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Commons Chamber

Volume 250: debated on Wednesday 1 April 1931

House of Commons

Wednesday, April 1, 1931

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

Tramways and Light Railways

Return ordered,

"of Street and Road Tramways and Light Railways authorised by Act or Order, showing the amount of capital authorised, paid up, and expended; the length of line authorised and the length open for traffic, and number of cars owned at the 31st day of December, 1930, in respect of companies, and the end of the financial year 1930–31 in respect of local authorities; the gross receipts, working expenditure, net receipts and appropriations, the transactions in reserve funds, and traffic and operating statistics for the year ended on the foregoing dates, respectively (in continuation of Return to an Order of the House, dated the 9th day of April, 1930); also similar particulars relating to Trackless Trolley Undertakings."—[ Mr. Parkinson. ]

Oral Answers to Questions

Questions

China (Situation)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has received any report since his last statement on the conditions existing in China; and can he give particulars?

No material change in conditions has taken place since the reply given to my hon. Friend on 9th March.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Nanking Government are now exercising control over the greater part of China?

Slavery Convention

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will give the number and names of the countries which have not ratified the Slavery Convention?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given on Wednesday last to the hon. Member for Torquay (Mr. C. Williams).

Russia

Diplomatic Immunity

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many British subjects enjoy diplomatic immunity in territory controlled by the Soviet Government of Russia; and how do these numbers compare with January, 1930?

The answer to the first part of the hon. Member's question is 11 and to the second part nine.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the number of trade representatives, with their wives and families, who enjoy diplomatic immunity in this country, and what is the extent of the premises covered by the same privilege; and how do these particulars compare with January, 1930?

The answer to the first part of the question is two, namely, the head of the Soviet Trade Delegation in London and his deputy. Immunity attaches to the offices occupied by the Trade Delegation on the Fifth Floor, East Wing, Bush House, Aldwych, in accordance with the Temporary Commercial Agreement with the Soviet Government of the 16th of April, 1930. In January, 1930, there were no trade representatives in this country enjoying diplomatic immunity.

Does this immunity include the receipt of sealed post-bags, and, if so, is there any limit to the number of bags?

Wages

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will instruct the British Ambassador at Moscow to report on the new system of payment of wages by the Soviet Government in connection with the five-year plan whereby wages and rations will depend on the quantity and quality of the energy expended by each individual workman?

If the reports which have appeared in the Press on this subject are correct, His Majesty's Ambassador will report in the ordinary course of his duties. I see no reason therefore to send him special instructions.

Does the hon. Gentleman realise the importance of this decision by a great Socialist State—that work can only be carried on with a system of wage payment by results which has hitherto not been recognised by them?

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that piece-rates have been general in Soviet Russia in all industries for a long time?

And is he aware that in the mining industry in this country wages are only paid on results?

British Subjects

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will state by what authority public money is handed to a certain private organisation for the relief of distress among British citizens who refuse to return to this country from Soviet Russia; and what account is rendered of the expenditure of this money?

As the hon. Member was informed on 18th February and 24th March last, His Majesty's Government contribute £120 a month to aid the charitable work of the organisation mentioned by him, which has for many years past provided relief for the British subjects still remaining in the Soviet Union. The contribution is made from Sub-head T. of the Vote for Diplomatic and Consular Services, in which provision is specifically made for the relief of distressed British subjects in any foreign country. Monthly accounts showing the distribution of relief from the total fund thus secured are furnished to the Foreign Office by His Majesty's consular officers in the Soviet Union.

Is it not a fact that British subjects in Russia are unable to leave that country on account of age, and in some cases also on account of ill-health; and is it not a fact that the representatives of the Russian Government have done nothing whatever to help them?

I think that supplementary question has already been answered in the affirmative.

Trade and Commerce

Abyssinia (British Traders' Claims)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if his attention has been called to the difficulties of British traders in Abyssinia in obtaining settlement of claims upon which judgments have been obtained; and if he will make representations to secure the removal of these disabilities suffered by British traders?

Yes, Sir. This question constantly engages the attention of the diplomatic body at Addis Ababa, since the other foreign traders are as much embarrassed by the difficulty of securing the execution of judgments given against Abyssinian debtors as are their British competitors. Suggestions for the reorganisation of the Special Court at Addis Ababa and the improvement of the machinery to give effect to its judgments are at the present moment under discussion between the diplomatic body and the Abyssinian Government.

While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for his reply, may I ask him if he is aware that the Italian and United States Governments have obtained settlements of their judgments while the British Government have not?

I was not aware of that. But if the hon. Member has any information on the point mentioned, I shall be very pleased to receive it and to look into the matter.

Cereals (Import Restrictions)

asked the President of the Board of Trade what countries have powers conferred on the Government to restrict importation of cereals by licence, prohibition, or discriminatory tariffs, including countries within the British Empire?

As the answer to this question is necessarily long, I propose, with the hon. and gallant Member's permission, to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the answer:

Control over the imports of cereals is vested in the Government by special legislation in a few countries, including the Union of South Africa, Germany, Norway, Estonia and Portgual. In several other countries a control of imports in general could be exercised by Government under powers conferred by legislation, and France, Belgium, Czechoslovakia, Spain and New Zealand may be quoted as examples of countries which have in practice imposed a control on the imparts of certain cereals under such powers. In many countries, of course, general legislative powers are vested in the Executive and could presumably be used in the direction indicated. The powers possessed by the Governments of the various countries of the world to impose discriminatory tariffs on cereals cannot readily be summarised, but it may be said in general that in very many countries the Government has power to impose special duties (or even to prohibit imports) to meet special circumstances such as dumping and other forms of unfair competition and as a retaliation against discrimination abroad.

Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia (Tariff Agreement)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can give any information concerning the projected commercial treaty between Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia?

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the terms of the commercial treaty recently completed between the Governments of Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia have been made public; and if appropriate measures have been taken for the protection of the interests of British trade in both these countries?

I understand that negotiations have been proceeding between the Czechoslovak and Yugoslav Governments for a tariff agreement, which would supplement the Commercial Treaty of November, 1928, between the two countries. I have seen a statement in the Press to the effect that agreement has been reached recently, but I have received no official information on the subject. With regard to the second part of the question by the hon. Member for Moseley (Mr. Hannon), His Majesty's Government will, as usual, carefully watch developments, but I may observe that the United Kingdom enjoys most-favourednation rights by treaty in both Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia.

Does the hon. Gentleman propose to make some inquiries about this treaty to try to ascertain what are the facts?

Did the representatives of His Majesty's Government in Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia make any communications to my hon. Friend as to what negotiations were proceeding in relation to this treaty, or did he only hear about it when this question appeared on the Paper?

I could not answer that question without notice, but I may point out that, if any treaty had come into existence, according to the terms of the old treaty we should have secured information.

When the hon. Gentleman makes inquiries will he also ask whether the reason for this treaty is not the need of self-defence against Russian dumping?

Egypt (Czechoslovakian Goods)

asked the President of the Board of Trade what is the amount of the preference that the Egyptian Government has granted to Czechoslovakian goods entering Egypt?

I understand that Czechoslovakian goods enjoy no prefer- ence in Egypt, being merely entitled in common with other countries with which Egypt is in treaty relations, to mostfavoured-nation treatment, that is to say the duties laid down in the Egyptian autonomous tariff without surtax.

Russia

asked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department on how many occasions a communication has been made concerning the report on the organisation of the administrative machinery of foreign trade in the Soviet Union; when the last reminder was despatched; and whether he can state the reasons that are delaying the presentation of this report?

My Department has addressed three communications to the Commercial Counsellor to His Majesty's Embassy at Moscow regarding this matter; the last one was sent on 4th December. In reply the Commercial Counsellor explained in a letter dated 4th February that the machinery of foreign trade was still in process of reorganisation and that if his report was to be up-to-date, some delay was unavoidable.

What steps does the hon. Gentleman propose to take next to get this information?

Questions

French Foreign Legion (British Subjects)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can give the House any information regarding the shooting without trial of four British subjects serving in the French Foreign Legion, three of whom belonged to London and one, named Masters, to Moss Side, Manchester?

I have no information regarding any such events, but if my hon. Friend will give me further particulars, I will, of course, look into the matter.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the individual who reported the alleged shooting also stated in his letter that the Legionaries were compelled to march 100 miles in 48 hours, and that the total strength of the Legion was 500,000 men of whom 100,000 were British?

Liberia

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the administrative officer and financial commissioner appointed by the special committee of the League of Nations to proceed to Liberia have yet been selected; whether these officers will have power to give effect to the recommendations of the commission of inquiry regarding the Liberian frontier force and the district administration of the tribal areas of the interior of Liberia; whether the Government of the United States of America has waived the 20 years' embargo on any new loan to the Liberian Government under the Firestone agreement; if so, whether the League is prepared to facilitate a new loan to finance European assistance in the administration of Liberia; whether the new provisional President of Liberia has declared himself willing to accept European assistance in the government of the indigenous Africans either from the League of Nations or the Government of the United States of America or both; and whether the Government of the United States of America is co-operating fully with the League of Nations in their endeavours to improve the revealed maladministration of Liberia?

Yes, Sir. Monsieur Brunot of the French Colonial Service and Monsieur Ligthart who has had considerable banking experience in the Dutch East Indies, have been selected as experts in general administration and finance respectively. They will draw up a comprehensive plan of administrative reform for consideration by the Council of the League, and will, no doubt, take into account the recommendations of the recent Commission of Inquiry. The question of a loan to the Liberian Government will have to be considered when these experts have submitted their report. In this connection I would point out that the United States Government are not a party to the existing loan agreement between the Finance Corporation of America and the Liberian Government. The Liberian Government have applied to the League of Nations for assistance in carrying out the social reforms proposed by the recent Commission, which recommended, amongst other things, the appointment of European or American district commissioners. The United States Government are represented on the committee set up by the League to examine this question.

Is it not a fact that no loan or financial assistance to Liberia from the League is practicable until the United States Government have made a new agreement with the United States Finance Corporation waiving the embargo which exists on further loans to Liberia?

That may be correct, but before I could give an official answer I think I would require to have notice.

Royal Navy

Panama Canal (His Majesty's Ship "Nelson")

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if full inquiries were made on the navigation capacity of the Panama Canal before His Majesty's Ship "Nelson" entered the waterway; and whether, in view of the risks this vessel ran of injury during her passage through portions of the canal, the Admiralty will, in future, refrain from sending ships of this size through the canal?

All the necessary information as to the capacity of the canal is available in the Admiralty. The Admiralty do not consider that there is any risk of injury that would justify a general prohibition of ships of this size proceeding through the canal.

Is it a fact that at one stage in her progress through the canal, this ship had only one foot of water to spare?

Devonport Dockyard (Discharges)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that casual workers in His Majesty's Dockyard, Devonport, are discharged on a notice of two hours; and whether, seeing that many men are employed on a casual basis, he can arrange for them to be given a longer period of notice?

The facts stated by the hon. Member are incorrect but, as pointed out to him in answer to his question of the 18th March (OFFICIAL REPORT, Column 2004–5, Vol. 249) if he will let me have any specific instances where he deems insufficient notice to have been given, I shall be glad to make inquiries.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a week or two ago a number of employés were dismissed in the manner described in the question?

I have no information to that effect, and I can find no justification for that suggestion in the records. The shortest notice which I have seen recently was one given at noon on the 27th to the effect that the worker's services would not be required after the evening of the 28th.

Dockyards (Foreign Orders)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, seeing that Italy is building 19 war vessels for foreign Governments in her State dockyards and this country is building none, something can be done to secure similar orders in this country?

So far as I am aware there are no war vessels being built in Italian State dockyards for any foreign country, but there are a considerable number under construction for foreign Governments in private yards in Italy. I have reason to believe that every effort is made by British firms to obtain similar orders when opportunity occurs.

Has the right hon. Gentleman any information to show that the private yards in Italy receive a Government subsidy?

Does the Admiralty give any assistance to private firms here to secure orders for foreign warships?

The Government always render to British traders what legitimate assistance they can.

Is it not notorious in shipbuilding circles in Germany, France and Italy that the Governments give heavy subsidies to shipbuilding yards?

There are rumours that subsidies are given by Governments but we have no official information to that effect.

Battleship Design

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he has any information as to the performance and efficiency of the pocket battleships of the German fleet; and whether, as a result of this information, any modifications are proposed in the basis of British battleship design?

No information is as yet available as to the performance and efficiency of these ships.

Medical Officers

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty what are the rates of remuneration and conditions of service for medical officers in the Royal Navy?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the Appendix to the Navy List, of which I am sending him a copy. Full particulars of the pay, etc., of naval medical officers will be found on pages 7, 35 and 43, etc., and the conditions of entry and service both of permanent and short service officers on pages 147 and 150 respectively.

Discharge by Purchase

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty the grounds, other than compassionate, upon which a naval man, prepared to purchase, may be given his discharge?

Discharge by purchase is a privilege at the discretion of the Admiralty. Where discharge is asked for on other than compassionate grounds, or indeed in any case, the Admiralty consider simply the convenience of or inconvenience to the Service involved.

Do the Admiralty never take into account the fact that a man who asks for his discharge, and is willing to pay for it, is going to better himself?

All the facts are taken into account, but we must have regard to the convenience or inconvenience of the Service for which the man definitely enters for a given period.

Can my right hon. Friend tell me what inconvenience one leading supply officer can possibly cause to the Navy?

Everything depends on what is the actual state of the roll of the Service at the time, and we must have regard to that; it is also fair to point out that, when it is a question of a man leaving a service of this kind, the fact that there are unemployed men looking for work has to be taken into consideration.

Kenya

Native Reserves

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies the area of Crown land granted, freehold or leasehold, to Africans in Kenya Colony from 1900 to 1st October, 1930, and from 1st October, 1930, to 1st January, 1931, respectively?

The area of the native reserves in Kenya as gazetted is 48,296 square miles. This figure, of course, does not include the Northern Frontier Province and Turkana, which together cover about two-and-a-half times that area. As regards individual holdings by Africans of land conveyed by grant of Crown land, inquiry will be made of the Government of Kenya, but the number is undoubtedly very small at present.

Is it a fact that the land already reserved for the natives of Kenya is sufficient to meet all native requirements?

I am not sure that that is so as regards the future, but I think it is so as regards the present.

Maize (Subsidy)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the subsidy of £108,000 to be paid by the Kenya Government to European maize growers is to be found out of the ordinary revenues of the Colony to which non-Europeans have contributed or out of funds contributed by Europeans alone?

The subsidy which is repayable and which may not reach the maximum figure of £108,000, is being found by advances out of the general surplus balances of the Colony. I would remind my hon. Friend that there is no racial discrimination in the grant of this assistance.

Are we to understand that all these advances, whether to African natives or to Europeans, are regarded by the Kenya Government as recoverable?

Questions

Tanganyika (Coffee Growing)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether there has been any spread of weeds or pests as a result of the increased growing of coffee by natives in Tanganyika territory?

There has been no suggestion of this in any of the agricultural or other reports received from the Government of Tanganyika by my Noble Friend.

Will the experience of Tanganyika in this respect be taken into account when the question of coffee growing by natives in Kenya Colony is considered in future?

Yes, I have no doubt that this consideration is before the minds of those responsible in Kenya.

