asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office (1) how many officers of the rank of colonel and of each rank of general officer have, during the past 12 months, been found not to be fit in all respects for active service; and how many of those so found unfit are still on full pay;

(2) whether all colonels and general officers have been medically examined during the past 12 months; and, if so, whether any reductions in the ages for compulsory retirement of colonels and the various ranks of general officers are contemplated as a result of these medical examinations?

All general officers and colonels who are employed on full pay have been medically examined during the last 12 months. Four officers of these ranks were found by medical boards to be unfit, and only one of them remains on full-pay. Officers found to be temporarily unfit are removed to the half-pay list when they have exhausted their sick leave or are pronounced permanently unfit for general service. No reductions in the ages for compulsory retirement of officers of these ranks are contemplated.

Why is this elderly unfit officer allowed to remain on full pay while many young officers of the cavalry and infantry who are perfectly fit have been got rid of under the "axe"?

Some of these officers are not permanently unfit, and it is rather hard to remove a man because he happens to be temporarily indisposed.

May I take it that the military members of the Army Council, general officers, commanders-in-chief of commands, are included in this reply?

I have answered the question put down by my hon. and gallant Friend, and, if he desires to put down another question, I will gladly answer that also.

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he can state on what grounds Private Walker, of the 78th Field Brigade of the Territorial Army, has been court-martialled and discharged from the Territorial Army for having taken part in a Scottish unemployed hunger march?

The hon. Member is under a misapprehension. Gunner Walker was not tried by court-martial, nor was he discharged from the Territorial Army for taking part in a Scottish unemployed hunger march.

I am afraid I cannot accept that reply. May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he is aware that the man in question was brought before the commander-in-chief of the regiment and other officers of the regiment, believed he was being court-martialled, and was discharged for the reason stated in the question and nothing else?

No, Sir, it is not the fact, as stated in the question, that this man ever appeared before a courtmartial. He was actually discharged under paragraph 199 (6a) as his services were no longer required.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if this man was discharged from the Territorial Force; if he was interviewed by his commanding officer and other officers of the regiment and was cross-questioned by them as to his participation in a Scottish hunger march; was asked by them if he would give up his association with unemployed workers, and, on refusing, was then told that he would be dismissed from the regiment?

The question the hon. Member asked was whether the man was court-martialled and discharged from the Territorial Army for having taken part in an unemployed hunger march, and I say that is not correct. This man was quite correctly discharged for other reasons.

What were the reasons?

I am not prepared to disclose the reasons. It is not in the public interest that they should be disclosed.

May I ask the right hon. Member whether the reasons for this man's dismissal from the Army were political reasons?

No, Sir, we do not consider politics in the Army at all. This man was discharged for reasons which I am not prepared to disclose, because it would not be in the public interest to do so.

I cannot leave it at that.

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office for what reason the Army Council recently took a census of horses in this country; whether the reduction which was shown in the numbers still leaves a sufficient reserve of animals for use in the event of any emergency; and, if not, whether he will consider restoring the horse-breeding grants at least to the pre-1931 levels so as to give due encouragement to horse-breeding?

A census of horses is taken periodically in order to watch the future provision of horses for the Army. The reduction shown in the numbers since the census of 1924 still leaves a sufficient number for mobilisation. There is not at present any proposal to increase the grants now made, but the situation is kept under review.

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office the number of different countries with which we exchange officers as an act of international courtesy; and the numbers in each case of such exchange of officers?

There are no specific arrangements for exchange. Officers are attached to the armies of other countries according to applications received from time to time. The numbers of foreign officers at present attached to the British Army are: from China 4, Egypt 3, Germany 3, Iraq 4, Japan 1, Sweden 1. A total of 16. The number of British officers at present attached or about to be attached to foreign armies is 10; namely, 3 to France, 3 to Germany, 3 to Italy and 1 to Japan.

asked the President of the Board of Trade the current average rate of gross profit, stated as a percentage of turnover, on goods sold at retail prices in this country?

