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Commons Chamber

Volume 297: debated on Tuesday 12 February 1935

House of Commons

Tuesday, February 12, 1935

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

Private Business

Private Bills (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),

laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That in the case of the following Bills, referred on the Second Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:—

Coventry Canal Navigation Bill.

Medway Lower Navigation Bill.

Oxford Canal Bill.

Rochdale Canal Bill.

Sheffield and South Yorkshire Navigation Bill.

South Essex Waterworks Bill.

Ascot District Gas and Electricity Bill.

Clacton-on-Sea Pier Bill.

Bills committed.

Provisional Order Bills (No Standing Orders applicable),

laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That in the case of the following Bill, referred on the First Reading thereof, no Standing Orders are applicable, namely:—

Ministry of Health Provisional Order (County of Holland Joint Hospital District) Bill.

Bill to be read a Second time To-morrow.

Civil Contingencies Fund, 1933

Copy ordered,

"of Accounts of Civil Contingencies Fund, 1933, showing (1) the Receipts and Payments in connection with the Fund in the year ended the 31st day of March, 1934; (2) the Distribution of the Capital of the Fund at the commencement and close of the year, together with Copy of the Correspondence with the Comptroller and Auditor General thereon."—[ Mr. Duff Cooper. ]

Oral Answers to Questions

Coal Industry

Mining Royalties

asked the Secretary for Mines the number of cases in England and Scotland, respectively, where mining development has been materially hampered by the action of private individual coal royalty owners during the last two years?

Since January, 1933, 13 cases have come to the notice of the Mines Department in which persons have complained that the efficient working of the mineral was impeded by the attitude of royalty owners. Three of these cases were in Scotland. In eight cases the complainant made a formal application for an order from the Railway and Canal Commission under the Working Facilities Acts. Five applications were granted, one withdrawn, and the other two are still under consideration. There may, of course, have been other cases of difficulties with royalty owners which were settled privately, but as to these, if any, my Department has no information.

Can the hon. Member say whether the Government are considering legislation for the nationalisation of royalties?

Has the hon. Gentleman satisfied himself that these complaints have been justified from all quarters?

If my hon. Friend will analyse the reply, he will see that that question has been dealt with.

asked the Secretary for Mines what steps, if any, are being taken by His Majesty's Government to implement the recommendation with regard to the re-organisation of the coal trade, contained in the report on the county of Durham by the Civil Lord of the Admiralty; and whether it is the intention of His Majesty's Government to introduce at an early date legislation to secure the unification of mining royalties?

I can assure my hon. Friend that the matter is under active consideration by the Departments concerned.

Can the hon. Gentleman give us any information as to when this Bill is likely to be introduced?

I have said that the matter is under active consideration, and by that I mean active.

Mines Inspectors

asked the Secretary for Mines whether his Department take any steps to ensure that none of His Majesty's inspectors of mines hold office in districts where relatives of theirs occupy positions in an official capacity in the mines?

It has not been found necessary to lay down any hard and fast rule in the matter, and any case of the kind that arises is considered and dealt with according to the circumstances, which may be widely different in different cases.

Has the hon. Gentleman's attention been drawn to the recent appointment at Gresford Colliery, where a son of the divisional inspector of mines has been appointed manager and agent, and to the dissatisfaction caused by that appointment because of the lack of confidence on the part of the men in the work of the inspectors?

I should regret to accept the latter part of the hon. Member's statement. I considered very carefully the situation that would arise in regard to the appointment in this colliery, and in the present circumstances I do not consider that any action on my part is desirable. The matter may need further consideration when the circumstances change.

Has the hon. Gentleman received any letters of protest from private individuals or organised labour against this appointment, and is he aware of any other part of the British coalfield in which a similar case has arisen?

I should want notice of the latter part of that question, but in regard to the first part the answer is "Yes."

Questions

South African Exports (Naval Protection)

asked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs, in view of the announcement of policy by the Minister of Defence, South Africa, to the Imperial Press Conference on 5th February, whether he can give the total annual value of South African exports to all countries which the British Navy protects on the high seas?

As the reply includes a number of figures, I will, with my hon. and gallant Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Can my right hon. Friend state whether South Africa makes any contribution at all towards the maintenance of our sea defence?

I should like notice of that question.

Following is the reply:

The latest complete figures published by the Union Government in regard to the exports of the Union of South Africa are those for 1933. These are as follow:

Trade and Commerce

Linseed (Import Duty)

asked the President of the Board of Trade, whether he is aware of the serious decline in the manufacture of linseed oil in this country from 121,000 tons in 1932 to 61,000 tons in 1934, the lowest figure for over 30 years, and that this decline is due to the imposition of the 10 per cent. duty on the raw material linseed imported into this country from the Argentine; and whether, as it has now been established that a duty on Argentine linseed has not been beneficial to India, that the area under linseed to-day is approximately the same as it was in 1930–31 and the production of linseed is actually less, he will take the necessary steps to remove the import duty on this raw material with a view to saving the industry from further disaster?

There has been a heavy decline in our imports of linseed since 1932, but I am not aware that this is wholly due to the imposition of a duty on foreign linseed. The imports of linseed from India have greatly increased since 1932, and the maintenance of a preference of 10 per cent. for Indian linseed is one of the terms of the United Kingdom-India Agreement concluded at Ottawa.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the total acreage under linseed in India was actually less at the end of 1934 than it was 12 months previously and that the total amount of this seed in India on the 31st December, 1934, was less than it was 12 months before, and if he is unable to withdraw the 10 per cent. duty on linseed, will he favourably consider increasing the duty on linseed oil dumped into this country in increasing quantities?

I shall be glad to consider any suggestions put forward by my hon. Friend. Perhaps he will communicate with me in detail on the matter.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the seed-crushing industry has for over 18 months pressed the Advisory Committee to increase the taxation on linseed oil coming into this country, with a view to saving this industry for our country, and is he also aware that there are to-day hundreds of men unemployed—

Is my right hon. Friend aware that hundreds of men are thrown out of work in East Hull owing to Government action in regard to this industry?

Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that the serious decline in the manufacture of linseed oil is not connected with the difficulties in the import of linseed?

Russian Timber

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the fact that a contract has been signed in London to enable Russian timber to be sent to this country during the 1935 season amounting to 400,000 standards of a value approximating to £6,000,000; and whether he is satisfied that such an arrangement will not affect adversely the use of home-and Empire-grown timber?

I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply given yesterday to the hon. Member for Maidstone (Mr. Bossom).

Poland (Trade Negotiations)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has any information to give the House relating to the progress of negotiations for a trade agreement with Poland?

I am not yet able to make a statement, but I hope to be in a position to do so shortly.

Will my right hon. Friend ensure that the agricultural interests are not sacrificed, as they are in other agreements?

Argentine Shipments

asked the President of the Board of Trade what percentage of imports from the Argentine during 1933 and 1394 were carried in British and Greek ships, respectively?

International Trade

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the repeated pronouncements of the French Prime Minister as to the desirability of reducing restrictions upon international trade, there were any discussions on this subject between His Majesty's Government and M. Flandin on the occasion of the recent visit of the latter to this country?

No opportunity for any close consideration of trade problems arose in the course of M. Flandin's brief visit.

Is the House to understand that no approach has yet been made to the French Prime Minister on this subject since his most satisfactory pronouncement?

No. I think it would be equally fair to say that no approach has been made by the French Government themselves.

Hong Kong (Japanese (Textiles)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will request the Government of Hong Kong to keep a careful check on textile exports from the territory in order to ensure that textiles of Japanese origin are not re-exported under some other designation?

I will certainly bring my hon. Friend's suggestion to the notice of the Governor, but I would remind him that the onus of determining whether merchandise is tendered for import under false descriptions must rest primarily on the Governments of the importing countries.

Canada (Textile Imports)

asked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether he has had an opportunity of considering the evidence laid before the Canadian Price Spreads Commission showing that textile imports are gradually being eliminated from Canada at the expense of declining home consumption, declining home production, and inordinate profits to Canadian textile manufac- turers; and whether he will make representations to the Canadian Government with a view to a more reasonable level of import duties on imported British textiles?

I understand that the Royal Commission on Price Spreads and Mass Buying in Canada has not yet presented its report. It would clearly be premature for me to express any opinion in the meantime on the matter referred to by my hon. Friend.

Is it not the fact that the quantity of British textiles sent to Canada has considerably increased?

France (Coal Shipments)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been drawn to the increasing State pressure being placed upon private French shippers of coal to make their shipments under the French flag; and whether, as this may react unfavourably upon British shipping at present engaged in carrying coal to France, he has considered a remedy?

I have received no recent information to the effect suggested in the first part of my hon. and gallant Friend's question, but, if he has any information which he would care to submit to me, I should be glad to consider it.

Questions

Assurance Companies Act

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware of the obstructions in the way of varying investments deposited with the High Court under the Assurance Companies Act; and whether he will either make further rules or take such other steps as will simplify and cheapen a process beneficial to the interests of policy holders?

So far as I am aware, the difficulties to which my hon. Friend has drawn my attention do not arise from the requirements prescribed by the Board of Trade in their Order dated the 6th June, 1910, relating to deposits by insurance companies. The procedure in these matters is governed by the rules of the Supreme Court.

Has the Board of Trade no power of controlling these businesses and making it reasonably easy for those who wish to vary their investments, to do so?

Any communication on that point had better be addressed to my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman satisfied, in view of recent happenings, that some further powers are absolutely necessary?

As I have pointed out, any communication made to the Government on this subject ought to be made to the Attorney-General.

Anglian Insurance Company

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can make a statement relative to the Anglian Insurance Company; whether his Department were warned some time ago of the possible collapse of this company; and what steps were taken to safeguard the interests of the policy holders?

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can make a statement with regard to the position of the Anglian Insurance Company, and also as to steps he proposes to take to protect the interests of policy holders in future?

After examination of the statutory returns made by the Anglian Insurance Company and in the exercise of the power conferred on them by the Assurance Companies (Winding-Up) Act, 1933, the Board of Trade required the company in August last to furnish further detailed information relating to its business and financial position. Up to that date no representations had been received warranting action by the board. In the light of this further information, the board decided to request the leave of the Court to present a petition for the winding-up of the company. The petition came before the Court of Session on 12th December, 1934, and was temporarily adjourned on terms which involved the provision of additional security for the policy holders. Early in February, however, it became evident that further adjournment was not justified, and on the 5th February a winding-up order was made by consent.

As regards the second part of the question by my hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead, East (Mr. White), the Board of Trade will continue to watch the position of insurance companies as disclosed in their statutory returns and will not hesitate in any suitable case to exercise the powers given to them by the Assurance Companies Winding-Up Act, 1933.

In view of the very serious disaster, involving hundreds of very poor individuals, by the activities of companies of this kind, will the right hon. ^Gentleman be good enough to go into the whole problem of dealing with this sort of company in order to prevent such disasters happening in future?

We have gone very closely into this question, and, as my hon. Friend will see from my answer, we have followed it stage by stage. I have no doubt that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland, who is directly concerned in this matter, within the limits of his supervision and administration will also follow that example.

In view of the experience of the Board of Trade of companies of this kind, will the right hon. Gentleman look into the subject again with a view to preventing further calamities?

Can my right hon. Friend say whether between December, when the company was more or less in difficulties, and February, when it had to be wound up, any fresh business was taken on, thus involving hardship to individuals who had put their money in the company?

Any further information which my hon. Friend desires he had better ask for on the Paper. I am afraid I cannot carry it all in my head.

I cannot understand the right hon. Gentleman's attitude. He has been very rude to the House. Does he not think that this sort of thing makes compulsory insurance against third party risks completely farcical?

That is a matter for argument. My hon. Friend asked me whether I should take certain action, but that certain action ought to be taken by the Attorney-General.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that one of the directors of this company is a sheriff of Scotland administering justice, and, in view of that fact, should not the whole situation be reviewed? Does he think that, as a man sitting in justice is involved in this, it is right that these two things should run concurrently?

It is obvious that such a question ought to be addressed to the Secretary of State for Scotland, not to the Board of Trade.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, in view of what has come out with regard to the condition in which this company found itself, his Department will not go into the matter and see what legislation is necessary to prevent this sort of thing happening in future?

I have already informed the hon. Member for West houghton (Mr. Rhys Davies) and the House that the matter is under constant review.

That is not what we want. Really, the right hon. Gentleman does not do himself justice. We are asking a perfectly simple question—will the right hon. Gentleman's Department consider, in the light of these happenings what legislation is necessary to prevent them in future?

The answer to that question is in the affirmative. It is exactly the same answer as I gave to the hon. Member for Westhoughton.

British Army

Territorial Army (Unemployment Benefit)

16. and 17.

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office (1) whether he is aware that, under the present regulations, the wife of a man in the Territorial Army who is unemployed can draw no benefit for the fortnight that her husband is in camp if he is under the age of 26; and whether, in order not to discourage married men of under 26 from joining the Territorial Army, he will adjust the regulations so as not to place these men at a disadvantage in this way;

(2) whether he is aware that the withholding of benefit from the wives of men under 26 while in camp for a fortnight with the Territorial Army is having an adverse effect upon recruiting; and will he state how much it would cost to pay this in the present year?

I hope to make a statement on the subject of marriage allowance for men under the age of 26 in the Territorial Army in connection with the introduction of the forthcoming Army Estimates.

British Troops, Shanghai (Accommodations)

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he will take immediate steps to secure that the British unit at Shanghai, the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, now quartered in inferior hutments, is provided with accommodation equal to that provided by the brick and stone structures occupied by the French, American, and Japanese troops?

The quartering of a unit at Shanghai is not a permanent arrangement, and I have no reason to suppose that the accommodation now provided is below a reasonable standard for temporary use.

Will the right hon. Gentleman state whether the accommodation is as good as that provided for the troops of other countries?

It is of a different nature. I understand that most of the accommodation allotted to the troops of other countries is of a more permanent character, but, if our troops are not going to remain in Shanghai permanently, and if the temporary accommodation is good of its kind, it might well be considered waste of public money to put up buildings of brick and mortar.

As the right hon. Gentleman's answer contains so many hypotheses, could he see his way to get photographs of the accommodation for the British troops and of that of the other troops?

I do not know whether photographs always tell the truth. I can tell my hon. Friend that we have really had no serious complaints about this accommodation.

Scotland

Milk Marketing Scheme

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether, in view of the admitted great dissatisfaction amongst producers in the south-western area of Scotland with regard to the proposed amendments to the milk marketing scheme in Scotland now upon the Table of the House, he will consider notification of these amendments?

As indicated in the reply given to a similar question on 7th February, a copy of which I am sending to my hon. Friend, I am not prepared at present to make any modifications of the amendments referred to in view of the inquiry to be undertaken by the Reorganisation Commission which has now been set up by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries and myself.

In view of the circumstances, will the right hon. Gentleman consider instructing this new commission to have regard first to the conditions in Scotland?

I am sure the commission will take all relevant parts of the country into consideration.

Barlinnie Prison (Disturbance)

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he intends to suspend the sentences passed recently on prisoners in Barlinnie Prison who were sentenced to various terms of imprisonment for alleged riotous conduct, in view of the proposed inquiry into the administration of the prison?

Is it not rather inconsistent for the Secretary of State to set up an inquiry as to the cause of the not while allowing the prisoners from whom he has inquired to be punished for their share in this alleged riotous conduct?

I do not think there is any inconsistency. The people who were punished pled guilty to the charges.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the general allegation that they all pled guilty is not borne out by the facts; that some of these men disputed it, and that evidence was given contradictory to the case put against them?

The information at my disposal which I have received from the responsible authorities is that these men pled guilty, but, in view of what the hon. Member says, I will make further inquiries on that point.

Conviction, Ayr

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether his attention has been drawn to the sentence of 20s. fine or 10 days' imprisonment passed at Ayr Police Court by Baillie Wills on Agnes Little, on 27th September, for failure to pay an account of 2s. 9d. to Afflecks, furniture dealers, Ayr, to whom she had been entrusted to pay an account; and if he intends to inquire into the case with a view to quashing the conviction in addition to remitting the fine of 20s.?

My attention was recently called to this case in a letter addressed by the hon. Member to my right hon. Friend the Lord Advocate. I have already informed the hon. Member that after careful consideration of all the circumstances of the case I felt justified in advising remission of the fine. The woman pled guilty to a charge of theft and I regret I cannot recommend the grant of a free pardon.

As Baillie Wills, who was sitting on the bench, is the Managing Director of Afflecks, furniture dealers, and tried a case in which he was involved, does it not suggest, in view of the fact that this was a first offence, that the right hon. Gentleman should set aside the conviction because of the illegal trying of the case by this gentleman.

I was aware of the facts when the matter was brought to my attention by the hon. Gentleman, but, as the woman pled guilty, and in view of the facts, I thought it was well within my power to remit the fine.

If the right hon. Gentleman agreed, by setting aside the fine, that the case was illegally dealt with, what difficulty is there in quashing the conviction?

I am not prepared to say whether the matter was legal or illegal. The woman pled guilty, and, in view of all the facts of the case, and of the fact that it was a first offence, I felt justified in remitting the fine.

Housing

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is aware that at the King's Park (Glasgow) housing scheme, which was built by the aid of a Government subsidy, the owners refused recently to give a tenancy to a person who applied for it on the ground that he belonged to the Jewish race, although the person was of good character; and whether he will take steps to see that houses built by Government aid are let to people on the basis of citizenship and not of religious opinions?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, but I am informed that the owners referred to have reconsidered their policy in this matter and do not now refuse applications for tenancy of their houses at the King's Park (Glasgow) scheme on the ground of the race or religion of applicants. With regard to the second part of the question, I have no power to take steps of the nature suggested.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the offer now made by the owners is even more offensive than the first, and that the offer they now make is to set so many houses aside for Jews? As the Jews do not want houses set aside for them as Jews but as citizens, will the hon. Gentleman take steps to see that houses built with the assistance of Government money are let on the basis of citizenship? If the hon. Gentleman has not the power, will he take power in future Measures to see that religion is not a bar to the receiving of a house?

The actual form of the new offer is new to me, and I will have it inquired into. As to the legal position, the statutes which give subsidies for private builders of houses leave with the Department no control over the form of tenancy under which the houses are let. With regard to the question whether such statutory power should be taken, subsidies to private builders have now been given up. The question whether it will be possible to legislate retrospectively with regard to the subsidies already given would require careful consideration.

Does not the hon. Gentleman think it most undesirable that there should be religious or racial tests for houses, and will he make it clear that it is against the policy of the Department?

The question whether I regard it as undesirable is not relevant. The question is whether I in the Department of Health have any power to intervene.

Before the hon. Gentleman finally decides this matter, will he take the facts brought to his notice into consideration, and, in view of the very serious position created by the attitude described here, will he ascertain whether there is any possibility of avoiding this kind of thing in the future?

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland the number of houses reconditioned in Scotland under the Housing (Rural Workers) Acts for each county and the total cost?

As the answer involves a tabular statement I propose, with the hon. Member's permission, to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the answer:

Lanarkshire Constabulary

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he has considered the petition from Detective-lieutenant Anderson of the Lanarkshire constabulary; and what steps he proposes to take to investigate the serious charges therein contained against the Chief Constable and the Lanarkshire constabulary in general?

I have forwarded ex-Detective Anderson's complaints against the Chief Constable's conduct and administration of the Lanarkshire police force to be investigated and dealt with by the Lanarkshire Police Authority, which is the statutory disciplinary authority in relation to the Chief Constable. I am informed that the Police Authority have continued consideration of the complaints until certain Court of Session proceedings, which have a bearing upon some of the charges made by Anderson, have been concluded.

Will the right hon. Gentleman endeavour to speed up this inquiry, in justice to the Chief Constable and to the general public, in view of the serious character of the complaints and the widespread knowledge throughout the area of these allegations of theft and misappropriation of money and of constables who had already been sacked for drunkenness and theft being restored to their positions?

The Court of Session will deal with these matters as quickly as possible, and I can assure my hon. Friend that there will be no delay in dealing with any questions which fall to be dealt with by my Department.

Bird Sanctuary, Tentsmuir, Fife

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he has considered the petition from the Edinburgh Natural History Society drawing attention, on behalf of a number of other societies, to the position at Tentsmuir, Fife, where a valuable bird sanctuary appears to be threatened by the operations of the Forestry Commission; and if he can make any statement on the subject?

I have been asked to reply. The Forestry Commissioners have received a petition from the Edinburgh Natural History Society, and have asked for a map showing specifically the area referred to generally in the petition. When it is received the petition will be considered. Meanwhile I am not in a position to make any statement on the subject.

Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman give aft assurance that the Forestry Commission normally take great care not to interfere with bird sanctuaries of this kind?

Smallholdings

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland the number of smallholdings and enlargements of holdings, respectively, which have been created and settled by the Department of Agriculture during 1934, distinct from the new type of smallholding in the neighbourhood of large towns?

Five smallholdings and 33 enlargements of holdings were formed and settled by the Department of Agriculture for Scotland during 1934, apart from the new type of smallholdings in the neighbourhood of towns.

Questions

Afforestation (Cannock Chase)

asked the hon. and gallant Member for Rye, as representing the Forestry Commissioners, whether, with regard to public footpaths across Cannock Chase and the danger arising from discarded matches and cigarette ends, he will consider the advisability of leaving a broader space on either side of these paths before planting trees?

The Forestry Commissioners consider that a sufficiently broad space is left unplanted and screefed on either side of the public footpaths across that part of Cannock Chase which is in their possession. In certain cases the unplanted space is as wide as 70 feet.

Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman send out some understanding persons, because I assure him that the trees are being planted within an inch or two of the narrow path, and, seeing that this work will go on for a long time, will not the Government take notice of this matter now rather than later?

Unemployment

Exchange Accommodation, Shepshed, Leicestershire

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that the Employment Exchange, situate in the Market Place, Leicestershire, comprises only one room about 20 feet square, and that there is no accommodation under cover for people waiting to attend; and, in view of the fact that the number of persons on that register is approximately 500, can he provide adequate accommodation at this Exchange with a waiting room under cover?

I agree that the accommodation at the Shepshed Branch Employment Office does not meet present requirements, and arrangements are in hand for the re-housing of the office.

Assistance Regulations

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that the administration of the Unemployment Assistance Act depends largely upon the nature of the regulations, he will, before any amendments to the regulations are submitted to this House for approval en bloc, consider the desirability of enabling Members to see the draft and of providing time for a preliminary Debate in which an opportunity for proposing Amendments might be afforded?

No, Sir. I am afraid this would not be possible. But I would point out that the Unemployment Assistance (Temporary Provisions) Bill now before the House provides in Clause 1 (5) that it shall continue in force until determined in accordance with an Order confirmed by a Resolution passed by each House of Parliament. It is the intention of the Government to make their further proposals known to Parliament before asking it to pass such a Resolution. The Debate on this Resolution will therefore give an opportunity for a preliminary discussion of the Government's proposals before any further action is, taken.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that that is the normal procedure and makes no difference whatever to our discussion of the regulations; is he aware also that I have suggested the only possible way out of the difficulty which has given rise to the present position, and that the only alternative to that suggestion is the alteration of the Act itself?

I have described the position as it is at present, and further representations will no doubt be developed in the discussion to-day. That is the position now, and, if the House will think it over, hon. Members will find that any substantial departure from that will not assist the House to produce a well-thought-out and balanced series of proposals.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to give this matter his further attention, because his answer does not touch the essence of the question which I have put, and does not represent the real position; and is he aware that every hon. Member in every section of the House is up against the same difficulty, and that it is possible to get out of the difficulty by accepting this suggestion, apart from altering the Act?

I shall continue to give it consideration; the matter is in a state of evolution at the moment, and any suggestion like this will be considered. At the same time, the House will have to have information from stage to stage as to how things are going on, and I hope that the procedure will enable that to be done.

In view of the mess that was made last time owing to the rigidity of the regulations, and in the situation which the Government find themselves, is it asking too much that the Prime Minister will assure the House that the same thing will not happen again, and that the House will have an opportunity of amending the regulations when they come forward?

Certainly, it is our intention that the same thing shall not happen again. I say that without accepting the reasons given by the hon. Member.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that many of us think that the Act is fundamentally wrong, and that it is necessary to have fresh legislation?

Questions

Maternity Welfare (Rhondda Area)

asked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of the present lack of accommodation in the Rhondda area for maternity cases and the large number requiring and awaiting treatment and care, he can hold out any hope of a money grant being made available from the depressed areas fund by way of enabling the responsible authority to made provision for adequate accommodation?

This is a matter which the Commissioner is prepared to consider, though I cannot, of course, undertake that a grant will be made.

Juvenile Courts (Women Justices)

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department in how many cases in connection with the juvenile courts established under the Children's Act women justices have been placed on the panel; in how many cases no women were appointed; and in how many areas there are no women magistrates?

832 juvenile court panels include, and 153 do not include, women justices. I am informed that during last year over 400 women justices have been added to the Commissions of the Peace, leaving only about 10 borough and 50 county divisions without women justices.

Borstal Institutions

asked the Home Secretary what is the current percentage figure of reforms of ex-Borstal boys; whether the approximate figure of 67 percentage of reforms still holds good; how many ex-Borstal male inmates, approximately, are there in custody in His Majesty's prisons and institutions at the present time or to the nearest convenient date, including licence-revoked cases in the various establishments; if a record is kept of ex-Borstal boys returned to custody on reconviction or licence revoked after two years; and, if so, are these numbers taken into consideration when the percentage figure of reforms is calculated?

The figure which I gave to my hon. Friend last year as the proportion of ex-Borstal inmates whose records are satisfactory is approximately 60 per cent. This figure still holds good. The period for which records are kept by the Borstal Association is in most cases about two years from the date of release; in some cases longer. Beyond that period it is not possible to keep complete records, but such information as is available indicates that as a general rule those who behave satisfactorily for two years continue to lead honest lives. On the other hand, of the 40 per cent. who are reconvicted or have their licences revoked for unsatisfactory conduct during this period, some subsequently make good, but others are reconvicted repeatedly. Accordingly, as the number of persons who have passed through the Borstal Institutions is now over 12,000, there is at any selected date a number of ex-Borstal inmates to be found in prison. A return prepared in February, 1934, showed the number at that date to be 614. A similar return for a date in February, 1935, will be available shortly.

Dog Racecourses (Totalisators)

asked the Home Secretary whether he can now state when the Dog Racecourse Totalisator Regulations will be published; and whether these regulations will become operative from the 1st July, 1935, in accordance with Section 33 (2) of the Betting and Lotteries Act, 1934?

As my hon. and gallant Friend is aware, I thought it desirable, before making regulations under the First Schedule to the Betting and Lotteries Act, 1934, to afford an opportunity to manufacturers of totalisators and to the dog racing interests of submitting observations on a draft code of regulations. Certain representations have been submitted to me and I am at present engaged in considering them. I hope in the near future to be in a position to make these regulations, and I propose that they shall come into force on the 1st July.

