrial centres it should be an obligation of the Ministry to see that the proper facilities are there.
I know from experience that this kind of work would be best done, not by the Ministry of Labour, but by the Board of Education. Unfortunately, the President of the Board of Education, who is equally responsible with the Minister of Labour in regard to this matter, is not here. At one stage in the history of this problem the Board of Education was the fifth wheel in the coach; they were rather inclined to say that it was not their affair, that they had not too much cash in their pockets, and that all the money should be found from the Unemployment Insurance Fund. On the other hand, I think the Ministry of Labour have taken a right line in thinking that, if the work is to be done efficiently, so as to give satisfaction, it should be done, not by the Ministry of Labour, but through the machinery of the local education authorities. I accept that principle, which I think is a sound one, but do not let the local education authorities run away from this work; let it be made clear to them that it is a legal obligation, and that, if they fail to fulfil that legal obligation, the Ministry of Labour can step in and do the work for them. While these two authorities are quarrelling, while they are at a tangent, the children are suffering.
I think everyone is now agreed that these critical years of a child's life can be marred or made by the action of the House of Commons. Therefore, I suggest that, if we pass this Clause now, we should have a most definite assurance that the right hon. Lady on the Report stage will produce some words acceptable to the House to secure that a condition for receipt of benefit shall be proper attendance at a well-organised training centre. The right hon. Lady is strengthened now by the important fact that all sections of the House are in favour of this principle. Hon. Gentlemen above the Gangway are voting for it; we are voting for it; hon. Gentlemen opposite, most of them, would have liked to have voted for it, but the Whips were put on and they could not do so. The right hon. Lady was embarrassed because it was difficult to find words. We will be a Council of State on this occasion, and will help the right hon. Lady to find the necessary words, and I hope that, if we can help her to find the necessary words, she will put down an Amendment on the Report stage.
I am very glad indeed to hear the speech of the hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Mr. Harris), and I am delighted, as I said on Thursday, with the general feeling in the Committee in favour of placing a greater obligation upon the State Departments to provide this training. The hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green, in putting forward this proposal, used the word "permanent." In connection with this problem of training, there has been in the past an idea that it was merely temporary, to meet a certain emergency, and that when that emergency was over the whole thing could be scrapped. It is only in recent times that it has been recognised that it ought to be a permanent part of the educational machinery of the country, and this general recognition of the fact that it must be permament is a great step forward. The present position is that, in accordance with the first Report of the National Advisory Councils, centres are now set up wherever there are 50 children unemployed in a particular area and where there is an average attendance of 40.
Another recommendation contained in that Report was that, where there was not an average attendance of 40, but where an average attendance of 20 could be obtained, classes should be set up—there is a distinction between the two—and that, as from January next, the setting up of these classes should be proceeded with wherever it was found that the numbers were only 20. We want, however, to go even further, and to be able to deal, either through the continuation courses or by any other method that is open to us, with even smaller numbers than 20. It is perfectly true that practically speaking very little is being done wherever the numbers on the register drop below the point of an average attendance of 40 in a class. It it perfectly clear that what hon. Members in all quarters of the Committee would like to see would be some obligation on the Departments to ensure the setting up of this machinery. The obligation should rest equally upon the Ministry of Labour and upon the education authorities. In this Bill I can only deal with the obligations that may rest upon the Ministry of Labour.
I want to meet the criticism quite honestly and clearly, and to add to the Bill anything that will strengthen the obligation of the Ministry of Labour; and I shall be glad to consult with hon. Members below the Gangway and with my hon. Friends who are interested in this question as to what form of words can be put in on the Report stage of the Bill in order to secure that end. I attach the greatest possible importance to the retention of the interest of the education authorities. I think it would be the gravest mistake to allow this problem to drift away from them and be regarded as merely an affair of the Ministry of Labour. Therefore, this is a question on which we can more effectively make haste slowly than by rushing at it—
Do I understand that the right hon. Lady proposes to insert in the Bill an Amendment to deal with this question of training centres?
I cannot speak for the Board of Education; I am speaking for my own Department; but, on the Report stage, I will try to find words that will meet the case which has been put forward in regard to an increased obligation on my Department. I propose to refer immediately to the question of the degree to which we can rapidly develop any form of assistance in educational instruction for the smaller groups which exist in different parts of the country, and I am going to ask the help of the Board of Education in examining the whole of the ground in order to see to what extent we can carry that out. I have here some extremely interesting figures. There has not yet been time to complete them, but the figures that have been ascertained give a picture of the problem that we have to face. There were, on the 18th November, 33,966 boys and 30,541 girls under the age of 18 registered as unemployed. Of these, 3,914 boys and 3,895 girls were temporarily stopped from the service of their employers; that is to say, they were not unemployed in the sense in which we use the term in connection with classes. There were 7,599 boys and 3,405 girls wholly unemployed who were claiming benefit.
The Committee will see, therefore, what an enormous proportion are on the unemployment register but receive no benefit at all, many of them not being insured persons at the present time. These boys and girls are scattered among 992 different Employment Exchanges and juvenile employment bureaux. Only at 78 of these were there more than 100 boys registered as unemployed, and only at 73 were more than 100 girls registered as unemployed; while at only 155 offices were there as many as 20 boys claiming benefit, and only at 92 were there as many as 20 girls claiming benefit. There are only 35 towns where there are not junior instruction centres in which there are 20 or more wholly unemployed boy or girl claimants. The national average rate of unemployment among insured juveniles is 3.3 per cent. For some years it has only been about one-third of the rate for adults.
Would the right hon. Lady say what is the lower age?
The lower age would be the school-leaving age.
That is to say, 14?
Yes. Juveniles down to the school-leaving age would be included in that group of registered persons, but the insured group, as I have explained, is very much smaller.
Can the right hon. Lady give the figures classified by industries?
That is not possible at present, but I hope to make an intensive examination of this group, because it gives a good picture of the size of the problem and the wide area over which these groups are scattered. As was rightly pointed out by the hon. Mem- ber for South-West Bethnal Green, there is very great difficulty in those areas where there are only one or two unemployed boys and girls, but I do not despair of being able to deal even with them. It is perfectly clear that it would not be possible to set up centres in such cases; they would have to be dealt with by linking them up with some existing educational facilities. So far as it is possible to do so, I quite frankly and gladly accept the intention of the Committee, and would ask the hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green, whose name is attached to this Amendment, and his colleagues, to meet the technical experts with a view to working out an appropriate form of words which will enable us to put the matter in order on the Report Stage.
5.0 p.m.
Has there been consultation between the right hon. Lady and the Minister of Education, so that we may know that the undertaking she has given will not merely be the undertaking of the Ministry of Labour but of the Ministry of Education as well?
Quite obviously, that is not possible.
Hon. Members below the Gangway, and my hon. Friends behind me, will have been glad to learn from the right hon. Lady's statement that she has realised something of the force of the arguments that were put forward last Thursday for making attendance at schools, or centres, a normal condition of the receipt of benefit in the case of the new class to whom it is proposed to extend unemployment insurance. I am very glad to see that our efforts were not thrown away and that the right hon. Lady realises the importance of the question. But the concession she proposes to insert into the Bill will, at most, only touch a small section of the young people who will be entering the labour market. She may reply that it is the section for which this House and the country feel most concerned, namely, those who are suffering from unemployment, but her proposal will only take into effect the unemployed insured young person, and will only, in effect, touch that section of the unemployed insured young person on whom the obligation to attend instruction can be made effective.
In the case of many young persons, even in the areas where this obligation has been placed upon them, that they cannot claim benefit unless they attend a centre, there have been numerous cases of young people who have been ready to sacrifice benefit rather than take instruction. Therefore, we cannot too clearly recognise that the concession she has announced, valuable though it is, will only affect, at best, the unemployed insured young people. We are concerned not only with the insured unemployed but we also have at heart the welfare of all young persons who may be unemployed, whether they are insured or not. I pointed out on Thursday that the right hon. Lady on the Second Reading had been content to rely on the recommendation given her by two advisory councils and had not given us any of her own reasons for taking this step. There has been very little enlightenment from the opposite benches as to the reason for lowering the insurance age but I imagine the reasons for making this change are those given by her predecessor in introducing the Unemployment Insurance (No. 2) Bill of 1924. In his statement the right hon. Gentleman laid great weight on the necessity for the Ministry having more information and supervision over young people.
I want the Committee to examine what information and supervision a young person will, in fact, be given by the Government proposal to lower the insurance age to 15. In the first place, the scheme will give the Ministry no information as regards young persons entering into uninsurable occupation. Those are outside the purview of the scheme altogether. In the second place, it will give no information in regard to those young persons who, in the course of time, may come forward making claims for benefit, which will be disallowed. In the third place, it will give no information in regard to those young persons who have left school and been employed, but have not been credited with sufficient contributions to entitle them to benefit. There will be no reason for the Employment Exchange to have any information in regard to those young persons. Finally, every year a considerable number of children may be exempted from school attendance below the age of 15 when the age is raised and in their case, according to the wording of the Bill, they will not enter into un- employment insurance until they reach the ordinary school-leaving age. Again that will be a class entirely outside the purview of the unemployment insurance scheme. If the Committee asks, is there any large class of children exempted from attendance at school below the normal school-leaving age, I would refer them to the figures given me a week or two ago by the President of the Board of Education as to the number of exemptions which annually take place in the four areas in England in which the school-leaving age has in fact been raised. Those figures show that every year in those four areas there is a very considerable number of children who claim exemption from school attendance below the age of 15. In regard to the four classes I have enumerated the scheme will give the Ministry no information whatever.
The unemployment insurance card, which is the only thing that a young person need obtain from the Employment Exchange, is a card enabling him to draw benefit when he has paid the proper number of contributions. There is no supervision in that. The unemployment card once obtained by the young person from the Exchange, there need be no other contact unless he has paid his 30 contributions and is out of employment and claims benefit. Then, even if a young person comes back and claims benefit, he does not necessarily get any help in finding employment, or in finding suitable employment. There has been no safeguard provided by the unemployment card in regard to the hours he has to work nor whether the work is suitable having regard to his years or his health. If the young person is employed, or goes from one employer to another, he has no touch whatever with the Employment Exchange, perhaps over a long period of time. That is not the supervision we want young children to have on entering and retaining employment. The supervision which would be valuable would be that to which the right hon. Lady referred the other day, namely the supervision of the original choice of employment given by what are known as choice of employment committees in some areas and juvenile advisory committees in others.
I do not think we can stress too much the importance of the work done by those committees. They do not provide instruction, but they provide advice and care and selection in entering employment, and it may well be through those committees that the obligation is put upon the child to attend instruction centres when out of work. Valuable work is also done by many of these committees in keeping in touch with children after entering into employment through after care committees. In many areas, the work is done very thoroughly. Children are given school-leaving cards before they leave school, with particulars of their school record and the employment for which they seem most suitable, and that is actually sent to the Juvenile Employment Exchange. That is invaluable work done at the entry of the young person into employment. We want to be assured that some analagous system follows up that initial work in after years and that the child does not lose the careful supervision given him at the outset of his industrial career. Effective continuing supervision after the child has actually passed out of school can be given infinitely better under such a scheme than under the lowering of the insurance age.
A scheme of this kind was recommended both by the Malcolm and the Salvesen Committees two years ago. Briefly, it is that the young person, before he or she can obtain employment, has to obtain, either from the juvenile Exchange or the juvenile advisory or choice of employment committee, a card which he must present to the intending employer, who must fill up such particulars as the Ministry of Labour may desire, of the hours to be worked and so on. The card must be returned to the Exchange by the employer when the employment comes to an end, and the young person must either retrieve it or procure a second card to present to the next employer. It is obvious that, under such a system as that, you can get infinitely more supervision of the employment, and the type of employment, than under this purely mechanical system of unemployment insurance. The ordinary unemployment insurance card has no space on which to enter particulars about finding employment or the hours to be worked. It is simply a mechanical contrivance to enable so many stamps to be entered.
If this admirable system, by which school-leaving cards are sent to the Exchanges, could be made obligatory on the whole country, the Ministry would have information about every child leaving school and entering employment, insurable or uninsurable, and you would also get all the information you desire about the type of employment. You can go further. You can insure on the working certificate that there shall be entered a medical assurance that the child is fit for the occupation he is going to take up, and the promise of the employer that he will let the child go to such continuation classes as the local authority may desire to make compulsory. As a matter of fact, as the House was reminded the other day, there is one area in England in which day continuation classes under the Education Act, 1921, are compulsory. Here is real supervision—a supervision which would fit in admirably and make effective legislation to limit, restrict, or define the employment of young persons over 14 or 15 years of age such as the House was considering last Friday. It is bringing the child to the Employment Exchange or to the Juvenile Exchange at the right angle, the angle, that is to say, of regarding the Exchange as a place where suitable work is to be found instead of merely a place to which he goes in the hope of obtaining benefit. This working certificate scheme as it is called could hardly be better described than as a scheme for providing a card to enable the young person to find a job; not merely a card to enable him to find money.
I think the Committee will be interested to know that a system of this kind is in existence in the great majority of the States of America where it is linked up with the obligation to attend compulsory continuation classes. I have only to show the Committee the sort of card which is issued in connection with the working certificate to enable hon. Members to realise the mass of information that may be recorded on a system such as this compared with the very meagre information which is provided by the ordinary Unemployment Insurance. I would remind the Committee that both the Malcolm and the Salvesen Committees recommended this. They considered the lowering of the insurance age, and recommended the working certificate procedure, though I must admit that the Salvesen Committee desired the school age raised to prepare the children for insurance entry. The Malcolm Committee gave consideration to the raising of the insurance age and recommended this procedure of the working certificate, and the English and Scottish Advisory Councils, England and Wales, and Scotland were asked to consider this working certificate procedure at an early date.
It has been a very real disappointment to me to realise that on neither of these Councils has this working certificate scheme really received any adequate consideration. I understand that the English Council had only just started to consider this scheme when down came word from the right hon. Lady that she desired them to consider the lowering of the insurance age. It has never really been considered in any way whatever. On the Scottish Council, I understand the scheme was only considered at one meeting of the Council held this autumn after the principle of the lowering of the insurance age had been decided. The Council having agreed to the principle of lowering the insurance age, it was hardly thought worth while to recommend the working certificate. I must say to the right hon. Lady that when I look at the terms of the letter which a very much respected official of the Employment Exchanges in Scotland sent to the Chairman of the Scottish Council asking for a meeting, I feel that, in one sentence of that letter, he rather weights the balance against the working certificate scheme. He makes reference to it and reminds the Chairman that the Salvesen Committee only wished it as a temporary measure until the school-leaving age was raised and the insurance age lowered. I submit that that sentence in that letter read like an attempt to bias the Council against considering the matter on its merits. Considering that the Scottish Council includes two representatives of the Ministry—the gentleman to whom I have referred and another very respected member of the staff of the Ministry of Labour—I think that it is not in the least surprising that the Scottish Council arrived at the decision to support the lowering of the insurance age.
I am authorised to tell the right hon. Lady, and the Committee, that the Scottish Council was not unanimous. One member of that Council, Miss Cowan, reserved her opinion at the meeting at which the principle of lowering the insurance age was defeated, and she has informed the Chairman, and has authorised me to say here, that she would have recorded her dissent from the findings of the Council had she seen the report of the Council before it appeared in the printed report. She never saw it until it appeared in printed form. Therefore, the Committee are entitled to know, and it is important that they should know, that this question was not only hurriedly considered by the Scottish Council at a meeting from which many of the members experienced in educational work were absent and that not only were the findings rather prejudiced by the letter to which I have referred, but also that its finding was not unanimous as has been supposed. Those of us who have studied a little this certificate scheme and had hoped to see it given a trial, are bitterly disappointed that it has not received the consideration from the two Councils which the late Government asked them to give. I emphatically hold the view that this scheme does give an effective supervision and control over all young persons going in and out of any type of employment, insurable or otherwise, which the right hon. Lady's scheme does not give. We say that her scheme does not give this guarantee and that the alternative scheme is well worth a trial. That is our answer to the only ostensible reason for which I understand this scheme is being put forward.
We have other arguments against it. Five years ago when the proposal to lower the age to 14 was being discussed many fears were expressed as to the effect of such a proposal on the expansion of secondary education. Those fears may not be as serious to-day as they were five years ago, but undoubtedly there is still room for their existence, because the age of 15 plus is not the age at which the secondary school either in its first stage, or still less in its second stage, is complete. Parents are usually asked to enter into an obligation to keep their children at the secondary school until the age of 16 at least. In the case of girls a very influential Committee of the Board of Education some years ago reported in favour of girls being given until 17 wherever possible. We cannot help feeling on this side that the knowledge that children may qualify for benefit before reaching the age of 16—and that is what the Bill will make possible; that whereas a child of 16 to-day cannot draw benefit until nearly the age at which he becomes 17, under this Bill, if it becomes law, he will be able to draw benefit before reaching his sixteenth birthday—we cannot help feeling that that fact may make many parents not in good circumstances more reluctant than at present to send children to secondary schools or to keep them there until the necessary period has elapsed. So that there is still, we feel, a strong educational argument against it, because we fear that it will put a spoke in the wheel of that expansion of secondary education, which has been a marked feature of our educational administration both in England and in Scotland during the last 10 years.
Finally, we come to the possible effect upon the morale of the young people. Every Member of this Committee would hesitate long to say of any one individual, man, woman or young person, that he or she was demoralised or had deteriorated in any way as a result of the drawing of unemployment benefit. But equally we all, I think, admit the possibility of the benefit making people, especially young people, a little less anxious to find work than otherwise might be the case. I need not labour the point, because it could not be put more strongly than in the quotation from the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the First Commissioner of Works given by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) on the Second Reading of the Bill. It was a quotation which was eloquent of the danger to the morale of young persons between the ages of 18 and 25. If the right hon. Gentleman saw so much danger to the morale of persons between the ages of 18 and 25, many of whom might have upon them the responsibilities of a family, how much greater is the danger in the case of a boy or girl of 15. Five shillings or six shillings a week may seem very little to a man, but I suppose hon. Members, like myself, can all remember the day when we took extraordinary pleasure in whatever pence our elders and betters were pleased to bestow upon us. I can well remember the vivid enjoyment which pocket money of 3d. a week gave to me—[An HON. MEMBER: "You are not demoralised!"]— and how glad I was to supplement it by giving sittings to an artist relative at a penny an hour. That was not very long before I reached the age of 15, and I can imagine that to some boys and girls the knowledge that 5s. or 6s. a week can be obtained, as it will be obtained if Clause 1 passes, after only 10 weeks payment of contributions by the young person, may be a very real deterrent towards seeking work and remaining steadily at work.
The hon. Gentleman the Member for Fermanagh and Tyrone (Mr. Devlin) ridiculed the idea that demoralisation would result to young people from this Clause, because, he reminded the House that we gave Old Age Pensions on a non contributory basis to old people, and that no one thought that those old people were demoralised because they were in receipt of the pension. That is quite true, but I claim that the two things are not in the least comparable. The payment of the Old Age Pension, even a non-contributory one, seems to me to be something rather of the nature of a consolation prize given to a man or woman who has not had a life which has resulted in any great affluence. Do we want young people setting out on life to be content looking out for consolation prizes? We want them to be inspired with the desire for something much better. We would like each young person to feel that, like Napoleon's soldiers, they had a marshal's baton in their knapsack, metaphorically speaking. We would like our young people to feel that life holds for them the possibility of great intellectual and moral development, and useful employment in which they may make the best of themselves, and make good. If they are to do that, there is nothing of greater importance than that they should form habits of steady, work, working not only because they realise the value of work and the necessity of work, but because they desire to be helpful to parents who have made sacrifices to help them, and because they recognise that all steady work helps the country.
Those of us who try in different ways to help children feel that we want to protect them from everything, from physical harm, from ill-health and, above all, we want to protect them from any moral harm, from any moral danger. Although hon. Members opposite may say that there is not much danger in this proposal, we want them to avoid the risk. Surely, parents spend their lives in pro- tecting their children from risks. We say that, admittedly, there is a risk here, nobody can deny that, and we say: "Give the children the benefit of the doubt, and do what you can to avoid exposing them to temptation." Because we feel that the ostensible reasons put forward for this change will not hold water, we are thrown back upon the view that the only real reason for the suggested change is that the contributions from these young people will provide very valuable help to a Fund which is rapidly drifting towards insolvency. We say that that is an absolutely inadequate reason, a miserable reason, an absolutely unworthy reason, and it can only be described by saying that the proposal is one which would barter the character of the children of this country for gold.
The Noble Lady has discussed this Clause with that mastery of detail of which she has such command. I do not propose to enter into a full discussion of the merits or demerits of the Clause. I have only risen in order to elicit from the Minister of Labour some information as to her intentions with respect to the Amendment which was discussed on Thursday last. She has made a statement which may or may not be very satisfactory, according to the interpretation that is placed upon it by herself. I hope she will be good enough to communicate that interpretation to the House. I admit that I am not quite clear what are her ideas.
What are yours?
It is much more important to get the views of the Minister than mine. I would like her to answer two questions. In the first place, it is essential, from the point of view of training, that you should, first of all, have facilities. The second point is, that you should make it a condition of the payment of unemployment allowance to these young persons that they should take advantage of these facilities, where they are provided. Obviously, if you continue the present conditions, where there are no facilities it is no use making a condition. Therefore, the vital matter, from the point of view of the House of Commons, is, what are the intentions of the Government with regard to increasing facilities and making them available before conditions are imposed? I am not quite clear as to what the right hon. Lady intends. I was rather disconcerted by the answer which she gave to the hon. Member for Bodmin (Mr. Foot). This is a matter not merely for the Minister of Labour, but for the President of the Board of Education also, and, with due respect to the President of the Board of Education, I think he ought to be here, because the Amendment which was moved was an Amendment which covered both Departments. It was an Amendment which engaged the Minister of Labour to act in co-operation with the Board of Education to provide facilities. It is quite clear that you cannot provide them without that co-operation.
I could well understand the right hon. Lady saying that local education authorities are autonomous, but they are autonomous only within limits. Therefore, there may be a failure in certain districts through the recalcitrancy, reluctance or delay of a local education authority, and the Ministry of Labour should come in there; but you must have the Board of Education prepared to exercise the necessary pressure and to offer the necessary inducements for the purpose of providing facilities. I do not know whether the President of the Board of Education was present during the discussion in Committee. [HON. MEMBERS: "Yes!"] It is, quite frankly, a matter that concerns him just as much as the Minister of Labour. He refused, I understand, to take any part in the discussion, and, having been rather criticised on that point, he has taken a course, which is not a very courageous one, of absenting himself on the present occasion. There are three Departments that are concerned—one is primarily the Board of Education, secondly, the Ministry of Labour, and, thirdly, and perhaps most important of all, the Treasury. The two most important Departments are not represented here to-day.
I want to know from the right hon. Lady, because this is the last opportunity in Committee, and upon this we shall express an opinion in the Division Lobby, what it is that she really means. Does she mean, speaking not on behalf of herself, not on behalf of her Department, but speaking on behalf of the Government as a whole, to frame and introduce an Amendment and put it down for Committee or the Report Stage, and to undertake the responsibility of the Government for putting it there, which would be an obligation on the part of the Government as a whole, whatever Department is concerned, to see that facilities are provided. That is really the vital question. I do not doubt in the least the sincerity of her intention. I know that she is quite zealous upon this particular topic, and she showed every disposition to do her very best, and very likely she has done a good deal in private in trying to persuade her colleagues to come to her aid. Since her colleagues will not come here for us to talk to them, there is only one way in which we can emphasise our opinion as a Committee and that is, first of all, by eliciting from her what the Government intend to do. She may say "Speaking as the Minister of Labour, I will do my best to provide facilities." With all due respect to her, she cannot. She can only do it if she has the co-operation of two other Departments and I want to know from her, speaking on behalf of the Government as a whole: "Are they prepared to move on the Report Stage an Amendment which will constitute an obligation on the part of the Government to provide these Facilities?" In the second place, will it be made a condition of the payment of unemployment benefit that these young people shall take full advantage of these facilities.
Mr. Hollins.
"The Minister of Labour."
The right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) asked me a question as to the policy of the Government. The policy of the Government is most emphatic.
On a point of Order. I think there is a principle involved here. You called a Member of this House, and he rose. Is it in Order for you to substitute another name, when you have called the name of another Member?
I called the hon. Member for Hanley (Mr. Hollins) to address the Committee, but the hon. Member sat down when the Minister of Labour rose.
There is no doubt in the mind of anyone here, certainly not any doubt in the mind of hon. Members on this side, about the policy of the Government. The policy of the Government is to set up, and to make it part of the machinery of the State, an obligation to provide the necessary training facilities for these people who are un-employed, but it is not part of that policy—I want to be perfectly honest with the Committee—and it never has been part of that policy that where, in the circumstances which I have just described, there may be no facilities available, benefit should be refused. That never has been the policy. Every step that has been taken up to the present time has been taken with the fullest consultation between the local education authorities, the Board of Education and the Ministry of Labour. There has been a threefold advance. There has been consideration of the Malcolm Report, the Salvesen Report and the reports of the two National Advisory Councils. You cannot dissociate that threefold advance and consultation. I want to proceed on that threefold line.
I do not want it to be thrust back upon the Ministry of Labour so that I may be in the position that the education authorities may turn round and say: "The House of Commons have put it upon your shoulders, and we can slip out." When; it becomes a question of compulsion, I frankly confess that I cannot see how I, can press compulsion upon the education authorities to the point that they may turn round and say: "We will have nothing more to do with it." We have not reached the stage yet when we can put an obligation upon them. We have to use the next 12 months or two years in getting their voluntary co-operation in connection with the development of these centres; but I do most emphatically want to place an obligation upon the local education authorities, the Ministry of Labour and the Board of Education to move steadily on in that direction, and in this particular Bill I can strengthen—I think I can say this, subject to the views of the experts—the obligation in these directions, without any question whatever: the obligation of seeing that where facilities are practicable it shall be an obligation to provide them, and where facilities are provided, they shall be associated with the payment of benefit on the part of the exchange officers.
I come to the other point which was raised by the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs. How can we get these facilities provided in an obligatory way? That is the difficulty. Frankly, it is a matter of threefold consultation between the Board of Education, the local education authorities and the Ministry of Labour, and I want to proceed with that in the closest possible way in order that we may get to the stage when the obligation does, in fact, rest upon the threefold authority; but if the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs asks me at this stage to say that in this Bill I can make provision for the enforcement of that threefold obligation, I say that it is riot possible.
I was somewhat concerned by the statement made by the Noble Lady opposite in regard to the difficulty of supervision, and I should like to give the Committee the experience of my own local education authority in regard to the difficulties of the present position, which prevents us having adequate authority over boys and girls from the age of 14 to the age of 16. Our educational committee has a juvenile employment committee and a juvenile information bureau. We send the chief officer of the juvenile employment bureau at the end of every leaving term to visit the schools to advise the children and place them in occupations. Our difficulty has been that after he has visited the schools, advised the children, and assisted some of them to obtain occupations we have not been able to keep trace of those between the ages of 14 and 16 years. The difficulty is that education authorities have no control over children between the ages of 14 and 16. Only very small numbers of children are sent to the free educational centres in the city, but if we had some control over scholars between these ages we should have had a larger number attending in these centres.
I welcome the suggestion that the school-leaving age is to be raised to 15 and that the Minister of Labour intends to bring down the insurable age to 15. By this means we shall be able to exercise that supervision which is impossible at the present moment. I could not understand the Noble Lady when she said that the raising of the school age would not give us that supervision, which is very necessary, and I think the effect on the morale of the children will be quite the opposite to that indicated by the Noble Lady By the means of contact between the educational committee and the juvenile employment bureau we can keep personal touch with these children and keep them away from the Employment Exchange. I am astonished that only 35 local authorities have taken advantage of the power to appoint juvenile employment bureaux. We might have obtained absolute supervision under the Act of 1918 had it not been for circular after circular from the late Minister of Education which hampered us in making provisions under that Act. This is an opportune moment, when we are raising the school-leaving age and lowering the insurable age, to secure this supervision. Education committees will be able to do more efficient and thorough work, give proper and adequate attention to the education of the young children, as they will be compelled, as I understand, to attend at these centres. It is a move in the right direction. Instead of boys and girls of 14 to 16 years of age running about the streets we want to bring them under our care. We have not been able to keep trace of them between 14 and 16 years of age up to the present, but I think this Bill will enable us to have that adequate supervision.
I only wish to say one or two words. The Committee I think is at a grave disadvantage in discussing this question in the absence of the President of the Board of Education. The right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) has expressed his opinion that the President of the Board of Education should be here. At an earlier stage we moved to report Progress, but the Chairman decided not to accept the Motion. Now the party below the Gangway is also of opinion that the President of the Board of Education should be present. We do not intend to press that point because we are in full sympathy with the Minister of Labour in her desire to press forward with her Measure. We are most desirous that she should be able to get the Division on this Clause before the Motion for Adjournment at half-past seven, and I shall do my best with hon. Friends behind me to see that we proceed on the programme laid down by the Prime Minister. I am certain the right hon. Lady will not thank those of her own supporters who do their best to obstruct Government business. We are anxious to get a Division on this subject, and we do not intend to press the point as to the unsatisfactory nature of her statement.
