House of Commons
Monday, February 17, 1936
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock,Mr. SPEAKERin the Chair.
Private Business
Cirencester Gas Bill,
"to incorporate and confer powers on the Cirencester Gas Company," presented, and read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time.
London Passenger Transport Board Bill (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till Monday next.
Wolverhampton Corporation Bill (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till Thursday.
Perth Corporation Order Confirmation Bill [ Lords ] (by Order),
Consideration deferred till Monday next.
British Museum
I have been asked by the Trustees of the British Museum to present a petition which they have to submit to this House annually, explaining the financial position and praying for aid. The petition recites the funded income of the Trustees and points out that the establishment is necessarily attended with an expense far beyond the annual production of the funds, and the trust cannot with benefit to the public be carried on without the aid of Parliament. It concludes with this prayer:
"Your petitioners therefore humbly pray your Honourable House to grant them such further support towards enabling them to carry on the execution of the Trust reposed in them by Parliament for the general benefit of learning and useful knowledge as to your House shall seem meet." — [ King's Recommendation signified. ]
Referred to the Committee of Supply.
Oral Answers to Questions
Questions
Distressed Areas
I should like to point out that last week I handed in to the Table a question addressed to the Prime Minister on the subject of the distressed areas and I do not see it on the Order Paper.
Was the question put down to be answered to-day?
It has been in the printed form and I received a communication from the Prime Minister that it would be answered by the President of the Board of Trade to-day.
We must wait till after Questions to go into the matter.
China (Customs Revenues)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has satisfied himself that the Japanese proposals for the fiscal severance of Northern China from Nanking will not reduce the revenues of the Chinese maritime customs to the disadvantage of British capital invested in China?
I would refer my hon. Friend to the answers which I gave on 10th February to my hon. Friend the Member for Preston (Mr. Moreing) to which I have nothing to add.
5.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that the Manchukuo authorities have put aside a sinking fund to meet the due share of the foreign loans secured on the Chinese maritime customs and the salt gabelle; and will he inquire when the Manchukuo State proposes to refund the moneys so set aside to the Chinese Government, so that the service of the loans referred to may not be jeopardised;
(2) whether he is aware that since the creation of the State of Manchukuo, customs and salt taxes, formerly remitted by Manchuria to the Chinese Government, have been retained by the new State; and whether, since the security and the service of the 1912 loan and the 1913 reorganisation loan, both of which are largely held by British investors, are affected by this retention, he will make representations to the Manchukuo and Japanese authorities?
I am aware that the customs and salt revenues collected in Manchuria are retained by the local authorities and that a proportion thereof is being regularly paid into a special "Adjustment Fund for Foreign Loans." I understand, however, that the transfer of these moneys to the Chinese Government is contingent upon a settlement of their differences with the present regime in Manchuria. While the security of the loans to which my hon. and gallant Friend refers is inevitably impaired in some degree by this diversion of revenues, I would point out that, apart from a temporary suspension over a short period commencing in 1928 of amortization payments on the 1912 loan, payments on both loans have been and are being regularly discharged. So long as the service of the loans is being met, I do not think that the question of representations need arise.
Argentina (British Investments)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will request the Argentine Government to furnish him with a statement as to their policy towards British investments in Argentine public utility companies?
I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave on the subject of British investments in Argentina on 12th February.
British Passports
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether His Majesty's Government will now be prepared to revert to the pre-War practice in regard to passports; and will he make a statement?
I am not quite clear what exactly the hon. Member means by the pre-War practice, but all countries require that persons entering their territories shall be in possession of evidence of their nationality and identity. So long as this requirement continues, I do not think that any change in the present system is practicable, since a passport is the most satisfactory and convenient form of document for that purpose. It is, in fact, the only form of document accepted in most countries.
Will the right hon. Gentleman lay this matter before the League of Nations to see whether some alteration can be brought about?
I do not know what matter it is that the hon. Member wants me to lay before the League of Nations.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the tightening up of the regulations?
Diplomatic and Consular Services (Women)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs when the report of the committee on the admission of women to the diplomatic and Consular services, which he promised in January of last year would be published, will be available?
I would refer to the reply given on 19th December to the hon. Lady the Senior Member for the English Universities (Miss Rathbone), to which I am unable to add.
Has the right hon. Gentleman refreshed his memory from the answer he gave in January of last year, when a specific promise was made?
Yes, I admit that the matter has been very much delayed, but since then the responsibilities of my position have brought a considerable pressure of other work. I will undertake to have the matter looked into as soon as possible.
How long does it take to give an order for a report already prepared to be printed?
I want to read the report first.
Italy and Abyssinia
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to a despatch published in the Italian press, on 10th February alleging that the chief military adviser to the Emperor of Abyssinia and the controller of military operations is Colonel Holt, an English officer; and, seeing that the Italian press is under governmental control, will His Majesty's Government make representations to the Italian Government asking for an explanation of this allegation?
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been drawn to a paragraph, prominently displayed in leading newspapers in Rome, to the effect that the principal military adviser of the Negus is an Englishman, Colonel Holt, and that all the ammunition of the Abyssinians comes from England; and whether, as Italian newspapers are con trolled by the Italian Government, His Majesty's ambassador in Rome has been instructed to inform the Italian Government that such accusations are false and not conducive to a continuation of friendly relations between Great Britain and Italy?
On 13th February His Majesty's ambassador in Rome drew the attention of the Italian Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to recent statements in the Italian press that Colonel Holt is acting as military adviser to the Emperor of Ethiopia, and that all Abyssinian munitions are of British origin. Sir Eric Drummond emphasised that these allegations are completely unjustified, and that their publication caused a deplorable impression in this country. Signor Suvich's reception of this communication affords grounds for hope that these mis-statements will not be repeated.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the propriety of withdrawing Sir Eric Drummond from Rome?
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to what extent the Italian military commitments in Abyssinia impair the effectiveness of her guarantee under the Locarno Treaty; and how far are our own military commitments under that Treaty thereby increased?
The Treaty of Locarno does not define the nature or extent of the military assistance which the guarantors of the Treaty are pledged to furnish in the eventualities therein specified. The issues raised in the hon. and gallant Member's question are therefore hypothetical.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any other member of the League of Nations, in addition to Great Britain, has made trade concessions to Jugoslavia in compensation for the loss suffered by that country in implementing the policy of sanctions?
I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply given on this subject on 13th February to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Tiverton (Lieut.-Colonel Acland-Troyte) to which I have nothing to add.
Has not this country contributed enough to this policy of sanctions through increased expenditure and loss of trade without playing a lone hand in compensating other members of the League of Nations for their losses?
I do not think that quite arises out of the answer.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the National Farmers' Union in their official organ state that the loss referred to by the hon. and gallant Member is absolutely negligible?
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether His Majesty's Government are in communication with the United States Government on the question of oil supplies for the Italian aggressor State?
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has now received the report of the Committee of Experts on the supply of oil to Italy; whether he will issue this report in the form of a White Paper; and whether any date has been fixed for its consideration by the League of Nations Committee for the co-ordination of sanctions?
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has considered the report of the Committee of Exports appointed to examine the possibility of an embargo on the imports of oil into the Covenant-breaking State; whether it is proposed, on these findings, to make any representations to the United States; and what further action is now intended?
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has made any effort to induce the Government of the United States to agree to prevent their nationals from shipping to Italy supplies of oil above the normal and thus remove the major obstacle to a sanction which gives promise of bringing about an early peace; and, if so, what reply has been given?
I have received the report of the Committee of Experts. It is the intention of His Majesty's Government to publish this document as a White Paper, and it will be available in the Vote Office to-morrow. No date has yet been fixed for its consideration by the Committee of Eighteen. The question of approaching the United States Government is one which concerns the members of the League of Nations as a whole, and it would, therefore, be inappropriate for His Majesty's Government to take individual action of the nature suggested.
Will His Majesty's Government take the initiative on the League of Nations in supporting these sanctions, whatever America may propose to do?
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any information to give the House concerning the arrest of Mr. John Trewen and the Reverend Harold Street, of the Sudan Interior Mission at Chencha, in the Abyssinian province of Gamo, South Wallamo?
According to a telegraphic report from His Majesty's Minister at Addis Ababa, an Ethiopian official, placed temporarily in charge of Gamo Province during the absence on duty of the Governor, had for some time been making difficulties for the Sudan Interior Mission station at Shama with regard to their travelling in the neighbourhood. These difficulties culminated on 28th January in the arrest at their station of Mr. John Trewen and the Reverend Harold Street, who were taken on 29th January to Chincha, the capital of the Province, some four miles from Shama. Their families remained at the station, over which a guard was placed. News of the incident reached the Mission headquarters at Addis Ababa on 7th February, and on the following day Sir Sidney Barton saw the Minister for Foreign Affairs, who agreed to telegraph at once to the Acting Governor to release the missionaries. On 13th February the Minister informed Sir Sidney Barton that orders had been sent to the Acting Governor of Shama to afford the mission every assistance and to provide them with an escort to Soddhu, one of the localities agreed upon last year with the Ethiopian Government as a concentration point for missionaries. The whole incident appears to have been due to a misunderstanding on the part of the Acting Governor of Shama, and I am glad to be able to add that neither Sir Sidney Barton nor the head of the Sudan Interior Mission in Addis Ababa consider that the missionaries concerned had been in any serious danger. I have this morning heard from His Majesty's Minister that the two missionaries have telegraphed to him stating that they are free and in good health.
Do I take it that the story in the Press that these missionaries have been thrust into chains is quite untrue?
I do not know anything more than the facts I have given, but these missionaries have never been in any serious danger.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the air service between Eritrea and Italian Somaliland, the subject of an agreement between Italy and the United Kingdom on 7th December, 1934, is now in operation?
The answer is in the affirmative.
Has the service been used for the transport of military material?
No, Sir. Aircraft operating on this service have to land at Berbera, where they are, of course subject to Customs examination. In accordance with the Air Convention, no arms or munitions of war may be carried.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether compensatory action has been taken by the Government in respect of the trade of countries other than Jugoslavia arising out of the imposition of sanctions against Italy; and whether it is proposed to seek from other members of the League of Nations compensatory trade in respect of export coal from South Wales?
The answer to both parts of the question is in the negative.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that representatives of the Miners' Federation say that the loss is negligible and that the policy is well worth while?
Will the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to answer the second part of my question?
The answer to both part's is in the negative.
Will not the right hon. Gentleman ask France to increase her import of coal in order to help our miners?
That is another question.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, with a view to carrying out the treaty obligations of His Majesty's Government under Article XVI of the Covenant of the League of Nations and shortening the war in East Africa, he will propose to other States Members of the League that they should prohibit all Italian shipping from touching at League ports, and all shipping owned by nationals of League members from touching at Italian ports?
The matter would be one for the Co-ordination Committee to decide, and if it is raised, His Majesty's Government will give it consideration, in the light of all the circumstances.
Did not the right hon. Gentleman himself make a proposal on those lines in October?
No, Sir.
Will not the right hon. Gentleman take the initiative, at any rate, in the Co-ordinating Committee of the League of Nations?
I am afraid I can make no statement on that point at this stage.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Government have received, since the commencement of the Italo-Abyssinian war, any authoritative communication as to whether or not the Italian Dictator would look upon an embargo on oil as a military sanction to be met by military retaliation; and whether the British Government's policy in regard to an embargo has been or is in any way modified by such a threat?
As regards the first part of the question, no such official communication has been received. The second part does not, therefore, arise.
Has the right hon. Gentleman received any authoritative communication from the Commissioner?
I prefer the language of my answer.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in the French undertaking to give combatant support to Great Britain if the Italian forces should attack the British forces in consequence of their carrying out agreed provisions of the Covenant, there is any implied qualification to the effect that precautionary naval or military measures not specifically agreed by the League do not come within the compass of agreed provisions; and whether the French Government have been asked what attitude they would take in the specific event of an attack by Italy on the British Fleet now in the Mediterranean?
I would refer the hon. Member to the memorandum (published in Command Paper No. 5072) which was communicated by His Majesty's Government to the Co-ordination Committee last month, to which I have nothing to add.
Is it not possible for the right hon. Gentleman to answer the latter part of the question, which is specific upon a specific point of great importance?
I think the hon. Gentleman will find that the document contains a full answer to the question.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in that document there does not appear to be one state- ment to cover the circumstances set out in the latter part of the question, and, if there is, will he show it to me, or indicate it?
I am not aware of what the hon. Gentleman says.
Trade and Commerce
Russia
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what are the reasons for the delay in commencing the negotiations for a formal treaty of commerce and navigation with the Government of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, in view of the fact that the temporary agreement was made pending the formal treaty and has now been in existence for two years, during which time the claims of British nationals for compensation for appropriated property have remained in abeyance; and when do the Government intend to take action with regard to the claims of these British citizens?
I cannot agree with the assumption that there has been any undue delay in considering the question of commencing negotiations for a formal treaty. I would assure my hon. Friend that the position of Anglo-Soviet trade, and the possibility of improving it, are under constant consideration; and in that connection the question of the British claims to which he refers is continually borne in mind.
Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that the British market is almost essential for Soviet trade and, in the circumstances, has he not good grounds for pressing that the negotiations in connection with the forthcoming treaty should be started without further delay, so that the claims of these unfortunate people, who have been waiting so long, should be dealt with?
I am sure my hon. Friend appreciates that these questions turn upon a very large number of considerations. It is necessary to give the temporary agreement a fair run.
Does the answer of the right hon. Gentleman mean that the Government do not intend to take any further action with regard to British patriots who invest their capital in foreign investments?
Oh, no.
Export Credits
asked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether he will give particulars, and the position to date, of any losses made, by His Majesty's Government for amounts guaranteed or advanced under the Overseas Trade Acts?
Under the advances scheme which was in force from 1920 until 1922, payments made, after allowance has been made for recoveries, amounted to £.1,075,489. Under the scheme of guarantees, which ceased to operate in 1926, net payments, less recoveries, amounted to £179,711. Against these sums, premiums and commissions amounting to £303,196 have been received. Certain further recoveries are expected. From July, 1926, when the present Export Credit Guarantee scheme came into force, until the end of 1935, the net payments in connection with guarantees amounted to £256,556. These payments have been more than covered by premiums received.
Does that mean that there have been no losses?
If you took the whole scheme from beginning to end, taking absolutely net losses, that would probably be true.
Levant Fair
asked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether he can now state what foreign countries are officially participating in the Levant Fair to be opened at Tel-Aviv, in Palestine, at the end of April next; which of the foreign countries exhibiting there in 1934 have increased the scale of their display; and what steps have been taken by his Department to bring to the notice of British manufacturers the opportunities of expanding their export trade in the Near East through the medium of this fair?
I understand that Bulgaria, Finland, France, Norway, Turkey and Yugo-Slavia have decided to participate officially in the forthcoming fair at Tel-Aviv. Certain other countries are considering the question of official participation. I am not in a position to state which of the countries participating in 1934 have increased the scale of their display. As I informed my hon. Friend on 11th December last, the Department of Overseas Trade, in addition to installing an information bureau, makes suitable references to the fair in the Board of Trade Journal, and exists for the purpose of helping United Kingdom manufacturers desirous of expending their export trade to this or any other market.
New Factories (Condensed Milk)
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether the one foreign factory which has been set up in this country in the last two years for the purpose of making condensed milk is the only factory of this kind, or whether any similar factories have been set up which are controlled by foreign capital or by foreign directors?
I have been asked to reply. The reports in connection with the Survey of Industrial Development for 1935 are not yet complete, but up to the present only one foreign factory is reported as having been set up in this country in the last two years for the purpose of making condensed milk. The survey takes account only of factories employing 25 or more people.
Trade Agreements (Norway, Sweden and Iceland)
asked the President of the Board of Trade on what date the trade agreements with Norway, Sweden and Iceland come to an end; and whether it is proposed to initiate negotiations for a continuation of those agreements in a modified form?
Each of these agreements was for a period of three years, terminating, on six months' notice being given, on 28th June next in the case of Iceland and on 7th July next in the case of Norway and Sweden. Notice has not been given by either party, and the agreements, therefore, remain in force with a denunciation period of six months. Whether or not it will be desirable to negotiate modifications of these agreements and, if so, at what date, are questions now receiving consideration.
Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind the question of including a shipping clause for the use of British shipping to those countries where the exchange of commodities is being considered?
When the matter comes up for discussion that question will be kept in mind.
Meat Imports (Agreements)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether in default of agreement with the governments of the Dominions and with the government of the Argentine Republic in respect of meat imports, he proposes to give notice of the intention of His Majesty's Government to denounce the Ottawa Agreements and the commercial treaty with the Argentine Republic?
If my hon. Friend's forebodings prove to be justified, His Majesty's Government will give careful consideration to the resulting situation in the light of all the circumstances of the time.
Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that, important as the subject is, it is only one of a very large number, and that there is general satisfaction with the results of the Ottawa Agreements taken as a whole?
Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind the fact that there is no satisfaction whatever with the Argentine meat agreement which is very important?
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether His Majesty's Government will make the representations to the Government of the Argentine Republic with a view to obtaining a resumption of negotiations upon the subject of beef imports?
The Argentine Government are, I have reason to think, fully aware of our desire for a speedy resumption of these negotiations.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will not take a very firm line in future negotiations, in view of the harsh way in which we are treated in the Argentine?
I will bear that matter in mind.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say when he expects these negotiations to be resumed?
No, Sir, I am afraid that I cannot name a definite date yet.
Canada
asked the President of the Board of Trade what steps the Canadian Government have taken to remove obstacles to British export trade in the form of arbitrary customs valuations and other restrictive regulations; and whether these changes tend to promote the co-operative purposes of the Anglo-Canadian trade agreement?
Since the Ottawa Agreement, various steps have been taken by the Canadian Government to modify the regulations affecting the importation of United Kingdom goods into Canada. These steps include the cancellation of the arbitrary valuations made under Section 43 of the Canadian Customs Act and the decision that goods will not be regarded as of a class or kind made in Canada unless the local industry produces at least 10 per cent. of normal Canadian requirements.
May I take it that these changes have done a good deal to make the Ottawa Agreements what they were intended to be?
That has been their tendency.
Steelworks (Jarrow)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the anxiety in the town of Jarrow regarding the proposed opening of the steelworks, he is yet in a position to say if the Government is concerning itself in the matter; and whether any statement on the subject can now be made?
The Government have for some time been keenly interested in this proposal. It is, however, a matter primarily for the steel interests concerned who are not, I understand, in a position at present to make any announcement.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, in view of the statements that have been made about the difficulty in raising capital, the matter is not worth considering?
Until the scheme has taken more definite scope, it will be impossible to say how much capital will be required or whether it will be raised within the industry itself.
Is the right hon. Gentleman definitely in touch with the people who are trying to get the steel works opened there?
Brazil
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will make representations to the Brazilian Government, asking them to arrange for an early settlement of the frozen remittances as at February, 1935, as the prolonged delay is penalising British firms?
His Majesty's Government have been engaged in continuous attempts to secure the assent of the Brazilian Government to the necessary measures for carrying out their obligations under the Payments Agreement of last March. In spite of repeated delays, arrangements had been practically completed for the issue to the creditors of an offer of stock and cash; but I deeply regret to say that His Majesty's Government have now been notified that the Brazilian authorities consider it necessary to amend the list of debts which had already been approved and which forms the basis of the offer. This will necessarily entail some further delay before the offer can be issued to the creditors. His Majesty's Government will take every possible step to minimise the delay.
Does not that show that the Board of Trade would be wise in advising British manufacturers not to export any more goods to Brazil in view of the fact that they will not be paid for?
I have already on more than one occasion suggested to cur traders that they should proceed cautiously in these countries.
Raw Materials (British Dominions)
asked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether there are any British Dominions in which British purchasers of raw materials have an advantage over foreign purchasers; what these raw materials are; and what are the advantages accruing to such British purchasers?
I am not aware that any measures which would have this effect have been taken by the Dominion Governments.
May we assume, therefore, from my right hon. Friend's reply that Germany has no ground for the argument which she puts forward that her raw materials are being interfered with?
I cannot add anything to the answer which I have given, which I hope was quite clear.
Is it a fact that the assurance of the right hon. Gentleman does not apply to British Colonies, although it may apply to British Dominions?
I cannot answer for the Colonial Office; I am only replying on behalf of the Dominions Office.
Naval and Military Pensions and Grants
24 and 25.
asked the Minister of Pensions (1) the amount of allowances at present paid to disabled soldiers attending hospitals for treatment due to disabilities caused by the Great War, distinguishing the cases of men who are forced to leave- their employment and the cases of men who are unemployed;
(2) the number of ex-service men who attended hospitals under the Ministry during 1936 for treatment, who have not received any treatment allowances, and whose wives and dependants, in consequence of the failure of the Ministry to provide allowances, have been compelled to seek Poor Law relief?
In the case of men who are normally in employment before admission and who suffer loss of wages or profits on account of admission to hospital, allowances are payable in accordance with the terms of the Royal Warrant, a copy of which I am sending the hon. Member. In the case of men who were unemployed before admission but were in receipt of either unemployment benefit or allowances from the Unemployment Assistance Board before admission to hospital, supplementary grants are payable in accordance with the announcement which I made in the House on the 22nd October last, which substantially meet the loss of income suffered by their families. I am sending the hon. Member a copy. The object of this, as I stated at the time, was to obviate the necessity of their families having to have recourse to the Poor Law solely on account of the man's admission to a Ministry hospital. Although I have no statistics which would enable me to answer the hon. Member's second question, I am satisfied that in general my object has been achieved.
If I bring to the notice of the hon. Gentleman a specific case in which a man has had to resort to the Poor Law, will he reconsider the position of that man?
If the hon. Gentleman will send me particulars I shall be very glad indeed to make an immediate inquiry and to discuss it with the hon. Gentleman.
Agriculture
Meat Marketing
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he proposes to fulfil his undertaking with regard to the reorganisation of the marketing of beef?
The initiative in the submission of marketing schemes under the Agricultural Marketing Acts rests with the producers concerned. The whole position concerning the reorganisation of the marketing of livestock has been exhaustively considered by Reorganisation Commissions for England and Wales and for Scotland, whose reports are before the industry and are being closely considered by it. No scheme has, however, yet been submitted either to my right hon. Friend, the Secretary of State for Scotland, or myself.
Is it not a fact that two years ago the right hon. Gentleman gave an undertaking that the reorganisation of marketing was to be the central part of the Government's policy, and that since then the Government have taken no action in the matter whatsoever; and will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that he will take some action?
I am afraid that my hon. Friend does not fully understand the procedure under the Marketing Act. I have no intention whatever of forcing down the throat of an unwilling industry a policy of reorganisation for which they were not ready. If I did so, my hon. Friend would be the first person to come here and complain about it.
In view of the voluntary agreement the right hon. Gentleman entered into to reduce imports of meat, and having conceded the subsidy for the past 18 months, does the right hon. Gentleman not consider it is time that this side of the industry ought to reorganise its marketing?
The hon. Gentleman knows as well as I do the procedure of marketing, as he had a great deal to do with the passing of the Marketing Act.
Is not the statement I have just made a true one, that the right hon. Gentleman has entered into a voluntary agreement for restricting imports, and yet no effort is being made to improve the marketing of the product?
Is it not a fact that we limited the importing of beef from Ireland about two years ago on the ground that this scheme was in an active state of preparation, as certified by the Board of Trade, and that since then nothing has happened?
The point has been ex-haustingly threshed out in Committee as to whether imports should be limited in advance of a scheme being actually tabled. I contended then, and I still contend, that no greater injury could be done to the cause of marketing than to tie marketing schemes so closely to a scheme of regulating imports that no action could be taken unless the producers put through some ill-considered scheme.
Land Drainage
asked the Minister of Agriculture how many local authorities objected to the new basis of assessment provided for under the Land Drainage Act, 1930?
In the first three years after the Act was passed representations were received by the Ministry from five county councils, supported by a few other bodies, calling attention to the difficulties and delay which were being experienced consequent on the change to which my hon. Friend refers, and urging that the acreage basis in lieu of annual value should be continued for a. period of two years. So far as I am aware, no similar representations have since been received.
Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that many properties which prior to 1930 had to make contributions in shillings are to-day making contributions amounting to as many pounds; and will he, therefore, support an amending Bill?
I do not think that that, question arises out of the question on. the Paper.
Store Cattle
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is aware of the serious condition in Wales of the market prices for store cattle; and whether he will consider extending the beef subsidy to cover store cattle or will he say how he proposes to deal with store cattle prices?
I am aware of the low level of prices ruling for store cattle in Wales and elsewhere, though these have recently shown an upward tendency. I should be willing to consider any suggestions brought forward by the industry, but I do not think that an agreed scheme on the lines suggested by the hon. Member has yet been evolved. Failing such a scheme, I shall continue with the policy of improving the prices of fat cattle.
Do I understand that the Minister's reply means that he intends to do nothing whatsoever for the Welsh farmer?
No, Sir; the hon. Gentleman would be entirely wrong in that assumption.
Milk
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he can give the figures of the total milk production for England and Wales for each of the last four calendar years; and the estimated amounts consumed as liquid milk and used in factories for milk products?
asked the Minister of Agriculture the quantities of milk sold for liquid consumption by the Milk Marketing Board and producer retailers; and the quantities sold for manufacturing purposes during the years 1934 and 1935?
As the answer to these questions contains a number of figures, I am circulating it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the answer:
The estimated total production of milk in England and Wales in the four years 1931–32 to 1934–35 is as follows:
— Year ended 30th September, 1934. 30th September, 1935. Gallons. Gallons. Sold for liquid consumption— ( a ) under wholesale contracts) under wholesale contracts … … 523,813,326 554, 174, 376 ( b ) by producer-retailers) by producer-retailers … … 109,970,885 104,932,128 633,784,211 659,106,504 Sold for manufacture … … 192,623,561 301,829,328
asked the Minister of Agriculture the total output of milk in Great Britain for the year 1933 and each succeeding year, and the estimated output for the present year?
As regards the first part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to him on 10th May last, a copy of which I am sending to him. I regret that I am not in a position to give an estimate of the output of milk in Great Britain for the present year.
asked the Minister of Agriculture the average number of children that have obtained milk daily under the milk-in-school scheme in each quarter since the passing of the Milk Act, 1934, and what the cost to the Exchequer has been?
Years (June to May). Million gallons. 1931–32 1,303 1932–33 1,349 1933–34 1,379. 1934–35 1,399
The foregoing figures represent the total amount of liquid milk estimated to have been available for all purposes other than for feeding to stock, and are based on the information obtained through the voluntary census of 1930–31, assuming that the average lactation yield has not changed since that date.
The information at my disposal is not sufficient to enable me to say how much of the total production was consumed as liquid milk and how much was used in factories for milk products.
The following particulars of milk sold for liquid consumption and for manufacture by the Milk Marketing Board have been supplied by the Board.
Precise figures showing the average number of children that have obtained milk daily under the milk-in-schools scheme in each quarter since the passing of the Milk Act, 1934, are not available, but at the end of March, 1935, the number of children receiving milk under the scheme, free or for payment, in grant-earning schools in England and Wales, was about 2,750,000. At the beginning of October, 1935, the corresponding figure was about 2,500,000. Exchequer grants amounting to £447,495 have so far been paid to the Milk Marketing Board for England and Wales in respect of milk supplied during the period 1st October, 1934, to 31st October, 1935. For similar information relating to Scotland, I would refer my hon. Friend to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the figure of 2,750,000 which he has given is the average number of children per school day, or the total number of individual children?
It is the total according to the returns sent in by the various headmasters. The exact details, I am afraid, I do not carry in my mind; if the hon. Lady desires them, perhaps she will put down a question.
If one child gets two portions of milk in a day, is he counted twice over?
No, Sir, he is not.
asked the Minister of Agriculture how many gallons of milk have been manufactured into cheese up to a recent date since the passing of the Milk Act, 1934; and what the cost to the Exchequer has been?
Under Section 1 of the Milk Act, payments amounting to £776,121 have been made to the Milk Marketing Board for England and Wales in respect of 140,106,828 gallons of milk sold for manufacture into cheese during the period 1st April, 1934, to 30th November, 1935. Under Section 2, payments amounting to £5,924 have been made in respect of 846,293 gallons of milk manufactured into cheese by the Board during the period 1st April, 1934, to 31st March, 1935. Under Section 3, payments amounting to £120,236 have been made in respect of 20,653,552 gallons of milk manufactured into cheese on farms during the period 1st April, 1934, to 30th June, 1935.
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he can give, to the most recent convenient date, figures showing the number of producers of milk entitled to receive the bonus for pure milk provided by the Milk Act of 1934; what is the output of such producers; and what improvement the figures show over the corresponding figures at any earlier date?
The number of producers of milk from herds certified by the Ministry under the Attested Herds Scheme to date is 59, who own a total of 65 herds comprising 2,558 animals which have been attested at various dates since 1st February, 1935. Twenty-two of the herds are licensed to produce Certified or Grade A (T.T.) milk, and, in cases in which the owners have claimed exemption in respect of such milk from the Milk Marketing Scheme, they are not entitled to receive the bonus under the Attested Herds Scheme. The only figures indicating output are contained in the claims for the 1d. per gallon bonus payable in respect of milk sold through the Marketing Scheme. Claims have been received in respect of 40 herds only, covering an average of about five months each, and a total production of 237,076 gallons. There are no corresponding figures in respect of any previous period.
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether any experiments, analogous to the Bishop Auckland potato experiment, have been made to ascertain the effect of differential milk prices on the public demand for milk; if so, what are the results; and, if not, whether any such experiments are in contemplation?
No experiment to ascertain the effect of differential prices on the public demand for milk has, so far as I am aware, been made on the lines of that conducted by the Potato Marketing Board at Bishop Auckland. The Milk Marketing Board for England and Wales prepared a scheme for the supply of milk at special prices to unemployed in the Merthyr Tydfil district, one object of which was to ascertain the effect of reduced prices on demand, but it was not found possible to introduce the scheme. Other schemes are still under consideration, but I cannot at present say whether it will be possible to proceed with them.
asked the Minister of Agriculture what has been the amount of the Exchequer grant actually paid during the last 12 months, or other ascertainable period, towards the supply of milk in schools and, secondly, towards the cost of milk supplied to manufacturers for milk products; and what has been the average price per gallon received by the farmers in both cases?
During the first 12 months (1st October, 1934, to 30th September, 1935) of the operation of the Milk-in-Schools Scheme in England and Wales, 22,750,000 gallons of milk were consumed in respect of which the Milk Marketing Board received £401,000 in grants from the Exchequer, an average rate of 4.23d. per gallon. During the same 12 months (1st October, 1934, to 30th September, 1935) (for which information is not yet complete) 200,000,000 gallons of milk were processed in England and Wales in respect of which the Milk Marketing Board received £1,061,000 by way of Exchequer advances, an average rate of 1.27d. per gallon. Individual producers actually received in respect of both supplies the pool price which has averaged throughout the 12 months in question 11.99d. per gallon.
Bovine Tuberculosis
asked the Minister of Agriculture what sums the Government have spent since 1934 on experiments to discover means of eliminating bovine tuberculosis; and whether any results have been achieved?
Research on bovine tuberculosis has been in progress for some years at the Institute of Animal Pathology, Cambridge, and, to some extent, at the Ministry's Veterinary Laboratory, and the National Institute for Research in Dairying at Reading. It is not possible to give a precise figure of the sums expended, which form part of the general expenditure of the institutions named. Since 1934, however, in consultation with the Agricultural Research Council, special grants have been made to extend the work at Cambridge, amounting to £375 in the year ended 31st March, 1935, and £5,320 in the year ending 31st March next. The subjects of the investigation are the use of B.C.G. vaccine and of tuberculin and the work is still in progress.
Children (Employment)
asked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of the proposal in the Education (Scotland) Bill to forbid exemption from school attendance to children who are under 14 years of age, the Government has now decided to ratify the draft convention adopted by the International Labour Conference in 1921 whereby children under 14 years of age are not to be employed in agriculture during school hours?
I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Mathers) on 13th February.
Ground Leases
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been directed to the hardship suffered by owners of houses and shops in consequence of the termination of their leases and the excessive demand of landowners for increased ground rents, together with lump sum payments if the present owners are permitted to continue to occupy their premises; and whether he will take steps during the present Parliament to introduce legislation to enable owners of such property to purchase their land at reasonable prices?
The Landlord and Tenant Act, 1927, provides ample security for compensation in suitable cases for the occupiers of premises used wholly or partly for the carrying on of any trade or business. I am not disposed to advise the promotion of legislation extending the principles of that Act to premises not occupied for the purposes of trade.
May I point out that the reply which the right hon. Gentleman has given is not in accordance with the question which I put down? I asked whether, in the case of leases which are now expiring, and upon which the owners are claiming enormous lump sums and very much increased rents in the future, it is the intention of the Government to introduce some reasonable Measure to enable people to purchase the land?
It is quite impossible, during this Session, to introduce any more legislation than has already been outlined.
Is the right hon. Gentleman sure that ground leases come under the Landlord and Tenant Act?
I am not a lawyer, and on that point I have given the answer as it was given to me. To the question whether it is possible to introduce legislation dealing with this subject, which is the only point brought before me, I must answer that there is certainly no prospect of legislation in this Session. Questions of detail as regards the incidence of such an Act should, I think, be addressed to the Ministry of Health.
While we are unifying leases generally, might we not unify ground leases?
Unemployment
Special Areas
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the publication of the Commissioners' report for the special areas, a day will be given for discussion?
asked the Prime Minister whether it is the intention of the Government to have the reports of the Commissioners for the special areas, which are now ready, discussed in this House at an early date?
