House of Commons
Tuesday, December 3, 1929
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
Oral Answers to Questions
Questions
Cinematograph Films Act
asked the President of the Board of Trade how many occasions has his attention been drawn to persons infringing Part I of the Cinematograph Films Act; whether in any specific instances the advisory committee appointed under this Act have advised against prosecution; and in how many cases have prosecutions taken place?
Apart from minor irregularities discovered in the examination of renters' record books, six specific instances have come to the notice of my Department in which there were grounds for suspicion that an offence had been committed under Part I of the Act. In four cases prosecutions were launched, and in two, further investigation did not reveal grounds for prosecution. The answer to the second part of the question is in the negative.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether these prosecutions were against renters or exhibitors?
I should require notice of that question.
Mercantile Marine
Foreign Ships (Seamen)
asked the President of the Board of Trade what foreign countries place restrictions on the employment of seamen other than their own nationals in merchant vessels flying their flags; and to what extent is this carried out?
According to the latest information available, which was compiled early in 1925, a number of countries require a proportion of the crews of their merchant ships to be nationals. The requirements vary in the different countries, and I am sending my hon. and gallant Friend a summary of our information.
Unemployment
asked the President of the Board of Trade what is the total number of British seamen of all categories at the present time unemployed?
I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the answer I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Kirkdale (Mr. Sandham) on 28th November, of which I am sending him a copy.
Is not the unemployment of British seamen mainly due to the extent to which the home market of this country is open to competition from abroad?
British Ships (Lascars)
asked the President of the Board of Trade the number of lascars and Goanese, respectively, who are employed on British-owned ocean-going liners?
Of the total of 52,445 lascars (i.e., Asiatics and East Africans, whether of British or foreign nationality, employed under agreements for natives of Asia or East Africa which open and terminate in Asia) employed at 31st March, 1928, on sea-going steam or motor vessels registered in the United Kingdom, 26,951 were employed on passenger vessels. Separate information regarding Goanese is not available.
In view of the fact that many of these ships concerned are employed under Government contract to carry mails, may I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman will approach the owners of such ships with a view of seeing whether they could not be induced to employ British sailors?
I will certainly undertake to make inquiries on that point.
Shipping Repairs (Foreign Ports)
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will state what is the annual tonnage of British-owned shipping habitually using ports in Great Britain which undergoes dry docking or other repairs in neighbouring foreign ports?
I have made inquiry and regret to find that the information desired by my hon. Friend is not available.
Ex-Enemy Debts (Hungary)
asked the President of the Board of Trade what is the reason for the delay since July last in clearing off the balance of 5s. 6d. in the £ on accepted proved claims by British nationals against Hungary; and whether, in order to close down and prevent further administrative and staff expenditure at the Anglo-Hungarian branch of the Clearing Office for Enemy Debts, he will request the Hungarian Government to accelerate the remittance of the instalments agreed by that Government?
Under an agreement concluded with the Hungarian Government in October, 1925, the sum necessary to discharge the accepted proved claims by British nationals against that country is being paid by Hungary in fixed half-yearly instalments, and dividends are paid by the Clearing Office as and when these instalments are received.
— Domestic Exports from Great Britain and Northern Ireland. January-October. Domestic Exports from Germany. * January-October. January-October. Exports to all countries: £ £ Coal and lignite … … 40,013,000 21,408,000 All other merchandise … … 567,988,000 531,545,000 Total … … 608,001,000 552,953,000 * Including deliveries on account of Reparations, as under:— Including deliveries on account of Reparations, as under:—
£ Coal and lignite … … … 8,992,000 All other merchandise … … … 24,302,000 Total … … … 33,294,000
The Hungarian Government has punctually discharged its obligations under that Agreement, and I see no grounds on which at the present time I should be justified in suggesting any modification of the agreed arrangements.
In view of the fact that this Department has been winding up for eight years, can the right hon. Gentleman take steps to expedite the closing down?
That is another matter. If the hon. Member will give me notice, I will inquire.
Trade and Commerce
Exports, Great Britain and Germany
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can give the latest export figures for Great Britain and Germany to foreign countries, after deducting coal exports on the ground that they belong to the capital of the nation, and also bullion?
As the answer contains a table of figures, I will, with the hon. and gallant Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the reply :
The following table shows the total value of the domestic exports of merchandise from Great Britain and Northern Ireland and from Germany to all countries during the first 10 months of 1929, distinguishing the exports of coal from those of other merchandise.
Raw Silk (Consumption)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can give the consumption of raw silk in Great Britain in the year prior to the silk duties, the consumption in 1928, and the consumption for the available period of 1929, respectively?
As the answer is long, and contains a number of figures, I will, with the hon. and gallant Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the consumption of raw silk has more than doubled?
The figures certainly indicate a substantial increase.
Following is the reply :
The following table shows the weight of the net imports of raw silk and thrown silk into Great Britain and Northern Ireland, registered during the years 1924 and 1928 and the first 10 months of 1929.
Period. Net Imports * Raw Silk. Thrown Silk. Lbs. Lbs. 1924 760,370 27,095 1928 1,492,290 399,434 1929 (first ten months) 1,122,325 354,336 * i.e., Imports less Re-exports. i.e., Imports less Re-exports.
The figures for thrown silk have been included, since it appears that in 1924 some thrown silk may have been erroneously declared to the customs authorities as raw silk.
A small proportion of the thrown silk manufactured in the United Kingdom from imported raw silk was exported.
Merchandise Marks Act (Pumps)
asked the President of the Board of Trade if his attention has been called to contraventions of the order under the Merchandise Marks Act dealing with pumps; if he has received representations from the British Semi-Rotary Pumps Manufacturers' Association; if he is aware that certain merchants selling pumps are openly evading the order; and if he will state what steps he intends to take?
The attention of the Department has been called from time to time to cases in which it appeared that imported semi-rotary pumps were not being properly marked or that an indication of origin was not being given in advertisements. Satisfactory assurances have been obtained from the firms concerned. I shall be glad to look into any similar cases if the hon. Member will furnish me with particulars.
Russia
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he has any evidence to show whether direct shipments of China tea to Russia have been interrupted by the disturbances in China; and whether there has been any material increase in the export of British Empire tea to Russia during the last three months?
The data at present available are insufficient to show the effects of the dispute between Russia and China on the imports of tea into Russia. The trade statistics of the United Kingdom show that, during the three months August-October, 1929, the re-exports to Russia of tea imported into the United Kingdom from British India and Ceylon were substantially greater than in the corresponding period of 1928 or 1927. On the other hand, the Indian and Ceylon trade figures show that, during the three months July-September, 1929, the exports from India and Ceylon to Russia were substantially less than in the corresponding period of 1928.
asked the President of the Board of Trade what increase in trade has taken place between Great Britain and Russia during the period May to October, 1929, both months inclusive?
As the answer involves a table of figures I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the answer :
The following statement shows the total declared value of merchandise imported into and exported from Great Britain and Northern Ireland, consigned from and to the Soviet Union (Russia), registered during each month May to October, 1929.
Month. Total Imports consigned from Russia. Exports consigned to Russia. United Kingdom Produce and Manufactures. Imported Merchandise. 1929. £ £ £ May … … … … 1,894,000 410,000 295,000 June … … … … 1,662,000 232,000 170,000 July … … … … 3,051,000 356,000 360,000 August … … … … 3,148,000 317,000 282,000 September … … … … 2,348,000 294,000 293,000 October … … … … 4,030,000 404,000 340,000
As regard the imports, I should point out that an increase during the autumn months, as compared with the spring months, is a normal feature of the trade, being due to seasonal causes.
Tariff Truce (Conference)
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he has taken steps to inform the Government of the United States of the injury that their proposed new tariff is likely to inflict on our export trade to that country; and whether he has brought his suggestion of a tariff holiday, which he made at Geneva to the nations of the League, to the notice of the Government of the United States of America?
No formal intimation was made to the United States Government as to the effect which the proposed increases in the United States tariff were likely to have upon the export trade of this country; but certain memoranda relative to the trade in specific commodities, which had been submitted to His Majesty's Government by trade associations or firms in this country were communicated to the United States authorities. As regards the second part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given to him on 27th November by the Foreign Secretary. I may add that the Resolution of the Assembly on the subject of a tariff truce contemplates that both members of the League and non-member States should participate in the conference to be held early next year.
Arising out of the second part of the answer, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he will undertake some direct steps to communicate with the Government of the United States of America in regard to a tariff holiday?
The matter is under consideration, but I should not like to give the House any specific assurance this afternoon.
May I ask whether any correspondence has passed between the Government of the Dominion of Canada and the Board of Trade in relation to this matter?
That point does not arise on this question.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if any of the two Governments of the Dominions have expressed dissent from the proposal for a two years' tariff truce?
No communication has been received from any of His Majesty's Governments in the Dominions as to their attitude towards this proposal.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is in a position to make a statement to this House on the progress which is being made with the proposals which he submitted on 9th September at the tenth assembly of the League of Nations for the consideration of a tariff truce for a period of two years; and if he will give the text of the formal request made to members and non-members of the League following upon the recommendation of the second committee?
The proposals were embodied in a resolution of the Assembly which contained an invitation to members of the League and non-member States to attend a conference. I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT the text of the relevant parts of this resolution. I may add that His Majesty's Government in Great Britain have already accepted the invitation.
Apart from His Majesty's Government in Great Britain, has any other State throughout the world accepted the right hon. Gentleman's suggestion made at Geneva?
I am not quite clear as to whether or not the hon. Member is referring to the proposed invitation. If so, I have not the least doubt that many States will accept. If he is on the question of the proposed tariff truce, we must await the deliberations of the conference.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say when the conference is likely to take place?
Towards the end of January, or round about that time, according to present arrangements.
Will the right hon. Gentleman give an undertaking that he will not commit this country to any definite line of action before this House has been consulted?
I cannot give any undertaking of that kind, but I can assure the House that the whole object of our efforts in this Conference is to be of definite assistance to British industry and commerce.
I must put a definite question then. If we are not to have an undertaking, that we shall be consulted in this House, before this country is committed—
What about your rise in the price of tea?
to a very definite and important course of action, can the right hon. Gentleman give an undertaking that there will be no commitment at the forthcoming Conference before this House reassembles?
On that point, there will be discussions and, I imagine, afterwards, inquiries as to whether the way can be prepared for a draft Convention. Of course, that must occupy a certain time, and I imagine that, apart from any undertaking that I might give, and I propose to give none, in the ordinary course, the subject would, in fact, be discussed one way or another, probably on several occasions, before we finally put our signatures to anything.
Were the Dominions approached before the League of Nations?
I should be grateful if my hon. and gallant Friend would put that question on the Paper.
Will the right hon. Gentleman at the Conference do his utmost to commit this country definitely to a policy of Free Trade?
Motor Car Industry
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the fact that a million American motor-cars may be dumped on the European market next spring owing to the financial depression in the United States, and that a conference is to be held in Brussels on 10th December to try and establish a quota system for the import of American cars into the various European countries, he will take steps to be represented in this conference, seeing that such measures do not violate the most-favoured-nation clauses and will prevent many thousands who are employed in the motor industry in this country from being thrown out of work?
I assume that the conference at Brussels, to which the hon. and gallant Member refers, is the regular meeting of the conference of various associations representing the motor manufacturers in various European countries. I am informed that British motor manufacturers will be represented there, and no question of participation by His Majesty's Government arises.
In view of the fact that other countries have already realised this danger, is the right hon. Gentleman not going to take some steps to prevent it happening in this country, even the commonplace step of setting up a committee to go into the matter?
I am somewhat doubtful at the moment as to whether the dumping of motor cars on this scale would in fact take place. I can only say to the House that I have the matter fully before me, and, within the fiscal policy of the Government, any representations we can make will be made.
Would the right hon. Gentleman say whether it is within the fiscal policy of the Government to use the anti-dumping legislation, which still exists under the Safeguarding of Industries Act, to prevent this market from being flooded with dumped goods?
That question, and many others, really raises the problem of a duty of some kind. The Government have made it perfectly clear that they are not prepared to support protective duties of any character.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the suggestion which I have made, that other countries are adopting a quota, does not affect the matter of Protection or Free Trade, but will prevent the import of these goods into this country?
May I ask whether this country is going to be the dumping ground for this American industry to the detriment of our own working classes?
If American motor car manufacturers choose to give a million people a motor car each, has my right hon. Friend any objection?
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, with a view to assisting the British motor car industry and reducing unemployment, he can now reconsider the present attitude of the Government and make a statement as to the Government's intentions with regard to the existing import duties?
I regret that I cannot add anything to the answer which I gave to a similar question asked by the right hon. Member on the 18th November.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, with a view to increasing employment in the British motor car industry, he has had under consideration the adverse effect of the existing form of taxation on the production of cars with high horse-power?
This and all other relevant matters will receive due consideration, but I cannot say what the result of that consideration will be.
Economic Missions
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the success of the recent economic mission to South America, it is proposed to send similar missions to other parts of the world?
The question of sending economic missions to other parts of the world in due course is under consideration, but I am unable to make any statement at present.
May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman does not feel that he will have the general support of the House in continuing this excellent policy initiated by the late Government?
Fortunately, this is not a party matter. At the moment the question of a delegation to different parts of the Empire and to other countries is under consideration. What I cannot do this afternoon is to anticipate any decision which may be reached.
German Imports (Certificates)
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will draw the attention of the German Government to Article XII ( d ) of the Treaty of Commerce between the United Kingdom and Germany, ratified on the 8th September, 1925; and if he will request the German Government to desist from allowing their import licences for the import of cereals to be treated as negotiable instruments to the detriment of the interests of British agriculture and in direct contravention of that article?
The hon. Member is under a misapprehension. Article XII of the Anglo-German Treaty deals solely with licences issued in respect of goods the import or export of which is prohibited or restricted. Neither the import of cereals into Germany nor their export is prohibited, and the import certificates to which the hon. Member refers are not, and have nothing in common with, the licences referred to in Article XII.
May I ask whether there is any prohibition or restriction in the trade in Great Britain and in Germany?
The hon. Member is really raising a wider issue. I shall be glad to have notice of the question. On the question which he has put to me, my information is that these licences are really revenue certificates.
Imported Potatoes
asked the President of the Board of Trade what have been the imports of potatoes into this country during each month since October, 1928, and the proportion for which each exporting country is responsible?
I am sending the hon. Member a statement showing the particulars asked for.
While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for preparing figures, may I ask whether, when opportunity offers, he will confer with his right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture and find out whether there is any possibility having regard to the disastrous condition of this industry at the present time, of anything being done to prevent a similar blow to the industry again.
Certainly, if the hon. Member desires, I will promise to consult my right hon. Friend again on this subject.
But is it not the case that it is difficult to get anything out of the Minister of Agriculture?
I should not subscribe to that view for a single moment.
Hat Industry (Foreign Competition)
asked the President of the Board of Trade if his attention has been called to the unemployment in the hat industry of Lancashire and Cheshire; if he is aware that large importations of Italian and Foreign goods are coming into this country in competition made under conditions inferior to those allowed by the trade unions of this country; and what steps he intends to take to deal with this situation?
I would refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave to a previous question which he addressed to me on the 26th November.
The right hon. Gentleman, in his reply, has not dealt with the last part of my question, as to what steps he intends to take to deal with the situation?
The previous reply gave my hon. Friend some information, but, again, quite plainly, he is on the question of a protective duty, on which subject I have already given a reply.
May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman is not aware that my question does not refer at all to a protective duty. I ask what steps he proposes to take?
Does it matter very much what hats Members of the Opposition talk through?
Australia (Tariffs)
asked the President of the Board of Trade if his attention has been drawn to the proposed revision of the Australian tariffs; if he has considered their effect on hosiery and other industries; and if he has sent any communication to the Commonwealth Government in this regard?
asked the President of the Board of Trade if his attention has been drawn to proposed alterations in the Australian tariffs and their effect on British industry; and if he is taking any action in the matter?
Certain particulars respecting the changes in the Australian tariff, which took effect on 22nd November, were published last week in the Board of Trade Journal. Further information has since been received, and I hope to publish a statement of the principal changes, with a comparison between the old and new rates, in the same Journal next Thursday. The question whether any communication should be addressed to the Commonwealth Government on the subject is under consideration.
Will the right hon. Gentleman enter into con- sultation with the Commonwealth Government with a view to finding out (1) if it is possible to set up a committee of business men to examine the whole question of these tariffs, and (2) if he will endeavour to find a means of meeting the aims of the Australian Government without killing industries in this country?
I will certainly bear those points in mind in my discussions with the Secretary of State for the Dominions.
Will the right hon. Gentleman make representation with regard to the hosiery trade which seems to have been singled out for specially severe treatment, and make representations in order to see what can be done?
I think there are several questions on this subject, but in discussions of this kind, plainly, every industry affected must be taken into account.
Is it not a fact that the Government's position as regards Imperial Preference has caused these duties to be imposed?
Imported Bricks
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the fact that the importation of cheap foreign bricks is adversely affecting the brick-making industry in this country, he will consider the desirability of a tax on foreign bricks, or, alternatively, the introduction of Regulations which will make it obligatory for all foreign bricks to be marked with the name of the country of origin in order to safeguard the interests of British brick-makers and enable the people of this country to know when they are not getting British bricks?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. With regard to the second part, the Standing Committee under the Merchandise Marks Act, 1926, have already under consideration an application for an Order in Council under, the Act to require imported bricks to bear an indication of origin.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the shortage in the demand for British bricks is now such that many brickyards are manufacturing for stock, and that the result will be unemployment during the winter months?
I am afraid that is a very debatable point in this connection, because the figures before me indicate that the home manufacture of bricks is about 5,000,000,000 and that the number of bricks imported is only about 250,000,000.
Is it not the fact that a royalty is paid on home-manufactured bricks to-day?
Will the right hon. Gentleman take care that nothing is done to increase the price of bricks and give us an opportunity to hold up the brickyards for a time until they bring down the prices?
My hon. Friend the Member for St. Helens (Mr. Sexton) should give notice of his question. With reference to the other supplementary question, that is decidedly one of the important considerations which we must bear in mind. Anything which raises the price of this commodity increases the whole cost of building.
Is it not a fact that the shortage in the demand for English bricks is due to the high prices charged by the brick rings?
Is it not a fact that there is considerable room for improvement in the methods of manufacturing bricks employed in certain brickyards in this country?
In view of the general expression concerning the question of Protection from my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade, may I ask if it is the intention of the Government at the earliest possible moment to abolish the McKenna Duties?
Sweated Goods (Importation)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether His Majesty's Government are preparing any steps calculated to prohibit the importation into this country of goods manufactured by sweated labour?
I would refer the hon. Member to the reply the Parliamentary Secretary gave to the hon. Member for Penrith and Cockermouth (Mr. Dixey) on 27th November.
Do the Government adhere to the policy enunciated by the Prime Minister at Scarborough, or the policy enunciated a few days later by the Chancellor of the Exchequer; or have they an altogether new policy?
Government Departments
Ex-Enemy Debts Department
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will consider the desirability of referring all the transactions of the Enemy Debts Department to a Select Committee of this House?
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to a recent prosecution under the Prevention of Corruption Acts showing serious lack of control in the clearing office in the Ex-enemy Debts Department of the Board of Trade; whether he will set up a committee of the House of Commons to examine the whole organisation and administration of this Department; and, if not, what steps he proposes to take?
It would be improper for me in any way to anticipate the result of the proceedings referred to by the hon. Member for Newcastle North (Sir N. Grattan-Doyle). As I informed my hon. Friend the Member for Rochdale (Mr. Kelly) on the 13th November, no grounds have been disclosed which call for further inquiry, but if the hon. Members have definite and specific information which in their opinion renders further investigation necessary, I suggest that they should adopt the usual course of communicating it to me in order that it may be considered.
May I ask whether the result of the investigation which took place during last year into the affairs of this Department is available to Members of the House, and whether there is not sufficient evidence in that investigation to warrant action of the kind suggested being taken?
If my hon. Friend has in mind the report of the departmental committee, that cannot under any conditions be available for publication. I would suggest to hon. Members who have specific information which requires investigation that they should give me notice, and I will have investigations made.
In point of fact, has not the administration of this Department been carried on efficiently?
I should not like to pronounce one way or the other. No doubt the statement of the hon. Member is true.
In view of the facts already disclosed, will the right hon. Gentleman consider the closing down of this Department?
I should not like to reply to that point this afternoon. The House is perfectly familiar with the circumstances of this Department, but, as to the conclusion of its work, I should not like to make a statement to-day.
Statistical Departments
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will consider expanding and reorganising the Government Statistical Departments on the lines of that section of the American Ministry of Commerce which collects statistical information, showing probable future demands for goods, and which supplies this to manufacturers and producers concerned with a view to preventing gluts and shortages?
I am always willing to consider suggestions for increasing the value of official statistics to industry. I would, however, remind my hon. and gallant Friend that the whole field of official economic statistics in this country was recently reviewed by the Committee on Industry and Trade, who made certain definite recommendations on the subject in their Final Report. Action has already been taken with a view to carrying out some of those recommendations, and the remainder are receiving sympathetic and active consideration.
Do I understand that my right hon. Friend is familiar with the very extensive organisation which exists for this purpose in America, and the way in which it works?
I assume that my hon. and gallant Friend refers to business forecasts and statistics designed to that end. That is part of the material which I had in mind and which is covered by the last part of the question.
Will this proposal prevent gluts arising out of the dumping of goods into this country?
I do not think, in reply to the hon. Member for Farnham (Mr. A. M. Samuel), that the preparation of statistics one way or the other would prevent gluts or shortages; but I think he will agree that, in so far as they are thoroughly prepared and on sound lines, statistics may do a great deal to remove those violent fluctuations from which industry suffers.
Officers in Jersey (Income Tax)
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that the Royal Charter granted to Jersey in June, 1562, provided immunity from taxation to the inhabitants of Jersey, and that persons resident in Jersey who are employed by the Crown are being charged to British Income Tax in respect of their official salaries; and whether, in these circumstances, he will state what action he proposes to take?
My hon. Friend is, I think, under a misapprehension. Under the provisions of the Income Tax Acts emoluments of any officer of the Crown paid from British funds are assessable be British Income Tax, whether the duties of the office are performed within the United Kingdom or elsewhere. This liability is not affected by the Charter to which my hon. Friend refers.
Clerical Classes (Examinations)
asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether, in connection with clerical classes competitive examinations, he will state the reason for the extension of the successful list from the 200th candidate to the 500th candidate, as announced by him?
The successful list for the last Clerical Class Competition has been extended in order to meet the urgent staff requirements of the various Departments of State.
Is it not a fact that some of the P-class men are blocked in regard be the clerical class, and will he consider the possibility of establishing some of these P-class men before putting on the new entrants?
The fact is that this list does not interfere with the rights of any temporary or P-class men.
May I press the hon. Gentleman on this matter? Will he inquire into the suggestion which I have made, that these P-class men are blocked in regard to this clerical class, and will he consider the point that I have made, in view of the extraordinary amount of service that these P-class men have given to the State?
Will the hon. Gentleman also take into consideration the claims of the men in the limited competitions already in the Civil Service?
All these points will be taken into consideration.
Conscientious Objectors
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he will amend Treasury Circular E, of 10th September last, so as to prevent any conscientious objector from being reinstated or appointed to any post in the Civil Service whilst ex-service men are unemployed?
No, Sir. The Government's object was to remove the embargo imposed in the War period on the candidature of conscientious objectors for posts in the Civil Service. Subject to this the position of the ex-service candidate is not affected by the Circular.
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether any conscientious objectors have been promoted, since the Treasury Circular of 10th September last, over the heads of civil servants who served in the Forces during the War; and, if so, how many and in what Departments?
I have no information on the point and it could only be obtained by circularising the Departments. If notwithstanding the hon. Member attaches importance to the matter, I will have inquiry made.
May I ask if the hon. Gentleman will have inquiries made, as great importance is attached to this matter?
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is great feeling among ex-Service men?
Travelling Allowance (Late Parliamentary Duty)
asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether Civil Service officials, required by their duties to remain in attendance in the official gallery of the House after the hours at which ordinary means of transport are available to take them to their homes, pay for taximeter cabs out of their own pockets or are allowed to claim the fares from their Departments?
It is within the discretion of the Department concerned to refund fares reasonably incurred in the circumstances described.
Will the hon. Gentleman consider whether the same facilities and the same provisions could be given to Members of this House who do not own cars and who, when kept at late sittings, are unable to get home?
That does not arise out of the question.
Does not the hon. Gentleman think that it would be a shameful thing for Members with at least £8 ft week to supplement their own allowances while rejecting the claims of much poorer sections of the community?
Bread and Wheat (Prices)
asked the President of the Board of Trade what was the average price per quarter of British wheat and the price of the four pound loaf in London in July, 1914, and the average price of British wheat and the four pound loaf in London today?
The average retail price of the four pound loaf in London, as compiled by the Ministry of Labour, was 5½d. in July, 1914, and 8½d. at 1st November, 1929. According to the statutory returns received by the Ministry of Agriculture, the average price per quarter of British wheat in London was 34s. 11d. in July, 1914, and 42s. 2d. in the week ended 16th November, 1929.
Since bread is manufactured from two raw materials. flour and water, and since water has not increased in price and wheat has increased in price less than 20 per cent., how is it that the price of bread has increased by 50 per cent.?
My hon. Friend's question rests to some extent upon misapprehension. My information is that the proportion of British wheat in the London loaf is small compared with the proportion of foreign wheat. The hon. Member's supplementary question is very much nearer the truth.
Is it not a fact that the Yeoman variety of British wheat will manufacture—
That question does not arise.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say who regulates the selling price of bread in London?
It is subject to the review of the Food Council. I would like my hon. Friend to put down a question if he requires further information.
Reparations and Inter-Allied Debts
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether there is any money still due to the Government on account of the purchase of reparation vessels; and will he give particulars of the amount owing and the names of the companies owing this money?
The total sum due to the Government on account of the purchase of reparation vessels is £360,000, excluding interest. The number of firms concerned is two. It is not usual to publish the names of firms in cases of this kind.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether all the past repayments of capital have been made?
I understand, without committing myself finally, that that is the position.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what amount it is anticipated that the Exchequer will receive on account of reparation and Allied War debt payments during the year 1933–34?
During the year in question His Majesty's Government should receive £17,868,000 from Allied War debts and £19,912,000 from German reparations under the Young Plan, making up together the sum of £37,780,000 due by us to the United States in that year. In addition, the Exchequer should receive approximately £l½ millions cash under the agreement reached at The Hague.
Companies Act
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will ask the suitable authorities to devise some process of registration and issue of share certificates under the Companies Act which will make it impossible for a company to issue fraudulent shares bearing identical numbers, thereby duplicating and even triplicating the share issue?
I shall be happy to consider any practicable proposals which would make impossible the fraudulent practice referred to, but as the hon. and gallant Member is doubtless aware it is already a felony punishable with penal servitude under the Forgery Act, 1913.
Are we to understand that the Board of Trade is opposed to any measure designed to do away with the numbering of shares?
I cannot in reply to a supplementary question commit myself in any way this afternoon, but I can give this assurance, that we shall take the firmest steps possible to see that there is no method of facilitating fraud.
British Army
Educational Corps
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware of the lack of opportunities of promotion in the Army Educational Corps; and whether any reorganisation of the corps is contemplated so as to give better chances of promotion to those who have rendered good service?
It is proposed to reorganise the Army Educational Corps. When this organisation is completed a system of time promotion for Lieutenants to Captain will be introduced.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say when this change is going to be made?
No. There are certain difficulties and details, and the principle, that have to be settled, and I do not think I shall be able yet to state anything as to the date.
Is this proposed reorganisation intended to include the granting of corps pay to officers of the Army Educational Corps?
I think my answer to the Noble Lord's Supplementary Question, will answer that question also.
Decorations and Medals (Sale)
asked the Secretary of State for War if his attention has been called to the sale of a Victoria Cross in a London sales room; and whether he will consider the introduction of a short Bill making the sale of Victoria Crosses illegal?
I am doubtful whether legislation on the lines suggested would be desirable. The Army Act already provides against the sale of decorations or medals without lawful authority to persons not authorised to use them, but the War Department has been advised that this does not prevent bonâ fide sales to collectors and similar purchasers.
In view of the obvious distress that must exist in any family before this coveted decoration is sold, will the right hon. Gentleman consider the attitude of the Government, or the right of the Government, to search out these homes and ensure that their need is recognised, and that £75—
Speech!
That question goes far beyond the question on the Paper, and I would prefer to see it in definite form.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that any man who has earned a decoration of this kind is entitled to do what he likes with it?
Contracts (Fair Wages Clause)
asked the Secretary of State for War if he is aware that recently War Office contracts for cloth have been placed with two firms in the Dewsbury and Batley area of the West Riding of Yorkshire who do not pay trades union rates of pay; and what steps he proposes to take in the matter so as to secure the observance of the Fair Wages Clause?
I am not aware that any firms holding War Office contracts for cloth are not complying with the requirements of the Fair Wages Clause in Government contracts, but if the hon. Member will furnish me with the names of the two firms to which he refers, together with any information that he may have to show that less than the current rate of wages is being paid, I will have the matter inquired into.
I shall be glad to forward privately to the hon. Gentleman the information which he desires.
Colchester Carnival (Tattoo)
asked the Secretary of State for War whether instructions have been given by the War Office to the military authorities in Colchester which will prevent them from organising a tattoo in conjunction with the annual Colchester Carnival next year; and, if so, whether he will take steps to vary such instructions in order that the military hospitals as well as the various civilian hospitals may not be deprived of the sums which are raised by this annual display?
It is not proposed to hold a military tattoo at Colchester in 1930. But the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Eastern Command, has arranged for two military bands to play during the carnival and also for a musical ride by a cavalry regiment and a musical drive by the Royal Artillery. I understand that the organisers of the carnival have stated that they are entirely satisfied with these arrangements.
Royal Engineers (Sapper Salter)
asked the Secretary of State for War whether his Department has any information concerning Sapper Salter, No. 1853904, 56th Company, Royal Engineers, who disappeared at Shanghai on 15th November, 1928; whether he has any reason for believing that this soldier is still alive; and whether he is aware that Sapper Salter's wife and children are without resources, as the wife is unable to obtain any allowance either as wife or widow?
Sapper Salter was one of a shore party at Hong Kong from the transport "Somersetshire" en route from Shanghai to England. He obtained permission to leave the rest of the party on private affairs and did not report when the party re-embarked. A court of inquiry found that he was illegally absent from 15th November, 1928, and no further information has been received by the War Office regarding his whereabouts. As regards the last part of the question, I regret that Mrs. Salter is not eligible for the grant of any pension from Army funds, but I understand that the Royal Patriotic Fund Corporation are assisting her.
How can this man be illegally absent if he is dead?
Ranker Officers (Retired Pay)
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether, for the financial convenience of ranker officers at Christmas-time, he can see his way to authorise the drawing of their retired pay on 21st December instead of the 31st December?
I regret that I am unable to adopt the hon. Member's suggestion.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the suggestion would be a very easy one to comply with and would make a very great deal of difference to the comfort of those who are not very well off?
It is not an easy matter to deal with.
Scotland
Housing, Glasgow
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland the number of subsidised houses in Glasgow which are partly sub-let or in which lodgers are boarded?
My right hon. Friend regrets that the information asked for is not available, but he is informed that, so far as houses erected and let by the Corporation are concerned, a prohibition is included in the missives of let against either subletting or keeping lodgers.
Has the hon. Gentleman looked up the voters' roll to see if that regulation is being adhered to by the Corporation of Glasgow?
The voters' roll does not in any way answer the question put by the hon. Member.
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many houses are being built in Glasgow under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Act?
My right hon. Friend is informed that the Corporation of Glasgow have granted advances under the Small Dwellings Acquisition (Scotland) Acts amounting to £355,875, in respect of the construction and purchase of 665 houses.
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland the number of subsidised houses built in Glasgow during the last 10 years; and how many are occupied by owners of motor care?
My right hon. Friend is informed that the number of subsidised houses built in Glasgow during the last 10 years is 24,746. The information asked for in the latter part of the question is not available.
May I ask the hon. Gentleman if this is not available on the register of motor cars, as the names of those who keep motor cars are on the register?
Has the hon. Gentleman any information as to the number of owners of motor cars who own those cars as a result of having been building contractors for subsidy houses?
Fishing Harbours (Debt Remission)
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he is now in a position to make a statement regarding the debts of the Scottish fishing harbours; and what, if any, remissions of debt the Government proposes to make?
I would refer the hon. Member to the White Paper issued to-day.
Will the White Paper be available for Members to-day? I have inquired at the Office, and I am told that it is not yet presented.
The hon. Member is under a misapprehension, for the White Paper is now in the Vote Office.
Elementary Schools (Classes)
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland the average number of pupils in the classes of Scottish elementary schools, the number of classes containing 50 or more pupils, and the reduction, if any, in the size of classes since 1st July?
The particulars desired by the hon. Member are not available and could not be obtained without disproportionate expenditure of time and labour. I would, however, refer to the answer of 26th November, given by my right hon. Friend to the hon. Member for Berwick and Haddington (Mr. Sinkinson). I may add that the number of classes having more than 50 children habitually under the charge of one teacher has decreased from 143 in February last to 98 in October—the date of the latest return.
