House of Commons
Tuesday, March 31, 1931
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
Private Business
Private Bills [ Lords ] (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That in the case of the following Bills, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:—
Northampton Extension Bill [ Lords ].
Yorkshire (Woollen District) Transport Bill [ Lords ].
Middlesex County Council Bill [ Lords ].
Bills to be read a Second time.
Southern Railway Bill,
As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.
Oral Answers to Questions
Trade and Commerce
Italy and Russia (Agreement)
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he has yet any information with regard to the treaty between Italy and Russia for the interchange of commodities?
I have caused further inquiries to be made, and am informed that the contents of the Agreement have still not been made public. I am not, therefore, in a position to give any information on the subject.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether treaties of this nature have not to be deposited with the League of Nations, and is not that a means of ascertaining the contents of the treaties?
I require notice of that question. The hon. Gentleman will observe that one of the parties to the treaty is not a member of the League.
Does not that make it all the more important that information should be obtained and published with regard to these treaties, which do not go through the usual formality of being deposited with the League of Nations?
The right hon. Gentleman will observe that in this particular case I have no power whatever until the contents of the treaty are divulged.
Imports and Exports (Statistics)
asked the President of the Board of Trade what were the values of the exports of British manufactures to foreign countries and retained imports of manufactures of foreign countries into Great Britain, respectively, in the year 1930?
The desired information will not be available until towards the end of the current year, when the particulars will be published in Volumes I and IV of the annual statement of the trade of the United Kingdom.
Is it not a fact that there is a very serious change in the position as disclosed by the months up to date, showing a tendency of British manufacturers to fall behind for the first time compared with foreign countries?
It would be impossible to deal with that question. There have been changes beyond dispute, but I could not go into them in reply to a supplementary question.
Are there no provisional figures available at an earlier date?
Yes; the comprehensive figures applicable to the whole range are available, but not separated figures as the right hon. Gentleman has requested. That separation is available only later in the year.
Russia
asked the President of the Board of Trade how many ready-made doors have been imported from Russia during the last 12 months; how the figures of such importation compare with the previous 12 months; and what is the current wholesale price of such doors as compared with the cost of production of similar British doors?
Particulars relating to doors are not separately recorded in the Trade Returns of the United Kingdom or of the Soviet Union, and I have no information as to the current wholesale price of doors of Russian manufacture. Imports of doors into this country are included under the heading of builders' woodwork—window-frames, doors, etc.—the imports of which into the United Kingdom, registered as consigned from the Soviet Union during the 12 months ended 28th February, 1931, were of a declared value of £10,717 as compared with £23,337 during the previous 12 months.
asked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether it has now been decided to issue an economic report on Soviet Russia; and whether he has now arranged also to issue an appreciation containing the results to date already manifested under the five-year plan?
In reply to the first part of the question, I would refer the right hon. Member to my reply to the hon. and gallant Member for Lewisham, East (Sir A. Pownall) on Monday the 2nd February, and with regard to the second part of the question, I would refer to my answer returned to the hon. Member for Newcastle, North (Sir N. Grattan-Doyle) on 23rd March.
When will the hon. Member come to a decision on these matters?
I understand that there have been changes in the organisation out there, and that that has delayed the report.
Is the hon. Member aware of the important bearing that this five-year plan may have on industry in this country?
Leather and Fabric Gloves
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he has any evidence of the relative durability of imported leather and fabric gloves and similar goods made in England?
I am afraid I cannot furnish the hon. Member with any specific evidence on this subject.
Road-Stone (Imports)
asked the President of the Board of Trade the total quantity and value of broken road-stone imported into this country during the year 1930; and how it compared in price and quality, respectively, with broken road-stone obtainable in this country?
During the year 1930, 596,000 tons of granite—other than setts and pavement curbs and monumental and architectural granite—of a declared value of £436,000, and 109,000 tone of granite setts and pavement curbs, valued at £303,000 were imported into the United Kingdom. I am unable to state the amount of broken road stone, as such, that was imported into this country. As regards the second part of the question I am advised that the prices and qualities of road stone are so variable that it is impossible to make such a comparison as is suggested in the question.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that, in view of the unemployment which exists in the quarrying industry, we ought to make more use of stone produced in our own country?
American Wallpaper (Imports)
asked the President of the Board of Trade the value of American wallpaper imported into this country since the beginning of the year and for a corresponding period in 1930?
The total declared value of the imports into the United Kingdom of printed and embossed paper hangings, registered during January and February, 1931, as consigned from the United States of America, was £3,975, compared with £2,426 during the corresponding period of 1930.
Liquidations and Bankruptcies
asked the President of the Board of Trade the number of failures for the last 12 months to any convenient date, separately, in public companies, private companies and partnerships?
The number of liquidations of companies in 1930 was 3,370, of which 3,024 were voluntary, and the number of bankruptcies of partnerships was 219. Separate figures for private and public companies respectively are not available.
Iron and Steel Industry
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he now proposes to issue the full text of the report of the Government committee inquiring into the position of the iron and steel industry?
I would refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave on this matter to my hon. Friend the Member for Northampton (Mr. Malone) on the 27th January.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the widespread dissatisfaction in the industry at the report not being published, particularly, having regard to the references made by his right hon. colleague, the Prime Minister?
There has been a certain amount of controversy regarding this report, but I assure the House that all the interests were consulted, and the Government are definitely of opinion that it is much better to adhere to the decision not to publish this document.
Would the right hon. Gentleman say whether the translation published in a German paper, and the retranslation published in an English technical paper, are approximately accurate?
I should not like to pronounce on that matter beyond saying that there was a certain leakage in a German newspaper for which, of course, the Government had no responsibility whatever.
In view of the publication of this alleged translation in a German paper, would not it be better for the benefit of everybody concerned that the report should be published in this country?
No. That does not follow. The leakage, I think, was confined to one portion of the report, but there are many other portions to be considered.
Is the right hon. Gentleman in a condition to deny the report?
Withdraw!
asked the Prime Minister what action the Government intend to take following on the report of the Civil Research Committee on the iron and steel industry; and if he will grant time at an early date after Easter for the discussion of proposals to assist this industry?
I have been asked to reply. As regards the first part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the replies that I have given to previous questions on this subject. As regards the second part of the question, it does not seem likely that a Debate would be helpful at this stage, but the subject can, of course, be raised in connection with the appropriate supply.
Does the right hon. Gentleman not realise that conditions in this industry are worse than they have ever been, and can he point to any single step the Government have taken to help it?
Can the right hon. Gentleman say who it was that requested that this report shall not be published? Was it the industry?
No. The industry was consulted, but, having regard to all the facts, the Government decided against publication, and to that decision we adhere.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware—
This is the second time we have had this question this afternoon.
British and Dominion Goods (Advertisements)
asked the Secretary of (State for Dominion Affairs if he will consider the advisability of refraining from further advertisement of Dominion goods on Empire Marketing Board hoardings until a scheme can be evolved whereby similar advertisements of British goods can be shown in the Dominions?
No, Sir.
Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that everything has been done to encourage our Dominions to reciprocate?
The hon. Member cannot be aware of the question he is asking. He is asking me to agree to something that would be a violation of the bargain made with the Dominions. I am asking them to reciprocate in every way that they can, but to say, "Unless you do it, we will not give effect to our side of the bargain"—well—!
Empire Marketing Board (Travellers, Lancashire and Yorkshire)
asked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs with what object the Empire Marketing Board has recently appointed travellers to call upon retailers in Lancashire and Yorkshire, and with what results?
As the reply is a long one I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for his answer, may I ask if he is endeavouring to persuade the Dominions to advertise British goods as we advertise their goods, and if there have been any results?
Certainly. A Press notice issued by me last week indicates that a generous gift was recently given in this country to the Empire Marketing Board; this will, I hope, stimulate others.
Following is the reply:
In January last the Empire Marketing Board appointed an organiser and five canvassers to conduct an experimental campaign in the principal towns in Lancashire and Yorkshire to increase the sales of Empire butters. These officers, after making contact with important wholesalers, called upon all retailers known to be stocking butter in Manchester, Stockport, Warrington, Wigan, Chorley and Bolton. 3,273 calls were made and 1,101 retailers were found to be already stocking Empire butters. Of the remaining 2,172, who were not stocking Empire butters, 1,561 promised to do so. Subsequent visits to all retailers in Manchester and Stockport who gave this promise have shown that in Manchester 503, or 85 per cent., and in Stockport 161, or 75 per cent., have already fulfilled their promise to the board's officers. The board are much encouraged by these striking results, which could only have been achieved by the whole-hearted co-operation of the retail trade.
Suez Canal (Contracts)
asked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department the value proportion of contracts for cement needed by the Suez Canal Company placed with British firms over the five years period 1925 to 1930?
According to my information, no contracts for the supply of cement have been placed by the Suez Canal Company with any British firm during the period stated.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the terms of the contracts given out make it almost impossible for British firms to compete?
When the mission to Egypt went out this was one of the questions we asked them to look into, and they made inquiries about it, and we are now awaiting an answer.
Will the hon. Gentleman have copies of the contracts placed in the Library, so that the House can see the form of contract?
I will consider that suggestion.
Cannot the hon. Member draw the attention of the right hon. Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Horne) to this matter? He is one of the Government directors on the Suez Canal Company.
Coal Industry
Export Trade (Sweden)
asked the President of the Board of Trade the quantity of coal imported by Sweden from this country during the last 12 months; and how the figures compare with the previous 12 months?
The imports of coal from the United Kingdom during the periods specified in the question are not recorded in the Swedish Trade Returns. During the 12 months ended February, 1931, the quantity of coal exported from the United Kingdom and registered as consigned to Sweden was 1,596,385 tons as compared with 2,430,553 tons in the preceding 12 months.
Is the decrease to be attributed to the fact that we have bought far less timber from Sweden owing to increased imports from Russia?
No; I should require notice as regards particular commodities, but I should not put it down to that; it is rather due to the increased severity of Polish competition in the Scandinavian market and certain other considerations.
Have any representations been made by the right hon. Gentleman or the Secretary for Mines as to the effect on our trade in coal with Sweden?
My hon. Friend the Secretary for Mines has been very active in the pursuit of the Scandinavian market.
Have we not bought far less timber from Sweden this year than the year before?
That is a separate matter. I pointed out in the Debate a night or two ago that there had been a diminution, but I should hesitate to connect it too closely with this question.
Is it not the case that we still buy as much timber from Sweden as before the War?
As to precise figures, I require notice.
Coal Mines Act
asked the Secretary for Mines whether, in view of the further experience of the working of the quota system for the limitation of coal output, he will now consider the amendment of the Coal Mines Act?
No, Sir.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware of any contracts that were lost owing to the quota system under the Coal Mines Act?
That appears to be a different question.
Will the hon. Gentleman consider the question of under-selling as between one district and another?
Does this question refer to floating mines or to coal mines?
Supplies
asked the Secretary for Mines whether he has considered the communication sent to him from the Essex County Coal Merchants' Association drawing his attention to the shortage of coal in the county of Essex owing to the operation of the Coal Mines Act, and asking him to take steps to remedy the position; and what steps he has since taken to ensure that a normal supply of coal of the usual qualities is available for the county of Essex?
Yes, Sir. I have had no evidence of serious or widespread shortage of coal in the county of Essex, though no doubt a few cases of difficulty and inconvenience have occurred. These, I hope, will now disappear as a new period of output allocation commences to-morrow.
If I give the hon. Gentleman private information of a big private institution at Colchester which cannot get normal supplies, will he interest himself in the matter?
Certainly.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the hon. Member for Plaistow (Mr. Thorne) rang up one day, and got two tons of coal the next?
asked the Secretary for Mines whether he has any further statement to make about the supply of coal for the long-distance steam trawlers and for the gas undertakings in Hull?
A new output period commences to-morrow, and I trust that no further inconvenience will be experienced by trawler owners or others.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the date to-morrow?
Yes, I share that knowledge with the right hon. Member.
Is it not probable that the same inconveniences will arise at the end of the next period?
asked the Secretary for Mines the total production of coal permissible under the quota system in the Fife coalfields and the actual production of coal up to the present date?
The central council makes its allocation to Scotland as one district under the Coal Mines Act, and not in respect of the separate parts of that district. I am unable, therefore, to give the information asked for in the first part of the question. With regard to the second part of the question, the quantity of coal raised in Fife and Clackmannan between 1st January and 21st March this year was 1,661,500 tons.
Can the hon. Gentleman give the figures for last year?
I can if the hon. Member gives me notice.
asked the Secretary for Mines whether he is aware that, owing to the shortage of coal in Eastbourne, due to the usual Midland supplies not being available to merchants, certain collieries and factors last week demanded prices for coal from Eastbourne merchants up to 6s. a ton above the previous week's price; and whether he will take steps to remedy the situation?
I have had inquiries made and I am satisfied that the prices charged generally by collieries and factors for coal for the South of England remain steady, with perhaps small increases of the order of 1s. per ton. Isolated cases of substantial increases in price may have occurred, but in some instances these were due to the purchase of better quality coal. I am informed that the merchants prices to the consumer remain unaltered.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the instance I have given in the question is authentic and will he make inquiries in the matter; is he also aware that the quality of coal was not a superior quality; and, when he stated last week that the coal from Eastbourne was sea borne, was he aware that Eastbourne has no port?
I have answered the question with regard to the increased price, but, as I informed the hon. Member in my reply, these are but isolated instances. The information which I have given is information derived from the merchants who are responsible for the sale.
Prices
asked the Secretary for Mines the average cost per ton of getting coal to the pit-head in Warwickshire; the wage rate per ton paid to the working collier; the pit-head selling price of this coal; the retail price per ton in the localities immediately adjacent to the pits; and the retail price charged for Warwickshire coal in London?
During January, 1931, the latest period for which information is available, the net costs of production per ton of coal disposable commercially in Warwickshire were 14s. 4d., the wages costs 10s. 3½d., and the pithead proceeds 16s. 11¼d. I regret that the other information asked for by my hon. Friend is not available.
In view of the extraordinary difference between the cost and sale prices, will it be possible to arrive at some conclusion in regard to this matter?
It may be possible to arrive at a conclusion. It is a question of machinery.
asked the Secretary for Mines the pit-head selling price of coal for Durham for the months of September, October, November and December, 1930, and January and February, 1931, and the prices of coal sold in Newcastle-on-Tyne, Tynemouth, Gates-head, South Shields, Sunderland, Durham, Barnard Castle, Bishop Auckland, and Darlington for the same periods?
The average pit-head proceeds per ton of all coal commercially disposable were as follow:
Employment, Durham
asked the Secretary for Mines the number of miners employed underground and on the surface in Durham for each month from January, 1930, to January, 1931, inclusive?
As the reply involves a number of figures, I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate such information as is available in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Will the Minister say whether there has been more or less employment?
The number of men employed in January, 1931, is fewer than in January, 1930.
Following is the reply:
Date and Number of Wage Earners on Colliery Books in Durham. 1930. 25th January 141,818 22nd February 142,232 29th March 142,176 26th April 141,004 31st May 137,352 28th June 131,246 26th July 127,470 30th August 123,824 27th September 123,444 25th October 121,793 29th November 119,610 27th December 119,295 1931. 31st January 120,025
Separate information for underground and surface workers is not available but approximately 80 per cent. of the total number of wage earners are employed below ground.
Agriculture
Wheat Prices
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will state the average price of wheat imported from Russia and Canada, respectively, from August, 1930, to February, 1931, and the average price of home-grown wheat during that time?
The average declared value, c.i.f., of wheat imported into the United Kingdom during the seven months ended February, 1931, registered as consigned from the Soviet Union—Russia—and Canada was 5s. 10½d per cwt. and 7s. 2d. per cwt., respectively. The average price of British wheat during the same period calculated from returns under the Corn Returns Act, 1882, was 6s. 7d. per cwt.
Plants, Trees and Shrubs (Imports)
3 and 4.
asked the President of the Board of Trade (1) if he can state the number and value of plants, trees and shrubs producing edible fruits imported into this country in 1913 and 1930 from foreign countries;
(2) if he can state the number and value of plants, trees and shrubs not producing edible fruits imported into this country in 1913 and 1930, respectively, from foreign countries?
As the answers involve a number of figures I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate the desired information in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Is there any co-operation with the Ministry of Agriculture with regard to these imports in cases of disease?
I require notice of that question. This appeared to me to be a matter of statistics, and I had no thought of disease.
Following is the answer:
THE following statement shows the quantities and declared values of plants, shrubs and trees imported into Great Britain and Northern Ireland registered in the years 1913 and 1930 as consigned from Foreign countries: Articles imported. Quantity. Declared Value. Plants, shrubs and trees— No. £ Producing edible fruits … … … … 1913 547,255 2,973 1930 1,494,122 14,201 Not producing edible fruits … … … 1913 6,825,638 132,303 1930 45,465,021 387,700 NOTES.—1. The figures for 1930 are provisional. 2. The figures for 1913 relate to the British Isles as a whole, whereas those for 1930 relate to Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
Questions
Germany and Austria (Proposed Customs Union)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the Board of Trade have given consideration to the Austro-German Customs Convention; and if he has formed an estimate of its effect upon British trade?
It would not be possible until the terms of any Customs agreement that might be arrived at were known and, in particular, until the common scale of duties to be imposed on goods entering the proposed union was indicated, to arrive at any very definite conclusion as to the probable effect on British trade, but, if the scale of duties were to remain at about the present level, the Customs agreement would, so far as I am able to judge, not be likely to affect very materially the volume of our export trade.
Will the right hon. Gentleman keep in close touch with the situation?
The whole matter on the trade side is being very carefully considered.
asked the President of the Board of Trade what tariff treaties are in force between Great Britain and Germany and Great Britain and Austria; and how they will be affected by the proposed Austro-German zollverein?
There are no treaties in force between this country on the one hand and Germany or Austria on the other which prescribe the actual rates of duty to be charged upon the importation of specified classes of goods. The position under existing treaty engagements was dealt with in the comprehensive statement which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs gave at Question Time yesterday.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if the Government will enter into negotiations with the Governments of Germany and Austria with a view to obtaining the same tariff reductions for this country as those granted to each other by these two nations?
I would refer the hon. Member to the very full statement made yesterday by my right hon. Friend and to the reply given by me on Wednesday last to questions by a number of hon. Members.
Mercantile Marine
Suez Canal (Dues)
asked the President of the Board of Trade what has been the outcome of his consultation with the shipping interests with regard to the Suez Canal dues; and whether His Majesty's Government intends to take any action in this matter?
I am not yet in a position to make a statement on the subject. The consultation with the shipping interests is still proceeding.
If a further question is put down soon after Easter does the right hon. Gentleman anticipate being able to give some information?
Yes. By that time it may be possible to make a more definite statement.
Has my right hon. Friend regular consultations with the British directors of this company?
Yes. Representations must be considered from the shipping interests, and it is then for the Government to consider what form the representations to the company should take. The point of my hon and gallant Friend will not be overlooked.
Panama Canal (Charges)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can make a statement as to the facilities afforded and the charges levied by the Panama Canal Company for the passage of British shipping; and whether the fact that the number of British vessels passing through the canal fell from 1,783 in 1929 to 1,636 in 1930 is due to any increased charges on our ships?
The facilities afforded and the charges levied by the Panama Canal administration are the same for vessels of all flags. As there has, so far as I am aware, been no change in these charges since 1914, the last part of the question does not arise.
Has the right hon. Gentleman satisfied himself whether or not preference is given to ships of the United States as against our ships passing through the Canal?
I understand not. My information is that the charges are uniform. If there is any specific complaint, I should like to have it in writing.
Oil-Carrying Ships (Separators)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will take steps to bring about an international agreement to compel the general adoption of oil separators on all oil-bearing and oil-carrying vessels?
At the International Conference held at Washington in 1926 the proposal that separators should be compulsorily fitted on oil-carrying and oil-burning ships was not adopted, the action of the conference being limited to a recommendation for the establishment of a system of zones of so many miles from the coasts within which the discharge of oily water should be prohibited. Though the shipowners of this country and of some other nations voluntarily agreed to observe the recommendation of the conference with regard to zones, it has not been found possible to obtain international agreement even on that recommendation, and, in the circumstances, no useful purpose would be served by endeavouring to obtain international agreement on the more controversial question raised by my hon. Friend.
Has there not been a great deal of development in invention since that conference; and are these separators not much better now?
Yes. That may be so, but the House will observe that this matter rests entirely on international agreement. It would not help matters if one country did it, and others were free to continue the existing practice.
Could not the advantages of these inventions be brought to the notice of the other nations and of the League of Nations in order to press the point of view that these separators should be adopted on all boats?
I have no doubt that they are aware of the facts. The difficulty is to get the various interests to adopt these appliances.
If the inquiry which is now being conducted proves to the Board of Trade that there has been a considerable development in this respect, will the right hon. Gentleman take the matter up with a view to getting international agreement?
As far as we are concerned, we are quite sympathetic, but the reply to my hon. Friend is what I have already said, namely, that, if there is a difficulty in getting agreement, even on a minor and restricted point, then it is to be expected that there will fee still greater difficulty in getting agreement on the wider field to which my hon. Friend refers.
Questions
Company Law
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the Government will consider in the present Session the introduction of legislation for the protection of the interests of shareholders in public companies, with reference to the issue of fraudulent shares, and otherwise?
Having regard to the pressure of Parliamentary business, my hon. and gallant Friend will not expect me to hold out any hope of the early introduction of company legislation, but, if he will let me know what specific proposals he has in mind, they shall be noted for investigation when the question of amending the Companies Act is being considered.
Cunard (Insurance) Agreement Act
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he can now make a statement showing the respective proportion of the Canard construction insurance which has been finally placed in the market and the proportion which falls upon the Government Cunard Insurance Fund?
I have now received the certificate required under the agreement between the Board of Trade and the Cunard Steamship Company, Limited, that the maximum amount of insurance obtainable on the terms and conditions specified in Clause 1 of the agreement has been placed in the open market. This amount is £2,720,000, leaving £1,780,000 to be covered by the Board of Trade.
Then the Board of Trade will meet this demand?
Oh, yes, in the terms of the agreement. This is the part uncovered in the open market, which the Government covers.
Am I right in assuming that the Government will receive exactly the same rate of premium and give the same rate of discount?
The terms will be exactly what were discussed in this House and were finally embodied in the agreement.
Military Expenditure (Comparative Statistics)
asked the Secretary of State for War what are the respective percentages of reduction in national expenditure on military services in Great Britain, France, Italy, the United States of America, Japan and Russia, respectively, in the year 1930 compared with the expenditure in the year 1924?
I am having the information prepared, and will circulate it as soon as possible in the OFFICIAL REPORT. The preliminary figures show that only in the case of this country is there a substantial percentage decrease; in the case of Japan there is a small decrease, and in the other cases there are increases.
When does the right hon. Gentleman think it will be possible to supply that information? If I put down a question after Easter, will he be able to reply?
The figures are being carefully tabulated, and I hope to be able to issue them to-morrow.
Is the right hon. Gentleman measuring this expenditure in terms of francs at the gold ratio, or in francs at the depressed value of 1924, compared with francs at the present value?
Or roubles?
The calculations are being made with an earnest desire to get as near to the truth as possible.
Will the figures be published in the OFFICIAL REPORT, SO that they may be well known? I do not want them only for myself.
Yes, Sir, they will be published.
Scotland
Fishing Industry
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he has received the petition signed by over two hundred fishermen in Avoch and by over one hundred other fish workers and traders, representing that the lack of sprats and herrings in the upper reaches of the Moray Firth is due to the heavy gun practice carried on in the autumn by His Majesty's Fleet; whether he has already approached the Admiralty on the matter; and, if not, when he intends to do so, in view of the importance to the inhabitants of the locality who are dependent for their livelihood on the fishing industry?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. At my request the Fishery Board for Scotland have already set full inquiries in motion, and will report to me with the least possible delay.
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is yet in a position to give the result of the researches into the effect of the salp on the herring industry?
Since 1921 when abnormal numbers of salps were observed in the North Sea, salps have been reported in similar quantities once only, namely, in the summer of 1925. The herring caught during that summer off the coast of Scotland were in general of poor quality but it cannot be stated how far this was connected with the presence of the organisms in question. The matter will continue to be kept under observation by the scientific staff of the Fishery Board for Scotland.
While thanking the hon. Gentleman for the information and congratulating him on his appointment, may I ask if this exploration is being followed up fully, and if he is likely to be able to give any more information on this important subject?
I have already pointed out in my reply that this matter will continue to be kept under observation by the scientific staff of the Fishery Board.
Will the hon. Gentleman explain what a salp is?
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland the number and the amount of claims for compensation notified to the Fishery Board for Scotland during the past 12 months at the instance of the Scottish line, cod and herring fishermen in respect of damage caused by trawlers to lines, nets and other fishing gear; the number of claims which have been settled; the number still outstanding; and the steps which have been taken by the Board to assist the fishermen in recovering damages against the trawl owners?
Since 1st April, 1930, 18 cases of damage to Scottish line, cod and herring fishermen's gear, alleged to have been caused by British trawlers, have been notified to the Fishery Board for Scotland. The amount of damage reported is £309 3s. 13 cases have been settled and five are outstanding or have been abandoned. All such cases notified to the officer of the Board are fully investigated by the officers in accordance with Section 7 of the Sea Fisheries (Scotland) Amendment Act, 1885. The officers assess the amount of damage sustained, and make every effort to arrive at settlements between the parties, but in the event of agreement not being reached it is for the claimants to pursue the matter independently if they so wish. In addition to the above cases, 39 cases of damage to cod nets are reported as having been caused by foreign trawlers in the Moray Firth, the amount of damage being estimated at £858. These cases are being specially considered with a view to claims for compensation being put forward through the foreign Government concerned where the evidence available justifies that course.
Does the right hon. Gentleman mean to convey by his answer that the Scottish Office are interesting themselves in this question of compensation, and will insist on having these claims submitted to foreign Governments?
Arable Farming
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how the area under arable farming in Scotland compares with that in 1928, giving the relative figures of acreage?
The area of arable land in Scotland, as returned on 4th June, 1930, was 3,071,815 acres, as compared with 3,133,430 acres in 1928.
Poor Law Relief
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many Poor Law authorities there are in Scotland; how many require the applicant to register at an Employment Exchange as a condition for the grant of relief; and what is the estimated proportion of those who have so registered to the total number of applicants who are granted relief?
The number of Poor Law authorities in Scotland is 55, including 31 county councils and 24 town councils of large burghs. Information is not available as to the number of these authorities who have made it a rule that applicants for poor relief must register at an Employment Exchange as a condition for the payment of relief. According, however, to returns obtained monthly by the Department of Health, there were at 15th February, 1931, 16,159 destitute able-bodied unemployed persons, excluding their dependants, in receipt of out-door poor relief in Scotland, and of these, 14,918, or 92 per cent., were returned as registering at Employment Exchanges.
Cess
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury if he will at an early date furnish a return showing with reference to each Scottish county separately, for some recent financial year, the number of persons who pay cess, that is, the number of separate exactions, the total amount payable, the amount which has been redeemed, the number of redemptions, and the number of continuing payments which are under £1 yearly?
The compilation of a return of the detailed nature desired by the hon. Member would, I think, involve a disproportionate expenditure of labour and money, but I will give such figures as can readily be made available if he will repeat the question after the Easter Recess.
Can the hon. Gentleman give any indication that the Government will take steps to modify the whole method of collecting this taxation, which is uneconomical and inconvenient?
I think that is somewhat different from the question on the Paper, but I will have that matter looked into.
Questions
Australia (High Commissioner)
asked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether he is yet in a position to state the decision arrived at with regard to the appointment of a High Commissioner in Australia?
This matter is receiving the active consideration of the Government.
Seeing that this matter has been under consideration for many months, can the right hon. Gentleman say when a decision will be arrived at?
The decision to appoint a High Commissioner has already been taken, but, as regards the personnel, the matter cannot easily be settled, and I could not give any indication of when a Commissioner is likely to be selected.
Unemployment (Statistics)
asked the Minister of Labour the number of days estimated to be lost owing to unemployment since 1st June, 1929?
It is estimated that during the period 1st June, 1929, to 16th March, 1931, approximately 980,000,000 working days were lost owing to unemployment by insured persons recorded as unemployed in Great Britain out of a total possible working time for the whole insured population of approximately 6,640,000,000 working days.
Is the right hon. Lady aware that the Labour candidate at East Woolwich has forgotten to put that in his election address?
Washington Hours Convention
asked the Minister of Labour whether Germany has taken any steps to ratify the Washington Hours Convention?
I understand that legislation intended to enable the German Government to ratify the Convention is under consideration.
Can the right hon. Lady tell us how long it has been under consideration, whether it is more than two years?
Probably.
asked the Minister of Labour whether she has ascertained that the conditions upon which France and Italy, (respectively, ratified the Washington Hours Convention will be satisfied, so far as Great Britain is concerned, by ratification by His Majesty's Government subject to the provisions of the Hours of Industrial Employment Bill?
The condition attached, by France is ratification by Germany and Great Britain. The condition attached by Italy is ratification by Belgium, France, Germany, Great Britain and Switzerland. I am unaware of any other conditions.
Will the right hon. Lady take care that ratification by this country implies an interpretation of the Convention at least as favourable as that which Italy and France have adopted?
Answer!
May I have an answer to my question?
I have answered the question on the Paper. The supplementary question could be answered in debate, but it is not suitable to be dealt with in an answer in reply to a question.