The reports are engaging the attention of the Government and there will be opportunities in the normal course of business for the matter to be debated later in the Session.
Will the right hon. Gentleman give an early day for a Vote of Censure to be put down by my hon. Friends and myself for the continued neglect of this problem of the distressed areas?
Of course, I must consider a request of that kind. Doubtless the right hon. Gentleman will let me have it through the usual channels.
While the right hon. Gentleman is considering this matter in all its circumstances, will he also consider the question of the extension of the Commissioner's powers?
Will the right hon. Gentleman say approximately when he expects to be able to put the House in possession of the proposals of the Government?
Perhaps my hon. Friend will be good enough to put that question down.
Young Peesons (Glasgow)
asked the Minister of Labour the number of young persons between the age of 14 and 18 signing as unemployed in all the Employment Exchanges in the City of Glasgow, giving the numbers of both sexes signing at the respective exchanges?
As the reply includes a Table of figures, I will, if I may, circulate a statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the statement:
Numbers of unemployed boys and girls, under 18 years of age, on the registers of Employment Exchanges in Glasgow at 20th January, 1936. Employment Exchange. Boys. Girls. Total. Glasgow Central 364 389 753 Glasgow South Side 471 349 820 Bridgeton 594 373 967 Finnieston 169 143 312 Govan 383 339 722 Kinning Park 243 217 460 Marvhill 290 276 566 Parkhead 745 611 1,356 Partick 225 156 381 Springburn 451 425 876 Total 3,935 3,278 7,213
Disability Pension
asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that Mr. John Brady, 115, Dunchatter Street, Glasgow, E.I, is having his disability pension taken into account by the Unemployment Assistance Board; that this man receives his pension from the Glasgow Corporation as a disability pension; and whether he proposes taking any action in the matter?
My right hon. Friend wrote to the hon. Member on 11th January explaining that this pension is not one of those to which Sections 38 and 54 of the Unemployment Assistance Act, 1934, apply. He understands also that only part of the pension has been taken into account in determining the applicant's needs, and that the determinations made on this basis have been confirmed by the appeal tribunal whose decision is final.
Can the hon. and gallant Member not do something to put these people in a similar position to others who have their full disability pensions excluded from consideration?
The present arrangement to which the hon. Member refers is in accordance with existing legislation. What he suggests would mean the introduction of fresh legislation.
Does the hon. and gallant Member consider introducing legislation in order to do justice to these cases?
I cannot give any undertaking to the hon. Member.
Statistics
asked the Minister of Labour the number of persons registered as unemployed at Castleford,
Unemployed persons on the registers of the undermentioned Employment Exchanges at 20th January, 1936, and 28th January, 1935. — Castleford. Normanton. Pontefract. 20th January, 1936. 28th January, 1935. 20th January, 1936. 28th January, 1935. 20th January, 1936. 28th January, 1935. Total number of unemployed persons, aged 14 years and over, on registiors. 4,622 5,490 1,134 1,437 3,361 2,648 Numbers with claims admitted for unemployment insurance benefit. 1,695 2,398 438 739 1,461 1,037 Numbers with applications authorised for unemployment allowances. 2,386 2,400 545 536 1,256 1,028
Mandated Territories
asked the Prime Minister whether the statement made in the House by the then Secretary of State for the Colonies, replying on his behalf on 15th February, 1927, that mandates are in no sense a form of tenure which is held by us from the League of Nations, still represents the view of His Majesty's Government?
I would invite the attention of my hon. Friend to the statement made in this House by the then Secretary of State for the Colonies on 21st February, 1927, when he explained that under Article 119 of the Treaty of Versailles the former German oversea possessions were surrendered to the Principal Allied and Associated Powers; that, in accordance with Article 22 of the Treaty those Powers agreed that mandates to administer these territories should be conferred upon the Governments concerned and proposed the terms in which the mandates should be formulated; and that, after arranging the allocation and delimitation of the territories as between themselves, the
Normanton, and Pontefract on the latest date available; the number in receipt of unemployment insurance benefit; the number receiving unemployment assistance; and the comparative figures for the same period in 1935?
As the reply includes a Table of figures, I will, if I may, circulate a statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the statement:
Governments concerned agreed to accept their respective mandates and to exercise them on behalf of the League of Nations on the proposed terms—following which, the mandates were confirmed by the Council of the League.
Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that any attempt to identify these territories as British colonies may have dangerous repercussions in the Pacific and elsewhere?
I am most grateful to the hon. Member, and I will certainly bear it in mind.
Honours (Political Services)
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the meaning of the term political services, used as a qualification for recommending the granting of honours, is not generally understood by the public; and whether he can define more exactly what this term connotes?
I would refer the hon. Member to the report of the Royal Commission which inquired into the subject of honours in 1922 (Cmd. 1789 of 1922), where I think the term is fully explained.
Does subservience to party headquarters at by-election times rank high as a political service and, if so, may we expect shortly a large grant of honours to Scotland?
If the hon. Member will be good enough to read that report, he will be more familiar with the question perhaps than he is at the moment. The connotation of the phrase is somewhat wide.
Will the right hon. Gentleman publish the report that he quotes in his reply to the question in the OFFICIAL REPORT?
The Command Paper can be obtained by asking for it at the Vote Office.
What is the distinction between political and party services?
Post Office
Tangier Mail
asked the Postmaster-General whether he will make arrangements for the mail for Tangier to be forwarded via Gibraltar when weather conditions prevent the service between Algeciras and Tangier being maintained, or whether, owing to the unreliability of the present service, he will make permanent arrangements for the mail to the British Post Office in Tangier being shipped from Gibraltar?
I am assured that mails are now reaching Tangier regularly by the normal route via Algeciras; but I am inquiring whether it would be practicable to forward mails by way of Gibraltar in emergency, and I will write to my hon. Friend.
Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us on how many occasions for three consecutive days the mail did not reach Tangier from Algeciras although the connection was maintained with Gibraltar?
I cannot give the information without notice. The delay has been due, I am told, to exceptionally bad weather.
Men and Women EmployéS
asked the Post master-General the proportions of men and women employed in the Post Office 10 years ago and at the present time?
The proportions of men and women employed in the Post Office were in 1925 76½ per cent. men and 23½ per cent. women. On 1st January, 1936, the relative proportions were 77½ per cent. men and 22½ per cent. women, so that the proportion of men has slightly increased.
Statistics (Liverpool Area)
asked the Postmaster-General whether there has been an increase or a decrease in the average weekly number of letters, post cards, and circulars posted in the Liver pool area during 1935; and whether he can indicate to what this increase or decrease is due?
There has been during 1935 an increase of over 24 per cent. in postings in the Liverpool area, which now average 6,000,000 a week. This increase is due in part to the improvement in trade, and in part to competition traffic.
Postage (Unemployed Persons)
asked the Postmaster-General under what conditions unemployed persons are permitted free postage in making application for employment?
The hon. Member appears to be under a misapprehension, as unemployed persons are not allowed the privilege of free postage in making applications for employment, and I have no authority to make such a concession. An application for employment can be sent in an open cover at the Inland printed paper rate of ½d., provided the application is written on an appropriate printed form.
Will the right hon. Gentleman make plain—because many unemployed men are interested in this— what he means by the appropriate printed form?
It would be a plain piece of paper, for instance, on which the words "Application for employment" were printed or hand-stamped; then they can send the letter for a halfpenny.
With the words "application for employment" on the envelope?
On the letter.
Does the right hon. Gentleman mean that unemployed men must order printed stationery in order to get the benefit of this concession?
My answer made it clear that that was not necessary.
Houses of Parliament (Visitors.)
asked the First Commissioner of Works whether he is aware that many persons desirous of visiting the Houses of Parliament are ignorant of the fact that the Houses of Parliament are open to the public on Saturdays; and whether he will take steps to make this fact more generally known?
I am under the impression that it is general knowledge that the Houses of Parliament are open to the public on Saturdays, and that most of the guide books to London contain this information, but if my hon. Friend can suggest any other steps to make the fact more widely known I shall be happy to consider them.
Crown Proceedings Committee
asked the Attorney-General whether, in view of the present method required in any legal procedure or action by a member of the public against the Crown, he will consider introducing legislation to give effect to the findings of the committee appointed by the Lord Chancellor and the Attorney-General in December, 1921, to consider the position of the Crown as a litigant?
I understand that the report to which the hon. Member refers is that of the Crown Proceedings Committee, which was presented in 1927. The report of this committee raised questions of considerable controversy, but expressed no opinion upon them. I do not think that I can add anything further to what my right hon. and learned Friend said on 6th December, 1933, namely, that it is not considered desirable to introduce legislation upon this subject unless it is reasonably clear that it will receive general consent in both Houses of Parliament.
Were the findings of the committee unanimous?
The committee did not make any findings at all. Having been sitting for about three years discussing the merits of the question, it was instructed by the then Lord Chancellor, Lord Haldane, to assume that certain changes were desirable and to recommend how those changes should be effected in its report. The report consists almost entirely of a draft of a Bill made on certain assumptions.
Are the Government prepared to introduce a Bill on the lines of that draft Bill?
That question should be addressed to the Prime Minister.
Is there any reason to suppose that there is any objection to the Bill except on the Front Bench?
Statute of Limitations
asked the Attorney-General whether, as the Statute of Limitations applies only to civil actions, he will now consider taking steps to allow it to apply to minor criminal offences also?
A limitation in the time in which proceedings may be instituted in the case of criminal offences which may be punishable summarily is already imposed by Section 11 of the Summary Jurisdiction Act, 1848. There are in addition special limitations imposed in a number of other cases by Statutes.
For the benefit of hon. Members, will the hon. and learned Gentleman tell us how long it is?
Six months.
Maternal Mortality
asked the Minister of Health how many mothers died in the past 12 months after their removal from a maternity hospital by ambulance to another hospital?
My right hon. Friend is not aware of any statistics on this subject, but no such case as the hon. Member refers to has been brought to his notice during the past 12 months.
National Park (Dovedale)
asked the Minister of Health if he will take steps to have Dovedale included in a scheme for a national park?
Planning schemes are in course of preparation for areas comprising Dovedale. No action on the part of my right hon. Friend, therefore, appears to be necessary pending the submission of these schemes for his approval.
Newfoundland (Fishing Industry)
asked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether any steps are being taken to secure from fellow-sanctionist countries concessions to compensate Newfoundland for the severe loss to her fishing industry which has resulted from the policy of sanctions?
As I explained in reply to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Blackburn (Sir W. Smiles) on 10th February, the decline in Newfoundland's exports to Italy is only partially attributable to the imposition of sanctions. In all the circumstances, the suggestion of my hon. Friend would not, I feel, be practicable.
Is my right hon. Friend aware of the great suffering in Newfoundland arising from the prohibition of fish exports to Italy, and will he not seriously reconsider his decision?
The exports of fish into Italy are not prohibited by sanctions, as I pointed out in the answer to which I have made reference.
Ministry of Labour (Staff)
asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that his Department is declining to pay for extra time worked on the eve of the King's funeral; and whether he will take steps to ensure that the treatment meted out to the staffs is not less favourable than that in other Government Departments?
I am not aware that the arrangements in my Department were any different from those in other Government Departments.
Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that there is a real foundation for this complaint, and will he not look into it?
I have answered the question which the hon. Member asked. As a matter of fact, there was one case which has been brought to my notice, that of an officer who worked late on the evening of the 27th and also full time on the following day. Arrangements have been made for his extra remuneration, and similar cases of that kind will be treated in a similar way.
asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that there are some 20 Whitley committees operating within his Department for the purpose of dealing with matters affecting the staff; and whether he is satisfied that the expenditure of time and money involved by the attendance of officials of the Ministry at these various meetings is justified, having regard to the discontent which exists among Ministry of Labour staffs?
I presume that the hon. Member is referring to the sub-committees of the Departmental Whitley Council. My right hon. Friend appreciates that the work of these committees takes up a considerable amount of time in the aggregate, and he considers that it is time well spent if, as he believes, it helps materially to promote the efficiency of the Department.
Does not the hon. and gallant Gentleman know that there is a good deal of dissatisfaction on both sides in regard to this matter, and that there is a general feeling that the number could be materially reduced with advantage?
I do not suppose that anybody really wants to spend more time on the sub-committees than is necessary for the efficient working of the scheme.
Royal Navy (His Majesty's Ship "Ark Royal")
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty how much has been already spent on the "Ark Royal," and how much remains to be spent?
It is estimated that £300,000 will be spent on this vessel by 31st March next, and approximately £3,300,000 will then remain to be spent on her.
In view of the change of opinion in the Navy on the value of these vessels, will steps be taken to prevent good money being thrown after bad?
I think bearing in mind the purpose of the ship, the design is wise and economic. The Admiralty is fully alive to changes of opinion.
Are we to understand that the Admiralty are unaware of the criticism among all ranks in the Navy since the two aircraft carriers were sent to Alexandria?
Education
Epidemics (School Books)
asked the President of the Board of Education whether his attention has been called to the burning of school books in the Pinxton district of North Derbyshire owing to an epidemic of scarlet fever; whether the method stated is universal; and, if so, what was the cost during the past 12 months in renewal of books and the Department or authority responsible for the cost?
I have no information regarding the burning of school books in the Pinxton district, but I am making inquiries. I understand that it is not the universal practice to destroy school books after an epidemic, but the question in a particular case is one to be decided by the local education authority on the advice of the medical officer of health. I have no information as to the cost involved in the renewal of books destroyed in this way during the past 12 months, but any such expenditure by a local education authority would receive grant from the board.
Expenditure
asked the President of the Board of Education the amounts of public moneys expended per head of the population on education by Great Britain, France, United States of America, Germany, and Italy, and the ratio of such expenditure to the public expenditure of these countries, respectively?
I am afraid that owing to the difference in budgetary methods and the difficulty of ascertaining and distinguishing both State and local expenditure it is not possible to give a comparative statement on the lines desired by my hon. Friend. I shall, however, be pleased to let my hon. Friend have such information as is available, should he desire it.
Secondary Schools
asked the President of the Board of Education when he intends to remove altogether the existing restrictions on the discretion of authorities in regard to the proportion of children who may be admitted to secondary schools either free or at reduced fees?
The regulations for secondary schools will be amended as from the beginning of the school year 1936–37 so as to provide for the removal of the existing restriction on the maximum number of special places which may be awarded.
State Scholarships
79 and 80.
asked the President of the Board of Education (1) whether he can make any announcement on the promised increase in the number of State scholarships tenable at universities; and whether he will state how many of these scholarships are at present offered annually;
(2) whether he can give an approximate number of the students in secondary schools who will be eligible to compete in the annual examinations each year when an increased number of State scholarships are offered open to all secondary schools?
As stated in paragraph 12 of Circular 1444, the Regulations for the award of State scholarships are about to be amended so as to provide for the annual award of 360 State scholarships instead of the present number of 300. I regret I am unable to give the precise information for which the hon. Member asks in his second question, but I am satisfied, after taking into account all relevant factors, that the additional 60 scholarships are likely to be more than sufficient for candidates from non-grant-aided schools.
Is it possible to allocate a number of these State scholarships to Wales?
I would not take such a low opinion of the power of Wales to succeed in examinations, to give them an allotment which might not be as big as they might obtain in open competition.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the term "students in secondary schools" includes students at any secondary school, and not necessarily a State-aided school?
The whole point of the alteration is that it will not merely apply to students in State-aided secondary schools.
Maintenance Grants
asked the President of the Board of Education the number of local authorities that have operated the maintenance grants to necessitous children under Section 24 of the Education Act, 1921; and whether, if all local authorities were prepared to operate this section of the Act, the Government would be prepared to reimburse them for the whole or part of the expenditure?
As regards the first part of the question, the information was given in my answer to the hon. Member for Normanton (Mr. T. Smith) on 12th February, of which I am sending the hon. Member a copy. As regards the second part of the question, grant will be payable in respect of expenditure by local education authorities on maintenance allowances awarded under Section 24 of the Act to children over the age for the time being of compulsory school attendance.
Elementary Schools (Free Milk and Dinners)
asked the President of the. Board of Education what would be the cost of supplying a free ration of one-third of a pint of milk every school day to every child in elementary schools, and upon what number of children and price of milk is the estimate based; and what would be the additional cost if the provision were extended to weekdays when schools do not meet?
There are about 5,300,000 children attending public elementary schools in England and Wales. To supply this number with one-third of a pint of milk daily for 200 school days about 44,000,000 gallons of milk would be required. Including weekdays when the schools do not meet about 69,000,000 gallons would be required. I am not in a position to give an estimate of the cost to public funds which would be involved if this quantity of milk were supplied free, as the price per gallon could only be determined after negotiations with the milk industry.
asked the President of the Board of Education what would be the approximate cost of sup plying free dinners on school days to all children attending elementary schools and upon what number of children, cost per meal, and cost of additional premises where necessary is the estimate based; and what would be the additional cost if the provision were extended to week days when schools do not meet?
If free dinners were provided on 200 school days for all the 5,300,000 children attending public elementary schools in England and Wales, the cost to public funds, assuming a gross cost of 5d. per meal including food and overhead charges, would be about £21,000,000 per annum. If the provision were extended to week days when the schools do not meet, the cost would be about £33,000,000 per annum. I am unable to estimate the cost of the additional premises which would be necessary.
Irish Free State (Coal and Cattle Agreement)
( by Private Notice ) asked the Under-Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether he has any information to give the House on the subject of our relations with the Irish Free State?
As the result of discussions during the last few weeks, it has now been agreed that the arrangement made a year ago in regard to the export of coal from the United Kingdom to the Irish Free State and of cattle from the Irish Free State to the United Kingdom on a £ for £ basis shall be continued. Following the arrangement of a year ago, the United Kingdom exports of coal to the Irish Free State in 1935 were 1 million tons greater than in 1934, and it is anticipated that there will be a further increase in 1936. It will be remembered that the Irish Free State Government have recently removed the duty of 5s. a ton on United Kingdom coal. Further, the United Kingdom Government will reduce by 10 per cent. ad valorem (or by a corresponding proportion in the case of specific duties) the existing duties on live animals and on meat, except pigs and pig meat, and make additional reductions in the duties on horses, sheep and lambs, and mutton and lamb; minor adjustments will also be made in the reduced cattle duties. The arrangements for the regulation of imports of bacon and hams into the United Kingdom in 1936 will provide for an increase of 10 per cent. in supplies from the Irish Free State as compared with 1935. The Irish Free State Government, for their part, will reduce by 10 per cent. ad. valorem (or by a corresponding proportion in the case of specific duties) the existing Emergency Duties on United Kingdom goods. Finally, the Irish Free State Government will reserve for the United Kingdom one-third of the imports of cement into the Irish Free State, practically the whole of which has come from foreign countries in recent years. The reductions of duties on both sides will take effect on Wednesday, 19th February. Copies of a Treasury Order relating to the new rates of the United Kingdom will be available in the Vote Office to-night.
Does that mean that full particulars will be available in the Vote Office?
Yes, so far as the duties are affected.
Is this due to the change in the Dominions Secretaryship?
The emergency duties on British goods are lightened. Can my right hon. Friend say to what goods that change of duties applies?
To electrical goods and apparatus, machinery, various iron and steel products, cycles and parts, cement, sugar and manufactures of sugar. The answer to the hon. Member for Plaistow (Mr. Thorne) is that this is really a continuation of what was done when the late Secretary of State for the Dominions was in Office.
Having made such a satisfactory progress in arrangements with the Irish Free State, will the Government now proceed to deal with other outstanding questions?
Business of the House
May I ask the Prime Minister what business it is proposed to take in the event of the suspension of the Eleven o'Clock Rule being carried?
We are suspending the Eleven o'Clock Rule in order to obtain the Milk Money Resolution. We hope also to take the Unemployment (Northern Ireland Agreement) Money Resolution, the Second Reading of the Pensions (Governors of Dominions, etc.) Bill and the following three Orders, which are exempted Business: Report stage of the Education, Money Resolution, and the two draft Orders in Council with regard to the constitution of Sind and Orissa as separate Provinces, which draft Orders were debated in the House on Friday, 7th February.
Motion made, and Question put,
"That the Proceedings on Government Business be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[ The Prime Minister. ]
The House divided: Ayes, 228; Noes, 100.
Division No. 43.] AYES. [3.54 p.m. Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G. Duncan, J. A. L. Morrison, W. S. (Cirencester) Anstruther-Gray, W. J. Dunglass, Lord Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J. Assheton, R. Dunne, P. R. R. Neven-Spence, Maj. B. H. Astor, Hon. W. W. (Fulham, E.) Eden, Rt. Hon. A. Nicolson, Hon. H. G. Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Edmondson, Major Sir J. O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh Balfour, Capt. H. H.(Isle of Thanet) Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E. Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. W. G. Balniel, Lord Elliston, G. S. Orr-Ewing, I. L. Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Elmley, Viscount Palmer, G. E. H. Baxter, A. Beverley Emmott, C. E. G. C. Patrick, C. M. Beauchamp, Sir B. C. Emrys-Evans, P. V. Petherick, M. Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h) Entwistle, C. F. Pickthorn, K. W. M. Beit, Sir A. L. Erskine Hill, A. G. Pilkington, R. Bennett, Capt. Sir E. N. Everard, W. L. Ponsonby, Col. C. E. Bernays, R. H. Findlay, Sir E. Ralkes, H. V. A. M. Bird, Sir R. B. Fleming, E. L. Ramsbotham, H. Blair, Sir R. Fraser, Capt. Sir I Rankin, R. Bossom, A. C. Fremantle, Sir F. E. Rathbone, Eleanor (English Univ's.) Boulton, W. W. Ganzonl, Sir J, Rayner, Major R. H. Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir J. Reid, Sir D. D. (Down) Bower, Comdr. R. T. Gluckstein, L. H. Remer, J. R. Bowyer, Capt. Sir G. E. W. Goodman, Col. A. W. Rickards, G. W. (Skipton) Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B. Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral) Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool) Brass, Sir W. Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Ropner, Colonel L. Briscoe. Capt. R. G. Grigg, Sir E. W. M. Ross, Major Sir R. D. (L'derry) Brocklebank, C. E. R. Grimston, R. V. Rowlands, G. Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith) Guinness, T. L. E. B. Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir E. A. Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury) Gunston, Capt. D. W. Runciman. Rt. Hon. W. Browne, A. C. (Belfast, W.) Hacking, Rt. Hon. D. H. Russell, A. West (Tynemouth) Bull, B. B. Hamilton, Sir G. C. Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen) Bullock, Capt. M. Hanbury, Sir C. Salmon, Sir I. Burgin, Dr. E. L. Hannah, I. C. Samuel, Sir A. M. (Farnham) Burton, Col. H. W. Harvey, G. Samuel, M. R. A. (Putney) Butler, R. A. Haslam, H. C. (Horncastle) Sandys, E. D. Campbell, Sir E. T. Heilgers, Captain F. F. A. Savery, Servington Cartland, J. R. H. Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan- Scott, Lord William Carver, Major W. H. Herbert, A. P. (Oxford U.) Shakespeare, G. H. Cary, R. A. Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth) Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A. Castlereagh, Viscount Hills, Major Rt. Hon. J. W. (Ripon) Smiles, Lieut.-Colonel Sir W. D. Cautley, Sir H. S. Holmes, J. S. Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen) Cayzer, Sir C. W. (City of Chester) Horsbrugh, Florence Smithers, Sir W. Cayzer, Sir H. R. (Portsmouth, S.) Howitt, Dr. A. B. Somervell, Sir D. B. (Crewe) Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.) Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.) Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham) Hudson, R. S. (Southport) Southby, Comdr. A. R. J. Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir A. (Br.W.) Hulbert, N. J. Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'l'd) Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n) Hurd, Sir P. A. Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.) Channon, H. Jackson, Sir H. Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.) Chapman, A. (Rutherglen) James, Wing-Commander A. W. Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Chapman, Sir S. (Edinburgh, S.) Jarvis, Sir J. J. Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F. Clarke, F. E. Keeling, E. H. Sutcliffe, H. Clarry, Sir R. G. Kerr, H W. (Oldham) Tasker, Sir R. I. Clydesdale, Marquess of Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.) Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne) Cobb, Sir C. S. Kimball, L. Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby) Colman, N. C. D. Kirkpatrick, W. M. Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford) Colville, Lt.-Col. D. J. Knox, Major-General Sir A. W. F. Titchfield, Marquess of Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.) Law, R. K. (Hull, S.W.) Touche, G. C. Cooper, Rt. Hn. A. Duff(Wst'r S.G'gs) Levy, T. Tree, A. R. L. F. Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh.W.) Liddall, W. S. Tryon, Major Rt. Hon. G. C. Courtauld, Major J. S. Lindsay, K. M. Tufnell, Lieut.-Com. R. L. Craddock, Sir R. H. Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J. Walker-Smith, Sir J. Cranborne, Viscount Lloyd, G. W. Ward, Irene (Wallsend) Croft, Brig.-Gen. Sir H. Page Locker-Lampson, Comdr. O. S. Wardlaw-Milne, Sir J. S. Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C Lumley, Capt. L. R. Warrender, Sir V. Cross, R. H. Lyons, A. M. Waterhouse, Captain C. Crowder, J. F. E. Mabane, W. (Huddersfield) Wayland, Sir W. A. Cruddas, Col. B. MacAndrew, Lt.-Col. Sir C. G. Wedderburn, H. J. S. Davies, C. (Montgomery) MacDonald, Rt. Hn. J. R. (Scot. U.) Willoughby de Eresby, Lord Davies, Major G. F. (Yeovil) MacDonald, Rt. Hon M. (Ross) Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir A. T. (Hitchin) Davison, Sir W. H. Macnamara, Capt. J. R. J. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G. De la Bère, R. Maitland, A. Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Denman, Hon. R. D. Makins, Brig.-Gen. E. Wise, A. R. Denville, Alfred Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. Womersley, Sir W. J. Despencer-Robertson, Major J. A. F. Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J. Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley Dorman-Smith, Major R. H. Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth) Young, A. S. L. (Partick) Dower, Capt. A. V. G. Mitchell, H. (Brentford and Chiswick) Duckworth, G. A. V. (Salop) Moreing, A. C. TELLERS FOR THE AYES — Dugdale, Major T. L. Morgan, R. H. Sir George Penny and Lieut.-Colone Duggan, H. J. Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. Sir A. Lambert Ward.
NOES. Acland, Rt. Hon. Sir F. Dyke Adamson, W. M. Banfield, J. W. Acland, R. T. D. (Barnstaple) Anderson, F. (Whitehaven) Bellenger, F. Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.) Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R. Benson, G. Broad, F. A. Henderson, T. (Tradeston) Pritt, D. N. Brown, C. (Mansfield) Hicks, E. G. Quibell, J. D. Burke, W. A. Holland, A. Richards, R. (Wrexham) Charleton, H. C. Hopkin, D. Riley, B. Chater, D. Jagger, J. Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.) Cluse, W. S. Jenkins, A. (Pontypool) Rowson, G. Cocks, F. S. Johnston, Rt. Hon. T. Salter, Dr. A. Compton, J. Jones, A. C. (Shipley) Sexton, T. M. Cove, W. G. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Shinwell, E. Daggar, G. Kelly, W. T. Short, A. Dalton, H. Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T. Silverman, S. S. Davies, D. L. (Pontypridd) Kirby, B. V. Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe) Davles, R. J. (Westhoughton) Lansbury, Rt. Hon. G. Smith, E. (Stoke) Day, H. Leach, W. Smith, Rt. Hon. H. B. Lees- (K'ly) Dobble, W. Lee, F Smith, T. (Normanton) Ede, J. C. Leonard, W. Stephen, C. Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.) Leslie, J. R. Stewart, W. J. (H'ghtn-le-Sp'ng) Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty) Lunn, W. Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth) Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H. Macdonald, G. (Ince) Thorne, W. Foot, D. M. McEntee, V. La T. Thurtle, E. Gallacher, W. McGhee, H. G. Tinker, J. J. Gardner, B. W. McGovern, J. Walkden, A. G. Garro-Jones, G. M. MacMillan, M. (Western Isles) Watkins, F. C. George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) Maxton, J. Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. J. C. Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. Messer, F. Whiteley, W. Grenfell, D. R. Montague, F. Wilkinson, Ellen Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth) Paling, W. Williams, T. (Don Valley) Hall, G. H. (Aberdare) Parker, H. J. H. Windsor, W. (Hull, C.) Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Young, Sir R. (Newton) Hardle, G. D. Potts, J. Harris, Sir P. A. Price, M. P. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Mr. Groves and Mr. Mathers.
New Member Sworn
Right hon. Malcolm MacDonald, for the County of Inverness and Ross and Cromarty (Ross and Cromarty Division).
Members Sworn
Several Members took and subscribed the Oath.
Selection (Standing Committees)
Standing Committee A
Sir Henry Cautley reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee A (added in respect of the Unemployment Insurance (Agriculture) Bill): Lord Dunglass; and had appointed in substitution: Lieut.-Colonel Llewellin.
Standing Committee D
Sir Henry Cautley further reported from the Committee; That they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee D: Colonel Burton; and had appointed in substitution: Colonel Cruddas.
Sir Henry Cautley further reported from the Committee: That they had discharged the following Members from Standing Committee D (added in respect of the Sugar Industry (Reorganization) Bill): Mr. Albery, Mr. Creech Jones, Sir Joseph Lamb, Lord William Scott, and Mr. Spens; and had appointed in substitution: Major Courtauld, Mr. James Hall, Captain Macnamara, Mr. Ross Taylor, and Sir Lambert Ward.
Reports to lie upon the Table.
Milk (Extension of Temporary Provisions) [Money]
Considered in Committee, under Standing Order No. 69.
[Sir DENNIS HERBERT in the Chair.]
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That it is expedient—
(1)to amend the Milk Act, 1934—
(2)to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of such sums as may fall to be defrayed by reason of the aforesaid amendments to the said Act;
(3)to make minor and consequential amendments in the said Act."—( King's Recommendation signified. )—[ Mr. Rams- botham. ]
4.5 p.m.
This Financial Resolution is preliminary to a Bill to be introduced shortly in order to extend the period of certain provisions of the Milk Act of 1934. I shall give a brief statement of the situation prior to the Act of 1934, particularly for the benefit of those hon. Members who were not present during the Debates on the 1934 Act, so as to enable the Committee to judge of the need for those extensions. Prior to the Act of 1934 there were indications of an approaching crisis all over the world in respect of the production and marketing of liquid milk, and the situation in this country was no exception. There were two main markets, one for liquid milk and the other for manufacturing milk. The producers of liquid milk enjoyed a national protection which gave them in effect a protected price. But milk for manufacturing purposes, for cheese, condensed milk, tinned milk and so forth, had to compete with imported supplies. A great proportion of those supplies came from our Dominions free of duty. The price of that category of milk was, therefore, governed by world prices and the producer of it enjoyed no protection. Those who were catering primarily for that market were consequently receiving very low prices. Not unnaturally, they turned their thoughts to the liquid milk market. Although their distance from the big centres of population had in the past acted as a considerable deterrent, the development of transport in this country, the low price for manufacturing milk and in more remote areas the low cost of production, made it increasingly possible for these producers to go into the liquid milk market.
Consequently a price-cutting war was imminent and the increasing pressure of the low prices for manufacturing milk threatened to drag down the price of liquid milk and involve both sets of producers in common disaster. That calamity was averted by the marketing schemes under the Agricultural Marketing Acts, by means of which the proceeds of liquid milk and of manufactured milk were pooled, so that each producer got, broadly speaking, the average price obtained for the two categories.
Despite the introduction of the marketing schemes, the situation became very serious, and in the early part of 1934, as the result of very heavy importations of butter and cheese from the Dominions, the price of butter and cheese, and therefore the price of manufacturing milk, fell to a very low level. The cheese milk price was only 3.4 pence per lb. As the Committee know, the Government could not assist the industry with duties or quantitative regulations because of its obligations under the Ottawa and foreign agreements. Therefore the Government of that year proposed to the House, and the House endorsed the proposal, that pend- ing the time when those agreements could be modified the milk industry should be assisted by a system of advances related to the price of manufacturing milk and repayable in certain circumstances. The details of these advances are set out in the Act.
The purpose of the Act of 1934 was threefold. The first was to put a bottom into the milk market and to insure the organised producer against the stress of low values for his product, and to insure the consumer against high prices for milk. For if the producer went bankrupt a shortage of liquid milk and consequently a high price for it must eventually have been the result; or on the other hand the producer would have had to recoup himself for the low price of manufacturing milk by demanding a much higher price for his liquid milk, and in that event the consumer would have found the price too high. The demand would have fallen off and producer and consumer would have been involved in common disaster.
The second object was to clean up the herds, and the third was to stimulate the consumption of liquid milk. Accordingly the Act of 1934 provided first of all for advances to Milk Marketing Boards so as to secure a minimum price of 5d. a gallon in the summer and 6d. in the winter for milk manufactured in Great Britain, and similar advances to boards in respect of milk manufacured into cheese on farms in Great Britain. Secondly it provided grants for improving the quality of the milk supply by cleaning up the herds; and, thirdly, having underpinned the milk industry, it provided an encouragement of the only real and permanent solution, however distant it may be, the increased consumption of clean liquid milk.
Those proposals involved expenditure under three heads. First of all for underpinning the industry the estimated cost was £2,000,000 with a margin of £1,500,000 to cover two unknown factors—quantity and price. That was £3,500,000 in all. That payment was to be spread over two years, to expire on 31st March, 1936, with a period of repayment extending to March, 1938. Assistance on similar lines at a cost of £200,000 was provided for Northern Ireland. Secondly, there was the cost of cleaning up the herds—estimated at £750,000—spread over four years; and, thirdly, the purpose of stimulating consumption at a cost of £1,000,000 spread over two years. Power was taken to underpin the structure of the industry for two years and it was hoped that before the expiry of that period it would be possible to negotiate other arrangements which would enable the Government to introduce a permanent policy on milk and milk products. Apart from that, I suggest that it is desirable that the policy which was initiated in 1934, a policy designed for a period of two years, should be passed under review by the Committee.