No, Sir.

Does this not indicate that there is no authority for the not infrequent statement, made by Ministers and others, that the rate is excessive?

asked the President of the Board of Trade the current average rate of gross profit, stated as a percentage of turnover, on milk sold at retail prices in this country?

I regret that the desired information is not available.

Will my hon. Friend draw the attention of the Ministry of Agriculture to that statement?

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware of the injury being done to the North Staffordshire pottery industry by the practical cessation of orders from Holland owing to the quota restrictions; and whether he will take immediate steps to remove the ban now existing on British imports into that country, and also to facilitate the granting of licences for the importation of British pottery into Holland?

I understand that the quota allotted to the United Kingdom for fine earthenware, which is at the rate of 681.4 metric tons a year, was not fully used last year, and that this has been attributed by the industry to the method of allocation of licences in the Netherlands. The matter is under discussion with the industry, with a view to such representations to the Netherlands Government as may prove necessary. The possibility of securing increased quotas in the Netherlands for United Kingdom goods generally is also receiving active consideration.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the fact that coke is mostly sold by weight only, he will consider prescribing a maximum moisture content for coke offered for sale?

My right hon. Friend has no power to enforce the kind of provision suggested by my hon. and gallant Friend.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has considered the resolution sent to him by the Hull and District Seed Crushers' Association on 7th May on the subject of the new duty on soya beans; and whether he has any statement to make on the subject?

Yes, Sir. My right hon. Friend has already reminded the Association that it is open to the industry to make application to the Import Duties Advisory Committee for additional duties on soya products and for schemes of drawback of duty on the export of such products.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the committee which has been appointed to consider the key industry duties will take into account the interests of consumers?

Yes, Sir. An announcement has been made in the Press that any representations which consumers of the articles or substances concerned desire to make should be addressed to the Committee.

Is it not the case that the bulk of this class of goods now made in this country have been sold more cheaply to the public than was the case when they were imported in prewar days from abroad?

I think that is generally true.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that there are firms in Lancashire advertising in the Indian and Japanese Textile and Engineering Diary, 1935, the sale of second-hand Lancashire textile machinery; whether he can give any information as to the value of this export trade; whether he has taken into consideration the recommendation set forth in the Colwyn Committee Report to put a stop to this traffic; and, if so, with what results?

My attention had not previously been drawn to these particular advertisements and I am afraid that there are no separate statistics of the exports of second-hand textile machinery. The recommendation of the Colwyn Committee referred solely to the disposal of surplus plant acquired for the purposes of the scheme recommended by the Committee which is now under consideration.

Will the hon. Gentleman be good enough to look at the advertisements sent out to the East by Lancashire firms offering for sale secondhand textile machinery from Lancashire, if I let him see the publication?

I shall be very glad to consider any material, of course.

asked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department the approximate figures of the value of orders placed in this country by the Russian Government between 1st April, 1934, and April, 1935?

There are no United Kingdom official statistics regarding the value of orders placed in this country. According to an unofficial source, the value of orders placed by the Soviet Union in this country during the period specified amounted to £10,119,937. These orders were, of course, not confined to goods of United Kingdom origin or manufacture.

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury the amount of revenue derived in 1934 from the import duties payable on foreign eggs in shell, liquid eggs, and dried eggs, respectively?

The amounts of revenue derived in the calendar year 1934 from the import duties on eggs in shell, liquid eggs (including frozen eggs, as to which separate information is not available) and dried eggs including albumen, were £828,200, £167,100 and £25,900 respectively.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that aeroplane engines are being built in Coventry for Germany; and whether he will stop their being exported to that country?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative, and the second part does not therefore arise.

Am I to understand from that reply that no aeroplane engines are being built in Coventury that are going to Germany?

