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Commons Chamber

Volume 297: debated on Wednesday 13 February 1935

House of Commons

Wednesday, February 13, 1935

New Writ

For the University of Cambridge, in the room of Godfrey Harold Alfred Wilson, Esquire (Manor of Northstead).—[ Captain Margesson. ]

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

Private Business

Blackpool Improvement Bill (by Order),

Read a Second time, and committed.

Harrogate Corporation Bill (by Order),

Second Reading deferred till Monday next.

Reading Corporation Bill (by Order),

Second Reading deferred till Tuesday next.

Rhyl Urban District Council Bill (by Order),

South Shields Corporation Bill (by Order),

Second Reading deferred till Tomorrow.

Southern Railway Bill (by Order),

Second Reading deferred till Wednesday next.

Ministry of Health Provisional Order (County of Holland Joint Hospital District) Bill,

Read a Second time, and committed.

Oral Answers to Questions

Questions

Far East

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the dangers to world peace caused by the vague definition of boundaries and national responsibilities in the vicinity of Mongolia and Manchukuo, he will consider the desirability of arranging for a joint conference between China and Japan, Russia, and other Powers interested in the Far East?

I hardly think that these large issues can be dealt with in answer to a question. My hon. and gallant Friend may rest assured that any influence that His Majesty's Government can exercise will be used in the manner that may seem most appropriate in the interests of peace.

Russia (British Debts and Claims)

2 and 3.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (1) whether His Majesty's Government will take further steps to get the Soviet to pay outstanding British debts; and whether, now that the Soviet is a member of the League of Nations, His Majesty's Government will ask the League of Nations to act as arbiter in this matter?

(2) whether, in asking the Soviet Government to meet its debts to British nationals, His Majesty's Government will separate the obligations to private nationals from those which are of a public character, so that the former, which only amount to two or three hundred millions, may be paid at once?

The question of these debts and claims is engaging the serious attention of His Majesty's Government, but I am not in a position to state what further action will be taken in the matter.

Bolivia and Paraguay

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is able to state what arms reached Bolivia and Paraguay during the period of the double embargo?

No, Sir. I regret that I have not sufficient information to reply to this question.

Will my right hon. Friend consider the advisability of asking for the information to see whether there are any arms in addition to those from Belgium and Norway about which representations have already been made?

These were case in which information reached us, not from Bolivia or Paraguay, but from other sources. My hon. Friend will, of course, see the difficulty of knowing where to address our inquiries.

China and Japan

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has received any information from His Majesty's Minister in China as to the general purport of the conversations now taking place between the representatives of the Chinese and Japanese Governments?

The reports I have received from His Majesty's Minister in China indicate that the conversations referred to deal in a general way with the broad question of Sino-Japanese relations. No more definite information as to their purport is at present available.

Great Britain and China

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what steps he is taking to remove the impression in China that Great Britain is indifferent to her interests caused by the loss of China's seat on the Council of the League of Nations?

I should be surprised to learn that any such impression exists. The Assembly of the League did not declare China re-eligible, but His Majesty's Government have certainly given the Chinese Government no grounds for thinking that they are indifferent to their interests, and current questions continue to be discussed in the most friendly spirit between the two Governments.

Will my right hon. Friend take steps to discover how strong is the feeling among the authorities of Nanking that they are being neglected by the West and that it may possibly have repercussions on their associations with the East?

I am glad to have the opportunity of answering that question, and saying that, so far as this country is concerned, there is no ground for such a supposition at all.

Can my right hon. Friend say whether China has yet paid her share of the cost of maintaining the League?

Anglo-French Conversations

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in connection with the recent Anglo-French conversations, he is aware that although newspaper correspondents were officially assured on the Saturday evening, 2nd February, that nothing would be issued to the Press until the following evening, within two hours of such assurance the text of the agreement was issued generally by a French news agency; and whether he will arrange that, in connection with any future conference, Press communiqués are issued in such a way that British agencies will not again receive such unfair treatment?

The statement made to newspaper correspondents on Saturday evening, 2nd February, was made in accordance with the then state of the Anglo-French conversations. I regret that a foreign agency should have published an unofficial anticipation of the final communiqué, but His Majesty's Government cannot be held responsible in any way for an unauthorised statement which may have been pieced together from various sources. It was partly in view of this unfortunate incident that I thought it right, as I have already stated to the House, to broadcast an accurate statement regarding the official communiqué on the following Sunday evening. In reply to the last part of the question, I would point out to my hon. and gallant Friend that the official joint communiqué to the Press which alone gave a full and correct version of the conversations was issued to the British and foreign news agencies immediately after the final meeting, held on Sunday, 3rd February.

Is it not a fact that the report issued by the French agency was in essence accurate, while the reports published in British newspapers, as a result of lack of information, were inaccurate and misleading; and will he take steps in future conferences to see that British newspapers are furnished with accurate information at the same time as the newspapers of other countries?

I do not think it is correct to say that the anticipation published by the agency abroad was accurate, but in any case the most important thing is that when the British Government undertake not to make more than a certain statement they should keep their word.

Will my right hon. Friend see that the other parties in the conference also keep their word?

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, during the recent Anglo-French discussion in London, any consideration was given to the question of the restoration of the Hapsburg dynasty; and whether he can give an assurance that no such restoration will be favoured by this country?

This question was not raised in the discussions to which the hon. Member refers, and I do not consider it necessary to make any further statement on the subject.

Italy and Abyssinia

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in connection with the dispute between Italy and Abyssinia, he has considered the report signed by Colonel Clifford and other members of the Anglo-Ethiopian boundary commission, stating that Italian officers in charge of military aircraft used threatening and intransigent behaviour; whether this report will be placed before the League of Nations' Council at its next session; and whether His Majesty's Government has made any direct representation to the Italian Government on the report?

The report of the joint Commission covering the events which followed their arrival at Walwal on the 23rd November was included as Annex 14 in the memorandum presented on the 17th January last to the Secretary-General of the League of Nations by the Ethiopian representative.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the present situation in the dispute between Italy and Abyssinia?

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has received any information regarding the Italian-Abyssinian dispute and, in particular, whether either country has appealed to the League of Nations?

In reply to inquiries addressed to the Ministry for Foreign Affairs in Rome, His Majesty's Ambassador in that capital has been informed that following certain recent incidents involving Italian casualties in the frontier zone between Italian Somaliland and Ethiopia, where it is stated that substantial Abyssinian forces have been concentrated, the Italian Government have, as a precautionary and defensive measure, mobilised in Italy two divisions aggregating some 30,000 men.

His Majesty's Government have been further informed that these precautionary measures in no way imply that it is the intention of the Italian Government to abandon their endeavours to seek an amicable settlement of their differences with Ethiopia by direct negotiations as foreshadowed by the letters addressed to the Secretary-General of the League of Nations by the Italian and Ethiopian representatives in Geneva on the 19th January last. His Majesty's Government have also been informed that there not only has been no advance on the part of the Italian forces from the line they have long occupied in the disputed area, but the Italian Minister in Addis Ababa has in fact been instructed to negotiate with the Abyssinian Government, and I would add that His Majesty's Minister in the Ethiopian capital has been authorised to use his good offices in promoting the success of these negotiations.

The Press reports current yesterday of an Italian ultimatum to Abyssinia have been officially denied. Protests have, however, been made in Addis Ababa following the recent frontier incidents and, in making these protests, the Italian Government have reserved their right to seek reparation.

I should say also that the Ethiopian Government state that they have lived up to the undertakings given in their letter addressed to the Secretary-General of the League of Nations, and that strict orders have been given to avoid further incidents.

So far as I am aware, no fresh appeal has been made by either side to the League of Nations.

Can my right hon. Friend say whether the direct negotiations arranged for at the last meeting of the Council have made any progress as yet?

My previous answer shows that our information is that the two parties are engaged in discussion. Of course, the Council took note of the letters addressed to the Secretary-General of the League and the pledges which they contained, on the basis of which these discussions have been arranged.

Do we understand from the answer that the action of His Majesty's representatives at Addis Ababa and Rome is due to the membership of this country of the League of Nations, and that we have no direct interest in the conflict?

My Noble Friend is quite right. Our position is that we stand in friendly relations with both these countries and naturally wish to do everything to secure that there is a peaceful conclusion.

Royal Navy

Boom Gate Vessels

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether any ship of the new Gate class is to be called after the coastal towns of Margate and Ramsgate; and, if not, whether he will consider the suggestion?

The standard Boom Gate vessels now being built or projected are being named after the ancient gates of the City of London. A vessel which is being converted for service as a Gate vessel, however, has recently been given the name of "Westgate," which adjoins Margate in the constituency represented by my hon. Friend.

North Atlantic Ships (Sales Abroad)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, in view of the potential value of the ships in the event of war, the Admiralty was con- sulted before the sale of the Red Star ships "Pennland" and "Western-land" to foreign ownership?

Yes, Sir, the Admiralty were consulted in March, 1934, and consented to the termination of agreements with the owners of these ships, which provided for the permission of His Majesty's Government being obtained before the ships could be sold to foreign buyers.

How many of the crews were trained for the Naval Reserve?

Questions

Hong Kong (Mui-Tsai System)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will publish the proposals sent from the Colonial Office to the Governor of Hong Kong on the subject of mui-tsai and kindred matters?

Yes, Sir. It is the intention that the report of the committee, which will include the proposals mentioned, should be published in due course.

Royal Air Force

Night-Bombing Squadrons

16, 17 and 18.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air (1) what night-bomber squadrons have been re-equipped recently and with what type of machine; and when was the specification for the new type issued;

(2) how many night-bombing squadrons are to be left unequipped with more modern machines; and when was the specification for their present equipment issued;

(3) whether he can give an assurance that, in the formation of new night-bombing squadrons, they will be equipped only with modern machines?

Two squadrons were re-equipped with Heyfords last year and the year before to a specification issued in November, 1932, and a third is in process of being reequipped with Heyfords to a revised specification dated November, 1934. No night-bombing squadrons are to be left unequipped with more modern machines, and the second part of this question does not therefore arise. Under the policy of progressive re-armament which is in force, the aircraft of each squadron in turn are replaced by new types. New purchases will be confined to aircraft of the latest types, but I cannot give an assurance that the latest aircraft will always be allocated to new squadrons in preference to existing units.

May I ask, in view of the very great cost of replacing fighting machines, whether my right hon. Friend is satisfied that this very old-fashioned equipment for night bombing is sufficient?

I do not think that the latest 1934 specifications are at all old-fashioned.

Will my right hon. Friend tell me why he does not get on with this work rather more swiftly?

MatéRiel

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air what are the special steps that have been taken to provide the increased quantity of materiel for the expanding Air Force?

All preparations are in hand to ensure that the necessary equipment will be available to keep pace with the formation of new squadrons. A substantial increase in the financial provision for the supply of aircraft and engines will, of course, be required in 1935 and this will be reflected in the Estimates which will shortly be presented to the House.

I do not think I can give more details in answer to a question, but no time is being lost.

Aviation

Projected Trans-Atlantic Flying Service

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air what progress has been made up to date with the construction or trials of the flying boat or boats designed for use on the projected trans-Atlantic air service via the Azores and Bermuda in conjunction with Pan-American Airways; and whether, in view of the fact that this service cannot be commenced until both parties are ready to operate, although the Americans are now ready, he will take steps to ensure that all possible expedition is used in respect of the British part of the undertaking?

I understand that an order for the construction of a flying boat suitable for use on the Bermuda—New York section has beenfl placed by Imperial Airways. Preparations for British participation in the project are being expedited so far as possible, but my hon. and gallant Friend is under a misapprehension in suggesting that the United States company is now ready to operate a trans-Atlantic service via the Azores and Bermuda.

Is it not a fact that the Americans feel that we have let them down badly by not being ready to start with them?

I do not think so, because a great deal of groundwork and organisation has to be done, including the new airport at Bermuda, which has not yet been begun by the Bermudian Government; also permission has to be obtained from the Portuguese authorities to use the Azores.

Civil Aviation (Committee's Recommendations)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether he can make any statement as to when the accepted recommendations of the Gorell Committee on civil aviation are likely to be brought into force; and what legislation, if any, will be required for this purpose?

Effect has already been given administratively to certain of the minor recommendations of the Committee. As my hon. and gallant Friend will be aware, the major recommendations of policy involve consultation with outside interests and, in one important case, the submission to the Air Ministry by those interests of concrete proposals. I am unable, therefore, to give any definite date, but am hopeful that it may be possible to introduce the necessary legislation this Session, if the current pressure on Parliamentary time permits.

Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that progress is being made in the negotiations with these outside bodies?

I hope, as I say, that we shall be able to get a decision very shortly.

Will my right hon. Friend be in a position soon to make a statement on the constitution of the new Air Registration Board suggested?

City of London (Airport)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether his Department are assisting the City Corporation in their attempt to find a suitable airport in or near the City of London?

Yes, Sir, the Air Ministry has already furnished advice to the City Corporation in this matter, and will be happy to give further assistance, should the corporation so desire, in considering the results of any inspection of sites which may now be undertaken.

Questions

His Majesty's Silver Jubilee (Celebrations)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air if he can yet make any statement as to the forthcoming Jubilee review of the Royal Air Force; and if he will give an assurance that all possible facilities will be available for viewing by the public?

The general programme already announced in the Press includes a review of various units of the Royal Air Force by His Majesty at Mildenhall and Duxford on Saturday, 6th July. The question of the facilities which can be made available for the general public is under consideration.

Can my right hon. Friend give an assurance that the Air Ministry will do everything possible to let as many of the public as possible see the review?

Yes, but in view of the great number of aircraft that will be engaged it requires very careful consideration.

Will my right hon. Friend arrange, as on the occasion of the Mildenhall to Melbourne air race, for the public enclosures to be on the south and east sides of the aerodrome, which can be approached by alternative routes?

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether any decision has yet been taken as to what part, if any, the Territorial Army is to take in the forthcoming Jubilee celebrations?

The programme of celebrations for His Majesty's Silver Jubilee has only just been announced, and it will necessarily take some little time to make the detailed arrangements, but I can assure my hon. Friend that the importance of the Territorial Army taking part in the celebrations will not be overlooked.

Will my right hon. Friend be in a position to make an announcement by the time that the Estimates for his Department are introduced?

Has any decision been come to yet with regard to the participation, or otherwise, of cadets in these celebrations?

No decision has been come to yet, but here again they will not be overlooked.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether it is intended to grant an extra day's pay to ex-service men in receipt of disability pensions on 6th May to enable them to celebrate His Majesty's Jubilee?

Does that mean that it is intended to take no steps to enable disabled men to participate?

The question does not refer to disabled men but to ex-service men in general. We have every sympathy with them, but there is no reason why they should be singled out for special treatment.

The hon. Gentleman will see that the question refers to ex-service men in receipt of disability pensions.

These people have their pensions, and, if an extra day's payment were given, it would be so absurd and so small a sum that it would not enable them in any way to celebrate the day, and it would imply an enormous amount of extra work if it were spread over the whole community of pensioners.

Transport

Accidents, Chiswick High Road

asked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware that during the six months ended 30th September last 134 accidents were recorded in the Chiswick High Road; that of these 21 occurred within 200 feet of the junction with Turnham Green Terrace; and that the number of accidents at this junction is 50 per cent. more than at any other important junction in this road; and whether, in view of these facts, he is prepared to make a grant towards the improvement of this point?

Yes, Sir, and with a view to improving the position immediately I am to-day issuing a grant from the Road Fund towards the cost of widening Turnham Green Terrace. A grant is also being made towards the cost of providing traffic control signals at the junction of Chiswick High Road and Turnham Green Terrace.

Has my hon. Friend made inquiries to find out the reason for all these accidents at this particular spot?

Yes, I have made full inquiries and taken certain action, of which this is an example.

Is not the Minister aware that the accidents take place on a broad main highway and at mid-day, and are they not due to the speed of callous motorists?

I have been asked whether I would improve a certain junction, and my answer is "Yes, immediately."

Can my right hon. Friend say whether these accidents are due to speed or not?

Is it not true to say that a good many of these accidents are attributable to the inefficiency of the machines on the road?

Railway Level Crossings

25 and 26.

asked the Minister of Transport (1) whether he will look into the whole question of the uncontrolled level crossings between Cambridge and London to see that they are guarded in an efficient manner, as the inhabitants in places like Sawbridgeworth who use these crossings are apprehensive as to their safety while these crossings remain uncontrolled;

(2) in connection with the recent railway accident at the level-crossing at Wormley, Hertfordshire, whether he is aware that where a level-crossing exists on an occupation road that has not been dedicated to the public and which is used for public vehicular traffic to the knowledge of the railway company, the railway company is under duty to take proper precautions for the safety of persons using the crossing; and what he proposes to do to make the North Eastern Railway Company discharge their duty in the interests of the safety of the public?

I am advised that the legal position is that persons entitled to use occupation crossings are, in the absence of negligence on the part of the railway company, responsible for their own safety. I am sending the hon. and gallant Member a copy of the report of the inquiry into the Wormley accident, from which he will see that the Inspecting Officer makes certain recommendations both with regard to the particular crossing concerned, and also with regard to other crossings.

Does not the Minister really think it is about time we had a temperance test for drivers?

Road Communications, Scotland

asked the Minister of Transport whether, in view of the necessity for better communication between the North-east and West of Scotland and the widespread demand which exists for it, he will be prepared to give a grant for the construction of a road to connect Braemar with Kingussie through Glenfeshie and for the reconstruction of roads which would be necessary to complete the scheme?

I have invited highway authorities to submit schemes with which they are prepared to proceed immediately, and in the event of the appropriate highway authorities sending me definite proposals for constructing this road, I will give them my immediate attention.

Parking Regulations

asked the Minister of Transport whether he has considered bringing in a regulation to make it illegal to park a motor-car at the side of the road facing traffic except where one-side-only parking is enforced?

I propose, with the concurrence of Parliament, to strengthen the provision of the highway code which at present advises drivers not to leave their vehicles at night facing the wrong way unless the road is sufficiently lighted to prevent other users of the road being misled. I would like to take this opportunity of calling public attention to the fact that it is already an offence to leave a vehicle in a position likely to cause danger to other persons.

Motor Vehicles (Safety Glass)

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will take powers to require public vehicles registered before January, 1932, to have safety glass fitted to their windscreens or windows facing to the front; what is the present practice with regard to securing that safety glass will be fitted to the other windows in public vehicles apart from windscreens and windows facing to the front; and whether, in view of the desirability that all windows in public vehicles should be fitted with safety glass, he will take powers to see that this is done at an early date?

Regulations made in 1931 provide that all motor vehicles registered on or before 1st January, 1932, shall be fitted with safety glass, on all windows and windscreens facing to the front, by the 1st January, 1937, and as the industry has been informed that it will have until this date to make these expensive alterations I should not feel justified on the evidence before me in altering the arrangement now. Side windows are less liable to fracture in an accident than front windows, and the regulations do not require safety glass to be fitted to these, ordinary glass being more easily breakable to release passengers if the doors become jammed in an accident.

While that is no doubt reasonable with regard to private vehicles, surely public vehicles, which have great privileges in using the public thoroughfares and making profits out of the passengers, ought to be made as safe as possible for the passengers who use them; is the hon. Gentleman also aware that in the recent accident at Lewisham, to which I drew his attention, many of the passengers were seriously cut by broken glass?

Yes, Sir. I have every sympathy with what my hon. Friend says, but my predecessor arranged to give the trade a certain notice. The fitting of this safety glass is very expensive, and it has an effect upon the weight of the vehicle, sometimes bringing it over the permissible weight, and it would be an extreme burden upon the industry were I suddenly to change the arrangement made by my predecessor.

Highway Code

asked the Minister of Transport what is the present position with regard to the new draft of the Highway Code; to what interested bodies the draft has been sub- mitted before its completion; and whether he has in view any arrangements which will enable it to be supplied to pedestrians and drivers of horse-drawn vehicles and cyclists as well as to motorists?

I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a list of the 36 bodies who have been consulted on the Highway Code. I shall propose to make arrangements for its widest possible circulation when it has been approved by Parliament.

Will the hon. Gentleman consider circulating a draft of this code to Members of Parliament in order that we may have an opportunity of discussing it?

Yes, Sir; I propose to lay a copy of the draft, and I shall be glad to be of any assistance I can.

Following is the list:

Organisations to whom the new draft of the Highway Code was circulated.

County Councils' Association.

Association of Municipal Corporations.

Metropolitan Boroughs' Standing Joint Committee.

Urban District Councils' Association.

Rural District Councils' Association.

Association of County Councils in Scotland.

Convention of Royal Burghs in Scotland.

The London County Council.

The Corporation of City of London.

Transport and General Workers' Union.

National Union of Railwaymen.

The British Road Federation, Limited.

Motor Legislation Committee.

National Farmers' Union.

Royal Agricultural Society.

National Horse Association of Great Britain.

Cyclists' Touring Club.

National Cyclists' Union.

British Cycle and Motor Cycle Manufacturers' and Traders' Union, Limited.

Pedestrians' Association.

Railway Companies' Association.

Municipal Tramways (and Transport) Association.

Tramways, Light Railways (and Transport) Association.

Scottish Tramways and Transport Association.

London Passenger Transport Board.

National "Safety First" Association.

"Order of the Road."

Institute of Transport.

The Magistrates' Association.

The Coroners' Society of England.

The London County Coroners' Association.

The Roads Improvement Association.

Accident Offices' Association.

Lloyds Motor Underwriters' Association.

Two "non-tariff" Insurance Companies.

Street Improvement Schemes, Manchester

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will be willing to consider giving financial assistance towards the cost involved in improvements or extensions of some of the streets in Manchester?

Chinese Mission

asked the Minister of Transport whether he can give any information as to the recent visit to this country of a Chinese transport mission led by Mr. Yu Fei-peng, vice-minister of communications; by what Minister the mission was received; and whether any results are expected to accrue from it?

Yes, Sir. The mission to which my hon. Friend refers arrived in this country on 14th November last with the object of studying civil and military transport. The head of the mission was received by myself. Full arrangements were made for the mission to study all aspects of communications and transport, civil and military, in this country, including the railways, shipping, posts, telephones, and telegraphs, and also the B.B.C. The mission has now left this country. I understand that similar technical studies are being carried out on the Continent. As regards the results achieved, the mission will have been enabled to gain an insight into British methods of transport and the value of British material and return to their country with an appreciation of British enterprise in this sphere.

Wood Lane, West London (Railway Bridge)

asked the Minister of Transport what is the present position with regard to the erection of a bridge across the West London Exten- sion Railway, whereby the existing dead-end of Western Avenue at Wood Lane may be removed?

As soon as the negotiations now proceeding between the railway companies and the London County Council are concluded I hope it will be possible to commence construction.

Is the Minister aware of the great urgency of this matter, as this dead-end in Wood Lane is entirely responsible for the great congestion at Netting Hill Gate?

Yes, Sir. I hope that my answer shows that I appreciate that point.

Silence Zones

asked the Minister of Transport whether he would be prepared to consider applications from local authorities for the experimental extension of the silence zones in their own areas to the whole of the 24 hours.

Yes, Sir. I am prepared to give favourable consideration to any applications from local authorities for the experimental extension of the silence zones in their own areas to the whole of the 24 hours.

Would the hon. Gentleman consider experimenting on the same lines in London?

A-Licences

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will take steps, by legislation or otherwise, to enable an A-licence issued just prior to the death of the licensee to be transferred to the widow without full payment being made in respect of the transfer of the licence?

I will certainly, in connection with any opportunity for amending legislation, give weight to my hon. Friend's suggestion. In the meanwhile I may perhaps remind him that the fee for these licences is only 15s. a vehicle a year.

Hyde Park (Albert Gate)

asked the First Commissioner of Works whether he will now have Albert Gate re-opened in order to diminish the congestion of traffic at Hyde Park Corner, which has increased during the winter and will get worse with the growing volume of traffic in the spring and summer?

I have been in communication with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department, and I have agreed that before a final decision is made, the experiment of keeping Albert Gate closed should be continued for a further period.

In view of the fact that this causes congestion at Hyde Park Corner, will my right hon. Friend collaborate with the Minister of Transport and make an opening into the Park opposite Sloane Street instead of as at present, at Albert Gate?

In this matter I do whatever the police, who are the traffic authorities, ask. I am informed that the shutting of Albert Gate has not increased congestion at Hyde Park Corner. Any suggestion which is given to me for improving traffic in that part of London I will take immediately into consideration.

