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Commons Chamber

Volume 246: debated on Monday 8 December 1930

House of Commons

Monday, December 8, 1930

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

Public Works Facilities Act, 1930

Ordered,

"That all Bills for confirming schemes under section one of the Public Works Facilities Act, 1930, presented during the present Session shall be set down for consideration each day in a separate list after the Private Business, or, if Bills for confirming Provisional Orders or Certificates are set down for consideration, then after those Bills, and arranged in the same order as that prescribed by the Standing Orders for Private Bills."

Ordered,

"That Motions and Orders of the Day relating to Bills confirming schemes under the said section one shall, when opposed, be dealt with in conformity with the procedure which regulates the transaction of Private Business."

Ordered,

"That on the Third Reading of any such Bill the applicants for each scheme included in the Bill shall be charged a fee of £15.—[ The Chairman of Ways and Means. ]

Oral Answers to Questions

India

Road Development Expenditure

asked the Secretary of State for India the total expenditure out of the funds of the Central Government in the form of grants to Provincial Governments made in respect of road development proposals recommended by the Indian Roads Committee?

I have no information but am inquiring.

Situation

asked the Secretary of State for India whether he can make a statement as to the present position in India?

I am circulating a statement giving the Government of India's appreciation of the situation to date.

Following is the statement:

Appreciation of the situation by the Government of India up to 6th December, 1930.

North West Frontier .—An Afridi jirga was interviewed at Jamrud on 17th November, and the following days, and the Maliks were also seen by the Chief Commissioner personally at Peshawar on 24th November. The jirga was fully representative and included Maliks and elders of all sections. Government pensioners were also represented. Beyond the suggestion made at a previous jirga, namely, that of sectional responsibility, the elders had, however, no alternative to put forward to the Government's measures on the Khajuri and Aka Khel Plains. The only addition to their previous statement was that the jirga might consider the construction of some roads across these plains, but only on condition of evacuation as soon as the roads were constructed. No agreement being possible under these circumstances, the jirga broke up. While the jirga was in session at Jamrud and subsequently, rumours were current that gangs were collecting in Tirah to attack the troops in Khajuri Plain. These rumours have not, however, materialized, and, so far the only hostile action which has materialized occurred on 3rd December, when a gang of about 100 Qambar Khels followed up a covering party in the Aka Khel plain, while troops were returning to camp at Miri Khel. Our casualties were one British officer killed and one British other rank wounded.

There have been a few spasmodic attempts at picketing liquor shops in Peshawar, otherwise there is nothing to report.

Internal India .—Fortnightly reports for the last half of November have so far been received from only three Local Governments. In the towns of the United Provinces agitation is more or less moribund. Meetings and processions have lost much of their previous attraction, but boycott continues in sporadic form and it remains to be seen here, as elsewhere, whether the expiry of the Unlawful Intimidation Ordinance will be followed by a revival of activities. The countryside is reported to have been little affected. Touring officers find the people friendly, but very anxious about the economic situation since producers are finding it very difficult to sell their produce, a feature common to most provinces. Considerable indiscipline in jails is reported and Assam mentions similar difficulties. The view of the Bihar and Orissa Government is that while the civil disobedience movement is becoming less intensive and less popular, there were definite indications during November that it was degenerating into violence in this province. There have been several incidents of late in which violence appears to have been premeditated and reports from the Tirhoot Division have been somewhat disquieting as noted below. The past week has witnessed sporadic acts of violence in several other provinces and, while it is unnecessary to assume that these are more than incidental features of the situation, they have been more in evidence than for some time past. The Assam Government reports that the improvement in the political situation has been maintained. Attempts continue to boycott Government educational institutions, but Congress opinion in this matter appears to be divided. In Bombay City there have been further deliberate attempts to defy the authorities with consequent clashes between them and the public, in several of which there have been stone throwing at the police. A violent assault is reported to have been made on a shopkeeper who opened his shop for the sale of foreign cloth and a somewhat similar incident in Benares led to a collision between the police and volunteers. In Karachi, there has been organised defiance of the authorities by the Congress and the Youth Association which appears to have taken the form of demonstrations before the courts of local magistrates and judges. The police have had forcibly to disperse several gatherings. There have been several terrorist outrages during the week at Chandpur in Bengal and an Inspector of Police was killed, the alleged murderers being subsequently arrested. In Cawnpore, a party of police who were about to carry out a search for suspects were fired on by a youth and several of the party injured; the assailant was killed. There is now good reason to believe that the wrecking of a mail train, which occurred in Burma about a month ago, was the work of the Bengal revolutionary party and a number of arrests have been made in this connection.

The proceedings of the round-table Conference continue to be closely followed by all who are interested in the political future of the country. The provisional classification of heads by Lord Sankey and possible methods of effecting federation are being critically examined in the Press and particular interest is taken in the status of India and in the form of central government. Hope alternates with anxiety as to the outcome of the Conference, but the feeling is growing that it represents a very important constructive effort to find a solution and that it merits the good wishes of all who have at heart the interests of India.

Tariff Board (Inquiries)

asked the Secretary of State for India the number of inquiries that have been held by the tariff board in India since the inception of the board; and if he will give information showing in how many cases the recommendations of the tariff board have been adopted by the Government of India and action has subsequently been taken thereon?

The board has conducted about 20 inquiries. The results are recorded in the annual Moral and Material Progress Reports.

D.A.V. College, Lahore

asked the Secretary of State for India whether he has any information concerning the lathi charge made upon students while at work in a class-room in the D.A.V. college at Lahore?

I have no official information regarding the alleged lathi charge on students in a class-room, but I will inquire.

Chorepalia

asked the Secretary of State for India whether he will inquire into the happenings at the village of Chorepalia on 7th September, 1930, when lathi charges were made?

I have no information regarding the incident, but if my hon. Friend will communicate to me the facts in his possession, I will consider whether an inquiry can be made.

North-West Frontier

asked the Secretary of State for India why, as the British troops covering road-making west of Peshawar are considered as being on active service for discipline and punishment, they have not been put on an active-service basis as regards rations, clothing, and separation allowances?

I am making inquiries and I shall communicate the result to the hon. and gallant Member.

asked the Secretary of State for India whether he will make a statement on the engagement which took place on 3rd December at Aka Khel plain during which a British officer, Captain Will, was killed?

asked the Secretary of State for India if he can make any statement as to the recent fighting with the Afridis near Peshawar; and whether there is any indication of pacific tendencies among the tribesmen?

As will be seen from the statement circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT, the only hostile action that has materialised up to the present was on the 3rd December, when a gang of tribesmen followed up a covering party while troops were returning to camp. I have at present no further details, except the report, which I received with great regret, that Captain Will was killed in action at Alam Killi by a stray bullet. There are indications that some elements among the tribesmen are disposed to a pacific settlement.

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will refer to the communiqué issued to-day by the Government of India.

Lloyd Quay, Karachi (Opening Ceremony)

asked the Secretary of State for India whether he is aware that on 15th November, when the Governor of Bombay was opening the Lloyd Quay at Karachi, a number of British and Indian ladies and gentlemen were spat upon, stoned, and had refuse from the road thrown at them by a Congress mob; that the Karachi British journalists reported the facts to the Associated Press, the Statesman, and Reuter, but that the cables were censored by the local authorities; and can he state the reason for this censorship of facts under the Indian Telegraph Act, 1885?

asked the Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been called to the events which took place at the opening of the Lloyd Quay at Karachi by His Excellency the Governor of Bombay; whether he is satisfied that the arrangements made for the preservation of law and order were adequate; and what action, if any, he proposes to take in the matter?

I have received no official report of this matter, but if it is desired will inquire. I am informed that a newspaper telegram was in fact withheld on the ground that it contained serious mis-statements of fact. I am inquiring further as to this.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the full facts were reported in the Indian Press, and that only statements very much minimising the occurrence were allowed to get through to this country?

Are we to understand from the right hon. Gentleman's reply that there is a regular censorship of telegrams coming from India, or was this particular telegram censored for special reasons?

Will the right hon. Gentleman consider laying on the Table of the House, or in the Library, a statement on the subject, in view of the difficulties which hon. Members have in getting information?

The Noble Lord may remember that this matter was the subject of question and answer some short time ago, and perhaps, in the first place, he will refer to that interrogatory.

Newspaper Editor's Arrest, Bombay

asked the Secretary of State for India under what law the editor and publisher of the Bombay Chronicle were arrested and imprisoned; and the date upon which this law first became applicable to Bombay?

The Act in question was the Criminal Law Amendment Act, 1908. It was extended to the Bombay Presidency in 1910.

Is it not a fact that this Act had lapsed since and was only notified again on 10th October of this year; and, if that be the case, can it be described as the ordinary law?

Conference (Press Statements)

asked the Secretary of State for India whether he will consider the advisability of prohibiting the publication in newspapers in India of statements calculated to create prejudice against the Round-Table Conference, such as allegations of insulting treatment accorded to the Indian delegates to the Bound-Table Conference at the hands of British Ministers and permanent officials?

I agree with the hon. and gallant Gentleman in deploring the publication of matter likely to promote ill will but this end as a general rule would I think not be served by the means he proposes.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman think it time that steps were taken in regard to the censorship of these statements?

Russia

Dumping

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has now received a report from His Majesty's Ambassador concerning certain decrees of the Soviet Government giving detailed instructions for the manufacture and dumping of a large number of commodities?

His Majesty's Ambassador at Moscow has, on my instructions, made inquiries into this matter. He reports that, while instructions must presumably be given by the Soviet authorities in connection with the manufacture of articles intended for export, no decrees of the nature suggested have, according to the Soviet officials concerned, been drafted.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that certain responsible newspapers have published extracts from the decrees of the Labour Ministry of the Soviet Government; and will he ask the Ambassador to made further inquiries?

I can find no evidence in the direction indicated by the right hon. Gentleman.

Labour Conditions

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will make available to Members of the House copies of the decrees of the Soviet Russia Government which he has received from the British Ambassador in connection with the abolition of unemployment benefit and the conscription of labour recently issued by the Russian Commissariat of Labour?

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will endeavour to obtain copies of the regulations governing the use of the prisoners in the Soviet Russian concentration camps working in the timber forests, the regulations as to the work done by the inmates of the Soviet Russian correction houses for young persons; and whether he will include these in the forthcoming White Paper on Soviet Russian labour conditions?

The attention of His Majesty's Ambassador at Moscow will be called to the suggestions made by the right hon. Gentleman and the hon. and gallant Member in connection with the preparation of the White Paper.

Public Prosecutor's Comments (British Protest)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what reply he has had from the British Ambassador at Moscow in regard to the message he was instructed to give to the Soviet Government protesting against the reflections made on His Majesty's Government at the trial at Moscow?

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he or the British Ambassador has now received any reply from the Soviet Government concerning the communication made to them on behalf of His Majesty's Government in relation to certain passages reflecting adversely and without reason upon His Majesty's Government in the documents issued by the Soviet Government in the trial of certain industrialists now proceeding at Moscow; and, if not, whether he will cause telegraphic instructions to be sent to the British Ambassador to press for an immediate reply?

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what reply has been received by the British Ambassador to Moscow to the remonstrances addressed by him to the Soviet Government on the instructions of the Government with respect to the statements made by the Soviet public prosecutor containing allegations against Great Britain?

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has received any acknowledgment or reply from the Soviet Government to his protest with regard to the reflections upon the late and present Governments in the trial of professors at Moscow; and will he publish the reply when received?

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any further reply has been received to his protest to the Soviet Government respecting the reflections made upon the preceding and the present British Governments in connection with the trial at Moscow for conspiracy?

The following is a translation of the reply returned by the Soviet Commissar for Foreign Affairs to His Majesty's Ambassador:

"References to the possibility of the participation of British, circles in interventionist plans were made by the accused in written depositions at the time of the preliminary examination, and confirmed by them later in court. Neither the examining authorities nor the court can deprive the accused of the right to give evidence or to make such confessions as they consider necessary. The Public Prosecutor naturally based his indictment upon the confessions of the accused, which he could not ignore. However, the court and the Public Prosecutor at the time of the trial paid almost no attention to the references to England. Nor did the Public Prosecutor dwell upon these accusations in his final speech for the prosecution. Neither did the Government anywhere express its views upon these references to England."

Did not the public prosecutor put forward those witnesses, as witnesses of truth; did he not con- stantly identify himself with their statements throughout the trial; were not the accused found guilty on an indictment charging them with conspiracy with this country; and is the right hon. Gentleman going to allow matters to remain as they are?

Does the right hon. Gentleman intend to make any further communication to the Soviet Government on the subject; and does he think it compatible with the interest and dignity of this country that the matter should rest there?

I have only received the answer. I have given it in full just as I have received it, and I must consider the matter.

Does the right hon. Gentleman accept the explanation which he has just read to the House?

Debts, Claims and Counter Claims

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the claims of Russian creditors now lodged in the claims department of the Foreign Office have been classified and kept up to date, and has the Anglo-Russian Committee now discussing these claims examined any of them?

As the hon. and gallant Member was informed on 2nd April last, all these claims are registered with the Russian Claims Department of the Board of Trade. This register has remained open for any revision of claims that may be required. As regards the second part, I have at present nothing to add to my reply to the hon. Member for Kensington South (Sir W. Davison) on the 3rd of December.

Is it the case that the progress of this committee is being held up because those claims have not been brought up to date, and that other countries with similar claims have spent considerable time and money in bringing their claims up to date?

I am not aware that the committee have been held up on the ground stated.

Propaganda

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any reply has been received to his representations to the Soviet Government respecting the anti-British propaganda contained in the broadcast from Moscow on Tuesday, 2nd December?

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has yet received a reply from the Soviet Government with regard to his protest concerning the broadcasting of propaganda from Moscow?

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has received any reply from the Soviet Government to his protests about the wireless propaganda from Moscow; and whether the receipt of any further messages from Moscow has been reported to him?

In reply to the representations made by His Majesty's Ambassador, the Soviet Commissar for Foreign Affairs has made a verbal statement, of which the following is a translation. With the leave of the House, I will read this statement in full, although it is rather long.

"I have ascertained that the broadcast to which the Ambassador referred was transmitted not from a station under the control of the Government but from a private station which is at the full disposal of the All Union Central Council of Trade Unions. No breach of the undertakings of the Soviet Government can be discerned in the fact that, without having established any form of censorship of messages of the broadcasting station, they place the station at the disposal of the trade unions.

I have acquainted myself with the contents of the message to which the Ambassador refers and have convinced myself that it only sets forth, though clearly from the Soviet point of view, the facts of the trial of the industrial party, in which it would hardly be possible to discern any anti-British propaganda whatever.

Similarly in the letter of Gorky broadcast from the station, even if that letter contains any propaganda, such propaganda is merely anti-war propaganda against which the British Government can hardly have anything to say. This being so, I have reached the conclusion that this radio message which, after all, was transmitted not by Government nor by its organs or agents but from the private broadcasting station of the trade unions, neither formally nor in substance constitutes a breach of any obliga- tions whatever of the Soviet Government and therefore does not give all grounds for a protest.

Nevertheless, I can say that, at the time when the All Union Central Council of Trade Unions was given the right to use the broadcasting station, no broadcast messages of this nature were contemplated, and that, taking into consideration Mr. Henderson's declaration, the undesirability of such broadcast messages in future will be impressed upon the All Union Central Council of Trade Unions."

Does the right hon. Gentleman accept the statement that the Broadcast station is not under the control of Soviet Russia? Is he going to swallow that fantastic statement?

I must do so until the right hon. Gentleman provides me with evidence to the contrary.

Is this the only example of private enterprise still allowed in Russia?

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether His Majesty's Government intend to take any steps to prevent similar anti-British propaganda being circulated?

I am not sure that that is going to be necessary, in view of the latter part of the answer which I have just given.

Does the right hon. Gentleman regard the answer as a humorous one or a serious one?

I like to treat other Governments with whom we are in friendly relations seriously.

I should like to know whether this broadcast can be received on an ordinary crystal set, or have you to have a very powerful valve set in order to receive it?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it can be received on a crystal set and that there is plenty of evidence for it?

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will take steps to blanket the broad- cast of Soviet propaganda by the Soviet Government of Russia by means of the wireless transmitters belonging to the Admiralty or to some other Government Department?

As I have already stated, I consider the broadcasting of messages such as that sent out from Moscow on the 2nd of December as a breach of the pledge entered into by the Soviet Government last year. But I do not consider that action in the sense proposed is required at present.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in refusing to take action of this kind he is aiding and abetting the King's enemies?

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs when his attention was first called to the fact that Soviet propaganda was being broadcast from Moscow?

The matter was first brought to the attention of my Department in May last by a correspondent in Cardiff, and for many months past my hon. Friend the Postmaster-General has, as he informed the House on the 4th of December last, caused messages from Moscow to be supervised. I received no further intimation of any objectionable message until the 1st of December last.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the letter from Cardiff contained definite information that revolutionary incitements were being made, and that the Under-Secretary replied that he would make inquiries, and will he state why no steps have been taken in that long interval to put the matter right?

The hon. Member cannot have followed my reply. We did take steps by putting the matter into the hands of the Postmaster-General.

In view of the fact that another broadcast is announced for the 9th December, is the right hon. Gentleman taking any steps to get a closer liaison with the Post Office than on the last occasion?

No, Sir. It does not take so many hours for us to get into touch with the Post Office, but, as I informed the House, it had been taken from three distinct stations, and the Post Office, before it sent the information to my Department, had to be satisfied as to the consistency of all the statements.

Has the right hon. Gentleman listened in to his master's voice?

Is my right hon. Friend aware of the splendid advertisement these broadcasts are receiving through the action of hon. Gentlemen opposite?

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the machinery set up, to inquire into Soviet propaganda has been acting during the last month; and whether any report has been made as a result of its activities to the Government?

Is there no machinery set up now to deal with Soviet propaganda, or is that another Government pledge which has been broken?

Oh, no. As I have already informed the House, the machinery is there when we feel that it is necessary to put it into force.

Trading Companies (Directors)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many of the 69 directors of the trading companies under Soviet control that are registered in this country, and are included in the list which has been circulated to the House, are Russian subjects; and how many of them who are resident in this country enjoy diplomatic privileges?

I have been asked to reply. The list referred to contains the names of 54 individuals, of whom 44 claim to be Soviet citizens. I am informed that none of them is entitled to diplomatic privilege.

Does the hon. Gentleman know whether any of the people in the list have at any time been deported or excluded from this country in con- sequence of any offence that they have committed?

Accusation (British Denial)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs in how many public trials in the Union of Socialist Soviet Republics during the past two years the British Government or its officials have been accused of complicity in plots to overthrow or embarrass the Soviet Government; in how many such cases an official protest has been made on behalf of the British Government; and what replies have been received?

Apart from the case referred to in various questions to-day, I am only aware of one public trial in which any such accusation has been made, namely, the trial of certain employés of the Lena Goldfields Company last May. On that occasion, I instructed His Majesty's Ambassador at Moscow to inform the Soviet Government that there was no foundation for the charges made. The hon. and gallant Member will no doubt realise that my Department is not in a position to obtain particulars of all trials which may have taken place in the Soviet Union in the course of the past two years, during a considerable part of which time His Majesty's Government had no relations with, nor diplomatic representation in, the territories of the Soviet Union.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman getting rather tired of having to make these various protests?

Such a good example was set me by the Government who were in office before.

Prison Labour

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to the paragraph in the published criminal code of the Soviet Russian prisons that makes it obligatory for the prisoners to work on the production of merchandise; and whether he will call for a report from the British Ambassador as to the destination of this merchandise?

Article 34 of the Criminal Code provides that imprisonment is necessarily accompanied by labour which should, as far as possible, be made to conform with the special qualifications of the prisoner. I do not think that any useful purpose would be served by asking His Majesty's Ambassador for a report on the lines suggested by the hon. and gallant Member.

Seeing that these prisoners number something like 500,000, is it not important to find out where this merchandise goes to?

British Embassy, Moscow

asked the First Commissioner of Works to whom the rent for the new British Embassy in Moscow is paid?

The rent is paid to the Central Bureau for Assistance to Foreigners.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that while the Government are paying a very high rent to this bureau, the real owners of the property are in very poor circumstances, and can he not see that they will get some of the money which the Government pay?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this house has been taken away without compensation from the original owners?

Great Britain and Argentina (Workmen's Compensation)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the convention between this country and the Argentine Republic with regard to compensation for accidents to workmen has yet been ratified by either party?

The instrument of ratification has received His Majesty's signature, and is being sent to His Majesty's Ambassador at Buenos Aires for exchange against the corresponding Argentine ratification at the earliest possible moment.

Afghanistan

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is in a position to make any statement with regard to the present position of Afghanistan; whether British interests are at present represented there: and will he give particulars?

The situation in Afghanistan appears, according to my information, to be normal. Mr. Maconachie, His Majesty's Minister to Afghanistan, has been continuously at his post since the 11th of May last.

China

Canton-Hankow Railway

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can now make a statement about the claim against the Chinese Government by Mr. Valpy, the engineer of the Canton-Hankow railway; and whether His Majesty's Government is arranging that there shall be a British engineer appointed to safeguard the interests of British subjects in this railway?

Representations have been made to the Chinese Government by His Majesty's Minister. The Chinese Minister of Railways has stated that the Loan Agreement has not been violated, that Mr. Valpy's engagement has been terminated for service reasons and on grounds of economy, and that arrangements are being made to pay him the arrears of salary due. The Minister of Railways added that the position of engineer-in-chief would be filled as soon as possible, and that a lower-salaried British engineer already in Chinese Government service might be transferred to Mr. Valpy's post.

Will the right hon. Gentleman inquire as to whether Mr. Valpy is satisfied with the settlement?

British Subjects (Advice)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether His Majesty's Consular officers in China are instructed to give advice to missionaries and others with regard to travel or residence in the interior of China?

His Majesty's Consular officers in China have long had standing instructions to offer such advice to all British subjects in their respective districts as the situation demanded. Recently, His Majesty's Minister sent instructions to all Consular officers enjoining particular watchfulness at this time over the safety of British subjects in areas where dangerous conditions are likely to arise, and instructing them not to hesitate to advise in good time the withdrawal of missionaries and other British subjects from such areas.

Questions

Chemical Warfare

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will lay upon the Table of the House the British Memorandum on chemical warfare which was discussed the other day at Geneva by the Preparatory Commission for the Disarmament Conference?

Yes, Sir. I will arrange for the Memorandum to be laid on the Table of this House.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the cost to the taxpayer of experiments for defence against chemical warfare, he will consider whether arrangements can be concluded with other countries which, like ourselves, have renounced the use of gas as an offensive weapon for the pooling of information and of expenditure upon anti-gas research?

I fear that the adoption of this proposal would not be practicable at present.

Dead Sea Salts (Concessions)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what is the present position of the conversations with the French Government with regard to the Dead Sea concessions which were given to Mr. Moses Novamesky; and whether the question has now been brought before The Hague Tribunal?

As I informed my hon. Friend the Member for North Salford (Mr. Tillett) on the 16th of July, His Majesty's Government have informed the French Government that they are willing, subject to certain conditions, to refer this question to arbitration. Correspondence with the French Government has been proceeding, but I am unable at this stage to give further details.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say when this question is likely to be settled, or how much longer is it going to continue?

Ex-Khedive of Egypt (Visa)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the reasons for the refusal to grant a visa to Abbas Pasha, ex-Khedive of Egypt, to land in England?

I have been asked to reply. I regret that it would not be in the public interest to state the reasons for the refusal of a visa in this case.

Red Sea (Slave Trade)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether His Majesty's Government are taking any steps against the traffic in slavery existing between Ethiopia and Arabia?

For years past two of His Majesty's sloops have been stationed in the Red Sea with a view to preventing the traffic in slaves from Africa to Arabia. A large number of dhows are searched every year.

Has the co-operation of other Governments been asked for in this matter, or are other Powers actually taking similar steps?

Imperial Conference

asked the Prime Minister whether he intends to make any further statement with regard to the Imperial Conference?

My right hon. Friend had not contemplated making any further statement as to the Imperial Conference. A full Summary of Proceedings of the Conference has already been laid before the House, and it is hoped that the Appendices to the Summary of Proceedings will be presented to Parliament very shortly.

Has the right hon. Gentleman's attention been called to the statement by the Prime Minister of Canada about the Canadian offer being contemptuously rejected—[ Interruption ].

Imperial Relations

asked the Prime Minister if his attention has been drawn to the Motion on the Order Paper in the name of the hon. and gallant Member for the Isle of Wight (Captain P. Macdonald) and others; and if he will give a day to discuss it.—

["That, in view of the recent pronouncement of the Prime Minister of the Dominion of Canada, that in his opinion in the existing conditions the proposed conference at Ottawa next year will be of no consequence, this House is of opinion that an immediate pronouncement of the policy of the Government is essential if inter-Imperial Relations are not to be greatly prejudiced."]

I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to what the Prime Minister said in reply to a question by the hon. Member for South Kensington (Sir W. Davison) arising out of the statement which he made on Business on Thursday last.

Does the right hon. Gentleman propose to take any steps to wipe out the gross insult which he perpetrated last week?

Naval and Military Pensions and Grants

Dependants' Pensions

asked the Minister of Pensions the estimated cost falling on the State if, in the case of an ex-service man marrying after the War and dying from his disability attributable to War service, his dependants were eligible for his pension and such pensions were made retrospective?

In the unavoidable absence of my right hon. Friend I have been asked to reply. The capital liability of the Ministry if wives, widows and children of post-discharge or post-injury, etc., marriages were to be placed on the same footing as those which are within the scope of the Royal Warrants is estimated at £105,000,000. If these pensions were granted with retrospective effect from date of entitlement, the Ministry's liability would be increased by at least another £45,000,000.

Appeals

asked the Attorney-General whether claimants for pensions are accompanied at an appeal tribunal by their own medical advisers, or whether such medical advisers are consulted before a decision is arrived at?

I have been asked to reply. Appellants may be and frequently are accompanied by their medical advisers at the hearing of their appeals. In almost every case the appellant brings a certificate from his medical adviser which is carefully considered before the Tribunal gives its decision. In cases where the appellant fails to bring a certificate or the certificate is not sufficiently comprehensive, it is the usual practice of the Tribunals to adjourn the hearing until the information required is obtained from the medical adviser either by the appellant or with the consent of the appellant by the Tribunal.

Is it the fact that a claimant has the right to demand that his medical adviser shall be present? The right hon. and learned Gentleman said, "may be and frequently are accompanied," and the point I wish to elicit is whether he has a right to be accompanied by his medical adviser?

I should not like to say off-hand. It may be that there is no right in the strict legal sense of the term, but I believe that the invariable practice is to allow the appellant to be accompanied by his medical adviser if he so desires.

Will the Government, through the Ministry of Pensions, make it clear that claimants may ask that their medical advisers should be heard before the decision is given?

That seems to be a very reasonable suggestion, and I will convey it to my hon. and learned Friend.

Trade and Commerce

Exhibitions

asked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department when he expects to receive the report from the Chelmsford Committee in connection with the future policy regarding trade exhibitions?

The report was published Command Paper on 3rd instant, and, as the right hon. Member has no doubt noticed, has received much prominence in the Press.

Russia

asked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether he has receivd any reports from any trade representatives in Russia as to the trade activities of the Soviet Government; and what goods they are likely to place on the British market in the immediate future?

In regard to the first part of the question, such reports as I have received are based on information appearing in the official Soviet publications. In regard to the second part of the question, I regret I have no definite information.

What is the object of having trade representatives in Russia if we cannot get this information, which is urgently needed for our trade?

We are naturally collecting information which appears in the documents published by the Government; beyond that, we have no information.

Surely the hon. Gentleman's office could obtain documentary evidence without a trade representative?

asked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department what arrangements the British Government have in Russia to ascertain the conditions under which goods placed upon the British market are prepared or manufactured in that country?

His Majesty's representative in the Union of Socialist Soviet Republics, as in any other foreign country, transmits for publication such information on the subjects mentioned by the hon. Member as is publicly available.

Has our representative facilities for getting information in the same way as our representatives in other countries have?

asked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department if he will take steps to ascertain whether British manufacturers carrying on business in this country are permitted in any way to bring their products to the notice of the Russian people without the intervention of the Soviet Government?

No, Sir. Under the Soviet monopoly of foreign trade, manufacturers are only able to bring their products to the notice of the Russian people by one of the methods indicated in my replies to the hon. Member on the 17th and 24th November, and to the hon. and gallant Member for the Isle of Wight (Captain P. Macdonald) on the 24th November.

Cannot the hon. Gentleman indicate whether there is any liberty for British manufacturers to have their goods sold abroad without the intervention of the Soviet Government?

The only opportunity of selling goods in Russia is through one of the recognised organisations that are allowed by the Russian Government to import goods.

Is the hon. Gentleman satisfied that this rule is applied to the goods of other countries as it is to goods of British manufacture?

Overseas Trade Department (Booklet)

asked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department what distribution has been arranged for the booklet dealing with the services of his Department; and whether trade and industry at large are submitting orders for the publication?

The booklet has been widely distributed among firms interested in export trade. The co-operation of commercial organisations, such as chambers of commerce, trade associations and banks, as well as that of the Press, has been enlisted. The number of copies for which requests have been received to date is 18,500.

Questions

Consular Service

asked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department how many Vice-Consuls are in the employment of the British Government; and what percentage of these are of British nationality?

There are 379 salaried consular officers, all of whom are of British nationality, and there are 522 unsalaried consular officers, of whom 371 are British subjects.

Is the hon. Gentleman taking steps, as far as he can, to eliminate foreigners from our foreign representatives abroad and to replace them by British subjects to act as Consuls and Vice-Consuls?

We always make certain that there is no suitable British representative available before we appoint a person of another nationality.

If we could get British subjects for that work, would it not be very much better, because they would take more interest in bringing work to this country?

That point has been recognised by both the present Government and past Governments, and the policy is the same in all cases.

Agriculture

Cheese

asked the Minister of Agriculture if his attention has been called to the growing import of cheese into this country from foreign sources; and if any special measures are contemplated by his Department for the encouragement of increased cheese production in this country?

I am aware of a relatively small increase in the volume of imports of cheese into the United Kingdom, more than four-fifths of which are received from Empire countries. My Department has recently published a report, Economic Series No. 22, on the Marketing of Cheese in England and Wales, and it is now consulting the various interests concerned with a view to the introduction of a National Mark Scheme for cheese during 1931, which I am hopeful will stimulate the production of larger supplies of first quality cheese in this country.

Have the Government taken steps to secure that as far as possible any cheese imported into this country shall be Dominion or Colonial cheese, in preference to foreign cheese?

Government Proposals

asked the Minister of Agriculture when he proposes to announce his plans for helping the cereal farmer?