In July, 1935, the Minister announced to the House that the Government proposed to review the dairy produce situation before March, 1936, in the light of our obligations under the trade agreements and the recommendations of the Reorganisation Commission for Milk for Great Britain. He went on to indicate the general policy of the Government in regard to butter and cheese imports and said that the Government were of opinion that if the conditions warranted a continuance of assistance to the home industry such assistance could best be afforded by a system of duties or levies. It has not yet been found practicable to bring into operation a long term policy on those lines. In particular, the General Election intervened and the report of the Reorganisation Commission appointed to review the whole working of the milk marketing schemes, which was expected before Christmas, is not likely to be available before May. The Committee will recognise that the matter is one of considerable complication and cannot be rushed if a satisfactory solution is to be found. Therefore I think it remains for us to consider the present position of the industry and the steps taken to deal with it pending the receipt of the report of the Reorganisation Commission and the carrying through of the necessary negotiations with supplying countries.
As far as we have got, in our two years' experience I suggest to the Committee there is no doubt whatever that the policy initiated by the Act of 1934 has been eminently successful, and has to a large extent achieved the objects which it was designed to achieve. We now have a steady price for liquid milk and at the same time the consumer has enjoyed an abundance of milk products at a very low price. The problem of 1934, however, is still with us. The estimate for 1934–35 was based on the assumption that 160,000,000 gallons to 180,000,000 gallons of milk would qualify for advance and that the cheese milk price would remain more or less at the then current level. In actual fact both the quantity and the average of advances were slightly higher than anticipated. The quantity rose to nearly 200,000,000 gallons while the rate of advance, being the difference between the cheese milk price and the standard price, averaged l½ and the actual cost was £1,292,750. For 1935–36—I am taking the financial years—there will be a large increase in the quantity of manufacturing milk; probably it will be 252,000,000 gallons against about 200,000,000 gallons. But this increase is more than counterbalanced by the increase in the official cheese price so that the rate of advance for the year is estimated at only 1.15d. per gallon and the latest estimate of cost for 1935–36 is £1,206,500, so that in both years the cost has been kept well under the estimate.
Obviously, in view of the increase I have mentioned, the position cannot be said to be easier than the position was two years ago. Accordingly, if in 1934 there was a ease, and the House thought there was a case, for assisting the industry there is to-day, in view of the undoubted success of the policy of 1934, an equally strong case for assistance pending the long-term policy. On that assumption the Government propose to extend the period of assistance in regard to manufacturing milk for 18 months until September, 1937, and in the case of the Measure for stimulating consumption until the same date. The scheme for cleaning up the herds does not require to be extended as it was fixed for a period of four years.
I now turn to the Financial Resolution, and I propose to give a short estimate of the cost. Paragraph ( a, i) relates to Sections 1, 2 and 3 of the Act of 1934 and the cost over the extended period is estimated to amount to not more than £2,500,000. For though the gallonage is expected to continue to increase, the indications are that the rate of increase will not be anything like as great as it has been for the past two years. The cheese milk price has also been rising but I do not think it can be assumed that the rise will continue and the estimate under this Resolution is based on the average figure of the first two years' working of the Milk Act, a figure of about 4d. Paragraph ( a, ii) deals with Northern Ireland at an esti- mated cost of £100,000. Paragraphs ( b, i) and ( b, ii) extend the period of liability to make repayments under Section 5 of the Act of 1934 for 18 months from 31st March, 1938. A criticism put forward during the 1934 Debate which will very probably be heard again to-day took the form of a suggestion. It was said, why not spend the money on making more cheap milk available for children instead of buttressing up the price of factory milk? No doubt in those discussions it will be sought to show that if the milk were made available to the children, precisely the same relief would be given to the industry as would be given under the proposals in the Resolution.
The short answer is, first, that even if you doubled or trebled the amount of milk already available at a cheap rate for children you would be left with a vast quantity of milk which in the absence of assistance would inevitably endanger the stability of the milk market. Secondly, I think the calculations made in support of that suggestion, as a rule, as far as I have observed, leave out the cost of distribution or where they include it reach a figure vastly beyond any figure contemplated in the Financial Resolution. As regards paragraph ( c ) of the Resolution, the bulk of the expenditure under Section 11 of the 1934 Act, in stimulating the consumption of milk, was devoted to the scheme for the provision of cheap milk for school children. That scheme operated from 1st October, 1934, and the Government's contribution to it was an aggregate of £1,000,000 for two years. It is proposed to continue the same rate of contribution for an additional 12 months at a cost of £500,000.
It is possible that at this stage the Committee would like some details as to the progress of the scheme during the last two years, and the points for improvement and points of difficulty which have arisen in its working. By way of preface, I would say that I, particularly and naturally, welcome this scheme because it forms a bridge between the Ministry of Agriculture and the Department of Education in which I have spent the last four years. Consequently I am able to look at the scheme from the point of view of the two departments. The scheme was particularly welcome to the Board of Education because we had for some time been contemplating an intensive drive in the direction of more extended physical edu- cation and physical training for children, a drive which would necessitate, apart from education in physical training, greater attention to the health of the children to be trained. I think many people, and I certainly share their view, had come to the conclusion that for many years, it may be said for many generations, education in our country might be said to have been lop-sided because a good deal more attention had been paid to the development of the brain than to that of the body, and in many cases at the expense of the body. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] Do hon. Gentlemen opposite disagree with that statement?
Entirely.
` Many people felt that too much attention had been paid to mental training and too little to physical training. At that time the board were carrying out experiments designed to ascertain whether the devotion of more school time to physical education had any effect in detracting from the intellectual results of the schooling. We found on the contrary that more devotion to physical training and physical education stimulated the intellectual abilities of the pupils and the intellectual results of the schooling. It was obvious that if you were going to carry out a big campaign to improve physical training you could not neglect on the other side the provision of better facilities for diet and nourishment, for those who were to be trained. It was for that reason that I felt that the action taken under the Act of 1934 to provide cheap milk for children, a daily ration of the most nourishing and wholesome protective food in the world was one of the best actions ever taken by any Government. At any rate, the supply of milk in schools has won the complete approval of the nation. It has captured the imagination of the people and appealed to everyone's sympathy and it contains within itself the germ, it may be, of far reaching developments.
The scheme is still in its experimental stage and the facts which I am about to put before the Committee now will show that there is need in many directions for further investigation. They will also show that even if it were possible at the moment to embark on a long-term policy it would still be advisable to operate the milk in schools scheme on an experimental basis in order to remove various difficulties before placing it on the permanent basis on which I trust it will be placed. Before the scheme began, there were about 900,000 children in the schools of England and Wales receiving milk at one penny per third of a pint, the full retail price, and their consumption was 10,000,000 gallons a year. That was done under arrangements initiiated by the National Milk Publicity Council in 1927, and I think the nation owes a deep debt of gratitude to that council for the pioneer work it has done in laying the foundation on which it has been possible for the Government to build. The arrangements under the Act of 1934 came into force in September, 1934, and by the spring of 1935 the number of children in public elementary schools taking milk had increased to about 2,500,000 children. If we add the children in other grant-aided schools the number to-day is in the neighbourhood of 2,750,000 and the consumption is just on 23,000,000 gallons.
The hon. Gentleman mentioned that children were receiving 10,000,000 gallons of milk at a penny for one-third of a, pint. Can he say how many children?
The figure was 900,000. I would like to point out that so far the experiment, which is a great experiment, has been most successful, and I do not think any Member of this House or any Member of the public outside would wish it to be terminated. There are, however, still some 2,800,000 scholars who are not drinking milk in schools, that is to say, more than 50 per cent. of our school population. I think the Committee will be interested to know details as to how they are distributed. There is a very considerable variation between different areas. For instance, 87 per cent. of all school departments in England and Wales operate the scheme and provide facilities for the drinking of cheap milk, but in some counties the percentage is very much lower than in others. I propose to give the names of those counties, as there may be hon. Members representing divisions in them who might be able to give invaluable assistance in stimulating the authorities to increase the consumption of milk.
The percentage of school departments operating the scheme in Dorset is 55 per cent., in Norfolk 55 per cent., in Shropshire 51 per cent., and in West Suffolk 51 per cent. In Wales the percentage in some counties is much lower than in others. In Cardigan the number of departments providing milk is 20 per cent., in Montgomery 36 per cent., and in Pembrokeshire 40 per cent. The Committee will note that these are rural counties. It is regrettably true that the country areas, where one would expect fresh milk would be easy to obtain, are the most backward. That reminds me of the pathetic story of a little girl from the town who went on a visit to a cousin in the country and who thought a heap of condensed milk tins behind the cottage was a cow's nest. There are, however, a good many reasons for the disparity to which I have drawn attention. One of the reasons is that sometimes it is difficult to secure supplies of milk which meet with the approval of the medical officer of health. More often there is difficulty in persuading the producer-retailer to undertake distribution on the ground that in his view the payment of the distribution is inadequate.
But even where the percentage of school departments operating the scheme is high, the percentage of children drinking milk in those departments shows great variations. Again, I propose to give specific instances in case hon. Members may be willing to look further into the matter. For instance, in Nelson and in Rochdale the percentage of children drinking milk is high, 77 per cent. and 67 per cent. respectively; but in Oldham, Middlesbrough, West Hartlepool, Sun-derland and Walsall, although the scheme operates in nearly all departments, the percentages of children drinking the milk in schools in those towns are 39, 39, 38, 34 and 29 respectively. The percentage also varies considerably according to the type of department. In March, 1935, 63 per cent. of the children in the infants' departments were taking milk, in the junior departments the percentage was 48 per cent., and in the senior departments 39 per cent. The last-named percentage is rather low, and it rather looks as if the older children very stupidly regard themselves as too old to drink milk. I have heard it said that the older girls refrained from taking milk on several occasions because it interferes with slimming.
Nonsense.
The hon. Lady does not agree.
I think it is sheer, unadulterated nonsense.
In some of the areas one cannot and should not overlook the financial conditions. That aspect must be qualified, however, by the remarkable difference which is shown between areas where comparatively similar financial conditions exist. For instance, the percentage of children drinking milk in schools in Rotherham is 39, but in Sheffield it is 64; in Grimsby 25, in Hull 60; in Cardiff 40, and in Newport 65; and when I compare Oxford, where there is 36 per cent., with Cambridge, where there is 61 per cent., I note with very great regret that Cambridge is still many lengths ahead.
There is still immense room for further efforts to be made to popularise this scheme and to bring the more backward areas into line with the more advanced areas, for it is very regrettable to learn that the latest figures show a certain falling off in the number of children under the scheme. The returns supplied to the Board of Education show that between March, 1935, and the beginning of October, 1935, the percentage of children in public elementary schools receiving milk, either free or paid for, fell from 51 per cent. to 47 per cent. It is true that such a fall may be seasonal but it is none the less disquieting, and it shows the need for further inquiry into the reasons for the decline, and, it may be, further stimulus.
With regard to Scotland, it is interesting to learn that there was a falling off in Lanarkshire, for example, between February and September last, when the number of children drinking milk in schools fell from 64,000 to 44,000. An inquiry was made into the reasons. The head teachers gave the following reasons, tabulated in this order of importance: (1) wearing off of the novelty; (2) interference of the milk ration with the appetite for the mid-day meal; (3) sickness caused by drinking cold milk; (4) the refusal of parents to pay because other children were receiving free milk; and (5) poverty. I think it should also be notel that prior to 1934 Scotland did not enjoy the advantages of the scheme which was initiated by the National Milk Publicity Council. I think the milk in schools scheme has taken a little longer to get under way in Scotland than in England, and probably for that reason Scottish Members will welcome even more than English Members the proposal for a further extension of the scheme. In Scotland, as in England, there is considerable disparity between the various areas. There are seven counties in Scotland in which no provision whatsoever is made and there are two others in which the percentage of children drinking milk is under 20; but in one-half of the areas in Scotland the proportion is over 50, and it is 70 per cent. in Glasgow and Lanark-shire.
No review of the milk in schools scheme would be complete if I did not express the thanks of all concerned to the school teachers. The operation of this scheme has, to my certain knowledge, placed upon them much additional work, and attention to much additional detail. The scheme would have been quite unworkable without their co-operation, and I cannot speak too highly of the services they have rendered ungrudgingly and unhesitatingly to make it a success. It would be nothing short of a national calamity if the milk in schools scheme were not continued, for I believe that if we can get the majority of school children to drink a supply of milk, it can do more than anything else to ensure their future health. Therefore, we are to-day faced, in effect, with three alternatives. The first is that we should allow the provisions of this 1934 Act to lapse. I suggest to the Committee that to do so would be deplorable, if for no other reason than that it would have a grievous economic effect on the milk industry. Secondly, we might retain the milk in schools scheme and, as some hon. Members suggest, terminate the assistance to manufacturing milk, devoting the amount of that assistance to further cheap milk for children. But that would still leave an immense gallonage on the manufacturing market and undoubtedly would so severely shake the price structure of the industry that one might almost say that, instead of building a consumption policy on milk, one would be building it on sand. We are, therefore, left with the third course, and that is the alternative which I recommend to the Committee. It is that we should continue our action along the lines of the 1934 Milk Act and extend these provisions in accordance with the terms of this Financial Resolution.
Before he resumes his seat, would the hon. Gentleman explain why the subsidy for manufacturing milk is prolonged for 18 months, whereas the subsidy for school milk is prolonged only for a year?
The school milk scheme started on 1st October, 1934, and is prolonged for 12 months in order that it shall terminate at the same time as the other scheme.
I do not know how seriously we were meant to take the reason given by the hon. Gentleman for some girls not taking milk in schools, but it would be interesting to know whether there is any difference between the proportion of girls and the proportion of boys drinking milk in schools.
I will investigate that matter. With regard to the reason to which the hon. Lady referred, my recollection is that it was given in a report of the Chief Medical Officer of the London County Council.
4.44 p.m.
The hon. Gentleman who introduced this subject opened his remarks by saying that the problem we are discussing is not purely a British problem, but a world one. Hon. Members on these benches cordially agree with that statement. The coming of the spirit-driven vehicle has, as a matter of fact, created this milk problem. It opened to the production and distribution of milk vast areas which were closed before. The problem with which we are faced here is the same problem that every other milk-producing country in the world has to face, namely, an alleged glut. Improved herd yields, the inventions of chemistry, and technical skill have created a so-called glut of milk in excess of the present capacity of the working-class consumer to purchase. The hon. Gentleman devoted the major portion of his remarks to the school feeding system alone. I recollect in 1929–30 having almost to sweat blood to extract £5,000 from the Empire Marketing Board's funds to get the practical experiment started in schools upon which the scheme which the hon. Gentleman has elaborated to-day has been founded.
But I cannot understand, when he says there must be a process of further investigation, what there is to investigate. From a study of the report of the Leighton-McKinlay examination in the schools in Lanarkshire, which we inaugurated in 1930, whereby 10,000 children were given a free ration of milk and contrasted with 10,000 children who got no ration of milk, it seems to me beyond all doubt whatever that there is a great physical and immediate advantage to be secured by the provision of milk in our schools. I know of no reason whatever for further experimental inquiry. The facts are beyond dispute. Men like Sir John Orr have committed themselves to the statements that we can increase the height of our school children by 3 inches and that we can increase the weight of our children by from 4 to 6 lbs., and the Leighton-McKinlay experiment in Lanarkshire, published by His Majesty's Stationery Office in great detail, although only covering a period of four months—that was the only period for which I could get the money—would seem to justify to the full the statements made by Sir John Orr and the other experts who have made this subject their own.
We went further. We sought to get co-operative marketing made a reality, because until you get that, you are not going to get pure milk. We discovered that milk had fallen to about 3d. per gallon to the producer, obviously a hopelessly non-remunerative price. Milk was being poured down the drains or fed to pigs at a time when, as I shall hope to show before I sit down, at least one-tenth of our population is attempting to live under the minimum standard laid down by the British Medical Association. Dr. Addison introduced a marketing board scheme giving the producers— obviously the first step in the organisation of the industry—power, if they got a certain majority, to regulate the market. It was obvious that the scheme, from a free, community point of view, did not go far enough. The consumers' interests were not and are not properly conserved, and it will be the duty of this House, before there can be peace in the industry, accompanied by a guaranteed market for the producer, to see to it that the consumers' interests are conserved. We get anarchy and chaos and unregulated production, and to our marketing board scheme we have added a process of applying what the hon. Gentleman himself called putting a bottom in the liquid milk market, but the machine and the ingenuity of man beat, year after year, all restrictive devices and limitations of this type. No sooner do you limit a market than, by some ingenious contrivance, either of transport or otherwise, your output is increased. The ingenuity of man beats restriction, and year after year you are faced with the problem of this alleged glut or surplus.
What are we going to do about it? We are facing now, in winter time, 27 per cent. of an alleged surplus. They do not know what to do with it. The right hon. Gentleman and his Government come along and provide considerable and growing sums of money for the purpose of converting this alleged surplus into dried milk, condensed milk, and umbrella handles. I asked the right hon. Gentleman to-day for figures as to the quantity of liquid milk that has been turned into dried milk for export, placed in cans and tins, and shoved away to Czechoslovakia and other countries. I am sorry that, by the time that I rose to speak, I had not received the figures, but perhaps the right hon. Gentleman can give me them later on, as some of my hon. Friends may want to refer to them. Those figures show this most remarkable state of affairs, that in a land where at least 10 per cent. of our people live below the British Medical Association's standard of nutrition, we are raising money from our national taxes to destroy an absolutely essential food, to turn it into umbrella handles and the like; and I would draw the attention of the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health to the figures which will come out later in this discussion. The very man in this House who should be most affected by the sheer waste of public money that is going on in the destruction of a good food, at a time when we are spending almost £100,000,000 in attempting to eradicate disease, is the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health. The Ministry of Health expenditure will require to be reconsidered in relation to the Ministry of Agriculture's expenditure before this problem is solved.
Let us look for a moment at the need for supplying liquid milk to the consumers of this country. I have quoted Sir John Orr. In his speech on "The Economics of Diet" to the British Association on the 10th September last, he declared that there was a three-inch difference in height at the age of 13 between the boys from poor schools, poor districts, and the boys from well-to-do-homes. As a result of prolonged study our nutrition experts have discovered, particularly in the Newcastle area, that 47 per cent. of the children of our poor are below standard weight, that 23 per cent. are anaemic, and that 36 per cent. are unhealthy and unfit. Where the family income is under 10s. per head per week, they discovered that there is only one pint per week of milk consumption, whereas where the family income is up to 45s. per head per week, the consumption of milk is up to five pints, or five times the consumption of liquid milk in the better circumstanced homes. Let the right hon. Gentleman take his Army statistics. The last report which I have, that for 1932, shows that 52 per cent. of the recruits applying for admission to the British Army failed on physical grounds, and of the 48 per cent. who got through, 36.9 per cent. were subsequently rejected on medical grounds.
My hon. Friend the Member for the Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams), in a debate in this House on the 31st May, 1934, quoted the results of a prolonged investigation in nutrition at Cardiff. The hon. Gentleman will find the figures in the OFFICIAL REPORT, but briefly they are these, that in the working-class quarters of Cardiff 26 per cent. of the houses never got any liquid milk at all. What has the Minister of Health to say about that? Again, 15 per cent. of the houses in the housing scheme and 9 per cent. of the houses in a good working-class area got no liquid milk at all, but in a middle-class area of Cardiff every house had its daily supply of liquid milk. I will not weary the Committee with additional quotations, but Dr. Addison, on 17th July last, quoted medical officer of health after medical officer of health to prove that the children of the unemployed were under-sized, pale, listless, flabby, mentally dull.
A League of Nations committee of experts reported on "The Physiological Bases of Nutrition," and I commend their recommendations to the Minister of Health. On page 14 they say that there should be at least one litre of milk per day for expectant and nursing mothers, as well as an abundant supply for infant children of all ages and adolescents. The practice of providing milk, either free or at a reduced price, is highly recommended. Then we know, from the Orr-Lloyd investigations which I have described, that 10 per cent. of our people are not spending 4s. per head on food. The British Medical Association's figure is 5s. 10½d. per week as a minimum. There are at least another 20 per cent. just on the border line of the Association's minimum standard. The House should not forget that that investigation was conducted on such a basis that they allowed for deficiencies and deteriorations in the food supply during digestion. They made the most minute and meticulous deductions, but even they say that 5s. 10d. per head per week must be spent on food or the people perish. It has been proved that 10 per cent. are definitely below that standard and at least another 20 per cent. are just off or on it.
We consume only half the milk per head that is consumed in the United States of America, Denmark, Holland, Norway and Switzerland, but if we could raise the consumption to the level at which milk is at present consumed by what is called the good working-class families, and get consumption up from 2¾ pints to 4 pints, we should require an increase of 800,000 cows in this country to meet the demand. There is no surplus. There never has been a surplus, and there cannot be a surplus until every human being in this land gets enough. Manifestly they are not getting enough, and if only we raise the consumption to the level of what the Orr-Lloyd investigators call the best working-class standard, instead of there being a surplus we should require another 800,000 cows to supply the demand. I am not going to say anything that will diminish the demand for milk. Good luck to all the publicity campaigns. The Minister of Health, however, can tell the Minister of Agriculture that milk is the second worst adulterated commodity in the market. It is beaten only by vinegar. The Minister of Health's annual returns show that the proportion of adulterated products in milk is the second largest of any commodity of which he takes cognisance. It is about time that steps were taken to remedy that.
I agree that a Member should not stand at this Box and recite these dolorous facts without putting forward something in the nature of an immediate constructive proposal that can be offered the Minister for his consideration. If it be granted that we could supply the milk and that we under-consume to-day, how are we to remedy it and meet the difference? In the first place, I would draw the right hon. Gentleman's attention to the terrible plight of our hospitals, infirmaries, clinics and Poor Law institutions, and of the anaemic mothers and potential mothers of the working classes. Instead of preventing these people drinking the surplus off the market, obviously the safest and best method is to let them drink it off. We are busily engaged in organising a policy of increasing the cost of milk to voluntary hospitals, infirmaries and clinics. Some of the figures are appalling.
Take the case of the Royal Hospital for Sick Children in Glasgow. I cite it because I know the Minister of Agriculture is aware of the sacrifices made by those who are running that hospital and the great work it has done. Six thousand children go through the hands of the Royal Hospital, two-thirds of them under five years of age. The directors have to go round with their hats begging pennies and shillings in order to keep the institution going. The Government's milk policy raises the cost of milk to these poor sick children in their hour of need by £500 per annum. The cost to the Royal Infirmary goes up by £1,500. The jump in the figure for the hospitals of the Lanarkshire County Council—a distressed area—is £800. The cost of milk to Glasgow Town Council for their hospitals jumps by £12,300. There is something inherently unjust in that. These bodies are large buyers in bulk. There are no bad debts, and usually, where large buyers with no bad debts give you a regular demand, and when in the interest of public health there should be an increased demand, there should be a reduced price, as there would be in any commercial business.
Here, however, we are increasing the price, and increasing it to the poor and needy in the hour of their lives when the Ministry of Health are compelled through one channel or another to pour out public funds in an attempt to undo the mischief that is being done because of this policy of high price milk. I recognise that it is not a practicable proposal at the moment to ask that milk should be supplied free to the hospitals and institutions, but surely in this Measure the right hon. Gentleman can make it imperative that the price to be charged for milk to these institutions shall be the pre-milk Order price. The price should be that at which they were getting milk before these marketing boards started to raise the price.
Would the right hon. Gentleman extend it to other commodities?
I am dealing at the moment with an essential food for sick children and nursing mothers. If the right hon. Gentleman agrees with me in principle on this point, he will receive a hearty welcome on these Benches should he extend the idea to fish and to everything else.
To coal?
Certainly for the poor who need coal. There is no justification whatever for "jumping" the price. It may not be practical policy at the moment to give them free coal—I do not know—but there is no justification for "jumping" the price of absolutely necessary commodities to the poor and needy who require them for their daily sustenance.
I understand that the right hon. Gentleman is not discussing a jump in price to the poor and needy, but whether large institutions should or should not buy more cheaply. There is no suggestion that the poor are deprived of milk in those institutions?
I am afraid that the right hon. Gentleman has not gripped the point yet. Take the local authority of a distressed area, such as Lanarkshire or Glasgow. If you reduced the price of milk to the public medical officer of health in Glasgow, more would be consumed, and he would distribute more. He has said so. The one thing that limits the demand in those areas is price. Cheapen the price and the demand will be increased.
Is the right hon. Gentleman contending that the prescriptions of medical men have not been carried out in the City of Glasgow?
I am not alleging for a moment that there is any medical officer of health not fulfilling his statutory duties. What I am saying is that if you reduce the price of milk to clinics, hospitals and infirmaries they will use more of it. It is so obvious that I cannot understand the right hon. Gentle man trying to cavil at a point like that. We want a new deal so far as these public institutions are concerned. The right hon. Gentleman is spending public money in converting a good food into umbrella handles and into diseased food; he is turning it into tins and trying to sell it abroad in competition with what I take to be an already glutted market. I put to the House that a new vision is wanted. The idea that we are living in a world of abundance is growing. We cannot meet the problems of a world abundance by the old tags borrowed from the years of scarcity. We can no longer set about limiting production and distribution with a glut that will grow every year. Instead of spending public money trying to destroy that glut, by pitching it into the sea, and turning it into dried milk
There is far less being pitched into the sea.
There is some being pitched into the sea, and you are turning it into dried milk and spending public money in doing it. You get the Chancellor of the Exchequer to hand you public money for the purpose of destroying good food at a time when 10 per cent. of your fellow-citizens are unable to get the necessary
The right hon. Gentleman does not contend that dried milk is destroyed? He will not find one medical authority, certainly not Sir John Orr, confirm him in that statement.
Liquid milk fresh from the cow is the best milk, and until every human being gets enough liquid milk there is no case for spending public money in turning it into dried milk for export to Czechoslovakia. Still less is there a case for turning it into umbrella handles. I am not making any personal attack on the Minister. I say frankly that I have never felt that the right hon. Gentleman was pursuing his policy malevolently. I followed him at the Scottish Office and he had left there footfalls and traces of a desire for a wider vision and a greater public policy, and I am only seeking to draw his attention to the fact that he cannot be permitted to continue to destroy food. The world will not let him. New times have come to the earth. If he will, first, decide that the hospitals and infirmaries are to get milk at a reduced price, that will benefit the public health and will save the money we are spending in processing that milk and destroying it. If he will, secondly, extend the school scheme to children who have not reached school age, bringing in the infants, who need the milk even more than the school children, through the medium of clinics and medical officers of health, there will be no opposition from the Milk Marketing Board. I know what I am saying. The chief officers of the Scottish Milk Marketing Board, certainly, would welcome any considered policy which instead of bringing them the public ill will which they are now encountering would bring them good will and enable them to supply this necessary food to those who most need it.
Then there are the depressed areas. We cannot talk about a glut of milk until the distressed areas have adequate supplies. If it is provided for them we shall add two or three inches to the stature of our fellow citizens, according to Sir John Orr's figures, we shall reduce dental caries by 60 per cent., abolish simple anaemia, reduce rheumatism and reduce the diseases of the heart that follow rheumatism. Putting it on the lowest and most miserable basis, we shall save more money at the Ministry of Health than these experiments, if we call them experiments, will cost.
I conclude with this: The farmers want a guaranteed market. They are entitled to a living in return for their labour, and the farm workers also are entitled to share in the prosperity of the industry. A living wage for the producer and a guaranteed market—yes; but there can be no talk of halting production, until all the poor consumers of this country are adequately supplied. I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to lift this industry out of partisan politics altogether, and to take the opportunity open to him now to get a great national policy, backed by all the nutrition experts, by Sir Daniel Hall, Sir John Orr, the British Medical Association and others. He will get support from this side of the House. He can do more for public health, public well-being and the stabilising of agriculture if only he will seize the opportunity which now presents itself, recollecting that we are living in an age of abundance and are entitled to national dividends, and are not in an age of scarcity in which 10 per cent. of the people should be condemned to poverty.
5.20 p.m.
We are discussing to-day, mainly, the renewal of the rather large subsidy—even in these days £2,500,000 is a fairly big sum—which has been granted to prevent the bottom falling out of the factory milk prices and to prevent the liquid milk price being lowered even more than it is, in any case, by being averaged with the factory prices. In leading up to very much the same point as my right hon. Friend the Member for West Stirling (Mr. Johnston) has just made, I will begin by asking, first, what general effect this subsidy is bound to have so far as it affects general milk policy. Of course, even at the price of 5d. or 6d. for factory milk, which is guaranteed, the average price which the producer receives is very heavily affected by the large amount of milk which goes to the factories, but I believe that if this subsidy were not given the summer price actually received for cheese milk would fall below 3d. a gallon and for milk used for butter would be roundabout 4d. Therefore, the subsidy helps to protect the farmer from being brought up too hard against what is the outstanding fact in the milk industry to-day, namely, that the liquid milk market is not greatly expanding and that the factory market is, and that something definite ought to be done about it.
If, as I think, the outstanding problem is to get more milk consumed as liquid milk, the subsidy is clearly helping to cloak the urgency of that problem; and I am sure that even the Minister will agree that if the subsidy were to be given, as conceivably it might be, on any extra gallonage of milk consumed as liquid milk instead of on the gallonage used as factory milk, the policy of those administering these schemes might be rather different I have a few figures which I think are pertinent to show the increase in factory milk compared with milk consumed as liquid milk. We have, I believe, an increase of something like 10,000,000 gallons a month in the quantity of milk coming to be dealt with by the Milk Marketing Board, and I do not think there is any great sign of that increase showing a marked decline. There is certainly a slight increase per cow and an increase of cows, and there is, besides that, a general increase in the contracts coming from districts where milk was formerly used on the farms—I am talking now of the milk which goes to the Milk Marketing Board—and from districts such as the Eastern Counties where farmers have been taking to milk production in the last year or two. Alongside that increase we have the position, as given in the figure supplied by the Parliamentary Secretary in his speech, that whereas it was estimated when this scheme started two years ago that something between 160,000,000 and 180,000,000 gallons would go into the factories, 200,000,000 gallons went to the factories in the first year, and in the last year that figure increased to 252,000,00 gallons.
In an answer from my right hon. Friend this afternoon I received an even more startling figure. If we compare the year ended 3th September, 1934, with the year ended 30th September, 1935, it will be found that the milk consumed as liquid milk has gone up from 634,000,000 gallons to 659,000,000 gallons, that is, by 25,000,000 gallons, which happens to be almost exactly the figure—though the period is not the sarnie—as the consumption of school milk, and that the figure for factory milk has gone up between the same dates from 193,000,000 gallons to 302,000,000, an increase of 109,000,000. Therefore; in spite of, and perhaps masked by, the subsidy, there is a very slight—if any at all—increase in the consumption of liquid milk apart from the milk consumed in schools, but a considerable increase in the milk going into the factories.
The tendency is all wrong, and the question is, What ought to be done to get things on to right lines? The first thing that strikes one is, perhaps, a constitutional point, a real constitutional point: Is it right that the House should go on voting subsidies to boards which are in no way responsible to Parliament, and that these large sums should be spent without any report to Parliament of what happens and without any auditing by the Comptroller and Auditor-General? I am not saying that the money is not honestly spent, but is not the principle that where there is public expenditure there should be some measure of public control still a principle of some value, which ought to be regarded in this House even in these days? These grants are made to Marketing Boards with no duty on their part to report to this House on what happens to that money. Although the Minister is always very good in telling us as much as he can about what these Marketing Boards are doing, he is often driven to say that the Marketing Board are not responsible to him and he is not responsible for what they do. When these Marketing Boards are swallowing up so much of our money the principle of public responsibility ought in some way to be recognised. These Marketing Boards are not simply organisations to secure higher prices for the producers. They do owe some responsibility to the nation.
There is a rather cognate question. The problems before the milk industry and the other industries are extraordinarily difficult and not to be solved in one year or two, but they are also extraordinarily important for the whole future of agriculture and a great many things beyond agriculture, and when we are approached again and again for subsidies the question we are bound to ask is this: Are these organisations so manned as to command among their directors the sort of quality of imaginative brain and ability that bodies doing that very complex and important work require? I fear that even those of us who most keenly believe in the democratic system would find it very difficult to give an affirmative answer to that question.
The Milk Marketing Board is now assessed at something like £40,000,000 worth of milk which, I suppose, makes its operations comparable with those of a great corporation like the Imperial Chemical Industries, yet nobody would suggest that among the directors of the Milk Marketing Board, namely the elected members, you could possibly get, or were getting, the same sort of trained ability and experience as you get in a corporation like the Imperial Chemical Industries. I know that the matter has been discussed by those who are responsible, and that it has been thought over. I hope that before the Debate concludes to-day we shall learn from the Minister whether anything is in his mind, or in the minds of those responsible, touching the points which I am raising about some public control accompanying grants of public money, and whether, and if so in what way, we can get these things thought about in a bigger way and more constructively than is likely among people who are simply elected by the producers and who are bound, in their districts, to have more or less promised to get the best increase of price in those districts, which means that the larger element and forward policy of increasing the amount of milk consumed as liquid milk is bound to go by the board.