We hold that it is a most unsatisfactory statement and does not in any way meet the spirit or the letter of the two Amendments which were tabled last Thursday. She has had the week-end to consider the matter, and has brought forward statistics which show that the matter is most important. I think the Committee should have had the statistics in time to have considered them during the week-end. We reserve the right to bring this matter up again on Report stage when we shall have the right hon. Lady's Amendment before us. We do not regard the statement she has now made as meeting the point, but we shall not press it further because we have
no desire to obstruct business with lengthy speeches. When the opportunity occurs of reviewing the Amendment which the right hon. Lady proposes to put on the Order Paper we shall consider it. not merely from the point of view of the concession of an obligation where facilities are provided, but from the point of view of seeing whether she has been able to make sure that these facilities are provided in every case and that benefit is not paid unless, in the words of "Labour and the Nation," advantage is taken of these facilities.
rose in her place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
Question put, "That the Question be now put."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 209; Noes, 196.
Division No. 62.] AYES. [5.54 p.m. Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Edwards. E. (Morpeth) Leach, W. Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Egan, W. H. Lees, J. Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro') Freeman, Peter Lloyd, C. Ellis Alpass, J. H. Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) Longden, F. Ammon, Charles George Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.) Lovat-Fraser, J. A. Angell, Norman Gill, T. H. Lowth, Thomas Arnott, John Gillett, George M. Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) Attlee, Clement Richard Gosling, Harry MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham) Ayles, Walter Gossling, A. G. McElwee, A. Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Gould, F. McEntee, V. L. Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley) Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Mackinder, W. Barnes, Alfred John Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) MacLaren, Andrew Batey, Joseph Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) MacNeill-Weir, L. Bellamy, Albert Groves, Thomas E. McShane. John James Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood Grundy, Thomas W. Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Bennett, Captain E. N. (Cardiff, Central) Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Mansfield, W. Bennett, William (Battersea, South) Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) March, S. Benson. G. Hall, Capt. W. P. (Portsmouth, C.) Marley, J. Bentham, Dr. Ethel Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn) Mathers, George Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale) Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Venon Matters, L. W. Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret Hastings, Dr. Somerville Melville, Sir James Bowen, J. W. Haycock, A. W. Messer, Fred Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Hayday, Arthur Middleton, G. Broad, Francis Alfred Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Mills, J. E. Bromfield, William Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) Morgan, Dr. H. B. Bromley, J. Herriotts, J. Morley, Ralph Brooke, W. Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth) Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South) Brothers, M. Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.) Brown, C. W. E. (Notts, Mansfield) Hoffman, P. C. Mort, D. L. Burgess, F. G. Hollins, A. Moses, J. J. H. Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland) Hopkin, Daniel Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent) Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel (Norfolk, N.) Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) Muff, G. Caine, Derwent Hall- Isaacs, George Naylor, T. E. Cameron, A. G. John, William (Rhondda, West) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.) Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Noel Baker, P. J. Charleton, H. C. Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Oldfield, J. R. Chater, Daniel Jowitt, Rt. Hon. Sir W. A. Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston) Cluse, W. S. Kelly, W. T. Palin, John Henry Cocks, Frederick Seymour Kennedy, Thomas Paling, Wilfrid Compton, Joseph Knight, Holford Palmer, E. T. Cove, William G. Lang, Gordon Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Daggar, George Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George Perry, S. F. Dallas, George Lathan, G. Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Law, Albert (Bolton) Phillips, Dr. Marion Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert Law, A. (Rosendale) Picton-Turbervill, Edith Duncan, Charles Lawrence, Susan Pole, Major D. G. Ede, James Chuter Lawson, John James Potts, John S. Edmunds, J. E. Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle) Price, M. P. Quibell, D. J. K. Sinkinson, George Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Rathbone, Eleanor Smith, Alfred (Sunderland) Turner, B. Raynes, W. R. Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) Vaughan, D. J. Richards, R. Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) Viant, S. P. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Wallace, H. W. Riley, Ben (Dewsbury) Smith, Tom (Pontefract) Watkins, F. C. Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees) Smith, W. R. (Norwich) Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah Ritson, J. Snowden. Rt. Hon. Philip Wellock, Wilfred Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) Snowden, Thomas (Accrington) West, F. R. Romeril, H. G. Sorensen. R. Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood) Rosbotham, D. S. T. Spero, Dr. G. E. Whiteley, William (Blaydon) Rowson, Guy Stamford, Thomas W. Williams, David (Swansea, East) Salter, Dr. Alfred Strachey, E. J. St. Loe Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Sanders, W. S. Strauss, G. R. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Sandham, E. Sutton, J. E. Wilson, J. (Oldham) Sawyer, G. F. Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln) Wilson R. J. (Jarrow) Scurr, John Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S. W.) Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby) Wright, W. (Rutherglen) Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Young, R. S. (Islington, North) Sherwood, G. H. Thurtle, Ernest Shield, George William Tillett, Ben TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Shillaker, J. F. Tinker, John Joseph Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Shinwell, E. Townend, A. E. Hayes. NOES. Albery, Irving James Elmley, Viscount Llewellin, Major J. J. Aske, Sir Robert Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s. M.) Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey Astor, Viscountess Everard, W. Lindsay Long, Major Eric Atholl, Duchess of Falle, Sir Bertram G. Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley) Ferguson, Sir John Maclean, Sir Donald (Cornwall, N.) Balfour, George (Hampstead) Fison, F. G. Clavering Macquisten, F. A. Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet) Foot, Isaac Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) Balniel, Lord Ford, Sir P. J. Makins, Brigadier-General E. Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Marjoribanks, E. C. Beckett, John (Camberwell, Peckham) Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Maxton, James Bellairs, Commander Carlyon Galbraith, J. F. W. Meller, R. J. Berry, Sir George Ganzoni, Sir John Millar, J. D. Bevan, S. J. (Holborn) George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd (Car'vn) Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) Mitchell-Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Blindell, James Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley) Mond, Hon. Henry Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Glassey, A. E. Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. Bowater. Col. Sir T. Vansittart Glyn, Major R. G. C. Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Boyce, H. L. Grace, John Morrison Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury) Bracken, B. Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester) Braithwaite, Major A. N. Granville, E. Muirhead, A. J. Brockway, A. Fenner Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert Brown, Ernest (Leith) Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) O'Neill, Sir H. Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.) Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William Brown, W. J. (Wolverhampton, West) Gunston, Captain D. W. Peake, Capt. Osbert Buchanan, G. Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Buckingham, Sir H. Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Power, Sir John Cecil Bullock, Captain Malcolm Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford) Pownall, Sir Assheton Burton, Colonel H. W. Hammersley, S. S. Ramsay, T. B. Wilson Butt, Sir Alfred Hanbury, C. Ramsbotham, H. Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Rawson, Sir Cooper Carver, Major W. H. Hartington, Marquess of Reid, David D. (County Down) Castle Stewart, Earl of Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Remer, John R. Cautley, Sir Henry S. Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by) Rentoul, Sir Gervals S. Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Ross, Major Ronald D. Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.) Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Rothschild, J. de Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston) Hore-Belisha, Leslie Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. Christie, J. A. Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) Hunter, Dr. Joseph Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Colville, Major D. J. Hurd, Percy A. Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen) Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. Hurst, Sir Gerald B. Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart Cranbourne, Viscount Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R. Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D. Crichton-Stuart, Lord C. James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Savery, S. S. Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Jones, Rt. Hon Leif (Camborne) Shakespeare, Geoffrey H. Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West) Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. Sinclair, Sir A. (Caithness) Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Kedward R. M. (Kent, Ashford) Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) Dairymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey Kindersley, Major G. M. Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford) King, Commodore Rt. Hon. Henry D. Smith-Carington, Neville W. Davies, Dr. Vernon Kirkwood, D. Smithers, Waldron Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Knox, Sir Alfred Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Dawson, Sir Philip Lamb, Sir J. Q. Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East) Duckworth, G. A. V. Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton) Southby, Commander A. R. J. Dugdale, Capt. T. L. Lane Fox, Rt. Hon. George R. Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland) Dudgeon, Major C. R. Law, Sir Alfred (Derby, High Peak) Stephen, Campbell Eden, Captain Anthony Leighton, Major B. E. P. Stewart, W. J. (Belfast, South) Elliot, Major Walter E. Lewis, Oswald (Colchester) Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F.
Thomson, Sir F. Wardlaw-Milne, J. S. Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount Tinne, J. A. Warrender, Sir Victor Womersley, W. J. Todd, Capt. A. J. Waterhouse, Captain Charles Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Wayland, Sir William A. Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff) Turton, Robert Hugh Wells, Sydney R. Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Tudor Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) Withers, Sir John James Captain Margesson and Sir George Penny.
Question put accordingly, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 223; Noes, 164.
Division No. 241.] AYES. [10.40 p.m. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Groves, Thomas E. Moses, J. J. H. Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Grundy, Thomas W. Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent) Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Muff, G. Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro') Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Naylor, T. E. Alpass, J. H. Hall, Capt. W. P. (Portsmouth, C.) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Ammon, Charles George Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn) Noel Baker, P. J. Angell, Norman Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Oldfield, J. R. Arnott, John Hastings, Dr. Somerville Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston) Attlee, Clement Richard Haycock, A. W. Palin, John Henry Ayles, Walter Hayday, Arthur Paling, Wilfrid Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Palmer, E. T. Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley) Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Barnes, Alfred John Herriotts, J. Perry, S. F. Batey, Joseph Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth) Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Beckett, John (Camberwell, Peckham) Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Phillips, Dr. Marion Bellamy, Albert Hoffman, P. C. Picton-Turbervill, Edith Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood Hollins, A. Pole, Major D. G. Bennett, Captain E. N. (Cardiff, Central) Hopkin, Daniel Potts, John S. Bennett, William (Battersea, South) Horrabin, J. F. Price, M. P. Benson, G. Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) Quibell, D. J. K. Bentham, Dr. Ethel Isaacs, George Raynes, W. R. Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale) John, William (Rhondda, West) Richards, R. Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Bowen, J. W. Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Riley, Ben (Dewsbury) Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees) Broad, Francis Alfred Jowitt, Rt. Hon. Sir W. A. Ritson, J. Brockway, A. Fenner Kelly, W. T. Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) Bromfield, William Kennedy, Thomas Romeril, H. G. Bromley, J. Kinley, J. Rosbotham, D. S. T. Brooke, W. Kirkwood, D. Rowson, Guy Brothers, M. Knight, Holford Salter, Dr. Alfred Brown, C. W. E. (Notts, Mansfield) Lang, Gordon Sanders, W. S. Brown, W. J. (Wolverhampton, West) Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George Sandham, E. Buchanan, G. Lathan, G. Sawyer, G. F. Burgess, F. G. Law, Albert (Bolton) Scurr, John Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland) Law, A. (Rosendale) Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel (Norfolk, N.) Lawrence, Susan Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Caine, Derwent Hall- Lawson, John James Sherwood, G. H. Cameron, A. G. Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle) Shield, George William Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.) Leach, W. Shillaker, J. F. Charleton, H. C. Lees, J. Shinwell, E. Chater, Daniel Lloyd, C. Ellis Sinkinson, George Cluse, W. S. Longden, F. Smith, Alfred (Sunderland) Cocks, Frederick Seymour Lovat-Fraser, J. A. Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) Compton, Joseph Lowth, Thomas Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) Cove, William G. Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Daggar, George MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham) Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Dallas, George McElwee, A. Smith, Tom (Pontefract) Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) McEntee, V. L. Smith, W. R. (Norwich) Devlin, Joseph Mackinder, W. Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip Dickson, T. MacNeill-Weir, L. Snowden, Thomas (Accrington) Duncan, Charles McShane, John James Sorensen, R. Ede, James Chuter Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Spero, Dr. G. E. Edmunds, J. E. Mansfield, W. Stamford, Thomas W. Edwards, E. (Morpeth) March, S. Stephen, Campbell Egan, W. H. Marley, J. Strachey, E. J. St. Loe Freeman, Peter Mathers, George Strauss, G. R. Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) Matters, L. W. Sutton, J. E. Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.) Maxton, James Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln) Gill, T. H. Melville, Sir James Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S. W.) Gillett, George M. Messer, Fred Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby) Gosling, Harry Middleton, G. Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Gossling, A. G. Mills, J. E. Thurtle, Ernest Gould, F. Morgan, Dr. H. B. Tillott, Ben Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Morley, Ralph Tinker, John Joseph Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne) Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South) Townend, A. E. Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.) Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Mort, D. L. Turner, B.
Vaughan, D. J. Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. Winterton, G. E. (Leicester, Loughb'gh) Viant S. P. Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood) Wise, E. F. Wallace H. W. Whiteley, William (Blaydon) Wright, W. (Rutherglen) Wallhead Richard C. Williams, David (Swansea, East) Young, R. S. (Islington, North) Watkins, F. C. Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Wellock, Wilfred Wilson, J. (Oldham) Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. West, F. H. Wilson R. J. (Jarrow) Hayes. NOES. Albery, Irving James Fison, F. G. Clavering Muirhead, A. J. Astor, Viscountess Ford, Sir P. J. Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Atholl, Duchess of Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley) Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. O'Neill, Sir H. Balfour, George (Hampstead) Galbraith, J. F. W. Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet) Ganzoni, Sir John Peake, Capt. Osbert Balniel, Lord Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley) Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Glyn, Major R. G. C. Power, Sir John Cecil Bellairs, Commander Carlyon Grace, John Pownall, Sir Assheton Berry, Sir George Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Ramsbotham, H. Bevan, S. J. (Holborn) Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Rawson, sir Cooper Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter Reid, David D. (County Down) Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Renter, John R. Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart Gunston, Captain D. W. Rentoul, Sir Gervais S. Boyce, H. L. Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Bracken, B. Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Ross, Major Ronald D. Braithwaite, Major A. N. Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford) Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) Hammersley, S. S. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Hanbury, C. Salmon, Major I. Buckingham, Sir H. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Bullock, Captain Malcolm Hartington, Marquess of Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart Burton, Colonel H. W. Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D. Butler, R. A. Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by) Savery, S. S. Butt, Sir Alfred Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Carver, Major W. H. Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Smith-Carington. Neville W. Castle Stewart, Earl of Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. Smithers, Waldron Cautley, Sir Henry S. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Hurd, Percy A. Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East) Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Hurst, Sir Gerald B. Southby, Commander A. R. J. Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.) James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland) Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston) Kindersley, Major G. M. Stewart, W. J. (Belfast South) Christie, J. A. King, Commodore Rt. Hon. Henry D. Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F. Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Knox, Sir Alfred Thomson, Sir F. Cohen, Major J. Brunel Lamb, Sir J. Q. Tinne, J. A. Colville, Major D. J. Lane Fox, Rt. Hon. George R. Todd, Capt. A. J. Conway, Sir W. Martin Law, Sir Alfred (Derby, High Peak) Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. Leighton, Major B. E. P. Turton, Robert Hugh Cranbourne, Viscount Lewis, Oswald (Colchester) Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Llewellin, Major J. J. Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey) Croom-Johnson, R. P. Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West) Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th) Wardlaw-Milne, J. S. Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Long, Major Eric Warrender, Sir Victor Dairymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Waterhouse, Captain Charles Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford) Macquisten. F. A. Wayland, Sir William A. Davies, Dr. Vernon Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) Wells, Sydney R. Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil) Makins, Brigadier-General E. Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Dawson, Sir Philip Marjoribanks, E. C. Withers, Sir John James Duckworth. G. A. V. Meller, R. J. Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount Dugdale, Capt. T. L. Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Womersley, W. J. Eden, Captain Anthony Mitchell-Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley Elliot, Major Walter E. Mond, Hon. Henry Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-S. M.) Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. Everard, W. Lindsay Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Falle, Sir Bertram G. Morrison Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury) Sir George Penny and Captain Ferguson, Sir John Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirenceter) Margesson
On a point of Order, Mr. Chairman. Am I in order in moving that the Committee now adjourn—
Order.
— now report progress, in order that I may have an opportunity of moving that you are not a fit person to occupy the Chair.
Mr. Brockway.
Answer the question.
Mr. Chairman, I asked for Ruling, and I want a Ruling. I have raised a point of Order, and I want a Ruling on it, and, if you know your duty, you will give a Ruling before proceeding with the next business.
The right hon. Gentleman should know that he cannot call in question the Chairman's conduct in the way in which he proposes to do it at this moment.
Mr. Chairman, I suppose I am in order in giving notice that I will consider taking the proper steps to move that the Committee be put under the presidency of an impartial Chairman?
Clause 2, Mr. Brockway.
CLAUSE 2.—(Rates of benefit.)
On a point of Order, Mr. Chairman. Can you, for the convenience of the Committee, give us some indication of the Amendments that you propose to take on Clause 2?
I intend to take the Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for East Leyton (Mr. Brockway) —in page 1, line 21, at the beginning, to insert the words "as from the first day of February, nineteen hundred and thirty"—and the Amendment in the name of the Noble Lord the Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton)—to leave out Sub-section (1). Of the Amendments on the next page of the Order Paper, I propose to take that in the name of the hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood)—in page 1, line 21, to leave out the words "not attained the age of twenty-one" and to insert instead thereof the words "attained the age of eighteen"—and the Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Camlachie (Mr. Stephen)—in page 2, line 3, at the end, to insert the words:
"1a. Rates of contribution in case of employers.
As from the commencement of this Act the rates of contribution payable by the employer shall be increased by one penny per week in the case of the contribution payable in respect of each employé, and no additional Exchequer payment is to be made in respect of this additional rate."
Do I understand, Mr. Chairman, that you are not going to take the Amendment in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Devonport (Mr. Hore-Belisha)—in page 2, line 3, at the end, to insert the words:
(2) The benefits payable in respect of any person who has not attained the age of sixteen years shall be payable to the claim- ant's mother in such manner as the Minister by regulations made under the principal Act shall direct; provided that in cases where the claimant does not reside with his mother or where the Minister is satisfied that for some other reason the payment of benefit to the claimant's mother is undesirable the benefits shall be payable to the claimant or to such other person as the Minister, having regard to all the circumstances, shall by regulations authorise."
No. That should be put down as a new Clause.
May I submit with great respect, Sir, that your Ruling will put us in a great difficulty, because this Amendment proposes to insert a proviso to this Clause. Once this Clause has passed this Committee, the Amendment will have no virtue as a new Clause, and many of my hon. Friends will find great difficulty in supporting this Clause if they cannot insert this proviso at the proper place.
That is not a point of order.
On a point of Order. You have said that you are taking the Amendment of the hon. Member for East Leyton (Mr. Brockway), and, if you look at the Amendment in the name of the Noble Lord the Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton)—to leave out Subsection (1)—I take it the previous Amendment will be shut out?
On a point of Order. In regard to my Amendment, to leave out Sub-section (1), and to insert certain rates of benefit, on what ground is that not to be taken, as it appears, to me to be the only Amendment designed to enable us to take a vote on the amount of benefit?
The Chairman is. not under any necessity of giving any reason for not taking any Amendment, but the correct place for the hon. Member's Amendment is as an Amendment to the First Schedule.
Would it not be for the convenience of the Committee and facilitate business if the Chairman were to take the Committee into his confidence and intimate on what line of thought he is proceeding in the selection, of the Amendments?
Mr. Brockway.
On a point of Order. I want to ask whether it is not within the competence of the Committee to transpose material which appears in 'the Schedule into the body of the Bill if it so desires, more especially if that facilitates discussion by making the purpose of the Amendment clear. In these circumstances, I beg to ask that you will allow us to debate my Amendment.
The Amendment of the hon. Member is properly an Amendment to the Schedule.
No. With great respect—
Order!
Therefore, I was not selecting the Amendment, and I am not departing from that Ruling.
With great respect, I submit that you cannot alter the Schedule to the Bill without first altering the governing Clause which controls the Schedule, and, if an Amendment is so designed as to do both at once, that fact ought not to make the Amendment out of order.
I have given my ruling.
On a point of Order. I want to ask a question, with very great respect. I would not question your ruling for one moment, but, when we come to the place of my Amendment on the Order Paper, may I submit at that stage a reason to show you why it might be called?
The hon. Member has already approached me. I may draw his attention to the fact that Clause 2 deals with rates of benefit and not with any other persons who are not contributors getting benefit.
Certainly, that is my point, and that is why I wish to move the Amendment, so that the payments can be made to the right persons.
Mr. Brockway.
I beg to move, in page 1, line 21, at the beginning, to insert the words: My object is not one of obstruction, and, therefore, I shall be brief, but I hope the right hon. Lady, if I am brief, will realise the earnestness and sincerity with which I am moving this Amendment. The supreme fact that this Committee has to face is that during the winter months we shall have in our midst at least 1,000,000 unemployed persons, and, that being so, it seems to us that at the earliest moment possible something should be done to change the present administration of the Unemployment Insurance Act and to allow more honourable benefits to those who suffer from unemployment. Under the terms of this Bill as drafted, none of the advantages of the Bill will come into operation until 13th March next year, and we do not feel that the immediate winter months ought to pass by without some amelioration taking place in the conditions of those who are unemployed. Therefore, we have put down this Amendment, hoping very much that in response to it the Minister may be able to make some statement which will enable the advantages of the Measure to take effect earlier.
I raised this matter during the Second Reading of the Bill, and, in reply, the right hon. Lady explained that she was anxious, when the Bill began to operate, that the qualifying period of six weeks should have been served, so that all might be able to benefit from the Bill. I want to put two points strongly on that matter. Is there any reason why that qualifying period of six weeks should not begin to operate from the actual date of the passage of the Bill; and, in addition to that, is there any reason why the other advantages of the Bill should not apply to other persons earlier than that date? This Bill deals with eight substantial points, either in the present Clauses or in Amendments to those Clauses. It deals with insurance benefit, with their extension to dependants, with not genuinely seeking work, with the disqualification period, with Amendments to the waiting period, with the transition conditions, and with the provisional period; and I put it strongly to the right hon. Lady that even if some of those advantages must be postponed to a later date, it is very urgent that what advantages can be operated as early as possible after the passage of this Bill should be put into effect.
Many of us, when we were returned to this House in May last, felt that this problem of unemployment was one of the utmost urgency. We admit that in the administration of the Act something has been done to lessen hardships, but we shall be bitterly disappointed if, after the return of our party to the House of Commons, 10 months have to pass by before the benefits of this Bill come into operation. Therefore, with all the earnestness I can command, I make this plea to the right hon. Lady, and I hope that, in response to it, she may be able to say something which will indicate that the Government will be able to put into operation whatever Clauses are possible before the very late date now included in the Bill.
Any Minister would be glad to be in a position immediately to respond to such an eloquent and such a reasonable speech as the one to which we have just listened from the hon. Member for East Leyton (Mr. Brockway), but I am in the unhappy position of having to steel my heart against this plea for a relaxation of the dates fixed in the Bill. The actual proposal, if taken strictly in the terms of the Amendment, means a sum of somewhere round about £50,000, but quite obviously the Mover of the Amendment would not regard that as a satisfactory reply to his speech. It would not be consistent to stop at that point, and therefore the problem I am, facing is the problem of bringing the whole of the benefits of the Bill forward by six weeks. That means a quarter of a million of money, and I am very sorry indeed that it is not possible for me to reconsider the date from that standpoint. It was with the greatest care that we made our calculations, and it is with the greatest care that we have tried to budget so that we did not ask for more money than we believe to be essential to make the quite small improvements to the Act and to carry us over the period of uncertainty in regard to the numbers on the unemployment registers who are entitled to benefit, and who will be continuously entitled to benefit under the provisions of this Bill. It is for that reason that, with very deep regret, I have to say that I cannot accept the Amendment.
The right hon. Lady has excused us from the necessity for arguing upon the merits of the Amendment, because she herself says that she would like to do what the Amendment suggests and is only restrained from doing it by considerations of cost. Because of that, it is with considerations of cost that I propose to deal. The right hon. Lady says that the cost of the Amendment, carried to its logical conclusion, would be in the neighbourhood of £250,000, and the same argument about cost has been used to justify, not only the date from which the Measure shall take effect, but the scale of benefits proposed to be given by the Act, and we are driven, whether we like it or not, to face up to the question of the cost that is involved in this Bill and to set it in relation to costs that have been incurred by the Government in other connections.
During the last election, pledges were given on all sides without too great a care as to what the pledges would mean when they came to be fulfilled. Many candidates, of many parties, including my own, gave pledges which were personal pledges rather than party pledges, and I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Government as a whole are entitled to say that they are not obliged to honour personal pledges of that kind; but there is a tremendous distinction between personal pledges and party pledges, and it does so happen that the one issue upon which our pledges as a party were more specific possibly than any other issue was the question of the treatment of the unemployed in this country.
That point will emerge with great clearness when we get on to the other Amendments dealing with the amount of benefit, for it is the case that the pledges which we made in regard to the amount of benefit were pledges which we were expressly authorised to make by the Prime Minister. That does not apply in specific form to the particular Amendment which we are now discussing; that is to say, there was no party pledge that the date of operation of this Bill should be 1st February rather than a date about the middle of March; but I do not hesitate to say that we are morally committed, whether we are technically committed or not, to make the benefits of this Bill available to the unemployed at the earliest possible moment. If candidates of our party at the last Election had said, "We will give you in relation to unemployment not 'Labour and the Nation,' not the Prime Minister's statement at the Birmingham Conference, but an instalment of an instalment, and we will defer payment of that instalment until the winter is practically over"— because that is what is involved—there would have been a substantially smaller number of votes for us than there were.
I come to the last point, which is: Can we afford the money? In discussions upon other Amendments, we have been told that Amendments which are expensive cannot be looked at because of the Chancellor's commitments for next year and for the next two years. We have been told, also, that the Chancellor inherits a financial situation from his predecessors, and that he has to work within the limits of that situation in dealing with expenditure during the current year. I repudiate the doctrine that the Chancellor's power to spend is limited to the amounts that he is left by his predecessors. I recollect occasion after occasion during the War period when Governments over-spent to the tune, not of £250,000, but of hundreds of millions, and they came to this House afterwards for covering approval of the expenditure which they had incurred. If we are entitled to over-spend for the destructive purposes of war to the tune of hundreds of millions of pounds, I submit, in view of our moral obligations to the unemployed, that we are entitled to spend this £250,000, even if it result in a deficit in the Budget situation at the end of the year. As a matter of fact, I would be content if the Government would do something else. If finance is the real difficulty, I would be happy if they said to us, "We cannot bring forward the date of operation of this Bill, but we will give under the Bill what we pledged ourselves to give." The overwhelming bulk of the expenditure involved in that would fall, not upon this year's Estimates at all, but upon those of next year. I question, however, whether that will be the reply when we come to deal with the later Clauses of the Bill.
I do not know that my own standard of political morality is higher than that of other hon. Members around me; probably there is a common level of honesty in these matters among most of us, to whichever party we belong. When it comes to dealing with the detailed Clauses of a Bill of this kind, however, I draw the sharpest possible distinction between pledges which a candidate gives on his own responsibility and pledges which he is authorised by his party to give. I want to say, not with a view of conveying the impression that those who sit with me are more sincere than those who sit on the Front Bench, but with a view to discharging a responsibility which we think attaches to us—and I want to say it with the utmost possible candour—that in my judgment, the moral responsibility that we incurred to the unemployed by our pledges in the last Election are not satisfied by the terms of this Bill, and are emphatically not satisfied in the deferment of the date of the benefits of the Bill until the winter is very nearly over.
I represent in the House of Commons a Parliamentary constituency in which one man in six and one working woman in six have been registered as unemployed during the past five or six years. I spend a good many of my week-ends and a good deal of my spare time among these people. I live in my division, and I know their sufferings. I went to these people in May, and I told them that I was asking their support to return me to Parliament, not merely in order that one Labour Member more should be here, but that by making their contribution to a national appeal which was being made by my party, we might be able once more to put the Labour party on the Treasury Bench. They responded to my appeal in an unprecedented manner; approximately 20,000 of these people Voted for me, and sent me here believing in the promises that I made. I made no rash promises to them; I have always advocated to them the claims of a Socialist order of society in preference to the present order: but I dealt with the practical means of immediately alleviating the sufferings of the unemployed, and I told them that, although I was not in whole-hearted agreement with what the Labour party had adopted in "Labour and the Nation," and that I had taken my part at the Labour Party Conference to criticise the moderation of that policy, I would, if I went to the House of Commons, be prepared to accept that as a first instalment of the better times which they might hope to get by voting for Labour candidates.
I made that promise in all sincerity; I made it with the conscientious feeling of obligation that I would have in making a promise to pay a debt. I felt that I was under the same moral obligation to reward these people for their support to me as I was to pay my co-operative society for the goods which they had delivered to my house in return for the order they had received from my household. Then I come here, and I am asked to believe that, although I may be expected to honour my promises and my pledges outside Parliament, Christianity and morality stop at the door of this Chamber, and that, once I get in here, I am to treat the poor in a manner in which I dare not treat my ordinary creditors. I am not posing as one who possesses any superior code of morality, but I say that that is down below the level of the very poorest section of our population. When we do not honour our pledges to the poor, it is a political method of robbing the poor. I am sent Here to protect the poor; I am not sent here to rob the poor.