Palestine (Brigandage)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if he can communicate to the House the details of the act of brigandage in Palestine which took place on Sunday night, the 22nd instant, between Jerusalem and Haifa; and what measures are being taken to prevent a recurrence of crimes of this character?

Yes, Sir; the following are the details. Twenty-three persons in eight cars were held up three kilometres south of Jenin at 5.30 p.m. on the 22nd March, by three armed brigands, who had blocked the road with stones. The victims report that they were robbed of money, clothes, and watches, valued at £500. One traveller was shot and slightly injured. The police were informed at 7.30 p.m., and immediately started in pursuit of the brigands. All three brigands were arrested on the 25th March by the police in conjunction with the Arab Legion at Irbid, Trans-Jordan. Police patrol activities have been increased with a view to preventing any recurrence of the incident.

Is the hon. Gentleman now quite satisfied that the police organisation in Palestine is sufficient to meet any requirements?

Yes, I think the police organisation in Palestine is now excellent. As the hon. Member knows, following a report of Inspector-General Dowbiggin, of Ceylon, the whole force has been reorganised.

Iraq (Oil-Pipe Lines)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the question of constructing oil-pipe lines from the Iraq petroleum fields to the Mediterranean has now been settled; what route will the pipe lines follow; and which port or ports will be used for the seaward end?

Details of the new agreement which, I am informed, was signed on the 24th March between the Iraq Government and the Iraq Petroleum Company, have not yet been communicated to me; but I understand that it contemplates the construction of two pipe line systems from a point of bifurcation in Iraq, one terminating in the Bay of Acre and the other in the vicinity of Tripoli.

Will the hon. Gentleman let me know when he has actual details?

Yes, but the question of publication is a matter of arrangement between the Iraq Government and the Iraq Petroleum Company.

Can the hon. Gentleman say what proportion of the oil will go to one port or the other?

Why is there not a report on this matter, seeing that it has been debated in the French Chamber?

This is an agreement between the Iraq Government and the Iraq Petroleum Company, and, while we have been kept generally informed, we have not details of the arrangement.

Will the hon. Gentleman let me know when I can put another question on the matter?

Liquor Traffic Convention

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies what progress is being made in applying the undertakings contained in the Saint Germain Liquor Traffic Convention of 1919 to B and C mandated territories?

The undertakings in the Convention of St. Germain-en-Laye have been applied to all British mandated territories in Africa by local legislation.

Royal Air Force

Training Exercises (Live Ammunition)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether he will give particulars of orders issued by his Department to limit in future the occasions on which live ammunition is carried by the Royal Air Force aeroplanes during training exercises over inhabited areas in or near London?

The King's Regulations and Air Council Instructions, paragraph 776, prohibit the carry- ing of live bombs and small arms ammunition in aircraft in time of peace. The only exception is when aircraft are actually going to or returning from ranges or practice bombing targets, and on these occasions the orders are that thickly populated areas will be avoided.

Is it not a fact that they carry machine guns and live cartridges, and is it not possible to have practice over the country instead of over populated areas?

The information I have given is based on instructions issued as recently as December, and they are quite specific.

Airship R100

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air what it is proposed to do with the airship R100?

As the hon. Member is aware, the report of the R100 Inquiry has only just been received. I am not yet, therefore, in a position to add anything to the replies which I have given on several occasions during recent months, to the effect that until this report has been carefully considered in all its bearings, no decision will be made regarding the future of the airship R100.

Will the hon. Gentleman give some indication of the policy and as to the utility or otherwise of airships?

In view of the value of the skill of the men who have been engaged on the R100 and R101, will not the Ministry retain their services as a matter of economy, rather than discharge them, as they are doing, for purposes of so-called economy?

Transport

London Traffic Advisory Committee

asked the Minister of Transport whether it is intended, in the reconstitution of the London and Home Counties Traffic Advisory Committee, to make provision for the representation on that body of the taximeter-cab trade?

Provision for the re-constitution of the London and Home Counties Traffic Advisory Committee is made in the London Passenger Transport Bill now before Parliament, and I propose, when the time comes to consult the bodies representing the interests of persons providing means of transport, including the taximeter-cab trade, before coming to a decision as to the representation of such interests on the committee.

Will my right hon. Friend make a special effort in this matter, seeing that there are 8,500 taxi-cabs in London and that the traffic regulations concern taxi-cab drivers as well as the travelling public?

Rubber Roadways (Hospitals)

asked the Minister of Transport if, in view of the opportunity afforded by the low price of rubber, he will, where possible, direct and elsewhere recommend that the roadways immediately around urban hospitals be covered with a rubber surface?

I understand there has been a considerable reduction in the price of rubber paving blocks, but that the cost is still relatively high. Local authorities are in the best position to judge of the circumstances which should govern the choice of paving materials, and I do not think it would be appropriate for me to exert pressure on them in the direction which the hon. Member suggests.

Supposing the local authorities in London or elsewhere do wish to have rubber roadways, will the right hon. Gentleman favourably consider the appropriate grants from the Road Fund?

We will consider the cases on their merits, including the question of economy which would be involved.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consult with his right hon. colleague the Minister of Health?

Dartford-Purfleet Tunnel

asked the Minister of Transport the present position with regard to the proposed Dartford-Purfleet tunnel?

I regret that I am unable at present to add anything with regard to the position of the Dartford-Purfleet tunnel scheme to the answer which I gave in reply to a similar question by my hon. Friend on the 16th March, beyond stating that negotiations are being pressed forward on all outstanding questions, but that it will necessarily take some little time before final arrangements can be made for inviting the first tender.

Questions

London Passenger Transport Bill

asked the Minister of Transport whether, under the London Passenger Transport Bill, it is intended that the same basis of compensation should be adopted in regard to the acquisition of private transport undertakings and those owned by local authorities which have been acquired and operated on the security of the rates; and, if not, will he state what distinction is proposed to be drawn as regards the terms of purchase in regard to these two classes of undertakings?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. Directions as to the basis on which the various undertakings are to be transferred to the London Passenger Transport Board are contained in the Bill and were explained in my speech on the Second Reading (OFFICIAL REPORT, 23rd March, cols. 60–62).

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many of these small owners are rather worried as to how they may be dealt with in the matter of compensation? Their position is quite different from that of the big transport undertakings, because they are small men, with only one or two omnibuses.

I am not sure whether "worried" is the right word to use, but we are all worried in a matter of this kind; both the people who are going to be paid and the Board, who have to pay, are concerned. The hon. and gallant Member may be sure that every reasonable consideration will be taken into account.

Scotland

Electricity Supply, Ardrishaig

asked the Minister of Transport whether, in erecting plant to supply the Crinan Canal and the harbour at Ardrishaig with electric light and power, he will arrange for sufficient surplus to be provided to enable the inhabitants of Ardrishaig to get power and light at a reasonable price to them and with a resulting profit to the Ministry of Transport?

A proposal of this nature from the Ardrishaig Village Improvement Association has already been considered but its adoption was found on investigation to be impracticable and the association were informed accordingly.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman think it is rather unreasonable that this small town should have to provide its own current when he has a station near from which he could spare the little extra current they would require? It would bring him in some revenue.

There are technical difficulties and objections in the way. The hon. and learned Member's question suggests that there is money in the matter, but I am advised that there is not. I think his supplementary question indicates that he thinks there is not, but that there are other aspects at the back of his mind.

Is it not a fact that the Act of 1926 would prevent what the hon. and learned Member for Argyllshire (Mr. Macquisten) is asking for, and that it is not a question of any technicalities but the protection of profiteers?

I am not sure that that is so; and, further, in this case, there is no authorised undertaking in that village.

Fishing Industry

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will now take steps to have brought into effect the recommendations of the Mackenzie Committee in reference to trawling in inshore waters?

I would refer the hon. and learned Member to my reply of the 12th February to the hon. and gallant Member for Caithness and Sutherland, in which I stated that the outstanding recommendations of the committee are being borne in mind with a view to action being taken when suitable opportunities occur.

Is it not a fact that nothing has been done, and that the people on the island who rely for their food on the fish now find it destroyed year after year?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that those recommendations were made nearly 10 years ago?

In reply to the hon. and learned Member for Argyllshire (Mr. Macquisten), it is not correct to say that nothing has been done. While we were in office in 1924 two additional fast cruiser vessels were put into service, one on the west coast and one in Shetland Waters. Again, in 1924, while we were in office, a motor launch was commissioned and attached to the "Vigilant" on the west coast, and since we came into office, again in 1930, a motor launch was commissioned for service in the Moray Firth. Therefore, it is not correct, as I have already said, to say that we have done nothing.

While I give the right hon. Gentleman full credit for the things which he has carried out in his Department, may I ask him if he is not aware that the penalties have not been increased, and that they are so trifling that a trawler does not care whether he is caught or not? The penalty is only £100 for taking £1,000 worth of fish.

Piers and Harbours

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when the work of erecting and reconditioning the various piers in urgent need thereof in Argyll is to be begun?

I have received the report of the Inter-Departmental Committee on Piers and Harbours on the north-east, north and west coasts of Scotland, and, as there is a considerable number of such piers and harbours requiring attention, I am at the moment considering the question of priority.

Will the right hon. Gentleman try to accelerate the progress? Has he not observed the statement that certain companies which have provided beautiful new ships are afraid to let them call at a number of these piers, because a single touch from a ship would crash them into ruins; and will he try to see that some of these piers are put right?

I have already informed the hon. and learned Member that I am giving this matter my attention.

Will the right hon. Gentleman visit the locus, and bear in mind that it is piers that we want, and not attention?

Will the right hon. Gentleman fulfil his promise, made to me some time ago, that he will give serious and earnest attention to the piers on the East coast?

I have no intention of publishing the report, but hon. Members may rest assured that, as I have just said, the matter is receiving my attention. May I also add that more has been done for the fishing industry, and in regard to putting piers and harbours into order, since we entered into office in 1929, than was done by any previous Government.

Land Purchase, Perthshire

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what amounts have been paid to the Montrose Estates, Limited, and to the Earl of Ancaster, respectively, in connection with the purchase by the county council of Perth-shire of the road from Aberfoyle to the Trossachs; what were the annual rate-able values of such roads; and how much Government grant has been paid in respect of this arrangement?

I am informed that the arrangements to be made for the acquisition of lands and rights by the county council of Perthshire for the road works in question have not yet been settled. No grant has yet been paid in respect of the scheme.

Munition Worker (Compensation Claim)

asked the Secretary of State for War if the claim to compensation following a breakdown in health due to War-time service in a munition factory of Miss M. Wilson, of St. Kilda, Bishop-briggs, Lanarkshire, has been brought to his notice; and, if so, what action he proposes to take?

As I have already explained to my hon. Friend, Miss Wilson's disability is not such as would qualify her for an award under the terms of the Workmen's Compensation Act, and I regret that I am, therefore, unable to sanction any payment.

Is the Minister aware that the doctor attending this lady gives me a signed certificate, and her friends give a unanimous opinion, that her health was undermined by her munition service; and is there no special fund, or any means whatever, by which she can be compensated?

Unfortunately, I am helpless in the matter. I can only carry out the law, and, unless the Compensation Act gives compensation, there is nothing that I can do. In this case the Compensation Act cannot be applied. I will see if I can meet the hon. Lady in the way she mentions, although at the moment I know of no fund that can help in this case.

Questions

Ex-Enemy Debts Department

asked the President of the Board of Trade what is now the number of persons employed in the clearing office for enemy debts; what was the number of persons similarly employed a year ago; on what date the Mixed Arbitral Tribunal (Germany) ceased to meet; and whether he can state the probable date upon which the clearing office for enemy debts will be closed?

The staff of the Clearing Office (Enemy Debts) now numbers 245, as compared with 368 on the 1st April, 1930. The Anglo-German Mixed Arbitral Tribunal ceased to be in continuous session on the 1st March, but will re-assemble in July to dispose of the few cases still outstanding. Every effort is being made to bring the work of the Clearing Office to an end, but much legal and intricate accounting work still remains to be done, and it is not yet possible to state a probable date for the closing down of the office.

In view of the fact that accounting work only remains to be done, has not the time arrived when this business should be taken back into the Department of the Public Trustee, to save expense?

The position is being closely watched, but we think it better to leave the Department where it is for the time being.

Sudan Plantations Syndicate

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the Sudan Cotton Corporation still receives a subsidy from the British Government; and what proportion of its cotton output is exported to Japan?

No British Government subsidy has been or is being paid to the Sudan Plantations Syndicate, which is presumably the body to which my hon. Friend refers. In 1929, the latest year for which information is available, practically the whole of the exports of cotton from the Sudan were to this country.

Grand Opera (Government Grant)

asked the Postmaster-General the present position of the negotiations concerning the agreement which includes provision involving a State subsidy to be paid in respect of grand opera?

This matter is still under discussion in connection with an application by the British Broadcasting Corporation for a revision of the financial terms of their existing agreement

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether the Postmaster-General is hopeful that this agreement will soon be concluded.

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether smaller amounts will go to the credit of the Exchequer as the result of this agreement?

In view of the fact that negotiations have been reopened, could not the opportunity be taken to get the matter dropped?

Can the hon. Member not do something to allay the anxiety of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood)?

Post Office

Telephone Service

asked the Postmaster-General whether, seeing that, according to the official statistical yearly report of the American Telephone and Telegraph Company, the telephone conversations, telegrams, and pieces of first-class mail per capita are 230.7, 1.9, and 137, respectively, and the corresponding figures in Great Britain are 30.6, 1.2 and 131, respectively, he can say what steps he is contemplating for the improvement and extension of the telephone service in this country?

I would refer the hon. Member to my hon. Friend's reply of the 23rd of March to the hon. Member for Cardiff East (Mr. Edmunds)

Was the reply to the effect that something was being done or that the matter was under consideration?

The reply was to the effect that my hon. Friend has already given consideration to ways and means of speeding up the telephone service.

Birth Control Literature

asked the Postmaster-General if his attention has been drawn to the extensive use of the post for the dissemination of birth control literature; and if he will take further steps to prohibit such use of the post?

My attention has been drawn to the fact that such literature is sent by post, but I am advised that, unless the language used is indecent or obscene, I have no power to prohibit the transmission of such matter by post.

Housing

Defaulting Local Authorities

asked the Minister of Health in how many cases the powers vested in him by Clause 75 of the Housing Act of 1925, and Clause 52 of the Housing Act of 1930, with regard to defaulting local authorities have been exercised?

There has been no such case. Local authorities have invariably preferred the alternative of themselves carrying out the necessary works.

Ex-Service Men

asked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether the Irish Sailors and Soldiers Land Trust have prepared the scheme for ex-service tenants to obtain their cottages?

I am informed that the preparation of the purchase scheme referred to is nearly complete.

Questions

Town and Countey Planning Bill

asked the Minister of Health if he will issue a White Paper showing which parts of the Town and Country Planning Bill are the consolidation or re-enactment of existing legislation, which parts amend the present law, and which parts introduce new proposals?

My right hon. Friend will consider the issue of a White Paper, which will give these particulars, though he fears it may not be practicable to do this before the Second Reading of the Bill.

Poor Law Relief (Ex-Service Pensioners)

asked the Minister of Health if he is aware that the Kent County Public Assistance Committee are claiming and receiving the whole of the disability pension of Mr. Charles Amber in respect of the maintenance of himself and his wife and children; and whether any portion is set aside for the man to be returned to him on discharge?

asked the Minister of Pensions whether any claims are accepted by him in respect of disabled pensioners who, by reason of destitution, are compelled to enter public assistance institutions; and whether the whole of the pension can be so claimed, or does the Ministry retain any portion for the man's use on resuming employment?