Are we to understand that the closing of one route does not increase congestion at another route?

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, during the months Albert Gate has been closed, the police report any improvement of traffic in the centre of Knightsbridge to make up for the increased congestion at both the eastern and western ends, especially at Hyde Park Corner; and whether he will now take steps to re-open Albert Gate?

The Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis informs me that the closing of Albert Gate has resulted in a marked improvement in the traffic conditions in Knightsbridge, Sloane Street and Brompton Road. There has been a slight increase in traffic at certain times of the day at Hyde Park Corner, but I understand that this cannot be said to be wholly or even mainly attributable to the closing of the Gate, since there has been a progressive increase at this point over a period of years. In any event police observation shows that the delays at Hyde Park Corner on account of this additional traffic are by no means so great as those experienced in Knightsbridge, Sloane Street and Brompton Road, when the Albert Gate was open. In these circumstances the Commissioner is of the opinion—in which I concur—that the experiment of keeping the Gate closed should be continued.

Do I understand that the Albert Gate is going to be permanently closed, and will the right hon. Gentleman make a survey at special hours of the day especially in the evening, in order to see whether congestion has not really been increased at Hyde Park Gate?

In answer to the first part of the question, it is an experiment, and it will depend upon the result of the experiment whether it will be permanently closed or not. All the circumstances are being closely watched, and, when we are able to report and decide, the House will be informed.

If the closing of one gate is good, would it not be helpful to close three or four more?

Questions

Post Office (Telephone Service)

asked the Postmaster-General whether he has given consideration to the establishment of a telephone exchange at banks; and, if so, with what result?

I am glad to say that a sufficient number of applications has now been received to justify service being given at normal tariff rentals to subscribers in the banks area. The service will be provided from an adjoining exchange until the conditions make it desirable to open a local exchange.

Tower of London (Entrance)

asked the First Commissioner of Works what proposals are contemplated for improving the entrance and making suitable gates at the Tower of London; and whether the designs have the approval of the Royal Fine Arts Commission?

The design is now being prepared for an improved entrance with wrought iron gates to the Tower of London. As the hon. and gallant Member knows, the present entrance leaves much to be desired. The design when ready will be submitted to the Royal Fine Arts Commission.

I think the expenditure will be down as part of the Estimate for my Department.

Scotland

Poor Relief

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what was the cost of able-bodied relief for the years ending May, 1931, 1933 and 1934; what is the anticipated cost for the year ending May, 1935, in Scotland; whether he is aware that most of this financial burden is borne by the local authorities in the distressed areas of central Scotland; and what action he intends to take to assist them in their financial difficulties?

The cost of able-bodied relief in Scotland for the years ending 15th May, 1931, 1933 and 1934 was £653,107, £1,512,259 and £2,059,665 respectively. With regard to the anticipated cost for the current financial year, no reliable estimate can be given, but the cost up to the 15th January, the latest date available, was £1,671,357. The answer to the third part of the question is in the affirmative. With regard to the last part, I would refer the hon. Member to the statement made last night by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour.

Peterhead Prison

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he intends to hold an inquiry into the administration of Peterhead Prison?

The inquiry now proceeding includes investigation into the existing arrangements for the inspection of all Scottish prisons including Peterhead. When I have received the report I shall consider whether any further inquiries are necessary.

Is it not the case that the right hon. Gentleman promised an inquiry into the administration of Peterhead at the time that he decided that the chains had to be taken from Ramensky, the prisoner who had been punished in that way?

Oh, no, Sir. I have no recollection of making any such promise or of giving any such undertaking. If the hon. Member will call my attention to any words of mine, either in a letter or in this House, which convey that impression, I shall certainly be glad to look into it forthwith.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he was aware that, when on the question concerning Barlinnie Prison he made an announcement that he was setting up an inquiry into the administration of Scottish prisons, stated at its face value, it implied an inquiry into the administration of Peterhead; and, as the discipline in this prison is certainly worse than that in any other prison of which we know, I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to look back on the promise he made at that date?

I think that the hon. Member is confusing two things. I gave an undertaking to review the existing prison regulations, which I am presently doing, but the question of the hon. Member is directed to the whole question of administration. There is a big difference between the whole administration of Scottish prisons and the particular prison regulations which govern day-to-day management. I have already started an inquiry into the whole question of prison regulations.

Do I understand that the right hon. Gentleman is inquiring into the regulations as applied to Peterhead Prison as well as to other prisons?

Trade and Commerce

Cotton Exports

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, having now had twelve months to consider the question of a bounty on cotton exports, he can, in view of the continuing amount of unemployment, make some favourable announcement?

As my right hon. Friend has already indicated in previous replies to my hon. Friend, he does not see his way to contemplate the institution of a system of bounty on cotton exports.

Census of Production

asked the President of the Board of Trade when the necessary Order for a Census of Production in 1935 will be laid before the House; and whether he will introduce legislation, in collaboration with the Minister of Labour, to amend Section 3 (1) of the Census of Production Act, 1906, whereby the Board of Trade are precluded from requiring compulsory statements of the amount of wages paid?

The Order for a Census of Production in respect of the year 1935 was laid before the House on the 12th December. As regards the last part of the question I regret that for the time being I can add nothing to my previous reply of the 3rd December last.

Trade Balances

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can give the respective balances of trade with all countries with which agreements have been negotiated since the dates thereof up to the nearest convenient time?

I am having a statement prepared, which I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT as soon as possible.

Import Duties

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether any applications for increased duty have been received from British industries affected by trade treaties with foreign countries?

I am informed that inquiries of this nature have been received by the Import Duties Advisory Committee, but that it is the practice of that body to point out that no useful purpose will be served by making such applications.

May I ask my hon. Friend whether the Import Duties Advisory Committee communicates with the Board of Trade or with his Department such instances, so that they may be informed as to the harsh way that, from time to time the system is working?

It is not the duty of the Import Duties Advisory Committee to advise us of the applications they have received, and it is not in their power to go against treaties which have been entered into by His Majesty's Government.

My hon. Friend does not quite understand my question. Do they communicate with the Department of my hon. Friend so that his Department may be aware of the circumstances which have arisen as the result of trade agreements?

Questions

Armaments Inquiry

asked the Prime Minister whether he can now state the position with regard to the proposed Royal Commission on the manufacture of, and traffic in, arms; whether a chairman has yet been found; who will constitute the commission; and when it will commence its investigation?

I expect to be able to make a statement at a very early date as to the composition and terms of reference of the proposed Royal Commission.

Does the Prime Minister expect to have the report of this commission in the lifetime of the present Government?

Is there an able, competent and serious woman who could serve on the commission, and is it not possible to put her on the commission at the earliest possible moment, for a change?

Perhaps the Noble Lady will wait for the announcement, which will be very soon, and, if she will look at the list, I think she will find it satisfactory.

Flintshire (Lord-Lieutenancy)

asked the Prime Minister whether he will make a statement regarding the proposed change in the Lieutenancy of Flintshire?

I am not aware of any change in the appointment of the Lord-Lieutenancy of Flintshire.

Has the attention of the right hon. Gentleman been drawn to the statement issued in the Press that Mr. James Platt was to be appointed Lord Lieutenant of Flintshire in the following year, and that he had a letter from one of His Majesty's Ministers confirming that?

I have seen no letter. I am the Minister solely responsible for transactions like this, and my answer is the answer I have just given.

Has the right hon. Gentleman had in contemplation before this question was put on the Paper, any change in the Lieutenancy of Flintshire?

Coal Industry

District Schemes

asked the Secretary for Mines whether he is satisfied that the recent amendments to the district schemes under the Coal Mines Act, 1930, have succeeded, or are proving reasonably successful, in preventing the wholesale evasions of the terms of that Act that have been taking place for so long, particularly in the export districts?

The amendments have only been in force for six weeks, and that is far too short a time on which to base any judgment of their effect.

Is the hon. Gentleman convinced that these evasions are not taking place, or that they are still taking place? If he imagines that they are still taking place, will he not consider taking the course of having independent chairmen of the district boards appointed?

I propose to call for a report on the working of the various schemes in due course.

Can the hon. Gentleman give me an answer to the second part of my supplementary question, as to whether he will consider the appointment of independent chairmen?

That is a particular point which really does not arise out of the question on the Paper.

"Del Credere" Agencies

asked the Secretary for Mines whether he can give the House any information regarding the system, commonly known in the coal trade as del credeo, whereby merchants are appointed as agents for the sale of coal on condition that they do not sell at less than the minimum price fixed under the Coal Mines Act, 1930?

I assume that my hon. Friend is referring to "del credere" agencies. They provide that the agent guarantees to his principal the due payment or performance by those with whom he deals on credit as agent. The agent becomes liable to his principal upon failure of the debtor to pay. Under the ordinary type of agency, the coalowner is responsible for the action of the agent; therefore, any sale by an agent at below a minimum price renders the coalowner liable to penalties under the terms of the district scheme.

Has any case been brought to the notice of the hon. Gentleman where such liability has been incurred, or where such evasion has occurred?

Overtime

asked the Secretary for Mines whether he has had any further communication with the Miners' Federation with regard to over- time in pits; and if he proposes to have any similar investigations to those he had in Lancashire in any other part of the British coalfield?

The answer to the first part of the question is, No. With regard to the second part, a special investigation is now being carried out in Scotland, and will, I hope, be completed by the end of next month. This district was selected at the request of the Mine-workers' Federation.

Government Departments

Ministry of Mines (Lord Hyndley)

asked the Secretary for Mines what position Lord Hyndley holds in his Department; what salary he receives, if any; and with what firms dealing directly or indirectly with the production or sale of coal he is connected, and in what capacity?

I am obliged to my hon. Friend for providing me with an opportunity of informing the House of the invaluable services which Lord Hyndley is good enough to give to the Mines Department in an entirely voluntary capacity. He has been Commercial Adviser, under successive Governments, for the last 14 years. I hope that the Department and the Government will long continue to have the advantage of the impartial and disinterested advice on all commercial coal trade matters which it has been the good fortune of successive Ministers to receive at all times from him. As regards the latter part of the question, I would refer my hon. Friend to the usual reference books.

On a point of Order. I am not clear about the Minister's answer, and I wanted to ask whether he would make clear the latter part of the question.

Association of Ex-Service Civil Servants

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he will make inquiry as to the numbers of members of the paper-maker and messenger grades who are members of the Association of Ex-service Civil Servants, with a view to the consideration of official recognition of that association in any negotiations concerning the grades in question?

No, Sir. In connection with a recent application by this association it was found that the membership claimed was too small to justify the grant of joint recognition; but the association was informed that it would be open to them to apply again for recognition in the event of a considerable increase of membership in the grades in question.

Questions

Census

asked the Minister of Health whether he can yet state whether it is proposed to make an Order-in-Council, under the Act of 1920, for a census in 1936; and, if so, whether he will introduce legislation requiring local authorities to permit census service on the part of their officials?

In answer to the first question the position is that the Government have decided, after careful consideration, that there are not sufficient grounds for taking a census in 1936. In these circumstances, the second question does not arise.

Housing (Local Authorities' Houses)

52 and 53.

asked the Minister of Health (1) what instructions have been issued to local authorities by his Department to the effect that before proceeding with any further house building the authorities should see that existing corporation houses are fully and properly occupied; whether such instructions have been forwarded to the Sheffield city corporation housing estates committee; and to what extent such instructions have been carried out;

(2) what instructions he has issued to local authorities in regard to imposing a means test upon applicants for houses owned and erected by the authorities; and what is the maximum income allowed for persons occupying four-, five-, and six-roomed houses, respectively?

The attention of local authorities has from time to time been drawn to the importance of the selection of tenants in a manner which will avoid any abuse of State and rate contributions and the existence of unoccupied municipal houses would obviously be a factor to be considered by a corporation in preparing proposals for further building and by the Minister in considering those proposals. On neither of these matters, however, has my right hon. Friend issued, or indeed has he any power to issue, instructions. The remaining parts of the questions therefore do not arise.

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether or not it is the opinion of the Ministry that a general comb-out of corporation estates is now advisable, and whether or not special restrictions can be imposed by his Department as to the application of a means test by those corporations to applicants for corporation houses?

I cannot answer my hon. Friend's question as to what is the opinion of my Department. I can only say that the latest information on this subject was given by myself to my hon. Friend a few months ago.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that only two days ago information was published in the Press to the effect that the Minister had issued instructions for comb-out operations, and also for the application of a means test to applicants for corporation houses? Can he say whether that applies to all estates?

Cream Prices

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether his attention has been called to the prices of cream sold wholesale to the 31st March next, fixed at, for daily quantities, from 51 to 151 gallons, 9s. 3d. in England, whereas the retailers' combine London price is 7d. a gill or approximately 18s. 8d. a gallon, thus showing a gross profit of 100 per cent.; and whether he proposes to take any steps to secure more reasonable prices of cream for the public and thus ensure the increased consumption which dairy farmers desire?

I am aware of the wholesale price of cream as indicated in the first part of my hon. Friend's question, and that there is a considerable margin between wholesale and retail prices of cream in many parts of the country. I regret, however, that I have no power to take any steps in the direction suggested in the last part of the question.

Herring Industry

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is aware that smoked brown trout are being imported from Scandinavia and sold at London restaurants and that they make an excellent dish; and whether he will have them sampled and make representations to the Herring Fisheries Board, with a view to their learning the process and starting a new smoked-herring industry in this country, by means of which herrings so smoked would find a better market than kippers and bloaters?

I am aware of the article referred to, and the process of cure does not appear to differ materially from that employed in this country in the preparation of what are known as Buckling Herring. I shall be happy in due course to bring my noble Friend's suggestion before the Herring Industry Board.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that high-dried smoked herring have been produced in Great Yarmouth since the days of Queen Elizabeth, and that during her reign Nash wrote a famous book about smoked herring?

I am afraid I have not the same range of information as my hon. Friend has.

asked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether he can make a statement on the scope and progress of the inquiry instituted in November last year into the possibility of new outlets for herring Overseas?

A memorandum of inquiry as to possible new markets for cured British herring was prepared in conjunction with the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries and the Scottish Office, and has been despatched to 49 posts abroad. Almost the whole world is included, with the exception of the Northern European areas and North America, where the conditions are well known. Owing to the scope of the inquiry, it is not expected that reports resulting from these investigations will be available for some little time; but officers have been asked to report not later than the end of next month, in order that the information may be received in advance of the new fishing season.

Will my hon. and gallant Friend include in these inquiries the question of an extension of trade in the United States, which is a very important market?

Territorial Army (Anti-Gas Defence Training)

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether anti-gas training forms part of the training of Territorial units; and, if so, how many units are supplied with gas masks?

The future training of the Territorial Army in anti-gas defence is a large and important subject, which it is impossible to deal with adequately in answer to Parliamentary questions. I therefore propose to make a full statement when introducing the forthcoming Army Estimates.

House of Commons (Refreshment Department)

asked the hon. Member for Ipswich, as Chairman of the Kitchen Committee, whether there has been any increase during the last four weeks in the demand for fresh herring?

No figures are available for the last four weeks, as the House has only been sitting for just over two weeks. During this time, however, the demand for herring has remained normal.

Would not the demand for herring increase if the price charged for them were reduced?

Will my hon. Friend consider whether the demand would not increase if, perhaps, other and more attractive methods of cooking were adopted?

That, Sir, and all other relevant herring, have been and will be taken into consideration.

Kenya (Economic Development)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has yet received the report of the economic development committee in Kenya Colony; and what action it is proposed to take on it?

Political Parties (Uniforms)

asked the Home Secretary whether any conclusion has yet been reached with regard to the desirability, or otherwise, of taking steps to limit the use of political uniforms in this country?

This question has not been overlooked, but, in view of the state of the legislative programme, I am afraid that it must remain in abeyance for the present.

Drunkenness (Methylated Spirits)

asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been drawn to the official report of the police to the justices' annual licensing meeting at Hitchin on 5th February, that of 16 males and one female convicted of drunkenness in the past year eight cases, all relating to non-residents, were due to drinking methylated spirits; and whether he can now make a further statement on the matter?

I have read the news report which the hon. and gallant Member was good enough to send me, and I have made certain inquiries from which I understand that the eight persons in question were all of the tramp class, and that the police have warned all retailers in the county of the necessity for exercising special care in selling methylated spirits. With regard to the second part of the question, I am not at present in a position to add to the answer which I gave to the hon. and gallant Member's question on the 3rd December last.

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that cheaper beer does not stop people from drinking methylated spirits and only increases drunkenness throughout the country?

Anthrax (Imported Goats' Hair)

asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware of the danger of infection with anthrax, with a high mortality-rate, from imported goats' hair; and whether he will take the necessary steps to ensure that all goats' hair imported into this country is thoroughly disinfected?

Yes, Sir. I am aware of the danger, and the question of extending the present arrangements for the disinfection of goats' hair has for some time past been engaging my close attention. The Bradford Chamber of Commerce have made certain representations on points of detail which are now under consideration. In these circumstances, I should be obliged if my hon. Friend would repeat his question in a week's time?

Has the right hon. Gentleman noticed in the return that the only goat hair anthrax germ is not imported from Russia?

Fortified Wines

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been called to the fact that raw foreign spirits blended with cheap foreign wines continue to be sold to the public at a price which gives them a preference of 300 per cent. against matured British whisky; whether his information indicates the increasing consumption of such blends; and whether he can give the imports of raw foreign spirits in each of the last three years?

I am aware that, as has been the case for many years, wines fortified in bond within the limits allowed by law are on sale to the public, and that the prices per bottle are generally considerably lower than the price of whisky; but I may say that the fortification of imported wines is by no means confined to wines of foreign origin nor the means of fortification to foreign spirits. There are some indications of an increase in the consumption of fortified wines. With regard to the last part of the question, I regret that no figures are available.

Unemployment

Assistance Regulations

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the Government's decision to postpone the transfer of able-bodied relief from the local authorities to the Unemployment Assistance Board on 1st March, he will state if local authorities are to be indemnified for the cost, as most of their budgets were planned on the basis of the existing law; and whether he will consider the advisability of granting the request of the Scottish distressed areas that financial responsibility for able-bodied relief should be taken over by the Government as from 1st October last?

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether in view of the postponement of the appointed day on which the Unemployment Assistance Board is to take over responsibility for able-bodied unemployed persons outside the scope of insurance, he will assure local authorities that they will be reimbursed for the additional outlay necessarily falling upon them owing to that postponement?

My right hon. Friend proposes to discuss with representatives of local authorities the financial questions which arise on the postponement of the appointed day, and until he has done so he will not be in a position to make a statement on the subject. In reply to the last part of the question by the hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood), my right hon. Friend is not prepared to reopen the question of grants for periods prior to the 1st March.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that only yesterday a delegation from all the Scottish local authorities, in conjunction with the English local authorities, were unanimous that they understood that the Government had guaranteed them from 1st October last, and what is the Government going to do to assure these local authorities that they will not break their word so that the authorities will not go back to their districts and tell the people that the Government is not worth a damn?

Can the hon. Gentleman tell me how soon these negotiations between the Chancellor and the local authorities are likely to commence?

asked the Minister of Labour whether he will communicate with the Unemployment Assistance Board with a view to securing the presence of a responsible official at each of the larger centres, empowered to give information to the local Members of Parliament with regard to the working of the regulations?

I am informed by the board that the officers in charge of their local offices will be prepared to furnish Members with information in regard to any individual cases in which they are interested.

74 and 75.

asked the Minister of Labour (1) whether he will see that in any new or amended regulations dealing with unemployment assistance a separate household is defined in such a way as to include persons living alone in separate dwellings;

(2) whether, in view of the hardship involved in the practice of the Unemployment Assistance Board defining a household as two or more persons living and sleeping in the same dwelling, he will say by virtue of what authority the board makes this definition?

The matters referred to in these questions will receive full consideration in the review of the present situation which has been promised.

Appeal Tribunal (Potteries)

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that the city of Stoke-on-Trent comprises the whole of the area of the Hanley district under the Unemployment Assistance Act, with the exception of the borough of Newcastle-under-Lyme and some small outside districts; that such city of 280,000 inhabitants is the chief industrial portion of the area; whether he has considered the resolution of protest from the city council against the appointment of the chairman and reserved chairman of the appeal tribunal, on the ground that they do not reside in the city; and whether he will reconsider such appointments, with a view to securing that persons acquainted with the needs of the city are appointed?

I presume that my hon. Friend has in mind the area dealt with by the appeal tribunal for the Potteries, which covers a wide area outside the city of Stoke-on-Trent and includes Stafford, Newcastle-under-Lyme and Leek. My right hon. Friend has received a communication from the city council with regard to the chairman and reserve chairmen of this tribunal, but he has no reason to believe that the gentlemen in question are not familiar with industrial and social conditions in the area.

Does any chairman or vice-chairman of the tribunal come from the city of Stoke-on-Trent?

I could not say without notice, but, if the hon. Member cares to have a word with me, I shall be very glad to communicate with him the reasons which actuate the persons appointing these gentlemen.

Would it not be better if all appointments were made from citizens resident in the area in which they are going to preside?

Government of India Bill

Committee Stage (Time-Table)

There are two or three questions I wish to put to the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister, and I will put the one in connection with the Committee on the Government of India Bill first. Has the right hon. Gentleman a statement to make as to the conclusions of the Committee that has been considering the Procedure?

Yes, Sir. The Committee representing all parties and sections, which the Lord President of the Council announced on Monday would be set up to consider a Time-table for the Committee stage of the Government of India Bill, met yesterday under the chairmanship of the Chairman of Ways and Means. I am pleased to be able to inform the House that an agreement has been arrived at under which a Time-table has been drawn up allotting the 26 days to the different portions of the Bill during the Committee stage. The proposed Time-table will be circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

The Committee will remain in being and review the working of the programme from time to time. The remaining 4 of the 30 days allocated by the Government for the Committee stage, which are to be held in reserve, will be used if it should appear as the Bill proceeds that any apportionment made under the Time-table is inadequate.

The Government share the view held in all quarters of the House that it ought to be possible to secure adequate discussion of this important measure under the normal Parliamentary procedure without recourse to a Guillotine resolution. It is not now proposed to ask the House to pass a Time-table motion for the Committee stage of the Government of India Bill.

The only Motion which the Committee has agreed should be proposed to the House is one providing for a series of consecutive Clauses, to which no Amendment is proposed to be put as one Question instead of a separate Question for each Clause, and further providing that any opposed Private Business set down by the Chairman of Ways and Means for consideration on any day when the Government of India Bill is being considered should be taken at the end of the sitting instead of at 7.30 p.m.

The Government welcome the co-operation which has been given by all parties and sections in reaching this arrangement, which is a practical and business-like method of procedure agreed upon without prejudice to the views held by any party or section on the merits of the Bill.

In commending this arrangement to the House, I would like to express the hope that, when we come to the Committee stage of the Government of India Bill, Members will co-operate in working the time-table. It would facilitate the arrangements for the Committee stage if Members who have Amendments to propose would table them as soon as possible.

May I congratulate the Prime Minister upon taking a notable step towards reviving the ancient flexibility of the House of Commons Procedure?

There are only two things I want to say. The last part of the statement made it clear that we all maintain our position of opposition to certain portions, and also to the whole of the Bill. I would like to suggest to the Committee that they should also consider a voluntary time-limit to speeches. I am not suggesting that there should be any coercion, but those who have a prior right to speak or are supposed to have a prior right to speak should have some consideration for the multitude of Members who will want to take part in the Debates. We on these benches also want to congratulate the Chairman of Ways and Means, and the Committee and the Government upon having brought about so happy an arrangement in reference to this very contentious Bill.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, in introducing the proposed time-table, it is to be assumed that the House will each day rise at the normal time of 11 o'clock?

I hope the House will leave that matter to our discretion. All I can say is that in a general way we will work it in exactly the same spirit that we have worked in coming to an arrangement on the Bill. But I cannot say that on no day will there be the suspension of the 11 o'Clock Rule.

Will it be the intention to put to the Committee with other Clauses as one Question a Clause to leave out which there is an Amendment down? There are down on the paper notices to leave out Clauses, but technically of course they are not Amendments.

Private Bills usually come on at 7.30 p.m., but under the proposed arrangement they are to come on at the end of each day's Sitting. Could it be arranged that they shall be taken at eleven o'clock so that in the event of the suspension of the Eleven o'Clock Rule they will not come on at the fag end of business? I think that would be fair.

