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Commons Chamber

Volume 297: debated on Thursday 31 January 1935

House of Commons

Thursday, January 31, 1935

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

Private Business

Edinburgh Corporation (Tramways, &C.) Order Confirmation Bill,

"to confirm a Provisional Order under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Acts, 1899 and 1933, relating to Edinburgh Corporation (Tramways, &c.)," presented by Sir Godfrey Collins; and ordered (under Section 7 of the Act of 1899) to be considered To-morrow.

Oral Answers to Questions

Trade and Commerce

Competing Manufactures (Labour Conditions)

asked the Minister of Labour in what countries there have been decreases of wages or increases of hours or adoption of the double-shift system since 1st January, 1932, in manufacturing industries competing with British manufactures?

Comprehensive statistics on this subject are not available, but the latest statistics published by the International Labour Office, which appeared in the issue of "The International Labour Review" for November, 1934, indicate that in nearly all countries there has been some reduction, since 1932, in the average level of rates of money wages. I have no evidence of increases in normal weekly working hours, in any of the principal oversea countries, since 1932; in some countries, notably Italy, the United States, and India, there have been reductions. I am not in possession of information showing to what extent double-shift systems of working have been instituted in oversea countries since 1932.

Are we to understand, in regard to increases in hours, that this country has been the only one to impose increases within recent years, under the influence of the Conservative Government?

The answer I gave was "not since 1932." The change to which the hon. Member refers was some years before then.

Export Credits

asked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department what is the amount of outstanding unpaid export credits granted by this country; the individual amount in the case of each nation; and the nature of the trade in relation to which these credits were originally granted?

I have been asked to reply. From 1st July, 1926, to 31st December, 1934, claims under the Export Credits Guarantee Department's Guarantees have arisen in respect of unpaid credits amounting to £880,000. This is a gross figure and the actual outpayments by the Department have been considerably smaller. I regret that the information asked for in the second and third parts of the question is not readily available for technical reasons, which my hon. and gallant Friend the Secretary of the Overseas Trade Department will be glad to explain if my hon. and gallant Friend will communicate with him.

Entertainment Industry (Dispute)

asked the Minister of Labour how many stage and cinema actors are employed in Great Britain; how many belong to trade unions; and how many theatrical agencies there are and whether these are required to be registered by his Department?

At the date of the 1931 Census—27th April, 1931—there were 8,673 actors and 10,169 actresses in Great Britain. Figures for more recent dates are not available. I have no information as to the numbers who belong to trade unions. Theatrical agencies are not required to register with my Department and I am afraid that I cannot say how many there are.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that this is the most astonishing census in the history of the community, and ought we not take some action in the matter?

asked the Minister of Labour whether his intervention has been invoked in the dispute between the British Actors' Equity Association and the directors of Drury Lane Theatre; and what announcement he has to make?

A joint meeting is taking place this afternoon for the discussion of a means of settlement of this dispute. I am glad to say that in the meantime an arrangement has been made under which it will be possible to proceed with the signing of contracts for the production of plays without prejudice to the terms of the final settlement.

Unemployment

Irishmen

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that complaints are being made of the influx of Irishmen into the Birmingham area and that they are being given preference over Birmingham people when vacancies occur; and what action he proposes to take to remedy this?

I am not aware of the complaints mentioned, but I am making inquiries and will let my hon. Friend know the result in due course.

asked the Minister of Labour how long it is necessary for Irishmen coming from the Irish Free State to be resident in England before they are eligible for any of the benefits under the new Unemployment Act regulations; and are there any figures available showing the number of such Irishmen who have registered and found work during the last two years?

Applicants for allowances must show that their normal occupation is employment in respect of which contributions are payable under the Widows', Orphans' and Old Age Contributory Pensions Acts, 1925 to 1932. The question whether this qualification is fulfilled in any particular case is for decision by the board's officer and, on appeal, by the Chairman of the Appeal Tribunal. The answer to the second part of the question is in the negative.

Glasgow

asked the Minister of Labour whether he has considered the statement sent from the Glasgow Corporation containing an estimate of the number of claimants who, as transitional claimants or able-bodied applicants, will be subject to the regulations issued by the Unemployment Assistance Board; whether that statement contains any estimate of the number of such claimants whose house rent is under 7s. 6d. per week; and whether he will state what that estimate is?

I received a letter, dated 17th December, from the Glasgow Corporation, which contained no estimate of numbers beyond a statement that 75 per cent. of the recipients of able-bodied relief in Glasgow are living in houses with a rental of less than 7s. 6d. per week. This statement did not apply to recipients of transitional payments.

Bath and Wash-House Attendants

asked the Minister of Labour whether he has received the report of the committee considering whether bath and wash-house attendants working for public authorities should be looked upon as insurable workers?

Representations have been made that this class of employment should be brought within the Unemployment Insurance scheme, and I am at present awaiting further information from interested parties before deciding whether the necessary draft regulations should be made and submitted to the Unemployment Insurance Statutory Committee.

Perhaps my hon. Friend will be good enough to put a question down. My recollection is that we have already decided to make draft regulations and submit them to the Statutory Committee.

Will the Minister take into consideration that the public who use public baths and wash-houses pay for admission, and that the public bodies who are the owners of the institutions make a profit out of them? The attendants are therefore employed in a profit-making undertaking.

Earlston Camp, New Galloway (Mr. W. Lowrie)

asked the Minister of Labour whether his attention has been drawn to the case of Mr. W. Lowrie, who was transferred from the Glenbranter training centre to the Earlston camp in New Galloway; whether he is aware that, having to cease work on account of a sprain, Lowrie was given his pay note which showed that after working for nine and a-half hours at 11d. per hour, and being credited with wages to the amount of 8s. 8d., deductions in respect of insurance and hut accommodation left him with a balance of 1d.; that it cost Lowrie 5s. 9d. to get back to Glasgow, having to pawn boots and clothing in order to raise the necessary funds; that at the Earlston camp there is no medical examination and no precautions taken to see that men who enter the camp are clean and free from disease; and whether he will make inquiries into these matters?

This question relates to matters which are alleged to have: occurred after Mr. Lowrie had left the Ministry's centre and had been placed in employment at what is described as the Earlston camp, which is a private contractor's job and in no way under the control of the Department. I am however making inquiries and will communicate with the hon. Member as soon as possible.

Is it not a fact that, in the first place, Mr. Lowrie was transferred to the Ministry of Labour?

Yes, Sir. It was in the ordinary course. I am glad to say, as is the case with many people who join the Ministry's labour camps, work was found for him, and the work was at this particular place. I am making inquiries as to the work at that camp.

Will the Minister let me know what is the result of those inquiries, because, if the work that is being found is of this character, it is better not to transfer them?

Statistics

10 and 11.

asked the Minister of Labour (1) whether he can state the total cost of maintaining the unemployed who have received transitional payments since the passing of the Order in Council of 1931, and what the total cost would have been during the same period if these persons had been receiving standard benefit without the application of the means test? and

(2) whether he can state the annual cost of maintenance of those who are now on transition, whether they were receiving the standard rates of benefit of the Unemployment Insurance Act; and the estimated annual cost of the maintenance of such transitional cases?

I regret that it has not been possible to calculate these figures in time for me to give them to the hon. Member to-day, but I will send them to him in a day or two, unless he would prefer to put down his question again.

Agricultural Workers, North Riding of Yorkshire

asked the Minister of Health how many operatives belonging to the industry of agriculture, excluding forestry, in the North Riding of Yorkshire were returned as in work and out of work, respectively, in the census of the 26th April, 1931?

I regret that the figures asked for are not available; but I am sending my hon. Friend certain figures bearing upon his inquiry, which I hope may be of use to him.

As some of the figures of the census in this connection have already come out in the reports of the Statutory Committee on Unemployment Insurance, will the Minister expedite the publication of the remainder?

I refer to the figures in Table 3 of the Report of the Statutory Committee on Unemployment Insurance, published beforehand showing these very figures.

It appears to me that that is a question which should be addressed to the Ministry of Labour.

Wimbledon Area Office

asked the First Commissioner of Works where the area office in Wimbledon of the Unemployment Assistance Board is situated; whether it has been bought and, if so, how much was paid for it; who was the owner from whom it was bought; and what is the distance from the nearest Employment Exchange in that district?

I have ben asked to reply. This area office is temporarily housed at 1, Ridgeway Place, Wimbledon, which is vested in the Postmaster-General. I understand that the property was purchased as a site for a new Telephone Exchange for £3,550, the vendor being Sir Rupert Howorth. The premises are less than 1½ miles from the nearest Employment Exchange.

Statistics

asked the Minister of Labour whether he can state the determinations made under the new unemployment regulations up to 26th January in the Wallsend, Long Benton, Weetslade, and Gosforth areas, the percentage of cuts, and the percentage of increases?

I am in consultation with the Unemployment Assistance Board regarding the supply of information on questions of the kind to which my hon. Friend refers. At the moment such information is not available.

Will the right hon. Gentleman make the announcement as soon as possible in order that those who represent industrial areas may know what their position is in the matter?

Children and Young Persons Act, 1933

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that justices are ordering children to be sent to approved schools under the Children and Young Persons Act, 1933, in such numbers that these schools cannot take them and the children are being sent to remand homes, which are also becoming crowded out; and whether he proposes to take any steps to meet the difficulty?

The number of children and young perons sent to residential schools has increased substantially since the Children and Young Persons Act, 1933, owing largely to the raising of the age and other new provisions. In consequence of this increase the vacant accommodation in existing approved schools has been largely absorbed. Certain emergency measures have been taken to relieve the immediate pressure as far as possible, and the Home Office has discussed the situation with several of the local authorities, with whom the responsibility for providing accommodation rests. It is hoped that arrangements will be made before long to open a few additional schools.

Aliens

asked the Home Secretary the numbers of undesirable convicted persons who are now in this country but who cannot be deported either owing to diplomatic difficulties or to any other cause; whether any continuous supervision is exercised over such men and women; and what is its cost?

In the course of the last three years there have been about 90 cases in which, after a court has recommended deportation of an alien, this course has been prevented by practical difficulties, of which the most common is the impossibility of establishing the alien's national status. In such cases it is usual, if an additional measure of supervision is considered desirable, to make an order requiring him to report periodically at stated intervals to the police. This involves no extra cost to the police.

Firearms and Ammunition

asked the Home Secretary whether he has considered the report of the departmental committee on the statutory definition and classification of firearms and ammunition; whether he proposes to implement the recommendations of the committee; and, if so, when the necessary legislation will be introduced?

Yes, Sir. Effect can be given to some of these recommendations by administrative action, and the necessary steps are being taken for this purpose. As regards the recommendations requiring legislation, I am in consultation with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland, but in view of the present state of the Parliamentary time-table I cannot undertake that it will be possible to introduce legislation this Session.

Police (Unofficial Services)

asked the Home Secretary whether he will consider the remission of the charges usually made for police officers at unofficial functions when the services of such officers are required in connection with meetings, distributions, etc., of any bona fide charity?

Charges for lent police are fixed so as to cover the pay and allowances, etc., of the men employed, and I should not feel justified in recommending police authorities to adopt any other basis of charge for all charity functions. It is, of course, open to a police authority to reduce the charges in any particular case if they see good ground for doing so.

Prosecution, Scarborough

asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been drawn to a case heard on 13th December, 1934, by the Scarborough North Riding bench of justices, who, after hearing the case for the prosecution against Mr. Stewart Tidmarsh on a charge of causing unnecessary cruelty to a pig, held that no prima facie case had been made out, dismissed the summons against him, and thus precluded him from calling witnesses or giving evidence on his own behalf, but, after hearing the case against a codefendant, proceeded to censure Mr. Stewart Tidmarsh; and whether, in view of the circumstances in which this censure was delivered, he will institute an inquiry into the facts of this case?

I have already had correspondence with my hon. Friend about this matter, and have informed him that I cannot regard the case as one in which it would be practicable for me to intervene.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that Mr. Tidmarsh has had no opportunity of presenting his case at all; and could the right hon. Gentleman not afford him some opportunity by way of inquiry, or, if not inquiry, by some other way of presenting his case and of meeting the censures that have been levelled against him?

I have said that I cannot see any possibility of being able to intervene, but, if the hon. Gentleman cares to discuss the matter with my Department, I shall be glad to give facilities.

If the facts are as stated is this not a glaring act of injustice, and should there not be some remedy in this case?

Transport

Taximeter-Cabs (Fare Dials)

asked the Home Secretary whether he will seek an explanation from the Metropolitan licensing authorities for taximeter-cabs why they still continue to allow the use of fare-meters having black dials with illegible numerals working in apertures too small to allow the amount of the fare to be seen by artificial light; and will he direct the authorities to pay closer attention to the requirements of the public for a meter-dial upon which the fares can be read easily at all hours?

The Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis informs me that in his view the type of meter fitted to motor cabs is satisfactory if the meter is properly illuminated. Every effort has been made to see that the dials of taximeters are properly illuminated. During the year ended 31st December, 1934, 11 cases of failing to observe the requirements in this respect were reported for proceedings. In 329 other result of inspection, notice was given that the cabs were not to ply for hire until the police were satisfied that better means of illumination had been provided.

What would the objection be to the licensing authorities asking those who make these dials to make them slightly bigger and more legible? Would not the expense be very small, and the wishes of the public thereby met?

Speed Limit (Prosecutions, Nuneaton)

asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that 10 motor lorry drivers were summoned at Nuneaton on 7th January, 1935, under the silent control system for exceeding the speed limit; that the provisions of Section 21 of the Act of 1930, which definitely stipulate that a summons should be issued within a fortnight from the date of the occurrence, were not complied with; and will he take the necessary steps to ensure that this Section of the Act is carried out by the police in future throughout the country?

I have seen a reference in one of the law journals to the case to which my hon. and gallant Friend refers. Under Section 21 of the Road Traffic Act, 1930, the service of a summons within 14 days of the commission of the alleged offence is not essential: it is sufficient if the defendant was warned at the time of the offence that the question of prosecution would be considered, or if within 14 days the defendant was given proper notice of the intended prosecution. The special attention of all Chief Officers of Police was drawn to the requirements of this Section when it became operative, and I have no reason to think that any further communication on the subject is required.

Is it not a fact that none of these men were stopped at the time and warned that they would be summoned? It is for that reason that I am raising the question that they did not receive their summonses within 14 days. Is not that very unfair to the driver of a lorry?

If my hon. and gallant Friend will give me any detailed information, I shall be glad to have it.

Facilities, Kent and Essex

asked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware of the hardship to workpeople caused by police interpretation of Section 25 of the Road Traffic Act, which became operative on the 1st December, 1934; that thousands of workpeople in North-West Kent and South Essex, including Plumstead, are suffering from these decisions; and whether in view of the absence of any travel facilities in these rapidly-growing areas, he will take steps to ensure the continuance of travel facilities until the transport authorities are able to deal with this urgent demand?

I have been asked to reply. My hon. Friend presumes the hon. Member refers to the use of certain vehicles of the private car type by fare-paying passengers without public service vehicle or road service licences. The Road Traffic Act of 1930 requires that vehicles used for carrying passengers for hire or reward at separate fares shall only be operated if they are licensed as safe and suitable vehicles for such a purpose and the service is also authorised by a road service licence. The Section of the 1934 Act to which the hon. Member refers relates to the use of vehicles for the carriage of private parties on special occasions. Representations as to the need for additional services in this district should be made to the London Passenger Transport Board.

While thanking the hon. and gallant Member for the reply, may I ask if he is aware that there has been for a considerable time contracts arranged between private companies and workers as to the traffic facilities, but the police by their interpretation of the Act have cut off the whole of them? Until the time that the Transport Board is able to provide these facilities, will the Ministry allow the present arrangements to continue?

I will convey that question to my hon. Friend the Minister of Transport.

Betting and Lotteries Act

asked the Home Secretary whether he has noticed that penny football pools are now being advertised in the Press and from Luxemburg every Sunday; and, in view of this fresh attempt to spread gambling among children, whether he will consider amending the Betting and Lotteries Act in order to render it illegal?

I understand that there, is pending in the High Court an action in which the question at issue is whether the advertisement of a football pool competition in the Press contravenes Section 26 of the Betting and Lotteries Act, 1934. Judgment in that case has been reserved.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that football pool promoters have a rule or a regulation which they put on the back of their coupons to the effect that they do not accept bets from anyone under 21 years of age?

Is it not perfectly impossible, in the case of these football competitions, to know whether the person applying is 21 years of age, or any other age?

asked the Home Secretary whether any regulations have been framed in respect of the method of determining the accommodation for spectators on a track according to the provisions of Section 5 of the Betting and Lotteries Act, 1934?

The Act contains no provision empowering regulations to be made on the subject, and I can only refer my hon. Friend to the provisions of Section 6 (2), of paragraph (iii) of Section 7 (1) ( a ), and of Section 16 (1) ( b ) of the Act.

asked the Home Secretary whether any regulations have been framed to govern the form of application necessary to obtain a licence under Section 7 (2) of the Betting and Lotteries Act, 1934?

The Act contains no provisions empowering me to make regulations on this subject, and, as at present advised, I do not think it is necessary to recommend the adoption of any special form of application. The Act contains clear and specific directions as to the particulars which must be given to the licensing authority by an applicant for a licence.

Public Health

Colliery Refuse Tips

asked the Minister of Health whether he is in a position to say how many local authorities have made complaint to him during the last two years of the nuisance caused by slag heaps, pit heaps, etc., and asking for greater powers to deal with them; and what steps his Department have taken?

About half-a-dozen authorities have made complaints during the period but none of them have asked for greater powers to deal with the matter. On the general question my Department are in consultation with the Ministry of Mines; in the meantime individual complaints are being dealt with as they arise.

In the case of Tyldesley, where the right hon. Gentleman sent his inspectors, has there been any abatement as a result of the action he has taken?

I shall have to inform myself about the most recent state of affairs in order to satisfy the hon. Member.

asked the Minister of Health how many colliery pit-heaps are on fire in Lancashire; and what steps it is necessary for colliery companies to take in regard to notifying either the local authority or his Department when a colliery pit-heap gets on fire?

I have had information of 10 pit-heaps on fire in Lancashire. As regards the second part of the question, there is no statutory obligation to notify either the Ministry or the local authority.

Do not the Minister and his Department think it is time some action was taken where colliery companies put down accumulations of waste matters which are liable to spontaneous combustion? At present, apparently, nothing can be done until a fire breaks out.

As the hon. Member will be aware from recent communications, every possible action that can be taken is taken, but in the case of these fires the critical difficulty is that of extinguishing them.

In view of the losses which result from subsidence, will not the right hon. Gentleman's Department collaborate with the Mines Department with a view to keeping this material underground, rather than bringing it to the surface?

In view of the Minister's statement that everything that can be done is done, may I ask him whether that indicates that at present he has not sufficient powers to deal with this matter.

I do not think it is a question of powers, but far more a question of the technical difficulties.

Medical Practitioners' Union

asked the Minister of Health whether any local authorities have yet asked for his advice in regard to the request of the Medical Practitioners' Union that local authorities should give their organisation recognition; and, if so, what advice they have been given?

I have received a communication from one local authority on this subject. I do not consider that it is a matter on which it is properly my function to give advice.

Water Survey (Committee)

asked the Minister of Health when the new committee for the ascertainment of all the sources of water supply in the country will be appointed; how many technical people it will have on it; and if the terms of reference will be broad enough to enable recommendations of allocation to be made?

The membership of the committee will be announced very shortly. Five of the members will be scientists or engineers. The object of the survey is to collect and to correlate reliable records of available supplies, surface and underground. It will not be within the functions of the committee to make recommendations of allocation, for which additional information, of other kinds, is required.

Is it proposed that anything should be done at a later date to deal with the question of allocation, one of the greatest difficulties being to allocate the water to the right people?

Smoke Abatement

asked the Minister of Health whether he will consider setting up a committee to inquire into and report on measures to be employed to abate nuisances arising from the use of pulverised fuel, with special reference to nuisances connected with generating stations and other statutory undertakings?

A committee was appointed by the Electricity Commissioners in June, 1930, to consider and report upon the measures which have been taken both in this country and in others to obviate the emission of soot, ash, grit and gritty particles from the chimneys of electric power stations. The report of this committee, which dealt, inter alia, with the use of pulverised fuel, was published in 1932. In the circumstances I do not think that there is occasion for the appointment of a fresh committee.

Has the right hon. Gentleman received any representations from local authorities on this subject?

Clearly, I should require notice of that question in order to give a satisfactory reply.

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware of the feeling among some local authorities that progress towards the elimination of domestic smoke is too slow; and whether, as a step in this connection, he will consider, as a condition of future housing subsidies, laying down restrictions for the elimination of domestic smoke?

I have received representations from some local authorities on this subject. I do not think it would be practicable to adopt the suggestion made in the second part of the question.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that some of us would be better satisfied if there were more domestic smoke?

Deafness (Unqualified Practitioners)

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that a number of persons, having no suitable qualifications, are posing as specialists and purporting to treat and cure deafness and head-noises, and that many persons suffering from such afflictions are being put to loss and possibly physical damage by the treatment given by these unqualified practitioners; and whether he will take steps to protect those who are deaf from exploitation by unqualified persons pretending to treat and cure deafness?

I am aware of the facts stated in the first part of the question. They are discussed in Dr. Eichholz's Report on the Deaf in England and Wales. I have no power to take such steps as are suggested in the last part of the question, but I understand that the National Institute for the Deaf are always prepared to advise those who are deaf on suitable aids to hearing.

As the secretary of that institute says his blood is made to boil by these cases and therefore he is unable to take any action that is effective, cannot the right hon. Gentleman consider getting some power for these provincial towns such as exists in London by which they can withdraw their licence, as has recently been done in the case of the most notorious quack in the country?

Does not the right hon. Gentleman think his hon. Friend ought to be congratulated on his enthusiastic trade union activities?

Will the right hon. Gentleman urge all the approved societies who pay part of the cost of these appliances for the deaf to send their cases to the institute, because it is understood that some of them make a practice of doing it, in order to prevent this exploitation?

I will certainly take the hon. Gentleman's suggestion into consideration. As a matter of fact, I think the possibility of the practice, the desirability of which is obvious, is well known to the approved societies.

Maternity Hospitals

asked the Minister of Health whether, in view of the feeling among women that the training of medical students in maternity hospitals is often conducted without due regard to the welfare and comfort of the patients who are attended by students and of the concern which this impression is creating in the minds of the mothers themselves, he will inquire what, if any, action is being taken by those responsible for the arrangements in such hospitals to allay this anxiety and to ensure that every woman receives considerate attention as well as adequate medical and nursing treatment?

I have not received any information to the effect stated in the first part of the question and the continued and indeed increased popularity of maternity hospitals would not seem to point to any lack of consideration in the treatment of their patients. The hon. Member will no doubt appreciate that I have no control over the arrangements made for the training of medical students.

Will the right hon. Gentleman make the inquiries into the matter referred to in the question?

Garden Cities and Satellite Towns

asked the Minister Health whether he has received the report of the committee re-appointed in 1931 on garden cities and satellite towns; and, if so, when will it be published?

This report has been received, and instructions have been given for its publication.

Is it likely to be published during the course of the discussions on the Housing Bill, to which it is germane?

Location of Businesses (Rates)

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that some highly-rated local authorities are becoming alarmed at the methods adopted by more favourably placed authorities in attracting persons to transfer businesses where the rates are lower; and will he consider whether any steps can be taken to stop this practice?

I am not clear what the hon. Member has in mind, but, if he will send me particulars, I will consider whether I have any powers in regard to the action being taken.

It is clear, is it not, that low rates and taxes mean much more employment?

Poor Law Relief, Birmingham

asked the Minister of Health the number of persons in Birmingham in receipt of able-bodied poor relief, and the number of their dependants, on the last available date,

Average number of persons in receipt of out-relief during

December, 1934.

December, 1933.

December, 1932.

1. Unemployed persons registered at Employment Exchanges.

1,115

1,409

1,455

2. Dependent wives and children of persons in 1

2,575

3,583

3,782

3. Other persons ordinarily engaged in some regular occupation (including; dependants).

3,258

2,996

2,736

4. Total persons ordinarily engaged in some regular occupation and their dependants.

6,948

7,988

7,973

asked the Minister of Health whether he will give the number of persons in receipt of Poor Law relief in Birmingham on the last available date, giving separate figures for men, women, and children; and comparable figures for the same period during the previous two years?

The total number of persons in receipt of poor relief in Birmingham (including dependants but excluding rate-aided patients in mental hospitals, persons in receipt of domiciliary medical relief only and casuals) on Saturday, 19th January, 1935, was 21,879 as compared with 22,655 and 24,122 on the corresponding days in 1934 and 1933. The weekly returns from which these figures have been obtained do not distinguish the numbers of men, women and children, but approximately 29 per cent. of the total consisted of men, 33 per cent. of women and 38 per cent. of children.

and comparable figures for the same period in the previous two years?

As the answer contains a number of figures in tabular form, I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the answer:

The returns made to my Department do not distinguish able-bodied persons in receipt of poor relief. The figures available are for the numbers of persons ordinarily engaged in some regular occupation. The figures include cases in which the primary cause of relief was sickness and not unemployment.

The figures are as follow:

Contributory Pensions Act

asked the Minister of Health what steps he proposes to take to safeguard the position of persons whose pension rights expire at the end of 1935 owing to their being no longer insured under the National Health Insurance Act?

As indicated in the reply which I gave to a similar question asked by the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) on the 14th November last, the whole position will be reviewed when the first report of the Government Actuary on the financial operation of the Contributory Pensions Acts is received. This report is expected shortly.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, when any further consideration is given to a re-organisation of various pension schemes, he will consider the inclusion of spinsters of 55 years under similar conditions to those operating for widows when they reach the age of 55, with the proviso that no pension shall be granted unless the individual ceases working for gain?

I do not think there is any real similarity between the pensions for spinsters on retirement which my hon. Friend has in mind and the pensions granted at the age of 55 to the widows of certain categories of men who died or had reached the age of 70 before the Contributory Pensions Scheme came into operation. The pensions for spinsters to which he refers are particular examples of retirement pensions. The heavy cost inherent in all such schemes as have been put forward and the administrative difficulties which have been explained in the House, in particular during the Debate of the 21st February last, make it impossible for the Government to hold out any hope of the acceptance of the type of scheme which my hon. Friend proposes.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take into consideration the fact that a considerable number of unmarried insured women give up their jobs to look after aged relatives and thereby lose their pension rights?

His Majesty's Silver Jubilee Celebrations

asked the Minister of Health whether he is prepared to sanction public assistance committees giving extra relief to Poor Law applicants in connection with the Silver Jubilee celebrations in May?

I have already issued a general sanction in this matter in a circular, a copy of which I am sending to the hon. Member.

Will that circular in any shape or form instruct the board's officers that they will have powers of discretion?

It is not a matter for me to issue an instruction at all. It is to indicate the powers of local authorities.

Do I take it that it will be sufficient if the board passes a resolution and that that will meet with the right hon. Gentleman's approval?

If the hon. Member will consult the circular, of which I am sending him a copy, he will see that it deals with the situation.

asked the Secretary for Mines whether he is prepared to circularise all mine-owners to give a day's pay to all engaged in mines on the occasion of the national holiday in regard to the Silver Jubilee celebration in May?

I should like to ask the Prime Minister on this question of holidays whether it would be possible to follow the precedent which I think was adopted at the Coronation of His Majesty and for a public intimation to be given to employers of labour that the workers should be paid for the holiday? It is not very nice that they should have a day's holiday and lose a day's pay for it. If the right hon. Gentleman looks up the records, I think he will find that there was such an intimation made at the Coronation.

I wonder if my right hon. Friend would be good enough to have a question on that subject put to me, and we will consider it.

When the right hon. Gentleman is considering the matter, will the Government consider that the unemployed will possibly need extra pay? Will the Government consider that?

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether a decision has yet been reached as to the participation or otherwise of representative detachments of the Territorial Army and the British National Cadet Association in the celebration of His Majesty's Silver Jubilee?

No decisions have yet been taken.

Distressed Areas (Grant)

asked the Minister of Health whether he can state the allocation of the special grant to distressed areas for the financial year ended 5th April, 1934; and particulars for the year 1933–34 in respect of each such area, showing in a comparative way the average number of registered unemployed, the average number of such unemployed chargeable to the local authorities, the total amount disbursed as outdoor relief for the maintenance of able-bodied unemployed persons and their dependants, the amount of relief afforded to the local authority by the special grant expressed as a rate for £ of valuation, and the amount of said relief expressed as a sum per head of the number of unemployed chargeable to the local authorities?

A statement giving the desired information, so far as it is available, is being prepared, and I will circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Housing (Cannock and Essington)

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that proposals to build houses under the Financial Provisions (Housing) Act, 1934, have been submitted to the Cannock Urban District Council, but are being held up; and whether he is able to state who is preventing the carrying out of these proposals?

I understand that in one case the Cannock Urban District Council have declined to entertain a proposal made under the Housing (Financial Provisions) Act, 1933, and in another have given a guarantee in respect of a portion of the houses in respect of which an application was submitted. I am not aware that any further proposals under that Act are at present before the Council.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that over 600 people have applied for the proposed 100 houses which the Cannock Urban District Council have refused to sanction, and can he take steps to see that houses which are so badly needed in this area are provided?

The hon. Lady will be aware that the most efficient steps for the purpose are being taken in the legislation now before the House.

asked the Minister of Health what steps, if any, are being taken to provide houses to let to the working classes in Essington and other parts of the Cannock Rural District?

The question of the provision of further houses in Essington, to which attention was drawn by my hon. Friend in her earlier question, is now under discussion by the county and district council and I hope to be able to inform her of the result at an early date. I have received no representations on this matter in regard to other parts of the rural district.

Royal Commissions and Committees (Recommendations)

asked the Prime Minister if he will state the number of cases during the last three years in which recommendations of Royal Commissions and Departmental Committees involving legislation have been accepted by the Government or the Minister concerned without resultant legislation having yet been introduced?

Many legislative proposals laid before the House arise directly or indirectly from the recommendations of Royal Commissions or Departmental Committees and it is the normal practice, when recommendations of such bodies are accepted by His Majesty's Government, for legislation to be introduced as expeditiously as may prove practicable. Pressure of Parliamentary business may, however, on occasion involve some delay in the introduction of the necessary legislation. I regret that the detailed information desired by my hon. and gallant Friend is not available.

Is it the Government's intention to bring in a Bill this Session to deal with mining royalties?

The hon. Member had better await events. As he knows this Session is pretty full up.

Cinematograph Films (Censorship)

asked the Prime Minister whether the Government have yet decided to appoint an independent Government committee to inquire into the censorship of films?

As my hon. and gallant Friend may be aware, I received a few days ago (in company with my right hon. Friends the Home Secretary and the Secretary of State for Scotland) an influential deputation on the subject of cinematograph exhibitions, which laid before me a number of representations, including a proposal that the Government should institute an inquiry into the question of censorship. Those representations, are receiving the careful consideration of my colleagues, but I am unable to make any statement at present.

In his consideration of the problem, will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that one of the chief difficulties is lack of uniformity in the censorship of American and British films, and will he represent that view to the Board of Censorship?

Private Members' Bills

asked the Prime Minister whether any decision has now been reached as to whether any time can be given during the current Session to make possible the passage of private Members' Bills of a non-controversoail character?

I would remind my hon. and gallant Friend that although the Government have been forced, on account of pressure of public business, to take the whole time of the House during the present Session, opportunities still exist for the passage into law of Bills of a non-controversial character.

Will the House, in accordance with the promise of the Lord President of the Council, be given an early opportunity of considering proposals urgently requiring legislation but not covered by Government business?

Royal Irish Constabulary Pensioners

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that in November, 1930, in response to an appeal from all parties of the House, the Government of that day accepted a Motion to increase the pensions of old pre-war Royal Irish Constabulary pensioners; that pre-war constable pensioners are in receipt of £46 per annum as against a present-day pension of £154; that a sergent's pre-war pension is £53 as against £195 at present; and that a head constable's pre-war pension is £69 as against £256 at present; will be say how much it would cost the State to double these pre-war pensions to the few pensioners who remain of these old servants of the Crown; and will he take steps to see that the pledge then given will be honoured?

As the answer is somewhat long, I propose, with my hon. Friend's permission, to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these poor old men have to fill in very out-of-date forms with regard to their income during the year, which frequently means that they are deprived entirely of their pension? If I give him an instance, will he inquire into the case of one particular man who has been informed by the paymaster that he will get no pension until 1937 as the result of this inquiry which is so much out of date?