I am unable at present to add anything to the reply which I gave on 17th November to questions on this subject by the hon. and gallant Member for Louth (Lieut.-Colonel Heneage) and the Noble Lord the Member for Aldershot (Viscount Wolmer).

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise the present emergency in the corn-growing district? Owing to the unsatisfactory nature of his reply, I beg to give notice that I shall take an early opportunity of raising this matter in the House.

Questions

Horse-Breeding Indusutry

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether, in view of the tendency to restrict the use of horse traffic in certain streets in various towns throughout the country, he will investigate the serious reaction that such Orders must necessarily have upon the horse-breeding industry of this country?

My hon. Friend, the Minister of Transport, has no knowledge of the existence of a tendency to restrict by Orders the use of horse-drawn traffic in streets and, in these circumstances, the second part of the question does not arise. If, however, the hon. and gallant Member can give any specific instances of such Orders my hon. Friend will be glad to receive particulars.

Broadcasting (Pictures)

asked the Postmaster-General whether he is able to make a statement as to the present position concerning facilities for the use of a broadcasting station for the transmission of television and/or the broadcasting of wireless pictures?

Under an arrangement made between the British Broadcasting Corporation and the Baird Television Company, television and speech are broadcast simultaneously on two different wave-lengths during a period of half-an-hour each weekday from the Brookman's Park station. Still pictures were broadcast experimentally for many months, but the arrangement has now been discontinued.

Grand Opera (Government Grant)

asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that the Covent Garden Opera Syndicate, 1930, is a commercial company trading for profits; and whether any distribution by way of dividend or bonus will be limited by the agreement entered into?

The articles of association of the Covent Garden Opera Syndicate (1930) Limited provide that any profits of the company shall be applied for its general purposes and shall not be distributed to the shareholders.

Has the hon. Gentleman any information to the effect that the Covent Garden Syndicate lost £30,000 in a few weeks last year?

asked the Postmaster-General whether he can say if any of the directors of the British Broadcasting Corporation will be directors of the new organisation to which the opera subsidy is to be paid; and, if so, which and at what salary?

The British Broadcasting Corporation, through its holding of shares in the opera company, will be in a position to appoint directors, but I understand it is not their intention at present to make such appointments. The articles of association of the new company provide that no remuneration shall be paid to the directors other than managing directors.

Will the hon. Gentleman see to it that there shall be nothing of what the Chancellor of the Exchequer so courteously described as "guinea pig directors" about this company?

Are not the directors of the British Broadcasting Corporation at present directors of the other company?

In reply to the hon. Member for South Kensington (Sir W. Davison): If this is so, they have not been appointed by the British Broadcasting Corporation, but they are already directors in their individual capacity.

asked the Postmaster-General what representation, if any, the Government will have on the board of directors of the grand opera syndicate, or what other provision, if any, will be made to ensure the proper and economic expenditure of the proposed grant to that syndicate?

The Government will not be represented on the board of the new company. Adequate supervision of the administration of the Government grant will be secured through the British Broadcasting Corporation, who will hold a controlling interest in the shares of the company.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say who are the directors or governors of the British Broadcasting Corporation?

Can the right hon. Gentleman say when the various agreements between the Post Office and the company and the British Broadcasting Corporation are likely to be completed?

I could not say that for the moment—there are too many matters of detail—but it will certainly not be before Christmas.

In view of the announcement this afternoon that the British Broadcasting Corporation does not propose to appoint directors to the Opera Company, will the Postmaster-General be good enough to tell us exactly how it is anticipated that the British Broadcasting Corporation will be able to safeguard the State's investment in this company?

The new company will submit quarterly balance-sheets to the British Broadcasting Corporation.

Will steps be taken to secure representation for women on the board?

asked the Postmaster-General whether any arrangements will be made for visits by the subsidised National Opera Company to provincial towns?

asked the Postmaster-General whether, in view of the proposal to subsidise grand opera at the taxpayer's expense, the terms of the subsidy will be such as to ensure that at least a proportion of the seats at Covent Garden are available to the public at a reasonable price?

Yes, Sir. At the winter and autumn seasons at Covent Garden, popular prices will be charged.

Post Office

Telephone Service

asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that the charge for telephone calls between Barnet and London is 2d. per call and between South Mimms, which is only three miles further out, and London is 5d. per call; and whether, in view of the disparity in the charges, he will reduce the charges for telephone calls between South Mimms and London to 2d. per call?

My hon. Friend's question refers to call office charges and not to calls for private subscribers which of course are considerably less. Barnet exchange is less than five miles from the five-mile circle round Oxford Circus and accordingly the charge for call office calls from Barnet to Central London is 2d. South Mimms exchange is more than 7¼ miles from this circle and the corresponding charge is 5d. The charges from South Mimms are1 those applicable to all exchanges which are the same distance from London and I regret that exceptions cannot be made in favour of a particular locality.

asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that Berwick-on-Tweed is suffering from an antiquated telephone system; that the original machines, many over 30 years old, have never been replaced, and that recently the addition of small batteries to the old instruments has made the service even worse; and will he take steps to remedy this state of affairs?

The telephone exchange at Berwick-on-Tweed was brought into service in 1912. It is still giving satisfactory service, and the record of faults compares favourably with that of other exchanges. I may perhaps add that the record of faults both at Berwick-on-Tweed and elsewhere is less than 2 per cent.

Will the hon. Gentleman be prepared to receive a deputation of the citizens of Berwick-on-Tweed, as they are very much concerned owing to the trouble to business in the town arising from the inefficiency of the service?

Perhaps the hon. and gallant Gentleman will write to me on that subject.

Staff Reductions, Londondeeey

asked the Postmaster-General whether he is now in a position to reconsider the recent reductions of staff in Londonderry General Post Office?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that any falling off to which he alludes in the letter which he was good enough to send me is due to people being driven to sub-Post Offices owing to the inefficient service at the General Post Office?

Questions

House of Commons Tea Room (Exhibits)

asked the First Commissioner of Works if he will inform the House for what purpose and in what circumstances advertisements issued by the Russian Soviet Government showing the progress of their five-years plan and the methods they adopt to further it have been placed in the Tea Room of the House; and whether similar facilities will be given for the display of posters showing the progress and methods of industries within the British Empire?

As regards the first part of the question, I must refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave to the hon. and gallant Member for King's Norton (Major Thomas) on the 4th instant. As regards the latter part of the question, if the hon. Member cares to organise an exhibit of the type he has in mind, I shall be glad to give such facilities as I am able.

Will the right hon. Gentleman explain why the House of Commons should be used to advertise the Soviet Government's five-years plan?

The hon. Baronet was not present, perhaps, on 3rd November when the hon. Member for North Lambeth (Mr. Strauss) put a question to me asking whether I would give facilities to enable him to show some posters which he had brought over from Russia, and I said that I would take the matter into consideration, did so, and—there they are.

What other foreign Government's goods are advertised in our tea-room?

I think the hon. and gallant Member has made a mistake. No foreign people's goods are advertised there. "We are only showing posters of a certain character which an hon. Member imagined, apparently vainly, that his colleagues might be interested in.

The right hon. Gentleman has not given any reply to my question asking why he should accede to the request, and why the House of Commons should be used to advertise another nation's goods.

I acceded to the request, as I intimated to the House that I should do, if arrangements could be made. I agreed to their exhibition as I should agree to the exhibition of any thing of interest which any Member brought over from abroad.

As they appear to be so unpopular, may we take them down?

If the hon. and gallant Member had had patience enough to wait until he went to get his tea or would look at the answer to the question on Thursday, he would know that they have been taken down.

On a point of Order. Is it right, you, Sir, being the guardian of the Privileges of this House, for any hon. Member to exhibit in the tea room a notice of such a character without first receiving your permission so to do?

On that, Mr. Speaker, may I say that the House is perfectly well aware that a request was made to me by an hon. Member opposite to allow the exhibitions of some cartoons and pictures relative to amenities in the country districts. I was asked to give permission for their exhibition, and I gave permission. Not only did I give permission, but I gave facilities for the exhibition to take place.

May I have a reply to my point of Order as to whether it is not within your jurisdiction, and your jurisdiction only, that matters of that nature should be put in the tea room?

Has it not been the invariable practice for the First Commissioner to consult Mr. Speaker on such matters?

That is six supplementaries already, Mr. Speaker. I am watching because I am coming in.

In reply to the point of Order. As there seems to be some dissatisfaction with the arrangement made in the tea roam, perhaps it will be better to let me bear the responsibility.

Mr. Speaker, as this is a question which affects myself and my Department, I think the House, before coming to any decision on the matter, ought to know the facts. They are that I have never been asked by anyone to consult you, Mr. Speaker, when I have been asked to make arrangements, as I was asked some months ago, for the exihibition of pictures and cartoons in the House. I have acted on many other occasions in the same manner as I acted on the last occasion.

May I ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether, considering the excessive curiosity displayed by hon. Members above the Gangway with regard to Russia, the First Commissioner of Works was not fully justified in putting up these posters in the tea room which he thought might be interesting to hon. Members which he thought rightly contained some truth in regard to what is taking place in there?

Hon. Members must recollect that this is the first I have heard of the matter.

On this side of the House we are very anxious to have the position made clear. I understand from your last Ruling, Mr. Speaker, that the right hon. Gentleman did not consult you in any way before these posters were put up.

I do not wish to be misunderstood. It is quite true that the right hon. Gentleman did not consult me about the putting up of these posters in the tea room. As regards the future, I think it would be better if I were consulted when there are matters of controversy, and then I should bear the responsibility.

Official Secrets Act (Ex-Minister's Articles)

asked the Attorney-General whether his attention has been called to the publication in a weekly newspaper of a series of articles by a former Home Secretary dealing with the administration of the Home Office; whether he has considered the articles in relation to the Official Secrets Act; arid whether he proposes to take any action in the matter?

I have been asked to reply. I presume the hon. Member refers to the articles by the right hon. Viscount Brentford appearing in "Tit Bits." My hon. Friend has read the articles in question and is satisfied that no breach of the Official Secrets Acts has been committed.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not afraid of the threat to the constitution if the articles in "Tit Bits" get into the hands of the Russians?

The only question we have to consider in this connection is whether there has been a breach of the Official Secrets Act. My hon. and learned Friend has come to the conclusion that no such breach has occurred. May I assure the hon. Gentleman that we shall keep a vigilant eye on this matter.

Coal Industry

Brazilian Railways (German Coal)

asked the Secretary for Mines the quantity of German coal which has been purchased for Brazilian railways during the 10 months ended 31st October; and to what extent the price has been reduced below that of South Wales coal which previously held this market?

I have seen references in the Press to the purchase of German coal by Brazilian railways, but I have no official information on the subject.

Surely the hon. Gentleman ought to make inquiries? If this coal is being deliberately dumped in South America by our competitors, it is his business to know what is being done.

Situation, Scotland

asked the Secretary for Mines whether he can make any statement regarding the position in the Scottish mining industry?

asked the Secretary for Mines what arrangements have been completed for securing a settlement of the coal stoppage in Scotland; and what terms have been agreed on for the resumption of work?

An agreement was reached on Saturday between the owners' and workmen's representatives settling terms of work until the end of February, and work has been generally resumed.

Since the conditions on which the pits were opened last week in Scotland were a contravention of the Mines Act, will the miners find any difficulty in claiming unemployment benefit for the week's work that they lost?

I think that the terms of my question are wide enough to cover that, if Mr. Speaker will allow it. It is very important.

Is the Secretary for Mines in a position to tell the House why it was that I got a ruling from the Lord Advocate, who is now in his place, at half-past two on Friday afternoon, in writing, as follows:

"That women and children are entitled to relief under the Poor Law"—

[Interruption.]

This is a more serious business than the question on which you allowed the House to be held up for five minutes just now, on Russia.

With all due respect to you, here is a decision which I got on this matter from the Lord Advocate on Friday, in writing. I gave it to the Press on Friday— [ Interruption ]—even to the "Daily Herald," and it never appeared. Had it appeared, the miners in Scotland would not have been back at work. The Government let the miners down. Here is the Lord Advocate's hand-writing—

The hon. Member must not make a disturbance. If he does, I shall have to deal with him severely.

May I raise a point of Order? It is as to whether the matter which the hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood) wanted to raise had not relation to the situation in the mining industry in Scotland, and whether that was not the question out of which his supplementary arose?

The supplementary question was really not relevant to the question on the Paper or to the answer given by the Minister; it related to another subject altogether.

Questions

Dartmoor Afforestation Scheme

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade, as representing the Forestry Commissioners, how many acres it is proposed to plant under the Dartmoor afforestation scheme; and if he has received any complaints concerning the proposals?

The Duchy of Cornwall have already planted over 1,000 acres under the Dartmoor afforestation scheme. The Forestry Commissioners are continuing the scheme, and propose ultimately to increase this area to some 5,000 acres. Complaints have been received, but they were mainly due to misapprehension of the effects of the scheme. Careful attention is being given to the preservation of the amenities of the district and of any antiquities on the land in the scheme.

Have not the public hitherto had access to the area which it is now proposed to plant; and, if that be so, haw can these amenities be preserved if the area is planted?

As far as I am aware, none of the public rights has been interfered with.

Private Schools (Departmental Committee)

( by Private Notice ) asked the President of the Board of Education whether he is yet in a position to make any announcement as to the terms of reference and the constitution of the committee which he proposes to appoint to consider the problem of private schools?

I have now appointed a departmental committee to survey the present position of the Board of Education and the local education authorities in relation to schools not in receipt of grants from public funds, and to consider what legislative or other changes are desirable for the purpose of securing that the children attending such schools receive an adequate education under suitable conditions. The membership is as follows:

Public Works Facilities Act, 1930

Certificate of the Ministry of Health under Section 1 (4) ( b ) of the Act, in respect of the following Bill, laid upon the Table by the Clerk of the House, namely:—

Public Works Facilities Scheme (Thorne and District Water).

Cumberland Market (St. Pancras) Bill

Ordered,

"That the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills do examine the Cumberland Market (St. Pancras) Bill with respect to compliance with the Standing Orders relative to Private Bills."

Orders of the Day

Unemployment Insurance Bill

Order for Second Reading read.

I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."

In opening the debate on the Money Resolution last week, the facts concerning the finance of the Unemployment Insurance Fund were fully stated by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour, and they are only too well known to the House. It is, therefore, only necessary for me to say at the present time that the debt of the Unemployment Insurance Fund on the 6th December was £57,290,000, and this debt is increasing at the rate of £700,000 a week. As the House knows, under the existing law the fund is precluded from borrowing more than £60,000,000, and this limit will be reached by about Christmas. Unless, therefore, something is done, the source from which those entitled to benefit are paid will fail at that time.

It would scarcely be necessary to remind the House, if it was not for misunderstandings which appear to have taken place, that the Bill is limited to people who have their 30 stamps. Before the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1930, all the recipients of benefit were paid out of the Unemployment Insurance Fund. That Act, however, drew a distinction for financial purposes between those recipients who had paid at least 30 contributions in the preceding two years and were qualified under the permanent provisions of the scheme, and persons who had not paid 30 contributions in the preceding two years but were in receipt of benefit under the transition provisions. Therefore, this Bill deals with the people who have the 30 stamps, and those who have not the 30 stamps come under the transitional conditions. They are a charge upon the Exchequer and their position is not a subject for this occasion.

In the first place, I wish to repeat that the present growing deficiency of the Unemployment Fund is due to the recent increase in unemployment. There seemed to be during the last debate a tendency so to enlarge upon what are called the legal abuses that it is necessary to repeat here what was inferentially stated by the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for the Isle of Thanet (Captain Balfour). He said that, although through the popular Press there was an idea that there was an enormous amount of abuse of the Unemployment Insurance Fund, he was convinced that there was not. He said abuses did exist, but they were a very small proportion. I agree with the hon. and gallant Gentleman and, if that is so, clearly the abuses are not responsible for the present position of the fund.

Reference has been made to changes effected by the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1930, but even had those changes never been made, the debt on the Fund would be rapidly rising. I think it is necessary that the House should realise that in order that we may understand whether there are abuses and what those abuses are, so that we may localise them and see that they get proper examination and judicial treatment. So far as the beneficiaries of this Fund who have 30 stamps are concerned, the Act of 1930 has had very little effect indeed upon them. It is important to emphasise that, because there seems to be a misunderstanding in quarters where one would scarcely have expected it as to the effect of the 1930 Act. I referred on the last occasion to a statement made by my predecessor in this office, and I would not have mentioned it again but for the fact that he repeated the statement a few days afterwards. May I state what he said during the last debate:

As far as I am concerned, I have no doubt whatever that the Act of 1930 had exactly those consequences which I described, because, if you take away the obligation to seek work, you clearly encourage those arrangements to which I referred.

I think the hon. Baronet's argument is one of the best possible for a Royal Commission of inquiry into the subject, because by no stretch of the imagination can the abolition of the not-genuinely-seeking-work Clause have any effect whatever upon part-time workers. As a matter of fact, the not-genuinely-seeking-work Clause was applied generally to men who had no employers. They were not only seeking work; they were seeking an employer. The part-time man had an employer and was not subject to the not-genuinely-seeking-work Clause generally. In view of that statement, it would be as well if the hon. Baronet would explain exactly in what way part-time arrangements have any connection with the not-genuinely-seeking-work Clause. That is only one instance out of many to show that in the public mind, as well as in the mind of Members of the House, there is a general tendency unduly to enlarge the area of what is called legal abuse.

The hon. Baronet not only says this is one of the results of the 1930 Act, but at the same time he says it is one of the most serious results and one of the most serious sides of the alleged abuse that has taken place. Surely, if there is abuse, the subject ought to be localised and thoroughly examined, and it does no good to this House or to anyone in the country unduly to enlarge it and lay the blame where there is really no foundation for laying it. Everyone knows that the not-genuinely-seeking-work Clause itself had been so operated that it caused very great hardship upon genuine workmen. There was never any doubt about that in the mind of those who agreed with it or those who did not, and Sir William Beveridge, whose authority is unchallenged upon this matter, has recently written, after a description of the condition:

The part-time arrangements already mentioned have operated for many years. They operated when the right hon. Gentleman and his party were in office. As a matter of fact, the question was examined by the Blanesburgh Committee. Their conclusions show that these matters do not lend themselves easily to solution, and certainly could not lend themselves to a solution such as I imagine the right hon. Gentlemen opposite have in mind. Speaking of a possible change in the continuity rule the committee says: Mail," improved upon the right hon. Gentleman by saying that 500,000 people were wrongly on the dole. That was their own phrase. The right hon. and learned Gentleman, I must say, did not read the article in the Gazette with the usual accuracy with which, we usually notice, he reads matter with which he is more familiar in other places. The article was a four-page one of eight columns, and what he did was to take a short statement from one column and link it to a statement in another column with which it had nothing to do. The article itself was not dealing with claims. It was not dealing with people who were receiving benefit. It was dealing with changes in the numbers of insured persons in the various industries. The right hon. and learned Gentleman drew attention to these two extracts:

Could the hon. Gentleman say that last sentence over again, because it was not quite clear?

The writer was dealing with the number of people who entered insurance and the number who left year by year on the average. The right hon. and learned Member for Spen Valley left out—I do not say deliberately, because I think he was quoting rather from a newspaper than from the article itself—what the writer of the article pointed out, that there was the provision in 1928 for franking the Health Insurance cards of unemployed persons. He also pointed out that, because of unemployment, there were not so many people who rose above the £250 limit and so ceased insurance. For the same reason, there were not so many people going into business on their own account as formerly. He also pointed out—I think very effectively—that there had been the drying up of the emigration scheme.

May I sum up the matter in this way? That article, as 1 have pointed out, does not say what it is alleged to say. Two sentences, entirely unconnected, have been put together and read as if they were one statement. Apart from the incorrect inference, what are the facts? The numbers insured went up by 315,000 between 1928 and 1930. This increase was over two years, from July, 1928, to July, 1930. From 1928 to 1929 there was an increase of 115,000. The Unemployment and Insurance Act did not operate then. In 1929–30 there was an increase of 200,000. In the whole two years the Act operated only three months, so that I think the House will understand that it is not true to say—

Speaking from pure memory, there was an increase of over 200,000 insured persons from 1929 to 1930.

The statement made by the writer is perfectly clear, that in the two years the increase was 315,000, that in 1928 and 1929 it was 115,000, that in 1930 it was 200,000, and that during the two years the abolition of the genuinely-seeking-work Clause only operated for three months. Therefore, it could not be possible that 315,000 persons were claiming insurance benefit merely because of that. That, I think, is just another instance of how the public can be misled by statements of that kind. Certainly if there is any justification at all for a judicial investigation by a Royal Commission, as against acting upon what are alleged abuses, it is the statements made by the right hon. Gentleman opposite and the right hon. and learned Member for Spen Valley.

Take the question of the alleged abuses of the fund. The right hon. Gentleman opposite has no solution. It is not easily capable of solution. The Blanesburgh Committee considered that matter. We have heard statements to the effect that there should be a sort of surrender value in the case of married women. On the surface that would appear to be an easy solution of the matter, but the Blanesburgh Committee unanimously rejected that solution. The reasons for this recommendation are given on page 77 of their report, but I should like to quote one of their sentences:

Nobody, of course, assumes that the Unemployment Insurance scheme is today in a satisfactory condition. The piling up of debt cannot go on; the scheme must be put on a self-supporting basis. That is agreed. There is also agreement that able-bodied employable workers who fail to qualify for insurance benefit must be provided for outside the existing arrangements. These things are agreed upon. But how much further is there any agreement? I believe, as a matter of fact, that hon. Members oppo- site are toying with the old idea of what they call the "one-in-six" rule, that is, the idea that benefit should be paid only in a fixed ratio to contributions. They must be very well aware that the Blanesburgh Committee examined that and turned it down. Hon. and right hon. Members opposite say that there is agreement, and therefore there must be action at once. I should like to put these questions to them. Is there agreement as to the details of the scheme for dealing with those who fail to qualify for benefit? Is there agreement as to the extent to which individual needs are to be taken into account? Is there agreement as to how the cost should be divided as between national and local funds? Is there agreement as to what should be the nature of the administration and control of the further scheme? Is it to be on a local or national basis?

We on this side cannot agree to any scheme which involves the mere chopping off of heads to make the fund balance. We insist that there must be a national responsibility for those who cannot maintain insurable rights. In this respect, I think it would be within our rights to ask if it is the intention of the Opposition to adopt the detailed proposals made by a Member of their party and a late Minister in the "Quarterly Review," involving the transference of persons over 50 years of age who do not qualify on a strict actuarial test, to Public Assistance, to be a burden on local funds. If so, then I say that we cannot agree to that.

I am glad to hear that the hon. Gentleman has distinctly repudiated a Member of the late Government, but I think the time has certainly arrived, in view of the fact that right hon. Gentlemen say they have a solution of this matter and that it is a matter for immediate action, to say what is their scheme for dealing with people who would be outside the ordinary benefit scheme. If hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite want immediate legislation, then I submit that there is a strong case for asking them to submit their proposals, because the Government have made it clear that the problem is difficult, that investigation is necessary, that the facts and figures have yet to be fully known, and that it is a matter for inquiry by a judicial body.

Burdensome as are these calls upon the nation, difficult as are the problems that emerge from the present industrial and commercial position, there is at least one consolation for the people of this country. In spite of everything, this nation has made great sacrifices in order to maintain the moral and self-respect of the victims of unemployment, and those sacrifices have not been altogether in vain. Hon. Members will remember that last week I gave figures as to criminal and begging prosecutions and for the working-class savings, which pointed to the fact that the great industrial masses are improving rather than deteriorating in standards of conduct. If anyone believes that the capacity for industry on the part of the unemployed is undermined, all they have to do is to offer these men work, and I venture to say that for every such offer of one job there will be 100 applicants. No one who knows the real sentiments of the great mass of unemployed can doubt that these victims of the present situation would be much happier at work than they are now.

There has recently been published a review of the great mass of people of London which clearly shows that, in spite of all the difficulties, the general standard of conduct and character in this great city is improving. In spite of the charges made, in spite of the burdens that have to be borne, the nation is instinctively conscious that it is not only humane but good business to continue the unemployment insurance benefits which have had a good effect on the great mass of people.

I beg to move, to leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, and to add instead thereof the words:

"this House declines to proceed with the Bill until the Government has declared its policy regarding the admitted abuses now causing a continuing waste of the insurance funds."

The House has seldom listened with greater astonishment to anything than to the concluding passages of the speech of the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down. As the Minister responsible for the Second Reading of a Bill of some consequence, he had nothing better to offer the House than the suggestion that the Opposition should legislate for it. The Government have been for long like a committee of penguins seated on an ice floe drifting into hot water. Their only recent hope has been to co-opt a polar bear. But in these last proposals they have surpassed themselves. I have never heard of a Government moving a Measure of first-class importance when they have had no positive proposal to offer of any kind or description. What was the proposal on which the Minister herself got the Financial Resolution? It was on the announcement that a Royal Commission was to be set up—a Royal Commission of action. The hon. Member repeated that again in his closing statement last week, when he said he was authorised by the Minister to say that it was going to be a Commission of action, and not one for the purpose of playing for time. At least to-day we should have had some statement that the Royal Commission is now complete. The House is about to rise for the Christmas adjournment and we are within a short period of the time when it is most difficult for Royal Commissions to sit and obtain evidence. We are beginning to wonder if it is seriously meant. I would ask, is the Commission complete?

I hope that the Prime Minister will be in a position to announce the names of the Commission to-morrow, and that a meeting will be held at an early date.

That is a more important statement than the whole of the Parliamentary Secretary's speech. We are told that the Commission is about to be completed, that the names are to be announced to-morrow and that a meeting will be held at an early date. What is the position which the Minister seeks to justify? The position is that after repeated denunciations of the practice of borrowing which are familiar to every side of the House, after pluming herself on her virtue in avoiding borrowing, the Minister is now borrowing at a rate which is greater than that of her predecessor and for which she foresees no limit. With an income of £45,000,000 and an expenditure of £107,000,000, of which some £90,000,000 is going in benefit and the remainder on administrative charges and interest payment, the Minister has no other solution to offer to the House than that the position is a very difficult one and needs a careful inquiry. Surely that has been obvious to the Minister for a year past. [An HON. MEMBER: "Ever since capitalism started!"] That may be so, but the Minister is now responsible for the Government of the country, and the Government of the country was handed over to hon. Members opposite, on their claim that they would do it better than those who preceded them. [An Hon. MEMBER: "So they will!"] It may be, but it has not yet been accomplished. The present action of the Government leads us to think it never will be accomplished.

This matter raises the whole question of unemployment relief and unemployment benefit. We had a narrow debate on the Financial Resolution last week. To-day we have the Second Reading of this Bill. To-morrow there will be a separate Vote of £10,000,000 owing to the (miscalculation of the Minister and the Treasury on the expenditure involved by the passing of their legislation. The Minister states that the Commission is now practically complete and will meet at an early date. We know that there will be laid before the Commission evidence by the Government of the day. Let the Minister put that evidence before the House of Commons. We have as much right to know it as the Royal Commission. There are Members here as capable of forming conclusion as any members of a Royal Commission. More than once in the past the House has not hesitated to overturn the solutions arrived at by Royal Commission. If it does not carry conviction to the House of Commons, then the report of a Royal Commission may easily be disregarded as has been done before. The question of abuses is not merely a question of analysis of figures. The question of the legal abuses is one of high policy. There are abuses which can be remedied administratively. We have heard nothing about that to-day except the statement that the question was not as easy as it looked. Last week the Minister said, speaking of the case of the married women:

On dock workers, which raises the question of the intermittent worker. The hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) made a speech on this subject in the last debate. I read that speech with great interest. The hon. and gallant Member "brought forward a suggestion of which I am afraid he does not fully realise the implications. He said, "Let the industry carry their own unemployed; let the docks carry the out-of-work doekers." Has he gone into the figures? Has he realised what a strain that would be upon the earnings of the dock workers?

Is the hon. and gallant Member aware that I explained this matter before he entered Parliament, 10 years ago? I explained it in some detail in the House and received a good deal of support on both sides.

The hon. and gallant Member's mistakes in that single sentence are so numerous that it would take me a considerable time to indicate them all. He did not get into Parliament before I did. He got in at a by-election, and I got in at the previous General Election. I was in this House actually before he was a Member of it. If these things happen in the green tree what shall be done in the dry? If the hon. and gallant Member does not even know when his hon. colleagues entered this House, what credence can be attached to his exhaustive researches into a subject with which he is necessarily less acquainted?

I made a mistake, but the hon. and gallant Member was such an infrequent attender then that I did not think he was a Member.

As to my infrequent attendance, I am willing to put my record in the Division Lobbies against the record of the hon. and gallant Member. It is true that I did not talk so much, but I thought the more. The hon. and gallant Member states that he has gone into this question and that he expounded it very thoroughly 10 years ago. Let us look at a single example in the report on the Liverpool Docks. What does the Lord Mayor's report say? That report indicates that for 20,000 tally holders in the Port of Liverpool in the year 1929 £45,083 was paid in by the employers and the employed. Added to that would be the State contributions of something like £30,000. How much was paid out during that time? No less a sum than £352,828. What does "the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull think that would represent in the way of an actuarial insurance premium against such a risk? The figures for the dock workers, taken over a period of years, have been given by Sir William Beveridge, who says that the dock, harbour, river and canal workers paid into the fund per head over a period of four year, 1924–29—omitting the year 1926, which was the year of the great industrial struggle—£11, and drew out £38. He indicate that that is one of the groups of industries in which the actuarial risk is so great that it is only covered over a period of years by charging a totally unjust premium on other groups, which are more or less carrying themselves. If the Royal Commission are to go into all these cases, trade by trade, group by group, class by class, what hope will there be of a report from them in time for the rapid and drastic action of which the Minister speaks? [HON. MEMBEKS: "That is not our policy!"] If it is not the policy of hon. Members below the Gangway opposite, it is the policy of the Government.

The Prime Minister said so. He said that the terms of reference would include inquiry into the means whereby the fund might be made solvent and self-supporting, and the Government, the Minister of Labour and the Parliamentary Secretary have said that the Royal Commission will issue immediate interim reports. The Minister of Labour has told us to-day that the first meeting of the Commission is to be held at an early date.

Our point is that insurance by industry is not our policy, or the policy of the Government.