Income Tax (Distraint)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that it is the practice of the revenue authorities on occasion to distrain upon the goods of a lodger in respect of the landlord's Income Tax assessed under Schedule A; and will he consider introducing a Clause in this year's Finance Bill to prevent this practice?
I am having this matter looked into.
Royal Commissions
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury how many Royal Commissions appointed by the present Government have as yet formulated their reports, and how many have not yet reported?
None of the six Royal Commissions appointed by the present Government has yet reported.
Can the hon. Gentleman give me any indication when the report of the Unemployment Insurance Commission will be ready?
I am afraid not.
King's Plates, Ireland
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury why the King's plates run in Ireland are paid for by the Exchequer of Great Britain; and what are the number and cost of these plates?
As explained by my predecessor on the 7th March, 1928, this payment has been voted annually by this House for nearly a hundred years, and in view of the special nature of the payment it was decided to continue it after the establishment of the Irish Free State and the Northern Ireland Government. The number of the plates is eight and the cost £1,563 a year.
Some of us would like to know whether these plates have anything to do with horse-racing and sweepstakes?
New School, Colwyn Bay
asked the President of the Board of Education whether any part of the cost of erecting the proposed new Roman Catholic public elementary school at Colwyn Bay will fall on public funds?
The answer is in the negative.
Irish Sweepstake
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will inquire as to the sources from which English holders of winning tickets in the Dublin sweepstake for the Grand National obtained their tickets, with a view to instituting proceedings against those who purchased tickets in this country?
It has not been the practice to institute proceedings against buyers of tickets, and I do not propose to suggest that the police should take any action.
Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to clarify the law so that individuals may know whether they are breaking the law or not?
The Courts determine what the law is, and, so far as the State Departments have a hand in the matter, it is their duty to adminster the law. It is the business of this House to clarify the law.
Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that he informed the House some time ago that he was willing to appoint a committee to go into this matter if there was a general demand, and is he not satisfied that there is a general demand that the law should be clarified?
I am satisfied that there is an increasing public interest in the matter, and my mind is not closed to the suggestion of my hon. Friend.
Is the Home Secretary not aware that hon. Members opposite are always growling about the Government setting up committees?
India
British Goods (Boycott and Export)
asked the Secretary of State for India whether in view of the terms of the agreement between the Viceroy and Mr. Gandhi, he will require an undertaking to be given by the agency company which is to purchase existing stocks of cotton goods for purposes of re-export that the vendors shall be left free to replenish their stocks by the purchase of further goods from Great Britain if they so desire?
As I understand that the Agency Company will deal only with those merchants who undertake to stop dealing in foreign cloth it would not seem to be possible to require from the company an undertaking of the nature indicated by the right hon. Member.
Does that mean that when the existing stocks have been cleared the merchants will not be allowed to import fresh British stocks?
I read out the conditions of membership of this company in answer to a question some time ago. Of course, people are free to join or not to join as they think fit.
Does that mean when their stocks are cleared, that they will not be able to replenish by buying from Great Britain?
I have given the terms of membership of this company of which that is one, but I add that people are free to join or not as they please.
Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that no pressure at all has been brought to bear upon them?
Is this still held to be within the terms of the Agreement?
I have already answered a question on that point.
Would the right hon. Gentleman mind answering it now?
Would my hon. and gallant Friend kindly look it up.
asked the Secretary of State for India whether he is able to make a statement as to any improvement in the effect of the boycott in respect of the sale of Lancashire cotton goods in India since the agreement was signed by His Excellency the Viceroy and Mr. Gandhi?
I have no fresh information. It is still too early to judge of the effect of the settlement.
Will the Secretary of State say when he thinks that he will be in a position to answer this question?
As soon as I have the figures I shall be glad to put them at the service of the House.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is nearly a month since the agreement was signed, and there has been no improvement?
The right hon. Gentleman must know that it takes some time for realised figures to be received.
Is no one going to protect the interests of Lancashire?
asked the Secretary of State for India whether he will obtain a list of the subscribers to the new agency company in India which will also give the occupation and amount subscribed in each case?
I will ask the Government of India to let me have such particulars as become available.
asked the Secretary of State for India whether the present boycott in India of foreign cotton and other goods is being indiscriminately applied, irrespective of the country of origin, or whether British goods are more seriously affected than those coming from Japan and other foreign countries?
I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a statement showing the actual figures for 1929 and 1930. As I stated on Wednesday last, it is still too early to estimate the effect of the settlement between the Viceroy and Mr. Gandhi.
Description of Goods. 1929. 1930. United Kingdom. Japan. United Kingdom. Increase or Decrease. Japan. Increase or Decrease. Cotton Piece Goods. (Millions of yards.) Grey Goods … … 532 374 291 45% Decrease 265 29% Decrease. White Goods … … 446 9 305 31% Decrease 26 200% Increase. Coloured Goods … 285 138 197 31% Decrease 99 28% Decrease. Average value per yard White Goods. 4 as. 6 ps. 4 as. 1p. 3 as. 11 ps. 7 ps. Decrease. 3 as. 1 p. 1 anna Decrease. Average value per yard of Cotton Piece Goods. — — — 6% Decrease — 18% Decrease. Cotton Twist and Yarn. Millions of lbs. weight 22 11 12 45% Decrease 8 27% Decrease. Average value per lb. in case of imports. — — — 2 as. 9 ps. Decrease. — 5 as. 6 ps. Decrease. Cigarettes. United States. United States. Thousands of lbs. weight. 4,926 13 3,471 30% Decrease 26 100% Increase. NOTE.—In the case of Grey Goods the decrease in imports from the United Kingdom was much larger than in the case of Japan, but as regards Coloured Goods imports from Japan declined almost to the same extent as from the United Kingdom. In White Goods, on the other hand, imports from Japan increased while imports from the United Kingdom declined considerably. The increase in imports of White Goods from Japan is partly due to the larger decrease in value.
Could not the right hon. Gentleman say here and now whether British goods are being more adversely affected than those coming from Japan and other foreign countries?
I have given the hon. and gallant Member all the particulars of realised figures, and I have added as regards the post-settlement period that it is too early to make an estimate.
If I put down another question soon after Easter, will the right hon. Gentleman be able to give me an answer?
As soon as I have any information, of course I will gladly put it at the disposal of the House.
Following is the statement:
Drugs, etc. Countries from whence imported. 1930. 1929. Percentage Increase or Decrease on 1929. Expressed in thousands of Rupees. United Kingdom … … … … 7,417 8,996 - 18 Germany … … … … … 4,580 3,761 + 22 Japan … … … … … … 1,630 2,876 - 43 United States of America … … … 2,215 2,273 - 2 Other Countries … … … … 4,200 3,851 + 9 Total … … … 20,042 21,757 - 8
Toilet Requisites. Countries from whence consigned. 1930. 1929. Percentage Decrease on 1929. Expressed in thousands of Rupees. United Kingdom … … … … 2,152 2,666 - 19 United States of America … … … 1,759 1,957 - 10 Other Countries … … … … 1,773 2,452 - 28 Total … … … 5,684 7,075 - 19
Miscellaneous. Percentage increase or decrease of certain goods imported into India, from (1) United Kingdom, (2) all other countries. (For 10 months 1st April, 1930 to 31st January, 1931.) (Based on quantities.) (Compared with 10 months 1st April, 1929 to 31st January, 1930.) — (1) (2) United Kingdom. All other conntries. Cement … … … … … … … - 21·2 + 15·5 Iron Bars, rods, angles shapes and sections … … - 37·7 - 4·6 Steel Bars, rods, angles shapes and sections … … - 38·0 - 55·8 Galvanised sheets (flat or corrugated) … … … - 53·4 + 13·3 Railway rails (new) … … … … … - 77·2 - 19·5 Values— Textile machinery … … … … … - 9·7 - 3·0 Values— Rail locomotives … … … … … … - 36·8 + 5·5 Values— Motor cars, etc. 1. Touring cars … … … … … - 25·6 - 38·0 2. Commercial vehicles … … … … - 2·7 - 46·7
Questions
League of Nations (Equal Rights)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will take steps to bring before the League of Nations a treaty giving equal rights to men and women throughout the terriories subject to the respective jurisdictions of members of the League?
Before they could raise this question at Geneva, it would be necessary for His Majesty's Government to approve of the complete application to this country of the principle of equal rights for men and women. My right hon. Friend is advised that the adoption of this principle would involve the introduction of highly controversial legislation, which might give rise in certain cases to situations of considerable difficulties and hardship.
Is the Under-Secretary of State not aware of the very great interest taken by the organised women in this country in this subject?
Yes, Sir, I am aware of it.
Is this House to understand from the answer given by the hon. Gentleman that the Government are not in favour of the principle of equal rights for women?
That is not what I said. This question ought to have been addressed to the Home Office. It was put down on the Paper to the Foreign Office because the League of Nations has been introduced into the wording of it; but primarily it is the Home Office and not the Foreign Office that settles policy on these matters.
Blind Persons Act
asked the Minister of Health what replies he has made to communications from local authorities urging that State financial assistance be granted to local authorities, in view of the increasing expenditure incurred by them in connection with schemes promoted under the provisions of Section 2 of the Blind Persons Act, 1930; and what action he proposes to take in this matter?
I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given on this subject on the 24th March to my hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead, West (Mr. Egan), of which I am sending him a copy.
Is the Minister of Health not going to consider this matter seriously in order to see if something cannot be done to relieve local authorities of this heavy burden?
The financial arrangements are as provided in the Local Government Act of 1929. I do not see any prospect of legislation being immediately introduced to amend that Act.
Northern and Southern Rhodesia (Amalgamation)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether a reply has yet been sent to the Government of Northern Rhodesia as to the question of the amalgamation with Southern Rhodesia?
This matter has been the subject of a recent telegram received through the Governor of Northern Rhodesia in which elected members asked far the views of His Majesty's Government during the present session of the Legislative Council. My Noble Friend has replied expressing his regret that it is impossible to state the views of His Majesty's Government before the Council rises. The matter is under active consideration.
Can the hon. Gentleman state when a decision is likely to be arrived at?
I am sorry that I cannot say exactly, but I do not think that it will be very long.
Hong Kong (Infant Mortality)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will state how many of the dead children picked up in the streets of Hong Kong were male and how many female in the most recent year for which the statistics are available?
The only available figures distinguishing between the sexes of dead children found in the streets of Hong Kong relate to children of three years and less. Of these there were in 1929 956 males and 768 females.
In any case is the hon. Gentleman not of opinion, that this question is more suitable for the Grand Guignol than for the House of Commons?
Haifa Railway (Survey)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will state when the survey of the Haifa Railway will be finished?
No date can yet be definitely fixed for the completion of the survey of the proposed railway from Haifa to Bagdad, but the consulting engineers hope that most of the field work will be completed early in the autumn and that their report will be ready by the end of the year.
Arthur Wheeler and Company (Failure)
asked the President of the Board of Trade if his attention has been called to the failure of the firm of Arthur Wheeler and Company, and the consequent hardship imposed upon persons who have paid this firm for both War Loan and shares, but have received neither transfers nor certificates; and if he will Call for a report from the official receiver and also devise means by legislation, or otherwise, to prevent outside dealers in stocks and shares from receiving payment before the delivery of stocks is concluded?
Attention has been called to this failure, and all the circumstances of it are being fully investigated, but it is not desirable to make any statement about any particular feature of it at the present moment.
Will the right hon. Gentleman see whether it is possible for the Board of Trade to take steps to ensure that shares in the possession of the bankrupt which have been paid for by clients shall be handed over to such clients instead of being realised for the benefit of the creditor banks?
It must be plain to the House, in view of yesterday's meeting, that that must be one of the innumerable questions to be dealt with in the investigation. I can only assure the House that that investigation will be of the most complete character.
Is not the question which has been raised by the hon. Member opposite of profound importance to the shareholders, and is he aware that there are several complaints of persons having purchased shares and discharged their obligation, and not having received delivery? What action is the right hon. Gentleman going to take in that regard?
Plainly, it is quite impossible for me to make myself responsible for any statement this afternoon. The whole position in connection with this failure must be very carefully investigated. That is being done, and it will be done with the least possible delay.
May we understand that the Board of Trade will itself look into the possibility of taking action in this matter apart from the mere investigation of the other banks?
Yes, the official receiver made it perfectly clear that the Board will be behind the most complete investigation, and I understand that it will cover all the circumstances of this case.
Wages
asked the Minister of Labour whether it is the intention of the Government to introduce legislation to establish minimum wages in the mining, steel, textile, engineering, agricultural, and other industries, and in the railway and other services?
No, Sir.
Is the Minister of Labour not aware that in the industries indicated—the mining, steel, textile, engineering, agricultural and other industries—wages have been lowered since this Government took control of the country? [ Interruption. ] Am I not entitled to a reply?
Poor Law (Stone-Breaking)
asked the Minister of Health on what grounds he is still prepared to permit the system of stone-breaking as task work; and whether, in accordance with his previous condemnation of this system, he will abolish it altogether?
As regards arrangements under the Relief Regulation Order, none of the schemes submitted to me provides for a task of mere stone-breaking, to which my right hon. Friend has taken exception, but in four instances a certain amount of useful work is being done in connection with quarries under the control of the authority. As regards tasks for casuals, under the new Casual Poor Order stone-breaking will cease as from to-morrow to be among the tasks prescribed, and my right hon. Friend will not be prepared to approve any proposal to introduce a task of stone-breaking of the ordinary type.
Housing, Plymouth
asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that the housing committee of the Plymouth City Council have decided to adhere to the five years' programme for the Plymouth Corporation housing scheme; and whether, seeing that this amounts to a refusal to comply with the Minister's request for an accelerated programme, he will say what action he intends to take to induce the Plymouth City Council to make a more rapid provision for the persons in Devonport and Plymouth who are compelled to live in overcrowded or unsatisfactory conditions.
No, Sir; my right hon. Friend has not yet received from the corporation the further communication which, as he stated in reply to a previous question put by the hon. Member, he is awaiting from them. The second part of the question, therefore, does not at present arise.
Business of the House
May I ask the Prime Minister what the business will be on the resumption after the Easter holidays; and perhaps he will be good enough at the same time to tell the House whether, in the event of his Motion being carried, he proposes tonight to take any other business than the first Order?
On Tuesday, 14th April, the business will be Supply (5th Allotted Day). The Ministry of Health Vote will be put down for consideration in Committee.
On Wednesday, 15th April: Town and Country Planning Bill, Second Reading, and Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolution.
On Thursday, 16th April: Motion of Censure.
Friday, 17th April, will be a private Members' day.
On any day, should time permit, other Orders may be taken.
With reference to the business to-day, it is proposed to-night to dispose of the four Votes in Committee of Supply which are on the Order Paper, and, if there is time, the Committee and further stages of the Yarmouth Naval Hospital Bill, which, I understand, raises no very controversial question. That will be as time permits.
I take it that the right hon. Gentleman will not bring the Yarmouth Naval Hospital Bill on if it should be at a late hour?
No. I cannot commit myself to Eleven o'Clock—
No.
but it will not be at an inordinately late hour. We really will study the convenience of the House.
There is one point to which I should like to draw the Prime Minister's attention, and which perhaps he will be good enough to consider. I do not suppose that he can answer now. With regard to the Town and Country Planning Bill, I see that the Government have put down the Committee stage of the Money Resolution for the same evening as the Second Reading. The Town and Country Planning Bill is a very large Bill, and, although I am quite aware that a considerable proportion of it consists of re-enactments, it is a subject which is of great interest to the generality of Members in all quarters of this House. I am perfectly certain that, if the Government desire to bring the proceedings on the Second Reading to a close at any normal hour on the Wednesday, the Debate may run for a long time on the Financial Resolution, because a great many Members all over the House will want to speak, and I do not think it would be practicable to take the Committee stage of the Financial Resolution, as well as the Second Reading, on one day.
I shall be very much obliged if the right hon. Gentleman will just look at the Money Resolution. It is a very narrow point upon which money is required, and we can enter into negotiations later on. I think it is a very small point, which
will be confined within extremely narrow limits.
Motion made, and Question put,
"That the Proceedings on Government Business be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[ The Prime Minister. ]
The House divided: Ayes, 237; Noes, 112.
Division No. 207.] AYES. [3.48 p.m. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Gray, Milner Mansfield, W. Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne) March, S. Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Marcus, M. Ammon, Charles George Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.) Marley, J. Angell, Sir Norman Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Marshall, Fred Arnott, John Groves, Thomas E. Mathers, George Ayles, Walter Grundy, Thomas W. Matters, L. W. Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Maxton, James Barnes, Alfred John Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) Messer, Fred Barr, James Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.) Middleton, G. Batey, Joseph Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn) Millar, J. D. Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood Hardie, George D. Mills, J. E. Bennett, Sir E. N. (Cardiff, Central) Hastings, Dr. Somerville Milner, Major J. Bennett, William (Battersea, South) Haycock, A. W. Montague, Frederick Benson, G. Hayes, John Henry Morley, Ralph Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale) Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Morris, Rhys Hopkins Blindell, James Henderson, Arthur, junr. (Cardiff, S.) Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh) Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.) Bowen, J. W. Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.) Broad, Francis Alfred Herriotts, J. Mort, D. L. Bromfield, William Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth) Muff, G. Bromley, J. Hoffman, P. C. Muggeridge, H. T. Brooke, W. Hollins, A. Murnin, Hugh Brothers, M. Hopkin, Daniel Naylor, T. E. Brown, C. W. E. (Notts, Mansfield) Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Brown, Ernest (Leith) Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R. Noel Baker, P. J. Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire) Isaacs, George Noel-Buxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N.) Burgess, F. G. Jenkins, Sir William Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston) Buxton, C. R. (Yorks, W. R. Elland) John, William (Rhondda, West) Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley) Cape, Thomas Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne) Owen, Major G. (Carnarvon) Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.) Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Owen, H. F. (Hereford) Charleton, H. C. Jowitt, Sir W. A. (Preston) Palin, John Henry Chater, Daniel Kelly, W. T. Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Church, Major A. G. Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas Perry, S. F. Cluse, W. S. Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Kinley, J. Phillips, Dr. Marion Compton, Joseph Kirkwood, D. Picton-Turbervill, Edith Cove, William G. Knight, Holford Pole, Major D. G. Daggar, George Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton) Potts, John S. Dallas, George Lang, Gordon Price, M. P. Dalton, Hugh Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George Pybus, Percy John Davies, D. L. (Pontypridd) Lathan, G. Quibell, D. J. K. Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Law, Albert (Bolton) Ramsay, T. B. Wilson Day, Harry Law, A. (Rossendale) Raynes, W. R. Denman, Hon. R. D. Lawrence, Susan Richards, R. Dudgeon, Major C. R. Lawson, John James Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Dukes, C. Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle) Riley, Ben (Dewsbury) Ede, James Chuter Lees, J. Ritson, J. Edge, Sir William Lewis, T. (Southampton) Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) Edmunds, J. E. Lloyd, C. Ellis Romeril, H. G. Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Longbottom, A. W. Rosbotham, D. S. T. Edwards, E. (Morpeth) Longden, F. Rowson, Guy Egan, W. H. Lovat-Fraser, J. A. Salter, Dr. Alfred Elmley, Viscount Lunn, William Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen) Freeman, Peter MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham) Samuel, H. Walter (Swansea, West) Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw) Sanders, W. S. Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.) McElwee, A. Sawyer, G. F. George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd (Car'vn) McEntee, V. L. Shakespeare, Geoffrey H. George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) McGovern, J. (Glasgow, Shettleston) Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Gibson, H. M. (Lancs. Mossley) McKinlay, A. Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Gill, T. H. Maclean, Sir Donald (Cornwall, N.) Sherwood, G. H. Gillett, George M. Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Shield, George William Glassey, A. E. Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Shiels, Dr. Drummond Gossling, A. G. Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Shillaker, J. F. Gould, F. Mander, Geoffrey le M. Shinwell, E. Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Manning, E. L. Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Simmons, C. J. Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln) Wellock, Wilfred Sinclair, Sir A. (Caithness) Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.) Welsh, James (Paisley) Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby) Westwood, Joseph Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) White, H. G. Smith, Lees-, H. B. Tillett, Ben Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood) Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Tout, W. J. Wilkinson, Ellen C. Smith, Tom (Pontefract) Townend, A. E. Williams, David (Swansea, East) Smith, W. R. (Norwich) Vaughan, David Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Snowden, Thomas (Accrington) Viant, S. P. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Sorensen, R. Walkden, A. G. Winterton, G. E. (Leicester. Loughb'gh) Stamford, Thomas W. Walker, J. Wise, E. F. Stephen, Campbell Wallace, H. W. Strauss, G. R. Watkins, F. C. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Sullivan, J. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Mr. Paling and Mr. Thurtle.
NOES. Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel. Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Rawson, Sir Cooper Albery, Irving James Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Reid, David D. (County Down) Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley) Gault, Lieut.-Col. A. Hamilton Reynolds, Col. Sir James Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Glyn, Major R. G. C. Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall) Bellairs, Commander Carlyon Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Ruggles-Brise, Colonel E. Berry, Sir George Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Betterton, Sir Henry B. Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Salmon, Major I. Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman Gunston, Captain D. W. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W. Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Savery, S. S. Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C. (Berks, Newb'y) Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford) Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome Buchan, John Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Simms, Major-General J. Butler, R. A. Henderson, Capt. R.R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Skelton, A. N. Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) Campbell, E. T. Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller Smithers, Waldron Cautley, Sir Henry S. Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East) Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.) Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J.A. (Birm., W.) Inskip, Sir Thomas Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A. Chapman, Sir S. Knox, Sir Alfred Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton) Christie, J. A. Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Thompson, Luke Clydesdale, Marquess of Law, Sir Alfred (Derby, High Peak) Tinne, J. A. Colfox, Major William Philip Lewis, Oswald (Colchester) Titchfield, Major the Marques of Colville, Major D. J. Lockwood, Captain J. H. Todd, Capt. A. J. Cranborne, Viscount Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Crichton-Stuart, Lord C. Margesson, Captain H. D. Turton, Robert Hugh Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Marjoribanks, Edward Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West) Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey) Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Wells, Sydney R. Dugdale, Capt. T. L. Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester) Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay) Eden, Captain Anthony Muirhead, A. J. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Elliot, Major Walter E. Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W.G. (Ptrsf'ld) Womersley, W. J. Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.) Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley Falle, Sir Bertram G. O'Connor, T. J. Ferguson, Sir John O'Neill, Sir H. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Fermoy, Lord Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William Major Sir George Hennessy and Fielden, E. B. Pownall, Sir Assheton Sir Frederick Thomson. Ford, Sir P. J. Ramsbotham, H.
New Member Sworn
Luke Thompson, esquire, for Borough of Sunderland.
Public Petitions
First Report of the Select Committee brought up, and read.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Standing Orders
Resolutions reported from the Select Committee:
1. "That, in the case of the London County Council (General Powers) Bill, Petition for additional Provision, the Standing
2. "That, in the case of the London Midland and Scottish Railway Bill, Petition for additional Provision, the Standing Orders ought to be dispensed with:—That the parties be permitted to insert their additional Provision if the Committee on the Bill think fit."
Resolutions agreed to.
Architects (Registration) Bill
Reported, with Amendments, from Standing Committee A.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Minutes of Proceedings to be printed.
Bill, as amended ( in the Standing Committee ), to be considered upon Friday, 17th April, and to be printed. [Bill 120.]
Selection (Standing Committees)
Standing Committee A
Mr. William Nicholson reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee A: Mr. Blindell; and had appointed in substitution: Mr. Llewellyn-Jones.
Mr. William Nicholson further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following Member to Standing Committee A: Mr. David Davies.
Standing Committee C
Mr. William Nicholson further reported from the Committee; That they had discharged the following Members from Standing Committee C: Mr. Charleton, Mr. Galbraith, and Mr. Reid; and had appointed in substitution: Captain Cazalet, Captain Eden, and Mr. Morley.
Mr. William Nicholson further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following Ten Members to Standing Committee C (in respect of the British Museum and National Gallery (Overseas Loans) Bill [ Lords ]): Lord Balniel, Mr. Benson, Mr. Denman, Mr. Mander, Mr. Markham, Mr. Ormsby-Gore, Mr. Pethick-Lawrence, Mr. Richards, Sir Rennell Rodd and Mr. Godfrey Wilson.
Reports to lie upon the Table.
Selection (London Passenger Transport Bill) (Joint Committee)
Mr. William Nicholson reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had nominated the following Five Members to serve on the Joint Committee of Lords and Commons on the London Passenger Transport Bill: Sir Henry Cautley, Mr. Hopkin, Mr. Leach, Sir Basil Peto and Mr. Ernest Simon.
Report to lie upon the Table.
Orders of the Day
Supply
Civil Estimates and Estimates for Revenue Departments, 1931
Order for Committee read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."—[ Mr. T. Kennedy. ]
National and Local Expenditure
I beg to move to leave out from the word "That," to the end of the Question, and to add instead thereof the words:
This is a comprehensive but modest indictment of the views of omission and commission of the Socialist Government. May I say at the outset on behalf of my hon. and learned Friend and myself how much we regret the causes that prevent the Chancellor of the Exchequer being in his place and how glad we were to hear that he will be here to deliver in person the Budget speech. I cannot help thinking that a Budget without the Chancellor would be like Hamlet without the Prince. Since the House reassembled after Christmas, we have discussed many academic subjects. We have been rather a debating society than a Council of State. We have avoided the subject of unemployment and economy as far as possible. I cannot help thinking that when the Prime Minister was arranging his programme of work for the Session, he advised the Whips' Office to take their cue from Lewis Carroll, and to remember the words in "Alice in Wonderland": distasteful; in public affairs it is always unpopular. When we were children we were taught in fiction to admire the old gentleman philanthropist and to despise the miser, but the philanphropist at the country's expense can be a greater danger to the public than the miser who wisely conserves the finances of the country. Many hon. Members opposite, if they will allow me to say so, are the philanthropists, the benevolent old gentlemen of both sexes who really believe that it is possible to distribute largesse without upsetting the financial equilibrium of this nation. I would like them to recognise that I shall in no way attack their motives. It is not their hearts but their heads I distrust. But I will refrain from pointing out where the roadway paved with good intentions leads to. I do not intend to describe in detail the economic position of the country. My hon. and learned Friend who is to follow me will touch on that subject with that clarity of thought which he always shows in this House.
What is our position briefly? We are faced with increased burdens and decreased resources. A private individual, when he knows that his income has declined, reduces his expenditure, but the combination of individuals masquerading as the Government on the benches opposite have proceeded in the opposite way. The more that income declines, the more they pile on the burden. They have not even attempted to economise. This is a serious Debate, and we expect a considerable reply from the Financial Secretary. It is no good for him to say that the Conservatives were no better. The tu quoque argument was considered bad form at school; it is insufficient in the House of Commons. Moreover, it is not true. The late Chancellor of the Exchequer incurred the enmity of hon. Members opposite when he had the courage to introduce his Economy Bill. He had the courage to attempt to raid the Road Fund and to demonstrate the falsity of the claim that the pampered motorists could themselves dictate how the money they paid would be spent. Since the Conservative Administration, the position has changed. The country has suffered a catastrophe and a fatality. The catastrophe is an economic blizzard, and the calamity is a Labour Government—both destructive weapons sufficient to sink any ship. The fact that we are still floating against the simultaneous impact of these two torpedoes is a tribute to the buoyancy of British private enterprise. But the position is considerably worse than it was last year, and last year it was bad enough. Nobody, I think, has described the position better than the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his broadcast message to the United States and Canada in March last year. He said:
In spite of the serious position last year, the Government have continued in their policy of squandermania. We had the education Measure which was to cost "£8,000,000, or was it £9,000,000?" in the cynical words of the late Minister of Education. We have had the Land (Utilisation) Bill which may cost millions, not to help people on the land, but to put people on to the land when people who are living there already cannot make a living out of it. We have fresh commitments in face of declining trade and a falling revenue. Company after company are passing their dividends. That may be good news to the implacable enemies of private enterprise opposite, but it is cold comfort to the Chancellor of the Exchequer when from those dividends he has got to draw his revenue. I cannot help feeling that the Chancellor is under no delusion as to the effect of excessive expenditure on our industrial position. In February of this year, in the House of Commons, the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave this warning: speech was made. Unemployment figures have mounted to a great extent since then. I am going to repeat the question, and I want an answer this afternoon: Does the Financial Secretary think that there is still an ample margin of taxable wealth available, and that large additionl sums can be extracted from the taxpayer without doing incalculable harm? We are entitled to know whether the Government stand by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, or whether they stand by the Financial Secretary. I think that many people in the country and on the benches opposite are beginning to realise that, however desirable social Measures may be, they have got to be paid for out of the earnings of the people. I remember one of the tragedies of my childhood was when an unkind elder brother told me that there was no such person as Father Christmas, and that my presents were provided by my parents. I suggest it is time that hon. Members opposite dropped the Santa Claus complex. Their fairy sledge is empty. The reindeers have fled, and all the wizards in Wales cannot fill that sledge.
We have often been taunted with talking about economy and having no practical suggestions to make. Of course, a back bencher can be more bold, and therefore I am going to make a few suggestions this afternoon which, I believe, might result in some economy. I am afraid that most of the Debates in the past have not led to much saving of public money. The first thing with which we have got to deal is normal growth. Governments in their wisdom institute legislation which is to cost a certain amount in the year, and that legislation has a curious habit that it costs more and more as the years go on. I suggest, that if you do not sow the seed you will not have an embarrassing harvest to reap, and I think it is time that the Government declared for the time being, at any rate, that there must be a halt in all future legislation. I am reinforced in that view by an article written by Mr. Appleton, who, I believe, is the general secretary of the Federation of Trade Unions. The article appeared in "Lloyd's Bank Review." He said: congé, for which relief much thanks. But, of course, the champion of all is the Minister of Agriculture. We are suffering under his housing policy, and, unless the Chancellor of the Exchequer is careful, future generations will groan under his ridiculous Land Acts. I suggest that, with the exception of the excellent Clauses dealing with allotments, the Government should say to the right hon. Gentleman that not one penny shall be given to him for his Agricultural Land (Utilisation) Bill.
