House of Commons
Tuesday, March 24, 1931
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
Private Business
Private Bills [ Lords ] (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That in the case of the following Bills, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:—
Lowestoft Water and Gas Bill [ Lords ].
Carnegie Hero Fund Trust Bill [ Lords ].
London Assurance Bill [ Lords ].
Bills to be read a Second time.
Private Bills (Petitions for additional Provision) (Standing Orders not complied with),—
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That in the case of the Petitions for additional Provision in the following Bills the Standing Orders have not been complied with, namely:—
London County Council (General Powers) Bill.
London Midland and Scottish Railway Bill.
Report referred to the Select Committee on Standing Orders.
Oral Answers to Questions
Questions
Poison Gas
asked the Secretary of State for War which foreign countries maintain poison - gas experimental stations; and which of these are parties to the convention on the subject?
Practically all large countries who are parties to the Geneva Protocol maintain anti-gas establishments, and carry out experimental and research work in connection with anti-gas defence.
Does that include Russia?
I would rather not mention any particular nation.
British Army
Officers' Training Corps
asked the Secretary of State for War what financial saving is anticipated during the present year from the new proposals regarding officers' training corps; and how many boys under 15 and 16, respectively, will be affected thereby?
The new rule regarding grants and issues in kind such as arms, ammunition and personal equipment, will come into operation on 1st April, 1932. Practically no financial saving is, consequently, anticipated during the coming financial year. The new financial rules will, therefore, affect practically no boys during the year ending 1st April, 1932. But the new rule regarding the age of enrolment will, it is estimated, affect some 3,500 boys under the age of 15, who on past experience might have been expected to enrol during the year.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say what the saving is likely to be in 1932?
No, Sir; it is quite impossible to form an estimate.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of his decision to raise the age at which school personnel may join their officers' training corps, he will increase the rate of grant to officers' training corps throughout the country so that their efficiency may not be impaired by lack of funds?
The answer is in the negative. But I would remind the hon. and gallant Member that grants from Army funds were not given in respect of boys under the age of 15, and the new rule as regards the age of enrolment does not, therefore, affect the funds derived from that source.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that under the new regulations the funds of the officers' training corps will be faced with deficits unless the subscriptions of the personnel are increased, and that the parents of these personnel are not always in a financial position to support such additional cost?
I do not think that that question arises. No difference of a substantial character will be made in any way in the grants that are given. The question of schools and parents in the case of boys who are under the age of 15 does not concern the War Office, or will not concern the War Office when the new regulations enter into force.
Territorial Artillery (Storage Accommodation)
asked the Secretary of State for War, whether in the case of Territorial artillery brigades being mechanised provision is being made for the six-wheeled tractors and necessary spares, etc., being kept under lock and key?
The exact arrangements for housing these vehicles will necessarily depend on the existing accommodation and on the particular circumstances of each case, but suitable steps will be taken in all cases to ensure that the vehicles are properly safeguarded.
Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that, apart from the vehicles being safeguarded, there are at such a depot all sorts of other spare parts which do not exist in the case of horse vehicles, and which it is important to safeguard as well as the vehicles themselves?
Yes, Sir; I am fully aware of the necessity for safeguarding all these parts.
Ex-Soldiers' Employment Organisations (Subscriptions)
asked the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been drawn to a circular issued on 26th February, 1931, by the War Office, suggesting that a fixed quota should be subscribed by the various regiments or their regimental associations towards a new scheme to provide employment for ex-regular ex-service men; and whether, in view of the many other charitable purposes for which these private funds are now used, he can assure these regimental associations that any subscriptions they may wish to give to the new organisation will be purely voluntary?
The circular in question was in the form of a semi-official letter from the late Adjutant-General to colonels of regiments, informing them of the scheme for co-ordinating the activities of the various organisations concerned with obtaining employment for ex-regulars and asking for their support. In order to make the scope of the scheme as effective as possible, an annual subscription on a common basis was suggested, but this annual subscription would, as has been the case with regimental subscriptions to the various organisations in the past, be entirely voluntary on the part of regiments. Replies to the circular are now awaited.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, while all regiments would like to subscribe as much as they can, some would be unable to find the amount suggested in the circular; and will he gave an assurance that it will be entirely voluntary?
The answer, I think, gives that assurance absolutely.
Scotland
Housing
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many houses that have been built in Lanarkshire under the recent Housing Acts are at present unlet?
Of the 9,804 houses erected up to 28th February, 1931, by the county council of Lanark under the various State-assisted schemes, there were 52 unlet at that date.
Is the Secretary of State now satisfied that Lanarkshire is doing its duty in regard to housing?
I am afraid that that question does not arise.
Arising out of the original reply, is the Under-Secretary aware that half the population of Lanarkshire are living in one and two-apartment houses, many of them condemned; and is he satisfied that the authority is not doing its duty?
Equally, I am afraid, I must answer that that question does not arise. The question on the Paper relates specifically to the proportion of unlet property under existing schemes.
Can the hon. Gentleman say why there should be even 52 houses unlet, when there is a shortage of houses?
Only 5 per cent. of the houses are unlet, and I am advised that more than half of them are in one little village.
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if the county council of Stirlingshire has made a survey of the housing needs of the county as enjoined to do by the Housing Act; what number of uninhabitable houses and overcrowded houses are given in the report; and how many houses they propose to build in the next three years?
I am informed that the county council of Stirlingshire have adopted estimates of the housing needs of their area, based upon reports in the possession of the three district committees of the council when they demitted office. The county council propose to build 580 houses within the next three years. Of these houses 380 are estimated to be required to replace houses unfit for habitation, and 200 to meet the normal growth of population. As regards overcrowding, inquiries are being made by the county council as to any areas that should be dealt with as improvement areas. The county council have informed me that if their proposals prove insufficient to meet the housing needs of the county, they will consider a further programme, and for this purpose they propose to review the needs of each area in the county separately as and when it is dealt with under the present proposals.
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland at what rentals any new houses of two, three, and four apartments have been let in Scotland under the Housing (Scotland) Act, 1930?
1,058 houses have been definitely approved for erection under the Housing (Scotland) Act, 1930, and, at 28th February, 1931, 324 were under construction. No houses under the Act are yet completed, and no intimation has yet been made to the Department of Health for Scotland in regard to rentals to be charged.
Can the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland tell us whether it is the law or not that those who are living in these houses that are uninhabitable do not require to pay rent?
I think that with regard to an important question of that kind I really ought to have notice.
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he has had submitted to him a statement by the county council of Kirkcudbrightshire showing how many houses they propose to build under the Housing (Scotland) Act, 1930; if he can say how many houses they propose to build; and how these figures correspond with the needs of the county as disclosed in the report of the medical officer?
The county council have submitted the general statement required by Sub-section two of Section twenty-two of the Housing (Scotland) Act, 1930, which shows that they do not propose to erect any houses. As a report received from the county medical officer in 1927 indicated that 570 houses were then estimated to be required to replace houses that were unfit for human habitation and also to meet the needs of persons living in furnished apartments, the Department of Health for Scotland have communicated with the county council asking for further consideration of the matter in the light of that report.
School Children, Lanarkshire (Medical and Dental Treatment)
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland the number and percentage of children in the county of Lanark who require medical or dental treatment in their first year of school life?
As regards defects requiring treatment, the returns furnished by the local authority do not distinguish between children in their first year of school life and others. The total number of school children who were medically examined at the routine medical inspections in the county of Lanark during the school year 1929–30 was 31,565, of whom 11,546, or 36.6 per cent., were found to have some disability. The number of children dentally examined in the course of the year was 74,818, of whom 52,611, or 70 per cent., were found to require dental treatment.
Does the Under-Secretary consider that to be a normal proportion? Does he not think that an inquiry is necessary to find out why so high a proportion of these children require treatment?
Obviously, I could not say whether that was a normal or an abnormal figure without comparing it with the statistics for other counties, but certainly it is a very serious state of affairs, and everything possible is being done to speed up a medical treatment scheme.
Since that figure is abnormal as compared with most other counties, does the Under-Secretary consider that anything can be done to investigate the matter by his Department?
I will put that point to my right hon. Friend.
National Health Insurance (Share Fishermen)
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he can state approximately the number of share fishermen in Scotland who have taken out National Health Insurance cards; and what steps he has taken to ensure that all share fishermen are stamping cards?
I have no means of saying how many share fishermen have become insured persons in Scotland. Like any other members of the insured population, share fishermen are free to join whichever societies are prepared to accept them. It is estimated, however, that there are approximately 20,000 share fishermen in Scotland and the Department of Health are satisfied that there is general compliance with the requirements of the National Health Insurance Act of 1928, under which share fishermen, at their own request, were brought within the scope of compulsory health and pensions insurance for the first time. As regards the latter part of the question, the Department's inspectors are exercising a close supervision at the various fishing ports in order to ensure that the Act is being complied with.
Coal Industry
Selling Arrangements
asked the Secretary for Mines if he will take steps to obtain powers to establish a central selling agency for coal?
Following on the report of the delegation to Scandinavia, I have had discussions with representatives of the coal industry with regard to the need for co-ordinating the selling arrangements of collieries and exporters and the industry has the matter under consideration. Meantime, I do not propose to seek compulsory powers as suggested by my hon. Friend.
Working Hours
asked the Secretary for Mines whether he is aware that deputies are being called upon at collieries in Durham to work nine and nine and a-half hours in contravention of the Coal Mines Act; and if he will take steps to have such practices ended?
No complaints of the nature suggested have been received by His Majesty's Divisional Inspector; if my hon. Friend will let me know the cases he has in mind I will have inquiries made.
If I put a definite case before the Minister, will he cause inquiry to be made by his inspectors, as these men in many instances dare not complain for fear of being victimised.
No representations have been made to me by the Miners' Association. No doubt, if there were a large number of cases, they would make representations.
Will the hon. Gentleman take steps through his inspectors to investigate the books of the collieries to see whether or not it is correct that these men are working these abnormal hours, endangering their own lives and those of the men under their charge?
I will consider that point.
Will the hon. Gentleman, also indicate to the collieries in the Midland area the need for keeping the terms of the existing Act?
asked the Secretary for Mines whether the Government are making any proposals to the mining industry regarding the situation which will be created by the automatic introduction of the seven hours' day in June next?
The whole position is engaging the close and constant attention of the Government; but I am not at present in a position to make any statement.
Stocks
asked the Secretary for Mines what stocks of coal were held by colliery owners for the years 1989 and 1930; and can he say what reduction, if any, has taken place during 1931?
At 31st December, 1929, the stocks of coal at mines in Great Britain amounted to 3,867,000 statute tons, and at 31st December, 1930, to 5,714,000 statute tons. I regret that later information is not yet available.
Can the hon. Gentleman assure us that there is no danger of being short of coal?
There is a superabundance of coal.
While all over the country there may be a total excess of coal, may there not be a shortage of particular kinds of coal?
The hon. Member is correct in that assumption, but, obviously, the matter requires, in that contingency, some organisation.
Did not that always exist?
Prices
asked the Secretary for Mines if his attention has been drawn to the fixing of minimum prices in districts for the sale of coal under the Coal Mines Act, 1930; and, seeing that such prices are in some instances below the cost price of producing it, will he state what steps he contemplates taking to remedy this by alteration of the Act if necessary?
I am not aware of the actual minimum prices that have been fixed by the districts. But I would remind my hon. Friend that the Central Council has now under active consideration the inter-district co-ordination of prices and satisfactory progress is being made in that direction. If occasion should arise in which I could properly take any action I shall be pleased to do so.
I take it that, if representations are made to the hon. Gentleman by the combined coalowners, he will take steps to remedy the complaint?
We have been in touch with the coalowners in regard to the need for co-ordination in respect of price.
Export Trade (Chile)
asked the Secretary for Mines whether he can give information as to the reasons for the continued decline in British coal exports to Chile; and what steps have been taken by the marketing organisations established under the Coal Mines Act, 1930, to restore this market?
The main reasons for the decline in British coal exports to Chile are the decreased consumption of coal due to the extensive use of oil, and an import duty of 7s. 6d. per ton imposed in the interests of the native coal industry. I am sure that the British coal industry is taking all possible steps to increase its exports to that country.
Supplies
asked the Secretary for Mines whether he will have inquiries made among coal merchants in the South of England as to the extent to which coal supplies fall short of the demand, with a view to recommending some modification of the present restrictions on production?
I am at all times pleased to consider any representations that coal merchants in the South of England may wish to make to me through the Coal Merchants' Federation.
In view of the general disorganisation all over the country, will the hon. Gentleman take some steps to remove the restrictions?
I cannot agree that there is general disorganisation. In so far as there is any disorganisation at all, we are not responsible, and on that point I am in close touch with the coalowners.
Will the hon. Gentleman pay a visit to the Tyne and see what is happening there?
I have been on the Tyne during the week-end.
asked the Secretary for Mines whether he is aware that certain departments of engineering works on the East Coast of England are having difficulty in obtaining adequate supplies of coal; and what action he is taking in the matter?
No cases of shortage of coal for engineering works on the East Coast have been brought to my notice.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the engineering industry cannot possibly afford to pay the increased cost of fuel and the additional freights?
asked the Secretary for Mines whether he is aware that there is a shortage of household coal in Reading and district owing to the quota system of the Coal Mines Act, and will he arrange that supplies to meet house demands are available in that neighbourhood over Easter?
I am not aware of the shortage to which the hon. and gal- lant Member refers, but the merchants in Reading should experience no difficulty in obtaining supplies of house coal. If there is a temporary shortage of supplies from usual sources, I am advised that it is possible to secure coal from South Wales.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the letter I had from the Berkshire Coal Merchants' Association gives the house coal situation as indicated in the question, and would he write an answer to it? No doubt he knows their business better than they know it themselves.
I suggest that, if the Coal Merchants' Association have any difficulties, they might make representations to me, and I will do what I can to help them.
Is my hon. Friend aware that there is a shortage of household coal in Reading and other districts owing to the absence of purchasing power resulting from low wages and unemployment?
asked the Secretary for Mines if he is aware that under the quota scheme certain colliery owners, having entered into contracts for the supply of coal for trawler bunkers, have disposed of coal in the open market and are now unable to fulfil their contracts; that this is causing the fishing industry additional expense through having to purchase coal in other quarters; and whether he will inquire into the matter with a view to avoiding injury to the fishing industry?
Representations have been made to me on behalf of the trawlers owners in the sense indicated in the first part of the question, and I have asked the Executive Board of the Midland (Amalgamated) District to give this matter their attention.
What redress have they in this matter? If it was a case of breach of contract, they could go to court, but at present they have no redress.
If it is a case of breach of contract, that is entirely a matter for the court. Any difficulty that exists is now being put right.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that these owners, innocent people, are precluded from going to court and can only look to him for help?
It entirely depends on the terms of the contract.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there was inserted in these contracts a provision that, if the Government, through the quota scheme, prevented coal being mined, these people should not be held responsible?
Pony Lamps
asked the Secretary for Mines whether the experiments for using an electric cap-lamp for pit ponies have reached any conclusion; and, if so, whether it is his intention to authorise their use in mines?
With my permission, pony lamps are now being tried out at several mines in different coalfields, and I am prepared to extend that permission on a limited scale to other collieries. But before I give a general approval for the unrestricted use of safety lamps of this character, it is desirable that they should undergo extended trials under a variety of working conditions, in order to determine reliably the safest and most suitable design.
Will the hon. Gentleman take that matter into account in dealing with the question of pit ponies and see if he can make rules?
Certainly.
Year. Number of Mines using Coal-cutting Machines. Coal Conveyors. Great Britain. Lancashire and Cheshire. Great Britain. Lancashire and Cheshire. 1926 … … … … 898 91 Not available. 1927 … … … … 929 94 1928 … … … … 908 96 430 30 1929 … … … … 881 94 444 39 1930 … … … … 867 * 90 543 * 45 * Provisional figures. Provisional figures.
Employment
asked the Secretary for Mines the number of persons employed at the coal face in the mining industry of Great Britain during
Anthracite (Imports, Canada)
asked the Secretary for Mines if he will state the amount of anthracite coal imported into Canada from Great Britain during the year 1929 and during the year 1930; and if he will state the amount of anthracite coal imported into Canada from Soviet Russia for the same periods?
According to the official Canadian statistics, the quantities of anthracite imported into Canada during the year 1930 from Great Britain and Soviet Russia were 890,395 tons and 260,185 tons respectively. The corresponding figures for 1929 were 582,171 tons and 104,825 tons respectively.
Coal-Cutting Machines and Conveyors
24 and 25.
asked the Secretary for Mines (1) the number of collieries in Great Britain using coal-cutting machines for each of the five years ended 31st December, 1930, giving separate figures for Lancashire and Cheshire;
(2) the number of collieries in Great Britain using coal conveyors underground for each of the five years ended 31st December, 1930, giving separate figures for Lancashire and Cheshire?
As the replies to these questions involve a table of figures, I will circulate the information, so far as it is available, in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the information:
each of the five years ended 31st December, 1930, giving separate figures for Lancashire and Cheshire?
I regret that this information is not available. The only figures available are those obtained specially for the Coal Industry Commission, which relate to October, 1924. The estimated number of persons then employed at the coal face in Great Britain was 482,000, or 51.3 per cent. of the total number employed below-ground. The corresponding figures for Lancashire and Cheshire were 42,000 and 49.9 per cent.
Empire Settlement (Victoria)
28 and 29.
asked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs (1) if the Royal Commission inquiring into the position of British settlers in Victoria, who went to that territory under the Overseas Settlement Act, is still in session; and when their report is expected;
(2) whether he is aware that the Government of Victoria have decided to take the whole of the crops raised last year by settlers in that State; to value them, taking a percentage for Government charges; pay a certain sum to the settlers' creditors, and allocate a sustenance allowance at reduced rates to the settlers on a basis of single men £4 a month and married men £6 10s. a month, with 10s. extra for each child; and, seeing that the cost of living in Victoria has risen and is now about 40 per cent. higher than in England, whether he will call for a report from the representative of the British Government in Victoria superintending settlement matters under the Overseas Settlement Act?
I understand that the Royal Commission on Migrant Land Settlement in Victoria commenced its sessions on 9th February, and temporarily adjourned on 20th February. It is anticipated that the proceedings will be resumed on 30th March. The amount of the sustenance allowance to settlers in Victoria is a matter for determination by the Government of Victoria, and I do not think that any useful purpose would be served by acting on the suggestion made by the hon. and gallant Member.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Association of British Settlers there are having to get relief from charitable sources?
I have heard that, but the question I have been asked is whether the Government will interfere? The hon. and gallant Member knows perfectly well that Dominion status prevents one Government from interfering with another, and the Dominions themselves would resent that sort of thing as much as we would resent it.
Have not these migrants from Great Britain gone out there with a guarantee from this Government that suitable conditions would be provided for them?
There is no migration scheme which carries with it the guarantee of this Government. It is most unfortunate that this and other incidents have happened. The question put to me is, whether the Government will interfere in a matter which, however much we may regret it, is within the jurisdiction of the Dominion itself.
I do not suggest that there should be an interference by His Majesty's Government, but that there should be an inquiry by the British representative out there.
Whatever construction we might place on any action at a time when a Royal Commission is investigating the matter would be construed as an attempt to influence that Royal Commission.
Trade and Commerce
Russia
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will give figures and any other information in his possession regarding the dumping of textile piece-goods by Soviet Russia in British markets?
As the right hon. Gentleman is probably aware, the Soviet Trade Representative announced in June last that the Soviet Government would not sell cotton manufactures in any part of the British Empire. That undertaking was later confirmed by the Soviet Government, and, as I stated on 3rd February in answer to a question by the hon. Member for Farnham, I am not aware of any failure to carry out the undertaking.
The question I asked was whether the right hon. Gentleman would give information regarding the sale by Soviet Russia of textile piece goods in British markets, and not in the British Empire.
The suggestion in the supplementary question of the right hon. Gentleman will be impossible, or at all events very difficult. I interpreted his question to refer plainly to the declaration made some time ago.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that some of this Russian stuff was being sold in France, whose merchants offered it in our export markets?
asked the President of the Board of Trade what were the quantities of wheat, barley, and oats imported by Great Britain from the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics for 1930; and what proportion do the imports of wheat, barley, and oats from the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics bear to Great Britain's total imports of these commodities for 1930?
During the year 1930, the total imports of wheat, barley and oats into the United Kingdom, registered as consigned from the Soviet Union (Russia) amounted to 18,853,000 cwts., 5,969,000 cwts., and 2,757,000 cwts., respectively, representing 18.0 per cent., 39.1 per cent., and 28.5 per cent., respectively, of the total imports from all sources.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether he has inquired into the prices of these cereals and whether they do not represent—
That question does not arise.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will state, in hundredweights, the quantity of wheat imported into Britain and the Irish Free State from Russia for the months of January and February?
As stated in the January and February issues of the "Accounts relating to Trade and Navigation of the United Kingdom," the total quantity of wheat imported into Great Britain and Northern Ireland and registered during the months of January and February, 1931, as consigned from the Soviet Union (Russia) amounted to 2,969,470 cwts. and 837,569 cwts., respectively. Similar monthly particulars of the imports of wheat into the Irish Free State are not published in the trade returns of that country.
Is there any record of the price at which this wheat is imported?
I should require separate notice of that question.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the actual average market price of the wheat—
Order, order.
asked the President of the Board of Trade, whether he can give information as to the course of imports of tin plate, tin cans and tinned fruit into Great Britain from Soviet Russia during the past six months; and whether, in view of the preparations of the Soviet Government under the five years' plan for intensive efforts to increase the amount of such exports, he will consider taking immediate steps to prevent injury to industries in this country?