Fishing Fleet Disaster
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if His Majesty's Government has yet decided whether they will give any help to Scottish fishermen who have suffered in the recent disaster to replace their lost gear?
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he has received a copy of the resolution passed at a recent meeting in Aberdeen by the provosts, or their representatives, of the various burghs in the north-east of Scot- land fishing area, expressing the view that the public response to the appeal, launched for the assistance of Scottish fishermen who lost their gear in the recent storm off East Anglia, must be inadequate to meet the urgent needs of the fishermen; and to what extent and in what manner the Government is prepared to supplement this public appeal?
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether the Government contemplates making a contribution to the Fishermen's Relief Fund?
In reply to these questions, I would refer the hon. Members to the replies which I gave on this subject as recently as last Tuesday.
Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us when we may expect to have a decision on this question, which is of so vital and immediate importance to the fishermen of Scotland?
I thought we had a discussion on that question. With regard to the question of distress, whenever a case is shown, it will be my legal responsibility and duty to deal with that distress.
Are we to understand that it is the right hon. Gentleman's final decision that, as the facts stand at present, the Government will not subscribe pound for pound to this fund?
Answer!
Are we to understand from the silence of the right hon. Gentleman that he proposes to treat the Scottish fishermen worse than the late Government did the miners, with whom he is connected?
Bird Life (Ailsa Craig)
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether his attention has been called to the danger to bird life on the island of Ailsa Craig by the plague of rats; and whether he can take any steps to assist in combating it in the interests of the preservation of wild life?
I have received an application from the county council of Ayrshire for authority to make a grant of £10 in aid of a campaign by the Scottish Society for the Protection of Wild Birds for the destruction of rats on Ailsa Craig. I have felt justified, as on previous occasions when such applications have been made, in approving of this payment.
Is the £10 going to be paid or not? I could not hear.
Do I understand that the right hon. Gentleman is going to give £10 for the protection of bird life and nothing for the fishermen?
As the hon. Member knows, I have already made arrangements for coming to the assistance of the fishermen in another way.
May I ask what the arrangements are?
Rents, Lanarkshire
ON asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether, seeing that the slum-clearance-scheme houses in the Upper Ward of Lanarkshire are rented at £16 as against £12 for the same type of house in the Middle Ward of Lanarkshire, and that working-class house rents generally are lower in the Upper Ward than in the Middle Ward, he can state the reason for the higher rents of slum-clearance-scheme houses in the Upper Ward?
The rent of £16 charged by the local authority of the Upper Ward district of Lanarkshire for the two-apartment houses in their re-housing scheme was fixed by the local authority with whom the initiative in the matter rests. If the local authority desire to reduce the rent, it is open to them to make application to the Department of Health for Scotland for their approval to any reduction proposed.
I would like to ask whether the Upper Ward has approached the Scottish Office, or whether the Scottish Office as approached the Upper Ward, in order to have the rent reduced?
I have no information upon that point, but, if the hon. Member desires it, I will try to get it.
Committees (Experts)
asked the Prime Minister if he will state the names of the experts assisting the specially appointed committees dealing with certain problems pending the appointment of an economic general staff?
As the hon. Member knows, inquiries have already been instituted into the state of the iron and steel industry, the cotton industry, and the fishing industry. The names of the experts who have consented to serve on those inquiries were announced in the Press at the time of their appointment.
Can the right hon. Gentleman tell the House when he thinks any report will be available from the inquiry into the iron and steel industry?
That question had better be put down.
May I ask whether it is the intention of the Government at any time to set up a permanent economic general staff?
That does not arise out of this question, but I have answered it about half-a-dozen times.
Are we to understand that the members of the Fishing Committee are experts?
Yes.
National Opera
asked the Prime Minister whether, having regard to the fact that £100,000 has been collected from 50,000 subscribers by the Imperial League of Opera, it is the intention of the Government to assist the league in any way towards the establishment of a national opera?
I sympathise warmly with the aims of the Imperial League of Opera, and I hope there will be a large increase in the number of subscribers, so that the league may be in a strong financial position. But I fear I cannot promise a grant from public funds, if that is what the hon. Member has in mind.
Later, —
On a point of Order. On Question No. 46, I rose in my place as soon as I could after the reply of the Prime Minister, but you did not call me, Mr. Speaker. May we go back to No. 46 now?
No, I am afraid we cannot go back.
Ministers' Salaries (Committee)
asked the Prime Minister whether the terms of reference to the Committee on Salaries to Ministers will be so enlarged as to enable them to consider the questions of adopting the Canadian practice of making the leadership of the Opposition a salaried office and of introducing into the salaries of Members of Parliament the system of family allowances?
As the House knows, I agreed to the appointment of this Committee with reluctance and in the belief that the subject of the salaries paid to certain Ministers required special treatment. If there is any general desire to raise other though perhaps cognate questions, that had better be done upon separate representations.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the hon. Member who asked the question would be better employed in urging the Government to give adequate maintenance allowances to the unemployed who were promised them?
Royal Dockyards (Rating)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the proposals for the Royal Naval Dockyards undertaking private work, he will now allow the dockyards to be rated in the same way as private undertakings; whether he will insist that in any tenders made full allowance shall be made for equivalence of Income Tax, such as private undertakings have to make; and whether he will first cause an investigation to be made into the financial failure of the Woolwich attempt at making and marketing locomotives?
In considering any proposal for the undertaking of private work by the Royal Naval Dockyards, all relevant financial considerations will, of course, be taken into account; but I am not prepared to modify the present system of assessing the contribution in lieu of rates on Government property. Income Tax is only chargeable on the profits actually earned by a contractor, and is not a factor to be taken into account in the calculation of working costs. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative. The facts in the case referred to are already sufficiently well known, and the circumstances were wholly exceptional.
Can the right hon. Gentleman give any adequate reason why the Government should not pay rates on their property on exactly the same basis as private individuals?
It is a custom, and I suppose that there is very good reason for it, but we cannot argue that matter in the course of Questions.
War Loan
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what proportion of War Loan Five per Cent. 1929–47 is still held by the original applicants?
I fear it would be impossible to obtain this information except very partially and with an altogether disproportionate amount of labour.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what proportion of the original applications for War Loan Five per Cent., 1929–47, was represented by the proceeds of the compulsory sale of American securities?
No part of the original subscriptions to the Five per Cent. War Loan can have represented the proceeds of the compulsory sale of American securities since the first requisitioning order was not made until after the list of applications for the loan had closed. As regards the earlier scheme of December, 1915, the surrender of American securities was voluntary and the holders had the option to receive cash or Five per Cent. Exchequer Bonds, 1920, which were available for subscrip- tions at par to any future long-dated War Loan. Some of these Exchequer Bonds were converted later to Five per Cent. War Loan, but I am afraid there are no statistics available.
As the Chancellor of the Exchequer says that these voluntary holders were morally compelled to sell their War Loans, may I ask, in view of the fact that the American securities have risen since, and in view of the fact that War Loans are still below their issue price, whether the moral rights of the holders are not very strong?
The hon. Member and the House know that it is always a very difficult matter to translate moral rights into terms of cash. These transactions are nearly 15 years old, and I am afraid that I cannot add anything to the information which I have given.
Bank of England (Dividends)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will consider proposals for limiting the dividends to the shareholders of the Bank of England at their present figure and allowing the surplus to be retained for the purpose of either strengthening the Bank or being paid into the Treasury, and for providing expressly in the inner management of the Bank for co-operation with the Treasury?
These and other suggestions will no doubt be brought before the Committee on Finance and Industry and considered by them.
Will it come within the terms of reference?
Will the Treasury publish the evidence which they give to this Commission, so that the House and the public may know exactly what are the relations and the financial arrangements between the Treasury and the Bank?
I cannot see that that has the slightest relation to this question.
Provincial Libraries (British Museum Catalogue)
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, with regard to the communication sent by the chief librarians of the Cities of Birmingham, Bristol, Cardiff, Glasgow, Leeds, Liverpool, Manchester, and Newcastle-on-Tyne to the Lords of the Treasury with reference to the proposed catalogue of the British Museum, whether he will be prepared to consider the making of a grant to the trustees of the British Museum in order that the catalogue may be deposited free of charge in the principal libraries of the provinces?
The cost of the proposed catalogue will be very large, and publication cannot be undertaken unless the catalogue is self-supporting. The price has been fixed by the museum at a figure which will only cover the expenditure if a large measure of support is obtained from public libraries in all parts of the world. Under these circumstances I regret that I cannot see my way to accede to my hon. Friend's suggestion.
What will be the cost per copy?
Based on the sale of a considerable number of copies, it will be in the neighbourhood of £500 per copy.
Will the hon. Gentleman give consideration to the case of the poorest cities and towns, and make some concession?
Perpetual Pensions
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury the total amount paid to descendants of naval and military officers, including admirals, generals, and others, in commutation of perpetual pensions during the last 20 years?
The perpetual pensions commuted during the last 20 years were those to the heirs of the Duke of Schomberg and Lord Rodney. The capital sums paid totalled £58,060.
Business of the House
May I ask the Leader of the House whether, in the event of his Motion being passed, he expects to stay up late to-night?
I am afraid that I do. I should like to get somewhere towards the end of Clause 5. There is still a little contentious matter left on Clause 2. Clause 3 is non-contentious; when I last looked at the Order Paper, which was last night, there were no Amendments down. Clause 4 is contentious, but in one large and general respect, and once that point is settled I think it will not be contentious. Clause 5 is the natural corollary for the finishing of Clause 4. That is why, in my own mind, I fixed on Clause 5. We propose to start the business to-day with the Indemnity Bill.
Has the right hon. Gentleman any power or authority to order the House to meet three or four hours earlier every day instead of sitting so late every night?
In answer to what the Prime Minister says, I should like to remind him of this: It is very hard to ask the House to indulge in these late sittings night after night. We were perfectly prepared to help the Government to get to the end of Clause 3 last night. We did not get so far on account of the opposition of his own party, which he was unable to keep in order. The House, as a whole, is made to suffer for that. The proceedings were adjourned before we got to Clause 3. To-day, we are going to be delayed by the prior introduction of legislation which, again, is entirely the fault of the Government.
Motion made, and Question put,
"That the Proceedings on Government Business be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House.")—[ The Prime Minister. ]
The House divided: Ayes, 274; Noes, 159.
Brothers, M. Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Raynes, W. R. Brown, Ernest (Leith) Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. Richards, R. Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Jowitt, Rt. Hon. Sir W. A. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Buchanan, G. Kedward, R. M. (Kent, Ashford) Riley, Ben (Dewsbury) Burgess, F. G. Kelly, W. T. Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees) Burgin, Dr. E. L. Kennedy, Thomas Ritson, J. Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland) Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel (Norfolk, N.) Kinley, J. Romeril, H. G. Cameron, A. G. Kirkwood, D. Rosbotham, D. S. T. Cape, Thomas Knight, Holford Rowson, Guy Carter W. (St Pancras, S. W.) Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton) Salter, Dr. Alfred Charleton, H. C. Lang, Gordon Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen) Chater, Daniel Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George Samuel, H. W. (Swansea, West) Church, Major A. G. Law, Albert (Bolton) Sanders, W. S. Clarke, J. S. Law, A. (Rosendale) Sandham, E. Cluse, W. S. Lawrence, Susan Sawyer, G. F. Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge) Scrymgeour, E. Compton, Joseph Lawson, John James Scurr, John Cove, William G. Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle) Sexton, James Daggar, George Leach, W. Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Dallas, George Lee, Frank (Derby, N. E.) Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern) Sherwood, G. H. Day, Harry Lees, J. Shield, George William Denman, Hon. R. D. Lewis, T. (Southampton) Shillaker, J. F. Devlin, Joseph Lindley, Fred W. Shinwell, E. Dickson, T. Lloyd, C. Ellis Simmons, C. J. Dudgeon, Major C. R. Longbottom, A. W. Simon. E. D. (Manch'ter, Withington) Dukes, C. Longden, F. Sinclair, Sir A. (Caithness) Duncan, Charles Lovat-Fraser, J. A. Sinkinson, George Ede, James Chuter Lowth, Thomas Sitch, Charles H. Edge, Sir William Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) Smith, Alfred (Sunderland) Edmunds, J. E. MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham) Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) Edwards, E. (Morpeth) McElwee, A. Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) Egan, W. H. McEntee, V. L. Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Elmley, Viscount Mackinder, W. Smith, Tom (Pontefract) England. Colonel A. McKinlay, A. Smith, W. R. (Norwich) Foot, Isaac MacLaren, Andrew Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip Forgan, Dr. Robert Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Snowden, Thomas (Accrington) Freeman, Peter MacNeill-Weir, L. Sorensen, R. Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Spero, Dr. G. E. Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.) Mander, Geoffrey le M. Stamford, Thomas W. Gibbins, Joseph Mansfield, W. Stephen, Campbell Gill, T. H. March, S. Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Glassey, A. E. Marcus, M. Strachey, E. J. St. Loe Gosling, Harry Marley, J. Strauss, G. R. Gossling, A. G. Mathers, George Sutton, J. E. Gould, F. Matters L. W. Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln) Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Maxton, James Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S. W.) Gray, Milner Messer, Fred Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby) Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne) Middleton, G. Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Millar, J. D. Thurtle, Ernest Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.) Mills, J. E. Tillett, Ben Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Milner, J. Tinker, John Joseph Groves, Thomas E. Morgan, Dr. H. B. Tout, W. J. Grundy, Thomas W. Morley, Ralph Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South) Turner, B. Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.) Vaughan, D. J. Hall, Capt. W. P. (Portsmouth, C.) Mort, D. L. Viant, S. P. Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn) Moses, J. J. H. Wallhead, Richard C. Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Zetland) Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent) Watkins, F. C. Harbord, A. Mosley, Sir Oswald (Smethwick) Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Hardie, George D. Muff, G. Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Hastings, Dr. Somerville Muggeridge, H. T. Wellock, Wilfred Haycock, A. W. Murnin, Hugh Welsh. James (Paisley) Hayday, Arthur Nathan, Major H. L. Welsh, James C. (Coatbridge) Hayes, John Henry Naylor, T. E. West, F. R. Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Noel Baker, P. J. Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) Oldfield, J. R. White, H. G Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston) Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood) Herriotts, J. Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley) Wilkinson, Ellen C. Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth) Owen, Major G. (Carnarvon) Williams, David (Swansea, East) Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Owen, H. F. (Hereford) Williams Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Hoffman, P. C. Palin, John Henry Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Hollins, A. Paling, Wilfrid Wilson, J. (Oldham) Hopkin, Daniel Palmer, E. T. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Hore-Belisha, Leslie Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Winterton, G. E.(Leicester, Loughb'gh) Horrabin, J. F. Perry, S. F. Wise, E. F. Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff) Hunter, Dr. Joseph Phillips, Dr. Marion Wright, W. (Rutherglen) Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R. Picton-Turbervill, Edith Young, R. S. (Islington, North) Isaacs, George Pole, Major D. G. John, William (Rhondda, West) Potts, John S. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Jones, F. Llewellyn-(Flint) Pybus, Percy John Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Quibell, D. J. K. Whiteley. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Ramsay, T. B. Wilson
NOES. Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles Falle, Sir Bertram G. Oman, Sir Charles William C. Albery, Irving James Ferguson, Sir John O'Neill, Sir H. Astor, Maj. Hon. John J. (Kent, Dover) Fermoy, Lord Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William Astor, Viscountess Fison, F. G. Clavering Peake, Capt. Osbert Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley) Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Power, Sir John Cecil Balfour, George (Hampstead) Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley) Pownall, Sir Assheton Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet) Glyn, Major R. G. C. Purbrick, R. Bellairs, Commander Carlyon Grace, John Ramsbotham, H. Berry, Sir George Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Rawson, Sir Cooper Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Remer, John R. Bird, Ernest Roy Gunston, Captain D. W. Ross, Major Ronald D. Boothby, R. J. G. Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Salmon, Major I. Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart Hamilton. Sir George (Ilford) Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart Boyce. H. L. Hartington, Marquess of Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D. Bracken, B. Harvey, Majors. E. (Devon, Totnes) Savery, S. S. Brass, Captain Sir William Haslam, Henry C. Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome Briscoe, Richard George Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down) Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Herbert, S.(York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by) Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Buckingham, Sir H. Hills. Major Rt. Hon. John Waller Smith-Carington, Neville W. Bullock, Captain Malcolm Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Smithers, Waldron Butler, R. A. Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Carver, Major W. H. Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. Southby, Commander A. R. J. Castle Stewart, Earl of Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Cautley, Sir Henry S. Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland) Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Hurd, Percy A. Stewart, W. J. (Belfast, South) Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.) Hurst, Sir Gerald B. Stuart, J. C. (Moray and Nairn) Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Iveagh, Countess of Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F. Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.) Knox, Sir Alfred Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton) Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston) Lamb, Sir J. Q. Tinne, J. A. Chapman, Sir S. Law, Sir Alfred (Derby, High Peak) Titchfield, Major the Marquess of Christie. J. A. Leighton, Major B. E. P. Todd, Capt. A. J. Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey Train, J. Cohen, Major J. Brunel Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th) Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Colfox, Major William Philip Long, Major Eric Turton, Robert Hugh Colman, N. C. D. Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon Colville, Major D. J. Macquisten, F. A. Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey) Cranbourne, Viscount Makins, Brigadier-General E. Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Margesson, Captain H. D. Wardlaw-Milne, J. S. Crookshank, Capt. H. C. Marjoribanks, E. C. Warrender, Sir Victor Croom-Johnson, R. P. Meller, R. J. Waterhouse, Captain Charles Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Wayland, Sir William A. Dalkeith, Earl of Mitchell-Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Wells, Sydney R. Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford) Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Davies, Dr. Vernon Moore, Sir Newton J. (Richmond) Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Duckworth, G. A. V. Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount Dugdale, Capt. T. L. Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury) Womersley, W. J. Eden, Captain Anthony Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester) Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley Edmondson, Major A. J. Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton Elliot, Major Walter E. Muirhead, A. J. Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) Nicholson, O. (Westminster) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Everard, W. Lindsay Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld) Major Sir George Hennessy and Sir Frederick Thomson.
Question of Privilege
I rise on a question of Privilege to bring to your notice the following paragraph in to-day's "Daily Mail":
"£2,000 a year.
"The post of Chairman of Committees is a Government nomination carrying a salary of £2,000 a year, and Mr. Robert Young (Socialist, Newton, Lancs.), who occupies it, is just now under considerable crossfire. It is understood that earlier to-day representations were made to him on behalf of the Government to exercise more authority in expediting the course of Debate to-day on the Bill, especially in the disposal of Amendments moved by the rebel Clydeside group."
I beg to ask you, Sir, whether you can and will make inquiries as to the substantial truth of this paragraph, and whether in your opinion it would be an unjust interference with the Privilege of Members, and a serious departure from the best traditions of this House, if party pressure of the kind indicated in this paragraph were exercised by the Chairman of Committees.
The right hon. Gentle-man has asked me to perform rather a hard duty, if I am to inquire into the substantial truth of a paragraph which appeared in yesterday's Press. With regard to the latter part of the question, I understand that what the right hon. Gentleman wishes to do it to raise this matter as a question of Privilege. I have considered it in the short time that has been at my disposal, since it was brought to my notice, and it does not appear to me to be definite enough to constitute a matter of Privilege.
Do you not consider it a very serious allegation that a charge of this kind should be made against the Government? In substance, the charge is that the Government have appointed a Chairman to a position carrying a salary of £2,000 a year; and that, having appointed the Chairman, they bring pressure to bear upon him in the exercise of his duty for the purpose of depriving Members of this House with whom they are in disagreement of the privileges which ought to be freely exercised by every Member of the House.
Surely, the question whether an allegation is serious or not depends upon the source from which it comes, and is every cock-and-bull story circulated by the "Daily Mail" going to be investigated by this House on the ground that it may be a breach of Privilege?
May I point out in this connection that this rumour about a breach of Privilege originated yesterday in consequence of the moving of the Closure after a very brief discussion?
We have to be very careful, in reference to questions of Privilege, to see that we have a definite charge to meet. To my mind, the paragraph to which the right hon. Gentleman has referred is so indefinite in its character that it would be impossible to take 'action in that respect.
I quite appreciate the circumstances, but I would like to ask this further question—whether it is in your power to request the people who make these serious charges against the impartiality of the Chairman of this House to give you any evidence which they possess in support of those allegations?
I should be very sorry to take those duties upon myself.
New Member Sworn
The Rt. Hon. Craigie Mason Aitchison, K.C., County of Ayr and Bute (Kilmarnock Division).
Prevention of Corruption
I beg to move,
The position is shortly this: In order to institute a prosecution for bribery at the present time, it is necessary to obtain, first of all, a fiat from the Attorney-General, so that there is, in effect, a double trial. The Attorney-General has sometimes at great cost and with great delay, to go into the whole thing, and then it is tried in the ordinary courts of law as well. The result is to make it much more difficult than need be to bring in these very difficult cases because, as hon. Members know, it is extremely difficult to get evidence of crimes of this kind. It may be said, Why was the Attorney-General's fiat ever introduced? The position is this: The Select Committee which considered the original Bill of Lord Russell of Killowen was unanimously of opinion that the fiat of the Law Officers would impede the working of the Act, and was unnecessary. The Standing Committee on Law of this House rejected it also, and it was put in simply and solely because of the redoubtable Lord Halsbury, who insisted in the House of Lords on it being put in, and the promoters of the Bill, with great reluctance, and in order to save the Measure, decided to accept it. But I should like to point out that taking the contrary view from Lord Halsbury, were Lord Russell of Killowen, Lord Alverstone, Lord James of Hereford, Lord Loreburn, Lord Strathclyde, Lord Davey, Sir J. Lawson Walton—all of whom had been a Law Officer of the Crown—Sir Edward Fry and Lord Phillimore, and others who were entirely opposed to this fiat of the Attorney-General being introduced, and it was only because of the short time and exigencies of the moment that it was put in at all.
It has been suggested that it was required in order to get protection against blackmail. If that be really so, we require it not only in this Act but in dozens of Acts, because there are many crimes where you might say blackmail may come in, but it is never found necessary to have the protection of the Attorney-General's fiat. In any case, the fiat cannot be any protection, and if the fiat is granted, this may weigh unduly, as I know it has, with the magistrates against the person who has been accused of a crime. When the matter has gone to the Attorney-General, sometimes there has been very great delay. I do not say that that is the case to-day, but, of course, we have an altogether exceptional Attorney-General who, probably, will not remain there for ever. But the great objection, as expressed by Sir Edward Fry, has been that ex parte statement to decide whether a prosecution shall or shall not take place.
As a matter of fact, since 1920 the average number of convictions in Great Britain and Ireland has been 30 per year, but the private prosecutions have averaged only about four, and, considering that bribery is rampant, it shows that the Act to a considerable extent has failed to do what was hoped of it. Considerations of trouble and expense do not weigh with local authorities. It is much easier for them to bring prosecu- tions, and it is not pleasant to find that of the cases nearly 43 per cent. were police cases, 39 per cent. public authorities' cases and only 18 per cent. were private cases, including those instituted by the Bribery and Secret Commissions Prevention League which watches the operations of this Act. In 1917 there were two Bills before the House, the Criminal Law Amendment Bill and the Venereal Diseases Bill, and it was suggested that the Attorney-General's fiat should be introduced in those cases. Mr. Hayes-Fisher, as he then was, opposed it on behalf of the Government, remarking:
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Mander, Lord Colum Crichton-Stuart, Lieut.-Colonel Sir George Dalrymple-White, Mr. Kelly, Sir Assheton Pownall, Mr. Shakespeare, and Mr. Strachey.
Prevention of Corruption Bill,
"to amend the Law relating to the prevention of corruption," presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Tuesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 89.]
Exportation of Horses
I beg to move:
Still the trade goes on. There is no doubt that when the Bill of 1914 was passed it was generally thought that by limiting the export of horses to those which were fit for work we should put an end to the export of horses for butchering. We found in fact that, although the horses were passed as being fit for work, they were purchased for the purpose of slaughter in the main, and the fact that they were to be slaughtered within a short time of their reaching the other side of the sea had a great deal of influence in the minds of veterinary surgeons who passed the horses. Anyone who knows anything at all of transport knows that there is unavoidably associated with the transport of animals, especially those for butchering, a great deal of suffering and privation. Especially is that so when it is a case of transportation across the sea. When the weather becomes bad before the ship starts, in very few cases, I am afraid, are those animals unloaded, although we are told that the shipping authorities say that they must not be taken away when there is the prospect of bad weather. In the last week or two we have seen reports in the newspapers of cattle that have been brought from Ireland being severely damaged in the course of transport. In a few cases they may be so severely damaged that they have to be destroyed on board the ship, but in the case of those that are not so severely damaged as to render that course necessary, the animals in their restricted quarters undoubtedly suffer a great deal.
We pride ourselves on being a most humane nation. From the humane point of view we should, as far as possible, put an end to the transport of animals across the seas for slaughter. Another reason for the Bill is this: This country has a very good record for the treatment of horses while at work. There are valuable societies in existence, and we have entirely changed the tone of those who work horses. Those who can recollect the instances of cruelty which used to be seen in the streets and on the farms 25 years ago know that we are living to-day in quite a different world in that respect. But unfortunately, as far as the Continent is concerned, and from what I have seen of it, that is far from being the case there. Horses may be regarded as of no value here for work, are sold for export. Some of them not fit for any work at all. These are slaughtered within a few miles of the port of debarkation. Others of them are taken away to be worked to death either on the roads, in the fields, or in the mines. It is not a thing that we should feel satisfied with in this country. The horse is a valuable companion and worker for man, and its intelligence is high. For it to be subjected to that treatment after it has served its master and country well, is a disgrace to us.
We propose in the Bill to put an end to the exportation of horses for butchery, by laying it down that no horse that is more than eight years of age, or that is of a value of less than £25, shall be exported. That would mean that only those horses which were reasonably fit to work for some little time might be exported, and that those which it was necessary to slaughter should be slaughtered on this side and their carcases exported.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Broad, Sir George Cockerill, Mr. Compton, Lord Fermoy, Mr. Haycock, Sir Robert Newman, Sir Basil Peto, Mr. Viant, and Mr. Mills.
Exportation of Horses Bill
"to amend the Law with respect to the exportation of horses," presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Monday, 16th December, and to be printed. [Bill 90.]
Safeguarding of Industries (Amendment)
I beg to move,
It is rather difficult to find out exactly what are the wages paid in the foreign countries from which these goods come, but there was recently published from the International Labour Bureau at Geneva a Schedule showing the wages which are paid in foreign countries in the mining industry, and I think it may be justifiable to quote the percentages as some guide to the general trend of wages in those countries. Taking 100 as the index figure for Great Britain, we find that in Germany the wages percentage is 77, in France 54, in Czechoslovakia 56, in Belgium 47, and in the whole of Poland 40. That shows conclusively, I think, that the wages in foreign countries are 60 per cent. to 25 per cent. lower than in this country. The Lord Privy Seal, speaking at one of the dinners that he has been so fond of attending in recent days, said that the remedy in this matter was to make our industry more efficient. There is not one manufacturer in this country who does not wish to see his industry made more efficient than it is now. The sole reason why any industry is not made more efficient is the great lack of capital, which makes it impossible for manufacturers to press forward. No investor in his senses would place capital at the disposal of an industry which is losing money because of the severe foreign competition with which it is faced.
Clause 1 of the Bill seeks to set up a permanent tribunal to deal with cases. To this tribunal any association of employers or employed, or both, may make application. The application will be made in writing and the matters which the tribunal will consider are the following: (1) Whether the wages paid in a foreign country are lower or the hours worked longer than those allowed by the trade unions of the United Kingdom. (2) Whether the imposition of a duty on the imported goods would cause more unemployment in some other trade than it would create. (3) What is the state of unemployment in those industries regarding which the application is made? When the application has been received and notice to that effect has been given, any organisation opposing the application must send in its case in writing within 30 days of the notice having been given. The tribunals will then—
On a point of Order. Is it in order, under the Ten Minutes Rule, to introduce a Bill which has for its purpose an extension of the area in which subjects can be taxed? Is not such a Bill excluded from the Ten Minutes Rule?
I certainly had not looked upon it from that point of view. I do not know any reason why the Bill should not be brought in under the Ten Minutes Rule. It is rather an extensive subject to bring in in that way.
The tribunal would make its recommendation to the Board of Trade. Where a duty has been imposed for a period of years, before that duty can be repealed it must be referred again to the tribunal, who shall reconsider the case and make a recommendation upon it to the President of the Board of Trade. Furthermore, it is provided that each manufacturing interest which is safeguarded shall make regular reports to the tribunal as to the progress that they have made under the influence of the duties. I am rather at a loss to know what arguments may be raised against me this afternoon. It may be that the old musty argument will be raised that goods pay for goods, and that the more we import the more we must export. Not long ago a very high personage appealed that there should be greater efficiency in salesmanship in this country, but, if that very old argument which I have repeated be true, any old thing at any old price can be sold provided that we only import sufficient. What is really true is that, in order to sell goods abroad, we must have great efficiency in salesmanship and in the quality of our goods, and, when we have succeeded in obtaining those orders abroad, we then have to secure payment.
There is only one way in which we can secure payment, and that is in goods; and if we have an import duty on manufactured goods which we do not want, we dictate to the foreigner that the payment shall be in the raw materials and foodstuffs that we do want—[HON. MEMBERS: "Iron and steel!"]—and not in manufactured goods, which are only going to put our people out of work. I believe in higher wages and a better standard of life. The only difference between hon. Members opposite and those on these benches is that we on these benches believe in making those better things economic. It is because I believe in those better things that I ask the House to give me permission to introduce this Bill, believing, as I do, that it will lead to greater efficiency and better happiness among our people.
We are in a great difficulty, because we have not had an opportunity of seeing the terms of the Bill which the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Remer) is asking to be allowed to introduce. He, of course, does not expect the Bill to pass; he does not desire the Bill to pass. [ Interruption. ] If he really desired a Bill of this nature to pass, he could have introduced it in the ordinary way and could have secured its First Reading without any trouble. He, of course, has brought forward this Bill simply in order to raise the tattered banner of Protection—
On a point of Order. Is it in order for one hon. Member to attribute bad faith to another hon. Member?
It is, of course, quite out of order to impute bad motives.
Has not the hon. Member done it in saying that the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Remer) is introducing a Bill which he hopes will not pass?
As regards attribution of bad faith, I certainly withdraw anything of that kind, but I think it is only fair criticism to say that the hon. Member is seeking to bring in this Bill for the purpose of advocating theories which are no longer held by a majority in this House, and it is a fair criticism to make, surely, that, if this Bill is going to achieve the very excellent results that the hon. Member has held out, he might have introduced it any time within the last five years. When there was a majority that certainly was more inclined to the Protectionist point of view, there was a greater chance of its being passed through the House than there is now, but the hon. Gentleman prefers to play the part of a political Rip van Winkle, and, after several years' delay, to present the Bill at this time.
We who are Free Traders in this House are thankful to him for that, for he has shown that this Free Trade country pays higher wages and works shorter hours than any of the countries in Europe, and, if the hon. Member had given us the full particulars, it would have been found that, the higher the Protectionist system in Europe, the lower are the wages and the longer are the hours worked. I would ask the hon. Member, if the Bill is discussed further in this House, to take the Protectionist taxes—there are several rates throughout the countries of Europe —and he will find that to be true in almost every one of those countries. He is asking for Protection for manufactured goods, but it is impossible for him, as it has been impossible for any controversialist in the last 20 or 30 years, to draw a distinction between manufactured goods and raw materials. [ Interruption. ] We had a Debate on the Floor of this House only a week ago, when it was shown that a tax of 33⅓ per cent. was to be placed on certain glass commodities which were regarded as being finished articles, but which were in fact the raw material for the manufacture of scientific glassware. The House on that occasion decided against us, unfortunately, by a coalition which left only the
Free Trade Liberals with a few of their friends in what I think was an honourable minority.
We have been charged in this case with going back to musty theories, but we have to remember that, when there were wise men in this country who led the country to break down the barriers of Protection, they raised the newer theories of Free Trade against the older shibboleths of Protection. It is to the older shibboleths, to the more musty theories, that we are asked this afternoon to return. It is not necessary at this time to go into the details of this Measure. We think that its proper destination is not a Committee Room upstairs, but the Parliamentary waste-paper basket, and I ask the House, by its vote, to consign this Bill thereto.
Question put,
"That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend the law as to manufactured goods made under conditions where the standard of wages is lower and the hours longer than allowed by the trade unions of this country."
The House divided: Ayes, 140; Noes, 272.