I want to save the time of the House and I may have a chance later on of suggesting some small economies. One could get more money by grants-in-aid for the various services, and also, I believe, considerable economy could be obtained from an alteration in our policy with regard to the island of Nauru. They are small things, and I want to hit at bigger game this afternoon. I understand that I should be out of order if I suggested legislation, and I am therefore going to suggest to the Financial Secretary that he should ask Sir George May's Committee—and I hope that their report will be acted upon when it is published—to consider two subjects; first of all, whether it would not be a great economy to amalgamate the police forces in this country? Mr. Croft in "Lloyd's Bank Review" suggests that we can save £500,000 on those lines, and I suggest that it is something that is worth exploring.
There is another suggestion by the same writer, that the committee should explore how much saving could be effected if we were to amalgamate various Ministries and abolish various Ministries. It is suggested that there would be great saving if we amalgamated the Board of Trade with the Department of Overseas Trade, the Ministry of Labour, the Ministry of Transport and the Ministry of Mines under one common head known as the Ministry of Industry. I believe it would be a great saving, for this reason, that every Minister, no matter what Government is in power, has to do the best for his Department. Therefore, when the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the day demands economies, the Minister has to do his best to resist those economies on behalf of the Department. A former Chancellor of the Exchequer, I believe, once said that a Chancellor of the Exchequer could fight one Ministry at a time, but he could not fight two. I suggest that if you abolished or amalgamated certain Ministries the Chancellor of the Exchequer would have a much greater chance of getting his way. I would say in passing that that would mean that many hon. Members opposite would disappear from the Front Bench. That would be a very great calamity to us who sit and listen to them, but I believe that the country would be prepared to make even such a great sacrifice as that.
I wish to suggest an economy which, I believe, would really be a great economy, not only in local taxation but in national taxation as well. I should be out of order if I suggested that we should raid the Road Fund, but I believe that administratively it is possible for the Chancellor of the Exchequer not to raid the Road Fund but to prevent the money being spent out of the Road Fund. I believe that one of the most wasteful policies that we have entered into has been our road policy since the War. I can claim a little courage in advocating this point of view, because I sit for a constituency where there are many stone quarries, and I know that it will not be popular, but we have to face the facts. We are spending over £50,000,000 a year on our roads, and we have spent over £500,000,000 since the War on our roads in England and Wales, not including Scotland. The amount of money it has cost has given very little employment, and it has not been a policy which has been demanded by the local authorities.
I will give one example by way of illustration. The Ministry of Transport last year had a bright idea that it would be a great thing to widen the Bath Road where it runs through Wiltshire. Everybody who is familiar with that road knows that it is wide enough, and that there is no traffic congestion. The local authorities did not want it. The Minister of Transport by a grant of 80 per cent. bribed them to do the work, thereby ruining one of our historical highways. Could there be a greater example of bureaucracy gone mad than that? At the same time that this vast sum of money has been extracted from the ratepayers and taxpayers, the prosperity of our railways has been destroyed. It seems incredible that the taxpayers and ratepayers should be contributing this money at one end of the scale, while at the other end, as we read in our papers to-day, there are difficulties on the railway and the necessity for accepting lower wages because of the competition of the road traffic.
The Government should seriously consider the whole of our road policy, and whether it would not be wise, owing to the urgency of the position, to say that we will finish the roads which have been commenced but no fresh roads will be started. I should call a halt to our schemes for the artificial creation of work. I believe that they give very little work, but cost an enormous amount of money. We have spent a large sum—I have not the total by me—in well-intentioned endeavours to help the unemployed. The late Chancellor of the Exchequer once informed us in this House that the Treasury view was, that when you spent money on these temporary schemes, the real effect was to take money out of its natural channels, and that for every man you put to work you probably put two men or more out of permanent employment. I am reinforced in that view by a very interesting speech which was made by the hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benson) the other day in this House. I think that some of the most interesting speeches are made by back benchers, and, unfortunately, they do not always receive sufficient publicity. He gave some very interesting figures. He said that the Government claimed directly and indirectly to have put 200,000 men into work in three years at a cost of £150,000,000, while he pointed out, at the same time, that unemployment insurance would maintain 2,650,000 men at a cost of £115,000,000. This is an enormous difference between the two totals. He also pointed out that it cost four and a-half times as much to put a man into temporary work, which might be unnecessary, as to keep him on unemployment insurance. No wonder that my hon. Friend came to this conclusion:
Hon. Members opposite, I suppose, would take the view that if they cannot get more money by taxation, they feel that they can always borrow. Australia has gone in for extensive borrowing, and I hope that Australia's example will be a lesson. There was a letter in the "Times" the other day from a French writer who said that England still lives in her happy valleys divorced from realities, hoping that she would muddle through as she always had in the past. I do not believe that we have ever muddled through. We did not muddle through in the late War. We won the War by re-organisation and by telling the people the truth. [ Laughter. ] If my hon. Friends on the Mount will look up the records of the last War they will find that the censorship was lighter in this country, and that we could afford to tell this country when we suffered disasters while other countries could not do so. We have to face realities and tell the people what we have to do. The Government are not being judged. They were condemned long ago. They are only waiting for the General Election and for the knife to fall. But this House is on trial. Public opinion has not the respect for Parliament it used to have. It depends very much if we are going to maintain the respect of Parliamentary institutions whether we have the courage to handle such problems as this believing we have to do our duty however unpleasant it may be. We all know from personal experience that any fool can waste money.
And any fool can get it!
Squandering wealth makes no call either upon character or ability. It is an easy course, the broad way, which the weakest man amongst us can stumble down. To conserve, to create, it requires strength of mind and robustness of character. It it difficult, but when the country's need is great, the country calls for those who can do what is difficult. If the Government have not the courage to tell the country the truth and face realities, let them hand over the reins of Government to those who will take the people into their confidence and lead them along the difficult but only path to economic recuperation.
I beg to second the Amendment.
It would take the eloquence of Demosthenes to arouse any enthusiasm upon a subject as drastic as that of national economy, and I think that Demosthenes would have to be supercharged to arouse the Labour party to enthusiasm upon the subject. Nevertheless, like so many subjects which are by their nature somewhat dreary and trite, there is no subject at the present moment which is being more scrutinised by the people of this country whatever their representatives in the House of Commons on the other side may think. We are at the present moment seeking to weather the worst economic blizzard in the history of the world. We are always hearing about the economic blizzard from the other side. What we complain about on this side of the House is that, with the exception of a few grave words by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, which have not been implemented in any respect, so far as I can discover, the Government show no appreciation of the real gravity of the position. They allow this country to go staggering on almost towards something in the nature of financial bankruptcy, and all that their supporters can find to do when the subject of economy is raised in this House, is to snigger, sneer and jeer. To change the metaphor from blizzards to steeple-chasing, at times when the horse finds his obstacles excessive and his burden too great, the wise jockey or the wise owner lightens his burden. At the present time, however, the Chancellor of the Exchequer has gravely added to the country's burdens. He added £45,000,000 to national expenditure in his last Budget. As if that were not sufficient, he has borrowed another £35,000,000, which really ought to come into the revenue returns. He has increased the Civil Service alone by not less than thirty millions. When the fall in prices is taken into account, the weight of the national burden at the present time is incomparably greater than it was at this time last year.
Does the hon. Member say that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has increased the cost of the Civil Service by £30,000,000?
If I said pounds, I meant personnel. I meant thirty thousand persons. I meant that he had increased the nation's burden by £45,000,000, that he had borrowed over £35,000,000, and that he had increased the personnel of the Civil Service at this time of national distress by no fewer than 30,000 persons. What are other countries doing in face of the economic blizzard? They are re-equipping themselves and paring down their commitments as far as they possibly can in order to be able to take advantage of the revival in trade when the blizzard is over, but we on this side of the House are afraid that the position in this country seems to show that we are strangled economically; that we are economically inflexible and static in two ways. First, we have the inflexible condition of Government expenditure. We have various contractual obligations which successive Governments have to carry out with those with whom they have made their contracts. Secondly, there is the inflexibility of the trade union outlook, which refuses to countenance any interference with nominal wage rates.
If British industry is to survive, we must reconsider our position with regard both to the commitments of the Government and with regard to the outlook of the trade unions as to nominal wages, otherwise we shall find that when the economic blizzard is over other countries which have used this period for the purpose of cutting down their costs, will beat us in the competitive race which we shall have to face. The competition is not going to be diminished after the blizzard has passed; it is going to be increased. All the machinery of production and all the energy of productive power are still there, unimpaired, ready to compete in the markets of the world as soon as the reviving price index brings back the first glimmers of reviving trade. We alone, owing to economic inflexibility on the Government's side and on the trade union side, may find ourselves left at the post when the race begins.
Let us look for a moment at some of the fundamental and practical burdens on industry. I am not now talking about burdens which bear indirectly on industry but which bear directly on industry. The employers' contributions to the Unemployment Insurance Fund, Widows' Pensions, and Workmen's Compensation clearly come under that head, and they amount to £55,000,000. The workers' contributions amount to another £40,000,000. The tax on companies' reserves has been estimated at £40,000,000. To this, we have to add £7,500,000, levied directly by local rates. The sum of these figures amounts to £142,500,000, bearing directly and inexorably on the shoulders of industry, whether industry is making profit or not, in good times and in bad times. That is obviously a very serious burden. The burden of pensions, also, rests very largely upon industry and amounts to £115,000,000. This is a burden which has been aptly described by the "Times" newspaper as the burden of non-producers who are being supported by the producers.
Let me turn to the question of the capital resources of the nation and how we are dealing with our capital requirements. Capital, whether in a Socialist or a capitalist State, must continue to be the life-blood of industry, and until we can substitute for the private reservoirs of capital something in the nature of a public reservoir of capital, it is still to the private reservoirs that the industries of this country must look for their re-equipment and competitive power. How are those reservoirs being treated? I could understand a Socialist Government if it said, "We will create our own pools for the re-invigoration of industry. We will create our own funds with which to equip and improve the position of industry, and enable it to compete in the world." But I cannot understand the state of mind which merely depletes these reservoirs, merely dissipates our reserves and which does nothing whatever to build them up. Lord Lothian, a convert to the principles in regard to this matter, points out that at the present time, over £200,000,000 is being taken in the form of Death Duties, Super-tax and Income Tax, which are direct taxes upon capital. No one will dispute that the £89,000,000 of Death Duties are a direct tax upon capital, or that something like two-thirds of the Super-tax is a direct tax upon capital. These three taxes between them, the Super-tax to the extent of two-thirds, the Income Tax to the extent of one-third and the whole of the Death Duties represent a drain upon the capital resources of the nation which will prevent agriculture and industry generally from re-equipping itself and competing, and are a direct cause of unemployment.
There is a question which faces us on this side of the House whenever economy is suggested, and not inaptly. It is said at once that the greatest burden of all is the burden of the National Debt. That is true, but what hope have you of dealing with the National Debt if, at one and the same time, you place a direct burden upon the people in the way of increased Income Tax? In order to tackle the National Debt the restoration of confidence is essential. One step which the Chancellor of the Exchequer took which rendered it impossible for any conversion operations, was the gigantic increase of direct taxation with which he burdened the country last year. He missed the omnibus a few months later, and I do not see very much chance of his catching up with the omnibus again. When one considers the National Debt one also considers the potential savings which are predominant in any discussions on national economy, and I would ask the Financial Secretary to the Treasury if he will deal with one or two features which I suggest are worthy of attention in connection with statutory obligation.
There is, first of all, nearly £800,000,000 worth of 3½ per cent. Conversion Loan. I think I am right in saying that that loan is subject to a 1 per cent. Sinking Fund each half year as long as the loan stands under 90, and that the service of that Sinking Fund absorbs £16,000,000 a year. There is £350,000,000 worth of Consolidated 4 per cent. loan repayable in 1957 and afterwards of which according to the prospectus £2,500,000 worth is cancelled each quarter day while below par. At the present time that loan stands at 89½ whereas the 3½ per cent. Conversion Loan stands at 79½. I believe that the service for the Sinking Fund purposes of both these loans could be eliminated by a dramatic reduction of direct taxation. The real way of putting the Conversion Loan up to 90 and the 4 per cent. Consolidated Loan up to 100 is to make a dramatic reduction of the nature of 1s. in the £ on the Income Tax. That is the only way in which we could really tackle the question of reducing the overhead burden of the National Debt. It is like "Alice in Wonderland" or "Alice through the Looking-glass." It is a fact that the only way to reduce the overhead burden on your debt is to attempt to reduce the taxation upon the interest that is paid on the Debt. There is no other way by which you can raise the nominal value of your loans. Any other way is only facing disaster.
Turning to the social services. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I am glad that hon. Members opposite are as anxious as we are on this side of the House to see that reasonable efficiency is observed in the conduct of the social services. At the present time those services are absorbing something in the neighbourhood of £350,000,000 of our National Revenue. Up to date it has been deemed to be possible to meet the main burden of these services out of what one might describe as surplus income—income in the pockets of those who have a surplus, but the moment is approaching with great rapidity, and the longer the present Government stay in the greater will be the rapidity, when social services will have to be paid for out of wages. We are getting really down to the knuckle nowadays, and within an appreciable time we shall not be able to meet the cost of social services without inflicting a definite burden upon the wage-earners as such. I would ask hon. Members opposite whether any of them are prepared to go to the country and to advocate reductions of wages for the purpose of meeting the social services? We hear a good deal about the duties and ideals of communal expenditure in this country, but the real acid test is, are you prepared to ask the people to suffer reductions of wages in order that the Government may spend money on their behalf by way of social services?
There is one thing we might have expected in the Estimates before the House, and that is that there should be no increase in the social services. What do we find? The cost of education is up by £3,250,000. One is tempted to ask why? I am, not speaking of the increase due to the Bill which met so unkindly a fate in another place, but the increased cost of the existing education service. The Burnham scale is due to expire next March, and I should like to bear from the Financial Secretary whether the Government have any policy as regards the Burnham scale? There has been a fall in prices in the past year amounting certainly to not less than 10 per cent. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has enforced a cut upon the bonus of the Civil Service. Has he any policy as regards the Burnham scale? If not, what is his reason for proposing at this stage to saddle the already swollen Estimates for education with a further addition of £3,250,000?
I would ask the hon. Member to bear in mind that the Burnham scale was settled by negotiation between the representatives of the local authorities and the recognised bodies of teachers. It has always been so, and will be so in the new negotiations.
I am aware of that, but I am anxious to know the policy of the Government. Have the Government any views on this subject? This, obviously, directly concerns the taxpayers and the ratepayers, for we are paying £82,000,000 a year for our elementary education system. The Burnham Scale falls for expiry in March next: have the Government any policy? No one can doubt that they have the influence and the responsibility. The bulk of the increase which we have to face this year is the growing burden of unemployment insurance and the dole—£117,000,000, which has been described by the "Times" as a running sore. What we object to in the case of these enormous sums of money sufficient to unbalance any Budget or any economic plan is that the Government are postponing the topic, adjourning it sine die, and have set up the statutory method of delaying inquiry, a Royal Commission; and have put no ginger into the Royal Commission. The Commission is sitting under the presidency of a judge, who has other duties to perform, and while the expenditure under this head is going on at the rate of £2,250,000 per week, no effort is made to expedite the report of the Commission or even to obtain an interim report.
As regards the Estimates before the House, the Ministry of Labour Estimates show that they have simply thrown up the sponge and given up all attempts at any constructive methods for dealing with unemployment. With regard to the sole side, the out-payment side, there is an increase amounting to over £8,250,000 under the Vote for transference and training, and the training of women. I see that the Estimate for transference is to be reduced by £118,000. If ever there was a need for transference it is to-day, and if ever there was a need for training the young unemployed that need exists to-day. Yet that Estimate is reduced by £315,000 and for the training of women by £2,000. We are presented with 10 Estimates, and after we have moved you out of the Chair, Mr. Speaker, we shall proceed to discuss some of them. The increase over these 10 Estimates is £8,402,000, but that does not show the true picture. The total would be far more alarming but for the reductions which have taken place, and it is interesting to see where these reductions have occurred. The Overseas Settlement Estimate has been reduced by £700,000 at a time when, above all others, you want to stimulate the migration of people to the less populated countries of the Empire. Trade and industry also suffer to the extent of £4,264,000, and allowing for these two decreases in constructive estimates, the real total of the increases due to the dole is not much less than £15,500,000.
What of the future? The method of the Chancellor of the Exchequer would appear to be to collect a greater revenue from a smaller income. Economists have estimated that 509 companies show a decline of 18 per cent. in their profits. There is also a net fall in railway revenue of about £7,250,000, and meanwhile the real burden of public expenditure is increased at least by 10 per cent. owing to the fall in prices. What of the future? There are three alternatives. There is an unbalanced Budget. Does the Financial Secretary contemplate this? Surely, he is alive to the fact that the burdens of this country are being borne by our overseas investments, and that the interest we receive from these is the only way by which we are able to sustain without bankruptcy the deplorable position in which we find ourselves. If you shake that credit, you damage the national structure to its foundations. On a previous occasion I said that in conversation with some of the most eminent men in the business and commercial world on the Continent I was told they were looking with grave apprehension as to whether the pound was going to hold its own or not. I do not think a financial purist like the Financial Secretary to the Treasury will for a moment contemplate the prosspect of an unbalanced Budget.
What is the second alternative? An increase of the burdens on industry, which his Leader has declared to be intolerable. That is not to be thought of. What is the third alternative? There is no question as to what one would like to do, indeed it is an absolute necessity—the third alternative lies in economising upon the services the Government have to perform. For my part, I conceive it to be completely idle to say that in a Budget of about £900,000,000 there is no scope for economy. There is the road expenditure. We could stop every penny of road expenditure beyond that to which we are committed, and nobody would be a bit worse off. While I cannot go into the question as to how I would employ any man who lost his occupation on the arterial roads, I may say that we could re-employ every one of these men if we turned the Post Office into a public utility company and guaranteed them a loan for the purposes of putting the telephone and telegraph wires underground.
Lip service to economy is not enough. We want to know the real constructive propositions of the Government to meet this national situation. We were told by the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the Cabinet proposed to show the way by cutting down their salaries, but I cannot find a trace of any Cabinet Minister who has cut down his salary—and they will not travel third-class. I apprehend that the Chancellor of the Exchequer found that the Cabinet was on strike—a stay-in strike. They have performed a go-slow strike; now they are doing a stay-in strike. Democracy has to face this subject if it is to survive, and if Parliamentary government as we know it is to survive. If our Parliamentary system does not show itself resilient and strong enough to resist the temptations of people, then a new method of dealing with the financial position of the country will have to be devised, and that method may have to be achieved through travail and tears.
The hon. and gallant Member who has moved the Amendment referred to the arterial roads, and the great expenditure which has been incurred upon them, but he forgot the fact that during the War local authorities were advised not to spend more money upon the roads than they could help, and that for five years the roads were neglected. Then came the opportunity of putting the roads in order, and it not only found employment for many of the unemployed, but it also had the effect of making the roads safer for travel and transport. But that work costs money. Those who have mechanical vehicles have to pay a heavy tax towards the upkeep of the roads, and the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, who is a bold man, took money wherever he could find it, and he took large sums of money from the Road Fund, which meant that the roads were again neglected. I notice that Sir Eric Geddes, who was once Minister of Transport, stated quite recently that £83,000,000 has been taken from the Road Fund by various Governments, and that is money which has been contributed by the people using the roads and should have been used for the upkeep of the roads.
We want good roads in this country, and we have not too many of them. We want not only new arterial roads but by-pass roads, and we must also strengthen and renew the bridges, otherwise heavy traffic will not be able to use the roads. To-day heavy traffic has to be diverted in many cases. The hon. and gallant Member also said that the roads are being made so good for transport, which is now going by road, that the railway companies are not able to make any profit. Does he remember that when the War was over the railway companies were presented with £60,000,000 of the taxpayers' money for the renewal of their rolling-stock and the repair of their permanent ways? They never gave that £60,000,000 to the contractors. They made them pay, and since then the last Conservative Government have given the railway companies power to engage in transport on the roads in competition with the contractors. The result is that their traffic is diverted on to the road; naturally the railways will not pay, and the contractors are doing their best to keep their trade.
5.0 p.m.
We think that the money that is being spent on roads is not too much, and that it ought to be continued. We are now getting roads and bridges over which traffic up to 20 tons can go without feeling disturbed. We know that the roads in the past were not made for heavy traffic, and the result is that many have had to be stripped and sounder bottoms put in. If that is going to happen, the increased traffic on the roads will benefit the employers, the sellers of merchandise and the manufacturers, because they know, and they have known for many years, that they can get their goods carried from any part of England or even Wales into London more quickly and better to their destinations by road than they can by rail. The goods can go more safely. That is the reason why there is so much traffic on the roads. I hope that that kind of business will be continued even though we complain about the congestion on the roads. When the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Transport gets his commissioners properly going, I do not see why there should not be a better utilisation of the roads to the benefit of all.
Notwithstanding the importance of the subject which the House is now discussing, I do not think that any party represented in the House to-day can congratulate itself on the enthusiasm that it displays by its attendance. I must thank both the hon. Members who have brought this Motion before the House, because it is, after all, almost the most important matter which this House can discuss. As has often been said, this fundamentally is its main duty. Unhappily it has for many years failed to carry it out. Interesting and lively speeches were made by the hon. Members who moved and seconded the Motion. But the hon. and learned Member for Central Nottingham (Mr. O'Connor) in his concluding remarks indicated that the Government were now engaged in a "stay-in strike." Well, I am quite sure that, judging by the great propaganda which goes on above the Gangway on the Opposition side, there is on their part a "get in movement." In the event of a change of Government, I cannot say that I have confidence in the capacity—I will not say the sincerity of their intentions—but the capacity of right hon. and hon. Gentlemen above the Gangway on the Opposition side to carry out economy in administration, because I heard with interest the statement which has been made to the effect that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had to find no less than £40,000,000 or £45,000,000 in new taxation, and it was clearly demonstrated in the remarkable speech by the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer some time ago that the main part of the additional taxation was caused by his having to fill up the gaps in the reserves due to the raids of the previous Government.
If I am to look forward as a somewhat detached observer to a change of Government, what confidence have I in the future of the finance of this country as far as the Conservative party is concerned? I will take some of the declarations of the leader of the Conservative party himself as to what they are going to do so far as expenditure is concerned if and when they get into office once more. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, speaking at Newton Abbot a little while ago, indicated quite clearly that one of their first duties would be to spend further money on the Navy. He said: Economy Bill was introduced which has been mentioned to-day. What a pitiable example of economy that was. They raided the reserves of health insurance, they raided the Road Fund, and, most pitiable and disgraceful of all, they raided the ex-Soldiers and Sailors Fund, taking away £1,000,000 from it and leaving £400,000. Economy! If that is their idea of economy, the country does not want any more of it.
I should like to get from the Financial Secretary to the Treasury more information than has been given by question and answer as to what is being done by the Economy Committee which has been set up by the House. I would remind him and the House that that committee was decided on by the House by one of the largest majorities of modern times, 447—one of the largest Coalition majorities. It was the first time that I have found myself in a real Coalition majority. That shows that the House was determined on it. We were glad to hear the names of the committee which were made public, but we should like to know what progress has been made. I feel sure that on this matter the Government really mean business. They understand, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer made it clear, how serious the position is. It is only by some such committee as this, which is not entirely cut off from consideration of policy, acting with impartiality and thoroughness, that not only the House, but the country can be informed adequately of what economies can be made and ought to be made by the great Government spending Departments. The time is short. I know that it is a sound maxim of political life, "In politics always give time a chance," but, as far as the financial position of the country is concerned, there is not a moment to be lost in doing what we can to redeem the position from acute disaster. I would say this about the House of Commons and its financial functions: it has completely broken down as an organisation for the control of national finance.
Let us recall to our minds what weapons, so to speak, we have to deal with this alarming situation. Up to now we have had 22 days of Supply, and fully half of them have gone in full-dress Debates on topics which have no relation to the control of financial expenditure. That is the only, way in which the House of Commons can have a Debate on the work of Departments like the Foreign Office, the Home Office and the Health Ministry in regard to great questions that arise. From the point of view of intensive examination of the real spending, I do not hesitate to say that the effect of fully half of the 22 days was entirely nugatory. What else have we got? We have the Public Accounts Committee, presided over always by a Member of this House of considerable eminence and knowledge of financial affairs. The committee's reports are always extremely interesting and informative documents. The only real defect of them is that they deal with the year that has gone, and have nothing to say as to this year or the year to come. I do not for one moment suggest that we should interfere with the function of the Public Accounts Committee.
Then we have the Estimates Committee. What happens there? Admirable work is done in dealing with one or two Departments a year. I grant you that Members of the House who are anxious to supplement the vast amount of material already at their disposal for perusal and study, find these reports excellent documents. But the reports cannot deal with questions of policy. They are just interesting—most interesting and useful—records for students of how the House works. I repeat again that, as an instrument for the control of national finance, it is broken in our hands.
What, if anything, can be done? The most interesting suggestion was made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Sevenoaks (Sir H. Young). I cannot do more than generalise on it, and I hope that if he speaks later on in the Debate he may elaborate his suggestion. It was that once a quarter the House of Commons should have a statement, from the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the day, indicating as far as he could what was the financial position of the country. The suggestion does not mean four Budget statements, but that a day should be taken, and not by way of a Vote of Censure, for a really sincere examination of the financial position of the country, in fact, that, four days a year, the House of Commons should, on questions of finance, really be a "Council of State." I think that suggestion is worthy of very serious consideration. It would inform the House, but what is more important, it would inform the country.
Anybody who imagines that taxation, on what is called the "higher level," is not sooner or later passed down to find its ultimate resting-place as the heaviest burden upon the cottage home, is vastly mistaken. The wife of a collier is intensely and deeply interested in the Budget; every line of it affects her. Let the House of Commons break away from precedent. That is what it is here for. I remember very well—if I may be allowed a reminiscence—when I was Deputy-Chairman of Committees, some matter arising upon which I said to the Clerk of the House, Sir Courtenay Ilbert, "There is no precedent for it." "Well," he said, "make one." And I did. It did not do any harm. I have no doubt it did good. This House is far too hidebound.
There is no lack of capital. In the banks to-day there is no less than £1,800,000,000, half of it held up by what are called "time-deposits," waiting for investment. One of the reasons that men, industries and undertakings are not going to the banks for the use of this credit, which is being pushed at the country by the bank general managers, is the lack of knowledge and confidence. I do not know, if application were made, that they would find the position quite so easy as some of the public speeches would indicate, but there is a large amount of real credit available. If the Government of the day took the people of the country frankly into their confidence, in and through the House of Commons—[An HON. MEMBER: By a General Election!"]—a General Election will do no, good if it is merely going to change this party for that lot!
On a point of Order. Is the right hon. Gentleman entitled to refer to the gentlemen on the Front Bench opposite as "that lot"? I agree with it myself.
Is not the country entitled to the people it wants?
They will never make you king!
Not many weeks ago, at the instance of the party which I represent at the moment, the House passed a Motion by a vast majority to set up a Committee. I am pressing on the Government the vital necessity of that committee being made to function really and powerfully. We must give it a chance. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury will, I hope, be able to give us further and better information on that point.
I hope I may be pardoned, as a comparatively new Member of the House, for saying that I doubt whether, as was suggested by the right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down, this House, as an institution for discussing matters of finance in a comparatively impartial atmosphere, was ever very different from what it is to-day. I have a feeling that this case is rather like that of "Punch," when it was described as being "not so good as it used to be." The reply was: "No, of course it never was." There is a kind of unreality in the Debates we have had on economy. It is assumed that there are such things as absolutely uncoloured and universally-accepted financial and economic facts, about which there can be no difference of opinion among fair-minded people. Each time we get down into the reality of this topic of discussion we find a fairly deep cleavage of opinion dividing us from hon. Members on the other side. We accept the view that economy is a good thing, but we interpret economy in a sense which is very different from that in which it is interpreted by hon. Members on the other side. We mean by economy, wise national housekeeping.
The hon. and gallant Member for Thornbury (Major Gunston), whose speech we welcomed as a gallant effort, said that our attitude was that of Santa Claus. That only shows how little he has grasped the notion that the whole of this great community is, in a sense, a family, and the State, in regard to its expenditure, is not in the position of a Santa Claus so much as in that of a parent. It has to look at the total quality of the national life, not merely at the immovable aspect of it, the fixed capital, but at that living capital, which is at least as important, and possibly far more important, even if you look at the question absolutely from the economic point of view, leaving any other out, there is always bound to be a very deep and wide measure of disagreement between us and hon. Members opposite.
I hoped that the Mover and Seconder of the Amendment, in view of the fact that we have had this subject of discussion so often before, would have brought forward something definite, and not a mete attack on the whole general character of the present Government. It goes without saying that such an attack does not do anything, one way or the other. The suggestions made by the hon. and gallant Member for Thornbury would not—and I do not suppose he would claim for them that they would—effect a reduction in expenditure of more than £5,000,000 or £10,000,000 a year at the most. It was remarkable that among those suggestions was a proposal for amalgamating just the Ministries that are economically vital and necessary in an up-to-date Cabinet, while leaving what I regard as the quite superfluous Ministries of Defence unassimilated. These Minds-tries are still to carry on their spending capacities uncontrolled. Neither in the speech of the Mover nor of the Seconder was there any reference to that one big aspect of national and international economy which we seek to bring about, and that is a large-scale reduction of armaments by international agreement.