I said that it was the policy of the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull. My complaint is that there is difficulty in finding out the Government policy. It is concealed as if it was something obscene. The only thing that I can get is the policy of hon. Members below the Gangway. I have dealt with the proposal of the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull, and it would appear that to cover the actuarial risk an increased premium of something like threefold would have to be exacted if the industry was to cover its own risks in accordance with the figures which have transpired with respect to the four years 1924–1929. We have had other proposals brought forward by hon. Members below the Gangway opposite. We had a very interesting suggestion from the hon. Member for West Nottingham (Mr. Hayday). The Minister of Labour had been asked what would be the position as to certain people who were to be dealt with when the Fund had been made solvent and self-supporting. The hon. Member for West Nottingham suggested that those people should come in some way under the control of the public assistance committees. That was a very remarkable statement from him. He said:

"I would not send them to the Public Assistance Committees but I would let the Public Assistance authorities, in conjunction with the Treasury, who should make substantial contributions, have something to say as to how the money should be administered."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 1st December, 1930; col. 1863, Vol. 245.]

On this Bill the Minister asks us our view with regard to the future administration of the Fund. She must ask herself and she must ask her own supporters. It is the responsibility of the Government to bring forward proposals. I think that the Minister herself was about to deal with this matter when she was pulled up by the Chairman of the Committee. She said:

"Is there agreement with regard to the nature of the scheme, including the rates of payment and the extent to which individual needs are to be taken into account …"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 1st December, 1930; col. 1831, Vol. 245.]

That clearly adumbrates a means test, but she was pulled up by the Chairman. She will not be pulled up by the Chairman to-day, and she will be at liberty to develop the point. We shall be interested to know what she has to say.

I should have thought that she would have been in order in dealing with the matter in explaining the evidence which it is proposed to lay before the Royal Commission. The Royal Commission is one of the excuses given in asking for this huge sum. Would it not be in order for her to outline the Government's policy?

All we are concerned with to-day is the increase of borrowing powers by £10,000,000.

I bow to your Ruling, but I would point out that the main argument brought forward by the Government for this Bill is that they have appointed a Royal Commission, and we are using this opportunity, our only Parliamentary opportunity, of pressing to know the policy of the Government which they intend to lay before the Royal Commission, and that it should be sketched out to us in connection with this Bill.

Cannot we also have the witnesses that will appear before the Royal Commission?

The proposals which the Government have put forward today are proposals with which we cannot agree on the ground that they are not giving any explanations to the House. They are proposing to deal in a temporary fashion with a permanent difficulty. All their arguments show that the difficulty is not a transient but a permanent difficulty, and all the arguments advanced in their favour are arguments for the continuation of present arrangements as a permanent policy. If this is to be permanent policy to cover a permanent difficulty, it must be covered either by higher contributions or higher taxation, and the House of Commons has a right to say that the means by which the Minister proposes to meet the deficit should be sketched out when she is proposing, as in this Bill, to borrow against a recurring and permanent need. Her course is one which the Government are called upon to justify as a course which ought to be commended to the House and to the country. Various journals have done their best to get a statement of Government policy. The "New Statesman," which generally supports the Government, has made a definite statement that in its opinion there ought to be a means test for the people who leave the fund and come into the transitional benefit. I do not want to pursue that point. The Government will make their answer in their own time.

The fact is, that an attempt is being made to insure against the uninsurable. There is no actuarial risk corresponding to this so-called risk against which we are asked to insure. An unlimited liability for out of work benefit is not a liability which has ever been insured against before. The great trade unions did not insure against it, and there is no insurance system which has ever been worked which covered this unlimited liability. The Government say that they propose to deal with the question. How? Are they going to raise the contributions to cover the benefit? If so, let them consider what is being done in Germany. In Germany the contributions to cover benefits rise to over 3s. 3d. per head as against the 1s. 3d. charged in this country.

I bow to your Ruling, but I do suggest that it is important to consider suggestions for making the fund solvent.

The fund, it is said, balances at 1,200,000. It carries in benefit at present about 1,900,000 and, therefore, the number it is necessary to strike off in order to make it balance is about 750,000, or at least half a million. Has the Minister of Labour any intention of striking off that number of persons, and, if so, what does she propose to do with those who are so struck off? The right hon. Lady has claimed that she is going to make the fund self-supporting by the recommendations of the Royal Commission. It must be made self-supporting either by an increase in the contributions or by striking this army of people off the fund. When the Minister brings forward these far-reaching suggestions we are entitled to ask that she shall explain to the House what she means by them. The analysis which has been made by Sir William Beveridge has already been referred to, and the hon. Member for Leith (Mr. E. Brown) has called attention to the remarkable figures of certain industries, how some show great profits and others are an enormous drain on the Unemployment Insurance Fund.

I understood that the hon. and gallant Member was moving the Amendment on the Paper. If so, the Amendment does not deal with the number of persons on the fund.

The Amendment deals specifically with abuses, and the Minister of Labour has herself put forward the point that the great strain caused by short-time and intermittent work is precisely one of the abuses which she desires to remedy. Surely I shall be in order in giving examples of these abuses. I fail to see how the Opposition can put their case if they are not allowed to quote examples of the abuses which they desire to see remedied.

I should like to see a definition of the word "abuse," otherwise under the Amendment there would be no end to the debate.

I can do no more than quote the statement of the Minister. Her statement was that in both cases, the Garfield Colliery and the London furniture trade, the question of short-time was so balanced as to secure unemployment benefit for the remainder of the time, and on the Financial Resolution of this Bill she said:

"I want to make it perfectly clear that in both these cases the action is perfectly legal as the Act stands at present. It is not an illegal abuse of the Fund, but I say that it is a development which was never contemplated when the Fund was established."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 1st December, 1930; col. 1837, Vol. 245.]

I do not think I was speaking of increasing the benefits. If I did so, I was entirely wrong. I was speaking to the question of increasing the contributions, of diminishing the risks and so arguing that this £10,000,000 should not be granted. I hope I may be in order in arguing that if the contributions were raised the necessity for this extra borrowing would not arise.

I am arguing that this extra borrowing should not be agreed to, and I am liable to the accusation that we are not bringing forward any constructive proposals if I am not allowed to argue such questions as that the contributions should be increased. However, I do not desire to enlarge upon that matter. The difficulties before us are patent and obvious, and they are difficulties of policy. The fact that we cannot discuss this matter without being brought up against Amendments of the Act shows our difficulties. We are asked to vote an additional £10,000,000 to last only a few months time and the House has a right to ask that it should have complete information. I had intended to examine the position as regards the length of time this depression is likely to continue, and thus whether borrowing would carry us over our difficult time, but I do not wish, Mr. Speaker, to come into conflict with your Ruling and I will not go into that matter. Yet Mr. Love-day and Sir Arthur Salter, both of the League of Nations, have stressed the point that the difficulties of this country are special to itself, and that they are difficulties which will not be cleared away merely by a revival of world trade. Sir Arthur Salter, in the "Times" this morning, says of all our system: It is

"in its general character defensive, regulative, rigid, not creative; directive, not elastic. It neither guides, reforms, nor adapts."

That is our charge against the present Government and against this Vote.

:I beg to second the Amendment.

I want, in the first place, to take grave exception to something which fell from the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour regarding a gentleman who used to be a Member of this House. I refer to Colonel Headlam. The Parliamentary Secretary went out of his way to misrepresent an article which Colonel Headlam wrote, and this afternoon he has again raised the question. The hon. and gallant Member for Kelvingrove (Major Elliot) has stated perfectly correctly that the views of Colonel Headlam are his own and not the views of this party, but it is an abuse of the rules of this House for the Parliamentary Secretary to make speeches about a gentleman who is doing a great deal of political work in his own county and to make mendacious observations regarding him.

Will the hon. and gallant Member tell the House in what way I misrepresented Colonel Headlam?

I gather that it will not be in order for me to quote from the statements made the other night, but the effect of what the Parliamentary Secretary said was that this party, including Colonel Headlam, wanted to put all men over 50 years of age who may be outside the field of insurance on to the Poor Law.

May I say that that is the definite statement made in the article to which I referred.

I have no doubt that the remarks of the Parliamentary Secretary were made entirely for the benefit of electors in Colonel Headlam's Division. May I quote just two sentences from the article in question? Referring to those who may be outside the field of insurance Colonel Headlam says:

"For those, in the present state of our civilisation, some provision other than that laid down by the Poor Law will have to be made."

That is the first sentence. Let me now quote the second sentence:

"No sound scheme for the reform of the insurance system can be effective except with some reform of the existing Poor Law."

In spite of what the hon. and gallant Member has said, I definitely assert that in that article it is plainly laid down that those over 50 shall go on to the public assistance committee.

That is not what the Parliamentary Secretary said previously, and it is not the inference which any one reading his remarks would have drawn. It is somewhat doubtful how far this topic is in order at the moment, and, therefore, I will merely say this: that I think it is most deplorable and despicable for an hon. Member to say things in this House against a former hon. Member who cannot answer them. The speech of the Parliamentary Secretary was really a series of questions addressed to the Opposition Front Bench as to what they would do to deal with the Unemployment Insurance Fund. I took down a whole string of questions as to what we should propose to do about those who failed to qualify, about administration, and questions in regard to national and local funds. My answer to the Parliamentary Secretary is the same as that which was made on the 9th November, 1928, by the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, who was dealing with the question of unemployment in the mining areas. The then Chancellor of the Exchequer the right hon. Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) asked:

"How are you going to get the miners away from the depressed areas?"

and the present Chancellor of the Exchequer said:

"It is not for us to put forward proposals. We have innumerable proposals, but we are not discussing that question at the present moment. We are now discussing the failure of the Government to deal with this problem"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 9th November, 1928; col. 393, Vol. 222.]

That is my answer to the Parliamentary Secretary. It is not the Opposition which is being attacked, it is the Government. The policy of loans for the Unemployment Insurance Fund is one about which Government spokesmen have said very different things during the last 12 months.

If the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) is going to attack the Government he will no doubt be able to do that later. When the right hon. Lady first increased the borrowing powers she told us that she considered it a vicious proceeding. The next time, 12 months ago, she said it was a dishonest course. The next time she called it monstrous—vicious, dishonest, monstrous. Now the right hon. Lady says that there is really nothing to choose between any of us, because we are all sinners alike. It is somewhat feeble to talk about it being vicious, dishonest and monstrous, and then to claim that we are all fellow sinners. The truth is that this sum of money, which has to be found, this increase of borrowing powers, has to be made because of the increase in unemployment. If the Government had bestirred themselves a little earlier, if the schemes of the late Lord Privy Seal were not, in his own words, all humbug, we need not have had to deal with the situation which faces us to-day. To my utter amazement I read in to-day's "Times" a speech of the President of the Board of Trade at Middlesbrough. Apparently the right hon. Gentleman has nothing better to do at week-ends than to make political speeches. I should have thought he had enough to do to try and get things into better order. At Middlesbrough he said that the Government had pursued a definite programme in dealing with unemployment. That is a most extraordinary statement. A definite programme in dealing with unemployment had led the Government to ask for this further£10,000,000 in order to finance the unemployment scheme.[ Interruption. ] Apparently hon. Members opposite below the Gangway are pinning their faith to the spring time and the dictatorship of five.

It is the increase of unemployment which has caused the Government to come down and ask for this further£10,000,000. It is really one of the most pathetic situations that the House can be called on to face, because the Government have been given an opportunity which has been given to no other Government and probably will never be given to any of their successors. Eighteen months ago, when they came in, they not only had the—then, at any rate;—unanimous support of the trade union world, but the good will of every section of the employing community in this country. Everybody was prepared to give them a chance. What has been the result? If the right Hon. Lady goes back to her Browning, she will read of "The Lost Leader," and find that

"They, with the gold to give, doled him out silver."

The unemployed population is looking to the Government to give them the lead of the gold of employment, but we are merely doling out pieces of silver and having to find £10,000,000 more.

I do not know what the hon. Member's trouble is; I am not one of the party to which the hon. Member belongs. He is trying to harry me, but, if he takes part in the debate in due course, he will be able to put his own view, if any. The right hon. Lady told us the other night that, as a result of the changes of the 1930 Act, and therefore one of the contributory reasons for the need of a further sum of money for the fund, 110,000 persons who before had been disallowed benefit had now come on to the fund, plus 70,000 married women who were not before qualified. That is to say, that 180,000 more people are within the ambit of the fund owing to the 1930 Act. As I work it out, that is roughly equivalent to the number of people for whom the Government have directly or indirectly found a job; that is to say, 165,000 people have found jobs, 4,500 have been found jobs on the extra staff of the Ministry of Labour, and 500 have found jobs on the personnel of the various committees which have been set up.

The other night, and again this afternoon, the Minister has brought up the question whether or not there is any demoralisation of the unemployed. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has told us that ernment the psychological argument. I will now instance the case of a man who had not had a job for 12 months, but had been on the Fund. Within the last month he was offered a job at a farm, during the sugar-beet season, at a good wage; there was no question about that. He turned the job down on the ground that the actual farm where he was going to be found accommodation was 11 miles from his own home, and that he could not get there, although, in fact—his case was turned down by the referee, and I am only putting the psychological case; I am not criticising the administration of the Act—it was actually proved that the omnibus passed within two miles of the farm.

No, it was provided for in the Act. There is no question of administration, abuse, or anything like that in the case that I have quoted. The point is the psychological difference between two persons that came within my experience. One was that of a man who bicycled 1,000 miles or more over the country looking for a job some seven years ago, and the other was that of a man who turned a job down, though he had been 12 months out of work, because there was a distance of two miles between the house where he was going to stay and the terminus of the route of the omnibus which would have taken him there. If he had not the money to pay his fare on the omnibus, no doubt ways and means would have been found to have helped him to pay.

It will not do. The hon. and gallant Gentleman should compare the same man at different times.

I should be sorry to do that. The hon. Gentleman's political views have not always been the same.

No. I am very touchy on that point. I want the hon. and gallant Gentleman either to substantiate the very serious charge he has made against me, or withdraw it. I am afraid I am one of the very few men in this House whose views have not changed.

I thought that it was a well-known joke in the House that at times the hon. Member for Bridgeton and the hon. and gallant Gentleman who spoke just before him (Major Elliot) had been in different parties in their respective universities, and had had long and academic debates. If, however, the hon. Member for Bridgeton is at all aggrieved by that—I thought I had heard him say so in the House—I will let it go.

I apologise to my hon. and gallant Friend. I thought that he was referring to the incidents of the last three or four years, whereas he was referring to a quarter of a century ago.

It is much safer to go further back. I was not referring to any incident of the last three or four years, or even of the last three or four days. The hon. Gentleman will, perhaps, now allow me to get on with what I have to say. The second line of argument which I would like to meet from the Parliamentary Secretary was the most astonishing one, which he reproduced to-day, that there could be nothing demoralising about this system of unemployment insurance—although many people agree that it is breaking down rapidly, and the fact that another £10,000,000 is required to feed the fund indicates that. The hon. Gentleman says that there is no proof of demoralisation, because the statistics, if you please, of begging have gone down, and whereas in 1910 there were 25,000 cases of begging in 1928 there were only 5,000. He also said that another proof that there was no demoralisation in the case of the section of a community which largely drew on this fund was the enormous increase in the receipts of savings societies; in effect, that an enormous amount of thrift was being developed in the country. I can see no kind of relation between those arguments and the need of feeding the fund; they are about as relevant as to say, "It was a very foggy day on Friday." They have nothing to do with it at all, but, if they had, the only conclusion one could reach would be that there was so much money going about that people could save out of it; that the benefits received were too great. Otherwise, goodness knows what the hon. Gentleman meant by bringing in that argument at all.

The fund finds itself in this position because of our trade situation. In spite of the remarks of the President of the Board of Trade at Middlesbrough, the position of this country is desperately serious. The extraordinary fact which the House is asked to look at is that in this country we have the highest expenditure on social services, the highest taxation in the world and the highest unemployment figures. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh !"] I know of no other country which has a percentage of 18, which was quoted by the Government last week. There must be some connection between those three facts and the wasteful finance of the Government. If we look back to the speeches which right hon. and hon. Gentlemen and right hon. and hon. Ladies made when in Opposition, we shall find that, when we brought in a Bill to extend the loan powers of this fund, the right hon. Gentleman who is now Secretary of State for War said—I think the right hon. Lady the Minister of Labour said so, certainly her lady colleague the hon. Member for East Ham, North (Miss Lawrence) said so—that it was quite hopeless to think that this fund would ever be repaid, and the thing one ought to do was to wash it out and begin all over again. For what they were worth those views would indicate that there is very little chance of the money being repaid; in fact, it is a direct raid on the Sinking Fund. To that extent, it is on all fours with the general financial policy of the Government, when we think that the Minister of Health tells us that we can afford everything we would like; when the President of the Board of Education brings in a Bill and says that it will cost £8,000,000, or whatever it is; and when the Minister of Agriculture comes with another Bill, and then says, "Why did not I ask for more?" When right hon. Gentlemen, colleagues of the right hon. Lady, take that sort of attitude, we cannot be too hard in criticising her for her own finance, because she cannot be expected to rise to the heights to which the Ministers I have quoted have risen. This is what the hon. Lady the Member for East Ham, North said:

The hon. and gallant Member is now transgressing beyond the proposals of the Bill before the House.

I was only trying to argue that if the Government carry out their own declared intentions, then this sum of £10,000,000 will be exhausted even earlier than they anticipated when they passed the Money Resolution. I leave the matter at that. A more absolute condemnation of the Government could not be found than the fact that every two minutes, since they took over the seals of office, three people have been thrown out of work in this country. With industry and commerce and employment in the position in which we find them to-day, all that the Government can do is to come to this House to borrow more money for a purpose which the Minister of Labour herself has described as vicious, dishonest and mon strous. All they can do is to ask for more money for that purpose which is described by the Latin word panem while also asking the House to provide the circenses by subsidising opera.

In spite of the fact that we are here discussing serious matters at a time when our country is in a state which can, without inaccuracy, be described as bordering upon a crisis, I cannot free my mind from the impression that there is a certain amount of unreality about this debate. In the first place, in spite of the Amendment which has just been moved I cannot think that anybody in this House seriously intends or wishes to reject the Bill. I do not know that any hon. Member is prepared to face the social and economic consequences which would follow the rejection of this Measure. In the second place, we are discussing this subject under the shadow of a Royal Commission, and in many of the arguments which we may advance, in many of the matters which we may consider, we shall really be beating the air, because these matters will, in all probability, be considered by the Royal Commission and will come back again in some form or another for subsequent discussion in this House. We seem to be developing increasingly a system of Government by commissions and committees. It is a form of sporadic devolution which may have some advantages—I can see some myself—but it certainly has one disadvantage in that it tends to postpone indefinitely the solution of any urgent problem which may happen to be on hand.

There seems to be a sort of undercurrent of belief running through the arguments addressed to this House, both on the Money Resolution and also this afternoon, that a very large saving of public money might be effected by some reorganisation and alteration of the insurance system of this country. I wish that some right hon. or hon. Gentleman would rise in his place and indicate how this is to be done. While I can see the necessity for reorganisation, while I realise the existence of abuses, I do not see for myself how there is anything more to be achieved than the re-arrangement of the distribution and expenditure of this money, unless indeed, the country is to go back upon the principle which has been accepted for a very long time that destitution is not to be allowed, that the people are not to be allowed to starve.

How then does the hon. Member defend borrowing? If a reduction in expenditure is ever to be made, surely the bill must be met.

I have just stated my belief that nobody for that reason intends to reject this Bill and I shall state, before I conclude, that there is only one way in which as far as I can see this great expenditure can be reduced substantially and by an amount which would really count in the national finances. That is by the provision of work by the recovery of trade and so on. To come back to my argument, I cannot but think, speaking for myself, that with regard to some of the points which have been discussed this afternoon and on previous occasions in connection with this subject, there is no occasion at all to refer them to a Royal Commission. I cannot but think that the records of the Ministry of Labour, with the experience which the Minister herself possesses, contain all the information which is necessary for dealing with the question, for instance, of the married women. Arguments have been addressed to this House relative to the abolition of the not-genuinely-seeking-work condition. No doubt, in one respect, the abolition of that condition has increased expenditure under the fund and consequently increased the necessity for this Bill, in relation to its application to the problem of the married women.

In the quotation which the Parliamentary Secretary made from the Blanesburgh Committee's Report with regard to the position of the married women, it is stated quite plainly that they must be covered by the Insurance Fund. There is no doubt about that, and I also agree with what the right hon. Lady has said that at the present time payments of benefit are being made under conditions which ought to be stopped and that that state of things arises in some measure from the withdrawal of the not-genuinely-seeking-work condition. But no one can suggest that it is right that women, on their marriage, and on definitely taking up the attitude that they are going to contract out of the field of labour and the field of insurance, should continue to draw benefit indefinitely. On the other hand, employers of labour and the married women themselves, cannot be expected to contribute for long years to a fund from which they may not get any benefit at all. I should have thought that it would have been quite reasonable to have drawn up a scheme, with the assistance of actuaries, under which there would have been payment of benefit upon marriage and some definition of the terms of re-entry into industry if through any mishap the circumstances of an applicant became changed and she wanted to get back into industry. I cannot see any reason why a question of that kind should have been subjected to the delay which is inevitably associated with a Royal Commission.

In like manner I think that there are other questions which might well have been settled without reference to the Royal Commission. The question of seasonal work for instance is perfectly well known and understood and could have been settled quite satisfactorily on the Floor of this House. But when we come to consider the wider and more serious aspects of the "legal abuses"—if that be the right description of them—which are going on, then I think there are matters which call for consideration by a Royal Commission. There is the great and deliberate creation of short-term unemployment, instances of which have been quoted to the House. The right hon. Lady the other day quoted a circular from a colliery—the Garfield colliery, I think—concerning an arrangement the result of which was that while wages were to be reduced, the men were to work only three days a week and, when unemployment benefit was taken into account, the effect was to neutralise the reduction of wages. The men would, in fact, be better off—I think that was the effect of the statement. When we hear a statement of that kind it is clear that we are back upon the principles of Speenhamland on a much more serious and very much wider scale than ever happened in this country before.

The hon. Baronet the Member for Rushcliffe (Sir H. Betterton) quoted the case of coal-trimmers at Cardiff or Barry or somewhere in South Wales and I have come across considerable evidence of the fact that this process is going on, in connection with the distributive trades.

Owing to the existing state of unemployment among shop assistants it is quite possible—indeed the practice has grown up—to employ shop assistants for special purposes and on special days of the week. They are employed, for instance, on a Friday and a Saturday at a somewhat higher rate of wages than they would receive in the normal way and they are unemployed and drawing benefit for the rest of the time. That, it seems to me, is deliberately creating permanent unemployment among a certain number of shop-assistants and maintaining casual part-time employment among a certain number of others. These are serious matters and are matters for consideration by a Royal Commission. So serious and so widespread has this practice become that if it was proposed to discontinue it, the result might very well be that it would not only be a question of insurance which would have to be considered. It might not be merely the extent of short-term employment which would have to be considered, but the question of whether a very large permanent increase of long-term unemployment would not be caused by the winding up of the industries concerned. That is a very serious economic question which may have to be faced when this matter is finally considered, and therefore I approve in that respect of the remission of such questions to a Royal Commission.

There has been some discussion on the consequences of the withdrawal of the not-genuinely-seeking-work condition. There has been spread abroad a belief which I consider to be erroneous, that with the notable exception of the married women, and some others, there has been a great increase of expenditure owing to the withdrawal of the condition. If by that criticism it is meant that there has been an increase of malingering and that persons have obtained benefit who would otherwise not have obtained it in any considerable numbers, and who ought not to have obtained it, then I challenge that statement and I wish to refute that criticism. In the conditions which have obtained since the not-genuinely-seeking-work condition was revised such a state of things could not have developed.

If there had been, since the Clause was revised or withdrawn, an increasing volume of employment in this country, and if there had been also a certain number of malingerers, the state of things which is the subject of criticism might have occurred, but unfortunately we have been faced with a steady increase in the volume of unemployment ever since the Clause was withdrawn. It followed, therefore, that if the whole army of unemployed had been ceaselessly on the march from dawn until midnight visiting factory doors from one end of the country to the other there would not have been a single man or woman more employed than has been the case in the existing circumstances. I think that that line of criticism is not one which can be maintained. I have not heard it suggested—I should like to know whether it is the fact—that there is any volume of opinion in this House, or in any party in this House, which proposes to restore the condition of not-genuinely-seeking-work?

I am glad to find that there does not appear to be anyone who proposes to restore it. It is a provision which should never have been on the Statute Book at all. It strikes at the whole purpose for which the employment Exchanges and insurance system in this country were originally established. The Employment Exchanges were established for the purpose of bringing the employer and the employed into close contact and also for the purpose of linking up district with district. The purpose of the Act was to improve the whole of the system and to prevent the disorganisation of the labour market of this country, and the effect of the not-genuinely-seeking-work Clause was to strengthen the miserable and infamous "stand" system which has been mentioned this afternoon by the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Kelvingrove (Major Elliot) as the subject of inquiry by the Lord Mayor of Liverpool, and to perpetuate the hawking of labour. All these disadvantages, which are a source of waste and inefficiency and a loss of public money, have been brought about by the inclusion of that provision in unemployment insurance, and I hope—and I am glad to find that I am not challenged—that there is no one in this House who wishes to restore that particular provision to the Statute Book on any future occasion. One would be interested to know what the attitude would be, because we must not forget that the omission of that provision from our legislation is temporary and will come into force again on the 1st July, 1933.

The employers of this country can render no greater service at this time in connection with unemployment than to register promptly and universally all their engagements and vacancies for labour at the Employment Exchange. If there are any employers in the land who still think that there is any abuse of any kind or malingering, they need not wait for the findings of a Royal Commission, or refer the question to any committee, or wait for the right hon. Lady the Minister of Labour to come to this House and propose legislation. They can cure it at once, and finally, by notifying their vacancies promptly and universally to the Employment Exchanges. It would thereby save a very considerable sum of public money, because, if that were done, it would be impossible for any man to be unemployed for an hour longer than there was a job vacant which he could possibly fill.

I would like to refer to the result of the investigation in Liverpool which has a very considerable bearing upon the question that we are considering this afternoon. It reveals, as the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Kelvingrove has pointed out, a very great difference between the amount which is contributed to the fund and the amount which has been drawn out by the dockside industry of Liverpool. It illustrates what is going on over the whole of the country in connection with our industrial life. The system of subsidies for certain industries has grown up at the expense of other industries. It is, indeed, a matter which requires careful and serious consideration. Rather more emerges from the Liverpool experiment than was conveyed by that short statement. It appears that at the end of the War the dock industry of Liverpool—and, I notice of other industries, too—like the building industry and the construction industry were actually short of labour. It would have been in order and right for them without any hardship to have stabilised the amount of labour which was required for the industry. They did not do so. They have, perhaps, by mismanaging their affairs and failing to organise their labour supplies attracted a large volume of casual labour into the industry, and maintained it at the expense of other industries. One cannot help thinking that if this matter is remitted, as I hope it may be, for serious consideration to the Royal Commission the Commission will make some recommendation which will put an end to the existing state of things. It may be that such a recommendation would set free a large number of men who would be permanently unemployed, but that would have this advantage to the nation as a whole; we should know the size and nature of the problem we were called upon to face and be able intelligently to set about methods for dealing with it. At the moment we are, in many of these problems, groping in the dark.

I sincerely hope that it will be dealt with and that the Government will come down to the House with proposals at no distant date. I shall be glad if the Minister of Labour can give us some indication of those subjects upon which she hopes to receive interim reports and in regard to which she intends to come down to the House and ask for Measures to put matters right in the interests of industry and of employés. For the last 10 years an immense amount of time has been wasted by this House, and wasted by Governments, considering variations of our unemployment insurance system. It has taken up an immense amount of time. In so far as the Government have been successful in dealing with the immediate necessities of the moment and alleviating the difficulties, they have slackened in their efforts, which ought to have been made continuously, for dealing with the matter of prevention rather than of temporary cure. I read the other day the speech which I addressed to this House a few months ago when the last Bill of this kind was introduced. It was rather a humiliating experience. Here we are again covering very largely the same ground which we have gone over for years and years. I only hope that this is the last occasion on which the House will be called upon to consider temporary measures and palliatives of this character.

I have been wondering while sitting here when one would hear the last of what is admitted to be a very difficult question. On four or five occasions I have heard objections raised to the appointment of a Royal Commission. Those who raise that objection seem to ignore altogether the genesis of the whole case. Unemployment insurance was not started yesterday. The initial stages of this system go back to the Act of 1911, of which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) is declared to be the author. They seem to forget that in the initial stages Unemployment Insurance was confined to half-a-dozen scheduled trades, trades in which the employment was standardised and was permanent, and where they had only to apply to one individual employer. That state of affairs went on until 1920. But a mistake occurred. The fly in the ointment, as I prophesied in this House at the time it was proposed, was the extension of the provisions of the 1911 Act to practically the whole of the workers of the country, including the labourer employed at the docks. At that time I prophesied the confusion which would ensue. The putting of men under the provisions of an Act of Parliament which did not fit them and were never intended for them could not possibly, by any means, turn out to be a success. The prophecy has been more than fulfilled. The hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Kelvingrove (Major Elliot) was very unfortunate in selecting for his illustration the docks of this country, and particularly the Liverpool Docks. I wonder if the hon. and gallant Gentleman and the House generally are aware that a Government Departmental. Committee of Inquiry, of which I happen to be a Member, is now sitting and going into this very question. The Maclean Committee has been sitting for years upon this question in an endeavour to produce order out of confusion and chaos. We are practically on the eve of submitting a report. I will tell the House the situation. As I have pointed out, this Act was originally intended to apply to a few scheduled skilled trades. The confusion commenced from the time of the extension of the Act to include all and sundry, including the casual labourers.

If one looks at the debates which have taken place in this House, the whole of the blame for this confusion seems to be placed on the present Government, who had nothing whatever to do with the initial stages of the Act. The only oppor- tunity they had was in 1924 when they found confusion already present and when they endeavoured to remedy it to the best of their ability. The casual labourer comes into this Act entirely under different conditions from those relating to any other men. The casual labourer has no standardisation. He has no security of tenure. He has no permanent employment. As a matter of fact, under the conditions of his employment he is compelled to make two applications for employment in one day, and he has two, three, four, and sometimes five and six different employers during the week. In such circumstances, is it to be wondered at that mistakes occur? I would venture to suggest that when inquiries are made into other trades a similar state of circumstances will be found to exist.

The hon. Gentleman wanted an inquiry before the £10,000,000 is granted. That would mean that hundreds of thousands of people would be struck off the register between the inquiry and the granting of the money. He complains that the Government have given no Teasons; he has himself given no reasons, for there was only confusion in his mind. As far back as 1911, the Lord Mayor of Liverpool, Sir Alfred Booth, chairman of the Cunard Steamship Company, and I laid the foundation of what we considered to be the only way of applying the Unemployment Insurance Act to the casual labourer, but we found serious difficulties. As a matter of fact, there is no solution of this question which will affect the ordinary casual labourer unless he gets a specific administration to himself.