Claims made by local authorities in respect of institutional assistance to disabled pensioners are entertained under the provisions of the Royal Warrants. The amount repayable out of the pension would be determined within the rates prescribed by the extent of the assistance given and the circumstances of the particular case; but the residue, if any, of the pension would be handed to the pensioner when payment of pension is resumed on his discharge from the institution.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Dartford Public Assistance Committee are retaining the whole of the pension payable to this man in respect of his wife and children; and, if I send my right hon. Friend the papers, will he go into the question?

Trade Disputes and Trade Unions (Amendment) Bill

asked the Prime Minister if he is yet in a position to state the intention of the Government with regard to the repeal or amendment of the Trade Disputes Act, 1927?

The Prime Minister has nothing to add to the reply which he gave to the hon. Member on the 9th March.

If I put the question down after Easter will the Prime Minister then have made up his mind?

I am quite sure the Prime Minister will be ready to answer any question.

May we be assured that there has been no change in the policy of His Majesty's Government?

If, as I gather the anxiety of the hon. Member is that he feels that there is an injustice to the trade unionists, I agree with him.

Betting Laws

asked the Prime Minister if he is yet in a position to state the policy of the Government in connection with the state of the betting laws; and if he proposed to find time after the Easter Recess for legislation dealing with this matter?

The present policy of the Government, in view of the highly controversial nature of this topic, is to examine carefully all proposals to vary the law in one direction or another. Unless and until specific proposals have been formulated, the second part of the question cannot arise.

Can the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that the Government will make up their mind and not appoint a Royal Commission?

There is no doubt about the Government making up their minds. The difficulty is the varied opinions of the other side.

Agriculture

Land Drainage

asked the Minister of Agriculture if he has approved the map and constituted the board of the Ancholme and Winterton Beck catchment area; and if he will give the reason for the delay and the date on which the board will be constituted and commence to function?

The map of the catchment area and the Order constituting the catchment board have now been definitely settled and will be sealed almost immediately, and it is hoped that the first meeting of the board, of which 14 days' notice has to be given to each member, will be held before the end of April. Any delay in this case has been caused by the necessity to give careful consideration to the objections put forward to the map and the Order and to a number of intricate legal points peculiar to this catchment board.

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether his attention has been called to the difficulties caused to certain owners and occupiers of land within the internal drainage boards through their being unable to make the application contemplated by Section 21 (3) of the Land Drainage Act, 1930, and having to bear expenditure which should be met by a contribution from the catchment board of the Ancholme area; and will he state what is the present position?

As I have explained to the hon. and gallant Member in answer to a previous question, the catchment board for the Ancholme area has now been settled. Questions such as those to which the hon. and gallant Member refers will doubtless be considered as soon as the catchment board is in a position to deal with them.

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether his attention has been called to the difficulties caused under the Land Drainage Act, 1930, to a statutory authority which is charged with the joint statutory duties of drainage and navigation, especially concerning property which includes tolls of such authority; and whether he proposes to introduce legislation to remove any doubt as to the local status of such a statutory authority in regard to levying rates on an acreage basis for the purpose of maintaining works of drainage and navigation?

I am aware of a case of the kind referred to by the hon. and gallant Member, but I am advised that no further legislation is necessary.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say how this difficult matter is being dealt with?

That is a matter for the authorities concerned. I understand that, as far as we are concerned, no further legislation is necessary.

Questions

Beet-Sugar Subsidy

asked the Minister of Agriculture if he will consider the question of discontinuing the present subsidy to the Anglo-Dutch group of beet-sugar factories unless and until they fall into line with the terms of the national settlement, as agreed to by the other factories?

I have no power to adopt my hon. Friend's suggestion which might, in any event, be disadvantageous to the growers who have contracted with the companies in question.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are many growers who are unable to contract except at a very much reduced price and below the national settlement?

Yes, I am unfortunately aware of it, and it is due to this group not coming into line with the rest, and, if the subsidy were withdrawn, they would be worse off still.

Irish Free State (Seal)

asked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs if he will state why the British Government have approved of the Great Seal of the Realm being replaced by a new Irish Free State Seal for the sealing of official documents relating to matters affecting the Irish Free State; and whether legislation will be introduced in the matter?

The circumstances in which the alteration of procedure referred to was made have been explained in an official statement issued last week by His Majesty's Government in the Irish Free State. His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom had not contemplated that special legislation would be necessary in this country to deal with this matter.

Can the Secretary of State say for what reason the Irish Free State are not content with the Great Seal of the Realm when the rest of the Dominions are content?

In 1926 the Imperial Conference decided upon a procedure which gave to the Dominions certain rights. Those rights have been exercised by the Irish Free State. They are matters exclusively between His Majesty and His Majesty's Government in the Irish Free State. Therefore, I see no purpose in interfering.

I asked the right hon. Gentleman why the Irish Free State want a new seal when none of the great Dominions does.

House of Commons (Refreshment Department)

asked the hon. Member for the Gorton Division, as Chairman of the Kitchen Committee, whether the eggs served in the dining and tea rooms bear the national mark and are guaranteed new laid?

All eggs used in the Refreshment Department bear the national mark. This mark is the Government guarantee of finest quality and freshness.

Can my hon. Friend say in what form the national mark has appeared on eggs?

That is entirely a matter for the Ministry of Agriculture. We get national mark eggs, and they are guaranteed.

Coal Dndustry (Supplies)

asked the Secretary for Mines whether he is aware that coal merchants in the South-Western counties are experiencing difficulty in obtaining deliveries of house coal from the Yorkshire and Derbyshire areas; and if he will take such action as may be necessary to bring up production to the requirements of the consuming public?

I am aware that temporary difficulties in obtaining full supplies of coal from the Midlands have been experienced by some merchants in the South-Western counties, but suitable coal has been available from other and nearer sources of supply. As the coal which is produced during the new period of output allocation commencing to-day comes forward, difficulties in obtaining Midland coal should disappear.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, in the opinion of the coal merchants, the supply from the Somerset pits is unsuitable for house coal, and the supply from the Forest of Dean is not altogether satisfactory, the best coal, apparently, coming from the Nottingham area; and does he not think that the existing dislocation is an indication of the Government's failure to deal successfully with this problem?

I cannot agree with the statement of the hon. and gallant Member that the coal merchants hold that view. Indeed, they have expressed entirely contrary views.

Did the hon. Gentleman say "nearer" sources of supply, or "dearer" sources of supply?

Police

Plain-Clothes Officers

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many plain-clothes policemen there are in Great Britain and in the London area, respectively?

The numbers are approximately 4,534 in Great Britain and 1,701 in the Metropolitan Police District and the City of London. These figures include men employed on all duties performed in plain clothes and men of all ranks. The number employed on detective duties were 2,892 and 1,249, respectively.

College

asked the Home Secretary whether he is yet in a position to make a statement with regard to the proposed establishment of a police college?

Can my right hon. Friend say when he will be in a position to make a statement?

I regret to say that the matter has taken rather longer than I had anticipated, but it is a subject which, naturally, has had to be referred to and considered by a very large number of local authorities. We are doing all that we can to expedite a decision.

Questions

Local Government Elections (Fishermen)

asked the Home Secretary if he has considered the resolution of the Grimsby Borough Council urging that arrangements should be made to allow fishermen to vote by proxy at local government elections; and what action he proposes to take?

I have not received a copy of the resolution of the borough council, but the proposal would need legislation, which I cannot promise to introduce.

Will the right hon. Gentleman promise to bear this matter in mind in bringing in any further Bill dealing with the franchise?

This matter has not been before us. It is one of the many subjects which later may form the framework of a comprehensive Bill.

Lotteries and Sweepstakes

asked the Home Secretary what action is being taken when letters with money in them for purchase of sweepstake tickets are intercepted by the postal authorities; and what is done with the money?

The action depends upon the circumstances; the money would usually be sent back to the sender.

May I ask my right hon. Friend how it is decided who shall be proceeded against? Who actually decides in which cases there shall be action at law?

The police authorities. Money would not be sent back if a prosecution were pending, or if there were some doubt as to the identity or correct address of the person concerned.

I am sorry to press my right hon. Friend, but who decides when there shall be a prosecution?

Is there any compensation paid to persons whose letters have been wrongfully opened, for the great delay caused thereby?

I understand that there has been no claim for compensation; I am told that they are satisfied with what they term a "flutter."

Finance and Industry

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer when the report of the Macmillan Commission on banking and currency will be available; and whether the sittings of the Committee are finished and the report now in preparation?

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Macmillan Committee, set up nearly 17 months ago to make recommendations calculated to promote the employment of labour, has yet reported.

The position is as stated in the replies which I gave on 24th March, in answer to a question by the hon. Member for Devonport (Mr. Hore-Belisha).

Does not the hon. Gentleman think it is high time that this House had some information regarding this Commission, which was appointed no fewer than 17 months ago, and which is considering a matter of the greatest moment to every Member of the House, before the Budget is introduced?

I am sorry it is not possible to say anything beyond what I have said. The report is under active consideration by the Committee, and I cannot do anything else.

Has the attention of the Committee been drawn to the large number of questions that have been addressed to him on the subject?

In view of the fact that many of us are endeavouring to find schemes for relieving unemployment, does not the hon. Gentleman think that a body of 14 men—

Suez Canal Company

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the fact that over 40 per cent. on the original capital invested in the Suez Canal Company was received last year by His Majesty's Government, they are prepared to consider retaining a 5 per cent. return on the investment, and applying the residue towards a relief of the burdens on British shipping and trade using the canal?

My right hon. Friend is not prepared to propose to Parliament action along the lines suggested by the hon. and gallant Member.

Does the hon. Gentleman realise that more than £1,500,000 is extracted from the pockets of shipowners in this respect, and it must have a very serious effect on the price of food, clothing and raw material, and will he consider bringing it within the purview of the Consumers Council?

I do not know about the last part of the ques-, tion but I would refer the hon. and gallant Gentleman to the very full answer given by the President of the Board of Trade to a question yesterday.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the attitude of the French administration of the Suez Canal towards British subjects is a constant source of friction and injures Anglo-French relations? Is he aware that matters cannot be left where they are now?

That has nothing to do with the question on the Paper. It relates to a very much wider question. I deprecate any criticism of the action of foreigners in the matter.

Will the hon. Gentleman assure the House that the matter will be considered by the Government in all its aspects with a view to obtaining some relief for British and other shipping?

The original question was on a single point and I have dealt with that. The larger question is a matter for the President of the Board of Trade.

Commissions and Committees

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury the number of Royal Commissions, committees of inquiry, and departmental committees which have been appointed since the General Election; the number which have reported; and the number of reports which have been issued for publication?

The appointment of 74 commissions and committees has been announced since the Government took office, of which 15 are standing bodies. Reports have been issued in 18 cases, and 14 of them have been published.

Has any action been taken as the result of any of the 18 reports?

I cannot charge my memory to answer a comprehensive question of that kind, but, if the hon. and learned Gentleman had been a Member of the House, he would no doubt be aware of what the Government has done.

Unemployment

Coalheavers, Grimsby

asked the Minister of Labour if she will state the number of coalheavers registered as out of employment at the Grimsby Employment Exchange for the week ended 28th March, 1931?

I am making inquiry and will communicate the result to the hon. Member.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is a considerable amount of unemployment among these men owing to the operation of the quota system? Will he get these figures at the earliest possible moment?

I shall be able to tell whether there has been a considerable amount of unemployment when I get the figures. But whether there is or is not, it does not follow that the quota system is the cause.

Benefit (Prosecutions)

asked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of the continued growth of unemployment, the Government will reconsider their decision and introduce legislation to deal with the abuses which are known to exist in connection with the grant of unemployment benefit without waiting for the Royal Commission on Unemployment Insurance to report?

My right hon. Friend explained to the hon. and gallant Member on 2nd March that the Government cannot propose legislation with regard to alleged abuses while an inquiry is in progress as to whether such abuses exist or not. This reason still holds good and is not affected by the unemployment total, which, in fact, has fallen substantially in the past two weeks.

As it is acknowledged by the Government themselves that there are abuses, does not the hon. Gentleman think it would be advisable to take action instead of waiting for the report of the Royal Commission?

asked the Minister of Labour if she will state, month by month in 1930, the number of cases of alleged fraud in connection with claims for unemployment benefit in which criminal proceedings were taken, showing how the 914 cases were made up?

Temporary Exchange Clerks

asked the Minister of Labour whether she is aware that, in South Yorkshire and other places, unemployed persons are sent to act as temporary clerks in Employment Exchanges some considerable distance from home, which necessitates an expenditure in travelling of, in some cases, more than 8s. per week, out of a wage of about 45s. per week; and whether she will consider the advisability of paying the whole or part of the travelling expenses of such persons?

I am not aware of such cases and should be glad if my hon. Friend will give me particulars in order that inquiry may be made.

Questions

Earthquake, Managua

( by Private Notice ), asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he is in a position to assure the House of the safety of the personnel of His Majesty's Legation at Managua following the disastrous earthquake of yesterday; and if any information relating to the death or injury of British subjects in Nicaragua has yet been received?

Yes, Sir. A telegraphic report from His Majesty's Consul in Managua states that Managua was largely destroyed by earthquake on the 31st of March; that fire is threatening His Majesty's Legation; but that he has not heard of any casualties among the British colony. I think we may assume from this that the personnel of the legation are safe.

Sittings of the House

Resolved,

"That this House do meet To-morrow, at Eleven of the clock; that no questions be taken after Twelve of the clock; and that at Four of the clock Mr. Speaker do adjourn the House without Question put."—[ Mr. A. Henderson. ]

Rights of Railway Passengers

I beg to move, year we made provision that there should be none of these restrictive contracts. Clause 97 of that Act made all such contracts void. I propose in this Bill to extend to railway companies' vehicles the provision of Clause 97 of the Act of last year. What I have said also applies to week-end tickets.

I hope that I am not only going to get leave to-day to bring in the Bill but that afterwards the House will agree to give a speedy passage to the other stages of the Bill. This Easter time there will be hundreds and thousands of people travelling with these tickets, and, if accidents occur, they will have no action against the railway company however the accidents may be caused. I am not only asking leave to introdue this Bill and to apply the provisions in regard to ordinary motor traffic on the road to companies' vehicles, but that those Members of the House who are more closely associated with the railway companies will recognise the justice involved in passengers being given full rights of action against the companies. I hope that not only will they not oppose the Bill but that they will give assistance in securing the speedy passage of the Measure.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Stephen, Mr. Buchanan, Mr. Cove, Mr. Kirkwood, Mr. McGovern, Mr. Maxton, and Mr. Sandham.

Rights of Railway Passengers Bill,

"to provide for the avoidance of contracts so far as restrictive of liability in respect of death of or injury to passengers in railway company vehicles," presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Wednesday, 15th April, and to be printed. [Bill 121.]

Bills Reported

London Electric, Metropolitan District, and City and South London Railway Companies Bill

LIVERPOOL UNIVERSITY BILL [Lords]

London County Council (Vauxhall Cross Improvement) Bill

Reported, with Amendments; Reports to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

LONDON ASSURANCE BILL [Lords]

Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table.