Yes. I think my answer is quite clear on that point.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that there is no nickel, copper, or tin in Germany and that munitions cannot be manufactured without them; and, as 90 per cent. of the world supply of nickel is in Canada and the other 10 per cent. belongs to France, what measures are being, or will be, adopted to prevent these metals being exported to Germany from either Canada or France?

As regards the first part of the question, I understand that, while nickel and tin are not indigenous to Germany, there are nevertheless deposits of copper in that country. As regards the second part of the question, the figures given by the hon. Member for the world production of nickel are, I am informed, only approximately correct. There are appreciable deposits of this metal also in Greece, India, Norway and the United States of America. The adoption of measures designed to control the export of the metals mentioned from either Canada or France is a matter for the French Government and for His Majesty's Government in Canada. I am not aware that any such measures have been adopted by either of these two Governments.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that last March the French Government prohibited the export of certain materials designed for making munitions?

I have no information on that point.

Arising out of the original reply, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he would not use his influence with the present Cabinet in order that they may use their influence with those who have control of both nickel and tin, because, if we were to use our influence with Canada and others within the British Empire, it would not be possible to manufacture armaments of any description in Germany?

That goes far beyond the scope of this question.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether representations have been received from the German Government with regard to the demilitarised zone of the Rhineland; and whether it has been made clear that the obligation to render military assistance under the treaties of Locarno applies either to France or to Germany, according to who is the aggressor?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. As regards the second part, I would refer the hon. Member to Article 4 of the Treaty of Locarno.

It is a fact, is it not, that the Treaty applies both ways?

Article 4 makes it quite clear that assistance is to be given equally either to Belgium, France or Germany in the event of the casus foederis arising.

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is aware that no progress can be made with land drainage in the River Blyth internal district until a proper outfall of the River Blyth is secured; that a proposal has been made by the East Suffolk Catchment Board, supported by the promise of a substantial financial contribution from the Corporation of Southwold; whether the necessary Treasury support has been obtained; and when the work will be put in hand?

I am aware of the position as regards the River Blyth and I have received a formal application from the catchment board concerned for a grant under Section 55 of the Land Drainage Act, 1930, in respect of a scheme of remedial works for the outfall of the river, estimated to cost £29,000. As soon as the board submit details of the works proposed, these will be examined and, if approved, the board will be informed as to the amount of the grant payable.

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is now in a position to proceed with an agreed scheme for the constitution of a development board to co-ordinate the interests of pig producers and bacon curers and facilitate the development of the industry on terms that will ensure remunerative returns to producers?

The Pigs and Bacon Marketing Boards have informed my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland and myself that they do not propose to proceed further with the draft scheme now before us for the establishment of a development board for the bacon industry, but that it is their intention to submit immediately a revised scheme for our consideration.

Why is the scheme being abandoned?

I understand that as the result of consideration and objection a number of amendments have been made, and that it is believed to be more convenient to submit a revised scheme incorporating the amendments. That is the reason why the present scheme is being withdrawn.

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether in view of the increased production of milk this summer and the greater output of condensed milk and dried milk in this country, the Government is taking further steps to check by quantitative restriction or tariffs the importations of processed milk products?

The Governments of the foreign countries mainly concerned in the United Kingdom market with condensed milk, milk powder and cream, have been asked to arrange for certain additional reductions in supplies as from 1st April last, the reductions in each case being based on imports during the corresponding months of the year previous to the in- troduction of voluntary import regulation, namely, June, 1932, to May, 1933. I am circulating details of these reductions in the OFFICIAL REPORT. Arrangements are also being made to secure reductions in imports of condensed whole milk, condensed skimmed milk and cream from the Irish Free State. As my hon. Friend will be aware, imports of processed milks from foreign countries are already subject to customs duties. It is understood that the interests concerned have under consideration an application to the Import Duties Advisory Committee for additional duties on condensed skimmed milk, condensed whole milk and milk powder (the duty on cream has been conventionalised under the Anglo-Danish Trade Agreement which operates until June, 1936). If such an application is made, future policy will be considered in the light of any recommendations received from the Import Duties Advisory Committee.