During the six months ended February, 1931, no imports of tinned plates and sheets or tinned plates shaped for boxes and other containers were recorded as consigned from the Soviet Union (Russia). During the same period the imports of tinned or bottled fruit from the Soviet Union amounted to 10,925 cwts., valued at £12,524, of which nearly half was imported in October. As regards the second part of the question, I have nothing to add to previous answers on this subject.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that many consignments of Russian furniture have been imported this year into this country and have been offered to British merchants at prices considerably below the prevailing market price for such furniture; and can he state how the importation of Russian furniture this year compares in bulk with that in former years for the corresponding period?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. The imports into the United Kingdom of furniture registered as consigned from the Soviet Union (Russia) during the months of January and February, 1931, were valued at £735. The value of these imports during 1930 was £11,718, none of which was recorded in the first two months of the year.
Can the President of the Board of Trade say whether there were any consignments for the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Marjoribanks)?
Is it not the fact that the imports of our goods into Russia have greatly increased in the same period?
Cotton Industry
asked the President of the Board of Trade what steps he proposes to take to help the Lancashire cotton industry, as a result of the deputation from the Master Cotton Spinners' Federation and the Cotton Spinners' and Manufacturers' Association which recently waited upon him and the Secretary of State for India to discuss the question of boycott and increase in import duties upon cotton goods entering India?
Quite apart from this deputuation, His Majesty's Government have been consistently watching the situation with a view to taking any steps that are practicable. As regards the increase in cotton import duties, I would refer the right hon. Gentleman to the answers given by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to questions on the 4th and 9th March. This matter is out of our hands. As regards the boycott question, I need only refer him to the Paper recently issued regarding the outcome of the conversations between His Excellency the Governor-General and Mr. Gandhi, and to the statements subsequently made in this House by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for India. Both my right hon. Friend and I are keeping in the closest touch with the situation.
Am I to understand from the answer that the Government have nothing practical to suggest as the result of the interviews?
My right hon. Friend would be wrong in making that assumption. I think that he will recognise that together we have done everything by representation that can be done in this matter.
Does not my right hon. Friend realise that, in order to secure the revival of the cotton industry in Lancashire, it is urgently imperative for the Government to act at once in regard to a National Cotton Control Board developing and controlling the industry?
Has the right hon. Gentleman made any proposals to the Government of India that there should be a tariff truce?
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he has now any statement to make as to the plans the Government propose to put into operation to assist the cotton industry; and if these plans will involve legislation and financial assistance?
I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to him on this subject on the 24th February and to that given on the 10th March to the hon. Member for Stockport (Mr. Hammersley), of which I am sending him copies.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that for nearly two years we have been asking him for information on this subject and have been unable to get it?
I cannot plead guilty to so grave a charge. A great deal of information has been given and a very considerable amount of work has been undertaken.
May I ask whether the Government—
The right hon. Gentleman has replied to the question on the Order Paper.
rose —
We cannot have any more supplementaries to this question.
Tariff Truce
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he can make a statement to the House concerning the tariff truce and the recent proceedings at the Geneva Conference?
asked the President of the Board of Trade what steps he will take following the report of the Conference for Concerted Economic Action to the effect that there is no hope of obtaining a general acceptance of the tariff truce proposed by him at Geneva?
asked the President of the Board of Trade what action the Government proposes to take in connection with the tariff truce in view of the recent discussions at Geneva?
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, having regard to the result of the recent meeting of the Economic Conference at Geneva, he will abandon further effort for the promotion of the tariff truce?
The conclusions of the recent Conference at Geneva in regard to the Commercial Convention were explaind in the answer given yesterday by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary for the Overseas Trade Department to the hon. and gallant Members for the Isle of Wight (Captain P. Macdonald) and East Lewisham (Sir A. Pownall). I have repeatedly emphasised in this House that I have always regarded this Convention not as an end in itself, but as affording an opportunity for further negotiations with a view to securing reductions in European Customs Tariffs. As my hon. Friend has already stated these negotiations will continue.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether, in view of what transpired at Geneva the other day, he seriously proposes to continue this tariff truce arrangement?
I have always made it quite clear to the House that we did not for a moment minimise the difficulty in this connection, but we still believe that a downward movement in these tariffs is desirable, and we shall continue to do everything we can to encourage it.
rose —
We cannot enter upon a debate on this matter to-day.
asked the President of the Board of Trade how many Governments continued to raise their tariffs after they had approved of the recommendations of the Economic Conference of 1927 to the effect that the economic development of the world was being retarded by tariff walls?
Statements conveying general approval of the conclusions of the World Economic Conference of 1927 were made on behalf of a considerable number of Governments, particularly in Europe, but including also those of certain extra European countries. Since the date of the conference tariff increases which may be regarded as of substantial importance have been introduced by the following countries which may be said to have intimated such a general approval, namely: Austria, Bulgaria, Chile, Czechoslovakia, Finland, France, German, Hungary, Italy, Persia, Poland and Portugal.
Will the right hon. Gentleman now take steps to request those countries which raised their tariffs as a result of his truce proposals to bring them down to the pre-truce-proposal levels?
Industrial Surveys
asked the President of the Board of Trade when the industrial surveys in certain industrial areas are to be commenced; and whether he can state the machinery that will be utilised for such surveys?
The surveys will be put in hand at once. They will be undertaken by the universities in the areas concerned. The Government have offered to place at the disposal of the university staffs the statistical material in the hands of the various departments concerned, and to lend such assistance as may be necessary to co-ordinate the work. It is also anticipated that the work will be facilitated by the co-operation of development organisations in the areas, to whom the results should be of great value.
I take it that the results will be communicated to this House?
At the earliest possible point, of course, I will make a statement on this and upon other matters affected by these surveys.
Does the right hon. Gentleman not think that this is a better use to make of the universities than having representatives in this House?
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of his intention to institute an industrial survey of four areas in Great Britain where unemployment is heaviest with a view to industrial development, he will consider including the mining area of West Cumberland in the survey, in view of the depression which has existed there for 10 years?
For reasons of practical expediency it is desirable that effort should be concentrated at this stage on the larger areas most severely affected by the depression in the basic industries. This does not mean that the circumstances of other areas are being overlooked and it may be that the experience gained in carrying out the present surveys will suggest that similar inquiries should be carried out elsewhere.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the very great economic mineral possibilities of the area of West Cumberland, and, if so, will he bear that in mind?
That bears upon the reply that I gave last week. We are beginning this survey early in May. Of course, we hope that the inquiry will be extended to other areas, and I think I can assure my hon. Friend that further development will be accelerated, if we proceed by this method.
Can the right hon. Gentleman indicate when the surveys will be completed?
No. Obviously, this is a very large task. We shall hope that from time to time, and as soon as may be, practical results will be available on specific proposals.
In connection with these industrial surveys, will the right hon. Gentleman consult the Chambers of Commerce all over the country who may have valuable suggestions to make?
We have undertaken to keep in close touch with local development committees and the hon. Member may assume that all the commercial bodies, trade unions, and others interested in the locality will be consulted.
Bounties and Subsidies
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has now received any information concerning the conclusions of the economic committee of the League of Nations on the question of dumping bounties and subsidies?
I understand that the economic committee of the League of Nations still have these questions under consideration, and have not yet formulated any conclusions upon them.
Has the right hon. Gentleman any information when we are likely to have the report?
I gather that an effective step was taken towards the end of February, but I am afraid that it will be a month or two at least before we get the information.
Iron and Steel Industry
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he has now any statement to make as to the plans the Government propose to put into operation to assist the steel industry, and if these plans will involve legislation and financial assistance?
I would refer the hon. Member to the replies given on this subject on the 15th December and the 17th March last to the hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. Rennie Smith) and the hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Womersley) respectively, of which I am sending him copies.
Has the right hon. Gentleman's attention been called to the very serious accusations made by the Prime Minister last year, and does he not think—
That is another question.
Finance and Industry
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, seeing that the Macmillan Committee on Finance and Industry finished taking evidence several months ago, he can now say when it is expected that their report will be published?
I cannot at present add to the reply which I gave on 17th March to the hon. Member for Gravesend (Mr. Albery).
Is the Financial Secretary aware that the continued delay in the publication of this report is causing the gravest concern in the country?
I am aware that the Committee are pressing forward with their report with all possible speed.
Will the Financial Secretary represent to the Committee the importance of having an interim report before the Budget discussions in view of the importance of the facts that they have collected?
I am afraid that an interim report would not serve that purpose. The report is in active preparation.
Dried Milk (Import Restrictions)
asked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department what countries prohibit the importation of dried condensed milk; and what countries levy an import duty on dried condensed milk?
I understand the question relates to dried milk or milk in a powdered form. I am advised that the term "condensed milk" is not usually applied to these products. According to the information available, the importation of dried milk is prohibited in Australia. In the other British Dominions, in India, and in many British Colonies and foreign countries, the importation or sale of milk preparations not containing prescribed minima of milk fats, etc., is prohibited. As regards the second part of the question, the tariffs of most countries impose duties on these products, the exceptions being the Irish Free State, certain Colonies, Denmark, Holland, Peru and the Dominican Republic.
Will the hon. Gentleman state the reason why the tariffs are applied by those foreign countries?
Companies Act
asked the President of the Board of Tirade the further period which is allowed to elapse before the 534 defaulting public companies, as at 17th March, 1931, are compelled to make the returns in accordance with Section 110 of the Companies Act, 1929, in respect of which they are already more than two and a-half months in arrear?
asked the President of the Board of Trade under what legislative authority he has excused 534 public companies from obeying Section 110 of the Companies Act, 1929, for a period of 10 weeks after the date laid down by the Act?
As Section 110 allows a company 28 days for the completion of the return, it is not possible until the end of January to compile a list of the companies which are in default in respect of the preceding calendar year. During February all the companies referred to in the questions were requested by the Registrar to file the returns. All those that have not filed the return have been reported to the solicitor for such action as may be necessary, except in those cases in which the Registrar is in correspondence with the company regarding an incomplete return or the company is in process of dissolution. The number of cases in which the return has not yet been filed is now less than 400.
Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that these returns are very much multiplied? There used to be only one return necessary and now they have to make two, three or four copies. It is a heavy job.
I should require notice of that question. There are certain additional returns, but the number outstanding has been very largely reduced.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will invite the committee of the London Stock Exchange, the committees of the Institute of Chartered Accountants and of the Incorporated Accountants, and of the Federation of British Industries to furnish him with information about defects in the Companies Act, 1929, and as to how the Act, in the light of recent financial disasters, can be improved for the protection of the public?
I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave to a question by the hon. Member for Ilford (Sir G. Hamilton) on the 17th March.
Will the right hon. Gentleman do everything in his power to protect the investing public in view of the very unsatisfactory answer given to the hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede)?
The position is quite plain. We will do everything in our power to secure a vigorous application of the Companies Act of 1929, but hon. Members have asked me for Amendments, and I am unable to promise fresh legislation until the existing Act has had a rather longer run.
Is it not a fact that the recent financial disaster was due to the banks patronising—
That is another question.
May I not ask a supplementary question?
We cannot build up a discussion by supplementaries on every question.
I was asking whether it was not due to a cause other than the Companies Act?
That is a matter of opinion.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has yet requested the Institute of Chartered Accountants and the Society of Incorporated Accountants to suggest a statutory formula for auditors' certificates designed to protect the public in cases where companies are combinations working through subsidiaries; and whether he will, when amending the Companies Act, 1929, abolish the legal necessity for an auditor's certificate to be attached to accounts of a parent concern whose auditors will not accept responsibility for the accounts of subsidiary concerns embodied in the accounts of the parent concern?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative and as regards the second part I would refer the hon. Member to the replies which I gave on 3rd March to questions addressed to me by the hon. Member for Twickenham (Sir J. Ferguson) and the hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede).
Mercantile Marine
Health Conditions
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will issue a statement showing what progress has been made by the committee set up over 18 months ago to consider and advise on any questions affecting the health of the Mercantile Marine?
I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer, of which I am sending him a copy, given on the 10th February to questions by the hon. Member for Reading (Dr. Hastings) and the hon. Member for Denbigh (Dr. Morris-Jones). I would add that since that date the committee has dealt with proposals for a new scale of medical equipment for passenger ships, recommendations as to the medical equipment of coastal vessels, and the revision of the pamphlet dealing with the prevention and treatment of malaria on board ship.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the final report of this committee will be presented during the lifetime of the present Government?
The hon. Member is under a misapprehension. There is no final report as regards this committee. It is a permanent committee which reports on its work from time to time, and I have promised to give my hon. Friend information as the information becomes available.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether any arrangement has been come to regarding the space for the crews on our ships?
Yes. I informed my hon. Friend on the last occasion that that question went to the Merchant Shipping Advisory Committee, the statutory com- mittee under the Act, and I am taking steps to get the report following that review.
Salvage, Russian Watees
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the fact that the Soviet Republic have set up a court of marine arbitration to deal with disputes relating to the salvage of foreign ships by Soviet vessels in Soviet waters, he can make any statement on the subject?
The Decree providing for the setting up of this court of arbitration is being considered by my Department, who are in communication with the interests concerned, and I can make no statement on it at present.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether in fact the court has already been set up?
Perhaps the hon. Member will give me notice of that question. I hope to be able to give further information as such information is available.
Questions
Newspapers (Political Influence)
asked the Prime Minister whether he will consider the desirability of introducing legislation to control the abuse of the political influence of the Press?
This matter cannot be controlled by legislation.
Is it not the fact that the so-called freedom of the Press is in many places a denial of that freedom, and will the right hon. Gentleman consider the desirability of setting up a small committee of hon. Members of this House?
Is not all this trouble due to the publication of the "British Gazette"?
National Expenditure (Committee)
asked the Prime Minister if, in view of the urgent need for economy, he will ask the Committee on National Expenditure and Supply Services to present reports at intervals as they complete their investigation of each service, and not to withhold their report till all services have been reviewed?
I have no doubt that the committee are anxious to proceed with the inquiry as expeditiously as possible, and would themselves consider the question of an interim report or reports if the inquiry showed signs of becoming somewhat protracted.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether he has given any direction to this committee that they should report at intervals and not hold up their report for a long time?
The direction given to the committee is that they should finish their work as quickly as possible.
That means the full report.
Income Tax (Assessment Appeals)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether any applications for the reduction of assessment on property, now being revalued under Schedule A, have been accepted?
No applications have yet been made for the reduction of assessments of annual values which are now being made for the purposes of assessment to Income Tax Schedule A for 1931–32 as the notices of these assessments have not yet been issued.
National Revenue (Tariffs)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will consider recommending to the Government the advisability of setting up a small committee of the Cabinet to make an immediate inquiry into the operation of revenue producing tariffs with a view to their adoption in this country?
The answer is in the negative.
May I ask whether the attention of the Financial Secretary has been called to the remark- able pronouncement recently made by principal Cobdenite authorities in favour of tariff reform?
Order, order!
Admiralty Charts (Royalty)
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he has now had time to look further into the subject of the charges made by way of royalty on charts produced by Mr. Albert Close which are more or less copies of Admiralty charts; and whether, in view of the service which these charts render to fishermen, he will consider waiving the royalties and demanding only an acknowledgment to be printed on the charts to the effect that they are published with Admiralty permission?
The royalty charged to Mr. Close in respect of Admiralty charts reproduced by him is purely nominal and, as I stated in reply to the hon. Member last week, I am not prepared to modify the present arrangements.
Is the Financial Secretary aware that Mr. Close can have these charts printed from copies of foreign produced charts which are an exact copy of the Admiralty chart and can have them made without payment of any royalty?
I am not aware of that, and I think it is an entire misrepresentation of the facts.
House of Commons (Refreshment Department)
asked the hon. Member for the Gorton Division, as Chairman of the Kitchen Committee, what arrangements he has made to supply Empire wine and tobacco to Members, as far as possible, to the exclusion of similar foreign articles?
In reply to the hon. Member, no special arrangements have been made to supply only Empire wines and tobacco. The Kitchen Committee endeavour to meet the requirements of all Members, and if they desire to be supplied with wines and tobacco of other than Empire origin the Committee try as far as possible to comply with their request.
Does not the hon. Member think that Members of this House are prepared to make some sacrifice for the sake of Empire?
Will the hon. Member remember Bismarck's dictum that patriotism stops short of the palate?
Can the hon. Member say whether the hon. Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander) prefers Empire white wines to German white wines?
I cannot say what is the preference of the hon. Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander), but I hope that Empire wines will be encouraged.
Blind Persons Act
asked the Minister of Health if, in consequence of the increasing expenditure for schemes incurred under the provisions of Section 2 of the Blind Persons Act, 1920, he will make provision for granting State financial assistance to local authorities?
Financial assistance to the local authorities who incur expenditure on these schemes is provided by means of the consolidated grants payable under the Local Government Act of 1929, and I would remind my hon. Friend that the general Exchequer contribution provided under that Act includes a sum of new money which is intended, inter alia, to provide a contribution towards the development of health services, including the welfare of the blind.
Pre-War Pensioners
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether instructions have been given to all Departments concerned to issue to all pre-War pensioners the revised form of inquiry into means which will not require attestation, and need only be filled up every two years instead of every year; and whether this proce dure is being adopted in the cases of the police, Royal Irish Constabulary, and employés of local authorities?
The revised form applies only to pensioners who have been in receipt of an increase of pension for at least three years. Instructions have been given for its issue to all such pensioners who were in State employment, including the Royal Irish Constabulary, or were employed as teachers. I am still awaiting the views of the Departments concerned as to whether the new form can be issued to police pensioners and other ex-employés of local authorities.
Business of the House
Would the Prime Minister state what business he proposes to take to-morrow?
I wish to make a statement regarding an extra piece of business for to-morrow. With the assent of the House, it is proposed to take the House of Commons (Disqualification) Bill to-morrow, before the Second Reading of the Consolidated Fund Bill. I ought to say that some technical points have been discovered which will
necessitate legislation, and we have been in communication with the representatives of all parties in the House. The Second Reading of the Bill will be moved to-morrow by the Solicitor-General, who will explain in his speech what the Bill covers. It is being introduced, and, I think, will be printed to-day. It is purely a technical matter.
Mr. Speaker, there is still a minute or two left of Question Time. Would it not be possible to permit some of those supplementary questions to be put now?
No, certainly not.
Motion made, and Question put,
"That, notwithstanding anything in Standing Order No. 15, the Report of the Navy Supplementary Estimate, 1930, and of the Navy Excess, 1929, and Business other than the Business of Supply, may be considered this day before Eleven of the clock, that the Reports of Supply of the 17th, 10th, and 11th March, may be taken after Eleven of the clock, and that the Proceedings on Government Business be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[ The Prime Minister. ]
The House divided: Ayes, 259; Noes, 140.
Division No. 203.] AYES. [3.46 p.m. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Clarke, J. S. Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Cluse, W. S. Gray, Milner Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne) Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro') Cocks, Frederick Seymour Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Alpass, J. H. Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.) Ammon, Charles George Compton, Joseph Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Arnott, John Cove, William G. Groves, Thomas E. Attlee, Clement Richard Cowan, D. M. Grundy, Thomas W. Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Cripps, Sir Stafford Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley) Daggar, George Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Barnes, Alfred John Dallas, George Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) Barr, James Dalton, Hugh Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.) Batey, Joseph Davies, D. L. (Pontypridd) Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn) Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Zetland) Bennett, Sir E. N. (Cardiff, Central) Denman, Hon. R. D. Harbord, A. Bennett, William (Battersea, South) Dudgeon, Major G. R. Hardie, George D. Benson, G. Duncan, Charles Hastings, Dr. Somerville Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale) Ede, James Chuter Haycock, A. W. Birkett, W. Norman Edge, Sir William Healy, Cahir Blindell, James Edmunds, J. E. Henderson, Arthur, junr. (Cardiff, S.) Bowen, J. W. Edwards, E. (Morpeth) Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Egan, W. H. Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) Broad, Francis Alfred Elmley, Viscount Herriotts, J. Brockway, A. Fenner England, Colonel A. Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth) Bromfield, William Foot, Isaac Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Brothers, M. Freeman, Peter Hoffman, P. C. Brown, C. W. E. (Notts, Mansfield) Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) Hollins, A. Brown, Ernest (Leith) George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd (Car'vn) Hopkin, Daniel Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire) George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) Burgess, F. O. George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea) Hunter, Dr. Joseph Buxton, C. R. (Yorks, W. R. Elland) Gibson, H. M. (Lancs. Mossley) Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R. Cameron, A. G. Gill, T. H. Isaacs, George Cape, Thomas Glassey, A. E. Jenkins, Sir William Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.) Gossling, A. G. John, William (Rhondda, West) Chater, Daniel Gould, F. Jones, Llewellyn-, F. Church, Major A. G. Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne) Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Morris, Rhys Hopkins Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh) Simmons, C. J. Kelly, W. T. Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.) Simon, E. D. (Manch'ter, Withington) Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.) Sinclair, Sir A. (Caithness) Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Mort, D. L. Sitch, Charles H. Kinley, J. Muff, G. Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Kirkwood, D. Muggeridge, H. T. Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton) Murnin, Hugh Smith, Lees-, H. B. Lang, Gordon Nathan, Major H. L. Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Smith, Tom (Pontefract) Lathan, G. Noel-Buxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N.) Smith, W. R. (Norwich) Law, Albert (Bolton) Oldfield, J. R. Sorensen, R. Law, A. (Rossendale) Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley) Stamford, Thomas W. Lawrence, Susan Owen, Major G. (Carnarvon) Strauss, G. R. Lawson, John James Owen, H. F. (Hereford) Sullivan, J. Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle) Palin, John Henry Sutton, J. E. Leach, W. Paling, Wilfrid Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln) Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern) Palmer, E. T. Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.) Lees, J. Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby) Lewis, T. (Southampton) Perry, S. F. Thurtle, Ernest Lindley, Fred W. Peters, Dr. Sidney John Tillett, Ben Lloyd, C. Ellis Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Tinker, John Joseph Longbottom, A. W. Pole, Major D. G. Tout, W. J. Longden, F. Potts, John S. Townend, A. E. Lowth, Thomas Price, M. P. Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Lunn, William Pybus, Percy John Vaughan, David Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) Ramsay, T. B. Wilson Viant, S. P. MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham) Rathbone, Eleanor Walker, J. MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Wallace, H. W. McElwee, A. Riley, Ben (Dewsbury) Watkins, F. C. McEntee, V. L. Ritson, J. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) MacLaren, Andrew Romeril, H. G. Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah Maclean, Sir Donald (Cornwall, N.) Rosbotham, D. S. T. Wellock, Wilfred Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Rothschild, J. de Welsh, James (Paisley) MacNeill-Weir, L. Rowson, Guy Welsh, James C. (Coatbridge) Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Russell, Richard John (Eddisbury) West, F. R. McShane, John James Salter, Dr. Alfred White, H. G. Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen) Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood) Mander, Geoffrey le M. Samuel, H. Walter (Swansea, West) Williams, David (Swansea, East) Mansfield, W. Sanders, W. S. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) March, S. Sandham, E. Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) Marcus, M. Sawyer, G. F. Wilson, J. (Oldham) Marley, J. Scott, James Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Marshall, Fred Scrymgeour, E. Winterton, G. E. (Leicester, Loughb'gh) Mathers, George Sexton, Sir James Wise, E. F. Matters, L. W. Shakespeare, Geoffrey H. Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff) Messer, Fred Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Young, R. S. (Islington, North) Middleton, G. Sherwood, G. H. Millar, J. D. Shield, George William TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Mills, J. E. Shiels, Dr. Drummond Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr Montague, Frederick Shillaker, J. F. Charleton. Morley, Ralph Shinwell, E.