I hope that that will also be left to us. We will do our very best to arrange business amicably.

May I have an answer to my question? Technically speaking, a notice on the Order Paper to leave out a Clause is not an Amendment and is not a Motion that is called. I want to know whether in the minds of the people governing this procedure that will be treated as an Amendment or not?

I would suggest to the hon. Member that he should wait until the Motion is on the Order Paper.

Following is the proposed time-table:

Government of India Bill: Committee stage. Allocation of Time.

Proceedings on Instructions and Parts I and II

6 days.

Parts III and IV

3 days.

Parts V to VIII both inclusive

4 days.

Parts IX to XIII both inclusive

4 days.

Parts XIV and XV

2 days.

New Clauses and Schedules 1 to 4 both inclusive

3 days.

Schedules 5 to 15 both inclusive, new Schedules, postponed clauses (if any) and all other matter necessary to complete the Committee stage

4 days.

Total

26 days.

Business of the House

Will the Prime Minister say what business it is proposed to take to-day, and whether it is certain that the Motion on the Order Paper in the names of my hon. Friends and myself—

"That, by their lack of any policy for providing employment for the great and growing number of idle workers and by having misled this House as to the financial effect of the Unemployment Assistance Regulations for the maintenance of the unemployed, His Majesty's Government have forfeited the confidence of the country,"—

will be taken to-morrow? Will the right hon. Gentleman also state the business for Friday?

In regard to the business for to-morrow, the Motion to which the right hon. Gentleman refers will be taken. There is an alteration in the business for to-day. Amendments were tabled last night to the Unemployment Assistance (Temporary Provisions) Bill, and the Government accordingly decided, in view of the urgency of the Bill, to take it as first order to-day. We shall not therefore take the Housing (Scotland) Bill to-day. I hope to be in a position to-morrow to announce the day when the Second Reading of that Bill will be taken. After the first two Orders relating to the Unemployment Assistance (Temporary Provisions) Bill have been disposed of, we shall take the following orders:

Consolidated Fund (No. 1) Bill, Committee and remaining stages; Government of India [Money] Resolution, Report; Committee Stage of Supplementary Estimates for the Civil Service Commission, the Land Registry, Scientific Investigation, Stationery and Printing and India Services.

The Supplementary Estimate relating to approved schools, England and Wales, will be postponed until Friday.

To-morrow, the Government intend to provide time for the discussion of the Vote of Censure relating to Unemployment and Unemployment Assistance, which has been tabled by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition.

As regards the business for Friday, we shall take the Second Reading of the Post Office (Amendment) Bill, and the Committee Stage of the necessary Money Resolution; Post Office and Telegraph (Money) Resolution, Committee Stage, and Superannuation [Money] Resolution, Committee; further consideration of outstanding Civil Supplementary Estimates; consideration of Motions to approve Import Duties Orders Nos. 1, 2, 3 and 4, of 1935, and, if there is time, other Orders on the Order Paper.

I should like to ask the Prime Minister when the Housing (Scotland) Bill will be taken?

That announcement will be made as soon as possible. It will probably be made tomorrow.

Is it absolutely necessary that the whole time of the House should be wasted to-morrow on a Vote of Censure which is not even supported by the Opposition who have put it down?

Motion made, and Question put,

"That the Proceedings on Government Business be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[ The Prime Minister. ]

The House divided: Ayes, 247; Noes, 62.

Division No. 47.]

AYES.

[3.54 p.m.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

Nicholson, Rt. Hn. W. G. (Petersf'ld)

Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G.

Glossop, C. W. H.

Normand, Rt. Hon. Wilfrid

Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'k'nh'd)

Gluckstein, Louis Halle

North, Edward T.

Allen, William (Stoke-on-Trent)

Glyn, Major Sir Ralph G. C.

Nunn, William

Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

Goff, Sir Park

Oman, Sir Charles William C.

Apsley, Lord

Graham, Sir F. Fergus (C'mb'rl'd, N.)

O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh

Aske, Sir Robert William

Grattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas

Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William G. A.

Assheton, Ralph

Grigg, Sir Edward

Orr Ewing, I. L.

Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)

Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E.

Patrick, Colin M.

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Guy, J. C. Morrison

Peake, Osbert

Balfour, Capt. Harold (I. of Thanet)

Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

Pearson, William G.

Balniel, Lord

Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)

Peat, Charles U.

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Harbord, Arthur

Petherick, M.

Barton, Capt. Basil Kelsey

Harvey, George (Lambeth, Kenningt'n)

Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

Beauchamp, Sir Brograve Campbell

Haslam, Henry (Horncastle)

Peto, Geoffrey K. (W'verh'pt'n, Bilston)

Beaumont, Hon. R.E.B. (Portsm'th, C.)

Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.

Pike, Cecil F.

Benn, Sir Arthur Shirley

Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth)

Potter, John

Bennett, Capt. Sir Ernest Nathaniel

Hore-Belisha, Leslie

Procter, Major Henry Adam

Blaker, Sir Reginald

Howard, Tom Forrest

Pybus, Sir John

Blindell, James

Howitt, Dr. Alfred B.

Radford, E. A.

Borodale, Viscount

Hudson, Robert Spear (Southport)

Ramsay, Capt. A. H. M. (Midlothian)

Boulton, W. W.

Hume, Sir George Hopwood

Ramsbotham, Herwald

Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

Hurd, Sir Percy

Rathbone, Eleanor

Bower, Commander Robert Tatton

Hurst, Sir Gerald B.

Reid, David D. (County Down)

Brass, Captain Sir William

Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C.)

Rhys, Hon. Charles Arthur U.

Broadbent, Colonel John

Jesson, Major Thomas E.

Rickards, George William

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Joel, Dudley J. Barnato

Rosbotham, Sir Thomas

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C. (Berks., Newb'y)

Jones, Lewis (Swansea, West)

Ross, Ronald D.

Buchan, John

Ker, J. Campbell

Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)

Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

Kerr, Hamilton W.

Russell, Albert (Kirkcaldy)

Burgin, Dr. Edward Leslie

Keyes, Admiral Sir Roger

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Burnett, John George

Kirkpatrick, William M.

Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury)

Cadogan, Hon. Edward

Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton

Rutherford, John (Edmonton)

Caine, G. R. Hall-

Latham, Sir Herbert Paul

Rutherford, Sir John Hugo (Liverp'l)

Campbell-Johnston, Malcolm

Law, Sir Alfred

Salmon, Sir Isidore

Caporn, Arthur Cecil

Leckie, J. A.

Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham)

Carver, Major William H.

Leech, Dr. J. W.

Samuel, M. R. A. (W'ds'wth, Putney).

Castlereagh, Viscount

Leighton, Major B. E. P.

Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D.

Cayzer, Sir Charles (Chester, City)

Lennox-Boyd, A. T.

Savery, Samuel Servington

Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

Levy, Thomas

Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.)

Lewis, Oswald

Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston)

Lindsay, Kenneth (Kilmarnock)

Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)

Chorlton, Alan Ernest Leofric

Lindsay, Noel Ker

Smith, Sir Robert (Ab'd'n & K'dine, C.)

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Cunliffe-

Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor)

Clayton, Sir Christopher

Lloyd, Geoffrey

Soper, Richard

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hn. G. (Wd. Gr'n)

Spencer, Captain Richard A.

Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'ndsw'th)

Spender-Clay, Rt. Hon. Herbert H.

Collins, Rt. Hon. Sir Godfrey

Loder, Captain J. de Vere

Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westmorland)

Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J.

Loftus, Pierce C.

Stevenson, James

Conant, R. J. E.

Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander

Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

Cook, Thomas A.

Lumley, Captain Lawrence R.

Stones, James

Cooke, Douglas

Mabane, William

Stourton, Hon. John J.

Cooper, A. Duff

MacAndrew, Lieut.-Col. C. G. (Partick)

Strickland, Captain W. F.

Copeland, Ida

MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr)

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir Murray F.

Courthope, Colonel Sir George L.

McCorquodale, M. S.

Sutcliffe, Harold

Craddock, Sir Reginald Henry

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham)

Templeton, William P.

Cranborne, Viscount

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)

Cross, R. H.

McEwen, Captain J. H. F.

Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)

Crossley, A. C.

McKie, John Hamilton

Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)

Culverwell, Cyril Tom

McLean, Major Sir Alan

Thorp, Linton Theodore

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston)

Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

Davison, Sir William Henry

Macpherson, Rt. Hon. Sir Ian

Touche, Gordon Cosmo

Denman, Hon. R. D.

Macquisten, Frederick Alexander

Train, John

Doran, Edward

Magnay, Thomas

Tree, Ronald

Drewe, Cedric

Maitland, Adam

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Duggan, Hubert John

Makins, Brigadier-General Ernest

Turton, Robert Hugh

Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.)

Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M.

Wallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey)

Dunglass, Lord

Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

Eales, John Frederick

Marsden, Commander Arthur

Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)

Eden, Rt. Hon. Anthony

Martin, Thomas B.

Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.

Elliot, Rt. Hon. Walter

Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John

Wedderburn, Henry James Scrymgeour-

Ellis, Sir R. Geoffrey

Mills, Sir Frederick (Leyton, E.)

Whiteside, Borras Noel H.

Elliston, Captain George Sampson

Milne, Charles

Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

Elmley, Viscount

Mitchell, Harold P. (Br'tf'd & Chisw'k)

Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)

Emmott, Charles E. G. C.

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Emrys-Evans, P. V.

Monsell, Rt. Hon. Sir B. Eyres

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Everard, W. Lindsay

Moore, Lt.-Col. Thomas C. R. (Ayr)

Womersley, Sir Walter

Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Worthington, Dr. John V.

Fleming, Edward Lascelles

Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)

Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (S'v'oaks)

Fox, Sir Gifford

Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univer'ties)

Fremantle, Sir Francis

Morrison, William Shephard

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Fuller, Captain A. G.

Moss, Captain H. J.

Sir Frederick Thomson and Sir

Ganzoni, Sir John

Munro, Patrick

George Penny.

Gault, Lieut.-Col. A. Hamilton

Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.

NOES.

Attlee, Clement Richard

Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan)

Mason, David M. (Edinburgh, E.)

Banfield, John William

Griffiths, George A. (Yorks, W. Riding)

Maxton, James

Batey, Joseph

Grundy, Thomas W.

Parkinson, John Allen

Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale)

Hamilton, Sir R.W. (Orkney & Z'tl'nd)

Rea, Walter Russell

Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield)

Holdsworth, Herbert

Rothschild, James A. de

Buchanan, George

Janner, Barnett

Salter, Dr. Alfred

Cape, Thomas

Jenkins, Sir William

Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen)

Cleary, J. J.

John, William

Smith, Tom (Normanton)

Cocks, Frederick Seymour

Johnstone, Harcourt (S. Shields)

Thorne, William James

Cove, William G.

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Tinker, John Joseph

Daggar, George

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

Davies, David L. (Pontypridd)

Kirkwood, David

West, F. R.

Davies, Stephen Owen

Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

Williams, David (Swansea, East)

Dobbie, William

Lawson, John James

Williams, Edward John (Ogmore)

Edwards, Charles

Leonard, William

Williams, Dr. John H. (Llanelly)

Evans, R. T. (Carmarthen)

Logan, David Gilbert

Wilmot, John

Foot, Dingle (Dundee)

Lunn, William

Wood, Sir Murdoch McKenzie (Banff)

Foot, Isaac (Cornwall, Bodmin)

Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

Young, Ernest J. (Middlesbrough, E.)

Gardner, Benjamin Walter

McEntee, Valentine L.

George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

McGovern, John

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

George, Megan A. Lloyd (Anglesea)

Mainwaring, William Henry

Mr. Groves and Mr. D. Graham.

Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Arthur

Mander, Geoffrey le M.

Orders of the Day

Unemployment Assistance (Temporary Provisions) [Money]

Resolution reported,

"That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make temporary provision for securing as nearly as may be that the allowances payable under Part II of the Unemployment Act, 1934, to persons who, but for the operation of sub-section (2) of section fifty-nine of that Act, would at any time since the sixth day of January, nineteen hundred and thirty-five, have been entitled to transitional payments, shall not be less than the transitional payments that would have been payable to them but for the operation of the said sub-section; to postpone the second appointed day for the purposes of the said Act; and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid, it is expedient to provide—

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."

4.8 p.m.

I do not know whether this is the appropriate time, but, if not, you, Mr. Speaker, will correct me, to raise a point which was raised yesterday, and which, I think, is raised even more acutely to-day. Yesterday the question was mentioned in the House, when your Deputy was in the Chair—and I wish to make no criticism of his ruling—of the right of the House of Commons to criticise the Unemployment Assistance Board. I think that I am doing no injustice when I say that his ruling was briefly as follows: That the House was not entitled to criticise an individual, but that we might—I want to be fair to him, for the point was sprung upon him—criticise the Board collectively. The effect of that ruling is, that as the salaries of the Board are chargeable on the Consolidated Fund, therefore the members of that Board are in a similar position to His Majesty's judges—in fact, there is no difference. If that be the rule—it may or may not be correct, but that is a matter for you, and I will have to accept your ruling—the point now arises whether criticism of those individuals becomes contempt of court or not. In other words, having put them in the same position as judges, are they not in the same relationship as judges to the general Press of the country? I do not think you can put the House of Commons into one category with regard to criticising judges and the newspapers in a different category. Therefore, I put it to you that if the rule be that the members of the Board are in a similar position to that of judges, is it to be understood that being privileged people the newspapers of the country which indulge in personal criticism of them are to that extent guilty of the same contempt of court as they would be in the case of one of His Majesty's judges?

4.11 p.m.

I will answer the last part of the hon. Member's question first. With regard to newspapers, whether it is contempt of court or not, it is not for me to say one way or the other. It is a matter of law. All I have to do is to deal with the criticism of certain persons in this House and the opportunities of hon. Members for criticism of them. Of course, the point which has been raised with regard to the Unemployment Assistance Board and the members of which it is composed, creates, as far as this House is concerned, rather a new situation. It is quite true that the salaries of the members of that Board are chargeable on the Consolidated Fund. That being so, their salaries do not appear on the Votes. It is for that reason that through their salaries they cannot be criticised in discussions on Votes of Supply; nor could they be criticised in discussions on the Consolidated Fund Bill, because that Bill only contains the items which appear on the Votes, and which alone can be discussed. But the mere fact that the salaries of the Board are chargeable on the Consolidated Fund does not put them in any special position in this House, for which particular reason they cannot be criticised.

The hon. Member is probably as well aware as I am of the paragraph in Erskine May which includes a considerable list of persons who cannot be criticised in this House, not because their salaries are charged to the Consolidated Fund, but because, quite correctly I think, casual criticism of those persons would be very unseemly, and would not be the proper thing to do. Those particular persons on that list can only be criticised on a substantive Vote in this House, that is to say, a Motion on the Paper by which the attention of the House would be directed to that particular question, and that particular question only. I do not think that it would be a good thing that the list to which I have referred should be added to, unless there were very good reasons for it. It comes to this, that the members of this Board cannot be criticised in this House for their actions, because they do not act individually, but as a board. Their responsibility is not an individual responsibility; it is a responsibility of the Board as a whole, and the actions of the Board, as is clearly laid down, can be criticised in this House because the Government are responsible for the Board, and through them the Board can be criticised.

Apart from it not being possible to criticise the members of the Board as individuals, I do not think there would be any occasion to criticise the members of the Board, because they do not act as individuals but as a board. Of course, circumstances might arise, and it is conceivable that it might be necessary to criticise members of this Board individually, and in that case, as far as I can rule, I should say that criticism of an individual, just the same as of another person in a responsible position, should be made on a substantive Motion, but not in the way of Debate.

4.15 p.m.

I thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, for your very clear and just Ruling. I wish to put a point—I do not know whether it comes within your purview—and my reason for raising it is that individuals have already been challenged for doing certain things. The difficulty about a substantive Motion is that it is impossible to discuss an in- dividual, and yet an individual may lie under a serious charge. Let me illustrate what I mean. To-day in a responsible newspaper the Vice-Chairman of the Board is charged with heaving voted with the Treasury for cutting down the unemployment scales of payment. That charge may be right or wrong, I am not dealing with its merits, but it is a serious charge, and it is given as having the authentic backing of a member of the Board. To allow the position to remain like this is not good for the House or anybody else. Surely we should be allowed to raise the conduct of an individual in this House?

If I understand the hon. Member aright, at the moment he is referring to some criticism of an individual member of the Board which has appeared in the public Press. With that I have nothing whatever to do; it is no concern of mine. The only concern I have as regards criticisms which appear in the public Press are those which refer to hon. Members of this House, and the remedy is in the hands of the House. The other matter is no concern of mine, and I should be sorry to interfere in it.

Question, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution," put, and agreed to.

Unemployment Assistance (Temporary Provisions) Bill

Considered in Committee.

[Captain BOURNE in the Chair.]

CLAUSE 1.—(Provision of supplementary allowances.)

Before I call on the hon. Member for Gower (Mr. D. Grenfell) to move the first Amendment, may I ask whether I am not right in assuming that the first three Amendments in his name and that of other hon. Members are in point of fact one Amendment; that the second and third Amendment is consequential on the first?

4.19 p.m.

I beg to move, in page 1, line 10, to leave out "by an applicant to whom this Section applies."

Let me say, in the first place, Mr. Deputy-Chairman, that the three Amendments hang together and we should like to discuss them together. We want to make quite certain that all applicants shall receive the attention of the Unemployment Assistance Board who are entitled to their attention and that no applicant is excluded owing to any alteration by the Bill. It may be that the class of applicant is limited by the words:

The Parliamentary Secretary told us that a certain procedure was to be followed. I should like to call attention to the devious and involved methods by which these second ascertainments are to be made. I do not think that the House has appreciated the difficulties which are now imposed on applicants by this machinery and upon officers of the Board who have to administer the Bill. The situation is now most difficult and objectionable. The scales of payments which have been suspended are still to form the basis of the examinations which are now to be made. The determination by the officers of the Board will in every case be based on the first determination. A person who is to receive a restoration of the cuts first of all has to go to the Board and his claim will be assessed by the officer, the figure being determined by the Board on the basis of the Regulations. They will have to ascertain how much had been given to the applicant by the public assistance committee before the scales came into operation. In that case every assessment is a dual assessment.

I think the hon. Member's argument is now directed to the Question of Clause 1 standing part, rather than to the Amendment. I find it difficult to see how the particular grievance about which he is complaining would be altered by the Amendment.

I desire to find out exactly what is going to be done and how it is proposed to do it. If we can be sure of the machinery, and how it is going to operate, we can then determine what categories of people may be adversely affected and what people will come within the scope of the Board's operations. I make no complaint of the Parliamentary Secretary's description of the procedure yesterday, but there is still a doubt as regards the position of those who may be yet outside. We want to be sure that people who are entitled to come in should be in and that nobody is left outside who is entitled to the attention of the Board. A large number of people who are now under the Board, those on transitional payment and who have been transferred from one machinery to another, will be all right, they will receive an examination of their case. There will be no doubt or error or injustice in their case. But there are other classes of applicants. There are, broadly speaking, two classes of applicants. First, those who received sympathetic consideration by the public assistance committee. They are a class who, when they came later on to be dealt with by the Board, were dealt with adversely and subjected to a cut. The other category is those who were not dealt with so sympathetically by the public assistance committee and who have received determinations which are held to be inadequate. They are persons who were examined by the public assistance committee and were then given an opportunity of appearing before the public assistance committee in another capacity and received additional allowances by way of relief. That category of persons is in a distinct position which has not yet been definitely cleared up.

There is still grave doubt whether they will receive the kind of treatment which the Parliamentary Secretary explained in his speech yesterday. There is still a third category of persons; those who have been assessed on account of circumstances which may have changed, or may have appeared to have changed, since the original determination. These are three categories of applicants who have been dealt with in the few weeks since the Board came into operation; but in addition there is another category. I have received a telegram to-day conveying the apprehensions which exist in the country. We are not really in a position to judge the amount of confusion prevailing in the country. We have been assured by the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary that they are going to do certain things, but we are not sure that the people who are to operate the machinery have been given the instructions or the authority to convince them that a change has been made. I have received the following telegram from Monmouthshire which has suffered heavy unemployment, and where there is grave concern as to the possible effect of the Regulations and the Bill: their work as sympathetically as they can, but they are unable to give any explanations to the local people. There is a special obligation upon the Minister to clear up the position of a very large number of people, not themselves applicants in every case, but people who are brought in as members of the applicant's household and whose position changes materially as the resources of the family come to be assessed on a different basis. There is another class of applicant about which I think we should have something said. There are large numbers of people who have been struck off public assistance for some reason or other and who are now coming back or are due to come back on 1st March, people who have been previously insured and have lost their insurability and are to come back.

That argument might arise on the Question, "That Clause 2 stand part of the Bill," but it is clear that the hon. Member's Amendment, even if carried, cannot include any class which is not covered by the Financial Resolution.

I do not think there can be any ambiguity about our Amendment. What we require is that every applicant to whom this Clause applies shall be secured. Then we come to the next point, and say that the payments are to be made to the applicant by way of transitional payment. Then we come to Sub-section (2), which we seek to leave out, so that there shall be no qualification, no limitation and no reservation in regard to any class of applicant.

I am afraid that the hon. Member has overlooked Sub-section (5) which says:

"This section shall be deemed to have been in operation since the sixth day of January, nineteen hundred and thirty-five, and any determination made under the principal Act before the passing of this Act shall be revised accordingly; and this Act shall continue in operation until such date as may be determined by an order made by the Minister of Labour."

Therefore, no determination that has not been made since 6th January can possibly be affected by this Clause. Whether the words that the hon. Gentleman wishes to leave out remain in or not, his Amendment is very much narrower than he thinks it is.

The Committee will pass judgment on the merits of the Amendment, and I hope that any inadequacy in its terms will be made clear by the Parliamentary Secretary; but the intention is that those people who have already received the attention of the Board and those people who are subject to cuts by the Board and are to have their cuts restored—that that class shall be an all-inclusive class. We are very much concerned that these men when they come in shall not be prejudiced because they have not previously appeared before the Board or have not appeared in the capacity of applicants for transitional payment. I want all applicants who come before the Board to be treated alike. They should be treated as if they were applicants for transitional payment, and should not be penalised by reason of the date upon which they make their applications, or by any condition or limitation which is within the Bill.

If I am assured that our Amendment is unnecessary and does not mean exactly what we wish, we would like to have a statement made to that effect. If a statement can be made supplementing the statement made yesterday, which will give an assurance to Members on this side of the Committee, we shall be as well pleased as any Members of the House.

4.37 p.m.

I appreciate the remarks of the hon. Member for Gower (Mr. D. Grenfell) about my attempt yesterday to make clear what I admit is a very difficult matter. I do not think that the hon. Member need be under any misapprehension or need have any fears. The House will remember that the original arrangements of the Act were that the persons who are insured for National Health and Widows' Pensions which is a larger class than those who are insured for unemployment benefit, were to be divided into two classes, first the larger class, containing those who are insured for unemployment benefit, who were to begin to come under the care of the Unemployment Assistance Board on 7th January. All the others were to come under the care of the Board on the second appointed day. It was not clear from his speech whether the hon. Member for Gower intended any of that second class to come under the operation of the Board at once. I do not think he intended that. Their coming under the Board is controlled by Clause 2. Therefore, the only persons we are concerned with are the persons who are insured for unemployment benefit. It is quite clear that anyone who was entitled or would be entitled to transitional payment under the old scheme can now come to the Board. I can give an unqualified assurance about that. That is what the Bill means.

Hon. Members will probably remember that Section 59 of the principal Act which is referred to in this Sub-section does two things. First of all, it provides for the temporary continuance of the old transitional payment system, and then it proceeds to say that it shall continue in operation until the first appointed day, when it will come to an end. The Clause continues the old transitional payment rate until further notice, if higher than the Board's determination. There fore, anyone who did come or would have come under the old transitional payment scheme would still come in under the Clause. As I was listening to the hon. Member's speech I thought that perhaps some of the difficulty might have been caused by remarks of mine yesterday in connection with the class of persons who had a nil determination. What I said then of course applied to cases where a man had been getting a transitional payment under the old public assistance committee, but received a "nil" determination of the Board. The Board has decided to make a supplementary allowance in these cases equal to the amount of the old transitional payment rate. The Clause does not refer to cases which have come before the Board for the first time. If I did not make that sufficiently clear yesterday my statement may have caused some of the misunderstanding.