Does not the right hon. Gentleman think it very unfair that any discrimination should be made against a loyal and patriotic body of men who have served their country, and cannot something be done to put them in the same position as others?

If my hon. Friends will examine my answer when they see it and they desire to make any further representations, I shall be very happy to receive them.

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that they are much fewer in number than on the last occasion when the matter was brought up and that the opportunity for doing them tardy justice is limited?

Following is the answer:

The motion mentioned in the first part of the question related to all pensions to which the Pensions (Increase) Acts, 1920 and 1924, applied, and not especially to those in respect of Royal Irish Constabulary service. Of the figures given in the second and third parts of the question, those in regard to pre-war pensions exclude the increases already given under the Pensions (Increase) Acts, and those in regard to post-war pensions are slightly below the maximum award possible in the case of constables and slightly above the maximum award possible in the case of head constables. In addition to the cost of the increases already given, namely about £65,000 a year, the cost of doubling the constabulary pensions to which the Pensions (Increase) Acts apply is estimated to be about £75,000 a year. Such a concession could not, however, be confined to Royal Irish Constabulary pensioners, who are only one of several classes dealt with by those Acts, and the total cost of adopting the proposal would therefore be very much more than £75,000 a year. As regards the suggestion of a pledge, the Government of the day, in stating that they would not ask the House to divide against the motion mentioned, made it clear that they could not make financial provision for the purpose of implementing it. It was further stated on 29th January, 1931, by the then Chancellor of the Exchequer that His Majesty's Government were unable to contemplate legislation to amend the Pensions (Increase) Acts. The present Government are unable to re-open that decision.

Pensions Administration, Wales

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether his attention has been drawn to a resolution passed by the Nant Conway sub-committee of the Carnarvonshire local pensions committee, stating that their decisions are considerably hampered by the fact that the reports received from the pensions officer are taken from conversations carried on in English with people of very meagre acquaintance with the English language; and what steps he proposes to take to remedy this complaint?

My attention has been drawn to the resolution referred to. Enquiries are being made in the matter and I will communicate with the hon. and gallant Member when these are completed.

Will the hon. Gentleman take particular notice of this complaint, as it is practically impossible for these old people to give correct information to an ordinary Englishman who questions them with regard to their means, and in that way help to remove what has become a very serious complaint in Welsh-speaking areas in Wales.

Agriculture

Attested Herds Scheme

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is in a position to state when it is anticipated the Government's scheme to improve the standard of the milk supply in this country by accredited herds is likely to come into force; and whether he can make a statement on this subject?

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether arrangements have yet been made to bring into force the scheme for giving special benefits to the producers of clean milk in this country; and whether he is yet in a position to make any statement on this subject?

The Government's Attested Herds Scheme as already announced comes into operation to-morrow. A further scheme, generally known as the Accredited Producers Scheme has been framed and put forward by the Milk Marketing Board. This is not, however, a scheme of the Government. I am not in a position to make any statement regarding this scheme except that I understand that discussions are proceeding between the board and the representatives of local authorities.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whom he consulted before bringing in the scheme which comes into operation to-morrow? Did he consult any body of producers or anyone who could give him any idea how to carry out the contracts?

If my hon. and gallant Friend will put down a question, I shall be glad to give him an answer?

Cattle and Beet-Sugar Subsidies

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he can now say when the schemes to take the place of the present cattle and sugar-beet subsidy are likely to be brought forward?

I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the answers I gave yesterday to questions by my hon. Friend the Member for Horncastle (Mr. Haslam) my hon. Friend the Member for the Hallam Division of Sheffield (Mr. L. Smith), and my right hon. Friend the Member for South Molton (Mr. Lambert).

Barley

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether it has been brought to his knowledge that barley for malting purposes has been bought from foreign countries on the plea that no more British barley of malting quality was available for brewing; whether he is aware that in consequence some of the British barley has been sold to brewers abroad; and what steps he proposes to take to safeguard British barley growers from foreign importation?

I have no knowledge as to how far, if at all, purchases of foreign barley and exports of British barley have been made for the reasons stated by my hon. and gallant Friend. With regard to the last part of the question, I understand that the National Farmers' Union have made an application to the Import Duties Advisory Committee for an additional duty on foreign malting barley and barley substitutes used in brewing and distilling.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether he proposes to bring in any measures to deal with the present barley difficulty.

No, Sir. Applications are actually before the Committee and the matter is sub judice, and I am afraid I cannot take any steps during this time.

Will the right hon. Gentleman ask the brewers to be loyal to the farmers in this matter?

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he can give the farmers' deliveries to date with the average prices of home-grown barley of the 1934 crop; and also the corresponding figures for the four previous seasons?

As the reply contains a statistical table, I propose, with my hon. Friend's permission, to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the reply:

The quantities sold and average prices of British barley, per hundredweight during the period 1st September, 1934, to 19th January, 1935, with comparative figures for the corresponding period in the four previous seasons, as ascertained from Returns received from 173 scheduled markets in England and Wales under the Corn Returns Act, 1882, and the Corn Sales Act, 1921, were as follow:

Eggs (Imports)

asked the Minister of Agriculture by what percentage the total import of eggs in shell from foreign countries was reduced by the standstill agreement in the period mid-March till the end of September, 1934; whether, and by how much, the imports from these countries in the quarter October-December, 1934, were reduced as compared with the corresponding quarter of 1933; and whether all exporting countries have yet agreed to reduce their exports to this country in January-March, 1935, by 10 per cent. as compared with the first quarter of 1934?

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether, in view of the fact that the imports of foreign eggs were fully maintained during October, November, and December, and that Empire supplies increased by 4 per cent., he will take emergency action to assist the home producer, pending the introduction of a marketing scheme or other long-range policy?

Total imports of eggs in shell from foreign sources showed an increase of 1.3 per cent. in the period mid-March to the end of September, 1934, and a decrease of 0.7 per cent. in the three months October-December, 1934, compared with the corresponding periods of 1933. A substantial measure of co-operation has been promised in respect of the majority of countries who have been asked to effect an actual reduction of imports of eggs in shell during the current quarter. Negotiations are still proceeding, and every effort will be made to secure general acceptance of the proposals, which are designed as a whole to secure a reduction of 10 per cent. in total foreign imports.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman consider that it would be possible in a very short time to make this country self-supporting in the matter of eggs in shell without any undue hardship to the consumer?

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman why he does not insist upon the restrictions being put on, instead of going cap in hand to other countries and asking them for an agreement? Why cannot he be firm?

It is not difficult to be firm with other countries if one is totally regardless of any repercussions.

Are not repercussions regarded a great deal too much, and do not the agricultural community suffer in consequence?

The average prices per live cwt. of 1st and 2nd quality fat cattle in England and Wales in the first three weekly periods of January, 1934 and 1935, were as follow:—

Week ended—

1934.

Week ended—

1935.

1st Quality.

2nd Quality.

1st Quality.

2nd Quality.

s.

d.

s.

d.

s.

d.

s.

d.

3rd January

41

4

36

0

2nd January

37

9

33

3

10th January

41

2

36

1

9th January

37

6

33

1

17th January

40

11

35

9

16th January

36

11

32

7

The prices quoted for 1935 are without the addition of the subsidy of 5s. per live cwt. under the Cattle Industry (Emergency Provisions) Act, 1934.

No, Sir. The standstill agreement has undoubtedly checked very considerably the increase of imports which would otherwise undoubtedly have taken place.

Fat Cattle Prices

asked the Minister of Agriculture the average price per live cwt. of first and second quality fat cattle in England and Wales for the first three weeks of the months of January, 1935 and 1934?

As the reply involves a number of figures, I propose, with my hon. Friend's permission, to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

May I ask my right hon. Friend whether, in view of the obvious failure of the Government's policy of the subsidy, he will not consider introducing a guaranteed price and financing it by a Revenue duty?

In the first place, I could not for a moment agree to the suggestion that there has been an obvious failure of Government policy, nor do I think that this would be borne out by livestock producers in any part of the United Kingdom. As to the suggestion of financing a guaranteed price by a Revenue duty, my hon. Friend cannot be unaware that an agreement such as the Ottawa Agreement, which he supported, makes that impossible.

Following is the answer:

Milk Marketing Scheme

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is aware that, under the Milk Marketing Scheme, producers in the far western region have received a price varying as much as 2½d. a gallon below that of the south-eastern region, whereas, before the scheme was introduced, liquid milk producers in the far western region received a higher price than in the south-eastern region; and, in view of all the circumstances, whether he will take steps to secure that the Milk Board shall bring about a national pool price?

I am aware that in one month, since the Milk Marketing Scheme came into force, the difference between the "pool" prices in the south-eastern region and the far western region was 2½d. per gallon, but, as my hon. Friend is no doubt aware, the average difference during the time the scheme has been in operation is 1¼d. per gallon. I was not aware that, before the scheme was introduced, liquid milk producers in the far western region as a rule received a higher price than those in the southeastern region. The question whether there should be a national "pool" price is one for the registered producers through their organisation, the Milk Marketing Board. I have no power to intervene.

Can my right hon. Friend say whether he personally would be in favour of a national pool if the Milk Marketing Board reported in its favour; would he take any steps in regard to the next stage?

I am afraid that I am not a producer under that scheme and therefore I have no right to vote.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is considerable unrest in this matter, and can he kindly say when the inquiry into the Milk Board is to take place?

It will take place as soon as we can get suitable representatives for the Re-organisation Commission whose constitution I announced a little while ago to the House.

Can my right hon. Friend explain why the best milk should have the worst price?

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the southeastern region do not take that view, and that they consider that too much is already taken out of their pool and given to western and north-western regions?

Meat Import Restrictions

asked the Minister of Agriculture what progress has now been made in the negotiations that have been carried on with a view to limiting the amount of meat imported into this country, both from the Dominions and from foreign countries; and whether any legislative action will be necessary in this respect?

As regards the first part of the question, I would refer to the reply I gave to my right hon. Friend the Member for South Molton (Mr. Lambert) and others on 28th January, a copy of which I am sending my hon. and gallant Friend. In reply to the second part, no legislative action is necessitated by the arrangements so far completed for the regulation of imports of meat.

Land Drainage Acts

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether a Bill to amend the Land Drainage Acts is to be introduced this session?

Can the right hon. Gentleman say what is the present position with regard to the draft amending Bill?

Sugar Marketing Committee (Report)

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is now in a position to state when the Committee presided over by Mr. Wilfrid Greene, K.C., will make its report?

I understand that the Committee hope to present their report by the end of February.

Fishing Industry (Mesh Regulations)

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether there is now any prospect of obtaining international agreement to limit the size of mesh used by foreign trawlers fishing off the south-west coast of England; and, if not, whether he will repeal the order which restricts the British trawlers?

The International Council for the Exploration of the Sea passed a unanimous resolution at its meeting in June last recommending that all countries should adopt as a minimum the mesh regulations in force in Great Britain. The resolution was communicated to the Governments of the 14 countries represented in the Council, and I have reason to believe is being seriously considered by them. One country has introduced regulations substantially equivalent to our own, and I hope that others will do so before long. In general, I think the mesh regulations have proved in themselves advantageous to British interests.

Scotland

Harbours, Piers and Ferries Bill

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when it is intended to introduce the Harbours, Piers and Ferries (Scotland) Bill?

I regret that at present there does not appear to be much prospect of Parliamentary time being available for this Bill during the current Session.

Grey Seals

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether any order permitting the killing of grey seals during the close season between the 1st September and 31st December last has been made in Scotland since the passing of the Grey Seals Protection Act, 1932?

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether any survey is being made to see whether there is an increase or a decrease in the number of seals?

No, Sir. There is no present survey being made, nor have we received any complaints from the local authorities or others on the subject.

Is it not necessary that such a survey shall be made during the breeding season to see if the herds are increasing or not?

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether any, and, if so, what steps have been taken by local authorities in Scotland to promote the destruction of grey seals other than in the close season during the years 1933 and 1934.

It is understood that certain Salmon Fishery District Boards offer rewards for the destruction of seals generally, but that otherwise no action is taken by local authorities for that purpose.

Poor Relief

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will state the total cost of Poor Law relief in Scotland on 15th December, or nearest convenient date, in the following years, 1932, 1933, and 1934?

As the answer involves a number of figures, I propose, with the hon. Member's permission, to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the answer:

The total cost of Poor Relief can only be given for the financial years 1932–33 and 1933–34, as the statements of expenditure with regard to the relief of the ordinary poor are received by the Department only in respect of each financial year.

For the years 1932–33 and 1933–34, the total expenditure, and the average weekly expenditure, on the relief of sane poor of all classes (able-bodied, ordinary and indoor) was as follows: The amount of outdoor relief paid to destitute able-bodied unemployed persons for the week including the 15th December in each of the years mentiond was as follows:

South Africa (Native States)

asked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether he has considered the memorial from Chief Tshekedi Khama praying that the three native States of Bechuanaland, Swaziland and Basutoland shall not be handed over to the Union of South Africa; and if he is in a position to make a statement on this matter?

I have seen the statement by the Acting Chief Tshekedi Khama which has been issued as a pamphlet and is on sale to the public. It is described as a "Statement to the British Parliament and. People." On the general question, I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the statement as to the position of His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom which I made in reply to a question addressed to me by the hon. Member for Rothwell (Mr. Lunn) on the 30th April, 1934.

Post Office

Reorganisation (Wales)

asked the Postmaster-General whether, assuming that in the reorganisation of the Post Office which is now taking place Wales is to be considered as a unit in the scheme, he will establish a regional headquarters in Cardiff, thus following the practice of other Government Departments in regarding this city as the administrative capital of the principality?

I shall be glad to consider my hon. Friend's suggestion if and when the question arises. It is proposed to set up two regions, one in Scotland and one in North East England by way of experiment. I feel sure it will be agreed that it will be better to defer consideration of the layout of the other regions and of the location of their headquarters until experience has been had of the working of these experimental regions.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say when he proposes to set up the offices in Scotland and other places?

When the question arises of establishing a centre in Wales, will the right hon. Gentleman consult the Welsh people as to what centre they would like to have?

Will he also bear in mind that it is only Cardiff people who have an exaggerated view of the importance of their city?

Will the right hon. Gentleman give consideration to the establishment of this centre in Pontypridd?

Diplomatic and Consular Services (Women)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs at what date the report of the committee on the admission of women to the diplomatic and consular services is to be published?

The matter is still under consideration and I am unable to state the date on which the report of the committee will be published. A decision to publish it has, however, been taken and it is hoped that the necessary arrangements may be made shortly.

Mexico and Brazil (British Investors)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has noted the destruction of British savings by the repudiation of pre-war obligations contracted in London by the Mexican and Brazilian Governments; and, seeing that international trade and employment cannot be revived while foreign Governments repudiate obligations incurred here for the social and commercial development of their countries, will he take steps to remove this impediment to the restoration of British export trade?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary gave yesterday to his questions regarding the foreign debt of the Chilean and Mexican Governments.

Register of Voters

asked the Home Secretary whether, in view of the virtual disfranchisement of a large number of electors under the present system of yearly registers, steps will be taken to revert to the practice of half-yearly registers; and whether, in the event of the necessary legislation not being passed during this Parliament, steps will be taken by Order to ensure the compilation of a register which will be up-to-date at the time of the General Election?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative, and as regards the second part I can only say that there is no power by Order to modify the statutory arrangements under which the register comes into force on the 15th October, after which no alterations can be made in it until the following register is prepared.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the reply he has given means the virtual disfranchisement of large numbers of working people who remove from their address during the course of the year, and that it ill accords with the professions of satisfaction in their record which the Government are so frequently making?

India (Customs Discussions)

asked the Secretary of State for India whether any discussions or exchanges of views are at present taking place, or have recently taken place, as is suggested to be the case in Vol. I (Part I), paragraph 265, of the report of the Joint Committee, between the Government of India and any of the Indian States in relation either to sea customs and/or internal customs; and, if so, which States have thus been approached or involved, and with what results?

I am not aware of any discussions with the Indian States with regard to internal customs. Discussions have been taking place with the maritime States of Kathiawar and with Cochin and Travancore in respect of sea customs, but pending the conclusion of the discussions I am not in a position to make any statement.

Television (Government Decision)

( by Private Notice ) asked the Postmaster-General whether he has considered the report of the Television Committee, and what action he proposes to take in the matter?

Yes, Sir. For the reasons set out in the Committee's report it is desirable that early action should be taken. The Government have considered and approved the general recommendations of the Committee, and I am about to take the necessary steps to implement them. In view of the close relationship between sound and television broadcasting, the British Broadcasting Corporation will be entrusted with the conduct of the broadcast television service, and the necessary licence will be issued to them in due course. I am satisfied that it will be in the public interest to adopt this course; and the Corporation have assured me that they are prepared to undertake this additional service and to do their utmost to make it a success, and, as I shall state later, they are making a substantial contribution to the inauguration of the service for which I desire to express the appreciation of the Government.

Steps will be taken with a view to the establishment of a television station in London during the latter part of this year; and in the light of the experience obtained in its operation, consideration will be given to the establishment later of additional stations in other parts of the country. So far as the London station is concerned, the Baird Television Company, Limited, and the Marconi-E.M.I. Television Company will be given the opportunity—subject to certain important conditions specified in the report —to supply the necessary apparatus for the operation of their respective systems at this station. It will be a condition that each of the two companies shall undertake to grant a licence to any responsible manufacturer to use its patents for the manufacture of television receiving sets in this country on royalty terms, which will be settled in advance by agreement, or if necessary by arbitration. In establishing further stations advantage will be taken of any improvements in television which may have come to light.

It is estimated that the cost of the service up to the 31st December, 1936, when the present Charter of the British Broadcasting Corporation is due to expire, will be some £180,000; and this amount will be borne by the revenue from the existing 10s. wireless licence fee. The Treasury and the British Broadcasting Corporation have agreed to contribute the sum required for this period in equal shares from the respective portions of the licence revenue accruing to them on the existing basis of allocation. I propose to appoint immediately an advisory committee to plan and guide the initiation and early development of the service; and I am glad to say that Lord Selsdon has accepted my invitation to be chairman of the committee, and that Sir Frank Smith, Secretary of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, will also be a member and will be chairman of the technical sub-committee.

I wish to emphasise that, whilst high definition television has now reached such a stage of development as to justify these first steps being taken towards the establishment of a public television service, many difficulties will have to be overcome before a service can be provided on a national scale. The television service will have to be developed gradually. It will be an adjunct to the present sound broadcasting ser-vise, and will in no way replace it. In conclusion, I should like to express, on behalf of the Government, our indebtedness to Lord Selsdon and his committee for their thorough investigation and the valuable recommendations they have unanimously made, after hearing evidence from the interests concerned, and examining many television systems both in this country and abroad.

Can the Postmaster-General say for how long the concession is to be granted to the Marconi and Baird companies?

It will be for two years, that is until the expiration of the present licence of the British Broadcasting Corporation.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether he is adopting the recommendation that there shall be no increase in the existing licence fee of 10s.?

Business of the House

Monday: Second Reading of the Herring Industry Bill and Committee stage of the necessary Financial Resolution. Further progress will be made with the Supreme Court of Judicature (Amendment) Bill (Lords); and, if there is time, the Second Reading of the Metropolitan Police (Borrowing Powers) Bill.

Tuesday: Committee stage of Supplementary Estimates beginning with Class VI, Vote 9, Beet-Sugar Subsidy, and Vote 4, Department of Overseas Trade; Report stage of the Supplementary Estimates for the Unemployment Assistance Board; Distressed Areas Grants and Special Areas Fund.

Wednesday: Second Reading of the Government of India Bill, which will be continued on Thursday and Friday. The Debate will be concluded on Monday, the 11th February.

If there is time other Orders may be taken.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to reconsider the business for Tuesday and to put the Report stage of the Supplementary Estimates connected with the Unemployment Assistance Board, Distressed Areas Grants and Special Areas Fund, as the first Vote to be considered? We are expecting a statement from the Minister of Labour.

I have no objection to that transference, but I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to see if the arrangement can be made through the ordinary channels.

In that case will the Prime Minister take care that the Beet-Sugar Subsidy is taken at a reasonable hour instead of at an hour when it is impossible to get a Debate?

That also I think may be the subject of conversations through the usual channels.

Motion made, and Question put,

"That the Proceedings on Government Business be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[ The Prime Minister. ]

The House divided: Ayes, 242; Noes, 38.

Division No. 39.]

AYES.

[3.50 p.m.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.)

Lumley, Captain Lawrence R.

Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.)

Eady, George H.

MacAndrew, Lieut.-Col. C.G. (Partick)

Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir William (Armagh)

Eden, Rt. Hon. Anthony

MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr)

Applin, Lieut.-Col. Reginald V. K.

Elliot, Rt. Hon. Walter

McConnell, Sir Joseph

Apsley, Lord

Ellis, Sir R. Geoffrey

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham)

Aske, Sir Robert William

Elliston, Captain George Sampson

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Assheton, Ralph

Elmley, Viscount

McEwen, Captain J. H. F.

Atholl, Duchess of

Emmott, Charles E. G. C.

McKie, John Hamilton

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Emrys-Evans, P. V.

McLean, Major Sir Alan

Balfour, Capt. Harold (I. of Thanet)

Entwistle, Cyril Fullard

McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston)

Balniel, Lord

Evans, Capt. Arthur (Cardiff, S.)

Maitland, Adam

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Evans, R. T. (Carmarthen)

Makins, Brigadier-General Ernest

Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar

Everard, W. Lindsay

Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

Beauchamp, Sir Brograve Campbell

Fermoy, Lord

Martin, Thomas B.

Benn, Sir Arthur Shirley

Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

Mason, David M. (Edinburgh, E.)

Bernays, Robert

Fleming, Edward Lascelles

Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John

Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman

Foot, Isaac (Cornwall, Bodmin)

Meller, Sir Richard James

Blaker, Sir Reginald

Fremantle, Sir Francis

Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

Blindell, James

Galbraith, James Francis Wallace

Mitchell, Harold P. (Br'tfd & Chisw'k)

Borodale, Viscount

Ganzoni, Sir John

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Boulton, W. W.

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale

Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.

Gluckstein, Louis Halle

Monsell, Rt. Hon. Sir B. Eyres

Brass, Captain Sir William

Goff, Sir Park

Moore, Lt.-Col. Thomas C. R. (Ayr)

Briscoe, Capt. Richard George

Goodman, Colonel Albert W.

Morris, Owen Temple (Cardiff, E.)

Broadbent, Colonel John

Grattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas

Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Graves, Marjorie

Muirhead, Lieut.-Colonel A. J.

Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

Grimston, R. V.

Munro, Patrick

Brown, Ernest (Leith)

Gunston, Captain D. W.

Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C. (Berks., Newb'y)

Guy, J. C. Morrison

Normand, Rt. Hon. Wilfrid

Browne, Captain A. C.

Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

Nunn, William

Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)

Oman, Sir Charles William C.

Bullock, Captain Malcolm

Hamilton, Sir R. W. (Orkney & Zetl'nd)

Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William G. A.

Butler, Richard Austen

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Orr Ewing, I. L.

Cadogan, Hon. Edward

Harbord, Arthur

Palmer, Francis Noel

Caine, G. R. Hall-

Harris, Sir Percy

Patrick, Colin M.

Campbell-Johnston, Malcolm

Harvey, Major Sir Samuel (Totnes)

Pearson, William G.

Caporn, Arthur Cecil

Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.

Peat, Charles U.

Carver, Major William H.

Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth)

Perkins, Walter R. D.

Cayzer, Maj. Sir H. R. (P'rtsm'th, S.)

Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

Peters, Dr. Sidney John

Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)

Holdsworth, Herbert

Petherick, M.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston)

Hopkinson, Austin

Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, B'nstaple)

Chapman, Col. R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Hornby, Frank

Potter, John

Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.)

Howard, Tom Forrest

Powell, Lieut.-Col. Evelyn G. H.

Chorlton, Alan Ernest Leofric

Howitt, Dr. Alfred B.

Pybus, Sir John

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Hurst, Sir Gerald B.

Ramsay, Capt. A. H. M. (Midlothian)

Colfox, Major William Philip

Iveagh, Countess of

Ramsay T. B. W. (Western Isles)

Collins, Rt. Hon. Sir Godfrey

Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C.)

Ramsbotham, Herwald

Conant, R. J. E.

James, Wing.-Com. A. W. H.

Ray, Sir William

Cook, Thomas A.

Janner, Barnett

Rea, Walter Russell

Cooper, A. Duff

Jesson, Major Thomas E.

Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter)

Copeland, Ida

Johnstone, Harcourt (S. Shields)

Reid, Capt. A. Cunningham-

Courthope, Colonel Sir George L.

Jones, Lewis (Swansea, West)

Reid, David D. (County Down)

Crooke, J. Smedley

Kerr, Hamilton W.

Remer, John R.

Cross, R. H.

Knight, Holford

Renwick, Major Gustav A.

Crossley, A. C.

Knox, Sir Alfred

Rhys, Hon. Charles Arthur U.

Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. C. C.

Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton

Rickards, George William

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

Ropner, Colonel L.

Denman, Hon. R. D.

Law, Richard K. (Hull, S.W.)

Ross, Ronald D.

Denville, Alfred

Leckie, J. A.

Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

Dickie, John P.

Leighton, Major B. E. P.

Runge, Norah Cecil

Dixey, Arthur C. N.

Lennox-Boyd, A. T.

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Doran, Edward

Levy, Thomas

Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury)

Drewe, Cedric

Lindsay, Noel Ker

Rutherford, John (Edmonton)

Duckworth, George A. V.

Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Cunliffe-

Rutherford, Sir John Hugo (Liverp'l)

Dugdale, Captain Thomas Lionel

Lloyd, Geoffrey

Salmon, Sir Isidore

Duggan, Hubert John

Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander

Salt, Edward W.

Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham)

Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart

Stewart, William J. (Belfast, S.)

Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)

Scone, Lord

Stones, James

Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)

Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.

Stourton, Hon. John J.

Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.

Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir Murray F.

Watt, Captain George Steven H.

Skelton, Archibald Noel

Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart

Wedderburn, Henry James Scrymgeour-

Smith, Sir J. Walker- (Barrow-in-F.)

Sutcliffe, Harold

Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

Somerset, Thomas

Taylor, Vice-Admiral E.A. (P'dd'gt'n, S.)

Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)

Somervell, Sir Donald

Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)

Wilson, Clyde T. (West Toxteth)

Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor)

Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)

Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir H. Kingsley

Soper, Richard

Thorp, Linton Theodore

Wood, Sir Murdoch McKenzie (Banff)

Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E.

Train, John

Worthington, Dr. John V.

Southby, Commander Archibald R. J.

Tree, Ronald

Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (S'v'noaks)

Spencer, Captain Richard A.

Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.

Stanley Hon. O. F. G. (Westmorland)

Turton, Robert Hugh

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Stevenson, James

Wallace, Sir John (Dunfermline)

Sir Frederick Thomson and Sir

George Penny.

NOES.

Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

Griffiths, George A. (Yorks, W. Riding)

Parkinson, John Allen

Attlee, Clement Richard

Grundy, Thomas W.

Smith, Tom (Normanton)

Banfield, John William

Hicks, Ernest George

Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, North)

Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield)

Jenkins, Sir William

Thorne, William James

Buchanan, George

John, William

Tinker, John Joseph

Cocks, Frederick Seymour

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

West, F. R.

Cripps, Sir Stafford

Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

Williams, David (Swansea, East)

Daggar, George

Leonard, William

Williams, Edward John (Ogmore)

Davies, David L. (Pontypridd)

Logan, David Gilbert

Williams, Dr. John H. (Llanelly)

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Lunn, William

Wilmot, John

Dobbie, William

Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

Maxton, James.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Arthur

Milner, Major James

Mr. Paling and Mr. D. Graham.

Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan)

Owen, Major Goronwy

Message from the Lords

Western Australia,—That they have come to the following Resolution, namely: "That it is desirable that a Joint Committee of both Houses be appointed to consider the petition of the State of Western Australia for a Bill to effectuate the withdrawal of the people of Western Australia from the Federal Commonwealth of Australia, and to report whether the same is proper to be received."

Orders of the Day

Housing Bill

Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment to Question [30 th January ], "That the Bill be now read a Second time";

Which Amendment was, to leave out from "That" to the end of the Question, and to add instead thereof:

"this House, realising that the existing evil of overcrowding is primarily due to the shortage of houses available for letting at rents within the compass of working-class incomes, is prepared to take all necessary measures to cope with a situation which has been aggravated by the policy hitherto pursued by His Majesty's Government, but is of opinion that the legislation now proposed involves unnecessary delay in the provision of houses, provides inadequate financial assistance to local authorities, entails unjustifiable increases in the payment of public moneys to property owners, and seeks to encourage local authorities to transfer their responsibilities to unrepresentative organisations."—[ Mr. Greenwood. ]

Question again proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

4.0 p.m.

It is now many years since I had the honour of speaking in this House on the subject of housing. I must say that after all this time I still feel a very warm corner in my heart for any Minister who has to deal with this difficult subject. I am one of those who, perhaps, suffered from it, but it may well be that in the vicissitudes of political change, seeing the character of the Bill we have in front of us, the right hon. Gentleman opposite may be spared that sad experience, for I shall have something to say in the course of my speech as to the delays which will necessarily arise. As I was sitting here yesterday and heard the right hon. Gentleman with a serene detachment, which was altogether charming, recommending subsidies, in spite of all that he has said, after three years' experience of the subject at the Ministry of Health, there sprang into my mind—I may say that I only learnt shortly before Christmas—say, six weeks ago—that the right hon. Gentleman had really become a convert once more to subsidies—there sprang into my mind, I say, an old story which was told in the village where I was brought up. There was a man there, an amiable Hercules of a fellow on whom, I remember, I used to look with admiration as a boy as he came round the farm. This man spent his working-time going round to the threshing machines, and at other times he employed his abilities in pointing out to sinners the errors of their ways. On one occasion, it was said, in the village where he was conducting a meeting in the usual hearty and some-what boisterous fashion, a young woman attended, and in the course of the meeting it emerged that under his ministration she had been converted six weeks before. Thereupon he exclaimed, or rather shouted, interpreting the Scriptures in the Lincolnshire vernacular:

I must say that the right hon. Gentleman did present the case in a highly skilful fashion, and I admired the way in which he had forgotten the past. The hon. Lady the Member for East Islington (Miss Cazalet) chided the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) because he had dealt with the Bill in a party fashion, but, although she reprimanded him, she still seemed to enjoy doing the same thing herself for quite a considerable time. However, I will not follow her in that respect—I have too much sympathy with the right hon. Gentleman. I will deal with the Bill as it is, and before I come to what I believe will be the main obstacles of the Bill, and which will prove its undoing, I should like to say a few words about minor but still very important matters. The definition which the right hon. Gentleman gives to overcrowding will, I think, stop action in a very large number of cases where action is urgently required, because under the Bill as it stands the only action that can be taken, so far as I can see—I am not talking about unfortunate individuals who happen to be either landlords or occupiers of premises—that is neither here nor there—but action can only be taken, under Clause 12, for a re-development scheme provided that an area contains 50 or more working-class houses, and that houses which are overcrowded or unfit for habitation constitute in the aggregate one-half or more of the working class houses in that area. Then the industrial and social conditions of the district must be such as are specified in the Clause, and so on.

It means that the only class of case in which you can have action to relieve overcrowding will be areas in which more than half the houses are of a working-class character, and in which, also, more than half the houses are overcrowded or unfit for habitation. If you look at any town or city in the country, and you are to have an area to which that definition can be applied, the classes of cases affected must be circumscribed and very limited, and you cannot get in a limited area of that kind a re-development scheme. It gives you no elbow-room for making new streets or anything of that kind. It will give you no opportunity for replanning the area, because the area is restricted by the terms of the Bill.

The next criticism on that which I have to make is that it necessarily shuts out from any assistance under the Bill towns and boroughs up and down the country where this definition could not be applied at all in any part. There are large numbers of cases of that kind, and their only hope of obtaining any assistance whatever is under Clause 29, where, it will be seen, a local authority can provide such housing accommodation either in flats or houses, but they will only receive help after the Ministry is satisfied that the expenditure already incurred by the local authority under the enactments relating to housing in relation to their financial resources would constitute an undue burden. Who is to know in advance whether the Minister will or will not decide that action in such case will constitute an undue burden on the authority? They will not know, and, if they do not know where they are, they will not proceed with a scheme, and, in any case, houses which may be dilapidated but not technically overcrowded are automatically shut out from the whole Bill. There are hundreds of thousands of these houses. As a matter of fact, I am not sure that in the aggregate the dilapidated and unfit houses which are not technically overcrowded according to the definition of this Bill, would not exceed the number of those which would be described as overcrowded. All that mass of houses is automatically shut out by the terms of the Bill.