Is it not a fact that English manufacturers are now capable of supplying the British market?

There has no doubt been a considerable increase in the production of these commodities from British milk, and it is on account of that that these reductions have been asked for.

Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us what the farmers or the Government are doing, apart from providing liquid milk for poor children, to help to extend the sales of liquid milk, because in that direction lies the only possible hope for the dairy farmers of this country?

A very extensive scheme of bonus for clean milk has been introduced by the Milk Board in order to secure a guaranteed quality of milk upon the foundation of which any expansion of the market will rest.

Have the reductions actually been made?

Oh, yes, Sir.

Is the question of the regulation of milk products being discussed with the Dominion representatives who are now here?

No, Sir, we have not so far undertaken those discussions.

Would not one of the most certain ways of discouraging what are really milk substitutes be to bring down the retail price of fresh liquid milk in this country as supplied to the public?

It is very desirable to bring down the retail price, but as long as manufacturing milk is at its present very low level it automatically forces up the price of liquid milk.

Perhaps the Committee will allow me to say a few words on what was said in the House at the end of Question Time. Hon. Members will agree that the House has, if I may respectfully use the phrase, increased its prestige considerably by the way in which this Bill has been dealt with in Committee, and I venture to hope, therefore, that we shall complete the Bill in the way that we have begun and that we shall not fail to end the Committee stage to-morrow night. I do not think that there is any reason why we should not do so, and that ought to mean that we at least complete the existing Schedule to the Bill to-night and leave not less than a whole day tomorrow for the new Franchise Schedules. I realise that that may mean a certain amount of self-denial on the part of some Members of the Committee in refraining from making remarks and observations which are not absolutely essential, interesting as they may be both to themselves and to other Members of the Committee, but I feel sure that if we behave in the best way that we have sometimes behaved during the preceding stages of the Committee on the Bill we ought to be able to complete the Committee stage to-morrow.

So far as my friends and I are concerned, we are anxious to do everything we possibly can to carry out the spirit of the agreement, and I think that we can say that until the Secretary of State thought it necessary to put down so many new Clauses we were well up to time, and we are not very far behind now. The difficulty in a matter of this kind is that the Schedule which we are now discussing is a very long one and as the debate continues it may be that some very big points may arise. I can only give the assurance that so far as my friends and I are concerned we will do everything we can to keep to the time-table, and we will only deal with those points which we regard as absolutely essential.

I beg to move, in page 295, line 3, after "transfer," to insert "alienation."

It has been found that the proposals in regard to the transfer of agricultural land are defective in that they do not cover alienation. Two Provinces at least have legislation imposing restrictions on agricultural land, and we therefore wish to add the word "alienation" in order to make the matter clear.

I beg to move, in page 295, line 13, leave out "money-lending and money-lenders."

We desire to transfer this subject to the Concurrent List in Part II. During the last few days we have endeavoured to persuade the Government to transfer certain vital matters affecting the religious and social fabric of India to the Federal List. This important subject appears in the provincial List, and we want it put into the Concurrent List. Where you have customs and habits which are deeply rooted in the religious life of India, we think that they ought not to be dealt with piecemeal by various Provincial Governments, but should be handled after great deliberation and care with the consent of the Central authorities. Of these habits and practices money-lending is perhaps one of the most serious and most difficult problems to solve in all the complexities which confront us in India. It is a far-reaching matter and affects great multitudes of the Indian people. It will be agreed that the money-lender in India is a scourge and blot on Indian life. Vast numbers of the poorest of the poor may be said to be born in debt and to die in debt. The causes are partly social, arising incidentally out of the religious customs, and partly the agricultural depression, more especially so during the last few years when there has been a drop in the price of primary products in India as well as throughout the world.