I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will make it quite clear that the person who has been to the Board for the first time will not be prevented from complete reconsideration of his claim when he comes back to the Board. The person who has been to the Board for the first time and has a nil determination but has no previous determination, can he come again?

We are dealing first of all with the three types of persons who on 7th January had a current determination for transitional payments from a public assistance committee. These are cases where there has been a cut, cases where the Board says "nothing is due to you at all," and lastly cases where the board has given a higher determination. All those persons go back to what the public assistance committee would have given them on 7th January, except where the Board's determination is higher than the old transitional payment rate, when the higher amount will be paid. There is a fourth class of persons who have not been before the public assistance committee at all, but come on this week or next week and come to the Board for the first time. They will be treated as far as possible as though the public assistance committee were deciding the case instead of the Board, the only difference being that if the Board give a higher determination than the public assistance committee would have given the applicant gets the higher determination. The Amendments of the hon. Member have been examined by our legal advisers, and they assure me that if accepted the Amendments would not make any practical difference to the meaning of the Clause. I hope, therefore, that this Amendment will not be pressed.

With that definite assurance I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move, in page 2, line 40, after "allowances" to insert "leave to appeal shall not be withheld under the".

This Amendment and another to be moved later have for their object the protection of the applicant who may be turned down under this new regime. The Committee know that under Section 35 of the original Act the chairman has discretion as to whether a man shall be allowed to appeal or not. Here is an interim period, and an applicant is at the discretion of the officer. The Minister yesterday gave explanations which were as clear as it was possible for them to be in the circumstances. The hon. Gentleman said for instance:

I am under the impression that I then went on to explain how the difficulty could be met.

For all that, the burden of the thing still is that the man is subject to the discretion and the judgment of the officer, who is not infallible, to say the least of it. If the Board wants to safeguard itself in regard to these cases it would be wiser to give the man the right without any question at all to go to the appeal tribunal if he wishes to do so, instead of leaving it in the hands of the chairman to decide whether he is to do so or not. Then there is the question of the new cases. There are also the cases where the public assistance committees' grants have been supplementary. We got a statement on that particular type of case yesterday which seemed satisfactory, but the fact remains that the man is in the hands of the officer and dependent upon his judgment. I think it would round off the efforts which the Government have made to make a clean breast in this matter, and to do effective justice to the men concerned, and all the action which they have taken, if they left out in this case the right of the chairman to refuse an appeal.

There is a second Amendment on the Paper which proposes in page 2, line 41, after the word "Act" to insert "and the provisions of that sub-section." I am not so certain as to the value of those words but the main reason for moving these Amendments is to raise the whole question of the wisdom of giving the chairman of the appeal tribunal the right to refuse an applicant's claim to come before the tribunal in these cases. I hope the Government will see the wisdom of accepting these Amendments or at any rate some Amendments for the same purpose. These words may not fit in exactly or do what we desire, but I think the intention is clear. I do not know whether the Government have definitely made up their minds upon this matter, but I hope that the question is still open to that consideration which I myself and I think the rest of this Committee would probably be inclined to give it. If the Government act on our proposal, I feel sure that they will avoid considerable trouble in the future and give a greater sense of certainty to the applicants concerned.

4.51 p.m.

I support the Amendment and I think that if the Government accept it, they will avoid considerable difficulty in the future regarding cases in which any dispute arises. The present position, as I understand it, is that if a man has any complaint he sends it through the area officer to the appeals tribunal and the chairman of that body has the right to say whether or not an appeal shall be heard. That in itself is a very invidious arrangement. It vests in the chairman the whole power of the tribunal. If the chairman has made up his mind against the man it means that he and not the tribunal have decided that a case is not to be subject to appeal. A man who is affected in that way cannot understand such procedure. He immediately goes to the area officer and wants to know what it is all about. There is enough confusion already without adding to it by causing further trouble.

The man who has been denied the opportunity of presenting his case goes, as I say, to the area officer who tells him that he can do nothing in the matter. Naturally the man then goes to his Member of Parliament who, unfortunately, is not in a position to do anything either in view of the fact that the Regulations do not permit of any alteration in this respect. Having regard to those circumstances and the fact that this arrangement covers an experimental period, I would ask the Minister to give every individual who has any complaints the opportunity of appealing in a proper manner while these new provisions are in existence. If that is not done, we may find ourselves confronted with precisely the same kind of difficulty as that which has been experienced in many parts of the country lately. There must be a safety valve somewhere, and if a man is denied a hearing of his case he will go somewhere else to seek relief. He is not going to sit still under what he regards as a wrong, without making any effort to have it remedied.

The House has already had sufficient illustration of the results of that sort of thing. Instead of this question being settled as it ought to be settled here, we shall have large demonstrations all over the place joined in by men who really do not properly understand who are their friends and who are not. Those who are their friends and those who are not their friends are huddled together in the excitement, and the agitation spreads, directed against somebody or another, whoever it may be, merely because the people are unable to understand why they should not be given a chance of presenting their case when they are dissatisfied. It is not a tremendous thing to ask the Government to accept the Amendment. If it be true that, in the main, people are benefiting by the new Regulations, it is practically nothing to ask. If, on the other hand, people are being badly affected if they are getting less or if they will get less when these Regulations come into existence than they got before, they are entitled not only to air their grievances to the area officer, but to see that those grievances are properly placed before the appropriate body. In those circumstances I hope the Amendment will be accepted.

4.55 p.m.

I want to make an appeal to the Minister in regard to this Amendment. If there is any justice at all in the claims which have been made as to consideration for those who have been badly treated, surely the Amendment must appeal to the right hon. Gentleman. If there is anything in what the Minister has said to the effect that he wishes to avoid difficulties in the administration of the Act and to deal fairly and honestly with the applicants, then he ought to accept this Amendment, which appears to meet our case. The Minister must be aware of the public feeling outside to the effect that people have been harshly dealt with under the Regulations. We are now taking action to meet that feeling by means of provisional arrangements and it is to be hoped that those arrangements will operate with equity and fairness to the applicants and not with harshness. I put it to the Minister that it is wrong to place plenary powers in the hands of an autocratic chairman in regard to appeals by applicants who feel that fair consideration has not been given to their cases as regards supplementation or other matters.

When a man has been denied the right of appeal it is impossible to disabuse his mind of the idea that he has been badly treated. The Minister should take account of the psychology of people who have empty stomachs and who are not able to augment the allowances made to them for the upkeep of their homes. This matter counts for a good deal in the depressed areas. The Amendment is plain and simple. It seeks to give to any applicant, for the time being, the right of lodging an appeal against a decision and we must consider the effects as regards family life and in other ways in these depressed times when men feel that injustice is being done to them. They are told that they are entering a new era and that new arrangements are being made taking them away from the public assistance committees, but are they to be placed under an arbitrary body? I picture to myself the state of things in a city like Liverpool and the position, under this arrangement, of men who had previously received treatment which they did not consider to be over-liberal but which seemed to make some allowance in relation to family life. While we have these provisional arrangements and until we have proper regulations which have been discussed by this House, we ought not to do anything to create a frame of mind among the people in which they think that we are not giving them proper consideration under what can only be temporary provisions.

This is an important Amendment and it should not be necessary to do more than to appeal to the justice of the claim. The right of appeal in these cases should not depend on the arbitrary dictum of any individual. Unless the people are getting a square and honest deal they will not be satisfied, but if they are able to place their case before the proper body and if they know they will get a fair deal, I believe that they will accept the decision like sportsmen. If decisions are to be dependent on a particular individual, who may not know the wants of the district or who may be arbitrary or harsh, they will feel that they are not getting a fair crack of the whip. Having served on a public assistance committee, and knowing the point of view of these people who want the means of subsistence, I feel justified in asking the Minister to accept this Amendment in order to get us over a difficulty.

5.1 p.m.

I hope the Minister will give favourable consideration to the Amendment and, if he feels he cannot go so far as to give a right of appeal in every case, that at least he will provide, either by regulations or in the Bill, itself, that the chairmen shall not refuse leave in these cases without giving the applicants an opportunity of putting before them the facts of the case. When the Minister spoke on this matter a week or so ago, when these difficulties first became apparent to the House, he very definitely expressed his view or his hope that the chairmen of the appeal tribunals would not turn down these appeals in the first instance in normal cases, but those cases—they are not very many—that have come to my notice make me feel that the chairmen of tribunals are turning them down as a matter of course and, so far as I can see, without having before them any opportunity of considering whether there are or are not matters upon which discretion ought to be exercised by the assessing officer.

I have seen the form upon which the information is entered in the first instance, and, so far as I can discover, there is no space on it on which matters which would be matters for discretion could be entered by the official of the Board who takes down the information in the first instance. I cannot see how any chairman of a tribunal can exercise the duty that the Act has imposed upon him on the information that is contained on that paper. If he does not in fact see the applicant, there seems to be no means by which he can satisfy himself whether there are or are not extraneous matters upon which discretion ought to be exercised. I therefore hope the Minister, either by accepting the Amendment or in some other way, will secure that a chairman at least shall see a man and hear his case before he refuses leave to appeal.

5.4 p.m.

I desire to support the Amendment, which I think is a very reasonable Amendment indeed. I regard it as being worthy of very special consideration by the Minister at this time, because the Government and the Minister are in a better mood for listening to reason just now than they were a few weeks ago. A wonderful change comes over Governments when the mass pressure and indignation of the people have been in operation throughout the length and breadth of the country. The antagonism and indignation that swept like a prairie fire throughout this country have had the result of bringing us to a stage to-day at which we are able to discuss the wrongs that were inflicted on the people during the period when the Bill was half baked and not considered in a proper Committee atmosphere by the Members of this House. It ought to be a warning to hon. Members and the Government. I am prepared always to approach any assembly, local or national, if I find the spirit of reason operating, and I am prepared to put forward a plea in a reasonable way if I think there is any chance of success or of being listened to in a proper manner. Otherwise we are compelled to act in a particularly denunciatory way and to pay no attention to appeals if we think they are unheard.

I appeal to the Minister to-day in that spirit to realise that the operation of this Measure is placing in the hands of a chairman a power that ought not to be possessed by any citizen of this country. It is not a power of deciding on some infinitesimal point, but a power to decide the very life and death of human individuals. I would not seek such powers even for myself. I remember on public assistance work sitting day after day on relief work, from 9.30 till one, and I found that when I began to sit on that committee bundles of cases were put before me, and in a very orthodox way the man in charge would say, "Simply initial or sign these, and you will get away all the speedier." I would say, "What are the decisions? Are they decisions for the workhouse or are they refusals?" He would say, "Yes." I would say, "I am not agreeing to them, and I am dealing with them not in the mass but in individual cases." He would say, "You will be kept all the longer." I would reply, "I am prepared to give the time to see that justice is done to every human being who comes here to-day." I treated children as if they were my own children, young men and young women as if they were my own sons and daughters, and old people as if they were my own father and mother, and in that way I was able to mete out justice to these human beings. I pride myself on this, that I never gave a decision antagonistic to any applicant. I always found some method of approach to the individuals, appealing to them even, in their own interests, to see the errors that had been committed.

But on those committees there was the right of appeal. The individual and the officer in charge both had the right of appeal, and the matter was not left to the discretion of the public assistance officer. If the official thought that my decision was unjust to, as he would say, the citizens, he had the right to appeal against my decision, and I had the right to go to the appeal committee and state my reasons for my decision. If the applicants desired to appeal, it was intimated to them also that they could appeal. No matter who the chairman may be, he may not have the whole of the facts of the case before him. He may be a very humane individual, and he may be desirous of doing the best he can for the applicant. Here is a paper which is given to an applicant, with the decision of the official in charge on it. What is it? A bald statement that the man has to be paid, instead of 32s. a week, 2s. a week. There is no statement as to the reason, and no scale is given. There is no information of any kind, and I say that if you want to prevent the necessity of unlimited appeals, you must have a new form, giving the people their scales and the reasons for the decisions.

On the Scottish Standing Committee on the Poor Law (Scotland) Bill we got an Amendment accepted by the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, who showed that real Committee spirit of bargaining or giving concessions where it appealed to the reason of the Committee, and he has granted many concessions that have been very useful. I ask the Minister to approach this matter in the same spirit. If an individual gets a decision, he comes to a public representative and says, "Here is my paper. I have been cut down from 32s. to 2s., and I want to know the reason." The public representative says, "I do not know it any more than you do. We will go along to the offices of the Board, and we will interview the manager and find out." The papers are got out, time is lost, and then we are told the reason is because there is a dual household. The question of a dual household goes to the chairman, and he says, "Oh, that question has been settled by Act of Parliament, and therefore I am not giving leave to appeal in this case." That chairman cannot know all the points that should be known. The investigator goes to the house and seeks information there, but nobody knows what he puts down on that schedule, whether it is true or false, or whether it is simply some wrong statement that he puts down or a deduction of his own from information given, and the individual may be condemned on wrong information, and yet he has no opportunity of appealing.

I say that that is wrong, and it does not matter to me even if it only happens to six individuals in an area. There is in such a case greater need of protection for the minority than there is in the case even of the majority, because in the case of the majority, as we have seen in the last few weeks, they can make their mind known in public demonstrations, and they can influence Governments, because, in my belief, all Governments do not move by reason, they move by the application of pressure outside the Chamber. Therefore, I appeal to the Minister to recognise that these wrongs can be committed, and, if so, it is right at this stage that every individual should be protected. New machinery is being set up. It may be argued that it will mean a tremendous strain on the chairman to have to decide such a large number of cases as may come up for decision, but that is not a point worthy of a moment's consideration. After your Regulations are issued, if they are carried into effect, the need for appeals will die down, and you will only have a small number, but at the very outset, when hundreds of thousands of individuals are being put under this hammer, I do not care who the chairman is, if he wants to do the right thing, he can make mistakes, and individuals ought not to be penalised by these mistakes.

In the ordinary Poor Law or Labour Exchange cases, public representatives had a great deal more power, because they could go and interview and get information that it is not open to them to get in connection with the schemes that are being put forward to-day. In the ordinary Labour Exchange cases, if I found a decision made unfairly against an applicant in the Parkhead or Bridgton areas, and I went to the manager of the Exchange and said to him, "I think this decision was not properly discussed," he would give me a fresh consideration of the case, with courtesy, humanity, and consideration. I have had that on every occasion. Not a single example could I cite against the officials of the Employment Exchanges or in connection with the Board. Therefore, I appeal to the Minister to consider this reasonable claim to give protection to every individual.

5.15 p.m.

I should like to make an appeal to the Minister to consider this Amendment very carefully. We have been told on several occasions during our Debates that the officials—I think this might even apply to the chairmen—did not realise the amount of discretion and elasticity which existed in the Regulations. The words which control them are in Section 39 of the Act—

"Leave shall not be granted unless it appears to the chairman that there is reason to doubt whether the need of the applicant has been determined or whether his needs have been assessed in accordance with the Regulations made in that behalf under this Part in this Act."

In other words, the position is that the chairman has the discretion. He has merely to say whether the appeal is to be allowed according to the Regulations. If he considers that the assessment is according to the Regulations, he can say that the appeal is disallowed. I think that in future, especially in the case of new applicants, with regard to whom the Minister has explained that there really is more elasticity in the Regulations than some of the officials possibly realise, some of them will appeal not only against reductions, but possibly against not getting the increases which they think are due to them under the Regulations. They ought at any rate, to have the power to appeal in cases where they consider that an increase was due, just as much as in cases where there has been a reduction. I feel that there is in the country a desire that the appeals should be allowed more generally than they are. Cases have been brought to me from my constituency in which I have been told that appeals have not been allowed, and I urge upon the Minister—who, I know, is now in a good mood—to consider the Amendment, and to help us in this way.

5.19 p.m.

When the principal Act was before the House, many of us on these benches opposed the chairman having the sole right to decide. I am convinced that sooner or later this right of appeal will have to be considered in a much broader sense than that in which it is treated in the Act. There is something in English law which gives the aggrieved person the right to appeal if he feels dissatisfied with the judgment that has been passed upon him. That is recognised even in the unemployment insurance law. In the case of a man who comes under Part I, if the court of referees decide that the man is not entitled to benefit, he has a right of appeal to the umpire. It is true that the court of referees have the right to say whether a man shall have the appeal, but if the applicant is a member of an organisation, an appeal to the umpire can be lodged within six months if the application is endorsed by the permanent officials of the organisation. That has been very helpful in numerous cases which have involved points of principle. It has often occurred that the court of referees have had insufficient evidence before them. Inquiries have sometimes shown that there is further evidence, and when the applicant has gone to the umpire a different decision has been given. I cannot see why the applicant under Part II should not have the right of appeal to the chairman.

If these regulations had not been withdrawn, I had intended to bring up a number of complaints which I had received from some of my constituents with regard to persons who desire to appeal to the umpire. I have been told, and I have reason to believe it is true, that a number of these applicants are being interviewed by an officer of the board who has examined their case. He has told them, "You have been assessed in accordance with the regulations, and neither the Tribunal nor anyone else can do anything for you. Therefore, it is no use persisting in your appeal." In a number of cases the applicants have had their forms marked, "Application to appeal withdrawn at applicant's request," even though the applicants themselves have not been in favour of the withdrawal. I want the Minister to tell the officers of the Board that when they are advising people with regard to applications, it is not their job to decide the case there and then, and that it is for the applicant to feel that he has had a fair crack of the whip so far as the chairman of the appeals tribunal is concerned. The statement made by the hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. McGovern) with regard to the investigators and the different statements which are made shows that they are likely to lead, and do lead, to a good deal of confusion. We have to remember that men's minds have been exercised a good deal in the past two or three weeks in industrial districts, and even though this Bill be temporary in character, there is likely to be just a little more complication in the average individual case with regard to the machinery for dealing with it than would have been the case if we had a straight, above-board, understandable system of regulations. That being so, the case is much stronger for an appeal to the Minister to accept the Amendment. In view of the fact that the appeal has come from all quarters of the Committee, and the many expressions of the desire that hon. Members want to see the unemployed have a square deal, I hope the Minister will see his way to accept it.

5.25 p.m.

I want to join in the appeal to the Minister to accept the Amendment, because it is very reasonable, and has been supported from every part of the Committee. It should particularly appeal to the Minister because, in an earlier stage of the proceedings about a fortnight ago, when this matter was first brought up, the Parliamentary Secretary expressed the hope that it was through the avenue of the appeal tribunals that the whole matter might be straightened out. At that stage the crisis had not fully developed, and it was hoped that when all the cases had been dealt with by the appeal tribunals everything would come out all right. It was soon discovered, however, that there was no way out that way, but the Parliamentary Secretary indicated the importance which the Minister attached to the functioning of the tribunals. I am sure he will be glad to seize the opportunity of emphasising the importance which he attaches to them. It is not sufficient simply that a just decision should be given in these cases. People throughout the country are in a very excited state of mind, and do not see clearly what has happened and why things have happened. It is, therefore, necessary to use all the machinery at your disposal to enable them to understand the position. It is not enough that justice should be done; it is necessary that it should be known by the people concerned that it is being done, and how it is being done. The Government originally made a fatal blunder. They have endeavoured as handsomely as possible to retrace their steps, and it would be in accordance with the spirit in which they are trying to act if they accepted the Amendment.

5.27 p.m.

When the hon. Member for Chester-le-Street (Mr. Lawson) moved the Amendment, he quoted from a speech I made yesterday explaining the machinery for making these new assessments, but the Committee will remember that I went on to add that if the officer of the Board was in any doubt as to the sum that the public assistance committee would have given to a man in hypothetical circumstances, he would, I hoped, have the assistance of the public assistance officer in helping him to come to a right conclusion. That, of course, is a very strong check in the interests of the applicant, but I quite realise that it is desirable, not merely that justice should be done, but that justice should appear to be done, and although I have no doubt in my own mind that the chairmen of the appeals tribunals would, in fact, where there was any doubt, have given a man the right of appeal, we are prepared to accept the principle of the Amendment. It is not quite in the right form, but I hope the hon. Member for Chester-le-Street will ask leave to withdraw the Amendment and move it in the form in which it can be accepted. I will only make an appeal to hon. Members opposite and to Members of the Committee generally not to allow this alteration to prejudice our chance of getting the Bill through to-day. This Amendment will involve a Report stage, which would not have been necessary if no Amendment had been carried, but I feel sure that the Committee generally will not take advantage of that.

5.29 p.m.

We appreciate the concession which the Government have made, and I think the Parliamentary Secretary will find that it will avoid a great deal of difficulty in future. We realise that if it had not been for the acceptance of the Amendment there would not have been any Report stage, and we will promise not to take any advantage of that. We will make no more ado on the Report stage, although we shall have something to say on Third Reading. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendments made: In page 2, line 40, after "allowances" insert "leave to appeal shall not be withheld under."

In line 41, leave out from "Act," to the end of the Sub-section.—[ Mr. Lawson. ]

Do I understand, Captain Bourne, that your decision on the last Amendment was that the "Noes" had it?

That is so. The Amendment proposed to leave certain words out of the Clause, and the Question I put was, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part," and, therefore, the "Noes" must have it if the Amendment is to be carried.

I beg to move, in page 3, line 16, at the end, to insert "and this Act."

This is merely a drafting Amendment, which we should not have submitted but for the fact that there is now to be a Report stage. It is merely to make quite sure that the payments to be made are legal both under the principal Act and this Bill.

Amendment agreed to.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

5.33 p.m.

I do not wish to carry on the Debate unnecessarily, but hon. Members may be under the impression that the concession the Government have made disposes of the main difficulty which my hon. Friend and I had raised. As a matter of fact, it leaves the main difficulty untouched. It is true that the acceptance of the Amendment brings a desirable element of elasticity into local administration, but the principal reason why we brought it forward is to be found in the point made last night, to which there has yet been no satisfactory reply. The position is that in a great many instances the local authority has supplemented the transitional payment. Where the local authority did not augment the transitional payment, the determination of the local authority is accepted by this Bill for the temporary period, but where the same local authority did augment the transitional payment this Bill makes no provision for—

I am afraid I cannot allow the hon. Member, on the Question of the Clause as amended standing part of the Bill, to discuss a new Clause which has been ruled to be outside the scope of the Bill.

I have listened very carefully to the Debate and to the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Govan (Mr. N. Maclean), in which he addressed several questions to the Minister, and I am raising this point now in the hope of getting a more satisfactory assurance from the Minister.

If the hon. Member will look at the Order Paper he will see a new Clause standing in the name of the hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood) which has been ruled to be outside the scope of the Bill, and I cannot allow the hon. Member to argue something which is outside the scope of the Bill.

That is a matter upon which a decision has already been given. The question whether an extra grant can be made by local authorities cannot be dealt with under this Measure.

We have understood that the Bill proposed to restore the cuts which have been made. Some of the cuts have involved supplementary payments. Do we now understand that the Government have brought before the House a Bill which does not implement the promise they made? The point I am raising is that these persons are in receipt of transitional payments. I am not raising the point that they should receive augmented public assistance. That would be ruled out by the Bill.

As long as the hon. Member keeps to the point that these people should be dealt with by the Board, he is in order. I understood his argument to be that they should be dealt with by the local authorities.

Oh, no. It is clear that the local authorities cannot continue these supplementary payments, and, therefore, it would be out of order for me to discuss the question of these people still being dealt with by the local authorities. These are all persons transferred with the general bulk of the persons who are in receipt of transitional payments, except that certain of them received a supplementary payment from the local authority, and what we desire is that where the local authority had decided that a man should have, say, 24s. and 4s. that assessment shall be accepted for this temporary period, just as it is to be accepted in the case where the local authority had said it should be 24s. without the additional 4s. I cannot understand why the Government refuse to agree to this, unless they are proposing to withhold from the unemployed what they have promised to give them.