NOES. Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Christie, J. A. Gower, Sir Robert Albery, Irving James Clydesdale, Marquess of Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l., W.) Colfox, Major William Philip Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Colman, N. C. D. Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Colville, Major D. J. Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Baillie-Hamilton, Hon. Charles W. Conway, Sir W. Martin Gunston, Captain D. W. Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley) Cooper, A. Duff Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet) Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford) Beaumont, M. W. Crichton-Stuart, Lord C. Hammersley, S. S. Bellairs, Commander Carlyon Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Betterton, Sir Henry B. Crookshank, Capt. H. C. Hartington, Marquess of Bevan, S. J. (Holborn) Dalrymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford) Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Bird, Ernest Roy Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Despencer-Robertson, Major J. A. F. Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W. Duckworth, G. A. V. Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. Boyce, Leslie Dugdale, Capt. T. L. Inskip, Sir Thomas Brass, Captain Sir William Eden, Captain Anthony Iveagh, Countess of Briscoe, Richard George Edmondson, Major A. J. Lewis, Oswald (Colchester) Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) Elliot, Major Walter E. Llewellin, Major J. J. Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C. (Berks, Newb'y) Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.) Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey Buchan, John Everard, W. Lindsay Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th) Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T. Falle, Sir Bertram G. Lockwood, Captain J. H. Burton, Colonel H. W. Ferguson, Sir John Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Butler, R. A. Fielden, E. B. Macquisten, F. A. Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) Campbell, E. T. Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Makins, Brigadier-General E. Castle Stewart, Earl of Ganzoni, Sir John Marjoribanks, Edward Cautley, Sir Henry S. Gault, Lieut.-Col. A. Hamilton Meller, R. J. Chapman, Sir S. Glyn, Major R. G. C. Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. Moore, Sir Newton J. (Richmond) Ross, Ronald D. Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F. Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester) Ruggles-Brise, Colonel E. Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A. Muirhead, A. J. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton) Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Salmon, Major I. Thomson, Mitchell-, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld) Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Tinne, J. A. O'Connor, T. J. Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart Titchfield, Major the Marquess of Oman, Sir Charles William C. Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D. Todd, Capt. A. J. O'Neill, Sir H. Savery, S. S. Train, J. Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Peake, Capt. Osbert Skelton, A. N. Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay) Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Smith-Carington, Neville W. Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.) Pownall, Sir Assheton Smithers, Waldron Womersley, W. J. Purbrick, R. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley Rawson, Sir Cooper Southby, Commander A. R. J. Reid, David D. (County Down) Spender-Clay, Colonel H. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Remer, John R. Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur Sir Frederick Thomson and Captain Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Stewart, W. J. (Belfast South) Margesson.
Bills Reported
Mining Industry (Welfare Fund) Bill
Reported, without Amendment, from Standing Committee C.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Minutes of Proceedings to be printed.
Bill, not amended (in the Standing Committee), to be considered upon Thursday.
London and North Eastern Railway Bill
SOUTHERN RAILWAY BILL.
ALDERSHOT GAS, WATEE, AND DISTRICT LIGHTING BILL (changed to "MID-SOUTHERN DISTRICT UTILITY BILL").
Reported, with Amendments; Reports to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Message from the Lords
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to extend the boundaries of the borough of Northampton; and for other purposes." [Northampton Extension Bill [ Lords ].]
And also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to make provision as to the abandonment of the tramways and light railways owned or worked by the Yorkshire (Woollen District) Electric Tramways, Limited, to provide for the running of public service vehicles in substitution therefor; and for other purposes." [Yorkshire (Woollen District) Transport Bill [ Lords ].]
Northampton Extension Bill [ Lords ],
Yorkshire (Woollen District) Transport Bill [ Lords ],
Read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
New Member Sworn
David Lewis Davies, esquire, for County of Glamorgan (Pontypridd Division).
House of Commons (Disqualification) Bill,
"to remove doubts as to the scope of the House of Commons (Disqualification) Act, 1782, and of section four of the House of Commons (Disqualifications) Act, 1801," presented by the Solicitor-General; supported by the Lord Advocate; to be read a Second time Tomorrow, and to be printed. [Bill 113.]
Orders of the Day
Supply
[4TH ALLOTTED DAY.]
REPORT [17TH MARCH].
Resolutions reported,
Air Estimates, 1931
1. "That a number of Air Forces, not exceeding 32,000, all ranks, be maintained for the Service of the United Kingdom at Home and abroad, exclusive of those serving in India (other than Aden), during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1932."
2. "That a sum, not exceeding £3,907,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Expense of the Pay, etc., of His Majesty's Air Force at Home and abroad, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1932."
3. "That a sum, not exceeding £1,790,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Expense of the Works, Buildings, Repairs, and Lands of the Air Force, including Civilian Staff and other Charges connected therewith, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1932."
4. "That a sum, not exceeding £7,672,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Expense of Technical and Warlike Stores of the Air Force (including Experimental and Research Services), which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1932."
5. "That a sum, not exceding £470,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Expense of Civil Aviation, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1932."
First Resolution read a Second time.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
Before we commence this discussion, I should like to say that my Ruling in regard to the Navy Votes the other day appears to have been somewhat misunderstood, because we certainly had a very much wider discussion on Vote A of the Navy Estimates than we ought to have had on Report. It is the practice, as the House knows, to have a very full and wide discussion on Vote A in Committee, but when we come to the Report stage the discussions on the various Votes must be confined entirely to the subject matter of those Votes.
I understand that we are now taking Vote A to start with and that we shall then take all the other Votes in their order, and I presume that we can have a discussion on each of the various Votes—that is, that we are not going to take them together.
Provided that on each Vote the discussion is confined to what is in that Vote.
4.0 p.m.
I wish to make some remarks upon Vote A which deals with the personnel of the Air Force. In the first place, may I say that I am glad to think that the Under-Secretary of State for Air has not reduced these Estimates this year, but that we are giving a little more money than we gave last year for the purposes of the Air Service. I still think that the strength of our Air Force—the number of squadrons in our Air Force—is not sufficient at the present time. When one takes into consideration the number of squadrons in the Air Forces of various European countries, I think it is evident that we in this country are still very much behindhand in the number of our squadrons, and in the number of officers and men in our Air Force. To-day, I would like to ask the Under-Secretary of State one or two questions about the personnel of the Air Force. First of all, does he consider that the strength of the Air Force is sufficient, and that its efficiency is such that we are safe in this country from any air attack? I think that the training of the pilots calls for a certain amount of discussion. I noticed the other day the report of a lecture recently by a very able civilian pilot who has done a lot of night-flying. The lecture was given to the Royal Aeronautical Society, and I want to read a paragraph which has to do with personnel in connection with the training of pilots in the Air Force. This is what Captain Carl Slorman, managing director of the A.B. Aerotransport, Stockholm, said in regard to training for night-flying: I mention that, because I feel that, as far as the Air Force is concerned, the amount of night-flying training is not sufficient at the present time. There are in Europe a great number of night postal services, with the result that in these other countries a large number of airmen are trained in night-flying, which is a special kind of flying, and requires not only special instruction as far as the pilot is concerned, but special kinds of aerodromes and, possibly, special kinds of machines, which are more suitable than those in ordinary use. I do not know whether the Under-Secretary has ever visualised the sort of attack which might be made on this country. I think that if this country is going to be attacked from the air, it will probably be done during the night, and it is for that reason that I want to impress upon the hon. Gentleman the enormous importance of training our pilots in the art of flying at night. I notice in the White Paper, which was issued with the Estimates, on page 5, it is stated:
If we are to have an efficient Air Force personnel, I think it is very necessary that that personnel should be trained in the sort of flying which might be expected in the event of any attack, and that the Air Force should be so equipped with machines, and with necessary aerodromes, lighting and so on, for exercises of that kind to be made. It seems to me a very important matter, and I hope that when the Under-Secretary replies, he will give us an assurance that not only is the Royal Air Force a most efficient force, as I certainly believe it is in the day time, but that it is also capable of dealing with any kind of night attack. We had a little while ago, as the hon. Gentleman will remember, some manoeuvres where the bombing squadrons were able to ge through the defences. Is the Air Force still in a position that a bombing squadron, even in the day time, is able to get through our defences? That, I think, is a question which the hon. Gentleman ought to be able to answer. Are we really an efficient force by night and by day?
This country, I think, is quite suited for the training of our pilots in every kind of flying, certainly in the summer, and I also think that when the Air Force manoeuvres take place, there ought to be joint exercises with the Fleet Air Arm, and also with the anti-aircraft services. I do not know whether that was done during the last Air Force manoeuvres, but, if it was not done, I think it is very necessary that these manoeuvres should combine the Fleet Air Arm and also the ground services, so that we should be able to get our force into a really efficient condition from the point of view of defence. We do not want a great aggressive Air Force, but we want, I am sure, to know that our Air Force, on which we are spending vast sums of money annually, shall be such an efficient force that we in this country and in London, the heart of the Empire, can feel quite comfortable that, in the event of an attack, and especially an attack at night, we shall have sufficient airmen available and trained for the purpose of defending this great city and the country against any sort of attack in the air.
The hon. and gallant Member for Clitheroe (Sir W. Brass) has great knowledge of these matters, but when he talks about the number of pilots who should be trained for night flying for the defence of this country, or of London, surely he knows that it is almost impossible now, with the tremendous heights and speed, to find aircraft at night time or to defend large cities at night from air attack. What he really wants is more pilots for bombing squadrons for counter attacks. It is no use deluding the people of this country that by adding to the number of pilots trained for night flying you can defend this country—
I do not know whether the hon. and gallant Member realises that if we are to be attacked at night by bombing squadrons, it is necessary that we should train our pilots for night flying in bombing squadrons to attack the other countries as well?
That is exactly what I had hoped the hon. Gentleman was going to say when he began his speech, but do not let us delude people by saying that we want more men trained in night flying for defence. You might as well look for a black hat in a dark room when the black hat is not there. It is only by mere chance that you can find aircraft at night. I have done a good deal of seeking at night in a ship at sea in two dimensions only, and it is one of the hardest things in the world to find darkened ships, but when you have three dimensions, with tremendous speeds and heights, it is practically impossible. It is only deluding the public, and I support the view of the Foreign Minister in this matter in recent speeches, in which, with his knowledge and the resources and intelligence at his disposal, he showed the appalling nature of what would happen in war with aircraft attacking cities. I am glad that the right hon. Member for Chelsea (Sir S. Hoare) has taken this honest line also, and in a recent speech In Kent has shown the absolute impossibility of defending the London area from attack from the air at night.
That brings me to the main purpose for which I rose, and that is with regard to the 32,000 men, and the forthcoming Conference next year at Geneva. That is the important thing. We on these benches are used to hearing attacks always coming from the other side upon our Government for not spending enough on armaments, and we have an echo of that, again, in the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Clitheroe. I have given up attacking my Friends on the Front Bench for spending too much on armaments, because I am pinning my faith to what will happen at Geneva next year. May I ask my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State what preparations are being made for the forthcoming conference on disarmament, especially as regards the number of men? The question is very complicated, because the organisation of our Air Force is so different from that of Continental air forces. On the Continent fewer men are shown, but actually far more are available for the use of the respective air forces. The very large French Air Force can draw almost unlimited numbers of conscript soldiers for work on the ground, whereas, owing to our different organisation, everyone is classed as an airman, although he may be a cook, a dental assistant, or the man who looks after the garden of the Air Commander-in-Chief. They all figure in the 32,000. This is a complicated matter, and I do not know what plan my Noble Friend the Air Minister has when he goes to Geneva next year.
Take the question of pay. The Preparatory Commission is at last wound up, and it was one of the finest feats of the Government to wind up that farcical body. We proposed at that commission that there should be a budgetary limitation for air armaments. It was only defeated by one vote, with 13 abstentions, and I understand that it is proposed to argue for budgetary limitation at Geneva again. That will affect us curiously, because in order to attract the right type of man, the pay in our Air Force is good. It is a voluntary service, and you cannot compare the exact expenditure on personnel in this country with a conscript country like France or Italy. I should like to know whether this matter has been considered and what plans are being prepared. In the Debate on the Committee stage, which I unavoidably missed, the right hon. Baronet the Member for Chelsea talked of the one-Power standard. At disarmament conferences so far, especially last year's Naval Conference, the strong Powers have retained their strength, and the other Powers have increased their strength up to that of the strongest Power. I hope that that will not be the case if we attempt to bring about any one-Power standard as the result of the coming Disarmament Conference. I hope that we shall not have to build up to the strongest, but that the strongest will come down to our strength.
If money is to be spent on personnel, I would rather it be spent on airmen than on the other two Services, for you get better value for a trained airman and a trained pilot. I believe we have also the best pilots in the world. We have to go into this Conference next year with a very carefully thought out plan and a good deal of public education beforehand. With our comfortable English habit, everything will close down in August and September, so that there are only six or seven effective months before we are plunged into this tremendously important Conference, which may affect the growth of armaments of 30 or 40 nations and the peace of the world. I hope that the plan will be carefully drawn up in view of our peculiar conditions in this country. I want to assure my hon. Friend that we are pinning our faith to that Conference, and that we all realise the absolute necessity of bringing it to a successful conclusion.
I want to raise a small but important point which I was unable to raise in Committee owing to my having to be in another part of the country. I spoke about it to the Under-Secretary of State, and I hope that he will be able to reply on the subject, although I am afraid that it will be difficult for him to give a satisfactory answer. The particular point to which I refer—about which I spoke on the Army and Navy Estimates—is the shortage of officers in the medical branch. It is a matter that must obviously sooner or later incapacitate the Force if it is allowed to continue. I put a question to the Minister in order to get the actual figures, as I found it difficult to find the proportion of strength to establishment from the Estimates. The figures that he gave show that on the establishment of 210 officers, the deficiency varies from year to year, and that the present figure is 46, or very nearly one quarter of the whole strength of the establishment. The deficiencies are to some extent made good by the engagement of doctors on contract on a civil basis, and short-term officers have been brought in very largely to fill up the gaps. You cannot, however, fill the gaps in a fighting and mobile force by such means—and the Air Force requires great mobility.
The shortage occurs in all three Services, and therefore the conditions are very much the same. The reason for not being able to recruit in the Air Force and in the other forces young medical men who are turned out in considerable numbers every year, is that the conditions are not good enough, as compared with the conditions in the open market, to attract the right men. It is not sufficient simply to reply, as Ministers are inclined to reply, that they have the matter under serious consideration. That has been the statement of every Minister in each of the three Services since the War. One really wants to know what steps are being taken in order to supply the deficiency. There is only one special grievance, as far as I can make out, in the Air Force that does not apply to the other Services. Owing to the nature of the service in the Air Force, it is a rule, which seems to be necessary, that a medical officer should be on duty during all the hours of official flying. Naturally, the pilots and men who go up into the air risking their lives have a right to expect that there will be a medical officer in attendance. Consequently, in some of the smaller stations there have been grievances that the medical officers have not been abe to get a continuous period of leave of 48 hours more than once a month.
That is a serious objection to a young medical man after finishing his six years of gruelling service in the hospitals and of training at his own expense. It must be remembered that only one out of four who start to qualify in medicine eventually pass through, three out of four failing by the way. When he has eventually qualified, therefore, a young man naturally wants to get the best terms he can. Some people say that the spirit has gone out of the profession because the men will not go abroad. That is not the case, because the Colonial Medical Service has gone ahead in the most extraordinary way, and has enlisted some 2,000 medical men since the War. That Service offers better remuneration and a freer life. The Fighting Services cannot offer that freer life. I understand that the heads of the three Services are considering the appointment of an interdepartmental committee to consider the subject. I shall be glad to know whether this has taken shape, and whether the committee has been formed; if not, when will it be formed?
Does not this come under Vote 5?
No, under Vote A, which deals with numbers. I hope that the Under-Secretary will be able to explain what will be the composition of this committee, and how soon it will get to work and report. In 1925 this matter was settled by an interdepartmental committee known as the Warren Fisher Committee. The result at the time was a certain enlargement of the Service and an improvement of conditions, which were supposed to be satisfactory. They have not, however, been found satisfactory, and the same matter has now to be gone into again. It is not merely, as has been suggested, a question of pay. In fact, it is doubtful whether an improvement in the conditions of pay would ever solve the difficulty. There are other considerations. Take, for instance, a competing service—the Indian Medical Service—which until quite recently had been able to get the pick of the young men. They were able to enlist young men right up to the time of the Round-Table Conference, and now the enlistment has suddenly failed. It would be useful to know their experience, and I hope that the proposed committee will enlarge their vision so as to take the experience of the Colonial and Indian Medical Services in order to see in what way they can help to attract young men into the Fighting Services.
The most important competition comes from the rapidly enlarging and improving conditions in municipal service at home. These are services to which the State contributes very largely. It is a delicate question as between the local authorities and the State, but as the State has a very large interest, because it makes payments towards the salaries of these medical officers, it ought to be able to claim power in the appointments. If the State were to combine its rights and re- sponsibilities in providing the officers for the Fighting Services with its rights and responsibilities on the civil side, it would be able to offer a complete career to young medical officers. That would enable the State to have all the men it wants for all the different services. By dealing with each service in a watertight compartment, however, the State cannot provide such a career.
The difficulties of the Air Force in this matter are very serious. It cannot provide a career in the 210 jobs which it has to give. While the officers are still young, they are turned adrift. The State should combine all the services so as to be able to offer them a career. That alone will attract young medical men into the service, and enable the Minister every year to have the health of the men at home and abroad looked after.
My hon. and gallanl Friend the Member for St. Albans (Lieut.-Colonel Fremantle) has raised a very important question. I will not go into his argument in any detail because, as you, Mr. Speaker, said, a good deal of what he referred to comes under Vote 5, but at the same time it would be interesting to hear from the Under-Secretary of State what action has been taken as a result of the various inquiries into the three-Service medical services. I seem to remember that a few years ago the pay of the Air Force medical service was improved, and I should like to know how far that has reacted upon the shortage to which my hon. and gallant Friend has drawn attention. I rose principally to call attention to one or two other features of this Vote. It deals with two very important questions, first of all, the economy in the use of man-power in the Air Force, and, secondly, the bigger question of the economy of the use of one of the fighting Services in our general system of defence.
As to the first question, it is satisfactory to note that although the Air Force is steadily increasing in strength from year to year the number of men and officers does not tend to increase, but, rather, to decrease. I have not the figures with me, but I think I am right in saying that the number of 32,000 officers and men has remained constant, or nearly constant, for a number of years, although during those years the number of the squadrons of the Air Force has greatly increased. That goes to show that, with a wider experience and greater knowledge, a better use is being made of the man-power, and that to-day we can accomplish with 32,000 officers and men what we required a much larger number to undertake five or 10 years ago. It seems to me that as the training of the men in the defence Services becomes more complicated, and therefore more expensive, so we must be more and more economical in the actual number of men we use in the Services. I look forward to the Vote for man-power in all three Services tending not to increase in relation to the increased fighting powers of the Services, but to decrease. In a mechanised age such as the present we expect to see the technical and the materiel side of the three forces increased, while the human side, the manpower side, should tend to decrease.