I want to say a word or two about the social services. It is time that people who demand in large, general terms, reductions of national and local expenditure, should come down to earth and tell us what they mean, where the economy can be made, and who it is who has to bear the burden. I do the hon. and learned Member for Nottingham (Mr. O'Connor) the justice of saying that he did come out with the proposition that the burden in the last analysis, or before it, must fall on the wage earners, but I wish to know where we are to be asked to contract what is done by the community for the 1,500,000 old age pensioners, for the 18,000,000 men and women who look to National Health Insurance in one form or another for protection against the consequences of sickness, and the 9,000,000 children? At the expense of which of these groups is economy to be made? In relation to that point I come to my real reason for intervening in this Debate.
I think the time has come when we, in this country, ought not to allow our minds to be frozen into a state of unnecessary self-depreciation. There is no contribution made by this country to the general economy of the world which is so important as our contribution in the development of our social services. I feel proud and I am sure most hon. Members on this side feel proud of the fact that the rapid extension of the constructive development of those services coincides with the life of our party. The coming into active politics of Labour vastly accelerated the pace at which this great movement was carried on. Whenever we have the opportunity of being in a country other than our own, we find that the manner in which our social services has extended is the fact which arouses their interest and admiration, and the feeling that imitation ought to follow on the part of other countries. I feel sure that even the Noble Lady the Member for the Sutton Division of Plymouth (Viscountess Astor) will agree with me when I say that if there is one to whom we might do honour as a person who really deserves honour as a constructive statesman—since we have no word to distinguish the sexes in that respect—that person is Margaret Macmillan, to whom is due perhaps the greatest amount of the constructive development of our social services.
And she was entirely ignored by the Labour party.
I am glad of the opportunity given by this Debate of paying a tribute to Margaret Macmillan, even if it is a little irrelevant and, speaking generally, I would take advantage of this occasion to say that we in this House of Commons ought to be reasonably proud of the work which has been done by this country in the department of social services. We on this side of the House ought not to be perturbed when we are attacked upon these grounds. The major task which we have in this House is that of making effectively accessible to all the people of our country those things which we ourselves have learned to appreciate and to enjoy. We ought to press on with that task, in a Utopian spirit, if you like to call it so. We ought to press on to that Utopia which, as Oscar Wilde put it, is another name for the progress which drives on the human spirit. All this may perhaps seem remote from a Motion for the reduction of national expenditure, but I do not think that it is so remote. I think it is largely the spirit which lies behind these questions which matters. Whether we ought to direct our national economy to the general improvement of the lives of our people or not—that is a question worth while discussing on occasions like this, and it is from that point of view that I hope, if this Motion is pressed to a Division, it will be defeated by a large majority.
The hon. Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Hamilton) enunciated a curious and interesting new theory of the functions of the House of Commons. It has been commonly supposed that it is the function of the Opposition to criticise and of the Government to provide the initiative; but her theory is that the Opposition should provide both the criticism and the initiative. It's surely a humiliating position if the supporters of the Government have to take this attitude towards us—"It is true that we have not the least idea of how to govern the country; do tell us how." The right hon. Gentleman the Member for North Cornwall (Sir D. Maclean) supported the idea that the House should meet at periodic intervals to discuss the general state of national finance. The support of the right hon. Gentleman is very welcome. We trust if an opportunity occurs for bringing forward a Standing Order which would make that proposal a fact that we shall have the support of the Liberal party. The merits of the proposal are, I think, principally these, that in nearly all the discussions of financial affairs which take place on numerous occasions throughout the year, the House is confined to the discussion of the particular expenditure before it. That is quite unbusinesslike. All new expenditure should be contemplated in relation to the total expenditure proposed for the year. At present we only get an opportunity of doing that in the Budget Debate, and it appears to some of us who have not failed to give this subject careful thought, that what is required to impress a deeper sense of financial responsibility upon our councils is the provision of more frequent opportunities for Debates in which it would be in order to envisage national solvency as a whole.
The speeches of the Mover and Seconder ranged over the wide and difficult question of the balance sheet of the country as a whole in its relation to public expenditure. I seek to call attention to the narrower, yet important, aspect, not of the whole nation's balance sheet, but of the balance sheet of the Exchequer, particularly in relation to the vital interest of national credit. On this subject I suggest that the general financial policy which the Government are pursuing dangerously ignores the most conspicuous facts of the present economic state of the nation. I do not want to discuss the general merits of the Government's policy, but its financial aspect only, and I will seek to show that in its financial aspect it ignores as I say the most conspicuous facts in our present economic state. I would confine myself, if the hon. Member for Blackburn will permit me to say so, to facts which fall into a category which she denied to exist in this connection namely facts which are absolute and incontrovertible. It is an absolute and uncontrovertible fact that for the last two years this country has been getting poorer and not richer.
On a point of Order. May I ask if the right hon. Gentleman is pronouncing his English properly?
That is not a point of Order.
It is a point of grammar. He is saying "uncontrovertible" and not "incontrovertible."
These unseemly interruptions do not help what is after all a serious Debate on an important question.
If proof of the fact that this country is getting poorer and not richer is necessary, it can be found in simple and illuminating figures. Our export trade in the course of last year decreased by 22 per cent. What better barometer could you have of national prosperity? Our credit balance free for investment overseas, which is the measure of our surplus Wealth, decreased from £138,000,000 in 1929 to £30,000,000 in 1930—a speaking fact. I turn to what are perhaps the most directly convincing figures in this connection. They are shown in the Board of Trade indices of industrial activity for 1930, compared with 1929. Let us look at the industrial activity and productivity of two great staple trades, namely iron and steel, and textiles. The indices show that iron and steel decreased by 22 per cent., and textiles by 20 per cent., while the whole industrial activity of the country as measured by these indices decreased by 7.6 per cent. What the decrease will be in the year which we are looking back upon now, the year just passed, we cannot say, but it will be substantial.
These facts spell not depression. They come near spelling financial and economic disaster. Of course they have an inevitable effect on the yield of taxation. Last year when he made his Budget speech the Chancellor of the Exchequer—whom he hope to see again in our councils very shortly, completely restored to health—estimated for an increased yield from Super-tax and Income Tax on his increased scale of taxation of £26,500,000. Has that estimate been realised? We shall know to-morrow by what extent it has not been realised, but this we know already, that it is impossible that that estimate should be nearly realised and that possibly there has been no substantial increase at all in the yield of those taxes. These facts are eloquent. The steady fall in national prosperity approaches the verge of a national catastrophe. During this period what has been the policy of the Government? It has been a policy of a steady increase in expenditure. Here, again, are facts which are not matters to be tossed to and fro in the arguments of economists, but are the sort of facts which the hon. Member for Blackburn desires — incontrovertible and absolute facts. There is the fact that, in his first Budget, the Chancellor of the Exchequer increased national expenditure by £43,000,000. If the right hon. Gentleman the Member for North Cornwall will permit me to say so, that increase was not due to any alleged malpractices of his predecessor. That was a definite increase of expenditure for new purposes. Now the Chancellor of the Exchequer will have to budget for further fresh sources of expenditure. When we come to the year that is to follow, we know already that he will have to provide some £50,000, more expenditure again.
Derating!
No. That has nothing to do with it. There is a sum of £43,000,000 in the first Budget, and probably £50,000,000 in the second, or £93,000,000 in all. The right hon. Gentleman has forced up the scale of national expenditure to that extent. What is the inevitable result in its relevance to national credit? In the last year we had a deficit of £14,000,000. What the deficit of the current year will be we shall know to-morrow, but it seems probable that it will be in the neighbourhood of £25,000,000. What about next year? We cannot tell, but it is commonly stated that the condition of our national finances will be such that there may be no allowance for sinking fund payments in the next Budget at all. We do not know whether that will be so or not, but it is being actively contended that, in view of the condition of the national finances, the easiest solution next year will be to make no provision for sinking fund at all.
If that were so, what would be the position? In the course of three years—last year, the present year and, possibly, next year, we should have accumulated a deficiency of £94,000,000 out of £160,000,000 for the sinking fund. What does that mean? It means that in normal times we had laid it down that for the maintenance of national credit in those three years a sum of £160,000,000 should be provided for the sinking fund, and that the result of a Socialist Administration in those three years had been that, instead of providing £160,000,000, we should not improbably be short of that sum by £94,000,000.
Is that the end of the tale of the gravity of the position in regard to credit? Far from it. As the House will remember, during this time other heavy burdens have been accumulated upon our credit. There are burdens of borrowing for so-called productive purposes. In 1929–30 we borrowed no less than £10,500,000 on annuities for the Post Office, and £31,000,000 for the Local Loans Fund, mostly for housing. These are recorded as productive, and not an addition to the burden of deadweight Debt, but any business man knows that none the less do they accumulate as a burden on national credit. They cannot be disregarded. In addition, there is another burden which is most present to the anxieties of all responsible Members of this House; that is the burden of the borrowings for the Unemployment Insurance Fund. At the rate of £1,000,000 a week, it is rolling up. We must add this additional burden to the deficiency in the regular provision for our Sinking Fund. As the result of our overspending, I venture to suggest, with a deep sense of the gravity of the position, that we are within sight of a state of affairs which is nothing short of alarming, in relation to the stability of national credit. What actually is that state? It will be said that all that is happening is that we are not actually paying off Debt quite so fast as we do in a normal time; that we must not talk about this deficit as if it were a true deficit; that it is only a deficiency of Debt reduction. That is no longer the case. We have arrived at a point at which the most responsible representatives of the Treasury can say, in words which I should like to quote verbatim because of their gravity:
The gravity of the position in simple words is this, that for the first time in the history of this State as a leader of the world in Finance, as a world's centre of productive industry, as the standard of credit to all the world, we have arrived, owing to the policy of the right hon. Gentlemen on the Front Bench opposite, at a point at which it is possible to question whether the United Kingdom is balancing its Budget. There is yet time to stop the decay, to prevent the breath even of suspicion being blown upon the credit of Great Britain; but in order to do that, we must realise the gravity of the issue. Here I must say a word to two hon. Members opposite, to urge them not to minimise the gravity of the consequences to every inhabitant of this Kingdom of this evil. The direct effects of an injury to national credit are clear enough. There is the £750,000,000 of our floating Debt, which has to be borrowed from month to month. That is the most sensitive measure of national credit. As national credit goes up and down, the cost of that floating Debt goes up and down. The mere fluctuations of national credit by the passing opinions of the market are quite capable of producing a variation of, say 2 per cent., and costing the country, plus or minus in the course of the year, no less than £15,000,000.
Then there is the vast body of our total debt of £7,500,000,000. As the hon. and learned Member for Central Nottingham (Mr. O'Connor) has argued the brightest hope of the taxpayer for economy, and for the wage earners of the country too, whose brightest hopes depend on economy too—[ Laughter. ] I notice that the laughter when one makes that statement becomes more halfhearted as time goes on. I do not despair of soon being able to utter that obvious truth in this House, and of its being received with the gravity that it deserves. The brightest hope of all for economy is in a conversion of the Debt. If we so improve the status of our credit as to be able to put our Debt upon a 3½ per cent. basis, instead of a 4½ per cent. basis, we should save the country £70,000,000. Where else can we save £70,000,000 in the course of the year, it is difficult to see. At the present moment, it may seem extravagant and impossible that we should be able to make such an improvement of credit as that. It would not have seemed extravagant and impossible under more settled, more reasonable, and more responsible Governments. Such conversions have been made before, and can be made again; if there is a Government in power that will follow the course of economy and inspire confidence in the country, that course may yet be followed.
If we turn from the direct benefits of good credit and from the direct injury that has been done to this country by the present policy of extravagance, to indirect benefits, there is matter for even more serious thought. It will be realised that the prosperity of this country as an outstanding centre of manufactures, finance and trade for the whole world, depends upon its possessing the best credit in the world; and just in the measure that the credit of this country decays below that of another country, that other country will supersede us as the leader in the world of industry, finance and trade. I will give two concrete instances which will convince any reasonable man of the value to all of good public credit. The first is the £75,000,000 a year which comes to this country as the pay for the services of our banks, of the financial houses in the City, and of the whole of that vast financial structure, which always provokes the contempt of hon. Members opposite, but which is essential to the existence of those classes whom they profess to represent. [ Interruption. ] That business comes to this country because of our pre-eminent credit. The suspicion of a rumour of an unbalanced budget in this country would destroy that business and would destroy too, if you look at it from the most narrow point of view, the Income Tax and revenue derived from that business. Then there is our re-export trade—[ Interruption. ]
I must warn the hon. Member for Silvertown (Mr. J. Jones).
It is all very well to warn me.
These interruptions are quite unnecessary. Hon. Members on both sides will have their fair chance, and these interruptions must stop.
If I have unnecessarily interrupted, I apologise, but I hope that every Member will be given the same chance of speaking as some of the hon. Gentlemen opposite.
There have been far too many interruptions all round the House, and they must cease.
The second instance to which I would refer of a national advantage which depends on a high credit, and which is liable to fatal injury by any suspicion that the Budget of the United Kingdom is unbalanced, is our re-export trade. It was valued at £110,000,000 in the last year but one, and even after the great slump, it only fell to £68,000,000. There is a force which attracts that trade to this country, and that force is absolute confidence in the financial stability of the country. There is no particular reason otherwise why it should come here, and if the reason why it comes here—that of preeminent credit—fails, then this trade fails too. The struggle to maintain these great advantages of ours as a world's centre gets greater year by year. The struggle to maintain them is impossible except upon a basis of unshakable credit and universal confidence in our national finances. Lastly, and I commend this to hon. Members opposite, there is this consideration—a little more remote, but none the less important for being a little more remote—that the whole industrial welfare of the country depends at bottom on the credit of the British Government. Again, there is no reason why this country should be one of the world's chief workshops except a few particular advantages, and among those particular advantages that which is outstanding is the absolute stability of Government credit. Capital is now international, and enterprise is now international too. They will go to those countries where they are given the best conditions. One condition which they require absolutely in order that they may be attracted to a country, is the stability of the national finances of that country. There is a consideration which one feels inclined, because of its great gravity, almost to breathe in a whisper only, but which must yet be mentioned when this subject is under discussion. It is well known by the bitter experience of nations in war time, and under ruinous Socialist administrations after the War, that the inevitable outcome of an unbalanced Budget is an affected currency, a shaken and devalued currency. No industry can prosper unless the currency is absolutely sound. These are some of the considerations to which the attention of the House must be drawn when it is engaged on this question of reducing national expenditure within the limits of what the nation can afford. There can be no other course if this country is to continue to maintain a population of 40,000,000 and not a population of 25,000,000 or 30,000,000, if it is to continue to be a centre of the world's manufacturing supply, and of trade and finance, and not to fall back into the position of a second rate competitor in the great race for prosperity.
The moral is that there is a time for all things. There is a time for increasing the standard of living of the people by social services. That is the time when the nation is getting richer. There is a time, too, for calling a halt and conserving every resource. That is when the nation is getting poorer. At the present time, it is not a question of improving the existing standards by fresh social services. It is a question of a hard fight to maintain those which we have got. For that purpose there is one condition absolutely precedent to every other consideration in national government, and that is that expenditure shall be reduced within the limit of what the nation can afford, and that the balance of the Budget should be vindicated.
6.0 p.m.
It is very hard to believe that the right hon. Member for Sevenoaks (Sir H. Young), who always makes such lucid, if gloomy, speeches in these financial Debates, was ever a Liberal. It is much easier to believe that he is a Conservative, and a reactionary, and like most other converts, he becomes more Roman than the Romans themselves. Most people will agree that he has found his spiritual home in the Conservative party. It has been said by a well-known authority that one of the greatest qualifications needed by a Member of Parliament is self-assurance, and the three hon. Members who addressed the House this afternoon and condemned the policy of the present Government in matters of finance have proved that they possess that quality to an extraordinary degree. What was the financial policy of their own party during the 4½ years when they were in office? I would like to quote, if I may, a rather famous Conservative paper. I dare not quote the "Daily Herald." I wish to quote the "Daily Mail." [ Interruption. ] Oh, I know it is suspect, or that it was suspect up to a week or a fortnight ago, but I believe that the "Daily Mail," together with the"Daily Express," has entered into the harmonious Conservative circle, and one can now quote it with safety. The "Daily Mail" said:
We have been told that this high taxation is responsible for a lack of capital. That is a dubious statement to make. Going round London one does not see many evidences of shortage of wealth or lack of capital.
Will the hon. Member go to the North of England?
I do not see why I should go to the North of England, but I have no doubt that if one examined the conditions in Bradford, which is very near the part of the country which the hon. Member represents, he would find flats let at extraordinary rents and the most expensive kind of life being led by a small class of the community. In Leeds one can see extraordinary proof of the poverty of the main body of Leeds workers under the system of capitalism which the hon. Member supports. Professor Clay has said—
Now we are told that we must economise—but not upon the biggest burden we have to bear, the burden of £1,000,000 a day in war interest. There is to be no economy there. That is sacrosanct. It must not be touched. Imagine trying to reduce the burden of the War Debt in any way by a capital levy or a reduction of interest! That would be shocking Bolshevism; and if we bring in a Bill to try to stop profiteering—
rose —
Let me have a chance. I do not speak very often. When a Bill is introduced to try to stop profiteering hon. Members opposite are not very conspicuous by their support of it. What they are keen about, though they do not like to say it, because it sounds rather bad, is to economise on the social services. They would love to economise on education. Their antagonism to the Education Bill was based on its cost. They said we could not afford the expenditure of £5,000,000 or £6,000,000. They have always been famous for trying to cut down the education services. Why should they oppose this expenditure on education if they really believe, as they say, that if the people were taught to think more and to reason more, they would support the Conservative party? Do they oppose it because they know in their hearts that if the electors could think and reason properly there would be very few Members on the opposite side—except the Members for St. George's and South Kensington?
I do not regard the money spent on the social services as money lost. To transfer money from one small class to, say, old age pensioners, is not the same as throwing it into the sea. The old age pensioner will use it to buy boots, clothes, food and so on, and when the old age pensioner, multiplied a million times, is spending his 10s., or whatever it is that he gets, his purchasing power is helping industry just as much as if the money were being spent by some millionaire in America. Indeed, the poor pensioner in spending his or her 10s. encourages the basic trades of our industry very much more than the wealthy man does when spending his money in the West End or on the Riviera, or when he invests it abroad. The old age pensioner will not invest part of his 10s. in the Argentine, or in Indian cotton factories where cheap labour will compete with Lancashire and throw more Lancashire people out of work. Money spent on the social services does far more for the trade of this country than money spent in most ways by individuals.
We are told that our social services are the highest in the world, and I believe that to be true. Is that a disgraceful thing; is it anything of which to be ashamed? Are we to believe that France is an ideal country because France has very few social services? Hon. Members opposite have told us over and over again that wages and the general standard of living in this country are very much higher than in France or in any other country where there are poor social services. I do not know whether they think that France is an ideal country. Probably they think that China is the ideal country. We are told that the Chinese are mostly non-smokers, non-drinkers, and so on—the Tory ideal of working men. Rice for breakfast, rice for tea, rice for supper, and cold water in between. The Conservative employer in China tells his workers: "There is no country in the world where the workers have less wages than you have. You have only to cut down your rice and have hot water three times a day and we could secure all the trade in the world, as we have no social services." If cheap labour and no social services is the ideal, then China ought to be a paradise for the working men of that country.
I do not know, or pretend to know, what are the plans of the Chancellor of the Exchequer for taxation which will be revealed in a month's time. I do not believe that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will take much notice of any appeals to him to reduce the social services, and I hope that he will do his best to increase them. I do not know what the Chancellor will do in regard to taxation, but I hope he will increase the Super-tax, introduce a Land Tax, and impose other taxation in order to transfer some of the wealth of the country to the poorer people who to-day, in spite of our progress, are still unable to live the decent life which every man and woman ought to enjoy in every country in the world.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for North Cornwall (Sir D. Maclean) said that lack of confidence was one of the greatest difficulties in industry at the present time, but I think the speech of the hon. Member for North Kensington (Mr. West) was the type of speech likely to do an infinity of harm to the commerce and industry of this country. The hon. Member for North Kensington made a quotation from the Colwyn Committee's report. I think I am right in saying that the opinion of the Colwyn Committee was that it was necessary that money should go abroad to develop the lands across the seas, otherwise it would be impossible to maintain a good standard of living for the working classes in this country. But is capital the only thing that has gone abroad during the last 50 years? Has not labour gone abroad in order to obtain higher wages and better conditions? During the latter part of the last century and the beginning of this century our skilled artisans have poured over to the United States in order to get better wages and conditions. It is not too much to say that the American engineering trade, the iron and steel trade, and the motor trade in America have been largely built up by the skill of the men who left this country and left Scotland. Why? Because they could get better wages and better conditions abroad. Nobody objected to their going—[ Interruption. ]
We cannot carry on discussion by interruptions; it must be done by debate.
It seems to me to be absurd to deny to capital the right which labour has enjoyed unchallenged for 10 generations. During the 10 or 12 years I have been in this House I have listened to a very large number of Debates on the question of economy. It is perfectly true that I have taken part in one or two of them, but in the majority of cases my role has been that of a silent listener. With the exception of the subject of unemployment, I think economy has figured more largely in the Debates of this House than any other subject, and to all intents and purposes the result has been approximately the same. I am not suggesting that the economy Debates have had no effect, but they have not had the effect which the topic deserves or the necessities of the situation demand. It is perfectly true that economies have been effected here and there, but that has been done entirely by combing out the Estimates, going through them, and reducing items by a few hundred pounds and a few thousand pounds here and there. This economy has not been achieved by means of an economy policy, which no Government up to the present has had the courage to put forward. Everybody knows that economy is hopelessly unpopular, because it touches people where they feel it most, that is in their pockets. With regard to the high Income Tax-paying class, they poll such few votes that they are not worth considering from the point of view of vote-catching.
We have a much more important matter to consider. We have to look to the future of the trade and commerce of our country. When the party on this side of the House were in office, we heard a great deal about the gigantic savings which were going to be effected in the fighting forces of the country if a Labour Government came into office. What has been done in that direction after two years of a Socialist Government? Very little indeed. I seem to remember the First Lord of the Admiralty saying that further economies in naval expenditure were practically impossible, and unless there are more favourable conditions abroad, there was very little chance of effecting further economies in the Navy. The Secretary of State for War has told us that unilateral disarmament has gone as far as it was possible to go, and, after listening to the very weighty statement made by the Foreign Secretary yesterday, it does not seem to me that there is much chance of either side coming along on the Disarmament question.
The Under-Secretary of State for Air has told us that we are fifth in the order of Air Powers in the world, and so it does not seem to me that there is much possibility of effecting many reductions in our expenditure in that direction. The hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Hamilton) suggested an amalgamation of the Ministries dealing with the fighting forces. That suggestion has been made many times already, both by hon. Members above the Gangway on this side of the House and hon. Members below the Gangway, as well as by hon. Members on the opposite side of the House. Hitherto very little has been done towards realising that ideal. It seems to me that economy is almost impossible unless an economy policy is brought in by the Government. It is no use combing out the Estimates. You may find a few economies here and there, but if we wish to put this country on a sound basis, an economy policy is absolutely necessary. I doubt whether many people realise what is the actual amount that this country is spending at the present time. It is not so much what we are spending in paper pounds, but what we are spending in the actual value of those pounds. After all, it is the value of the purchasing power of the pound that counts in the long run, and not the actual amount written on the face of it. If we consider our expenditure to-day not so much in the actual amount but in goods and services, we shall find that we are spending more to-day than we did in 1920 and 1921, which we have always considered the absolute peak of peace expenditure.
May I give the House a short table of the actual expenditure for a few selected years? In the year 1913–14 our actual expenditure was £173,000,000. Naturally, that being the basic rate, the basic value would be the same. In 1920–21 our actual expenditure—I am dealing with national expenditure only, and not the expenditure of local authorities as well—had risen to £1,142,000,000, but owing to the depreciation of the pound, the high cost of living and commodity prices, that is only represented by a value in 1913–14 of £380,000,000. In 1924–25 the actual expenditure was £745,000,000 and on the basis of the prices ruling in 1913–14, that was equal to £450,000,000. In 1930–31 our actual expenditure was £850,000,000, and, thanks to the appreciation of the pound, or, if you like to look at it in the other way, to the decreased cost of living, or the decrease of commodity prices as a whole, we are spending on the basis of 1913–14 a sum of £800,000,000, which is more than twice the amount we spent in 1920–21 which we have always considered to be the peak year of post-War expenditure.
Will the hon. and gallant Member say what index he is taking?
I am taking the index of the cost-of-living, and the increase of commodity prices worked out from wholesale and retail prices. I will now consider our expenditure compared with the total national income. Our total national income has always been a rather indefinite figure and an uncertain factor, but in recent years a good many sound financial experts have worked it out very carefully, and they have taken advantage of information provided in recent years. I do not say that it is an absolutely accurate figure, but the figure they have arrived at represents the total national income in 1913–14 as £2,300,000,000. The Government expenditure in that year was £173,000,000. In 1920–21, the estimated national income had risen to £4,500,000,000, and the expenditure was £1,142,000,000. In 1924–25, the estimated national income sank to £4,200,000,000, and the expenditure was £745,000,000. In 1930–31 the national income was estimated at £4,000,000,000 and the expenditure was £880,000,000. Therefore, in 1913 we were spending approximately one-twelfth of the total national income, but last year, 1930–1, we spent something between one-fourth and one-fifth of the entire national income on the ordinary hand-to-mouth expenditure of the country.
There is another way in which I should like to look at this very high rate of expenditure at which we are living at the present time, and that is as regards the effect which this expenditure of revenue, interest and capital, has on a man's prospect of employment. It is a commonplace to say that a man's labour deprived of capital is, to all intents and purposes, worthless. A man's labour unassisted by capital can produce practically nothing at all. We educate the people of this country fairly well—not so long or so well as hon. Members opposite, or I myself, would like, but on the whole fairly well; but, unless a man has capital himself, or the State or industry is prepared to provide him with capital, he is not in a position to take any advantage of that education or of the skill or brains which have been developed by it.
During the past 12 years the amount taken from industry to finance the country generally—I am not specifying which particular service has had the lion's share—in Income Tax, not on what one may legitimately call income, but on companies' reserves, which I maintain is a direct drain on the future of industry, has been no less than £472,000,000; in Death Duties, £718,000,000; in Super-tax—which I just mention, though I do not maintain that it is a drain on capital to the same extent as taxation on companies' reserves, or even Death Duties—a further £500,000,000. Capital requires replacement. The mechanical appliances of industry wear out very rapidly in these days. In many places 10 years is considered to be the limit of life of a modern machine, as compared with 20 or 30 years 50 years ago. In fact, many people maintain that, to keep a factory at its best productive power, the machinery must be scrapped and replaced every 10 years. That of itself requires a very large store of capital. But, in addition, new men and women are leaving school and coming into industry at the rate of several hundred thousand a year, and, unless capital is provided, either by the man himself or by the State or by industry, to the extent of something like £500, that man cannot be employed at his full capacity.
Hon. Members opposite will agree that even to set up a smallholding requires a capital of at least £500, and that is approximately the capital required by a man, or by the industry employing the man, to allow him to work at his fullest capacity. One often hears it said that, in a decently equipped works, they employ one man to every £500 of invested capital, and I think it will be found that that is approximately correct. By spending the £1,200,000,000 which has been spent during the past 12 years on the ordinary hand-to-mouth current expenditure of the country, we have been taking away money which would otherwise have provided working capital for the men who are daily and yearly coming into industry. We have thus deprived something like 2,500,000 of them of the capital necessary to give them a fair start in life, and that is approximately the total number of people unemployed in this country to-day.
We are to-day discussing national expenditure, and, therefore, I think it is appropriate that one should, in opening, express regret that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is not now present. Even though I am speaking for the small minority of 20 or so who voted against the Motion on National Economy which was adopted by a large majority in this House on the last occasion when this subject was discussed, I want to say how much all of us hope that the recovery which is taking place in the Chancellor's health may continue, and that he may in fact be in our midst when it is his duty to introduce the Budget.
I wish to refer to the speeches in which the Mover and Seconder placed this Amendment before us, and perhaps I may, as one back bencher to another, heartily congratulate them upon the way in which they put forward their case. We had from their speeches pure Tory doctrine, as I hope the House will have from these benches pure Socialist doctrine, and, because of that, I welcome the case which they stated so clearly and frankly to the House. I think, however, that, if we examine the case which was put before the House by the hon. and gallant Member for Thornbury (Captain Gunston) and by the hon. and learned Member for Central Nottingham (Mr. O'Connor), we shall find that they were not pleading for a reduction of national expenditure, but were, in reality, pleading for a reduction in the standard of our civilisation. They urged a reduction upon education, the social services, road development, national welfare, in order that the taxation of the rich might be reduced; but the imposition of taxation upon the rich limits national expenditure just as effectively as a reduction of expenditure upon social services. The only difference is that, if you reduce the taxation upon the rich, you enable them to spend more upon luxuries, while, if you reduce expenditure upon social services, you reduce the amount of the national income that is going for an improvement of the conditions of the working class generally. The actual instances given by the hon. and gallant Member for Thornbury of increased expenditure during the year related to widows' pensions, unemployment in one form or another, the proposed increased expenditure upon education, and the proposed increased expenditure upon housing. I want to suggest to the hon. and gallant Member that in reality what he was doing was, as a member of the party in this House which speaks most authoritatively for the wealthy classes, to urge a reduction of expenditure upon the poorest in the community in order that there might be a relief of taxation for the wealthiest in the community. When he adopts that attitude, we are quite prepared to meet it.