The hon. and gallant Member for Gainsborough (Captain Crookshank) spoke about getting something for nothing—which was a most unfortunate reference coming from him—and he quoted the case of a farm servant. A man is offered a job at a farm, and has a long way to travel. The hon. and gallant Member says two miles, but the man said 11 miles; we will split the difference and make it five. Would the hon. and gallant Member like to travel that distance? The wages of a farm labourer to-day are 30s. a week. A man working away from his home has to take his food with him, he has wife and family to keep, and he has railway or omnibus fare to pay. The hon. and gallant Gentleman is more fortunate, for-he has a Rolls Royce and a chauffeur.

There is no necessity for the ton. Gentleman to bring my affairs into this matter. In the ease which I quoted, there is no question of 30s., for the man was eventually offered 40s. His case was not that the money was not enough, but that two miles was too far.

The hon. and gallant Member says two miles, but the man says 11 miles, and I am splitting the difference and making it five. The hon. and gallant Gentleman's environment is different from that of a farm labourer; he would not walk two miles for he has a Rolls Royce and a chauffeur to take him there and bring him back at night. That is the difference between the hon. and gallant Member and the farm labourer. The hon. and gallant Member said that it was demoralising to get something for nothing. I agree, but the demoralisation is not confined to the working classes by any means. I remember a Noble Lord getting £2,500,000 for eight acres of land, the value of which was created by slums and gaols, and he has endowed three wives, all of whom are alive.

The hon. Member is straying very far from the substance of the Bill before us.

Whenever this question is raised, the position of the working classes who are on the dole is always referred to as getting something for nothing and demoralising. I assumed that I was justified in drawing a comparison, but if you say that it is out of order I accept your Ruling. The fact remains all the same, however. I am tired of this question of what is called "the dole" being used as capital for cheap jokes and sneers by hon. Gentlemen and right hon. Gentlemen opposite. I want to tell them quite frankly that it is a good job for them to-day that the unemployment dole, as they call it, is not meagrely paid out.

In one respect, the hon. Member for St. Helen's (Mr. Sexton) has wasted his eloquence. The party on this side of the House have never inveighed against the unemployed, or even against the Insurance Fund, but against the present Government for the way in which they have dealt with this problem. [ Interruption. ] Hon. Members will find that that is a charge which is largely shared in the country from Renfrew to White-chapel. It is very simple to try and pretend that criticism of certain evils which have grown up under the Unemployment Insurance Fund is criticism against the unemployed. Hon. Members who are trying to draw that red herring across the trail are trying to escape the just indictments which are being made against them. I can assure the hon. Member for East Birkenhead (Mr. White) that there is no question of anybody on this side being in doubt as to the gravity of the present situation. If anyone fails to realise it, it can only be the Government, judging from the speech of the Parliamentary Secretary this afternoon. I never heard a speech from the Treasury Bench less closely related to the immediate necessities of the situation.

What is the position? It is unnecessary to recapitulate figures, but according to a statement made by the right hon. Lady the other day, we are running up a deficit at the rate of £50,000,000 a year. That is a sufficiently serious figure, and it can very easily be increased, and is likely to be increased, if the present unemployment figure continues. That sum of money is a loss to the Treasury, apart from the direct Treasury burden for transitional payments. We are trying to avoid the immediate incidence of that loss of money by borrowing without intending to repay. It is not honest personal or national finance to borrow if you have no intention of paying back. We are rapidly building up this enormous burden, which we shall have to face sooner or later, but which the Government are avoiding facing as long as they can. We shall, moreover, be burdened with the increased expenditure, which it must and does entail, as an extra handicap whenever and if ever another world recovery of trade comes.

What is our indictment against this Government? It is that certain things have grown up in the present use of the Fund which they have allowed to grow up, and which they should take steps to mend. They are content with a hand-to-mouth policy—a policy of postponement. Hon. Members below the Gangway who are more subject to cajolery than we are have been flattered and cajoled, each time the subject has come up, by some concession. Last time another £10,000,000 was wanted we were told, "Oh, it will be all right, because we are going to have a three-party Committee, and you may have confidence in that." Distinguished Members of this party and of the party below the Gangway gave up a portion of the Recess to the work of this three-party Committee. Just as their work was drawing to a close, and we were expecting to have some tangible results, the Government came along and said, "Hush, hush" to the three-party Committee. They said, "We must cloak that up, for we are going to have a Royal Commission." What happened to the work of that Committee? Is it going to be made public? Perhaps we can be told that to-night.

Why have the Government once more taken refuge in a Royal Commission? They say, now that this further £10,000,000 is asked for, and now that hon. Members below the Gangway have swallowed the dope, "You must not make a fuss, because this time we are going to have something even grander than a three-party conference; we are going to have a Royal Commission." Why is this Royal Commission supposed to be necessary? Have not the Government all the data they need? They have had not only this three-party committee, but an interdepartmental committee which was summoned 18 months ago. What happened to that and to the information which they gathered? What has this Royal Commission to do? It has to make up the Government's mind for the Government, because the Government will not do it themselves. That is the true explanation of the Royal Commission. All the data that they can possibly need is available already. How long have we to wait until something comes from this Royal Commission? It has taken more than five weeks to set it up. This afternoon we learnt from a casual observation that it had come into existence. If it has taken five or six weeks to set it up, it will take at least five or six months to do its work. In the meantime, two more sums of £10,000,000 each will have to be granted by this House, and we shall be told, "You must not be disturbed by this; it is only another £20,000,000 which we are borrowing, and when we have finished with that, we shall have the report of the Royal Commission."

That is not a position which this House can regard as satisfactory. If decisions are to be made, they should be made by the Government of the day, who should bear the responsibility for them. Nothing is more derogatory to the reputation of Parliament than that, whenever any issue of any magnitude comes up, the Government should take refuge in a Royal Commission or some form of committee. If a decision is to be arrived at, it should be based on the material which the Government have at their disposal, and which the Government admit is amply satisfactory and sufficient. When I heard the Parliamentary Secretary this afternoon expressing his pleasure and satisfaction at what the Government had been able to do to meet the unemployment insurance position, I thought that he was easily satisfied with extremely small results. The only result, apparently, is this Commission. He was very pleased with a very small thing. I was reminded of Dr. Johnson's reply to a gentleman who was discoursing at great length about a flea. Dr. Johnson said:

I wondered when I listened to the hon. Gentleman this afternoon how long it would have taken him if he had had something to say, considering how long it took him to give us no reasons for the necessity of borrowing another £10,000,000. The position with which we are confronted could hardly be further from satisfactory. The other day the right hon. lady asked, as she always does, a series of questions. That is all the Government do on this issue. It would be more helpful if they would ask their questions and then give us the answer, and then from time to time we could have a little catechism; but when the Government ask their questions and never give an answer, the process is a little montonous. She asked, Can we find agreement in the political position? I do not know. She has had her three-party committee, and she must know. If she cannot get agreement, surely the right course for her to pursue is to make up her own mind as to the policy she proposes to follow instead of asking for another £10,000,000 and fobbing us off with a Royal Commission which has yet to get to work. On an issue of this kind, the Government ought to be able to shoulder their responsi- bilities and bring before the House their reasons for the course, or, indeed, the lack of course, which at the moment they are following. In this" matter t he Government have a special responsibility. Their expressions at the General Election are frequently in our mouths, and I dare say they are familiar to hon. Members. Here is one specific pledge in connection with unemployment insurance. In the manifesto, "Labour's appeal to the Nation," it was stated that they stood for:

The right hon. Lady, in her speech the other day, dealt with the case of married women and said: "How can we come to any decision about that without a Royal Commission? We want the married women to state their case." Of course she does, we all do, but is not the Minister accessible? Is it necessary to have a Royal Commission in order that the married women can state their case? Cannot they state it to the Minister? Must there he six months delay while the Royal Commission make an investigation? Why must the Executive always give over their authority to some outside body? It is only the Executive who are responsible to Parliament, not this abstract Royal Commission. It is the horses that matter, and not the harness; but it is always the harness that hon. Members are interested in, though it is the horses that drag the coach. The responsibility cannot be shifted from the Government. That is one of our chief complaints this afternoon.

To come to the abuses within the law. The right hon. Lady herself referred to them in the debate last week, and I do not propose to stress what she said, because her statement was sufficiently condemnatory as it stood. She said: Interruption .] Yes, the practice has very much increased of late, and will increase more and more until the Government are prepared to face up to the situation.

That practice has been in operation since very shortly after the Act began, and it is not true that it has developed at such a great rate.

As a matter of fact the practice is just as much in operation as it was during the five years when the hon. and gallant Member's party were in power.

That is not the point I am making. What I am saying is that this legal abuse has grown enormously of recent months. Does anyone in this House deny the statement that employers and employed are jointly making more use of this system than heretofore? [HON. MEMBERS: "Yes."] It may be that it is due to the present period of industrial depression, but that does not affect my argument. In the present state of affairs both sides are looking for other methods. My argument is that this practice is on the increase, and if it is not, I shall be glad to have the Minister's answer at the conclusion of the debate. From all the information I get, the practice is on the increase; because at the present time, with the present trade depression it is only natural that ways and means should be sought of getting out of their difficulties. It may be right or it may be wrong to give a subsidy to wages, but it cannot be right to take that subsidy out of a so-called insurance fund and at the cost of certain industries only, making the subsidy at their expense. The hon. Member for Leith (Mr. E. Brown) in the debate last week showed us clearly to what extent certain industries are being penalised by this system. He said:

"We have at the top of the table a group of eight industries containing 1,305,000 workmen; we have a group at the bottom containing 171,000 workers. Analysing the figures from 1925 to July, 1929, we find that the group of eight, employing 1,305,000, paid into the Fund 10 times as much as the single group at the bottom, but the group at the bottom, employing 171,000 has drawn out as much as the eight have paid in."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 1st December, 1930; col. 1912, Vol. 245.]

That shows that certain industries are making use of the fund for their own purposes, while others are not, and it is legal and it is within the law, but I say so much the worse. It does not require a Royal Commission to find that out. If the Government can deny that at the present time this system is being more largely followed than heretofore, we shall be glad to receive their information, but all the evidence I get is that this instrument is being legally used by certain industries to a much greater extent than by others, and, in consequence, we are not finding relief for certain unemployed but finding relief for industries, and that is a purpose to which the Unemployment Insurance Fund should never be put and for which it was never intended.

Do I under stand the hon. and gallant Member to mean that where short-time has to be worked he objects to the men who are working short-time being entitled to draw unemployment benefit as a principle?

What I object to is this: I say it is wrong for industries to benefit from money out of this fund, seeing that in truth they are taking the money from other contributors to the fund.

If the Government wish to subsidise an industry, let them do so, but we must not take the money from this fund, which is an insurance fund. That is not insurance, that is subsidising industry. I would repeat that we are being asked to vote this extra money although the Government refuse to take any action except to appoint a Royal Commission. Does anybody think the present working of the Act is satisfactory? One man in a street can draw money from the Unemployment Insurance Fund as a right. He has paid his contributions. Next door to him is a man who has not contributed to the fund, but also gets unemployment benefit; and next door to him is another man who has not contributed and does not get benefit, although he may be equally deserve. The difference in status between the agricultural labourer and the man on transitional benefit cannot possibly be justified, and yet this is the position which the present legislation creates. I did think that the present Government, whatever else they failed to do, would make some attempt to remedy the defects which even a cursory examination of the position would show to exist. If they had wanted to appoint a Royal Commission, why should they not have done so 13 months ago, when it was quite obvious that the position was going to become as serious as it has become, instead of asking us to vote first one £10,000,000 and then another, first on one suggestion and then on another, and covering the position under a cloud of words and subterfuges?

There is one question I wish to ask the right hon. Lady arising from the statement of the Parliamentary Secretary today. We have been told that as a result of the improved work of the exchanges men are being found seasonal work at a greater rate than before. The right hon. Lady herself instanced the case of sugar-beet workers, saying the exchanges had found work for our own men instead of its being left to be done by Irish migratory labour. I wish to know whether there is any influx of Irish labour which comes on to this fund, and, if so, how much.

No, generally. If there is any considerable influx from the Irish Free State, could not the Government approach the Government of the Free State in the matter? Nobody could object to our making representations against any considerable influx of labour when the numbers of our own unemployed are so high. In conclusion, I would like to present the view that the whole of our present method of unemployment insurance is quite unscientific. It would be out of order for me to go into that question, but whereas in most countries which practice it there is insurance by industries, with contributions accordingly, we are always told that that system is impossible here, though I do not know why it should be. We claim at the present time that the system here is not just to the contributors and not just to those who are out of work, because of the different and autocratic categories into which it puts the workpeople. It is unjust in that it subsidises some industries at the expense of others; and it is unjust to the State in piling up a debt which we are taking no steps to meet.

We on this side of the House are continually told that we must not break faith with the unemployed and we shall not do so when it comes to our turn to answer the questions which at the present time are being addressed to us; but at the moment it is not we who are in the dock. It is the Government who are in the dock for having broken faith with the unemployed and we are entitled to hear something much more satisfactory than the lame shifts and excuses which we have been given to-day. No one who contemplates the picture of the Government coming to ask for another £10,000,000 and who throws his mind back to some of the finings which were said to us in debates on unemployment insurance when we were in office can resist a somewhat cynical smile. I wonder if this is all for which hon. Members were returned here? I wonder if this is all for which the First Commissioner of Works used to get so extremely angry, with a sob in his voice and a catch in his throat, as he upbraided us for our failure? Is this to be the result—just one more £10,000,000? I do not think there will be any single chapter in the Government's handling of national affairs for which they will be more loudly condemned than that in the matter of unemployment insurance, on which they should have specialist knowledge of their awn, coupled with the information from previous committees, they have not faced up to the realities, but have taken refuge behind the cloak of a Royal Commission.

In almost every speech made during the course of the debate by Members of the Opposition the Government have been asked why they are not prepared to lay before the House all the knowledge in their possession regarding the existing insurance system. I listened on Monday last to the debate on this question, and there were four typical cases placed before the House in regard to this proposal. We had the case of the docker who was alleged to have earned money for a certain number of days, and afterwards availed himself under the Act of his right to get benefit for the days on which he was unemployed. We have also had put before us the case of the married woman who is supposed to have left industry, but we did not appear to get any very definite details with regard to that particular case. It seems to me that the House has been discussing this proposition in a very detached way, and I agree with the hon. Member for East Birkenhead (Mr. Graham White) that this debate savours of unreality. I have been anxious, during the course of these discussions, to have some statement as to the amount of money out of the £10,000,000 which is now being voted which might be saved if all the abuses which have been stated could be corrected. That appears to me to be the pith of the discussion. No one maintains that, with the present high figure of unemployment, the needs of the unemployed can be met without borrowing. The present Government are in the same position as the Opposition were in 1920–21, when they had to come to the House and ask for increased borrowing powers.

The problem is just the same to-day, although the figures are different. The real problem we have to consider to-day is not that of the border-line cases of abuse. The last speaker made reference to what the majority of the Members of the Opposition have in mind when he referred to the joint abuse between em- ployers and employés to take advantage of this fund by working short time, and paying for the remainder of the week out of the Unemployment Insurance Fund. That is the implication. May I remind the House that some years ago a universal appeal was made to employers to adopt short-time working? The argument then was that it would he better for the country, for the workmen, and for everybody concerned that short time should be worked rather than that a percentage of the workmen should be totally unemployed, while a section of the workers enjoyed the privilege of full-time employment. I ask those who speak from the Opposition benches to come right to that point. I am very anxious to find out whether there is any considerable section of the Members of this House who agree with those of us who have been responsible for negotiating wages and terms of employment when we take a very serious view of the proposition that the men who have been working on a system of short time for four or five years, and who are dismissed, should be deprived of their benefit for three days in the week when the employer cannot find full work for them. Unless you deal with that side of the problem, all references to abuses, in the sense of saving money, are useless. I think that there will be common consent to that point of view. If a firm employing 1,000 workmen choose to divide the work, giving each man three days' work per week, rather than throw 500 out of employment, there would be general agreement that that would be better for the men and the industry.

If I am in order, I would like to quote figures relating to unemployment. I have in mind the large engineering industry is which skilled men are paid 56s. a week, and labourers are paid 40s. a week. Take the case of a labourer who works three days a week and gets 20s. If he is a married man with two children, he will get 15s. unemployment benefit. I would like the case I am putting answered by some Member of the Opposition. The system of short-time work brings the man with three days a week on to the fund, with periods of 10 and 14 days for stocktaking, cleaning, Easter and Christmas time. Do hon. Members opposite seriously suggest, Royal Commission or no Royal Commission, that those men should be placed outside the fund? That is the short point, and that, to me, is the pith of the whole question. I make an appeal to the Government to stiffen their back on this question. I am not abashed at the Government coming to the House of Commons and asking for an additional £10,000,000 for this purpose. It is real economy, if you want to keep the labourer, for whom full-time employment cannot be found, in a state of efficiency. It is simply economy that subsistence should be provided for these men. What is provided by part-time insurance is the merest form of existence.

May I remind the House that some time ago the bulk of the sheltered industries were allowed to contract-out? Does anyone here express astonishment that the great competitive industries, from an insurance point of view, have become insolvent? I have taken part in a number of conferences where a desire was expressed to extend the systems of contracting-out by the great industries. The Members of the Conservative party were rather pushful in regard to the claim to contract-out of those who could afford to make profits under their own schemes of insurance. The sheltered industries having contracted-out, the key industries, which were primarily dependent on overseas trade, have become insolvent, and no form of tinkering with what are termed abuses will affect the position which has made it necessary for the Government to bring forward this Measure. This course would have been necessary whatever Government happened to be in power.

Let me take the alleged case of abuse of a man who is passing out of insurance due to the fact that work cannot be found for him. I have had cases investigated; I have seen the records of men employed with one firm for 20 years, really good servants, who have been dismissed. They have succeeded in getting other employment for two years in agriculture, and then they are not eligible for insurance benefit. Do I understand that it is the view of hon. Members opposite that those men should remain permanently out of insurance? If so, you are simply oppressing those men. I am certain that, no matter what the nature of the report of the Royal Commission may be, if there is any suggestion to victimise that type of men, there will be strenuous opposition from the Labour Benches. I am convinced, having had some experience for a number of years of administering this Act, that most of the abuses complained of could be corrected by purely administrative measures. Take the case of the woman who permanently leaves industry. What does that convey to hon. Members opposite? As a rule, when women get married, they look forward to a period of domestic bliss with family responsibilities, but in the majority of these case in Lancashire, it is necessary for a woman to go out to work in the factory in order to eke out an existence in the home. I hope that when hon. Members speak of abuses they will give to the House the details of all these alleged abuses from their own knowledge. Speaking as one who has some little knowledge of this matter as a trade union officer, I know of many cases where men and women are being deprived of benefit owing to the stringent application of regulations, and I hope that the Royal Commission will have something to say with regard to that side of the matter.

I see no immediate prospect of the volume of unemployment being reduced; I do not believe that anyone does. I believe that the Government have done what they can in the way of providing relief, but, after all, we are not running this system, and our first responsibility is to take round the ambulance wagon and take care of the victims who fall as the result of the working out of this system, Whether this Government will have to come six months hence and ask the House for another £10,000,000 or not, I hope they are not going to be disturbed either by speeches from the Opposition Benches or by articles which appear in the Press pointing to an anomaly here and there which in no way affects the general principle underlying the liability of this or any other Government in the face of 2,000,000 unemployed willing workers for whom no one can find employment.

The correct cure, in my opinion, is to say, "Work, if you can find it, but, where no work can be found, maintenance." If it be said that this is not insurance, I would reply that we have had no insurance in this country since 1920. It went out "when the present Opposition were in office. They not only ate up the reserve of £22,000,000, but they very soon had to come here for borrowing powers to enable them to carry on, and then we had 2,500,000 unemployed. Hon. Members may be cynical about it if they like, but I say emphatically that, regardless of what Government may be in power in this House, there will be a force which will resist, and, I believe, resist effectively, any effort to differentiate those who may qualify purely on an insurance basis, and to segregate those who, through no fault of their own, may be committed to a life of enforced idleness, and which will insist that they shall be entitled to receive reasonable maintenance by Government grant and assistance.

I support the Amendment, but I do not wish it to be thought that in doing so I in any way oppose the principle of unemployment insurance, because that is a principle in which I have always believed. Many years before the first Unemployment Insurance Act was placed on the Statute Book, I was one of those who on public platforms advocated the system of State insurance against unemployment. I believed then, as I believe now, that it is by far the best way of dealing with unemployment arising under normal circumstances—for example, with unemployment that is due to seasonal occupations or to changes in fashion causing industries to decline, or is due to the ordinary ebb and flow of industry. But, although the Bill that is now before us has the words "Unemployment Insurance" at the top, it is not really concerned at all with insurance as such, any more than the word "advances" in the body of the Bill really represents advances in the sense that they are ever coming back. They are payments which will never be returned to the fund. It is a misdescription to describe this as insurance, and it is a misdescription to describe these sums of money as advances.

After all, the first principle of insurance is that the benefits should come out of the contributions. In the case of unemployment insurance, when a man is in work, he pays a certain amount, his employer pays a certain amount, the State pays a certain amount, and these sums accumulate; and out of these accumulations benefits should be paid. If sums of money are to be added from time to time arbitrarily to that fund, it ceases to be an insurance fund at all. The last speaker seemed to think that that was very desirable, and he said that he and some of his friends would very much object to any distinction being made, if I understood him aright, between those who were entitled to benefit in respect of contributions which they had paid, and others who might want the money just as badly, being out of work, but who were not entitled to it in virtue of contributions paid. That seems to me to be a most unfortunate attitude to take. Why should we be afraid of facts? Why should we want to describe national poor relief as insurance, instead of what it is? It is extremely unfair to those people who are entitled to benefit in respect of their contributions, because they are told that they get a dole, when as a matter of fact they get nothing of the kind; they get benefit to which they are entitled. It is also extremely unfair to those classes of the community who do not work at insured trades, and who are just as much entitled to the dole part of it as those who do work at insured trades but who do not get it.

It is not only unfair to these two very large classes of workers, but it leads to most absurd situations. Let me put two cases to the House. This is what actually can and does happen to-day. A young, strong, unmarried man, with no ties, who has not been in regular employment for years, who possibly has never been in regular employment, who has no visible chance whatever of getting employment, is offered honourable employment by the State. He refuses; and he can go and claim the dole, and get it, on the ground that he cannot get work. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] Do hon. Members not consider employment in the armed forces of the Crown honourable employment? The phrase that I used was "honourable employment by the State." That state of things seems to me to be absurd.

Another anomaly that is bound to arise from this confusion of dole and benefit, is this: A man may be very anxious to get out of the kind of employment that he has hitherto followed. Take, for example, the coal mines. There are plenty of men in this country who have worked in the coal mines, but who have no visible chance of getting back into the coal mines, and who in all probability never will, because of the condition of the coal trade over the world due to the circumstances of the War and so forth. Suppose that one of these men goes to an omnibus company and says that he wants a job as a conductor, and the company say to him, "Very well, you can go on one of our omnibuses for a week or a fortnight with one of our men and learn your job, and, when you have learned your job, we will take you on and pay you the ordinary rate." That man to-day is deprived of his unemployment benefit while he is learning that occupation, and that, again, seems to me to be an utterly unreasonable position. I know that the Minister of Labour, when questioned on the subject in the House the other day, said that it would be a subsidy of wages. It seems to me that there would be much more to be said in defence of such a subsidy of wages than in defence of the present system of a subsidy of idleness. The confusion between dole and benefit cannot encourage men to seek work, while it may, and in some cases does, encourage idleness.

It has been urged that the present Government are not entirely responsible for this confusion. I agree. As the hon. Member who spoke last truly pointed out, the insurance system was not functioning strictly as an insurance system when the present Government took office. The point that I would make is that, instead of doing anything to remedy that, the present Administration have made it infinitely worse. They added benefits without regard to the fact that the funds could not pay the benefits that were paid at the moment; they weakened the Clause with regard to the necessity for genuinely seeking work; they took other steps that were bound to result in a further drain upon funds which they knew were already unequal to the strain that was placed upon them; and I think it is only fair to remind the Minister of Labour that, when she introduced the Unemployment Insurance Bill last year she said in her speech that it was a Bill to remedy the outstanding difficulties of the present system and to provide money which would enable the unemployment scheme to be carried on. It does not seem to me to have done either the one or the other. I do not wish to lay too much stress on the share of the right hon. Lady in this matter, as it is only fair to say that, when from time to time twinges of conscience make her stand up for better administration of the Act, she is usually attacked from behind and deserted by her own colleagues on the Front Bench.

We are invited again to-day to pour money into a bottomless pit. We are told that a Royal Commission will investigate these matters, and the suggestion obviously is that when that Commission reports we shall be able to put everything right. I say without the slightest hesitation, having regard to the history of the appointment of that Commission, and the fact that it was not appointed when the Government took office, but only when for some reason they did not like the way that the Three-Party Conference was going, that that is not the object of appointing the Commission at all, but that the object is simply to shirk a very difficult job, namely, the reorganising of our unemployment insurance. That is the real purpose of the Commission.

It may be that the right hon. Lady thinks that by the time the Commission reports she and her colleagues will be in Opposition. I should think that that is extremely likely. She will then hand on to someone else the job which she and her colleagues have not the courage to tackle to-day. I think that that is a pity, and it is particularly a pity as we have a minority Government, because, surely, there is an opportunity for placing the responsibility of a difficult and in some ways an unpopular Measure upon the shoulders of all three parties, if the effort were made to get agreement between them. It is a very good opportunity for tackling a problem of this kind, if we only had a Government with courage enough to take the lead.

There is a certain amount of confusion in the minds of some hon. Members opposite as to what speakers mean when they object to an unemployment insurance scheme being mixed up with doles and poor relief. The suggestion is always made, "Then your idea is that the local authorities should take over the charge of all these other people?" Of course, that does not necessarily arise out of the question at all. If the unemployment insurance scheme were administered so that the contributions provided the benefit—in other words, if it were ad- ministered as an insurance scheme—we should not be faced to-day with the necessity for an advance to the Unemployment Insurance Fund. If we were asked for money to-day, it would be correctly described as money needed for public assistance, Poor Law, call it what you will, but money that would be distributed to those in need because they are in need—in other words poor relief. It would not be pretended that it was a benefit for some insurance scheme to which they were entitled. That could be administered by the central Government. There would be no need for it to be administered by the local authorities. I think under the quite exceptional circumstances we are in to-day, with the abnormal extent of unemployment, some central system of poor relief of that kind would be necessary to come between the insurance scheme on the one hand and the normal Poor Law relief administered by local authorities on the other. I wish to make that point, because it is sometimes assumed that, if you make your insurance scheme sound, all the burden must necessarily come upon the local authorities. I hope, even at the eleventh hour, the Government may reconsider their decision and may again put out feelers to the leaders of the other two parties as to how far agreement is possible in a reorganised system of State insurance, the responsibility for which should be shared alike by all parties in the House.

The hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Gainsborough (Captain Crookshank) was very indignant with the Parliamentary Secretary for quoting Colonel Headlam, a Member of the late Government, as wishing to throw, off the fund men who are not actuarially insured and to put them on to public assistance committees. That was denied by the hon. and gallant Gentleman with a great show of indignation, but it has been repeated by the hon. Member who has just spoken and who has advocated the very thing that hon. Members opposite run away from. This is the kind of thing they talk about in their clubs and smoking-rooms and drawing-hooms, but they run away from it in public. I admire the hon. Member's courage and congratulate him on his speech. It was honest. I hope those who have heard the debate have noticed one or two other things. I am sorry the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Kelvingrove (Major Elliot) has had to leave the House. I think a Member who introduces an Amendment might at least wait for a reply, and there has been no reply to him yet.

The Amendment, for which presumably the Conservative party is going to vote solidly, would have the effect of closing down every Employment Exchange and the whole machinery of unemployment relief, because the Minister of Labour has told us that at the present rate of expenditure on 31st December the fund will be bankrupt. This Bill is to authorise her to borrow another £10,000,000. If the Amendment is carried, the Bill is rejected and the whole Unemployment Insurance Fund is wiped off the Statute Book. That is what the Conservative party is seeking to do and I hope they will be faced with it when the General Election comes and all the by-elections that will come in the future. I hope it will be noted by the people and by those humane employers who try to ease the burden of the workpeople. [ Interruption. ] It is so. Hon. Members do not know what they are voting for. We shall see, I suppose at eleven o'clock £80,000 or £100,000 worth of motor cars of hon. Members who have rolled up to vote for the Amendment to deprive the unemployed, through no fault of their own, of 17s. a week, because that is what it comes to.

Does the hon. and gallant Gentleman consider that the Labour party is not likely to be long enough in office to carry other legislation?

If the Bill is defeated, as is the desire of hon. Members opposite, there will not be time before 31st December to bring in other legislation. You cannot remodel the whole of the unemployment insurance system, which hon. Members themselves tolerated for four years, in a fortnight, and in less than a fortnight the House will be up.

The hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Kelvingrove made a very good-natured attack upon me, which I appreciated, and a very bitter attack on the Government, which I did not appreciate. He gave us a sort of natural history lesson. He said we were penguins sitting round a pool of boiling water and he called hon. Members opposite bears. There is another animal, the sloth, and I think the record of his own Government, I am sure against his own private desires and hopes, was extremely slothful. When my right hon. Friend took office, the fund was already bankrupt. The anomalies that have been referred to, which are admitted to exist, the legal abuses of the fund, as they have been called, the practice of employers to throw their men out of work for a few days in the week in order that they can draw insurance, existed under the Conservative Government. What did the hon. and gallant Gentleman do during that time? What are his suggestions now? I made a suggestion last week which I believe we shall yet have to come back to. The hon. and gallant Gentleman completely misunderstood it. He quoted the report of the Lord Mayor of Liverpool and referred to the disgraceful state of casual labour in the dock industry.

The hon. and gallant Gentleman has no proposal of his own and he does not understand mine. I will explain it to him again, because he tries to do things, in contradistinction to the rest of his colleagues who are prepared to sit still and do nothing. The proposal is that every industry should be made responsible for its own unemployed, and I believe there is a great deal in it. The hon. and gallant Gentleman says, "You cannot apply it to the docking industry because there is such a great reservoir of casual labour. But we want to decasualise the docking and stevedoring industry. If it was properly organised and decasualised, it could look after its own unemployed, because the whole of the railway and shipping companies and the whole of the export and import trade reap the advantage of this heinous and uncivilised system of men fighting for jobs every morning and, when they can only get jobs two days a week, having to go for the miserable few shillings they draw to keep themselves and their families from starvation.