Orders of the Day

Army and Air Force (Annual) Bill

Considered in Committee.

[Sir ROBERT YOUNG in the Chair.]

Clauses 1 ( Short title ), 2 ( Army Act and Air Force Act to be in force for specified times ), 3 ( Prices in respect of billeting ), 4 ( Amendment of Army Act, ss. 79. 161), 5 ( Amendment of Army Act, s. 85), 6 ( Amendment of Army Act, ss. 91, 130), and 7 ( Application to Air Force ), ordered to stand part of the Bill.

NEW CLAUSE.—(Amendment of s. 80 of the Army Act.)

At the end of Sub-section (1) of Section eighty of the Army Act (which relates to the mode of enlistment and attestation) the following Sub-section shall be added:—

The general conditions of the contract to be entered into shall include a stipulation that the recruit shall not be liable, nor shall it be lawful in pursuance of this Act to call upon such recruit, to take duty in aid of the civil power in connection with a trade dispute, or to perform, in consequence of a trade dispute, any civil or industrial duty customarily performed by a civilian in the course of his employment.

Provided that, in the event of His Majesty declaring by proclamation, in accordance with the provisions of the Emergency Powers Act, 1920, that a state of emergency exists, this stipulation shall not apply so long as such state of emergency exists.—[ Mr. Brockway. ]

Brought up, and read the First time.

I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."

The object of the Clause is to restrict the use of troops in cases of trade disputes. If this Clause were adopted, troops would be prevented from being used in a civilian capacity during trade disputes and also in the capacity of soldiers except under circumstances where the Emergency Powers Act of 1920 was in operation. I need not remind the Committee that Clauses to this effect have been moved from the Labour benches over a long series of years. When the Labour party in this House was of very small strength, I remember the late Mr. Keir Hardie used annually to put forward a claim of this nature, and while the Labour party have been in Opposition it has year by year put forward a similar proposal. I therefore very much hope that, when the Secretary of State for War comes to reply, he will find it possible to accept the Clause, if not actually in the form in which it stands upon the Paper, in purpose and intent. With that object in view, I have moved the Second Reading of the Clause.

I am afraid that I cannot accept the Clause in the way in which it is worded, and I will give one or two reasons why. If the Clause were accepted as it is worded, we should have the strange position of an Army with the new recruits under one condition of service and the present serving soldiers under another. That, I think, makes it absolutely impossible to accept the Clause as it is worded. The second reason is that if there happened to be very dangerous rioting which had some connection with a trade dispute, we might find the police overpowered and the gravest danger both to life and property. This actually might not be due to the strikers, because when these things take place there is generally an element of the population which has little or nothing to do either with the strikers or with honest work and which causes most of the damage and most of the trouble. You could not possibly, with the police over powered and in danger, keep anybody who is in the national service out of the duty of protecting the lives of the public and the property, factories, the mines, the docks or any other thing necessary to the country's life. You could not wait for a Royal Proclamation in an emergency like that, and we must retain the right to act suddenly and quickly in cases of emergency in order to guarantee the safety of the lives and property of the country. As far as the principle of the Clause is concerned—

As far as the spirit and the principle are concerned, as far as the desire is to see that the forces of this country are not used against the workers in trade disputes, are not, so to speak, put at the service of the employers, the Government accept fully, without reserve- tion that principle, and will take such steps as will secure that the Armed Forces of the Crown are not to be used against the trade unions and in no sense shall be used as strike breakers. May I add, in this connection, that from inquiries I have made and advice I have received, there is no more distasteful thing in the world to the military than to be called upon to intervene in a civil dispute. I ask my hon. Friends to withdraw this Clause, but only on the definite and plain promise on the part of the Government that the spirit of the Clause is accepted, and that by administration or by other means the Government will secure that the Armed Forces of the Crown will only be used for their proper purposes, and will not in any sense be used against the workers in case of a trade dispute.

We ought, I think, to have a little more information as to the purpose for which troops may be used, because I notice that the Clause says that a soldier may not be called upon

"to perform, in consequence of a trade dispute, any civil or industrial duty customarily performed by a civilian in the course of his employment."

Does that mean that the Royal Engineers could not be sent to Lots Road, or some other great power station, in order to carry on the essential services of the country? It is perfectly clear that the object of this new Clause is not what the right hon. Gentleman thought, but in order to embarrass the Front Bench of the Government. [An HON. MEMBER: "Not a bit of it!"] I do not know whether the promoters of this Clause are going to be turned away from their purpose by the soft words used by the Secretary of State for War, but we would like to know exactly what the Clause means—whether, in the event of a trade dispute, another general strike, the military forces or naval ratings are to be prevented from making available the essential services to the community? The right hon. Gentleman was perfectly correct in saying that there could be nothing more distasteful to soldiers, sailors or airmen than to be used in trade disputes, but our Army really is not an offensive weapon. It is a defensive force for the Empire, and, surely, if it can be used for the purpose of law and order overseas, it ought to be used in the heart of the Empire at home. I agree with my right hon. Friend that you might have a situation where a small minority of people might get the upper hand of the civil force and not only cause damage to property but also loss of life. I think that in a case of emergency of that sort it is absolutely essential that the troops should be available. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will give an answer to the point I have raised, namely, whether they can be used to maintain essential services? The Clause on the Order Paper seems to me to make it impossible.

I must say that the reply given-by the Secretary of State for War leaves us in rather a difficult position. In the first place, he said that, as far as he was concerned, he could not accept the new Clause in the way it was worded. He went on to say that, in certain circumstances, it might be necessary to call out the troops for the protection of life and property in this country. He rightly said that in cases of difficulty it is not always the workers who cause the trouble. I quite agree that in some cases it is the onlookers who cause more trouble and annoyance. The statement of the right hon. Gentleman was most ambiguous as regards a strike or any trade dispute, or whatever may happen, and soldiers or naval ratings being required to carry on the necessary services of the country. It might be the industry to which my hon. and gallant Friend referred, or it might be a question of water, or gas, or any of these big undertakings. It has been recognised in the past that if naval ratings have been required, they have been utilised for certain specific purposes.

We do not want to aggrevate the position in any shape or form, but we do feel that the people of this country are justified in wanting to know whether, in certain circumstances, the troops are to be used if it is found advisable. Whatever the private opinion of the right hon. Gentleman may be, he is Secretary of State, and it is his duty to look after the State. [ Interruption. ] The right hon. Gentleman, I am sure, will appreciate the spirit in which I am putting this, and he will realise his duty in the position he holds. What does the right hon. Gentleman really mean by the statement he has made this afternoon? I put a plain question to him. In the unfortunate circumstance of some strike taking place, or an outbreak in connection with a trade dispute—I will bring it down to a trade dispute—in the event of there being a general strike, such as, unfortunately, we had in 1926, and the right hon. Gentleman finding it very difficult to cope with the circumstances with which he is faced, are the armed forces of the Crown, in a case of that dire necessity, to be used or not? That is a plain question.

Those of us who have had any military training know full well that the last thing a soldier or sailor wants is to be utilised for this purpose. I am not here to advocate the general use of the naval and military except in circumstances which require a strong hand. I make it perfectly plain. I do not want to have it tied down that in the event of such a necessity, troops cannot be used. I want the right hon. Gentleman, if he will be good enough, to make it perfectly plain to the House and to the country that we are to be fully protected in the future as we have been in the past, and although there may be circumstances which none of us want to see, and which we would all hate to think of, we do want to be assured by the right hon. Gentleman that, in the event of it being necessary—we trust that it will not be—in the future, as in the past, in these special circumstances, the armed forces of the Crown will be at the disposal of the people of this country.

Before the right hon. Gentleman answers, I want to put one specific question to him. Suppose there is not a Proclamation under the Act of 1920, that is to say, no general strike, but there is a local strike in the docks of London, and free labour is introduced there in order to carry on the national work. If the police who are guarding those docks are in danger of being overpowered, or are overpowered, will he, or will he not, use the military from the Tower to protect the free labourers?

It is just as well that the Committee should bear in mind exactly what it is that is at stake. The statement which has been made by the Secretary of State for War is quite a good and a provisional statement for the present state of our proceedings. While we think that this might be added to the existing law, nevertheless we recognise that the statement he has made is a step forward that has never yet been taken by any Minister in his position. While, naturally, one expects that there should be opposition from the Opposition, one would point out that the fundamental basis of the opposition is that, just as in the past there have always been industrial disputes, so in the future they are going to continue. Is it not yet possible for hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite to contemplate altering our existing state of affairs, so that there shall be no industrial disputes? Has it never occurred to them that if this House were to adopt its rightful attitude, and accept its rightful responsibility in regard to the industrial law governing the conditions of the workers of this country, there would be no need at any time for the calling in of the troops to quell any disorder arising out of an industrial dispute? The right course is for this House to say that, as far as it is concerned, there are going to be no industrial disputes in the future which would call for the use of troops.

The question we have to consider is whether, in an industrial dispute, the troops may be called in, or whether we shall declare that, so far as we who control those troops are concerned, we are not going to have them so used any longer, and that we are going to declare to the soldier who joins under the impression that he is to be used for war purposes only, and to all those who at present wear the uniform, that the duty for which they primarily joined the colours shall be the one and only duty for which they shall be liable in the future; that, outside Army work, they will not at any future time incur any responsibility, and if by any misunderstanding there should be a call for duty outside war duty, then those men will have full liberty to refuse to do it, without incurring any serious consequences to themselves. Everybody knows that behind those who object to this Clause is the desire that, no matter what circumstances may obtain in the industrial field, they shall still have at their disposal the use of the Army. Therefore, we are glad that the Minister of War has taken the stand which he has, and we hope that he will not yield to the blandishments of Members opposite, but will stand to his guns on this occasion.

I should not have intervened had it not been for the speech that has just been delivered. This question has been discussed in the House on many occasions, at great length. We are entitled to an explanation from the Secretary of State for War as to what exactly is the position. I am emboldened to make that request because of the speech just delivered. I would ask my right hon. Friend what is the step forward that has been taken? The hon. Member who has just spoken said that it was a step forward. What does that mean? Is the country to have the same security that it has had in the past, or is it not? Obviously, the speech of the Secretary of State for War, as interpreted by the hon. Members below the Gangway opposite, has made it clear in their minds that he has given quite a different interpretation of the position from that which has hitherto prevailed.

In view of the gravity of the situation we ought to have a specific answer from the right hon. Gentleman. What is this step forward? Has a step forward been taken, and, if so, what is the intention of the Government, and in what way will it affect the duties of the Government of this country?

The Committee is in some doubt as to what will be the pro- cedure which the Secretary of State proposes to put into the Army Act in place of the proposed Clause. From the speeches we have heard from below the Gangway opposite, we are all satisfied on this side that we shall not wish to put into the Army Act what those hon. Members appear to wish to see there. The simple position is this, that the Army is only used for the protection of the community, and we shall entirely destroy the discipline of the Army if it is thought that individuals can say whether or not they are to carry out orders. There may be something to be said in regard to individuals belonging to the Forces being employed in the place of men who are on strike, but there is nothing to be said against the protection of the community from the machinations of the minority movement and those who are out to upset ordered Government even by the trade unions themselves. I happened to be called out as a junior officer in aid of the civil power, and a more unpleasant task I have never had to engage in.

It is a monstrous thing to call out troops unless they are going to be used as troops. To see soldiers standing to be stoned by an unruly mob and not being able to do anything at all is useless from the point of view of maintaining discipline or protecting the community. The proposed Clause which, apparently, the Secretary of State thinks is sufficiently important to accept in principle, surely means that troops could not be used on any occasion whatsoever unless a state of emergency has been declared. Half the safeguards that we understood from the Attorney-General were implicit in the recent Trade Disputes Act would be useless unless we were able to protect light, power and water stations, which must be protected not against the strikers engaged in the dispute but against that section of the community who always likes fishing in troubled waters. It is against that element that you must be able to call out the troops, even if you have not put into force the Emergency Powers Act, 1920.

I hope that we shall have from the Secretary of State a plain statement whether, in the view of himself and his advisors, the community are to be in any worse position by what he has said and, secondly, what will be the occasion when this House can again consider the alternative words that he proposes to put into the Army Act. I am given to understand that it is only going to be an Administrative Order. That makes it entirely unsatisfactory, because if the right hon. Gentleman is willing to accept the principle of the Clause, it means that he is accepting something that the minority movement have been asking for, and something which is to the detriment of the community.

I hope that this time I shall be able with sufficient clarity to make the position clear. Apparently, I was not able to speak with clarity at the first attempt. I decline to say what I shall do in a set of circumstances which are purely supposititious. It is impossible to attempt to answer a number of hypothetical questions. I will try to make as plain a statement as I know how. The Government position is this, that the troops must not be used to interfere in trade disputes to the disadvantage of the workers and for the benefit of the employers. That is the one point that we shall try to make clear beyond peradventure. Having made that clear, I thought that I had made it crystal clear in my first speech that I could not accept the wording of the new Clause, because we must be able in case the police are overpowered, in case of danger to the public, in case of danger to life, to act more quickly than a Royal Proclamation would give us the chance of doing. I hope that I have made that abundantly clear.

With regard to a national emergency, that is not a matter for the Ministry of War as a single Ministry. A national emergency is a question for the Government as a whole. The proclamation will apply to every Government Department without exception, and the Ministry of War will have to act under that proclamation and under the direction of the Government just as every other Ministry will. I hope that is clear. First of all, the Army, as far as we can arrange it, will not be used against the workers and in favour of the employers in a trade dispute. Secondly, if there is danger to life or danger of destruction to works or other property, we must act in the ordinary way as every Government would have to act in defence of the population. Thirdly, in case of a national emergency, it is not a matter for me as an individual Minister but for the Government as a whole.

So that the position really remains as it is. Is there a step forward or is there not? My interpretation of the right hon. Gentleman's speech is, that the situation is exactly as it was. No one in this House would allow the troops to be used on one side or the other. [HON. MEMBERS: "They have been!"] I am merely stating my view, that in no circumstances would this House as a whole allow, and no Secretary of State for War would conceive it to be his duty to allow, troops to be used in a biased way either for the workers or for the employers. I gather that the new point that has arisen is merely in the case of a national emergency. I can understand that point, but I fail to see how the position just now interpreted to the Committee by the right hon. Gentleman is in any way different from the position which existed before.

I cannot be cross-examined in this fashion. I have made a definite and clear statement to the Committee, and the Committee can either accept it or reject it. I do not think the Minister should be asked over and over again questions that really have the same bearing. As to whether or not there has been an advance, that, apparently, is a matter of opinion. The right hon. Gentleman thinks that there is no difference, and my hon. Friends below the Gangway on this side think that there is a great difference, in the declaration that has been made. It is a matter of opinion. May I inform the right hon. Gentleman that there have been frequent complaints during the last 10 or 12 years that troops have been used unnecessarily and have been inflicted, so to speak, on the local authority. They have been sent without the request of the local authority. From Llanelly there was a definite complaint of that kind. I am going to make it again perfectly plain, that the Government will try its level best to see that there is no interference by armed troops on behalf of the employers in any trade dispute; that the Government will try to see, when the proper safety of the public is at stake, that order and safety is maintained, but when a national emergency occurs, the whole Government must answer, and not one Member of the Government.

