House of Commons
Monday, December 15, 1930
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
Private Business
London County Council (Improvements) Bill [ Lords ].
As amended, considered.
Ordered, That Standing Orders 240 and 262 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the Third time.—[ The Chairman of Ways and Means .]
Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments.
Oral Answers to Questions
India
Lloyd Quay, Karachi (Opening Ceremony)
asked the Secretary of State for India whether he has yet received a reply to his inquiry with regard to the censorship of cables from Karachi and the inactivity of the police on the occasion of the opening of the Lloyd quay; and what action he has taken with regard to the matter?
I have received a telegram on this subject only this morning, and I should be obliged if the hon. and gallant Gentleman would postpone his question until to-morrow.
I will put it down for Wednesday.
Air Services (Karachi—Calcutta)
asked the Secretary of State for India whether any decision has been come to by the Government of India with regard to the inauguration of an air service from Karachi via Jodhpur, Delhi, and Allahabad to Calcutta with Government aeroplanes?
I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander) on 11th December. I expect to receive a report from the Government of India shortly after Christmas.
Salt Industry
asked the Secretary of State for India whether any action has been taken or is contemplated by the Government of India in view of the recommendations of the Indian tariff board and also of the recent salt conference that immediate relief should be given to the indigenous salt industry?
The matter is still under the consideration of the Government of India.
Swedish Match Trust
asked the Secretary of State for India whether any developments have taken place in the matter of the recommendation made by the Indian Tariff Board in regard to the desirability of the Indian branch of the Swedish Match Trust being registered as an Indian company under the control of a local directorate?
During last year the Swedish Match Company was registered as the Western India Match Company with rupee capital and Indian directors.
Outrages
asked the Secretary of State for India whether, in view of the repeated murders of officials and police officers in India, any special steps are being taken to prevent these outrages in the future?
This is a matter for the authorities in India. I need hardly add that any precautions necessary to guard against outrages of this character will have my fullest support.
The right hon. Gentleman does not mean to suggest that we in this House are not taking an interest in the matter?
Restrictive Ordinances
asked the Secretary of State for India whether he is prepared to take steps to secure the withdrawal of the Ordinances now in operation in India limiting the rights of meetings, speech, the Press, picketing and organisation?
At the present moment three of the Ordinances in question are no longer in force. Future action in respect of special powers must depend upon the circumstances existing at the time.
Is it not a fact that the vast majority of the 50,000 political offenders in Indian prisons in India have come under these Ordinances, and could not the right hon. Gentleman resort to the normal law and reduce the number?
I should be very glad if it were possible to resort to the normal law, but I cannot necessarily accept the hon. Member's statement.
Will it be possible, to make a public statement in the near future?
I do not think I can go beyond the answer I have given, that it must depend on the circumstances existing. I shall be happy to give the House any information at any time the House is sitting.
Arrests and Sentences (Youths)
asked the Secretary of State for India whether he has now received a report regarding the arrests and sentences of youths under 21 years of age for political offences in India; and what is the lowest age of boys so arrested and sentenced?
No, Sir. The report which I called for has not yet been received.
Will the right hon. Gentleman let me have the information when it reaches his hands, as he denied the statement I made on the matter.
I did the hon. Member less than justice in the statement I made. I will let him have a statement.
Press Privileges (Mr. M. Rao, Delhi)
asked the Secretary of State for India whether the Government of India has yet decided, in pursuance of a warning given to Mr. Madhara Rao, the Delhi correspondent of the "Morning Post," to cancel his Press privileges; and whether, if so, he can state the reason for such procedure?
The answer to the first part of the hon. Member's question is "No."
What is the nature of the censorship which has been exercised in this matter? Under what powers of the Government of India does it arise?
The question appears hardly relevant to the one on the Paper. May I remind the hon. Member of the circumstances of the case. A statement appeared in the "Morning Post" referring to what was alleged to be an official telegram. The first fact to remember is that there was no such telegram in existence; secondly, that the statement was mischievous; and, further, that the editor of the "Morning Post" took no steps to take any advantage of the facilities we offered to check the accuracy of the statement.
:Is my right hon. Friend aware that this is the first time in history that the "Morning Post" has been treated m this way?
Liquor Boycott
asked the Secretary of State for India whether he has any information as to the decrease in number or cost of licences or consumption of alcoholic liquors in India since the liquor boycott was started?
No, Sir, but, if my hon. Friend so desires, I will ask the Government of India whether they are able to furnish any information.
Has there been any substantial decrease in alcoholic consumption?
I cannot say without inquiry.
Afridis
asked the Secretary of State for India whether punitive operations are in progress against, the Afridis; and whether the winter grazing grounds of the Afridis or other tribes are still in military occupation by British or British-Indian forces?
No punitive operations are in progress. The protective measures which are being taken are described in the communiqué published on 13th October, of which I will send my hon. and gallant Friend a copy.
:Are we to understand that these measures are not intended to deprive these tribes of their winter grazing grounds?
The measures are protective, as stated in the communiqué.
When did the last punitive measures take place?
I must leave that to my hon. Friend's research.
Disarmament
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he proposes to make a statement on the proceedings of the Preparatory Disarmament Commission before the Christmas Recess?
I understand that this question may be raised on the Motion for the Adjournment on Friday, in which case I hope to make a statement.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the importance of the subject, he will circulate as a Command Paper a copy of the report of the Disarmament Committee of the League of Nations?
A White Paper, which will include the report of the Preparatory Commission and a copy of the Draft Disarmament Convention, is now being prepared and will be issued as soon as possible.
China
Murder of British Missionaries
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affiairs whether he has received any communication from the Chinese Government as to the capture of the murderers of the two British lady missionaries?
No further information has been received since my reply to the right hon. Gentleman on 19th November. But I have instructed His Majesty's Minister in China to renew his representations on this subject, and am at present awaiting his reply.
British Subjects
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what steps are being taken to prevent British subjects who have been extricated from positions of danger in China from returning to the danger areas until conditions are more settled?
I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the reply returned to the hon. Member for Newcastle, North (Sir N. Grattan-Doyle) on the 10th of December. The attention of British subjects has been drawn to the peril of returning to dangerous areas, but no compulsory measures can be taken to prevent British subjects exercising their free will in the matter.
British Passports
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the loss of life involved in carrying out rescues of persons captured by Chinese brigands, he will instruct his Department, in the present circumstances, not to issue passports to persons whose declared intention is to proceed to China to take up work or residence inland?
No British lives have been lost in the circumstances mentioned, and I have no knowledge of any others being lost. With regard to the issue of passports, I am obtaining the views of His Majesty's Minister in China as to the practicability of the hon. Member's suggestion.
Russia
Public Prosecutor's Comments (British Protest)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he proposes to take any further steps concerning the protest he recently made to the Soviet Government arising out of the recent trial of Russian professors and others in Moscow?
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he intends to take any further action in connection with the recent reply by the Soviet Commissar for Foreign Affairs on the subject of the trial in Moscow?
His Majesty's Ambassador at Moscow, on my instructions, pointed out that the reply of the Soviet Government, which I read to the House on the 8th of December, failed to deal with the point that the comments of their Public Prosecutor appeared in the indictment as the official view of the part played by His Majesty's Government in the alleged intervention conspiracy, and that the Soviet Government could not refuse responsibility for these comments. To this communication the Soviet Commissar for Foreign Affairs replied as follows:
"The accusation in court was directed against the eight accused who in their statements referred to the possible participation of British circles in intervention. The Public Prosecutor could not ignore these statements and took action on them in his commentaries. The Government does not in such circumstances give instructions to the Public Prosecutor, and could not thus, in the case in question, demand that he should ignore investigatory materials, of whatever nature they might be. It is the business of the Court to investigate these materials, to establish their credibility and give its decision. This decision has now been given. I can add nothing more to this."
I have instructed His Majesty's Ambassador to express to the Commissar the dissatisfaction felt by His Majesty's Government at the attitude of the Soviet Government in this matter.
Has the right hon. Gentleman received a copy of the judgment of the Court, and, if not, will he procure and consider whether that judgment does not give occasion for further representations?
I will look into the matter. I do not know whether the judgment has yet reached the Department.
Will the right hon. Gentleman instruct His Majesty's Ambassador to send him a copy of the judgment?
That is what I intended to convey.
Labour Conditions
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he hopes to furnish the House with the White Paper on Soviet Russian labour conditions before the House adjourns for the Christmas Recess?
The work of selection, collation and in some cases translation, of the relevant Soviet laws, necessitates consultation with His Majesty's Ambassador in Moscow, and I can say no more than that every endeavour is being made to secure the publication of the White Paper as early as possible.
Trials (British Interests)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any representative of His Majesty's Government in the Union of Socialist Soviet Republics is specially instructed to watch British interests at State and other trials in the courts of that country; and, if not, whether suitable instructions will be given?
One of the duties of His Majesty's Ambassador at Moscow is to watch British interests whether in the courts or elsewhere, and no special instructions to that effect are necessary. I may add that the Embassy had a representative in court each day during the recent State trial.
British Embassy, Moscow (Military Attaché)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs for what reason the Government have not appointed a military attaché at Moscow on the resumption of diplomatic relations with the Russian Soviet Government, having regard to the fact that that Government maintains the largest standing army of any great Power?
His Majesty's Government, after reviewing all the circumstances, decided not to make such an appointment.
Why is this differentiation made in the case of Soviet Russia as compared with other great Powers who have appointed military attachés?
I am afraid it would not be in the public interest for me to say more.
Do all the other great Powers appoint military attachés
Some of them do and some do not. There is no strict uniformity followed in the matter.
In 1924, when the party opposite was in office, was there not a military attaché at Moscow?
We may have improved in the meantime.
Will the right hon. Gentleman place in the Library or publish in a White Paper the names of the Powers which have military attachés at Petrograd?
If the Noble Lord will put down a question, I have no objection to giving him the names.
Broadcasting
asked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether the organisation of wireless broadcasting is under Government control in the Soviet republic?
My right hon. Friend, the Foreign Secretary, has asked His Majesty's Ambassador at Moscow for a report on this subject.
Naval and Military Pensions and Grants
Mental Institutions (Male Nursing Staff)
asked the Minister of Pensions the number of the male nursing staff employed in the institutions under his control dealing in cases of mental and severe nervous disorder who have not the qualifications of a certificate for dealing with such cases?
In the unavoidable absence of my right hon. Friend, the Minister of Pensions, I have been asked to reply. There are some 165 orderlies employed in the institutions under the control of the Department which provide treatment for mental and severe nervous affections. Of these 33 are in possession of a certificate. The bulk of the remainder have, however, had 10 years' experience and upwards in mental institutions. It may be pointed out that a majority of the patients in the institutions referred to are not certified cases.
Can my hon. Friend say how many institutions are receiving these unfortunate people, and whether the whole of them are under the direct control of the Minister of Pensions?
I think that my hon. Friend had better put down a question upon that matter.
Final Awards
asked the Minister of Pensions the number of final awards in which an increased award under special sanction was issued during the period 1st October, 1929, to 30th September, 1930?
The number is about 2,400.
Seven Years' Limit
asked the Minister of Pensions the total number of claims submitted outside the seven years' limit up to 30th November, 1930, since his announcement in regard to this matter in November, 1929; how many of these applications have been considered and dealt with; and how many of them have received favourable consideration?
Some 20,300 fresh claims have been submitted during the period referred to, of which rather more than 18,000 have been considered. In 982 cases the claims have been recognised either by way of medical or surgical treatment, or by some form of pecuniary compensation.
Disputed Cases
asked the Minister of Pensions in how many disputed cases there has been reference to an independent medical authority, in accordance with the new arrangements made since he took office?
The number of such cases up to the end of last month was 251.
The names of the chief medical advisers to the Ministry of Pensions, their salaries and dates of appointment are: Name. Rank. Salary or Scale. Date of Appointment £ Col. Sir A. Lisle A. Webb, K.B.E., C.B., C.M.G. Director General of Medical Services. 1,800 * 30th January, 1919. Lt. Col. A. B. Ward, C.B.E., D.S.O. Deputy Director General of Medical Services. 1,600 * 9th October, 1919. Dr. J. H. Hebb, C.B.E Director of Medical Services. 1,200 22nd April, 1919. Dr. J. Wallace, O.B.E., T.D. Principal Medical Officer. 1,200 14th September, 1917. Dr. S. Brown, M.B.E Principal Medical Officer. 900–1,100 1st July, 1919. Dr. E. L. Forward Principal Medical Officer. 9th October, 1920. Dr. W. Haward Principal Medical Officer. 13th September, 1919. Dr. A. E. Knight, D.S.O., M.C. Principal Medical Officer. 1st June, 1919. Lt.-Col. H. Lightstone, D.S O., M.C. Principal Medical Officer. 28th October, 1919. Dr. J. C. McKenzie Principal Medical Officer. 21st January, 1920. Lt.-Col. A. W. Moore, O.B.E. Principal Medical Officer. 9th June, 1919. Dr. C. R. Nicholson Principal Medical Officer. 9th February, 1920. Dr. R. S. Oldham Principal Medical Officer. 1st November, 1919. Dr. H. G. Pesel, M.C. Principal Medical Officer. 10th September, 1919. Dr. J. F. E. Prideaux Principal Medical Officer. 19th September, 1921. Dr. A Sandison, O.B.E Principal Medical Officer. 19th September, 1919. Dr. C. R. Stewart, O.B.E. Principal Medical Officer. 8th February, 1918. Dr. O. H. Woodcock Principal Medical Officer. 13th May, 1919. Dr. H. D. Wyatt Principal Medical Officer. 11th November, 1919. * Inclusive of cost of living bonus. Inclusive of cost of living bonus.
The names of the whole-time medical officers in the Glasgow Area, their salaries and dates of appointment are: Name. Rank. Salary or Scale. Date of Appointment £ Col. H. Richardson, D.S.O. … … Principal Medical Officer. 1,100 3rd September, 1919. Dr. J. S. Ross … … Medical Officer 850 1st March, 1920. Dr. W. L. Lyall … … Medical Officer 940 * 16th January, 1920. * Inclusive of cost of living bonus. Inclusive of cost of living bonus.
Government Departments
Ministry of Pensions
asked the Minister of Pensions the names of his chief medical advisers at the Ministry of Pensions, of the chief medical advisers at the area office in Glasgow, and in both cases the date of appointment of such advisers and their rate of salary?
As the answer involves some detail, I propose, with the hon. Member's permission, to circulate the information in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the answer:
Admiralty
asked the First Commissioner of Works the number of staff at the Admiralty, exclusive of office-keepers, cleaners, charwomen, messengers, stokers, electricians, and window cleaners; the number of rooms in the building; and the approximate number of additional clerical and administrative staff that could be accommodated in these offices by closer settlement without injury to health?
The answer to the first part of the question is 2,101; the number of rooms in the building, excluding those used for storage of records, is 584. In regard to the last part of the question, it is not possible to accommodate any additional staff in these offices without injury to health and detriment to the work of the Department concerned.
How many of these rooms are below the street level and how many of the staff are employed in these rooms?
I require notice of that question.
New Offices, Whitehall (Architect)
asked the First Commissioner of Works the name of the architect of the new Government buildings in Whitehall?
I would refer the hon. Member to my reply of the 12th November to the hon. and gallant Member for the Isle of Thanet (Captain Balfour).
Did the reply mentioned give the information that it was to be open to the competition of the best brains in the architectural profession?
The answer was that it was then too soon to decide the method.
Will the First Commissioner take into his serious consideration the question that I have raised?
It need not be taken into any further consideration. It has been decided that the design will be open to competition, but the exact form of competition has not been decided.
When will the First Commissioner be able to give an answer?
A Bill has to go through the House, but no one knows how soon or how late that will be.
Trade and Commerce
British Industries Fair
asked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether, in view of the recommendation of the Chelmsford Committee, he will arrange that the London section of the British Industries Fair should be open to the public upon the whole of the Saturday of the second week of the 1931 Fair?
I am afraid it is not possible to adopt this suggestion at the 1931 Fair, as the contracts already concluded with exhibitors and others provide for the closing of the Fair on the Friday of the second week.
asked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department the period of years covered by the contract entered into by his Department with the owners of Olympia in connection with the holding of the British Industries Fair in that building?
The contract is for a period of 10 years beginning with the Fair of 1930.
Far East (Economic Mission)
asked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department by what route the members of the economic mission to the Far East are travelling, whether this was the route originally chosen, and, if not, why has an alteration been made; what allowances are being made to the members for travelling, maintenance, and equipment; and what is the estimated cost of the commission?
The mission travelled east via Suez. It was intended that they should return by the same route, but on the representations of the leader of the mission it has been decided that they should return via Canada. The actual travelling expenses of the members of the mission will be refunded to them, and in addition each member is entitled to subsistence allowance at the daily rate of £2, except for periods spent on board ship when the rate is 7s. 6d. An equipment allowance of £50 has been issued to certain members. The total cost of the mission is estimated at £16,000, towards which a contribution of £6,000 has been made from the Cotton Trade Memorial Fund.
Can the hon. Gentleman say whether the alteration of the route has anything to do with the general elections in Canada?
No, Sir, not that I am aware of. It was done entirely at the request of the members of the mission.
Russia
asked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether he has now decided to despatch an economic mission to Soviet Russia?
The answer is in the negative.
What is the difficulty? Why cannot we send an economic mission? If we cannot have a military attaché, why not have an economic mission?
There is nothing to prevent us from sending an economic mission at the present time, but it does not seem to me that anything will be gained by so doing.
Will my hon. Friend invite the right hon. Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood) to go on such a mission?
War Material (Russia)
asked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether in any cases Government credit has been used to guarantee payment of orders of war material by the Union of Socialist Soviet Republics?
No, Sir. Munitions of war are excluded by Statute from the scope of the Export Credits Guarantee Scheme.
Are we to understand that the tanks recently sent to Russia were paid for in cash?
Perhaps the hon. and gallant Member will give me notice of that question.
Export Credits
asked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department the total liability incurred by the present Government under the Export Credits Scheme in financing, firstly, orders from the Union of Socialist Soviet Republics, and, secondly, orders from all other countries, and the date in each case when this liability expires?
From the 10th June, 1929, to the 6th December last the Export Credits Guarantee Department had contracted to guarantee a proportion of credits amounting to £4,904,355 in respect of exports to Russia and £5,921,209 in respect of exports to all other countries. Its maximum liability under these contracts amounted to £2,942,913 and £3,728,360, respectively. With regard to the last part of the hon. Member's question I do not consider it advisable to give information of this kind.
Can my hon. Friend say if there have been any cases of default with regard to any of the guarantees to Russia?
No, Sir.
Can the hon. Gentleman say what is the reason for the disproportion between the volume of credit allowed to all other countries and the volume of credit given to Soviet Russia?
The right hon. Gentleman must bear in mind that the more satisfactory are the trade conditions of a country, the less people are inclined to insure. Therefore, the countries which are concerned with this Department are chiefly those where the exporter is doubtful where he stands.
Am I right in assuming that the greater the credits allowed for trade to Russia the more risky that trade is?
No, Sir, that does not follow, because attention has also to be paid to the size of the country and to the amount of their needs and the volume of their trade.
In view of the fact that the legislation under which these transactions are carried out authorised a total liability of £25,000,000 as against the £10,500,000 referred to in the reply, may I ask what steps it is proposed to take to spend the balance?
The question of extending the volume of trade guaranteed by the Export Credits Department is always receiving the attention of my Department, but I have no special suggestion to make.
Can my hon. Friend tell us why there is so much greater percentage of liability in respect of the loans to other countries than in respect of the loans to Russia?
Perhaps my hon. Friend will give me notice of that question.
Can the hon. Gentleman say whether, in any case, the liability of His Majesty's Government exceeds 12 months on any of those contracts?
No, Sir. As I stated in my answer, that is just the point upon which I think it is inadvisable that information should be given.
Imported Goods (Labour Conditions)
The following question stood upon the Order Paper in the name of Commander BELLAIRS:
43. To ask the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether, in view of the fact that in general trade, mines and transport, orders are given to foreign countries in ignorance of the labour conditions under which the goods are produced being far below British standard, he will instruct the different Departments to assist the Empire Marketing Board to take steps to make known these labour conditions to all importers so as to promote the buying of British goods?
This question was originally put down to the Prime Minister, and I should have worded it differently if I had been aware that it was going to be addressed to the hon. Member.
While I am in full sympathy with the objects which the hon. and gallant Member has in mind, my Department would have no power to take action on the lines indicated.
Will the hon. Member represent to the Prime Minister the desirability of asking the Departments to acquaint the different importers of the conditions, for instance, under which imports from Russia are manufactured?
I will consider that point.
Is my hon. Friend aware that the British housewife is responding to the appeal—[ Interruption ].
Shipbuilding Industry, Scotland
asked the President of the Board of Trade the numbers and names of shipyards in Scotland which have up to the present been closed down in connection with rationalisation of the industry; and whether any provision and, if so, what is being made for the workers who thus lose their employment?
Three shipyards on the Clyde have been acquired by National Shipbuilders Security, Limited, the company formed for the purpose of eliminating redundant capacity in the shipbuilding industry. The shipyards are the naval shipbuilding yard of Messrs. Wm. Beardmore and Company, at Dalmuir, that of Messrs. Napier and Miller, Limited, Old Kilpatrick, near Glasgow, and the South Yard of the Ardrossan Dockyard, Limited, Ardrossan, Ayrshire. As regards the second part of the question, it is hoped that, as a result of the measures which are being taken to concentrate production and so reduce costs, this country will secure a larger share in the world's shipbuilding orders, and so more employment, than would otherwise have been possible.
Have the Government come to any decision yet on the point indicated by the President of the Board of Trade the other day, as to how they are to divert new industries into those yards which have been bought up by the National Shipbuilders Security, Limited?
I think that such diversion is entirely a matter for the shipbuilding companies themselves. I do not think that it is a matter which the Government have any power to control.
Does the hon. Gentleman intend to take any action to prevent this company doing what has been done in connection with other yards, thus rendering certain districts derelict and almost hopeless?
I do not think that the Government have any power to intervene.
Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that the President of the Board of Trade stated in this House about three weeks ago that he was prepared to act as liaison officer between the National Shipbuilders Security, Limited, and new industries so as to help in the diversion of new industries to the yards of which these other companies are being dispossessed?
Of course, as far as it is possible for them to assist in this matter, the department are prepared to do their best, but they have no power to intervene.
Iron and Steel Industry
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he can make any statement with regard to reorganisation proceeding in the iron and steel industry?
Proposals for the regrouping of productive units in the various sections of the iron and steel industry are under discussion. It will be appreciated that to disclose the nature of these proposals would prejudice the position of the firms concerned and bring the negotiations to a standstill.
Is the hon. Gentleman going to do something for the men who have to work in these industries?
Agriculture
Wages and Wheat Prices
asked the Minister of Agriculture the average wages paid to agricultural labourers in 1925 and in 1929 and the average price for wheat during those years; and whether, since the end of 1929, there has been any substantial fall in the average wage or in the average price of wheat?
No comparable statistics are available of the actual wages paid to agricultural workers in the years in question. The average minimum weekly rates fixed under the Agricultural Wages (Regulation) Act for the counties of England and Wales for adult male agricultural workers was 31s. 5d. in 1925 and 31s. 8d. throughout 1929. Such variations as have taken place in the minimum weekly wages since the end of 1929 have made no appreciable change in the average. The average prices of British wheat in England and Wales during 1925 and 1929 were 12s. 2d. and 9s. 10d. per cwt. respectively. The average price ascertained for the week ended 13th December, 1930, was 6s. 2d. per cwt. compared with 9s. 6d. per cwt. in the last week in 1929.
Does the right hon. Gentleman propose to introduce any further legislation to enable wheat growers to continue to pay that rate of wages?
I do not think that arises out of the question.
Bovine Tuberculosis (Spahlinger Vaccine)
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether his attention has been called to the tests by an expert and impartial committee in Norfolk of the Spahlinger vaccine as a preventive against bovine tuberculosis; and whether his Department is making further inquiries?
Captain Richard Buxton has been good enough to present me with a summary of the report of the interesting experiments with M. Spahlinger's vaccine which have been carried out on his farm in Norfolk. I have suggested to him in the interest of all concerned in the problem that he should arrange for a complete test to be made by and under the independent control of recognised authorities who are experienced in research in this disease.
May we take it that the former difficulty does not now exist?
I do not know to what difficulty the hon. Member refers. So far as I am concerned, we are anxious that it should be properly tested.
Is the right hon. Gentleman in touch with the Medical Research Council and the Privy Council, who are the bodies responsible for these researches?
I must ask for notice of that question.
Prosecution, Badminton
asked the Minister of Agriculture if he is aware that in a recent prosecution by him under the Agricultural Wages Regulation Act, in respect to an under payment to a worker named Albert Witchard, Hawkesbury, Upton, Badminton, Gloucestershire, the magistrates used their discretion and ordered only six months' arrears to be paid although such magistrates have power to award arreas if due up to two years; and, seeing that the workman immediately following the prosecution was dismissed by his employer and that arrears have been due to the workman from 26th September, 1926, to 11th October, 1930, if he is prepared to commence civil proceedings under the Act to recover the remaining 18 months' arrears?
I have already given very careful consideration to this case. Having regard to the fact that in the prosecution which was instituted by the Ministry the magistrates considered the case as a whole, it is not one in which the Ministry would be well advised to initiate civil proceedings.
Is the Minister aware that from September, 1926, to February, 1930, the individual whose name is attached to my question was paid 8s. per week less from his wages and that when the case went to the court the court decided that it was three months or six months?
I am aware of the facts of the case, I am sorry to say, and it was on account of all the facts that we prosecuted, but I cannot decide the considerations which came before the court. I am advised that as the court decided on the facts of the case the Ministry can take no further proceedings.
Can the right hon. Gentleman give any assistance to the individual who is suffering as a result of this court case?
I am willing to consider any suggestion that the hon. Member may submit.
Can the right hon. Gentleman appeal against the decision?
I am advised that I cannot.
Cider (National Mark)
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he will consider the extension of the use of the national mark for the benefit of bottlers of cider of less than 3,000 gallons per annum and irrespective of the quantity bottled?
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether, in view of the complaints he has received from cider bottlers in the Eastern Counties who fear that under Clause 4 of the Agricultural Produce (Grading and Marking) Act, 1928, which limits the use of the national mark to bottlers of 3,000 gallons and more per annum, national-mark cider will become a monopoly of the large manufacturers; and whether he will take steps to reduce the qualifying number of gallons by half or to give whatever satisfaction he can to this numerous class of small-scale cider bottlers?
I have received representations from one association of bottlers in the Eastern Counties and am taking steps to consult the National Mark Cider Trade Committee with a view to ascertaining whether some reduction of the output qualification proposed for bottlers is administratively practicable.
Land Drainage (Catchment Boards)
asked the Minister of Agriculture how many catchment boards have now been set up; and how many remain to be set up under the Land Drainage Act of 1930?
The total number of catchment boards to be set up is 47, of which two are constituted by the Act. In one of these cases the first meeting has already been held. In 16 other cases the Order constituting the board has been made and the map sealed, but the summoning of the first meeting of the board awaits the appointment of the members, which is being rapidly completed. The first meeting has been actually fixed in two of these 16 cases. In 14 other cases the draft Order and map is not yet ready.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say which are the two that he first mentioned that are already constituted?
I should be glad to inform the hon. Member, but I have not the information by me at the moment.
Once the catchment boards are settled, will the right hon. Gentleman issue a White Paper giving all the particulars?
Certainly.
asked the Minister of Agriculture what action he is taking in the solution of the difficulties caused by the geographical boundary of the catchment area boards as regards the assessment of drainage rates?
The responsibility of supplying the catchment boards with totals of rateable values rests with county and county borough councils, and in order to facilitate this work, arrangements are being made by my Department for sheets of the ordnance survey map on the 6-inch scale, with the boundary of the catchment area shown thereon, to be available to such authorities as may require them.
Questions
Economic Advisory Council
asked the Prime Minister how many meetings have been held by the Economic Advisory Council?
There have been 10 meetings of the Economic Advisory Council, in addition to a large number of meetings held by its committees.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the question of unemployment insurance has been discussed by it?
As I was not present, I am afraid that I cannot give a reply.
But, seeing that this is the thinking brain of the Government—
There is nothing about that in the question or answer.
Electoral Reform Bill
asked the Prime Minister when it is his intention to proceed with the Electoral Reform Bill?
The Bill will be introduced before we rise for Christmas, but I cannot say at present when the text will be available.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say who thought of this Bill first? Was it the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George)?
I am quite certain that it was not the right hon. Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood).
Can the right hon. Gentleman say why it is intended to proceed with the Bill?
Is this the Expiring Government Continuance Bill?
Post Office
Telephone Service
asked the Postmaster-General whether he has any statistics and can state the number of personal calls that have been made on the inland and trunk and toll routes for the 12 months ended to the last convenient date; and whether these personal call services have now been completed throughout the Anglo-Continental telephone services?
During the first year's operation there were 513,724 personal calls in connection with the inland trunk service and 55,896 in connection with the Anglo-Continental services. Personal call facilities are available on all the Anglo-Continental telephone services except that to Switzerland.
Does the hon. Gentleman think that if the charges on the Anglo-Continental service were reduced there would be very considerable more calls?
I do not think so.
asked the Postmaster-General the number of public telephones installed in the south-west Lancashire area during each of the last four years ended 31st October, 1930; how many are available for use night and day and the average cost of installation; and whether his Department are contemplating further installations in the villages not yet provided for?
As the answer contains a number of figures, I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the answer:
I understand that my hon. Friend has in mind the neighbourhood of Wigan, and the following information relates to telephone call offices within 10 mles from that town.
Year ending Number of public call offices installed. Available day and night. Others. Total. 31st October, 1927 36 4 40 31st October, 1928 28 3 31 31st October, 1929 27 14 41 31st October, 1930 10 6 16
Six further call offices are in course of provision while several others are under consideration. I regret that the figures of cost of installation are not readily available and considerable labour would be necessary to prepare the information.
asked the Postmaster-General why such a large estimated expediture as £100,000 is involved in order to insert the telephone number in front of the charge for a trunk call or phonogram, having regard to the fact that the amount charged cannot be ascertained without reference to the number in question, of which particulars are kept by the Post Office in case inquiries may be made?
The estimate of £100,000 is based on the ascertained extra cost of the work involved in the preparation of the accounts of subscribers who pay for details to be shown on their accounts. The sum of £100,000 must be considered in relation to the very large number of items concerned—namely £128,000,000.
Is the Postmaster-General aware that all the public desire in this matter is that the telephone number should be placed in front of the charge for a trunk call or phonogram? Surely that is not an unreasonable request seeing that the Post Office have the account before them?
I have explained to the hon. Member that it would cost £100,000 a year.
asked the Postmaster-General how many rural areas have been set up with a minimum of eight subscribers; and how far does he consider this would be increased if the number were reduced to six?
Since the scheme was initiated in 1922, 1,550 rural telephone exchanges with a minimum of eight subscribers have been opened. I cannot say how far this number would have been increased if the minimum number of subscribers had been reduced to six.
Will the hon. Gentleman reconsider the matter of these automatic rural exchanges and the reduction of the qualification to six subscribers, inasmuch as considerable dissatisfaction exists at present?
Only two weeks ago I announced a large concession, involving considerable sums of money, to this particular class of subscriber. I really must stop for a moment spending further money in this way.
Air-Mail Stamps
asked the Postmaster-General whether, in view of the fact that some parts of the British Empire are using air-mail stamps, he will reconsider his decision and issue special stamps for this service in Great Britain?
The blue air-mail labels issued free of charge are more suitable for the purpose of distinguishing air-mail letters, and I am not prepared to authorise the issue of special postage stamps.
Stamp Books (Advertisements)
asked the Postmaster-General, with regard to foreign products advertised in books of postage stamps, how much income is derived from this source; and what proportion this is of the total income obtained from the advertisements in the book?
I am unable to disclose the figures of income derived from advertisements in the books of stamps; but a relatively small percentage of the total income is derived from advertisements of foreign products.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that Danish bacon is being advertised in these stamp books to the detriment of the British agricultural industry?
The policy on this subject was laid down by the late Administration.
Will the hon. Gentleman give preferential consideration, to the Empire Marketing Board advertisements, so that orders may be kept in this country?
Is it not a good thing to tax the foreigner in this way?
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that Russian Oil Products have one of their main advertisements in these books?
asked the Postmaster-General whether his attention has been called to the fact that advertisements for Hall's Wine are contained in books of stamps sold at post offices; whether, in view of the fact that this wine contains a large percentage of alcohol and can only be retailed by those holding a licence, and that it is without medicinal value because the small quantity of meat juice that it contains is rendered inert by the action of the alcohol in it, he will take steps to see that such advertisements are no longer accepted?
On a point of Order. Is it in order to use the Order Paper to give a lot of information about the merits of a particular wine? For instance, would it be in order to discuss whether Beecham's Pills are worth a guinea a box?
Sometimes it is necessary for an hon. Member to put a long question in order to make clear what it means. I rather deprecate very long questions.
In accordance with the Government's general decision, no advertisement of alcoholic liquor is now accepted for inclusion in Post Office books of stamps, and this decision applies to advertisements of Hall's Wine. Any such advertisements appearing in stamp books now on sale represent issues printed before the decision took effect.
Is the Postmaster-General going to continue the advertisements for Russia—
When was the decision reached to which the hon. Gentleman referred?
About two or three months ago. Of course, it did not apply to contracts for advertisements which still had to run, perhaps for several months. These advertisements have now run out. My hon. Friend's book of stamps must be at least 10 weeks old.
Is the Postmaster-General aware that the principal advertisements in the books concern deaf ears?
Is there any medicinal value in meat juice with or without being further poisoned by alcohol?
Parcels Deposits (Dominions)
asked the Postmaster-General if he is aware of the fact that in forwarding parcels to the Dominions the sender has to deposit 1s. for every 3s. of the value for customs charges, whereas if sent to a foreign country the required deposit is only 1s. for every 5s. for such duties; and will he give this matter his careful consideration?
A deposit is required only from persons posting parcels for abroad who desire to have their parcels delivered free of all customs and other charges ordinarily payable by the addressees. The amount of the deposit has been fixed to cover approximately the total charges which are generally levied in the various countries of destination on such goods as can be transmitted by parcel post. The total amount ultimately payable by the sender is of course not affected by the amount of the deposit.
Writing Assistants and Women Clerks
asked the Postmaster-General in how many cases writing assistants have been substituted for women clerical officers in the Accountant General's Department of the Post Office during the last three years?
There has been no actual substitution, but 32 writing assistants now perform by machines operations which in a different form previously constituted part of the clerical duties.
asked the Postmaster-General how many women clerical posts in the money order department have been substituted by writing assistants during the last three years?
The only change of the kind during the past three years is that under a reorganisation now in progress about 40 writing assistants will in future perform some of the simpler work previously assigned to women clerks.
Christmas Arrangements
asked the Postmaster-General what arrangements are being made to deal with the Christmas mails?
The arrangements will be on the same general lines as in recent years. In England, Wales and Northern Ireland there will be a delivery of parcels in most towns on Sunday, 21st December, a general delivery of letters and parcels in all parts on Christmas Day, and no delivery on Boxing Day. The latest time of posting for Christmas Day delivery will be the evening of Monday, the 22nd, for parcels and packets, and before noon on Tuesday, the 23rd, for letters and cards. Later times of posting for local delivery and neighbouring towns will be announced locally. I would appeal to the public to assist the Post Office by posting their Christmas parcels and letters as early as possible.
Is the Postmaster-General going to provide the extra labour by overtime or by taking on unemployed men?
It will be done partly by special labour and partly by overtime.
Will the hon. Gentleman see that we do not get a repetition this year of what we have had in previous years—the employment of temporary labour at outrageous rates of pay?
May I ask whether in the case of the delivery on Sundays steps are being taken to see that it is not a breach of the Lord's Day Observance Act?
Meerut Trial
asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that letters posted to Mrs. Mary Knight, of Manchester, the mother of Hugh Hutchison, one of the defendants in the Meerut trial, by Members of this House and from Petersfield in the month of November, have not been delivered; and will he make inquiries as to the continued failure of the Post Office to deliver letters fully and correctly addressed to this lady?
I have no knowledge of the failures to which the hon. Member refers. I will of course make inquiry in any specific case, if I am furnished with the particulars of place and date of posting.
Will the hon. Gentleman make inquiries into the specific instances I gave in my question 10 days ago?
Yes, if the hon. Member will furnish me with particulars as to the place and date of postage.
Has this lady herself asked for an interview in order to lay particulars before the Postmaster-General?
Not that I am aware of.
Will the hon. Gentleman inquire into that?
Is the Postmaster-General aware that other relatives of prisoners in. Meerut Gaol are making similar complaints, and will he also make inquiries into their cases?
Yes, if the hon. Member will forward me particulars.
Letter Deliverey, Darlington
asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that the recent alteration in the times of the first delivery of letters in certain districts of Darlington is causing loss and inconvenience to business men and women; and will he have inquiry made with a view to reverting to the former times of delivery?
I am having inquiry made and will write to the hon. Member.
Facilities (Drayton Housing Estate, Norwich)
asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that the absence of a post office on the Drayton housing estate, Norwich, is causing inconvenience to the residents there; and whether he will inquire into the matter?
I am having inquiry made and will write to the hon. Member.
Lost Letters and Parcels (Compensation)
asked the Postmaster-General the number of postal packages and letters that have been lost in transit during each of the four years ended 30th September, 1930; how many of these had been registered; and the total compensation paid by his Department in consequence of this loss?
The answer to this question contains a number of figures, and, with the permission of the hon. Member, I will circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the answer:
No estimate can be given of the number or value of unregistered letters which disappear in the post. As regards Inland registered letters and parcels, and In- land unregistered parcels, the figures for the last four financial years are as follow:
Registered Letters and Parcels. Year. Number of packets posted. Cases of loss. Amount paid in compensation. £ 1926–27 … 42,455,000 957 3,820 1927–28 … 43,707,000 489 1,824 1928–29 … 43,860,000 855 2,920 1929–30 … 44,068,000 721 2,479 Unregistered Parcels. £ 1926–27 … 127,880,000 8,518 8,167 1927–28 … 139,201,000 8,659 8,613 1928–29 … 141,009,000 10,546 9,855 1929–30 … 147,077,000 11,960 10,493
Exact figures for the first half of the current financial year are not available.
Sorting Work, Mount Pleasant
asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that a decision to transfer sorting work to the extent of 300 hours per day from sorters to postmen at the Inland Section, Mount Pleasant, London, is causing dissatisfaction among the staffs; that the prospects of advancement for sorters, postmen, porters, and boy messengers will thereby be worsened; and whether, seeing that the postmen are to be called upon to do sorting work which is being done by sorters, that the transfer of work from sorters to the lower-paid grade is down grading, that the administrative decision is in the face of the opposition of the unions representing the staff, that without proper compensation to the two grades concerned there is a transgression of trades union principles, he proposes to recognise this claim or to cancel the arrangements to which there is so much objection?