I wish the hon. and gallant Gentleman would go down to the docks. I will take him to Hull, if he will come, and show him the hideous system we have of men fighting and struggling for the work. I wish the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Gainsborough and a few others who talk about men loafing and cadging on the dole would come and see the skilled workmen, boilermakers, coppersmiths, fitters and turners and that kind of men who are driven to the docks to get a livelihood. I wish they would see it at first hand. They would then understand that this is a system that has grown up by which they and their friends have benefited, and it is a great blot on our whole industrial system. If you could decasualise industry of that kind, and if the industries which are not so liable to casual labour could be made responsible for their unemployed, employers would not be so ready to stand men off. I believe that is one of the remedies we may have to adopt, and it deserves serious consideration.

Obviously, men who are permanently out of employment when whole industries have changed and pits are closed down for ever, must become a national charge. The hon. and gallant Gentleman wants those men taken off the fund and put on to public assistance committees. We say that is unfair on the districts that are the most hard hit by unemployment and that wealthy residential districts, which are lightly rated, should not escape in that way. The maintenance of those men until trade improves or work is found for them should be a national charge. That has always been the policy of our party.

The hon. Member for Colchester (Mr. O. Lewis), however, produced another policy, and I hope my friends on these benches have taken note of it. He wants men offered service in the Army, and, I presume, in the Air Force as well, and, if they refuse, they are to be struck off benefit. We have had the suggestion before and it has been denied, but now we have had it again blunt and plain. It is a new form of conscription. That is the Conservative policy for completing the ranks of the Army.

The hon. and gallant Gentleman did not quite understand me. The suggestion was that young unmarried men who were not entitled to benefit in respect of contributions paid in should be offered employment in the Army.

A young man who has been thrown off through no fault of his own, a miner, we will say, whose pit has been closed down and who has exhausted his right to benefit actuarially, is to be offered service in the Army, or starvation or the parish. That is the Conservative policy. I hope the country will take note of it. I hope that the Army will take note of it and that the hon. Member will hear some resentment from the soldiers of Colchester that such a suggestion should be made.

We have had one more gem in this debate from the other side, again, as so often, the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Kelvingrove. He is young politically compared with some of what are called the old gang of his party, but out of the mouths of political babes and sucklings comes wisdom. He says the fund must be restored to an insurance fund. That will mean striking off 750,000 persons who have exhausted their rights. They are to be put on to the public assistance committee.

I did not suggest that they should go on to the public assistance committees, but you must either raise the contribution or cut down the number of people who are drawing benefit. That is not policy. That is mathematics.

7.0 p.m.

Then what does he propose to do? One of two things—either raise the contributions or put the people off benefit. I am not misrepresenting hon. Members opposite. What they want is either to raise the contribution or have these people put off the Fund—three-quarters of a million or perhaps a million by March. They want to put these men and women of this particular category off the Fund. That is the Conservative policy, as so lucidly explained.

As the hon. Member will agree, I was prohibited by the Rules of Order from developing the statement which I was making, but I challenge the hon. Member and the Minister to deny that there is any other way of making any insolvent thing solvent save by increasing what is going in or by lessening what is going out. It is not a matter of policy but a matter of arithmetic.

Yes, but all that must be taken in conjunction with the fact that this is the hon. and gallant Member who moved the Amendment, the effect of which is that, by the 31st this month, the whole thing closes down by the refusal to the State of further borrowing powers. That is what the Conservative party is after.

I am most unwilling to interrupt the hon. Member repeatedly, but I know he does not mind. Certainly there need not be this Bill. The Minister can come forward boldly with a supplementary Estimate. There is no reason why she should not come forward with this Estimate so that the country may know what it is costing. If we throw out this Bill, there is nothing to prevent the money being found in this way.

No, another Bill is necessary. It will be impossible to deal with this by supplementary Estimate. You can bring in supplementary Estimates for the staff and and so on, but for borrowing powers you must have the legislation which the hon. Member is trying to destroy.

The hon. Member is really quite mistaken. The right hon. Lady can bring in a Bill increasing the Exchequer contributions to the Fund, which will be perfectly in order and which will need a supplementary Estimate to deal with it. There is no reason whatever why she could not bring that in or why it could not be debated in the usual way. It could deal with our basic objection which is that by this process of borrowing we are not facing the facts.

It might be done by prolonging the sitting. Therefore, we presume that the hon. Member did not know what he meant when he moved this Amendment and that this Amendment is a waste of time. The hon. and gallant Member is the kindest-hearted leader in the Conservative party, and we are grateful to him for the light he sheds. May I address one or two questions to the right hon. Lady and repeat the questions I put last week to her when the Parliamentary Secretary was not prepared with the answers. Will the Royal Commission look into the question of another great industry, which is not included in the fund? I refer to agriculture, because one of the reasons why we have to borrow—

I shall not pursue that matter at all then except that, from another point of view, I am, I think, in order. At present, we are being inundated with young men from agriculture who cannot get work on the farms and who are coming in and swelling the unemployed in the cities. The quickest way to check that would be to put agriculture on the same basis as other industries. Hon. Members opposite are never tired of quoting the isolated cases of the man who will not walk miles for a job of work, of the married woman who does not intend to go back to industry, and other case of that sort. We hear a great deal of cadging on the dole, of the demoralisation of receiving money for nothing. I am always reminded when I hear these speeches of a play by Tchekov—I think it is "The Cherry Tree"—in which an old ruined landowner complains that the people jeer at him in the village and call him a cadger and the owners console him by saying, "We are all cadgers on God." It is only by the accident of birth that some of the hon. Members opposite who are criticising the unemployed are not joining up in the queues. Some of them would be hard put to it to earn their living in the labour market.

When we look 'at the trials and the tribulations of the people during the last few years, when we think of the skilled workmen now experiencing total unemployment, perhaps for the first time, when we think of the results of these long years of enforced idleness, we must realise that here and there the weaker vessels will begin to go to pieces. It is the result of poverty, the system which we still hope we can modify. I am afraid we shall have more of these debates and arguments in this House on both sides. I do not know that I shall be able to take part in them. There will be another Bill to* increase the borrowing powers in a few weeks time. A great deal will depend on the work, the findings and the report of this Royal Commission.

May I put one more question to my right hon. Friend? Can she reassure us that the names of the Royal Commission, when they are announced to-morrow, will contain the names of men and women who have themselves experienced the working of the Employment Exchanges, who have themselves been in industry and have experienced unemployment? There are plenty well fitted for the purpose and just as suitable to be on the Royal Commission as judges and bankers and employers of labour. You cannot get the right attitude towards the whole problem unless you leaven the Royal Commission with men who have themselves gone through the experience which 2,000,000 unemployed are going through to-day. In view of the immensity of the problem and of the difficulties, to which my hon. Friend who introduced this Bill so ably referred, I hope it will be axiomatic that there shall be upon it people who have had recent experience of the working of the Unemployment Insurance Acts. It will only be then that we shall have a helpful and a just report.

When the hon. and gallant Member for Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) addresses the House, he adopts either a scolding attitude to the Front Bench on this side of the House or a somewhat patronising attitude towards his own Front Bench. After what he said about not taking part again in these debates, may I say that we should be sorry to hear that this was the last occasion on which we shall hear a speech from the hon. and gallant Member? We hope his absence from the House will not be long. He has been almost an institution in this House since the War. This debate is the thirtieth or fortieth that has taken place. It shows that all parties in the House have not been successful in tackling what is really the greatest problem that the country has to face. What makes me despair is that the title of this Bill is more sinister. The "Unemployment Insurance (No. 3) Act, 1930"; why not the "Unemployment Insurance (No. 15) Act"? It seems to me to be the negation of a really constructive policy. It seems that you are going to continue to drift and that, as you reach these periodic cycles when the fund has to be replenished, you are showing the country that you are incapable of that statesmanship which is really necessary.

I am well aware that the right hon. Lady and indeed the hon. Gentleman who sits beside her have shown a great example in starting training centres in different parts of the country. The work of the training centres, especially at Chiseldon, has done a great deal of good and has enabled men to fit themselves to get other occupations. I wish we could provide money in order still further to increase these training stations. There is one point to which I would like to draw the attention of the right hon. Lady. Unhappily, migration to the overseas Dominions has almost ceased and there are established in different parts of the country training centres—

This will be more suitable to the Estimates than to the Second Reading of this Bill.

I am sorry to have transgressed the Rules of Order. I shall try to point out to the right hon. Lady that it might not be necessary so often to replenish this fund if there were increased means of enabling people to get work that was suitable by training them for other occupations. There is also that problem of the great tragedy of unemployment in the country, the physical condition of so many of the young men. I wish something could be done to enable these men, who are anxious enough to play games, to be given an opportunity to maintain their physical efficiency. In some of these centres they come to the Employment Exchange to draw their money, and they have far too much time on their hands. They do not want so much idle time, and, if anything could be done to keep them fit by providing gymnastic appliances or something else, they would be more capable of taking work when it offers.

There is one other point. When our party was on the opposite side of the House and we sustained frequent attacks from hon. Gentlemen now on the Government side, I often wondered what those gentlemen were going to do. They have not done much more than we did, and Heaven knows I am not satisfied with what we did. No party is entitled to take credit for what was done, but, if there is any party which is not entitled to do so, it is the party opposite, which, with the full weight of the trade union movement behind it and in combination with the administrative knowledge of the Ministry of Labour, should have produced some new administration ideas with regard to the whole system of unemployment.

The hon. and gallant Member spoke just now of one of the greatest evils of unemployment to-day. I entirely agree with him. I think the casual dock labourer is one of the greatest blights on our labour system and is something that ought to be cured. It can only be cured, however, by curtailing the number of people who are in employment in the docks. That means that another avenue will be blocked which is at present open for casual labour. I would like, if possible, to hear from the right hon. Lady, when she speaks, whether there is any idea at all of some scheme that will assist large industries to try and adjust those sorts of difficulties. I know for certain that no industry will be capable of doing that until the trade unions themselves are willing to consider reducing the number of categories into which the employes are now divided.

Or the employers—I quite agree. We have to reduce the number of categories before we have any hope of getting down to the fundamentals of this question. Another thing that is always difficult to understand is the standard which the trade unions now put on the efficiency of a skilled worker. I mean by that if, for example, a skilled tradesman, unable to pursue his ordinary work, whose hands get less supple, or he gets out of the way of managing the most recent machines, for how long is he entitled to class himself as a first-class artisan in that trade? Very often a man is sent by an Employment Exchange to fill a job, and it may be that he has not done that work, through no fault of his own, for a considerable time. When he arrives he cannot satisfy his employer, and that gives the Employment Exchange a bad name. The labour you get for a particular job must be up-to-date and efficient, and surely there should be something said for the trade unions cooperating with the Ministry of Labour, and perhaps in some cases with the Board of Education so as to give people a chance of studying the latest machinery and so keeping their hand in at their own jobs, and being acquainted with the running of the most up-to-date types of machinery. An hon. Member referred to the great scandal—it is nothing less, and the Members who sit for Glasgow Divisions will know it—of the enormous number of Irishmen who have come to this country, and after doing work for a very short time have remained permanently here, so that Glasgow is almost becoming an Irish city rather than a Scottish city.

If the hon. Member remains there, no doubt the lion of Scotland will prove victorious. These men are obtaining work—[ Interruption .]

I know that this is a point frequently raised by the political supporters of my hon. Friend. The trouble has only arisen since they began to vote for us, though they were brought over a long time ago. Did these men come over for a short period of labour, or were they brought for the purpose of introducing cheap labour in the West of Scotland and breaking down wages?

Whether they were brought, or whether they came, the fact remains that numbers of them have remained. These funds are mainly subscribed by English, Scottish and Welsh people, workmen, taxpayers and employers, and I think it very essential that we should have some means of checking the number of persons who came over—[ Interruption .] Whether it is the fault of employers getting cheap labour I do not know, but it is militating against workers in England and Scotland. There is another matter which the House must consider. Owing to unemployment in some of the Dominions, vessels are arriving at our ports with numbers of men repatriated from the Dominions and overseas. Some of them have very little means; some have had extremely bad luck. I wonder whether the right hon. Lady has any information as to whether there is any restriction on the return to these shores of persons who have taken citizenship in the United States or have been settled for some time in the Dominions? If this country is to be unrestrictedly open to the return of so many people, it will still further complicate our position.

I would like to draw the Minister's attention also to the whole question of the position of the friendly society movement and the insurance side of this question. Hon. Gentlemen opposite seem to think it is monstrous for us on this side to call these grants insurance in the old sense. Surely it was the working classes of this country who made the friendly society movement. They were the first people who set up these societies of mutual benefit, and they have for that earned credit from the whole world. It seems to me amazing that their representatives in the House of Commons today do not seem able to recognise or are willing to recognise that asking for money for insurance for a scheme that is not actuarially an insurance scheme is sailing under false colours. Not one of my hon. Friends has suggested that we want to throw people off and do nothing for them. All that we suggest is that if you have an unemployment insurance scheme, it should be kept as an insurance scheme, and that other forms of assistance should be kept separate from it. If you talk to any old-fashioned trade unionist who is keen about the benefit side of his union, he will tell you that all this slackness about insurance is doing no good to the benefit side of the union.

Far too often Members of this House look upon trade unions merely as organisations for negotiating wages, and forget that one part they play in the national life is the benefit side, which they have administered very well as a whole. I hope that there will be no further misconception as to what we claim on this side. It is not a question that we want to fling people out. We wish to draw that distinction between people who are really insured persons and those who are not. I think that far too frequently people say that a man is on the dole when he is nothing of the sort, but is getting a benefit to which he is justly entitled. Why hon. Gentlemen opposite who realise that do not wish to draw a greater distinction between this fund, so as to prevent it being used as a term of abuse when it is not so, beats me. You will never understand or get to the root of this matter until, once and for all, you cut off the insurance scheme from other things, but always keep the bridge open so that a man can step back again into insurance benefit.

I hope that the right hon. Lady has been able to get certain extra figures in regard to transitional benefit, about which I addressed a question to her. From her answer, it appears that £380,000 a week is now being paid for transitional benefit as against £160,000 prior to the passing of the Insurance Act this year. I hope the Ministry of Labour has been able to analyse these figures arid find out what is the position of transitional benefit, and whether there is any possibility at all of that being fitted into the scheme in a more satisfactory manner. Some of us feel that the Act of this year has not been to the benefit of the scheme as a whole. I agree with hon. Gentlemen on this side who feel it is really a matter about which all of us must be distressed, because no party, and certainly no Government, has made a very good job of this question. It does seem to me a thousand pities, when one thinks of the distress up and down the country at this moment and realises the conditions under which a section of the people will be celebrating what they are pleased to call a happy period. I cannot help thinking that if parties were more honest about facts, and did not play with false sentiment and party discords, the country would appreciate the work we are doing more than it does to-day.

The Bill we are discussing is to raise the borrowing power from £60,000,000 to £70,000,000, and the Tory Amendment is that until the Government declare their policy in relation to the abuses admittedly in existence, this money should not be voted. On that plea of admitted abuses we have listened for two days to speeches that have been veiled attacks from both the Liberal and Tory benches against a section of the working class of this country who are being castigated for drawing money they are not entitled to draw. In my duties as a parish councillor, town councillor and Member of Parliament, I have from time to time come into close relationship with large bodies of people who are drawing unemployment benefit, and I have also come across a large number who are denied that benefit. I think the abuses that really exist are abuses against the workers and not of the workers. The Tory party would be well advised, if they want to add to the numerical strength of this party, to go into their own divisions and make the type of speech they have been making in this House to-day. It is very ill for any people who are being returned here, largely by working class votes, to make the veiled attacks they have been making on the working classes.

It is admitted that in the beginning this was intended to be an insurance scheme that would be entirely solvent, and meet the entire needs of the country. If we have drifted away from that, it is not the fault of the working class; it is the fault of the order of society known as capitalism. If we are unable to make things meet in this insurance scheme, it is because of the inability of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite and their friends to carry on industry and make a success of the system they are continually boasting about. If there are abuses—and I deny that there are any—they are the result of the present order, that has created the necessity so that men may get a living

There is admittedly no prospect of the repayment of the money that is proposed to be borrowed. Hon. Members are, of course, entitled to criticise the fund because of the continual borrowing which is resorted to in order to postpone the evil day, when there will have to be a complete change in the provision of the money. What are the suggestions made in order to meet the deficit? There are a number of alternative methods instead of borrowing. In the first place, there could be increased contributions by employers and workers. If the Tory party desire to suggest that course, let them do so honestly and openly. Let them say that that is one way to create a solvent fund. Another method would be by decreasing the benefits. I would like to see any Member of the Liberal party or the Tory party who represents a working-class constituency who would dare to suggest a decrease in the benefits which those members of the working class who are unemployed are getting. We have fixed the benefit at the lowest possible minimum that any human being can exist on. Therefore, there can be no relief of the fund by way of the reduction of benefit.

A third suggestion is that benefits might be paid for a short period and that the workers should then be transferred to a national fund. If there is a weakness in that suggestion, why should not hon. Members ask the Government what they intend to do in order to find the money by other methods? If they want to suggest that the worker should receive benefit from the fund for only three months or six months and should then be put on to a natonal relief fund, let them suggest it honestly and openly. There is a fourth suggestion, and that is that the benefits should be paid for a short period and that the unemployed worker should then be put on to the local rates. Is there anyone who would dare to suggest openly that a working man who draws unemployment benefit out of the Insurance Fund for three months or six months should then be transferred to the Public Assistance Committees or to Poor Law relief? There are very few, if any, hon. Members who would dare to make that suggestion to their constituents or to the people of this country.

There is a fifth method that might be suggested, and that is to bring in a scheme for all the people who work either for wages or salary. That would mean that every person, no matter what their income might be, whether they were directors or street sweepers, would be brought into a great comprehensive scheme of insurance. The strong would bear the burden of the weak. That suggestion might be made and discussed in this House and there might be agreement on those lines. A sixth method would be to end the contributory scheme and to set up a complete national fund for carrying the whole unemployment of the country. That would be the scheme which I should favour, because I believe that the present insurance scheme has completely broken down, and I cannot see any relief to be derived from any of the other suggestions. It is a national and not a local fund that is required. The localities are bearing as much as they possibly can. They are overburdened and cannot bear any more financial undertakings. Hence the creation of a national fund, subsidised if you like from the Income Tax payers of this country, would be a solution of the difficulty.

In relation to the unemployed, I feel seriously perturbed. The Minister of Labour said the other day that in the building trade, with which I am associated, there were 143,000 men, who have been trained in the building of houses, who were signing on at the Employment Exchanges, and that these 143,000 individuals, taking the normal amount of pay at 32s., coming from the £10,000,000, means an expenditure of £228,000 per week in order to keep these human beings in idleness. Knowing the men in the trade and knowing that they have spent years in skilled craftsmanship I know that they are desirous of having an opportunity to do work in the carrying out of housing schemes. Instead of work being available for them in that direction, nearly £250,000 has to be paid out each week from the fund to keep those men whilst they are unemployed. If we were to create a great national fund for the provision of housing for the people, we should be able to relieve the Insurance Fund of the charge of nearly £250,000 per week which it has to pay now to the unemployed men in the building trade. By that method one could take a large army of workers from the fund. In regard to the building trade workers who are on the fund it cannot be said that they are the victims of foreign competition. There is necessity for houses, there is an urgent need for houses, and work could be found for them if the Government were fully alive to the necessities of the situation.

Some hon. Members, including the right hon. and learned Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) have expressed strong views on this question. The right hon. and learned Member for Spen Valley suggested last week, in lawyerlike fashion, although he was certainly guarded in his statement, that there was growing up in the community a class of people who took a different view of the drawing of money from public funds than people had previously taken. He was suggesting that we were developing a cute type of being, a class of people who are determined to get something for nothing out of society. It ill be- comes the right hon. and learned Member to make suggestions of that character, because he and the profession to which he belongs have lived all their lives by developing that cute instinct and making the working class wise as to cute tricks in society, and how they can prey on society. I do not wish to hear suggestions of that character in this House. Every criminal instinct that can be pointed to in our class has been evolved and developed by the environment of the times in which we are living. Because they are denied the right to benefit, to food, clothing and shelter, and they are told that necessity knows no law, we find that certain individuals may have developed a little cunning in order to get from society what society denies to them. It would be far better to provide work for the working classes. If you cannot provide work, then you must maintain them. If they do not get something to eat, they will eat you. It is far better that you should supply them with ordinary food than that you should compel them to adopt the cannibal attitude, because ultimately they would adopt that attitude if they were driven to it.

It was suggested by one hon. Member that there was too strong an invasion into Scotland and parts of England from Ireland. I have the utmost personal objection to talk of that character. Had such a suggestion been put into operation a long time ago I probably would not have been in this House. There are many able and capable men in this House who have come from Ireland and who have been bulwarks and of great assistance to this country at all times. The increase in unemployment is a natural development of the order we are going through, and the call for£10,000,000 and probably a further£10,000,000 and a further£20,000,000 will require to be met as time goes on. My predecessor in the representation of Shettleston stated last March that the unemployed army at the beginning of the winter would be 2,000,000. Many hon. Members laughed at that time, but four months later we had crossed the 2,000,000 mark. Some very keen economists and business men are prophesying that within six or nine months we shall cross the 3,000,000 mark and that in 15 months we shall cross the 4,000,000 mark. That is within the realms of possibility. The whole development of society is tending in that direction.

We are not alone in asking for millions of money to meet the needs of the times. We see the same thing in other countries. Rationalisation makes things worse. It throws more and more people on to the Fund. If we are to create a great unemployed army to the tune of 4,000,000 or 5,000,000 within one or two years, we have no other way to meet the needs of these human beings than by coming to this so-called democratic institution and asking it to provide for the material wants of these unfortunate people. Instead of a reduction in benefit so far as the working classes are concerned, the tendency should be upwards. If the working classes had been as keen in their brains as hon. Members opposite they would have displayed their antagonism to a greater extent, they would have shown their teeth more and this House would have been compelled to meet the needs of themselves and their families and to give decent human life to every single person unemployed. When men who have been earning£3 or£4 a week become unemployed and they are reduced to perhaps 30s. or 26s. a week for themselves and their families, they feel the position very much.

I wonder what would happen to hon. Members opposite if they had to live in the reduced circumstances to which the working class are reduced. Often it is a question of a few shillings. They would have revolted and would have torn out of their places those who would not make way for a decent order of things. Unfortunately, individuals of the class of hon. Members opposite pour contempt on the class that keeps them. I say to hon. Members opposite, the working classes you pretend to despise as dole drawers and cute men are the individuals who create the wealth that you and your families use and consume. Without that class you would be poor individuals indeed. I am not prepared, in spite of any decision that may be taken, to sit quietly or idly by and to allow the class to which I belong, the very class that keeps society in all its wants, to be ridiculed and to have contempt poured upon them. The only period when you have any time for the working class is when you are asking for votes from them.

They are fine fellows then, but when you have used them and sucked them dry for industrial purposes and elections you come to this House and ridicule them.

We are in a sham atmosphere, in an atmosphere of sham discussion, with its oratory that would have delighted the ears of my grandfather, but which in modern times cannot make any sensible suggestion towards the creation of a condition of things for the working classes that makes life more tolerable. The House is bound to find the£10,000,000. I am sorry that it is not a great deal more. As to the alleged abuses that are taking place under the present insurance system, I maintain that they are abuses against the working class and not by the working class. The working class are the victims of a brutal and horrible system of society which is crushing them down into the gutter and the grave, but I hope that one day they will revolt and rebel against the class that continually keeps them down.

Anyone who has listened to the speech of the hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. McGovern) will be surprised if any hon. Members on this side of the House really view the working classes in the way he suggested. As a matter of fact, it is sloppy sentimental rubbish to which we have just been listening that has placed this country in its present position.[ Interruption. ]

The last speaker had a Very quiet hearing and I hope hon. Members will give the same quiet hearing to other hon. Members.

On a point of Order. The last speaker did not indulge in personal reflections upon hon. Members opposite.

We are discussing a Vote of £10,000,000 to meet a deficiency on the Unemployment Fund. That deficiency is largely attributable to the fact that the present Government have added so largely to the outgoings. They increased the expenditure by £13,000,000 by increasing the rates of benefit, the abolition of the genuinely-seeking-work clause, and the benefit to married women. I am not afraid to express my views frankly as to the Unemployment Insurance Fund. I am in entire accord with the proposal that we should have a proper contributory Unemployment Insurance Fund, but when it comes to a question of finding money for relief caused by genuine unemployment I say that it should be treated under a different head and recognised as such. I believe most hon. Members will agree with that. One of the great causes of the present unemployment situation is that the Government do not recognise that by adding to the burdens of industry they are automatically increasing unemployment themselves. I should like to hear practical suggestions for reducing the number who have to be assisted by this fund rather than suggestions like that of the hon. Member for Shettleston for adding to the outgoings of the fund, and suggestions that the Government should come to the House and ask for a larger sum of money.

The position is one of great gravity. The mere £10,000,000, which the House will vote, is not the whole trouble. The trouble is that week by week and month by month we are unfortunately increasing unemployment to an enormous extent, and one of the methods by which this has been done during the last 18 months is that the Government have been throwing great burdens upon industry which has dried up the resources of industry, they are not able to develop. We have heard of the number of unemployed in the building industry. There is no incentive to-day to develop because of the charges and burdens which are being continuously put upon industry, and until His Majesty's Government recognise this side of the question I am afraid unemployment, instead of decreasing, will increase.

The real question before the House is how can we arrange industry in this country so that a lesser number of persons come on to this fund. Most of the speeches so far have been to the effect that more money should be given to the individual. It was very in- opportune for the Government to increase the liability of this sum by £13,000,000 per annum, and it will never be solvent until they recognise that in order to get more persons into employment they will have to study to a larger extent the needs of industry. The working people of this country depend for their livelihood upon industry, and the more damage you do to industry the less number of people you can employ. There is to-day a great abuse both by employers and employés of this fund—legal abuse. When we criticise this hon. Members opposite get very angry. When the Minister of Labour came first to the House and asked for extra money for this fund she said, "We will have a joint Committee to consider the position." On the second occasion she suggested, in order to justify a further £10,000,000, that we should have a Royal Commission. That is burking the whole question. If hon. Members are honest to themselves and to the fund they will face the difficulties. Unless a serious effort is made very quickly by the Government we shall find that in 14 or 15 months time we shall again be asked for a large sum of money because industry will go from bad to worse. It is to be regretted that the Government do not recognise this. I hope the Government will realise the difficulties of industry and do something to assist them, so that in turn industry may be able to reduce unemployment.

The hon. and gallant Member for Harrow (Major Salmon) wanted to hear some practical suggestions for dealing with this matter, but I listened very attentively to his speech and I listened in vain for any practical suggestions from him. If the hon. and gallant Member had been present during the whole of the debate he would have heard some suggestions from his own side of the House, whether he would endorse them or not I do not know. It will be interesting to know whether the hon. Member for Rushcliffe (Sir H. Betterton) will endorse them or not. Hon. Members opposite have put forward the suggestion that a large section of the unemployed should be removed from the Unemployment Fund and be made a charge on public assistance committees, and have criticised the payment of unemployment insurance benefit to men on short time. How long has that been the policy of the Conservative party? Are we to take it that if they come back to office the unemployed worker on short time will not be entitled to draw unemployment benefit for the days when he is unemployed. I hope the hon. Member for Rushcliffe will apply himself to that point. No doubt we should not require £10,000,000 if schemes of that kind were put into operation. Will he also embrace the policy suggested by an hon. Member that if honourable employment is offered to an unemployed man—I think he said with the State—and is refused, benefit ought to be refused; that if employment in the Army is offered to men who have exhausted their benefit that they ought not to be entitled to receive any further benefit. Is that the new policy of unemployment insurance for the Conservative party?

We have heard a great deal about abuses this afternoon. I represent a constituency which in the main is a mining constituency, with a sprinkling of iron and hosiery workers. No abuses have come to my knowledge from any official or unofficial sources. The only abuses that have come to my knowledge are abuses of another kind: of refusing people benefit who, in my view, are entitled to benefit, and I propose to give the Minister of Labour a few facts in regard to this matter. We have also heard a great deal about the demoralising effect on those people who are receiving unemployment benefit. My experience shows that there has not been much demoralisation in drawing the 17s. per week; the demoralisation in my constituency has been through the absence of the 17s., and I dare say that applies to the Rushcliffe Division as well. Demoralisation is not only a question of receiving something for nothing; my difficulty is to cope with the cases where demoralisation arises through benefit being denied.

8.0 p.m.

I want to put one or two points to the Minister of Labour. With regard to the question of abuses being referred to the Royal Commission. We know that the legal disability of not-genuinely-seeking-work has been abolished and it no longer appears in the Statute; but I think something very near to it is still in existence. For the benefit of the right hon. Lady the Minister of Labour I have a copy of a statement which was issued by an Employment Exchange, in reference to an applicant for unemployment insurance:

Men have been disqualified from benefit when they have been working under conditions and receiving wages which have been deplorable. In one case, where a man was working 45 hours a week for the princely sum of 10s. as a labourer, because he refused to continue that employment—and there is no question of the facts, which I could present to the hon. Lady if it were necessary—benefit was refused. That, in my view, was an abuse of the language of the Statute. Therefore, we come to the point of whether the court of referees is the proper body to interpret the Statute.

Then there is the case of married-women. We have heard a good deal about married women refusing to take employment and of married women being on the Unemployment Fund. I would draw the attention of the right hon. Lady the Minister of Labour to the fact that there are married women who, because they refuse to accept employment at a wage which no one in this House, even on the other side, would argue as being adequate have been refused benefit. I have a concrete case where a woman refused to continue employment in which she had been employed for five weeks, and only earned 20s., or an average of 4s. a week, and, because she refused to continue, she was denied benefit. The only abuse we hear from the other side of the House is where people are alleged to receive money and are not entitled to it, but I have never heard anything said about such cases as I have given, and I would like the right hon. Lady to give her personal attention to them.

Then there are some cases, which I believe are before the Minister, where miners who could not get to their working-place because of a fall in the roof or the working sides of the pit, have been sent home and, because they had passed a geographical line have not been entitled to draw the minimum wage under the Minimum Wage Act nor have they been entitled to draw unemployment insurance. This is causing a great deal of controversy in the coalfields. The difficulty arises because it is alleged that, when men pass this geographical line, they are entitled to receive the minimum wage; but that is not true because the regulation under the Coal Mines Act is framed in the negative, that they will not be entitled to draw a minimum wage if the men do not pass this line or place, which does not necessarily infer that they will be entitled to draw a minimum wage when they do pass. Those cases are cropping up in the coalfields of Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire, and South Yorkshire, where I have made inquiries. As we conduct the debate under the shadow of a Royal Commission, now is the time to collect and collate all those points so that they may be thrashed out in the proper place. Many of them, I believe, have no need to go to the Royal Commission; the facts are there, and we ought to be able to deal with them.