I was Secretary of State of one of the Service Departments for six years, and therefore I have some claim to say a few words in answer to the Secretary of State for War. He has made two speeches. In the second speech he said that he would make his position absolutely clear. He stated three principles on which the Service Departments were going to act in the event of civil disturbance. With all those three principles every Member on this side of the Committee is in entire agreement. Looking back over the years during which I was connected with a Service Department, there never was a single occasion, so far as I know, when there was a serious suggestion made that we had not consistently acted in the spirit and in the letter of the principles which the right hon. Gentleman has just annunciated. He is trying to satisfy hon. Members below the Gangway opposite and to make it appear that he is adopting a new policy. He is wishing the Committee to infer that the principles that he has just stated are peculiarly the practice of a Socialist Government. Nothing of the kind. It has never been suggested that the forces of the Crown should be used in the interests of one class more than in the interests of the whole community. Upon the assumption that there are no changes to be made and that he is going to act on the three principles that he has described, I think we can leave the matter as it is. The right hon. Gentleman has refused to accept the new Clause, and he has stated three principles which are accepted by all quarters of the House. We can leave the thing as it is, in the certainty that the conduct of the three Services in the event of civil disturbances in the future will be exactly what it has been in the past.

I just want to reply to the point made by the right hon. Member for Ross and Cromarty (Mr. Macpherson) as to whether this is a step forward or whether it is the status quo. The kind of action which we have in mind is the kind of action for which the Liberal Government was responsible in the year 1912, when there was a strike on the railways. The right hon. Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) who was then Home Secretary on the morning the strike was declared mobilised the troops without any communication with the local authorities concerned and occupied the stations and railways. No Member of this House would regard that kind of action as an action which was not against the workers who were on strike, and it is that kind of action which we desire to prevent. We believe that the statement of the Secretary of State for War is a step forward to meet that situation. We welcome it. I can assure him that our desire is not to embarrass the Government but to strengthen them, and, therefore, I beg leave to withdraw the new Clause.

The hon. Member who moved the new Clause had a definite object in view, and he made it perfectly clear. He desires an amendment of the Army Act which will include these words:

"The general conditions of the contract to be entered into shall include a stipulation that the recruit shall not be liable, nor shall it be lawful in pursuance of this Act to call upon such recruit, to take duty in aid of the civil power in connection with a trade dispute."

Clearly the position is this. Troops cannot be used lawfully, and never have been used, in this country in the case of a strike unless the civil power has asked for the use of them. [ Interruption. ] I will take the instance mentioned by the hon. Member for Leyton (Mr. Brockway), of 1912. I am not arguing whether the action of the then Home Secretary was right or wrong. The Home Secretary, if he represents anything at all, represents the civil power; he is not the Secretary of State for War.

I was living in Manchester at that time, and the point I wish to make is this, that the action was taken by the Government without any communication with the local civic authorities. The Mayor of Manchester and the Corporation of Manchester woke up one morning to find the troops in occupation of all the railway centres without any warning having been given.

That may be so, and I am pointing out the actual situation. The Home Secretary is the Minister responsible as the civil power under the terms of the Army Act. You may quarrel with the exercise of those powers. The person responsible for the military authorities is the Secretary of State for War, and he cannot use troops in any domestic strike in this country on his own initiative. An application must be made by the Home Secretary, who is the person responsible, [ Interruption. ] You may criticise as to whether the Home Secretary exercises this power rightly or wrongly, and that is a perfectly legitimate criticism of the action in 1912, but I am not dealing with that. No one will deny that it was an exercise of the civil power in 1912. What is the position created by the hon. Member for East Leyton under this new Clause? It would mean that the civil power would no longer be responsible, he casts the responsibility on the Secretary of State for War. That is the effect of his proposal, and I am not surprised that the Secretary of State for War has rejected it.

The right hon. Gentleman says that he accepts it in principle, but that is saying nothing. Suppose the situation arises, having accepted this new Clause, where the present Home Secretary deems that such a situation has arisen that the use of the military is necessary, unless the Home Secretary in this Government comes to that conclusion there is no alteration; but if the Home Secretary comes to the conclusion that the use of the military is necessary what is the Secretary of State for War going to do? Is he going to refuse the request of his own Home Secretary? If the new Clause is accepted the Home Secretary would have no power to put the question at all. That would be an alteration of the Army Act, and that is what hon. Members opposite want. Unless they want to do that they want to do nothing at all. But the proposal has been rejected by the Secretary of State for War, and, therefore, there is in fact no acceptance of the principle of the new Clause.

It is idle for the right hon. Gentleman to say that it is accepted in principle when he maintains the position that the Home Secretary can still request him to use troops in the case of a dispute. If the Home Secretary made such a request to the right hon. Gentleman and it was refused we should have the resignation of the Home Secretary, and probably the fall of the Government. But if the Secretary of State for War acceded to the appeal of the Home Secretary, what becomes of the principle of this new Clause? There has been no acceptance of the principle, and it is no good the right hon. Gentleman trying to palm off his supporters by pretending that he has accepted something which he has not really accepted. Unless he is prepared to accept an amendment of the Army Act, which he deliberately rejects, the civil power will remain as hitherto in the hands of the Home Secretary.

The Committee appreciates the fact that the Secretary of State for War has done his best to make his statement crystal clear, but, in spite of his coyness to answer specific questions, I hope he will take notice of one omission from his statement. He took the point of the preservation of law and order and the prevention of damage to property in any riots which may take place, but he did not include the preservation of the essential services of the country. This is not a hypothetical question, and I hope he will see his way to answer it, because he knows that, although it may not be necessary to issue a Proclamation of a state of emergency, yet it is still necessary that the essential services of the State should be kept going. Does he mean that not only are law and order to be preserved, if necessary by the troops, but that the essential services are to be maintained and run by whatever means are necessary and at the disposal of the Government in the interests of the community. I hope he will answer the question, which is put to him in all sincerity.

The hon. Member for Cardigan (Mr. Morris) must be aware that there is the collective responsibility of Ministers, and that when the Secretary of State for War says that he accepts the principle of the Amendment he is speaking for his Government.

He is speaking for his Government, and, therefore, he is speaking for the Home Secretary in the Government. Consequently, we who are responsible for the new Clause think that there is a different spirit behind the policy of the Government. The right hon. Gentleman has accepted the principle of the new Clause, and it may fructify later on in an amendment of the Army and Air Force (Annual) Act.

I should like to say one word about this matter, and it is this. The first two or three speeches have been passed in silence, but a continuance of the kind of speech which we have just had from the hon. Member for Camlachie (Mr. Stephen) turns the whole of this Debate into humbug. The situation is this, that hon. Members opposite for many years have been putting this and similar Amendments on the Order Paper and have made passionate speeches in favour of them on thousands of platforms. The Secretary of State for War gets up and makes a statement. The right hon. Gentleman knows quite well that he is not speaking for the First Lord of the Admiralty that naval ratings will not be used in line with the principles he has enunciated, or for the Under-Secretary of State for Air. It is a striking comment upon the easy way in which hon. Members opposite, who I have heard described as the dependent Labour party, are satisfied in these degenerate days. [ Interruption. ]

The Secretary of State for War has told us that he has made every endeavour to make his position clear. [ Interruption. ] In his opening speech he said—

It is a little difficult for me to listen to two speeches at one time. Allow the hon. Member to proceed without interruption.

In his opening speech he told us that he intended to give expression to the principle contained in the new Clause by administrative or other methods. We have heard from the hon. Member for Cardigan (Mr. Morris) a clear statement as to whether the Secretary of State has, or has not, made a move forward, and I think the hon. Member for Cardigan proved conclusively that in rejecting the proposal the right hon. Gentleman has not made a move forward. In that case what did the right hon. Gentleman mean when he said that he intended to give effect to the principle of the new Clause by ad- ministrative or other methods? He has not made this clear, and I think we are entitled to know what he has in mind. Is he going to issue an Army instruction dealing with this point? Is he going to make any move at all, or is he going to let the matter rest where it is now? I invite him to say what it is that he contemplates. The Committee is entitled to a clear answer to the question as to what he meant when he said that he intended to give effect to the principle of the new Clause by administrative or other methods.

The hon. Member for Camlachie (Mr. Stephen) indicated the reason why he thought the acceptance in principle of the new Cause was a definite step forward. He considered that the Secretary of State for War was really speaking the general opinion of the Government and the general policy they were going to pursue. I want to know whether that means that the interpretation of the hon. Member for Cardigan (Mr. Morris), in which he made it clear that the troops cannot be used except on the requisition of the civil authority, and that the Home Secretary represents the civil authority is right. Does it mean that as long as the present Government are in power the Home Secretary will never call upon the Secretary for War to employ troops in any circumstances? We are entitled to know whether the Secretary of State has been enunciating a new principle of policy for the Government. If so there are very definite changes taking place. Although it may be true, as has been said, that it is hard to believe that the Secretary of State is committing all the other members of the Cabinet, including the First Lord of the Admiralty and the Secretary of State for Air, we are entitled to know whether they are committed. Either the words of the Secretary for War mean something or they mean nothing. We say that they mean one thing. The hon. Member for Camlachie thinks that they mean another and exactly an opposite thing. Surely the Secretary for War can tell us which is the right interpretation of a very cryptic utterance. Both interpretations cannot be true.

Question, "That the Clause be read a Second time," put, and negatived.

First Schedule ( Prices in respect of Billeting ) agreed to.

Second Schedule ( Amendments of Army Act, s. 91 and 130) agreed to.

Preamble agreed to.

Bill reported, without Amendment; read the Third time, and passed.

Public Offices (Sites) Amendment Bill

Order for Second Reading read.

I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."

This Bill is quite a small one, but nevertheless it is an important one. At the outset it is necessary to tell the House that the Bill confers no more powers regarding the expenditure of public money on buildings than the Government at present possess with the consent of the House. It is obvious that in any scheme for erecting buildings on these sites sanction would have to be obtained beforehand for the provision of the necessary funds; but this Bill has nothing in it which in any way commits the House to anything in the way of expenditure which the House has not already conferred on the Treasury and the Office of Works by previous Acts. The situation to-day is different from what it was in 1912, on the one side in relation to the rates of interest that should be charged for the use of the land to the Office of Works by Crown Lands, who are in the position of landlord of this estate or this area. But in that case it is a question of one Government Department paying money to another. Whether the rate of interest is 3½ or 4½ per cent. it is not paid out in the ordinary way. The Estimates of the Office of Works would be debited and the Estimates of the Minister of Agriculture would be credited. I take it, therefore, that there will not be very much discussion on that side of the question.

The question that is under discussion now is the vital one whether the restriction placed in 1912 on a portion of the area shall remain. It is necessary for the House to understand that there is only one part of this area to which the restriction refers, and that is the Whitehall Gardens end, which, I think, is the northern end of the whole area. The Montagu House site, which is a very considerable portion of the land involved, was purchased during the War. In 1912 it was occupied by the Duke of Buccleuch, to whom it belonged. It was acquired for the purposes of the War mainly, and has been occupied ever since. It is being used at present by the Office of Works for the housing of a considerable number of people under not very good conditions. The House should keep in mind these facts. At one end of the estate the building line is quite unrestricted.

Do I understand that the Government, if they wish, can build right up to the Embankment so far as Montagu House is concerned?

There is no question about that at all. On the Montagu House site there is no restriction at all. It does not come into the 1912 Act at all. If there is any further question about it I would like to answer it now. The site was not in the possession of the Government at that time and there was no question of it conning into the possession of the Government. It came into use only because of the War, which was not even contemplated in 1912.

The right hon. Gentleman will be aware that the view is very strongly held that the settlement arrived at in 1912 was considered to apply to the whole building line of that area, and that the consent that was then given was considered to be given on condition that the line should apply to any rebuilding on the Montagu House area. I have with me the reports of the proceedings in this House when that stipulation was laid down and that condition was held to have been reached.

Really we must not have something that was merely "held." The Act of Parliament is explicit. It is on the Act that I am taking my stand, and not on any understanding. The Duke of Buccleuch was in occupation of Montagu House and he was called into consultation about the building line. Before the line could be altered or it was possible to deal with his private property another Act would have had to be passed by this House. About that there cannot be any question whatever. The London County Council and ourselves would have 5.0 p.m

had no power over that portion of the area unless we came to this House and fixed a building line in continuity of the one in the 1912 Act. That being the case, I do not propose to argue any more on that except to say—I think I can speak for any First Commissioner, and I want to press that point—that I see quite clearly that we could not very well have a joggle out on to the Embankment, which would be something too ugly and hideous for anyone to contemplate. If the building line is not brought forward the position is that you take away from the value of that site as a building site something like one-third. The House can do that if it chooses and throw the land in as a public park. Speaking for myself, I am in favour of public parks everywhere, but I am bound to say that, with the Embankment and the very large amount of open space on the Embankment, there are other parts of London that need spaces clearing far more for the children and people to get recreation.

It is very important that the House should face the fact that if this restriction is imposed upon us in regard to the Montagu House site, in addition to the restriction already placed on the Whitehall Gardens site, we are robbed of a third part of our building area. I understand that the London County Council and the City Council of Westminster are both objecting to this Bill. I am extremely sorry that they should do so, because, as a matter of fact, at the beginning of the discussion I had a consultation in this House with representatives of the London County Council, and afterwards received a letter telling me that they were agreeable to what we were going to do. That is something which I think the House ought to know. Then a few weeks later, I was informed that they had changed their mind, and were going to oppose. That is the position, so far as I am concerned, of the London County Council in this matter. With regard to the Westminster City Council, they take the view that not only must the building line on the Embankment be restricted, but that we must also maintain the gardens in front of Montagu House on the Whitehall side. The county council disagree with that, but it happens that the Westminster Council has as much right to an opinion on this subject as the county council, because it is the local authority of the area within which this land is situated.

The situation that we have to face, and if the Bill gets a Second Reading that the Committee will have to face, is that the superior local authority, the London County Council, want one area restricted and the Westminster City Council, after first agreeing to the building line on the Embankment being taken forward, have now joined the county council in demanding the restriction on the Embankment, but also demand a restriction on the Whitehall side. It is for the House to decide. We are living in spacious days, when money is no object, and apparently some Members of the House who vote for economy one day are quite willing that this area of land shall be written down, as it were, in value and the Government be put to the expense of providing elsewhere for a large number of people who need accommodation.

If I have made my position clear as to what we want to do, I should like to say this further, so far as the building line on the Embankment is concerned: The Department and myself personally are very strongly of opinion that if we have to choose—and, in our judgment, it is a question of choice between the two—whether the open space shall be on the Embankment or on Whitehall, we are definitely in favour of its being on Whitehall. We think that it is much better that there should be a resting place in that great street, first for the multitude of visitors that come from all over the country and who go down Whitehall to see the Guards, and look at Ministers occasionally; but I quite seriously put to the House the fact that there is a continual pilgrimage of all sorts of people to the Cenotaph, and I think it is rather disgraceful that we have not a seat somewhere along there where the old people can have a rest. There is nothing at all, but if, when these buildings are up and the present temporary buildings are cleared away, there could be these gardens, open all the year round, I think they would be a real haven of rest for many of the travellers who come along there to the Cenotaph.