What have we asked for in this Amendment? A sum of £50,000 in order that we may relieve the worst forms of destitution among the unemployed during the bitterest weeks of winter. When the late Government were in office, we criticised them severely, bitterly and earnestly because they had left the destitute poor to be relieved by charitable subscriptions. We said that that was the duty of the State, and that when we were in office we would see that the State meet its moral obligation to the destitute section of the community. We are not only in office, but we have before us a Bill and the machinery for doing to the very poorest of the poor the things that we claimed should have been done by the Conservatives 12 months ago. When this Bill comes into operation, the winter will be over. I know the condition of these people in weather like this. I do not want to inflict what is commonly called "sob stuff" on the Committee, but I will venture to go to this length: any hon. Members who had to bear with the weather that we have endured, say, over the week-end, particularly in the northern part of the country, and who were well fed, well clothed and comfortably housed, felt that there was a little suffering to be endured; but it is impossible for us to understand the condition of the people who have been under-fed for years, who are under-clothed, and have not the ordinary facilities for keeping their bodies clean, which we who live in comfortable circumstances have, and none of the means that civilisation has given of protecting themselves against the elements to which they are subject. I ask the Committee to think of these people in this sense, that they are the people we are asked to help.
When I think of the appeals made from Labour platforms by hon. Members to put their faith in us and shed their faith in the opposite side, and then come here and have to listen to a Minister of Labour telling us that she has to steel her heart against a demand of £50,000 from the Chancellor of the Exchequer to alleviate the worst forms of suffering among the poorest of the poor, it makes one almost burst with indignation at the dishonesty of politics. Why, in Heaven's name, do the people of this country, election after election, vote for a House of Commons? I am beginning to wonder why they have still any faith in politics. In election after election, they are asked not to adopt strike or industrial action, or adopt revolutionary methods, and not to listen to agitators who create confusion in society, but to settle matters reasonably and constitutionally and moderately by the Parliamentary machine. They accept your view, and yet, in 1929, they still put their faith in politics! And now they are reaping the reward of their innocence. [An HON. MEMBER: "Cheer up!"] It is easier for me to cheer up than it is for the people I represent. It is much easier for you to sit there to chatter and snarl than it would be if you were in the position of the people who have been unemployed, not for months, but for years.
I am here to represent these people. I am not here to represent my comfortable family, but to represent the people who sent me to Parliament because they believed in my honesty and in my capacity. They may have had some reason to doubt my capacity, but I will never justify any doubt in my political honesty. What I promised in May I plead for here. If I am defeated here in my appeal for aid for these poor people, I will damn in the country the people who defeated me in the House of Commons. We are told that if this Amendment were adopted it would follow that we should incur an additional expenditure of £250,000. That was said by the right hon. Lady in a manner to indicate that it is an expenditure not to be thought of when considering the needs of the poor. And she was sitting by the side of the Chancellor of the Exchequer! The right hon. Lady might have told us where the difficulty arose in finding £250,000 to help the unemployed over the worst weeks of the winter.
What has become of the £2,000,000 we won at the Hague? Where has that gone? We heard a great deal about the winning of it from the Germans, but we have not heard much about the unemployed in South Wales, in Scotland, on Tyneside or in Lancashire sharing in that £2,000,000. Is it unreasonable that in these first weeks of winter the people who are suffering most from the ravages of unemployment should get an instalment of £250,000, get 2s. 6d. in the pound of what was won at the Hague, just to celebrate the victory of the Labour Chancellor of the Exchequer? Does not the nation owe us a little for that wonderful victory? Did not we give the country the Chancellor of the Exchequer who won that glorious victory? Did not we make him what he is? Did not society make these suffering people of mine what they are, and is it honourable and becoming of the right hon. Gentleman to sit on the Treasury Bench with his hand on the cash box and refuse to hand over to the suffering poor 2s. 6d. in the pound of what he won at the Hague? I submit that it is not.
If this Amendment be pressed to a Division, I shall go into the Lobby in support of it against the Government; and I am going to do more. I am going into the country to tell the working class that my colleagues on these benches should have followed me into that Division Lobby. I am going to plead for something like honesty in politics, and I am going to ask the working class to believe that when they put their faith in politicians there are at least a group of Members in this House who will be true to their promises and their pledges.
The Committee have listened to the most remarkable series of indictments ever delivered against any Government by its own supporters. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] I venture to think that when the speeches which have just been listened to, and are approved by the hon. and gallant Member who sits below the Gangway, are considered, it will be discovered that there are in them epithets which have probably never been used of any Government by one of its own supporters in this House. We have heard of political dishonesty, we have heard of breaches of faith, we have heard of the absolute pledge of a party by which votes were secured being completely broken. Those are very serious words to use. When the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Shettleston (Mr. Wheatley) feels somewhat in despair owing to the action of his Government, he might compare the situation in the last Parliament with the present situation. It will be remembered that the leader of our party was so meticulous in carrying out his election pledges that, in face of a very large number of his own supporters, he was absolutely determined not to go a word beyond his pledges. To-night we hear that those sitting on the Treasury Bench have absolutely repudiated the pledges upon which they were elected and upon which they gained their large majority.
I want to intervene only for a moment because the Members on the Treasury Bench are so obviously squirming at what is said from their own back benches that I have been afraid that they might, as they have done before, trim their sails in order to meet the blasts which come from behind them. The Committee and the country ought to realise, when this Amendment is brought forward, that the fruits of the long-fought fight for economy during the past eight or ten years, which hon. Gentlemen opposite opposed then and which the members of the Liberal party regarded as inadequate, have already been completely sacrificed; that under the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who is leading this country down the slippery slope of financial insanity, the whole of those savings have in a few weeks been completely wiped away.
There may be some in this country who still imagine that there is a bottomless pit from which we can draw money in order to finance such proposals as are contained in this Amendment. I would remind the House of a speech which I heard the Chancellor of the Exchequer make some 20 years ago when I first entered this House, in which he stated that all taxation ultimately falls upon the poorest in the land. The sooner the hon. Members who now sit behind him realise that that statement is as true today as it was when he made it, the better it will be for the country, because all these increased burdens will make our last state worse than the first. They may appeal to those who have revolutionary ideas, because they must cause distress. There is only one hope for the recovery of this country, and that is by the practice of the strictest economy and by providing work for our people instead of pouring out these doles.
I do not want to follow the hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft) very far in his argument, though I would remind him that during the election I saw a poster issued by the official Conservative party—not by the National party—setting out how much the Conservative party had spent in social services—the increasing sums which they had spent on them each year. Therefore, if our Chancellor of the Exchequer is spending money, at least it can be also said that the Tory Chancellor of the Exchequer spent increasing sums each year on social services.
We actually succeeded, though I know with great difficulty, in economizing in the long run, but you are going in the opposite direction.
The hon. and gallant Member says his party succeeded in economising. May I remind him that we are economising also. The point the hon. and gallant Member made was that we are spending money on social services. The Conservative party spent £4,000,000 per annum on widows' pensions out of national funds, and they increased the allowance to the wife under unemployment insurance by exactly the same amount as we are proposing to increase it here. From that point of view I think the hon. and gallant Gentleman might recast his political knowledge.
The Amendment under consideration proposes that we should bring forward the benefits given under this Bill to the beginning of February. At the present time the Bill does not begin to operate until the middle of March. After the speech by the hon. Member for West Leyton (Mr. Sorensen) I expected the right hon. Lady would have something to say, other than a reference to mere money, as to why it was impossible to advance the date of the benefits. It might be as well if I stated why I support the Amendment. In the first place, I think those who put down the Amendment were very moderate, and that they could foe criticised for not asking that the benefits should start immediately after the Bill becomes law, or at least from the beginning of the year. What are the benefits under this Bill? The real benefits are three-fold. First of all an increase is given to the juveniles, there is an increase of 2s. to the wife, and, lastly, there is a concession to those who fall within the transitional period. Those are the three benefits which we want advanced by six weeks.
7.0 p.m.
What is the big benefit? The big benefit is not the increase to the juveniles—I shall have something to say about that later on—neither is it the concession of 2s. to wives—at least that is not a very heavy financial commitment. The great financial commitment is the concession that is made to those who come within the transitional period. What we are appealing for here is not so much any increase of benefit, not any increase to a particular individual. In reality the only thing this Amendment does is to give something to the miners in Wales and in Scotland—and bear in mind that 50 per cent. of the men who are in the transitional class come from the mining community. At present they have under decision 5061, no right of appeal and are permanently refused benefit until this Bill passes, but those men who are refused unemployment benefit even on the miserable scale at present given them ought to get benefit on the new scale from the beginning of February. When it is said that this will cost £250,000, I would say to the hon. and gallant Member that the unemployed do not get the £250,000. The unemployed do not get even the £50,000. £200,000 is not so much for the unemployed as for relieving the Unemployment Fund of getting further into debt. It is merely £200,000 saved to the fund. Let us take the other £50,000. One would have thought from the hon. and gallant gentleman that it was to go to the unemployed. The great bulk of it will go to meet the demands constantly made by the present Minister of Health. At least 75 per cent. of the £50,000 will be swallowed up in a grant to the local rates. What is happening now is this. Society, even under a Labour Government, is not ready to say to the unemployed: "You are a nuisance, you ought to be shot, you ought to be dead." What it says is: "This fund cannot bear you. There is a Poor Law and, until the new Act comes into force, those of you who are refused benefit under the transitional clauses must go on the local Poor Law funds until the Act comes into force." Thus a large proportion of this money would go to relieve the local ratepayers. The very most we are asking for the unemployed, for the starving people to whom my hon. Friend has referred, for the parents and those dependent upon them, is about £25,000. The rest either goes to save the fund from getting into debt, or to relieve the local authorities from payment of poor relief.
Just imagine that in this Bill the first concession asked for by a section of the Labour party is not that the 2s. should be made 3s., the 9s. should be made 10s., the 15s. should be made 18s., or the 17s. should be made 20s. The first concession we ask is merely that for six weeks the Government should bring within the ambit of this Bill those who have largely come out under the transitional Clause. They talk about speed and are always warning us to go slowly. On the Clyde we have a notice in the Division of the hon. and gallant Member for Kelvingrove (Major Elliot) which says "Dead slow." We are not going slow, but dead slow. We are asking only for six weeks, and the Government says "No." I remember the Prime Minister saying: "Let us have a Council of State; let us pool our brains together. No reasonable Amendment will be refused." What could be more reasonable than this? Is there a better or more reasonable Amendment that will cost less than this? Yet we are being refused, not on moral or humanitarian grounds or on just grounds, or on the grounds that these people are not deserving, but on one ground only, the financial ground. I almost wish it had been the Tories who had made this refusal to us. The speeches we make are moderate to the speeches that our Front Bench would make to the Tories. Every person who was in the last House knows that. I would say to the Conservative party, "Have you learned nothing from the last Election? Are you to go on saying that there is no money for the poor?" If they do that, it will cost them their seats, and that attitude will cost every party their seats.
We are starting at the beginning of this Bill with a very reasonable and moderate Amendment. I am, as I have often said, a very moderate, reasonable and compromising Member of the House of Commons. Anyone who has sat in Committee with me in the House or on the town council or in my union knows that I am prepared to compromise, and that I gave evidence to enable a compromise to be found before the Morris Committee. If we had not wanted to compromise, we should have proposed to start these benefits from the moment the Bill passed. Instead we are asking for them from 1st February, but we are refused. Those who refuse us have no great credit in their refusal. I will go into the division lobby reluctantly, because all of us, young and old, who have spent a considerable portion of our life in the party have built it up, have made it what it is, are reluctant to go into the Lobby against the party. But one has one's duties and one's obligations, and I choose to perform my solemn duty and carry out my obligation to the poor rather than support people who refuse to carry out their party's principles.
I can assure the Committee that it gives me no great pleasure to find myself compelled to stand here under the necessity of having to support this Amendment. The taunts from the other side of the Committee as to what may or may not be true about the programme of this party leaves me cold. I have spent too much of my political life pointing out the failures of other parties to keep their pledges, not to urge my own party to keep theirs. I would point out to the occupants of the Government Front Bench that they need not have much fear about accepting amendments of this description. I know, of course, that in various parts of the country, in this House, and even among Members of the party there is a feeling that the Government are in office but not in power. I do not accept that point of view. I believe the Government are in a very powerful position. Three times already there has been a very powerful combination against them, but they have escaped defeat. The power of the Labour party in this House consists of the expectations of the masses of the people behind them. I would say to hon. Members of both parties opposite that they dare not at this early stage in the life of this Parliament defeat the expectations which the access to office of this party has aroused among the people. They may not like what the Government are doing, but they dare not defeat them and rob the people of the hopes which they have placed in the legislation which this party will bring in. Their hopes and their expectations are in this party. That is why I and my friends are supporting this Amendment, because we know that the only power in this country that can defeat this party is its failure to carry out its pledges.
With regard to this particular Amendment, I never expected that I should have heard the right hon. Lady turn this Amendment down on the plea that it would cost £250,000. Might I remind her that in July the House voted £60,000 for the purchase of two pictures, which comparatively few people will see? While it may be very nice to know that the country now possesses two art treasures of tremendous aesthetic value, I am quite sure that, if I were to tell men in my division who had been unemployed for six years, that the money could be found for two pictures but that we could not find £200,000 to advance these benefits by six weeks, they would laugh at me, and would want to know what I was doing here, and why I did not raise my voice in protest. What is the object of this Amendment? The Bill comes into operation on 13th March. If it is going to cost, as the right hon. Lady says, £250,000 to the Exchequer to put it into operation six weeks earlier, I am convinced that, if an attempt were made, this paltry amount of £250,000 could be found. If these benefits were simply payable to unemployed men who, through the exigencies of the weather or through some vagary of trade, after having done six or seven months work then found themselves unemployed for a fortnight or three weeks, if it referred solely to a number of men who were continually in and out of employment, I would not be bothering my head about it. I have had to face that sort of thing myself under worse conditions. While I am not saying any man should go through that, still that has to be considered in such an Amendment as this. I have to face the fact that I have constituents who have been out of work six years. With them it is not a question of just keeping their head above water for two or three weeks, of keeping their credit good with the shopkeeper or co-operative society. We are dealing with men whose credit is broke, whose homes are destroyed, whose future is dark, and whose present is blasted.
I want this small advantage made available to them at the earliest possible moment. I plead with our Front Bench to make this small concession in order to help these men through one of the bitterest months of the year. I hope February next year will not be like February of this year. In the district that I represent, in Glamorgan or Monmouthshire, with the Lord Mayor's charity fund broken down, with no aid and no help for these men, I want the Government at the earliest possible moment to bring whatever they can, even though it is only a few shillings, to the help of these people who have suffered far too long and far too meekly. You cannot expect them to continue to starve in the midst of what they know, after all, to be a country which is enormously rich, where trade is prosperous, where fortunes are being piled up, where the Stock Exchange returns show that trade is good so far as a large number of people are concerned. I am quite sure that if the occupants of the Front Bench were to put their considering caps on for a moment to two, they would see the wisdom contained in this Amendment and would advance this Bill six weeks, and thus give a small measure of hope to the people who will have to face a bitter February and help them to tide over the worst period of the winter.
I still have hope that we may be able to persuade our Front Bench to assent to this small but very important Amendment—small so far as the Government is concerned, but very important so far as the victims of unemployment are concerned. I must confess that I heard with surprise the statement made by the Minister of Labour as to the necessity, on her part, for steeling her heart, because as I heard her words I had a vivid picture in my mind of the overwhelming number of Members on these benches who, during the period of the year of which we are now talking, over and over again have ground their teeth and have cursed this House when they have seen their brothers and sisters unemployed and facing the winter weather underfed and underclad. The period of the year that we are discussing is the most deadly period of the year. It is the period that gives us the highest death-rate every year throughout the country. The high rate of mortality then is due to many reasons, but one of the reasons is the under-feeding of those who have been persistently underfed during the preceding period. Well-fed people who can rest a fortnight or more, because of their physique can battle through, but the under-fed have no physique to enable them to stand their trying experiences.
I represent a constituency where the unemployment is represented by a figure of 22 per cent. I do not want to consider this matter simply from the point of view of my own constituency, but to deal with it from the point of view of the whole of the unemployed of the country, and particularly those in the northern parts of the country where the winter weather is so much more severe than in the south. We on these benches have seen our own people over and over again in hail and
snow and frost tramping from one place to another not only with nothing in their stomachs but with nothing on their backs. That, it may be suggested, does no serious damage to physique and health during the milder parts of the year, but no one will deny that it has a serious effect on the death-rate during the winter period of the year. Our party have always been more interested in health matters than any other party in the House, and have always declared that if ever an opportunity came to do the right thing by the people it would see that work done. The Minister finds herself unable to accept the Amendment. If she will consult her colleague the Minister of Health, she will find that the period of the year that we are now trying to cover by our Amendment is the period of the highest death-rate amongst men, women and children, and that it provides us with an increasing number of consumptives who have to be treated in sanatoria at public expense. These people have a right to look to us for protection.
I regret that it should be necessary to express again our disappointment that so trifling a thing as this Amendment should be the cause of any trouble, so far as our Front Bench is concerned. There is no one on the Front Bench who believes that the finding of £250,000 would present any difficulty; there is no one who does not know that ten times as much could be found if it was required and desired by the Front Bench. The only thing of which there is no shortage in this country is wealth on the one hand and poverty on the other. The wealth which would be required to help those who are in poverty is here in superabundance. We have the right and duty to take it for those who are unable to take it for themselves.
Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 33: Noes, 222.
Division No. 64.] AYES. [7.22 p.m. Aske, Sir Robert Harbord, A. Morgan, Dr. H. B. Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley) Harris, Percy A. Nathan, Major H. L. Beckett, John (Camberwell, Peckham) Hore-Belisha, Leslie Ramsay, T. B. Wilson Brown, Ernest (Leith) Hunter, Dr. Joseph Sandham, E. Brown, W. J. (Wolverhampton, West) Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. Shakespeare, Geoffrey H. Buchanan, G. Kedward, R. M. (Kent, Ashford) Sinclair, Sir A. (Caithness) Cove, William G. Kelly, W. T. Wallhead, Richard C. Devlin, Joseph Kinley, J. Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. Dudgeon, Major C. R. Kirkwood, D. White, H. G. Granville, E. Lees, J. Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.) Lovat-Fraser, J. A. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Groves, Thomas E. Maxton, James Mr. Brockway and Mr. Stephen.
NOES. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford) Pole, Major D. G. Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn) Potts, John S. Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Hartshorn. Rt. Hon. Vernon Price, M. P. Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro') Hastings, Dr. Somerville Pybus, Percy John Angell, Norman Haycock, A. W. Quibell, D. J. K. Arnott, John Hayday, Arthur Rathbone, Eleanor Attlee, Clement Richard Hayes, John Henry Raynes, W. R. Ayles, Walter Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Richards, R. Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Henderson, Arthur, junr. (Cardiff, S.) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Barnes, Alfred John Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) Riley, Ben (Dewsbury) Bellamy, Albert Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees) Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood Herriotts, J. Ritson, J. Bennett, Captain E. N. (Cardiff, Central) Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth) Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) Bennett, William (Battersea, South) Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Romeril, H. G. Benson, G. Hoffman, P. C. Rosbotham, D. S. T. Bentham, Dr. Ethel Hollins, A. Rowson, Guy Bevan, Aneurln (Ebbw Vale) Hopkin, Daniel Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter Birkett, W. Norman Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) Salter, Dr. Alfred Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret Isaacs, George Samuel, H. W. (Swansea, West) Bowen, J. W. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Sanders, W. S. Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. John, William (Rhondda, West) Sawyer, G. F. Broad, Francis Alfred Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne) Scurr, John Bromfield, William Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Sexton, James Bromley, J. Jowitt, Rt. Hon. Sir W. A. Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Brooke, W. Kennedy, Thomas Sherwood, G. H. Brothers, M. Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Shield, George William Brown, C. W. E. (Notts, Mansfield) Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton) Shillaker, J. F. Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George Shinwell, E. Burgess, F. G. Lathan, G. Simon, E. D. (Manch'ter, Withington) Burgin, Dr. E. L. Law, Albert (Bolton) Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland) Law, A. (Rosendale) Sinkinson, George Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel (Norfolk, N.) Lawrence, Susan Sitch, Charles H. Cameron, A. G. Lawrle, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge) Smith, Alfred (Sunderland) Cape, Thomas Lawson, John James Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.) Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle) Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) Charleton, H. C. Leach, W. Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Chater, Daniel Leighton, Major B. E. P. Smith, Tom (Pontefract) Clarke, J. S. Lloyd, C. Ellis Smith, W. R. (Norwich) Cluse, W. S. Lovat-Fraser, J. A. Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip Cocks, Frederick Seymour Lowth, Thomas Sorensen, R. Compton, Joseph Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) Spero, Dr. G. E. Daggar, George MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham) Stamford, Thomas W. Dallas, George McElwee, A. Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) McEntee, V. L. Strauss, G. R. Day, Harry Mackinder, W. Sutton, J. E. Denman, Hon. R. D. McKinlay, A. Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln) Dickson, T. MacLaren, Andrew Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S. W.) Dukes, C. MacNeill-Weir, L. Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby) Duncan, Charles Mansfield, W. Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Ede, James Chuter March, S. Thurtle, Ernest Edge, Sir William Markham, S. F. Tinker, John Joseph Edmunds, J. E. Mathers, George Tout, W. J. Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Melville, Sir James Townend, A. E. Edwards, E. (Morpeth) Messer, Fred Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Egan, W. H. Mills, J. E. Turner, B. Foot, Isaac Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Vaughan, D. J. Freeman, Peter Moore, Sir Newton J. (Richmond) Viant, S. P. Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh) Wallace, H. W. Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.) Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South) Watkins, F. C. George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.) Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Gill, T. H. Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Gillett, George M. Moty, D. L. Wellock, Wilfred Glassey, A. E. Mosley, Sir Oswald (Smethwick) Welsh, James (Paisley) Gosling, Harry Muff, G. Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birnl., Ladywood) Gossling, A. G. Murnin, Hugh Wilkinson, Ellen C. Gould, F. Naylor, T. E. Williams, David (Swansea, East) Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne). Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston) Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Palin, John Henry Wilson, J. (Oldham) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Palmer, E. T. Wilson R. J. (Jarrow) Grundy, Thomas W. Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Wright, W. (Rutherglen) Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Perry, S. F. Young, R. S. (Islington, North) Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Phillips, Dr. Marlon TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Hall, Capt. W. P. (Portsmouth, C.) Picton-Turbervill, Edith Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Paling.
It being after half-past Seven of the Clock, and leave having been given to move the Adjournment of the House under Standing Order No. 10, further Proceeding was postponed, without Question put.
Electoral Law (Conference)
I beg to move, "That this House do now adjourn."
I regret very much having to address the House at all on this subject, but I have no alternative. It was on the 26th November that I first learned that Lord Hewart was selected as a member of the conference over which Lord Ullswater is to preside. The next day I wrote, on behalf of my colleagues, to the Prime Minister and lodged an objection. I have done what I could, and this matter might have been closed without it having to be brought before the House. It was with some little surprise that I heard to-day, in answer to a question, that the name was still on the list, and I have no alternative but to raise it here as the Conference is to be held on Wednesday. I want to say at the outset that there is no personal feeling of any kind in this matter. With regard to Lord Hewart himself, no one has a greater admiration for his character and his attainments than I have, and I have had the honour to enjoy his personal friendship for many years. It is not to him, as Lord Hewart, that I have any objection. My objection is one of principle— to any member of the Judicial Bench being employed on any committee or commission where his selection depends upon his politics.
Whatever the functions of the Ullswater Conference may be—and it is possible to argue even that they may not be in the party sense political—yet the fact remains that the Conference consists of a body of men chosen on three panels, and the three panels contain men who belong to the three parties in the State. Their names, in each case, have been sent up for selection to Lord Ullswater by the Leaders of these three parties. It is in that capacity that we, on this side of the House, have the strongest objection to the name of anyone holding high judicial provision being suggested. My objection would have prevented me from suggesting the name, for instance, of Lord Sumner. I should have raised the same objection as I have done in the case of Lord Hewart had Sir Henry Slesser, who was in this House, been suggested from the Labour benches. There is nothing party in my objection. It is on the ground of principle. I am only sorry that it has been necessary to raise it. I cannot help feeling that even now the party below the Gangway—although they may not entirely sympathise with the objections which I have felt bound to express —may, in these circumstances, be willing to withdraw this name. If that should be the case, I hope, for my part, that the Debate may not be prolonged, for it is not a Debate in which the House of Commons can take any pleasure, and it is not a Debate that will do any good.
Before I read a letter which I have just received from the Lord Chief Justice, I think it is right that, in fairness to him, I should make a short statement. Whatever responsibility there is in that nomination, is entirely mine and that of my colleagues. It was at our request that Lord Hewart was good enough to allow his name to be put forward. Therefore, we accept full responsibility for the suggestion that was made. We were under the impression that this is a purely non-party inquiry into a very vital constitutional question. We were encouraged in that belief by the attitude of the Prime Minister when we first put the matter before him in this House, and also, as I understood it, by the attitude of the Leader of the Opposition, in which they made it clear that so far as they were concerned this investigation should be conducted without any parti pris on either side. I was not aware that it was a subject of party controversy on any side.
It is a very difficult and very complicated matter, a matter in which there are a great many suggestions put forward, and I thought it was generally accepted that it was desirable that you should have a non-party investigation into the whole problem. I was further encouraged in that by the fact that there was a precedent in 1917 when a similar Committee was set up. The Gentleman who presided over that Committee was a Gentleman who certainly could not have taken part in any inquiry which involved a dispute between the parties, and that was the Speaker of the House of Commons. Lord Ullswater was then Mr. Lowther, and he was at that time Speaker of the House of Commons. Had the subject matter of that inquiry been a matter where the parties were concerned in which there was a conflict of party views, he certainly could not have taken part in it, and he certainly could not have presided over it.
Therefore, I was encouraged to think that this was a purely non-party investigation into a constitutional matter of very great difficulty, and that we were justified in asking a constitutional authority of the eminence of the Lord Chief Justice, who in addition to his knowledge of the law has had very considerable experience in this House to allow us to submit his name to Lord Ullswater. The name appeared on the 26th November in all the papers. I do not say that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bewdley (Mr. S. Baldwin) saw the name, but it appeared in all the newspapers after the name had been sent in, and I never received any protests.
We took no notice of any reports until we received official notice from the Secretary to Lord Ullswater.
That, of course, is true. I am only stating, as a fact, that, although the name appeared in all the papers, including the Conservative papers, there had been no protest from any quarter, and I am just giving the reasons why I felt encouraged to proceed with the nomination. I did not realise that there would be any protest from any quarter at all. The right hon. Gentleman makes the point that this is a party nomination. What other means was there of getting the Lord Chief Justice or anybody else on? If the Government had chosen the representatives, it would not have been a party nomination. There were no other means by which we could submit this name unless the Conservative party or the Labour party submitted it. At any rate, that was the reason that we felt justified in submitting the name of the Lord Chief Justice, because it never entered our heads that this was a matter to be treated as a party matter in any sense of the term.
May I say, with regard to Lord Sumner, that I would never have dreamed of opposing such a nomination. I think he would have been a very valuable addition. The same applies to Sir Henry Slesser. There would have been nothing inappropriate in submitting his name for a committee of this kind; in fact, I should have thought that on a question of this kind you should have constitutional lawyers to assist the committee who had parted with the controversies of the hour, who knew politics, who knew the House of Commons, who knew something about elections, but who were removed from the party controversies of the hour. But objection has been taken, and, under these circumstances, I certainly would not be the one to press the Lord Chief Justice to continue his name, and subject himself to the animadversions which would undoubtedly have followed in a Debate of this kind. I am not blaming the right hon. Gentleman, but I thought there was going to be another opportunity, not a Debate, of discussing the matter when I think it could have been adjusted without any discussion at all on the Floor of the House. The fact that the question has been raised makes the whole issue a public matter. I have received this letter from the Lord Chief Justice:
"6.15 p.m.
"It has just come to my knowledge that objection is taken by the Conservative party to my acceptance of the invitation to join the Committee on Electoral Law Reform. I am bound to say that I am greatly surprised at this attitude. It never occurred to me that the Committee was a party Committee, or that the difficult problems with which it is concerned would be approached in a party spirit. Certainly, it is not in any such spirit that I should have approached them. The problems which have to be resolved do not seem to me to be at all connected with political partisanship. But the mere fact that the responsible leaders of one of the political parties take, and announce, the opposite view satisfies me that my better course is to have no part in the work of the Committee, and I propose at once to request Lord Ullswater to release me.
Yours sincerely,
HEWART."
I think it fair to the Lord Chief Justice to say what I have said in order to show that the responsibility was not his.
Perhaps the House, in view of the discussion which has taken place in relation to this controversy, will allow me to occupy its time for a few moments. When I learned of the appointment of this Commission to deal with the electoral system in this country and Northern Ireland, I understood that it was a non-party Commission, and, although I have felt deeply resentful that those of us who represent an important element in the electoral conditions in these Islands were not given representation upon that Committee, I left it to the good sense and judgment of this House and of the various parties to see that justice was done. I now learn, however, that this Committee is to be a party committee—a committee or commission which is to consist only of representatives of the various parties. If distinguished judicial functionaries, or men of great judicial experience or diplomatic service or men of training in these constitutional matters, had been added to the Committee, it would, undoubtedly, have given the impression to the people of the country that it was an attempt upon the part of all serious-minded men to approach the question of adjusting our electoral system and dealing with its perplexities in a manner that would meet with universal assent.
