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Commons Chamber

Volume 308: debated on Monday 10 February 1936

House of Commons

Monday, February 10, 1936

Private Business

Perth Corporation Order Confirmation Bill [ Lords ] (by Order).

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

Consideration deferred till Monday next.

Oral Answers to Questions

India

Trade Unions

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he will give information showing the number of trade unions in India that are registered under the Indian Trade Union Act?

The number of trade unions (including federations) borne on the Registers on 30th September, 1935, was 244.

Has the Minister any figures to show the total number of members of these unions?

It is rather difficult to find out the numbers of members, but I will do my best, if the hon. Member will put down a question.

Proscribed Book

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India, for what reason the sale of a book of photographs of life in India, by Kathrine Mayo, entitled the "Face of Mother India," has been prohibited in India?

The book was proscribed on the grounds that it would give deep offence to Hindus and outrage their religious feelings and would also increase communal tension. My Noble Friend entirely shares the view taken of the book by the authorities in India and cannot but regret that currency should be given to opinions which would have this unfortunate result.

Surely a book which is published in the most artistic manner, and at a price of 15s., is not to be considered liable to increase communal tension in India?

My hon. and gallant Friend must realise that it is the opinion of the authorities in India, which is shared by my Noble Friend.

Pandit Jawahar Lal Nehru

asked the Undersecretary of State for India whether the allegations made against Pandit Jawahar Lal Nehru have now been deleted from those copies of the Bengal administration report which were still under the control of the Government on 7th January, 1936?

I have no doubt that the Government of Bengal have carried out their undertaking to delete the passage from all copies under their control.

asked the Undersecretary of State for India whether, seeing that a part of the sentence of imprisonment imposed on Pandit Jawahar Lal Nehru is still to run, he will say when this gentleman will return to India to complete his sentence?

The sentence on Pandit Jawahar Lal Nehru expires on the 15th of this month. His sentence was suspended in September last year owing to the illness of his wife who was in Germany, and he was informed then that there was no intention of his imprisonment being extended beyond the normal date of the expiry of the sentence.

If the sentence expires only on the 15th of this month, and he was given permission to go to Germany to see his wife, why was he allowed to come into England and carry out propaganda in this country before the expiry of his sentence?

There was an exchange of communications between Mr. Nehru and the Government, and it was understood that his movements in Europe should be without restriction.

Trade and Commerce

Russia

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether advantage was taken of the presence in London of M. Litvinoff, the Russian Foreign Minister, to commence the negotiations for a formal treaty of commerce and navigation between the British Government and the Government of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics to take the place of the provisional trade agreement which was approved by the House of Commons on the assurance that it was only temporary pending the formal treaty which would contain provisions dealing with the question of compensation to British nationals in respect of their property which had been appropriated by the Soviet authorities?

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the late Foreign Secretary gave me an assurance in this House that the first opportunity would be taken to raise this matter, especially having regard to the fact that these unfortunate people have not received a grant even on account of their claims?

That is not quite the question on the Paper. I am afraid that I could not consider that either the place or the moment was appropriate.

As the Soviet Foreign Secretary was here, and as this is only a temporary agreement, surely the moment was very appropriate to start negotiations?

Yugoslavia (Sanctions, Compensation)

asked the President of the Board of Trade why the Treaty of Peace (Covenant of the League of Nations) (No. 4) Order, 1935, made on 20th December and operated since 23rd December last, gave concessions at the expense of our agricultural industry only for substantial reductions in import duties and for allocation of a quota in the case of agricultural produce (poultry, eggs and bacon) exported by Yugoslavia to this country, by way of compensation for general loss of trade to Italy as a result of the application of sanctions; what steps he proposes to take to compensate home agricultural producers who are thereby deprived of a market; and whether it is proposed to make concessions on the same lines to any other countries?

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that great uneasiness has been caused to poultry farmers by the concession granted to Yugoslavia; and whether he will undertake that no further sacrifices shall be demanded from any branch of the agricultural industry in this country as a result of the application of sanctions to Italy?

The assistance in question was granted to Yugoslavia in view of the exceptionally heavy loss of exports, to the extent of over one-fifth of her total exports, which that country was likely to suffer as a result of applying sanctions. In these circumstances the Yugoslav Government applied to His Majesty's Government for assistance, and this His Majesty's Government felt bound to accord, in view of their obligations under Article 16 (3) of the Covenant of the League of Nations and in view of Proposal 5 of the Coordination Committee. The nature of the trade between Yugoslavia and the United Kingdom is such that practical assistance could only be given in respect of the commodities mentioned. The quantities concerned represent in the case of eggs, chickens and bacon respectively, 0.26 per cent., 1.0 per cent. and 0.1 per cent. of total United Kingdom supplies, and in these circumstances I do not think that home agricultural producers need have grounds for uneasiness. As regards possible requests for assistance from other countries applying sanctions, I cannot make any definite statement, except to repeat that Yugoslavia had exceptionally strong claims in this matter.

Will my hon. and gallant Friend answer the question why this concession had to be met by one industry only, namely, the agritural industry, and why other industries should not share in the burden?

If my hon. and gallant Friend will read the answer, he will see the reason. It is because it happens to be the only industry which could help.

Have any calculations been made as to how many States will have to become aggressors before we wreck our tariff policy?

Will my hon. and gallant Friend not give some assurance that if any similar inducement to other nations like this is to be given, it will be shared between other industries, and that he will not fine only the agricultural industry in this country?

Is it not a fact that every other industry is already contributing to the agricultural industry in this country?

Cotton Goods (Import Duties, India)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is yet in a position to report on the result of the visit to India of the Lancashire textile delegation with reference to the reduction of the import duties on cotton goods?

No, Sir. So far as I am aware, the Special Tariff Board which conducted the inquiry has not yet submitted its report.

Irish Free State

asked the Undersecretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether any negotiations have taken place during the present Parliament between responsible, representatives of the Irish Free State and members of the Government with a view to removing the taxes off imports and exports to both countries?

Discussions are taking place between representatives of the two Governments in connection with the coal-cattle arrangement reached last year.

Will my right hon. Friend remember that there are other exports from this country to the Irish Free State besides coal?

International Copyright

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the British representatives at the forthcoming conference on international copyright will press for the revision of that part of the American copyright law which makes it a condition of copyright in the United States that the publication must be composed in the States or, alternatively, to obtain recognition for an amendment of the British Copyright Act to the same effect as affecting British copyright?

As the United States of America do not belong to the International Union for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works, amendment of United States copyright legislation could not properly be the subject of discussion at the meeting of the Union in September next. As regards the second part of the question, I would inform the hon. Member that Article VI (2) of the Rome Copyright Convention allows countries belonging to the Union to take, under certain conditions, retaliatory measures against the works of nationals of countries outside the Union.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he is sufficiently interested in the question to approach the United States direct on this matter?

There is a Bill at the moment before the Congress in the United States, and I think that perhaps we had better await the fate of that Bill.

China

British Trade (Turkestan)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the object of Sir Eric Teichman's journey from Peking through Chinese Turkestan to India; and whether he proposes to publish any report thereon?

Sir Eric Teichman's journey was undertaken with the object of investigating conditions of British trade in Chinese Turkestan, and of exploring the desirability of maintaining with the provincial authorities at Urumchi closer relations than are at present possible through His Majesty's Consulate-General at Kashgar. The question of the publication of a report has not yet been considered.

Would it not be very advisable to publish this report in view of the penetration of Russia in Chinese Turkestan which is really the excuse for Japanese penetration in the Far East?

Tientsin-Pukow Railway

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that the average monthly profits of the Tientsin-Pukow railway during 1934 were between 500,000 and 600,000 dollars; and what steps he has taken to secure the payment of arrears of interest and amortisation on loans from British bondholders?

According to my information, the figures given by my hon. Friend represent approximately the published revenue of the Tientsin-Pukow railway during 1934. It is not, however, certain that this sum can be said to represent the net profits available for the service of the loan. As regards the second part of the question, I can assure my hon. Friend that His Majesty's Ambassador at Peking has taken and will continue to take every suitable opportunity of reminding the Chinese Government of their obligations in respect of this loan.

Can my right hon. Friend tell me what has become of the fund that was being put aside month by month for meeting the arrears of interest?

Customs Revenues

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has been informed of a direction by General Sung Che-yuan to the Commissioner of Customs in Tientsin to remit the Customs revenues to Peking as from 1st January; whether the direction has been complied with; and whether His Majesty's Government have protested against this proposed interference with the revnues upon which British loans to China are secured?

I recently received a report showing that the Hopei-Chahar Political Council, of which General Sung is the chairman, had, under, it was stated, the instructions of the Chinese Central Government, issued such instructions to the Commissioner of Customs at Tientsin. According to my latest information, however, the Customs revenues, with the exception of such sums as are necessary to defray salaries and other local administrative expenses, are still being remitted to the Inspector-General of Customs at Shanghai. The answer to the last part of the question does not, therefore, arise.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any information as to a demand by the Japanese military authorities for the complete fiscal severance of North China from Nanking, including the retention of all customs, salt, and other revenues in the provinces of Hopei and Chahar by those provinces; whether the salt revenues in those provinces are being paid direct to the Hopei-Chahar council instead of being sent to Nanking; and to what extent the security for foreign loans would be affected by any diversion of the Customs and salt revenue in the manner indicated?

I have no information to the effect that the Japanese military authorities have made such a demand. As regards the second part of the question, my latest information is that the revenues in question are being paid to the credit of the Central Government, that part necessary for the loan service being sent to Shanghai. As regards the last part of the question, I have no information suggesting that the position in regard to the service of foreign loans has been affected.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what ports of China at which the Imperial Customs were collected when British loans were guaranteed on them are now fully contributing to the Chinese revenue?

According to my information, all ports of China at which Customs duties are now collected contribute fully to the Chinese revenue, except those situated in Manchuria.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has made any protest against the proposal that the autonomous council recently set up in the province of Hopei should retain the revenues collected there by the maritime customs authorities; and whether, in view of the large amount of British capital which is secured on the imperial maritime customs of China, the strongest representation will be made against any further appropriation of these revenues?

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to the reduction of the security of British holders of Chinese loans by the withdrawal of part of the imperial customs revenue, on the security of which they are pledged; and whether he is making any representations to the Japanese authorities on the subject?

I presume that my Noble Friend has in mind the recent press reports regarding the diversion of Customs revenues collected in North China to the Hopei-Chahar Political Council. My information is that the revenues in question are not in fact being thus diverted, and the question of representations does not, therefore, arise. I am, however, fully aware of the large British interests involved in this question, and His Majesty's Ambassador in China is keeping me fully informed of all developments.

League of Nations (Refugees)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can make any statement with regard to the arrangements now being made by the League of Nations for the protection and settlement of refugees from Germany and other countries?

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can make any statement on the arrangements made at the recent League of Nations Council for carrying on the work of the Nansen Office for Refugees; and whether, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, he endeavoured to secure measures safeguarding the position of those refugees who come under the Nansen Office until the work of settlement or assimilation is completed?

The Council of the League of Nations considered this question at its recent session in the light of a report submitted by the Committee on International Assistance to Regugees, set up in virtue of the Assembly's decision of 28th September, 1935. The Council decided to refer the report, which contains various alternative proposals regarding measures of a lasting character, to the Assembly. The Council also decided on certain interim measures as follow: Mr. Michael Hansson, the Norwegian Member of the Committee on International Assistance to Refugees, was appointed to act for the time being as President of the governing body of the Nansen International Office, and was entrusted with the task of drawing up, with the assistance of the Secretariat of the League, a revised programme for the liquidation of the Office. The President of the Council was authorised to appoint, with the approval of members of the Council, a High Commissioner to deal until the next session of the Assembly with questions connected with refugees coming from Germany. It will be the duty of the High Commissioner to prepare, in agreement with the Secretary-General of the League, for the meeting of an inter-Governmental conference to arrange a system of legal protection for refugees coming from Germany; to undertake consultations with the different Governments regarding the question of finding employment and homes for refugees; and to establish liaison in such manner as he may consider desirable with the private associations dealing with assistance to refugees.

Can the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that everything is being done to protect these refugees?

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether he is himself satisfied with what is being done about them?

We must do what we can, but it is not a very simple position with which we have to deal.

When the right hon. Gentleman says that Mr. Hansson has been appointed to liquidate the office, does that mean that a final decision has been come to and that these measures for the protection of the refugees are to come to an end within a fixed period?

In view of the fact that so many of the refugees from Germany left with passports and those passports have now expired and they cannot get visas on expired passports, is anything being done to meet this very urgent situation pending the negotiations which are taking place?

Italy and Abyssinia

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that British firms are chartering Italian tramp steamers, thereby enabling Italy to obtain an important invisible export; and whether he proposes to take action against this infringement of the spirit of the sanctions resolutions of the League of Nations?

As regards the first part of the question, I have no official information on this subject, and I shall be glad to receive any concrete evidence which the hon. Member may be able to furnish. As regards the second part, such transactions are not contrary to the proposals of the Co-ordination Committee, or to the measures taken in the United Kingdom in execution of those proposals.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to a broadcast from Rome on 17th January last, alleging that during the battle against Ras Desta it was proved again that all Abyssinian battalions are under the command of European officers, most of whom are British; and whether representations have been or will be made to the Italian Government by His Majesty's Government asking for an explanation of this broadcast allegation?

Yes, Sir. The terms of this broadcast were brought to the notice of the Italian Ambassador in London on 30th January. His Majesty's Ambassador at Rome was also instructed on 4th February to raise the matter with the Italian Government and to urge them to issue a denial of the allegations referred to. Sir Eric Drummond was informed that the version of the broadcast published in Italy did not contain the passage complained of, but that the Italian Government were conducting inquiries with a view to ascertaining the facts. His Majesty's Ambassador will continue to keep this matter before the attention of the Italian Government. I feel confident that no credence will be given in any quarter to baseless allegations of the kind to which the hon. Member refers.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether His Majesty's Government have asked any governments, other than those enumerated in Cmd. 5072, whether they were prepared to render armed assistance, under paragraph 3 of Article 16 of the Covenant of the League of Nations, in the event of special measures of a military character being aimed at Great Britain by Italy?

Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the desirability of approaching the Soviet Government with a view to further fortifying the position in regard to the question of collective security?

Is it not the case that the Soviet Government is a peace-loving Government and therefore has no troops?

My question was put without any desire for a Debate. Will the right hon. Gentleman give me an answer?

I should like to consider it. The approach was first made to those geographically nearest at hand.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any information on how many occasions since the outbreak of hostilities Italian aircraft have bombed Red Cross units in Abyssinia; and whether any British Red Cross units or British subjects serving with Red Cross units have been attacked in this way?

According to such information as is available, I understand that the American hospital at Dessie was bombed on 6th December last. On 30th December the Swedish Ambulance operating with the Ethiopian forces on the southern front was virtually destroyed by aircraft near Dolo, and on 4th January Ethiopian Red Cross Ambulance No. 1, whose staff includes two British subjects, was bombed and machine-gunned near Dagabur The one wholly British Ambulance now serving in Ethiopia has not suffered as the result of Italian air action.

Can the Foreign Secretary give the House an assurance that in these attacks on British subjects no British oil has been used?

In consequence of this wicked method of warfare which is going on in Abyssinia, does the right hon. Gentleman not think that it is time to bring the matter before the League with a view to getting an abolition of the practice?

In view of the suffering which has been caused to British subjects, has the Foreign Secretary made any representations to the Italian Government?

I should like to see that question on the Order Paper. I might say that there has been no suffering of British subjects.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs on what date Italy was declared by the Council of the League to be an aggressor; and on what date it was decided, in principle, at Geneva that the application of economic sanctions against Italy should include oil?

As regards the first part of the question, on 7th October last 14 members of the League represented on the Council concurred in the view that the Italian Government had resorted to war in disregard of Article 12 of the Covenant. As regards the second part, on 6th November the Committee of Eighteen recommended that measures of embargo should, as soon as the conditions necessary to render such an extension effective had been realised, be extended to include petroleum, its derivatives, by-products and residues.

Can the Foreign Secretary tell us why there has been all this delay since 6th November and the operation of sanctions has not taken effect?

Can the right hon. Gentleman say when the report of the Committee of the League which is considering oil sanctions is to be expected?

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the League of Nations is in possession of any approximate figures of the number of casualties in the Italian-Abyssinian conflict between 19th December, 1935, and 19th January, 1936, or the nearest convenient date; and whether these figures can be now published?

No information has been communicated to His Majesty's Government by the League of Nations regarding the casualties suffered by the belligerents in the Italo-Abyssinian war, and, so far as I am aware, no figures are available.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether any steps are being taken by the military attachés on both sides to obtain information on this very important question?

Would not such figures be of value, as showing the amount of blood that is being shed, in order to support the prestige of the League of Nations?

Russia (Parliamentary Constitution)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to the consideration by the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics of a parliamentary constitution; and whether His Majesty's Ambassador at Moscow has been or will be instructed to supply to the Government of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics any information as to our institutions which may be asked for concerning single-member constituencies, direct election, and co-operation between the executive and the legislature, which are the bases of democracy?

I have seen Press reports on this subject. I have no confirmation of these reports, but if His Majesty's Ambassador at Moscow is approached for information on the points mentioned, every effort will be made to supply it.

Then we may be quite sure that His Majesty's representative in Moscow is as convinced as the right hon. Gentleman of the superiority of the British Constitution?

Does the right hon. Gentleman not think that the authorities in Moscow know all about the constitutional methods of this country?

Egypt

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can assure the House that, in view of the changed international situation, the complete freedom of action of His Majesty's Government in their negotiations for a treaty with Egypt will not be restricted by the terms of earlier draft treaties?

The principle that no Government can be bound by the provisions of an inconclusive previous negotiation is, of course, well recognised in inter- national practice. In the present negotiations, the application of this principle must naturally be governed by the mutual interests of the two countries.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is in a position to add anything to his recent statement regarding negotiations with the Egyptian Government for a settlement of outstanding differences between this country and Egypt?

Brazil (British Bondholders)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that the Brazilian Minister of Finance, Dr. Corta, proposes to raise a loan in London to meet commercial credits created since July, 1933, and to reserve £1,200,000 per annum in foreign exchange to liquidate the loans; and will His Majesty's Government request the Brazilian Government to meet its earlier obligations to British holders of Brazilian bonds, now in default for the fourth time, before diverting foreign exchange to meet Brazilian obligations incurred since July, 1933?

I assume that my hon. Friend is referring to the arrangements to be made by the Brazilian Government for the liquidation of arrears of commercial debts to the United Kingdom under the Anglo-Brazilian Payments Agreement of 27th March, 1925. My hon. Friend will no doubt remember that it has previously been explained to the House that the arrangements provided by this Agreement involve a smaller immediate charge on the sterling resources of Brazil than would be involved by the normal payment of the commercial debts in cash on their due dates. It will therefore be clear that these arrangements are to the advantage of holders of Brazilian external bonds.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware of the hardship that is involved for the holders of these external bonds, and will he do anything he can to see that the British holders of the bonds are protected?

I understand that the arrangement is of advantage to the holders of Brazilian external bonds.

Palestine

Refugees

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether in view of the conditions with regard to Jewish refugees from Germany, as set out in the recent report issued by the League Commissioner, Mr. Macdonald, he will take steps to ensure that the facilities for such refugees to enter Palestine are greatly improved in the near future?

I have been asked to reply to this question. The amount of immigration into Palestine at any time must be determined by the High Commissioner for Palestine in relation to the economic absorptive capacity of the country. But I know that Sir A. Wauchope can be relied upon to give sympathetic consideration to the claims of Jewish immigrants from Germany in so far as it may be possible to do so.

Trade Reciprocity

asked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether his attention has been called to the resolution recently passed by the national committee which is organising official French participation in the forthcoming Levant Fair in Palestine, urging the French Government to extend a greater measure of reciprocity to trade with Palestine and to furnish better facilities for the import of Palestine goods, such as citrus fruit, into France; and whether he will recommend similar action in this country, in view of the scope that exists for increased export trade to Palestine?

I have no information in regard to the resolution referred to in the first part of the question. As regards the latter part, I am not sure what better facilities my hon. and gallant Friend has in mind but it has already been announced that His Majesty's Government are unable, owing to juridical difficulties, to grant preferences to Palestine products. I would point out that in 1934 some 55 per cent. of Palestine's exports were sent to the United Kingdom, while exports to France were less than 1 per cent.

Proposed Legislative Council

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in view of the protests made against the proposals for the establishment of a Legislative Council in Palestine, he will review the position with a view to making a new statement on the matter?

Towards the end of December the High Commissioner for Palestine communicated to the Arab and the Jewish leaders the proposals of Government for a Legislative Council. The Jews made it clear that in this particular matter they do not feel able to co-operate with Government, but I have not yet received from the High Commissioner a report as to the reception given to the proposals by the Arabs. The hon. Member will, I am sure, appreciate that at the present stage there is no further statement which I can make.

Are we to understand that the right hon. Gentleman will not review the scheme of the constitution, although there is time to do so, and if he has not the time, will tie get his colleagues to review it?

The policy I have indicated in this matter, indeed the policy for Palestine as a whole, is the responsibility of the Government as a whole and not of any one Minister.

Are we to understand then that not only the right hon. Gentleman but the Cabinet are committed to the particular constitution laid down by the High Commissioner?

Will the right hon. Gentleman see that in constituting a Legislative Council for Palestine a statutory majority is not given to those who demand the repeal of the Mandate?

Jaffa and Haifa (Trunk Road)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in view of the importance of providing adequate means of transport between Jaffa and Haifa, he will urge upon the High Commissioner for Palestine the desirability of completing the trunk road between those towns before the end of the current year?

Whilst I can hold out no hope that the road will be completed before the end of the current year, my hon. Friend will be pleased to know that the possibility of accelerating its construction is under consideration.

Travel and Industrial Association

asked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department, what steps the Government propose to take to assist the Travel and Industrial Association of Great Britain to increase and extend their present activities?

I presume my hon. and gallant Friend has in mind the financial aid which the Association have up to the present received from His Majesty's Government. The question of the amount of the grant which His Majesty's Government will provide in the coming financial year is at present under consideration.

In considering the matter, will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind the very valuable work that this Association does in inducing people to spend money in travelling in England, instead of going abroad?

Certainly, and I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer will bear it in mind, as well.

Agriculture

Subsidies (Cattle Registration)

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is satisfied that sufficient publicity was given to the announcement made by the Cattle Committee on 15th October, 1935, regarding the marking of beasts and their certification for the payment of subsidies; and, in view of the fact that hundreds of farmers were uninformed on the matter, whether he is prepared to extend the time which was allowed for registration?

The announcement of 15th October, 1935, was issued to the national, local and agricultural Press and was in fact widely published therein. A further notice in the form of a final reminder was issued to the Press on 13th November, 1935, and similarly received wide publicity. The substance of the notice was broadcast at the end of the fat stock prices on 6th, 8th and 28th November. Large posters were displayed for more than five weeks at livestock markets throughout the country and auctioneers were asked to draw the attention of farmers attending their markets, from the rostrum, to the requirements of the committee. Copies of the notice were sent to all county branches of the National Farmers' Union and the Union assisted in giving publicity to the notice in their publications. In consequence of these notices, applications for registration of ear-marked animals were received by the committee during the period 15th October to 30th November, 1935, the last date for registration, from approximately 13,000 producers, in respect of about 150,000 cattle. The number of late applications received after 30th November has been approximately 600. In the circumstances, I do not feel that I should be justified in asking the committee to give any extension of time for registration.

Would it not be much better if all these farmers were put on the means test before they got the subsidy?

Trade Agreements

39.

asked the Minister of Agriculture (1) whether he is prepared, to arrange for a consultative committee representative of British agriculture to be set up to advise him in connection with the negotiations for a revision of the commercial agreement with the Argentine republic?

(2) whether he is prepared to arrange for a consultative committee, representative of British agriculture, to be set up to advise him in connection with the negotiations for a revision of the commercial agreement with Denmark?

I am taking, and intend to take, every opportunity of consulting with representatives of British agriculture in connection with this and other agricultural questions. As to the setting up of formal consultative committees, I regret that I do not see my way to adopt my hon. Friend's suggestion.

Will the right hon. Gentleman allow the House to hear any arrangements he may make about Argentine meat and agricultural products before we are asked to ratify them?

Will the right hon. Gentleman see that the existing agreement is denounced in time?

Will the Minister consult other interests beside agriculture before he makes any arrangements?

These arrangements are considered by the Board of Trade, which takes all interests into consideration.

What does the Board of Trade do for agriculture under these agreements except to give it away?

National Stud (Irish Free State)

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether any further negotiations have taken place with regard to the closing down of the national stud in the Irish Free State, and the possibility of its transference to this country?

I am not able to add anything to the reply which I gave to my hon. Friend on 5th December last respecting to these negotiations.

Potatoes (Prices)

asked the Minister of Agriculture what representations have been made to him on behalf of the fish friers in Newcastle-on-Tyne with regard to the prohibitive cost of potatoes used in connection with their business; and is he prepared to grant special rates to those employed in this industry?

I have received representations on behalf of the fish friers on several occasions and have, of course, given them my careful consideration in connection with general policy. I have no power either to fix the prices of potatoes or to grant special rates to those employed in the fish frying industry.

Has the right hon. Gentleman access to any figures showing the prices for fried fish?

It is not a question of access to figures; they are being arrived at by the Sea Fish Commission, which will shortly issue its report.

asked the Minister of Agriculture when the Sea Fish Commission is likely to make its report; and, as the fish friers of this country take approximately 60 per cent. of the total catch of white fish and are among the largest purchasers of British potatoes, will he favourably consider receiving a deputation of the Fish Friers' Association before coming to definite conclusions on the Commission's report?

I understand that the Sea Fish Commission expect to be in a position to present their report by the end of the present month. As regards the request contained in the second part of the question, I think it would be best to await the publication of the report. I can assure my hon. Friend that the industrial and trading bodies concerned will have full opportunity of considering and expressing their views on matters arising out of the report before any decisions are taken by the Government.

Beet Sugar Factories

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is aware that there has hitherto been great dissatisfaction among sugar-beet producers that the factories are controlled by foreign capital, and that the principal beneficiaries from the subsidy have thus been the foreign shareholders; and whether he will take advantage of the proposed reorganization of the factories to have this state of affairs remedied?

As indicated in the reply which I gave to my hon. Friend on 6th February, I am not at present in a position to give details as to the terms of the proposed amalgamation of the factory companies.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that the object of putting down the question was because the reply of 6th February gave rise to a considerable amount of feeling in the industry that foreign capital is benefiting by the subsidy paid by this House?

Is it not the case that British shareholders have been allowed to make many foreign investments?

asked the Minister of Agriculture the terms upon which the various beet-sugar factories will be taken over by the suggested British Sugar Corporation, Limited; in what methods the terms were arrived at; and whether such terms have been submitted to the shareholders and debenture holders of the individual companies?

I would ask my hon. and gallant Friend to await the statement I propose to make during the Debate this afternoon.

Colorado Beetle

asked the Minister of Agriculture who are the British representatives at the international conference in Brussels on combating the Colorado beetle pest?

The conference, which was primarily of interest to countries suffering from outbreaks of the Colorado beetle, was held on 22nd and 23rd January last. It was arranged for the conference to be attended by the Commercial Counsellor to His Majesty's Embassy at Brussels.

Tithe Rentcharge (Royal Commission's Report)

asked the Minister of Agriculture what reason exists for withholding the Report of the Tithe Commission which has been in the hands of the Government for over two months?

As I stated in my reply of the 5th December to questions by my hon. Friends the Member for Harwich (Mr. Holmes) and the Member for Mid-Bedford (Mr. Lennox-Boyd), it is the intention of the Government that the publication of the report on tithe rent-charge will take place at the same time as a statement by the Government of their policy in regard thereto. As I informed my right hon. Friend on 4th February, it has been necessary to hold further consultations on specific points arising from the report. The report will be published and the statement of Government policy made as soon as possible.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not straining the rights of the Government in withholding this information from, the House?

I hope not. I am sure that the last thing I wish to do is to strain the rights of the Executive as against the House. My desire is to get the matter settled—that is my excuse?

Do I understand the right hon. Gentleman to say that it rests with the Government to decide how long a period shall elapse between the reception of the report of a Royal Commission and its publication?

No, Sir. A report ought to be brought up as soon as possible and all my endeavours are towards that end, but if for the convenience of all concerned further matters can be elucidated, I am sure that the House would agree it would be much better.

Can the right hon. Gentleman give any reason why the report should not be circulated at once?

Is it the intention of the Government to circulate the report; and if that is the case will he indicate why those who are interested can have access to it now?

Can the right hon. Gentleman say why the Archbishop of Canterbury has been allowed to have a sight of this report before it is made public?

I have made that point clear. Further consultations have been held on specific points which have arisen, and will be held on other points which might arise.

Meat Supplies (London Area)

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he will take steps to secure that British meat, destined for London and surrounding areas, shall have adequate facilities for marketing and distribution other than those provided at Smithfield?

I assume that my right hon. Friend has in mind permanent and not emergency measures. I regret that I have no power to secure the provision of additional facilities for the marketing of home-killed meat in the London area. All relevant considerations, will, I am sure, be borne in mind by producers' organisations in formulating their plans for improving the marketing arrangements for the livestock industry, following the work of the reorganisation commissions that reported on the general problem.

Has the producers' committee any power in this matter and is my right hon. Friend satisfied with the present very congested position at Smithfield, where every carcase has to be carried in and carried out on a man's back?

The producers' committee has no power in the matter except in so far as they are organised; and I think I have heard vigorous criticisms from my right hon. Friend on the results of other organisations of producers.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that there is a vested interest, and that the City Corporation draw something like £150,000 a year in rents and dues?

It is not a question of the present position in Smithfield Market but of what arrangement, if any, should replace the present arrangement, and the matter is one which must be first for the consideration of the producers themselves.

Milk Act, 1934

asked the Minister of Agriculture what action the Government propose to take when the main provisions of the Milk Act, 1934, expire at the end of March?

For several reasons, including the currency of various trade agreements and the fact that the report of the Reorganisation Commission for Milk for Great Britain is not likely to be published for some time to come, it is not possible at present to bring before Parliament long-term legislation for the milk industry. In order to allow adequate time for the consideration by all parties of the important questions at issue, the Government have decided to ask Parliament to continue until the end of September, 1937, the main provisions of the Milk Act, 1934. A Bill to give effect to this decision will be introduced forthwith.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say how much it is likely to cost the consumer?

Milk

asked the Minister of Health how many protests have been received by his Department concerning the revised draft Order, special designations for milk; whether he is aware of the general opposition of all producers of certified milk and all those agencies who are trying to improve the standard and quality of milk; and whether he will consult with interested bodies before the revised draft Order comes into force?

My right hon. Friend has received very few representations with regard to the revised draft Milk (Special Designations) Order, which was published on the 24th January. The answer to the second part of the question is in the negative. It is open to any interested parties to make representations to my right hon. Friend upon the draft within 40 days of its publication, and any such representations will receive full consideration.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that virtually all producers of certified milk regard the new designations Order as a deterioration and as something calculated to retard the development and production of good quality milk?

Naturally, certain inconvenience is caused when legislation is changed, but I think much of the opposition to the new Order is based on misunderstanding.