Transport

River Thames (Passenger Service)

asked the Minister of Transport the present position with regard to the plans for the establishment of water omnibuses on the River Thames?

The London Passenger Transport Board inform me that they do not themselves propose at present to establish passenger services on the River Thames. I am unable to state the intentions of other parties as to the provision of such a service.

Have any applications been received from other parties who wish to run a service?

I do not think that there are any other parties who require to make an application to me. I have seen certain other parties and have assisted them to the best of my ability.

Built-Up Areas (Speed Limit)

asked the Minister of Transport whether his Department are considering the use of an automatic timing apparatus to assist in the enforcement of the speed limit in built-up areas?

Although several types of automatic timing apparatus have from time to time been submitted to my Department, none of them is, in the opinion of my technical officers, sufficiently satisfactory to warrant my recommending their adoption by the Police authorities who, as my hon. Friend is aware, will be responsible for the enforcement of the speed limit in built-up areas. If, however, my hon. Friend has any particular apparatus in mind, I should be glad to consider it.

Questions

Indian Civil Service (British Candidates)

asked the Secretary of State for India whether he is aware that the number of British candidates appointed to the Indian Civil Service has fallen from 38 in 1928 to 14 in 1934; that of the candidates who qualified in the examination of September last only four of the first 18 accepted an appointment in India and what steps the Government proposes to take to put an end to this state of affairs?

I have been asked to reply. The exact figures are 36 in 1928 and 13 in 1934. Eight of the first 18 candidates in 1934 accepted the Indian Civil Service, of whom two were Europeans and six were Indians. The fall in numbers is due not so much to lack of suitable European candidates as to an increase in the number and quality of Indian candidates. Under the present Government of India Act candidates who take the London Examination must be appointed strictly according to their order on the examination list. If the recruitment provisions in the Government of India Bill are approved, this will no longer be necessary.

Rabies (Quarantine Regulations)

asked the Minister of Agriculture how many years have elapsed since the last case of canine rabies in dogs introduced into this country from Europe and from other parts of the world, respectively; and whether he will consider the possibility of a reduction in the present duration of quarantine, either for all dogs or graduated in accordance with the prevalence of rabies in the country of origin?

Five years have elapsed since the last case of rabies in dogs im- ported from Europe, and 4¾ years since the last case in dogs from other parts of the world. In reply to the last part of the question, I am not prepared to reduce the period of six month's quarantine, which experience has shown to be necessary. Since the year 1919, 12 dogs imported from abroad have developed rabies while in quarantine, four of which developed the disease between the fourth and sixth month of detention.

League of Nations (Dodecanese)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the League of Nations has received any notification from either Greece or Italy of an intention to bring the question of the recent disturbance in the Dodecanese before the League, under Article 11 of the Covenant?

Housing

Sub-Letting

asked the Minister of Health whether his attention has been called to the considerable number of large houses originally built for occupation by one family which are now being let in single rooms without adequate reconstruction; and what steps are proposed to prevent such houses becoming the slum problem of the future?

I would call my hon. Friend's attention to the provisions of Section 6 of the Housing Act, 1925, which empowers local authorities to make bylaws in relation to houses let in lodgings or occupied by members of more than one family. These powers are adequate to prevent the consequences feared by my hon. Friend.

Does my hon. Friend realise that the evil complained of in my question arises in single-room flatlets? Some of the large houses in my constituency are being let out in single-room flatlets, and I do not think the local authority has any power to make by-laws dealing with them?

Yes, there are one or two difficulties, but they are being removed by the Bill now before the House.

Land Registration

asked the Minister of Health whether he will take the necessary steps to secure that all properties dealt with under the new Housing Bill shall be placed on the Land Registry in order to simplify future investigations of title?

As at present advised, my right hon. Friend sees no reason for requiring compulsory registration by local authorities of land acquired by them under the powers proposed to be conferred by the Bill, which he understands is what my hon. Friend has in mind.

Slum Clearance

asked the Minister of Health the figures for the latest available month showing the progress of slum clearance, distinguishing the numbers of houses in resolutions of local authorities declaring clearance areas, clearance orders or compulsory purchase orders submitted, clearance orders or compulsory purchase orders confirmed, and approvals for re-housing respectively?

The net progress made during January in the slum clearance campaign was as follows: Clearance areas were declared comprising 4,995 houses; clearance or compulsory purchase orders were made covering 3,692 houses; clearance or compulsory purchase orders were confirmed covering 4,963 houses; re-housing was approved to the extent of 5,946 houses.

How far does this compare with the average rate necessary to complete the whole programme?

We require an average monthly output of about 3,500 houses under each of these four items. My hon. Friend will see that progress has been well maintained, and indeed, in regard to re-housing, the rate is to the extent of twice what is required.

Is it the intention of the Minister to postpone confirmation of compulsory purchase orders until the passage of the Bill which is now under consideration in Standing Committee?

Questions

National Health Insurance

asked the Minister of Health what instructions have been issued to panel doctors relative to the extravagant use of medicines prescribed for their panel patients; whether he can state the number of doctors that have been warned for not giving satisfactory explanations and the counties in which they reside; and what action he proposes to take in the matter if the warnings are ignored?

My right hon. Friend has no power to issue instructions, but from time to time insurance practitioners generally are reminded that they should avoid extravagance in prescribing. They are of course required by their terms of service to order any drugs reasonably necessary for the adequate treatment of their patients. During 1934 a special warning was issued in five cases. These cases arose in the administratve areas of London, Middlesex, Lancashire, Kent and Salford.

Aerial Warfare (Defence Measures)

asked the Prime Minister whether he has any statement to make with reference to the proposed formation of a women's legion new movement to assist in the organisation of help to the public in case of enemy gas attacks?

I have no official information in respect of the organisation mentioned by the hon. Member, though I understand that this organisation is officially recognised by the Red Cross and St. John's Ambulance Societies.

Is it not a fact that many women's organisations are anxious to find out exactly what the scheme is; and would the Prime Minister be good enough to make further inquiries in order to find out what is going on in various Departments of Government?

It is not a Department of Government at all, but a purely voluntary organisation. If women's organisations desire to find out the facts, I have given them the places where they can find them out.

Is not the organisation encouraged and supported in some way by the War Office?

If the hon. Member will put the question down, I will give him an answer, but my information at the present moment is that it is not.

Overseas Investments

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been drawn to the conference of Western Canadian mayors in relation to the proposed default upon the City of Vancouver's obligations, some of which were issued in London; and will he state what steps the Treasury will take about this proposed abuse of confidence of those United Kingdom investors who have entrusted their savings to Canadian municipal authorities, in view of the fact that Exchequer receipts from Income Tax and Death Duties revenue are also concerned?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the replies given by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs on the 6th February to the hon. Member for North Newcastle-on-Tyne (Sir N. Grattan-Doyle), to which I have: nothing further to add.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that the continual shaking of confidence of British investors by the repudiation of debt by foreign borrowers, now including the city of Vancouver, will bring to an end lending by British investors to overseas borrowers, with the further result that there can be no increase in employment in British export trades with reduction of United Kingdom taxation; and will he appoint a Treasury representative to consider for future guidance the general principles upon which overseas loans have been granted in the past?

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will inform the delegates from Chile and Brazil coming to London to discuss trade and exchange restrictions that the British export trade to Chile and Brazil has caused loss to Britain owing to the defaults by Chile and Brazil on their pre-War loans raised in Britain by means of which the British exports were to be paid for; and will he indicate to the delegates that their countries should look to New York and other lending centres, rather than to London, for loans when the British embargo on foreign loans has ceased to operate?

I would refer my hon. Friend and my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply given on the 4th February to my hon. Friend the Member for North Newcastle-on-Tyne (Sir N. Grattan-Doyle).

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree with the statement in question 47 that there can be no increase in the export trade except by means of foreign loans?

National Finance

Pensions (Wives)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can give an estimate of the cost to the Treasury of granting pensions to the wives of insured men reaching the age of 65, irrespective of the age of the wife?

My hon. Friend will realise that the working out of estimates such as that for which she asks involves considerable labour. It will perhaps be sufficient for her purpose if I inform her that the cost of a proposal similar to hers but with the limitations that the wife should not be more than 30 years younger than her husband and that husband and wife should have been married for at least five years has been worked out recently and is £6,000,000 in the first year, rising to £7,500,000 a year in 10 years' time. This estimate does not include the further cost which would appear to be inevitable in the case of insured women if the proposal were adopted, and which would probably more than double the expenditure.

Monetary Policy

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, as the perpetuation by the Government of an inconvertible paper-money policy, accentuating the present cheapness of money, has in large measure been responsible for the speculation and financial scandals which have recently taken place, the Government will take steps to expedite the return to a sounder monetary policy?

I do not accept the hon. Member's premises, and I would refer him to the answer which I gave on the 7th February to the hon. Member for the Gower Division (Mr. D. Grenfell).

Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that, if a stabilised currency were in being, and the Bank rate were operating, it would tend to guard against excessive speculation?

I understood the hon. Member's argument to be that cheap money led to speculation.

May I again ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he is not of opinion that accentuated cheap money tends to stimulate excessive speculation, and that, if the Bank rate were in operation, it would be a deterrent against such scandals as have recently occurred?

Spirit Duties

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that the contribution made by the Spirit Duties to the Revenue has fallen from 12.1 per cent. in 1913–14 to 4.6 per cent. in 1933–34; and whether, as the reasons for securing an increased revenue which induced him to lower the Beer Duty last year apply with greater force to securing increased revenue from the Spirit Duties, which has steadily declined since 1920 when the duty was raised from 50s. to 72s. 6d. per proof gallon, this matter will receive his careful consideration in connection with his forthcoming Budget?

I am aware that, when compared with the greatly increased total revenue of recent years, the proportionate, but not of course the actual, contribution of the Spirit Duties has fallen approximately as stated. As regards the second part of the question, my hon. Friend may be assured that all relevant considerations will be taken into account when existing duties are reviewed in connection with the Budget.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the revenue derived from these duties has fallen from about £70,000,000 in 1921 to some £30,000,000 last year; and will he assure the House that, in considering this matter, only revenue considerations will be taken into account? Can we have an assurance to that effect?

I think the figures given by my hon. Friend are approximately correct. With regard to the question of consideration, my consideration of this question is and will be financial.

Entertainments Duty

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether his attention has been called to the fact that no Entertainments Duty is payable by the hotels showing cinematograph films to residents and visitors, provided no direct charge for admission is made; whether this interpretation of the liability to Entertainments Duty is sanctioned by the officers of his Department; and whether he is satisfied that it is equitable?

Under the law, Entertainments Duty is only chargeable on payments for admission to an entertainment. Whether the duty is payable in any individual case of the kind mentioned depends upon the facts, and if my hon. Friend cares to let me have particulars in regard to any actual case which he has in mind I will have inquiry made.

Male Servant Licence Duty (Gardeners)

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury what amount was collected in 1934, or for the last year for which statistics are available, from 15s. licences for gardeners?

The total proceeds of the Male Servant Licence Duty for the financial year 1933–34 were £172,900. No statistics are available to show what proportion of this total was paid in respect of gardeners and other taxable servants respectively.

Questions

British North Atlantic Shipping Interests

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is now in a position to make a detailed statement with regard to the financial and commercial reasons which induced him informally to request responsible financial authorities to withhold their co-operation in measures devised to ensure the retention under the British flag of the Red Star Liners "Pennland"and" Westernland?"

I cannot usefully add to the full statements I have already made to the House, both in Debate and in reply to questions.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say how he considers it to be advantageous either to the country or to the Cunard and White Star Company that these vessels should be run under the German flag rather than under the British flag?

I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the statement which I made on the subject in the House a short time ago.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has at his disposal any information as to the probable intensity of competition in the North Atlantic trade between the Cunard White Star Company and the Red Star vessels "Pennland" and "Westernland" under the German flag, as compared with that likely to be caused by these ships sailing under British ownership and subject to identical regulations, taxation, and wage scales to the Cunard White Star Company's vessels?

I have no information which would enable me to offer an authoritative opinion on this subject, but I have seen a report that the vessels in question will be used for a different type of traffic and, so far as they carry passengers, will conform to conference rates.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the Government policy towards the proposals made by a British group for a suggested North Atlantic service at cheap rates with new ships to be built specially for the purpose in this country?

The proposals in question would not involve the question of the transfer of capital abroad; and, as the promoters have been informed, there would appear to be no present occasion for me to express any opinion upon the scheme.

Contributory Pensions Act

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer when the first decennial actuarial report on the working of the Contributory Pensions Act will be presented to Parliament?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health on the 7th February to a question by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Colonel Broadbent).

Government Contractors

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether Messrs. Thomas Bolton and Sons, Limited, of Froghall, Oakamoor, and Sutton Oak, are Government contractors?

Messrs. Thomas Bolton and Sons, Limited, are on the lists of firms eligible to tender for contracts for various Government Departments, and at present hold a number of contracts.

Russia

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been drawn to the reforms outlined for Russia by M. Molotov; and whether he has sent or will send any message to the Soviet Government expressing the good wishes of His Majesty's Government?

I presume that the right hon. Gentleman refers to the programme of electoral reform outlined by M. Molotov in his speech at the All-Union Congress of Soviets on the 6th February. My right hon. Friend has not yet received a report on these proposed reforms from His Majesty's Ambassador at Moscow. It is not, however, the practice of His Majesty's Government to send special messages to foreign Governments in respect of suggestions made for reforming their electoral laws.

When official information comes to our Foreign Office to the effect that the Soviet regime is travelling gradually towards a Parliamentary system like our own, will our Foreign Office break with precedents and send them a letter of congratulation?

While we may welcome the travelling to which the hon. Gentleman refers, it is no part of the business

of His Majesty's Government to make any official comment upon it.

Business of the House

Motion made, and Question put,

"That the Proceedings on Government Business be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[ The Prime Minister. ]

The House divided: Ayes, 275; Noes, 68.

Petherick, M.

Rutherford, Sir John Hugo (Liverp'l)

Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)

Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

Salmon, Sir Isldore

Thompson, Sir Luke

Peto, Geoffrey K. (W'verh'pt'n, Bilston)

Salt, Edward W.

Thorp, Linton Theodore

Pike, Cecil F.

Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham)

Todd, A. L. S. (Kingswinford)

Potter, John

Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart

Touche, Gordon Cosmo

Powell, Lieut.-Col. Evelyn G. H.

Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard

Train, John

Pybus, Sir John

Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.

Tree, Ronald

Radford, E. A.

Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Raikes, Henry V. A. M.

Shepperson, Sir Ernest W.

Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.

Ramsay, Capt. A. H. M. (Midlothian)

Skelton, Archibald Noel

Wallace, Sir John (Dunfermline)

Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)

Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)

Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

Ramsbotham, Herwald

Smith, Sir Robert (Ab'd'n & K'dine, C.)

Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)

Ramsden, Sir Eugene

Somervell, Sir Donald

Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.

Rathbone, Eleanor

Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor)

Watt, Captain George Steven H.

Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter)

Soper, Richard

Wedderburn, Henry James Scrymgeour-

Reid, Capt. A. Cunningham-

Spender-Clay, Rt. Hon. Herbert H.

Whiteside, Borras Noel H.

Reid, David D. (County Down)

Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westmorland)

Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

Reid, William Allan (Derby)

Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur

Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)

Remer, John R.

Stevenson, James

Willoughby do Eresby, Lord

Rickards, George William

Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir Arnold (Hertf'd)

Roberts, Aled (Wrexham)

Stones, James

Wilson, Clyde T. (West Toxteth)

Ropner, Colonel L.

Stourton, Hon. John J.

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Rosbotham, Sir Thomas

Strickland, Captain W. F.

Womersley, Sir Walter

Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir Murray F.

Worthington, Dr. John V.

Russell, Albert (Kirkcaldy)

Sutcliffe, Harold

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Tate, Mavis Constance

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. ——

Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury)

Taylor, Vice-Admiral E.A. (P'dd'gl'n, S.)

Sir Frederick Thomson and Sir George Penny.

Rutherford, John (Edmonton)

Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)

NOES.

Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

Griffiths, George A. (Yorks, W. Riding)

Mason, David M. (Edinburgh, E.)

Attlee, Clement Richard

Grundy, Thomas W.

Maxton, James

Banfield, John William

Hamilton, Sir R.W. (Orkney & Zetl'nd)

Milner, Major James

Batey, Joseph

Harris, Sir Percy

Owen, Major Goronwy

Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale)

Hicks, Ernest George

Parkinson, John Allen

Buchanan, George

Holdsworth, Herbert

Rea, Walter Russell

Cleary, J. J.

Janner, Barnett

Roberts, Aled (Wrexham)

Cove, William G.

Jenkins, Sir William

Rothschild, James A. de

Cripps, Sir Stafford

John, William

Salter, Dr. Alfred

Curry, A. C.

Johnstone, Harcourt (S. Shields)

Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen)

Daggar, George

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Sinclair, Maj. Rt. Hn. Sir A. (C'thness)

Davies, David L. (Pontypridd)

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Smith, Tom (Normanton)

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Kirkwood, David

Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, North)

Davies, Stephen Owen

Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

Thorne, William James

Dobbie, William

Lawson, John James

Tinker, John Joseph

Edwards, Charles

Leonard, William

Williams, David (Swansea, East)

Evans, R. T. (Carmarthen)

Llewellyn-Jones, Frederick

Williams, Edward John (Ogmore)

Foot, Isaac (Cornwall, Bodmin)

Lockwood, Capt. J. H. (Shipley)

Williams, Dr. John H. (Llanelly)

Gardner, Benjamin Walter

Logan, David Gilbert

Wilmot, John

George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

Lunn, William

Wood, Sir Murdoch McKenzie (Banff)

George, Megan A. Lloyd (Anglesea)

McGovern, John

Young, Ernest J. (Middlesbrough, E.)

Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

Mainwaring, William Henry

Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Arthur

Mallalieu, Edward Lancelot

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. ——

Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan)

Mander, Geoffrey le M.

Mr. Paling and Mr. Groves.

Public Health (Coal Mine Refuse)

3.48 p.m.

I beg to move, tip burning for some time. The urban district council drew the attention of the Minister of Health to it. He said he was unable to do anything, so the matter was placed in my hands. I put a question and the Minister said he would look into it, and send an inspector to see what could be done. In October I went there myself to get first-hand information, I found there was a hugh mound all ablaze, so far as I could judge about 100 square yards in extent and 25 to 30 feet in depth. The colliery company was trying to put it out. They dug a trench 25 feet deep, putting water on sand. But there was no appreciable effect. I have here, for the benefit of the House, a few photographs which were taken in August last showing exactly what is happening at this tip, and I would like hon. Members to look at them. I have had letters sent to me from the trade union secretary complaining that men working in the mill were feeling the effects of the fumes from this tip. I have received letters from inhabitants, and also a letter from a schoolmistress, which latter I will read to the House, showing what she thinks about the matter. It was written in September and says: contains sulphur. When the atmosphere acts upon hundreds of tons of this material you get spontaneous combustion, and you can imagine what takes place in the locality.

When dealing with the housing question the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health argued that workmen like to live near their work, and I agree. When I worked in the mine I liked to live near my work because it meant getting to my work quickly and, when I had finished, getting home in time for tea. Can we expect there to be any desire to live in a neighbourhood of a burning tip? The Tyldesley Council are trying to get more houses. They are not well provided with sites. One of the appropriate sites is near to this burning tip, but they have had to reject it because of the burning tip and search for another site. I believe that I have given sufficient evidence to show to the House that something ought to be done to amend the Act which allows this kind of thing to go on. The Act of 1875 does not give all the power that I would like to see given to deal with this matter. It says, in the part dealing with nuisances:

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Tinker, Mr. Gordon Macdonald, Mr. Batey, Mr. Parkinson, Mr. Rhys Davies, Mr. T. Smith, and Mr. Logan.

Public Health (Coal Mine Refuse) Bill,

"to amend the Public Health Act, 1875, with respect to coal mine refuse liable to spontaneous combustion," presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Tuesday, 26th February, and to be printed. [Bill 29.]

Message from the Lords

That they have agreed to,—

Electricity (Supply) Bill, without Amendment.

Consolidation Bills

Report from the Joint Committee, in respect of the Unemployment Insurance Bill [ Lords ] (pending in the Lords), with Minutes of Evidence, and Special Report brought up, and read.

Report and Special Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

Orders of the Day

Unemployment Assistance (Temporary Provisions) Bill

Order for Second Reading read.

3.58 p.m.

I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."

On a point of Order. May I ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether the Financial Memorandum is part of the Bill, because there are words in it which do not make any sense? The word "be" is repeated in line 7, the words being,

"shall for the period of the operation of the Bill be not be less than the payments."

I should like to ask your Ruling whether the Financial Memorandum is part of the Bill because obviously there is a misprint?

I have noticed the misprint myself. No, the Financial Memorandum is not part of the Bill.

The Bill now before the House is intended to carry out the decision of the Unemployment Assistance Board which was announced to the House by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour last week, and its objects are, first of all, to restore any cuts that may have been made, to continue to pay to any applicant sums larger than his original transitional payments in some cases, to provide for cases where there was originally a "nil" determination by the board, and to make provision for the case of persons who come to the board for the first time. Clause 1, Subsection (1) provides that the cuts, where there were any, shall be restored by means of supplementary allowances. The procedure will be that the determination given by the board's officers in accordance with the regulations will be calculated and also the amount which they received or would receive under the old system. If the determination made by the board is at the man's old rate, or less than his old rate would have been, he will be paid by the Exchange the amount of the board's determination plus the necessary supplementary allowance. In cases where the board's determination is greater than the old determination, he will be paid the higher figure, and in cases where the board's determination was nil, he will be paid a sum equivalent to what he would have got under the old determination, and if he comes for the first time to the board, then he will be paid whichever of the two calculations is more favourable to him.

Sub-section (1) of Clause 1 provides the machinery for making that calculation. Sub-section (2) defines the person to whom the provisions are applicable—shortly put, it comprises all persons who have been or would have been entitled to transitional payments on or since 7th January. Sub-section (3) provides that the supplementary allowances shall be calculated on the basis of the old public assistance rate. When I was explaining the intentions of the board, I stated, I think, that it was the intention of the board in the case of new applicants that the board's regulations should be followed but interpreted not too rigidly; it has now been decided, however, that in all cases the governing factor shall be the practice which would have been applied by the public assistance committee of the area. The House will realise that that does introduce a certain amount of administrative difficulty, because the officers of the board will have to interpret, as best they can, what the public assistance committee would have given the man if the circumstances had been the same. We have every hope that they will, wherever necessary, receive the assistance of the existing assistance officials in deciding what the figure would have been, but the Bill provides that if there is any doubt or dispute, the appeal tribunal set up under the Act shall be the final court of appeal.

There is also the point which I should mention, and which my right hon. Friend and I mentioned last week, that where the transitional payment figure is the higher of the two, it will be paid only in cases where the circumstances as now known were the same as the circumstances when the determination was made. Obviously, if the circumstances have changed, the new circumstances of the family will have to be taken into account in making the new computation. Sub-sections (4) and (5) give an indemnity for any payments made last week and this week before the Bill becomes law, and give sanction to, and makes legal, any payments which may be made in future under this new temporary arrangement.

Payments by the Exchanges. I was asked a moment ago by an hon. Member if I would state what was the position of those local authorities who did make advances last week to certain applicants. The position there is that those advances were made by the local authorities to the men concerned. In actual practice, in order to facilitate accountancy, the Exchanges will deduct this week from the arrears to be paid to the men the amount that was advanced this week by the local authorities, and, in order to save handing over a large number of small sums, they will make bulk payment to the local authorities. It must be quite clearly understood that the local authorities advanced the money to the individuals concerned, and technically they should stand by at the Exchanges and receive from each man the money advanced; but, in order to avoid the inconvenience of that, we shall make arrangements to make a deduction from the men and pay the lump sum over to the local authority. That is why no mention of it occurs in the Bill. These two sub-sections do, in effect, give an indemnity for the payments which were made last week and are being made this week.

Then there is a proviso to Sub-section (5) of considerable importance to which I would call the attention of the House. The proviso states that these temporary arrangements are to continue until an Order ending them is made by the Minister of Labour, but it states that no such Order shall have effect until it has been confirmed by a Resolution of both Houses; in other words, we have inserted in the Bill a provision which will give the House an ample opportunity of discussing and deciding on whatever new arrangements may be necessary to alter the existing regulations, and the House will have an opportunity, as a result of this proviso, of discussing and deciding on them before the temporary provisions of this Bill have come to an end.

Sub-section (6) makes the necessary financial provision. The House will, no doubt, wish to know what the cost of this Bill is to be. We have had an unfortunate experience in prophesying what the cost of these Measures would be, and I do not propose to repeat that to-day. All I will say is that it is quite clear the Bill will cost more money, because every applicant will get at least what he was getting before 7th January, and in a certain number of cases—the exact number I can not possibly tell until we have more information; but in some areas in a considerable number of cases no doubt—men will be getting more than they were getting on 7th January. Therefore, the net cost will be greater than it was on 7th January, but how much greater I think it will be quite impossible to prophesy at all correctly to-day, and the best guess we can make—I do not say necessarily it is a good guess—is that contained in the Financial Memorandum on the front page of the Bill.

I will pass to Clause 2, which cancels the second appointed day, which was to have been 1st March. I do not think that the House will expect me to spend any time in explaining why it was necessary to cancel the second appointed day. It is more than doubtful whether the officials of the board will have completed by 28th February their review of the cases which have come before them originally since 7th January, and it would have been quite impossible to undertake the additional work of taking over the people whom it was originally intended to take over from the public assistance authorities on 1st March. Clearly, if the local authorities are to be left with the care of all those people—in some cases a considerable body of people—they cannot be left to pay the contributions which they were originally intended to make on 1st March towards the cost of the new scheme. They will also, obviously, have to have some contribution from central funds. What exactly that will be I cannot at this moment say, but my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer and my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health will take an early opportunity of discussing the matter with the local authorities. New legislation, of course, will be needed both to cancel their contributions and to decide on the amount of the monetary contribution which will be required to enable them to carry the burden.

There are only two other points on which I would like to dwell. I wish to make quite clear to hon. Members, in case they are questioned about it in their constituencies, that the amount of the allowances under the old transitional payments are calculated on a different basis from allowances determined by the regulations, in two points in particular. In the first place, under the old transitional payment regulations it was possible and common for a man to draw an allowance of 9s. for a separated wife, and 2s. for each of his and her children living apart from him on condition that he actually paid the money over. That was not so under the regulations, but men will be entitled as a result of this Bill to have those allowances included in their transitional payments assessment.