We in Northern Ireland are affected by any change in the electoral system here. When the Act of 1920 was passed, a Clause was inserted giving proportional representation to Northern Ireland as a guarantee to the minority that their interests would be safeguarded. But with that Clause there was another Clause which stated that it would be within the right of the Northern Ireland Parliament to repeal proportional representation, which was admittedly given as a concession to a minority constituting 33i per cent, of the population. That right and that concession were taken away; proportional representation was taken away—
I really do not see what that has to do with the actual Motion before the House.
Naturally, if I may say so with all respect, the work of this Committee dealing with changes in our electoral system will affect Northern Ireland, and to that extent I feel than I am entitled, within the ambit of the Rules of the House, to deal with this matter. I have only made these observations for the purpose of approaching another consideration which I would submit to the House. A Member from Northern Ireland has been made a member of this Commission, and one section of the people there, the minority to whom I have referred, are not to have any representation at all. I say, there- fore—and this is the only available opportunity that presents itself to me—that, if you are going to reconsider this whole matter, if the Leaders of the party opposite think it of sufficiently grave importance to raise as a matter of vital public and Parliamentary interest in this House the removal of the Lord Chief Justice of England from that Commission, then I claim, as a representative of the minority in Northern Ireland who will be vitally affected by any changes made in our electoral system, that I am entitled to call for a reconstitution of that Committee. Therefore, if the Prime Minister proposes to take any part in this Debate at all, or if, in the light of what has occurred to-day in this House, changes are to be made in the personnel and in the electoral and representative character of those who constitute this Committee, I make my plea and I enter my claim for just treatment in regard to it.
I did not intend to intervene, because I had no objection at all to make to the statement made either by the Leader of the Opposition or by my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George). They stated their case. The ending of the speech of the right hon. Gentleman indicated that we were still in negotiation up to the answer given by me in the House this afternoon. That is so, and I should like the House to understand that perfectly clearly. I will make a confession. One of the reasons why I was rather unwilling to announce the names was that I was not quite sure whether, as a matter of fact, Lord Hewart was still available, as I was waiting for a reply from my right hon. Friend to a question which I put to him late on Friday night. However, there it is. As regards my hon. Friend the Member for Fermanagh and Tyrone (Mr. Devlin), I am terribly sorry that we have been deprived of his presence here while this matter was being carried through its preliminary stages. Announcement after announcement has been made in this House about the setting up of this Committee, and the method by which it was to be set up; that we should confer together was perfectly well known in the House, and so on. But I should be very glad indeed, if there is any idea of appointing a mem- ber for Northern Ireland—I cannot make a pledge now, because—
If I may interrupt the Prime Minister, I would point out that there is a representative from Northern Ireland on the Commission, but he is the representative of one party in Northern Ireland, and I claim that we are entitled to representation.
My hon. Friend would have known, if he had followed the matter, that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Antrim (Sir H. O'Neill), who has been included in this Committee, is one of the representatives of the party opposite, and, if my hon. Friend had been here at the time and had raised his voice as he has raised it now, I am perfectly certain that something would have been done for the minority; but everything that has been done has been done with the co-operation of the Leaders of that party. I shall be very glad if they will express their views to me on the subject which he has just raised. I am very glad that we have come to the conclusion that we have, and I would now ask that we might get on with the business.
Perhaps I may just say one word. I do not think that the fact that I am a member of this Committee is due to the fact that I represent a Northern Ireland constituency, and I think that the hon. Member for Fermanagh and Tyrone (Mr. Devlin) is under a misapprehension, if I may say so. He seems to think that this Conference is going to consider the electoral laws which apply to the Parliament of Northern Ireland—
No; I beg the right hon. Gentleman's pardon. The electoral laws that are passed as a result of this Commission will be passed as the effect of the representation in the Imperial Parliament, and the Imperial Parliament only.
I am sorry if I made that mistake. As the hon. Member was not under any misapprehension, there is really nothing that I can usefully add.
Question, "That this House do now adjourn," put, and negatived.
Unemployment Insurance (No. 2) Bill
Again considered in Committee.
[Mr. DUNNICO in the Chair.]
Postponed Proceeding resumed on consideration of Clause 2.
I beg to move, in page 1, line 21, to leave out Subsection (1).
In moving this Amendment, I should like, for the convenience of the Committee, to raise a point of Order, or, rather, to ask you, on a point of Order, what your ruling is. I understood you to say, in reply to the hon. Member for one of the Divisions of Glasgow, who raised the matter, that you proposed to put the Question, "That the Clause, to the word 'persons,' stand part of the Bill." The point that I want to raise is this: My hon. Friends and myself wish to raise the whole question of the principle of this Sub-section, and I should like your ruling as to whether that will be in order. I imagine that the answer will be in the affirmative, but I should like, in asking your ruling, to point out that the Chairman of Committees has said, for the convenience of the Committee, that he is only going to call, I think, two other Amendments on this Sub-section, neither of which raises the question of principle in the way that my Amendment does.
The Noble Lord is quite in order in discussing the whole principle of the Sub-section. The only thing is that the Question will be put in such a way as to safeguard subsequent Amendments.
Thank you very much. That, if I may say so, was what I thought your ruling would be; I only wanted to get it quite clearly. The Sub-section with which we are here dealing is a very important part of the Bill, and my hon. and right hon. Friends who sit on this side are very strongly opposed to the proposals contained in it. I am well aware that hon. and right hon. Members opposite are equally strongly in favour of it, and I have no wish unnecessarily to exasperate them, but I am compelled, by the strong convictions which I hold as to the dangers of the Clause, to put our point of view on this side with all the force at my command. In the course of these Debates many hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite have given us their personal experiences of some period in their lives when they themselves met with the evil, and, indeed, the terrors, of unemployment, especially of juvenile unemployment; and I confess quite frankly that those personal experiences of hon. Members, told, as they often have been, with vivid simplicity, have made an impression on me. But the fact that most of them occurred in the hon. Members' youth, and that they overcame them and have risen, by their own grit and energy and initiative, to positions of honourable responsibility in this House and outside it, certainly does not supply any particular reason for this Sub-section. In fact, I should say that it was rather the other way, for, evil as unemployment is, and hard as we are all striving to overcome it, in youth, at any rate, it is no bar to ultimate success. That a youth should be unemployed and hard up on the one hand, or, on the other hand, that a youth should be unemployed and given full maintenance by the State without making any return, are both evil things, and I maintain that morally it is very hard to say which is the greater evil.
8.0 p.m.
Very many points arise on this very important Sub-section. The first of them which I should like to submit to the Committee is this: What is the logic of this Sub-section? It is not a proposal for full maintenance in lieu of work. The policy of work or full maintenance—which, incidentally, if it were in order to discuss it on this Sub-section, which I think it is not, would be a very interesting subject—is at any rate a logical policy, though we on this side think that it is a dangerous one; but it is not the policy of this Sub-section. The policy of work or full maintenance is, indeed, in my opinion, only possible if the State were to assume full responsibility for giving employment, because the cost to industry, through taxation, of the charge involved, would hit private enterprise so hard that the Government would have to make itself responsible for industry, or else unemployment would rise to unheard-of heights. What, then, is the logic of the proposal of the Sub-section? It has been suggested outside the House, in regard to female unemployment, that in some way the sums of money proposed to be paid affect morality. In my opinion that contention would be offensive if it were not so ludicrous. I hesitate to" consider what the attitude of mind is of those who can suggest that the virtue of the girls of this country is assessed at 2s. or 4s. per week.
I should like to ask another question. Why are practically all the increases in this Bill given to boys and girls—to youths and young women. Surely, the really hard and tragic case is that of the man or woman of 45 or over who finds himself or herself out of work. Whatever views any of us on either side may hold on the subject of unemployment, its causes and cures, no one, even with a heart of flint, could fail to feel compassion for the ageing man or woman who cannot get work and who knows that as each week or each day goes by, it is going to be harder to get it. Their labour unit is, so to speak, a decreasing unit. They may have a house and a young family and all the difficulties of leaving the locality and seeking work elsewhere that such a state of affairs involves. Those are not the people you are going to benefit in this Sub-section. I make no complaint about it, but I am rather sorry the Minister of Labour is not able to be here when we are considering this very important Sub-section, but I know the Under-Secretary will be a most efficient substitute and will doubtless report what occurs. That is what you are doing. There is much talk of youthful unemployment. Far be it from me to speak in any slighting way of it, but surely no tragedy of unemployment can be as great in normal healthy boys and girls of 20 or under as the tragedy of unemployment is to an ageing man or woman, and yet you are not proposing, except to a very limited degree, to assist those people.
I have said this is not a proposal for maintenance. We had the other day a very eloquent speech from the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) on the Second Reading in which he referred to what it cost to provide necessities for a child. There is nothing in this Sub-section which could possibly be taken as involving full maintenance. In other words, it does not provide sufficient to maintain a boy or girl at the standard of living which a self-respecting ambitious boy or girl would require. What it does is to offer a substantial sum in pocket to youths and girls of an unambitious character whose parents are able partly to support them, and thereby to lessen the impulse to seek work by leaving home and going out into the world to strike out for themselves.
To make them tramps.
I have never yet heard it suggested that when boys or girls go out into the world to seek their living, you are making tramps of them. The hon. Member's views are altogether different from mine. [ Interruption ]. I do not wish to notice the hon. Member's interruption. I appreciate the way other hon. Members are allowing me to state an argument with which they do not agree. The question whether the young people of this country—by which I mean those who would be affected by this Sub-section —are less adaptable, less ready to leave home to find work than remain and be the victim of circumstances than their forbears were, or than those in other countries are, is of vital importance to our whole position as an economic force, present and future. Some hon. Members may laugh and think that I am exaggerating, but when I was a young man, and after I came into the House, for my own interest and amusement I travelled about the United States, not always in a parlour car. I spent a short time in Mexico in a camp mainly manned by young men, and I was very much impressed with the adaptability of Americans of all classes. This was 20 years ago, and I am told that the tendency has increased very much. A young man in America who loses one job will travel hundreds of miles to find another. 'He will take any decent job that is offered him.
Was there one there when he arrived?
For me?
For the person who travelled. The problem here is that a man may travel several hundreds of miles to get a job, and, when he gets there, the job is not there.
I agree that it is difficult to make a comparison, but, when the hon. Member has heard me a little further, he will find that I am merely propounding these views for discussion, because I think they need consideration.
There is no virtue in travelling 200 or 300 miles for a job that is not there.
Obviously, there is no virtue in travelling 200 or 300 miles for a job that is not there, but, judging from what was said in the speeches of some of the hon. Members' leaders, after they have been six months in office the job ought to be there. That is my answer to that interruption. Let us leave out the question of the man who travels 200 or 300 miles. You find in America greater interchange of labour from one job to another than you get in this country. I am not arguing that it is a good or a bad thing. I might in some respects agree with hon. Members opposite on the subject, because I am by no means one who believes in the policy of the open shop which brings that about. Nevertheless, it is a fact that you get in America people of all classes who, if they are hard up, will be willing to take any job that is offered. It is a common thing for boys who are being educated at universities in their spare time to take on work as waiters and stewards,
We have to ask ourselves the question: Is it a fact that young men and women in depressed areas in this country are willing to go out into the world and seek their fortunes as their forbears were, and, if not, will the proposals in this Subsection make the position better or worse? On the answer ought to depend the fate of the Sub-section. I want to quote some very striking words used the other day by the Minister on this subject. She said: to raise his wages twice. As to the other—I do not think anyone will object to the story—I do not say it is typical, but it so illustrates the danger of what the Minister says that I must give it to the Committee, and I think it will interest the Minister. This lad came from a very depressed area in Wales. He was very highly recommended. I heard of him originally through an Employment Exchange, but I also heard of him through a philanthropic organisation. I paid his fare to my place in Sussex, and there was no question of getting it back. The wages offered were as good as he could earn in his mining employment. Arrangements were made with someone I know very well to board and lodge him. He arrived late one night, having been met at the station. He had never been away from home before. He was 18 years of age and had been out of work for something like a year. The next morning, long before breakfast, having borrowed the fare from the cottagers with whom he was staying, he went back to London. All he left was a verbal message to the effect that he felt homesick and lonely. There was a rather touching feature about the case. His sister, who had managed at great trouble, and after showing great energy, to obtain work in London, wrote to me that she deeply regretted the way that her brother had brought disgrace on the family and enclosed the value of his fare, which I need hardly say I returned. I do not say that cases like that are anything but exceptional. They sometimes occur under the present system, but I am certain that they do not occur in places like the United States, and I am equally certain, from my knowledge of the United States, that public opinion is very strong against that sort of thing. If a boy returned to his home town in America because he felt homesick, he would probably be called a "sissy" and told to buy a petticoat.
Is the Noble Lord suggesting that that is a natural sort of thing to be expected from the inferior sex?
Not in the least. On the contrary, I think persons belonging to the sex of the hon. Lady often stick to their jobs better than men do. I only say that in America they have rather different views on this subject from ours. I think I can say, too, that the attitude of mind towards these problems in America rather more resembles the attitude of mind of the people of this country 20 or 30 years ago than their attitude to-day. In the United States they seem to have a harder and rougher attitude in these matters than we have here. [ Interruption. ] If the hon. Member wishes to interrupt, perhaps he will rise on his feet, because I cannot distinguish what he says when he is sitting down.
If the case which the Noble Lord is quoting were inquired into strictly, it would probably be found that the reasons why the young man went back were quite different from those which he has given. I had a very similar case myself, and, when it was inquired into, the facts were found to be entirely different from what was alleged.
I cannot persuade the hon. Member. The lad left his work, and he made no complaint except that he felt lonely. I know the cottage in question in which he stayed, and there was nothing in the accommodation offered him there which could possibly offend him in any way. The hon. Member has not very graciously implied that the story which I gave is not a correct one. I say that it is correct in all particulars, but I do not wish to pursue that particular case. I was talking of the general principle with which the right hon. Lady herself dealt in her speech. I say that it is a danger which we have to keep carefully in mind. I have one further important question to raise in connection with this same matter. I say that it is a sinister fact, to put it no more strongly, that whenever there is a period of hard times in any new country overseas, a fact which must continually happen in all developing countries, we always read in the papers that it is the young men who have recently migrated from Great Britain who appear to make the worst of it. A case only occurred the other day in Toronto. There is, everybody knows, unemployment as a result of bad crops at the present time. We read in the papers that those employed in the right hon. Lady's own Department had come into conflict with the authorities and indeed the police in making their demands to be sent home. Why is it in a country like Canada, where there are thousands of citizens from Poland, Czechoslovakia, Germany, Holland, Norway and Sweden who are not making trouble, Englishmen—
It is because it is to the advantage of the English capitalist Press to run down these men whenever they possibly can. That is the reason.
I hope that the hon. Lady's explanation is the true one. I am not at all sure that it is. It is not only the English capitalist Press. I have seen the same things in the American Press. It is not to the advantage of the American Press to run down these people. I only say that, when considering a proposal of this kind, we have to bear that sort of fact in mind. I do not want to detain the Committee, but, quite apart from all the considerations which I have just urged and which I think are important, any proposal with respect to work or full maintenance appears to have no logic in it. You are really only doing something which will make the unambitious less ready to seek work without assisting the genuinely unemployed boy and girl who are out of work through no fault of their own.
Quite apart from all those aspects of the matter, I would like to put this main consideration to the Committee. Is this the time—and I hope that these facts will appeal to the members of the Liberal party whom I see below the Gangway—with the Unemployment Fund £37,000,000 in debt, paying, according to the right hon. Lady's own admission on the Financial Resolution the other day, £2,000,000 a year in interest, with the cost owing to the increase of unemployment going up each week, with the trade spurt of last spring and the, early summer apparently ended, to pay more out of State funds? I am sorry that, again, we have lost the great advantage of the presence of the right hon. Lady, but I will put this point to her most efficient substitute, the Parliamentary Secretary. When are they going to bring their general policy into relationship with those admirable economic truths so clearly repeated in every speech of the Lord Privy Seal?
Can the Noble Lord say whether hon. Gentlemen opposite consider that they are good economic truths?
Will the Noble Lord say what they are?
I will indeed. That is a very fair suggestion. I was going on to do so. The right hon. Gentleman has made a perfectly good-humoured interjection. We consider them good economic truths, but, whether he does or whether his hon. Friends do, I do not know. I shall be called to order if I continue further to answer the right hon. Gentleman and his friends. I admire, at any rate, the sincerity and honesty with which the right hon. Gentleman and his friends have put forward their views in this Debate. I do not in the least quarrel with their motives, and I should be very pleased to argue with them on the economic position.
The Noble Lord spoke about economic truths. Is there a Tory truth and a Socialist truth? What is political truth?
I did not say so at all. My answer to the right hon. Gentleman is that I regard the Lord Privy Seal's statements as economic truths. The right hon. Gentleman, I believe, judging from his public utterances, does not so regard them. I do not suggest that there is a Socialist economic truth and a Tory economic truth. There is no doubt an economic truth which may be neither Socialist nor Tory, but for the purposes of my argument I am quite willing to adopt the economic truths which I am going to quote and which the right hon. Gentleman the Lord Privy Seal has stated as economic truths, and nothing more.
I hope that the noble Lord in his calculations will not leave out the Liberal economic truth.
The hon. Member has reminded me of this most important factor. I owe his party an apology for not advancing it. I would suggest that they also would agree with the views of the Lord Privy Seal, and I am sure that they agree with what I am just going to say. What is the first economic truth which we constantly have from the lips of the Lord Privy Seal? He says that we live by our export trade. I ask: Is this proposal in this Sub-section, a proposal yet further to burden the Unemployment Fund and the public funds of this country, going to help the export trade 2 Is that going to make it easier to meet foreign competition and thereby employ more people? The Lord Privy Seal has said—he has said it on two or three occasions, and therefore he must be very pleased with it—that you cannot take more out of industry than there is in it. Exactly; By this proposal, you are adding one more burden.
Does the Noble Lord agree with that statement?
Most certainly. If you cannot get more out of industry than there is in it, it applies both to profits and to wages. Let the right hon. Gentleman remember that. If the employer tries to get more profits out of industry than it can afford, he will break industry; and, if the wage-earner tries to get higher wages than industry can pay, he equally will break industry. It was in that way that he was using it. He was not admonishing those on this side, but admonishing some of his hon. Friends below the Gangway. I say that you are adding one more burden to the already over-weighted overhead charges which the industries of this country have to bear, at any rate, indirectly as taxpayers. Another of the right hon. Gentleman's favourite remarks—the most favoured of all; I think I have read it in every speech he has made—is that the old country is not down and out. We, on this side of the House agree with him most fully, but we do say that a proposal like this to increase the payment out of State funds to young men and women who are producing nothing—it may be through no fault of their own that they are producing nothing—is well calculated to make our commercial rivals think that we have ceased to count as an economic factor.
Nonsense!
The hon. Member may think that it is nonsense, but if he will go anywhere on the Continent of Europe, let alone America, he will find the prevailing opinion amongst people of all classes—it may be unfair, but it is the prevalent opinion—that we pay unlimited sums of money to people in this country for doing nothing. [HON. MEMBERS: "That is true: of your class!"] Is that why hon. Members opposite are going into the Lobby tonight to support this Government in paying even more money to people for doing nothing?
Not the people to whom we refer.
Paying people for doing nothing. [ Interruption. ] The hon. Member opposite is now being merely offensive. He is a respected figure in this House and he has, I believe, a good influence upon those with whom he comes in contact in his own part of the world. Is he going to advise the young men and women of this country that they should ask for more and more from the Government.
There are those who are drawing very heavy sums of money and they are a severe burden on this country; they are the idle rich, who provide nothing in return.
That may be so. I do not deny that there are idle rich, but what has that to do with the proposals in this Sub-section? Is it any better to pay large sums of money to the idle poor than to the idle rich? Both principles are equally bad, and if hon. Members opposite advocate the giving of large sums of money to people for doing nothing, they are advocating something which will sap the vitality of this country.
Come over here.
I shall not come over there so long as the hon. Member sits there. If those on the other side consisted wholly of hon. Members who have the sincerity of view and eloquence of the Members for the Clydeside, I should certainly feel honoured to sit on that side of the House. [ Interruption. ] I mean from the point of view of sincerity, and not if they represented the point of view put by the hon. Member who sits immediately below the Gangway. [ Interruption. ] I am entitled to admire sincerity, which is not as common above the Gangway opposite as it is below the Gangway. The proposal in this Sub-section will be very unpopular. There is hardly any un- employment amongst the young men and young women in many parts of London and in the growing industrial centres of the south, but there is very serious unemployment amongst the older people. Will these older people he grateful to the Government for giving nothing to the ageing man or woman in industry and for giving these substantial sums to the younger people, who are very much better off than they are?
Let the Government be honest in this matter. Let them admit that their real reason is to try to buy off the growing opposition of their own extremists outside the House, people who, unlike the Lord Privy Seal, believe, in their pathetic ignorance, that there is an enormous sum of money somewhere in this country that can be spent by increasing the dole to the unemployed, without affecting trade and industry, without injuriously affecting our export trade, without adding to our public debt, without causing any harm but which, on the other hand, will cause good to everybody. That is not the view held by the Lord Privy Seal or the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and if that view is going to prevail in this country, all I can say is that I do not think the Government will be very long in the position which they occupy to-day.
The Noble Lord has pointed out that what the Government are doing is to give increased benefit to young people, and he asked why we were not-giving increased benefits to the older people. May I remind him that what this Sub-section does is to give something like £470,000 to the young people, and that there is an increase to the married women of 2s. per week which gives them £1,650,000. There is not a single Amendment standing in the name of the Noble Lord or his party to increase the benefits to the older people.
I did not make myself clear. I asked what was the reason that the Government are giving the increases in this Bill to young people, instead of to the old people.
I submit that I have just given figures which show that the great bulk of the increases are going to adult people. May I draw attention to the fact that there is an Amendment on the Order Paper in the names of several hon. Members, including the Noble Lord, for the purpose of reducing the amount that we propose to increase, so that the married women would get only seven shillings instead of the nine shillings which we propose.
Again, I do not seem to have made myself clear. I am opposed to all the increases in this Bill, and am proud of being opposed to them, but if you are going to give increases to the very large amount given in this Sub-section, you ought to give them to the older people rather than to the younger people.
I suppose that if we gave them to the older people there would be objection, and the suggestion would be that the Sub-section should be rejected. The Noble Lord seemed to object to these increases on the ground that it was undermining the morale of the young people. That is a fairly common objection in these days. He objected that we were giving something to these young people out of State funds. We are not giving something to these young people out of State funds. It is out of an Insurance Fund, and perhaps the most substantial part of this Insurance Fund are the young people to whom the Noble Lord objects. As regards morale, I wondered why he used that argument, because—
It was the argument of your own Minister.
I will deal with that point in a moment. The Noble Lord said that it was a common argument which was used very effectively abroad against the best interests of this country, that we were giving large sums of money for nothing. The whole position has been misinterpreted. Does the Noble Lord mean to say, for instance, that because there is a particular case in Toronto where someone is stranded, that that represents the average British emigrant to Canada? There is very definite evidence in the Reports of the Ministry of Labour that 90 out of every 100 emigrants who go to Canada make good and are worthy of the best types of the people of this country.
Hear, hear!
I only raise this matter because there was a danger that the Noble Lord was giving the impression that the type of man who goes out is one who has been undermined by some benefit payment and, therefore, not likely to make good. That is a wrong impression. The Noble Lord mentioned that he had been responsible for looking after two persons from a distressed area. We know that, personally, the Noble Lord is of a type which is not always interpreted in the language that he uses in this House.
Perhaps I did not make myself clear. I said that one of them was a most admirable worker, and that the other had not even seen me, so that he could not have formed any unfavourable impression of me. It was clear, from what his own family told me, that he left because he felt homesick.
I hope I was not giving a wrong impression of what the Noble Lord said. While he is hard and aggressive on matters of principle, personally, he is the most generous type of individual.
And always courteous.
He gave us two cases, one which turned out well and another which turned out badly. One of the strong arguments for increasing these benefits to these youths is that they shall be assured when they leave home of something which will at least keep them decent should they happen to break down. About 35,000 people have left home and been transported elsewhere during the past 18 months; and have been settled. An outstanding feature to-day is that there is a greater demand upon the youth of this generation than there was in the past. We on this side of the House represent what may be called the old type of industrialism. We got very little help; we had to stand on our own legs. In the main, we did not know so much about unemployment as does the youth of today. We took risks, we were hardened; but so far as my own industry was concerned during the whole of my life I was practically always assured of a job. That is more than the youth of to-day can say. It was hard work, sometimes for little money, but there was a sense of security. We could stop at home and find work. It is a tribute to our young people to know that they love their homes so well and are fond of the old community. I have seen them come back and I have regretted that they have done so. The point is that it is not always a matter for condemnation when they come back to their home. Sometimes it is because of the finer qualities of which they are made.
One of the oustanding characteristics of my own community, the mining community, is that it tends to draw its own people back. Modern industry has so changed, as everyone knows, that there will be a greater demand as the years go on—I am sorry for it—for a spirit of adventure, the moving from one part of the country to another and, therefore, I say that this amount is little enough to work on and too little if the fund could afford more, for those who are unemployed and away from home. Take the position of a boy or girl who is at home, the amounts are 6s. for a boy of 16, and 9s. for a youth of 17.
There is nothing in the Bill which says that payments shall be made in the respect of hoys who are away from home.
I am now putting the position of the boy at home. It is 6s. in the case of a boy of 15 or 16 years of age, 9s. in the case of a youth of 17, and 14s. in the case of a youth of 18. Is there anyone who will say that these amounts are too large for boys and girls of that age. All of us have some experience of the cost of maintenance, and there is no hon. Member opposite who could keep a boy or girl of that age on the amounts laid down in the Bill. The Noble Lord says that these amounts are not really maintenance allowances. I should like to know what is really the objection.
If the Parliamentary Secretary acknowledges that these are not maintenance allowances who is to find the balance?
The real answer to the hon. Member's question is that the parents will have to find the difference. The Noble Lord's chief objection was that it would undermine the morale of these youths.
I did not say that.
I should like to know what the Noble Lord really did mean. This is what the National Advisory Council say upon the question:
"Moreover, boys or girls during a period of unemployment are perhaps more likely to lose self-respect and become demoralised if they have nothing in their pockets than if they are able to make a contribution to their own support out of funds to which they have contributed."
Boys and girls at these particular ages are to-day sustained by several things which did not operate in years gone by. Education has some effect; there is the growing power of the home and character of the boys and girls. I have had one experience after another which has proved to me—and I have no doubt hon. Members have had a similar experience—that the youths of to-day, boys and girls, young men and young women, if they get a reasonable opportunity to work would much rather be useful citizens, active, and doing mental work or work of a more manual character than taking small amounts of this kind. Some of us have worked hard for little money but we should scarcely say thank you for the amounts set down in this Bill. A striking feature to me is the number of young men who come and speak as though they are in pain merely because they are idle. They come and discuss ways and means of getting work. I object to the position taken up by the Noble Lord, which I am sure he did not mean, that this money paid out of some kind of State fund to the young people of the country, will demoralise and undermine the type of character of which we are all proud. I think hon. Members on the other side ought to meet the points that this is not maintenance; that it is not a dole, but insurance; that the money does not come out of State funds, but is only a meagre recognition of the contributions which these young people make to the fund and the part which they play in connection with it and the needs of young people at that age.
I find it difficult to follow the arguments of the Noble Lord the Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton). There are two issues in the Sub-section. The first is the simple one which follows on the decision of the Committee to create a new class of insured persons between 15 and 16. The other is whether or not we are to retain the benefits for those up to 21 at the present level or make small increases of from 2s. to 4s. If I had my way I would have gone back to the status which existed before the Conservative Measure of 1927. I opposed then and I oppose now, the creation of a separate class of young persons between the ages of 18 and 21. There has never been made out, either in the evidence before the Blanesburgh Committee or in the report of that Committee, or in the House of Commons, a case for the segregation of young persons between 18 and 21 in a separate class. From the beginning of unemployment insurance we had two classes, namely, juveniles under 18 and adults over 18 and those who know the industrial districts know that there are young men and women between 18 and 20 years of age who are bearing the responsibilities of adult life and some of whom are married men and women. Indeed I was surprised, when I read the first draft of the Bill, that the Government had not settled the difficulty by restoring the original status.
That is not the issue now. The issue now is, the Committee having decided to bring these young persons in, what shall they be paid? I cannot believe that the Noble Lord and his friends, if they examine the Schedule of benefits, can argue that those benefits are too high. Those benefits cannot be described as a dole, because a profit is being made on the fund from the contributions of these young people. Hon. Members above the Gangway on this side have a curious method of argument. Some hon. Members have argued that these young people are going to be demoralised because they are getting a dole. Others have argued that this proposal is robbing the children. One may take either of those arguments, but one cannot take both at the same time. If the fund is making a profit from these young people, then they are paying their way and they are getting insurance money and not a dole. What applies to young people under 18 applies equally, I think, to the class between 18 and 21. When the Actuary's Report was presented on the class between 18 and 21, as originally formed, the Actuary said that on the basis of the contributions adopted in connection with the 1927 Measure, a profit of £900,000 a year would be made out of the class. Let me read the actual words:
Provided they are in work.