Do I understand from the hon. Gentleman then that his right hon. Friend and himself would be willing to listen to representations by certified producers?

asked the Minister of Agriculture the number of foreign-owned factories for making condensed milk set up in this country in the last two years and the price paid by these factories for milk?

I am informed that during the last two years one foreign-owned factory has been established in England and Wales for the manufacture of condensed milk. The price payable for milk for manufacture into condensed milk is 6d. per gallon; in the case of condensed milk for export, however, the price is the same as that for milk manufactured into cheese, subject to a minimum of 4d. per gallon.

May I ask whether by "foreign-owned factories" my right hon. Friend means those controlled by foreign capital or those controlled by foreign directors?

King George V(Memorial)

asked the Prime Minister whether he will consider making a national appeal for funds to purchase the site adjoining the Canning enclosure in Parliament Square for the purpose of making this an open space as a permanent memorial to His late Majesty King George V?

My hon. Friend may be sure that the whole question of the most appropriate memorial to His late Majesty will be most carefully considered.

Is the Prime Minister aware that the site referred to in this question has been purchased by the Middlesex County Council and that they and the London County Council are prepared to give two-thirds of the cost if the Treasury will give the other third, so that this great improvement in the centre of the Empire might be carried out?

Post Office

Telephone Service

asked the Postmaster-General in what manner a telephone user is protected when using an automatic public telephone call-box in which, after inserting the money, he is connected with a wrong number, the original call later being ineffective; how can the user obtain his money back; and the amount of refunds that have been made for these cases during the 12 months to the last convenient date?

In an exceptional case such as that described it is not practicable to refund the call fee by mechanical means; but the caller can obtain a refund by post if he gives his name and address to the telephone operator. Refunds of this type are not separately recorded; and statistics of the total amount so refunded are not available.

When a member of the public is called upon to communicate with the Postmaster-General, will he be entitled to write across the envelope the words "On His Majesty's Service" and post it without a postage stamp?

The only point raised here is in connection with telephone kiosks, and in that case the member of the public obviously can ask the telephone operator to do what is required.

But if the telephone is defective and the person concerned is called upon to communicate with the Postmaster-General, can he mark the envelope "On His Majesty's Service" and post without a stamp?

I cannot undertake to give free postage to everyone who wants to make complaints, which may not be justified at all.

Is it not the case that Ministers of the Crown are among the persons who are authorised to receive unstamped, communications, and therefore is there any need for members of the public or Members of this House to stamp their communications to a Minister?

My point was that this is a question of telephoning, and for telephoning stamps are not required.

asked the Postmaster-General what safeguards are taken by the telephone services to ensure that telegrams sent over the telephone are charged to the correct subscriber?

The telephone number furnished by the sender of a telegram is recorded by the operator, and is repeated back to the sender for confirmation. In addition, there are special checks against the possibility of inaccurate recording by the operators.

Would it be possible for the Postmaster-General to set up a system of ringing back to the sender's number in order to make sure that a false number has not been given dishonestly?

It is true that it would be possible, but if we rang up everyone who had sent a telegram, many people would be infuriated at being asked whether they really had sent a telegram when they had just finished despatching it.

asked the Postmaster-General whether in view of the delay caused at times when dialling O on the automatic telephone exchange in the case of an emergency, he will consider with his engineers whether another dialling signal can be substituted on all automatic exchanges direct to fire, police, and ambulance stations; how long it would take to make this alteration in the present telephone equipment, and what would be the estimated cost?

I recently appointed a committee to consider the best means of securing the rapid setting up of emergency telephone calls; and I am afraid it would be difficult to frame estimates such as the hon. Member asks for before receiving their recommendations.

When does the right hon. and gallant Gentleman hope to receive a report on this matter, which is of great urgency?

Air Mails

asked the Postmaster-General what sums were paid to foreign air lines during the year 1935 for the carriage of British mail to South America?

During 1935 a sum of approximately £60,000 was paid to the French and German postal administrations for the carriage of British air mail to South America.

asked the Postmaster-General whether as it has been announced that all first-class mail matter for abroad will travel in the near future by air, it is the Government's intention to withdraw from the shipping companies who at present carry the mails the sums paid to them annually under the mail contracts?

I have no knowledge of an announcement that all first-class mail matter for abroad will travel in the near future by air. In the cases in which it is contemplated that further advantage should be taken of air transport for the conveyance of overseas mail, any modifications in mail contracts with shipping companies will depend upon circumstances.

Auxiliary Postmen, Weardale (Wages)

asked the Postmaster-General whether he will increase the wages of auxiliary postmen in Weardale, county Durham, as some of these men are doing rounds in a rural area where roads are almost impassable in winter, and the time occupied in postal delivery precludes them from obtaining other wage-earning occupations; and will he state the present weekly wages paid to such men?

I am looking into the matter and will write to the hon. Member as soon as my inquiries are complete.

Bridgeman Committee

asked the Postmaster-General to what extent the recommendations of the Bridgeman Committee have been implemented by his Department; and, if there be any still outstanding, can he give an idea as to when these will be completed?

The main recommendations of Lord Bridgeman's Committee comprised: The first three recommendations have been put into operation and the fourth is in process of application. I will send the hon. Member a separate statement on this aspect of the question.

Broadcasting

Television Service

asked the Postmaster-General whether the new television broadcasting service will be in operation before the coming summer; and whether he will suggest that arrangements should be made for this service to be received in some convenient part of the Palace of Westminster, so that Members may have an opportunity of keeping in touch with the progress made?

It is not yet possible to give an approximate date for the opening of the television broadcasting service, but it is expected that the service will be in operation during the coming summer. The suggestion contained in the latter part of my hon. Friend's question is primarily a matter for the First Commissioner of Works. I understand that in 1930 the opinion of practically all sections of the House was strongly opposed to the installation of a wireless receiving set, and I imagine that the House would take a similar view in regard to television.

Continental Transmissions (Advertisements)

asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that a total of 50½ hours of programmes, obviously directed to British audiences, were broadcast from the Poste Parisien, Radio Normandy and Radio Luxembourg broadcasting stations during the week of 12th January to 18th January, 1936, according to published programmes, these broadcasts being of the nature of publicity and being sponsored by 75 different business interests, seven of these being betting interests; and, seeing that such a practice on the part of certain Continental stations of broadcasting matter obviously intended for listeners in this country is an infringement of the rights of the British Broadcasting Corporation and, bearing in mind the deprecation of this practice by the Union Internationale de Radiodiffusion, whether any representations have been or will be made on behalf of His Majesty's Government to the foreign governments concerned with a view to its termination?

Communications have from time to time been addressed to the governments concerned calling attention to the resolution of the International Broadcasting Union, and asking whether they proposed to take any action in regard to the practice adopted at certain stations within their territories, of broadcasting advertisements in English for reception in this country. The policy to be followed in future will depend upon the decisions to be taken on the recommendations of the Ullswater Committee on the whole question of broadcasting policy.

Does not the fact that it is found worth while to broadcast these programmes show that listeners prefer them, in some cases, to the programmes which are broadcast from England; and will the right hon. and gallant Gentleman undertake not to interfere with the liberty of listeners to select whatever programmes they like?

I do not think that an interest in music is evidence that advertisements are popular, but as the whole future of the British Broadcasting Corporation is being considered by the Government, in the light of the recommendations of this very important committee, I suggest that it would be wise to wait until we have the advantage of their report.

Is not the best way of dealing with this thing to get the British Broadcasting Corporation to give better programmes?

Until the report of the Ullswater Committee has been received and acted upon, will the Minister cease to send representations to foreign governments to stop them?

That would involve a change in the Government policy, and we are carrying on with the present policy pending the report of the committee.

Is the right hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that 61 per cent. of British listeners listen to these transmissions and like them?

Scotland

Holyrood Park, Edinburgh (Lighting)

asked the First Commissioner of Works whether he is aware that there is considerable complaint with regard to the lighting of Holyrood Park, through which many persons have to pass during the dark hours; and whether he can now give instructions that the lamps shall be lighted at night so that the safety and convenience of such persons may be secured?

I am aware that complaints have been made about the lack of lighting in Holyrood Park, and investigations are now being made as to the possibility of restoring artificial lighting with the existing equipment as soon as practicable.

In view of the dissatisfaction which exists in Edinburgh at the present state of affairs, will the right hon. Gentleman accelerate his inquiries so that no unnecessary delay shall take place?

Yes, but I would point out that the artificial lighting of Holyrood Park was given up 20 years ago, and now that there is a demand for its restoration, I would like to have all the mains tested. That is being done.

Unemployment (Allotments)

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what progress has been made in regard to the acquisition of additional land near Peebles for the extension of the existing scheme of allotments for unemployed men?

It is expected that the present applicants for plots can be accommodated on the existing scheme at Peebles, but additional land will be acquired if this proves necessary.

Is my hon. and gallant Friend aware that the residue of the present area is very poor land, and practically unfit for anything, whereas if there were additional land that would grow anything worth while growing, there would be from 20 to 30 extra applicants?

I shall be glad to look into the points which my hon. and gallant Friend raises.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what progress has been made in regard to the acquisition of land near Penicuik for the initiation of a scheme for allotments for unemployed men?

Efforts to obtain land near Penicuik suitable for the provision of plots for unemployed men have so far been unsuccessful, but inquiries are in progress, which it is hoped will lead to land being made available.

In view of the fact that these inquiries have been going on for several months and that there is not much time left for preparing the ground for seed, will my hon. and gallant Friend take some special steps to hurry the matter?

I hope the inquiries which we are now pursuing will result inland being secured.

Newfoundland (Fishing Industry)

asked the Undersecretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether he can give an approximate estimate of the loss suffered by the Newfoundland fishing industry since the imposition of sanctions by the League of Nations?

Exports of fish to Italy are not prohibited by the sanctions now in force, but may be made only if they are paid for on or before delivery. In the three years 1931–34 Newfoundland's exports of codfish to Italy averaged $600,000 in value, but they had been declining for some months before sanctions were imposed, owing to the increasing difficulty of obtaining payment, and it is understood that they have now been reduced to very small proportions. I am not in a position to give an estimate of the total loss involved since this would have to take into account, among other factors, the depression of prices due to increased competition in other markets.

Coal Industry (Gresford Inquiry)

asked the Secretary for Mines whether the preliminary findings of the Gresford inquiry will be made available for the Commission on Mines Safety?

The hon. Member is no doubt aware that the Chief Inspector of Mines, who was appointed to hold the inquiry into the causes and circumstances of the Gresford disaster, is a member of the Royal Commission on Safety and Health in Coal Mines. Obviously, therefore, any available information will be at the disposal of the Commission.

Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that my question related to the information given to each individual concerned in that inquiry?

I think each individual will probably keep in close touch with the other members, and as I have said, the Chief Inspector of Mines is a member of the Commission.

Does the hon. and gallant Gentleman think it sufficient for men who are considering such a serious question only to have the information by word of mouth round a table? Does he not think it better that each should have a copy of the evidence before him, instead of wasting time round a table?

Will the hon. and gallant Member explain why the findings of this Gresford inquiry should not be published?

May I have an answer to my question? Where men's lives are concerned, ought there not to be some method whereby those who are investigating these questions should each have in their hands the facts relative to them?

Aliens

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware of the large number of aliens who are at present coming into Great Britain without passports on weekend tickets; what are the arrangements to secure that none of such aliens remain in this country after the week-end; and whether he is satisfied that the procedure employed is working satisfactorily?

Figures relating to this class of traffic are given in the annual statistics relating to alien passengers who enter and leave the United Kingdom. It must be remembered that the facilities are reciprocal and considerable inconvenience would be caused to citizens of this country if everyone had to be put to the trouble and expense of getting a passport for a week-end visit to the four Continental countries included in the arrangement. The foreign visitor here travels with a special form of ticket which contains his name and numbered coupons, and the coupon surrendered on the return journey is checked against that surrendered on arrival. The number of cases in which the return is not thus vouched for is extremely small and these cases are made the subject of inquiry. While the working of the system is constantly being watched with a view to improvements, I think its working may be regarded as reasonably satisfactory.

Do the Government think it fair that respectable and reputable citizens should be put to the trouble of having passports when disreputable people who want to come into the country can come without them?

asked the Home Secretary whether he will take steps to put an end to the practice of foreign women entering into temporary bogus marriages with British subjects in order to obtain British nationality and evade the law for the exclusion of undesirable aliens who desire to come into this country for immoral or criminal purposes?

For some years past steps have been taken to prevent undesirable foreign women coming to this country and contracting marriages of convenience for the purpose solely of obtaining British nationality. Cases of this kind are not numerous and the steps taken have been effective in restricting the mischief.

Will the hon. Gentleman take care not to put any obstacles in the course of true love?

Magistrates' Clerks (Salaries)

79 and 80.

asked the Home Secretary (1) whether the magistrates are in all cases responsible for fixing the salary of the clerk to the magistrates;

(2) what opportunities arise for the local authority responsible for finding the money to suggest any alteration in a scale of salaries fixed by the magistrates?

The salary of the clerk to borough justices is fixed by the justices, but the borough council may appeal to the Secretary of State against the decision of the justices and, if such an appeal is made, the amount of the salary is determined by the Secretary of State. The salary of the clerk to county justices is fixed by the standing joint committee of the county, and the justices for whom the clerk acts have a right of appeal to the Secretary of State.

Workmen's Compensation

asked the Home Secretary whether he will give statistics for the years 1933, 1934, and 1935, showing the total amount of premiums paid and the total amount of compensation paid to injured workers or the dependants of fatally injured workmen?

I regret that the precise figures asked for are not available but the hon. Member will find on page 7 of the Workmen's Compensation Statistics for 1933 and 1934 some figures bearing on the matter as regards insurance companies, and on page 4 the figures as to the total compensation paid in the industries which make returns to the Home Office under the Act. Corresponding figures for 1935 will not be available for some time.

Magistrates' Courts

asked the Home Secretary whether the Government are considering the advisability of setting up a Royal Commission on magistrates' courts?

There is at present a Departmental Committee inquiring into one aspect of the work of the magistrates' courts—namely the matrimonial work and the social services of these courts. This committee is expected to report at an early date and as soon as their report is received, my right hon. Friend will be in a possible to consider whether inquiry into other aspects of the work of these courts is desirable and what the form and scope of such inquiry should be.

Danzig

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that, in spite of decisions arrived at recently by the League of Nations at Geneva, there is, as yet, no change in the attitude adopted by the authorities in the free city of Danzig towards Jews, political minorities, the opposition press, and trade unions; and what steps it is proposed to take to implement League of Nations decisions in this connection?

As regards the first part of the question, I have no information to show that the Danzig Government do not intend to fulfil the undertakings they gave at the recent session of the Council. As regards the second part, the report adopted by the Council on 24th January left to the League's High Commissioner at Danzig the task of advising and aiding the Danzig Government in the execution of the measures referred to in the report, and added that the High Commissioner would be able to count on the support and influence of all the Powers represented on the Council.

Members Sworn

Several Members took and subscribed the Oath.

Bill Presented

Public Health (Coal Mine Refuse) Bill,

"to amend the Public Health Act, 1875, with respect to coal mine refuse liable to spontaneous combustion," presented by Mr. Tinker; supported by Mr. Gordon Macdonald, Mr. Batey, Mr. Parkinson, Mr. Rhys Davies, Mr. T. Smith, Mr. Logan, and Mr. Rowson; to be read a Second time upon Friday, 27th March, and to be printed.[Bill 54.]

Business of the House

Motion made, and Question put,

"That the Proceedings on Government Business be exempted, at this day's

Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[ The Prime Minister. ]

The House divided: Ayes, 240; Noes, 92.

Division No. 29.]

AYES.

[3.50 p.m.

Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J.

Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G.

Emmott, C. E. G. C.

Moreing, A. C.

Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

Emrys-Evans, P. V.

Morgan, R. H.

Aske, Sir R. W.

Erskine Hill, A. G.

Morris, O. T. (Cardiff, E.)

Assheton, R.

Everard, W. L.

Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H.

Astor, Major Hon. J. J. (Dover)

Fleming, E. L.

Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.)

Astor, Hon. W. W. (Fulham, E.)

Fraser, Capt. Sir I.

Morrison, W. S. Cirencester)

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Fremantle, Sir F. E.

Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J.

Balniel, Lord

Ganzoni, Sir J.

Munro, P. M.

Beauchamp, Sir B. C.

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir J.

Neven-Spence, Maj. B. H.

Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h)

Gluckstein, L. H.

Nicolson, Hon. H. G.

Bennett, Capt. Sir E. N.

Glyn, Major Sir R. G. C.

O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh

Bernays, R. H.

Goldie, N. B.

Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. W. G.

Blair, Sir R.

Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral)

Orr-Ewing, I. L.

Blaker, Sir R.

Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

Palmer, G. E. H.

Blindell, Sir J.

Gridley, Sir A. B.

Patrick, C. M.

Borodale, Viscount

Grimston, R. V.

Peake, O.

Bossom, A. C.

Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Drake)

Peat, C. U.

Boulton, W. W.

Guest, Hon. I. (Brecon and Radnor)

Percy, Rt. Hon. Lord E.

Bower, Comdr. R. T.

Guest, Maj. Hon. O.(C'mb'rw'll,N.W.)

Petherick, M.

Boyce, H. Leslie

Gunston, Capt. D. W.

Pickthorn, K. W. M.

Braithwaite, Major A. N.

Guy, J. C. M.

Plugge, L. F.

Briscoe, Capt. R. G.

Hacking, Rt. Hon. D. H.

Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith)

Hamilton, Sir G. C.

Porritt, R. W.

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury)

Hannah, I. C.

Pownall, Sir A. Assheton

Bull B. B.

Harvey, G.

Raikes, H. V. A. M.

Bullock, Capt. M.

Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.

Ramsay, Captain A. H. M.

Burghley, Lord

Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan-

Ramsbotham, H.

Burgin, Dr. E. L.

Herbert, A. P. (Oxford U.)

Rathbone, Eleanor (English Univ's.)

Burton, Col. H. W.

Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth)

Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin)

Butler, R. A.

Hills, Major Rt. Hon. J. W. (Ripon)

Reed, A. C. (Exeter)

Caine, G. R. Hall-

Holmes, J. S.

Reid, Sir D. D. (Down)

Campbell, Sir E. T.

Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J.

Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)

Cartland, J. R. H.

Hopkinson, A.

Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool)

Carver, Major W. H.

Hore-Belisha, Rt. Hon. L.

Ropner, Colonel L.

Cary, R. A.

Horsbrugh, Florence

Ross, Major Sir R. D. (L'derry)

Castlereagh, Viscount

Howitt, Dr. A. B.

Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir E. A.

Cayzer, Sir C. W. (City of Chester)

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.)

Runciman, Rt. Hon. W.

Cayzer, Sir H. R. (Portsmouth, S.)

Hudson, R. S. (Southport)

Russell, A. West (Tynemouth)

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir A. (Br. W.)

Hulbert, N. J.

Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury)

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n)

Hume, Sir G. H.

Salmon, Sir I.

Channon, H.

Hurd, Sir P. A.

Samuel, Sir A. M. (Farnham)

Chapman, A. (Rutherglen)

Jackson, Sir H.

Samuel, M. R. A. (Putney)

Chorlton, A. E. L.

James, Wing-Commander A. W.

Sandys, E. D.

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

Jarvis, Sir J. J.

Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir P.

Clarke, F. E.

Keeling, E. H.

Savery, Servington

Clarry, Sir R. G.

Kerr, H. W. (Oldham)

Scott, Lord William

Clydesdale, Marquess of

Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.)

Shakespeare, G. H.

Cobb, Sir C. S.

Knox, Major-General Sir A. W. F.

Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree)

Cochrane, Comdr. Hon. A. D.

Lamb, Sir J. Q.

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A.

Collins, Rt. Hon. Sir G. P.

Lambert, Rt. Hon. G.

Smiles, Lieut.-Colonel Sir W. D.

Colman, N. C. D.

Latham, Sir P.

Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen)

Colville, Lt.-Col. D. J.

Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L.

Smithers, Sir W.

Cook, T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.)

Levy, T.

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.)

Liddall, W. S.

Southby, Comdr. A. R. J.

Cooper, Rt. Hn. A. Duff (W'st'r S.G'gs)

Lindsay, K. M.

Spender-Clay, Lt.-Cl. Rt. Hn. H. H.

Courtauld, Major J. S.

Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J.

Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Fylde)

Craddock, Sir R. H.

Lloyd, G. W.

Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C.

Locker-Lampson, Comdr. O. S.

Stourton, Hon. J. J.

Cross, R. H.

Loftus, P. C.

Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.)

Crowder, J. F. E.

Lumley, Capt. L. R.

Strickland, Captain W. F.

Davidson, Rt. Hon. Sir J. C. C.

MacAndrew, Lt.-Col. Sir C. G.

Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- (N'thw'h)

Davies, Major G. F. (Yeovil)

McCorquodale, M. S.

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Davison, Sir W. H.

MacDonald, Rt. Hn. J. R. (Scot. U.)

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F.

De Chair, S. S.

McKie, J. H.

Tasker, Sir R. I.

De la Bère, R.

Macnamara, Capt. J. R. J.

Tate, Mavis C.

Denman, Hon. R. D.

Maitland, A.

Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

Denville, Alfred

Makins, Brig.-Gen. E.

Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.)

Dorman-Smith, Major R. H.

Manningham-Buller, Sir M.

Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)

Dower, Capt. A. V. G.

Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford)

Dugdale, Major T. L.

Maxwell, S. A.

Titchfield, Marquess of

Duggan, H. J.

Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

Tree, A. R. L. F.

Duncan, J. A. L.

Meller, Sir R. J. (Mitcham)

Tryon, Major Rt. Hon. G. C.

Dunglass, Lord

Mills, Sir F. (Leyton, E.)

Tufnell, Lieut.-Com. R. L.

Eden, Rt. Hon. A.

Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

Wallace, Captain Euan

Ward, Irene (Wallsend)

Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.)

Womersley, Sir W. J.

Warrender, Sir V.

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

Waterhouse, Captain C.

Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir A. T. (Hitchin)

Young, A. S. L. (Partick)

Wedderburn, H. J. S.

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G.

Wells, S. R.

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R.

Wise, A. R.

Sir George Penny and Lieut.-Colonel

Sir A. Lambert Ward.

NOES.

Acland, Rt. Hon. Sir F. Dyke

Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.)

Ritson, J.

Adams, D. (Consett)

Griffiths, G. A.(Hemsworth)

Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.)

Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

Rothschild, J. A. de

Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.)

Hardie, G. D.

Salter, Dr. A.

Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

Henderson, T.(Tradeston)

Seely, Sir H. M.

Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

Holdsworth, H.

Sexton, T. M.

Banfield, J. W.

Holland, A.

Shinwell, E.

Barnes, A. J.

Jagger, J.

Short, A.

Batey, J.

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Simpson, F. B.

Bellenger, F.

Kelly, W. T.

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (C'thn's)

Benson, G.

Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.

Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)

Broad, F. A.

Kirby, B. V.

Smith, Rt. Hon. H. B. Lees- (K'ly)

Brooke, W.

Lawson, J. J.

Smith, T. (Normanton)

Brown, C. (Mansfield)

Leslie, J. R.

Stephen, C.

Burke, W. A.

Logan, D. G.

Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)

Charleton, H. C.

Lunn, W.

Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

Cluse, W. S.

Macdonald, G. (Ince)

Thorne, W.

Cocks, F. S.

McGhee, H. G.

Thurtle, E.

Daggar, G.

MacNeill, Weir, L.

Tinker, J. J.

Dalton, H.

Mainwaring, W. H.

Viant, S. P.

Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill)

Markiew, E.

Walkden, A. G.

Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

Mathers, G.

Watkins, F. C.

Day, H.

Maxton, J.

Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. J.C.

Dobbie, W.

Messer, F.

White, H. Graham

Ede, J. C.

Montague, F.

Wilkinson, Ellen

Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty)

Morrison, R. C (Tottenham, N.)

Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)

Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H.

Naylor, T. E.

Williams, T. (Don Valley)

Gardner, B. W.

Paling, W.

Wilson, C. H.(Attercliffe)

George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

Parker, H. J. H.

George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey)

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

Green, W.H. (Deptford)

Potts, J.

Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Groves.

Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A.

Price, M. P.

Selection (Standing Committees)

Standing Committee C

Sir Henry Cautley reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Members from Standing Committee C: Brigadier-General Clifton Brown and Mr. Edward Strauss; and had appointed in substitution: Sir Henry Fildes and Mr. Remer.

Report to lie upon the Table.

Orders of the Day

Sugar Industry (Reorganisation) Bill

Order for Second Reading read.

4.0 p.m.

I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."

On Thursday last the Government brought forward their first long-term Bill for agriculture in this Parliament. There was only one criticism, that we should bring in employment measures rather than unemployment measures. To-day we bring forward the second long-term Bill, providing for employment and for production rather than for unemployment and non-production. We may not get a majority as high as the hundred to one majority on last week's Bill, but I am convinced that we shall find in the House support which, like the support of the country, cuts right across the limits of party controversies.

The history of sugar beet goes back a long way, and I do not propose to go into it at length to-day. The immediate history of this legislation dates from the Act of 1925, which was passed in accordance with the pledge of the previous Labour Government and it undertook the setting up of the beet sugar industry in this country on a large scale. Since that time the subject has been repeatedly and thoroughly thrashed out. In the two concluding years of the last Parliament no fewer than 14 days of Parliamentary time were spent on its discussion. There was a noteworthy advance towards agreement. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I will prove it. As recently as March, 1934, the Opposition put down a Motion for flat rejection. In 1935 the Opposition supported a continuance of the subsidy, but made conditions subject to which payments should be made. In the summer of that year widespread agitation took place in the country in favour of the continuance of the subsidy, and many prominent members of the Labour party took part. Finally, at the Labour Party Conference in October, 1935, the following proceedings are reported, and for greater accuracy I have got them from the "Daily Herald":

On both of the main decisions, reorganisation and continuance of the subsidy, I hope to have the support of the House this afternoon. The economies proposed are drastic and the reorganisation is far-reaching. The economies are necessary if we are to justify the continuance of the scheme. They are possible because of the great advance that the industry has made. The cost of manufacturing sugar beet, for instance, has gone down from 31s. 6d. a ton in 1924–25 to 11s. 11d. per ton in 1933–34. The covenanted 10 years period is now over. It has, moreover, been twice extended. Therefore the Government can reasonably claim, I think, that a new situation has come about between the community and the sugar companies. The reorganisations are part of the economies, and briefly they are the amalgamation of the companies into one, the pooling of their fixed assets and the supervision of the new company's working and its relation to the importing refiners by a Sugar Commission. This enables us to reduce the assistance given per cwt. It has been reduced from 7s. 3d. a cwt. in 1934 to 5s. 8d. a cwt. in 1935, and, on a comparable basis to 4s. 9d. a cwt. in 1936. The direct charge is reduced from £4,429,000 in 1934–35 to £2,775,000 in 1935–36. That economy in the direct charge is also helped by the limitation of the quantity assisted, and that also is part of the Bill.

The Bill has involved months of close and intricate negotiation. I believe I can say without controversy that in these negotiations we have been able to proceed by agreement. At the moment I shall not attempt fully to go into the negotiations, although both to-day and on subsequent days I and the Parliamentary Secretary will be ready to give the fullest explanations possible. But I believe there is here no fundamental difference in the House on one first point: If the industry is to go on, then in some way the industry should be remodelled. As to the equity of the terms, or the details, I say that these are matters for consideration in Committee and at subsequent stages of the Bill, but that there should be reorganisation, and, roughly speaking, along these lines, as recommended by the Greene Committee there is general agreement. The main recommendations of the Greene Committee in this respect have stood the test of all the examinations to which they have been subjected since.

I come to the second question—should the industry go on, and, particularly, should it go on after the recommendation of the majority of the Greene Committee that the industry should be discontinued. I do not wish to ride off on the fact that there were a majority and a minority Report. It is true that there was a minority Report which, after the same exhaustive consideration as was given by the majority, recommended a continuance of the subsidy. Take the majority Report of Sir Wilfrid Greene and Sir Kenneth Lee alone, and you have on balance a fair and most weighty document. That Report concludes:

If the hon. Member will go back to the report in the "Daily Herald" of the Labour party Executive's decision he will see that their conclusion was that State assistance should be continued. I want to put the case which was put in the Greene Committee's Report, and to ask whether these conditions do not more and more begin to apply to other branches of food production in this country. In paragraph 38 the Greene Committee Report says:

In other agricultural products the same process is taking place. In 1925 and onward we took 27 per cent. of the world's wheat and flour exports. To-day we are taking 42 per cent. In 1925 we were taking 66 per cent. of the world's butter export. To-day we are taking 76 per cent. of the world's butter export. In 1925 onwards we were taking 64 per cent. of the world's beef and veal exports. To-day we are taking 82 per cent. I do not wish to go into these figures in detail, but hon. Members opposite who have studied the provision question know how the figures for butter export to this country, and for butter consumption here, are mounting. It is not merely a question of a greater percentage of the world's trade, but of a greater gross weight of many of the products which are being exported to our shores.

They are in comparable figures. I cannot say for the moment whether—[ Interruption ]—I said that they are in comparable figures. That is a perfectly fair statistical answer. The picture drawn in the Greene Report of countries working upon an internal higher price market, and putting their surplus on the small remaining free market, altogether rules out the old conception of a world market, with free play of competition and with an economic price remunerative to producers in that particular market. We are dealing now with a new situation in this country, which has for long been the very centre of the world's market and is becoming the world market itself. An enormous amount of agricultural production is sold cheaper here than in its country of origin, and if the average producer here is to be asked not only to meet but to surpass the most exceptional producers of the world, that doctrine, I say frankly, is impossible.

It was not I, but a Labour spokesman, who said in this House in June last:

Our objectives must be: good and cheap food, and a decent living for the people on the land. Because of our first objective, that of food not only good but cheap, we have rejected the solution taken by so many countries, of an agricultural tariff raised to a point which will enable the average grower to produce at his own price. We wish to use the world's surplus, and we wish to admit rather than to dam up the world's flow of trade. I think what holds the field is the principle of some kind of deficiency payment whereby we admit world goods while we do not ask our producers to descend below the lowest world level or to surrender their employment. These general conclusions meet, I think, the views not of only one party or of only one sphere of thought. I shall be willing to argue it at length, and we shall have to do so in the many debates which lie before us. I want, however, to show at the outset that the Government are not pursuing a policy of thoughtlessly lavishing out the taxpayers' money.

Why this crop? But for this crop, the east of England would be another distressed area to-day. It is surely preferable to stop an area passing into a condition of depression than to allow it to fall into that condition and, after the breaking of the morale of everybody in the area, slowly and painfully to pull it out of that condition again. Apart from the east of England, the rest of England's agriculture would be correspondingly depressed. Beet sugar concerns not only the east of England, but is spread far and wide. It spreads to Scotland also, where special conditions are now in force, and we shall certainly sympathetically consider the conditions there. I do not wish to go at length into the position of areas outside those which are mainly affected. Eastern England is not only far more prosperous to-day than it otherwise would have been but, according to a newspaper so little addicted to beet sugar subsidies as the "Manchester Guardian," on 31st January, in its Commercial Supplement, the fate of at least 1,000,000, and probably nearly 2,000,000 arable acres in England hang upon the fate of this Bill.