The other point is the question of earnings. Under the transitional payment regulations it was customary, where a man earned anything during the week, to deduct from his transitional payment one-sixth of the weekly amount for each day that he was employed, irrespective of the amount that he earned, the only exception being that he was allowed to earn a sum not exceeding 3s. 4d., provided his employment could be performed outside the hours of his normal work. Under the regulations, the House will remember, 5s. or half his earnings, whichever was the less, was to be disregarded and the remainder taken into account. Clearly, in a large number of cases a rather complicated arithmetical sum will have to be done by the Exchanges, but in general the man will in all cases be given the benefit of the doubt, and the calculation which is most favourable to him will be adopted. I only mention this because the House will realise that these calculations are administratively rather cumbersome, and will throw a very great deal of work, indeed, on our clerks in the Exchanges, but every attempt will be made by the managers of the Exchanges to see that correct payments are made. If in one or two instances where earnings turn out to be rather complicated, and a man thinks he does not get his right amount this week or next week, I hope that hon. Members will advise him to go back to the Exchange, because in every case the necessary, payment will be made up to him, even although it may not have been possible to make the applicant a correct payment in the first instance. I have given the House as briefly as I can an explanation of the Clauses of the Bill. They are technical, and the method we have had to adopt is not the simplest, but my right hon. Friend, who will wind up the Debate, will answer any questions which hon. Members may put.

4.15 p.m.

The Government and all their supporters know that they present to-day a very sorry spectacle in the country. In my own Parliamentary history, which is not as long as that of many hon. Members, I know of no occasion where the Government have been so humiliated as this Government have been over their own actions and the administration which they caused to be set up. [HON. MEMBERS: "1929!"] Nothing that happened in 1929 was so humiliating as that which has happened in the last 10 days. I am bound to remind hon. Members of the extravagant claims which were made for the Bill during its passage through the House of Commons. We were told that it was one of the greatest pieces of social legislation in modern times. When the regulations came before the House—regulations which have created a constitutional revolution in this country, for never before have we had regulations which were more important than the Act itself—this spirit of self-confidence rapidly evaporated on the Government back benches. They were greatly perturbed. Even in the most friendly quarters the regulations were looked upon with a certain amount of suspicion, and fears grew in the minds of hon. Members in all parts of the House.

When the regulations were translated into administration and were let loose on the country a storm of protest broke out which is almost unparalleled in modern, times. Very rarely has the whole country been so stirred by the effect of either legislation or regulations as it was when these regulations were brought into operation. That storm of indignation was not confined to the recipients of unemployment assistance benefit. That feeling of indignation was felt by loyal supporters of the Government, by the clergy of all denominations and by councils all over the country, not of my political complexion. Almost overnight a storm of indignation arose unparalleled in our modern history. Even newspapers very friendly to the Government took up the matter. "The Times," less than a week ago, expressed this view:

I am not making any charge against the Unemployment Assistance Board. My charge is against the Government. The board had to cut its coat according to its cloth, but it was the right hon. Gentleman who determined the amount of cloth. If the Unemployment Assistance Board could not produce a larger coat it was because there was not sufficient cloth provided by the Government wherewith to make a larger coat, and the fault rests upon the Government and not upon the Unemployment Assistance Board. No aspersions will be cast by my hon. Friends on this side against the board. We prefer to save our powder for the Government which is primarily responsible. The Government have misled the House of Commons as to the financial aspect of the regulations. We were led to believe that the unemployed as a whole were to be a good deal better off than they had been. The Minister of Labour, in his speech when the regulations were before the House, said: than it is to us on these benches. Our charge is that the House has not been treated openly and that on the matter of finance it has been misled. Then we got not quite a complete but a sudden capitulation. It is not clear either from questions put by my hon. Friend the Member for Chester-le-Street (Mr. Lawson) or from the speech of the Parliamentary Secretary how long this standstill arrangement is going to last. Looking at the drafting of the Bill and at the provision to which the Parliamentary Secretary drew the attention of the House, to the effect that no such order shall have effect unless it has been confirmed by both Houses of Parliament, it looks as if this standstill arrangement is going to continue for the duration of this Parliament. That will get the Government out of a little difficulty; but I am not sure of that. We have had no indication. We have been told how far the Unemployment Assistance Board have proceeded with the revision of the regulations, but we are completely in the dark whether we shall have to wait three months, six months or longer.

The capitulation itself has a number of ragged edges, even to put the best interpretation upon it. We still do not know what is to happen in the future. We have had no indication at all whether it is the policy of the Government, broadly speaking, to stand by the new arrangement temporarily made. This House is entitled to know that on an occasion of this kind. The Parliamentary Secretary tried to clear the position in regard to local authorities. It appears now that the money which local authorities disbursed illegally last week is to be reimbursed in two stages. So far so good. But I cannot understand why the Government did not put into this Bill a clear statement as to when the new appointed day is to take effect. The Government have treated local authorities in this matter very badly. They were led to believe that the appointed day, when they would be relieved of 60 per cent. of the cost of able-bodied unemployed, would be the 1st of October last year.

This is very important. Will the right hon. Gentleman point to any time or period when the Government gave any indication of the kind?

The question was considered by the Government and the County Councils Association, and 1st October was mentioned.

I am not dealing with statements necessarily made in this House, although I think the date of 1st October was indicated in the House. It was indicated by the Government to the representatives of local authorities and generally agreed. The County Councils Association had no doubt that it was the 1st October, and then by some slippery business the date is to be the 1st March this year, so that local authorities are having to bear for an additional five months a burden of which they expected to be relieved. In the case of a large area like the West Riding it means £1,600 or £1,700 a week, a very substantial amount. Local authorities naturally want something firm and binding. The County Councils Association is not noted for its Socialistic views; I imagine that its representatives give the Government their political support. They are anxious to know definitely when the Government are going to undertake responsibilities which by Statute they have undertaken. I see no reason why the date, 1st March, should not have stood, or why, if the Government thinks it is practicable, it should not have been the 1st April—a very suitable date—or the 1st May, or the 1st June. The truth is that the Government have got into such a muddle over the business and have had to bring forward the Bill at such short notice that they have not had time to smooth the feathers of outraged local authorities and are hoping in the few months to come to be able to calm their ruffled feelings. That is not fair to local authorities or to the House.

I find it difficult to follow part of the explanation given by the Parliamentary Secretary. As he says, the provisions are very complicated, and they must be more complicated to the unemployed man than to hon. Members. Let me put one or two specific questions to which we desire a specific answer, "yes" or "no." Will public assistance authorities who in the past have added to the amount paid in transitional payments now be able to revert to that practice? This is very important. Under the Act they are for- bidden. However irksome it may be to them to feel that the people in their areas are suffering unnecessarily, they cannot, except in the case of medical relief or urgent necessity, come to their assistance. If the Government mean this standstill arrangement to be effective, they should take steps to see that public assistance authorities can supplement the scales of transitional payment where it has been admitted they are too low to satisfy the humble needs of a semidestitute family.

Let me put a further question about new cases. I am not sure about the provision, hedged round as it was this afternoon by the Parliamentary Secretary, and hedged round as it was in his speech on the 5th February. What, in principle, is the difference between people who have received transitional payment and people who, if the old Act were still alive, would be going to get it next week? Their circumstances are entirely the same. It does not much matter, from the point of view of the home, whether a man is receiving transitional payment or not, supplemented by Poor Law relief, be wants to know whether the money is there to pay the rent and food bills. There is no administrative reason why new cases should not be treated on exactly the same footing as old cases. The old cases have behind them an actual record, and similar new cases can be treated in precisely the same way as old cases.

There must be some misunderstanding on this point. That is exactly what my hon. Friend said when he announced the provisions of the Bill.

My recollection on this point is that the Parliamentary Secretary said the board intended to do it as far as they could, but that circumstances were difficult. On 5th February, dealing with people who have exhausted their benefit and come to the Unemployment Assistance Board for the first time, he said:

"The answer is their determination will be reckoned in accordance with the regulations."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 5th February, 1935; col. 1055, Vol. 297.]

Is that the position?

No, Sir. I think I went out of my way to say in my speech of last week that the board's determination would be made in accordance with the regulations. That has been changed in the Bill, and the new determinations will be made by the board in accordance with the amount applicants would have been granted under the regulations and also the amounts which they would have received from the public assistance committees; and I went on to say that whichever was the most favourable to the applicant would be paid.

I am not sure that we are yet out of the wood on this matter. If the Government have made a little move since the Parliamentary Secretary made his last speech, it is all to the good. I still see no reason why the same principle should not apply as is being applied to people who have already received transitional payment. It is clear to a large number of people that the series of incidents is unfortunate. We go further and say that it was criminal. A large number of people have had a substantial reduction made in payments, which when they were being made were not unduly extravagant. It is little comfort to them to know that some people are going to be a little better off. The fact is that large numbers of unemployed, and those who live among the unemployed, feel that they have been let down. I have a very bad literary memory, but there comes to my mind a passage from Mark Anthony's speech after the murder of Caesar: muddle with which this problem has been handled, we had it last Friday when the Prime Minister came down to the House and answered a question put to him by my hon. Friend. I am glad to see the Prime Minister present. We appreciate his presence. Too often, like Louis XVI, who hid behind the skirts of Marie Antoinette, the Prime Minister hides behind the skirts of his followers and does not grace us with his presence as often as we should like.

He made a statement last Friday after two representatives of a large city council in the North of England had been to London. Nobody knows what happened, but two councillors from Sheffield made an onslaught on somebody, whose name has not yet been disclosed, and wrung from this unknown warrior, no doubt without the knowledge of his superiors in this matter, a promise that they should be allowed, willy-nilly, to make illegal payments on the following morning and the day after. They went home and proceeded to do it. The decision of last week, enabling local authorities to jump into the breach, was not a mature and considered conclusion by the Government. It was something which was done when the Government was not looking. It was done, I imagine, by some officer, either of a Government Department or of the Unemployment Assistance Board who probably did not know the revolution that he was causing. While Sheffield is given a free hand, the Cumberland County Council—possibly by the same officer for all I know—is told that if it dares to do the same thing it must be prepared to take the consequences. What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander and the Prime Minister on Friday morning tried to make clear that this thing would be generally applied.

Here we are dealing with a fundamental problem of to-day. It was the Lord President of the Council who said a few years ago that if a Government could not deal with unemployment and the unemployed, it ought to go. Here is a problem which ought to be exercising the minds of the Government. I do not wish to embarrass the Prime Minister by reading all his answers but it is perfectly clear that he did not know the first thing about it. He not only apologised, by saying that the question had only reached him very late on the previous night—which is easily understood because it was late in the evening when this new secret pact between Sheffield and somebody else was concluded. The right hon. Gentleman said:

This afternoon we have been treated to another illustration of the present Government's methods. I made a mild protest when the regulations were before the House against the Minister announcing certain new sub-regulations and sub-sub-regulations within the general regulations. The Parliamentary Secretary has done the same thing this afternoon. It is very difficult to follow these sub-sub-regulations, when they are merely announced in that way and when there is no written word before Members of the House. It only confirms our view as to the slipshod way in which this very fundamental question has been treated.

We on these benches want to make our position with regard to this Bill perfectly clear. We are not satisfied that it will meet what is in the minds of the people as a result of statements made in this House on behalf of the Government, and even if it does the situation is so acute now that the matter cannot remain where it is. It is clear to all reasonable people now that the mere withdrawal of the regulations will be insufficient. We need an amendment of the law. No new regulations, however generous they may be in other respects, can do anything to get rid of the household means test. That requires an alteration of the law. We ought to know whether the Government contemplate an early alteration of the law. The Prime Minister's views on the means test are well known.

I want to quote from a speech made by the right hon. Gentleman only a little over a year ago in his own constituency, in which he said

"Any means test which tends to the destruction of families is bad in its application."

I would ask hon. Members not to be irrelevant, and perhaps I had better explain to them that the means test is as old as the 43rd Elizabeth, 1601.

Let me continue with this extract from the right hon. Gentleman's speech. He went on to say: pathetic consideration of the needs of working-class families. And then, of course, they must introduce new regulations. What are those new regulations going to be? Are they going to be as good as the standstill arrangement? They are not If they are not, then I warn the Government that the storm will break out again. The people who are going to be deprived for a second time of what they have hitherto been enjoying as unemployed workers will create a storm which may be even more intense than that already experienced.

It would be wise for the Government boldly to face the problem now. They have given up all hope of altering the economic situation by direct conscious action. They have been driven back to maintaining the unemployed and just barely maintaining them, and they might as well at least make a good job of this part of their business. I am certain that the country will not tolerate anything short of a very drastic change in the present treatment of the workers. The flame which was aroused in the country recently—and those of us who have been through the country know how intense it is—will not die down merely because of a temporary and Uncertain standstill arrangement. If new regulations are introduced which worsen the condition of the unemployed, that flame will break out again with increased intensity. We want the law altered. We want the regulations altered. I have not time now to go into the details of how they ought to be altered.

Well we must have some kind of regulations. Abolish these regulations by all means, but whatever regulations there may be—and this is my point—will have to be a little more generous in their treatment of the unemployed than the regulations which have now passed into the realm of limbo. We are not satisfied with this Bill. We accept this Bill because at least it does a little measure of very tardy justice to the unemployed, but we shall not cease to press for a radical alteration of Part II of the Act of 1934 and a substantial change in the regulations under that Act, with a view to securing, after this long period of trade depression, to the people most affected, the kind of humane treat- ment which an unemployed man ought to have and which Members of this House would wish to have for themselves.

4.56 p.m.

We have just heard a very severe chastisement of the Government from the right hon. Gentleman, and I am not surprised at the wording of his speech. But as far as I am concerned I do not want to be hard on the Government. I do not like to hit a man when he is down. The Government have admitted the failure of what they claimed to be the great constructive Measure of this Parliament. We spent many Parliamentary days on its consideration in this House and now this Government, with the largest majority of modern time, has to admit that the machinery of its Act has broken down and is a failure. I am particularly sorry that the right hon. Gentleman who is in charge of this Bill was not in the Government at the time when the Unemployment Act went through the House. At least he was not in the Cabinet and he has now to bear the whole burden of the defence of that Measure. I realise that the right hon. Gentleman has done the big thing. He has come down to the House and has admitted that the machinery does not work and is causing hardship and without any delay he has brought in this Bill.

I agree with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) that the Bill while commendably short is very complicated. Even the skill of the Parliamentary Secretary in presenting it could not make its wording very clear to us. But I think I am right in saying that we are now going back to the ordinary procedure or rather the ordinary scale of transitional payments which was in operation before the Unemployment Act came into force. The trouble is that the Government hailed the Unemployment Act as a great constructive Measure. I remember that when the Parliamentary Secretary wound up the Debate on the Third Reading he described the Bill as the charter of the unemployed; and, if I remember rightly, the Prime Minister in his broadcast speech wished to convey to the persons concerned that the Bill was a contribution to the solution of their grievances and to the whole problem of unemployment.

On the Third Reading the Liberals were severely attacked by the Minister in charge because of their lack of enthusiasm for the Bill. The right hon. Gentleman said that he failed to understand our opposition. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman now understands it. The reason why the Bill appealed to many Members on the other side was that for all time it was to put unemployment outside politics, that the board was to be independent of Parliament and was to operate without political pressure. That is what we most severely criticised at the time. At every stage on the Second and Third Reading we objected to the Bill because it put this most intimate and personal problem of relief outside any form of public control. It lifted it from the local authorities and handed it over to this independent board, and we were even to be denied the right to ask questions of the Minister about it at Question Time. The regulations, we were told, were to be framed independently of Ministers and Government Departments. They were to be brought down en bloc and were not to be subject to change or modification, but only to approval or negation.

I agree with the right hon. Member for Wakefield that what has happened in the meantime is shrouded in mystery. To begin with, we were led to understand that the regulations were altered because of pressure. We are not quite clear whence the pressure came, whether from the Treasury or from the Minister; whether they were too severe in their original form as they emanated from the board and were altered by the Minister, or whether they were too generous and were modified by the Treasury because they imposed too big a burden on the State. I do not condemn the board. On the whole I think that if five men had to-be found to run a machine of this kind the five men chosen were probably as competent as any that were to be found. But we maintained as Liberals that, even if the Government found five super-men, machinery of this kind could not possibly function effectively. The original proposal to set up a centralised system was a fatal blunder. It was intended to nationalise such an intimate and personal thing as Poor Law relief. All with personal experience and knowledge of the administration knew that the scheme would not work. Once you introduce any form of need test and stereotype it for the whole country, you inevitably cause hardship, and inevitably the scheme will break down. Conditions vary from county to county, from town to town, and from family to family. I am told that in some rural districts like those in Cornwall the scale has proved on the whole an advantage to the persons concerned, that where the rural standards were operating on the whole there has been an advantage to the persons concerned.

Does the hon. Member bear in mind the very low rents paid in some districts in Cornwall?

I understood that some rural areas got some advantage out of the new scales. But if we consider the immense variety of conditions, variations in rents and in conditions of living and cost of transport, as affecting a population of 40,000,000 people, any attempt to run such a scheme through a central board sitting at Thames House, must inevitably break down. I do not blame the five selected members of the board. They were given an impossible task, or, if you like, they gave themselves an impossible task. We pointed out at the time that sooner or later it would be necessary to reconsider the whole problem. Nor is it right to blame the officials. I have inquired and am informed that the officials at the Employment Exchanges discharge their difficult task with sympathy, tact and skill, but that they were bound by regulations that were inelastic and inadaptable, and that though in many cases they had to admit that hardship was inevitable they could not modify the regulations. Quite rightly, officials have complained of the suggestion—I do not think it was made by any responsible person—that they were in any way to blame for the breakdown of the machinery.

They have an impossible task. In London or Manchester or Liverpool the variations are so great that it is impossible to work stereotyped regulations. That is what we on the Liberal benches have persistently pointed out. On the Third Reading of the Unemploy- ment Act I pointed out that it would mean:

As far as I can see there were two reasons why this administration was taken away from the local authorities and trans- ferred to a central board. The first reason was a good one, and it has been referred to. It was to ease the burden on distressed areas which had a low assessable value, with the result that a given rate brought in a very small sum of money, though such areas had the largest burden of unemployment. That was the first reason, and that was why many local authorities did not oppose the proposal. It is as well to be frank about it. They did not oppose the transfer of responsibility from their shoulders to that of the board. They found that their burden was heavy and crushing, and they were only too glad to be relieved of it. But now, as far as we can understand, the burden is not to be eased.

I took part in the negotiations with the Chancellor of the Exchequer regarding the financial conditions under which the able-bodied unemployed were to be transferred from the local authorities to the Government. It was understood that these financial conditions were to come into operation last autumn. Certainly now they are to be postponed to some indefinite date. I think it is reasonable to assume that on 1st March the able-bodied poor will continue on the same scale as before. But there was another reason, and I believe it was the real reason why the Unemployment Act was pushed through. It was because certain authorities did not administer transitional payment on the basis and on the rules laid down by the Government Department. It is not my business to defend those particular authorities. There are some hon. Members who will no doubt defend their action. But surely it was a fatal blunder to visit on local authorities throughout the country the sins of a few isolated local authorities who were not carrying out the law. The bulk of the local authorities, the great cities like London and Liverpool and Manchester, on the whole did their best fairly and squarely to carry out the Act of Parliament.

I suggest to the Minister that when he brings in his new Bill, as he must bring it in, because the present position is an impossible one and cannot go on indefinitely, he should recognise that the only sound basis for carrying out a service so personal and so intimate and so closely connected with the lives of the people as is this service, is through the machinery of local government. We have had a similar problem in education. We have had some areas failing to carry out the Education Act on the strict terms of the Act of Parliament, we have had some local authorities feeling the heavy burden of high rates, but we have not attempted to centralise education, we have not transferred from local government, from the education committees to a central board, the whole system of education. It has been our just pride that on the whole we have had good government in this country because we have avoided centralisation and bureaucracy and trusted in the co-operation of elected people responsible to the public of their localities, who have done their best to give good public service; and now you are sweeping away the whole of that carefully built-up system that has been our pride and our satisfaction.

In these debates various Ministers in charge have prophesied a new era and the end of the old Poor Law. We have seen the end of the so-called old Poor Law as administered by local authorities, by guardians and by county councillors, but the spirit of the old Poor Law has been perpetuated in a worse form, because it has been centralised and handed over to a bureaucratic machine. There has been no public control, no opportunity to ventilate grievances. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will accept the principle of local association, at any rate, in the administration of any kind of public relief that may be necessary. The right hon. Gentleman who spoke last reminded us that the doctrine of family responsibility was as old as the hills. The spirit of it is a recognition of the family as an economic unit. That has long since disappeared. No longer is the family an economic unit, and the attempt to base your system of public assistance on the family unit will inevitably break down. An hon. Member reminds me that this legislation recognises the household unit. Families do live, undoubtedly, under one roof, due to the housing shortage, and it causes great bitterness and bad blood if, because of the accident of circumstances and of a shortage of houses, you lump the income of a whole household together and treat it as one. It has been found in practice difficult to administer and impossible to discriminate, and anybody with any knowledge of what has happened in the last two or three weeks knows what has been the fundamental cause of the breakdown of the new scales. It is the lumping together of the incomes of brothers, sisters, fathers, mothers, almost of uncles and aunts, visiting the income of first, second, third and fourth generations on the unfortunate man who has to ask for public assistance because he is out of work.

I hope the fate of the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Labour will not be that of his predecessors. Few of the previous Ministers of Labour have come out of that office without tarnished reputations. Sir Montague Barlow, the right hon. Member for Tamworth (Sir A. Steel-Maitland), Mr. Shaw, Miss Bond-field, one after another came in with great hopes and expectations and with big reputations, and they went out of that office, unfortunately, with diminished reputations, only too often to be rejected at the polls. But they have in each case been given an impossible task. It is impossible to build up machinery to deal with an army of 2,000,000 unemployed and to do real justice. It is unhealthy, bad for the State; it is weakening the morale of the people concerned; it is too severe a test to put on any industrial organisation. It may be an opportunity for Labour to attack the whole system of capitalism, but if the Minister is to justify his office, he must take a wider outlook of his responsibility and realise that no relief system, no insurance system, can possibly deal with a problem on a scale of this kind. Certainly it will fail if he tries to centralise it to a board or to hand it over to a bureaucracy, to remove, at any rate, the safeguards of human sympathy and personal touch.

The Minister of Labour, to be worthy of his name, must be a Minister of Labour. The Ministry must be, not a Ministry of Relief, a Ministry of Unemployment, but a Ministry of Employment. The right hon. Gentleman's Department was originally built up for the particular purpose of finding work. All the branches of the Employment Exchanges were originally started, not to hand over money like a bank for insurance purposes, but they were started, organised, and initiated for the purpose of being centres of employment, for recognising that it was not healthy or good for people to be idle. It was their business to facilitate the placing of these men and the bringing of them back into the industrial army. I should be out of order in pursuing that subject, but the feeling of the country is strong and determined that it is not safe to continue on the present lines.

If the Minister wants to save his reputation and does not want to follow the unfortunate fate of all his predecessors [An HON. MEMBER: "Let him resign."] I hope he will not resign. I hope he will stick to his guns. It is not he who is responsible, but the Government, and it is not fair to shelter behind his young shoulders, for, after all, he is only a new Minister, and he was not even responsible for this particular Act of Parliament. I hope he will not resign. If there is to be any resignation, let it be that of the Government, let it be the Prime Minister, not an individual who is by no means responsible for the break down of the Unemployment Act. Let the right hon. Gentleman, I say, show imagination and vision, let him take a new approach to this unemployment problem, let him bring in a new kind of Measure, an employment Measure, re-cognising that the State will be strengthened and become healthier if these men are got back into work, into their old jobs if possible, or at any rate into some work of useful public service.

5.25 p.m.

Unlike the right hon. Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood), and unlike the hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Sir P. Harris), who has just spoken, I am afraid I cannot agree that the blame in this matter does not rest with the board. I want to say frankly that I consider the Unemployment Assistance Board have lost the confidence of this House of Commons, of the country, and of the unemployed under its present management and under its present policy. I want to ask my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour if he will kindly answer three specific questions. The first is, Has the Government any announcement to make regarding the future policy, programme, and personnel of the Unemployment Assistance Board, arising out of the present incidents which we are discussing to-night?

This House is still all-powerful, and if we combine, we can still rule this country. If we combine and want something done, we can insist on its being done.

My point was that we had no control over the board. The board has been set up, and we are powerless in the matter.

If this House of Commons decided to take some action, to change the whole of the administration, personnel, and programme of the board, we could to-night start to pass that as emergency legislation. My second question is: Must we be content with the statement of my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary as regards the financial provisions of this Bill, which are put vaguely at from £4,500,000 to £5,000,000, a rough estimate varying by some 12½ per cent.? When we are talking of public money in this way, it is not good enough that we should let this Bill pass with the explanation which was given to the House this afternoon. I know the Parliamentary Secretary can give no further figures to-night, but will he say that the Government will issue a White Paper, a statement, giving further particulars of the financial obligations of this Measure when the Unemployment Assistance Board and its officials are able to say what the obligation upon the taxpayers and ratepayers of the country is likely to be? I want to know if he will undertake, when it is possible to have further figures, that they will be made available to the House. The third question that I want to ask is: How long ahead is the second appointed day going to be? My hon. Friend in his speech was adroit in avoiding any question of giving any guidance upon that point, but nevertheless it is a point that has a tremendous bearing on the present situation.

I think the Government supporters are put in an invidious position in having to back this Bill to-night. We are asked to place the seal of approval on a series of unfortunate events culminating in a situation paradoxical and one that would be almost Gilbertian, were it not so tragic and so serious. There are three distinct contradictions in it, absurd contradictions. The first is that the unemployed in one category are, by the stand-still agreement, to be guaranteed against any reduction of income. In many cases they are being given increases, for in spite of what hon. Members above the Gangway may say, there are many cases of increase, which all of us know when we have gone down to our constituencies. Nevertheless, one class is to be guaranteed against any decrease and probably to be given increases. In another category, though, the unemployed, by the same stand-still agreement, are in no cases given increases and are still left exposed to possible reductions under the public assistance committee system. That is an absurdity.

The second contradiction is that we have had the administration of some local authorities condemned time after time from that Box as lax and immoral in the distribution of public money, and now that administration is to have the seal of Parliamentary approval put on it for an indefinite period ahead. This is the first time that we have seen the Conservative party, backing a National Government, putting the seal of approval on Poplarism in this country. That is what we are being asked to do. The third contradiction that I see in this situation is that the administration under the public assistance committees, which we have condemned as faulty and unfair, which has lacked uniformity and on occasion has been mean and unfair to the men, which was the very cause of our passing the last unemployment insurance Measure, is now to be retained for an unstated period; and we have had no indication when that state of affairs is to be altered. Indeed, one must say that the remedy of the Government is to the better-off, to make concessions, and, to the poorest, to give no improvement from the present proposals. How can we in the House have any confidence in the future workings of the board as at present constituted, and how can we know that their proposals in future will be efficient, practicable and fair in their workings? How do we know that there will not be any further muddles? What guarantee have we? How can we have any future confidence in any amended regulations that are brought to this House?