The hon. Member in that remark has not shown his usual acute-ness. We are not arguing as to whether they are working or not. These calculations were made on the assumption that there would be 720,000 out of work—that is a normal unemployment of 6 per cent. That was the basis taken for that Report. I would like to know before the Debate finishes what actually was the profit made last year in the working of that Measure. Until I get those figures I am entitled to argue that it is impossible to say that these young people are making a drain on the fund, even with the increased rates of benefit. In my judgment, if they were restored to their adult status, of which they were deprived by the Conservative Measure of 1927, they would still be paying their way. We cannot argue that this is a dole. We cannot argue that it constitutes a heavy drain on the fund because there is a profit on all the persons between 17 and 21, and, in my judgment, as I have said, a case has never been made out for the segregation of this class from the other adults in insurance.
A very large class of young people is affected; the calculation of the Actuary in connection with the Blanesburgh Report was that it would affect 783,000 youths between 18 and 21 and 480,000 young women. When we consider that the bulk of those unemployed in this class are in the necessitous areas, where they have great difficulty in finding work and where the parents find it very hard to make up the maintenance which they ought to have if they are to be kept in full health, it will be seen how serious is this question. If there is one section of the unemployed who need good food it is the section between 17 and 21. That is the age when a shortage of food or deprivation of food has more lasting effects than it would have at almost any other age in life, with the possible exception of the very early years This proposal represents the minimum which the Government could have done in view of the stand taken by hon. Members when they were on this side. I regret, personally, that they did not go back to the old position of having only two classes of insured persons instead of three.
This Clause falls very far short of what I would like to see in the Bill, but when one hears a speech like that of the Noble Lord the Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton) then one is bound to defend these proposals. The Noble Lord's speech was one of the best I have ever heard in support of the philosophy of the Tory and employing class of this country, that the nearer you keep young people to starvation, the harder and the better will they work. One has only to consider that little Toronto episode which the Noble Lord recited to realise that the suggestion made is that, in the absence of anything to provide against the results of unemployment such as the payment of insurance, young people would go 100 and 200 miles in search of work. We have only to listen to speeches of that description to be forced back into supporting the view which the hon. Member for Leith (Mr. E. Brown) has just anticipated me in stating.
I think, with all hon. Members on this side, that there can be no denying that the introduction of this new class between 18 and 21 was a deliberate manœuvre' on the part of the previous Government to degrade the standard of benefit under the Act. It cannot be denied that a young man or a young woman of 18 or 20 is most often eating more food, wearing more clothes, and costing more to live than a man or woman beyond that age. It is quite clear to me and to anyone with anything of an insurance point of view that it was a process of cheapening, of watering down the benefit, of making people worse off under the Act than they were previously. Again, I think great exception must be taken to the attitude of the supporters of this Amendment, who, not content with having been responsible for these inadequate benefits in their 1927 Act, talk about these provisions being a charge on public funds and on industry. We have to remind the Mover of the Amendment and his supporters that these funds are insurance funds, and they themselves have been arguing previously that they were insurance funds of such a nature that they were contributing at younger ages, while a few days ago they were arguing about exploiting these young people and taking from them more insurance contributions than were required for the benefits they would receive.
Again, anyone who has the most elementary knowledge of insurance principles must see that the most profitable contributions to the Fund come from the young people, and that it is ridiculous to attempt to argue that an insurance fund is a public fund and a charge on industry, unless, of course—and I rather think this is the secret of the whole thing —the objection to bringing these younger people in is that the employing class cannot scoop in a group of cheap labour without paying their contribution to the Fund.
I do not know what latitude has been allowed by the Deputy-Chairman, but this is a question of rates of benefit, not of contributions.
9.0 p.m.
I accept your ruling, Sir, but contributions, I submit, are related to benefit, and I am following the argument of the Noble Lord when he talked about the charge that these meagre benefits would be on industry. I think you must at least allow that the contribution has some relation to benefits, and that one has to correct statements put forward by the other side that this was a charge on public funds. I say emphatically that this is an insurance fund and that adequate contributions are made, and many of those associated with me on this side were hopeful that the contributions would have been equal to larger benefits instead of the meagre benefits provided in this Clause. The Bill does not provide for homesick boys, and I could not quite see the point of the Noble Lord in arguing against the Clause that it demoralised young people and made them afraid to go away from home. "One swallow does not make a summer," and I should very much question if the one instance that he quoted is any substantial ground upon which this Committee should legislate in respect of this Clause. If there is anything wrong at all with this Clause, it is that the rates are too low, and I certainly oppose the Amendment and support the Clause as it stands.
The further this Debate goes, the more it illustrates the importance of calling things by their right name. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour emphasized the fact, as he described it, that the moneys provided for under this Clause do not come out of public funds but out of insurance funds, and the hon. Member for Greenwich (Mr. Palmer) still further emphasized that point. I submit that that is an absolute travesty of the facts. These increased benefits are really organised charity masquerading as insurance benefits. When a man in an insured trade is in employment, contributions are paid by and in respect of him to a fund from which benefits are to be paid to those who are out of work. Those contributions are paid by the man, by his employer, and by the State while he is employed. Those contributions have been shown by experience to be inadequate for the benefits that we are paying to-day. The Fund is hopelessly bankrupt. I submit that for anyone to come before this Committee and advocate increased insurance benefit from a fund that is already hopelessly bankrupt is as if a man were to go into a shop, seek to buy a shilling article, place a £l note on the counter, and expect change for 25s. The one proposition is just as sensible as the other.
Increased insurance benefit, properly so-called, using the words in their simplest sense, is impossible out of a fund that cannot carry the existing benefits. These extra moneys that are paid in to make possible increased benefits such as are suggested in this Clause are not insurance moneys; they are really organised State charity. It is, of course, open to the Government to say that it is not their fault that the Insurance Fund is insolvent, and that they found it so. I agree, but we must remember that the Minister of Labour, when introducing the Bill, said that it was a Bill to remedy the outstanding defects of the present system. There can hardly be a greater outstanding defect in any insurance scheme than the fact that it is bankrupt, and the Government, instead of coming to the House and saying, "Let us pay a little more here, and a little more there; never mind about the fund, we will put in a lump sum from the Treasury," should have said, "We have taken actuarial advice in the light of experience, and for such and such contributions, such and such benefits can be paid." If that were done, it is obvious that, if contributions remained at the same rate as at present, and benefits remained at the same rate, an adjustment would have to be made in the period for which benefit was payable. In other words, if the rates were the same contributions would be paid for a lesser period. No doubt many hon. Members would say, "That is worse, for the members of insured trades who are unemployed want more: they do not want less." No doubt that is true, but so do other people want more.
After all, we are asked in this Clause to agree to increased payment—mis-described as benefits—to certain youths, because they happen to be in insured trades. What about the corresponding youths and girls who are not in insured trades? They are just as much entitled to extra payment, because, in fact, it is not insurance benefit at all in that it does not come, and cannot be made to come, out of the contributions paid by insured workers.
Where then does it come from, if it does not come from contributions by the insured person, the employer, and the State?
It comes from the Exchequer grant and the loan which keeps the fund open—[ Interruption. ]
Order, order! This is a maiden speech.
I beg the hon. Member's pardon.
I do not mind interruptions at all. The point is that the con- tributions are found to be inadequate to the benefits, so that the debt continually increases, and it it not a misuse of language to say that the fund is bankrupt. If you have additional benefits, they cannot come out of the contributions, which are more than exhausted, and they must come from a further sum put in by somebody else, in this case the Government. That being so, these extra payments, which cannot possibly be obtained from the original fund, but which can only be rendered possible by additional payments by the Exchequer, are as much due to people in uninsured trades as people in insured trades. I object to being asked to support these payments to particular individuals, merely because they are members of insured trades, individuals who are already getting more on an actuarial basis than they are entitled to out of the Insurance Fund. Something has been said as to the effect on the general state of prosperity of the country of these additional burdens which are laid from time to time upon the Exchequer. It is quite true, if you consider the burden in this case relative to the expenditure of the Exchequer, that it is a comparatively small amount; but when we have repeated additions of such small amounts, we come to a very large burden, and I suggest that the result of steadily increasing the burdens of the taxpaying classes will be gradually to increase the number of poor in the country. Some hon. Gentlemen may say that they see no particular objection to that. The Minister of Health, speaking in this House on the 19th November, said: —
"If we were all poor together, there would be no injustices."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 19th November, 1929; col 452, Vol. 232.]
I do not know how he arrived at that somewhat remarkable conclusion. He did not tell this House, but he left it to be inferred that he was in favour of the abolition of injustices, and that, consequently, he desired to see us all poor. I do not believe that this country would be a better place in which to live for the great mass of the population if they were all reduced to poverty, and I do not believe that expenditure indulged in without considering the cost, even though it may be only small amounts at a time, is calculated in the long run to do anything but make us ultimately a nation of paupers.
It is my very agreeable duty to congratulate the hon. Member for Colchester (Mr. O. Lewis) on the excellent maiden speech which he has just made to the Committee, and I look forward to seeing the evidence of confidence and expertness which he has shown in further contributions to the House. His opening remarks caused me for a moment to shudder. He said that it would be good for the House if we got into the habit of calling things by their right name. I thought that we were going to hear something really dreadful, but I am sorry to say that the hon. Gentleman, like many other young Members of the House, was not so fierce in his remarks as he appeared when he rose to address us. The hon. Member referred to the fact that this was a scheme of State charity. I hope that he will pursue his political and social investigations, for he will find that there are many precedents of a very substantial character in this country for the modicum of charity—if there be any—contained in this Bill. He will find charity dispensed where it would be regarded as a great political sin if we were to cut down certain annual allowances.
He described the fund as bankrupt. I agree that the present Bill could not pay 20s. in the £ if based on a live register of 1,200,000, which I suppose was the figure when the Bill was sent to the draftsmen. No doubt that figure was prepared by the permanent staff who prepared the other figure, which has been referred to on the other side, and on which the Act of 1927 was based. The permanent officials advised the Minister of Labour then that within 12 months the number of unemployed would be reduced to 700,000. The very same officials advised the present Minister of Labour that she must proceed on the assumption of there being 1,200,000. I suppose these officials will be retained for their wonderful capacity during the lifetime of this Government and, probably, during the lifetime of succeeding Governments, although a miner or a joiner or any other ordinary workman who was as far out in his work as they have evidently been in their's would have conferred upon him, not the distinctions which are so well sought for, and often obtained, by members of the Civil Service, but what is known among the working class as "the order of the sack."
I admit that this fund is bankrupt, but what has made it bankrupt? It has been made bankrupt because the State has done justice to the unemployed. Is anyone going to argue that the contributions from industry have not been as heavy as industry could bear? I have listened to speech after speech from the other side attempting to prove that industry is being ruined by the cost of our social services. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I take it that those cries of "Hear, hear!" indicate agreement with me that we ought not to put any more burdens upon the employers. But do hon. Members think that the workers have not contributed a fair amount to the maintenance of their poverty-stricken fellows? I submit that in the main the poor maintain the poor in this country. At any rate they have, when they were in employment, made a substantial contribution towards the maintenance of the poor created by capitalism, and if we are to agree that industry, either as capital or labour, is not to bear any more of the burden, we come to the other source of revenue. The other source of revenue has been provided largely from what are called the idle rich.
There is a section of this community who are justly described as the idle rich. It is not that the maintenance of the unemployed out of whose labour, when they were employed, these people have made the millions which entitle them, if they have an entitlement, to be the idle rich.
I come to the most interesting speech of the Noble Lord the Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton) who moved this Amendment. I always enjoy his speeches. He is a fine specimen of the comfortable, independent gentleman, who can look down from his pedestal on the ordinary folk of this world and tell us how it could be made much better if only we would adopt the principles with which he agrees. He told us that it is good to have a state of semi-starvation among the boys and girls of the working-class. The idea is to produce a hardy race. Send them out ill-shod, ill-clad, and with a very poor breakfast and they will grow up into magnificent specimens of the men who have made the British Empire what it is. I looked at the Noble Lord himself, and I admired his physical condition. He seemed to me to be a man physically, of whom any country ought to be proud, and I thought that if the Noble Lord believed in his own philosophy he must have had considerable starvation during his boyhood. If he can rise in his place—or if any of his friends can rise in their places—and tell us that he is a product of the conditions in which the children of the unemployed are compelled to live to-day, I think he will have made some contribution to the enlightenment of this House on the proper attitude, from the point of view of national physique, to be adopted towards the unemployed. I prefer to believe that the Noble Lord's philosophy was not for home consumption, but one of those things that he and others are prepared to dispense to their poorer neighbours; that he can look down upon an order of society in which he thinks only a few of the people of this country are entitled to dwell, and that he cannot contemplate an order of society in which all the people will be as well fed as the Noble Lord, or as well fed in their youth, and that he thinks there may be one method of maintaining the rich and another method of maintaining the poor.
He gave us a story of British people losing their grit. That is not the sort of speech which I used to hear five, six, or 10 years ago. That was not the sort of speech on which the ex-servicemen were fed at the conclusion of the War. The Noble Lord did not get up then and say "Look at our deteriorated race; that is the positive result of the policy of insurance in this country. If you had been as hard-hearted as the Germans, if you had been as hard-hearted as the Americans, you would have produced men with German grit and men with American grit." No; the Noble Lord said that these Britishers, these despised slum dwellers, these people who now suffer from unemployment were, if not the lords of creation—because I have no doubt he retained that position for himself—certainly the men of creation, of whom any country might be proud. Whatever may have been our political differences with regard to the War, we can unite on all sides in paying tribute to the heroism, the manhood, the courage, and the physique of the men who stood between this country and its enemies during those four and a half terrible years.
The Mover of the Amendment was one.
I am not surprised, indeed, I would be shocked to learn anything else, because if you could find a recruiting sergeant or a tribunal in this country who would have dismissed the Noble Lord on the ground that he was physically unfit for military service I would be amazed. He not only had the physical figure to go to war, but he had something to defend. I have no doubt the Noble Lord had his wide hills and his pastures green and his bank balances. But he was not the only defender, and, if Britain had had to depend for its defence against the Germans—I do not want to minimise the contribution made by any section of the community towards that War, but if Britain had had to depend upon its lords it would have been "Lord help Britain." [HON. MEMBERS: "Nonsense!"] I am sure that the majority of the hon. Member's colleagues will not disagree with my argument. I was saying that, if the lords of this country and nobody else had had to meet the German invasion, it would only have been the Lord who could have saved Britain. Hon. Members will not wish to diminish the contribution made by members of the middle and working-classes in the terribly trying years of 1914.
On a point of Order. What has this to do with leaving out the Sub-section?
I have already explained that I do not know what latitude was given to the Committee by the Deputy-Chairman, but I understand the Noble Lord went far away from the leaving out of the Clause, and, if he made various statements, the right hon. Member is entitled to reply.
The Noble Lord wandered far. He had a season ticket which was world wide. He took us all round the globe and gave us the story of the wonderful little boy of 18 years of age who loved his mother so much that after a year or two's absence from home he wanted to see her and come home. The boy had an admirable character because he cherished his love for the mother who had brought him into the world, and, after 12 months of the blessings of imperialism in Toronto, he wanted to get back to poor old Britain to see his mother.
It was in this country, not Toronto.
He said Toronto. Then this argument about the fund being bankrupt is one which can be carried too far. If the fund is bankrupt because one of the parties has not contributed to it as adequately as he can afford, which is the position here, the only party who can afford to contribute is the third contributor, the State. If the State does not contribute more and the fund is thereby insolvent, we ought to make it solvent by getting a larger contribution from the State. We are held up as extremists, whereas the logic of the arguments in this House this afternoon is that we are the only clear-minded men who have taken part in the discussion. If you carry that argument to its conclusion, you find that the State would be bankrupt, with its £7,000,000,000 of debt, and would be unable to meet its obligations, if it were not for the taxes which the Chancellor of the Exchequer extracts annually from our pockets. The State is not afraid of a bit of extra taxa- tion, but you could argue that the State is bankrupt as you have argued that the fund is bankrupt.
The Noble Lord gave us a contribution, which he said was an extract from a speech by the Lord Privy Seal, which had his whole-hearted agreement. He gave us the proposition that you could not get more out of an industry than was in it. That sounds very wise. After you have said that you pause for applause because it indicates that you are a philosopher to whom the world may look for that little scrap of wisdom with which it is usually governed. How can you justify that? Does the soldier live on what is in his industry? What would be the income of the soldier who lives on what he gets out of his industry? Do hon. Gentlemen opposite live on what they take out of industry or what they put into it? You never say a policeman must live on his pay, because that is all his industry gives, and he cannot take out more than he gets. It is only to the miners you say that. The miner is as useful to the country as any other section, and therefore should be maintained by the country.
To say that our people are going to be demoralised by what is contained in this Bill, is to make a big demand on our credulity. Here are little boys of 16 and 17 years of age who are going to be demoralised by incomes of 6s. and 9s. a week. Do hon. Gentlemen opposite really believe these things? Do they think it is more likely to create nobility of character if you send unemployed boys and men to football games, knocking at the door and asking to be admitted at half-price, because they are signing on at a Labour Exchange? Is that the way you are going to create the nobler race which hon. Members opposite desire? That is not the way the best Tories are created. You produce them by feeding, clothing, and housing them well, and, above all, by giving them sufficient pocket money to enable them to go into the best places and schools of culture in the country and to take their place side by side with the best members of the community.
Is not that what you do with your boys?
That is what I do with my boys, thank God. The only difference between me and the hon. Mem- ber is that what I do for my boys I want the State to do for all boys. The hon. Member is no doubt as good a father as I am, but he is not as good a politician. He would do for his own boy, but would keep other boys down to 6s. a week. It may please some Members, but not nine-tenths of the Members on this side, if they gave free and frank expression to their opinions. Even this 6s. a week is objected to on the ground that it will demoralise. I have the highest regard for the opinion of the hon. Member opposite, but I think he may be a better man than he is a politician. I do not believe that there is one hon. Member on the other side who, if he saw a little boy of 16 suffering from the want of 1s., would refrain from putting his hands in his pockets to help him. I have more respect for them as men than politicians. Yet they go to the country and ask the country to send them here in the name of the working classes to object to a working-class child getting 6s. a week.
Only the amazing vanity of a Socialist could produce the speech to which we have just listened, coming, as it does, from the right hon. Gentleman, whose own conduct towards his own people was such that when an action was brought against him in the Scottish Courts and went against him, he had not even the courage to appeal against the decision.
I am sure the hon. Member does not want to be unfair. No action was raised against me in the Scottish Courts.
It is perfectly obvious that the right hon. Gentleman is now endeavouring to get out of a difficulty by splitting hairs. What actually happened was that he began the action and lost it. Having lost his action and having had his character damaged in a way—
The discussion up to now has been of a very wide character. It is time that we confined ourselves to the Amendment on the Paper.
I shall do so, certainly, but, on the other hand, if the right hon. Gentleman opposite attacks hon. Members on this side, as he has done during the last half-hour, surely we have some right to make a reply to what he has said?
That is what happens; one hon. Member makes a speech and another hon. Member wants to reply, and then No. 3 wants to reply to No. 2, and we do not discuss the matter before us.
I have always accepted your Ruling, unlike right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite. I will, however, leave that subject. I shall support the Amendment. I find it very difficult to understand why hon. Members opposite, who pretend to represent the working classes, who pretend that they have the interests of the working classes really at heart, should take the course that they are taking when an effort is made on this side to check the wicked expenditure which is going on now, expenditure which is bound, in the long run, to inflict a greater wrong upon the workers themselves than what is proposed on this side of the Committee. Hon. Members opposite get hold of the wrong end of the stick and endeavour to cure unemployment by spending vast millions of the people's money instead of trying to find work for people and the money that is required in the great trades of the country. The right hon. Gentleman has talked about the idle rich. No. The only way in which we can do anything to help the people who are entitled to be helped is by conserving the wealth of the country, as is proposed in the Amendment, and not by the extravagant expenditure that is proposed by the Government.
The Government's proposals we are endeavouring to check because we believe that they are contrary to the good government of the country. I listened to the Debate earlier in the day, when it was proposed to add to the expenditure vast sums for boys and girls of 15 and 16. The right hon. Gentleman who spoke last does not always win favour with his own party. To-night he has even introduced the question of the ex-service men. When one realises that the party opposite is permeated with passive resisters, with people who did not take an honourable part during the Great War, it really is not quite becoming of the right hon. Gentleman to stand up and endeavour to persuade the Committee to vote against an Amendment that is intended to help the very ex-service men who during the War did play their part, contrary to what hon. Members opposite did. I hope that we on this side shall be able to persuade some section of the party opposite, let us say the more responsible section, seriously to consider their position, and possibly we may persuade some section of the Liberal party to vote with us. I shall give my vote in accord with the first and elementary principle of good government, namely, to conserve and preserve the wealth of this country and not to spend it recklessly.
I prefer generally to assist the passage of this Bill by preserving an attitude of silence in the Debates, but I am moved to intervene for a few moments because of one or two of the speeches that have been delivered this evening from the other side of the Committee. I confess that I have listened to some of the speeches with utter amazement. I have listened to hon. Members opposite expressing their hostility to the proposals of the Government. I welcome the proposals of the Bill for an improvement of the rates of benefit to be paid to certain classes of unemployed persons. I do not say that the new rates will entirely meet the needs of those people that they are designed to serve. As a matter of fact I have no hesitation in saying that those for whom these new rates of benefit are designed will be unable to do more than maintain the bare minimum of their physical requirements. But I welcome the proposals, because they do at any rate represent a, distinct improvement on the present position. The hon. Member for Wirral (Mr. Grace) spoke of the expenditure under this part of the Bill as being wicked expenditure. Another hon. Member opposite went one better and described the proposed increase in the rate of benefit as a stabilisation of idleness. The same hon. Member also said that this Measure added enormously to the total sum of national expenditure, and stated that it added no less than £12,500,000 to our national burdens.
The Noble Lord the Member for Hors-ham (Earl Winterton) stated that this Bill was an attack on the moral fibre of the people of this country and was undermining the stubborn independence of the English character. I have one advantage over the Noble Lord who expressed that point of view. I happen to know something about the modes of thinking of the working-classes, and the fears that harass and distress working men and working women. For many years I was engaged among the workers, and I know from my own experience that of all the things working men and women fear there are very few that they fear more than being thrown out of employment. I have no hesitation in saying, in reference to some of the fears that have been expressed, that the new proposals of the Government are not going to have any devastating effect on the characters of the workpeople involved. I believe that even when these scales are in operation they will do very little to reduce and certainly nothing to remove the fear that is in the heart of every working man and working woman when they visualise the prospects of being thrown out of the employment in which they happen to be engaged. It is a very unworthy, if it is not indeed a mean, trick for hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite, who themselves enjoy every possible material advantage under the existing system, to come down here and put up a stiff resistance to the proposals of the Government which will at least do something to improve the lot of those who are today suffering from the egregious and most grievous hardships that the present system is inflicting upon them.
The largest expenditure proposed in the Bill is in the case of persons between 18 and 19 years of age, and it applies to males and females. What do those increases amount to? In the case of young men, the proposed increase is 4s. a week, the present rate being raised from 10s. to the new rate of 14s. a week. In the case of young women, the proposed increase is 4s. per week; that is, the present rate of 8s. per week is to be raised to the new rate of 12s. per week. It amazes me to see hon. Members opposite, who themselves are extremely fortunate so far as the material advantages of this life are concerned, standing up in their places to resist the proposals of the Government. In future, under this Bill, the rate of unemployment pay in the case of persons of the male sex of 18 years of age, who generally require quite as much keeping as an adult man is to be raised to 14s. per week and I am surprised that hon. Members opposite should resist that very moderate and reasonable proposal. Hon. Members opposite make long speeches against the proposals to increase the rates to girls of 18 years of age from 8s. to 12s. per week. There is also the class under 18 years of age.
I would like to call the attention of the Committee to one point that was made in the report of the Industrial Transference Board over 12 months ago. That board draw attention to a fact of which, I think, this Committee needs to be reminded at this juncture. They called attention to the demoralising effects of unemployment, which they stated was most rife and most marked among the group of persons who are classed as being under 18 years of age. Whatever may be the effect of this Measure, and whatever criticism it is possible to direct against the proposals which we are now discussing, it can at any rate be claimed for them that they will do something to stop the demoralisation which is taking place at the present time among a large class of young people due to the long prevailing period of unemployment through which so many of them are passing. For my part, I welcome the proposals in this part of the Bill, not because I think that they are entirely adequate, or that they will completely meet the situation in which unemployed young persons find themselves, but because I regard them as being at any rate the first instalment of relief to those who stand in such urgent need of assistance at the hands of the Government.
I want to say a word or two on this Amendment, because it touches a very vital principle in the Bill. We have been told that the Debate has ranged very wide, but we have experienced one disadvantage, and that is that we 'have not had any sort of answer to the points which have been raised by the Mover of this Amendment with the exception of a speech from the Parliamentary Secretary. The people in the country who are interested in this Bill want to know why these young people were singled out to get increased benefit, while other classes, equally deserving, were left without any increase whatsoever. When the Second Heading of the Bill was before the House, the Minister of Labour rode off by using the extraordinary phrase that she had £2,000,000 to play with, and was using it, or some of it, for the purpose for which this Sub-section deals. But we want to hear an answer, before the Debate on this Amendment concludes, as to why exactly these people were singled out for benefit, if this £2,000,000 had to be used, and other classes were left severely alone.
A second question raised by the Mover of the Amendment, which received no answer from the Parliamentary Secretary, was as to what is the object of the increases set out in the Schedule to the Bill. We know that the party opposite, according to their election pledges, stand for work or maintenance. But this is not maintenance. What is the object of the extraordinarily small sums which are put down here? What was behind the mind of the Minister of Labour when she brought forth this proposal? One reason why we object to it is this: It has always been a boast of the people of this country that they hate receiving any kind of dole, and they consider it, and have considered it up to now, and I hope will go on considering it, to be part of their business to get a job—any kind of job—on their own account, and to keep away as far as possible from any type of assistance from anybody. We say that the proposals which are now being brought forward go against that very laudable intention, and do a great deal of harm.
These proposals also go completely against the proposals set forth in the Report of the Blanesburgh Committee. I am a great believer in that Committee, and I hope that all Members of this Committee here have read its Report, which really is an admirable Report. The most extraordinary thing about it is that, in spite of the fact that the Committee consisted of people of all shades of political opinion, and people in, to use a common phrase, all walks of life, it was a unanimous finding, and, therefore, it is worthy of very grave consideration. I should like to read two quotations from that Report. They are very short, but they are vitally affected by the Sub-section which is before the Committee at the present moment. The first is one that has been very often quoted in this House. It is on page 39, and it says: That was debated to a certain extent the last time this Bill was before the Committee. The present Amendment vitally touches it, and I am certain that the vast majority of people in this country agree with that paragraph in the Blanesburgh Report, and are very suspicious of what the result will be if this Bill goes forward as it is printed at the present moment. The second quotation which I should like to read, also on page 39 of the Report, touches on the point raised by my Noble Friend the Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton), who moved the Amendment. It says:
As regards the rates of benefit, I have said that I hope the Committee will stand by the Blanesburgh Report. Of course, it can be said that we ourselves in 1927 did not stand by those scales, but we only altered them in two respects. One was in the case of men of 19, where the Blanesburgh Report recommended 10s., and we gave 12s. The other was in the case of women of 19, where the Blanesburgh Report recommended 8s., and we gave 10s. I well remember the Debate, which was very acrimonious, on the question of these girls. We were told that, if we did not give 10s. instead of 8s., these girls would be inclined to lead an immoral life. We have not heard so much about that now; I do not know if it is thought that the 12s. is going to make all the difference in these particular circumstances. Otherwise, we did stick to the Blanesburgh scale. The right hon. Lady was herself a member of the Blanesburgh Committee, and I wish she would tell us for what reason she has altered nearly every one of the scales to which she put her signature. Those scales were worked out after consultation with innumerable bodies of people, and the scales were unanimous, so I do not think that, anyhow on this side of the House, we can go far wrong if we stick to the unanimous scales which were then laid down after so much discussion. If these scales are going to be raised, there must, as I have said, be some reason for it, but we heard no reason whatever from the Parliamentary Secretary.
One reason might be that the cost of living has gone up since the scales were laid down, but that is not the case. The cost of living at the present moment is practically the same as it was at the time of the issue of the Blanesburgh Report; indeed, it is one point lower. The cost of living was 68 at the time of the issue of the Blanesburgh Report, and it is now 67, according to the last figure that I have. Another point which has been raised by several speakers is that the fund is becoming rapidly bankrupt. It is in debt to the extent of £37,000,000, and it can only go up to £40,000,000 before it can borrow no more. I do say that a time like this, when the fund is in that financial condition, is no time for putting up the scale in any way whatsoever, and for that reason we on this side of the House are objecting to most of the increases which are in the Bill.
I must here touch upon one point made; by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Shettleston (Mr. Wheatley). He seemed to think it extraordinary that the permanent officials of the Ministry of Labour should have given two completely different estimates of what the normal unemployment figure should be, the one in 1927, and the other now. I understand that in 1927 their estimated figure was 700,000, while in 1929 their estimate of normal unemployment was 1,200,000. Personally, I think that that shows a great deal of wisdom on the part of the permanent officials, because they knew that the difference in the unemployment figures would be so terrific as between a Conservative Government, whom they rated at 700,000, and a Socialist Government, whom they rated at 1,200,000.