Division No. 71.] AYES. [4.37 p.m. Albery, Irving James Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Atholl, Duchess of Everard, W. Lindsay Mitchell-Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley) Falle, Sir Bertram G. Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. Balfour, George (Hampstead) Ferguson, Sir John Moore, Sir Newton J. (Richmond) Bellairs, Commander Carlyon Fermoy, Lord Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester) Berry, Sir George Fison, F. G. Clavering Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Bird, Ernest Roy Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley) Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Glyn. Major R. G. C. Nicholson, O. (Westminster) Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W. Grace, John Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G.(Ptrsf'ld) Boyce, H. L. Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Oman, Sir Charles William C. Bracken, B. Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. O'Neill, Sir H. Briscoe, Richard George Gunston, Captain D. W. Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William Buchan, John Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. Peake, Capt. Osbert Buckingham, Sir H. Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Penny, Sir George Butler, R. A. Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford) Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Carver, Major W. H. Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Power, Sir John Cecil Castle Stewart, Earl of Haslam, Henry C. Pownall, Sir Assheton Cautley, Sir Henry S. Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Purbrick, R. Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.) Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Ramsbotham, H. Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. Rawson, Sir Cooper Chamberlain. Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.) Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by) Reid, David D. (County Down) Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston) Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Chapman, Sir S. Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Ross, Major Ronald D. Christie, J. A. Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Salmon, Major I. Cohen, Major J. Brunel Hurd, Percy A. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Colfox, Major William Philip Hurst, Sir Gerald B. Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart Colman, N. C. D. Iveagh, Countess of Savery, S. S. Colville, Major D. J. Knox, Sir Alfred Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome Cranbourne, Viscount Lamb, Sir J. Q. Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down) Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Law, Sir Alfred (Derby, High Peak) Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) Crookshank, Capt. H. C. Leighton, Major B. E. P. Smith-Carington, Neville W. Croom-Johnson, R. P. Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th) Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East) Dalkeith, Earl of Long, Major Eric Southby, Commander A. R. J. Davies, Dr. Vernon Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Duckworth, G. A. V. Macquisten, F. A. Stewart, W. J. (Belfast, South) Dugdale, Capt. T. L. Makins, Brigadier-General E. Stuart, J. C. (Moray and Nairn) Eden, Captain Anthony Margesson, Captain H. D. Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton) Edmondson, Major A. J. Marjoribanks, E. C. Thomson, Sir F. Elliot, Major Walter F. Meller, R. J. Tinne, J. A. Titchfield, Major the Marquess of Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount Todd, Capt. A. J. Wardlaw-Milne, J. S. Womersley, W. J. Train, J. Warrender, Sir Victor Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Waterhouse, Captain Charles Turton, Robert Hugh Wayland, Sir William A. TELLERS FOR THE AYES — Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon Wells, Sydney B. Mr. Remer and Mr. Hannon. Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey) Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George NOES. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Gray, Milner Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne) Mander, Geoffrey le M. Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Mansfield, W. Aitchison, Rt. Hon. Craigie M. Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.) March, S. Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro') Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Marcus, M. Alpass, J. H. Groves, Thomas E. Markham, S. F. Ammon, Charles George Grundy, Thomas W. Marley, J. Angell, Norman Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Mathers, George Arnott, John Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Matters, L. W. Ayles, Walter Hall, Capt. W. P. (Portsmouth, C.) Messer, Fred Barnes, Alfred John Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Zetland) Middleton, G. Beckett, John (Camberwell, Peckham) Harbord, A. Millar, J. D. Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood Hardie, George D. Mills, J. E. Bennett, Captain E. N. (Cardiff, Central) Hastings, Dr. Somerville Milner, J. Bennett, William (Battersea, South) Haycock, A. W. Morgan, Dr. H. B. Benson, G. Hayday, Arthur Morley, Ralph Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale) Hayes, John Henry Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South) Blindell, James Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.) Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) Mort, D. L. Bowen, J. W. Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) Moses, J. J. H. Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Herriotts, J. Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent) Broad, Francis Alfred Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth) Muff, G. Brockway, A. Fenner Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Muggeridge, H. T. Bromfield, William Hoffman, P. C. Murnin, Hugh Bromley, J. Hollins, A. Nathan, Major H. L. Brooke, W. Hopkin, Daniel Naylor, T. E. Brothers, M. Horrabin, J. F. Newman. Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Brown, Ernest (Leith) Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) Noel Baker, P. J. Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Hunter, Dr. Joseph Oldfield, J. R. Buchanan, G. Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R. Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley) Burgess, F. G. Isaacs, George Owen, Major G. (Carnarvon) Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland) John, William (Rhondda, West) Owen. H. F. (Hereford) Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel (Norfolk, N.) Jones, F. Llewellyn- (Flint) Palin, John Henry Caine, Derwent Hall- Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Paling, Wilfrid Cameron, A. G. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Palmer, E. T. Cape, Thomas Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.) Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. Perry S. F. Charleton, H. C. Jowitt, Rt. Hon. Sir W. A. Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Chater, Daniel Kedward, R. M. (Kent, Ashford) Phillips, Dr. Marion Church, Major A. G. Kelly, W. T. Picton-Turbervill, Edith Cluse, W. S. Kennedy, Thomas Pole, Major D. G. Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Potts, John S. Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) Kinley, J. Price, M. P. Compton, Joseph Knight, Holford Pybus, Percy John Cove, William G. Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton) Quibell, D. J. K. Cowan, D. M. Lang, Gordon Ramsay, T. B. Wilson Daggar, George Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George Rathbone, Eleanor Dallas, George Lathan, G. Raynes, W. R. Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Law, Albert (Bolton) Richards, R. Day, Harry Law, A. (Rosendale) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Denman, Hon. R. D. Lawrence, Susan Riley, Ben (Dewsbury) Dickson, T. Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge) Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees) Dudgeon, Major C. R. Lawson, John James Ritson, J. Dukes, C. Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle) Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) Duncan, Charles Leach, W. Romeril, H. G. Ede, James Chuter Lee, Frank (Derby, N. E.) Rosbotham, D. S. T. Edge, Sir William Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern) Rowson, Guy Edmunds, J. E. Lees, J. Salter, Dr. Alfred Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Lewis, T. (Southampton) Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen) Edwards, E. (Morpeth) Lindley, Fred W. Samuel, H. W. (Swansea, West) Egan, W. H. Lloyd, C. Ellis Sanders, W. S. Elmley, Viscount Longbottom, A. W. Sawyer, G. F. England, Colonel A. Longden, F. Scrymgeour, E. Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) Lovat-Fraser, J. A. Scurr, John Freeman, Peter Lowth, Thomas Sexton, James Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.) MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham) Sherwood, G. H. George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd (Car'vn) McElwee, A. Shield, George William Gibbins, Joseph McEntee, V. L. Shillaker J. F. Gill T. H. Mackinder, W. Simmons, C. J. Glassey, A. E. McKinlay, A. Simon. E. D. (Manch'ter, Withington) Gosling, Harry Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Sinclair, Sir A. (Caithness) Gossling, A. G. MacNeill-Weir, L. Sinkinson, George Gould F. McShane, John James Sitch, Charles H.
Smith, Alfred (Sunderland) Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) West, F. R. Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) Thurtle, Ernest White, H. G Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) Tillett, Ben Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood) Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Tinker, John Joseph Whiteley, William (Blaydon) Smith, Tom (Pontefract) Toole, Joseph Wilkinson, Ellen C. Smith, W. R. (Norwich) Tout, W. J. Williams, David (Swansea, East) Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Williams Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Snowden, Thomas (Accrington) Vaughan, D. J. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Sorensen, R. Viant, S. P. Wilson, J. (Oldham) Spero, Dr. G. E. Wallace, H. W. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Stamford, Thomas W. Wallhead, Richard C. Winterton, G. E. (Leicester, Loughb'gh) Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Watkins, F. C. Wise, E. F. Strachey, E. J. St. Loe Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff) Strauss, G. R. Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Young, R. S. (Islington, North) Sutton, J. E. Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln) Wellock, Wilfred TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.) Welsh, James (Paisley) Mr. Foot and Mr. George Oliver. Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby) Welsh, James C. (Coatbridge)
Provisional Order Bills (No Standing Orders Applicable)
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That in the case of the following Bill, referred on the First Reading thereof, no Standing Orders are applicable, namely:
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Fylde Water Board) Bill.
Bill to be read a Second time To-morrow.
Highlands and Islands (Medical Service) Additional Grant Bill
Reported, without Amendment, from the Standing Committee on Scottish Bills.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed.
Bill, not amended (in the Standing Committee), to be taken into consideration upon Thursday.
Message from the Lords
That they have agreed to,
Widows', Orphans', and Old Age Contributory Pensions Bill, with Amendments.
Widows', Orphans', and Old Age Contributory Pensions Bill
Lords Amendments to be considered upon Thursday, and to the printed. [Bill 88.]
Orders of the Day
Under-Secretaries of State Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
I hope the House will believe me when I say that I regret very much the necessity for this Bill. It has been caused through what I venture to describe on my own behalf as a very innocent inadvertence. I made a mistake in forming the Government last June, and have to ask relief from the House for that mistake. I can only say, although I in no way wish to minimise the seriousness of my blunder, that there was a good deal of naturalness in it. For over 80 years the law has been that in this House could sit Under-Secretaries of State equal in number to the whole number of Secretaries of State minus one, and, in consequence, that the one should be in another place.
When, in 1924, I was called upon to form a Government, without having gone through the process before, either as a responsible or a subordinate person, I naturally tried to inform myself where all the snares and pitfalls of Government formation lay, and in 1924 I was warned to be sure that one of my Under-Secretaries of State sat in the other House. I should like the House to remember that from time to time we have added to the Secretaryships of State. That does not require legislation, but what always happened up till 1925, when the Colonial Office was divided into two, was that, when a new Secretaryship of State was created, a Bill was immediately introduced and passed changing the number of Under-Secretaries of State who might sit in this House.
In 1924 I was perfectly correct. I had only one Under-Secretary of State elsewhere. When I was forming the Government this year, I simply went back on my old authority and repeated to myself in June, when it was known that a Government would have to be formed, the formula as repeated to me in 1924, "Be sure you have one Under-Secretaryship of State in the other place," quite forget- ting—it was never present to my mind— that a year after I had formed my first Government my successors had divided the Secretaryship of State for the Colonies, turning it into two Secretaryships of State, and, above that, being innocently oblivious of the fact—if it was a fault I really must take it upon my shoulders—that for the first time my predecessors had created a new Secretaryship of State without following it up by legislation increasing the number of Under-Secretaries of State who might sit in this House. That is the origin of my mistake. I am very sorry indeed, and I hope the House will accept my apology and explanation and give an indemnity to the Under-Secretaries who have suffered, or might suffer, in consequence.
There is a curious precedent. Those of us who are somewhat devoted to the memory of Lord Palmerston will be very much surprised that he, above all Prime Ministers, could have made a blunder of exactly the same kind that I made a month or two ago. When he was in Office, in 1863, he appointed five Undersecretaries of State, when he was only entitled to appoint four, to sit in this House, and the curious thing was that for practically 12 months to a day no one discovered it. He made the mistake on 28th April, 1863, and the attention of the House of Commons was drawn to it on 15th April, 1864. I am not going to fall back on the attack, combined with the excuse, that Lord Palmerston did, but I should like to read a sentence or two of what he said in that Debate in order to suggest that the responsibility for the delay, though it lies very heavily on my shoulders, does not lie altogether upon them. He said, referring to the Opposition: violated in the innocence of my heart, but they refrained from bringing in the law that they really ought to have done.
5.0 p.m.
I have one further explanation to give. The curious thing was that this was not discovered by anyone in this House. I understand that it was discovered by one of those delightful people, parish clergymen, who spend their lives in acquiring interesting and out of the way knowledge. It was not discovered, so far as I can make out, certainly it did not come to my notice, before I left for America. When I returned from America, I found despatch box after despatch box full of papers, more or less ancient records, and, if I exercised a certain amount of laziness in ploughing through their terribly barren pages, I am sure those who have had to undertake similar tasks would be the first to forgive me in being a little slow in getting to the end of my accumulation. There I discovered a note about the illegal position of the Undersecretaries of State. I had to make inquiries as to what it meant, and, when I discovered what it meant, I was up against two more problems. I was up against the problem that I was very strongly advised to change the law in order that it might conform to the previous practice. I decided that I would not do that. I was advised, not only by Members of this House but by those belonging to the other place, that I should take the opportunity of my rather troublesome blunder, which is the sort of thing that rather annoys me, to bring the idea up to date as well as the law, in this way. Why should this rule apply only to the Under-Secretaryships of State? Since that law was passed and it became our law and practice, certain Departments of State have grown until, I think, we can say, without casting any reflection upon the importance of Secretaryships of State, that these newer Departments are quite as important. I was very strongly urged to take this opportunity of adding to the list, adding to a sort of schedule, from which the Secretaryships might be drawn for the purpose of deciding the mathematical relations between those who sat on this bench and those who sat on that. I happened to consult one of the people about it, and on the whole I came to the conclusion that if I had made a mistake, as I have, and if I wanted this House to obliterate my name from the list of possible criminals, it was fairest to this House that I should simply ask for an indemnity, and not try to make any legal alterations in the rule. When I had made up my mind that that was the best thing to do, and the thing which I thought this House would appreciate most, I had to face the task, and everybody who has had to face the same task will sympathise with me because I had to face it. That was the difficulty. Therefore, if hon. Members will just pass these various necessary processes through their minds they will see that I ought not to be blamed for any delay which is really a necessary delay. With that explanation, I hope that the House will allow me to get this Bill in all its stages.
I beg to move, to leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, and to add instead thereof the words: whole aim and object of limiting the number of Under-Secretaries, as everybody well knows, is to limit the patronage and the power of the executive government of the country. That has been the whole aim and object of this rule, and if it was necessary to limit the power of the executive when we had only four Under-secretaries, it is a graver matter now that we have six Undersecretaries. It is really part and parcel of the campaign which the Lord Chief Justice is waging at this moment to limit the power of the executive with regard to patronage. The Lord Chief Justice has not got much assistance from this House, but he has received a good deal of support from the Press. In 1864, in order to show the gravity of the matter, Lord Palmerston, Sir George Gray and the Attorney-General stated—and it was the whole gist of their speeches—that it must never happen again. On that occasion, instead of the matter being dealt with by only one debate—which is going to be the case in respect of this Bill of Indemnity —there were two discussions on the question of privilege. They then appointed a Select Committee—which is my precedent for moving this Motion—to inquire into a doubtful point—and this again is the proposal which I make because we have to find out the reason for that long delay after the Prime Minister knew that he was outside the law—and in addition, to passing a Bill of Indemnity they followed it by a special Act of Parliament in order that that sort of thing should never happen again. In fact, the whole idea on that occasion was to pass an Act of Parliament which should be foolproof. It proved not to be foolproof, and the right hon. Gentleman has succeeded in driving the proverbial coach with seven Under-Secretaries on board right through the Act of Parliament.
The Prime Minister has answered several questions in regard to this matter. In one of those answers he said that the mistake arose because the authority consulted had given his opinion before 1926. When he speaks of "the authority consulted," it shows that he had the specific number of Under-Secretaries in his mind; he must have known that he had seven Under-Secretaries. Who was the authority consulted? We have not been told. The Attorney-General is supposed to advise the Government. The limitation is quite clear. It is not merely in the Act of 1864, but it is in all the subsequent Acts, and also in the Act of 1926 when we created the Secretaryship of State for Scotland. It was in all the text books, and in every single edition of May's Parliamentary Practice you have a clear statement in regard to this matter.
If that is going to be the point, I do not want any question of veracity or anything like that to be raised. I looked up the report in the OFFICIAL REPORT, and I believe that I did say "1926," because in reply to a supplementary question I felt that 1926 was the year that the division of offices had taken place as a result of the Imperial Conference. That is a mistake. The division took place before 1925. The reason why 1926 was mentioned was because I was under the impression at the moment, in reply to a supplementary question, that 1926 was the year of division. What I really meant to say was that I consulted the authorities really before 1924, and, as I explained, my 1924 authorities were good till 1925, and, unfortunately, I carried it out in a moment when I was not aware or conscious that any change had taken place, and therefore I was wrong.
Of course, I accept the right hon. Gentleman's explanation. I cannot understand why the right hon. Gentleman should refer to the number of Under-Secretaries of State in this House as related to the number of Secretaries of State in both Houses. It always had been the rule that both should be limited to a certain fixed and not a relative number. There is no permanent relation such as he mentioned in his speech in introducing this Bill between the Secretaries of State in both Houses and Under-Secretaries of State in this House. [ Interruption. ] To keep to the main point. The right hon. Gentleman has not told us why he did not act at once when he was told that he was not within the law. That is really the important thing we should bring out. We believe the right hon. Gentleman had domestic difficulties in his party. Was it the executive of his party, or was it that the feelings of Under-Secretaries had to be considered? I should like information on these points. All that we have heard from the right hon. Gentleman is that he said that he had bad rather delicate and troublesome negotiations. Will he tell us what were these delicate and troublesome negotiations? He did know of the violation of the law when he got back from America. I do not want to press the right ton. Gentleman too closely in regard to the domestic affairs of his party, but I think we are entitled to put the law and the constitution of this House above the feelings of his Under-Secretaries or of the power of the executive of his party. Those are the things I want to know. It is not a matter of a few days, but of a good many days when he knew he was outside the law and took no steps to put himself at once within the law as did Lord Palmerston.
The Bill of Indemnity—the right hon. Gentleman has not explained the terms of the Bill—rests on Clause 1 and on the fact that the Government could not determine which Under-Secretary had to resign his seat. The right hon. Gentleman may have appointed all the Undersecretaries in a batch. The original Act of 1864, in Section 2, makes it a specific offence for each of the Under-Secretaries to sit or vote in this House when there is a larger number than is laid down by the law. This Section 2 laid down a very heavy fine up to £500 a day, making it a day-to-day offence, and yet the right hon. Gentleman allowed this offence to continue days and days after he had found out that it was against the law and the constitution of this House. The right hon. Gentleman has also said that the question is very complicated. I say that it is not more complicated than this, namely, that six, plus one is seven, and that seven is more than six. I say to the right hon. Gentleman that we have a right to expect that the Leader of the House should not allow the constitution of this House to be overridden by any considerations of the feelings of Under-Secretaries or any organisation of his party, whichever it may be that influenced him. I quite accept the Bill of Indemnity in regard to the first period when the right hon. Gentleman did not know he was breaking the law. It was a mistake. But I want a fuller explanation with regard to the second period, and that is what the Select Committee should find out. There I am following the precedent of 1864 when they referred the one doubtful point to a Select Committee and they did not have the Bill of Indemnity until after the Select Committee had reported. At the present the right hon. Gentleman is the judge in his own case. He brings in a Bill of Indemnity and asks us in a very short speech of explanation to pass it. I am asking, on principle and on precedent, that the House shall pass this Motion of mine, that the Bill shall be postponed until a Select Committee has reported. I think that it is the fairest way of dealing with the right hon. Gentleman and with the House itself.
I beg to second the Amendment.
I should not do so for one moment if I thought that I was endangering the claim put forward for indemnity by Undersecretaries. They enjoy the respect and friendship of hon. Members in all parts of the House, and nobody challenges in the least their claim to indemnity. The only reason I second the Amendment is that it was emphatically laid down in 1864 for the guidance of the House of Commons that the proper course to be adopted was to appoint a Select Committee. This procedure was carried unanimously in 1864, and since then it has been regarded as the standard procedure to be taken in the event of a mistake of this sort occurring. The only issue which the Amendment raises is whether that standard procedure should or should not be followed. The Prime Minister has quoted what Lord Palmers-ton said on that occasion. May I quote what a much greater man said on the same occasion—Disraeli: keep an eye on the number of Ministers who have seats in this House. There seems to be no ground for regarding the precedent of 1864 as being unreasonable and, that being so, I submit that it is the proper course for all those who believe in the continuation of our constitution to follow that example. With that end in view I beg to second the Amendment.
I hope the House will allow me to say a word or two on the Amendment moved by my hon. Friends from this side of the House. I do not think the House can complain for a moment that the Amendment has been moved, because my hon. Friend's desire to call attention to the precedent of 1864, and this House ought always to consider precedents in cases of this kind. Having listened carefully to what they have said the one consideration which seems to me important, and as one who has had some experience of the difficulties through which Prime Ministers pass, is that a precedent more than 60 years old, although perhaps it should be an example, is not necessarily one which should govern the case which has arisen to-day. This is a different world to that which existed in 1864. It was a very good world in 1864, because about that time were born the Prime Minister, the leader of the Liberal party, and myself; but at the same time, the work that has fallen on Ministers, and particularly on the Prime Minister, has increased out of all knowledge in the last 60 years as the work of this House has also increased.
While 60 years ago this question might have afforded a pleasant subject for debate for days, to-day the situation is different. It might have been very culpable to have made such a slip, a regrettable one, 60 years ago; it is to-day much more understandable, and while 60 years ago there might have been blame attaching to so admirable a Government as that of Lord Palmerston for not having seen this grievous wrong, to-day so many are the faults of the Government that it does not matter. But with all respect, I suggest that, having ventilated the subject, my hon. Friends in the circumstances may feel that sufficient has been said. The Government acknowledge that a regrettable error has been committed. I confess that it is an error that I might easily have fallen into myself. It had been admitted; it has been satisfactorily explained, and the Prime Minister has appeared in a white sheet. I assure him that I have no desire to throw anything on that white sheet to smirch it, 'and, so far as I am concerned, I shall be glad if the House will proceed with the Bill in all its stages and get on to the business of the evening.
I should like to endorse the appeal that has been made by the Leader of the Opposition. The speech delivered by the Prime Minister has been exceptionally frank, and he has made it quite clear that the mistake was not due to any original sin on his part or any dark and sinister design against the Constitution of this country. It was really a matter which anyone might have overlooked. There have been so many changes in regard to Ministers and Under-Secretaries, whether in the position of principals or subordinates, or what is much more important, in the position of in-subordinates, that the right hon. Gentleman might easily have overlooked the matter.
I agree with the Leader of the Opposition that it is not easy to quote 1864. If anyone wants to realise the difference between 1864 and the present day let him go to the Library and read the first volume of "Hansard" in any Session and read the Queen's Speech. He will find the same Bills promised each successive year during the whole of the Palmerston Administration. In those old days there were Bills promised dealing with the representation of the people, the registration of titles of land, and always a reform of the bankruptcy laws. These Bills appeared in each successive year. They were never carried through. Very few got a First Reading, and, as a matter of fact, they were never touched until Mr. Gladstone came into office. It is idle for the hon. and gallant Member for Maidstone (Commander Bellairs) to refer to 1864. It was a good time to start in, but it is a good time to get away from as rapidly as possible. I am afraid some of us are getting away from it at an accelerated speed. I think, after the frank way in which the Prime Minister has made it clear that the mistake was a very natural one in the circumstances, there will be no general desire to inflict punishment on poor Under-Secretaries for a mistake which was made by their chief.
Some of us who sit on the back benches are often entranced by the eloquence of those who sit on the two Front Benches. Right hon. Gentlemen have talked about 1864 as though that was the beginning of English history. The Amendment to this Bill has been moved by the representative of one of the old corrupt boroughs.
I have the honour to represent the Maidstone Division, and there has been no charge of corruption ever made against it.
It is part of English history that the Lord of the Manor had the right to send his puppets to Parliament, and Maidstone was one of the Parliamentary Divisions that sent a puppet to this House. Evidently history is repeating itself, and on the pure milk of the gospel we got a lecture on constitutionalism to-day by a gentleman who geographically knows nothing about it. We on these benches are here by the votes of the people, not by the nod of the landlord; and when hon. Members talk about 1864 as though it was a date sacrosanct in the constitutional history of this country I would ask them to go back to the period when the Government was nominated to do nothing; and did it very well. There was no constitution then except their own—and they had big constitutions. What is the crime which the Prime Minister is said to have committed? He is trying to make the machinery of the State work to the convenience of the people. I know that everyone in this House believes in the future, although some of them live in the past. I believe in the past, present and future, and if we want more Under-Secretaries why cannot we have them? They are a harmless lot. Are they not worth their money? I have nothing to complain about concerning them. I would rather be on the back bench telling them what I think about them, rather than competing with them for their positions. They are doing their best.
I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Main Question put; and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read a Second time.
Resolved, "That this House will immediately resolve itself into the Committee on the Bill."—[ The Prime Minister. ]
Bill accordingly considered in Committee.
[Mr. DUNNICO in the Chair.]
CLAUSE 1.—(Indemnity for Under-Secretaries of State named in Act.)
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
I should like an explanation of the words:
"disabilities whatsoever, if any, incurred or to be incurred."
I understood the Prime Minister to say that he did not intend to alter the law in any way, but it seems to me that the words "to be incurred" would allow him in future, without penalty, to commit the same error that he is now remedying. Therefore, I would ask the exact meaning of the words, and whether it would not be better to delete them.
I think the hon. and gallant Member will see that the words are necessary. A penalty is only incurred as and when the Court pronounces the penalty. A fine is incurred when the Court adjudges that the fine has been incurred and is payable. Supposing that on some date in the future the Court was to adjudge that one or some of the Ministers had incurred and was liable to a fine by reason of what they had done in the past, it would be appropriate to refer to such a penalty as a penalty which, judging from the present point of time, would be described as occurring in the future. That is why we use the words "to be incurred," although the acts that we had in mind were certainly acts which had taken place in the past.
Am I right in assuming that these words will not permit this Government or any other Government to make any alteration in the existing law?
Most certainly. All that we are desiring to do is to bring ourselves in order with regard to errors which have taken place in the past.
Question put, and agreed to.
Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 2 ( Provision as to members elected previously to passing of this Act ) and 3 ( Short Title ), ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Preamble agreed to.
Bill reported, without Amendment; read the Third time, and passed.
Unemployment Insurance (No. 2) Bill
Considered in Committee [ Progress, 2nd December ].
[Mr. DUNNICO in the Chair.]
CLAUSE 2.—(Bates of benefit.)
The first Amendment that I propose to call stands in the name of the hon. Member for Bootle (Mr. Kinley).
For the convenience of the Committee, would you tell us which Amendments you propose to call?
I propose to leave out all the Amendments which appear on page 219 of the Order Paper. On page 220, I shall call the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Bootle—in page 2, line 8, leave out the word "nine" and insert instead thereof the word "ten"; the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for North Lanark (Miss Lee)—in page 2, line 9, at end, insert the words:
"and the increase in respect of children shall be five shillings instead of two shillings in respect of each child";
and the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Birkenhead, East (Mr. Graham White):
"( b ) Where a person entitled to benefit (not being a person entitled to an increase of the weekly rate otherwise than in respect of dependent children) has residing with him and is wholly or mainly maintaining a sister or daughter who has at some time been engaged in the care of his dependent children the weekly rate shall be increased by nine shillings."
On page 221, I propose to call the Amendment standing in the name of the right hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Ormsby-Gore)—in page 2, line 10, leave out paragraph ( b ); the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. and gallant Member for North Hackney (Captain A. Hudson) —in page 2, line 21, at end, insert the words:
"Provided that the additional sum of nine shillings shall not be payable in respect of a female person who is in receipt of benefit (including benefit under any special scheme), or who is in regular wage-earning employment other than as having the care of the dependent children of the person entitled to benefit, or is engaged in any occupation ordinarily carried on for profit";
and the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for South Poplar (Mr. March)—in page 2, line 21, at end, insert the words:
"( c ) where a widower entitled to benefit has a daughter residing with him in the capacity of housekeeper, the weekly rate shall be increased by nine shillings."
On page 222, I propose to call the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Remer)—in page 2, line 28, after the word "infirmity," insert the words:
"as certified by an independent medical officer appointed by the Minister;"
and the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Pontefract (Mr. T. Smith)—in page 2, line 40, leave out the words "and sisters" and insert instead thereof the words:
"half-brothers, and step-brothers, and the younger sisters, half-sisters and stepsisters."
On page 223, I propose to call the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. and gallant Member for Ayr Burghs (Lieut.-Colonel Moore)—in page 3, line 6, at end, add the words:
"Provided that the claimant establishes the fact of dependency for at least six months before the claim to benefit is made;"
the second Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. Malone)—in page 3, line 6, at end, add the words:
"( g ) in Sub-section (1) of Section one of the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1922, before the words, 'engaged in any occupation ordinarily carried on for profit,' there shall be inserted the word 'normally'";
and the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Maryhill (Mr. Clarke)—in page 3, line 6, at end, add the words:
"( g ) The expression 'occupation ordinarily carried on for profit' in the proviso to Sub-section ( c ) of Section one of the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1922, shall not include the provision of board and accommodation for a lodger as one of the family."
I beg to move, in page 2, line 8, to leave out the word "nine," and to insert instead thereof the word "ten."
This Amendment is of a modest character, and I trust that it will commend itself to the Government and the Committee. It is an improvement upon the existing Measure, and will give an increased amount. Although it will increase the amount in needy cases it falls short of what the whole of the Labour movement recognises at the present time as being the minimum. We are certainly not under the impression that the 10s. asked for in the Amendment represents an excessive amount; not one of us would subscribe to that opinion. Not one of us would agree for a moment that 10s. is an adequate amount in the circumstances, but it does represent the minimum that can be asked for by the whole of the organisations which make up the Labour movement that we represent. It has been asked for by them over and over again, and is regarded by them as the very least that can be asked for, with the knowledge that they have of the circumstances under which the unemployed live, although it is much less than they would like to vote when such a Bill is before the House.
Seeing that the amount for which we are pleading is so tiny, we have a good and sound hope that on this occasion we shall be successful. I particularly hope that our own people on these benches will support us. One has not much to hope for so far as the Opposition is concerned, but from our own side we have a right to expect support for this Amendment, because we are the only party which from actual experience knows the difference that such an amount would make in the homes where married people live and where week after week the man takes home his unemployment benefit. The extra 1s. in itself is only an insignificant amount, almost not worth speaking of, but in these particular homes, as we know from our own experience and the experience of our friends and relations, it would make a wonderful difference at the present time. As the present time is not operative as far as the Bill is concerned, we are trying to get the additional amount for the time when the Bill operates, because I am so confident that the Amendment will be accepted, I will not inflict a longer speech upon the Committee.
Would not this Amendment incur an increased charge upon the public, and is it not therefore out of order?
I do not think that it increases directly the charge, any more than other Amendments that have been moved. If this Amendment were carried the result would be to increase the charge upon the Insurance Fund and might conceivably make it bankrupt. It does not involve a direct charge upon the taxpayer. On these grounds, I rule that it is in order.
Would not a proportion of the additional 1s. have to be borne by the taxpayers' money, which comes from the Exchequer? Is it not a charge upon the public in that sense?
Has it not been held by previous occupants of the Chair that a question of increased charge arises where there is a definite and direct indication in the Resolution before the House that a particular payment is going to be made by taxation, and that it will involve increased taxation?
That is definitely the ruling laid down from the Chair in all such cases as the one before us.
I have not spoken on this Bill before, and I do not intend to speak on any other part of the Bill but I do want, in the fewest words that I can command, to ask the Minister of Labour whether it is not possible to give a concession on this Amendment. I know that she has done very well in parcelling out the money at her disposal, and that she has tried to do her very best in giving what she can to the wives of the unemployed men; but I do beg of her to see whether it would not be possible to make a concession in this case. These wives of the unemployed men have been through hell these last few years. No women have had to put up with what they have had to face. They have had the whole burden of the children on their shoulders during this trying time. They have sacrificed themselves; they have starved themselves for their children, very often. Although it is only 1s. for which we are pleading, it is the amount that was put forward by the Trades Union Congress. I do ask the Minister whether, in view of the heroic struggle that these women have had to fight, and that they are the most needy of the women in this country, she could give some concession.
I very much regret that I shall have to give what I suppose some of my hon. Friends will regard as a stereotyped reply. This particular benefit will cost the Fund and the Treasury £1,650,000.
The extra 1s.?
No, the benefit in the Bill; the additional benefit of 2s. for dependants. The addition of another 1s. would mean a further £825,000, and it is quite outside my power to give the concession asked for in the very reasonable and poignant appeal made by the hon. Member for Middlesbrough East (Miss Wilkinson). In connection with this Amendment and subsequent Amendments, the same difficulty arises. We have a certain amount of money which has been allocated for this Bill. There may be strong differences of opinion as to the wisdom or unwisdom of the allocation, but in regard to the total sum I am afraid that it is the last word. Therefore, I regret that I cannot accept the Amendment.
May I ask the Minister if to all requests which involve an increase in the monetary cost of this Measure, her answer must be in the negative? Does that apply to future Amendments as well?
If I may be permitted to reply, I would say that it does apply in every case where an increase of cost is involved.
The Minister has said in reply to a question by the hon. Member for East Middlesbrough (Miss Wilkinson) that the additional cost represented by this shilling would be £825,000. I take it that that would be the cost for the year?
Yes, the annual cost.
May I put to the right hon. Lady a point of which I think she and her colleagues have lost sight. Should there be, as we hope there will be, a material reduction in the numbers of unemployed, as a result of the various schemes which are being brought before the House and the country by the Members of the Cabinet who have been entrusted with that task— [ Laughter. ] I am speaking seriously. Unemployment is not a laughing matter for those directly concerned. Hon. Members opposite who take a humorous view of it might understand the reality of things a little better if they spent six or nine months unemployed and had to depend on unemployment benefit or parish relief. I ask the Minister if the possibility which I have just mentioned has been taken into consideration in fixing this Estimate at the figure mentioned, and if taken into consideration will it lead her to modify her views, either on this Amendment or on subsequent Amendments which may involve some trifling increase in the amounts to be paid?