Did the hon. and gallant Gentleman go into the Lobby for the other regulations?

I regret that I was having my appendix removed, but I was in the very good company of the right hon. Gentleman beside me, now the Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel). It is inevitable that new regulations will be introduced, and how are we, who support the National Government, to be able to defend the forecast effect of those regulations with possible reductions if the board is to have the same personnel as it has at the present time?

Has not the hon. and gallant Gentleman read the proviso at the end of Sub-section (5) of Clause I of the Bill?

Yes, I have, but I cannot see that that has any particular bearing on the future when further regulations come. When we discuss the working of the board, I cannot see that we shall be able to do so with any confidence if the debacle, which is not the fault of the Government, but of the board, is to be allowed to remain in its present state. I do not think anybody wants a scapegoat. We do not want any heresy hunting, but the vital importance of having the confidence of the unemployed who will be affected by the new regulations transcends any personal relations or feelings of friendship. Those who are responsible for these regulations and the muddle which has been caused should be willing to bear their share of the burden. I agree that neither the Minister of Labour nor his Parliamentary Secretary nor the Department is responsible. The Chairman of the Unemployment Assistance Board left the Ministry of Labour to take the Chairmanship of the board. He had full knowledge of the Department's administration, and, he has full knowledge—

On a point of Order. Is it in order to attack the Chairman of the Unemployment Assistance Board whose salary is carried on the Consolidated Fund, and who is not, I understand, in any way under the control of this House?

5.35 p.m.

I was about to make the same remarks myself. There are precedents for regarding the Chairman of the board as one of the persons who can only be criticised on a substantive Motion.

I cannot accept your Ruling without some protest, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. Here is a board which gives the Government certain recommendations which cause the Government to alter their mind and to turn the whole Parliamentary machine upside down. Am I to understand that I am not allowed to say that that board or the chairman of the board is acting wrongly unless I put down a substantive Motion? Certain recommendations have come from the board—that, at any rate, is the Parliamentary theory. Am I to be told that we are not to say a word about where they have come from and to argue that the origin of them is bad? If that be the case, we may as well go home to bed.

Was not the independence of the board the foundation of a particular Act, and, if the Act is to blame, should we not criticise it?

Is it not a fact that the real responsibility for the regulations lies on the shoulders of the Government; that, while it is true that the board may make regulations, the Minister of Labour and the Government have reserved to themselves under the Act the power to agree or to disagree with the regulations; and that, therefore, the ultimate responsibility rests upon the Government?

While, according to your Ruling Mr. Deputy-Speaker one should not criticise the action of any individual member of the board are we not entitled to criticise the machinery of the board?

May I put this point? The Government are up against the local authorities now because of this board. Representatives of local authorities from Scotland and England are here in their hundreds to interview Ministers because of the burdens with which they have been faced owing to the action of the Government. The board have been a very long time in developing their scheme, because the members were only part-time; are we not in order in raising that matter?

I think the position has been put clearly by the hon. Member for Aberavon (Mr. Cove). When the House passed the Act of Parliament under which this board was appointed last Session, it deliberately put the salaries of the board on the Consolidated Fund. It has always been customary that where salaries are placed on the Consolidated Fund the persons receiving those salaries, whether acting as individuals or as a body, can only be challenged on a substantive Motion. I feel that I must adhere to what has hitherto been the practice. With regard to the question of responsibility, it is true that the regulations emanated from the board. The responsibility of issuing the regulations rests with the Minister, and he, of course, can be criticised.

Your Ruling, Sir, is in effect that these persons have to be treated as His Majesty's judges are treated. There is the difference, however, that His Majesty's judges by administrative acts do not deliberately affect the lives of the common people in the sense in which the acts of this board do. On questions of administration we are at liberty to raise the question even of the judges. I have raised the question of the conduct of judges as a group, but not as individuals. When the Government decided to increase the number of judges from two to four, I criticised the judges as a whole, but was not allowed to do it individually. That was on a Ruling of Mr. Speaker. I contend that the board has no right to be treated differently from His Majesty's judges, and that we are able at least to apply a general criticism to the board.

The House will realise that this is the first occasion on which we have had to deal with an administrative board the salaries of which are a charge on the Consolidated Fund. I realise that there is a great deal of force in the contention of the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) and that acts of the board as a whole do not come under the Ruling. When I stopped the hon. and gallant Member for the Isle of Thanet (Captain Balfour) he was not criticising the board, but the chairman as an individual. I clearly hold that that is covered by the practice of the House. If it be desired to criticise any member of the board as an individual, it can only be done on a substantive Motion. With regard to the wider question, I hesitate to narrow the Ruling given by Mr. Speaker.

Would not this be really the position—that it would be in order to criticise the existence of that administration as a system, that is to say, it would be in order to criticise the board as a system, as it would be to criticise the judicial system, but that that would be a different thing from criticising the policy adopted by that body either as a whole or as to one member of it?

I am at variance with your Ruling, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, and I should like the position to be made clear. Am I to understand that a member of this board can do anything, no matter how illegal, and that I am to be defenceless in this House unless I put down a Motion, for which Government time must be allocated? I was intending to draw attention to what I think was an illegal act of one of the members of the board. Am I to be precluded from challenging his action unless I put down a Motion on the Order Paper, and wait for time for its discussion, my constituents, possibly, being affected in the meantime? If that be your Ruling, I, for one, am certainly not accepting that situation without some protest.

The hon. Member's point appears to be one that is covered by my ruling, and that is that his remedy is to put down a substantive Motion charging the individual concerned. It has long been the rule with regard to certain persons that their conduct can only be challenged in this House by that method. Whether they are committing what are supposed to be illegalities or not, I must hold that that ruling applies to this board.

It has been pointed out that this is a new situation with which the House of Commons is confronted. We see now difficulties which we vaguely apprehended before you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, expressed some hesitation in giving a ruling, and I can appreciate your point of view. Accepting the ruling, which you gave just now as being provisional, will you take steps to see that on this matter an authoritative ruling is-given from the Chair, so that the House may know precisely where it is in relation to this board, and other boards which may be set up in future?

Of course I shall convey the hon. Member's remarks to Mr. Speaker, so that the point can have further consideration.

5.48 p.m.

Naturally I must adhere strictly to your ruling, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, and I will make only one personal observation on my criticism which has been ruled out of order and which shall not be repeated, and that is that it was no personal criticism of an individual, but only a criticism of administration and the carrying out of a particular work. I put it forward on the ground that when I feel there is blame in any quarter personal feelings of loyalty and friendship must be subordinated to the needs of the community whom we are serving.

I wish to conclude by repeating three questions, which I hope the right hon. Gentleman will answer to-night. Can he make any announcement as to the programme policy and personnel of the board other than it is now? Can he promise further financial details, when figures are available, giving us a closer estimate of the cost than the vague figure of £4,500,000 or £5,000,000? Finally, can he give any information as to how long ahead is the second appointed day? I feel that in the general administration of the board, which you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, admitted that it was in order to criticise, lies the fault—not in His Majesty's Government. It is inevitable that some of the faults which have occurred in that administration must be carried by the responsibility of His Majesty's Government; but if when we again pass regulations which may be unpopular to the Opposition we have had our confidence in the board restored by some reconstruction—to use a word which is popular just now—then I feel we shall be able to back the Government and support the Government more easily in their unenviable task of facing the political propaganda of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen of the Labour party, which we will face gladly for the sake of bringing some help to the unemployed, which the policies of the Opposition have always lamentably failed to do.

5.50 p.m.

The Parliamentary Secretary this afternoon said that the Bill was the decision of the Unemployment Assistance Board.

I said that this Bill was to carry out the decision of the board announced by my right hon. Friend.

Am I to understand that I was wrong in thinking that the Bill was the decision of the board, and not the decision either of the Ministry of Labour or of the Government? The impression made upon my mind was that the Ministry of Labour were merely voicing the views of the Unemployment Assistance Board, and that the Ministry of Labour and the Cabinet were washing their hands of the failure of the machine which has been created and worked by the board. I am glad if I was wrong in those impressions, but the failure of the board in dealing with the new machine leads me to have no faith in this Bill. Before I discuss the Bill and criticise it in its relation to the unemployed, I want to deal with a letter referring to the adjournment of the appointed day, 1st March. The letter came to me this morning, and I take it a similar letter was received by other Members for the County of Durham. It says: is a heavy expenditure for a distressed area like the county of Durham. I would remind the Minister and the Prime Minister that the Civil Lord, when visiting the county of Durham, made a recommendation that the Government ought to come to the rescue of the county of Durham and ought to be prepared to find £700,000 per annum for the county in order to relieve them of the big burden resting upon them. Now it seems that by this Bill their burden has to be continued; they have to bear far more than they ever expected to have to bear. I ask the Minister and the Prime Minister to give some attention to that complaint.

In my opinion, this Bill will not abate in the least the agitation in the country. If the Government believe that it will settle the agitation which has been sweeping the country they are making a sad mistake. What they propose will meet some cases, and some cases only. The Bill proposes that whatever transitional benefits a man was receiving when the board came into existence shall be paid at the present time, but I ask the the Minister to give some attention to this case, to my mind one of the hardest cases. We have had a lot of trouble with commissioners in Durham. We have had two years of commissioners cutting down our people and starving our people. There is no question about that. At the end of those two years we have this Unemployment Assistance Board, which James Douglas in the "Sunday Express" called the "Black Board," though I would rather term it the "starvation board," coming in and proving, if anything, worse than the commissioners.

The case I put to the Minister concerns a man and wife and six children. I could give him the name and address. The two eldest children are two sons, one age 24 and the other 21, then there is a daughter of 19, and after her three children under 11 years of age. The father was unemployed. The two sons are both employed in a coke yard filling coke—very hard work; not at all an easy job. The father, having these two sons at work, was given a nil determination by the commissioner on 14th November, to continue until 16th January—until a week after the Unemployment Assistance Board came into existence. Previously he had been receiving from 5s. up to 32s. a week —it all depended on the number of days the two sons were working. When 16th January came he made an application to the Unemployment Assistance Board, and again got a nil determination from the board. That was on 17th January. Two days later on 19th January, his two sons simply said "We are standing this no longer" and they left the house and went to lodgings, left the father and mother and the four children.

What would you do as a young man of 24 or 21? Would you be prepared to relieve the Unemployment Assistance Board from giving relief by spending all your money on the household? You would not do it.

Let us discuss this quietly. I simply take the case as my hon. Friend has presented it. I know how keenly he feels, and I feel keenly myself. I have had some personal experience. What I understand is that two working sons left their home and their poor old father in the lurch because they were compelled to contribute towards his support?

No, because they were compelled to relieve the Unemployment Assistance Board, were compelled to find money which the board ought to have found in order to keep the father.

Let the hon. Member not misunderstand me. I agree that the Unemployment Assistance Board and their predecessors, the public assistance committee, should grant reasonable help. I was saying that here are two working sons who leave their father in the lurch because the board—or whatever the authority is—insist upon their helping to keep their father.

One of the effects of the means test, not only in the county of Durham but up and down the country, is to smash up family life. It forces sons who want to save a few pounds with which to get married to leave home in order to be able to save that money.

I know that the hon. Gentleman does not want to misrepresent his own position, and that he wants to be perfectly fair in this question. He has given us details as to a husband and wife in a family of a eight, of which two sons are working. According to the determination, and assuming that they were all unemployed, the income would be 61s. What the hon. Gentleman has not told the House is the income of those two sons on the other side of the balance. We do not know whether the officers were right in giving a nil determination until we know what those figures are.

I have not finished with the case yet. There is a lot more to be said in regard to it. The hon. Member asks what were the wages of the two sons who were working. The father says:

"Wages not known to me, but obtained … by the area office,"

who got the wages information. The father did not know what the sons were earning.

"The sons paid £1 each per week when working, and also give their mother the money to buy their clothes and boots, of which, owing to the nature of their work, they use an enormous amount."

They applied to the Unemployment Assistance Board on the 17th, and they got a nil determination, just as they got from the commissioners. On the 19th, the two sons leave home, leaving the father, mother and the four children with no income. The father goes back to the Unemployment Assistance Board, makes his statement to the board and gets a definite refusal. What he did then was to fill up a form to go to the appeal tribunal. I have a copy of the form here. He gets a reply back from the appeal tribunal that the chairman refuses to grant him the right of appeal. There is the case of a man and wife and four children in which the chairman of the appeal tribunal refuses the right to appeal, although there is no benefit coming in at all and the family have no resources whatever. Then the man goes to the Poor Law authority and the relieving officer says: "We have no power to relieve you." That man can get no money from the Unemployment Assistance Board, he is not even allowed to appeal and he can get nothing from the Poor Law authority because the officer of the authority said that that was illegal, and it was.

He says that the officer of the board refused. Does he mean to say that the officer investigated the circumstances and still gave a nil determination, or that the officer would not hear the case at all?

I will read the case, starting at the beginning:

"Before that determination was made"—

that was, by the commissioner—

"I received various sums in transitional payments, ranging from 5s. to 32s. per week, according to the days the sons worked. Since that they had worked very regular, and I received another nil determination on 17th January, 1935, and"—

Royal Assent

Message to attend the Lords Commissioners.

The House went;—and, having returned;

Mr. SPEAKER reported the Royal Assent to:

1. Supreme Court of Judicature (Amendment) Act, 1935.

2. Electricity (Supply) Act, 1935.

Unemployment Assistance (Temporary Provisions) Bill

Question again proposed, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."

6.16 p.m.

I was starting to read the man's letter for the benefit of the Minister. I will continue: He gives a copy of the appeal that he sent on the 26th. The commissioner made the determination on the 16th, and on the 26th he filled up the notice of appeal. He filled it up on three grounds:

The Bill makes one suspicious. It says that men are to be paid unless there has been a change of circumstances, but, if the officer who dealt with that case is to judge the change of circumstances, it is a sorrowful outlook for these people. We thought in County Durham that we could not be worse than we were under the commissioner, but I have a lot of hard cases that have occurred since the new board came into existence, in which the allowance granted by the commissioner has been cut down. I will not weary the House with a citation of them, but there is another point about which I want to know.

The Bill does not seem to me to deal with another class of cases which, in my opinion, will cause a greater uproar in the country than has occurred already. That is the class of cases known as special difficulty cases. An officer has power to make any man who comes under the Unemployment Assistance Board a special difficulty case on the ground that the applicant has failed to avail himself of the opportunity of employment or training. Having created that special difficulty case, the officer has power to deal with him in three ways: The allowance granted may be issued otherwise than in cash; the allowance may be granted only on condition that the applicant attends at a work centre; or the allowance may be granted only on condition that the applicant becomes an inmate of the workhouse. The board will not have to create many cases like that, where a man is forced into the workhouse to get an allowance for his wife and family simply because the officer says that he did not avail himself of the opportunity of employment. Let the board get into its stride and create these cases, and I venture to say that in this country there will be a greater storm than has been aroused during the last few weeks. Personally, I want the board abolished. That is where I stand—I want Part II of the Act abolished. That, I consider, is the only remedy. As long as Part II exists, and as long as the board exists, we shall have the means test, and the means test is one of the most atrocious things that was ever applied to people in this country. There has been a Debate as to whether the board or the Government are to blame—

The board are to blame; the Government are to blame; the supporters of the Government are to blame. The responsibility rests upon all Members who voted for Part II of the Bill and for the setting up of the Unemployment Assistance Board, and they are bound to take the blame. There is only one remedy for the present condition of things, and that is to sweep away the whole of Part II of the Act.

6.25 p.m.

As a great many Members wish to speak, I will cut my remarks down to a minimum. The first question that I want to ask and to answer is: "Why did the reductions occur?" I speak from a place where the county reductions have been 90 per cent. and the town reductions 80 per cent. In the first place, there is the question of difference in rent—the practice, which I think has been hitherto unknown under the Poor Law, of reducing the amount when the rent was low. In the county area this has amounted to anything from 1s. to 10s. Secondly, the sheer basic rates were definitely lower. I am talking now of a particular area, but the scales which apply in that area cover a large proportion of Scotland. I am speaking of an area somewhat larger than my own constituency. Then there is the question of assessment of earnings. Where a person is earning, say, 40s. that amounts to 6s., and where a person is working spare time it amounts to 6s.; and, adding back the rent, the amount is doubled, making the total reduction 12s. I do not want to weary the House with figures, but naturally I can substantiate all these statements. That is the difference between the scale of the Unemployment Assistance Board and the local public assistance scale as it was operating before.

Each constituency has its own peculiarities, and that is the essence of this problem. In my constituency there happen to be a number of women working—a school cleaner, say, getting 20s., or a number of women working in hosiery, lace, or other mills. In these cases the difference between the amount allowed by the board and the original scale amounts to no less than 9s. I could go into a good many other differences in the neighbourhool of 12s., 8s., 9s., and so on. I have taken 25 specimen cases of similar families—say a man, his wife and three children, or whatever it may be—as relieved by the county of Ayrshire and as relieved by the town, and in 50 per cent. the county gave more, while in 50 per cent. the town gave more. That is the sort of position that existed before the board came into operation, and, if the board has done nothing else but reveal and expose to the whole country that state of things, it has done some good. I am not saying that any of these scales is too low or too high, but I am saying that in the same area, where the rent is the same and the environment is the same, for one man to get in a county area between 10s. and 19s. more, while in another set of cases in the town he gets between 10s. and 19s. more, reveals an absolutely absurd, unfair, and inequitable position. It was that state of affairs to which the board had to address itself. How in the world could a board, with regulations made by senior wranglers, possibly deal with a situation like that?

The next point that I wish to make is that, as far as Scotland is concerned, the comparison must be made with the scales before the 1st July, because they all went up from 23s. 6d. to 26s. after the 1st July. That is a very important point. In these identical cases it is not fair that, when they are dealt with by different authorities—say, taking London as a comparison, as between Poplar and Stepney, where the conditions are very much the same—there should be differences ranging from 8s. 3d. to 19s. 6d. Either the one man is getting too much and the other is getting too little, or there is thoroughly bad administration. I think it is our bounden duty to expose this position. I do not see how the board could have done very much better as it was constituted.

I want to make two further points. The first is a point of criticism, and the second some constructive proposals which emanate from this crisis. Many of us during the passage of the Bill put forward time after time suggestions to the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary. I warned the Government, and I warned the Ministers, that you cannot go on indefinitely making suggestions with every ounce of good will unless they are going to be translated into some sort of practical form. Time after time we said that local knowledge was vital. Time after time we said that the tribunals could never work. Our criticisms were never answered. There was spectacular talk of 3s. for a child, and that got a large Press all over the country, as if that had anything to do with the question. Any one knows that 3s. for a child is too small. It was an unreal Debate, because the Government support is so large that we never got down to really detailed criticism, and we never had a first-class Debate on the principles of unemployment insurance. I blame the Treasury and I blame the Ministry of Labour for butting in at a certain point of a very important piece of administration. I am sufficiently conservative and evolutionary to know that you cannot make radical changes in the administration of the social services. You have to go slowly. This was pointed out time after time. The hon. and gallant Member for Thanet (Captain Balfour) has been ruled out of order in his criticisms of the board. I agree with every word that he said.

After all, what is the problem? Because some local authorities are bad, it is not a good excuse for abolishing local authorities. Surely what holds with regard to health and education has got to hold in this regard also, that the right relation is devolution from the centre down to the local authorities. In other words, you have to get your administration centred well, at Whitehall or where-ever it may be, and then you can work down to your local authorities. What happened before was that the local authorities were running Whitehall. That is a wholly impossible method of administration. The evolutionary method would have solved the problem. Instead of that we made a cut, a great gash, in the 300-year old method of the Poor Law. Anyone who has been a guardian knows the enormous care that was put into it, whether by Labour or by Conservative councils, all over the country. I appeal to the new Minister of Labour, who has no previous responsibility whatever. He has done the big thing and the right thing, and he has to follow it up now by doing the big thing and the right thing in his constructive proposals. First of all, he has to see that the Minister of Labour's job corresponds with the realities of the position. Secondly, he has to see that some form of regional commission or committee is appointed for rough areas. Any of us who know our own areas can suggest what those areas should be. I should not mind if it were rural and urban combined, because you would get a rather rich variety of experience, but you must have some form of regional committees. Who is to appoint them? We asked this question a year ago. There has to be something in the nature of district committees which will have something to do with the final assessment. If you do that, the tribunals can be thrown aside.

These things can be done with only minor amendments of the main Act. I do not think it a good point to abolish the whole of local administration. I think it is the job of a central board to draw up broad lines of policy, whether it is this board or, as the hon. and gallant Member for Thanet suggests, another board. Have upper limits and lower limits and leave scope to be treated on merits by the local committees. It cannot be done by any central body. It is a practical impossibility. Then I suggest that each regional committee should frame a general policy for its region and that the Minister's position should not be one of approving every detail. That is quite unnecessary. His relation should be similar to that of the President of the Board of Education with regard to local education authorities or the Minister of Health with regard to local authorities. Lastly I think that the household test, as these regulations have proved, must be modified for all able-bodied workers over 18 except, of course, in the case of married couples, and we have to make this business of the household correspond with normal dependency as the law knows it.

These are only a few suggestions, but I make them with the desire that the Minister should start his term with firm principles and, if he does that, it will be worthy of the realities of the situation, and I believe worthy of this National Government. There will be die-hards on both sides who will object for opposite reasons. Let them object. I believe you will carry not only the conscience of the country, which is rather inflamed at present, but you will be able to expose things which are wrong, some of which I have mentioned, and some scales which are quite out of keeping. There are people in my area getting twice as much as other families in identical circumstances. There is the question whether when a woman is earning, say, 35s. a week, the man should be given anything. In my opinion, it is not the duty of that woman to keep the man. There is a whole series of questions of first-class importance which we have never really discussed. I suggest that, if the board lays down an upper and a lower limit and gives scope to these regional committees, I believe the thing will be administratively possible and the new Minister of Labour will start his work on the Bill, and temper it with the same kind of wisdom and the same kind of judgment that he gave to the other posts that he has adorned.

6.40 p.m.

The hon. Member first complained about lack of uniformity, and at the end he says you must have local districts because uniformity is no use.

I am sorry if I did not make the point clear. I quoted families paying the same rent within some five or six miles. There could not be any difference there, but one committee gave 19s. more than the other. I said that was difficult to defend.

The hon. Member comes along with the constructive suggestion that we should set up area councils, but in the area councils you would have just what is happening inside the lesser districts. He says if the local districts are to have power, they must be allowed local discretion within their area. The moment you get into that, you have local discretion between one area and another. It is true that he has lessened the gap, but the principle remains the same, that one area has discretion and another has not. We passed an Act, but in essence we did not pass an Act. We only passed a carcase. The real Act was the regulations. That carcase set up a board in Part II. The real Act was the operation of the board. The House of Commons was never allowed to discuss the regulations. Members in all parts of the House pleaded for the right to discuss the principles. The principles could not be discussed in Parliament, but only in the regulations. We could have discussed them in Part I but not in Part II. The hon. Member must take some responsibility here. He deliberately walked into the Lobby and said the House of Commons must not discuss the principle. He must not come here and say, "This House is to blame because we did not discuss the principle owing to party conflict." It was done because the Government said that to go into all those things in Part II was a wrong approach to the solution of the problem. I disagree with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) who said that the Government were entirely to blame. The Government are to blame but the board, too, is to blame, and this House is to blame.

I am rather at a loss here because I read in the official organ of the Labour party that a Vote of Censure was to be moved to-day. To some extent we are limited to-day because, if you are raising the issue again on Thursday, there are bound to be cross-currents now. The board and the Government must accept the responsibility. Let us try to face the situation as it was, and as it now is. The Government were administering the Act through the local authorities, and the Government came to the conclusion that a board should be set up, and that it should make certain regulations. Please bear in mind that they were the board's regulations, and not the Government's. They only became the Government's when the Government disagreed with them. I know that the "Daily Herald" and other papers had said this. I want to be frank. I cannot stand what I feel in my inner conscience to be the double crossing which is going on at the moment. One is entitled to attack the board and these people, but it should be done with some degree of honesty and conviction. I find a form of double crossing or shuffling from one to the other. Each have their agents trying to shuffle something on to other persons. The board are given the duty of drafting the regulations. They are drafted, and the Act says that if the Government differ from them, the Government must publish the regulations showing the difference, but no regulations showing any difference have been published. Therefore, the regulations must have been the board's and it is no use for people to say that they were not the board's. They were the board's, and afterwards they became the Government's, because the Government adopted them en bloc. Therefore, the dual responsibility rests with t)he board and the Government. The Minister is starting a new career, and has advantages which few men have got. He will not deny that heredity has helped him. I do not say this with any disrespect. He started young, and he has something to go on in the future.

There is one thing which has taken place which has not been mentioned, and it is this. The Press, whether you like it or not, make or mar things. There is the "Daily Herald." Sometimes I wish it had not a great circulation, because I think it is Very unfair sometimes. It has a very great circulation and it moulds opinion, and at times it does it very unfairly. But that does not matter. The "Daily Herald" comes out and says that this board wanted to give the unemployed something like £10,000,000 more, and that the Treasury deliberately cut it down. That is the charge made by the Labour paper in the country. If I were a Labour person I would make it. The truth is that it is not the Labour people, but, if a responsible organ makes such a statement and the Government refuse to meet it, then the Government are to blame, because they ought to meet it. There were one or two Amendments made, but they meant, if anything, an improvement on the regulations originally drafted. That was what the Government said. I hope that I shall be allowed to say this, because I do not make an attack on the individual. I will try not to do so. The chief correspondent of the Scottish edition of the "Daily Herald" is the treasurer of my native city, the biggest rating authority apart from London. There is this further significance that their chief Poor Law officer is on the board. Naturally the two work hand in hand. In the Scottish edition of yesterday's "Daily Herald" it was stated that they have authentic information. The Government can say what they like. They can cut down the board, and they are in a position to do it. I feel sorry for some of the poor officials who are running this thing, because it is all so belittling to them. I am not now trying to belittle the board or the Government. The whole current running through the city is that they wanted to do more, and you deliberately kept them from doing it.

It is time the House of Commons knew the facts. The men concerned here are as capable as the board. Thy ought to know the facts. Is it true or not? Does the board want to cut the allowances down? It has been said by an hon. Friend sitting near me that the scales originally set by the board were so bad that even the Government would attack them. For the sake of their own people, the Government should givv the facts. We as Members of the House of Commons, elected to what is said to be the most democratic Assembly, should know the facts. All Governments have told the people that they would provide work, and they have not done it. They have simply passed them by saying, "If you get work, take it." The only problem is one of maintenance, and the House of Commons cannot say whether the board is to blame or who is to blame. It is time the Minister told us the facts.