The work in question is performed almost wholly by postmen at other London sorting offices; and the termination of the exceptional arrangement under which it is performed wholly by sorters at the Inland Section does not appear to raise any question of principle. I have reviewed the whole matter and feel unable to depart from the decision already reached.
Does the hon. Gentleman not recognise that there is a difference between this arrangement and that which exists in other district offices, and is he not aware that these changes, some of which are a legacy from the previous Administration are causing very serious dissatisfaction throughout the Department?
I have inquired into the work, and it is practically the same as that in other offices. The fact that the system is not in operation in the inland section is an anomaly which cannot be allowed to continue any longer.
Does the hon. Gentleman not realise that the arrangement is a totally different one from that in other district offices, and will he not receive further representations regarding it?
No; I do not think the arrangement is different.
Savings Bank Department (Lighting)
asked the Postmaster-General what steps he intends to take to remedy the inadequacy of the lighting at present provided in the clerical sections of the savings bank department, in view of the frequency of eye strain amongst clerical officers employed in that department?
Improvements have already been made in the lighting in certain sections of the savings bank department, and experiments are now being carried out in other sections for the purpose of improving the existing installations.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that an extraordinary proportion of the staff in the ledger branch of the savings bank are compelled to wear glasses as a result of the inadequate lighting, that one of the Post Office specialists has made strong representations about it, and will the hon. Gentleman give the matter special attention?
Yes, Sir. The engineers are in process of making experiments, and as soon as they have finished the matter will be dealt with.
Argentina (Radio-Telephonic Communication)
asked the Postmaster-General whether he can now give any further information concerning the establishment of direct radio-telephonic communication by his Department between the United Kingdom and Argentina?
A direct radiotelephonic service between London and Buenos Aires was opened last Friday, the 12th December. This service affords communication between Great Britain and all parts of Argentina, and also, by means of landline connections from Buenos Aires, to the more important cities in Uruguay and Chile. The charge for a call from London to Buenos Aires is £2 a minute, minimum £6, the same as for a call to New York or to Sydney. Additional charges are made for calls to the more distant parts of Argentina, or to Uruguay or Chile. The service is at present available daily between the hours of 1.30 p.m. and 10 p.m.
Can my hon. Friend say whether these rates are below those previously charged for the indirect service through Paris?
I could not say without notice.
Questions
Grand Opera (Government Grant)
asked the Postmaster-General whether any of the governors of the British Broadcasting Corporation are also directors of the Covent Garden Opera Syndicate (1930), Limited, which is to control the expenditure of the Government subsidy?
Yes, Sir. I understand that the syndicate has appointed Mrs. Snowden, who is also a governor of the British Broadcasting Corporation, as one of its directors.
asked the Postmaster-General whether, under its memorandum and articles of association, the Covent Garden Opera Syndicate (1930), Limited, which is to be subsidised by the Government for the primary purpose of producing grand opera, can produce any kind of entertainment it chooses in competition with private entertainment enterprises?
It is a condition of payment of the grant to the syndicate that during its continuance the syndicate will not engage in any business other than that arising out of the grand opera scheme.
asked the Postmaster-General who are to be the directors of the new organisation to which the subsidy for grand opera will be paid; and whether he will himself be answerable to this House for their actions with regard to the subsidy?
The directors of the Covent Garden Opera Syndicate (1930), Limited at present are:
Can the hon. Gentleman say when it is likely that this House will be asked to give a decision to authorise the subsidy of grand opera?
After Christmas.
Is the £5,000 which is to be paid to subsidise grand opera this year going to pay the losses of the syndicate for last year?
No, Sir.
Is the Postmaster-General aware that musicians who are unemployed are looking with great expectation to this scheme being put into operation as early as possible?
asked the Postmaster-General whether, in view of the fact that the Imperial League of Opera have passed a resolution cancelling their amalgamation under which they were to provide equal funds with the Covent Garden syndicate, he still pro- poses to proceed with the State subvention for opera to the Covent Garden syndicate?
While the participation of the Imperial League of Opera would, I imagine, be widely welcomed, the scheme for the presentation of grand opera by the Covent Garden Syndicate (1930), Limited, with assistance from the British Broadcasting Corporation and the State, is not contingent upon the participation of that body.
May I ask whether the Postmaster-General is aware that the Imperial League of Opera have £30,000 subscribed annually by opera enthusiasts all over the country, and whether he will consult them and other musical experts before he gives a subsidy to one small band of operatic people?
I understand that negotiations between the Imperial League of Opera and the Covent Garden syndicate are still in progress.
Has the hon. Gentleman seen the statement of Sir Thomas Beecham who says deliberately that all negotiations have been broken off?
No, Sir. I have seen a statement that negotiations are still proceeding.
Seeing that the Imperial League of Opera is supported by thousands and thousands of people, some of small means, all over the country, is it not highly important that the Postmaster-General should hold up negotiations with the Covent Garden syndicate until this other question is settled?
I hope that the Imperial League of Opera will co-operate. The whole purpose of this grant is to put grand opera on a secure and not a precarious basis.
Will grand opera be put on a secure basis by dealing with a small company rather than by negotiating with a body which represents opera lovers all over the country?
Under the arrangements of the Government it will be put on a more secure basis than it would otherwise be.
Does not the Postmaster-General now see that the whole proposal of the Government in regard to this matter is a national scandal?
asked the Postmaster-General whether, in view of the fact that, under the memorandum and articles of association of the Covent Garden Opera Syndicate (1930), Limited, the directors of that company, as a board, are empowered to remunerate all or any of their number to the extent of £150 per annum and, when constituting a general meeting, are empowered to remunerate all or any of the number to an unlimited amount, he will require the company to obtain the sanction of the Treasury before exercising such powers as a condition of receiving the Government grant for grand opera; and whether, in view of the fact that this is a private company and therefore under no legal obligation to publish its annual balance sheet for public inspection, he will nevertheless require the company to publish its annual balance sheet as a further condition of receiving the Government grant?
The remuneration to which the hon. Member refers is only payable in the case of special journeys or special services performed by the Directors. By virtue of their share holding in the syndicate, the British Broadcasting Corporation will be able to control any payment beyond £150 per annum, and in view of this position I do not consider it necessary that the sanction of the Treasury should also be obtained. As regards the last part of the question, as the accounts of the syndicate will be submitted to the British Broadcasting Corporation quarterly, I do not propose to require that they should publish an annual balance sheet.
Can my hon. Friend now say whether one of the conditions of the subsidy will be a minimum standard for the workers employed?
That matter is dealt with in an answer to a question which the hon. Member did not put.
Is the Mrs. Philip Snowden referred to the wife of the Chancellor of the Exchequer?
Royal Parks (Speed Limit)
asked the First Commissioner of Works how many extra keepers, if any, are now employed in the royal parks as a result of the decision rigorously to enforce the speed limit of 20 miles per hour?
No additional park-keepers have been engaged.
Does the First Commissioner intend rigorously to enforce the speed limit?
I think we are enforcing it fairly rigorously, having regard to the number of prosecutions that have taken place since we made the new Regulation.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many extra police, if any, are now employed in the royal parks as a result of the decision rigorously to enforce the speed limit of 20 miles per hour?
There has been an augmentation of one sergeant and two constables in Regents Park.
Does the right hon. Gentleman regard this as a method of reducing the unemployment problem?
House of Commons (Mural Paintings)
asked the First Commissioner of Works why two historical frescoes on the wall which now forms part of the refreshment room on the Committee floor have been covered up; and whether he contemplates taking similar action in respect of any other mural decorations in the precints of the House?
The frescoes in question, having been pronounced as absolutely destroyed, were covered up 24 years ago. The answer to the second part of the question is in the negative.
Colonial Development Fund
asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any grants have been made from the Colonial Development Fund for technical education in any Colony; and, if so, whether he will give particulars?
No such grants have yet been made, but an application for a grant towards the capital cost of a technical training college and hostel in Nyasaland is under consideration, and approval has been given to a loan for further training to African dispensers and sanitary inspectors in Tanganyika.
Ecclesiastical Commission (Staff)
asked the hon. Member for Carlisle, as representing the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, when, and in what circumstances, the practice of employing temporary clerical staffs through the medium of the Joint Substitution Board was departed from by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners?
The Ecclesiastical Commission is not a State Department, and there has been no unbroken practice of employing through the medium of the Joint Substitution Board additional assistance from time to time when necessary for limited periods.
British White Citizens (Trial by Jury)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will order an immediate inquiry to be made into the circumstances in which it is possible for a white citizen of the British Empire to be tried within the Empire before a mixed jury of white and coloured people, with a view to putting an end to this practice?
The suggestion that accused persons must necessarily be tried by a jury of the same colour as themselves is not one which His Majesty's Government can accept.
GOLD COAST COLONY (Mr. T. B. BARRETT)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will take steps to order an inquiry to be held into the circumstances of the case in which Mr. T. Boevey Barrett was sentenced to a term of imprisonment in the Gold Coast Colony, with a view to ascertaining the reason why the Gold Coast Government, the Crown Agents for the Colonies, and the Colonial Secretary all refused petitions for the case to be reopened, the amount of compensation payable to Mr. Barrett, and the degree of blame which attaches to the various parties concerned?
My Noble Friend doubts whether, in the circumstances of this case, a further inquiry would serve any useful purpose, since, after the most careful investigation, Mr. Barrett has received a free pardon and the amount of compensation to be paid to him from Gold Coast funds is under consideration, and £2,000 has already been paid to him on account.
Unemployment (Health and Pension Insurance Rights)
asked the Minister of Health whether those persons whose insurance lapses at the end of the present year as a result of prolonged unemployment will be enabled to continue drawing benefit until legislation is passed; whether people in this position who become ill during the intervening period will be paid financial and sick benefit; and if he can make a full statement of the position of the different classes of such people and the number of people in this position as estimated by his Department?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, and to the second part, on the assumption made by my hon. Friend, in the negative. As regards the last part of the question, I would refer my hon. Friend to the terms of the Financial Resolution now on the Order Paper and of the White Paper, which has been presented to Parliament.
Am I to understand that during the intervening period these people are to be allowed to get financial and sick benefit?
If there should be an intervening period pension rights and maternity benefit would be covered. If there were an intervening period health insurance rights would be temporarily suspended.
Dangerous Drugs
asked the Home Secretary whether a report of the conference held last month in London of representatives of countries manufacturing dangerous drugs has been submitted to the Government; whether it will be published; and, if so, when?
I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given on 4th December to a similar question by the hon. and gallant Member for St. Albans (Lieut.-Colonel Fremantle).
Prisoners (Conveyance)
asked the Home Secretary whether he contemplates making any change in the method of conveying prisoners to and from prison in the Durham and other areas, seeing that men are still to foe seen on railway platforms handcuffed and chained together exposed to the view of the general public?
Road transport is being increasingly used for the conveyance of prisoners in all parts of the country. The practice of the prison authorities is either to hire suitable vehicles or to arrange with the police for use of police vans. But there are many cases where use must be made of the railway, especially for long journeys. In these cases, every effort is made by the reservation of compartments and other arrangements to avoid the exposure of prisoners to public attention.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say why road transport facilities, if already available, cannot be used where long distances are not involved, as, in a good many parts of the country it would be much more economical than the present method; and how long is this relic of barbarism to remain?
I think that that supplementary question rather ignores the substance of my answer. If there is any particular cases to which the hon. Member can refer me, I shall be glad to obtain information about them.
Is it not the case that almost precisely the same answer is being given to this question now as that which was given 12 months ago to a question on the same subject?
Business of the House
Will the Prime Minister tell us what business he proposes to take to-night in the event of the first Motion which stands in his name being carried; further, what business he proposes to take up to the Christmas Recess, and whether there is any alteration in the arrangements so far made?
If I may, I shall answer the second question in connection with the second Motion on the Paper for which I am responsible. With regard to the first question, the object of the Motion suspending the Eleven O'clock Rule, is to secure that the Committee stage of the Education (School Attendance) Bill shall be completed at this Sitting. There are two other Orders which are exempted business and which will be taken to-night, namely, the Consolidated Fund Bill (Second Reading) and the affirmative Resolution on the Census Order. It is not proposed to enter upon any other business after Eleven o'clock.
Can the Prime Minister tell us when the Resolution, in connection with the proposed alteration of the National Health Insurance Act which stands in the name of the Financial Secretary to the Treasury will be taken?
Unless it can be made an agreed Resolution it will not be taken until after the Christmas Recess. If it is possible to make it an. agreed Resolution, it will be taken before we rise.
Motion made, and Question put,
"That the Proceedings on Government Business be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order
(Sittings of the House)."—[ The Prime Minister. ]
The House divided: Ayes, 218; Noes, 132.
Division No. 70]. AYES. [3.48 p.m. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Grundy, Thomas W. Noel-Buxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N.) Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston) Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley) Aitchison, Rt. Hon. Craigle M. Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) Palin, John Henry Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro') Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.) Paling, Wilfrid Alpass, J. H. Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn) Palmer, E. T. Ammon, Charles George Hardie, George D. Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Arnott, John Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Attlee, Clement Richard Hastings, Dr. Somerville Phillips, Dr. Marion Ayles, Walter Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) Picton-Turbervill, Edith Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Herriotts, J. Pole, Major D. G. Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley) Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth) Potts, John S. Barnes, Alfred John Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Ramsay, T. B. Wilson Barr, James Hoffman, P. C. Rathbone, Eleanor Batey, Joseph Hopkin, Daniel Raynes, W. R. Bellamy, Albert Hore-Bellsha, Leslie Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood Horrabin, J. F. Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees) Bennett, William (Battersea, South) Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) Romeril, H. G. Benson, G. Isaacs, George Rosbotham, D. S. T. Bentham, Dr. Ethel Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Rothschild, J. de Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret John, William (Rhondda, West) Rowson, Guy Bowen, J. W. Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Salter, Dr. Alfred Bowerman Rt. Hon. Charles W. Jones, Rt. Hon Leif (Camborne) Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen) Broad, Francis Alfred Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Sanders, W. S. Brockway, A. Fenner Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. Sandham, E. Brothers, M. Jowitt, Sir W. A. (Preston) Sawyer, G. F. Brown, C. W. E. (Notts, Mansfield) Kelly, W. T. Shakespeare, Geoffrey H. Brown, Ernest (Leith) Kennedy, Thomas Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Brown, W. J. (Wolverhampton, West) Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Sherwood, G. H. Buchan, John Knight, Holford Shield, George William Burgess, F. G. Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George Shiels, Dr. Drummond Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland) Law, A. (Rossendale) Shillaker, J. F. Cameron, A. G. Lawrence, Susan Shinwell, E. Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.) Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Charleton, H. C. Lawson, John James Simmons, C. J. Chater, Daniel Leach, W. Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Church, Major A. G. Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern) Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) Cluse, W. S. Lees, J. Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley) Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Lewis, T. (Southampton) Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Cocks, Frederick Seymour Logan, David Gilbert Smith, Tom (Pontefract) Cohen, Major J. Brunel Longbottom, A. W. Smith, W. R. (Norwich) Compton, Joseph Longden, F. Snell, Harry Cowan, D. M. Lovat-Fraser, J. A. Sorensen, R. Dagqar, George Lowth, Thomas Stamford, Thomas W. Dallas, George Lunn, William Stephen, Campbell Dalton, Hugh Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) Strachey, E. J. St. Loe Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham) Strauss, G. R. Day, Harry McElwee, A. Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S. W.) Denman, Hon. R. D. McEntee, V. L. Thurtle, Ernest Duncan, Charles McGovern, J. (Glasgow, Shettleston) Tinker, John Joseph Ede, James Chuter MacLaren, Andrew Toole, Joseph Edmunds, J. E. MacNeill-Weir, L. Tout, W. J. Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Townend, A. E. Edwards, E. (Morpeth) Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Elmley, Viscount Marcus, M. Vaughan, D. J. Foot, Isaac Markham, S. F. Viant, S. P. Forgan, Dr. Robert Marshall, F. Walker, J. Freeman, Peter Mathers, George Wallace, H. W. Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) Matters, L. W. Watkins, F. C. Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.) Messer, Fred Wellock, Wilfred George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) Middleton, G. Welsh, James (Paisley) George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea) Milner, Major J. West, F. R. Gibbins, Joseph Montague, Frederick Westwood, Joseph Gill, T. H. Morley, Ralph Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood) Gillett, George M. Morris, Rhys Hopkins Williams, David (Swansea, East) Glassey, A. E. Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South) Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Gossling, A. G. Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.) Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Gould, F. Mort, D. L. Wilson, J. (Oldham) Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Moses, J. J. H. Winterton, G. E. (Leicester, Loughb'gh) Gray, Milner Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent) Wise, E. F. Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne) Mosley, Sir Oswald (Smethwick) Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Muff, G. Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Muggeridge, H. T. TELLERS FOR THE AYES .—.— Groves, Thomas E. Noel Baker, P. J. Mr. Hayes and Mr. William Whiteley.
NOES. Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Ferguson, Sir John Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William Atholl, Duchess of Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Peake, Capt. Osbert Baillie-Hamilton, Hon. Charles W. Ganzoni, Sir John Penny, Sir George Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley) Gower, Sir Robert Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Balniel, Lord Grace, John Pownall, Sir Assheton Beaumont, M. W. Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Purbrick, R. Bellairs, Commander Carlyon Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Ramsbotham, H. Berry, Sir George Gritten, W. G. Howard Remer, John R. Betterton, Sir Henry B. Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Rentoul, Sir Gervais S. Bourne, Captain Robert Croft. Gunston, Captain D. W. Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'te'y) Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W. Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. Boyce, H. L. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Briscoe, Richard George Hartington, Marquess of Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Buckingham, Sir H. Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart Burton, Colonel H. W. Haslam, Henry C. Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D. Butler, R. A. Heneage, Lieut.-Col Arthur P. Savery, S. S. Butt, Sir Alfred Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dino, C.) Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Herbert, Sir Dennis (Hertford) Smithers, Waldron Campbell, E. T. Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Castle Stewart, Earl of Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.) Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East) Cautley, Sir Henry S. Hurd, Percy A. Stanley, Lord (Fylde) Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.) Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R. Stanley, Maj. Hon. O (W'morland) Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A.(Birm., W.) Iveagh, Countess of Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston) Knox, Sir Alfred Stewart, W. J. (Belfast South) Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Lamb, Sir J. Q. Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F. Cohen, Major J. Brunel Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton) Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A. Colman, N. C. D. Leighton, Major B. E. P. Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton) Colville, Major D. J. Lewis, Oswald (Colchester) Tinne, J. A. Cranborne, Viscount Llewellin, Major J. J. Tryon, Rt. Hon. Georqe Clement Crichton-Stuart, Lord C. Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert Crookshank, Capt. H. C. Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Wardlaw-Milne, J. S. Clydesdale, Marquess of Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) Warrender, Sir Victor Dalkeith, Earl of Makins, Brigadier-General E. Wayland, Sir William A. Dalrymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey Margesson, Captain H. D. Wells, Sydney R. Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil) Marjoribanks, Edward Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay) Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Meller, R. J. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Dawson, Sir Philip Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Duckworth, G. A. V. Mitchell-Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount Dugdale, Capt. T. L. Mond, Hon. Henry Womersley, W. J. Eden, Captain Anthony Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley Edmondson, Major A. J. Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh) Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) Nicholson, O. (Westminster) Everard, W. Lindsay Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld) TELLERS FOR THE NOES .—.— Falle, Sir Bertram G. Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert Sir Frederick Thomson and Captain Wallace.
Message from the Lords
That they have agreed to,—
Expiring Laws Continuance Bill, with Amendments.
Expiring Laws Continuance Bill
Lords Amendments to be considered upon Wednesday, and to be printed [Bill 70.]
Business of the House
I beg to move,
"That, notwithstanding anything in any Standing Order of this House, Government Business have precedence on Wednesday, the 17th December and Friday, the 19th December."
The House will not require to be reminded that, unless it is decided otherwise later, the Government must supply two days in place of those taken this week, these days to be given after the Christmas Recess, so that Private Members are not being deprived by this Motion of any of their rights under the Standing Orders. The purpose of the Motion is to enable us to complete a certain body of business before the Adjournment for Christmas. The right hon. Gentleman asked me earlier what we proposed to do, and I thought that it would be more convenient if I answered that now. There is, first of all, the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill; that is to be finished before we rise. I understand from the newspapers, which are almost invariably wrong in their political prophecies, but which in this case may be right, that this House, after the Bill has left it, may have to give it a further consideration. If that should be the case, we propose to put down what would then be the Lords Amendments to the Bill as first Order on Wednesday afternoon. Then there are certain Supplementary Estimates; here there is an alteration in the programme. It has been found that the Supplementary Estimates which have been published for the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries and the Department of Agriculture in Scotland ought to be taken before the Christmas Adjournment. The third part of this block of business is the finishing of the Education (School Attendance) Bill. I need not take up the time of the House further; I move the Motion simply in order to enable the House to finish its business before the Christmas Adjournment, and at the same time to allow that Adjournment to take place on Friday.
4.0 p.m.
I would like to say, in answer to what the Leader of the House has said, that the programme of Business has been carefully examined through the usual channels, and, so far as we on this side are concerned, we have no objection to raise, and I shall not ask my Friends to divide against this Motion.
I do not, in the circumstances, want to occupy the time of the House for more than a few minutes, but I really think that there ought to be some protest against rushing through the Education Bill in these last few days before the rising of the House for the Christmas Recess. The Bill, I understand, is not to come into operation until September, 1932, and, therefore, the very short delay which would be entailed by leaving over the Report stage and Third Reading until after we resume could, I imagine, make little difference. The serious part, however, which I want the Prime Minister to consider very carefully is this: It is a very contentious Bill, and has taken six days in Committee. The right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill admitted, quite frankly, that the discussion had been useful to him, and I think I am right in saying that there has been no obstruction throughout the Committee stage. During that stage two or three points arose which require most careful consideration on or before the Report stage.
There is one most important point, namely, the question of a possible concordat being arrived at with certain bodies interested in non-provided schools. Some of the right hon. Gentleman's own supporters indicated that they would feel obliged to put down certain Amendments on Report, unless some settlement were arrived at before that stage. So far, we have not observed that any such settlement has been found. There is another matter which arose the last time the Committee sat on this Bill, when the Minister discovered that whereas he was amending the Education Act, 1921, regarding the question of age, his Bill had failed to amend it in the other matter that is dealt with under the 1921 Act, namely, the employment of young persons. According to the Minister's own statement, that is a matter which ought to be dealt with in this Bill, and he cannot do it without taking the necessary steps to revise the Title of the Bill, and make, apparently, quite a number of Amendments in it. In addition to these matters, the right hon. Gentleman or his deputy gave four separate undertakings to consider before the Report stage four different points arising on this Bill. There have been some half dozen Amendments made to the Bill, and a new Clause added to it, and the Committee stage will not finish until some time to-night. If the Report stage is to be taken on Wednesday, it means that there is no possibility, as far as I can see, of hon. Members who are interested in this Bill having the reprinted Bill before them, and being able to put on the Order Paper the Amendments for the Report stage.
I never want to use the language of exaggeration, but I think there has scarcely been a case in my memory in which an attempt has been made to rush through a Bill, for which there is no apparent urgency, in this way, without giving hon. Members an opportunity of fairly considering it. One of the complaints made against Parliament in the country recently has been the amount of slipshod legislation, which is put on the Statute Book, and I think that this Bill, on which many of my friends have spent a good deal of time and have honestly tried to improve the Bill, is obviously one which requires further consideration. I ask the Prime Minister to say whether it would not be for the convenience of the House, and according to the best traditions of Parliament, that the further stages of this Bill should be postponed until we meet again, in order that hon. Members may have an opportunity of considering the reprinted Bill, and that the Minister in charge may have the opportunity of dealing with these various matters to which I have referred, which he undertook to consider before the Report stage?
There is a matter I want to raise, because I think it is of very great importance. I asked a question at Question Time with regard to the position of people who have been unemployed for a long time, and who, unless legislation is to be passed before the end of this year, will automatically go out of the benefit of National Health Insurance. It is a matter of supreme importance that the rights of these people should be fully secured. The Minister of Health told me to-day that, unless legislation were now passed, there would be a certain number of people during the intervening period between the ending of the year and the passing of legislation, who would be unable to get sick benefit and the financial benefit accompanying sickness. I wonder if Members of this House realise what it means to these people.
I hardly see how this is connected with the Motion before the House.
The Motion before the House is one to take up the time of private Members on Wednesday and Friday, and I am anxious to press upon the Prime Minister that that time should be taken for the passing into law of this provision for those people who would be put in the position to which I have referred. I am asking that that should become the matter of supreme importance before we rise for the Christmas Recess, so that the rights of these people, who are in the most wretched circumstances of all in this country, should be fully secured. I am sure that Members in all parts of the House will realise its importance to their constituents, and that there will be general sympathy with the people in the position I have indicated. I do hope that they are going to get a better Christmas message than has been the case so far in dealing with this matter, and that the Prime Minister or the Minister of Health will give us the assurance that during this week, before we rise, those people are to be put into a position of security.
I raised this question in the month of May. I then asked the Department what steps were being taken to safeguard the rights of these people. The Minister of Health and the Secretary of State for Scotland cannot say that it has occurred suddenly. One of the hon. Members for Southampton and other hon. Members have also stressed the question, and I think it is an intolerable thing that we Members of Parliament, in comfortable position ourselves, should separate while leaving people, who are in sickness and trouble, to be deprived of their benefit at a time like this. I hope, therefore, that we shall get an assurance from the Government that these people are to be protected.
There is one point I would like to put to the Prime Minister most respectfully. He said that he was going to consider before Christmas a Supplementary Estimate in connection with the Ministry of Agriculture both for England and Scotland. I am not quite sure, but I think that that is in connection with the Agricultural Land (Utilisation) Bill. If that be so, it is likely that we shall be in a most difficult position. The Standing Committee on that Bill is, and has been, sitting three and four days a week in the afternoon, and it looks quite likely that we shall be discussing a Supplementary Estimate on this matter on the Floor of the House while the Committee, who have full understanding of the Bill, will be dealing with the Bill upstairs at the same time. The Prime Minister undoubtedly remembers the very strong statement he made to the Hours' Committee within the past 12 months on the question of Standing Committees sitting in the afternoon, and if this difficulty is likely to arise, I, as one member of the Committee, would ask him whether, at any rate during the time that we are discussing this Supplementary Estimate, if it is, as I think it is, dealing with the Bill, we may not be free from this compulsory sitting upstairs, which would prevent us from considering this matter in the House of Commons? I raise this question because I consider that, in these circumstances, where the House of Commons is being asked to find new sums of money in Supplementary Estimates, it is not right or fair that private Members should be prevented by the action of the Government from taking part in these discussions on measures of Supply.
May I congratulate the Prime Minister on his use of the phrase "body of business" which is to be transacted before Christmas? "Body" is a word one would expect from a moribund Government of which he is the head. I want to ask particularly about the Education Bill, which, I think, must also be moribund, because it was made quite clear the other night by the hon. Member for Mile End (Mr. Scurr) that unless some agreement on the religious question were reached before the Report stage, Members on that side of the House would be compelled to support an Amendment on Report. Are we to have a statement this afternoon from the President of the Board of Education on that subject? If not, the House is going to be in a very difficult position, as it is not customary for the Chair to call manuscript Amendments on the Report stage. That is to say, if a concordat is not reached, Amendments will have to be handed in to-morrow. If, on the other hand, some arrangement has been reached, it gives the Members of this House less than 48 hours in which to make up their minds on one of the most acute subjects of disagreement in all parts of the country.
Speaking as a back bencher, I say that it is putting us in a difficult position, and one which is entirely uncalled for. If the object of the Government is that, merely because we are so near the Christmas rising, they will get the Bill through in two more days, I should have thought that they could let it go for the present, and get some sort of agreement to take, say, only two days after Christmas. That would give, at any rate, an opportunity for discussing this agreement, if there is one. On the other hand, if hon. Members opposite stick to what they said in Committee, the Bill is dead, and, therefore, not worth discussing.
I want to support the plea with regard to insured persons who will suffer if the Resolution is not passed. If only the Leader of the Opposition will give his word, it can go through quite easily before the Christmas Adjournment. I cannot conceive of the Opposition really objecting to this. I understand that previously the approved societies bore the cost, but in this case the Government propose to bear the cost. Although the Opposition may object to this Resolution being taken now they know there is not the slightest doubt that the House will pass this legislation when it comes up after Christmas, if that course is forced upon us. That being the case, it would be sheer wickedness on their part to make people lose their sickness benefits for the space of four or five weeks.
The Minister has told us that things will be all right as far as the maternity payments are concerned, but the sickness benefits are very important, and I really cannot think that opposition to the course the Government propose can be forthcoming from any really respon- sible people. The Consultative Council, representing all the approved societies, had this matter under consideration last week and agreed that it was most urgent. It is not my place to enter into the discussions which took place there, but the decision was come to nemine contradicente, and that ought to be taken into consideration by the Opposition. I ask the Leader of the Opposition to give us his word that he will not oppose the Resolution dealing with this matter.
I think the House will be surprised to learn that no part of the time of private Members which is being taken is to be devoted to the discussion of the Trade Unions Amendment Bill. The Prime Minister seems to be the only person able to answer questions on this subject, and I would like to ask him whether the pledge given by the Foreign Secretary at the Trade Union Congress was made—
I cannot see how the hon. Member is connecting his speech with the Motion before the House.
With all respect, Sir, I wish to press this point. A Cabinet Minister makes a statement that a certain Bill will receive a Second Reading before Christmas, and in view of the allocation of the time before Christmas I only desire to ask the Prime Minister whether that statement was made on the Foreign Secretary's own initiative or on behalf of the Government.
I rise to refer to the point which was raised by my two hon. Friends on this side of the House. The prolongation of insurance is no new principle. It has been carried out for several years. It was hoped to abandon it after the Act of 1928 was passed, but my predecessor wisely kept a loophole open for himself. The situation for these people is one of greater gravity than it was then, and I had assumed, as, I think, most people in the House anticipated, that these proposals would have been regarded as of a non-controversial nature and passed without the slightest objection.
May I have an answer to the question I asked the Prime Minister?
It is only by leave of the House that I can speak again, and I propose to give only a brief answer to the questions which have been put. As regards the Education Bill, the Bill as amended in Committee will be circulated to-morrow morning, so that the whole of to-morrow will be available for its study and for the consideration of Amendments to be moved on the Report stage. As regards the Supplementary Estimate for agriculture, I am informed that there is an agreement that the Agricultural Bill will get through Committee upstairs on Wednesday, but in any event it is very desirable that the Department should have liberty given to it by this House to spend some necessary small sums upon seeds and similar things which are required early in the springtime. That sum applies to a part of the Bill upon which there is practically no division of opinion: there may be disagreement over details, but in substance there is no division about it. I am sorry that I cannot reply to the very bland and most friendly intervention of the hon. Member for Chislehurst (Mr. Smithers). The business up to Christmas has been announced and the announcement is made on behalf of the Government.
I think it is still necessary to clear up the situation regarding the National Health Insurance Act and the unemployed. As I understand, this matter was brought to the attention of the Government seven months ago. We all hoped very much that the House would allow a Resolution of this kind to be passed as an agreed matter, but there has been no indication that that will be the attitude of the Opposition, and, therefore, before this discussion ends, we should like some assurance from the Government that if there is opposition from the benches opposite they will arrange the business in such a way that we do not rise for Christmas and leave unemployed persons who are receiving national health insurance assistance in the position in which they would then be. Unless we get an assurance that the House will deal with this matter either on Wednesday or Friday—the two private Members' days which are taken—many of us would prefer to come back next week in order to deal with the situation rather than rise for the Christmas holidays knowing that many of our constituents, of whose position we have first-hand knowledge, will be left without assistance during the month in which this House will be in Recess. Unless we can get a definite assurance to that effect it will be necessary for some of us to Divide and to vote against the Government on this Motion.
I would like to ask the Minister of Health whether, in the event of this Resolution not going through, there are any emergency powers which the Government could put into force to prevent payment of sickness benefit being interrupted? If the Minister of Health cannot give an assurance on that point, has he consulted with the other members of the Cabinet with a view to intimating, through the usual channels, that business will continue, in spite of Christmas or the New Year, until this matter has been dealt with?
I cannot pretend to answer the question on business, but I can tell my hon. Friend that if the House will not agree to passing the Prolongation of Insurance Act before Christmas the situation will be as follows: Persons who are actually in receipt of health insurance or disability benefit at the end of the year will continue to receive it until the period of their sickness or disablement ends and will be protected for a further month. All pension rights will be protected as from the 1st January, whenever the Act comes on to the Statute Book. Maternity benefit will be similarly protected, and maternity benefit will be payable in all cases that arise between 1st January and the passing of the Act. What is left open is the position of people who become ill or disabled after 1st January. As things will stand on 31st December, unless steps are taken this week, those persons will be deprived of both medical benefit and cash benefit until the Act is on the Statute Book. There are no emergency powers of any kind which can alter that. It would be illegal for the approved societies to make any payment to those persons after the end of this year, they would be open to proceedings in the courts if they were to do so; and I have no powers to give them instructions or to give them opportunities to make payments.
Will the right hon. Gentleman explain that even if this Financial Resolution be passed he will be no better off in that respect? There is still the Bill to be passed.
That is perfectly true; this is only the Money Resolution. Although the Bill is ready it cannot be printed until the Money Resolution is passed. The Bill would have to be passed, but if it were non-controversial it could easily pass through all its stages.
Before this Motion is passed we are entitled to some indication from those in charge of business as to the position of affairs in regard to this Bill. I do not follow the right hon. Gentleman when he says that the Bill cannot be printed until the Money Resolution is passed. He can print the Bill at any time, and the House would then have an opportunity of ascertaining what other provisions are involved in addition to that which depends on the passing of the Financial Resolution. We are entitled to know what the difficulties of the position are.
The only difficulty that I can see is a doubt as to whether there is agreement in the House.
It was for that very reason that I rose. Surely we are entitled to know from those in charge of the business just how the matter stands.
On a point of Order. Is it not the case that under an earlier Act the old Act is allowed to remain in force beyond the date of expiry if the new Bill has been introduced? I remember a case in connection, I think, with the Rent Restriction Acts during the administration of the right hon. Gentlement the Member for Edgbaston (Mr. Chamberlain) as Minister of Health. Attention was then drawn to an old Act which allowed this to be done. I think the ex-Minister of Health took advantage of that old Act, and I would like to know whether we cannot apply it in the same way.
Will the Minister explain to the House why he has put us in this difficulty? He has had this matter under consideration since May last, and it is only to-day, and without notice to any on this side of the House who have a special interest in this matter, that this notice has been put upon the Paper.
With reference to the point raised by the hon. Member for Camlachie (Mr. Stephen), the Act under which my predecessor acted is no longer on the Statute Book, and the people who are receiving this additional transitional benefit this year are receiving it under Regulations made under the Act of 1928, which repealed the Act of 1921, which originated the system of prolonging insurance. Therefore, there is no hope along those lines. The right hon. Gentleman opposite knows just as well as I do the complexity of this problem. It was not till Wednesday of last week that the matter was finally settled with all the interests concerned. As regards the point put by my hon. Friend behind me, if any kind of accommodation can be reached, we will do everything possible to put this Measure on the Statute Book this week.
Surely a very simple way of securing that end would be to postpone the further stages of the Education Bill? We all know that the success or failure of that Bill depends upon an arrangement with the non-provided schools, and we know that most important proposals are being made to the Minister of Education. The Minister told us that the proposals which were being made would, HE hoped, mature before the Report stage. He knows that a number of Members on this side of the House and on the other are interested in the matter. It is desirable from every point of view that the Report stage of the Education Bill should be postponed.
Question put.
The House divided: Ayes, 206; Noes, 52.
Division No. 71.] AYES. [4.32 p.m. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Foot, Isaac Law, A. (Rossendale) Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Freeman, Peter Lawrence, Susan Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge) Aitchison, Rt. Hon. Craigie M. Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.) Leach, W. Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro') George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) Lees, J. Alpass, J. H. George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea) Lewis, T. (Southampton) Ammon, Charles George Gibbins, Joseph Longbottom, A. W. Angell, Norman Gibson, H. M. (Lancs, Mossley) Longden, F. Arnott, John Gill, T. H. Lovat-Fraser, J. A. Attlee, Clement Richard Gillett, George M. Lowth, Thomas Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Gossling, A. G. Lunn, William Barnes, Alfred John Gould, F. Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) Barr, James Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham) Batey, Joseph Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne). MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw) Bellamy, Albert Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) McElwee, A. Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.) McEntee, V. L. Bennett, William (Battersea, South) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) MacNelli-Weir, L. Benson, G. Groves, Thomas E. Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampten) Bentham, Dr. Ethel Grundy, Thomas W. Marcus, M. Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Marshall, Fred Bowen, J. W. Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Mathers, George Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) Matters, L. W. Broad, Francis Alfred Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.) Messer, Fred Bromley, J. Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn) Middleton, G. Brooke, W. Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Milner, Major J. Brothers, M. Hastings, Dr. Somerville Montague, Frederick Brown, C. W. E. (Notts, Mansfield) Haycock, A. W. Morley, Ralph Burgess, F. G. Hayday, Arthur Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh) Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland) Hayes, John Henry Morrison, Herbert (Hackney South) Cameron, A. G. Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.) Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.) Herriotts, J. Mort, D. L. Charleton, H. C. Hirst, G. H. (York W.R. Wentworth) Moses, J. J. H. Chater, Daniel Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent) Church, Major A. G. Hoffman, P. C. Mosley, Sir Oswaid (Smethwick) Cluse, W. S. Hopkin, Daniel Muff, G. Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Hore-Belisha, Leslie Muggeridge, H. T. Cocks, Frederick Seymour Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) Noel Baker, P. J. Compton, Joseph Isaacs, George Noel-Buxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N.) Cove, William G. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Oldfield, J. R. Daggar, George John, William (Rhondda, West) Oliver, George Harold (Likeston) Dallas, George Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley) Dalton, Hugh Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne) Palin, John Henry Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Palmer, E. T. Day, Harry Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Denman, Hon. R. D. Jowett, Sir W. A. (Preston) Perry, S. F. Duncan, Charles Kennedy, Thomas Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Ede, James Chuter Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Phillips, Dr. Marion Edmunds, J. E. Knight, Holford Picton-Turbervill, Edith Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George Pole, Major D. G. Edwards, E. (Morpeth) Lathan, G. Potts, John S. Elmley, Viscount Law, Albert (Bolton) Ramsay, T. B. Wilson Raynes, W. R. Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley) Walker, J. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Wallace, H. W. Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees) Smith, Tom (Pontefract) Watkins, F. C. Romeril, H. G. Smith, W. R. (Norwich) Wellock, Wilfred Rosbotham, D. S. T. Snell, Harry Welsh, James (Paisley) Rowson, Guy Sorensen, R. West, F. R. Salter, Dr. Alfred Stamford, Thomas W. Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood) Sanders, W. S. Sutton, J. E. Whiteley, William (Blaydon) Sawyer, G. F. Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S. W.) Wilkinson, Ellen C. Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Williams, David (Swansea, East) Sherwood, G. H. Thurtle, Ernest Williams Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Shield, George William Tinker, John Joseph Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Shiels, Dr. Drummond Toole, Joseph Wilson, J. (Oldham) Shillaker, J. F. Tout, W. J. Winterton, G. E.(Leicester, Loughb'gh) Shinwell, E. Townend, A. E. Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Simmons, C. J Vaughan, D. J. TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —— Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Viant, S. P. Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Paling. Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) Walkden, A. G.