Then take the rural side of the Bill. The right hon. Member for North Cornwall (Sir F. Acland) yesterday told us about some of the rural areas, and I will not repeat what he said, but if the House will look at Clause 30, it will be seen that in the rural areas the assistance provided by the Bill is limited to cases where it is an abatement of overcrowding. You will find that difficult of ascertainment even in the case of the most dilapidated sets of cottages in our villages. If you take the number of square feet in a cottage and the number of people living there, and apply the test of this Bill, the cottage will not technically be overcrowded, and, as a matter of fact, in most of the villages where the cottages ought to be pulled down and replaced, they are not technically overcrowded, and the whole of that section of houses is entirely shut out from the scope of the Bill. That shows that the extent of the houses which will be covered by the Bill is much more extensive than newspaper headlines might lead us to suppose.

I come to the amount of the subsidy. The unfortunate thing is that owing to the passage of the Financial Resolution, we shall none of us be able, either upstairs or downstairs as the case may be, to venture to suggest any alteration in the scale of subsidy, but I am quite sure that if land is to cost the astronomical figures which are talked about in this Bill, say £3,000 an acre or more, and the subsidy is limited to £6 a year per flat, unless there is a prodigious and quite unhealthy number of flats put on the land per acre, it will mean that the balance of the subsidy left to subsidise rents will be infinitesimal. On that, the Under-Secretary, in answer to a question yesterday, said something about the number of flats that should be erected per acre in these flat schemes. I should be glad if he would tell us when he replies what is in their mind, because it is of first-class importance that there should be some provision in this Bill prescribing a limit to the number which are to be provided on the sites.

I am afraid that the Minister is on a slippery slope—a downward slope with regard to the conditions. I, myself, was assailed years ago all ends and sides because I insisted on there being a bath and other conditions. Nevertheless, I still think those houses are standing the test pretty well in the main. Our standards have become a good deal degraded since, but I am afraid that they will be much more degraded in this Bill if we have the kind of houses on the sites about which the right hon. Gentleman spoke yesterday. Therefore, in Committee or some appropriate way I hope that he will do something to introduce into this Bill conditions affecting not only the number of dwellings on the site, but also accommodation in those dwellings. An unfortunate mother of a family having to go up to a five-storey flat and try to find some accommodation for the pram and get rid of the household rubbish is one of the most dismal experiences anyone can have. Those of us who have very extensive first-hand experience of this kind of problem know how wretched the whole state of affairs will certainly become, and we do not want to perpetuate that in this Bill. If these flats are to be a certain height, they certainly ought to have lifts and bathroom accommodation, and it should be prescribed as a condition attaching to the grants which will be made by the Minister.

Some of my hon. Friends will deal with other details of this matter later but I want now to approach the question of compensation and of what will actually happen in the operation of the Bill. I invite the House to look in the first place at Clause 12. As I have said, an area is to be defined, after inquiry, as an area to be re-developed and there are four conditions attaching to that provision. If hon. Members look at the next Clause they will see that within six months after a local authority have passed a resolution "under the last foregoing section" determining that an area is to be redeveloped, certain things are to happen. Notices have to be sent out and all the rest of it. First the local authority has to make up its mind and hold an inquiry as to whether a certain area will or will not be specified as an area for redevelopment. Then six months must elapse. The wording is "within six months" but we may take it that it will be six months, in view of all that is to happen.

Under Clause 14 they will then seek the Minister's approval for certain orders for the compulsory acquisition of land. That is to be "within an appropriate period." The appropriate period with regard to land in the area to be redeveloped is six months but for the land which is required outside the area for the accommodation of the people who will be displaced it is two years. First, there is the inquiry as to what is or what is not to be a re-developed area. That is the first six months—the issue of notices and the rest of it. Then there is the next six months—the application for the compulsory order. A right hon. Gentleman opposite suggested that this was going to be an electioneering Bill.

I am only going to make this comment that in view of the headlines that we have read in the papers that was an impression which was not, perhaps, improperly created. In view of the adulation which the Bill has received from certain people that may well be the case, but, as one who has had to do with this dismal and difficult business—to my sorrow—I am perfectly certain of this: It will be 18 months at the earliest from the time of the passage of the Bill before anything really material is going to happen under it and if an Election is postponed as long as that the local authorities will have something quite different from blessings for the right hon. Gentleman. They will then be in a sea of troubles in connection with the complicated questions which will arise out of the application of Clauses 12 to 14. Now we come to the core of the matter, namely what it is going to cost. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman being as he is highly reputed in matters of finance will be very careful to scrutinise the costs although it may well be that he will not be there to scrutinise them. It may happen that he will get out of the trouble which I had. It is very likely.

The right hon. Gentleman is not out of the trouble yet.

I know how difficult the subject is and I say that neither the right hon. Gentleman nor any successor of his for the next 20 years will be out of trouble. I am only saying now that as far as this particular Bill is a creator of trouble, in 18 months time, the trouble will arise over Clause 16. The test as to whether a local authority will do anything or not will be how much it will cost to build the houses and to acquire the land and how much subsidy they will get from the Exchequer and all the rest of it. Those are the questions which will decide whether they are going to proceed or not. When I came to examine this question of compensation I was horrified to read Clause 16. I wonder whether the right hon. Gentleman knows what he is asking the House to do in that Clause. Perhaps I may be impertinent enough to give the House a little history in connection with this matter. Clause 16 is putting the acquisition of land principle in these areas back to 1883. It is reversing the whole of the improvements brought about in the Acquisition of Land Act of 1919, for which I was responsible and which altered the basis of valuation.

This is the point of difference. Prior to the Act of 1919 when a valuation was ascertained with respect to property compulsorily to be acquired, the position was governed by a decision in a case which arose between the Manchester Corporation and the owner of some land on the side of Lake Thirlmere. A decision was given in court that the value should be not the value of the land to the seller but the value which it would possess when the purchasers had used it for the purposes for which they proposed to use it. That case was in April, 1883. I looked up my records this morning. It was constantly before us in 1919 in connection with the drafting of the Measure of that year. It was a case of the Manchester Corporation against Countess Ossalinska. The land was agricultural land, poor land, worth at a generous allowance £10 an acre but the landowner claimed that to the Manchester Corporation it was worth much more than the agricultural value—that to them it was worth the value which it would possess as a collecting ground for water. That was the value on which the valuer decided his award and the result was that that lucky lady got in compensation an amount which was scores of times the value of the land. That was the reason why local authorities were practically estopped for many years from acquiring land under any clearance schemes at all even under the powers provided by Mr. John Burns' Act.

Let me apply this to the present Bill. If hon. Members will look at Clause 16 they will see that where land is purchased compulsorily for re-development the compensation payable is to be assessed in accordance with the provisions of Part II of the Third Schedule to the 1930 Act subject to a modification of the provisions in paragraph 4. On referring to the Schedule of the Act of 1930 we find that paragraph 4 states:

In such a case the seller has no right whatever to that added value which is due entirely to the development of the area by the local authority. These few lines of the Bill so far as this class of acquisition is concerned reverse the whole law of the land and put us back 50 years. I do not wonder that some property owners are chuckling over the fuss which they made at Bristol. They have got something out of it. But I have this to say, that I am sure no local authority can or will operate this Bill under these conditions. It would make the whole thing prohibitive. All that one can say about such a proposal is that it beggars description.

I leave that part of the Bill as it is in all its staggering grimness and I come to a relatively minor matter, but one which also creates a great difference. Under Clause 17 it is provided that in so far as suitable accommodation is required for people who have been living in the re-development area to be provided outside the area, provision is to be made in advance of the displacements from the area. The local authority in that case will find itself in a cleft stick. It will say to the Minister, "We are perfectly prepared to go on with the scheme. We shall want to provide a certain amount of accommodation outside the area for the people who will be displaced in the course of the re-development." But until the scheme is in operation they can receive no grant for the provison of that accommodation outside the area, that being conditional upon the re-development of the area and the expenditure to be incurred on the area—which could not in the nature of things then have been determined. The result will be that the local authority will be held up by Clause 17 where they have to house people outside the area. In regard to the case of London my hon. Friend the Member for North Lambeth (Mr. G. R. Strauss) spoke with authority yesterday and I can well believe that the cost of acquisitions in London will be increased a great deal more than 50 per cent. if Clause 16 is to operate, and certainly that Clause will mean a delay of more than six months.

Those are two minor matters in connection with compensation to which I draw attention and which no doubt represent the first fruits of Bristol. They are alterations of the law as it is now applied and if the House will refer to Clause 58 they will see that substantial alterations are being made in the proviso relating to the acquisition of houses which have been condemned, by reason of their bad arrangement or the narrowness or bad arrangement of the streets, as dangerous or injurious to the health of the inhabitants of the area. The Chancellor of the Exchequer is the parent of this proposal. In the Bill for which I was responsible 14 years ago it was provided that where the house itself was uninhabitable, compensation would not be paid and it was extended by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to where the house had been condemned. But in this case not only is compensation to be paid; it is to be made retrospective. I have never known of an Act of Parliament which allowed settlements for compensation which had been arrived at to be re-opened, but in this case it says that the proviso to the Clause which deals with this matter:

There is a worse one, however, to follow. It is true that it is only a small piece and nothing compared with Clause 16, but in Clause 59 we have something to which I do not wonder the right hon. Gentleman did not refer in his opening speech, because there it says: I agree that there is this redeeming feature about the Clause, that it does limit the amount of spoil that the person will be able to obtain, but here is a house which has been condemned as unfit for human habitation, and notwithstanding that it has sanitary defects, if the landlord can show, I suppose, that he has kept the tiles on, or that there are not holes in the wall, that is to say, that "it has been well maintained," whatever that may mean, he will be paid for it. Although it has been condemned as unfit for habitation and may teem with every imaginable abomination, although it may be swarming with bugs, yet, if he can show that the structure has been well maintained, notwithstanding its sanitary defects, that is to say, that it may have no drains, no water supply, no anything, that is not to be taken into account at all. He can still receive compensation. This is going back on another piece of the Acts of 1925 and 1919. It has, as I say, this redeeming feature, that the payment for these abominations is limited in the Clause, otherwise the principle is just as vicious.

I am sure that when any local authority has regard, as it will have regard, to the limiting conditions in the Bill, to the limitations upon the definition of an area to be re-developed, to all the procedure that has to be gone through before they can get an order at all, and, worse still, to the fictitious and undetermined compensation which will have to be paid under Clause 16, I have not a doubt whatever that—

The right hon. Gentleman has referred once more to Clause 16, and I am very reluctant to interrupt. It is not at all unnatural, and I can quite understand it, but he has completely misunderstood and, in consequence, unconsciously, quite unintentionally, misrepresented to the House the effect of the words in Clause 16 to which he has referred, namely:

"For the reference to increased value given by the demolition of any buildings, there shall be substituted"

and so on. The right hon. Gentleman is under the impression that that is a provision for increasing the compensation which can be given to the owner, but if he will examine it more closely he will find that this provision is for the purpose of reducing the compensation that can be given to the owner. It is a provision for reducing the compensation which can be given to the owner in respect of other land than that which is actually under consideration; it is, in fact, a provision for securing betterment to the advantage of the local authority, and it is exactly the converse to what he says.

With the greatest possible respect to the right hon. Gentleman, before I made my statement I took care, of course, to obtain very good advice, and happily, owing to previous experience, I know where I can get it. I am quite sure that the interpretation that I have placed upon that is the right interpretation. I am delighted to find that it is not the Minister's intention, and I hope we shall have his co-operation on the Committee stage in putting it right, but I am sure that I am right in my interpretation. Read it again:

"For the reference to increased value given by demolition of any buildings, there shall be substituted a reference to increased value given by the proposed re-development of the area in accordance with the redevelopment plan."

It does not say anything about land anywhere else.

No. Of course, the right hon. Gentleman cannot really get a clear apprehension of these complicated provisions of the law, or give a clear idea of them to the House, unless he looks at the paragraph to which this Clause refers. If he will look at paragraph 4 in Part II of the Third Schedule to the Housing Act of 1930, he will see—and it will put the House in possession of the full position—the following:

"The arbitrator shall have regard to and make an allowance in respect of any increased value which, in his opinion, will be given to other premises of the same owner by the demolition by the local authority of any buildings."

That is an allowance by way of reduction, as regards the premises under assessment, in respect of the increased value for other premises. In fact, it is a working out of a complicated but intelligible law of adjustment for the reduction of compensation to the advantage of the purchaser.

With great respect, I am still unrepentant. I am only too glad, however, that the Minister has stated the case as he has, because I am sure that on this most vital matter he will be willing to reconsider the words with a view to making them mean what he says they mean, on the Committee stage.

I am sure he will. As the Bill stands, this particular Clause, with which I am fully familiar—as a matter of fact, it was taken from a provision of the Act which I myself piloted through—says that, subject to modification, for the reference to increased value "there shall be substituted." I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman—and those whom I have consulted were quite clear on the matter—that the substitution eliminates this necessary inclusion of other buildings, and that clearly must be so if the substitution means anything at all. Therefore, so far as the other buildings are concerned, if it is property elsewhere that will be enhanced or bettered and, therefore, the arbitrator has to take that into account, then I am sure the Minister will recognise the first-class importance of making that clear in the body of the Bill, because I have not a doubt—although I am not a lawyer, I have had a good soaking in this kind of thing—that if that went to the courts we should find the interpretation given to it which I have represented to the House, and I am only too delighted that this representation has brought the issue as far as it has.

If we have regard to the complicated series or orders, provisions, limitations, and the rest of it which this Bill contains, I am certain, first, that it will accomplish very little and, secondly, that the right hon. Gentleman need have no anxiety as to the troubles in which he may be involved in the course of the operation of the Bill whenever the next general election occurs. It will be long after that before anything will happen under the Bill. There will be many troubles to many people, perhaps himself included, though I hope not, arising out of it, but with the best intention in the world, I confess that the limitation of effort on the part of the local authorities makes me exceedingly disappointed and not very hopeful that very material results will arise from this Bill.

4.43 p.m.

I am glad to follow in the steps of the right hon. Mem- ber for Swindon (Dr. Addison), seeing that I was one of his most ardent supporters at the time when he introduced his Bill in 1919, not only as a Member of this House, but also as chairman of the London County Council Housing Committee, which had to sift his proposals through with a fine tooth comb to put them into effect, and eventually, privately with him, to warn him as regards the expensiveness of the Measure, which required reduction and treatment, and he will remember that he was already taking steps for some time before he went out of office to see in what way it would be possible to reduce the expenditure. Therefore, he agrees that it was an extravagant scheme at that time. I do not mean extravagant in initiation, but that it required curtailment as the financial conditions of the country changed and the original idea no longer held good.

I do not want to talk claptrap, but, as a matter of fact, time shows the value or the reverse of any particular principle, and everyone who looks into the matter knows perfectly well the danger of subsidies on the one side and the value of them on another. That is the advantage of the National Government and of those who see things from the point of view that they will not use social effort and run it to an extreme with the object that the Opposition has, hoping eventually to provide everybody, not only with housing, but also with clothing, food, and everything else, free, so only that the rich do the work and provide the money for the purpose. That is the long distance view that hon. Members opposite come to, although they do not take it now perhaps. You can go to their friends in Russia, and they will explain that that is the only ultimate and logical conclusion to which they are working. We recognise that that is a point of view for the general subsidy held by the party opposite, but there is the other point of view that has clearly been established by several Ministers of Health, namely, that if subsidies are given regardless of their object and not carefully watched, and are taken as a matter of course, they largely evaporate into pockets for which they were not intended.

It is absurd for the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) to suggest that there is nothing new in this Bill and that if only we had allowed the Wheatley Act of 1924 and the Slum Clearance Act of 1930—for which he took credit in many ways quite rightly—to continue, they would have solved the whole problem. I cannot imagine that the right hon. Gentleman really believes that to be the case. If he does, it only shows how shallow was his appreciation of the duties of which he was deprived by the election of 1931, because everyone must realise that overcrowding has never yet been dealt with. We medical officers of health, as other workers in housing, know that the quantitative method of increasing the number of houses has failed to deal with overcrowding, which is due to the fact that we have never yet managed to build on a large scale down to the requirements of the working classes or the casual workers who are the real objects of our actions. Not only did the previous Ministries of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Swindon and the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer fail to do it, but the Act of 1924 failed to do it. With the best will in the world, Mr. Wheatley was unable, as was definitely recognised, to build houses, even to let, down to the levels that are required. It did not deal with that side of the problem, and it certainly did not deal with the evils of overcrowding.

It is not a new idea to deal with overcrowding. Queen Elizabeth in 1580 recognised that overcrowding was the chief thing that had to be dealt with. In her Proclamation of that year against tenements, she said: on housing in administrative positions have tried over and over again to deal with this subject. It is true that by quantitative housing, even under the existing law, there has been a definite improvement. The census between 1911 and 1921 showed an increase of houses of a little over 250,000 and an increase in population of 1,750,000. That is an average of two houses for every 13 new persons. The last decade showed an increase in houses of 1,370,000 to just over an increase of 2,000,000 in the population, or two houses for every three extra persons. That is shown in the actual reduction of the average number of persons to each occupied house. In 1901 the average was 5.2; in 1931 it was 4.4. The number is, therefore, very largely reduced. The proportion of the population living over two to a room in England and Wales is shown by the census to be reduced from 9 to 7 per cent., and in London from 18 to 13 per cent. It is still a terribly high proportion, but it has been reduced. It is not sufficient however.

We who have worked on this problem know the overcrowding that exists, yet nobody has really seen how to deal with it. The right hon. Member for Wakefield said yesterday again and again that there was nothing new in this Bill, but the one thing that is new, which all administrators will recognise as invaluable, is the laying down of a definite standard and the provision of power and machinery to enforce the standard on the one hand, and to provide other houses for the displaced people on the other. Whether the machinery and the standard will be effective is a point which I hope we shall examine in Committee. It is a mistake to say that this standard is a hard standard and that there ought to be a higher standard. To say that is to mistake the ideal for the practicable. It is like the conductor on the tail-end of an omnibus who shoves off the last two or three people from the tail while allowing 12 people to strap-hang. We might say that it would be ideal to allow no strap-hanging, but we have to wait until the London Transport Board supplies more vehicles before that ideal can be obtained. This Bill deals with what is possible and practicable. I understand that many of the most hard pressed local authorities will find even this standard impossible to work to. If only they can deal with it they may hope to improve it in years to come, but, in the meantime, we must not go too far. Many idealists and enthusiasts in the House and outside confuse the practicable, which is obtainable, and the ideal, which is unobtainable at the present time.

One of the great difficulties which we have seen as we have been working through the housing problem over these years is the difficulty of really dealing with what is called the core of the problem. The new houses have tended to strain off the cream of each class of the population. It is the cream which is welcomed by the owners, whether municipal or private, and the skimmed milk remains. That consists of the lower sections of each class who, not necessarily through their own fault, are less likely to make good tenants, more especially as they were immobilised until 1932 by the Rent Restrictions Acts. The Departmental Committee showed that they were immobilised until this beneficent Government improved the Rent Restrictions Acts and made them more mobile again. The people who are least able to provide for themselves converge on the existing crowded areas. Birds of a feather flock together. Why? It has been suggested that they do it in order to keep near their work. The Minister of Health said it was in order to stay near their work and their social surroundings. It is primarily because they just want to stay where they are. The expense of moving and changing furniture and the expense of looking about for a house is itself a considerable expense, and those who are living with no margin beyond subsistence, and are often not able even to make two ends meet, cannot afford to move. They converge more and more to particular areas, not only in order to stay where their work or the chance of work is, but also for the sake of their children, their friends, the shops, churches, public-houses, entertainments and recreation, and all those things which are familiar to them.

That is the reason why we cannot attain the ideal and suggest that they should go out to garden cities and satellite towns outside. Some people want to hide in these areas. When I was a medical student and walked backwards and forwards to Guy's Hospital through the Tabard Street area, where there is now a fine set of flats built by the London County Council at vast expense, an extraordinary selection of people converged on that area from all classes of society in order to hide. Such people do exist and have to be considered. Moreover, there is such a person, whom we should not forget, as the undesirable tenant. Careful consideration of that class by the late medical officer of health for Glasgow, Dr. Chalmers, and Sir John Mann showed that in the clearance areas in Glasgow from 5 to 10 per cent. of the people failed to respond to the improved environment. Do not let us forget in our enthusiasm that there is a certain percentage who do not wish to move and who make bad tenants. Many of these people strongly object to being moved and consider it a grievance if they are moved.

Why was the subsidy introduced here, and continued by this Government? It is because it is a non-recurrent subsidy for dealing with the evil we have decided to exterminate. The late Government decided to try and exterminate the slums. We have added to that the extermination of overcrowding. When we have exterminated it we have done with the need for the subsidy. The theory is clear and definite. We believe that the proper self-respecting working-class will always want to be independent for clothing, housing, food and everything else if only they are able to earn sufficient for the purpose. That is another question with which we cannot deal in this Debate, but that is why we are opposed to a general subsidy and recognise the necessity for a temporary non-recurrent subsidy. The medical officers of health agree with one or two of the points in the Bill as regards the necessity of making the position more just for owners. I am rather surprised to find that the right hon. Member for Swindon did not pour contempt upon this idea of compensating the owner of bad property for keeping it in condition.

It is bad property as here defined which has been condemned as unfit for human habitation. That is the point.

In spite of that, there is property which I, as a medical officer of health 25 years ago, condemned as unfit for habitation, yet the local authorities have never been able to close it. They will be able to deal with them under the Acts that are now in force. Meanwhile, for 25 years the owners have, naturally enough, had no incentive to keep those houses fit. It is only fair and just that when the local authority eventually closes those houses it should pay the owner for his reasonable expense—not unreasonable expense—in keeping up those houses while they have been allowed to remain in use. If that is not done owners will say, "Why should I spend money on the house; it is going to be condemned and I shall not get anything for the outlay in return?" That has been one of the real problems in the past.

As regards the ventilation and the area of accommodation in a house, its suitability does not depend so much on the actual cubic feet or superficial feet as upon the amount of air coming into the rooms. One can live perfectly well in a small cabin on board ship if there is sufficient air. On the other hand, if one lives with windows tightly closed, then hardly any area of floor space or cubic space suffices to make it a healthy dwelling. Therefore, the question of inspection and management must not be overlooked. The success of this Bill will depend to a great extent upon frequent inspection by sanitary inspectors. There are sanitary inspectors of various kinds. Many of them are among the most useful people in the world, but there are others who combine the office of sanitary inspector with other duties, and do not—perhaps are not able to—discharge the work of inspection properly, more especially in county areas. There is a strong case to be made out for having county sanitary inspectors—for making the appointment of such officials compulsory, just as county medical officers of health are compulsory, and just as sanitary inspectors were made compulsory for the districts long ago. There ought to be a county sanitary inspector to be a guide and a help, and if necessary a goad and a stimulus, to local inspectors. There may be some difficulty in getting medical officers to be keen on a scheme dealing with houses with only two bedrooms. In the past we have perhaps gone too far in saying that all houses ought to have three bedrooms. Undoubtedly the case of small families has to be provided for, but unless there is very good administration there will be a difficulty, one of these days, in preventing houses with only two bedrooms from being overcrowded.

But, after all, the housing laws are only a framework. The law is not the most important factor in securing an improvement of the housing of the people. That must depend mainly on the will of the people, guided largely by public opinion, which they will have to form themselves. Once such a public opinion is created the laws follow suit and are carried out, but without such a public opinion the laws will not be carried out to any considerable extent. Therefore, in taking this big step forward in increasing the standard of housing accommodation we must get the people behind us, whether owners or occupiers, members of the local authority or electors, if we want to see the Measure fully carried out. Whatever may be the advantages or disadvantages of this Measure its real success in improving the housing of the people will depend largely on the people themselves, who are now, for the first time, being supplied with the machinery to bring about what we all desire.

5.5 p.m.

I am not going to follow the hon. Member for St. Albans (Sir F. Fremantle) back to the days of Elizabeth, but if the progress in housing standards has been so slow that is an added justification for this Bill, and would even justify a more vigorous and bolder Measure. I want to congratulate the Minister of Health, first on his eloquent speech, which showed knowledge and understanding of the problem and a realisation of its urgency and importance. I only wish that the Bill had been as comprehensive and as bold as his speech, but I realise that it may be that people were all the time pulling at his coat tails. I have not been one of those who attacked the right hon. Gentleman as being a failure as a Minister of Health. I have seen such attacks in the Press, including the Conservative Press, making him the whipping boy for the failure of the Government. I think that has been most unfair. He has worked hard, and the failure has lain with the powers which the Government gave him. He was put in as Minister of Health and in due course he produced his Bill. It was not a housing Bill but an economy Bill. It grew out of the report of the hon. Member for Richmond (Sir W. Ray), who signed an economy report which recommended the complete cutting out of the subsidy and the dropping of the housing legislation.

I believe the right hon. Gentleman was put in his office as an economist, as a financial expert, because his previous training and experience had been in finance, largely as Financial Secretary to the Treasury. But anybody who is brought into contact with this housing problem, as he has been by going about the country and seeing how the vast majority of the people live, is bound to be converted, and I regard this Bill as a white sheet, as an admission of his past mistakes and a confession of the complete failure of the Housing (Financial Provisions) Act. I do not think that was referred to by the Minister yesterday, but perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary, who was most eloquent in defence of the policy contained in that Act, will try to justify its working. It was supposed to provide all the houses required to meet the ordinary needs of the working class—apart from slum clearance—by private enterprise, with the aid of building societies. We had vivid pictures of the great activities which would be going on North, South, East and West, in Yorkshire and the Midlands, with the co-operation of those great and powerful societies. I was a little doubtful, and suggested that the wording of the Act would make it impossible for the building societies to engage in these operations except to build houses for sale. Unfortunately, I proved a true prophet, because I am advised that the result of the Bill passed two years ago is that no more than 2,500 houses to let have been built with the co-operation of the building societies. I do not know whether that figure is correct, and perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary will put me right if I am wrong, but at any rate the number of houses fell far short of the anticipations of the Government. I remember that I got a good deal of credit for putting forward the only two Amendments which were accepted by the Government—this will interest the right hon. Member for Swindon (Dr. Addison)—one to provide baths and one to limit the number of houses per acre. I might have saved my breath, because I understand that no more than two or three thousand baths have been provided, owing to the houses not having been forthcoming. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will accept a similar Amendment when we come to the Committee stage of this particular Bill.

One thing to be noted is that at last the Government admit that overcrowding is as important a problem as slum clearance. I kept on saying that during the discussions two years ago, and the late Mr. Frank Briant, who had a great knowledge of this problem, also pressed the point, and this Bill is an important admission that overcrowding is as serious—and I am going to say more serious—than the slum problem. The right hon. Gentleman was right in saying that we are more conscious of the slum problem because it is more visible to our eyes, but in tens of thousands of apparently good houses, in good streets, in decent parts of our towns, the conditions inside the houses are appalling. It is very often better for a man to live in a mean street, or in a slum area, even though the house is badly planned, if he has that house to himself than to have his family crowded in one room in a good house in a good street. In London, this latter condition is not uncommon; in fact, it is very general, unfortunately, over a large part of the population. I am often surprised at the exemplary patience shown by the people who live under such conditions. I go into their houses. They are not bitter, they are extraordinarily patient in putting up with these conditions, I suppose because they were brought up in them and have become accustomed to them. It is one thing for them, however, and another, and a terrible thing, for children to be living, eating and sleeping in one room. When I go into the schools it always surprises me to see how clean and tidy are the children who have come out of these overcrowded homes furnished with none of the decencies of life.

In this respect things are far worse in London than in other parts of the country. The ordinary census gives us the figures, and the London Survey, published about a year ago, accentuates them. Only 36.7 per cent. of the families in London have separate dwellings—not houses, but dwellings—with a separate front door. In Liverpool the figure is 76.5, in Manchester 87.6 and Birmingham 94.7. What is really most serious is that things are not becoming better but worse, in spite of the activities of all the local authorities. During the 10 years between 1921 and 1931 there was an increase of over 2 per cent. in the number of people not having the advantage of a home to themselves. As the census points out:

We have the information. I mentioned the census. If things are bad in London as a whole, they are even worse in the East End. The new London survey for the eastern area pointed out that of the whole of the population, 27 per cent. are overcrowded, while there are 37 per cent. in Bethnal Green, 39 per cent. in Shoreditch and 42 per cent. in Stepney. That by no means gives the worst of the conditions, because the survey points out that they are worse for the children than for the grown-ups, which is inevitable. Where there are children and a shortage of accommodation, there is naturally a greater tendency to overcrowding. The survey points out that 65 per cent. of the children at school in Bethnal Green live in overcrowded conditions, 67 per cent. in Shoreditch, and 72 per cent. in Stepney. Now we are to wait for a survey to get the information. I say that the information is there. Let the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary modify their Bill in that respect and not hold it up for more information. While we are waiting, conditions are changing, and they are not becoming better but only too often becoming worse.

I do not cavil about many provisions of the Bill. Many of the Clauses are useful and practical, and are obviously the result of consultation with the local authorities. If you are to house people near their work in the central parts of London, you must inevitably build upwards. You cannot re-house people if you are clearing slums, because there are no vacant sites available, and it is inevitable that you will have to build flats, and if those flats are to be satisfactory, and in 10 or 20 years' time are to be considered suitable for their type, there must be reasonable provision for gardens and open spaces and ample provision for perambulators and bicycles, and so on. There must be a means of development. It is impossible to hope that all the people of these places will be re-housed on the site; a large proportion of them will inevitably have to go farther out.

To my knowledge and in my practical experience there is always a certain number of people living in the East End and in the crowded areas of our big towns who are not willing to go further afield. It is all a matter of rent and cost. They cannot go out because of the high rents, which are outside the range of their pocket when fares are added to the rents. I am afraid of this over-weighting of the Bill in favour of flats as against houses or cottages. Flats are a necessity, but a regrettable necessity. You have to build upwards in order to meet the needs of those who must live near their work, such as the carman or the fish porter, and the thousands of people who are necessary in a big city like London. We should encourage those who need not live near their work to go farther out, and for that reason I beg the Minister to give as much encouragement as he can to the building of cottages as to the building of flats; not to make the subsidy less, but to make it equally attractive to the local authorities to build cottages away from the centre as to build tenements. Let the two parallel forces work together collaterally and not in competition, so that the whole efforts of the local authority will be concentrated upon that method of dealing with this big problem.

This is especially so in the development of London at the present time. London is growing at a colossal rate—too great, as an hon. Member says. In 10 years, according to the census returns, between 1921 and 1931, there has been an increase in the population of greater London—the metropolitan area, the 10-mile radius of Charing Cross—of 919,000. Half of those people have come from outside, and largely from Wales and the depressed industrial areas; they have come to crowd into the already over pressed metropolitan area without any proper provision or plan for their housing. The London County Council have done considerable work in developing new estates outside the county boundaries, but inevitably those estates have been developed for their own inhabitants and ratepayers and those for whom they are responsible. Outside the area, no organisation is dealing with that new and difficult problem.

There are 113 authorities each largely a law unto itself and with no co-ordinating force. I am afraid that the Bill does not provide for this Greater London question. There has been a lot of talk in recent weeks about ribbon development. No doubt ribbon development is a serious evil, and does away with much of the advantage of the new arterial roads which we constructed at such great cost. In the meantime housing is being provided in an unsatisfactory way along those great roads, and if you are to stop ribbon development a responsibility is upon the Ministry of Health to see that there is a proper plan for the vast and growing population which is flocking out of London on the one hand, outside the county boundary, and which is coming from the various depressed areas in the North and Wales.

I am sorry that the Bill has taken such a narrow view of the housing problem. It is very little more than a departmental Bill filling up some gaps in the old and orthodox way. There has been a great deal of literature in regard to various proposals for a bold treatment of the housing problem upon new and novel lines, but we need not embark on any new experiment. There are plenty of precedents which can usually be applied if the Government are prepared to find the money and to provide the necessary powers to the local authority. The first thing in Greater London which you want is a co-ordinating authority to bring together all the various interests and the isolated and unco-ordinated authorities. Secondly, and once you have set up that authority, you ought to have power to buy land, not in small quantities but somewhat in the way which has been successfully followed in Germany and in Continental cities. Then you can freely operate the idea of satellite towns or garden cities—your Letchworth, Welwyn Garden City, Port Sunlight or whatever you like to take as your example. Then you can stop ribbon development and do something to counteract the tendency to overcrowding.