It is not only a question of sugar beet but of the root crop on which the new agriculture of England long ago was founded and carried through. We have no poet yet to commemorate the introduction of the sugar beet in the way in which Alexander Pope commemorated the introduction of the other great root crop, the turnip. It is worth while to-day remembering that the question of root crops in England goes back to a distant time, and that it was Alexander Pope who said:

Hundreds of thousands of men. There are 800,000 men employed in agriculture in this country, and the repercussions of the extinction of a crop covering 300,000 or 400,000 acres of arable soil would affect every agriculturist in this country to a greater or less degree. Further, the adoption of the alternative crop which is recommended, but not specified, in the Greene Committee's report, would deeply affect many scores of thousands of agricultural labourers or of small agricultural producers. Suppose the great arable acreages of the eastern counties were converted to barley. Does anyone suggest that the market for barley is so prosperous that it can absorb without difficulty the produce of the 90,000 acres which, in 1924, were additional in the eastern counties of Great Britain? Some people speak of vegetables. Are not the people in the Vale of Evesham gravely troubled about the big men who are making inroads into their staple crops? Just as every portion of agriculture is affected by the produce of the arable acres upon which this crop is grown, so every portion would be immediately affected if those arable acreages were to be thrown out of employment or put to some other crop. There is no other crop, now or immediately, to which those acres can turn.

I do not wish to go at length into the question of the root crop of the eastern counties, but we all know in practice how necessary the root crop is in those lands and how indispensable and vitally necessary it is to plough land. You must have something which will tear up the soil, and you need to have a cleaning crop which will make fallow not only a matter of cleaning but of production. If it is not carried on this crop, it will have to be carried on some other crop. To-day, for all kinds of internal and external reasons, we cannot allow land to go out of cultivation. Voltaire long ago said:

He was a man who, after a long experience of cities, decided that sanity was only to be found in agriculture, and he recommended it to all men.

In this, the first agricultural Debate in the new Parliament and in the new reign, I want the House to decide on its objectives. I say again that they should be good and and cheap food for our people and a decent living for the men on the land. We shall hear much in this Debate about the interests of the consumer. I see the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillsborough (Mr. A. V. Alexander) present, and I understand that he will take part in the Debate. He constitutes himself the skilful and able watchdog of his organisation and he specially puts forward the interests of consumers. I fully sympathise with the desire to maintain the interests of the consumers, but their real interest is not in the organisation but in the supply of the product. Committees are set up to see that the customers get the stuff. Let us put it to that test. The price of sugar in 1930 was 2¾d. per lb.; in 1931 it was 2½d., and by 1934 it had fallen to 2¼d. It is 2¼d. to-day. That was coincident with the expansion in the production of sugar in this country.

Take the other comparison, that with foreign countries. Sugar that costs 2¼d. here costs 5¾d. in Czechoslovakia, which is a great sugar producing country. If someone says, "Oh, but Czechoslovakia is a beet-sugar producing country, where normally the price of sugar would be higher if they relied entirely upon beet-sugar," I will turn to Holland, the owner of Java, the greatest cane sugar island in the world. Sugar costs 7d. per lb. in Holland. Sugar is 3¼d. in Switzerland, 2½d. in Sweden, 3d. in Canada and 3¼d. in Australia—another great cane sugar producer. Of the 18 countries surveyed by the International Labour Office, there is only one country—Denmark—in which sugar is cheaper than in Great Britain, and in eight of these countries the sugar price is double and more. That is the consumer's square deal. I do not think there is more definite evidence to be given than the fall in the price of sugar. I do not think any more general and definite evidence of a square deal for the consumer could be given, and this evidence altogether transcends the arguments which will be put forward that this Bill, in some way or another, militates against the interests of the ordinary retail consumers.

If that be the case, and if those are the objectives, let us see whether the Bill which we have the honour to lay before the House is, in fact, a businesslike and useful Measure. We have printed the Sugar Industry Reorganisation Bill and also an explanatory memorandum in the form of a White Paper, which gives notes on the Clauses. It is not our desire to burke any of the great questions which have been raised. We have set out the matter fully, so that everything can be challenged—not only the Bill but our interpretation of it—and consequently I will go through the Bill as far as possible in a general way.

The purposes of the Bill, in the first place, are the setting up of a single Corporation in lieu of the many factories which are now producing sugar, and the surveyance of it by a Sugar Commission. Let me deal first with the Sugar Commission. Clause 1 sets up the Sugar Commission and Clause 2 provides for its expenses. The Commission is not to be in any way the servant of the sugar industry, and its expenses are therefore to be found by this House, in order to ensure that it shall be a free, judicial and impartial body. I hope those who have criticised other organisations in this respect will see that here we have done our best to meet the point that the producers are too closely interested in the running of these schemes and that not enough attention is given to other interests. The Sugar Commission is specially enjoined to keep under review not merely the growing, manufacture, refining and marketing of sugar, but also the consumption; and I hope that this will go some way to meet the objections of the opposition that the consumers' interests are not sufficiently borne in mind.

Clause 3 provides for the amalgamation of the beet sugar manufacturing com- panies into a single Corporation by the name of the British Sugar Corporation, Limited. That amalgamation may be effected either voluntarily in accordance with arrangements approved by the Minister with the consent of the Treasury, or, if amalgamation has not been completed within a reasonable period after the passing of the Bill, in accordance with a scheme prepared by the Sugar Commission and confirmed by order of the Minister made with a like consent.

A desire has been expressed for further information lest some injustice may be done to the companies under those powers. As I said in my opening remarks, the covenanted period of 10 years has expired. That covenanted period has twice been extended, so that no one can say that the bargain under which the money was originally invested has not been fully kept. But it is now a question as to whether the subsidy should be continued or discontinued. If it be discontinued, clearly those responsible for the factories will have no ground for complaint, for it was clearly stated in the Act of 1925 that the subsidy was for a 10-year period and that only. Twice, in extending the Act, it was made clear that the extensions were merely temporary and did not give any claim for a continuance of the subsidy. There are those who say that in any case we are now about to take over and buy these companies, and that therefore the conditions under which they are taken over and bought are of very great concern, not merely now but possibly in other analogous cases. I agree that the conditions are a matter of very great concern, but I do not think it can be said that there may possibly be an analogy with other cases. The present case is not analogous with other oases and has practically no precedents. The industry was brought into existence by votes of money from this House, and I think that can be said of no other industry in this country.

I would lay down the general principle that in taking over anything it would not be reasonable for a claim for compensation to be founded upon moneys which have been Voted by this House on a terminable contract. I think that would meet with general agreement. I think it would also be generally agreed that if the community is to take over a going concern, it should take it over as a going concern and not as scrap. I hope there will be no necessity for discussing this matter any further, because I hope there will be agreement on the terms upon which this amalgamation is to take place. If there were no agreement, however, it has been said that there should be an appeal to the courts; but even if there were an appeal to the courts, it would need to be founded upon some principle which would have to be laid down, since the courts would certainly ask what were the principles. I believe those principles would have to be laid down in Parliament before the appeal could proceed. I would, however, ask the House to think twice before it attempts to define those conditions in the terms of a Statute. I would say that a preferable solution, if no agreement were arrived at and the Minister had then to contemplate proceeding in accordance with a scheme prepared by the Commission and confirmed by order of the Minister, would be that I should undertake, before the House parted with the Bill, to lay before it, in the form of a Memorandum or White Paper, the sort of scheme I would have in mind. The House would then not have to vote blindly for the handing over of these great powers to the Minister of the day, and if any amendments had to be made in the Bill, I should naturally be willing to consider those amendments. Let us hope, however, that there will be agreement.

May we take it from what the right hon. Gentleman has said that no agreement has already been made with regard to the transfer?

No agreement has been made. The matter is now under negotiation. It would clearly be improper for those concerned to come to any prior agreement when the matter depends upon the discussions and votes of this House. The whole matter hangs on the decision of this House. It is for that reason that I hope we shall be able to have the Second Reading and the various stages of the Financial Resolution this week.

I should take up too much of the House's time if I were to go through the 30 Clauses and six Schedules of this Bill before resuming my seat. I wish only to give a general impression of the principles upon which we have been proceed- ing and to draw attention to one or two of the salient points. While I am speaking of the functions of the companies, I would not like to leave out of account the position of the agriculturists, for, after all, they are the persons whom the House had primarily in mind in calling this industry into existence, and in continuing it, I hope, as a result of the Debate which has now started.

I would particularly call attention to Clause 5, which deals with the functions of the Corporation regarding the purchase of home-grown sugar beet, and which might be described as the growers' charter, because it brings in the Commission as one of the bodies the consent of which has to be obtained in making arrangements between the Corporation and the growers of sugar beet. We have had complaints in respect of other forms of agricultural production that there was not enough supervision of the terms finally entered into between the producers and the processors. Clause 5 states that the Corporation must enter into contracts for the purchase of homegrown sugar beet upon terms and conditions agreed, after consultation with the Sugar Commission, between the Corporation and a Sugar Beet Marketing Board or other body representative of the growers of sugar beet, or, failing agreement, upon terms and conditions determined by the Commission. This will deal with the many knotty points which inevitably arise under these conditions. There are other Clauses dealing with the position of the growers to which I shall refer in a few moments.

Clause 6 deals with the production and marketing of white sugar, Clause 7 with the registering of refiners, and Clause 8 with a sugar refining agreement—all highly technical matters which can best be explained during the Committee stage, although, of course, we should be prepared to answer questions regarding them in the winding-up speech. With regard to the financial provisions, a considerable change has been made in the conditions for the receipt of assistance. Clause 12 indicates the duty of the Corporation to run itself on proper businesslike lines and to have reserves, and Clause 13 empowers the Minister to withhold assistance, thus ensuring that his advice is not entirely neglected. Clause 15 makes arrangements by which there is a spreadover.

Clause 14 deals with the method by which the rate of assistance in each year will be calculated, but time passes, and I am not anxious to go through every detail of that. I have given the House a rough calculation of the effective rates of assistance, and the actual monies to be found by this House are below those which have recently been found. I shall deal with the details as to how that has been brought about when occasion arises. I wanted to draw attention to Clause 15, which provides for the making of certain arrangements in the event of short crops, and for the terms on which that should be done. It is a matter of very great importance to the grower that it has been found possible to make that provision, and I hope very much that it will prove satisfactory in its working. Clause 17 relates to the duty of the Commission to report as to rates of Excise and so on, and covers the important advisory and quasi -executive functions which are left to the Commission, this body of independent persons appointed by the Minister and paid for out of moneys provided by this House. Clause 18 deals with the wages of persons employed by the Corporation. Clause 19 deals with schemes as to research and education, and will enable much more money to be found for these important obects than has been possible previously. Clause 20 is a most important Clause, dealing with schemes as to the licensing of registered refiners. No doubt there will be a great deal of discussion on that point, and I shall be willing to defend the Clause line by line and point by point when that discussion arises, because we have done our utmost to meet all possible objections that might be brought against any scheme of the kind. Our intention to take powers to set up such a scheme if necessary was, of course, stated in our White Paper in July, and it remains part of the Government policy.

Would the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to clear the air on one point which is giving rise to considerable concern in Scotland? It is as to whether there is any intention of bringing in a licensing system for factories. In other words, what guarantee have the growers in Scotland that a factory will remain in Scotland?

The licensing scheme has nothing whatever to do with that, and will not in any way prejudice the position. The danger to the growers in Scotland is far more that the remuneration should be so low that the acreage would not be maintained and the throughput could not be kept up, with the consequence that the factory would go out of operation. Until the corporation have entered upon their investigations on the matters within their scope, it is not possible to enter into any special commitments on their behalf, but the Ministers concerned are fully seized of the importance to sugar-beet growers in Scotland, and to Scottish agriculture generally, of the maintenance of beet growing in Scotland at the present time, and I can give my hon. Friend this pledge, that the position of the Scottish grower will be fully and sympathetically considered when the arrangements for subsequent years are being worked out. The contracts for 1936 are virtually agreed upon between the growers and the factory representatives acting on behalf of the proposed corporation, but, of course, firm contracts cannot be entered into until the corporation is formed. Forms of contract will, however, be offered to growers, and I hope they will be sent out by the factories in the course of a few days, if the House gives, as I hope it will, a Second Reading to the Bill and passes the Financial Resolution.

These being our objectives, I ask the House to accede to the Second Reading of the Bill. The machinery is admittedly intricate, and intricate it must be when we are attacking these new problems. The intricacy of long-term solutions of these problems is the reason why, in other very important matters, we have not proceeded at once to full-blown planning, but have desired to allow the situation to clear and the producers and processers concerned to think the matter over. But I say that the maintenance of this great body of employers and workers, and the maintenance in production of these hundreds of thousands of acres, are objectives which are not unworthy of the consideration of this House. The ploughed land, the growing surface of our soil, are matters which are of interest to all of us, and the maintenance of which is well worth consideration and expenditure. I ask the House to say that it sympathises with these objectives, and I hope also that it will agree that the machinery which we propose is a reasonable and businesslike machinery for securing them.

4.52 p.m.

I beg to move, to leave out from "That'" to the end of the Question, and to add instead thereof:

The right hon. Gentleman has given us a fairly good, wise and statesmanlike dissertatin on agriculture, with all its ills and ailments, and he concluded by reviewing the contents of the Measure. I should like to suggest that this Bill ought to be called the Sugar Industry Perpetual Subsidy and Monopoly Bill, for that actually is what the Bill provides. This, as the Minister has truly stated, is no new question; it has been debated in this House more or less ad nauseam; and, the more one sees of it, the less one likes it. To-day, however, we have one consolation. If this Bill secures a Second Reading and passes through its remaining stages, all that we shall have to concern ourselves with will be affirming Orders, revoking Orders and amending Orders, granting licences, fixing selling quotas, making inquiries, annual determinations and mathematical calculations, while the Chancellor of the Exchequer will be fixing reasonable profits annually, and all such odds and ends as that. The 39,800 farmers, the factory owners and the sugar refiners will be able to "sit pretty," for their "reasonable profits" under Clause 14 will be determined for them annually, and they will have no further worry.

Whenever I listen to the right hon. Gentleman, I cannot help both admiring and sympathising with his sagacity. I remember that Lord Halifax, when he was Minister of Agriculture in 1925, stated at that Box that he had adopted a child. He fed the baby very well at the expense of the taxpayer. The right hon. Gentleman has now been holding the baby since 1931. He has been holding the baby during its slimming period. He has wearied of it, and wants to plant it in an institution, where it will be a perpetual monument of warning to would-be godfathers in future. In so doing he is, of course, planting a permanent responsibility upon the taxpayers of this country. [ interruption. ] An hon. Member states that it was our baby. I do not want to enter into an argument with him, but since the right hon. Gentleman has become the godfather of agriculture he has adopted almost every known and unknown expedient as a means of restoring its solvency.

I think it was the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) who said that the Socialist party wanted to nationalise every lost cause. The right hon. Gentleman has done everything but nationalisation, including pauperisation, with a degree of success which has scarcely been consistent with his great efforts. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) on one occasion, I believe, referred to an hon. Member as a boneless wonder. Far be it from me to suggest that the Minister of Agriculture is unable to express his feelings, but he does seem in one respect to be like a dumb elocutionist who is unable to voice his feelings. But he can make magnificent gestures. He has been doing so for four years, and the last one is perhaps one of the worst that he has made. What, after all, is his latest production? I should describe it as a refined mixture of subsidised, nationalised, monopolised, sugar and Treasury finance. If one really wants to know the full meaning of it, one must wade through the 33 Clauses and six Schedules of the Bill. It is true that the right hon. Gentleman has given us an explanatory memorandum, which, it is to be presumed, tells us all about it. Let us look at page 5 of this explanatory memorandum, and see how clear and succinct is the wording: the shareholders. The right hon. Gentleman skated very delicately over one or two of the major points, and it will be as well if the House is brought down to the financial facts. As soon as the Commission is established in accordance with Clause 1, and is given officers, servants, technicians and the rest in accordance with Clause 2, under Clause 3 the Corporation is to be established to carry through amalgamations and so forth; but under the terms of the Bill so far as we know them, and so far as we are able to unravel the clear statement in the explanatory memorandum, the direct subsidy for 1936 will cost the Treasury £2,750,000. Excise rebate will perhaps bring the total to £6,000,000.

I am not going to enter into a debate as to how much the farmers receive as such, but it is perfectly true to say that the Treasury will forfeit and will provide in hard cash somewhere round about £6,000,000 this year. I do not say it is too much and I do not say it is too little, but if we take the right hon. Gentleman's own figures, there are 39,800 farmers, large and small, producing beet. The committee who examined the question declared that, full time and part time, there were approximately, on the fields and in the factories, 40,000 employés. What does that mean? £6,000,000 divided by 40,000 workers indicates that the Treasury, one way or another, will be providing £3 per week for every person who is found employment producing sugar-beet or refining sugar. If that is an economic proposition that the House ought to face in perpetuity, I leave it for the House itself to determine. If we include the farmers as well as the workers, making 80,000 in all, we still provide them with £75 per annum per person, more than is obtained for a week's wage in two agricultural counties in Wales at this moment. If hon. Members appreciate that, and the further fact that the Government are guaranteeing £1,000,000 for debentures and putting aside £500,000 to be going on with to provide compensation to the corporation if the farmers fail to provide the requisite tonnage of beet, to provide compensation for the farmers should the season be a bad one and the output not what they thought it might be, they will agree with me that the Bill is calculated to make the industry safe for all those financially interested in it.

I regard this as a most extraordinary Measure. The right hon. Gentleman mentioned the Labour Party Conference, and I thank him for his generous advertisement of the "Daily Herald," a really decent paper which I am glad to know he reads regularly. The Labour Party Conference took a decision on sugar-beet which I will refer to later. If the right hon. Gentleman had given the whole of the decision that was reached by the party I should have had no need to return to it. What does past experience show? Nearly £50,000,000 has been given or forfeited by the Treasury to establish this youthful industry, an industry which the Greene Committee said has no prospect of ever becoming self-supporting. The "Economist," not the "Daily Herald," said:

Would the hon. Gentleman like to hear the words of the Labour candidate for the South-West Norfolk division. He said:

"The Government has not yet introduced its legislation to make sugar beet growing a permanent part of our agriculture. This will have to be one of the first jobs in the new Parliament."

The right hon. Gentleman is too old a hand in the House to expect to be allowed to get away so easily. The direct question that I put to him was, as distinct from allowing the industry a progressively diminishing subsidy to reorganise itself in any way it desires, does he feel justified in recommending and advising the House to grant a perpetual subsidy for the growing of sugar beet and a perpetual reason able profit to a corporation, particularly a corporation which has exploited the sugar beet subsidy during the last 10 or 11 years? After all, to whom and for whom are we establishing this monopoly? A good deal has been said about holders of foreign capital, Dutchmen and the rest. As far as I have been able to look into the accounts, the British holder in sugar beet factories has been as voracious as the Dutchmen or anyone else and, after what we have witnessed, it seems to me that these super-patriots who now are to be guaranteed profits until the crack of doom are the last persons to whom this House ought to concede advantages. The Greene Committee said that, with a capital of less than £6,000,000, in 10 years they have had a gross trading margin of over £11,000,000, every penny of which was public money, and yet these are the same people who, a part from the activities of the Commission, are going to be allowed to carry on the good work and to enjoy a share of public money and the reasonable profit that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is going to provide for them annually. In our mining areas if workers appropriate three-pennyworth of coal they are sent to gaol for a month. The super-patriots who rob the public purse are to be compensated in perpetuity. That at least justifies the first part of the Amendment, that

Our third proposal is that, as long as public funds are to be provided for the purpose of maintaining either an infantile or an ancient industry, that industry ought to be brought under national ownership and control. If the right hon. Gentleman had quoted in full the Labour Party Conference resolution he would have quoted that in any scheme of reorganisation, so long as public funds are being made available for the carrying on of an industry or service, it ought to be under national ownership and national control and not left in the hands of those who have exploited the situation in the past. After all, as the right hon. Gentleman said, the factories are absolutely useless without a subsidy. They are mere shells, they are worthless. But the right hon. Gentleman is not merely going to clothe them financially. He is going to give them a permanent call upon the Treasury for what the Treasury will regard as reasonable profits. It seems to me that the Sugar Commission should render a very real service, and under Schedule I it would be just as easy to make a transfer to the nation as it would be to produce amalgamation proposals. The right hon. Gentleman, however, prefers this cumbersome method because he, like hon. Members opposite, believes that no industry and no service ought to be carried on unless someone is going to make a good thing out of it. Why should the right hon. Gentleman establish the Sugar Commission? Merely to act as gamekeepers against the poacher—this Corporation. Surely if ever a case could be made out for a nationally owned and controlled service this is it.

I really cannot understand why the right hon. Gentleman should have this highly complexed comprehensive piece of machinery to guarantee profits in perpetuity to someone merely because—this is his only argument—his object is to help agriculture. If that is the object and the purpose, why is it necessary to have intermediaries whom he cannot trust, whom, on the basis of their past activities, when they exploited and robbed the public purse, he cannot trust any longer? He, therefore, set up the Sugar Commission to take care of the Sugar Corporation. I really believe that this House ought not to be discussing a Bill of this description if they really want only to help agriculture to help itself. It is because of that fact that our major opposition is levelled against the Bill. We shall have the Corporation submitting a scheme to the Commission and the Commission submitting a scheme to the Minister and the Minister submitting a scheme to the Treasury. There will be inquiries at every stage. These comings and goings will be almost perpetual, and it is all designed apparently to make the industry safe for a body of people who are not really deserving of any consideration at all.

Because the right hon. Gentleman will not do what he was invited to do by the Greene Committee, he is devoting Clauses 7, 8, 9 and 20 to the purpose of registering refiners, preparing refinery agreements and allocating quotas. This is another result of the subsidy. We have in the country are fining capacity of 2,200,000 tons. Our annual consumption of sugar is 1,900,000 tons. But the moment public money is made available for beet factories, our capacity for refining is increased by 1,200,000 tons annually. So now we have a capacity of 3,400,000 tons. The factories became a menace to the refiners, but the Chancellor of the Exchequer came to the rescue of the refiners in 1928. He granted them a differential duty and made it possible for them, despite the competition of the sugar beet factories, to do a lot for themselves and to prevent the sugar beet factory owners from refining the sugar which they actually received from the farmers in this country. But it did not matter very much to the factory owners whether they refined half a million tons or a quarter of a million tons, because they knew that a bountiful Treasury would always provide them with sufficient funds to enable them to carry on their business at a good profit. So in 1928 we found that, while the beet factories refined 79 per cent. of their output, as a result of the differential duty in 1928,they onlyrefined40per cent. of theiroutputin1934. The refiners have their fingers in the pie, and have made a fairly good thing out of their power to extract funds indirectly from the public purse. I was not at all surprised in January,1935, to note that Tate and Lyle, the virtual refining monopolists, made a maximum profit of £1,200,000.

The Minister apparently has so much confidence in the refiners of this country that there is another recommendation of the Greene Committee that he turns down. In paragraph 22 of the Sugar Policy Proposals published in 1935 he declares: Clause, because he himself said in 1934 that

Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that the piece rates given by the sugar beet farmer enable the labourer to earn at least a 1s. a day more than the standard rate?

No, but I have cases here which I can quote where beet growers have sent to the Employment Exchanges for workers and have fixed a price of 4½d. for a certain function, and it is a case, as far as the worker is concerned, of taking it or leaving it. There is nobody available to arrange a price for him. I suppose that in agricultural areas there are good farmers as well as less good farmers. Some fix reasonable prices and some do not. We want a conciliation body to deal with the less good farmer, and to see that the worker will at least receive his share of the public money which is poured out so plentifully by the present Government. There is no reference in the Bill to compensation for displaced workmen. If the right hon. Gentleman had been as interested in the workers as he is in the farmers and factory owners he would have been able to find an example such as that which was followed in the Electricity Act. There is no guarantee, and there is no direct reference to consumers or workers.

Although, the ostensible object of the Bill is to provide work for some 30,000 or 40,000 men it is designed to make the industry safe for factory owners, refiners and farmers. The public side of it comes in very little. It creates a statutory monopoly and guarantees profits for all time, and, as a newspaper said to-day, it is a lamentable ending to a lamentable chapter. We shall vote against this Measure because we believe in sound finance, and it is because of own belief in sound finance and of the unsoundness of this scheme from top to bottom that we commend our Amendment to the notice, and, I hope, sympathy of Members sitting in all parts of the House.

5.27 p.m.

The hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) told us that one of the main reasons why he and his party object to this Bill and intend to vote against it is that the Socialist party believe in sound finance. I would say to the hon. Member and his friends, that if the Socialist party believe in sound finance it is certain that the country do not believe in the ideas of the Socialist party on sound finance. It is rather a remarkable fact that during the last six General Elections in this country, the Socialist party have put forward schemes of nationalisation every time and we have to-day the hon. Member endeavouring to hitch his arguments on nationalisation to the Bill for the maintenance of the sugar beet industry. But, however ardently the hon. Member may desire to preach the gospel on nationalisation, and however much he may chide my right hon. Friend the Minister for not having adopted the principles of nationalisation in regard to the sugar beet industry, it is certain that there is not any desire whatever among the great majority of the people of this country for any steps in that direction. Therefore, the hon. Member will have to do a lot of proselytising before he is able to win the necessary adherents to his point of view.

The hon. Member said that the Bill would afford a perpetual subsidy, and indeed he called it a "perpetual subsidy and monopoly Bill." Let me examine for a moment whether that is a correct designation to give to the Bill. The fact is simply that, the industry having become established in this country, the farmer having proved that he is competent and able to produce sugar beet, and factories having at least obtained a measurable degree of efficiency in converting the home-produced sugar beet into the finished article, one is entitled to ask, why is it necessary that the Government should interfere at all? The answer to that is simply that sugar is being produced nowhere in the world to-day except at a loss. That is the reason why it is necessary for the Government, pledged as they are to foster the home productive industry and to take every measure to provide employment, to do everything possible for the sustenance of the beet sugar industry.

I would ask the hon. Member for the Don Valley and his friends whether they would have preferred that this industry should die, or whether the Government, instead of introducing a complicated Bill, as we all agree it is, should have dealt with the whole matter directly by a tariff of so stringent a nature that it would have put up the price of sugar to the consumer to a point at which the home industry might have been able to pursue an economic course. I have not heard that the hon. Member has come to that conclusion. I assume from his speech that he is not whole-hearted in his opposition to this home productive industry. I listened very carefully to what he said, and I heard him advance no single major argument which would justify the shutting down of the industry of home-produced sugar beet in this country. The hon. Member had plenty of criticism of the Bill, of the refiners and of the farmers, but he did not produce any argument of first importance to prove that this industry should cease to exist, and that its ceasing to exist would be for the general betterment of the country as a whole.

I congratulate the Government on the introduction of the Bill, the aim of which is to put the industry on a basis which will support it during the period that the price of sugar in the world is below the cost of production. I should like to congratulate my right hon. Friend on the congency of the arguments he advanced as to why the Government did not accept the conclusions of the Majority Report of the Greene Committee. I would ask the House to consider the magnitude of the consumption with which we are dealing. The consumption of sugar in the United Kingdom, as we see from paragraphs 20 and 21 of the Majority Report, is 1,900,000 tons a year. Of that we have for several years past received on the average from foreign countries 700,000 tons, from Empire countries 700,000 tons, and from our own soil 500,000 tons. It is clear that there is not only scope for the production in this country of a part at least of this very important commodity of sugar, of which we consume such a vast amount. It is questionable whether the Government are not acting in rather an undesirable way in imposing any limitation on the production of sugar in this country.

The right hon. Gentleman said in regard to Clause 5 that he regarded this as the charter of the home sugar beet producing industry, in that it put the industry in a position to bargain with the processors. In so far as Clause 5 achieves that purpose it is very valuable, but I rgret that in that same Clause the acreage is to be restricted by the Sugar Commission and that the total amount of home-produced sugar which may be purchased from any particular producer is to be limited. There is a danger in that part of the Clause. Although it may be a Committee point, it is an important one, because we may get into an awkward situation. We have had a bad season this year. Farmers who have grown sugar beet this year have not found it a profitable crop. Owing to seasonal reasons the tonnage per acre has fallen below that obtained in the preceeding two or three years. Suppose we have a normal season next year or a season which may be rather more propitious than normal. Surely, it would not be unreasonable for the home producer of sugar to say: "I have had a poor crop this year owing to seasonal difficulties, and I hope that I may get a better crop next year, but when I go to sell my crop next year I shal find that the production of my acreage has been determined by the Commission and I shall not be allowed by law to sell more than a certain amount." If I have interpreted the Clause aright, the ultimate position will be that the sugar beet producing farmer may find himself with a considerable tonnage of sugar beet left on his hands which he is not able to dispose of.

I am pleased that my right hon. Friend shakes his head, and I am prepared to accept that gesture as indicating that I have not accurately interpreted the meaning of Clause 5. However, that point can be thrashed out in detail in Committee. I should like to turn to the question of the broad justification for the existence of the sugar-beet growing industry in this country. We find justification in almost every paragraph or in a great number of paragraphs of the Majority Report. I should like to quote one or two sentences. In paragraphs 216 and 217 the Majority Report pays tribute to the efficiency of the production. It says:

"There has undoubtedly been a substantial improvement in the efficiency of the growers of sugar-beet since1924."

The report also says:

"We are satisfied that a large part of the decline in costs must be attributed to increased efficiency."

Further, it says:

"We do not believe, and no witness has made the suggestion to us, that the limit in this process of improvement has been reached."

Those are the tributes paid to the producers of sugar-beet after a very searching examination. It is remarkable that this new and young industry has made enormous strides during the 11 years of its life, and there is no doubt, and nobody can gainsay it, not even the hon. Member for the Don Valley, that it has given a vast amount of employment on the farms and in the factories. Will the hon. Member deny that the production of something like 500,000 tons of beet-sugar in this country has not added to the wealth of the nation?

The hon. and gallant Member will not hear me say that it has not done so, but I would remind him that an enterprising individual is growing strawberries all the year. Is he not also adding to the wealth of the nation?

Certainly. Anyone who can manage to grow two strawberries where he only grew one before must be doing something to add to the general welfare of the body politic. The main reasons that I have advanced for the sustenance of this industry must be accepted in all quarters of the House. There are many other vital reasons. Here, I should like to quote a few lines from the Minority Report as to the national advantage of retaining the sugar-beet industry. The report says: of the employment given are alone sufficient justification for the continuance of the life of this branch of the agricultural industry.

Why are there so many enemies of the sugar beet industry? I have at various times heard arguments advanced, and they may be repeated later in the Debate. Some people say that we must not have a home sugar industry in this country because we shall damage the producers of sugar somewhere else in the Empire. The fact is that this country takes the whole supply of Empire sugar now. Therefore, the fact that we grow a little more for ourselves here is doing no injury to anyone in the Empire. That disposes of any such argument, if it should be brought forward. It is also said that cane sugar is far the most economical kind of sugar to grow, that its cost of production is cheaper than the cost of producing beet sugar. According to the report of the United Kingdom Sugar Industry Inquiry Committee, we see that that is a very doubtful statement. The statement is made in the report that even in the West Indies the sugar is being produced to sell to-day at a loss, owing to the fact that the costs of production are so much higher than they used to be. If we add, says the report, the cost of transport from the West Indies to this country or from other parts of the Empire, we shall find that by the time that sugar arrives in this country the cost will be pretty well the same amount as the cost of producing sugar at home. Therefore, on that point, there can be no argument for having no British industry. Again, some people say that cane sugar is inherently far better than beet sugar. If anyone advances that argument I would refer him to the report, which says that cane and sugar beet are biologically indistinguishable. It is clear, therefore, that many arguments which have been lightly put forward against the home sugar industry fall to the ground on examination.