NOES. Ayles, Walter Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Nicholson, O. (Westminster) Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley) Everard, W. Lindsay Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld) Bellairs, Commander Carlyon Ferguson, Sir John Rentoul, Sir Gervais S. Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart Forgan, Dr. Robert Rothschild, J. de Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W. Ganzoni, Sir John Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart Briscoe, Richard George Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Sandham, E. Brown, Ernest (Leith) Gritten, W. G. Howard Savery, S. S. Brown, W. J. (Wolverhampton, West) Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C Buchanan, G. Herbert, Sir Dennis (Hertford) Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East) Buckingham, Sir H. Horrabin, J. F. Stephen, Campbell Burton, Colonel H. W. Hurd, Percy A. Wallhead, Richard C. Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Iveagh, Countess of Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert Cautley, Sir Henry S. Lamb, Sir J. Q. Welis, Sydney R. Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R.(Prtsmth, S.) Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton) Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay) Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Lewis, Oswald (Colchester Wise, E. F. Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George Maitland, A. (Kent, Faveraham) Womersley, W. J. Crookshank, Capt. H. C. Markham, S. F. Dalrymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey Maxton, James TELLERS FOR THE NOES .—.— Mr. Brockway and Mr. McGovern.
Ordered,
"That, notwithstanding anything in any Standing Order of this House, Government Business have precedence on Wednesday the 17th December and Friday, the 19th December."
Orders of the Day
Education (School Attendance) Bill
Considered in Committee [ Progress, 11th December. ]
[Mr. ROBERT YOUNG in the Chair.]
SECOND SCHEDULE.—(Qualifications and Form of Claim for Receipt of Maintenance Allowances.)
I beg to move, in page 4, line 25, to leave out from the word "be," to the end of line 28, and to insert instead thereof the words: This, is a very simple Amendment. The main object is to remove what I think must have been an oversight in the drafting of the Bill. As the Schedule now stands, no one but the father can draw the maintenance grant, unless the mother can prove that the child is living with her and not with the father. Even in such extreme cases as that of a father who is a total invalid or a man of bad character, the mother cannot draw the money unless she has exclusive custody of the child. The way I should have preferred to amend the Clause is shown in the Amendment put down by a group of Members of the Liberal party, because it would be a good opportunity for asserting the principle that, after all, father and mother have their contribution to make to the household, the father's, in the ordinary case being the finding of the money, and the mother's, to do the work and spend the money. Therefore, she is the person who should collect the allowance. This principle is carried out in the New South Wales Act which gives maintenance allowances for children, and in many other laws on the subject, and it has the support of many Members of the Committee.
It has been represented to me, however, that inclusion of this principle might cause great dislocation of the machinery of the Act, so I have put down an Amendment which I hope the Committee will agree to as a reasonable and logical compromise, namely, that either the father or the mother may claim the allowance, and that, in the event of a dispute, the local authority shall decide. In many cases, the mother has more leisure to attend to this kind of detail of the domestic arrangements. An advantage of the Amendment is that, where either parent is not likely to make good use of the allowance, and there is a dispute between them, the local authority can decide who is to claim. The Amendment is completely in line with the Act passed in the last Parliament where it was laid down that, if there is a dispute as to the guardianship and custody of a child, and the dispute is brought into Court, then—but let me quote the Preamble to the Measure to which I have just referred, the Guardianship of Infants Act, 1925. It says:
It is sometimes said that the father is the person who has to maintain the child, but I think that that is a doubtful principle even in law. Under the Poor Law Act, the responsibility for the maintenance of the child is definitely put upon both parents or upon the grandparents, and I am told that it is quite customary, in cases of neglect of children, for both parents to be brought into court and charged with neglect, so that apparently the law does not regard the father as the person primarily responsible; but, even if it did, I suggest that that would not be any reason for setting aside the principle laid down in the Guardianship of Infants Act, which is carried out in my Amendment. Even where the father provides the money, the mother provides what is quite as important, namely, service. If one think of the working out of this provision in the ordinary home, is it not just this, that it relieves the liability which in practice now rests upon the mother? If there were no maintenance allowance, the mother would have to make the money which the father hands over to her for the maintenance of the child go further than it does already. As things are now it is a case of making bricks without straw, and, if there were no maintenance allowance, she would have to make more bricks with the same amount of straw. This is so much a matter of common sense that I hope it will be agreed to in all quarters of the House, and I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to accept the Amendment.
If this were a question of principle, it might be rather difficult to decide. The father maintains the family generally; the mother looks after the children generally. But I do not think that to-day this matter of deciding who shall be the claimant is really one of principle; it is a question of convenience. We have to make it as easy as possible to decide within the family who is moist suitable to make the claim, and I am bound to say that I think that the hon. Lady has made the best suggestion, that is to say, that it would be better to leave it to the family to decide, and, if there is any dispute, to let the local authority judge between them. I propose to accept the Amendment.
By all means let the family decide. I think that that is a very good principle to adopt. But, surely, while that may be the right principle, it would be im- possible to find an Amendment more loosely drafted or more likely to cause trouble than this one. What does it mean? This Bill gives a legal right to a certain payment to a certain person. You start defining who that person is, and you say that it shall be either one of two persons. That is a funny way of conferring a legal right. Of course, the answer, while it does not appear on the surface of the Amendment, and will not appear on the surface of the Bill when it is passed, is that a person can only become entitled if he or she puts in a claim, and, therefore, it means that it shall be either the father or the mother, whichever puts in a claim. The first thing I have to say about this Amendment is that these words, "whichever makes a claim," should be put in.
In the same way, the Amendment says, "in the event of a dispute." What is a dispute? How is the local authority to become aware of the dispute in the bosom of the family? [HON. MEMBERS: "There would be two claims."] Then why not say that, in the event of two claims being received from both parties, the local education authority shall decide? Because, apparently, we in the House of Commons have got into the habit of never saying what we mean in legislation, we have this extraordinary piece of drafting submitted to us and actually accepted by the Minister. What is the result? It is that either the father or the mother, whichever puts in a claim, is the person entitled, and no one else. If there is no dispute, no one else is entitled. Supposing that the mother puts in the claim, she, and she alone, is entitled to the money, and the local education authority can pay it, so far as I can see, to her alone. The mother is certainly not the person in the family who finds it most easy to go round and call at the post office, or the office of the local education authority, or wherever the maintenance allowance may be given, but apparently, so far as I can see, she will have to go in person, after this Amendment is passed, and get the money, and nothing can relieve her of that duty when she has once signed the original claim. Could anything be more absurd than that? Of course, whoever may be the person to whom it is desired to give the money, in nine cases out of 10 the wife will certainly ask her husband to go round and get it. [ Interruption. ] That would be the only way if she has a large family whom she finds it difficult to leave, or is ill. Surely, that is not what we want to do. It is true that we want to allow the family to decide, but, surely, it would be very much better to adopt some such proposal as that which stands in the name of my Noble Friend the Member for Perth (Duchess of Atholl), and insert the words:
Is it not the child who is entitled to the allowance? As I understand it, the whole basis is that it is the child who gets the endowment, not the father or the mother. The father or the mother makes the claim, but they cannot claim unless the child is dependent upon them.
The child is the person in respect of whom the father or the mother is entitled to the allowance, but it is the father or the mother who is legally entitled to this money, and has a claim in law against the local authority. [ Interruption. ] Of course it is. I would refer the hon. Member for Aberavon (Mr. Cove) to his own Front Bench, who will certainly tell him that. The one thing that we must not do is to make the title dependent on the signature which happens to be at the foot of the original application. That is what this Amendment does. I think that the Government ought not to accept it, and I shall divide against it in the interests of clear drafting.
The hon. Lady the Member for the combined English Universities (Miss Rathbone), in moving this Amendment so convincingly, frankly avowed that she preferred the Amendment which stood in my name. I must confess that I do also. The hon. Lady directed the whole force of her argument to convincing the President of the Board of Education that my Amendment was a good one, though I must say it was not necessary for her to convince me of that. I agree with the Noble Lord the Member for Hastings (Lord E. Percy) that, if this Amendment is carried, it may make the position a little more satisfactory than it is at present, but it cannot, in the end, produce anything but chaos. This Bill establishes for the first time the principle of family allowances. No one pretends that it is going to stop here. These allowances are never going to be restricted to children—
That question does not arise on the Amendment at all.
If I might be forgiven for saying a word or two more, they are never going to be restricted to children between the ages of 14 and 15. This is the initiation of a new principle, and it is, therefore, of vital importance that the House should decide, and decide once and for all, to whom these maintenance allowances are to be paid. The right hon. Gentleman says, "We will leave that to the local education authority." But the object of this Bill is not to establish the local education authority as a matrimonial causes bureau for husbands and wives to appear and argue their respective claims to an allowance. That, however, will be the result of this Amendment. The right hon. Gentleman is actually inviting a dispute in the heart of the family. [ Interruption. ] Hon. Members may laugh at that, but, if he is not inviting a dispute, why use the words: There is no power vested in the education authority to divide either the child or the allowance in half; a decision has to be reached after evidence is produced. I submit that that is putting the education authority in a moat invidious position.
5.0 p.m.
The causes which shall determine the priority either of the father or of the mother are not laid down here. Therefore, the officials of the education authority will have to go right into the home and inquire about the desirability of either the father or the mother; they will have to make inquiries which are of a most undesirable character. The whole object of the House of Commons is to make its legislation clear and precise. To whom is this maintenance allowance to be given? It is our business to decide. You may give it to the child, and there is a great deal to be said for such a course. The London County Council do that now. They put the money in a savings bank for the benefit of the child, and that is quite a clear and logical principle, which is defended by hon. Members opposite. When the Unemployment Insurance Bill, which lowered to 15 the age at which children could come into insurance, was before the House last year, the money was made payable to the child. On that occasion I moved an Amendment suggesting that it should be paid to the mother.
The hon. Member is getting very wide of the Amendment, which does not relate to putting money into the bank, but decides who is to be the claimant.
That is precisely the point that I am arguing. I say that the principle of paying this money to the child was defended by hon. Members opposite, who recalled that many of them at the age of 10 had taken wages home to their parents and could be entrusted with the money. That is a principle which I understand. The principle of paying to the father is equally comprehensible. You may say that he is the wage-earner, and that this money is intended to be an addition to his earnings. I do not believe that is the intention, but it is a logical argument. You may say, lastly, that it shall be payable to the mother, and I believe that that is the proper principle to adopt.
One of the most sorrowful aspects of the social situation to-day is the economic inferiority of women. Once a woman marries a man and has children, she is dependent on the good will of that man to bring his wages home and give them to her. This is an assembly of men, and it may appear something in the nature of high treason to propose that anything should be done for women, but if this were an assembly of women, composed entirely of people like my Noble Friend the Member for the Sutton Division (Viscountess Astor), the men would be hard put to it to get justice at all. As justice is within our gift, I suggest that we should settle this matter once and for all upon a perfectly sound principle. Maternity grants under the National Health Insurance Act are payable to the mother. This is only an extended maternity grant, something to enable the wife to provide meals for the child. This is entirely her job. This has nothing at all to do with the man, and I suggest—
What if the mother is not maintaining the child?
In that case the person who is maintaining the child should have the money.
If it is the father who is maintaining the child, the father should have the money.
I do not quite understand my hon. Friend opposite. You have to provide that the money shall be payable either to the mother or to the father, and if the child is not living with the father, the mother can get the money now. If the child is not living with the mother, the father will get the money under my proposal; but we have to decide in this Committee who is the proper person to maintain the family, and we have to recognise the principle that the mother is the proper person to maintain the child. Therefore, much as I prefer this Amendment to the present proposal of the Minister, I hope he will further consider the question before the Report stage and see if he cannot make this Measure the first step in redressing the economic inequality of women.
I did not quite like this Clause as originally drafted in the Bill, but I prefer it to the Amendment which the Minister has now accepted, because it is obvious, if you decide that you are not going to pay the allowance to the child, that either the father or the mother must have it. The hon. Member for the Combined English Universities (Miss Rathbone), who moved the Amendment, was not quite correct as to the effect of the law that has recently been passed with regard to this matter. By the Poor Law Act of 1927, mothers and grandmothers have only been made liable for their children or grandchildren in the same way as the husband if they are possessed of separate property. Those words are actually in Section 41 of the Poor Law Act, 1927. Therefore, in law the legal responsibility still remains on the husband, even for children of his wife, whether illegitimate or not, before he married her, so we are in the position here that as the law stands the person who is liable to maintain the children is the father and not the mother. Under those circumstances, is there any valid argument for paying the money to the mother and not to the father?
I object to this Amendment because, as the Noble Lord the Member for Hastings (Lord E. Percy) has said, it puts two people on the same level with regard to claiming this money, and indeed it does not say at all what I think we all mean in this Committee. In my view, the father, if he is still liable in law to maintain the child, should be the person to be granted this maintenance allowance. If we want to grant the maintenance allowance to the mother, then let us make her the person liable in law to maintain the child. There are, of course, a certain number of men, not very many, who would perhaps misuse the money for their own ends, and there may be a certain number of mothers who would do the same thing, but at any rate, if the father does it, he is liable to be proceeded against summarily for not supporting his child, and it therefore seems to me that it is the father who should have the responsibility primarily for supporting the child.
Surely the mother is also liable in law to maintain her child now?
No. If she has separate property, she is, under Section 41 of the Poor Law Act, 1927, still equally liable with the father, but if she has no settled property, the only case in which she is liable is still under the same Section, which says that a mother of an illegitimate child, so long as she is unmarried or a widow, shall be bound to maintain such child as part of the family until the child attains the age of 16 or, if a female, marries under that age.
Does the hon. and gallant Member deny that the plain question is, What will happen if there is a charge of neglect? I say that if there are both father and mother, they are generally summoned jointly, and they are both held to blame. If the maintenance allowance is badly spent, the blame rests on the mother, and she is legally liable in that sense.
Neglect is a different matter from that with which I was dealing. Under the old common law liability, it was always the father—and, I think, quite properly so—who was liable to maintain his children, because after all the father is more liable than the mother to neglect his children in most cases, so it is well that the legal liability should still rest upon the father. That is how, as a matter of fact, it stands to-day for maintenance, unless the wife has separate property of her own. That being the case, what is best to be done with this 5s. maintenance allowance? I should like to have seen it made payable to the wife in more cases than were originally provided for by the Minister in this Bill, because I think there are cases where the mother should have this allowance, even if she is still living in the same house as the father, where he is perhaps rather a dissolute sort of man who would spend the money wrongfully.
I hope the Minister will make it clear that there is one person who is to be primarily liable to get the money, and I much prefer the second Amendment, in the name of the Noble Lady the Member for Kinross and Western (Duchess of Atholl). Under that Amendment, the father has a right to claim, and the mother has a right to claim, either if she is not living with the father and the child is living with her, or if, for any other reason, the local education authority thinks fit to pay the money to the mother; that means to say, in cases where it is brought to their notice that the money is being spent in ways that are not for the benefit of the child at all; and it is right there that the mother should have it.
I much prefer to see one definite person, either the father or the mother, originally allowed to draw this allowance, and not both, and so long as, in law, the father is the man liable to maintain his children, and indeed the children of his wife by another marriage, then I think he is the one primarily who should have this allowance paid to him, unless for some specific reason the local education authority decide to pay it to somebody else. I hope that, on further thought and after the arguments which have been brought forward to-day, the Minister will not finally accept the Amendment moved by the hon. Lady.
I want to say a few words in favour of the Amendment, which seems to me quite the best way of safeguarding the best use of the money on behalf of the child. We are all anxious that this money should be put to the very best use, and we all know that there are some fathers, very few no doubt, who would not put it to the best use and some mothers, also very few no doubt, who would not. Therefore, in the Amendment which has been moved, you have the choice between the two. The hon. and gallant Member for Uxbridge (Major Llewellin) has laid great emphasis on the fact, as did the hon. Member for Aberavon (Mr. Cove), that the father maintains the child, but we cannot emphasise too strongly that the mere fact of providing maintenance, the mere fact of providing a few shillings a week in support of a child, does not mean the care of the child.
All the care of the child rests with the mother. It is she who has to buy the clothing, to feed the child, and to look after the child. Indeed, I would say that the care of the child is far more important than the maintenance of the child, and it is a truly masculine point of view to consider entirely the maintenance, apart from the care of the child. The whole responsibility for the care of the child falls upon the mother. I believe I am right in saying that if there is an accident at home, it is the mother, not the father, who is held responsible for the accident to the child, and the responsibility for the care of the child is as great as, if not greater than, the responsibility for the maintenance.
I have more than respect, I have admiration for the Noble Lady the Member for Kinross and Western (Duchess of Atholl) and the work which she has done in respect of education, but really I cannot imagine a more disastrous Amendment than hers. At least, there may be a family dispute, but in the Amendment of the Noble Lady—
The hon. Member cannot discuss the merits of an Amendment which we have not yet reached.
I will not dwell on that point, except to say that it has been referred to already. With respect to the Noble Lord the Member for Hastings (Lord E. Percy), who laid so great an emphasis on the difficulty of the mother having to go in person for the money, my experience has been that the women who have to draw their pensions at the post office have no objection to going in person, and after all the father would have to go in person. I am sorry the Noble Lord has left his seat, but I cannot think that that is an insuperable difficulty to the Amendment moved by the hon. Member for the Combined English Universities (Miss Rathbone), and I am glad the Minister has accepted it.
There are three quite clear alternatives before us. The first is that in the Bill, in which we lay it down that the local authority shall pay to the father; the second is the Amendment in which again we instruct local authorities that they shall pay to the mother; and the third is this Amendment, in which we leave freedom to the local authorities. As one who has worked for many years on a local authority, I am strongly in favour of leaving freedom to local authorities wherever it can reasonably be done, and I cannot conceive any reason why we should not leave it to them in this case. My hon. Friend said that, by leaving it to the local authorities and suggesting that in the event of a dispute certain things may happen, we are asking them to act as Solomons and putting a most difficult task on them. I am sure he did not mean that seriously. He could not suggest that local authorities are not capable of making bylaws to decide such a question. I imagine any local authority would consider the matter and would make a bylaw that it should be paid in the first instance either to the father or to the mother.
Personally, I rather prefer the mother, but it probably wants experience, and leaving it to the local authority has the great advantage that experience would gradually show which is right. Bylaws are more flexible than Acts of Parliament and the whole point of leaving it to local authorities is that the bylaws can be modified as time goes on and the best method can be adopted. The point my hon. Friend made about the difficulty of disputes is not serious. You have to decide that in normal cases the allowance shall be paid to one or the other, and, if in a particular case that is unsatisfactory for one reason or another, you have somehow to determine the dispute, and come to some conclusion as to what is the right course. I think this is by far the best solution of the difficulty. It is not a very great difficulty. I am glad to hear that the Minister has decided to accept it, and I hope the Committee will do the same.
I cannot argue with lawyers and I cannot go into the law, but it seems to me that the whole point of the maintenance grant is to help the mother to keep the child while the State is educating it. If that be so, it seems to me only common sense to let the money go directly to the mother. There may be some fathers who will use it wisely, but there are a great many who would just consider it an addition to their wages. There are good mothers and good fathers.
You say that a great many fathers would do that?
If you see what is spent in drink and gambling you will find that men are doing most of it.
Women as well. I merely suggest that the Noble Lady should not injure her case by making allegations against large numbers of fathers.
I did not say large numbers. However, the whole point is to help the mother to keep the home while the children are being educated. I regret that we did not take the first Amendment on the Paper.
The selection of Amendments lies with me.
I was not here to hear why it was not taken.
If the Noble Lady had been here she would have known that I did not select it.
I am sorry you did not select it. I ask the Committee to back up the principle that this grant should go to the mother direct. I am sure that is what we all want. I am certain most of the fathers would prefer it. As for the difficulty of going to get it, I do not think any of us would find much difficulty in going anywhere if we were going to get a little money. I am certain the mothers will not mind if they know they are going to get it direct. No one could argue that the mother is not the one who has practically the whole responsibility of the child. This small grant really goes in food, and there is a much greater chance of getting food and clothing if it goes direct to the mother. I hope we shall not stand too much by the law—Section this or Section that. Let us break a few of those rules just today—it will not hurt—because it is a new House and a new conscience, and this is a new principle entirely. It is the first instalment of family allowances, whether we like it or not, and, if it is going to be a family allowance, the whole point is to help the mothers.
I think the hon. Member for Withington (Mr. Simon) has mistaken the effect of the Amendment. He referred to the possibility of local education authorities making bylaws to give the maintenance allowance either to the father or to the mother in the first instance. He has a much greater experience of local government than I have, and I am subject to correction, but, as I read the Amendment, it lays down definitely that there is no question of any such bylaws; in fact, the only possible procedure would be for the family to decide who shall make the application. If it is not so decided the local education authority will have to decide it.
That is my own interpretation, and I hope it will work out simply that it is a domestic decision in the normal case and only in the event of a dispute will the local authority have to step in.
I am very pleased to have the hon. Lady's interpretation, because I really think that, whether that is a good thing or a bad, the objection of the hon. Member for Devonport (Mr. Hore-Belisha) to the local education authority being turned into a matrimonial Solomon is greater than the hon. Member for Withington seemed to think. I also serve on a local education authority, and I do not look forward with any pleasure to having to decide the rights and wrongs of any disputes that may arise. The hon. Member for Devonport said disputes would not arise. He is a bachelor. Whether he would learn to the contrary if that were not so, I do not know, but disputes do arise through matters quite apart from the question of the maintenance and education of the children. This is making an opportunity for enlarging those disputes. To put a hypothetical and, I hope, a rare case, but still a possible one, suppose that the husband and wife, for any reason, do not get on. This passes into law. Both think that they are going to get hold of the management of the 5s. and each, puts in a claim and the local education authority has to decide between them. It is trying the local education authority very high. It is putting on it a job which is not its business, and it is doing no good to the families in question.
There are two possible alternatives which will work. One is to make the father the general rule, and the mother the exception, and the other is the converse. I prefer the Bill as it stands, and I am old-fashioned enough to believe that the man should be the economic head of the house. I know there are hon. Members who take the contrary view, but I think this hybrid Amendment is the worst thing that could possibly happen, because I believe it will cause a lot of trouble both for the father and the mother and, above all, for the already overtaxed and overworked local education authorities.
The debate has to some extent drifted into a general discussion as to whether the father or the mother should be the economic head of the family, and I think there is not much doubt as to the general sense of the Committee upon what is desirable. The Committee are agreed that it is the child who is the person for whose benefit the grant is made. Some of the speeches that have been delivered to-day have rather ignored that essential and elementary fact. Apart from that, we are all agreed, also, that while the grant is to be for the benefit of the child, we are desirous that the medium through which it shall reach the child shall be the person who is the most suited to receive it. In some cases it will be the father, and in some the mother. It is no good generalising whether fathers are worse than mothers in some of the social habits to which reference has been made. Some fathers are good, and some bad, and some mothers are good and some bad. Surely, it ought to be possible to arrive at some words which will put into the Act what I believe is the general sense of the Committee.
I do not like the wording of the Amendment. It is rather unfortunate to introduce that class of phrase, "in the event of a dispute." I should have thought we could do it in a much better way if we said the person entitled to receive the maintenance allowance shall be the father or the mother as the local education authority shall see fit. It may be that the local authority can do that by means of bylaws, or it may be that in particular instances they will have to come to an actual decision. After all, members of local education authorities are fairly intelligent people as a rule and are fairly well acquainted with the district in which they live and have to operate. I suggest that the Amendment should be withdrawn and that between now and Report the President of the Board of Education should consult with his advisers, and see whether it will not be possible to frame some words which will meet the general feeling of the Committee.
I am not sure that what my hon. Friend wants is what the Committee want. I think that the hon. Member who has moved the Amendment really wants the authority to be enabled to decide en bloc that it shall be the father or the mother. I do not think that that is what the Committee want.
I should like to identify myself with the speech of the hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Wales (Mr. Evans), who spoke from the Liberal benches. I am astonished to find myself in agreement with the Noble Lady the Member for the Sutton Division of Plymouth (Viscountess Astor) for the first time, I think, in our Parliamentary careers. The hon. Member was, I think, mistaken in the reading of the Amendment; it only gives the local authorities the right, in special conditions, such as a dispute, of deciding in each individual case. It cannot cover anything in the nature of a general bylaw. Waving that matter aside, the speech which has just been delivered from the Liberal benches showed what the Committee really desire. First and foremost, it is the welfare and the best interests of the children concerned. I agree that, generally speaking, a child of 14 is too young to have the money paid direct to it weekly, and that we are thrown back upon the parents. This Amendment proposes to leave the matter as a sort of dual right.
It is our duty to give a lead in this matter. Although as a mere man I rather like to flatter myself upon being the head of my own household, I am satisfied that, when it comes to a question of the maintenance of a child in the interests of education, in the vast number of cases it is the mother's job. It is the mother who has to look after the child. She has to see that it has proper boots when it goes to school, and that it receives proper additions to its food and so on. However good a father may be, generally speaking, this is really a mother's job. The common-sense idea is for us to decide who is the better person to look after the maintenance of the child—I suggest the mother—and give the local authorities the discretionary authority, after they have found that a parent is abusing that right, to pay the money to someone else, to wit, the other parent. The President of the Board of Education was a little too previous in accepting the Amendment as it stands. I wish to support the suggestion that he shall, between now and the Report stage, take into consideration practical suggestions for dealing with the Amendment, and endeavour to produce something which will represent the general feeling of the members of the Committee and so avoid some of the very practical difficulties which have been pointed out to him in speeches from both sides of the Committee.
I wish to support the last two speeches which have been made. The point which we are discussing is which of the parents, the father or mother, is most likely to use the money for the benefit of the child. I cannot understand how there can be any doubt upon the matter. The mother is essentially the person to whom the contribution should go, as she is the most likely to be directly interested and to spend it in furthering the welfare of the child, either in clothing or additional food. It may be a great temptation to the father, on receiving the 5s., not to hand the whole of it over to the mother, who is, of course, chiefly responsible for buying necessaries for the family. If the Minister is able, between now and the Report stage, to see his way to put into this Bill something which will give effect to the declarations which have been made on both sides of the Committee, he will be doing a sensible thing. Whatever our views may be, the Amendment does not meet the position either one way or the other. It will not give local authorities power to decide to whom the allowances shall be paid. The Minister has accepted the Amendment rather too hastily, and I think that after a little further consideration of the matter he might be able to meet the general wishes of the Committee.
I agree with my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Chippenham (Captain Cazalet), and previous speakers, that the mother is the person who does the most for the child and for the welfare of the child, but we cannot get away from the fact that the father is legally responsible for the maintenance of the child. As long as that is the case, I do not see how the mother can be the person to whom primarily the allowances shall be paid. An hon. Gentleman below the Gangway stated two analogies, neither of which seems to me to meet the case. He stated the case of the payment of maternity benefit to the mother, but I submit that that is not an analogy at all. Maternity benefit is not paid to the mother on behalf of her child, but for the expenses of her own confinement. The other analogy which the hon. Gentleman gave was that of family allowances. Family allowances would be disastrous in their effect upon the father because they would take away the father's responsibility for the maintenance of his child.
It is this factor which seems to be so important here. We should maintain the sense of responsibility which the law at present places upon the father. I cannot be a party to any dwindling of the responsibility of the father. I agree that a father may sometimes be tempted not to make the best use of the money, and perhaps may not realise his responsibility as much as a wife realises hers; she has the children with her and can see what are their needs. But I would say: "Let us do everything we can to help the father to realise his responsibility. Do not let us take away from him that responsibility and say, 'Oh, it does not matter whether you look after your child or do not; we wish to put the responsibility upon the mother.'" I cannot imagine anything more disastrous than to deprive the father of his sacred responsibility.
The arguments which have been used from the Liberal benches are very unconvincing. I have been rather amused that there are on those benches two hon. Members suggesting that a bylaw procedure is possible under this Measure. If the hon. Members would be a little more regular in their attendance during the proceedings upon this Bill and follow them a little more closely, they would realise that the right hon. Gentleman has swept the bylaw machinery out of existence. But apart from the fact that the bylaw procedure would not meet the case, we all want to see things done in the interests of the individual child. Many of us feel that the Bill does not allow sufficiently, or, indeed, at all for the case in which the father does not bring home as much of his wages as he ought to do, where he does not bring home the whole of the 5s. That is why I have put down an Amendment, to which at this stage I am not allowed to refer. I submit that there are insuperable objections to the Amendment which has been moved, and I hope very much that the right hon. Gentleman will think over some of the objections and will, in particular, remember what is the law to-day which makes the father responsible for the maintenance of his child. To say that either the father or mother should receive the allowance seems inconsistent with this.
I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to think over this question with his legal adviser and see if he cannot arrive at some solution which will give a safeguard to the child when the father may not make the best use of the money, and yet will not put the local authority in the ridiculous position of deciding matrimonial cases, or giving the allowance to the parent who first hurries off to the local education office to apply for it. I do not think that the Equal Guardianship Act, cited by the hon. Member for the Combined Universities (Miss Rathbone) is an analogy. Such cases are necessarily decided by a court of law, but here is the case of a court quite incompetent to decide these cases.
May I ask the Noble Lady whether she does not think that the local education authority means, in fact, the people who have behind them the advice of the schoolmaster or schoolmistress who has known the child for six years, and the school attendance officers, who are ordinarily in a better position to say who is the right sort of person, the father or the mother, than a court of law composed of elderly magistrates who can hardly hear either side?
I have an Amendment later on which would give the Authority power to pay the allowance to the mother if they see fit, but I do not want disputes to be invited. I hope, therefore, that the right hon. Gentleman will give this question his further consideration, and that he will, perhaps, bring in an Amendment which will give greater satisfaction.
We have heard an able representation of the case for the father from the Noble Lady the Member for Kinross and Western (Duchess of Atholl), and it is exceedingly interesting to find that the case for the father should come from that side of the Committee. I should like to say a few words in favour of the case for the mother as opposed to the case for the father. The only point upon which we are really agreed, I think, is that the particular Amendment on the Order Paper is not the most desirable method of dealing with this problem. It leaves the case open, first of all, for either the father or mother, or both, to make application, and then for the education authority to act in a judicial capacity between them.
The Committee ought to give a definite lead in this matter. We ought to be prepared to say whether, in regard to this particular allowance, it is really more desirable that the father or the mother should, in the majority of cases have the handling of the money. I am not moved by the admirable legal arguments of the Noble Lady. I am not very much concerned whether in law the father is responsible for the maintenance of his child. The father is normally the earner of the income and the mother is normally the spender of that income in so far as the maintenance of the home is concerned. The father has the power in law and in fact to determine how much of the money that he earns shall go into the home for the maintenance of the home and how much shall be retained for his own private expenditure, whatever the nature of that expenditure may be. In addition to the money that the father earns, the House, in raising the school-leaving age for children, has decided that a certain amount of money shall be allowed for the maintenance of the child. That money is not in any sense the earnings of the father. It is not money on the receipt of which the father can decide whether or not it should go to the mother. It is in place of what would be the earnings of the child.
The probability is that if we had not raised the age, the child would have gone into an occupation and would have earned money. Would it give the money to the father or to the mother? In the great majority of cases it would give it to the mother towards paying for its keep. The Committee has not recognised that aspect of the problem. This maintenance allowance is not a grant given to the father or to the mother; it is a grant made to the child, because by law that child is being debarred from earning money. If we do not give the money direct to the child, the most desirable thing, in common practice, is that the mother should receive it. That is why I think the Amendment which was put forward from these benches is the best solution of the problem.
The Noble Lady must not throw responsibility upon those who sit here for our not having taken an interest in these debates. On this Bill we who sit on these benches have taken as much interest as hon. Members in any part of the House, and we are not going to allow it to go without challenge that we have been neglectful. The fact that one hon. Member had failed to understand exactly what this particular Amendment would do, is not a circumstance that is entirely unknown either in connection with a Clause or an Amendment. I have heard many
appeals to the Law Officers of the Crown that they should explain what is or is not the effect of a particular Amendment. I hope the Noble Lady will realise that we do not accept her criticism of us in that respect. I urge that the Amendment should be withdrawn, as it would not be acceptable, and, seeing that our Amendments have not been called, I would suggest that between now and the Report stage the right hon. Gentleman should bring in a form of words which would definitely put the claim of the mother first.
rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
Question put, "That the Question be now put."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 248; Noes, 167.
Division No. 72.] AYES. [5.50 p.m. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Dukes, C. Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Duncan, Charles Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne) Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Ede, James Chuter Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Aitchison, Rt. Hon. Craigie M. Edmunds, J. E. Jewett, Rt. Hon. F. W. Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro') Edwards, E. (Morpeth) Jowitt, Sir W. A. (Preston) Ammon, Charles George Elmley, Viscount Kelly, W. T. Angell, Norman Foot, Isaac Kennedy, Thomas Arnott, John Forgan, Dr. Robert Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Aske, Sir Robert Freeman, Peter Knight, Holford Attlee, Clement Richard Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George Ayles, Walter Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.) Lathan, G. Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston) George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) Law, Albert (Belton) Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley) George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea) Law, A. (Rossendale) Barnes, Alfred John Gibbins, Joseph Lawrence, Susan Barr, James Gibson, H. M. (Lanes, Mossley) Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge) Batey, Joseph Gill, T. H. Lawson, John James Bellamy, Albert Gillett, George M. Leach, W. Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood Glassey, A. E. Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern) Bennett, William (Battersea, South) Gossling, A. G. Lees, J. Benson, G. Gould, F. Lewis, T. (Southampton) Bentham, Dr. Ethel Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Lindley, Fred W. Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret Granville, E. Logan, David Gilbert Bowen, J. W. Gray, Milner Longbottom, A. W. Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne). Longden, F. Broad, Francis Alfred Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Lovat Fraser, J. A. Brockway, A. Fenner Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.) Lowth, Thomas Bromfield, William Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Lunn, William Bromley, J. Groves, Thomas E. Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) Brooke, W. Grundy, Thomas W. MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham) Brothers, M. Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw) Brown, C. W. E. (Notts, Mansfield) Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) McElwee, A. Brown, W. J. (Wolverhampton, West) Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) McEntee, V. L. Burgess, F. G. Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.) McGovern, J. (Glasgow, Shettleston) Buxton, C. R. (Yorks, W. R. Elland) Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn) MacLaren, Andrew Cameron, A. G. Hardie, George D. MacNeill-Weir, L. Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.) Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Charleton, H. C. Hastings, Dr. Somerville Marcus, M. Chater, Daniel Haycock, A. W. Markham, S. F. Church, Major A. G. Hayday, Arthur Marley, J. Cluse, W. S. Hayes, John Henry Marshall, Fred Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) Mathers, George Cocks, Frederick Seymour Herriotts, J. Matters, L. W. Compton, Joseph Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth) Maxton, James Cove, William G. Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Messer, Fred Cowan, D. M. Hoffman, P. C. Middleton, G. Daggar, George Hopkin, Daniel Mills, J. E. Dallas, George Horrabin, J. F. Milner, Major J. Dalton, Hugh Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) Montague, Frederick Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Isaacs, George Morgan, Dr. H. B. Day, Harry Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Morley, Ralph Denman, Hon. R. D. John, William (Rhondda, West) Morris, Rhys Hopkins Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh) Romeril, H. G. Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S. W.) Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South) Rosbotham, D. S. T. Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.) Rowson, Guy Thurtle, Ernest Mort, D. L. Russell, Richard John (Eddisbury) Tinker, John Joseph Moses, J. J. H. Salter, Dr. Alfred Toole, Joseph Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent) Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen) Tout, W. J. Mosley, Sir Oswald (Smethwick) Sanders, W. S. Townend, A. E. Muff, G. Sandham, E. Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Muggeridge, H. T. Sawyer, G. F. Vaughan, D. J. Naylor, T. E. Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Viant, S. P. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Walkden, A. G. Noel Baker, P. J. Sherwood, G. H. Walker, J. Noel-Buxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N.) Shield, George William Wallace, H. W. Oldfield, J. R. Shiels, Dr. Drummond Wallhead, Richard C. Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley) Shillaker, J. F. Watkins, F. C. Owen, H. F. (Hereford) Shinwell, E. Wellock, Wilfred Palin, John Henry Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Welsh, James (Paisley) Paling, Wilfrid Simmons, C. J. West, F. R. Palmer, E. T. Simon, E. D. (Manch'ter, Withington) Westwood, Joseph Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood) Perry, S. F. Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Wilkinson, Ellen C. Pethick- Lawrence, F. W. Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) Williams, David (Swansea, East) Phillips, Dr. Marion Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley) Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Picton-Turbervill, Edith Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Pole, Major D. G. Smith, Tom (Pontefract) Wilson, J. (Oldham) Potts, John S. Smith, W. R. (Norwich) Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Price, M. P. Snell, Harry Winterton, G. E. (Leicester, Loughb'gh) Pybus, Percy John Sorensen, R. Wise, E. F. Ramsay, T. B. Wilson Stamford, Thomas W. Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff) Rathbone, Eleanor Strachey, E. J. St. Loe Raynes, W. R. Strauss, G. R. TELLERS FOR THE AYES .—.— Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Sutton, J. E. Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. William Whiteley. Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees) Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln)
NOES. Albery, Irving James Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l., W.) Dawson, Sir Philip Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Dugdale, Capt. T. L. Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) Astor, Maj. Hon. John J. (Kent, Dover) Dudgeon, Major C. R. Makins, Brigadier-General E. Astor, Viscountess Eden, Captain Anthony Margesson, Captain H. D. Atholl, Duchess of Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.) Marjoribanks, Edward Atkinson, C. Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) Meller, R. J. Baillie-Hamilton, Hon. Charles W. Everard, W. Lindsay Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley) Falle, Sir Bertram G. Mond, Hon. Henry Balniel, Lord Ferguson, Sir John Moore, Sir Newton J. (Richmond) Beaumont, M. W. Fielden, E. B. Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Bellairs, Commander Carlyon Fremantle, Lieut. -Colonel Francis E. Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester) Berry, Sir George Galbraith, J. F. W. Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Betterton, Sir Henry B. Ganzoni, Sir John Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld) Boothby, R. J. G. Glyn, Major R. G. C. Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert Bourne, Captain Robert Croft. Gower, Sir Robert Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Peake, Captain Osbert Boyce, H. L. Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Brass, Captain Sir William Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter Pilditch, Sir Philip Briscoe, Richard George Gritten, W. G. Howard Pownall, Sir Assheton Brown, Ernest (Leith) Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Ramsbotham, H. Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Gunston, Captain D. W. Reid, David D. (County Down) Buchan, John Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Remer, John R. Buckingham, Sir H. Hammersley, S. S. Rentoul, Sir Gervals S. Bullock, Captain Malcolm Hanbury, C. Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch't'sy) Butler, R. A. Harris, Percy A. Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Hartington, Marquess of Rothschild, J. de Campbell, E. T. Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Ruggles-Brise, Lieut. -Colonel E. A. Carver, Major W. H. Haslam, Henry C. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Castle Stewart, Earl of Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Salmon, Major I. Cautley, Sir Henry S. Heneage, Lieut.-Col Arthur P. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.) Herbert, Sir Dennis (Hertford) Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D. Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston) Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller Savery, S. S. Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C Clydesdale, Marquess of Hore-Bellsha, Leslie Smithers, Waldron Cobb, Sir Cyril Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Stanley, Lord (Fylde) Cohen, Major J. Brunel Hurd, Percy A. Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland) Colfox, Major William Philip Hurst, Sir Gerald B. Stewart, W. J. (Belfast South) Colman, N. C. D. Hutchison, Maj. -Gen. Sir R. Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F. Colville, Major D. J. Iveagh, Countess of Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A. Cranborne, Viscount Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton) Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Kindersley, Major G. M. Thomson, Sir F. Crookshank, Capt. H. C. Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton) Tinne, J. A. Crichton-Stuart, Lord C. Leighton, Major B. E. P. Todd, Capt. A. J. Dalrymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey Lewis, Oswald (Colchester) Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Llewellin, Major J. J. Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey) Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton Wardlaw-Milne, J. S. Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Waterhouse, Captain Charles Withers, Sir John James TELLERS FOR THE NOES .—.— Waylard, Sir William A. Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount Sir George Penny and Sir Victor Wells, Sydney R. Womersley, W. J. Warrender. Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay) Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley
Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Schedule," put accordingly, and negatived.
Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 255; Noes, 159.
Division No. 73.] AYES. [6.3 p.m. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Gill, T. H. MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw) Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Gillett, George M. McElwee, A. Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Glassey, A. E. McEntee, V. L. Aitchison, Rt. Hon. Craigie M. Gossling, A. G. McGovern, J. (Glasgow, Shettleston) Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro') Gould, F. MacLaren, Andrew Ammon, Charles George Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Angell, Norman Granville, E. Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Arnott, John Gray, Milner Marcus, M. Aske, Sir Robert Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne) Markham, S. F. Astor, Viscountess Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Marley, J. Attlee, Clement Richard Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.) Marshall, F. Ayles, Walter Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Mathers, George Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Groves, Thomas E. Matters, L. W. Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley) Grundy, Thomas W. Maxton, James Barnes, Alfred John Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Messer, Fred Barr, James Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Middleton, G. Batey, Joseph Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) Mills, J. E. Bellamy, Albert Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.) Milner, Major J. Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn) Montague, Frederick Bennett, William (Battersea, South) Hardie, George D. Morgan, Dr. H. B. Benson, G. Harris, Percy A. Morley, Ralph Bentham, Dr. Ethel Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh) Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret Hastings, Dr. Somerville Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South) Bowen, J. W. Haycock, A. W. Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.) Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Mayday, Arthur Mort, D. L. Broad, Francis Alfred Hayes, John Henry Moses, J. J. H. Brockway, A. Fenner Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent) Bromfield, William Herriotts, J. Mosley, Sir Oswald (Smethwick) Bromley, J. Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth) Muff, G. Brooke, W. Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Muggeridge, H. T. Brothers, M. Hoffman, P. C. Naylor, T. E. Brown, C. W. E. (Notts. Mansfield) Hopkin, Daniel Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Brown, Ernest (Leith) Hore-Bellsha, Leslie Noel Baker, P. J. Brown, W. J. (Wolverhampton, West) Horrabin, J. F. Noel-Buxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N.) Burgess, F. G. Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) Oldfield, J. R. Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland) Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R. Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley) Cameron, A. G. Isaacs, George Owen, H. F. (Hereford) Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.) Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Palin, John Henry Charleton, H. C. John, William (Rhondda, West) Paling, Wilfrid Chater, Daniel Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Palmer, E. T. Church, Major A. G. Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Cluse, W. S. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Perry, S. F. Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Cocks, Frederick Seymour Jowitt, Sir W. A. (Preston) Phillips, Dr. Marion Compton, Joseph Kelly, W. T. Picton-Turbervill, Edith Cove, William G. Kennedy, Thomas Pole, Major D. G. Daggar, George Kenworthy Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Potts, John S. Dallas, George Knight, Holford Price, M. P. Dalton, Hugh Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton) Pybus, Percy John Davies, E. C. (Montgomery) Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George Ramsay, T. B. Wilson Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Lathan, G. Rathbone, Eleanor Day, Harry Law, Albert (Bolton) Raynes, W. R. Denman, Hon. R. D. Law, A. (Rossendale) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Dudgeon, Major C. R. Lawrence, Susan Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees) Dukes, C. Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge) Romeril, H. G. Duncan, Charles Lawson, John James Rosbotham, D. S. T. Ede, James Chuter Leach, W. Rothschild, J. de Edmunds, J. E. Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern) Rowson, Guy Edwards, E. (Morpeth) Lees, J. Russell, Richard John (Eddisbury) Elmley, Viscount Lewis, T. (Southampton) Salter, Dr. Alfred Foot, Isaac Lindley, Fred W. Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen) Forgan, Dr. Robert Logan, David Gilbert Sanders, W. S. Freeman, Peter Longbottom, A. W. Sandham, E. Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) Longden, F. Sawyer, G. F. Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.) Lovat-Fraser, J. A. Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) Lowth, Thomas Shepherd, Arthur Lewis George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea) Lunn, William Sherwood, G. H. Gibbins, Joseph Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) Shield, George William Gibson, H. M. (Lanes, Mossley) MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham) Shiels, Dr. Drummond Shillaker, J. F. Sutton, J. E. Watkins, F. C. Shinwell, E. Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln) Wellock, Wilfred Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S. W.) West, F. R. Simmons, C. J. Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plalstow) Westwood, Joseph Simon, E. D. (Manch'ter, Withington) Thurtle, Ernest Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood) Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tillett, Ben Wilkinson, Ellen C. Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Tinker, John Joseph Williams, David (Swansea, East) Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) Toole, Joseph Williams Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley) Tout, W. J. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Townend, A. E. Wilson, J. (Oldham) Smith, Tom (Pontefract) Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Wilson R. J. (Jarrow) Smith, W. R. (Norwich) Vaughan, D. J. Winterton, G. E. (Leicester, Loughb'gh) Snell, Harry Viant, S. P. Wise, E. F. Sorensen, R. Walkden, A. G. Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff) Stamford, Thomas W. Walker, J. Strachey, E. J. St. Loe Wallace, H. W. TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —— Strauss, G. R. Wellhead, Richard C. Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. William Whiteley.
NOES. Albery, Irving James Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) O'Neill, Sir H. Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l., W.) Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Everard, W. Lindsay Peake, Capt. Osbert Astor, Maj. Hon. John J.(Kent, Dover) Falle, Sir Bertram G. Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Atholl, Duchess of Ferguson, Sir John Pilditch, Sir Philip Atkinson, C. Fielden, E. B. Power, Sir John Cecil Baillie-Hamilton, Hon. Charles W. Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Pownall, Sir Assheton Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley) Galbraith, J. F. W. Ramsbotham, H. Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet) Ganzoni, Sir John Rawson, Sir Cooper Bainiel, Lord Glyn, Major R. G. C. Reid, David D. (County Down) Beaumont, M. W. Gower, Sir Robert Remer, John R. Bellairs, Commander Carlyon Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Rentoul, Sir Gervals S. Berry, Sir George Grattan-Doyle Sir N. Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch't'sy) Betterton, Sir Henry B. Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Boothby, R. J. G. Gritten, W. G. Howard Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. Bourne, Captain Robert Croft. Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart Gunston, Captain D. W. Salmon, Major I. Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W. Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Boyce, H. L. Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart Bracken, B. Hammersley, S. S. Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D. Brass, Captain Sir William Hanbury, C. Savery, S. S. Briscoe, Richard George Hartington, Marquess of Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Smithers, Waldron Buchan, John Haslam, Henry C. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Buckingham, Sir H. Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Stanley, Lord (Fylde) Bullock, Captain Malcolm Heneage, Lieut.-Col Arthur P. Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland) Burton, Colonel H. W. Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. Stewart, W. J. (Belfast South) Butler, R. A. Herbert, Sir Dennis (Hertford) Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F. Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A. Campbell, E. T. Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton) Carver, Major W. H. Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. Thomson, Sir F. Cautley, Sir Henry S. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Tinne, J. A. Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Hurd, Percy A. Todd, Capt. A. J. Chamberlain Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.) Hurst, Sir Gerald B. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston) Iveagh, Countess of Turton, Robert Hugh Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey) Clydesdale, Marquess of Kindersley, Major G. M. Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert Cobb, Sir Cyril Little, Dr. E. Graham Wardlaw-Milne, J. S. Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George Llewellin, Major J. J. Waterhouse, Captain Charles Cohen, Major J. Brunel Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey Wayland, Sir William A. Colfox, Major William Philip Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) Wells, Sydney R. Colman, N. C. D. Makins, Brigadier-General E. Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay) Colville, Major D. J. Margesson, Captain H. D. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Cowan, D. M. Marjoribanks, Edward Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Cranborne, Viscount Meller, R. J. Withers, Sir John James Crichton-Stuart, Lord C. Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Mond, Hon. Henry Womersley, W. J. Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) Moore, Sir Newton J. (Richmond) Wood. Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley Dalrymple- White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Morris, Rhys Hopkins Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester) TELLERS FOR THE NOES .—.— Dawson, Sir Philip Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Sir George Penny and Sir Victor Warrender. Dugdale, Capt. T. L. Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld) Eden, Captain Anthony Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert
The next Amendment I call is that in the name of the hon. Member for Cambridge (Sir D. Newton)—in page 5, line 5, to leave out paragraphs 2 and 3, and to insert two new paragraphs.
On a point of Order. May I draw your attention to the Amendment in my name—in page 5, line 4, at the end, to insert the words:
"2. If the claimant is an institution not conducted for private profit, and the child is being wholly maintained out of the general funds of the institution, the institution shall be qualified to receive a maintenance allowance under this Act."
I want to ensure that you are deliberately not selecting this Amendment with regard to an institution, as it is a point of some substance.
It may be a point of substance, but in Clause 1 we have already decided that no maintenance allowance shall be payable in respect of any child who attends school as a boarder or resides in an institution.
But surely that provision clearly means that no maintenance allowance shall be paid to the parent of a child in an institution? May we not determine whether maintenance allowance shall be paid to the institution?
What we have decided is that—
"no maintenance allowance shall be payable under this Sub-section in respect of any child who attends school as a boarder or resides in an institution or is boarded out under the provisions of the principal Act or any other enactment."
I beg to move, in page 5, line 5, to leave out paragraphs 2 and 3, and to insert instead thereof the words:
Those are the two conditions that have to be fulfilled under the Bill as it is printed. Parents have to qualify according to the Schedule. The Schedule prescribes that the parent shall be qualified to receive the allowance if his income from all sources does not exceed a certain limit. We then have to find out what is the prescribed limit. The limit the Bill states has to be prescribed by regulations made by the Board of Education. We maintain that the claim form is so printed as to preclude a local authority from objecting to the accuracy of the statements made by an applicant for this special allowance. I respectfully ask the President of the Board of Education carefully to consider the recommendations of the special advisory committee, representative of all local education authorities. Why did he turn down those recommendations? Less than a year ago, on 19th December, 1929, the President of the Board of Education said: per head; that when the family income is between 9s. and 12s. a 5s. grant can be made at the discretion of the local authority; that in cases under the 9s. the weekly allowance should be given as a matter of right.
When money has to be taken from the taxpayer and the ratepayer we hold that adequate and proper safeguards should be provided. The Bill proposes that local authorities should be told to pay, as it were, on demand, without adequate checking. It would seem that the demand can be challenged only in a criminal court. In other words it is likely not to be challenged at all, and the money will be paid out whether or not it is deserved and required. The Bill allows practically no discretion to the local authorities. The local authorities will become the undiscriminating agents of the Board of Education. Anyone who is associated with local authorities knows how difficult it is for them to collect their rates now.
It has been suggested that any investigation made by local authorities must of necessity be both irritating and offensive. Such criticism as that comes either from ill-informed persons or from very interested sources. Unfortunately, it is only too true that some people do regard the flagrant abuse of public funds as a perfectly justifiable thing for a local authority to undertake if it can "get away with it." Local authorities have had some experience in this matter of allowances. They have administered maintenance allowances for secondary schools for many years and have built up a system of awards based upon parental means, after due inquiry and after finding out what the facts really are. That system has been carried out by local authorities, and, so far as I know, has never been stigmatised as either offensive or irritating. There are 150,000 pupils now receiving free education in secondary schools, and over £500,000 is now being paid every year in maintenance allowances.
A flat rate allowance, based, as the Bill proposes, on unchecked and unverified parental statements, will assuredly lead to a considerable measure of abuse. Moreover, a distinction cannot be drawn between maintenance allowance given in respect of secondary education and that given in respect of elementary education. The proposal of the Bill must inevitably lead to a universal system of uniform grants, given practically without any investigation or inquiry. That in turn must lead to a great increase in expenditure. The financial memorandum issued with the Bill indicates how great that cost will be. It is stated that, in the course of a few years, the amount—will be no less than £8,000,000. But the Memorandum also states that it is not practicable to make a close estimate of the sum involved. It is, therefore, not unreasonable to imagine that an even larger figure than £8,000,000 is involved. I look with great alarm at the growing national expenditure and the expenditure from rates resulting from this and other Measures of the Government. In these very dark and difficult times it is right that some attempt should be made to keep the expenditure within reasonable limits, and it is with that end in view that the Amendment is moved.
The proposal of the Amendment is a reversion to the plan which the Government discarded after the discussions in the summer. It is quite true that I myself asked the local authorities to appoint a committee, and that the recommendations mentioned were made by that committee, but after they had been criticised inside and outside the House in certain respects, a considerable amount of feeling was exhibited against some of the details. The proposals would have excluded many needy and hard cases. The scales which the Government are now proposing set out a very much higher limit, but that limit is not seriously higher than that adopted by one important part of the local authorities, namely, London. One advantage of having a very much higher limit is that a great deal less scrutiny and inquiry is necessary, as the limit includes categories of workers, such as agricultural labourers, who all come within the limit. There is also the great advantage over the proposals put forward in this Amendment, that there is no complication caused by the calculation of rent which would require inquiry in almost every case. I hope, therefore, that the Committee will adopt the simpler procedure in the Bill, that is to say adopt the proposed income limits which will be calculated on the basis of income from all sources and the number of dependant children.
This is an instance of what invariably happens and what must happen in connection with this kind of legislation. We bring forward here on behalf of large bodies of responsible local authorities the very plan which those authorities recommended at the invitation of the right hon. Gentleman, and which the right hon. Gentleman and the Government adopted. This proposal represents, as the right hon. Gentleman said, the policy of the Government last summer. That policy is now being discarded. So many things have been discarded by the Government in the course of their cogitations on this Education Bill! They invited the local authorities to advise them. They accepted and adopted the recommendations of the local authorities. They produced those recommendations to the House—but now— replied? So far as we know, he has never said, "This is enough; this is fair. You ought not to give more." He has only said, "Well, this is as much as we can afford at the present moment, and we will wait a little before putting a heavier burden on the taxpayers."
I am asking the Committee to observe that this is the inevitable history of any proposals of this kind and any legislation of this kind. What is the only logical limit to maintenance allowances if you are going to give them as of right? The only logical limit is the amount of wages which the child might otherwise earn, and short of that there is no stopping place. The Government and those responsible for proposals of the kind in the Bill are sliding down a slippery slope and spending more and more money year after year, to the delight of hon. Gentlemen opposite, whose only idea of government is to fork out more and more money. [ Interruption. ] The only thing in which they take the slightest interest is a dole and then another dole. [ Laughter .]When we bring forward an Amendment of this kind representing the Government's original intention—the Government's intention before they ran away from their policy—all their followers can do is to laugh heartily that anyone should presume to repeat now the absurdities which their own leaders uttered six months ago. I particularly draw the Committee's attention to this matter because of one remark which fell from the right hon. Gentleman, and which shows the state of mind into which a Government gets, when it starts on this kind of rake's progress. The right hon. Gentleman said that the present proposals of the Government were very much what the London County Council recommended on the original committee. What an argument! Does not the right hon. Gentleman know that the scales of teachers' salaries, the scales of expenditure on every department of education, are higher in London than any part of the country? The whole basis of the present teachers' scale is that it has been recognised that expenditure in London should be higher than in other parts of the country. I am not going to justify that now. I sometimes think that London has accustomed itself to doing things on the grand scale.
Land values are higher in London than anywhere else.
I am glad to see that the bee in the hon. Gentleman's bonnet buzzes just as merrily now as at any other time. I sometimes think that London assumes too much in regard to things being more expensive here than in the rest of the country. But what would happen to the educational expenditure of the country if London were taken, not as the maximum, but as the norm, the standard for the whole country? That is an instance of the sloppiness and flabbiness of mind which attacks Governments who do not legislate on any principle, who are not trying to produce any educational reform, but are simply trying to provide a big enough sum out of the taxpayers' pockets to bribe their followers to keep them in office for a few months longer.
It is not my business or my duty to defend the change of policy of the Minister. I quite agree that it is a good thing to be consistent, to put forward a policy and to adhere to that policy, but, after all, when the Noble Lord was President of the Board of Education, he, too, had a way of changing policy, and I remember some struggles over a certain circular. Perhaps this Committee does serve a useful purpose in educating Ministers and that is the encouragement which we have to be here and to take part in these discussions. I am glad that the Noble Lord shows such an attachment to the views of local authorities. I think that is sound, in principle. I am always in favour of standing up for the local authorities as opposed to the bureaucrats in Government departments, and I shall always speak with deference of the opinion of a committee representing the local authorities who have the duty of carrying out these measures, and who have practical knowledge. But in this case the hon. Member for Cambridge (Sir D. Newton) who spoke for the County Councils Association, did not trouble to explain that there was a minority report from the committee to which reference has been made. It is true that the minority report only represented London. It is true that London is a very unimportant place, with only a population of 4,500,000. But it happens to be the largest authority and, as a matter of fact, this minority report is signed by two very distinguished and able Conservative members of the Council, Sir John Gilbert, Chairman of the Education Committee, and Mr. Angus N. Scott, Chairman of the Finance Committee. I think their opinion ought to be treated with deference, too.
Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will allow me to point out that I made it perfectly clear that I was speaking on behalf of the Municipal Corporations' Association, and the County Councils' Association, and not the London County Council.
I did not suggest that, and the hon. Member for Cambridge is, I know, the very last person who would mislead the Committee. But he did mention that there was a minority report, and that minority report contains the following:
While it is always a good thing to have regard to the views of local authorities with their practical experience and knowledge, I suggest that the proposals of the local authorities in the Memorandum referred to, would be impossible in practice. They would mean an impossible amount of red tape and a multiplication of officials which is the very thing that we want to avoid; and they would lead to confusion and difficulty and a considerable amount of controversy. It is very difficult to find the exact right figure in connection with a matter of this sort. I think, on the whole, it is not wise to put a figure in an Act of Parliament. It is far more satisfactory to leave it to regulations. The late Lord Oxford and Asquith always took exception to putting figures into Acts of Parliament. If we were to put in the figure now suggested, no doubt some hon. Members above the Gangway would be prepared to move for a further reduction, and I have no doubt that many of us would be prepared to move for a higher amount. Thus the very thing which the Noble Lord is anxious to avoid would take place and this Committee would become a haggling market. The only practical course is to leave the figure to be fixed by regulation, that regulation to be formally approved by Parliament. It would be most unsound, even from the economists' point of view, to put this figure into the Measure.
I suggest that the Government have heard more the advice which has come from urban centres than the advice put forward from the rural districts in regard to this matter. After very serious consideration this recommendation of the committee of local education authorities was given out at the beginning of the year. It is because the limits set out in this Amendment do cover the conditions of rural life and do cover rural needs, that these figures can be looked upon as answering the first objection raised by the Minister. Agricultural labourers come well within the limits between the average household multiplied by nine shillings, and the average household multiplied by 12 shillings, including rents and rates. The hardship of the extra year is greatest and most difficult to face in rural districts, where the child might be spending that year in learning his future occupation; he might be apprenticed to work at which he might be earning good money, and fitting himself for the work which he hopes to undertake as time goes on. The limits set out here are both economic and reasonable.
This Amendment really brings us back to the very core and substance of the vices to be inaugurated by this Bill. There are two particularly tragic circumstances in its consideration under present conditions. The first is the falling from grace of the Minister, his proceedings as signalised by this Bill, and the disappearance of every kind of sense which it had on its original appearance. Nothing has been accepted by the Minister except things which will make the Bill harder to work, more expensive, and worse for education. That is a tragic circumstance, and the other is the creation of an evil which is inherent in legislation of this sort. If you start a direct pecuniary benefit which is not earned in the common acceptance of the word, earned—[An HON. MEMBER: "Rent!"] Rent is earned. [ Interruption .] Hon. Members will agree that that will take me too far from the discussion, and I can only throw out my proposition in contradiction to their proposition. The Chair would not allow me to thrash it out now. Once you begin to distribute maintenance of the sort which has not the relation of reward to toil, there is no practical limit to it and you are hunted from pillar to post by those who see in it a new opportunity.
There are two reasons why I wish cordially to support this Amendment. The first is because it brings the scheme of the Bill in closer relation to reality. That, after all, is the most important thing when you are not dealing with an infinite amount of public money to be distributed, but when you are dealing with the narrow limitations of very bad times. The paragraph on which I lay particular stress is Paragraph 3: to spend as much money as you can, but under such conditions as we are living in, the simple scheme of the Government is of the sort that is ruinous to prosperity because it is wasteful. This scheme put forward by the Government does not take account of the income of the family. It commits the worst vice of creating an arbitrary artificial income which has no relation to the actual facts.
The second reason why this Amendment ought to be supported by anybody with any sense of the reality of the present time is that it is more economical than the scheme proposed by the Government. When I say that it is more economical I do not only mean that it costs less money. I mean that it costs as much money as it required for the purpose which the right hon. Gentleman desires to achieve and no more. We oppose maintenance grants, but we say that, if there are to be maintenance grants, the scheme in the Amendment would put them on the right basis as regards the amount. The basis proposed by the right hon. Gentleman is too great. That is supported by the two best bits of evidence that we could have. The local education authorities were responsible for putting forward this scheme, and that is the best possible evidence you can get. Then there is the evidence of the right hon. Gentleman himself, who originally accepted this scheme, and has now departed from it under the pressure of his followers.
The implications of this Bill are remarkable. The opinion has been expressed that the father of a child is not fit to be trusted with the maintenance allowance, and we have envisaged the possibility of family allowances. In order to arrest this debacle , this Amendment is proposed to make maintenance allowances definite. As at present proposed, it is left to the Board of Education to make regulations which may be varied from time to time. In this Amendment definite limits are laid down. The limits are very suitable for the rural areas, and I do not agree with the hon. Member for South West Bethnal Green (Mr. Harris) that it would put too great a responsibility on the local authorities or that it would involve a large number of officials. I do not believe that it would involve a single additional official. The school attendance officer knows the circumstances of the various families, certainly in the rural districts, and the local authority would have excellent advice in coming to a decision as to whether a family ought to receive an allowance or not. I strongly urge the Minister to accept this Amendment, which would deliver the board from a difficult position.
A great many of us would feel some assurance if we could have a word from the Minister as to whether he does not think something of this sort would be of assistance to him in getting over the difficulties that might arise locally because of jealousy between one claimant and another. The Amendment lays down what people are entitled to receive maintenance grants, but if it is left vague, it will lead to difficulty and jealousy, and will put an unfair onus on the persons administering the Bill. In considering the expenditure of money in this direction, we have to recollect that in some of the rural districts rates are exceedingly high, and that for some of the services to which some of us attach more importance than to this, it is difficult to get money voted from the rates.
I should like to see nothing done in this Bill which will lead to useless or profligate expenditure of money, and to less money being availaible for services like dental clinics and the health of the children. That will happen unless at this stage we draw attention to the possibility of money being misspent, not by any absence of forethought for those in authority, but by the different interpretations of the necessarily appalling form of inquisition that will have to be conducted as between one family and another. If this is a somewhat complicated Amendment, it has been drawn up with great care and it does represent the average income of families in rural districts, or some sort of standard to which people can work, and it is preferable to leaving the thing vague. Some of us want to get money from the rates for other purposes which are essential in rural districts, but which, owing to geographical circumstances, it is difficult to bring to the children, and we would far sooner have the money spent on health services than on improperly rewarding people when they are really not entitled to the reward.
I should like to add a word in favour of the principle of allowing some differentiation between urban and rural areas. I feel strongly that there are differences in ways of living and in standards of pay. The latter is exemplified in the salaries of teachers. Hon. Members opposite who are members of education authorities know that the scale of salaries for teachers in London is higher than in other town areas, and much higher than in the county areas.
What about Middlesex?
The hon. Member surely cannot quote Middlesex as a typical rural area.
The Noble Lady said "in any other county."
I am quite ready to grant Middlesex to the hon. Gentleman.
Something like 28 or 30 authorities have the same scale as London.
London has a scale of its own, which it may share with Middlesex, but not with very distant counties.
It shares it with, more than 20 Part III authorities round London.
The hon. Gentleman must remember the counties farther afield, in which the salaries are different from those in London. The same thing applies in Scotland.
One injustice does not justify another.
7.0 p.m.
If it be an injustice, it is not only an injustice in the teaching profession. In the Civil Service the principle of provincial differentiation is in existence. Salaries in certain grades of the Civil Service are fixed at a lower scale for big cities other than London, and on a lower scale again for areas other than big cities. There is, therefore, a recognition by the State and the local authorities that there are different standards of expense, and if pay be less in the rural areas, it is because the cost of living is so much less there, particularly in regard to rents. [ Interruption ].I wonder if hon. Members opposite know anything about rural rents. There is an enormous difference between rural and urban rents. In my own part of the country £5 a year rent is common, and you frequently find rents of 2s. 6d. a week, whereas in London a working man's rent may very easily reach 10s. a week. The standards therefore are quite different, and that is what the local authorities recognise. They recognise that there are variations between town and country, and between one county and other. They drew up this very scale which my hon. Friend has included in his Amendment, a scale which has a minimum and a maximum and which allows latitude to the local authority between those limits. It is only common sense that these differences exist. If you take the scale mentioned by the Minister as a rigid scale applicable all over the country, you find people within that income limit are people who are regarded as very comfortably off by many of their neighbours. From my own knowledge, I know there is no person more ready to criticise his neighbour for taking something from public funds when he is not thought to need it than the working man. The working man resents people taking from public funds something which he thinks they do not need.
These scales represent a comfortable living in the eyes of many people in rural areas. Only the other day I heard from what most of us would regard as a very prosperous seaside town that the proposed scales of the Minister would include, not 75 per cent. of the school population, but 79 per cent. If that is the case in a very
prosperous seaside town, the proportion would be even more in other parts, so that not only will the cost of the Measure be even greater than the Minister has led us to suppose, but local standards as to what it is right and proper for people to accept from public funds will be greatly upset and prejudiced, and there will be a good deal of feeling as a result. I beg the Minister not to turn his back on this renewed attempt to remind him that local education authorities do know something of people among whom they work. The whole tendency of his Bill is to sweep them aside and to give them no latitude whatever, although, in these very detailed and intimate questions of standards of life locally, they must know what it is impossible for even the most efficient Government Department to know. Unless this Amendment be passed, local opinion will be seriously upset, and new standards altogether introduced.
I should like to support this Amendment, but on grounds not hitherto touched upon. For some time past there has been growing dissatisfaction in the country over delegated powers. Here is a gross case of delegated legislation. Here, where public money is being spent, there ought to be some prescribed amount in the Bill. As it is now, it is left entirely in the hands of regulations of the Board of Education. I protest against it and I support the Amendment on that ground. I support it, not because I know sufficient to say whether it is a better amount than that which will be prescribed, but because I believe the principle is entirely wrong.
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Schedule."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 256; Noes, 155.
Division No. 74.] AYES. [7.5 p.m. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Barnes, Alfred John Brooke, W. Adamson, w. M. (Staff., Cannock) Barr, James Brothers, M. Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Batey, Joseph Brown, C. W. E. (Notts, Mansfield) Aitchison, Rt. Hon. Craigie M. Bellamy, Albert Brown, Ernest (Leith) Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro') Bennett, William (Battersea, South) Brown, W. J. (Wolverhampton, West) Ammon, Charles George Benson, G. Buchanan, G. Angell, Norman Bentham, Dr. Ethel Burgess, F. G. Arnott, John Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland) Aske, Sir Robert Bowen, J. W. Caine, Derwent Hall- Attlee, Clement Richard Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Cameron, A. G. Ayles, Walter Bread, Francis Alfred Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.) Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Brockway, A. Fenner Charleton, H. C. Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley) Bromfield, William Chater, Daniel Church, Major A. G. Kennedy, Thomas Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees) Cluse, W. S. Knight, Holford Romeril, H. G. Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George Rosbotham, D. S. T. Compton, Joseph Lathan, G. Rothschild, J. de Cove, William G. Law, Albert (Bolton) Rowson, Guy Dagger, George Law, A. (Rossendale) Salter, Dr. Alfred Dallas, George Lawrence, Susan Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen) Dalton, Hugh Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge) Sanders, W. S. Davies, E. C. (Montgomery) Leach, W. Sandham, E. Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern) Sawyer, G. F. Day, Harry Lees, J. Sexton, James Denman, Hon. R. D. Lewis, T. (Southampton) Shakespeare, Geoffrey H. Dudgeon, Major C. R. Lindley, Fred W. Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Dukes, C. Logan, David Gilbert Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Duncan, Charles Longbottom, A. W. Sherwood, G. H. Ede, James Chuter Longden, F. Shield, George William Edmunds, J. E. Lovat-Fraser, J. A. Shiels, Dr. Drummond Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Lowth, Thomas Shillaker, J. F. Edwards, E. (Morpeth) Lunn, William Shinwell, E. Elmley, Viscount Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Evans, Capt. Ernest (Walsh Univer.) MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw) Simmons, C. J. Forgan, Dr. Robert McElwee, A. Sinkinson, George Freeman, Peter McEntee, V. L. Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) McGovern, J. (Glasgow, Shettleston) Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) McKinlay, A. Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley) George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea) MacLaren, Andrew Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Gibbins, Joseph Maclean, Sir Donald (Cornwall, N.) Smith, Tom (Pontefract) Gibson, H. M. (Lancs. Mossley) Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Smith, W. R. (Norwich) Gill, T. H. Marcus, M. Snell, Harry Gillett, George M. Markham, S. F. Sorensen, R. Glassey, A. E. Marley, J Stamford, Thomas W. Gossling, A. G. Marshall, Fred Stephen, Campbell Gould, F. Mathers, George Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Matters, L. W. Strauss, G. R. Granville, E. Maxton, James Sullivan, J. Gray, Milner Messer, Fred Sutton, J. E. Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne). Middleton, G. Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Mills, J. E. Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.) Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.) Milner, Major J. Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Montague, Frederick Thurtle, Ernest Groves, Thomas E. Morgan, Dr. H. B. Tillett, Ben Grundy, Thomas W. Morley, Ralph Tinker, John Joseph Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Morris, Rhys Hopkins Toole, Joseph Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh) Tout, W. J. Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South) Townend, A. E. Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn) Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.) Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Hardie, George D. Mort, D. L. Vaughan, D. J. Harris, Percy A. Moses, J. J. H. Viant, S. P. Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent) Walkden, A. G. Hastings, Dr. Somerville Mosley, Sir Oswald (Smethwick) Walker, J. Haycock, A. W. Muff, G. Wallace, H. W. Hayday, Arthur Muggeridge, H. T. Wallhead, Richard C. Haves, John Henry Naylor, T. E. Watkins, F. C. Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burcley) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Watson, W. M. (Dunfermilne) Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) Noel Baker, P. J. Wellock, Wilfred Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) Noel-Buxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N.) Welsh, James (Paisley) Herriotts, J. Oldfield, J. R. West, F. R. Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth) Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston) Westwood, Joseph Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley) White, H. G. Hoffman, P. C. Palin, John Henry Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood) Hopkin, Daniel Palmer, E. T. Wilkinson, Ellen C. Hore-Bellsha, Leslie Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Williams, David (Swansea, East) Horrabin, J. F. Perry, S. F. Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Isaacs, George Phillips, Dr. Marion Wilson, J. (Oldham) Jenkins, w. (Glamorgan, Neath) Picton-Turbervill, Edith Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) John, William (Rhondda, West) Pole, Major D. G. Winterton, G. E. (Leicester, Loughb'gh) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Potts, John S. Wise, E. F. Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Price, M. P. Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff) Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne) Pybus, Percy John Jones, Morqan (Caerphilly) Ramsay, T. B. Wilson TELLERS FOR THE AYES .—.— Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. Rathbone, Eleanor Mr. William Whiteley and Mr. Paling. Jowitt, Sir W. A. (Preston) Raynes, W. R. Kelly, W. T. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
NOES. Albery, Irving James Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley) Betterton, Sir Henry B. Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l., W.) Balfour, George (Hampstead) Boothby, R. J. G. Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet) Bourne, Captain Robert Croft. Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) Balniel, Lord Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart Astor, Viscountess Beaumont, M. W. Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W. Atholl, Duchess of Bellairs, Commander Cariyon Boyce, H. L. Atkinson, C. Berry, Sir George Bracken, B. Brass, Captain Sir William Gritten, W. G. Howard Rawson, Sir Cooper Briscoe, Richard George Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Reid, David D. (County Down) Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Gunston, Captain D. W. Remer, John R. Buckingham, Sir H. Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. Rentoul, Sir Gervals S. Bullock, Captain Malcolm Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch't'sy) Butler, R. A. Hammersley, S. S. Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Hanbury, C. Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. Carver, Major W. H. Hartington, Marquess of Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Castle Stewart, Earl of Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Russell, Richard John (Eddisbury) Cautley, Sir Henry S. Haslam, Henry C. Salmon, Major I. Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.) Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Heneage, Lieut.-Col Arthur P. Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A.(Birm., W.) Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston) Herbert, Sir Dennis (Hertford) Savery, S. S. Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Clydesdale, Marquess of Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Smithers, Waldron Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Cohen, Major J. Brunel Hurd, Percy A. Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East) Colfox, Major William Philip Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R. Stanley, Lord (Fylde) Colman, N. C. D. Iveagh, Countess of Stanley Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland) Colville, Major D. J. Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur Cranborne, Viscount Kindersley, Major G. M. Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F. Crichton-Stuart, Lord C. Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton) Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A. Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Leighton, Major B. E. P. Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton) Croom-Johnson, R. P. Lewis, Oswald (Colchester) Thomson, Sir F. Dalkeith, Earl of Llewellin, Major J. J. Tinne, J. A. Dalrymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon Godfrey Titchfield, Major the Marquess of Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) Todd, Capt. A. J. Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Makins, Brigadier-General E. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Dawson, Sir Philip Marjoribanks, Edward Turton, Robert Hugh Duckworth, G. A. V. Meller, R. J. Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey) Eden, Captain Anthony Merriman, Sir F. Boyd Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s. M.) Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Wardlaw-Milne, J. S. Eyerard, W. Lindsay Mitchell-Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir w. Waterhouse, Captain Charles Falie, Sir Bertram G. Moore, Sir Newton J. (Richmond) Wells, Sydney R. Fielden, E. B. Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay) Galbraith, J. F. W. Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester) Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Ganzoni, Sir John Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Withers, Sir John James Glyn, Major R. G. C. Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld) Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount Gower, Sir Robert Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert Womersley, W. J. Grace, John O'Neill, Sir H. Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Peake, Capt. Osbert Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter Penny, Sir George TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —— Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Captain Margesson and Sir Victor Warrender. Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John Power, Sir John Cecil
I beg to move, in page 5, line 5, after the word "A." to insert the words: The object of my Amendments is fairly clear and I hope they will be acceptable to the Minister, whose desire it must be to make this a workable Bill. The aim of this first Amendment is to give the allowance for a definite and specified period, and to take away from parents the constant fear that, through some alteration in earnings, they have put themselves outside the law. Personally, I object altogether to the maintenance allowance, but as it has been agreed that we are to have a maintenance allowance I want Parliament to ensure that it is paid fairly and equitably and with the minimum of trouble. I hope the Minister does not confuse wage rates with earnings. In practically all the great industries to-day a man's earnings may be not very much more than half his wage-rates. The wage-rate is fairly constant but is no criterion of what a man will be getting at the end of a week, or even of the average that he may have earned in a period of three months. This difficulty is a considerable one for a man when he alone is working, but it is much more considerable for a man and wife when both are working. In many districts one knows of cases where the husband is working in a colliery and his wife is working at some other occupation. In other districts both the man and his wife may be working in textile factories, and their wages move up or down together and ever more considerable variations may be created.
I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to consider this typical example. A couple have three children dependent upon them, and according to the terms in the Command Paper issued with the Bill they would be entitled to the maintenance allowance for their children over 14 if the income was not more than £3 5s. a week. Let us suppose that one of their children becomes 14 in December. If they wish to claim for him they have to make a return of their earnings for the past three months. They make a calculation of their earnings for October, November and December, and find that it shows them with an income of less than £3 5s. per week, and so they put in their claim. Suppose then, that a seasonal revival in trade occurred in the spring and that full time is worked, and the man and his wife earn £4 a week in January. Will it be the duty of the parents to make a fresh return? Probably not; because they will average out their earnings, and find that they are still below the appointed figure. Then the man works full time again in February. Does it then become his duty to make a fresh return, or can he say: "I believe that the month of March, because Easter will come in it, will be a bad month, and therefore my average for three months will still be less than the prescribed sum, and I will give the matter another trial"? At what period has he to go to the local authority and say: "I think that now my average income is substantially above what it was when I made my claim, and therefore I ought in all fairness to make out a fresh form, or to withdraw my claim altogether"?
In point of fact, can one suppose that parents will be constantly calculating their earnings in this way? It is a difficult thing to make an Income Tax return, even on small incomes, and one knows the tremendous difficulties encountered by farmers when they had to fill up sheaves of forms in the War period and immediately afterwards; and in the case of these textile workers the filling up of these forms will prove to be a great tax. I have had definite examples taken out for me to illustrate what I have been saying.
The point raised in this Amendment is whether one form of application shall suffice or three forms covering three periods.
The point of the Amendment is to fix three specific periods of four months each and to say that if a man has qualified for one of those periods he is to get his allowance during the whole of that period.
It appears to me that the real point is whether one return is to be sufficient or whether there are to be three periodic returns. What I wish to prevent is a discussion on the complication or difficulty of filling up forms.
My point is that the man should have three specific forms to make out and that if he has made out a form for a certain period, he should then have washed his hands of it for that period, and not be disturbed by variations of his income in that period. Here are examples of how incomes can vary. I find that over a four weeks' period a man and his wife, both employed in a textile factory where the joint wage rate was 81s. 2d., earned jointly £2 2s. 4d. per week, and in another four weeks' period, only divided from it by 10 weeks, they earned £4 0s. 9d. per week. In another example there was a decrease of earnings from £4 16s. 5d. per week to £3 18s. 6d., and in a third case earnings fell from £4 12s. 10d. to £2 16s. 9d. Those are definite cases, not of odd weeks, but of periods of four weeks, and, of course, the variation from week to week would be very much more than that; and it would be almost impossible for anybody who does not keep a strict record of his wages to say from time to time what his average earnings are.