On looking into the figures which I gave during the Second Reading Debate it will be seen that the Estimate was based upon a register of unemployment considerably lower than the existing register, and the register must go down considerably if I am to pay my way in the ensuing 12 months.
I have a great deal of sympathy with the right hon. Lady, and I am satisfied that if the decision as regard this Amendment were in her hands she would very readily grant the concession which is sought. I know it is a power stronger than hers which has laid down the law on this matter for reasons which undoubtedly seem good to that power, but which have left me up to now totally unconvinced. I am quite sure that that power could be brought to make some concession, if we had behind us a very strong vote from this Committee in support of this Amendment. I want to try to persuade hon. and right hon. Gentlemen in all parts of the Committee to vote for this Amendment which proposes to give to the wife of an unemployed man 10s. a week. It is not exactly a princely sum. Two dinners in the dining room with the appropriate concomitants would walk away with that sum very easily —the sum that we ask should be given to the woman who is keeping up a home and looking after a husband and children, for all the additional household expenses involved and her own maintenance. I understand that hon. Members opposite are afraid to give money to people who do not work because of the terrible danger there is of demoralising such people; but has that argument any application to the case of the housewife? The mother, in a working class home, particularly if the husband is unemployed, has a full-time job. There is no danger of her being demoralised by lack of work. She has to keep the home going on a very insufficient sum; she has to keep it clean and she has to feed, clothe and keep in good spirits a family group in which all the general circumstances make for depression. The most important element in the maintenance of the moral of a home of that kind is the spirit and the courage with which the woman can face her daily task.
I am quite sure that the Government would not regard a vote on this issue as a matter of confidence. I think they would be very wrong to do anything of the kind, and I urge the right hon. Lady to let everyone in the Committee go into the Lobbies on the merits of the question before us, which is a question of giving these women just a little bit of ease from a terrific burden—that little bit of ease represented by an additional 1s. per week. I am sure that if hon. Members voted on intelligent human considerations this Amendment would be carried by a substantial majority, and, believe me, it would be a much greater pleasure to me to see this Committee acting in accordance with the dictates of its conscience and its heart than to be in a small minority. I would rather see 500 men going into the Lobby in support of this Amendment than to feel that there are only a dozen or 20 people here who feel the necessities of the case, and who recognise that this is a matter which is fundamental to our national life. It would give me far greater pleasure to see a majority supporting this Amendment than to find myself in a minority, because I, certainly, whatever the majority of the Committee do, will go into the Lobby in support of this Amendment and carry with me as many of my friends as possible.
I think some words are necessary to strengthen the appeal which has been made by the hon. Members for East Middlesbrough (Miss Wilkinson) and Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton), and perhaps I may venture to add something to what they have said about the responsibilities of maintaining a home under conditions of unemployment. In times of distress the work of the mother in a home becomes infinitely greater than it is during times of prosperity. She has to make greater efforts to eke out her meagre resources; she has to do more mending and darning and, generally speaking, her work becomes more arduous as the poverty of the household increases. The question of cost has been raised. I know that hon. Members opposite consider that we have already started on a rake's progress as far as this Bill goes, without adding any of the expenditure proposed in these very small Amendments. The right hon. Lady has said that this concession would cost £825,000 per annum. It might be less as unemployment decreases and probably would be less in such circumstances. I echo what has been said by the hon. Member for Bridgeton. I believe that if the right hon. Lady had her way she would grant this concession. She has been connected with working women for the greater part of her life, and must realise the struggle which the mothers have in times such as those through which we are passing.
I would remind hon. Members opposite that this concession is not such a big thing after all. It would amount to about half a farthing or one-eighth of a penny in the £ on the Income Tax and I am not going to believe that this nation cannot afford one-eighth of a penny on the Income Tax to grant a concession of this kind. If we have come to that pass, then the sooner we put up the shutters the better. May I also suggest to hon. Members opposite, who run economy campaigns in these matters, that they have left their task rather late. They ought to have begun a great deal earlier. I could easily mention several matters in respect of which they might have preached economy during the last 10 years with some effect. For instance I could point out that in 1919 the National Debt was £7,435,000,000 and in 1928 it was £7,732,000,000. In the course of the years between 1919 and 1928 we had, by means of the Sinking Fund, taken £810,000,000 off the National Debt; but although we had paid that amount off the Debt, it was bigger at the end of the period than It was when we began to pay off that amount. In the same period we paid over £3,000,000,000 in interest alone. There is a field for economy. For Heaven's sake, do not let us talk about economy, and about demoralisation, while the nation is prepared to borrow money on a scale like that, while we jib at putting half a farthing in the £ on the Income Tax for the purpose of granting a shilling a week to distressed women.
6.0 p.m.
After listening to my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) and the hon. Lady the Member for East Middlesbrough (Miss Wilkinson) one feels a certain tugging at the heart-strings to think that one has to vote against so small a proposition as a shilling increase to the mother of the family of an unemployed person. My reason for intervening is not to intimate that I am voting against the Government, but to give some justification for being in the position of having to support the Government, even though I have every sympathy with the point of view expressed by my hon. Friends who have already spoken. I am tempted to do this, because I believe that my position is very much the same as that of other Members on this side of the Committee, who, with all the sympathy in the world for the family of the unemployed person, yet feel that nothing ought to be done in Committee or in the House which might jeopardise the passing of this Bill. After all, this Bill represents an improvement on the existing position and if, by virtue of the sympathy which we have for the family of the unemployed person, we were to take steps which might mean ultimately the rejection or even the withdrawal of the Bill—by reason of that greater power behind the Minister referred to by the hon. Member for Bridgeton—we would defeat our own object. Those who are putting forward this Amendment have no monopoly of sympathy and I am not suggesting that they themselves take that view. I give them the credit for being sincere in the proposal which they have brought forward. I think, however, not only with regard to this Amendment, but with regard to other Amendments that have been proposed and that are yet to come, that if we value the safety of the Bill and attach any importance at all to the interests of those whose case has been so eloquently pleaded, we must view the matter as a whole and not in regard to any particular Amendment. Therefore, I feel satisfied in justifying my action in supporting the Government against the Amendment, not because I feel that the 1s. is too much or ought not to be given, but rather that I do not want to take any steps that will jeopardise this measure of improvement for those whom we represent.
I am most profundly unimpressed and unconvinced and disappointed at the explanation given by the Minister of Labour. I can quite understand that her intentions are just as good as mine and that she wants to do this, but when we are told that we cannot afford £875,000,000 a year— [HON MEMBERS: "Millions?"] If you want us to talk about millions, I will. It is marvellous how stingy you can become when there is a war on poverty and how generous you can be when it is a war to turn another country into graveyards. This country, in which we were going to have a new heaven and a new earth because of the War, would have kept the War going on for two or three more years if necessary, and if we had kept it going for only one more year the extra interest alone would have been £155,000,000, or something like 200 times the amount for which we are asking in this Amendment. If war were to break out to-morrow, we would find millions and millions for it. We can find lots of money for murder. We can find £7,500,000 for the Rodneys, but not 10s. a week for the wives of the poor people who are out of work.
I believe we can afford this and a whole lot more. So far as I know, there is no shortage of wealth in this country, and all that we propose to do is to give certain people a call upon wealth that they may spend 1s. more with the bootmaker, the butcher, and the baker. If we are short of wealth, if we cannot give 1s. more to the dependent person, then everybody ought to be working. All that we propose to do is to give another 1s. call on the products of labour, and what those who oppose us have to do is to demonstrate that this country is short of the products of labour. If we are, there should be no unemployment problem; everybody should be working. If we are short of wealth, there is something rotten and wrong when certain people can do nothing and get over £2,000 per week. If we are short of wealth, there should be a more equitable distribution of wealth. We should give at least this 1s. more to those dependants who, through no fault of their own, are now walking the via Dolorosa. I am profoundly unimpressed by the statements from the Treasury Bench concerning the finance of this Measure, and I am not so impressed with the necessity of a balanced Budget next time. We did not have a balanced Budget during the War, and we need not have one now, particularly when we have to face all the horrible problems of the system under which we live and the aftermath of the War.
I rise to put one or two questions to hon. Members on the back benches opposite for my own guidance. I listened just now to the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton), and he put a question to us. He asked if we consider 10s. too much for the wife of an unemployed man. Of course we do not consider it too much. If the question were put to me personally, I should say that 10s. is not enough for her. I do not know how she can manage under the present conditions, and I am also of the opinion that she has the first claim, that those who are the poorest in the community have the first claim on the resources of the community. I do not think there would be any difference between those who sit below the Gangway on the benches opposite and those who sit below the Gangway on this side that the first claim upon the community is the claim of those who are most in need. That is a doctrine that is not a Socialist doctrine, as I understand it, but one that was taught by a great Liberal many years ago, when he spoke of those who had the heaviest stake in the country being those to whom the loss of money did not mean mortified pride and stinted luxury, but pain and want and degradation to themselves and to their children as well.
That was taught by a great Christian long before that.
I agree, and there is no difference upon that, so that if the hon. Member asks me if 9s. is enough, I say, "No," and if he asks me whether 10s. is enough, I say, "No." I should have great difficulty in giving a precise answer to any specific sum that the hon. Member might put to me. All of us surely, recognising the trials and the burdens that come upon the shoulders of the wife of the unemployed man, who has the burden perhaps more than he has the burden, and who has the daily and distressing experience of seeing the children hungry, and the home perhaps broken up, would find it very difficult to name any particular sum that should be paid.
I have a question to put to the right hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. Wheatley). We have got our unemployed man, who will get 17s. a week under the new Bill, and his wife will get 9s. That makes 26s. With three dependent children, each getting 2s. a week, that is 6s., which comes to 32s. a week. That is the proposal in the Bill. In the West Country, unfortunately, our wages are low. The payment that is being made upon the roads for the roadmen in the West Country is 32s. 8d. net, the minimum wage. I condemn such wages, but they are a fact, and from 32s. 8d. there is some deduction for the man having to stand off during wet time, representing, I believe, about three-quarters of a day in the week. Is there to be any regard at all to the wage that is being paid? I want the right hon. Member for Shettleston to address himself to that question.
I find, myself, that there is some objection on the part of men who are themselves working that they should be working under these conditions and that a larger wage might be paid to those who are unemployed. It is laid down by the Blanesburgh Committee that there must be some regard to the wages that are being paid, and while undoubtedly wages should be raised, is it a part of the policy of hon. and right hon. Members on the back benches opposite that we should use the unemployment benefit as machinery for raising wages? Is it their policy that, by the forcing up of the unemployment benefit by adding 1s. here and 1s. there, that should be a means of raising the wages paid elsewhere? They will see the difficulty in which we are placed when that question is put to us by the hon. Member for Bridgeton.
I have a great feeling of respect and admiration for the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) and his friends. After all, he has at least come before this Committee and put forward this Amendment, which is really equivalent to what practically every hon. Member opposite put in his election address, namely, work or maintenance. We have the hon. Member suggesting that if the Government cannot find work for the people, the least they can do is to pay a man's wife a higher wage than is put down in this Bill; and I have the greatest admiration for him. I shall scrutinise with very great care the names of those hon. Members opposite who go into the Lobby against him, to see whether the opinions which they record in the Lobby correspond with the opinions which they put in their election addresses. I found that work or maintenance was perfectly clearly put before the electors in my own Division, and I believe it was put before the electors in every other Division in the country; and I think the hon. Member for Bridgeton is right to come before us to-day and to say that what his party is advocating should be supported by his own Government. For that reason, I shall be very interested to watch this Division.
I desire to intervene for a moment, as a supporter of the Government and as one who will continue to support the Government, to urge the Minister to accept this Amendment. I am not urging that because I believe that an extra 1s. going into the homes of the unemployed will create a new heaven and a new earth. I do not believe that 20s. for a man or 10s. for a woman is adequate in the circumstances, but I realise and appreciate that the Minister of Labour is in a very difficult situation. She has so much money to spend, and beyond that figure I presume the iron Chancellor of the Exchequer will not permit her to go; but I believe we should re-examine the whole situation. The Bill is built on a financial basis which, I believe, will easily cover this small amount of expenditure. It is financed upon an assumption that we are going to have in this country 1,200,000 unemployed people. I believe that that figure is far in excess of anything like the normal condition that will obtain in this country during the next few months.
I know that some hon. Members on this side and the majority of those opposite are decrying the efforts of the present Government to put in hand schemes of work which will find employment for a vast number of people. I do not share that view. I believe that the schemes that are now in hand and in process of preparation will, in a very short time, bring necessary and desirable work to a large number of men and women who at present are denied the opportunity of working. Depite the sneers of my friends on the other side of the Committee, I am firmly convinced that, as far as trade and unemployment is concerned, this country has turned the corner. This afternoon I had the privilege of attending a conference with people in charge of the transport and export of coal from the northeast coast of England, and I was very glad to hear that this year the export of coal from that part of the country is 10 per cent. greater than the last half year. It shows that we are getting the markets, and I am satisfied that money will come to the workers as a result of the improved trade. It is because of that that I believe the Minister will be able to make the financial provision to meet a small additional payment of this kind, and as a loyal supporter of the Government, I urge them to accept this Amendment.
The hon. Member for Oldham (Mr. J. Wilson) favoured us with a speech which I submit does not differ substantially from several speeches that we have heard from the late Minister of Labour when he was tendering to the House his apologia for the failure of the Government. He repeatedly told us that if you could keep certain elements in the country quiet, cemented the Melchett-Turner industrial conference, and did not do anything that would frighten off that very timid spirit whose head appeared on the horizon—the spirit of prosperity— all would be well. My interests personally are all with national prosperity, and I am sure that none of my hon. Friends have any desire to frighten that spirit of prosperity which my good Friend the Member for Oldham, with a spiritualistic endowment, appears to see on the horizon. I am sure that we are glad to have the message. Therefore, he says in effect, why worry about this Amendment, because it is a small sum? The woman whose husband is unemployed, however, can appreciate the difference involved, much more than the hon. Member and myself. The hon. Member says, "Trust the Government, who are going to solve this problem of unemployment, for they have wonderful schemes which, if given time, will be successful." That is very nice, and I like to hear such speeches, but I want to come down to facts. What are the facts? We have in society to-day a contest going on between the capitalists and the Lord Privy Seal as to whether the capitalists shall put men out of work quicker than the Lord Privy Seal can put them in.
The right hon. Member is entitled to use an argument as a direct illustration, but my difficulty over and over again is that, in allowing an illustration to be made, the illustration often becomes the main issue, and I must therefore ask he right hon. Gentleman not to pursue that illustration too far.
There is no danger of my prolonging the argument, further than to reply to a point raised by the hon. Gentleman. My point is that in this contest up till now the Lord Privy Seal is 160,000 in arrear. Capitalism is leading by 160,000, taking the figures only from the beginning of June. You have that number more on the live register than when the present Government came into office. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] Let me make it clear that I do not agree with the spirit that creates the applause on the other side of the Committee. I do not believe that that is the fault of the Lord Privy Seal. Hon. Members opposite may think that it is, but they have been where the Lord Privy Seal is now, and they have failed, and the Conservatives have failed. You have all failed. There are 160,000 additional unemployed. The question before us is whether we will give a dependant wife of the unemployed man 10s. or 9s., and the representative of this wonderfully wealthy country, in the person of the Minister of Labour, gets up in the Committee and says that the country cannot afford to give this woman 10s. I do not agree with that, for many reasons, which I more or less gave yesterday, but the hon. Member for Bodmin (Mr. Foot) put some questions to me. He began by saying that he agreed that 9s. a week is not enough, and that he would have gone further.
I appreciate the sentiment and feelings of the hon. Member, but he said that there was a limitation. It appears that in the west country there is a state of affairs in which a person in employment with a wife and three children receives only 32s. 8d. a week, from which there falls to be made certain deductions. Therefore, if you give 32s. a week to a man who is unemployed, and if he can only get 32s. 8d. when he is off the Employment Exchange and has the luxury of employment, how can you run your system with that competition between low wages in employment and comparatively high wages in unemployment? I have a good deal of sympathy with the hon. Member, but I suggest that he is looking at it from the wrong end. He has admitted practically that the amount that is demanded here is insufficient for a decent standard of human existence. I put this to the hon. Member. Believing that that is a shocking standard of existence, why should he defend it, whether it be paid for unemployment or for work? Does he not see that the fact that a man is getting only 32s. 8d. for employment is due to the pressure of starvation or to the pressure of a low standard of income coming from the other side? You put a man out of employment; you take the rational view that it is undesirable to starve him absolutely, and you give him maintenance of a kind, but refuse to give him adequate maintenance. You give him a maintenance that makes him feel that he is in an extraordinarily suffering condition. By doing that you press him into the position of being able to accept 32s. 8d., which is the highest standard of wage you can get in the locality.
Does my hon. Friend, who made such a sympathetic speech, think that the Committee should support a scale that will enable people in the West Country to continue to pay only 32s. a week for the maintenance of five persons, or does he think that it is the duty of the Committee, not merely as politicians, but as men and women who want to do justice to the employers in this country who want to pay a living wage, to use their influence in this House to make it more difficult to get workers at 32s. 8d.? I submit that he will be doing a service, not merely to the unemployed man but to the man in work, by voting for this Amendment, and using it as a lever to compel the man who is paying 32s. 8d. to pay more than 32s. 8d. I can scarcely trust myself to analyse the conditions in which people are compelled to live who have only 32s. 8d. a week for five persons.
The right hon. Gentleman will know that in the agricultural districts 32s. 8d. is something like the wage and that it is very often in excess of the wage.
The hon. Gentleman admits, as we admit, that this is not a living wage. I hope that there is not a Member of this House who would pay a worker 32s. 8d. and ask him to keep a wife and three children. It cannot be done. I have been chairman of a hospital committee, whose duty it was to look after sick children, and apart altogether from any medical treatment or attendance, we could not bring our expenditure approximately to approach 32s. 8d. per week. Nobody can do it. You are asking these men and women to do the impossible. It is only the grace of God that prevents our people from deterioration, but if you ask people to live on this miserable allowance, you can only expect deterioration. The hon. Member for South-East Southwark (Mr. Naylor) was the only Member on this side of the House who said that he was prepared to vote with the Government, but even he said that the Government was wrong. He appealed to the representative of the Government, as we are appealing, to yield the concession which was asked for in the Amendment. The hon. Member proceeded to give the customary speech of an opponent of the working class: "We are bursting with sympathy for the poor. If we could but help the poor! But if the poor only appreciated our troubles they would not be so insistent. We have to choose between going into the Lobby against the Government, and asking an unemployed man's wife to continue to exist on 9s. a week." If the scale of benefit could be paid out in sympathy, we should have a unanimous Committee, but when it comes to the question of hard cash we differ. Unfortunately, the sympathy of the hon. Member will not be accepted by the grocers and the butchers for the goods which they supply to the unemployed. They want hard shillings. Sym-path is very good and very generous, but it is something which hon. Members on the other side, who are in great financial interests, know does not go very far in purchasing power in the markets.
I want now to say a word to the Conservatives. I should have liked the Conservative party to rise and say why they will oppose this Amendment, because I am assuming that they are going to act loyally towards the Government and go into the Lobby in opposition to the Amendment. I should have liked to listen to a Member of the Conservative party explaining what is the real objection to the Amendment. Do they really believe that a woman can be maintained on 9s. a week? Is there a Member there who believes that a wife can be maintained on 9s. a week? Certainly not. They would be ashamed to get up and say so. If, as my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) whispers to me, a wife could be maintained on 9s. a week, there would be no justification for a widower or a bachelor to be a Member of this House. Everybody knows she cannot be maintained on 9s. a week. That sum would not keep a woman in hair oil, would not pay for face cream or for any of the little luxuries which women use to assist Nature in making a better representation of themselves in the eyes of the opposite sex. To talk about 9s. a week for the maintenance of a woman is horrible. You can only think of it when she is not your woman, when she is somebody detached from you, when she is somebody who is not a member of your family. It is only then you can think of 9s. a week in terms of the maintenance of a woman.
People may say, "Why do you not propose more?" I can assure hon. Members that if an Amendment is moved to the Amendment asking us to accept more on behalf of the unemployed, there will be no more enthusiastic supporters of it in the Lobby than the Members who sit on the Bench which I occupy now. I suppose it is hopeless to appeal to the Government. We were told yesterday that we were dealing with a steel-hearted Labour Minister and an iron Chancellor of the Exchequer, and when the working class are up against that formidable combination then I am afraid their case is pretty hopeless. But I would join my voice to the appeal which has been already made that the Government should seriously consider yielding on this small issue. If I really thought that the Labour Minister were personally opposed to this proposal, I would regret the day when a woman entered public life. I had looked forward to the time when women, by their presence in public life, would lend a softening influence to our treatment of human beings. There is no evidence of it to-day, and I am sorry for it, deeply sorry, because I have not yet lost my faith in women. For the honour and reputation of the sex I hope that there is not a woman in this House who will go into the Lobby against this Amendment. I hope that every woman in the House will either support us in the Lobby or, at any rate, do sufficient justice to her sex to abstain from voting against such a reasonable proposal.
I appreciate that there may be people in this House who would like to support us, but, for one reason or another, find themselves in a position where they must desert the poor, unemployed section of the workers. I am glad there are at least a score of us who are prepared to present our breasts to the firing legions and to suffer whatever penalties are to be imposed upon us for preaching in this House and acting in this House exactly as we did to the unemployed workers in May of the present year.
I want to point out that in the course of his very eloquent speech, the right hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. Wheatley) has really been getting a long way away from the facts, I do not mean the facts of unemployment or the facts of what people can live on, but the facts that are presented to both sections of the Opposition by the Government of the day. With all his ability the right hon. Gentleman cannot reconstruct the whole of society by an Amendment of this kind, and therefore his answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Bodmin (Mr. Foot) was not really adequate. We are in a situation which is created not only by all those economic comparisons between relief and wages, but also by the limits to which the Chancellor of the Exchequer is prepared to go It is laid down for us from the beginning in this Bill. We were told there was a certain amount of money available, and that the Government could not go beyond that. That is the decision of the Government after going into the matter in relation to all the financial necessities of the country, and many of us on these benches who felt some doubt about the money which we have already spent.—and we have already spent some money—feel those doubts considerably in view of that fact. We feel that as soon as we have spent one lot of money there is so much less to be spent on other matters, and personally I would have preferred to see the order of the Clauses in this Bill rearranged, so that we might have considered this most excellent Amendment on its merits before we considered some other forms of expenditure which I, for one, do not think are so important and necessary or urgent. But we have to face the situation as it is.
With all respect, I would ask my senior colleague in the representation of East Middlesbrough (Miss Wilkinson) whether by her speech she is inviting me to go into the Lobby against her Government on this proposal? I do not think she can be. Her eloquent speech was an appeal not to the Opposition but to her own Government and as that appeal is turned down, as the Minister, in conjunction with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, says there is no more money for this purpose, how can any section of the Opposition alter that position? The position has been made for us and we have got to face it. Some of us if we had had the drafting of this Bill—I will not say we would have drafted a better Bill—would have made a different distribution of the money. We might have differed among ourselves—I dare say any party would—as to the best way in which the money could be spent. But this situation has been made for us, and it really is not carrying the cause of the unemployed very much further to get up on Clause after Clause and move an addition to this and an addition to that, well knowing that the whole scheme of the Bill has been laid down beforehand and that we cannot do it without wrecking the whole scheme which has been put before us.
We wish to get on and to make progress, and we ought not to be detained over attempts at the impossible. In future Clauses matters are coming up where amendment will be really possible, where Amendments can be accepted within the terms of what the Government are ready to do, and we should spend our time more profitably by devoting ourselves to those matters. I join in every word that was said by my hon. colleague for Middlesbrough in her plea that this is one of the most worthy ways in which the money could be spent, but since it has been refused, and refused in advance, I hope we shall be allowed to get on with other matters.
I would like to re-enforce what the hon. Member for West Middlesbrough (Mr. Griffith) has said as to there being other matters of great importance for discussion and to join him in his hope that we shall not be delayed unduly long by this perennial struggle between the head and the heart. Prom the speeches we have heard, it is quite clear that the heart is running away with certain Members on the Socialist Benches. What we all admire in the right hon. Lady the Minister of Labour is that she has both head and heart. It seems to disappoint the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Shettleston (Mr. Wheatley) to find she has got a head at all. He apparently thinks those of her sex should have only heart. We all know, as well as the right hon. Gentleman, the difficult circumstances in which these unfortunate people find themselves. He asks "Can a woman be maintained for 9s. a week?" and embroiders the picture which can be conjured up; but that is not the position we are called upon to discuss. We are asked to discuss a Clause in an Unem-
ployment Insurance Bill, and we feel very strongly that some connection with insurance must be maintained. There must be some connection between benefits and contributions, there must be some relation between the expenditure of the fund and the expenditure that will ultimately fall on the Exchequer.
It is no good for the Committee to pass Amendments involving nearly £1,000,000 when we know that the ultimate result would be to bring about the hopeless bankruptcy of the Insurance Fund and also gravely to embarrass our national finances. Every hon. Member knows that nothing is easier than to make an appeal to increase certain allowances by 1s. here, 6d. there and 2s. somewhere else—all for the most deserving cases; but we must not forget that it is the constant drip of water which wears away the stone; and in this Measure, as in any other Measure, the country has got to face up to the financial implications of it. Everybody has the most complete sympathy with the class of persons dealt with in this Amendment, but as Members of this House we have to look to the wider issue. Rather than give increased benefits here and there, we should devote our attention to the problem of seeing that we do not fall into national bankruptcy, and make it possible for jobs to be found for those who are now out of work.
rose in her place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
Question put, "That the Question be now put."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 293; Noes, 168.
Division No. 72.] AYES. [6.44 p.m. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Benson, G. Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland) Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Bentham, Dr. Ethel Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel (Norfolk, N.) Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale) Caine, Derwent Hall- Aitchison, Rt. Hon. Craigie M. Birkett, W. Norman Cameron, A. G. Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro') Blindell, James Cape, Thomas Alpass, J. H. Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.) Ammon, Charles George Bowen, J. W. Charleton, H. C. Angell, Norman Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Chater, Daniel Arnott, John Broad, Francis Alfred Cluse, W. S. Aske, Sir Robert Brockway, A. Fenner Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Attlee, Clement Richard Bromfield, William Cocks, Frederick Seymour Ayles, Walter Bromley, J. Compton, Joseph Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Brooke, W. Cove, William G. Barnes, Alfred John Brothers, M. Daggar, George Batey, Joseph Brown, C. W. E. (Notts. Mansfield) Dallas, George Beckett, John (Camberwell, Peckham) Brown, Ernest (Leith) Davies, E. C. (Montgomery) Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Bennett, Captain E.N.(Cardiff, Central) Brown, W. J. (Wolverhampton, West) Day, Harry Bennett, William (Battersea, South) Burgess, F. G. Denman, Hon. R. D. Dickson, T. Lawrence, Susan Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) Dudgeon, Major C. R. Lawrie, Hugh Hardey (Stalybridge) Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford) Dukes, C. Lawson, John James Romeril, H. G. Duncan, Charles Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle) Rosbotham, D. S. T. Ede, James Chuter Leach, W. Rowson, Guy Edge, Sir William Lee, Frank (Derby, N. E.) Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter Edmunds, J. E. Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern) Salter, Dr. Alfred Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Lees, J. Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen) Edwards, E. (Morpeth) Lewis, T. (Southampton) Samuel, H. W. (Swansea, West) Egan, W. H. Lindley, Fred W. Sanders, W. S. England, Colonel A. Lloyd, C. Ellis Sandham, E. Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) Longbottom, A. W. Sawyer, G. F. Foot, Isaac Longden, F. Scurr, John Freeman, Peter Lovat-Fraser, J. A. Sexton, James Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) Lowth, Thomas Shakespeare, Geoffrey H. Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.) Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd (Car'vn) MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham) Sherwood, G. H. Gibbins, Joseph Macdonald, Sir M. (Inverness) Shield, George William Gill T. H. McElwee, A. Shillaker, J. F. Gillett, George M. McEntee, V. L. Shinwell, E. Glassey, A. E. Mackinder, W. Simmons, C. J. Gosling, Harry McKinlay, A. Simon, E. D. (Manch'ter, Withington) Gossling, A. G. Maclean, Sir Donald (Cornwall, N.) Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Gould, F. Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Sinclair, Sir A. (Caithness) Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) MacNeill-Weir, L. Sinkinson, George Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) McShane, John James Sitch, Charles H. Gray, Milner Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Smith, Alfred (Sunderland) Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne) Mander, Geoffrey le M. Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Mansfield, W. Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) Griffith. F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.) March, S. Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Marcus, M. Smith, Tom (Pontefract) Groves, Thomas E. Mathers, George Smith, W. R. (Norwich) Grundy, Thomas W. Matters, L. W. Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Melville, Sir James Snowden, Thomas (Accrington) Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Messer, Fred Sorensen, R. Hall, Capt. W. P. (Portsmouth, C.) Middleton, G. Spero, Dr. G. E. Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn) Millar, J. D. Stamford, Thomas W. Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Zetland) Mills, J. E. Strauss, G. R. Harbord, A. Milner, J. Sullivan, J. Hardie, George D. Morgan, Dr. H. B. Sutton, J. E. Harris, Percy A. Morley, Ralph Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln) Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh) Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.) Hastings, Dr. Somerville Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South) Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby) Haycock, A. W. Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.) Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Hayday, Arthur Mort, D. L. Thurtle, Ernest Hayes, John Henry Moses, J. J. H. Tillett, Ben Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent) Tinker, John Joseph Henderson, Arthur, junr. (Cardiff, S.) Mosley, Sir Oswald (Smethwick) Toole, Joseph Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) Muff, G. Tout, W. J. Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) Muggeridge, H. T. Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Herriotts, J. Murnin, Hugh Turner, B. Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth) Nathan, Major H. L. Vaughan, D. J. Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Naylor. T. E. Viant, S. P. Hoffman, P. C. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Walker, J. Hopkin, Daniel Noel Baker, P. J. Wallace, H. W. Horrabin, J. F. Oldfield, J. R. Wallhead, Richard C. Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston) Watkins, F. C. Hunter, Dr. Joseph Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley) Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R. Owen, Major G. (Carnarvon) Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Isaacs, George Palin, John Henry Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Palmer, E. T. Wellock, Wilfred John, William (Rhondda, West) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Welsh, James (Paisley) Jones, F. Llewellyn- (Flint) Perry, S. F. Welsh, James C. (Coatbridge) Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. West, F. R. Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne) Phillips, Dr. Marion White, H. G. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Picton-Turbervill, Edith Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood) Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. Pole, Major D. G. Wilkinson, Ellen C. Jowitt, Rt. Hon. Sir W. A. Potts, John S. Williams, David (Swansea, East) Kelly, W. T. Price, M. P. Williams Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Kennedy, Thomas Pybus, Percy John Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Quibell, D. J. K. Wilson, J. (Oldham) Kinley, J. Ramsay, T. B. Wilson Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Knight, Holford Rathbone, Eleanor Winterton, G. E.(Leicester, Loughb'gh) Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton) Raynes, W. R. Wise, E. F. Lang, Gordon Richards, R. Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff) Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Wright. W. (Rutherglen) Lathan, G. Riley, Ben (Dewsbury) Young, R. S. (Islington, North) Law, Albert (Bolton) Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees) Law, A. (Rosendale) Ritson, J. TELLERS FOR THE AYES — Mr. Paling and Mr. Whiteley. NOES. Albery, Irving James Astor, Viscountess Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet) Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Atholl, Duchess of Balniel, Lord Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley) Bellairs, Commander Carlyon
Berry, Sir George Glyn, Major R. G. C. Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William Bevan, S. J. (Holborn) Grace, John Peake, Capt. Osbert Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Power, Sir John Cecil Bird, Ernest Roy Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Pownall, Sir Assheton Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter Purbrick, R. Boyce, H. L. Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Ramsbotham, H. Bracken, B. Gunston, Captain D. W. Rawson, Sir Cooper Braithwaite, Major A. N. Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. Reid, David D. (County Down) Brass, Captain Sir William Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Remer, John R. Briscoe, Richard George Hanbury, C. Rentoul, Sir Gervais S. Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Buchan, John Hartington, Marquess of. Ross, Major Ronald D. Buckingham, Sir H. Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. Butler, R. A. Haslam, Henry C. Salmon, Major I. Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Carver, Major W. H. Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Castle Stewart, Earl of Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart Cautley, Sir Henry S. Herbert, S.(York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by) Savery, S. S. Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller Scrymgeour, E. Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.) Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.) Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston) Hore-Belisha, Leslie Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Chapman, Sir S. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Smith-Carington, Neville W. Christie, J. A. Hurd, Percy A. Smithers, Waldron Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Iveagh, Countess of Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Cockerill, Brig-General Sir George James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Southby, Commander A. R. J. Colfox, Major William Philip Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Colville, Major D. J. Kedward, R. M. (Kent, Ashford) Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland) Courtauld, Major J. S. Kindersley, Major G. M. Stuart, J. C. (Moray and Nairn) Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. Knox, Sir Alfred Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F. Cranbourne, Viscount Lamb, Sir J. Q. Thomson, Sir F. Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Titchfield, Major the Marquess of Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro) Law, Sir Alfred (Derby, High Peak) Todd, Capt. A. J. Croom-Johnson, R. P. Leighton, Major B. E. P. Train, J. Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Long, Major Eric Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford) Lymington, Viscount Turton, Robert Hugh Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon Davies, Dr. Vernon Macquisten, F. A. Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey) Duckworth, G. A. V. Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on Hull) Dugdale, Capt. T. L. Makins, Brigadier-General E. Warrender, Sir Victor Eden, Captain Anthony Margesson, Captain H. D. Waterhouse, Captain Charles Edmondson, Major A. J. Marjoribanks, E. C. Wayland, Sir William A. Elliot, Major Walter E. Meller, R. J. Wells, Sydney R. Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) Mitchell-Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.) Everard, W. Lindsay Mond, Hon. Henry Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Falle, Sir Bertram G. Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Ferguson, Sir John Moore, Sir Newton J. (Richmond) Withers, Sir John James Fermoy, Lord Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount Fison, F. G. Clavering Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury) Womersley, W. J. Ford, Sir P. J. Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester) Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Muirhead, A. J. Galbraith, J. F. W. Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley) O'Neill, Sir H. Captain Sir George Bowyer and Sir George Penny.
