House of Commons
Thursday, February 20, 1936
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock,Mr. SPEAKERin the Chair.
Private Business
Wolverhampton Corporation Bill (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till Monday next.
York Gas Bill (by Order),
Read a Second time, and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Bury and District Joint Hospital District) Bill,
Reported, with Amendments [Provisional Order confirmed].
Bill, as amended, to be considered To-morrow.
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Chester and Derby) Bill,
Reported, with Amendments [Provisional Order confirmed].
Bill, as amended, to be considered To-morrow.
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (North East Lindsey Joint Hospital District) Bill,
Reported, without Amendment [Provisional Order confirmed].
Bill to be read the Third time Tomorrow.
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (South Staffordshire Joint Small-pox Hospital District) Bill,
Reported, without Amendment [Provisional Order confirmed].
Bill to be read the Third time Tomorrow.
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Bedford Joint Hospital District) Bill,
Reported without Amendment [Provisional Order confirmed].
Bill to be read the Third time Tomorrow.
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Mid-Sussex Joint Hospital District) Bill,
Reported without Amendment [Provisional Order confirmed].
Bill to be read the Third time To-morrow.
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Saint Albans Joint Hospital District) Bill,
Reported without Amendment [Provisional Order confirmed].
Bill to be read the Third time To-morrow.
Oral Answers to Questions
Unemployment
Southwark
asked the Minister of Labour whether any application was made by the relieving officer of the Borough of Southwark to the Walworth Road (Borough) Employment Exchange for suitable persons for service in the recent General Election; and can he state the number of names that were submitted and the number selected or engaged for such service?
Application was not made to the Exchange for persons required for this employment in the Borough of Southwark, and consequently no names were submitted.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are many unemployed workers in Southwark who would have been capable of performing those duties?
I understand that an offer was made by the Exchange to supply suitable persons for this employment, but it was declined on the ground that numerous applications had been received direct from persons the majority of whom had served at previous elections.
Can the right hon. Gentleman in future recommend that unemployed men shall be given preference for this work?
The hon. Member will see from my answer that we have done what we can.
Benefit
asked the Minister of Labour whether he will inquire into the circumstances whereby a seaman, J. Callaghan, was refused unemployment benefit at Barry, Glamorgan, on the ground that he had refused employment on the steamship "Nella," whereas, when he presented himself to the doctor, he was refused examination because he had not got the form, P.C. 5, which had been refused him as he had not got £1 to pay the trade union contributions demanded of him?
This claim was considered by a fully constituted court of referees and unanimously disallowed. I am sending the hon. Member a copy of the report of the proceedings.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his Department sent out a letter in which they say that Mr. Callaghan was present at the hearing of his case and gave personal evidence? It appeared that he was in arrears with his subscription to the Sailors and Firemen's Union. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his Department sent out a letter to this effect, and will he inform the House that, while it is permissible for a union to expel a member for non-payment of dues or to try to prevent his getting a job, it is not permissible to refuse a man unemployment benefit because he is in debt to his union?
I understand that in this case all firemen must be members of the National Sailors and Firemen's Union. This man was in arrear to the extent of 35s. and he was required to pay 10s. of it, and he could have had an advance note of 35s. It has been considered by the court of referees, and I have no further power.
When did the Minister of Labour become responsible for collecting dues for the union?
The answer is that we are not.
I want to know why this man was refused benefit.
The hon. Member had better read the proceedings, which I am sending him.
I will raise the question on the Adjournment.
asked the Minister of Labour whether he will consider introducing amendments to the Regulations governing the payment of unemployment benefit whereby workers in the building trade, who normally lose an average of two months' work per year through bad weather conditions, shall not have to wait the normal six days before qualifying for benefit nor have to be stopped three days in one week before qualifying?
The conditions for the receipt of unemployment benefit to which the hon. Member refers are of general application, and I have no power to modify them in the case of any particular industry.
Is it not possible to make new Regulations which would meet this demand?
It would depend entirely on whether it was thought better to spend the money in this way or in some other way.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in certain other countries provisions are made that, quite irrespective of weather conditions, the men are protected and materials used that allow the workers regularly to do a full week's work and earn a full week's pay?
asked the Minister of Labour how many claims for benefit have been before the court of referees for Leigh, Atherton, and Tyldesley during 1935; and the number of claims allowed and the number disallowed?
I am having the figures extracted, and will circulate a statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT as soon as they are available.
asked the Minister of Labour the number of claims for unemployment benefit that have been submitted to the court of referees during 1935, how many have been granted, and how many have been disallowed.
The number of claims for insurance benefit or unemeployment allowances considered by courts of referees in Great Britain during 1935 was 422,671, of which 115,498 were allowed and 307,173 disallowed. The foregoing figures are exclusive of ( a ) cases considered under the trade dispute disqualification, as to which statistics are not available showing the total number of claims concerned, and ( b ) claims by persons already entitled to benefit, for an increase in the rate of benefit in respect of dependants.
Exchange (Great Harwood)
asked the Minister of Labour whether the new employment exchange under construction at Great Harwood will have a larger accommodation than the present one?
The new building as a whole will be larger. The superficial area of the present waiting rooms is greater but much of it is ineffective owing to bad lay-out and other disadvantages.
In view of the fact that the Minister's only criterion for the number of days on which the unemployed have to sign on is the size of the Exchange building, is it not a fact that when this Exchange is in operation the people in Great Harwood will have to sign on more days a week because the building is bigger?
I think the hon. and gallant Gentleman is under a misapprehension. It will be a new building specially designed, much superior to the old one, which was a school only occupied part-time.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman remember that he told me himself some time ago that the size of the building was the only criterion?
I think there is a misapprehension there.
Attendance (Exchanges)
asked the Minister of Labour the number of days a week the unemployed are required to sign on at the Exchanges in the following towns, respectively, Blackburn, Burnley, Accrington, Padiham, Clitheroe, and Great Harwood?
The answer is two days a week at the first five Exchanges and three days a week at the last.
Can the right hon. Gentleman see any fairness in that, that in five towns within a few miles of each other the signing-on is two days a week and in the sixth town three days a week, and will he alter this?
The whole question of attendance is being carefully considered by a special committee, and I cannot anticipate its conclusions.
Can the right hon. Gentleman defend that sort of thing?
South Wales
asked the Minister of Labour whether he has considered the communication addressed to him by the honourable Member for Carmarthen regarding the suggestions put forward recently by Professor Marquand, of Cardiff, for dealing with the special area of South Wales; and whether he will take some action to carry out these suggestions for the amelioration of the conditions in South Wales?
I have received a communication from the hon. Member on this subject, and I have drawn the attention of the Commissioner for Special Areas (England and Wales) to the matter.
Assistance
asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that James Lloyd Washington, county Durham, was refused assistance by the officer of the Unemployment Assistance Board and has been compelled to enter the institution under the area public assistance committee, so that he has become a charge upon the local rates although he is an unemployed man; that this man has a wife and child who have been deprived of their allowance from the board; what steps he proposes to take about this matter; and whether he can assure the local authority that there will be no repetition of this kind of incident? Mr. E. BROWN: I am informed by the Unemployment Assistance Board that owing to a change in the circumstances of the household to which James Lloyd belonged his allowance was reduced to the sum payable to his separated wife and that this decision was maintained after he left that household because his action in doing so was not regarded as bona fide. The decision was confirmed by the appeal tribunal. Soon afterwards he applied for admission to a public assistance institution and when he was admitted the allowance in respect of his separated wife was necessarily discontinued by the board in accordance with the requirements of the law. The matter is not one in which I have any authority to intervene, and with regard to the last part of the question I would point out that the board is bound to deal with each case according to its particular circumstances, and therefore it is not possible for me to give any general assurance as to the board's decisions in particular cases.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the public assistance committee have been very seriously disturbed about this case? Is there not something gravely wrong with the law when an agent of the board can take such action as practically compels a man to go into the workhouse?
As the hon. Gentleman knows from correspondence on the matter, it raises a very difficult point of principle affecting the bona fides of applicants, which is one of a number of points now under consideration between the board and myself.
asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that the Unemployment Assistance Board in the Mansfield area are making reductions in determinations to the unemployed whose children are being fed by the local education authority; and whether this is being done with his knowledge and approval?
The board's practice in the treatment of school meals is set out in the Appendix to the Memorandum on the Unemployment Assistance Regulations, 1934, presented to Parliament in January, 1935 (Cmd. 4791). The question of these deductions is being considered by the board in connection with the whole problem of the future arrangements for the administration of unemployment assistance.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman think it ought not to be the board's function to aggravate poverty, but rather to relieve it?
When is a decision likely to be arrived at by the board?
It will not be long now.
asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that the Unemployment Assistance Board in the Mansfield area are reducing determinations to unemployed miners who have sons working in the pits who have received the increase in daily wage rates under the recent settlement between the Miners' Federation and the coalowners, and whether this is being done with his knowledge and approval?
Under the Unemployment Assistance Acts and Regulations the resources of the applicant's household must be taken into account in determining his unemployment allowance and it follows, therefore, that where the household income is increased, the allowance may be affected. It is open to any applicant who feels that his case has not been properly dealt with, to exercise his rights of appeal under the Acts.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman think it unfair to ask the public to pay more for their coal and yet the poverty in miners' houses not be alleviated?
It is a question of the determination of need.
Have any fresh instructions been sent to area officers with regard to the matter, and is it right to take into account retrospective pay?
The only instruction that I know about on that point is that where arrears of wages are paid in a lump sum, the board propose to ignore it.
Does the right hon. Gentleman think it fair that the Treasury should derive a benefit from a miners' campaign for an improved standard of life?
Statistics
asked the Minister of Labour the number of registered unemployed at each of the Employment Exchanges in Monmouthshire; the number in receipt of statutory benefit; and the number of applications made to the Unemployment Assistance Board?
As the reply includes a table of figures, I will, if I may, circulate a statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the statement:
Unemployed persons on the registers of Employment Exchanges in Monmouthshire at 20th January, 1936. Employment Exchange. Total number of unemployed persons on registers. Number with claims admitted for unemployment insurance benefit * Number with applications for unemployment allowances. † Abergavenny … … … 649 204 374 Abertillery … … … 2,753 291 2,052 Blackwood … … … 1,961 444 1,231 Blaenavon … … … 1,351 498 719 Blaina … … … 1,520 141 1,116 Caldicot … … … 234 62 127 Chepstow … … … 589 248 233 Crumlin … … … 1,691 301 1,244 Ebbw Yale … … … 3,582 645 2,377 Monmouth … … … 595 255 276 Newport … … … 6,104 3,074 1,895 Newport Docks … … … 2,105 1,256 807 Pontnewydd … … … 1,614 520 925 Pontypool … … … 4,530 1,498 2,690 Risca … … … 2,153 785 1,105 Tredegar … … … 2,313 455 1,604 Usk … … … 156 48 78 * The figures given exclude 186 claimants, in Monmouthshire, whose position under the First Statutory Condition had not been determined at 20th January. The figures given exclude 186 claimants, in Monmouthshire, whose position under the First Statutory Condition had not been determined at 20th January. † These figures include a small number of applicants on the registers (219 in Monmouthshire) whose needs were held by the Unemployment Assistance Board not to justify the payment of allowances.
Weavers (Blackburn)
asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that there is a shortage of weavers for fine voiles in Blackburn; and whether he will take steps to enable operatives to become proficient without sacrifice of unemployment benefit?
I am having inquiries made, and will communicate with my hon. and gallant Friend when they are completed.
Special Areas
asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that private companies have either ignored or refused the request of the commissioner for special areas to consider establishing or extending new light industries in special areas; and whether he can state the policy of the Government on this matter?
This point is fully discussed in the recent report of the commissioner for the special areas in England and Wales. As the hon. Member knows, the commissioner, in addition to continuing his efforts generally to attract new industries to the special areas, has in hand the formation of trading estates and makes proposals for special assistance for new industries, with regard to which there is a later question on the Paper addressed to my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
If the commissioner cannot give any hope, is it not time that the Government did something in the way of large-scale organisation?
Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will await the answer to the other question, which is on the same point.
Training Centres
asked the Minister of Labour the circumstances in which a father at Sheffield was prosecuted for not sending his son to a training centre?
If my hon. Friend will let me have particulars identifying the case he has in mind, I will make inquiries and communicate with him.
Transference (Young Persons)
asked the Minister of Labour how many young persons under 16 years of age have been transferred from the Provinces to the City of London for various kinds of employment since the passing of the 1934 Unemployment Insurance Act; and how many of them have returned to their homes?
I am having this information collected and will circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT as soon as possible.
May we have an assurance from the right hon. Gentleman that when any boy is transferred from the Provinces to the City of London and work is not obtained for him he will be sent home, and not be compelled to stay in London?
I can assure the House that the utmost care is taken in the aftercare of these boys.
Housing Association (Tyneside)
asked the Minister of Labour the names of the directors of the housing association operating on the Tyneside; the method of selection of these directors; and state to whom they are collectively and individually responsible?
The Council of Management of the North Eastern Housing Association, Limited, is as follows: Special Areas Fund and to agreements made with local authorities with the consent of the Ministry of Health under the Housing Act, 1935.
Are they in any way responsible to the right hon. Gentleman?
They are a voluntary body carrying out their duties in the manner I have stated.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this question has relation to the one which I have already asked him, and in reply to which he said that he was going to give an answer?
The hon. Gentleman is under a misapprehension. I asked him to await an answer to be given by the Chancellor of Exchequer, and not by me.
Road Workers (Western Isles)
asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that road workers in the Western Isles are being paid wages from 6d. an hour to as low as 2d. per hour with deductions for insurance contributions, and that in many cases these people, though willing to work and even to give some of their labour free, are worse off than others on poor relief living at the minimum standard; and whether he will investigate with a view of putting an end to such rates of wages?