It should be remembered, also, that these are not mistakes for which a man would merely get reprimanded. Those who break the law in this respect can be sent to prison for three months or be fined up to £25. These are very heavy penalties to impose upon a working man who is accused of making a false return. He would have to be convicted of "knowingly" making it, but as he has the figures in his possession it could be said, in a sense, that it was a knowingly false statement, although it may only have been an instance of a man not calculating properly. From the point of view of the local authorities it would be better to grant the maintenance allowance for four months; that is the nearest period to a. term in the school year. That will save the local authority from having to wonder constantly whether a revival in trade has not altered the circumstances of 200 or 300 or 400 people who may be drawing the maintenance allowance for their children.
Finally, there is the position of the child to be considered. Children are sensitive creatures, and it would be embarrassing for a child if other children know the wages of its parents to feel that from, a cause quite outside his own control he may be drawing an allowance to which he is in no way entitled. It is quite possible that remarks may be made to the child by his school-fellows which may be a cause of real embarrassment to him. By accepting this Amendment the. Minister would save parents the worry of having to calculate wage returns; save the local authorities the trouble and expense of having constantly to watch the earnings of a very considerable section of marginal cases; and, finally, it would save the child the possibility of irritation.and loss of self-respect in school from remarks or aspersions which may be made by his school-fellows.
The hon. and gallant Member took a period of four months. Would he take an average of the whole of the 12 months?
I thank the hon. Member for that interruption. I omitted to make a reference to that. I did not take the average of 12 months in the cases I have quoted, but in an unemployment debate last year I had the average calculated for me by a large factory. The average male wage rate was, I think, 55s. 4d.—between 55s. and 56s.—and the average earnings were 42s. Therefore the hon. Member will realise that the yearly rate can vary very much as well as the short period rate. It would obviously be more convenient to grant the maintenance allowance for a whole year on one application, but I think that would be unfair. That was my idea when I first considered the Schedule, but it would be unfair, I think, in the sense that certain people whose children happen to come to the age of 14 during a busy period would find their income above the prescribed figure and would be unable to get the allowance, in spite of the fact that they might know that their wages would fall again in the ensuing three months.
I followed with very great care what was said by the hon. Member who last spoke. It is rather curious that he should consider one type of case only. It is true that a man on a given date may be earning x wages and that three months later his earnings may be so many shillings or pounds more. The hon. and gallant Gentleman wants to safeguard the public finances by seeing that such a man does not draw a maintenance allowance unfairly. I understand, the point of view. Why does he not think of the other side of the case? It may happen that in a, week or a fortnight the person may be unemployed and remain unemployed, and that he may be adversely affected because his wage on the date of his application may have been such as to put him outside the pale of benefit. A fortnight later, on account of unemployment, he may be well within the pale of benefit, but under the proposals of the hon. and gallant Gentleman he would be cut off for four months. I think I am right.
May I just intervene? The case is exactly the reverse. The man whose income at this moment is over the limit obviously does not fill in his form. In a fortnight he becomes unemployed, and he then fills in his form and gets his allowance, and does so from day to day for four months or until he gets a job.
That is quite right. Suppose that we come to the second four months and that in that period the applicant puts in his claim. He may not be entitled to claim on the second four months because his wage may by that time have gone up. A fortnight later he is out. He cannot very well come with another claim for the second four months. I agree with the hon. and gallant Gentleman that there are differences between wage rates and earnings, and that it is desirable to safeguard the public finances as far as we can from unjust and unfair burdens. I cannot discuss this point because we are in advance a little. I would refer the hon. and gallant Gentleman to Part II of the Schedule dealing with the undertaking to be given by the applicant that, if his income substantially increases, he will inform the local authority. I do not think the suggestion made by the hon. and gallant Gentleman would meet the difficulty he points out. The applicant could be called on to fill up a form three times a year, and I do not think the difficulty is in any way minimised by the proposal which he makes. I would ask the hon. and gallant Gentleman to withdraw his Amendment. I think he will find his point is quite amply covered when we come to discuss Part II of the Schedule at a later stage. We can have a much fuller discussion of the difficulty, and it will be adequately met.
I am afraid the hon. Member has not quite understood the purport of the Amendment. We seek to divide the year into three periods. So far as I know there is nothing whatever in the Bill to say that a man shall not put in an application form as many times in a year as he likes. He has merely to put in an application form before he receives any maintenance money whatever, but there is no provision to prevent him putting in a second application a week or a fortnight after the first, if he finds that his income is altered during that period. Under the Bill as it now stands, he has to do something of the sort, otherwise, he may be liable for a criminal offence. Our view is that, if a man has once put in his form, taking the period of the last four months as the basis of the form, that shall definitely entitle him to a maintenance allowance for the period for which he submits his form. Suppose that he puts it in on a day in February, that will take him down to the 30th of April. He may get out of employment or his wages may drop, and he becomes entitled to an allowance on the 30th of July. Then his claim would only last for the remaining period of one month. He would know definitely that if he once put a form in he would have no liability that might bring him within the busy arm of the law if he did not alter the form when his wages varied from week to week.
The Amendment does not safeguard the public finances at all, but will operate, I am afraid, in completely the opposite direction. It enables a man who puts in a form to know definitely that for the next four months he is all right. After that, it is quite true he will have to make out another form. The Amendment does another thing. It enables the local education authority to deal with applications at stated dates throughout the year. That will be found to be better for the authority from an administrative point of view than to have a lot dribbling in from day to day. Normally, if the wages do not alter greatly, the periods will be, roughly, the end of the school term. I realise that in some places there are four school terms and thus they do not end exactly on these dates. That is a difficulty we have tried to meet by the dates we have put into this Amendment. Three times a year, just before the beginning of the new school terms, these application forms shall be sent in. We think we are making it simpler for the applicant. It is far better not to put upon him this indeterminate liability which may bring him within the arm of the criminal law for failing to alter a form.
The hon. Member who has just spoken has put the case very well. I think the Parliamentary Secretary of the Board of Education has really misunderstood the purpose of this Amendment. So far as I can make out, it attempts to protect the applicant from being liable to penalties and from his weekly life being; full of worry and trouble. Wages, especially in London, vary from week to week. After a rather lean time, a workman may suddenly find his wages substantially raised on account of Christmas time, overtime and such things. Somebody may tell the Department, some mischievous person, that applicant A, B or C is getting additional wages and is no longer entitled to draw maintenance allowance for his child. The Schedule says:
"I understand that if my income from any source [or that of my wife (or husband) living with me] substantially increases at any time while I am in receipt of the allowance hereby claimed, it is my duty to inform the local education authority of the fact immediately, and that I may be liable to a penalty for wilfully deceiving or attempting to deceive that authority if I fail to do so."
Is it not rather a serious thing to make an ordinary workman liable to penalties of this kind, if at any time he just comes over the limit by earning a few extra shillings? Perhaps he has been supplementing his wages in some special way. It is a substantial problem, and I do not know that the way put forward by the hon. and gallant Member who moved the Amendment is the best way out. I know, from my knowledge of the people in my district, that this is a very serious question. Forms of this kind are a holy terror to the ordinary worker. I want to protect him from being liable. I think the Minister ought to go into this matter very carefully before the Report stage, and say if it is possible to protect the person who just comes within the limit.
I generally view with alarm, anything that comes from the opposite benches, and I have paid more attention than usual to the Amendment that I see here. I feel that there is nothing to be afraid of in this Amendment. I would like to draw attention to a difficulty that I see. I have had 10 years' experience of Poor Law administration in one of the biggest unions in England, and I have some knowledge of busybodies and anonymous letters which inform an authority that "this week Mr. so-and-so has had a decent week, that he filled up a form at the begining of the week, and that if you will examine it you will find that he ought to be prosecuted." As a rule, the officer who makes the investigation finds that the statement is true; and it may be considered as proved that false statements have been made in the document that has been filled up. Those who are versed in filling up Income Tax forms are not those who are going to qualify for the 5s. maintenance grant. Those who, in our poorer areas, will fill up forms in order to get the 5s., will certainly think that their liability has ceased, more especially in the case of casual labourers round the docks, whose earnings must be judged, not on one or two weeks' employment, but over a period. I am not concerned with whatever ulterior motives may be in the minds of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite, but I do see a saving Clause here which at least will give to applicants, who have a right to the maintenance grant for a certain period, the satisfaction that, no matter who may make a complaint, the particulars which they gave on the date laid down will bear the fullest examination.
No definite period is mentioned in the form, the only statement being that, when the income goes above a certain amount, the applicant may be liable for an indefinite period. Under the present system of public assistance committees, and under the Poor Law system in the past, the ordinary claim was made on the basis of the circumstances of the individual. As to the length of the term, I should prefer to see it made one quarter, that is to say, 13 weeks. I think that, if the Minister would look at this Amendment from the point of view of benefiting the Bill, he would see a great deal in it, and I am convinced that it could be made a really good Amendment by the draftsman. It would have the effect, firstly, of giving stability to the income of 5s. a week; secondly, of keeping busybodies from prying into people's domestic affairs; and, thirdly, it would give the applicant that peace of mind which will come from the knowledge that when the grant is made to him it will be secure for a stated period. From my knowledge of Poor Law administration, I am convinced that a settled term would be beneficial to the applicant.
I want to ask the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary to give this proposal their very best attention. The Parliamentary Secretary did, I think, misunderstand its purport. It has really nothing to do with the later Amendment to which he referred, and it does raise a point of extraordinary importance. The Parliamentary Secretary based his objection on the supposition that a man was bound for the four months between these dates, and that, if he were not able to submit an application on the 1st May, because his income was too high, he would not be able to submit it until the 1st September. That is not the purpose, nor do I think it is the effect, of the Amendment. If it, is the effect of the Amendment, it can be very easily altered by simply saying:
A more serious misunderstanding was shown by the Parliamentary Secretary in his instance of what would happen if a man who had an income too high to enable him to secure a maintenance allowance suddenly became unemployed. What happens under the Bill as it stands? Does the hon. Gentleman realise that, under the Bill as it stands, if a man's income varies, the average rate during the last three months has to be stated? If his income has been varying over the last two or three months, and has been too high, with all these variations, to entitle him to a maintenance allowance, and if then his earnings drop for a week, or two weeks, or three weeks, that does not allow him to apply for a maintenance allowance, because it is not until the average over three months has fallen below the limit that he becomes entitled to apply. That objection, therefore, is not an objection to our Amendment, but is an objection to the proposals of the Bill. I do not think, if I may say so in passing, that the Government have paid sufficient attention to the effect of that note that, wherever the income is variable, the average of three months is to be taken. It will mean that practically every workman who makes application will have to state his average earnings for the last three months, instead of his earnings for the last three weeks or month. That, however, is not an argument against the Amendment, because the Amendment leaves that point as to the three months' average entirely untouched.
I am very glad that the hon. Member for the Scotland Division of Liverpool (Mr. Logan) agrees with us, and I would assure him that, whatever may be his normal suspicions of Members on this side, we have no motive or ulterior consideration here other than those which he has so clearly and ably put forward. The sole purpose of the Amendment is to ensure that, when a person is qualified under the terms of the Bill, which we do not alter for the purpose of the qualification, he shall remain qualified until the 30th April, the 31st August, or the 31st December next succeeding. He will have to put in a new application on those dates in order to get a renewal. That is the sole effect of the Amendment, and I hope that there is time—and, after all, we are not extremely pressed for time—for the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary to consult their advisers, and, if they agree with the principle, to agree on the question of drafting across the Floor of the Committee.
I think it would be just as well if we left this matter for the Report stage. It is not easy to draft at a moment's notice, but, if hon. Gentlemen opposite will agree to leave it over, I am prepared to consider it very carefully, and, if necessary, to bring forward words which will do what we want, and will not do more.
I must leave my hon. Friends to say what they are prepared to do. I would only remind the right hon. Gentleman that the Report stage is getting a little crowded with matters that have been left over.
I have known many Bills in the case of which much more has been left over.
There is one other point on which I should like to ask a question. I am glad that the Minister has agreed to consider this Amendment, but the Parliamentary Secretary drew attention to the words at the end of the form:
"I understand that if my income from any source [‡or that of my wife (or husband) living with me] substantially increases at any time ·."
What does "substantially increases" mean?
That is a different point. It is dealt with in another Amendment later.
It appears to be cannected with this particular point.
In view of what the right hon. Gentleman has said, it is not the intention of my hon. Friends to press this matter to a Division, but we hope that it will be given the most serious consideration. Unless some such words as these are put into the Bill, a man whose income borders on the limit and may vary from week to week throughout the year, may for some period render himself liable to a very serious penalty. I do not quite know what exception the right hon. Gentleman takes to the words of this particular Amendment. I cannot see how it can be otherwise than beneficial. My name is attached to the Amendment, and I hope to see something of the sort carried into effect. The only objection that I see to it is that a man whose income fell below the limit for one week in the year might get four months' instead of only a week's maintenance allowance. The Parliamentary Secretary's objection with regard to the possible case of a man whose income happened to be above the limit at the beginning of the quarter does not really exist in practice, while the Amendment has the advantage that it will be very much better from a practical point of view if these applications come before the local education authority at stated intervals instead of all through the year. As I have already said, however, we do not propose to divide the Committee on the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, in page 5, line 10, to leave out the words "laid before," and to insert instead thereof the words specifically approved by resolutions of both Houses of."
8.0 p.m.
I move this Amendment in the absence of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Moss Side (Sir G. Hurst). The income limits have to be prescribed by regulations made by the Board of Education and laid before Parliament, and as the Committee know, when regulations are laid before Parliament, there is generally some provision as to the way in which they are to be dealt with—whether they are to come into force if they are approved, by an affirmative Resolution, or whether they must lie on the Table for so many days without being objected to; and, in an important case like this, there ought to be some statement in the Bill as to how these regulations will come into force. The right way of dealing with the matter is that there should be an affirmative Resolution of both Houses or at any rate of the House of Commons, as it is a matter of public funds, and I desire to move the Amendment in that form.
I hope the Committee will not accept this Amendment. The procedure proposed in the Bill is the same as the Board of Education has for its ordinary regulations. The regulations lie in draft for a number of days, during which local education authorities make representations, and often substantial alterations are made. Of course, there is the ultimate responsibility of the House of Commons, in the case of these regulations, the House is acting with a perfect knowledge of what the general character of the first regulations which this Government proposes to make is going to be. If there were a proposal of this sort, there would be great difficulty in making any variations under the proposal for the possible local variations which I am introducing in an Amendment which will in all probability be accepted. I could not accept this Amendment, and I do not know that this House wishes its administration in this respect to be at the mercy of the other House. Indeed, I think it might under certain circumstances produce an impossible situation.
This Amendment brings us to a point of principle which we have not yet had an opportunity of discussing, and one ignored entirely by the right hon. Gentleman in his few remarks. The principle which we find to be an entirely novel principle in the legislation of this country is that the Board of Education, by its regulations. may impose a duty, and indeed a legal liability, on the local authorities, and in consequence a direct burden on the taxpayer and the ratepayer. The Board of Education has never had that power before. Regulations of the Board of Education hitherto have been regulations for the payment of grants. The Board has been able to say to the local educa- tion authorities, "Unless you will do certain things, we will not pay you a grant, or we will not pay you a grant at a certain rate," but the Board has bad no power to create a statutory duty for local education authorities. That has remained entirely in the hands of this House.
I think hon. Members below the Gang way on this side will be interested in this point. The Bill introduced last summer contained a provision that it should be the duty of local education authorities to administer the provisions of the Bill in regard to maintenance allowances in accordance with regulations laid down by the Minister. That was a little bit too thick, and local education authorities, gently and without very much publicity, pointed out that it was entirely a new principle, wholly unknown in this country, so the right hon. Gentleman, in the present edition of the Bill, instead of putting a duty on local authorities, says that a person shall be entitled to a maintenance allowance from a local education authority on certain conditions. He gets to the same position. He imposes a legal liability on those local authorities, and that legal liability is to be imposed by the regulations of the Board.
The Board of Education is to become a taxing and rating authority. According to the regulations which the Board lays down, the taxpayers and the ratepayers of this country may have to pay £1,000,000 or £2,000,000, less or more, a year. The right hon. Gentleman says he does not want to submit this strange new power to the control of another place. There may be something to be said for that, but since when has the Board of Education become a more desirable authority for taxing the public than the other place? I think those two propositions are about on a par of unconstitutionally and undesirability. I know the hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Mr. Harris) said just now that he was strongly opposed to putting any payment into a Bill of this kind. I suppose, on a similar principle, he will advocate in the next Budget that Income Tax is to be at such a rate as the Chancellor of the Exchequer may by regulation define. It would certainly make our business here very much lighter and easier if we were to impose implicit confidence in His Majesty's Ministers, but this is really an issue which we must press.
I do not think the country fully understands that under this Bill the Board of Education becomes literally a taxing authority. It rests entirely with it to say how much the taxpayers and the ratepayers of this country shall pay for maintenance allowances. By their regulations they could reduce the rate to a half—the entitlement could be so difficult to obtain that it would practically involve no financial burden—or they could lower the limit to such an extent that every parent of every child in school would receive a maintenance allowance, at a great additional cost to the taxpayer. That is what the right hon. Gentleman is being urged to do now. That is what he will be urged to do at the next election, and if he can do it by his regulations, without going back to Parliament, we shall find the right hon. Gentleman promising that very thing on public platforms at election time.
He will be here then?
I shall be here when the next election comes, and I shall, therefore, have the opportunity of seeing how hon. Members opposite exploit and take advantage of this new principle which is inserted in this Bill.
The Noble Lord was arguing that the right hon. Gentleman would alter the scale and at the same time recognising that this Bill does not come into operation until 1932, and I say that he recognises that these gentlemen will be in office then.
I am afraid the hon. Member has got rather muddled. The fact that this Bill does not come into operation till 1932 will not prevent him and his friends pressing the right hon. Gentleman at a General Election before then to promise that he will reduce the qualifications and therefore increase the amount of the maintenance allowance, and of course the hon. Member for the Drake Division (Mr. Moses) will be asked for that pledge at Plymouth, and of course he will give it, as he has given pledges before. I do not say that they will be carried out, of course, but he will promise. I do not say that the right hon. Gentleman will be able to carry out his promises. At the last election he promised that the whole burden of maintenance allowances would be borne by the State and not by the rates, but at any rate that promise will be made, because it is entirely in the power of the Administration under this Bill, without any check from Parliament, to increase or reduce the qualifications for maintenance allowances. That is a position to which we must arouse the country and against which we must attempt to protect the country, and I hope that we shall be supported on such a very constitutional issue by hon. Members below the Gangway on this side.
The Noble Lord the Member for Hastings (Lord E. Percy) has worked himself up into a state of great excitement about this question of principle. I understand him to suggest that the regulations should be approved by both Houses of Parliament. I am all for keeping Parliamentary control. It is a very sound principle, for which I have always stood, and of course it offers great attractions, but when it is suggested that the House of Lords should butt in to what, after all, is a purely financial matter, I most strongly object. If, on the other hand, he was to say that the regulations should be approved by the House of Commons, I should not have the same objection to his proposal. If it is a constitutional issue, certainly the issue is the suggestion that the House of Lords should be able to fix money amounts. The House of Commons alone should have the right to control money matters. Therefore, I cannot support the Amendment in its present form.
I shall be only too delighted to alter the Amendment so as to make it refer to a Resolution of the House of Commons only.
My hon. Friend is perfectly prepared to make this a Resolution of the House of Commons, and that practically meets our case. This is not a case for stirring up once again the powers of the Parliament Act of 1911, but it is a matter of very great constitutional importance. I will ask hon. Members opposite, who grin so happily, to remember that it can work both ways, and that if they can give pledges about loosening the conditions with regard to maintenance allowances, other people can tighten them up, and I suggest that these maintenance allowances are a very big contribution from the State. It has been suggested that they are the beginning of family allowances. I hope we have not got as far as that yet, but there is always a danger that they may be extended in many directions, and they should be very distinctly and clearly under the control of Parliament. The two potential Presidents of the Board of Education are the right hon. Gentleman opposite and the right hon. Gentleman below me, in whom I am sure this House would be very pleased to leave some of its financial affairs, if it was prepared to leave them in the hands of any Minister of any party, but a big contribution from the State like this, which is a thing affecting the rights of hundreds of thousands of people, on the one side, and both the Exchequer and the rates on the other, is not an affair to be attended to by simple Regulations of a Government Department. I hope that when we go into the Lobby in support of this Amendment, we shall have the support of the Liberal party and of all sound constitutionalists in this Committee who stand for the control of Parliament over big expenditure.
The Amendment, in the form in which, I understand, it is to be moved, is one that I am very ready to support, because I do not believe in setting up any Government Department and allowing them to make these Regulations, which may alter not only the taxation but also the rates throughout the country by a sort of hole and corner method in a Government office. If we really assent to that, we shall increase the contempt with which we are told in the papers this House is considered throughout the country, and certainly rightly if we gradually delegate extensive powers to different Government Departments and, where it is concerned with the taxation of the people, clearly it goes to the very root of the existence of the House of Commons. I hope we shall show that there is a body of opinion in the House that trusts the decision of the House and is not prepared to delegate its responsibility in that manner. I hope the Amendment in its amended form will be pressed to a Division if it cannot be accepted.
I have no objection in principle to what is now being brought forward, but I think the form is clumsy. I should be prepared to move it in another form, at the end of line 22, to add the words:
"before any such regulations as aforesaid are made by the Board of Education, a draft thereof shall be laid before the Commons House of Parliament and regulations shall not be made until a Resolution is passed."
I beg to ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I think I can take the right hon. Baronet's Amendment now.
On a point of Order. Does that mean that you do not propose to select any of the Amendments between this and line 22?
I am under the impression that we have had a discussion already on spending power.
It was definitely ruled that we could not have a discussion on spending power, and the Amendment which would have effected it was not called, I believe because it was coming on on the Schedule. It was my Amendment, and I had no opportunity of a discussion on it.
It was part of one of the Amendments that we have already discussed, to Schedule 2, page 5, line 5—rent and rates.
It is not only a question of rent and rates. That point was never raised as an Amendment at all.
I must call on the hon. Member.
Do I understand that the Amendment that the right hon. Baronet has accepted comes in line 10 or line 22?
I had a paper sent up to me and it said line 22. I passed it back. The hon. Member's Amendment was on line 10.
As I understand it, the Amendment must come in in line 10 and not in line 22.
This says line 22. Which is it? The Minister says line 22 and he sent the Amendment up to me.
There are two Amendments, both on line 10 and line 22.
There are two Amendments on this paper. I wish Members and the Minister would not put two Amendments on one paper.
Amendment made: In page 5, line 10, leave out from the word "and" to the word "such" in line 11.—[ Sir C. Trevelyan. ]
I beg to move, in page 5, line 13, after the word "the," to insert the words "spending power of the claimant and the."
This is one of a series of Amendments which seek to remove the anomaly which a flat rate of 5s. a week all over the country would otherwise cause. The objections to having varying rates in varying areas, while we do not entirely agree with them, are nevertheless substantial, but we still contend that, with a flat rate all over the country, very serious differences of benefit will arise. Take an example of two people who will be drawing maintenance allowances under the Bill. I admit that they are possibly extreme cases, but they are actual cases which have come under my notice. A man in a town area earns £2 10s. a week, paying a rent of 24s. and rates on top of that. Another man in a country district earns £2 10s. a week, paying a rent of 2s. a week and no rates. Those are two cases which will receive exactly the same benefit under the Bill and which are both supposed to be cases of need. It has been said that we can only give maintenance allowances to cases of need. Those are not both cases of need or, if they are, they are very different, and it is absurd to take the same standard for those living in areas where the cost of living is low, and rent and rates are low, as in a populous district where rent and rates are high and the cost of living is high. We have, therefore, drafted this procedure, which is not very complicated and which is modelled on the procedure adopted by the London County Council care committees in dealing with cases of allowances, not basing the amount upon the gross income, but upon the spending power, that is to say, the income, with a deduction for rates and rent.
We suggest that the correct way of estimating whether a family is in need or not is to take into account, not so much the amount which they receive every week, but the amount which they have to spend every week. It may be that the amount which we have laid down for the requisite spending power may not meet the Minister's views. Personally, I am prepared to have the amount varied. That fact does not particularly interest me. What interests me is the question of the principle being based upon spending power. All that is necessary is to insert words in the application form—as is done already on the London County Council care committee forms—in order to get the applicant to state his outgoings as well as his income, and to base the amount for maintenance allowance upon the difference. This principle is very much sounder and fairer than whatever limit you take, and is much more likely to avoid the anomalies and jealousies which, otherwise, are bound to ensue. We all know of cases where the maintenance grant is going to two persons, one of whom needs it very badly and the other does not need it nearly as much, and yet someone with exactly the same standard of life as the latter is not going to get it at all. There will be grousings, grumblings and complaints, and, what we fear even worse, as was foreshadowed by the hon. Member for Walsall (Mr. McShane), two different classes of children—grant-aided children and non-grant-aided children. We suggest that some of the trouble may be avoided if these Amendments—or the spirit of them, for I am prepared to alter the details of the Amendments if the right hon. Gentleman wishes me to do so—are accepted.
I have listened with a great amount of interest to the speech which has been delivered by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Beaumont). He is sympathetic with those who are hard-up, that is to say, he wants a differentiation to be made in the matter of the payment of these grants on the basis of maintenance allowances. Does he stand for a differentiation amongst those who have passed to the universities and public schools from amongst the people? Do they not all receive the same allowances?
No!
You get the same amount of subsidy very often.
No!
Yes, absolutely. If anyone looks into the history of educational benefits in this country he will see that I am right. I am prepared to meet any hon. Gentleman opposite outside this House to prove it.
Prove it now.
I will prove it now. As far as scholarships in the London area are concerned, is it not a fact that all children winning scholarships are treated alike? Do they all receive the same grant?
No!
Well then, you are meaner than I thought you were. We in West Ham treat all children alike. It does not matter whether their fathers are in decent jobs or are casual workers, they all receive exactly the same amount.
No!
Although you are a Lord, and a useless one at that, I will tell you frankly that we do treat all children alike from whatever class they come.
No!
I know that you did not when you were Minister of Education. You tried your best to cut down the allowances.
No!
And we had to fight you.
No!
Oh, yes, it is true.
On a point of Order. Has this any relevance to the Amendment which is before the Committee?
There are so many "Noes." It is difficult to follow the argument owing to interjections.
We are discussing maintenance allowances, and the question is whether we shall find the necessary money for the purpose of allowing children, to take advantage of extended education. That is the problem dealt with in this Amendment. Hon. Members opposite say that we must have an inquiry. People must prove their spending power before they can receive a grant from the education authority. They must prove that they are in need of the necessary money. That is the purpose of this Amendment.
That is in the Bill.
When you wanted soldiers, you did not ask questions as to how their parents were fixed. You did not ask in wartime whether a soldier was the son of a lord or of a cook. You gave them all the same allowances, maintenance and otherwise, and pensions at the finish, but now, when it comes to the education of the children of poor working people, you want to run the tape over them. That is your idea of education. When it is a matter of dealing out death to people, you are prepared to spend millions of public money regardless of the circumstances, and you have done it. [ Interruption. ] Hon. Members can sneer and jeer. I am in the habit of telling the truth. These people who have enjoyed all the advantages of education, for which they have not paid, or for which their parents have not paid, are now saying that because we are desirous of giving 5s. a week to enable working-class children to get a better chance of living and of education than they have ever had before, they turn round and say we must have some kind of circumspection and some arrangement whereby we may be able to save the taxpayers and the ratepayers. Who are the taxpayers? At the finish the worker pays for the lot. And you will not pay anything. You will be one of the people who will escape in that respect. I am only speaking as a common ordinary representative of an East London constituency, and I say that we are prepared to support the Bill to the full limit. We say that it is important that a working man should keep his child at school another year and that there should be a payment of 5s. maintenance allowance. The object of hon. Members in this Amendment is to cut down that allowance.
No.
Oh, yes, it is. It is to have a court of inquiry. We understand all these nice things which you say on the public platforms. One of your representatives
came down to my constituency and talked through the back of his neck. I know exactly what you mean. You wish to run the tape over all working men and women who come along in order to secure extended education for their children. You are going to examine their incomes and their outgoings, and on the basis of that finding you are going to decide how much the allowance shall be. That is the object. The words "charity organisation society" are written over it all. That is the object of your Amendment, and, as far as we are concerned, we are going to fight against the principle of it. I think that 5s. a week is too small a sum. Some of your boys who go to Westminster School spend 5s. a day. [An HON. MEMBER: "Tuck money."] I have seen them coming from there. It costs at least 5s. a week to keep your boys in sweets. Yet they say that 5s. a week is too much for the child of a worker, in order that it may have the advantage of a better education.
I have listened to hon. Members opposite in support of the Amendment, and it is clear that there is a definite conflict of view between that side and this side on the matter. I agree frankly and fully that it is possible for the hon. and gallant Member who moved the Amendment to devise a scheme to settle the conditions under which allowances may be given in accordance with the point of view that he has advanced, but that is not our view. Our view is that there should be a simple test, and that that test should be as simple as possible. That test we have submitted in the White Paper. If the hon. and gallant Member will look at page 5 of the report of the Committee of Education Authorities he will find that they lay down three cardinal principles that should apply to any maintenance allowance scheme. Two of those principles were that there should be a definite minimum level of income below which an award of maintenance allowance should be automatic, and that there should be a maximum level above which no award should be made.
We have accepted those two principles; we are leaving it to regulations to give a scale between the minimum and the maximum. The two cardinal principles which we have accepted are embodied in the proposal in the White Paper. That is as far as we can go. With regard to the definite conflict of opinion between the two sides of the House, there is no bridge that can be thrown to gulf the gap that separates us. Therefore, I am sorry that I cannot accept the Amendment, although I agree cordially that a case can be put up for the Amendment, once one has accepted that point of view. Even if the proposal were accepted as embodied in the Amendment it would involve a considerable amount of work for the local authorities. They will have to make the most meticulous inquiry into the rent return and into the minutiæe of the return. That would require a great deal of inquiry and checking, and I cannot think that the hon. and gallant Member, even with his experience of local authorities, has visualised to the full the extra trouble that would be entailed upon local authorities in carrying out what is implied by the Amendment.
I do not see exactly where the difference in the point of view lies in the matter. I understand that the hon. Member accepts the view that the maintenance allowance is supposed to be given on the basis of need. I only want to ensure that, once the scale of maintenance allowance has been fixed, only those will get it who are entitled to it.
We take strong exception to the principle of these meticulous inquiries concerning rent, whether the rent return is accurate, and whether they have any lodgers or any extra income. On that matter there is no point of contact between us.
If you are going to admit the principle that this money is to be given to those who need it most, the Amendment only carries out in a more efficient way the principle already accepted by the Government. If there are to be prescribed limits such as are set out in the White Paper then the Amendment only makes the various figures more efficient. I admit that it may necessitate a certain amount of inquiry on the part of the local authorities, but we have already heard that inquiries have been carried out by the London County Council. I cannot see that there is between us in regard to this matter so wide a divergence of opinion as the Parliamentary Secretary tries to make out. The Amendment merely makes the figures more efficient. It is obvious that an agricultural labourer who is living in a cottage, which may be a good cottage, at a rent of 2s. 6d. a week cannot be in the same financial position as an individual who lives in a town and has to pay 7s. 6d. or 10s. a week rent. We do not say what the standard amount should be. We have not suggested any figure. The right hon. Gentleman can fix his own figure. The principle of the Amendment is that when the figure has been, fixed the figure should be efficient and should have some relation to the real needs of the people who are going to get the benefit.
I would like the Parliamentary Secretary to explain what he meant by saying that the Government have accepted two of the principles set out by the Committee of Local Education Authorities, on page 5 of their report. He said that the Government had accepted the principle of a definite minimum level of income and a definite maximum level of income, but on turning to the White Paper I cannot see that there is any maximum or minimum level. There simply seems to be one standard income adopted.
If a parson has more than £3 per week income and two children or less, then obviously that person is not entitled to an allowance. The income scales ascend until we find that where a parent has seven children or more his total income is £5 5s. to qualify for an allowance.
But surely that is not the same thing as taking a minimum income and a maximum income irrespective of the number of children. I submit that the proposal put forward by my hon. Friend meets the recommendation of the local education authorities better than the proposals of the Bill. I was rather interested in what the Parliamentary Secretary said on the subject of inquiry as to means. He said that there was a great gulf fixed between his party and hon. Members on this side and that the Government were determined to have no inquiry. The Parliamentary Secretary seems to indicate dissent. I may not be giving his exact words but I think he said that they took the strongest objections to an inquiry. That is the impression he conveyed to me. I thought the Government had accepted an Amendment from the benches below the Gangway, and the President of the Board himself assured us that inquiries by a local education authority will be possible.
indicated dissent.
Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary will explain exactly what he meant because I am sure hon. Members on this side when he was speaking about the idea of an inquiry—
Perhaps the Noble Lady will quote what I said. I said that we object to a meticulous inquiry into such subjects as rent and rates and lodgers.
I am sorry that I did not include the word "meticulous." But is it such a meticulous thing to ascertain the amount of the rent? Is it so difficult to ascertain the amount of the rates; is not rent one of the things which must be considered? I should have thought that it was easier to ascertain the rent than to ascertain the income from all sources. There is not a great deal in that point, and, after all, what is the value of these inquiries which the right hon. Gentleman says the local education committee will be able to make unless it includes such matters as rent and rates? The impression conveyed by the Parliamentary Secretary on the question of inquiry into means makes the so-called concession of the Government on this point very much in the nature of eyewash. The hon. Member for Silvertown (Mr. J. Jones) has once more treated us to a characteristic dissertation. If he will read what I said a few days ago he will see the facts upon which he founded his allegations—
If the Noble Lady cares to discuss the matter with me I will meet her anywhere she likes in England to debate the matter.
The CHAIRMAN: This is not the place to issue challenges.
If the hon. Member will apply in the proper quarter he will find the facts; and as to what he says about young fellows in some schools spending so much on sweets—which I should deplore as much as anybody—he will probably find that there is as little truth in that statement as there is in the other allegations he has made.
The Parliamentary Secretary has said that he does not want a meticulous inquiry into rent, rates and compulsory insurance. An inquiry into rent may be a little meticulous, but rates and compulsory insurance are very easy to ascertain. He went on, however, to include lodgers and other forms of income. I should like to know what the Government mean by "income from all sources" which a man has to return. I know what it means in the case of Income Tax, and I should think it means precisely the same under this Bill. Let there be no mistake about it, there is going to be a most meticulous inquiry, and if the payment made by the lodger is not included it will be a false return and bring the person within the criminal clause of the Bill. Hon. Members opposite must not think that under this Bill there is not going to be a meticulous inquiry, there certainly will—
Does the hon. and gallant Member say that money received from a lodger is to be defined as income? What about what you give him?
It is quite clear that a person who takes in a lodger does not do it for love of the lodger. [ Interruption. ] Perhaps I have put my reply somewhat broadly, but where a lodger is taken in it is not merely for the sake of having one extra person to cook for and look after. There is a certain amount of profit made by the family from the lodger who lives with them—
I know many landlords who make a sacrifice by taking in a lodger who may be in receipt of no wages at all. They give him a home.
In that case they would not return any profit from that lodger. That is where this meticulous inquiry will come in. There may be lodgers who may be in that position, they are there without payment, but there are others from whom the householder gets a substantial profit and that profit comes under the heading "income from all sources." What about the proprietor of an hotel who has to render an Income Tax return? Can he say that he need not take into account the income from people who come to stay in his hotel? In this case it is clear that the householder will have to include this payment in his return. The point of the Amendment is that there should be some discrimination between those who have to pay higher rents and rates and compulsory insurance and those who get away with easier rents, lesser rates and pay no compulsory insurance at all and who will have the greater spending power. The man with the high rent and rates and compulsory insurance would have a less spending power and might come below the limit which is applicable generally in this case. Our idea is to discriminate more or less between the highly rented people and those who pay low rents and rates. That is the only object of the Amendment.
There is a further point which ought to be raised. It was quite clear that the Parliamentary Secretary in his speech was verging on confusion as to what was happening under this part of the Bill. Apparently by some means the Minister is going to obtain knowledge of the maximum and minimum weekly income under this Subsection. We know that between £3 and £5 5s. there must be a great variety of cases, and that there must be some inquiry to find out precisely what the income is. I am not going to be led into the trap of discussing lodgers and landladies, for that course might induce hon. Members to give a variety of experiences in the matter. When the Parliamentary Secretary said that the words of the
Amendment would mean meticulous inquiry and all that kind of thing, I think he was rather overstepping a reasonable proposition. He said that we wanted to have very close inquiry into the circumstances of these people. He must know that there is no one in this Committee who dislikes inquiries more than I do, not only because they are a waste of people's time, but because of the infinite cost. Moreover they mean the piling up of officials and the giving of trouble to citizens.
I maintain that if the short and clear words of the Amendment were incorporated in the Bill, they would improve the Bill. Compulsory insurance and rent are not difficult matters to ascertain. The Amendment would make everything much simpler. Its effect would be that local authorities would be told not to make too close inquiries or to be too meticulous. The Parliamentary Secretary tried to make out that this was anew form of inquisition. The Amendment is far from being that. It is a simplification of what may well take place unless some such proposal is adopted. The Amendment would simplify the Minister's position and that of the local authorities. Unless the Amendment is adopted, it would be in the power of the local authorities to make far wider inquiries, and we might have the Minister issuing reams and reams of memoranda telling the authorities how to do this work. For the sake of clarity and for the sake of the individuals themselves and for ease in administration, it would be much simpler for the Government to accept the Amendment.
Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 123; Noes, 258.