Question put accordingly, "That the word 'nine' stand part of the Clause."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 229; Noes, 28.
Division No. 73.] AYES. [6.55 p.m. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Bromfield, William Day, Harry Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Bromley, J. Denman, Hon. R. D. Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Brooke, W. Dickson, T. Aitchison, Rt. Hon. Craigie M. Brothers, M. Dukes, C. Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro'). Brown, C. W. E. (Notts, Mansfield) Duncan, Charles Alpass, J. H. Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Ede, James Chuter Ammon, Charles George Burgess, F. G. Edmunds, J. E. Angell, Norman Butt, Sir Alfred Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Arnott, John Buxton, C. R. (Yorks, W. R. Elland) Edwards, E. (Morpeth) Attlee, Clement Richard Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel (Norfolk, N.) Egan, W. H. Ayles, Walter Cameron, A. G. Freeman, Peter Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Cape, Thomas Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) Barnes, Alfred John Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.) Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.) Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood Cautley, Sir Henry S. Gibbins, Joseph Bennett, Captain E. N. (Cardiff, Central) Charleton, H. C. Gill, T. H. Bennett, William (Battersea, South) Chater, Daniel Gillett, George M. Benson, G. Cluse, W. S. Gosling, Harry Bentham, Dr. Ethel Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Gossling, A. G. Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale) Cocks, Frederick Seymour Gould, F. Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret Compton, Joseph Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Bowen, J. W. Daggar, George Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Dallas, George Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Broad, Francis Alfred Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Malone, C. L' Estrange (N'thampton) Sherwood, G. H. Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Mansfield, W. Shield, George William Groves, Thomas E. March, S. Shillaker, J. F. Grundy, Thomas W. Marcus, M. Shinwell, E. Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Marley, J. Simmons, C. J. Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Mathers, George Sinkinson, George Hall, Capt. W. P. (Portsmouth, C.) Matters, L. W. Sitch, Charles H. Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn) Melville, Sir James Smith, Alfred (Sunderland) Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Messer, Fred Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) Hastings, Dr. Somerville Middleton, G. Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) Hayday, Arthur Mills, J. E. Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Hayes, John Henry Milner, J. Smith, Tom (Pontefract) Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Morley, Ralph Smith, W. R. (Norwich) Henderson, Arthur, junr. (Cardiff, S.) Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South) Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.) Snowden, Thomas (Accrington) Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) Mort, D. L. Sorensen, R. Herriotts, J. Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent) Spero, Dr. G. E. Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth) Mosley, Sir Oswald (Smethwick) Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Muff, G. Strauss, G. R. Hoffman, P. C. Muggeridge, H. T. Sullivan, J. Hopkin, Daniel Murnin, Hugh Sutton, J. E. Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) Naylor, T. E. Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln) Isaacs, George Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.) Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Noel Baker, P. J. Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby) John, William (Rhondda, West) Oldfield, J. R. Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston) Thurtle, Ernest Jowitt, Rt. Hon. Sir W. A. Palin, John Henry Tillett, Ben Kennedy, Thomas Palmer, E. T. Tinker, John Joseph Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Toole, Joseph Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton) Perry, S. F. Tout, W. J. Lang, Gordon Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George Phillips, Dr. Marion Turner, B. Lathan, G. Picton-Turbervill, Edith Vaughan, D. J. Law, Albert (Bolton) Pole, Major D. G. Viant, S. p. Law, A. (Rosendale) Price, M. P. Walker, J. Lawrence, Susan Quibell, D. J. K. Wallace, H. W. Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge) Raynes, W. R. Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) Lawson, John James Richards, R. Watkins, F. C. Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Watson, w. M. (Dunfermline) Leach, W. Riley, Ben (Dewsbury) Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Lee, Frank (Derby, N. E.) Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees) Wellock, Wilfred Lees, J. Ritson, J. Welsh, James (Paisley) Lewis, T. (Southampton) Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) Welsh, James C. (Coatbridge) Lloyd, C. Ellis Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs, Stretford) West, F. R. Longbottom, A. W. Romeril, H. G. Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood) Lovat-Fraser, J. A. Rosbotham, D. S. T. Williams, David (Swansea, East) Lowth, Thomas Rowson, Guy Williams Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) Salter, Dr. Alfred Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham) Samuel, H. W. (Swansea, West) Wilson, J. (Oldham) McElwee, A. Sanders, W. S. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) McEntee, V. L. Sawyer, G. F. Wright, W. (Rutherglen) Mackinder, W. Scurr, John Young, R. S. (Islington, North) MacNeill-Weir, L. Sexton, James McShane, John James Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) TELLERS FOR THE AYES— Mr. Paling and Mr. Whiteley. NOES. Batey, Joseph Hore-Belisha, Leslie Morgan, Dr. H. B. Beckett, John (Camberwell, Peckham) Horrabin, J. F. Potts, John S. Brockway, A. Fenner Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Sandham, E. Brown, W. J. (Wolverhampton, West) Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. Scrymgeour, E. Buchanan, G. Kelly, W. T. Shakespeare, Geoffrey H. Cove, William G. Kirkwood, D. Stephen, Campbell Devlin, Joseph Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern) Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. Forgan, Dr. Robert Lindley, Fred W. Wilkinson, Ellen C. Harris, Percy A. Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Haycock, A. W. Maxton, James TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Mr. Kinley and Mr. Wallhead.
I beg to move, in page 2, line 9, at the end, to insert the words: "and the increase in respect of children shall be five shillings instead of two shillings in respect of each child."
In rising to move this Amendment, which seeks to raise the allowance to children of unemployed workers from two shillings to five shillings, I want to go directly to the point of dispute so far as I have been able to understand it. I do not propose to waste my time in talking about who is sympathetic and who is not sympathetic to the unemployed. I am prepared to accept the word of hon. Members from all parts of the House that they are genuinely concerned to do all that is possible to promote the interests of the unemployed worker and that there is a real and genuine cleavage of opinion when we come to consider whether or not the present Amendment is within the bounds of financial possibility. I remember the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), speaking on the Second Reading, stating that, if one takes any detailed improvement on its own merits, it is almost impossible to state a case against it, but that, in order to be fair, it was essential that one should take the sum total that we intend to expend on improvements, and on that basis only could we decide whether the particular improvements could be brought in or not.
I want to remind the Committee that the finance involved in raising the children's allowances to five shillings would be approximately £4,500,000, that 600,000 children are involved, and that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has informed us that for the next financial year he has additional commitments to the extent of almost £19,000,000. I remember during the election period and both before and after it hearing, not irresponsible Members on these benches, but the leaders on these benches outlining the financial policy of our party and stating that, if entrusted with the Government of this country, we intended to raise the necessary funds for necessary improvements by means of a Surtax, taxation on land values, increased Death Duties and increased Super-tax. I have heard many controversies as to whether the Surtax would raise £40,000,000 or £70,000,000. I submit, therefore, that, in asking for this Amendment to be seriously considered, Members should not set out with closed minds and closed hearts, but should do the duty which we all have in this House of trying to judge a case on its merits and with open minds and not decide the issue before it is put before us. I submit that in view of the financial policy of this party, even though the Chancellor of the Exchequer were committed to £90,000,000, there is nothing financially impossible in asking the Committee to give its support to the Amendment which I am now submitting. I very much hope that my figures are wrong, or that, if the case is as stated, other Members will rise and do what has not yet been done in any Debate dealing with these Amendments, prove to us, not by generalities, but by facts and figures why we cannot have the Amendments for which we are asking.
Granted that we can overcome the financial obstacles, next we are told that we must not be in too great a hurry, because, after all, the Bill, as it stands, is merely an instalment, and that in due time we shall have further instalments. I would remind the Committee that the provisions of the Bill do not begin to operate until 13th March, that they will control the fate of the unemployed worker's home for at least one year after 13th March, and that, unless something is done to bring up to date the obsolete machinery of this House. I doubt whether it will not be found to be even longer than that before we can get on with the future instalments of the Measure. On these two points alone we have an excellent case for asking the support of the Committee for this Amendment. I wish to remind the Committee also, that, if this Amendment were conceded in addition to the two shillings which we were seeking to give to the unemployed man's wife, it would mean that the income of a family—husband, wife, and three children—would amount to 41s. a week. I have in my hand a book written by the hon. Member for Withington (Mr. E. D. Simon), and I am indebted to him because, in a very convenient form, he provides me with a table drawn up by Professor A. L. Bowley in seeking to ascertain the bare physical subsistence on which a. family can exist. He makes his figure 35s. 5d. If I add the rent and taxes of a slum clearance house—that is 8s. 6d.—I bring the total to 43s. 11d. I am pointing out that even making these allowances to the unemployed worker, he is still going to be left 2s. 11d. below the bare physical subsistence. If apology be needed, it ought to be for the inadequacy of the demands which we are now making rather than that we are making any unnecessary claims. May I read what the comments of the hon. Member for Withington were: I hope I am going to have the support of the hon. Member in my Amendment. I apologise to him that circumstances should be such that I am asking for something below even bare physical subsistence, but I hope that will be the answer to the hon. and gallant Member for Gainsborough (Captain Crookshank) who suggested that we on these benches are being led by our hearts and not by our heads. We are allowing our heads to have sufficient say in the matter to bring our demands down to this degree. I feel that I have every reason to expect a very large measure of support for this Amendment, because I find that the hon. Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Booth by) is going to restore Scotland by giving the school children a glass of milk. In a recent speech, he stated that, if we wanted the children of Scotland to be healthy, they would have to be given a glass of milk. I notice that the hon. and Gallant Member for Kelvingrove (Major Elliot) was also concerned to provide children with milk. I do not know whether this is the Scottish conscience of my two colleagues being haunted by the acts of the late Minister of Health; but, whatever the reason, I welcome the support that indirectly they are giving by their admission that even the bare physical necessities of the children are not being attended to as they ought to be. I suggest that here in this Amendment is the opportunity to call the bluff of those who are in earnest in providing those necessities for the children and those who merely want to shelter themselves behind a veil of sentimental twaddle and to do nothing of the kind.
One further argument. I do not think it is necessary to support an Amendment like this on anything more than its own stark merits—the fact that there is suffering, that there is actual starvation, that there is malnutrition, recognised by the Medical Officers of Health in thousands and thousands of homes, and that no members of this Committee would support their own children on this miserable sum for which we are asking. I believe that in pressing for this Amendment I am also asking for a very sound piece of economic work to be undertaken by the Committee. I believe that in adding to the purchasing power of the unemployed man's home we are adding to our own home market and are making a definite contribution to employment; and I would like to regard the Amendment as the first step in wholesale family allowances for all underpaid workers, in which category I would include the members even of this present Chamber. But in case there should be those who are still carrying on the arguments that we heard in the earlier Debates, to the effect that Members on these benches were engaged on some insurrection, some unreasonable demand, I am glad to say that I have even the moral support of the First Commissioner of Works—I see he is1 now in his place—and of no less than nine members of the present Labour Government. I wish I knew them all by their constituencies so that I might read the list to the House. On 9th July, 1924, in supporting an Amendment similar to this, the First Commissioner of Works said:
I feel sure that the Committee on all sides will be rather glad that this Amendment was put down, in that it has enabled them to have the rather delightful experience of the speech to which we have just listened. The position I am in is simply that my shoulders have to bow a little lower. I have still to harden my heart and have to say that I cannot accept the Amendment. The Mover referred to the speech of the First Commissioner, who had said that there were such things as Supplementary Estimates. Alas! I have reached that point already. For the purpose of this Bill and of existing legislation we have to get a Supplementary Estimate before Christmas, and in view of that position it is quite impossible to add a further indebtedness of over £4,000,000.
I would direct the attention of the Committee to one particular aspect of the subject of Unemployment Insurance. In the past few days we have heard a good deal of what may be the effect upon the mind of the applicant for unemployment benefit—the psychological effect of giving the benefit to a young man or young woman. We have heard very little as to what the physical effect may be in withholding the benefit. I was much interested in listening to a speech delivered last week by the hon. and gallant Member for Kelvingrove (Major Elliot). He was addressing a much vaster assembly than this over the wireless. I would quote one or two words of his speech, because I came to regard him rather as a medical ally than a political opponent. The hon. and gallant Gentleman said: were made to cut down the allowance given by Poor Law authorities. My point is that these low benefits mean, ultimately, no economy, that they result, ultimately, in disease, and in expense in the treatment of disease which is preventible and ought to be prevented.
I suggest that hon. Members should study the reports of medical scientists, who are more and more coming to the conclusion that the food consumed by an individual is that individual's chief safeguard against disease. That has been illustrated by experiments, carried out by local authorities in England and Scotland during the last two or three years. The education authorities of Scotland have been giving an extra grant of milk to school-children, with the result that they have grown not only taller and healthier, but are found to be better able to stand up to common infectious diseases. I suggest that it is no economy to starve children and allow them to become sick so that they need medical treatment. What is true of the common or less dangerous diseases of childhood is equally true of another disease which we all dread—the disease of consumption. Hon. Members may tell me that consumption is a disease which is diminishing to a great extent. I should like to be able to agree with that view. Only a fortnight ago I read in an authoritative medical journal an editorial on this very subject of consumption.
We know that the power of the individual to resist the germ of consumption is the deciding factor whether or not that individual will contract the disease or succumb to it. Let us examine for a moment the case of an unfortunate man under treatment in a sanatorium. That man in a sanatorium gets really good food and fresh air. His body is enabled for the time to overcome the germ of disease, and he goes back to his home and endeavours to find a job in a labour market which is already crowded with physically healthy men. Very often such a man finds himself unemployed. He draws unemployment benefit, and what he gets he shares with his family. Very often, in Scotland at any rate, he shares not only the meagre income but a miserable single-room house or room-and-kitchen-house with his family. What he gets in benefit is 17s. for himself, 9s. for his wife—that is to be in the future— and 2s. for each child. The result is that he himself becomes under-nourished, and his children are under-nourished. Because he is under-nourished the disease germs get the better of him again. He goes on breathing and coughing into the atmosphere in which he and his family live. The youngsters, already undernourished, are unable to stand up against the attack.
By our penny-wise and pound-foolish political economics we are in that way preparing further candidates for the beds in our hospitals and sanatoria, and further inmates for premature graves in our cemeteries. The larger the income going into a home, the more unlikely will it be that the mother will do, as she has done in the past, stint and starve herself in order that the youngsters may get more. By her unselfishness the children may benefit, but the mother forgets that the child still unborn is being starved within her because she is starving herself. To all appearance the child of such a mother may be born perfectly fit and just as healthy as the infant of any other woman, but we know that such a child is born without having in its body that reserve store of vitamins which it requires to enable it to withstand disease. On the ground of public health I suggest that we are unwise in limiting the benefit to its present figure.
I confess to being a novice in the art of political prescribing. I do not know by what standard the scale was fixed. It is apparently an arbitrary scale laid down by a Committee. On what data did the Committee fix the scale? We doctors in prescribing medicines are accustomed to fix the dose nicely in proportion to its size and the age and condition of the patient. But here in this benefit we give the same dose whether the recipient is 14 days or 14 years old. All of a sudden it is found when the boy of 14 has become a year older, that three times as much is required, and at 18 years of age he receives seven times what he got at 14. I confess that I do not understand the rationale of this mode of prescribing. My hon. Friend the Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) said the other day that 2s. would barely provide the necessary milk for an infant. I know an old lady who lives alone, and is very much afraid of mice. In order to protect herself she maintains a cat. But that is not suffi- cient, and every night she freshly baits a mouse-trap with cheese. She tells me that at the end of the week she finds that the milk and cheese have cost her 2s. This is not a cat-and-mouse Bill. It is a Bill for the benefit of unemployed men whose children, to be properly nourished, require almost as large a sum as is required to feed a grown man or woman. The matter is to me of enormous importance. The report that I have mentioned and wish to quote states that consumption in the past has shown a steady fall, that the curve has become lower and lower but has now begun to rise again; and it continues: employed from suffering from preventable diseases.
I do not propose to delay the Committee more than a few moments to add just a word to this Debate. I should like first of all to congratulate the Mover of this Amendment on what I think was one of the finest speeches that have been made in the course of this Debate. I do not think that anybody could add a single word in support of the case which the hon. Lady put. I am reminded that the speech of the hon. Member who immediately preceded me was a maiden speech, and I should like to take the opportunity of congratulating him on the information which he gave us and upon the broad ground that he took in support of the Amendment. I am not going to make any merely sympathetic remarks which are not going to be followed up by direct political action and a vote in the Lobby, but I will tell my friends on the other side of the Committee what is my difficulty in the position in which we are placed at the present time. If you are going to pass these Measures, you have obviously got to supply the money with which to pay these benefits. Unfortunately, perhaps, I am not the Chancellor of the Exchequer, nor, perhaps equally unfortunately, are some Members on the other side Chancellors of the Exchequer. Perhaps, if they were, they might find that office has a wonderfully sobering influence, and that what you feel you can do easily when you have not the responsibility of finding the money you cannot do as easily when you have to bring in a Budget which will, by one form of taxation or another, provide the money that you want.
I am not going to attempt for a moment to detract from the case which has been made out for 5s. to maintain a child. No reasonable person could do that. But, if you are going to carry out these measures of social development and reform, there must be an element of justice as between all the classes in the community. I represent an agricultural Division where, in the areas around Biggleswade and Sandy, there are hundreds of workers who have no employment, and no likelihood of employment except on relief schemes which we are urging through various Departments in order to provide them with employment. Those schemes, when they are in full work will give them a maximum wage of 35s. Out of that wage, for rough work not performed under the nicest conditions, these people have to maintain their wives and children. We on this side of the House have been pressing the Ministry of Labour very hard to introduce an insurance scheme for agricultural workers, and the question I want to ask my hon. Friends opposite is, if we use up all the available money on this particular development, what chance are we going to stand of getting anything at all for the agricultural workers when we come forward with our insurance schemes for them? That is what prevents me from going into the Lobby in support of this Amendment.
I am absolutely in sympathy with the Mover of the Amendment in saying that, if some of these measures are carried out, it will be a great step towards relieving unemployment, because one of the essential ways of doing that is to raise the whole standard of living of the masses of the people. We want to urge upon responsible Ministers of the other side that they should move very much more swiftly than they are moving today in regard to productive schemes of work. I would go into the Lobby and back them in spending, not merely £4,500,000, but £40,000,000, or £50,000,000, or £100,000,000, in productive work that is going to add to the effective wealth of the community. As I have said, while I have the fullest possible sympathy with this Amendment, it is quite impossible for me to vote for it unless I can see some opportunity of raising the standard of a great section of the community whose need is equally great.
When I sat as a Liberal Member of the Opposition on the opposite benches above the Gangway, I moved several Amendments like that which has been so charmingly moved by my hon. Friend the Member for North Lanark (Miss Lee). When the Coalition Government introduced their first Unemployment Insurance Bill, I moved an Amendment to increase the allowance to the unemployed man's child, and I did so the next year and the year after that when amending Bills were brought in. Also, when I sat with the Liberals on this side below the Gangway in 1924, I voted in the same way against the Labour Government, although I joined the Labour party two years later. It would be strange if, with that record, I were not tempted to go into the Lobby to-day in support of my hon. Friend the Member for North Lanark, and the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for West Renfrew (Dr. Forgan) has increased the temptation. I am, however, going to resist that temptation, and in a sentence I will say why. I am going to resist it very reluctantly. In my constituency there are people just as poor as any in Scotland or in any other part of the country. When I go into the back streets, there is always a new generation of very young children, who always come and take me by the hand with their little soft, cold hands. I am very, very proud of those young children; they have been taught at their mother's knee that I have tried to help the people. These are the people for whom this Amendment seeks to provide something more, and, therefore, it will be understood that I resist very reluctantly the temptation to support it.
The former Chancellor of the Exchequer told us last year that he reckoned upon having a surplus of £5,000,000. So far, these is a deficit of £10,000,000, and it may be very much more, even upon the optimistic estimate of the late Chancellor of the Exchequer. As my hon. Friend the Member for West Renfrew has told us, the present Chancellor of the Exchequer's statement is that his commitments are very heavy indeed. Supposing that we were all to fall into this temptation which has been so very delightfully and persuasively put before us by my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton), what would happen? The Government would go out. It may not go out this time, but it must go out. One of my hon. Friends says that we shall come back, but we may not have an Election. There may be a Coalition formed of the two parties opposite, and another Coalition Government with a worse record—
I must ask the hon. and gallant Gentleman to keep to the Amendment.
I thank you, Mr. Young; I have finished my illustration—
Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman tell me what the last Government, if with all its vilenesses it came back—and I suppose it was the worst Government that could be put in— would do to protect the children, seeing that they protest against giving them an extra 2s. a week?
My hon. Friend has asked me a question which I will endeavour to answer. I do not agree that the last Government was as bad as the Coalition Government. I suffered under both—
I cannot allow a discussion of the relative merits of previous Governments.
It was not my fault; I was led away by the interruption of my hon. Friend the Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan). My hon. Friend the Member for West Renfrew says that the money can be found. How can it be found? I agree that it can be found by Super-tax, Death Duties, Surtax, and so on, but we have to allow the Government to ration out the available money which the Chancellor of the Exchequer can see. In these circumtances, however much we may dislike it, we are bound either to revolt and throw out the Government or to support them on a popular Amendment like this.
This is a very pathetic situation for a Labour Government. Time and again the right hon. Lady has said that she has to steel her heart against even the most modest proposal for advancement in expenditure. I submit, however, that, even if the Bill is endangered by a proposal of this kind, the Labour movement must stand by its position. The Labour movement is committed. The Labour party has proclaimed very definitely that something substantial will be done for these stricken people who are debarred from the opportunity of earning their livelihood. We must look at this matter seriously. I am confident that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, even with all the difficulties confronting him, is just as capable as, if not more capable than, the former Chancellor of the Exchequer, and he, as representing the Labour movement, is individually identified, as well as the party, with the definite undertaking that money shall be found for these essential interests of working-class people. To me it is deplorable that Labour Members should have to plead almost apologetically that the Government may be permitted to add just a little modicum of satisfaction so that the working people may see that we are really making an effort. If the Labour party is going to be hampered to such a point that the Labour Minister should have to steel her heart to a proposition of this kind, what is the Labour party going to have to do when it has to face far larger issues to which it is also committed? Keir Hardie, the founder of the Labour party, once said that if they had difficulties on certain issues, which are not before the House just now, they would never be able to face the job they are taking in hand at all.
It looks to me, from the evidence that has been presented regarding inconsistency between the party and individual Members of the party on the party's own obligations, there will be a slump in working-class feeling. There is disappointment and dissatisfaction and, however much there may be anger and rancour against those who have voted against the Government, that is a small matter for any of us individually to face either in the party or out of it. It is a far greater thing to face the country at an election, either shortly or later. The question whether the Labour party is to go out of office is a mere bagatelle contrasted with the agony and the misery that are prevalent in working-class homes. Some of us are having calls made upon us about which we only wish to say, in the most reasonable and fair way, that it is beyond us. We cannot manage it. We cannot do that which we feel would be necessary. We can only go a small way. You talk about the Chancellor of the Exchequer finding it difficult to meet emergencies. What then of those of us who have to face these individual appellants in their misery and in their agony saying, "What are we to do?" For a Labour Chancellor of the Exchequer to say, "We cannot do it; £4,500,000 is far beyond our reach," is an ignominious position, and those who are holding up the standard of consistency, and of their definite obligations as representing the party, are doing a great service to the Government, to the party and to the Labour movement by saying, "This is your duty; this is the way; walk ye herein." Whether you do it or not, we are going to walk herein.
I cannot give a silent vote for the Amendment without some explanation in regard to my own personal point of view. I realise that it is a much easier thing really to vote for the Amendment than against it. I have been not only chairman of a local employment committee but a member of an education authority and of a parish council for a number of years and I have been brought into very close contact with the children of parents who have been out of employment. I have been forced to the conclusion that 2s. per week for the maintenance of a child is well below the poverty line. I do not want to stress the point from the humanitarian aspect at all, because that has already been done, but I should like to say something about the economic aspect, because we are all agreed that we should strive to develop as rapidly as possible an Al nation. It strikes me that we are not going to develop an Al nation if we are going to maintain a very considerable proportion of our children well below the recognised poverty line. The expenditure of £4,500,000 is a large sum of money but, as the hon. Lady said in moving the Amendment, there are resources from which the money can come and, especially on these benches, we believe that a lot of money can be derived from the taxation of land values.
I represent a very large agricultural constituency. We are more fortunate in Scotland in that our agricultural workers are paid at a higher level than in England and Wales, but many of my fellow countrymen who are agriculturists, like myself, have during the last few years taken farms in the home counties and in the south-east of England, and they tell me that they are nearly invariably driven to bring agricultural workers down from Scotland to maintain their farm. They say the difficulty is that the English worker is not so proficient as the worker in Scotland because they have for generations been living on a wage which has not been enough to give them proper sustenance. I believe that is to some extent true. There is no greater inherent virtue in a Scotchman than in an Englishman. I am stressing the point that the agricultural worker in Scotland has had a higher level of wages for several generations, and that has meant that his children have better food and clothing and, therefore, they are more competent workmen to-day. I trust that this question is going to be looked at from an economic as well as from a humanitarian standpoint, and that we are going to realise that true economy is not always saving expenditure but expending money in the right direction. I can see no better direction than spending money in giving parents who are unemployed an adequate allowance, so as to maintain their children at a reasonable standard, to give them sufficient clothing and food and to ensure, as far as possible, that when they go into employment their physical condition is such that they will be able to make the very best of their lives.
I was disappointed with the Minister's reply. I think she was most unfortunate in the two arguments she used against the Amendments. It may be useful to remind her that this party issued a pamphlet in answer to the Liberal party when they were making an appeal at the Election, and they entitled it, "How to cure unemployment," with a preface by the present Prime Minister. The pamphlet states that the Labour party, ever since it first became a power in British politics, has fought against the callousness of successive Governments and has demanded adequate maintenance for the unemployed. If they describe the former Government as callous, what is the proper word to describe the Minister's reply to-night? Suppose she had to bring in a Supplementary Estimate. That is nothing new. I should think in the seven years that I have been a Member of the House the Minister of Labour every year has had to bring in a Supplementary Estimate.
This Bill does not come into force until the winter is about finished. All that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is giving to the fund this year is £3,500,000. He is not paying the debt that the Treasury owes to the fund. The Treasury owes a far bigger debt than the £3,500,000 that the Chancellor is paying this year. The late Chancellor of the Exchequer reduced the contribution to the Unemployment Fund from 6fd. per person per week to 6d., thereby saving, since that time, £15,000,000. The Chancellor of the Exchequer cannot claim to be a philanthropist in this. He ought to have paid that £15,000,000 back into the Un- employment Fund, and we have a right to expect that he will do it. I remember hearing him tell a story when addressing a mass meeting of miners on the Durham racecourse. The moral was that he would lay his hand upon the shoulders of the rich and would say "I want your money." Let him carry out the moral of that story and get the money for this fund. It is wise for the House to keep this in mind, too, that when the late Conservative Government came into office one of the first things they did was to propose to increase the Treasury contribution to the Unemployed Fund from 6¾d. to 7¾d. per person per week.
The question of finding the money does not arise on the Amendment. If it is carried, the Government will have to find the money, therefore the question is the raising of the amount for the children.
On a point of Order. Inasmuch as the Minister herself has given as the reason for not being able to accept the Amendment the difficulty of finding the money, is it not in order to point out that that difficulty is exaggerated?
Yes, but the hon. Member is not merely pointing out. He is arguing the necessity of finding the money in another direction.
Is he not entitled to do that? If the Minister is entitled to use the argument that the money cannot be found, or that she cannot get it from the Chancellor, is it not competent for another Member to argue that the Chancellor ought to provide the money and to show how he can find it; otherwise, the whole Debate becomes unreal.
It is in order for the hon. Member to say that the Chancellor should find the money and leave it there, and then argue on behalf of the children for getting the extra money.
8.0 p.m.
If there has been one argument used more than another, both on this and former Amendments, it has been that there is not the money. That has influenced Members not to vote for the Amendment. I am suggesting an easy way for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to get the money. I am simply urging the Minister of Labour to tell the Chancellor of the Exchequer to follow the example of the Conservative Government in 1925, and the money will be there without any trouble.
That would have been perfectly in order on the Money Resolution, but the question is not now one of finding money as far as the Chancellor of the Exchequer is concerned. It is a question of pointing out to the Committee the reasons to justify an increase of benefit to the children.
Would it be out of order to say, for example, that a battleship cost £8,000,000, and that by cutting that down you can find the money?
It is one thing to give an example and pass on, and it is another thing to argue where the money may be found.
I want to use another argument. I want to recall to old Labour Members of the House what occurred last year. Last year this House decided to give a grant up to a maximum of £1,000,000 to the Northern Ireland Unemployment Fund, and there was no obligation to do it. I find that in 1925, in a period of six months, the Treasury paid to the Northern Ireland Unemployment Fund £706,069; in 1926, £879,591; and in 1927, £289,750. That was not all. The estimate for 1928 was £550,000, and the estimate for this year was £465,000. I want to submit that, if the Treasury can afford to pay so much money away to the Northern Ireland Unemployment Fund, they should remember that charity should begin at home. They should look at our own people and be prepared to provide money for them before giving it elsewhere, I want again to recall to the Committee this fact: We have just voted on an Amendment where it was decided to pay an unemployed man's wife 9s. per week. There is a stronger case for increasing the allowance to the children, because there are a large number of the wives of unemployed men who do not get benefit. If a woman earns a penny in any way, if she earns 6d., the 9s. will not be paid. Seeing that there are hundreds of cases—I have many of them in my Division—where the wife of the unemployed man does not get her allowance, I submit that it is not too much to ask the Committee to face this question and be prepared to increase the allowances to the children.
When it becomes a question of paying money to the unemployed or to the unemployed man's children, it is said that we cannot find the money, and therefore many Members are opposed to it. I remember that last year the Government passed Bills to give big pensions to Diplomats, big pensions to Colonial and Dominion Governors, and to increase the amount of money to be paid to the London Stipendiary Magistrates. They did all this without hesitation, and now, when it comes to a question of giving money to unemployed men and their families, they say that they cannot do it. I would suggest to the Minister of Labour, if she is so hard up for money and cannot find money, that she should direct attention towards cutting down the excessive cost of the administration of the Unemployment Fund. She should also pay her attention to the huge increase which was agreed to last year for the courts of referees and for the umpire's courts. If she wants to save money, let her do so in those directions, but for goodness sake let her face this question and provide money where it is so much needed in order that the children may be properly fed and brought up in the way that they ought to be brought up. There is not a board of guardians in any industrial district that dare pay 2s. a week in respect of the maintenance of a child. You have to go back 20 or 30 years for examples of boards of guardians being content to give 2s. a week in respect of a child. It is regrettable that to-day we should be paying such a meagre amount, and I am going to support this Amendment, because I believe that the money can easily be found.
A great many of us on these benches would have been far better pleased if what money is to be provided could have been given to the dependent children rather than expended in other ways. Nobody who has had anything to do with children, especially of the poorer people, can watch the sufferings which are involved in a lack of nourishment and unsuitable clothing without realising the deterioration that goes on. I suppose that I am at the head of one of the largest voluntary clinics in this country, dealing with 700 or 800 mothers and babies every week. I hardly know sometimes how to reply to the nurse's questions concerning the diffi- culties in the way of really effectively helping so many children who need help. She came to me the other day and said that a woman had brought twins into the clinic. They were crying bitterly. The doctor said to the woman, "What are you feeding these children on?" and the woman said, "They have not had anything to-day." When the doctor ordered the nourishment which in that clinic we were able to supply, the nursery milk and food, the woman fainted and had to be helped to her home. The nurse who visited the place found that the man had fallen out of employment and that the dependent children were really not sufficiently nourished. What is the difficulty? The man lived in a county council house and had to pay a rent of 24s., and they were trying to subsist on the meagre unemployment pay. That is the sort of thing I am troubled about, and the sort of thing all of us are troubled about. I find, therefore, that there are many of these poor people—and I deal with them week in and week out—hundreds of them who have never had a new garment in their lives. I spend my time in collecting old clothes from people all over the country in order to try and do something to help them in their poverty.