The second question raised by the Vote is the wide question of whether we are really making the best use of our manpower in the Air Force in its relation to the two other Services. In this Debate last year I raised the question of the division of labour between the three fighting Services. I pointed to several instances in which it seemed to me that the use of air force would be more economical than the use of military force or naval force. I do not to-day propose to go again into that somewhat complicated and controversial question. As a result of that Debate, and of another Debate in another place, the Government undertook to make a detailed and technical inquiry into the whole problem. Twelve months have elapsed, and I think we should like to have a progress report of that inquiry.
In the instances where we have made the experiment of using this new and mobile power in place of the older and slower forces great economies have been made in the field of Imperial defence. The most recent instance of that is seen at Aden. It would be interesting to know what has been the experience of air control in the territory of Aden during the past 12 months. The Empire was faced there with a very difficult problem. There we have a vast and almost inaccessible country, with nomad tribes from time to time making attacks, and a not inconsiderable garrison was tied up in the fortress of Aden. When air power was substituted for these older forms of defence there was an immediate economy in expense and in man power, and, so far as I know, the territory of Aden has enjoyed a much more stable peace than ever before in its history.
There is another field about which it would be interesting for the House to have any information which the Under-Secretary of State may have in his possession, and that is the field of the North-West Frontier of India, where the same problem in a different form has also arisen. It may be that the time has not yet come when he can give us a detailed account of the part the Air Force took in the operations on the North-West Frontier during the past 12 months. A great many conflicting statements have been made on the subject, and it is in the interests of this better division of labour between the three fighting Services that the House should be given information. If it shows that a greater use of the Air Force would be more economical and more efficient than the present system, let us try to have a more general use of the Air Force and so make a saving, if, on the other hand, the case has gone against the use of air power, let us face the facts and not go on talking in the terms of a controversy when that controversy may already have been decided.
Then there is another question raised by this Vote on which I would like to ask for a Progress report. Half the officers in the Air Force are engaged on permanent commissions and the other half on what are known as short-service commissions, that is, commissions that last only for a limited number of years, after which those officers go on to the reserve and return to private life. In the past many attacks have been made upon this short-service system, and it very often fell to me to defend it when I was in office. I defended the system upon the very obvious ground that in a Service like the Air Service the number of senior posts would always be limited, and, therefore, it was important not to have an accumulation of junior officers or officers of medium rank for whom there was no permanent future in the Service. I think that was a very sound line of defence; but it needed something else to make it really unassailable, and that something else was this: that because the Air Ministry, acting as an employer, was turning these young officers out on to the world at the age of 24, 25 or 26, or whatever age it may be, it was under an obligation to do everything in its power to find them permanent jobs in the world outside.
An organisation was set up, in the Air Ministry, rather on the lines of the Appointments Board at Oxford and Cambridge Universities, to try to find them permanent posts when their commissions came to an end. Last year I asked the Under-Secretary of State how this Appointments Board was working, and whether it was true that a very large number of these young men were found permanent posts outside. This is one of the most vital questions connected with the employment of officers and men in the Air Force and I make no apology for putting this question again. Can the Under-Secretary tell us whether the excellent record he reported last year as to the number of jobs being found for these young men is being maintained? I am inclined to think that if the Air Ministry can really succeed in finding posts for these young men it will not only be doing a very valuable work in itself but setting a very valuable example to the two senior Services.
One of the most serious drawbacks to the Army and the Navy at the present time is the uncertainty of a future career for a man when he reaches what I may call a medium rank in those Services. The man who becomes a captain or junior major in the Army, or who becomes a commander in the Navy, may very likely be told that there is no promotion for him, that although his commission was, in theory at any rate, a permanent one, he must leave the Service to which he has devoted the best years of his life. I have always thought that if the Ministry could show to public opinion, and more particularly to the older Services, that the short-service system was working satisfactorily, there would be a great deal to be said for following the example of the Air Force and adopting some such system in the two senior Services. There is a great deal to be said in the modern world for a system under which a young man does a limited number of years in one of the Fighting Services, with all its appeal to his spirit of enterprise, and then comes back, after a valuable training, and a certain knowledge of the world, to some post found for him in civil life. These are conditions which should appeal to the military and civilian worlds. I am anxious to see this system succeed conspicuously in the Air Force as I believe it is a better plan than that of giving a young man a commission that is in theory permanent but that in actual practice is terminated when he is between 30 and 40. I feel sure that when once the success of the short service system is assured, it will prove a great incentive for young men to join the service.
There is only one further question I wish to raise, and it is connected with the Appropriations-in-Aid. I should like to know from the Under-Secretary of State whether the Government of India has, in these Appropriations-in-Aid, made the capitation grant for the training of the Air Force personnel in India for which it is under an obligation to the British Government. The House may remember that for many years past there have been disputes and discussions between Whitehall and the Government of India as to the amount the Government of India should pay in capitation grants for the training of the Air Force and Army personnel in India. Year after year this controversy has broken out again. I do not know whether any sum is included in these Appropriations-in-Aid for a debt which is owed by the Government of India. It has always seemed to me—I do not pretend to know the merits of the Army case—that the case for the capitation grant for the Air Force in India was unanswerable, and I believe that any impartial tribunal could come to no other conclusion than that the Government of India is paying much too little for the training of the Air Force personnel.
I know that other difficulties have entered into the controversy and that this smaller question has been swept up in the bigger Indian constitutional question. At the same time, it is very unsatisfactory that year after year this question should not be settled, and that year by year, as a result, there should be an element of uncertainty introduced into these items of the Estimate. The Air Ministry should know, first of all, whether it is going to get anything under this heading; and, secondly, what it is going to get. I should be obliged if the Under-Secretary of State for Air could tell us the present state of affairs. I would like to know if any Appropriations-in-Aid are included in this sum, and, if not, when it is likely that this difficult and complicated question will receive a settlement that will enable the Air Minister to tell us actually that its rightful debts will be paid for by the Government of India. Those are the questions I wish to raise on this Vote. I would like to say to the Under-Secretary that we were very sorry to hear that he was ill yesterday, and we are glad to see him in his place to-day.
I wish to put one or two questions to the Under-Secretary of State for Air. Is he quite satisfied with the training which is now being given to the Air officers and the flying apparatus with which they are supplied? More particularly, I would like to ask if the hon. Gentleman is satisfied with the apparatus used for flying in the dark. This is a most important question, and I would like to receive from the hon. Gentleman an assurance that the Air Force is equipped with the very latest instruments for training in night-flying. I notice that since our last Debate two of our air pilots have lost their lives through their machines catching fire. I would like to know whether those particular machines were fitted with fire-proof petrol tanks. That is a very important point. We ought not to lose so many pilots through their machines catching fire. Perhaps the hon. Member will give me some assurance that every effort is made to supply the airmen with the latest up-to-date apparatus. When the Fleet was manoeuvring at Malta I understood that three flying boats were going to be sent there. I do not know whether they actually went out, but I should like to ask whether they were provided with proper facilities—
That question cannot arise on this Vote.
I will leave that point. With regard to the personnel of the airships which is likely to be discharged, I would like to ask if the Ministry is going to keep that personnel employed for further experiments. I think we ought to know that. We have not yet had a report of the R101 disaster, and I should like to know how matters stand with regard to keeping the airship personnel in employment. I should also like to know when we are likely to receive the report of the R101 disaster.
I do not know what the hon. and gallant Member for Clitheroe (Sir W. Brass) expects me to say in answer to his question as to whether the training of the Air Force is efficient. Naturally, my answer must be in the affirmative. I should not be in my present position unless I was prepared to defend the efficiency of the Air Force. A special point was raised by the hon. and gallant Member for Clitheroe in regard to night-flying. He asked whether night-flying manoeuvres are part of the training of Royal Air Force personnel, and whether it is not a fact that there is more attention paid to night-flying among the Air Forces of other countries. I think it is rather the other way about. With regard to the blind-flying experiments, experience in blind-flying is primarily a question of adverse weather. It is a fact that the up-to-date bombing machines during the intensive activities of August last were able to penetrate the defence. It is also true to say that in the defensive exercises referred to the old types of defensive aircraft were used, so that the comparison is not quite appropriate, especially in view of the fact that the Air Force, as I have already explained, is being fitted with the very latest type of bombing and defensive aircraft. I mentioned one particular type for the defence of London. I do not know that I altogether agree with the conclusions of the hon. and gallant Member for Clitheroe as to the inefficiency of our defence, or what he has said in regard to our defence against aggression. The hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) spoke of the impossibility of defending this country by night, but I think it is possible to do a great deal in regard to defence even under the conditions of night attacks. That aspect of things constitutes a very considerable amount of the training of the Royal Air Force at the present time.
Reference has been made to the coming Conference at Geneva, and I have been asked whether the Air Ministry have a carefully thought-out plan to be discussed at the Conference with regard to question of parity. Of course, that raises a question of Government policy, and it would be rather premature to have any discussion of that matter upon the Estimates. All questions of that character are subjects more appropriate for discussion on the Foreign Office Vote.
Is the Minister in a position to say if the Government are continuing the policy of asking for budgetary limitation of air material at the forthcoming Disarmament Conference?
5.0 p.m.
That is just one of the questions which I should prefer my hon. and gallant Friend would put to the Foreign Secretary or to the Prime Minister. It is a much larger question that I would care to attempt to answer. The hon. and gallant Member for St. Albans (Lieut.-Colonel Fremantle) raised the same question on this Vote which he has already raised in connection with the Admiralty and the War Office Estimates, namely, the question of the deficiency of regular medical officers. Although it is perfectly true that the number of regular officers available is not up to establishment and that there is a considerable deficiency, yet it is not true that there is a deficiency of actual medical service in the Royal Air Force. There is no difficulty with regard to the service, because the deficiency of regular medical officers is in a large part at any rate remedied by the employment of contract officers on both a commissioned and a civilian basis. The subject is being referred to an interdepartmental committee, but I am not able at present to state the composition of that committee. It is being formed, and it will get down to the discussion of the subject as quickly as possible. Recruitment of young medical officers from the Dominions and the Colonies is under consideration. The Air Force policy has been to recruit officers in the first instance on a short service basis.
I am not altogether ready to agree with the serious statements made by the hon. and gallant Member with regard to the future of medical officers in the Air Force. The policy has been justified from many angles. Those who go out of the service after the termination of their short service commission do so with a substantial gratuity, and those who remain became permanent officers who have their careers as permanent officers in front of them. Vacancies for permanent commissions are filled by selection from among the short service officers recruited under the policy adopted in the first instance of recruiting on a short service basis. Regular medical officers are supplemented by contract service officers on a commissioned or a civilian basis, and if we take this into account, the deficiency, compared with the establishment of regular medical officers, is substantially reduced.
To what extent is it reduced?
I replied to a question by the hon. and gallant Member a day or two ago, and the reduction is very considerable. I have not the figures actually in my hand, but it makes the problem considerably less serious than would be suggested by the difference between regular medical officers and establishment figures.
The right hon. Baronet the Member for Chelsea (Sir S. Hoare) asked me a number of questions, including that of a substitution of the air arm for other forces, and he wanted to know how far the policy of substitution during the past year has been justified in Aden. The conditions in the Aden Protectorate during the last year have been peaceful, and although there have been instances of a number of mild disturbances between certain tribes, prompt air action in the nature of demonstration patrols over tribal areas have been sufficient to restore order in those cases, and on no occasion have those tribal disturbances assumed a very serious character. On this point about Aden, I would like to mention the fact that a chiefs' conference met during the year, in December, and mutual discussions took place on matters affecting frontier intelligence, public security, and co-operation between the tribes to resist external aggression. Generally, the condition of Aden has been one of satisfactory peace, and the work of the Royal Air Force has, I think, justified itself in the same way that I was fortunately able to say last year.
With regard to the North West Frontier the right hon. Baronet will not expect me to give him the complete story of the work of the Royal Air Force during the disturbances there, but there were more than 5,000 hours flown in attacks by the Royal Air Force during those operations, and they were conducted with skill, determination, and with all those qualities that I think the House can expect from a Force such as the Royal Air Force. Again, although I do not wish for a moment to enter into controversial discussion with regard to the question of substituting one arm for another, in that particular area I think the work of the Air Force has been definitely justified by the results. I am asked by the right hon. Baronet a question as to employment of short service officers on leaving—
Before he deals with that question, could the hon. Gentleman say anything about the inquiry which the Government undertook to make 12 months ago? Has that inquiry been sitting, and when is it likely to bring its discussions to a termination?
No, I cannot make any report upon conclusions having been reached upon the subject. It is, as the right hon. Baronet knows, a very big subject. I remember his speech last year on the matter, and it involves many considerations of great difficulty, and no conclusions at any rate have been reached at present. The matter is under consideration, and that, I think, is all that I can say on the question at the moment.
With regard to the question of employment on leaving the Service, I am asked to report the position this year, and I think the report will prove satisfactory to the House. The Air Force Officers' Employment Association was formed in November, 1927, to assist short service officers in their efforts to find civil employment on the termination of their five years' commission. The number of such officers leaving the Service is about 150 a year. Of these, some 20 or 30 find employment through their own efforts. The association found posts for 90 officers in 1928, for 107 during 1929, and for 102 during 1930. At the end of the year 1930, 36 remained to be placed; and of these, 13 were found appointments during January of this year, and two found posts for themselves. Of the 102 officers who were found employment last year, 40 took posts in what may be termed "civil avia- tion," as pilots, instructors, or managers in connection with flying clubs and so forth; 24 entered the employment of Home or Colonial Government Departments, and 38 entered industrial firms not connected with aviation. The association is at present in touch with nearly 150 firms, and it is hoped that during the coming year that number will be considerably added to.
The question of the Indian capitation grant is one that has not yet been settled, but that is a matter which affects more than one Department, and is not solely an Air Force matter, and I am afraid that I must leave the question there, except to point out that the matter has to do with Vote I rather than Vote A, and that particulars will be found upon pages 20 and 21 of the Estimates.
Is there anything with regard to India in this Vote?
Yes. On Vote I, pages 20 and 21, the right hon. Gentleman will find that it gives the amount under Appropriations-in-Aid. The hon. and gallant Member for Hertford (Rear-Admiral Sueter) raised a question which I am afraid is hardy a question which comes under Vote A, but on the appropriate Vote I will deal with it. I think I have dealt with most of the questions which have been raised, but if there is any point that I have neglected, I shall be happy to do my best to answer it if I can.
Question, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution," put, and agreed to.
Second Resolution agreed to.
Third Resolution read a Second time.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
There is just one point that I wish to raise upon this Vote, and it is in connection with the new Cadet College at Cranwell. The Under-Secretary of State pointed out last Tuesday that a sum of £90,000 was going to be defrayed this year out of the general total of £299,550. That is certainly a substantial sum, but the need for the contribution to the new college is very urgent indeed. I should like to point out that cadets are still living in wartime hutments under conditions which are vastly inferior to the cadet colleges of the other Services, and if the result achieved by the cadets and by those responsible for their work has not suffered from the conditions under which they have had to carry it out, it is entirely thanks to the zeal and good will of all concerned.
It is unnecessary to point out how important Cranwell is to the Royal Air Force. We know that the provision of permanent buildings is always an expensive and usually a slow proceeding. The importance of these buildings is obvious, and I think it is reasonable to ask that a special effort should be made to expedite them. I gather that the £90,000 to which he referred, or the greater part of it, has already been spent upon excavations and draining. That does not look as if progress is going to be very rapid during the coming year, and I hope that it is not going to be held up through lack of money. I feel that every effort ought to be made to hurry it on as soon as possible, and I should very much like the Under-Secretary of State to tell me, if he can, what actually is considered, as far as the work is concerned, for this coming year, and whether the possibility of expediting completion has been considered. I feel sure that the House would like to know a little more in detail what is the actual programme of work which is contemplated during the coming year and also whether the anticipated programme is being maintained. It is rather disappointing to hear that the college will not be completed before 1933. As far as I can remember, the original intention was that it should be completed in 1932, and I should very much like the hon. Member to tell me whether it is proposed that the college shall be completed in the early part of 1933 or only at the end of that year.
I am very glad to see that substantial sums are being spent on Biggin Hill and on Gosport. In both these places reconstruction is urgently needed, and in these days, when so much money is being spent on a variety of construction works which are in reality relief works, it seems natural that work which is so urgently needed for a defence Service should be treated with a certain amount of generosity. I feel that the whole of this particular Vote might have been treated with greater generosity and that, if that had been done, it would have been an advantage both to the Service and to the country.
I should like to ask one or two questions on this Vote. The first is with regard to a matter which was touched upon by my right hon. Friend the Member for Hythe (Sir P. Sassoon), namely, the matter of War-time huts, not, however, in connection with the Royal Air Force Cadet College, but with regard to their use as married quarters for airmen and non-commissioned officers. I should like the Under-Secretary to tell us at how many stations non-commissioned officers and men are still existing in wooden War-time married quarters or houses used for that purpose; and I should like information particularly with regard to one station, in which, naturally, I am especially interested, it being in my own constituency, namely, the Royal Air Force station at Manston, where men are living with their families in these Wartime houses. About a year ago, by means of questions in this House, I raised the question of the accommodation of these families, and I was given to understand that, when the bombing squadron which was then stationed at Manston had left, the situation would be so eased that this state of affairs would no longer exist. That bombing squadron left some months ago, but these conditions still exist, and I should like to know how long these men and women, who are my constituents, are to continue to live in these wooden huts, while all around, in other parts of the country, great buildings are being raised to house the aeroplanes which these men serve.
Another point that I should like to reinforce is in connection with the college of which my right hon. Friend the Member for Hythe has just spoken. I can remember at Cranwell, in 1920, when the college was first started, and when I happened to be stationed there, the glorious dream of the new college which was about to be built, always next year. In 1921, I remember the ground being pegged out, and flags being put where the new college was to be, to which the cadets and instructors looked forward with so much hope. Something like 10 years have passed, and no doubt those dreams are still dreamed by those who are engaged in their duties at the cadet college. They may see a little more advance that they saw in 1920, but, at the present rate of progress, I calculate that the college will be ready somewhere about 1936. Can the Under-Secretary give us a definite date by which he anticipates this college will be completed, according to the plans of work to be put in hand this year, next year and so on, so that we in this House, and those who are interested in this subject in particular, can have some certain knowledge about it?
The only other point that I wish to raise is with regard to Pembroke. I see that a certain sum is to be spent for the accommodation of flying boats at Pembroke. We on this side of the House are rather fearsome about Pembroke, and what the Government may intend to do with the dockyard. One always fears that one day, now that the Air Force have taken over Pembroke, there may be some form of production of aircraft like the Royal Dockyards—a thing which I trust will never come about in this country. May we know from the Under-Secretary what sum in total it is intended shall be spent at Pembroke in the years to come, and for what purpose? Is Pembroke to be a definite squadron station, is it to be an overhaul base, or is it to be a constructional base? These are matters about which we should like to have some knowledge, and I shall be very much obliged if the Under-Secretary, when he replies, will give me the information for which I have asked.
I should like to ask whether there are any quarters at Gibraltar. We established a station there about 1915, early in the War, but I do not know whether it was disbanded or not. A station there would be very useful for flying boats working with the Fleet. They cannot do very much, in the bad weather that you get off Gibraltar, unless you have a proper shelter to run into after landing on the water. I hope that my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Thanet (Captain Balfour) will not oppose the development of Pembroke, because it is one of the finest stations that you could possibly have as an air station for hunting submarines. We ought to develop it to the very utmost, and I hope that the Under-Secretary will bear that question in mind, and will not allow anyone to retard the progress of development there.
With regard to Cranwell, the buildings will be ready for occupation about the middle of 1933—during the summer. The hope on the part of everyone concerned is that the work will proceed rapidly, and that this estimated time will be adhered to. I saw the work some time ago myself, and it is far enough advanced to enable one to get, with the aid of the diagrams available, a very fair picture of what the building is going to be. It will be a credit to everyone at Cranwell and to the Air Force generally. The hon. and gallant Member for Thanet (Captain Balfour) asked about Manston and the accommodation there. About 1,000 men are accommodated in concrete huts. These huts, which are of wartime construction, are of a good type, and have been reconditioned, and it is not proposed, at any rate for the present, to replace them.
If I might interrupt the hon. Gentleman, I was not speaking of the single men in these concrete huts, of which I am fully aware, but was referring to the married quarters, which consist of wooden houses just slightly lifted off the ground on concrete pillars at the eastern side of the aerodrome as you approach it from Ramsgate. I think the hon. Gentleman has been there.
I thought that the hon. and gallant Member's question was with regard to concrete huts. I will look personally into the point that he has raised, and will let him know with regard to it. So far as Pembroke is concerned, I can give the particulars asked for. The number that will be working on the site during the preparation of the air base at Pembroke will be 100 as a maximum, and there will be a total maximum employment altogether of about 150. Work will be started in September of this year, and will run on until September, 1933. The total cost, as will be seen from the Estimates, will be £107,000, of which £25,000 will be spent on heavy steelwork, and the remainder on building work. A flying boat squadron will come from Felixstowe to Pembroke as soon as the base is ready to receive it, and, when the base is finished, the works and buildings permanent staff will consist of from 30 to 35 civilians, while in addition there will be about 14 other civilians employed as cooks, labourers and waiters. I may add, with regard to Gibraltar, that there are no quarters there at present.
Question, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution," put, and agreed to.