It is rather interesting to examine the sources from which we obtain our foreign supplies of sugar. The major portion of imported foreign sugar comes from Cuba, San Domingo and Peru. If there are any lingering Free Traders in the House— there may be half a dozen sitting behind me—they might advance the argument that if we were to cease buying such large quantities of sugar from Cuba, San Domingo and Peru we should be doing something to injure our export trade. I have yet to learn that Cuba, San Domingo and Peru have anything but a very favourable trade balance with this country, and, therefore, if we were to grow more sugar beet in this country and buy less from them the argument cannot be advanced that we should be limiting the export trade of these countries which enjoy such a favourable trade balance with us at the present time. There has not yet been advanced in this Debate, nor can there be advanced, I think, any real sound reason against a continuance of the life of the sugar beet industry in this country.

There is one final consideration with which I must deal. Already the argument has been advanced that the cost to the State is too great. Let me examine it. What is the cost to the State? Again, I refer hon. Members to the figures in the Report, although they are not as clearly set out as some other items. But the cost of the Exchequer subsidy during the eleven years was £34,500,000, and apparently the amount which the State received back in the form of Excise from the industry was £16,000,000. In addition, the State received £2,000,000 in the form of Income Tax from the factories. Therefore the £34,500,000 Exchequer subsidy has to be reduced by £18,000,000, which leaves £16,500,000. [ Interruption. ] I knew that that would cause some merriment amongst some hon. Members, but I would ask them to read paragraph 26 of the Report, where they will find that the question of Excise and duty advantage, and the subsidy, are all inextricably interwoven. They will there get an explanation of what the real cost to the State has been. But let me suppose that the whole of the £34,500,000 had been spent without any deductions. I submit that the establishment of an industry of the size and importance of sugar beet would be justified every time and that every penny spent would have been well worth while.

Let me deal with one further point—I wonder whether it will be raised in the Debate—that the consumer has suffered as a result of the policy of successive Governments in regard to sugar beet production. The right hon. Gentleman has given us the figure of 2¼d. per lb. as the retail price obtaining in this country to-day. It is a remarkable fact, although I do not wish to draw too much from it, that ever since the sugar beet industry was established in this country the price of sugar to the consumer has fallen.

Is the hon. and gallant Member going to suggest that if we further increase the subsidy there will be a further reduction in the retail price?

I shall develop my argument in my own way. Let me draw the attention of the House to paragraph 157 of the Majority Report, which says that the price of sugar has fallen rapidly from the high level obtaining during the War—that was to be expected—and it goes on to say:

"And has declined almost continuously since1923."

Again, in paragraph 158 it says:

"The expenditure of the consumer on sugar is thus, in spite of the increased consumption, appreciably less to-day than in 1921."

Actually the cost of sugar per lb. in 1921 was 5.1d. and now it is only 2¼d. per lb. We are in the happy position that the consumers of this country during the last decade and more have had this great advantage, that if as taxpayers they have been called upon to find £34,500,000 by way of subsidy, they have saved that sum over and over again in the lower and ever falling price at which they have been able to purchase retail sugar. I believe that the Government are justified on every ground in preserving and prolonging the life of this important home industry. It may be that instead of a perpetual subsidy as the hon. Member for the Don Valley describes it, the time may come, earlier perhaps than some hon. Members think, when the general wholesale world price of sugar may rise to a point more commensurate with world costs of production, and if that occurred we shall find that there need be no perpetuation of the subsidy or any Government assistance at all. There is nothing in the Bill which makes the subsidy perpetual. The Government are saying, "Here we have a young and efficient industry capable of expansion if need be, and we do not intend that it shall be strangled. We consider it one of national value, but so long as world prices are so low that this young and efficient industry is not able to carry on on a strictly economic basis, we consider that there is reasonable justification for the State to assist it." That is the justification for the Bill, and I sincerely congratulate the Government on having brought it in.

5.55 p.m.

I was amused when I heard the Minister of Agriculture say that this was yet another issue upon which the last General Election was fought We have heard a good many issues upon which that election was fought, but we have only now discovered that it was fought on the issue of this Bill. All I can say is that if that was the case, the Government candidates in my part of the world must have been singularly ignorant of the issues of the election, because they do not appear to have heard of this particular and overmastering reason

No doubt there are constituencies in which this issue was important, but the right hon. Gentleman's expression was of far greater scope. He gave us to understand that he had received from the General Election a special mandate for this particular Bill. I am also in doubt as to what is his real attitude towards the Greene Committee. When they say something which seems to support the particular form of reorganisation which he is adopting in this Bill he is full of praise, but when it comes to the main proposition, on which he is turning them down flatly, he dismisses them very lightly. He says they were only considering sugar whereas he is considering agriculture. I am surprised he should say that. Of what is he complaining? Is he complaining of the terms of reference? If so, that is not the responsibility of the committee itself. If they were given terms of reference which did not enable them to consider the problem properly, it is the fault of those who gave the terms of reference. But that was not the meaning of the right hon. Gentleman. One gathered from his remarks that they had taken an unduly narrow view of their duties. If you read the report of the committee with care, as I have done, it simply is not true to say that they considered that they had to deal solely with sugar. There is page after page in which they set out fully, faithfully and fairly the general agricultural arguments in favour of the Bill, and other arguments which are not agricultural at all. It is perfectly true that they come to a decision against the arguments, but that is not the same thing as saying that they did not consider them. I regard the whole of the report, both Majority and Minority Reports, as the careful report of men who have conscientiously examined the whole problem in no narrow sense.

We come to a turning point to-day in the history of a great industrial experiment. It is an experiment which had cost £40,000,000 when the Greene Committee reported, and which has cost a great deal more now. We have to decide whether and how far the experiment is to continue. Let me say that I regard subsidies with suspicion but not with a closed mind. I am not saying that subsidies cannot in any circumstances be justified. I believe that a subsidy which is limited in scope, which sets going a private enterprise, may be justified, provided that the State knows its policy and is going to abide ruthlessly by its policy. The mischief is when the State gets caught up in a scheme of this kind and cannot get out. If the State could decide to limit its liability, set a certain maximum sum which it was prepared to advance, in the hope of establishing a self-supporting industry, and then get out at the end, there would be a great deal to be said for it. I ask that we should have some definite policy about subsidies, some principle, upon which we can decide whether they are right or wrong. It is rather interesting to go back to the beginning of this particular subsidy and to see what hopes were held out for it by those who introduced it 11 years ago. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Snowden, in July, 1924, said: which it required. Combined with those bright hopes there was also the hope that at the end of 10 years the subsidy might be removed altogether. I am not quoting that as a criticism of Lord Snowden or of those who were then supporting him. I am only pointing out the bright hopes which were entertained at that time. Does anybody now, except possibly the hon. and gallant Member who has just addressed the House, hope that within any reasonable period this industry is going to be self-supporting? The majority of the Greene Committee were quite certain that it would not be self-supporting within any period which one could reasonably consider. So that hope has gone. Does anybody say that as a result of these measures British agriculture has been revived and rural England restored. Clearly, those expressions are out of focus and have no relation to anything which has been achieved.

With regard to supplying a great part of the sugar which we require I suppose that what constitutes "a great part" is a matter of one's point of view. The amount, in fact, is I think about 25 per cent. according to the report and I should not have thought that 25 per cent. was to be regarded as a great part. Apparently it is to be considered the limit because the essence of the Bill is that it is closing down on any advance. It is not a Bill which leads one to consider the prospect of a bright future far different from what is going on at present. The Bill closes the path of advance. True, it gives an extension in time but it closes down the public assistance the basis of which is limited to a standard quantity of sugar. There are other restrictive proposals, and any who hoped that this scheme was going to add a great agricultural product to this country will be reminded by the Bill—lovers of Kipling will follow my reference—of the passage in "Puck of Pook's Hill" which describes how the young tribune took his cohort along the great Roman Road to the great wall. The road ended in a sort of cabin in the wall where somebody had scratched the word "Finis." This Bill has, in many respects, scratched "Finis" on the further prospects of advance of this industry.

I do not think that the Bill was the first announcement that progress had reached its limit. I find in the "Evening News" of 17th May last year announce- ments by three different beet sugar companies, namely, the English Beet Sugar Corporation, the Ely Beet Sugar Factory, Limited, and the Ipswich Beet Sugar Factory, Limited, of cash bonus distributions by each company—£300,000 for the first, I think the same amount for the second, and about £140,000 for the third. What I wish to call attention to is the reason for this distribution. It was made because, in the opinion of the intelligent gentlemen who governed those companies, there was no further prospect of any further factories being built. The result was that they did not know what to do with their reserves, and the object of the distribution was to return those reserves to the shareholders. I think they might have been returned to the Exchequer, considering the conditions under which they were accumulated. I do not propose to pursue that point, however, as it goes beyond the subject of the Bill. I only call attention to the fact that even at that time progress appeared to be closed.

Why have hopes of extension gone? There can be only one reason why people no longer hope that the industry can go on from supplying 25 per cent. to supplying 50 per cent. or even more. That is the experience of the 10 or 11 years during which we have been trying the system. If all the benefits of the Bill which are so very ably set out in the Minority Report of the Greene Committee were operating, if the Government really believed in all the benefits suggested by the hon. and gallant Member who spoke last, they would not be putting on all those limitations. They would be saying "This is a fine investment for the nation. We do not regret spending this £40,000,000. It is going to yield a hundred-fold and we shall go on and invest more and more." But they do not say so. They are acting very cautiously. They feel that they have been caught up in the machinery and they are trying to get out somehow. The reason for the Bill is the experience which they have had. I ask the Minister of Agriculture whether if he were back in 1924, in Lord Snowden's position, or in 1925, with all the knowledge that he possesses to-day and with the experience of the intervening years, he would have started this machinery? I very much doubt it. I take leave to think that nobody in such circumstances would do so.

There has been as always happens in such cases the growth of vested interests. They are genuine vested interests, and I am not throwing any slur or suspicion, of dishonesty upon them. They are vested interests of labour as well as of capital, and the Minister is reluctant to-face the tragic choice of a clean cut. I am not surprised. I should view it as. a great tragedy if I were in the same position, but I am bound to say that what the right hon. Gentleman is doing seems illogical. By the restrictive nature of this Measure he shows that he knows what an extravagance this whole scheme has been to the country. Yet he is continuing it indefinitely. I say "indefinitely" because the Financial Memorandum states that the assistance-is not limited in time, but only by the quantity of sugar—a standard quantity equal to 560,000 tons.

It would be a different thing if the Measure were one which, as the Amendment suggests, provided for successive reductions and letting the industry down lightly. Most of us would not want these people, whether they are concerned with capital or with labour, to be confronted with a sudden crisis. We would like to help them out. That was also the view of the Majority Report of the Greene Committee. I am not particularly in love with the scheme which they put forward but they did put forward a scheme for letting the industry down easily. The Bill, however, has nothing of the kind. It does not provide any means of getting out. It merely stabilises the damage, as far as it can, at a certain level and then continues that damage—because the taxpayer will have to pay. I cannot see any ultimate justification for it. It simply means that the Minister having been unable to get rid of this "old man of the sea," has taken him permanently on to the establishment and put him into a uniform and hopes that he will behave better in future.

The plea of justification which must appeal to all of us more than anything else is the plea with regard to employment. Anyone who has sat as I have done for eight years for a constituency which has long known unemployment must have enough imagination to feel for the unemployed in other industries and other parts of the country. I should feel it a terrible thing if a Bill were passed which would put an end to employment of any kind. I do not deny that the system which is culminating in this Bill has given employment to large numbers. But I suggest to hon. Members for East Anglian and other constituencies, with whom I sympathise, that on this matter they are probably thinking in terms of Bill Smith or Tom Jones whom they know and who has a job to-day but who might not have one to-morrow if the scheme were brought to an end. But the same tragic position would exist if those same men were being employed in digging holes and filling them up again. There would be the same tragic choice and all those members would feel compelled to support the continual digging of holes in order that the payment of wages might continue. It comes back to the old controversy about relief work. I have often advocated this or that avenue of employment and have been told from the other side of the House that what I was advocating was simply relief work and that we could not have that. I have been driven to deny that what I proposed was relief work but the general result of the discussion has always been to show that nobody of any party is prepared in theory to defend relief work, that is to say, work the only object of which is to provide wages.

If you set men to dig a trench, and if it is not to be regarded merely as relief work, you have to show that your trench leads somewhere and that it is part of some constructive scheme. In the same way, if you embark on large expenditure in order that a certain product may come into being which was not there before, it is necessary to show that it is of value in itself apart from the work devoted to bringing it into being. I cannot find that that has been done with regard to beet sugar. I have read with great care what the committee had to say on that subject. They find, definitely, that this product is useless apart from the value given to it by the subsidy. Before we had the subsidy, before the industry was started, was there any shortage of sugar in this country? I have not been able, to discover that there was any. There were abundant and cheap supplies, obtained to a considerable extent—I think nearly half—from our own Dominions. What we have done has been deliberately and artificially to put a dearer product in the place of a cheaper one.

I heard what the last speaker had to say about dearness and cheapness. The answer to him lies in the £40,000,000 that we have had to spend. That was building a bridge over a gap. If the difference had not been there that £40,000,000 would not have had to be provided. I come back to the most significant fact in all the statistics which have been provided for us. It is to be found in the table facing page 34 of the report which shows the total amount of State assistance to be £40,292,000 and the total cost of beet in the same period to be £40,321,000—practically the same figure. Then we are asked to admire the industry which has done so well. What industry would not have done well, especially any industry where the cost of the raw material is so large a proportion of the whole, when it had all that assistance given to it. The majority report points eut, and I do not think it can be denied, that, apart from the subsidy, all that has been done has been just to pay the cost of transport and nothing else. It is a fantastic experiment to engage in maintaining an industry in such circumstances. The report states: value of the crop, we find that there can be no justification for this extraordinary expenditure.

I know there are incidental advantages claimed. There is the inevitable wartime argument. The hon. and gallant Member who spoke last gave the impression, I am sure unintentionally, that the majority of the committee had been so struck with this wartime argument that they were greatly influenced by it. If he will read that part of the report again, he will find that they considered it indeed, but definitely turned it down, for reasons which they gave. There is also an argument about rotation of crops, which it would be impertinent on my part to attempt to enter into here. I will content myself with saying that it must not be taken for granted that that argument about crop rotation is all on one side, because the Majority Report definitely gave reasons, which may be good or bad, for thinking that the artificial maintenance of this industry may disturb the natural rotation of crops and actually do harm in that respect.

But I cannot believe that any of these incidental advantages weighed seriously either with the Government which introduced the subsidy, or with the Government now introducing this Bill. It is a question of the maintenance of employment, and we have to face the fact, on the findings of the majority of the Greene Committee, that employment is being maintained at a price which is quite ridiculous and absurd and which cannot be justified for an instant. I am not going into the question, supposing that the industry is to be maintained, whether the Minister is going the right way about it in order to carry it on. Arguments have come already from the hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams), with a great part of which I entirely agree, criticising the actual form of these proposals. What strikes me most about them is that, as far as I can make out—and it is not at all clear from the Bill—when the Corporation is set up it is to make some kind of bargain in taking over from the various companies which are set out in the First Schedule. It is to make its bargain with them by agreement if it can; if not, there is to be some kind of settlement between them.

It seems to me clear—I may be wrong, and I hope I shall be corrected if I am—that the end of that will probably be that the shareholders of the First Schedule companies will become holders in some form or another in the Corporation. I gather that that is what is anticipated, and that means at long last that those shareholders will still go on drawing profits, that they will be drawing dividends from profits that have never been earned, because the loss will go on. It is absurd to keep up the pretence that a loss is not being made. The taxpayers convert what would otherwise be an adverse balance into a credit balance, but it is really a loss, and on that there is going to be a distribution of profits.

I do not agree with hon. Members above the Gangway in their attitude to private enterprise, but there is private enterprise and private enterprise, and this is a form such as I have never contemplated as being justified. I am certainly not going to have the case in favour of private enterprise—and I believe it is a very strong case—judged by these proposals. I believe it is very hard to justify the suggestions that are here put forward. But I come back in the end and conclude with my main objection, that this is an utterly uneconomic proposal, and it seems to me that it is but another striking instance of the madness that has overtaken the world, the hopeless struggle for economic nationalism, self-sufficiency at all costs, even when it can be demonstrated to be a complete fallacy. To a policy of that kind, which we have heard denounced again and again as retarding the return to world prosperity, which we have heard denounced by the very people who in their practical politics contribute to it, as the Government are doing to-day—to a policy of that kind, I at any rate cannot give my support.

6.20 p.m.

The hon. Member who has just spoken has left us in doubt about whether, had he been Minister of Agriculture at this moment, he would have continued the beet sugar industry with State assistance or stopped it.

I said, quite fairly, that I would have been prepared to support a temporary Measure letting the industry down by degrees.

We now understand that the hon. Member does not intend, would not dare, to stop this industry, but, on the other hand, would be glad to continue it for an indefinite term of years.

Not for an indefinite term of years. I did not know I was so obscure as I appear to have been. When I say that there ought to be a definite series of steps taken before it ceases, that means that there must be a definite time when it must cease.

But the hon. Member did not say the number of years, and that is vital. The point is that he is not prepared at this moment to stop this industry. That I welcome, because it was not the view of his late chief, with whom sometimes one had modestly to cross swords. Sir Herbert Samuel, when he spoke from that place, would gladly have ended the industry there and then. Now we see a very welcome and marked improvement in the outlook of my hon. Friends opposite. I would like to deal with the hon. Member's points. If I may say so without offence, he is under a misapprehension. He used repeatedly words such as these: "No wonder this industry goes on, or is anxious to continue, with all that money given to it." That is a complete fallacy. It is not a case of "all that money given to it." There are three factors in the finance of this industry—a subsidy, an excise duty, and the loss of revenue due to the curtailment of foreign supplies of sugar. The hon. Gentleman adds all these together and says the total represents the sum paid to the industry. That is not true, and if the hon. Member would do me the honour of reading the OFFICIAL REPORT of the 27th June last, when I attempted to deal with this point, and the arguments I then adduced were not controverted—

No Liberal spoke after me on that date, so that could not have been the case. What are the facts? I do not want to repeat them now, but you do not use this argument when you talk about the motor industry, for instance. When you talk about the steel industry, you do not add this vast amount of money that you say is given to it because we do not import that much steel, because we manufacture in this country so many tens of thousands of motor cars a year. You do not say you should put that to the debit of the industry. Then why should you apply this absurd argument to sugar beet? Let my hon. Friend be fair. I dislike subsidies as much as he does, and I am prepared to speak even more strongly on the subject than is he. There are very few cases, in my opinion, where they can be justified, and I would gladly see the day when we were at an end of subsidies. I have said that repeatedly from this place. But a Government, whether a National, a Socialist, or a Liberal Government, is bound to face the facts of the situation as they are, and the facts at the present time are that here is a great industry established all over the country, including Scotland, and no Government dare, at this time of unemployment, take any steps that will harm that industry or that employment.

The hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) announced that he and his party would vote against this Measure. Very well, let us be quite clear what he means and what the effect of that action will be. Let the country understand precisely what the Labour party propose to do to-night. They are, proposing to vote against this Measure, and that means that, were their vote carried, they would be voting against the continued employment of some 50,000 people, voting against the continued use for that purpose, and, it may be, for any purpose, of some 400,000 acres of land. My hon. Friend opposite, I understand, was one of those who supported not very long ago a great scheme for adding to the agricultural population 500,000 new people, and I observe that here to-night he is prepared, not at once, but over a period of years, to put 50,000 of them out of work as a first step in that programme of regeneration. As for the hon. Member for Don Valley, I recollect during the Election a Socialist leaflet exhibited in my division, reading: "Socialism means increased employment on the land." A first step towards that appears to be to put 50,000 of those men on the dole; that is what the Labour party's Amendment means. In that Amendment, we have setout the arguments they advance, the reasons they offer, for being against this Measure. They start off by saying that these British Sugar (Subsidy) Acts have

The hon. Member for Don Valley made much of the fact that this industry was costing £3 per week for everybody employed in it, and that sounded pretty bad to me, but I was looking at the figures relating to the time when he and his friends introduced this business, and brought to life this child that was later adopted by the Minister of Agriculture. This child of their production cost the State at that time and for the first four years, not £3 a week per man, but almost £3 a day per man. What right have they to blame other people for a scheme which costs less than a quarter of the scheme which they introduced? The Opposition in their Amendment criticise the Bill because the Sugar Commission does not contain representatives of consumers and labour. That is an interesting criticism, and I think that the Commission would be improved with one or two representa- tives even of organised labour. I would be glad if the experts of the Labour party were themselves upon it. Who are the experts of the Opposition in agriculture? The two greatest experts, with the exception of those present, are Dr. Addison and Mr. George Dallas. What did Dr. Addison feel about this particular industry? I am afraid that something is happening in his absence, for the case that he made when he spoke from that bench not many months ago is not the case made by his followers to-day. When the cat is away the mice indeed begin to play on the Labour as well as on other benches. Speaking officially for the Labour party on 27th June, 1935, Dr. Addison said:

He is Secretary of the Agricultural Workers' Union in England and is on the Parliamentary Committee of the Labour party. He is their agricultural expert. He came to Cupar in my constituency and sat under my chairmanship at a meeting not many months ago to urge upon the people of Fife, and above all, his friends among the agricultural workers, that this industry ought to be continued. He was one of those who in my presence urged us to pass a resolution in favour of continuing the industry. If my hon. Friend opposite will listen to this other expert of the Labour party with reference to the question of digging holes and filling them up, he will find the answer to his problem. The date of the meeting was 23rd June, and Mr. Dallas said:

The Minister was good enough, in reply to a question of mine while he was speaking, to say that the Government would give careful and sympathetic consideration to the case of the beet sugar factory at Cupar in Scotland. I am a little concerned about it, however. As I read this Bill I find nothing in it to prevent the new corporation, which is bound to be composed to the extent of the majority of those representing English interests, because nearly all the factories are in England, in two or three years time, when the beneficient influence of the Minister of Agriculture is gone, deciding to close the Cupar factory. I want some better assurance than that which the Minister gave. I shall have great doubts of the wisdom of supporting the Bill unless I get some assurance, stronger than that which the Minister has given, that the interests of Scottish growers and farm workers and those who work in the factories are to be safeguarded. It may be that the time to raise that is in Committee, but I give the Minister this notice of my concern, which is shared by large numbers of my fellow countrymen. This Bill is the result of long consideration. It is an attempt to get over the question of excess profits and the difficulties which the Minister mentioned. We have often criticised the fact that individual firms have been enabled to reap these enormous profits out of public funds. It could never be justified, and this Bill is an attempt to overcome that difficulty. It is an attempt, too, to maintain a vital part of agriculture. With all my suspicions of subsidies, therefore, I am bound as a practical man to support the Bill.

6.41 p.m.

Before I proceed to examine the policy in the Bill, it is essential that the argument that a reduction in the price of sugar is due to the policy of subsidies should be examined. The Minister advanced that argument. The hon. and gallant Member for Maldon (Sir E. Ruggles-Brise) also sustained it, and the hon. Member for East Fife (Mr. H. Stewart) has repeated it in a quotation from a colleague of mine. As a matter of fact, the price of sugar has always been cheap in this country, with the exception of the War period and the immediate post-war period. Before the War the price of sugar varied between l¼d., l½d. and l¾d. We have always had plentiful supplies, and the attitude of the trade generally to sugar is to use it as a selling line and to make very little profit on it. The claim that the reduction in the price of sugar in recent years is due to the policy of subsidising homegrown beet is grotesque and cannot be substantiated. Fortunately, I have a publication in my hand circulated on 26th June, 1935, under the heading of "The Home Sugar Beet Defence Committee." I notice that the hon. and gallant Member for Maldon is on the committee of this organisation which is responsible for this publication. It is interesting now to note what they say in view of the reference to-day to price. On page 3, in heavy type, the question is asked:

The Minister of Agriculture has made out no case for this Bill. He is here once more in his role of advocate for doles from the public purse for wealthy investors in this country. I do not think we ought to be referred to later stages of the discussion of the Bill when important principles are raised which represent a very grave departure from our attitude towards business organisations. The Minister claimed that public opinion increasingly supports this policy. I suggest that public opinion increasingly opposes it, and that if, within our Parliamentary system, public opinion could register a decision on this issue it would be overwhelmingly against the proposal. All the users of sugar in this country—and the manufacturing users consume some 700,000 tons a year—are against this proposal; all the consumers' organisations are against it; and organised labour, after 10 years of experience, and having found that investors have done very well out of this scheme but that there are no proposals for the adequate defence of the wage standards of the workers, now see clearly the purpose of the scheme and are opposed to this proposal.

Let us deal with the history of recent developments. Whoever else has been inconsistent I think I can at least claim consistency in this matter. When, in December, 1924, the first Financial Resolution to promote this subsidy was introduced I opposed it and went into the Division Lobby against it. More than £40,000,000 of public money has since been spent on this industry, and it is as clear to-day as anything can be clear that we are pouring into an uneconomic industry vast sums of money which could be better used in other directions in the internal economy of the country. Now, as a defence of that policy, and to avoid parasitical influences which are at work trying to maintain this uneconomic subsidy, we are presented with a type of organisation which is vicious in the extreme. There could be only one justification for this policy, and that would be that there were large and overriding reasons of State for the payment of a sum of this character, but the Minister has not advanced a single reason why we should continue to pay this money to the sugar beet industry. If that justification could be advanced the attitude of this party would be clear. If it be essential for any industry to be maintained by public finance no private investor ought to make a profit out of it. If that is the position then the case for public ownership is clear and cannot be controverted. In that case the State should assume the full responsibility of seeing that the organisation created is public in its purpose, efficient in its administration and does not undermine the standards of the producer or the consumer.

If the Government were introducing reorganisation on those lines we should consider the advisability of supporting it, but we cannot support this Bill. In my view nothing in the whole history of this policy is more despicable than the exploitation of the labour position to which hon. Members opposite have descended. They know that they are not concerned with finding employment for the agricultural labourer. They know, as farmers and as business men, that if any workman's labour becomes un- economic they have not the slightest scruple in discharging him, and to come to this House and argue that the purpose of this policy is to be found in their sympathy with the agricultural labourer will not deceive anybody, at least not us on this side of the House.

A few days ago hon. Members had an opportunity of demonstrating their sympathy with the agricultural labourer. If they wanted to see this sum of £2,700,000 go to the advantage of the agricultural labourer, why did they not put in into the agricultural insurance fund and give agricultural workers a decent rate of benefit instead of the miserable rate which is embodied in the Unemployment Insurance (Agriculture) Bill? If they wanted to do something for the working classes, why did they not give this £2,700,000 towards maintenance grants for working-class children under the Education Bill? Let us contrast the present position with the attitude of the Conservative party in 1929 and 1931 when we on this side were endeavouring to maintain the rate of unemployment assistance through loans to the Unemployment Assistance Fund, on which interest was paid. Then a public agitation was carried on to withdraw those loans, in order to reduce the rates of unemployment assistance. That policy eventually reached fruition in the crisis of 1931. No, Sir, none of us on this side of the House is misled in any way by the expressions of sympathy from hon. Members opposite with the agricultural labourer.

Let me come to the financial interest which is really at the bottom of this Bill and the reasons for this reorganisation. In view of the increasing difficulty of finding an outlet for capital it is clear that financial interests want a new form of investment without any risks to themselves, with the whole of the risks carried by the State. In 1915 the preference subsidy amounted to 4s. per cwt. In 1919 that was increased to 6s. 3d. In 1922 the whole of the benefit reached the sum of 25s. 8d. In 1924 we had the present sugar beet subsidy, which in 10 years has cost the taxpayers over £40,000,000. Over the 10 years the average payment has amounted to 16s. 11d. for every cwt. of sugar produced, a greater payment than the cost per cwt. of sugar over the whole 10 years. I suggest that no collectivist or Socialist or other public experiment has been such a colossal failure or such an expensive proposition as this policy supported by the party opposite. With reference to a point put forward later in his speech by the hon. Member for East Fife, I do not think it shows any contradiction in our attitude of opposition to say that we should be in favour of a policy of tapering off this subsidy. However much one may be opposed to such an uneconomic policy one has to recognise that the livelihood of a number of persons is involved in it, though they themselves are not responsible for the policy but only the innocent victims of it. It is only reasonable, if the time arrives when that policy must be reversed, that the reversal should be made to fall with as little severity as possible upon the innocent victims. Therefore, I do not see that we are in any way inconsistent when we state that we should welcome the cessation of this subsidy if we add that a reasonable period should be allowed for "tapering off," so that the dislocation is not too severe or too inhuman.

With regard to the reorganisation proposals in the Bill, quite frankly I consider both the Sugar Commission and the Sugar Corporation to be frauds—public frauds. The functions of the Commission and the type of organisation that the factory Corporation represents show that the purpose is merely, through this Bill, to accomplish what the Government and the sugar interests failed to accomplish under the marketing scheme. Last year there was a proposal to create two corporations in this country, two water-tight monopolies under the provisions of the Marketing Acts. One was a monopoly of the inland beet sugar refineries under the Marketing Board, and the second the creation of another monopoly, the Port Refineries Board. Those two separate Boards, in fact, created a monopoly and came to an internal working agreement. Public opinion defeated that proposal, after a public inquiry, and yet the Minister has come here to-day to create the very type of organisation which public opinion condemned under the procedure of the Marketing Acts. Let me prove that statement.

On the face of it this Bill is supposed to cut out overlapping, waste and inefficient organisation, to create a composite organisation at a minimum of cost. One would assume that these factory groups are competing organisations and antagonistic. An examination of the shareholders and of the directors of the groups show that they are already inter-looked, they are already practically one company. Therefore, this Bill becomes a device not to bring together conflicting or antagonistic directors and shareholders, but a device merely to give them a statutory legal monopoly to exploit the sugar market of this country. Let us take the Tate and Lyle group. Those of us who have followed the history of sugar beet clearly remember the time when Sir Leonard Lyle was a Member of this House and stood up in his place and opposed the inauguration of this sugar subsidy scheme, but he never hid from the public or from this House what would happen. He made it clear that if Parliament should embark on such an atrocious proposition then, like a good business man, he meant to be in it and to share in the plunder, in "the swag," just as the hon. Member for East Fife admitted, in the last two minutes of his speech, which were much more interesting than the rest of it, that his main concern was a share in the swag which this Bill represents. Sir Leonard Lyle made it perfectly clear that if this preposterous policy were adopted then, as a good business man, he was going to "get his finger in the pie." Let us see how successfully he has accomplished that in the 10 years under review. The Tate and Lyle group are a very good firm; they operate almost within my division and they are a very good company indeed. Tate and Lyle have invested in the Shropshire Beet Sugar Company. The total capital of that company is £354,000, and Tate and Lyle have £230,000 of that. Tate and Lyle are interested in the United Sugar Company. The capital of that company is £300,000, and Tate and Lyle own £241,000.