As fast as you stop overcrowding at the present time, in spite of legislation, rules and regulations, new overcrowding areas will inevitably be brought about as long as there is a housing shortage. I am told that in Hendon and in many new districts on the outskirts of London where people have been buying their houses, owing to difficulties arising out of their engagements with building societies, there is a tremendous amount of sub-letting and overcrowding which is quite unregulated and quite outside the observation of the local authorities. It is therefore not enough to introduce more rules and regulations; you must have a constructive policy which recognises that the housing problem has to be adapted to our new industrial needs. I quite agree with the interpretation of one of my hon. Friends that London is becoming too large. London is unhealthily large, and is becoming impossible to operate. The cost of getting from the centre, where a man has his work, to the outskirts, is becoming prohibitive, both in money and in time. If we are to stop this tendency, we must not only move the population but we must at the same time move the factory and the workshop and when you move the factory and the workshop you must provide the necessary houses.

There is the blatant example of Slough, where factories have been springing up by the dozen with no provision for housing. On the other hand, we made a great experiment at Becontree, where we dumped down thousands of houses with no provision for factories and workshops and the whole of the population of which had to go pouring back into the city in order to find employment. By the merest accident, Ford came down to the neighborhood and saved the situation, but that was largely accidental. The Ministry of Health must not be merely passive in the matter; it must take bold and constructive action.

It is unfortunate that the right hon. Gentleman has brought in Clauses 58 and 59 in this particular form. I am all in favour of giving a fair deal to owners of good property and am all against confiscation, but the legislation which now deals with slum clearance dates back as long ago as 1919. It was operated by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and it has been worked by Conservative Ministers as well as by Labour Ministers. It has been long recognised, especially since the Act of 1890, that it was wrong to own slum property. It was a bad investment. You have only to read Mr. Bernard Shaw's "Widowers' Houses," which was written some 30 years ago, to see that even then people regarded it as immoral and against the spirit of the law to own property which was unfit for human habitation. During the last 25 years there has been a large amount of speculation in dealing with this property. Owners have realised that it was risky to hold because they were always liable to have their property closed, not by a clearance order, or as a slum, but as an insanitary dwelling. It has been a bad investment.

I know there is a lot of bitterness among owners of property. They think that this law is too harsh, and these Clauses are the result. But they never expected anything quite so reactionary as this. The right hon. Gentleman, who has always defended the existing law, made a difference between the good fellow, as he calls him, who is striving to keep his house up to standard, and the extortioner, the heartless brute who squeezes every penny out of his tenant. I suggest that, under the law as this Bill will alter it, the extortionate fellow, who squeezes every penny out of his tenant, will, if he has painted his house outside, or added a little extra paint, or distemper, or wallpaper inside, get a very handsome present from the State. But I am not so much concerned about that. It is bad enough, but what is most serious is that, as I am informed, it will inevitably hold up the whole business of slum clearance, because there are people—you cannot blame them—who, when they know that they have a chance of getting extra money after December, 1934, will naturally insist that the whole case shall be re-opened and re-adjudged, and, instead of local authorities being able to get on with the work of slum clearance, they will have to go through all the clumsy and difficult procedure of arbitration and examination by a medical officer from the Ministry of Health, which, I fear, will lead to endless delay.

I agree with the London County Council that these Clauses must be changed. By all means give a fair deal to the owner, but this is going far beyond anything that is reasonable. If there is to be compensation, let us give some consideration to a person who has a real grievance under the slum clearance proposals—the small shopkeeper, the retailer who is only a weekly tenant, and who has been earning a living by catering for the particular neighbourhood which it becomes necessary to clear. These people have a real case for some generosity from the State, but they have been left out. I hope that, when we go into Committee, it will be posible to modify these Clauses. They suggest I think, that the right hon. Gentleman has been too willing to listen to the loud voice of vested interests. I wish the Bill well. It has good possibilities. If we can lick it into shape, if we can widen its principles and make it a broader and bolder Measure, we may get some good out of it. At present it is very limited, very narrow, and largely a departmental Bill. But it is a great thing to get the right hon. Gentleman and the Government to admit that it is necessary to give public money to assist in removing overcrowding as one of the great evils of our State.

5.33 p.m.

I wish to congratulate the Minister on having realised—I think it is the first time it has been realised—the full extent of our housing and slum clearance problem. In connection with the slum clearance problem he called for a thorough survey, which is now being carried out, and we are also to have an overcrowding survey, so that all the housing authorities in the country will be able for the first time to visualise the task which they have to face, and to plan for it. The provision of new homes—flats or cottages—will not of itself cure the problem; we must build in the right place habitations of the right size which can be let at rents which the lowest-paid worker can afford. I was very pleased yesterday to hear the Minister say that he was going to bar the idea of sky- scrapers or very tall buildings in connection with the solution of this problem. I have had some experience of such buildings, and I can endorse enthusiastically the Minister's statement that it would not be appropriate to use them. At the same time, we can learn quite a lot from the methods of organisation which have been worked out in producing those buildings. The work in them is on a huge scale, and our housing work here is equally a work on a huge scale. In Canada and the United States they have these buildings, and have taught the world new methods, from which, I am sure, we can learn much.

In my judgment, our housing needs must be tackled on a nation-wide plan. It is a tremendous undertaking, and it must be carried forward by the most modern practices and methods as efficiently and expeditiously and with as little waste as possible. Apart from legal handicaps, of which, I am afraid, there are a great many, I think it will be agreed by all that the question of cost has been a great deterrent to many municipal authorities and private undertakings in going ahead and helping to deal with the housing situation. That is a question which, I believe, has not been faced by any Minister of Health since the late Lord Melchett, but it is really fundamental. It has always been assumed, apparently, that the cost of building was at its lowest possible ebb, but I think experience has taught us that that is open to very great question. That to reduce the actual cost of building would be an advantage, I do not think anybody would deny. There is no doubt that we can reduce it, and, if we can, unquestionably we should do so; but we must at the same time maintain the very best arrangements, using the best materials and paying the best possible wages to the operatives. I should be the very last to support a reduction of the wages of the operatives.

It has been my personal experience to do work connected with housing in many countries, and, although, as I have said, I am not at all in favour of using skyscrapers, I am very much in favour of learning the lessons that they have taught us. They have taught us what can be accomplished by planning ahead on a very big scale, by having all the interests working together, and by the standardisation of details. I would go a step further, and say that in Canada and the United States they can build to-day, and they have been able to build, at approximately the same cost as in Great Britain. The great Imperial Chemical Industries building, just near here, cost approximately the same price per cubic foot as the Empire State building in America—the tallest building in the world; but the bricklayers on the Empire State building were paid five times as much per week as our men on the Imperial Chemical Industries building. The carpenters were paid three and a-half times as much, and the plumbers three and a-half times as much. In other words, by the method of planning ahead it is possible to build at equal prices in this country and in America, but there, by their planning, they have been able to pay their men very much higher wages than we have. Surely, this must make us all think that there is some need for wider planning in our work here.

With this knowledge, I would very strongly suggest to the Minister that the Advisory Committee he is setting up by this Bill should explore all the advantages which this wide-scale planning can bring in the solution of our housing problem. Why not arrange for a nation-wide purchase of materials? Why not arrange long-term wage rates with the operatives? It could be done. We all know that competitive purchase by adjacent purchasers will force up prices. That is common knowledge the world over. If we are going to see our municipalities, towns and cities, competing with each other, we shall undoubtedly find prices going up, and that will interfere very much with the completion of our housing programme. Also, it will mean great fluctuations in employment among our building operatives, and that is something which I think we should all like to see avoided.

With a knowledge of the total needs in connection with slum clearance and overcrowding, biased on the number of habitations needed, a practical man who has had wide experience could calculate approximately the total requirements in the way of bricks, cement, tiles, pipes, timber—all the things that are needed; and as the problem is so large it is possible to calculate almost exactly what would be required. Next, we can ascertain what is the normal yearly national output of our building material factories and so on without due expansion. If we expand our factories to meet this special housing demand, the time will come when the demand will no longer exist on the same great scale land then the extra factories will be undesirable. We know also about how many men are required to build a certain number of houses. We can divide the yearly output of our factories into the total housing and slum clearance demand, and decide about how long we ought to give to the carrying out of the programme. We do not want to be too slow; we do not, on the other hand, want to force it too quickly, although we are anxious that it should be done as quickly as possible; but by steady and consistent progress year in and year out we shall get the work done more quickly than we shall by sudden spurts. Spurts mean increased prices, more trouble, and stoppages. With this knowledge of our total need, and the time in which it would be needed, I am sure it would be possible to negotiate with the various trades on a large scale the prices over a term of years for the materials that will be required for the programme. In that way we should ensure a low, fair price for all required materials, continuity of work for those employed in our factories, land also continuity of work for our building trade operatives. We could thus get our housing work accomplished at a fair minimum standard of cost and in a minimum specified time, in accordance with a time-and-progress schedule covering the entire housing needs of the nation, and we could avoid the hit-and-miss scramble for men and materials which will result from, undirected national effort.

I will not go into details, but I hope the Advisory Committee will look into this matter, for I am sure they can easily plan out such a scheme. They can then advise all the housing authorities what would be an appropriate yearly quota, so as to avoid this scramble. It could all be done within a big plan, which is perfectly feasible and practical, and, I think we all agree, is desirable. I would urge the Minister to examine this suggestion, because I am sure, from my experience of very large undertakings in other places, that it has real possibilities of enabling him to realise his desire in this Bill and also in his slum clearance programme. Next I would suggest the standardisation and modernisation of our building regulations. What is strong enough for one place is strong enough for another. With 1,700 odd housing authorities, each one using its own interpretation, I hope one of the first things the Minister will do will be to issue appropriate building regulations which can be used all over the country. I think we are all agreed that these 1,700 different authorities, all having their own ideas, do not stand for economy or for simplification and, if the building programme is to be carried out, we need both those things.

As to the use of new materials and processes, the Government possess a very efficient National Building Bureau of Research, but after the building bureau has approved a material, anyone who has attempted to get it used in any place has found it almost impossible. It is an endless job to try to get any housing authority anywhere to let you use a new material although it has been approved by the Government building bureau. Most municipalities have neither the facilities nor the ability to test things for themselves. I should like to see this Government bureau, if necessary, enlarged and widened in scope so that its approval will apply immediately all over the country and any material, or process, or gadget that it has approved allowed to be used and the advantage of its approval given to anyone who wishes to build anywhere. This, in fact, would mean the same benefit for our building industry as Lloyd's Register means to our shipping. We all know that it has meant safety, and it has put our ships in a class which is not equalled by any other nation in the world.

The Minister mentioned yesterday that he was going to investigate the use of standardised details. I trust that time will not be lost before this idea is carried forward—not, of course, to make all our houses look alike but to get standardised interiors, complete bathrooms, complete staircases and complete kitchens. By that means costs will be reduced below anything that we have to-day. You should buy such items as complete entities, instal them, and this would be of great benefit to everyone concerned. The builder would know the space each such item woudd need and could plan accordingly. I would again congratulate the Minister on having gathered the entire national housing programme into one simple, understandable situation, and I do beg of him to give this proposed Advisory Committee such powers as will enable him to bring about nation-wide planning and get our housing slum clearance and overcrowding requirements accomplished in the best time and at the most advantageous national cost.

5.50 p.m.

I am sure the House will have shared my own interest and enjoyment of the informative and thoughtful speech that we have just heard. It seems extraordinarily difficult for me to reconcile the wisdom of the advice that flows from the hon. Gentleman's very wide knowledge and practical application to the problem after the somewhat fainthearted congratulations which he offered to the Minister. I cannot help feeling that in his heart he shares with me, and with everyone else, bitter disappointment when we come to consider the contents of the Bill. Never since I came to the House have I opened a package with more lively anticipation than this great Bill which was to deal with the problem of overcrowding, a problem which is the cause of more domestic unhappiness and tragedy than any other thing. So much has been said about it. The Moyne Committee have laboured enormously upon it. Men of experience and public spirit, like Lord Balfour of Burleigh, have given their best advice in order that something might be done which would really deal with the problem. We open the Bill and we find that the Government have just gone on tinkering. The hon. Baronet the Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Sir P. Harris) said there was nothing new in the Bill. There is only this new in it, that its proposals, taken one by one, make for delay and for additional expense in local authorities carrying out the job. There is no essential difference between the provision of new houses, the clearance of slums and the abatement of overcrowding. The one evil arises from the other, and is like to it. The overcrowded house of to-day is the slum of to-morrow, and the direct product of the failure of a long succession of Conservative Governments to deal with the necessity to provide for the lag in the provision of new houses.

What does the Bill do? I do not profess to be a housing expert, but even an amateur can see the effect of these provisions. First of all, it is going to make for delay. The London County Council, which is the greatest housing authority in the country, and which has probably had as wide an experience as any authority in the country, states that it would seem that the power of the council to provide accommodation for relief in overcrowding is limited in the first instance to the provision of houses outside the county, and that the express permission of the Minister has to be obtained in every case if the council desires to abate overcrowding within the county of London. Here is the London County Council, charged primarily with this terrific task. In Fulham there are 17,000 people living in overcrowded conditions in houses which were built in the early days of Queen Victoria's reign, the houses of the prosperous middleclass, who were beginning to inhabit the market gardens which were once Fulham. They are three-storey houses with small basements. As the right hon. Gentleman said, there is one water tank and one water closet, and in those houses by the thousand to-day in my constituency there is a family in the basement, a family on the first floor, a family on the second floor and very often a family in the back bedroom addition at the back, and those houses, which before the War would command a rental of somewhere round 10s. or 12s. a week, are now reaping a harvest for the landlord of 10s. per single room. These are not exceptional cases. There are acres of them in my division, and it stretches all round London in a great morass of unhappiness, and in many cases downright misery, and the London County Council is to be interfered with, to be restricted and to be forced to confine its attention to the provision of houses outside the county in default of the boroughs tackling this terrific task.

The hon. Baronet the Member for South-West Bethnal Green was talking about the undesirability of flats. Let us be realists in this matter. We cannot abate London's overcrowding unless we are prepared to re-house London's population in modern up-to-date and beautiful flats. That is the only solution, and I am surprised that the hon. Baronet should talk as he did. Perhaps part of his charm is that his economic and political conceptions are early Victorian.

I am not against building flats. On the contrary, I said the only way to house people who have to live near their work would be to build flats. But at the same time that they were building flats, cottages should be encouraged to be built outside London for those who could go out.

I am very glad to hear the hon. Baronet say so. I would point to his own experience of the Becontree estate. The people for whom that estate was built cannot afford to live there. They cannot afford to pay the fare that is necessary to travel to and from their work. If we are going to do anything, it has to be done by building flats. I hope no further currency will be given to the idea that working-class flats are bound to be uncomfortable and hideous. As the hon. Member for Maidstone (Mr. Bossom) was pointing out, if we could only make use of the new building methods and building materials which science has now placed at our disposal, we could solve this problem and we could build in our generation a new and beautiful London which would be a pride to our nation and not a disgrace in face of which every Englishman must hang his head. You are not going to do it by spreading the nasty rash of what masquerades as new Tudor palaces in the beautiful countryside of Southern England.

I was asking the Prime Minister the other day when we were to get the promised legislation on ribbon building and why a declaration was not made that it would be retrospective to arrest that evil now. The responsibility for this lies with the present Government. The Lord President of the Council and the Prime Minister are very fond of making beautifully phrased, and, I am sure, very sincere references to the beauty of the English countryside. It is the Government's housing policy which left to private enterprise the provision of working-class houses which has spread over the beauty of Southern England this abominable rash which will curse it for several generations. It is not the local authorities' building estates which have defaced our beautiful country. It is the disgraceful jerry building of the speculative builder out to snatch a quick profit from the un- instructed house-buyer who is forced into his clutches by the negligence of the present Government. When I hear these illustrious elder statesmen speaking of the beauties of England, I am moved to some bitterness when I reflect that our children and our children's children will never see it because in 1931 a Conservative Government, masquerading as National, abolished the work which its predecessor had so well begun. Not only does the Bill do nothing to help us, but it definitely throws sand into the machine. It creates this delay, it limits the operations of the great housing authorities in the way I have described, and then it deliberately adds to the expense.

One of the major difficulties in this problem is how to provide new accommodation for the people who most need it, and in order to do that you have to get down to a rent which they can afford to pay. In London, as in all big towns, the major factor in the rent per week is the cost of obtaining the site. This Bill has deliberately gone out to increase the cost of obtaining the site. As the London County Council point out—and again I quote from their instructive report on this Bill, because they have such vast experience in this matter—the increase in cost which this Bill will involve may amount to such a figure that they will have to raise the rents of their whole housing estates. Let us take two elements in this increase in cost. I should be the last person to suggest that we should confiscate anybody's property in an unfair and improper manner, but we have always to remember that the rights and the needs of the community are paramount. Subject to those rights and needs, we must be fair and equitable among those whose private interests must give way to public necessity.

I do not know what Bolshevists say, but I know that what I am saying will find an echo in the mind of every reasonable person, and if the hon. Gentleman does not agree that public necessity comes before private enterprise, what is he doing in this House?

But the hon. Member did not say private interests, but private property. He said that private property would take second place, and come after the public interest.

I feel sure that even the hon. Member will agree with the axiom, that public interest and necessity must override the rights of private property.

Oh, yes; the whole history of the growth of civilisation is the insistence of public necessity taking precedence over private rights.

I am sure the hon. Gentleman will do me the justice to admit that I added that; but we must insist on the paramount rights of public necessity. Having agreed about that—and I am sure that the hon. Member, when he reflects, will regret some of his interjections—and having established that right, we must make every endeavour to be fair and equitable to those persons whose private interests are affected. In pursuit of these principles of fairness and equity we turn to this Bill, and what do we find? We find, first of all, that what I believe the experts call "the housing factor" in assessing compensation is removed. That means, if I understand it alight, as the law is now, that if a public authority goes through all the elaborate processes designed to safeguard the rights of private property and finally obtains an order that a certain area shall be cleared, in paying compensation to the owner of the site, and in instructing the arbitrator to arrive at a fair price, it is assumed that the land is worth what it would be worth if it were used for housing purposes. In other words, the owner of the bad property which has been destroyed by public action is not allowed to profit by the public activity which he has sought to obstruct. That is now removed, and I am told by the London experts that the removal of that one thing will raise by one-third the cost of acquiring land for rehousing in London.

Take an area like Lambeth, where there is a great slum. The authority desires to clear it and it obtains the necessary powers to do so. There is a place where there existed some miserable hovels. They are cleared away and the owner can now claim that he desires to sell the site for the purposes of building an hotel, and the arbitrator is bound to have regard to the value of the site as if it were used for that purpose, whereas, if the law were left as it is, the site would be regarded for purposes of valuation as a site to be used for working-class houses. It will mean an increase in working-class rents. Much has been made by the Minister of the difficulties of the man who keeps his bad property in repair and the man who does not keep his bad property in repair, and he pointed out how necessary it was to do justice and to see to it that the man who had done repairs to a slum property was properly compensated for what he had done. But may I draw the attention of the Minister to one fact which he has overlooked? The man who has done his repairs has already been paid for doing them, because he was permitted under the Rent Restrictions Act to raise his rents in consideration of his doing those repairs. There are in London thousands of landlords, who, owing to the ignorance of the law on the part of their tenants have increased the rent as permitted by the Rent Restrictions Act, but have certainly not carried out their obligations with regard to repairs. I do not know whether the Minister disagrees with me, but I am sure, that if he knew London as well as I know it, he would know that that state of affairs is common. In my constituency the local authority have recently opened an office in the Town Hall for the giving of advice to tenants with regard to the law relating to housing, and we have come across thousands of cases of the abuse of the ignorance of the tenant as to the law relating to landlord and tenant.

Let me take one other example. The Bill strikes a blow at rapid procedure. It strikes a blow at rent, because by increasing the cost of land, it increases the cost of rent, but, not being satisfied with doing this injustice and this mischief to the poor of London, the Government turn to a class of people on whose behalf I have ventured to speak in this House before—the clerk, the black-coated worker, the small man in business, the chap who tries to buy his own house and achieve that independence which Conservative Members regard—and I regard—as such a virtue. The London County Council under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Act have recently given a great deal of prominence and much thought and activity to making loans to such people in order that they may buy their houses. If I may give one other local instance, in the borough of Fulham for many years, we have had a Conservative Borough Council. That council refused to operate the provisions of the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Act. The moment we got a Labour majority on that borough council they applied the provisions of that Act, with the result that the clerk, the shop assistant and the civil servant living in my borough are now able to borrow, at a little over 3 per cent., money from the London County Council in order to buy their own houses. They are getting it, as the Minister well knows, very much cheaper than it can be got from any building society. It is not costing the public anything. The London County Council adds a small percentage to the rate of interest in order to cover the administration expenses.

Here one would have thought was a contribution to the solution of the housing problem, which the Government would have been only too ready to assist, encourage and extend. But what do they do? The London County Council have been making loans for houses up to the value of £1,200. This Bill stops it and forces them to lend only on houses below the value of £800. That is not negligible. The effect of it in London is to do away with a third of the business, and we are forcing people, who might have got money with which to buy their own houses at a little over 3 per cent., to go to private enterprise and get it very much dearer, adding a very considerable annual sum to the cost of their houses. One could go on through the provisions of this Bill showing how almost incredibly wrong is the whole Government approach to this problem. What was needed was a broad national plan. This Government could have done it. I think that there are many of their supporters who ex- pected that they would do it. All they have done is to invent a lot of pettifogging Regulations to make action more difficult and more expensive, and I suggest with sorrow that this effort will do nothing to cure our evils, and I can only hope that the day will not be long delayed when the Minister's successor will wipe away this pettifogging approach, and will deal with this evil with the courage and determination that it demands.

6.13 p.m.

I do not myself welcome the Bill. I appreciate very fully the lucid explanation of the provisions of the Bill with which the Minister opened this Debate, but as far as the provisions of the Bill themselves are concerned, while I believe that there are some features that are perfectly good, the great majority I believe to be fundamentally bad. In the short time that I hope to engage the attention of the House, I shall attempt to deal with three or four main features of the Bill. In the first place, I hope to show to the satisfaction of the Minister that it is undesirable to fix the standard of overcrowding as he proposes, and, indeed, that it is undesirable to fix any arbitrary standard at all, and certainly undesirable to make a standard statutory. I hope, too, to show that the proposals in regard to re-development, which involve the building of tenements, are extremely unsatisfactory, and will have results of an unsatisfactory nature. I do not like to diminish the touching confidence that the hon. Member for Maidstone (Mr. Bossom) has in the possibilities that might result from the activities of the Advisory Committees to which he referred and as proposed under the Bill. In common parlance, I should say that the Advisory Committee is very largely in the nature of eye-wash. I shall make one or two observations in regard to the proposal for the consolidation of the accounts of local authorities and shall show that the anomalies which these provisions are attempting to remove are likely to recur under the Bill.

I remember well during the early stages of the present Minister's occupation of his office that he referred to the local authorities and others who were engaged in housing under housing legislation. He said that there had been a surfeit of housing legislation and that what was required was a period of quiescence during which previous legislation could be digested, and from that digested legislation some practical and useful results might be obtained. That was his view then. It was not very long before he introduced a Bill. He has introduced at least two major Measures of great importance and carried them through the House, dealing very intimately with housing questions. One of those Measures was the Town and Country Planning Act, containing provisions which more than any other single instance that I know has tended to prevent the production of that class of small dwelling house which is required for the lower-paid working classes.

The other Measure was his Housing Act of 1933, containing two provisions, one of which has been extraordinarily successful, and one of which has been ludicrously inoperative. The one that has been practically inoperative is the one whereby the Minister continues to hold on to this housing question and to direct, control and administer it generally in conjunction with the local authorities and also in conjunction with the building societies. That was an effort to provide small houses at rentals well within the means of the lower paid working classes, and it has dismally failed. The part of the Measure over which the Minister insisted on keeping ministerial control has failed almost completely. The other part of the Bill dealt with the withdrawal of the subsidy and left the production of houses to private enterprise unfettered. The result has been extraordinarily successful so far as concerns the number of houses provided. Immediately he took the paralysing hand of the Government off housing the production of houses by private enterprise increased from 160,000 to 260,000 a year without the cost of a single penny to the State or the local authorities. One would have thought that with that experience before him the Minister would have seen the beneficial results that have accrued from leaving these things alone and not introducing troublesome additional legislation. One would have thought that he would come back to the views which he held earlier, before he assumed Ministerial office, but instead, we have the present Bill of 85 Clauses and seven long Schedules. The results of the operation of that part of the Act of 1933 to which I have referred are clearly written on the wall, yet Ministerial myopia is such that it has not been properly read.

My objection to the standards proposed in the Bill is that primarily I object to any standard of overcrowding being laid down. It is most undesirable to stereotype and make statutory any provision of this kind, because the minimum becomes the standard, just as the minimum prescribed by by-laws has become the standard. The result has been the hundreds of mean streets to which the Minister referred because of the stereotyping process and the prescribing of a statutory standard. What was regarded 80 years ago as a satisfactory standard of housing we now regard as a slum. I sincerely hope that that which we regard as a satisfactory standard to-day will be regarded as a slum 80 years to come. Owing to the increase in the standard of our housing accommodation, that which we regarded 80 years ago as a reasonable intensity of user we now regard as overcrowding. I hope that that which we regard to-day according to this Bill as a reasonable standard will, in 80 years' time, be regarded as something that is totally different and inappropriate. It is undesirable to lay down by Statute a standard, because the minimum becomes the standard, and it is extremely difficult to raise it once it has received statutory effect.

In the main I am concerned with the administration of the standard. The administration of the new standard is likely to be extremely difficult. I know that the Minister does not share my views. He has emphasised the importance of the enforcement of his very improper standard and the whole of the proposals based upon it, by force of law. In his excellent speech yesterday he impressed upon us that this Measure is conceived upon the basis of the force of law. There is to be inspection and inquisition. In the first Clause the first thing that the official mind turns to is inspection. It is to be the duty of the local authority to inspect and see whether or not the lower-paid working classes of this country are using such accommodation as they have in accordance with their domestic needs and economic circumstances. They are to be singled out for inspection. In the first Clause the Minister can insist upon further inspection. Arising from these inspections the official mind naturally turns to legal proceeding, convictions and punishment.

True, the Minister sees in Clause 4 that it would be an impossible thing to carry out this Bill in its full rigidity, and therefore he provides that in certain areas in which exceptional circumstances may apply they shall be exempt from the immediate operation of the Bill, upon the cat-and-mouse theory. They shall be let loose for a little time, but always with the fear of impending legal proceedings hanging over them. They are to have a little time in which to think about it. In regard to the individual house, there is provision for a licence. The person is to be licensed. The poor fellow is to be licensed to use his house just as his domestic needs and economic circumstances compel. If there are sufficient circumstances to enable him to get a licence then in order that the stigma upon him may be complete a copy of the licence is to be supplied to the landlord and the licence is to be almost from day to day, with the possibility of the full force of the law coming upon him at any moment. The Minister has evidently foreseen that there will be difficulty in the administration of the inquisitorial and inspectorial provisions. He has put the unpleasant duty and burden upon the local authorities. He makes it the duty of the local authority to do the work of inspection and gives them certain powers for dealing with people who are suspected of using their houses to an excessive extent. He uses his medical officers of health to advise him whether or not the local authorities are carrying out the inspection in precisely the manner that he anticipates.

All this business as it stands is fundamentally bad. The inspection is bad. I can foresee that it will not be very long before under the cumulative legislation to which we are becoming accustomed we shall have something very similar to that of which I had a great deal of painful experience in Scotland, namely, the ticketed house. These will be practically ticketed houses, except that the ticket will not be put upon the door as in Scotland, where the ticket is put upon the door giving the cubic contents and the number of persons who are permitted to sleep there. At any hour of the night a sanitary inspector or a police officer can go and turn his electric torch on to a bed and count the occupants in a bed to see whether or not they are in excess of the number allowed. [ Laughter. ] I mean the human occupants. [ Laughter. ] Some hon. Members think that this is a matter for ridicule. It is a repellent thing that people should be liable to have their domains broken into in the middle of the night by inspectors from a central department, and that they can be counted in bed in that way. [ Laughter. ] If there are hon. Members who think that this is a matter for ridicule, I am very sorry. It is not a matter of ridicule to me. I have visited hundreds of houses of that kind, and I think it is perfectly repellent that any man's house should be invaded for the purpose of counting the people in the bed.

Can the hon. Member tell us to what Clause of the Bill he is referring where power is given to these inspectors to go in the dead of night and do all these dreadful things?

I thought that I had explained that that will come in future legislation, but I will point out that in Clause 5 (2) if a person makes default in complying with the requirements, or furnishes a statement which is false, proceedings may be taken against him. If proceedings are taken against him those proceedings must be upon the basis that he is using the premises to a greater extent than the Statute permits. That means that there must be evidence of the number of persons actually sleeping in the particular house which forms the subject of the proceedings. I do not know how otherwise than by counting the number of persons in the beds you can find out how many there are in the house. What other evidence there may be to indicate the number of persons sleeping in the house, other than finding out whether or not they are sleeping there, I do not know.

Would it not be a good idea to count the people going in at night and then count the people who come out in the morning?

Whether that would be the right way to do it I do not know. It is not the way it is done in Scotland under Statutes of this, kind which have been in operation for a long time. There they have the more direct method of actually counting the people in their beds. With regard to the re-development of areas, so far as I can understand the proposals they will have this effect, although I am sure it cannot be the purpose of the Minister of Health. They will have the effect of inducing more expensive land, and encourage high tenements; they will tend to overcrowd each unit of land and supply very poor accommodation to those who are accommodated in these tenemental buildings, and mean extraordinary rentals for the accommodation provided. The Third Schedule contains a computation of the Exchequer contribution towards the provision of flats on sites. If one makes a short examination of the contributions which are to be made two points emerge, first, that a premium is set upon the high cost of land—the higher the cost of land the more the Exchequer contribution—and also on overcrowding each area of land; the more flats you put up on each acre of land the larger the Exchequer contribution obtained. These are eminently unsatisfactory and undesirable inducements to offer to any local authority or to anyone else.

Further, the rentals necessary under these arrangements must be high. The Government subsidy for these tenement buildings is fixed and the local authority's contribution, I understand, is to be fixed at 50 per cent. of the Exchequer contribution. The balance must be made up in rent. The Minister of Health will agree that these tenement buildings will cost anywhere between 60 and 80 per cent. more for the accommodation they provide than the accommodation provided by ordinary houses. As the right hon. Gentleman does not seem inclined to indicate whether he agrees or disagrees, I must call attention to the fact that he has already in his last annual report shown clearly that, comparing accommodation with accommodation as near as one can, the cost of providing it in a tenement building is about 70 per cent. more than the cost of providing it in ordinary houses. If you are compelled to provide accommodation which is going to cost between 60 and 70 per cent. more than if it were provided by ordinary houses, obviously the rentals resulting—that is if the contributions from the Exchequer and local authorities are definitely fixed—are going to be extremely high. Therefore, as far as tenements are concerned, we get these unsatisfactory results. First, we are overcrowding every acre of land and we are raising the rents of the occupants of these tenements to a great extent. We are also inducing working people to live in central and unhealthy surroundings, encouraging works to remain in these central areas, when the reverse policy should be pursued and every effort made to decentralise works and get the residents out into the suburbs and rural parts, away from these centres of population, where the women and children can have a fair meed of God's air and sunshine.

I must refer to the proposals for setting up the Central Housing Advisory Committee. Unless these provisions are considerably modified the public will be deluded into the belief that this Advisory Committee is going to have some beneficial effect; that there is to be a body of persons—the Minister mentioned men of business—who will have an opportunity of advising the Minister as a result of their special knowledge on this particular question. From my experience of advisory committees, I do not think they will be anything of the kind, nor will they have any such opportunity of tendering advice to the Minister. They will be invited to tender advice on those particular points only on which their advice may be required, for whatever purpose it may be. If the advice which they tender coincides with the official view it will be welcomed, but if it does not coincide with the official view, they will soon be cold-shouldered and their advice will not be asked in the future. Under these proposals the Advisory Committee have no power, no authority, no access to the Minister. They will rarely see the Minister and their meetings will be few—one or two in 12 months.

To be of any value the Advisory Committee will have to be totally different from any advisory committee the Minister of Health has ever appointed. If they are to be of use they must have the opportunity of appointing their own chairman and secretary, and they should have the power to give advice to the Minister, within the terms of their reference, upon any point which they think it desirable to give advice and, in addition, they should have access to the Minister and their report made available to this House. Unless there are some modifications which will place the Advisory Committee in a position of that kind they are merely eyewash. The House should not be a party to deluding the public into the belief that the committee has any power at all or will be permitted to render any services of any kind.