In the social and religious customs among the Hindus what are large sums for these poor people are paid on numerous occasions by the average Hindu to the Brahmin priest. When a child is born ceremonies take place and payments have to be made. Sixteen weeks after the birth there is the purification ceremony, when large payments again are made. On the occasion of the weaning of the child and the first visit of the barber, when the child first walks and on the completion of its first year, on the completion of its seventh year, upon marriage, on the first signs of puberty; on all these occasions the priest must be paid for the good of the souls of the parents and the offspring. It is very complicated and only shows how great some of these problems are. When death occurs the priest again comes into the picture, and money has also to be paid on cremation and in some cases every month afterwards. If the family is poor, these constant payments are a great strain on the purse, and, if they are not paid, it is feared that disaster will fall on the child and the family. In these circumstances, millions of people are driven to the money-lenders to get what are regarded as essential sums. There is also the problem of rural indebtedness, and it is estimated that the indebtedness now amounts to something like £800,000,000 which is a colossal sum. It arises from the fact that the poor peasants have been driven to find someone to finance them. They have had to go to the money-lender. Some Provinces have endeavoured to cope with this matter by providing for the registration of money-lenders, prescribing standard forms of accounts and setting a limit to usurious interest.

Recent legislation to this effect in the Punjab has created very intense feelings between the Hindus generally, who are the lenders in nearly every case, and the Moslem peasantry who are the principal borrowers. Money-lenders, in some respects, are the backbone of Hindu life because they are also in many cases bankers and traders. Legislation on somewhat similar lines to that of the Punjab has been under consideration for other Provinces, notably Bengal, where owing to the ignorance and apathy of the peasants the problem is more acute than anywhere else in India. Money-lenders may be a necessary evil in present conditions, especially when there are uncertain harvests and a depression in prices. The money-lender finances the peasant, that is true, but at a calamitous rate of interest, and the result is that peasants who are in the toils of money-lenders frequently find that they can never escape from their difficulties and very often it is not easy for them to get advice because the subordinate judiciary and clerical staff are also of the money-lending class. The consequence is that the peasant is frequently driven to sell or mortgage his little holding of land in liquidation of his debts, and this often drives him to what is described as the wild practice of revenge. The Committee may be interested to know that last year, according to the official records, there were 13 cases in which money-lenders were murdered in the Punjab alone by their peasant debtors.

Under this Bill the Hindu capitalist class, which is very largely associated with money-lending, will be in power in most of the Provinces. I want particularly to ask the Committee this question: How can you expect these men in control of the Provincial Legislatures to initiate, still less to press, legislation which will free the peasants from their debts? It seems to me that if you are going to rely on such legislation being produced in the Provinces, at any rate in the majority of the Provinces, which will be under Hindu control, it is never going to be produced. Also with the control of law and order taken out of British hands, it may well happen that you will get a movement started in the Provinces of India and that the peasant will rise with a programme for wiping out debts and seizing land, as occurred in the United Provinces in 1921–22. That might prove a very favourable opportunity for a Communist uprising, and I think it will be generally admitted that it would intensify to a very great extent the whole question of communal differences between the different religions. So we find that if in one Province there is failure to deal adequately with this question of agrarian trouble, due to the fact that the peasant is no longer able to meet his debts, we might have this trouble spreading from Province to Province, and it might flare up until it became an all-India problem.

To sum up, if you leave this great and appalling problem solely in the hands of the Provinces, whose Legislatures are controlled by money-lenders and the money-lending class, there is little if any hope of a reform in this very grave and complex subject, which is so harmful to the lives of many millions of people in India. I believe that in the long run this problem could have been best solved by the British Government detaching it from this communal issue. But that we are not contemplating. The British Government are optimistic. There is to be this new Federal Government established. On the assumption that the Federal Government will not be dominated by a single religion or a single caste or by affiliated castes, but will in time be able to take a broad view of the interests of India as a whole, there is some hope that in such a central Government you might be able to bring in some banking system by which the peasants could find the money to carry them over these difficult times, so that they would not be forced for all time under the bondage of the money-lender. We do not understand these problems in this country to the same extent as those in India do. There are all over India vast multitudes of small cultivators who never see any hope of advancing because practically the whole of their savings have to go in interest to money-lenders. I suggest that we should not trust to luck, that we should not trust that this matter will be dealt with in the various Provinces, but that we should transfer this great and vital subject to the concurrent list.