That leads us to another question, which is whether the boards about which I am talking, and the Milk Marketing Board particularly which is to get this subsidy, are- so working as to lessen the elements of inefficiency which, unfortunately, mar a great deal of our agriculture. I do not want to go into detail, but I will mention three points as quickly as I possibly can. We have not any organic connection yet between the Milk Board and either the Pigs Board or the Bacon Board, with regard to the return of various residues from milk or whey for pig feeding. That is the basis of the structure of agriculture, I believe, in many foreign countries, such as Denmark, but we have not started it. Is it not time that we did so in some organic way?
Secondly, there is the problem of cream, which is a scandal. The sellers of cream will not establish cream standards, neither will they sell cream at anything like a reasonable margin. As a consequence, they are being superseded in the sale of cream by reconstituted cream, and they will very soon find that both in cafes and in ordinary households when people want cream they will never dream of buying whole cream made in the ordinary way. They will buy a bit of unsalted butter and make it into cream with a little machine. When that happens, and it is happening very rapidly, these people, who have only themselves to blame, will call out for protection against foreign butter, as indeed they are now doing. Then there is the lack of uniformity in administration in the accredited herds scheme between county and county. It surely is not right that it should be possible for a veterinary officer to condemn a cow and turn it out of an accredited herd in one county, and that the cow can be sold into an accredited herd in the next county without any declaration being made that it has been turned out from a herd in another county. These are three elements which one hoped would have been tackled by the Milk Board before now.
Some of us have always thought, and have seen no reason for changing our minds, that if you once began to interfere, as we have done by the Milk Board, it would be an extremely difficult matter to check or stop the spread of the interference. The scheme in the case of the Pigs Board and the Bacon Board is rather likely to break down, because although it covers pigs and bacon it does not touch pork. In regard to milk are we not in a similar position? The Milk Board covers all milk so far as the producer is concerned, but does not in any way extend to the problem of distribution. A dispute has been going on between producers and distributors, and the committee of investigation will soon have to decide whether the margin claimed by the distributors which, I believe, is 11½ whatever happens to the producers, is justified or not. Everybody who knows will agree with me that, even though the margin of the distributors may be declared too much, as I think it is, the amount that can be transferred on any just basis from distributors to consumers is a very limited quantity, and that that is bound to be so as long as the chaos which now exists in distribution is allowed to continue.
One reads for instance of a town—I think somebody has mentioned its name already to-day—Merthyr Tydfil. It is a town of 71,000 people, with 137 milk distributors each handling on an average only 14 gallons of milk a day. If they all have to get a profit, those 137 men— as they have—it is no wonder that the people of that town can only afford something like one-fifth of a pint of milk per head per day. That is rather too big a question to go into to-day, but it is a vital one, and I would very much like to know whether anybody connected with the Ministry is considering it. We cannot be asked to continue indefinitely to pour out our money so as, to some extent, to prevent the chaos and confusion in milk production, while leaving milk distribution entirely unhandled and unattended to. I have mentioned those four problems, and I admit that they are all long-term problems. It would have been unreasonable to expect the Minister or the Milk Marketing Board to have solved them altogether, but they have importance and, as I have indicated, I should like to know before the Debate concludes whether any progress is likely to be made with all or any of them.
I come to a number of considerations touching the short-term policy—what can be done to prevent a steady increase in factory milk with only a very small increase of liquid milk consumption. There are various alternatives. The industry can go on expecting the House of Commons to solve, or at any rate largely to alleviate, its problems for it by continuing or increasing the subsidy. As to that, I can only say that I hope that some day some House of Commons may be willing to draw the line somewhere. You can do what has been rather foreshadowed as being likely to be done, rely upon Protection, but it will have to be Protection particularly against Dominion products. I should like to give a figure, not in the least from the point of view of abstract Free Trade sympathies, but a figure of my own calculation which I think must be correct. If you had a 50 per cent. Protection against all imported milk products, and assuming that that added 50 per cent. to the price, and our products went up by the same amount, you would not be able to increase the full price of milk by more than |d. a gallon all round. There is, therefore, a very definite limit to what can be done by Protection simply as a business proposition.
The producers, while getting retail prices, hope to get more at the expense of the distributors. We shall see what happens, as to that, when the committee of investigation reports, but I believe that the amount which can be transferred to the producing industry, with the prospect before them of a steadily increasing amount of factory milk which they can only get, even under a subsidy, at a low price, and the prospects before the producers, are very limited. There is the possibility, which the Parliamentary Secretary mentioned in another connection of increasing retail milk prices. That would make things worse. It would de- crease consumption and would throw an even greater margin into the factories. It would be suicidal. There is the possibility of decreasing milk supplies by the producers. I believe that that has been very much in the minds of those who are prominently connected with the industry, and that they have had almost to be ready with a scheme under which producers would be allowed a basic quantity, which they were producing on a certain date, and on which they would be paid in liquid milk prices. For any surplus over that quantity they would be paid very much smaller prices, or the factory price, or something of that kind. That can be done, and it may come to that, but I hope it will not. I hope we have not come anywhere near any scheme under which the production of a substance so necessary, so healthy and so excellent as milk would have in any way to be artificially reduced.
There seems to be only one possibility left, and that is to increase the proportion of milk sold as liquid milk. That is the only way to prevent the steadily increasing amount which goes into the factories, and which lowers the price. That involves, of course, facing the adoption of something new in the way of a national food policy. Consider how much attention has been given in recent months to that matter. I hope that we may hear that something of that kind, if it is not to be introduced soon, is likely to be tackled long before the 18 months are over for which we are being asked to renew this subsidy. It is extraordinary that we have nut heard anything about it. The way to it has been shown in the schools scheme. But that is not nearly enough. It is not enough from the producers' point of view, nor from the public point of view. From the producers point of view, as we have learned from the very interesting figures given to us by the Parliamentary Secretary, even if all children had milk instead of about one-half of them, it would increase consumption by only 25,000,000 gallons, and that is only one-tenth of the amount which, in the figure given for the latest available year, is going into milk factories.
From the point of view of the public, getting 100 per cent. instead of 50 per cent. would not be nearly enough, even with the extension of the scheme to the hospitals or to expectant and nursing mothers. It would not be enough to touch upon the social effect of what we ought to do. Very interesting figures were given by the right hon. Gentleman who preceded me. I am sure that he will agree that the figure which I shall give the Committee is as interesting as any of his. In two examinations, one made in a part of South Wales and the other in a part of Northumberland, it was found that it took 25 members of an ordinary unemployed working-class person's household to consume a pint of milk a day— 25 people to a pint; that is how 04 of a pint per head per day works out. When we remember and realise how very easily a pint, it may be of milk, it may be of some fluid with more froth to it, is transferred by ourselves from an external to an internal position once or twice a day, and sometimes more, and when one has to think of 25 people being needed to unite to consume a pint of milk per day, it seems to me that it is a sort of thing that one would rather not think about.
I do not want to weary or bore the House with a statement of the wonderful work that Sir John Orr has been doing, but I say that by this time we ought to have started thinking on constructive lines. I see the Noble Lord the Minister for Thought on the Front Bench; I hope that he will think about the matters which my right hon. Friend brought before the House, and that we shall get a move on. I believe it would pay the farmer to supply milk to a largely increased number of people in an increased number of districts at something between the present factory price and the present liquid milk price, as is done in the case of the school milk, when allowance is made for bottling and, so on. We ought to organise a supply of that milk, at, say, 3d. a quart, which is about half the present price, in all districts where there is severe unemployment. In that connection it is worth remarking that, if we could get an average extra consumption of a pint per head per week, it would solve all the problems of the milk producer for a long time to come. We are asked this evening to vote a lot of money, and I believe that all of us would feel a great deal happier about the voting of that money if we were sure that with it, not only in the school scheme but in a very much wider way, we were buying health and a better physique and stamina for our people. I suppose I have been to some extent critical, but I think that those who have been kind enough to listen to me will realise that in my criticisms I have tried to be constructive. Our votes on this matter must depend on the extent to which the constructive points I have ventured to suggest are dealt with by the Minister before the Debate closes.
5.49 p.m.
I intervene in this Debate with the same kind of diffidence with which an Englishman would intervene in a Debate on Scottish affairs, but I think the fact that this Financial Resolution continues the provision of milk for children in schools makes it a subject that very intimately concerns Members from the towns. The right hon. Gentleman who spoke for the Labour Opposition put some challenging questions and gave some very impressive statistics. I would ask him to believe that questions of this kind are not confined to the benches on which his party sits; they are questions that have been asked in all parts of the House, and the figures that he gave are figures that must impress and disturb us all. I think, however, that we on this side of the House have a right to say that at any rate this Government is the first that has made some approach to the problem of glut. I can well understand the reasons that have given rise to this subsidy. I can understand that it would be impossible for the butter and cheese factories to exist without a subsidy, and obviously, if other industries are to be protected, agriculture cannot be left alone in a cold world. But the question I have been asking myself during this Debate, and I am sure a great many other Members on this side of the House have been asking the same question, is, why should not the subsidy be extended to other classes of the community whose needs are at any rate as urgent?
We have heard a great deal this afternoon of the Milk-in-Schools scheme, and it is very satisfactory to hear that 2,500,000 children are receiving cheap milk. That must be a powerful element in making the children disease-resisting and in increasing their strength and vitality. The Parliamentary Secretary said that he regarded this Debate as being a bridge between his late office at the Board of Education and his new office at the Ministry of Agriculture, but I think that what we are asking him to do this afternoon is to strengthen the girders of that bridge. Why should not milk be made available to a much larger number than the 2,500,000 children who are now receiving it, and at cheaper prices? I understand that the factories receive milk at 4½d. per gallon; it is retailed to the children, even at the special rate under the scheme, at 1s. per gallon. Why should the necessitous children have to pay nearly three times as much for their milk as the necessitous industry; and why should not these milk services in the schools be expanded? They are a step in the right direction, but they are only a comparatively small step. Only half the present school population is affected, and only to the extent of a third of a pint of milk per day, and even then, I think, not at the week-ends or in times of holidays. Why should not the amount of milk be increased and the period in which it is available for consumption be extended? It is now given to children between the ages of 5 and 14; why should it not be given to children under the age of five, and also to nursing mothers?
The argument has been used, and naturally it is a very formidable one, that that would mean a great deal of expense, and obviously such an extension could not be made immediately, but surely, as the right hon. Gentleman who spoke from the Labour benches suggested, it might at least be extended to the special areas. There is some dispute as to what these areas should be called—whether they should be called special areas, or depressed areas, or necessitous areas; but I wonder whether the best term would not be experimental areas, and whether the Government could not use them as an opportunity, at any rate, for a vital social experiment of this kind, making them really a laboratory of social research? I think these questions need an answer, particularly in view of the investigation which is now being conducted by the League of Nations into the whole problem of nutrition. I was present when that committee was set up, and I particularly rejoiced that its two sponsors were Australia and Great Britain. It opens out the first real opportunity of tackling a problem which I suppose, next to the issue of peace and war, is the most formidable problem that civilisation has to face—the paradox of scarcity in the midst of plenty.
Sir John Orr has been quoted very much this afternoon, but one particularly impressive statement that he made recently was his statement that 4,500,000 people in this country spend on an average only 4s. a week on food. That is a very distressing figure, and it is understandable that the party opposite should frequently quote statements of that kind and claim that they are an indictment of the capitalist organisation of society. To say that we have a higher standard of living than any country in the world, that our social services are the finest in the world, and that our unemployed are better off than in any other country in the world, is only a partial answer. It does not satisfy those who have little share in this country's wealth, and are living in some cases below the margin of decent nutrition. Though they may see the sunshine, too often it is shining on the other side of the street. The British Empire has led the way in pressing upon the League the urgency of a general raising of the standard of living. This subsidy is for 18 months. Is the speech of the Parliamentary Secretary this afternoon the last word we are going to hear on the subject of increasing the standard of living? He said that there was in this scheme the germ of far-reaching development. When is that far-reaching development going to begin? Let us back up the words of our spokesmen at Geneva by intensified action here in the House of Commons on the lines started in this Milk-in-Schools scheme.
I may be wrong, but I have the impression that on this subject the Government are timid and hesitant. I cannot see that they have anything to fear from bold action. The only factor that can break this great National Government is the continued existence, with nothing done to alleviate it, of over-production and under-consumption, of abundance and under-nourishment. These are the searching questions that the right hon. Gentleman who spoke from the Labour benches asked this afternoon, and that is the great thesis that my distinguished colleague in the representation of Bristol is continually putting before the country. We can only meet him and beat him if we can show that it has an ever-decreasing basis in actuality. If the Government tackle this problem boldly, they will not lack the support of the British people. More than that, I believe profoundly that, if the British Government and the British Empire can give an example to the world of how better to distribute on a more equitable basis the essentials of existence, they will have made a real contribution to the maintenance of peace; for it is indisputable that hunger for food is at least as potent a cause of war as hunger for territory.
5.59 p.m.
This is the second time that we have been asked to vote a very considerable sum of money to help the milk industry of this country, and I think it is pertinent that we should inquire how that money is being spent, and whether it is bringing in the returns and the results that were anticipated from it. I hope and trust that, before the time limit of this subsidy expires, some more permanent scheme will have been introduced and carried into effect by the Government, and that we shall not be asked again to vote a temporary subsidy for this particular aspect of the agricultural industry. I represent a district of Wiltshire in which the milk industry plays a very important part, and I should like to make a few observations as to how the scheme has affected producers in my area. The milk produced in my area has been particularly assisted, more than in certain other areas because a very large proportion of it under existing conditions goes for manufacturing purposes. Therefore the amount that the farmers receive has come from other areas where most of the milk goes to liquid consumption. The objects for which the Milk Board came into being were three in number. They were to bring an element of stability and order into the industry; secondly, there was to be an endeavour made to get purer milk produced, and thirdly, there was to be an attempt to get more milk drunk, and as a corollary to that, if you are going to get more milk drunk you must sell it at a cheaper rate than at present.
How have these objects been fulfilled? On the whole, I think the board has worked extremely well. It has reorganised the milk industry in certain ways. This has meant sacrifices and concessions by individuals concerned. Without a shadow of doubt the scheme has saved hundreds, if not thousands, of milk producers from bankruptcy. When we consider the size of the industry—170,000 producers—I think we shall admit the sufficiency of the machinery that the board has created. If you wish to judge its success, it is worth mentioning that in the last year 18,000 new producers have come on the roll, which shows, perhaps, that the milk industry is really not such a bad one as is sometimes supposed. I do not pretend that all the milk producers in my area are satisfied. A satisfied farmer is a rarity in any part of England. If farmers are satisfied, you never hear anything about it. But to say that the scheme is by any means perfect or complete would indeed be to mislead the Committee, and the right hon. Gentleman who spoke from the Liberal Benches has outlined a number of problems which still face the board— questions to which we hope to get some answer from the Government.
I have always felt it very hard to face this position. You have, particularly in rural areas, a retail producer willing to sell to his neighbour, who may live within a few hundred yards, at considerably less cost than he is obliged to pay. You have families anxious to buy the milk, and they would buy it in increasing quantities if only they could buy it at the price at which the producer wishes to sell. I have found great difficulty, although I am a supporter of the scheme, in explaining, both to the producer and the consumer, why under these conditions it is necessary, for the benefit of the milk industry as a whole, to maintain the price at the level at which it stands. I admit that in country districts something has already been done to lower the price to those who live close to milk-producing areas, but I trust that the Government will urge the Milk Board to do something more. There cannot be a more difficult case to answer than that in which the producer and the consumer are side by side and the producer wishes to sell and the consumer desires to buy but, owing to existing conditions, the consumer is restricted in buying the very commodity which we are all united in thinking he ought to buy and consume in increasing quantities.
The second object was to get better milk produced. I think the answer to that is that the accredited producers, those who get the additional penny for the improved quality of their milk, have risen from 800 to over 13,000. Twenty-five per cent. of the milk produced to-day comes from accredited producers. Again there is the point, which I hope the Government will look into, that there are in different counties different regulations under which milk has to be produced, and it seems to me that the Milk Board and the Government should make a combined effort to synchronise the conditions which may lead at present to a particular cow being condemned in one county passing over the boundary a few yards away and there, because the conditions are different, being able to take its part in the herd and produce milk without any obstruction from the local authority. The third and last object was to get more milk produced. That must mean in the long run getting more milk produced and consumed at a cheaper price than is the case at present. We are doing it to a certain extent by the subsidy to-day, but I hope to-morrow we shall be able to do it, not necessarily by the subsidy alone, but by the better organisation of the industry both as to production and distribution.
We have heard a great deal about distribution to school children and it has been universally endorsed by members in every part of the House. I trust that, instead of somewhere in the neighbourhood of 50 per cent. of children getting cheap milk, before the extension of the subsidy is over that percentage may be very largely increased. I wonder whether it is not possible for the same facilities to be afforded to other institutions, such as hospitals and maternity centres. Even under the financial regulations today, I believe it would be possible to make grants to those institutions. The only question is whether there is enough money available. The hon. Member who spoke last desired the extension of cheap milk to whole sections of the community, and he was heartily applauded, but surely one must ask where the money is coming from to pay the difference between what it would cost to produce it and the price at which you could sell it. Until a permanent scheme can be put into operation a subsidy such as this is the only means, but I hope that the better organisation which has come about already, and which will, I believe, continue under the direction of the Milk Board, will mean that you will not only get a fair price for the producer but you will also be able to get the milk for the consumer at a cheaper rate than he pays to-day.
After all, the field for the increased consumption of milk is vast among every section. We consume half as much per head of the population as they do in countries so far apart as Sweden and the United States. It does not, therefore, need much vision to see what a vast field is open for both increased production and consumption here. I have drunk milk several times in both those countries and you find that the milk presented to you there, and also in Finland, is in such an attractive form, so cool and clean, that I believe that even those who, unlike me, are habituated to stronger beverages would be strongly tempted to fall if only the milk was offered to them under such attractive conditions.
My last observation is as to what the position of the Government should be and has been in regard to the industry. Of course, having offered the subsidy, the Government should have a certain amount of control. It seems to me that the scheme as it is proposed to-day is largely a producers' scheme, and it is right that it should be so. The Government's function, as I see it, whether in milk or in other agricultural commodities, should be to pass the legislation that is necessary to put the scheme into operation, to give it the subsidy that is necessary to launch it and, last but by no means least, to look after the point of view of the consumer. It may well be that later, when the industry is organised, the milk producers may come to the Government and ask, and only then will they have the right to ask, for some further control over milk imports.
We are going through an experimental stage. I think that is both a right and a necessary stage. It is obvious that until the Government produce and carry into execution their beef and meat scheme we shall never be able to put the milk scheme on a permanent footing. We all know many farmers who have in the past year or two turned over from grazing to milking simply because the small man cannot afford to tie up his money in fat stock and wait on the chance that the price may be increased and he may be able to make a profit in seven, eight or nine months. What he likes is to get a cheque regularly every month, as he does under the milk scheme. Consequently, until we get some more permanent solution of the beef and meat aspect of the industry, I quite realise that we cannot expect a more permanent solution. On the other hand, it is only fair to say that, representing a milk area, I welcome the scheme and I congratulate both the Ministry and the board on the manner in which they have so far carried it out, but I hope they will not regard what must be purely a temporary expedient as a permanent solution of this most important aspect of agriculture.
6.15 p.m.
I regret that in this Debate, as in a large number of Debates in this House, the Scottish Office is not represented on the Front Bench and that the Minister only looked in for a brief period to hear the opening speech, and then, in his usual way, departed and left the House untenanted as far as the Scottish Office is concerned. That is a regrettable thing, and I ask that the Scottish Office be requested by the Whips to see that during the course of this Debate they are represented in the House. While they are bringing him out, I would also say that the right hon. Member for Ross and Cromarty (Mr. M. MacDonald) might also have been here, because during the recent by-elections in that area, marketing and milk schemes formed a large proportion of the debatable subjects on the platform. He could have given us his advice on the questions and difficulties that arose and the agitation he encountered both from the farmers and consumers in Ross and Cromarty. Many pledges were made, and the right hon. Gentleman might have begun by honouring them on his first day at least.
I gathered from the remarks of the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Chippenham (Captain Cazalet) that the scheme was not one to fatten the children but the farmers of this country, and that the real basis of the inauguration of the scheme was that the farmers were having a lean time and that, in order to fatten the farmers, it was necessary to fatten children as an incident in the process.
That is the sort of idea the hon. Member would have.
That is why I am on this bench.
That is why the hon. Member is not on this bench.
Heaven knows that if I had to sacrifice every principle I have to get on that bench, I would rather stay off, and, I might add, the right hon. Gentleman was nearly kept off it also in Kelvingrove.
At any rate I was not kept off.
I noticed, incidentally, that the farmers of the country considered making the right hon. Gentleman a present on his marriage, and I can quite well imagine why the farmers conceived that he was a very desirable person to have on that bench, but he has become so impertinent. I am sorry that the Debate has tended to be taken away from its reasonable tone by the angry interruptions of the right hon. Gentleman. He is rather angry at the remarks which I have made concerning the lean time that the farmers are having. We were told by the hon. Gentleman, whose remarks I wish to criticise—and the right hon. Gentleman was not present when they were made—that in a large number of cases the farmers of this country had been saved from bankruptcy by the application of this scheme. He said that they were pleased with their monthly cheque which was now assured under this scheme. They were not entirely satisfied, which, I believe, is typical of the farmers' attitude to the problems of all schemes, but he hoped that there would be some improvement and an extension in the interests of the farmers in the industry, and last, but not least, in the interests of the producers.
It showed that, in his estimation, the farming community were of more consequence in the eyes of the representatives of the National Government than the children, whom they seek to use in this House as an excuse for paying lavish sums of money to the farmers of the country. "We are told that the scheme has been applied to a large number of children. When large numbers of children secure milk or any addition to their diet, I certainly would be the last to disagree with such a policy, even if it were carried out by a National Government, because the action and recommendations of governments are of more importance than promises and pledges made during election times. During the period when this decaying system is passing through a process of further decay, we welcome anything which will tend to improve the health of the children in this community as being essential for their well-being.
I observe that in connection with the scheme in certain Scottish areas such as Glasgow and Lanarkshire there has been a drop, to quote the Minister, from 64,000 to 44,000, in the number of children being supplied in the schools, but he did not give us a complete analysis of the reasons for the reduction, and why these children have ceased to be included in the arrangements for school feeding. As a father as well as a public representative and an agitator, I am interested in the welfare of child life. I have a boy of seven years of age. He is included in the scheme, and one morning, when given his money to take to school, said, "Dadda, can you tell me who gives this milk?" I said that it was given by the farmers, the Government and the taxpayers. He then asked, "Why should they not give us sweets?" and I replied, "Because the confectionery industry has not applied for a subsidy yet." Before he gets much older no doubt the right hon. Gentleman will come along with a huge subsidy for the confectionery industry, as they will no doubt be lining up in the queue. Anyhow, the beet sugar industry is subsidised at the present time.
Certain faults in the application of the milk scheme have been pointed out. The hon. Gentleman who presented the case referred to the question of sickness among children who had had this milk. The two most serious illnesses which my boy has had have been due to drinking this milk during a very cold period, when, I am informed, the milk had actually formed into ice blocks on the top of the bottle, and he received a severe chill. I have received numerous complaints of the same character, that the milk is given to children so cold that it puts the stomach out of order. I suppose the right hon. Gentleman will have some means of combating and dealing with that matter, and I have mentioned it because it was referred to by the hon. Gentleman. I should like to see the milk scheme made applicable to every child in the community. Some people say that giving milk to children between the hours of 9 and 12 or 12.30 puts the children off their mid-day meal, but, on the other hand, it must be remembered children very often go to school in the morning after having got up very late and not perhaps having had much of a breakfast. If such children received milk during the forenoon, it would prove to be very useful from the health point of view.
Parents in the distressed areas, the poverty-stricken masses of the community, the unemployed and low wage labourers have not sufficient money with which to purchase goods at the ordinary prices and are compelled to come for this kind of assistance for their children. We welcome a subsidy in order to assist the children at the schools. I should be the last person to say that the scheme was not a useful one. I only wish for its extension. Figures were quoted by the right hon. Member for West Stirling (Mr. Johnston) as to the opinion of the medical authorities with regard to the health of the children. On Friday last we had a discussion in this House on the Defence Forces of the country, and there was talk of the co-ordination of three forces, the Army, the Navy and the Air Force, for the purposes of effective defence. There is another defence that we should co-ordinate. We should coordinate the Ministry of Health, the Ministry of Labour and the Ministry of Agriculture for the defence of the children of the nation in order to give them good health. In order to do this they should be charged with the duty of seeing that the defence of the lifeblood of the children was carried out effectively without question of cost, as being even more necessary than the defence of capitalist private interests where the destruction of human life is concerned.
Time and again I go to institutions in and around Glasgow where I see the problems and suffering of child life. I go into tubercular homes and see the children. I frequently go to one of the institutions near Glasgow on the road to Kilmarnock and I ask many of the boys where they come from. I would point out to the right hon. Gentleman who represents Kel-vingrove, that a greater proportion of the boys in those institutions come from the divisions represented by my hon. Friend and colleague the Member for Camlachie (Mr. Stephen) and my hon. Friend and colleague the Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) than from any other part of the City of Glasgow. I have never discovered children of people living in Kelvinside or Park Ward or out in the Pollock Division. They are children of the working classes and come from the slum areas. I watched a boy one day lying in a crib out in the open air, with his spine bared and turned to the air and sun. I asked the doctor how long it would be before a cure of the boy could be effected and he said that probably it would be at least from two to three years before he could dream of a cure, and that the boy would require to be kept in that position. I asked him for his opinion as to the reasons for the development of this scourge, and he said, not as a politician, but as a medical man, "McGovern, there is only one great disease and that is the disease of poverty; and most of the other diseases spring from poverty and are a consequence of it." I have seen children there, when oxygen has been pumped into their lungs, black in the face. They are there because of the inability and unwillingness of Governmental authorities and powers, locally and nationally, to deal with these scourges at their very inception. Two shillings a week is given with which to feed, clothe and house the children of the unemployed who come under the scheme.
I must remind the hon. Gentleman that we are now discussing milk.
Yes, that is what I am discussing. I am using the instance to illustrate the necessity of extending the milk scheme so as to include all the children who are potential victims of the various scourges that may ensue from these diseases. We give to the child who goes into the milk scheme 2s. a week. We destroy the human frame by refusing to grant the essentials of life to this child on a free basis from its infancy. Then after the child's frame has been destroyed, we spend £3 10s. a week in an institution trying to bring back health to the frame we have destroyed. It is not only a tragedy; it is inhumanity and lunacy from a business point of view to carry on in that way. I ask the Minister to consider the extension of this scheme. I do not want to criticise too freely every person in this House, but a speech was made by the right hon. Member for West Stirlingshire. He said that it would take 5s. 10½d. a week to feed a child, according to the British Medical Association, and that any child who was not receiving food up to that amount was being destroyed. I agree with that statement, but these remarks and speeches from many Members leave me cold when I know that such schemes were never inaugurated and attempted by them when they had Governmental power.
In Glasgow we are told that there will be more spent on milk if the price is lower. I agree. If you reduce the price of any commodity you are bound thereby to give the community an opportunity to purchase more. The Parliamentary Secretary attempted to take advantage by suggesting that the Medical Officer of Health for Glasgow was not carrying out his duty to the patients in institutions and that the authority responsible was a Labour authority, who were not carrying out their duty and were not entitled to criticise the Ministry. That is a perfectly logical line. We do know that the Labour authority in Glasgow falls far short of what many would wish a Labour authority to be. They simply say in local government affairs what the hon. Member has said here to day.
I think that we had better leave the proceedings of the Glasgow Town Council alone on this occasion.
This point has been raised in the Debate and permitted by the Chairman, and I think that as the right hon. Gentleman the Minister will be entitled to reply later we are entitled to reply at the same time. I do not intend to delay the Committee with the point, but was simply saying that the local authority used the same argument. They say "Look what it is going to cost." The Parliamentary Secretary says" Look what it is going to cost the taxpayer"; they say "Look what it is going to cost the ratepayer." I hope that the Minister, when he replies, will give a statement as to his plans for dealing with the children of this nation who are not yet in the scheme. We hope that all children will come into the scheme. I would like to see the scheme so expanded that complete provision will be made for every child whose father is on a low-wage standard. We must not Only see that the scheme is extended but that, we have a clean milk supply. Not only do we want to see the children given added strength, height and weight, but we must see that we do not pour into the body of the child further disease from cattle that may be infected. We have under a cooperative scheme in Glasgow one of the finest milk supplies in this country. It is looked after in every way and is one in which you can have the greatest confidence. We want to see all necessitous children given an adequate supply of milk in the forenoon and the afternoon in order to build up their strength and power of resistence. We want to see these three arms, the Ministries of Health, Agriculture and Labour, a coordinated force, with research and dictatorial powers to see that the children of this nation are given effective health and strength.
6.38 p.m.
I must, in the first place, congratulate my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary on the ingratiating manner in which he performed a difficult task. On one or two points I should like to break a lance with him this afternoon. The main problem with which the Milk Reorganisation Commission had to deal was the fact that, owing to improved methods of transport, milk could be brought from one end of the country to the other, from Scotland to Bournemouth and from Bournemouth to Scotland. It was easy for the distributor or wholesale buyer to set farmer against farmer, and this depressed the price of milk. I think that the milk marketing scheme has been successful in dealing with this problem. If the scheme is to be judged by its success in dealing with the problem of manufacturing milk, it has been a complete failure. It has aggravated that problem. But it has dealt with the problem in the liquid milk market, and I think that all those who had any responsibility for bringing the scheme into existence can claim credit for it on that score.
I said that the original marketing scheme was not intended to deal with the problem of manufacturing milk. It of course dealt with it in one or two ways. It dealt with it in the matter of duties, as far as duties can affect it at all, and I do not believe that that is in any large measure. It suggested also the adoption of a sliding scale for different categories of manufacturing milk, and that, I think, has been successful. But the marketing scheme, by giving security to milk producers, has undoubtedly aggravated the problem of the surplus and the problem of manufacturing milk. Every increase of production while things are organised as at present is simply an aggravation of the problem caused by manufacturing milk. I regret very much that the Government has had to come to the House and ask for a continuation of this subsidy. I can quite understand the necessity and I shall certainly support the Government in the Lobby, but I do so rather reluctantly, not only because subsidies of this kind are not agreeable things—they are tinkering with a great subject—but because this particular subsidy is actually aggravating the trouble with which we have to deal. I ventured to predict when this subsidy was first introduced that it would lead to a great increase in the amount of milk which would go into manufacture, and figures which the Parliamentary Secretary has given prove that to be the case.
There will never be any solution of this milk problem if we confine ourselves to attempts to tinker with the manufacturing price. The manufacturing price is, comparatively speaking, a side issue. What matters is the price of liquid milk. That is the thing that has to be tackled, and while the Government come forward with any other proposals they are really postponing the issue. What is going to put the milk industry on a stable foundation? Here I think there is no difference between those who approach the problem from the point of view of consumers of the product and those who are producers. There must be prosperous farming in this country in order that there may be plentiful milk and cheap milk. These needs are complementary, and not in opposition, and I do not think it helps to suggest that there is any opposition. What we have to do is to increase the consumption of liquid milk. That is the root of the whole problem. The only way of increasing consumption on a large scale is by lowering the price, and you can only lower the price by tackling the problem of distribution. The original Milk Commission dealt pretty fully with that, and it was not possible in the circumstances to adopt its recom- mendation. But this marketing scheme can only be a one-sided, imperfect and inadequate scheme as long as it neglects the problem of distribution. Therefore, I hope that in the first place the new Commission will deal with the problem and that the Government afterwards will deal with it on their report. The Government can, of course, help. I sympathise with what has been said by Members of the Opposition on the immense importance of milk to families, particularly to the poorer families of the country. It is a most essential food, and we want to get it into every home. The Government can help a great deal by getting milk to the institutions, but it is far more difficult for the Government to get milk into the home. It leads to problems of the greatest complexity.
I think that the Government can extend the measures for giving free or cheap milk to institutions and, incidentally, let me say that the Parliamentary Secretary is taking undue credit to the Government for the school milk scheme. It took some of us quite a long time to press it on the late Government. I led one or two deputations to the Government, and we were not received with enthusiasm in the first instance. Many of us can claim more credit for the scheme than hon. Members now sitting on the Treasury Bench. At any rate, that is a matter of history and the schemes are now in operation. I should like to see them extended. I hope that the Government will go a long way further and make it possible for free milk to be given in schools and in welfare centres. I insist, however, that that is not going to provide any real solution. Some people have assumed that if the Government give milk away it will solve the problem from the point of view of the nation, and also of the industry. That is not true. You must have cheaper milk so that people can buy it for themselves in much larger quantities. In my constituency the price of milk seriously affects consumption. In winter, when the price goes up from 6d. to 7d., a great many homes simply take six quarts instead of seven, which means that the children are short of a quart of milk per week. When the price goes down they take seven quarts instead of six. There is no doubt that by reducing the price you will greatly increase consumption. Therefore, I hope that the Government will not delay in facing the problem of distribution. It must be tackled by the Government. As the chairman of the original commission I say that in this matter you can secure the support of the great distributors, which is fundamental to the problem. Therefore, I make no apology for referring to it this afternoon.
6.50 p.m.