I have made some reference to the financial provisions relating to tenement buildings and have shown that they will be extremely costly in their production. But there are two other points to which I desire to refer in regard to the financial provisions of the Measure. In the first place, with regard to the proposals relating to further financial assistance to rural or agricultural areas, I presume it is intended that this financial assistance shall be rendered under the Housing (Rural Workers) Acts of 1926 and 1931. Anyone who has had anything to do with rural housing must recognise the great need for some assistance being rendered to rural housing, but that these proposals for giving assistance should come from the Minister surprises me. It surprises me because the right hon. Gentleman is responsible for the administration of the Housing (Rural Workers) Act, 1931, to which the right hon. Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) referred yesterday. It is true, as the right hon. Member for Wakefield said, that it was the intention of Parliament in passing that Act that 40,000 houses should be provided. It was improper I thought of the right hon. Member for Wakefield to say that the Minister of Health had sent out communications to local authorities dissuading them from proceeding under that particular Act. I do not think for a moment that the right hon. Gentleman did anything of the kind. He says that he did not, and, of course, he did not.

But I myself have had reason to complain that the administration of that Act was not in the least what Parliament intended it should be when the Act was passed. If the administration of that Act had been in the spirit contemplated by the Minister who piloted the Measure through the House, these 40,000 houses would have been erected within 12 months or at least two years. That was the intention of Sir Tudor Walters when he became chairman of the committee upon which I was invited to serve. I had correspondence with the then Minister of Health and Sir Tudor Walters, and the scheme was that by mass production of these houses, under certain terms and conditions, 40,000 houses should be erected within that period. When the right hon. Gentleman came to administer that Act—I agree that we had been struck by the economic blizzard of 1931—he reduced the number of houses to be built under it to 2,000, and, appreciating as he did that there was a downward market in the matter of building costs and also in the rate of interest, he deliberately delayed his activities. They were indeed so belated, so selective and so restrictive, that he very proudly reported that he had been able to get the 2,000 houses built in three years, instead of 40,000 houses in one year, without having to make any financial contribution whatever. That was an extremely unsatisfactory manner in which to administer an Act intended to produce a considerable number of houses for rural workers. I know perfectly well that there had been applications for only 7,000 or 8,000 houses, but if one-tenth of the energy had been applied to make that Act work which has been applied to the slum clearance campaign there would have been applications for the 40,000 houses, and with a vigorous administration they would have been provided.

There is one point to which I should like to refer concerning the Advisory Committee who are supposed to have something to do with the administration of this Act. Let me read an extract from the annual report of the Minister—I am dealing now with the Housing (Rural Workers) Act, 1931, and with the Advisory Committee appointed under it. I think the wording of the right hon. Gentleman is a little unfortunate. He says: is set by the Advisory Committee. It is nothing of the kind. It is somewhat disingenuous and scarcely worthy of the traditions of Government administration.

The only other point to which I wish to refer is in regard to the consolidation of the local authorities' finance. It took me a little time before I could understand what the underlying motive of this was, but I was helped a good deal by the lucid statement of the Minister yesterday. Apparently the motive is this: Every time an Act of Parliament is passed dealing with housing and subsidies there are bound to arise anomalies and confusions in regard to the financial arrangements. The Minister has been particularly struck with the anomalies and confusions that have arisen in the administration of the subsidy under the slum clearance scheme. What has resulted is this: Applying a formula that he is compelled to apply—it is not his fault or that of his predecessor, but the fault is that there is a formula—in some cases the application of the formula makes the Exchequer contribution so small that it is almost impossible for any slum clearance at all to be done, while in other places the amount of Exchequer contribution is so great that the houses could be let for almost nothing at all. In that case the Minister finds himself in an embarrassing position. The local authorities are embarrassed also. It is quite obvious that private enterprise cannot compete with houses that can be built and let for practically no rent at all.

The Minister finds that he has either to lay down a formula or come to this House and ask for a free hand. No Minister hitherto has had the temerity to come to the House and say, "Give me an entirely free hand." Each Minister has prescribed a formula. The Addison Act provided its formula and the Chamberlain Act did so. But you cannot do it by formula. It does not matter how many factors there may be, fixed or variable, the application of any formula is bound to land the Minister in a dilemma. There is confusion upon confusion; there are chaos and anomalies which the Minister is most anxious to remove. The only way to remove them is to give him a free hand—"Let me deal with the whole lot. I will deal with subsequent applications, having regard to the whole of their financial arrange- ments." That is tantamount to giving him a free hand, placing a local authority entirely at his mercy and taking the matter entirely out of the hands of this House.

One does not know what he is going to do subsequently in regard to new housing provisions, except in respect of tenements, of course, in which the Exchequer contribution is fixed. Over all others he has an entirely free hand. What we shall come to ultimately, I fear, will be that such will be the extent of the anomalies and confusion in regard to the finance of these various Acts that some Minister will come to this Huse and will present a very plausible case for saying that the whole of the housing service has become so extremely complicated that the right thing to do is to take it entirely out of the hands of local authorities, to put it entirely in the hands of the Minister of Health and to let it be administered in that way. That is where we are heading, and it is an extremely unsatisfactory condition. Personally I regret it greatly. All I can say with regard to this Bill is that the best should be done with it in Committee, that the worst features should be removed and the best features retained.

6.50 p.m.

I rather regret that the hon. Member for Barrow-in-Furness (Sir J. Walker-Smith) led us so far up the garden path and no further. He told us that he had been into hundreds of ticketed houses in Scotland in the middle of the night. I should like to know what happened when he got inside. I cannot feel the same revulsion to this Bill that the hon. Gentleman has expressed. On the other hand I feel that we cannot have an A1 nation with C1 houses, and I welcome the Bill because we are tackling the problem at the C1 end. I think I have heard every speech made on this Bill. I have heard very little in the way of definite criticism of the principles of the Bill. The most damaging criticism came from the right hon. Member for Swindon (Dr. Addison), but before the end we found that he was apparently reading the Bill wrongly, or at any rate that he and the Minister were not of the same opinion as to what the Bill meant. That being so, personally I should back the Minister on it.

But the hon. Member for Barrow-in-Furness referred to another thing. He referred to a question that had been raised by the right hon. Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood). I much regret that the right hon. Member for Wakefield is not present, because I want to refer to his speech also. I rather felt that the hon. Gentleman was rather mixing up the Rural Housing Act of 1931 with the Housing (Rural Workers) Act of 1926. What I am concerned with is that the right hon. Member for Wakefield said that he could have provided 40,000 houses for the agricultural workers if the National Government had not sat on the Act that he introduced in 1931. But, as has been pointed out, there were only 7,000 applications for houses altogether. The smallness of the number may have been due to special circumstances. I agree. The times were very bad and the district councils did not put in their applications. But there is more in it than meets the eye. When the right hon. Member for Wakefield goes round to meetings in rural districts I am sure he says, "I provided £50 per house for the agricultural workers." That sounds very well at a meeting of agricultural workers. But what was the actual truth? Is not the real answer that already under the 1924 Act there was provided £11 a house for 40 years, which meant £440 for the district council, and would not those councils rather have that than the £50? I have not time to go into that further.

I want to make this point about the Bill: We are touching the greatest evil of our time, an even greater evil than slum clearance. Those who served, as I did, during the War in a brigade which contained London troops learned one fact. The men loved their houses. They felt that those houses and their environment were the only thing they wanted. Yet after the War, when I went to look at the houses, I found that they were often slum houses of the very worst description in North London. But they were houses, and they were the homes of those men. I do not agree with the hon. Member for East Fulham (Mr. Wilmot) who pleaded for flats. I think flats are a mistake. All flats are soulless and soul-devouring. Though I realise that the Minister has to start with flats on parts of the re-development sites, I cannot think that it is necessary for him to cover the whole of those sites with flats. It may be all very well in Paris, Vienna or Berlin, where people are brought up in flats, but here people are accustomed to look upon a house as their home.

There was another thing that was said by an hon. Member who is chairman, I believe, of the Housing Committee of the London County Council. He spoke of the difficulty that he anticipated as regards alternative accommodation under the Bill. I have dealt with a great number of cases of alternative accommodation and I am certain that the hon. Member is right. If there is anything on which the Bill is going to founder it is that question of alternative accommodation. I am sure that before the Bill passes into law we must include in it an entirely different definition; otherwise every single case will be foundered by astute lawyers, who can always argue that there is not the necessary suitable alternative accommodation.

Let me turn to the problem of the rural areas. Before the Bill came along we had arrived at an absolute deadlock in this matter. Just before Christmas the Minister, in answer to a question, stated that in the year ended 30th September, 1934, there were 3,860 houses built in the rural areas and 1,215 which had been reconditioned in the same period. That was 5,000 in all. There are various reasons for the deadlock. I admit that private enterprise has not functioned in the rural districts since the abolition of the subsidy, and it cannot be expected to do so in view of the low rent which can be obtained in those districts. There is another reason with which hon. Members opposite will probably not agree. The break-up of the great estates has undoubtedly increased the rural housing problem enormously. One estate in my constituency was broken up six weeks ago. It included 13,000 acres and six villages. From time immemorial the houses in those villages have been kept in repair by the staff of that estate. They have now passed in one fell swoop from the hands of one family into the hands of more than 100 others, and I am certain that the people who live in those houses are going to suffer.

Local authorities have grappled with the problem of rural housing to the best of their ability and I think very successfully. At least 50 per cent. of the villages have been provided with new houses since the War. Slum clearance has not touched these rural areas to any great extent. Perhaps the sum total amounts to an average of one house per village. Now we come down to where the Bill is really going to benefit us in the rural areas, that is in regard to overcrowding. Undoubtedly we are grateful for the subsidy, which is extremely generous. We need special treatment in the rural areas and we have got it under the Bill. As far as overcrowding is concerned I think the Bill will do the job and that overcrowding will be ended. With low-rated areas like ours I reckon we shall be able to build houses at something like 3s. 9d. rent and even less than the 3s. to 5s. average quoted by the Minister yesterday. It is difficult to assess the actual overcrowding that there is in rural districts. In my part of the country the average is about 2½ per cent. of the families, but in certain areas it is worse. The area of the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) is the worst purely rural area in the country, and that no doubt accounts for his interest in housing. Our problem here as regards overcrowding in the rural areas is the segregation of the sexes.

The right hon. Member for North Cornwall (Sir F. Acland) brought forward a point yesterday as to the standard prescribed. I am perfectly certain that for the rural areas the standard in the Bill is too low. I would beg the Minister to consider the possibility of dropping the living room out of the standard for the rural areas. In the rural areas we are perhaps more advanced than the people in the urban areas. The Minister told us quite frankly yesterday that the standard he is proposing to-day is not his ideal. He said that it was a beginning and that he had to stick to a low standard. I suggest that he could with great advantage make the standard higher in the rural areas. We have in the rural areas a problem of overcrowding different from anybody else. In the towns you have an inner circle of shabby genteel houses which are crumbling down and which are occupied by many families, thus causing overcrowding. But in the rural areas we have new houses that are being overcrowded. The old houses are decayed, and they will not stand overcrowding. The result is that since the building of new houses at high rents the tenants have let off some of their rooms, and overcrowding has resulted at once. Therefore, I welcome one provision that the Minister has made, namely, his insistence that when these overcrowded houses are replaced they shall be definitely set aside for the agricultural population.

There is one question I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to answer. What will happen to the rest of the people who live in the rural areas? The agricultural population of course comprises the most of them, but there is another strata of rural society which can afford to pay higher rents. These people are to be found in all the villages and the country towns. They are retired people—postmen, civil servants, tradesmen, tradesmen's assistants, and so on. There is a large number of them. They cannot be housed under the subsidy under Section 30 of the Bill. Can they be housed under Section 29? If that be possible, then I would like to suggest that some provision ought to be made to protect these people being ousted by the week-enders. That is a thing from which we suffer very much. All the houses built under the 1919 Act are now beyond the reach of the agricultural population, and often, and very regrettably, they have gone to men who just come in for the week-end.

I must mention one other matter. The question of decay is one of our greatest problems in the rural area. In this Bill the Minister has given considerable space to the Housing (Rural Workers) Act. I was so encouraged by the amount of attention given to that Act in this Bill that I hoped the Minister would make some rather strong reference to it yesterday. The Act has undoubtedly been a dismal failure, and the rock on which it has foundered, I think, is that the wrong people have always applied for assistance under it. I remember, as the member of a county committee, that the first application we got under that Act was from an absentee landlord who had never looked after his houses. He came and asked for a grant of public money. The men sitting on the committee had done their best as private owners to keep up their houses without coming on the rates, and the first man to ask us for assistance out of the rates was the very man who had never done anything himself.

I would thank the Minister for having made it possible for the councils themselves to operate this Act. I am sure that is a step in the right direction. But I am sure that the Minister has got to be bolder than that. I would suggest that, if he really wants to deal with the rural problem of re-conditioning houses, he should first of all arrange for a survey. I would suggest that the council should be allowed to carry out a survey for this purpose at the same time as they carry out their survey for overcrowding. I would also suggest that unless the county councils particularly object their power should be transferred to the rural district councils, and that if necessary compulsorily powers under the Act should be used.

There is another problem that the Minister has got to face in the rural areas, and it is that of those houses which are only overcrowded by reason of the fact that too many married couples live in them. That is one of our great problems. Young people marry, and there is no place for them to go to because we have not been able to build houses in recent years in the agricultural districts. I should like to see that problem of two or three married couples living in the same house and yet not overcrowding it according to this standard brought under the Minister's consideration. To sum up, I would say that we in the rural areas provide a reservoir that strengthens and revitalises the town. We can only provide that necessary population if we get the right kind of housing conditions. I believe that under this Bill we shall take a good step forward. It is not solving all our problems, but this Bill at any rate will get at the one problem that is most vital, the problem of overcrowding. The Government merely by dealing with that will start a wider interest in housing in the country districts, and I think the wheels of housing activity in the countryside will revolve much faster in the future than they have done in the recent past.

7.9 p.m.

I will not follow the hon. and gallant Gentleman into the operation of the various Housing Acts in rural areas, but I must join issue with him on one of his statements. He said that he had sat through the whole of this Debate and had not heard any very definite criticism of this Bill. I sat here a considerable time last night and I have sat here the whole of to-day, and to-day we have had nothing but criticism of the Bill and of the Minister from all parts of the House.

I was talking about the principles of the Bill. I did not say that there had been no criticism of petty points in the Bill.

We have had criticism of the principles of the Bill from all parts of the House. The hon. Gentleman who represents St. Albans (Sir F. Fremantle) damned the Bill with faint praise. He spoke of its advantages and disadvantages and said that everything depended on how it was operated and so forth. The hon. Member for Maidstone (Mr. Bossom) told us that what was really required was State planning on the largest possible scale, the national purchase of materials and so on. I thought at one time he was going to walk over to these Benches. He also spoke of the standardisation of materials, the purchase of concrete entities and things of that sort. Not one of those items is included in the Bill in any shape or form. Then we had the hon. Member for Barrow (Sir J. Walker-Smith) who, as he invariably does on housing subjects, damned the Minister with bell, book and candle. I felt, as some other hon. Members must have felt, a little sympathy with the Minister. Really, I would say to hon. Gentlemen: "Do not shoot the Minister; he is doing his best." The Minister is no doubt largely in the hands of the Treasury, and there is very definite evidence of the Treasury's refusal to produce the goods in connection with this present Bill. The Bill was introduced by the Minister yesterday with a great flourish of trumpets, but I think the whole House by this time must feel convinced that, while there is a certain amount of machinery in the Bill, it affords many opportunities and possibilities of delay and of obstruction. In addition, there is such a lack of adequate financial assistance that very little indeed will happen under the Bill.

I notice that the Minister yesterday was very modest in his references to the 1933 Act. I think I am right in saying that he did not once mention that Act. He claimed some credit for slum clearance activities throughout the country, and I think he is entitled to some credit for the work being done in that direction. But the House must recollect that in this matter the Minister has merely taken action under a Act which was passed by his predecessor, the right hon. Gentleman who now sits for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood). In my view, and I am sure in the view of many hon. Members, the ideal held out by the Minister is a very high one and one to which we can all subscribe; but, while this Bill is an effort in the right direction, it is as plain as a pikestaff that there is one grave defect in the Bill and an awkward circumstance in the general situation.

One must not blink the fact that there are not in this country to-day houses adequate to house the people who are now overcrowded in our cities. We warned the right hon. Gentleman when he took off the subsidies that there would be a shortage of houses; and it is all very well for him to come along three years later with this Bill when the situation has been largely aggravated by the action, or lack of action, of the Government in not building new houses during the past three years. In my submission overcrowding will exist whatever action is taken under this Bill until new houses are built into which those persons are now overcrowded can be removed. Under this Bill it is not an offence to have overcrowded houses unless suitable alternative accommodation has been offered and has been refused. As hon. Members have pointed out already, there exists in those few lines of this Bill every possible opportunity for delay and obstruction pending the final provision of entirely new houses by Government action or the action of local authorities. It is perfectly clear to me that this Bill is no remedy for the situation which now exists. It will be inoperative, useless, a dead letter unless some more drastic action is taken than has been taken hitherto in providing the additional houses required.

I would remind the House that under the Bill the financial contribution of the Government is less than it ha3 been under previous Measures, and that the contribution required from the local authority is greater than it has been under previous Measures. Further, if I read Clause 29 aright, there is no assurance that the Government will make any contribution whatever to local authorities who have to provide accommodation otherwise than by means of flats on sites of high value. Admittedly, when accommodation has to be provided on sites of high value a contribution will be made, but under Clause 29 the Minister will only make contributions if he is satisfied that, having regard to the amount of the expenditure which has been or is being incurred by the local authority, the provision of the accommodation would impose an undue burden on the district. And even then, the Minister has made it permissive. There is no assurance that he will provide the financial assistance and in any event he can only give it with the approval of the Treasury. That being so I cannot conceive of many local authorities — particularly the smaller local authorities who do not desire to provide flats or whose land is not exceptionally dear—taking any advantage of this Measure. I understand that one of the objections which that very representative institution, the Association of Municipal Corporations, has to this Bill is that there is no guarantee in it of financial assistance to local authorities in those circumstances.

I hope that the House will insist on a higher standard in this Bill in regard to the question of overcrowding. The standard ought to be a bedroom standard. On no account should the matter be dealt with on a living-room basis. In my part of the country we would not on any account take a living-room basis. For some reason or other, which I do not follow, in London and some parts of the South of England the living-room appears to be considered a suitable place or at any rate a possible place in which to sleep. In the North of England such an idea would be abhorrent to the poorest of the population where the circumstances permitted of any other arrangement. I hope, therefore, that the House will insist on the Government excluding the living rooms from their computations in this connection, both in the appropriate Clause and in the First Schedule, and will see that bedrooms only are taken into account in fixing the standard.

I now come to the subject of compensation. I had hoped that the hon. Member for West Leeds (Mr. V. Adams) would have been in his place, because I informed him that I proposed to deal with some of the remarks which he made last night. He delivered what was in my view a most outrageous piece of special pleading on behalf of slum landlords and slum property owners in the city of Leeds. The hon. Member sits for a part of the city which I know well, and I am sure from what he said last night that he is not representing the views of many of his constituents. That constituency contains some of the worst back-to-back houses in Leeds, and some of the most insanitary areas, and a very large proportion of the hon. Gentleman's constituents are among the most ill-housed and ill-used tenants in that city.

The hon. Gentleman, however, did not deign to take up much time in dealing with that question. His reference to it does not, I imagine, take up three lines of the OFFICIAL REPORT—indeed I do not think he made any reference at all to the position of many hundreds of men, women and children who live under those conditions in his constituency. His sole concern was to plead for the slum property owner, and to express the hope that the slum property owner might have a special court of appeal. Not only that, but he went out of his way to deliver what I thought, and I am sure many others thought, an unwarrantable and unjustifiable attack on the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield. Now the right hon. Gentleman happens to be a native of the city, a portion of which the hon. Member represents. The right hon. Gentleman is also a freeman of the city, and I assure the hon. Gentleman who temporarily occupies the position of Member of Parliament for West Leeds, that the citizens of Leeds will remember with pride and gratitude—in view of the large slum clearance scheme which they are undertaking at present—the work and the efforts of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield in that connection. The right hon. Gentleman will be remembered in Leeds when the hon. Gentleman who now temporarily adorns that city has long been forgotten.

On the question of compensation, I would say this—and here I agree with the hon. and gallant Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Captain Heilgers)—that the demand for compensation or indeed for public money of any kind is frequently voiced most loudly by those who are least entitled to it. So it is among the landlords. There are many hard cases in the operation of the Slum Clearance Act. There may be and no doubt will be many hard cases under this Bill but those who make the most noise about it are invariably those least entitled to consideration. I take the view—and it may be that in this I am not speaking altogether for my party—that there may be, indeed that there are circumstances in which compensation as at present paid is not strictly equitable or in accordance with the merits of the case. I have felt for a long time that that was so, but one has to bear in mind that under the Slum Clearance Act and very largely under the compensation provisions in this Bill the houses dealt with are those which have been found definitely and clearly to be unfit for human habitation—that is to say houses which are no use for the only purpose for which a house can be used. I do not think anyone in the House would say that it would be right or proper to pay for something which was useless. I think that must be in all cases an overriding consideration. The Minister in the Bill proposes to pay compensation to what he terms the good landlord, that is to say the landlord who has maintained his property reasonably well, and paid for repairs and so forth. As the hon. Member for East Fulham (Mr. Wilmot) pointed out the landlord is already receiving 25 per cent., in the permitted increase of rent, with which to maintain his house in a fair and proper condition for human habitation. In my view there is no justification for the increased compensation provided for in the Bill.

Under the Rent Restrictions Act that extra allowance is definitely disallowed in certain circumstances. It is up to the tenant together with his friends and assisted by the local authority or anybody else, to get it cut off where it is unjustified.

I am aware that it is possible for the tenant to go to the local authority and obtain a certificate to the effect that the house is not being properly repaired and maintained, and is not fit for human habitation, and on such a certificate to suspend payment of the increase, but how many tenants dare to obtain such a certificate and hand it to the landlord, and suspend this payment? Very few indeed, and that provision by the very circumstances of the case is practically inoperative. If there is to be any compensation at all I would like to see the whole situation and the whole merits of the case gone into. In my view, if something is to be done in this connection, the inspector whose duty it is to visit the premises which are the subject of inquiry should have the power to hear all the circumstances, to obtain the evidence of the tenant, to satisfy himself not only that the property is being well maintained but that the landlord has not profiteered, and has only received the controlled rent in the case of a controlled house. If he has received more than the controlled rent he should be made to refund not merely six months over-payments but the whole of the overpayments whether they extend over six month, six years or 16 years. The inspector ought to have powers enabling him to ascertain, generally, whether or not the landlord has been a good landlord in the real sense of the word. The inquiry should also take into consideration when the property was purchased or when it became the property of the landlord; whether he bought it as a speculation as so many have done; whether he had got his money back or had received fair interest thereon, and so forth. The whole circumstances should be taken into account, and in my view that is the only way in which justice can be done to the owner, to the community and to the tenant. The Bill does not deal with the matter in that way.

There is one other matter on which I am going to congratulate the Minister. I must apologise for referring too frequently to the city of Leeds, but in Leeds at the moment and for some years past there has been in force a differential rent scheme which has been subject to some criticism but has also received a large measure of approval. I am particularly pleased to see that provision is made in the Bill for the local authority to make a similar differentiation. Clause 48 provides that I am glad to find, therefore, that the Minister supports and approves the action taken by the present majority on the city council.

7.31 p.m.

There must be a large number of Members present who have much to contribute towards this Debate. I represent a constituency in London which shows particularly bad housing conditions, I will not say in respect of every portion of the constituency—we have some good landlords, one of whom, I believe, is in the House at present, and we have some exceptionally bad ones—and the conditions that prevail generally in that constituency are of such a nature as to warrant a very careful and urgent investigation into the methods of remedying them. The Bill appears to me to afford some opportunities of coping with the situation, provided that a large number of the Clauses are altered in Committee and provided also that the true spirit is behind the expressed intention of the Ministry as well as the actual words in the Bill providing the machinery for carrying its provisions into effect. I say that advisedly and with deep sincerity, because it appears to me that the way in which some housing matters are handled at present does not tend towards convincing one that a sufficiently determined effort is to be made to cope with the situation.

Let me give one simple illustration from my own district. About a month ago I asked a question in this House, as to whether a certain portion of land had been purchased in a very thickly populated area in my constituency by the Postmaster-General or his Department. I was informed that the area had been purchased by them, that a site of 12,450 square feet in area had been acquired at the junction of Hanbury Street and Deal Street, Stepney, for a Post Office garage and workshop. I asked whether the right hon. Gentleman would consult with the Minister of Health before using the site for that purpose, and the reply was given that he would do that with a view to finding out whether it was necessary for housing accommodation to be placed upon that site instead of a garage and workshop. Over a month has gone by, and I asked a question again yesterday and was told that they are still in consultation. The anxiety that is being displayed with regard to remedying housing conditions has induced the Government to introduce a Bill, but has not yet influenced them to take the practical step of seeing at once that in an area which is one of the most densely populated in London something practical is done. It is absurd to talk about building garages and utilising valuable space which is necessary for housing for the purpose of giving facilities for postal services that might very easily be provided in a much less congested area. In these circumstances, I am very doubtful indeed as to whether the intention of the Minister is quite as determined as he would have us believe.

Let me refer to something more. We have been told that in order to relieve overcrowding we must have more houses, but it is absurd to talk about relieving overcrowded conditions until you have somewhere to put the people who are in those overcrowded houses.

I agree, but my hon. Friend supported a Measure, the Increase of Rent Act, which came before this House. My friends and I urged the Minister, before taking that step to be sure that he was not turning people out of their homes or making conditions worse. My hon. Friend on the other hand, supported that Bill, which has been substantially instrumental, in my opinion, in advancing the miserable housing conditions which now have to be coped with. Let me quote from the speech of the Minister of Health himself. He said, and we all agree:

"I will give an instance of the kind of area which we must have in mind in contemplating this picture. It is one of those areas of old, middle-class property which has come down to us. All those who labour in this field know that one of the most difficult problems we have is the old, middle-class property area which is now let off in dwellings of four, five or six flats to a house to wage-earning families, with the reesult that you have families to that number, whatever it may be, living in a house which has only got establishment equipment for one."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 30th January, 1935; col. 367, Vol. 297.]

Of course it was he who made this possible. The last Increase of Rent Act made it possible for these conditions to be created. He allowed "A" and "B" class houses to be decontrolled.

I think it was called the Rent and Mortgage Interest (Restriction) Act, 1933, and I describe it for short as the Increase of Rent Act. It was this Act which took out of control a large number of houses and made it possible for people to sub-let them in flats which have become heavily congested and for which large rentals are being obtained, rentals which the working man cannot pay. These flats are congested, because the average workman cannot pay enough to enable him to get sufficient accommodation for the whole of his family on reasonable terms. I think that before we go much further with this Bill we ought to be assured that something will be done to put that matter right. We ought also to be assured that we shall have some protection with regard to those houses which normally are not out of control, and which because of lack of provision in these Acts are now placed in such a position when they become vacant that the owners can and do sell them and so deprive the man who needs to tenant such a house of the possibility of doing so.

I speak with feeling on this matter, because conditions are bad in East London. In the report that was given recently on conditions in London the North-West ward of Stepney was clearly shown to be the most overcrowded ward in London, with 237.8 persons per acre. Compare this with Hampstead, which had 39.3. Next was the North-East ward, St. George's, also in my constituency, with 208.9, and then came the St. Michael's, Southwark, ward, then North Kensington, and then one very near to me, at Shoreditch, with 201.2 persons per acre. The conditions in those wards are very serious indeed. Many of the people are living in houses which are not fit for animals of a low standard to live in. Yes, many of them are living under such conditions that no Member of this House would agree to allow anybody connected with him or indeed anybody whom he met casually in the course of his daily life to live in for an hour if he could possibly avoid it. These things must be remedied, and this Bill, we are told, is an attempt which is being made to remedy some of the conditions and which, I hope sincerely, will do something towards removing these enormities. That is why my colleagues will vote for the Second Reading of the Bill, at any rate.

In the course of the Debate I have heard much said about compensation, and I agree with my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for South-East Leeds (Major Milner) that the circumstances of each case should be taken into consideration. I certainly feel that if a person who has acted decently and properly is deprived of his house, he should be entitled to reasonable compensation. I do not think he should have his property confiscated, and I do not think any reasonable person would expect that to happen without a reasonable return to him. There is one section of the community which was referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Sir P. Harris) which should be considered too, namely, the small business man, who, after all, has nothing to depend upon other than the goodwill and connection which he has created in a particular locality. Many small shopkeepers depend on that entirely. As my hon. Friend said, he might only be a weekly tenant, nevertheless he has created what to him may mean his all, a goodwill—it may be only a small goodwill—for the business that he has had. I think that possibly the Minister might do well to consider whether a man of that description, if he is moved, should not have some reasonable compensation.

I hope that when the Bill is put into operation we shall have some proper consideration shown to people who are moved from one area to another, that they will be given opportunities of living a comfortable life, not the cold type of life that they often get in some districts where houses have been provided for them under present conditions. For instance, they should not be deprived of the opportunity of having available a shop which sometimes provides the mainstay for food of some of the working-classes, and indeed of some of the other classes. To put it in ordinary language, the fried fish shops have been utilised by the man in the street for many years and have provided a cheap and wholesome food. Some authorities are refusing permission for these shops to be opened in areas to which people have been transferred from the more congested areas. I think this is entirely wrong. The facilities they require should be given to the people. I agree that the provision of ordinary small dwelling- houses is necessary, but for the thickly populated areas of the towns and cities where people cannot get away from their work or cannot find the necessary wherewithal to travel to remote outskirts, districts where in many cases the whole of their lives and the lives of their parents have been spent, where they have got to know and respect each other, areas in which they have felt happiness and comfort, in spite of the terrible housing conditions which have prevailed, in the associations which they have had with each other, the provision of flats is a very necessary thing.

I am glad that the Bill is making an advance in that direction. I hope, however, that precautions will be taken not to make hideous sets of flats. We must ensure that the flats which are erected will be given the proper requisites for the decencies of life and that baths will be provided. The question of a lift, which is so important to those who live above the ground floor, must not be neglected, and lifts must be provided for all such flats. I am bound to say that I am pleased that facilities are to be given for the erection of further sets of flats. There is a good deal one could say in criticism of many of the Clauses of the Bill, and much that can be said and will be said by my friends on these benches in the Committee stage against many of the provisions in the Bill. We hope that with the help of Members of the House in all parties it will be possible to provide a Measure, when this Bill comes to its Third Reading, that will be of service to the community which is looking forward with such eagerness to the removal of the terrible conditions that prevail.

7.49 p.m.

I hope the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down will forgive me if I do not attempt to follow him in his interesting speech, much of which seemed to contain points for which he will find the remedy in the Bill that is now before the House. I have had an opportunity of listening to the speeches which have been made in the Debate. Some of them have dealt with the past, some with the future and some with small points of detail. In the case of the more vigorous speeches which have criticised the Bill, I think I have detected the flavour of that fruit which is known as the sour grape. I want to give an unqualified welcome to this Bill at this stage in its career. We may be able to improve it during Committee, and I am sure its authors expect that that will happen, but to the main principles of the Bill I think that few in the House or the country can take exception. It is a measure which deals with realities, which does not attempt by a wave of the hand to override the existing conditions and the desire of the people that, even in their local communities, they should have a say in their own affairs and in the building of their own houses.

The Bill strikes me as being comprehensive and business-like. It makes it a crime for the first time that men, women and children should live in overcrowded conditions. In laying down the standard for that overcrowding, it does not attempt to fly too high, because if we are creating a new crime we must start at a fairly moderate pace. The Bill puts idle hands and idle money to work. I wonder how many Members appreciate that owing to the Government's slum clearance Act and to this Bill about £200,000,000 will be spent in the next five years. Many people have been calling out that the idle funds lying in the banks should be used for useful purposes, and I can conceive of no finer purpose for which to use that money than the building of houses, the clearance of slums and de-crowding.

I want to deal with one particular aspect of the Bill because, as a professional man, I come in contact with the accounts of local authorities. It is that aspect which deals with the focussing of the subsidies which are given under the various Acts—the Addison Act of 1919, the Wheatley Act of 1924, and the Greenwood Act of 1930 and the present Bill. These various subsidies are dealt with individually. Each one necessitates a careful calculation which often results in extraordinary differences between neighbours who may be living in exactly similar houses almost next door to each other, and who pay different rents because of the results of the various subsidies which apply to the houses in which they live. One Act necessitates the highest rent being obtained and subsidises the local authority from the point of view of sharing the loss. Another requires that the lowest rent possible should be paid, and so on.