I have been taking the trouble to look up debates in the past on the increase of the borrowing power of the Unemployment Insurance Fund, and I have looked up several of the speeches which I delivered on those occasions when my own party was in office. I claim that what I am about to say to-night is exactly what I said when my own party was in office. I should like to compliment the hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. McGovern) on a part of his speech. I should not like to compliment him on all of it, because some of it I utterly disagreed with. At any rate, he did put forward some concrete suggestions as to how to relieve this fund from further borrowing. I do not subscribe to all his suggestions. He said that the uncovenanted benefit should be a national charge. I said years ago, and I repeat it, that it is a farce to add million after million to this fund and call it borrowing. We would do far better to face the issue and say that the State will have to meet the charge.

It was said in the early days that trade would revive and things get better and that we should be able to reduce this debt, but, instead, it is growing and growing rapidly, and we are assured by the right hon. Lady the Minister of Labour that there is likely to be another call on the borrowing powers in the next two months. I agree that it is time to face the issue and realise where we stand, and that is why I am supporting the Amendment put forward by the Front Opposition Bench of my party. I believe the Government are not facing the issue in the way that we should expect them to do. I have been also reading some of the speeches made by right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite, when they were in opposition, on this very subject, and I should like to see them carry out their own suggestions. I remember the right hon. Gentleman the First Commissioner of Works (Mr. Lansbury) putting forward suggestions about this being made a national charge, but, if you make it a national charge and a national fund, it becomes nothing more nor less than glorified relief.

But if you put it into operation you have to take the consequences. The right hon. Gentleman the First Commissioner of Works said, when challenged: "I would put every man who would not work in a position that he would not eat." But how would you test those people as to whether they were prepared to work?

I expected that answer, and what is that but test work. Unless you offer a man a job in his own trade, test work is a detestable form of dealing with people. Do not think you are to solve your problems by making it a national charge. A few points were raised by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Labour. I have a great admiration for the work he is doing and also for the work of the right hon. Lady the Minister of Labour. I know that whoever is in her position is open to attack from all sides. It is a job which has been described as a whipping post, and the Minister has been described as the "whipping boy." But I am a little disappointed at the defence which the Parliamentary Secretary put up for the Government's proposals. The Parliamentary Secretary suggested that whether the 1930 Act had been passed or not, there would still have been an increase in the indebtedness of the fund. No doubt there would have been a certain increase in the indebtedness of the fund whether that Act had been passed or not, but I suggest that if it had not been for the 1930 Act, the hon. Gentleman would not now have to ask for quite such a large a sum of money as he is asking for in this Bill.

I believe that the right hon. Lady the Minister last week fixed a sum of about £13,000,000 as being the result of certain changes which had been made by the Act of 1930. There is the increase in the benefits—of which I am not complaining—and then certain of the conditions have been altered. Those alterations must have meant an increase in the amount required. But I do not think that there is any reason why the Government should shirk the issue. When they brought in are 1930 Measure it was definitely stated that they were out to give larger benefits to the unemployed and there is no need for them to deny it because they have now to come to the House and ask for more money. It is as plain as a pikestaff. Then we come to the question of the casual and part-time arrangements regarding which the hon. Gentleman said there had been no increase at all as a result of the rule of the present Government. The legal position of those drawing part-time benefit was well known before the Government came into office and I am not blaming this Government for the fact that that item has grown to a large extent. It has grown because of the publicity given to it by certain articles in certain newspapers, and when people find that, legally, they can obtain benefit, who is to blame them for doing so?

I join issue with the hon. Gentleman, however, on the point about the relaxation of certain regulations. That relaxation has caused a great increase in the claims for benefit, and, in claims from people who, as the hon. Gentleman himself would probably agree after considering all the circumstances, are not entitled to draw money from the fund at all. Under the old condition about "genuinely seeking work," no doubt, many good honest people were wiped off the unemployment roll as far as benefit was concerned, but we must also realise that many glib-tongued persons, who could tell the tale to the local committee, got on to the fund, even when that condition was in operation, although they were not entitled.

The one point which I made was that the "not-genuinely-seeking-work" condition had nothing to do with the part-time operations and I should like the hon. Member to show what connection there is between them.

I never suggested for a moment that there was such a connection. The hon. Gentleman is perfectly right in saying that there is none. I have had considerable experience in dealing with the part-time worker and in dealing with the "genuinely-seeking-work" condition and I do not suggest for one moment that there is any connection. But in dealing with this question about "genuinely seeking work," there has been a good deal of misunderstanding. It has been suggested that this condition was a Conservative idea. Someone mentioned the Act of 1920, but as a matter of* fact this condition was introduced in the 1924 Act by the right hon. Gentleman who is now Minister of War and who was then Minister of Labour. That Act provides: of that condition. We sent to the Ministry of Labour and got a reply for which, I take it, the Minister then in charge was responsible. I have challenged the right hon. Gentleman since in this House on the point. The answer we received was that "genuinely seeking work" was "continuously seeking work." That was how the difficulty arose. The term "continuously" meant that the workman had to go from door to door with a paper getting it signed by a foreman or other responsible person at each place to show that he had applied for employment there. It became a farce and I myself advocated that something other than this condition—with this definition, of "continuously"—should be substituted.

When the 1930 Measure was introduced, I thought that the Government were going to give us a Clause which would be suitable, but hon. Members know what happened. There was a sort of revolt and the right hon. Gentleman the Attorney-General had to eat his own words and provide another Clause to satisfy certain people in this House. I submit that that very fact, in itself, has caused a considerable run on the Unemployment Insurance Fund. I also suggest that it is not necessary to have a Royal Commission to deal, at any rate, with this matter. There are certain Departmental matters which could be dealt with at once and the settlement of which would help considerably. It would mean giving fair play and justice to the genuine unemployed man who ought to have a right and proper amount of pay allowed to him.

I should like to hear the hon. Member make a few remarks upon this matter and then perhaps we should know what he means. If he is referring to trade boards or something of that sort, I, perhaps, understand what he means, but in that case a man does get what he earns because it is fixed by the board. But when we are dealing with a question like that which is now before us, I suggest that there are cer- tain Departmental matters which ought to have immediate consideration. There is the question of the wiping-out of what is known inside the Department as the N.E.P.I. regulation. Courts of referees had the opportunity of dealing with a case on the ground that it was "not expedient in the public interest" to grant benefit. They were dealing with seasonal workers who worked just during a season and then wished to go on to the Unemployment Fund permanently, or at any rate until the next season came round, to the detriment of others who were genuine applicants.

I suggest that it was never intended that the fund should be used for such a purpose and that the Parliamentary Secretary could make the Employment Exchanges more useful and effective if he realised that they were not instituted merely for the paying out of benefits, but to find employment for those in need of it. Hon. Members may say that that is what they are trying to do now and that if they are not doing it to a sufficient extent, that is the fault of certain employers who will not send to the Exchanges when they want men. But there is a reason for a certain amount of the distrust of the Employment Exchanges by employers and it is not the fault of the officials.

Under the present system the onus of proving that a man is not likely to find employment in an insurable occupation, is thrown on the official. In order to prove that, he has to send a man to a place from which an application has been received. A certain employer of labour may have applied for a man and the official at the Employment Exchange has to send a man he is doubtful about in order to prove that the man in question is a man who is likely to be employed in an insurable occupation. What happens? Very often a very unsuitable man is sent. This is not fair to the man himself nor is it fair to the employer of labour. Employers of labour get tired of this sort of thing and say, "What is the good of sending to the Employment Exchange for men. They never send anybody who is worth while; we can do much better ourselves." It would be far better if a definite regulation were put into operation. This Clause, which has been complained of by hon. Members on that side of the House as well as by hon. Members on this side of the House, will have to be altered drastically or otherwise there would be no satisfaction.

The real cure for this problem is for something to be done to revive trade and industry in this country. It is all very well to come here for borrowing powers for another £10,000,000 and then have to come again later. This sort of thing would be prevented if we could do something to revive trade and industry in this country. I know that this may seem to be a very commonplace thing to say. We are always talking about it, and saying that it is necessary and so on. There is a responsibility upon the Government in this matter. It is a responsibility of which the Government will have to take their share. It is all very well to institute relief work and to put men upon those works who are used to a skilled occupation, but it will not do any good in the long run. Those who have been appointed by the Government especially to deal with this question to try and find some form of employment have realised the position and have given up the idea of trying to solve the problem. Until confidence is restored in industry and until speeches like the latter part of that delivered by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Shettleston cease up and down the country we shall never have any real chance of a revival of industry and trade. It is about time we stopped this silly talk about class hatred and class warfare. Let us realise that capital cannot do without labour, that labour cannot do without capital, and that neither is any use without brains or management.

Let us get down to the position of affairs, drop this foolish talk, and have a Council of State consisting of the three parties on sound, square lines, not on the condition of saying, "You can come in and consult with us on unemployment questions provided you do not mention this or that." I am satisfied that if we had a Council of State dealing with this question something of real value to the unemployed men would be accomplished. We should not have to come here and ask for £10,000,000 now and another £10,000,000 later. I am going to subscribe to a point of view which has already been put forward. I know these men and I can say definitely that 95 per cent, of them would be glad of work to-morrow. It is up to us to see that they receive an offer of work and a job which is suitable and one which they can do. So long as you make it possible for a man to do three days' casual work and then to draw three days' unemployment pay, producing more money than is earned by the skilled artisan, we ought to do something for the skilled artisan in order to increase his wages and his chances of becoming a little better off. We can only do these things by dropping this foolish talk about class hatred, and about your motor car and my motor oar, and all that sort of nonsense. There is no monopoly in motor cars on either side of the House. If the hon. Gentleman the Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) had been here I would have told him that there is no monopoly of brains and no lack of sympathy for the working men.

I know certain people in the country who might put the same interjection to the hon. Member. I happen to have been in his district. We ought not to give our minds so much to quarrelling about having to borrow the money, although I agree with the hon. Member for Shettleston that it would be far better to come to the House honestly and to say: "You must vote the money, and done with it." We must not let that occupy all our attention. Let us get down to the real problem and try and bring the country back to a state of prosperity. This can be done if all parties of the State will only get together—not call each other names—in a businesslike way and give each other a chance.

I listened with great interest to the observations which were made by the hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Womersley) and also to the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Gainsborough (Captain Crook-shank). I should have liked to have heard something constructive from either of them as to exactly what the Government were to do in order to set the Lancashire cotton operatives at work, or the miners, or those engaged in the export branches of engineering and other industries at work. It is not so much a matter of a lack of confidence. It is simply that large parts of the world are in a state of political unsettlement, and secondly, we have a situation which is well known to exist in the food producing and raw material producing countries, where owing to the catastrophic fall in prices due to heavy surpluses the purchasing power of those particular parts of the world has been destroyed. What is the use of constantly railing at the Government and complaining that the continuance of borrowing is a farce if hon. Members on the other side of the House resolutely oppose those principles which are absolutely essential to any real solution of this problem. I will explain the position if the Noble Lord will be good enough to listen.

At the present time, we have an alarming situation in the rapidity with which the debt upon the Unemployment Insurance Fund is accumulating. At the same time, the situation inside the country is not quite as deplorable as some of the defeatists would have us believe. I have been looking at the index of manufacturing productions prepared by the Board of Trade for the three-quarters of the present year. I find that, whereas the manufacturing production of the United Kingdom in the third quarter of this year decreased by 9.9 per cent, as compared with the third quarter of 1929, the decrease in other industrial countries was far greater. In the United States of America the figures for the three months—June to August—showed a decrease of 23.5 per cent., as compared with the same three months of last year, and in Germany the decline in production in the third quarter of the present year was 20 per cent, less than in the third quarter of 1929.

A further interesting fact emerges from those figures compiled by the Board of Trade. Taking the 10 industries which include the most important manufacturing industries in this country, the total production in the third quarter of 1930, that is, the quarter ending September, was 103.4 per cent, as compared with 100 in 1924. In those industries recorded in the Board of Trade Index, the total volume of production was therefore 3 per cent, in excess of that which it was in 1924, in spite of the fact that over 1,000,000 more workers are unemployed than six years ago. In the June quarter of this year, the production was 107 as against 100 in 1924, an increase of 7 per cent, with 1,000,000 more workers unemployed. In view of these facts, it seems to me that, if the Government are to avoid borrowing these enormous sums for the payment of Unemployment Insurance Benefit, they must do one of two things: Either they must find an increasing revenue from the Exchequer by means of further taxation in order to meet the bill, or they must insist upon the House of Commons equipping them with the necessary powers to deal constructively with this problem.

What is the situation to-day? All over the country the process of re-equipment and reorganisation of industry is going on. Complementary to that process, there is the unification of industries and groups of concerns, with the result that workshops and factories are being deliberately closed in certain parts of the country in order to reduce the productive capacity of the industry to a profit-earning rate; that is to say, to equate the possible demand for the goods of the industry with the productive capacity of the industry. It is absolutely criminal for all parties of this House to sit still and allow a situation to develop in which men are being thrown on to the unemployment scrap-heap, and being kept there month after month, and in many cases year after year, simply and solely through the exercise by the employing classes of the right of controlling industries. The workman under our present system of society has no rights, except so far as he can assure the protection of rights by trade union organisations. He has no right to say whether or not a factory shall be closed—

I understand Mr. Speaker to rule that suggestions and arguments regarding the expenditure which the Bill meets would be in order, but matters of administration generally arise properly on the discussion of the Ministry of Labour when the Estimates are introduced.

I did not hear Mr. Speaker's Ruling, but I am very anxious to respect your reminder of it. I was trying to show that, if the Government were to equip themselves with the power to insist upon the shortening of the hours of labour so as to absorb an additional number of men, they would be saved the necessity for a high proportion of the borrowings for the Unemployment Insurance Fund, but, if you rule that this is out of order, I will not develop it.

I would remind the hon. Member that that would require legislation which is not covered in this Bill.

I will leave that point. Perhaps you will permit me to turn to another matter, as it has been mentioned by the hon. and gallant Member for Gainsborough. This country is constantly said to be the highest taxed country in the world, and the hon. and gallant Member expounded upon that an argument that it was impossible for us to afford the enormous sums that we have to spend in unemployment relief. That may be perfectly true in regard to the highest rates of taxes and the highest incomes, but it does not appear to be true in relation to what we might term the whole of the middle classes. It is time that the statement that this country is the most heavily taxed country in Europe was challenged. I have a copy of the "Economist" for the 8th November, which records in great detail the examination into international middle class living costs which was recently undertaken by Unilever, Limited, a great international corporation which employs salaried staffs in almost every country in the world. I find that in the item of taxation, if we take a family consisting of a man, wife and two children—

I am afraid that that is not in order. It is in order for an hon. Gentleman to say that taxation is so much per head, but it is not in order for a reasoned argument to be based upon that.

If you rule that it is not in order, I will not pursue it, except to say that it is untrue to assert that the middle-class person with an income of £500 or even £1,500 a year is carrying a higher burden in this country than he is in any other European country. If there be an objection to borrowing on principle, no party in this House can rightly criticise the Government for what they are doing. The Coalition Administration commenced their operations with some £14,000,000 in hand for financing Unemployment Insurance Benefit, but by 1922 they had borrowed £22,000,000. The borrowings of the last Administration were such that at the time we took office they amounted to £36,000,000, so that they resorted to this expedient when it suited their particular purpose. Indeed, they left us to inherit a very large number of men on the live register for whom they had made no financial provision. At the time we took office, something like 113,000 people who were on the live register were totally unprovided for in the income of the fund. As the last Administration were responsible for extending—quite rightly—the transitional benefit, they cannot legitimately complain of the Government resorting to this expedient at this time of day, when over 1,000,000 people have been added to the unemployment register, and when the Government have already taken substantial steps to increase the amount of money paid from the Exchequer for the maintenance of the unemployed.

The whole cost of the transitional benefits, some £22,000,000 a year, is, I understand, being borne by the Exchequer. In addition, provision has had to be made for an increase in the proportion paid by the Government as their contribution towards the Unemployment Insurance Fund, which, I believe, added something like £3,500,000 a year to the income of the fund. I am surprised that hon. Members should criticise the Government when they know perfectly well that this is the only immediately practical way in which the Government can meet the criticism so often advanced that it is unfair and unjust to lay the whole cost of maintaining large numbers of the unemployed upon the ratepayers in those localities where most of the unemployed are congregated. It ought, in fairness, to be remembered that the changed administration of the Government, with the correspondingly increased burden upon the Unemployment Fund and the Exchequer, has to a considerable extent lightened the burden of many of the most depressed areas and saved their ratepayers many, many thousands of pounds. I suggest that it is much more important to every person whose income is under £1,000 a year to relieve the local rates. I hope that While the Government will resolutely tackle the necessity of bringing forward constructive solutions, they will also seek power to organise the industry of the country for the purpose of enrolling those who are able and willing to work, but the right to work can never be given so long as the pursuit of private gain under private enterprise is the motive force of our industrial activity.

It is very difficult to say anything new on this matter, and I should not have intervened in the debate but for statements in the speeches of hon. Members opposite that we, the Conservatives, are endeavouring to throw men out of unemployment benefit and to deny them sufficient money to enable them to live. I wish to repudiate that suggestion in the strongest possible way.

I would point out to the hon. Member who made that interjection that hon. Members on this side of the House have been elected by working-class majorities. They have the confidence of the working classes. A moment ago a new Member was sitting beside me who was elected to Parliament only last week. He was sent here from Scotland by a very large majority of working-class votes, and when we have the next General Election, hon. Members opposite will find that they have lost the confidence of the working class because they have not kept their promises. The working classes will come back to the Conservative party, as they always do in the long run.

I must tell the hon. Member that on that point he can have only a short run. It is a digression.

We want to pay benefits to the men who are entitled to them. After we have given them what the country can afford to give them, we are prepared to maintain those who are unable to find work or who have no resources, but what we are not prepared to do is to encourage abuses of any sort, legal or otherwise, because the country is not to-day in a position to afford any of these philanthropic luxuries. The hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. McGovern) said the unemployment figure was 2,000,000, might become 3,000,000, and might even rise to 4,000,000. I ask hon. Members opposite, "Why cry stinking fish all the time?" Things are bad enough now without envisaging 4,000,000 people unemployed. If the Minister of Labour made a practice of publishing every week not the number of men who are unemployed, but the number of those who are employed, it would take away from the working people and those who employ them that picture of unemployment which is before their eyes every time they read the increasing total of the unemployed.

The gravamen of the charge we make against the Government is, first, that they have got no scheme. They have no vision. Time after time they come to the House asking for money—this is the fifth time—and as long as they remain in power they will be coming with the same application every two or three months. When they brought in their unemployment Act, why did they not work out some sort of programme? They had not the faintest idea of what the scheme would cost. Over and over again I have asked the Minister of Labour what the different phases of the new Act cost and how that cost compared with the Exchequer estimates, but I have been told that the Ministry are unable to give any figures. Why? The Government frame a Bill and produce it to the House and give certain undertakings, and yet they have no figures to work upon. They go on from month to month, hoping for the best, hoping that trade will turn and take them out of the morass; but unemployment is mounting day by day, and they are reduced to coming to the House for sundry sums of £10,000,000 without any chance of being able to pay them back. They are not borrowing money; the money will never be paid back; the money is gone as far as the Exchequer is concerned. Why cannot they make up their minds as to how much they want and give the country a real picture of the position which it has got into? If the country has to find £50,000,000 or £60,000,000 or £100,000,000, the country will make preparations. At one time the Minister described this process of coming here to borrow these sums of £10,000,000 at a time as dishonest; now it is no longer dishonest but only stupid. Why not give us a figure which will enable the country to get some idea of what it has to face next year if the present Government remain in power? The second class to which I wish to refer—

The trouble of the hon. Gentleman who interjects is that he represents one very stupid class, the class that cannot look ahead, cannot learn anything and cannot remember what has happened in the past. The second point to which I am referring is the question of the abuses which are going on. There are, first, the legal abuses, that is to say, cases where people are drawing this dole strictly in accordance with the Act but who are not morally entitled to do so. The Government have realised at last that such cases exist and have decided to have an inquiry. Could the hon. Member on the Treasury Bench tell us when the inquiry will be started and what are the terms of reference? Is any real action being taken to do away with these evil abuses? If not, I think a Vote of Censure should be moved on the Government for allowing them to continue. The second class of abuses are those of a venial kind. I do not suggest that this class is very serious. It comprises the men and women who take advantage and get benefit in money. The Government, through their Emplyoment Exchanges, can put a stop to those practices; but such cases do exist and, unfortunately, they give an air of suspicion all over the country to the actions of the Labour Government.

I read in the paper this morning: in this country that there is a bottomless pit out of which money can be drawn to provide for people who are out of work, and the result is that the employer and the Employment Exchange officials do not trouble so much about seeing where there is work to be done. There is a feeling about the whole matter that the man will get a living even if he is not in work.

Several speakers on both sides of the House have told us that it is very difficult to make any constructive proposals, and what we have heard from them is more general criticism. I think there are possibilities of providing more work and, as an employer, I would like to pay a tribute to the Employment Exchange officials in this respect. On several occasions during the last three or four months I have had to apply to the Employment Exchange and, for the first time for many years, I have been supplied with men who do their work well. I say quite frankly that that is something new in my experience as an employer. I do not think that enough consideration is paid to the question as to how available work can be increased. The only solution of this problem of finding employment for the workers of this country is to work harder and longer.

Do I understand the hon. Member to say that it is absolutely essential, in order to regain our trade, that the working classes should work longer hours?

My statement is that all parties, the working class, middle class, and what you might call the upper class—that is a stupid term—every class should work longer, and that is the only way to get back to a better state of things and to make more money. It is not a question of cutting down wages. I believe in paying higher wages because that gives more encouragement to the men, but the only way in which we can succeed and get back to our old prosperity is to work longer hours and work harder.

9.0 p.m.

I do not believe in all the great schemes which are being put into force in this country entailing the borrowing of large sums of money in order to carry out works which may or may not be economical and necessary. It is quite true that for every £1,000,000 we spend in this way we employ only about 4,000 people. I very much doubt if we are employing those 4,000 people upon work to which they are used, or upon work from which they will learn anything.

I thought that I was at liberty to deal with any proposals which would reduce the amount required for unemployment grants. I think we might be able to create more work of every description in our Dominions and that would automatically bring orders to this country. That policy would find employment for our large works here, and, in addition, it would attract men and women from this country to the Dominions, where the conditions could not be worse, and might be much better, and that policy would bring increased trade to this country. At the present time, the taxes on the wealthier classes in particular are higher than in any other country in the world. What hon. Members opposite will not realise is that by taxing capital you are creating unemployment. We have often been told by members of the Labour party that capitalism has proved a failure. As a matter of fact, capitalism, up to a few years ago, has been a great success.

Neither the failure nor the success of capitalism arises on this Bill.

My argument is that, if taxation were lightened, employers would have more confidence in starting new works, and they would be prepared to take more risks which, in turn, would find more employment. Under present conditions, employers will not take the risk of starting new works, with the result that we have heavy taxation, and unemployment will continue to increase.

The attack which has been made on unemployment this afternoon and evening is in my estimation, a sham attack, but at the same time it is extremely illuminating. For instance, the remarks of the last speaker indicate a frame of mind which we are constantly asserting exists in the Tory party, and the existence of which is from time to time denied by them. It is interesting to notice that; the hon. Gentleman, while stating that he and his party were prepared to give maintenance to those who were worthy of it, said that nevertheless it would only be given if the recipients had no reserves. I should like to hear on some future occasion, what is meant by that phrase. If it has any meaning at all, I suggest that it means that the payment should only be made provided that the unfortunate recipient had already ransacked his house and either sold the contents or pawned them round the corner.

That is totally erroneous. The hon. Member must know that that was not my suggestion at all. I said that we were entitled to keep those who have nothing at all without any reserve, by which I meant those people who had not any work and could not get any work, and who, if they did not receive maintenance in some form or other, would starve—not people who had sold everything they possessed and were walking about the streets starving.

I am sure the hon. Member will be extremely grateful to me for enabling him to explain more fully what might otherwise have been a most unfortunate statement. Other statements that he made were equally interesting. If he contends that what we require from the workers—he modified it later, but this was his original statement—more work for longer hours, surely that is what he must have in mind as a kind of test of the sincerity of those who are genuinely seeking work, and I do not think I am very wrong in my deduction that he would like, if he could have the opportunity, to make it a kind of test whether those who are asking for benefit are willing to work longer hours than they have worked heretofore.

I am sorry, but I must again contradict the hon. Member. That was not my statement, nor was it my suggestion.

Of course, a simple negation proves nothing. I leave it to the House to deduce from the statements which have been made—[ Interruption ]—and I think that, as I am reminded by one of my hon. Friends, we shall see in the OFFICIAL REPORT to-morrow the remarks which the hon. Member made, and shall be able to draw our own deductions. The more speeches that are made by hon. and right hon. Gentlemen on the other side, the more illuminating does the whole subject become from a certain angle. The Conservative policy with regard to unemployment insurance benefit is twofold. In the first place, it is the transfer of at least 500,000 people from the Employment Exchanges to the Poor Law, with a reduced subsidy—the language of Mr. Garvin, one of the Tory oracles—[HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] It is very interesting to know that that gentleman is repudiated by some Members of the party opposite. It seems to me that, like another party which is now almost extinct, the Conservative party in course of time will be spending most of their time throwing one another out.

The other side of their policy, to which authenticity and justification are given by their own expressions, is that those who are able to join the Army and are not prepared to do so should, if they are unemployed, be refused benefit. I well remember the right hon. Gentleman the Member for St. George's (Sir L. Worthington-Evans) saying some months ago, in a similar debate to this, that the time might shortly arrive when we should have seriously to consider whether we should pay unemployment benefit to a working man when the Army was ready to receive him. The plain interpretation of that remark is that the right hon. Gentleman would say to those able-bodied working men who might apply for benefit, "If you are not prepared to join the Army, assuming that you can pass the physical tests, we are prepared to starve you." [ Interruption. ] I shall be very pleased if the right hon. Gentleman will come down to my constituency and repeat that sentiment, which he expressed in this House not so very long ago. Indeed, I wish that many of my constituents were here to note the tone and expressions of the speeches of hon. Members on the other side, because that would be more effective in awakening the electors in my district to a realisation of the real Tory temper than all the speeches that I could make.

I assume that this debate is not a debate on unemployment, but a debate on unemployment insurance. I mention that because, if I may say so humbly, the interpretation of that phrase has been exceedingly wide, and I sympathise deeply with the hon. and gallant Member for Kelvingrove (Major Elliot), who on several occasions was pulled up for misinterpreting the Ruling of Mr. Speaker. Others seem to have travelled just as widely from the real purpose of the debate. The issue is very simple. It is whether we are going to say to the unemployed people of this country, "Until we can discover what to do with the 5 per cent, of alleged abuses, we are going to allow you to starve." The hon. and gallant Member for Kelvingrove admitted that only 5 per cent. at the outside were abusing the Employment Exchanges and unemployment insurance, and hon. and right hon. Members opposite, in order to punish the alleged 5 per cent, who abuse unemployment insurance, are going to say to the other 95 per cent., "Until we have punished the 5 per cent., we are going to punish you meanwhile." As far as the alleged abusers of unemployment benefit are concerned, when one investigates many of these alleged abuses, these alleged slackers, we find that they begin to evaporate altogether. It is idle for hon. and right hon. Gentleman opposite to say that they have not insinuated or stated that the unemployed are slackers. One has only to look at some of their more popular organs to find in their columns week after week and month after month the insinuation that a considerable number—not 5 per cent., but 50 per cent, or more—are mere dole receivers and slackers who would not get work even if it were obtainable. I have been very interested in a suggestion made by hon. Members once or twice this afternoon, that, if only we could tighten up the regulations, we should compel the alleged 5 per cent, of slackers to go and look for work. What does that mean? If it has any meaning at all it means that there is work available now for working men and they will not seek it. I suggest that the only interpretation of the assertions and insinuations that are constantly made is that, if you put the screw on, you can compel men to find work. I should like to know where the work can be found. If these men did find work, would it not mean that those who, from the standpoint of hon. Members opposite, are more genuine, would simply be displaced by the greater energy stimulated by the greater efficiency of the Employment Exchanges.

I was very much surprised to find a little while ago that not only was the Conservative party carrying on this chorus of insinuation and denunciation with regard to alleged slackers, but that the Leader of the Liberal party also, in the pleasant atmosphere of Torquay, to an audience, possibly, of bath-chair ladies, was saying the same thing. Of course, one can understand how, in such an atmosphere as that of Torquay, where there is not a great industrial population, the assertion that a large number of slackers are receiving the dole would be received with approbation by the comfortable people inhabitating a district like that. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) did himself and his party a very grave disservice when he echoed the sentiments of the Tory party in the very pleasant middle-class atmosphere of Torquay.

I know, of course, that it may be said, "But surely you will admit that there are some who abuse unemployment benefit" Of course there are. There are bound to be one or two who, through mental deficiency, or through the cumulative effect of years of idleness, fall into a rut. We know full well that there are those of that type. Here I disagree with some of my own friends who claim that it is economic conditions that are entirely to blame. I think there are hereditary and biological factors which account for those of that type who are incapable of rising to such heights as hon. Members opposite are able to rise.

Why is it that Members of the Conservative party and the Leader of the Liberal party go out of their way continually, not to expose the slackness of those with wealth and comfort, but to stigmatise those who at the very best are getting a few shillings to keep body and soul together? It is mean and con- temptible. Suppose that there are those five per cent., what would you do with t them? Some have repudiated the policy of the editor of the "Observer," but 3 others have not. We know that the natural deduction to be drawn from the t sentiments expressed to-day is that thousands would be put off the Employment Exchange. What does that mean? You put them off the Employment Exchange and they go to the Poor Law. Either you are going to give them as much as you give them to-day or less. If you give them as much, it is just as much a drain on the community as the payment that you make now. The only 1 point in suggesting that, either by screwing up the regulations or by greater discrimination, you will switch several thousands off the Employment Exchange is that by so doing you will throw them on to public assistance and at the same time reduce the payment to them; in other words, you would either say "Join the Army or starve," or "Get off the t Employment Exchange and then starve." There is no other interpretation of the attitude of many Members.