The Parliamentary Secretary will probably say in reply that these are exceptional cases, otherwise they would not have been receiving augmented payments, and that these cases will go before the tribunal set up, leave to appeal to which has now been given by the acceptance of the Amendment. But that does not meet my major point. Why should the Government accept the determination of a local authority in cases where that determination did not exceed the transitional payment, but reject it where it was decided that an augmented payment ought to be made? Even if the more substantial point is not accepted by the Government, there remains a further one. The tribunal set up under this Bill will have to consider the appeal as an appeal made under the Regulations. This Bill does not withdraw the Regulations to which exception has been taken. The regulations remain in being, the Government merely saying they will agree to the additional payments. Therefore, when a man appeals against his assessment, the tribunal will consider it not in the light of the payment he formerly received from the local authority, but in the light of the Regulations under which the tribunal have to act. [ Interruption. ] This is an extremely complicated matter, and it is not very easy to make it clear. I am sure that many hon. Members are not aware of these distinctions, and I should like to have some quiet while I am making my point. The Regulations are still the basis of assessment. The tribunal will have to consider the appeal in the light of the Act under which it is set up and of the Regulations. It is to these Regulations that we take exception, and yet this Bill, which relaxes the Regulations with respect to all other recipients, refuses to relax them in the case of recipients in receipt of supplementary Poor Law relief, and therefore, we shall not be treating all those in receipt of transitional payments in the same way. Some will have the benefit of the generous old assessment, and others will be assessed under the new Regulations with appeal to the tribunal.

I submit to the Minister that by this mode of procedure—I believe it was done quite unwittingly, and that he did not desire to do so—he has not implemented the promise which was made, and that there is likely to be some difficulty in the country in consequence. The remedy open to the right hon. Gentleman is a simple one. All he has to do is to say that, having accepted the assessment of the local authority for the interim period where that assessment did not exceed the transitional payment, he will also accept it in those cases where the local authority found it necessary to supplement the transitional payment by a payment from the local rates. The present position is an anomalous one, and one which he ought not to ask us to accept, because there is likely to be considerable difficulty. If he will not agree to what I ask, may I inquire why he does not do so? Is it because local authorities in some parts of the country have found it necessary to grant a supplement in a very large number of cases, and he will not automatically agree to that? I should have thought that the consideration of self-interest which must have been before the local authorities would have been sufficient protection for him. When a local authority assessed a transitional payment it had not to find the money and, therefore, its assessment would probably be more generous than where it had to find the money, as in the cases of a supplementary payment, which it had to meet out of its own revenue. A local authority would only make supplementary payments when convinced that they were necessary to avoid hardships. It is a point which the Minister ought to take into consideration, because if he does not do so there will be bad feeling in those parts of the country where supplementary payments have been made on a considerable scale on account of the local distress.

There is one further point which I have, not observed before, although when the Bill was before the House many of us warned the Government that the frontiers between local authority, public assistance committee and the Board would be so badly drawn that one would be invading the other's territory from time to time and that territorial adjustments would have to be made. If hon. Members will look at the Eighth Schedule to the Act they will see that local authorities are debarred from giving any payment whatsoever to a person whose needs have been assessed by the Unemployment Assistance Board. If hon. Members will also look at Clause 35, which contains the needs test, they will see that the whole of the family must be taken into account. It means that you may have two sons who were in receipt of public assistance at the rate, say, of 15s. per week each. The father becomes an applicant for unemployment allowance under the Board, and the needs of the father are taken into account in respect of his own resources and the resources of the sons. I would have the Committee note that the sons are not themselves applicants for unemployment assistance allowance. The father is given an allowance by the Board, and that allowance is assessed by taking the sons into account. Immediately that happens, the sons can no longer receive any assistance from the local authority, although they may not be applicants for unemployment allowances. There may be an aunt in the house receiving 10s. per week by way of pension, or half-a-crown from a local authority. The Regulations say in effect: "Having taken into account the resources of this household we consider that the 10s. for the aunt covers the assessment of her needs," although the aunt is not an applicant for allowance. The same may happen in the case of, say, a brother-in-law living in the same household.

Although the aunt is not an applicant, as she is part of the household her needs have been taken into account in assessing the needs of another member of the household, and immediately that happens the local authority can no longer make any pay- ment to her, because she has come under the means test of the principal applicant. That is a monstrous iniquity. The hon. Member for Attercliffe (Mr. Pike) shakes his head. May I point out, before he interrupts me, that certain persons formerly receiving public assistance allowance and now taken over by the Unemployment Board are dependants, a son or father as the case may be, and that public assistance cannot be paid; so that you have taken out of the ambit of the local authority not merely those persons who are in receipt of unemployment allowances, but also all persons who may by accident be living in the same household. Therefore, you deprive the local authority of their right of coming to the assistance of persons who are members of the household, but are not applicants for unemployment allowances. I have not read out the Schedule, because I thought that hon. Members were familiar with it. It says:

"A public assistance authority shall not order outdoor relief to be given—

remember that those needs are taken into account not in respect of the application of the person for public assistance but of another person in the household who is an applicant for unemployment allowance—

"in a determination for the time being in force under Part II of this Act; or

( c ) to any person in receipt of unemployment benefit."

The distinction ought to be drawn very clearly, and the law should be so amended—if this Bill does not amend it now it should be made to do so during the Report stage—that only those who are applicants in their own right to the Unemployment Assistance Board should be deprived of applying for public assistance, and that a person who is a member of a household, is not in the category of dependant and is not an applicant for unemployment allowance from the Board, should still have the right, which has existed for hundreds of years, to be an applicant for public assistance.

I am afraid the hon. Gentleman is now getting clearly outside the scope of this Amendment.

I apologise. I admit that the last point does pass on to the borders of order, but it is one of very great substance and is of considerable importance to us. It has been raised especially in South Wales to-day, and great hardship has arisen. I hope that the Committee, with the assistance of the Chair, will seek an opportunity to get some reply about it and of putting the matter right if possible. I submit that the case has been made out that the Minister is not, in fact, implementing the promise which he made that local authorities should have their assessment honoured, whether those assessments increased or did not increase the transitional payment. With respect to the last point, I assure the Minister that it is one which will have to be dealt with; otherwise the relationship of the Board and the public assistance authorities will become absolutely chaotic.

5.53 p.m.

I rise to support the case which has just been made by my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. A. Bevan) and give a personal experience of which I have been informed to-day from my constituency. I wish to cite this case because it may show more clearly to hon. Members and to the Minister the precise importance of the point which my hon. Friend has made. The case is that of a man receiving transitional payment. He had a certain allowance made to him because, unfortunately, he had a wife suffering from tuberculosis and who is unable, I think, to look after herself. The public assistance committee allowed him 2s. 6d. per week as extra benefit because of the condition of his wife. This Act comes into operation. The man receives transitional benefit but is now debarred from receiving the extra payment on behalf of his wife, simply because he is now receiving transitional payment under the Board. The Minister has generously declared that people who have suffered cuts shall, as far as possible, have those cuts restored to them, but in this case, because of the operation of the law, it will, I submit, be impossible to put this man back into precisely the position in which he was under the public assistance committee. I suggest to the Minister that it was not his intention that an anomaly of that kind should be created, or that hardships should be inflicted under rather distressing circumstances.

In the majority of cases in which the local authority augmented transitional payment, it was because of some rather exceptional circumstance. While in the vast majority of instances, people will find that under this standstill arrangement their cuts will be restored to them, this unfortunate man and his more unfortunate wife will, I am satisfied, have a distinct grievance. A sense of grievance will also be created among people who do not apply for transitional payment and who are in employment, as well as among their friends and neighbours, who will think that the case is a particularly hard one, and that it seems a shame. In view of what the Minister has done in trying to put this matter right, I believe that it is not beyond the bounds of possibility, or beyond the wit of the Minister, to find a means of dealing with a case of this description.

5.57 p.m.

May I ask the Minister whether the case put by the hon. Member for Wednesbury (Mr. Banfield) would not come under the provision in regard to special circumstances and whether, had the circumstances been submitted to the officer of the Board when first the case was before him, even though his first determination might not have contained the same scale as he received under transitional payment, it would not have formed a genuine basis of appeal? Assuming that such a case arose and, when the Regulations were withdrawn, was under appeal but not definitely decided, and that the appeal was afterwards granted in favour of the applicant, would the new terms payable to the applicant as the result of the Bill be payable during the continued lifetime of this Bill? Has the Minister any knowledge whatsoever of the number of cases throughout the country that would be advantageously affected if that were the case?

5.58 p.m.

Let me reply at once to the question raised by the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan), which was in order; to the other question put by him which was out of order, I may refer in passing. The principal point he raised was the question of those cases where transitional payment has been supplemented by the local authority. It is, in fact, a point with which I dealt at very considerable length last night, and although it was quite appropriate for the hon. Gentleman to ask it, I thought that I had made the position clear. The specific case put by the hon. Gentleman will be the best means of explaining what the position is now. As I said, under the Bill the amount taken into account to which the applicant will be entitled will be the amount of the transitional payment, but that instructions had been issued by the Board to their officers to regard any case where supplementation had been paid by the local authority as a case in which special circumstances may exist, and which, therefore, they were to examine from the point of view of the use of their discretion.

I take it that the local authorities have supplemented transitional payments only because for some reason or other those transitional payments do not satisfy the needs of the applicant, and that is exactly the kind of case to which the discretion in special circumstances is intended under the Regulations to apply. Every case of that kind, therefore, will be investigated by the officers in order to see whether such circumstances exist. Hon. Members will appreciate that, owing to the Amendment which the Committee has now accepted, every applicant who does not get a supplementation and is dissatisfied with the decision will have the right to take his case to an appeal tribunal for decision as to whether the discretion has been properly exercised and whether in the circumstances the needs of the applicant are met.

That tribunal will be administering the Regulations, because the original assessment was made under the Regulations, and the tribunal will not take account of the facts which were put before the public assistance authority.

I am sure the hon. Member is wrong. Once there is a case of special circumstances, the discretion of the Board is unlimited, and, that being so, either the officer, if he wishes to use the discretion, or the tribunal when the case comes before them, will be entitled to meet the needs of the applicant in the special circumstances of his case, whatever the figures laid down in the Regulations may be. The position of the officer using his discretion and of the appeal tribunal is exactly the position of the public assistance committee, namely, that in the case in question they think that more is needed than the scale provides, and, just as the public assistance committee in those circumstances gave this amount, so the Board, either through its officer or the decision of the appeal tribunal, can, if the circumstances warrant it, give either a lesser sum or a greater sum if they think it necessary to meet the circumstances of the case. I cannot refer to the other point except to say that it is a point of some difficulty, and one which, obviously, I must go into.

6.3 p.m.

I am afraid that for some reason or another I am unable to make any impression on the Minister, although I hope I have been making some impression on the Committee. It seems to me that the Minister has obfuscated his own mind in talking about special cases. I do not understand what he means by a special case. It is said that a case is a special case because it is augmented. But supplementation of a transitional payment does not mean that that is a special case; it only appears to be a special case because now the money has to come from two sources. Every case under the means test is bound to be a special case, because every case has to be assessed in respect of the infinite variation of household circumstances. All that has happened is that in this instance the local authority assessed their maximum transitional payment, and could not give any more under that head, but had to give more from their own funds. Will any Member of the Committee please tell me what is the difference between a local authority assessing the needs of a family—ignoring the question of transitional payment—at 24s., and assessing the needs of another family at 30s.? Is the 30s. any more special than 24s.? But where the assessment is 30s., owing to the limitations of the law, the money has to be found from two funds. So far, however, as the man is concerned, if it has to be found from 42 funds it makes no difference; all he is concerned about is the total.

It is a mere accident of tardy legislation that the able-bodied poor receive some money from the State and some from the local authority. Where the assessment is 24s. the Ministry will pay it, merely because it happens to be the same as or less than the transitional payment, but where the assessment is 30s., although it is made by the same authority, the Ministry say that they may appeal against it. Why, in such circumstances, should one category of the unemployed have their cuts restored, while another category of unemployed have their position left in jeopardy? It is not fair. If the Minister wants a way out of the difficulty, there is an easy one for him. Let the Board sent out instructions that in all cases the sum paid by the Board shall be equal to the transitional payment and the supplementary payment, and let the officers of the Board themselves appeal against that. That puts all the unemployed in the same position. Why should the board give the smaller sum and let the man appeal to the tribunal, where his case is three parts lost before he gets there?

I do not know whether the hon. Member has followed closely what the Minister has said. I should very much like to know whether his statements are right. I understood the Minister to say that this was to be allowed without appeal.

All I said was that we are now in doubt as to whether the Board will give the man the two payments. All that we have from the Minister is the same assurance that we had last December about all the unemployed—that there would be elasticity, that there would be appeals, and that the man would be adequately protected. What I want to know is, why this exception is made. The Minister has not replied on that point. He says it is because the case is an exceptional case, but as regards investigation it is not exceptional. I know he is not responsible for it; he has been made a catspaw. The Ministry of Health and the Ministry of Labour have been bitterly hostile to those local authorities who have been making these supplementary payments, and will not accept them, and now the right hon. Gentleman expects us to believe that these Departments, which have been going their very utmost to depress these assessments, are going to accept them now. The Minister may say, "There ought to be no distinction between these two categories of unemployed people; I will accept the assessment of the local authority in both cases; but I will reserve the right on behalf of the Board and the unemployment officer to appeal against the assessment." I apologise for speaking again, but it is far better to put these things right now in the Committee of the House of Commons than to leave them to vague assurances given by the Minister in perfect good faith, but assurances which our experience informs us will not be carried out in the spirit in which he gives them in the House.

6.10 p.m.

Last night the Minister's reply, in my view, left the position rather vague. Personally I should have been inclined to accept the Minister's original statement if the matter had not been pressed further, because I thought then that an ingenious set of unemployed people could possibly have got all that they wanted provided that the agitation could be kept going. But, whatever may have been said at the beginning, the position has now been changed as the result of the cross-questioning that has taken place. Last night, either the Minister or the Parliamentary Secretary—I am not sure which—gave as an illustration the case of Greenock, and said something like this, that this supplementation was only carried out in a limited number of cases—that in England it was not widespread; in Scotland, considering the population, it was a little more widespread—and, consequently, it was not serious. Roughly speaking, the position under the Scottish Act, and I think under the English Act as well, is that, when a local authority increases a person's relief by supplementation, that local authority must see that the person is in need of it, and must do it individually. That is the law of Poor Law relief. In other words, although they may have a scale which allows an unemployed person a shilling or two more than, say, the Employment Exchange scale, or a shilling or two more than almost all the other local authorities, they must at least see that each case is examined either by the authority or by a responsible official of the authority. In my own city, the local authority has said that a child should have 3s., which means an augmentation of 1s.; but, in order to make that legal, the local authority has to see that each person proves his need of the 3s. That sum of 3s. was obviously laid down as a guide to those in charge of the administration, in order to avoid large variations in a particular district; but each person had to prove need.

If the Minister persists in his view, this position will arise: Under the law, standard benefit can be augmented. In other words, a man who has just fallen out of work can receive from the local authority 3s. for his child, always on the basis that it has been proved that he needs it. On the other hand, the man who has been unemployed for a long time, who has been dismissed from the fund and is receiving able-bodied relief, is for that reason regarded as not being normally in insurable employment. If the Minister does not grant this concession, he is putting a handicap, very often, on decency and capacity, because most of our able-bodied unemployed—I should say 90 per cent.—would come within this definition of not being normally in insurable employment, owing to their long period of unemployment. If a man has argued his case and shown that he was an exception above the average, he is penalised. The group that is penalised is not the standard benefit group. They still get the augmentation. It is not the able-bodied group. They still get the augmentation. Is there any reason why that group should not be supplemented? I understand that the Minister says the extra shilling can be granted if it is proved an exceptional case of need. They have assessed the child at 3s. and have paid the augmentation from their fund, but the Minister comes along and says, "No, you have done that, and you will continue doing it for two groups of unemployed, but this poor devil must not have it."

I must ask the Minister to reconsider the position. The local authority paid it out of their depleted funds. The Glasgow Corporation, Labour as they are, are not over-generous. They do not throw money away. The Minister has either to say that the board shall treat the poor law authorities' determination in respect to supplementation in the way they do the other determinations, or, if he cannot go as far as that, allow the local authority to resume what they have done before, that is, where they were convinced that the person was in extra need, to allow the supplementation as before. The problem in Glasgow has been not merely a problem of food and clothing but of shelter. Glasgow has a terrible housing problem. Our courts are packed every day. When I started coming here first they only met twice or three times a week. To-day they are meeting five or six times a week, and are packed out. To some extent the problem has been eased by this supplementation, which has been valuable in helping to tide these people over, and the rent problem has become less acute. I ask the Minister to give us a much wider and more gracious assurance of the local authorities' powers. In this carrying-over period he might reconsider the whole position and allow the local authorities to carry on with the supplementation, because it is one of the things that have caused considerable criticism and annoyance.

6.23 p.m.

When we approached the Clause there were two points about which we were very much concerned. One was the possibility of the exclusion of certain applicants from the attentions of the Board. The other was the amount of supplemental allowance which might be forthcoming when the Board made its assessment. I think the latter position is much more serious now than it appeared to be when we were discussing the limited scope of the Order. Now it is clear that the Minister is quite unable to fulfil the object of restoring all the cuts to those who had been applicants before the Board. I think it is clear to the Minister that the additional allowances were made by the public assistance committees, not because of special circumstances but because in their opinion the scale allowed was not sufficient to meet the needs of the respective families. In Glamorgan and Monmouth we have been held guilty of lax administration because we recognised that the allowances that were acceptable to the Minister of Health and the Minister of Labour were not adequate to meet the needs of families. So we made generous allowances, which included what might be the supplemental allowances of local authorities in other parts of the country. I do not think the position can be met at all except by the insertion of a provision in the Bill that it is still the intention of the Minister to make good all the cuts, and that the additional allowances will continue during the operation of the Bill.

No one knows how long the Bill is to operate. No one knows how wide may be the gap between the payments made in this kind of case and the payments previously made. The House wants to avoid a repetition of the confusion and ill-feeling that were exhibited a few days ago. I urge the Minister to assent to this as the only way open to them. They should treat the assessment of the public assistance committee in its dual capacity, in its capacity as administrator of transitional benefit and in its second capacity as administrator of Poor Law relief. I ask that the Bill shall be so fashioned that the assessment to be made in future shall be equal to the double assessment, or that the double assessment previously made shall be counted as one, and whatever deficiency exists between the assessment now made and the double assessment previously made shall be made up. That is the only way in which the Minister can fulfil his declaration of a few days ago, it is the only way in which public opinion can be satisfied outside and it is the only way of doing justice to the unemployed who have suffered under this Act.

6.29 p.m.

I want to quote the Prime Minister on this. He had apparently been discussing the whole question, and he went on to say:

"The result, as soon as it was known, was at once the subject of a withdrawal and to-day those people whose scales seemed to have been cut are enjoying exactly the same pay that they would have had under the old conditions."

That was after the Minister's announcement on Tuesday. He went on to say:

"They are going to be revised so that these results will be brought about."

I tried last night to clarify the situation and, in spite of a sort of gentle protest from the right hon. Gentleman, I think I succeeded in getting him to clarify it so that we understood him. We are asking to-day that those persons whose transitional payment was supplemented by the public assistance committees shall, as the Prime Minister said, enjoy the same benefits that they lost when the Act first came into operation. That is as clear as I can make it. You will not have implemented the Prime Minister's pledge unless that is done. That is what is between us. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman really grasped the case that was made in this matter of the family needs assessment. It is a very dreadful thing in a household where a couple of old people are living, that, once the assessment is made, no members of that family, old or young, can get outdoor relief unless they are sick. If they can be kept just alive, they are not allowed to go to the public assistance committee. We are asking that the Minister shall say categorically that the people in this condition shall not be subject to the discretion of an officer, but that, as the Prime Minister said, they shall be put back into the same position as they were previously. I have not given the actual quotations, but a summary of the newspaper report of the speech at Luton last Friday.

6.31 p.m.

I will give the Minister a concrete case, of which I have dozens similar to it. Last Tuesday, when this matter was under discussion, I gave the Minister a number of cases, and on Saturday morning I received a letter from Lord Rushcliffe, the chairman of the board, asking me to send him those cases and any others I might have, and stating that he would have them investigated. As a result of that letter, I went into my constituency on Sunday where, both in Dumbarton and Clydebank, I found all the officials busy. No fault can be laid upon the officials locally for not doing their utmost to try to meet the great demands which are being put upon both their time and patience. Here is the concrete case I wish to place before the Minister. There will be hundreds of similar cases in the west of Scotland, and in every industrial area. This is how it works out. A man with a family, whose ages range from 19 years down to five years, received previously 34s. from the Exchange, and 25s. 6d. from the public assistance committee as supplementation, or marginal payment. He is now assessed at 39s. 6d. That is to say, he has an increase of 5s. 6d. from the Assistance Board's assessment, but loses 25s. 6d. marginal payment or local authority's supplementation, and has therefore suffered a reduction of £1. The Board will point out to this man that he has had an increase over his transitional payment of 5s 6d., and therefore will be allowed to keep the increase, whereas in actual fact the amount is less by £1 which, by the decision of the Minister, cannot be restored. That is how it has worked out up to now. Will the Minister give us an assurance now that this augmentation will be continued, and that owing to the change made by the new Bill the man is not to be penalised and will be as well off as formerly, and that when the unemployed go to get their pay this week-end they will not find that they have again been deceived? I have mentioned this concrete case so that the Minister may give us an answer, and we may know exactly how we stand.

6.36 p.m.

Will the Minister definitely state, as I understood was the case, that he will give instructions to the officers in charge of the administration of the transitional payments under the Act to take these cases into consideration? As far as I can see there can be no question that there are in every part of the country a large number of cases which will be affected, some more and some less, unless such an instruction is given. I think that my hon. Friends who have spoken will be satisfied if the Minister will state quite definitely and categorically that such an instruction will be given, and that no person previously receiving a certain sum will, because of the Act or in spite of it, be deprived of any portion of such sum. I hope that we shall receive that assurance, otherwise it will create difficulties, as has been pointed out.

6.37 p.m.

I wish to make an appeal to the Minister on the lines on which the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition has done, and for this reason. Having heard what was said by the Minister in the House last week, supplemented by what was said by the Prime Minister, I went to my division and said quite clearly that I understood that the cuts which had been instituted would be restored, and that the position would be as it was before this thing had happened. Now, if I am right in my understanding of what has been said lately, there is a doubt that this will be done, and it puts me in a very difficult position. I may be wrong in having come to that conclusion, but I appeal to the Minister to take into consideration Members of Parliament in my position, and to correct me if I took the matter up in a way that I ought not to have done. But, really, when I read over exactly what was said, I fail to see that I could have come to any other conclusion than that it was "as you were" for the time being. I, therefore, appeal to my right hon. Friend, as have hon. Members on both sides of the House, to make it quite clear that the position is to be as it was before the Regulations came into operation.

6.39 p.m.

I want to ask the Minister a question respecting a slight point. It may be a point which is clear to the rest of the Committee, and, if so, I apologise for putting it, but I cannot quite understand it. What will happen in this case? Suppose a local authority raises the scale of public assistance subsequently to the date on which an applicant has had his case re-assessed under this Clause? The public authority will no longer be dealing with people who are under transitional payment. They will have all been transferred, but they will be dealing with a large number of people whose circumstances are exactly analogous, and can properly be dealt with on the same scale of assistance by the public authority. If the public authority, stimulated by all this discussion, and what has been discovered about payments in other areas, raises its scale to all people still under its authority, what will happen to the people who have been re-assessed under this Clause on the lower scale? Will they be able to appeal again and get a further determination so that they can be raised to the figure they would have received if they had remained under the scale of the local authority? I hope I have made the point clear.

6.40 p.m.

If I understand the point of the Opposition with regard to the supplementation of unemployment allowances, I rather understand that what they desire to see is that in every case where the local authority has supplemented transitional payments to the unemployed, they should be allowed to supplement the payments of the Board in the future. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] I understood that that was their point of view.

It was the point made by the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan), and I rather gathered that he was re-stating the view of the Opposition.

I understand that unless we repeal the original Act, the public assistance committee cannot give any relief. We want the Government to meet the pledge that the Prime Minister gave, and which I think the right hon. Gentleman also gave, that the applicants who now come under the Unemployment Assistance Board should not be in a worse position than they were when they were under two authorities.

Let me make the position clear. The local authority have been able to supplement the amount of unemployment benefit, but in future they will not be allowed to do it in respect of these classes. We ask that folk in this category who will suffer a cut of the supplementation should not be dealt with in this way. In Glasgow an allowance was made in the case of children of 3s. instead of 2s. but under the present arrangement the section who come under transitional payment will not get the extra 1s. in respect of the child, because the local authority will not be allowed to give it. The point is that it will not be taken into account and paid as if it were in connection with transitional payment.

The hon. Member may disagree, but the point is that from that Box the Minister has not said that they will be allowed to do it. If the hon. Member can get him to say that, and get the 1s. extra I shall be quite satisfied.