The position to-day is that there is a whole series of contradictions. My native city of Glasgow, under the new position, provides extra supplementary relief. We give what the House of Commons gave in theory but not in practice. The House of Commons through the regulations said that 3s. should be the child's allowance. This was done in theory, but not in practice. The city of Glasgow pays 3s. in respect of the child, as was suggested. What has happened? Can the Government defend this? Under the law in respect of standard benefit claims, a supplementary allowance can be made up by the Poor Law. It is legal for the Poor Law authorities to make a supplementary allowance, and the only person who cannot get 3s. in respect of his child, or a supplementary allowance, is the man who is unfortunate in coming under transitional benefit. The Parliamentary Secretary knows that batches of cases come before the umpire every fortnight. I remember winning a case before the umpire for a man who afterwards wished that he had not come under the Act, as if he had remained chargeable to the Poor Law he would have received an average of 3s. more in respect of his children. You have these groups. First of all there are the short-time unemployed. They can be supplemented. The long-time unemployed can be supplemented, but the Poor Law authority must not supplement in any way those belonging to the group in between.

There is, unfortunately, in this country, owing to the cruel action of the Ministry of Health, a group of people who have passed outside National Health Insurance. They are not now eligible for maternity benefits in respect of their wives. A man goes to the board and asks if he is not entitled to something, and the board tell him that it is a health matter. He then goes to the Poor Law authority, and they tell him that they cannot allow him anything because he is chargeable to the board. And there the poor devil stands. Can you imagine a situation more hellish than that? In my district I know of a case relating to a slum home where a man has gone to the board, and they have said, "No," and the parish council have said, "No, it is illegal," and the poor devil is driven from pillar to post. Can you defend that? No ruling is given. No one knows what are and what are not the duties of the parish council and the Poor Law authorities. Apart from anything else, the Minister should allow the Poor Law authorities to supplement in regard to all the cases. Is there any reason for saying that the Poor Law authority should not help?

A serious situation has arisen. Hitherto the old Poor Law authority both in England and in Scotland, if a man got into difficulties during a time of unemployment and appealed to them, made a grant of a £1 or 30s., so that the rent could be paid. To-day that does not happen. The Poor Law authorities say that they cannot do it. Why not resume the old procedure? It is said to-day that certain Poor Law authorities are breaking the law. Who is breaking the law? Take Sheffield. If next week you make any deductions, in any view, it will be illegal. If the Poor Law made them a grant for that week, they were in destitution, and it is illegal for you to recover anything if during the week the claim was made that destitution had been proved. You are making them pay back in Sheffield in an illegal fashion. You are punishing the Poor Law for illegal acts, though to-day you are paying money out of the Unemployment Fund, which is not the property of the Unemployment Board, to make payments to the poor. What respect can anyone have for law and decency when the Government come along and break the law in this horrible fashion?

One word about the matter raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Spennymoor (Mr. Batey) that a father's two sons should walk out of the house and leave him chargeable to the Poor Law. We should have clarity on this issue. I can give a case to show that under the law in this country, and particularly in Scotland, the son is held to be responsible for the upkeep of his parents. That is a point which the right hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury) has held, and I borrow it from him. The parents can take the son to court and sue him for maintenance. In that case the judge, after hearing the case, decides that maintenance should be provided at a rate of 5s. or 10s. a week. If the son stays at home with the whole family then everything he earns goes into the house, but if he chooses to say I am going to court, all he has to pay is what the court decides. If he stays outside, it is very rare that a court makes an order for more than 10s. a week, but if he stays at home he has to contribute on the same wage 30s. to 35s. a week. Is it defensible?

I know of a professional footballer earning what is regarded as a good sum, between £7 and £8 a week. He knows that at the end of 10 years he will have to finish with football. Out of 20 footballers he may be the only one who cannot save—for a footballer must save—because he has three brothers idle and a father and mother without pension, and has to keep them all. At the end of his football days he has to go on in poverty, while every other member of the team sets up in some business. Can you blame him if he goes to court and pays what the judge says? He is picked on because he happens to be the one in the family who is not out of work. It all depends on a turn of the handle: it is that which puts Mr. Buchanan into Parliament and the other man at the end of the queue of unemployed. The whole approach is wrong. The Minister ought to take warning. This is an issue of a means test or no means test. In an answer to the hon. Member for Chester-le-Street (Mr. Lawson) I believe in effect he said the cost of abolishing the means test would be about £10,000,000, or thereabout.

I pointed out at the time that the figures were rather misleading, because all I could get would be the cases where savings were made.

That only came to £5,000,000, but I doubled that and would say £17,000,000, or £12,000,000, or £10,000,000. He is faced with this proposal costing £4,500,000, but that is not all. There is the cost of running the machine which is the most expensive you could get, for the reason that the family income alters from week to week. One of the sheriffs of Glasgow, speaking the other night, said it was most appalling to see the terrible increase in the number of men who came before him who were not criminals, but were there guilty of telling lies about this matter. A judge once said that people may tell a lie for a good purpose, but once they started lying it became a frame of mind. You are teaching them to lie. They do it not for badness, but for good. Who is there sitting in this House who has not lied? But that is a different matter. To the cost of the administration is added that of crime, trouble, and the effect on world prestige. We have been told about our prestige in arms and armaments, but every nation will judge you on the happiness of the common people. Is it worth your prestige? I am not a Roman Catholic, but the Roman Catholic people in my constituency are amazed and aghast at this cheapening of moral feeling. Is it worth it? The Minister is young and may make his faults, but long after this Government is passed, he will be judged not on general record but on how he treated decent people, and I appeal to him to abolish this test and give to the common folk a decent chance.

7.11 p.m.

I am one of those who rather regret the necessity for this Bill. I do hope the Minister will tell us a little more of the difficulties that led to its production. It is quite obvious that there has been a bad slip-up between the Ministry of Labour and the Unemployment Assistance Board. I voted for the Unemployment Bill and for the regulations. I consider I know as much about the Bill as anyone in this House. I still think it is a good Bill, and I still think the regulations will not require much alteration for the benefit of the unemployed as a whole as was intended. At the time the regulations came into force I was in my constituency, and took great pains to go into details. I found about the same state of affairs as that detailed by the hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. K. Lindsay).

I will give one case of a family of four who were getting 56s. Under the regulations their need was assessed at 34s. 9d. That was arrived at by giving a man who had been receiving 19s. a week a nil assessment. A case like that is quite indefensible. But I also found that in many cases people had been getting, in my view, very generous allowances from the public assistance committees—I think quite rightly, for in my part of the world we have had many people out of work for years. I do not blame anyone a bit for that, I also found a great many people getting more than they did before. I went up to my constituency the week before last to attend several public meet- ings. One of them was in a place where I had the usual interruptions from supporters of the party opposite, but this time I found that the members of the Independent Labour party were for once rather quiet. My agent pointed out that he supposed this was because the local leader, having a high rent and large family was getting several shillings a week more than before. However that may be, they were unaccountably inactive.

The right hon. Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) said that the Government in this matter presented a sorry spectacle. I confess that when I heard the Minister of Labour the other day I thought he had climbed down too far. I think he gave an opportunity to the Opposition of which they have not been slow to take advantage. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield talked about a storm of protest which was not confined to the recipients of these payments. The Opposition have not hesitated to turn themselves into Valkyries and to ride that storm of protest and I do not blame them. At the same time I am sorry to hear that the agitation against the means test and the family means test in particular, is being revived. I would be the last in the world to deny that the family means test is a very difficult problem but I assert, and I think all decent people will agree, that some kind of means test—and some kind of family means test—is essential. Whatever hon. Members may say to the effect that the family is no longer the unit of life in this country I maintain strongly that the family is the main unit of Christian civilisation all over the world and will always be so. Difficult cases will arise but in my view it is wrong to suggest that parents have no responsibility towards adult children or that adult children have no responsibility towards aged parents. I do not think that such a proposition could be maintained.

I said just now that I thought the Minister had climbed down too far. At the same time hardships were being caused as I found in the cases which were brought to my notice in my own constituency. I represent a place which I have known all my life. I have known many of these people when they were in prosperous circumstances and I have seen them come down to what is very little removed from sheer destitution. As I say, in dealing with cases of that sort I found that the regulations had undoubtedly caused hardships and I for one would rather see the Minister go a great deal too far, as I think he has done, than to see those people continue in that state of destitution. It may be said that all this is going to cost money. Well, the country can afford it. A year or two ago we could not have afforded it but we can do so now. We can find money for armaments and for subsidies and we can find the money for this purpose. But we cannot go on doing this sort of thing for ever.

I believe as I stated at the outset of my speech that these regulations are fundamentally sound and that the Unemployment Act itself is sound. It received close examination in the Committee Stage and I think the whole House must accept responsibility for having passed it. I do not believe in running away from these things. I have stood up for it in my constituency and I am prepared to stand up for it here. Resolutions have poured into me from all over the place on account of this climb-down and, as I say, the means test agitation which never really got hold of the working class in this country is being renewed. During the last three years up to now I have hardly heard a single unfavourable mention of the means test in my constituency. There has been an acceptance of the principle of the test. Now, of course, the Government have given this opportunity for reviving the agitation and as I say resolutions are pouring in once more, but they will recive from me the same answer as I am giving in the House to-day, namely that I believe in a means test and a family means test, in principle, although I think that in its application one has to be careful not to take steps which may lead to the breaking up of the family. When all is said and done, however, nobody can break up a family except a member of that family. If young people are so selfish that they will not contribute towards their parents that is their affair. Do not blame the Government for it.

This Bill will, I hope, be the prelude to a final reorganisation of this system which will put it on a firm basis. Not only is it a waste of our time to have to deal with this sort of thing but it causes great hardship among the unemployed and great uneasiness among the unfortunate men who have to administer the Act. I know that these men have done their best. I know that they feel very deeply the unpleasant nature of the task which they have had to do in dealing with many of these cases. I would like to pay a tribute to those in my area who have administered these new regulations. They have worked hard and truly and well and wherever it was possible, in hard cases, to stretch the regulations they have done so. The whole trouble was that, however elastic we may have imagined these regulations were going to be, the elasticity did not extend to the local offices and that was what was wanted.

I associate myself with those hon. Members who have suggested the importance of using local opinion and experience in the working of these regulations in different areas. Areas vary and even within a few miles you will find widely differing sets of circumstances. I would suggest to the Minister that the determination of the areas should not be a matter of geographical boundaries alone. My constituency for example which lies just south of the Tees is geographically in the North Riding of Yorkshire. It constitutes a little "black country" in the corner of a large agricultural county but actually, as regards administering any regulations, or from the point of view of any local committee which might be set up for that purpose it should really be regarded as forming part of Durham. It is for all practical purposes a part of that great industrial community of the North-East and has no real connection with Yorkshire. I would suggest to the Minister that in determining these areas that kind of thing should be taken into account and that he should not stick to the purely geographical boundaries.

One other question which requires consideration is that of giving special treatment to areas in which almost everybody is and has been for some time out of work. We all know of areas where un-employment is not so bad and where those who are out of work have relations in employment to help them in one way or another—in money, or in kind, or perhaps merely in providing them with certain amenities. But there are other places—I have one or two in my constituency where the circumstances are very different. There is the case for instance—of a village dependent upon a pit which has been closed down for years—a village perhaps tucked away up on the edge of the moor, having no amenities and no surrounding attractions at all and with practically all its inhabitants out of work. Places of that kind are definitely in greater need than the other places which I have indicated. I suggest that, if possible, some special treatment should be meted out to districts of that description.

7.23 p.m.

As a Member representing an industrial constituency I desire to intervene in the Debate on the Second Reading of this Bill and at the outset I wish to make clear to the House the two reasons why I supported the Unemployment Act and especially Part II of that Act. First and most important was the assurance given by the Minister that the lot of the unemployed would not be worsened as a result of the new administration. The second was that it carried into effect, partially at any rate, something which I have advocated ever since I came into this House, namely, that the Government should accept responsibility for the maintenance of the unemployed and not leave them to be a burden on the local rates in areas which were necessarily depressed by the very fact of the unemployment existing in them.

When the first determinations of the new board were made I, along with many other Members on all sides in this House, was astounded at the hardship which was being inflicted by them. I live in the constituency which I represent and, when I go down to my constituency, I meet friends some of whom support me wholeheartedly, while others disagree with me politically. Irrespective of whether those constituents of mine support me or not, I have always had respect from all of them because they know that I would stand by them and take up their cause. Many cases, then, were brought to my notice. I am not going to weary the House tonight by mentioning the various hardships which I found were being inflicted in those cases. Similar cases have been mentioned by hon. Members from constituencies close to mine. I would merely say that I had cases in which the amount of 30s. had been reduced to 3s., the amount of 24s. reduced to 5s. or 6s. and one case in which an allowance of 28s. had come down to 2d. I, naturally, felt that cases of that kind must be investigated, not on any question of politics but on a question of common humanity which is above and outside the political arena altogether.

I feel that it must surely be possible for all parties to agree as to the provision which the State can and ought to make for its unfortunate citizens whose misery of mind, as a result of unemployment, is profound enough without being deepened by the absence of means to provide reasonable warmth and maintenance. If I had to make one political observation in relation to a subject such as this, I would say that the recent spontaneous expression of public anxiety concerning this matter has shown us the advantage of democracy over dictatorship. I think that is a point which ought to be made in this House. A dictator would not be amenable to the pressure of public opinion. Indeed public opinion would not be allowed to express itself in opposition to such a government, but would be sternly and ruthlessly suppressed. The events of the last few days in this country could not have happened in Germany and we do well to take heed of that fact.

I congratulate the Minister and the Government on the prompt steps taken a few days ago to remove these hardships which undoubtedly exist and of which proof has been given from all sides of the House. But I want to know what of the future? In the first place, the Government's promise that the lot of the unemployed should not be worsened must be implemented. In the second place, nothing must be done which will tend to destroy family life. The regulations must not be interpreted in such a way as to leave the single man with the choice of either leaving the home in which he was reared or remaining there in the heart-sickening knowledge that he is a burden on his parents or his brothers and sisters. If the Unemployment Assistance Board have to pay him more if he leaves home and becomes a lodger there is no reason why they should not pay him that same amount when he remains at home. The same remark applies to the case where the father is unemployed and the son the wage earner. I could give many instances of this kind. In the third place I feel that there must be a more generous idea as to what is necessary house- hold expenditure before the net income of the household is assessed.

I say that only two factors should be taken into consideration in giving assistance. In the first place, it should be what the applicant needs and, in the second place, what income he possesses to meet those needs. I am not leaving the second factor out of account, but I believe the first consideraion should be what the applicant really needs and then what income he possesses to meet those needs. What income anybody else in the household has should not be taken into consideration other than a reasonable household income limit, and it should not be beyond the wit and good will for all parties to agree upon. To consider the few shillings which the son or daughter is contributing to a household, or old age pensions, any compensation or army pensions, and so on, is not worthy of this great nation. When the new regulations are brought forward I am sure we shall find that the Minister of Labour has treated this question in the sympathetic manner which we expect, and that we shall be asked to do something much better than was possible under the old regulations.

Let me mention one other point, the case of a woman in a household who is at present given 2s. a week less than a man, and a female young person who is given 1s. less. To suggest that a woman can be kept from destitution on a smaller sum than a man is indefensible. You get the anomaly that two sons get more assistance than a son and a daughter, although the cost of housing is surely much higher in the case where there is a son and daughter in the same home than the case where there is two sons, because of the problem of sleeping accommodation for young persons of different sexes. That is an anomaly which ought to be put right in the new regulations.

I am not making these remarks in order to catch any votes of the unemployed in my constituency. They know me too well to believe that I would be standing here simply for the purpose of catching votes in my constituency, and hon. Members whose constituencies adjoin mine know the type of person who is speaking in regard to this matter. It is the human touch which is necessary here as well as elsewhere. We must give credit to the Government for the way in which, if you like, they have handsomely given way, and for what they have done in the interests of the people of the country. Two things were threatened by the regulations which have been withdrawn—home life and independence, two things which are nowhere more cherished than in the North of England. The new regulations will, I believe, dispose of any fears some of us may have in this respect, and we can hope that the future is going to be much better than the past.

My last word is in regard to the postponement of the appointed day. Local authorities are very much concerned about this matter, because most of them have already budgeted in the hope that a large part of their burden was being taken over by the State. If this burden is still to be carried by local authorities, the State should certainly reimburse them. In my constituency of Barnsley it means that a sum of £350 per week is required, and the local authorities have already put into force a relief reorganisation scheme which has had to be postponed. I ask the Minister to see that the appointed day is the very earliest date possible, so that industrial areas like my own will be able to make their arrangements.

7.39 p.m.

My hon. Friend the Member for Spennymoor (Mr. Batey) read a long letter from the clerk to the Durham County Council setting forth the serious view they take of their potential obligations under the Bill owing to the postponement of the appointed day. I want to reinforce my hon. Friend and to say that the letter could be repeated by almost every responsible body in the county of Durham irrespective of party. We expect that the Government, therefore, will not allow local authorities to suffer in this matter. There may be some difference of opinion as to who is responsible for the position in which the House now finds itself. Some may say it is the Board, others that it is the Minister, and others that it is the Government; but, at any rate, nobody suggests that it is the local authorities, and when we remember the pertinent observations which the Civil Lord of the Admiralty made in his report in regard to Durham as to the burden of rates and their effect on the county, we who represent divisions in the county of Durham feel that we are entitled to make a special appeal to the Government for an assurance before the Debate closes that local authorities will not be allowed to suffer in any way as a result of the postponement of the appointed day.

We are ostensibly discussing the Second Reading of this Bill, but really we are not examining its provisions so much as endeavouring to find out the real significance of the outburst of public opinion which has resulted in this legislation being introduced. We should try, as far as we can, to read properly the significance of the outburst of opinion in all parts of the country, not confined to political boundaries or sectarian differences, but a general outburst of public opinion against the regulations. One thing emerges from this expression of opinion, and that is that public opinion is convinced that the unemployed are being maintained on the lowest possible level and that they will not in any circumstances tolerate any reduction of any case, judged on the level prior to the 7th January. That is the most significant thing; and any alterations which may be made after the temporary period has expired must accept the desire of public opinion that the rates now paid shall be the minimum rates and that any adjustment made in order to equalise the burden of rents must be by supplementing the existing allowances, not by reducing allowances in order to find an average level of maintenance.

It is pertinent to inquire how Parliament came to pass regulations which so violated public opinion. In asking that question we are probing further the merits of these particular regulations. Parliament is representative of the people, is elected by the people. How comes it, with hon. Members running up to their constituencies in feverish haste to find out their requirements, that despite our personal and collective endeavours to keep in touch with our constituents, we passed as a House regulations which were met, instantly, with the greatest outburst of indignation it is possible to imagine? It came about because in my opinion this House a year ago parted with its responsibility for framing these regulations. The proposal did not, and could not, emanate from this House, because it was in touch with public opinion. We opposed that Bill, and said that if the Government made this divorce between responsibility and the Executive they did so at the peril of our representative institutions. That is the position at which we have arrived. It is idle now to say who is responsible, whether it is the board, the Members of the Government or the Minister. The regulations were laid on the Table of the House in accordance with the Act passed by this House, and every hon. Member who voted for the Bill must carry his individual share of responsibility.

So it is with the regulations. What amazed me most about the happenings of last month was not the outcry of the public at the effect of the regulations, but the surprise of hon. Members that there should be an outcry. The House voted for the regulations. It was not an accident of the administration. These reductions were inherent in the case itself. Hon. Members could work them out for themselves, and form an idea as to how they would affect the people in their divisions. My hon. Friend the Member for Spennymoor and I who represent an area in Durham which in the main is a low rental area, and which has known unemployment for a number of years, when we saw these scales, came definitely to the conclusion that in our area the people must come down under them. It was open for every hon. Member to make the same comparison for his division. The lesson which these events should carry to those who are responsible for any share in our public life is that we have developed too far the system when an hon. Member can divest himself of personal responsibility and plead, as we have heard hon. Members plead, that they were led to believe by the Government and by the statements of the Minister. We can carry that too far; to the peril of our institutions in which we all believe. We are grateful that the Bill is going to restore the cuts to the unemployed.

There are several lessons to be learned from this legislation. The Parliamentary Secretary referred to the public assistance scales which are going to be restored. The old regulations are to be set on one side and the scales previously adopted by public assistance committees are to be applied. That means the withdrawal of the position which the Government have always taken up, that public assistance scales were lacking in uniformity and that uniformity must be established. That admission from the Parliamentary Secretary is an admission of the fundamental error in central organisation; and it carries two lessons. In the first place, it carries the lesson that you cannot administer these large human affairs from a central organisation, and, secondly, that you cannot set up with public approbation and work with public contentment any scheme of centralised Socialism in this land. This is the first lesson of the first attempt to impose a centralised organisation and administration on the home life. It has been rejected out of hand by the people. The Bill, in my view, is a complete withdrawal of the fundamental principles of the Act of 1934. It shows that it is wrong to divorce executive authority from Parliament to set up a board and to delegate powers formerly vested in Parliament to an outside body. That is a fundamental error. It also proves, and here I speak for myself alone, that we cannot work in this country a household means test. There are three means test which are possible—a family means test, which is the basis of our Poor Law, a household means test, which has been tried now for some years and which obviously cannot work, and an individual means test; that is to say, a means test which you apply to the applicant himself and his resources, and you do not mix him up with anybody in the household.

The hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. K. Lindsay) talked about the economic unit of the family. It is right that sons should be responsible for fathers. I suggest that if you give to a man and wife an allowance of 24s. or 26s. for their maintenance you do not destroy the sense of responsibility in their sons who may be working. By the household means test you say to the household as a whole that the sons must contribute, and to the extent that they contribute the parents will not derive benefit, while the board escapes responsibility. You discourage the son who is outside by making it impossible for him to contribute to the maintenance of his family, because everything is taken away by those who carry on the administration. You must abolish the household means test and set in its place the individual means test.

The temper and spirit of the nation is becoming very exhausted over the handling by Parliament under this Government of the unemployment problem. Unemployment has been with us for 10 or 12 years. It has been the bugbear of every succeeding Government. The trouble of the present Government was the trouble of hon. Members above the Gangway in their Government of 1929–31. The previous Conservative Government was thrown out with contumely in 1929. Every Government successively has found this question the one question that seems to baffle them. This last experience, with such an uprising of public opinion behind it and such a desire in every part of the House to treat fairly the men and women who are unemployed, seems to me to be giving us an opportunity of forgetting our party differences for a little while. I would suggest that the time may be ripe when some all-party conference might be called to consider once and for all how to get an agreed plan upon which the future administration of this vexed question might be carried on. It seems to me that public opinion is tiring of vacillation, vacillation in face of this problem, and tiring of inability to find a solution. I think, however, that our adversity gives us a great opportunity of proving by our action and our co-operation that the love among our unfortunate fellow people is greater than the rivalry among our political parties.

7.53 p.m.

I have listened with great interest to the Debate to-day, and I heard with particular interest the suggestions of my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. K. Lindsay). They were very useful suggestions which he made to the Minister. I noted the speech of the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan), in which he talked about the assessment of the means of the family. I agreed with a great deal of what he said and also with much that was said by the hon. Member who has just sat down. I think that the earning members of the family should have a great deal more than they are allowed at the present time. I have said that on a great many occasions, and I repeat it now. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) could not resist the opportunity of making party capital out of the situation. He told us that the Minister made an extravagant claim when he introduced the regulations. I do not know that he made extravagant claims, but he did tell us what he really believed to be the honest truth, and that was that he thought that in the majority of cases the people would be better off under the regulations than they were before the regulations were introduced. That was what my right hon. Friend thought and believed and what he wished the House to believe. After a short experiment of the regulations he has been big enough to say that he has come to the conclusion that what he told the House at that time has not proved to be correct. Therefore, he was right to turn it down and to say that for the moment, at any rate, we will have a standstill order until new regulations are produced. I should like to congratulate my hon. Friend on his courage in being able to do a thing which it required a big man to do.

After having said that, I want to impress upon the House the fact that the situation that has arisen is not the fault of the board. The board made certain draft regulations, which were presented to the Minister. In Section 52 of the Unemployment Act, 1934, there is laid down exactly what the position is: and the Government for having brought forward these particular regulations, which have not worked.

Yes, the hon. Member is right. I did back the regulations and made a speech in support of them, because the scales under the regulations, as I understood them, were considerably higher than the scales of the Lancashire County Council. In certain cases they still are higher, and in other cases they are not. The chief cause of the trouble in Lancashire, or in my constituency, has to do with the deduction from the rent. I am going to appeal to my right hon. Friend on the question of rents, but in the first place I would ask him to state exactly the position of the new entrants, the people who are coming on to transitional payment. As I understand the position the new entrants, those coming in now, will have the same scale as the old public assistance scale, and in addition to that will have the extra allowances for earning members of the family, which will be above the Lancashire County Council scale, and the family will have the extra allowances for children. That is as I understand it.

If my hon. and gallant Friend thinks that we are going to take bits out of the one system and the other and add them together, he is wrong. We will either have the regulations more favourable or an applicant will be assessed as he would have been assessed if he had come under public assistance.

I understand from the remarks of my right hon. Friend that if the public assistance scale is the higher scale the applicant will get that, that is to say if the transitional payment is higher. If on the other hand the amount under the new regulations is the higher he will get that. That is the position. What is going to happen will be this: In certain places one will wash out the other. In certain cases where the children's allowance was 2s. under the old scale and it was raised by the new regulations, the total amount going into a household will be lowered again by the rent, and they will be in exactly the same position as before. I think that that is going to happen. Could not the Minister give instructions to the board to wash out as far as possible all questions of rents? The reason why I ask that is that I want him to do the same thing as the Durham Commissioners did. In their report, on page 7, the Durham Commissioners say this about the rents:

Then I wish to ask my right hon. Friends why Clause 2 is necessary. The Clause postpones the second appointed day, with the result that the local authorities have to keep those who require assistance on the Poor Law instead of bringing them under the new regulations upon the appointed day. Would it not be very much easier not to have Clause 2 in the Bill? The Clause postpones the appointed day, that is 1st March. Would it not be easier, in order not to have later to reimburse the local authorities with the money which they will have to expend in outdoor relief, to take over the able-bodied unemployed as described in the Act and pay for them through the board, and to use the public assistance committees which exist for assessing the amount which they are to have? In that way the money will come from the central fund, that is where it was expected to come from, instead of having to come from the local authorities in the first place and then the local authorities having to be reimbursed by the Government later.