Our position is very simple. We claim that whether a man is of high or low mentality, whether skilled or unskilled, at least he is our responsibility. He has got to live. We admit that there may be some who are slackers, but the number of slackers proportionately is no greater, indeed is less, than those who belong to the so-called upper classes. We say, further, that meanwhile, whatever may be our future arrangements, whatever may be the result of the Royal Commission that is to inquire into certain aspects of this problem, we must as a moral responsibility see that those who are unemployed through no fault of their own are fed. After all, 17s. a week can hardly do more than just feed them. We just maintain them at an animal level, just enough to give them proteins, carbo-hydrates, starches, and fats and nothing left for anything else. Let that be a national charge.

I will urge the right hon. Lady at least to keep in mind that whatever arrangements may be made respecting unemployment insurance in the future, there shall be no greater demand made on working men for contributions to the fund. Of course, some hon. Members have denied that this is an insurance fund. It depends on what you mean by insurance. In one sense, unemployment insurance is a vital necessity to our opponents at present. If that fund had not been in existence in the last 10 years, they and the country would have been in a very much worse position than at present. It is an insurance fund, but let us realise this. If you mean by an insurance fund that the total cost of the fund must rest upon the workmen, let hon. Members say so. If it does not mean that, then it means that, as heretofore, there must be three parties to the fund, the employer, the employé and the State. If it is assumed that that triangular basis must continue, we must be prepared in the future, if the fund does not balance, to increase the contribution of the State. If you do not do that, you will have to increase the contribution either of the employer or of the employé.

If the representatives of the employers opposite suggest that it will be preferable for them and their friends to increase their contribution, well and good, but I hardly think that it is likely. They are not, as a rule, very energetic in that direction. If, on the other hand, they want the employé to pay more, let them say that. I hardly think they will dare to say that, although no doubt many of them think it. On the other hand, whatever happens, we must see to it that the employé pays no more and that either you increase the contribution from the employer or from the State itself. If it is urged that this means a greater charge on our national resources, in any case, whether it comes from public assistance or from the State itself, it must come from somewhere if you are not going to starve these men altogether. There is the simple issue.

This is a sham attack. We know full well that the money has to be found. Those who are atacking it, although they will go to a Division and be defeated, would, if they succeeded, have to face the fact that we are facing now, that there are 2,000,000 unemployed and that they must be fed, they must have some elementary clothing, and they must have some means of keeping body and soul together. If they were to defeat us on this, they would still have to face the need that is pressing upon us at present. I think I know how they would face it. They would send some into the Army, reduce the benefit of others, send others on to the Poor Law, and starve a few more. That is certainly, in my estimation, the policy that many of them would adopt in spite of all the smooth words with which they cover their intentions. We intend to maintain the unemployed in common justice and humanity. We say to those who attack our proposal, "If you wish to defeat us on this issue, tell us plainly what you intend to do if your attack is successful." If it is not successful, we intend to go on. I will not discuss the causes of unemployment or ways whereby we can meet it. Unemployment Insurance is here and it has to be maintained, and the suggestion made by Members opposite that we should try to make the workers pay more severely for their own insurance is one that is unworthy of a nation that is still great and still wealthy.

The hon. Member who has just spoken has delivered to us a controversial and a vigorous speech mainly based on intentional or unintentional misrepresentation of the Amendment. It does not propose, in order to punish 5 per cent, of the abuses of the unemployed, that the whole of the unemployed should be penalised. It definitely states, in quite plain and simple words, that the Government should make plain its policy. That is a very reasonable and definite request, and beyond that we do not go. If the Government are not to make plain their policy, I consider that we are quite justified in putting the Amendment on the Paper. This Bill, which is a very simple one, is, in fact, a profligate Measure—not profligate because it proposes to provide £10,000,000 extra money for the Unemployment Insurance Fund, but because, in providing that £10,000,000, it does not do anything to ameliorate or help the cause which makes it necessary to provide it, namely, unemployment. It is an astonishing thing that the party opposite which was returned to power more than any other party perhaps because of its concentration on this particular subject, and because its Members said that within the first Session they would bring in Measures to relieve and help the working men of the country, have, up to now, perhaps with the sole exception of what is called in some parts of the country the "Dear Coal Bill," introduced no scientific measure of legislation to help this tremendous problem. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] If hon. Members have in mind some really constructive step which their party has proposed or does propose, I am quite sure the country would be enlightened, because it is the fact that the whole of this problem is to provide work.

The Parliamentary Secretary, to whose speech I listened with interest, said, turning to these benches: "Find the men work, and they will readily take it." Why should not the hon. Gentleman have turned round to the Front Bench on which he sits and said to his own party: "Pursue a policy which will enable people to provide work, and then you will deal with the problem"? The costs of production, which, after all, are the factors which govern ability to provide work, are, by the policy which the party opposite is pursuing, being increased, and, if that is so, how can how. Members hurl the statement across to us that we ought to provide work? There are two particular points in connection with this simple Measure which will enable me to illustrate what I mean by saying that the Government, instead of helping the employers to provide work, are hindering them. The Blanesburgh report stated that contributions could not be raised, but, in point of fact, the Government have raised them by their policy. They were raised by 17 per cent, last year, for the real value of the contributions has gone up by 17 per cent, through the process of deflation—or one-third since 1925. That is an additional burden on employers and employed, and one which rests alike on both sections of the community. It cannot be said by the party opposite that they have addressed themselves to that most vital question of deflation either by any suggested legislation or anything but the setting up of all sorts of committees, many of which have not yet delivered anything to this House on which we can act.

The Bill provides an increase in the borrowing powers to £70,000,000. That burden of borrowed money will rest, certainly in respect of two-thirds of it, on the employing classes, and by that I do not mean employers only, but workers as well. It will probably be a little more than two-thirds, because the employers also pay a portion of the State contribution. If you have to pay interest and sinking fund on this £70,000,000 at 5 per cent., and amortisation to wipe off the fund at the end of 20 years, it will require not less than £5,617,000 per annum. That is a burden on the insurance fund and a burden of not less than one penny per contribution per week, for 20 years, on employers, employés and the State. That has got to be dealt with. The Parliamentary Secretary said it could not go on. [ Interruption. ] The interruption may be interesting, but it is hardly intelligible. Whatever it may mean, it really reinforces the point that this amount of interest has to be provided, and at the moment it is provided, by means of this increased borrowing, as to two-thirds by the employing classes. It is an increased burden on that class, and an increased cost to the country, and, therefore, makes the ability to provide employment less.

The Parliamentary Secretary said this could not go on, but, of course, it is going on. It was suggested years ago that it should not and could not go on, but it is going on. We have to-day no policy, words, or suggestions of any substantial importance, and no ideas as to how this problem of unemployment is to be dealt with. At a time like this, when the question of the high costs level is causing the producing class of the community, both agriculturists and industrialists, continually to have to decrease the volume of employment that can be given, it is most unfortunate, and does not reflect credit on any side of the House, that we should be indulging in a mere measure to increase borrowing, when we ought to be tackling the fundamental problem of the high costs level and the decline in prices, and hammering out for the benefit of the country some Measure which will enable us to provide the volume of employment without which we shall continue to decline. My own view is that the Minister of Labour is not particularly proud of bringing in this Measure, and I am certain that the House, when it passes it, will not be particularly proud of having passed it.

I understand that earlier in the debate the hon. and gallant Member for Kelvingrove (Major Elliot) quoted part of a speech made by me on 1st December, and stated that, from the terms of that speech, it was evident that I supported the creation of a Royal Commission and the taking of some off the present unemployment insurance donations, creating thereby separate classes. One part of the speech to which he refers did, in consequence of words slipping in, give come ground for that impression, but I would advise him to see the slight rectification that has been made, because if he had only taken the trouble to read the whole speech, he would have seen that all along I was opposed to the Royal Commission and to separating any of those at present enjoying unemployment donation payments.

I have been peculiarly struck with the general line of argument this evening. On hon. Member said we should never get the fund solvent until we instituted harder work and longer hours. The hon. and gallant Member for Harrow (Major Salmon) said that these charges on industry gave no incentive to employers to develop their industry and give more employment. He took up that argument, but said that while he had no objection to what he termed the genuinely unemployed person who had established his right by stamp qualification receiving benefit, he did object to another class of applicant being paid anything at all from the funds of the insurance scheme. Another hon. Member suggested that while we might separate them for a time, we should keep the bridge open for them to step back. It appears to me that the opposition to this extra-borrowing power is not really sincere, but is being used in order to foster a general attack on hours and wages in this country, and in order to re-enforce their opposition, to take off the fund many present unemployed people, believing thereby that with their source of income denied they would be more willing to accept employment at longer hours and a lower rate of wages, and so fit in with the expression of the hon. and gallant Member for Harrow that by that means you would lift some of the charges off industry and enable it to absorb some of those who had been re fused benefit in unemployment insurance. I am one who believes that generally that would not find favour in this House.

There was another idea developed as though it were a sudden virtue possessed by the Conservative party. The hon. and gallant Member for Abingdon (Major Glyn) said that, because of the great friendly societies and the careful promotion of other systems and methods of insurance, all along he had advocated that there should be nothing but definite insurance before a right to benefit could be established. Surely Members opposite do not desire us to believe that this is a sudden-found virtue on their part? Surely they do not want us to believe otherwise than that they speak with their tongue in their cheek when they speak like that? They do not want reminding that the circumstances of the time compelled them to pay money without contribution, just as circumstances now compel the Minister to ask for the loan of another £10,000,000. This is not the time for the Opposition to say, in effect, "Unless you make known the kind of abuses you are going to deal with, and give some indication of the many thousands you hope to wipe off the fund, we will not vote for this £10,000,000." If I wanted to use this argument to the fullest extent I would point out that the Conservative Opposition say to the unemployed, "Because we are dissatisfied with the Labour Government not making known to us how many abuses are committed and how many people they will wipe off the fund, we will not let the Government have the £10,000,000. That would mean, possibly, that at Christmas week none of the unemployed would be able to receive their full benefit. That would be the net result. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] Oh, yes, the Minister says plainly that the fund is fast running out. We require to borrow another £10,000,000. You say, "If we can, we are going to vote against this extra £10,000,000," and I say that possibly by Christmas, because of that refusal to grant the £10,000,000, it would not be possible to pay full unemployment benefit to those persons who are at present entitled to receive it.

It is quite clear that the £10,000,000 will, in part, be drawn upon before many weeks are past. At all events, it would come within a week or two weeks after Christmas. Do hon. Members opposite realise that even if this borrowing power does go up to £70,000,000, the State charges its full pound of flesh in interest on that loan? Do they know that the very fact that the State is demanding interest on the overdraft is making it difficult for the fund, because it is adding interest to the sum total eventually due to the Treasury from the fund?

I do not see that. If we borrowed £70,000,000, it is clear the debt would be more than £70,000,000; it would be £70,000,000 plus interest, and the interest is to be chargeable against the future contributions of the Fund. That is the position, and I do not think any Member of this House is prepared to face up to it. I urge the House not to act in panic at, perhaps, the worst time in our history. Surely you do not want to see the "bread lines" develop as they are in America? I received a communication from America two or three weeks ago—" S.O.S., 5,000,000 unemployed," pictures of men standing in long queues in what they call the "bread line," and frantic appeals being made to the citizens of that great country to come to the aid of the unemployed. America is now feeling the draught of having made no provision in times of prosperity to meet the times of adversity; she is in a panic. It is not for us, when distress is at its worst, to create panic administration, and bring about the old soup-kitchen method denounced so emphatically by everybody. You cannot have such public demonstrations without the nation losing some prestige in the eyes of the world. I would rather urge that the £10,000,000 be granted.

Surely, hon. Members opposite do not want to punch the man now he is half down and out. That is what it amounts to. I know that they do not mean it, not if they are in any way real sportsmen. I am giving them credit for having some touch of humanity about them. They say that the abuse has come from the persons who have been admitted to benefit who have not a stamp right to a claim. That means that those persons have been out of work for a long time. The longer they have been out of work the more their home has been depleted and the greater has been their degree of suffering. Now, hon. Members are saying, and it is all innuendo, all guess work, that because there are abuses they want to rectify the whole position and bring in an actuarial basis. Pounds, shillings and pence must count more than the con- dition of these men and their wives and children. If that is not punching a man when he is half down and out, I do not know any other word to describe it.

There is talk about public assistance. An hon. Member opposite read a cutting from a newspaper in support of the argument that the £10,000,000 should not be used to pay unemployment benefit to certain people because somewhere Doncaster way four men had been sentenced for committing a fraud on the public assistance authority. Because of that, he quoted the argument against the Labour Ministry. What on earth ha3 the Labour Ministry to do with the law as applied to public assistance? The best way out of the difficulties for the future would be an all-in scheme of insurance. I would take railway men, domestic servants, agricultural workers and all classes into a great national scheme, and I would make provision during times of prosperity in sufficient volume to enable us to meet even the most distressing times of adversity. I would not refuse benefit to those to whom I had refused the opportunity to make provision for such a contingency by keeping them outside insurability.

We must not forget that we are dealing with a Bill which is headed "Unemployment Insurance," and we must apply our minds to see how far the word "insurance" is applicable. In the King's Speech when the Government took office there was reference to the question of unemployment insurance. It was stated clearly in that speech, in July of last year, that: any agreement, but in this case it looks as if the Government suspended the work of the committee because they were afraid that it might arrive at a decision. Therefore, the valuable work of the committee was lost and no notice was taken of it. On the contrary, its work was entirely superseded by the announcement that a Royal Commission was to be set up. Then we come to the Gracious Speech at the opening of the present Session, on the 28th October, in which we find the statement:

We on these benches are justly entitled to move an Amendment such as the one that has been moved to-day. Hon. Members opposite may attempt to throw sand in our eyes and to make the country believe that our intention is to produce bread queues, but that is to shut their eyes to the facts of the case. We have been promised a thorough investigation of a fund which is becoming bankrupt through mismanagement. I say "mismanagement" because it is no longer a solvent insurance fund. Instead of the assurance that it will be examined we get another request for further borrowing powers to put the fund further into debt. We hold that prosperity can never be built up in this country on doles. We believe in a system of insurance and that an extension of the present system of insurance, codified and regulated, is necessary to our national welfare. We believe most strongly, however, that prosperity will only return if it is built up on wage-earning power rather than doles. Every step taken by the present Government to borrow money to be applied to a fund which is nominally an insurance fund but has long ceased to be so, and to hand out the money in the form of relief is taking us further away from the day of prosperity. In that belief we strongly urge the Government to come right out into the open and to say what they are going to do in this matter.

The whole country, the unemployed people themselves, and certainly the nine or ten millions of people who are in employment and are paying their contributions towards insurance are entitled to be told what is to be done to keep the scheme on a solvent basis. They know that so long as the Government go on shilly-shallying with it, as they are at the present time, the more serious the position of the fund becomes, and so does their position become more precarious, because it is militating against the continuance of their jobs. The piling up of taxation, and this further £10,000,000 means the piling up of taxation, is making the job of every man in this country more precarious. I trust that the arguments put forward from these benches will receive a considered answer from the Minister of Labour. As yet, we have not been told the reasons for delay in the matter. I do not think the Government can have any reasons, otherwise they would have put them before the House. We have proposed our Amendment in the belief that we are doing good work for the country as a whole in endeavouring to get the Government to stand up to a question which must be faced if our country is to remain a great power and a great manufacturing nation. We pride ourselves that we are a great manufacturing country still, but our very backbone is being destroyed by the action of the present Government.

At the close of a debate which has ranged fairly wide over an interesting field, let me say a word to reassure the hon. Member for West Nottingham (Mr. Hayday) as to what will be the consequence of the carrying of the Amendment in order to enlist his support for it. He supposes that it would result in no money being paid to the unemployed. That is not the case. As the hon. and gallant Member for Kelvingrove (Major Elliot) pointed out at the beginning of the debate, the natural" consequence of carrying the Amendment would be that if they were denied power to borrow money for the fund the Government would have to put the fund in a position to discharge its obligations in the only other way open; and that is by voting it money on the Estimates. Frankly, we should consider that an improvement, for reasons which I will explain. It would be an abandonment of the pretence of borrowing, and, at any rate, if you clear away one pretence from this field, which is now so full of pretences, you will have gained something. As a matter of fact, one knows that that is not what the consequence would be. This Amendment is proposed for a specific purpose, and it is to impress upon the Government its obligation to deal with certain notorious abuses; and, if the Amendment is carried, it would be an obligation of the Government to tell us their policy for dealing with these abuses. If they did so to the satisfaction of the House, the Government would continue in power, but, if they did not, there would be a change in the administration of the country.

I will say in a moment or two if the hon. Member will give (me time. It is difficult to speak about everything at once. I confess that the final alternative, a change in the Government of this country, is a change which, after listening to this debate, we on this side of the House contemplate more than ever with equanimity. We have heard a Government and its supporters doing their best to struggle with a very bad case; one of the worst cases they have had to defend among a lot of very bad cases. Among the arguments we have heard to-day there is one to which we have listened with some impatience, and that is the renewed attempt made to introduce class feeling into the debate. I would not say a word to contribute to that attempt. Let us lay it down as a basis of our discussions, if you like the heated discussions that mark our differences on this topic, that we approach this question, as one of great national moment. Hon. Members opposite will never do justice to their case until they make this concession to the existence of representative institutions, that all Members of this House represent not them- selves but their constituencies, and that we on these benches represent great popular constituencies afflicted by the evil of unemployment as much as the constituencies of hon. Members opposite.

10. p.m.

Let us accept that basis as a contributor to a useful discussion; and let this assumption be accepted: that it is commonly recognised by everybody in this country that, struggling with the great difficulties with which we are struggling, yet we assume that no man, woman or child in this country because of the great evil of unemployment is to be allowed to be destitute or in want. That is a common assumption. But when hon. Members opposite address to us the arguments we have heard to-day, that in no circumstances and in no cases can a single penny of economy ever be made on money that is spent on the relief of unemployment, then they are simply flying in the face of the facts of the case. Is it not realised that we are confronted with a great change in our national conditions? We are constantly met, when we attempt to argue this case, with the contention: "Oh, you started this system; you were responsible for the present basis, and you have no right to complain." It is true that the present system was started under past Governments, but under very different conditions!

We are absolutely untroubled by the argument that we must not desire or demand any change, because circumstances have changed. I say that the days are coming when this House will be obliged, by the mere hard force of circumstances, to make very substantial retrenchments in its social services. I do not desire it, nobody desires it, but we cannot obscure our eyes to the fact that we are in for conditions of national prosperity so difficult that we must confront this possibility. Circumstances have changed and our policy must change with it. If that be so, look at another aspect of the matter. What we are contending for to-day is that the Government and hon. Members opposite shall recognise that the process of support of the unemployed on the scale upon which they have been supported in the past has reached a point at which it has to be reviewed by the council of the nation.

We desire to direct the attention of the Government to two particular criticisms. The speech of the Parliamentary Secretary failed to distinguish the two grounds of criticism advanced against the present proposal. There is first the criticism that we look upon it as yet another fatal blow to the principle we desire to maintain—the principle of sound insurance. The second ground of criticism is that we are not content that this House should continue to vote money for unemployment until we learn the policy of the Government to deal with certain specific abuses. First of all upon the question of the preservation of the principle of insurance. It is worth fighting for. I know that there is a school of thought amongst hon. Members opposite which does not value the idea of insurance, as such. It is a school of thought which has been represented in our debates, particularly by the hon. Member for Camlachie (Mr. Stephen) and his associates, and it says, "Never mind whether it is true insurance or not, keep it going, give it the colour of insurance, even though, as insurance, it is bankrupt." We definitely join issue on that. Insurance is one of the most valuable principles of moral support for the wage-earners and the nation as a whole. Of that there can be no doubt whatever. The principle of it is that benefits shall be in relation to contributions, in other words, that the fund shall be self-supporting. If you once destroy all sense and idea of that relation between benefits and contributions in the minds of the people at large, insurance dies, and if insurance dies you lose one of the greatest supports you have for social advancement. Who can doubt for a moment that that invaluable principle is running the greatest possible danger under the course of legislation which the Government are pursuing. Let me ask the attention of the House to the barest figures in order to show how remote we have gone from the true principle of insurance.

At the present time, the contributions are £30,000,000 from the industries, employer and employed; the contribution from the Exchequer is £15,000,000, and then, to make up the expenditure of £107,000,000, you get a contribution from the Exchequer to transitional benefit of £22,000,000 and the borrowing of £40,000,000 a year. [An HON. MEMBER: "It all comes from industry."] I am trying to make some hon. Members opposite understand the nature of an Insurance Fund, and I am afraid some of them do not understand it. £62,000,000, as compared with £45,000,000, is the contribution from the State as compared with the income of the fund. There is bankruptcy in every line of that, and it is admitted, and, in addition to that, there is the £14,000,000 which the State finds for relief of the able-bodied, but, as that does not come under insurance, we simply glance at it. The Insurance Fund is doubly bankrupt, first, because of the transitional benefit which is outside insurance, and then because of the £40,000,000 which the Government have to borrow in order to keep the ordinary benefits of the fund going. If it is worth while maintaining any reality at all in the idea of insurance, and it is one of the things we ought to lay down as one of the foundation stones of the national economic life, it is worth while to clear away all this pretence and the sham. Let us clear away the pretence of the transitional period. Who believes the period to be transitional any longer?

I have tried to impress on the House that we are meeting wholly new conditions. If one thing emerges with certainty, it is that we can never get back to solvency of the fund by repayment of those contributions.

If you are to restore solvency to the fund and save the idea of insurance from a mortal wound from which it will never recover, how are you to do it? I know that the word segregation has come to have a bad significance to hon. Members opposite. Let us choose another word, separation or some other word of that sort. Whatever scheme you choose in order to bring some sense, into this matter of maintenance, you must put the £45,000,000 of contributions apart, with no heavier burden of benefits than it can carry, and so get a solvent fund, and deal with the £62,000,000 of State assistance in some other manner. Let it be a frank scheme of maintenance. We are constantly being asked by hon. Members opposite what are our proposals. There never was a clearer admission of the bankruptcy of the Government. Refer- ences have been made to the public assistance committees. I am glad to recognise rather a new feeling in hon. Members opposite towards the possibility that the public assistance committees might come in and lend a hand in dealing with the administration of this fund. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] I know that the hon. Member for West Nottingham (Mr. Hayday) is under the impression that he has suffered an injustice from the hon. and gallant Member for Kelvin-grove, but I draw great encouragement from what he said. He said:

I admit the words quoted lend themselves to the assumption which has been drawn from them, but the words which I actually used—and hon. Members who are present will bear me out—were these:

"I would not send them to the public assistance committees, and I would not let the public assistance authorities, in conjunction with the Treasury who have made substantial contributions, have anything to say as to how the money should be administered."

If the whole of my speech is read, it will be seen that I was always opposed to any separation or segregation.

I fully accept the statement that is now given by the hon. Member, and I hope he will not think I was misrepresenting him because I used words as they appeared in the OFFICIAL REPORT. I am sorry if I have misrepresented him.

Of course, I entirely accept the hon. Member's correction, and I can only express my regret that he is not a convert to the point of view which seems to me to be obviously one of common sense. I now find that the responsibility of making the point must be mine, and I cannot shelter myself behind the broad shoulders of the hon. Member. The point is that many of those engaged in the practical administration of unemployment benefit and who have seen the evils that are creeping into it believe and say that what is needed in its administration is more human and local know- ledge of the circumstances of cases, and that is what we hope we should get from enlisting the knowledge and help of the public assistance committees in distributing the fund. That is our first contention, that you owe a great obligation to the nation to preserve the insurance spirit in the nation, and that is being ruined by the present conduct of the Insurance Fund.

The only way to save it is to separate the solvent part of the fund from the transitional benefit and from the borrowed part, and in that effort we would implore the Minister of Labour to return to an earlier and better mind. In the opulent golden dawn when she was still viewing her responsibilities with a fresh mind, and had not become involved in the difficulties of administration, she told us with eloquent words that no reasonable man or woman would suggest that the solution of the problem of unemployment was by adding £85,000,000 to the debt of the Fund. I agree that she has not yet added £85,000,000 but £70,000,000 is getting very near it. [An HON. MEMBER: "Who said it was a debt?"] The Minister of Labour used the word "debt." On another occasion there were the words, now so famous, in which she told us that it would be a dishonourable course to contract a debt which there was no possibility of paying off. If it was true then, it is doubly, trebly true now, when the condition of the nation makes it quite unthinkable that we should ever pay off this debt.

On an even earlier occasion she told us that it would be a vicious course. The second reason why we cannot be content to assist in passing this Bill under present conditions is specified in the terms of the Amendment. We desire to know what course the Government propose to take as regards the admitted abuses which are leading to constant wastage of the resources of the fund. The course of this debate has made it perfectly clear that we must point out that we are not dealing in this Amendment only with illegal acts. There are three possible classes of abuse. There is, first, the merely criminal act, the fraudulent abuse of the fund. That class of abuse may not be on the increase. The Minister tells us that it is not, which is rather contrary to the general impression, but, as has been well said by an hon. Member who spoke from this side, that is an insignificant circumstance and it is not to that class that we are devoting our attention.

Then there are actions which are not fraudulent but are illegal in the sense that they are stretching the terms of the scheme beyond what their legal content justifies. We are not dealing wholly with that class of abuse either. What we are pointing to is a class of abuses which are not legal abuses but economic abuses, which are false policy. That policy, I contend, is leading this country far down into a Slough of Despond from which it will be very difficult for it to escape. These are abuses none the less, although they are legal, because they are contrary to common sense. They go beyond what the country can afford in the way of relief and they are contrary to economic principles which are not mere abstract theories, but are the foundations of common sense in national policy.

There are two classes of such abuses to which we draw attention and of which convincing testimony has been given in the course of these debates. There are, first, people receiving relief who are in a phrase which has now become famous primâ facie evidence in the course of our speeches as to make our case one which no Government ought to resist. We point first to the case of the seasonal worker.

We say there has been an improper increase of the use of the Unemployment Fund by seasonal workers who are in employment during part of the year, in order to draw benefit for those periods during which they are not normally in employment, during which they have never usually been in employment, for which they used to make provision during their seasonal employment, and for which they could still make provision. We say that it might be a very nice thing, if the nation was in a state of abundant wealth, to make some additional provision for the seasonal worker during his bad time, but since, in the past, he has got on without it, then in the present condition of the nation it is not essential that there should be this provision. It is, therefore, an abuse of the fund. [ Interruption. ] It is idle to use words of that sort. Hon. Members opposite will never get their minds into the right state to confront the emergency in which we stand unless they begin to realise that this is not a great, rich nation settling how it will distribute its surplus wealth, but a nation, struggling with the greatest possible difficulties to make both ends meet, deciding whether it can spend to the best advantage the small sums which it knows it has to spend and has to spare for these forms of relief.

Continuing on that basis, which is the only basis of reality, the second abuse is the abuse of the married women. There, again, the abuse is admitted by the Minister of Labour. At least, she admits facts which we say are such strong evidence that they really speak for themselves, that there has been an increase from 25 to 50 per cent, of married women claimants since the year 1927. That fact is eloquent of persons being admitted to the enjoyment of benefit who are not in need, and we know that, if they are not in need of it, we cannot spare it at the present time.

The strongest case of all, and the case upon which I would lay particular emphasis, is that of the short-timer. It is a new matter. I know that, by making use of unemployment relief as an assistance to wages in certain industries on the system of short-time, its seeds were sown during the last Administration. Let that be admitted, but the seeds have now sprung up into weeds which are threatening to choke the whole scheme of unemployment relief. It is not for me to say, and I do not attempt to say, whether the late Administration ought to have foreseen the danger or not, but, at any rate, the danger is so great that it is only by gross negligence and incompetence that the Government can fail to remedy it now. I speak for myself alone when I say that it appears to me that this growth of the use of unemployment relief as a sub- sidy for wages on the principle of short-time is one of the most dangerous and mischievous expansions of the unemployment scheme which has ever occurred, and it threatens the greatest mischief and danger to our national and economic status.

Let me, in a few words, develop what are the dangers. You must take a wide view. You must not consider only the interests of the persons engaged in the industry, but the national interests as a whole. The greatest national interest at the present time is that capital and labour should be fluid and mobile so as to turn from exhausted and decadent trades into new trades where they find it profitable. There should be mobility of labour and capital. It is plain that by making the use of unemployment relief to subsidise wages in decadent trades you are promoting inefficiency in trade, you are stabilising decay, and you are preventing the conversion of the national resources in the most fluid manner into those channels where it can best be used. That is a very wide point of view. There are narrower and more immediate evils. Even if you accepted the general principle, you could not allow it to continue in the present haphazard way. That has been fully demonstrated in the course of this debate. You cannot allow it to continue in such a manner that in any one trade as between various firms and businesses concerned in that trade, it is the successful wangler that gets the benefit. You cannot allow it to continue when, as between various trades of different interests, certain trades are being permanently supported by subsidy obtained at the expense of the other trades. The matter is absolutely haphazard; the whole system appears to me to be essentially vicious, and you have not to accept that wider principle in order to see that the present haphazard methods cannot be allowed to continue.

If anyone doubts that the method is vicious, I would ask them to renew in their memory that page of history that is associated with the Speenhamland scheme. Rates—not Exchequer money—were used as subsidy for agricultural wages, and it had two specific evils which were so great, that, by great effort, the State had to abolish the scheme. It led to permanently depressed conditions and wages in agriculture. I commend that observation to the attention of hon. Members opposite. If they could learn from experience and history, they would know that this method of short-time subsidies is the only real adverse factor against good wages which has appeared in our economic scene lately, as compared with all the imaginary plots and conspiracies about which we hear. So much for its effect on wages, but the Speenhamland subsidy had a greater defect. As one who desires to see the private initiative of the so-called capitalist system maintained in health and prosperity, I am gravely concerned with this, because this particular economic abuse has the most grave and mischievous effect upon the responsibility of the employer. It relieves him from the necessity of struggling with his own financial position, and that is an influence which I am reluctant to see introduced in the industry of the country, as it was once introduced into our agriculture.

I have said that the second field of abuses which we are concerned to bring to the attention of the Government is a different one. So far, I have dealt with the class which is in receipt of relief when there is reason to suppose that it is not needed, but there is a wholly different class of abuse. It is involved in the question of the amount which is being spent upon the actual rates of relief. [ Interruption. ] I know that this is a matter fraught with political passions, and it is extremely difficult to refer to it without arousing those passions. It is, however, an economic issue before the country, and must be referred to. I will only refer to it in this way, by saying that it is a matter for the greatest consideration, now that the economic state of the country has taken so serious a turn for the worse, as to what is the scale of benefit which you can afford. [ Interruption. ] I am not in the least ignorant of the passion that this excites among Members opposite. It is not an easy thing to say, but it happens to be true, so it had better be said. We are only beginning the discussion of this subject in the House, and it will have to be gone into more deeply as the years pass.