That is the position in which the Department finds itself with regard to the site, except this: Parliament—I think it is done by Parliament or else by the King—appointed some time ago a Royal Fine Art Commission to advise the Government on such questions as this building line, and in this matter I would like the House, and especially hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite, to bear in mind the fact that the question of the building line was raised by my predecessor, and the advice of the Royal Fine Art Commission was asked for in regard to it. This Commission has reported quite definitely in favour of reserving the spaces on Whitehall and advancing the building line on the Embankment. I hope that hon. and right hon. Members who are interested have read the report of the Royal Fine Art Commission. I am not claiming that the Commission have the final voice in the matter, but they are the authority to advise the Government on these matters, and they have quite definitely laid it down that, from an architectural point of view, setting the line back is not correct.

They say that we ought to take the line from Scotland Yard down to the corner of Horseguards Avenue, parallel with the river wall. I think I might be allowed to read some part of this report to the House. It is dated 25th March, 1929, and I repeat that I did not put the case to the Royal Fine Art Commission, but that it was put by my predecessor. Here is what they say: mission simply to get their view and to get it without any regard to utility or expediency. They have decided it from the architectural point of view, as to what will best meet what are described as the amenities of the Embankment. I repeat what I said at the beginning, that nothing in this Bill gives the Government any power to spend a single penny and confers no powers on them in regard to the restricted site that they do not already possess. All that it does is to give them a free site to deal with instead of a restricted site—I mean to deal with in the sense of bringing up recommendations to this House.

Why is it that we have to build again? That, of course, means, Why do we need this area at all? It would be oat of order to discuss whether or not the offices created were necessary—that has nothing to do with the matter, because Parliament in its wisdom has done this—but since 1912 the Air Ministry has been created, and it has a staff of 1,720 persons to be housed; the Board of Control, 102; the Cabinet Office, 101; the new Dominions Office, just created, has only 237—I have no doubt that as the days pass that will be increased; I do not think any section in the House, if there is any blame, is free from it, because everybody votes for these Departments—the Ministry of Health, 4,000; the Ministry of Labour, 4,800—and that last figure includes taking over from the Board of Trade the Employment Exchanges, and includes the Industrial Court and the office of the Umpire.

Does the Ministry of Health include what was formerly the Local Government Board?

It includes the old Local Government Board, and the National Health Insurance Commissioners—the people within the administration of the Ministry of Health. There are 4,000 persons. To put it in another way, it includes those for whom the Minister of Health has to answer in this House. Then there is the National Savings Committee—and I think we are all agreed about that—which represents 203, and there is also the Mines Department, 266. What I am endeavouring to point out now is the approximate number of headquarter staffs of Departments created since 1912. I know what is in the Noble Lord's mind. It is that parts of these staffs were in existence before, but everyone will agree that the Ministry of Labour, for instance, was not in existence, and it accounts for 4,800, and it will also be agreed that the Ministry of Health has had very extensive duties added to it. The number of additional services, since the Local Government Board was created the Ministry of Health, is very considerable indeed. To continue with this list there is the Department of Overseas Trade, 498; the Ministry of Pensions, 2,935; the Ministry of Transport, 624; the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, 100; and State Management Districts, 110. Then I think it is also interesting to show the increases from 1914 to 1931, and these figures will perhaps be considered more to the point. In that period the Admiralty has increased from 2,072 to 3,429; the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries from 559 to 955; Customs and Excise from 750 to 1,813; the Inland Revenue from 2,457 to 3,549. [HON. MEMBERS: "Where are they now?"] I will tell hon. Members that in a moment.

The hon. Member may know all about this, but I have to give the reasons why we have to build and everybody may not be as wise as the hon. Member.

I do not want the right hon. Gentleman to misunderstand me, but surely the relevant figures and the figures of vital interest to the House now are those showing which of the Departments in this long list the right hon. Gentleman proposes to house in the new building.

If the hon. Member will allow me to make my speech in my own way he will perhaps discover all he wants to know before I have finished. I have to make out a case to show why this area is needed for Government buildings and it is very important that the House should know what new departments have been created and what expansions have taken place in old departments and if the hon. Member knows all that, he should remember that there may be other people who do not know all about it.

I was only struck by the figures of the Inland Revenue Department and I was wondering if the right hon. Gentleman meant to move them from Somerset House.

I only want to point out that we have to house a good many Inland Revenue people outside Somerset House—a very considerable number. To resume the figures of increases which I was giving, the Land Registry has increased from 238 to 545; the Foreign Office, including the Passport Office from 187 to 726; the Stationery Office from 454 to 839; the Treasury from 134 to 370; the War Office from 1,366 to 1,883 and the Office of Works from 553 to 1,370. The hon. Member was anxious and I expect the House is anxious to know whether all these people are housed. The reply is that they are housed all over the place. I think the hon. Member for Fulham (Sir C. Cobb) was a member of the London County Council during my short period of membership of that body, when we had very long discussions about the new buildings on the other side of the river. When I came to the Office of Works I was struck with the fact that the conditions which prevailed with regard to Government Offices were very similar to those conditions which we seemed to be discussing eternally at the London County Council before we finally settled on the building of the new offices. We have premises all over this part of London. There is Adastral House, Kings-way, Alexandra House, Kingsway, Gwydyr House and annexe and there are also offices in Catherine Street; Clement's Inn; Cornwall Gardens, Cromwell House, North Audley Street; Old Bailey; Old Queen Street; Parliament Street; Queen Anne Chambers; Sanctuary Buildings; Savoy Court; Princes Street; Victoria Street and Whitehall Gardens.

Coming to an analysis of the needs of each of the Departments I am sorry that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Chelsea (Sir S. Hoare) is not in his place because during the whole of his term of office at the Air Ministry he worried his Cabinet for accommodation for the Air Ministry and with very good reason. Part of the staff is in Adastral House, part in Alexandra House, part in Clement's Inn, part in Gwydyr House annexe, and then there is the Meteoro- logical Office. The Ministry of Labour is housed in Montagu House, in two sets of bungalows, in Queen Anne Chambers, in Richmond Terrace and in Whitehall Gardens. The Board of Trade have some offices in the same building as the Office of Works but the Mines. Department is in Cromwell House, the Overseas Trade Department in Queen Anne's Gate building and another Department is in Sanctuary Building. The Ministry of Transport is in 3–10, Whitehall Gardens and in Victoria Street and the Electricity Commissioners are in Savoy Court. The Ministry of Agriculture is in 10, Whitehall Place, in 5 to 8a, Whitehall Place, in 7 to 11, Old Bailey, in 43 and 44, Parliament Street, and in 8, Buckingham Gate. The Cabinet Offices are at 2 to 4, Whitehall Gardens, and the Dominion Office staffs are part in Downing Street, part in Richmond Terrace, part in Victoria Street, part in Sanctuary Buildings, and there is also an office at 28, Abingdon Street, and the Stationery Office, as I have mentioned, is in Princes Street.

Anyone taking note of these figures must agree that to have these Departments scattered about in that fashion must mean inefficiency and waste—waste of time and waste of every kind. That fact has been brought home not merely to this Government but to the preceding Government and has been the subject of discussion for a considerable time. Now it is proposed that we should build on this site to accommodate a certain number, though not all, of these Departments because there are some buildings left where the others can be accommodated. It is proposed that the Air Ministry, the Ministry of Labour, the Board of Trade, the Ministry of Transport, the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries, the Cabinet Offices, the Dominion Office, and the Stationery Office should be housed in the new building. I think that will represent nearly 7,000 persons. It is necessary that we should have the whole of the area in order to be able to house that number of people.

Does that figure represent the whole of the staffs of these Departments?

Yes, the whole of the headquarters staffs. What we are aiming at is to bring the whole of the staffs of each of the Departments I have named under one roof so that they can carry on their work more efficiently than is possible under present conditions.

Can the right hon. Gentleman give us a rough idea of what rentage this represents?

I presume the hon. Member means the rents which we are paying. I will give him that figure in a few moments. This change is needed first because of the inefficiency which is caused by scattered staffs and, secondly, because of the grossly unsatisfactory conditions under which many of the staffs are working. I have already received two deputations on the subject. When the Noble Lord the Member for Hastings (Lord E. Percy) was President of the Board of Education I think he must have had brought to his notice the condition of the library of the Board of Education. It is down in the basement and anyone who works there must work by artificial light. Some other places—one office especially—have been vermin-ridden which would not have happened, I am confident, if those places had been open to light and air. Throughout the Whitehall area at present, considerable numbers of staff are working in basements which were never intended for the purpose of accommodating staffs at all. They were built for the purpose of storage, and people who work in them are able to work for only a certain length of time; they are not able to work continuously without a change, because of the bad air and the fact that they have to work by artificial light. This cannot be dealt with unless we have the power to build somewhere.

I was asked about the cost. We reckon that we shall save the rent that is being paid for the accommodation that we now hold; where we are in occupation of Crown freehold property, we are taking the annual value, and we reckon that that is £158,000 per year. We reckon that on the entire cost of these buildings, we shall save annually somewhere about £40,000. Although it is true that money paid to the Crown Lands is money from one pocket to the other, we ought to take it into account, and, on the face of the figures, it would appear that, taking the rental value of the freehold and the interest on the money spent on the new buildings, on balance we might be £10,000 or £15,000 out. No one, however, can really make a very definite estimate, because if the prices of materials continue to drop as they have dropped in the last two or three years, we might get an infinitely cheaper building than we should expect to get if we built now. The balance is so small that it is hardly worth much consideration.

That is the case I want to put to the House. I have not come to ask for any money, or any sanction for building. I have come to ask for the removal of a restriction on the area, so that plans may be prepared to deal with the situation that I have described. Then it will be for the House to decide whether the buildings shall go on. Without any doubt no building can start for at least 18 months, because, supposing we get the restrictions removed, there is the whole question of appointing an architect, which, in these days, is almost as difficult as getting to heaven. Then there will be the preparation of the plans, and so on, and finally we shall have to come to the House for permission to do the job. If we get the Second Reading, we propose to ask the House to refer the Bill to a Committee of both Houses before which the London County Council, the Westminster City Council and any other interested parties will be able to appear. I think that our case is unanswerable. Of course, it may be proved before the Committee that we are wrong, but I would beg the House to remember that the present conditions of Government offices and Government accommodation are such that I do not believe any big firm would tolerate them for a moment. Because of that, and because my predecessors agree with me, I feel sure that the House will give a unanimous Second Reading to the Bill.

I beg to move, to leave out the word "now." and, at the end of the Question, to add the words, "upon this day six months."

The right hon. Gentleman has stated his case very fairly, and we certainly have no quarrel with his manner of stating it. We recognise in him one who, whatever our other differences with him may be, has really the interests and the appearance of London at heart. I was a little nervous when his speech began that he was going to ride off on the statement that this Bill did not in- volve any actual building, that he would have to come to the House for money when building started, and that we were not concerned with the building that was to be put up. He went on to give us, however, full and frank information about the building he proposes. This Bill is a Measure primarily to vest certain lands in the Government, in order that building may commence; therefore, we have to consider at this moment the whole policy of building these great new offices.

The Noble Lord is wrong. The lands are already vested in the Government. The whole of the site is the property of the Crown, and the original Act gives us power to go to the Crown Lands and buy them whenever we are in a position to do so. It must be understood that we are not asking for any power to have any more land vested. We have power under the 1912 Act to go to the Crown Lands when we are ready, and buy. The only point is the line on the Embankment, and nothing else.

May I draw attention to the words in the Bill:

"And whereas the southern lands were vested in the Commissioners in the year nineteen hundred and fifteen, but the northern lands have not yet been so vested:

And whereas it is intended that the steps necessary under the principal Act for vesting the northern lands in the Commissioners shall be taken at an early date."

That is only in the Preamble, which says what we are going to do. The three operative Clauses contain nothing at all on that point and do not say what we may or may not do, because we have the power to do it. We are only saying that we are going to exercise our power.

The right hon. Gentleman did not allow me to finish my sentence. I was about to say that an Act of Parliament is not needed in order that these lands may be vested in the Commissioners, but the right hon. Gentleman is coming to the House to say that vesting is not enough, and that he must, for the purpose of his plan, have further power to alter the building line, so that he can build on a larger area than he can take under his present powers. Therefore, the whole question of this building policy comes up. I do not propose to enter on the pure question of the building line on its town planning and architectural merits. I will leave that to hon. Friends behind me. I will just say this on that subject. Whatever the differences between the right hon. Gentleman and me, we both share the tendency to heretical opinions. The subject on which I have such an opinion is town planning. I have never been able to see that you can hope for any great constructive work of town planning from elected assemblies, whether they be Parliament or local authorities. The right hon. Gentleman who is being ground between the upper and nether mill stones of the London County Council, the Westminster City Council and the House of Commons, feels that very acutely, and we may regard this Bill and this discussion as a solemn warning not to hope very much from that Housing and Town Planning Bill, which we are to discuss in a few days, and which proposes simply to make new combinations and permutations of local authorities, and expects to get out of that some real town planning policy—which it will not. That is my heresy, and I wanted to say it.

Let us come to the really important question of this policy of building an enormous, mighty, bulky building to take the staffs of the Air Ministry, the Ministry of Labour, the Board of Trade and one or two other Departments—a curious combination of Departments. The right hon. Gentleman has told us that that may involve, after taking into account savings of rent and so on, a cost to the country of from £10,000 to £15,000 a year. He said, however, that it is impossible to make an accurate estimate, because if building becomes much cheaper, we shall be able to construct the new building more cheaply. If building becomes much cheaper, however, rent will also eventually come down, and I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman can pray that in aid. Quite clearly, the less building that we have to do, the bigger the saving will be, and the more economy there will be. The right hon. Gentleman seems to assume that if we restricted the building line so that he could not house the full number of 7,000, we should prevent him from saving the Government money, and he said that we, on this side, would be the extravagant party if we did not allow him to build up to the full building line, and to have a very large building.

He has not given us any figures to show that he would not make a bigger saving if he were able to do with a smaller building, and were not obliged to move such large staffs. I ask the House to consider the figures which the right hon. Gentleman gave showing the great growth in Government staffs as compared with before the War. They were terrible figures. The right hon. Gentleman said that whoever was responsible for them he was not, and I agree that that is so, but he appears to regard them as part of the law of the Medes and Persians, as something which can never be altered. As a matter of fact, our efforts, which have not been entirely unsuccessful, have in the last few years been concentrated upon reducing staffs. He gave one instance of a saving of 230, but he did not take into account that the staff of the Board of Education has been reduced by about 500 since 1924. We have been trying to reduce staffs. No one intended, when the Colonial Office and the Dominions Office were divided, that each of them should grow into a still fuller-fledged Department than the old combined Department. We know the tendency of Departments to grow and swell the moment they get "on the loose," as it were, and the truth is, as the right hon. Gentleman well knows, that when he provides more commodious accommodation at Montagu House they will grow and burgeon even quicker. It sounds terrible to say that the inadequacy of Government accommodation is some restriction on the ambition of Ministers to expand their staffs, but I am afraid it is perfectly true.

That is the first point I wish to put before the House, that we ought to be reducing these staffs. There really is no reason for the continual increase. The Ministry of Health and the Board of Education have been engaged ever since the War on a deliberate policy of devolution to local authorities, and that process ought to be accompanied by a reduction of their own staffs. I found when I was at the Board of Education that there was no difficulty whatever in considerably reducing staffs; and, while it may be a gradual process, I am firmly convinced that any sound administration will, by steady work but without a flourish of trumpets, reduce the staffs of Government Departments progressively over the next five or 10 years. I wish the right hon. Gentleman had not given the House the impression that he, at any rate, and the Government of which he is a member, rule out all possibility of reduction in these staffs. He gave the House that impression, though I daresay it was unintentional. It will be a slow process of administrative attrition, but there is another process which ought not to be slow.