The Government's policy in their slum clearance scheme and in this Bill is to direct subsidies and the money which the people of this country are putting up to cure these evils, into the very best channels. The consolidation of the subsidies from 1919 onwards will have the wonderful effect of enabling local authorities to deal with the position in their localities in the best possible way. They will be able to lump their subsidies together and give relief where it is needed. That is one of the finest things in this Bill. We have got away from the uneven subsidies and have put them in the hands of the local authorities to manage their own affairs in the best way they can. If we do not trust the local authorities to do it, where are we? We have to have that trust and to leave it to them until we do it nationally, and I do not think the spirit of the country is in favour of that at the present moment. Under Sub-sections (2) and (5) of Clause 48, indication is given very strongly that the local authorities must, when they re-allocate the money which will be available under a consolidation scheme, give it to the people who need it, to those with large families, to those who are living in insanitary conditions and so on. They are also told that they must adjust the amount of rent where necessary. This Bill gives security of tenure, it makes it possible to re-house people near their places of work, and it connects the rent payable with the income of the family.

I want to deal with one point relating to distressed areas. It seems to me that in counties like Durham local authorities may have great difficulty in working this Bill because of their poverty and because of the height at which the rates stand. Housing associations are mentioned in the Bill as bodies that should be encouraged and brought into being. I wonder whether in a county like Durham it will be possible for a housing association to be formed in the various areas which are hard hit, that this housing association should receive a subsidy from the Exchequer, and that a further subsidy, representing perhaps what the local authority might have to put up, should be given, such further help being obtained from the funds available to the commissioners in the distressed areas. I am put- ting that forward because it appeals to me as a possible way out, and a way by which the local authorities in those areas might be helped.

The Bill envisages a rental for flats of between 8s. 6d. and 10s. per week. I understand that it has been worked out on an average of about £400 per three-roomed flat outside London. A Committee is working under Lord Dudley preparing schemes and estimates of costs for the building of steel-framed flats. The three-roomed flat has two very good bedrooms, a living room, small kitchen, bathroom and lavatory, and is a commodious little place. The cost works out at about £360 per flat. I understand that if such a building were standardised throughout the country a further reduction of somewhere about 10 per cent. could be made. When people talk about standardisation they nearly always envisage an ugly uniformity. But let me disabuse the minds of hon. Members on that point, because the standardisation in the manufacture of steel-framed buildings has long got past that. It is a matter of the standardisation of sections, the foundations and the methods of construction, but it does not mean that every flat is just like every other one. Standardisation does not mean that, but it is a great help in building and is one of the features of our progress to-day. I only hope that where possible the Advisory Committees will get into touch with the various industries—the concrete, the brick, and the steel industries—and get their co-operation in this matter. One section of the steel, industry has in mind at the moment the building of an experimental block of flats, but they are hindered from carrying it out by the fact that they cannot get a site. If we could get that sort of co-operation we should go a long way.

Another matter which I should like to mention is the building by-laws and building regulations as they exist to-day. The Ministry of Health have their model bylaws, which are effective and are very often copied and are most useful, but in the great City of London the building regulations are contained in Building Acts. I believe the present Building Act goes back to 1894. I understand that there is a Building Acts Committee of the London County Council which is suggesting that the building regulations should be incorporated in by-laws instead of in Building Acts, and I hope they will press on with that proposal as quickly as they can, because it is a vital matter.

Let me give one instance of how the building regulations work. A steel frame building to-day needs to have outer walls only four and a-half inches thick, because they are doing no particular work except protecting the occupants from the weather. They are bearing no weight such as outer walls bear in the case of brick buildings. With modern material, which insulates from cold and heat, one does not require an outer wall to be much more than four and a-half inches thick, but the present building regulations in London require it to be eight and a-half inches thick, and that makes a good deal of difference to the cost. The tensile capacity of modern steel is not taken into consideration by the present building regulations of London. I hope that London will put this matter right as soon as possible, because I feel that the amazing confusion in building regulations throughout the country will put up the cost of building very considerably.

It is difficult now, after having waited for some time to address the House, to be too enthusiastic about anything, but I believe very strongly that the Bill is another big step forward. I feel that the Government are steadily building the foundations for future prosperity. They are like those who built the walls of Jerusalem, in that they have to build with one hand and fight off their enemies with the other. They are being sniped at from almost every quarter. When big measures are brought before the House a number of the Committee points are advanced against them; but if hon. Members will look at the fundamental principles contained in this Measure they will see what an advance it makes, and I wish it the very best success.

8.3 p.m.

Few of those who have criticised the provisions of this Bill on the grounds of their inadequacy can have a real conception of the effect that it will have in areas which are densely overcrowded. I have the misfortune to be most closely associated with an area of that kind, and I can visualise the transformation there if only the provisions of this Bill are put into operation. Many hon. Members have criticised the scale of accommodation laid down and have suggested that it is too low. If this Bill were intended to express the final ideal of housing policy I should be inclined to agree with them, but the Minister made it plain in his Second Reading speech that it was not intended to be a final ideal and represented only the immediate objective. It represents only the further line of trenches which have to be taken at this first attack, and when that has been done and the position consolidated then the matter can be reconsidered according to the standards and requirements of that day. But the standards laid down in this Bill will not be achieved without an enormous effort and the greatest enthusiasm on the part of the local authorities. To give an illustration of how big the problem may be, and the effect of the adoption of even the standards laid down in this Bill, I will indicate the position in the city with which I am particularly associated.

The standard adopted by the Registrar-General for the purpose of his reports is a standard accommodation of two persons per room. In his report for 1931 we find that the percentage of persons in England and Wales living in overcrowded conditions is 6.9, but in Newcastle the percentage of persons living in overcrowded conditions on that standard is over 23 per cent., the number being 63,000 people. I believe that is the general standard over the whole of Tyne-side. What an immense effort it must be to reduce overcrowding to the level of this Bill. Much has been done since 1931 as the result of the work of the enlightened authority which is in charge of the area at the present time, but there is a vast work still to be done, and it will need the greatest possible effort of all concerned to carry out the standard adopted in this Bill. There is another matter which is of the greatest importance in this respect. One has to realise that the provisions of this Bill are penal, and that when "the appointed day" arrives all who have more than the standard number of persons in their homes will be subjected to certain penalties. It follows, therefore, that one must not make the position too difficult. If one enlarges the standard of accommodation too much, so that larger houses are required, that will mean higher rents, and the people in the depressed areas cannot afford to pay higher rents. If a higher standard were adopted it would mean that a large number of people would either be subjected to the penalties imposed by the Bill or would have to pay higher rents at the cost of their food, which would be very undesirable. Therefore, I think that for the purposes of this first great advance the standard of accommodation adopted is about right.

That brings me to say a word on subsidies, particularly as they affect rents. I am more interested in the building of single houses than blocks of flats. People in the North do not like blocks of flats, and while it may be necessary for local authorities to erect blocks of flats in the centres of towns in order that the people displaced from old houses may still live near their work, I am quite sure that all the local authorities in the North will prefer to build single houses on their new housing estates. For these houses the subsidy is only £100 per house, spread over 20 years. That figure is lower than the subsidy mentioned by the Moyne Committee, who contemplated a subsidy of two or three times that amount. I do not know whether the Minister has said the last word on this subject in his Bill, but if he could see his way to increase the subsidy it would be most welcome in the depressed areas and would greatly facilitate them in tackling the overcrowding problem. Subsidies affect the depressed areas in two ways. If the subsidy is too low the burden on the local authority is correspondingly high, and must be reflected in the rates, which in turn places a further difficulty in the way of our already harassed and struggling industries. That extra burden must also be reflected in the rents. If the subsidy is low the local authority will have to exact a higher rent in order to make the building of the houses a workable proposition. As I have just indicated, our people cannot afford to pay these higher rents, and the only way in which houses can be provided in the depressed areas at a rent which the people can afford is by a generous subsidy.

The subsidy under this Bill is not a definite sum to be applied in all cases. It is purely discretionary on the part of the Minister, and it is hedged round by a great many restrictions. I know that the Minister said one of the reasons for that was to give an opportunity of dealing with areas where the economic condi- tions are difficult. Those conditions prevail on the North East Coast to an exceptional degree, and I should welcome an assurance from the Minister that the circumstances of our area are such that the full subsidy will be provided. That is of great importance, because not only are conditions bad industrially but overcrowding is dense there, and a large number of new buildings would be needed to remedy it.

The only other point to which I would refer is the Minister's statement that the type and size of house to be provided will be a matter for the local authority. I would draw the attention of the House to this statement on page 42 of the Moyne Report:

Although the Minister says that this is a matter which is left to a large extent to the discretion of the authorities, one knows how great is the influence of the Minister in guiding authorities. This is a matter which we have found to be of pressing importance, and I therefore respectfully invite the Minister to use his influence with the local authorities in the direction indicated in the report of the Moyne Committee. I congratulate him upon having provided a Bill which I am satisfied will operate largely to the betterment of health and toward a higher standard of convenience and decency for many of the poorest people in our land.

8.17 p.m.

While I have been sitting here these two days, I have been wondering whether we were discussing a housing Bill for the people or a warehousing Bill. When the next generation sees the kind of buildings that have been discussed in this House for the last two days, they will say that the House of Commons were not discussing a housing Bill but how to warehouse the people and pack them together. I want to touch on three points: Clause 29 provides for the housing associations and the commissions. I am a member of the national executive of the Urban District Councils' Association. The executive sat last Friday for three or four hours and went through this Bill. They are entirely dissatisfied with Clause 29, and they say:

I come to Clause 29, to which there are four objections. We may pass Bills in this House and put them on the Statute Book, but, if the local authorities will not or cannot carry them out, every Bill will be a dead letter. I say that Clause 29 is tricky, crafty and ambiguous. There are four points in it to which I would draw the attention of the Minister. The first is embodied in these words:

Point number 3 from the Clause relates to the undue burden on the districts by reason either— or not building flats get a £5 subsidy for 20 years, but the rich authorities are to have a subsidy for 40 years of not less than £6. Sub-section (2) of Clause 28 says:

I would put this point to the Minister, although I expect he is already aware of it. The county council's £1 contribution to the rural areas largely comes out of the urban districts, so that the urban districts have not only to contribute 50 per cent. of the £5, but also to help to contribute to the rural councils, through the county council rate; and there they have to contribute for 40 years, while they themselves can only receive from the Treasury £5 if the Minister thinks fit. We ask the Minister to provide that the amount they receive, instead of being an amount not exceeding £5, shall be an amount not less than £5, and for not less than 40 years instead of 20. I hope the Minister will consider the point of view, not of just one Member on these benches, but of the people who will have to carry out this legislation when it is put upon the Statute Book. If overcrowding is a national evil, like the slum evil, we want it to be treated on the same basis.

I have been looking through Clause 24, which deals with housing associations, and I do not see in it anything which says that the local authority is bound to contribute a subsidy as well as the Treasury. The Treasury will pay a subsidy to a housing association if the local authority decides that it does not possess the necessary ability; but I cannot very well conceive of a local authority appointed to look after the interests of its citizens throwing this back into their faces: "You have appointed us to look after your interests, but we have not the ability to look after you as far as housing is concerned, and we are going to hand this matter over to a housing association"—or, as somebody said yesterday, take it out of politics altogether. I will deal with that point in a minute. If some reactionary local authority decides that it is going to ask a housing association to take over the question of housing its people, then, if the Minister is satisfied, the Treasury will pay the same subsidy as it would have paid to the local authority, that is to say, up to £5: but I do not see it stated anywhere that the local authority must also pay a subsidy of 50 per cent. of the £5. Sub-section (4) of Clause 25 says:

I understood that the hon. Member was giving the views of the Urban District Councils' Association. When he says that no local authority should ever pay any contribution to a housing association, is he also stating the views of the Urban District Councils' Association?

No; that is my own view. I stated that I was speaking on Clause 29 as far as the urban district councils were concerned, not on Clause 24. I am not speaking for the Urban District Councils' Association now, either on Clause 24 or with regard to the housing commissioners, to whom I am about to refer. It is suggested in the Bill that there should be housing commissioners to take over the management of the houses of local authorities. I hope that that will never come about. I do not see the need for it. I have attended housing conferences for the last 15 years or so. I have not been on so many sites as the Minister of Health, but I have been on a good many housing sites, and I am satisfied that the majority of them are well kept. Because there are one or two which may be a kind of eyesore to some people, we do not want to damn all the authorities, and I say that the majority of the local authorities manage their housing estates very well. I know that the Minister, or whoever replies, will say that they "may" hand them over to housing commissioners, but it will not always be "may." Before very long there will be an instruction saying that they shall do so. If a certain number hand them over of their own free will, a bit later an Order-in-Council or something else will come about and it will be, "You shall hand them over."

No, possibly before that, though the next Labour Government will not be long according to the way the wind has been blowing since last Monday morning. Some have said that they want to take housing out of politics. I hope housing never will be taken out of the political arena, because people ought to be able to say to their own representatives direct, "What are you doing for us? What have we appointed you for? We have appointed you to look after our interests." Transitional payment has already been taken out of politics and there has been a volcano this week, and the volcano is sweeping from Land's End to John o'Groats. In fact, it swept here on Monday night in the Gallery. Transitional payment is taken out of politics. The next step will be to take the Poor Law and then education out of politics. I hope the proposal to have commissioners for housing will be dropped entirely.

8.37 p.m.

The hon. Member referred just now to a very strange manifestation of Providence. He said a volcano was sweeping from John o'Groats to Land's End. I know that it has certainly not got to Land's End yet. I found it a little difficult to follow the hon. Member's remarks about Clauses 28 and 29, in which I understood he claimed to be speaking on behalf of the Urban District Councils' Association. Apparently his objection was that under Clause 28 the Exchequer contributions are very much higher than under Clause 29, and he thinks that the contributions ought to be levelled, or that the contribution under Clause 29 should be very much raised.

I did not say that the urban districts should be raised, but that they should have a definite amount of £5 put in, not floating about.

I realise that hon. Members have very strange ideas of finance and £5 floating about does not seem so extraordinary to them as one might consider. I understand that the hon. Member wishes to raise the amount under Clause 29 considerably, does he not?

No. I am sorry that the hon. Member's mode of finance and mine are not the same, but he has plenty of money and I have none.

I understood the hon. Member, speaking on behalf of the urban district councils, to say £5 for 40 years. That, of course, is a very large increase on the maximum in the Bill.

I wanted 40 put in instead of 20. The hon. Member is now making me say that I want £6.

Unless I am very much mistaken, the hon. Member drew attention to the fact that the contributions under Clause 28 were very much more considerable than those under Clause 29, and the reason is clear and obvious; flats cost more than houses. I think the Minister may be very well pleased with the way in which the Bill has been received in the House as a whole. The hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for South-East Leeds (Major Milner) said he had heard practically nothing but attacks on it. I have listened very carefully to-day and yesterday, and I have been surprised at the extraordinary consensus of approval. Very often when a Government has introduced a Measure of great importance a wrong impression is created in the country by the fact that supporters who have a grouse against it are the only ones who appear to speak, whereas very frequently in the past as in the present case they appear to be very much in favour of the Measure. I believe to-day has been a very valuable exception in that the Measure has received support from a large number of the Government's own supporters and not many criticisms.

I agree with an hon. Member who spoke not long ago in welcoming the provision for the consolidation of subsidies, mainly, under Clause 48. There have been many housing Acts since the War which have given subsidies, and the conditions laid down have been in every case different. This has resulted in the most remarkable degree of apparent incoherence in the housing policy of successive Governments. I think it may be said withiut unfairness that both the Ministry of Health and the local authorities have bought their experience over a period of time, and that now they know a very great deal more.

In introducing these proposals for the pooling of the subsidy, the Minister has made provision for a very considerable advance in unification and in providing coherence of policy which is so much desired. You often have cases in various parts of the country in which a house built under what is generally known as the Addison Act is close to a house built under a later Act and the rent of the Addison house is very high and the rent of the house next door, perhaps a similar type of house, may be infinitely lower. You may have families of the same size, and with the same income, inhabiting both houses, with obvious unfairness in the case of the man who pays the higher rent. The pooling of the subsidies will enable local authorities not only to level the rents if they wish but also to grant concessions in rent in cases where they consider it advisable. It should always be a principle that where the Exchequer is disbursing money, in the way of subsidies or in any other form, it must only pay out the money in the direction in which it is needed, and also see that it is very fairly distributed. In the case of the pooling of the subsidies, I think we shall see in the future that the money is spent more equitably and that it will be possible for local authorities to make rebates of rent where they consider it advisable and where the man desires it and needs it instead of having to exact the rent laid down by the various Acts. It may be stated and there is a great deal in that contention, that there is a strong objection to what might be called optional rebates, and that all should be treated alike and no preference given at all. I do not think that that is really a sound principle. Where money is granted, it should be granted to those who need it most whether in the form of subsidy, Unemployment Insurance or in any other way.

There is another aspect of this particular part of the Bill which is of considerable importance. It provides for the keeping by the local authorities of repairs accounts which will be averaged over a period of years, so that, supposing a local authority builds or has built a number of houses under a certain Act and all those houses attain a state of disrepair at approximately the same time, as they probably will do, the particular authority is not burdened in any particular year with an enormous bill for repairs. It provides therefore for equalisation. There is that part of the Bill also which deals with the equalisation account. These subsidies are granted generally for from 40 to 60 years, and the loans in many cases go for 80 years, and consequently, when the Exchequer subsidy ceases, the burden on the local authority would be very great, and it is obviously advisable to make provision for that by an equalisation account.

I pass to the Amendments in the 1930 Act. That Act was brought in by the late Socialist Government and it has many merits, but some demerits have come out in the wash. I believe that Amendments are not only advisable but actually necessary. The payment of site value only for unfit houses remains, and I think it should remain, because a house which is totally unfit for human habitation obviously has no value. At the same time, I welcome the provision which the Minister has introduced with regard to bad neighbour houses; houses which are perfectly good in themselves but which have bad neighbours. The Minister hasb properly not given sanction for orders for the removal of houses simply because they have bad neighbours. The Bill will give a statutory sanction to what has been the practice during the last two or three years.

There is one point, however, I should like to make. It may be a Committee point, but I should like to ask the Minister to consider it. It is with regard to the owner being obliged to clear his land when it is scheduled for slum clearance. Since 1890, when a house has been condemned, the owner has been obliged to clear it but the cost has been refunded to him. Since 1930 he has had to pay the cost himself. He may make enough from the sale of the materials to get back his cost, but, on the other hand, he may not. It is easy to claim that the house on this particular site is of no value, and not only that it is of no value, but that it is a nuisance and should therefore be cleared away. We have advanced very rapidly in the last few years in this housing problem, and it may be going a little too far to say to the owner not only that his house has no value, but also that he must remove it entirely at his own expense. If it were possible to devise a way out administratively—and I think that it should be possible—I believe that it would remove a sense of grievance if the local authority took over the sites cum-nuisance instead of ex-nuisance.

I wish to make an answer to various suggestions which have been made in the course of the last few days that an appeals tribunal should be set up. It has been explained—and it is a very natural contention—that the Minister might be prejudiced; that he is, in fact, not only the prosecutor but the judge and the jury. That is in a sense true, but, at the same time, there are wider implications, and one has to consider the other side. The question of unfitness of a house is not, in fact, one which a judicial authority in the nature of an appeal tribunal can usefully decide. It is first, in its essence, a question of general policy for Parliament to decide. After that policy has been decided, it must in general be a question of administration, and the only person, as I see it, who can possibly administer the general housing policy of the nation is the Minister of Health or the head of the housing authority of the Government. It has to be determined according to a general standard which has been set up and which we exact. You cannot possibly determine it by former standards. The Minister in this case is and must be responsible to Parliament for the actions of his subordinates, and if a too harsh attitude is taken up by them he must be answerable, and the complaints must go to him. I do not believe that an appeal tribunal would necessarily be in any way more lenient than the Minister of Health, and certainly not more lenient than the present Minister of Health has shown himself to be. An appeal tribunal is not responsible for the money which it spends, whereas the Minister of Health is, and I believe that even in a Labour Government there would be many open mouths waiting to receive the benefits thrown into them. I think that the Minister of Health would still find that the money which was allocated to him by a Socialist Chancellor of the Exchequer would not be quite as much as he might desire.

I have one or two rather small points to make with regard to the question of re-development. They are really Committee points, and I must apologise to the House for bringing them up at the moment, but some people feel rather acutely about them. The first has relation to Clause 15—the compulsory purchase of land—and I wish to ask the Minister if, in sub-section (3), when the land is taken over for clearance, the public undertakings, the land of which is exempted, include the undertakings of electricity and gas, as they are not specifically mentioned. It would remove a little anxiety if it could be stated that these particular undertakings were also exempt. There is also a certain amount of feeling, I understand, that inadequate compensation has been given in cases of clearance and re-development for mains of these various undertakings, and I hope that the Minister will give careful examination to this matter in the Committee stage.

Finally, an overcrowding standard has for the first time in history been laid down. My hon. Friend the Member for St. Albans (Sir F. Fremantle) said that there had been Acts against overcrowding as far back as the time of Queen Elizabeth, but it was never said in any of those Acts, as far as I know, from then up to now, exactly how many people should live in a house, and it was always left to the administration to say whether a house was too full or not. There have been many attacks on the Minister in the course of these Debates but they have been minor attacks. I should like to congratulate him on his masterly explanation yesterday and at the same time to congratulate him on being almost immune from real criticism. The Opposition have made great play, but it has not been successful play, of the general allegation that the right hon. Gentleman is a penitent appearing in a white sheet. It is said by them that he has found that the removal of the subsidy was such a failure that he has had to come back to Parliament to ask for subsidies for dealing with overcrowding and slum clearance. That is not the case. It is quite clear that the policy of the Government is many-sided. The removal of the subsidy led to vastly increased house building by private enterprise, but at the same time the Government realise, as we all realise, that you cannot in every case economically provide houses for everybody, and that, therefore, you have to combine subsidy with private enterprise in order that the houses may be provided for the whole country.

It may be said that in this Bill we are going too far and too fast, that we have set up a standard which it will be very difficult to maintain and that we ought not to have applied it so rapidly and so quickly. I do not think that there is very much in that contention. In any case, if we know that certain standards are the minimum that we can possibly accept, we must endeavour to maintain those standards and to see that they are the standards of housing for the country. I am fully convinced that the Government's policy will enable rents to be lowered over a period of time and that it will make it possible for the working classes of the country to obtain good houses and flats for those tenants who really need them, at low rents.

8.58 p.m.

The hon. Member will forgive me if I try to take the Debate from questions of detail to the actual problem of overcrowding and the actual picture of the problem. I am prompted to speak this evening because I have a very vivid instance in my mind of overcrowding and what it means. If the House will forgive a personal experience I would say that I had occasion recently to extend my life insurance. After the medical examination was over I said to the doctor: "What percentage of the lives that you examine do you find uninsurable?" He said that it entirely depended on the kind of homes from which the persons came, and he gave me an arresting example. A well known departmental store in London—he gave me the name but, for obvious reasons, I cannot repeat it—decided to launch an insurance scheme for their workers, and this doctor was asked to make the necessary medical examinations. He told me that after he had examined the first 16 work girls he had to write to his insurance company and tell them that it was no use their going on further with the insurance scheme, because of those 16 girls he could only pass three as first-class lives. The rest were suffering from insipient tuberculosis, weak heart, malformations and various kinds of internal disorder.

The doctor, who did not belong to any party, said that the root reason for that appalling state of affairs was the social conditions under which the girls lived; the fact that they had not the necessary light, air and space. It seemed to me an intolerable thing that here, in the richest country in the world, such a state of things should be allowed to continue. Equality of opportunity is meaningless if one class has health and strength and power to enjoy all the pleasant things of life, and the other class has nothing but an uninsurable life. I am delighted that the Government have brought forward this contribution towards the solution of the problem of overcrowding, and I confess that I am at a loss to understand the ferocity of the attack made upon it from the Labour benches. As I listened to the ex-Minister of Health yesterday, I could not help wondering how those jeers and sneers and the mud slinging would have been regarded by the class with whom this Bill is concerned, those unfortunate families mentioned by the Minister of Health—50,000 families living four in a room and 180,000 families living three in a room. I wondered what they would think had they heard the speeches of the Opposition on this problem. They were simply making as much party capital as they could and throwing as much mud as they could.

What is the Opposition case against the Bill? They say that it does not go far enough. Not since I have been in Parliament have I heard of one Bill which the Opposition said went far enough. I believe that if the National Government introduced a Bill to produce the millennium the Labour Front Bench would move a Motion that the Bill be read a Second time this day six months, or they would produce a reasoned Amendment for its rejection. The Bill, at any rate, goes further than anything the Socialist party have ever done on this question. It is argued from the Labour benches that the standards of overcrowding are too low. I agree with the point that has been made that it ought not to be conceded that anyone should have to go to bed in the living room, although I am told—I have no personal experience—that the insanitary practice of sleeping in the room in which you work is still carried on at Eton.

The Government are not laying down a maximum standard. They are laying down a minimum standard, and, what is more, a minimum standard that is enforceable in the courts. That seems to me the most important provision in the whole Bill, and it lifts it from being purely the Departmental Measure which some of my hon. Friends on the Liberal benches have contended it is. The fact that this standard is enforceable in the courts must surely mean that it is incumbent upon the State to lay down regulations that are attainable now, and not at some distant future. The hon. Member for Barrow-in-Furness (Sir J. Walker-Smith) seemed to be very concerned as to what might happen in the dead of night in connection with the inspection of flats. I was very alarmed at the picture he drew, but I was somewhat reassured when, on challenging him, I discovered that it was not of this Bill he was speaking but some Bill that existed only in his fertile imagination. The objection has been raised that this means the creation of flats, and there seems to be some little confusion of counsel on the matter in the Labour party. Are they for or against flats? The hon. Member for East Fulham (Mr. Wilmot) attacked my hon. Friend the Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Sir P. Harris) on the ground that he was against flats and, therefore, that my hon. Friend was a relic of Victorian Liberalism. His charge, as a matter of fact, should have been directed against one of his leaders, the right hon. Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) who made a strong attack on flats in his speech yesterday. He said that the Minister of Health

As far as the Labour party is concerned, there is no such thing as a definite opposition to flats. It is a question of policy on the matter of housing; and in the 1930 Bill my right hon. Friend included the question of flats and gave an option for them to be built.

The right hon. Member for Wakefield attacked the Minister of Health, because he said he was doing his best to drive people living in congested areas into flats. I want to know whether the Labour party are against flats or not. It is a perfectly reasonable point. If they dislike flats, what is their remedy? Would the right hon. Member for Wakefield have no re-housing at all in these areas, or would he take the population farther and farther into the suburbs and farther away from the centre of their work, thus increasing the burden of travelling expenses? Would he take them farther away from the colour and life and companionship of the towns? We have a right to a definite answer from a Member of the Front Opposition Bench as to where the Labour party stand on this issue. But the strangest objection of all is their objection to voluntary societies and housing associations. Why do the Socialist party dislike these house management conditions? Where they have been tried they have established the most friendly relations between landlord and tenant. A new housing estate is often a very soulless business, and these voluntary workers are able to create that valuable personal touch. They can find out grievances and very often carry out repairs in quicker time than if application has to be made to the local authority. In a variety of ways they can offer help and advice of a most valuable character.

Under the Bill the power to appoint housing commissioners is purely permissive. The hon. Member for Hemsworth (Mr. G. Griffiths) produced the terrible bogey that there may be instructions from the Minister of Health turning these permissive powers into compulsory powers. I am sure I am right in saying that no such fundamental change could be made without a definite Act of Parliament. Even when these housing commissioners are appointed they will still be under the direct control of the local authority. Housing commissioners often make just the difference between a disgruntled housing estate and a contented housing estate. Is that why the Socialist party oppose them? Is it because they think that with a disgruntled housing estate they are more likely to get a great quantity of votes for the Socialist party?

Even more surprising is the Socialist opposition to the encouragement given in the Bill to housing associations. They have done magnificent work. I am sure that the Noble Lord the Member for Central Bristol (Lord Apsley) will support me when I speak of the great work which these housing associations have done in the City of Bristol. Bristol Housing, Limited, a public utility society, have provided over 600 houses with assistance from the corporation under the Housing Act of 1923, and have also erected a further 100 houses without assistance. At the recent winding-up meeting of the company the shareholders, after receiving repayment of their investments in full, agreed to devote the balance of £10,000 to the local orthopaedic hospital. The Bristol Churches Tenements Association have accomplished most helpful work in re-conditioning and re-building. An agreement exists between the association and the Bristol Corporation whereby the interest on a captal sum, held in trust by the Corporation, is applied by the association for the erection and improvement of working-class dwellings. The schemes proposed by the association are first submitted to the Corporation for approval. There is no lack of co-operation between the two bodies, and neither the Socialist party nor the Liberal party, nor the Conservative party oppose them, but welcome the work they had done.

The right hon. Member for Wakefield says that the Bill is putting housing into the hands of charity organisation societies dominated by Tory views. What does that matter if it helps to produce houses? Father Jellicoe has raised £250,000 for houses in the East End of London. Would the right hon. Member for Wakefield prefer that he should not have done it? Can no good thing come out of anything except a Socialist town council? Do the Socialist party really think that they have a monopoly of social initiative and human kindliness? I rejoice that the Bill codifies and clarifies the law with regard to housing associations. I wish that the Government had found it possible to go further and ensure that these housing associations could borrow up to the full 100 per cent. they require from the Public Works Loans Board. There may be difficulties in the way of allowing them to do this, but I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will bear it in mind and see if something cannot be done to extend their activities in this direction.

The whole history of social reform in this country is a record of combination and co-operation between voluntary workers and the State. I believe that Clause 23 will expedite considerably the work of public authorities, overburdened as they are to-day with a multitude of responsibilities. There is to-day a great reservoir of voluntary activity. I know that that is true in Bristol, and it is probably true in all the great cities of the country, that the Churches, whom the party opposite have in the past rather regarded as being the friends of the propertied class, are only too anxious to throw in their weight with the politicians in building a happier and finer England. One of the reasons why I so enthusiastically support this Bill is that I believe it gives a splendid opportunity for the harnessing of all this enthusiasm and energy and idealism to the vital work of social improvement and the building of houses for the people.

9.20 p.m.

The hon. Member for Bristol North (Mr. Bernays) will forgive me if I do not comment on anything that he has said. Suffice it to say now that I agree with nearly everything he stated, particularly in regard to his support of, and the support given under the Bill to voluntary associations. In Kensington we have had an outstanding example of social activity in the field of housing and co-operation with the local authorities, and in that way really sound work has been done for the benefit of the inhabitants of the borough. It ill becomes any Member of this House, whether the Member for North Hammersmith (Mr. West) or anywhere else, to make charges against voluntary associations, inasmuch as they are doing good work in the cause of housing.

I welcome the Bill most heartily. It has been waited for in my constituency for very long. Since the War, and particularly in the early years after the War, housing was merely a question of finding homes for people. It was not a question of the rents that people had to pay or the situation of the houses; it was getting the houses built, as the right hon. Member for Swindon (Dr. Addison) knows and has suffered in consequence. That did benefit certain numbers of people in the central areas of cities, especially in a county like London. It benefited the few who could afford to live away at Becontree or St. Helier or Hendon, who could afford the time and the fares, amounting to 1s. or 1s. 6d. a day or more, to get to and from their work. But in the main the 1919, 1923 and 1924 Acts did not to any considerable extent benefit my constituency or the central areas of any town. The 1930 Act had a certain amount of benefit because it tackled the worst of the slums, and about that I will say a word or two in a minute. But this is the first time that Kensington and, generally speaking, the central areas of towns, are to be helped to overcome the main problem, the overcrowding problem not the slum problem.

My constituency contains hundreds of houses which were built for one family. There may or may not be a basement, but there are probably three or four storeys, built in the palmy Victorian days already referred to, for one middle-class family. These houses are now inhabited from top to bottom by separate families, either on separate floors or in separate rooms. Conveniences, lavatories, and bathrooms, if they exist at all, are one to each house, and anyone who has any experience realises the misery and the unhealthiness that is caused by people having to live under such conditions year in and year out without any change. Therefore I welcome the Bill for the main reason, that for the first time the problem of overcrowding, as apart from housing and apart from slum clearance, is being tackled.