There are two aspects of national expenditure in regard to which we are enthusiastically in favour of economy. One is expenditure upon armaments, and in that regard I may say that, although the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Hamilton) expressed a hope that a disarmament policy might be pursued which would lead to such economy, we have to remember that the spokesmen on the Front Bench have said that, until there is some disarmament by international agreement, no further economies in that direction can be expected. Therefore, we have been urging that our country should give some example to other countries in that respect. The other sphere in which we are prepared enthusiastically to advocate economy is in the reduction of War Loan interest. In the case of War Loan interest, the money value has increased from £300,000,000 in 1920 to £750,000,000 at the present time, and, if there is to be any reduction in national expenditure, surely it is much better that it should be at the expense of those who are receiving War Loan interest than at the expense of the poorest in our community.
We take the view definitely that there is no reason for any reduction in the social services. Mr. J. M. Keynes has assured us that the national income of this country is actually increasing by £100,000,000 a year, I think it was the hon. and learned Member for Central Nottingham who quoted some facts from the "Economist." I would remind him that the "Economist," in giving an analysis of 2,000 typical limited liability companies, stated that their average interest was 9.8 per cent. We know that the incomes in this country from land have increased from £350,000,000 to £415,000,000 since 1922. We know, as the right hon. Gentleman who spoke for the Liberal party said, that there is more idle capital laying in the banks at the present time than there has ever been. In view of these facts, instead of a reduction of social services, as the Conservative party desire, instead of a policy of going slow, as the Liberal party desire, we on these benches, so far as social services are concerned, desire their steady and emphatic extension.
We take an entirely different view from the Conservative party, the Liberal party and the official Labour party on this matter. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has stated that there can be no social improvements until there is trade recovery. We take the view that there will be no trade recovery until there are social improvements. We take the view that the root fundamental error of our present economic system is the wrong distribution of the national income; that every step which is taken to re-distribute the national income more fairly and equitably, to increase the mass purchasing power of the people, will result in an increased demand for goods and an increased demand for labour; and that it is only by that method that any hope of an industrial recovery is possible.
There is one particular aspect of economy on the part of the Government to which I think we ought to give attention. I find it difficult to believe that this House can thoroughly understand the economies which the Government have practised with respect to the conditions of service of civil servants. As Members of the House, we have a direct responsibility for the conditions of those who are servants of the State. Feeling that responsibility, I have taken some pains to discover the facts about those conditions. There is a staff of approximately 435,000 workers employed by the State, of whom more than a third are receiving less than £3 a week, and more than a half less than £4 a week.
Do those figures take account of the bonus or not?
They are both what are known as the industrial and the non-industrial staff, and they include the bonus. The Rowntree standard is 54s. 7d. a week. Of the 180,000 postal workers, 90,000 are receiving less than that standard and 10 per cent. are receiving less than 40s. a week. I want to put it directly to every Member of the House, in view of the responsibility that we have for the workers who are employed by the State, that it is a disgrace and a humiliation to each one of us that they should be employed under conditions of that character. I take two instances from my own constituency. They are cases of the Inland Revenue Department and of the Ministry of Labour at Kew. They are both male clerks, both with domestic responsibilities, both with long clerical experience with other firms and both with long distances to travel. Their wage has been reduced to 49s. 2d. a week. This applies particularly to the conditions of the staffs in the Employment Exchanges. In the larger provincial centres the wages of those staffs have now fallen to 46s. 2d. a week. In smaller towns they have fallen to 43s. 2d.
This is a Labour Government. The Members of the Government are Socialists. I cannot understand how the Socialist conscience of any Minister will allow him or her to receive a salary which would bring considerable comfort while they condemn their fellow workers of the State to the level of wages that I have been citing. I cannot understand how a Minister of this Government, for example, can receive a salary of £15,000 a year for his services as Minister, and fees in other respects, and can still be a Socialist and remain a Member of the Cabinet which condemns other State workers to a wage of little more than 40s. a week. When one knows of those contrasts, it is that that makes one despair more than anything else that the Socialist conscience of our Government must have departed from it when it is dealing with problems of this kind. This policy inevitably has the effect of encouraging wage reductions in other trades and industries as well.
We put in contrast with the policy of national economy that has been urged from the Conservative benches this policy, that the Government should proceed boldly with the taxation of the super incomes and unearned incomes of the wealthy and use that fund deliberately to raise the level of the working class to a living standard so that no working-class family is below that level, that it should in the first place deliberately aim at removing the disgrace of destitution and poverty by providing honourably for the aged, the unemployed, the widowed and the disabled and that it should, secondly, deliberately aim at securing a living income for every wage earner in the country who is serving the community as a whole. We believe the result of that policy will be to increase the purchasing power of the masses of the people, make a demand for goods and make a demand for labour, and that it is only as the Government follows that policy legislatively and administratively that we shall find any prospect at all of passing out of the industrial situation in which we are.
Those who, like me, have followed practically the whole of this Debate, will, I am sure, agree that we have listened to many very interesting and instructive speeches. From the other side of the House there was a very interesting speech delivered by the hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Hamilton). From the benches behind me we have had the speeches of the Mover and Seconder, which showed not merely a critical, but a real constructive effort in the realm of economy, and one from my right hon. Friend the Member for Sevenoaks (Sir H. Young) as remarkable as all that come from him. An hon. Member on that side found it hard to believe that it could come from one who had once been a Liberal. It was the old doctrine of Liberalism when it was in its heyday. There was not a word that Mr. Gladstone would have renounced or altered. That is Liberal finance. The speech that we had from the representative of that party, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for North Cornwall (Sir D. Maclean), was also interesting. It was made to the sealed pattern of the Liberal party in these days, to which we are more accustomed to listen from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel). It began by some pleasant chaff and equally cheery denunciation of the Conservative party, it went on to express full agreement with the Amendment, and the concluding passage was devoted to explaining why he was going to vote against an Amendment with which he agreed. There was, however, one marked difference between the speech and speeches to which we have been accustomed by his right hon. colleague beside him. He was perfectly candid about his reasons for not voting for an Amendment with which he agreed. He would not vote for it because it would have the effect of defeating the Government. That would force them to dissolve and, as the country would certainly return a Conservative majority, a General. Election was a thing at all costs to be avoided.
The right hon. Gentleman's comment is entirely inaccurate. I said the reason I did not propose to vote for the Amendment was that we had as a party already got the House of Commons to agree by an enormous majority to a committee which the Government have set up, and we propose to give them a fair and full opportunity to implement that committee.
I do not quite know why the right hon. Gentleman is at the pains to destroy his reputation for candour. When he looks at the OFFICIAL REPORT to-morrow morning he will find that he did better than he knew.
Even more instructive than the speeches that have been made has been the general attitude of hon. Members opposite. It is not for me to reply to the speech of the hon. Member who spoke last. It was a criticism not so much of Gentlemen on this side of the House, whether above or below the Gangway, as of right hon. Gentlemen upon that bench. Its interest was that it showed if this is what they do in the green what they will do when they get into the dry. Judging by the interruptions and by the applause of the benches behind the Government, the attitude of the hon. Member who spoke last and not the attitude of the Chancellor of the Exchequer expresses the view of the Socialist party. The right hon. Gentleman below the Gangway who deliberately decides to bolster up the Government and keep it in power does so knowing that all the influence of the party opposite is used not for economy but for extravagance, that their philosophy, as far as they have one, is turned to extravagance and away from economy, that they have not the faintest idea of the conditions on which national credit depends, nor the slightest idea of the danger in which they involve the country when they tamper with those conditions.
7.0 p.m.
The speeches which have already been made by my hon. Friends dispense me from doing more than very briefly stating the case. What we charge the Government with is that, at a time when the country is suffering from great distress, when there is a great lack of confidence and a prevalent uncertainty, when revenue is falling, when profits are disappearing, when trade is smaller and unemployment greater than it has ever been before, they have increased our burdens and are continuing to increase them, that they have endangered the national credit, that they are hindering the revival of industry alike by increasing its burdens and by endangering the national credit, that they are destroying confidence in the same way, and that the result of this action must be to threaten and, if continued, to destroy the standard of living which we are anxious to protect.
Is there any dispute about the truth of these charges as between the two Front Benches? Every charge in this Amendment is admitted by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I wish he were here to confirm to-day what he has said to this House, what he has said to the bankers of London, and what he will have to say again and with more force, if he is to make it prevail and if he is to find that salvation for the country which he himself sees to be necessary. There is no doubt about the increased burdens, no doubt about the endangered national credit. We have that on the authority of a paper authorised for publication as a correct statement by the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself. There is no doubt about the lack of confidence. Both the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Prime Minister have stressed the need for action which will restore confidence and give a fillip to industry. Both have pointed to the overwhelming burden of taxation as an immense handicap to industry and have pointed out that any increase of any tax that presses upon industry would be, in the words of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, "the last straw."
The Chancellor of the Exchequer himself declared to this House—and I make no apology for reading the quotation again: the colleagues of the Chancellor of the Exchequer go on pouring out money and pouring out legislation, which demands new expenditure, and they delay action even to stop or to allay what they admit to be gross abuses of the social legislation already in existence. It does not need an indictment from this House to support the Amendment; it is to be found in the speeches of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The Chancellor of the Exchequer warns the House of the gravity of the situation. Does his colleague, the Minister of Health, consider his warning? The Chancellor of the Exchequer says that we cannot afford to go on as we are going, but the Minister of Health says that no intelligent person would for a moment take into consideration a policy of economy. [ Interruption. ] Yes, on which side are the party that sit behind the Government? Are they with the Chancellor of the Exchequer or with the Minister of Health? We say in this Amendment what the Chancellor of the Exchequer said. Our condemnation of the Government is that they have alike neglected the warning of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and are deliberately pursuing a course which he told them would bring us to disaster.
The trouble which seems to have afflicted the party opposite in the course of this Debate is that they never seem to have made up their minds whether in the course of it they are pursuing the Vote of Censure which they endeavoured to carry in the House a month ago or whether they are going back to the earlier occasion when they were talking amiably about finance and the House was counted out through their ill-attendance. The speech which the right hon. Gentleman has just delivered has balanced itself on both sides of that fence. In the earlier part of his speech, those who had not been in the House until he spoke would have imagined that the speeches from every part of the House had been delivered at a Council of State and had been made on the basis of endeavouring to help the Government to find their way to greater economy and to enable the country's finances to be satisfactorily settled. In the second part of his speech, however, he joined with those Members of his party who had spoken earlier in the Debate and joined in what I would almost call—if he will permit the word—a vicious attack on the Chancellor of the Exchequer and on the Government as a whole. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"] I will justify that statement in a moment.
Hon. Members really cannot divide the Government into two. The Government speaks with one voice on this question and with one intention. Everybody is perfectly aware that in any Government—and it has been true of all Governments—it is the business of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to prevent extravagant expenditure. It is the business of the Ministers, of course, to secure as efficient a service as they can. Ministers put the position in both those ways, but the policy of the Government is one and undivided. When the Minister is explaining and justifying his position, he naturally puts it from his point of view. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, on the other hand, explains perfectly properly that it is the duty of the Treasury and of himself to see that not a penny of public money is wasted or spent otherwise than is perfectly necessary and justifiable.
From that general consideration, let me come to the Debate which has taken place. So far as the Debate has been characterised by an attempt to deal constructively with the financial situation, no one can possibly complain. Everyone in every part of the House is acquainted with the general industrial gravity of the situation as it is in this country to-day. We share this with the world as a whole. It would be as foolish as it would be impossible to attempt to minimise or to get rid of that well-known fact. Equally, it is true that the finances of the Exchequer in the trade slump and prevailing unemployment have a difficult position to face. It is perfectly correct both that the nation is in difficulties as a whole and that the Exchequer is in difficulties at the same time. That will be agreed on every side of the House. Both the Chancellor of the Exchequer and myself and the officials at the Treasury have all through the year been using the greatest efforts to secure economy, using the word in the sense that the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Hamilton) used it. We recognise the need for economy and the need that not one penny shall be extravagantly spent or wasted, but that every penny raised from the taxpayer shall be devoted to services which the country urgently demands.
The right hon. Member for North Cornwall (Sir D. Maclean) asked me if I could give him any information with regard to the committee recently appointed at the suggestion of his party in order to look into the national finances. That committee, under the chairmanship of Sir George May, has already begun its work and every facility has been placed in its way for discovering economies and for reducing unnecessary expenditure. So far as we are concerned, if they can find expenditure that can be cut down, we shall welcome and encourage their findings, but, as I have already explained, it must be within the limits of real economy and not an imaginary economy which strikes at the root of services which the country and the House of Commons as a whole demand.
I listened in vain to the speeches on all sides of the House in the hope of hearing a real constructive contribution in the direction of economy. What were the suggestions of the hon. and gallant Member for Thornbury (Captain Gunston) who moved the Amendment and of his supporter, the hon. and learned Member for Central Nottingham (Mr. O'Connor)? They want us, in the first place, to cut down ruthlessly the roads programmes of this country. I do not believe that is the view of this House—certainly not of the majority and I hope of no considerable minority. So far as I am acquainted with the views of men and women outside the House up and down the country, I believe they support the use of public money at the present time in the great work of improving our roads, a work which will assist to ease the unemployment problem in the country at present. If the hon. Member put his Amendment in the form of a definite proposal to cut down ruthlessly—almost to nothing—the expenditure on roads in this country, I doubt if he would get even half his own party to support him in that proposal. The hon. and gallant Member for Thornbury further suggested the disbandment of several Ministries, including the Ministries of Overseas Trade and of Mines.
Their amalgamation.
Well, the disbandment of certain Ministries and their amalgamation in one omnibus whole. That was exactly the kind of suggestion made in the last Parliament, and the right hon. Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill), in a moment of enthusiasm, adopted it amid the cheers of his party and announced in one of his Budgets that this great counsel of economy was going to be adopted. What happened? The proposal fizzled right out, because when it was gone into, it was found that it would not be economy and that it would be to the great injury of the State. The Conservative party having cheered the announcement to the echo, their courage went down into the bottom of their boots, and they never did anything of the kind. Now that the Conservative party have gone out of office, the hon. and gallant Member for Thornbury trots out the same proposal or suggestion again to the cheers of some of his party, but we are not so foolish as was the former Chancellor of the Exchequer the right hon. Member for Epping in his time to bite at so impossible a bait.
Apart from this, the Debate has taken two forms. First of all, there has been a miscellaneous attack upon the Government, and, of course, I make no complaint, though most of the items in the attack can be easily shown to be fallacious. In addition to the attack upon the Government, there has been an attack upon the trading of this country. Not only has that attack been unwarranted, but what I complain of is that it is injurious to the prosperity towards which all of us in this House ought to help trade. I am going to give an illustration. The hon. and learned Member for Central Nottingham talked of an approach to national bankruptcy, and I venture to suggest that that is an entirely inaccurate term to apply to the state of the nation as a whole. What is bankruptcy? Bankruptcy is when the assets of an individual fail to come up to his liabilities. What are the facts with regard to the nation as a whole? Does anyone suggest for a single moment that our liabilities in this country exceed our assets? That, as everyone knows, is wholly untrue. The actual income of the country even to-day, in this crucial and critical time, is exceeding its expenditure. There is money being put into capital even to-day, when the country is in the parlous condition of which I have already spoken. If you take such organisations as building societies, and if you take the savings in which the Treasury is particularly interested, the National Savings Certificates, you find that in those and other forms the saving is, even at the present time, of a positive character. Therefore, so far from capital failing to be equal to liabilities, the capital of the country is actually being increased at the present day. Of course, last year was an exceptionally bad year. We all know that. But I would remind hon. Members that this is only part of what is happening in all parts of the world.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sevenoaks (Sir H. Young) quoted figures about the falling off of production in this country in recent times. I would remind the right hon. Gentleman and the House that, serious as that is, the falling off during the last year has been less in this country than it has been in the case of the rivals with which we are most closely concerned. He quoted the case of the production of steel. I have no wish whatever to minimise the seriousness and gravity of the position. Our production of steel last year was only 75 per cent. of what it was the year before. But what is the position in America? There it is only 73 per cent. of what it had been the year before. And in Germany it was only 64 per cent. As a matter of fact, compared with our rivals, we have held our own. If you take the general index of production, you have these facts, that the United Kingdom production fell in 1929–30 from an index figure of 106 to 97.8, whereas in Germany it fell from 101.8 to 85, and in the United States from 106 to 88. These figures are taken from an article which Sir Walter Layton has contributed to the "Revue de Paris" and which shows that so far from the reduction in this country being exceptional and due to the Labour Government, which is the suggestion being made by hon. Members opposite, it is part of a world slump, and this country in this respect, as in other respects, has come out better than its rivals.
What is the date of publication?
The date of publication is, I believe, to-morrow. Hon. Members opposite do not seem to be aware that reviews and magazines are very often available to the Press before the nominal publication is made. I think that it is the April issue of the "Revue de Paris." There is a review of the article in the "Times" this morning, and I am quoting from it.
I want to turn from the question of the prosperity of the country as a whole to the question of the Exchequer receipts and payments and the Government credit, which is, of course, more particularly the business of this House and of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and myself. I listened to the speech of the right hon. Member for Sevenoaks which the right hon. Gentleman on the Front Bench commended, but I am sorry to say that my comments are not so favourable. He produced a lot of figures, some of them dealing with the past which can be checked and some dealing with the future, which, of course, though I could do so, I am not entitled to check at the present time. As far as the figures of the past are concerned, I venture to say that many of them were totally incorrect, and, those figures being wrong, the arguments he based upon them are worth exceedingly little. I will give one set of figures with which he dealt. He was talking of the yield of Income Tax, and he said that, so far as he could see, not merely would the estimated increased yield of the Income Tax entirely fail, but very likely—I am sorry that the right hon. Gentleman is not here—the yield of the Income Tax this year would not come up in amount to the yield for last year. I cannot think where he got that extraordinary idea. The only figures we publish which are available are figures up to the 21st March in each year. In the figures up to the 21st March, 1930, the receipts of Income Tax were £225,500,000 and the receipts up to the 21st March of this year were £239,500,000. That is an increase of no less than £14,000,000 on one year, and we anticipated on the whole year a sum of £22,500,000.
Surely sixpence extra was put upon the Income Tax?
Of course it was. The hon. Gentleman has discovered the interesting fact that the increase of Income Tax this year is due very largely to the additional sixpence which was imposed. I thought that the whole House was fully acquainted of that fact. I am speaking of the speech of the right hon. Member for Sevenoaks who has just come into the Chamber. I am quite content to leave his figures with regard to the future to my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he opens his Budget a little less than a month from to-day. I shall certainly call his attention to the prophecies which the right hon. Gentleman has made.
The hon. and learned Member for Central Nottingham attacked the Estimates of the Ministry of Labour and said that we might have expended more upon juvenile training centres. It seems rather peculiar in an economy Debate that I should be called upon to defend a reduction, but, since that point was raised, I thought it necessary to send for an explanation. In the first place, there is a cessation of training for colonisation oversea because the Dominions are not in a position to take any of our people at the present time, and have practically shut down on all migration oversea. It is no use training people to go overseas, when, if they were to go, they could not get employment when they got there. This is responsible for a reduction of over £103,000. The Estimate of last year included a large sum for capital expenditure on new centres and the extension of existing centres. The sum provided for this purpose next year is much smaller, being £47,000 against £176,000, because that capital expenditure having once been spent is not required to be spent again. Some reduction is also due to the fact that certain charges for maintenance of trainees are now provided out of the Unemployment Vote, and finally it is possible to reduce in many respects the running costs.
May I ask the hon. Gentleman about the training of women?
I am answering the particular accusation that we are endeavouring to effect economy on wrong purposes, and I think that I have shown to the House that that is not so. With regard to the other part of the suggestions made from the other side in attacking the Government, I am quite prepared to defend the Government in this respect, that in our purpose of economy we are determined that, hard times though they be, we will not allow those who suffer from unemployment and by being deprived of work, at the same time to suffer starvation or privation, but will uphold their standard of life. I put it to hon. Members opposite: Do they agree with that or do they not? If they do not agree that our expenditure is right, are they prepared to go to the country and tell the people that they are going to cut down ruthlessly the unemployment grant or in many cases take it away? When they were in office they did not entirely take away unemployment grants; therefore, their accusation against us entirely fails.
What is the position of other countries? Do hon. Members opposite want to have the position that prevails in America? Do they want to see in our cities the bread queues which there are in nearly all the great cities of the United States? Supposing that they do want that, supposing that they say that the whole of our system is wrong and that the American system is right, do they imagine that by that means they are going to bring about greater prosperity than we have in this country. What are the facts? Take our great rival, the United States of America. For a long time hon. Members opposite were under the impression that the unemployment in the United States was not as great as it is in this country. The official figures show that there are well over 6,000,000 of unemployed, on the basis on which unemployment is calculated in the United States, which excludes short time unemployment and those who are temporarily out of work. I believe that, all told, the total number of unemployed in the United States is in the neighbourhood of 10,000,000.
Nonsense.
The hon. Member says "nonsense." Does be deny that even the official figures give over 6,000,000. The Ministry of Labour publishes those figures. The official figures are close on 7,000,000, and that does not include those temporarily stopped or those on short time.
I was there a few weeks ago, and I say that the statement of the hon. Member is inaccurate.
If these facts are taken into consideration, I say that the total figure of unemployed in the United States is probably close on, if not over, 10,000,000. Therefore, the effect of their policy of paying no insurance of any kind has not saved America from an industrial situation every whit as bad as, and in many cases worse, than it is in this country. Take the case of Germany, where we find that the figures for unemployment are close on 5,000,000, in a population not very much larger than ours. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] I repeat, on a population not much larger than ours. Hon. Members can do the sum for themselves.
It is nearly 50 per cent. more.
Well, 50 per cent.
Fifty per cent. more population than this country.
The hon. and gallant Member says that their population is 50 per cent. more than ours. Well, their unemployment is double our unemployment. Therefore, our position is much better than the position in Germany. I come now to an important point made by the hon. and gallant Member for Thornbury, the hon. and learned Member for Central Nottingham and the right hon. Member for Sevenoaks with regard to conversion and the credit of the Government. They made scathing denunciations of the Socialist Government, and charged us with having injured the credit of this country. They said that we have put off the date when conversion was possible. The hon. Member for Central Nottingham spoke of long-term credit and singled out two stocks, the conversion 3½ per cent. loan and the 4 per cent. consols, because of the fixed sinking fund attached to them. He said that if there had not been a Socialist Government in office, and if he could bring down the rate of Income Tax, we might raise the price of these stocks to a point at which something real might be done to save money.
What are the facts? I prefer facts to these wonderful theories. I will take the 3½ per cent. conversion loan. When the Conservative Government came into office, in November, 1924, that loan stood at 79¼. The Chancellor of the Exchequer reduced the Income Tax by 6d. and restored the gold standard, and when the Conservative Government went out of office, on the 31st May, 1929, the 3½ per cent. conversion loan had fallen in price to 76, three points down. Then the wicked Socialist Government came into power, and at the present time the price is 78¾. That is the effect of a Socialist Government on national credit, as indicated in the price of the 3½ per cent. conversion loan: the criterion chosen by the hon. Member.
I turn to the 4 per cent. consols. That stock was floated by the late Chancellor of the Exchequer in 1926 at the price of 85, and it stood at 85 when the Conservative Government went out of office, on the 31st May, 1929. To-day it stands at 89. Yet we are charged with injuring the credit of the country. The contrary is proved by the criterion chosen by the hon. Member. The right hon. Member for Sevenoaks was not satisfied with that criterion, but he singled out the power of a Government to borrow for the floating debt. I think he said that that was the surest sign of national credit. I wondered at the right hon. Gentleman saying that, because I remembered, roughly, the figures. The average rate of interest which had to be paid by the country on Treasury Bills in 1928 was £4 6s. 6d. The average rate when the Conservative Government went out of office was £5 2s. It is now £2 10s. The right hon. Member for Sevenoaks laughs. Of course, I am prepared to admit that there are other causes besides the change of Government for the improvement, but it was the right hon. Gentleman himself who ventured to attack this Government on the ground that it had injured the credit of the country, and at the same time he said that the surest sign of credit was the price at which money could be borrowed for the floating debt. I have accepted his challenge, and I have given the House the result.
In so far as this Debate has inculcated the idea of the general need for careful economy, I think it is a very good thing. In so far as it has been an attack upon the Government, I think that after what I have just said and after what was said by the right hon. Member for North Cornwall it has proved to be groundless. In so far as it has been an attack upon the Government under cover of slandering the credit of this country, it has been unworthy of the right hon. and hon. Members who have put it forward. This is no new thing. For years past those who have travelled abroad have known quite well the remarks that were being pityingly said about this poor country being down and out. Those remarks were made on the strength of articles which appeared in the Conservative organs controlled by the rebel barons as they were called until a few days ago, but who have now been embraced within the Conservative fold. Wherever one has gone in Europe or America the same fairy tales of libel against this country have been told, emanating from Members of the Conservative party. Those fairy tales and libels have been extended further to-night, at a time when this country has grave difficulties to face. Those difficulties will be made greater by the sort of remarks that emanate from the party opposite, but those difficulties can be met, and this country will hold its head high in spite of the libellous slandering assertions of the party opposite.
Before the House goes to a Division—[ Interruption. ]
I believe the right hon. Gentleman only wants to ask a question.
I ask leave to put a question to the right hon. Member for West Birmingham (Sir A. Chamberlain) or to any other representative on the Front Opposition Bench. I did not like to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman during his speech, and I should like to ask him, in a very few words, an important question. He replied to the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for North Cornwall (Sir D. Maclean) and treated that speech with some severity, but he did not answer one of the main arguments put forward by my right hon. Friend. It is this: is it not the case that the Leader of the Conservative party in his recent speech at Newton Abbot said that one exception could be made to the general rule of economy, and that was that the present Government had reduced too much the Naval Estimates and that more expenditure should be incurred upon the Navy. That may be right or it may be wrong, but that is not the ruthless economy that is demanded in this Motion. Is it not the case that the Leader of the Conservative party in a previous speech said that his party proposed to enable the farmer to grow wheat at a remunerative price, and to do so without raising the cost of the food of the people. That may be right or it may be wrong, but it cannot be done without a vast subsidy at the expense of the Exchequer. Is it not the case that the right hon. Gentleman also said that he proposed to secure the doubling of the area of cultivation under beet, which must cause an immense increase in expenditure from the Exchequer. Will the right hon. Member for West Birmingham deny that that is the policy of his party, and, if so, how can he come to this House and expect us to regard as sincere a Motion which calls for ruthless economy?
rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put," but Mr. SPEAKER withheld his assent, and declined then to put that Question.
I do not intend to take up more than a few moments of the time of the House. [ Interruption. ]
We shall get a Division all the quicker if hon. Members will not interrupt.
I rise because of the remarks of the Financial Secretary in respect to unemployment in America. He has said that fairy tales have been spread with regard to the financial position of this country but I must say that he has been giving the House a few fairy tales in regard to the industrial situation in the United States. I was there three weeks ago and I took the opportunity of visiting various centres, Chicago, New York and Philadelphia, in order to find out the exact state of affairs. The Financial Secretary told us that he was giving us official figures. Where are they from? No official statistics are issued in the United States. A prominent industrialist, who during the War was one of the advisers to the Government of the United States on the industrial situation, told me that in his opinion at no time had the number of unemployed amounted to more than 4,000,000. The statement of the Financial Secretary with regard to bread queues in the various cities is not true. I have been through miles of streets in New York and have only seen one queue. The statement that the position in America and Germany is far worse than in this country is made for the purpose of minimising the seriousness of the situation here and misleading the people as to the real nature of the situation. Let the hon. Member go to the West Riding of Yorkshire and he will see there many men who a few years ago were wealthy men who to-day are poor and almost penniless, and the Government has not lifted a single finger to improve the situation in the North of England during the two years they have been in office. As long as the Government continues this orgy of expenditure just as surely will it dry up those streams of endeavour and initiative which are the lifeblood of this country.
It should be possible for an ordinary member of the common people to say something about economy. We have to practise it all our lives, we have never been able to be extravagant. According to hon. Members opposite every service designed for the purpose of helping the common people of this country must be cut down. They will not agree to expenditure on education, and they desire that unemployment benefit should be cut down. They will not agree to the development of our social services. Indeed, what they are asking for is the cutting down of every one of the services to the poor of the nation. Every reduction in taxation means that the rich are going to get bigger profits and the poor receive nothing. Hon. Members opposite, who have never done a honest day's work
in their lives, talk about the iniquity of giving a man unemployment benefit, it should be cut down and the individual should go to the public assistance committee. Thousands of pounds have been presented to prosperous firms in my constituency, some of which are paying 25 per cent. dividend. That is not a dole; it is a presentation for services rendered. They are supporters of the party opposite and the De-Rating Act was a present to the capitalist class of this country for services rendered to the Conservative party. Now they say that we must cut down our social services, that the nation cannot afford the expenditure. That means that some 300,000 men will be forced on to the public assistance committee, and the local authorities will have to carry the burden.