I am glad that the Minister of Agriculture is present, because I consider him to be one of the successes of the Government, and one of the ways in which he has been successful —whether it is his Scottish ancestry or his Nonconformist ancestry I do not know —is the way in which he is able to give the impression that the National Government are burning with zeal for the children of the poor and for the poor generally, while we on this side of the House are merely cogs and spokes in the wheel. In this particular case the Parliamentary Secretary, speaking from the brief supplied him by the Ministry, did not quite create the marvellous atmosphere which the Minister generally creates. He made it clear that the policy of the Government was that the price structure should not be destroyed. Parliamentary Secretaries and Under-Secretaries are sometimes very useful people to the Opposition, largely because they have to speak to their brief, and thus occasionally let out what is really in the Government's mind. The Parliamentary Secretary said that because the price of milk was the basis of the scheme, members of the Labour party were opposed to it. It is no use throwing sneers at us from public platforms and saying that we are opposing cheap milk for children in the schools.
What is his excuse for not giving cheaper milk, for not increasing the amount of free milk to children? It is all a question of the price structure. The Parliamentary Secretary gave us a figure showing that the consumption of milk had increased from 10,000,000 gallons a year to 900,000 school children under the penny per third of a pint scheme to 23,000,000 gallons. I really think that people who are responsible for this should not throw cheap sneers about slimming as the Parliamentary Secretary did, in the case of older girls. In Jarrow and in areas like Sunderland and Wallsend the percentage of children in the younger ages is much higher than the percentage of older children between 11 and 14 years of age. In these areas mothers have large families to keep on entirely inadequate money. If there are five children at school, five halfpennies per day means 2½d. a day, and although it may mean nothing to hon. Members of this House, 1s. 3d. a week means a great deal to the mother of that family. What does the mother do when she is faced with such a position? If she cannot afford to purchase milk, she sees to it that the younger children get the milk, and as they grow older they have in their turn to do without it. The Parliamentary Secretary says that the older girls do not get the milk because they are slimming.
The figures I gave the hon. Member were based on inquiries by the London County Council in connection with the decline in the consumption of milk in schools, and one of the reasons given by a head teacher was the reason I gave to the House: that some of the older girls did not get milk because they were slimming.
The hon. Member gives us facts of that kind, but he does not give us any foundation for them. It may be that the headmaster or headmistress who said this was dealing with children who get sufficient food at home. The Parliamentary Secretary should see some of the thin slips, the undernourished children, in the areas of the north. It is really very serious that the Minister should quote such a passage. It will be reproduced in every newspaper, and when we raise the question of milk for the older children we shall be told that the Parliamentary Secretary said that they were not having milk because they were slimming. He does not say a word about mothers who cannot afford to buy milk for their children. He gave us a number of figures, but he did not attempt to draw the moral. He pointed out that in certain areas the percentage was higher than in others. He pointed out that in Hull the percentage of those who receive milk is 60, and in Grimsby 25. May I tell him that the administration of the means test is much more sympathetic in Hull than in Grimsby? And other areas which he quoted also come under the means test.
This is rather a sore point because inspectors have been going round taking a census of those who get cheap milk and cheap meals in schools and then threaten the mothers that when their case comes up for revision, that amount will be deducted from them. That is not an idle threat. It has been done in case after case, and these poor women are simply terrified. These mothers have to decide whether they can afford to pay 1s. 3d. for their milk or have 6d. deducted from their benefit under the means test. It is a serious matter for these poor folk. If the Government in putting forward this scheme were less concerned about the price paid to the farmers and more concerned about the amount of milk to be consumed in the schools, we should have the amount of free milk increased enormously, particularly where there are more than one or two children.
I want to put a question to the Minister. We have been given the sum of £750,000 which it is said is necessary for cleaning the herds. I should like to ask whether that is a yearly amount or a lump sum?—
A lump sum.
If it is a lump sum, to be spread over four years, I suggest that it is nothing like enough. A recent census of milk taken in recent times has shown a very disquieting increase in the percentage of tuberculous milk, and if there is therefore a question of cleaning the herds, the sum is inadequate. Until comparatively recently I think it is true that the percentage of tubercular cattle in this country is one of the highest in the world and, therefore, £750,000 is not enough to deal with that problem. I should also like to ask him whether his Department is keeping in touch with the experiments of Dr. Spahlinger, who has been the victim of a most unscrupulous press campaign in regard to bovine vaccine, which he claims would, if put on a proper basis, rid this country of bovine tuberculosis in a comparatively short time. I understand that in the North of Ireland there has been a searching test of this method recently, and if it is true that it has proved of great value, then I would urge the Minister that it is not sufficient merely to kill cattle which are in a highly advanced stage of tuberculosis. I suggest that while a great deal has been done towards cleaning the cattle sheds and in other ways, that the inoculation of cattle against tuberculosis will be much cheaper, and that the saving of child life in this country would be enormous.
It has been said by medical authorities that practically every case of glandular tuberculosis in children comes from bovine infection. It is not the working class that are wholly concerned. There are members of this House who bear the scars of operations in infancy for bovine tuberculosis. It seems to me that one of the most important things any Government can do is to rid the country of this scourge, and I would ask the Minister to give us some assurance in this matter. No one has done more than the Minister to rouse the conscience of the country on this question of clean milk, and I want to say this to him. Here we are dealing with a very specialised industry, something which has caused him a great deal of criticism from his own side, but which is easily controlled. We are always asking a man to do more. This is a matter vital to the public health, and with something which is not so much concerned with producers' profits as with the middle-man's profits. The right hon. Member for Hillsborough (Mr. Alexander) has made an offer on behalf of the Co-operative Society to take less money. He has shown from the figures which he put before the Milk Investigation Committee the enormous profits that are being made.
We cannot at this stage go back to the pre-War position of guaranteeing a profit to the least efficient producer or distributor. The matter has been made easier for the Minister because of the centralisation that has taken place in the industry. Cannot we have it said in this House that here is something that shall be taken out of the sphere where private profit is the main consideration? We ought to have a nationalised milk supply, and nobody knows it better than the Minister. Nobody could make a more impassioned speech on this subject than the Minister could if he were where he ought to be, and that is over here. If he feels he can do more in the camp of the Philistines, let us at least ask him to carry further these experiments so that not only the children but the mothers and the young people shall have cheap fresh milk. I suggest that as the Minister of War will before long be presenting Estimates for largely increased expenditure on armaments, there might as well be healthy people to wield those armaments, and that it would probably be better to spend more money on milk and less on battleships.
7.5 p.m.
This Debate, like that on the Education Bill last week, has shown that the Measure brought forward by the Government pleases nobody, not even their own supporters. I have not heard one speech that really showed satisfaction with the Bill. The reason, I think, is obvious. We have heard a good deal of interesting detail, and I would like to say in as broad outline as I can what I think is the reason. If we considered the questions: What are the Government aiming at; what have they effected, in what direction are they moving? —we should understand why the Committee is disappointed with this scheme. I have not forgotten that this is a temporary Measure, and the continuation of a Measure passed two years ago. I think that is why we are disappointed, because even then we pleaded for more help for the children. Knowing how much the Minister's heart is in this question of improved health for the community, as well as improved conditions for agriculture, we hoped that when the experimental period was over we should see some big advance.
What do we see in this Financial Resolution? The Parliamentary Secretary, in his opening speech, explained the permanent aim of this Measure. He said that we all realised that the permanent thing to aim at was increased consumption of liquid milk. If that be the aim, what has this Measure done? As several hon. Members have pointed out, it has done nothing practically to increase the consumption of liquid milk beyond what has been done in the schools. The consumption of milk has increased by just about the same amount as the amount given to school children. The Government are doing something substantial towards giving a push to the process of putting more milk into cans and turning more milk into products that could just as well be produced abroad. This temporary Measure will prove to have given a permanent impetus towards turning the stream of liquid milk into the factories, where it is made into cheese, or canned, or made into umbrella handles.
We all know what happens when the Government give a subsidy, said to be temporary and experimental, to an industry. We have seen it in connection with beet sugar. Practically every expert has agreed that that industry is unsound and uneconomic, yet we were told that that subsidy could not be stopped because it would throw many people out of employment. Obviously in the milk industry vested interests will grow up, every kind of labour will be called into existence, and when this temporary measure expires we shall be told that we cannot turn back because it would lead to increased unemployment. Yet is there a Member who doubts that fundamentally it is unsound in an industry like this to encourage these milk products which could so well be brought from other countries, much more broadly agricultural than this where the actual production of milk is far under the real needs of the country?
I am reminded of Lewis Carroll's "Alice in the Looking Glass," in which hon. Members will remember that if you want to go to a place you walk away from it. That is what this is going to-do. It wants to encourage the production of liquid milk, and it spends £2,500,000 to encourage the production of solidified milk, and creates industries and interests which will make it very difficult to turn the current back again. Why is only a paltry £500,000 to be spent in encouraging the consumption of liquid milk? I listened to the reason with great curiosity and amazement, but perhaps I should not have been amazed because I have heard the reason before. It was the reason given by the Minister two years ago, and it seems to me the most curious reason I have ever heard. The argument is that you are already-spending £500,000 on school children and that the effect of that is to supply less than half the school children with less than one-third of a pint on school days only; the argument for not increasing that amount is that you cannot increase it enough to absorb the whole surplus. That is a very strange reason.
Why not spend as much as you can on what we are all agreed is the main object of increasing the consumption of liquid milk? Spend as much as you can on the school children and similar methods of liquid consumption, and if there is a gap left fill that up by encouraging non-liquid products. At present in the counties providing milk for school children there is consumed about 23,000,000 gallons a year. If we gave the same rations on the same days to all school children, it is estimated that the consumption would amount to 44,000,000 gallons. If you took the weekdays when schools do not meet as well, the consumption would rise to 69,000,000 gallons. Then there is the question how much the consumption would be if the scheme were extended to nursing mothers and children under school age. As there are about 3,000,000, I suppose the consumption would be an additional 25,000,000 or 30,000,000 gallons.
All these are possibilities for increasing the consumption of liquid milk. Then there is the possibility of a subsidised supply to hospitals and other institutions. I can understand that some of these would be complicated schemes that would take some working out. I realise that not every child in the country likes, or would be willing to take, milk if it were given free. What we miss is not so much a complete and perfect scheme—for that we do not expect—but any sign of an inclination to extend a very imperfect scheme in the way which might reasonably be expected. Interesting figures were given by the Parliamentary Secretary about the percentage of departments in different counties which use the milk scheme. He said that he gave those figures in case some of the hon. Members present in this not very fully attended Committee might be able to bring influence to bear upon the school authorities in their constituencies. But why apply to the comparatively few private Members in this Committee? Why not apply to the President of the Board of Education?
I am sorry that the President of the Board of Education has not been here during the whole of this Debate because it seems to me that it is a Debate at which he or his representative should be present. I suggest that the Minister of Agriculture ought to talk very seriously to his colleague and ask him whether he cannot use something more than influence, his actual authority, to see that every school authority administers the milk scheme, and, if he has not the authority, let him ask the House of Commons for it. It is not a question of forcing the milk down the throats of reluctant children but of making it possible for every child who wants milk to get it. If the Government are to do that, then, I think it would be better if the milk were free and not merely cheap.
It is remarkable how opinion on this subject has grown. At first it was looked upon as heretical and as wild-cat extravagance to suggest that milk should be supplied free, but opinion in favour of it has spread. The "Times" is not generally looked upon as an organ of full-blooded Socialism but only last Thursday the "Times" had a leader urging the necessity of increasing the supply of liquid milk and suggesting that one way in which it could be done was by supplying milk to all school children free, and also by extending the supply to nursing mothers and children under school age. Medical opinion is demanding measures, if not of the particular kind I have indicated, yet of some substantial kind for increasing the consumption of milk.
Let me sum up the position. On what road have the Government entered in this matter? There is no symptom in this Measure that they are walking ahead on any road. They are simply marking time. They are awaiting a permanent scheme of reorganisation. Why has that scheme been delayed so long? Two years have passed since this experimental scheme started. What has happened to the Reorganisation Commission of which the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Altrincham (Sir E. Grigg) was originally chairman? What has happened to the proposals brought forward by him? When is this perfect scheme of reorganisation to be produced? One thing is certain. Every year's delay in which we go on pouring more milk into the factories and doing as little for the children as we are doing to-day will make it harder to carry out a really satisfactory scheme of reorganisation because we shall have to deal with all these flourishing vested interests that we are encouraging at present.
I wish the Government could be persuaded to cut down the sum which they propose to spend on manufactured milk. That sum is not mentioned in the Resolution but, according to the memorandum circulated last week, it is £2,500,000. Why not cut it down to £500,000 and add the other £2,000,000 to the money which is being spent on increasing consumption? I do not forget that the one sum is repayable under certain conditions by the industry whereas in the case of the school milk the sum involved is not so repayable. But we do not know what prospect there is of that money being repaid, and even if it were true that a big scheme of encouraging the consumption of liquid milk by supplying it to school children and in other ways would cost more than the expenditure on manufactured milk, yet it would be sounder and more economic in the end, because it would lead us on to the right road and would bring greater health and vitality to the working-class community instead of encouraging the growth of unwholesome and unnecessary vested interests.
7.22 p.m.
Enough has been said to-day to show that there is considerable dissatisfaction with the way in which it is proposed to spend this money for the assistance of the milk industry. That dissatisfaction has been expressed not from one quarter but from all quarters. For some years past agriculture has been in the habit of dipping its hands into the public purse, and that tendency has not been confined to this country but has been a world-wide phenomenon. I am not going to say that under prevailing conditions it is not necessary to give some form of temporary assistance to the dairy industry in order to help it out of its present position. But the point about which all Members of this Committee are concerned is whether the method proposed is the right method or not. I feel strongly that the method we are pursuing is not the right one.
What the dairy industry has to face is the fact that there is a surplus of milk which cannot be marketed in liquid form, without assistance. Therefore, we are concerned to know whether this money is being spent so as to assist the consumption of milk in the most socially useful manner. I am convinced that that is not the case. We have in the neighbourhood of 250,000,000 gallons of milk surplus to liquid consumption—that is, a quarter of the total production—and the State is paying £1,000,000 in order to enable that surplus to be consumed in some form. My right hon. Friend the Member for West Stirling (Mr. Johnston) has shown that the subsidy, which was intended to increase consumption, has gone in such a way as to enable manu- facturers of dairy produce, in some cases, to export their produce. I have figures here which confirm that view. The Milk Marketing Board last year advanced £61,902 in respect of 19,000,000 gallons of milk to be converted into milk powders and of that quantity, 5,364 cwts., the equivalent of 421,000 gallons, was exported with the assistance of the subsidy for the continuance of which we are now asked to vote. We are enabling foreigners to get these milk powders cheaply with the assistance of our taxpayer. Therefore we have every reason to be dissatisfied with what is going on at present.
I know from experience that, before the operation of the milk scheme, owing to the big surpluses in certain parts of the country, farmers were compelled to use up milk by mixing it with cement for the purpose of preserving the roofs of barns—a new method. Reference has already been made to the manufacture of umbrellas. That is another method of using it to which some producers were forced by the existence of the surplus. We all know the enormous value of milk as an article of human consumption. The Minister in an interjection earlier asked whether it was contended that to convert milk into manufactured produce was to destroy its value as a food. I say not entirely but to a great extent. It may be true that the manufactured milk product contains the same amount of albuminoids, carbo-hydrates and phosphates as the liquid, but it does not contain the vitamins and the Minister knows that vitamins are the most important element in milk. I know that there is a division in the medical profession on the matter and that there are some who go so far as to say that they would sooner see milk being consumed, even if it were not free from the possibility of tuberculosis germs, provided it contained the vitamins which strengthen the body to resist germs. It is not a good argument to say that we are not destroying an important and valuable element in the milk when we convert it into manufactured dairy products.
The report of the League of Nations Commission of experts on diet has shown the importance of milk. They mention the amount of one pint of milk per day as a desirable and proper quantity for consumption by adult and child alike. If our adult and child population consumed one pint per head per day, there would be no surplus. On the contrary, we should have to increase our output by 50 per cent. and our cow population by nearly 2,000,000. What prevents an extended consumption? It is the high price and the fact that 10 per cent. of the population are unable to spend more than 4s. per head per week on food. To consume a pint of milk per day would mean to such people the spending of one-quarter of all that they have to spend on food on milk alone, and it is obviously impossible for them to do it. Many of my hon. Friends have complained, with reason, that the milk marketing scheme, in some of its operations, has brought about an increase in the retail price which is 5d. per quart or 6d. per quart according to the season. Before the scheme it was 4d. per quart. The operations of the Milk Marketing Board have resulted in the transference of any increase in price from the producer direct to the consumer. The result has been that consumption has decreased proportionately.
I suggest that there are two lines of attack in this matter. The first is to take steps to lower retail prices. In order to do that, inquiries must be made into the whole question of distribution costs. No doubt the Minister will say in reply that that is a matter with which he cannot deal owing to there being a commission of investigation conducted by the Milk Marketing Board, and rising out of the dispute concerning contract prices last autumn. But very important evidence has already been submitted in that commission and that evidence gives us a line of approach to this very important problem. If there is to be an increase in the consumption of liquid milk, the retail prices must be lowered and steps must be taken to ensure that any improvement in the prices paid to the producer does not immediately cause an increase in the prices paid by the consumer.
We must inquire into the amount of the distributors' margins. Personally, after the evidence which has been produced in the commission, I am not at all satisfied that the distributors' margins are reasonable. In the commission the chairman of the United Dairies openly stated that he considered 11½d. per gallon to be a reasonable margin for his firm to obtain from the handling and distribution of milk. It has already come to light in the commission that in some cases the whole of the costs of handling general groceries distributed together with milk by big firms are charged to the milk account and not spread over the groceries. If that be true, and if it be proved by subsequent evidence, I think we shall have a good opportunity to take up this question and to bring the big distributors under some form of public control. We on these benches would like to see the milk distributing industry nationalised, but at least there ought to be some public utility corporation operataing under public Statute.
I know it is often said that the producer—the farmer—is a great grumbler, but it cannot be said that great profits can be made out of the dairy industry. It is true that a good many farmers have gone into the dairy farming, but that is largely because worse conditions prevail in some of the other branches of agriculture. Information concerning the costs of milk production published by the Oxford Agricultural Research Institute, and extending over a number of farms, shows that the average cost of milk production is a little over 1s. a gallon. Again, the Bristol University Agricultural and Economic Research Department showed that the average winter cost is 113d. and the average throughout the year about 10d., whereas the average price of milk in the mid-Western area, round about Bristol, is in the neighbourhood of 9d. or 9½d. a gallon, so that there is a very strong argument for reducing the retail prices if wholesale prices are so low. I do not think there there should be any increase in the wholesale price of milk because, at least as long as distribution remains as it is, that increase will be transferred to the consumer. The important thing to be done is to decrease this big margin between the wholesale and the retail prices, and then it will be possible to do something towards bringing milk to many of those who are not now getting it.
The second line of attack is to assist the consumption of liquid milk with the aid of State funds. In that lies our complaint to-night; we say it is not being done in the proper manner. The hon. and gallant Gentleman referred to this question as being a far distant proposition and something which we might hope to attain in several years' time. That does not satisfy hon. Members on these benches. The hon. and gallant Gentleman went on to say that if we were to interfere too much with the consumption of milk by assisting it with State subsidies, it might be that the price structure would be shaken. I should have no objection to shaking that price structure at the present time; indeed, I think it is the very thing which ought to be done in order to increase consumption.
Much has been said about milk for children in schools and I wish to reiterate the necessity for an extension of that scheme. We ought to make it possible for children to have more than a third of a pint a day if they so desire, and we ought to give encouragement in that direction. Moreover, although I know this is a matter more for the local authorities than for the Ministry, there ought to be opportunities for milk to be warmed in order to deal with the digestive disturbances arising from the drinking of cold milk, to which reference has been made in this Debate.
Then there is the very important question of the cleaning up of the dairy herds. The hon. Member for Jarrow (Miss Wilkinson) spoke of the Spahlinger tuberculin injections. Personally, I think the Government is following the right course in developing the accredited milk scheme. I would sooner see our herds cleaned up by that method—and it is quite possible to do it—than by injecting vaccines into our cattle for the purpose of keeping them healthy. I do not say that the Spahlinger method has not some value, but I think the other method is surer in the end, although it may be slower. When I was in the United States 18 months ago I saw large areas in which the cows were free of tuberculosis. The United States are far ahead of this country on that question, and I think they have followed the right lines.
There is one other point which I would like to emphasise. Free milk, or cheap milk at a price somewhere between the manufacturing and the liquid milk prices, ought to be made available to hospitals and Poor Law institutions, I believe such a scheme would very largely pay for itself. I know hon. Members may say that such a scheme would require large sums from the Treasury, but I believe the Milk Marketing Board would give a con- siderable amount of assistance, since a scheme of that kind would mean that milk which is now being converted into cheese and butter at 5d. a gallon would be sold at 7d.-8d. a gallon, and a portion of that increase could no doubt go into the pool, thereby reducing the amount of the Government subsidy to some extent. In any case, I am sure that proportionately per gallon more money would be saved by the State in that way than would be saved by simply giving money for the purpose of bolstering up the price of manufacturing milk with a view to the making of cheese and butter and goods for export.
Furthermore, I see no reason why there should not be allowed a rebate on milk delivered to all persons, employed and unemployed, who are in possession of national health cards. If there were two children in the family, that family would be allowed two pints of milk at a cheaper rate on condition that the normal amount for the adult members of the family was bought, so that there would be no possibility of a family getting cheap milk for the children and then dividing it up among the adults. I think that method might be adopted, and I believe the Milk Marketing Board would be prepared to assist. The burden on the State would not be as great as some hon. Members may think.
All the things to which I have referred call for vision and must be looked at from a long-range point of view. The other day the Noble Lady the Member for the Sutton Division of Plymouth (Viscountess Astor), who is not in her place, said that she wanted to see the Government have vision in their educational policy. I want to see the Minister of Agriculture have vision as well. If he has vision, he will not again come before this Committee with a request by the Government for State money to subsidise the manufacture of milk products, some of them for export, but will use the milk to maintain the health and the wealth of the masses of the people of this country.
7.44 p.m.
The first thing which has come out very clearly in the Debate is that there is a unanimous opinion that this House wants an increased consumption of milk. The second thing is that hardly any voices have been raised in defence of that part of the Resolution which deals with the subsidy to cheese-making. I think there are a few other objections to this subsidy to the manufacturing side of the Milk Marketing Board's activities which have not been brought before the Committee to-day. One of those objections is that the subsidy brings us directly into competition with our Dominions. Butter and cheese are the natural dairy products of New Zealand and Canada, which supply us with the larger part of the cheese and a very considerable part of the butter consumed in this country. I think it is undesirable that the country should subsidise these particular products. It will not make it more easy for the Minister of Agriculture to negotiate agreements by which the imports of dairy products are admitted.
There is another reason why the subsidy for that purpose is particularly undesirable. Several hon. Members have suggested that in granting subsidies Parliament should have a greater control over their use, and I submit that there is here an opportunity of gaining some control over the use to which this £2,000,000 or £2,500,000 is put by the Milk Marketing Board, and that this money should be used to encourage increased consumption instead of to encourage the manufacture of milk. The Parliamentary Secretary put forward the specious argument that if this money were applied, not to the manufacturing side, but to the encouragement of liquid milk consumption, especially in schools, you would not have met the problem of the 250,000,000 gallons which have to be made into cheese and butter, but I suggest that you are not solving the problem by granting a subsidy of 1d. or l½d. for a gallon of milk, because even to-day the board have a difficulty in getting a price for their cheese which is in fact better than the price for New Zealand cheese.
Naturally.
I do not know why it should be natural that British cheese is not as good as New Zealand cheese.
I never said that. I said that owing to the various agreements which are tying the hands of Ministers, it has been impossible for the National Government to regulate things on the basis that they have repeatedly declared they wished to do, namely, on the basis of a state of affairs where the home producer can have first place in the home market.
I regret that I have completely failed to make the point which I was trying to present. The point was that a large part of the cheese manufactured in this country does not at present equal in value the cheese imported from New Zealand, which is, I believe, a fact, and it shows that we are trying to enter a market in which the New Zealanders already have goodwill established over a long period and which they are fitted to supply, and which we are not specially fitted to supply. But my main point is that to give an extra penny of subsidy to bring the price of milk up to 5d. in the summer and 6d. in the winter, for manufacturing into cheese, does not necessarily help the farmer any more than to give a subsidy for some other purpose. What matters to the farmer is that he gets the £2,000,000 into the pool which has to be distributed, and that £2,000,000 could be directed by this Committee to be used in such a way as to increase the consumption of milk, on the one assumption, which is an important one, that you will create a new demand in some places for milk. If it only goes to subsidise the consumers' purchases on the present level, you will not have assisted the farmer. The argument is this, that if, for instance, that half of the school children who are not getting milk at the present time could be given milk under this scheme, you would have created a new outlet for milk, and instead of selling it at its cheese value, plus the subsidy, you would be getting new money into your pool, and the farmer would be definitely better off, and so would the children who are not now getting milk.
A great deal has been said about the school milk scheme, and I do not wish to touch upon that question, but the Parliamentary Secretary did state, in opening the Debate, that the only real and permanent solution of the milk problem was to increase consumption, and I do ask whether it is possible, under this Resolution in its present form, for the Government, within the next 18 months, to do anything with this money to increase consumption. Though we hear a great deal about the very valuable work that Sir John Orr and others are doing, it- seems to me that under the form in which this Resolution appears we as a Committee are committed to granting the subsidy, not for any other means of increasing consumption, but for encouraging the manufacture of cheese. I very much regret that. If we are going not merely to utter general platitudes about wanting to see more milk drunk, but to get down to the problem of how to increase the consumption of milk, we must study the problem of what consumption is.
One fact which has been brought out by an investigation into the consumption of milk in Nottingham is that it decreases with the increase in the size of the family, and that is true both of dried milk, to which some hon. Members take exception, and of liquid milk or, as it is sometimes called, wet milk. Both wet and dried milk are consumed in smaller quantities in families with large numbers of children than in those families where there are few children, and that is a very serious consideration. There are very great differences in the incidence of the consumption of milk in this country. Whereas in middle-class families, again in Nottingham, 14d. per head was spent per week on milk, in unemployed families only 5d. per head per week was spent on milk. This is not a strictly comparable quotation, but at Newcastle, as revealed by inquiries there, the consumption per head per week was as little as one-third of a pint per week, whereas the normal consumption is roughly one-third of a pint per day, and I believe there are great areas throughout the north, in the depressed areas, for instance, where the consumption per head per week, not per day, is only equal to half a pint.
I ask the Minister whether something definite cannot be done to meet this problem. The only way that I can see is either to have differential prices for different classes—and I believe a policy of that sort would be welcomed by the Milk Board—or differential prices for different districts. I would at least like to see a really vigorous experiment carried out in some town where unemployment is, say, 50 per cent. of the population, first of all to find out what they are consuming at present, and then to place that milk at their disposal at about half the price which they must pay for it now, in order to find out what the consumption would be. That seems to me to be a valuable purpose to which the country's money could be put. We require collaboration, not only between the President of the Board of Education and the Minister of Agriculture in this matter, but with the Minister of Labour as well, because it is not only children but their mothers who are suffering, and perhaps suffering more. It is not only pregnant mothers, but mothers who have several children and who are very keen, as they are in the north of England, that their children should get their proper food.
Cannot some system be arranged by which the Ministry of Labour would sell, if you like, to applicants a ticket which would entitle them to milk at a reduced price? I know it will be said that that milk will find itself actually in the general consumption, but I believe that it is possible to overcome some of those administrative difficulties. At any rate, at the present time nothing is being done, as far as we are aware, to look into that problem, and if the Parliamentary Secretary is right in saying that the only permanent solution is to increase consumption, and if the Government are really interested in a permanent solution of the problem, I suggest that it is time the hon. Gentleman did look into it.
There is just one other suggestion of a practical sort for increasing milk consumption. I have myself delivered stacks of crates, not only to schools, but to factory gates. Are the Government prepared to subsidise milk going not only to the schools, but to factories as well? Miners in some districts drink very considerable quantities of milk, and factory workers do the same, and it will have the same economic result to the farmer whether you subsidise cheese or liquid milk, provided you can find a new outlet, a new market, for that milk. The factory where workers drink their milk either at mid-day or in the middle of the morning is a new outlet, and that would help to give the increased consumption for which this Committee seems to be unanimous in asking.
7.57 p.m.
I think most of us admired very much the ingenuity with which the Parliamentary Secretary introduced this Financial Resolution to-day. I presume that he came down to the House with a view to getting an extension of the millions that have been poured into agriculture, but very little, as it happens, was said by him about that question. He spent most of his time apparently in regretting the fact that he had left the Board of Education for the Ministry of Agriculture, and he gave us an interesting and, I must admit, a detailed account of what has been done to increase the consumption of milk among the children of this country. His proposals were divided into three parts. He spoke a great deal about the necessity for underpinning this industry of agriculture, particularly the dairying part of it. I would like to suggest to the hon. Gentleman that in some cases it appears to me he has not merely underpinned the industry, as he calls it, but has to a very considerable extent undermined it, too.
There is, I believe, a way of underpinning which is known as grouting, and that consists very largely, as I understand it, of pumping liquid cement into a building that you are attempting to underpin. This is a favourite work apparently of the Minister of Agriculture and his Department. They are always coming into this House and asking us to pour a great deal of liquid money into this particular industry. He did not give us any details, as far as I can find, to show how the industry had been helped by this system which he called the system of underpinning. The subsequent speeches to-day show clearly that hon. Members are by no means satisfied with this system of keeping from the public, speaking generally, the liquid milk which they so much desire and which we all desire that they should be consuming, and converting it into manufactured products of which, from what I hear, a considerable proportion is sent out of the country. I do not think that this is the intention of the Committee because we are all agreed that increased consumption is the one remedy for the difficulties in milk marketing. I do not see that the process of manufacture which is encouraged by this system of underpinning is really doing very much to increase the consumption of milk.
The Parliamentary Secretary referred to the second part of the grant, and said it was needed for cleaning up the milk supply. We agree that this is a most important part of the work of the Ministry. The other day I was told by an official of one of the most successful orthopaedic hospitals that 50 per cent. of the cases of tuberculosis among children with which they had to deal in this interesting and successful hospital could be clearly traced to bovine tuberculosis. It is obvious that there is a good deal of work to be done in that direction, and I agree with the hon. Lady who suggested that £750,000 distributed over a period of four years is certainly not enough to clean up the milk supply. I would like to ask the Minister what has been done, for example, on the ordinary farms to clean up the milk supply. I know that some improvement has been made by people who can well afford it and that more graded and tested milk is being produced than ever before. Speaking generally, however, in the country district which I know—and the hon. and learned Member for Mont-gomeryshire (Mr. C. Davies) will bear me out—absolutely nothing has been done to improve the quality of the milk. The old byres are as filthy as ever they were, the system of feeding is as unscientific as ever, and the processes of milking and of churning the milk into butter and cheese are as filthy in many cases and as inadequate as ever they were. I come from a district which is, to a certain extent, dairying, and I find that the conditions under which butter is produced are absolutely unworthy. I should like to see the Minister really trying to do something in order to encourage the general production of clean milk under more hygienic conditions.
The most alarming part of the speech of the Parliamentary Secretary was that which referred to the fact that the consumption of milk among school children in the rural areas was so inadequate. He gave some figures which showed that in Cardiganshire, a typically agricultural county, only 30 per cent. of the children have availed themselves of the opportunity of getting milk in schools. In Montgomeryshire there were only 36 per cent., and in Pembrokeshire only 40 per cent. This is a serious question. It has been suggested before that the scarcest commodity on the countryside in Wales is milk. I believe that there is a verse about muzzling the ox that treadeth the corn. It is the fact that it is almost impossible for the agricultural labourer in Wales to get milk for himself or his family. I must blame the Milk Board very largely for this condition of things. I know a considerable school in Mont- gomeryshire where it has been impossible to get any milk for the children, and they are put off with some inferior substitute. Since the Milk Marketing Board came into operation the milk from that district and the whole of the county has been taken away to the big towns such as Liverpool. Big lorries scour the countryside and take every spot of milk away.
I know of a case of a small farmer who had one cow, and out of kindness he used to let two of his poor neighbours have half a pint of milk a day. He got a letter from the right hon. Gentleman's Department saying that, in view of this, he would have to pay 10s. a year in respect of this venerable cow. Like a wise man, he decided that he would not pay, and the result is that his neighbours find it impossible to get any new milk, although they live in a district where a great deal of milk is produced. As a matter of fact, in the rural parts of Wales the right hon. Gentleman has organised the milk industry out of existence, and I should like to know whether he has some plan in mind whereby these people can get a better supply. You cannot possibly get tested milk in the rural areas. I believe that there is no tested milk within 20 miles of our neighbourhood. It is impossible in the country to get fine grades of milk and very nearly impossible to get any milk at all. I suggest that some provision should be made through the Minister of Health so that the district councils could provide the milk that is the greatest luxury possible in the places where it is produced.
It has been said to-night that this very big industry ought not to be viewed merely from the point of view of the producer. The House has considerable sympathy, which it has shown on more than one occasion, with the producers of milk and other agricultural products, but we on these benches feel that if these big industries are to be organised, they ought to be organised from the point of view of the community generally. The producer is an important element in the community, but there is the consumer also to be considered. Our difficulty is to correlate production to consumption. It is the universal problem of industry, and I suggest to the Minister that we can never solve it until we do something with the question of distribution. Distribution is the channel from the producer to the consumer, and to deal with the producer or the consumer only is fallacious. I wish that the Minister had the courage and the vision—as, indeed, I believe he has—to take the wide view of this industry and to determine, having started to organise production, to go on and organise distribution and consumption as well.
8.10 p.m.