Division No. 75.] AYES. [9.1 p.m. Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Bird, Ernest Roy Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Cobb, Sir Cyril Albery, Irving James Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W. Colfox, Major William Philip Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l., W.) Boyce, H. L. Colville, Major D. J. Allen, W. E. D. (Belfast, W.) Bracken, B. Cranborne, Viscount Atholl, Duchess of Brass, Captain Sir William Crichton-Stuart, Lord C. Atkinson, C. Briscoe, Richard George Croom-Johnson, R. P. Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley) Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) Dalrymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey Balfour, George (Hampstead) Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet) Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Balniel, Lord Campbell, E. T. Dawson, Sir Philip Beaumont, M. W. Carver, Major W. H. Dixey, A. C. Bellairs, Commander Carlyon Cautley, Sir Henry S. Eden, Captain Anthony Betterton, Sir Henry B. Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.) Bevan, S. J. (Holborn) Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston) Everard, W. Lindsay Falle, Sir Bertram G. Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart Ferguson, Sir John Makins, Brigadier-General E. Savery, S. S. Fielden, E. B. Margesson, Captain H. D. Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome Ford, Sir P. J. Marjoribanks, Edward Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Galbraith, J. F. W. Meller, R. J. Smithers, Waldron Ganzoni, Sir John Merriman, Sir F. Boyd Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Mitchell-Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Moore, Sir Newton J. (Richmond) Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur Gritten, W. G. Howard Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester) Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F. Gunston, Captain D. W. Nelson, Sir Frank Todd, Capt. A. J. Hammersley, S. S. Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Hartington, Marquess of Nicholson, O. (Westminster) Turton, Robert Hugh Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon Haslam, Henry C. O'Neill, Sir H. Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey) Henderson, capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. Peake, Capt. Osbert Warrender, Sir Victor Herbert, Sir Dennis (Hertford) Penny, Sir George Waterhouse, Captain Charles Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Wells, Sydney R. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Rawson, Sir Cooper Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay) Hurd, Percy A Reid, David D. (County Down) Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Kindersley, Major G. M. Remer, John R. Winterton, Rt Hon. Earl Law, Sir Alfred (Derby, High Peak) Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch't'sy) Withers, Sir John James Leighton, Major B. E. P. Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Womersley, W. J. Lewis, Oswald (Colchester) Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton Little, Dr. E. Graham Salmon, Major I. Llewellin, Major J. J. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) TELLERS FOR THE AYES .—.— Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Sir Frederick Thomson and Major the Marquess of Titchfield.
NOES. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Duncan, Charles Kelly, W. T. Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Ede, James Chuter Kennedy, Thomas Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Edmunds, J. E. Kenworthy Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Aitchison, Rt. Hon. Craigie M. Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Knight, Holford Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro') Edwards, E. (Morpeth) Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George Alpass, J. H. Elmley, Viscount Lathan, G. Ammon, Charles George England, Colonel A. Law, Albert (Bolton) Angell, Norman Forgan, Dr. Robert Law, A. (Rossendale) Arnott, John Freeman, Peter Lawrence, Susan Aske, Sir Robert Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge) Attlee, Clement Richard Gibbins, Joseph Lawson, John James Ayles, Walter Gibson, H. M. (Lancs, Mossley) Leach, W Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Gill, T. H. Lee, Frank (Derby, N. E.) Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley) Glassey, A. E. Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern) Barnes, Alfred John Gossling, A. G. Lees, J. Barr, James Gould, F. Lewis, T. (Southampton) Batey, Joseph Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Lindley, Fred W. Bellamy, Albert Granville, E. Lloyd, C. Ellis Bennett, William (Battersea, South) Gray, Milner Logan, David Gilbert Benson, G. Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne). Longbottom, A. W. Bentham, Dr. Ethel Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Longden, F. Birkett, W. Norman Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.) Lovat-Fraser, J. A. Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Lowth, Thomas Bowen, J. W. Groves Thomas E. Lunn, William Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Grundy, Thomas W. Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) Broad, Francis Alfred Hall, F. (York. W. R., Normanton) MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham) Brockway, A. Fenner Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw) Bromfield, William Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.) McElwee, A. Bromley, J. Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn) McEntee, V. L. Brothers, M. Hardie, George D. McGovern, J. (Glasgow, Shettleston) Brown, C. W. E. (Notts. Mansfield) Harris, Percy A. McKinlay, A. Brown, Ernest (Leith) Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon MacLaren, Andrew Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire) Hastings, Dr. Somerville Maclean, Sir Donald (Cornwall, N.) Buchanan, G. Haycock, A. W. Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Burgess, F. G. Hayday, Arthur Marcus, M. Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland) Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) Markham, S. F. Caine, Derwent Hall- Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) Marley, J. Cameron, A. G. Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) Marshall, Fred Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.) Herriotts, J. Mathers, George Charleton, H. C. Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth) Matters, L. W. Chater, Daniel Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Maxton, James Church, Major A. G. Hoffman, P. C. Messer, Fred Cluse, W. S. Hollins, A. Middleton, G. Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Hore-Belisha, Leslie Mills, J. E. Compton, Joseph Horrabin, J. F. Milner, Major J. Cove, William G. Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) Montague, Frederick Cowan, D. M. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Morgan, Dr. H. B. Daggar, George John, William (Rhondda, West) Morley, Ralph Dalton, Hugh Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Morris, Rhys Hopkins Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh) Day, Harry Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne) Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South) Denman, Hon. R. D. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.) Dudgeon, Major C. R. Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. w. Mort, D. L. Dukes, C. Jowitt, Sir W. A. (Preston) Moses, J. J. H. Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent) Salter, Dr. Alfred Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Mosley, Sir Oswald (Smethwick) Sanders, W. S. Tillett, Ben Muff, G. Sandham, E. Tinker, John Joseph Muggeridge, H. T. Sawyer, G. F. Toole, Joseph Naylor, T. E. Sexton, James Tout, W. J. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Shakespeare, Geoffrey H. Townend, A. E. Noel-Buxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N.) Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Oldfield, J. R. Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Vaughan, D. J. Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston) Sherwood, G. H. Viant, S. P. Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley) Shield, George William Walkden, A. G. Palin, John Henry Shiels, Dr. Drummond Walker, J. Paling, Wilfrid Shillaker, J. F. Wallace, H. W. Palmer, E. T. Shinwell, E. Wallhead, Richard C. Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Watkins, F. C. Perry, S. F. Simmons, C. J. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Sinkinson, George Wellock, Wilfred Phillips, Dr. Marion Sitch, Charles H. West, F. R. Picton-Turbervill, Edith Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Westwood, Joseph Pole, Major D. G. Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) White, H. G. Potts, John S. Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley) Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood) Price, M. P. Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Whiteley, William (Blaydon) Pybus, Percy John Smith, Tom (Pontefract) Wilkinson, Ellen C. Ramsay, T. B. Wilson Smith, W. R. (Norwich) Williams, David (Swansea, East) Rathbone, Eleanor Snell, Harry Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Raynes, W. R. Snowden, Thomas (Accrington) Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Richards, R. Sorensen, R. Wilson, J. (Oldham) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Stamford, Thomas W. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Riley, Ben (Dewsbury) Stephen, Campbell Winterton, G. E. (Leicester, Loughb'gh) Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees) Strauss, G. R. Wise, E. F. Ritson, J. Sullivan, J. Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff) Romeril, H. G. Sutton, J. E. Rosbotham, D. S. T. Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln) TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —— Rowson, Guy Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S. W.) Mr. Hayes and Mr. Thurtle.
Mr. Morgan Jones.
On a point of Order. I do not wish to do anything which would be considered improper, but may I point out, Mr. Young, that you have passed over a small but very substantial point in the Amendment which stands in the name of two of my hon. Friends in page 5, line 18, after the word "on" to insert the words "and maintained by."
Every Member who has an Amendment on the Paper tells me that his point is very important. I have tried to the best of my ability to select the important points and I have not selected the Amendment to which the Noble Lord refers.
I beg to move, in page 5, line 22, at the end, to insert the words:
"4. If a local education authority for elementary education make representations to the Board of Education as regards the economic conditions in their area, the power of the Board to make regulations for the purposes of this Part of this Schedule shall include power to prescribe special limits of income to be applicable in the case of claimants in respect of children residing in that area."
We have heard repeatedly in the course of the discussions on this Bill the assertion, which need not necessarily be accepted in its entirety, that there is not sufficient flexibility in the powers which exist and the powers which the Board of Education has laid down for local authorities in respect of the duties devolving upon them under this Measure. This Amendment will have the effect of introducing a certain measure of flexibility, in that the local education authorities, by means of the powers here proposed, will be enabled to make representations to the President of the Board concerning the economic conditions prevalent in their several areas. The President of the Board will, of course, give proper attention to those representations coming from the local education authority and will consider how far the circumstances support the contentions which the local authorities advance. The Amendment provides a medium whereby local education authorities, feeling that special attention is called for by the special difficulties or special needs of their areas, shall have access to the President so as to place their cases before him.
I was waiting for some enlightenment from hon. Members below the Gangway, as this Amendment we have been given to understand, is one of the terms of the famous compact—or is it only "contact"? This proposal is part of the price exacted, we understand, by the Liberal party for accepting the rest of this Bill—actually, this revolutionary proposal that the Board of Education is to be given the power to recognise the fact that the economic conditions of any area in this country, are not precisely the same as the conditions of every other area! Truly that is a revolutionary proposal. Now we have the situation, as a result of the Amendment, that the Board of Education, instead of being bound to adopt rigidly one set income limit for every area in the country, can prescribe differently if the local education authority comes to the Board in a proper attitude of humility and on bended knee. Then, at the request and the prayer of the local authority, the President may be graciously pleased to admit that the conditions in, say, Buckinghamshire or Devonshire, are not wholly the same as the conditions in Newcastle-on-Tyne. That is the extent of the concession which the Government have made in this matter.
Is not that rather a free translation?
The hon. and learned Member knows full well from the number of times that he has had to interpret Acts of Parliament, that a free translation is the only means by which the wording of an Act of Parliament can be translated into language understanded of the people, and there lies one of the dangers of this Bill.
This is not an Act of Parliament, but only a Bill. Do not make the translation too free.
It is quite certain that the hon. and learned Gentleman, irrespective of the merits of the Bill, wishes to convert it into an Act, and therefore I must assume that it is already an Act. If I could by any means persuade him of its demerits, I would treat it as a Bill. This is the extent of the meaning of this revolutionary Amendment. What are the local education authorities and the Board of Education going to discuss in those elaborate confabulations which the Amendment provides? It is the taxation of the country. They are to consider whether a certain contribution is to be levied on the taxpayers and ratepayers of the country, or whether they are going to be graciously pleased to reduce that burden on obliged to increase it. Those are the things to be considered in these confabulations. According as to whether the President of the Board of Education and the chairman of a local education authority agrees that on the whole the income limit in this Bill should be slightly raised or lowered, the taxpayers and the ratepayers all over England will have to contribute more or less to the national Exchequer. That is the constitutional position in which the Board of Education is placed by this amazing proposal. The Parliamentary Secretary is not, I know, influenced by these considerations. He looks forward with some gusto to the proud position of being able to levy Ship Money, like Charles I, on his pure administrative discretion, but there are still some rights in this House, and he must not expect the official Opposition to give him support for this nugatory and absurd Amendment.
I am not satisfied that the wording of this Amendment is such that we can allow it to go by without some explanation. In the debate on the Second Reading, I had occasion to traverse the arguments of one of the Members of the Liberal party, and to make the point clear that the monetary value in agricultural areas was just as vital as it is in the towns. I want to be perfectly clear that under no circumstances will this give any power of any kind to any education authority to lower the scales in respect of children going to schools in those areas.
I hope that we shall have some explanation from the Minister. I am much concerned about the reference to "the economic conditions" in an area. I am the more concerned because I have discovered it entering into various agreements in connection with wages, and the trouble that it causes does not make one feel at all happy in accepting it in this Amendment. If it means that there will be no reduction of any kind in the amount to be paid for maintenance grants, or if it means that there is a possibility of an increase, I am prepared to accept it, but under the words of the Amendment, I can imagine that in some of those districts where it is stated that people can live at a much cheaper rate than people in other districts, they will say that because of what are termed the economic conditions of the area, it warrants a reduction in the amount of the grant. I hope that the President will put something into the Bill, to prevent any doubt, that nothing less than the figure which is mentioned in the Bill is to be paid for maintenance. I should like to know also what is meant by "special limits of income" applicable in those cases. It is held that in some of the rural areas the cost of living—an awful term which everybody has abused, including all Governments—is such that it is possible to live at a cheaper rate than in other areas, but one can prove that in some of those districts which are termed rural it costs a great deal more to live than in some larger towns. I can appreciate that some of the people who sit on education committees might hold that a smaller amount per child should be paid. If that be so, and if there be any attempt to reduce this amount, which is already too low, I hope that there will be a fight, no matter what the consequences.
I would like some assurance from the President as to what will be the interpretation of the Amendment. I represent a very distressed area that is denied work because it will cause a rise in rates, and is denied housebuilding because that will cause a rise in rates; and we are now confronted with a Bill under which, I am told, the rates will be raised. Will it be possible for a distressed area to come to the Minister and say, "Because of our condtions, we cannot work this part of the Act at all? We cannot afford to raise the necessary 40 per cent. or to get the money for the allowances for the children who will come into the schools between the ages of 14 and 15?" I want to know whether this will prevent distressed areas getting any benefit at all under the Act, while being made to pay their share as taxpayers? This is a very important question for all distressed areas. I am not speaking merely for the borough of Merthyr Tydvil, which I have the honour to represent, but I think I can claim with justice that what I say for them applies to the whole county areas of Glamorgan, Monmouth and Durham.
If what I fear is likely to be the outcome of the Amendment, then as far as these vast areas are concerned, which are very densely populated because of the large number of persons employed round the coal pits, it is going to be a very serious matter. I should like to know precisely where such areas will stand. If I had had an opportunity, I would have moved to put the whole burden on the State, where it ought to be. It should not be carried by the localities. I urge that we should be given something from the Front Bench to reassure the localities in regard to the position in which they may find themselves if this Amendment is carried.
The hon. Member who has just spoken is, I think, under some misapprehension as to the meaning of this Amendment. In the first place, it does not refer to the 5s. There is no alteration in that. It refers only to the prescribed income limits. It does not alter the income limits, but enables representations to be made to the Board of Education in regard to the income limits. Special rates might be prescribed by the Board, either up or down. It would be possible to do it. The general policy of the Government and my own general intention are clear in the White Paper. If a local authority chose to make representations that it considered, owing to its economic conditions, that they ought to be either higher or lower, I could take that into consideration and could, if I liked, make special income limits by regulation. I am bound to say that when you consider that these limits may have to stretch over a good many years, it is not unreasonable to suppose that there may be conditions in which some variations may be desirable. I can conceive conditions being such that it would be desirable to raise them. I can conceive the cost of living varying so much that it would be reasonable to lower them, but to reassure hon. Members let me remind them that we are in a few minutes going to put in a proviso that the regulations can be reviewed by this House. Therefore, the House can exercise its influence over them if it is thought that on any occasion the Minister of Education unwisely gives way to advice from local authorities.
Reading the Amendment, I cannot get as much consolation as I should have expected from the speech of the right hon. Gentleman. I do not quite understand what the words "economic conditions" mean in this connection. May I put it in this way? The county borough of Bournemouth has a certain number of children per thousand of the population and has, I believe, less elementary school children than any other county borough. It has a very high rateable value. The rateable value per child in attendance is, comparatively speaking, an enormous figure. I have the honour to represent South Shields, which has the largest number of elementary school children per thousand of the population of any county borough in England, and it has a very low figure of rateable value per child in average attendance. The consequence is that the poorest districts will have the most children to deal with under this Clause. Will the words "economic conditions" cover that kind of thing? Will the county borough of South Shields, or some other borough similarly circumstanced, be in a position to come to the Board of Education and say, "We, out of our poverty, have got to bear this very high charge, far higher than that of Bournemouth and other districts"?
Taking only two county areas, for which I can give the exact figures, the produce of a penny rate per child in average 'attendance in the county of Surrey is 7s. 6d. The product of a penny rate per child in the county of Durham is 2s. 6d. The number of elementary school children in proportion to the population is far lower in Surrey than in Durham. That, again is a question of economic circumstances. I know that my right hon. Friend is going to be at the Board for a great number of years—at least 20. [ Interruption .] Well, the best of men die young. Excellent as is this Government of which he is a member, large numbers of hon. and right hon. Members opposite go about trying to slay it, and one night by accident they may do it, though, I am afraid, not by design. [HON. MEMBERS: "Suicide!"] That is a crime in this country if you are caught at it. The right hon. Gentleman may be succeeded in the distant future by somebody who may not take the same view of these words as he does, not even the interpretation of the Noble Lord opposite. Quite a different interpretation might be placed upon them in the Courts. I hope the country will realise that this form of words is part of the price this party has had to pay to Liberalism for this Measure. It is significant, also, that we have not had a word from the Liberal benches in support of this form of words, which we understand satisfies the Liberals. My right hon. Friend must admit that I have not been critical of him during the discussions on this Bill, but I view with very grievous misgivings this form of words, and 1 hope that before the Bill leaves this House more consideration will be given to how wide this form of words is and whether it does limit the power of the Board in the future to decide only the cases to which the right hon. Gentleman wishes it to apply.
I think hon. Members opposite who have complained that this form of words may have a very bad effect in densely-populated districts have overlooked the fact that their arguments apply with equal force to the whole of the Bill in its financial provisions. Not very long ago an Act was passed which laid down a formula—though nobody understood that formula at the time it has since proved to be a perfectly sound one—under which density of population was a very important factor in deciding the relative wealth or poverty of any particular district. In the finance of the Bill as a whole we find the position will be that the distressed areas will have to pay more because of the fact that they are more densely populated. With this form of words, even if we accept the principle of it, we may, by means of local taxation, put a much greater burden upon the local rates in the very districts we are trying to help. I suggest that the Amendment should be taken back for reconsideration of its effect upon districts which it is apparently designed to help.
As I listened to the Minister's speech I could not but feel how consoling his concluding sentences must have been to the hon. Member for Aberavon (Mr. Cove). The right hon. Gentleman informed the hon. Member that he intended the regulations to be laid before Parliament. No doubt the hon. Member will then be able to complain of having to go into the Lobby in support of his party, which would make his protest a barren one. I am very much surprised at the wording of the Minister's Amendment, with special reference to the phrase "economic con- ditions." I agree with the hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. Kelly) that in a district where the rateable value is very low and the amount of unemployment is high, the rates will be high and that in such a case it will be possible to argue that the district is not in a position to afford an allowance of 5s. a child to people who are earning £3 a week or over. In the conditions prevailing in such an area such a wage might be regarded as making people relatively prosperous. As this Amendment is drafted, that would be a ground for the local authority to come to the Minister with the suggestion that the limit should be reduced to £2 a week.
The Minister himself said he could conceive of cases where a lowering might be reasonable. Then the Minister went on to say that if the cost of living altered, the present income limit might become stultified. In that respect I do not see how this Amendment can help us. He has taken no power, which might have been a reasonable power, to have a general review of the income limits over a series of years, except, I suppose, under the general power of making new Regulations if he does not like the existing ones; but if the cost of living came down, this Amendment could only operate through each separate local authority making application for a revision of the income limit on that ground, and I rather doubt whether a general fall in the cost of living could be regarded as an "economic condition" affecting the area of that particular authority. The Amendment, in short, seems to be one of those thoroughly sloppy Amendments which we associate with the Liberal party.
I am sure the Committee would feel disappointed if they did not have a word from these benches, and I should hate to disappoint them particularly when we have had a challenge such as that which fell from the hon. and gallant Member for Oxford (Captain Bourne) in describing this as a "sloppy Amendment." Only recently the Committee were discussing an Amendment in some-what different form but with a similar effect. It was an Amendment to have two scales of income, a higher and a lower, and to give the education authority power, within those two limits, to make their own regulations. This Amendment is not on all fours with that one, but it has a relation to it. What the Minister has done is to provide his own standard for the country generally. This Amendment gives power to any local authority which considers that standard to be inapplicable to its area to ask to have it revised, and I am astounded that there should be any objection to such procedure from any section of the Committee.
Surely we in Parliament, who place onerous duties upon local authorities, will not take up the attitude that the men and women who administer our Acts are to have no discretion, no power even to make representations. The Amendment does not give any power to a local authority to alter the limit; all it does is to give it power to make representations if it considers the limit is unjustified in its area. Hon. Members of the Conservative party appear to think that members of local authorities have no rights, not even the right to make representations to a Minister. I am equally surprised to find hon. Members opposite denying them this right. They themselves are anxious to be represented on these local authorities, and yet apparently they do not want the local authorities to have the right of making a representation to the Minister. The Noble Lord seemed to think that we on these benches ought to make some acknowledgment in regard to this Amendment. I do not know why we should do so, but we are quite prepared to support the Minister, and if the Amendment is carried to a Division we shall support it in the Lobby.
I congratulate the hon. Member for Mid Bedfordshire (Mr. Gray), for many reasons. He disagreed with my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Oxford (Captain Bourne) in referring to this Amendment as a "sloppy Amendment." May I say that I agree with the hon. Member for Mid Bedfordshire in thinking that it is not a sloppy Amendment. I think it is a hurriedly drafted and cunning Amendment. When the Parliamentary Secretary originally proposed it he submitted it on the ground of its great "flexibility"—that was the word he used. The object of a flexible Amendment is that it shall be capable of being used in many and vari- ous ways. Those who have had experience of the working of certain minds in this House know that when they try to get flexible Amendments into a Bill there are a great many hidden meanings. May I draw their attention to some of the older speeches of the Liberal party? They would not be unwise to remember that even to-day there are Liberals who would not hesitate to use an Amendment such as this for the most trivial rules and regulations. That is one of the reasons why I dislike an Amendment of this kind.
We have had discussion about what is meant by the "economic conditions in an area." The Minister has not really met that point at all. Some mention has been made of a large agricultural area. I would like to emphasise the fact that there are many conditions, in connection with schools and things of that kind, which in a large agricultural area make the difficulties very much greater. One of the hon. Members for Wales produced particulars for a county that has always been poor. I have no doubt that in two and a half years that county will be very wealthy, after the return of a Conservative and Protectionist Government, and might very well come under the wealthier areas. I advise the hon. Member to inquire very carefully as to how that change will affect its economic conditions. After such a change, very few of the hon. Members opposite will be in this House. Under this Bill money is to be raised, and it is just as well to have clearly laid down exactly what you mean, and exactly how you are going to spend the money. It is all very well bringing in an Amendment of this kind, but you should remember where the Amendment came from, what its maternity or paternity is. I am not going to be responsible for it, whatever my view on the subject may be. I most strongly advise hon. Gentlemen opposite to go with very great care into the question of where the Amendment came from.
I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman has finished, but I want to bring him back to the Amendment.
I realise that paternity and maternity are very awkward subjects, but I used them only as an illustration of the difficulties into which hon. Members get when they bring forward Amendments of this kind. Some of the arguments which were used by the Minister when we were discussing the last Amendment entirely discount the arguments which he has raised on this one. If there is a Division, I shall certainly vote against the Amendment, which leads to enormous administrative complications and, in the hands of many Ministers of Education, would lead to gross abuses, waste of public money and hardships on the local authorities.
I do not propose to follow my hon. Friend's argument. This Amendment is a most interesting illustration of how very far we have been led by the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Education upon the road that we in this country are not accustomed to travel, the road that leads to complete bureaucratic government. Consider how far the local education authority is deprived of power. At present the Authority has power to raise the school age, it grants exemptions and varies the maintenance allowance that may be granted to the parents of children who stay in the elementary schools beyond the school age, according to the needs of the child's parents and the needs of the area. There is no uniformity whatever. Now the authority is to have no power to deal by bylaw with the raising of the school age nor to grant exemption. These powers are taken from it by the Board of Education. The local education authorities are denied the power for which they asked when the Minister invited them to advise him, namely, the power to vary within certain narrow limits the income that might be recognised as requiring assistance. All they are told is that they may come on bended knees to represent to the Department that conditions in their area make it necessary to have a limit different from that which the Minister has put into the regulations. I submit that this is reducing the local education authorities to a position of impotence and almost of humiliation such as they have not known before.
The local education authorities have been very proud of the partnership in the administration of education which they share with the Board of Education. I should have said that there was a very fine balance of power between them and the Board, a balance which a Minister tampers with at his peril. The Board of Education is taking away these powers that local education authorities have had since 1870, and is giving them only this miserable power that they may come on their knees and represent that there are special conditions in their areas. I cannot think that this humiliation will increase the local authorities' sense of responsibility and interest in their work. I have, however, to admit that this Amendment goes, in however undesirable and bureaucratic a manner, and to however small an extent, in the direction which I and others have been advocating this afternoon, namely, that there should be some flexibility between areas. Therefore, I shall not advise my hon. Friends behind me, if they ask me for advice, to divide against the Amendment.
I cannot think that the Amendment reflects the mind of the Liberal party. The spokesman of the party has at least endorsed the principle. I regard it as the most dangerous Amendment that has been moved right through the Committee stage. We who represent agricultural areas know that the wage level, generally speaking, makes the economic conditions in those areas. I can see a reactionary local authority making representations to the Board of Education that in view of the low wage level a new basis upon which the 5s. shall be granted shall be made by regulation, and become operative 20 days after the regulation has been laid on the Table of the House.
I know in what direction this is going to operate. I can visualise two areas side by side, the children from which go to the same school—the one an area which has made an application for a lower basis governing the 5s., and the other under the higher rate governing the allowance. I know of nothing that will harm the whole working of this Measure more than to have such anomalies working irritation and agitation among children and parents. The seed here is pernicious and dangerous in its application. If I could be sure that the right hon. Gentleman would remain at the Board for the next 10 years, until the Act becomes established, I should feel happier, but I cannot but regard this as too big a price for the basis of agreement, and I desire that we should go into the Division Lobbies, if we are called upon to do so, with our eyes open, knowing that this is going to result, especially in the lower-paid rural areas, in a percentage of discontent which will ruin the whole spirit in which I hope the Bill will become an Act and its work will begin.
I sincerely hope that the right hon. Gentleman will take this Amendment back and reconsider it, if only for one reason, and that is that there may be a clearer explanation as to what is meant by the "economic conditions" of the area. I am presuming that the right hon. Gentleman will occupy his place for another 10 years, but I do not envy him the number of deputations from local authorities—from the Tory rural areas throughout the country—who will come to him to represent that the conditions in their areas are such that they want some modification of the income level. My own personal view is that this proposal is exceedingly dangerous, and I am sure I am speaking on behalf of nearly everyone on these benches when I say that we shall be very pleased if the right hon. Gentleman will take this Amendment back and reconsider its wording.
I support the appeal to my right hon. Friend to take this Amendment back and reconsider it. I can assure him that there is very great perturbation on this side of the Committee in regard to its effect. It is perfectly clear, and I accept the statement of my right hon. Friend, that this Amendment will not affect the 5s. as a sum. It will not mean that some children will get 6s. and others 5s. But what it will mean is that in the rural areas as a whole you may get a lower income level, and, therefore, a large number of rural children may be cut out of the benefit of the 5s. Therefore, I see one great danger in this proposal in regard to the rural as opposed to the urban side, and that is that a limit of income will be fixed which will involve a lower standard of life in the rural areas as against the higher standard that might be acceptable in the urban areas. On that ground I would ask my right hon. Friend to reconsider the proposal. I should imagine that those Liberal Members who have been present here to-night are themselves beginning to doubt the wisdom of this Amendment. I have no doubt that it has been pressed upon the Liberal party by a section of the rural Members who want to retain their seats and yet be said to support a Bill for the raising of the school age. I would ask my right hon. Friend not to take undue notice of that suggestion against the undoubted wishes of the majority of his party on this side.
10.0 p.m.
With regard to the urban areas, what does the phrase "economic conditions" mean? Does it mean merely the wage rate in the area? Does it mean merely the cost of living in the area? If it does, then, as there are 318 local education authorities, it will be possible, if the Minister agrees, to have 318 different income limits applying throughout the country. I admit that that is driving the proposal to its ultimate logical end, but there is certainly the possibility of a. large number of varying income limits. I would ask my right hon. Friend whether, when the local authorities come before him they will be able to argue as to the burden of their rates, or as to the depression in industry in their various areas? Is it to be said that a Labour Government will be fixing income limits which depend upon the depression in industry in various parts of the country? Is it to be said that in Merthyr, in Rhondda, in the distressed areas throughout Durham and throughout Lancashire now, and, indeed, throughout a large area of our industrial districts, because the industries are depressed in those areas, the economic conditions are such that the income limit must be higher or lower than in other areas. That is a very bad and unsound principle. These maintenance allowances should not depend upon the economic conditions in the various areas. It was never intended that they should. It was intended that a. maintenance grant should be given to children to keep them in food and clothing, and 5s. a week, whatever the economic conditions in whatever area, is not too much to pay for food and clothes for our children. Therefore, I appeal to the Minister with all the strength that I can command. We are not putting an extreme position. It has been supported by all Members on this side of the Committee who have spoken to-night, and, with my hon. Friends who have spoken before me, I ask the Minister as strongly as I can to take this Amendment back, to throw off the shabby clothes of Liberalism, and to put on the clean, honest garment of Labour government. As he has said before, these children need feeding and clothing, and he has. done right in giving the parents something with which to feed and clothe them, but it is thoroughly unsound to make that feeding and clothing depend upon the economic conditions that may obtain in widespread rural areas or in particular industrial areas throughout the country. Therefore, I beg him to take the Amendment back and reconsider it.
I should be glad if the Committee could as soon as possible come to a decision on this Amendment. [ Interruption. ] May I say to my hon. Friends that I think their imagination is carrying them rather far? After all, what does this Amendment propose to do? It proposes to allow local authorities to make representations to the Board. It does not mean anything else as far as local authorities are concerned. [ Interruption. ] The Noble Lord has just been saying it. As far as local authorities are concerned, they can make representations to the Board, and the Board may, if it likes, propose special limits in special cases; but, I ask, is any responsible Minister likely to make 318 different limits? Is he likely to adopt variations all over the country? I can certainly say for myself that there will not be any large number of variations, but I will say another thing to my hon. Friends. They are afraid of the possibility of my not being here for the next 10 years; they are afraid of the Noble Lord taking my place. [ Interruption. ] Suppose that he does, and that for a year he works his evil way, or suppose that he does so for two years, or even five, at the end of that time, if I am still alive, you can have a change, and the change can be made without representations from the local authorities. The representation of the local authorities is a comparatively small thing, but it is a perfectly right thing to have, because local authorities ought to be able to advise the Minister, and there is no reason why there should not be some variation. But for me to give any wide variation is not necessary. There is no need why there should be a wide variation, and it is exceedingly unlikely that any Minister is going to have a large number of variations in the limits that he makes.
Really, the right hon. Gentleman must not implore the Committee to come to an early decision and then make a speech in which, first, he tells the hon. Members below the Gangway that the concession they have wrung out of him does not amount to much, that it means nothing at all so long as he is in office, but that, of course, it might mean something if somebody else came into office in a future year. But if that were so, the right hon. Gentleman would still be able to say to the country, "Whenever you send me back into office, I will come back into office with a coat pocket bulging with sovereigns for your children." That is the type of politics for which this proposal is preparing.
If the right hon. Gentleman will just come down out of the political clouds, and deal with the meaning of this Amendment, I shall be glad. I am quite aware that, as my noble Friend the Member for Kinross and Western (Duchess of Atholl) has already said, this Amendment does not mean very much at all. We are putting a certain number of sophistries on the Statute Book just to get the Government out of trouble with their allies below the gangway—I beg pardon; I mean their contemporary confederates below the gangway. We quite realise that that is the case, but what we must not put on the Statute Book even as a possible political manoeuvre, are words which do not convey some meaning, and I want to ask what these words do mean.
These words, "as regards the economic conditions in their area," may mean one of two quite different things. They may mean the scale of income and the scale of expenditure common among the parents of elementary school children in their area. That varies very widely from area to area, and I think it is perfectly justifiable, in spite of what any hon. Member may say, to say that in the areas where, if you like, the standard of living is comparatively low the income limits should be different from those in areas where the standard of living is comparatively high. The words may mean that, or they may mean the economic conditions of an area as a local government area. They may mean that Merthyr Tydfil cannot afford to pay maintenance allowances on these scales, and that the differential factor in the Board's formula of grant does not give a sufficient extra grant to Merthyr to enable Merthyr to pay these maintenance allowances. We know, as a matter of fact, that that very consideration has practically crippled the whole operation of the school feeding law in the whole of South Wales, except during the two years when the Lord Mayor's Fund was in operation and special grants were made to relieve the local authorities from their part of that burden.
We know that that sort of thing has happened in the past. Is that what "economic conditions" mean? Is it the economic conditions of the inhabitants of the area or the economic conditions of the local authorities in the area? Until I get an answer to that question, whatever my party views may be, I could not reconcile it with my dignity, if I may say so, as a Member of the House of Commons to vote for this Amendment, because I really do not know what it means; and the House of Commons ought to have some sort of idea of the meaning of the legislation that it is asked to pass.
I hope the right hon. Gentleman is satisfied with his ewe lamb, the one Amendment which he has brought forward for acceptance. Hardly has a speech been made from any side of the Committee in support of the Amendment, and yet we have to go through the farce of a Division, although no defence has been raised here for it except by the right hon. Gentleman himself. This Amendment confers on the local authorities the semblance, but not the reality, of independence, and it must lead to endless confusion. The Noble Lord below me has shown already two senses in which the phrase "economic conditions" might be applied by the local authorities, but it has not yet been said in this Committee that one local authority might use the argument one way and another in another way, and that therefore you might have the same set of facts applied in an opposite sense by different local authorities all over England.
This is the most ridiculous Amendment that could possibly have been brought forward by a responsible Minister in order to make a political compromise. I suppose the right hon. Gentleman thought that hon. Members on the mountain might be tempted to think this might mean more, but it is obvious on a closer analysis that it probably would not mean more and might very well mean less, and I can understand the apprehension of hon. Members opposite on the mountain when they realise that a Conservative Government is almost imminent, and that it will be open to them to interpret this obscure Amendment. We have not heard a defence of the Amendment from hon. Members below the Gangway on this side, and I should like to hear their interpretation of it, although I have a strong idea of what it may mean. It is only fair to warn hon. Members opposite before they vote in favour of the Amendment, because it may well be that a different interpretation from that put forward by the hon. Gentleman will be put upon it. Hon. Members on this side are not in favour of maintenance allowances, and this will give a considerable loophole to a Conservative Administration in the future. I advise them, as a disinterested friend, not to vote for the Amendment, and I advise them to remember the old Latin phrase,
I wonder if hon. Members opposite are satisfied with the explanation of this Amendment which has been given by the President of the Board of Education. I believe that almost every Member opposite who has spoken has spoken against the Amendment, and if they are against it, why do they not vote against it? We can only imagine on these benches that they will do exactly as they have done before, and simply run away because they are afraid of turning out the Government. Are they satisfied that the local authorities can only make demonstrations to the Board of Education? [ Interruption. ] We have
had the pistol put to the head of the Government. The gangsters below the Gangway have sent their ultimatum and the Government have to give way. That is a pretty position for any Government to find itself in. All their Members are against them, but they are afraid of a Division because they are afraid of turning the Government out. A few men who are not afraid of holding the Government to ransom are doing what they like with this rotten Government, and the sooner they turn them out the better.
Frankly, I dislike the Amendment, because an economically distressed area is the last sort of area where parents can afford to have imposed on them an extra year of attendance. But I cannot help thinking that hon. Members opposite are perturbing themselves quite unnecessarily as to the use that is likely to be made of it. The situation will be this. If over the greater part of the area of the country the allowances are being paid, the members of local authorities in distressed area, who, after all, have seats dependent on the votes of a working-class electorate, just as Members of Parliament do, are exceedingly unlikely to present a case for exceptions to be made on behalf of their area. It would be an extremely unpopular course of action to take, because it would be pointed out that benefits that were mainly being paid for by taxpayers and ratepayers all over the country were being withheld from that particular area. It seems to me, however, that the Amendment has this merit, that it affords a sort of safety valve if there is a very widespread feeling of discontent with the limits laid down, and, as I believe in safety valves as a means of testing the opinion of the country, I propose to support the Amendment although I believe and hope exceedingly little use will ever be made of it, whatever Government may be in power.
Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 244; Noes, 142.