We own £88,000. I was expecting that from the Minister, I obtained these figures with the object of getting that interjection. The Central Sugar Company has a capital of £175,000, and of that Tate and Lyle own £84,000. The Yorkshire Sugar Company has a capital of £196,000, and Tate and Lyle own £62,000 of it. The next group is even more interesting from the standpoint of analysis. I would describe this as the "Prudential-Dutch" group. The Prudential Insurance Company is the only large English shareholder in this group of companies; all the rest are Dutchmen, except that there are one or two English directors, one of whom faces this House and whom we all admire. The English Beet Sugar Company has a capital of £500,000, and the Prudential own £85,000, and practically the whole of the rest is owned by Dutchmen and foreign interests. The King's Lynn factory has a capital of £450,000, and the Prudential owns £40,000 of it.

I do not want to go through these figures further, because in view of the subsidy we are proposing to-day and that we have paid in the past, the profits of this group are more interesting than the shareholder interest. In 1927 this Dutch group made a profit of £321,000 on the English factory and paid a 20 per cent. dividend, tax free, so that the Exchequer cannot claim to have had the advantage of this profit. In 1928 they made a profit of £230,000 and paid a 20 per cent. dividend; in 1929, £103,000, dividend 20 per cent.; in 1930, £150,000, dividend 20 per cent.; and in 1931 £124,000, dividend 20 per cent. They have had the whole of their capital back, and now we are asked to pass a Bill further to encourage them. What right has a British Minister to ask the British taxpayer to advance a sum for an industry that is uneconomic, cannot be justified, and yet yields 20 per cent. profit to the shareholders out of public funds? It is an indefensible proposition.

Let me take the Ipswich Beet Sugar Factory. The chairman is the hon. and gallant Member for Rye (Sir G. Courthope) whose interest in this matter we have all appreciated. Again, if my information is correct—and if it is not correct I shall be only too pleased to withdraw it on the Floor of the House. One can never be sure that one's facts are absolutely accurate—in the seven years from 1927 to 1933 the profit on the Ipswich Beet Sugar Factory amounted to £571,000 and the dividends, tax free, were from 5 to 12½ per cent. The other two groups represented the Weir and MacAlpine interests. If you take the whole four together you have fifteen beet sugar factories in this country whose financial interests and directors are interlocked, and yet the Minister tells us that this Bill is for the purpose of reorganising them.

With regard to Clauses 8, 20 and 22, some of the most important Clauses in this Bill, the Minister refers us to debate in Standing Committee. He has advanced no reason why the refineries should be organised into a monopoly. We have here a case in which 15 beet sugar factories, working on a large public subsidy, and seven refinery groups, making 22 companies in all, are to have complete control over an important commodity in this country. This is a commodity enclosure Act. The British House of Commons is engaged in a type of legislation in which it was engaged many years ago when the commodity then was land, when the common lands were enclosed and access to them was denied to the majority of the people. We are all familiar with the evils that have grown from land monopoly, statutory ownership in land by Acts of Parliament similar to this, but in the range of commodities we have always retained the right to expend production. Any citizen or group of citizens has been able to enter into commodity production and expand it. From the standpoint from which I look at this economic problem, the workers of this country will never get the standard of living to which they are entitled until we overcome this problem of plenty in commodity production. Any scheme that seeks to limit the control of the commodity to enable a profit to be made out of it, rather than to see that everybody gets an adequate supply, is something that I think should be opposed in principle.

We are considering the introduction of an entirely new principle into the commercial organisation of this country. The seven port refinery groups and the 15 beet sugar groups are to be given a statutory right of ownership to produce sugar. No other person or group, although you may have manufacturers or users of sugar consuming 700,000 tons, as this scheme gets into its full operation will get a licence, and they will be unable to enter into production of the raw materials for their own commodities. Because this legislation has been uneconomic in the past, holds out no prospects of economic developments in the future, and because it introduces a property right on the part of persons in the industry who will hold that right in perpetuity. I firmly oppose this Bill. I hope bon. Members will not think in terms of their party interests, but will realise that there is a vital principle being embodied in an Act of Parliament to-day which will have far reaching consequences, will produce a static type of industry and will lead to inefficiency. You will have the same position recurring as we had in transport after the War. If the railways had been legalised into a monoply of this character new forms of transport could not have appeared. It is vicious in principle, and I suggest that the House would be well advised to reject this preposterous Bill.

7.10 p.m.

I am fully in agreement with this Bill, and I should like to see it passed into law at the earliest opportunity, but it does mark a definite stage in the history of the beet sugar industry and one where we should stop to consider on what basis the finance of the industry is to be continued, and whether that finance is indefinitely to be foreign or British. Hitherto, as I understand it, there has been difficulty in getting British capital behind the beet sugar factories because of the uncertainty of the future of the industry. Now that we have the Government's definite assurance about the future of the industry incorporated in a Bill like this, there should be no difficulty in securing English capital to finance the proposed amalgamation. I do not say this in any spirit hostile to the Government, I only submit it as a view held by many connected with the beet sugar industry, that as long as the State is paying a considerable subsidy to the industry, it is preferable that that subsidy should benefit English shareholders if it is going to benefit shareholders at all. I submit that there is a great deal of feeling in the industry that the subsidy is going in part at present in the form of bonuses to foreign shareholders, and I hope that the Government at this stage of the reorganisation of the industry will consider the possibility of the industry being capitalised by British capital in future.

7.12 p.m.

I do not want to take up the time of the House in discussing the principle whether the subsidy should continue or not. That is not so important as the other questions arising out of this Bill. If we are to have the industry at all in this country it is obvious that some form of support must be given. The question is whether we should have it at all. The facts are that there is no sugar- producing country in the world where there is not some form of State subsidy. In fact, we are giving less subsidy per cwt. of sugar produced in this country than the other countries are, and our prices are no higher than theirs. What we really want to get down to is whether this is the right way of tapering off the subsidy. We cannot continue this industry with continual support from the State. Mention has been made of the resolution passed at the Brighton Conference of the Labour party. That resolution made it plain that if support was to be continued, it must be of a limited nature and it must in time disappear. It also laid down the important condition that there must be such reorganisation of the refining industry as to effect economy in working whereby this subsidy should be done away with. A large part of the money taken for this industry has gone to the owners of capital in the sugar refining industry, and to foreign interests who have their capital over here. Surely here is a case for inquiring into the whole question of economy in the sugar refining industry and of making such economies as will permit the subsidy to be reduced. Moreover, in the resolution at the Labour party Conference, provision was laid down that the conditions of the workers in the sugar refining industry and upon the land should give them adequate justice and a representation which they certainly will not possess under this Bill; and that the interests of the consumer should be adequately represented.

The Bill makes no attempt to face these problems. It is a cumbersome, unwieldy Bill which pretends on the surface to do many things which seem all right, but which in actual fact is too cumbersome to do them. The Minister admitted in his speech that there is as yet no agreement between the Government and the companies; in other words, that if he gets the Bill he will have to set about trying to get some agreement with them. Has he as yet the necessary powers? I should like to think he has, but I suggest that he will not get those powers unless he nationalises the industry. There are very clever and able men at the head of these industries, such as Messrs. Tate and Lyle and others who have been mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for South East Ham (Mr. Barnes). I wish the Minister luck if he thinks he can bring about an agreement which will result in the conditions which we wish to see introduced.

I do not think that he will be able to do it, and that is why we have always stressed, at the Labour party Conference and in other resolutions, as well as in the Debate last July at the end of the last Parliament, when this matter came under consideration as the result of a resolution moved by Dr. Addison, that the matters to which I refer should be dealt with. They are not found in the Bill, and I think that the Minister is not in the position to deal with them. In Clause 14 (4, b ) is a provision for Treasury control over profits. How is that to operate effectively? It will be very difficult to make that operative. What powers have the Treasury? Have they powers to take over and examine books in order to see what profits are made? What in general is to be the principle on which they will operate? I suppose some form of limitation is envisaged, and I hope that the Minister who replies at the end of the Debate will tell us what kind of control is proposed over the profits of this combination, this Corporation, which the Government are proposing to set up.

Why is there no safeguard for the consumers? The Government propose to leave the Corporation to decide the prices of sugar. If we had a body really publicly owned and publicly controlled, and such as I and my hon. Friends would like to see, there would obviously be some kind of direct control over the prices of sugar. Why is there not to be representation of consumers as well as of workers on the board of directors? If we had a public utility corporation, that is the kind of provision that we ought to see. The hon. Baronet the Member for Leominster (Sir E. Shepperson) spoke about the wages of those who work on the land. I am not satisfied that justice will be done by leaving that matter in the hands of the county wages committee. In many districts, the wages of the sugar beet workers on the land are very unsatisfactory. The hon. Baronet said that hourly rates are in some cases much higher than day rates.

May I point out to him that in many counties—I know one in particular—hourly rates are not fixed by the wages board? There is nothing to prevent a farmer from fixing any rate he likes because that matter is outside the purview of the wages board. We want a safeguard against that position arising. We want a definite understanding, especially in view of the fact that public money is being used, that the conditions of the agricultural labourers working on sugar beet shall be without doubt such as they should be. My hon. Friends and I on this side of the House therefore maintain, that although there is a case for continuing this support for the time being, and only for the time being, public money which is being used must be used for the purpose of bringing about State control, and ultimately State ownership, over an important public service. It is because we do not see that principle embodied in the Bill that we have moved this Amendment, and we intend to press it to a Division.

7.22 p.m.

I had no intention of intervening in this Debate, and I will do so now only for one minute in order to reply to the observations of the hon. Member for Forest of Dean (Mr. Price) and other observations made in the course of the Debate on the subject of whether the agricultural labourer will be able to participate in the advantages that will be given to agriculture by the Bill. In many parts of the country in sugar beet areas, the ability of the labourer working by the piece in the cleaning, singling and lifting of sugar beet is such that in almost every case he can earn wages in excess of the day rates. The custom is that the man receives, at the end of the work, a figure equivalent to the amount that he would have earned as a day wage, and that at the end of a certain period, when the particular work is done, he receives an extra amount of money. A farmer who is growing sugar beet would be very unwise to underpay his employés because the tonnage depends upon the number of beet lifted per acre, and if the workmen are underpaid, and feel that they are underpaid, the farmer will suffer in decreased crop. If the workmen are underpaid, the farmers will also suffer, in the lifting, in having an excessive amount of dirt returned. The agricultural labourer receives, and under this Measure will receive, very great advantage.

It has been suggested that the farmer is not sympathetic to his men. That statement is absolutely untrue. There is no industry in the country in which the relationships between the employer and the man are more personal than in agriculture. There are farmers all over the country who will keep on an aged or infirm man who has several children and, when he has to discharge employés, will discharge the younger and more efficient man in order to keep on the less efficient man, because he has sympathy with the children that the less efficient man has. I contradict emphatically the suggestion that there is not sympathy in agriculture between the employer and the man. I apologise, Mr. Speaker, for intervening in this Debate, because I had not intended to do so. My opinion, well known to the House, is that it is essential that this industry should live for the benefit of British agriculture. The only reason I have risen is—

I think Mr. Speaker can keep order without others butting in. I want to ask the hon. Member for Leominster (Sir E. Shepperson) who it is makes the piece price-list. Do the farmer and the labourer make it in combination, or does the farmer thrust the piece price-list upon the labourer?

It is an agreement between the labourer and the employer. I would, moreover, inform the hon. Member that I have known a case where the men have offered to their employer that they would take a lower piece rate than they had during the previous year, because the men had become more efficient in the cultivation of the crop. They did that without any instigation from the employer.

7.29 p.m.

The revival of agriculture is one of the most urgent interests of our time, but few people would undertake to say that that revival should be carried out without the expenditure of a good deal of money. I gather that the opposition to this Measure is not because of the moneys that are being expended, but because of the feeling, which is shared by a great number of people, that those moneys which have been, and are about to be, expended, should be spent in ways more beneficial to the industry and to the community as a whole. I have never, either in this House or in my constituency, concealed my dislike of the subsidy. We must face the obvious fact that successive Parliaments have encouraged farmers in this country to grow this crop and, as many speakers have pointed out this afternoon, it would be almost tragic if this encouragement were suddenly stopped. I would like to say a few words concerning the position of certain of these farmers who have been encouraged to grow the crop, and the effects which the Bill we are now discussing will have on them. The Minister himself told us to-day that the Bill is really brought forward to assist agriculture, and last July the White Paper told us the same thing. It was decided to continue the subsidy on agricultural grounds, and the White Paper stated that:

It is true that there are a few beet growers in this country who are situated a considerable distance from the factories, and I take it that the fact that they are few is not going to exempt them from any assistance which agriculture will receive. How will these growers be affected by this Bill? As I understand the Bill, these few people who, in various parts of the country, are distant from a factory, will be unable to produce any beet at all. In my own constituency, which is one of the distant parts, I believe that the freight on sugar beet sent to the factory is 10s. a ton, and in other places it is approximately the same. What will happen under this Bill? If a comparison is made between the distant areas and other areas, it will be found that at least 85 per cent. of the sugar beet in this country is grown on land which is nowhere farther than 25 miles from the factory. It so happens that practically the whole of this 85 per cent. is to be found in the Eastern Counties. There is thus an obvious advantage to growers who are situated near, and an obvious disadvantage to those who, through no fault of their own, are situated a long way from a factory.

In Clause 5 of the Bill I find that future contracts will be entered into between the Corporation and a Sugar Beet Marketing Board, and, where there is no such board, some other body. They will have to agree on the future contract price of sugar beet. I understand that at the present time a provisional committee has recommended certain contracts for 1936, and I also understand that practically the whole of that committee is composed of members drawn from the Eastern Counties. Some of the distant growers, who I think are represented by only three of the 27 members of the committee, suggested that a small levy of 1d. or 2d. a ton might be made on the industry in order to enable those who are situated afar to bring their beet to the factory on a footing of some equality with the others. When one remembers the composition of the committee, it is not surprising to discover that such a recommendation was not adopted.

I should like to put the following consideration before the Minister. The monies which Parliament has voted from time to time for this industry have been voted for the industry and not for any particular part of Great Britain. The right hon. Gentleman has repeatedly told us that the money was to assist the agricultural industry and not any particular part of the country. If this Measure were designed to help the East of England as a depressed area, the Minister ought to say so, and if he did—I do not think he will—I should simply draw a comparison between the treatment of this depressed area and other depressed areas with which I am connected. For not only are about 85 per cent. of the sugar beet payments going to the Eastern Counties, but I think I am right in saying that something like 50 per cent. of the payments in respect of the wheat quota are also going there. I was therefore not surprised to hear the Minister say to-day that, on the whole, the Eastern Counties are not quite so depressed as they were, and I should be surprised if they continued to be depressed. In any case, as the committee to which I was referring is drawn from the Eastern Counties, which have nearly the whole of the benefits, we are creating a monopoly for those counties both with respect to the beet and the wheat payments. This is a point of some substance, and I will quote both from the Majority and the Minority Reports on it. The Majority Report says:

If the hon. and gallant Gentleman will look at paragraph 222, page 75, he will see that the Committee was unable to come to a decision on this matter, and suggests that it should be inquired into by the Sugar Commission.

I have certainly read that paragraph, but Clause 5 says that the Sugar Commission has to come to an agreement with the Sugar Beet Marketing Board, and that consists entirely of representatives from the East of England, which takes us back to the position from which we started.

May I read from the Clause and allow the House to judge?

"Subject to the provisions of this section it shall be the duty of the Corporation to enter into contracts for the purchase by the Corporation of home-grown beet upon such terms and conditions as may be determined by an agreement made, after consultation with the Commission, between the Corporation and a Sugar Beet Marketing Board, or, where there is no such board, any body which in the opinion of the Commission is substantially representative of the growers of home-grown beet.…

Surely that means that the Sugar Commission has to come to an agreement with the Sugar Beet Marketing Board. During the last two years the experiences of representatives of the distant growers have not been encouraging, because for two years they have been trying to get the Committee to agree to a recommendation which, so far, the Committee has refused. What grounds have they for hoping that in the future they will fare any better? The Minister knows as well as I do that for some considerable time the representatives of the distant growers have been attempting to get this recommendation and have completely failed.

This is an important point, and I do not think the hon. Member appreciates the authority of the Commission. If the Commision were in favour of some equalisation of transport costs, I think we may reasinably assume that the Sugar Beet Marketing Board will give effect to that. If it does not, it will be possible for the growers to come before the statutory committee of investigation, and if that committee reports that the complaint is justified, it will be for the Minister to proceed on those lines. The Minister would certainly be greatly influenced by the decisions of an impartial body such as the Commission to which this investigation would be entrusted.

I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman. I take it that there is some hope for the distant growers if they can put their case before the Commission. What I should like to know is whether the Minister has power to intervene if he is satisfied that there is an injustice?

Yes, under the procedure I have just outlined with regard to an investigation by the statutory committee.

I am glad to hear that. In conclusion, I would like to say that support for the claims of the people to whom I am referring was given by the Minister this afternoon. When he spoke of the position in Scotland, he said that he hoped there would be no decrease in the acreage in Scotland. I would point out to him that special treatment with regard to freight is given in Scotland, since under the new agreement 34s. a ton free on rail is paid, and this compares very favourably with the net revenue of about 26s. a ton received by the distant growers in this country. Consequently in making the special concession, for Scotland, the Minister must have realised that there was a special case. I would, therefore, beg him to consider my remarks, and I hope that when an opportunity arises he will use his influence to see that those who are just as entitled as anyone else to grow the crop in this country will get equal treatment.

7.44 p.m.

There are one or two remarks I would like to make with reference to statements made during the course of this Debate on the beet sugar industry and various elements of it. Let me say at once that I frankly admit to the House that, if the parties who are responsible for the introduction of this industry are to blame, I stand before you as one of the culprits. I have been associated with the industry from its beginning. I think I was mainly responsible for persuading what is commonly known as the Dutch group to invest their money here long before the days of subsidies. I do not want to speak in this House under any misconception as to my being an interested party; I am an interested party.

Many references have been made to the early days of the industry, and it has very aptly been said from the benches opposite that all the calculations upon which the subsidy was originally based have been upset. That is true. When the subsidy was first calculated, the world price of sugar was something like 26s. a cwt. It was calculated that, even allowing for a considerable fall, the 10-year period of subsidy would be ample to establish the industry, as Mr. Snowden, who was then Chancellor of the Exchequer, stated in this House. If the fall in the price of sugar had only been 50 per cent. of the price at that time, he and others would have been correct, but, as everybody knows, the price fell to 4s. and some odd pence, a figure which was never anticipated and which upset the whole calculations.

I want to go back for one or two sentences to the earlier days of the subsidy. This industry was started in 1911, and at that time it was a group of Dutchmen, who were prominent in the industry in Holland and Belgium, who took the risk which in those days British capital was unprepared to take, and who, without any prospect of a subsidy, came and built a factory in Norfolk, at Cantley. The War intervened and upset matters, and every penny invested in that factory was lost. I mention this because I think it is due to my Dutch friends that it should be known. They put up more capital themselves, and started the factory again after the War, and it has became one of the most profitable of all the factories. Those who criticise—not unkindly, I admit—the fact that this particular factory has for several years paid dividends of 20 per cent., must not forget that the original capital with which it was built was lost, and was replaced by these same investors. I have been proud to be associated with them, and particularly proud to have had a hand in the direction of factories the efficiency of which has enabled large dividends to be paid when other competing factories have not been so fortunate.

Originally the intention underlying our efforts to establish the industry in this country was not so much to produce at home a portion of our sugar requirements, but to provide for arable agriculture a cleaning crop which could be sold for cash at harvest time, and which would relieve wheat, barley and oats from the heavy burden of the necessary cleaning of the land in the rotation. It is true that circumstances—very largely the subsidy—have led to sugar beet assuming in British agriculture a place among our crops which was never contemplated in those early days. It has assumed importance as a main crop, and has become so essential to those districts where it is largely grown that no Government has ventured, and I hazard the guess that no Government will venture, to allow the industry to fizzle out so long as reasonable support will keep it in existence. I must apologise for these reminiscences, but one or two statements which have been made during the Debate seemed to call for some comment.

Before I say a word or two in criticism of the Bill itself, I should like to refer to the appeal that we have had from the hon. and gallant Member for Pembroke (Major Lloyd George), that growers in distant parts of the country should be given some reasonable opportunity of continuing to grow beet, and of doing so on favourable terms. I sympathise with that appeal. I myself am growing beet in Sussex, and am paying 11s. 7d. a ton freight. I am not looking at the matter from a personal point of view, but there is no doubt that considerable preparations have been made in certain arable districts of the country, which are mentioned in the Report—Pembrokeshire, Somersetshire, West Sussex, and parts of Hampshire—which for a long time have been hoping, and which have had hopes held out to them, that they would have opportunities of growing beet; and I hope that the present Government and governments of the future will not set their face too rigidly against a possible future extension of the industry which may allow these districts to be considered. [An HON. MEMBER: "To have a share of the swag."] Yes, if you like to put it in that way—a share in the advantage which any arable district derives from the cultivation of sugar beet among its crops.

On a point of Order. I have no desire to interrupt the hon. and gallant Member, but I should like to know whether it is in order for any Member to support a Bill in this House when it is known from his statements that he is likely to obtain financial advantage from public funds?

That question has often been raised, and I have generally answered it by saying that, when a Member really knows something about a subject, it is rather important that he should be able to speak on it. If Members who would derive advantage from a Bill were debarred from speaking on it, it would cut out the possibility of their taking part in the Debate, and we should lose the advantage of hearing those who perhaps know most about the subject. Moreover, such a rule would stop a great many Members from speaking on numbers of Bills that come before the House, greatly to the disadvantage of the House.

I have never concealed my feeling that it would have been wiser and simpler for this Government and previous Governments to have provided the element of protection necessary to maintain the sugar beet industry by means other than a subsidy. I should have always preferred an adjustment between the Customs and Excise duties which would give a reasonable protection to the industry. I quite appreciate that probably the principal reason why that, method was not adopted was that the sugar beet industry had become equally valuable to agriculture, and to agricultural labour, wherever it had been established, regardless of the relative efficiency of the factory, and that, if the protection were provided by an adjustment of the duties, it was very likely that certain factories would cease to exist while others would flourish, and some parts of the country, in which the industry had become of great value, might lose this advantage. The Government, no doubt, felt that the only way to ensure that no district should lose an industry which has become, if you like, a vested interest, was to force an amalgamation of the different factories, so that the stronger could carry the weaker and all could be maintained. From that point of view I think it is possible that even this complicated Bill provides as good a way of dealing with the matter as can be found. I am convinced that it provides, among its many Clauses and Schedules, for every conceivable form of protection for the interests of the taxpayer and of the State, and that it will ensure that no unreasonable profit can be earned in the future by the capital in it.

There is only one feature of the Bill that I want to criticise to any extent. It is, of course, that part embodied in Clause 3 and Part II of the First Schedule. Under that Clause and Schedule, the Government of the day can practically say to the various factories and refineries: You will have the oppor- tunity of forming an amalgamation by agreement, but it has got to be on terms of which the Government approve, with a capital of which they approve, with management and direction of which they approve, and so on; but, if you fail to satisfy the Government with the terms on which you are prepared to amalgamate voluntarily, the Government may link you up in one concern compulsorily, whether you like it or not, and take the whole of your assets for what they choose to give, without any recourse to arbitration, independent valuation, or any appeal of any kind to the Courts." It may be said that there is provision for an appeal. There is provision for an appeal to the Courts only as to the division of interests as between the various factories; none is provided as between the Government-regulated Corporation and the factories which are being forced to bring their assets within its walls

I do not for a moment think, and I am speaking now as a director of several of these factories, that it is the intention of the Minister of Agriculture to use this provision harshly, but the inclusion of it in the Bill has caused a great deal of alarm, which is not confined to those interested in the sugar beet industry. It is regarded in many business quarters in the City of London as a very dangerous precedent, and one which might lead to considerable hardship outside the formation of the Sugar Beet Corporation. So far as the sugar factories are concerned, it introduces an unexpected and unnecessary complication into the extraordinarily difficult negotiations which have been going on for a long time among the different factories and other interests concerned, and which have been handled with extreme skill by Mr. Palache, the chairman of the Sugar Beet Factories Committee. The Government are making his task and the task of his committee unnecessarily difficult by taking these very drastic compulsory powers in the Bill. We have the Minister's assurance that he does not intend to use them drastically. If he does not intend to use them drastically, let them be modified in the Bill, let us have, before this Debate ends, an assurance, in addition to the assurance already given by the Minister of Agriculture, that some modification will be inserted in the Bill. The Minister has recognised in advance the justice of the criticism by stating that any compulsory scheme which he proposes will be laid upon the Table of this House before it is put into force. That is something, but I think it is reasonable to press that there should in addition be some recourse to the High Court in the event of a grievance to secure that some measure of justice should apply to the industry. I would urge the Minister to treat this criticism as a serious one which should be met by an early promise if the negotiations now nearing completion are not to be delayed.

8.1 p.m.

It is very noticeable, when public money is to be handed out to manufacturers and farmers, how hon. Members on the other side welcome it, yet when it is suggested that public money should be expended for the benefit of workpeople they think it is wrong and against the interests of the whole community. I was struck with the hon. Baronet's suggestion that it was going to be a great hardship to be forced to combine and there was no chance of an appeal for the consideration of their assets. I am glad to find that there is at least one of those engaged in the industry who is prepared to tell the House that there are some valuable assets to be considered and dealt with. We will remember that in our future discussions. I would draw attention particularly to the absence of any opportunity to consumers to have any voice with regard to this. They seem to have been left out of account, and they have to pay whatever is decided by those who are going to have the benefit of the use of public money in this way. I am opposed to the handing out of public money to private individuals. I agree with what hon. Members on this side have said and content myself with stating that, if public money is going to be used, the industry both on its agricultural and on its manufacturing side should be owned and controlled by the nation.

I want particularly to draw attention to Clause 18, because we were told that wages were going to be dealt with in that Clause in some way that the Government believed was satisfactory. There is not a word in the Clause that deals with the agricultural worker. If it can be interpreted as bringing the agricultural worker within its confines, I would ask to have that made clear. But, even if they are to be included, there is no advantage to them here. It speaks of their wages being regulated in the same way as wages are regulated under the House of Commons Resolution. That means the Fair Wages Clause. How are you going to apply that to the workers in this industry. Again, there is a provision that, if there is disagreement, the Minister may refer it to the Industrial Court. Those who have had experience of endeavouring to persuade Ministers to refer matters to the Industrial Court know how long it takes before they reach the tribunal and, if that is resorted to in this case, the season will have passed before there is an opportunity of consideration of their wages. The Fair Wage Clause speaks of a rate of wages set out by someone. There are no wages set out here except those paid in the agricultural industry in the district. Are those the wages to be applied to this industry? If that is so, what has the Fair Wage Clause to do with these people? I hope we shall hear some more about this Clause and how it protects the workers.

I hope, if the Bill gets its Second Reading, something will be done to ensure that we shall not feel ashamed that public money is being spent in paying low wages. Again no provision is made for increases of wages. These people are engaged in small numbers in the various districts and have little chance of dealing with their wage questions in the way that large organisations of workpeople can. They should have better opportunities than are set out in this Measure. Everything is being done to protect those who will secure a return as interest and dividends upon their money, but the Bill has not in it that protection for the workpeople which we might expect when public money is being expended in this way. In handing out this money to private individuals to make them secure I should have thought the Government would realise that it was far better that the industry should be owned and controlled by the nation.

8.9 p.m.

I have listened with great surprise to some of the speeches from the benches opposite. If ever there was a party which should be pleased that this Bill has been brought in, I should have thought it was the Socialist party. The Government for some time have been administering Socialism in homeopathic doses, but it seems to me that this is one of the biggest doses we have had to swallow. I cannot help wondering whether Lord Stonehaven had this Bill in his mind when he wrote in a Conservative magazine the other day that

"a poacher is still a poacher even after he has stolen the gamekeeper's uniform, and that the task of the Conservative party was to put the country on guard against revolutionary Socialism rigged in constitutional garb."

This seems to me to be "revolutionary Socialism" parading in constitutional garb. I do not mind admitting that I am also interested in sugar beet. I am interested in it, first of all, because I represent a constituency in which there are a large number of growers; secondly, I am a grower myself; and, thirdly, I am interested in the manufacture of sugar. Near my division there is a factory which last year treated 372,000 tons of beet. It paid in wages £400,000, it paid the farmer for his beet £720,000 and a further £36,000 was paid out in wages in the factories. When one says that this is all done in West Suffolk, the poorest county in the Kingdom in respect of wages, one can only recognise what a godsend it is that such a thing has descended on the county. The coming of sugar beet has transformed Suffolk from a depressed area to one of incipient prosperity.

Notice taken that 40 Members were not present: House counted and 40 Members being present

We have an enormous amount of restrictive legislation. This Government which was going to make farming pay is now going to make farmers pay. I should like to know to what section of agitation the Minister has succumbed because, after all, the growers do not want the Bill, the workers do not want it, and the factories do not want it. One can only think that the refineries have drawn a veil over the eyes of the Government. On this question of restriction, when the Minister was moving a Supplementary Estimate last year he said that Scotland had not quickly taken up the cultivation of sugar beet, but had begun now to deal with the crop, partly owing to the very low prices for farm produce, and other parts of the country were beginning to go in for the cultivation.

In the report of one of the Commissioners for one of the distressed areas sugar beet planting was suggested, and the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Pembroke (Major Lloyd George) was just now pleading for the establishment of a factory in that neighbourhood. If the restrictions in Clause 5 are to be applied, it seems to me that there will be no hope of Pembroke having a factory, nor, indeed, any other new area. We should like to have an assurance from the Government that this does not really mean a contraction of the increased acreage available. We have been controlled by a wheat quota, and now we are to be controlled with regard to beea. We have young people coming into agriculture, wanting to expand the number of people working, and we find ourselves restricted under Clause 5 as to what we can do. The Minister described the Bill this afternoon as one to create employment and increase production, rather than one to increase unemployment and restrict production, and yet we learn from the note which explains the Bill that:

While this is very serious from the point of view of the grower, I cannot help thinking that the point which the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Rye (Sir G. Courthorpe) made was one which perhaps may form a very dangerous precedent if we have sitting on the Government Benches a party whose ideas in regard to private property are not quite as favourable as those of the people who occupy those benches at the present moment. [AN HON. MEMBER: "A spark of conscience."] There is, as the hon. Member says, just a spark of conscience left. We find in the Bill, and especially is it repeated in the explana- tion of the Bill, that the companies are all to amalgamate, and are all to come to the same decision. If they do not, if they do not commit suicide within one month and dive into the pool, the Minister of Agriculture has produced a legal dose which will put them out of their separate corporate existence. That is a very serious thing for any Government to devise. What should we have said if it had been proposed by hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House?

So far we have had no reply from the Minister on the terms of the settlement. I understood from his reply to my question this afternoon, when I asked him the terms upon which the settlement was to be made, that he was to make a statement in the House later. Maybe we are to hear it in the closing speech this evening, but anyway, up to the moment we do not know what the figure is to be. We do not know upon what basis compensation is to be given. It is well known in the industry that some of the earlier plants which were brought over secondhand from the Continent were in a very second-hand condition. Are these plants to be purchased under this scheme at the same rate as those which were bought new, largely manufactured in England and kept up to date in a high state of efficiency? There should be some discrimination in these matters. I shall be very much obliged if the Minister will tell us upon what basis these things are to be valued. It is all very well for hon. Gentlemen to talk about confiscation of foreign money. The Government have no more right to take foreign money than they have to take British money. When this compensation comes, as far as one can see, it is not to be in cash but in shares, which are to be governed by debentures. The debentures are to be placed in front of these shares, and, as far as one can see, the people are to lose their security. I should like to have an explanation of the method of finance. I am certain that it will deter a very large number of people from putting money into industry if, on such occasions as these, the Government bring forward methods whereby securities are to be changed into second securities and then others are to be placed in front of them.