I have no information with regard to the road workers to whom the hon. Member refers, but if he will be good enough to let me have such detailed particulars as he possesses, I will go further into the matter.
Milk Trade, Liverpool (Trade Board Inspections)
asked the Minister of Labour the number of visits made by trade board inspectors during 1934 to Liverpool firms in the milk trade; and what action was taken where breaches of trade board and Factory Act legislation were discovered?
There were 103 inspections in the Liverpool milk trade by trade board inspectors during 1934. One firm was successfully prosecuted on charges of underpayment and failure to keep adequate records and in other less serious cases statutory requirements were enforced by payment of arrears of wages or other appropriate action. Questions regarding breaches of the Factory Acts should be addressed to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Home Affairs.
Ministry of Labour (Provincial Branches)
asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that there are frequent complaints of friction in provincial branches of his Department due to alleged excessive supervision; and, if so, whether he will make an inquiry into the causes?
No, Sir. I am not aware that such complaints are frequent, or that there is any ground for them. I would remind the hon. Member that the Departmental Whitley Council provides regular machinery for the discussion of all such matters with representatives of the staff.
Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that the Whitley Council performs its duty in a satisfactory manner?
Certainly.
Oxford Prison (Escape)
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that ex-prison officers R. Burt and W. Lloyd, Oxford, have made statements under the Statutory Declarations Act, 1835, affirming on oath the truth of their statements made relating to the time they saw the prisoner Sullivan in his cell before his escape; and do the declarations relate to the statements for which the officers were supposed to be dismissed on the grounds that the statements were false?
I have seen copies of statutory declarations in which these officers repeat their previous statements. These declarations add nothing to the existing information.
asked the Home Secretary whether he can give an assurance that all the evidence against Burt and Lloyd at the inquiry that took place at Oxford Prison was shown to them in accordance with the standing order that governs the principle at stake?
I would refer the hon. Member to the answers which I gave on 12th December last to questions on this subject by the hon. Member for Islington, West (Mr. Montague).
Coal Industry (Silicosis Order)
asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that Sidney Norton, recently employed at the Great Mountain colliery, Tumble, has been certified as suffering from pneumoconiosis in the third stage; that Norton has worked for the last 14 years on the screens but does not come under the Silicosis Order and will therefore not receive compensation; and will he consider amending the above Order to include men who work in or about the mine?
This case has not, I understand, been before the Medical Board and I have no information in regard to it. The Home Office is not in possession of any evidence that work on the coal screens gives rise to silicosis, but if the hon. Member will send me particulars of the case including the medical certificate, I will consider them and, if necessary, inquire further into the matter.
Will the right hon. Gentleman send officials from his Department to this area in order to make inquiries on the spot?
In the first place, I should be obliged if the hon. Gentleman would let me have the particulars which he has in mind, and then we will see what ought to be done.
Will the Home Secretary give attention to the whole question, as there is great dissatisfaction in all areas that these respiratory diseases are leading to this particular form of disability?
As a matter of fact, I have had the matter very much under my attention in connection with various cases, but I was only aware of this particular matter when I saw the question.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the case recently decided in the High Court, and, if he is, will he further consider revising the Order?
It was to the Court of Appeal that the decision was referred.
To the House of Lords.
No, not the House of Lords. The matter has recently been before the Home Office and gone into very fully with the representatives of the men.
Judicial Proceedings (Regulation of Reports)
asked the Home Secretary whether he will consider introducing legislation to amend the present procedure in the courts so as to provide that all evidence of a shocking or offensive character in cases of alleged murder or other serious felonies shall be taken in camera?
No, Sir. I do not consider that it would be in the public interest to amend the law in the sense suggested. If the hon. Member has in mind the control of newspaper reports, I doubt if legislative restrictions could properly go beyond the provisions on the subject in the Judicial Proceedings (Regulation of Reports) Act, 1926.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman consider that the publication of some of the details in those cases has a bad influence upon younger minds?
I think that the hon. Gentleman had better look at the Section in the Judicial Proceedings Act, 1926, which will cover a great deal he has in mind.
Is there not a great difference of opinion as to what shocks or offends particular individuals?
Motoring Offences
(Convictions)
asked the Home Secretary whether records are kept of the number of convictions against motorists for exceeding the speed limit in public parks within the London area?
I am informed that the number of convictions in respect of this offence in the Royal Parks during 1935 was 2,793.
asked the Home Secretary how many prosecutions were instituted during 1935 for exceeding the speed limit; how many convictions were obtained; and how many prosecutions were in respect of drivers with no other occupants of the car?
As regards the first two parts of the question I must ask the hon. Member to await the publication of the Annual Return of offences relating to motor vehicles. No statistics are kept which would enable me to answer the third part.
Workmen's Compensation Acts
asked the Home Secretary the number of cases under the Workmen's Compensation Acts that have come into the Law Courts during last year or the nearest completed period?
The total number of applications for arbitration made to the county or sheriff courts in 1934—the last period for which the statistics are available—was 5,948. This includes many applications for dealing with allowances already granted and also many cases subsequently settled out of court or otherwise disposed of. For further details I would refer the hon. Member to pages 13 and 14 of the Workmen's Compensation Statistics for 1934, and to the tables on pages 28 to 31.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether, when the cases are carried forward, the costs are separated in order to show the actual cost of each case?
I doubt whether the return will give all that detail. Perhaps the hon. Member will look at the return.
I have got it.
Then, I am afraid that I must ask that the question be put on the Paper.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say in how many cases the local referee was called in to decide the matter?
Not without notice.
Prison Service (Pay)
asked the Home Secretary whether the suggested new scales of pay for the prison staffs in England and Wales are approved, and whether they will be extended to the Broadmoor Criminal Lunatic Asylum staff?
New scales of pay for established prison officers in England and Wales have been approved, and are now being introduced, with effect as from the 1st January last. The chief improvements in the scales are the increase of minimum pay which, in the case of male officers, is raised from 45s. 11d. to 50s. a week, exclusive of' lodging and other allowances, and the provision for maximum pay to be reached in future after twelve, instead of twenty, years' service. The question of a revision of the existing scales of pay of the Broadmoor Criminal Lunatic Asylum staff is being considered.
Arrest (Gateshead)
asked the Home Secretary whether he will institute an inquiry, as demanded by the mayor and two other magistrates at Gateshead Police Court on 15th January into the circumstances surrounding the arrest of a miner; and whether he will call upon the chief constable for a report on the circumstances of the case?
I have already made inquiry in this case and have had full reports before me. The watch committee, as disciplinary authority for the borough force, have gone fully into the matter and decided that no disciplinary action against the police concerned is called for. I see no reason to disagree with that conclusion.
Young Persons (Hours of Employment)
asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that no representative of London is a member of the recently appointed departmental committee on hours of employment of young persons in unregulated occupations; and whether, seeing that the number of such young persons is probably greater in London than in any other area, he will consider adding to the committee one or two persons fully acquainted with social and industrial conditions in the Metropolis?
The departmental committee to which the hon. Member refers has not been constituted on the basis of territorial representation, and I do not think it would be desirable to add to its number by including representatives of any special part of the country. The committee will no doubt obtain full information as to conditions in London from persons acquainted with that area.
Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that London with such a very large area has particular local conditions and that it is desirable that someone who really understands them should be added to the committee?
I quite agree with the proposition, but I think the committee will be better served by hearing evidence about these conditions than if a representative were actually appointed to the committee.
Is it not the case that prior to the appointment of this committee the complaint was that the provinces were always neglected?
Finger Prints (Juveniles)
asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that, in certain cases, young people convicted at juvenile courts have had their linger prints taken; whether this is the general practice; for what purpose this is done; and whether he will take steps to have this practice stopped?
The taking of finger prints is not only of assistance for the detection of crime, but is a most valuable means of correcting mistaken identification and so establishing innocence. Finger prints can only be compulsorily taken when persons are committed to prison, but I understand that in certain cases finger prints are taken, with the individual's consent, while in police custody. I have recently asked the chief officers of police to furnish information as to the arrangements for applying this practice in the case of juveniles.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman think it advisable that all Members of Parliament should have their finger prints taken?
It seems to me an excellent way of proving their attendance at Divisions.
Can we take it from the reply that the taking of finger prints in future is a sign of innocence?
I do not agree with the view that there is any proof of criminality in taking finger prints. The truth is that in the old days there were many cases of mistaken identification; many people said that they recognised the person and very often were mistaken. Now you can prove whether they are mistaken or not if finger prints have been taken.
Has the right hon. Gentleman considered the psychological effect on juveniles of taking their finger prints?
German Diplomatic Staff and Visitors
asked the Home Secretary how many diplomatic representatives represent Germany in this country; and how many Germans, other than Jews, have been afforded entry to this country in the three years ended December, 1935?
It is not the British practice in dealing with foreign visitors to inquire as to their race or religion and it is not therefore possible to give figures of the number of Germans, other than Jews, admitted to this country. The total number of Germans, comprising for the most part, business and holiday visitors, who were admitted to this country for visits of varying length during the three years ended December, 1935, was approximately 167,000. The first part of the question is for the Foreign Office, but I am informed by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary that the answer is that the German Ambassador has a staff of 36 persons of whom 22 are clerks and typists.
Coroners' Courts
asked the Home Secretary whether, in view of the recent case when a coroner and the coroner's jury inquiring into the death of a footballer censured the conduct of a football referee, and in view of other such cases, he will introduce legislation to prevent coroners or their juries expressing any such opinions or taking any action other than to ascertain the cause of death of the deceased?
The recent report of the departmental committee on coroners contains recommendations on the subject matter of my hon. Friend's question, and this report is at present under consideration.
May I ask whether from his unrivalled experience as a lawyer and in his present office, the right hon. Gentleman does not think it is desirable that something should be done so that people are not condemned by a coroner in public in their absence, and also that a coroner's jury should not be allowed to express an opinion when the accused has never been invited to attend the inquiry?
The report of the committee on coroners discusses this matter, and these considerations are fully set out.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a jury was only stopped from giving their verdict by very clever handling on the part of the police; that some of us were there on that occasion, and that before he condemns the coroner will he ask for further evidence?
Clubs (Sale of Intoxicants)
asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been drawn to the statement made at Croydon County Licensing Sessions on 13th February that the ease with which young people obtain intoxicants in clubs after permitted hours constitutes a public scandal calling for immediate legislative action; and whether at an early date the Government will be able to announce any proposals to deal with the matter?
I have seen a Press report of the statement referred to. As regards the question of legislative action, I would refer the hon. Member to my reply to a question by the hon. Member for Kennington (Mr. Harvey) on the 13th of this month.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that Croydon labours under sufficient afflictions to be relieved of this one? Is it not time that action in this matter should be speeded up in view of the fact that the Royal Commission on Clubs reported unanimously four years ago.
I have said that this matter is under serious consideration.
Trench Accident (Cuffley)
asked the Home Secretary whether he has received a report from the police relative to the accident to two men who were buried while digging a trench 15 feet deep on the Hill Farm Estate, Cuffley, Essex, on 17th February; whether he is aware that one of the men has since died from his injuries and that the other man is seriously injured; and whether he can give the House any information as to whether the trench was properly timbered and the cause of the accident?
No, Sir; and the police would not in the ordinary course send me reports on accidents of such a kind. I will, however, make inquiry as to this case and communicate with the hon. Member.
Lift Accident (Shoreditch)
asked the Home Secretary whether he has received a report from his factory inspector relative to the lift accident to a deaf mute at the premises of a cabinet manufacturer in Charles Square, Shoreditch; whether the safety regulations were fully observed; and what action he intends taking in the matter?
I have received a preliminary report on this accident which occurred last Monday, but it has not yet been possible to ascertain the precise cause. The safeguarding of the hoist is reported to be of a high standard, but the question of further action will ha gone into.
Factory Inspectorate
asked the Home Secretary the total number of male and female factory inspectors, respectively; and what increase has taken place since June, 1931?
The authorised strength of the factory inspectorate is 254, as compared with 245 in June, 1931, and an addition of nine is proposed in the forthcoming financial year. There are at present 181 men and 66 woman inspectors and seven vacancies. A competition for new appointments is now being held.
Factory Bill
asked the Home Secretary whether he proposes to introduce a new Factory Bill?
Yes, Sir. As was announced by the Prime Minister on 3rd December in the Debate on the Address, the Government hope and purpose to introduce a Bill next Session.
Economic Advisory Council
45 and 46.
asked the Prime Minister (1) whether the Committee of Civil Research is still in existence; and, if so, who is the chairman, how often it meets, and for what purposes;
(2) whether the Economic Advisory Council is still in existence; if so, whether there have been any changes in its personnel; whether it is ever consulted by His Majesty's Government, how often it meets, and whether it issues any reports?
The Committee of Civil Research was absorbed in the Economic Advisory Council by Treasury Minute dated 27th January, 1930, which was presented to Parliament as Cmd. 3478. The work of the Economic Advisory Council is confidential, but I may say that it is regularly carried on through two main standing committees dealing respectively with economic information and scientific research, and through a number of specialist committees. There were 26 meetings of the two standing committees in 1935. The majority of the reports prepared by the various committees are not published, but a few dealing with special subjects have been issued through the Stationery Office. There have been no recent changes in the personnel of the Council.
Is the right hon. Gentleman considering a further reorganisation of the machinery of government on the economic side at the same time as on the defence side, and does he not think that a permanent economic general staff would be of assistance to the Government in formulating a long-term policy?
At the moment I have as much in the way of reconstruction as I can do.
Is this council the same council which the present Minister of Transport once suggested should receive an important addition?