It seems very difficult to resist an Amendment which is designed primarily to help these children, a number of whom are rickety and suffering in various ways; but, if you are steadily fighting against a lack of money to provide the necessaries of life, it makes a great deal of your other work absolutely impossible. I am going to suggest that there is another side. However unpopular it may be, I must say that we are here in this House to look at things steadily, to see them steadily, and to see them as a whole. My trouble is that I have so many people who are deserving, so many people one wants to help, and, on the other hand, a number of people who are always coming for help who are not so deserving. I am face to face with the fact which the hon. Gentleman the Member for West Bermondsey (Dr. Salter) has had to disclose, that in a poor locality like that which he represents and in which I work, the average spent in drink, for instance, is £l for each working family in Bermondsey. That is the other side of the picture. You have to try and hold the balance evenly between these things.
How is that figure obtained?
The hon. Member for West Bermondsey can tell the hon. Member how the figure is obtained. It was obtained by the figures presented to the Assessment Committee, that is, from the stock sheets and papers of various public-houses analysed by the hon. Member for West Bermondsey, and set forth in a pamphlet for the world to see. That is what appals me, that in a poor district of that kind, somehow or another, the average spent on liquor for every working-class family is £l per week.
I must point out to the hon. Member that we must not enter into a discussion on the drink question.
I was only introducing it to show that I have all the sympathy in the world with, and would like to vote, and on balance I should vote for, the Amendment but for certain other things. I have a letter in my pocket from an old age pensioner asking me if it is possible to increase the 10s., because he cannot live on it. I say, "Yes, it ought to be done," and then I get the same plea from others, like the hon. Member who has just spoken.
Is the argument of the hon. Gentleman that, because an old person is so hard up, the children also should be hard up.
The argument is this. I found it put forward from the Labour benches, and I am bound to accept it, that there is not enough money. [An HON. MEMBER: "Do you believe it?"] Whether I believe it or not, there seems to be a great deal of disillusionment still on the benches opposite, but at the General Election promises of these things gleamed from afar. They were attractive and people are now finding that they cannot get the things for which they sold themselves—[ Interruption. ] They get it like the mouse gets the cheese—in the trap. I do not want to be led away from the main point which I wanted to make.
I should like to point out to the hon. Gentleman that the people who support the Labour party do not sell themselves to us any more than they sell themselves to his party. It is a most improper phrase to use, I think.
I said that the people had not the things for which they sold themselves, and all I can say is, that I repeat it, whether hon. Members like it or whether they do not.
That is why Bermondsey would not buy you.
That is worthy of the source from which it comes.
These are just the sort of interruptions which I protested against yesterday, and I hope that we are not going to start again with the same kind of interruptions.
Mr. KEDWARD rose—
You are not in the pulpit now.
There is no reason why I should not tell the truth here, even if it is unpalatable.
There is no reason why you should not be civil.
Order!
If money were avail able to make these concessions I should have to consider the fact that there are hundreds of other people who have
nothing at all and for whom no provision of any kind has been made. My hon. Friend the Member for Galloway (Major Dudgeon) talked of the agricultural workers who come from Scotland, but I disagree with him, because we have, at any rate in the South of England, some of the finest agricultural workers to be seen in this country. The reason why I cannot go into the Lobby in support of the Amendment is that I should be pressed, as I have been pressed in my constituency, by people who say: "All this money is being given in industrial centres, while here in the agricultural districts there is not one penny for those of us who are out of work." It is very difficult for me to resist that argument. I work in Bermondsey but I represent an agricultural constituency. As there is only so much money available and we are told that it is the limit, it should be fairly shared amongst the people who are in dire need.
rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
Question, "That the Question be now put," put, and agreed to.
Question put accordingly "That those words be there inserted."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 37; Noes, 210.
Division No. 74.] AYES. [8.22 p.m. Batey, Joseph Horrabin, J. F. Noel Baker, P. J. Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale) Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Potts, John S. Brockway, A. Fenner Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. Rathbone, Eleanor Brown, W. J. (Wolverhampton, West) Kelly, W. T. Sandham, E. Buchanan, G. Kinley, J. Scrymgeour, E. Cocks, Frederick Seymour Kirkwood. D. Shakespeare, Geoffrey H. Cove, William G. Longden, F. Simmons, C. J. Devlin, Joseph McShane, John James Stephen, Campbell Dudgeon, Major C. R. Marley, J. Wallhead, Richard C. Forgan, Dr. Robert Maxton, James Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. Groves, Thomas E. Morgan, Dr. H. B. Wise, E. F. Haycock, A. W. Muggeridge, H. T. Hore-Belisha, Leslie Nathan, Major H. L. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Mr. Beckett and Miss Lee. NOES. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Bennett, William (Battersea, South) Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Benson, G. Burgess, F. G. Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Bentham, Dr. Ethel Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland) Aitchison, Rt. Hon. Craigie M. Berry, Sir George Cameron, A. G. Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro') Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret Cape, Thomas Ammon, Charles George Bowen, J. W. Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.) Angell, Norman Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Cautley, Sir Henry S. Arnott, John Broad, Francis Alfred Charleton, H. C. Attlee, Clement Richard Bromfield, William Chater, Daniel Ayles, Walter Bromley, J. Cluse, W. S. Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Brooke, W. Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood Brothers, M. Compton, Joseph Bennett, Captain E. N. (Cardiff, Central) Brown, C. W. E. (Notts. Mansfield) Daggar, George
Dallas, George Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle) Sawyer, G. F. Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Leach, W. Scurr, John Denman, Hon. R. D. Lee, Frank (Derby, N. E.) Sexton, James Dickson, T. Lewis, T. (Southampton) Sherwood, G. H. Dukes, C. Lloyd, C. Ellis Shield, George William Duncan, Charles Longbottom, A. W. Shillaker, J. F. Ede, James Chuter Lovat-Fraser, J. A. Shinwell, E. Edmunds, J. E. Lowth, Thomas Sinkinson, George Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) Smith, Alfred (Sunderland) Edwards, E. (Morpeth) MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham) Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) Egan, W. H. McElwee, A. Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) Freeman, Peter Mackinder, W. Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Smith, Tom (Pontefract) Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.) MacNeill-Weir, L. Smith, W. R. (Norwich) Gibbins, Joseph Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip Gill, T. H. Mansfield, W. Snowden, Thomas (Accrington) Gillett, George M. March, S. Sorensen, R. Gosling, Harry Marcus, M. Spero, Dr. G. E. Gossling, A. G. Markham, S. F. Stamford, Thomas W. Gould, F. Mathers, George Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Matters, L. W. Strauss, G. R. Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Melville, Sir James Sullivan, J. Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne). Messer, Fred Sutton, J. E. Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Middleton, G. Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Mills, J. E. Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby) Grundy, Thomas W. Milner, J. Thorne. W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Morley, Ralph Thurtle, Ernest Hall, F. (York. W. R., Normanton) Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South) Tinker, John Joseph Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Mort, D. L. Toole, Joseph Hall. Capt. W. P. (Portsmouth, C.) Moses, J. J. H. Tout, W. J. Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn) Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent) Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Mosley, Sir Oswald (Smethwick) Turner, B. Hastings, Dr. Somerville Muff, G. Vaughan, D. J. Hayes, John Henry Murnin, Hugh Viant, S. P. Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Naylor, T. E. Walker, J. Henderson, Arthur, junr. (Cardiff, S.) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Wallace, H. W. Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) Oldfield, J. R. Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston) Wardlaw-Milne, J. S. Herriotts, J. Palin, John Henry Watkins, F. C. Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth) Palmer, E. T. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Perry, S. F. Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Hoffman, P. C. Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Wellock, Wilfred Hopkin, Daniel Phillips, Dr. Marion Welsh, James (Paisley) Isaacs, George Picton-Turbervill, Edith Welsh, James C. (Coatbridge) Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Pole, Major D. G. West, F. R. John, William (Rhondda, West) Price, M. P. Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood) Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Raynes, W. R. Whiteley, William (Blaydon) Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Richards, R. Williams, David (Swansea, East) Jowitt, Rt. Hon. Sir W. A. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Kennedy, Thomas Riley, Ben (Dewsbury) Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.. Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees) Wilson, J. (Oldham) Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George Ritson, J. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Lathan, G. Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) Winterton, G. E. (Leicester, Loughb'gh) Law, Albert (Bolton) Romeril, H. G. Wright, W. (Rutherglen) Law, A. (Rosendale) Rosbotham, D. S. T. Young, R. S. (Islington, North) Lawrence, Susan Salter, Dr. Alfred Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge) Samuel, H. W. (Swansea, West) TELLERS FOR THE NOES— Lawson, John James Sanders, W. S. Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Paling.
I beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
I need hardly say that I do not rise to discuss this Bill but in order to make a proposal as regards the future of the Committee stage which I hope will meet with the general convenience of the Committee. I start with the assumption that nobody really likes all-night sittings. There may be a few zealots among new Members; but wait until they have seen three all-night sittings, and they will have very different ideas on the subject. I propose that the Committee should adopt what has been done before, a voluntary time-table for this Bill, and I suggest that we should continue the Committee stage and finish it by next Tuesday night, 10th December. This arrangement will have two advantages. It will avoid all-night sittings, and secondly, and an even greater advantage, it will enable us to divide the Bill into parts, so that we can make quite certain of discussing the important parts of the Bill in plenty of time in daylight and at a reasonable hour.
I think I can respond to the suggestion which has been made by the right hon. and gallant Member in a way that I hope will satisfy all sections of the Committee. There is a general desire to avoid all- night sittings on this or any other Bill, but, while that is so, I should make it perfectly clear that the intention of the Government in regard to this Bill is that it should reach another place as early as possible. Consistent with that intention, I can, on behalf of the Government, accept the suggestion that the Committee stage should be concluded this day week. So far as to-day's sitting is concerned, I think it is necessary that we should dispose of Clauses 2 and 3, and, so far as I can judge, we should be able to do that round about midnight. The suggestion that we should impose upon ourselves what is virtually a voluntary time-table, which would allow of important Amendments being taken and enable us to complete the Committee stage of the Bill this day week, is a suggestion which I am glad to say I am able to accept on behalf of the Government.
I associate myself from the bottom of my heart with the points which have been put forward by the right hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite. I have no desire to be detained myself, or to detain anybody else, beyond an ordinary reasonable hour, and, on behalf of those who are associated with me, I say that we gladly fall in with such a voluntary time-table. [ Interruption. ] I think the alignments on this Bill are somewhat different from the ordinary party alignments. I should like to make this proviso on behalf of my hon. Friends who are endeavouring to improve this Bill, that in the suggested programme some regard will be had to the wishes and desires of that minority in this House who have taken an active interest in the Measure, and if I can have that assurance I promise the Government that they will have no difficulty in the matter from us.
I am a supporter of the Government, and inasmuch as I believe that this Bill, although it is much abused on all sides of the House, will confer certain undoubted benefits on some classes of the community I think it should become law at the earliest possible moment. In order to do that I am not desirous that we should limit legitimate discussion or criticism of the Bill. I speak for myself now when I say that the man on these benches who believes that this Bill is a good Bill and who is not prepared to work all night for it does not seriously express the views which he has been sent here to express. I have, like many other of my hon. Friends on this side, worked night shifts under much more unbearable circumstances than those attaching to night shifts here. I have been privileged to sit in previous Parliaments where we have frequently had to work night shifts and the prospect of working four night shifts a week would not seriously disturb me. I put it to hon. Members that, if it is desired to obviate night shifts it would be convenient very often to avoid Divisions on the Closure. I say with all respect that a great deal of time is being wasted by unnecessary Divisions. [An HON. MEMBER: "Who is wasting time now?"] I hope that the Government will not commit themselves to any arrangement which will unduly impinge upon the liberties of hon. Members and the opportunities for discussion.
As I was not fortunate enough to catch your eye, Mr. Chairman, when I rose previously, I was not sure that it was necessary to say anything at all. We on these benches will be very glad to fall in with the admirable arrangement which has been suggested. The time proposed ought to be ample to allow of adequate consideration being given to all important matters in connection with the Bill, and we congratulate both the Government and the Opposition upon having been able to make an arrangement which I am sure will be acceptable in all quarters of the House.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, in page 2, line 10, to leave out paragraph ( b ).
This, like other Amendments to Clause 2—which deals with increases of benefits—is moved on the ground that the Ministers in charge of the Bill have never justified, on the existing financial resources of the fund, any increase in benefits whatever. There is a great deal to be said for some of these increases but if the fund is not in a position to stand any further benefits we cannot justify them on this basis, however much we would like to give them. It is quite another matter when we come to a Clause like Clause 12 under which it is proposed that the State alone should bear the cost of defraying a certain class of benefits. In this case we are not dealing with a proposal of that kind—and that is one of the underlying fallacies which seem to have been overlooked in the discussions of this afternoon. The broad fact is that in Clause 2 we are purporting to finance certain benefits out of contributions by the workman, the employer and the third party; and there is no actual justification, on the basis of the present outlook regarding the numbers of unemployed, for saying that the fund can afford any further increases of benefit.
What would you do with them?
In Clause 12 it is not proposed to charge the fund but the State with the benefits and what we object to is that in Clause 2 hon. Members opposite are not charging the State but the Insurance Fund without any justification. That is our general objection to Clause 2. I agree that on the basis of the actuary's report there is not a great deal of money involved. In fact as I read the report paragraphs ( b ), ( c ), ( d ), ( e ) and ( f ) combined are not expected to cost the fund more than £100,000 a year. All these proposals which are set out with the appearance of giving considerably increased benefits to certain persons are not going to amount to much money according to that estimate, which is a very small thing compared with some of the requests made by certain hon. Members opposite earlier in this Debate. Our point is that the whole of paragraph ( b ), with these extended benefits, small as they are, is not based upon any principle. There is no basic principle underlying these proposals.
Is the hon. Gentleman's income based on a basic principle?
These questions do not arise on Sub-section (2, b ) of Clause 2 of this Bill. At the present moment, under the law, benefit is only paid to a dependant if the dependant is residing with the insured person and is wholly or mainly maintained by the insured person. Those are two basic principles governing the payment of benefit to dependants in all previous Insurance Acts. Paragraph ( b ) proposes for the first time to extend dependants benefit to people who are not residing with the insured person. Secondly, it does away with the "wholly or mainly maintained" provision. Therefore, it breaks down the fence round the class of persons ordinarily understood and always understood to be the class of legal dependants, and it opens the net almost indefinitely. I said just now that the Government Actuary estimated that the total cost to the fund of paragraphs ( b ), ( c ), ( d ) and ( e ) would be £100,000 a year, but the Actuary said:
"As no statistics are available, a precise estimate is impossible."
One of the unsatisfactory features of this Bill is that instead of the Ministers in charge of it saying, "We have had evidence of so many cases of hardship which we think ought to be redressed and which will cost so much money," they are adopting these tinkering Amendments of the existing law, which may look as if they are doing something effective but, in fact, are merely breaking down the principles which have hitherto protected the Fund, without getting any substantial gain by so doing. After all, what did the Blanesburgh Committee say on this very point? They said:
"The contribution is at a flat rate for all contributors"—
and we have had so many speeches today from hon. Members who seem almost to forget the contributor and think it is a question of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the State—
"and therefore the classes of dependants should, in fairness to the contributors as a whole, be confined to those for whose maintenance a strong legal or moral responsibility is imposed on the claimant."
Here again the Government decided to throw over that principle and to embark upon the stormy sea of breaking down here and there little points of principle of that kind. I now turn to the operation of paragraph ( b ). I maintain that the administrative machinery which you will require to operate this paragraph is going to be a very great difficulty, because, as I read it, somebody has to decide in every case whether or not the claimant for benefit is a woman not residing with the insured person, whether she receives the required sum per week, and whether she is in fact assisting in the care of his chil- dren. What does that word "assisting" mean? One understands the situation of a widower who has a housekeeper, or some relative, to look after the children, but here the Insurance Fund is to be drawn upon for people not living with the family, not living with the insured person, but who under this paragraph, is described as assisting in the care of the children. I particularly want to ask the Parliamentary Secretary, "Are we to understand from this paragraph ( b ) that an insured person, with a wife still living with him, if he employs a woman, not residing in the House, to come in so many days a week to assist the wife in the care of the children, and that man becomes unemployed, will be entitled to draw dependant's allowance in respect of that assistance?
In addition?
In addition.
In no case does the man receive dependant's benefit for more than one in the case of a woman looking after his children.
That is the existing law, and we know that, but as I read this paragraph there seems to be a doubt about it, and it is a point that wants very careful examination. We are dealing with a woman employed by an insured person to assist in the care of his children, and I am not satisfied that the wording of paragraph ( b ) does in fact cut out the people whom the Parliamentary Secretary says it does cut out. Surely the only safe way to draft this paragraph would be to make it quite clear that the person who is to be assisted out of the Fund is a person who is assisting either a widower or somebody who has nobody residing with him to look after his children, and whose whole-time occupation is the care of those children, that is to say, who is in fact a whole-time dependant on the insured person. I maintain that if you are going to depart from that principle, and break down the principle that the claimants for dependants' benefit should prove that they are wholly or mainly maintained by the insured person in the ordinary course of life, then you are in for administrative chaos, because you would inevitably have one insurance officer interpreting it one way and another in another way, one person get- ting benefit for assisting in the care of children for a few hours a week, while another who assists for three whole days in the week is refused, and so on.
It seems to me that paragraph ( b ) is one of those extremely weak, nebulous and tinkering proposals that we find in this Bill, the typical product, if I may say so, not of any political decision by the Government or the Cabinet, not even the product of the Minister herself, but just that sort of thing that gets put up by a Department on account of one or two cases that have come to their notice, and gets put into an Act of Parliament, producing chaos in the laws of this country. Anybody who has served in a Government office knows the pressure of particular cases leading to legislation, which does nothing but harm to the whole State, to the laws, and to the Administration of this country; and the more I study these paragraphs in this Sub-section, the more I feel uneasy that the actual numbers affected have not been seriously considered, but that they are put in for no real reason and without adequate thought having been given to the effect on the principles hitherto guiding our insurance legislation or the capacity of the administrative machine under the Ministry of Labour to carry them out and administer them fairly. It is inevitable that an enormous number of new anomalies will be created by this Sub-section, which will lead to further extensions and further legislation in the 22nd Bill which, I presume, we are to expect next year if we are to understand the Government's undertaking in that relation. We do not like this Sub-section; we think it is bad in principle, and that no adequate case has been made out for it. We think that it will make for administrative difficulties, and that the difficulty of defining it properly, if it become law in its present form, is bound to result in grave injustices. We question whether the right hon. Lady has been wise in her whole scheme of allocating the money which she has available from this fund, that is to say, whether she has been wise in selecting the particular categories of people and concentrating money on these people, rather than on the people who have been chronically unemployed for a long time. These are the people who ought to be separated out for treatment.
In this Clause, you are mixing up a type of case, which hon. Members have had in their minds this evening, the real poverty-stricken family which has been unemployed for years—you are mixing them up with the vast mass of people who are sometimes on the fund and sometimes more usually off; and you are treating these two quite different categories of people in identically the same way. It is the hopeless fallacy of having a universal flat rate of benefit for the whole range of the unemployed population. This extension to a new class of dependants emphasises our fundamental objection to the way in which any money available from the Chancellor of the Exchequer or the fund has been allocated under this Bill. This is a tinkering Bill, and its chief failure is that it shows a complete lack of a constructive statesmanship in dealing with the problem of the relief of the unemployed.
9.0 p.m.
I want to support what the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Stafford (Mr. Ormsby-Gore) has said. This Sub-section shows the difficulty of trying to combine a system of relief with an insurance Bill. That is really the main objection behind all the Amendments which have been moved from this side of the Committee. It is most unfair to the contributor to the fund that he should have some of his money taken by means of such a Subsection as this. I am hoping that we shall have some reason given from the Front Bench why the Sub-section was considered necessary. It seems to me particularly unnecessary, for there must be very few people whom it affects, and it is completely unworkable. There are numerous opportunities here for fraud. I do not see how you are going to prove, if a certain person who claims benefit under this Sub-section on behalf of a non-resident housekeeper, is a genuine case or not. Though it is ridiculous to assume that everybody is fraudulent, it must be obvious that if there is no way of proving it, it is much better left out of the Bill. I do not see how you are going to find out whether a man is genuine in saying that he has somebody coming in to assist in the care of his children, or whether he is not. There seems to be no reason why a man, for instance, drawing benefit, and living over a shop kept by a woman, should not arrange with that woman to come up, say, once a day and, because she does that, draw the 9s. a week in respect of her. There must be hundreds of cases of exactly the same kind.
I know that it says in the Bill "previously to becoming unemployed" and so forth; but it seems easy to get round that, because most people before they become unemployed know a few hours before—it is usually a few days—that they are likely to fall out of employment. Therefore, it would not be difficult for a man to arrange just beforehand for a woman to take on this job and thereby draw the benefit. The right hon. Gentleman who moved the Amendment said that the wording was extraordinary. The Sub-section says,
The right hon. Gentleman who moved the deletion of this paragraph pointed out that it was not based upon any basic principle, but it is firmly based on the experience of earlier legislation in which it was laid down that the woman must have had care of the dependent children. In this case she must have assisted in the care of the dependent children.
Is not the wording of the existing Act, "Has had care of the children," and not assisted in the care of them?
I do not think that point is really material. The fact is that the man must have been paying the women before he was unemployed. It is true that in this case there is the difference that the woman does not live in the house, but the fact that a working man employs some woman from outside to look after his children is, in view of the limitation of his means, a very good indication of the extreme necessity for such help. The right hon. Gentleman asked us why we took a course of this kind. This has been pressed for by organised workers who represent at least one-third of the contributors to the Fund. They have had experience. I think the Committee will agree that there is no condition which is more pathetic and which is better known in any street—which not only moves the neighbours but moves people in the whole of the immediate neighbourhood— than the case of a man whose wife has died, or left him, and whose children have no one to look after them. It is said that this concession has not been based upon any firm principle; it is based upon something much stronger, and that is experience. The experience we have gained in actual administration has impressed upon the workers' representatives the very great need for recognition of these cases.
The hon. Member spoke of the representatives of one-third of the insured workers. Who are those people?
Certain trade unions, like the Iron and Steel Trades Federation who, before State insurance came in, had considerable experience in this matter. I am sure that organisation and others like it can speak with authority as a result of their experience. The right hon. Gentleman said further, that it would be very difficult to administer this paragraph. I think the Insurance Fund has had much greater difficulties than this from the point of view of administration, from the point of view of making sure that a woman in this case is assisting in the care of the children. I am sure there is an hon. Member opposite who can say from experience that those who administer the Insurance Fund manage to satisfy themselves about much more abstract and difficult questions than we are dealing with here. The Government make no apology for introducing this paragraph. It will meet a long felt want. It is the kind of thing that grows as we go on. After all, this insurance scheme is in an experimental stage, so to speak. Sometimes we have had to add to it, and sometimes we have had to cut away. It is not true, as an hon. Gentleman on the back benches opposite said, that this is a question of relief. The right hon. Gentleman on the Front Bench made it clear that it was a payment out of the Fund itself.
I say it ought not to be.
I think the hon. Gentleman did say that it was a matter rather of relief.
Yes.
But the man has paid as a contributor. If his wife were alive and living with him he would receive the benefit in respect of his wife, because he had been a contributor, and when he gets this benefit for some person not living in the house who assists in the care of his children he is only receiving what he has paid for. I do not wish to take this matter any further, except to say that as an instance of expressing experience in cold legal terms this is certainly one of the satisfying things in this Bill which has been so much criticised.
The Parliamentary Secretary of the Ministry of Labour made the remark that at present we are in an experimental stage as regards unemployment insurance. I agree with him up to a point, and had the fund been in anything like a solvent position I should have been only too glad to see such a concession as this made. Unfor- tunately, not only is it in an experimental stage, but it is not Very far from being in a bankrupt condition. [ Interruption ]. An hon. Member says that is through the legislation of my party. I would ask him to remember that the debt went from £6,000,000 to £24,000,000 owing to the coal trouble in 1926. The borrowing power is at present limited to £40,000,000. By the end of next year, just over a year from now, no fresh borrowing will be permitted which will take the fund to more than £30,000,000. We are now in debt to the tune of over £37,000,000, and I suggest to the party opposite that this is not the time, even if matters are in an experimental stage, to indulge in fresh experiments however desirable they may be. That is my objection.
What is now proposed is something in the nature of a blank cheque, because the Government actuary, who is a most matter of fact person, did not make any recommendation in favour of this additional charge, and he simply reported that "It has been suggested." The Government actuary with all the facts before him could only say, "It has been suggested," and he took no responsibility for the suggestions contained in this proposal. Under these circumstances, I suggest that this is not an appropriate time to increase the debt. This is a most unfortunate time to ask the Government to provide this extra money. I wish to endorse the statement which has been made by the hon. and gallant Member for North Hackney (Captain A. Hudson), who pointed out that it would be very difficult to find out whether an individual had employed a female person who has not been residing with him in order to look after his dependent children. It would be almost impossible for the officials at the employment exchanges to disprove any statement which an unemployed man might make in this respect. I can conceive a man out of work saying to a woman, "You can come and help me to look after my children; it means 9s. a week for you." I can see the possibility of a good deal of leakage in the administration of this proposal; and, in the interests of good administration and good finance, I hope the Minister of Labour will see her way not to press this particular proposal.
I want the representative of the Ministry of Labour to assure us that this proposal is perfectly sound and workable. Those who have had experience of the administration of Unemployment Insurance Acts know how easy it is to interpret a provision of this sort in a sense which was never contemplated by Parliament. Paragraph ( b ) of Sub-section (2) of this Clause says:
The hon. Member for East Lewisham (Sir A. Pownall) raised an objection to the paragraph under discussion on the ground of the difficulty of watching closely to see that this provision was not used for fraudulent purposes. Is it suggested that there should be a policeman placed at every gate. If the Government had brought forward a provision that in these cases the woman had to be resident in the house, we should have had quite a different objection raised. Do hon. Members realise the conditions under which some of our people live. It is a fact that a large percentage of the children live in houses with no one to look after them. It is absolutely necessary in the interest of morality, or at any rate in the interests of satisfying the public that people are living a moral life, that the woman who looks after the children in such cases should reside outside that dwelling. Does anyone suggest that, because there is no accommodation in the house for the woman who is assisting in the care of dependent children, the father, who is trying to do the best he can for his children, should be deprived of the benefits of this provision? Hon. Members opposite do not seem to have any idea of the difficulty of satisfying the authorities in regard to a claim of this kind; and, if they think that this is a case where they can drive a carriage and pair through an Act of Parliament, I suggest that they should go to the Employment Exchanges in order to see the difficulties which have to be encountered by the working-classes.
It has been argued that, if there is any money to spare, it should be spent on the children. May I remind those who have used that argument that I proposed an Amendment to spend a little more money on the children, and it was opposed by hon. Members opposite; and now they suggest that, instead of spending money on a woman to look after the children, it ought to be spent on the children. It is difficult to accept that as a serious argument, or as a reasonable objection to the provisions of this Bill. Hon. Members opposite have told the Committee that, if the Unemployment Insurance Fund was solvent, they would be willing to grant this, that and the other. If that is so, why hot make the fund solvent by putting more State money into it? Hon. Members cannot have it both ways. Do they want the fund to be solvent? Undoubtedly they do. There are several ways in which it can be made solvent. One is to reduce the benefits at present paid and which are very little increased by the Bill. Do hon. Members opposite argue that the benefits now being paid should be reduced? If they are not in favour of reducing the benefits, then the other courses open to them are these. Are they in favour of putting a heavier burden on industry for the purpose of making the fund solvent? Do they want the employers' contribution or the workers' contribution to be increased? There is silence, because they would not propose an Amendment in that direction at all. If they are not going to reduce the scale of benefits or to increase the contributions of employers and workers, surely the only other course open to them is to increase the State contribution to the fund, if they genuinely want it to be solvent? If they are going to increase the State contribution there is no substance in their argument that if the fund were solvent they would do the right thing towards the poor people. Such an argument cannot easily be described in Parliamentary language.
They do not want to feed these people at all. They want to get back to the spirit expressed in the speech of the Noble Lord the Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton) yesterday. It was this, that it is much better for a nation if its people are put right up against starvation, because in that way you will bring out the best that is in them and produce a hardier race than you will by the method of pampering. That is the spirit expressed by hon. Gentlemen opposite, but they dare not propagate it in this House or in the country, so they go on saying that they want to chip off a piece here and a piece there. As a matter of fact, what they want to do is to kill the principle of this scheme. I wish hon. Members opposite would be honest. They do not want the fund to be solvent—at any rate, the people who live on lending money to the State do not want it to be solvent. They get £2,000,000 a year from it, and there have been no Amendments to reduce that amount. You cannot get money for the children or a housekeeper or for this or that, but you can get money without question for the moneylenders. The only people who are never unemployed are the moneylenders. The only people whose incomes are never reduced by Motions in any part of the House are the moneylenders. They get £2,000,000 a year out of the poverty and distress of the poorer section of the population. I am going to support the Sub-section, and I doubt very much whether hon. Members opposite will have the nerve to go into the Lobby in opposition to it.
I am not going to follow the right hon. Gentleman in the somewhat wild speech which he has made. There have been times, four years ago, when I should have liked to have done so, when he occupied a position of authority and responsibility in this House. He has long ceased to hold that position, and I do not propose to take any notice of his speech. I only want to address one or two questions to the Parliamentary Secretary. Hon. Members on this side are not quite clear on two points with which he did not deal when replying to the Amendment. He said that the concession which was being made in this Subsection was not based upon principle, but upon experience. He did not say at the time very clearly what that experience was. He told us that about a third of those who are among the insured population had stated their desire for the change to be made. He did not tell us who they were or through what organisation they spoke. Nor did he tell us—and we regard this as important —whether these persons who made these representations put forward any estimate of the cost of the proposals and whether or not their figures were accepted. As my right hon. Friend indicated in his speech, we are by no means unfavourable to the principle of the existing law. I think I am right in saying that we regard this matter with an open mind, but we do regard the Clause as drafted as extremely cumbersome and ambiguous and as laying the whole Insurance Fund open to the possibility that there may be far greater calls upon it than the Government intend. When the right hon. Lady comes to reply, I hope she will deal with this question of experience.
The other matter to which the Parliamentary Secretary did not reply was the point raised by my right hon. Friend on the question of assistance. I am quite willing to admit that the Government have approached this matter in a genuine and sympathetic desire to provide assistance for those who are unable to look after their children and who have to have someone to do it for them. It applies also to married men, whose wives are in employment. I can quite understand that the unemployed man who, as the Parliamentary Secretary pointed out, has a person looking after his children and who is wholly or mainly maintained by him to take care of the children, is entitled to draw benefit in respect of her to-day. This Clause is very vague, and I invite the right hon. Lady to define a little more clearly what is meant by the word "assist" and what steps are being taken to prevent fraud that may occur.
I have no wish to introduce anything unpleasant into the Debate, but it occurs to me that it might lead to a rather undesirable state of affairs and relationships. Suppose that a man who is not on good terms with his wife and who is unemployed, claimed for some woman with whom he had relations, and who did something each day for his children. He might claim that she was assisting in the care of the children. If she went into the room for a few minutes each day and assisted in a small way in looking after the children. We have to consider these cases and see that there is protection against the Subsection being open to fraud. I think we all agree that the Government are genuinely anxious to deal with hard cases that may arise under the Act, but we do feel that this Subsection is dangerous and remarkably badly drafted and likely to fail to achieve the purpose for which it is intended.
I only rise to ask the right hon. Lady if she is really satisfied with the drafting of the Clause? I should like it to be made quite clear that there is no question of two benefits being paid in respect of this Clause. I think it could be made clearer, so that it really expressed the meaning desired, because it all depends apparently on how you interpret the Clause regarding the weekly rate. I do not know whether or not that might be argued by a lawyer to mean simply one, or whether it might be possible for the husband to get benefit in respect of a wife as well as some person who assisted him. That is one point. The second has reference to the use of the words "continues to employ a female person who is not residing with him." I am not a lawyer, but does that phrase exclude the employed woman with children who may employ a person to assist in looking after her children while she is away at work? I hope that the Clause really carries out the intentions of the Government.
I must say that I feel very sympathetic towards this Clause, because I can quite see the point of view of a man who has children and presumably no wife—or, if he has a wife, she is not living with them—and who requires the assistance of some woman to come into his house and help him to look after the children. Is the Clause as carefully drawn as it should be, or is it open to any kind of abuse? The right hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. Wheatley) has seen fit to criticise what we have been saying and has described it as hollowness and humbug. I do not think that that is at all fair criticism, from what I have heard of the speeches on the Opposition side of the Committee to-night. One could easily retort that the right hon. Gentleman is busily engaged at the present time in leading a rebel gang against his own party for the purpose of getting kudos himself, in order to try, perhaps, some day to come from his present obscure position back to the Front Bench. There are one or two points on which I hope the Minister will make the position clear. They may be only slight points but they should be answered. What exactly is meant by the word "employment"? Does it mean employment for reward or not? Assume that a woman is going in regularly to the house of a man who is in work and has children. That man is possibly paying the woman nothing for looking after the children; she may be a friend or neighbour. Is that man, with the aid of that woman, to get this money, or must it be a woman who is actually receiving some financial reward week by week?