I have urged the Minister on many occasions to keep in touch with the public assistance committees. I hope that during this transitional period, while the whole question is being examined, he will as far as he can use the people who have great knowledge locally of the conditions in their areas. He has the power to set up these local committees, and I hope that he will use the members of the old public assistance committees to help him in assessing the needs of the applicants. What appears to me to be wrong with the regulations themselves is that they are not nearly elastic enough. We were told that they were elastic up to a point. There are only two regulations, right at the end, which give any sort of elasticity. I do hope that when the new regulations are being drafted there will be far more elasticity and latitude given to the officials of the Ministry when they are making assessments. The regulations seem to be far too rigid, and as a consequence all sorts of people who it was never anticipated would have their assessment reduced have had it reduced.

I want to congratulate the Minister on his courage in this matter and to appeal to the House not to make any party capital out of this business. We are trying to help all the unfortunate people who are unemployed. We do not want to make party capital out of the question. We want to put this thing right and the sooner it is done the better it will be for all concerned.

8.12 p.m.

I am afraid I cannot hope, as the last speaker hoped, that no party capital will be made out of this mistake, because so long as there is party government in this country it is only natural that the party out of office should make what capital it can out of the mistake of the party or the coalition parties in office. As regards the blame for the mistake that has been made during the last few weeks, whether it is due to the board or the Minister, or the Cabinet, I think it is fairly obvious to all of us who are honest about it that the blame lies at the door of those who voted for the regulations. I was one of those who voted for the regulations and I take my share of the blame. I do not intend and do not want to pass it on to the Minister or the Cabinet.

But I say this in my own defence: When the regulations were being discussed in this House, the right hon. Gentleman who leads the Opposition moved to report Progress, and seeing that I represented a division which was not very greatly affected by the regulations, being almost purely residential, I listened very carefully to all the instances quoted by the depressed areas, and it struck me, after having read the proposed regulations, that they might not work as well as we hoped they would. So when the Leader of the Opposition moved to report Progress it seemed to me a splendid opportunity for those who supported the Government to take the chance offered to consider the regulations and not to be too hasty in bringing them into operation. I went into the same Lobby as the Leader of the Opposition in the hope that we might get more time to consider the regulations. However, as that Motion was not successful, after further consideration of the regulations and after listening to the expert views of the Front Bench, I fell into the trap that seemingly other Members who supported the Government fell into, and voted for those regulations to come into force.

But because I fell into that trap, I am not going to try to put the blame on any board or Minister. When the time comes I shall take whatever blame is laid upon me and do my best to meet it, but now we have an opportunity, I think, of putting right whatever mistake has been made. We have now an opportunity, coming from the Government side, of doing what I still believe would have happened to us if the Motion of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition to which I have referred had been adopted. This will give us time now to consider the effect of these regulations, and I hope it will give us further time to see that the next set of regulations is better than those that we are now putting on one side.

It is clear, without any higgling over words or phrases, that by our introduction of this Bill we are scrapping those regulations. We are satisfied now that they will not work as we wanted them to work, because, in spite of what may be said by my friends or enemies, if I have any, on this side of the House, there was a genuine desire throughout the House, when those regulations were being discussed, to help those unfortunate people who were out of employment or who needed public assistance. There is no doubt in my mind that throughout the House there was that genuine feeling. There seem to have been differences here and there as to how much money should be allowed to meet that end. It strikes me now, when I look back, that there was a rather niggardly feeling throughout the House on the side which I support, and I think that my remark is substantiated by what the Minister of Labour now proposes to do, because, as I read the provisions of this short Bill, there is no intention whatever of making any person worse off when the Bill becomes law than he was before. If that be so, it seems to me that the Government now publicly admit that those regulations did not carry out the wishes of this House, and I say that among other Members of this House I was willing to go as far as we possibly could to make the lot of these unfortunate people as bearable as possible.

Like many other Members of this House, I have not had the experience of having to go a day without food, except during the War, when once or twice I had to live on my iron ration. That was nothing much, and it was a thing which we all expected and none of us enjoyed, but I am referring to that type of poverty that I have seen some of my ex-comrades of the Army enduring in Lancashire. If anything would drive me to be a Communist it would be to have to endure some of the things that I have seen in Lancashire, on some of those coalfields, since the War ended. It was my entry into politics 13 years ago that first really brought me into contact with the conditions under which some of these people have to live, and when I hear people solemnly discussing how many calories it takes to keep a man alive and how much should be expended on this and on that, I really believe that if I had not had that experience of seeing how these people live, I would have done as they usually do in the courts. I would have balanced the expert on one side against the expert on the other. But there is always this strange thing that you find when you have spent a few years in the courts, that whenever you have an expert on one side, if you have money enough you can find one to say almost directly the opposite on the other. It may be an accident, of course—I do not mean that it is deliberately done—but even in medical testimony I have noticed that when you get a powerful company on one side, with great funds, they can usually get three times the number of medical gentlemen to say the direct opposite of what has been said by the unfortunate medical gentleman who appears for the poor person on the other side.

I am afraid there has been a little of that with people who have been discussing the basis of subsistence for the gentleman who is forced, through no fault of his own, to seek public assistance, whether it be called "public assistance" or the other fancy name for it, "transitional benefit." It seems to me that if you want to find out a basis on which to work, the best thing to do is to go to those millions of Chancellors of the Exchequer who live in our homes in England. When I first began to discuss the question, for example, that cropped up under Part II some months ago, on the Motion of the Junior Member for Bolton (Sir J. Haslam), as regards whether we should allow 2s. or 3s. to help keep a child, I turned to my own private Chancellor, my wife. She is bringing up two children—they are hers and mine—but she has the laying out of the money on their behalf, and I asked her if she thought she could possibly bring up a child on 2s. a week. She immediately said, "No." Then I asked her to consider it from the point of view of the workpeople who used to work in her father's mills in Lancashire, people whom she knew. Even if some of us have made money, we do not forget our friends who have not. She visited the houses of those employés and knew them well and the circumstances in which they lived. I asked her if she thought it was possible for a mother in those circumstances to bring up one of those children on an allowance of 2s. or 3s. a week. She considered the problem and told me that in her opinion it was impossible to do so on less than 4s. a week.

There was nothing extravagant about that. She was not judging their circumstances by the circumstances of her own children, but after consideration she gave me that opinion. There was no question of calories there. It was a question there of practical experience, and that, I think, is what has been wrong from the very outset in the way in which we have tackled this problem of unemployment assistance. We have got away too much, I am afraid, from the local people in each area, who know the circumstances, who understand the needs of that area, and who, therefore, are best entitled to judge what are the needs of the families in the area. That is why, although I am prone to agree with centralisation as regards funds—I like to see control from Whitehall as regards funds—when it comes to a question of deciding how much should go into a particular family where there is need for assistance, I would much rather see that determination made by people on the spot, as it was done in the old days by the boards of guardians.

I am afraid that is the fault of the administration that has been taking place in the last few weeks. We have rather got out of touch with local needs. There does not seem to have been that sympathy shown that was shown in the old days, in pre-war days, by the boards of guardians, and I really hope that if new regulations are framed—and I hope they will be framed—there will be more opportunity given to those who have to administer the assistance for more sympathetic and elastic treatment, more consideration of each case on its individual merits. I do not think it is possible—in fact I think it is inhuman—to try to deal with these cases on any uniform system, on any foot-rule principle. It is much better to give some latitude to the local area, and let your control be, as regards the total amount, from Whitehall.

In conclusion, in spite of all that has been said about these regulations, this new experiment by the new Minister of Labour, I admire him for one thing. I am not sure whether he is a Lancashire man or not, but I know his father is very highly respected in Lancashire, and we all admire the right hon. Gentleman for this, that as soon as the mistake was found out, he did not try to throw the blame on me, who supported him in the Lobby; he did not try to throw the blame on the board; he manfully stood up to it and faced the music, and he is trying his best to put it right, and I for one will do my best to help him.

8.25 p.m.

I do not desire to recapitulate what I had occasion to say when the regulations were before the House or to emphasise at this juncture what was said by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood). I have been under no illusions about the regulations or about the Act which was placed on the Statute Book last year. We were all pleased to hear from the statement of the hon. and learned Member for Withington (Mr. Fleming) that he has sufficient courage to face up to his own observations, and I trust that every Member supporting the Government will do likewise. I have no desire to pass any reflection on the board for I consider the Government are entirely responsible for what has happened and that they must take the responsibility. It has seemed to me that from the very beginning the Government were determined to give to the unemployed a very raw deal. They started off in their economy Measure by depriving them of £60,000,000, and, in addition, they began to apply a means test for the first time in the history of the country to unemployment insurance. A figure published in reply to a question put by the hon. Member for Chester-le-Street (Mr. Lawson) shows that the means test extracted £17,000,000 from the unemployed during the last three years. The Government, I am sure, were determined, if they failed to reduce the figures of the unemployed, to reduce the amount of money that was being spent upon them.

That was the amount extracted by the operation of the means test, and it disregards the 10 per cent. cut applied to unemployment benefit and transitional payment. That is the enormous amount of money that has been taken from these unfortunate people by the Government during the last three years. That being a known fact to every Member and to most of the intelligent people who take an interest in politics, it would be very difficult to conclude that in introducing a new Measure into Parliament the Government were automatically becoming compassionate and considerate towards the unemployed. We doubted their intentions when they proposed the Act of July of last year, and we opposed Part II from the very beginning. We opposed the regulations when they came to the House. We were obliged either to accept or to reject them and we voted against them, but the majority of Members accepted them, and to that extent every individual Member must accept his responsibility.

What we on this side said when the Act was before the House and when the regulations were being debated has been proved to be correct in every detail. I have no desire to stress that further, but as I come from South Wales, where we have been confronted with this terrible scourge for many years, I am obliged to cite what is taking place. On Sunday last I addressed four large mass meetings. One was an enormous demonstration composed of all the Sunday schools in one of the large valleys in my constituency. Many thousands of people were congregated in the open air in a park and the Sunday schools were suspended for the afternoon. They marched to this park, and on the platform with me were ministers of the Gospel of all denominations and of the Churches both Catholic and Anglican, expressing their indignation against the regulations. Nothing will satisfy the people who were present at that meeting, and at the other meetings which I addressed in Rhondda and Maesteg, except the complete withdrawal of the regulations. They will not be satisfied with the stand-still order or with a condition of affairs which contains the inherent principle that the people who have suffered most through unemployment must be made to pay the greatest price.

It is inhuman and wrong in essence, and no person who has a human regard for these people would endeavour to countenance that principle for a moment. Nor would he countenance the principle that sons and fathers who work hard in mine or workshop, in factory or shop, or mothers in receipt of war pensions, or persons in receipt of disability pensions for injuries sustained in the War should have to make contributions towards this problem. It is a principle that those engaged in industry should sustain a reduction in wages and those who suffered in the War a reduction in their pensions, in order to maintain the unemployed who are rendered idle through causes over which they have no control. But the regulations embody that principle. Their application meant that if a miner were working and there was in his household an out-of-work father or brother, that perhaps 50 per cent., and in many instances 75 per cent., of his earnings were taken from him to be thrown into the family pool in order to maintain the family. I do not at this stage desire to speak vehemently about this matter, but no one can construe this as other than a direct attack on the wage standards of those in industry. It means that 1,100,000 people who are in fact the unemployed of this country—if they were intermittently employed they would fall under Part I, but because they are unemployed they come under Part II and consequently under the board—are to be maintained from the low wage standards of those engaged in industry.

I believe this thing was cleverly designed—very cleverly designed. Whoever is at the back of these machinations, it is a dreadful piece of political ingenuity. Yet those are the principles underlying the regulations, and, as far as we can ascertain, those principles are to be perpetuated. Naturally there can be no indication in this Bill that the Government intend to withdraw the regulations entirely. At the moment they are just appeasing the indignation that is so evident, particularly in industrial constituencies. Frankly, I think the Government found themselves in a situation in which, if they had not brought in the stand-still order, they would have been faced with revolution. I trust I am not using exaggerated language. Because the uprising is not from any political party. I would have my political opponents believe that. I have evidence which could be submitted to the House to show that the protests have come from all kinds of religious and commercial organisations. Practically every religious organisation throughout South Wales is at the back of the protest, because they realise that there is something of an ethical nature at issue here, that there was an attack on the family life and that members of the family were leaving home. They have submitted to me concrete evidence of it. In any case they felt that the evidence they had warranted them taking the action which they did, and without their feelings having been fanned by any political party. I would welcome Members of this House into my constituency next Sunday and the following Sunday if they desire to be convinced that there is no political bias whatever in this agitation.

I will not go so far as to suggest that the movement is in the hon. Member's constituency, but does he deny the existence of a nation-wide movement known as the United Front Movement, which is organised and financed by and receives its inspiration from the Communist Movement in this country?

I do not think an answer to that question would be within the scope of this Debate.

The hon. Member will appreciate that after that Ruling I cannot reply, but I am very much aware of what he says, perhaps much more aware than he is. The Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary will recall what was said by a deputation which met them at Montagu House a week or two ago. The deputation comprised representatives of trade unions, county councils and very many organisations from South Wales, and I will just summarise the problem as they put it and the proposals they made. They suggested, first, that as the regulations largely applied to persons who have exhausted standard benefit, owing to long periods of unemployment, the scale of allowances should be at least equal to the scale of standard benefit. Secondly, they suggested that in arriving at the available resources of the household a much larger proportion of the earnings of members of the household should be excluded. I can give concrete examples of how that would apply in Glamorganshire. Thirdly, they proposed that the basic rent of 7s. 6d. should be reduced, and that a provision for arriving at a fictitious rent by taking one-fourth of the provisional determination should be withdrawn, saying this provision was specially unfair to persons with large families. Fourthly, they suggested that only the actual net income from property or investments should be included in the resources of the household, because the present provision is a serious blow to thrift and will cause great losses through forced sales of property in depressed areas. Fifthly, they pointed out that persons with disability pensions in respect of injuries received in the service of the country are allowed to disregard £1 a week, whereas the man injured in the service of industry was allowed to disregard only half his weekly compensation with a maximum of 15s. and asked why there should be such a difference.

I have a series of figures showing the periods of unemployment of persons in South Wales over a number of years. The number of insured workers in South Wales is 250,310, and the total unemployed 80,661. Of these, 9,356, or 11.6 per cent., have been idle over five years; 16,454, or 20.4 per cent., have been idle over four years; 28,473, or 35.3 per cent., over three years; 44,203, or 54.8 per cent., over two years; 59,689, or 75 per cent., over one year; and 21,971, or 26 per cent. less than one year. That is the problem confronting South Wales.

I wish to place before the Minister a further point in regard to the second appointed day. This must obviously cause a great deal of hardship to local authorities. The County Councils' Association has taken up this matter, and I have a statement here, which I do not desire to read because that would occupy time in which other Members wish to speak. I think I should, however, place before the House a considered statement that we have received from the Glamorgan County Council on this important point. The statement says:

We welcome the Bill and its financial provisions, and we welcome the statement that was made by the Parliamentary Secretary in his opening speech which removes any ambiguity which may have been in the minds of hon. Members with regard to this matter. On the other hand, we desire to stress from these benches that any new regulations introduced into this House that contains the household means test will place these unfortunate people upon the shoulders of other members of the family who are in work when they ought legitimately to be placed upon the State, whose shoulders should be sufficiently broad to bear the burden—a burden not of the creation of the unemployed but arising from the economics of this order and a failure of this system to engage those who fall into the labour market. Those who have been idle for long periods should not be expected to suffer this injustice in perpetuity. We hope, therefore, that there will be some kind of amending legislation that by implication will suspend, if not entirely remove, Part II of the Act. In any case, the means test, so far as we are concerned, will be fought to the bitter end, and after their experiences in their own constituencies I hope that we shall have the support of other hon. Members.

8.51 p.m.

I desire to refer to two points in regard to Clause 2, one of which has been referred to by the hon. Member for Ogmore (Mr. E. Williams). The Parliamentary Secretary made a very brief and vague reference to the results which this Clause has had upon local authorities, but we want to hear a good deal more of that. We have to make sure that the local authorities do not suffer owing to the deferment of the appointed day. It will be remembered that it was originally intended that the appointed day should be 1st October last year and when it was postponed from that date the county councils stated during the negotiations between the County Councils Association and the Government that their financial arrangements had been made on the assumption that 1st October was the date on which the Act would come into force. The appointed day was postponed to 1st March and the County Councils Associa- tion protested very strongly against that postponement on the ground that that was not in accordance with the agreement reached between them and the Government.

Now we are told that the date is further postponed. The first postponement cost the county councils £248,000, because 42 of them out of 61, I am informed, based their estimates on the idea that this was coming into force on 1st October. Hon. Members will realise the very embarrassing position in which the county councils were placed when the date was altered; now it is proposed that the date shall be postponed after 1st March. I do not feel that we can resist the proposal, but I ask the Minister to make the postponement as short as possible and to give us an absolutely definite promise in this House to-night that he will see that the local authorities shall not suffer financially from the postponement, and that no extra burden is placed upon the ratepayers.

The second point I wish to raise is in regard to agricultural workers. We were told that agricultural workers would come under this Bill on 1st March; they would come off the Poor Law and under the Bill, and we were looking forward to that. Now that benefit is postponed by Clause 2 of the Bill. I wish to urge on the Minister that the appointed day in this respect should come in as short a time as he can possibly manage.

8.54 p.m.

It seems to me that almost everything has been said that can be said in this discussion. I can quite well understand that the Official Opposition take a natural pleasure in pointing out who is to be blamed and who is not to be blamed for what has happened. But when one hears some of the things that are said, one might believe that there was some wicked Government absolutely determined to make the conditions of the unemployed worse than ever, whereas, the moment it was discovered that the regulations which had been framed were not working satisfactorily, the Minister came down to the House and, in the most generous and straightforward manner, withdrew them. He made it amply clear that the Government intended to carry out what had always been the intention of the House, namely, to improve, at any rate not to worsen, the conditions of the unemployed.

Like the hon. Member who sits for Spennymoor (Mr. Batey), who represents me so ably in Parliament, I come from the county of Durham, and I know just as well as he does the conditions that prevail there. In our part of the world, and in other distressed areas, the conditions, after so many years of unemployment, are such that people literally have no resources left to them, and, therefore, I have always maintained that regulations for the administration of transitional payments in such areas should be adapted to local conditions and not made so absolutely uniform as were the regulations as they were originally drawn up. Obviously, local people should be consulted in the framing of such regulations, for they alone know the conditions and can appreciate them. In areas like Durham and the North-East coast generally, you cannot have exactly the same rules as in places which are more fortunate. It seems to me that what was wrong in the regulations which have now been withdrawn was that they were not nearly flexible enough. If the administrative system under the Act is to be made satisfactory, the new regulations must be adapted to local needs and the putting of them into practice must be less rigid than has been the case hitherto. I should like the Minister to bear in mind, when he brings forward new regulations, that this House should be given a far longer opportunity of studying them than it had before. It may be said, as I think was suggested by the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Curry), that the House of Commons resigned its powers over the administration of transitional payments by passing the Act of 1934. I do not agree in the least with this suggestion. The regulations will have to be approved by this House, and obviously they will have to be much more closely examined than before.

He knows a good deal more than that. If the regulations are not satisfactory, I am con- vinced of one thing, and that is that the House will not accept them. We are determined that the new regulations shall be made satisfactory, because the object of the Act is that the conditions of the unemployed shall be better than they were before.

Is not the hon. and gallant Member aware that we reminded hon. Members of the Very fact that he is now stating, and yet he went into the Lobby and voted against us?

I am not altogether sure that if the hon. Member told me something, I should naturally take it for granted. But I am sure that any mistake we made in voting for the regulations was a mistake that anybody might have made who was not a political opponent of the Government and prepared to oppose everything that it proposed. What I want the House to bear in mind is that, if we are going to make a success of the scheme for the unemployed as laid down in the Act, and that is what we all have at heart, we must not be carried away too much by sentiment. We must not forget that the money for those who axe out of work comes primarily from those who are employed. We have to preserve a sense of proportion, as I am sure hon. Members will agree, and not be entirely carried away because we sympathise with the sad conditions in which some of our people are living. Those of us who live in the North of England are only too familiar with these conditions, and I want all my hon. Friends on this side of the House to realise that we at any rate who come from the distressed areas are determined that the lot of the people in those areas shall be improved as far as is possible.

I listened with great interest to the speech of the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan), and was much impressed by a good deal that he said, especially regarding the family maintenance problem. I do not know how far it may be possible for the Minister to deal with this problem, but it seems to me that members of families who are in work are asked, perhaps, to do more for each other than is sometimes wholly fair or reasonable, and therefore, if any change can be made to lighten their burden, I, for one, should be glad to see it made. Again, I consider that the reduction, at any rate in my part of the world, of the amount which a married couple with no children get from 26s. to 24s. is hard, and impossible to justify in an area where unemployment has been so prevalent for so long a time. I also think that the whole system of administration should be much more localized than it is under the present arrangements made by the board. I should like to see some such administrative scheme as that suggested by the hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. K. Lindsay), that is to say, a scheme in which there would be some central authority representing the board, who, with local knowledge, could give decisions there and then, for I do not much believe in the effectiveness of the appeal tribunals. I think that they are a little cumbersome, and it is very awkward for people to understand how their point of view can be put before them. I hope and believe that the Minister will carry through his new regulations, but not until there has been a much closer consideration of all the problems than there has been, and not until the advice of local people has been taken. As a matter of curiosity, I should like very much to know whether the commissioners in Durham were ever consulted by the board before these regulations were framed? Here I should like to say something which I feel it is only just that I should say. When the hon. Member for Spennymoor accused the commissioners in Durham of beating down the people to the last farthing—

I do not believe it is true. I know from experience that the administration of the commissioners was just and fair, and was generally appreciated as such by the people in the county.

Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that the commissioners saved £300,000 a year out of our people?

They did nothing of the kind. What they did was to carry out their difficult duties in a perfectly honest and straightforward way, which gave satisfaction to the people, and, as I live in Durham, I know what I am talking about. I know what the feeling was, and I know what the political attacks made upon the commissioners were; but I can assure the House that these gentlemen carried out their task most admirably in the interests of the community as a whole, and were generally popular with the people. After all, the people of the North of England, like the people anywhere else in England, prize justice and fair play, and that is what the commissioners meted out to the people of Durham. If the commissioners are attacked, I would ask, who was responsible for there being commissioners in Durham at all?

No; it was the public assistance committee in the county of Durham. However, these are local affairs, and I do not wish to deal with them any further in the House; but, as I live in Durham, and have seen what the commissioners did there and how well they carried out their work, it was not for me to listen to what the hon. Member said without making my protest.

9.5 p.m.

The speeches that we have heard from supporters of the Government must make very interesting reading if one harks back to the discussions when the regulations were under consideration. The last speaker has admitted that they might have made a mistake in supporting the Government, but said that they were mistakes which could not really have been seen at the moment and that experience was necessary before they could see how colossally unjust and stupid the regulations were. May I remind them that single men over 18 years of age were expected to live, in the absence of all resources, on anything between 8s. and 10s. a week. Are we to understand that it was necessary for this terrific turmoil and indignation to express itself in the country before the Government and their supporters could understand that no single man can live a decent life on from 8s. to 10s. a week? It was assumed that there was no one at work within the household. If the young man's parents were alive, the maximum that they could receive would be 24s. a week. Does any supporter of the Government believe that a household where the parents only receive 24s. a week could in any way make a contribution towards the support of that single man?

It is insincere and hypocritical on the part of the Government and its supporters to plead now, when they have had the wind up pretty badly over these protests in the country, that they made a number of innocent mistakes in voting for a string of regulations and figures that they could not understand and could not interpret, that they innocently persuaded themselves that a single man could live on 8s. to 10s. a week. The last speaker is associated with Durham. Did he expect any helpful contribution to come through the rent formula as far as the mass of the unemployed in Durham are concerned? We cannot be impressed by these pleadings, which has been inspired not by any sympathy with the unemployed but by the terrific uprising and indignation which do not belong to any particular political party. I find it extremely difficult to forgive what has been done against the unemployed. I cannot persuade myself that the hundreds who went into the Division Lobby in support of these scales and regulations did it in complete ignorance. If they did, they had better be left to their constituents to deal with.

As far as this temporary Measure is concerned, I cannot see how the Government are going to smooth matters over at all. It is a muddle from beginning to end. There are different scales for assessing needs, different criteria, one presumably the old Poor Law practice and the other the one that is still laid down in the regulations. I do not know how they propose to establish uniformity out of a muddle of that kind, and I cannot be persuaded that, as long as the means test is perpetuated in this Bill, strangers, servants of the Government, who know nothing of the conditions, and may be out of sympathy with the people, largely because of lack of understanding, are going to administer the Bill with any measure of satisfaction to the unemployed. I wonder if those who supported the regulations and scales failed to understand how the means test applied to those who were in employment. I doubt the sincerity of that burst of indignation that came from the Government Benches to-day because certain young men had been compelled to leave their homes by the administration of these regulations.

May I remind the House what the regulations mean to young men who may be in employment? The average wage for an adult miner in South Wales is approximately £2 a week. There might be only one member of a household in employment and two or three or more unemployed. The Government told that young miner that he was expected to keep himself in a condition of physical well-being, so that he could go on the morrow to do the same kind of hard work that he had done to-day, on about 19s. 8d. or £1 1s. 8d. per week. What miner could do that? Hon. Members opposite pretended to be horrified that young men were driven from home by the application of conditions of that kind. It so happens that gentlemen who protest against instances of that kind are generally persons who know the minimum about work and practically nothing about hard work. That is how the scales operated.

I have seen in the short period—and I can give chapter and verse of a number of these cases—that these scales and regulations have been in operation, numerous young men being driven from their homes. There was no alternative short of considerable, if not complete destitution. I have seen single men deprived of every halfpenny of support under this Act, driven into premature marriage with young women also unfortunately circumstanced like themselves. It is all very well to protest with apparent righteous indignation against incidents of that kind, but, if the Government evolve such a machine and operate it, results of this kind are inevitable. Are the Government sincere as far as the treatment of young men under these regulations are concerned? Frankly, I am driven to the conclusion that a deliberate plot has been hatched against the young single men. This House knows that no single man can live on 10s. or 8s. or on a smaller income than that. What did the Government expect those young men to do? First of all, they were driven down to partial starvation. Was the deliberate purpose, I wonder, in the mind of the Government first to drive these men into a condition of despair?

We all know that Part II of the Act makes provision for employment camps, that is, lays down the machinery for the mobilisation and the concentration of these single men. Was it definitely in the mind of the Government that these men might be used for the purpose of wage cutting in this country? It is all very well for the Government to protest that we are not justified in making inferences of that kind, but you are deliberately driving the young men down to a condition of absolute despair and stripping them economically of all means of support.

I think that when the hon. Gentleman is making accusations of that kind, it may be well for him to remember that his speech should be addressed to the Chair.