I have not consulted my right hon. Friend on that point.
Ministers (Newspaper Articles)
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that some years ago it was decided by the Cabinet that no Minister of the Crown should be allowed to write articles for the Press, he has given permission, as an exception, for the publication of the articles now appearing in a certain Sunday newspaper under the name of the present Secretary of State for War?
As has already been stated, the decision referred to by the hon. Member did not apply to writings of a scientific or historical character. The articles in question are, I understand, excerpts from a historical work.
In view of the fact that these articles are appearing weekly in a Sunday newspaper and that they show that a Minister is editing them, will it not lead people to think that he is evading the honourable understanding arrived at that Ministers should not contribute articles to the Press?
I cannot help the misunderstandings from which people suffer. The practice has been quite clear for many years, and has been observed. As regards the papers in which these excerpts appeared, I am afraid that I cannot offer any opinion because I have not seen them myself.
Are we to take it that Cabinet Ministers in future will be allowed to do this sort of thing in spite of the honourable understanding?
The hon. Member is really quite in error. If he would be good enough to look back to-the previous answers which have been given—I will gladly give him the reference—he will find that excerpts from scientific and historical works have always been excepted. What has been against the rule, and stated plainly, are what may be described as ordinary journalistic articles. Questions have been asked from time to time during the past 10 years on. this matter, and the hon. Member will find that what I am saying to-day is completely in line with those answers,, whether they have been given by a Government of my party or by a Government, of his own party.
Does not the right. hon. Gentleman think that the understanding should be observed in the spirit, as well as in the letter?
The understanding is being observed to-day exactly as it has ever since the first statement was made in this House.
Who is to decide the question whether the article comes within the historical or political sphere?
Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Duties)
asked the Prime Minister what duties are being discharged by the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster in addition to those directly appertaining to the office?
In addition to the duties and functions of his office, the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster is chairman of the inter-departmental committee which is investigating the measures necessary to accelerate the revision of ordnance survey maps and other kindred matters.
Does the Prime Minister seriously suggest that that, together with the nominal duties of the Chancellor of the Duchy, is a reasonable-return to the public for the substantial salary paid to the holder of the office?
If the public paid the salary to the Minister, I would be glad to answer that question, but the right hon. Gentleman knows that the public do not pay it. The Chancellor of the Duchy is paid out of the revenues of the Duchy. It may be that when the right hon. Gentleman was a Member of a Government he regarded the duties of the Chancellor as nominal. As a matter of fact, it is an office to which a Minister can devote a great deal of time or to which he can devote none. He is the administrative head of very large estates with properties in all parts of the country. The present Minister has devoted a great deal of personal attention to the administration of these estates.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the statement which he has just made, as to the magnitude of the duties attached to this office, is quite contrary to what we understood from a former holder of the office; and can he inform the House whether part of the duties of the Chancellor of the Duchy is to act as liaison officer between the Government and an outside political organisation?
I think the answer I have given is perfectly plain. I wish to make it clear to the House, because there has always been a great deal of misunderstanding on the point, that the salary of this particular office is not subject to Parliamentary control.
House of Commons (Sittings)
asked the Prime Minister whether he will consider bringing before this House a Motion to amend the Standing Orders of the House by rescinding completely the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)?
No, Sir, not at the present moment.
Are we to understand from that reply that it is the intention of the Prime Minister to continue the present practice of suspending the Eleven o'clock Rule nearly every day on which Government business is put down; and will he not give the House a chance of discussing that action?
The hon. Member may have it within his recollection that at this time of the Session the suspension of the Eleven o'clock Rule is generally not of infrequent occurrence, because there is a lot of necessary business which has to be got through before Easter. If he refreshes his memory he will find that when his Government were in office, he voted regularly for the suspension of the Rule, night after night, when, I may add, I opposed it.
If the Prime Minister opposed it when Labour was in office, why does he not continue to oppose it now?
Naval Development (Newspaper Article)
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been drawn to the publication in the Press, on 17th February, of a report which purports to give the contents of the White Paper to be issued with regard to naval development; whether inquiries are being made into the source of this apparent leakage of confidential information; and whether he will make a statement on the matter?
I have no reason to believe that any of the reports to which my attention has been drawn have been based upon anything but conjecture.
Has the right hon. Gentleman seen the publication in the "Sheffield Daily Telegraph" on Monday?
Yes.
Does the right hon. Gentleman seriously think that that could be based on anything else but the revelation of private information?
I have looked at it carefully—and I have had a great deal of experience in looking at articles in the Press which have been based on intelligent anticipation—and I see nothing whatever in that article to lead me to believe that it could not have been compiled by an intelligent journalist, with such knowledge as would naturally have been in his possession.
Is the Prime Minister aware that there is a feeling of some suspicion on these matters which is strengthened by the kind of publication that appeared this morning regarding the Departmental Committee on Sanc- tions; and will he not do something to prevent this kind of leakage of information which ought first to be supplied to Members of the House of Commons?
Will the right hon. Gentleman draw the attention of the Home Secretary to the leakage of other confidential reports which appear in the foreign Press; and could not the Home Office in conjunction with the Post Office exercise a closer control of telegrams and letters to the foreign Press?
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hills-borough (Mr. Alexander) has, of course, been a Member of a Government and he knows as well as I do how occasions do arise in which anxiety is caused to the Members of a Government by what are, obviously, leakages. In this particular case, I have examined the articles and, speaking with some experience, I say that I do not believe that the question of leakage arises. There is nothing in any of these articles that I could not have written myself with the knowledge that I should have possessed, had I had the position and, may I add, the intelligence of the ordinary journalist.
Defence Services
Co-Ordination
51 and 53.
asked the Prime Minister (1) whether, in view of the widespread opinion that some form of co-ordination of the fighting services is essential in order to determine what is the proper function of each of those services, he will place no long-range rearmament Estimates before the House until after a co-ordinating authority has been set up and has considered the matter;
(2) whether in view of the grave doubts expressed in many quarters, expert as well as lay, as to the value of the big battleship, he will defer embarking upon any programme of construction of such ships until after their functions have been investigated by an impartial committee?
The programme which will be presented to the House shortly will be a co-ordinated programme in which the proper functions of the three services have been fully taken into account. But, as my hon. and gallant Friend will appreciate, any long-range programme must be flexible and subject to continuous review and modification as circumstances may require.
What is the co-ordinating authority by which these inquiries will be taken in hand?
If the hon. and gallant Member will be good enough to wait until the Debate, I think we can make that clear.
Armaments (Costings)
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the record levels which aircraft, iron, and steel shares have reached coincidently with the Government's examination of re-armament, he will institute some system of costings control, so that the heavy burden which rearmament will lay upon the nation may not afford an opportunity for the making of excessive profits?
Provision is already made for the inclusion of a costings clause in the contracts for aircraft and engines placed in connection with the expansion of the Royal Air Force, and similarly appropriate steps will be taken to ensure that excessive profits are not made in the orders that will be placed to make good deficiencies in the other defence services.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the share market, indicates that excessive profits are already being made, and that excessive profits are anticipated in the future?
I am afraid that, great as the power of the Government is, we cannot control speculators.
Have the Government taken any steps to inform the average investors of the likelihood that they will lose their money owing to the failure of the Government to prevent profiteering?
I should never venture to give advice to a speculator and, if I did so, I am afraid it would be no good.
Is it not the case that the alteration in the value of the shares, makes no difference in the costings?
Education
Supplementary Teachers (Superannuation)
asked the President of the Board of Education whether he will consider the provision of pensions for supplementary teachers on their retirement?
The question of the admission of supplementary teachers to the benefits of the Teachers (Superannuation) Acts, which are of national scope and apply to the majority of teachers in schools aided with grant by the Board, was fully considered both in 1918 and 1925 during the passage through Parliament of the Acts of those: years, and I do not see my way to introducing legislation to make the provision my hon. Friend desires. The question of admission of supplementary teachers to the benefits of the superannuation schemes conducted by the local education authorities employing them is one for the local education authorities concerned. I believe that a number of authorities have admitted such teachers.
Will the right hon. Gentleman see that the Board makes grants in respect of superannuation contributions paid by the local education authorities?
That is another matter.
Teachers (Unconfirmed Certificates)
asked the President of the Board of Education the numbers and percentage of certificated teachers from the training colleges and from the university training departments, respectively, who failed to have their certificates confirmed at the end of their probationary year in 1930, 1931, 1933, 1934 and 1935?
With the hon. Member's permission I shall circulate the answer, which contains a table of figures, in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the answer:
The third column of the following table gives the number of certificated teachers who served for a probationary period of a year or longer in public elementary schools and whose recognition has not been confirmed. The first column shows the year in which they completed their training, the second column the total number of students who successfully completed their training in that year, and the last column gives column 3 as a percentage of column 2.
Teachers trained at Non-University Training Colleges. 1. 2. 3. 4. 1929 4,742 9 0.2 1930 4,675 2 0.04 1931 5,059 6 0.1 1932 4,876 14 0.3 1933 5,421 11 0.2 Teachers trained in the Training Departments of the Universities and University Colleges University 1. 2. 3. 4. 1929 1,807 0 0.0 1930 1,842 5 0.3 1931 2,186 13 0.6 1932 2,205 7 0.3 1933 2,058 6 0.3
Note.—As teachers do not necessarily commence work in public elementary schools immediately after leaving the training college or training department, comparable figures cannot yet be given for the years 1934 or 1935.
Education Bill
asked the President of the Board of Education whether he intends to issue a circular to local education authorities for higher education with regard to the training of teachers for the 5,000 additional posts he anticipates will be created by the third year of the operation as law of the present Education Bill; and has he yet formed any estimate of the number of handicrafts and domestic subjects teachers included in his total estimate?
I cannot at this stage indicate what action I should take in the event of the Education Bill becoming law. I have not yet been able to arrive at an estimate of the number of handicraft and domestic subjects teachers which are included in the figure of 5,000.
Holidays
asked the President of the Board of Education whether, in view of the movement to reduce homework, he will consider recommending the extension of holidays in State and rate-aided schools, so as to bring these on a par with holidays in private schools?
I doubt the appropriateness of the course suggested by my hon. Friend. Any curtailment of term time might well tend to an increase rather than a reduction of the amount of time devoted to home-work.
Religious Instruction
asked the President of the Board of Education whether there are any provided schools in England and Wales in which no religious education is given; and, if so, how many?
The Board do not inspect religious instruction in public elementary schools, and I have no official information as to schools in which no such instruction is given. My impression is that there are no provided schools of the kind.
Single School Areas
asked the President of the Board of Education how many provided and non-provided schools there, are in England and Wales; and how many of these, respectively, are in single school areas, distinguishing Anglican and Roman Catholic schools?
I shall with the hon. Member's permission, circulate the answer in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the answer:
England and Wales. Public Elementary Schools maintained by Local Education Authorities on 31st March, 1935. — (1) Number of Schools. (2) * Number of Schools in single school areas.(3)Number of Schools in single school areas.(3) Council Schools 10,088 2,125 Voluntary Schools— Church of England 9,197 4,141 Roman Catholic 1,230 13 Other Voluntary 339 61 Total 20,854 6,340 * A single school area for the purposes of this return is defined as a Civil Parish in which there is only one Public Elementary School. No account has been taken of the accessibility of schools in adjoining Parishes. A single school area for the purposes of this return is defined as a Civil Parish in which there is only one Public Elementary School. No account has been taken of the accessibility of schools in adjoining Parishes.
School-Leaving Age
asked the President of the Board of Education at what age compulsory education commences and at what age it ends in the following countries: France, Germany, and Italy; and whether any of these countries provide maintenance allowances?
In Italy a child must attend school between the ages of 6 and 14, and in France between the ages of 6 and 13, although in France exemptions may be granted at 12 if a leaving certificate is gained. In Germany compulsory education covers a period of eight years, the age limits normally being 6 years and 14 years. As far as my information goes no maintenance allowances are awarded in these countries.
asked the President of the Board of Education whether he is in a position to state the total increase in children attending non-provided schools likely to result from the raising of the school-leaving age; and if he can give the separate figures relating to the Church of England and Roman Catholic schools?
I am afraid that it will take some time to make the estimate which the hon. Member desires from the material at my disposal, but I will send it to him as soon as it is available.
Doncaster Grammar School
asked the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware that the Doncaster Grammar School consists mainly of wooden huts and that the children were recently sent home owing to the intense cold; and what action he proposes to take to ensure adequate and healthy accommodation?
I am aware of the conditions existing at the Doncaster Grammar School. The local education authority have recently submitted comprehensive proposals for remodelling and extending the school premises, which involve the elimination of the wooden huts. These proposals are now under consideration by the board.
Will the right hon. Gentleman facilitate his decision on this matter?
The difficulty at the moment is that they have decided to hold a competition for plans, and that necessarily holds the matter up.
Housing
Fire Protection
asked the Minister of Health whether his attention has been drawn to the increasing danger of fire risks prevailing in the present type of working-class dwellings through the use of open and unprotected fire-grates in many districts where there are no fire-alarms or telephones within a radius of a quarter of a mile; and, with a view to minimising these dangers, will he consider introducing legislation that will empower local authorities to compel all landlords to install or fit fireguards to open grates in order to prevent lighted fuel from falling on the floors?
I have not had my attention drawn to increasing danger from this source. If the hon. Member has information to show that legislation is called for, I shall be glad to consider it.
Has the right hon. Gentleman had his attention drawn to the fact that many thousands of homes in the North of England have large open unprotected grates and will he consider in what way the public can be protected from these dangers?
If the hon. Gentleman has any information, he had better send it to me.
Associations
asked the Minister of Health whether a local authority which has developed its own works department on successful lines will be compelled to dissolve such department should they join a housing association?