These are only one or two of the points which occur to me, but when the Bill comes before Committee we shall have a good deal to say about some of the details. At the present time we do not know the amount of compensation. If the lump sum which is thrown into the arena is scrambled for by the various people who are expecting to get some of it, and if, like the case of the pancake which is scrambled at Westminster School, you get only a very small piece, then you have a right to appeal to the courts, but there is no right of appeal to the courts if one regards the lump sum for the whole as not being enough. That is a provision we must have in the Bill; otherwise this precedent, which is already dangerous, will be made more dangerous still. I suppose that this is not the time nor the place to suggest that all this bother would have been avoided if the Government had taken their courage in both hands and given us a straight duty instead of these subsidies and quotas.

At the present time agriculture is not "wrapped in cotton wool." We have electrical undertakings which have put through our fields great pylons from which we cannot draw any electricity, we have all the unfortunate regulations of the Milk Board, we are penalised if we want to grow extra potatoes, and now we are to have birth control for pigs. The Archbishop of Canterbury alone knows what the tithe is going to do for us. We ask to be left alone. Wipe out all these things. Give us a fair and square tariff so that we can hold our own in our own markets.

8.23 p.m.

I intervene tonight in this Debate mainly because I have noticed that the majority of the speakers who have opposed this Bill represent urban constituencies. I think that it would be unfortunate if it were felt that to-day there are not many in the urban districts who feel that it is necessary to support agricultural industry if we are to have a prosperous England. Among the Measures that have been brought into this House to support agriculture, I have always thought that those for supporting the growing of sugar beet were well worth while. In fighting four elections in my division, the urban division of Sheffield, I have at every election taken the opportunity to put before the electors my view that it would be well to support this agricultural industry and the subsidy given to it. Although like one or two other speakers from these benches, I would prefer to see Protection given to this industry by way of an adjustment of the Sugar Duty, I recognise that there are considerable difficulties in doing so with regard to this industry. The Bill may be regarded as a satisfactory compromise in a somewhat controversial issue. It will be a sound basis on which to settle a long-term sugar beet policy for this country. It is essential that we should grow and manufacture in this country a certain proportion of our own sugar.

I should like to congratulate my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture on having had the courage, though the Greene Committee did not give him the line that he has taken, to decide on the policy of reorganisation rather than to adopt the Majority Report, which was not only doctrinaire but nearly inhuman. We must also be grateful to Mr. Cyril Lloyd, the third member of the Greene Committee, for his far-seeing and excellent Minority Report, in which he gave most clearly his reasons for not accepting the recommendation to discontinue the assistance to the industry. We have in the Greene Report been given, fortunately, an alternative proposal for reorganisation, and they sketch out the method by which the reorganisation should be achieved. It is essential that we should continue, as far as we can, to retain the advantage for the farmer as well as the country of this sugar beet production. The farmer not only gets his crop but he also has great advantage on the land in the growing of following crops. Not only is the sugar beet produced, but a considerable amount of useful feeding stuff is brought in as a byproduct in the form of beet pulp.

The growing of sugar beet in this country and the production of a certain proportion of our sugar consumption, approximately one-fifth, is a great national asset. We remember that in the time of the War we were rationed for sugar. If we take the present figure of sugar production from the sugar beet, it amounts to nearly the amount of sugar that this country required during the War, when we were rationed. Although I should be the last to argue merely that we must do something now to prepare for war, it is useful to consider that what we are doing in this Bill would provide not only a very large proportion of the sugar we would need in such an emergency, but it would also save our ships for bringing in other necessary produce.

The assistance given to the sugar beet industry is one of the most satisfactory means of providing employment in the countryside. It is, also as Mr. Lloyd pointed out in his Minority Report, the only mainstay against the collapse of good farming. Living as I do in the eastern counties, though I am not connected definitely with the sugar beet industry, I have many friends among the farmers in that district—farmers who, during the last few years, would have been hard put to it to keep their balance-sheets square if it had not been for the growing of sugar beet, and it has saved many from bankruptcy. We can well hope that the world price of sugar will improve. Today it stands at a ridiculously low figure, approximately only one-fourth of the figure at which it stood in 1924. As that price improves the amount of assistance necessary in order to keep the industry alive in this country will gradually be reduced.

I admit that the support of this industry in the past has in some respects been unduly costly. That, I am afraid, was bound to be the case in view of the very big experiment that the whole scheme involved. It is also unquestionable that some part of the benefits has not gone into the hands to which it was intended to go. Some of the factories have done extremely well. The subsidy might, perhaps, in the earlier stages, have been diverted into the farmers' hands with more success. But that is past history. It was extremely difficult to start a new industry of this sort without making certain mistakes. When I hear criticism of the huge profits of certain factories, I would remind the House that several of the factories have not paid any dividends. One of the main reasons for the difficulty in coming to terms inside the industry has been that two groups in the industry have been efficient and successful and they naturally did not wish to carry on their back one less successful and perhaps less efficient. I welcome the suggestion of the Minister to amalgamate the various factories, and I have no doubt the result will be that the efficient factories will help the inefficient, and we shall thus avoid the closing down of some of the factories.

I am doubtful as to the wisdom of limiting the assistance to the 560,000 tons. We have heard from the Liberal benches criticism of the Bill because it makes it difficult for certain acreage which might be suitable for growing sugar-beet from being able to supply beet to a factory owing to the distance of that area from the factories. This limitation makes it difficult to put other factories in desirable districts. I sympathise with the request for some assurance on that point. It might be met much more satisfactorily than by again increasing something which is uneconomic long freights. It could be met by putting up of one or two additional factories in these areas. I hope we shall not be restricted to the 560,000 tons of white sugar but that we shall have a figure which will allow the home and colonial production to supply the major proportion of the consumption in this country.

I feel sure that under the Bill consumers need have no fear that they will be exploited. In saying that I have in mind the fact that we in this country have for some years purchased our sugar at lower prices than practically every other country in Europe. There is only one other country that has been supplied with sugar at retail prices as low as this country. We are paying between 2½d. and 2¼d. per lb. retail; Italy is paying between 6d. and 7d., and France very nearly double our price. It is, therefore, rather strange to hear from the Opposition benches a reference to a. much lower standard of living in this country caused by such a subsidy as; this. I believe that the subsidy which has enabled the industry to grow a certain amount of sugar in this country has resulted in sugar being sold at ½d. per lb. less than would otherwise have been possible. When we are getting only 5s. 3d. per cwt. assistance that is very little more than ½d. per lb.; and the consumer during the last few years has been paying nothing for the sugar produced in this country. The taxpayer and the consumer being practically the same person, the sugar has been costing nothing under the subsidy.

The imports of sugar into this country last year amounted to 2,000,000 tons, less than half of which came from our colonies. We are a long way from the day when our total sugar requirements will be supplied entirely from home and colonial sources, and I hope that the Minister will consider a little more elasticity in the Bill as soon as the reorganisation of the industry has been carried out. The National Farmers' Union, recognising that its members will receive, under the re-organisation, a fair share of the assistance, are supporting the Bill, and there is little doubt that hon. Members opposite, if they criticise the Bill in the constituencies in those areas where sugar beet is grown, will not receive the support they expect to get from the labourers engaged in the industry. We have heard to-night that the piece-work prices paid in this industry are by agreement between the labourers and farmers, and I have never heard that there has been any dispute or any disagreement with the terms under which sugar beet has been raised and grown. There has been a great deal more money distributed to those working in the sugar beet industry than in most other sections of agriculture, and I feel sure that the labourers in the areas where it is grown will support the Bill to a man, because they realise that it is intended to keep men on the land.

In conclusion, I can understand that part of the Amendment of hon. Members opposite in which they say they cannot support the Second Reading of the Bill because it fails to provide that the manufacture of sugar is carried out under a system of public ownership, but I cannot understand why they refuse to support it because it does not provide for a progressive reduction in the amount of the subsidy. Surely if the Opposition do not wish to support the Bill because it is uneconomic they certainly cannot support it by gradually removing it. If they say it is a waste of money, it is much more logical to cut it out entirely. I think that the growing of sugar beet in this country has been a Godsend to the arable districts in the Eastern Counties and in other parts of the country, and I most wholeheartedly support this compromise in dealing with a very difficult problem. I think it is in the interests of hon. Members opposite to avoid a Division on such an important topic as this.

8.43 p.m.

The hon. Member surely will not consider that he has replied to his political colleague who preceded him, the hon. and gallant Member for West Suffolk (Colonel Burton). The Prime Minister, whom I am pleased to see in the House, must have heard the illuminating speech delivered by the hon. and gallant Member. Many authorities in this country have for many years held the view that the beet sugar subsidy is perhaps the most blatant ramp we have ever had, and the speech of the hon. and gallant Member proves it up to the hilt. In addition to proving that the subsidy is a ramp, he also proved that the Bill is a perpetuation of the ramp. We have heard very interesting speeches in the last few years on this matter, but I very much question whether we have ever heard a speech comparable to that of the hon. and gallant Member. I have no desire to criticise what he said and we shall have the further pleasure of reading it to-morrow in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

I would like to put before the Prime Minister the policy which, it seems to me, underlies this Bill. I hold the Prime Minister, and the Government of which he has been head for some years, largely responsible for the condition of agriculture in this country. For years the Conservative Government have propounded a policy of reducing the wages of industrial workers. I might refer in this connection to the mining industry and to measures which have led to reductions in wages in the agricultural industry and other industries. As a result, the purchasing capacity of the people has been so diminished that they are unable to consume agricultural products. Having brought the purchasing power of the people into that plight, the Government have perforce advocated proposals such as that contained in the Bill—ramps in order to feed the farmers and the rentiers, British and foreign, by subsidising capitalism. We have in this Bill a continuation of the policy that scarcity must be perpetuated and that there must be a scheme of price fixation in order to secure to capital the highest possible rate of interest. We, as a party, are definitely opposed to that policy and our major criticism of the Bill is that it stabilises price levels and makes the consumers pay. by the creation of scarcity.

It is well known that sugar can be imported from the Crown Colonies much cheaper than sugar beet can be produced in this country. Yet a Government which has always prided itself on its patriotism and on maintaining the Colonies, brings in a Bill of this kind. Although it is possible to get a greater yield of sugar at a cheaper rate from sugar cane than from sugar beet, the Government are prepared to permit the sugar-producing Crown Colonies to forage for themselves, in order to help the British farmer and also another interest which to them is even more substantial than the British farmer—in order that ground rents in this country shall continue to rise. That is the policy which underlies this Bill and the whole of the Government's programme. I presume that a large number of landowners have been affected by the closing of collieries and the loss of royalties, and wayleaves and waterleaves. It is necessary that they should be subsidised and it is by agricultural measures of this kind that they can be recouped, in high ground rents, for what they have lost on royalties and in other respects.

There is another feature to which I would draw the attention of the Prime Minister. The distressed areas of this country are dependent on the production of goods for export. Every one of those areas is an export area in which capital goods are produced. By Measures of this kind we deliberately prevent the importation of goods from potential customers to whom we could sell our capital goods. I hold the Prime Minister mainly responsible for that policy on the part of the Government, and I ask him to appreciate exactly where it is likely to land us, I realise that this Bill is, to all intents and purposes, comparatively a small Bill, but it contains a substantial principle. I do not want to go into questions about the solution of the unemployment problem in a Debate of this kind, but in this Bill we find an example of the kind of philosophy which permeates practically all the legislation of the present Government. There is no prospect at all in their policy of alleviating conditions in the distressed areas. The Crown Colonies which formerly supplied this country with sugar would be in a position to consume some of the manufactured products of this country, but the Government impoverish the Crown Colonies by refusing to take their products and render them unable to purchase the manufactured articles which could be produced in the distressed areas. That statement applies equally to the foreign countries affected.

How does the hon. Member suggest that the home market can be kept going, unless home industry is kept going also? And does he not realise that agriculture is the biggest consumer there is in the country?

I think I indicated at the beginning of my speech how agriculture had been affected. I addressed some farmers in my own constituency on Saturday and reminded them that in what they regarded as the good old days, before there was any agricultural problem, the miners were getting decent wages. They admitted that the miner of all men in the world is the man who requires and who would like to have prime beef, and that when his wages were higher than they are now he was able to purchase what he required in that line. We would solve what is called the beef problem if we gave the miners better wages. If the miners had received justice when they made their last demand for 2s. think of what the result would be. If you multiply the additional wages by the 750,000 people in the industry you must realise how near solution the agricultural problem could be brought in that way. But instead of dealing with the question which is of vital concern to agriculture, that is the question of providing a higher standard of life for the people who are producing capital goods and setting in motion industries that are now standing still in the distressed areas, the Government continually run away from the problem. They merely keep on feeding the farmers and feeding the landlords and even feeding foreign capitalists by means of petty Measures of this kind while skilled British workers are standing idle.

I put it to the Prime Minister that it is time to face that problem as a matter of policy. Unemployment, as revealed by the figures, is going up and all the explanations that have been offered cannot remove the fact that unemployment at present is far beyond the computations of last year. The Government by pursuing their present policy are running away from what could be an approach to a solution of the problem. They are merely perpetuating the conditions in the distressed areas which depend entirely on the production of manufactures for export and they are doing so in order to subsidise agriculture on lines which are considered even by hon. Members opposite to be unsound.

I put it as a point of Order to Mr. Speaker, and I do not question of course anything that Mr. Speaker did in that regard, but, frankly, it requires an overdose of brazenness, I think, to come to this House of Commons and advocate your own personal financial interests, for a person to seek public funds in order that he may personally obtain a financial advantage. Frankly, the time has come when Members of this House ought to endeavour to reflect their constituencies and not the financial interests of Members, and while I do not desire to question Mr. Speaker's Ruling, I say quite frankly that it requires an extra does of brazen-ness on the part of any Member to talk at length about his own financial interests, particularly where public funds are concerned. In municipal government it is not permitted, and members know when to be discreet, but there are persons here in the Government who are prepared to come to the House and to advocate their own financial interests, and apparently regardless of the interests of their constituency. That was the main thing I desired to say, and I think the time has come when the Government themselves ought to realise that, in the interests of good government and of democracy itself, these ramps should cease, and Members who are associated with their own party should at least have the decency to sit quiet when matters of this kind are up in which they are financially concerned.

8.57 p.m.

The last speaker said it was time Members took up the interests of their constituencies and not their own affairs, and therefore, I am prepared to take up the interests of my own constituents in talking about this Bill, which interests the Eastern Counties so vitally. I have often been called upon to speak on sugar-beet and the subsidy, and I do not propose at present to enter into the merits or demerits of the subject. All through my Parliamentary career I have tried to point out to Members of this House and to the various Ministers of Agriculture how the subsidy itself was administered in an inequitable manner. On this occasion and on this Bill I find that again the dice are slightly loaded—in fact, more than slightly loaded—in favour of the factories. The last speaker mentioned private interests which were concerned in the different factories at the present time, and I am glad he mentioned this subject and the amalgamation, because I think it is very important that the Government should preserve their own independence and that the amalgamation, when completed, should be submitted to Parliament. I agree with the Government that it is not a matter for the courts of law to decide upon, because on this occasion it is not the money of the shareholders that is being dealt with; it is really the money that has been spent and is to be spent by the Government in subsidies. Therefore, it is public money, and the amalgamation of these factories is a matter which concerns this House. Of very great importance also is the price at which these companies are going to be formed, and the price at which they are to be valued should be carefully gone into and the matter submitted to this House.

I should now like to go into a little more detail. Clause 3 is one in which the rights of the existing holders of the shares of the present companies are to be altered to the new stock in the new corporation. Among the existing stockholders with rights are the holders of debentures in the present companies already guaranteed by the Government, by His Majesty's Treasury. What is to become of their rights to be secured on the assets of the companies? And what will happen to the Government guarantees now existing? Let us take the balance-sheets of the companies mentioned in the White Paper of the 22nd July, 1935. There we find that the Government were guarantors for all debentures of the Weir Group to the extent of £1,113,600. The Treasury at the present time is guarantor for those debentures. The British Sugar Manufactures, Limited, have £200,000 of debentures not guaranteed by the Treasury. Therefore, the Treasury at present is really guaranteeing practically the whole of the debentures outstanding. Will the Treasury have to meet its guarantees, or is it intended that these debentures should be merged in the debenture stock of the new corporation and covered by the new Treasury debenture guarantee limited to £1,000,000?

Clause 4 is a continuation of Clause 3, and it does not suggest that the old guarantee will be merged in the new £1,000,000 which is to be guaranteed, because it says that the new guarantee will be for debentures to raise working capital. So that, unless the present debentures are paid off by either the present companies, or by the new corporation, or by the Treasury which is acting as guarantor, then the £1,000,000 of new debentures will not be the limit of the debenture stock guaranteed by the Treasury, and there will be added the amount of existing guarantees to the Anglo-Scottish Beet Sugar Corporation, the 2nd Anglo-Scottish, and the West Midland, which amount to over £1,100,000.

I should like to draw the attention of the Minister to Clause 11, where we find that the subsidy is conditonal on the conditional on the contract price being paid for beet, on the Commission's edicts with regard to production, and marketing being complied with, and on British machinery being used and set up in the factories. Obviously it is right that the all-British machinery Clause should be inserted, since it is public money which is going to support the industry, but if British machinery manufacturers are to have this privilege, then I suggest that it is in the interests of the State, and only fair to all machinery manufacturers, that all contracts for supplying machinery and equipping factories should be open to competitive tender, and that such contracts should come within the supervision of the Commission. This is borne out by what happened in the industry in the old days. You will remember, Sir, that it is common knowledge that the Anglo-Scottish group were founded and controlled by persons who were interested in engineering and in manufacturing sugar machinery. I need not give their names to the House. It is well known that he work of building and equipping these factories was placed in the hands of companies in which these people were interested, and I believe I am right in saying that the terms of contracts under which these factories were equipped were that contractors should be paid on the cost of labour, plus material, plus 10 per cent. I do not know who determined the cost of material, but whatever may have been the terms of their contracts, these factories were far more costly in relation to their working capacity than the factories of other companies. It is very important that this point should be well gone into and that the rights of all British manufacturers should be carefully preserved by the Government.

Under Clause 12 the Minister may make orders as to placing sums to reserves to meet contingencies or to equalise dividends or for depreciation. I suggest there should be added to this Clause a provision that as long as the Corporation is in receipt of subsidy or has Treasury guaranteed stock, no class of shares should pay more than a maximum percentage of dividend or of interest, say 5 or 6 per cent. Whatever the Government decided on should come before the House and a maximum should be fixed. I also suggest there should be a provision that any surplus over in any year should be devoted to releasing the Government from the guarantee of debentures. Clause 16 also favours the factories. This Clause is for the purpose of supplementing the subsidy paid under the 1935 Act in respect of the 1935–36 campaign. The subsidy under that Act took no account of capital services and depreciation, but the Minister stated, and it was clear, that it was always intended to make provision for these at a later time. Very little was said about it in those days and the report on the subsidy only glossed over it. We find that some companies have dissipated their reserves, like the Anglo-Dutch group which dissipated £700,000, and, at the same time, have paid enormous dividends. Why should they now have enormous sums from the Treasury for depreciation and dividends this year? On what basis is the £315,000 for depreciation and the £240,000 for capital services calculated? This should be made clear to the House even on the Second Reading of the Bill. We want to know whether these figures are calculated on the accounts of companies this year, and, if so, whether they will be placed before Parliament before the Bill leaves the House.

For growers there are several points in the Bill of great interest. There seems to be some inconsistency in the payments to growers compensating them for poor crops. This is dealt with in Clause 15. The payments to each grower are to be in proportion to the sum which he has already received for the beet under his contract. Suppose in one locality the crop is good, but, generally, is poor. Suppose G has a good crop of 10 tons to the acre, and B has a bad crop of 5 tons to the acre. At 35s. a ton, G will get £17 10s., while B will get only £8 15s. Again, with the supplemental payments of 1s. a ton, G will get 10s. an acre, and B only 5s. The better your crop in a bad year, the more compensation you get. This is a matter into which the Government ought to look. I commend the Bill for the Clause which empowers a levy to be raised on the farmers and growers in order to promote a higher degree of education in the cultivation of beet. This is a matter which will be of great value and one for which the growers will be grateful, because it is the desire of the growers not to rely altogether on the Government subsidy, but to make this crop as self-supporting as possible. If any hope of that kind is held out to them, I am sure they will be very grateful to the Government.

9.10 p.m.

I feel emboldened to enter into this Debate by the permission which was given by the hon. Member for Ogmore (Mr. E. J. Williams), who said it was almost irreligious for anybody who had an interest in the beet sugar industry to join in the Debate. I never grew an acre of sugar beet when I was farming. I presume, therefore, that I have the hon. Member's permission to join in this Debate. The hon. Member spoke largely in the interests of the colliers. I have many colliers in my constituency and, like everyone in the House, I have great sympathy for them. I hope, however, that I shall never defend interests of the colliers or the agriculturists to the detriment of other interests, but will try to deal fairly by both of them. The hon. Member stated that the wages in the colliery industry were dependent upon the export trade. In certain areas that is so, but in other portions of the country wages are dependent upon the home trade. Much more depends on the home trade than ever before because of the fact that the export trade is more difficult. The market for beet sugar is the home market. Agriculture is the biggest section of the home market as a consumer of manufactured articles. It is bigger than all the colliery and quarrying men put together. I see that an hon. Member shakes his head, but he will find that the statistics show my statement to be correct.

Most manufacturers to-day regard it as a necessity that the industry of agriculture should be in a reasonably profitable condition because of its position in the home market. The making of beet sugar is not a purely agricultural question. It concerns the collier very much because of the amount of coal which is used by the industry. The making of a ton of sugar requires the consumption of a ton of coal, and the amount of sugar manufactured leads to the regular work of 2,200 miners. The industry has thus been of great benefit to the colliery industry. We know also that a ton of lime is required for every three tons of sugar and the production of a ton of lime requires a ton of coal. Not only does the collier benefit, therefore, but the lime worker benefits, too. Then there is the jute industry. The hon. Member for Dundee (Miss Horsbrugh) did a great service to her constituency by the interest she took in the supply of jute bags to the sugar industry. A big industry in her district is largely sustained by the sugar industry. Then there is machinery. It may be said that I am getting away from the question of agriculture, but I am trying to show that this is not only an agricultural question, but that it has ramifications outside it, and that its development is much more to the interests of the country generally than is often supposed. A good deal of coal has been used in the production of the iron and steel for the machinery, in addition to what has been used in the actual making of the machinery itself.

We have been repeatedly told of the vast sums of money which have been given to the sugar industry. I am not denying that there have been such large sums of money, well spent, I believe, in most cases; but it is very unfair, in speaking of these sums of money, to state not only the actual money which has been paid to the industry but to add to it the prospective sums which have been lost to the Treasury, sums which were certainly not received by the industry. One thing which I would like the Minister or whoever is to reply to tell us is how much of this money which has been spent has been returned to the Government in the form of revenue. It must be quite a large sum. We ought to have the figures given to us, so that we may know exactly where the money has gone and how much was actually paid to the industry.

The principle of this Bill is sound, because it will keep in being an industry which has far wider ramifications than many people think. Beet is one of the crops which are essential in the rotation of crops—in addition to the production of sugar—for the maintenance of the fertility of the soil; and were I speaking longer I could give other instances showing the advantage which it has been to the country to maintain this industry. The object of this Bill is to maintain this industry and that is an object which I support. There are many details in the Bill which will have to be considered in Committee, but the Committee stage is the time to deal with them, and I now have much pleasure in supporting the Second Reading.

9.18 p.m.

The hon. Member for Stone (Sir J. Lamb) has just given us an interesting dissertation on the interrelationship of industrial and agricultural undertakings. We on this side are prepared to admit that if £40,000,000 of public money is spent the effect will be felt in various directions and by various interests; but that is not the question we have to discuss. We should not, in general, dispute the proposition which the hon. Member has just put before us, but the question with which we are concerned is whether the expenditure of the £40,000,000 which the State has already found for this industry can be justified and whether the proposal in this Bill to spend many more millions of pounds can also be justified. I am very sorry that the hon. and gallant Member for Maldon (Sir E. Ruggles-Brise) has apparently lost his interest in the Debate. Early in the Debate he made an interesting and, in some ways, challenging speech, but as far as I can see his interest in the Debate was exhausted after he had made his speech, for I do not think I have seen him here since. He chided my hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) because, towards the close of his speech, he had stressed the Labour party's view about the Sugar Corporation, and had suggested that as we had arrived at that stage it would be better to devise some form of social ownership than to continue to subsidise private enterprise.

The hon. and gallant Member remarked that this proposition had been repeatedly put to the country in various ways and had been as constantly rejected. I think he cannot have recollected that our policy of socialisation has been gaining an increasing measure of support, and that about 8,000,000 people supported it at the last election. We need only a few more Measures like this and we shall get a great deal more support for our policy of socialisation than we have at this moment. However, as the hon. and gallant Member has departed I think I had better not say any more about his speech, though there were other observations which I had wished to make. The hon. Member for East Fife (Mr. H. Stewart) showed a very particular interest in the Labour party's agricultural experts. I am very glad to know that he is concerned about what Labour experts have to say, and I can assure him that his political education will proceed apace if he devotes more time and attention to what they have to say on various problems. But, obviously, there is room for difference of opinion among even Labour experts, and we on these benches were in no way perturbed by the quotations which he read to us. Neither are we disturbed when he tells us that if we vote against this Measure we shall be voting against the employment of 40,000 men and putting 400,000 acres of land out of production.

But, necessarily, the speech of the Minister in "expounding this policy anew"—to quote his own phrase—must be of paramount interest to those who have listened to the Debate, and I wish to make one or two observations on it. He said that, in the main, the policy embodied in the Bill was a policy of employment and of more production from British soil. I think everybody will agree that this is a problem which, up to the moment, has completely baffled the Minister of Agriculture during his four years of office and from his exposition of this Measure it does not seem to me that there is very much to be hoped from it. I know that he could say, were he going to speak again, "If I have not created more employment in agriculture, at least I have prevented a rapid decline of employment." But I would remind him that as yet there are no positive results from his policy either in terms of employment or of more production from the land. I know the precious hope which he cherishes, but, judging by all that has occurred, that hope is no more likely to be fulfilled by this Bill than by any other scheme he has carried through.

I was interested when the Minister described the gradual change of opinion on this matter in recent years. The recipients of this money during the last 10 years have, no doubt, had their opinions strengthened as to the desirability of the continuance of such Government benevolence. I should imagine that if, in the next 10 years, we spend another £40,000,000 on this subsidy the economic experts and the Minister of Agriculture of the day will in certain circles find a stronger opinion still in support of the policy, because £80,000,000 of public money will then have been spent, instead of £40,000,000. I am not surprised that the Minister should describe how there has been a change and consolidation of opinion. So he comes to-day to submit his case anew. What is his case? Reorganisation to effect economy. In other words, rationalisation of this industry to some degree. I should imagine the net result of that would be the displacement of some labour, judging from the experience we have of rationalisation, if it is to effect some of the economies which the Minister assures us it is likely to effect. He asks: "Should the industry go on?" and answers himself in the affirmative, and talks about sugar from our own soil, and the employment aspect. Then he advances the most amazing argument of all. I understood him to say that we have no industry in this country which can survive, nor can agriculture survive, unprotected from world competition. It is most amazing for a man holding the office he does to make that statement, and for it to be received in silence and acquiescence by hon. Members opposite. During the last four years they have seen by the force of events all their economic theories and all their political notions smashed. To-day the right hon. Gentleman concedes our case, because he has clearly pointed out that the economic system which he and his friends are supposed to stand for cannot survive unsupported, not shored up by the State, not fed by public funds.

Do I understand that on behalf of the party opposite the hon. Member is admitting our case that the protective tariff is a vital necessity?

No such inference may be drawn from my speech. I am merely quoting what the Minister said, that British agriculture cannot, under existing conditions, survive in the face of world competition without protection. Then hon. Members opposite have thrown overboard completely the fundamental economic theories by which they have stood for many generations. All their belief in private enterprise has gone, and private enterprise now cannot function effectively unless it is bolstered up by public money. What is being done here to-day will be only another lever in our hands by which it will be possible for us in future to convince the people of this country that, rather than private enterprise dipping its hands continually into the public purse as it is going to do under this Measure, it would be infinitely better to socialise the industries of this country.

9.31 p.m.

Having regard to the nature of this Bill and to the inadequate explanation given by the Minister, we should look at one or two of the principles which really underly it. I felt a great deal of sympathy with my hon. Friend in his attack on the Minister having conceded a large part of the Socialist case. The Minister tried to make a cheap point on the purely fiscal question of tariffs, but I think that hon. Members behind him should really understand what he is doing to them, and to their ideas and their party. He is the most dangerous man to them. He is the man who really believes in his heart that capitalism on the old basis cannot live. He is the man, if he had his way, who would by any kind of legislation introduce the corporate state to-morrow and do his utmost to work it. He is always very careful about his language when he approaches these matters, but I have been so interested in his approach to the kind of problem covered in this Bill that I keep a fairly close track of his utterances. In a broadcast speech in March, 1933, he said:

It is not right that the Minister should attack the party on these benches as having been responsible for the policy of assisting the growth of sugar beet. He should have told the House the fact, which is that in 1922, before ever there was a Labour Government, the actual amount given by public assistance for the support of this uneconomic industry of growing sugar beet had reached 25s. 8d. per cwt. It was the sudden economy mania of the Coalition Government in seeking to reduce Income Tax which led them to withdraw that assistance and left the industry in such a condition that it came along to the Labour Government, although that Government was in a minority in this House, to ask for immediate assistance. That was the beginning of the policy of the Labour Government in 1924. The Minister did not tell the House, moreover, that, although what was proposed to be done was announced in a statement by the Chancellor of the Exchequer of that year, 1924, when the Bill of 1925 came before this Chamber for its Second Reading, and for passing to its Third Reading, the party on these benches moved an Amendment to provide that, if the subsidy went through, there should be a means of obtaining for the State a share in the vested interest and in the capital values created by the payment of that money. That Amendment was moved by Labour in 1925, and was defeated by the party which the right hon. Gentleman now represents as the Minister of Agriculture. If he begins to tell the House the history of this matter he should give that history complete, and not only little bits of it.

The subsidy was put into operation from 1924 to 1925. I appeared before the public inquiry into the draft scheme, which was submitted in 1933 under the Agricultural Marketing Act by 22 companies, of which 11 were refining companies and 11 beet sugar manufacturing companies. It was stated that the reason for the submission of the scheme in 1933 was that the subsidy had increased the productive capacity for the manufacturing of sugar, either by refining or by beet sugar manufacture, from 2,200,000 tons to 4,000,000 tons. The first result of the payment of the public subsidy had therefore been to make available in this country nearly 100 per cent. greater productive capacity, which could not be used effectively in supplying the consumers' demand. I should have thought that all this would have brought home to the Government the necessity for ending as speedily as might be this form of aid to the growth of sugar beet, or at any rate to their arranging that it should be reduced as early as possible to an economic form.