Read the Clause.
I have read it very carefully. Another point is this: In the Bill the word "children" is not defined. Is it defined in the original Act? Does it mean a man's own children? Suppose that a man has only one child. And what must the extent of the employment be? Does it mean that a woman can come in for half an hour every morning and evening? Would that be enough to qualify a man under this Clause, or must it be the employment of a woman who is working all day in the man's house? Apart from these points and others that have been raised by my right hon. and hon. Friends, the Clause is really an admirable one, and, provided that we get satisfactory answers to our questions, I shall vote for the Clause. I regard it as a far better Clause than Clause 1, which is neither more nor less than a deliberate intention to corrupt the young children of this country. If the Minister of Labour had limited her activities to assisting the unemployed by a Clause of the kind that we are now discussing, her Bill would have gone through far more easily.
I am very glad to clear up the several points that have been raised. The point as to the non-resident housekeeper has been a matter of considerable discussion ever since 1924, from my personal knowledge. It was first raised by that very well organised body of workers—the Iron and Steel Trades Federation, who represent a highly skilled group of men, and brought forward a very strong case in 1924. At that time it was not found possible to get a form of words which would express what they wanted to express while at the same time avoiding these evils to which the Noble Lord has referred. I believe that in this Clause, subject, of course, to criticism on drafting points, which I shall be only too glad to have thoroughly reviewed before the Report stage, we have a form of words which does safeguard us against the very evils which are substantial possibilities.
A question has been asked about the use of the word "assist." The draftsman advised the use of the word, because obviously a non-resident housekeeper will not have the complete care of the children; the father will be looking after them at night when he gets home. The word "assist" is the correct word to use under the circumstances; but it must be a substantial care of the children from the fact that the payment for that service is not less than 9s., and no man will pay that amount for the care of his children unless there is substantial service as a return for the 9s. That, I think, is the greatest safeguard in regard to the whole matter. In the principal Act there is no doubt as to who is meant by "children." They are children dependent upon the claimant, and there could be no other kind of children meant. The final point raised, and a very strong point, opens the question of the housing difficulties of the present time. It is not always a question of poverty. A wife has died and there is no spare room for a resident housekeeper, and a non-resident housekeeper has to come in to take care of the children. Such cases are quite a substantial proportion of those that come under one's notice.
I would like to thank the Minister for the very clear and courteous reply she has given to the points raised. We very much appreciate it. I would throw out for consideration, in the re-drafting of lines 15 and 16 before the Report stage, the following words:
"Continues to employ a female person, whether residing with him or not, for the purpose of assisting him in the care of his dependent children."
That shows that the employment of the new class of dependent is for the purpose of looking after the children. If these words are considered likely to make the Clause more clear to whoever interprets it—that is to say, that the dependant's benefit will be given to the bona fide individual who looks after a workman's children when he is at work, and there is no one else to look after them—if words of this sort could be considered between now and the Report stage, I think it would help to clear away some of the anomalies of the Clause. I do not want to delay the Committee by going into these points further at this stage, but, if they could be considered, we should be very glad.
Would it be possible to add the words "for his dependent children," and would they cover step-children and illegitimate children?
Those children who are dependent upon him in the categories laid down in the Acts.
Amendment negatived.
I beg to move, in page 2, to leave out from the word "children," in line 17, to the word "the," in line 20.
I do not think that this is an Amendment of sufficient importance to keep the Committee for a very long time. I think the right hon. Lady will understand that it is not an Amendment on any vital question upon which there must be an important discussion. I very much hope, especially in view of the fact that, as I think the right hon. Lady will admit, she has not been able to meet us very much in the Committee stage so far, that one of two things will be possible at a very early stage in this discussion. In the first place, I frankly admit that it is possible that I have misunderstood the meaning of the words that I want to omit, and if the right hon. Lady can prove that to me—and I shall be very open to her instruction—I certainly shall not desire to press the Amendment. If, on the other hand, the construction that I have put upon the words is the right construction, then I hope that the Minister of Labour will be willing to meet us in this matter.
I recognise that the right hon. Lady is entitled to a certain amount of sympathy, because she has just fought a successful battle on one front of this Clause, and now we are going to attack her from the very reverse front; but we feel a little unhappy as to whether these words will not make possible, and, indeed, necessary, even more of that inquisitorial manner of giving these benefits which I think everyone, on this side of the House at any rate, is anxious to avoid. I think there is a very general opinion on this side of the House that if benefits, or assistance, or relief, or any other kind of help, is to be given to necessitous people, it should be done with the least possible amount of inquisition into their private affairs, and I am wondering, when I read this Clause, whether it is really worth while holding an inquiry to decide whether a man pays 9s. to the woman who helps him to look after his children, or whether he pays her 8s. 6d., or 7s. 9d., or 5s. 3d., when perhaps, for all that we know, there are other circumstances not connected with money paid in cash, although very close to it, which make the cash payment of 9s. nonexistent.
I think it will be generally admitted that one of the most astonishing things that one notices when one starts to investigate the life of people who are living absolutely below the poverty line in this country is the extraordinary way in which they help the young. The saying that the poor help the poor is an obvious truism when one starts to investigate the circumstances. I am afraid that, if the right hon. Lady does not meet us in some way on the construction of these words, we shall get the case where some woman, perhaps a relative, perhaps a friend, or perhaps just a neighbour performing a friendly act—perhaps with an unemployed husband herself and just as hard up and uncomfortable as the people she is helping out of sheer kindness and with a motherly instinct for the children that the father is not able completely to look after without a mother's help. She might come in only for a short time, as the Noble Lord opposite was saying. She might say, "Well, it costs me so much for omnibus fares or something of that kind, and if you give me 4s. or 5s. to cover that, I will try and do it." The man, on the other hand, who is being assisted in this way, with that pride which fortunately is very strong in that class of society, would not dream of pressing extra money upon the woman who is helping him, but would feel that it was up to him to make a return of some kind, if not in money paid on a Friday. I hope the Committee will not think that I am straining at a gnat and making a very strong hypothetical case, because I am sure that many Members on this side of the House, at any rate, and I think on the other side, must in the course of their social investigations have found a great deal of life going on in the way that I am describing.
I do not want to labour the point, but what I am afraid of is that this Clause. is going to cause, first of all, an inquisition into the details of the man's home and the means of the woman who is helping him; that, in the second place, it is going to cause injustice through the amount paid not reaching the legal maximum; and that, in the third place, it is going to put a premium on the man and woman who tell lies in connection with this matter, as compared with the: ordinary person. For all these reasons, I should very much like the right hon. lady either to assure me that there is no fear of these things happening, or, between now and another examination of this Bill, to see whether she cannot alter the wording so that the things I fear may be removed.
I think the hon. Member has misunderstood the meaning of this Clause. The point is perfectly clear. The self-respecting worker who has been compelled by the death of his wife to engage a non-resident housekeeper comes up against a situation, in the present state of the law, whereby, when he is unemployed—at the very time when it is really necessary to get his dependant's allowance—the Act debars him from continuing the payments to the woman who is looking after his children. Therefore, it is an essential point in the case that he shall have been employing the woman to look after his children, and we are helping him so that he shall not have to give her the sack when he becomes unemployed. That is the substantial point in putting these Words in, namely, to meet the case of a widower who in fact has employed a non-resident housekeeper while he was in work, and who, when he is out of work, should be able to claim this dependant's allowance.
If a man is unemployed, and his wife dies during the course of his unemployment, he has to take someone in to look after the children. In that case, under the wording of this, he is debarred. That is a vital point. I had such a case in my own constituency where a man had four children and he was debarred. I think something might be done to overcome the difficulty and I ask the right hon. Lady if she will undertake before Report to consider the matter.
I will gladly consider the point.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, in page 2, line 21, at the end, to insert the words:
"Provided that the additional sum of nine shillings shall not be payable in respect of a female person who is in receipt of benefit (including benefit under any special scheme), or who is in regular wage-earning employment other than as having the care of the dependent children of the person entitled to benefit, or is engaged in any occupation ordinarily carried on for profit."
I believe this Amendment is agreed on both sides of the Committee. The wording is taken from the wording that was put into the Section dealing with a resident housekeeper in the 1922 Act, and as far as I can see from reading the Debates, there was no objection and everyone agreed that the words had to be inserted. When we are now taking up the case of the non-resident housekeeper it is equally, if not more, necessary that the same words should be inserted. The object of putting them into the 1922 Act was to see that the payment went to someone who was more or less whole-time employed in looking after the children, in other words that nothing like the fraud of which we were afraid on the last Amendment but one might come into the question of the non-resident housekeeper. I believe there is some point that these words need not be put in, because they are implied by the wording of the Act. If that is so, perhaps they need not necessarily be inserted but. if there is any doubt about it, it is obvious that the non-resident housekeeper Clause should contain these words for the same reason that they were put into the Act for the resident housekeeper without any dissension.
I should like to assure the hon. and gallant Gentleman that the words are unnecessary. It is not merely that the proviso of 1922 is implied. It actually exists and it is the covering proviso for all these categories of dependants. Quite recently the umpire has had the matter under his observation and he has held that the proviso covers the extension to all these different categories of female dependants.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, in page 2, line 21, at the end, to insert the words:
I move this Amendment, because we have had cases of widowers whose dependant children have grown up and got out of dependency so far as the father is concerned, but in many instances where the father has a home and has a daughter, even though she may have been out of work, he has been glad to have her at home to manage the house because she has known his wants better than any strange woman coming into the House could do. Further, he does not desire, for moral reasons, to take in another woman from out of the street, or any house in the street. He preferably desires to have his daughter to manage his household affairs for him. I do not think there will be a very large number of people in this category and it cannot be a very heavy expense to the fund to grant this concession, but it will bring about a little better meed of justice to these people, and perhaps I might be able to get the support of hon. Members opposite who said just now that if you want a flat rate benefit you have to have a flat rate contribution. If this man, who is an insured person, loses his wife, you do not deduct anything from his contribution, but you ask him to go on paying as he did when his wife was living. Therefore we consider that it is only meting out justice, and I hope the Minister will be able to accept it without any demur on the ground of expense.
This is a very interesting point, but it very much widens the principle underlying the whole category of benefits. Under the existing legislation, for a claimant to be entitled to a dependant's allowance in respect of a housekeeper, the housekeeper must be residing with the claimant wholly or mainly maintained by him, having care of his dependant children. We have to-night added a Clause bringing the non-resident housekeeper inside that category, but everyone of those categories is linked with the care of dependant children. The moment you depart from that principle of the care of dependant children, you open a very wide door indeed. It is difficult to draw the line at a sister or, if you admit the sister, it is hard to draw the line at a cousin, or an aunt, or anyone else who might be there to look after the widower. It might be said that that is quite a desirable thing, but it is a real departure from the principle of the dependent child being the basis for the additional payment. The categories where the dependant's allowance is paid, apart from children, are the categories of the wife and mother. In those cases, if they are dependent upon the breadwinner, they get the benefit allowance. This Amendment widens the door to such an extent that I feel I must at this point draw the line and must very regretfully refuse to accept the Amendment.
Would the right hon. Lady, before we part from this Amendment, explain whether in the case where there are young children and an elder daughter, who is say 23, lives in the capacity of housekeeper, such a person would be included under the present proposal?
Oh, yes.; where there are young people, whether sister or daughter, it is so.
Amendment negatived.
I beg to move, in page 2, line 40, to leave out the words "and sisters," and to insert instead thereof, the words:
"half-brothers and step-brothers, and the younger sisters, half-sisters, and stepsisters."
My hon. Friends and I believe that if it is the intention to give children's allowances to all the dependants of a person, the latter part of paragraph ( e ) ought to be widened by the inclusion of these words. I hope that the Minister will regard these words as essential to the paragraph, and will accept the Amendment.
I am very happy to be able to say at once that I accept the insertion of these words. They are really what should have been in the Clause originally. It is to meet the case where the breadwinner has agreed to being put in in the place of the parent for younger brothers and sisters.
Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move, in page 3, line 6, at the end, to add the words:
"Provided that the claimant establishes the fact of dependency for at least six months before the claim to benefit is made."
I move this Amendment, because, as the Committee is aware, the provision is included in the Report of the Blanesburgh Committee I need not add the already well-known fact that the right hon. Lady was a member of that Committee. It was intended for a definite purpose, and it was intended to make dependency a real thing. If human nature is to be taken at its real value, it is 'obvious that any man who realises that he is likely to get benefit in respect of people to whom he is giving a little assistance, he will desire, naturally, to get as much benefit as possible. Therefore, it may be that for a week or for a fortnight he may raise the money to enable him to assist in the support of a number of people in respect of whom he will, under this Bill, be entitled to claim benefit. I submit that that is not a fair proposal for this Committee nor is it fair to this Measure. I feel, if dependancy is to be real and an accepted fact in this Measure, it should be definitely established that the dependants in respect of whom the claimant wants to receive benefit should be definite dependants for whom he is definitely, to some extent, responsible. I think that the Blanesburgh Committee were wise in submitting this recommendation.
I am sorry that I cannot accept this Amendment. I think that the hon. and gallant Gentleman cannot quite have understood the Clause. I have already agreed, in reply to a question put by an hon. Member on the back benches, to reconsider the wording, so that, if a man's wife dies during his period of unemployment, we shall be able to consider that point. That in itself would prohibit a six months' limitation period.
The hon. and gallant Gentleman is under a misapprehension. I have turned up the passage in the Blanesburgh Report, and I am sure that the hon. and gallant Gentleman has read "six months" in the wrong relation. The passage does not only apply to this Clause in the Bill, but refers to the question of unmarried wives. It is in page 69, and reads as follows:
"Now, however, the War Office has reverted to the pre-War practice of recognising only married wives for Separation Allowances. The unmarried wife is recognised for the purposes of War Pension but receives a lower rate than the married wife. Under the Unemployment Insurance Scheme, dependants benefit is allowed if the woman has been living with the claimant for a period of at least six months prior to the date and if the union is and has been on a bonâ fide domestic basis."
That six months does not relate to the particular proposal which is now before the Committee.
It seems an extraordinary thing that, whenever a reactionary Amendment is proposed to any Bill dealing with the unemployed worker, you can always find an army officer carrying the baby. These people want pensions for their ladies. Right through the history of this country we have had generals and admirals and other sorts of people—[An HON. MEMBER: "Leave them alone."] I am not touching them. They are not respectable enough. We find this class desiring to lay down all sorts of restrictions when it concerns only a matter of a few shillings a week for people of my class, but we usually discover that these people have got away with thousands a year. We find colonels—the colonels of the knuts. The only powder they ever smelt was the powder on a lady's face.
Is it in order for an hon. Member to make definite allegations which he cannot substantiate against another hon. Member?
If the hon. Member make a definite allegation against another hon. Member, he is entirely out of order. I did not under-stand it as such.
On a point of Order. It is somewhat difficult for my hon. and gallant Friend to deal with this matter. [HON. MEMBERS: "Are you the Colonel?"] No, but my hon. And gallant Friend is a soldier, and for the hon. Member for Silvertown (Mr. J. Jones) to say that he has never been on active service and has never smelt powder is deeply resented on this side of the House. I am sure that the hon. Member for Silvertown will be the first to withdraw the allegation that my hon. and gallant Friend has never been on active service, seeing that he has been on active service and that he served his country in the field.
If I did make such an allegation, I would immediately withdraw it. I never made such an allegation. What I did say was that there were some Colonels who have never smelt powder, except on a lady's face. [HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw! You are wriggling!"] No. If I have made a mistake, I withdraw the allegation, and defy the alligator.
In view of the explanation given by the right hon. Lady, I beg to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, in page 3, line 6, at the end, to add the words: to remember that the Bill is a great advance on any Bill produced by the late Government. With regard to this Amendment and subsequent Amendments which stand in my name, they are genuine attempts to remove hardships and to alleviate sufferings which have come to my notice through frequent contact with the unemployed in my constituency from week to week. The discussion which we have up to the present has dealt with the question of rates. This Amendment comes under a different category, because it deals with hardships. Whilst these hardships do not affect all the unemployed and do not cover such a large feeling of unemployed persons, those who do come within the ambit of these hardships suffer very much more, because when they come within it they are deprived of their benefits absolutely. This Clause relates to the Act of 1922. That Act deals primarily with the question of dependants. The first Clause of the Act of 1922 deals with the proviso concerning the payment to dependants. The proviso which I seek to alter, quite rightly, places upon the dependant the necessity of not being engaged in any occupation ordinarily carried on for profit.
I take it that that provision was to prevent an unemployed man drawing a dependant's allowance for his wife, where the wife was earning and, therefore, not dependent upon him. But the provision works out very differently. It works out like this, that when a man is unemployed, or is working short time, or is going to be unemployed, the wife in desperation often tries to earn a few shillings. Here is a typical case which came before me only last week, a decision given by the Court of Referees on 20th November. It was the case of the wife of a man in work who took up some amateur crochet work. She had never taken on that work before, and has never done it since. But on five occasions in four months she earned a few shillings. She earned a few shillings in May, and on three occasions in June, and the Committee will note that during this period the man was not unemployed. In August on one occasion she earned 18s. In the middle of August the man went on the register and was unemployed from August to September. During the whole of that time that man was disallowed dependent's benefit because his wife, in the period prior to his coming on to the register, had earned a few shillings by taking up work of this kind. There are various ways in which people augment their livelihood.
It seems perfectly clear to me that a disallowance like this, an interpretation of the Act of 1922 in this way, absolutely defeats the original intention of that Act, that dependents who are not earning are entitled to dependent's benefit, and if we can insert some safeguard, such as the word "normally" I have suggested, it would enable the Minister to make a recommendation to the employment officers or the Court of Referees which will enable these cases to be dealt with. A very much better alternative—I am not wedded to the word "normally"—would be for the Minister to put some maximum sum, preferably 9s., which a wife who is dependent could earn without being disallowed dependent's benefit. I move the Amendment in order to bring this great hardship to the notice of the Minister, and I am confident she will go as far as she can to meet us in this respect.
I hope that the hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. Malone) will be good enough to withdraw his Amendment in order that we may have a discussion upon a manuscript Amendment which, I understand, has been handed in by the hon. Member for Maryhill (Mr. Clarke). I would rather proceed on that line at this moment, and I should be glad if my hon. Friend can see his way to withdraw his Amendment.
Certainly. I beg to ask leave to withdraw my Amendment in order that we may have a discussion on the Amendment to be moved by my hon. Friend.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, in page 3, line 6, at the end, to add the words:
"( g ) In the proviso to Sub-section (1) of Section one of the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1922, the expression ' regular wage-earning employment 'shall not include an employment where the amount of wages earned is less than the increase in the weekly rate of benefit, and the expression 'occupation ordinarily carried on for profit ', shall not include the provision of board and accommodation for not more than one lodger as a member of the family."
There are cases where a woman whose husband is unemployed takes on casual jobs, each, possibly, lasting only for a few hours, such as a day's nursing, a day's washing, or a day's charing. The average remuneration would not come anywhere near the amount of the increase in the benefit. On the other hand, there are cases where, in a working-class family, there may be one boarder. We were assured by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Shettleston (Mr. Wheatley) this evening that more than 50 per cent. of the working-class houses are two-roomed houses. I come from Glasgow, where a considerable portion of the remainder of working-class homes consist of one room each, and where there are very few three-roomed houses. In such cases, it is absurd to suggest that the working-class people are in the habit of keeping lodging-houses, but they might, on occasion, take in one boarder, partly for the purpose of helping to keep the pot boiling, but in a large number of cases because at great inconvenience to themselves they are obliging some friend who has come to that district to secure employment. In a number of such cases we find that a man coming to a locality is given board and lodging by some family, and if the husband in that family falls out of work he loses benefit on the ground that he is carrying on an occupation for profit, which, strictly speaking, is not true. It seems manifestly unfair that where a young man of 26 or 27 years of age happens to be unemployed and has two or three children not older than 10 or 11 years, he should lose unemployment benefit if he has a boarder in the house, whereas on the next floor there may be a man of 50 or 60 years with no boarder, but with several members of his family bringing in contributions to the weekly income and he is not penalised. I do not think the right hon. Lady will have any difficulty in meeting us on this Amendment.
rose —
I think we ought to know whether the Minister is going to accept the Amendment or not.
If the right hon. Lady proposes to accept the Amendment, I do not wish to intervene.
I am sorry. I thought it was the wish of the Committee to go right ahead. I have very carefully scrutinised this manuscript Amendment since it came into my hands, and I think, undoubtedly, that it meets a deeply-felt injustice. I personally shall be very glad to accept this Amendment. It is undoubtedly true that a number of cases have come to our notice in which the boarder is taken not because they want to have a boarder, but because of the congested condition of the district, and indeed in many cases mine-owners have said to their men, "You must take a man in because there is no other room." It is not a question of profit, therefore, but of the necessities of the housing accommodation.
I want to ask a question about the words in the Amendment:
"is less than the increase in the weekly rate of benefit."
Will the Minister explain what that means and whether it includes the case of an unemployed man's wife working at charing?
The point is quite clear. The amount of the benefit received on her account is 9s., and whenever she receives less, it is not a "regular wage-earning employment."
Does that mean that if she earns 8s. in any capacity, by washing or whatever it may be, she is entitled also to draw the 9s.?
indicated assent.
The Committee is in a slight difficulty in dealing with a manuscript Amendment. The hon. Member gave me a copy of it, for which I am much obliged. I have been scrutinising it with some care, but I have not had the opportunity of going over it with other hon. Members on this side, and I prefer not to object to it at this stage. I think, however, it would be only reasonable to say that we shall need to look at it with a view to re-examining it on Report, and I wish to draw the attention of the Committee to the fact that it is undoubtedly increasing the difficulties of administration and the possibility of what is called inquisitorial examination. With each of these provisos that widens the ambit of the Fund you are turning it more and more into a relief fund and making it less and less a pure insurance fund, and, there- fore, the difficulties of administration are increased. The broadening of these categories, particularly by this last proviso about the keeping of lodgers or a lodger, is undoubtedly going to increase the amount of inquisition which will inevitably take place in the affairs of a family.
It will simplify the administration.
I am prepared to go into that between now and the Report stage, and therefore I am not voting against the Amendment at this stage but the Committee is in a difficulty in dealing with a manuscript Amendment, and we reserve our right to criticise the matter further on the Report stage
I agree with the right hon. Lady, and so do my colleagues, who have also had the courtesy of seeing a copy of this manuscript Amendment. We think it will simplify the administration on one side. The problem now is, "Does a wife wait on a lodger or not?" That is the sort of problem that has to be solved now, and this Amendment will undoubtedly simplify that problem, because it will wipe all that kind of question away.
I wish to clear up a certain amount of doubt that exists in the minds of a number of us here. The Amendment states:
"where the amount of wages earned is less than the increase in the weekly rate."
The increase in the weekly rate is 2s., and we would like the right hon. Lady to make it clear that it is not referring to the mere increase of 2s., but to the increased weekly rate rather than the increase in the weekly rate.
Nine shillings.
There is one difficulty in my mind. The hon. Member who moved the Amendment uses a phrase—
"shall not include an employment where the amount of wages earned is less than the increase in the weekly rate of benefit."
An hon. Member pointed out that the increase in the weekly rate of benefit is something very much smaller than the weekly rate of benefit. Is that the hon. Member's intention?
As I read it the intention of the Amendment is that it shall be nine shillings.
Cannot we amend the proposed Amendment to read—
"where the amount of wages earned is less than the increased weekly rate of benefit."
If you look at paragraph ( a ) you see that the amount is described, and it seems to me that the correct description of it is "increase in the rate of benefit," and not "increased rate of benefit" as suggested.
May we have the Amendment as it now stands with the suggested Amendment?
Question, "That those words be there added," put, and agreed to.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
On a point of Order. Are you taking the Amendment standing in my name—in page 3, line 6, at the end, to add the words:
"Provided that, notwithstanding anything contained in any such enactments, or in this section, such weekly rate of benefit shall not be increased in respect of any person who is in receipt of a pension under the Old Age Pensions Acts, 1908 and 1924, the Widows', Orphans', and Old Age Contributory Pensions Acts, 1925 and 1929, or the Blind Persons' Act, 1920."
I was told that it was out of place where printed, and that it would be taken later.
I am afraid that the hon. Member is too late now.
Are you calling the Amendment that stands in my name— in page 2, line 25, to leave out the words:
"has residing with him and."
I have put the Question, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part," and I cannot go back.
I want to refer to the question of dependants where the applicant and his wife are living apart, whether formally or informally, or temporarily or permanently. In these circumstances, proof of maintenance has to be shown, and the unemployed worker is entitled to draw benefit on behalf of the dependant, and it is paid, but where it is shown before a court that the unem- ployed man is not paying over the dependant's benefit to his separated wife, the court may convict and the benefit will be stopped. That is of no value to the dependant's wife, who is living in separation. I would like the Minister to consider at some appropriate time whether it would not be possible to issue instructions so that where the proof is shown and the dependant's benefit is not passed on to the wife, the court may instruct the appropriate officer to pay that money to the magistrate's clerk for transmission to the wife. I hope he will consider whether something of this sort can be done. It has been represented to me by a number of magistrates.
I would like some guidance to be given to us by the Minister on two points which have been raised in Amendments that have not been called. I am not complaining that the Amendments were not called. I only ask that some indication may be given to us as to the attitude of the Government, so that some of us may know what we should do in respect of this Clause. The Amendments to which I call attention are those in the name of myself and other hon. Members upon pages 219 and 220. The one on page 220 stands in the name of myself, the hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Mr. Harris), and my hon. Friend the Member for Leith (Mr. E. Brown). It asks that something should be done to provide instruction or education for all the young people to whom payments are to be made. This question was raised in relation to young people up to the age of 16, but the purpose of this Amendment was to call attention to the necessity of this being provided for all young people up to the age of 21. I am not introducing any new feature in mentioning that, because it was discussed in the Blanesburgh Report and was discussed by the Minister herself on Second Reading. In the Blanesburgh Report, upon page 39, there were certain passages to which I would call attention:
"In regard to the unemployment benefit of juveniles, we should consider it unfortunate if, as a result of receiving benefit through the Employment Exchanges, these young people were led to regard the Exchanges primarily as places for obtaining money when out of work—. Our desire is that the Exchanges shall be for them the places where they can, through the staff and the advisory committees, receive helpful guidance for their future careers. It is at this age that industrial workers are made or marred, and we are convinced of the necessity of providing them when out of work with suitable industrial instruction and training."
Later the paragraph went on to say:
"Indeed, if we had not been recommending that useful training should be provided —if necessary, even out of any surplus in the fund—some of us would not have agreed to reduce the existing scale of benefits for juveniles, and others would have insisted that juvenile benefit should be abolished altogether."
That only applies to boys and girls under 16. The report continues:
"Training is scarcely less important in the case of young men and women from 18 to 21, and we earnestly desire that in their case also facilities for training will be available or made available to ' the greatest possible extent."
The Minister of Labour also spoke of her ideal in relation to the training of young people, and she said in the Debate on the Second Reading of this Bill:
"I decided to increase the rate of benefit for young persons under 21, because the low rates recommended in the Blanesburgh Report were conditional on training being given as a secondary benefit. This secondary benefit was only given to a limited extent by the last Government, and can, in fact, only be given by degrees. I am pressing on with that, and I want to reach the point when every young person under 21 who is unemployed shall have some form of training during his period of unemployment. But it is impossible in three months' time to reach that stage, and therefore I have to make certain adjustments."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 21st November, 1929; col. 751, Vol. 232.]
I accept the statement of the Minister of Labour as to the impossibility of dealing with this question within three months. I think it will be impossible to deal with it in six months. I do not want to quote a speech which the Minister of Labour made in the Debates on the Bill of 1927, but nothing I could say could be so eloquent as the words she used in regard to the danger that might arise if those young people under 21 years of age were allowed to be idle in their unemployment, and were deprived of an opportunity that would give them proper training. The Amendment I suggested was not obligatory, and it did not oblige the Government to get this work done in a limited time; but it did suggest that, wherever possible, instruction should be set up, that the payment of un- employment benefit should be dependent upon attendance at some course of instruction, and that this should apply up to the age of 21. I want a provision of that kind put into the Bill as an expression of our ideal instead of being simply expressed in the Second Reading speech of the Minister of Labour because the present Minister of Labour may go to some other Department, and I cannot see any office of the Crown in which she would not be able to serve with distinction to herself. I noticed that many of those sitting on the Labour benches speak of "hon. Members opposite." I wish they would make a distinction, and speak of "those sitting above the Gangway."
"Ships are but boards, sailors but men; there be land rats and water rats."
I will not elaborate the matter any further. In view of the uncertainty of the existence of the Government would it not be wise for the Minister to express in the Bill itself her own ideal which she expressed on the Second Reading, and also expressed in the previous Debates in 1927. There is another Amendment in the names of several hon. Members on this side which asks that the unemployment benefit for juveniles of 16, and even up to the age of 18, should be paid to the mother and not directly to the boy or girl. I know that raises a very important issue, but all we argue is that the payment of this benefit should be on the ground of need and actual cost of upkeep, and we only want to ensure that it shall be used for that purpose. No valid objection can be raised to that, and some of us would be helped in coming to a decision on this Clause if we knew what was to be the attitude of the Government towards this proposal. It is a question of deciding only through which channel the money shall flow, and some of us would very much more readily support the Clause if we could be assured that the money was to be used for boots, clothing, and food and for the betterment of the young people.
I should like to ask one question, for I am very much interested in this suggestion. Does the hon. Member suggest that the parent of a boy should go to the Exchange and receive the benefit? If not, how is he to receive it and how are the objects aimed at to be guaranteed.
It is not intended that the parent should go to the Exchange, but surely it is not beyond the wit of the Government to devise machinery by which that money can be drawn by the mother? Machinery could certainly be devised to secure that, and, if it can be done, I believe it would be approved generally throughout the country. I am not going to put the arguments as fully as they could be put, and all I ask is that it shall be considered. It may be that some indication of the Government's attitude can be made at this stage before the vote is taken. This suggestion is made, because we want to improve the Bill. A very eloquent phrase was used by the Minister in the Second Heading Debate, when she said that she was submitting the Bill to the collective wisdom of the House. It is upon those two lines that we have suggested that an improvement could be effected. If some indication can be given by the Minister to the effect that our proposals will receive her sympathetic consideration, I am quite sure it would be easier for some hon. Members, who demur a little to the increased payments that have been suggested in the Bill.
I am very glad to have the opportunity of answering the points raised. The first point was raised by the hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. Malone) on the question of payment to the wife who has received a separation order. That raises the principle of the inalienability of the benefit. The benefit is the man's benefit, and, if he is not supporting a wife, he does not get the dependant's benefit. If a maintenance order is made against him in favour of a separated wife, then it is for the clerk to collect it or to see to it that the maintenance order is fulfilled. He gets the benefit only if he maintains a separated wife. Therefore, on this point raised I feel it would not be possible to consider further the Amendment which the hon. Member for Northampton has suggested.
Coming to the points raised by the hon. Member for Bodmin (Mr. Foot), I was very glad to hear my own words quoted on this subject As the House knows it is a matter which I have followed very closely ever since I have been in the House. I can only undertake on behalf of the Department, that we shall proceed, with the utmost rapidity possible, to develop every form of training centre, in- structional classes or even individual tuition, in conjunction with the Education department, the Treasury, and the local education authorities. I do not see my way to go farther than the promise I have already made to reconsider, before the Report stage, the paragraph dealing with the categories of claimants below 18 years of age. That group is receiving my personal consideration now; I do not want to wait even until the Bill is passed before I go on to developments which I believe are possible. But we are dealing with a group whose members have been wage-earners for a considerable period. You cannot treat them as children, and they have to be brought into this arrangement on a voluntary basis. If you force them into it without their consent you are not going to get good results. But I am profoundly convinced of the importance of training and of getting as many as possible of these young people, up even to 21 and 25 and 30 years of age, in order that mental development can be proceeded with during periods of unemployment.
With regard to the other matter raised, I find myself curiously in disagreement with the hon. Member for Bodmin. This question of the paying over of the benefit of the juvenile has been very carefully considered by the National Advisory Council, and if hon. Members read the Report they will find that the Council specifically demur from the idea that a child must not be trusted with the money. We must remember also that we are dealing with children who are in fact wage-earners. It would not be right to ask the mother to collect the child's wages, and it would not be right to ask her to handle the benefit. The child must be trusted to take it home. If I may be permitted a personal reminiscence, my own mother would have been ashamed of me if at the age of 15 I could not have been trusted with 6s. a week. For these reasons I cannot undertake to reconsider that point, because I am profoundly convinced that we have to develop self-reliance in the children, and this matter of handling a few shillings a week is one within their own competence.
I trust that the Minister will be kind enough to explain a point that has caused a little difficulty amongst some hon. Members on this side of the Committee. It is with regard to the non-resident housekeeper. Sub-section (2, b ) contains the words:
"…. continues to employ a female person who is not residing with him to assist in the care of his dependent children, and has paid and continues to pay to that female person not less than nine shillings per week by way of remuneration for her services, the weekly rate shall be increased by nine shillings."