A local authority may make arrangements with a housing association in respect of a part or the whole of its building programme, and the continuance of a special works department will depend on the amount of building which the authority retains in its own hands.
Are we to understand that when houses are handed over to a housing association by a local authority the association will also take over the works department?
I do not think that that necessarily follows.
Does it mean that if the works department is not taken over the people employed in it will be out of work?
No, I do not think it means that. I think it means more building activity, and probably more employment by building operatives.
asked the Minister of Health whether a local authority which refuses to link up with a housing association will receive the same financial assistance towards its housing schemes as those local authorities connected with housing associations?
As indicated in my reply to a similar question by the hon. Member on the 13th instant, the amount of Exchequer subsidy payable under the Acts in respect of a house is the same whether the house is provided directly by the local authority or under arrangements made between the local authority and a housing association. A local authority which makes such arrangements is under no obligation to contribute from the rates towards the expense of houses built by the association except in so far as the arrangements so provide.
The right hon. Gentleman has not yet told us definitely whether a local authority joining a housing association is to have special privileges over the local authority that does not join a housing association.
The hon. Gentleman has not put that question on the Paper. If he will do so I will answer it. He is endeavouring to ask what is the arrangement made by a housing association as a result of the action of the Commissioner.
I have put the question down on two previous occasions and the right hon. Gentleman does not appear to be in a position to give a direct answer. As this is an important matter to the local authorities, I beg to give notice that I will raise it on the Adjournment at the first available opportunity.
Slum Clearance (Bethnal Green)
asked the Minister of Health whether his attention has been called to a lot of bad slum courts in Bethnal Green which have been the subject of a survey by the Bethnal Green Housing Association, especially to Busby Square, where the total population appears to be 53 persons in one three-room and 10 two-room houses, the area of the site being 2,686 square feet, including the yard, etc., i.e., one-sixteenth of an acre; whether he is aware that the lavatory arrangements are in a most unsatisfactory condition; whether he can find out if anything can be done to provide alternative accommodation for the people living under these conditions; and whether, when that is available, the court can be cleared?
My attention has been called to this matter. The London County Council and the Bethnal Green Borough Council are engaged in dealing in close co-operation with slum areas in the borough. I understand that the area referred to will be dealt with as soon as practicable.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that this is a very special case and that it should have priority over other cases that are not so urgent because of the appalling conditions prevailing?
I have no doubt that the London County Council and the Bethnal Green Borough Council have this matter in hand.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that for three years there was a solid Liberal borough council in Bethnal Green?
Management Commissions
asked the Minister of Health how many local authorities have applied to him under the powers granted in the Housing Act, 1935, Section 25, to establish housing management commissions; and how many applications have been granted?
No such application has as yet been received: the second part of the question does not therefore arise.
In view of the answer, does the right hon. Gentleman share the view of his predecessor that this proposal in the 1935 Housing Act was a desirable innovation?
It is early days yet.
Public Health
Maternal Mortality
asked the Minister of Health the number of deaths from and arising out of childbirth for the years ended 31st December, 1932, 1933, 1934 and 1935?
As the answer involves a tabular statement, I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate the statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the statement:
Deaths registered in England and Wales. — Classified to Pregnancy and Childbearing. Not so classified but returned as associated with those conditions. 1932 2,587 713 s1933 2,618 828 1934 2,748 747 1935 Not yet available.
Ambulances (London)
asked the Minister of Health whether his attention has been called to the recent case that came before the Stepney coroner of a woman having to wheel the dead body of her child through the streets to the London Hospital for a post-mortem examination because the hospital was not able to provide an ambulance; and whether he will endeavour to see that there is closer co-operation between the private hospitals and the municipal ambulance to prevent incidents of this character?
I have seen a newspaper report of this case and am making inquiries. I will communicate with the hon. Member when I am more fully informed of the circumstances.
When may I put down a question?
Perhaps within a week.
Nutrition (League of Nations Report)
asked the Minister of Health whether he has considered the report on the physiological bases of nutrition made by the technical commission appointed by the Health Committee of the League of Nations; and what action it is proposed to take?
I have received this report, which lays down certain general principles, and I have referred it to my Advisory Committee on Nutrition for their consideration.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the President of the Board of Education was able to give a carefully considered reply on this subject, and can he explain why he is a little behind?
I will adopt my right hon. Friend's statement.
Milk (Special Designations) Order
asked the Minister of Health whether his attention has been called to the recent criticisms of the new Milk Designation Order; and will he undertake to re-examine the question, with a view to helping the campaign for pure milk instead of deteriorating the standard already attained?
Various representations have been made to me on the draft Milk (Special Designations) Order, and they will have my fullest consideration before the Order is finally settled.
Nurses (Registration)
asked the Minister of Health whether he is able to give an undertaking that the boards of management of the principal voluntary hospitals of the country shall be consulted before any action is taken to amend Rule No. 4 (1) of the Nurses Registration Act, 1919, or before it becomes law?
I do not think it necessary to adopt the course suggested by my hon. Friend. The proposed new Rule 4 (1, a ) of the General Nursing Council, to which I presume he is referring, has been published in the Press, and it is open to any interested party who objects to the rule to make representations to me before I approve it under the Act. I may add that the voluntary hospitals are represented on the General Nursing Council.
National Park (Dovedale)
asked the Minister of Health the present position with regard to the preservation of Dovedale; and how far arrangements have already been made or are contemplated jointly between local governing bodies in Staffordshire and Derbyshire or through the planning scheme of the Leek Rural District Council in this direction?
Resolutions to prepare schemes have been passed by the Peak Joint Committee and the Leek Rural District Council and are now in force. The actual schemes are in course of preparation by the committee which, I may say, includes representatives of the interested authorities in Derbyshire and by the Leek Rural District Council in Staffordshire.
Do I understand that there is to be no joint committee of the two councils?
I am not sure about that, but I think all the necessary steps have been taken.
Widows' Pensions
asked the Minister of Health the number of widows who claimed a pension in 1934 and 1935, the number granted, and the number refused on the grounds of stamp disqualification?
As the answer contains a number of figures, I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Will the right hon. Gentleman look into the corresponding figures for Scotland in view of the need for legislation?
Following is the answer:
In England and Wales during 1934, 83,570 widows applied for pensions; 70,790 pensions were awarded; 11,880 claims were rejected. The corresponding figures for 1935 are 78,960, 67,960 and 11,450 respectively. Details of the causes of rejection are not available but it may be taken that the number which failed on the contribution tests did not reach 10 per cent. of the total.
Brewing Companies (Profits)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the aggregate yearly profits of the brewing companies in the United Kingdom for the last three separate years for which complete figures are available?
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the amount of profits of the brewing trade as returned for Income Tax purposes less the allowances for wear and tear and including all profits arising from any trade or activity ancillary to the main business for the accounting year 1934–35?
The profits of brewing concerns for the accounting years ended in the Income Tax years 1932–33, 1933–34 and 1934–35 are estimated at £16,000,000, £18,000,000 and £23,000,000 respectively, after allowance for wear and tear of plant and machinery, but including profits arising from trade ancillary to the main business.
Would the right hon. Gentleman be able to give similar figures for the ginger-beer and cocoa industries?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the upward trend in these profits has been accompanied by a similar upward trend in the costs of the police in consequence of the increased convictions for drunkenness?
Can the right hon. Gentleman say the gross amount of taxation which has been paid to the Treasury by this industry?
I could not do so without notice.
Are not the figures such as to encourage the right hon. Gentleman to make further reductions in taxation?
Petrol Duty
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will see his way, in the coming Budget, to repeal the special tax on petrol imposed in 1931, and so redeem the promise made by his predecessor?
I am not aware of any promise by my predecessor to repeal the tax on petrol imposed in 1931. In any case, my hon. and gallant Friend will not expect me to anticipate my Budget statement.
Afforestation (Special Areas)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what provision he proposes to make available for the operations of the Forestry Com- mission; and whether, having regard to the high employment value of afforestation, it is intended to arrange for the Commissioners to undertake a substantial programme of planting in the special areas?
I discussed with the Forestry Commissioners last summer the requirements of their programme for the general development of forestry in Great Britain, and I agreed to recommend to the House that the annual grant-in-aid to the Forestry Fund for the next five years should be increased to £500,000. This sum, together with the steadily increasing revenue available to the Commission from working receipts, and with certain assistance as regards land acquisition for which the Commissioners of Crown Lands propose to seek power, will enable the Commissioners gradually to expand their normal planting programme to 30,000 acres per annum, an increase of nearly 50 per cent. on the planting rate for recent years.
As regards the special areas, on consideration of Mr. Malcolm Stewart's first report, it was arranged that the Forestry Commissioners should make a preliminary survey of the possibilities of afforestation in or near these areas. On the results of this survey the Commissioners estimated that within about 15 miles of the special areas there are some 200,000 acres of land which it should be practicable to acquire for afforestation. They accordingly, with Mr. Stewart's support, proposed a scheme of acquisition and planting covering this acreage and providing also for the establishment of 1,000 forest workers' holdings. The scheme contemplated that land acquisition and the establishment of forest workers' holdings should be proceeded with as rapidly as possible; the subsequent planting operations for technical reasons would need to be spread over a period of about ten years.
While the practical limits of such a programme cannot be defined until actual experience has been gained, the Government have accepted the scheme in principle subject to review at a later date in the light of the progress made and of the expenditure involved. For the present, the Commissioners have been authorised to proceed with a first instalment of the scheme, which is estimated to require, as acquisition, establishment of holdings, and planting proceed, additional grants-in-aid to the Forestry Fund of the order of £1,650,000 in all. The grant-in-aid for 1936 will include provision for the initiation of the additional scheme for the special areas and will be submitted to Parliament at a total of £700,000, an increase of £250,000 on the provision voted for 1935.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say how much additional labour is likely to be employed?
I would ask the hon. Baronet to put down a question on that subject.
In view of the congested nature of the area, will the right hon. Gentleman consider making this 15 acres into a national park?
That raises rather a different question.
France (British Banking Credit)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has any statement to make regarding the sterling credit to France?
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can make a statement regarding the progress of the negotiations for a loan from Great Britain to France; whether the Treasury has given approval or sanction to such a proposal; what is the amount of the outstanding indebtedness of France to Great Britain; when was the last payment made from France to Great Britain; and what steps have been taken to recover the remaining indebtedness?
The French Government recently informed me of their desire to raise a banking credit in London. The House will recollect that in 1931, owing to the good offices of the French Government, His Majesty's Government obtained a large banking credit in Paris, and on the present occasion, as on the occasion of a similar operation in 1933, I was glad to be able to perform a similar service and to convey to the French Government my consent to their proposed borrowing. As the House is aware, the credit is for a total of £40,000,000 sterling for a period not exceeding nine months. When I gave my consent to this operation I naturally had in mind the position of the exchanges, and I therefore satisfied myself that proper technical arrangements had been made between the Central Banks. In reply to the later parts of the question by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Sudbury (Colonel Burton) the last payment received from France in respect of War Debts was made on 15th June, 1931. Since that date payments in respect of War Debts have been suspended in accordance with the arrangements made at the Lausanne Conference. Particulars of the War Debts outstanding will be found on page 6 of the Financial Statement for 1935–36.
Is any part of the gold reserve of the Bank of France charged with security for this credit?
Perhaps the hon. Member will put down a question on that point.
Import Duties (Milk and Cream)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer when a decision will be issued on the application submitted to the Import Duties Advisory Committee on 18th June, 1935, for additional duties on condensed milk, dried milk, and canned cream, in view of the fact that the home production of milk this summer is likely to show a further increase?
I understand that the Committee are awaiting certain further information from the applicants.
Questions to Ministers
May I ask the Prime Minister whether he can state the business for next week?
Before that question as to business is answered, may I ask the Prime Minister—I admit on very short notice—whether he can make any statement about the important State document which has apparently been procured from British sources and published in Rome—[HON. MEMBERS: "It has been answered!"] I apologise to the House if I am wrong, but I understand that the question has not been answered, and in that case I would venture to ask whether he would make some mention of the matter, though naturally I could not expect a full statement. It is a matter of very great importance.
On a point of Order. I understood that Private Notice Questions had to be put in before 12 o'clock. Has the right hon. Gentleman complied with that rule?
I am asking the question only because this is a matter of great urgency, and one in which the House has a great interest.
There is no rule that Private Notice Questions should be handed in at 12 o'clock, but there is an understanding that sufficient notice should be given to the Minister and to me.
With great respect, Mr. Speaker, I recently gave sufficient notice of a Question on an entirely similar matter, but you then ruled that it was not in order for me to put it.
It was not exactly the same matter.
Do you rule that this is a question of urgency?
I have not ruled one way or the other.
I am asking you, Sir.
In this particular instance I have not had notice of the question. Mr. Attlee.
With very great respect, Mr. Speaker, did I not gather that you would permit the Prime Minister to give an answer on this question, which apparently he is quite ready to do?
I really have not had time to consider it.
I mentioned this matter in a supplementary question to the Prime Minister, and he did not answer, but that is not my fault.
I think to that extent the matter has already been dealt with.
I feel very much concerned about this question of Procedure. Perhaps the right hon. Gentlemen above the Gangway will not applaud when they know my point of view. I have always understood that on matters of very great urgency it was your practice, Mr. Speaker, to allow, on the very shortest notice, facilities for a statement to be made in this House. Am I to understand that you are now departing from a practice which has made for the efficiency of this House and its speedy dealing with matters of public importance?
I do not know upon what grounds the hon. Member has come to that conclusion—certainly not from my reply. I said that there was no particular time, except that sufficient notice must be given.