It is interesting, in the light of the figures submitted at the public inquiry of 1933, to hear the complaints to-night from the Government benches of the hon. Member for Hallam (Mr. L. Smith) and the hon. and gallant Member for Sudbury (Colonel Burton), and in part by the hon. and gallant Member for Rye (Sir G. Courthope), about the proposals in the Bill for limiting the acreage of sugar beet growing. I suppose, if hon. Members had their way, there would be a very considerable expansion of output from sugar beet in this country, and with the growth of the subsidy we should continue to expand the provision of factories throughout the country until there was a loud shout for a scheme of immediate nationalisation. The whole business has, from that point of view, proved itself to be entirely unecenomic and very foolish.

When you look at the actual financial results, I do not think I should be putting it too strongly to say that this sugar business has indeed been a sticky and sickly mess. It has been a disgraceful example of the misuse of public funds. You have had, in the course of the latest period of subsidy, that is from 1925, the granting, either by direct subsidy or by the remission of excise duties, if you include the current year, of something like £50,000,000 sterling. It really does not do for my old friend the hon. Member for Stone (Sir J. Lamb) to put up the argument in this House about the excise duty, as he has done recently. He was repeating the kind of argument used by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sparkbrook (Mr. Amery) in a previous Debate, that if an industry pays what is due from it in excise duty and Income Tax and the like, it is repaying what the Treasury has granted.

If the hon. Member for Stone thinks that that is a real point of view from which to treat the payments which are paid to the Treasury in Income Tax, Stamp Duties and the like—

Does the right hon. Member for Hillsborough (Mr. Alexander) consider his income as one total income without taking Income Tax from it, or not?

Surely, the hon. Member can see that if he were to apply the doctrine he has just mentioned to every other industry in the country, a completely chaotic condition would be produced. He ought to know that by this time. I am sure that he does, because he once accompanied me to the cane-growing centre in Quesnsland, when he happened to be with me on a visit, and I am sure that he knows the condition which attaches to all the sugar grown and sent to this country, and that even with Empire sugar sent from abroad there is a higher rate of duty to be paid by those who handle it and refine it in this country. If a direct advantage is given to the manufacturers of beet sugar in this country as against the general rate charged to other manufacturers of sugar, surely that is the equivalent of a sacrifice by the Treasury, and is equal to a cash grant to the industry receiving the advantage.

Does the right hon. Member not remember that the price of that sugar was far higher than it was in this country?

I am prepared to meet that point. The hon. Member wants to get away from the questions which are pinning him down. He is now referring to the fact that in that country they were attempting the completely uneconomic proposal of producing cane sugar in competition with other tropical countries at very high white-labour rates of wages, and they had, if they were to make anything of it, to dump abroad the surplus of their cane sugar production, and in consequence they charged very high prices to their home population in Australia. That is no reason why we should follow with similar folly in this country, but that is exactly the kind of proposal that hon. Members are making.

I want for a few moments to turn to the history of the procedure in regard to what at one time was called a reasonable liquidation of the subsidy scheme. I would remind the House that it was as far back as March, 1932, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was so concerned about the amount of money which had been paid out from the Treasury to the sugar beet industry that he promised a public and impartial inquiry into the scheme. By March, 1933, nothing had been done with regard to the appointment of that committee. When a question was put to him in the House, the Chancellor of the Exchequer said, however, that the interests concerned had been consulting and that the matter would be dealt with probably at a later date. Nevertheless, nothing was done for a further 12 months, until an announcement was made in March, 1934, by the Minister of Agriculture himself, and he made no apology for having been instrumental in bringing the interests together with a view to getting them to agree on some scheme to meet the situation as it then existed. We soon discovered what had been happening. Within a few weeks there was announced the appointment of the Committee which is now referred to as the Greene Com- mittee. Three weeks after the announcement of the appointment of that impartial Committee, we received the draft scheme under the Marketing Act to which I referred just now. There was to be a board consisting of representatives of 11 refining companies and 11 sugar beet manufacturing companies, not as my hon. Friend put it this afternoon two boards, but a joint board, and it was proposed in that scheme to set up a complete monopoly for the future both in regard to the refining and the manufacturing of sugar whether from beet or from cane.

We had a public inquiry, and what happened? In the two years that intervened between the Chancellor of the Exchequer's first announcement in March, 1932, and the ultimate Report of the Greene Committee in 1934, there were all kinds of wire pulling and running to and fro going on. I happen to know, as did other people in the industry, that there was a proposal at that time to transfer the bulk of the subsidy into a levy on the consumers at the rate of 2s. 4d. a cwt. Although there was a public inquiry by the Minister under the Agricultural Marketing Act, we could not get any information, and' when the principal witness for the sugar beet manufacturers was in the box, answering questions on this matter, he said it would be a breach of confidence with the Ministry to reveal what was going on. But there was such an outcry of public opinion that even the Minister himself could not continue with these provisional marketing schemes. As a result we had the submission of evidence to the Greene Committee.

Two months after the public inquiry into the marketing scheme had finished, the beet-sugar manufacturing interests published, in the London "Times" of 9th July, 1934, a complete statement of their evidence before the Greene Committee and, in effect, admitted all the charges that were being made against them of seeking a private monopoly in this great industry. After the receipt of that evidence, together with our evidence on the consumers' side, the Greene Committee produced a logical, reasoned and detailed report, which showed clearly that the whole basis of the subsidy had been uneconomic and ought to be ended. Then the Minister and his Department, who had been so busily engaged with the private profit-seeking interests during that long intereval, determined not to allow the Majority Report, presented by the impartial Committee appointed by his own Government to inquire into the matter, to be carried into effect. He produced the mongrel scheme which is now before the House.

I would say that the attitude of the Minister has been the following: Admittedly there were many things proposed under the Marketing Scheme which might have been difficult in view of the great outcry which had arisen, but I think the policy of the Government now must be to proceed more steadily and more consistently on to a corporate basis in the future. The Government feels that it has a great opportunity to announce this as a first instalment in a long policy for agriculture, and that is what the Minister did this afternoon. He said that this is a first instalment.

There are the Agricultural Marketing Act, the Wheat Act, and a number of others. I am perfectly prepared to stand by this policy.

The Agricultural Marketing Act is a fairly small amendment of previous Acts. The Minister said that the Agricultural Marketing Act of 1934 would have to be extended temporarily for another 15 or 16 months. He has never yet settled the meat policy either with the Dominions or with the Agentine. In any case, the Minister said this afternoon, in effect, that this Bill is a very important instalment in a long-term policy that he is submitting for agriculture. That policy is to be on a corporate State basis. I do not know of anything more vicious than the kind of structure which is laid down in this Bill.

The hon. and gallant Member for Rye, who had experience in the early agitation from the agricultural side for the growth of this industry and who has later had experience in the actual management of a successful company enjoying public benefit, is very nervous about this Bill, and has put a few searching questions to the Minister this afternoon. The hon. and gallant Member can see great dangers, from his point of view, in the compulsory amalgamation provisions. The hon. and gallant Member for Sudbury, who is interested in agriculture but also very interested in the financial returns of a shipping company with which he is concerned, is a little bit nervous as to how this amalgamation scheme will affect him. But when I look at the whole ideal behind the Bill, I cannot for the life of me see why the hon. and gallant Member for Eye or the hon. and gallant Member for Sudbury need be very alarmed, because so far as they are concerned everything will be all right. They may have to enter into an amalgamation, but they will be covered by a licensing Commission under Clause 20, according to which, as my hon. Friend the Member for East Ham (Mr. Barnes) said, they will have all the advantages of a monopoly enclosure in future, just as the landlords in the past got an advantage from the enclosure of land under the Enclosure Act. If they are able to maintain the kind of Government the Minister stands for, they will for all time be able to maintain profits on a fixed basis, and they will be able to do that with the help of a subsidy paid out of public funds.

I think this is one of the most scandalous and terrible things that we have seen in the industrial and commercial history of this country. Whatever may be said about Tory and Liberal Parliaments of the last few hundred years, I think it is true to say that until the advent of the so-called National Government there had never been in 200 years the granting of monopoly powers by Statute without the most specific conditions being laid down both with regard to the capital involved in those monopolies and with regard to the interests of the consumers. If you look, for example, at the ordinary public utility basis, whether in the case of gas, electricity or water undertakings, there is always a maximum fixed interest at the outset of the scheme, and, if there should perchance be rising profits in these monopolies, then Parliament has always insisted that the price of the commodity to the consumer must go down before the profits distributed were increased. There is no such safeguard here. You are giving, not only the right of the wide British democracy, but the rights of independent capitalists in this country, into the hands of a limited number of monopolists, and you are giving those rights away, in the case of sugar, not because the oldest established part of the sugar industry really requires it; you are giving them away in order to meet an immediate clamour from one side only of the population.

In criticising the sugar industry, one must always be fair to the old refining side. I hold no special brief for it at all, but, as I recollect the controversy of 12 or 14 years ago, the refiners in this country never sought this State assistance at any time. I remember at that time going to see—and I honour his memory for it—the late Charles Lyle, who at that time was a very prominent director of Tate and Lyle. In January, 1925, he sent for me to come down to his office in Mincing Lane while the Bill of 1925 was going through the House, and he put his position to me very plainly indeed. He said to me, "You have been very frank about your opposition to the Bill. I also, and my firm, have been in opposition to the Bill. The Minister,"—the present Lord Halifax—"is apparently now insisting on forcing the Bill through the House in its present form, and, therefore, I want to be frank with you. I want you to understand that, although we have never sought public funds in this matter, there is only one course now for my firm to adopt. If beet sugar is to have the bounty of the State as against the ordinary capitalist basis that I have for my refining, then there is only one thing for me to do, and that is to go into beet sugar also for my own purposes, and take my share of the plunder." In his office that morning, in January, 1925, the late Charles Lyle added these words: He said, "Mr. Alexander, I make this prophecy to you, that at the end of the 10-years subsidy period any really efficient manufacturer of beet sugar will be able, with the subsidy that is offered, to walk out of the business with his capital repaid. He can leave the factory as a wasting asset, without any reference to it. And in the meantime he will have received on his capital during that period at least from 10 to 15 per cent."—out of public funds.

The honesty of the statement of that sugar refiner to me that morning has been proved up to the hilt by the experience of the last 12 years. I do not remember ever having seen a prophecy so completely fulfilled. Look at Table 21 in Chapter 4 of the Greene Report. Look at the actual net balances of assets of the sugar refining companies. Look at the position. The great majority of the sugar manufactories to-day could be closed up to-morrow without any real hardship to either their shareholders or their directors, for during the period of the subsidy they have, either by depreciation, or by share bonus, or by the distribution of reserves, repaid their capital. I hear an hon. and gallant Member opposite say that there are some that have not paid, but he has had a large experience of this matter, and I leave him to judge from the returns in the Greene Committee's Report. It is no use his saying that he has a few shares in a sugar factory which does not pay; you can take the audited accounts in the Government Report. In circumstances revealed in that report, I say to any hon. Member opposite who really aims at being a public servant that it is nothing short of a public scandal that hon. Members in these circumstances, some of them directly interested in the matter, should be voting public money on that basis for the maintenance and continuance of an industry which is uneconomic, but to which, although they admit that it can never be made to pay without the subsidy, they are prepared to go on distributing largesse with this money.

I want to add one or two words about a point that was made this afternoon with reference to the consumer. The Minister of Agriculture said that no doubt, when I got up, I should take the point of view of the consumer. We make no apology for that. The consumers in this country are always more numerous, and their interest is greater, than the producers or the distributors put together. [An HON. MEMBER: "Or any party."] Or any party. And, when we speak for an organisation of consumers, we speak, not for a limited vested interest, but for an organisation which admits any member of the State at large, on the ground floor, with equal freedom and equal rights. We have, therefore, no hesitation at any time, in spite of the smiles with which the remark was made, in speaking here for the organised consumers. The majority of my hon. Friends on these benches represent great sections of producers in this country, but a majority of them are also members of the consumers' organisation, and we have never had any hesitation in speaking for them in the country.

Let us look at this point about the consumer. Let us first of all remember, when reference is made to the cheapness of sugar in this country, that sugar is not cheap to-day in this country as compared with pre-war. My hon. Friend was quite right to call attention to the fact that before 1914 we had sugar varying in price retail from 1½d. to l¾d. per 1b. It would be as cheap as that to-day but for one thing, and that is that the Chancellor of the Exchequer gets a duty of 11s. 8d. a cwt. Our reason for saying to the House to-night that there is very definitely something to be said for the consumer in this matter is that the whole structure of the continuance of this subsidy scheme depends not only upon the direct payments made from the Treasury, but also upon the Excise remission, and, therefore, the extent to which you say the industry requires aid, and that aid is to come from Excise remission as well as from direct payments, you postulate in this Act of Parliament a permanent retention of the tax on sugar as a food of 11s. 8d. a cwt. We have a right, speaking on behalf of the consumer, to say that, if that is the position, the consumer is not being treated fairly. Of course I know that the revolution of which the Minister of Agriculture spoke in his wireless broadcast includes a turning over to taxation of food. Actually to-day we are paying about £20,000,000 per annum in taxation on food more than we were in 1931, and we surely have a right to protest about an Act being passed through the House which will maintain practically permanently a duty of 11s. 8d. per cwt. on sugar.

If the argument is to be put that it is absolutely vital and necessary for agriculture, and especially for the rotation of crops, I should like the Parliamentary Secretary, who is going to reply, to tell us what exactly were the arrangements made by British agriculture for the rotation of crops before the sugar subsidy was introduced. What were you doing for rotation of cropsbefore1912? Of course, it is a matter of great humour to the Minister of Agriculture that you did not happen to be growing sugar beet, but you had no difficulty at all in finding alternative crops to secure the necessary treatment of the soil and the necessary preparation for the growth of wheat, barley and other agricultural crops. There is not the slightest doubt that, in putting up that argument of the rotation of crops, you are really beating the air, because it would not be in the least difficult to arrange an effective rotation of crops, if you were not going to grow another ton of sugar beet. [An HON. MEMBER: "You would have to agree with the farmers to grow it."] I thank my hon. Friend for the interruption. It is just as well to remind the Minister that only 10 per cent. of the farmers grow sugar beet at all. [An HON. MEMBER: "What crops do you suggest to take its place?"] There are all kinds of crops. [ Interruption. ] The hon. Member may not be enamoured of my co-operative experience of farming, but we go in for rotation of crops on farms where we do not grow sugar beet. There is no difficulty about that at all.

Now I come to the final point that I think the House ought to consider, and that is the basis of the opposition tonight to the Bill. I think there is a great deal to be said for what has been advanced both from the Liberal and our own benches and the benches behind the Government for the maintenance of the employment that has grown up, no doubt in an uneconomic industry, and that it should not be terminated in such a way as to bring hardship. But surely we are right when we submit that, if you grant that, and that for the time being we ought to take some pains not to interfere with employment in agricultural districts which has been engendered by this large subsidy, at any rate for the rest of the life of this industry, in view of the experience we have had, the whole of the industry so subsidised by public funds ought to be under public control. What is the difficulty about it? The Minister of Agriculture will be receiving a report from the Sugar Commission as to the progress made with regard to amalgamation. The hon. and gallant baronet the Member for Rye feared that, if voluntary amalgamation does not go ahead quickly enough, the Minister will take steps to make them go a little faster. Evidently there is no difficulty about it from that point of view. If, with your great majority, you can pass a Bill which gives you power for compulsory amalgamation you can with just as great ease, and with far greater social justice, at the same time and in the same way pass a motion that that property, built up entirely out of public funds, should for the remainder of its life pass into public control, and that public control should be a condition of the continuance of the subsidy. We also put into it that, if it is found that it is necessary to reduce the subsidy, the reduction should be commenced at once and it should be done gradually and steadily so as not to bring real hardship upon the industry, and the other vital point is that you should not apply a provision in regard to the protection of labour to one section of the industry only.

I should say, from what I have heard from hon. Friends interested in trade union work and from the line that they have taken, that they are not satisfied even with the provision in that direction but, if there is to be a continuance of this help to the industry, it must also apply to the protection of the workers in the fields as well as in the factories. There will, of course, be a great struggle behind the scenes. One of the grave features of the new commercial and industrial policy of the Government ever since 1931 in its new fiscal outlook and its new fiscal manipulation has been that you have had growing up the back-stair work, the log-rolling, the wire-pulling, the back-scratching which has always been prophesied as likely to happen as soon as you begin to dip into the public purse for the purpose of private profit. In the meantime these negotiations, these wire-pullings, will go on for I feel certain that, while we will do anything we can on these benches to prevent immediate hardship to the workers engaged in the industry, we shall be praised and not blamed in the country for standing for the public interest against what has been one of the greatest ramps in modern history.

10.12 p.m.

The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hills- borough (Mr. A. V. Alexander), reminds me of Bismarck, who once said:

In the White Paper that was issued last July it was stated that the Government intended to continue to assist the beet sugar industry, without any specific limitation of the period during which assistance may be given, upon agricultural grounds, and it is mainly and primarily upon agricultural grounds that I shall ask the House to consider this Bill. With comparatively few exceptions I think the Debate has shown that the House is of opinion that the industry should be continued, for I do not gather from the Amendment, or from the speeches in support of it, that it is the desire of the party opposite to terminate the industry. It is true that two years ago the party opposite were anxious to strangle their own child. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Oh, yes. To-day they are prepared to repent, but they are proposing to keep it alive in a sort of home for incurables. In short, we are parting company with the party opposite in regard to the methods by which the industry shall be carried on in the future, because both they and we apparently desire it to be continued in some shape or form.

The hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams), who opened the Debate, before leading up to what I suppose were his main constructive proposals, dealt at some length with the previous history of the industry and made certain remarks about foreign shareholders and English shareholders and so forth, and, in view of strictures upon the previous nature and conduct of the industry, and despite the criticism of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillsborough, I cannot help reminding that party and the House once again that the Socialist party in 1924 had a very considerable responsibility in starting this industry upon the present lines.

I know that the right hon. Gentleman goes back much further, to 1912, when one factory started, but the main move forward, the substantial move, was made in 1924, when the party opposite were in office. I do not know why the right hon. Gentleman should be so ashamed of the part they played in this matter, and so sensitive when any responsibility for it is attributed to them. As a matter of fact, it was a considerable achievement and it did a great deal, as it should do, in the way of providing more employment. I think that the Socialist party may well be somewhat proud of the part they played in those days. As for the result—we talk of the expenditure of £40,000,000 as if there was no result. There has been a very considerable and satisfactory result. Is the existence of nearly 400,000 acres of well tilled and well cultivated land growing beet no result? Is it not a national asset with which we ought to be somewhat satisfied? Is it no result that we keep in employment some 30,000 or 40,000 persons who would inevitably leave agriculture and go back to the towns, were it not for the industry? Of course, the industry has not done all that was intended, but its authors are entitled to have some measure of praise.

The hon. Member for Don Valley led up to his constructive proposals, and I gather from the Amendment that the method the party opposite would propose to take in dealing with this industry would be to put it under a system of public ownership and control. I waited with great interest to hear from the hon. Gentleman in what way his method of public ownership and control would be better for the State than the method outlined in the Bill. The first thing one would like to know is, what does he mean in this case by public ownership and control? I know that it is recommended because it is more simple and less complex than the proposal in the Bill. That is true; I admit that, but the methods of the burglar are less complicated than those of the Income Tax gatherer; and confiscation is vastly simpler. I would ask what public ownership and control mean. Does the hon. Member intend to confiscate the factories or to buy them up? If he intends to buy them up, then at what price? We have no indication at all of important items of that kind.

I think that in judging the merits or otherwise of the proposal put forward by the hon. Gentleman and his friends, we ought to know the principles upon which the transfer of these factories to public ownership and control would be carried out. Does the hon. Gentleman intend to confiscate the refineries too? Does he mean to carry on the factories separately from the refineries under public ownership? By what methods does he propose to deal with the refineries? What about the sugar beet growers? As I understand it, the system of public ownership and control, in other words, nationalisation, involves the acquisition by the State of the means of production, distribution and exchange. It is highly improbable, therefore, that the hon. Member and his friends could leave out the growers in the sugar beet industry. What about management? Is he prepared to find the officials, under his system, to deal with this extremely complicated and difficult industry? Is he so dissatisfied with the results which have been achieved up to date? In 1924–25 manufacturing costs were 31s. 6d. a ton of beet, but in 1933–4 they had gone down to 11s. 11d. a ton. That is a remarkable example of efficiency in the carrying on of the industry. Could we expect a similar proportionate decrease of manufacturing costs under State management by the nominees of a Socialist Government? Where is the incentive to efficiency if profit-making, ex hypothesi, is removed? How we could expect more efficiency under State management than under the existing management it is difficult to conceive.

The hon. Member for the Forest of Dean (Mr. Price) was interested in a public utility proposal. I wonder if that analogy really holds. I suppose he means that this industry could be operated on the lines of the gas industry, the electric light industry or the Post Office. There is, however, the very vital distinction that in regard to the gas and electric light industries the more gas or electricity you sell, and the more telephone calls are put through, the cheaper your sales. In the case of the sugar industry, if you are going to allow an indefinite expansion of the industry, and if you are going to do everything to encourage it, the more sugar you sell the greater the need for public assistance and the greater the need for the subsidy. If that be so, and if it be a true analogy between this industry and the Post Office, then we ought to look with exceeding disfavour upon, the efforts of the Postmaster-General to extend his business.

Whatever system you operate in the sugar industry under present conditions, whether it be the system proposed under the Bill or public control and nationalisation, a subsidy will be required. If the industry is to be kept alive you must have a price for the raw sugar which will pay the industry, or you must help it by subsidy or some other form of assistance, no matter whether the control be public or private. The hon. Member for Don Valley talked about this being a perpetual subsidy, and in his Amendment he says that in the Bill there is no provision for a progressive reduction. It is germane to point out that the history of this industry shows a very considerable reduction of the subsidy from 19s. 6d. to 13s., 7s. 3d., 5s. 8d., and the figure proposed under the Bill on a comparable basis is 4s. 9d. There is not a great deal of room for the con- tinuous progressive reduction suggested by the hon. Member for Don Valley, but he seemed to think otherwise. Under his system, how is he going to get greater progression in the decline of the subsidy? Sugar under his system cannot be independent of world prices. How can it be independent? At the present moment the price of sugar in this country depends on world prices, and a subsidy of 4s. 9d. per cwt. is based upon a raw sugar price of 5s. per cwt. If it falls from 5s. to 4s. 9d. the subsidy goes down proportionately. As evidence of the reduction in cost as a result of this progressive reduction these figures are worthy of attention. In 1934 the subsidy was £4,450,000, in 1936 it is estimated at £2,750,000. I do not see how under any system of public ownership you are going to accelerate the rate of degression. The hon. Member for the Forest of Dean talked about a tapering subsidy, but unless the hon. Member can show some way of avoiding the connection between the price of sugar in this country and the raw price of sugar abroad ha must follow some such proposal as that in the Bill.

A complaint has been made that there is no provision which affects the wages paid to the labourers. That matter was considered by the Greene Committee who were unable to make any recommendations, the reason being that agricultural wages are regulated under the Agricultural Wages Act, and although the case may be different in connection with piece workers I am told that while there has been no general application for the fixing of piece rates there has been some difficulty in accepting such applications for such reasons as variation in the quality of the soil. In any event, whether under public ownership or not I do not see how you can fix wages for any body of workers apart from a consideration of the capacity of the industry to pay them. Indeed, the sugar-beet industry has enabled better wages to be paid to this section of agricultural labourers. Wages have gone up as a result of the policy of the Government. Since November, 1933, the increase in agricultural wages in England and Wales has been 1s. 4d. per week whereas in the principal sugar-beet areas it has been 1s. 8½d. What is the alternative of the party opposite? If they nationalise the land they would have to pay the farmers a salary and the labourers a wage entirely irrespective of the value of the crops.

Now I come to the right hon. Member for Hillsborough. I gather from the right hon. Gentleman and the Amendment that there are no safeguards for the consumer in the Bill. I should have thought that very seldom in the history of Parliament has a Bill been presented which has been so completely honeycombed with safeguards for the consumers. I can assure him that the Coal Mines Act pales into insignificance compared with it in the matter of providing safeguards for the consumer. In the history of this industry the consumers have not done so badly. In 1924 when a Socialist Government was responsible for the original proposal, the price of sugar was 5½d. per 1b. and it is now 2¼d. per 1b. Since 1924 the wicked refiners have gone on refining and since 1933 there has been in existence what an hon. Member opposite called an unholy agreement between the refiners and the factories. In spite of that fact, with the exception I believe of one of the Scandinavian countries, sugar is cheaper here to-day than anywhere else in the world. I submit that it is relevant to observe that the maintenance of our home sugar production has played no little part in stabilising the price and when we take our minds back to the sugar crisis in 1923 when the price was 25s. 9d. a cwt. or to 1920 when the consumer was paying 11½d. a lb. for sugar, one may be pardoned for thinking that if in those days there had been a sugar production in this country of even 500,000 tons it would have tended to stabilise the price and to prevent such a rise. We have heard a great deal about the refiners' monopoly and on that point which, I gather, is a sore point with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillsborough, I notice the following statement in the Greene Committee's report.

I have the evidence here in my bag and I will with great pleasure show it to the hon. Gentleman afterwards if he so desires.

I am surprised that the right hon. Gentleman did not offer it to the Committee. I think it will be agreed that it is desirable to preserve as far as possible the closest cooperation between the refining interests and the factories. If this is to be achieved there must be either State control of the refining industry or else steps must be taken to avoid a price cutting war between the refiners and the factories. The only result of curtailing the factories output and reducing their receipts to an uneconomic point, would be to cause further demands upon State assistance. The Government have adopted the procedure of avoiding disagreement and a war between these interests by means of an industrial agreement which in due course will be submitted to the House. The Sugar Commission will have to approve the arrangements for production and marketing by the Corporation of white sugar. As regards the licensing, in the event of strong new competition arising it might be desirable to introduce a licensing scheme to protect the factories and the refineries against the consequences. A perusal of the Bill will show that in order to get a licensing scheme they will have to pass over no less than ten very formidable hurdles, and in looking through the Bill I think I may say that it would be easier for a rich refiner to get through the eye of a needle than to get over these hurdles.

One other point was made from those benches. It was complained that the Commission does not include representatives of consumers and of labour. I am not at all sure, on consideration, that that would be very desirable, because it would only mean setting up a ^body representing sectional interests. If it is desirable that representatives of consumers and of labour should be on the Commission, why should there not also be representatives of the factories, refineries, farmers, grocers, and every conceivable interest affected by the Bill? That is why, on the whole, I think it is better to have this body independent and impartial, whose only relation to the sugar industry is that its members consume sugar. A point has been made in regard to capitalisation. In an industry like this, in which the public is greatly interested and public money is engaged, the amalgamation of factories has been recommended, and once you decide on amalgamation the rest follows almost automatically—the control and approval of interest rates, and so on; and it also follows that the State, as providing a return on capital, must demand the utmost economy from the factories. It also means that beet growers shall get their fair share and that proper arrangements between factories and refiners shall be made. All those things are provided for in the Bill.

The hon. and gallant Member for Rye (Sir G. Courthope) raised a point in connection with the amount of capital, but I do not think I can say anything more on that than was said by my right hon. Friend at the beginning of the Debate. It is a matter which no doubt will be raised during the Committee stage, and I think it will be best to leave it to be discussed then. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Sudbury (Colonel Burton) complained that there was too much Socialism in this Bill. How far that complaint appears to be justified we have already heard from the Opposition Benches. Whether or not the Bill is a small dose of Socialism, I would remind hon. Members that it is common medical practice to inject small doses of virulent bacilli into a patient in order to secure for him some sort of immunity. We are providing my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Sudbury with a suitable anti-toxin. The point with regard to the limitation of production is one with which I have considerable sympathy, but it must be apparent to those who raise it that if there is no limitation of production there will be no limitation of State assistance, and we shall never come to the end of the position. Limitation would in practice mean limitation of the quantity of sugar produced rather than limitation by acreage.

I come to the case made by hon. Gentlemen in the Liberal party. When I took my seat here and the Debate began, I watched with some interest the faces of hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway because I knew from their past record their views on this industry. When I saw the gloom upon their faces and the stern look of the party, I came to the conclusion that they were donning once more the mask of the executioner. When I heard the speech of the hon. Member for West Middlesbrough (Mr. K. Griffith) who was speaking for his party, it became apparent, however, that they were not to don the mask of the executioner, but were to use instruments of torture. For the policy of the Liberal party is, "We do not seek to determine the industry here and now; we will not execute it here and now, but we will execute it by 'descending steps.'"

I had thought of interrupting the hon. Gentleman during his speech, but he gives me the opportunity of saying what I would have said then. The Greene Committee recommended the compensation of the beet growers; in other words they recommended paying the farmers not to grow beet. They made no recommendation for compensation in regard to anybody else—factories, employés or shareholders. When the hon. Gentleman realises the difference, he will find that his interruption is not very well founded. His policy is to strangle this industry by slow degrees. That means the industry is to be subjected to annually increasing loss. What industry could be carried on for a year or two years on a policy of that kind? No business man would leave his money in for a moment, and no manager or employé would stay a day longer than he need. It is preposterous to believe that you can settle a matter of this kind by a slow process of descending steps and not expect the industry to close down at once. It is obvious that the solution, such as it is, proposed by the Liberal party is not a solution at all. Its only purpose is to enable them to say that they did not propose the immediate extinction of the industry. After all, the reasons for maintaining this industry must be as obvious to them as it was to their representatives in East Anglia. They are primarily agricultural reasons. The beet crop is of great value as a fallow crop. The right hon. Gentleman opposite questioned the need for rotation or for an alternative crop.

I beg his pardon, but I got the impression that he regarded the beet crop as one which was easily replaceable by some other crop, though the Greene Committee gave no indication that they knew of any satisfactory alternative crop, and did not recommend one, and I do not believe that agriculturists either in this House or outside it could recommend an alternative crop for the beet crop in the rotation system. Is it suggested that farmers could grow mangolds, or swedes or turnips? No doubt those were the crops before the War. Would hon. Members opposite replace the 400,000 acres of beet with 400,000 acres of mangolds? As it is not suggested that the farmers should grow asparagus or other vegetable crops, I suppose they would have to be root crops. The beet crop is a valuable cash crop. The farmer gets his money back as the crop grows. The other root crops do not turn into money until they have been turned into cattle, and so, theoretically at any rate, we should have to turn £6,000,000 or £7,000,000 of beet crop into mangolds and turn them, in turn, into cattle before the farmer got his money back; and in the present state of agriculture such a proceeding would be nothing short of disastrous. And supposing more cattle were raised as a result, and no other result could be produced, we should then have a demand for more payments as cattle subsidy, and so on.

That is exactly the same type of argument as we were given on wheat and on dairy produce, and it might be applied to every other agricultural product.

I quite agree, and that supports my argument as to the value of beet as being a cash crop and one for which there is an assured market, so that the farmer can plan his operations with some degree of stability. There is the further value that the beet crop brings him into contact with factory experts and growers. The factory expert has proved to be of value to farmers. On the question of an alternative crop, no serious alternative can possibly be put forward, and if there is no alternative crop and these acres are to go out of cultivation that would involve an appalling national loss. Employment is a matter of interest to the Liberal party. Direct employment is given by beet growing to some 30,000 or 40,000 men on the land and to some 9,000 in the factories. They may not all be employed full-time, but some 20,000 man-years of employment may be the direct result. To the 30,000 or 40,000 individuals who may lose their jobs it is not much consolation to be told "You need not worry about it, because you have not lost a man-year of employment."