If you want real economy you should start at the top. There seems to be an idea that an economy campaign must start with the cutting down of the services to the workers. Other people receive services from the State. Let us have real economy and come down right from the top to the bottom. Then some hon. Members opposite would probably feel a draught. They would have to prove where they got their wealth, and whether they were entitled to it. If hon. Members opposite are going to start an economy stunt at the expense of the workers we shall start an economy campaign to find out whether they are entitled to the money they have, and whether they are worth it to the State in the future.
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
The House divided: Ayes, 247; Noes, 219.
Division No. 208.] AYES. [7.58 p.m. Adamson, Ht. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Benson, G. Cape, Thomas Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale) Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.) Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret Charleton, H. C. Aitchison, Rt. Hon. Craigie M. Bowen, J. W. Chater, Daniel Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro') Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Church, Major A. G. Alpass, J. H. Broad, Francis Alfred Cluse, W. S. Ammon, Charles George Brockway, A. Fenner Cocks, Frederick Seymour Angell, Sir Norman Bromfield, William Compton, Joseph Arnott, John Bromley, J. Cove, William G. Aske, Sir Robert Brooke, W. Daggar, George Ayles, Walter Brothers, M. Dallas, George Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Brown, C. W. E. (Notts, Mansfield) Davies, D. L. (Pontypridd) Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley) Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire) Day, Harry Barnes, Alfred John Buchanan, G. Denman, Hon. R. D. Barr, James Burgess, F. G. Dudgeon, Major C. R. Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland) Dukes, C. Bennett, Sir E. N. (Cardiff, Central) Caine, Hall-, Derwent Duncan, Charles Bennett, William (Battersea, South) Cameron, A. G. Ede, James Chuter Edmunds, J. E. Leach, W. Raynes, W. R. Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Lee, Frank (Derby, N. E.) Richards, R. Edwards, E. (Morpeth) Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Egan, W. H. Lees, J. Riley, Ben (Dewsbury) Elmley, Viscount Lewis, T. (Southampton) Ritson, J. Foot, Isaac Lloyd, C. Ellis Romeril, H. G. Freeman, Peter Logan, David Gilbert Rosbotham, D. S. T. Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) Longbottom, A. W. Rowson, Guy George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) Longden, F. Salter, Dr. Alfred George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea) Lovat-Fraser, J. A. Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen) Gibson, H. M. (Lancs, Mossley) Lunn, William Sanders, W. S. Gill, T. H. MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham) Sawyer, G. F. Gillett, George M. MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw) Scurr, John Glassey, A. E. McElwee, A. Shakespeare, Geoffrey H. Gossling, A. G. McEntee, V. L. Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) McGovern, J. (Glasgow, Shettleston) Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) McKinlay, A. Sherwood, G. H. Gray, Milner MacLaren, Andrew Shield, George William Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne) Maclean, Sir Donald (Cornwall, N.) Shield, Dr. Drummond Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Shillaker, J. F. Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.) Mander, Geoffrey le M. Shinwell, E. Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Manning, E. L. Simmons, C. J. Groves, Thomas E. Mansfield, W. Sinclair, Sir A. (Caithness) Grundy, Thomas W. March, S. Sitch, Charles H. Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Marcus, M. Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) Marley, J. Smith, Lees-, H. B. Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.) Marshall, Fred Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn) Mathers, George Smith, Tom (Pontefract) Harbord, A. Matters, L. W. Smith, W. R. (Norwich) Hardie, George D. Maxton, James Snowden, Thomas (Accrington) Hastings, Dr. Somerville Messer, Fred Sorensen, R. Haycock, A. W. Middleton, G. Stamford, Thomas W. Hayday, Arthur Milner, Major J. Stephen, Campbell Hayes, John Henry Montague, Frederick Strauss, G. R. Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Morgan, Dr. H. B. Sullivan, J. Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.) Morley, Ralph Sutton, J. E. Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) Morris, Rhys Hopkins Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln) Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh) Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.) Herriotts, J. Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.) Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby) Hirst, G. H. (York W.R. Wentworth) Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.) Thorne, W. (West Ham. Plaistow) Hoffman, P. C. Mort, D. L. Thurtle, Ernest Hollins, A. Muff, G. Tillett, Ben Hopkin, Daniel Muggeridge, H. T. Toole, Joseph Horrabin, J. F. Murnin, Hugh Tout, W. J. Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) Naylor, T. E. Townend, A. E. Isaacs, George Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Vaughan, David Jenkins, Sir William Noel Baker, P. J. Viant, S. P. John, William (Rhondda, West) Noel-Buxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N.) Walkden, A. G. Johnston, Thomas Oldfield, J. R. Walker, J. Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston) Wallace, H. W. Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne) Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley) Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Owen, Major G. (Carnarvon) Wellock, Wilfred Jowitt, Sir W. A. (Preston) Palin, John Henry. Welsh, James (Paisley) Kelly, W. T. Palmer, E. T. West, F. R. Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Westwood, Joseph Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Perry, S. F. White, H. G. Kinley, J. Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood) Kirkwood, D. Phillips, Dr. Marion Wilkinson, Ellen C. Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George Picton-Turbervill, Edith Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Lathan, G. Pole, Major D. G. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Law, Albert (Bolton) Potts, John S. Winterton, G. E. (Leicester, Loughb'gh) Law, A. (Rossendale) Price, M. P. Wise, E. F. Lawrence, Susan Quibell, D. J. K. Young, R. S. (Islington, North) Lawson, John James Ramsay, T. B. Wilson Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle) Rathbone, Eleanor TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Mr. Paling and Mr. B. Smith.
NOES. Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Betterton, Sir Henry B. Butt, Sir Alfred Albery, Irving James Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Bird, Ernest Roy Campbell, E. T. Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l., W.) Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Carver, Major W. H. Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart Castle Stewart, Earl of Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W. Cautley, Sir Henry S. Astor, Viscountess Boyce, Leslie Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Atholl, Duchess of Bracken, B. Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.) Atkinson, C. Brass, Captain Sir William Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Baillie-Hamilton, Hon. Charles W. Briscoe, Richard George Chamberlain Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.) Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley) Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston) Balfour, George (Hampstead) Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T. Chapman, Sir S. Balniel, Lord Buchan, John Christie, J. A. Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Buckingham, Sir H. Clydesdale, Marquess of Bellairs, Commander Carlyon Burton, Colonel H. W. Cobb, Sir Cyril Berry, Sir George Butler, R. A. Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George Cohen, Major J. Brunel Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Remer, John R. Colfox, Major William Philip Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Reynolds, Col. Sir James Colman, N. C. D. Hennessy, Major Sir G. H. J. Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall) Colville, Major D. J. Herbert, Sir Dennis (Hertford) Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Conway, Sir W. Martin Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller Ruggles-Brise, Colonel E. Cooper, A. Duff Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Courtauld, Major J. S. Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Salmon, Major I. Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Cranborne, Viscount Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Crichton-Stuart, Lord C. Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Hurst, Sir Gerald B. Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D. Crookshank, Capt. H. C. Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R. Savery, S. S. Croom-Johnson, R. P. Inskip, Sir Thomas Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West) Iveagh, Countess of Simms, Major-General J. Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Dalkeith, Earl of Kindersley, Major G. M. Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's U., Belfst) Dalrymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey Knox, Sir Alfred Skelton, A. N. Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford) Lamb, Sir J. Q. Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) Davies, Dr. Vernon Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Law, Sir Alfred (Derby, High Peak) Smith-Carington, Neville W. Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Leighton, Major B. E. P. Smithers, Waldron Dawson, Sir Philip Lewis, Oswald (Colchester) Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Despencer-Robertson, Major J. A. F. Little, Graham-, Sir Ernest Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East) Dixey, A. C. Llewellin, Major J. J. Southby, Commander A. R. J. Duckworth, G. A. V. Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Dugdale, Capt. T. L. Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th) Stanley, Lord (Fylde) Eden, Captain Anthony Lockwood, Captain J. H. Stanley, Hon. O. (Westmorland) Edmondson, Major A. J. Long, Major Hon. Eric Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur Elliot, Major Walter E. Macdonald, Sir M. (Inverness) Stewart, W. J. (Belfast South) Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Everard, W. Lindsay Macquisten, F. A. Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A. Falle, Sir Bertram G. Maitland, A. (Kent. Faversham) Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton) Ferguson, Sir John Makins, Brigadier-General E. Thompson, Luke Fermoy, Lord Margesson, Captain H. D. Thomson, Sir F. Fielden, E. B. Marjoribanks, Edward Tinne, J. A. Fison, F. G. Clavering Mason, Colonel Glyn K. Titchfield, Major the Marquess of Ford, Sir P. J. Meller, R. J. Todd, Capt. A. J. Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Merriman, Sir F. Boyd Train, J. Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Milne, Wardlaw-, J. S. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Galbraith, J. F. W. Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Turton, Robert Hugh Gault, Lieut.-Col. A. Hamilton Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley) Moore, Sir Newton J. (Richmond) Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey) Glyn, Major R. G. C. Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert Gower, Sir Robert Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester) Warrender, Sir Victor Grace, John Muirhead, A. J. Waterhouse, Captain Charles Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Wayland, Sir William A. Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Nicholson, O. (Westminster) Wells, Sydney R. Greene, W. P. Crawford Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld) Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay) Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Oman, Sir Charles William C. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John O'Neill, Sir H. Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Gritten, W. G. Howard Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William Withers, Sir John James Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Womersley, W. J. Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Pilditch, Sir Philip Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford) Pownall, Sir Assheton Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Ramsbotham, H. Hartington, Marquess of Rawson, Sir Cooper TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Reid, David D. (County Down) Captain Gunston and Mr. O'Connor.
Main Question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," put, and agreed to.
Supply accordingly considered in Committee.
[Sir ROBERT YOUNG in the Chair.]
Civil Estimates, 1931
Class VII
Art and Science Buildings, Great Britain
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a sum, not exceeding £318,200, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1932, for Expenditure in respect of Art and Science Buildings, Great Britain.—[NOTE: £158,000 has been voted on account.]
I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman opposite some questions about one or two points in connection with this Estimate. The expenditure on these services is issued year by year. In 1930 there was an increase of £69,100 and in 1931 there was an increase of £146,100 over 1930. If hon. Members will look at Sub-head A, which is the Sub-head dealing with "New Works, Alterations, Additions and Purchases," they will see that there is an increase of £104,000 odd. I want to ask the hon. Gentleman tonight—and I think this is a substantial point—About the British Museum. If he looks at Sub-head A he will find that there is a British Museum Repository at Hendon and the erection of a building for a newspaper department. In 1929, £16,000 was asked for that. In 1930, £20,000 was asked for that, and this year no less than £42,900 is being asked. That is an increase of nearly £23,000; that is to say, for this newspaper building, apparently, there is an increase representing nearly one quarter of the whole of the increase under Sub-head A.
I want to ask the hon. Gentleman—I shall restrict myself to this one question—what are the powers of the trustees under the various Acts of Parliament? As I understand it, every single book which is published in this country for sale, every single newspaper published for sale, every single piece of music published for sale, has to be deposited with the British Museum. That is to say, there is a vast mountain of books and newspapers which are deposited with the British Museum every single year, and, if this continues in years to come, it will not merely be a mountain; it will be a range of mountains. I submit, and I think I shall carry the Committee with me, that this cannot go on for ever. After all, some of the books and some of the newspapers—I am sure a great many of them—are absolutely valueless from the public point of view. In fact, it is highly improbable that a large number of these books and newspapers—especially newspapers—will ever be wanted in the future either for the purposes of reading or for the purposes of reference. Are we to go on accumulating this assemblage of rubbish year after year? We are to spend £23,000 this year on a new building to hold all these additional newspapers that are coming in.
I want to ask the hon. Gentleman: What are the powers of the trustees under the various Acts of Parliament? I find the British Museum Act, 1766, empowered the trustees to order any duplicates of printed books, etc., to be exchanged, or they were empowered to direct any such surplus books to be sold or disposed of. Well, that is a long time ago. Then I find the British Museum Act of 1807 made it lawful for the trustees to order any articles for the said museum which they then judged to be unfit to be preserved therein to be exchanged, and it also empowered them to direct the same to be sold or disposed of. That might be considered still to be rather ancient history. Then we get to the British Museum Act of 1878, and under that Act the trustees of the British Museum may also give away duplicate works, objects or specimens not required for the purposes of the museum. Then we get down to more recent history, and we find that the Act of 1916 states:
If the great volume of newspapers that is now being published goes on, there will be such a huge pile that if they catch light, they will set fire to the world.
That is exactly what I want to know. I want to know if they are liable to be set on fire. I would be very relieved, indeed, if a great many of them were. It seems quite unnecessary to ask the taxpayers for £23,000, or whatever it may be, to build a building to contain enormous quantities of daily and evening newspapers which will not be of the slightest interest to future generations.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman why the last Government did not take up this matter, when asked to get rid of the accumulation of newspapers?
That does not arise now
I am only asking what the trustees' powers are. I am not saying that they are not carrying out their duties. I want to know whether this building is really required. If this vast accumulation—and it is a terriffic accumulation—goes on from day to day and from year to year, the First Commissioner of Works, whoever he may be, will have to come periodically for money to build a building to hold all these papers and for staffs to look after them. The time has come to review the whole situation. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will tell us what the powers of the trustees are. I cannot suggest any alteration of an Act of Parliament, but perhaps he will give us the details. I may have jumped this question on him rather unexpectedly, and if he cannot give me any details now, perhaps he may be able to do so on the Report stage. I am not asking him to bring in any legislation, or to modify existing Acts. I want to know if the trustees are using the powers that they already have, and what is really the position with regard to this mountain of stuff? The time will come when it will have to be disposed of.
I was deeply interested in the speech that we have just heard, and I have tried to use my imagination on the point. I understand that the right hon. Gentleman is the author of the idea of having a new building for these newspapers. I have no doubt that there is a lot of rubbish in these newspapers; it is not as if they were filled with nothing but the speeches of the hon. Member for Torquay (Mr. C. Williams). There is another question I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman in connection with this subhead. What is meant by the word "bindery"? I could understand if he said "new binding," but "bindery" seems to be a curious word. It may be some technical word which is of value, but it seems to be strange.
May I draw your attention, Sir Robert, to the fact that there are not 40 Members present.
May I draw the hon. Member's attention to the fact that it is beyond the time for that Motion?
The hon. Member has put his foot in it, as usual when he gets up to deal with me. May I go on with the question of the newspapers? I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman if there is any method of destroying the newspapers after a certain number of years? Something must be done about this question. It cannot go on indefinitely. Obviously, some papers ought to be kept. The Minister has dealt with other questions, and we have had a lido and things of that sort. I do not see why he should not deal with the newspaper mountain.
We have been hearing a great deal about research; I see there is an item in this Estimate for the building of a new research station at Watford. The item is:
May I remind the hon. Member that this is an expenditure for research in steel? It may be for many things other than housing, and it is not necessary to discuss housing.
I quite agree. I was not going to discuss housing. I was going to discuss other matters in steel. I will not go into it at great length, but I think we are clearly entitled to know some of the results of these researches in steel and to see whether we are getting value for money. The next item relates to the erection of a new storey to the laboratory block of the fuel research station at Greenwich. Am I right in concluding that the right hon. Gentleman will be able to tell me whether this fuel research is confined to researches into coal and the getting of fuel out of coal, or whether it is extended in any other way? For instance, are any researches conducted into peat? There is a certain amount of talk about research in connection with peat, and as I presume that would be included in fuel research, I would like to know if anything is being done under this sub-head in that respect. I observe that these buildings are being erected at a cost of over £13,000, and that the amount to be expended on the fuel research station is over £2,000 but, in addition to that, there is an item for provision of railway sidings, roads, foundations and roofs for coke oven plant and building for benzol plant, amounting to over £15,000. That seems to involve a tremendous increase on the amount voted last year, and I should like to know more about this item. What is the capacity of this coke oven plant? It is very important that on this occasion we should be informed as to how valuable these items are. Every one of us would be glad to know that the Government are really active in this matter. I would be the last to object to the Government expending this money if I could see any practical result from that expenditure from a business point of view. I am sure if it does anything to bring profits to business the right hon. Gentleman the First Commissioner will be the first to support it.
On page 9 of the Estimates I find one of the few cases in which there is an increased amount in the case of England and Wales greater than the corresponding increase in the case of Scotland. This is an item for the repair and replacement of museum fittings, show cases, storage cabinets and so on. The increase under this head for 1931 over 1930 is enormous, the amount having been considerably more than doubled. The figure for 1931 is £51,430 compared with £23,030. That seems a colossal increase in one year under such a head as this. I notice that it also includes the supply of additional fittings, show cases, etc. Does the provision of additional show cases mean that there are new collections to be accommodated or that the old show cases are worn out? Then one would also like to know why in this case has Scotland been more economical. In the case of Scotland the sum this year is £2,650 ompared with £2,785 last year. Surely in the case of an educated people like the Scottish there ought not to be a reduction of that kind. Scotland seems to have had more than a fair proportion last year, but they do not appear to have anything like a fair proportion this year. Has the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for Scotland been thrifty for once, or what is the explanation of these figures?
I would also direct the right hon. Gentleman's attention to the item for fuel, gas, electric current and water. In this case the amount for England and Wales shows a decrease from last year but in the case of Scotland there is an increase of £80, and even that is a considerable increase in these hard times. On all these heads, D, E and F there seems to have been a deliberate effort by the Department to economise where possible, and, as far as England is concerned it seems to have been possible to effect considerable economy but that does not appear to have been the case in regard to Scotland. These facts would show that the right hon. Gentleman has been attending to his work nearer home, and has not been able to do much with regard to the work in Scotland and perhaps he ought to pay a visit there and to see whether some economies cannot be effected also in Scotland in these items of rents and caretaking and so forth.
I notice on page 8 among the proposed works an item "Bethlem Royal Hospital. Adaptation for Imperial War Museum" which represents a sum of £50,000. That is a very large sum and we are entitled to know precisely what is being done to this hospital. I do not suppose that the right hon. Gentleman can give us all the details this evening but I am sure that in connection with a large sum of this kind it would be his own desire to explain to the Committee all about this proposal which is apparently to convert a hospital into a war museum. It may be that I am interpreting the words wrongly but I think we ought to have an explanation upon this matter. I think the right hon. Gentleman ought to tell us what is happening in connection with this hospital. These Estimates on the whole are very serious—
May I call attention to the fact, that the hon. Member has now two supporters?
The hon. Member for West Salford (Mr. Haycock) must really have some regard for the dignity of the Committee.
The hon. Member for Torquay (Mr. C. Williams) ought to have some regard for it.
When the hon. Gentleman has been a Member of the House of Commons longer he will realise that one of the primary duties of the House of Commons is to examine Estimates carefully and in detail. That has been held up as one of the privileges of Members of the House of Commons for generations, and, if it were done more thoroughly, it would be a good thing. There are increases in nearly every department of the Estimate. We have just heard in the last Debate of the necessity for economy, but here there is an increase for new works of £104,000, an increase of furniture and removals of £28,000, and other minor increases, bringing the total to £132,000. There are two small decreases in maintenance and repairs, and in fuel, gas and electric current, which amount to just over £9,000. I can appreciate the decrease in the last item, but in saving on maintenance and repairs of buildings, you are liable to put off something which it is important to do now. If the right hon. Gentleman assures me that there is no case where repairs have been put off, I must accept it, but it is really better economy not to build new buildings which will take a lot of upkeep, but to keep existing buildings in a good state of repair. A large number of the buildings on which there is increased expenditure are of an ornamental character. I want to see the best museums possible, but new museums are not so essential to-day.
On page 7 there: is an item under Scotland:
This matter does not arise on this Estimate, which deals only with alterations to provide additional accommodation for the Department of Geology. The other matter is given only for information.
I thought perhaps that was so, and I apologise if I have strayed. What are the alterations that are being made; and ape they all being done in one year, or will they cover several years? An important, point has been brought to my notice in this Estimate:
"Natural History Museum: Erection of new Whale room (first section) (re-vote £2,100). Works Service £34,000."
The first section of this whale room apparently has been or is being done; how many sections are to be completed, and how many years is it proposed to occupy in finishing the whale room? It is obvious that it is very much needed.
Hear, hear!
I am glad to see that the Liberal party are taking an interest in this matter, for I have no doubt that next year we shall have an Estimate for a room for the remains of the Liberal party.
I am tempted to deal with the question of museums, as I am always very much concerned about museums whenever I look across the Floor of the House; but the point I wish to raise is concerned with the Bethlem Royal Hospital, which is being adapted for the Imperial War Museum. I was under the impression that that building in Lambeth, with the grounds, attached, was to become an open space rather than be converted into a war museum. Is it intended to use the whole of the hospital and grounds as a museum? There is an item of £50,000 for it in this Estimate, of which £5,000 is to be spent next year and £45,000 later. To use that place as a war museum would be rather an abuse of a splendid site which would be far better used as an open space for the children of that part of London.
I do not complain at all of the questions which have been raised by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wood Green (Mr. G. Locker-Lampson) or the hon. Member for Torquay (Mr. C. Williams) with regard to the Estimates generally and the increases shown this year since it was determined to carry out these various works. Decisions in these matters were taken before I came into office, and I am just carrying on the policy laid down by my predecessors. This is an example of continuity of policy. Up to now we have been engaged only upon the foundations, and the expenditure has been much, less than is necessary when one comes to erect the structures themselves, and that explains very largely the increase of £100,000 on new works, alterations, etc. As to the furniture and other accessories, same parts of the buildings are finished and we must furnish them, with the cabinets required for the exhibits. The bindery is, I understand, the place where the binding of the books is carried out. I think it is a very nice word indeed. There is nothing to worry about in that.
The task of storing newspapers is an enormous undertaking. Newspapers increase and multiply to an alarming extent, even in the Metropolis. I am speaking now subject to correction, but I believe the museum authorities are obliged to keep certain newspapers and are not permitted to destroy them. There has never been any question of destroying them, so far as I know, and the Royal Commission on Museums recommended that we should remove the place of storage from the museum in the centre of London, where things were getting very congested, to a place at Hendon. My predecessors agreed that it was a good thing to do, and we are doing it, but the question whether it ought to be done, is one for the Treasury, who answer in this House for the museums, and not for me. I am just an agent in the matter, making provision for storage and for exhibits according to the requests presented to me, with the sanction of the Treasury. Whether the museum authorities ought to continue to store all the London newspapers, all the pearls of wisdom in the Parliamentary papers, all the colonial and foreign newspapers and all the provincial newspapers, is another matter. I understand that by Act of Parliament the museum authorities have to store them, and it is an enormous business. We are carrying out the proposal of the Royal Commission on Museums by building a new store outside the county area at Hendon.
In regard to the laboratory where structural steelwork and concrete are tested, here again I would point out that it is not my business to answer for the Committee of Industrial and Scientific Research. All I have to do is to provide the building and the equipment in order that the Department may carry on its work, subject, of course, to the Treasury and to this House, and therefore I cannot say what kind of steel or concrete is being tested. All I can say is that in order to carry out the research work this building at Watford is necessary. The same remarks apply to the Fuel Research Department at Greenwich. The railway sidings are necessary for bringing in the coal, and for taking out the coke or coalite after the experiments have been undertaken. It is for someone else to reply to any questions regarding policy and the kind of research that is carried on.
I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will excuse me for interrupting him, but here we are spending considerable sums of money and apparently the right hon. Gentleman is not in a position to answer questions regarding that expenditure. He has done his level best, and I am not complaining in any way about him, but ought not a Minister who can answer to be present?
I have taken the Chair in the middle of the Debate and am at a disadvantage, but it appears to me that the right hon. Gentleman is responsible only for providing the accommodation for research work. He is not the Minister to whom these other questions of policy should be addressed. On this particular Vote the only subject under discussion is the provision of the necessary accommodation.
I am sorry if I did not make myself clear, but how are we to know that this is the right sort of accommodation? The Departments ask for the accommodation and the Minister provides it, and if we are to know that this accommodation is necessary we ought to have an opportunity of asking the Ministers concerned.
The Office of Works is responsible for providing the accommodation and the equipment required. Whether they are of the right kind or not is a matter for which the right hon. Gentleman is not responsible.
But I do not see how we can primarily be asked to vote the money if we do not know that.
I observe that these Estimates are brought forward by a particular Department, and I think the Financial Secretary to the Treasury should be there to supplement any replies given by the representative of the Department. I note that £23,000 is required for a building in which to store newspapers, and the right hon. Gentleman has not told us why this is necessary.
I replied that the Act of Parliament says that we must do it.
What are the duties to be carried out by the trustees? The right hon. Gentleman says that the only person who can answer a question with regard to the trustees is the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, and I think he ought to be present during this Debate. I do not press that point now, but I think it is always advisable that there should be some representative of the Treasury present.
Is it not a fact that in previous years the same difficulty has arisen? The Financial Secretary is the only medium for passing through a claim for money.
I propose to raise this question again on the Report stage.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wood Green (Mr. Locker-Lampson) has asked me what is the power of the trustees, and why are we making this provision to store the newspapers. I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that the trustees have power to destroy those newspapers, and that it is no use continuing buying them.
No.
Then I cannot understand what the right hon. Gentleman's question was. I understood that he referred to the futility of storing all these newspapers year after year, and of building places in which to keep them, because in the future people would not be interested in the mass of newspapers which we are accumulating. I replied that there were certain things which the trustees have to do. I understand that they have no power to destroy those newspapers, and if the Committee desires that they should have that power, it can be given only by legislation. Even if the Financial Secretary were present, I am sure he could give only the same answer as that which I have given.
9.0 p.m.
With regard to Bethlem Royal Hospital, I think the public of London are grateful to Lord Rothermere for making it possible for us to make use of part of that fine estate. Originally, it was proposed to pull down the whole building, but it has now been decided that the War Museum in the Western Galleries adjoining the Imperial Institute should be transferred to part of the building. A deputation waited upon myself and Lord Rothermere, and we took the matter up that some portion of the Bethlem Hospital should be used for this purpose, and it was finally decided that this should be done. It will be necessary to obtain powers from Parliament to alter the original Act for dealing with Bethlem Hospital. Lord Rothermere and the London County Council have agreed, and we are now asking the House to agree, to a proposal to use one portion of Bethlem Hospital for the purpose of housing the War Museum. The London County Council are of opinion that the museum would be an advantage to the public, as there is no building in the vicinity which can be used in bad weather. A 999 years lease is being negotiated at £1 a year rent to carry out this object. That is how the Bethlem Hospital is to be dealt with in conjunction with the London County Council and ourselves.
I asked a question about the Geological Survey Office at Edinburgh.
The item for the Geological Survey Office arises because it is necessary to provide accommodation for the storage of geological collections which have been steadily increasing, and this is a statutory obligation under the Mining Industries Act. At the present time, the collections are inadequately housed in the basement, which is subject to damp. This involves a great risk to specimens, and may render them useless.
With regard to Items D, E and F, I should like to ask why Scotland is going up and England is going down. Will the right hon. Gentleman look into this matter?
The one is going up and the other is going down because it is necessary that the one should go up, and it is equally necessary that the other should go down.
Really, this is a serious matter. The right hon. Gentleman may not be able to tell me now, but I am sure he will let me have an answer as to why there should be this systematic rise in the one case, which is far away from his influence, while where he has influence there is a reduction. I was giving him great praise, and pointing out that he was getting a reduction in certain matters, and I was asking whether he could not look into this Scottish matter and see if he cannot do the same there? If he will give me an assurance to that effect, I shall be perfectly satisfied.
With regard to Sub-head (C) of Vote 8—Maintenance and Repair of Public Offices, etc.—I understand, from a reply which the right hon. Gentleman gave some little while ago, that it is his intention to carry out the greater part of this work from the end of the present financial year, in London and Edinburgh, without the intervention of a contractor. I should be glad if he could give me some particulars as to the extent to which that will be carried out, the number of men transferred to his Department, and whether every consideration will be given to those men who, for all practical purposes, have been in direct employment continuously for many years, in some cases 35 and 40 years, and yet, because of the bad old system of paying for wages and material through a contractor, they have not had the benefit of being in the Government service. That system has prevailed for a very long time, and was simply a gift to certain favoured contractors. All instructions and all particulars of work were given directly by the staff of the Department. Men were engaged or discharged, work was extended, and material was ordered by those officials, but, instead of the men being paid directly by the Department, they were paid in the name of a contractor, who got a percentage on all the work carried out. The abolition of that system is long overdue. There is no question of competition for that class of work. I hope that my right hon. Friend will continue to extend his proposed method as far as possible in areas where he has sufficient work for a permanent staff, and I should like to ask what he is going to do about the older employés who have served faithfully for all these years, and many of whom have no provision for a gratuity at the end of their service, as they would have if they had been employed directly by his Department. Will they be given some extension of age so that they may carry on, and receive a gratuity at the end of their service, and will provision be made for them in regard to annual holidays and so on?
Would the hon. Member tell the Committee to what class of work he is referring?
The maintenance and repair of public offices—buildings in Whitehall, post offices, telephone exchanges, museums, and, I believe, the Law Courts, and even the County Courts. It is often my privilege to give a litle help to war pensioners at the final Appeal Court, which is held at the Law Courts, and, whenever I go there, I am ashamed to see a public building whose corridors and rooms are in such a bad state.
The Law Courts do not come under this Vote.
Then I will not pursue that point, but it is the fact that in many parts of these buildings such work is largely neglected. From time to time my right hon. Friend has given attention to these matters, and he is improving them, and I hope he will see that, when things are renovated, the same character of good workmanship is retained which marked those things when they were originally made. For instance, there is in the map room of the Library what I think is called a chronological globe, which was a very fine piece of instrument maker's work as regards finish. It has been renovated, and now it looks like a cheap piece of Brummagem—
The only buildings to which the hon. Member is entitled to call attention are the buildings provided for in this particular Vote.
Is not the House of Commons a museum?