May I ask the Prime Minister—I believe he is quite ready to deal with the matter—to give me an answer?
rose —
Not on this occasion. The House seems to be entirely against it.
No.
Might I point out to you, Sir, that the majority of the House are most anxious to have the statement?
Perhaps I mis-used the word "entirely," but there are a large number of hon. Members. On this occasion there is no way for me to arrive at the figures, and therefore I think the House is not sufficiently in favour of it for me to allow it.
Might I ask you, Sir—
Hon. Members must consider the matter closed now.
Business of the House
Might I ask the Prime Minister the business for next week?
On Monday it is proposed to move the Adjournment of the House for a discussion on Foreign Affairs. When the Debate is concluded, as we hope it will be, by about 9.30 p.m., we shall consider and pass the Supplementary Estimates for the Navy, Army and Air Services. I may add that in order to meet the general convenience of the House, the arrangements for Monday's Debate have been discussed and agreed to through the usual channels.
Tuesday: Committee stage of Civil Supplementary Estimates, beginning with Class 2, Vote 1 (Foreign Office) and Vote 3 (League of Nations); Milk (Extension of Temporary Provisions) Bill, Committee stage; Report stage of the Supplementary Estimates for the Navy, Army and Air Services.
Wednesday: Private Members' Motions.
Thursday: Further consideration of Supplementary Estimates in Committee and on Report (the order in which they are to be taken will be announced later); British Shipping (Continuance of Subsidy) Bill, Committee stage.
Friday: Private Members' Bills.
On any day, if there is time, other Orders may be taken.
Does the Prime Minister expect that the House will sit very late on Monday? It may be difficult to bring the first Debate to a close by a particular time. As for Tuesday's business, it appears likely that particular points which might arise on the Supplementary Estimates for the Navy, Army and Air Services may not be discussed on Monday, and, being put last on Tuesday, may be squeezed out altogether. Is there no possibility of re-arranging Tuesday's business?
At the moment I would merely say that we have given great pains to this programme. I would once more remind the House that the Government -have given the whole of Private Members' time to Private Members. Had the Government taken that time for Government business, these difficulties would not arise. There must be a certain amount of give-and-take. With regard to the Estimates, I think it would be agreed that the Service Estimates are dependent upon policy, and it is because we thought that it would be a great convenience to the House, to be able to discuss policy, which could not be discussed at length on the Services Supplementary Estimates, that we propose to have a general discussion by moving the Adjournment of the House. I hope that it may be possible so to dispose of the questions that will be raised during the Debate that there will be little or none to be dealt with on the Report stage. I hope we shall not be late. I do not like late hours, but I quite understand that although there is an agreement as to the hour of the Debate on the general question, it may be that the House will find it impossible to conclude the Debate in that time. We feel that we must get Monday's programme as put down, or we shall run a real risk of getting behind with the finances of the year which, of course, is a very serious matter for the Government and for the House.
Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that, besides the main purposes of the Supplementary Estimates, questions will arise on other subjects such as the provision of a new flotilla and the Singapore base, which may also arise in discussion. The House met on 4th February by arrangement of the Government, and not the Opposition.
Yes, I quite understand that. We must wait and see how we get on.
In view of the importance of the Debate on Monday, and of the fact that a State document has been published in Rome, will not the Government consider laying as a White Paper that report, so that the British public and the House of Commons may be made acquainted with the full facts concerning that report?
I shall be very glad to answer that question, together with the question raised by my right hon. Friend. I have been so occupied with my own work this morning that I know nothing about the question which my right hon. Friend asked. I will bear in mind the point which the right hon. Gentleman has raised.
I very respectfully press that some Member of the Government should have a matter such as this—
On a point of Order. Is it proper for the right hon. Gentleman to ask a Private Notice Question which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) was refused?
Every Member is entitled to put a question on Business, and I think this was a good opportunity of doing so. I want to press the right hon. Gentleman. We shall not have an opportunity of asking about this matter before the Debate takes place, and we shall not be able to carry on that Debate on Monday in a satisfactory manner unless we know whether the statements published in Bonne are accurate or not. The best way to settle that is to get the report published here, and laid on the Table of the House.
I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman will know from his experience that I must consider that point. I cannot answer a question like that, not having had any notice.
Would it be convenient for the Prime Minister to say which Minister will open the discussion?
I assume that the Opposition will open the Debate. I have no desire to lay down any rule. The Minister concerned is the Foreign Secretary.
On the general question, may I ask the Prime Minister whether an early opportunity will be given to the House to discuss the revision or the extension of trade agreements before the negotiations are opened?
It is perfectly impossible to answer that question without notice. So far as I can answer without notice, I would say that that will not be in the immediate future.
Would the Prime Minister consider the possibility of a statement being made at the opening of the sitting to-morrow with reference to what has come out in Rome?
I cannot answer that question now.
Can the Prime Minister say how far it is proposed to go to-day?
Yes, Sir, we must get the first three orders. I should like to get also the fourth order, the Pensions (Governors of Dominions, &c.) Bill.
I do not know whether the Prime Minister is aware that on the question of defence previously we had some sort of assurance that we would get time in the day, so that we need not discuss these questions through the night.
I hope we shall not need to sit late.
Motion made, and Question put,
"That the Proceedings on Government Business be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[ The Prime Minister. ]
The House divided: Ayes, 259; Noes, 126.
Division No. 47.] AYES. [4.0 p.m. Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.) Bossom, A. C. Chapman, A. (Ruthwglen) Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G. Boulton, W. W. Chapman, Sir S. (Edinburgh, S.) Albery, I. J. Bowyer, Capt. Sir G. E. W. Chorlton, A. E. L. Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'kn'hd) Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B. Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Anderson, Sir A. Garrett (C. of Ldn.) Braithwaite, Major A. N. Clarke, F. E. Aske, Sir R. W. Brass, Sir W. Cobb, Sir C. S. Assheton, R. Briscoe, Capt. R. G. Colfox. Major W. P. Astor, Major Hon. J. J. (Dover) Brocklebank, C. E. R. Cook, T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.) Astor, Hon. W. W. (Fulham, E.) Brown, Col. D. C. (Hexham) Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.) Atholl, Duchess of Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Lelth) Cooper, Rt. Hn. A. Dufl(W'st'r S.G'gs) Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury) Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh.W.) Balfour, Cant. H. H. (Isle of Thanet) Bull, B. B. Courtauld, Major J. S. Balniel, Lord Bullock, Capt. M. Courthope, Col. Sir G. L. Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Burghley, Lord Craddock, Sir R. H. Baxter, A. Beverley Burgin, Dr. E. L. Cranborne, Viscount Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h) Butler, R. A. Crooke, J. S. Beit, Sir A. L. Cartland, J. R. H. Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C. Bernays, R. H. Cary, R. A. Crowder, J. F. E. Birchall, Sir J. D. Castlereagh, Viscount Cuiverwell, C. T. Blair, Sir R. Cautley, Sir H. S. Davidson, Rt. Hon. Sir J. C. C. Blaker, Sir R. Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir A. (Br.W.) Davies, Major G. F. (Yeovil) Blindell, Sir J. Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n) Davison, Sir W. H. Borodale, Viscount Channon, H. De Chair, S. S. De la Bère, R. Kerr, Colonel C. I. (Montrose) Rickards, G. W. (Skipton) Despencer-Robertson, Major J. A. F. Kerr, H. W. (Oldham) Ropner, Colonel L. Dodd, J. S. Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.) Ross, Major Sir R. D. (L'derry) Donner, P. W. Keyes, Admiral of the Fleet Sir R. Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge) Dorman-Smith, Major R. H. Kimball, L. Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir E. A. Dower, Capt. A. V. G. Knox, Major-General Sir A. W. F. Runciman, Rt. Hon. W. Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side) Lamb, Sir J. Q. Russell, A. West (Tynemouth) Dugdale, Major T. L. Latham, Sir P. Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury) Duggan, H. J. Law, Sir A. J. (High Peak) Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen) Duncan, J. A. L. Leigh, Sir J. Salmon, Sir I Dunglass, Lord Levy, T. Salt, E. W. Eckersley, P. T. Lewis, O. Samuel, Sir A. M. (Farnham) Eden, Rt. Hon. A. Liddall, W. S. Samuel, M. R. A. (Putney) Edmondson, Major Sir J. Lindsay, K. M. Sanders, W. S. Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E. Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J. Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir P. Ellis, Sir G. Lloyd, G. W. Savery, Servington Elliston, G. S. Locker-Lampson, Comdr. O. S. Scott, Lord William Elmley, Viscount Loder, Captain Hon. J. de V. Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree) Emmott, C. E. G. C. Loftus, P. C. Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A. Emrys-Evans, P. V. Lumley, Capt. L. R. Smith, L. W. (Hallam) Errington, E. Mabane, W. (Huddersfield) Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen) Evans, Capt. A. (Cardiff, S.) MacAndrew, Lt.-Col. Sir C. G. Somervell, Sir D B. (Crewe) Everard, W. L MacDonald, Rt. Hn. J. R. (Scot. U.) Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Findlay, Sir E. MacDonald, Rt. Hon M. (Ross) Southby, Comdr. A. R. J. Fraser, Capt. Sir I. McEwen, Capt. H. J. F. Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L. Fyfe, D. P. M. McKie, J. H. Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Fylde) Ganzoni, Sir J. Maclay, Hon. J. P. Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'I'd) Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir J. Maitland, A. Storey, S. Glyn, Major Sir R. G. C. Makins, Brig.-Gen. E. Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.) Goodman, Col. A. W. Manningham-Buller, Sir M. Strickland, Captain W. F. Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral) Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Granville, E. L. Maxwell, S. A. Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F. Gretton, Col. Rt. Hon. J. Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J. Sutcliffe, H. Gridley, Sir A. B. Mills, Sir F. (Leyton, E.) Tasker, Sir R. I. Grigg, Sir E. W. M. Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest) Tate, Mavis C. Grimston, R. V. Moreing, A C. Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne) Glest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Drake) Morgan, R. H. Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.) Guinness, T. L. E. B. Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby) Gunston, Capt. D. W. Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.) Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford) Guy, J. C. M. Morrison, W. S. (Cirencester) Thomson, Sir J. D. W. Hacking, Rt. Hon. D. H. Munro, P. M. Titchfield, Marquess of Hamilton, Sir G. C. Neven-Spence, Maj. B. H. Touche, G. C. Hanbury, Sir C. Nicolson, Hon. H. G. Tree, A. R. L. F. Hannah, I. C. Orr-Ewing, I. L. Tryon, Major Rt. Hon. G. C. Harbord, A. Palmer, G. E. H. Tufnell, Lieut.-Com. R. L Harvey, G. Patrick, C. M. Wakefield, W. W. Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton) Peake, O. Wallace, Captain Euan Heilgers, Captain F. F. A. Peat, C. U. Ward, Irene (Wallsend) Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan. Percy, Rt. Hon. Lord E. Wardlaw-Milne, Sir J. S. Herbert, A. P. (Oxford U.) Perkins, W. R. D. Warrender, Sir V. Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth) Peters, Dr. S. J. Waterhouse, Captain C. Hills, Major Rt. Hon. J. W. (Ripon) Petherick, M. Wedderburn, H. J. S. Hopkinson, A. Pickthorn, K. W. M. Wells, S. R. Hore-Belisha, Rt. Hon. L. Pilkington, R. Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R. Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir R. S. Ponsonby, Col. C. E. Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.) Horsbrugh, Florence Porritt, R. W. Willoughby de Eresby, Lord Howitt, Dr. A. B. Pownall, Sir A. Assheton Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.) Raikes, H. V. A. M. Wise, A. R. Hulbert, N. J. Ramsay, Captain A. H. M. Womersley, Sir W. J. Hunter, T. Ramsbotham, H. Young, A. S. L. (Partick) Hurd. Sir P. A. Ramsden, Sir E. Jackson, Sir H. Rankin, R. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Jarvis, Sir J. J. Rathbone, Eleanor (English Univ's.) Sir George Penny and Lieut.-Colonel Joel, D. J. B. Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin) Sir A. Lambert-Ward. Jones, L. (Swansea, W.) Reed, A. C. (Exeter)
NOES. Adamson, W. M. Clusc, W. S. Gallacher. W. Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.) Clynes, Rt. Hon. J. R. Gardner, B. W. Ammon, C. G. Cocks, F. S. Garro-Jones, G. M. Anderson, F. (Whitehaven) Compton, J. George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R. Cove, W. G. Green, W. H. (Deptford) Banfield, J. W. Cripps, Hon. Sir Stafford Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. Barnes, A. J. Daggar, G. Grenfell, D. R. Barr, J. Dalton, H. Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.) Batey, J. Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton) Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth) Bellenger, F. Davies, S. O. (Merthyr) Groves, T. E. Benson, G. Day, H. Hall, G. H. (Aberdare) Broad, F. A. Dobbie, W. Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) Brown, C. (Mansfield) Ede, J. C. Hardie, G. D. Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (S. Ayrshire) Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.) Harris, Sir P. A. Burke, W. A. Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty) Hayday, A. Cape, T. Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H. Holland, A. Chater, D. Foot, D. M. Hollins. A. Hopkin, D. Marshall, F. Short, A. Jagger, J. Mathers, G. Silverman, S. S. Jenkins, A. (Pontypool) Maxton, J. Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe) Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath) Messer, F. Smith, E. (Stoke) John, W. Montague, F. Smith, Rt. Hon. H. B. Lees. (K'ly) Jones, A. C. (Shipley) Morrison, Rt. Hoi. H. (Ha'kn'y, S.) Smith, T. (Normanton) Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Stephen, C. Kelly, W. T. Naylor, T. E. Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.) Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T. Owen, Major G. Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth) Kirby, B. V. Paling, W. Thorne, W. Lansbury, Rt. Hon. G. Parker, H. J. H. Thurtle, E. Lawson, J. J. Parkinson, J. A. Tinker, J. J. Leach, W. Pethick- Lawrence, F. W. Viant, S. P. Leonard, W. Potts, J. Walkden, A. G. Leslie, J. R. Quibell, J. D. Watkins, F. C. Logan, D. G. Richards, R. (Wrexham) Watson, W. McL. Lunn, W. Ritson, J. Westwood, J. McEntee, V. La T. Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Brom.) Wilkinson, Ellen McGhee, H. G. Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens) Williams, E. J. (Ogmore) MacLaren, A. Rothschild, J. A. de Williams, T. (Don Valley) Maclean, N. Rowson, G. Wilson, C. H. (Attercliffe) MacMillan, M. (Western Isles) Salter, Dr. A. Woods, G. S. (Finsbury) MacNeill, Weir, L. Sanders, W. S. Young, Sir R. (Newton) Mainwaring, W. H. Seely, Sir H. M. Mander, G. le M. Sexton, T. M. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Marklew, E. Shinwell, E. Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Charleton.