I believe that this Debate has come at an awkward moment for the Minister. In the first place, he has promised us his long-term policy, which, I believe, for milk will have the levy subsidy as the core and centre. Many of us, particularly on these benches, will be interested in what the Minister will say about the levy subsidy. This is the wrong time to discuss it, but I daresay that at some future time we shall be able to discuss its merits and demerits. Then an inquiry is being held which must obviously tie the Minister's hands regarding many of the criticisms which have been made about the Milk Marketing Board. I desire at once to join issue with the right hon. Baronet the Member for North Cornwall (Sir F. Acland) on the question of the personnel of the directorate of the Milk Marketing Board. I regret that the right hon. Gentleman is not here. I was sorry to hear him say that in his opinion the directorate of the board is not equal in strength and capacity to that, say, of Imperial Chemical Industries. I daresay that the right hon. Gentleman had been in contact with the directorate of the Milk Marketing Board before making a statement such as that. I submit that the directorate of the board is in every way a capable one made up of men who have proved from their past experience that they are sound men of business. I venture to mention the case of the vice-chairman, who is a working farmer and a man who has had years of experience of the milk question. I am certain that the right hon. Gentleman could not have known that the Milk Marketing Board practically started from one room with one man, and that in a very few months it built up an enormous organisation which possesses now the accounts of over 168,000 farmers and about 63,000 other accounts with purchasers. That is something of which the board can be proud.
This afternoon I tried to induce the Minister to show something of his national spirit when I asked him if he would be kind enough to tell the House what plans he had to help the poor Welsh farmer. He would help considerably to solve the problem of the Milk Marketing Board if he were to help the Welsh farmer as regards store cattle, because many hundreds of farmers have gone into milk because store cattle to-day are at such a ridiculously low price. I represent Carmarthenshire, and from the town of Carmarthen alone thousands of gallons of milk are sent to London every day. When one considers that the value of milk sold off farms is £47,500,000 a year it needs no words of mine to show that the milk question is an important one to the whole country, and it is especially important for the county which I have the honour to represent. There is no one in any part of the House who does not suggest that something ought to be done for the milk industry, and the only question is whether this £2,500,000 will be spent in the proper manner.
Let us take the position of a farmer who has in his hand his contract with the Milk Marketing Board. On the back of the contract is the figure of 1s. 5d. per gallon. That is what he would receive if the whole of his milk were sold as liquid milk, but instead of getting 1s. 5d. he is told he receives somewhere about 1s. or 1s. 1d. per gallon as a pool price. In the "Home Farmer" for December the price for manufacturing milk is quoted at 6d. What happens is this: A levy is made on the liquid milk price in order to make up for the price of the manufacturing milk of 6d. or thereabouts, and the result is a pool price of about 1s. Then a further deduction of about 2½d. is made for transport costs, so that what is left for the farmer to put into his pocket represents about 9d. to 9½d. a gallon for his milk, and that is why the farmer usually complains and grouses. It is interesting to note that in the month of December, while 45,000,000 gallons were consumed as liquid milk, 20,000,000 gallons were sold for manufacturing purposes. There we find the reason for this Money Resolution, and, indeed, the reason for the long-term policy which we hope to get soon from the Government.
Seeing that in one month 20,000,000 gallons of milk are sold at 6d. a gallon, that is, less than a 1d, a pint, one is forced to ask whether it is not possible to use this money to extend the scheme of milk supplies in schools. I suggest that milk should be given free to all pupils attending elementary schools, and I am supported in my opinion by a very excellent letter which appeared in the "Times" last week, written by a schoolmaster, a man who has obviously had experience of this milk in schools scheme. He wrote:
I would ask the Minister in his reply to deal with the experiment which he carried out in Merthyr Tydfil. No one in South Wales can understand why that experiment to provide the unemployed with cheap milk failed in Merthyr Tydfil, where unemployment is anything up to 80 per cent. Was it the fault of the people who tried the experiment, or the fault of the unemployed? Had there been sufficient preparation before the experiment was started? Further, will the Minister agree that this experiment should be tried again at the first opportunity? I have mentioned Merthyr Tydfil, but it would be of vital importance to the farmers of Carmarthen if some such experiment in the provision of cheap milk foir the unemployed were successful.
I agree with what has been said about the distributor getting more than his fair share. That is the view of 100 per cent. of the farmers who produce the milk. On that point there is no division of opinon among them. They see that they are the people who carry the greatest responsibility, and that they get a sum of about 9½d. No distributor pretends that he can distribute that milk for 9½d. The figure that has been given is 11½d. I cannot see why the farmer should be fobbed off with 9½d. when he bears the burden of the work of producing the milk, and has to run all the risks in the production of it. The distributor, who runs a comparatively small risk, does so for 11½d. May I suggest to the Minister that in order to be fair to the home producer he should see that no milk products are sold in this country which are not produced in their country of origin under precisely the same conditions as those upon which he insists— and insists quite rightly—in regard to the home product. It is unfair competition for the home farmer to be told that he must spend money on the herd—quite rightly—and upon cow-sheds, if the product which he has to face in competition comes from countries where, there are either no standards of cleanliness or standards inferior to our own. I hope that when the Minister of Agriculture makes agreements with foreign countries he will not forget the home farmer.
If a balance is to be adjusted, it should be adjusted at the expense of the nation as a whole and not, as many of us think, at the expense of the agriculturists, who form but 7 per cent. of the population. It is for this reason that I hope that the Minister will press forward with doing all that he can, not so much to increase the manufacturing price, because he is tied absolutely about that. The manufacturing price which is paid depends upon the price, which he cannot alter, of best New Zealand and best Canadian cheese, less, of course, l¾d. It is on the price that is left that the manufacturing price is fixed. The very best way in which the Minister could help the farmer would be to stimulate in every way an increase in the consumption of liquid milk.
8.29 p.m.
I rise to support the plea that was put forward by my right hon. Friend the Member for West Stirling (Mr. Johnston), and to stress especially the plea with regard to the sale of milk to hospitals. A few days ago I was in conversation with a representative of the Hospitals Association in London, and I gathered that, as a result of demands which have been made from time to time by hospitals in this country, the association made representations 12 or 15 months ago to the Milk Marketing Board asking for something to be done to decrease the price of milk supplied to hospitals. Three deputations have been to the Milk Marketing Board, and up to now the association have not had any reasonable response. The last rely which was given stated that the responsibility rested with the Minister of Agriculture. The letter from the Milk Marketing Board is dated 2nd June, 1934, and stated: tions they have had from the Milk Marketing Board, whether there have been any representations at all and whether the Ministry were aware of the deputations that had been before the Milk Marketing Board and, if so, whether any attention has been given to any requests that have been made by the Milk Marketing Board. In the area from which I come, which is a special area, one hospital is paying £100 per annum extra for milk. That sum may not seem very much, on the face of it, but £100 per year in a special area, or in any other area, is an unreasonable figure. I hope the Ministry will say what they are prepared to do to meet the call which is being made by the hospitals for milk to be supplied at a cheaper price than that at which it is being supplied to-day.
I support also the plea which was made by my right hon. Friend in regard to the supply of milk to children of from two to five years of age. Hon. Members who come from a special area recognise to the full that in those depressed districts it is the mother who suffers in almost every case, because she wants to give her children or her babies the best that they can have. If the best is good enough for some citizens, we ought to strive to give the best to those who are more unfortunately placed than ourselves, and there is nothing that should stand in the way of everything possible being done to see that the children have the best possible milk supply. It is not a matter of the quantity of milk. In the district of Aspatria, in my constituency, hundreds of pounds worth of milk is being sold to the factory at 4½d. or 5d. per quart, as the case may be, while a few miles away hospitals are paying the full price. There is something radically wrong with a system which permits of milk being sent for factory purposes while hospitals are not in a position to pay the price which is being demanded under the Milk Marketing Act. I ask that the Minister should give some indication as to whether he is prepared to give, or has considered the giving of, some easement to hospitals which are affected in this way. This is a general demand from hospitals all over the country, and it ought to be met without delay. I have risen to ask these questions of the Minister in the hope that he will give a favourable reply.
I should not have intervened but for the reference that was made to my county by the hon. Member for Wrexham (Mr. Richards). He was quite right in making it, because he and I are both natives of the county which I have the honour to represent. I desire to join with him in calling attention to the conditions generally in these rural districts. He is quite right in saying that there is maldistribution of milk in a locality where the distribution ought to be easy and perfect. Those who are nearest to the place where the milk is produced very often suffer because the milk is taken away to far-off districts, under the scheme which has been rightly put forward by the Minister and which undoubtedly has done a great deal to save the farming industry of this country. I hope the Ministry will consider how better they can develop this scheme so that the distribution may be more even and the people who are actually producing the milk may not be penalised.
The hon. Member for Wrexham also referred to the conditions under which the milk is produced. It is sometimes produced under conditions which ought not to exist, and I hope that the Ministry will take this matter in hand. My hon. Friend is quite right in calling attention to the old-fashioned byres, the dirt that is there, the conditions under which the cows are milked, and the conditions under which the milk is treated afterwards. We should like to see such conditions ended. I hope the Ministry will realise that the farmers are doing their best in very difficult circumstances. The countryside has been denuded of capital, and buildings which are in a bad state cannot be put right without more expenditure of capital in improving the structure, the water supply, and the conditions generally. That brings me to the question of the condition of the milk itself, not merely as regards contamination, but as regards the danger of tuberculosis.
I should like the Minister or the Parliamentary Secretary, whichever of them replies, to tell the Committee what the Ministry are doing in regard to the purity of the milk for which they are now asking for this extra subsidy. I know that the Ministry of Agriculture has been engaged for some time in experiments regarding the prevention and cure of tuberculosis in cattle. A similar inquiry has been conducted by the Government of Northern Ireland, at very great expense and, I understand, to their own satisfaction, into the system known as the Spahlinger system, and I understand that the Government of Northern Ireland are now proposing to introduce legislation in that regard. What system is right I do not know, but I am certain that money spent on experiments to prevent tuberculosis is not only money well spent, but is essential expenditure. At the present moment the Ministry of Agriculture are expending some hundreds of thousands of pounds for compensation for the destruction of cattle suffering from tuberculosis, and surely it is right that they should spend more money in experiments directed to the prevention of the existence of tuberculosis. There is a real danger, at the moment when we are encouraging the consumption of milk in schools, that that milk may be contaminated. The milk that is to be provided in schools should be pure and free from tubercule or any other contamination; it should be the very best that can be supplied. Otherwise, more harm than good will be done. In this country every year we spend millions on hospitals and on all kinds of medical treatment, which could very well be rendered unnecessary if the children were properly looked after and fed and were given the pure milk that they should have.
The hon. and learned Gentleman has said that hundreds of thousands of pounds are spent by the Department in compensation for cattle suffering from tuberculosis. I would like to know where that money is spent, and where the people are who received the compensation.
I have not the figures here, but I am certain that that was the statement of the Minister of Agriculture himself with regard to compensation for the destruction of cattle suffering from tuberculosis. However, no doubt the Minister will deal with that point. It may be that my figure is exaggerated, but that was certainly what I had in mind, and it was given to me by the Minister himself. I join with the hon. Member for Carmarthen (Mr. Hopkin) in asking that the Government should supply milk free to the schools. I think it is an essential part of the duty of the Government to attend primarily to the health of the children, and, if they can, as I know they can, be supplied with pure milk free, we shall look for a healthier and a better nation in the future.
8.43 p.m.
There is one point on which I should like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary a question. In the course of his speech he gave some interesting figures with regard to the quantity of milk consumed in schools in various parts of the country, and the difference in percentage as between towns of similar population was rather staggering to me. He indicated that an inquiry is to take place as to why the consumption of milk by school children is declining in certain areas, and he mentioned about five reasons for this tendency. I think the first was that the novelty had worn off, and perhaps there is something in that. I asked a girl who is attending school whether she was still drinking milk, and she replied that she was not. I asked her why, and she said, "Frankly, I do not like the taste, but what I am doing, and what I am prepared to do, is to drink chocolate or cocoa made entirely with milk, apart from the chocolate." There may be something in the point of view that the novelty has worn off. Another reason, I think the last one that the hon. Gentleman gave, was that poverty entered into the question, and that is the point that I want to pursue. A halfpenny does not seem a large sum, but, in a family where the housekeeping expenses are large and the income is relatively small, it becomes, towards the end of the week, a rather difficult proposition for the housewife to continue to give the coppers. I have been looking at the figures for two towns, a borough and a city, which I know very well, namely, Rother-ham and Sheffield. I notice that in Rotherham the percentage is 39. The percentage in Sheffield is 64. I presume that is taking that city as a unit. I should like to know whether there has been any classification of the parts of Sheffield. If there is to be an inquiry, I think there ought to be a more careful classification. You might get 70 or 80 per cent. in the wealthier parts of the city and in the industrial parts between 30 and 40 per cent. It would be useful to know exactly what the statistics show in order to judge how far the poverty argument enters into it.
I wonder whether the Parliamentary Secretary could give figures with regard to some of the other Yorkshire towns, particularly those that are hard hit by unemployment. I know parts of South and West Yorkshire where the conditions generally are almost as bad, in selected places, as they are in what are known as the special areas. It would be helpful if we could know, in places like Wake-field, Castleford, Normanton, Hemsworth and districts of that kind, what percentage of milk is consumed in the schools. If we can do anything to increase it we shall feel it our duty to do it. Another point to which I can give hearty support is in regard to cheaper milk for hospitals. It cannot be disputed that it would be a step in the right direction. I note that the Consumers' Committee, in their report a year ago, had one or two things to say in regard to cheaper milk. One paragraph reads:
There is a paragraph in this Resolution dealing with the need for increasing the demand for milk. I will tell the Parliamentary Secretary what I found at a colliery I visited recently. We have welfare canteens at a number of collieries where, when I was more closely connected with the industry than I am to-day, the only kind of liquid that was sold was mineral waters. It was a pleasant surprise to me to find in this canteen that there was milk on sale, and it was being bought by the mineworkers when they came out of the pit. There is a good deal to be said for that. I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman could ascertain how far that is being carried out, whether it is limited to a particular area or whether it is general, and whether anything is being done to make it general. On the whole there is plenty of room for increasing the supply of milk, and it can be done if the Milk Marketing Board get down to it. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that greater attention is paid to the physical side to-day than was the case in days gone by. I believe both physical and mental training are necessary, and I am satisfied that, if a child attending school is well fed, it has a better chance of absorbing knowledge than if it is underfed. That is apparent in certain towns where the kiddies from the better areas show a better physique, and I am pleased that attention is being paid to the physical side. There are one or two problems arising out of that which will have to be discussed eventually, but on the whole it is a step in the right direction. I want the Parliamentary Secretary, when this investigation is made, to make the most careful inquiry to ascertain how far the poverty argument enters into it and, if it does enter into it, it is up to the House to make it easier for the children to get milk.
8.52 p.m.
I have listened with great interest to many speeches in the Debate and, being closely connected with the teaching profession and having had experience of cheap milk in schools, I feel it incumbent on me to say a word or two. There is no better or cheaper food than milk, and I was delighted when the scheme for schools was introduced. I was long enough in the schools to note the difference in the health of those who had been partaking of it. Many times I remarked to my staff about the roses coming into the cheeks of children who had been white-faced and wan. Not only were they better physically, but they were more alert mentally, proving what we school teachers have always said, that you must have a sound body before you try to make a sound mind. The great advantage of health ought to be the heritage of every child in the land.
I have been listening to some of the objections that have been made by schoolchildren to drinking milk, and I had to face some of the difficulties. Several pupils said they did not like it, but we found a way whereby almost every child who said he did not like it agreed to try it, because we persuaded the children to have a biscuit with the milk, and in most cases the addition of the biscuit made the child a lover of milk. Another thing that some children objected to was the straws through which they drink the milk. At my school, if a child objected to the straw, he was allowed to drink the milk out of a mug. Some of the boys objected to having the milk because it robbed them of part of their recreation time. We adopted the plan—the President of the Board of Education is not here—of letting them have the recreation period first, and we took five minutes out of the next lesson for them to have their milk.
I believe that if the provision of milk was extended to every day in the week, covering the holiday period as well, it would do infinitely more good, because it is the cumulative effect of taking it day after day that produces the best results. When you give a child milk for five days in a week and cut the supply off for two days the cumulative effect is lost. If you give a child milk for a few weeks and then, when the holidays come along, cut it off for a month, the cumulative effect again is lost. Surely it is not beyond the wit of man to devise some scheme whereby the extension of the provision of milk for children would cover the period of the week-end and holidays. A further extension ought to be made to include all children right from the earliest years, through the child welfare centres and clinics, and right away through the school life, and I would even go as far as to suggest that free or cheap milk ought to be available in the junior instruction centres.
Certainly the question of the quality of the milk should be taken into consideration. I used occasionally to send a bottle of milk out of my quantity for analysis to satisfy myself that my pupils, or my bairns as I called them, were getting the very best possible quality of milk. There ought to be no such thing as surplus milk. We are now charging the pupils in the schools a halfpenny for a third of a pint. If we sold the milk to those children at the rate at which it is sold for manufacturing purposes—school milk is not cheap milk when you compare it with the manufacturing price—if we gave each of the children in school a third of a pint of milk in the morning and a third of a pint in the afternoon, and still charged them a halfpenny a day, you would be getting the same price for your milk as you are now getting for surplus milk for manufacturing purposes.
The whole question, not only in relation to the children but in relation to parents in the distressed areas—I come from a special area in the County of Durham—is a fundamental one. If the workers have not the wherewithal to buy milk and other products of agriculture the farmers will never prosper. There must be a wedding between the agricultural and the industrial interests. The workers must have decent and adequate wages so that they can buy the products of agriculture. In the town where I live we have men bringing home 24s. a week for working in the quarries, and I had at my school a family of four children belonging to one of these workers who had to pay 10d. per week for milk for the four children. It does not sound very much, but 10d. out of 24s. was a considerable sum for that man to pay. As a schoolmaster, I am entirely in favour of free milk for children from two years or a year and a-half, right through the school to the junior instruction centres, because the country would be well repaid by the advantage of having sound healthy children.
9.0 p.m.
I am rather surprised at the course which this Debate has taken, and even more surprised that the agricultural supporters of the Government for whom the Minister has done so much have been so silent. I should have thought that after his four years' strenuous efforts we should have had them filling the benches opposite to-day and at least getting up and making speeches of gratitude for that which the Minister has done for the dairy industry of this country. But, strange to say, there appears to be no gratitude in politics even so far as the right hon. Gentleman is concerned. Many of us on these benches who have listened to the right hon. Gentleman expound his policy in a long series of speeches have come to regard him, as, I think, he regards him-self, as the architect of a new economic system. I am very glad that to-day his Parliamentary Secretary has joined the building society of this new economic system which we are to have as the result of the policy pursued by the present Minister of Agriculture. I confess that I am much more interested in the general policy of the Minister than in the details of the particular scheme we are discussing to-day. He himself must be beginning to understand by now that there are very few real results accruing from the policy which he is following.
I was very pleased to hear the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member fur West Stirling (Mr. Johnston), especially when he was telling the Committee about the age of plenty in which we are living and denouncing the methods by which the Minister is attempting to solve the problem—and we admit that he has a problem to face. The old policy of the Minister is being vitiated by the fact that he has no real control of production, and consequently finds himself in a very serious dilemma. The hon. Members who have supported him in all this policy of subsidies which he has been pursuing, and which he continues to-day by asking the Committee for the money that we are to vote in this Financial Resolution, have only been ready to support him so long as there was to be no real interference with production and private ownership. The right hon. Gentleman will, sooner or later, either have completely to abandon the policy he is now pursuing, or, if he is to make any sort of success of it, will have to interfere with private ownership as far as the agricultural industry is concerned. He will be absolutely unable to control production either of milk or anything else by the methods he is pursuing. He hopes to control it because of the marketing conditions he wants to establish.
I gather from what the Parliamentary Secretary had to say earlier to-day, that there was not a very striking note of confidence in his speech. It did not appear as if there was behind it any real belief in what he was advocating. It struck me as being appallingly apologetic, especially for a Parliamentary Secretary who has just taken up a new post. I do not know how he will feel about this matter in six months' time, but he certainly did not come to his task to-day with any great enthusiasm for the cause he was advocating. I am certain that both the Minister and his Parliamentary Secretary have realised that the things which they are trying to do by the methods which they are now employing are utterly impossible. They will, sooner or later, either have to abandon this policy or go very much further than they have gone at the moment.
I was interested to hear the Parliamentary Secretary associate the provision of milk in schools with the question of the new physical training circular which the Board of Education has sent out. I suppose that before he left the office which he formerly held he might very well have had something to do with the formulating of that circular. He at any rate believes that if you are to have any physical training worth while you must have adequate nutrition of the children to whom you are to give the physical training. If the success of physical training depends on milk being given in adequate quantities to the children, if that is the way we are going to get splendid physique, then I am sure these is enough surplus milk in this country by which, if it is rightly used, we could get a race of supermen. The point is that the milk does not seem to be getting to those who need it most. That is the major criticism we make against this proposal. There was a race of people in by-gone days who were pleased because they inhabited a land which they said was flowing with milk and honey. If the right hon. Gentleman continues to pursue his policy we shall have a land overflowing with milk and sugar. We shall have these things in superabundance. I suggest that the next task of the right hon. Gentleman, in view of what he has heard to-day from these benches, is to see that the milk and sugar, overflowing as it is, gets to the people who need it most.
9.7 p.m.
The Minister of Agriculture ought to be ashamed of the Memorandum he has presented to the House on this Financial Resolution, and particularly ashamed of himself in the presence of Scottish Members who know him so well. We know perfectly well that there is no man in this House who under stands this problem better than the right hon. Gentleman and he knows perfectly well that the Memorandum in no way touches the fringe of the problem. By training the Minister is a doctor—a medical doctor. He was educated at Glasgow University—
I hope that the fact that he was trained at Glasgow University does not account for the strange policy he is pursuing.
Not only that. His training gives him a knowledge, which is second to none in this House, of the amount of milk which this country is able to supply. The reason I refer to his medical training is to let the Committee understand that he is able at once to recognise the deterioration which is taking place in working class centres among children. His training enables him to recognise this at sight. Also his training as a farmer—he comes from farming stock—enables him to know that Great Britain is the greatest milk-producing country in the world. Nothing exceeds our production of milk per acre; indeed, at times we are faced with a surplus of milk. With all these qualifications and knowing all these facts, the right hon. Gentleman is not doing himself, or the country, or his constituency, justice in putting forward suggestions such as are contained in the Memorandum. He knows that there is plenty of milk in this country, and also that there are thousands of children deteriorating every day because of a lack of milk. It is his duty—in fact it ought to be his honour—to try to bring these two together. That is his business. There is this great supply of milk, the finest food we know of for children, and thousands of children who are deteriorating because they lack milk. It it is not necessary for us to import milk; and all that we import is inferior to our own. No matter what the brand of condensed milk may be, it is inferior to the milk which we produce.
Hon. Members have heard the testimony of a schoolmaster who has seen the children in a distressed area. We are not to call them distressed areas now but special areas, because the Government are ashamed to admit that there is such a thing in this country as a distressed area; in a land which is flowing with milk and honey such as no biblical country ever experienced. That is not an idle jest; it is a fact. We have heard a schoolmaster from among the children saying that as a result of the children getting milk the wan cheeks are becoming red; that we have happy children. The greatest assets any country could possibly have are well fed, happy children. The Minister of Agriculture and every Member of the Cabinet know perfectly well that there are tens of thousands of little children in this country who are on the point of starvation, and yet we have to prove malnutrition before we can get a special grant to meet a. special case.
We can get money for battleships, for aeroplanes, for mechanising the Army— [An HON. MEMBER: "And for the 'Cunarder'"!] Yes, money for the "Cunarder." I do not deny it. I have never apologised for doing all I could to get that money, and I would do the same thing again. That money did not in any way prevent the Cabinet from giving the children of the country the necessaries of life. The Minister of Agriculture has a glorious opportunity, if he has the courage to face up to the Cabinet on this question, as he has done on other things, and fight for the children, as it is his duty to do. He represents one of the most awful parts of the city of Glasgow, where poverty is rampant. As a result of that poverty crime, disease and all manner of things that need not exist are to be found. Those things would not exist if the people were properly looked after by the Government. For these things the Government and the Minister of Agriculture are responsible, and so far as I am concerned I shall hold them to that responsibility so long as the right hon. Gentleman claims the honour to be a Cabinet Minister.
9.16 p.m.
I wish to draw the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to the fact that up and down the country people are wondering about these subsidies. They are wondering why there should be these subsidies while the goods are not being delivered. We have heard a great deal about the enormous surpluses of milk and of subsidies being poured into the dairy industry. We are told that bonuses have to be paid and that there is such a large quantity of milk that it has to be distributed at a very low price to the factories, so that they may use it. I appeal to the Minister to work out a scheme that will bring to the homes of the people who need it the full value of the milk that is being sent to the factories. There is another problem besides that of the children. We speak of the children being helped by means of cheap milk in the schools. I have never understood that the people generally have been consuming enormous quantities of milk by drinking it as a liquid. The bulk of the milk used in this country is used by the housewife in cooking.
Not long ago hon. and right hon. Members opposite were saying to the country, "Trust us and we will see you through your troubles." Are they doing that? There are other problems beside the milk problem to be solved in the capitalist system. There is the problem of meat. We have upwards of 2,000,000 people unemployed, and millions more who are taking scarcely any wages home. Certainly, the wages that they are taking home are not sufficient to provide adequate subsistence to the family. At Christmas we had our holidays, but what of the men who were delivering the goods to enable us to have our holidays and to enable many hon. Members opposite to have their stately homes? What would they do on 15s. a week?
The hon. Member may be right in saying that there are many other problems, but it is only the milk problem with which we have to deal to-day.
A wage of 15s. for a family of four or five will not buy milk. Let me tell the Committee what was said by a dairy farmer to farmers who were grumbling about the low prices they were getting for their cattle at the local market when the price of beasts fell. He said to them: "Give the miners more wages and then your beasts will be bought and you will get the price." In my constituency some of the farmers—I am speaking now of hard working farmers who are thoroughly interested in their jobs and want to deliver the goods—are not happy about this milk business. They know that there are many people who could do with the milk but are unable to purchase it. Farmers grumble about the levies they have to pay.
I would like the Minister to work out a scheme that would minimise if not obviate the necessity of subsidising the factories that are making cheese, condensed milk and so forth. He might work out a scheme that would enable the value of that milk to go to the homes of the people who are not only unemployed but who are working but unable to earn sufficient to enable them to purchase the necessaries for their homes. If that can be done the farming question in relation to milk will be largely solved. At the present time we are handing out subsidies and saying that there is an over production of milk and at the other end we are having to dispose of it in a most wasteful way. We maintain that it is not necessary for the Government to come here repeatedly asking for subsidies. They have the solution in their own hands if they will only apply it. Your problem— and until you have solved it you are not appreciating the difficulty of the people who are not getting milk—is to deliver the milk to the people.
9.25 p.m.
I think that the right hon. Gentleman and the Parliamentary Secretary will have to-night a feeling parallel to that which they had on 31st May, 1934. On that occasion they stood almost alone in this House in support of the Measure they then brought forward. It is true that right hon. and hon. Gentlemen who spoke from the Conservative Benches welcomed the Measure as an emergency proposal, but in almost every speech made on that occasion and in the subsequent Debate on 7th June, 1934, there was a united appeal to the Minister not to be content with what he conceived to be an emergency proposal, but to get down to the more serious problem of complete re-organisation of the milk industry. To-day the right hon. Member for North Cornwall (Sir F. Acland) supported the idea of getting rid of the milk by supplying it not to factories but to school children. One of the hon. Members for Bristol supported the idea that milk should be made available to hospitals, institutions, and nursing mothers. The hon. and gallant Member for Chippen-ham (Captain Cazalet) welcomed the idea and said there should be an extension of the supply of milk to elementary schools.
The hon. Member for Altrincham (Sir E. Grigg) made observations parallel to those he made in 1934, except that then he declared that if our speeches have been made when the Minister was dealing with long-range policy he would have supported us completely. He only gave his support on that occasion because he regarded this as a purely emergency Measure. The hon. Member for Shettle-ston (Mr. McGovern) and the hon. Member for the English Universities (Miss Rathbone), and indeed almost every hon. Member who has spoken, indicated that the policy of the right hon. Gentleman is no more likely to be successful now than it was in 1934. I am inclined to agree with them, and I shall try to show that almost every prognostigation we then made has been borne out by the facts. The National Government came into office as an emergency Government in 1931. It is still an emergency Government, and its policy has been a policy of emergencies and expedients. It is true to say that they have tackled almost every problem, but they have not solved one yet, and we are still hoping that they may some day provide a permanent policy and a lasting solution. Sugar beet went on and on like Tennyson's brook, and now under the right hon. Gentleman's latest Measure is to go on for ever. The subsidy for beef was repeated four times. The milk emergency scheme is to be extended for a further 18 months.
The problem to-day is exactly the same problem as that with which we were confronted two years ago—an unlimited supply of liquid milk to a nation of potential consumers who are incapable, because of the absence of purchasing power, of buying that milk. When the right hon. Gentleman declared two years ago that he wanted to underpin the manufacturing price, expand liquid milk sales, and clean up the herds, we differed from him fundamentally and proclaimed that unless our ideas were completely falsified, at the end of two years the problem would be more intense and acute than it was then. When we then argued for the free supply of milk to elementary school children, nursing mothers, clinics and so forth, we were putting into the mind of the right hon. Gentleman a greater potential solution of this problem than the suggestions he made. My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for East Bristol (Sir S. Cripps) put up an unanswerable case and received great support in the House. The Liberal party and almost the whole House were in favour of our scheme at that time.
Since then the schoolmaster has been abroad. We find that our efforts have not been in vain. Education is finding its way into the dark recesses of the minds of other than members of the Socialist party. Sir John Orr tells us that 4,500,000 people are not receiving sufficient milk for a healthy life. The "Times" has taken up the hue and cry. It seems to me that the right hon. Gentleman cannot have examined the whole facts or he would be a very embarrassed Minister at this moment. In 1934 I argued that the simple process of providing a subsidy for manufactured milk or liquid milk, if it would do anything, would be bound to attract a greater flow of milk on to the market. I asked the right hon. Gentleman what was to happen if at the end of two years he had created a greater production. The right hon. Gentleman said "Drink it." I asked him who was going to drink it. He said, "The public." I asked who was going to persuade them to drink it. He said, "I am."
He has given me some figures to-day which prove that the surplus available for factory consumption is far greater than it was two years ago when he introduced his emergency Measure. I asked him for figures of the sales of liquid milk for the year ended 30th September, 1934, and the quantity sold for manufacture, and for similar figures for the next year. These are the figures. In 1934 liquid milk sales were 633,000,000 gallons; for manufacture, 192,000,000 gallons. For the next year liquid milk sales were 659,000,000 gallons; factory consumption, 301,000,000 gallons. Instead of the right hon. Gentleman having persuaded the British population to consume the extra milk, they have only consumed 26,000,000 more gallons, while 109,000,000 gallons more have gone into factory consumption.
How does that affect the problem which is confronting the right hon. Gentleman and the farmers to-day? The greater the output the greater the quantities available for factory consumption and the lower the pool price. Of necessity, all the producers, through the Marketing Board, must be demanding a higher price for liquid milk and the board at the recent inquiry, which covered, I understand, about 36 days, demanded not a reduction in the price of liquid milk so that consumers in all grades of society might be able to consume it but an increase in the price. If it be true, as the right hon. Gentleman knows it to be true, that millions of our people at present find it impossible to purchase reasonable quantities of liquid milk at existing prices how are they to consume more if the price is increased? That is the Minister's problem. He is attracting more milk into a market where the spending power to purchase it at existing prices is not available. There is a greater quantity of liquid milk available with an almost static consumption. The greater quantity must of necessity go into the factories at 4d. a gallon and automatically reduce the pool price to the milk producers.
What then is the right hon. Gentleman's policy? The Parliamentary Secretary to-day repeated what the Minister said in 1934, namely, that they wanted to underpin the manufacturing end of the industry, otherwise the whole edifice would topple over. We agree to the extent that something had to be done. We do not deny that some emergency measure was necessary but to extend an emergency measure of this kind for three and a-half years is not the sort of expedient that we should apply. Instead of solving the problem it is increasing the problem. It seems to me that the position to-day is far worse than it was in 1934. We are informed by the Parliamentary Secretary that the schools experiment has increased consumption from 10,000,000 gallons per annum to 23,000,000 gallons but while liquid milk consumption has increased by 13,000,000 gallons let us bear in mind that the amount available, which must of necessity go into factory consumption has increased by 109,000,000 gallons. As to what that means to the general pool price, ask any farmers' representative. They know all about it.
The problem, as I say, is infinitely worse than it was two years ago and I cannot see how the right hon. Gentleman is going to escape from it or how he is going to solve the problem merely by continuing this Measure which has had an adverse effect during the past two years. What has been the general experience? I quoted during the Debates in 1934 the figures given in the Cardiff inquiry. The figures are well known to every hon. Member who listened to those Debates, and I need only refer to one which showed that 26 per cent. of poor working-class homes in a certain category of the four categories dealt with had no liquid milk at all. It seems to me that there is nothing in this Measure calculated to bring any milk into those homes or to do any more than has been done during the past two years, and that has been merely to increase the quantities available for manufacturing purposes. Since 1934 there has been a further inquiry in the Rhondda Valley, one of our special areas, and the facts and figures made available as a result of that inquiry are as bad as those disclosed by the Cardiff inquiry.