Fourth Resolution read a Second time.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
I should like to raise, on this Vote, one or two points which have not yet been referred to in the Debate, and on which I am sure the House will require some information. I refer to the vote of £100,000 which appears in the Estimate for the Schneider Trophy Contest. I should like to say at the outset how very much relieved those of us who are interested in air development in this country are that it has been at last decided that this race shall be held, and I am also very glad to know that it has been decided that the course shall be the same as it was on the last occasion. I say that, not because the course happens to be in a part of the country in which I am particularly interested, but because I feel convinced that it is not possible to find a better course in any other part of the country.
The point that I want to raise is as to what is to become of the machines which will be used in the race this year, after the race is finished. I think, also, that the Government and this House would be failing in their duty if they did not put on record their appreciation of the very generous, public-spirited and patriotic action of Lady Houston in providing the sum of £100,000 referred to in this Estimate, without which the race could not have been held. The House will, naturally, require some information as to what is to happen to the machines engaged in the race. Are they to be bought outright at the outset, and are they to be held after the race in the possession of the Royal Air Force, or are they to be handed over to Lady Houston or to the Royal Aero Club?
Another question that I want to ask is as to whether any accounts are to be rendered with regard to this race. That is a very important question, and it is sure to be asked later on if the answer is not given now. A further question is as to how many machines the Government intend to loan for this race, and whether any new machines are to be entered as well as the old machines that were used last time. I should also like to refer to the item of £59,000 for Airship Development. I think the House would like to know for what purpose that money is to be expended. We have been informed that the question of airship development has been abandoned by the Government, and, if that be the case, one wonders why there should be this very large expenditure on maintaining an airship base at the present time. I am sure that these are points on which the House will desire information, and I shall be very grateful if the Under-Secretary will supply it.
I notice that in this Vote there is a sum of £68,000 for reorganisation of the Royal Aircraft Establishment, and I think we should like to know exactly how the Royal Aircraft Establishment at Farnborough is being reorganised, and why it is necessary that it should have £5,000 more this year than it had last year. The former Under-Secretary of State for Air was always trying to get the expenditure at Farnborough down a little, and I hope that the present Air Minister will do the same, and will not allow the expenditure on Farnborough to creep up. We ought always to ask what we get out of Farnborough for the large amount of money that it takes. There is an item for a high speed catapult—£8,000. Could the hon. Gentleman tell us exactly what that is for, and what the experiments are going to lead to, and whether they are carrying out any experiments with the auto-gyro? If that was a success, it would be most useful for rising from ships, and we should like to know whether that has been looked into.
I agree with the hon. and gallant Gentleman about the auto-gyro. I had a flight in one a fortnight ago, and it is a wonderful machine. It could land in Palace Yard and could certainly get up off the Horse Guards Parade. We shall no doubt hear whether my hon. Friend has gone into it for ship use. The object of a high-speed catapult is to use a catapult at high speed for throwing an aeroplane in the air at high velocity. The hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for the Isle of Wight (Captain P. Macdonald) referred to the Schneider Cup Race. I am very sorry it is not being flown in the north of England so that the people there could have a chance of seeing it. If I were arranging the matter, I would have it over the Humber. At times you get a very bad swell in the Solent which is most dangerous for seaplanes, whereas you do not get a swell in the Humber but only a chop. However, it is taking place on 12th September, and I hope that we shall win it and that the cup will be ours for ever. I am very glad it is taking place, though I do not join in the strictures on my hon. Friend. I am sure the Air Ministry will be very careful indeed with regard to accounts and that no more will be put upon the accounts of Lady Houston, whose patriotic and public-spirited action we all admire, than is absolutely necessary. My hon. Friend would be no party to anything of the sort and Lord Amulree will insist on the most jealous accounts, so that this lady will have no call for grievance at all and we can all feel grateful to her and she can feel grateful to the Air Ministry as well.
This Vote includes research, and I think rather more money ought to be spent on research into civil aviation. I should like to ask whether we are carrying out research in regard to fast air mail machines. So far, almost the whole of the Debate has dealt with preparations for war. The only break has been the Schneider Cup. We have dealt with hunting submarines, night bombing, the defence of London—[HON. MEMBERS: "Married quarters"]—married quarters for fighting men. Civil aviation is a far more interesting side of it and is of immense importance to the country—a weapon of peace and not of war.
Civil aviation comes on the next Vote.
I was dealing with research. I wish to ask whether research is being under taken to discover a better type of fast air mail carrier, especially for night flying. That would be a most useful line of research and would be of great assistance to the British aircraft industry.
I wish to raise, first, the matter of Air Ministry policy as regards the acquisition of its equipment. I do so with considerable diffidence, because, as I have told the House before, I am concerned indirectly with the aircraft industry, and it is only right that the House should know it. The Air Ministry could purchase, and the public could obtain the benefit of such purchases, at a lower price if we got away from what I will call the Whitehall method of acquiring stores as and when required, always at short notice, always with a great rush of orders and nothing afterwards for a long period. We should do better to get down to a more businesslike basis of a three or a five-year plan. I am not alone in advocating this course of action. There was in the United States a Senate Commission into the question of the aircraft industry being put on a sound and satisfactory basis, primarily from the Government point of view, and, secondly, from the point of view of national insurance, for having a healthy and sound industry and a healthy and sound design staff. Design staffs are the heart of the industry, and the heart of our national security as far as the air is concerned. The findings of that Commission were such that the American industry was put on a spread-over plan and the Ministry requirements were forecast for, I think, five years ahead. That period is now coming to an end and the American Government has been able to acquire aircraft, and civilian aircraft has been turned out alongside, at a cheaper price and with greater security than exists in this country.
I have been at various times very much up against the Royal Aircraft Establishment at Farnborough, but one must not let one's personal prejudice run away with one, and, undoubtedly, it has done very great service to the aircraft industry and to aviation in general, both civilian and service, and as long as the eagle eye of the House is concentrated year by year on it it will never be allowed to get out of size as regards personnel. I hope the Under-Secretary will give us an assurance that there will be greater dissemination of knowledge in the future from the Technical Research Department to aircraft firms engaged in civil and service production of machines. The Royal Aircraft Establishment, by virtue of money voted by this House, has facilities which no single unit of the aircart industry can possibly afford to put down. To mention two possible lines of development, there is the greater use of wind tunnels and oscillation crank shaft instruments. If the results of experiment could be circulated with greater frequency and greater detail than at present, and if facilities could be put at the disposal of firms rather more than occurs at present, it would be of commercial advantage to the country. If we could use the Royal Aircraft Establishment and have closer touch with it in the future than we have had in the past, I do not think there would be many critics left of the establishment.
The next point I wish to raise is the appropriate civilian staff that is necessary for the retention of the civil aircraft testing apparatus and the civil aircraft testing routine at Martlesham. I have raised before, by questions and in Debate, the very incongruous position in which civil aircraft is placed. If the builders of great liners and private yachts had to send their liners for carrying passengers, or their yachts, to Portsmouth to be manned by naval crews under the direction of the Commander-in-Chief, to go up and down the Solent, there would not be many people buying yachts and laying down liners. I know that civil aircraft testing is comparatively in its infancy, and safeguards are necessary for the good of the public, but how long is this going to last? If we go along the lines we have laid down we are liable, with our national conservatism, to find ourselves so grooved in that we shall never be able to adapt ourselves to the modern conditions which the world will demand one day. The certificate of air-worthiness problem is one on which the Ministry have set up a joint committee consisting of British aircraft constructors and Air Ministry representatives. How many sittings has this committee had? When is it expected to report, and is an interim report expected? And have the Air Ministry bound themselves in any way to act upon that report? Those are reasonable questions, and I am sure we shall get the courteous answer we always get. With regard to research in general, I do not wish to go into civil aviation, but I should like to counter to some extent the complaint of the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Central Hull (Lieut.- Commander Kenworthy) of the inadequacy of research for civil aviation.
I was not complaining. I was only asking for information.
I think it is all right, because the same research does, very nearly up to the production of the completed aircraft, for both civil and service. It is all research into the problems of the air and aero-dynamical calculations, and whether a machine is to carry a load of 18,000 lbs of civilian freight or 10,000 lbs. of other stores perhaps not so pleasant, does not matter. The problem is the same. I should like to see this research carried on in the future as it is at present, not diverted as regards greater expenditure for seeing if you can make more comfortable upholstery or better travelling accommodation, but kept to the fundamental problems of aircraft which are common alike to service and civil.
There is one more question with regard to the South Kensington laboratory of the Air Ministry. I gather that rents are high. I do not know where the laboratory is located, but it seems a peculiar institution to have at South Kensington. It may be that it is Crown property. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will tell us that? Why should the Air Ministry run a separate laboratory from those it has already got at its disposal both at Farnborough and in other areas around London? There may be ample justification for it—there probably is in normal times—but in these times we have to look at every penny, and that seems to be a point upon which the House should have some enlightenment from the Ministry when the House is scrutinising the Estimates of moneys to be spent by the Ministry.
I have already commented in general terms upon the very good value which the nation has got out of the auxiliary Air Force squadrons. The same line has been taken by several hon. Members in this House. It is a point which cannot be too strongly emphasised, and therefore I make no apology for referring to it again to-day. These auxiliary squadrons are a source of efficiency and economy to the Air Ministry. It has been pointed out that the cost of an auxiliary squadron is about half that of a regular squadron, whereas the value of the auxiliary squadron to the nation is almost as great as that of a regular squadron. Therefore, I feel that greater preference should be given to auxiliary squadrons in these days when money is so hard to come by. The matter does not remain, however, at the point at which an auxiliary squadron can approximately do the work of a regular squadron. There is the added educational effect upon the nation of air mindedness. Every member of an auxiliary squadron is, in fact, a recruiting sergeant spreading airmindedness among an ever-increasing section of the general public.
Do I understand the right hon. Gentleman to say that auxiliary squadrons are almost as efficient as regular squadrons, and at half the cost?
That is my view, which is shared by a great many people. The Secretary of State, in the White Paper, said that the auxiliary squadrons had taken part with regular units in the air exercises and not only had taken part, but had been a a level with the best work which had been carried out.
There is something wrong, then, with the Air Service.
The auxiliary squadrons are so good. The net increase for auxiliary squadrons is £8,000 this year, and it is a niggardly encouragement to this very admirable arm of the Air Service. I feel that £80,000 would not in any way have been too much. I am very anxious, as I have said before, that an experiment should be inaugurated of an auxiliary squadron of flying boats. I have referred to this matter on several occasions, and I shall go on referring to it until an experiment is tried. I am convinced that it has only to be tried to be a success. I am also in no doubt that it will be tried one day, and therefore postponement of the experiment can only mean waste of time and material. After all, the appeal of the air to the younger generation is very strong. The appeal of the air and of the sea combined would be irresistible. The number of men who spend their working lives in city offices, either in London or in other great cities, who manage to take their holidays or week-ends spending strenuous and very often dangerous days sailing a variety of small boats or motor boats up and down our shores, is more considerable than many people imagine.
Such people have the sea in their blood. They have the instincts of the ways of the sea which only those who live on it in small craft can know. Give them an opportunity of joining an auxiliary squadron of flying boats, and you will have recruits coming to you in hundreds. You cannot possibly find better material anywhere in the world. The difficulty would not be to obtain recruits, but in selecting from those who would come forward. There would be a mass of splendid material eager to join and the squadrons, or this particular experimental squadron, would soon reach the level of efficiency which has been achieved by the land squadrons. In passing, I should like to say that the nation has a very good bargain in these land auxiliary squadrons, and there is just as good a bargain if only the Air Ministry would make up their minds to spend a little more money upon a few flying boats for experimental squadrons.
Another point I want to raise about the auxiliary squadrons is, that at present they are confined to bombers. Possibly the reason for this was that when they were originally formed, there was a large surplus of D.H. 8 and D.H. 9 machines available, and, therefore, it was cheaper to form bombing squadrons than to form pilot squadrons. That argument no longer applies; in fact, I think the position has been reversed. It is now infinitely cheaper to equip those squadrons with fighter machines than with two or three ton bombing machines. There is another and even greater anomaly associated with these territorial units using bombing machines. The auxiliary squadrons are assumed to be formed for home defence, yet the bomber is essentially a weapon of offence. Therefore, in the event of a European war, you would see the strange spectacle of these territorial units being sent overseas to operate in foreign countries while the regular fighting units remained at home to defend London. The auxiliary squadrons would go willingly and give a good account of themselves, but it seems to me that there must be something wrong in the complete reversal of the roles of regular and territorial units. It would be much more natural for the defence of London and for the defence of great cities to be undertaken by auxiliary fighter squadrons which have been recruited from the different localities they were meant to defend.
No doubt attack is the best form of defence, especially in the air, yet where there is a choice of operating over foreign country or operating over home territory, I feel that these territorial units have a claim to operate here. Another point is that the type of man who joins an auxiliary squadron is exactly the type of man who will best be fitted to be a pilot of a fighting machine. He would make a first class pilot, and the officers of auxiliary squadrons would be very eager to have the chance. I submit, therefore, that there is a very strong case for the formation of auxiliary fighter squadrons, and I hope that the Government will seriously consider the formation of one or more of these units before very long.
This Vote has now reached the very substantial sum of nearly £7,750,000. It is £76,000 more than last year, and it is really, of all the votes in the Air Estimates, in my view, much the most important. It contains the expenditure of the Air Force upon all its various kinds of equipment, aeroplanes and engines alone amounting to £6,500,000. It contains a whole variety of forms of expenditure dealing with research, and it is really the kind of Vote that the House or the Committee of this House will do well to discuss in great detail. It contains a variety of matters of the greatest interest, and it is really the Vote which controls the greater part of the expenditure of the Air Force. Today, obviously, we cannot attempt to go into that kind of detail. All that we can do is to skim the surface and to ask the Under-Secretary of State a few isolated questions about it.
Unfortunately, the question which I wished particularly to raise upon this Vote is one we cannot very well raise to-day. I had hoped very much that the report of the Court of Inquiry into the R 101 disaster would have been available, and that to-day we could have discussed it upon this Vote. It is extremely inconvenient—and I make no criticism of the Court of Inquiry—from the point of view of this House that we cannot have the report in our hands this afternoon. All I would say to the Under-Secretary of State is, first of all, that I was not at all satisfied with the answer I received, both from him and from the Prime Minister, as to the leakage of the report in a daily newspaper, and in due course, when we come to consider the report of the Court of Inquiry, I shall refer to that question again.
Secondly, I wish to say that although we are not to-day going to raise, as we might, the question of airships in great detail, we shall certainly ask for a day's Debate when the report is in our hands in order to discuss its recommendations. I very much hope that when we have that discussion the Government will be able to announce clearly and categorically what is to be their airship policy for the future. The whole question is in a most unsatisfactory state. We are asked to vote a sum of many thousands of pounds in these Estimates for a policy about which we know nothing. It is now several months since the inquiry took place, and the time is already overdue when the Government and this House should decide upon our future airship policy, and when we shall be able to know with what object we are asked to spend £50,000 or £60,000 in these Estimates. That is all I wish to say on the subject, but when we have the report in our hands we shall certainly ask for a discussion on the lines I have suggested.
6.0 p.m.
My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for the Isle of Wight (Captain P. Macdonald) and my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for the Isle of Thanet (Captain Balfour) have raised one or two very important questions upon this Vote. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for the Isle of Wight rightly emphasised various questions with regard to the Schneider Cup Race. Let me say how delighted I am to see an item which, I think, is unique in the Air Estimates, namely, an appropriation-in-aid of £100,000 from a private individual. I commend the generous example of Lady Houston to other rich individuals and I am sure that we should all welcome on all sides of the House similar appropriations-in-aid in Air Estimates in future years. As this is the first chance I have had, I should like to add my tribute to the tributes which have already been paid by other hon. Members to Lady Houston for setting this excellent example. May her money not be spent in vain, and may she see next September the third and final victory of this country for this blue riband of the air. The hon. and gallant Member for Thanet raised some important questions about the cost of equipment of the Air Force and stressed a point that has very often been stressed on former Air Estimates, namely, the great advantage of having a long-term programme, under which firms could make their preparations and would know what was going to be the amount of orders that they would receive in the future. I agree with my hon. and gallant Friend in one respect, that if we could get a programme cut and dried, say, for a period of five years, great economies or great reduction of expenditure might be made on this Vote but, unfortunately, the question is not as easy as it at first appears. In a Service that is dependent upon new inventions and upon constant changes it is almost impossible, try as you will, to have anything in the nature of a cut and dried programme for a period of years. Moreover, in a Service like the Air Service, where it is essential that you should always take the best, where you cannot take the second best, on the ground that it is cheaper, it must necessarily mean that a firm that produces the best new type, the inventor who produces the best invention, must gain. As a result of that, you have these great ups and downs. I do not see how they can be avoided, where a successful firm which produces some new type obtains, as is inevitable, an order and makes a great deal of money out of it.
Then it may be that they go for several years without making any successful new type and, after having reached the height of success, they fall upon bad times and possibly for several years receive no orders, or few orders. That is an unsatisfactory state of affairs but I am afraid that it is inherent in the relations of a new Service like the Air Service, which is dependent upon these new inventions and these constantly changing types. If the Under-Secretary of State could tell us that within these limitations he is trying to spread the orders, that he is trying to avoid these peaks and depths, so much the better, but I am afraid, however much he tries, that he will never be able to reach the point envisaged by the hon. and gallant Member for Thanet, in which you can have your paper programme for five years, during which you can stick to that programme and make no changes. I say that not with a desire to pour cold water on what my hon. and gallant Friend desires, but to put before the House the practical difficulties of carrying it out with any measure of exactitude and detail.
There is one other question to which I should like to draw attention, and that is in relation to certain types of machines included in the Vote. The most surprising feature of the Air manoeuvres of last summer was the superiority of the performance of the bomber over the fighter. It had always been the accepted theory that the performance of the fighter would be much greater than the performance of the bomber, but in the Air exercises of last summer that position was reversed. It was found that the bombers were actually faster than the fighters. I am afraid that that shows that the type of fighter has fallen behind the type of bomber. When it is remembered that the fighter is essentially a defensive machine, that is a serious state of affairs. I hope that the Under-Secretary will be able to give the House some information to reassure us and to tell us that the obsolete types of fighters are being got rid of, and that in future the types of fighters that are coming forward will redress the balance. That is one of the key positions in our home defence system and as things are it is most unsatisfactory, and we must have the balance redressed.
There is one further question connected with types, and that is in connection with the flying boats. One of the most satisfactory features of practical development in aviation during the last four or five years has been the great progress made by flying boats, both for military and civil purposes. During the last two or three years several new types of flying boats have been coming forward, or ought to be coming forward, and I should like to know from the Under-Secretary whether those new types are coming up to the estimates that we made of them when the designs came out two or three years ago, and whether any of the squadrons of the Royal Air Force during the next 12 months are going to be equipped with these new boats. For instance, there are very important flying boat units in the Persian Gulf and at Singapore. Can the Under-Secretary of State say with what types these two very important units are going to be equipped? I should also like to know what new civil types of flying boats are coming forward and whether in the course of the next 12 months any of these new types will be in use by Imperial Airways. From the civil point of view, the question of flying boats is becoming more and more important. With the opening of the African air route, a large section of which will have to be flown by flying boats, it is of the utmost importance that we should be constantly pushing forward these new types of boats and getting them into actual use in the Royal Air Force and in connection with Imperial Airways.
The unique character of the particular Appropriation-in-Aid of £100,000 has been referred to, and I should like to say that, speaking for myself, I appreciate as well as any Member of this House or any member of the general public the generous and patriotic nature of the gift that has been made in connection with the Schneider Trophy contest. I have been asked what is to be done with the machines after the race is over. That question in its larger sense does not arise at this stage. It will be a matter to be dealt with when we have to consider the question later, but the Air Force will have to keep, for some time at any rate, these machines in order to make up the loss of training which has occurred, or which will occur, between now and the contest in September. A certain amount of normal work has had to be dropped for this specialised work in connection with the race, and that must be made up. It will, therefore, be necessary to keep the machines for that particular work. As to what will happen afterwards, I think we had better wait until the time arrives. There can be no question that the matter will be adjusted quite fairly.
So far as the accounts are concerned, it will hardly be possible to have a separate account in the sense of a separate balance sheet for the Schneider Trophy contest. All necessary information will be available, but it will not be practicable to issue a separate account.
Are you purchasing three new machines or reconditioning machines?
That is a question which I would rather not be pressed to answer at the moment. I have been asked a question in regard to the amount that is down for expenditure upon airship development.
Before the hon. Member leaves the question of the accounts, if he will not issue separate accounts, will he give an assurance that an account will be kept for all the money that is expended, so that we can be assured as to how the money has been expended?
I cannot give an assurance of that character. The generous gift was made to the Royal Aero Club, and we are not responsible in that sense. The Air Ministry is responsible in this House so far as Estimates are concerned. I think the hon. and gallant Member will understand that point. In regard to the Airship Estimates, I may say that until a definite decision has been come to with regard to future airship policy, work at Cardington will continue on a minimum basis, consistent with maintaining an efficient staff. That will involve expenditure at the rate of approximately £100,000 per annum. Apart from £12,000 allocated to kite balloon work, this Estimate will cover the maintenance of the works, a limited amount of experimental work on girders, fabric, engines, etc., and a refit of R100. What is necessary is to have a really efficient staff in being so that when the report is considered by the Cabinet and they come to settle future airship policy we shall not be retarded, whatever the decision may be, by the lack of efficiency in regard to staff. The cost will be kept down to the very minimum until the future policy has been decided upon.