Message from the Lords
Water Resources and Supplies,—That they have appointed a Committee consisting of seven Lords to join with the Committee of the Commons to consider and report on measures for the better conservation and organisation of Water Resources and Supplies in England and Wales pursuant to the Commons message of Tuesday last.
Voluntary Hospitals (Paying Patients) Bill [Lords]
Read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Thursday next, and to be printed. [Bill 60.]
Orders of the Day
British Shipping (Continuance of Subsidy) Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
4.11 p.m.
I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
The Financial Resolution on which this Bill is based was moved last week by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade, who then gave cogent reasons for believing that the continuance of this subsidy would be of benefit not only to tramp shipping but to all British merchant shipping. There are some Members of the House who believe that the results of the subsidy are not as beneficial on the whole as we were entitled to expect when we made a grant of £2,000,000 to tramp shipping. Perhaps I may be allowed to review the result of the grant which was made and of the use which has been made of it. As the House knows, tramp shipping is one of the most valuable elements in the British Mercantile Marine. On national grounds there is everything to be said for preserving tramp standards in efficiency, in capable manning, in ingenious management, in difficult and far-distant navigation. If the number of tramp ships goes down it affects not only shipping and the shipbuilding industry, but a hundred other things as well. Shipbuilding goes up or down with the prosperity of shipping as a whole. In depressed times, when freights are low, it is obvious that there can be few or no ships built out of the reserve funds, the depreciation accounts, the obsolescence accounts which are an essential part of all mercantile trading.
It became a matter of grave concern to us two years ago when the financial strength of so many of the tramp shipping companies had gone down to such a low ebb that they were unable to place orders. Two years ago it looked as though the shipbuilding yards which were dependent upon tramp orders would have to be closed down one and all. There were very few men who, however enterprising they were, were able to command the necessary finance with which to build new ships. They were, indeed, at that time not even earning depreciation. From all the returns that could be obtained it became clear that the depreciation accounts were far in arrears, that dividends could not be paid, that the upkeep of vessels was strained to the limit, and that from time to time we were adding to the number of the unemployed among the seafaring classes rather than reducing it. When as a result of other national policy a large number of unemployed people were getting back into regular work, shipbuilding remained stagnant and the numbers of sailors, firemen and engineers ashore who were unemployed were on the increase rather than the decrease.
Those tendencies of constant financial debilitation, and failure to extend our fleets and to keep pace with the commercial fleets under other flags, and the fact that we were not supporting a very large section of our seafaring classes, and the ultimate effect that this was likely to have on the strength of this country in time of war, were all considerations which weighed with us. As the result of very careful consideration and examination we came to the conclusion that there were two things that could be done, and, as far as we could see, only two, to restore the position of tramp shipping. The first was to provide for a running subsidy, at all events for 12 months; and the second was to provide some means by which shipbuilding could be revived without at the same time adding so materially to our merchant fleets as to undo the good by a surplusage of new tonnage which, though we hoped it would benefit the shipbuilding industry, might react adversely on merchant shipping as a whole.
In the year 1935 the House granted £2,000,000. That £2,000,000 has been spread out over the whole of the tramp fleets under the United Kingdom flag. During the period of the grant, these-companies have been able to make ends meet, but, as far as we can ascertain, have been able to do no more than that. It has also drawn a large number of vessels away from the buoys where they had been laid up, and I am glad to say that at the end of 1935 the number of vessels laid up was under 180—I think. 178 or 179. Those were vessels many of which would not return to their old regular traffic. They were probably laid up for good, and would have been sold sooner or later for scrapping or for use for other purposes. That was a very great change from the condition in which we had found the merchant fleet a year before, when double that number of vessels were laid up, a very large number of them first-class boats quite capable of holding their own in normal times and a real credit to the flag.
We are now able to sum up the result of what happened last year. It is quite true that public money was voted for the preservation of this industry, and one of the charges made against the Government by the Opposition to-day is that there has been an expenditure of public money towards the promotion of private interests. What private interests have benefited from this grant? The companies and the personal owners, certainly; the officers, the engineers and the men, certainly: the shipbuilding and ship-repairing industries, certainly; and, if you do not go any further than that range of industries and interests, I would say that the granting of this public money to these private interests was fully justified. If shipowning as we understand it to-day in this country is a private interest, so also are navigation and engineering and manipulation both in port and on the high seas; and we are not repentant, and have no reason to be repentant, for having made a grant which benefits these private interests.
At the very outset I mention them because the right hon. Gentleman opposite appears to have overlooked the fact that you cannot separate the interests of the shipping companies from the interests of those whom they employ. We have seen that during the last two years. Two years ago, when these vessels were idle, thousands of men were walking about the streets of our great ports unemployed. Now, as the result of the subsidy and what has sprung from the subsidy, those numbers have been materially reduced, and, as a result of the conditions which we have attached to the granting of the subsidy, it has now become quite clear that we can support almost all the British seamen who are available. Already I find—and perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will be sur- prised to hear this—that in many directions there is a shortage of British seamen. There are several United Kingdom ports where it is almost impossible to make sure of getting British crews when they are wanted. We want to see our vessels manned as far as possible by British, and British first and foremost.
Let me take the next point which appears in the Amendment on the Paper —that no steps have been taken to secure efficiency in the industry. What is meant by that? It is certainly not the efficiency of those who navigate the ships; I know that the right hon. Gentleman will not call them in question. Indeed, no one is justified in calling them to account, for they have as fine a record as any navigators in the world. They are in the very happy position of having a better record in the British merchant fleet than in almost any other. Is it, then, the management of these fleets that is referred to? I would like to point out that, so far as management is concerned, a. great many of the less competent managers have disappeared. Pressure of hard times has, unfortunately, disposed of them. [HON. MEMBERS: "Unfortunately?"] Very unfortunately. I am very sorry to see anybody go out of business. I am not like hon. Members opposite, who take such a hard view of the competitive world.
The efficiency of those who manage these merchant fleets is called in question mostly by those who have no experience whatever of the management of shipping in any one of its three great sections—cargo carrying under tramp conditions, cargo carrying under liner conditions, and the passenger service. The efficiency which I presume the right hon. Gentleman has in mind is not covered, therefore, by the practical working of these boats or the chartering of them. What, then, is meant by efficiency? I can tell the right hon. Gentleman what we mean by it in granting this large sum of money. In the case of the tramp shipping companies we desired in the first place that it should be the father of a real measure of organisation in that industry, and we made that one of the conditions on which the money was granted. Secondly, we made it a condition that they must not dissipate the subsidy by internal com- petition; and, thirdly, we wished to promote the greater employment of British tramp ships as a whole.
It is easy to show that a real measure of organisation in the industry has already been achieved. I venture to say that nothing more remarkable than the way in which this very highly competitive industry has settled down to the organisation of the freight markets has been experienced in our time. It is a very remarkable thing that, in the trades where the regulation has proved effective, mainly, the River Plate, the Canadian and some Eastern trades, there have been during this last year nearly 1,500 charters. I believe the actual number, as nearly as I can ascertain it, is 1,482 charters in the regulated trades.
There has not been a single case of Infringement of these schemes by any ship under the British flagi—not one. There have been, as far as we can tell, six or seven infringements by foreign vessels, but not one by ours. I do not believe that anyone who has any intimate knowledge of the organisation of British shipping would ever have imagined that within 12 months it would have been possible so to arrange and organise that industry that very nearly 1,500 charters were signed in the course of the year, all of them on a sound minimum freight basis without any dishonourable black-legging, understandings, or discounts. That is one of the achievements in organisation, and I do not suppose that the right hon. Gentleman objects to it. I presume that even in a State scheme it would be regarded as beneficial that for the State fleet and whatever was associated with it there should be a minimum freight level below which freights should not fall.
That has been achieved without adding materially to the cost of raw materials or food imported into this country, which in itself is a considerable achievement. We have got rid, therefore, in the most valuable tramp shipping trades, of the dissipation of the subsidy by internal competition. We have certainly achieved the employment of a greater number of British tramp ships, and a very much smaller number are now laid up. In addition to that—and I lay great stress on this point—we have been able, by the use to which this subsidy has been put, to provide for a more universal recognition of the National Maritime Board's wage scale, and we have been able to improve the conditions under which many of our men serve in home waters as well as abroad. I turn now to some of the criticisms which are offered by the right hon. Gentleman's party and in the Amendment on the Paper. Complaint is made in the Amendment that we have given inadequate protection to life at sea. I would point out in the first place that the obligation to abide by our Merchant Shipping Acts and by the Orders for the greater safety of life at sea does not depend upon the grant of a subsidy at all. It is a duty imposed upon masters and owners irrespective of whether they receive the subsidy or not. If there is an infringement of the Merchant Shipping Acts, there is an obligation on the Board of Trade to inquire, to inspect, and if necessary to prosecute; and it must be within the memory of Members of the House that in some cases, unfortunately, we have had to put the law in motion to protect those very interests. The provisions of the Merchant Shipping Acts apply to a much wider class of British shipping than the class to which we are now proceeding to grant a renewed subsidy. I will say something about safety at sea before I sit down, but I would like at once to pass to the next point raised in the Amendment, that no steps have been taken to
Does the Board of Trade take credit for all this? The point of the Amendment is that it refers to the Board of Trade, not the National Maritime Board.
I do not wish to slide off on that at all. I am only pointing out that under our Mercantile system it is possible to obtain justice for our men without having to come to blows about it. The National Maritime Board comes directly into this matter, and so does this House, for the subsidy is only granted to those who apply the National Maritime Board's scale. That is one of the conditions under which they obtain their subsidy.
Does the right hon. Gentleman say that justice has been obtained?
I venture to say that that which has been agreed to by the officers, men. and engineers as well as by the shipowners, is an agreement that we ought to respect. There is no justification for us here, with our much less knowledge and with the much less time that we have been able to devote to the details of the industry, to quarrel with the results they have achieved.
Surely that is quite a different thing. They may be content to accept something as the best they can secure at the moment by negotiation, but that does not mean that they obtain justice.
If they get the best that can be secured, surely that is a considerable advance. I have not yet come to the end of the services rendered by the National Maritime Board. I have mentioned the sailors and firemen, and in connection with them I would point out that the last quarter of the cut is the only one which remains, and that is down for discussion at some future date. I am very glad it has been possible to have a restoration of the cuts to which all classes of those employed in our ships subjected themselves with the greatest loyalty to the industry which they wished to support. With regard to the navigating and engineering officers, a settlement was reached last Friday between the navigating and engineering officers' panels and the National Maritime Board with regard to officers' rates of pay. That is also one of the decisions which is enforced on those vessels which obtain a portion of the subsidy. "The officers' representatives welcome the new schedule" —I quote the exact words— "as one of the finest achievements of the Board." We might equally commend that in this House.
From that aspect of the employment of our people I turn to the conditions which are also imposed by the Tramp Shipping Committee upon those who employ foreign seamen. I hope that as one result of this subsidy being renewed for a further year we shall see the last of the Chinese leave our ships when they trade in our own ports. In Chinese waiters the matter is different, but I hope that we have come to the end of the employment of Chinese seamen in vessels which enter our ports. This has been achieved as a direct result of the conditions which were attached to the subsidy.
Does that also apply to the Lascar labourers?
They are in rather a different class. As the hon. Gentleman knows, a certain portion of the Lascar labour which is employed on British ships is composed of men who are recruited very largely in their own waters, and I should not wish to see them displaced; but naturally I object, as do other people, to the employment of Chinese or other Asiatics in our own waters when there is no reason for their being employed here. I gather that the gravamen of the charge against us—which my right hon. Friend the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) made clear—is that the Board of Trade itself does not undertake the working of all these various machines. They have organised themselves and they are composed of the various elements dependent upon merchant shipping, but I am glad to say that all of them have been able to co-operate during the last 12 months in the desire which we have to make British ships more characteristically British and to give us a chance of conserving that tramp element which is of such great value to this country.
It seems to be suggested that this is a good opportunity for criticising the administration of the Board of Trade. I have already given to the House—and I think there is no need to repeat it to-day —a list of the steps taken to inquire into some of the very difficult subjects which came up for examination before what may be called the Merrivale inquiries. Developments covering manning, steering gear, ship surveys, seaworthiness, overloading and other subjects are being given the closest examination. I will say frankly to the House that, so far as these subjects are concerned, I do not believe we have or ought to have hard-and-fast rigid rules. I believe our safety code ought to be under constant review, that it should be improved from time to time, and that we should never regard the last word as having been said. We are prepared to join with other countries in improving our standards and in raising them as high as possible. Indeed, I think in the past we have succeeded in taking the lead in these matters, and we are not likely to abandon that effort now.