It seems to me that the evidence at our disposal, without any further experimentation, leads to one conclusion. There is a commodity in superabundant quantity of which every family in the nation ought to have a fair share, but, because of low wages, large numbers of people are unable to purchase their quota. As a result a surplus is left on the market. The right hon. Gentleman or the Government must do one of two things, either find spending power for that section of the community who cannot afford to pay existing prices for liquid milk, or find an alternative method of disposing of the liquid milk at a price that will pay the producers better than the manufacturing price pays them. No proposal is made here for increasing the wages of the poorest paid section of the community. Therefore Members of the Opposition are driven to any alternative that they can find, as a means of partially solving a recognised problem.
What do we suggest? I am sure that the party of which I am a member are not merely advancing the ideal of free milk for elementary school children and other sections of the community, merely because we want to get something for nothing. I hope we place our proposals on a higher basis than that. I hope also that when the right hon. Gentleman replies he will be a wee bit more specific and definite than the Parliamentary Secretary was in his references to milk for school children. He told us that if we doubled or even trebled the quantity of milk consumed in schools, it would have little or no effect upon the broad problem. That is hardly facing the situation. According to him there are 300,000,000 gallons on the market at approximately 4d. a gallon. We suggest that this experiment ought to be carried into a practical stage. We appreciate the difficulties of arranging to provide milk for all elementary school children but the solution of this problem is worthy of some thought and it is worth the expenditure of some money and our proposal is one which ought to be seriously considered by the right hon. Gentleman.
Under the present scheme in some elementary schools there are children who because of the poverty of their homes have free milk; other children who pay 1d. per one-third of a pint and also children who receive no milk at all. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for North Cornwall referred to the difficulties of the teacher, and we know that all sorts of problems arise, but we ought to aim, as nearly as we can, at supplying those children whose parents cannot afford to buy liquid milk for them with some of the surplus now finding its way into the factories. Probably the right hon. Gentleman and the Parliamentary Secretary will take note of the figures that were given by the Minimum Allowance Committee. The Committee suggest that if the whole of the 6,000,000 elementary school children received one-third of a pint on school days, the consumption would be 50,000,000 gallons per annum. If half the children obtained one-third of a pint on non-school days there would be a further consumption of 20,500,000 gallons. Assuming there are 3,500,000 expectant mothers and mothers with children under five in the same social class, and that half of them received one-third of a pint of milk per day, the consumption would be another 26,500,000 gallons, making a total of 97,000,000 gallons per annum. This is on the assumption that they all took their quota of milk; I do not know whether or not slimming, and the other doubtful reasons which were stated today, would operate.
Here is a potential market for 97,000,000 gallons per annum. If the quota were increased from one-third of a pint—which, after all, is very small—to half a pint per person per day, the amount would be 145,000,000 gallons per annum. The Parliamentary Secretary talked about doubling or trebling 10,000,000 gallons, but here are some figures, based upon careful calculations, which deal with 145,000,000 gallons per annum, an amount which would make a very nasty hole in the embarrassing surplus which exists. As the "Times"' stated, instead of pouring this milk into factories, it could be poured down the throats of the children who require it. What would be the cost? It is difficult to make an estimate, but we do know that milk can be sold to factories at 4d. a gallon. Suppose 145,000,000 gallons were sold at 1s. a gallon—the price which children are now paying for it in the schools, a price three times as much as that paid by the factories—the cost would be £7,000,000 per annum. I can almost see hon. Members opposite jump- ing in their seats, but they do not seem to jump so readily these days when one talks about £7,000,000—they have become accustomed to talk of £300,000,000 for armaments, £7,000,000 to £8,000,000 for beet sugar and so on; but in any case if £7,000,000 of money were paid from the Treasury to this industry for the purpose of providing milk for those who cannot afford to buy it in the only form in which they ought to receive it— liquid form—it would be a sound investment for the State to make, and would finally solve the problem of the light hon. Gentleman the Minister for Agriculture.
May I remind the right hon Gentleman of some of his statements? Last Monday in this House he said that the one thing he was concerned about was employment. He said that the Greene Committee, when referring to the Sugar Commission, had simply been thinking in terms of sugar, but that he thought in terms of agriculture. There are 39,800 growers of sugar beet, but there are 141,000 producers of milk. Is employment not so important in dairying as it is in the sugar beet industry, and if we give millions to the sugar beet industry, as we have done for 11 years, is it too much to ask, with a view to finding a permanent solution for the milk problem, that £7,000,000 of milk should be poured into the stomachs of the children of this country? I know that the mere giving away of money is a very easy solution. But we cannot throw overboard that policy as long as we are absolutely satisfied that the spending power does not exist, and the Government will not help to provide it. The surplus of milk continues to be embarrassing, and at the moment the only possible means of a solution that we can see is, as the "Times" said on Thursday, 13th February, to pour the milk down the throats of the children instead of pouring it into the factories. We rarely get support from the "Times," but on this they support us, as do Members in all parts of the House. The "Times" said:
We stand exactly where we stood two years ago, and we say again to the right hon. Gentleman that unless he can devise ways and means of disposing of more liquid milk and less milk to the factories, he will at the end of 18 months be confronted with an almost insurmountable problem. We know that the mere giving of milk to children will perhaps not solve the whole problem permanently, and we do not expect that to happen. We want the right hon. Gentleman to pay some attention to the re-organisation of the industry. I know he will tell us that the Re-organisation Commission has been sitting for a long time, and that he expects a report in a few months. We want the right hon. Gentleman to pay some attention not only to the question of getting rid of surpluses, but to the costs of production. The recent inquiry has given us some figures concerning those costs, and they range from 6d. to Is, 3d. a gallon, the average being about 9d. The difference between the highest cost and the lowest cost is too large, and indicates that there is room for a great improvement on the production side. The right hon. Gentleman must give some attention to that matter, for, after all, it is not sufficient to have one emergency measure after another, the one costing £5,500,000 and the next costing £2,000,000, going on year after year and leaving us in the end just as we were in the beginning.
I do not mind what the right hon. Gentleman does with regard to the distribution of markets. My right hon. Friend the Member for Hillsborough (Mr. Alexander) has already made a suggestion for an inquiry regarding the marketing of milk, but if both the margins to which reference was made were reduced, the price of liquid milk to the consumers would still be beyond the reach of working-class families in this country. I doubt whether the right hon. Gentleman the Minister for Agriculture will be willing to do so, but we want him to get down to the root problem of costs of production and to insist upon the most efficient distributive system that can be obtained. I will go farther and say that we are convinced that unless and until there is a nationally controlled distribution of this basic foodstuff there will never be a solution of the problem. I would readily support a scheme for nationalising milk distribution. It is the right hon. Gentleman's problem, however, believing, as he does, to deal with the productive and distributive sides and the disposing of the surplus too.
I am astounded that the hon. and gallant Member for Maldon (Sir E. Ruggle-Brise) has not entered this Debate. He always has a solution for all agricultural problems. He wants the right hon. Gentleman's long-term policy to come in. What does that mean? Hon. Members opposite declare that if the Minister will only impose an increased duty upon imported dairy products, then, Heigh presto, everything will automatically follow. What is the position at this moment? The Parliamentary Secretary indicated that you cannot do anything with regard to imports from the Dominions. He knows, of course, and so does the Minister, that they cannot upset the large volume of cheese and dairy products that come from the Dominions. With regard to dairy products imported from foreign countries, we are already paying a duty of 15s. per cwt. on butter, 15 per cent. ad valorem upon imported cheese, and from 5s. to 6s. per cwt. on condensed and dried milk. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will be good enough to tell us how much these duties will have to be increased so that he can satisfy himself that manufacturers in this country can compete favourably either with our Dominions or with foreign countries, because that seems to be the hope of his supporters—a duty, and a levy, and a distribution among milk producers. It is quite simple to talk about, but it will be much more difficult for the right hon. Gentleman to apply.
We recognise that this problem, is of grave national importance, but we recognise also that it is a real national opportunity, and if this problem can be approached from a health point of view, I am convinced that many of those disastrous figures referred to by my right hon. Friend who opened the Debate on this side can be reduced and the health of the country improved, and, broadly speaking, we should really be helping our dairying industry back into prosperity. I think, with the "Times," that the country is ready for an advance in this respect. Just as it was willing to go forward with a great housing policy, now I believe it is ready to go forward with a great national health policy, and it is in the right hon. Gentleman's hands to make a bold step forward. He ought to move from emergency Motions and expedients to a real, permanent policy, and when he does that he will find hon. and right hon. Members on these benches willing to support him, but not so long as he attacks the problem from the wrong end, in dealing with abundance either by creating scarcity or sending the best of all forms of food to factories when it ought to be poured down the throats of those youngsters who can consume it, even though it may cost the Treasury as much perhaps per annum as they are now paying for sugar beet.
9.59 p.m.
We have had a long and not uninteresting Debate. Shortly before dinner, when the Whips were making their usual calculations, they said to me, "Will it be over by seven?" I replied, "The House of Commons has got hold of something in which it is really interested, and I should be very much surprised if the Debate were over before ten o'clock." After all, we are considering to-night two problems to which we have of late devoted more and more attention, one the problem of nutrition and public health and the other agriculture, and both of these are problems of such interest that they naturally engross our attention for far longer than some of the perfunctory Debates which used to take place on either of these subjects. We are getting down to facts, to realities, both in agriculture and in nutrition, and I should certainly be the last to complain about the course which the Debate has taken to-night. It was interesting to find so much attention devoted by the hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) to the support from the "Times" newspaper, and no doubt when the "Times" is opposed to him, he will also show himself as much impressed by its adverse opinion as he is to-night by its favourable opinion. I was also very deeply interested to find that, although the hon. Member said, "We stand exactly where we did two years ago," he did himself an injustice. He has moved a little since that time. I looked up one or two of his statements two years ago, and he was extremely doubtful whether anything whatever would happen with regard to the scheme for milk in schools. He said, on the 31st May, 1934:
"With regard to the maintenance of minimum prices, publicity, and cheap milk for school children, we think there may be a germ of wisdom in the latter proposal, but even that is so small as not to be commendable to those who sit on these benches." —[OFFICIAL REPORT, 31st May, 1934; col. 386, Vol. 290.]
Well, 2,750,000 children are getting milk to-day who would not have been getting milk if these proposals had been defeated two years ago.
indicated dissent.
The hon. Member shakes his head. I would like to debate the matter with him at some future time.
The right hon. Gentleman will admit that there were 900,000 children receiving milk at that time, and it is fair to assume that their numbers would have grown, but I admit, of course, that the numbers have increased during the two years on the consumption.
Not only have the numbers increased, but they are getting milk to-day at half the price at which they were getting it then, and another great army besides. What is more, the cheapening of the milk to the local authorities, for to them also it is made available at these prices, has meant the doubling of those who are getting milk entirely free. We say that in the face of the crisis, whose existence the hon. Gentleman admits, as also does the right hon. Member for West Stirlingshire (Mr. T. Johnston), in the price of liquid milk all over the world, we in this country have maintained a relatively stable market and we have been able, in addition, to make a great advance in what we all recognise as necessary and desirable, namely, an increase in the consumption of liquid milk, particularly in the schools. We make no apology for that.
The hon. Member for Don Valley said he seemed to detect some apologetic note in the speech of my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary. It was not detected by anyone else on those benches when the Parliamentary Secretary was speaking of the interest which he took in physical education, and a feeling which he had when at the Board of Education that we were perhaps laying too much stress in the past on development of the mind and not enough on development of the body. It was not for any lack of confidence in what he was saying that he was twitted from the benches opposite, but because they thought he was too robustly advancing the case which he very competently made. To-day we feel that education of the mind is not everything. We realise that more care must be given in the future to the healthy body in which we hope to house the healthy mind. The ex-High Commissioner for the Church of Scotland will forgive me if I speak in the vernacular instead of in the classical tongue to which he and I, educated in Scottish schools, are much more accustomed, no doubt.
We realise that we have to do two things, and that they are not the same things. We have to maintain the milk industry and the production of milk, and we have also to secure, so far as we can, the health and upbuilding of the future generation. No greater injury could be done to either of those causes than to try to fuse the two. If we advance the cause of health in the schools on the ground of merely finding a receptacle for the surplus of milk or anything else, we shall defeat our own objects. People do not like an approach like that; they will not stand it. The children ought to be treated from the point of view of citizens whom we wish to upbuild, not as ash-cans into which we can tip any surplus we may happen to have at the time. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I apply that condemnation to myself as much as to hon. Members opposite. I am applying it to all parts of the Committee. There is a danger for enthusiasts on every side—and I am applying it more particularly to the enthusiasts for agriculture on this side— to say that we should let somebody consume something because there is a surplus, rather than that we should let somebody consume something because it is good for them and will make them healthy and strong. I am not attempting to make any party point out of it. I say that the danger of using the surplus simply because it exists is undoubtedly one of the evils against which we have to guard in the development of this new policy.
I welcome the criticism which has been made from all parts of the Committee about the defects in the Milk-in-Schools scheme. The milk is supplied at unsuitable times, the milk for some reason is unsuited for the children, or, as the hon. Member for Jarrow (Miss Wilkinson) said, it is taken into account in computing relief, and is therefore taken with great apprehension by the family in case it might lead to a cutting down of the sums which come into the home. All these are practical working matters, and we are asking the Committee for this further extension of time in order to investigate them. I know as a Scottish Member, and other Scottish Members know, how the fact that 900,000 children were receiving milk under the National Milk Publicity Council greatly helped the English scheme. We in Scotland were short of experience, short of administrative experience and of experience in the actual giving of milk in the schools. I am sure that if I were in the position at this moment to introduce a full long-term policy, I should not ask the Committee to accept it. I would say that this period of test—not of experiment— of administrative experience will be most valuable to us when we come, as we shall within a few months, to the framing of the long-term policy in this section of agriculture.
The two problems with which we are faced are the maintenance of milk production and the maintenance and improvement of the nutrition of the people and health in our schools. There will be other opportunities of debating them at length, and I do not intend to go into them at length to-night. The maintenance of the dairy industry is the problem which comes first. If there is no milk, the children cannot get it to drink, and the danger is that while we are all thinking how advisable it would be if we could get more milk to the children, we may run the risk of not paying the producer or the distributor sufficient to produce and distribute that milk. That is the first problem we have to handle. There is not merely a disparity, but a very great disparity, between the price of liquid milk in this country and the price of milk products, because on liquid milk we are working on a naturally protected market where only this island itself is concerned; but with milk products we are working on a market which is open to all the countries of the world who trade with us and who send products in at prices generally below the prices which they charge their own nationals, and in quantities and under conditions which have no relation to the world market as we used to know it, but are the conditions under which people are clearing surplus goods.
We have this wide disparity between the liquid milk market and the processed milk market, and yet without the processed market it is impossible to maintain the liquid milk market. The processed milk market cannot be treated as a thing that has been set up here, as the hon. Member for North Cumberland (Mr. W. Roberts) said, as something which was being developed in this market in competition with the Dominions who were the natural source of supply. It is inevitable that grass grows faster in summer than in winter, and that there is a greater flush of milk in summer than there is in winter. It is also true that, subject as we are in this country to changes of weather such as we have experienced in recent weeks, a certain surplus of milk over requirements must be maintained in order that those requirements may be met in all cases. You must have a surplus even in winter. It is true that the surplus has grown to a size which makes it difficult to dispose of just now. This is the problem which we are tackling to-night and which we shall have to tackle in many future Debates.
We have to begin, then, with the maintenance of the dairy industry. The maintenance of that industry involves the maintenance of a surplus to liquid requirements, and that surplus will be higher in summer than in winter, but there will be a surplus in both summer and winter. We found a dairy industry in existence, not under conditions such as those in which a problem is dealt with in the lecture room, but actually under the conditions in which it existed. The manufacturing milk problem was intensified by what the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Stirling (Mr. Johnston) called the invention of the spirit engine, which made these manufacturing milk surpluses immediately available in the liquid market. The hon. Member for Don Valley has suggested that an enormous surplus of milk for manufacture suddenly grew up. Most of that surplus was always there, and was used for manufacturing. Seventy per cent. or more was used for that purpose before the Act of 1934 was on the Statute Book or before the Milk Board was in existence. When he blames us or the Board for using up this surplus or for giving money to destroy it, he is really talking of things which do not bear the sinister interpretation which he put upon them.
If it be destroying the milk to make cheese or to make butter, with which I do not agree, then the destruction is as great if the cheese or butter is made at a farm or if the milk is taken to a factory and the cheese and butter made there. You cannot expect the House to believe that the Minister is extracting public money from the Treasury for the purpose of destroying valuable food and rendering it inaccessible. It is not so. Let me dispose of the somewhat ridiculous story, which I was surprised to hear repeated, that some of the milk was being used for umbrella handles. I would challenge that, because not a single penny of Government money spent now or in the past on any milk is going to any other process than the processing of milk for food.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he has converted a very considerable gallonage of milk at public expense into dried milk, which is used for a variety of purposes, including that just referred to?
I challenge that. The dried milk has been used for food. I have seen references to milk being used for umbrella handles, but have never been able to find any authority for the statement, and I say that the Government subsidy has been used for milk processed for use as food and not for any other purpose. The handling of manufacturing milk involved the underpinning of the market at that end, and underpinning of the market at the manufacturing end was carried on, admittedly, as an emergency proposal, but as an emergency proposal it continued a process which had been long in existence in these islands, the manufacture of cheese and butter, a process which none of us in this House would wish to see entirely extinguished. The sums which have gone to that purpose have gone to the maintenance of an industry which has stood up to its problems and has grappled with thorn for itself.
Hon. and right hon. Members opposite have asked what steps have been taken towards improving the milk supply. Steps have been taken by the Government which it would be out of order to refer to to-night, since there is no money for those steps in this Vote, and the Milk Marketing Board itself has taken practical steps to improve the quality of the milk by making a levy on all producers and giving a bonus of 1d. a gallon on all milk which comes up to the standard of Grade A; and in a relatively short time they have brought 27 per cent. or more of the milk up to Grade A standard. That is a far greater improvement in the quality and the cleaning up of the milk supply than has been attained in any comparable time by any other administrative Measure.
I was glad to hear the hon. Member for Carmarthen (Mr. Hopkin) pay a tribute to the work of the Milk Marketing Board. It is the fashion to condemn these elected boards and to compare them unfavourably with the great directorates of business companies. I sympathise with the hon. Member for Carmarthen for, after all, these boards, democratically elected, hastily brought together, grappling with great problems, have been surprisingly successful in dealing with them, and it is only fair to pay a tribute to those who have done that very great work. It is true that we and the Government have done our best to help them; but they are bodies having their own corporate entities. They have come into being in all parts of our economic structure, and it must be realised that they will be permanent features of it in the future. Great organisations of consumers, like the co-operative societies, will do ill if they show themselves jealous of the organised producers coming into existence at this time. The organised producer is not content merely to carry water and hew wood for the organised consumers. The boards have faced up to this matter in a practical and businesslike spirit, and I have every hope that the House will find it possible to cooperate with them in the future in solving the problems before us.
The right hon. Member for North Cornwall (Sir F. Acland) put certain questions which I think it will be necessary to answer. He said that if we are in future to co-operate with these boards we must be sure that there shall be reasonable control of the sums of money entrusted to them by this House. I think that is so, as we have shown in the past when dealing with such bodies on a permanent basis. In the case of wheat we have set up a commission appointed by the Minister to be the eyes and ears of this House in the matter of administering such sums as were handed over. We propose to adopt a similar course in the case of sugar, and if we should put this arrangement for milk on a permanent footing some such step would be taken. It would be impossible to set up an organisation and hand over to it large sums of money unconditionally, and this House clearly draws the conditions on which it is handing over these sums in the Financial Resolution. In the case of milk in schools the money is handed over subject to the advice of a committee presided over by Lord Astor, who are supervising the milk in schools scheme, and to whose work I should wish to pay a tribute. I hope very much that these explanations will make it possible for the right hon. Gentleman to support us in the Division Lobby, since he indicated that he was still in doubt and that his verdict would be largely decided by the answers which I gave to some of his questions.
I have spoken of the necessity of underpinning the structure and of maintaining the scope of our operations. On the subject of the use of the products of the dairy industry I wish to speak very briefly, because it was gone into at some length by the Parliamentary Secretary, whose personal knowledge of it is greater than mine. I would say, however, that the difference between schools in areas closely comparable in economic status is itself a most interesting point, which would make it necessary and desirable for a further test and experimental period to be continued by this House, so that we can frame our long-term policy on the results of practice and not merely on the results of theory. We have had only one or two school years running through from start to finish where we can see the results of our labours. It is odd, considering how very greatly children are helped, we believe, by milk in schools, to find that a number of children do not get milk in the schools— it may be from poverty or from some other cause. Poverty is not the sole cause, as can be seen by the comparable figures which were given by the Parliamentary Secretary to-night, and before we finally make up our minds, all these problems ought to be investigated and, if possible, solved. We are engaged upon a very great task which closely concerns the health and strength of the rising generation of this country.
When the statement is made that we should, here and now, adopt some ad hoc method for children and more particularly for adults, in ensuring the consumption of this milk, I would say again that the Committee would be well advised to take thought before embarking upon that step. I have heard suggestions that cards should be sold by the Ministry of Labour to the unemployed whereby they could buy more milk. That seems to me to be coming terribly close to the issue of ration cards. There is a grave danger of segregation of the classes in some of these proposals. [ Interruption, ] I do not think that that is a contribution to our discussions. There is a very great problem, when it comes to issuing relief in kind or issuing food cards, special cheap tickets for food, to certain classes of the community.
Surely the right hon. Gentleman realises that what causes the segregation of classes is the existence of the need and not the mode chosen for relieving that need.
That is one of those general statements which would he hotly disputed in many parts of the House, and in none more hotly than on the Labour Benches. There was opposition throughout the discussion of the Unemployment Insurance Bill against relief being given in kind. It was a very clear indication that, to any workman in this country, the fact of segregation was not merely because of the need but because of the way in which that need was met. We should have to think twice and three times before we came to any such decision and placed it upon the Statute Book. I think we should have regard rather to the general price structure so far as is possible, and I am sure that that general price structure is one of the points to which the Committee has rightly devoted its attention. It is said that we desire some sort of general reduction in the price of milk and milk products, and the hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) suggested that milk should be made available at 1s. per gallon, with a distributive margin of some 6d. or so. That is very much higher than the distributive margin which he was willing to allow when he was discussing this matter in June, 1934, when he suggested that 1d. per gallon would be a reasonable margin for the distribution of large quantities such as would be supplied to elementary schools. I do not think that under any conditions anybody would like to distribute a gallon of milk to some 30 or 40 children, with all the work necessary for the collection of bottles and the rest, and get 1d. as a return for all that work.
I stand where I stood then.
The hon. Gentleman does himself injustice. He is making progress, as, indeed, we are. It may be that in the future our converging paths will meet and an agreed scheme will evolve from that, as an agreed scheme evolved in the case of sugar beet last summer. The final test of the matter is the cheapness, not merely of milk, but of milk products, and the consumption, not merely of milk, but of milk products. This country, although it shows low in the consumption of liquid milk by itself, shows high in the consumption of liquid milk, cheese and butter—the two kinds of processed milk as well as the liquid milk. Let it be remembered that to the adult cheese and butter are very valuable forms of food, and it is not unneccessary to remind the Committee that, after all, the bull does not drink milk. Milk is drunk by the calves; it is excellent food for the growing young animals.
We have to consider whether the producers are getting reasonable prices for the milk and for the milk products, and on that question the policy of the Government has been to secure as far as possible a general lowering of the price level which makes the product available to all. A general lowering of the price level has made butter, for instance, widely available to ranges of persons who previously never tasted it in this country, and that is one of the points which the Government are entitled to quote on the favourable side in asking the House to consider this part of the experiment in the technique of absorbing the surplus, of which I have spoken before to the House and of which I shall have to speak again. The great world surpluses of butter have been sent here and absorbed here under conditions created by the Act of 1934. Without that Act it would have been impossible so to absorb those great surpluses which were sent to these shores and consumed here, undoubtedly with great advantage to our people. The reductions in the imports of butter abroad have been very great. The reduction in the German import of butter between 1930 and 1933 reached as high a figure as 55 per cent., and in Europe as a whole, excluding the United Kingdom, it reached 48 per cent. During the same period the United Kingdom increase reached 29½ per cent. and the consumption of butter per head has gone up from 15 lbs. to 25 lbs. in recent years. That goes with a low price rate for butter and cheese. The low price makes it possible for us to absorb the surplus, but only on the condition that somehow or other we satisfy the other term of our requirements, namely, a decent living for the folk on the land. The coal industry has sometimes been a little unfriendly to-night in its references to the agricultural industry. When it is said "Give more money to the miner and he will buy the food," it is also necessary to say, "Give more money to the agricultural labourer and he will burn the coal." We have succeeded in raising agricultural wages to the highest point for 10 years, and in having agricultural wages 50 per cent. above those in the United States, the great apostle of the high-wage policy among the countries of the world.
Will the right hon. Gentleman tell the House when wages were at the lowest point during the last 10 years?
They were at the lowest point when the full weight of the slump was felt and before any of the remedial measures which I and other Ministers have proposed to the House.
The right hon. Gentleman has not told us what year that was?
1930 and 1931 and the early part of 1932, before the measures that we commended to the House had been put into effect, and if we had not succeeded in putting them through, against the opposition of many hon. Members opposite, wages would be at that point to-day, and worse.
They are not much to boast of now.
They are not much to boast of now and, if you succeed in defeating this Resolution, they will not be as much even as they are to-day. [ Interruption. ] We are not accustomed to resigning. Sooner or later the country-comes round to our point of view. We have before the country to-day a policy which asks for a further prolongation of the period of test and experiment for which we asked the House two years ago. We say that that policy has been successful in maintaining the milk market, in bringing the milk to the schools, in bringing great quantities of dairy produce at a low price to the rank and file of the working people, and in helping to maintain the wages and conditions of employment in the agricultural industry which, but for this and other measures, would certainly not be so good to-day. Consequently we ask for the money to-night in the hope that the Committee will grant it to us, and with the assurance that, if they grant it, we shall not dissipate it or the time gained by the vote of the money. The money will be used for the benefit of the folk of the country, and the time will be used for further examination of the great problems which it will be the duty of Parliament finally to solve.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say a word or two about the position of the hospitals and infirmaries and the increase that they have been compelled to pay?
I must apologise to the right hon. Gentleman for not specifically dealing with the points that he and others have raised because I thought that perhaps the Second Reading would be a more convenient time to review them. While I have the utmost sympathy with the desire of those institutions to have their supplies at a lower rate, I am afraid I cannot concede the main point that, if they got them at a lower rate, they would purchase more. As far as hospitals are concerned, it is exactly that case that I have tried to make again and again, and I have been defeated by the obvious answer that the hospitals would buy as much as was necessary for the needs of their patients, but that no amount of cheap milk would alter the figures.
I have every sympathy with the desire of the hospitals to get their supplies at as low a price as possible. Certainly, if any scheme could be worked out, I would support it forthwith. If not, then I am afraid we cannot solve it under this method. We must wait for the long-term Measure. We must consider these things from the point of view of cheapening supplies as well as increasing consumption, but not, I am afraid, in the Financial Resolution which I am asking the Committee to vote to-night.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman appreciate the importance of permitting hospitals and infirmaries to get milk at the price they were paying prior to the adoption of the Milk Act, 1934?
While I do not wish to detain the Committee or enter upon controversial matters, the right hon. Member will realise that, if I were to say to the producers of milk, "You must supply these institutions with your product at a price lower than that at which it is now, and at a price at which it was before it was raised by the appropriate selling organisation," they would be bound to ask, "Will the miners supply the hospitals with coal at the price at which it was before it was raised?" I am asked a specific question, and I say that
to deal with the problem merely on the lines of reason that a certain organisation should supply its products at a lower rate, inevitably brings up the case of all other organisations. They, in their turn, will say, "Will you, in your turn, undertake to supply at a cut rate?" If they are, I am certain that the agricultural community of this country will not be behind.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say when the long-term policy may be expected? I think he said something about a few months, and therefore may we expect the production of the long-term policy during the present Session?
He said that two years ago.
It would be wrong of me to prophesy in the matter, but we are only asking here for an extension of 18 months. It is clear under those conditions that we must be getting down to the frame of the long-term policy this year so as to have it ready to lay before the House in the autumn and winter of the Session which is coming. I certainly cannot promise anything this Session, but clearly on the basis of the Measure it will be necessary for us to work for the framing of the Measure this Session, so as to put it through, I hope, next Session; but I am not pledging either myself or the Party or the Leader of the House in that course.
Question put.
The Committee divided: Ayes, 213; Noes, 140.
Division No. 44.] AYES. [10.40 p.m. Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J. Brown, Col. D. C. (Hexham) Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.) Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G. Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith) Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh,W.) Albery, I. J. Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury) Courtauld, Major J. S. Anderson, Sir A. Garrett (C. of Ldn.) Browne, A. C. (Belfast, W.) Critchley, A. Aske. Sir R. W. Bull, B. B. Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C. Assheton, R. Burghley, Lord Croom-Johnson, R. P. Astor, Major Hon. J. J. (Dover) Burgin, Dr. E. L. Cross, R. H. Astor, Hon. W. W. (Fulham, E.) Butler, R. A. Crowder, J. F. E. Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Campbell, Sir E. T. Cruddas, Col. B. Beauchamp, Sir B. C. Cartland, J. R. H. Davies, C. (Montgomery) Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h) Carver, Major W. H. Davies, Major G. F. (Yeovil) Beit, Sir A. L. Cary, R. A. Denman, Hon. R. D. Bernays, R. H. Castlereagh, Viscount Dorman-Smith, Major R. H. Bird, Sir R. B. Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.) Dower, Capt. A. V. G. Blair, Sir R. Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham) Duckworth, G. A. V. (Salop) Bossom, A. C. Channon, H. Dugdale, Major T. L. Boulton, W. W. Chapman, A. (Rutherglen) Duggan, H. J. Bower, Comdr. R. T. Clarke, F. E. Duncan, J. A. L. Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B. Clarry, Sir R. G. Dunglass, Lord Braithwaite, Major A. N. Clydesdale, Marquess of Dunne, P. R. R. Briscoe, Capt. R. G Colville, Lt.-Col. D. J. Eckersley, P. T. Brocklebank, C. E. R. Cook, T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.) Edmondson, Major Sir J. Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E. Lindsay, K. M. Ropner, Colonel L. Emery, J. F. Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J. Ross, Major Sir R. D. (L'derry) Emrys-Evans, P. V. Lloyd, G. W. Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge) Erskine Hill, A. G. Loftus, P. C. Russell, A. West (Tynemouth) Everard, W. L. Lumley, Capt. L. R. Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen) Findlay, Sir E. Lyons, A. M. Salmon, Sir I. Fleming, E. L. Mabane, W. (Huddersfield) Salt, E. W. Fraser, Capt. Sir I. MacAndrew, Lt.-Col. Sir C. G. Samuel, Sir A. M. (Farnham) Fremantle, Sir F. E. McCorquodale, M. S. Samuel, M. R. A. (Putney) Ganzoni, Sir J. McEwen, Capt. H. J. F. Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir P. Gledhill. G. McKie, J. H. Severy, Servlngton Gluckstein, L. H. Macmillan, H. (Stockton-on-Tees) Scott, Lord William Goodman, Col. A. W. Macnamara, Capt. J. R. J. Shakespeare, G. H. Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral) Makins, Brig.-Gen. E. Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree) Gretton, Col. Rt. Hon. J. Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A. Gridley, Sir A. B. Maxwell, S. A. Smiles, Lieut.-Colonel Sir W. D. Grigg, Sir E. W. M. Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J. Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen) Grimston, R. V. Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth) Somervell, Sir D. B. (Crewe) Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Drake) Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest) Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Guest, Hon. I. (Brecon and Radnor) Mitchell, H. (Brentford and Chiswick) Southby, Comdr. A. R. J. Guest,Maj. Hon. O.(C'mb'rW'II,N.W.) Moreing, A. C. Spens, W. P. Gunston, Capt. D. W. Morris, J. P. (Salford, N.) Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'I'd) Hacking, Rt. Hon. D. H. Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.) Hamilton, Sir G. C. Morrison, W. S. (Cirencester) Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.) Hanbury, Sir C. Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J. Strauss, H. G. (Norwich) Hannah, I. C. Munro, P. M. Strickland, Captain W. F. Harvey, G. Neven-Spence, Maj. B. H. Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Haslam, H. C. (Horncastle) Nicolson, Hon. H. G. Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F. Heilgers, Captain F. F. A. O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh Sutcliffe, H. Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P. Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. W. G. Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby) Herbert, A. P. (Oxford U.) Orr-Ewing, I. L. Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford) Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth) Palmer, G. E. H. Titchfield, Marquess of Hills, Major Rt. Hon. J. W. (Ripon) Penny, Sir G. Tree, A. R. L. F. Holmes, J. S. Percy, Rt. Hon. Lord E. Tufnell, Lieut.-Com. R. L. Hopkinson, A. Perkins, W. R. D. Turton, R. H. Horsbrugh, Florence Peters, Dr. S. J. Wakefield, W. W. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.) Petherick, M. Walker-Smith, Sir J. Hulbert, N. J. Plckthorn, K. W. M. Wallace, Captain Euan Hume, Sir G. H. Pllkington, R. Ward, Irene (Wallsend) Hunter, T. Plugge, L. F. Warrender, Sir V. Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir T. W. H. Ponsonby, Col. C. E. Waterhouse, Captain C. Jackson, Sir H. Raikes, H. V. A. M. Willoughby de Eresby, Lord Joel, D. J. B. Ramsay, Captain A. H. M. Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir A. T. (Hitchin) Keeling, E. H. Ramsbotham, H. Windsor-dive, Lieut.-Colonel G. Kerr, H. W. (Oldham) Ramsden, Sir E. Womersley, Sir W. J. Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.) Rankin, R. Young, A. S. L. (Partick) Kimball, L. Rayner, Major R. H. Latham, Sir P. Reed, A. C. (Exeter) TELLERS FOR THE AYES — Law, R. K. (Hull, S.W.) Reid, Sir D. D. (Down) Lieut.-Colonel Sir A. Lambert Ward Levy, T. Remer, J. R. and Captain Hope. Liddall, W. S. Rlckards, G. W. (Sklpton)
NOES. Acland, Rt. Hon. Sir F. Dyke Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton) Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath) Acland, R. T. D. (Barnstaple) Day, H. Johnston, Rt. Hon. T. Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.) Dobbie, W. Jones, A. C. (Shipley) Adamson, W. M. Dunn, E. (Rother Valley) Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'Isbr.) Ede, J. C. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Ammon, C. G. Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.) Kelly, W. T. Anderson, F. (Whltchaven) Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty) Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T. Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R. Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R, T. H. Kirby, B. V. Banfield, J. W. Foot, D. M. Kirkwood, D. Barnes, A. J. Frankel, D. Lawson, J. J. Barr, J. Gallacher, W. Leach, W. Batey, J. Gardner, B. W. Lee, F. Bellenger, F. George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) Leonard, W. Benson, G. Glbbins, J. Leslie, J. R. Bevan, A. Green, W. H. (Deptford) Lunn, W. Bromfield, W. Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. Macdonald, G. (Ince) Brown, C. (Mansfield) Grenfell, D. R. McEntee, V. La T. Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (S. Ayrshire) Griffith, F. Klngsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.) McGhee, H. G. Buchanan, G. Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth) McGovern, J. Burke, W. A. Hall, G. H. (Aberdare) MacLaren, A. Cape, T. Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) Maclean, N. Charleton, H. C. Hardie, G. D. MacMillan, M. (Western Isles) Cluse, W. S. Harris, Sir P. A. MacNeill, Weir, L. Cocks, F. S. Henderson, A. (Kingswinford) Mander, G. le M. Compton, J. Hicks, E. G. Marshall, F. Cove, W. G. Holdsworth, H. Mathers, G. Cripps, Hon. Sir Stafford Holland, A. Maxton, J. Daggar, G. Hollins, A. Messer, F. Dalton, H. Hopkin, D. Milner, Major J. Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill) Jagger, J. Montague, F. Davies, D. L. (Pontypridd) Jenkins, A. (Pontypool) Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Ha'kn'y, S.) Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Rothschild, J. A. de Tinker, J. J. Muff, G. Rowson, G. Viant, S. P. Naylor, T. E. Salter, Dr. A. Walkden, A. G. Oliver, G. H. Seely, Sir H. M. Walker, J. Owen, Major G. Sexton, T. M. Watkins, F. C. Paling, W. Shinwell, E. Watson, W. McL. Parker, H. J. H. Short, A. White, H. Graham Parkinson, J. A. Silverman, S. S. Wilkinson, Ellen Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (C'thn's) Williams, E. J. (Ogmore) Potts, J. Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe) Williams, T. (Don Valley) Price, M. P. Smith, E. (Stoke) Windsor, W. (Hull, C.) Pritt, D. N. Smith, T. (Normanton) Woods, G. S. (Finsbury) Quibell, J. D. Sorensen, R. W. Young, Sir R. (Newton) Rathbone, Eleanor (English Univ's.) Stephen, C. Richards, R. (Wrexham) Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-Ie-Sp'ng) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Riley, B. Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.) Mr. Groves and Mr. Whiteley. Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Brom.) Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)
Resolution to be reported To-morrow.