One more reason why I am supporting this Amendment is that the proposals are unfair to the other contributors. We carefully worked out the different scales of benefit so as to be fair on an actuarial basis to the contributors to the Fund. I have said before in the House, and I say again now, that you are going on completely wrong lines when you try bo make the Unemployment Insurance Bill into a sort of State relief scheme. Why not take the bull by the horns and have another Bill altogether, cutting out the question of making it an Unemployment Insurance Bill, and having a State Relief Bill, or whatever you like to call it? But, while you make people pay contributions, both employers and employed, it is not fair to put up benefits to certain classes of people and to make those who are in work pay for them. We are opposing the addition of any extra sums in the way of increased benefit or anything else. We were certain at the Election, and we are more certain now, that the more money is spent by the State the more unemployment you will get. We said that in May. Ever since that time the unemployment figures have gone up and up. An ounce of proof is worth a ton of talk and I am certain we are on firm ground in challenging all this additional expenditure on the ground that, instead of helping the unemployed, it is hindering them and keeping them out of work longer than they would be under other circumstances.
I think hon. Members opposite have not fully appreciated our attitude in moving the omission of this Sub-section. It is very easy for them deliberately to misunderstand our motive and to put the worst construction possible upon it. I hope they will allow me to try to impress upon them some of the reasons why we do not agree with the Minister in including it. My Noble Friend explained very thoroughly and carefully some of the vital objections that we have to the Bill and, by means of an interjection, I was able to get a very important admission from the Parliamentary Secretary. I can quite understand hon. Members opposite taking up the position of work or maintenance. They say: "Here is a young boy or girl out of work. They have to be kept. You must find them work. The State must keep them." If the Minister had brought in a Bill to say that the State would accept the responsibility and give them maintenance allowances, she would have been taking up a logical position, but she has not done so. She has increased the amount of benefit but, admittedly, it is below the scale of maintenance, and when I interjected and asked, "Who is to pay the difference?" the Parliamentary Secretary said, "The parents." That is our whole point. How far are you to relieve the parents of their responsibilities by handing the money to the children? If, on the other hand, you took the attitude that parents of children living at home must have extra money towards their keep, that would have been a logical position, but you do not do that. You simply say, "We will give these young people from 16 to 19 an increased amount of money themselves."
It is that part to which we object. It is not so much the amount of money involved as it is the loss of moral. We have heard within the last six or 12 months from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, from the Home Secretary, from the Prime Minister, from the First Commissioner of Works, a real dread of the young people of the country by means of these benefits losing their moral, and developing the mental attitude of wanting something for nothing. There could be nothing more derogatory to the nation. To give one small example, during the Election, at one of my public meetings I was asked: "Do you approve of the Government plan to aid emigration by paying the passage of young men out to the Colonies? "I said I did. I supported it heartily. He said, "I do not." I said, "Why?" He said, "Because it is driving people to leave the country." What an answer from a young man, when the Government were willing to help him if he would go to one of the Colonies, where there are ample opportunities for work for development, for improving himself and improving the Empire, to take it that we are trying to drive him from the country and to get rid of him on account of unemployment. That is the attitude that we are afraid of. That is the attitude we want to scotch.
One hon. Member said to-night that things are different from what they were in his boyhood. Although hon. Members started work early and fought for them- selves, they had grit and determination, and knew that if they did not work and put their backs into it they could not get on, and owing to their hard work—and all honour to them—they enable themselves to rise to their present proud position. But what would have been the case if, when they were 15 or 16, they could have got 6s. or 9s. unemployment benefit from the State. It would have taken away all their initiative and desire for work. It is the very fact that they had to strive and fight that gave them the ambition and courage to get to their present position. I am afraid that by this scheme of relief—because it is only State relief—we are so going to upset our young men and women that the next generation will not have the grit, the stamina and the courage and the enterprise of their ancestors. If the time comes when we cannot depend on the courage of our young people, if they lose their desire to do the best they can for themselves and the country, the country is done, and it is purely on that account that we on this side, having in mind the benefit of the children, physical, mental and moral, of the country of which we are all soo proud, and the benefit of the Empire—[ Interruption. ] hon. Members across the Floor of the House jeer at the mention of the Empire. Is that the affection which they have for the British Empire? [ Interruption ].
Whenever we point to advantages for the whole of the British Empire, hon. Members sit there and make silly noises. [ Interruption ]. That is not the way that our Empire was built up; that is not the way that our country was made. If, unfortunately, the people of this country have to leave themselves in the hands of hon. Gentlemen opposite with their peculiar views on economics and their desire to give doles and State relief, then the future of this country will be a sad one. But I have confidence in the common sense of the people of this country. The country is alarmed at the extension of these benefits to women and children. There is a feeling of uneasiness on account of the policy of the party opposite. I have not the slightest fear for the future of the country. If the party opposite go to the country, the people will turn them away, and say, "Go; you squander our money, you undermine the moral of the people, and, when you are in the House of Commons, you behave like silly children."
rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
Question put, "That the Question be now put."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 285; Noes, 167.
Division No. 65.] AYES. [10.18 p.m. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Bromley, J. Duncan, Charles Adamson, W. M. (Staff.. Cannock) Brooke, W. Ede, James Chuter Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Brothers, M. Edge, Sir William Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro') Brown, C. W. E. (Notts, Mansfield) Edmunds, J. E. Alpass, J. H. Brown, Ernest (Leith) Edwards, E. (Morpeth) Ammon, Charles George Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Egan, W. H. Angell, Norman Brown, W. J. (Wolverhampton, West) Elmley, Viscount Arnott, John Buchanan, G. England, Colonel A. Aske, Sir Robert Burgess, F. G. Foot, Isaac, Attlee, Clement Richard Burgin, Dr. E. L. Freeman, Peter Ayles, Walter Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland) Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel (Norfolk, N.) Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.) Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley) Caine, Derwent Hall- George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd (Car'vn) Barnes, Alfred John Cameron, A. G. George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) Batey, Joseph Cape, Thomas Gill, T. H. Beckett, John (Camberwell, Peckham) Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.) Gillett, George M. Bellamy, Albert Charleton, H. C. Glassey, A. E. Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood Chater, Daniel Gosling, Harry Bennett, Captain E. N. (Cardiff, Central) Clarke, J. S. Gossling, A. G. Bennett, William (Battersea, South) Cluse, W. S. Gould, F. Benson, G. Cocks, Frederick Seymour Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Bentham, Dr. Ethel Compton, Joseph Gray, Milner Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale) Cove, William G. Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne) Birkett, W. Norman Daggar, George Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Bilndell, James Dallas, George Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.) Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret Davies. E. C. (Montgomery) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Bowen, J. W. Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Grundy, Thomas W. Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Denman, Hon. R. D. Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Broad, Francis Alfred Dickson, T. Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Brockway, A. Fenner Dudgeon, Major C. R. Hall, Capt. W. P. (Portsmouth, C.) Bromfield, William Dukes, C. Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn) Harbord, A. Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Shakespeare, Geoffrey H. Harris, Percy A. Mander, Geoffrey le M. Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Mansfield, W. Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Hastings, Dr. Somerville March, S. Sherwood, G. H. Haycock, A. W. Marcus, M. Shield, George William Hayday, Arthur Markham, S. F. Shillaker, J. F. Hayes, John Henry Marley, J. Shinwell, E. Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Mathers, George Simmons, C. J. Henderson, Arthur, junr. (Cardiff, S.) Maxton, James Simon, E. D. (Manch'ter, Withington) Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) Melville, Sir James Sinclair, Sir A. (Caithness) Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) Messer, Fred Sinkinson, George Herriotts, J. Middleton, G. Smith, Alfred (Sunderland) Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth) Millar, J. O. Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Milner, J. Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) Hoffman, P. C. Morgan, Dr. H. B. Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Hollins, A. Morley, Ralph Smith, Tom (Pontefract) Hopkin, Daniel Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh) Smith, W. R. (Norwich) Hore-Belisha, Leslie Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South) Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip Horrabin, J. F. Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.) Snowden, Thomas (Accrington) Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) Mort, D. L. Sorensen, R. Hunter, Dr. Joseph Moses, J. J. H. Spero, Dr. G. E. Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R. Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent) Stamford, Thomas W. Isaacs, George Mosley, Sir Oswald (Smethwick) Stephen, Campbell Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Muff, G. Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) John, William (Rhondda, West) Muggeridge, H. T. Strachey, E. J. St. Loe Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne) Murnin, Hugh Strauss, G. R. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Nathan, Major H. L. Sutton, J. E. Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. Naylor, T. E. Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln) Jowitt, Rt. Hon. Sir W. A. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S. W.) Kedward, R. M. (Kent, Ashford) Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston) Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby) Kelly, W. T. Owen, Major G. (Carnarvon) Thorne. W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Kennedy, Thomas Owen, H. F. (Hereford) Thurtie, Ernest Kinley, J. Palin, John Henry Tinker, John Joseph Kirkwood, D. Paling, Wilfrid Tout, W. J. Knight, Holford Palmer, E. T. Townend, A. E. Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton) Perry, S. F. Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Lang, Gordon Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Turner, B. Lantbury, Rt. Hon. George Phillips, Dr. Marion Vaughan, D. J. Lathan, G. Picton-Turbervill, Edith Viant, S. P. Law, Albert (Bolton) Pole, Major D. G. Wallace, H. W. Law, A. (Rosendale) Potts, John S. Wallhead, Richard C. Lawrence, Susan Price, M. P. Watkins, F. C. Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge) Pybus, Percy John Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Lawson, John James Quibell, D. J. K. Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle) Ramsay, T. B. Wilson Wellock. Wilfred Leach, W. Raynes, W. R. Welsh, James (Paisley) Lee, Frank (Derby, N. E.) Richards, R. West, F. R. Lees, J. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. Lewis, T. (Southampton) Riley, Ben (Dewsbury) White, H. G. Lindley, Fred W. Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees) Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood) Lloyd, C. Ellis Ritson, J. Whiteley, William (Blaydon) Longbottom, A. W. Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) Wilkinson, Ellen C. Longden, F. Romeril, H. G. Williams, David (Swansea, East) Lovat-Fraser, J. A. Rosbotham, D. S. T. Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Lowth, Thomas Rothschild, J. de Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) Rowson, Guy Wilson, J. (Oldham) MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham) Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) McElwee, A. Salter, Dr. Alfred Winterton, G. E.(Leicester, Loughb'gh) McEntee, V. L. Samuel, H. W. (Swansea. West) Wise, E. F. Mackinder, W. Sanders, W. S. Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff) McKinlay, A. Sandham, E. Wright, W. (Rutherglen) MacLaren, Andrew Sawyer, G. F. Young, R. S. (Islington. North) Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Scrymgeour, E. MacNeill-Weir, L. Scurr, John TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— McShane, John James Sexton, James Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Charles Edwards. NOES. Albery, Irving James Boyce, H. L. Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Bracken, B. Chamberlain. Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.) Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston) Atholl, Duchess of Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Chapman, Sir S. Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley) Buckingham, Sir H. Christie, J. A. Balfour, George (Hampstead) Bullock, Captain Malcolm Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet) Burton, Colonel H. W. Cohen, Major J. Brunel Balniel, Lord Butler, R. A. Colman, N. C. D. Berry, Sir George Butt, Sir Alfred Conway, Sir W. Martin Bevan, S. J. (Holborn) Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Cranbourne, Viscount Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman Carver, Major W. H. Crichton-Stuart, Lord C. Bird, Ernest Roy Castle Stewart, Earl of Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Cautley, Sir Henry S. Croom-Johnson, R. P. Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, Welt) Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W. Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip
Dalkeith, Earl of Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer Rentoul, Sir Gervais S. Dairymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey Hurd, Percy A. Ross, Major Ronald D. Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford) James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. Davies, Dr. Vernon Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil) Kindersley, Major G. M. Salmon, Major I. Dawson, Sir Philip King, Commodore Rt. Hon. Henry D. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Duckworth, G. A. V. Knox, Sir Alfred Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart Dugdale, Capt. T. L. Lamb, Sir J. O. Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D. Eden, Captain Anthony Lane Fox, Rt. Hon. George R. Savery, S. S. Edmondson, Major A. J. Law, Sir Alfred (Derby, High Peak) Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome Elliot, Major Walter E. Leighton, Major B. E. P. Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down) Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-S. M.) Lewis, Oswald (Colchester) Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) Everard, W. Lindsay Little, Dr. E. Graham Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Falle, Sir Bertram G. Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey Smith-Carington, Neville W. Ferguson, Sir John Long, Major Eric Smithers, Waldron Fermoy, Lord Lymington, Viscount Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Fison, F. G. Clavering Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East) Ford, Sir P. J. Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) Southby, Commander A. R. J. Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Makins, Brigadier-General E. Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Galbraith, J. F. W. Margesson, Captain H. D. Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland) Ganzoni, Sir John Marjoribanks, E. C. Stuart, J. C. (Moray and Nairn) Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley) Meller, R. J. Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F. Glyn, Major R. G. C. Mitchell-Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Thomson, Sir F. Grace, John Mond, Hon. Henry Tinne, J. A. Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. Todd, Capt. A. J. Greene, W. P. Crawford Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Gunston, Captain D. W. Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury) Turton, Robert Hugh Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester) Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford) Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Word, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) Hammersley, S. S. Muirhead, A. J. Warrender, Sir Victor Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Waterhouse, Captain Charles Hartington, Marquess of Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld) Wayland, Sir William A. Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) O'Neill, Sir H. Wells, Sydney R. Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Peake, Capt. Osbert Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount Herbert, S.(York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by) Power, Sir John Cecil Womersley, W. J. Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller Pownall, Sir Assheton Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Ramsbotham, H. Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Rawson, Sir Cooper TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. Reid, David D. (County Down) Sir George Penny and Captain Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Remer, John R. Wallace.
On a point of Order. I understand, Mr. Chairman, that you propose to put the Question in such a way as to safeguard subsequent Amendments?
I propose to put the Question "That the words proposed to be left out to the word 'not' in line 21 stand part of the Clause."
Question put accordingly, "That the words proposed to be left out, to the word 'not,' in line 21, stand part of the Clause."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 271; Noes, 166.
Division No. 66.] AYES. [10.30 p.m. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Cove, William G. Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Broad, Francis Alfred Daggar, George Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Brockway, A. Fenner Dallas, George Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro') Bromfield, William Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Alpass, J. H. Bromley, J. Denman, Hon. R. D. Ammon, Charles George Brooke, W. Devlin, Joseph Angell, Norman Brothers, M. Dickson, T. Arnott, John Brown, C. W. E. (Notts, Mansfield) Dudgeon, Major C. R. Aske, Sir Robert Brown, Ernest (Leith) Dukes, C. Attlee, Clement Richard Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Duncan, Charles Ayles, Walter Brown, W. J. (Wolverhampton, West) Ede, James Chuter Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Buchanan, G. Edge, Sir William Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley) Burgess, F. G. Edmunds, J. E. Barnes, Alfred John Burgin, Dr. E. L. Edwards, E. (Morpeth) Batey, Joseph Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland) Egan, W. H. Beckett, John (Camberwell, Peckham) Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel (Norfolk, N.) Elmley, Viscount Bellamy, Albert Caine, Derwent Hall- Foot, Isaac, Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood Cameron, A. G. Freeman, Peter Bennett, Captain E. N. (Cardiff, Central) Cape, Thomas Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) Bennett, William (Battersea, South) Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.) Gardner, J. p. (Hammersmith, N.) Benson, G. Charleton, H. C. Gill. T. H. Bentham, Dr. Ethel Chater, Daniel Gillett, George M. Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale) Clarke, J. S. Glassey, A. E. Birkett, W. Norman Cluse, W. S. Gosling, Harry Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret Cocks, Frederick Seymour Gossling, A. G. Bowen, J. W. Compton, Joseph Gould, F. Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) McEntee, V. L. Sexton, James Gray, Milner Mackinder, W. Shakespeare, Geoffrey H. Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Coine). McKinlay, A. Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) MacLaren, Andrew Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.) Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Sherwood, G. H. Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) MacNeill-Weir, L. Shield, George William Grundy, Thomas W. McShane, John James Shillaker, J. F. Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Shinwell, E. Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Mander, Geoffrey le M. Simmons, C. J. Hall, Capt. W. p. (Portsmouth, C.) Mansfield, W. Simon, E. D. (Manch'ter, Withington) Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn) March, S. Sinkinson, George Harris, Percy A. Marcus, M. Smith, Alfred (Sunderland) Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Markham. S. F. Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) Hastings, Dr. Somerville Marley, J. Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) Haycock, A. W. Mathers, George Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Hayday, Arthur Maxton, James Smith, Tom (Pontefract) Hayes, John Henry Melville, Sir James Smith, W. R. (Norwich) Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Messer, Fred Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip Henderson, Arthur, junr. (Cardiff, S.) Middleton, G. Snowden, Thomas (Accrington) Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) Milner, J. Sorensen, R. Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) Morgan, Dr. H. B. Spero, Dr. G. E. Herriotts, J. Morley, Ralph Stamford, Thomas W. Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth) Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South) Stephen, Campbell Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.) Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Hoffman, P. C. Mort, D. L. Strachey, E. J. St. Loe Hollins, A. Moses, J. J. H. Strauss, G. R. Hopkin, Daniel Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent) Sutton, J. E. Hore-Belisha, Leslie Mosley, Sir Oswald (Smethwick) Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln) Horrabin, J. F. Muff, G. Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S. W.) Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) Muggeridge, H. T. Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby) Hunter, Dr. Joseph Murnin, Hugh Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R. Nathan, Major H. L. Thurtle, Ernest Isaacs, George Naylor, T. E. Tinker, John Joseph Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Tout, W. J. John, William (Rhondda, West) Noel Baker, P. J. Townend, A. E. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston) Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. Owen, Major G. (Carnarvon) Turner, B. Jowitt, Rt. Hon. Sir W. A. Palin, John Henry Vaughan, D. J. Kelly, W. T. Paling, Wilfrid Viant, S. P. Kennedy, Thomas Palmer, E. T. Wallace, H. W. Kinley, J. Perry, S. F. Wallhead, Richard C. Kirkwood, D. Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Watkins, F. C. Knight, Holford Phillips, Dr. Marlon Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Lang, Gordon Picton-Turbervill, Edith Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George Pole, Major D. G. Wellock, Wilfred Lathan, G. Potts, John S. Welsh, James (Paisley) Law, Albert (Bolton) Price, M. P. West, F. R. Law, A. (Rosendale) Quibell, D. J. K. Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. Lawrence, Susan Ramsay, T. B. Wilson White, H. G. Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge) Raynes, W. R. Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood) Lawson, John James Richards, R. Whiteley, William (Blaydon) Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Wilkinson, Ellen C. Leach, W. Riley, Ben (Dewsbury) Williams, David (Swansea, East) Lee, Frank (Derby, N. E.) Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees) Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Lees, J. Ritson, J. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Lewis, T. (Southampton) Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) Wilson, J. (Oldham) Lindley, Fred W. Romeril, H. G. Wilson R. J. (Jarrow) Little, Dr. E. Graham Rosbotham D. S. T. Winterton, G. E.(Leicester, Loughb'gh) Lloyd, C. Ellis Rowson, Guy Wise, E. F. Longbottom, A. W. Salter, Dr. Alfred Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff) Longden, F. Samuel, H. W. (Swansea, West) Wright, W. (Rutherglen) Lovat-Fraser, J. A. Sanders, W. S. Young, R. S. (Islington, North) Lowth, Thomas Sandham, E. Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) Sawyer, G. F. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham) Scrymgeour, E. Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. McElwee, A. Scurr, John Charles Edwards. NOES. Albery, Irving James Boyce, H. L. Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Bracken, B. Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.) Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston) Atholl, Duchess of Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Chapman. Sir S. Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley) Buckingham. Sir H. Christie, J. A. Balfour, George (Hampstead) Bullock, Captain Malcolm Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George Balfour, Captain H. H. (l. of Thanet) Burton, Colonel H. W. Cohen, Major J. Brunel Balniel, Lord Butler, R. A. Colman, N. C. D. Berry, Sir George Butt, Sir Alfred Conway, Sir W. Martin Bevan, S. J. (Holborn) Cadogan. Major Hon. Edward Cranbourne, Viscount Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman Carver, Major W. H. Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Bird, Ernest Roy Castle Stewart, Earl of Croom-Johnson, R. P. Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Cautley. Sir Henry S. Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West) Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W. Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Dalkeith, Earl of
Dairymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer Remer, John R. Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford) Hurd, Percy A. Rentoul, Sir Gervais S. Davies, Dr. Vernon James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Ross, Major Ronald D. Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. Dawson, Sir Philip Kindersley, Major G. M. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Duckworth, G. A. V. King, Commodore Rt. Hon. Henry D. Salmon, Major I. Dugdale, Capt. T. L. Knox, Sir Alfred Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Eden, Captain Anthony Lamb, Sir J. Q. Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart Edmondson, Major A. J. Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D. Elliot, Major Walter E. Law, Sir Alfred (Derby, High Peak) Savery, S. S. England, Colonel A. Leighton, Major B. E. P. Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) Lewis, Oswald (Colchester) Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down) Everard, W. Lindsay Little, Dr. E Graham Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) Falle, Sir Bertram G. Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Ferguson, Sir John Long, Major Eric Smith-Carington, Neville W. Fermoy, Lord Lymington, Viscount Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Fison, F. G. Clavering Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East) Ford, Sir P. J. Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) Southby, Commander A. R. J. Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Makins, Brigadier-General E. Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Galbraith, J. F. W. Margesson, Captain H. D. Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland) Ganzoni, Sir John Marjoribanks, E. C. Stuart, J. C. (Moray and Nairn) Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley) Meller, R. J. Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F. Glyn, Major R. G. C. Mitchell-Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Thomson, Sir F. Grace. John Mond, Hon. Henry Tinne, J. A. Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. Todd, Capt. A. J. Greene, W. P. Crawford Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Gunston, Captain D. W. Morrison Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury) Turton, Robert Hugh Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester) Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford) Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) Hammersley, S. S. Muirhead, A. J. Waterhouse, Captain Charles Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Wayland, Sir William A. Hartington, Marquess of Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G.(Ptrsf'ld) Wells, Sydney R. Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) O'Neill, Sir H. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Peake, Capt. Osbert Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. Penny, Sir George Womersley, W. J. Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by) Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller Power, Sir John Cecil Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Pownall, Sir Assheton TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Ramsbotham, H. Captain Wallace and Sir Victor Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. Rawson, Sir Cooper Warrender. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Reid, David D. (County Down)
I beg to move, in page 1, line 21, to leave out the words "not attained the age of twenty-one," and to insert instead thereof the words, "attained the age of eighteen."
I understand that I have to take this Amendment together with the next one in my name—in line 25, to leave out the words "that age," and to insert instead thereof the words, "the age of twenty-one years." The effect of the first Amendment is to abolish the period of 18 to 21 years which was set up by the Tory Act of 1927.
The second Amendment is consequential. The point under discussion now is that 18 takes the place of 21.
And the other Amendment to increase the rate of benefit to the scales asked for by the Blanesburgh Committee—
The only Amendment now before the Committee is the first one.
On a point of Order. The fourth Amendment on the Paper— in page 2, line 3, at the end, to insert the words,
"but from the commencement of this Act shall be at the weekly rates set out in the Fourth Schedule to this Act,"
—is really consequential, because you cannot apply these rates of benefit to the 18 to 21 class without applying it to the 21 and over class. I submit, therefore, that all these Amendments should be taken together.
The Amendment before the Committee, however, is to insert the age of 18 instead of 21.
I take it that since the other Amendment is consequential, the discussion will be allowed to include that?
The class of 18 to 21 years of age was introduced by the Tories in 1927, and it was fiercely contested both by myself and my colleagues when we were in opposition. Prominent Members of the present Government fought this idea of having a different rate for those of 18 to 21 from that of those of 21 and upwards. Surely, it is not too much now for us on these benches to expect more from a Labour Government than we asked from a Tory Government. Why should I need to stand here and plead that the 18 to 21 class should be treated just the same as men who are over 21? Nobody knows better than we who are fathers of working-class boys that young men from 18 to 21 require even more than their fathers. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why?"] Because he is a young man. He has not been crushed out like his father, and, like your young men, he has a desire to dress well. He has a greater idea of being dressed well than his father had. He wishes to appear at his best, mentally and physically, and therefore he requires more. Surely, you are not going to argue that, because he is a single man, he does not require as much as his father? You have made provision for the mother, for the wife of the unemployed man, and for his child, meagre as it may be, and I hope the Government will accept our Amendment and allow all men from 18 upwards to be paid alike.
If there was a war on who would defend this country? Who would be the first to be called on? Who would be the first to go? [HON. MEMBERS: "The Tories!"] It would be the young men—the boy of 18, the manly boy, the burly boy; and yet here we are pleading for those self same boys, pleading for the boys of my class, the boys of the working class. It is not necessary to plead for your class, because they have all that life can give. I go down to Oxford; I have just agreed to go down to Cambridge and debate; I have been asked many, many times, but I have only now agreed. I go down there, and what do I see? Do I see individuals who are ruined and demoralised because they have never worked, demoralised because they can spend thousands of pounds in the year, demoralised because they have never had an employer and never knew what it was to obey the call of the hooter? There they are, the finest specimens of manhood I have ever looked on. But what a chance they have had! Think of my class. Think of the struggle men like me have had in contrast with those who have been pampered and have had the best that life could give, both mentally and physically. And then you grudge us this! You do, because if it were not for you, my colleagues who are now on the Front Bench would gladly give us what we ask here. It was the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, it was the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) the two of them, who said in our hearing what they would do, "If you dare do this, if you dare do that."
If the Government were like me, they would accept the challenge from you. You would get the chance to defeat us on these matters. I am satisfied that the working class would stand behind this Government if it had courage, if it had as much courage as it has ability. There would be no fear of anything happening. Supposing it did come to a General Election! I hope that the Minister of Labour will accept our Amendment. How can we expect the youth of our land to treat us as we would wish after the way in which we have treated them? They expect us to treat them as men. The country believes that they are men. If ever there was an age in our history which demanded its pound of flesh from the youth, it is the present age. Therefore, I hope the Minister will not turn down this Amendment. We have not moved it with any idea to harass the Government. We have our eyes on something bigger even than a Cabinet Minister. We are looking at our people in the country and the fathers and mothers of these young men who have not the right to vote. They have the right to fight and defend their country but not the right to vote. We are standing here voicing the opinions and feelings of those who have not the right to voice their feelings. I hope that the Minister will not lose sight of that when she comes to consider our point of view.
Coming to the other half of our Amendment, the scales which we are putting forward here are a £l a week for the men and 10s. a week for the women. The Amendment does not touch the child, but only the scales of benefit for the man and his wife. We are only asking here what we demanded when we were in opposition. When we placed our scale before the Blanesburgh Committee, that was the very minimum for which labour asked. We are getting here less than the minimum which labour then suggested, namely, £l a week for the man and 10s. for his wife. The Bill gives a slight increase of 2s. a week for the wife, but there is no increase for the unemployed man.
Just think of it! Here, again, we have to appeal to the Minister of Labour for something more for the unemployed man and his wife! The Labour Government is prepared to give them only 26s. a week. In Glasgow where we have a Tory parish council—[HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?"] Hon. Members ask why not? But Glasgow Tories are unlike the Tories here. The Tory parish council in Glasgow gives a woman and her three children 31s. 6d. a week; and here is a Labour Government, after all the self-sacrifice that the working classes have made to make this Labour Government possible—here we are standing before that Labour Government appealing for £l a week. When the Prime Minister went to America to negotiate peace upon earth with Hoover, the first thing that he did, as far as my constituency is concerned, was to stop the building of a cruiser in Dalmuir and to throw out of employment 300 men. Where did those men go to? To the Employment Exchange. That is the type of man I am appealing for, and there is no finer workman in the world, no finer type of man either in this House or anywhere else. He was thrown out into the street without any provision whatever being made for him. Had he been a civil servant, a school teacher or anything of that kind, there would have been provision made for him, but because he was simply an engineer, simply a ship builder, or only a labourer so-called, skilled, semi-skilled or unskilled, no provision is made for him.
11.0 p.m.
The first duty of the Labour Government was to consider the working class. It is that type that I am appealing for now. Think what I am appealing for! One pound a week. I have gone before employers of labour time and time again, but little did I ever think that I would have to stand up and appeal for £l a week for my class. I have appealed to Lord Invernairn for the engineers time and time again; aye, and I have got them £6 a week. Little did I think that the day would come when I would have to stand before my own colleagues in power and ask them to give my class, the backbone of this country, £l a week. Surely we are not going to see to-night the spectacle of the Government saying to the working classes of this country, "No, we are not going to give them £l a week; the country cannot afford it"—the country which at the moment is paying only 8d. in the pound of taxation for all that is being done for the unemployed. All that has been done only amounts to 8d. in the £ whereas the same country is paying 14s. 9d. in the £ in taxation in order to pay for what has taken place in the wars of the past, and in preparing for the wars of the future through the Army and Navy. A country that can pay £1,000,000 a day as interest on War debts has no right to treat the workers who are unemployed through no fault of their own as criminals. These people are the victims of our system, and I want the Labour Government to have the courage— [ Interruption. ] When they stop building cruisers—
It is not always wise for an hon. Member to pay attention to interruptions.