Division No. 76.] AYES. [10.20 p.m. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Aske, Sir Robert Batey, Joseph Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Attlee, Clement Richard Bellamy, Albert Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Ayles, Walter Bennett, William (Battersea, South) Aitchison, Rt. Hon. Craigie M. Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Benson, G. Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro') Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley) Bentham, Dr. Ethel Ammon, Charles George Barnes, Alfred John Birkett, W. Norman Arnott, John Barr, James Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret Bowen, J. W. Hopkin, Daniel Pole, Major D. G. Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W Horrabin, J. F. Potts, John S. Broad, Francis Alfred Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) Price, M. P. Bromfield, William Isaacs, George Pybus, Percy John Bromley, J. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Ramsay, T. B. Wilson Brooke, W. John, William (Rhondda, West) Rathbone, Eleanor Brothers, M. tones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Raynes, W. R. Brown, C. W. E. (Notts, Mansfield) Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Richards, R. Brown, Ernest (Leith) Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire) Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Riley, Ben (Dewsbury) Burgess, F. G. Jowitt, Sir W. A. (Preston) Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees) Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland) Kennedy, Thomas Ritson, J. Calne, Derwent Hall- Knight, Holford Romeril, H. G. Cameron, A. G. Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George Rosbotham, D. S. T. Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.) Lathan, G. Rothschild, J. de Charleton, H. C. Law, Albert (Bolton) Rowson, Guy Chater, Daniel Law, A. (Rossendale) Salter, Dr. Alfred Church, Major A. G. Lawrence, Susan Sanders, W. S. Cluse, W. S. Lawrie, Hugh Hartley Sawyer, G. F. Compton, Joseph Lawson, John James Sexton, James Cove, William G. Leach, W. Shakespeare, Geoffrey H. Cowan, D. M. Lee, Frank (Derby, N. E.) Sherwood, G. H. Daggar, George Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern) Shield, George William Dalton, Hugh Lees, J. Shiels, Dr. Drummond Davies, E. C. (Montgomery) Lewis, T. (Southampton) Shillaker, J. F. Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Lindley, Fred W. Shinwell, E. Day, Harry Lloyd, C. Ellis Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Denman, Hon. R. D. Logan, David Gilbert Simmons, C. J. Dukes, C. Lonqbottom, A. W. Sinkinson, George Duncan, Charles Longden, F. Sitch, Charles H. Ede, James Chuter Lovat-Fraser, J. A. Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Edmunds, J. E. Lowth, Thomas Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Lunn, William Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Edwards, E. (Morpeth) Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) Smith, Tom (Pontefract) Elmley, Viscount MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham) Smith, W. R. (Norwich) England, Colonel A. MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw) Snell, Harry Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) McElwee, A. Snowden, Thomas (Accrington) Foot, Isaac McEntee, V. L. Sorensen, R. Freeman, Peter McKinlay, A. Stamford, Thomas W. Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) MacLaren, Andrew Strauss, G. R. George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Sullivan, J. Gibbins, Joseph Marcus, M. Sutton, J. E. Gibson, H. M. (Lancs, Mossley) Markham, S. F. Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln) Gill, T. H. Marley, J. Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S. W.) Gillett, George M. Marshall, F. Thurtle, Ernest Glassey, A. E. Mathers, George Tillett, Ben Gossling, A. G. Matters, L. W. Tinker, John Joseph Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Messer, Fred Toole, Joseph Granville, E. Middleton, G. Tout, W. J. Gray, Milner Mills, J. E. Townend, A. E. Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne) Milner, Major J. Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Montague, Frederick Vaughan, D. J. Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.) Morqan, Dr. H. B. Viant, S. P. Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Morley, Ralph Walkden, A. G. Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Morris. Rhys Hopkins Walker, J. Grundy, Thomas W. Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh) Wallace, H. W. Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South) Watkins, F. C. Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.) Watson, W. M. (Dunfermilne) Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) Moses, J. J. H. Wellock, Wilfred Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.) Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent) West, F. R. Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn) Mosley, Sir Oswald (Smethwick) Westwood, Joseph Hardie, George D. Muff, G. White, H. G. Harris, Percy A. Muggeridge, H. T. Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood) Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Naylor, T. E. Wilkinson, Ellen C. Hastings, Dr. Somerville Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Williams, David (Swansea, East) Haycock, A. W. Noel-Buxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N.) Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Hayday, Arthur Oldfield, J. R. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Hayes, John Henry Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston) Wilson, J. (Oldham) Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley) Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) Palin, John Henry Winterton, G. E. (Leicester, Loughb'gh) Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) Paling, Wilfrid Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff) Herriotts, J. Palmer, E. T. Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth) Perry, S. F. TELLERS FOR THE AYES —— Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. William Whiteley. Hoffman, P. C. Phillips, Dr. Marion Hollins, A. Picton-Turbervill, Edith
NOES. Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Atkinson, C. Bellairs, Commander Carlyon Albery, Irving James Balfour, George (Hampstead) Betterton, Sir Henry B. Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l., W.) Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet) Bevan, S. J. (Holborn) Allen, W. E. D. (Belfast, W.) Balniel, Lord Bird, Ernest Roy Astor, Maj. Hon. John J. (Kent, Dover) Beaumont, M. W. Bourne, Captain Robert Croft. Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W. Gunston, Captain D. W. Ramsbotham, H. Boyce, H. L. Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Rawson, Sir Cooper Bracken, B. Hammersley, S. S. Reid, David D. (County Down) Brass, Captain Sir William Hartington, Marquess of Remer, John R. Briscoe, Richard George Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Brockway, A. Fenner Haslam, Henry C. Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd'., Hexham) Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Nawb'y) Heneage, Lieut.-Col Arthur P. Salmon, Major I Brown, W. J. (Wolyerhampton, West) Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Buchanan, G. Herbert, Sir Dennis (Hertford) Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Butler, R. A. Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D. Campbell, E. T. Hurd, Percy A. Savery, S. S. Carver, Major W. H. Iveagh, Countess of Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome Cautley, Sir Henry S. Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.) Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. Smithers, Waldron Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Kindersley, Major G. M. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston) Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Cobb, Sir Cyril Law, Sir Alfred (Derby, High Peak) Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) Stephen, Campbell Colfox, Major William Philip Leighton, Major B. E. P. Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F. Colville, Major D. J. Lewis, Oswald (Colchester) Thomson, Sir F. Cranborne, Viscount Little, Dr. E. Graham Tinne, J. A. Crichton-Stuart, Lord C. Llewellin, Major J. J. Titchfield, Major the Marquess of Crookshank, Capt. H. C. Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey Todd, Capt. A. J. Croom-Johnson, R. P. Lockwood, Captain J. H. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Dalrymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey McGovern, J. (Glasgow, Shettleston) Turton, Robert Hugh Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Makins, Brigadier-General E. Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert Dawson, Sir Philip Margesson, Captain H. D. Warrender, Sir Victor Dixey, A. C. Marjoribanks, Edward Waterhouse, Captain Charles Eden, Captain Anthony Maxton, James Wells, Sydney R. Everard, W. Lindsay Meller, R. J. Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay) Falle, Sir Bertram G. Merriman, Sir F. Boyd Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Ferguson, Sir John Mitchell-Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Fermoy, Lord Moore, Sir Newton J. (Richmond) Withers, Sir John James Fielden, E. B. Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester) Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount Ford, Sir P. J. Nelson, Sir Frank Womersley, W. J. Forgan, Dr. Robert Nicholson, O. (Westminster) Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton Ganzoni, Sir John Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) O'Neill, Sir H. TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —— Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William Sir George Penny and Captain Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Peake, Capt. Osbert Wallace. Gritten, W. G. Howard Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
I beg to move, after the words last inserted, to insert the words:
"Before any such regulations as aforesaid are made by the Board of Education, a draft thereof shall be laid before the Commons House of Parliament, and the regulations shall not be made until a Resolution is passed by that House approving the draft."
This Amendment has been agreed to by the President of the Board of Education.
Amendment agreed to.
"In page 5, line 22, at the end, to insert the words:
4. Regulations made by the Board of Education under the last preceding paragraph shall be laid before Parliament at the same time as the annual Estimates of the Board of Education, and shall not come into operation until the Appropriation Act covering those Estimates has become law."
This point is covered by the Amendment of the hon. Member for Cambridge University (Sir J. Withers) which the Government have just accepted. The object was to raise the point that this House should have an opportunity of discussion. In view of what has happened I do not propose to move it.
I beg to move, in page 5, after the words last inserted to add the words:
"4. The limits prescribed by the Board of Education shall in no case be higher than the following:—
The purpose of this Amendment is to secure the end aimed at by one or two previous Amendments. I will not repeat what has been already said on several occasions but I hope hon. Members will appreciate the point that under this Bill the President of the Board of Education is going to tax the community by regulation, although the regulations must now be approved by the House of Commons. It seems to me essential that there should be some limit to the power of the right hon. Gentleman in issuing these regulations, although there is to be a check by a Resolution on the House of Commons. In this Amendment I propose that the limits of these regulations shall be the limits proposed by the Government themselves in the White Paper, in which they lay down the income limits which entitle a person to maintenance allowance in respect of their children. It is necessary on grounds of economy, and also on constitutional grounds, to lay it down quite clearly that the Board of Education, until it gets further statutory authority from this House, shall not exceed these limits in any regulation it makes for any area.
I hope the Noble Lord will not press the Amendment. It rather cuts across what the Committee has decided already, that the Board of Education shall act by regulation and on advice given by a local authority shall be allowed, if it is proper, to vary the limits. If it has power to vary the limits down ft should have power to vary the limits up. That is what was understood.
The last statement of the President of the Board of Education is the most amazing of the many amazing statements he has made on this Bill. The theory that we should give any Minister under any Measure an unlimited power to vary allowances up as well as down is entirely new, even among the new theories produced by hon. Members opposite. In all seriousness it is impossible for the House of Commons to go on the principle that there should be no top limit to expenditure, or to say that if the Minister has power to vary down he must also have the power to vary up. Our definite contention is that in all expenditure a very definite limit should be prescribed by the House. I regret that my Noble Friend did not see fit to move a much lower scale of income limit in this Amendment. That, however, raises a different point. Underlying the Amendment is the vital principle that in the present financial state of the country we should not give Ministers, however well-intentioned they may be, a blank cheque with which to scatter about the country's money. I am afraid we must disappoint the President of the Board of Education in any hope that the Amendment will not be pressed to a Division. We are prepared and anxious to record our votes in favour of anything that would put a limit to the expenditure under the Bill. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I am delighted that hon. Members opposite applaud that statement, and I shall look forward to seeing them in the Lobby with us. It is the first applause that any advocacy of economy from these benches has received. I trust it is the beginning of a better era.
I do not think that the hon. Member's interruption is as apposite and happy as he may have thought it to be on first consideration. I suggest that he should think it out more carefully, with its full implications. The Amendment embodies a very important principle—the principle that this House must stand up for its rights to limit expenditure.
As my name is associated with the Amendment I wish to speak in support of it. I do not think that the Minister and hon. Gentlemen opposite realise the need for economy at the present time. We cannot stress that need sufficiently, particularly with regard to this Bill. In considering the Bill one has been astounded by the lack of scientific care in its framing. In one's ears there has rung those words of the Minister, that the expenditure will be "thereabouts." "Thereabouts" sums up the whole financial philosophy of the right hon. Gentleman. If there is any greater indictment of this Bill than "thereabouts." I wish hon. Members opposite would assist me in finding it. We are face to face with a commitment of which the Committee has no idea. We have just passed a proposal which certain areas think will be extremely unsound. From another point of view the present proposal would be very much more unsound, because the financial liability which will result will be even more disastrous than many of the provisions already included in the Bill.
There is something utterly unscientific and typical of the legislation so far enacted by the Minister, in his refusal to accede to our request to insert some Amendment prescribing limits. One does not get sufficient opportunities of stressing the need for the House of Commons to take control of the national finances in the way that it ought to do. The right hon. Gentleman, by refusing us this opportunity of knowing the limits implied by the word "thereabouts" is doing the House of Commons a very great disservice, and is doing the cause of economy a very great disservice.
This Amendment emphasises the great difference between hon. Members on this side of the House and those sitting opposite. While we are just as keen as they are on education we are not keen on extravagance, nor are we keen on giving a blank cheque to any Government, least of all to this Government. This Amendment will place some limit on the amount of money which the President of the Board of Education may spend in this way. In talking over this Bill outside one hears everywhere the remark, "While we are keeping up on the educational side, what is it going to cost"? We have asked the President of the Board of Education and the Parliamentary Secretary what the cost will be, and up to the present we have not received any satisfactory reply. They have said that they do not know, and, if they do not know, we have a perfect right to
put down an Amendment which will prevent them exceeding a certain amount. Whatever we may have done the other night, we here, are, certainly, the only party in the House of Commons who are really keen on economy. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] It is only three years ago since I myself called a count on a similar occasion. That was also an economy debate. [HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"] I apologise for having encroached on another subject, but I always believe in accepting a challenge. To return to the Amendment, I believe that it will have some effect in checking the spendthrift ideas of the present Government and I have, therefore, pleasure in supporting it.
I wish to stress one point which was mentioned by the hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. Butler) as to the effect of the previous Amendment adopted by the Committee upon the rate of allowances. The rural districts will tend to have a lower limit, and unless a maximum limit is inserted, as this Amendment proposes, there will be a wide disproportion between the rural and the town areas in this respect—a disproportion which is not reflected in the standards of living in the two kinds of areas. I imagined that the White Paper published by the right hon. Gentleman would have been of some value, because certain limits were prescribed in it. Cannot the right hon. Gentleman back up his opinion by putting limits in the Bill? In an Income Tax Measure it is not stated that the rate will be prescribed by a later Measure, nor should the Government issue an Education Bill with the statement that the maximum limits to expenditure of this kind are to be settled later by the right hon. Gentleman—probably when he has been subjected to the discipline of hon. Members below the Gangway on the opposite side.
Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 137; Noes, 263.
Division No. 77.] AYES. [10.45 p.m. Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Atkinson, C. Bellairs, Commander Carlyon Albery, Irving James Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley) Betterton, Sir Henry B. Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l., W.) Balfour, George (Hampstead) Bevan, S. J. (Holborn) Allen, W. E. D. (Belfast, W.) Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet) Bird, Ernest Roy Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) Bainiel, Lord Boothby, R. J. G Atholl, Duchess of Beaumont, M. W. Bourne, Captain Robert Croft. Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W. Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Ramsbotham, H. Boyce, H. L. Gritten, W. G. Howard Rawson, Sir Cooper Bracken, B. Gunston, Captain D. W. Reid, David O. (County Down) Brass, Captain Sir William Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Remer, John R. Briscoe, Richard George Hammersley, S. S. Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y. Ch'ts'y) Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) Hartington, Marquess of Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Russell, Alexander Welt (Tynemouth) Butler, R. A. Haslam, Henry C. Salmon, Major I. Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Campbell, E. T. Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Carver, Major W. H. Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart Cautley, Sir Henry S. Herbert, Sir Dennis (Hertford) Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D. Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.) Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Savery, S. S. Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Hurd, Percy A. Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston) Iveagh, Countess of Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Cobb, Sir Cyril Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) Smithers, Waldron Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George Kindersley, Major G. M. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Colfox, Major William Philip Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East) Colman, N. C. D. Law, Sir Alfred (Derby, High Peak) Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Colville, Major D. J. Leighton, Major B. E. P. Steel- Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. Lewis, Oswald (Colchester) Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F. Cranbourne, Viscount Little, Dr. E. Graham Thomson, Sir F. Crichton-Stuart, Lord C. Llewellin, Major J. J. Titchfield, Major the Marquess of Crookshank, Capt. H. C. Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey Todd, Capt. A. J. Croom-Johnson, R. P. Lockwood, Captain J. H. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement. Dalrymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) Turton, Robert Hugh Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Makins, Brigadier-General E. Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyan Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Margesson, Captain H. D. Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert Dawson, Sir Philip Marjoribanks, Edward Waterhouse, Captain Charles Dixey, A. C. Meller, R. J. Wells, Sydney R. Duckworth, G. A. V. Merriman, Sir F. Boyd Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay) Eden, Captain Anthony Mitchell-Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Windsor-Clive, Lieut. -Colonel George England, Colonel A. Mond, Hon. Henry Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Falle, Sir Bertram G. Moore, Sir Newton J. (Richmond) Withers, Sir John James Ferguson, Sir John Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester) Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount Fermoy, Lord Nicholson, O. (Westminster) Womersley, W. J. Fielden, E. B. Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton Ford, Sir P. J. O'Neill, Sir H. Ganzonl, Sir John Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —— Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Peake, Captain Osbert Sir George Penny and Captain Wallace. Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
NOES. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Charleton, H. C. Groves, Thomas E. Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Chater, Daniel Grundy, Thomas W. Aitchison, Rt. Hon. Craigie M. Cluse, W. S. Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro') Cocks, Frederick Seymour Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Alpass, J. H. Compton, Joseph Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) Ammon, Charles George Cowan, D. M. Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.) Arnott, John Daggar, George Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn) Aske, Sir Robert Dalton, Hugh Hardie, George D. Attlee, Clement Richard Davies, E. C. (Montgomery) Harris, Percy A. Ayles, Walter Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bllston) Day, Harry Hastings, Dr. Somerville Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley) Denman, Hon. R. D. Haycock, A. W. Barnes, Alfred John Dudgeon, Major C. R. Hayday, Arthur Barr, James Dukes, C. Hayes, John Henry Batey, Joseph Duncan, Charles Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Bellamy, Albert Ede, James Chuter Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) Bennett, William (Battersea, South) Edmunds, J. E. Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) Benson, G. Edwards, E. (Morpeth) Harriotts, J. Bentham, Dr. Ethel Elmley, Viscount Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth) Birkett, W. Norman Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret Foot, Isaac Hoffman, P. C. Bowen, J. W. Forgan, Dr. Robert Hollins, A. Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Freeman, Peter Hopkin, Daniel Broad, Francis Alfred Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) Hore-Belisha, Leslie Brockway, A. Fenner George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) Horrabin, J. F. Bromfield, William George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea) Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) Bromley, J. Gibbins, Joseph Isaacs, George Brooke, W. Gibson, H. M. (Lancs, Mossley) Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Brothers, M. Gill, T. H. John, William (Rhondda, West) Brown, C. W. E. (Notts, Mansfield) Gillett, George M. Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Brown, Ernest (Leith) Glassey, A. E. Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire) Gossling, A. G. Jones, Rt. Hon. Lelf (Camborne) Brown, W. J. (Wolverhampton, West) Gould, F. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Buchanan, G. Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. Burgess, F. G. Granville, E. Jowitt, Sir W. A. (Preston) Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland) Gray, Milner Kelly, W. T. Calne, Derwent Hall- Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne) Kennedy, Thomas Cameron, A. G. Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Knight, Holford Cape, Thomas Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.) Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George Lathan, G. Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent) Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Law, Albert (Bolton) Mosley, Sir Oswald (Smethwick) Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) Law, A. (Rossendale) Muff, G. Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Lawrence, Susan Muggeridge, H. T. Smith, Tom (Pontefract) Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge) Naylor, T. E. Smith, W. R. (Norwich) Lawson, John James Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Snell, Harry Leach, W. Noel Baker, P. J. Snowden, Thomas (Accrington) Lee, Frank (Derby, N. E.) Noel-Buxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N.) Sorensen, R. Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern) Oldfield, J. R. Stamford, Thomas W. Lees, J. Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston) Stephen, Campbell Lewis, T. (Southampton) Palm, John Henry Strauss, G. R. Lindley, Fred W. Paling, Wilfrid Sullivan, J. Lloyd, C. Ellis Palmer, E. T. Sutton, J. E. Logan, David Gilbert Perry, S. F. Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln) Longbottom, A. W. Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S. W.) Longden, F. Phillips, Dr. Marion Thurtle, Ernest Lovat-Fraser, J. A. Picton-Turbervill, Edith Tillett, Ben Lowth, Thomas Pole, Major D. G. Tinker, John Joseph Lunn, William Potts, John S. Toole, Joseph Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) Price, M. P. Tout, W. J. MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham) Purbrick, R. Townend, A. E. MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw) Ramsay, T. B. Wilson Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles McElwee, A. Rathbone, Eleanor Vaughan, D. J. McEntee, V. L. Raynes, W. R. Viant, S. P. McGovern, J. (Glasgow, Shettleston) Richards, R. Walkden, A. G. McKinlay, A. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Walker, J. MacLaren, Andrew Riley, Ben (Dewsbury) Wallace, H. W. Maclean, Sir Donald (Cornwall, N.) Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees) Watkins, F. C. Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Ritson, J. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermilne) Marcus, M. Romeril, H. G. Wellock, Wilfred Markham, S. F. Rosbotham, D. S. T. Welsh, James (Paisley) Marley, J. Rothschild, J. de West, F. R. Marshall, F. Rowson, Guy Westwood, Joseph Mathers, George Salter, Dr. Alfred White, H. G. Matters, L. W. Sanders, W. S. Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood) Maxton, James Sandham, E. Whiteley, William (Blaydon) Messer, Fred Sawyer, G. F. Wilkinson, Ellen C. Middleton, G. Sexton, James Williams, David (Swansea, East) Mills, J. E. Shakespeare, Geoffrey H. Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Milner, Major J. Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Montague, Frederick Sherwood, G. H. Wilson, J. (Oldham) Morgan, Dr. H. B. Shield, George William Wilson R. J. (Jarrow) Morley, Ralph Shiels, Dr. Drummond Winterton, G. E. (Leicester, Loughb'gh) Morris, Rhys Hopkins Shillaker, J. F. Wise, E. F. Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh) Shinwell, E. Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff) Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.) Simmons, C. J. TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —— Mort, D. L. Sinkinson, George Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Charles Edwards. Moses, J. J. H. Sitch, Charles H.
I beg to move, in page 6, to leave out lines 14 to 21, and to insert instead thereof the words:
"Particulars of occupation and earnings.
Name. Occupation. Name and Address of employer. Weekly earnings. * £ s. d. Claimant Claimant's wife (or husband)† **
Particulars of any other income of the claimant or the claimant's wife (or husband) (for example, income from investments, ownership of house, rents from lodgers, pensions (other than war disability pensions), unemployment benefit, assistance from the public assistance committee).
State here any other information which the claimant wishes the authority to consider."
I understand there are to be a certain number of inquiries into the needs of applicants for maintenance allowances, and that the local authorities will submit the form of the inquiries to be made to the Board of Education for their approval. I presume that the actual forms will contain those details which are set out on page 6 of the Bill, and I am suggesting that they should be supplemented by the details in this Amendment. It is no use having a return of the income of parents unless considerable opportunities are afforded for checking those returns. I should have liked to move an Amendment which would have inserted the words:
"The statements in this form will be verified."
because that would have told the parents that their statements would be checked, and it is only right that they should know that. The actual Amendment which I am moving is to enable the authorities to ascertain the necessary details in order to find out whether the applicants are entitled to the allowances.
I am afraid that it will not be possible for me to accept this Amendment on behalf of my right hon. Friend the Minister. I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to some observations by the Minister on a previous occasion in which he pointed out that if the form were not made universal throughout the country, it would be possible for him, having regard to the particular conditions in places like London, say, where the necessity arises for such a check, to approve of forms to suit the requirements of particular localities. He cannot undertake to allow a form of this sort to be applied universally throughout the country. I invite hon. Members opposite to examine this proposal as sympathetically as possible.
The Committee has been invited to include in this form, inquiry into all sorts of details. I do not want to be pro vocative at this hour of the night, but hon. Members must realise that in the hearts of the people of this country there is an indelible resentment against inquiries that they used to associate with the old Poor Law. I assure hon. Members that inquiries of this kind, as to ownership of houses, rents from lodgers, pensions, unemployment benefit, assistance from public assistance committees, recall to the poor the old conditions that used to be associated with application to the Poor Law. The poor very much object to these meticulous inquiries. [HON. MEMBERS: "Nosey Parkers!"] Hon. Members are quite right. Only six months ago in regard to this very same point, when the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer was urging an inquiry into Income Tax and insisting upon certain forms of inquiry, this is what was said to him by hon. Members opposite: the Chancellor of the Exchequer was a "capacious yawn." When we demand justice for the poorer classes we get from the other side a rapacious howl. Will hon. Members not try to put themselves into the position of these poor people—[ Interruption ]—whose one objection is that they really resent these meticulous inquiries by people—[HON. MEMBERS: "What about Income Tax?"] —perhaps I may be allowed to finish my sentence. My point is that hon. Members opposite did object, and in support of their objection there was three-quarters of an hour's discussion in the House on a point of Order concerning it. If they objected in regard to the Income Tax of people who are not taxed on incomes below a certain limit, why should they insist upon an inquiry concerning the incomes of people who do not become entitled to anything at all once their income goes beyond £3 in respect of two children, and graduated figures in other cases? I ask hon. Gentlemen not to apply to other people what they resent being applied to themselves. Whatever merit there may be in their argument, I submit that it is not acceptable to apply a universal form of inquiry like this, though we are prepared, if this form is not imposed upon the House, to grant that it may be possible to approve of a special form. Where these particulars may be partly necessary for the purposes of education authorities, we agree that they might be put into an occasional form in some areas, but we cannot agree that such a form should be applied universally throughout the country.
I feel that we cannot allow the hon. Gentleman to run away as he has tried to do. We can all understand and sympathise with what he said about people with small incomes disliking these meticulous inquiries. Everyone dislikes meticulous inquiries. But we resent the suggestion that those who pay Income Tax do not have to submit to them. The hon. Gentleman has read a quotation with regard to some particular inquiry, but that does not get away from the fact that for years everyone who has to pay Income Tax has had to submit to a most meticulous process of inquisitorial returns, which is accepted as a matter of course. He has said that this feeling against inquiries dates from the days when inquiries were made in a very disagreeable way under the Poor Law; but I would remind him that in those days the better-to-do people of the country did not have to submit to this inquisitorial investigation into their incomes. There was little, if any, Income Tax in those days, and there was nothing like the detailed and exhaustive examination into people's incomes that there is to-day. Therefore, it seems to me that the hon. Gentleman should not shirk saying, to those who are not Income Tax payers, that those who are better off do have to submit to these inquiries, and we should all be ready to do so in the interests of fairness and honesty and justice.
I would also remind the hon. Gentleman that these inquiries are now customary amongst local education authorities. In my part of the country, when I was a member of a local education authority, nobody objected to being asked as to his income and the number of his children, and everyone knew who his employer was. Such inquiries were accepted as a matter of course. It seems to me to be a policy of shirking—I am sorry to use the word—to say that the poor of this country will not submit to this because it reminds them of the bad old days. I would ask the Government to have more courage, and to try to get over their prejudices. [ Interruption. ] What would life be for most of us if we never made an effort to get over the prejudices of some unhappy day that has passed? We all have to do it and to help others to do it.
It seems to me to be a most miserable defeatist policy to sit down and say that, as inquiries were conducted in a very unsympathetic manner formerly, we should not think of making any inquiry into anyone's means to-day, particularly when, as I have said, meticulous inquiries are made into the means of everyone liable to Income Tax. As to investments, they might not be much, but many persons have invested in National Savings or savings in the Post Office Savings Bank, and why should they not be mentioned? Then there are people who take in lodgers in the summer and the income derived from that source is very valuable. Therefore we say that unless it is possible to make an inquiry, what the Government propose is a mockery, and it will not make matters easier to say to the people of London, "We think an inquiry should be effected in your case," but when it comes to another part of the country, to say "We do not think an inquiry is necessary." Any suggestion of injustice between person and person or area and area is always liable to cause resentment, and justly so, and I suggest that allowing employers' names to be given in one area or in some areas, and not in all areas, will show up more and more in what an impossible way the right hon. Gentleman proposes to deal with this matter.
On this occasion certainly the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education has not exercised the arts of conciliation. I cannot imagine an argument against this Amendment more likely to raise a sharp issue between hon. Members opposite and those on these benches than the argument which he has used. He tells us in substance that there is a strong prejudice in the minds of those who are to receive this grant against inquiry into their means. That may be so, but the simple truth is that if there be a prejudice, it is one that ought not to be respected.
The argument has been forcibly taken on a previous occasion of comparison with the Income Taxpayer. I do not think it necessary to rely upon that argument, because it appears to me that the argument in favour of reasonable inquiry in this case is very much stronger than it is in the case of the Income Taxpayer. The latter is making a just contribution—sometimes he thinks it is more than a just contribution—to the expenses of the State, and no doubt he ought to give information, but 10 times more ought the recipient of such a grant as this, which is a new benefit, to give that information. I am sufficiently a believer in the maintenance of close relations between the State and the individual to maintain the duty of the recipient of a grant in this case to give the information, and I think it is an astonishing thing that we should hear from a good Socialist an argument against the fulfilment of such an obligation by the individual to the State, because it is the whole tendency of Socialism to promote the interference by the State in the affairs of the individual and the exercise by the State of control over the affairs of the individual, and I should have thought it would be the Socialist doctrine to exact a reciprocal return by the individual. The obligation is very strong.
I should like to give a relevant piece of personal experience. Immediately after the War it was my great privilege to assist in organising the distribution of ex-service students' grants. Some £7,000,000 of public money was expended after the War in grants to ex-service students to enable them to go back to the universities; admirable work was done and some tens of thousands of students were assisted in that way. In the case of every one of those students the closest and most meticulous inquiry was made, and rightly made, as to what their personal, private means were. From the whole of those many thousands I do not think I ever heard a single word of complaint or anything but an obligation that it was their obvious duty to the State to give the information required.
Part of the words that we should strike out if this Amendment was carried are the words "income from all sources." The Lord Advocate is the only legal representative on the Front Bench.
What about me? I am here, too.
I noticed the hon. Member sitting on the Front Bench a moment or two ago but he has taken his customary place now. I want to ask the Lord Advocate which of these terms included in the Amendment is not also included in the term "income from all sources." We get, first of all, income from investments. That clearly would be income from some source. We get also income from the ownership of a house. I hope I shall have the assistance of hon. Members opposite in assenting to that as well. We then get rent from lodgers. That is included in income from some source. Pensions are quite clearly income from some source. Unemployment benefit is not something that a man pays out but something that he receives in. Then one gets assistance from a public assistance committee. If the Lord Advocate can tell me one single one of those items which would not be included in the legal definition of income from all sources, I should be very much obliged. All we are doing is pointing out to these claimants what they are required to return when they are required to return the income from all sources, and it is only fair that they should be given this information, especially as a penalty hangs upon it if they withhold information that they ought to give. Failing a reply from the Lord Advocate contradicting me, I still believe all these terms in the Amendment are included in "income from all sources."
The Parliamentary Secretary made one of those impassioned harangues against the Amendment which are apt to carry more weight at the street corner than in this House. I want to ask the hon. Gentleman a question the answer to which ought to be the answer to the whole of his long harangue. If he is not prepared to accept the Amendment in the form in which it is proposed, is he prepared to accept it in some such form as this, that the applicant shall be obliged to give all such information as to his income as the Income Tax payer is at present obliged to give? Will the hon. Gentleman say that he will accept that? If he does not accept it the whole of the argument, such as it was, in his harangue will fall to the ground. We do not want these people to give any more information than that which every Income Tax payer is absolutely obliged to give.
I think it is about time we got down to brass tacks. The question under discussion is that an inquiry shall be held into the incomes of the parents of the children. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO!"] I am stating the truth. You are talking about Income Tax payers, but the majority of the people who are to have the opportunity of giving their children another year's education are not Income Tax payers. That fact is recognised. I understood that hon. Members opposite were all out to do the best they could for the people. Is not education a necessity? [ Interruption. ] It is in our case, I admit. As far as we are concerned, this is an attempt to try to establish an inquisition into the means of the working people who apply, or who are entitled to apply, for this extended education of their children. It has always been the same. Throughout the history of educational struggles in this country it has always been a question of the people having to pay. The only people who do not pay are the people who get the most out of it.
Hear, hear!
And the hon. Member is one of them. The money has been wasted. We on these benches do not ask for anybody to go through an examination as to means and pensions, or as to their lodgers. I have been a lodger myself, and know something about it. [An HON. MEMBER: "Read your Bill!"] I have read my Bill; I wish you would read yours. All that we are asking is a grant to help the working man, whose child may be capable of another year's education, to the extent of 5s. a week. All these Amendments are for the purpose of cutting down the amount. Some of the bachelors on the other side of the Committee dare not produce their spending accounts. They dare not present their night club bills. [HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"] I am in order. You are discussing the case of the lodger who pays a few shillings a week for his accommodation, and that of the child who is working and brings in a certain amount of money into the household. You are going to ask the father and mother to give a statement as to the amount of money coming in and the amount of money going out. Why should they? [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?"] Income Tax returns? You never tell the truth. You do not pay Income Tax until you have an income of at least £400 a year. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] If you are a decent married man you do not pay Income Tax on less than £400 a year. You are not asked to make a return of that amount. What you do not like is to be asked where you get your money from.
The hon. Member is going rather too far away from the subject of the Amendment.
I admit that I have gone further away than did some hon. Members opposite, but if they had to give the same information that they are asking for in this Amendment in regard to their incomes, I undertake to say that most of them would find themselves at the Old Bailey. [ Interruption. ]
Order! Withdraw!
I am saying it quite frankly. It is true. I will withdraw nothing. I know what I am talking about.
Mr. Campbell.
The Parliamentary Secretary seemed to forget that this recommendation in the Amendment comes from the report of the Committee, which reported in practically the same terms as the Amendment. I will read what the Committee of Experts said.
On a point of Order. Is it in order for an hon. Member to interrupt and try to make a speech while I am on my feet?
I did not intend the hon. Member to make a speech while the hon. Member for Silver-town (Mr. J. Jones) was on his feet. The hon. Member for Silvertown was sitting down when I called upon the hon. Member for Bromley (Mr. Campbell).
I did not sit down until I was interrupted.
If the hon. Member for Silvertown has not finished his speech he can proceed.
It is very easy for me to finish. I will finish by saying that all the Amendments that have been proposed on this Clause are to try to prevent the children of working-men from getting the same chance that the children of hon. Members opposite have already had.
The Committee of experts reported as follows:
"In connection with this matter of inquiring into the circumstances of family income, we desire to make some general observations. It is sometimes urged that such inquiries are resented and tend to keep some people from applying for assistance although they are in need of it. Our experience is contrary to this view. We have found that such inquiries, often of a detailed nature, are increasingly used before financial assistance is given. This is not the case only in the elementary stages of education, as we find that if financial aid is required in the case of the winner of a State Scholarship to a University, a statutory declaration of income has to be submitted and a similar procedure is adopted in the case of their Scholars and Exhibitioners by the Colleges at Oxford and Cambridge."
That is a point which is always omitted by the present Government.
"Throughout the whole of educational administration the making and verifying of financial inquiries is generally accepted by applicants for assistance who now regard this procedure as not only legitimate but necessary."
We do not wish to make any difference between those who have to pay and those who receive money, but if there is to be a difference it should certainly not be to the detriment of those who are called upon to pay rates and taxes. The Government, I hope, will accept this Amendment in the interests of all concerned.
The Committee have decided to give maintenance allowances to certain people in respect of their poverty. They are not to be given to every parent but to those whose income falls below a certain limit. That means that it is a question of means and if it is a question of means it is only reasonable that we should make adequate provision for the correct ascertainment of means; otherwise, we shall be in the position of having decided that money shall be given to certain persons and then take no precaution to see that persons who are not entitled to get the money do not receive it. A good deal of nonsense has been talked about the resentment of inquiries. My hon. Friend has quoted from the White Paper circulated by the Board of Education and it will be interesting to hear whether the President agrees with the views set out so emphatically in the White Paper. Other bodies well qualified to judge have urged that some such proposal as is contained in the Amendment should be inserted in the Bill. The County Councils Association in their statement say:
"As regards the accuracy of the statements made by claimants for allowances the name of the employer or employers should be given on the claim form so that the authority may have a reasonable opportunity of satisfying themselves as to the genuineness of the claims made upon them."
Surely, no one will claim that this is an unnatural or harsh provision. I should like to put this direct question to the President of the Board: Does he desire that dishonest persons should get what they are not to get? If not, why is he unwilling to insert provisions similar to that in the case of Income Tax, and provisions which the Committee which considered the matter, and whose report is included in the White Paper, and the County Councils Association, have stated are reasonable and necessary?
This is not a question of an inquiry or no inquiry. We have made it perfectly clear by a former Amendment that a local education authority may make what inquiries it pleases for the purpose of verifying any statement. The question at issue is whether in the claim put forward the claimant should make certain statements. We wish the claim to be as simple as possible, and with as few items in it as possible. We have admitted that in some cases it may be desirable, on representations of a local authority, for the claim form to be altered by the Board of Education and items added; but it is most undesirable that the general claim should have a great many items in it. A good deal has been said about adding the employer's name. There are some cases in which it might be desirable that the employer's name should be added. I understand that almost all sections in London, for instance, wish that the employer's name should be added. The reason is obvious. In London, where there is such an enormous number of cases, it is not known who the employer is, and it would be very difficult to find out the name; but in other parts of the country, in the agricultural or mining districts, in nine cases out of ten the employers are known, and there is no reason for including the employer's name. I hope, therefore, that the hon. Member will consent to allow it to remain an optional insertion, and that the name may be put in or not according to the representations made by the local authority.
I understood the Minister to say that an Amendment had been put into the Bill enabling the local authorities to make any inquiry that they think fit. I see that one of the Law Officers is present. Will the right hon. Gentleman tell me whether the applicant is bound to answer those inquiries, if made?
I press the right hon. Gentleman to answer that very simple question, because this is the position in which we are placed: We have a deal again between the Government and the Liberal party, one of the main points being that the local education authority might make inquiries before payment of allowance. It is admitted that most local authorities will need to have the name of the employer. The Minister says that, of course, in a big place like London the name of the employer is not known, but that in other parts of the country everyone knows who is a man's employer. Was there ever such an absurd statement? What is the case in Yorkshire, in the West Riding, or in Manchester? Was ever such an attempt made to fob off the House of Commons? There is no doubt that many local authorities will require to know the name of the employer. They are not to be allowed to have the name on the form; they have to go round and ask for it separately afterwards. That is the sort of thing a trade union would do, I suppose?
Yes, as simple as possible.
They would make the original claim as simple as possible in order that they might have the maximum of inquiries to make afterwards? The hon. Member who interrupted knows that no trade union does its business in that way. Yet trade unionists here leave it to a Labour Government to make an absurd administrative blunder of that kind. There can be only one reason for not putting the employer's name into this form. That reason is that the right hon. Gentleman wants to leave the door open, so that a number of people who are not entitled to the allowance may get it. What other possible reason can there be? What working man in the world objects to giving the name of his employer?
The man who is not employed.
If I am employed, I have to give the name of my employer, in my Income Tax return. [An HON. MEMBER: "Nobody would employ you!"] I think that hon. Members opposite will find, when they are supposed to be supporting a Government which is responsible for the business of the House of Commons, that they will not get through the nation's business any the quicker by losing their manners. That is one of the elementary lessons which has to be learned by any Government party. If a Government party insists on behaving as if it were in opposition, it will fail to get its business through—[ Interruption. ] Members on this side of the Committee are trying to maintain the courtesies of debate—even after eleven o'clock. I pass from the question of the employer's name to the argument of the Parliamentary Secretary. He said, "Why should you ask for all these particulars of the income of the claimant?" He even took in the hon. Member for Silvertown (Mr. J. Jones), who thinks—and is going back to Silvertown to say so—that all his people are going to get maintenance allowances under this Bill, without any inquiry as to their means.
I never said anything of the kind. I leave that to the Noble Lord's party. They came down to my constituency and told the people that they would get all these things from the Tory party.
The hon. Member is still under the impression that his people fire going to get all these things.
They are going to get all that I can get for them—I can tell you that.
The Parliamentary Secretary knows that under the Bill these applicants have to return their income from all sources. There is not a single source of income mentioned in this Amendment, which those people will not have to return, and give particulars of, if the local authority asks them to do so. Yet, he prefers, in order to have a simple form, and in order to have a misleading claim to conceal that fact and he tries to lead the Committee to believe that this Amendment introduces more requirements as to returns than his own Bill. He knows that he is asking every person who receives a maintenance allowance under the Bill to return the annual value of his house, the annual rental value of his allotment, and his income from all sources. But he is not going to tell them so. Oh, no, he is going to conceal that fact. After all, slyness is not a particularly good way in which to introduce and pass legislation.
I do not think that the attitude of my hon. Friends on this side will be altered by the speech of the Minister, the effect of which was that we should rely on the local authorities. I cannot see any great security in relying on uniform action and a uniform outlook on the part of local authorities throughout the country. The Parliamentary Secretary did not give any reason why a statement of the name and address of the employer should not be an obligation imposed on recipients of allowances and embodied in the Bill. He tried to draw a red herring across the trail by talking about inquiries into all sorts of details. He said that in the hearts of the poor there was an indelible resentment against meticulous inquiries—I believe that those were his words. Equally in the heart of the taxpayers there is indelible resentment at some of the inquiries that are made; they are meticulous in the extreme. It is a principle of income tax that you have to return your income from all sources, and it is the obligation of a company to send to the local commissioner of taxes a full return of all those employed on his staff. If all that is required of those who give to the State, surely such a safeguard for fair dealing is not too much to ask from somebody who is receiving money from the State. It is not a petty matter, but a matter of principle that this name and address should be inserted. The new Socialist doctrine which we have heard to-night seems to be, "Blessings to those who receive, and kicks for those who give." That is not going to help to restore confidence in the country in its present state, confidence which has been sadly shattered by the reckless finance and the placating of democracy which has been going on since this Government came into Office.
May I say a word against this Amendment on behalf of the employers? Hon. Gentlemen opposite have been so anxious to get at the working classes in this business, that they have not seen the other side of the picture. Imagine the position of the employer whose employé sends in a return: "James Smith, Gardener, employed by Lord So-and-So, wages 25s. a week." I should say that he would not want that fact known—
Does not the hon. Member know that the employer already sends that in on his Income Tax return?
If the noble Lord had not interrupted me, I should have come to that. It is one thing to send the return to the Inland Revenue Officer, who is sworn to secrecy, and another thing to send it to a local authority, on which the employer's neighbours sit. I can imagine the comments that would be made by the Noble Lord's associates if they discovered that he paid his gardener 25s. a week. I do not want to press this matter unduly; I only want to point out that in their anxiety to get at the working classes, hon. Gentlemen opposite should have some consideration for the tender feelings of the members of their own class.