With regard to auto-gyros, the whole programme with the de Cierva Company has been completed. We have one autogyro, which was shown at Hendon last year. We know the characteristics of this type of machine and are at present studying the possibility of the application of the machine to practical work. A question was raised with regard to the Royal Aircraft Establishment. Reorganisation has been necessary and has been apparent for some considerable time. An investigation was made in 1924, which showed that a considerable amount of workshop concentration was necessary for the continuance of an efficient establishment, but at that time the capital expenditure proposed was regarded as prohibitive. Therefore, we have been concentrating the activities of the Royal Aircraft Establishment within less space. A scheme of reorganisation was drawn up and, briefly, the proposal follows the general line of concentrating as much of the factory as possible on the south side of the railway. The shops will be rearranged to provide an efficient geographical distribution, and some of them are being bricked in and made permanent. The total cost is £68,000, of which £40,000 is provided in the 1931 Estimates. £30,000 of this will be expended under works and the remainder departmentally under the general expenses of the Royal Aircraft Establishment.
A question has been asked with regard to the new catapult. Before a pilot is asked to fly a new aircraft from a catapult on one of His Majesty's ships at sea it is very desirable to prove by actual test that the aircraft is satisfactory, under the loads and conditions imposed in catapulting. This can only be done by catapulting under equally secure conditions of speed, and of amount and duration of acceleration. It must be done at ground level on an aerodrome so that the aeroplane is not destroyed when catapulted without a pilot. The only catapult now available is an early experimental one, which does not give the same duration or value of acceleration as those now in use in ships and is only suitable for smaller and lighter types of aircraft. The proposed aerodrome catapult will enable all appropriate types of aircraft to be thoroughly tested under conditions of comparative safety before actual trial at sea. In answer to the hon. and gallant Member for the Isle of Thanet (Captain Balfour), the report of the Holt Committee has been received but it has not yet been fully considered.
The Air Ministry Laboratory at Kensington has been mentioned, and no doubt the House would like to have one or two particulars in regard to it. The staff consists of six officers of the Air Ministry Research Staff, under a principal scientific officer. Subordinate personnel is found by the Imperial College on repayment from Air Votes. The cost in 1931 will be £7,110. The work is of a nature which is quite different from that which is possible in the Royal Aircraft Establishment. It has to do with engine fuel research, navigation and research instruments, but there is no production work in the sense of quantity production. The work is self-contained, and there is no duplication of any other kind of work. In engine fuel research a special engine has been designed and is in use on which research work can be carried out on certain varieties of fuel. The advantage is that we are able to bring together here skilled chemists and engineering specialists in order to attack these problems. The programme of work is controlled by the Department, and it therefore includes items which do not normally interest the research Department of the college. We are able to draw on the knowledge and experience of the professional staff of the college. A highly skilled workshop staff is also employed. I agree with the right hon. Baronet the Member for Hythe (Sir P. Sassoon) as to the value of the Auxiliary Air Force squadrons, but I do not think a comparison can be made between them and the regular squadrons as to the efficiency of these squadrons, and in the second place as to their cost' It is hardly a parallel because the auxiliary air force squadrons can hardly come into being or continue in being without the small highly trained sections of the squadrons which belong to the regular Air Force.
I did not disassociate the territorial half from the regular half. The efficiency of the auxiliary squadrons depends largely on the small regular squadrons. I was speaking of the whole unit.
I am in sympathy with the view which the right hon. Member put forward, and I appreciate the value of the auxiliary force for home defence. As regard the auxiliary squadrons of flying boats, that is a matter which the Air Ministry has in mind, but there are certain financial and other difficulties, I think, which will, I hope, be overcome. Questions have also been put to me by the right hon. Baronet the Member for Chelsea (Sir S. Hoare), first, as to the question of a long term programme. That was practically answered by the right hon. Member himself. This is a new Force which is in constant and rapid change and development on the technical side, and it would be practically impossible to lay down a programme for a term of years, or to adhere to a programme for a term of five years. Everyone who knows the actual circumstances will agree with that conclusion. As to the relative merits of fighters and bombers, I do not think there is any justification for the suggestion that as a result of the exercises last August there is a proof that we are behind in regard to the efficiency of the fighting machines. They are bound to be variations when comparisons are being made between two types of aircraft. The curves are unlikely to be always the same, but in any case I cannot add anything useful to what I said in my speech last Tuesday with regard to the new types and the rearming of the Air Force. That is being done as rapidly as possible, and the Ministry is constantly applying itself to the standard of efficiency which should be maintained and indeed to increase that standard of efficiency.
Question, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution," put, and agreed to.
Fifth Resolution read a Second time.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
This may be a small amount, but it deals with a question of national importance, and I desire to ask one or two questions on the items which appear in this Vote. It is very satisfactory that in a time of financial strin- gency we are still able to extend our Imperial Air Services by opening part of the new route to the Cape, and, naturally, the Under-Secretary must be pleased to be able to include in this Estimate £155,000, appropriation received from the Dominions and Colonies. I should like to ask how this amount is made up, from which of the Dominions and Colonies the bulk of the money has been received? I note that there will be a total liability, under the five years' agreement, for the extension of the route from Egypt to East Africa and then on to the Cape, of about £940,000, and I gather that £270,000 is being borne by the Exchequer of this country, and that the balance is coming from the other Governments concerned. I should be obliged if the Under-Secretary will inform me if I am correct, and will give us 'some information as to the amounts which other Governments are providing in order to make up the £940,000. In his speech last Tuesday he referred to the suggested extension of the route to Australia, and said that
Let me reinforce what has been said in regard to the necessity of improving the air mail service by means of night flying, by the hon. and gallant Member for Clitheroe (Sir W. Brass) who referred to the excellent address given to the Royal Aeronautical Society by Captain Carl Florman. The Government should realise some of the facts he put forward. He stressed the point which is obvious that for an air mail night-flying service to be successful you must have machines which are considerably faster than any of the machines we are utilisng for this purpose. He laid it down that the rate should be 125 miles an hour, and there is no difficulty in obtaining British machines capable of carrying the mails to various Continental countries at an average speed of 125 miles an hour. We know that the services which are operating to London from Brussels are run at a high efficiency. During the winter months the efficiency may not be so good, but there is no reason to doubt, with the improved lighting of air routes, and the improvement in wireless and in other methods of communication, why the service should not be run as effectively in the winter months as in the summer.
He also pointed out that a first-class mail traffic to any European country is not more in weight daily than 1,000 lbs. It does not need a very powerful or a very expensive aircraft to carry 1,000 lbs. of mail. It seems to me that the Ministry should co-operate with the Post Office in at least an experimental effort in flying two or three aero-planes for the purpose of testing this service. Then there is the question of the saving of time. By night flying Stockholm would be reached 48 hours earlier. The same remark applies to Oslo. Letters would be received 24 hours earlier in Copenhagen, Berlin, Rome and Madrid. I cannot imagine a greater boon to the business people of this country than such an improvement in the air mail service. I support the case so ably put forward by the London Chamber of Commerce and others interested in the movement, that we should make an improvement in the service by means of night flying, and that the Air Ministry should put some experimental machines into operation.
Will the Under-Secretary tell us what is being done with regard to the lighting of air routes? I understand that there is a flood light being put up very shortly in Lymphe, and that there are one or two other lights about to be erected. That is a side of civil aviation to which the Ministry should devote attention, because it is clear that until we get these routes properly lighted at night, night flying will not be safe, and for the expenditure of money entailed it seems to me that there would be ample return in the advantages to the transport of mails. Would the Under-Secretary state whether the experiments which have been made at Abbeville with a rotating beacon are a success? I believe that the French authorities at Abbeville have been experimenting with the beacon, and I am told that the results have been very satisfactory.
Let me pass to another point. On several occasions the Under-Secretary has endeavoured to impress upon the municipalities the very great importance of selecting sites for their aerodromes. No one has done more than the Under-Secretary to encourage municipal aerodromes. Is it not true that the advantage, at the present time, of making a municipal aerodrome, is the fact that there is a very substantial grant from the Unemployment Grants Committee for such work, and that municipalities which take advantage of this fact will reap a great benefit over those who defer the work until employment is better and the Grants Committee are not as free with their grants as they are now?
Next a few words on the question of aerial signposts. We ought to have a definite and concrete method of marking the names of places so that they can be seen from the air. If you look at the Air Pilot you see certain places which are marked, but the extraordinary thing is that they are all marked in different ways, some on the sides of embankments, some in fields, and some at railway stations, and the pilot in charge of a machine never knows definitely where he will find the name. My suggestion—it would cost nothing—is that the local authorities and those who operate the gas works should be asked to put the names of their particular localities on the top of their gasometers in white paint. That would be very effective, and anybody in the Air Force or any civilian flying in bad weather would know perfectly well that he had only to fly to a town and circle around in order to find on the top of the gasometer the name of the place that he had reached. I have tried to put this scheme into operation in my part of the country, and I would like the Under-Secretary to know that I have met with an amazing response. In the county of Leicester practically all the local authorities of any size, the city of Leicester included, have agreed at their own cost to mark the names of places in this way. It clearly is of some advantage to themselves to have this done, because it is a considerable advertisement for the place that one is flying over to be able to see what that particular place is.
As flying becomes more popular there is no reason why some enterprising town should not advertise the products in which it specialises, on the top of another gasometer beside that bearing the name of the town. This system has already been in operation at Castleford near Leeds. In that case there is also an arrow which points in the direction of the Leeds aerodrome. I do not know whether that is an extra advantage, and whether it would be possible to put a name on the top of a gasometer together with an arrow and the number of miles to the aerodrome indicated underneath. I believe that, without any expense at all, if the Under-Secretary would approach the local authorities and the owners of the combines which control practically all the private gas companies in the country, this scheme could be put into operation in the summer to the advantage of everyone who flies.
I would ask the Under-Secretary also whether he is doing anything to deal with the question of high tension cables. We see them springing up all over the country, to the great advantage of everyone living in the country except those who fly over it. I do not know whether the Ministry have any particular plan, or how these wires should be marked, or what is to be done about them, but there is no question that in the future the wires will be a very serious menace to aviation in this country. I want to say a few words about the grant to the light aeroplane clubs and to National Flying Services. Have all the clubs come on to the £10 per pilot trained basis, or are some of them still on the old basis of the agreements originally made with them? I see that £20,000 is allocated for this service, £15,000 to approved clubs and £5,000 to National Flying Services. If the payment is on the basis only of £10 per pilot trained, it means that the Minister is expecting 2,000 pilots to be trained this year. I cannot believe that he is so optimistic as to believe that we shall practically double the number of A licence pilots in the year. I imagine that a part of the subsidy must be going at the higher rate to those clubs which are still working under the old agreement with the Ministry. A few words about National Flying Services. Personally, I believe that we have a very great deal for which to think National Flying Services. They have done a great deal of excellent work. But I would draw attention to the agreement which was made in 1929, Command Paper 3264, whereby in return for the subsidy:
I see that some money has been expended on the surface of Croydon aerodrome. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Taunton (Lieut.-Colonel Gault) made a speech in the House the other day and was reported as though he had complained about the services at Croydon, whereas he was complaining about the surfaces. The services are excellent, but the surface at the aerodrome is appalling. With the advent of the new four-engined Hannibal machines, about twice the weight of any other which uses the aerodrome, I cannot conceive that the small amount of money which the Ministry is proposing to spend, namely, £3,000, is going to put the surface in anything like fit condition for use. Eventually I believe the Ministry will have to come to the position that is taken up by some foreign aerodromes, particularly in America, where there are runways of tarmac in each direction in order that these heavy machines may land and take off without damaging the surface. In conclusion let me congratulate the Under-Secretary and the country on what the Government and the Minister have done to assist civil aviation.
I would like an answer to the question which I put last week on the subject of Persia. I believe that the agreement with Persia, whereby Imperial Airways are allowed to fly down the Persian Gulf, comes to an end next year. What arrangements are being made to continue that arrangement with Persia and to prevent this very important link in the Indian service being jeopardised?
Under this Vote large subsidies are given to various companies. Before the subsidies are given are inquiries made with regard to the conditions of employment under these companies? When the State enters into contracts with firms it has a Fair Wages Clause, and I submit that before subsidies are given to any private companies there should be similar conditions insisting upon the payment of standard wages to every class of worker employed by the firms. I would like to know whether any condition of that kind is insisted upon in the case of these subsidies.
The hon. Member for Melton (Mr. Everard) asked me a question in reference to the amounts which the respective Dominion and Colonial Governments are allocating to the South African route, and I shall be happy to give him the information. The United Kingdom is contributing £270,000; the Sudan, £26,250; Uganda, £52,500; Kenya £78,750; Tanganyika £52,500; Northern Rhodesia £10,000; Southern Rhodesia, £50,000 and the Union of South Africa, £400,000 making a total of £940,000. I presume that the hon. Member does not wish me to go into details in regard to the way in which these amounts are spread over periods of years. In regard to the position in the West Indies, as I explained last week this matter has unfortunately been rather held up by financial difficulties, but I do not quite understand the point of the hon. Member in regard to Atlantic Airways and his question as to whether their licence is being extended or not. There is no question of a licence for Atlantic Airways. Atlantic Airways could, to-morrow, begin a service if they pleased. The only question at issue is the financial one which involves considerations as to subsidies and other practical financial arrangements, but there is no question of a licence.
The hon. Member also asked a question as to high tension wires and this also is a matter to which I referred last week. The Ministry have this subject seriously in mind and we are constantly in touch with the Electricity Commissioners with regard to this and other problems. I would emphasise once again that if only municipal authorities would "get a move on" and take a long view as to future possibilities, they could make it very much easier to deal with this problem. If we knew what municipal authorities were likely to be able to do within the next four or five or six years, I am sure that we could, in conjunction with the Electricity Commissioners, avoid a number of difficulties which, otherwise, if there is further delay will become rather important. As regards the hon. Member's question about flying clubs and the position of the light aeroplane clubs, I may state that 11 of these clubs are receiving subsidy payments on the same basis as the payments to National Flying Services, that is, £10 in respect of the issue and renewal of each member's licence subject in the case of each club to a maximum of £2,000 per annum. The other three clubs are still operating under the terms of the former scheme and they will come under the new scheme as their agreements expire. Applications from other clubs ate under consideration.
With regard to National Flying Services, the hon. Member knows that the organisation has found itself confronted recently with serious financial difficulties, and it is perfectly true that we are half-way through the period during which National Flying Services are under agreement to provide 20 aerodromes and 80 landing grounds. Progress has not been as rapid as we might have expected, but we hope that in the future, and under the new financial circumstances, it will be possible to expedite matters in that direction. National Flying Services have done a great amount of valuable work which I think is indicated by the figures of the number of pilots trained. The number who have qualified for "A" licences, through the National Flying Services organisation is 320, and the number of pilots at present in training is 822, while the total membership is 1,605.
With regard to Persia which was referred to by the right hon. Baronet the Member for Hythe (Sir P. Sassoon) the agreement is due to end next year and, before long, negotiations will have to be entered into in regard to future arrangements. The time is not appropriate just now to go further into the question. The Air Ministry and Imperial Airways have the matter under close consideration. It was part of the original agreement that the idea of the Mid-Persian route should be explored and arrangements have been made with Imperial Airways to send out representatives to investigate the possibility of operating a Mid-Persian route. I think those are all the questions except that put to me by the hon. Member for East Leyton (Mr. Brockway) with regard to the Imperial Airways contract. That contract contains a fair wages clause just as the other contracts of the Ministry do.
Will the Under-Secretary look into the question of the payment of wages to ground staff in other countries? I am thinking particularly of India where the wage rates for the Indians employed are, in my opinion, scandalously low.
If there are any particulars which the hon. Member would like me to look into I shall be glad if he would provide me with them. I do not know quite what is in his mind but I shall be only too willing to go into the matter if he gives me the necessary information.
Question, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution," put, and agreed to.
REPORT [10TH MAECH].
Resolutions reported,
Army Estimates, 1931
1. "That a number of Land Forces, not exceeding 148,800, all ranks, be maintained for the Service of the United Kingdom at Home and abroad, excluding His Majesty's Indian Possessions (other than Aden), during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1932."
2. "That a sum, not exceeding £9,343,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Expense of the Pay, etc., of His Majesty's Army at Home and abroad, excluding His Majesty's Indian Possessions (other than Aden), which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1932."
3. "That a sum, not exceeding £2,676,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Expense of Works, Buildings, and Lands, including military and civilian staff, and other charges in connection therewith, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1932."
4. "That a sum, not exceeding £3,987,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Expense of Rewards, Half-Pay, Retired Pay, Widows' Pensions, and other Non-effective Charges for Officers, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1932."
5. "That a sum, not exceeding £4,517,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Expense of the Royal Hospital, Chelsea, and Kilmainham Hospital; of Out-Pensions, Rewards for Distinguished Service, Widows' Pensions, and other Non-Effective Charges for Warrant Officers, Noncommissioned Officers, Men, etc., which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1932."
6. "That a sum, not exceeding £246,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Expense of Civil Superannuation, Compensation, and Additional Allowances, Gratuities, Injury Grants, etc., which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1932."
First Resolution read a Second time.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
During the Committee stage I ventured to express the opinion that instead of our Army's fighting strength having been reduced it showed an increase this year over last year. I had hoped that the Secretary of State for War in his reply would indicate that the figures which I was using were in some way inaccurate but, since the right hon. Gentleman did not reply on that occasion to the points which I raised, I should like him to do so now. I have no wish to repeat in detail the arguments which I then brought forward when I challenged both the amount of the expenditure on the Army and the numbers of the Army, but I would like the right hon. Gentleman's opinion as to whether or not I was justified in saying that the real fighting strength of the Army as reflected in the Estimates this year, is greater than it was last year. I find that the Secretary of State for War made a comparison between our Army Estimates in 1921 and our Army Estimates for this year and said that there had been a reduction of over 50 per cent. in expenditure on the service. He quoted a sum of £82,000,000 for 1921 and a sum of almost £40,000,000 for 1931 but I think it is unfortunate that the right hon. Gentleman did not analyse those figures with a little more accuracy.
I have here an abstract of Army expenditure from 1920 onwards and I discover that the expenditure in 1921 was just over £86,000,000. The Minister gave the Estimate, which was £82,000,000, but I am giving the actual expenditure. Then I look to the year 1922 and I find that the expenditure in that year was just over £50,000,000 and that more than £20,000,000 had been expended on what are called "war terminal charges." In fact, the Secretary of State for War in quoting the 1921 figures was taking figures for a year when we were only partially demobilised after the War, when there were "black and tans" and civil war in Ireland, and special troops in Egypt and other parts of the world. He was not, I submit, making a fair Estimate of our normal charges for the maintenance of the Army. If we take the figures for 1922 and even for 1923, we find substantial amounts again put in for war terminal charges, but also, if we take the figures for 1922 onwards we find a drop of just about £10,000,000. We find as well, a drop in money values and if the figures are equated with the purchasing power of money, it brings out, without any shadow of doubt, that there has been no substantial reduction in our real expenditure and that, so far from there having been a reduction in the fighting strength of the Army, there has been an increase. I ask the Minister to consider a statement which was made in 1929. In that year on similar Estimates, the hon. Member for Stourbridge (Mr. Wellock) made a statement and he has given me in his own handwriting the exact quotation. The hon. Member said:
I would remind the hon. Lady that she must confine herself on this Vote to the number of men. She appears now to be dealing with the fighting strength or efficiency of the Army.
I would ask, Sir, if I am out of order in trying to relate the number of men to the fighting force which they represent, because the case which I want to make is that there ought to be a radical reduction in the number of men, mechanisation having gone to such an extent that, even although there is a reduction in the number of men, the smaller number represents an equally effective fighting force.
If the hon. Member argues in that way, she will be all right.
7.0 p.m.
I am sorry I cannot give a very illuminating quotation, which, in effect, says that enormous strides have been made in improving the fighting strength of the Army. I am concerned about this point because the logic of the argument brought forward by the Minister of War was that when the party opposite were in power, they were such a good peace party and went so far towards disarmament by example that all that was left for a Labour Minister of War to do was to reverse the process and to start strengthening the Army. That does not represent my point of view, it is not the point of view we want put in the country, and we are entitled to oppose that point of view because the facts of the case do not bear it out. I claim that our Army has been increasing rather than decreasing in efficiency, and that the Minister of War, in claiming a 50 per cent. reduction in expenditure, was not taking into account the radical demobilisation and that, when he said that we have been carrying on a policy of unilaterial Disarmament which other nations had not followed, he was being less than just to other European nations. I do not want to make the plea that any nation in the world has been going as far in the direction of Disarmament that it should go. Indeed, we all deplore that the tendency has been in the other direction.
I went to the trouble of finding out the numerical strengths of the German, Austrian, British, French, Italian and Russian armies in 1913, 1922, and 1930. I also tried to deal with the budgetary side, but, as any hon. Member will agree who has made any attempt to equate the expenditure on armaments with the real purchasing power of the money, it is an extremely difficult and confusing problem. The figures I have before me, however, make it quite clear that, while none of those countries have been giving a real lead towards Disarmament, Great Britain has no right to single itself out and say that the rest have all been sinners and that we alone have been going forward with a courageous policy of Disarmament. Germany has had her army abolished almost out of existence, and we cannot look to Germany to make any reduction, while the same applies to Austria. But, when we come to France, we find that in 1922 her fighting army was 687,104 men and that in 1930 the figures were 559,853 men. That drop, although by no means spectacular, is all the more important when you remember that those figures also include aviation, in which we have been going up rather than going down. In Italy we find that in 1922 there was an army of 308,000 men, and in 1930 an army of 196,595 men. The Russian figures are perhaps as interesting as any. In 1922 there was an army of 1,590,000, and in 1930 an army of 562,000. I use with some diffidence those comparative figures of armies abroad. Those are official figures, but it is extremely difficult to try to make any generalisation. What I deplore very much is the discourtesy of the Minister of War when he points to other nations and says they have been doing nothing at all, that they have been merely increasing their forces while we alone have been reducing them. If the Disarmament Conference is to be a success next year, the way to get it is not by mischievous and misleading statements.