Let me point out the magnitude of the sums involved. The amount of uncovenanted benefit which is being paid at the present time is £75,000,000. The Minister of Labour has told us that the addition of benefits for which she is responsible is £13,000,000. That is made up partly of the married women, partly of additional claims allowed owing to the abrogation of the genuinely-seeking-work Clause, and partly to increased benefits, starting from that happy dawn when the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave her £2,000,000 with which to play, in a sportive mood, which is not likely to return. The sum of £13,000,000 is her addition, and I do not hesitate to say that a careful examination of the whole body of expenditure on unemployment relief might very well find that double that amount could be saved. I will put the sum at £25,000,000 for the purposes of illustration. If we could save £25,000,000 out of the £75,000,000 applied to uncovenanted benefit that would release a capital sum of the Value of £500,000,000. However much it takes to employ a man it does not take £500, but let me take the capital sum at £500. With £500,000,000 we should have capital with which to find employment for 1,000,000 men. That is the order of the sums which we are considering. Turning for a moment to look on the obverse of the picture is it not plain that with the process which is now going on under the present administration we are driven on from pillar to post, ever piling up fresh additional burdens, and, by the mere fact of extravagance in unemployment relief, creating that unemployment which we are trying to cure?

I have tried to show that sums can be saved representing a capital value which would be sufficient to cure the worst evils of unemployment itself, but there is no hope for the Government, because they do not understand that there is a new feeling abroad in the country. They do not understand that the country is longing to be relieved from this snare of the vicious circle of expenditure upon relief and the consequent fresh unemployment which that expenditure is creating. The country has been suffering from a disorder of the mind. It has been drugged, drugged with the promises of fairy gold from the Socialist Government, and now it is recovering and is asking for relief. But again the Government can give it no hope. The Government can only go on repeating the old election game of "more promises for more votes."

There have certainly been wickeder Governments in this country and there have been more stupid Governments, but there has never, I think, been a Government which has been more remorseless towards the country in its insistence upon the vanity of its doctrines in the face of all the facts of the day. We see in such debates as this the result of the insincerity in which it was born. It was born in insincerity, it has lived in incompetence, and now it is dying of general paralysis. It has every symptom of that disorder. It is suffering from the megalomania which leads it to vote £40,000,000 of fresh expenditure in a year in which we are facing a deficit. It is suffering, too, from persecution mania, as is exemplified by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who sees a plotter behind every bush. But chiefly it is dying of a paralysis of every function of the intelligence. Indeed, it is not only dying, it is dead. No noise proceeds from the seat of Government but the rattling of dry bones. Unfortunately, our Constitution contains no sanitary provisions for getting rid of a dead Government and the nuisance must continue as long as the right hon. Gentleman for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) denies the Government Christian burial. In the meanwhile, for us there is a short space to make a resolution. There is an inexorable law which ties reward to labour and labour to reward, and it should be our task to restore observance of that law.

The right hon. Gentleman who has just resumed his seat stated that this was a dying Government. He certainly seems to be qualifying for undertaker. I think hon. Members opposite were in error in their suggestions regarding the purpose of this Amendment. The Unemployment Insurance Acts regulate in detail the amount that has to be voted by the House for the fund. First, the grant on the equal thirds basis. In the second place, the transitional money has to be voted. To vote more than is laid down in the Acts of Parliament would be entirely unconstitutional. The effect of the Amendment, as it has been stated by some hon. Members on this side of the House, is far more accurate than the explanation given by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Norwich. I agree that this question is one of national importance. We also agree with the right hon. Gentleman that there is a great change in the national position, in fact, there has been a great change in connection with the whole development of industry itself and its effect on the employment market.

We shall not agree, however, in the only solution which he has suggested, for he looks only in one direction, that is retrenchment in our social services. Speaking generally, I think the majority of the Members of this House belonging to all parties are in favour of the preservation of the principle of insurance. But let me remind hon. Members opposite, when they talk about the principle of insurance, far too many of them suggest that that principle is bound up by the system of measuring individual contributions with individual benefits. May I remind the House that the Government that destroyed that basis of the fund was not the Government which is sitting on these benches at the present time? What has taken its place? Not an individual member's contribution against the individual member's benefit, but the totality of contribution in relation to the totality of benefit. That is what we have accepted on this side of the House.

The right hon. Gentleman has asked us to clear away the transitional benefit. I have had to handle this business for something under 18 months, and right hon. Gentlemen opposite had four years in which to attempt to deal with this question and they never attempted to differentiate between transitional benefits and the ordinary benefits of the fund. They did not attempt to deal with the deficiency period. I have taken steps in both directions, and this is the only Government that has taken any steps at all to introduce something like a reasonable permanency into what is to be the maintenance arrangements for the unemployed. I was very glad to hear the right hon. Gentleman say that we had to face up frankly to a scheme of maintenance. That is what I am trying to do in the differentiation which I have already established between a contributory fund and those in receipt of benefit who are not paying any contributions at all. I agree that it is quite possible that the Royal Commission may be able to find a solution by which we may secure a closer co-operation with the local authority, not in its functioning as a public assistance committee, but, what is much more important, in its functioning as a work-finding authority. In that direction I believe there is room for a much closer association of the local authorities with the whole problem of unemployment, particularly in relation to certain categories of the older men and women who cannot hope to move from the geographical area in which they find themselves at the present time.

As to the questions of seasonal workers, married women, and short-time workers, I dealt at great length in my speech on the Money Resolution with what were described as legal abuses, and I do not think it would be the wish of the House that I should repeat to-night what I then said. Every one of those questions has been taken up by my administration, and has been the subject of the closest investigation, and it is because of the work we have done in that direction that the matter has been brought before the House by myself and by other speakers on the Government benches. With regard to the statement that the present method amounts to subsidising wages in the decadent industries, I am bound to say that I was surprised to hear it. I am quite aware that shipping, docks, textiles and other great industries are going through a very terrible time, and that they need drastic reorganisation, but I certainly would not call them the decadent trades of this country. I think that that is the greatest possible misrepresentation of the position. These trades are not merely going to survive, but are going to continue to be among the most important trades in this country. Within those trades, however, I quite admit that the use of short-time methods has been extended to a very great extent, and to an extent which some of us think is beyond reason. I do not quite follow the right hon. Gentleman's argument with regard to the £500,000,000 to which he referred, but I take it that his calculation was that, for every £1,000,000 spent on the fund, if it were spent in some other direction, 2,000 persons would be able to be put to work. If the right hon. Gentleman is under the impression that the £500,000,000 which he does not wish to see circulated in the present way is simply thrown down the drain, I would say that, although there may be disagreement as to the wisdom of the distribution, I think there can be no disagreement that this money is actually spent in the purchase of necessary commodities, and to that extent is of assistance to the trading community of this country. To talk about it as though it were sheer waste seem to me to be a gross exaggeration of the position.

I should like now to refer to some of the arguments used by the hon. and gallant Member for Kelvingrove (Major Elliot). He quoted me as having said that we have to devise a solution with regard to the question of married women, and he proceeded with his usual dexterity to endeavour to reproach me with not having already devised that solution. He forgets entirely that I said in my speech that, in regard to this question of new provisions for married women, I was strongly of opinion that it is a matter on which the women themselves have a right to be heard before any changes are made. I think the same principle must be applied in regard to the question of short time. It is admitted on both sides that that is so common to certain trades to-day that any attempt at a sudden change or reversal of practice would have the most serious consequences upon the trades concerned, and surely no one would venture on any hasty or ill-considered change until, at any rate, those trades most vitally concerned have had an opportunity of putting their side of the question also.

Then the hon. and gallant Gentleman asked what attitude the Government is going to take up and what policy were they going to put before the Royal Commission. Conservative administrations have set up Commissions. I was a member of one committee of inquiry that they set up, but I do not remember any representative of the Government coming to that committee beforehand and announcing what the Government policy was going to be, before the committee had had the evidence and considered it. Such an idea is absurd. It is obviously merely a debating score. The question also has been raised on more than one occasion of delay. I think the word "malingering" was used on one or two occasions. Cer- tain other Members who have spoken, notably, the hon. Member for Colchester (Mr. O. Lewis) and the hon. Member for Midlothian (Major Colville) used such phrases as "lack of courage," and said that we will hand over to them a job that we have not the courage to tackle. Those two Members might be excused, because they have not had a very long acquaintance with the history of the fund. They are newcomers to the House. But I think it comes with an ill grace from anyone on that side of the House to talk about lack of courage in dealing with what is recognised as one of the most difficult problems that any Government has had to face and, whatever I hand over to my successors, I will not hand over such a mess as I inherited. The hon. Member for Colchester also, I think, was utterly confused as to the nature of the Bill before the House. He talked as though it was dealing with those who had not paid contributions. But, of course, he requires to be reminded that all the recipients that we are discussing here to-night are meeting the contributions test. They are, in fact, in-insured persons, though it is a question that is a matter for debate as to whether the terms of their insurance are or are not the most just than can be devised.

The hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Gainsborough (Captain Crookshank) referred, very properly, to a change of feeling. I agree that there is a change of feeling, and I agree also that there is a vast change of feeling as the result of the discussion as to the continued difficulties which all parties in turn have had to face. The greatest change of all is that to-day we have a complete repudiation by the Conservative party of any suggestion that, if they were in office, they would send these people back to the Poor Law, and I hope we shall all remember that. I believe that that is now the declared policy of all parties in the House that, no matter what system they may devise, it must be a system which will preserve the able-bodied unemployed within the insurance field from ever going back to be a charge upon the Poor Law. To that extent, that is a great and a beneficent change in the opinion of the House. The hon. Member for East Birkenhead (Mr. White) who, as usual, made a very thoughtful contribution, made a point as to the unwisdom of assuming that anybody who handles this problem can handle it from the point of view of working to save money. Those who attempt to approach it from that point of view are doomed to failure at the very beginning. They may approach it from the standpoint of seeing to it that the money spent is spent wisely and well, but the primary object of the consideration of unemployment is to see how best this nation can preserve the physical efficiency and general stability of the population as a whole and of the unemployed in particular.

The suggestion made by the hon. Member that employers must take their share of responsibility in the matter of charges of malingering is one which I want to emphasise very strongly indeed. I am convinced that for this gossip about people refusing to take jobs much of the responsibility must be placed at the door of the employers who know where the job is but refuse or fail to report it to the Employment Exchanges. It is a point upon which there has been for a very long time a hardening of opinion in favour of the compulsory notification of vacancies, in order that we may know where there are jobs which, it is said, are refused, but of which the Exchanges have had no notice and no knowledge. The hon. Member then asked what were the points upon which the Royal Commission would be urged to submit interim reports. Two points are certainly those which were referred to by him, namely, the questions of seasonal workers and married women. They will be specially impressed with the urgency of the whole question of transitional benefit, because the date makes the whole matter of great urgency.

A question was raised by the hon. and gallant Member for Abingdon (Major Glyn) with regard to selective work at Employment Exchanges, which is one that has given me very great anxiety. I think we are making a definite step in the right direction by doing more of that selective work in connection with the qualifications of recipients for certain categories of jobs. The worst thing an Employment Exchange can do in filling jobs is to send an unsuitable man to an employer who asks for a specific type of man. It is the constant endeavour of the Exchanges to concentrate upon that, and I am glad to know that there is one hon. Member who was able to pay testimony to the efficiency of the Exchanges in regard to filling jobs, namely, the hon. Member for Willesden, East (Mr. D. G. Somerville), who said that from his personal experience he was satisfied that that is being actively attended to by the Exchange machine. There is a constant effort on the part of the Exchange officers to improve the efficiency of their service to industry as a whole. I plead with great earnestness that all Members who have any influence at all over the employers will beg them to use the Exchange machine as one of the quickest ways to put an end once and for all to any talk about misuse and malingering.

With regard to the question of Irish workers, I have some information to give the House. First of all as to those who come here from Ireland or Canada, there is no question raised about their admittance. They have no need for passports or anything of that sort, and they come in quite freely. With regard to the position of a man who goes to America and takes up American citizenship, when he comes back here he has to go through all the tests of any other American citizen. That is the present position of the law. In regard to Irish labour coming into this country, we recently made inquiries in Scotland 'at the Employment Exchanges in order to ascertain to what extent workers were registered for employment and claiming benefit in this country. The number was very small indeed. Similar inquiries were made as to the number of Irishmen who were obtaining employment on State-assisted relief schemes. Again, it was found that there was practically no foundation for complaints. There is at present no power to prevent Irishmen either from the North or South of Ireland coming into this country, but on present information there would be little justification for action in this direction.

There is no reason why a successful arrangement made this year by the Exchanges for sugar beet supplies should not be extended to other industries, and here again I come back to the same thing. I was able to get an agreement with the employers of labour for sugar beet to take from the Exchanges men required. It was a most successful experiment, and if employers in other industries would only notify the Exchanges local men would get the first chance of the work. That is, again, one of the justifications for making an appeal to the House to persuade employers to use the Exchanges rather than resort to the old, wretched method of expecting men to trip about the country from one place to another without knowing whether there is any security in the job offered. I think that I mentioned on the occasion of the Money Resolution what seemed to me to be a perfectly wicked practice—perhaps that is too strong a word—I would say a most hurtful practice, of employers inserting advertisements stating that a large number of men are wanted, but without saying how many. The result has been calamitous in the present situation of unemployment. There was a case of 1,000 men rushing from all over Lancashire and Cheshire because they saw an advertisement. If that firm had only worked through the Exchanges, the Exchanges would have discovered the type of man wanted, and they could have sent information round which would have collected the people needed without putting some hundreds of men to a perfectly unnecessary journey for a perfectly impossible situation. For these reasons, I think that employers can be asked to help by giving information to the Exchanges which will ensure their jobs being properly filled.

There was one other point which was raised by the hon. Member for Ilkeston (Mr. G. Oliver). He raised a number of points which, as he said, can properly be a matter of inquiry by the Commission, but I think one of the cases which he quoted seems to suggest that there is still a great misunderstanding with regard to the phrase used. The wording of the phrase was an improper one for any chairman of a court of referees to use. He said he used the word "my officer."

The only point I want to make clear is that the word "seeking" is used in a different sense from what it was in the old phrase. The correct phrase to use is "will normally seek to obtain his livelihood by means of insurable employment." I think that I have answered the points raised in the debate, and I ask the House to let me have the £10,000,000, knowing that to-morrow we must resume the debate on another aspect of the question, when I shall be prepared to give the House further information.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

The House divided: Ayes, 277; Noes, 182.

Division No. 56.]

AYES.

[11.0 p.m.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

Bromley, J.

Edwards, E. (Morpeth)

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Brooke, W.

Elmley, Viscount

Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

Brothers, M.

Foot, Isaac

Aitchison, Rt. Hon. Craigie M.

Brown, C. W. E. (Notts, Mansfield)

Forgan, Dr. Robert

Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro')

Brown, W. J. (Wolverhampton, West)

Freeman, Peter

Alpass, J. H.

Buchanan, G.

Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)

Ammon, Charles George

Burgess, F. G.

George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

Angell, Norman

Burgin, Dr. E. L.

George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea)

Arnott, John

Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland)

Gibbins, Joseph

Aske, Sir Robert

Caine, Derwent Hall.

Gibson, H. M. (Lancs, Mossley)

Attlee, Clement Richard

Cameron, A. G.

Gill, T. H.

Ayles, Walter

Cape, Thomas

Gillett, George M.

Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.)

Glassey, A. E.

Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley)

Charleton, H. C.

Gossling, A. G.

Barnes, Alfred John

Chater, Daniel

Gould, F.

Barr, James

Church, Major A. G.

Graham, Rt. Hon.Wm. (Edin.,Cent.)

Batey, Joseph

Clarke, J. S.

Granville, E.

Bellamy, Albert

Cluse, W. S.

Gray, Milner

Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood

Cocks, Frederick Seymour

Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne)

Bennett, Sir E. N. (Cardiff, Central)

Compton, Joseph

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Bennett, William (Battersea, South)

Cove, William G.

Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.)

Benson, G.

Cowan, D. M.

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Bentham, Dr. Ethel

Daggar, George

Groves, Thomas E.

Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale)

Dallas, George

Grundy, Thomas W.

Birkett, W. Norman

Dalton, Hugh

Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

Blindell, James

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret

Day, Harry

Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.)

Bowen, J. W.

Denman, Hon. R. D.

Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Dukes, C.

Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Zetland)

Broad, Francis Alfred

Duncan, Charles

Hardle, George D.

Brockway, A. Fenner

Ede, James Chuter

Harris, Percy A.

Bromfield, William

Edmunds, J. E.

Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

Hastings, Dr. Somerville

Mander, Geoffrey le M.

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Haycock, A. W.

Mansfield, W.

Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

Hayday, Arthur

March, S.

Sherwood, G. H.

Hayes, John Henry

Marcus, M.

Shield, George William

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

Markham, S. F.

Shiels, Dr. Drummond

Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow)

Marley, J.

Shillaker, J. F.

Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield)

Marshall, Fred

Shinwell, E.

Herriotts, J.

Mathers, George

Simmons, C. J.

Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth)

Matters, L. W.

Sinclair, Sir A. (Caithness)

Hoffman, P. C.

Maxton, James

Sinkinson, George

Hollins, A.

Messer, Fred

Sitch, Charles H.

Hopkin, Daniel

Middleton, G.

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield)

Milner, Major J.

Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)

Isaacs, George

Montague, Frederick

Smith, H. B. Lees. (Keighley)

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Morgan Dr. H. B.

Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

Johnston, Thomas

Morley, Ralph

Smith, Tom (Pontefract)

Jones, F. Llewellyn. (Flint)

Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South)

Smith, W. R. (Norwich)

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.)

Snell, Harry

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Mort, D. L.

Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W.

Moses, J. J. H.

Snowden, Thomas (Accrington)

Jowitt, Sir W. A. (Preston)

Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent)

Sorensen, R.

Kedward, R. M. (Kent, Ashford)

Mosley, Sir Oswald (Smethwick)

Stamford, Thomas W.

Kelly, W. T.

Muggeridge, H. T.

Stephen, Campbell

Kennedy, Thomas

Nathan, Major H. L.

Strachey, E. J. St. Loe

Kenworthy Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

Naylor, T. E.

Strauss, G. R.

Kinley, J.

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln)

Kirkwood, D.

Noel-Buxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N.)

Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S. W.)

Knight, Holford

Oldfield, J. R.

Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)

Lang, Gordon

Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston)

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley)

Tinker, John Joseph

Lathan, G.

Owen, H. F. (Hereford)

Toole, Joseph

Law, Albert (Bolton)

Paling, Wilfrid

Tout, W. J.

Law, A. (Rossendale)

Palmer, E. T.

Townend, A. E.

Lawrence, Susan

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Staiybridge)

Perry, S. F.

Vaughan, D. J.

Lawson, John James

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Viant, S. P.

Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle)

Phillips, Dr. Marion

Walkden, A. G.

Leach, W.

Picton-Turbervill, Edith

Walker, J.

Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.)

Pole, Major D. G.

Wallace, H. W.

Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern)

Potts, John S.

Wallhead, Richard C.

Lees, J.

Price, M. P.

Watkins, F. C.

Lewis, T. (Southampton)

Pybus, Percy John

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Lindley, Fred W.

Quibell, D. F. K.

Wellock, Wilfred

Lloyd, C. Ellis

Ramsay, T. B. Wilson

Welsh, James (Paisley)

Logan, David Gilbert

Rathbone, Eleanor

West, F. R.

Longbottom, A. W.

Raynes, W. R.

White, H. G.

Longden, F.

Richards, R.

Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)

Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Wilkinson, Ellen C.

Lowth, Thomas

Riley, Ben (Dewsbury)

Williams, David (Swansea, East)

Lunn, William

Romeril, H. G.

Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

Rosbotham, D. S. T.

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham)

Rothschild, J. de

Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

Rowson, Guy

Wilson, J. (Oldham)

McElwee, A.

Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

McEntee, V. L.

Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen)

Wise, E. F.

McGovern, J. (Glasgow, Shettleston)

Samuel, H. W. (Swansea, West)

Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff)

McKinlay, A.

Sanders, W. S.

Young, R. S. (Islington, North)

MacLaren, Andrew

Sandham, E.

Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

Sawyer, G. F.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. ——

MacNeill-Weir, L.

Scrymgeour, E.

Mr. William Whiteley and Mr. Thurtle.

McShane, John James

Scurr, John

Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

Sexton, James

NOES.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W.

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles

Boyce, H. L.

Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George

Albery, Irving James

Bracken, B.

Colman, N. C. D.

Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l., W.)

Brass, Captain Sir William

Colville, Major D. J.

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

Briscoe, Richard George

Courtauld, Major J. S.

Atholl, Duchess of

Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham)

Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

Baillie-Hamilton, Hon. Charles W.

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)

Cranborne, Viscount

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley)

Bullock, Captain Malcolm

Crichton-Stuart, Lord C.

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Butler, R. A.

Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet)

Butt, Sir Alfred

Crookshank, Capt. H. C.

Balniel, Lord

Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

Beaumont, M. W

Campbell, E. T.

Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon

Castle Stewart, Earl of

Dairymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey

Betterton, Sir Henry B.

Cautley, Sir Henry S.

Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

Bevan, S. J. (Holborn)

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Davies, E. C. (Montgomery)

Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman

Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert

Bird, Ernest Roy

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.)

Duckworth, G. A. V.

Boothby, R. J. G.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston)

Dugdale, Capt. T. L.

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Chapman, Sir S.

Eden, Captain Anthony

Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

Clydesdale, Marquess of

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Elliot, Major Walter E.

Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton)

Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart

Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.)

Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R

Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D.

Everard, W. Lindsay

Lewis, Oswald (Colchester)

Savery, S. S.

Falle, Sir Bertram G.

Little, Dr. E. Graham

Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome

Ferguson, Sir John

Llewellin, Major J. J.

Simms, Major-General J.

Fermoy, Lord

Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey

Skelton, A. N.

Fielden E. B.

Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

Ford, Sir P. J.

Lockwood, Captain J. H.

Smith-Carington, Neville W.

Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

Makins, Brigadier-General E.

Smithers, Waldron

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Margesson, Captain H. D.

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Ganzoni, Sir John

Marjoribanks, Edward

Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East)

Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

Meller, R. J.

Southby, Commander A. R. J.

Glyn, Major R. G. C.

Merriman, Sir F. Boyd

Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

Gower, Sir Robert

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland)

Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

Mitchell-Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W.

Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur

Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

Mond, Hon. Henry

Stewart, W. J. (Belfast South)

Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter

Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir O

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nalrn)

Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

Moore, Sir Newton J. (Richmond)

Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F.

Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A.

Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

Muirhead, A. J.

Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)

Gunston, Captain D. W.

Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

Thomson, Sir F.

Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

Tinne, J. A.

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W.G.(Ptrsf'ld)

Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

Hammersley, S. S.

Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

Todd, Capt. A. J.

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

O'Connor, T. J.

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

O'Neill, Sir H.

Turton, Robert Hugh

Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon

Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

Peake, Capt. Osbert

Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert

Herbert, Sir Dennis (Hertford)

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Wardlaw-Milne, J. S.

Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller

Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

Warrender, Sir Victor

Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

Power, Sir John Cecil

Waterhouse, Captain Charles

Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

Pownall, Sir Assheton

Wayland, Sir William A.

Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

Ramsbotham, H.

Wells, Sydney R.

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

Reid, David D. (County Down)

Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

Rentoul, Sir Gervais S.

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Hurst, Sir Gerald B.

Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R.

Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell

Womersley, W. J.

Iveagh, Countess of

Ross, Major Ronald D.

Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton

Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Kindersley, Major G. M.

Salmon, Major I.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. ——

Knox, Sir Alfred

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Sir George Penny and Captain Wallace.

Lamb, Sir J. Q.

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Bill read a Second time.

Bill committed to a Committee of the Whole House for To-morrow.—[ Miss Bondfield .]

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed .

Asylum Officers (Widows' Gratuities)

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn.—[ Mr. Parkinson .]

I want to raise a case under the Asylum Officers' Superannuation Act, 1909, and under the Local Authorities (Expenses) Act, 1887. Under the first Act a visiting committee of a mental hospital, with the consent of the hospital governors, can award a gratuity to an officer while in the service of the hospital subject to certain conditions. Under another Section an officer, if he loses his job, except through personal misconduct while in the service of the hospital, can get back the total sum paid during his service by way of superannuation. The Act of 1909 is admittedly defective in many ways, but the Minister of Health has a discretion under the Local Authorities (Expenses) Act. It is in connection with that discretion that I want to raise this matter to-night, because the discretion has not been exercised in the ease of one of my constituents. I want to ask the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Miss Lawrence) how she can differentiate. I will give her cases where discretion has been exercised and a case where it has not been exercised. I first give the ease of the widow of an employé of the Lancaster County Mental Hospital. She is in receipt of 15s. a week under the Contributory Pensions Act. She has a dependent child and one grown-up son earning over £3 a week, who pays her 25s. for board and lodging. There is another son, an apprentice, earning 12s. a week. In that case the visiting committee recommended, the local authority endorsed it, and the Minister rightly sanctioned a gratuity of £85 17s. 2d. Similarly in another case, even more deserving, the widow is in receipt of a pension of 10s. under the Contributory Pensions Act.; She has a daughter at home to look after her; she has two sons, one at work and the other earning a rather precarious livelihood, and in this case a gratuity of £51 7s. 11d. was granted.

I come to the case which is the occasion of my raising this matter. It is the case of Mrs. Hodgson, who lives in my constituency. Her husband died two years ago, while in the service of the Lancaster County Mental Hospital, aged nearly 60. For 13½ years he had been a permanent employé of the hospital, at a-salary of £128 per annum, and he contributed to the superannuation fund a total of £62. His widow is left with no means except a widow's pension of 10s. a week, and 5s. 5d. a week which she receives in respect of a son killed in the War. Out of this 15s. 5d. she pays 7s. 11d. rent, leaving her with 7s. 6d., plus 5s. a week which she gets by keeping lodgers, or 12s. 6d. a week on which to live, and she has nobody to look after her, and no relatives. The visiting committee in this case, with the consent of the local authority, sanctioned a gratuity of £100, but this woman's case, like the others, is technically not within the Asylums Officers Act to which I have referred, and therefore she cannot demand the gratuity as a right and the local authority cannot pay it unless the Minister exercises the discretion given under the other Act I have mentioned. In the two cases previously mentioned the gratuities were sanctioned; in this case, which is on all fours with them, that sanction has been refused by the Minister for some reason which is at present unaccountable to me. I wish to ask the Parliamentary Secretary, first, how she differentiates between these cases and, secondly, is it to go out to her constituency that she regards 12s. 6d. a week as sufficient for this woman to live on, bearing in mind that the woman's husband contributed £62 during his lifetime to the superannuation fund. Under Section 10 of the Act, if the husband had left his employment in failing health he would have been entitled to the return of all he had paid to the superannuation fund. But he died suddenly and not only does his widow get nothing back in respect of the superannuation payment but she is left destitute apart from the means I have mentioned. The Minister may say that, if there is any defect in the Act, it ought to be amended, but it is not up to us on this side of the House to amend it; it is up to the Minister to do so. If her further defence is that the superannuation question is complicated and requires investigation, may I point out that, as much as 18 months ago, I put a question on this subject, and have been putting questions ever since, and I have always been put off with the story that an investigation was proceeding? Therefore, I have given up all hope of achieving anything on those lines, and I now appeal to the Minister to exercise the discretion which she possesses in this case, which, in the opinion of the visiting committee and the local authority, is a deserving one.

The subject is one which is covered by certain Acts of Parliament, the provisions of which were introduced after agreement between employés and the local authorities. The schemes apply to persons who die under ordinary circumstances; people who belong to superannuation funds. I want to make it clear that the Acts which we have to administer exclude the case of gratuities to widows unless the person at the time of his death was entitled to a superannuation allowance or unless the superannuation scheme provided expressly a gratuity. That is the general law. The Minister has certain powers under certain Acts. It is clear that the 1887 Act gives the Minister power only to deal with exceptions. He could not under that Act override any of these Acts or make a grant by allowing something which is expressly excluded by ordinary law. This discretion of the Minister is a discretion which has to be exercised with considerable caution. The Minister has always taken the view that this right under the Act of 1887 is not to supersede the present law but to make allowances for extremely hard cases as the hon. Member has said, and it has often to be repeated that the question of superannuation is now under consideration. It is under very active and close consideration. The policy not of one Ministry but of several has been to place these Acts on a better actuarial foundation.

The actuaries are now, and have been for some months, making preliminary inquiries which I hope will result in better superannuation schemes. If it is the desire, as many people would desire, that widows should generally have gratuities, it must be done by an amendment of the existing law and not by a continual exercising of the Minister's discretionary powers. We hope that we Shall be able to see daylight in this question when we have in our possession the actuaries' report. As regards this poor woman, she was the widow of an official. She was in receipt of £l—10s., 5s. and 5s. derived from the rent of a house. The Minister, considering the very large number of cases of women left in a similar position, could not say that this case was any worse than the average. The lady is 56. She has no dependants. If we had admitted the case we might as well have made an alteration in the system. I am very sorry the law is as it is but, while it is as it is, the Minister cannot possibly alter it by a general exercise of his discretion. That is all I can say on the subject. I can only assure the hon. Member that this question, which is not an easy one, is receiving attention I want to point out how many Acts there are. There are no less than three Acts of Parliament, all on different bases, and I do not think that anyone would complain of the time which has elapsed while the actuarial investigation is being undertaken.

I would like to reinforce what has been said by my hon. Friend. May I remind the right hon. Lady that she has said that this has been under consideration for 18 months. It is admitted that this Act presses most hardly on asylum workers in general, and the excuse that it has been under consideration for that time is no particular help to those people who are suffering injustices under the Act. May I call the right hon. Lady's particular attention to the recommendation of the Select Committee in 1911. One of the first recommendations was that they did not agree that it was premature to amend the Act of 1909, as flaws and defects in the Act had already appeared, and Amendments suggested by more than one Government Department. That committee go on to say that they have already adopted an amendment, which had been suggested by the Home Office itself, giving power to a visiting committee to grant gratuities to the widows and orphans of attendants dying after some years' service. That particular Amendment, which was adopted by the commitee in 1911, would have entirely met the case of undoubted hardship which has been brought forward by my hon. Friend. I suggest to the hon. Lady that it will be an extraordinary thing if it is to go out from the Front Bench of a Socialist Government that £1 a week is sufficient for a widow of 56 to live upon and that it takes 18 months of consideration to amend an Act which presses most harshly and most unjustly upon deserving asylum workers, when there is in existence a recommendation by a Select Committee—nothing to do with private Members—which has suggested an Amendment which would have removed the very anomaly complained of by my hon. Friend.

Question put, and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-eight Minutes after Eleven o'clock.