Then there is the question of indirect employment. I believe that some 3,000,000 tons of coal are purchased annually by the beet sugar factories. I do not know what that amounts to in employment, but it may mean work for something like 10,000 miners. An hon. Member opposite says "1,500"—and even that is a substantial addition to employment in coal mining. It was pointed out in the May Committee Report some years ago that £250 was the cost of providing for one man, directly and indirectly. On that basis it would cost £7,500,000 to employ 30,000 men, directly or indirectly. At any rate that is the kind of statement which I used to read in the Liberal green books years ago. The beet sugar industry directly employs 30,000 men at a cost, subsidy and Excise abatement together of about £5,000,000. I suggested that the main consideration behind this Bill was the interest of our agriculture, and that the Government were primarily interested in the factories through the services that they render to our agriculture, and that the factories should be operated to render the greatest possible service to agriculture at the least cost to the Exchequer. Sometimes it has been

said that our agriculture policy has been of a temporary or short-term character. In the chaotic state of world conditions that was inevitable; but to-day, so far as an important section of our agricultural industry is concerned, we are laying the basis of a long term policy, and planning the growing of sugar beet and therefore the cultivation of a large acreage of our land on a stable foundation. Producers and processers can henceforth plan their operations in a permanent way, to make themselves more and more efficient and to carry on their industry with the highest possible skill. Therefore I would ask right hon. and hon. Members in considering this matter to keep before their eyes the picture of hundreds of thousands of acres better tilled and better cultivated as the result of this Bill, and thousands of persons and their families deriving their livelihood from it. In view of the network of safeguards and devices to protect the State from extravagance and the consumer from exploitation, I hope that the House will think the expenditure involved will amply justify the retention and prospective improvement of an important national asset.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

The House divided: Ayes, 235; Noes, 125.

Division No. 30.]

AYES

[10 55 p.m.

Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J.

Bullock, Capt. M.

Dorman-Smith, Major R. H.

Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.)

Burghley, Lord

Duckworth, G. A. V. (Salop)

Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G.

Butler, R. A.

Dugdale, Major T. L.

Albery, I. J.

Campbell, Sir E. T.

Duggan, H. J.

Amery, Rt. Hon. L. C. M. S.

Cartland, J. R. H.

Duncan, J. A. L.

Anderson, Sir A. Garrett (C. of Ldn.)

Carver, Major W. H.

Dunglass, Lord

Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

Castlereagh, Viscount

Dunne, P. R. R.

Apsley, Lord

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir A. (Br. W.)

Eastwood, J. F.

Aske, Sir R. W.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N.(Edgb't'n)

Eckersley, P. T.

Astor, Major Hon. J. J.(Dover)

Channon, H.

Eden, Rt. Hon. A.

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Chapman, A. (Rutherglen)

Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

Baldwin-Webb, Col. J.

Clydesdale, Marquess of

Ellis, Sir G.

Balfour, G. (Hampstead)

Cobb, Sir C. S.

Elmley, Viscount

Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet)

Collins, Rt. Hon. Sir G. P.

Emrys-Evans, P. V.

Balniel, Lord

Colville, Lt.-Col. D. J.

Errington, E.

Beauchamp, Sir B. C.

Cook, T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.)

Erskine Hill, A G.

Beaumont, Hon. R.E. B. (Portsm'h)

Cooke, J.D. (Hammersmith, S.)

Everard, W. L.

Bird, Sir R. B.

Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh, W.)

Fraser, Capt. Sir I.

Blindell, Sir J.

Courthope, Col. Sir G. L.

Fremantle, Sir F. E.

Borodale, Viscount

Craddock, Sir R. H.

Furness, S. N.

Bossom, A, C.

Cranborne, Viscount

Fyfe, D. P. M.

Boulton, W. W.

Craven-Ellis, W.

Ganzoni, Sir J.

Bower, Comdr. R. T.

Critchley, A.

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir J.

Braithwaite, Major A. N.

Crooke, J. S.

Gluckstein, L. H.

Brass, Sir W.

Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C.

Goodman, Col. A. W.

Briscoe, Capt. R. G.

Cross, R. H.

Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral)

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Crowder, J. F. E.

Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester)

Brown, Col. D. C.(Hexham)

Davies, C. (Montgomery)

Gridley, Sir A. B.

Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith)

Davies, Major G. F. (Yeovil)

Grimston, R. V.

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury)

De Chair, S. S.

Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Drake)

Bull, B. B.

Denman, Hon. R. D.

Guest, Hon. I. (Brecon and Radnor)

Guest, Maj. Hon. O. (C'mb'rw'll,N.W.)

Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

Sandys, E. D.

Gunston, Capt. D. W.

Maxwell, S. A.

Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir P.

Guy, J. C. M.

Mayhew. Lt.-Col. J.

Scott, Lord William

Hacking, Rt. Hon. D. H.

Mills, Sir F. (Leyton, E.)

Shakespeare, G. H.

Hamilton, Sir G. C.

Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree)

Hanbury, Sir C.

Morgan, R. H.

Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar)

Harvey, G.

Morrison, W. S. (Cirencester)

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A.

Heligers, Captain F. F. A.

Muirhead, Lt. Col. A. J.

Smiles, Lieut.-Colonel Sir W. D.

Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P.

Munro, P. M.

Smith, L. W. (Hallam)

Hepburn, P.G. T. Buchan-

Mac Donald, Rt. Hn. J. R. (Scot. U.)

Somervell, Sir D. B. (Crewe)

Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth)

Nail, Sir J.

Southby, Comdr. A. R. J.

Holmes, J. S.

Neven-Spence, Maj. B. H.

Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.

Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J.

Nicolson, Hon. H. G.

Spender-Clay, Lt.-CI. Rt. Hn. H. H.

Hopkinson, A.

O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh

Spens, W. P.

Horsbrugh, Florence

Orr-Ewing, I. L.

Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm I'd)

Howitt, Dr. A. B.

Palmer, G. E. H.

Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.)

Patrick, C. M.

Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.)

Hume, Sir G. H.

Peake, O.

Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)

Hunter, T.

Peat, C. U.

Strickland, Captain W. F.

James, Wing-Commander A. W.

Penny, Sir G.

Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- (N'thw'h)

Jarvis, Sir J. J.

Percy, Rt. Hon. Lord E.

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Jones, Sir G. W. H. (S'k N'w'gt'n)

Perkins, W. R. D.

Sutcliffe, H.

Jones, L. (Swansea, W.)

Petherick, M.

Tasker, Sir R. I.

Keeling, E. H.

Pickthorn, K. W. M

Tate, Mavis C.

Kerr, Colonel C. I. (Montrose)

Pilkington, R.

Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.)

Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.)

Ponsonby, Col. C.E.

Thomson, Sir J. D. W.

Lamb, Sir J. Q.

Porritt, R.W.

Titchfield, Marquess of

Latham, Sir P.

Pownall, Sir A. Assheton

Touche, G. C.

Law, R. K. (Hull, S. W.)

Radford, E. A.

Train, Sir J.

Leckie, J. A.

Raikes, H. V. A. M.

Tree, A. R. L. F.

Lees-Jones, J.

Ramsay, Captain A. H. M.

Tryon, Major Rt. Hon. G. C.

Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L.

Ramsbotham, H.

Tufnell, Lieut.-Com. R. L.

Levy, T.

Ramsden, Sir E.

Ward, Irene (Wallsend)

Liddall, W. S.

Rankin, R.

Warrender, Sir V.

Lindsay, K. M.

Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin)

Waterhouse, Captain C.

Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J.

Rayner, Major R. H.

Wedderburn, H. J. S.

Lloyd, G. W.

Reed, A. C. (Exeter)

Wells, S. R.

Loder, Captain Hon. J. de V.

Reid, Sir D. D. (Down)

Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R.

Loftus, P. C.

Remer, J. R.

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Lumley, Capt. L. R.

Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G.

MacAndrew, Lt.-Col. Sir C. G.

Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool)

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

McCorquodale, M. S.

Ropner, Colonel L.

Wise, A. R.

McEwen, Capt. H. J. F.

Ross, Major Sir R.D. (L'derry)

Womersley, Sir W. J.

McKie, J. H.

Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge)

Young, A. S. L. (Partick)

Macmillan, H. (Stockton-on-Tees)

Rothschild, J. A. de

Macnamara, Capt. J. R. J.

Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir E. A.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Maitland, A.

Salmon, Sir I.

Lieut.-Colonel Sir A. Lambert Ward

Makins, Brig.-Gen. E.

Salt, E. W.

and Dr. Morris-Jones.

Manningham-Buller, Sir M.

Samuel, M. R. A. (Putney)

NOES.

Acland, Rt. Hon. Sir F. Dyke

Day, H.

Kirkwood, D.

Acland, R. T. D. (Barnstaple)

Dobbie, W.

Lee, F.

Adams, D. (Consett)

Dunn, E. (Rother Valley)

Leslie, J. R.

Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.)

Ede, J. C.

Logan, D. G.

Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'Isbr.)

Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty)

Lunn, W.

Ammon, C. G.

Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H.

Macdonald, G. (Ince)

Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

Foot, D. M.

McEntee, V. La T.

Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

Frankel, D.

McGhee, H. G.

Banfield, J. W.

Gardner, B. W.

MacLaren, A.

Barnes, A. J.

George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey)

Maclean, N.

Barr, J.

Gibbins, J.

Mainwaring, W. H.

Batey, J.

Green, W. H. (Deptford)

Mander, G. le M.

Bellenger, F.

Grenfell, D. R.

Marklew, E.

Benson, G.

Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.)

Maxton, J.

Bernays, R. H.

Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)

Messer, F.

Bracken, B.

Groves, T. E.

Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Ha'kn'y, S.)

Broad, F. A.

Hall, G. H.(Aberdare)

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Brooke, W.

Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

Muff, G.

Brown, C. (Mansfield)

Hardie, G. D.

Naylor, T. E.

Buchanan, G.

Harris, Sir P. A.

Oliver, G. H.

Burke, W. A.

Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)

Paling, W.

Charleton, H. C

Henderson, J. (Ardwick)

Parker, H. J. H.

Cluse, W. S.

Henderson, T. (Tradeston)

Parkinson, J. A.

Clynes, Rt. Hon. J. R.

Holdsworth, H.

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Cocks, F. S.

Holland, A.

Potts, J.

Cove, W. G.

Hopkin, D.

Price, M. P.

Cripps, Hon. Sir Stafford

Jagger, J.

Pritt, D. N.

Daggar, G.

Jones, A. C. (Shipley)

Quibell, J. D.

Dalton, H.

Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

Richards, R. (Wrexham)

Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill)

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Riley, B.

Davies, D. L. (Pontypridd)

Kelly, W. T.

Ritson, J.

Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.

Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Brom.)

Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

Kirby, B. V.

Roberts, W.(Cumberland, N.)

Rowson, G.

Sorensen, R. W.

Watson, W. McL.

Seely, Sir H. M.

Stephen, C.

White, H. Graham

Sexton, T. M.

Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)

Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)

Shinwell, E.

Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)

Williams, T. (Don Valley)

Short, A.

Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

Wilson, C. H. (Attercliffe)

Silverman, S. S.

Thurtle, E.

Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)

Simpson, F. B.

Tinker, J. J.

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (C'thn's)

Viant, S. P.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)

Walker, J.

Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Mathers.

Smith, T. (Normanton)

Watkins, F. C.

Bill read a Second time.

Motion made, and Question put, "That the Bill be committed to a Committee

of the Whole House."—[ Mr. Dingle Foot. ]

The House divided: Ayes, 120; Noes, 233.

Division No. 31.]

AYES.

[11.7 p.m.

Acland, Rt. Hon. Sir F. Dyke

Green, W. H. (Deptford)

Naylor, T. E.

Acland, R. T. D. (Barnstaple)

Grenfell, D.R.

Oliver, G. H.

Adams, D. (Consett)

Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.)

Paling, W.

Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.)

Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)

Parker, H. J. H.

Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'Isbr.)

Groves, T. E.

Parkinson, J. A.

Amnion, C. G.

Hall, G. H.(Aberdare)

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

Potts, J.

Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

Hardie, G. D.

Price, M. P.

Banfield, J. W.

Harris, Sir P. A.

Pritt, D. N.

Barnes, A. J.

Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)

Quibell, J.D.

Barr, J.

Henderson, J. (Ardwick)

Richards, R. (Wrexham)

Batey, J.

Henderson, T. (Tradeston)

Riley, B.

Bellenger, F.

Holdsworth, H.

Ritson, J.

Benson, G.

Holland, A.

Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Brom.)

Bernays, R. H.

Hopkin, D.

Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

Bracken, B.

Jagger, J.

Rowson, G.

Bread, F. A.

Jones, A. C. (Shipley)

Seely, Sir H. M.

Brooke, W.

Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

Sexton, T. M.

Brown, C. (Mansfield)

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Silverman, S. S.

Buchanan, G.

Kelly, W. T.

Simpson, F. B.

Burke, W. A.

Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (C'thn's)

Cocks, F. S.

Kirby, B. V.

Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)

Cove, W. G.

Kirkwood, D.

Smith, T. (Normanton)

Cripps, Hon. Sir Stafford

Lee, F.

Sorensen, R. W.

Daggar, G.

Leslie, J. R.

Stephen, C.

Dalton, H.

Logan, D. G.

Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng.)

Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill)

Lunn, W.

Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

Davies, D. L. (Pontypridd)

Macdonald, G. (Ince)

Thurtle, E.

Davies, R. J.(Westhoughton)

McEntee, V. La T.

Tinker, J. J.

Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

McGhee, H. G.

Viant, S. P.

Day, H.

MacLaren, A.

Walker, J.

Dobbie, W.

Maclean, N.

Watson, W. McL.

Dunn, E. (Rother Valley)

Mainwaring, W. H.

White, H. Graham

Ede, J. C.

Mander, G. le M.

Williams, E. J.(Ogmore)

Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty)

Marklew, E.

Williams, T. (Don Valley)

Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H.

Mathers, G.

Wilson, C. H.(Attercliffe)

Foot, D. M.

Maxton, J.

Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)

Frankel, D.

Messer, F.

Gardner, B. W.

Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Ha'kn'y, S.)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey)

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Charleton.

Gibbins, J.

Muff, G.

NOES.

Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J.

Bossom, A. C.

Channon, H.

Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.)

Boulton, W. W.

Chapman, A. (Rutherglen)

Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G.

Bower, Comdr. R. T.

Clydesdale, Marquess of

Albery, I. J.

Braithwaite, Major A. N.

Cobb, Sir C. S.

Amery, Rt. Hon. L. C. M. S.

Brass, Sir W.

Collins, Rt. Hon. Sir G. P.

Anderson, Sir A. Garrett (C. of Ldn.)

Briscoe, Capt. R. G.

Colville, Lt.-Col. D. J.

Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Cook, T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.)

Apsley, Lord

Brown, Col. D. C. (Hexham)

Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.)

Aske, Sir R. W.

Brown, Rt. Hon. E.(Leith)

Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh, W.)

Astor, Major Hon. J. J. (Dover)

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury)

Courtauld, Major J. S.

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Bull, B. B.

Craddock, Sir R. H.

Baldwin-Webb, Col. J.

Bullock, Capt. M.

Craven-Ellis, W.

Balfour, G. (Hampstead)

Burghley, Lord

Critchley, A.

Balfour, Capt. H. H. (isle of Thanet)

Butler, R. A.

Crooke, J. S.

Balniel, Lord

Campbell, Sir E. T.

Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C.

Beauchamp, Sir B. C.

Cartland, J. R. H.

Cross, R. H.

Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h)

Carver, Major W. H.

Crowder, J. F. E.

Bird, Sir R. B.

Castlereagh, Viscount

Davies, C. (Montgomery)

Blindell, Sir J.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir A. (Br. W.)

Davies, Major G. F. (Yeovil)

Borodale, Viscount

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n)

De Chair, S. S.

Denman, Hon. R. D.

Law, R. K. (Hull, S.W.)

Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)

Dorman-Smith, Major R. H.

Leckie, J. A.

Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool)

Duckworth, G. A. V. (Salop)

Lees-Jones, J.

Ropner, Colonel L.

Dugdale, Major T. L.

Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L.

Ross, Major Sir R. D. (L'nderry)

Duggan, H. J.

Levy, T.

Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge)

Duncan, J. A. L.

Liddall, W. S.

Rothschild, J. A. de

Dunglass, Lord

Lindsay, K. M.

Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir E. A.

Dunne, P. R. R.

Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J.

Salmon, Sir I.

Eastwood, J. F.

Lloyd, G. W.

Salt, E. W.

Eckersley, P.T.

Loder, Captain Hon. J. de V.

Samuel, M. R. A. (Putney)

Eden, Rt. Hon. A.

Loftus, P. C.

Sandys, E. D.

Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

Lumley, Capt. L. R.

Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir P.

Ellis, Sir G.

MacAndrew, Lt.-Col. Sir C. G.

Scott, Lord William

Elmley, Viscount

McCorquodale, M. S.

Shakespeare, G. H.

Emrys- Evans, P. V.

MacDonald, Rt. Hn. J. R. (Scot. U.)

Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree)

Errington, E.

McEwen, Capt. H. J. F.

Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar)

Erskine Hill, A. G.

McKie, J. H.

Shepperson, Sir E. W.

Everard, W. L.

Macmillan, H. (Stockton-on-Tees)

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir J.A.

Fraser, Capt. Sir I.

Macnamara, Capt. J. R.J.

Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's U. B'lf'st)

Fremantle, Sir F. E.

Maitland, A.

Smiles, Lieut.-Colonel Sir W. D.

Furness, S. N.

Makins, Brig.-Gen. E.

Smith, L. W. (Hallam)

Fyfe, D. P. M.

Manningham-Buller, Sir M.

Somervell, Sir D. B. (Crewe)

Ganzoni, Sir J.

Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

Southby, Comdr. A. R. J.

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir J.

Maxwell, S. A.

Spears, Brig.-Gen. E.L.

Gluckstein, L. H.

Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

Spens, W. P.

Goodman, Col. A.W.

Mills, Sir F. (Leyton, E.)

Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'I'd)

Graham, Captain A. C.(Wirral)

Mills, Major J.D. (New Forest)

Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester)

Morgan, R. H.

Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.)

Gridley, Sir A. B.

Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H.

Strauss, H.G.(Norwich)

Grimston, R. V.

Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J.

Strickland, Captain W. F.

Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F.E. (Drake)

Munro, P. M.

Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- (N'thw'h)

Guest, Hon. I. (Brecon and Radnor)

Nail, Sir J.

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Guest, Maj. Hon. O. (C'mb'rw'll,N.W.)

Neven-Spence, Maj. B. H.

Sutcliffe, H.

Gunston, Capt. D. W.

Nicolson, Hon. H.G.

Tasker, Sir R. I.

Guy, J. C. M.

O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh

Tate, Mavis C.

Hacking, Rt. Hon. D.H.

Orr-Ewing, I. L.

Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.)

Hamilton, Sir G. C.

Palmer, G.E. H.

Thomson, Sir J. D. W.

Hanbury, Sir C.

Patrick, C. M.

Titchfield, Marquess of

Harvey, G.

Peake, O.

Touche, G. C.

Hellgers, Captain F. F. A.

Peat, C. U.

Train, Sir J.

Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P.

Percy, Rt. Hon. Lord E.

Tree, A. R. L.F.

Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan-

Perkins, W.R.D.

Tryon, Major Rt. Hon. G. C.

Herbert, Major J. A.(Monmouth)

Petherick, M.

Tufnell, Lieut.-Com. R. L.

Holmes, J. S.

Pickthorn, K. W. M.

Ward, Irene (Wallsend)

Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J.

Pilkington, R.

Warrender, Sir V.

Hopkinson, A.

Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

Waterhouse, Captain C.

Horsbrugh, Florence

Porritt, R.W.

Wedderburn, H. J. S.

Howitt, Dr. A. B.

Pownall, Sir A. Assheton

Wells, S.R.

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.)

Radford, E. A.

Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R.

Hume, Sir G. H.

Raikes, H.V.A.M.

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Hunter, T.

Ramsay, Captain A. H. M.

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G.

James, Wing-commander A. W.

Ramsbotham, H.

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Jarvis, Sir J. J.

Ramsden, Sir E.

Wise, A.R.

Jones, Sir G.W.H.(S'k N'w'gt'n)

Rankin, R.

Womersley, Sir W. J.

Keeling, E. H.

Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin)

Young, A. S. L. (Partick)

Kerr, Colonel C. I. (Montrose)

Rayner, Major R. H.

Kerr, J. Graham(Scottish Univs.)

Reed, A. C. (Exeter)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

Lamb, Sir J. Q.

Reid, Sir D. D. (Down)

Sir George Penny and Lieut.-Colonel

Latham, Sir P.

Remer, J. R.

Sir A. Lambert Ward.

Bill committed to a Standing Committee.

Sugar Industry (Reorganisation)[Money]

Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 69.

[Sir DENNIS HERBERT in the Chair.]

Motion made, and Question put,

"That for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to provide for the establishment of a Sugar Commission; for the amalgamation into a single corporation of companies manufacturing sugar from homegrown beet; for granting financial assistance to that corporation and to the companies aforesaid; and otherwise for the reorganization of the sugar industry, it is expedient to provide—

poration, in respect of sugar manufactured during the period between the 31st August, 1935, and the 1st September, 1936, in respect of which subsidy is payable under the British Sugar (Subsidy) Acts, 1925 to 1935, not exceeding, in the case of the allowance to the Corporation, £240,000, and in the case of the allowances to the said companies £315,000 in the aggregate;

( b ) for the issue out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom of any sums required for fulfilling any guarantee given by the Treasury under the said Act of the present Session in respect of debentures issued by the Corporation, so, however, that the principal of the debentures so guaranteed shall not in the aggregate exceed an amount sufficient to raise £1,000,000;

( c ) for the payment into the Exchequer of any sums received byway of repayment of any sums so issued out of the Consolidated Fund, and of any sums received by the Sugar Commission, except any sums as to which other provision may be made by or under the said Act."—( King's Recommendation Signified ).—[ Mr. Elliot. ]

The Committee divided: Ayes, 224; Noes, 117.

Division No. 32.]

AYES.

[11.17 p.m.

Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J.

Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh, W.)

Hacking, Rt. Hon. D.H.

Adams, S.V. T. (Leeds, W.)

Courthope, Col. Sir G. L.

Hamilton, Sir G.C.

Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G.

Craddock, Sir R.H.

Hanbury, Sir C.

Albery, I. J.

Cranborne, Viscount

Harvey, G.

Amery, Rt. Hon. L. C. M. S.

Craven-Ellis, W.

Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.

Anderson, Sir A. Garrett (C. of Ldn.)

Critchley, A.

Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A P.

Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

Crooke, J. S.

Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan-

Apsley, Lord

Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C.

Herbert, Major J.A.(Monmouth)

Aske, Sir R.W.

Cross, R.H.

Holmes, J. S.

Astor, Major Hon. J.J.(Dover)

Crowder, J. F. E.

Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J.

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Davies, C. (Montgomery)

Horsbrugh, Florence

Baldwin-Webb, Col. J.

Davies, Major G.F.(Yeovil)

Howitt, Dr. A. B.

Balfour, G. (Hampstead)

De Chair, S.S.

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.)

Balfour, Capt. H. H.(Isle of Thanet)

Denman, Hon. R. D.

Hume, Sir G. H.

Beauchamp, Sir B. C.

Dorman-Smith, Major R.H.

Hunter, T.

Beaumont, Hon. R.E.B. (Portsm'h)

Duckworth, G. A. V. (Salop)

James, Wing-Commander A. W.

Bird, Sir R. B.

Duggan, H. J.

Jarvis, Sir J. J.

Borodale, Viscount

Duncan, J. A. L.

Jones, Sir G. W. H. (S'kN'w'gt'n)

Bossom, A. C.

Dunglass, Lord

Keeling, E. H.

Boulton, W. W.

Dunne, P. R. R.

Kerr, Colonel C. I. (Montrose)

Bower, Comdr. R. T.

Eastwood, J.F.

Kerr, J. Graham(Scottish Univs.)

Braithwaite, Major A. N.

Eckersley, P. T.

Lamb, Sir J. Q.

Brass, Sir W.

Elliot, Rt. Hon. W.E.

Latham, Sir P.

Briscoe, Capt. R. G.

Ellis, Sir G.

Law, R. K. (Hull, S. W.)

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Elmley, Viscount

Leckie, J. A.

Brown, Col. D. C. (Hexham)

Emrys-Evans, P.V.

Lennox-Boyd, A.T.L.

Brown, Rt. Hon. E.(Leith)

Errington, E.

Levy, T.

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury)

Erskine Hill, A. G.

Liddall, W.S.

Bull. B. B.

Everard, W.L.

Lindsay, K. M.

Bullock, Capt. M.

Fraser, Capt. Sir I.

Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J.

Burghley, Lord

Fremantle, Sir F.E.

Lloyd, G. W.

Butler, R. A.

Furness, S.N.

Loder, Captain Hon. J. de V.

Campbell, Sir E. T.

Fyfe, D. P. M.

Loftus, P. C.

Cartland, J.R. H.

Ganzoni, Sir J.

Lumley, Capt. L. R.

Carver, Major W.H.

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir J.

Mac Andrew, Lt.-Col. Sir C. G.

Castlereagh, Viscount

Gluckstein, L.H.

Mc Corquodale, M.S.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir A. (Br.W.)

Goodman, Col. A.W.

McKie, J. H.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N.(Edgb't'n)

Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral)

Macmillan, H. (Stockton-on-Tees)

Channon, H.

Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester)

Macnamara, Capt. J. R.J.

Chapman, A.(Rutherglen)

Gridley, Sir A. B.

Maitland, A.

Clydesdale, Marquess of

Grimston, R. V.

Makins, Brig.-Gen. E.

Cobb, Sir C. S.

Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F.E. (Drake)

Manningham-Buller, Sir M.

Collins, Rt. Hon. Sir G.P.

Guest, Hon. I. (Brecon and Radnor)

Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. O. R.

Colville, Lt.-Col. D. J.

Guest, Maj. Hon. O. (C'mb'rw'll, N. W.)

Maxwell, S. A.

Cook, T. R.A. M. (Norfolk, N.)

Gunston, Capt. D. W.

Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.)

Guy, J.C.M.

Mills, Sir F. (Leyton, E.)

Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

Reed, A. C. (Exeter)

Strauss, H. G.(Norwich)

Morgan, R. H.

Reid, Sir D. D. (Down)

Strickland, Captain W. F.

Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H.

Remer, J. R.

Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-(N'thw'h)

Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J.

Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)

Sutcliffe, H.

Munro, P. M.

Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool)

Tasker, Sir R. I.

Nall, Sir J.

Ropner, Colonel L.

Tate, Mavis C.

Neven-Spence, Maj. B. H.

Ross, Major Sir R.D. (L'derry)

Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.)

Nicolson, Hon. H.G.

Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge)

Thomson, Sir J. D. W.

O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh

Rothschild, J. A. de

Titchfield, Marquess of

Orr-Ewing, I. L.

Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir E. A.

Touche, G. C.

Palmer, G. E. H.

Salmon, Sir I.

Train, Sir J.

Patrick, C. M.

Salt, E. W.

Tree, A. R. L. F.

Peake, O.

Samuel, M. R. A. (Putney)

Tryon, Major Rt. Hon. G.C.

Peat, C. U.

Sandys, E. D.

Tufnell, Lieut.-Com. R. L.

Penny, Sir G.

Scott, Lord William

Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

Perkins, W.R. D.

Shakespeare, G. H.

Ward, Irene(Wallsend)

Petherick, M.

Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree)

Warrender, Sir V.

Pickthorn, K. W. M.

Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar)

Waterhouse, Captain C.

Pilkington, R.

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A.

Wells, S.R.

Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's U. B'lf'st),

Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T.R.

Porritt, R.W.

Smiles, Lieut.-Colonel Sir W.D.

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Pownall, Sir A. Assheton

Smith, L. W. (Hallam)

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G.

Radford, E. A.

Somervell, Sir D. B. (Crewe)

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Raikes, H. V. A. M.

Southby, Comdr. A. R. J.

Wise, A. R.

Ramsay, Captain A. H. M.

Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.

Womersley, Sir W. J.

Ramsbotham, H.

Spens, W. P.

Young, A. S. L. (Partick)

Ramsden, Sir E.

Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Fylde)

Rankin, R.

Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'I'd)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Rathbone, J.R. (Bodmin)

Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

Sir James Blindell and Mr. James Stuart.

Rayner, Major R. H.

Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.)

NOES.

Acland, Rt. Hon. Sir F. Dyke

Green, W.H. (Deptford)

Oliver, G. H.

Acland, R. T. D. (Barnstaple)

Grenfell, D.R.

Paling, W.

Adams, D.(Consett)

Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.)

Parker, H. J. H.

Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.)

Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)

Parkinson, J. A.

Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V.(H'lsbr.)

Groves, T. E.

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Ammon, C. G.

Hall, G.H.(Aberdare)

Potts, J.

Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

Price, M. P.

Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

Hardie, G. D.

Pritt, D. N.

Banfield, J. W.

Harris, Sir P. A.

Quibell, J.D.

Barnes, A. J.

Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)

Richards, R. (Wrexham)

Barr, J.

Henderson, J. (Ardwick)

Riley, B.

Batey, J.

Henderson, T. (Tradeston)

Ritson, J.

Bellenger, F.

Holdsworth, H.

Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Brom.)

Benson, G.

Holland, A.

Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

Bernays, R.H.

Hopkin, D.

Rowson, G.

Broad, F. A.

Jagger, J.

Seely, Sir H. M.

Brooke, W.

Jones, A. C. (Shipley)

Sexton, T.M.

Brown, C. (Mansfield)

Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

Silverman, S. S.

Buchanan, G.

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Simpson, F.B.

Burke, W.A.

Kelly, W. T.

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (C'thn's)

Charleton, H. C.

Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.

Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)

Cocks, F. S.

Kirby, B.V.

Smith, T. (Normanton)

Cripps, Hon. Sir Stafford

Kirkwood, D.

Sorensen, R. W.

Daggar, G.

Lee, F.

Stephen, C.

Dalton, H.

Leslie, J. R.

Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)

Davidson, J.J.(Maryhill)

Logan, D. G.

Strauss, G. R.(Lambeth, N.)

Davies, D. L. (Pontypridd)

Lunn, W.

Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

Davies, R. J.(Westhoughton)

Macdonald, G. (Ince)

Thurtle, E.

Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

McEntee, V. La T.

Tinker, J.J.

Day, H.

McGhee, H. G.

Viant, S. P.

Dobbie, W.

MacLaren, A.

Walker, J.

Dunn, E. (Rother Valley)

Maclean, N.

Watson, W. McL.

Ede, J.C.

Mainwaring, W. H.

White, H. Graham

Edwards, Sir C.(Bedwellty)

Marklew, E.

Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)

Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T.H.

Maxton, J.

Williams, T.(Don Valley)

Foot, D. M.

Messer, F.

Wilson, C. H. (Attercliffe)

Frankel, D.

Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Ha'kn'y. S.)

Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)

Gardner, B. W.

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

George, Megan Lloyd(Anglesey)

Muff, G.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Gibbins, J.

Naylor, T.E.

Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Mathers.

Resolution to be reported To-morrow.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

It being Half-past Eleven of the Clock, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

Adjourned accordingly at Half-after Eleven o'Clock.