May I point out to you, Mr. Chairman, that the hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood) has been subjected to a persistent fire of interruptions, some of them vulgar interruptions, from hon. Gentlemen opposite? I ask whether it is not possible for you to defend hon. Members against vulgar interruptions?
I have already expressed the opinion that these interruptions should not take place on either side, and I further stated that there is no need for hon. Members to take notice of them.
While it may be the duty of hon. Members to take no notice of interruptions by hon. Gentlemen opposite there comes a point when it is the duty of the Chairman to take notice of them.
On a point of Order, Mr. Chairman— [ Interruption. ] I am not going to be put off by the interruptions even of dumb driven sheep. May I point out to you Mr. Chairman, that it has been the guiding principle with past occupants of your office to request hon. Members who have made similar interruptions to those which have been made by hon. Members opposite to leave the House.
I have asked hon. Members on several occasions, on both sides of the Committee, not to make these interruptions. When the interruptions are of such a character that they defy my requests, I shall be entitled to ask the Members making them to leave the Committee. That has not occurred at the moment. All that I want to say to hon. Members on both sides of the Committee is that it would be much better for the fairness of our Debates that these interruptions should not take place.
I have no desire to pursue the matter. I have no objection to the building of cruisers being stopped, but, apart from all that I have been saying, this country, which can afford to have bankers, and Hatry, and so on, which can afford to have policemen paid better wages than engineers, which can afford to pay teachers, if you like, better wages than engineers, can afford, surely —and the Chancellor of the Exchequer of ours, who is in charge of all the money in this country, should have it as his chief duty—to protect the poor from the rich. If he carries out that duty, there will be no fear that the Minister of Labour will not gladly accept my Amendment.
I rise to support this Amendment, with considerable hope that, even at the last moment, we shall be able to persuade the Government to accept the course that has been almost unanimously urged by every Labour representative who has dealt with this subject, and every organisation entitled to speak for the organised workers of this country. To read some of the comment that has been made in the Press on this Amendment for which I and some of my friends are responsible, one would think that we were proposing some wild, harebrained Socialist scheme against which it was the duty of the majority of Members of the House of Commons carefully to guard. I want to submit, in answer to that, both to my hon. and right hon. Friends on this side of the Committee and to many hon. Members who sit opposite us, that what we are asking for this evening is not one halfpenny more than, and, indeed, is not nearly as much as, hon. Members both here and on the other side have been known to express a desire for, both in print and in the spoken word from the platform.
There is no logical argument whatever that can be advanced from either the Labour or the Liberal party in the House against the principle of the Amendment in support of which I am speaking. Everybody, man or woman, almost without exception, who has voiced the feeling of the Labour movement in this country has declared adherence to this scheme. I want to say once again, although it has been said before in the course of this Debate, that we on these benches are not insisting that the Government shall bankrupt itself in order to keep any wild and irresponsible pledges that we have been led to make in our constituencies. In the first place, I was not the first to make this pledge during the Election campaign; I made it after I had read a speech by my Leader, which he delivered at Swansea just as the Election campaign started, when he said: Interruption. ] One's first loyalty is to oneself. We are carrying out the instructions of the Labour organisations. The two primary representatives of the Labour movement are not the Members of the Cabinet. No one elected them at all. The elected representatives of the working class are the General Council of the Trade Union Congress and the National Executive of the Labour party. The Members of the Cabinet are responsible to Parliament but they were not elected—and hon. Members would be the first to complain if they were—by the movement in the country. The General Council of the Trade Union Congress—
I do not think that we can discuss the governing body of the Labour movement on this Amendment.
The Joint Committee of these two bodies passed a resolution urging on the Parliamentary Labour Party to move a reasoned Amendment to the Second Reading of the Bill brought in by the party opposite expressing dissatisfaction with its provisions, which fell short of the proposals submitted to the Blanesburgh Committee by the Trade Union Congress and the Labour Party Executive. I have just been told that we are politicians here and, therefore, we ought not to deal with things in this light. If that is a good enough Amendment to demand from the Government of right hon. Gentleman opposite, it is a good enough Amendment to move to this Bill. I shall face, and my hon. friends can face the movement outside, whose leaders gave us those instructions, with no fear that we can be accused of anything but refusing to take part in a mock political warfare which asks one thing from a Conservative Government and another from a Labour Government. We on this side have never subscribed to that doctrine. The movement that sent us to power in this Parliament has never subscribed to that doctrine.
These rates are the rates to which we are pledged in all honour. The Labour party fought the Election on a programme called "Labour and the Nation" which had universal support within its ranks. That programme was fixed by a national Conference. My hon. Friend the Member for Camlachie (Mr. Stephen) went to that Conference and he said in "Labour and the Nation": "Will you please put down the rates that the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health asked from the Blanesburgh Committee?" He was replied to from the platform by the Prime Minister, who said: "There is no need to put these rates into the programme. We have all got them in our minds. Supposing we were trying to diddle you, as some may imagine we are, how on earth could we diddle you on a matter so definitely on record as that. So, if it is going to satisfy you, we will have no objection at all in putting in a reference to the Blanesburgh Report which will allow the Member for Camlachie to get another Dutch bargain with his Tory opponents." The hon. Member for Camlachie said: "I am prepared to accept the very generous reply of my Leader in the House of Commons." Those are the reasons that we pledged ourselves, and those pledges are the reasons—not because we like doing it—that we have felt obliged to put this Amendment on the Order paper. I would say to hon. Gentlemen and right hon. Gentlemen on this side of the House, "What is the harm if this Amendment is carried?" We get the worst of both worlds when we are reminded on these lines: "First of all, we cannot do all that we want to do for the unemployed, because the Tories and Liberals are in a majority and will not let us; and, secondly, if you put down an Amendment to oppose it, the Tories and Liberals might vote with you and then we should be defeated. We cannot have it both ways."
Another argument was that the Chancellor of the Exchequer cannot find the money. The last Chancellor of the Exchequer left the cupboard very bare. I have no doubt that he did, but when we were given that argument we thought the unemployed were going to get some relief this winter. We find, however, that in any case even the £2,000,000 or so they are going to get is hardly going to start within this financial year at all. There has not been a single reason brought forward except that we must go on steadily and pay by instalments. If I owe money and I cannot pay, I have to pay it by instalments. But if I owed money to a rich railway company and to a starving engineer, the railway company would have to wait for its instalments, and, if I had to pawn all I have, the starving engineer would not wait for his instalments. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), in his speech, which seemed to consist, half of it in twitting us for not going far enough, and the other half in warning us that he would not support us if we did go further, said that this meant the payment of an instalment of sixpence in the pound. This is a no more generous Bill than we were able to pass in 1924 with a Parliamentary party nearly 100 fewer than it is to-day. We are being told in the papers that it will be an act of disloyalty if we force a Division and show that the House is really as callous as our Front Bench suggests. I have heard a great deal in this Parliament that the Chancellor of the Exchequer must make his Budget plans, and that we cannot do anything because we have not the power. I remember the hon. and gallant Member for Kelvingrove (Major Elliot)—I am always glad to register gratitude when I realise good actions done by people with whom I do not usually agree—having the courage to go to Scotland and say: "These children must have milk, and they are going to have it," and coming to this House and saying: "I have done it. I know that it was wrong, but it was my job. Give me an indemnity." I think that we could have got an indemnity on our side for acts of courage of that sort.
About this accusation of disloyalty, who are the right hon. and hon. Ladies and Gentlemen on the Front Bench to accuse us of that? I was told by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health that if I pressed this to a Division she would vote for my expulsion with both hands. In 1924 she voted against her Government on almost an exactly similar Amendment. The hon. Member for West Stirling (Mr. Johnston) led the die-hards of those days into the Division Lobby against the Government. Why are the die-hards of these days to be ostracised, while he basks in the sun of present amenities and good behaviour? The hon. Baronet the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, was a Socialist in those days. I do not think he had then joined the Labour party. He went against the Labour Government. One of my hon. Friends, the hon. Member for West Fulham (Dr. Spero) came from the ranks of hon. Gentlemen opposite. When he was on their side he could vote in favour of the unemployed. Why cannot he do so to-day? Because he is sitting on these benches. My Whip, whose duty it is to see that I do exactly what I am told, went into the Lobby against the Government on the unemployment question in 1924. The Minister of Transport, one of the most respected and most orthodox and most able of our leaders, led his troops into the Lobby to get justice for the unemployed. Nine Members of the present Government and 43 backbenchers in 1924, out of 190, went into the Lobby to get decent treatment for the unemployed against the Labour Government. That number does not in clude two tellers, which makes the total 45. How we have progressed in five years, if out of 288 we cannot double that number! We cannot have it both ways. It cannot be orthodox and loyal for hon. Members to climb on to the Government Bench on votes cast against their Government, and then for them to turn round on us who are doing the same thing and carrying on the same fight. [HON. MEMBERS: "And for the same purpose!"] My hon. Friends say, "and for the same purpose." I do not pretend that I put my name down to an Amendment without understanding its import. I hope that I should not be such an "m.d." case that I could not understand it. I give credit to right hon. and hon. Members who will go into the Division Lobby against this Amendment for genuinely believing that they are doing the best according to their lights, as I believe I shall be doing the best according to my lights in voting for the Amendment; but they must not tell me that, after reading the Amendment, they were deceived because they did not understand what it means.
I hope the Committee will consider itself as a Council of State. Why should it be a Council of State when hon. Members opposite put forward suggestions and an insurrection when we put forward a suggestion? Let us have a free vote. The Government should not mind. The Minister of Labour has told us, and I believe her; the Prime Minister has told us in the most eloquent language, and I believe him; the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) has told us in even more eloquent language, but less understandable, and I believe him. In that case how glad they all will be that all parties rallied to the cause which they believe in? If it adds another £12,000,000 to the national ex- penditure, there are still hen-roosts to rob, still people who are not down to the bedrock of a standard of life. I do not want anyone to have to live at a lower level than the very best, but when we have people condemned to the lowest level of. starvation we should all of us be prepared to come down a little in order to help them. I appeal to the right hon. Lady. I know she is not going to accept the Amendment, even if she wanted to, because she has great forces to face. But let us be free, and drop all this talk about one being loyal and the other disloyal; about one being sincere and the other insincere. Some hon. Members and right hon. Members on the Front Bench have fought the working class battle longer than I have; and done as much, some of them more. I disagree with them on this matter. I think they are wrong morally; I think they are wrong economically. It is morally wrong to make speeches like that which the Prime Minister made and bring in a Bill like this. I think they are wrong politically. They are spoiling their own political chances in the country—to put it at the lowest. The only way the Socialist party has got where it is today is by being different to the other two. The object apparently now is to show how like we are to the other two parties, All this talk about disloyalty is going to do no good. I appeal to the right hon. Lady to meet this Amendment in the spirit in which it is moved. I know that the Government will prove the stronger in the Division Lobby, but there should be no ill-feeling. We have done what we think is right. Hon. Members who vote against the Amendment will have done what they think is right. There is no need for talk about insurrections. We can face the people who sent us here and explain the reasons for our action. If we can explain our action to them and to our own consciences, I have no cause to be bitter with those who vote against me, and they have no cause to be bitter because on this issue some of us cannot see eye to eye with them.
I do not know from where the hon. Member for Peckham (Mr. Beckett) got his idea, that whenever an Amendment was moved from these benches, it was treated as if we were sitting in a Council of State, because a perfectly reasonable and accept- able Amendment was put forward by us the other night, an Amendment in accordance with the pledges of the Government, and it was heavily repulsed. I think there is no more reason to think that we are treated as being part of a Council of State, any more than hon. Members who have spoken on the other side. I rise to make one point in reference to what the Secretary of State for War said in winding up the Debate on the Second Reading. I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on the remarkable agility which he has shown in adopting military strategy. During that Debate it is true that, under a very rapid fire from hon. Members on the heights over there, some of the right hon. Gentleman's shots did not hit the target. It is notorious, indeed, that one of them went very wide indeed but he did show, when heavily pressed from behind, remarkable agility in taking cover behind the Liberal party. I do not blame him for that. From a military point of view he was wise because we are very good cover. These seats I venture to say are better and more fully occupied than any other seats in the Committee.
Accordingly the right hon. Gentleman endeavoured to cover up his tracks behind the Liberal party. But it is not fair for the Government to say that they are not fulfilling their pledges and are not doing what hon. Members over there want them to do, because the Liberal party will not let them. They know perfectly well that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has made it clear, both in public and in private, that the reason is because there is not the money for the purpose. That may be true or it may not be true but as to the position of the Government and the Chancellor of the Exchequer—that there is not money for the purpose having regard to all their other commitments—I personally think, and I feel sure all on these benches are inclined to agree, that that is so, but we are not responsible. We are perfectly free and I think the Government ought to have the courage of their convictions. They ought not to try to treat us here as a convenience but when they think their policy is right they ought to go forward and if they think it wrong they ought to withdraw. The responsibility for the policy of the Government rests with hon. and right hon. Members on the Treasury Bench and not with us.
I will not detain the Committee long because it is clear that the Mover and the Seconder of the Amendment have already anticipated my reply. As I have already indicated in previous speeches it is quite impossible for me to accept the Amendment. The Amendment on the Order Paper refers to line 21 and deals particularly with the intermediate group, but the discussion appears to have ranged over the whole of the substituted scale. I have already informed the Committee that this is a question of increasing the deficit by £12,000,000 and it is obviously quite out of the question for me to consider an Amendment of that kind. The Bill is based on definite lines as to the additional money, already described to the Committee. May I ask the Committee to allow me to get on with the Bill, and I would especially ask hon. Members on my own side to try to help in getting a little more of the Bill to-night.
The only remark I want to make is in reply to the Mover of the Amendment, who put forward the astonishing argument that a youth of 18 requires more money than his father, and who also stated that youths require to be dressed better and that they require more food and better amusement. I differ entirely from that argument. We, on this side, do not say that 30s. or £l a week is too much; we support the right hon. Lady in saying that we cannot afford it. We all, in going through the streets, see people who excite our pity, and we have appeals made to us as Members of this House for contributions. What do we do? We give what we can afford, and not more, and probably the hon. Member opposite gives in the same way as the great majority of other people do. We, on this side, consider that the Government in connec-
tion with their financial policy, are riding this country to ruin. It is said that the expenses already incurred will be such that not only will they not decrease unemployment, but that they will increase unemployment by withdrawing capital from industry, and it is certain that the more you increase that expenditure, the greater you increase the evil you are now trying to avoid. It is not that we do not feel sympathy with the man who is out of work, it is not that we think £1 a week is too much for him or 15s. is too much for his wife, but it is a simple fact that the country cannot afford any more money, in fact, not as much money as this Bill intends giving to the unemployed to-day.
I disagree with the amount given to a lad of 18. You are going to give to the lad of 16 the same amount of money as you are giving to the lad of 18. After all, the lad of 18 is only a lad. He may do as much as a man of 21, but if you take the lad from the country, the lad before the War, his total earnings were something in the neighbourhood of 14s. a week, and to-day we propose to give him a larger sum than that for his out of work pay. How can you expect that lad, with the feelings and ideas of a lad, to seek work with the same energy when he is getting practically as much as he used to get for a full week's work before the War? It is for these reasons that I wish to oppose this Amendment.
rose —
rose in her place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
Question put, "That the Question be now put."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 233; Noes, 161.
Division No. 67.] AYES. [11.39 p.m. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Bentham, Dr. Ethel Burgess, F. G Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale) Burgin, Dr. E. L. Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Birkett, W. Norman Caine, Derwert Hall Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro') Blindell, James Cape, Thomas Alpass, J. H. Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.) Ammon, Charles George Bowen, J. W. Charleton, H. C. Arnott, John Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Chater, Daniel Aske, Sir Robert Broad, Francis Alfred Cluse, W. S. Attlee, Clement Richard Bromfield, William Cocks, Frederick Seymour Ayles, Walter Bromley, J. Compton, Joseph Barnes, Alfred John Brooke, W. Daggar, George Bellamy, Albert Brothers, M. Dallas, George Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood Brown, C. W. E. (Notts. Mansfield) Davies, E. C. (Montgomery) Bennett, William (Battersea, South) Brown, Ernest (Leith) Denman, Hon. R. D. Benson, G. Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Dickson, T. Dukes, C. Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.) Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) Duncan, Charles Lees, J. Romeril, H. G. Ede, James Chuter Lewis, T. (Southampton) Rosbotham, D. S. T. Edge, Sir William Lindley, Fred W. Rowson, Guy Edmunds, J. E. Lloyd, C. Ellis Salter, Dr. Alfred Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Longbottom, A. W. Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen) Edwards, E. (Morpeth) Longden, F. Samuel, H. W. (Swansea, West) Egan, W. H. Lovat-Fraser, J. A. Sanders, W. S. Eimley, Viscount Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) Sawyer, G. F. Foot, Isaac, MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham) Scurr, John Freeman, Peter McElwee, A. Sexton, James Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) McEntee, V. L. Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.) Mackinder, W. Sherwood, G. H. George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) McKinlay, A. Shield, George William Gill, T. H. Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Shillaker, J. F. Glassey, A. E. McShane, John James Shinwell, E. Gossling, A. G. Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Simmons, C. J. Gould, F. Mander, Geoffrey le M. Simon, E. D. (Manch'ter, Withington) Gray, Milner Mansfield, W. Sinkinson, George Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne) Marcus, M. Sitch, Charles H. Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Markham, S. F. Smith, Alfred (Sunderland) Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.) Marley, J. Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Mathers, George Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Groves, Thomas E. Matters, L. W. Smith, Tom (Pontefract) Grundy, Thomas W. Melville, Sir James Smith, W. R. (Norwich) Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Messer, Fred Snowden, Thomas (Accrington) Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Middleton, G. Sorensen, R. Hall, Capt. W. P. (Portsmouth, C.) Millar, J. D. Spero, Dr. G. E. Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn) Milner, J. Stamford, Thomas W. Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Zetland) Morgan, Dr. H. B. Strauss, G. R. Harris, Percy A. Morley, Ralph Sutton, J. E. Haycock, A. W. Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh) Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S. W.) Hayday, Arthur Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South) Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby) Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.) Thurtle, Ernest Henderson, Arthur, junr. (Cardiff, S.) Mort, D. L. Tinker, John Joseph Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) Moses, J. J. H. Tout, W. J. Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent) Townend, A. E. Herriotts, J. Mosley, Sir Oswald (Smethwick) Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth) Muff, G. Turner, B. Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Muggeridge, H. T. Vaughan, D. J. Hoffman, P. C. Murnin, Hugh Viant, S. P. Hollins, A. Nathan, Major H. L. Wallace, H. W. Hopkin, Daniel Naylor, T. E. Watkins, F. C. Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Hunter, Dr. Joseph Noel Baker, P. J. Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R. Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston) Wellock, Wilfred Isaacs, George Owen, Major G. (Carnarvon) Welsh, James (Paisley) Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Owen, H. F. (Hereford) West, F. R. John, William (Rhondda, West) Palin, John Henry White, H. G. Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood) Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Perry, S. F. Whiteley, William (Blaydon) Jowitt, Rt. Hon. Sir W. A. Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Wilkinson, Ellen C. Kennedy, Thomas Phillips, Dr. Marion Williams, David (Swansea, East) Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton) Picton-Turbervill, Edith Williams Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Lang, Gordon Potts, John S. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George Price, M. P. Wilson, J. (Oldham) Lathan, G. Pybus, Percy John Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Law, Albert (Bolton) Ramsay, T. B. Wilson Winterton, G. E. (Leicester, Loughb'gh) Law, A. (Rosendale) Rathbone, Eleanor Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff) Lawrence, Susan Raynes, W. R. Wright, W. (Rutherglen) Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge) Richards, R. Lawson, John James Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle) Riley, Ben (Dewsbury) Mr. Hayes and Mr. Wilfrid Paling. Leach, W. Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees) NOES. Albery, Irving James Burton, Colonel H. W. Cranbourne, Viscount Atholl, Duchess of Butler, R. A. Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley) Butt, Sir Alfred Croom-Johnson, R. P. Balfour, George (Hampstead) Carver, Major W. H. Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West) Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet) Castle Stewart, Earl of Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Balniel, Lord Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Dalkeith, Earl of Beckett, John (Camberwell, Peckham) Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Dairymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey Bevan, S. J. (Holborn) Cadwick, Sir Robert Burton Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford) Bird, Ernest Roy Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.) Davies, Dr. Vernon Boothby, R. J. G. Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston) Dawson, Sir Philip Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Christie, J. A. Duckworth, G. A. V. Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W. Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George Dudgeon, Major C. R. Boyce, H. L. Cohen, Major J. Brunel Dugdale, Capt. T. L. Bracken, B. Colman, N. C. D. Eden, Captain Anthony Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) Colville, Major D. J. Edmondson, Major A. J. Brown, W. J. (Wolverhampton, West) Courtauld, Major J. S. Elliot, Major Walter E. Buchanan, G. Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. England, Colonel A. Bullock, Captain Malcolm Cowan, D. M. Everard, W. Lindsay Ferguson, Sir John Law, Sir Alfred (Derby, High Peak) Savery, S. S. Fermoy, Lord Leighton, Major B. E. P. Scrymgeour, E. Fison, F. G. Clavering Little, Dr. E. Graham Shakespeare, Geoffrey H. Ford, Sir P. J. Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Locker-Lampson, Com. O.(Handsw'th) Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Long, Major Erie Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Ganzoni, Sir John Lymington, Viscount Smith-Carington, Neville W. Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley) Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Smithers, Waldron Glyn, Major R. G. C. Mitchell-Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East) Grace, John Makins, Brigadier-General E. Southby, Commander A. R. J. Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Marjoribanks, E. C. Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Granville, E. Maxton, James Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland) Greene, W. P. Crawford Mond, Hon. Henry Stephen. Campbell Gunston, Captain D. W. Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. Stuart, J. C. (Moray and Nairn) Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F. Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford) Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury) Thomson, Sir F. Hammersley, S. S. Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester) Todd, Capt. A. J. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Harbord, A. Muirhead, A. J. Turton, Robert Hugh Hartington, Marquess of Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld) Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) O'Neill, Sir H. Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey) Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd, Henley) Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Peake, Capt. Osbert Wardlaw-Milne, J. S. Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Warrender, Sir Victor Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller Power, Sir John Cecil Waterhouse, Captain Charles Hore-Belisha, Leslie Pownall, Sir Assheton Wayland, Sir William A. Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. Ramsbotham, H. Wells, Sydney R. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Remer, John R. Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Rentoul, Sir Gervals S. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) Ross, Major Ronald D. Winterton. Rt. Hon. Earl Kedward, R. M. (Kent, Ashford) Rothschild, J. de Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount Kindersley, Major G. M. Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. Womersley, W. J. Kinley, J. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton Kirkwood, D. Salmon, Major I. Knox, Sir Alfred Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Lamb, Sir J. O. Sandham, E. Captain Margesson and Sir George Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D. Penny.
Question put accordingly, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 198; Noes, 20.
Division No. 68.] AYES. [11.48 p.m. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Ede, James Chuter Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton) Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Edmunds, J. E. Lang, Gordon Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro') Edwards, E. (Morpeth) Lathan, G. Alpass, J. H. Egan, W. H. Law, Albert (Bolton) Amman, Charles George Foot, Isaac Law, A. (Rosendale) Arnott, John Freeman, Peter Lawrence, Susan Attlee, Clement Richard Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge) Ayles, Walter Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.) Lawson, John James Barnes, Alfred John Gill, T. H. Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle) Bellamy, Albert Gossling, A. G. Loach, W. Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood Gould, F. Lee, Frank (Derby, N. E.) Bennett, William (Battersea, South) Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne) Lees, J. Benson, G. Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Lewis, T. (Southampton) Bentham, Dr. Ethel Groves, Thomas E. Lindley, Fred W. Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret Grundy, Thomas W. Lloyd, C. Ellis Bowen, J. W. Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Longbottom, A. W. Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Lovat-Fraser, J. A. Broad, Francis Alfred Hall, Capt. W. P. (Portsmouth, C.) Macdonald. Gordon (Ince) Bromfield, William Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn) MacDonald. Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham) Bromley, J. Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Zetland) McElwee, A. Brooke, W. Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) McEntee, V. L. Brothers, M. Henderson, Arthur, junr. (Cardiff, S.) Mackinder, W. Brown, C. W. E. (Notts. Mansfield Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) McKinlay, A. Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Burgess, F. G. Herriotts, J. Mansfield. W. Cape, Thomas Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth) Marcus, M. Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.) Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Markham, S. F. Charleton, H. C. Hoffman, P. C. Mathers, George Chater, Daniel Hollins, A. Matters, L. W. Cluse, W. S. Hopkin, Daniel Melville. Sir James Cocks, Frederick Seymour Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) Messer, Fred Compton, Joseph Isaacs, George Middleton, G. Daggar, George Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Millar, J. D. Dallas, George John, William (Rhondda, West) Milner, J. Denman, Hon. R. D. Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne) Morley. Raiph Dickson, T. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh) Dukes, C. Jowitt, Rt. Hon. Sir W. A. Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South) Duncan, Charles Kennedy, Thomas Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham. N.)
Mort, D. L. Samuel, H. W. (Swansea, West) Tinker, John Joseph Moses, J. J. H. Sanders, W. S. Tout, W. J. Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent) Sawyer, G. F. Townend, A. E. Mosley, Sir Oswald (Smethwick) Scurr, John Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Muff, G. Sexton, James Turner, B. Muggeridge, H. T. Sherwood, G. H. Vaughan, D. J. Murnin, Hugh Shield, George William Viant, S. P. Naylor, T. E. Shillaker, J. F. Wallace, H. W. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Shinwell, E. Watkins, F. C. Noel Baker, P. J. Simmons, C. J. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston) Simon, E. D. (Manch'ter, Withington) Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Palin, John Henry Sinkinson, George Wellock, Wilfred Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Sitch, Charles H. Welsh, James (Paisley) Perry, S. F. Smith, Alfred (Sunderland) West, F. R. Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood) Phillips, Dr. Marion Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Whiteley, William (Blaydon) Picton-Turbervill, Edith Smith, Tom (Pontefract) Wilkinson, Ellen C. Potts, John S. Smith, W. R. (Norwich) Williams, David (Swansea, East) Price, M. P. Snowden, Thomas (Accrington) Williams Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Raynes, W. R. Sorensen, R. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Richards, R. Spero, Dr. G. E. Wilson, J. (Oldham) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Stamford, Thomas W. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Riley, Ben (Dewsbury) Strachey, E. J. St. Loe Winterton, G. E. (Leicester, Loughb'gh) Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees) Strauss, G. R. Wright, W. (Rutherglen) Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) Sutton, J. E. Young, R. S. (Islington, North) Romeril, H. G. Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.) Rosbotham, D. S. T. Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Salter, Dr. Alfred Thurtle, Ernest Mr. Hayes and Mr. Wilfrid Paling. NOES. Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley) Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. Sandham, E. Brockway, A. Fenner Kelly, W. T. Scrymgeour, E. Brown, W. J. (Wolverhampton, West) Kinley, J. Stephen, Campbell Buchanan, G. Longden, F. Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. Devlin, Joseph Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Haycock, A. W. McShane, John James TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Hore-Belisha, Leslie Maxton, James Mr. Beckett and Mr. Kirkwood. Horrabin, J. F. Morgan, Dr. H. B.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
I do not wish to delay the proceedings, but I want to ask the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury a question. We are given to understand that the intention of the Government was to reach the end of Clause 3 of the Bill. While no one on this side would wish to resist the Motion, I wish to know how far it is intended to go to-morrow should the Eleven o'Clock Rule be suspended; and, secondly, whether the rumours are true— I hope they are not—that it is the intention of the Government to take a number of Supplementary Estimates to-night?
How far we shall go to-morrow depends on circumstances. I hope we shall make better progress to-morrow than we have made to-day, but I can say no more than that. So far as Supplementary Estimates are concerned I think it will be agreed that they were fully debated in Committee and should go through tonight in a very few minutes.
Will the hon. Gentleman say what are the circumstances to which he refers?
12.0 m.
It is most unreasonable for the Parliamentary Secretary to assume that the Supplementary Estimates will be put through in a few minutes. That is treating the House with scant respect. I think that we should now be given some idea of the amount of business which we are expected to get through to-morrow. I think, on reflection, the Parliamentary Secretary will see the advisability of giving a fuller answer to the questions which have been put to him.
Anyone occupying the position which I occupy could not possibly give a fuller answer. I have never heard of any Minister being asked to say how far we shall be able to go with the business for the following day.
We want to know how far we are expected to go in order to satisfy the Government. We want this information in order to facilitate progress up to the point which the Government have in mind. If we have some indication of that sort, I am sure that it will be in the interests of progress.
There is a Money Resolution on the Order Paper dealing with the question of coast protection. I should like to know whether it is the intention of the Government to take that Order or postpone it?
Will the Parliamentary Secretary say if the Government propose to take the Indemnity Bill as the first Order to-morrow, and will he say whether it is the intention to have an all-night sitting to-morrow? I think that we have a right to have an answer to these questions, because we are anxious to facilitate business.
It is proposed to take the Indemnity Bill as the first Order to-morrow. If we are able to-morrow to make progress with the Unemployment Insurance Bill to the extent of passing Clauses 4 and 5, we shall be satisfied.
Question put, and agreed to.
Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.
Supply
REPORT [28TH NOVEMBER].