A third and main direction of attack against the housing problem generally is introduced by the Bill. But before I come to deal with one or two details of the Bill I would like to refer to an attack which was made on my borough by the hon. Member for North Hammersmith yesterday. I must apologise to him if he is not here, because I did not let him know that I would reply to his attack; but he definitely challenged me to reply, and I think that that should have been sufficient for him to have taken notice. He said that the Royal Borough of Kensington has always been willing, anxious and eager to shelve its responsibilities. He went on to make further charges. Let me deal with that charge—that the Royal Borough of Kensington has always been anxious, eager and willing to shelve its responsibilities with regard to housing.

In reply to that challenge I say that nearly £500,000 has been spent by Kensington on housing since the War, in addition to the help that has been given by the London County Council and by voluntary associations. It is the only borough which has got special powers from this House for dealing with basements. In spite of the recent change in the complexion of the London County Council that body has not yet applied for general powers dealing with insanitary basements. Kensington is also the only borough in the country which uses the 450 cubic feet standard of accommodation, which is higher than the general standard used in London or elsewhere. In Kensington that standard is exercised rigidly. Kensington has also a five years' plan, which has been approved by the Minister of Health, and which deals with 12,000 people out of a population of just over 70,000 in North Kensington. That plan is up to date. There has been no lagging, no making of a plan or approval of a plan and then its being left and nothing done. It is up to date. Eighteen hundred people have already been decently re-housed in new accommodation, and accommodation for another 3,000 is being made by decrowding. I will say no more in answer to the hon. Member's challenge, except that the challenge ill becomes the hon. Member for North Hammersmith, who was exiled from North Kensington by myself at the last election. His speech rather indicated a motive of sour grapes because he is no longer a representative of the Royal Borough.

Let me now refer to the Bill. The first thing that is to be done under the Bill is a survey, and as I understand the Bill there is no reason why the survey should not begin to-day. I would appeal to my right hon. Friend, or to the Parliamentary Secretary, to issue a circular or to make known in other ways to local councils throughout the country that this survey should be made at once in anticipation of this Bill becoming law. That will avoid delay through the making of the survey before the actual buying of the property and re-development of the area can go on. As to re-development, it was stated by the hon. Member for North Lambeth (Mr. G. R. Strauss) and others yesterday that the conditions for re-development were too stringent. I think this criticism also appears in a paper which Members have received from the London County Council. Let me for one moment refer to these provisions in Clause 12. It is provided: this being read as one sub-section, it should be read as three sub-sections. Under that reading of paragraph ( b ) it should be quite easy in London, at any rate, to secure large re-development areas. The other requirements under ( c ) and ( d ) should also be easy to comply with. I suggest to the House, therefore, that these re-development provisions offer a great opportunity to the London County Council and the Metropolitan Borough Councils to re-develop large areas in their boroughs. Hitherto, under the 1930 Act, they have been in a way nibbling at the hard core, but never really attacking the kernel of the problem. There were clearance provisions in the Act of 1930, and I am very glad that they are to go on. There was also the improvement area. For some reasons I regret the passing of the improvement area procedure because in my borough that procedure had been developed, and we have now got a report in Kensington from the Medical Officer of Health showing the real success which has been obtained as a result of the first improvement area. It was the first improvement area in the country, I think, or in London at any rate. This had not been done by any other borough council in London, although the London County Council are undertaking one in Paddington.

But I think the re-development procedure, if I read the Bill aright, will be the improvement area procedure plus town planning. If that be so and the improvement area procedure is allowed to go on, plus town planning, you can deal with a bigger area and you will be able to re-house, if not all the displaced tenants who are overcrowded to-day, a considerably larger proportion of them than you could under the improvement area procedure alone. For that reason, I welcome whole-heartedly the redevelopment area procedure adumbrated in the Bill. We shall see in the Committee stage exactly how it works. At present we are deciding only the question of principle in the Bill, and if that principle be the principle which I have outlined, that of the improvement area plus town planning, I welcome it most heartily. I only wish to deal with two other points. Most of the criticisms of this Bill made by the London County Council are on the grounds of delay and cost. Those are the main criticisms—except for the damp squib of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Swindon.

Except for that the main criticisms of the London County Council are on the ground of delay and the ground of cost. I have tried to show that by undertaking it now there need be no delay as regards the survey. As regards the re-development area procedure, I sincerely hope there will be as little delay as possible. The provisions in the Bill go to show that the Minister is just as much alive to that danger of delay as anybody else. Necessarily, when boroughs like my own have their five-years plan worked out under the 1930 Act that plan is bound to be upset. Nevertheless, I do hope that the Minister will be able in the Bill to reduce this period of six months, if at all possible, to avoid further delay. I think that the point concerning compensation to landlords as regards delay can also be met in Committee, if it is not already met in the Bill.

Let me deal with the question of cost. The hon. Member for North Lambeth, speaking officially, I suppose, on behalf of the London County Council, made the extraordinary statement that if the provisions in the Bill were carried out the London County Council would have to pay 50 per cent. increased cost for compensation. If that be so, surely it is a justification for the new proposals for compensation in the Bill. It must have been an immense injustice to the ordinary landlord if he has lost 50 per cent. compensation to which he should have been entitled. I rather think that on further consideration of this complicated Bill the officers of the London County Council and the hon. Member himself will realise that compensation will not come to anything like that amount.

I think the hon. Member has misquoted me, and I am sure that he does not want to do that. I did not say that compensation would be increased 50 per cent., but the cost of acquisition of the sites, which is something very much more important. That figure of 50 per cent. will be found, I fear, to be an under-statement rather than an overstatement.

I cannot find the reference at the moment, but I read it at the time, and I understood it to mean that there would be an increased compensation cost of 50 per cent. There has been, I think, a general misreading of the meaning of the Bill among local authority officers. I think that on re-reading the Bill the London County Council will come to another conclusion. As a practical illustration of how this question of co-operation with the landlords can be solved I would mention the Southam Street area of North Kensington where the first improvement area in London has been completed. We had to deal there with many landlords and we naturally expected many complaints but the House will be glad to know that as a result of co-operating with the landlords instead of fighting them and as a result of tact and discretion, the borough council have had no complaints from the landlords at all apart from certain complaints at the beginning about premature action by the council. But there are no complaints at all now.

In regard to the postcards which hon. Members, including myself, have received from the London County Council, I would venture to suggest that if this Measure is administer in the way that it ought to be administered, in co-operation with the landlords and not by fighting with them then the landlords themselves will begin to realise the importance of lessening the wear and tear on the user of the buildings. They will realise the importance of being good landlords instead of bad landlords, if you like to put it in that way, and, even if they lose a certain number of tenants, they will find an advantage in the reduced wear and tear on the property. The plumber need not be sent in so frequently and windows will not be broken so frequently as is the case when there is excessive user of the property. The way to work this Measure and also the 1930 Act, under the clearance procedure, is by co-operation with the landlords, and I have given a specific instance of the results of that co-operation in North Kensington. I welcome the Bill most heartily. It may be found desirable in Committee to consider certain proposed Amendments, but as to the general principles of the Bill, such as the laying-down of a standard, the large scheme of improvement areas, now to be called re-development areas, and, finally, the new arrangement for the pooling of subsidies which will have the effect of reducing rents, I welcome and heartily support these proposals.

9.39 p.m.

I rise to support the Amendment. At this late hour it is not my intention to reply to all the many questions which have been addressed to the Opposition during this Debate. I presume that the Parliamentary Secretary will reply to most of the points which have been raised and as regards those questions which have been addressed particularly to me there are only one or two with which I propose to deal. An observation was made by the hon. Member for Darlington (Mr. Peat) in regard to steel flats, and I hope the House will take serious notice of what he said. He was advocating the use of a new type of building, the feature of which I understand is that between the interior and the exterior of the structure there are only three or four inches. I do not know what state of mind hon. Members have reached who urge proposals of that kind and suggest that one class of our people should be housed under such conditions.

The hon. Member seemed to be deploring the use of material which provided a depth of eight or nine inches between the exterior and the interior. This question has always been a matter for serious consideration by all those who are engaged in research work in connection with housebuilding or in constructional work. I do not know what the effect of noise would be like in a building with only four and a-half inches of thickness between the interior and the exterior. Really it passes one's comprehension to hear an hon. Member advocate building down to such standards in these days when we have at our disposal such wonderful resources in building material, in experience, in expert technicians and in capacity to build. One would imagine, listening to such suggestions, that we were being denied access to the ordinary means of providing a civilised existence for our people.

The hon. Member for North Bristol (Mr. Bernays) who is not now in his place asked where the Labour party stood in regard to flats and their relationship with voluntary housing associations. I think the hon. Member must have been in a rather bad temper to judge from the way in which he approached this problem and he seems to have confused criticism with mud slinging. It is not the job of the Opposition always to be joining in fulsome praise of the Government and I am sure that I do not intend to do so in the observations which I am about to make. The hon. Member referred particularly to the appalling conditions prevailing in our factories and workshops and in the homes of our people and he gave an account of an experience which he had when he was submitting himself for a life insurance. He asked the doctor what proportion of the people who submitted themselves for examination came within the category of fitness for ordinary life insurance and the doctor told him that in one big establishment out of the first 16 people who were examined only three were found eligible for life insurance.

I thought the hon. Member was going on from that to a general condemnation of the conditions of housing which have led to such a state of things, but instead he proceeded to attack the Labour party for daring to criticise the inadequacy of this Measure. He asked us, did we consider that it was only Socialist councils from which wisdom came in dealing with this problem. I would like to ask him from where does all this mess come? Who produced the slums, the overcrowding and the bad housing? I am not aware that the Socialist councils have produced the present situation. One would imagine to hear the hon. Member that the Socialist party had been in power and had had opportunities of tackling this problem. Then he was particularly critical of the party's position in relation to the question of voluntary associations. I do not want to make any further reference to-night in the time available to this question, but I understand that the number of voluntary associations dealing with housing in this country is 224. Out of the total contribution of house building since the War, which exceeds 2,250,000—as a matter of fact, it is well over 2,300,000—voluntary associations have constructed 12,000. [An HON. MEMBER: "Oh!"] I would ask any hon. Member who objects to my statement to look at the "Manchester Guardian" for yesterday and see the statement of Mr. Pike, who was the secretary of that Association, that he had experienced considerable difficulty, when before the Minister of Health, in justifying the right of these associations to have a central body because their contributions to housing have been so small. The figures are used by Mr. Pike himself.

Coming to the Bill itself, there is no one on this side who would not congratulate the Minister of Health on the very able way in which he presented it to the House, but the amazing thing about the Bill is not the Bill itself, but the colossal pretensions of the Minister in promoting it. We are told that the main concern of the Bill is overcrowding, that this problem is as obdurate as the slums, and that efforts have so far failed, but that this Bill is the cure. This Bill will deal finally with the evil of overcrowding. That is the statement of the Ministry itself. I am sure the hon. Member for St. Albans (Sir F. Fremantle) will feel particularly glad about that, as he quoted Queen Elizabeth as dealing with slums in the sixteenth century, and to know that now we have a final cure for the slums.

I agree, but the Ministry's statement is that this is the final cure for the slums. Such optimism is ridiculous on the part of the Government, with their provisions for slum-landlord compensation and pandering to the organisations on the outside, as against dealing with the established organisations, such as the municipal authorities would provide them with. I cannot understand why, in these days, it is not possible for this House to establish a committee to advise the Minister. Why do we always want to go to some outside, irresponsible organisation? Surely the elected representatives of the people should have the confidence of the country. Why is it not possible that out of the accumulated knowledge, experience and intelligence of this House such a committee should be established here? I know there is not even a possibility of doing it at the moment, but this tendency all the time to go outside and to get expert advice needs checking. We know what expert advice is; we have had some. We are told that this Bill adopts fundamentally new methods and goes to the root of the problem. What is the root of the problem? Our Amendment says that

One would think the housing problem was a problem all to itself, not associated with other factors of the worker's life. Really this is not going to the root of the problem. It is glossing over the state of affairs wherein the final solution lies. The Minister, the Government, this House, and every experienced person who has dealt with housing knows that housing conditions are rooted deeply in economic circumstances. That is where the housing problem rests—in the absence of capacity to purchase housing accommodation. It is poverty, and poverty alone, which creates bad housing. Slum dwellers and overcrowded slum people are not different species from ourselves. They are living in slums and overcrowded conditions because they are not able to purchase their way out of them. If every family group was in receipt of sufficient income to pay easily the rent of a well-built house, then the builder and the building industry would soon provide ways and means of meeting the demand. Let the House make no mistake about that. Builders are waiting for opportunities to employ their staffs and all the skill that they have, but they cannot afford to build houses to let at rents which it is within the compass of the workers to pay. That is why builders are not building houses. The root of the problem is economic, and it cannot be solved by standards, by punishments, or by surveys.

What I think is really worth while in the Bill is the calling for an intimate survey of housing conditions. In spite of the fact that the hon. Member for Barrow (Sir J. Walker-Smith) may think we are going too far in inquiring into these conditions, I agree that a housing survey should be undertaken, if it is conducted in a spirit of real inquiry, not to see how little can be done, but to see how much can be done. I am sure it will be of great value, though it should have been undertaken long ago. It is well over 30 years ago since I was first associated with the Workmen's National Housing Council and attempted to draw the attention of the people of this country to the importance of housing. We have during that period urged, hundreds of times, the need and the importance of a real housing survey. I have been very grateful to those social groups which have undertaken housing surveys throughout the country. I have been able to initiate and have taken part in a number of them myself, and the conditions which have been revealed as a result of these housing surveys have been appalling and have disturbed the complacency of those who thought there was no real problem in their own borough.

We are grateful to those who live in better class houses for the interest they take, but it is difficult for them to appreciate what living in one or two rooms or in a working-class house means. It is easy to speak about it, but the experience of having to live in one gives a different colour to one's views. The survey should be comprehensive, for information is the basis of action and the foundation of any planning. It is a statesmanlike thing to get information in order that it may be available to the country, but no survey will be useful unless it brings the fullest light on the actual economic conditions which are responsible for people not being able to pay rent for a better type of dwelling. I hope also that the conditions of the survey will be formulated by the Minister of Health, and that it will be conducted uniformly in every community. If it is left to the municipal authorities to conduct the inquiry in their own way, some will take it up with zest and enthusiasm, but others will not, with the consequence that the survey will not be anything like complete. I hope it will not only be uniform in character, but that each local authority will be requested to take the matter up.

The inquiry should not be restricted to areas which are commonly assumed to be overcrowded. There are many streets which are outwardly respectable in which enormous overcrowding occurs. One survey is not enough any more than one census is enough. One survey will be useful to be going on with, but we ought to establish the machinery to enable us to get further information when we want it. The gathering of actual facts is important, but equally important is the fullest publicity for the facts. I hope that when the survey has been taken throughout the country the facts will be made available for us. I would say also in criticism of the Bill that judging from the standards of permitted overcrowding which are set, and from the methods for dealing with overcrowding in built up areas, this Bill should be called a Bill for the confirmation of overcrowding rather than a Bill for abolishing it. I am satisfied with the criticism that has been made that once we lay down the minimum for overcrowding, it will tend to become the maximum. Let hon. Members examine the table which is set out for the purpose of determining permitted overcrowding. It is a crude and brutal assumption that all rooms in working-class homes must be bedrooms. We know that workers are compelled to sleep in kitchens and bathrooms, and that some are compelled to sleep in cellars and basements, but it is not for the Government to perpetuate it or for us to agree with it. If conditions are like that, we should at the earliest opportunity take whatever steps are available to remove them.

A house is built to serve many domestic purposes. Meals have to be prepared, cooked and eaten; the washing and dry- ing of clothes has to be done, and the persons in the house have to wash themselves. I wonder whether we understand that. Do we want those who are overcrowded to sleep in the same room where food is prepared and eaten, where washing and drying take place, and the other activities of the house are undertaken? Are we to regard such rooms as available for sleeping? The standard of overcrowding is such that the Bill will not eliminate overcrowding, but will confirm it. To base the standard of overcrowding on rooms which are lumped together without consideration of their use is superficial and fantastic. Obviously the only intelligent approach is to reckon the size and the number of bedrooms. If we are prepared to take the number of bedrooms as a standard, it will be a definite advance. For many years in this age of plenty we have had lots of experts telling us how little we can live on, and the small amount which is necessary for our existence. Judging from this Bill, it is a proposal to apply the same thing to housing, and to see how little housing accommodation we can do with in this age of infinite building capacity; and, judging from the observations of the hon. Member for Darlington to see how near the outside we can live with only a 4½ inch brick wall between us and the outer air.

We must remember that we are building for a century, not for next week, or next month, or next year. Those people who will come along in the next hundred years will be compelled to live in the houses we are going to build now. That is a tremendous responsibility, and I hope the education of Eton will be such as to enable people to say that it is not sufficient accommodation. With regard to blocks of flats, I recognise that there are conditions where they will be necessary. I do not like them, and I am sure that none of us like them. If you inquire of people who live in a block of flats, they will complain of the stairs. Mothers will complain of having to carry their babies and goods up the stairs; they will complain of lack of space for drying clothes, and of the worry they have in keeping children quiet because of neighbours objecting to their playing; they will complain of the lack of privacy and of the noise. There is a society in the country for the abatement of noise, which regards noise as one of the biggest social nuisances. These people will also complain of the tramp of feet up the stairs, along the balconies and overhead. People who live in tenements will also tell you that they complain of the gramophone next door and of the wireless. Living in a flat is not an undiluted blessing for people who like quietness. People who live in flats can make the lives of their neighbours miserable by not taking their share in cleaning the landing or cleaning the steps.

This problem is not to be settled quite so easily as some hon. Members may suppose. It is not merely a case of building a number of flats and putting the people in them. There are the social preferences of the people to consider. I can tell the hon. Member for North Bristol that this flat building scheme will do us no harm. The people who live in flats will always vote for us, because they are so disgusted with their housing conditions. Further, the building of flats will not do away with overcrowding. We shall only have more families crowded upon an acre of land, the pavements and the streets will be more crowded when they come out of their flats and the district will grow more congested. I should be interested if the Minister of Health would give us the facts as to the cost of blocks of flats and tenements and cottages. I am sure the Ministry of Health are no more desirous of building tenement flats than we are, and are only doing it because it is a case of necessity, and I hope the provision of flats will be limited as far as possible.

Then the idea has been put forward that these flats must be built because men want to live near their work. I should have thought they would have been very pleased to turn their back on the cranes and railways and gas works and tannery yards where they have been working all day. Who wants to live near his work? We ought to be taking the men away from their work to places where they can get refreshment and rest. Take my own industry, in which there are 1,250,000 operatives, engaged in building and public works. None of them live near their work—and that is the largest industry in the country. They all have to go where their work is—it may be in this place to-day and another part of the town to-morrow. There is no idea with them of living near their work. Who wants to live near his work? The people want facilities for moving about. For centuries the housing conditions of the wealth producers have been bad, and I should say we could make a bigger contribution to housing by giving encouragement to the decentralisation of industry. That would be far better than trying to build up into the air. Where there are slums and overcrowding there are usually slum factories. Factories can be just as much slums as the houses in which the people live. And there are slum shops and slum roadways. We ought to go in for a slum clearance all the way round. That we have not done so only shows a lack of co-ordination or the absence of a policy on the part of the Government. They have not realised how one aspect of the question integrates with the other.

The Bill bristles with difficulties, but we cannot debate them on Second Reading and must wait for the Committee stage. Three promises have been given—security of tenure, the house close to the work, and accommodation in relation to the means of the occupier. If families are housed in accordance with their means, the position will be much as it is at the present time, when people are not able to purchase decent housing accommodation. If they were, there would be no difficulty. Next I want to deal with the work of private enterprise in the production of houses, and I would recall to the Minister that he gave a sympathetic reply to a deputation which went to him some time ago to ask for the appointment of additional inspectors to look after some of the terrible houses that are now being sold to an uninstructed public. I have the story of one house here. A deputation came to us about it this week. I have informed the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary that I was proposing to bring up the case here, and I know that they have a copy of the information given to me. Here is an example of private enterprise in the building of houses for our people. These are a few complaints from an individual who is living on an estate at Richmond. I do not think I will read the first one, because it is too filthy, dealing with the lavatory conveniences in this particular house. As to the fire places, his comment is this:

Another complaint is:

No. There are no trade unionists on the job. There are one or two other things I should like to say about it. Mr. Wyatt has had to place two supports to prevent the further dropping of the front door canopy, and the same with other houses which are observed to be in the same condition. How do hon. Members think that the cracks in the floors are being repaired where the floorboards have shrunk? Instead of putting in new boards they are taking ordinary ceiling laths and putting them on edge to fill in the cracks. What is this case? It is the case of a poor man with no knowledge of building, and he has paid £735 for this house. He paid it last July. This is not a house which has been up for 10 years or 15 years. When we talk about houses built by private enterprise becoming slums in the very near future, I think that this case provides evidence. The gentleman himself advertised in the "Evening News" for 25th September, 1934, and he said: quiries about the company I found that there were 5,000 shares of which two had been taken up so that there are 4,998 available for any hon. Member who wishes to take them. The point of this unfortunate man's house is that there are a number of other cases on the same estate. Here is the case of a gentleman who gave me his number—it was No. 58—who called a builder in to inquire the cost of repairs. The builder said, "I would not touch the place with a bargepole," and he would give no price to put it in repair.

The Government supports, with a naive stupidity, the claims of private enterprise, and discredits the idea of municipal enterprise. Competent opinion estimates that under the Bill the cost of the acquisition and clearance will substantially increase. It is proposed to compensate the owners of dwellings whose property should have been demolished years ago and whose houses should have been condemned as unfit for habitation. The hon. Member for St. Albans was speaking to-day in their favour. Surely those property owners have had their compensation in the rents which they have been drawing all these years. What is the idea of being so tender about them? We do not give such generous consideration to the slum dwellers whose health has been undermined, whose vitality has been destroyed and whose moral life has been degraded, crushed, warped and befouled; there is no compensation for them. What about those who have been living under such pestilent social conditions in these areas, when compensation is given to those who have battened upon them? Finally, I would say that public opinion will conclude that the complaints of slum-owners to the Conservative party have had their effect.

10.20 p.m.

I have been living near my work for 14 hours on two days during what I believe to be an historic Debate. Just as the Bill has had a remarkable reception in the Press of the country, so during this Debate it has had a most encouraging reception from Members of the House of Commons. There have been many notable contributions from housing experts, and I am sure the Minister is encouraged by them. The hon. Gentleman opposite, who seems to be so annoyed by the optimism of the Minister, will, I am afraid, be equally annoyed, before I have finished, by my optimism. We take a personal pride in this Bill. We have been living with the Bill for six months, and with the aid of the advice of the very able housing experts of the Ministry of Health, we believe we have given to the country a Measure which for the first time will enable the problem of overcrowding to be tackled.

I have a plethora of points to answer, and I had hoped that I should have been able to talk about housing policy in a quiet atmosphere, without any relation to party politics. It is a fascinating subject, and there is room for legitimate difference of opinion on all these big housing points. But politics have been introduced into the Debate, and therefore, perhaps, for three minutes only, the House will allow me just to reply to one or two charges which have been made, and which must be answered, before I get down to the Bill.

The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) spent three-quarters of an hour of his speech on topics other than the Bill, and mostly tried to justify himself when he was Minister of Health. He made the amazing statement that the 40,000 houses contemplated under the Housing (Rural Workers) Act, 1931, were stopped by the National Government when they came into power. Let me briefly give the facts, so that hon. Members may stop this gross misrepresentation, which I have no doubt has been made in the country. The facts are these. That Bill was forced by the Liberal party—and I had some part in forcing it—on the right hon. Gentleman when he was Minister of Health. A sum of £2,000,000 was put at the disposal of the Ministry of Health, and a special committee was appointed, under the chairmanship of that very eminent Parliamentary housing expert, Sir John Tudor Walters—whose death has been such a loss to all housing progress—to consider applications from rural areas.

The applications were only to be considered in so far as they were received within four months of the passage of the Bill, or, in other words, in so far as applications had come in by the end of November, 1931. In point of fact, only 4,000 effective applications that came within the ambit of the Bill were received. At the time when the committee came to consider those 4,000 applications, the financial crisis ensued—that was not our doing—and Sir John Tudor Walters himself agreed that 2,000 of these 4,000 should be considered in relation to the Bill. But, when the committee got down to them, it was discovered that not one single penny of the extra money over and above the Wheatley subsidy for rural areas was needed to provide houses at rents of from 3s. to 4s., even in the case of these 2,000 applications. So not one penny of that subsidy has ever been used, and in fact those 4,000 houses have probably been built in the intervening years, because what the right hon. Gentleman forgets is that, though the Wheatley subsidy was stopped deliberately in 1933, it actually continued for all houses completed before June, 1934. I have examined the figures, and I find that the average building under subsidy by local authorities in rural areas was about the same as when he was Minister of Health, and, as regards houses built otherwise, by local authorities in urban districts, also under subsidy, the figures are about the same. Sometimes we are up and sometimes he is, but the average is about the same. Let us get rid once for all of the canard of 40,000 houses that the National Government condemned. When he came down to the Bill, the worst thing that he said was that it was a piece of electioneering. He means that, when you go to the country, you choose a Bill with a great human appeal. This is good electioneering, and the whole Labour party will know it. It also happens to be a first-class housing Measure.

The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Swindon (Dr. Addison) made a very welcome return into our Housing Debates. He made six points, and I am afraid I have to write "wrong" against every single one. They are all small Committee points. When he came to Clause 16, he said it was the core of the whole Bill—the valuation of property, where the law of betterment works, under which an owner is not allowed to get an improvement in the value of his property in so far as it has been improved by the work of the local authority. The right hon. Gentleman read the Clause the wrong way round and imagined that the owner was going to get more on account of the work of the local authorities. I do not object to criticism of the Bill, but he should at least inform himself, and, when he says that this is the crux of the Bill, not get the crux wrong. As to the speeches of other hon. Members opposite, they were so contradictory and they vied with each other in searching the Bill with a magnifying glass for small Committee points, and quarrelled to such an extent over them that even now I have not the slightest idea whether they believe in flats or do not.

Now we will be calm again and come down to the Bill. It will be, I think, for the convenience of the House if I shortly restate what the Bill sets out to do and then take the main heads and deal with the questions that were directed to me. First of all on general policy: There are three methods of dealing with overcrowding that I can see, and three methods have been suggested in the Debate. There is the method of a general subsidy and of building new houses as we have been doing for 12 or 13 years. The second is the method which was mentioned by the hon. Members for Gower (Mr. D. Grenfell) and North-West Cornwall (Sir F. Acland) of driving great roads out and building satellite towns, and, thirdly, there is the method of the Government, of direct attack, which involves, in the case of London, a large measure of re-housing in flats on the site and the provision of suitable alternative accommodation for the people for whom it is needed where it is needed and at rents that it is within their means to pay.

I am discussing the three methods. With regard to the first method—the building of new houses—I think that the great majority of Members of the House will agree that you would have to produce 300,000 houses to touch the slum question, and that that would not touch the overcrowding question. I asked our housing expert to answer me this question on certain assumptions which are important from the point of view of this argument. They were the same assumptions as obtained in 1921 and 1931. I asked him to tell me the number of new houses on certain assumptions of 1921 and 1931, and to work it out. It was a very difficult calculation. The answer was the same in both cases—600,000 houses needed in 1921 and 600,000 in 1931—in spite of the fact that within those two census years 1,600,000 houses had been built. That should prove to anyone who was prepared to judge and to accept facts, that the mere provision of new houses is not, in itself, a provision to overcome the overcrowding.

The second method is the driving of great roads outwards and building new estates. It may be very healthy, but I really do not contemplate the possibility of re-housing London all the way down to Brighton. The third method is the direct attack. It is not a general subsidy; it is a controlled subsidy given for the specific purpose of de-crowding certain overcrowded persons and re-housing them where they ought to be re-housed. Let the House remember that to cure overcrowding you have to find the cause. Many hon. Members will agree with me when I say that it is a question of psychology as well as a question of poverty. It is a question of psychology because people insist on living somewhere near their work in spite of what hon. Gentlemen opposite have said. I have recently been round one of the big London boroughs. I am always going round the London boroughs, and the first question I always ask occupants of flats and houses is: "Would you rather live here or live out at Becontree?" Invariably I receive the reply: "I have to get up at five, six or seven o'clock in the morning, and I like to come home to lunch. Why should I and my sons have to double the expense of travelling?" It is purely a psychological problem which you have to meet.

It is economic as well as psychological. After all, it is really a psychological question. It is an invariable instinct in mankind. If you go to Yarmouth for your summer holiday you overcrowd the beach, and if you go to the Lido you overcrowd the beach. The reason why we have not hitherto solved the overcrowding problem is because we have not provided suitable accommodation at rents which the decrowded tenants can afford to pay. I was very much impressed with the speech of the hon. Gentleman the Member for North Hammersmith (Mr. West). He said that if anyone offered flat accommodation at rents of from 15s. to 18s. there would be scores and scores of applications in London. We are not doing that. We are offering flat accommodation in London at an average of something like 11s., including rates.

We have set out to cure overcrowding by a direct attack. Most of us have been reading the second volume of "Marlborough." Marlborough said, "Why build forts along the border," and he suddenly surprised the enemy by a direct attack. My right hon. Friend is the Marlborough of housing policy. He led a direct attack against the slums, and he is now leading a direct attack against overcrowding. We propose to do it by initiating a survey, for the first time in the history of this country, to find out in a scientific way what is the measure of overcrowding, compared with our national standard, and then we are putting the duty on the local authority of providing the necessary new dwellings to abate the overcrowding in accordance with the standard.

The first main line of attack is the survey. Some hon. Members have asked whether the survey will dawdle along. The hon. Member for North Kensington (Mr. Duncan), who made a very notable contribution to the Debate, asked when the survey will start. My right hon. Friend has asked me to say that it can start at once. By the time the Bill is through the House we hope that most of the local authorities will know what the measure of their overcrowding is, and they can then start to build against it. We must except some of the big boroughs in London, where the survey will take a long time, if it is to be done correctly. [An HON. MEMBER: "How long?"] That depends upon the efficiency of the borough. I imagine they will have to increase their staffs. The London County Council has very generously consented to contribute half the cost of the survey. If any Amendment is moved to make the contribution retrospective, no one here will object.

The second big line of attack is the standard. The right hon. Member for Wakefield and the right hon. Member for North West Cornwall thought the standard was too low. I was pleased to hear the contribution from the hon. Member for Newcastle, East (Sir R. Aske). He knows a great deal about the conditions under which his constituents live. He knows their homes. His view was that with this standard it would require a united effort to abate overcrowding. That is the view I accept. It is not the slightest good, when you are laying down a new standard for the first time in housing history in this country to have a standard that you cannot enforce. This standard is not only a housing standard but a penal standard. It is a standard the infringement of which becomes a criminal offence. The House must remember that. It is not far removed from the Manchester standard. In some respects it is slightly lower, but in other respects it is slightly higher than the Manchester standard. We shall discuss this matter at length in Committee. The Manchester housing standard is an ideal standard. We are now asking for the enforcement of a National standard, and I think all the supporters of real housing reform and all sensible housing experts would rather accept the standard laid down by the Minister of Health, in agreement with the medical officers of health of the country, than the private view of some of those who take part in housing debates. The standard has in fact been laid down by representatives of local authorities and medical officers of health whom we consulted on the subject.

The hon. Member for Lambeth North (Mr. G. R. Strauss) made a reasoned contribution to the Debate to which I take no exception. He dealt solely with the Bill, and I presume, as a member of the London County Council, was presenting their views. Several of the points with which he dealt were Committee points, but he also dealt with one or two major issues. One was the compensation provisions of the Bill and Clause 60, which he said would hold up slum clearance. I challenged him on the point at the time. There seems to be a complete misunderstanding on Clause 60. I do not know who advises the hon. Member, but Clause 60 so far from delaying action will expedite it, and has been put in at the request of some local authorities. It refers to the case of a local authority which makes a compulsory order and then suddenly finds that the owner is willing to demolish his property. In that case, provided that the local authority, the owner and the Minister are all agreed, it is possible to substitute a clearance order instead of the compulsory purchase order. But the three parties must agree. That is Clause 60; and to suggest that it holds up the machinery of the Bill for five minutes is absurd. It arises out of a gross misunderstanding of the Clause.

This is really an important matter As I understand, after an order has been made, any time before the land has actually come into the possession of the local authority the owner of the land can appeal to the Minister and ask for the land to be kept out of the scheme. Meanwhile the local authority may have all the plans ready and an appeal of the private owner at the last moment would hold up, most definitely under this Clause, the carrying out of a scheme for perhaps a period of weeks and months.