He made it clear that in the first place that every case where supplementation was made in the past is to be treated as a special case. Upon its treatment as a special case the officials of the Board and the appeals tribunals have absolute discretion to give up to any amount wherever need exists, so that wherever a local authority in the past gave supplementation, and the need exists—hon. Members opposite agree that supplementation was not given where need does not exist—then we may assume that supplementation will be given in the future. That is perfectly satisfactory so far as I am concerned.

6.46 p.m.

It would perhaps clear matters if I read to the Committee the instructions given by the Board to their officers in regard to this matter.

"ASSISTANCE INSTRUCTIONS: STANDSTILL ARRANGEMENTS—SUPPLEMENTATION OF TRANSITIONAL PAYMENTS BY LOCAL AUTHORITIES.

In a number of cases local authorities have been supplementing transitional payments at the maximum rate by grants of outdoor relief. Where allowances are issued by the board, the supplementation of such allowances is prohibited by the Unemployment Assistance Act, and this position is not affected by the standstill arrangements.

Where on the review of cases under instruction A 17/35 it is found that relief was paid in supplementation of transitional payments there is a presumption that special need exists in the case. It is possible, therefore, that the assessment made under the Board's Regulations may equal or even exceed the total amount paid by way of transitional payments and supplementation. Where this has not been the case and the officer is satisfied that the grant of supplementary relief was not unreasonable, he may, by the exercise of discretion under the Regulations, increase the adjusted assessment under the Regulations up to an amount which may equal the amount of the previous determination of transitional payments with the addition of the supplementation. The discretion of the officer must be exercised upon the circumstances of each case"—

in Glasgow it is on the basis of need, and each case will be taken into account—

"and must not be applied without discrimination to whole classes of cases in which the local authority may automatically have granted supplementation."

6.48 p.m.

The point, therefore, is that the Minister in issuing his instructions gives a new discretion.

Anyhow, the right hon. Gentleman is responsible. The board is issuing these instructions and the right hon. Gentleman in reading them to us was careful to read that it was at the discretion of the board's officers under the new instructions to decide whether that supplementation will be continued. I am perfectly certain that the people who read the statement of the Minister last week and who heard the Prime Minister last Friday did not think that there was going to be a new investigation before they received what both the Minister of Labour and the Prime Minister said they would receive. What is the object of the standstill arrangement? It surely is to give everybody back that to which they had been entitled. That was the Prime Minister's argument. It is no use the Parliamentary Secretary muttering remarks. He knows as much about this as anybody. I look upon him as the villain of the piece. There was a great deal of talk last night about breaches of faith and whether or not we would take the Minister's word. There was not a man, or woman last week who was interested in this matter who did not think from what they were told that the standstill arrangement was that people should not be worse off than they had been before the Act came into operation, that they would be paid back what they had lost, and that the whole position would be reviewed by the new Bill.

I am not questioning the right hon. Gentleman's personal honour in this matter. As was said the other night by the Noble Lord the Member for Hastings (Lord E. Percy) people in making statements on political questions very often do not make them in quite the style that ordinary people understand. In this matter the right hon. Gentleman has been at great pains to tell us that we should accept his word. Last Tuesday night when I heard what had been done I thought, "This is an extraordinary position for the Government," and I thought that what we are asking for to-day had happened. But when I had had a night's sleep over it and had read the matter next morning, I came to the conclusion that the right hon. Gentleman only meant transitional payments and that where they had been cut they would be restored. Later on I put a question to him and I understood from him that that was so. He has gone some way to meet us, but he wants us to leave it to the discretion of the officers. I want the right hon. Gentleman to face up to the position. Although he may understand and I may understand this business fairly clearly, it is not clear to the men and women in South Wales and to people in London. In my division I have had people coming to me every day about this business. People who live under Labour councils, and many others, do not understand why they are not getting just what they had before.

I again appeal to the right hon. Gentleman not to accept this decision of the board but to tell them that they must think again and must implement the declaration of himself and the Prime Minister. We are not dealing with bits of wood in this matter, but with human beings. A shilling is nothing to me or the right hon. Gentleman. We spend a shilling or five shillings and it does not make any difference, but to these poor people a shilling makes a great deal of difference. When it comes to a lot of shillings it means the difference between mere existence and life. I hope that even now the right hon. Gentleman will take the instructions back. I know that it is a big decision we are asking him to make. It is a decision of honour for these poor people who, last week, in their trials, thought that they were going back to the old conditions. I wish the right hon. Gentleman would tell us that he will take it back and reconsider the whole matter, even if he cannot go the whole way that we are asking him to go.

6.52 p.m.

I think the right hon. Gentleman is not quite justified in talking about personal honour, in view of the statement that he made himself. On thinking over my speech of Tuesday he realised that the effect of it was to restore the position with regard to transitional payments. I am not making this point from the mere debating point of view. We all want to do the right thing. I do, however, rather resent its being put not simply on the ground that people are going to suffer hardships but on the ground that my personal honour is involved, and that I am breaking a pledge that I made. The right hon. Gentleman himself has disproved that, because he admitted that he realised, on considering what I had said, that the pledge I had given did not extend to cover those cases. From other quarters of the House I have had appeals in regard to this instruction and I am perfectly prepared to take up this question with the Board and see whether the Instruction which they have given will not enable all the cases of hardship to be covered, and whether they are prepared to make any other arrangements.

6.55 p.m.

In spite of the preamble to the right hon. Gentleman's statement, I want to say to him "Thank you." I want also to say that I would not have said anything about personal honour but for the statement that the right hon. Gentleman made last night about his personal honour. Although I may have construed, and correctly construed, what the right hon. Gentleman intended, I do not believe that there are many people outside this House who did not construe it the other way.

May I say, in reply to the hon. Lady the Member for the Combined English Universites (Miss Rathbone), that the scales will be those of the 7th January.

6.56 p.m.

I have listened very carefully to the discussion that has taken place and also to the Minister's promise to approach the Board with a view to reconsideration of the Instruction, and the effect of the Instruction in regard to applicants who have previously derived some benefits in supplementation from the public assistance committees. I would say in relation to the right hon. Gentleman's final statement to the Leader of the Opposition, that this matter must not be put to him in relationship to his own personal honour, that during the past few weeks the Regulations that have been put before us have been too tricky and cunning, and we have to make sure that there is a proper understanding of the language used, and what benefit is going to be derived from the language used in the Clause. It is all very well for the right hon. Gentleman to say, as he did last night, that he gives his personal assurance and that any person who is not prepared to accept that assurance would not accept any other form of proof. So far as last night is concerned, while I would accept his personal assurance regarding the attitude of the Government and the Board towards the scales, while we are prepared to accept the statement of the Minister as the statement of a man of honour, the country at the same time is entitled to expect that the statements which have been made by the Minister of Labour, the Prime Minister and other representative Members of the Government shall be implemented to the full. The country is in no mood at the present time to have any more of these cunning devices and tricks put across it.

It is all very well for the Minister to say, as far as I understood him last night, that the Board were giving the power to decide, after consideration, the supplementation to meet individual needs. But that is no guarantee that supplementation as a special need will be given in any one case, because if they are called upon to decide the matter they may decide that what was given in the past should not have been given and, therefore, they may not be prepared to give it in future as a question of special need. The Minister said definitely in the House that people would be put back to the position they occupied before the Regulations were put into operation. If that has been given as a pledge of honour to the House, then the House is entitled to expect that the pledge will be carried out to the full, and that these people are given that benefit. As the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) pointed out, there is the question of the persons handed over to the Board and who, under these Regulations, are being swept on one side, persons who had a supplementation of a shilling for each child, and, in the case of single persons, an extra two shillings. There is the case of a man, the head of a family and unemployed, summoned for arrears of rent and the Glasgow public assistance committee use their power of making a grant up to £5. Under the Board he goes to the public assistance authority for supplementation because of his rent, and receives a decrease of £4 15s., while the house factor refuses anything less than £4 15s. It is the difference between the house and the street.

It is important that we should know whether these things are to be continued in the stand-still regulations. In respect of applications for rent, the granting of an extra 1s. for each child, grants for maternity cases and clothing, grants for a large number of things in which there is supplementation in extreme cases, we hope that, in view of the hardships that may ensue, we may be entitled to expect that the Minister will live up to his reputation and the honour of which he is capable, and implement this promise through the Board. Supplementation should not be left to an official, but should be given in every case, because it was decided by a local authority as a case of special need. If you are taking the local authority's advice into consideration, anything short of complete restoration of their supplementation to every individual and family will be resented throughout the country. For all it means to the fund, the Minister, having conceded all that he has done, ought to go this further step for his own honour and that of the Prime Minister. We are entitled to expect that.

7.4 p.m.

The whole Committee, I think, will resent the suggestion of the hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. McGovern) as to the cunning and tricks of the Minister to deceive the country.

If the hon. and gallant Member will allow me, I did not impute any cunning devices or tricks to the Minister. The cunning devices and dodges in the Bill which came to light when attempts were made to work it were there to prevent ordinary Members from understanding its full implication. I did not impute any unworthy motives to the Minister.

I am sure the Committee will be glad to hear that withdrawal. I should like to supplement the appeal and remarks of the hon. and gallant Member for Montrose (Lieut.-Colonel Kerr). Last Tuesday night, when the Minister had finished, I sighed with relief and went to the telegraph office to send numerous telegrams to local authorities and individuals reassuring them that all their troubles were now at an end—

—and that all the cuts imposed under the Unemployment Assistance Board Regulations would be restored, and restored retrospectively. The next day I read through the OFFICIAL REPORT to make sure I was quite right, and when satisfied that I was right, I wrote confirming the telegram. Naturally it was with a tremendous sense of sorrow I found out that possibly I conveyed a false impression to those who were relying so much on the news I sent. I gladly accept the Minister's assurance. Instead of the word "may" in the instruction from the Board to their officers, could not the word "shall" be substituted?

7.7 p.m.

I have as much sympathy as anyone else with those who suffered cuts. I hope the Minister will not be forced into the position which a vast majority of the speeches have tended to force him in the last two hours. There is provision under the old Regulations and under this Bill which gives to every applicant the right to appeal, and the right of putting before the Board any special considerations which he as an applicant may have in so far as the expenses of the household are concerned. I submit that the great complaint of the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) which was supported by the hon. Member for Gower (Mr. D. Grenfell) that this Bill left out a very important section of the unemployed, shows that Members on the other side are attempting to introduce something else into the Bill which will establish and legalise a vast army of differing rates of pay for unemployed all over the country, according to what has been paid by the local authorities in the past. In my opinion, that has caused much of the trouble which in the first place necessitated the Unemployment Act.

I believe that what we are all aiming at is already provided for in the Bill. It provides for the case mentioned by the hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood), where a man received an increase of 5s. 6d. per week and, on the other hand, lost £1 a week. His transitional payment was 34s., which the local authorities supplemented with £1. The 34s. was supplemented with 5s. 6d. by the Board, but the net result was actually a loss of 14s. 6d. I would suggest that the additional supplementation so far as the Board is concerned was already pro- vided for under special requirements, and if that man had appealed to the officers of the Board on the basis of special requirements, the appeal would have had to go before the appeal tribunal, and unquestionably the need would have been met. What will happen if the suggestion to the Minister this afternoon is adopted? We are to have a thousand and one differing rates throughout the whole of the country, and the grievances of hon. Members opposite will be amplified rather than met. I sincerely trust that if we are going to settle this problem, we do so honestly, and settle it on a basis for the whole of the country, and not argue that where you have given generously you should establish that as a minimum rate.

I think that this discussion is developing far beyond the Question, "That the Clause stand part." Certain questions have not been improperly referred to, but it is not permissible to go into all these details.

7.11 p.m.

I am given to understand—I must apologise for not being in the Committee when the statement was made—that the Minister will accept personal responsibility for payments.

I think it would be better if those who were here told the hon. Gentleman what I said.

I understand from my hon. Friends that the position as it now stands is that the Board will give instructions to local officers to have regard to these cases. If the steps taken by the Board fail to have the result that the Committee desire, the Minister himself has assured us that he will take steps. If that is not so, the whole position is unsatisfactory, and the Minister is not implementing his promise.

7.13 p.m.

The Minister, I think, intends to approach the Board on this matter. I hope too much attention will not be paid to the speech of the hon. Member who argued that people can appeal. Does he ever go to appeal boards and see them at work?

It is a trivial thing about appeals. It is not in the picture at the moment. I trust that whatever else the right hon. Gentleman, the Minister will do this thing generously, and not in a niggardly fashion. So far he has not been ungenerous. We ask him to go a quarter of an inch more to make this generosity full. Let him do the thing generously, and not worry about such niggardly arguments as appeals.

Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

CLAUSE 2.—(Postponement of the second appointed day.)

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

7.16 p.m.

This Clause postpones the second appointed day, that is the day upon which the able-bodied poor are to be transferred from the care of public assistance committees to the care of the new board. I want to deal with the financial consequences of this postponement. The original date for the coming into operation of this part of the Act was intended to be the 1st October last year. The right hon. Gentleman may be surprised, but my friends on municipal authorities in London and other parts of the country tell me that they made urgent representations to his predecessor to stand by the original date, 1st October. It may be that circumstances outside the Minister's control have compelled him to insert the later date of the 1st March, 1935. The Clause postpones the appointed day to a date not yet determined, and having done that, the care of able-bodied poor is still left with local authorities. When the principal Act was passed local authorities naturally assumed that it would come into operation, and that the able-bodied poor would pass out of their care on the 1st March. Therefore, in preparing their budgets for the ensuing year they took into account the fact that there would be a considerable saving in expenditure to them because they would be no longer entrusted with the care of the able-bodied poor. This second postponement, made without their knowledge, puts back upon local authorities an expenditure which the principal Act removed, and no provision is made for covering the expenditure which is being imposed upon them. In some places it amounts to a consider- able sum, a sum sufficient to disorganise a local authority's budget and accounts. It is true that the Financial Memorandum to the Bill says that:

"Further legislation will be required at an early date to make any necessary financial adjustments for the period of postponement."

To local authorities that does not seem sufficiently definite. The duty which we are putting upon them, a duty of which they could legally expect to be relieved, is quite definite. The amounts they will have to pay are certainly definite, and in my view it is only proper, if we put this charge on local authorities to meet the convenience of the Government, that an undertaking should be given that they will be in a no worse financial position because of Clause 2. It may have been thought that this was the intention, I thought so myself when I first read the Financial Memorandum, but a great deal of misgivings and dismay has been caused in some parts by the words used by the Parliamentary Secretary last night. Let me quote them:

"They will also, obviously, have to have some contribution from central funds. What exactly that will be I cannot at this moment say, but my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer and my right hon. Frined the Minister of Labour will"—

do what?

"take an early opportunity of discussing the matter with the local authoriteis. New legislation, of course, will be needed both to cancel their contributions and to decide on the amount of monetary contribution which will be required to enable them to carry the burden."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th February, 1935; col. 1784, Vol. 297.]

The burden being the able-bodied unemployed, which we are passing back to them. I suggest that the amount of the contribution is not a matter for conferences and negotiations. The amount which local authorities are entitled to expect, and indeed entitled to receive, is the whole sum for which they will be charged by reason of this alteration in the law. It is a serious matter. The Unemployment Act has been so recently passed. It was passed at a time when local authorities were starting the preliminaries of their financial budgets, and they have proceeded on the assumption that what this House has passed is the law, and will remain the law. Therefore, it is not the fault of local authorities; it is entirely due to the chaos which has been caused by the operation of the regulations. It is due to the fact that the Government, for their own convenience, are putting back on local authorities a duty which it had taken away; entirely for the convenience of the Government local authorities are being asked to bear this burden. I suggest that the least that can be done to clear the situation and enable local authorities to face their financial future with certainty, to do common justice and comply with the most ordinary and reasonable legal requirements, is a complete and definite undertaking before the Clause is passed that local authorities will receive from the Exchequer the sum, and not less than the sum, they are called upon to disburse. In other words, that the passage of this Clause will leave local authorities in no worse a financial position than they would have been had the original Act operated.

7.27 p.m.

I expect that most hon. Members have received a circular from the County Councils Association, signed by their secretary, Mr. S. M. Johnson, in which they complain that the county councils have been misled in the past. Let me read some remarks in the circular and then touch upon a point which concerns my own county in particular. The circular reads:

"As you are aware, difficulties have recently arisen regarding the Regulations made under Part II of the Unemployment Act, 1934. The Government have now given notice in the following form of the presentation of a measure entitled Unemployment Assistance (Temporary Provisions) Bill."

Then the circular contains the Clause of the Bill to which reference has already been made, and it goes on to say:

"You will observe from this notice that a further postponement of the second appointed day, now fixed for the 1st March next, is contemplated."

And this is the significant sentence in the circular:

"In this connection it is material to remind you that the association protested, unfortunately without success, against the original postponement from the 1st October last on the ground that this was contrary to the agreement reached between the association and the Government in regard to the financial provisions of the Act and as involving a substantial decrease in the savings on out relief which would otherwise have accrued to the county councils in England and Wales for the financial year 1934–35."

They have already been placed in a difficult financial position because the Government failed to observe the arrangement made with the County Councils Association.

The hon. Member, following the example of some other hon. Members, has referred to an arrangement between the local authorities and the Government as to the 1st October. I wonder if he can tell me between whom and when that arrangement was concluded.

From the circular one would gather that the arrangement was made between the County Councils Association and the Minister of Health. I think we have debated this matter in the House and that the Minister of Health endeavoured to disprove the statement. Still we have this document which has been sent to hon. Members as recently as this week. I do not think there can be any dispute that the County Councils Association is definite upon some arrangement or undertaking at the time with some one on behalf of the Government. They do not mention it in the circular. However, it is obvious that any postponement from the 1st March to a later date must place them in a more prejudiced position, and we ask that Clause 2 should be deleted and that the Government should give us a much better assurance than was given by the Minister of Labour last night. In replying to many questions put by hon. Members in all parts of the House, he said: nothing to indicate that the local authorities will be fully reimbursed. We are entitled, particularly if we have some connection with local authorities, to satisfy them that they will be reimbursed.

There is one other point that concerns the county in which my constituency is, and that is the county of Glamorgan. A computation has been worked out for me by the staff of the Glamorgan County Council, and there is one point that concerns that county. It may not concern others, and yet perhaps it may concern all the counties that came under the distressed areas grant provisions of last year. It certainly concerns Glamorgan. Last year we obtained in Glamorgan a special distressed area grant of £66,000. From the computation supplied to me it would seem that that £66,000 is to be taken into consideration by the Minister of Health and is to be subtracted from the total sum they otherwise would receive for the maintenance of the able-bodied persons in that county. This is the computation. The cost per week of the able-bodied unemployed of Glamorgan is £1,600. That, multiplied by 52, gives a cost of £83,200 for the year. Then the Ministry of Health are trying to deduct the grant of £66,000. That leaves a sum of £17,200. Sixty percent. deducted as the county contribution is £10,320. The county will be entitled to £6,880 on the second appointed day, 1st March.

My point is that, apart from the fact that the second appointed day is postponed, it is unfair that the Ministry of Health should take into consideration the £66,000 that was allotted to Glamorgan last year under the distressed areas grant. Glamorgan is as much distressed this year as it was last year. I do not know whether it has been singled out in this regard. Perhaps the Minister of Labour will inquire. Perhaps it is in precisely the same position as all the other areas that received money under the distressed areas grant of last year. That is the £500,000 that was distributed among five or six distressed areas. If Glamorgan is placed in a singular position it is distinctly unfair to Glamorgan. It is equally unfair if the same method is applied to all the distressed areas. Surely money was not given in one year in order that it might be taken away from them the following year in anticipation that special provisions were to be contained in a Bill that was to become an Act in July of the following year.

I hope that the Minister of Labour will make further inquiry into the matter and remove what is conceived to be a singular injustice to Glamorgan and to other distressed areas. I am hoping that after consultation with the Minister of Health on the point any money which is due, whenever the appointed day is fixed, will be paid regardless of any distressed area grant that may have been paid in the past.

7.37 p.m.

As regards the point raised by the hon. Member for East Fulham (Mr. Wilmot), who referred to the speech made yesterday by the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Labour, I am sure that quite unintentionally he conveyed a wrong impression of the attitude of the Minister. He should have quoted the concluding words of my right hon. Friend last night. Those words were:

"The Chancellor of the Exchequer, I understand, intends to enter into immediate negotiations with representatives of the local authorities to ensure that he can agree with them fair compensation for the burden that has been put upon them by the postponement of the date."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th February, 1935; col. 1884, Vol. 297.]

I support the claim made by the hon. Member who has just spoken, that there should be compensation given equal to every penny of the extra burden. That is important. To-day I have received a letter from the county council of which I am a member, and they are most concerned that any extra expense incurred should be fully recoverable. I take it that the words I have quoted mean that there will be full repayment in this respect. One other point has been raised. An hon. Member said it was understood that 1st October is the date on which the Act will come into force. For many years I have been vice-chairman of our county finance committee. Speaking from memory what happened was this: There was no official statement made, not even a semi-official statement, but it was generally understood that the Act was to come into operation about October or November. On our county finance committee we acted on our own judgment. We said, "No, the Act will not come into operation until later." We thought it would be about 1st January.

On a point of Order. The hon. Member is now speaking as a member of a county council. When the local authorities both in Scotland and England met together yesterday they were unanimous. They understood that the date was 1st October, and not January at all.

The hon. Member is not raising a point of Order. The hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Loftus) is in possession of the Commitee, and if he chooses to give way the hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood) can continue.

When the hon. Member for Ogmore (Mr. E. Williams) was speaking just now the Minister of Labour interrupted in order to ask who it was that was responsible for the date 1st October. I put a question to-day to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I had addressed it to the Secretary of State for Scotland, but it was transferred to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and I got the reply. The facts are these: As the hon. Member stated, there was an impression created, and that impression was so powerful an impression that the local authorities throughout the length and breadth of Britain thought that they were quite safe in calculating on 1st October. No one knows that better than the present Minister, because I approached him on the matter immediately he came on to the job, and I approached the Chancellor of the Exchequer with a view to his receiving a deputation from the local authorities of Scotland, but he refused to see it.

I gave way to allow my hon. Friend to clear up a point. I have no intention of pursuing the financial aspect any further. I want to deal with the human consequences, as to me they are extraordinarily tragic, and I have not heard them mentioned once in the course of the Debate yesterday or to-day. I want to make an appeal to the Minister. I met two or three weeks ago from 200 to 300 of the unemployed in my constituency. I got the usual results. There were many hard cases.

Has the hon. Member forgotten what we are discussing at the moment. We are discussing Clause 2.

Yes, Sir, the postponement of the operation of Part 2 of the Act as regards public assistance cases. I was about to point out that the average increase in families where there were no other resources coming into the house was 7s. a week. I had the secretary of the unemployed with me and he agreed, and the people were looking forward to March 1st as the date, as I was myself. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition said an hour ago that a shilling means so much to the unemployed. He said that 5s. meant an immense thing to them. I have been in their homes and know what it means. These people have been anticipating getting 5s. 6d. or 7s. or 8s. more on March 1st. It means much to the children. I know houses where it means milk for the children. Now comes this postponement. I appeal to the Minister to give some word of hope to these people and to myself who represent them. I appeal to him to say that the postponement will not be for long but will be for as short a time as possible, because every day of postponement means a delay in improved conditions, in better food and better clothing for the children.

If there is to be a long postponement of two or three or four months, could not the Minister urge the local authorities to bring their payments up to the scales laid down in the Regulations where there are no other resources coming into a household? I would ask him to urge the local authorities to do so and also to say to the local authorities that he will refund the money. I tried to get my county council to do it but the proposal was defeated. I feel now that some sort of assurance should be given either that the appointed day will not be postponed for two or three or four months or, failing that, that the Minister will authorise the local authority to raise their scales in the manner I suggest. That is my plea. I realise that it would be impossible to carry out the terms of the Amendment which appears on the Paper and to delete the Clause because the machinery and organisation is in such a state to-day that there must be a postponement. If it were practicable I would vote for the Amendment but I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to give some word of hope to those people who have been expecting benefits and who now see those benefits denied to them.

7.47 p.m.