Therefore, so far as we have had powers granted to us in the distribution of subsidies, I say that we have used our influence to the full; but the other administrative powers of the Board of Trade, which it would not be in order for me to discuss in detail to-day, lead to a constant examination of subjects covering almost every section and item of the merchant ship as we know it in modern times. I have had handed to me to-day a long list of Merchant Shipping Acts passed since 1906, and I think the House will be surprised to hear that there have been no fewer than 19 different Acts of Parliament constantly improving the standards which our vessels employ. That list does not include a number of other Acts which have an in direct influence on or connection with merchant shipping and it shows how active has been the administration of our safety regulations and how necessary it is that we should keep them constantly under review.
Before I sit down I would like to say a word or two on the subject of the safety which has been obtained on our British vessels. One of the reasons why a great many people travel under the British flag instead of travelling otherwise and why the insurance rates at Lloyds are so low for vessels flying the British flag, is that on the whole we are able to show a better record of safety than that of any other flag. I do not like to boast on that subject, for one is always nervous about what may happen at sea, but over the last 20years there has been a continuous improvement. Even if we allow for the lamentable losses in the North Atlantic the winter before last, we still have a wonderful record of safety. For instance, during the 10 years from 1926 to 1935 only 13 passengers on the average were lost each year. If one considers the immense number of passengers who travel on British ships, that is a most remarkable record.
Are we not discussing the subsidy for tramp shipping?
In referring to safety at sea, it is impossible to restrict one's remarks to tramp vessels. If the figures for tramp vessels are taken, I do not think the record will be any worse. The crew figures are much higher —93, which is the average for that 10-year period. Even allowing for that, lamentable as it is, I say that the record is a remarkable one, and I hope it will still be improved as time goes on. Certainly the Department will do everything that can be done to maintain those high standards. I beg to move the Second Reading of this subsidy Bill, believing that it has done good in the organisation of British shipping, has made a great contribution towards the better employment of our people, has done much to help the shipbuilding industry, has kept the ports active and has justified itself.
On a point of Order. Would it be in order for me to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will give an assurance that none of the £2,000,000 has been diverted to the construction of the "Queen Mary", and that if this subsidy is continued it will be confined to the tramp shipping industry?
I think the hon. Gentleman has got on the wrong tack, if I might say so. The assistance given to the "Queen Mary" has nothing to do with this subsidy.
4.42 p.m.
I beg to move, to leave out from "That" to the end of the Question, and to add instead thereof:
Let me remove at once a misconception which appears to exist on the benches opposite regarding our attitude towards the mercantile marine. We do not dissent from the proposition that the British mercantile marine should be well equipped, maintained in. a state of efficiency, and thus contribute to the industrial prosperity of the nation. Whatever our views may be regarding this subsidy, there is general agreement that the British mercantile marine is one of the principal bulwarks of our prosperity. On that head there is no difference whatever, but when we examine the grounds upon which this subsidy was originally advanced, there is a fundamental divergence of view. In his opening statement the right hon. Gentleman seemed, it appeared to me, to justify the provision of this subsidy on the ground that it had promoted efficiency in the mercantile marine and had materially contributed to better conditions for seamen, in particular, as regards wage rates. From that are we to assume that prior to the provision of the subsidy there was no efficiency in the British mercantile marine? Of course not. Then why speak of efficiency in the British mercantile marine as if it had anything to do with the provision of this subsidy?
As can be proved by abundant evidence no improvement that has manifested itself in respect of seamen's conditions—there are differences of opinion in regard to that—has anything to do with the provision of this subsidy and ought not to be allied with the subsidy itself. As I understand it, the principal grounds upon which the subsidy was originally demanded and provided, were two. The first was that British shipping was placed at a disadvantage which ultimately, resulted in a state of acute depression because of subsidies provided by foreign maritime nations for tramp shipping. That is the first ground upon which this subsidy was originally advanced. The second ground was that British shipping suffered seriously because of the low wage rates which were paid to foreign seamen and officers abroad. What are the facts in relation to these two primary issues—the grounds upon which the subsidy was provided and the grounds upon which its continuance is being demanded? It was generally understood in the House on the Committee stage of the Financial Resolution, because of statements made from the Treasury Bench and from the benches behind them, that practically every maritime nation owning tramp shipping provided subsidies. That was the impression that hon. Members opposite sought to convey. The hon. and gallant Member for Barkston Ash (Colonel Ropner) agrees that that was the impression which was sought to be conveyed as a justification for the provision and the continuance of the subsidy.
I agree, if the hon. Member will put in the qualification, "direct or indirect assistance"; not merely a direct subsidy by other nations.
I am much obliged to the hon. and gallant Member. I will take him on either ground—by "direct or indirect" subsidies provided by other maritime nations for tramp shipping. It seems to me that we are quite clear on that. What are the facts? I placed a question on the Order Paper about a week ago, and to-day I received an answer. I make no complaint about the delay. I think that delay was necessary in the circumstances, because the fullest information should be conveyed to the House upon this important issue. In the answer which the President of the Board of Trade gave in response to my interrogation he informs me that there are only two other maritime nations, Italy and Spain, providing direct subsidies for tramp shipping, and only one other nation, France, providing an indirect form of subsidy to tramp shipping. Where is Greece, a formidable competitor in a maritime sense? Where are the Scandinavian countries, Norway, Sweden and Denmark, with their huge and growing fleets in competition with British shipping? Where stand the Netherlands, another formidable competitor? Where are Estonia and Latvia and other maritime countries trading particularly in the Baltic? There never was nor is there now the slightest justification for the provision and the continuation of this subsidy to British tramp shipping on the ground that was originally advanced— that we are merely providing a subsidy to put ourselves on a basis as favourable as that provided for tramp shipping in other countries. Those are the facts of the case, which must be true since the Government have furnished the answer. Therefore, I submit that there is no reason why this Bill should be accepted by the House.
Now I come to the second ground upon which the subsidy was provided. I refer to wages. It was assumed in the previous Debate, in consequence of statements made on the other side, and I think to some extent accepted by hon. Members on this side who were probably not fully informed of the facts, that wage rates paid in foreign maritime countries were much less than those paid in Great Britain. Unfortunately for that contention the International Mercantile Marine Officers' Association, in 1932, compiled statistics in relation to this matter. I will furnish the House with the results of their investigations. Taking an average tramp vessel of approximate tonnage and with an aproximate number of officers and men, the monthly figures show that the wage costs—I speak of wage costs alone at this stage—amounted in the United States of America to £889, in Holland £429, in Denmark £377, in France £367, in Sweden £336 and in Great Britain £335. Those wage costs place us in the category of seventh on the list. Why all this talk about wage rates being higher in this country than abroad and why use that argument, unsubstantial as it appears to be, in support of the contention that British shipping is unfavourably placed compared with the low-wage costs abroad? There is no truth in the statement. What applies to seamen applies in greater measure to the officer class, because the monthly wage bill worked out by the Association showed that wage costs for officers placed this country twelfth on the list. Therefore we find that instead of Great Britain paying higher wages and having to face higher wage charges we are faced with lower charges and we pay lower wages than other foreign maritime countries have been doing.
Something was said by the right hon. Gentleman about the effect of the subsidy. He tried to convey to the House the impression that the result of the subsidy had had an effect on the recent negotiations and wage rates of British seamen. He stood in a white sheet, pretending that as the result of his legislation the seamen have profited. Again, what are the facts?. To begin with, the restoration of 25 per cent. of the cut, which was agreed upon by the Maritime Board—not a Government body, so that the right hon. Gentleman cannot claim any responsibility or credit for what occurred—only means, and this is a most surprising thing, not merely for tramp shipping but for all the shipping of the country, an extra £240,000 per annum. That is the total amount which the ship owners will be called upon to pay to British seamen and British officers as a result of the restoration of the 25 per cent. cut. Surely, the right hon. Gentleman is not going to use that restoration as a justification for the provision of this subsidy.
The hon. and gallant Member for Barkston Ash, when he was speaking on this subject and referring to the need for providing a subsidy, declared that he was not prepared to vote in support of it. That was extraordinary self-effacement, amounting almost to martyrdom, on the part of the hon. and gallant Member, but he forgot to remind the House that his friends would go into the Lobby in support of the proposal and he forgot to remind the House that he sits on the administrative committee responsible for the dispensation of the fund which the Government have placed at their disposal. He is on the National Maritime Board as an owner of tramp shipping. Is it not amazing that as a British shipowner and a member of this House who dispenses money provided by the Government he is not prepared to give more than a partial restoration of the cut? The fact of the matter is that the Government have no claim whatever to use the wages issue as a justification for the provision of public money in this form.
I want to put the general case as I see it in relation to the demand by tramp shipowners, and the willingness of the right hon. Gentleman to comply with their request. Why should shipowners receive public money? Is there any justification for the payment of public money to private interests, particularly when shipowners have constantly resented Government interference? How often have these arrogant, haughty shipowners declared that the Government should keep its hands out of their business? The right hon. Gentleman's venerable father, of whom I speak with the greatest respect, said, a little more than 12 months ago, that it was an outrageous thing to ask the Government for assistance; it was all wrong and totally inconsistent with the declared policy of the shipowners of the country. Now, these individualistic shipowners, who were able to stand on their own legs in the past, who boasted of their efficiency and bragged of their achievement in face of competition throughout the maritime world, are coming forward piteously, lining up in a most pathetic fashion in the queue and asking for the Government dole, without any question of a means test.
The right hon. Gentleman stood there and pretended he was explaining this Measure to the House, but he explained nothing at all. There were a few generalities, a. few platitudes, about the efficiency of the Mercantile Marine, but there was no explanation as to the process of dispensing Government funds. Gould the Parliamentary Secretary tell us who it is that has received the money in the past 12 months? I do not want him to tell us that the shipowners as a whole have received £2,000,000, although it is clear that that sum has been spent. There was no explanation in that regard in the White Paper submitted to the House, and I want the hon. Gentleman to tell us who it is that has received the money. For example, what has the firm of Ropner Brothers received? If he cannot tell us, perhaps the hon. and gallant Member for Barkston Ash will be able to tell us what he has received out of this subsidy. There are several other hon. Members associated with shipping firms. I do not know whether they are here to-day. There is the hon. Member for Paisley (Mr. Maclay), the son of a very worthy shipping sire, who played a very important part in the maritime affairs of this nation during the War, and long before the War indeed. He was not so active after the War, but he made some references to the need for the subsidy. Can we have any information as to what Maclay Brothers are receiving out of this subsidy? Can we have any information of any sort or kind as to what individual shipping firms are receiving, and also whether they are in need, whether there is distress, whether there is a substantial justification for providing them with financial grants at the expense of the public purse in order to bolster up their interests at this time or indeed at any-other time?
The fact is that they come begging to this House, and they ought to be ashamed of themselves. It is sheer impudence on the part of the shipowners, and not only do they acept £2,000,000 of subsidy, but they ask for more. Some hon. Members have declared—and I should like the opinion of the Parliamentary Secretary on this point—that this must go on for ever and ever without end. The remarkable thing about that is that when the Parliamentary Secretary introduced this Measure a little more than 12 months ago, he declared in effect that this was a temporary subsidy of but one year's duration; and now they come forward asking for more, and they will come forward next year and ask for more, perhaps accompanied by the liner companies lining up for Government assistance. If there is to be Government assistance—and I lay down now a definite principle which I believe will be acceptable to hon. Members behind me—there must, to begin with, be an adequate measure of control over the disposal of the amounts provided by the Government.
Do I gather then that the hon. Member is in favour of a means test?
If the hon. and gallant Member wants to know, I will tell him at once that when the Government introduce legislation providing a means test for every person in the country, and when incomes, salaries, and wages are apportioned on the basis of a means test, I will accept it, but I object to preferential treatment, a means test for some of my distressed constituents and Government grants without questions asked for shipowners, who, in my view, are not in need of any financial assistance. I submit that if we are to provide Government grants, there must be an adequate measure of control. Besides, why should we not have an assurance that the money will be returned? Why did not the shipowners go to the banks? Perhaps an answer is that they are in the hands of the banks, and maybe there is a further answer that the subsidy is being provided, not so much to satisfy shipping interests, as to satisfy banking interests, to recoup them for some of their losses or to give them confidence that some day their money will be returned. That may well be the situation.
Moreover, if there is to be a grant of public money, why leave it in the hands of those people who are to receive the money to administer the amounts? There ought to have been, in that regard at least, some definite measure of Government supervision. The right hon. Gentleman was a shipowner. I do not suppose he has any active shipping interests now, but it is very good to be kind to your friends. It is quite impossible to dissociate oneself from friendship, even when one sits on a Government bench, in view of past associations; and I can understand that the right hon. Gentleman is just the kind of person whom the shipowners want on that bench and at the Board of Trade, because if there is any money going, he is more likely to advance it than perhaps we might be in the circumstances. Anyhow, it seems to me that if there is money to be granted at this or any other time, there must be some more substantial justification for recourse to such a proceeding. We do not object to subsidies as a whole. Of course not. Subsidies are not inherently unsound. There may be occasions, such as perhaps the creation of a new industry which the State regards as essential to its economic and industrial well-being, when there may be a case for a subsidy, and there may be a case for a subsidy on other grounds, but a subsidy—
Would the hon. Gentleman tell me whether, apart from the creation of a new industry, the preservation of an existing national industry might come within the ambit of a subsidy?