Hear, hear!
I hope that to-day the Minister is going to generate more light than heat in his reply, and that, instead of replying in what I thought was a Scottish fashion of asking another question, he will reply specifically to the issues I am now raising and have raised before. We are all disappointed at the slowness of disarmament in other countries in the world, but we can call fifty-fifty with other nations and, as far as our Estimates are concerned, which are our primary responsibility, it is not fair, and it is not honest for us to attempt to claim that we have been radically disarming. The Minister of War took a pride in the fact that he is increasing the fighting strength of the Army. Everyone, who takes into account the difference in the purchasing power and the big jump in the value of money between 1921 and the present time and remembers that in 1921 we had several small wars going on and were still demobilising, will agree that there is strong ground for expecting a Labour Minister of War to do very much more in this direction than has been done. In addition to the question I have raised, I would at the same time ask him to bear in mind that some of us very sincerely and deeply believe that now is the time to influence public opinion in Germany, in Italy and all over the world and that, if we go to the Disarmament Conference next year after public opinion in other countries has been bringing pressure on their Governments to disarm in line with the disarmament of a Labour Government in this country, we would go in a much more hopeful atmosphere. But, when we talk of a Disarmament Conference with the best intentions in the world and then produce these Army Estimates and pride ourselves on having a stronger Army then that is not all we have a right to expect a Labour Government to do.
I want to deal with a different aspect from that which has been raised by the hon. Member who has just spoken. I am all for making our Army as efficient as possible, and trust the Minister of War will see to that. In reply to the hon. Lady, I would point out that the figures she gave prove that other nations are not doing anything like what we are doing in disarmament. The point I want to touch upon is that of recruiting. The Secretary of State for War, in making his statement, spoke in a very gloomy manner about the state of recruiting, and I gather from the figures that 53 per cent. of would-be recruits were rejected on physical grounds. That shows a slight improvement on previous years, but there are one or two points I should like made clear. Has any different method been adopted in the examination of recruits? Have recruits to be of a higher standard of fitness now than they were in the past? Are there any particular physical defects in the recruits that have shown themselves more than formerly? On what general grounds were these recruits rejected? Those are things the country ought to know, because we are spending a good deal of money, and it is only fair that we should be aware of what it has been spent on and what are the results.
The next point with which I want to deal refers to the mechanisation of the Army. In dealing with this question, the Secretary of State for War said that for the moment they did not care to take any line that would be permanent, as conditions were ever changing and, therefore, they did not care to spend very much money on these lines until they were quite sure of the position. If mechanisation is taking place and must take place, are we cutting down the redundant part of the Service? On that point I was to refer to the cavalry which, generally speaking, are bound to go as mechanisation proceeds. I have been watching this point from year to year to see if any material progress has been made. I do not, however, see very much, because the figures for 1930 show a total strength for the cavalry of 8,146, which in 1931 had fallen by 31 to 8,115. In that figure we have included the Household Cavalry with 48 officers and 886 all ranks, and an equipment of 526 horses and other animals. The point I want to put is, what use the Minister finds in keeping these on? Going round London any day, we see certain spectacular parades taking place, such as the "Changing of the Guard." I do not know what use that serves. It may have a purpose for recruiting and, if that is so, the Minister of War should make use of that when he speaks about recruiting. If, on the other hand, it is not for that purpose, then it ought not to be kept on as it is at the present time. If the Army is to be useful for the purpose it is for, namely, the defence of these shores, there is no need for carrying this on.
The cavalry has been in existence for hundreds of years, but, as mechanisation takes place, there cannot be any use for it at all. When we are cutting down public expenditure on all sides, as we are doing, these redundant services ought to be done away with. If, of course, the City of London desires to keep them going for other purposes, then the Army ought not to bear the cost. The City of London ought to take it over if it is done in order to attract visitors. I am seriously suggesting to the Secretary of State for War that he should consider cutting out this Service from the Army. If it is needed for the protection of palaces, let it come under another branch of the expenditure, namely, on the Civil Estimates.
There is another point upon which I would like to touch and which concerns the Estimates generally. When the Minister of any Department makes a statement, the whole of that night ought to be devoted to it. I am making my protest now against the existing practice on these matters. When this Estimate was raised before, the opportunity to speak was not given to most of us. A Motion was raised on some particular matter which interfered with the general Debate, and I hope that next time, when the Estimates are being dealt with, we shall have no Amendment or Motion raised, but will be able to debate the statement of the Minister of each Department. I hope that the Minister will bear in mind the points I have brought to his notice so that economy may be practised at the same time as the Army is kept up to efficiency.
It is time that somebody in this party protested against the allegation which is being made against my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War that in some way or other he is disloyal to the policy that this party has adopted on the question of the manpower of the Army. Quite frequently the Front Government Bench is attacked on the ground that it is not carrying out the principles of "Labour and the Nation." The distressing thing is that, whenever they loyally carry out the principles of "Labour and the Nation," they find themselves open to attack from the same quarter without it being acknowledged that they are loyal to those principles. The paragraph in "Labour and the Nation" dealing with this topic is under the heading of "The Six Pillars of Peace," and it says this:
When my hon. Friend the Member for North Lanark (Miss Lee) compares the figures in the various Continental countries of 1922 and 1930, and draws some deductions from them, I cannot help reminding myself that during that period the terms and length of service and the power of recruiting trained reserves into the armies of those nations as available fighting units in the event of war, have completely vitiated any deduction that can be drawn from those figures that they represent a real deduction in the fighting forces of those countries. When they are properly analysed, they show rather that during that period the three countries that the hon. Lady specifically chose—France, Italy and Russia—have to-day more men whom they can put into the field within a month from the declaration of war than they had in 1922. It is a very serious thing that, when the Government are consistently following the policy that they have laid down, a policy that is gradually inspiring confidence among other nations that this country is really sincere in its belief that disarmament by agreement is the only way to bring the menace of war to an end in Europe, voices should be raised continuously in this House urging them to depart from it in a way that would make them far worse off at the Disarmament Conference than they would be by following the policy that they have been pursuing.
I did not want to weary the House by going into the details, but from official returns that I have, there is a reduction in France, not only in the number of soldiers, but in the number that could immediately be put into the field. France had a standing army of 720,000 in 1913; to-day it is 279,000, and a considerable number of them have had only six months' training. In fairness to France, although we deplore her belligerent tendencies, we ought to admit the reduction in numerical strength and in the length of service.
I do not know what authority my hon. Friend has for those figures, but I cannot help reminding her that even in this country, if we were to proceed on the number of men whom we could put into the field, there must be at least 3,000,000 who have engaged in military discipline and who, in three weeks, could be turned again into the Army that we disbanded in 1919. The whole history of post-War disarmament has been seriously to discredit the figures which the hon. Lady has just given, and the alteration of the terms of service in France has considerably affected their power to put a strong, well-equipped and disciplined army into the field. I hope that the Government will steadily pursue the policy that the further stages of disarmament must be carried out on an international basis in international conferences, each nation making its contribution, and this country being there to see that the policy that this party has laid down as the soundest policy for this country will gradually become the policy of the nations of the world.
May I deal for a few moments with the hon. Lady the Member for North Lanark (Miss Lee). I assure her that she will get always from me exactly the same courtesy that she extends. She has been very courteous to-night, so I will attempt to be quite as courteous to her, and to deal quite frankly with the position she put. I do not recognise her figures. To me they are simply unacceptable, for they do not coincide with either the figures that are published in the League of Nations books, or with my own information. When we come to consider the position since 1924, there has been an actual reduction in cost in the British Army of £4,000,000. There has been a reduction in the past two years in actual expenditure, and I do not know a single large country, either on the continent of Europe or outside Europe, where the expenditure has not just as consistently been rising. When we desire to be fair to other countries, never let us forget that it is necessary to be fair to our own. I cannot understand the frame of mind that wants to be scrupulously fair to others, but is quite indifferent towards our own country.
The fact of the matter is that we have no reason to be ashamed of our record. I know that the hon. Lady is interested in Continental Socialist movements, but let me tell her that there is no Socialist movement on the Continent that does not frankly recognise that this country has shown an example. From Warsaw to London and from London to Copenhagen there is not a single Socialist party but will say that they look upon England as showing an example, and look upon the Labour Government with hope for the future. Only a few years ago, the whole of France was placarded by the Socialist party of France with regard to the work done for Disarmament by the Labour Government of 1924. What is the use of saying we ought to be fair to other nations, when other nations know what we are doing? They recognise it, and, by resolution after resolution and declaration after declaration, they have affirmed their confidence in the Labour party of Great Britain. The only party, apparently, that has not confidence in the Labour party is the party represented by the hon. Lady. All the other parties to my knowledge have confidence in the British Labour party and its keen desire for Disarmament and the work that they have done in that respect.
We are told that we had at certain times special troops in certain places, and that that ought to be taken into account when we come to consider the reductions that have been made. Have we not special troops now in other places? If the hon. Lady will consult the Estimates, she will see the number of troops that we have in different parts of the world. She will see the extraordinary range of the British Empire, and with a little imagination, she will be able to realise that these troops are very thin indeed. To talk about Britain as a nation that is constantly striving to make itself stronger, is to use language that simply cannot be justified by cold fact.
Our friends on the Continent must be different, because I get complaints that, while we contend that we are disarming, in actual fact we are not. I am merely trying to find out the truth. Sir Laming Worthington-Evans specifically stated in 1928 that the Army had increased its strength by 100 per cent. in the previous five years. That was not denied, and the Tories rejoiced in this relative increase, which I deplore.
I wish the hon. Lady would look all round the subject. We have to regard this in a comparative sense. Does she dream that the same developments that have taken place here have not taken place elsewhere. If she will go into the figures and facts, she will find that technique and, above all, flying strength, have developed enormously in other countries compared with this country, and it is as well to remember that other countries are moving on the same lines as we are, and, relatively speaking, we are not increasing. It is really due to herself and the House that the hon. Lady should realise the facts as they are, and bear in mind that comparisons must be made with things as they are, and that she should not compare us as we are in 1931 with another country as it was in 1921. That is not the true comparison. The true comparison is, How do both countries stand in 1931? I do not want to say a single word about Russia. I could say a good deal about Russia and other countries, but I carefully refrained from mentioning any other country. What I said was that not only was the Government prepared to enter into arrangements for international disarmament, but was prepared to take the lead, and every statement which the hon. Lady makes which throws doubt on our good intentions, which will lead people to believe that we are humbugs and hypocrites, and saying things which are not true, will impede our work when we meet in international conferences. Any word which she had said which would help the Government to maintain its position as a Government really anxious for disarmament would have helped disarmament, but every word said in this House, or outside, which will lead people to think that we say one thing with our mouths and do another thing with our hands will not help towards disarmament, unilateral or bilateral or in an international sense.
From the point of view of peace itself, I hope that from no side of this House will there be any indication that our policy is not thoroughly honest, is not thoroughly pacific, and is not thoroughly intended to mean disarmament in the future. Doubts thrown upon our good faith can result in no good, and they can result in unlimited evil to the cause of disarmament. Let me take one or two of the figures given by the hon. Lady. If I took her figures right, she said France had a standing army of over 500,000 now. I ask her to consider that by the side of our army. When she is talking about the forces in Italy, I ask her to remember that Italy has not only an army but a Fascist militia. Let her just look round the whole subject, and she will find, when it comes to the actual facts of what this country has done, that we have no reason to be ashamed of our record. We have stood four square for peace in the world. Whatever the Government has been since the War ended, whatever colour it has had, it can claim to have played a part in the comity of nations which has been a peaceful part, and not the least peaceful part has been played by the Government now in office. It is not correct to say that we may say fifty-fifty with other nations. We cannot go fifty-fifty with other nations if our expenditure is continually decreasing and theirs is continually increasing. That is not possible. It is impossible for anybody who will try to face the facts fairly and honestly to say that it is a question of fifty fifty at all.
I make an earnest appeal to the hon. Lady to do two things in future: To give credit to the Government for just as good intentions as she has herself, and, incidentally, to give credit to the Government for knowing as much about international affairs as she does, and being quite as well informed. Secondly, I make an appeal to her and her friends to drop the idea that by always assuming that their own country is not playing the fair game they are doing any good to the future of the world, because they are not. If our country is playing the part of a hypocrite, by all means expose it; but the figures, the facts, the work of the Foreign Secretary, and the work of the Prime Minister in 1924, are the clearest possible proofs of the good intentions of the Government and of the work done by the Government. There has been no question as to the policy of the Government. It has been stated perfectly clearly that unilateral disarmament has gone far enough, that it is not helping and has not helped towards international disarmament, and that only disarmament by agreement will be successful in the future. That must end what I have to say so far as the hon. Lady's speech is concerned.
With regard to my hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Mr. Tinker), may I say that the examinations of recruits are, unfortunately, even less strict than they used to be, and that it is a disappointment to me to find that those examinations show the state of things which has been disclosed. I do not say that that state of affairs is worse than is used to be, I do not even say it is worse than it was before the War, but I do say it is not good enough for a nation like ours. Whatever the cause of it may be, whether the War has been largely the cause—and we must remember that the recruits of to-day were the children of the War—it is up to this House, without distinction of party, and through the Ministry of Health in particular, to do everything that can be done to raise the physical status of our people. As to the cavalry and mechanisation, I carefully explained—or tried carefully to explain—in my Estimates speech that mechanisation was being undertaken with what we considered to be due caution. With the continual development of machines, we believe it would be folly to lay up huge stocks that might become out-of-date shortly afterwards. The best thing to do is to mechanise in a cautious way, to experiment until a type can be definitely fixed, and until its efficiency is thoroughly proved; and then it will be time to think of making a stock article, so to speak, and of laying down standard types of the different machines we use. That policy will be continued.
Does that mean that the cavalry regiments will be kept at the strength they are now until you have developed that policy?
It means that until we have developed that policy, and until we are thoroughly satisfied that horses, so far as troops are concerned, can be dispensed with—and I think it is a fairly long time ahead before they can be dispensed with absolutely—the cavalry will remain as it is. It is perfectly true, and one might as well confess it, that the cavalry in London are really an appanage of Royalty. At the same time, they are trained soldiers, and, as the War showed, in case of emergency would have to take their place in the ordinary way. I do not think there is a single horse or mule in the army that is wasted; but when the time comes when we can do without them, we will do without them. The next question asked was whether it is possible to put this Household Cavalry on to some civil Vote. I do not think for a moment that that is at all possible or desirable, or that the country as a whole would care to make the change. The remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) came like a breath of fresh, and refreshing, air. It is time we faced up to the position in which we find ourselves.
I stand at this Box with absolutely no reproaches as to the Government policy, but with a firm belief, based on the most careful study of the figures, based on the knowledge I have of the feelings of Socialist movements on the Continent of Europe, based on my knowledge gained from the reading of a fairly considerable slice of the journals of the Continent, based on information I have been able to get in my present office, that the only way to attain disarmament in this part of the world is by an international agreement, and that anything in the shape of a unilateral arrangement can never bring disarmament. Experience has definitely proved that example does not produce the results that I, for one, had hoped from it. I believed 10 years ago that provided somebody set an example that example would be immediately followed. In my opinion the example was definitely shown, but the result did not come; and I cannot shut my eyes to the facts of life because I hold a beautiful theory that ought to work out but does not. And so I end on the note on which I began, that the Government policy is plain and distinct—disarmament by international agreement; the maintenance of the force we now have but the diminution of it as soon as we can agree with other nations; and in February next I hope that we shall be able as a Government to come to an abiding agreement with other Governments, particularly in Europe, which will lead to an understood diminution of armaments which will be international and not unilateral.
I had not intended to take part in this Debate, but some misconceptions may follow the speech to which we have just listened, and I would like to remove those misconceptions. I wish to say in the clearest possible way that there is no section of the House which has a greater admiration of the work for peace which this Government has done than those for whom I speak. I must not extend that, because if I did, I should be going outside the particular scope of this Debate; but I want to say that in the most definite way that I possibly can, in order to meet the view which the Minister put forward that we are not appreciative of the services our Government has rendered to the cause of peace. The point of view we have been seeking to urge from these benches is that, in the condition of the world to-day, if we are to take an effective step towards disarmament the method of unilateral disarmament should be attempted. I admit at once that there is a strong case to be put forward from the point of view expressed by the Government, but I ask the right hon. Gentleman to recognise that there is also a strong case to be put forward from our point of view. When he states that the Socialist parties of Europe are satisfied with the policy of the Government in this respect, I would remind him that there is a growing opinion, even in the Socialist parties of the Continent, in favour of the policy of disarmament by example. The parties of the Scandinavian countries, the party of Holland and the party of Switzerland have adopted the policy for which we ourselves on these particular benches stand.
The two points which my hon. colleague the Member for North Lanarkshire (Miss Lee) was making do not seem to have been destroyed by the speech of the right hon. Gentleman. Her first point was that in actual fact disarmament is not taking place, because the money value of our expenditure is as great to-day as it was a year ago, and that a comparatively small reduction of .06 per cent. in expenditure does not represent the money value, which has actually increased, of the expenditure upon the Army this year. Her second point was that the mechanisation of the Army is making the number of soldiers in the forces infinitely more powerful and more destructive. You cannot merely judge any article by the money you spend upon it, and you must judge it by the effectiveness of its purpose. From that point of view, instead of proceeding towards Disarmament we are actually arming to a greater extent than we were before. The chief point of complaint in the speech of the hon. Member for North Lanarkshire was the attempt made by the Secretary of State for War during the Committee stage to show that this country had been proceeding with a policy of Disarmament by example which had not been followed by other countries. The right hon. Gentleman took the figures for 1921. I submit in the friendliest possible way that the figures of 1921 have no real relation to the problem which we are discussing. Those were figures which were affected by conditions of demobilisation. The figures for the Army fell between 1921 and 1922 from £86,000,000 to £50,000,000. I suggest that the figure for 1921 is exaggerated, and that is due to after-War circumstances and has no relation at all to existing figures. In claiming that since that time our expenditure has fallen by 50 per cent. the right hon. Gentleman is taking into account the 1921 figures, which were exaggerated by War circumstances.
The last point I wish to make is that the right hon. Gentleman, using the exaggerated figure for 1921, has claimed that this country has carried out a policy of Disarmament by example which has not been followed by other nations. In regard to the figures quoted by the hon. Member for North Lanark, I will only say that if the right hon. Gentleman will refer them to the League of Nations at Geneva he will find that they will be confirmed. I particularly deplore the suggestion that the right hon. Gentleman has made that this country has given an example which other nations have not followed, because I believe that will be a bad psychology for the forthcoming Disarmament Conference. That is all I desire to say, and I hope I have done something to clear up some of the misconceptions left by the speech of the Secretary of State for War.
I would like to ask the Secretary of State for War if he could not consider the rewording of something he said in his speech when he spoke of the cavalry as a "Royal appanage," and said that in the War they had to go out the same as other people. I think that that expression is hardly just to the British Army, and it is certainly not true of the spirit of those gallant regiments. Neither is it true of the spirit with which they went out, and the great services they have rendered. It is not quite fair to describe them merely as a Royal appanage. I happen to know that they fought in the Egyptian War, the South African War and the last War, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will remove the impression which he conveyed that British soldiers have to go out.
If the right hon. Gentleman wants to be assured that the two words I used were not meant in any offensive sense, I will gladly give him that assurance. As to the point of their being a Royal appanage, I do not know of better words that I could use in regard to the cavalry. I did not use those words in any disrespectful sense, and if the right hon. Gentleman can supply me with better words I will willingly accept them.
Question "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution," put, and agreed to.
Ordered, That the Resolution which upon the 18th day of this instant March was reported from the Committee of Supply and which was then agreed to by the House be now read:—
"That 93,650 Officers, Seamen, Boys and Royal Marines be employed for the Sea Service, together with 550 for the Royal Marine Police, borne on the books of His Majesty's Ships, at the Royal Marine Divisions, and at Royal Air Force Establishments, for the year ending on the 31st day of March 1932."
Ordered, That leave be given to bring in a Bill to provide, during Twelve Months (and as respects certain places outside the United Kingdom, during fifteen months), for the Discipline and Regulation of the Army and Air Force; and that Mr. T. Shaw, Mr. Alexander, Mr. Montague and Mr. Sanders do prepare and bring it in.
Army and Air Force (Annual) Bill
"to provide, during Twelve Months, (and, as respects certain places outside the United Kingdom, during fifteen months), for the Discipline and Regulation of the Army and Air Force," presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 114.]
Second Resolution read a Second time.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
I want to draw attention to the position of the civilians employed in the units at the camp on Salisbury Plain. These civilians have recently suffered a cut in their wages of 2s. 5d. They are men employed in partially-skilled trades as limbermengunners, servants and waiters, and the resoult of this cut in their wages is that they are now receiving £1 16s. 10d. per week of 48 hours. In that district housing is a rather serious problem, and as regards the married men amongst those civilian employés, they have more or less to live in council houses, and the average sum that they have to find for rent and rates is 11s. 6d. per week. That means that these married men have to provide for themselves and their wives and families on 24s. a week.