I am sorry; I beg your pardon. I hope that you will accept my apology, because I am perfectly sincere. It was the result of my inexperience in this House, and I will do all I can in the future to obey your Ruling. I have tried to put these questions to the Government through you, Sir. It is not that I or any other Member of the House derives any pleasure from entertaining any unhappy thoughts whether with respect to the Government or anyone else, but I must say that the Government have laid themselves open to charges of that kind. It was a most inhuman thing on their part to lay down in black and white and to make it the law of this country, that single men should be expected to live on 10s. or 8s., or even on a lesser income. I repeat that the young man would only receive his 10s. or 8s. subject to there being no resources over and above the figures laid down in the scales with respect to parents or any other member of the family. There must have been some ulterior motive in the minds of the people responsible for laying down conditions like that.

Would the hon. Member attribute the same answer either to the Socialist London County Council or the Socialist Council in Glasgow which have laid down the same scale of 10s.?

Probably that question can best be answered by representatives from those areas, but, if the right hon. Gentleman had directed his question to the Poor Law scales which obtain in the Borough of Merthyr Tydvil, there would have been a very good answer. It is rather surprising that the right hon. Gen- tleman did not direct his question as far as Merthyr Tydvil was concerned, because the right hon. Gentleman has, with other speakers representing the Government, attempted to make very great capital out of the alleged unredeemable type of individual responsible for the administration of public assistance within the Borough of Merthyr Tydvil. I do not think that Merthyr Tydvil feels very thankful about it, but a considerable amount of attention has been focussed upon that unfortunate area probably because it may have been a very easy place, with conditions such as they are, to be misrepresented. I happened to know that 10s. was being paid to a single man by the Merthyr Tydvil Public Assistance Committee, but it was a figure that had been forced upon them. There is not a member of that public assistance committee who would have admitted for a moment that a single man, in the absence of any other helpful resources, should live on 10s. a week. But they were the enforced scales in one of the most distressed areas in the country, and, if more resources were available, the members of that public assistance committee would have treated their people far more generously than they were permitted to do.

The Minister and other spokesmen on behalf of the Government have not done justice to the administration of the means test in connection with transitional payments as far as Merthyr Tydvil and the Glamorgan County Council are concerned. The reason why the means test bore so little fruit in my area was that there were, and there are, no resources there. After 10 years of large-scale unemployment in a small pocket borough of that kind, with figures of unemployment varying between 10,000, 12,000 and 13,000, with most of the industries closed down, there were no resources, and you could not, without being most inhuman, squeeze anything out of it by the application of the means test. I say that most sincerely, and I would like the Minister to visit that area. There is plenty of objective evidence that that is not the place to apply the means test with street after street of shops closed down, bankruptcy after bankruptcy—scores of them during the last seven, eight, and 10 years of men of the second, third and fourth generation in the same business; people driven into mental hos- pitals, and driven to commit suicide. Those were the conditions under which the public assistance committee were asked to apply the means test.

I appeal to the Minister to consider more critically this Bill. I say deliberately, deriving no pleasure from the saying, that the indignation that has been expressed throughout the country during the last few weeks will boil up once again, for you have all the means test paraphernalia in this short Bill. I would like the Minister to consider whether or not in the Bill, among other things—for example, in the proviso on page 2, commencing with the word "unless"—it is proposed that a rigid bureaucratic means test shall be applied. The Minister shakes his head, and I do sincerely hope I am wrong. I am sure the Minister desires that what I am afraid of will not happen, but I must appeal to him to consider very seriously what construction can be placed on that qualification in the paragraph once it comes to be administered. In conclusion, I want to emphasise that unless there is an appreciable change in this Measure, there is certainly going to be the same trouble as we have experienced already. I am going to appeal to the Minister to examine this small Measure more closely and make sure there will not be any possibility of those determinations being reduced, unless there is a fundamental change in the circumstances of the individual or the family of that individual.

9.30 p.m.

If imputation of motives and the use of full-blooded adjectives constitute a good speech in this House, then the hon. Member who has just resumed his seat has made a very effective contribution to our Debate this evening. He suggested that there was a dark plot engineered by the Government, that there was bad faith on the part of the Government, and that there was some malignant purpose in view for starving the young men of this country for an ulterior object which he did not specify. Not satisfied with that, he ventured to make an attack on the supporters of the Government and their good faith, referring to their lack of perspicacity and knowledge, even of arithmetic, and generally told us that in expressing our regret at what had taken place we were guilty of bad faith. Any hon. Member in this House must be the final judge of his own standards of courtesy in debate, but I hope that a longer term in this House will show the hon. Member the wisdom of giving to others that same degree of sincerity in conviction as he claims for himself.

The hon. Member suggested that many of us had changed our attitude to this Bill because of the uprising of public opinion. I am one of those who have changed their point of view. I am not ashamed to state that, and I am not blaming the Government. A great many things have been said about this Measure, but I do insist and emphasise the statement I made before, that along with Members of the Government and the majority of its supporters we honestly believed that the new Act would make the conditions, generally speaking, of those under Part II, better off than before where previous regulations had been properly administered. That was our honest belief, and if the hon. Member tells me he does not accept my statement, he must draw his own conclusions, but that does not affect its accuracy. If the hon. Member has anything coherent to say I will listen to it, but I do not understand his mutterings.

I was one of those who, as soon as information was received, not of demonstrations in the country but of facts, immediately brought them to the notice of the House of Commons. The result of representations made to the Government from all quarters of the House we are considering this evening, but to hear some Members opposite speak one would imagine the Government had not admitted any mistake having been made, and had decided to adhere to the regulations issued on 7th January. There has been nothing to-day in any way chivalrous in the attitude of the Opposition. It is rather unfortunate that we should dispense with the ordinary chivalries of debate in the House of Commons. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour, in the Debate a week ago, got up and, from my point of view, and, in the general opinion of the House, made a manly speech in dealing with the situation which had arisen. The most effective passage of that speech was that neither dignity nor pride would prevent the Government from righting a wrong and taking proper and urgent steps to that end.

I welcome this standstill order for two reasons. First, I should have regretted very much had the Minister allowed himself to be stampeded into ill-considered or hasty action. My second reason is this, that the standstill order gives him time for full inquiry into the whole position, in order that the undoubted cases of hardship which many of us have brought before him will be inquired into and proper provision made for their redress. I consider that the House of Commons should be able in this vital matter to turn its eyes not to the past but to the future. In ordinary business life and social life if a man has made a mistake and admits it and has the power to put that mistake right, the average man, who is a man, does not spend hours pointing out the enormous blunder that he has made, and the dreadful consequences which have followed. I suggest that the Government have treated this whole question as it ought to have been treated, as a very human question and that there might have been a greater sense of appreciation shown of the Government's willingness to acknowledge that the regulations have not turned out as they expected, and their determination to see that regulations are produced which will prove satisfactory and fair to the recipients under the relief scales.

If we assume that the Government have made a mistake and that they are responsible, we must remember that Governments have made mistakes before in our history, and much greater mistakes than this. I suggest to His Majesty's Ministers that this is no occasion for the Government to sit in sackcloth and ashes. In all its reactions and repercussions this situation may turn out to be a blessing in disguise, because we shall all approach this subject now with a fuller knowledge and, incidentally, with a more critical examination. I feel certain that it would be a great blunder on the part of the Government to overrate the reactions of this particular event on their own fortunes in the country. They have a magnificent record of service to the country. The operation of the regulation is an unfortunate and regrettable occurrence, but it is no more than that in the great record of legislation which they have carried through, to the completion of which we are all looking forward.

There is one further observation that I should like to make. The hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) referred to double crossing between the Government and the Unemployment Assistance Board. It is very unfortunate that accusations of that kind should be made unless there is definite evidence in support of them. There are very few of us who are supporters of the Government who would be sitting here to-night if we accepted that ex-parte story about double crossing. It is our belief, rightly or wrongly, that the Government all through have acted in perfect good faith and that nothing was further from their minds than any kind of political action which would savour of bad faith. What they have had in mind was to confer upon the unemployed greater benefits than have been enjoyed by people who are unemployed through no fault of their own. There is one point on which I am in agreement with some previous speakers, and that is that in any new regulations which are compiled and issued, in any future policy of administration of relief scales, it will be perfectly hopeless if we attempt to divorce the administration from local knowledge of local needs. That must be the primary consideration. We all know, certainly in Scotland, of the long experience which the public assistance committees have had in administering relief, and unless there is a close liaison between the Unemployment Assistance Board and the public assistance committees, or the officials who represent the public assistance committees, further trouble may be in store. I should like again to congratulate my right hon. Friend upon the manner in which he has dealt with this intensely human problem, and I feel sure that there is no one who has greater sympathy with the unemployed or a greater desire to serve them.

9.43 p.m.

When the Unemployment Bill was before the House last year those of us who ventured to voice our objections to the creation of the Unemployment Assistance Board were invariably met with the formula, "Ah, but this is going to take the question of unemployment out of politics." Whoever was responsible for the coining of that phrase should have his name and fame permanently preserved for the delight of posterity as a first-class humourist, because, after only a few weeks of opera- tion, the board has contrived to charge the political air with more electricity than is to be found in any problems which still are officially in politics. There has been much plain criticism from some sections of the Press, and there has been mingled wrath and fire from other sections. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour himself has told us that he is shocked. On Friday of last week the Prime Minister made a statement endeavouring to alleviate the difficult position which had arisen so far as the Government are concerned.

To-day the Opposition has launched its official thunderbolt by tabling a Motion of Censure. In circumstances like these the House is asked to pass a Measure to amend the Act that was to take unemployment out of politics. That phrase must be the best or the worst, whichever may be the point of view, since the famous proclamation that the Great War was going to make the world safe for democracy. The Government certainly deserve our gratitude for facing the music so promptly. It is a disgraceful thing that this condition of affairs should have been allowed to arise, and in my view it could have been averted from the start. It is all very well to say that this is something which could not have been foreseen, that the actual working of the scales could not have been foreseen and that no one could have prophesied that they would cause hardship. I cannot do better than quote what my hon. Friend the Member for East Newcastle (Sir R. Aske) said in the Debate in this House on the 17th December, because it puts the case better than any other speech I have read: ment the possibilities that would arise if the regulations were put into force. I am not putting it too highly when I say that the drafting of that Measure was a masterpiece of the bureaucratic mind, and the working of it would have been a triumph for the bureaucratic mind—if it had worked. But it certainly will not work in its present form. This experience has indirectly done a great service to the cause of democracy and parliamentary government. It has shown that unemployment, like all major human issues, cannot be kept out of politics. The public outcry has caused this issue to be brought back for discussion to the very place from which it never should have been taken, the Floor of the House of Commons, which is the province of the private Member, who can speak for his constituents as a human being, as one who knows their needs, not as a bureaucratic body administering a scale according to some schedule laid down in an Act of Parliament.

Perhaps more than anything else this contretemps, this embarrassment, of the Government has directed the attention of the House and the whole country to the grave dangers inherent in any tendency to delegate the duties of this House to Government Departments. The Socialist Opposition have tabled a Motion of Censure, many speeches have been made by their spokesmen about the iniquity of these regulations. Their protestations are to my mind somewhat irrelevant, because time after time they have laughed openly and derisively on the occasions on which I have endeavoured to warn the House of the evils of legislation by regulations. It is only when they find in their criticism of these regulations something in the nature of a popular electioneering cry that they acknowledge the very dangers which have been pointed out to them time and time again.

I am speaking on the general question of legislation by regulations. My hon. Friend cannot have it both ways. He cannot condemn the regulations to-day as regulations and accept them another day in regard to something else. He must be consistent, and I am sure he will concede that I have been consistent in regard to the question of the evils of legislation by regulations.

The hon. Member should be sure of his facts when accusing me of having voted for the regulations. Perhaps he will take an opportunity at a later stage of making sure for himself whether or not the hon. Member whom he is now addressing voted for the regulations. On the general question, so far as my district of Durham is concerned I am deeply concerned about the regulations and how they will work in individual cases. The people in the county of Durham have suffered enough already from the depression which has now lasted for a decade, and to reduce their allowance was indeed the last straw. I am glad that the Government have had the courage to acknowledge their mistake, and that these reductions will not be permitted to take place. I hope that there will be an end of these miscalculations in terms and miscalculations of facts and psychology. I must mention one thing and that is the unfortunate impression which was created in the North of England last week when it was reported that the Minister of Labour had refused to meet the Lord Mayor of the great city of Newcastle on the occasion of his visit last Friday. It may be that there is an adequate explanation, but, nevertheless, the fact remains that an unfortunate impression was created.

There are only two other points I wish to make. Mention has been made of the question of the appointed day. In the county of Durham we have been suffering from the great burden of rates for many years, and it is a great blow to many of us that there is a likelihood of our having to carry that burden longer than we had anticipated. It is agreed that the present scale of unemployment benefit only gives the lowest level of maintenance to our people, and that the public will not tolerate any reduction. I share the apprehension of my hon. Friend the Member for Spennymoor in regard to the 'application of the household test.

I must apologise to the hon. Member. No one ought to know that fact better than I do. I share his apprehension in regard to the application of the household test. No one has defended more than I have efforts which have been made to ensure that there should be a proper acknowledgment of the duty of one member of a family towards the family, and of the members of the family towards each other. I am beginning to feel more and more that in the application of this test there is a growing possibility, indeed a probability, of breaking up family life which is a matter of grave concern to all who have the real interests of our people at heart. If we can be satisfied that the application of the test is, by any chance, having that effect, then at once we ought to refrain from doing something which would do a further and perhaps an irreparable damage to that grand structure, the family life of the people.

9.57 p.m.

This Debate raises many important questions as well as that of the way in which the Government can scurry out of the self-created difficulties. That, in itself, no doubt is a big enough task for this once all-powerful Government which is now apparently looking round to see how it can shed its Jonahs. We gather from the Press that they are now admitting that they are going down and down and down, and they are looking round to see if they can find some assistance outside, some new young leader like the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), who has been suggested as a useful addition to the party. I hope that we shall hear from the right hon. Gentleman when he replies exactly how, on the principle of the new deal, this unemployment problem would be dealt with, because we understand that the right hon. Gentleman is now in close association with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs through Governmental channels.

There has been a strong inclination on the part of some Members supporting the Government and I think of some Members of the Government itself to try to hand on the blame for this debacle to somebody else. I see that the Prime Minister is in his place, and I would like to give him an opportunity now of answering a question. He said, as reported at Luton, that the Government were being accused of being responsible for reducing the allowances for unemployed people, and that that was not true. Would the right hon. Gentleman kindly say who was responsible? I am prepared to give way to him if he will answer that question. Mr. Speaker, the right hon. Gentleman is incapable of stating whether his own statement is true or not. When I speak at Luton on Thursday I shall take the opportunity of telling the people that he was unable to answer that question in the House of Commons. Does the right hon. Gentleman wish to say something? Apparently not. He is apparently trying to shelter himself behind some vague suggestion of responsibility in some other quarter—surely a rather despicable piece of conduct. Are we to understand that it is his late colleague, Lord Rushcliffe, who is to blame, or are we to understand, as was suggested by the Parliamentary Secretary in an earlier Debate on this subject, that it was the harsh administration by the officers which had really led to these difficulties. Let me remind the House of what the Parliamentary Secretary said:

The House seems to have overlooked in very large part during these discussions the extraordinary position that regulations of this sort should ever have been introduced. The mind of the House has been concentrated upon the withdrawal of the regulations, but why was it that these regulations which admittedly have brought suffering to hundreds of people in the country were ever allowed to be recommended to the House by the right hon. Gentleman? I am going to ask him some questions about it later. We have heard the history of the origin of these regulations. But the right hon. Gentleman was told in this House over and over again what the results would be if these regulations were put into force. He stood at that Box and he denied it. What test had he made to see whether what he said was the truth or not? What tests did he have made by his Depart- ment, which is fully equipped, upon the scales in the regulations, of cases typical throughout, say, South Wales, in order to know whether he was justified in coming to this House and saying that no hardship would result from the imposition of these scales?

After all, it is not a matter very difficult to test whether a reduction from 26s. to 24s. is going to affect someone, and the hon. and gallant Member for Barnard Castle (Lieut.-Colonel Headlam) said that one of the worst things was the reduction from 26s. to 24s. Did the Minister believe, when he introduced these regulations, that that 2s. reduction was justified? Did he believe that it would not introduce any element of hardship when he came here to advise the House that they would give a more generous treatment to the unemployed? Had he looked to see? He had not. I suggest that he gravely neglected his duty to this House and to the country, because it was on the face of his recommendation and the statements he made that no doubt a great many right hon. and hon. Gentlemen went into the Lobby supporting the regulations, honestly believing what he told them, that this was going to give better conditions to the unemployed.

Then it is said that the moment the Government discovered this it was put right. Nonsense! It was the workers who discovered this. The Government did not move until the protests in the country were so loud that the Government were compelled to pay attention to them. It is absolutely idle for the Government to attempt to come here clothed in a white sheet and to say, "Look how beautifully we have behaved." They waited after they must have known the results. Unless the Department of the Minister of Labour is exceedingly incompetent, the Government must have known the results within a week of the imposition of the orders. They must have had reports from Employment Exchanges up and down the country of the effect of the cuts. Not a word was ever said about it; no orders were given for cancellation. The matter was not referred back by the Unemployment Assistance Board. It was not until the workers rose in their tens of thousands in the valleys of South Wales, and in other parts of the country that the Government busied themselves with doing something to reverse these grossly unfair regulations. Will the Minister say that the Ministry of Labour have no machinery by which they could have known this within a very short period of time of this happening, and will he say when his Department first reported to him the effect that these scales were having in different parts of the country, because that would be an extremely interesting date to the House and the country? The truth is that no trouble was taken to reverse these regulations until the protest came from the country itself. As a result many unemployed suffered weeks of hardship, and a terrible fear came upon people in many districts that this was to be the rule of their lives in future.

I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman a little bit about the position of the Unemployment Assistance Board. This is a very vital matter naturally to anyone who will in future have to decide whether regulations coming from this board are such that this House should accept them or not. I wish to ask certain very specific questions. First of all, was there any and what consultation between the Unemployment Assistance Board, the right hon. Gentleman, the Treasury, or any other Government Department, prior to 26th October, 1934, when the first draft regulations were submitted to the right hon. Gentleman. Was that an entirely independent thing or had there formerly been consultations with the Government? Secondly, were those draft regulations the draft regulations that are referred to in Section 52 of the Act? The right hon. Gentleman will remember that the board must, within four months of the passing of the Act, submit draft regulations. Were those the draft regulations submitted in accordance with Section 52, Sub-section (2)? Was there, subsequently to the submission of these regulations on 26th October, any discussion between the Unemployment Assistance Board and the right hon. Gentleman or any other Government Department as to the contents of that first draft, which I understand from the right hon. Gentleman was subsequently withdrawn? If it was subsequently withdrawn there was then, of course, in existence no draft submitted within the statutory period, because that ceased to be a draft once it was withdrawn, and the provision that draft regulations upon which regulations had subsequently to be based must be submitted within four months was not complied with.

Then I ask the right hon. Gentleman: Why did the Unemployment Assistance Board propose to withdraw those regulations? And will he give to the House full information as regards the submission and the withdrawal of those first draft regulations in order that we may know whether or not that was solely upon the action of the board, or whether it was something in which the Government had a part? Lastly, I should like to know whether the right hon. Gentleman proposes to consult with the Unemployment Assistance Board as regard the drafting of new regulations, or whether that is to be left to this non-political body which he has set up, with someone in the position of a judge at its head, to do it uninterfered with by His Majesty's Government; or whether he has now changed his opinion and believes that it is necessary for the Government to interfere politically in the drafting of these regulations.

Lastly, will the right hon. Gentleman undertake to the House on this occasion that the first draft submitted to him by the Unemployment Assistance Board will be shown to the House, so that we may know exactly what the position is? There is another thing upon these regulations that I wish to ask. Will the House have any opportunity on this occasion of amending the draft regulations? That, I know, will require an Amendment of the Act of 1934, but I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he thinks that his experience has shown that the way that is laid down in the Act of 1934 is a satisfactory way to do things, and whether this is not a great opportunity for trying a new procedure in this House, by which the draft regulations might be submitted to a Committee, formed in the ordinary way of all parties, where they might be discussed and amended, if necessary, before being submitted to the House to be passed by the House. In that way at least we should retain some element of democratic control over those regulations, and, if we are going to legislate in this way, we do not want to be met again with the absurd position of a set of regulations being withdrawn because of a "that" instead of a "than" in the middle of them.

There is a deeper question still raised by this Bill, and that is the question of whether you can ever deal satisfactorily with this position merely by a new set of regulations. I think the Debate to-day must have convinced the right hon. Gentleman that, whatever the position was before these regulations were brought out and this fiasco occurred, the country is not any longer going to stand for a family means test. It is not one party only. I have a telegram here which was received this evening by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition:

Unless we are going to take some steps to amend the Act of 1934, future regulations must have exactly the same means test as the last regulations, because that is inherent in the Act and not in the regulations themselves. This difficulty has arisen because the Government, realising that they have got to take national responsibility for this, have sought to transfer the local machinery to a national machinery, and although the injustices of the means test existed under the local machinery, they have become far more obvious when the national machinery has been applied. It is not the difficulty of an officer here or there applying the means test; it is the difficulty inherent in the test itself. Some hon. Members talk about family love and family loyalty and families supporting one another, but what hon. Member in this House would be prepared to have his Income Tax assessed with his father's? It is exactly the same thing. Or what hon. Member would be prepared to have the whole of his income devoted to the support of his brothers and sisters and uncles and aunts and cousins?

The object of this Measure was to equalise out payments. That was the avowed object of it—to get rid of those inequalities, largely because Labour local authorities had been very humane in applying the means test in some districts. The Government tried to get over that by a commissioner in Durham. They could not get over it in South Wales. There was a very rapidly growing body of Labour local authorities about the time the Unemployment Act was introduced, and in order to stop the growth of humanity in the administration of the means test it was to be taken out of politics and given to the Unemployment Assistance Board. It has been a signal failure to take anything out of politics. It has planted unemployment more firmly than ever before in the centre of the political situation. We shall not be content until those higher standards which are now well known throughout the country, which have ruled in enlightened districts like South Wales, are spread throughout the whole country. If uniformity is going to exist, it must be on the highest scales. The right hon. Gentleman has now got himself into a position from which he will find it very hard to draw back. He will find that if he does anything now to touch the standards at the moment existing under these temporary regulations, the workers, having found what pressure can do upon the Government once, will use that pressure again just as effectively.

The Government are well on the run, and they will be kept on the run until a decent Amendment of the Act of 1934 has been laid before the House. It is no good the right hon. Gentleman thinking that he and the Government will be able to get away with merely a new set of regulations. They can put what they like in the new regulations, but they will not content the people of this country now. They have discovered, and many of the right hon. Gentleman's supporters have discovered, and, as the general election approaches, they will discover more and more, that a family means test will not be accepted any longer by the people of this country. There is another point which was raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) on the question of the responsibility of the public assistance committees in regard to people under Part II. It will be absolutely unworkable if an ultimate responsibility is not left in the locality for everybody who is destitute, whether they are under Part I or under Part II or under the Poor Law. You cannot take out a section of the people and say, "You shall not in any circumstances have recourse to the Poor Law." You have to leave the ultimate recourse in cases of urgent necessity in the locality. The Eighth Schedule, which removes from the ambit of the Poor Law those who fall under Part II of the Act, will equally have to go, because it also has been shown by the attempt to apply these regulations in the last few weeks to be an unworkable proposition, which, in individual cases, will result in impossible hardship to individuals who, for a time, have nowhere they can go to get the means of subsistence. You must provide them, in their own localities, with someone who carries the ultimate responsibility for immediate assistance in cases of that kind.

This temporary Measure no doubt gives the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues a breathing space. In no sense is it, or do they regard it as, a solution of the problem. We shall certainly watch with the keenest eye the developments that take place during this temporary period, because we are not so satisfied that these officers, however good their intentions may be, will be able, under these temporary regulations, to carry out even the desires of the right hon. Gentleman. It is all very well telling an officer that he has to do the same as he thinks the Public Assistance Committee would have done if they had had the facts before them which he has, and they had not, and then ask him to make up his mind on a sum in arithmetic. We shall find lots of cases where, unless a completely free hand is given and they are told "Spend what you like so long as you do it generously," complaint will be made. We shall keep an even closer eye upon the next act of the right hon. Gentleman. If it be to submit regulations to this House, we shall know that he is not prepared to take the really necessary definite step of repealing the Act of 1934, and we shall keep the people's mind focussed on these problems during the next few weeks. We shall not allow a period of quiet in which the right hon. Gentleman and the Government can bring in some Measure which will reduce the payments as they stand at the moment in order to assist in economising.

10.28 p.m.

The House as a whole will, I am sure, be grateful to the right hon. and learned Member for East Bristol (Sir S. Cripps) for a characteristic speech. At any rate, the supporters of the Government are under no illusion, as far as he is concerned, that he intends not only to see that whatever grievances have resulted to the unemployed from these regulations are remedied, but that he intends to exploit to the full the situation of the unemployed for the benefit of his own political party. During this Debate I have been asked certain specific questions, not only on the actual provisions of the Bill, but on the circumstances which rendered its introduction necessary, and I propose to start my remarks by answering those questions. The right hon. Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood), in terms which were not so effective, though just as willing as those of the right hon. and learned Gentleman, complained of a lack of frankness with regard to the dealings between the Board and the Government prior to the introduction of the regulations.

In answer to a question last week I gave an account of what had happened. I explained then that owing to the fact that a date was inserted in the Act by which time the draft regulations had to be submitted, the Board, to comply with that provision, submitted before the end of October draft regulations which they stated at the time were incomplete and might have to be revised. I proceeded, as is my duty, to consider the regulations as submitted, but, as I explained to the House last week, before it came to a question of myself and the Government reaching a decision whether we should agree with the regulations submitted or whether we should insert certain Amendments or not, the draft regulations were withdrawn by the Board and regulations were submitted which were identical in terms with those which the House was subsequently asked to approve. The hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan)—

Would the right hon. Gentleman excuse me? I asked him a number of questions with regard to what consultation there was between the Board and the Government in that period.

Naturally, as I was entitled, I asked the Board for a considerable amount of information with regard to the effect and the meaning of the various items in the regulations. It was clear that no Government could possibly decide whether to approve or reject regulations submitted by the Board without finding out what was the effect, scope and intention of the regulations. The hon. Member for Gorbals referred to a statement made in the "Daily Herald," I think the Scottish edition, that they had certain information that the Cabinet had ordered the Board to cut down the cost of the regulations by £10,000,000 because they could not afford that sum of money.