I am very glad to associate myself with the heavy indictment of the capitalist class made by the hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft). I have seldom heard in a short speech a better picture of the condition of the proletariat. I am sure that if the hon. and gallant Member's speech was translated into Russian it would be received with joy in that country, and would be added to the considerable literature on the subject. But I cannot agree with the hon. and gallant Member on the practical suggestion that he has made. He is afraid, and I am also afraid, that the new Councils may be dominated by the vested interests of the capitalists, sometimes called moneylenders. There is a variety of capitalists, and everything depends on their relative rapacity. Vested interests will be far stronger at the Centre, but there is a hope that in some of the Provinces the cultivators of the soil may get power. Indeed I believe that in the Punjab there was a very drastic Money-Lenders' Bill introduced. But when you come to the Centre, with all the powers of wealth there, I do not see very much chance of getting anything drastic done. There is a much better chance in the agrarian Provinces, where you may get a majority representing the actual land workers. I do not think, therefore, that the hon. and gallant Member's proposition is a very useful one. It would be much better to leave this matter to the Provinces. Otherwise the Provinces, instead of tackling their real diculties, may well say "We will leave this matter to the Centre for the Centre to act, and we will not act ourselves."

I would ask the Government whether it is not possible for them to give some assurance that if they retain this provision in the Bill they will also provide for agricultural banks or facilities of that sort. I agree with the hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft) that this money-lending is a scourge in India. But it is also a necessary evil. What are the Government going to do if they do not provide some means of finance for the peasants? I agree with the hon. Member for Limehouse (Mr. Attlee) that we are more likely to get some reform from the Provinces than from the Centre. The Centre is more likely to be dominated by capitalist interests than are the Provinces. If the Government would give an assurance that they would look favourably on any proposal which would provide some alternative to the rather bullying attitude which the money-lender adopts to the helpless peasantry, that might meet the views of the hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth. He recognises that some finance is necessary for these people. While we agree with him as to the necessity of getting rid of the present evil, we must provide an alternative means of financing these peasants. I appeal to the Government to provide these alternative methods.

In reply to the remarks of the hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. D. Mason), this matter of money-lending and money-lenders has, of course, been in the forefront of the minds of various Governments in India for many years past. The hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft) is quite right in his description of the evils and the scourge of money-lending. In many of these Debates on the Legislative Lists we find ourselves in agreement with the main case put to us. We agree that it is necessary for steps to be taken to eradicate money-lending, and the only question at issue is whether it is wise to insert this item in the Provincial list or in the Concurrent List. All that the hon. and gallant Member said about the danger of high rates of interest and the social habits of the Hindus, and their getting themselves into debt, largely through customs relating to their social and family life, is perfectly correct.

The question, however, is whether we can deal with this on a provincial or on a central basis. Hitherto, money-lending and money-lenders have been an item under provincial control, and it is our view that it would be wiser to leave the power to the Provinces, for the reason that if you leave the Provinces with their responsible Governments to deal with this matter, you are much more likely to get it properly dealt with than if you place it in the hands of the Centre. The first reason is because of the peculiarities of each particular Province. The most striking piece of legislation in modern India against money-lending was recently passed by the Punjab Legislative Council, very largely due to the vote of the agriculturists in that Council. The result of this piece of legislation has been to enforce the registration of moneylenders, and to enforce a particular method of keeping accounts.