I consider that a wise decision has been taken by the Government in the postponement of the second appointed day, but I do not find myself in agreement with the hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Loftus) that the second appointed day should be as soon as possible after 1st March. The Unemployment Assistance Board has been working overtime and it would be difficult for them to make all the necessary arrangements for taking over the care of those of the able-bodied poor who are at present in the hands of the public assistance committees, without having some time in which to put everything into proper order. Therefore, I consider that it would be wise, in all the circumstances, to allow a certain reasonable interval to elapse between 1st March and the second appointed day. My local authority have already adopted the same scale for the public assistance committee in relation to the able-bodied poor, as that laid down in the regulations and as that is altered from time to time then the public assistance committee will alter their scale—I hope beneficially—so that a real hardship in Edinburgh ought not to arise. The only real question raised by this Clause is that of the financial arrangement between the local authorities and the Exchequer. It seems to me that the point is a simple one. On 1st March the local authorities anticipated that they would have a certain relief, that a certain percentage of the cost of maintaining the able-bodied poor would be taken off them. It would be a simple matter for negotiation between the local authorities and the Exchequer to decide the amount of that relief which has been postponed, and I take it that a definite assurance has been given, as indicated in the Financial Memorandum, that the matter will be adjusted in due course.

I wish to challenge a statement made by the hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood). He said that local authorities in Scotland were all agreed that the second appointed day was to have been in October last. The allegation has been made in certain parts of the country that there was some understanding or agreement between the local authorities and the Government, or certain Ministers or Departments of the Government. On certain occasions requests have been made that some evidence should be produced of that agreement. So far, to my knowledge, no such evidence has been adduced and, therefore, I think the allegation must fall. Let me test it in this way. Edinburgh, I think, has the same channels of communication with Government Departments as other local authorities. The Edinburgh officials approached me from time to time and asked me to find out when the second appointed day was likely to be. I passed on all the information I could get from the Ministry of Labour, the date being uncertain according to all the information which I could get and according to the information which the local authorities could get from elsewhere. Edinburgh wisely, I think, budgeted on the assumption that the second appointed day would not be until the end of the financial year. If other local authorities did otherwise I think they were taking a risk which, in the circumstances, they were not justified in taking.

7.52 p.m.

I rise to reply to that challenge, and the Minister need not look so fierce. He cannot have everything his own way, and as my statement has been challenged I am entitled to reply. My statement was that yesterday the Scottish local authorities in conjunction with the English local authorities were unanimous in saying that they were of the opinion that 1st October was the date. That was what I said and that is my information. That is what the deputation told us last night, and it is no "carred story" as far as I am concerned.

7.53 p.m.

I am sorry to intervene, but as my other colleagues from Liverpool are not present I feel bound to put the position of Liverpool before the House. Whatever opinion in Scotland may have been, opinion in Liverpool was quite definite. Last year the city council only budgeted as regards July with the expectation that we would have to bring in a supplementary estimate to deal with the position afterwards. We were informed that the local authorities, after communication with the authorities in London, believed that the appointed day was likely to be in October, though it was not definitely fixed. A deputation came to this House to interview the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The present Minister would not know of what transpired then, and I can tell him definitely that there was no doubt about the fact that Liverpool anticipated that the second appointed day would be 1st October.

This is what actually transpired. Our treasurer, our local chancellor of the exchequer, the late Sir Max Muspratt, budgeted for July, but he thought that we would later on have to come along with a supplementary budget. Then we ascertained that it was most likely that the day would be in October. We suffered a lot through the putting back of that date. I have a letter from the Town Clerk of Liverpool pointing out that the sum of £264,000 which is our deficit is based upon the fact that in preparing the public assistance committee estimates in February, 1934, for the year ending 31st March, 1935, it was fully anticipated that the urgently needed relief of the distressed areas would be forthcoming by 1st July, 1934, and the sum required from the rates for the current year was calculated accordingly. It is pointed out that the postponement of the appointed day until 1st March next will therefore have the effect of involving our city in a supplementary demand of approximately £302,000, less £38,000, or a net figure approximately of £264,000 in respect of the period of eight months between 1st July, 1934, and 1st March, 1935.

Those figures are authentic. They have come to me under the seal of the city of Liverpool from the city treasurer and can be accepted by the House. They are not figments of the imagination but definite proof that we are financially embarrassed as a result of this change in the appointed day. It may be that the Minister is not aware of what preceded the postponement of the appointed day, but there is no doubt about the fact that our deputation saw the Chancellor of the Exchequer and went back to Liverpool fully convinced—without any definite promise, but virtually sure as to what was going to be done in regard to the appointed day. As I say, I regret I have to intervene in this matter in the absence of colleagues of mine from Liverpool who may differ from me in politics, but I desire to see this matter receiving the amount of attention that it deserves and I am obliged to stand forward on behalf of the city of Liverpool and to point out the injustice which has been done to my city. The following letter from Liverpool to myself and other hon. Members is dated 6th February, 1935:

The Government say they are anxious to take this question out of the ambit of politics and to bring new organisations into operation. Why should the financial responsibility be borne by those who have nothing to do with the operation of the Act? It would appear to me that any such arrangement is merely juggling and bad finance. I do not know that in any business house, when you enter into an agreement that on a certain date a certain body will take control, the obliga- tion of which you have rid yourself must still be borne by you. I notice one or two smiles from hon. Members, but it is not amusing for the people in the city of Liverpool, who have to find the money. We are badly depressed, and we feel that this obligation should be met.

My purpose is to carry out the wishes of the whole of the people of Liverpool, Tory, Liberal, and Labour, who formed the City Council, and who were unanimous in the opinion that the voice of the Government should be expressed in regard to the liability that falls upon it in this matter. I support the Amendment, because anyone who knows anything at all about accountancy or finance must be aware that this is an obligation with which the Government has no right to juggle. When we have depression and the rents of our people are going to be affected through the rates, this penalty ought not to be borne by those who have been relieved from this obligation. I am not adverse to the Minister with regard to the handling of this Bill to-night, except that he is the Minister, and I have no one else to whom to address my remarks. We feel in Liverpool that we are being badly treated, and I am speaking the opinion of the whole City of Liverpool when I say that. I go further and say that the leader of the council came here and made it clear that Liverpool was prepared to go to the full extreme and to counsel the Liverpool Members to vote against the Government. There was a meeting at the Caxton Hall, at which I was present, and it was decided that a vote should be taken against the Government unless it was able and willing to meet the commitments that have been placed on the city. We feel that it is a moral obligation on the Government, and, therefore, I support the Amendment.

8.5 p.m.

I, like other hon. Members, have received communications from the county and borough councils, which, whether with justification or not I cannot say, had acquired the impression that they would be relieved of certain responsibilities on the 1st October last. I know nothing of the negotiations, I do not know whether there is any warrant for that assumption, but it is quite definite from the Bill that the 1st March was to be the appointed day, and it is the announce- ment that it is not to be that has caused so much perturbation among a large number of authorities which had expected relief in the matter of their able-bodied unemployed. I have received from my county council a request that I should voice their grievance, and as a matter of duty I am doing it, but I want to represent the situation in a large number of these areas where it has certainly caused alarm.

Only last week a return was presented by the Minister of Health in regard to expenditure on out-relief, and I discovered that in certain of the distressed areas, as, for instance, in Glamorganshire, the total amount expended on out-relief was something like £300,000 for 1933–34. Therefore, these people yearn for some measure of relief. Take Carmarthenshire, a rather more rural area, and even there I find that the expenditure on out-relief was something like £30,000, and in a relatively small borough like Merthyr Tydfil it was £41,000 in the year 1933–34. Therefore, it is no use treating this matter lightly. Those people are apprehensive, and they have no assurance at the moment as to when, the new appointed day will be determined. They are struggling, they are carrying these heavy burdens, because the distressed area grants, though welcome, are quite inadequate, and it is natural, when you have areas where the rate in respect of poor relief is 15s., 16s., 17s. and 18s. in the £, that people in such circumstances should feel anxious. I realise the embarrassments of the Ministry and that a new situation has developed. One does not know how long the present standstill order will operate, and I beg the Minister to meet the local authorities as soon as possible and relieve them of their anxieties.

Secondly, I want earnestly to plead that full compensation be given. I think the local authorities understand, in the present situation, the impossibility of reaching an immediate decision, but I want them to have the assurance that, be the time long or short, adequate compensation will be given to them in respect to the additional expenditure involved by the postponement of this date.

8.9 p.m.

This legislation has opened up such wide possibilities that I hope I may be excused if I blunder in my remarks. I speak as a local administrator in full practice, limited only by the calls of this House, and I say that this postponement of the appointed day is most difficult. We have at the moment our annual estimates in draft. The Minister has not said there will be a postponement for three, for six, or for 12 months, and consequently they do not know what to do. I have, as a member of a local authority just outside London, heard nothing on the question from the Ministry. We have never heard of a fixed date. We have only had hopes. We hoped for the 1st July, we hoped very strongly for the 1st October, we had further hopes for the 1st January, and then we got the 1st March. Now that is being postponed again, and it is most difficult, because not only do we not know what we have to do with regard to unemployment assistance, but the whole financial position is an insoluble problem to us.

Local authorities, for instance, do not know whom the Unemployment Assistance Board are going to take. I know from the regulations that strikers are ruled out, and I learn from the regulations also that persons who refuse to comply with the conditions laid down by the board will be ruled out, but there is no indication as to what is to happen to them, and we do not know what other liabilities are to be placed upon us. I can foresee this, that the local authorities will soon be impaled on the horns of a dilemma. Yesterday the hon. Member for Spennymoor (Mr. Batey) quoted a case where, with eight people in the household, the two who had been adjudged the breadwinners of the household had walked out and left it, and there were a man, a wife, and four children left destitute. This man could get assistance neither from the new Board nor from the old public assistance committee, except that he got £1 worth of groceries and no further help.

I want to know what is to happen with these new assessments, as they are called. Take the case that I have just mentioned. If the absence of the people who walked out of that home is protracted, the public assistance committee, under its duty to the older law, is bound to relieve destitution, and then is it going to be said that it must enforce the decision of the Unemployment Assistance Board? Must it follow those two sons who walked out of the home, pursue them, and serve process on them? Is the public assistance committee to have the distasteful duty of enforcing the decision of the board?

I do not think the hon. Member's argument is applicable to this Clause. The position really is whether the second appointed day should come into force on the 1st March, the original date laid down in the resolution, or on a later date. I do not think the hon. Member can go into the question of what may happen when it comes into force, whenever that may be.

I half expected that Ruling, and that is why I asked you to excuse me if I blundered.

8.15 p.m.

I am sorry for the hon. Gentleman in the predicament in which he has found himself since he has been the Minister of Labour, for he has had a thankless task all along. He and the Parliamentary Secretary went a long way to be as clear as they could be last night in explaining Clause 1, but when they came to Clause 2 they were very indefinite. The Minister said:

"The Government realise that the position in which the local authorities are placed is no fault of their own and that the appointed day is postponed to suit the convenience of the Board and of the Government. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, I understand, intends to enter into immediate negotiations with representatives of the local authorities to ensure that he can agree with them fair compensation for the burden that has been put upon them by the postponement of the date."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th February, 1935; col. 1884, Vol. 297.]

I cannot see why, seeing that it is not the fault of the local authorities, the Minister could not say definitely that all the expenditure appertaining to this Clause will be undertaken by the Government. If the Minister had made that statement last night, we should not be opposing this Clause now. Opposition has come from all over the country, and I have received it from the West Riding County Council, which is the second biggest local authority outside the London County Council. Although we cannot find definitely where it was stated that the 1st October would be the appointed day, the executive of the County Councils Association, which was discussing and negotiating this matter previous to 1st July, were given to understand that the 1st October would be the date. I hold a document which is signed by the clerk of the West Riding County Council, and he states what he would not state unless he had the conviction borne in upon him as a member of the executive of the County Councils Association. He states in this circular:

"When the Bill was before Parliament it was anticipated that the 'second appointed day' would be not later than the 1st October last, and the postponement of that day to the 1st March, 1935, has imposed on local authorities a financial obligation not expected; and not in accordance with Parliamentary arrangements."

Sir Charles McGrath would not have put that sentence in this document if that executive had not had the impression from either the Chancellor of the Exchequer or whichever Minister met them that the 1st October was to be the day. The local authority are playing the square game, and I hope that the Minister will say, "Yes, and we will play the square game." I cannot understand why the Minister states that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will negotiate. What is there to negotiate about? There are no grounds for negotiation whatever, because the appointed day was definitely the 1st March. That being so, and as the postponement is not the fault of the local authorities, but the fault of the Government because of the mess they have got into, the Government should bear all financial responsibility from the 1st March. Sir Charles McGrath included this sentence in the circular:

"Whilst the county authority are willing, in order to help the Government, to continue to deal with this work for a further period, it is considered imperatively necessary that there should be forthcoming from the Government a clear and definitely expressed undertaking that local authorities shall not be placed in any worse financial position than they would have been if the 1st March, 1935, had continued to be regarded as the 'second appointed day'."

If they are prepared to help the Government out of this hole by administering through their officials—which will mean additional expense on the local authority—something which the Government had pledged themselves to take over on the 1st March, we ask that the Minister shall make a definite statement that the local authorities shall be reimbursed for any money they may expend as from the 1st March. Unless we get a definite understanding of that sort, I feel that we should divide on this Clause.

8.22 p.m.

I do not think it necessary to dwell at length on what has been the principal subject of this Debate, namely, the question, not of the 1st March, but of the 1st October. All I am concerned to emphasise and to make quite clear is that there was not, and never has been, any agreement between the Government and the local authorities that the 1st October was to be the appointed day. Although hon. Members who have spoken from all parts of the Committee have said that the local authorities had the feeling that it was going to be, or that the atmosphere was that it was going to be, or that they expected it was going to be the 1st October, none of them have pressed the claim that there was an agreement, which the Government have broken, that the 1st October should be the appointed day.

Let me pass to the subject of this discussion. The hon. Member who spoke last wishes to take this Clause to a Division and wishes, therefore, if he could have his way in the Lobby, to destroy the Clause and allow the 1st March to stand as the appointed day. I think other hon. Members who have spoken from those benches have agreed that, in fact, the postponement of the 1st March is a matter of necessity and that it would be impossible, if the 1st March stood, to deal adequately and justly with the many hundreds of thousands of people who would come under the Board's care upon that date. The real object of every hon. Member who took part in the Debate was the laudable object of taking the only Parliamentary course possible to raise the position of the local authorities under this postponement. I think that if they study the remarks I made upon this subject last night, they will see that I have gone as far in the direction that they desire as it would be possible for a Minister in my position to go.

I have admitted quite frankly that the object of this postponement is to suit the convenience, not of the local authorities, but of the Government, and it is clear that any Minister who enters into negotiations with the local authorities on the point of compensation, must and will bear that fact in mind. When hon. Members ask what there is to negotiate and why we do not say straight out that we will reimburse or recompense local authorities, I am sure they will agree with me that no Government and no Minister could say to the local authorities, "For an indefinite period you spend anything you like and the Government will automatically foot the bill." It is quite clear that the conditions under which this expenditure is made and the compensation to be obtained from the Government must be matters for negotiation between the local authorities and the Government, who realise that this does put a burden on the local authorities and that it is put upon them to suit the purposes of the Government and not of the local authorities.

Do I take that to mean that certification will be quite sufficient for your Department to accept the responsibility—Certification, that is, that there has been a real disbursement of the money for local distress?

That is exactly the kind of thing which I feel will have to be a matter of negotiation.

I appreciate that negotiation is necessary, but if the Minister will just say that the local authorities will be in no worse position by reason of the passing of this Clause than they would have been if the Act had been operated it will be all that we ask.

I cannot commit myself to the details of this. I can only say that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer and I realise that this postponement beyond the 1st March must be a great disappointment to the local authorities, who had thought that they had rid themselves of this financial burden for good; that the postponement is at the wish of the Government; and that the negotiations which have to be entered into with the local authorities have to be entered into on that basis and in that spirit. I understand that my right hon. Friend intends to start those negotiations as soon as possible, and I am confident that it will be possible, by agreement between the parties, to arrive at a result satisfactory to all.

Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

Clause 3 ( Short title and construction ) ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report the Bill, as amended, to the House."

I want to draw attention to the fact that there is a new Clause on the Order Paper standing in my name—( Transitory provision as to grant of out-door relief ).

I do not think the hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood) was present earlier when I indicated that his new Clause was outside the scope of the Bill, and therefore could not be called.

I have been here all day since Question Time, with the exception of a short interval. I would like the Chair to tell me why this new Clause is out of order. It empowers the Minister to carry out what we regard as the concession which he has given us. If he accepts the new Clause it will give him power to take the course which we think he is desirous of taking. It would enable public assistance committees to supplement allowances during the continuance of this Measure and until the Government's new proposals come into force.

I can assure the hon. Member that I have given his new Clause the most careful and the most sympathetic consideration. Unfortunately for him, this is not a Bill to amend the Unemployment Act, 1934, but to permit certain allowances to be paid temporarily to people who come under Section 59 of that Act. His new Clause would amend the Eighth Schedule of that Act, and although I have given it the most sympathetic consideration I have felt bound to rule that it does not come within the scope of this Bill.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill reported; as amended, considered.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."

8.31 p.m.

I think it is well that another word or two should be said before we dispose of this Bill. I have been here the whole day, and have heard every word that has been said, and I marvel at the resourcefulness of hon. Members, though I know the amount of repetition that does take place on a small Bill of this character. But we do not consider this to be a satisfactory Bill, as the Minister will have realised very clearly from the many speeches made by hon. Members on this side of the House. We do not think the Bill will meet the case of the unemployed, nor can any Bill do so which does not give adequate maintenance to those for whom work cannot be found. There has been a most unusual procedure in connection with this matter. The position of the Government has been the most pitiable sight that any Member of this House can ever remember. In my experience of 16 years I know of nothing comparable with the position brought about by this Government. Though I have no desire to see a change at the Ministry of Labour so long as we tolerate this Government as the Government of the day I do marvel that the Minister could turn such a somersault as has been sanctioned by the Government and still remain a Member of the Government. I do not say that in any rude manner, but, as far as my reading of political history goes, what has happened on this occasion is without precedent.

This shows that the Government are not in touch with the country at all. They have never been able to measure what would be the attitude of the country towards their legislation. The Unemployment Act was spoken of as a charter for the unemployed and the Regulations were to make things so much better for them. But immediately they were applied a storm broke out, and that storm overwhelmed the Government and produced the situation that we have seen. I disagree with the idea of blaming the officials for the administration of the Regulations. I agree with my hon. and learned Friend the Member for East Bristol (Sir S. Cripps)—I do not believe there was any flexibility in the Regulations. I do not believe there was any discretion to be exercised by the officials in carrying them out. Anyone who has been in local government for any time will quite understand that officials are not often given much discretion, and with 2,500,000 unemployed in the country, and more than 100,000 men suitable for their positions, how could those officials be expected to use discretion and give increased allowances? It would have meant that they would almost certainly lose their positions. Any official of the Board who had increased the amounts allowed under the Regulations would have been out of work within a week.

We have heard during this Debate a good many promises made by the Minister that are not implemented in the Bill and for which we have no documents except the OFFICIAL REPORT to guarantee that they are to be implemented. It is, I think, unique that a Minister should come forward, humbly, I admit—and I have no doubt about his sincerity—and make promises of what shall be done, and what it is his intention and the intention of his Department to do. May I say that while one man's word is as good as another's, promises by a Minister or declarations in this House are not the sort of things that Parliament relies upon—

I am sure that the hon. Member will feel the necessity of saying exactly what he means and exactly to what promises he refers.

There is the position of those who are to receive pay supplemental to that which is in the Regulations; that is one of the things, and a very important one. It has been pointed out in the latter part of the Debate to-day that we do not know what is to be the position with regard to that matter. In addition to that, while the Minister has made a promise in regard to new entrants, there is something for someone to watch very carefully to see what is going to happen. He has promised that those who were not in transitional payment on 7th January shall be dealt with quite fairly when they come into transitional payment.

This is rather important, because if people talk about promises now I have no doubt that they will accuse me of breaking them later on. The only promise which the hon. Member has brought forward so far is the promise, which I will repeat, with regard to the supplemental payments. What he is talking about now, in regard to the new entrants, is not a promise; it is in the Bill. If he refers to promises I have made he should specify them definitely now, so that I can know what the House expects, and be able to meet any charge later.

I have not the Debate before me, but I am sure there are promises that have been made, and I will leave it at that. I have no doubt regarding the right hon. Gentleman's sincerity in regard to carrying them into effect, but in a court of law promises made across this Table or statements made by Ministers will not be accepted.

I am sure that hon. Members in all parts of the House will sympathise with me. It is not fair for the hon. Member, speaking from that Box with great responsibility on behalf of his party, to refer to promises and to say that he and his party are going to see that they are kept, and not to be in a position to tell me and the House what those promises are.

I have no desire to go further in the matter. I made my statement, and that can be looked into. I say quite sincerely that not only the local authorities but our own party will very carefully watch this matter and see that these things are carried out in a proper manner.

The position of everyone who is entitled to benefit under this particular Bill. I suggest that it is a matter which the local authorities ought to take more into consideration than they have done, and the matter ought to be kept in consideration. I hope that the Minister is going to keep local authorities in front of this business, and that he is not going to get behind, through the officers of the Board, and ignore the public assistance committees in their work; but that he will seek the co-operation, encouragement and information, that they can give him through the knowledge which they have of this Bill and which is wider than it is in any other Department. We set a great value upon local government. It has had many knocks during the period of this Parliament, and we hope, now that we have had a change through the pitiable exhibition of the Government in regard to this matter, that the Government will come back to the local authorities and let them give all possible assistance.

There is the other matter with regard to Clause 2. I do not suppose that many people in local government will consider the arrangement that is likely to take place a satisfactory one. There are to be consultations between the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Minister of Health and the local authorities, but there are very grave doubts as to what is to be the result. A number of speeches have been made during the last hour or two from which it seems that hon. Members are not satisfied that they are to get that square deal, as has so often been repeated during the Debate. I do not know, and I do not suppose that anyone in the House knows, what will be the outcome of that discussion. The Minister again says that the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Minister can be relied upon to deal with these matters fairly and squarely. The only fair and square manner in which the matter can be dealt with, if an Act of Parliament is to be suspended to meet the desires of the Government, is that there shall be compensation for every penny which has been lost by the ratepayers of the country. I live in an area where the loss is said to be £1,600 or £1,700 per week; that is in the West Riding area. That is a serious matter, and I say to the local authorities that they should keep watch on this matter, and that they should keep an eye on the Government so that they are not mulcted in any loss.

I have very little more to say, except that we are not going to vote against this Bill. We accept the Bill, but I say quite honestly, truthfully and sincerely that we do not know what is going to happen in the future, or how long this Bill will live. I hope that we shall see no further regulations of a character like those which we have had before us, and I should like to see these Regulations withdrawn absolutely and scrapped from every point of view. What has happened during the last few weeks is sufficient to encourage us to say that it is time the Government were scrapped and another appointed in their place.

8.44 p.m.

The Government have been extremely wise in bringing forward this Measure, because if they had not done so we should have seen hunger marching this year in quite a new phase. The whole industrial population of this country would have been marching upon London. The Government by their policy have succeeded in antagonising pretty well the whole industrial population, employed as well as unemployed; we know that the employed are affected by the allowances. They have set on foot a movement which, I believe, it will be impossible to overtake, and which is bound to have a tremendous repercussions for many months or years to come and in which the fate of the Government is bound up. I believe that it will very profoundly affect the future of the Government, and will place it in a most serious situation at the next General Election. With regard to the position of the Minister, if it had been any other Minister than the right hon. Gentleman there might have been a good many suggestions that he should resign. I think that many of us who are political opponents of the right hon. Gentleman would wish him, perhaps, last of all Members of the Cabinet, to resign. One feels a great deal of sympathy and good will for him in the difficult position in which he has been placed. The responsibility is not his alone; it is that of the whole Government; and I think I could name a number of Ministers of much longer experience who could be spared very much more easily. He has brought some of those elements of youth and sympathy which one would have thought might have been of advantage to the National Government.

I think, however, that he was going rather too far yesterday when he almost seemed to suggest that, after all, what has happened could not be foreseen, that no one could expect that what has happened really would happen, and that the inevitable has occurred. I cannot help feeling that everyone in the House and in the country must think that there has been gross incompetence somewhere. It is perfectly obvious, and, wherever it may lie, the Government will pay for it very dearly indeed. The sort of spirit that it has stirred up in the country is well illustrated by a resolution which was passed on Monday by the Wolverhampton Town Council—a council which is very far from being dominated by Socialist elements. The resolution is as follows:

The hon. Gentleman is now getting far outside the Third Reading.