I want to ask the President if it is a fact that these returns are not to be received by local authorities with all secrecy? If, as the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) suggests, these facts are liable to be divulged, the Bill should be altered. I wish to draw attention to the provision that if anybody makes a false declaration, he is liable to three months' imprisonment or a fine of £25. I hope the President of the Board of Education will take that whole paragraph out. I am moving later on an Amendment to that effect. If the right hon. Gentleman has some penal offence in mind, he ought to tell us what this ambiguous phrase "income from all sources" means. A great deal of time and money has been wasted in the Courts in trying to find out what "income from all sources" is, and here we find the same objectionable phrase in this Bill. Does the right hon. Gentleman merely mean the income from the weekly earnings of the applicant? If he only considers the matter, he will see that the phrase means a great deal more, and my hon. and learned Friend who moved the amendment stated the full effect of the words. The Lord Advocate was challenged earlier in the evening to say whether they did not include every one of the definitions of income laid down. The hon. and learned Gentleman finds difficulty at this late stage of the sitting in either agreeing or disagreeing. It is quite incontestable that everyone of these definitions is included in "income from all sources". It is merely telling the applicant the way in which he can be got at by the President of the Board of Education. We are here explaining the law and not the intentions of the right hon. Gentleman. We get speeches from the Parliamentary Secretary and the hon. Member for Silvertown (Mr. J. Jones) trying to make out that they are defending the employers. What they are doing is to
put the poor workman in the position that he writes down his weekly income and then finds himself involved in police court proceedings under a penal Clause, with three months' imprisonment or a fine of £25.
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Schedule."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 239; Noes, 123.
Division No. 78.] AYES. [11.55 p.m. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Gossling, A. G. McKinlay, A. Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Gould, F. Maclean, Sir Donald (Cornwall, N.) Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Gray, Milner Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Aitchison, Rt. Hon. Craigie M. Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Coine) Mander, Geoffrey le M. Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro') Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Mansfield, W. Alpass, J. H. Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.) Marcus, M. Ammon, Charles George Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Markham, S. F. Arnott, John Groves, Thomas E. Marley, J. Aske, Sir Robert Grundy, Thomas W. Marshall, Fred Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley) Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Mathers, George Barnes, Alfred John Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Matters, L. W. Barr, James Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) Maxton, James Batey, Joseph Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.) Messer, Fred Bellamy, Albert Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn) Mills, J. E. Bennett, William (Battersea, South) Hastings, Dr. Somerville Milner, Major J. Benson, G. Haycock, A. W. Montague, Frederick Bentham, Dr. Ethel Hayday, Arthur Morgan, Dr. H. B. Birkett, W. Norman Hayes, John Henry Morley, Ralph Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South) Bowen, J. W. Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.) Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) Mort, D. L. Brockway, A. Fenner Herriotts, J. Moses, J. J. H. Bromfield, William Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth) Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent) Bromley, J. Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Muff, G. Brooke, W. Hoffman, P. C. Muggeridge, H. T. Brothers, M. Hollins, A. Naylor, T. E. Brown, C. W. E. (Notts. Mansfield) Hopkin, Daniel Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Brown, Ernest (Leith) Hore-Belisha, Leslie Noel Baker, P. J. Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire) Horrabin, J. F. Noel-Buxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N.) Brown, w. J. (Wolverhampton, West) Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) Oldfield, J. R. Buchanan, G. Isaacs, George Oliver, George Harold (Likeston) Burgess, F. G. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley) Burgin, Dr. E. L. John, William (Rhondda, West) Palin, John Henry. Calne, Derwent Hall- Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Palmer, E. T. Cameron, A. G. Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Cape, Thomas Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne) Perry, S. F. Carter, W, (St. Pancras, S.W.) Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Charleton, H. C. Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. Phillips, Dr. Marion Chater, Daniel Jowitt, Sir W. A. (Preston) Picton-Turbervill, Edith Cluse, W. S. Kelly, W. T. Potts, John S. Cocks, Frederick Seymour Kennedy, Thomas Price, M. P. Compton, Joseph Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George Pybus, Percy John Daggar, George Lathan, G. Ramsay, T. B. Wilson Dalton, Hugh Law, Albert (Bolton) Pathbone, Eleanor Davies, E. C. (Montgomery) Law, A. (Rossendale) Raynes, W. R. Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Lawrence, Susan Richards, R. Denman, Hon. R. D. Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Dudgeon, Major C. R. Lawson, John James Riley, Ben (Dewsbury) Dukes, C. Leach, W. Ritson, J. Duncan, Charles Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.) Romeril, H. G. Ede, James Chuter Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern) Rosbotham, D. S. T. Edmunds, J. E. Lees, J. Rowson, Guy Edwards, E. (Morpeth) Lewis, T. (Southampton) Sanders, W. S. Eimley, Viscount Lindley, Fred W. Sandham, E. Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univ.) Lloyd, C. Ellis Sawyer, G. F. Foot, Isaac Logan, David Gilbert Sexton, James Freeman, Peter Longbottom, A. W. Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) Longden, F. Sherwood, G. H. George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) Lunn, William Shield, George William George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea) Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) Shillaker, J. F. Gibbins, Joseph Mac Donald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham) Simmons, C. J. Gibson, H. M. (Lancs, Mossley) MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw) Sinkinson, George Gill, T. H. McElwee, A. Sitch, Charles H. Gillett, George M. McEntee, V. L. Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Glassey, A. E. McGovern, J. (Glasgow, Shettleston) Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Toole, Joseph Whiteley, William (Blaydon) Smith, Tom (Pontefract) Tout, W. J. Wilkinson, Ellen C. Smith, W. R. (Norwich) Townend, A. E. Williams, David (Swansea, East) Snowden, Thomas (Accrington) Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Sorensen, R. Vaughan, D. J. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Stamford, Thomas W. Viant, S. P. Wilson, J. (Oldham) Stephen, Campbell Walker, J. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Strauss, G. R. Wallace, H. W. Winterton, G. E.(Leicester, Loughb'gh) Sullivan, J. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermilne) Wise, E. F. Sutton, J. E. Wellock, Wilfred Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff) Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln) Welsh, James (Paisley) Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.) Westwood, Joseph TELLERS FOR THE AYES .—.— Thurtle, Ernest White, H. G. Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Paling. Tinker, John Joseph Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)
NOES. Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Dalrymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey Muirhead, A. J. Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Nicholson, O. (Westminster) Albery, Irving James Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Penny, Sir George Allen, W. E. D. (Belfast, W.) Dawson, Sir Philip Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Dixey, A. C. Pownall, Sir Assheton Astor, Maj. Hn. John J.(Kent, Dover) Falle, Sir Bertram G. Ramsbotham, H. Atholl, Duchess of Ferguson, Sir John Remer, John R. Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley) Fermoy, Lord Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'te'y) Balfour, George (Hampstead) Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet) Ganzoni, Sir John Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Balniel, Lord Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Salmon, Major I. Beaumont, M. W. Gritten, W. G. Howard Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farrham) Bellairs, Commander Carlyon Gunston, Captain D. W. Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Betterton, Sir Henry B. Hammersley, S. S. Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart Bevan, S. J. (Holborn) Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Savery, S. S. Bird, Ernest Roy Hartington, Marquess of Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome Boothby, R. J. G. Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Smithers, Waldron Bourne, Captain Robert Croft. Haslam, Henry C. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W. Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East) Boyce, Leslie Heneage, Lieut.-Col Arthur P. Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Bracken, B. Herbert, Sir Dennis (Hertford) Stanley, Lord (Fylde) Brass, Captain Sir William Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur Briscoe, Richard George Hurd, Percy A. Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton) Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) Iveagh, Countess of Thomson, Sir F. Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y) Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) Titchfield, Major the Marquess of Bullock, Captain Malcolm Kindersley, Major G. M. Todd, Capt. A. J. Butler, R. A. Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Campbell, E. T. Leighton, Major B. E. P. Turton, Robert Hugh Carver, Major W. H. Lewis, Oswald (Colchester) Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.) Llewellin, Major J. J. Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey) Clydesdale, Marquess of Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert Cobb, Sir Cyril Lockwood, Captain J. H. Waterhouse, Captain Charles Colfox, Major William Philip Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Wells, Sydney R. Colman, N. C. D. Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Colville, Major D. J. Makins, Brigadier-General E. Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. Margesson, Captain H. D. Withers, Sir John James Cranborne, Viscount Marjoribanks, Edward Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount Crichton-Stuart, Lord C. Meller, R. J. Womersley, W. J. Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Merriman, Sir F. Boyd Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton Crookshank, Capt. H. C. Mitchell-Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Croom-Johnson, R. P. Mond, Hon. Henry TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —— Dalkeith, Earl of Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester) Major Sir George Hennessy and Sir Victor Warrender.
I beg to move, in page 7, line 1, to leave out from the word "that" to the word "my," in line 4, and to insert instead thereof the words:
In page 7, line 27, at the end, to add the words:
I accept this Amendment.
It seems to me that, in order to make the Amendment read, it will be necessary to leave out, not from the word "that," in line 1, but from the word "if," in line 1, to the word "my," in line 4. This is, of course, a very small point, but it is necessary in order that the Amendment may make sense.
At an earlier stage, the right hon. Gentleman promised to consider inserting on Report certain words incorporating three Amendments which I moved. If he does insert such words, he will find that this Amendment is unnecessary, because the point of my Amendments was to make it unnecessary for any man or woman to whom an allowance has once been allotted to make a fresh statement if their income increased. I should like to hear from the right hon. Gentleman whether he will reconsider these words when he considers that point before the Report stage.
indicated assent.
I should like to reinforce what has been said by my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton). Surely, the words left out should be, as he suggests, from "if," in line 1, to "my," in line 4.
I think that the noble Lord and my hon. Friend are right, and I am prepared to move the Amendment in that form.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendments made: In page 7, leave out from the word "if," in line 1, to the word "my," in line 4, and insert instead thereof the words:
"while I am in receipt of the allowance hereby claimed my income from any source [‡or that of my wife (or husband) living with me] increases at any time so that the prescribed limit § applicable in any case is exceeded, it will be."
In line 27, at the end, add the words:
"§ The local education authority shall supply free of charge to every claimant whose claim is allowed a copy of the prescribed limits."—[ Major Llewellin. ]
Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
TITLE.—( A Bill to raise to fifteen years the age up to which parents are required to cause their children to receive efficient elementary instruction and to attend school, and to make provision for maintenance allowances in respect of children attending school up to that age who are over the age of fourteen years .)
I beg to move, at the end, to add the words "and to amend the Education Act, 1921."
I move this Amendment in order to give the right hon. Gentleman an opportunity of dealing with a matter which he declared, earlier in the Committee stage, to be more or less essential to this Bill. He explained that it had not been included because he thought the matter might have been dealt with by a Home Office Bill, and that is not the case. It seems to be the general view of Members of the House on his side as well as on this side that the question of hours of employment of young persons up to the age of 15 should be—
Perhaps the hon. Member will explain why it is necessary to amend the Title. The Title can only be amended if the Bill has been so altered as to necessitate an Amendment of the Title.
I fancy that is rather a point of procedure which has not often been resorted to of late, but the other evening a certain Amendment was ruled out of order because it was outside the Title and scope of the Bill. At the same time the right hon. Gentleman had declared that he thought an Amendment of that kind was necessary. An Amendment of that kind can be moved at a later stage or by a re-committal, as may be necessary, of a portion of this Bill, if the Title is altered so as to bring such an Amendment within the Title and scope of the Bill. It is for that reason that I suggest that under the circumstances it is admissible to move that the Title of the Bill should be amended, in order that certain Amendments which have been ruled out of order may be considered at a later stage.
I am not now responsible for Amendments ruled out of order, and I can only accept an Amendment to alter the Title of the Bill if the hon. Member will point out in what way the Bill has been altered in Committee so as to necessitate the alteration of the Title.
On a point of Order. Am I to understand that the Chair is bound to rule out of order during the Committee stage any Amendment which is outside the Title of the Bill, and that the Chair is also bound to rule out of order any Amendment to the Title at the end of the Committee stage on the ground that the previous Amendments have been ruled out of order; and, if so, what is the remedy which this House has to put a Bill into order which has been erroneously drafted?
I do not accept the interpretation of the Noble Lord. It is not my province now to deal with Amendments ruled out of order. I can only accept an Amendment to alter the Title of the Bill providing it can be shown that Amendments have been made in Committee which would necessitate that alteration of the Title.
May I assure you, Mr. Dunnico, that this is a matter which both sides wish to have dealt with? My point is this: An attempt was made to move a certain Amendment, but it was ruled out of order, though not by you—I think no doubt you would have done so had you been in the Chair—on the ground that it was outside the Title of the Bill. The point that I put to you, if I may respectfully say so, is that it is the duty of the Chair to interpret and work out rules of procedure for the convenience of the Committee and to enable business to be done in an orderly and proper manner. If it be the case that an Amendment which is outside the Title of the Bill cannot be moved during the Committee stage, then it stands to reason that that Amendment cannot be made at all unless and until the Title is altered.
I must correct the hon. Member. An Amendment is not ruled out of order because it is outside the Title of the Bill but because it is outside the scope of the Bill, an entirely different matter. It is because amendments outside the Title of the Bill can be moved that it is necessary when such amendments are carried to amend the Title. Unless the hon. Member can prove to me that any Amendment has been passed which necessitates an alteration of the Title, I must refuse to accept his Amendment. May I add that the hon. Member knows how difficult and intricate these points of order are, and I think it would have been rather more courteous to have notified the Chair that he was going to raise this point.
I am sure you will accept my ample apologies, Sir, for any want of courtesy, which I can assure you was absolutely unintentional. I was under the impression, perhaps wrongly, that it was a perfectly ordinary natural procedure, of which no notice was required, to ask that the Title might be called from the Chair, in the same way as a Clause is called, in order to enable a Member to move an Amendment to the Title. I fully admit, and I have only too good reason to know, the difficulty of interpreting these Standing Orders. If you rule against me, I can only accept your ruling and explain any apparent discourtesy by the explanation I have given, but I thought I was only doing something which was recognised procedure. I would only ask further whether you can assist the Committee by saying by what means, a certain Amendment having been in fact ruled out of Order because it was outside the Title, the Title can now be altered in order to enable such an Amendment to be made, either on the recommittal of the Bill or on the Report stage.
In the first place, it is not in accordance with procedure or custom that the Title of a Bill is put. The second answer is that no Amendment is ruled out of order because it is outside the Title of the Bill. It is ruled out of order because it is outside the scope of the Bill. Therefore, in this instance, unless the hon. Gentleman can assure me that an Amendment has been accepted in Committee which involves a change in the Title, I cannot accept an Amendment to the Title.
The Amendment in question may be consistent with the Title of the Bill as it stands but inconsistent with the Title of the principal Bill which, under Sub-section (2), is to be construed as one with this Act. I want to ask, therefore, whether the question of the applicability of the Amendment applies at all.
The only Ruling I have to give now is that, as far as I know, nothing has been added to the Bill which necessitates an Amendment to alter the Title. Therefore, I cannot accept an Amendment to alter it, unless the hon. Member can show reasons why I should.
I wish to make amends for the way in which I have troubled you, Sir, by saying that I agree completely with what you have explained as to the difference between the Title and the scope of a Bill. I should like to ask, in the circumstances, whether you can suggest any procedure by which the scope of the Bill can be enlarged.
I am afraid that it is outside my competence as Chairman of the Committee to advise the hon. Member as to the procedure he may desire to adopt when the Bill has passed the Committee stage.
I only rise in order to point out that the Amendment to which the hon. Member has called attention was ruled out, not on the ground of being outside the scope of the Bill but of being outside the Title. That was my recollection. If that is so, the Standing Order does make provision for amendments to the Title.
Motion made and Question proposed:
"That the Chairman do report the Bill, with Amendments, to the House."
I cannot help making the remark that the discussion we have just had on the point of order is characteristic of this Bill and of the Government's handling of it. The whole question of juvenile employment was left outside the scope of the Bill per incuria, and, when the Government sought to accept an Amendment in regard to it, they found that they could not do so. That is characteristic of the way in which the Bill has been drafted and handled. I do not think that it would be fair to the House if the Committee parted with this Bill without expressing the opinion that it is the worst and most sloppily-drafted Bill that has ever been introduced. It is so far the very simple reason that there are so many things in the Bill which its authors have wanted to do without appearing to wish to do; so many things done by inference, by implication, and, as it were, underhand. The most extraordinary instance is to be found in the second part of the Schedule.
On a point of Order. Is it in order to discuss the Bill after it has been proposed from the Chair that the Bill be reported to the House? And, further, is it in order for the right hon. Member to insult the Government by using the Latin tag, per incuria, and saying that it is through carelessness that the Government have introduced this Bill?
The Question before the Committee is: "That the Bill, as amended, be reported to the House," and it is open to any hon. Member to make observations upon the Question. With regard to the Latin expression, I have no doubt that the right hon. Gentleman will congratulate the hon. Member upon his understanding of it.
I thank the hon. Member for his interpretation. He is a Daniel come to judgment. "Through carelessness" is an exact and accurate description.
Why did not you say that before; why did you use a Latin tag?
I was saying that the most extraordinary instance of this sloppy, careless drafting is to be found in the second part of the Second Schedule, where a number of offences are created, not by direct enactment, but in the wording of the form of claim which an applicant for maintenance allowance has to send in. The only way in which the offences are created is in a kind of—I am sorry to talk Latin again— Oratio obliqua, so that the claimant—
Is it not true that the pronunciation is outrageous?
I learned my Latin in the days when we still were not ashamed of English pronunciation. They are offences which have been created simply by putting declarations into the mouths of future applicants for State grants. A more unbusinesslike way of exacting penal offences could not be conceived. That is all of a piece with the whole tenour of the Bill. It is a Bill of which the Government and this Committee ought to be thoroughly ashamed.
Question put, "That the Chairman do report the Bill, with Amendments, to the House."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 193; Noes, 90.
Division No. 79.] AYES. [12.29 a.m. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Hayday, Arthur Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Hayes, John Henry Perry, S. F. Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Aitchison, Rt. Hon. Craigie M. Herriotts, J. Phillips, Dr. Marion Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro') Hirst, G. H. (York W. B. Wentworth) Picton-Tubervill, Edith Alpass, J. H. Hoffman, P. C. Potts, John S. Ammon, Charles George Hollins, A Price, M. P. Arnott, John Hopkin, Daniel Pybus, Percy John Aske, Sir Robert Hore-Belisha, Leslie Ramsay, T. B. Wilson Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley) Horrabin, J. F. Rathbone, Eleanor Barr, James Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) Raynes, W. R. Batey, Joseph Isaacs, George Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Bellamy, Albert Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Ritson, J. Bennett, William (Battersea, South) John, William (Rhondda, West) Romeril, H. G. Benson, G. Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Rosbotham, D. S. T. Bentham, Dr. Ethel Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Rowson, Guy Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Sanders, W. S. Bowen, J. W. Jowitt, Sir W. A. (Preston) Sandham, E. Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Kelly, W. T. Sawyer, G. F. Brockway, A. Fenner Kennedy, Thomas Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Brooke, W. Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George Sherwood, G. H. Brown, C. W. E. (Notts. Mansfield) Lathan, G. Shield, George William Brown, Ernest (Leith) Lawrence, Susan Shillaker, J. F. Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire) Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge) Simmons, C. J. Brown, W. J. (Wolverhampton, West) Lawson, John James Sinkinson, George Buchanan, G. Leach, W. Sitch, Charles H. Burgess, F. G. Lee, Frank (Derby, N. E.) Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Burgin, Dr. E. L. Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern) Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) Caine, Derwent Hall Lees, J. Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.) Lewis, T. (Southampton) Smith, Tom (Pontefract) Charleton, H. C. Lindley, Fred W. Smith, W. R. (Norwich) Cocks, Frederick Seymour Lloyd, C. Ellis Snowden, Thomas (Accrington) Compton, Joseph Logan, David Gilbert Stephen, Campbell Daggar, George Longden, F. Strauss, G. R. Dalton, Hugh Lunn, William Sullivan, J. Davies, E. C. (Montgomery) Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) Taylor R. A. (Lincoln) Denman, Hon. R. D. MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham) Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S. W.) Dudgeon, Major C. R. MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw) Thurtle, Ernest Dukes, C. McElwee, A. Tinker, John Joseph Duncan, Charles McEntee, V. L. Toole, Joseph Ede, James Chuter McGovern, J. (Glasgow, Shettleston) Tout, W. J. Edmunds, J. E. McKinlay, A. Townend, A. E. Edwards, E. (Morpeth) Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Elmley, Viscount Mander, Geoffrey le M. Vaughan, D. J. Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) Mansfield, W. Walker, J. Foot, Isaac Marcus, M. Wallace, H. W. Freeman, Peter Marley, J. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermilne) George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea) Marshall, F. Wellock, Wilfred Gibbins, Joseph Mathers, George Welsh, James (Paisley) Gibson, H. M. (Lancs, Mossley) Matters, L. W. Westwood, Joseph Gill, T. H. Maxton, James White, H. G. Gillett, Georqe M. Messer, Fred Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood) Glassey, A. E. Milner, Major J. Whiteley, William (Blaydon) Gossling, A. G. Morgan, Dr. H. B. Wilkinson, Ellen C. Gould, F. Morley, Ralph Williams, David (Swansea, East) Gray, Milner Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South) Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne) Mort, D. L. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Moses, J. J. H. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Groves, Thomas E. Muff, G. Winterton, G. E. (Leicester, Loughb'gh) Grundy, Thomas W. Muggeridge, H. T. Wise, E. F. Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff) Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Noel Baker, P. J. Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) Noel-Buxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N.) TELLERS FOR THE AYES .—.— Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.) Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston) Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Paling. Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn) Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley) Haycock, A. W. Palin, John Henry
NOES. Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Briscoe, Richard George Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) Crookshank, Capt. H. C. Albery, Irving James Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Croom-Johnson, R. P. Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Bullock, Captain Malcolm Dalkeith, Earl of Astor, Maj. Hon. John J. (Kent, Dover) Butler, R. A. Dalrymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey Atholl, Duchess of Campbell, E. T. Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley) Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.) Dawson, Sir Philip Balfour, George (Hampstead) Clydesdale, Marquess of Ferguson, Sir John Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet) Colfox, Major William Philip Fermoy, Lord Balniel, Lord Colman, N. C. D. Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Beaumont, M. W. Colville, Major D. J. Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Betterton, Sir Henry B. Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. Gritten, W. G. Howard Boyce, Leslie Cranborne, Viscount Gunston, Captain D. W. Bracken, B. Crichton-Stuart, Lord C. Hammersley, S. S. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Margesson, Captain H. D. Smithers, Waldron Hartington, Marquess of Marjoribanks, Edward Stanley, Lord (Fylde) Haslam, Henry C. Merriman, Sir F. Boyd Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton) Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Mond, Hon. Henry Titchfield, Major the Marquess of Heneage, Lieut.-Col Arthur P. Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester) Todd, Capt. A. J. Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. Muirhead, A. J. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Herbert, Sir Dennis (Hertford) Penny, Sir George Vaugaan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey) Iveagh, Countess of Ramsbotham, H. Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) Remer, John R. Warrender, Sir Victor Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Waterhouse, Captain Charles Leighton, Major B. E. P. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Wells, Sydney R. Llewellin, Major J. J. Salmon, Major I. Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Womersley, W. J. Lockwood, Captain J. H. Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Makins, Brigadier-General E. Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome Sir Frederick Thomson and Captain Sir George Bowyer.
Bill reported; as amended, to be considered upon Wednesday, and to be printed.—[Bill 171.]
Consolidated Fund (No. 1) Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a Second time".
I desire to elicit from the Minister some information about the second Clause, Subsection (3) of which states:
"Any money borrowed otherwise than on Treasury Bills shall be repaid, with interest not exceeding five pounds per centum per annum."
It seems to me that, when a definite rate of interest is inserted in a Bill, it must be for some specific purpose. It cannot be that the rate of interest inserted is always exactly five per cent., because, obviously, there have been some times when the money could not be borrowed at five per cent. At the present moment short-dated money is much cheaper than five per cent. It seems to me that this provision is inserted as a safeguard, and as a deliberate provision that not more than five per cent. should be paid. In. that case, I think that five per cent. as the rate inserted is too high a rate and I should be glad if the Financial Secretary to the Treasury could give me some information on the point.
The Bill is in the usual form of Bills of this character and, so far as borrowing is concerned, it does not differ from what is usually the case. I do not think any further explanation is necessary.
May I ask the hon. Gentleman if it is in the usual form? My hon. Friend has pointed out that the rate of interest in the City is greatly below this figure. Are we to understand that the usual form has no relation to the actual facts of the case, or to safeguarding the finances of the country in this House?
It seems clearly an insult to this House that the Financial Secretary to the Treasury should come in here without having a copy of the Bill in his possession. He knows nothing about it, and has even to go to the Minister of Labour to help him out of his difficulties in regard to the Bill. Really, to come here and ask for powers to spend £10,500,000 in this light-hearted way, when the country is suffering, as it is to-day, from a heavy burden of taxation, with unemployment being increased because of the heavy burden of taxation—and the Financial Secretary to the Treasury is merely laughing—is too disgraceful for words. When every other country in the world with whom we have got to compete is not only reducing its Budget expenditure, but is working harder and for longer hours, this is the kind of treatment we get! I want to reinforce the protest that has been made by my hon. Friend and also to protest against this treatment of the House of Commons which is typical of the party opposite.
Surely, the answer to the question of the hon. Member for Gravesend (Mr. Albery) is to be found in Subsection (3). [ Interruption. ] I am a Member of this House, and I am entitled to speak. In that Subsection there are words "with interest not exceeding five per cent." That is the answer to the hon. Member's question.
We are grateful to the hon. Member for Leith (Mr. E. Brown) for coming in to help the Financial Secretary, but when he says that this is common form, how long has it been common form? He must remember that 5 per cent. has not been put in these Consolidated Fund Bills for a great length of time. There was a time when it was 3½ per cent. and 4 per cent. To-day, owing to the fall in the value of money, Treasury bills can be floated for something like £2 2s. 6d. per cent. A few years ago it was nearer 5 per cent than 2 per cent, and there was then some reason for putting in 5 per cent, because it did not represent a great difference between possibility and reality. But why should that still continue if the Bill is to be in common form?
I agree with the Financial Secretary that this Bill is in common form, but it is a common form that is adapted for a particular purpose. It is not common form that the amount dealt with shall be £10,500,000. That varies in every Consolidated Fund Bill. There are other figures which are not common form. They are the material inserted by the Financial Secretary into his common form. The question that has been asked is in regard to the insertion of the words "five pounds per centum per annum." That is not common form, and we want to know why 5 per cent. has been inserted, when the rate at the present time could be put at something very much lower. [ Interruption. ] This is not altogether a matter for laughter. It is generally supposed that dealings in Treasury bills and, in fact the part which the Government take in dealings in the money market in the City of London, are of some importance, and we want to know whether the Financial Secretary, his advisers and the Treasury are of opinion that before this date arises, namely, 31st March, the Government may find it necessary to have to pay as much as 5 per cent. If they really think there is any fear of that, it would be a very serious matter, indeed. If they do not think there is any fear of that, then I do not think they ought unnecessary to alarm the people of this country. Is the Financial Secretary prepared, on going into Committee on this Bill, to accept an Amendment to substitute 4½ per cent. for 5 per cent.?
The hon. Member for Gravesend (Mr. Albery) has raised a point of extraordinary importance. [ Interruption. ] Hon. members opposite may laugh and jeer at the expenditure of the country, but the Financial Secretary to the Treasury has been asked to explain a point of very great importance, and I think it is due to the House that he should explain whether this 5 per cent. is in anticipation of the ruin which the Budget of the Chancellor of the Exchequer may produce in the country next year? It is of vital importance to the country to know what is the basis of this calculation, and it is disgraceful treatment of this House for the Financial Secretary not to give any explanation, and it is typical of the Socialist party that they should cheer him on. [ Interruption. ] I am quite content to speak until we get an answer, if there is to be an answer. [ Interruption. ] I apologise for the time of the House being wasted by hon. Gentlemen opposite, but I do hope that the Financial Secretary will explain this most important point. This is a matter which involves the whole credit of the country, and we are entitled to an answer. The Financial Secretary gave us a lecture the other day on economy, and he resisted attempts made on this side of the House to waste large sums of money on pensions that were not justified. Surely, he will now live up to his reputation and say whether any change of policy is indicated by this figure?
Hon. Members opposite really have not quite understood the position. This money is wanted in the next few weeks, and the Government are never really certain that their period of office is not limited to a very few weeks. We have to calculate on what might happen if the right hon. Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) returned to the Chancellorship of the Exchequer. It is merely to show that 5 per cent. is not too high a rate in that contingency.
After what the last speaker has said, may I say that, anyhow, the right hon. Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill), if he were Chancellor of the Exchequer, would be in his place when a Consolidated Fund Bill came before the House. I wish to ask one question of the Financial Secretary. The hon. Gentleman said that this Bill was in common form. Is this the form of the last Consolidated Fund Bill, and was this in the Bill before that? I do not believe he will find 5 per cent. in either of these two Bills. It is perfectly obvious that the Financial Secretary does not understand his own Bill. Everybody who has studied the situation knows that the country is viewing with anxiety the continual spending of enormous sums of money. We have this Bill, which is normally given a whole day for discussion, and the Financial Secretary gets up and says he knows nothing about it although it deals with something over £10,000,000. It shows the depths of degradation—[ Interruption. ]
I can speak only by leave of the House. Hon. Members opposite have taken advantage of this Bill to put forward a number of suggestions. The answer I gave was not given from any ignorance of the Bill. It was a proper answer. This Bill I said was in common form. I could not believe that hon. Members who raised the point could be in any doubt. The figure of 5 per cent. was put in to leave a safe margin at which money may be borrowed. The rate of interest might change. The figure of 5 per cent. was put in as a maximum—[ Interruption ]. If instead of the words "not exceeding five pounds per centum per annum" there had appeared the words "with interest at five per cent," the remarks made by the hon. Members opposite would have been justified. The words in the Subsection cover the rate which is being paid at the present time, and give a margin in case such margin is required.
I beg to move, "That the Debate be now adjourned."
I move this Motion on the ground of the absence of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. If he is perfectly well, there is no reason why he should not be here. He may be at the opera. I do not know. I think everybody is extraordinarily dissatisfied with the explanation of the Financial Secretary. He has not explained whether it is common form to put in 5 per cent. year after year. The Financial Secretary came here with two sentences and asked the House to sanction this expenditure. The House should go into considerable criticism of financial matter. [ Interruption. ] The hon. Gentleman allows a margin of 2½ per cent. in case of a possible rise of interest. Why should there be this sudden rise of 50 per cent. [ Interruption. ] It is an enormous margin. The Chancellor of the Exchequer is not here to give an explanation of this enormous expenditure. If the hon. Gentleman can give an explanation of the absence of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, we might reconsider the matter.
rose —
On a point of Order. May I ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether the Motion has been accepted?
I cannot accept the Motion.
Would it be open to us to raise the question of the absence of the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the Consolidated Fund Bill?
I rise to give an answer to the question of the hon. Member. The Chancellor of the Exchequer happens to be ill at the present time, and he is absent for that reason. [ Interruption ]. I am sure the usual courtesy will be extended and that the explanation that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is far from well will be accepted. I quite appreciate the way hon. Members have put forward this point. It is also part of the common form that Members of the Opposition should take an opportunity of this kind to complain. Really, the answer I gave is perfectly correct. This Bill is in common form. The rate of interest which it prescribes—which is a maximum rate—has not been changed for many years, although there have been many fluctuations, upwards and downwards, in current market rates.
I had no idea that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was ill. [ Interruption. ] Hon. Members opposite doubt my word. I made deliberately that qualification in my speech. I would be sorry if hon. Members did not accept my word.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read a Second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for To-morrow.
National Health Insurance (Prolongation of Insurance) [Money]
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. ROBERT YOUNG in the Chair.]
Motion made, and Question, proposed,
"That it is expedient
1.0 a.m.
I am glad to be in a position to inform the Committee that an agreement has been reached which will enable us to place the Prolongation of Insurance Bill on the Statute Book this week. For that agreement I wish to thank the members on the other side for the accommodation they have shown in this matter. I understand that there is a general desire that the main debate should take place on the Second Reading of the Bill, and, therefore, tonight, with the permission of the Committee, I will tell them the purpose of the Resolution in a few words. I understand that the arrangement is, that we should get the Committee stage to-night, the Report stage to-morrow, and take the remaining stages of the Bill on Wednesday, when, I gather, Members opposite wish to state their case against the action which I have taken. I have never had any desire in any way to prevent hon. Members opposite from stating a case which, until to-day, I did not gather they had. I assumed that this Bill would have been substantially non-controversial. The purpose of the Money Resolution, as most hon. Members know, is to retain in insurance a number of people, who now, under the existing law and regulations, would cease to be insured for Health Insurance and for Widows' and Old Age Pensions at the end of this year. Our desire is to retain them in insurance at the expense of the Exchequer. A number of persons will fall out of benefit at the end of this year—that means that they have been unemployed for more than two and a-half years—and also a number will fall out of benefit in June of the coming year, through the same cause, as they will have come to the end of their extended rights under National Health Insurance. We propose to keep alive their rights under both the National Health Insurance and the Old Age and Widows' Pensions for a further year.
There are several categories of contributions to be considered. The first is the contribution in respect of the insured person who will not cease to be entitled to benefits until June, 1931. Normally, where a person is in employment 40 contributions per year have been found actually to meet what is required, but as a number of these people will come within the above and other categories, 36 contributions for a year will be sufficient to cover the necessary contributions. It is almost impossible to ascertain precisely the amount that this will cost, but the number of persons affected by this Resolution is somewhere between 60,000 and 100,000, and, from what information we have available, I imagine it will fall round about 80,000 persons, and the cost, through our paying from the Exchequer the contributions which are payable to the approved societies, will be between £80,000 and £130,000. If the number is medium, as I imagine it will be, the cost will be somewhat less than £100,000. In addition to that, the State will be called upon to pay its contribution—one-seventh in the case of a man and one-fifth in the case of a woman—which will amount to from £14,000 to £20,000. Hon. Members will realise that we cannot, with precision, state the total amount of the State indebtedness which will arise on this question. I assure the Committee that it is not likely to be as high as the maximum sum I have mentioned. It will be possible for the House to debate the matter on the Second Reading of the Bill, as hon. Members are aware that this Financial Resolution will not be effective until after the Bill has become law. I hope that the Committee will be satisfied with this explanation, and will be prepared to accept the agreement which has been arrived at by all parties in the House.
I do not desire at this hour of the night to make any observations on the matter contained in the Resolution, but I must make some observations on the conduct of business which has led to the present position. This is a matter that, of course, affects both sides of the House. As the House is well aware, at the close of a Session, or a part of a Session, or at a Prorogation it is customary for the convenience of Members, for the convenience of the Government, and for the business of the House, for the parties in the House to consult as to the necessary business to be dealt with in the few days that are left so that we all may know exactly where we are when the last day of the Session arrives. All this was done as usual, and no mention was made of this particular Bill which is to be passed upon this Resolution. Not only that, but at Question Time I put a question to the Prime Minister and the Government had no idea of passing this Bill. So far as I can understand, it was obvious that had it been thought necessary that this Bill should have been passed there was no reason why it should not have been brought in weeks ago.
Further, I may add that there was a Motion down to-day to take private Members' time—a Motion that is dear to the heart of an Opposition—but it was not challenged because the Opposition had been through the business with the representatives of the Government and an agreement had been reached as to what business would be taken. Therefore, we considered that the whole thing had been settled, and we said nothing on that Motion. That is what I have to complain about. If the Government thought that a Bill was desirable, it should have been taken weeks ago. That is quite apart from the merits of the Bill. What I complain of is the upsetting of the arrangement come to. Having said that, and this is the last word I am going to say on behalf of the Opposition, I think the Government have acted quite fairly in that they recognise that this is a subject on which there is a good deal to be said. A custom has grown up in the House of taking the principal discussion on Financial Resolutions, to shorten subsequent discussions on the Second Reading of the Bill. When I first entered the House the Financial Resolution was often purely a formal matter, and the whole debate centred on the Second Reading. On this occasion, the Government ask us to take the full discussion on the Second Reading of the Bill. I accept that.
The Minister of Health, I think, forgot one point in his speech about the arrangement that had been come to. It must have escaped his memory. The arrangement, as reported to me, was that Wednesday, after the Expiring Laws Bill has been considered, is to be devoted to this Bill, and the Third Reading of the Education Bill is to be postponed till we meet after Christmas. That was the agreement to which I assented, and I think that was a perfectly fair agreement. In these circumstances, I do not propose at this stage to say anything further, and I think my party will not be treated unfairly if they reserve their observations to the Second Reading and avail themselves of the opportunity then provided on Wednesday.
I am sorry I did not make that point quite clear. It is understood that we take the debate on Wednesday, after the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill, and that the Third Reading of the Education Bill will be postponed till we reassemble after Christmas.
I have taken some interest in this matter for many months and I would like to say that I think the whole House will be glad that a decision is to be taken before the Recess. There is no case for leaving a section of these people in a different position from that of any other. Therefore, I think it will be generally agreed throughout the whole House that it is wise to take it before we go away for the Recess.
Do we take the Report of the Education Bill on Thursday?
I suppose the arrangement is that if we cannot finish the Report stage of the Education Bill in one day we should be able to complete it after the Recess, provided that the Report and Third Reading did not take more than one day.
I think the assumption was that the Report stage would be finished by Thursday night and that we would begin the Third Reading after the Recess.
Question put, and agreed to.
Resolution to be reported To-morrow.
Census Order, 1930
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Section 13 of Part II of the Second Schedule to the draft of the Census Order, 1930, presented on the 28th October, be approved."—[ Mr. T. Kennedy. ]
I think we ought to ask what is the purport of this Motion and for some reason to be given for the necessity for this additional inquiry. I do not want to press the matter beyond asking that we may have a statement of that kind. When the Act was passed under which this Order is made there was very considerable debate at the time as to the propriety of making inquiries beyond certain limits in the census papers, and it was expressly provided that if the Government of the day wished to be able to make all sorts of additional inquiries they could only do so by resolution of this House. In the circumstances I think we ought to have a short statement of what the Government intend.
The point here is a very short one indeed. The House will observe that it is asked to approve Section 13 of Part II of the Second Schedule of the draft of the Census Order, 1930, as presented on 28th October, bring an Order in Council to be made under Subsection one of Section one of the Census Act 1920. The Act of 1920, Section 1, Sub-section (2) provides that certain matters, which fall within paragraph 6 of the Schedule of that Act to be included as particulars in the census form that will be issued, can only be included after they are approved by Resolution of this House. If the House will look for a moment at item 13 of the Draft Order-in-Council, it will see that Item 13, which is printed in italics, provides for the question
There is a second purpose. In Scotland to-day certain inquiries are being carried out in order to ascertain the incidence of disease among insured persons. That is an experiment which is being undertaken in Scotland, and, in order to facilitate that inquiry, the information, which it is hoped to obtain from the answers to Question 13 in the draft Order, will be valuable information. Accordingly, I hope that with that answer the House will grant the necessary confirming Resolution.
Question put, and agreed to.
Resolved,
"That Section 13 of Part II of the Second Schedule to the Draft of the Census Order, 1930, presented on the 28th October, be approved."
Court of Session Bill
Read a Second time, and committed to a Standing Committee.
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
It being after half-past Eleven of the Clock upon Monday evening, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned at Twenty-Five Minutes after One o'Clock.