I have already stated in this House, and I have stated outside, that that story is completely untrue. I am not quibbling about figures, as to whether it is £5,000,000 or £10,000,000. It is quite untrue that I, as Minister responsible in the Cabinet for these regulations, ever put any pressure or suggested to the Board that they should make any alterations whatsoever in their regulations for the sake of effecting an economy which the Treasury desired. I cannot give a more categorical answer than that. The hon. Member for Gorbals went on to say, "Why not publish those regulations that were withdrawn?" I explained to the House last week that I did not think it fair to the Board to publish regulations which were subsequently withdrawn and which, when they were submitted, were stated to be incomplete and possibly subject to revision. I did give the House an assurance that, in fact, the new regulations which were submitted provided for an estimated increase in the expenditure.

Anyhow, I ask the hon. Member for Gorbals, what would be the good of publication? It is all very well for him to say that it would prove the story. He and I have been in the House together for a long time. We have spoken in the same debates, we have disagreed fundamentally on everything and we have said some hard things about each other. But at least I can understand him. I know he will not twist my words. I know that, if I give a categorical personal assurance about something which is within my knowledge, he is going to accept it. But is it likely that people who are not going to accept my statement that this is untrue will accept the publication of a document? What is the next thing that they will say? That that is not the real document, that there was an earlier document—

What was in my mind was that, for good or ill, Glasgow is very much mixed up with this matter. One of its most prominent officials is on the board, and the correspondent of the "Herald" is the treasurer of the city; and, for good or ill, the common conception is that this comes from a member of the board because of his personal associations. I think that publication would show who was right and who was wrong, and at least would let us know exactly what the facts were.

I have 'already stated to the House, as the person responsible and as the person with a knowledge of the facts, that it is quite untrue that any pressure was put upon the Board by the Cabinet to reduce the regulations for the sake of economy. I have said already that the differences that there were between the first and the second drafts of the regulations were differences in an upward direction. If people are not prepared to accept that statement, does anybody in the House believe that they are going to accept the publication of any document which disproves the story that they choose to believe?

Let me turn to the financial aspect of the matter. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield complained that I had misled—I do not know whether he said deliberately misted—the House with regard to the financial effect of the regulations. Hon. Members who listened to my speech on that occasion will recollect that I explained the only method by which it was possible to arrive at some sort of comparison between the existing cost and the cost of the regulations, and that I told the House that there was in that method some room for inaccuracy. But I do not for a moment disguise the fact that I gave the House the impression—the impression which I had myself—that the effect of the regulations was going to be to increase the payments received by those on transitional payments at the rate of something like £3,000,000 a year, although the exact figure, as I explained, might be mistaken. I gave an assurance to the House on information worked out in that way, which I was entitled to accept and entitled to ask the House to believe. How wrong that estimate was, and, if it was wrong, why it was wrong, a close inquiry into the first few weeks' working of the regulations will reveal.

Some difference, undoubtedly, has been made by the fact that in a considerable number of cases the inquiries carried out by the Board's officers have revealed in families larger resources than had been revealed to the public assistance committees. That, of course, would make a considerable difference. But, as I said to the House last week, I think with perfect frankness the feeling, that the financial picture which I gave to the House, and on the faith of which I think to a large extent the House accepted the regulations, has not proved to be accurate, although it cannot yet be definitely checked or assessed, was the main fact which induced me to make the representations to the Board which ended in the statement made last week and in the Bill which the House of Commons is now asked to consider. But, of course, the suggestion that I or any other person standing at this Box would have deliberately attempted to mislead the House on a question of this kind is fantastic on grounds which will appeal to the right hon. Gentleman, not that it would be immoral on my part, but that it would have been very imprudent, not that he would think me incapable of telling a lie but that he would think me wise enough not to tell a lie which was bound to be found out. The fact that in time the actual payment would have had to be revealed to the House makes any such suggestion quite fantastic.

Let me refer to the question of the position of local authorities owing to the alteration of the date of the second appointed day. I think the House generally realises that, with the strain thrown upon the machinery of the Board in the new scales of payment, and particularly in the repayment of the reductions, any preparation for the appointed day became quite impossible. The Government realise that the position in which the local authorities are placed is no fault of their own and that the appointed day is postponed to suit the convenience of the Board and of the Government. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, I understand, intends to enter into immediate negotiations with representatives of the local authorities to ensure that he can agree with them fair compensation for the burden that has been put upon them by the postponement of the date.

Let me pass to an incident which has been given considerable prominence in the Press and which has been referred to to-day. That is the incident with regard to the advancement of the payments which were to be made to some of the unemployed by the public assistance committee at Sheffield. I took the feeling of the House last week when I made the statement with regard to the Board that they approved of this temporary arrangement, that they desired to see the stabilisation of payments and the repayment of the reduction that has been made, and that they wanted to see those things done as quickly as possible. In fact, I put it to the House that what I should ask them for was not a Bill which would enable these things to be done, but a Bill also to indemnify them when they had been done, and that is the form of the Bill which the House is now considering. The statement made by the Unemployment Assistance Board that it was impossible for them to start making payments on the new scale, or to start upon these repayments before the pay-day of this week, was not due to an inability to anticipate the passing of legislation, because I assured them of the Government's support in asking the House for an indemnity. For reasons of machinery it was quite impossible to alter the determinations in order for payments to start on Thursday and Friday of last week. On Thursday I received a telegram or telephone message from the public assistance committee of Sheffield asking whether they were allowed to supplement, and I sent the answer, which was the correct one, that there was no power under the law which enabled them to supplement the payments made by the Board and that there was nothing, which, in fact, was true, that I could do in the matter. Subsequently, on their own initiative, they went to the Board and they entered into the arrangement with the Board by which they would advance the difference between the payments made by the Board and the payments on the old scale, and this would subsequently be repaid.

I have not made myself clear. It was quite illegal to supplement, and I had to tell the public assistance committee that; but it was possible—and this was what I was going to explain—in view of an arrangement of this kind, with the consent of the Ministry of Health, for the public assistance committees to advance this money to the applicants. Having discussed this arrangement with the Board, the public assistance committee approached my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health to ask whether he would sanction this arrangement under the powers he had, and my right hon. Friend and I, feeling that the effect of this arrangement was to expedite the payments to the applicants, which the House, I am sure, wanted to see, but which neither I nor the Board could do without the assistance proffered by the local authority in this case, saw no reason why we should withhold our concurrence. I think that it was a common sense thing to do. It is a thing which, as a matter of fact, was not used by the applicants in Sheffield to anything like the extent which it might have been, but it undoubtedly had the effect of enabling certain hard cases, where hardship might be caused, to be dealt with. [AN HON. MEMBER: "Was it done in other places?"] It was done in other places. I have a long list here of other places where it was done, but hon. Members will appreciate that in this matter the initiative had to come from the local authorities themselves. The local authorities were the people who had to make the payments and who had to be willing to enter into this agreement. With regard to the statement made by my right hon. Friend about Cumberland, I am afraid that I am at a loss. I have made inquiries since he spoke, and I understand that Cumberland received permission from the Ministry of Health on Friday and have actually carried out payments of this kind.

I think the House is entitled to resent the attempts made by the right hon. Gentleman to criticise and pillory the Prime Minister in connection with this incident. The position of the Prime Minister to-day or of any party or Government is not very easy, for, as everybody knows, there is an intolerable strain of work. Merely to suggest that it is impossible for any Minister or Ministry to take decisions within their administrative powers on matters that affect their Department without consultation with the Prime Minister and the Cabinet, and without their being conversant with every detail, is a travesty of the possibilities of modern government.

The next question raised was, what was going to happen to new cases? There the right hon. Member for Wakefield did not do himself justice. My hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary gave an explicit and careful explanation of what the intention and effect of the Bill was, and, having heard that, the right hon. Gentleman proceeded to argue on the basis of what my hon. Friend had said last week he thought the intentions of the Board were going to be on this matter. I think everybody else in the House is quite clear as to the intentions of the Bill. It is true that difficulties are bound to arise when you ask the Board's officers to do what the public assistance committees would have done in these circumstances. These difficulties are not insuperable if there is effective co-operation between the Board's officers and the servants of the public assistance committees, and I feel that what difficulties there are can and will be overcome. The right hon. Gentleman asked why there should be any difference at all between the determination of those on transitional payment before 7th January and those since. Those before 7th January have a determination already in existence to which reference can be made, and those who have come on since have not. It is for these reasons that different machinery has to be devised to meet the two kinds of cases. Then there is the last point of supplementation by public assistance committees.

I am going to deal with that in a slight ending which I have to my speech, and which has nothing to to with the Bill. The right hon. Gentleman will realise that, interesting and revealing as the discourses on the means test have been, they have nothing to do with the Bill. With regard to supplementation by public assistance committees, that is of course, illegal under the law as it stands but instructions have been issued by the Board to their officers that, in cases where supplementation to transitional payments has been made by a local authority in the past, it is to be regarded by the Board's officers as in itself creating a special circumstance—because, presumably, supplementation was only made because it was necessary to do so in order to meet need—which will entitle the officers to use their discretion to make up the supplementation, and will entitle an applicant to appeal if that supplementation is not given, because officers cannot find anything to justify it.

May I take it that this is a repeal of the Poor Law as far as the question of the jurisdiction of a relieving officer is concerned, that he is not to have power to deal with extreme cases?

I think that has been made plain on several occasions. Relieving officers are to give relief in cases of urgent necessity. That is in no way affected by this Bill. I was dealing with a case where there was supplementation because of special, need by the local committees.

Is the effect of the new order simply to negative the provisions of the Act?

I thought hon. Members who are familiar with the point, understood. I say that without offence. It is a problem which is rather peculiar to certain areas. It has nothing whatever to do with the powers and duties of the relieving officers. The case with which I was dealing was the case where the transitional payment was supplemented by the public assistance committees and, of course, under the Act as it stands supplementation is no longer permissible. The position is that cases of supplementation will be taken by the Board's officers as being cases of special circumstances, where discretion can be used to give the same supplementation if the need exists.

That applies to supplementation in the past. What about new cases, not previously supplemented?

There you fall back on the duty of the Board to meet the need. If the need was not met by transitional payment determination, then the duty exists for them to supplement in order to meet the need.

The right hon. Gentleman will realise that it is a very important statement that he is making. If I understand him aright, this really cancels the provision in the Act?

Will the right hon. Gentleman allow me to say how it strikes me. I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that in those cases where supplementation has been made by a public assistance committee, instead of the rule being that the public assistance committee shall, if they so desire give that supplementation, the law is that they are not allowed to give it. Now, I understand from the right hon. Gentleman that he has decided, or the Unemployment Assistance Board has decided, that in those circumstances the person can go to the public assistance committee or the board's officers; it does not matter a fig whether he goes to the public assistance committee or to the board—[ Interruption ]—I am certain that there are not a dozen people in the House who understand what the right hon. Gentleman has just told us. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] I would like to put hon. Members through an examination. The point that I want to bring home is that under the Act you cannot supplement except in very special conditions. The right hon. Gentleman now says that all those who have been supplemented in the past will be treated as special cases and will be able, either from the board's officers or from the public assistance committees, to get supplementation.

That is not the case. The power of local authorities to supplement was withdrawn by the Act from the first appointed day in the Act, and there is nothing in this Bill which removes that prohibition. I am sorry if I have not made myself plain. Nothing has been altered by the Bill. There is still no power of the local authority to supplement. The Board have decided that, as presumably local authorities have only supplemented transitional payments because supplementation was necessary to meet the needs of the particular case, to instruct their officers, acting on that assumption, that they are entitled to regard any case where supplementation has occurred as a case of special circumstances, in which, if it be necessary to meet the needs of the case to increase the transitional payments, they have discretion to do so. In cases where they believe that in order to meet the need it is necessary to increase the transitional payments they will do so, and in cases where they feel that the needs of the applicant are met by transitional payments they will not exercise the discretion; and on a question as to the use of discretion the applicant is entitled to go to the appeal tribunal.

This is really an important statement, and I am sure the right hon. Gentleman wants to be quite fair. He has referred to the term "special circumstances" in the regulations. I take it that his intention is that that shall be extended so that people who have been getting supplementation from the public assistance committees will get the same supplementation under the term "special circumstances." That is the point.

I must apologise to the House. I really cannot make it plainer. I have told the House twice now that these cases can be regarded by the Board's officer as being cases of special circumstances; and a case of special circumstances is one in which the Board's officer can exercise his discretion if he thinks it right to do so. The Board's officer, therefore, will be invited to investigate all these cases and will be told that wherever he thinks the needs of the case require this extra payment to make it; in cases where he does not consider it necessary then, as I have said, the applicant will have the right of appeal.

I think I have made the position absolutely clear. I only want to say at this late hour a few words on the general position. The discussion which has taken place can be divided into two parts; one, the action we have taken to-day, and the other the action which was taken in December, that is the passage of the regulations. With regard to the action we are taking to-day in asking the House to give a Second Reading to a Bill which in effect restores the old position, I have no hesitation and no regrets. The hon. and gallant Member for Cleveland (Commander Bower) said that he thought that I had climbed down too far. I do not want to exaggerate, as very many have done, the evil effect, the injustices and the hardships which these regulations have caused. People now forget but they will soon be able to read in black and white when the investigation has been completed, the many thousands who have benefited from the operation of the regulations. I know it is easy to say, "Who are they? Where can they be found? But there are, of course, many such cases.

Nor are some of the accusations which have been hurled against the regulations such as could be either soberly or sincerely put forward. The hon. Member for Merthyr Tydvil (Mr. S. Davies) was referring in particular to the case of the single man living at home and he was criticising the scale of 10s. which was laid down in that case. No one can object to the hon. Gentleman arguing that that scale is too low and ought to be increased, but when he goes on to talk about sinister motives, about deliberately trying to starve young men in order to do I know not what, surely we are entitled to point out that the scale which the board adopted with these sinister motives for these single men, is the same scale as that adopted, as hon. Members opposite know, by the Socialist majority on the London County Council and the Socialist majority on the Glasgow City Council.

For the sake of clarity and in order to be fair to the Labour people may I say that if the Minister makes inquiries about the scale for young men in Glasgow I think he will find that he is wrong. I am speaking without the book but I think it is 12s. 6d. In common fairness to people with whom I often disagree that ought to be said.

I think that in common fairness also the right hon. Gentleman ought to make inquiries about the London scale.

I happen to have been shown the Glasgow scale in connection with a deputation which I was receiving. But leaving aside all these exaggerations I did find enough which I considered to be wrong and which I did not think could be remedied by a hastily-drawn, niggling Measure. If I have climbed down too far, it has been because I wanted to reach a level where we could have time for adequate reconsideration of this matter without feeling that time was being spent while hardships were still being inflicted on the unemployed. Now let me turn to the other side of the question, the passage of these regulations. Hon. Members in all parts of the House have talked about responsibility and about attempts to put responsibility on this or that person. I am not looking for anyone on whom to put responsibility, and I am certainly not going to put it on the officials of the Board. I confess that I hoped and believed that it would have been possible to have operated these regulations with less rigidity and a greater use of discretion. But I am certainly not going to blame the officials for a failure to use a discretion which they either did not possess or at any rate did not know they possessed. I believe that the officials have done their very best, with great courtesy and patience, to carry out their duty, and though, as I say, I have been disappointed in the possibility of the use of discretion, I am certainly not going to blame the officials concerned.

Nor am I seeking to put the responsibility upon the Board. On the Board after all, was the primary duty of preparing and submitting these regulations. They are a collection of people set up for that specific purpose, to whose advice and scales any Government actuary must give due weight and due attention. But the responsibility of submitting those scales to Parliament was not the Board's; it was mine. I do not seek to shelter either behind the Board or behind my colleagues in the Government—[ Interruption. ] The hon. Member for Broxtowe (Mr. Cocks) has made, in the course of the years I have known him, in the House, a few speeches and innumerable interruptions. Usually, I think, his interruptions, are more valuable than his speeches.

With regard to the circumstances under which I exercised responsibility, let me say at once that I never concealed from the House, as it was impossible to conceal, that there were certain effects of the regulations which led to reductions. I said that, although I believed that the financial effect was going to be beneficial to the unemployed, that would not be spread equally, but that some would suffer a reduction and some would have an advantage. That, of course, was obvious to anyone who looked at the regulations. But the thing which I did believe, and still believe it was impossible for anyone to foresee with accuracy, was the general effect of the regulations as a whole, Let me see what the history had been. The whole complaint at one time against the operation of transitional payments under the new scheme, even the complaint of hon. Members opposite, was the anomalies existing. They were just as anxious as we were to do away with a system by which people living in adjacent streets in exactly the same circumstances could be receiving sums which were totally different. I agree that it was one of the main objects of the Act, and the regulations which were made under it to get some kind of uniformity of treatment of people in similar circumstances. We believed it was possible that that uniformity could be tempered with a flexibility and a use of discretion which could maintain some of the elements of the old administration without reintroducing its anomalies. I do not believe that anyone could foretell whether, with a vast centralised machinery such as no one had seen before, dealing with thousands of people, it was in fact possible to combine those two elements—a reduction of the gross anomalies and the introduction of some measure of flexibility such as you had in the old administration, in meeting particular cases. I know that that was the intention of the regulations and the way it was hoped to work them. I believed it could be done. I believed too on the strength of the information supplied to me that the general effect of these regulations would be for the benefit of the unemployed as a whole, and, acting on my responsibility, I recommended the regulations to the House.

I am not going to try to shelter behind anyone. The hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Sir P. Harris), in a speech which, if I may say so, was a very generous one to a political opponent, talked about reputations. It does not seem to me that this is the time to think about responsibilities or reputations or recriminations. For the moment there is an emergency to be got over. I am asking the House to-day to pass the Second Reading of a Bill which I believe will tide the emergency over and give an opportunity for reconsideration. The time to think about reputations and responsibilities, in my judgment at any rate, will come when the necessity for immediate action is over.

With regard to the future, it is obvious that this Measure can only be temporary. It is not designed to do any more than to try to preserve an even keel while the future can be reconsidered. The Board are undertaking an immediate inquiry into the effects of the working of these regulations during the first few weeks of their existence. That will provide us with a real statistical picture of what the effects have been in different parts of the country, and where and what particular parts of the regulations have had particular effects in the various districts. The Board will then propose to the Government what they consider to be the alterations that are necessary to put the system straight again, and it will be for the Government to consider whether those alterations are the right ones, whether they are adequate, or whether there is something more or something different that should be done. This, at any rate, I can assure my hon. Friends behind me. The Act of Parliament and the regulations attached to it were introduced and passed by the Government in the belief that they would help the unemployed and with the desire that they should do so. It was their intention that the system should be for the benefit of the unemployed, and whatever changes have to be made, whatever alterations are necessary, they are determined that the system shall be made in fact to be for the benefit of the unemployed of this country.

11.18 p.m.

There are two points that I think we are entitled to ask the Minister. One is whether the Minister will consider bringing the new Regulations before the House in the form of a Bill and not in the form of regulations, so that the House will have adequate opportunities of examination and amendment. The Ministry would have protected itself from many of the errors which have been made if the House had had ample opportunity of amending the Regulations when they were before it. The next point is this. It is clear that as the law now stands the public assistance authority has no right to supplement the allowances, and nothing in this Bill restores that right, but there were very many instances where supplemental payments were made. The Minister has said this evening that where supplemental payments are made, there are special circumstances, and the officers of the Board will consider them as special circumstances. But we had that assurance last December, when we were told that our protection lay in the fact that the officers of the Board had discretionary power. What is the Minister now doing? By this Bill he is in fact saying that the Board accepts the assessments that were made by the public assistance authorities, and would continue payments on that basis where the assessments were not in excess of transitional payments. If, therefore, the Minister is accepting the assessment of the public assistance authorities where they assessed needs before, and where the assessment of need did not entail supplemental payments, why will he not accept the assessment of the local authority where that does involve payment of supplemental allowances? If the local authority in its capacity as an instrument of Government assesses transitional payments, he will accept the assessment as the proper assessment of need; but where the local authority assesses the need in its capacity as a public assistance authority and supplements the transitional payment, he will not accept it. Why? From the point of view of the man who receives the payment, it is a mere accident that some of it comes from the Treasury and some come from the rates. Why will he not, where the public assistance authority find it necessary to supplement transitional payment, accept that assessment?

It is true that the Minister has no guide when a new case comes on, but if the needs of the applicant are in excess of transitional payment, why cannot he do the same thing as he has already promised to do in the case of a new applicant for transitional payment? The Parliamentary Secretary told us this afternoon that where there is a new applicant, and therefore no determination to guide the officer, the officer of the Board will co-operate with the local authority and assess the new applicant as though his assessment had been made by the local authority or by the Board, whichever is the more generous. Is that the position? If that be the case with a new applicant where the assessment is not in excess of transitional payment, why cannot the Minister accept the same principle in the case where the needs are in excess of the transitional payment? There is no need why you should have all this cumbrous machinery. I cannot understand the Minister or his advisers. The right hon. Gentleman has been exceedingly ill-advised in this matter. There is no need to depart from the precedents that are estab- lished. The local authority has already assessed the case, and its assessment is accepted in the overwhelming majority of cases. Then why will not the Government accept its assessment in precisely those cases in which it is the best judge?

Thinking over what the hon. Member says I feel that he has not rightly interpreted me. He rather put a gloss on what I said. What I said was that I limited the new assessment to what would have been possible under transitional payments, and what we are restoring here is not the original assessment as made by the local authority but merely the original transitional payment assessment. There may have been cases in which the local authority said, "This man ought to have X shillings transitional payment plus something, at least, from us." All the Bill does is to place the man back in the position, so far as transitional payments are concerned, that he was in before.

The hon. Member has not quite followed the argument. We are quite aware that the Bill proposes to accept the assessment of the local authority in place of the assessment under the Regulations where those assessments refer to transitional payments. In that case the opinion of the local authority is accepted against the new determination under the Regulations, but it was that same authority which, in assessing the needs of certain applicants, said they ought to have supplementary payments. What we want to know is why the Government cannot accept that assessment also, and make the total payment from the Board on that basis, because there is the determination as a guide? From the point of view of the local authority it is one assessment. It is a mere incident that part of the money comes from the Treasury and part from the local rates. In the case of a new applicant, however, there is no determination as a guide. Have the Government said in that case, "Where there is no determination to guide us we will determine the needs of the applicant in accordance with our own Regulations"? Of course they have not, because that would create a grave anomaly. There would be some persons under the more generous scale of the local authority, and some assessed under a regulation to which we take exception. Therefore, what the Government have done, and quite correctly, is to say, "We will assess the new applicant as if he had been assessed by the local authority, or by the Board, whichever is the more generous." Then why cannot they do the same with that applicant if he would have received a supplementary payment? I cannot understand the Government in this matter. There is no need for them to add stupidity to ineptitude. I think I can claim that we on this side have tried this evening, and since this situation has arisen, to assist the Government with as much restraint and experience as we possess. [ Laughter. ]Hon. Members may laugh, but if they had listened to us more seriously before they would not be in the hole they are in to-night. It is with a desire to avoid a repetition of the muddle that I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that he should say that where supplementary payments have been made he will accept the assessment of the local authority, and not ask us to rely on these very illusory powers of flexibility which the local unemployment allowance officers are supposed to possess.

Further, will the right hon. Gentleman cause the Board to send out instructions to the effect that the chairmen of the tribunals now operating throughout the country shall not decide any case without appeal? When individuals appeal to the tribunals now, the chairmen are deciding to arrive at their decisions without having the applicant before them, and without going through the form of appeal at all. The very flexibility that the House desires to establish is being frustrated by the chairmen of the tribunals. Under the Act they have the right to say: "In my judgment there is no case for appeal; and, further, I do not propose to hear the case." Is it not better, in this interim period that the chairmen should not be so rigid, but should permit appeals to go straight through and let the applicants state their case? A great many of these anomalies would not then arise. I believe that the House will agree that the Minister could quite easily fall in with my suggestion without doing violence to the scheme. We would, on this side of the House, be very grateful to him if he could see his way to accept the suggestion.

11.32 p.m.

I shall not delay the House for very long, although I have sat here for seven hours listening to the Debate. I can condense what I have to say into three questions to the Minister, based on the practical administration of the Board during the last ten days. Before asking the House to accept any new Regulations submitted by the Board, would the Minister consider altering Paragraph I of Section VI of the old Regulations, which says:

The other point I wish to ask the Minister to bear in mind is that the vast majority of the working-class to-day not necessarily feed but clothe and shoe themselves and their families under a system of licence or check. Large numbers of working-class families who are applicants before the Board possess furniture that has been purchased on an extended payments system. I ask the Minister not to consider any regulation from the Board for presentation to this House unless it make some arrangement that the Board shall take into consideration all those contracts honourably entered into during the period when the applicant was unemployed. I have no time for the man who expects the country to pay for contracts into which he had no honourable right to enter; but a workman who has fallen unemployed and has honourable contracts to meet should be allowed to regard whatever he has to pay out in order to fulfil them as an outgoing from his income against which he has neither redress nor protest.

Another point, which has not been raised, is as to whether, if a rent regulation is to be included in the new Regulations of the Board, it will not be possible, before the House is asked to accept it, to see that it is based, not on a national average, but on an area average, which will give a far truer indication of the position than a national average, and will be more likely to help to solve the grievances which have arisen as a result of the Board's activities.

11.37 p.m.

I want to put to the Parliamentary Secretary a worse case than that put by the hon. Member opposite. It is a case in which an appeal was turned down by the area officer without the applicant being allowed to go before the chairman at all. As the Minister will recollect, the case is that of a man with a good many children, who was paying a low rent. The Minister stated that in that case he was going to issue a new instruction that these two things should not be taken together, and, as a result of his statement, I wrote to my constituent and told him to appeal at once. On the Minister's statement he made an appeal, but the appeal was sent back to him by the area officer on the ground that more than 14 days had elapsed since the ascertainment, although the appeal was made after the Minister had made his statement. I suggest that action of that kind on the part of an area officer ought to be dealt with.

As a matter of fact, most of these things are really out of order.

Question, "That the Bill be now read a Second time," put, and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read a Second time.

Bill committed to a Committee of the Whole House for To-morrow.—[ Captain Margesson. ]

Unemployment Assistance (Temporary Provisions) [Money]

Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 69.

[Sir DENNIS HERBERT in the Chair.]

Resolved,

"That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make temporary provision for securing as nearly as may be that the allowances payable under Part II of the Unemployment Act, 1934, to persons who, but for the operation of sub-section (2) of section fifty-nine of that Act, would at any time since the sixth day of January, nineteen hundred and thirty-five, have been entitled to transitional payments, shall not be less than the transitional payments that would have been payable to them but for the operation of the said sub-section; to postpone the second appointed day for the purposes of the said Act; and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid, it is expedient to provide—

Resolution to be reported To-morrow.

Consolidated Fund (No. 1) Bill

Read a Second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for To-morrow.

Increase of Rent and Mortgage Interest (Restrictions) Bill

Read a Second time, and committed to a Standing Committee.

It being after Half-past Eleven of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

Adjourned at Twenty Minutes before Twelve o'Clock.