I have taken the trouble to investigate this matter, and I have heard from Sir Miles Irving, who has recently returned from the Punjab, and I have read in a recent paper he has written, that the reason for this legislation is the new power which the agriculturists feel has come to them. Under our proposal of extended franchise, the object of which is to give votes to the agricultural classes, their votes will be very much increased, and I am convinced that the phenomenon we have seen in the Punjab Legislative Council will be copied all over India by the agricultural classes when they realise their power under the new Constitution. This, I think, is one of the most important arguments in support of our reforms. It is essentially the small cultivator who should be given more power, and it is by extending the franchise to the small cultivator, and by encouraging the agriculturist, as has been the case in the Punjab, that the money-lender can be most effectively dealt with.

Besides this advantage of Provincial legislation, there is, as I have said, the advantage of the different customs and the different conditions in the different Provinces. One of the most important methods of checking the money-lender has been what is known as the Dumdupat rule, under which, when the interest reaches the same sum as the principal, no further interest can accrue to the money-lender. That may seem to us a very meagre protection, but the Committee must remember that the rates of interest in India are much higher than we have ever considered possible here. We may grumble at 5 per cent., but we do not consider 50, 100 or even 200 per cent. at all, and that is very often the lot of the Indian peasant when in the hands of the Indian money-lender. This rule has been brought in in the Province of Bombay, where it follows the customary law of the Province. I am assured by expert opinion, and by those who have studied this question in India, that it will be impossible to apply any one uniform law for the whole of India in order to check money-lending, and curb the rapacious habits of money-lenders. If we did that, it would be the quickest way of checking provincial effort to deal with this matter, and provincial effort, thanks to the new power of the agriculturists, would seem to be the very best way to deal with it.

The hon. and gallant Member appears to have conceived in the latter part of our discussions a great liking for our new central government. In the earlier part of the discussions he spent much time in attacking the new Central Government we are about to set up. Now it is his earnest wish to transfer as many items as possible to the control of the Centre. In this particular case, I think the hon. Member opposite is quite right in saying that the money-lender would receive shorter shrift in the Provincial Legislature than in the Central. Therefore, I strongly advise my hon. and gallant Friend in this case to leave the matter to provincial control and provincial legislation.

The hon. Member for East Edinburgh asked me how this matter would be dealt with in the future. He is aware that the governments have already powers to deal with money-lending. The rural co-operatives which have been set up all over India have done great work in tackling the problem of rural indebtedness. This would be the best way of dealing with rural debt. It is already covered by Item 32 in the Provincial List, and I hope their beneficial activities, which have always had the encouragement of the Government, will be continued in the future.

In conclusion, I would say that I think we are right in leaving this matter to provincial control, because while the Centre has passed only one rather mild measure to deal with this subject, the Provinces have passed much more drastic legislation. That is the desire of the hon. and gallant Member, and while not criticising his excellent arguments and the care with which he has prepared his case, I would put to him, after close investigation of this subject and expert advice, that with the new power the agriculturist is learning to use in the Provinces, we had much better leave this matter to Provincial rather than Central control.

May I supplement the reply which my hon. Friend has given to the hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. D. Mason) with regard to his question as to whether the Government could not do something by promoting agricultural banks to free these unfortunate peasants from the money-lenders? I do not think that in his reply the Under-Secretary made clear that under this Bill the Governor will have no power to deal with agricultural banks or to take any initiative to promote the welfare of the peasants except by safeguarding peace and tranquillity. And it is the same with the Governor-General.

I did not suggest that the British Government could do it, but I only asked the Government to—

I think we must not develop that subject.

I am glad that I misunderstood the hon. Member's question. I thought he was suggesting that the Government should initiate or encourage some movement of the kind. When this Bill becomes law we shall not know what is happening in India except with regard to the matters covered by the special responsibilities of the Governor-General and the Governors. Although I would infinitely rather see the Governor-General given some special responsibility, which would enable him to interest himself in this matter of the welfare of the people, as he can do in the certain circumstances I have mentioned, I think it is advisable to put this subject in the Concurrent List, because although one Province, where the hand of the money-lender is particularly resented by the majority of the people, namely, the Moslems, has passed legislation of the kind described, it remains exceedingly doubtful whether the Provinces where the Hindus predominate are likely to do anything of the kind. We know that the money-lenders belong to the Hindu moneylending class, and in the Provinces in which Hindus are likely to have a great deal of political power, it may be extremely difficult for the Moslems, who have no money-lenders, to get any protective legislation passed.