My question is this: Suppose that a man has been paying this woman less than 9s. a week, what would be his position? Say that the payment was 5s. a week. Would he get 5s. for the dependant housekeeper, or would he get nothing at all? That point wants to be made plain. Do I understand that a man who has been paying a non-resident housekeeper less than 9s. a week does not get a penny piece?
Yes.
11.0 p.m.
I think the Committee, and indeed the country, should realise to what we are committed in this Clause. As far as I can see, agriculture, among other things, will pay for the whole of it and is not going in any way to benefit from the increased charges that are necessary. This is one more nail in the coffin of the Socialist party. We have seen, in the Debates on this Clause, as well as on Clause 1, the utmost disagreement in the party opposite. We have seen them forced into the Lobby against pledges which were given at the last Election by members of their own party, who have tried to support those pledges, well knowing that the country cannot afford it. I would remind hon. Members from industrial areas of what the position will be when they go back to their constituents with the promises that were made at the last Election. It is one of the worst examples of political insolence that has ever been seen in the history of this country. More than that, we have seen the Liberal party no longer bearing their well known name of "patient oxen," but with a new name devised by their own party—the "dumb sheep" of the Socialist party. I would point out that these are not words which were used by the Conservative party, but by their own party. That is a pretty state of affairs. It is said that 9s. is the amount which it is proposed to allow under paragraph ( a ). [ Interruption. ] I think that this party, when they go to the country, which I hope will be before very long, will go with renewed hope, with the knowledge that the Socialist party is hopelessly divided, and with confidence in the justice of their own cause.
I should like to bring the Committee back to a few of the wider considerations of this Clause. Under it we are committing the country to an expenditure of £l,750,000, and we have never had any explanation from the Front Government Bench of the grounds upon which they think that the country can afford this vast expenditure. Another consideration on which I should like to hear the right hon. Lady's views is that, so far as I have been able to follow, she has never explained to the Committee the grounds upon which she has made the particular changes in benefits which are involved in this Clause. I would remind her—she may not have the opportunity now, but perhaps at some later date she may be able to go into detail on the subject—of the decision of the Blanesburgh Committee on the whole question of dependants' benefit, which she will find on page 38 of the Report which she herself signed. There it is stated that:
"The rates finally resolved upon are an adjustment of conflicting views, but they have in the minds of all of us "—
including herself—
"their justification in principle."
Then the Report explains to a certain extent how the apportionments are made, and at the bottom of page 39 it says:
"Taking as a whole the scale of benefits as we have finally adjusted it, our purpose has been to apportion the available money according to need, but so also as to correct features of the existing practice which in some cases have been attended by undesirable results."
I would ask the right hon. Lady to tell us here and now what are the grounds upon which, in this year 1929, she has thought fit to alter the decision reached, after the most searching inquiry, by a Committee of which she was herself so distinguished a member only two years ago, particularly in view of the fact that no one can claim that the position to-day with regard to national finance or with the prospects of employment in this country is any more rosy than it was then. That is the point upon which I think the Committee would be grateful for the right hon. Lady's views, because, surely, she has not done it arbitrarily, without having taken into account any reasons for this increase in benefits. I hope the right hon. Lady will see fit at some stage in our proceedings to pay some greater attention to finance than she has so far done during the Debates.
When we leave Clause 2 we leave for good the question of the amount of benefit to be conferred by the Bill. Those with whom I am associated will have practically no alternative but to go into the Lobby in support of the proposition that the Clause stand part of the Bill, but I wish to make clear the position we occupy and to ask one question. The Debates that have taken place on the Amendments to the Clause have been the most remarkable I have heard in my short experience of the House. On almost every Amendment the attitude of the Minister has been that she sympathised with the Amendment and would like to concede it, but has been unable to do so because money has not been available. At no stage has there been present any representative of the Treasury. I can conceive four grounds which a Treasury Minister might have advanced for being unwilling to provide the necessary money to meet the Amendments that have been moved. One is that the money was not available in the country. The second might have been that, although available in the country, it was not available to the Chancellor. The third might have been that in relation to other items of Government expenditure, the Government could afford no more upon the objects of the Bill, and the fourth might have been that the objects of the Bill itself were not intrinsically worthy of a greater expenditure than the Government has offered under the Bill. [An HON. MEMBER: "The first one is right!] I think none of these four grounds is right, and none will bear investigation, and that lends to the Government attitude an importance which transcends the Clause itself and goes infinitely beyond the whole boundaries of the Bill, because it must be taken as an indication of general Government policy which is bound, unless it is modified, to lead to repeated conflict between the benches above and below the Gangway. I assert first that the first reason that the money is not available in the country is not a true reason. The Liberal party, which undertook, if it were returned to power, to find sums running into hundreds and millions for the solution of the unemploymen problem—
They did not undertake to find it but to spend it.
The Liberal party which undertook to find hundreds of millions to solve the unemployment problem—I hope that is not misrepresenting the position—at least will not maintain that the money is not in the country, whether it is immediately available for the Exchequer or not. The Members on the benches opposite above the Gangway may maintain that the money is not present in the country, but they have used that plea so often and so groundlessly that nobody will believe them if they do say that it is not in the country. The second suggestion is, that although it is in the country it may not be available to the State, and it will not be available until such time as the Government have the opportunity of introducing their own Budget in this House. I said yesterday, and I repeat it to-night, that the doctrine that a Government in any period of one year cannot spend more than the revenue received during that year is a doctrine which does not find acceptance below the Gangway on this side of the House. [ Laughter. ] Eight hon. Gentlemen opposite laugh. They themselves, again and again, during the war period sanctioned over-spending by the Government of the day not to the tune of the £10,000,000 or £11,000,000 involved in this Bill but to the tune of hundreds of millions.
The third reason might be, that set in relation to other items of Government expenditure no more can be afforded on the objects of this Bill than has been provided. I cannot help contrasting the attitude of the Government on the moneys involved in this Bill with the attitude of the Government in regard to the passage of Bills for dealing with the unemployment problem. Under those Bills the Government have asked for, powers and have been given powers to place sums of money running into scores of millions of pounds behind various industrial enterprises in this country. To a very great extent those enterprises are private capitalist enterprises. It compares ill with our alleged Socialist programme on this side of the House when the Government can find millions of money with which to subsidise capitalism in this country but cannot find the money asked for in the proposed Amendments to Clause 2 of this Bill. The last of the four reasons was a suggestion that the objects of the Bill themselves are not intrinsically worthy of a greater expenditure than the Government is providing. When this Government were returned to office, they were returned on a programme which was nominally, at least, a Socialist programme. They were returned upon a programme designed to supersede the capitalist system in this country, and to put a decent social order in its place.
Is it in order to discuss the whole question of the capitalist state of society on this particular Clause, especially seeing that we have come to an arrangement to end the whole business by 12 o'clock.
I was following the hon. Member's remarks. He is getting rather far from the question before the Committee.
I hope that if I have gone too far, I shall come back at once. I hope hon. Members will listen tolerantly to what I hope is a reasoned statement of my point of view. The Government may be forgiven if, in their minority situation, they do not attempt to embark upon fundamental Socialist legislation in this House, but they cannot be forgiven in the light of their solemn Election promises—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] Hon. Members will not cheer so much in a moment. The Government cannot be forgiven if, in the light of their promises at the Election, they fail to use every ounce of Parliamentary power that they possess to make the lot of the unemployed victims of capitalism very much more tolerable than it is going to be under the terms of this Bill. The Government have justified the Bill on the ground that it is not the final Bill, but an instalment of their final Bill. There is a grave doubt whether the subsequent instalments—
The remarks of the hon. Member are more appropriate to the Third Reading of the Bill than to the Question now before the Committee.
I will not trespass upon your patience more than a few seconds longer, but I hope that I shall be allowed to make this point, that the Government's own justification for their refusal to accept our Amendments to Clause 2 is that they cannot do more at the present juncture, but that at a later stage they will be willing to do more. I am one of many on this side of the House who doubt not the willingness of the Government or the honesty of the Government, but the ability of the Government, on a forecast of the future development of things in this House, to produce the subsequent instalment referred to, as a reason for not giving more at the present time. The party above the Gangway opposite dare not vote against the Government on a critical issue. Until that party has discovered a common policy and a common leadership it dare not face another election. The party below the Gangway opposite—a party for which my respect has enormously increased since I have been in this House, because I find that its Members have the least tendency of any party to indulge in idle interruption and mere abuse—is in no better position to face another general election at this stage than the party above the Gangway.
The hon. Member must come back to the Question, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
The point I am trying to argue—
The Clause deals with the rates of benefit; and the question is that the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill.
That is the point I am trying to argue, that unless these rates are increased now there is grave danger that the Government will not be in a position to increase them later. The time of the Government's power is now, not two or three years hence—[ Interruption ]—and it seems to me to be not merely common honesty but good Parliamentary and political tactics to use the power which is available now to give the biggest increases possible while the political situation permits the Government to carry them through and not wait until a time when it is highly unlikely that they will be in that position. I want the Minister of Labour to tell us that within 12 months we shall have a new unemployment Bill, which will bring the rates of benefit and the conditions of benefit up to the point indicated by our election speeches.
The hon. Member is trying to teach me the Rules of the House. I shall be obliged if he will obey my Ruling.
With great respect, I have not attempted to teach anybody the Rules of the House. I have given way to you Sir—[ Interruption ]—every time; I have listened with great respect to what you have said, and I have tried to conform as closely as I could to a ruling which I have sometimes been tempted to question—[ Interruption ].
The hon. Member must pay attention to my Ruling and must confine himself to the Clause under discussion. He has no right to make remarks as to whether he agrees with my Rulings or not.
On at least four or five occasions you have risen to call me to order in regard to what I have tried to make a reasoned criticism of the Government's attitude on Clause 2. As you rightly point out it deals with benefits. My argument has been directed to show that the only grounds upon which a refusal to increase the benefits is justified by the Government are grounds which will not bear examination. The right time to increase them is now, and not in a later Bill. With great respect, I submit that that kind of argument is cogent to Clause 2 and is not outside the Rules of Order. The question I want to ask is this. In view of the suggestion that the justification for not increasing the rates is the suggestion of another Bill at a subsequent date, I ask the Minister of Labour whether she can hold out any hope that that Bill will be introduced within the next 12 months. That question, I submit, is relevant to this Clause, and the reply may have some effect upon the attitude of some of us towards the Clause. It should be answered before we take a vote on the matter. I shall be grateful if the right hon. Lady, who has been bearing not merely her own sins but the sins of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, can give me answer to that question.
I belong to the same class as the hon. Member, and may I suggest that when he has a spare half hour from obstructing his own leaders he will turn to a book which both of us have read with delight "Tom Brown's Schooldays," where he will find an extraordinary fine analysis of the qualities of the class to which we both belong. One of those qualities, if I may say so, has not been apparent in the speech just delivered by the hon. Member, or in his attitude towards the rights of other Members, namely a sense of humour. A sense of humour, as I understand it, means a sense of proportion and I put it to him that it would have been quite easy for Members sitting here, or above the Gangway, in the course of the Debates on Clause 2, to have embarrassed not only the Government but the hon. Member himself and his Friends. He and his Friends have not gone quite as far inside the House of Commons as they have gone outside in the country on the question of these rates of benefit. I have carried in my pocket for more than nine months a paragraph which contains the suggestion not merely of the Trade Union Congress, but of the Independent Labour Party and the Parliamentary Labour Party, of £l and 10s. and 5s. which is the maintenance scale— and which the right hon. Lady has not been able to meet in this Clause—and it contains another set of proposals, called "full maintenance" for 30s., 17s. 6d. and 17s. 6d. That has been advocated in support of the policy which the hon. Member and his Friends have more moderately put in their Amendments. I suggest that before we part with this Clause we Members who have sat silent—
You have a sense of humour there at any rate.
The hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) does not touch me there, because if there is any Member here who listens to more speeches than I do, then I shall be very happy to meet him at any time. On this particu- lar matter, we have sat silent although we might quite easily, instead of moving for 1s. in the case of married women and 5s. for the children, have moved for 5s. and 10s. and even then we would not have come up to the full maintenance scale advocated in their electioneering outside, by certain hon. Members opposite and some of their friends in Glasgow and other places. We did not do so. We have never pledged ourselves either to the scale to which the Government pledged itself, or the full scale to which those hon. Members opposite, who have been rather moderate in their demands during the discussion of the Bill, have pledged themselves when they have been electioneering in the backwaters of the great cities of the land. Why did we not do so? Because some of us have made calculations without waiting for the calculations of the right hon. Lady. Personally, I made my own calculation as to rates of benefit on an unemployment roll of 1,200,000—that is to say, men over 18, 976,000, women, 160,000, boys, 34,000, and girls, 34,000, with dependants, adults and children, running into another 1,250,000. I find that if the maintenance scale were fully carried out—and it has not been attempted in the partial Amendments moved by the Clyde-side Members—it would have cost £51,000,000 a year, while, if the "full maintenance" to which I have alluded had been carried out, it would have cost £143,000,000 a year. Those who have sat silent and have not voted or interfered in the disputes between the Front Bench and the back benchers opposite, on these matters must not be taken as having one whit less sympathy—any more than the Front Bench opposite has less sympathy—with the people who need benefit, than the 18 or 20 Members who have gone into the Division Lobbies as an earnest of their own sincerity. It is a very difficult situation and I hope personally I shall never find myself again in the Committee stage of a Bill, where we as Oppositions, shall have to sit listening to Debates of this kind; where attempts are being made in all parts of the Committee, except on the part of a handful of Members, to help the Government to get their business through and where we then find Amendments directed by hon. Members opposite against their own Front Bench, in all sincerity—and yet hon. Members must know, in their hearts, that their own Government is in no position to finance the proposals in those Amendments when the next Budget comes.
As one of the "dumb driven cattle" who have been referred to, I want to break my silence for a very brief space of time. I and many of my comrades have sat on these benches during the last two days listening to bitter taunts and lectures delivered to us from lofty ethical altitudes as to our failure to redeem our pledges and as to our betrayal of the working people. I am prepared to concede that there are certain of my comrades who may have the title to stand up in this House and address us in that superior fashion, but there is one particular right hon. Gentleman, who has taken a very distinguished part in this Debate, and I challenge very flatly his right to stand up here and lecture us in this fashion.
There was a proposal before the Committee to-night to increase the rate of allowances for children from 2s. to 5s. We were told that 2s. for a child was a cruel, callous, inhumanitarian rate. It may be that it is, but if it is a cruel, callous, inhumanitarian rate in 1929, it was in exactly the same category in 1924. I find that the right hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. Wheatley), when he was: Minister of Health, was confronted with a demand from the Sheffield Board of Guardians for more money, and he told them that before they could have any more money they must cut down their half-yearly expenditure by £20,000. That was the ultimatum of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Shettleston to the Sheffield Board of Guardians when they were in a quandary. They must have the money, and they gave way before this ultimatum, and revised their scales of relief in such a fashion as to provide that from the third child onwards there should be an allowance of only 2s. a week of outdoor relief for the children who had to go to the board of guardians. So that the right hon. Gentleman forced the Sheffield Board of Guardians in 1924 to pay only 2s. a week to the children, and yet he comes along in 1929 and lectures us in the most superior fashion because the Government at the present time are prepared to carry on the same policy.
The right hon. Gentleman is possibly a great believer in large families. I remember that when, as representing a great demand on the part of working-class women, we tried to get him, as Minister of Health, to help those women to get information which might prevent them having families of an abnormal size, we found he was most adamant.
The hon. Member must keep to the Clause.
I merely wanted to draw attention to the fact generally that the right hon. Gentleman appears to be in favour of large families for the working classes. The hon. Lady who spoke earlier in the evening, and made such an admirable speech, gave us certain statistics from Professor Bowley, showing that he had estimated that a family consisting of a man and wife and three children needed at least 43s. 11d. a week in order to meet the bare necessaries of existence. The right hon. Member for Shettleston believes in large families. He probably believes in families exceeding five considerably—they may go up to 10—but what did he say to the Sheffield Board of Guardians? He said: "Under no consideration, however desperate may be the plight of the family, shall you, with my permission, pay any family, however large it may be, more than a maximum of £2 a week." That is the only point I wanted to make, and I repeat, if there be any Member of this House entitled to criticise the Government for their niggardly scale of benefits, that Member is certainly not the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Shettleston.
Some of us during the past few days have been living a very miserable life. Our hearts have been with the Clydeside, and our heads have inclined us to go into the Government Lobby. It is not because we are not sincere in our desire for these higher scales of relief or benefit for the unemployed. We cannot be charged with not being sincere on the question of unemployment. I had to maintain a wife and three children on the unemployment scale under a Conservative Government, and I know what it means. Under the scale we could not get the necessaries of life, and my wife is aged before her time because of the poverty of unem- ployment. She is younger than me, but her hair is going grey. I cannot, therefore, be charged with being insincere on the question of unemployment benefit, and I do not think that these benefits are adequate to give the unemployed a reasonable standard of maintenance. I do not believe that any hon. Member on either side of the Committee thinks so. As a new Member, I have been bewildered by the currents and crosscurrents which have been going through the House during the passage of this Bill, but I feel that the bandying about of words concerning the sincerity and insincerity is entirely beside the point. Every Member must have one guide, and one alone, and that is one's own conscience, and, if one uses one's brains and follows one's conscience to the best of one's ability, that should be sufficient.
I have been silent in these Debates, and the only thing that has held me back is the fear that any expression of hostility or criticism towards the Government should be taken as a purely anti-Government attitude. I feel that the Government ought to have the support of the back benches during the passage of this Bill, because I realise the difficulty of the position in which they are placed. One thing that has deterred meat times from going against the Government has been the volume of derisive cheers from the other side of the Committee. I would remind hon. Members on the other side that this Bill, bad as it is, is better than their Bill. If hon. Members below the Gangway opposite really believe that this Clause ought to go further than it does, then they must-be prepared to see that some of their rich friends foot the bill. Hon. Members opposite try to make us believe that they are in favour of these things; when it comes to footing the bill, I hope they will be just as sincere as they want us to believe that they are on this occasion. Those of us who have been returned for working-class constituencies have to keep in mind, when considering the rates of benefit, how best we can render service to the unemployed. Can we render best service to the unemployed by opposing the Bill, delaying its passage and perhaps wrecking it, or can we render them the best service by giving support to the Bill and urging upon the Front Bench to see to it that as soon as is humanly possible another Bill is brought forward in which we shall be able to accede to the demands which have been made from the back benches? I am pleased to have had the opportunity of trying to express my difficulties on the position. I hope we shall get the Bill through and thus give the unemployed at least an instalment of what was promised them at the last election, and in the hope that the Government will run its full course of five years, and during that period will be able to give them the full scale of benefit on which the election was fought.
I am aware that the Committee does not want to hear anybody at this time of night, but there is a point about juvenile employment centres on which I should like some information. The right hon. Lady thought that she could formulate plans for centres for those over 18, but did not seem to be quite certain about the children from 14 to 16. I beg the right hon. Lady not only to remember her own record and everything she has said but also to remember that she may not always occupy her present position, and may be succeeded by some one who does not know so much about juvenile unemployment; they may talk about it, but they will not know about it. It is not so much a question of the benefits, but we are horrified that the hon. Lady should have dared to bring in the one without the other. For four years we sat opposite and heard the supporters of the present Labour Government saying what they would do when they took office, and one of the chief things was making provision for unemployed juveniles. [ Interruption. ] Really, hon. Members who have only recently come to Westminster cannot conceive of what we had to listen to when we were the Government. There has been talk about 2s. for a child. I remember the earlier insurance Bill which gave 1s. for a child. At that time, I dared to remark, "Well, at least it is better than nothing," and in three elections I have been reminded of that remark all through my constituency. It has been said "Lady Astor says 1s. is enough for a child." We have suffered heavily by being told we were heartless when it was a question of 1s. for a child. We might say the same of hon. Members opposite. None of us has ever thought that 2s., or 5s., was enough for some children. Hon. Members opposite talk about the inadequacy of the benefits allowed under the present Act, but I should like to remind them that it was never contended that unemployment insurance would be enough to keep a whole family. What we did say at the time of the passing of the Act was that the scale was as much as the country could afford. During the discussions on this Bill, the Minister of Labour has had a horrible time, and my heart aches for her. I recollect when the Labour party sat on this side of the House that we were told that we were hard-hearted in these matters and that we did not represent the working classes. What do they mean by that? Do they not know that every hon. Member sitting on the Conservative benches has been returned mainly by the votes of working men and women? I am very glad that this Debate has taken place, because I think it will be an eye-opener to those hon. Members who have described our intentions as humbug.
I ask the Minister of Labour and the Committee to remember that my objection to the proposal of the Government is that they have not made any plans for the adequate provision of training centres for unemployed young persons. We all know that the right hon. Lady hoped to do a great deal more, but I do not think that what she has proposed is at all satisfactory. Nobody knows better than the Minister of Labour that every committee which has considered this question has reported that unemployment pay without training would be an absolute menace. I feel that until the right hon. Lady has provided that training she ought to wait and face the situation with courage, because she will have to face it one way or the other. If the Minister of Labour had waited until her plans for training centres had been formulated and had then come forward and said, "This is the situation; we need more money for the establishment of training centres," she would have had the support of the whole House, because juvenile unemployment is a thing in which the whole country is deeply interested. This Debate has been a healthy thing for the House, but I do not think it will turn out to be healthy for the Government, because people, after reading some of the speeches, will say, "What a lot of humbugs they are."
I am quite sure it will make for speed if I am allowed to say one or two words. I merely want to say that I do not think that the promises referred to by the hon. Member for Leith (Mr. E. Brown) were propagated by any section of the Labour party.
There are many statements propagated at elections which would not be made in places where reporters are present. I said that the Clydeside Members pledged themselves to a full scale of maintenance when electioneering in the backwaters of our great cities, but that they were more moderate in their demands in the House.
I am inclined to think that the hon. Member was just a little bit unfair in accusing myself and my colleagues of propagating this idea.
I should not like to be unfair. I intended to say these things are propagated on the scale of full maintenance in the back courts of the land. If I did not make that clear, I am glad to have the opportunity to do so.
Now that my own character is exonerated, I do admit quite definitely that there are Socialist and Communist agitators who take very generous views as to what this House ought to do. My friends and myself come here with much more modest demands. We are very sorry that the House has refused to grant these scales which we believe are well within the competence of the Government and the resources of the country to give. I do not think that during the course of the Debate I have cast any doubts on the sincerity of any Member. I think the leaders of my party are making a profound mistake—and this House also—in not trying to get ahead of the social problems of this country instead of dragging along at the tail of them as we have been doing for 20 years. This is a great opportunity of which we have not taken full advantage. I do not think the Members who have been associated with me are deserving of the personal attacks which have been made, such as that which the hon. Member for Shoreditch (Mr. Thurtle) made on the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Shettleston (Mr. Wheatley). He neglected the ordinary courtesy which is usually observed in this House, of informing an hon. Member in advance when a personal attack is to be made upon him.
May I explain? I sat in the House the whole of the evening trying to get an opportunity to speak, and that opportunity was denied me. I had given up all intention of speaking, but, when I saw hon. Members on this side were continuing the discussion and attacking the Government, I did feel then, although I did not see the right hon. Gentleman, that I was entitled to say my little piece.
I certainly think the hon. Gentleman was entitled to say his piece, but, when he was in the House all the evening waiting for the opportunity to speak, and with the right hon. Gentleman sitting within reach, it would have been an easy matter for him to have turned round and said: "I am proposing to go for you at the earliest opportunity." The right hon. Gentleman would then have been present. My recollection of the Sheffield incident during the period of the previous Labour Government is very distinctly different from that of the hon. Member for Shore-ditch. He made the terrible accusation that my right hon. Friend believes in large families. I do not know what published evidence there is of that. His own family consists of two—a girl and a boy—and he has often assured me that if the boy had been the elder there would have been no second.
Did the hon. Gentleman give notice to his right hon. Friend that he was going to make that statement?
I have a general parole in that respect. I think that what my hon. Friend the Member for Shoreditch means is that my right hon. Friend the former Minister of Health was not prepared to adopt the methods of family limitation of which he himself has been such an earnest propagandist, but in that view the right hon. Gentleman had a large majority of this House behind him. I think it was going rather beyond the brink to drag that in, in order to obscure the very simple and plain issue that the group with which the right hon. Gentleman is associated brought before this Committee. It is a matter of very great regret to me that we are leaving this Clause as it is in the Committee stage, and that the party with which I am associated and of which I have been proud, has been satisfied with the very
niggardly provisions that are in the Clause.
Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 252; Noes, 139.
Division No. 75.] AYES. [11.56 p.m. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (File, West) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Mathers, George Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Groves, Thomas E. Matters, L. W,. Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Grundy, Thomas W. Maxton, James Aitchison, Rt. Hon. Craigie M. Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Messer, Fred Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro') Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Middleton, G. Alpass, J. H. Hall, Capt. W. P. (Portsmouth, C.) Mills, J. E. Ammon, Charles George Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn) Milner, J. Angell, Norman Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Zetland) Morgan, Dr. H. B. Arnott, John Harris, Percy A. Morley, Ralph Aske, Sir Robert Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh) Ayles, Walter Hastings, Dr. Somerville Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South)' Barnes, Alfred John Haycock, A. W. Mort, D. L. Batey, Joseph Hayday, Arthur Moses, J. J. H. Beckett, John (Camberwell, Peckham) Hayes, John Henry Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent) Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Mosley, Sir Oswald (Smethwick) Bennett, Captain E.N. (Cardiff, Central) Henderson, Arthur, junr. (Cardiff, S.) Muff, G. Bennett, William (Battersea, South) Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) Muggeridge, H. T. Benson, G. Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) Murnin, Hugh Bentham, Dr. Ethel Herriotts, J. Nathan, Major H. L. Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale) Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth) Naylor, T. E. Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter). Bowen, J. W. Hollins, A. Noel Baker, P. J. Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Hopkin, Daniel Oldfield, J. R. Brockway, A. Fenner Hore-Belisha, Leslie. Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston) Bromfield, William Horrabin, J. F. Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley) Bromley, J. Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) Owen, Major G. (Carnarvon) Brooke, W. Hunter, Dr. Joseph Palin, John Henry Brothers, M. Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R. Palmer, E. T. Brown, C. W. E. (Notts. Mansfield) Isaacs, George Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Brown, Ernest (Leith) Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Perry, S. F. Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) John, William (Rhondda, West) Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Brown, W. J. (Wolverhampton, West) Jones, F. Llewellyn-(Flint) Phillips, Dr. Marion Buchanan, G. Jones, J. J. (West Ham. Silvertown) Potts, John S. Burgess, F. G. Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne) Price, M. P. Burgin, Dr E. L. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Pybus, Percy John Caine, Derwent Hall- Jones. T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Quibell, D. J. K. Cameron, A. G. Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. Ramsay, T. B. Wilson Cape, Thomas Jowitt, Rt. Hon. Sir W. A. Rathbone, Eleanor Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.) Kelly, W. T. Raynes, W. R. Charleton, H. C. Kennedy, Thomas Richards, R. Chater, Daniel Kinley, J. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Cluse, W. S. Lang, Gordon Riley, Ben (Dewsbury) Cocks, Frederick Seymour Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George Ritson, J. Compton, Joseph Lathan, G. Romeril, H. G. Daggar, George Law, A. (Rosendale) Rosbotham, D. S. T. Dallas, George Lawrence, Susan Rowson, Guy Denman, Hon. R. D. Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge) Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter Dickson, T. Lawson, John James Salter, Dr. Alfred Dudgeon, Major C. R. Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle) Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen) Dukes, C. Leach, W. Samuel, H. W. (Swansea, West) Duncan, Charles Lee, Frank (Derby, N. E.) Sanders, W. S. Ede, James Chuter Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern) Sandham, E. Edge, Sir William Lees, J. Sawyer, G. F. Edmunds, J. E. Lewis, T. (Southampton) Scrymgeour, E. Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Lindley, Fred W. Scurr, John Edwards, E. (Morpeth) Lloyd, C. Ellis Sexton, James Egan, W. H. Longbottom, A. W. Shakespeare, Geoffrey H. Elmley, Viscount Longden, F. Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Foot, Isaac Lovat-Fraser, J. A. Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Forgan, Dr. Robert Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) Sherwood, G. H. Freeman, Peter McElwee, A. Shield, George William Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) McEntee, V. L. Shillaker, J. F. ' Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.) Mackinder, W. Shinwell, E.' Gibbins, Joseph McKinlay, A. Simmons, C. J. Gill, T. H. Maclean, Sir Donald (Cornwall, N.) Sinkinson, George Glassey, A. E. MacNeill-Weir, L. Smith, Alfred (Sunderland) Gossling, A. G. McShane, John James Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) Gould, F. Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Mansfield, W. Smith, Tom (Pontefract) Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne) March, S. Smith, W. R. (Norwich) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Marcus, M. Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.) Marley, J. Snowden, Thomas (Accrington)
Sorensen, R. Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Wilkinson, Ellen C. Spero, Dr. G. E. Turner, B. Williams, David (Swansea, East) Stamford, Thomas W. Vaughan, D. J. Williams Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Stephen, Campbell Viant, S. P. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Strachey, E. J. St. Loe Walker, J. Wilson, J. (Oldham) Strauss, G. R. Wallace, H. W. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Sullivan, J. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Wise, E. F. Sutton, J. E. Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff) Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln) Wellock, Wilfred Young, R. S. (Islington, North) Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S. W.) Welsh, James (Paisley) Thurtle, Ernest Welsh, James C. (Coatbridge) TELLERS FOR THE AYES — Tinker, John Joseph West, F. R. Mr. William Whiteley and Mr. Toole, Joseph White, H. G. Wilfrid Paling. Tout, W. J. Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood) NOES. Albery, Irving James Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) Oman, Sir Charles William C. Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Everard, W. Lindsay O'Neill, Sir H. Astor, Viscountess Ferguson, Sir John Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William Atholl, Duchess of Fermoy, Lord Peake, Capt. Osbert Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley) Fison, F. G. Clavering Penny, Sir George Balfour, George (Hampstead) Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings). Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet) Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley) Power, Sir John Cecil Balniel, Lord Glyn, Major R. G. C. Pownall, Sir Assheton Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Grace, John Ramsbotham, H. Bevan, S. J. (Holborn) Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Remer, John R. Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Rentoul, Sir Gervais S. Bird, Ernest Roy Greene, W. P. Crawford Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Boothby, R. J. G. Gunston, Captain D. W. Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Boyce, H. L. Hanbury, C. Salmon, Major I. Bracken, B. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Braithwaite, Major A. N. Hartington, Marquess of Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart Briscoe, Richard George Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D. Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) Haslam, Henry C. Savery, S. S. Bullock, Captain Malcolm Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome Burton, Colonel H. W. Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) Butler, R. A. Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C) Butt, Sir Alfred Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller Smith-Carington, Neville W. Carver, Major W. H. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Smithers, Waldron Castle Stewart, Earl of Hurd, Percy A. Southby, Commander A. R. J. Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.) Kindersley, Major G. M. Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland). Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Knox, Sir Alfred Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F. Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Lamb, Sir J. Q. Thomson, Sir F. Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston) Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Titchfield, Major the Marquess of Christie, J. A. Law, Sir Alfred (Derby, High Peak) Todd, Capt. A. J. Colfox, Major William Philip Leighton, Major B. E. P. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Colville, Major D. J. Little, Dr. E. Graham Turton, Robert Hugh Courtauld, Major J. S. Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. Long, Major Eric Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey) Cranbourne, Viscount Lymington, Viscount Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull). Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Warrender, Sir Victor Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) Makins, Brigadier-General E. Wells, Sydney R. Croom-Johnson, R. P. Marjoribanks, E. C. Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.) Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Mason, Colonel Glyn K. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Dalkeith, Earl of Mitchell-Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford) Mond, Hon. Henry Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount Dawson, Sir Philip Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. Womersley, W. J. Duckworth, G. A. V. Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Dugdale, Capt. T. L. Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Eden, Captain Antnony Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Captain Margesson and Captain Edmondson, Major A. J. Muirhead, A. J. Sir George Bowyer. Elliot, Major Walter E. Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G.(Ptrsf'ld)
CLAUSE 3.—(Amendment of Section 6 of principal Act.)
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
I want to call attention to the words "or by some alternative method." If the Minister has some alternative means by which we can do away with adhesive stamps we shall be very glad to hear it. If the alternative method is suitable for un- employment, the sticking of stamps ought to be done away with for health insurance also.
I am glad to give some information about the Clause. It is necessary because I find I must have statutory authority to make any change from adhesive stamps. There is a machine on the market which can be used by large employers instead of sticking on stamps individually. The stamping machine, however, will incur a larger administrative cost, which we do not want to entail upon the Fund and, therefore, we require in the Clause power to charge employers the necessary additional administrative cost involved in the substitution of the machine for the adhesive stamp method. The employers want this, and they are willing to meet the cost, but I cannot make it under the Statute without this alteration.
We understand that this is only for large employers and not for small?
I should say the cost is too great for small employers.
Question put, and agreed to.
Resolved, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—[ Mr. T. Kennedy. ]
Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Thursday next.
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
It being after Half-past Eleven of the Clock upon Tuesday evening, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned at Ten Minutes after Twelve o'Clock.