Unemployment (Northern Ireland Agreement) [Money]
Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 69.
[Captain BOUENE in the Chair.]
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That it is expedient—
10.50 p.m.
The Financial Resolution, if it is approved by the Committee, will be the foundation of a Bill which will be introduced in order to give statutory effect to an agreement which has been reached between the Treasuries of the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland. The agreement which forms the basis of this Resolution is to try to assimilate the burden of unemployment falling upon the two Exchequers. Northern Ireland is a part of the United Kingdom which has its own peculiar problems of unemployment, as have other parts of the United Kingdom. Where you have industrial employment depending on one or two great industries you have a peculiar risk of unemployment and a peculiarly heavy burden in times of depression. Northern Ireland, where people are mainly engaged in agricultural pursuits, is for its industrial employment largely dependent on two main industries, shipbuilding and linen manufacture, and in recent years both of these staple industries have felt the burden of unemployment very severely.
There is this difference between the position in Northern Ireland and that in other parts of the United Kingdom, such as Durham and South Wales. In other parts of the United Kingdom the burden of unemployment which falls upon the Unemployment Fund of Great Britain is eased and helped by the contributions of more fortunate areas in the United Kingdom. Thus Durham and South Wales are not called on to pay their Own particular share of unemployment. The whole thing is borne on the Unemployment Fund of Great Britain and the number and diversity of our industries enable the fund to be so fortified that the burden is easily carried. The situation is quite different in Northern Ireland. Apart from the two industries I have mentioned there does not exist a body of different industries which would enable the burden to be carried by the fund of Northern Ireland.
They could join up with the South.
Owing to the provisions of the Act of 1920 Northern Ireland has no direct recourse to the Unemployment Fund of Great Britain. She has her own Unemployment Fund. There is no way of spreading the risk of unemployment in Northern Ireland equitably over the whole of the-United Kingdom except by some such agreement as this, which seeks to equate the burden falling upon the two Exchequers caused by unemployment. I think there can be no doubt in any quarter of the Committee that some such equation of the unemployment burden is desirable. Apart from the fact that no one in the Committee would like to see workmen in Northern Ireland suffer reduced standards of unemployment benefit because of the separation of the two burdens it will be quite plain, on a moment's consideration, that if you were to have different standards of unemployment benefit prevailing in Great Britain and Northern Ireland—both parts of the United Kingdom—besides the injustice to the residents of Northern Ireland it would have very noxious industrial repercussions.
Take as an example shipbuilding, a great industry which is carried on both in Great Britain and Northern Ireland. If you have lower insurance benefits in Northern Ireland than in Great Britain there will be a tendency for workmen to shun the district where the unemployment benefit is lower and congregate in places where it is higher. That is to say, assuming that the same benefits were not available in Northern Ireland, you might easily, indeed almost certainly, have shipbuilders flocking from Belfast to the Clyde. [HON. MEMBERS: "What for?"] In order, if they fell out of work, to get higher benefits. Mobility is a very good thing if men move to get work but it is a very different thing if they move in order to get benefit. If one considers the whole industrial position of Great Britain and Northern Ireland one sees that it is impossible to separate them in this respect whether you take the management which is much the same in Great Britain and Northern Ireland or whether you take the trade unions. The men in these industries belong to trade unions that are organised upon a national scale and those trade unions would pay exactly the same benefits to their members in Northern Ireland as they pay in other parts of the United Kingdom. It is surely clear that if you were to introduce a system which compelled payment on a differential scale of benefit in Northern Ireland and in Great Britain, you might have repercussions upon that national organisation of industry both from the employers' side and the trade union side.
I hope I have satisfied the Committee on that, which is the main reason for the Resolution—that is to say that the Agreement is designed to assist Northern Ireland to maintain standards of unemployment insurance no better than but no worse than those obtaining in other parts of the United Kingdom. I have mentioned the peculiarly difficult position as regards employment in Northern Ireland being dependent in the main upon two industries but there is another reason and that is the taxation position in Northern Ireland. Under the Act of 1920 a certain financial relationship was set up between the Exchequer of the United Kingdom and that of Northern Ireland. I need not trouble the Committee with details but the position at the moment is this. The two main sources of revenue in Northern Ireland as in other parts of the United Kingdom, namely Income Tax and Super-tax on the one hand, and Customs and Excise on the other are in fact collected by the Treasury of the United Kingdom and, after certain deductions, that portion collected in Northern Ireland is paid back to Northern Ireland for her own use. The effect is that 89 per cent. of the taxation revenue of Northern Ireland is imposed by and collected by this House. It is only a very small part of the revenue levied in Northern Ireland, which she has any power to vary at all.
If you take these two elements into consideration, namely, the unemployment situation which is peculiar to Northern Ireland and the taxation position, the combined effect is this. Whereas the employment position is such as to create a burden on Northern Ireland out of proportion to the burden carried by the United Kingdom, the financial arrangements between the two Exchequers preclude Northern Ireland from having any margin out of which she can fill the gap and thus replace what is spent on unemployment. It is because of that combined unemployment and taxation position that some such agreement is essential. This is the third agreement of this character to be presented to Parliament. The first was in 1926, and the second was made in 1928 and was presented to and ratified by Parliament in 1929. I need not bother the Committee with the 1929 agreement at this moment, because it merely continued that of 1926, with certain modifications to which I shall refer in the proper place. I think I can best serve the Committee at this stage by indicating the difference between the agreement of which we now seek ratification and the previous agreements which were in force.
A White Paper has been issued on this matter. I venture to express the opinion that the more complicated mathematical formulae which are set out in this agreement are better appreciated by the eye than by the ear, and if hon. Members wish to follow the matter closely they will find it easier to do so, in my respectful judgment, in the White Paper than in anything that I can say. I will, however, indicate the main reason why we seek to vary an agreement which has been in force since 1926. The reason for that variation is to be found in two events which have taken place since 1929 and which have profoundly altered the basis on which the agreements were originally made. The first of these events was the Act of 1934, which set up the scheme of unemployment assistance. The agreement previously in force did not contemplate such a thing, and I may say that Northern Ireland has followed that Act by adopting the same system. The effect of this is that we have to make in the new agreement provision for unemployment assistance as well as unemployment insurance.
The second event which has taken place since 1929 is, perhaps, more fundamental in its effect upon the old agreement, and it was the decision reached in 1931 to meet the cost of transitional benefit not out of borrowing, but by direct Exchequer contributions. That was a decision come to by the Government of the United Kingdom, having regard to matters affecting the United Kingdom as a whole, but, as I shall try to show the Committee it rendered the agreement then in force quite valueless as regards making an effective contribution to the burden of Northern Ireland's unemployment. Under the 1926 and 1929 agreements to which I refer, and which are still in force until the Bill to which this Resolution is preliminary becomes law, before Northern Ireland could qualify for a contribution from our Exchequer, she had to pay from her Exchequer into her Unemployment Fund a sum which was the population proportion of the pay- ments made by the Exchequer of Great Britain into the Unemployment Fund.
The population of Northern Ireland has been about 2.8 per cent. of that of the United Kingdom as a whole, and it meant that before Northern Ireland could qualify for any contribution at all from the Exchequer towards her Unemployment Fund, she had to pay from her Exchequer into her own fund a sum equal to 2.8 per cent. of whatever was paid by the British Exchequer into the British Unemployment Fund. That meant that for every £1,000,000 contributed by the Exchequer of the United Kingdom to the Unemployment Fund of Great Britain, Northern Ireland, before she could qualify for any assistance from the Exchequer, had to have contributed from her national Exchequer to her own Unemployment Fund £28,000. Prior to 1931,when the payments from our Exchequer into the Unemployment Fund were in the neighbourhood of £19,000,000 to £20,000,000 a year, it was easy for Northern Ireland to show that she had qualified, but when suddenly, in 1931, the order of our payments into the Unemployment Fund rose at once from £20,000,000 to £70,000,000, that meant that there were very many more millions, £50,000,000 more, for Northern Ireland to put her £28,000 against before she could get a penny of contribution. That is the main thing that has happened.
If hon. Members will consult the White Paper and look at page 3, they will see there a table which sets out the contributions made from 1925 to 1934 by the Exchequer of the United Kingdom to Northern Ireland, and they will find that the payments were substantial until 1932, when they suddenly dropped to nil, and they have been nil ever since. We have not in the last three years contributed a penny to Northern Ireland by way of supporting her Unemployment Insurance Fund, and the reason for that is the vast increase in our own Exchequer payments. The effect was to defeat the object with which the original agreements were made with Northern Ireland. To the credit of that country, be it said that they have maintained throughout these years their unemployment benefits unimpaired. They have done it with the greatest difficulty and in some cases by using reserves which cannot be used again, and I think the Committee is agreed that it is necessary, for us to enable Northern Ireland to maintain the same standard of benefits as we do, to revise the agreement so that its original effect is actually carried out, in view of these altered circumstances, namely, the inclusion of unemployment assistance and, secondly, the vast growth of the United Kingdom Exchequer payments into the Insurance Fund.
If hon. Members will turn to the actual agreement, I can briefly summarise what is set out there. The agreement is in the form of an appendix to the White Paper. Clause 1 lays down procedure for the ascertainment of what are called the "insurance proportion" and the "assistance proportion" between the two parts of the United Kingdom, and then Clause 2 says when parity will be reached between the two funds. Clause 3 is a provision which deals with a matter that I ought to mention. When the first agreement was made in 1926, Northern Ireland had accumulated an excess debt on her fund of £3,424,434. This debt was placed to a suspense account and left on the shelf for the moment, and parity between the fund of this country and that of Northern Ireland was calculated with regard to the current account of Northern Ireland. In 1929 it was provided that this suspense account should be dealt with, and the way in which it was proposed to deal with it was that the debt should be reduced to £3,000,000 by 31st March, 1929, and that £100,000 should be written off each succeeding 31st March. That leaves at present a balance of £2,400,000, and Clause 3 of the Agreement provides that £40,000 is to be repaid by the Northern Ireland Unemployment Fund each year.
Clause 4 provides that if the Northern Ireland payments to the Unemployment Fund and the Unemployment Assistance Fund exceed their proportion, the United Kingdom Exchequer will pay 75 per cent. of the excess. Any excess that may accrue in future is left as to 25 per cent. of it on the shoulders of Northern Ireland. When one considers the position there and the vast sums that may be involved, that is a heavy burden which should not be disregarded. Clause 4 contains two provisions. This is the Clause which lays down machinery and the criteria which we observe before payment is made by the Exchequer of the United Kingdom to that of Northern Ireland. The main point to which I wish to direct attention is that whereas before, the payment necessary was calculated upon the proportion obtaining be-ween the total population of the two countries, that population basis is now abandoned, and the criterion is now that between the insured and assistance populations of both countries. Clause 5 contains a reciprocal agreement which means that if in any year the payments from the Northern Ireland Exchequer to these two funds are less than the sum of its Unemployment Insurance and Unemployment Assistance proportions, the difference between the two amounts will be paid to the Exchequer of the United Kingdom. That is a proposal put in in order to secure that if those happy days for Northern Ireland come when they are in a better employment position than we are, and the funds are in consequence more healthy than ours the balance will be paid to the United Kingdom Exchequer. In that happy event, it is not 75 per cent. that will be refunded, but the whole amount. I do not think I need explain the remaining provisions. If hon. Members have any point which they wish to raise I will try to deal with it. I think I have said enough to explain the Agreement, broadly, and I commend it to the Committee.
11.15 p.m.
After the lucid explanation of the Financial Secretary the Committee will agree. I think, that if we were to attempt to-night to Debate this Financial Resolution, and to rival him in clarity of explanation, we should stay here for many hours. We do not want to detain the Committee very long, although this is a very important agreement, and Members of previous Parliaments will know that previous agreements have been the subject not only of much controversy, but sometimes of all-night Sittings. This is the third agreement of this kind. They are due to the fact that the North of Ireland, following on the Act of 1920, got responsibility for their own fund and complete control of it. The North of Ireland thought that in getting complete control of their own fund they were doing well for themselves, but suddenly it was discovered that they were what we call to-day a special area, that they depended on one or two industries and that the incidence of unemployment there was very heavy.
It was first discovered that they were in trouble in 1926 and they came to this House and asked for some financial support. The House was very loath to give that money. A question of principle was involved, the principle being that Northern Ireland had a separate fund under its own administration, with no supervision, as I understand, from our side and yet we were asked to give this money annually. Since 1926 they have had about £500,000 per year from this country. We are told in the White Paper:
The case could be put this way: It has been discovered, since this fund was put upon a separate footing, that the North of Ireland is very much in the position of, say, Wales or Durham, as far as its industries are concerned. They have unemployment figures which are even higher than the figures in those special areas. It is a distressed area. The North of Ireland is to be counted as a part of the United Kingdom, separate from the South of Ireland. The position is that it is only another industrial division. There are a a number of industrial divisions in this Kingdom and the North of Ireland is simply another of them. Wales and Durham probably draw from the fund to a greater extent than they pay in contributions, and they, and any other such area, are subject to very rigid supervision.. It is the least to ask that there should be the same supervision over the administration of the North of Ireland. I shall not labour that point too much. If we are to keep paying on this scale, without too many questions being asked, the logic of the situation suggests that there is some danger. Suppose the local authorities of Wales or Durham were in the same parlous condition. I wonder whether the Government would be in the same frame of mind of giving money without asking questions and without supervision of the administration of the money such as is shown to-night.
Upon the answer to these questions depends our line of action. We do not wish to continue this Debate for too long, but it is a great pity that a separate day could not have been devoted to this Agreement. Our Debates on the subject were acrimonious in 1926 and they were worse in 1929. We have no wish to do othen than help the workmen of the North of Ireland to get the same benefit as is received by the workmen in this part of the kingdom, and for the same contributions. We think the Government ought to have an answer to the question as to the supervision to be exercised over this fund, and as to how many more agreements of this nature we are to be asked to make without having a statement of the full commitments, as is the case to-night. I hope that when the Second Reading comes there will be a real opportunity for a Debate on this matter and that the House will insist upon very definite answers to the questions that are put.
11.24 p.m.
I find myself very much in agreement with the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken. He said that the Debates in 1929 were acrimonious; probably they were. I was in the House at that time and took part in those Debates, and might recall to the hon. Gentleman that the representatives of Northern Ireland pointed out that it was a mistake for a separate fund to exist between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. There was a reason for that. At the time the Act of 1920 was passed, unemployment insurance covered only a comparatively small area of the workmen in this country. The scope of unemployment insurance had immensely extended since 1920, but in the financial arrangement under the Act of 1920 no special arrangement was made for unemployment insurance. When, later on, the Colwyn Committee was appointed to deal with the financial relations between Northern Ireland and Great Britain, the question of unemployment insurance was not considered by them, but was left to be considered otherwise. When we alleged in 1926 that the funds ought never to have been separated, that was agreed to by the then Leader of the party opposite.
Who was he?
One of them was the Noble Lord who is now Lord Snowden, and another was one whose name everyone would treat with great respect—the late Mr. William Graham. Apparently it was considered that a re-amalgamation of the funds would give rise to great difficulties. In these circumstances the agreement of 1926 was entered into, and during that period the Northern Ireland Government raised no objection whatsoever to the amalgamation of the funds, and were prepared to surrender any right they had to the administration of unemployment insurance. I think I am right in saying that, before the agreements of 1926 and 1929 were entered into, the administration of the fund in Northern Ireland was investigated by civil servants from this side, who reported that they thought that the administration was fair and reasonable.
I only wanted to point out that we are very much in agreement with the friendly speech of the hon. Gentleman opposite, and, if this amalgamation of the funds were proposed, we should certainly vote in favour of it. If you try to segregate one area of the United Kingdom, it is impossible for that one area to bear the burden of unemployment insurance. As in the case of all other insurance, you must spread the risk over a sufficient area to make it actuarially sound. Northern Ireland is not big enough and has not a sufficient variety of trade to make unemployment an actuarially sound proposition. In these circumstances the agreement was entered into, to enable the fund to be brought into something of the same relationship with the Unemployment Insurance Fund in Great Britain as obtains in the case of areas like Wales and various places in the North of England, which, undoubtedly, cannot pay their own way. I would ask the Committee to show the same spirit of good will as the hon. Gentleman opposite has shown, and let us have this agreement, leaving any minor points to be debated on the Bill.
11.30 p.m.
If I can get an assurance from the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury it might help to shorten the Debate. There is a Bill to come up for Second Reading. If the right hon. and gallant Gentleman can assure us that it will be taken at a reasonable hour, and that a reasonable time will be given to its discussion, I shall not be keen to over-prolong this Debate.
11.31 p.m.
I had no notice that a question of this nature was going to be put to me. The Bill has to be passed into law by 31st March. That will not give us very much time. Further, 31st March being the end of the financial year, there is a great deal of financial business that has to be passed before that date. Consequently the programme is somewhat overcrowded, and it is difficult to fit in all the work that has to be done by that date. I shall bear in mind what the hon. Member has said, and I recognise the acclamation which his remarks received in different quarters of the Committee. I realise that the Committee would wish that the Second Heading should be taken at the most convenient hour that the Government can find to take it. I cannot give a definite assurance exactly what time it will be brought up, but I will bear the hon. Member's remarks in mind and do my best to meet the wishes of the Committee.
11.32 p.m.
On the general Resolution, I agree with the two points made by the Financial Secretary and the point made by the hon. Member for Chester-le-Street (Mr. Lawson). I was surprised to find how quickly the House of Commons alters its opinions. The other day we adopted a scheme of insur- ance for agricultural workers—a separate scheme with separate rates of benefit. The House of Commons said it was good to have a separate scheme with separate rates of benefit, and it would harm no one. To-night we are told that it will be bad. I agree that it would be bad. I think differential rates of benefit, whether for agricultural workers or for North of Ireland workers, are altogether bad. If the benefits are low, the workers will be driven into the industrial districts. The argument on which the Government founded so much the other night has already been met by the Financial Secretary. One of the questions raised by the Resolution is that we are handing over public money without any real control as to the spending of it. The scheme does not contain a single word that compels the Northern Government to pay the same rates of benefit. It is true that the money is granted to enable them to do it, but there is not a word to say that they must pay 17s. for a man and 3s. for a child. The Northern Ireland Government could pass its own Bill to-morrow, altering the standard of benefit and lowering the rates. This does not interfere with the Treaty, which gives to Northern Ireland the right to make its own Act. This brings nothing into being
May I call the attention of the hon. Gentleman to Clause 7?
The Government here can reconsider the matter, but there is nothing up to that moment which compels them to do it. Frankly, I do not want anybody in Northern Ireland, no matter to which political party they may belong, to be treated differently. I cannot understand the figures which are given in the White Paper as to unemployment in Northern Ireland. The Government of Northern Ireland, while pleading here to-day for equality as between one shipbuilding district and another, have not themselves given the same treatment in respect of other districts. The hon. Member nods his head.
I shook it, I did not nod it.
You have the credit facilities in Northern Ireland. [An HON. MEMBER: "Have not you?"] Be courteous and listen to the point. You ask for equality to-day between, one re- presentative and another, but when it comes to a question of contracts you use your credit in order to get a contract at the expense of other districts. I have refused to enter into the question of competition as to who should build, and I cannot see prosperity coming to my district at the expense of some other district. I dislike the idea that, while you are claiming equality for the treatment of the unemployed, in ordinary competitive business, you are claiming national money and credit here.
May I point out to the hon. Member that the subsidy which we passed the other day is not applicable to shipbuilding in Northern Ireland?
It is true that the tramp shipping subsidy does rot apply, but there is only one firm in Northern Ireland. There used to be two firms, one of which did go in for the building of tramp ships. To-day the question of tramp shipping has little relationship to Northern Ireland, because the company there does not go in for that class of work, but the same company goes in for that kind of work on the Clyde, so that they will receive the tramp shipping subsidy.
I agree that the hon. Gentleman was interrupted, but I think that he is now getting rather far away from the Resolution.
The point I am making is a valid one, that if they claim equality in regard to national credit, at least in these matters, there ought also to be some form of equality. As to the point which annoys some of us, I agree that the firm in question should have remained under one control, but that does not matter now, as we are dealing with facts as they are to-day. Take Southern Ireland. [An HON. MEMBER: "Not an analogy."] They are part of the British Empire, and as such part of the whole of our people. We have a feeling—we may be wrong—that if Southern Ireland were in a position to come to this Parliament and ask for money in order that their nationals would not be put into competition with others, the Government would not grant it. It would not be refused on the basis of right or wrong, but on the basis possibly that this Government does not like the turn of politics in Southern Ireland. While we are sitting here tonight, children are living under terrible conditions—
The hon. Member must keep in order.
Our case is that a differentiation is being made. The Government of Northern Ireland follow more or less the line of this Government; they are obedient Servants. If another Government to-morrow took another line and not the line adopted by the Government to-day, the Government of Northern Ireland would not be treated in the same way that they are being treated now. We shall not divide on the Resolution, but we shall raise this and other issues on Second Reading. I have only raised one point. We are giving them money to run the means test; what we call transitional benefit. The general practice in Scotland is that if a man who is on transitional benefit commits a fraud and is sentenced, they do not usually reclaim the money when he has finished his sentence, because the man is unemployed and has a bare subsistence allowance. If they took anything from him they would lessen his means of subsistence. I know of a case in Northern Ireland where they have deducted the money from his means test allowance. That would not be done in Scotland. I have written to the Home Secretary and received a civil reply; but I have no check in regard to this matter. I cannot approach an official. I have worked in Belfast and have great affection for the town and like the kindly folk there, when they are left alone; but I contend that we have no right to hand over vast sums to another Government without some right of control and criticism.
11.44 p.m.
I should like to ask a few questions. Attention should be drawn to the fact that this is a grant of money to Northern Ireland. All the trouble we have with Southern Ireland is a monetary question. If the Government would just deal in the same sympathetic way with monetary questions as they affect Southern Ireland—
We really cannot go into questions affecting Southern Ireland.
I will leave that. I want to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer a question. A statement has been made to me by several big shipbuilders in this country that, owing to this grant, the Government of Northern Ireland are able to subsidise in one form or another the shipbuilders in Belfast, with the result that they are able to cut prices for building ships more than English and Scottish shipyards are able to do.
Do I understand the hon. Member to say that if this grant is carried it will enable the Government of Northern Ireland to make that advance? If not, he is out of order.
The question I am putting is surely plain enough.
No doubt the hon. Member's question is perfectly plain, but as he has put it it has so far nothing to do with this Financial Resolution.
I am taking exception to the granting of this money. It is going to be used for the purpose to which I have drawn attention, and, if it is so used, shipbuilders in this country tell me that in order to compete with the favourable position which Belfast shipyards will get, they will have to lower the standard of life of shipbuilders in this country.
The Resolution deals solely with the question of unemployment insurance in Northern Ireland. The hon. Member's question is no doubt in order, but not on this occasion. He must find a suitable occasion on which to raise it.
With all due respect, I do not see how you manage to give that Ruling. I consider that I have a perfect right as a Member of this House to raise my voice and point out how I think this money is going to be used to the detriment of workers in this country. This is our money, which we are giving to another country, to another Government, and I hold that I have a right to an answer to my question, whether the statement which is made to me by shipbuilders in this country is true, that this money which we are granting is used adversely to the workers of this country. Surely that is a proper question.
11.50 p.m.
I want to protest against the way this Debate has had to be hurried owing to the hour of the night. The Financial Secretary apologised several times for having to deal somewhat scantily with an important matter confided to his care, and I am not impressed with the way in which the Patronage Secretary replied to the appeal of the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan). It is the Government's fault that they are in this position. The hon. Member for Spennymoor (Mr. Batey) offered them another fortnight after Christmas before we dispersed.
That does not arise on this occasion.
Our Debates would have been carried on under better conditions to-night if the offer then made had been accepted. We are dealing with a matter that involves the most delicate relationships with another Parliament, and every hon. Member who has spoken has had to express his regret that he could not address himself to the matter in language that would enable him to be sure that the susceptibilities of Northern Ireland would not be offended. Every night we have the Eleven o'Clock Rule suspended, and it is too much to ask in a new Parliament and a new Session that we should have to conduct our business in this way.
11.53 p.m.
I am much obliged to the Committee for its reception of this Resolution. The main question that has been put to me was concerned with the supervision of the administration of these funds in Northern Ireland. I think the answer to the hon. Member for Chester-le-Street (Mr. Lawson) was contained in the speech of the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan). The fact is that these funds are separate under the 1920 Act. I think it can be taken with confidence by the Committee that the Government of Northern Ireland intend to maintain the same standards as are maintained here. On the question raised by the hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirk-wood), I can only say that I have never heard the statement, and I have no reason to believe that it is true. If the hon. Member asks me to make inquiries I will be glad to do so, but so far as I know there is no foundation for the statement.
Question put, and agreed to.
Resolved,
"That it is expedient—
Resolution to be reported To-morrow.
Orders of the Day
Pensions (Governors of Dominions, Etc.) Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
11.56 p.m.
May I move, "That the Debate be now adjourned"?
The proposal to proceed with this Bill now is taking advantage of the decency of the House and I say, frankly, that had I known the Government were going ahead with this Bill to-night I would not have acceded so readily to the two previous Resolutions. The Debate on those could well have been continued but, we have been very decent to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury and I hope he is not going to ask us to go on with this Bill to-night.
There is no wish on the part of the Government to keep the House sitting until an unduly late hour. I would merely point out that this is a matter which has been before the Housed already. I recognise that there is not the same urgency in this case as there was in the previous case, but we thought that as there had been considerable discussion en this matter before Christmas, it would have been possible after a short discussion to dispose of it to-night. As I say, however, we have no wish to keep the House sitting late, and we are prepared to accept the Motion.
Ordered, "That the Debate be now adjourned."—[ Captain Margesson. ]
Debate to be resumed To-morrow.
Education [Money]
Resolution reported,
"That for the purposes of any Act of the present Session relating to education n is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any sums by which any education grants payable under any Act are increased by reason of expenditure incurred under the said Act of the present Session by local education authorities on or in connection with grants for non-provided schools (being grants for the purposes of the education of children who have attained the age of eleven years), or on, or in connection with, compensation to teachers at non-provided schools for which grants are so made by such authorities."
Resolution agreed to.
Government of India Act, 1935 (Constitution of Sind Order)
Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [7th February],
"That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, in pursuance of the provisions of Section 309 of the Government of India Act, 1935, praying that the Government of India (Constitution of Sind) Order be made in the form of the draft laid before Parliament on 20th January, 1936."— [ Mr. Butler. ]
Question put, and agreed to.
Address to be presented by Privy Councillors or Members of His Majesty's Household.
Government of India Act, 1935 (Constitution of Orissa Order)
Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [7th February],
"That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, in pursuance of the provisions of Section 309 of the Government of India Act, 1935, praying that the Government of India (Constitution of Orissa) Order be made in the form of the draft laid before Parliament on 20th January, 1936."—[ Mr. Butler. ]
Question put, and agreed to.
Address to be presented by Privy Councillors or Members of His Majesty's Household.
Water Resources and Supplies
Resolution of the House [4th February] relative to the appointment of a Joint Committee on Water Resources and Supplies, which was ordered to be communicated to the Lords, and the Lords Message [12th February] signifying their concurrence in the said Resolution, read.
Ordered,
"That a Select Committee of Seven Members be appointed to join with a Committee to be appointed by the Lords to consider and report on measures for the better conservation and organisation of water resources and supplies in England and Wales."
Ordered,
"That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers, and records."
Ordered,
"That Three be the quorum."
Ordered,
"That the Minutes of the Evidence taken before the Select Committee appointed to join with a Committee of the House of Lords on Water Resources and Supplies in the last Session of Parliament be referred to the Committee." —[ Sir G. Penny. ]
Message to the Lords to acquaint them therewith and to request them to appoint an equal number of Lords to join with the Committee appointed by this House.
Committee nominated of—Mr. David Evans, Mr. Stanley Holmes, Sir William Jenkins, Major Mills, Colonel Sir Edward Ruggles-Brise, Sir Arthur Michael Samuel, and Miss Ward.—[ Sir G. Penny. ]
Refreshment Rooms and Lavatories
Resolution of the House [12th December] relative to the appointment of a Joint Committee on Refreshment Rooms and Lavatories, which was ordered to be communicated to the Lords, and the Lords Message [18th December] signifying their concurrence in the said Resolution, read.
Ordered,
"That a Select Committee of Six Members be appointed to join with a Committee to be appointed by the Lords to consider and report upon the accommodation for Refreshment Rooms and Lavatories in the Palace of Westminster."
Ordered,
"That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers, and records."
Ordered,
"That Three be the quorum."
Ordered,
"That the Minutes of the Evidence taken before the Select Committee appointed to join with a Committee of the House of Lords on Refreshment Rooms and Lavatories in the last Session of Parliament, be referred to the Committee."—[ Sir G. Penny. ]
Message to the Lords to acquaint them therewith and to request them to appoint an equal number of Lords to join with the Committee appointed by this House.
Committee nominated of,—Major Lloyd George, Mr. George Harvey, Mr. Maclay, Mr. Neil Maclean, Sir Hugh O'Neill, and Sir Isidore Salmon.—[ Sir G. Penny. ]
Consolidation Bills
Ordered,
"That so much of the Lords! Message [12th February] as relates to the appoint- ment of a Committee on Consolidation Bills be now considered."— [ Sir G. Penny. ]
So much of the Lords Message considered accordingly.
Ordered,
"That a Select Committee of Six Members be appointed to join with the Committee appointed by the Lords to consider all Consolidation Bills in the present Session."
Ordered,
"That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers, and records."
Ordered,
"That Three be the quorum."— [ Sir G. Penny. ]
Message to the Lords to acquaint them therewith.
Committee nominated of,—Mr. Clement Davies, Mr.. Ernest Evans, Captain Gunston, Major Milner, Mr. Ross Taylor, and Sir R. W. Smith.—[ Sir G. Penny. ]
It being after Half-past Eleven of the Clock upon Monday evening, Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned at Two Minutes after Twelve o'clock.