On page 10 there is a Vote for Houses of Parliament Buildings—
We are not there yet.
I desire to refer to the item at the bottom of page 5:
On page 6, I find an item of £12,000 for the National Gallery: Installation of electric lighting, for which a further amount of £9,000 is required, while the next item also relates to installation of electric lighting, at the National Gallery of British Art. As an old chairman of a provincial museum, I know of nothing in regard to which greater mistakes can be made more easily than in lighting a museum, and although I should not demur to the expenditure of money at the National Gallery and at the National Gallery of British Art, I hope that, in regard to the lighting of these two buildings, nothing will be done except step by step. Experiments should be made before any large sum is expended upon the lighting of pictures. Next to lighting pictures by ordinary daylight, the most difficult thing in the world is to know how to put in electric lighting to show pictures properly. If £9,000 is to be spent in one building, and £3,000 in another, I hope that whatever is put in will only be put in temporarily, so that the public can see, before larger sums are spent, that the lighting is in accord with the necessities of the building.
As regards the Geological Museum, the reason why there is no appropriation in aid is that this site goes back to the Commissioners of Crown Lands, and, therefore, it does not appear here. They will make whatever use of it they think necessary or desirable in the public interest. They might conceivably sell the site, but they are much more likely to use it. It is a very valuable site. The hon. Gentleman, however, may rest assured that there is no loss on account of there being no appropriation in aid.
If my memory serves me, steps have been taken, if not brought to a conclusion, to let the place and a large sum of money will be available. I hope the hon. Gentleman will tell us whether it has been let to a new tenant and for what purpose it is going to be used.
That will come on the Vote for Crown Lands. The hon. Gentleman is entitled to ask why we do not show it here, and the answer is that the site goes back to the Crown Lands, and he must take the opportunity to raise the point on that Vote.
I hope the hon. Gentleman will give the information in due course.
I want to thank the right hon. Gentleman for the explanation he has given with regard to the Bethlem Free Hospital, but £5,000 has been expended, and there is a possibility of another £45,000 being expended, and I ask him not to expend much more on its adaptation for a museum until the Bill has passed the House. I feel a little concerned. I have only heard this evening that it is going to be used for that purpose. If they are going to turn a portion of the buildings into a war museum rather than use them for the purpose we were told they were to be used for, we should at least pass the Bill before anything is done that is going to commit us too far.
No money has been spent yet. There has been £5,000 voted, but we are not spending a penny on adapting the building until it is quite certain that the museum is to be moved there. I think it is practically certain that it will be so, and the Committee can take it for granted that that is a fact. The county council has pointed out that there is no shelter there, and no accommodation in bad weather, and, even if you did not leave a portion of the building, in all probability you would have to erect some other buildings on the site. A Bill will have to come before the House. There has been delay in getting on with the new Geological Museum, but the difficulties have been surmounted only to-day.
What exactly are they?
It has been a question as to the building and the accommodation. When you are putting up a building of any kind and you are, as we are, acting agents, there is a great deal of discussion as to how it shall be done and what adaptations shall be made, and it is not always, easy to get agreement. Agreement has been come to now, and I am hoping that the work will go ahead and will soon be finished. I agree with the hon. Gentleman in the matter of lighting. We have a total estimate for the National Gallery of £12,000. We have spent only £1,000 and we are only proposing to spend £2,000. The same applies to the National Gallery of British Art. We are experimenting, and the Department never tackles the question of lighting without taking the advice of the committee that advises the Government Departments. We are making experiments all the time in regard to art galleries and museums. I have just had a note sent me that the Bethlem Hospital Bill will come before the House soon after Easter, and I understand that I am to introduce it and not the county council so my hon. Friend will be able to sit on my head.
With regard to the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Edmonton (Mr. Broad), I informed the House on 13th March that 1,568 men in 20 depots have been taken on in our own employ, and on 4th April over 60 painters and 20 labourers who are employed on measured work will also be taken into direct employment. It is a very difficult matter when you take over men of all ages, but, after a good deal of negotiation with those who represent the workmen, we have come to an agreement in regard to their conditions which is satisfactory both to us and to them. Although I am a very firm believer in doing work by direct labour, I should not have asked that this should be done without the very fullest inquiry. We have come to the conclusion that, if we do not save money, we shall at least carry the work through as efficiently and as cheaply as it is done at present, and, in addition, shall be able to give the workmen the benefit of the holidays and other things that workmen employed by the State get. We shall save the percentage of money that has been paid to contractors, and we think it is certain that the change will not cost the State anything.
I have also come to an agreement with the unions concerned in regard to disputes. I believe it is the first agreement of its kind, and I believe, if both sides carry it out in the spirit in which we came to the agreement, stoppages of any kind wall be obviated, and I think that is something gained. In Edinburgh the numbers are much less. There are only about 100 men concerned. I did not attempt to carry this out all over the country. It seemed to me it would be better if we had an experiment here at the centre and at Edinburgh. If at the end of a year or two it goes along as we trust it will, I hope that the experiment will be made permanent and that the number of men will be considerably increased.
Question put, and agreed to.
Houses of Parliament Buildings
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a sum, not exceeding £78,430, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1932, for Expenditure in respect of Houses of Parliament Buildings."—[NOTE: £38,000 has been voted on account.]
I want to raise a point about which many Members are very much concerned at the present time. They want to know whether, when a large sum of money is being spent on the exterior stonework of this building, anything whatever is being spent on improving the antiquated system of ventilation from which we are all suffering. The sickness rate, and even the death rate, among Members of Parliament has been very high in the past few months. The sickness rate has been especially high, and I think all of us feel—I do not know whether the system is getting worse—that when we come into this House we are coming into a building where no fresh air seems to enter at all. I understand that the system, which was experimental when first put in, is now admitted by every kind of expert to be antiquated. The air comes up through the gratings on the floor and dusts our boots before it gets to our nostrils, and there is no other fresh air coming in anywhere. We only have the windows at the top open in the heat of summer, and we have nothing to breathe except the air which comes through the filthy carpet. It is really disgusting when you think that the air we have to breathe comes welling up through these gratings. I am told that the air is supposed to be purified and washed before it gets to us, but, even if that were wholly scientific and wholly true, it would be contaminated by the dust of the streets which is presumably upon our boots.
The difficulty is that the cleaning of the air is not effectively done. Everyone knows that when we come here in the early afternoon we often get fumes which are drawn into this Chamber. I understand, though goodness knows why, the air is drawn from the surface of the Thames and then washed, and pumped through to us. It is possible to tell when a tug is passing along the Thames, and dips its funnels to go under the bridge, for we get the heavy smoke from it, and, obviously, other impurities as well. This ventilation system was put in before we had so many petrol fumes on the Thames. Now we have the fumes resting on the water and they are drawn into the House, and presumably contain carbon monoxide as well. The atmosphere is getting steadily worse, and something should be done. It used to be said that, at any rate, Members who had been in the House for some time continued to be Members over a long period. There may be some mummifying effects upon us, but that is hardly what we want for legislators. The same thing applies, though not quite to the same extent, in the corridors. Everyone knows that when we are having a number of Divisions, the air in the Lobbies simply becomes unspeakable, and there are hardly any of the windows open.
I do suggest to the First Commissioner that what we want is the modernising of this system of ventilation. We have large sums of money being spent in works of alteration and for maintenance, amounting to £90,000. Could not some part of that be earmarked for the modernising of the ventilating system, and, if not, could not the First Commissioner introduce a supplementary Estimate for the purpose? When we are dealing with the Zoo, we find that it provides even for the monkey houses sunray lamps which have the most marvellous effects on the inhabitants of the cages. I do not see why we should not have something approaching ultra violet lamps, which would have the revivifying effects of modern science. This is really a plea that we should use the inventions of modern science in order to bring up-to-date the House where most of us have to spend a large part of our working life. We in the House, who are conscientious, spend from a quarter to three until 11 o'clock at night in this atmosphere. Those of us who are on Committees are here from 11 in the morning until 11 at night, and we never go away without a headache. I suggest that uncomfortable as the House is from every point of view, and utterly unsuitable for a work-place, when a supplementary Estimate is being brought in to tittivate the outside stonework, we should do something to modernise the inside of the building and get a House of Commons in which it is possible to do one's work without being under par the whole time.
I should like to call the attention of the Committee to one or two points, and to ask whether the First Commissioner of Works has come to any conclusion with regard to a small matter which I put to him a few weeks ago, namely, the placing of annunciators in the Tea Room and the Newspaper Room for the convenience of Members in all parts of the House. There are many Members who use both these rooms, and it is important that there should be annunciators there, as in other parts of the building. At the present time, it is impossible to tell whether the right hon. Gentleman is speaking, so that one may go in and listen to what he has to say. I hope he will be able to announce that he has come to the conclusion that it would be a wise thing to spend the small sum necessary for this purpose.
I notice a considerable sum is to be used for the restoration of the stonework of this building this year, namely, £50,000 instead of £30,000. I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the work is proceeding to his complete satisfaction, and whether he is satisfied that the results expected are being produced. Is he sure that there is going to be available sufficient supply of the right kind of stone? Some question has been raised in the past about that. What arrangements are in existence at present for the sale of the old stone? I know that many hon. Members have purchased portions of the stone taken down, and some of it has been sold to the public and various methods have been adopted. Can he tell us what those methods are, and whether any satisfactory results of a financial nature have accrued for the benefit of the Exchequer? There is only one other point with which I want to deal. It is a matter which I raised some months ago. Is there included in this sum for maintenance and repairs—and if not whether he will include in it a sufficient sum—to enable an improvement to be made in the appearance of this House? Hon. Members are well aware of the results obtained in Mr. Speaker's House and other parts of the building by removing the varnish on the old woodwork. The suggestion has been made that this House would be enormously improved in appearance if a similar treatment were applied here.
I understand that the matter has been submitted to the Fine Arts Commission. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will be able to say whether any report has come in, and, if so, whether he intends to take any action upon it? I should think that it would be worth while making this House really worthy of the Mother of Parliaments. I know that certain suggestions have been made, and that there are objections. Hon. Members sitting in the back rows leaning their heads against the woodwork might have the effect, possibly, of not adding to the beauty of the appearance of the place. I should have thought that that was a matter that could be got over in some way. I submit that this is a matter of real importance to the appearance of the House. I hope that it is going to be treated seriously. I realise that the question of the artistic appearance of the House as a whole arises if the varnish were removed, and it is because of that that the opinion of the best body in this country has been asked. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to give us, if he can, the result of the inquiry and the action he proposes to take thereon.
The hon. Member for Middlesbrough, East (Miss Wilkinson) seems to think that conditions in this Chamber are very bad. That is always a very difficult question to decide, but I would point out that it will not be disputed that Mr. Speaker spends more time in this Chamber than most other Members of the House. I think it is the fact, if hon. Members will look back at the records, that the Speakers of the House have enjoyed exceptionally good health and something above the average of longevity. Therefore, I can only hope that when the hon. Lady comes to preside over our deliberations, her health will improve and that she will lose her headaches.
The point I want to address to the right hon. Gentleman has regard to the money put down for the exterior of the building. It is to be found in Class 7, Vote 2, Sub-head B. I understand that this work is rendered necessary not by any defect in the original structure, nor on account of its age, but owing to the effect of London air upon the particular stone used. I do not know to what extent the right hon. Gentleman has authority for stating that the stone which is now being used will withstand the effect of that air better than did the old stone. It is obviously of very great importance, because if there is a doubt, as little new work as possible should be done until the time has passed to give us the benefit of experience. On the other hand, if there is really good evidence that the stone which is now being used is much superior for its purpose than the old stone, it would undoubtedly be economical to do the work more thoroughly now and to cut away more doubtful work than would be the case if it were somewhat in the nature of an experiment. It would be interesting if the right hon. Gentleman could tell us something as to the grounds he has for believing that the new stone will prove superior to the old for this purpose. The work is expensive; it has been going on now for a considerable time.
I should like to put four specific questions to the right hon. Gentleman, which, I think, he should be able to answer in this Debate. First, when did the work start? Secondly, when does he anticipate that it is likely to be completed? Thirdly, what amount has already been spent upon the work? Fourthly, what further sums does he anticipate will be needed to complete it? I think that many Members will be surprised, if the right hon. Gentleman can give us those figures, to see how very large is the total sum. No doubt the right hon. Gentleman takes the best advice that he can get in this matter, because the advice normally available in his Department for architectural matters will, obviously, not be sufficient in an extremely technical matter like the question of the stability of the stone and of the extent to which it is necessary to disturb the existing work. I suppose that we are all agreed that on account of its historic interest, its beauty as a building, and the unique nature of the site, it is desirable that all possible care should be taken to preserve the building in the best possible condition. At the same time, the sums at issue are very large sums, and I think that the Committee are entitled to the information which I have ventured to ask the right hon. Gentleman to give us now.
As one of the oldest Members of the House I cannot refrain from offering a few comments upon the Debate which has taken place upon the Houses of Parliament buildings. The Committee have been addressed by three of the younger Members of the House, and I gather from the speech of the hon. Lady the Member for East Middlesbrough (Miss Wilkinson) that she thinks that this place is very unhealthy. I have spent nearly a quarter of a century here, off and on, breathing a good deal of the bad air which she described, and I cannot help thinking that the present generation is a little more delicate than was our generation, when it is said that they rarely ever go home from this place without a headache. I still go home nightly, and it is a rare occurrence if my head happens to ache. I doubt very much whether the pursuing of this question of ventilation much further, is going to do any good. Ever since I have been here the question of ventilation has been discussed in the House of Commons. Practically every session some Member gets up, perhaps a young Member not yet inured to the hardships, and complains that the ventilation is not what it ought to be. One thing which I would have expected the hon. Lady to have said to-night was that the ventilation might have been so devised that it made our feet cold and our heads hot, the very reverse of what a deliberative chamber should be.
I notice that the hon. Lady said nothing at all about the cost of changing the ventilation. We have spent the afternoon talking about economy. Hon. Members above the Gangway have been exceedingly keen in pressing for economy, and I suggest that in a matter of our own comfort we really ought to economise. I hope that the Government are not going to launch out upon any experiments in ventilation which involve the spending of money. My hon. Friend the Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander) wants more money to be expended in the tea room. He wants an annunciator to be installed. We all like comfort. Nobody loves comfort more than I do, but at a time when we are all talking economy, when economy is preached from the Treasury Bench and the Front Opposition Bench, this is not the moment on the Estimates to consider how we can spend money but how we can save it. Instead of saying to the Ministers that they are asking for too much money, hon. Members are apt to come forward with all sorts of suggestions for more expense. My hon. Friend wants more comfort while he is at tea. He wants to be able to have his meal in the tea room and still know what is going on in the House.
Other hon. Members desire it as well as myself.
I agree that an annunciator would be an advantage to a good many hon. Members, but in a time of financial stress these personal inconveniences are exactly the things that we ought to do without. There was a great protest about the payment of railway fares. I did not join in that protest, because I thought that that was a necessary and proper expenditure, but I join in any protest against the expenditure of money merely for making Members of this House a little more comfortable at a time of financial stress.
It is not a question of making Members more comfortable, but making them more efficient. Surely efficiency is the wisest kind of economy.
If I thought that the hon. Lady's scheme would make us more efficient, I might take a different view. One generally finds that the present generation thinks that the past generation was unhealthy in its customs. We also have been young, and now that we are old it is a proof that we are not particularly unhealthy. Therefore, I suggest that these are matters which might wait until the country is more prosperous. My hon. Friend the Member for East Wolverhampton suggested that the colour of the woodwork is not all that it might be, that it has varnish upon it, and if the varnish were removed the woodwork would look much better. I agree, but what is it going to cost?
£700.
My hon. Friend did not say what the cost would be when he was speaking. Now he says that it will cost £700. If the work is to be properly done and the whole of the woodwork is to be scraped, the cost would be more like £7,000 than £700. [ Interruption. ] My hon. Friend is not going to do all the woodwork, but he is going to make a contrast between the Chamber and the rest of the House. I am sure that that is not desirable. This is not the time for expenditure of that kind. We can well wait until we are more prosperous and have more money.
Would it not take a few off the Unemployment Exchange?
It would not take many, if any, from the ranks of the unemployed. I could not refrain from making these comments and entering my protest. It is becoming very prevalent when we are considering Estimates for hon. Members to complain that the Estimate does not contain certain items of expenditure. This is an encouragement to Ministers to go on spending. That has already been done in the Department.
Is it not the declared policy of the Liberal party in this House to spend money in order to give employment?
I was expressing my own opinion, which has not been made for me by any party. The House has been asked to economise, and economy consists in not taking from the taxpayer money for schemes which can wait. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury has explained that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is the guardian of the public purse.
I think we are covering too wide a field in the Debate. What we ought to discuss is the expenditure asked for, not what hon. Members are asking for.
I was pointing out that the Department ask for the expenditure that is desirable and that the House comes in afterwards and tells the Ministers, or ought to tell the Ministers, that they have got perhaps too much from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The House ought to check the Ministers, but instead of doing so we get such speeches as have been delivered to-night where Members constantly ask for more expenditure. I am not sure whether the question in regard to stonework was wholly influenced by the consideration of expense. Generally speaking, I do protest against these repeated requests for expenditure.
In spite of the speech of the right hon. Gentleman opposite I want to reinforce the plea put forward by the hon. Member for East Middlesbrough (Miss Wilkinson). As one of the younger Members I refuse to subscribe to the idea that what was good enough for the past generation is good enough for the present generation. I know that this matter has been raised on many occasions. I raised it myself when I first came to the House, and I think that the answers that have been given in the past were most unsatisfactory. The answer usually has been that the experts employed by the Department say that it is the best possible system of ventilation; and the argument put forward in support of that theory was that those people who are continually in the House, the attendants in the galleries and so on, have very good health and are very seldom away on account of illness. I suggest that that argument is fallacious. People can get acclimatised to any atmosphere. It is notorious that those who work on sewage farms have very good health. But that does not mean that those who attend here as Members ordinarily do will find the atmosphere a healthy one.
It is an undoubted fact that the majority of Members complain bitterly of the atmosphere in which they have to live. It is no consolation to be told that the experts pronounce the ventilation system to be excellent, when Members are convinced that their health is suffering as a consequence of that system. It is not only in this Chamber where the atmosphere appears to me to be so enervating, but it is in all the precincts of the House. The right hon. Gentleman knows that I have been discussing the matter with many hon. Members during the last day or two, and there is an almost unanimous feeling among Members, at any rate on this side of the House, that something ought to be done about it. The complaint is not that the atmosphere is too hot, or too cold, or that people catch colds, but that the atmosphere in the House is so heavy, so dead, so devitalising that most people suffer from headaches and find it almost impossible to concentrate on their work; and that it robs Members of their vitality. I can speak for myself, and I think that almost everybody feels as I do, that when one has been in the precincts of the House for a few hours one's energy seems to disappear.
The hon. Member must not put down everything that we suffer from to the ventilation of the House. We have long and uncertain hours, and we are occupied with subjects which destroy one's peace of mind.
I quite agree; and that is why I am asking the right hon. Gentleman, in order to satisfy hon. Members and remove their fears, to have an inquiry into this matter by independent experts who may consider it in the light of the best modern practice. There are two things which might have a considerable effect on the ventilation in the Chamber. At the moment the air comes from below, it comes from the level of the Thames. I have been a member of the Main Drainage Committee of the London County Council for a number of years and I know that the Thames, particularly in summer, is nothing more than an open sewer, and that is naturally not conducive to good health. I understand that the experiment was once tried of bringing in the air from above, but was abandoned as a failure. I cannot understand why that should be so; because in all modem ventilation systems the air is brought in from above, and if we could do this it might have a considerable effect in improving the atmosphere of the Chamber. The other suggestion is this—it has been tried with success in some hospitals—to have an apparatus which produces small quantities of ozone, which sweetens and enlivens the air to a remarkable extent.
It would be a good thing if we could get this atmosphere transformed into a "nipping and an eager air" in which to do our work. We do not want this in order to add to the comfort and convenience of Members. We think it will enable us the better to do our duty as Members of Parliament, and that as long as the atmosphere remains as it is the work of the House will be seriously handicapped. Therefore, I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will not agree, if sufficient evidence is forthcoming from hon. Members of their desire for an inquiry into this matter by an independent expert committee—and almost every hon. Member on this side has expressed such a desire in writing—he will give his sympathetic consideration to such a suggestion?
I am sure that members of the Government will welcome the speech of the hon. Member for Lambeth North (Mr. Strauss). He has provided them with a fresh excuse for their failures during the last two years. I thought they had been due to world causes, but now, apparently, they are to be placed to the devitalising air in which they have to work. I can assure hon. Members opposite that this enervating and devitalising effect is not very apparent on this side of the House. Hon. Members opposite have complained of a feeling of lassitude and headaches. We, on the contrary, are conducting our work with an efficiency which is the admiration of the country. I have not left the House with a headache except when I have had to listen to the tedious speeches which the atmosphere produces from hon. Members opposite.
10.0 p.m.
I share the view of the right hon. Member for Camborne (Mr. Leif Jones). This discussion should be the occasion for suggesting methods of economy not for fresh expenditure, but hon. Members opposite care nothing for the present state of the country. Another burden on industry leaves them cold. But I am a little surprised that the right hon. Gentleman for Camborne who has spoken so eloquently in favour of economy after dinner should have voted against economy before dinner. I have some sympathy with the hon. Member for Wolverhampton East (Mr. Mander) who is at any rate consistent, because the Liberal policy is to spend money on everything, whether it is ventilation, cleaning the walls of this House, or whitewashing, the orthodox Liberal policy is to spend money and I am sorry that the right hon. Member for Camborne should have departed from the orthodox Liberal policy.
The hon. Member forgets the choice. I have to choose between the extravagance of the Government and the extravagance of hon. Members above the Gangway and I am bound to say that I prefer the policy of the Government.
I quite realise that the right hon. Gentleman prefers the other side of the House, but it is remarkable that two distinguished Members of the Liberal party should take diametrically opposite views on this question of policy. I should like some information on the expenditure which we are asked to sanction. Why has the expenditure for maintenance and repairs jumped up by such a considerable amount as £22,000? The stone work is a separate item, but still the actual maintenance and repairs expenditure has gone up from £19,000 to about £32,000. Then there is "urgent and unforeseen works" which we are asked to sanction. I did not know that anything could be urgent in this House, matters drag on so much, and certainly one gets no suggestion of speed or of lightning activity from the benches opposite. It will be interesting to know the urgent and unforeseen works which the right hon. Gentleman has to suggest.
I am sorry that I am not an expert on the vexed question of ventilation. I get a headache sometimes when I am here and sometimes when I am away, and it is generally due to having eaten something which I ought not to have had. I do not understand the criticisms in regard to the atmosphere of the House. I have read most of the reports, they all disagree with one another, and the experts that I have consulted all contradict each other. A Committee was appointed quite recently on the subject, and it may interest hon. Members to know that in their view:
"Such defects as exist in the ventilation are attributable to the methods of distributing the air current and not to the quality of the air admitted which is both chemically and bacteriologically pure."
The hon. Member for East Middlesbrough (Miss Wilkinson) tells me that I am breathing poison all the time I sit on this bench, because the air is coming up through the Floor over my dirty boots. Experts who have examined it tell me that it is pure.
May I ask whether the examination was made when the House was sitting?
All I know is that this Committee reported in 1905. In 1923, another Committee sat and made certain recommendations, and the important part of these has been carried out. Now all the amateur experts say that it is worse than ever. The question is one for the House of Commons to decide, and you could carry out further works suggested at a cost of £5,000. But the difficulty the Government is in is that people are not agreed that when we have spent that sum, we shall have done what hon. Members think is right. The argument is that the air coming from underneath is bad because it comes from the river; but when we carried out an elaborate test of bringing it in from the top it nearly killed us. I would remind hon. Members that the population inside this House is never constant. Now and again the place is crammed full, and the atmosphere gets very bad. I do not care what system of ventilation you have, it would be bad in those conditions. I think that those Members who are signing this appeal had better produce some evidence that the atmosphere is generally detrimental. No two people agree about it. To the Members who are interested I am prepared to say, as I said about another matter, to a number of Scottish Members, "I have volumes about it here," and I handed them a great pile of documents, and I never heard any more about it. I do not want to spend money unnecessarily; but if it can be proved that the health of hon. Members really is in danger by lack of proper ventilation the Department, if it is instructed to do so, will be only too glad to take more advice—they have taken a lot already—to see if they can get the experts to agree.
Hon. Members have asked why we are spending so much money on the outside of the Houses of Parliament. They seem to forget that the building is falling down, and that the House of Commons is obliged to vote the money for its repair. The work of repair started two years ago, after a good deal of preliminary investigation, and it was started, not because people were anxious to find jobs for men, but because great chunks of the stonework were falling, and are falling now, and must be replaced. We dare not leave it as it is, and we had to take it in hand in the fashion in which it is now being taken in hand. We expect the job will take nine or 10 years, and it will be seven or eight years from now before it is finished. We are unable to give a complete estimate of the cost, but we are quite sure that the original estimate of £1,000,000 was too heavy, because in the two years we have spent only £60,000, and at that rate we are not likely to spend the amount originally estimated. I have also been asked about the sale of the stonework. We commenced to sell the stonework because hon. Members and others wished to buy small pieces to keep in memory of this building, and we put some up to auction. The prices we then obtained have more or less fixed the prices that are charged now. Any hon. Members who wish to buy can apply to Mr. Wilson, the Clerk of Works. You will see an appropriation-in-aid in this Vote, and in it the sum of about £650, which means that the bulk of that has come from the sale of the stone.
In regard to the annunciator, I have consulted the Serjeant-at-Arms, who, in this matter, I understand, acts for the Speaker, and we have agreed that it should be put up. The £70 or £80 will come on to my Vote, and the £20 a year goes on to the Vote of the Serjeant-at-Arms. It is very difficult in this House to know just exactly where responsibility lies in these matters. The answer to the question about the panels, is that the Fine Arts Commission have viewed the place, and that I am expecting their report very shortly. I have no doubt that that report will be that we should leave things as they are, but I do not know. Anyhow, we must wait for the report before we give a decision.
Will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that nothing will be done without the House being consulted?
Of course. We should not attempt to deal with the panelling of the House without coming to the House about it first. As for the other question about repairs, the bulk of them are due to the fact that we have to look after the drainage of the walk along the Terrace. It is really urgent and necessary.
I should like the right hon. Gentleman to give me a little advice before he finally sits down. I think he knows how difficult it is for a back bencher to unburden himself of words of wisdom as he would like, and to give the House the benefit of the great thoughts that occur to him. How strange it is that, when a back bencher is promoted to the Front Bench and has a despatch box in front of him, he immediately assumes an air of confidence and assurance, and he can give forth his ideas with much more self-reliance than he could when he sat on the back bench. That is well known in this Chamber. There have been tongue-tied Members who, when suddenly promoted to the Front Bench, began to give out their ideas with fluency, potency and self-assurance. Why should the House be deprived of the asset that each Front Bench possesses in the shape of that despatch box? I, therefore, want to make this suggestion to the right hon. Gentleman, and I think it is one that he, knowing what fluency means, will appreciate. Why should we not have, on each bench of this Chamber, a rostrum? I will demonstrate that the cost is immaterial, compared with the advantages which would accrue. A rostrum could be put up at the end of each bench, and each Member who wanted to speak would advance from his position, where he now feels indeterminate and unassured, to the rostrum, and have his papers laid out before him just as they are on the despatch box before the right hon. Gentleman. There, in an atmosphere of assurance and knowledge, he could give forth his ideas in a manner which otherwise he would be unable to do.
How does the hon. and gallant Member propose to stop Members when once they have got going?
I know that will be quite safe in the hands of Mr. Dunnico, and I do not pretend to offer him any suggestions. I want to ensure that such Members as my hon. Friend and myself will be able to give the benefit of our intimate experience to the House, and thereby contribute to the value of our discussions. If my suggestion is carried out, it will undoubtedly do something to give self-confidence to back benchers. I speak as one who would welcome this concession if the right hon. Gentleman could see his way to make it.
I have no power to do anything of the kind, and, speaking for myself, I had very much more confidence when I spoke from the back benches where the hon. and gallant Member now sits, than I have now when I am speaking from the Front Bench.
There is one more point. It has occurred to me, in view of complaints which I have received from friends of hon. Members who visit the House of Commons, that something ought to be done in regard to the provision of seats on the Terrace. The Terrace seats are very draughty, especially when the wind is blowing up the river, and many friends who have visited the House to be shown the amenities of the House have gone away suffering from chills entirely due to the seats provided by the Office of Works. Could not little air cushions or something of that kind be provided which would ensure that visitors to the House would have pleasant memories of their visit instead of suffering from chills?
Question put, and agreed to.
Labour and Health Buildings, Great Britain
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a sum, not exceeding £478,000, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1932, for Expenditure in respect of Employment Exchange and Insurance Buildings, Great Britain (including Ministries of Labour and Health and the Department of Health for Scotland)."—[NOTE: £238,000 has been voted on account.]
I desire to refer to the delay in building some of the Employment Exchanges. That delay has been a very long one, and I should like some assurance that this work is going to be proceeded with at once, especially in Sunderland. We have at present several buildings there, but we need one new and larger building, and yet year after year passes without the building being started and without the site even having been settled. I have been informed—I do not know whether it is correct or not—that the proposed plans for an Exchange in Sunderland are inadequate to meet local needs. I have been told that they provide for 4 per cent. of unemployment. I wish I could believe that, within a year or so, we would have only 4 per cent. unemployment. I have also heard that these plans provide little more accommodation for counter work than that now existing. I cannot see why the Office of Works and the Ministry of Labour should hesitate to build an Exchange sufficiently large for general purposes, because the work of the Exchanges is likely to increase in regard to finding of jobs for new classes of workers. I hope that the small plans now proposed will be enlarged. I therefore ask the right hon. Gentleman whether there is any chance of the building being proceeded with speedily, and whether it is the case that the plans provide for a building but little larger than the present inconvenient premises.