Resolutions reported:
Civil Estimates, Supplementary Estimate, 1929
Class VII
1. "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1930, for Expenditure in respect of Miscellaneous Legal Buildings, including the whole additional cost of a new Sheriff Court House at Edinburgh."
2. "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1930, for expenditure in respect of Public Buildings Overseas."
Class X
3. "That a sum, not exceeding £1,200,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1930, in excess of the amount to be paid from the Rating Relief Suspense Account, for a Grant-in-Aid to Rating Authorities in Scotland in respect of Loss of Rates during the year 16th May, 1929 to 15th May, 1930, in pursuance of Section 75 of the Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1929."
Class II
4. "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £500,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1930, for 6undry Dominion Services, including certain Grants-in-Aid, for certain ex-gratia Grants, and for expenditure in connection with Ex-Service Men in the Irish Free State."
First Resolution read a Second time,
I beg to move to leave out "£10" and to insert instead thereof "£5."
The Debate that took place on Thursday was really most unsatisfactory. Many of us endeavoured to obtain information from the First Commissioner of Works and, beyond a somewhat irritating attitude towards the hon. Member for Farnham (Mr. A. M. Samuel), we were unable to obtain any information at all. Those of us who are interested in the legal profession realise the great importance of the county courts, which are, after all, the courts of the people. That is what hon. Members opposite, in treating this matter so lightly, fail to realise. If they realised the congested state of those courts and the absolute absence of proper accommodation, the absence of rooms where consultations can take place, and barristers and solicitors can meet their clients and discuss in privacy the matters that are later to come before the court, they would realise that a Vote connected with alterations, or with the building of any county court in the land, was a matter not to be lightly passed over. I do not think the right hon. Gentleman has dealt quite fairly with us. He has spent a great deal of his time in the last few months in dealing with Hyde Park and photography. If he had spent a little more time in dealing with really grave matters that affect the people, we might have let the matter go through without the scrupulous care that we intend to employ to-night. I find the matter is put in a way that certainly does not meet with my approval. It says the anticipated savings on new works services amount to a sum which is within £10 of the actual amount spent on new county courts. That really is not the way to deal with the House in connection with a large sum of nearly £5,000. We must retain some kind of hold over financial matters.
What are these buildings upon which the Minister intends to make these anticipated savings? We have never been told. Before we have savings on any public service, we are entitled to know where they are going to take place. Expenditure is one thing, and savings is another. Hon. Members opposite are very able at spending, but I should like to see where they intend to save. I should like the right hon. Gentleman to tell us upon what service he intends to effect these savings, and also to give some slight idea of how he has been able to anticipate savings which have not yet been made. I should like to ask whether he has been to this County Court and seen the premises. It is no good talking about 14 or 16 years with a vague right of purchase of the lease. It is not right for the Government to spend nearly £9,000 on the purchase of leasehold premises without knowing something further about the actual right to purchase eventually. On that matter, we are entitled to further particulars. We have not had a single word from the Minister as to how these mysterious savings of his, which amount to within £10 of what he has spent, have been or will be incurred.
A small point arises on this Vote on which we desired to obtain information, the other day, but, owing to the quickness with which the Estimates were dismissed, we were unable to get an answer. It is in reference to this item of £640 for furniture and fittings. The hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Remer) asked the question. We wanted to know whether these articles of furniture and fittings were of home production, or whether they were doors and cupboards imported ready-made from Riga, which we shall discuss shortly, Scandinavia, Finland, or even Russia itself. [ Interruption. ] I see that this point appeals to hon. Members opposite just as much as it does to us on these benches. Surely, as the right hon. Gentleman and two of his colleagues—the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and the Lord Privy Seal—are so concerned solving, I am afraid very unsuccessfully, the problem of unemployment, it should hardly be one of his first acts in his new office to import £640 of foreign-made furniture. In the right hon. Gentleman's own interests, as well as in the interests of the country at large, we should have some information in regard to these fittings and furnishings upon which a sum of £640 is about to be spent.
Far be it from me to occupy the House for more than a short time at this early hour of the morning, but really the Government cannot complain if we on this side of the House who, together with hon. Members opposite, are the guardians of the nation's purse, feel that we cannot allow these large sums of money to go through at a late hour like this without any debate whatever. I have been in this House for some time now, although I do not look very old, and I have never seen business put through in such an extraordinary manner as it is being put through by the Socialist party at the present time. Every day we are given a list of items which are supposed to be fully discussed in this House, and, when we protest that we have not been given sufficient time in which to discuss them, we are told that they are in the Socialist programme and that therefore they must go through, even if we have to sit all night. It is a perfectly ridiculous idea, and we are perfectly justified, whatever the hour and whatever may be the inconvenience to ourselves, in thoroughly probing into the mysteries of Supplementary Estimates, which often contain things which want a good deal of elucidation. Cannot the Supplementary Estimates be made a little more simple. The particular County Court which we are discussing comes at the bottom of page V of the Supplementary Estimate, and, as far as we can see, the total Estimate is arrived at as follows: Works Services, £9,045; Furniture and Fittings, £640. Then, where you would expect to have the total, you have £4,800, less Anticipated Savings on other New Works Services, £4,790; making a sum of £10. That does not seem to be a very simple way of explaining what you want. Very few people here would be able to discover exactly what this particular Court is going to cost; what has been spent on it, and what is going to be spent on it.
I see that the First Commissioner of Works says that the premises belong to some people called "Constitutional Hall, Harlesden." Most of the constitutional halls throughout the country belong to some part of the Conservative organisation. I want to know whether this hall has anything to do with some political organisation, whether it is an old political club, and, if so, for what reason it is being got rid of. Is this constitutional hall part of the party organisation to which I belong? [ Interruption. ] When the hon. Member has been a little longer in this House he will discover that it is usual to rise when making an interjection. This proposed county court building is leasehold. Could it not be arranged to have a freehold building instead of a leasehold? I cannot help thinking that if the First Commissioner of Works would have a look round the neighbourhood he would be able to find a suitable court that is freehold. We know very little as to what the building will look like. Most constitutional halls and buildings of that kind are forbidding buildings. British justice is well paid, and it seems a great pity that Courts of Justice like this should not be housed in suitable premises. Are all the materials used to be British? The hon. and gallant Member for Chippenham (Captain Cazalet) raised a point about the furniture. No answer has yet been given upon that point. I hope that the materials will be British and that the workmen will be British. I also hope that the First Commissioner will see that a proper fair wages clause is inserted in the contracts. We are entitled to answers to these questions. Members of this House are guardians of the public purse, and they should spend the nation's money as they would spend their own.
The Government propose to spend a considerable sum upon a leasehold. When you buy a leasehold it does not mean that you are going to have possession for a very long time. I am given to understand that a great deal of the property in Harlesden belongs to All Souls College; many of the streets are named after the Dons of the college. I want to ask whether this leasehold is being bought from All Souls College. If so, a considerable amount of money is being paid for a leasehold to a very wealthy and opulent college. I assure the right hon. Gentleman that this is a most serious subject. It is giving a great deal of money to a body which is in possession already of considerable sums of money. I want to know what really are the terms of the bargain; and if it is not All Souls College, from whom this leasehold is being bought.
I wish to raise a rather different note in connection with this Estimate. It has always occurred to me that when small votes of this kind, what are called token votes, are presented they require the closest and most careful scrutiny, and for this reason. Any business man will agree that he must pay the greatest possible attention when figures are submitted to him and he is asked to keep an account open in order that certain works may be completed. It is necessary to inquire whether all the facts and figures of the total expenditure are fully explored, so that once you have consented to keep an account open you are satisfied that you know the total of your commitments.
A very sensible observation.
That is praise indeed. I am sure that far too little attention is paid in this House to votes of this kind. If we look at the first item in connection with the new court house we see a sum of £22,000 and a revised Estimate of £10 more. Does the right hon. Gentleman mean to tell me that the revised Estimate is £10? I do not wish to embarrass the right hon. Gentleman. If he says frankly that this is a mere token Vote to enable him to keep the account open and that the full amount may be £350 or £250 I quite agree that £10 is quite as good a figure as £350, and nobody would cavil at the difference between a £10 token Vote and an actual cleaning up of the account by an amount of £350. We want to know whether the £22,000 will ultimately amount to £30,000. I can quite understand that the First Commissioner of Works treats this with ribaldry and as a matter which ought not to receive serious attention.
I ask quite seriously: Has the right hon. Gentleman got the facts and figures of the forecast and the authority of his responsible officers that they require an additional sum of so much in order to clean up the account, or is it his intention to keep the account open by a token Vote of £10, and then come down to the House of Commons for a Supplementary Estimate? That is the seriousness of it; that is the point. Take the other item. It is a remarkable fact that we have a similar sum of £4,800, and they are asking for a token Vote because they have savings on something. What are the details of those savings? Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that they are to be definitely effected? It does not say: "Less savings already accounted for." He did not require to revise his original estimate, but only to keep it open for a small sum, as he had already effected savings of £4,790. What has he got to submit to show savings of £4,790? We are entitled to know that the right hon. Gentleman has not only reasonable grounds, but sound grounds, on the advice of his executive officers, that these savings will be forthcoming. In the absence of any such statement, we are not only entitled, but it is our duty, to raise this matter and bring it to a conclusion.
Hon. Members opposite who were here when we took these Estimates on the last occasion will agree with me that most of the questions that have just been raised were answered on that occasion. [ Interruption. ] The only answer to that is that the OFFICIAL REPOET is the record. I am asked how many years the lease has to run. I told the House before that it had 46 years to run.
You said 16 years.
Excuse me, I said 46 years. I was asked, what about the freehold—what efforts had been made to obtain the freehold—and I told the Committee that we hoped, long before the period to which the lease ran, that the freehold would be obtained. The only question I was not asked was as to who is the owner of the freehold. I understand that All Souls College, Oxford, are the owners of the freehold, and we shall hope that a corporation of that kind will make as fair a bargain with the Government as any private person in the country. I do not wish to think evil of All Souls College. The next question raised is that no one has yet said where the savings came from. I answered a question this afternoon on that matter, and I referred the hon. Member who asked it to the statement that I made when the Estimate was before the Committee. The savings—and they are very considerable savings—are made owing to the fact that Clerkenwell Courthouse cannot be got on with because those who are to occupy that Court wish for some alterations to be made which necessitate putting the work off until February. A matter of £12,000 is involved there, and the £4,790 is part of that amount.
My point was that these are not savings, but only postponed expenditure, and there is a great difference.
If the hon. Member had been here when the Supplementary Estimates were discussed, he would know perfectly well that I pointed out that we should need the extra money when our Estimates came before Parliament in the next financial year. I stated that from this bench. I have also been told that I did not answer the question with regard to furniture. The point was put to me by the hon. Member for Basingstoke (Viscount Lymington) that I ought to save expenditure on furniture, not by giving work to the unemployed, but by using old furniture that, in his imagination, the Office of Works has got stored away somewhere. I said in reply to him, and also in reply to the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Remer), that I hoped to satisfy both of them that we would use what furniture we could from what we had in hand, and that when any new furniture was needed we would get it from this country. I do not think that we shall be able to get the wood from this country, because I am not sure that the wood exists here to make the various articles of furniture required; but, so far as buying furniture is concerned, the Office of Works, the same as other Government Departments, is under an order from the Treasury, which has not been cancelled, to buy goods in this country wherever that is possible. I suppose that hon. Members opposite do not object to that.
There is one other question which was raised by the hon. and gallant Member for North Hackney (Captain A. Hudson). He wants the Estimates prepared in a more simple manner. That is a matter for the Treasury rather than for me, and I am sorry that the need has not been discovered earlier. This is not a simple way of preparing them, and, as I am a simple person, I shall be very glad if they can be prepared more simply. The present owners of the hall are the Constitutional Halls, Ltd. I think, perhaps, that is something to do with the organisation that is represented by the Conservative party, but I do not know that it is any the worse for that. The hon. Member for Hampstead (Mr. Balfour) was very anxious to know whether this proposal was "O.K."—or, shall I say, whether it had been passed on to me as correct by the responsible officers of the Department. Certainly it has; and I am surprised that he should have asked me such a question. Obviously, I should not come here and put before the House this question of a purchase of the building unless it had been properly inspected and the whole question thoroughly gone into by the responsible officers of the Department. All the questions have now been answered twice over, and I hope the House will allow this Estimate to go through.
The right hon. Gentleman really must not say that all of the questions have been answered twice over. While I congratulate him on having a much larger fund of information ready than he had on the Committee stage—
Excuse me, if the right hon. Gentleman will look at the OFFICIAL REPORT and find that I am wrong I am perfectly ready to be corrected, but I do not admit that I made an error.
The House has, of course, officially no knowledge of the proceedings in Committee. I should not have referred to the proceedings in Committee at all had not the right hon. Gentleman insisted on his virtue in the Committee stage. In the Committee stage he began by saying that there were two main questions which he had to answer. The first was as to the length of the lease; the second was as to where the savings came from. It is perfectly obvious to everyone that those are the two main questions which go to the root of the matter. They concern the principle of the matter. The right hon. Gentleman spent, as he will see if he looks at Column 1675 of the OFFICIAL REPORT, quite a considerable time in giving information with regard to the first of the two main questions, namely, the length of the lease. When, however, he came to the second question about the savings, he unfortunately had a slight altercation with the hon. Member for Farnham (Mr. A. M. Samuel) and by reason of that altercation with my hon. Friend none of the explanation which we have had to-night really materialised at all. If he charges his memory afresh and refers to the OFFICIAL REPORT, he will see that that was so, and that, beyond merely saying that the savings were in connection with the Clerkenwell County Court, he did not enlarge any further on the question.
May I read what I said on that occasion?
"We save, quite truthfully, on the Clerkenwell Court, and the reason for that is that since this question of the Clerkenwell Court has been under discussion there have been continual changes and different proposals for dealing with that Court, and the Department have not been able to get on with the job."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 28th November, 1929; col. 1672, Vol. 232.]
Withdraw!
I have the privilege which the right hon. Member opposite has of having what I was speaking about before me in the full account given in the OFFICIAL REPORT. It shows that what happened is as I stated. The right hon. Gentleman said:
"The other question was as to where the savings come from. I do not think the hon. Gentleman the Member for Farnham (Mr. A. M. Samuel) or the right hon. Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood) can have any doubt as to the sort of thing this savings business is."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 28th November, 1929; col. 1676, Vol. 232.]
Then follows the passage which he has quoted and of which I have already given the effect. Beyond that, he did not say how the savings were arrived at.
I said that it was a question of accounting.
Then came the unfortunate altercation with my right hon. Friend and the result was that this question of accounting was not explained at all, and we never had a word about it until to-night. Even now the House has not been told why it is that there is this underspending this year. Let me remind the House that there have already been very considerable savings made on the part of the Department in this matter. The facts with regard to Clerkenwell County Court are that up to 31st March, the expenditure was £2,625 while the amount voted was £4,000. The amount voted this year is £12,000 and there remains still to be voted, still required next year, £3,375. It is of that £12,000 that the right hon. Gentleman now says that over 33 per cent., £4,700, is actually to be underspent this year.
The whole of it.
The whole £12,000?
Yes.
I ask any Member of the House who listened to the right hon. Gentleman's explanation if anyone realised that the whole of the £12,000 was not to be spent? Did not every Member who listened to him gather that all that was underspent was the £4,700. I should like to know this from the right hon. Gentleman. There is already, as the Financial Secretary to the Treasury well knows, a large proportion of underspending owing to shortage of opportunity during the year. When Departments submit their Estimates the Treasury themselves revise them in the first place. There is a secret cut in the Estimates on the ground of probable underspending. There is then an open cut shown in the Estimates. Here is a case where £12,000 has been extracted from the pockets of the taxpayer last year. It is no use saying that it was extracted by a Tory Government when it has not been spent by the Socialist Government at a moment when we are told that every Department is straining every nerve to increase employment. What you have done, in fact, is to raise £12,000 from the taxpayer, and then you have this underspending. In those cir-
cumstances, I do not think anybody can say that the explanation that we have had from the right hon. Gentleman either was not required or, when it was given, was wholly satisfactory.
May I clear this matter up. The statement I made about the savings was that the amount allocated to the Clerkenwell Court had not been spent for various reasons. I went on to give the information, in reply to questions put to me, that we hope to commence the work in February, and that therefore a considerable portion of the £12,000 will be spent before the end of the financial year. We are at present in December, and we hope to start on this building in February. It has not been started earlier because of alterations which those who are going to use the court have asked us to make.
The right hon. Gentleman has not really explained the matter which was stressed most strongly from these benches. Why have these changes taken such a long time?
Because we have been five months in office, and it takes a long time to get judges to make up their mind.
The point we have been pressing is this. Here was this money available to the Office of Works, and here we are with hundreds of thousands of men unemployed. The right hon. Gentleman himself is responsible for finding as much employment as he can for the unemployed men in the country, and yet, although he has £12,000 at his disposal, he tells us that he is not going to use it. He is not going to start work until February. He seems very proud that he is going to start in February. We want a reason from him why he has not used the money earlier.
Question put, "That '£10' stand part of the Resolution."
The House divided: Ayes, 159; Noes, 74.
Division No. 69.] AYES. [12.49 a.m. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley) Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale) Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Barnes, Alfred John Bowen, J. W. Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Bellamy, Albert Brooke, W. Alexander, Rt. Han. A. V. (Hillsbro') Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood Brown, C. W. E. (Notts. Mansfield) Alpass, J. H. Bennett, William (Battersea, South) Brown, Ernest (Leith) Arnott, John Benson, G. Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Aske, Sir Robert Bentham, Dr. Ethel Brown, W. J. (Wolverhampton, West
Buchanan, G. Kennedy, Thomas Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Burgess, F. G. Kinley, J. Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees) Burgin, Dr. E. L. Lang, Gordon Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) Caine, Derwent Hall- Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George Romeril, H. G. Cameron, A. G. Lathan, G. Rosbotham, D. S. T. Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.) Law, A. (Rosendale) Rowson, Guy Charleton, H. C. Lawrence, Susan Samuel, H. W. (Swansea, West) Cocks, Frederick Seymour Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge) Sanders, W. S. Compton, Joseph Lawson, John James Sandham, E. Daggar, George Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle) Sawyer, G. F. Dallas, George Leach, W. Scurr, John Denman, Hon. R. D. Lees, J. Shakespeare, Geoffrey H. Dickson, T. Lindley, Fred W. Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Oudgeon, Major C. R. Lloyd, C. Ellis Shield, George William Dukes, C. Longbottom, A. W. Shillaker, J. F. Ede, James Chuter Longden, F. Sinkinson, George Edge, Sir William Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) Sitch, Charles H. Edmunds, J. E. McElwee, A. Smith, Alfred (Sunderland) Edwards, E. (Morpeth) Mackinder, W. Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) Egan, W. H. McKinlay, A. Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Elmley, Viscount McShane, John James Smith, Tom (Pontefract) Foot, Isaac Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Smith, W. R. (Norwich) Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) Mansfield, W. Snowden, Thomas (Accrington) Gill, T. H. Marcus, M. Sorensen, R. Glassey, A. E. Marley, J. Spero, Dr. G. E. Gossling, A. G. Mathers, George Stephen, Campbell Gray, Milner Matters, L. W. Strachey, E. J. St. Loe Greenwood Rt. Hon. A. (Colne). Maxton, James Strauss, G. R. Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Melville, Sir James Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S. W.) Groves, Thomas E. Middleton, G. Tinker, John Joseph Hall, Capt. W. P. (Portsmouth, C.) Milner, J. Tout, W. J. Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn) Morgan, Dr. H. B. Vaughan, D. J. Haycock, A. W. Mort, D. L. Wallace, H. W. Hayday, Arthur Moses, J. J. H. Watkins, F. C. Hayes, John Henry Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent) Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Henderson, Arthur, junr. (Cardiff, S.) Mosley, Sir Oswald (Smethwick) Wellock, Wilfred Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) Muggeridge, H. T. Welsh, James (Paisley) Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) Nathan, Major H. L. Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Lady wood) Herriotts, J. Noel Baker, P. J. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Hopkin, Daniel Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston) Wilson R. J. (Jarrow) Horrabin, J. F. Owen, Major G. (Carnarvon) Winterton, G. E.(Leicester, Loughb'gh) Hunter, Dr. Joseph Paling, Wilfrid Wise, E. F. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff) John, William (Rhondda, West) Picton-Turbervill, Edith Young, R. S. (Islington, North) Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. Potts. John S. Jowitt, Rt. Hon. Sir W. A. Price, M. P. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Kelly, W. T. Raynes, W. R. Mr. Parkinson and Mr. Charles Edwards. NOES. Albery, Irving James Gunston, Captain D. W. Ross, Major Ronald D. Balfour, George (Hampstead) Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet) Hartington, Marquess of Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Balniel, Lord Harvey, Majors. E. (Devon, Totnes) Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome Bird, Ernest Roy Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield. Hallam) Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W. Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. Smithers, Waldron Boyce, H. L. Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. Southby, Commander A. R. J. Bracken, B. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Thomson, Sir F. Butler, R. A. Knox, Sir Alfred Turton, Robert Hugh Carver, Major W. H. Leighton, Major B. E. P. Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey) Cockerill. Brig.-General Sir George Lymington, Viscount Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) Colville, Major D. J. Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Wardlaw-Milne, J. S. Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West) Margesson, Captain H. D. Warrender, Sir Victor Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford) Marjoribanks, E. C. Waterhouse, Captain Charles Dawson, Sir Philip Mitchell-Thomson. Rt. Hon. Sir W. Wayland, Sir William A. Duckworth, G. A. V. Mond, Hon. Henry Wells, Sydney R. Edmondson, Major A. J. Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Everard, W. Lindsay Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Ferguson, Sir John Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester) Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount Fermoy, Lord Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William Womersley, W. J. Fison, F. G. Clavering Penny, Sir George Ford, Sir P. J. Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Fremantle Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Ramsbotham, H. Mr. Grace and Captain Cazalet. Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Remer, John R.
Question, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution," put, and agreed to.
Second Resolution read a Second time.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
I wish to move to leave out "£10," and to insert instead thereof "£5."
The hon. and gallant Member is too late.
I rise, then, to ask one or two questions on this Estimate. I do so because of the very sketchy reply that we received from the First Commissioner of Works on the Committee stage last week, and also as a protest against the absence of the Foreign Secretary. The right hon. Gentleman who replied to the Debate was quite unable to give an answer to the questions put. He said:
This Estimate involves a very grave principle. The right hon. Gentleman was unable to reply as to whether we were to continue the present system of having one Minister to represent those three Republics at Riga, Reval and Kovno, or whether we were to distribute the buildings and, incidentally, the money over the three Republics. This is merely a token Vote—the sum to be expended is far larger—but what is being done consolidates, or puts the corner stone on, a principle with which I am in profound disagreement. I cannot believe that British interests can be looked after satisfactorily by merely having one Minister to represent us in three distinct countries, and I maintain that, instead of spending this large sum at Riga, British interests would be very much better served with three buildings consistent with the dignity of the British Empire. As things are at present, the whole of the money is being spent in erecting one gigantic building at Riga. How can a British Minister living there attend to British interests in two other countries? I submit that British interests would be better served, and that it would be a far better advertisement to British trade, were buildings of lesser importance, but still buildings consistent with British dignity, erected, so that people there, traders and merchants, would see the British flag flying over them in the three countries. Is it possible for one Minister to supervise and foster British interests in three countries at the same time? I am not finding fault with the Minister in any way. The only thing from which he suffers is the inability to be in three places at once. If we are not going to have three Ministers, we ought to have three buildings—call them Consulates if you like—over which the British flag would fly and in which the British Minister would have a pied à terre. I intended to move the reduction of this vote as a protest against no representative of the Foreign Office being here. I hope the First Commissioner of Works will do his best to give a reply to the points that I have raised in this Debate.
I wish to raise one or two small points, but, as usual, they are of substance. I have been perusing a copy of the OFFICIAL REPORT, so that the Minister will not be able to say that we are asking again the same questions that we asked last week to which he has given answers, but, if I may say so, not in what we considered an adequate way. I trust the right hon. Gentleman will satisfy us with the answers which he gives to the questions that we are asking this evening. The point raised was whether we should have one building or three. I want to ask the Government what inquiries they are making regarding diplomatic services in these countries and what is the justification for building this somewhat large and expensive legation at Riga with the Minister remaining there and his headquarters there. Of course, when the occasion demands, and business calls him, he visits Kovno and not Revel but Tallina, which we were informed the other day is the proper capital of Estonia. When he visits these places, where does he stay? They are capital cities of friendly republics who have full diplomatic representatives in this City of London. It is only becoming to the dignity of this nation that our representative there should be suitably housed in their countries. Has he got his own buildings? If he has other buildings at his disposal in the other countries, why is the amount of money spent in Riga so excessive? The First Commissioner of Works says that savings are made in Tokio. Shall we have to find money on account of these savings next year, or are they some economies in the Embassy there, and how are these economies effected? These points are small, but they are of considerable substance. I have no doubt the reply of the right hon. Gentleman will also be short and full of substance.
Let me assure the House that my question is an important one. We have heard a good deal about the export of herrings. I want to ask the First Commissioner of Works what arrangements are being made on behalf of the great herring industry of this country, so that that particular commodity will be displayed. We were told that proper arrangements were made at this particular consulate to show British goods within these Republics. Since these three countries became Republics, with separate Governments apart from Russia, our exports to them have gone up by leaps and bounds. This is an important matter, because I want to know why we have this particular arrangement to have just one representative in three Republics. Are we going in the other two Republics to get fair representation for the herring industry which the Government through their spokesmen have told us they desire to foster? I am glad to see the Secretary of State for Scotland here, and the Parliamentary Secretary of the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries is leaning on your Chair. The Government have said that they wish to do everything possible to bring prosperity to the industry.
We are getting a long way from the Resolution.
My constituents are affected by this arrangement, and they will regard my standing here as nothing detrimental to me. I want the Minister to tell me if, by having just one consulate, we can have what we expect from the Government—proper representation on behalf of this very important industry, because the exports have gone up by leaps and bounds? It is really a fertile field for disposing of the herrings which our people are so anxious to sell. I want him to say whether this is just one consulate in one city, connected with one Republic only, or whether it can adequately represent that great industry.
I should like to answer the hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Womersley) first. I was asked on the last occasion whether there would be room in the building for the Department of Overseas Trade, and I replied that there will be accommodation for a commercial secretary. There is accommodation for tradespeople and others. Then I was asked by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Farnham (Mr. A. M. Samuel) during the previous debate:
"Will the Department of Overseas Trade be given accommodation?"
I replied:
"They have a commercial secretary, who will find accommodation in this building.
MR. SAMUEL: May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman gives a definite undertaking that the Department of Overseas Trade will be given proper accommodation?"
I replied:
"The Department will be represented by its commercial secretary, for whom there is full accommodation in this building."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 28th November, 1929; col. 1682, Vol. 232.]
In reply to the hon. Member for Grimsby, I say, therefore, that the Department will be provided with full accommodation for the commercial secretary. The hon. and gallant Member for Chippenham (Captain Cazalet) asked me a question about savings, and I answered it, but I do not think he was present when I answered it. I am reading from the OFFICIAL REPORT and I cannot give him a different answer to-day.
"Part of the saving is from Tokio and part from a building at Washington; but it is not money saved. We had not kept up with our work as quickly as we expected, and this is money which we have not yet spent. I expect that the money which we are using in this way will have to be made up in the next Estimates. It is not that we are not going to carry out the work, but it happens that there has been delay, and we have not been able to get on as fast as we expected; but I do not think that Tokio will suffer, and I am quite sure that Washington will not suffer, by the delay."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 28th November, 1929; col. 1683, Vol. 232.]
That is the answer as to where the savings come from. As for the other important questions, hon. Members cannot expect me to answer for the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs and say whether the policy adopted by the previous Government was right and whether it is sufficient that we should have one Minister for three capitals. When my right hon. Friend has had time to consider the question more fully, we shall see whether he arrives at the same conclusion. The hon. and gallant Member thought that we should have one Minister in each capital and probably, I dare say, he will come to the House and say so. I hope that he will square the previous Foreign Secretary, so that he will support the policy with which he agrees.
Question put, and agreed to.
Third Resolution read a Second time.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
Before this Vote is passed, I would like to put to the Secretary of State for Scotland one question. This is the total for a full year. It is a Vote of 60 per cent. of a total of £2,000,000 to make up for the loss of rates two years ago. It is due, not to a new Vote, but to the fact that an actual alteration was made which necessitates the Vote being brought forward in a different form. I would like to ask the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he can give the House any information as to whether this is likely to be adequate, or whether the 60 per cent. is likely to be smaller than is necessary under the Bill. The Secretary of State will know of the many peculiar decisions given in the Appeal Court as to what are, and are not, productive industries. I should like to ask him whether this 60 per cent. will cover the loss of rates in Scotland under that Act?
We are simply asked to deal with a Vote that was previously passed because a change has taken place. I hope my hon. Friend will not press the question referring to the decisions in the Law Courts.
May I just ask this question? We take it that at the moment the Government have no estimate as to whether this sum will be sufficient or not to meet the claims coming in.
This sum will be sufficient to meet the Vote that was passed before the change which made it necessary to have this sum again voted.
Question put, and agreed to.
Remaining Resolution agreed to.
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
It being after half-past Eleven of the clock, upon Monday evening, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned at twenty minutes after One o'clock.