I should like to add to what my hon. and gallant Friend said as to the terrible way in which, early in life, people in India get driven into the hands of the money-lender. Hindu religion prescribes very expensive feasts at marriages and funerals. I was given an instance of that a few weeks ago in the case of a very high-caste Brahmin whose acquaintance I had the pleasure of making in regard to this Bill. He died, and his son wrote to me telling me of the heavy obligations in which he was landed, because the poor had to be fed for no less than 14 days! mention that as an indication of how inevitably a large proportion of people in India are forced into the hands of money-lenders who charge these terrible rates of interest. But I must say to the hon. Member for Limehouse (Mr. Attlee), that because of the terrific rates of interest to which he referred, it does seem beside the mark to confuse this money-lending in India with the ordinary tirade he and his colleagues make against capitalists in this country. Were capitalists here to charge anything like 30 or 40 per cent., to say nothing of 200 per cent., we should all join hands with the hon. Member in his diatribes.

To return to the question as to what might be done if this matter were put in the Concurrent List, and the Federal Government given some powers in the matter. I should like to recall to memory the report of the Linlithgow Commission on Agriculture, and the very interesting part of the report which spoke of an Act passed a few years ago, the purpose of which was, in every Province, to give protection to the debtor against the money-lender, by giving power to the debtor to bring the case into court, and giving the court power to cut down the rate of interest.

I am afraid we must not discuss now what legislation may be carried out by the Indian Legislature.

I have no intention of discussing what legislation might in future be brought in by the Legislature. I am giving this as an illustration of what the Central Government are already able to do in this matter, and I hope, Sir Dennis, you will not think it out of order if I tell the Committee that the Linlithgow Commission, in reporting on this legislation, said that the Act had remained a dead letter in every Province.

I am afraid I do regard that as out of order. It is quite irrelevant to the Amendment before the Committee.

Perhaps you may not think it out of order if I quote the Linlithgow Commission's opinion that if the Act had been put into operation, it would have been of great benefit to the debtors of India. They recommended the Government of India to institute inquiries in every Province as to why the Act had not been operated, and to ask for an annual report from every Provincial Government as to how far the Act had been put into effect. I submit that that is an indication of what a very influential and very well-informed committee thought possible that a Central Government could do in ibis very important matter. Any action of that kind would be quite impossible to the Federal Government, and although it is said that in the Punjab Legislature, where agriculturists are chiefly Moslems, and resent very much the Hindu moneylender, a beneficial Act has been passed, it makes it extremely doubtful whether anything of the kind will be carried through in the Provinces, where the Hindus, who are the majority, will have the controlling hand. I would also remind the Committee that this legislation has been carried through in a Legislature where there is a considerable nominated element—an element nominated by the Governor, and pledged more or less to help the Governor, and everyone holding European standards such legislation as very necessary. But in future, in every Province, there will be an entirely communal majority, there will be no one nominated by the Governor and therefore, it remains an extremely open question as to whether legislation of this kind will be carried through in the future.

I cannot but regard this as one of several instances in which the welfare of the peasant in India is liable to be gravely prejudiced by the fact that provincial autonomy is going to be so exclusive. That exclusive autonomy is because of the fears many Moslems have of a Federation which must be largely ruled by Hindus. They wish that provincial autonomy should be exclusive as possible because they hope in that way to have power in three Provinces and possibly in a fourth. They wish that the Provincial Governments should be as little interfered with as possible and I think it is worth the Committee's while to note that this is one of several instances in which that exclusiveness of provincial autonomy is going to mean sacrificing the welfare of the people for purely political considerations.