We have here something like 70 new alterations to Employment Exchanges which are to cost a vast sum of money, and I would like the right hon. Gentleman to tell me whether this is the official solution of the Government for the unemployment question. There is an item on page 16 for £25,000, which indicates an unhappy situation in this district, which is not one about which we can talk freely.
Where is it?
Item number 5—Poplar, a very unhappy place. May I ask why there has been this great increase, because I understood that there was to be no unemployment in Poplar under certain conditions. Another unhappy place is Nelson, for which there is an estimate of £7,960 for works services, £140 for furniture, and £10 for removal. I do not understand why this expenditure should be necessary, having regard to certain things that happened before. Then there is an expenditure of £64,000 for various Glasgow centres. It is unfortunate that all these big increases seem to be in places like Glasgow, Nelson and Poplar. Why is that so, in view of the fact that we were given to understand that under certain conditions, which they carried out, they would have no unemployment?
I notice that a sum of money is provided for a new Exchange in my constituency of Oxford. When I put a question to the right hon. Gentleman last year, he explained that it was desirable to build a new Exchange, and I would like to ask him why none of the money that was voted last year has been spent, and why the whole sum has to be re-voted. We have a certain amount of unemployment in the building trade in Oxford. The right hon. Gentleman told me that the site had been obtained, and I wondered what has caused the delay in this work.
On the question of the Sunderland Employment Exchange, I am sorry to have to inform my hon. Friend that there is nothing in this Vote for Sunderland. Progress there has had to be stopped. Owing to the demands for economy which has come from all quarters of the House, we have had to confine our efforts to those places where the need was most urgent, and we did not consider Sunderland to be one of them. Four per cent. unemployment is the standard which is provided for, but there are fluctuations according to districts. We might go up to 5 per cent. in a certain place, and provide for a little lower rate of unemployment somewhere else; but I may say, in reply to the gibes of hon. Members in various parts of the House, that if our party continue in office, as we know we shall, we shall not dream of making provision for the present abnormal unemployment throughout the country, but continue to make temporary accommodation such as we are now providing.
As to Nelson, Poplar and Glasgow, for the last half-century, to my certain knowledge, they have been places where a considerable proportion of the population have been unemployed or casually employed. In Poplar we are transferring the Employment Exchange from an inconvenient place to premises which are better suited to the purpose, and even there we are making provision for an unemployment rate of only 5 per cent. The same observations apply to Glasgow, to Nelson and all the other areas in the list. With regard to Oxford, the delay there has been caused through difficulty in getting the site. I do not think I could ever have said we had the site. I think I must have said that we were negotiating for it. It has been extremely difficult to get a site, but I believe that question has been settled now, and I think the work will go forward.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say what site it is?
I could not say offhand, but I will communicate with the hon. and gallant Member and let him know.
I wish to thank the right hon. Gentleman for the very kind answer he has given to me, and to say that the Estimate only bears out what I have always thought was the policy of his party, and that is to substitute Employment Exchanges for work.
Question put, and agreed to.
Royal Parks and Pleasure Gardens
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a sum, not exceeding £147,670, he granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1932, for Expenditure in respect of Royal Parks and Pleasure Gardens."—[NOTE: £73,000 has been voted on account.]
I think this is the first opportunity which the Committee has had of raising the whole question of the right hon. Gentleman's general attitude and activities with regard to the central parks of London. That being so, I hope the First Commissioner of Works will give us a little more information with regard to this Vote. The right hon. Gentleman makes speeches outside this House with regard to what he is doing in the parks, but he has never given a detailed account of his policy inside this House. There was a very heavy Supplementary Vote for the Royal parks. The amount required is £220,000, compared with £208,000 last year. Consequently, we are being asked to vote £12,000 more than was voted for the corresponding period of last year. The right hon. Gentleman is asking for money to erect a new refreshment pavilion at Kensington Gardens, and I would like to know something more about that proposal. Is that to be a new building and is the old pavilion to be pulled down or is the £12,000 intended for making additions to the old building?
I should like the right hon. Gentleman to tell the Committee what his policy is with regard to donations. Is he prepared to accept money from all and sundry for all sorts of purposes, and does he not consider himself responsible for the way in which he acts with regard to those donations? I can imagine people making a very big offer to the right hon. Gentleman, and this might induce him to agree to an amenity which other people would think was an abnormality. I hope the First Commissioner will be very careful with people who offer gifts in this kind of way, and let him remember that people have been frightened of the Greeks who bring them gifts. I hope the right hon. Gentleman took some trouble during the bathing season to make inquiries from people who use the Serpentine as to whether they were satisfied with the care taken of their clothes while they were bathing. I have heard some sad cases of people coming out of the water and finding themselves in considerable difficulty. I hope this matter will be attended to during the coming summer, if we have one.
He takes, again, in Appropriations-in-Aid an increasing sum for "Tennis Courts, Putting Greens, etc." I am anxious to know what comes under the "etc." I have a question on the Order Paper, and, if the right hon. Gentleman can anticipate it, so much the better, as to what his arrangements are going to be with regard to bowling greens in Hyde Park. There again many people want to know whether these bowling greens are going to be thrown open to the public, or whether they are being reserved for certain bowling clubs, which I think, on the whole, would be undesirable, because it is not good that even so impartial a gentleman as the Minister should have the right of disposing of the entire amenities of that part of the Park to any selected group of clubs.
Again, the right hon. Gentleman takes, under Appropriations-in-Aid, the licences for the sale of newspapers and refreshments. With regard to refreshments, going back to what I said just now about his proposed works in Kensington Gardens, I hope that, if there is going to be some modernisation of refreshment buildings, there will also be some modernisation of the refreshments provided. It is a notorious fact that whoever it is that has the right to purvey refreshments in the parks of London does not do it frightfully well. That is just about as mildly as I can put it. Will the right hon. Gentleman see that, if there are going to be new pavilions for providing foodstuffs, the quality of those foodstuffs is far better than anything that the London public has hitherto been offered? It may be that the right hon. Gentleman is under some long-term contract; I do not know; perhaps he can tell us; but, if he is not, I do hope that he will spare no effort, so long as we have to have refreshment pavilions in the parks at all, to get the best and most wholesome food served in the best and most wholesome manner. Interruption. ] That it should be British food is taken for granted. Very large numbers of people, not only residents of London, but foreigners and people who come from the country, would like, on fine days, to take their meals in the open air, but they simply do not do it because they know that they will be overcharged for extraordinarily poor food. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will take that matter into his most earnest consideration.
I saw in the paper to-day that we are to be treated to deck chairs in Hyde Park. Is that true? I do not always believe what I see in the evening papers, but this is rather a startling innovation. [ Interruption. ] It is all very well for hon. Members to smile, but it is an innovation because it is something new, and, judging from the colour of the tents last year, it certainly will be startling if it is anything on the same lines. I would recommend the right hon. Gentleman, in quite a friendly way, not to be too quick about that sort of thing. Let him try out a few chairs; do not let us have Hyde Park flooded with 100,000 terribly coloured chairs. [ Interruption. ] My hon. Friend was expatiating about chairs on the Terrace, but chairs in Hyde Park have caused trouble before, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will be very careful how far he extends these new privileges.
On the whole question, I ask him to bear in mind that he may be going a little too far with regard to the treatment of the parks. After all, the English people are very long suffering. Some of the reforms that he might possibly like to see brought in are much more likely to be brought in successfully a few at a time instead of this enormous flood of novelties, so that every time one goes into the park one asks one's neighbour, "What has happened since I was last here?" That is not the way to do it, because there is a great body of opinion which does not want anything done to the parks at all. The ideal of the greatest possible enjoyment of the greatest number of people, which is presumably what is aimed at by Government in all times and in all forms, may very well be served by keeping the parks plain, without any form of amusement, so that people can take their pleasure therein and take the air without indulging in any violent form of exercise. The right hon. Gentleman will be the first to admit that, because he must have stacks of complaints as the result of his own activities. That being the case, if he wants to make these changes, I appeal to him to make them so gradually that the long suffering British public will not realise that they have ever taken place. Do not let him repeat the dose of starting innovations this year in increasing quantities. Let him see how far he can carry public opinion with him instead, as is more likely to be the case, of antagonising it from the very start.
I am glad again to have the pleasure of talking to the right hon. Gentleman on the question of the Royal Parks. The last time we discussed the Supplementary Estimate with regard to the parks one was rather restricted in regard to one's views. This time one has a more general outline in which to approach the right hon. Gentleman. In my view the Royal Parks are designed for three purposes, for children to play in, for young people to court in and for old people to rest in, and, if he takes that as his guiding line, he will not go very far wrong.
What does the hon. and gallant Gentleman mean by the word "young"?
That is a point that does not arise in this Debate. I might qualify the statement further by saying that, in the opinion of many of those who value the Royal Parks for the great assistance they provide for the well-being of our people, if we have attained peace, beauty and security in those parks, again we shall be assured that there is nothing much wrong with them. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will bear these things in mind. Let him divest himself of these youthful frivolities in the way of bathing beaches, Lido grounds and so on. Let him ask himself what is the view of the man in the street in regard to the parks. Let him say, "How can I best make the parks suitable and happy for the people as a whole?" If he looks at it from that point of view, he will provide happier playgrounds and happier rest grounds for the people of this great City.
Having made that little preliminary offset, I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman again what he proposes to do about the Botanic Gardens in Regent's Park. We have been fobbed off time after time on the question of what is going to happen. The lease falls in in April, 1932. The last question I put to him is still under consideration. On a question like that, it is impossible for the Office of Works not to have formed any conclusion by now, or they are singularly inefficient in regard to the job they have to carry out. The Botanic Gardens have been in existence for many years, and have provided a place where the students of the University of London and students from other parts of London may study botany. Here we are faced with the removal of this marvellously good thing, without any knowledge of what is going to be put in its place. I do not ask the right hon. Gentleman to continue the lease of the Botanic Gardens, but to continue its functions so that students who value botany and the study of flowers can be assured that there is still a place in London where they can study them and develop their knowledge. I would like a final answer to that question.
Then I should like to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on the wonderful work he has done in stopping road-hogging in the parks. He has done a tremendous lot to stop what has been a blight on the parks for many years past. I speak as one who knows something about it, because I have seen in my own house the mangled and bleeding bodies of three poor little children who have been run down on three occasions by these swine, these road hogs, who use the parks as a racing ground to try out new models. The right hon. Gentleman has done a great deal, but there is a great deal more to be done, and I want him to assure us that he will carry on during the night the good work he has done during the day. A great deal of that speeding goes on at night. I do not say it affects the children, because they are in bed, but there are invalids living round the park, on whose sleep their health depends, who are disturbed by the midnight revellers coming home between 11 and 12 o'clock with open exhausts, and there is no one to stop them. The right hon. Gentleman, in conjunction with the Home Secretary, has put a sergeant and two policemen to do the stopping and timing of these road hogs in Regent's Park. They have done good work, but while the two policemen are in plain clothes, the sergeant is in uniform, and who is there who will continue at 60 miles an hour when they see a policeman? They immediately stop.
Then the right hon. Gentleman sends out on Sunday morning a small car all brightly polished, as all police cars should be, with two brightly polished policemen inside. Everything is shiny, and they atop outside the outer circle in Regent's Park and view all the speed merchants with hawk-like eye. As soon as the sun shines on them, the wily road-hogger sees them about a mile away and goes past like a bleating lamb at three miles an hour. I have seen a taximan drive up as if hell was after him, and as soon as he came within sight of these policemen he drew up. There was a small boy considering whether he could cross the road or not, and the taximan in a fatherly manner motioned the small boy to proceed. If that highly-polished car and the highly-polished policeman had not been there, that taximan would have driven along at a rate of 35 to 40 miles an hour to the possible danger of the small boy, so that I might have seen four accidents to poor children who live in the vicinity of Regent's Park. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider the point that between dusk and halt-past nine there are no keepers to look after the traffic in Regent's Park. It may be a question of cost; as to that I do not know. Before the War the traffic through Regent's Park averaged about 3,000 to 4,000 vehicles daily, while to-day there are 20,000 daily, and yet the same number of keepers are looking after the track of Regent's Park as was the case before the War. That is absurd. We have these vehicles going at 20 or 30 times the rate of the old horse vehicles, and we have the same number of keepers trying to look after the track, the gates, the children, dogs and everything. It is impossible.
I come back to a question to which the right hon. Gentleman referred after I had raised it on the previous occasion and, unfortunately, I was not present during his reply to contradict him. I refer to the paddle-boat pond in Regent's Park. I. suggested on the last occasion that the charge for a boat was 6d. for seven minutes, and yet those boats were supposed to be provided for the poor children of the district. I consider that that is one of the most unfair and unjust charges that can be made upon a poor child. How can any poor child find 6d. for seven minutes? The right hon. Gentleman, as I read in the OFFICIAL REPORT, got out of it by saying that the charge was 4d. for half-an-hour. It is 4d. for half-an-hour for rowing boats, but 6d. for seven minutes for what they call the high-speed boat which goes about the same distance at the same speed. I say that it is absurd to provide a paddle-boat pond for the benefit of the poor children of the district and force them to beg in order to find the money to enjoy the pond. I hazard the suggestion that it might be possible to provide boats free on two mornings a week for poor children so that they could find enjoyment without being forced to beg for the money. Unfortunately it is the capitalistic tendencies of the right hon. Gentleman that have caused him to do this. He used to be a good proletarian and a bit of a revolutionary, but since he has got upon the Front Bench and before that dispatch box he has become a capitalist. He is causing boats to be let out upon this pond through a capitalist monopoly which charges what it likes. He says that it is in accordance with other councils' charges. In any case, whether it is in accordance with other charges or not, a non-capitalist Minister like the right hon. Gentleman should see that poor children obtain better chances than the rich children.
My hon. Friend referred to the question of money being given to the right hon. Gentleman for erecting, as he considers them, various buildings of beauty in the parks. I should like a decision upon that matter from the Government. Is it to be considered that any fund or gift made to the right hon. Gentleman or to the Government for the erection of any oddity in the parks one might see are to be erected without the House of Commons having any say in the matter? I do not say that some of the things erected might not be nice things, good and handsome buildings, and things of beauty, but who is to decide the matter? It should be this House, which, after all, represents the people who use the parks. It is our duty to see that anything which is erected in the parks is to the benefit and the amenities of the people as a whole. I should like the right hon. Gentleman to give an answer to this question. Are we to believe that any crank or any generous person who desires to have a Genesis or a Rima erected in a park can, by giving the amount required to pay for it, ensure, without this House having any say in the matter, that it shall be erected? That is against the whole of the democratic instincts of this House. We ought to have the final word. In regard to dogs, why should they not have their runs in the parks and their baths in the parks. If the right hon. Gentleman would put high railings round the beds of flowers there would be no necessity for putting the dogs on leads. It is said that every dog must have its run and must have its day. A park is supposed to be a place where a dog can have a run, but to-day the only place where a dog can have a run is the open road, where they run the risk of being knocked down by motor cars. The right hon. Gentleman has the most intense sympathy for dogs as well as human beings and, if the matter is put to him in a fair, reasonable and logical spirit, as I have put it, I am sure that he will do his best to put it right, if his Department allows it; but I have very grave suspicions.
11.0 p.m.
There is only one more point, and that is the question of the birds. My right hon. Friend has assured us again and again that the changes he was making in the islands in the parks would ensure that the birds would have better nesting and mating places than before. [ Laughter. ] I regret this hilarity on the part of hon. Members, because it shows that they are not giving that careful and sincere attention to my remarks that they ought to give. Our experience has not proved that the right hon. Gentleman is correct. When he did away with the cow parsnip on the islands, which is the natural mating ground where the birds can go for a mating season, he did a wrong to the feathered flocks in the various parks. If he will go with me to the parks, I will show him where he has made a mistake. I will point out to him the birds that are now looking for mating places. There seems to be some doubt in the minds of hon. Members as to the particular types of birds to which I am referring. If hon. Members will go with me to Regent's Park, I will show them the birds. I will show the right hon. Gentleman that the birds are not in suitable places for nesting and mating grounds. When I show him those grounds, I think he will agree with me and take some steps to undo the wrong that he has done.
I should like to know what progress has been made in regard to the provision of a bowling green in Regent's Park, and also whether seats with backs will be provided for the old people who frequent Primrose Hill. There are wooden seats there already but they have no backs. A little more light is also needed on Primrose Hill.
One item in this Vote refers to Kew Gardens and the construction of an annexe for pelargoniums. Of all the degraded form of vegetation that has ever been imported into this country, the pelargonium is one of the worst.
There is nothing in the Estimate about pelargoniums.
I agree—
If there is nothing in the Estimate there is no use in criticising it.
The next question is the Hampton Court vine and the sale of grapes. This is an ancient and historic vine. What has been happening in 1931? Is it due to the price of grapes that the appropriations-in-aid are so much lower? If, however, it is paying, I think we should be told. Then what is a "starter" and an "assistant starter"?
I wish I knew what a stopper was.
I see that one of the bailiffs in the Royal Parks had been reduced in salary. Is that because he has been unable to exterminate the grey squirrel? Which of these bailiffs have this matter in hand, because until the grey squirrel has been exterminated there will not be much chance for the ground squirrel, an English animal, whereas the other is an importation from America? May I also ask whether the park-keepers or park inspectors are responsible for the lack of carrion crows in the parks, an interesting bird which we do not want in too large numbers? Still I should like to know how it is that they have disappeared. I would like to know why grazing rents show a reduction. Is it because of the depreciation of Government property? Hon. Members will see that there is a depreciation in one or two different factors in the Appropriations-in-Aid, while others, such as vension fees, remain stationary. The vension fees always remain the same, round about £60. I would like to inquire into that, because when a Government figure remains stationary we find that there is something behind it. Is this an interesting perquisite? It may be for the general benefit of the taxpayers that some change should be made. I should be grateful if I could have a reply to these points, particularly in regard to the carrion crow.
As to the carrion crow, I fear it is impossible for me to give an answer. We have much more important business to do, and I will try and deal with the serious points that have been raised. The hon. and gallant Member for Gainsborough (Captain Crookshank) and the hon. and gallant Member for Ayr (Lieut.-Colonel Moore) raised the question of money subscribed by persons who might say to me: "Here is £50,000 for you to put up a building here." No money can be accepted without the consent of the Treasury and no building—I do not mean a shelter or a small thing of that kind—that anyone could take any objection to, would be considered by me without the House of Commons being properly informed in the matter. As to the Serpentine, I arranged for a question to be put to me on that so that the House might be made acquainted with what is being done, and no objection was, or has been, taken.
In the papers it was announced that the right hon. Gentleman was going to open a pavilion, the gift of Sir Louis Baron, and I can remember no question on that in the House.
Directly we had the offer of that, somebody was asked to put a question and the thing was discussed. There was a pavilion on that site, but it was destroyed by fire, and this House never voted the money for it. I asked Sir Louis Baron about another proposal which I had in my mind, and he said: "I would like to give something that would be permanent in memory of my father." For the cost of between £8,000 and £9,000 we have got a very handsome pavilion, just finished, in Regent's Park, on a site where previously there was a pavilion. No one can take objection to that, and I think the Committee should be very grateful to Sir Louis Baron for providing the money. I want to dispose of the idea that the First Commissioner of Works, whether he be myself or anybody else, can take money and spend it in the public parks without the House of Commons or the Treasury knowing anything about it. That is quite untrue. It cannot be done. All this wild talk about my wanting to do things without the House or the public knowing about them till they are done, is sheer moonshine.
With regard to the Kensington Gardens refreshment pavilion, there is a building of which everybody complains. Other people complain of service. We put a small amount in for expenditure this year, because we know we shall not be able even to consider complaints. We are quite certain that, if we have a proper up-to-date refreshment establishment in Kensington Gardens, we shall get a very good Appropriation-in-Aid.
On the general question of refreshments, the contracts ran out on 31st March this year, that is, to-day, and we have now an entirely new contractor who has taken over the refreshments for the whole of the Royal Parks. We sent out for tenders, for the whole or the part, and the firm that has got the contract—I cannot give the name for the moment—will supply all the Royal Parks, I am hopeful, in a more satisfactory manner. I am certain that it can be a very paying business for the firm, and also for the funds, because we shall get more money out of it.
In the catering contract, is there any restrictive covenant, and has the right hon Gentleman power to represent to the contractor that the service is not satisfactory?
Certainly, and we can also have something to say about the prices.
I am sorry about certain kinds of tents to which objection is taken. The question is nearly as bad as that of the ventilation of the House. The experts have disagreed with each other. I have been very considerably complimented on the orange-tinted building, but I am afraid that some disapprove. You cannot please everybody in this world, in the matter of art.
About bathers' clothing, many thousands of young men and boys, when bathing, put their clothes on the bank. I have preserved the rights of the bathers in the Serpentine by covering a portion of the bank in order to enable bathing to be done. If somebody gets into the wrong clothes, I am not to be held responsible for that. That happened during the old period, in the 100 years or so that people have been bathing there. If people care to pay their 3d., we take charge of their clothes. We have not had more than one or two complaints, and the number of cases prosecuted was very tiny indeed, considering the hundreds of thousands of people who went there to bathe. It testifies to the tact and discretion of Inspector Duncan and the men who serve under him, and to the good behaviour of the bathers.
With regard to the bowling green and the general public, it will be open to anybody and the prices will be just a little lower, not higher than the county council's. Of course, clubs will be allowed to play matches, as is done everywhere, and we are opening the bowling green on a Friday evening in May when, I hope, Members of the House of Commons will come and see a team representative of the House of Commons and I hope the other House also, play against a London team. Hon. Members for London constituencies may like to know also that at the opening of the Baron pavilion we are going to have a cricket match between London County Council schoolboys and the boys of Westminster School. I ask hon. Members not to worry about deck chairs. We have tried them in Regents Park and elsewhere and they have been a great success. I like to get a deck chair myself when I am in the park. As regards the Botanic Gardens, there is one thing quite definite and explicit. The late Government passed a Minute that when certain lettings within the Royal Parks came to an end, those portions let should come back into the parks concerned. We are not going back on that decision in any shape or form and the Botanic Gardens will thus become part of Regents Park. We shall preserve the ornamental waters and whatever is worth preserving there.
What about the glasshouses?
As the hon. Gentleman knows, a scheme for this sort of training has been in vogue at Kew, which I am told is infinitely better than anything carried on in the Botanical Gardens. I want the hon. Gentleman and his friends to understand that there is no question of going back on the decision of the late Government. We think that it was an excellent decision and before we say definitely how we shall use the buildings and what we shall do with the glasshouses I will undertake to answer a question, if I am still here, so that the House of Commons may know what it is proposed to do. The only other point I wish to mention is that I gave the right information about the boats. The charge for the boats to boys and girls is 4d. for half an hour, but if the children want electric boats, I am afraid they must pay for the electricity. If the House of Commons in a burst of generosity tells me to provide the boats and allow them to be free—first come, first served—I shall be glad enough to do so.
The right hon. Gentleman does not seem to appreciate my remarks. What I object to and what many people in London object to is, that this pond should be let out to a monopolistic concern who can charge these prices and gain profit on the letting of these boats at the rate of sixpence for seven minutes to poor children.
That is perfectly true, but I would do, if I were allowed, a lot of things without the intervention of a contractor. This business of the boats is something that I must put out to contract, and we have got the best contract possible in the circumstances. It is no use reproving me for being a Socialist and a capitalist at the same time; I cannot help that. With regard to the dogs, there are miles of open spaces for them to run in if people will only use their legs a little, and take the dogs to those places. As to the birds, I am sorry to disagree with the hon. and gallant Member, but he is quite wrong. The greatest expert on this question has complimented us on what we have done in Regent's Park, and I must leave it at that.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman one question about this? Since I last made a speech on this subject, I have been informed that I was wrong in assuming that the principal enemy of the birds in the parks are not the boys and the cats. I am told that the grey squirrels are responsible. Has the right hon. Gentleman dealt with that matter, because the squirrels have seriously decreased the bird population in the parks?
I have not any information, but I will send a note to the Noble Lord on the subject. I know that the grey squirrel is rather destructive, and if we can do anything with him, we will. With regard to the bowling green, we were promised money for a green in Regent's Park. That has failed, and if any one wishes to give us the necessary money we will be very glad to put a green down and, in addition, some tennis courts alongside, and a putting green. I will look into the seats and lighting at Primrose Hill again. With regard to the question of the hon. Member for Torquay, we think that the price that we shall get this year is about right. As to the speed limit, the hon. and gallant Member was so complimentary about it that I thought we were doing very well, and I think we are. We do not want be catch people; we only want to stop them.
Question put, and agreed to.
Resolutions to be reported To-morrow; Committee to sit again To-morrow.
Yarmouth Naval Hospital Bill [Lords]
Considered in Committee.
[Sir ROBERT YOUNG in the Chair.]
CLAUSE 1.—(Detention of certain persons of unsound mind in the Royal Naval Hospital at Great Yarmouth.)
I beg to move, in page 1, line 10, after the word "practitioners," to insert the words:
"and the certificate of one other medical practitioner not in the service of the Admiralty."
I do not want to be unduly suspicious as to whether the medical men in the service of the Admiralty do their work efficiently or not, but when it becomes a question of putting a man into an institution such as the Yarmouth Naval Hospital we require some stronger evidence than is furnished by the certificate of two doctors who are in the service of the Admiralty. As this is not a matter affecting the Naval service but is a question of the liberty of the subject we ask that the opinion of an additional medical practitioner who is not in the pay of the Admiralty shall be obtained.
I appreciate the motives which have prompted my hon. Friend to move this Amendment, and although I am not able to accept it I trust that when I have explained the position to him he will be prepared to withdraw it. As I said on Second Reading, there is no compulsion on anyone to enter the hospital; in fact, it is a privilege which those in the service have over and above other people. I am sure my hon. Friend does not want to cast any reflection on the staff of the hospital or on the members of the Royal Naval Medical Service. Even greater precautions are taken in the case of a person entering this hospital than if he is to go into a civil mental hospital. In the first place, the symptoms of mental affliction would be observed by the colleagues of the naval rating, or the officer, as the case may be, and it would be brought to the attention of the officer commanding the ship or the head of the establishment. The officer would then ask the surgeon to take the man into the sick bay for observation. If the surgeon believes that the man is mentally afflicted he cannot deal with the case out of hand. He will send the man for report to one of the naval hospitals, either Chatham, Devonport or Haslar, where he is again placed under observation. If they are of opinion that he is mentally afflicted the Admiralty will then, if there is any doubt, send down their consultant in mental diseases, who would be Sir Hubert Bond, a member of the Board of Control. If then there is no doubt, the man would be certified by two medical officers of the hospital and the whole set of reports, the dossier of information, is scrutinised by the Admiralty; they will have been sent to them for the man to be invalided out of the Service. In the meantime the relatives of the man are communicated with, and, presuming he is eligible for it by length of service, they can allow him to go into the Yarmouth Hospital, or intimate where they want to take him and transfer him to any other mental hospital. All those steps are taken before a man is certified, and therefore it will be seen that there is no need to lay down that three persons should certify. I think I have now shown quite clearly that a great deal of trouble is taken to see that no harm is done.
In view of the statement made by the Parliamentary Secretary, I beg to ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.
Clauses 2 ( Provisions as to detention orders ), 3 ( Reports as to the condition of patients and provisions as to their discharge ), 4 ( Absence on leave, escape and recapture ), 5 ( Voluntary patients ), 6 ( Deductions from pay or pension in certain cases ), 7 ( Expenses of Admiralty ), and 8 ( Application of s. 315 of the Lunacy Act, 1890; indemnity in respect of past actions and protection of persons putting this Act in force ) ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 9.—(Misstatement in certificates, etc.)
Motion made, and Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and negatived.
CLAUSE 10.—(Application to Scotland and Northern Ireland.)
Motion made, and Question, "That the consideration of Clause be postponed until after the new Clause has been disposed of," put, and agreed to.—[ Mr. Ammon. ]
NEW CLAUSE.—(Misstatements in certificates, etc.)
(1) Any person who makes a wilful misstatement of any material fact in any medical or other certificate or in any statement of bodily or mental condition under this Act shall be guilty of a misdemeanour.
(2) A prosecution for an offence under this section shall not be instituted except by the direction of the Attorney-General or the Director of Public Prosecutions.—[ Mr. Ammon. ]
Brought up, and read the First time.
I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
This new Clause contains the desired provisions of the Lunacy Act, 1890, which in the original Clause were only applied by reference.
Question put, and agreed to.
Clause added to the Bill.
CLAUSE 10.—(Application to Scotland and Northern Ireland.)
Amendments made: In page 8, line 37, at the end, insert the words:
"( d ) Sub-section (2) of Section nine of this Act shall not apply."
In page 9, line 17, at the end, insert the words:
"( d ) for any reference to the Attorney-General or to the Director of Public Prosecutions there shall be substituted a reference to the Attorney-General for Northern Ireland."—[ Mr. Ammon. ]
Question, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.
Clause 11 ( Short title ) ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Bill reported; as amended, considered; read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments.
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
It being after Half-past Eleven of the Clock, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned at Sixteen Minutes before Twelve o'Clock.