The hon. Member had better read the Clause again. Nothing happens unless the local authority wants to take action and submit the case to the Minister. It must be with the agreement of the owner; everyone must agree. Do not let us quarrel about silly little points. All three parties must agree. Now I come to a more important issue, and that is the provision in the Bill dealing with the advances for house building. Under the Small Dwelling (Acquisition) Acts, which was passed to enable members of the working-class to get advances for houses, the limit before the War was £400. Just after the War it was £800; and then went up to £1,200. We have restored it to what it was just after the War.

Because we do not think that houses of £800 and £1,200 are needed as working-class houses or to solve overcrowding. It is, however, a Committee point. Let me deal with the question of re-development. Hon. Members have asked what is the purpose of the Bill in regard to the re-development of areas? Our purpose is to give powers such as Parliament gave by Statute for the re-development of Kingsway, which was probably the last big development undertaken by the City of London. Anyhow it was one of the biggest. But it required an Act of Parliament. Under this Clause any district in London can be re-developed without coming to Parliament. There are areas in Paddington, Bethnal Green and Stepney, and indeed all round London, where this Clause will enable the whole district to be re-developed and re-planned, and large sites will be made available for re-housing. That is one thing which will help to deal with overcrowding in London. It will help to clear up the basement problem, among others. If in Committee it is found that the Clause is drafted too closely, we all know what we intend to do and let us do it. Of course the Clause is so drafted to re-plan in relation to de-crowding. It is not the intention of the Clause that you should re-plan May-fair or Park Lane. You are dealing with an overcrowded area under a housing Bill in order to get housing sites and in order to re-plan the whole thing in an economic fashion. Subject to that qualification we shall consider any Amendment which achieves the purpose we have in view.

The hon. Member for Maidstone (Mr. Bossom) made a very interesting contribution on the questions of planning ahead, standardisation and mass production, and he asked whether that could be the function of the Central Advisory Committee. The answer is "Certainly"; that is what he have in mind. It must be remembered, however—I tread very gingerly on this question, because I know how strongly my hon. Friend feels about it—that when you deal with standardisation and mass production it is not the same as the head of a great store dealing with 300 branches all over the country. When you can foresee your programme and arrange your orders, you can standardise and have a time and progress schedule, and you can ring up any of the 300 branch managers and sack them if they do not do what is wanted. But we cannot ring up the housing directors of Manchester and Birmingham and Liverpool and sack them. We are dealing with 1,600 local authorities with a strong measure of independence, and we work in close partnership with them. Subject to that qualification I think my hon. Friend will appreciate that, while he is anxious to explore the possibilities of standardisa- tion, it is not generally realised what we are doing at the moment.

At the Ministry of Health we have a Standardisation Committee which meets representatives of local authorities and makes quite sure that they know the latest products of manufacturers in the building industry. There is also the British Standard Institute, which does exactly the same thing from the manufacturers' point of view. That Institute keeps in close touch with the Government weekly or daily, so that as new inventions are put on the market they are immediately brought to the notice of local authorities. We are constantly engaged in bringing by-laws up to date. I think it will be generally agreed that by-laws in the provinces are pretty nearly up to date from the building point of view. The only complaint I have heard is about the London Building Code. I am not in the confidence of the London County Council, but I understand that there is a chance of their dealing with it in the Council's Bill that is to be presented to Parliament. I sincerely hope it can be done. The Building Code as applied to London is about 30 years behind the practice of a good provincial authority. No one would be more delighted than those who work at the Ministry of Health to know that London will come up to a first-class provincial authority.

The finance of this Bill, that is for the provision of new houses for de-crowding, has been criticised because it is not generous enough. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield said that if only we had kept on the Wheatley subsidy we should have done very much better. I have worked this out and I discover that if we had kept on the Wheatley subsidy we should almost have to pay an agricultural tenant to live in the house. The right hon. Gentleman forgets how much building costs have fallen since 1930, when the cost of a house with land was about £410. Taking the average cost of an A3 house all over the country, this has fallen from £410 in 1930 to about £350 to-day. When you also take into consideration the fall in the cost of money through the prudent financial handling of our affairs by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whereby the interest rates have come down from something over 5 per cent. to something just over 3 per cent., the net effect of the fall in cost and the reduction in the price of money has actually meant a decrease of 3s. 6d. in the economic rent. I know of no finer example of the blessings of good financial policy than that the rent of a house built to-day is lower by that 3s. 6d. than the rent of a similar house built in 1930. This has enabled slum clearance and overcrowding to be tackled with the knowledge that we can provide houses at rents which the slum tenant and the de-crowded tenant can afford. But for that fall in cost this would not have been possible without an enormous burden on the taxes and the rates.

The hon. Member for Darlington (Mr. Peat) made a most valuable contribution to the Debate. He spoke as a business man, and reviewed the finance of the Bill, and particularly the effect of the consolidation Clause. Under the Bill, as the hon. Gentleman pointed out, the subsidies under the several Acts since the War have all been consolidated, and all restrictive provisions removed. That means that the local authorities will have this pool of subsidies to manipulate over all their housing estates; and the fact that we are keeping on the 1930 Act subsidy—the slum subsidy—although it is twice as high as it should be to achieve its purpose, means that for every slum house cleared and a new one built, there will be available 3s. in respect of that house to spread over the whole of the housing estates and to contribute to the reduction of the high Addison rents and the other Wheatley rents.

I am letting out a secret now, but one of our anxieties in slum clearance—certainly in the North of England—has been that a new house can be provided for a rent of something like 1s. 10d., excluding rates. That is a new house to re-house slum tenants. Hon. Members have come to me and said that their local authorities would not clear sums because the rents of new houses were working out so low, as compared with the old rent of the Addison houses, that they would not build them. I am not trying to make a party point but there is the plain fact. The balance of the subsidy which we estimate to be 3s. in respect of each new house built in connection with the slum campaign will be available to lower the rents on other houses on the housing estates. Therefore my hon. Friend is perfectly correct in saying that the effect of the Bill will be to reduce the rents of council houses over the next five to ten years. It will do so for a number of reasons. The first is the good financial policy to which I have already referred. The local authorities are rapidly converting their housing loans borrowed at high rates of interest—5 or 6 per cent.—and are now borrowing at round about 3 per cent., and that naturally tends to lower rents. Secondly, there is the consolidation of subsidies and thirdly there is the continuation of the 1930 Act with its very generous subsidy for five years. These three factors together will reflect themselves in a steady reduction of rents over the next few years.

I should like to underline what the Minister said in this connection. To my mind it is one of the main features of the Bill. Most Members when they go to their constituencies are bombarded by tenants seeking council houses. I am not criticising the authorities because I know that they do it in the interests of good estate management but we often find that those who want houses must have a certain income before they can even apply for council houses. In other words, the poor needy tenant for whom the taxpayer and the ratepayer are carrying a burden of nearly £17,000,000 a year for 40 years are not in fact getting alternative accommodation. Now this Bill sets on the local authority the duty to survey and the duty to provide new houses at the rent which those tenants can afford and no consideration of income will prevent the overcrowded tenant from getting suitable alternative accommodation whether a council house or another house.

I pass to the most admirable speech of the hon. Member for North Bristol (Mr. Bernays) on voluntary housing efforts. I do not think that in these days it is necessary to sneer at public utility societies. It is not necessary to say that they have only built so many thousand houses. That is not their main function. The main function of the voluntary society is to act as a sort of lighthouse in the area where it is situated and to bring such public opinion to bear that the local authority can tackle the problem. I have never heard the Ken- sington Council or the St. Pancras Council belittle the work of the housing associations in their respective areas. The burden on local authorities of slum clearance and of re-housing is of such magnitude that any local authority will welcome support from whatever quarter it comes. The housing associations have accumulated a great experience of housing methods and we bring them into line in this Bill and enable them to work in conjunction with the local authorities. We provide support for them to that end and we clarify, as the hon. Member for North Bristol has said, and codify the law. I am sure that all those who know the work of the voluntary housing associations will welcome the Bill for that reason alone.

The last point is the question of compensation, and here again I would express my gratitude to Members who have spoken on this point for their appreciation of what the Government is doing. I hate talking sobstuff anywhere, but perhaps the House will let me say what I feel as well as what I think. I consider the slum crusade of the Government to be the work which will be remembered in future years as the most notable achievement of the Government. Perhaps my colleagues will allow me to express that opinion. I know the work that they are doing in their respective Departments, but as far as I am concerned I believe that this slum clearance work will make this National Government memorable in history. I think it is the greatest contribution that any Government has ever made. I spend so much of my time going round slums. I do not want to boast, but with the exception of the Minister of Health I really think I know the slum problem as well as anyone in this House. I never go round a slum estate, as one does with the local authorities in the morning, and see the foul housing conditions, without feeling in a mood of dejection and sullen anger. But when one does the contrary process of going to a new estate and sees what is being done there, I feel literally a mood of exaltation—

An hon. Member asked my hon. Friend what he had been drinking. Is that remark in order, Mr. Speaker?

I hardly caught the remark the hon. Member made, but what I did hear seemed to me most undesirable.

I did not hear it. I never finish inspecting a housing estate into which the slum tenant has recently removed without feeling proud to be a Member of this Government and without feeling, whatever other Liberals may feel—and I would not for a moment criticise the attitude of my colleagues—that, so far as I am concerned, I will never leave the National Government as long as this slum crusade is being prosecuted vigorously. After all, it is no mean thing. I was looking up, in terms of population, this effort that we are trying to achieve. We are, in five years, setting out to remove a population now living in indescribable conditions which is equal to the total population of these towns, namely, Canterbury, Margate, Hastings, Bath, Exeter, Derby, Doncaster, Oldham, Blackpool, York, Lincoln, Norwich, Ipswich, Great Yarmouth, Southend, and Brighton. The total population of those towns is our five years programme. The Minister of Health made his appeal in April, 1933, and we have already re-housed a population living in slums—the process of slum clearance is over as far as they are concerned—equal to that of Canterbury, Margate, and Hastings.

I would add that if this Government introduces any Bill that jeopardises the progress of the slum crusade, then some other junior Minister of Health must explain it to the House, and I am not entitled to speak for my right hon. Friend, but from what I know of him I should say that he would not be siting on this bench either. In my considered judgment—and I say this choosing my words and solemnly—the compensation provisions of this Bill will make the success of slum clearance inevitable. I have been terribly worried in the last three or four months at so many friends of mine in the Conservative party, real housing enthusiasts, who are as keen on slum clearance as I am, coming to me with hard cases which I could not justify; and where I cannot justify a thing it makes me doubtful about my own position. But I feel in my heart, and my instinct tells me, that this is a grand work, and I want to convince myself with logic that we are doing no injustice in the process. In the three particulars which are mentioned in the Bill I believe we have gone a long way to solve many of the injustices which have been brought to my notice.

The owner-occupier who has really made an honest attempt to keep his house in some state of repair is neither a goat nor a sheep; he is a chamois, he is something between the two. He has done his honest best to keep his house in a state of repair, and I do not think a little solatium to him is likely to impede the slum crusade. I have discussed this with Labour councillors all over the country, and in their heart of hearts, talking to

me, they say that in their view some of the concessions we make in this Bill will put a new vigour into the slum crusade and drive it to its conclusion. In these days of new deals and planning and big ideas, I believe this Housing Bill will hold its own. It will make any new deal look either old-fashioned or tawdry, because it not only sets out what is needed, but sets out to provide it. I believe this Bill will long be remembered, and that the supporters of the Government will welcome it as the most ambitious, and, at the same time, the most practicable, housing solution which Parliament has ever had the opportunity of discussing.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

The House divided: Ayes, 291; Noes, 46.

Division No. 40.]

AYES.

[11.10 p.m.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)

Goff, Sir Park

Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'k'nh'd)

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. Sir J.A. (Birm., W.)

Goldie, Noel B.

Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston)

Goodman, Colonel Albert W.

Applin, Lieut.-Col. Reginald V. K.

Chapman, Col. R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Gower, Sir Robert

Apsley, Lord

Chorlton, Alan Ernest Leofric

Graham, Sir F. Fergus (C'mb'rl'd. N.)

Aske, Sir Robert William

Christie, James Archibald

Granville, Edgar

Assheton, Ralph

Clarke, Frank

Graves, Marjorie

Bailey, Eric Alfred George

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro', W.)

Baldwin-Webb, Colonel J.

Colfox, Major William Philip

Grimston, R. V.

Balfour, Capt. Harold (I. of Thanet)

Collins, Rt. Hon. Sir Godfrey

Gritten, W. G. Howard

Balniel, Lord

Colman, N. C. D.

Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E.

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Conant, R. J. E.

Gunston, Captain D. W.

Bateman, A. L.

Cook, Thomas A.

Guy, J. C. Morrison

Beauchamp, Sir Brograve Campbell

Cooper, A. Duff

Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

Beaumont, M. W. (Bucks., Aylesbury)

Copeland, Ida

Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)

Bennett, Capt. Sir Ernest Nathaniel

Courthope, Colonel Sir George L.

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Bernays, Robert

Craddock, Sir Reginald Henry

Harbord, Arthur

Blindell, James

Crooke, J. Smedley

Harvey, George (Lambeth, Kenningt'n)

Boothby, Robert John Graham

Croom-Johnson, R. P.

Harvey, Major Sir Samuel (Totnes)

Borodale, Viscount

Cross, R. H.

Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.

Bossom, A. C.

Crossley, A. C.

Henderson, Sir Vivian L. (Chelmsford)

Boulton, W. W.

Culverwell, Cyril Tom

Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth)

Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. C. C.

Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller

Bower, Commander Robert Tatton

Davison, Sir William Henry

Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.

Denman, Hon. R. D.

Holdsworth, Herbert

Boyce, H. Leslie

Dickie, John P.

Hopkinson, Austin

Braithwaite, Maj. A. N. (Yorks, E. R.)

Dixey, Arthur C. N.

Hornby, Frank

Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough)

Drewe, Cedric

Howard, Tom Forrest

Brass, Captain Sir William

Duckworth, George A. V.

Howitt, Dr. Alfred B.

Briscoe, Capt. Richard George

Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.)

Hudson, Robert Spear (Southport)

Broadbent, Colonel John

Elliot, Rt. Hon. Walter

Hume, Sir George Hopwood

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Ellis, Sir R. Geoffrey

Hurst, Sir Gerald B.

Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

Elliston, Captain George Sampson

Iveagh, Countess of

Brown, Ernest (Leith)

Elmley, Viscount

Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C.)

Browne, Captain A. C.

Emrys-Evans, P. V.

James, Wing-Com. A. W. H.

Buchan, John

Evans, Capt. Arthur (Cardiff, S.)

Janner, Barnett

Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

Evans, R. T. (Carmarthen)

Jennings, Roland

Bullock, Captain Malcolm

Everard, W. Lindsay

Jesson, Major Thomas E.

Burton, Colonel Henry Walter

Fermoy, Lord

Johnstone, Harcourt (S. Shields)

Butler, Richard Austen

Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

Jones, Lewis (Swansea, West)

Butt, Sir Alfred

Fleming, Edward Lascelles

Kerr, Lieut.-Col. Charles (Montrose)

Cadogan, Hon. Edward

Foot, Dingle (Dundee)

Keyes, Admiral Sir Roger

Caine, G. R. Hall-

Foot, Isaac (Cornwall, Bodmin)

Knox, Sir Alfred

Campbell-Johnston, Malcolm

Fraser, Captain Sir Ian

Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton

Caporn, Arthur Cecil

Fremantle, Sir Francis

Latham, Sir Herbert Paul

Cassels, James Dale

Ganzoni, Sir John

Law, Richard K. (Hull, S.W.)

Castlereagh, Viscount

Gillett, Sir George Masterman

Leckie, J. A.

Cayzer, Maj. Sir H. R. (Prtsmth., S.)

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

Leighton, Major B. E. P.

Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

Gluckstein, Louis Halle

Lennox-Boyd, A. T.

Lindsay, Noel Ker

Orr Ewing, I. L.

Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E.

Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Cunliffe-

Owen, Major Goronwy

Southby, Commander Archibald R. J.

Little, Graham-, Sir Ernest

Palmer, Francis Noel

Spencer, Captain Richard A.

Lloyd, Geoffrey

Patrick, Colin M.

Spens, William Patrick

Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hn. G. (Wd. Gr'n)

Pearson, William G.

Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'morland)

Lockwood, John C. (Hackney, C.)

Peat, Charles U.

Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur

Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander

Penny, Sir George

Stevenson, James

Lumley, Captain Lawrence R.

Perkins, Walter R. D.

Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

Mabane, William

Petherick, M.

Stewart, William J. (Belfast, S.)

MacAndrew, Lieut.-Col. C. G. (Partick)

Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

Stourton, Hon. John J.

MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr)

Potter, John

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

McCorquodale, M. S.

Powell, Lieut.-Col. Evelyn G. H.

Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

MacDonald, Rt. Hn. J. R. (Seaham)

Power, Sir John Cecil

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir Murray F.

MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

Pownall, Sir Assheton

Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart

Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

Procter, Major Henry Adam

Summersby, Charles H.

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Raikes, Henry V. A. M.

Sutcliffe, Harold

McEwen, Captain J. H. F.

Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)

Taylor, Vice-Admiral E.A. (P'dd'gt'n, S.)

McKie, John Hamilton

Ramsbotham, Herwald

Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)

McLean, Major Sir Alan

Rathbone, Eleanor

Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles

Makins, Brigadier-General Ernest

Rea, Walter Russell

Thorp, Linton Theodore

Mallalieu, Edward Lancelot

Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter)

Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

Reid, Capt. A. Cunningham-

Todd, Lt.-Col. A. J. K. (B'wick-on-T.)

Marsden, Commander Arthur

Reid, David D. (County Down)

Touche, Gordon Cosmo

Martin, Thomas B.

Reid, William Allan (Derby)

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Mason, David M. (Edinburgh, E.)

Remer, John R.

Turton, Robert Hugh

Mason, Col. Glyn K. (Croydon, N.)

Rickards, George William

Wallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey)

Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John

Ropner, Colonel L.

Wallace, Sir John (Dunfermline)

Meller, Sir Richard James

Ross, Ronald D.

Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)

Mills, Sir Frederick (Leyton, E.)

Runge, Norah Cecil

Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)

Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

Russell, Hamer Field (Sheffield, B'tside)

Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury)

Watt, Captain George Steven H.

Mitcheson, G. G.

Rutherford, John (Edmonton)

Wedderburn, Henry James Scrymgeour

Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale

Rutherford, Sir John Hugo (Liverp'l)

Wells, Sydney Richard

Monsell, Rt. Hon. Sir B. Eyres

Salmon, Sir Isidore

Whiteside, Borras Noel H.

Moore, Lt.-Col. Thomas C. R. (Ayr)

Salt, Edward W.

Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

Morris, Owen Temple (Cardiff, E.)

Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (Finham)

Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)

Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)

Samuel, M. R. A. (W'ds'wth, Putney).

Wills, Wilfrid D.

Morrison, William Shepherd

Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D.

Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir Arnold (Hertf'd)

Muirhead, Lieut.-Colonel A. J.

Scone, Lord

Wilson, Clyde T. (West Toxteth)

Munro, Patrick

Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.

Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)

Wise, Alfred R.

Nicholson, Godfrey (Morpeth)

Shaw, Captain William T. (Forfar)

Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir H. Kingsley

Nunn, William

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

Worthington, Dr. John V.

O'Connor, Terence James

Smithers, Sir Waldron

Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (S'v'oaks)

O'Donovan, Dr. William James

Somervell, Sir Donald

Oman, Sir Charles William C.

Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh

Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East)

Lieut.-Colonel Sir A. Lambert War

Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William G. A.

Soper, Richard

and Major George Davies.

NOES.

Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

Griffiths, George A. (Yorks, W. Riding)

McEntee, Valentine L.

Attlee, Clement Richard

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

Banfield, John William

Groves, Thomas E.

Maxton, James

Batey, Joseph

Grundy, Thomas W.

Milner, Major James

Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield)

Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Nathan, Major H. L.

Buchanan, George

Hicks, Ernest George

Parkinson, John Allen

Cocks, Frederick Seymour

Jenkins, Sir William

Salter, Dr. Alfred

Cripps, Sir Stafford

John, William

Smith, Tom (Normanton)

Daggar, George

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, North)

Davies, David L. (Pontypridd)

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Thorne, William James

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

Tinker, John Joseph

Davies, Stephen Owen

Lawson, John James

Williams, David (Swansea, East)

Dobbie, William

Leonard, William

Williams, Edward John (Ogmore)

Gardner, Benjamin Walter

Logan, David Gilbert

Wilmot, John

Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Arthur

Lunn, William

Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan)

Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Mr. D. Graham and Mr. Paling.

Bill read a Second time, and committed to a Standing Committee.

Housing [Money]

Considered in Committee, under Standing Order No. 69.

[Captain BOURNE in the Chair.]

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make further and better provision for the abatement and prevention of overcrowding, the re-development of areas in large towns in connection with the provision of housing accommodation therein, and the re-conditioning of buildings, to make provision for the establishment of a housing advisory committee and of commissions for the management of local authorities' houses, to amend the enactments relating to the housing operations of public utility societies and other bodies, to provide for the consolidation of housing accounts, to amend the enactments relating to housing and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid (hereinafter referred to as 'the said Act of the present Session'), it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament—

For the purposes of this Resolution—

the expression "blocks of flats" means a building which contains two or more flats, and which consists of three or more storeys exclusive of any storey which is constructed for use for purposes other than those of a dwelling-house;

the expression "estimated" means (subject to the provisions of any agreement made before the first day of April, nineteen hundred and thirty-five)—

the expression "accepted" means accepted by the Minister for the purpose of the determination of the contribution payable by him in respect of the scheme;

( King's recommendation signified )—

[ Sir Hilton Young ].

11.21 p.m.

I desire to raise a point on lines 33 and 34 of the Resolution. Under Clause 28 of the Bill, as I understand it, the Minister accepts a definite obligation to pay a subsidy when the accommodation referred to in that Clause is provided in blocks of flats and where the cost of the land exceeds £1,500 per acre. Clause 29 deals with cases where the accommodation is provided either in blocks of flats where the land is not so costly, or in cottages, and in that case the Minister, if I understand the position aright, does not accept any obligation to pay a subsidy unless he is satisfied that, having regard to the expenditure already incurred or being incurred by the local authority, the provision of such accommodation would impose an undue burden on the district, and even then the approval of the Treasury would be required.

Many authorities, and I understand that the Association of Municipal Corporations in particular, take the view that, in the absence of such a definite obligation undertaken by the Minister, it will in many cases be impossible for local authorities to provide accommodation to relieve overcrowding at rents within the financial capacity of the per- sons to be re-housed. I understand the Minister is aware of the point, but the association would be glad if it were possible to leave this matter open for further discussion during the Committee stage of the Bill. I do not know how far that is possible, but, if it were in order. I should be prepared to move the deletion of the words:

Perhaps I had better say that, as such an Amendment would increase the charge, it could be moved neither by the hon. and gallant Member nor by the Minister.

I am much obliged to you for making that statement, but I think one ought to point out, and local authorities ought to understand, that the Minister is not under any definite obligation to pay a subsidy to local authorities for re-housing purposes where that re-housing is not to take place in flats and on land costing more than £1,500 an acre. I do not know what view my hon. Friends would take, but I take the view that we should vote against the Resolution, in view of the form in which it is drawn, and in view of the provisions in the Bill under which, quite clearly, no subsidy is going to be paid to the great majority of authorities, who would, therefore, be quite unable to carry out the re-housing which is the essence of the Bill.

10.25 p.m.

There is, in the same paragraph to which my hon. and gallant Friend has referred, what appears to me to be a somewhat dangerous ambiguity. Lines 33 and 34 contain these words:

"where the Minister is satisfied that the provision of the accommodation would impose an undue burden."

On referring to Clause 29 I see the words:

"in relation to the financial resources of the district."

I have in mind the situation in London. The financial resources of the London County Council for instance are certainly considerable, but also considerable are the responsibilities and difficulties which surround their discharge. I feel that it would be a great improvement if there could be some more precise direction to the Minister as to the exercise of his discretion so that it would not be possible for the size of the rateable value of an authority to be an impediment in receiving the assistance which this Clause envisages. I would therefore suggest that the Minister should insert words in the Clause which would enable him to use these powers having regard to all the circumstances rather than having regard merely to the financial resources of the authority concerned.

11.27 p.m.

I should like to reinforce the hon. Member's appeal. As I read the Motion the Minister is only to have regard to the burden imposed on the rates of the district. That, no doubt, is very important, but not so important as the rent at which the houses are let. Is the Minister sure that he will have discretion to take into consideration the more important fact of the rent being within the capacity to pay of the re-housed tenant?

11.29 p.m.

I can assist my hon. and gallant Friend with an immediate solution of the difficulty. Clause 29 (1) of the Bill contains the words

"by reason either of the amount of the rents."

It is covered by the Resolution which is in the appropriate form leading up to these words

As regards the matter raised by the hon. and gallant Member for South-East Leeds (Major Milner), the apprehensions which he expressed are wholly groundless. No housing authority could possibly be prevented from fulfilling its duties under the Bill simply by reason of the absence of a binding duty on the part of the Minister to give a subsidy in cases where a subsidy is not necessary. Certainly an authority would be prevented from discharging its duty under the Bill if it did not receive a subsidy where a subsidy was necessary for the purpose. It will be an obligation of the Minister under Clause 29 to provide a subsidy where a subsidy is necessary in order that the local authority may carry out its duties. The apprehensions to which the hon. Member has referred, all of which I have encountered before, are groundless and will not give rise to any anxiety in the minds of the housing authorities concerned. The wording of the Resolution must, of course, follow and cover the wording of the Bill, and the actual words of the Resolution are those which are alone appropriate to cover the obligations imposed upon me as set out in the Bill.

With regard to what was said by the hon. Member opposite, if he will allow me to put the other point of view, I would say the obligations of the Minister as to matters which he has to take into consideration are defined with a degree of discretion in the Clause. All the essential matters will be considered by the local authorities, and I do not think we should get a practical administration of the actual conditions of the housing authorities with any greater precision. For the sake of the effective action we all have in mind let us leave it without any more particulars than are necessary.

11.34 p.m.

I wish to raise, even at this late hour—and I apologise to the Committee—a matter which is of some importance with regard to this Financial Resolution. The success of the Bill to which we have just given a Second Reading depends upon two things: first of all, upon the strength and firmness of administration, and, secondly, upon the continuation of cheap money. If we do not get cheap money, we shall not do very much good with this Bill. The subsidy upon which the Minister is relying will be inadequate to fill the gap unless he can rely upon cheap money, so that the resultant rents will be of a character that the people who desire homes can afford to pay. I cannot understand, either with regard to this or a good deal more of the Government policy, why they do not take advantage of the present conditions of the Money Market to raise money by way of loan. Why is it that the Resolution will make a charge upon the Revenue Account? My right hon. Friend the Minister said yesterday that this Bill is dealing with a non-recurrent effort. If it be non-recurrent, surely it should be charged to capital account.

Why should this matter be disposed of by means of a purely revenue Resolution? Why are we going to put the whole of this burden upon the Budget of this year and successive Budgets, without any accurate view of what the burden will be upon the Budgets, say, 5, 6 or 7 years hence? It must depend upon the success of these building operations at various rates of money as to how many houses are going to be built in 5, 6 or 10 years. Can any right hon. Friend say, for example, why the Government are not taking advantage of the present state of the money market to raise a loan of £200,000,000 or £300,000,000, which he could do at a cost for the next 60 years, including sinking fund, of £1,000,000 a year, which would ensure him for years to come a definite outlay each year and regulated amount for expenditure upon redevelopment and treating the over-crowding problem. Why should the Government not have chosen that method rather than the method of putting it into the annual Budget and making it a burden upon the taxpayers—certainly a different kind of burden upon the taxpayer than need be, instead of having some regulated scheme of the kind I have suggested? This is a very important point for the Government to answer, because the answer may well explain to us the whole of the Government's financial policy. Is it the intention of the Government that all expenditure of a non-recurrent nature, like this, is to be borne out of current revenue? Are the Government at any time going to take up the slack that exists between money that is useable and money that is available? Are we never going to attempt anything in the way of a reconstruction loan for the use of the country? These are questions that are being consistently asked in the country, and we ought not to allow this occasion to pass without some explanation either from the Minister of Health or from the Treasury as to the reasons that have seemed right to the Government for putting this burden upon the annual Budget rather than dealing with it by way of loan.

11.38 p.m.

I want to to raise a point which relates to a question which is exercising our minds, and that is, the action which the Minister will be able to take where, according to the Financial Resolution, he is satisfied that the provision of accommodation in new houses or new flats would impose an undue burden on the district. In that event he will be empowered to make certain contributions. I am very interested to know exactly what he is going to consider an undue burden in administering the Act. He has already pointed out that the question of land, and so on, will have to be taken into account. What we should like to know is whether in an area like London he is going to say that because London has a high rateable value, it will not be entitled to receive the subsidy. Is the rateable value going to be the factor determining whether an undue burden exists or does not exist? All who are interested in London housing would be much obliged if he would give an answer on that point.

11.40 p.m.

I hope the right hon. Gentleman will give consideration to the possibility of providing assistance for the building of houses for aged workers who cannot afford to pay high rents. Prior to the passing of the Act of 1933 a subsidy of £7 10s. was available for the construction of two-roomed houses which could be let at a rent of 5s. a week, and by a reduction in the rate of interest it was possible to provide four-roomed houses for something under 10s. a week, which is more than these aged persons can afford to pay. It may be that in towns where there is a pool that the difference can be made up out of the pool, but in the rural and urban areas, where there is no pool, this cannot be done. Under the Housing (Rural Workers) Act a subsidy is given for houses for agricultural workers. Why should not a subsidy be given for houses for aged miners and for other old people? There is a large number of aged people in the county of Durham. The Durham Aged Miners Association has been in existence for 40 years, and the contributions of workmen and owners have provided houses for these aged people. There are some 2,000 of them. In parts of Durham, in my own constituency, houses have been provided for these old people at a rent of 5s. 6d. per week. Is it not reasonable to ask that some such provision should be made in the Housing Bill? The reports of the Commissioners show that there are 40,000 miners in Durham and South Wales who are over 50 years of age, and there is very little chance of their ever being employed again. It would help to relieve the position of these people if houses could be provided at a rent of 5s., so that in the evening of their lives they might be spent in houses for which they could afford to pay the rent out of their small incomes and live in peace and comfort.

11.43 p.m.

There is no special provision for the purpose mentioned by the hon. and gallant Member for Hough-ton-le-Spring (Colonel Chapman) because, where a subsidy is justified under the Act of 1929, it will be paid at the full rate in respect of small dwellings. In regard to the point put by the hon Member for North Lambeth (Mr. G. R. Strauss), I can give the most categorical answer which it is possible to give, and that is that in discharge of my functions I shall have the most careful regard to the wording of the Clause:

"where the Minister is satisfied that the provision of the accommodation would impose an undue burden on the district."

The question is whether it would involve an undue financial burden on the district, and you cannot estimate the burden without some reference to the financial position of the district. But the general reply is in the affirmative. The hon. and learned Member for Central Nottingham (Mr. O'Connor) gave a fascinating and unexpected turn to the debate when he referred to our general financial policy. That question does not, and cannot, arise on this Financial Resolution. He asked why we should pay out of revenue account what should properly be paid out of capital account. We are not doing that. Houses are built out of capital account by moneys raised by ordinary methods. The Financial Resolution has nothing to do with the way in which the money shall be raised. We are not dealing with the capital expenditure which is necessary but with a subsidy to pay the annual charges. You cannot pay these out of capital account. You have to find them year by year, and, if my hon. and learned Friend the right course is to meet your annual charges out of capital, I totally disagree with him. The capital charges for house-building are found out of borrowed capital, and we are dealing with that now. What we are dealing with here is the annual recurring charge in relief of rates to keep down the rents.

The point put by my very hon. Friend and myself is of such great importance that it is desirable there should be no misunderstanding. Do I understand the Minister to mean that the great size of the rateable value of an authority would not debar it from receiving the assistance which this Clause envisages? That is a simple question on a most important provision in the Bill, and one which is of vital importance to an authority like that of London.

I have given the only possible reply, and the hon. member has repeated his question. That indicates that he is not satisfied with the reply. I have nothing to add. Undoubtedly in the discharge of my functions with Clause 29 when I am considering whether there is an undue burden on a district I have to consider the capacity of that district to bear the burden. That is a direct answer to the question and I can give no other.

Question put, and agreed to.

Resolution to be reported To-morrow.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

It being after Half-past Eleven by the Clock, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

Adjourned at Eleven Minutes before Twelve o'Clock.