I am quite prepared to acknowledge that this cut in wages is in accordance with the terms of their engagement, but as to that I would like to make three observations. In the first place, although they may have to submit to cuts in accordance with the cost-of-living figure, there must be a point below which their wages cannot drop. I submit that 24s. a week for married men to support their families is below the sum which they ought to receive. Secondly, the cost-of-living figure takes no account of the rent which they have to pay, and the rent does not vary. Whatever the cost of living may be, these men still have to pay 11s. 6d. per week for rent and rates. Thirdly, I would like to say that the men who are performing precisely the same duties in other parts of the country—take, for example, Weymouth—are receiving 47s. per week, less insurance. I do not think it can be contended that the cost of living differs very considerably in Weymouth, and I put it that there exists a very real case for an immediate consideration of the grievance of these men. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will be able to give me some assurance that he will be able to take some action in this matter in the very near future, with a view to removing what is a great hardship on a most hard-working section of the community.
I am afraid that I cannot give the hon. Member the assurance for which he asks. May I take this opportunity of congratulating the hon. Member on his maiden speech? I am sure that we shall always be glad to hear him speak if he puts his case with the same lucidity, force and clarity that he has done tonight. The fact is that the wages of these men are not merely an Army affair, and they can be dealt with only after consideration by the Treasury and upon a general principle covering this class. So far as I know, the wages paid to these men are similar to those paid to other workmen under similar conditions, and they are based on the trade union rate of wages for the district in which the men work. So far as I know, in this case we have strictly followed the principle of the Government being a good employer paying the full rates of wages. If I am mistaken in this statement, and the hon. Member will give me details showing that I am mistaken, I will see that the matter is attended to. I know that the Fair Wages Resolution applies to these men, but I am perfectly willing to consider any statement which the hon. Member may send along. I would like to say that if the wages paid to these men under the Fair Wages Clause are strictly in accordance with the conditions that apply to everybody else, I can hold out no hope of special treatment in this case.
The statement which has been made by the right hon. Gentleman in regard to the Fair Wages Clause is rather misleading. The Government were never asked to keep down wages to the low level of employers in the district where the governmental work happened to be situated. The Fair Wages Clause applies to Government contractors, and it is quite an innovation to find that in the Civil Service, during the last few years, an endeavour has been made to operate the Fair Wages Clause as far as Government establishments are concerned. I may say that this question was raised on one occasion during arbitration proceedings before the Industrial Court. It was raised in the case of an Admiralty arbitration, and it was clearly laid down by the arbitrators at that time that this principle did not apply to such cases. With regard to the wages paid in the Salisbury Plain camp, they are inadequate, and I sincerely hope that the War Department will seriously consider the wages paid not only there but in many other Government establishments, and will endeavour to give the men a sum adequate to maintain a reasonable standard of life.
Question, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution," put, and agreed to.
Third Resolution read a Second time.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
8.0 p.m.
I would like to raise one or two considerations with regard to married families' quarters. It is common knowledge that the Government hold that the State should be the owner of house property, and if these are the opinions of the Socialist party, they should put their own house in order. I have felt very deeply during my service in the Army that housing conditions in the Army were not as good as they ought to be. I have made several inquiries, and the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State has been good enough to give me some information in the form of answer to questions and letters. While the information has been asked for during the last six months, after the present Government had been in power for over a year, there appears to be very little information actually available in the War Office as to the state of married quarters.
I make this suggestion, that the right hon. Gentleman should print annually, quite posibly in the Army Estimates, the actual number of buildings for married quarters that are possessed by the Army. It would not take much room and would probably go into a page. By this means we could see how the Army was keeping pace with requirements. That is a matter which any civilian organisation under private enterprise would have at its fingers' ends. From the answers to my questions it would appear that there are about 2,000 families in married quarters which are too small, and in the Aldershot Command there are about 416, and I would like to stress the difficulties in the Aldershot Command especially, as well as in other garrison towns. It is common knowledge that the charges made to soldiers and to officers when they have to go into quarters which are not provided by the Government are very excessive and bear very hardly on the married non-commissioned officer or a man if he has to put his family into a civilian house, where, I am afraid, the charges of landladies are as a rule very high.
In addition to that, there is one thing that one notices particularly in slum conditions—and it is the first thing that rural and urban housing authorities are down on—and that is the question of communal latrines. I am horrified to find that there are nearly 300 cases where the War Office in their married quarters go in for the system of communal latrines, and I suggest that the ought to get rid of them as quickly as possible. I should like also to raise the question of barrack wardens. It always seems to me that when the housing question reaches its proper proportions, the barrack wardens should be provided with quarters. Their representatives have always put their case forward, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will see his way to put the barrack wardens into quarters as soon as possible. I am sorry to see that there is this overcrowding. There are only 231 married quarters being started, and that is only roughly 3 per cent. of the requirements. I think the Secretary of State for War should have found more money for these services.
If we turn to the question of the soldiers who are not in married quarters, I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he is satisfied with their present conditions. I get complaints, and other hon. Members get complaints, with regard to barracks in Scotland, and I am told that barracks in Edinburgh are partly modern and that others are not so up-to-date. I should like to know whether that is true. Then I should like to ask how the right hon. Gentleman is getting on with the conversion of the wooden huts put up during the Boer War period into more modern and more permanent barracks. If the right hon. Gentleman could say a word or two on the question of housing in Egypt I should be glad. We are informed that a general movement of the Army down to the Canal may take place during the future, and from information received the area around the Canal is by no means as healthy as it ought to be. The water supply is inadequate. I notice some mention of refrigerating plant and, I think, sewerage in that connection, and perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will say whether he is looking ahead and planning anything in the nature of suitable barracks, because if a sudden decision were taken to remove the Army to those quarters, it would be extremely unsatisfactory, and sickness would be rife. That is a matter on which I think considerable apprehension is felt.
I know that housing in the Army suffers from one main disadvantage, and that is that it is from year to year and that only a small sum can be allocated. If the right hon. Gentleman could initiate a continuous policy whereby perhaps in the last few months of the financial year the money had not to be suddenly spent, and new construction could be initiated, I think he would get the gratitude of a good many families in the Army. I have not said a word about married quarters for the officers, but I want to say one thing. Being myself a gunner, and having had a share in some difficulties there, and knowing what is going on at the present time, I think the right hon. Gentleman should look into the question of the allocation of their married quarters. What happens is this: A battery or a brigade move into a station and are told there are no married quarters for them. They then obtain houses in the neighbourhood, and as soon as they sign their lease, perhaps in six months' time, the War Office says, "We have married quarters now, and you are to move into them." They have to undergo monetary loss and give up their lease, or else they are forced to have two houses on their hands. I suggest that the reasonable anticipations of a regiment or a brigade when they move should be looked into, and if the right hon. Gentleman is not satisfied with the present working, he should alter it. I am sure the right hon. Gentleman, from what he has said in his speeches, is very interested in this subject, and I hope he will excuse the zeal in my case, as in the case of Mr. Midshipman Easy.
The hon. and gallant Member for Louth (Lieut.-Colonel Heneage) has raised a question of very great interest and, unfortunately, a question which is a problem of very many years' growth and which it is absolutely impossible to solve in any one year's Estimates. In the present financial condition of the country, it would be quite impossible to go to the Treasury and ask for the money which I personally would like all at once, in order to bring these buildings up to the standard that I think ought to exist throughout Army buildings and Army accommodation. I am no believer in the old theory, I think it was of the Duke of Wellington, that the soldier should live hard in order that he may be hardened to fight if fighting takes place. I think the soldier ought to be comfortably accommodated in every possible way and given every reasonable accommodation that one would expect in present-day conditions.
There is a host of details in the Estimates as to what is being done, from page 192 to page 203. That information is varied in character and I think will be found very interesting. I have to say quite definitely that I would like to have been able to devote more money to this object that I have been able to do. I have simply had to do as other Ministers have, and that is the best that I could under the circumstances. I have no special complaint from Edinburgh at all, and did not know there were any very grave disadvantages in the buildings occupied by the troops there. I will look into the matter after the statement of the hon. and gallant Gentleman, and if it be the fact that things are very bad there, I will see what can be done in order to provide a remedy. When I say to the hon. and gallant Member that we are spending in this year £114,500 in order to replace huts by permanent construction, he will see, that being an instalment, what our problem has been in the past, and I think he will acknowledge that it is one that cannot be solved by anybody at one fell swoop, so to speak.
What the hon. and gallant Member said about communal latrines is, I think, perhaps the most serious complaint. I agree with him that these things ought to be abolished at the earliest possible moment, but it is not as easy to do a thing as it is to say and think it, because in many cases it may be that this abolition means the pulling down of a complete block and the rebuilding of a new block, a thing that cannot be done in a short space of time, however willing one may be or however much money there may be at the disposal of the War Minister. I am glad to be able to inform the hon. and gallant Member that the problem is being grappled with seriously—that at the beginning of the year this number had been reduced to 343, and that of these we hope 128 will be definitely abolished before the end of next financial year. Therefore, we are really grappling with the problem in a substantial way.
As to the question of troops in Egypt, I am on very difficult ground. Quite evidently it is impossible to put up permanent buildings in a country where a treaty may be signed at any time which may mean that the troops will go from one place to another. We must do what we can in the peculiar circumstances to see that the troops are maintained under perfectly healthy conditions so far as it is possible, but without wasting money by putting up permanent buildings that may have to be left as the result of a treaty—whatever Government is in office, of course—inside a comparatively short time. I hope that the hon. and gallant Member will accept my assurance that we shall try our level best to see that the troops are kept under healthy conditions, and that as much comfort as is possible in the peculiar circumstances will be provided for them.
Question, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution," put, and agreed to.
Fourth, Fifth and Sixth Resolutions agreed to.
[REPORT, 11TH MARCH.]
Order read for Consideration of Fifth and Sixth Resolutions.
Navy Supplementary Estimate, 1930
5. "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £495,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1931, for Expenditure beyond the sum already provided in the grants for Navv Services for the year."
Navy (Excess), 1929
6. "That a sum, not exceeding £122,770 1s. 11d., be granted to His Majesty, to make good Excesses of Navy Expenditure beyond the Grants for the year ended 31st March, 1930."
Fifth Resolution read a Second time.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
I do not propose to delay the House for very long, but I take it that it will be the desire of the House that I should say a word in explanation of this Supplementary Estimate. It is not so formidable as it looks, so far as the question of increased expenditure is concerned. The House is aware that, after a Department has made its Estimate and sent it to the Treasury, there is usually applied by the Treasury what is called a "shadow cut," which, in effect, takes cognisance of the probability that the whole programme of work will not be carried out. The "shadow cut" on the last occasion was a very generous one, amounting to £1,640,000, and the programme of work went forward a little faster than, perhaps, was anticipated. The major portion of this Vote, however, is due, not to any overspending, but solely to a falling off in the appropriations-in-aid. A large amount of our appropriations-in-aid, in normal times of good trade, is due to the hiring of our oil tankers by outside firms, and the fact that there has been a falling off amounting to some hundreds of thousands of pounds under this head accounts to a large extent for the present Supplementary Estimate.
In addition, there was an expenditure of £328,000 on account of compensation for the cancelled building programme of 1928. That included £225,000 to Messrs. Vickers Armstrong in connection with gun mounting contracts for the "Surrey "and the "Northumberland." The House will see, therefore, that the overspending actually amounts to only about £165,500, the rest of the deficiency being due to the falling off of £329,500 in appropriations-in-aid, which may be mainly attributed to the falling off in the trade and commerce of the country and the subsequent slump in the oil market for the hire of our tankers. Other contributory factors were an underestimate of naval pay and a non-payment of £25,000 from Canada in connection with the outfits of ammunition for two destroyers, payment of which is not now expected until 1931. The House will see that this Estimate is not due to any extravagance or departure from our programme, but wholly to circumstances over which we could have no possible control.
Question put, and agreed to.
Sixth Resolution read a Second time.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
In going back, as one has to do when the question of an excess is being dealt with, one should exercise the same care upon which this House always prides itself on exercising over the expenditure of public money. There are two points in connection with this Statement of Excess on which I should like a little more information. No doubt they are capable of a perfectly reasonable explanation, but, before the money is voted, I should like to have such explanation. In these cases it is often a question of over-spending in one Department and under-spending in another, and details of this sort are given on the back of the White Paper. There appears to have been an under-spending of nearly £250,000 on the Fleet Air Arm, on which we see a surplus of £234,000. This is a very considerable sum, and not only is it considerable in itself, but it forms a very large proportion of the total sum expended on the Fleet Air Arm.
Although it may be said that the Fleet Air Arm is a service ancillary to the Navy, it is a service of prime importance, because, unless the Fleet is properly equipped with aircraft suitable and appropriate for its work, it will not be an efficient Fleet. Here, apparently, as far as I can see, the 1929 Estimates provided for an expenditure of £250,000 in excess of what was actually spent, and I do not know what explanation there is for the under-spending. It seems to be considerably more than would be accounted for by a mere casual miscalculation. There is under-spending on shipbuilding and repairs to a very considerable extent. That might well have been caused by a cancellation of ships that had been part of a programme, and I anticipate that that is the explanation, but I should like to be certain that this is the reason why we have this large sum of over £300,000 less than the Estimate. I do not wish to enlarge unduly on these subjects, but I think the Financial Secretary to the Admiralty will appreciate the points on which I am anxious to have some information, and I hope he will be able to give a satisfactory explanation.
Perhaps, before I deal specifically with the point that the hon. Member has raised, I ought to explain that, as no doubt the House is aware, the Admiralty has no authority to transfer money voted from one Vote where there might be under-spending to another which is overspent. Nobody, of course, quarrels with that procedure, it being quite a salutary provision that the House should keep proper control. It happens that in the year 1929 there was a considerable under-spending on some Votes and excesses on others, and we have now to obtain the approval of the House to our action, under the covering authority of the Treasury in using surpluses on some Votes to meet deficits on others in order to carry on for the time being. I have also to ask for an additional cash grant to meet the actual net deficiency which is due solely to a falling off in Appropriations-in-Aid, and not to over expenditure; for example, we did not realise so much as we expected for the sale of old ships and the issues of stores to Dominion Governments and of oil fuel on repayment were less than anticipated. The hon. Member has drawn attention to under-spending in regard to the Fleet Air Arm. The Board decided not to proceed with the whole of the proposed additions to the Air Arm. That accounts for the under-spending on that Vote.
Will the hon. Gentleman follow that up further? This year we are again told the Fleet Air Ann is not going to be treated in the way we anticipated, and less has been done than we hoped. I should like to know whether this indicates a definite change of policy as to the efficacy of the Fleet Air Arm.
It is not so much a change of policy as a reconsideration as to how we could best spend the money that we had to spend. We are carrying forward the reduction policy of 1929 even into this year. That accounts for the under-spending on that occasion. There is no other answer to be given beyond that. No doubt the hon. Member is not wholly satisfied with it, but that is the answer, that the Government decided not to proceed with all the additions proposed. So far as there has been any falling off in repairs I may say that there has been sufficient work to keep the personnel in full employment all the time, but there has not been enough work to warrant increasing it. We want to spread the work uniformly, so as not to have dismissals at one time and recruitment later on. By the spreading of the work uniformly it might appear at this point that there is a reduction in the amount of work done in the dockyards, but ultimately the hon. Member may rest assured that the full amount of work is being given throughout the Royal dockyards.
Question "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution" put, and agreed to.
Ways and Means [17th March]: Report
REPORT [17TH MARCH].
Resolutions reported,
"That towards making good the supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year ended on the 31st day of March, 1930, the sum of £471,541 13s. 7d. be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."
"That towards making good the supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the the year, ending on the 31st day of March, 1931, the sum of £2,893,000 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."
"That towards making good the supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year, ending on the 31st day of March, 1932, the sum of £206,693,700 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."
Resolutions agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in upon the said Resolutions by the Chairman of Ways and Means, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and Mr. Pethick-Lawrence.
Consolidated Fund (No. 2) Bill,
"to apply certain sums out of the Consolidated Fund to the service of the years ending on the thirty-first day of March, one thousand nine hundred and thirty, one thousand nine hundred and thirty-one, and one thousand nine hundred and thirty-two;" presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 115.]
Probation of Offenders (Scotland) [Money]
Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 71A.
[Mr. DUNNICO in the Chair.]
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That, for the purpose of any Act of the present Session to amend the Law relating to probation of offenders in Scotland, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament, towards the expenditure of local authorities under the said Act (including expenditure by way of contribution towards the expenses of maintaining persons who have been released on probation under a condition as to residence and towards any travelling expenses incurred in respect of any such persons) of such sums as the Secretary of State, with the approval of the Treasury, may direct and subject to such conditions as he may, with the like approval, determine."—( King's Recommendation signified. )—[ Mr. W. Adamson. ]
The estimated annual charge to the Exchequer under the Bill is about £9,000 a year. This estimate is arrived at by taking into account the cost to the Ex- chequer of the probation service in England and Wales, which is estimated for the current financial year to be £49,000, and the fact that in Scotland the number of persons proceeded against annually for contravention of the law is, in proportion to the population, about 50 per cent. higher than the corresponding figure in England and Wales. This higher number of proceedings in Scotland is often attributed, and I think is mainly attributable, to greater efficiency in the Scottish system of public prosecution. There is, therefore, in Scotland an appreciably wider field in proportion to population for the exercise of probation. It is anticipated that the new charge against the Exchequer will be off-set to some extent by the saving consequent on persons being put on probation instead of being maintained in prison. The amount spent by local authorities in aid of which the Exchequer grant will be paid will be determined, subject to Treasury approval, by the Secretary of State, and it is contemplated that the grant will amout to one-half of the total expenditure. With that brief explanation, I hope that I may get the Resolution with very little discussion. If there are points with which hon. Members on either side of the House may disagree, there will be ample opportunity for discussing the whole matter when the Bill comes before the Scottish Standing Committee.
The Secretary of State has set forth the reasons for this demand upon the Committee. Under his Bill, it is proposed that salaried probation officers be appointed in every large burgh and county in Scotland. They are to be paid by the local authorities, and the State propose to bear the expenditure to the extent of one-half, the money for which is being provided in this Financial Resolution. I heartily approve of the system of probation. There is no better way of dealing with the young delinquent, and it is necessary above all things to keep young people out of prison, if possible. I was impressed by the figures which were given by the Under-Secretary of State on the Second Reading Debate, when he said that the Prison Commissioners' Report for Scotland for 1929 showed that 882 boys and 58 girls between the ages of 16 and 21 were imprisoned. I should like to know what was the geographical distribution of those prisoners. I think that it will be found that practically all of them came from the crowded industrial areas of southern Scotland. I am bound to say, speaking as a Member for a northern city, we do not feel that there is any necessity for the appointment of a salaried probation officer in a city such as Aberdeen, and certainly not in the county areas round about. It is estimated that it will cost the State in Aberdeen £600 or £700, and that it will cost the city just as much.
All that work is done meanwhile most admirably by voluntary effort, which covers the whole ground. In fact, I believe that there are more volunteers for the work than there is work to do. They have a juvenile organisation committee in Aberdeen and a representative of that committee attends all juvenile Courts, and there are various voluntary bodies, such as a lads' club, a club for girls, a vigilance association, and the Salvation Army undertaking this probation work which is, I think, completely covered. There is, therefore, no need for a salaried probation officer in circumstances like those. Take the county of Aberdeen with its 60 police stations. There are few probation cases. They are in a widely scattered area and a great distance from each other, and I do not think that in such circumstances the position would be adequately met by the appointment of a salaried officer who would have an enormous district to cover, and have to spend a large part of his time in travelling. He might have one case in one part of a county and another case at the other end of the county.
From what I can gather, in the northeastern counties generally there is no desire for this system of salaried probation officers. The work is carried out where necessary by the Salvation Army and other bodies. It is emphasised by my constituents in Aberdeen that there is a closeness of touch and an individual interest exercised by a voluntary officer belonging to one of those societies or to the Salvation Army towards the young offender, which can hardly be equalled by professional probation officers who would be, so to speak, known as such. A representative of the Salvation Army in Aberdeen was interviewed the other day on the matter, and said that he had a certain number of cases under his charge, and that he got a boy or girl to call upon him in a quiet way and make friends with him: I think that that is much more easily done by a voluntary society than it would be if the officer were a paid official or a salaried probation officer. If you take a county like that of Inverness, where you might have a dozen cases, you would have to cover an area from Nethy Bridge on Speyside to the Hebrides. I am not saying one word of criticism of this system in regard to some of the cities in the south and the crowded areas. I would do everything possible to keep, boys and girls out of prison, but what I am pointing out with all the emphasis possible is that a system admirably suited for Glasgow and Lanarkshire is not necessary in a city like the one I represent, and certainly not in the rural areas near. Therefore I would ask the right hon. Gentleman very carefully to consider these opinions. I am really voicing what is the general volume of opinion in the north of Scotland. I speak for the local authority in Aberdeen, and also for those people who are interested in the charitable societies which have been carrying out this work.
Question put, and agreed to.
Resolution to be reported To-morrow.
Selection
Ordered,
"That Mr. Parkinson be discharged from the Committee of Selection and Mr. Paling be added to the Committee."—[ Mr. T. Kennedy. ]
Shop Assistants
Ordered,
"That Mrs. Manning be added to the Select Committee on Shop Assistants."—[ Mr. T. Kennedy. ]
Adjournment
Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[ Mr. Kennedy. ]
Adjourned accordingly at a quarter before Nine o'Clock.