Here, again, I may be heretical, and I am speaking entirely for myself, but I am convinced that we shall not get efficient administration and prevent that wastage and inefficiency which the right hon. Gentleman attributed to the geographical distribution of staffs amongst various cubby holes in Tothill Street and round about the purlieus of Whitehall until we reorganise the whole machinery of Government administration. We cannot suppose that for all time the Ministry of Labour and the Board of Trade will be separate entities. We cannot suppose that the Department which is supposed to be dealing with the industries of this country must be split up into two separate sections, and more than two. To suggest that the present division of Departments is the permanent organisation of Government is to show an extraordinary blindness to what most people up and down the country and in this House are thinking on the subject of reorganisation. To stereotype that kind of swollen and illogically-organised Administration in a great new building specially built for all these separate Departments is to commit the worst form of extravagance, which consists in not foreseeing developments during the next few years.

Again I would ask, because it does not seem to have occurred to the right hon. Gentleman, why should he house all Government Departments indiscriminately in the most expensive part of London? I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman is aware of what is said among civil servants about certain offices. The civil servant who is being adjured to economise year by year is inclined to say that all Departments appear to economise occasionally except the Treasury. I do not know whether that is on account of the lingering influence of the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), but that is a common gibe about the Treasury. Another favourite gibe at the right hon. Gentleman's own Department is that they always get the best accommodation for themselves. When a great new office building was put up, the Office of Works, which is not, perhaps, one of the most vitally important Departments, was prompt to house itself in by far the best section, taking palatial rooms overlooking St. James's Park.

Oh, no. I only criticise the right hon. Gentleman in a minor way for resting content with the palatial quarters in which he finds himself. There is no reason why the Office of Works should be in Whitehall. It is the estate agent, mainly, of the Government, and the estates which it looks after are not concentrated in Whitehall. The Royal Palaces are not exclusively centred in that neighbourhood. Why should not the Office of Works go to less expensive parts of London?

The reason given for keeping Government Departments in Whitehall is that the Ministerial heads of Departments are supposed to be constantly consulting one another—I do not know whether they do or not—and ought to be in the immediate neighbourhood of the House of Commons, but, after all, the number of times when the First Commissioner of Works has to consult with his colleagues on matters of policy is not very great. To a certain extent he is a technical officer, and he ought to be increasingly regarded as such. From no point of view is there any need for the Office of Works to take up expensive accommodation in the centre of London. If my suggestion were adopted, it would be easy to house the whole of the Board of Trade in the building where the headquarters of the Board of Trade are at the moment, and it would be possible greatly to improve the conditions at the Board of Education, of which the right hon. Gentleman spoke, especially as the reduction of staffs there will go on, I believe, for the next few years. The staff there now is considerably less than it was before the War. It is true that the library of the Board of Education is in the basement and is lighted entirely by artificial light, but I do a considerable amount of work there at the present moment, and I do not find that the conditions are too intolerable. However, I will not put too much emphasis on that. No doubt it is desirable that the chief educational library in the centre of London should be better housed, but is this a moment to embark on extra expenditure? Because, after all, it is purely a question of dignity and of amenities, or almost entirely so. There is no pressing need for that improvement.

As the right hon. Gentleman has said, all Ministers in all Governments always press for a number of little improvements every year, and it is the chief business of the First Commissioner of Works to turn them down repeatedly, just as the Chancellor of the Exchequer turns down suggestions which involve extra expenditure. All these little things lumped together are responsible for a very large part of this mighty, bulky building in which the right hon. Gentleman proposes to house no fewer than 7,000 people. If he were to come to the House saying, "We cannot leave the Air Ministry in Adastral House, and must find other accommodation for them," the House would have the very greatest sympathy with him, because that is a permanent Department of Government which is not extravagantly staffed, but when he starts to collect all the grievances of the Government service over the last 10 years or more, and to pile them up until he has made a case for this great migration of Government staffs, for the removal of the Board of Trade, for instance, from all contaminating proximity to the right hon. Gentleman himself in his palatial residence, he cannot expect the House of Commons to have any sympathy for him While the geographical distribution of Government offices does make for a certain amount of waste, we shall not get rid of waste by, for example, bringing the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research out of Tothill Street, or wherever it is, on the ground that its office accommodation is inadequate judged by modern standards. So is the office accommodation of nine-tenths of the offices in the City of London. The Department does its work well where it is, and it is not so dependent upon any other Government Department that its geographical isolation causes very serious waste.

The whole of this project is characterised by all the features which invariably mark an extravagant proposal. It has a kernel of sound sense, reason and necessity, as represented by the needs of the Air Ministry and one or two other Departments, but because a new building has to be provided for the Air Ministry, why should the right hon. Gentleman seize on the opportunity to say, "Here is an opportunity to build a really big building, and to get rid of all the grievances, major and minor which are going about Whitehall? Let us get the biggest site we possibly can, push the building line as far forward as we can, erect as big a building as we can, and set the Government staffs, which have grown so tremendously since the War, on a new career of comfort and, therefore, of further expansion?

Lord Londonderry may have sketched out a scheme, but it was not adopted. I am not blaming the right hon. Gentleman for having set his Department to work on plans to see whether this proposal could be carried out, but I am blaming him for coming to the House of Commons at the present time, when the Chancellor of the Exchequer has told us that the most desperate economies are necessary, and proposing something which, while it has a kernal of sound reason, has been used as an excuse for putting forward a much more grandiose policy than is justified economically, on grounds of efficiency, or on any grounds at all. I wish the present Government, and, indeed, all Governments, instead of thinking how existing staffs in the existing organisation of Government can be enshrined in great, dignified buildings, would turn their attention towards the organisation of Government as well as to a steady intensive reduction of staffs. Then they should plan what extra accommodation is immediately needed on that basis and, so far as possible, provide that extra accommodation by a drastic policy of removing to cheaper sites those Government Departments whose presence in Whitehall is a matter of tradition, but not of utility. Although as I have said the right hon. Gentleman is often heretical, broadly speaking, he is a creature of tradition, and he is free to break away from those traditions. It is on these grounds, and not on any grounds as to the merits that I move the rejection of this Measure. May I, in conclusion, put one question to the right hon. Gentleman? In his opinion, is the best place to have an open space on the Embankment or in Whitehall?

I know the right hon. Gentleman has expressed the opinion very strongly that the best place would be in Whitehall. Do we understand that the First Commissioner is prepared to accept an Amendment to this Bill to the effect that, in return for the alteration of the building line, an equivalent open space will be provided in Whitehall? I put that question to the right hon. Gentleman, and I hope that he will be able to give me an answer.

The First Commissioner of Works has tried to draw an analogy between the position of the London County Council and the Office of Works, but I do not think that that analogy holds good. I am not dealing with that question. The whole question of accommodation has been adequately dealt with by the Noble Lord the Member for Hastings (Lord E. Percy), and it is not necessary for me to deal with that point. I want to deal with the question of the site and the building line. The London County Council, as at present advised, hold distinctly that they are definitely entitled to that bit of land, and that if it is ever used for any purpose at all it should only be used for an open space. We say that a Parliamentary agreement on this point was come to in 1912 when the Public Offices (Sites) Act was passed, and, if it had not been for that agreement which was contained in a special new Clause, that Act would probably never have gone through Parliament. That Act was passed on the definite understanding that the building line, as laid down in 1912 was to prevail permanently for London in that particular area. Therefore, if that piece of land is used for any other purpose, it can only be used for an open space for the people of London. We say that the repeal of that Section in Clause 2 of this Bill is going to deprive London of what might be one of its most useful open spaces if it is thrown into the Embankment Gardens.

I should like the House to realise that the first controversy about this particular site dates back to the Embankment Act when, for the first time, the shores of the river were embanked, and large portions of the recovered and reclaimed land was thrown into the land of adjoining owners, whether Crown land or private owner's. This is an old controversy dating back to the time of the Thames Embankment Act. When that reclamation of land happened the City of London practically presented to the Government the whole of the site which we are now discussing; that is to say, the whole of the site on the Embankment side of the building line which was drawn in 1912. The whole question was raised again in 1870, when the Government proposed that that part of that particular site should be used for a Government building. So indignant was the Opposition in the House of Commons at that time that the late Mr. W. H. Smith, who was then the Member for Westminster, moved:

On this point, we feel very strongly, because the London County Council have always held that part of their function is to preserve for London every kind of open space which it is possible to secure. We are at this moment busily engaged with our London Squares Bill, which is intended to preserve a very large number of open spaces for the health of the people of London, and yet the First Commissioner, who professes to be fond of his London, comes down to this House with a proposal to take away from London one of the most useful open spaces near Montagu House and to give in exchange three-quarters of an acre of land somewhere else, which may hold a few seats for old people but will not provide anything in the nature of a proper open space.

The First Commissioner did not explain to the House why 4½ per cent. interest is to be paid instead of 3½. We have been told that 3½ was the customary percentage to pay on the instalments for the purchase of land for public purposes. I should like to know why an extra 1 per cent. is required for this purpose. I do not know whether this practice is going to be followed by other Departments that purchase land for public buildings. Colonel Murray, on the 9th July, 1912, said:

There are one or two questions to which I think the House would like to have an answer. I think the House will agree that the right hon. Gentleman made out a case for the rehousing of the 22 separate Departments which are now in various parts of London. There can be no doubt that some of the staffs are at present housed in a disgraceful manner. But the issue does not seem to be whether they should be rehoused or not, but whether this is the best place in which to rehouse them, and whether the Government plans are right plans; and, more than that, whether, within a reasonable distance of Whitehall, we might not get a better site at less cost than this one. I would ask the First Commissioner what he estimates the total cost will be, and whether there are any other sites available in Westminster. Supposing that there was a plan for the proper laying out of this site, not for Government buildings, but for development by other people, it might be possible to do that and to save expense, in this time of financial stringency, by using the values of the land to rehouse these staffs in another part of Westminster that might be available for the purpose. We are all watching with very great interest the development of commercial buildings on the Millbank side. It seems to me that that would be quite near enough to Whitehall for Government Departments, and I believe that land is available there. Would it not be possible to reconsider this question? If any such arrangement is under consideration, I think the House is entitled to know about it before this Debate closes.

I understand that there is to be an alteration of the frontage on the north side, and that a rest garden is to be placed there. Do I understand that this proposal would involve the moving of the Cenotaph from its present site? It has been stated publicly that there is an idea of moving the Cenotaph, and, if that is so, I am quite sure that on grounds of public sentiment the House will agree to no such thing. [ Interruption. ] I put that question because I saw the matter raised the other day, and this is the time to raise here the question as to whether there is any such idea at the back of the reorganisation. I think the House will want a great deal more argument before it agrees to an alteration of the compromise which was arrived at in 1912, because there can be no doubt that the building line extending from Whitehall Court is the best building line from the point of view of the amenities of the Embankment. It is a great view and a great site. I need not quote Wordsworth on the view from Westminster Bridge, but the right hon. Gentleman might refresh his mind as to Wordsworth's lines before he finally makes up his mind to carry out these plans. If there is a possibility of getting land on the Millbank side at a reasonable cost, and of getting a building which will be architecturally valuable from the point of view of the Embankment, I think the House ought to consider it.

I welcome the proposal which has been put forward by the right hon. Gentleman the First Commissioner of Works, because I think it opens the way to the beginning of a piece of work which is very badly needed. I am not impressed by the argument that, because an agreement was made in 1912, we must, in the year 1931, be exceedingly careful about disturbing that compromise. The right hon. Gentleman has put before the House a case which the Noble Lord the Member for Hastings (Lord E. Percy) did not disturb. I listened very carefully to the speech of the Noble Lord, and the only solution that I thought he offered to the House was to pursue a steady attrition of staffs—to reduce staffs and to transfer buildings to the outer districts of London. To what districts? What is an outer district of London?

There is another side to this question. The Noble Lord spoke about a career of comfort, and about dignified buildings. I agree with regard to the dignified exteriors, but I have been behind the exteriors, and I am certain that the Noble Lord will not attempt to justify for one moment the conditions which are to be found in regard to accommodation for the staffs, behind those exteriors, of which he must know. Members on this side of the House are very often taunted with demanding that the State should undertake this, that or the other piece of work, and their attention is drawn to what is done by private enterprise. The hon. Member for Leith (Mr. E. Brown) has referred to Millbank. It so happens that I have had the opportunity of going over the building of Imperial Chemical Industries, and we may take that as a test of the foresight and organising ability of private enterprise. In that building, the accommodation provided for a typist is superior to the accommodation provided Secretaries in the Post Office. It has been said recently that the higher grade civil servant is not as well paid as he would be if he were employed by private enterprise. I am not aware of the previous Government having done anything to improve that pay, and it seems to me that the Noble Lord is now suggesting that there is no need to provide this accommodation, but that the staffs should be reduced instead. He does not say how he is going to reduce the work. I understand that hon. Members opposite hope to introduce Protection into this country. I wonder if that will reduce the staff of the Board of Trade, or the staffs of other Government Departments. I imagine that it will increase the staffs. Let the Noble Lord show how the work is to be reduced. The problem is not solved by transferring it to the local authorities.

The First Commissioner of Works, I am glad to say, confessed to the House that the accommodation provided for these staffs is grossly inadequate, and that is quite true. I wish he had told us how many thousands of civil servants have to work in basements—how they are hindered and hampered in their daily duties because of inadequate accommodation. I wish he had told us of the bad ventilation, the rate of sickness, the bad lighting, the discomfort of the staffs, and the welfare accommodation which is not there. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will succeed in getting the support of the House for this Measure. As I see the proposition, 7,000 civil servants will get better accommodation at a cost of something like £10,000 or £15,000, and, it may be, even less. I know it has been suggested by the Noble Lord that it may be more, but it may be less than the figure quoted. The Noble Lord suggested that, if building costs come down, so do rents come down. That is not my experience, and I am sure it is not the experience of any hon. Member on this side. He also suggested that, if you have larger buildings, ipso facto, you must have larger staffs, but I submit that, if you have a larger building, with larger accommodation, it will enable you to close down unsuitable buildings and accommodation.

It seems to me to be simple common sense that Government Departments should be near to this House. I am not going to say that they should all be in one building, and I am not pledged to this particular type of building, but I think we all ought to agree that every civil servant should have reasonable accommodation in which to perform his daily work. I regard that as sound economy, and, because no better proposition has yet been put before the House, I support this Bill as a practical proposal. If the Bill is passed, it will enable this work to begin within what I should regard as a comparatively reasonable period, as compared with the proposal of the Noble Lord to reduce staffs and transfer to the districts. The Noble Lord asked, is this the time to be doing these things? I think it is the time. Hon. Members below the Gangway opposite have been asking the Government to be bold and courageous in pursuing the policy of building houses. This could be made one instalment of that policy. I repeat that this accommodation is badly needed, and, when it is provided, it will make it possible for 7,000 civil servants to work under better conditions. That is true economy, and I hope that the House will give its support to the Bill.