If you rule me out of order, I shall not refer to it further, but it seems to me to be rather an illustration of the kind of feeling which has been aroused in the country and which has compelled the Government to bring in legislation of this kind. If you would permit me to read it as an illustration of that feeling, I should like to do so. It is not very long:

"This council demands the withdrawal of the whole Unemployment Assistance Act of 1934 on the ground that the scales of allowances as applied constitute a dangerous attack on the standards of life of both employed and unemployed workers, the Regulations and the provisions for training are an encroachment on the liberty of the subject, and the whole spirit of the Act is one of treatment as criminals of that section of the community compelled by force of circumstances to be unemployed."

I quote that as a rather remarkable illustration of the sort of effervescence that is occurring in all parts of the country, even in a place where feeling is so moderate as it is in the town of Wolverhampton.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that that resolution is a stereotyped resolution which has been sent to practically every authority in the country, for ultimate distribution to Members of this House?

I do not see that that has anything whatever to do with it. My point is that it has been passed by a moderate non-Socialist council. I am very glad to know that steps are being taken to compensate the local authorities for the loss in which they would otherwise be involved. Wolverhampton would be losing revenue at the rate of £50 a month, and I venture to hope that the whole of such losses will be made up to the different authorities. It would be very interesting if the Minister were able to indicate the number of boroughs and county councils that have actually taken advantage of the power to act on the Sheffield analogy and make repayments. In my own constituency, which is partly borough and partly county council, it is only in the borough part that repayments are being made; in the other part they are waiting until Friday. It seems rather regrettable that it has not been possible to have a uniform system throughout the country. However, that is only a passing phase, and I presume that by Friday next the position will be regularised.

I think a good deal of exception is being taken to the repayment in kind which is being made by these authorities during the present week. I wonder if it would be possible for the Minister to give any indication yet of the amount of saving or extra expenditure that was taking place under the new Regulations before they were brought to a standstill. In the Debate a fortnight ago he assured me that the amounts were showing a steady weekly increase, and I have no doubt that that was what appeared to be the case at the time; but it would be interesting if we could know exactly how that has worked out throughout the country as a whole. A small point has been raised by some of my constituents, as to the extent to which a man who goes before an appeal tribunal, taking a friend with him can ask that friend actually to plead or speak on his behalf. I understand that what is happening is that, while the friend has been allowed to speak privately—

I rather think the hon. Member is now criticising the provisions of the main Act, which do not arise on this occasion.

The main matter that interests us now, if I am in order in saying this, is to ask the Minister, in dealing with the fresh regulations which will shortly have to be—

In view of your ruling, I will defer my remarks upon it until another occasion. The Government have, as everybody realises to their profound regret, made a first-class political blunder, from which they will have the gravest difficulty in recovering. The Minister, in making reference yesterday to the Sheffield case, said it was most unfair to make any attack on the Prime Minister and to attempt to pillory him for his action in that case. But who has been doing this pillorying? I am not referring to members of the Opposition; let me give a perfectly neutral and impartial statement on this subject. The "Times" newspaper, in its leading article the other day, headed "Revision without Panic," said:

"But, if suspension of the regulations is thus inevitable, its consequences must be faced without illusions and without panic. This warning is made the more necessary by the disquieting incident arising out of the proposal to grant permission to pay relief at the rates proper to the interim period last week instead of beginning such payments this week. This common-sense arrangement was proposed by the Sheffield City Council to the Ministry of Health; but the Prime Minister, when questioned about making it universal on Friday, said that he only knew about it when he opened his newspaper' that morning, and that he had been 'trying all the morning to get into touch with the Department' concerned. The impression of lack of cohesion, lack of decision, and lack of calm in dealing with this minor and preliminary point"—

I think the hon. Gentleman's remarks would really come better if they were made to-morrow.

I have practically concluded my quotation. The comment I was going to make was that the Prime Minister on that occasion seemed to have been deserted even by his private secretaries. The Government have placed themselves in an extremely difficult position. They are as a Government, in articulo mortis. I understand that desperate arrangements are being made—

Again, the hon. Member is travelling outside the scope of the Bill.

8.56 p.m.

It is time that someone thanked the Government from the bottom of his heart on behalf of the unemployed for changes of such a beneficial nature, which must affect advantageously the very classes who in the vast majority of cases sent us here to legislate on their behalf. This Bill restores the cuts. Does any hon. Member opposite desire it to do anything else? Does he desire that the cuts should not be restored?

I was just going to say the same thing. The Bill makes provision for men who will be going to the Board for the first time. I understand that hon. Members opposite desire that. Why do they not be honest about it and thank the Government for the concessions that the Bill contains? It is much appreciated in every industrial area throughout the country. Some people ask why the Government did not call upon the Minister to resign. The Bill puts an entirely different complexion on the manner in which this Government deals with immediate problems as compared with the preceding Government. If I remember aright instead of facing the problem as this Government has done, when the crisis came upon them they ran away. I want to thank the Government for facing it straightforwardly and for having presented something so tangible as to bring back in the shortest space of time the cuts which have unfortunately been made, perhaps through the obviously unseen operation of the Board.

On a point of Order. Would it be in order for us to have a discussion on the relative merits of the last Government and this Government?

I hope the Minister will expedite as much as possible those things which would bring about a complete cessation of the difficulties that the local authorities appear to be under as to the appointed day. I am sure that, if he expedites that position as efficiently as he has expedited the question of the cuts, local authorities will not have to wait very long for a definite statement as to when they can look forward to the benefits that they hope to receive under the Act. On behalf of a great industrial city which has had its sufferings as the result of the operations of the Board, I wish to thank the Government from the bottom of my heart in so far as I repre- sent probably the worst-hit centre of the division. I can assure them that every working man and woman in the division thanks them with me.

9.0 p.m.

The hon. Member only covers up his own confusion by thanking the Government, because he and others of their supporters are equally to blame. He defended the Regulations and he knows that what the Government have done is to protect him and many of his colleagues in trying to cover up the difficulty. I am not going to criticise the Minister for what he has done. I regard it as the honourable thing when a mistake has been made to put the matter right. The Financial Memorandum shows that £5,000,000 is going to the poor people who, if the Bill had not been brought in, would have been short. A mistake was made by taking that amount of money from them in the first instance. We warned the Government what was likely to happen. I pleaded with them not to bring down those parts where they had been treating the unemployed fairly, where they regarded the people they had to deal with as human beings and treated them as such. The Act, with its rigidity and harshness, brought down many of those parts to a level which has caused such an outburst in the country as I have never known. I have never known a Government that had so quickly to back out of its position. I can only associate that with the outburst of indignation in practically every constituency in the land.

This concession has not been given altogether to Labour Members. It has been given because many of the Tory Members have felt the pressure in their constituencies and have had to appeal to the Government to give it. I appreciate what the Government have done. Anything that brings money to the depressed people must be welcomed on this side. But I go further than that. I have been against the Regulations, and I have been against the means test, and I shall never rest content until we are able to abolish the means test. That is the stand that we have to take. The fundamental cause of all these bothers is the means test, and I hope there will be no relaxation of the agitation inside and outside the House until we prevail upon whoever is in power to abolish the means test and give everyone the fair deal to which he is entitled.

9.4 p.m.

I hope, when we come to deal with the Act itself, after the Bill has been passed, the position will be made very much clearer than it was in regard to the Regulations and other measures in respect of the principal Act. I agree that the Minister has taken the only course that was open to him to put matters right. He has attempted to put us back in status quo. The only difficulty is that even at this stage we are not certain whether those who are coming within the purview of this Bill are actually put back to status quo. We had hoped that a definite assurance would be given in this regard. It is hard enough for Members of the House to understand what is happening in regard to these complicated measures, but it is infinitely harder for those outside to realise what is actually to be the result of the Act. Let the Minister realise that what has happened in the past must be a lesson for the future, and that the Act shall be used as a conduit pipe to bring about new measures which will remove the difficulties that have been presented to him time after time. I endeavoured before to point out that the flexibility of the Regulations was not so evident or so certain as the Minister would then have had us believe. Apparently he was satisfied at that time that matters had been put in order, but he now sees, after the experience he has had, that not only were they not put in order, but he actually has had to introduce a Bill which removes everything that has been done with regard to the Regulations from the Statute Book practically and brings us back to the position that existed before the Regulations were actually brought into force. He stated at that time that he had given the Regulations full and ample consideration, and said that he was so satisfied with them that there was no necessity to alter them.

He has seen what has happened and that people cannot live on similar terms or conditions to those imposed by the Regulations. Let him in the time that he now has at his disposal, while we have this stand-still Act, take the opportunity of endeavouring to amend the Unemployment Act. It gives him a chance. He has the opportunity now of going back to conditions as they were, and we hope that the time that will be allowed him, or which he will allow himself in accordance with this Act, will enable him to reconsider the whole matter. I take it that that is the object of the Act. I hope that, while he is considering it, he will realise that these family tests which have hitherto been enforced are entirely wrong. I hope that he will realise the conditions that prevail in the country—and I am glad to see the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health is here—are not such as to allow anybody to be refused allowance for the full rent of the premises he occupies. When he issues regulations from time to time, even under this Act, I hope he will endeavour to point out to public assistance committees that they must give full allowances and that they must be generous in the manner in which they give them.

We want to know what instructions are to be given even to the public assistance committees. We are entitled to know exactly what the Act will mean. We do not want to be relieved from the Parliamentary obligation of watching these things and of doing our duty as Parliamentarians. We do not want the masses outside the House to come to us, when we are definitely unable, because of the terms of Acts, to do our duty towards them. The Act will enable the right hon. Gentleman to prepare matters in such a way that the House will know exactly what is meant by its terms and what instructions have been given to the public assistance committees vis-à-vis the provisions that are contained in it.

Unfortunately we have now come to a stage of the proceedings when, although we have attempted, after many hours, to express our views, we cannot—some of us who have been here hour after hour endeavouring to take part in the other Debates on the Act—now have an opportunity of saying all we want to say, but we can ask the Minister how long he is going to take in order to arrive at a decision with regard to the various points at issue. Is he, during the period which will be allowed him by the Act, going to revise the question of the means test. We can ask him whether, while he has the opportunity under the Act and the time for which he has asked, he will go into the full circumstances of the com- plaints which have been lodged, which apparently is the object of the Act? Will he do this favour to himself and to the country? Will he understand that, if we do not deal with these things in the House, and if we do not use the House as the safety valve for expressing the opinions of the people, we shall find ourselves in a position that will enable dictators—I know that the right hon. Gentleman is as opposed to dictatorship as anybody in this House—to rear their heads here as they are doing in other places. I do not know why some hon. Members above the Gangway on this side of the House should be so happy about the position. I am not so sure that they have not ideas of that description in their own heads. But that is beside the point at the moment.

I am anxious that the Act shall not merely give breathing space for another set of heavy regulations to be foisted upon the House to be accepted holus-bolus. It simply must not be done. If the right hon. Gentleman is going to use the interim period at all, let him use it to bring in a few regulations at a time, and let us examine each regulation as it comes forward and not have a mass of them which neither he nor the rest of the country understand. The country should be told specifically what the Act means and the officers of the public assistance committees should not have placed upon their shoulders, even at this stage, the tremendous onus of having to decide questions within certain limits as to how much they should give in special cases. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will make it clear that the supplemental rates that were received before, not merely may be given, but must be given, so that the ordinary needs of life may be supplied to those who come within the requirements of this type of assistance. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will, by means of regulations and orders, from time to time make the position so clear that people are placed back in as favourable a position as they were before the passing of the original Regulations that there will be no room for complaint as long as the Act remains in force.

9.13 p.m.

As one of three or four Conservatives who a few days ago voted with the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition in favour of the protest in this matter, I should like to say how grateful we are to the Government for having taken a step which relieves their supporters from a very great embarrassment. I think that we all felt this way. I know I did. As the representative of an industrial constituency, I hardly knew how to face my constituents after the reports they were getting, which I knew to be wrong and entirely against the wishes of the Minister and of the Government. The hon. Member for Whitechapel (Mr. Janner) has touched upon a point which I also desire to raise very shortly. We are grateful to the Government for this Measure, because it undoubtedly—and I think that the Opposition should recognise the fact—reverses most of the injustices which were created by the Unemployment Regulations. At the same time, I view with grave anxiety and regret the fact that even now it is more than doubtful whether a good many of my constituents will receive what they were receiving before these Regulations were introduced. I would not vote against the Bill, as it makes matters better, but I should have supported it with more enthusiasm had it cleared up one or two of the very great difficulties which still remain.

I understand that in Manchester a very large number of persons were receiving supplemental benefit, to bring them up to the Poor Law scale of Manchester, which has never yet been criticised. I presume that it would have been criticised had it been wrong. I do not fully understand the matter, because it is rather technical, but I am informed that those persons who were getting more under the Poor Law scales than they got under the old transitional payments will not have that gap made up. If that be so, then in every Parliamentary way that is open to me I shall certainly press, at the earliest possible moment, for that gap to be made up. On that point I would make a suggestion to the Minister. He has gone far and has taken a strong course. It is difficult to make concessions when one realises that one has made a mistake, but it is always the wisest course. Would it be too much for him to go a little bit further and to give us an assurance to-night that until the whole of this matter has been gone into in all its bearings, he will, beyond any doubt, indemnify, if necessary, in future any local authority—

The hon. Member is trespassing beyond the limits of the Question before the House.

I must apologise to the House if I have trespassed against its Rules, and I must plead as excuse my deep feeling on behalf of my constituents. I have made my point plain and I will pursue it no further. I recognise that the Bill is an earnest attempt on the part of the Government to remedy an undoubted wrong, but there are other wrongs which must be remedied, and I think the time has come, not to abolish the means test, because it is essential, but to consider the revision of it in order to avoid its harsher operations. I have come to that conclusion as the representative of an industrial division. It is high time that those of us who are sent here to represent such divisions, because we are human beings, should see that conditions are not imposed which we should not wish to have imposed upon ourselves in similar circumstances. Subject to these observations—which I can assure the Minister are not meant in an unhelpful or disparaging sense, because I appreciate the extent to which he has gone to meet us—I should like to express my gratitude to the Government for what they have done, and to assure them of my support for the Bill and, as I hope, a further Bill which will remove those injustices which still remain.

9.18 p.m.

I do not want to say much about the Bill itself, but rather to raise one or two questions. As I understand the position, it is expected that under the Bill we shall return to something like the status quo. I will put two questions to the right hon. Gentleman. If he cannot answer them now I shall be glad if he will answer them later. In the first place, will the Bill restore the right of the trade unions to pay out unemployment benefit? As he knows, under a previous Act the trade unions were prohibited from paying out transitional benefit. Will this Bill restore to the unions the right to pay out transitional benefit, or is that prohibited? The second question is this. Literature has been issued recently explaining, or endeavouring to explain, the regulations. Obviously, that literature is now of no effect. To a large extent it has been scrapped. How are the applicants to know what are their rights under the new arrangements? Will the right hon. Gentleman see that fresh literature for the information of applicants is issued at the earliest possible date? The literature which we get is to some extent null and void. Certainly, a good deal of it is not being operated. The literature bearing on the Act is of no application and needs to be revised.

It is not true to say that the literature is inoperative. In regard to the scales, for instance, the literature which has been issued is of service. One can find out from it whether the new scale is better than the old transitional payment determinations.

I agree with that statement. In a certain number of cases the literature does have effect but in other cases it has no effect. If a man is going to be cut down it does not tell him what his rights are. We require some literature on the question up-to-date. The present literature is not of general application. Is it the intention of the right hon. Gentleman to issue for the guidance of applicants, through the Exchanges, some form of literature on the subject?

I should like to say that everything that the Government have done up to the present time, from the day they entered office, on unemployment insurance and health questions has been to take something from the workers. This Bill for the first time is a welcome change because it gives something to the workers. It is the first Bill that I have known from this Government that did not take something from the workers. To that extent it marks a change, because public opinion has demanded that the change should take place. I trust that the working people having got even from this Government some concessions will not rest content with this very meagre concession but will demand something much more drastic.

9.23 p.m.

I do not think that much remains to be said, after such a long Debate. The particular points which have been raised in the Debate on the Third Reading are few. The hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) raised two. The first is with regard to the right of trade unions to pay out transitional benefit. My first answer would be that the Bill does not restore that right. With regard to the hon. Member's second question, it is true that the literature, which has been issued by the Board still has its effect, because it is from that literature that one can find out whether the payments that people may be entitled to under the Regulations or under the old system is the greater. I agree, however, that to a large extent the literature may be inoperative and I will certainly represent to the Board the view expressed by the hon. Member, and I think shared by the House, that some literature ought to be issued which will explain the present position to the applicants.

The hon. Member for Whitechapel (Mr. Janner) made a speech in rather general terms. I have listened to many speeches on this subject in the last few weeks and many hard things have been said about me, but I say frankly that I resented his speech more than any to which I have listened, not for what he said about me personally, but I cannot help remembering that when he attacked the means test, and when he said how it had to go, it was not like his action when he was first elected to Parliament, and supported it.

I should like to point out that I put my name down to an. Amendment, which, unfortunately, was not called, limiting the test entirely to a person and his wife.

That was last summer, but when he condemned that means test he must remember a time when he supported it. The only other point, I think, with which I have to deal is to repeat, in response to a request, what I said about supplementary payments. In view of the Debate that took place about the different instructions given by the Board on this matter, I undertook that I would get into touch with the Board and discuss the matter with them again, and represent some of the opinions expressed during the course of the Debate. I repeat that, because the hon. Gentleman who opened the Debate referred to the number of promises I had made, which he was going to see were kept. I challenged him, as I think I am entitled to do, to specify those promises, and he could only specify one. That is why I repeat this. I quite realise that hon. Members in all parts of the House, whatever their feelings as to the steps that led up to the Bill, or to the wisdom of this Bill itself, have realised that this is a matter of urgency if it is to be done at all, and have co-operated in allowing the Bill the speediest passage possible consistent with proper discussion.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read the Third time, and passed.

Consolidated Fund (No. 1) Bill

Considered in Committee and reported, without Amendment; read the Third time, and passed.

Government of India [Money]

Resolution reported,

"That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make further provision for the Government of India, it is expedient to authorise—

Resolution agreed to.

Supply

Considered in Committee.

[Captain BOURNE in the Chair.]

Civil Estimates, Supplementary Estimates, 1934

Class I

Civil Service Commission

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1935, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Civil Service Commission."

9.32 p.m.

I see that this Estimate includes the question of selection boards for the recruitment of staff for the Unemployment Assistance Board. I presume the question of the recruitment of staff is open to discussion under this Estimate, for heading B refers to assistant examiners, and excess due to unexpected expenditure in connection with the recruitment of staff. May I, first, ask why this is unexpected expenditure? Does this merely mean that the earlier Estimate was unable to include this item, or that it was unexpectedly large? I should be obliged if the hon. Gentleman would give some little explanation of the system followed in the selection boards. Some amount of criticism as regards the selection of civil servants by the Board has been made, more particularly of civil servants in other Departments being able to get positions under the Board. There have been complaints—justifiable or not I do not know—as to the opportunities they had compared with outside people, the understanding being, as appreciated, that when new Departments of a civil service type are set up, the civil servants of other Departments have preferential rights.

I am not quite sure that that particular question arises on this Estimate. As far as the point about assistant examiners is concerned, I rather think that raises a question of the policy of the commission as a whole.

In that case I should just like to know where these assistant examiners were examined? Were they primarily people who already came from the Civil Service? If they were mainly Civil servants for this job, the charge for the examiners might be less, as there would be less determination. I should be obliged if the hon. Gentleman could also tell us who it was examined; what examination they were subjected to; where the examination took place; and how the selections were made after the examinations.

9.35 p.m.

I can only give such information as I have at my disposal to the hon. and learned Member. He has not warned me that he proposed to raise any question with regard to the procedure of the examiners. Twelve separate boards were set up in different parts of the country and 2,500 people appeared before them. I imagine that all applicants who had any qualifications for these posts were interviewed and examined by the examiners as to their qualifications for these positions. Members of the Civil Service were allowed to apply, and a great many did, but I cannot say the exact percentage that were appointed. As far as I am aware it was an oral examination. The expenditure on travelling, etc., did slightly exceed the amount anticipated by £572, which I understand will be recoverable from the assistance board.

Question put, and agreed to.

Class III

Land Registry

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1935, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office Of Land Registry."

9.37 p.m.

I notice that part of this Vote is required in respect of the payments for overtime of the staff of the Land Registry, and it would be useful to inquire why this overtime is worked when it would seem to be good policy for the Department to employ a sufficient staff to enable them to work without the necessity of having to do overtime.

9.38 p.m.

My reply is that which would apply to every question in regard to overtime. It is impossible to say beforehand how much work there will be in any given year; and there has been a large increase this year. The hon. Member will realise that when there is a sudden rush of work it is impossible to deal with it by appointing a new staff of untrained and untried people, and that the only way to deal with it expeditiously is for the staff to work a little overtime. If the Department have any grounds for believing that the increase of work is of a permanent character their policy would be to increase the staff.

Question put, and agreed to.

Class IV

Scientific Investigation, Etc

Resolved,

"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £1,900, be granted His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1935, for sundry Grants-in-Aid of Scientific Investigation, etc., and other Grants."

Class VII

Stationery and Printing

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £32,000, be granted to His Majesty to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1935, for Stationery, Printing, Paper, Binding and Printed Books for the Public Service; for the Salaries and Expenses of the Stationery Office; and for sundry Miscellaneous Services, including Reports of Parliamentary Debates."

9.41 p.m.

I should like to ask one or two questions on this Vote. In regard to the additional provision required for Departmental forms and circulars, instructions, books and pamphlets—I suppose that it arises from the obscurity of the legislation of the National Government? In that case I appreciate the reason for the increase. It requires a great deal of elucidation in circulars, instructions, books and pamphlets. In regard to the printing, I should like to ask why so much is done by contract and so little by the Stationery Office printing works. The item for contract is £25,000 and for the Stationery Office only £5,000. Is that due to the inability of the Stationery Office to do the printing, because of lack of machinery, or is it done by choice, and put out to contract in spite of the fact that there is plenty of machinery available. I see that there is saving on the Vote for machinery of £2,000; therefore, I presume that the amount put out to contract cannot be because of any lack of machinery or facilities in the Stationery Office. As regards the miscellaneous office supplies, calculating and other machinery, can the hon. Member tell us whether it is this calculating machinery that has led the Government into their recent trouble?

9.43 p.m.

The hon. and learned Member is quite wrong in thinking that it is the obscurity of the legislation of the Government which has necessitated these pamphlets and instructions. The additional amount of stationery is due entirely to the determination of the Government that its policy shall be clearly understood even by hon. Members opposite. The reason why so many contracts are put out is very much the same as that which I gave for working overtime. When there is additional work in the Stationery Office which the machinery is incapable of producing, we prefer to put it out to contract. The only alternative is to work overtime. When the machinery is fully engaged we put the extra work out to contract. Additional work has fallen on the Stationery Office during the year. They have taken on the work of the national mark publicity campaign as the Empire Marketing Board has ceased to exist, and it has also done a great deal of the publicity work in connection with the Post Office and other work which used to be done by the Inland Revenue in the way of unemployment insurance stamps and licences, dog licences, and so on.

How comes it, if the Stationery Office is short of machinery, that there is a saving on capital expenditure of £2,000?

The reason is that there has not been time yet to provide the space for the new machinery and to purchase machinery of the exact type it is intended to purchase.

If there is full work for the machinery of the Stationery Office it does not require an enormous amount of imagination to supply the reason why work has been done by contract.

Does this not show that it is impossible for the present Opposition to understand the high standard of efficiency to which the Government have attained; and that they are quite incapable of keeping them up to it?

Question put, and agreed to.

Class II

India Services

Resolved,

"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £958, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1935, for a Contribution towards the Cost of the Department of His Majesty's Secretary of State for India in Council, including a Grant in Aid, and a Grant in Aid of the Defence of India."

Resolutions to be reported To-morrow; Committee to sit again To-morrow.

The remaining Orders were, read, and postponed.

Adjournment

Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[ Sir V. Warrender. ]

Adjourned accordingly at Twelve Minutes before Ten o'Clock.