I do not want to go into the question of the building line, which has already been dealt with by so many speakers, but I want to say that my reason for opposing this Bill is that I think that, as has been said by my Noble Friend the Member for Hastings (Lord E. Percy), this is not a time at which to start building very large Government offices. Only yesterday we had the figures of the national accounts for the past year, and we find that they show a deficit of £23,000,000; and everyone in this House knows that, in his coming financial statement, the Chancellor of the Exchequer will have to find a great deal more than £23,000,000 if the Budget is to balance at the end of the forthcoming year. That is the main reason why I do not think that this is a time to begin a building of this sort. I quite agree that the First Commissioner of Works made out a very good case for better housing for the Government Departments, and everyone who has had anything to do with Government Departments knows perfectly well that the accommodation in many of them is very bad indeed. I would like, however, to point out to the right hon. Gentleman who is now responsible for the Office of Works that some of the worst basements in existence in Government Departments are in the new block which is occupied by the Ministry of Health. Therefore, I hope that, should the House agree to the building which the right hon. Gentleman wants to put up, he will see that in its planning proper accommodation is provided.

The First Commissioner was not even able to say that, by building a new Government office, he was going to save any very large amount of money. As a rule, when a Minister comes to this House, or when an official goes before a county council, and says that he is going to build a large new office, he usually puts forward the excuse that by building that office a very large amount of money will be saved. I remember that, when the Somerset County Council the other day proposed to build large new offices at Taunton, it was said that by building these large new offices a great deal of money would be saved, but, as a matter of fact, it does not appear that that saving is going to happen. The First Commissioner on this occasion did not put forward that argument. He said, probably very rightly, that it was impossible to get an estimate and that he might be a little out.

I should like to pursue the argument that has been put forward by the hon. Member for Leith (Mr. E. Brown): why build on the most expensive site in London? It is obvious that you should have your Government offices in proximity to the House of Commons, and it is felt by a great many Ministers whose Departments are not near the House that they are suffering under a disadvantage. In 1923, I was Parliamentary Private Secretary to the Postmaster-General, and it was a very great inconvenience if you wanted papers in a hurry and a messenger had to be sent to the General Post Office. It was a difficult method of conducting business when the General Post Office was three-quarters of an hour away. Therefore, I agree that the Departments should be within a reasonable distance of the House of Commons, but I do not think it is necessary that every branch of a great department should be so near the House, though I quite agree that if a Minister had two staffs the higher civil servants should be within a reasonable distance. All the servants of the Ministry of Labour, for instance, need not be housed a few hundred yards away.

That question, however, does not really arise, because, in the hon. Member's submission, there is a great deal of land available by Millbank, and he asked the First Commissioner whether it would not be possible to put up a large building somewhere near there which would be as near the House of Commons as the Montagu House site, and whether it would not be possible, in view of the need for economy, to let out the Montagu House site, which would probably pay for the whole of the new building. I do not know if the First Commissioner will consider that, but I think the Government will undoubtedly be accused, when people see this large new building arising, of spending extravagantly at a time when the Chancellor of the Exchequer is enjoining everyone else to save. I do not think in these times, with so many unemployed, we should see the Government setting out to build a new palace for its civil servants, when they might be able to build cheaper somewhere else, and for that reason I am prepared to oppose the Bill.

The right hon. Gentleman, in moving the Second Reading, did not point out that the place on the Whitehall front which he offered as an alternative is only about three-quarters of an acre, whereas the space in the Bill, which the London County Council consider ought to be left as an open space on the Embankment site, is nearly three acres, and the exchange he offers is a very poor one from the point of view of an open space. There is, of course, the whole of the space and the projection of the 1912 line through the site of Montagu House which is included in the bargain arrived at at that time. This is by no means a new proposal. In fact the site on which it is proposed to build might be called a kind of Naboth's Vineyard. I have examined the report of the Select Committee of 1912 and I would draw attention to answers given by Sir Henry Tanner, the chief architect of the Commissioner of Works, when examined by Lord Alexander Thynne: namely, the building then in contemplation—not so big as the building in contemplation to-day. The answer was:

Then think of the staffs themselves—another 7,500 persons crowded on this site—twice the number accommodated in the County Hall, and more than twice the number accommodated in the Imperial Chemical building; in fact, as many people as will be provided for as in the whole of these new buildings in Millbank. If you must have new accommodation, why take up this valuable place and encroach on that building line? Why not go to Millbank, or even to the other side of the river? Because it would not commend itself, as Sir Henry Tanner said years ago. I do not know whether all Members noticed the air view that was published in the "Times" on 3rd December, a very impressive indication of what the effect will be if the Bill is accepted. No doubt the House also saw a letter from Sir Leslie Scott dealing with what he describes as a tragic mistake. The right hon. Gentleman rather made light of the objections that have been urged against this proposal on the ground of space. The building line which was agreed to in 1912 cannot bind successive Parliaments, but there was an understanding. The space that he offers as an alternative is only about three-quarters of an acre and is a very inadequate exchange. I would ask him, further, to consider whether the housing of that 7,500 on that site is really necessary having regard to what might be done by a comb out of the Department, letting them be better housed, in more comfortable circumstances, and with greater advantage to themselves, further out, and relieve them of the necessity of coming in and going out every day in crowded trains in the rush hour and all the rest of it into a part of London which is already congested and fully occupied. I support the Amendment.

I wish to join in the protest against any expenditure of money at a time like this. My right hon. Friend said any business concern would ere now have gone into the whole question and put up suitable buildings to suit the staff. That is true in many ways, but no business firm that I know would expend money when they were running into bankruptcy, and that is the position at present. We cannot afford more money, and I am strongly against this expenditure. I should like to say one word on the placing of the building, because I am very keen on open spaces. I believe it is a tremendous asset that that open space on the side of the Thames should be kept there, for we know ourselves how advantageous it is in the summer to have the Terrace where we can get fresh air. The site on the opposite side of Whitehall is very much smaller than it would be on the Thames side, and, therefore, I do not think the bargain is a good one, nor do I consider it necessary to have any open space on the Whitehall side of the building. The right hon. Gentleman has put forward a claim on behalf of those who wish to be near the Cenotaph. It was very well meant, doubtless, but I hardly think it is necessary. They would be far better placed on the opposite side, where they can see the river and enjoy more amenities than they can along Whitehall, where they would be covered with dust all the time. I oppose the Bill, as I consider it an inopportune moment to bring forward such a scheme, however necessary it might be at another time. It is one of those things that must be put off till there is more money.

There is nothing from my point of view to complain of in this discussion, because on one or two questions we are all agreed. There must be new accommodation somewhere. I tried to point out at the beginning, though hon. Members do not seem to have accepted the fact, that the Bill does not confer on the Government any power to spend money other than they have at present. That is to say that, if the Bill were rejected, the Government could go on with their plans to build so far as they could on the site without coming to the House for permission. They would only have to come for an Estimate in the ordinary way. That is quite definite and clear. We cannot hope to start, even working in the best of circumstances, for probably 18 months, or longer. Therefore, it is not quite fair to talk as if I had brought in a Bill in order immediately to start spending money upon this particular project. The House will not expect me to follow both the Noble Lords, and one or two others Members, who plunged inta a discussion as to whether the staffs and the Departments should be cut down and generally whether there should be a reshuffling of Ministries, and so on. I have my own opinion about that matter. I have been a Minister only at a very late time in my life, and I have some very clear and definite opinions both about the Civil Service and Ministerial appointments, which, I have no doubt at all, would be as heretical as many of the opinions of the Noble Lord opposite.

I will say one word in defence of my own Department. I sit in that beautiful room, which I did not choose for myself, and in which I am sometimes ashamed to sit when I remember how some of my constituents are housed. But there it is. It is a beautiful room, and one of the loveliest views in London is obtained from it, and I enjoy it even in the winter time. When the Noble Lord rather pours scorn on the Department, I can take that in person. As I sit in that room I occasionally raise my eyes and I see a long list of photographs of people who have occupied the position which I now occupy. It is a very distinguished gallery of very distinguished men, who rendered no end of service to this country, and it was a little unworthy of the Noble Lord to pour that sort of slightly contemptuous satire upon the Department. It was unworthy of him, and, when he thinks about it, he will remember that the people who have been satisfied to occupy the position are some of the most distinguished men in the history of British politics. Do not forget that this Department took its rise when we produced the wigwam for King Canute. When I listen to the Noble Lord telling us that he wants to reform the Departments, and so on, I think that he is very much like King Canute trying to sweep back the waves. You will all be here when I am gone, and I would like to remind the Noble Lord of what he and his party were reminded yesterday, that it only seems the other day that the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer stood at this Box and, in a few words, abolished about four Departments. He wiped them right out; but the Departments wiped him out. There is one thing I have learnt to appreciate, and that is the strength of the Civil Service, and I wish the Noble Lord joy in his campaign.

On the vital question of building else where, the Noble Lord must, I think, know that less than 10 years ago a committee was appointed to go into this very question, and that, in spite of their recommendations, the Government of the day turned down the proposal. I cannot argue at length as to whether it would be wise for the Ministry of Transport to go, say, 10 miles out, or whether it would be wise to send the Board of Education out. I know that it would not be an economy to send out the Office of Works. I can speak personally. I shall not be there for more than a century. The Office of Works is the one Office that needs to be near the others, for there are always consultations taking place about accommodation, and about one thing and another. The Noble Lord has forgotten that a big part of the work of the Office of Works has to do with the Board of Trade in its consular arrangements, and with the Foreign Office in regard to the Embassies and so on, and to say that this Department should be stuck out in the wilds somewhere is rather absurd.

With regard to what was said by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Leith (Mr. E. Brown) and those who spoke about Millbank, we wanted badly some accommodation just now, and we went to the people who have it to let at Millbank, and we cannot afford to pay their price. Therefore, we are looking elsewhere. The other important question raised by the Noble Lord and other hon. Members was whether we were giving an equivalent of space. I disagree with the figures of the hon. Member opposite, because he has taken in the Montagu House site as well.

I do not think that he has any right to do so, because it is not involved in the agreement which we are wanting to repeal this afternoon. That matter will be discussed by the Committee if the Bill receives a Second Reading, and I shall be quite willing to take the judgment of the committee as to whether we are giving a fair equivalent in exchange for that which we are asking on the Embankment side. I am assured that we are. I am quite sure that we shall be able to demonstrate that fact to the committee whenever the committee is set up.

I want to answer the hon. Member for Leith. We must take the figures. I do not want my successor or myself to be called over the coals about these figures, but we reckon that the cost of new buildings will be approximately £2,215,000. We add contingencies amounting to £50,000, and we add £90,000 for loss of rent and charges that may fall on us through vacating premises before we either sell or let them. That makes a total of £2,355,000. I understand—I have not worked it out—that on a 5 per cent. basis, that would mean an annual charge of £117,750. The saving in rent would be £158,000.

Yes. We should have a net saving on the building of £40,250. I want to be quite fair with the House, and I take the present approximate value of the land, which is £1,250,000. The annual value on a 4½ per cent. basis is £56,000 as against our saving of £40,000. I am giving round figures. That is what I meant when I said that we should probably be a little to the bad. But what the House has to recognise is, that we are paying that money to ourselves. We have already paid for the land, and, therefore, in judging the whole business we must take that very largely into consideration.

The 1 per cent. is a Treasury business. The Treasury say that the value of money has gone up, and that, therefore, you must reckon it at 4½ per cent.

I do not know, but I know that they are making it apply to me at present. I want to say a few words about the Air Ministry and other Ministries, and also to get rid of the notion that this has anything to do with a Socialist Government launching a new scheme for a grandiose building and the rest of it. The matter has been under discussion for years, and I am only carrying on the business from the point where I found it, and it happens to have fallen to my lot to bring it to the point of conclusion where we can come to the House of Commons. I hope very much that I am going to get the Second Reading of this Bill unanimously.

Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to make any special inquiry in the direction of combing out staffs with a view to the members of staffs who are at present housed and accommodated in unsatisfac- tory conditions being able to carry on their work at a greater distance? Is he prepared to make any inquiry into that matter during the next 18 months before he is committed to anything, taking as an example what was done in the case of the Ministry of Labour, the Ministry of Pensions and the Savings Bank?

7.0 p.m.

We are not doing the combing out, but what the Department is doing continually is to find the cheapest and best accommodation we can for the staffs. We have searched in vain the area within which, in present conditions, we are allowed to house the staffs, for a site or for a number of sites upon which we could house in a satisfactory manner the staffs which require housing.

I did not wish to cast a reflection on the Office of Works or upon the right hon. Gentleman's photographs, but I am afraid that although I may be King Canute, I cannot accept the gospel of despair of the right hon. Gentleman, and I shall ask the House to divide against this Bill.

Question, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question," put, and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read a Second time.

Resolved,

"That it is expedient that the Bill be committed to a Joint Committee of Lords and Commons."—[ Mr. T. Kennedy. ]

Message to the Lords to acquaint them therewith.

Public Offices (Sites) Amendment [Money]

Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 71A.

[Mr. DUNNICO in the Chair.]

Resolved,

"That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to amend the provisions of the Public Offices (Sites) Act, 1912, in respect of the following among other matters, that is to say the rate of the interest chargeable on the amount of the consideration due to His Majesty on the vesting under the said Act of 1912 of certain Crown lands in the Commissioners of Works, it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys provided by Parliament and, in the event of the moneys so provided being insufficient for the purpose, the charge on the Consolidated Fund, of such additional amounts as may become payable under the said Act of 1912 by the said Commissioners by reason of the raising of the rate of the said interest from three and a-half to four and a-half per cent. per annum."—( King's Recommendation signified ).—[ Mr. Lansbury. ]

Resolution to be reported upon Tuesday, 14th April.

Housing (Rural Workers) Amendment [Money]

Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 71A.

[Mr. DUNNICO in the Chair.]

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That it is expedient to amend the Housing (Rural Workers) Act, 1926, by extending by five years the period within which applications for assistance under that Act may be received by local authorities"—( King's Recommendation signified. )—[ Mr. Lansbury. ]

Speaking on behalf of my hon. Friends, I had better record that we shall have some observations to offer on this proposal when the Bill reaches Second Reading. We shall not discuss the Financial Resolutions now, nor ask the right hon. Gentleman for an explanation. I understand that the Second Reading will be put down on some suitable day, and no doubt the right hon. Gentleman will then be in a position to explain its provisions. We shall have some questions to address to the Minister of Health, as this Measure affects England as well as Scotland.

I only wish to say that the request of the right hon. Gentleman in his brief speech will be complied with.

Question put, and agreed to.

Resolution to be reported upon Tuesday, 14th April.

Supply

Report [31st March]

Resolutions reported,

Civil Estimates, 1931

1. "That a sum, not exceeding £318,200, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1932, for Expenditure in respect of Art and Science Buildings, Great Britain."

2. "That a sum, not exceeding £78,430, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1932, for Expenditure in respect of Houses of Parliament Buildings."

3. "That a sum, not exceeding £478,000, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1932, for Expenditure in respect of Employment Exchange and Insurance Buildings, Great Britain (including Ministries of Labour and Health and the Department of Health for Scotland)."

4. "That a sum, not exceeding £147,670, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1932, for Expenditure in respect of Royal Parks and Pleasure Gardens.

Resolutions agreed to.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

Adjournment

Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[ Mr. T. Kennedy. ]

Adjourned accordingly at Nine Minutes after Seven o'Clock.