Certainly. I am replying as simply as I can and, I hope, as sincerely as the hon. Gentleman desires me to do. Certainly, in certain circumstances, even for an old industry, a depressed industry, it might be desirable to provide a subsidy, providing the conditions are satisfactory to the State itself. But to pretend that the conditions have been complied with because something has been done, as the right hon. Gentleman pretends, on accommodation, on manning, and on wages, the restoration of the cuts, is, in my view, not the kind of condition which would serve to support a subsidy of this sort. I should like to know what has happened to the money. Can the Parliamentary Secretary say that, as a result of the provision of this subsidy and because of the provision of this subsidy— I ask him to note that sentence—tramp shipping has profited and has improved its position? That seemed to be the case of the right hon. Gentleman, but that is not the view of the shipping world as a whole. The Parliamentary Secretary seems to demur. Then let him reply, not to me—I do not matter in this regard— but to the shipping world itself. What are their views about the matter? You have had 12 months' experience of your precious subsidy, and, what is more, of freight co-operation, and I venture the opinion that perhaps freight co-operation may have had more to do with the improvement in the shipping world than the subsidy itself; and, over and above that, if there had been freight co-operation not 12 months but two years ago or five years ago, the subsidy would not have been required.
The shipowners have got themselves into difficulties, and they ought to extricate themselves from those difficulties. The Government have got the shipowners into difficulties. I remember reading a speech by Mr. Harris, who was about 18 months ago chairman of the British Chamber of Shipping, in which he said to the Government, "We have got to have a subsidy. You have employed the tariff device, you have created international restrictions, you have erected barriers against international trade, and you have almost destroyed the carrying trade. of this country, so now you must give us money to get us out of our difficulties." If the Government are to blame, I advise hon. Members opposite to get rid of the Government and to let us have a revision of policy. But let us come back to what the shipping world says. In the "Siren and Shipping," a shipping organ, I suppose, enamoured of shipping interests, I find, in one of the leading articles, the following statement: few more cargo ships carrying cargoes. That may be due to the ordinary development of trade, and there has been an improvement in trade in the past year. It may be much more due to that than to the provision of the subsidy.
I will depart from these issues to come to the second part of the Amendment. The right hon. Gentleman made a great song and dance about what has been done for the seamen. This morning a White Paper was produced—the report of the Merchant Shipping Advisory Committee on the deck manning of foreign-going cargo vessels—precisely the vessels which we are now discussing. The right hon. Gentleman, in reply to some questions from this bench in the course of the Debate on the Financial Resolution, said that this report was expected very shortly. The report had not yet reached them, but immediately it did they would take the necessary action. What did he mean by "necessary action"? The Government have been talking about the necessary action ever since they have been in office, and they will go on talking about necessary action until they are removed from office, but whether the right kind of action will be taken, even following this report, is very questionable indeed. The right hon. Gentleman has no right to come down to this House and say, "I want a report on deck manning," or "I want a report on the accommodation on board shipping," or "I want investigations into crews' quarters or the question of steering gear." The information was in the possession of the Board of Trade years ago. It is true that some necessary revisions and adjustments are required to be made. You cannot revise the whole merchant shipping code at once. It would be a huge, a formidable, and, I think, an impracticable task. You have to proceed gradually, but there is a great deal that the Board of Trade could have done, and no one knows it better than the right hon. Gentleman, whose association with shipping and whose knowledge of shipping is so familiar to everybody in this House.
Now I come to the question of accommodation. The right hon. Gentleman declared in the Debate on the Financial Resolution that accommodation had been improved. I want to disillusion him. I want to deal with Cardiff. I take Cardiff because it is virtually a tramp port. A few liners come in or proceed outwards but it is a port that is almost exclusively devoted to tramp shipping and I take it as a typical case. I have here a startling statement in relation to the effects of unsatisfactory accommodation on board ship in a letter signed only in December last by the Medical Officer of Health. He states that 18 per cent. of the sufferers from tuberculosis in the 11 years 1924 to 1934 were seafarers and that the occupation of seafarers provided by far the greatest number of cases of tuberculosis. As a matter of fact the percentage is startling. There is no single occupation in the country where the percentage of tuberculosis is as high as in the case of the seafaring population. I have with me a chart which sets forth the progressive increase in tuberculosis over a period of years. We know that bad housing conditions contribute more than any other single factor to the propagation of tuberculosis among the shore population. It seems only reasonable, therefore, to assume that insanitary and dirty conditions of crew space afloat will have an equally bad effect in producing tuberculosis amongst seafarers. A copy is enclosed of a chart which shows that during the last four years there has appeared in ships coming to the port of Cardiff a progressive deterioration both in regard to structural defects and in respect of dirt and vermin. He goes on to say—I shall not shirk it—
To whom was that report addressed?
It was submitted to the Cardiff Town Council, and there is accompanying it an extract from a previous annual report for 1934. It reveals an astonishing state of affairs. Having made some inquiries about the Moor Line, with which the right hon. Gentleman is familiar, I discovered that one vessel reached Cardiff and, after the crew had been discharged, all kinds of objectionable inscriptions, some not very Parliamentary, were found in the fo'castle, from which one would gather that the crews' quarters were very unsatisfactory. I put it no higher than that. Some very rude things were said about the Moor Line, with which the firm of Runciman is closely associated. Anyone who has had experience of British tramp shipping knows that the crews' quarters are abominable. I do not pretend to have any technical knowledge of seafaring life but I have had a close association with seafaring men. There is not a single port in the country that I have not visited and not a single line of docks that I have not tramped, and I have visited over and over again the quarters on board tramp vessels.
During the War I was requested by the Government of the day to inspect the standard vessels on the Clyde, because there were complaints from the seamen's organisations about the accommodation. The accommodation was somewhat better than the accommodation of the average tramp vessel. The men were provided with cubicles instead of all sleeping together. Any one who has seen the quarters on a tramp vessel knows what that means—all tumbling over each other, doing all sorts of objectionable things which in the nature of the case could not be avoided. If officers can be provided with cubicles, in Heaven's name why cannot the seamen? The Parliamentary Secretary smiles. I understand he has boasted of his experience on board ship. I noticed somewhere some reference to nautical terms that he has used, conveying the impression that he had served some time on board ship. If he served a long time he would not long survive the accommodation. I have always regarded the accommodation on board ship as being one of the primary considerations. Life at sea is not too satisfactory at any time and, if better accommodation can be provided, it should be. The right hon. Gentleman has been doing nothing. That fact is borne out by the complaints that are now being made. [ Interruption. ] If he demurs, I had better remind him what he said in the Debate on the Financial Resolution. He said: It came into existence by procuring blacklegs during a strike. It has now become quite respectable and has been given the task of conducting an inquiry into accommodation on board ship. Why leave it to the Shipping Federation? Has the right hon. Gentleman no views on the subject?
We have not left it to the Shipping Federation. We have dealt with it through people who are entrusted with the construction and repair of vessels. We have taken every step to bring the accommodation up to standard.
In that case I had better read the whole of what the right lion. Gentleman said. I would much lather accept even the modified proposals that he has now made than what he said in the Debate on the Financial Resolution. He said:
"The question has been taken up with the Shipping Federation, who have appointed a committee to consult with the representatives of shipbuilders in order to make recommendations."
Who is going to make the recommendations, the shipbuilders or the Shipping Federation? Obviously those who pay the piper should call the tune, and those who pay for the building of the vessels should make the recommendations.
"In such a matter as this we cannot afford to have any second class."
That is merely a phrase.
"When the result of this consultation is known, the Board of Trade will revise their present instructions as to new ships and will also try to get improved accommodation on existing ships. This is not an easy problem to solve, and we are awaiting the recommendations of that committee as well."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 11th February, 1936; col. 853, Vol. 308.]
I still press my point. Is there no information in the possession of the Board of Trade relating to this matter? It has been investigated over and over again. If they have no information on which they could act they deserve condemnation. If they have information and have failed to act they deserve our censure. The right hon. Gentleman can have it either way. There is, of course, a great deal more to be said, and it will be said by hon. Members behind me. Our case against the subsidy rests first of all on the right hon. Gentleman's failure to demonstrate that it was rendered necessary because of the condition of British shipping in the past few years. More- over, we protest against a continuation of the subsidy because the shipowners have not displayed a readiness to provide rationalisation schemes in order to meet the formidable competition from abroad. Moreover, we condemn the provisions of the subsidy because the shipowners do not appear to be personally in need of funds and, over and above all that, we condemn it because the Government provides no adequate measure of control by the State and because seafarers, men and officers alike, are not in receipt of those conditions, wages, food or accommodation, to which the Labour party believe them to be entitled.
5.28 p.m.
The hon. Gentleman has given us an incisive and closely-reasoned speech such as we were accustomed to hear from him in a previous Parliament. I am very glad of the opportunity to hear him again. I have pleasure in listening to so closely woven and logical an argument as he presents us with, but I disagree with him as to the necessity of any long argument upon this question. We have had a very considerable number of disquisitions upon the matter during the last few days. The speech that we have just heard, no doubt, presents the point of view of many Members of the party opposite. It would seem in the result that subsidies can only be justified if they are granted by a Socialist Government, or otherwise they can only be justified in the particular instances of grants to people who might be, in the generality of cases, disposed to support them. I am not going to argue whether we should have a Socialist or an individualist regime. To-day we are governed more or less upon individualistic principles, I have no doubt that when hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite have the opportunity of putting their ideas into practice they will give us legislation of a different character, but in the meantime we are living under a Government which for a certain course of action obtains a majority of the House.
I look at the shipping industry from a practical point of view. What are we to do about it at the present time? I have no doubt that when the hon. Gentleman opposite and his party come into office, and he is given the position of President of the Board of Trade, as he may well be, he will like to see a live and virile shipping industry. If it is to be so when he gets the opportunity of taking over that office, it is obvious that something must be done about it to-day, and the question is what are we to do? I would call the House back to some recollection of the history of British shipping. We have not historically deserved the diatribe of criticism poured upon our heads to-day. What has been the position of British shipping in the world? It has led all nations of the world in the conduct of ships. We have had the credit of paying the highest wages that have been paid upon any ship in the world, with the exception of America. The hon. Gentleman quoted some figures from a, particular document. They were composite figures which, I confess, I did not quite follow, as to wage costs taken over all. It has been notorious; anybody who has known anything about the shipping of the world—it has certainly been so for the period of my lifetime—was aware that British sailors were the highest paid to be found upon any ships at sea, with the exception of the United States of America.
I have some figures with regard to the relative wage rates of able seamen upon various ships of the world which entirely contradict the figures which have been given to us. In Great Britain, the able seaman gets £8 6s. 6d. per month, the Belgian £5 14s. 11d., the Dane £7 1s. 1d. and the Finnish seaman £3 12s. 9d., and in some cases £3 17s. 2d. I gather that that probably is owing to some difference between whether the man provides his own food or not. In many cases you have to analyse the figures presented from the point of view as to whether the man provides his own food. In France the able seamen get £7 16s. 11d. France, Germany and Holland are on the gold standard, and it must not be forgotten that it takes a larger amount of sterling to meet a certain amount of gold. These people are not getting in real wages, in spite of what they are getting in gold, as much as the seamen upon British ships. The German nominal figure works out at £8 8s. 5d. in gold and the Dutch figure at £11 Os. 8d. in gold. The Greek gets £4 16s., and the Italian £7 15s. 1d. Italy, again, is a country which is professedly on the gold standard. The Japanese get £2 6s. 9d., and the Norwegians £7 4s. 9d., which is more than £l less than what is given to the British seaman. In Spain, the figure is £3 13s. 8d., and in Sweden it is £7 16s. 8d., which again is 10s. less than is given to the British seaman. Similar figures are available with regard to firemen. These are fantastic figures to be tested at any time by reference to the actual experience of these seamen. It is fantastic to come to the House with an assertion, which anybody who has practical experience has known throughout the whole of his lifetime to be entirely contradictory of the facts.
Not only have British ships provided higher wages for their seamen, but they have applied conditions of load-line and otherwise which undoubtedly have raised the cost of running British ships. It is well known that many foreign ships in the old days, and in quite recent days, were loaded in a way in which no British ship would be allowed to go to sea, and yet these foreign ships were allowed to come into British ports and trade in competition with their British rivals. To a considerable extent that condition has been altered to-day owing to international conventions with regard to load-line, but the House may take it from me, as a matter of experience, that regulations are not administered in anything like the same degree of rigidity with regard to foreign ships as they are to British ships. Anybody acquainted with the shipping industry is well aware of that fact. Many general rules are laid down with regard to the conduct of foreign affairs in other countries which find very little application here.
Through all the periods of which I have been speaking, the British shipowner may be said to have been, in some degree, handicapped by these greater calls upon him, but no British shipowner ever complained. They were prepared to endure all the competition from these cheaper-run foreign ships and to carry on their business with the skill and success which had always followed their operations. But a new set of circumstances emerged in comparatively recent times. After the War there was a tremendous glut of shipping. There were far more foreign ships on the sea than had ever been previously experienced, and, in addition, a custom had grown up of granting subsidies for the running of foreign ships. The right hon. Gentleman stated that there were only two countries in Europe —I am not sure if he did not say only two countries in the world—that were providing subsidies for their tramp shipping.
Direct subsidies.
That, according to my information, is entirely incorrect.
Since the right hon. Gentleman seems to be under a misapprehension, may I say that my statement referred to a reply accorded me by the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade which I have before me. I put a question upon the Paper asking what foreign maritime countries provided subsidies to tramp shipping, and I was informed that there were only two in Europe—Italy and Spain.
I cannot understand such an answer. France gives very considerable subsidies to its shipping.
I mean direct subsidies.
The House seems to be suffering from a misquotation of a written answer to a question. The hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Shinwell) asked the President of the Board of Trade, the countries in Europe which provided subsidies to tramp shipping, and the amounts so expended in 1935, and according to the information available the answer stated that the most noteworthy examples of subsidies to tramp shipping-were those paid in Italy, Spain and France. Then followed a statement giving the amounts in those countries, the opening sentence of which stated that it was not exhaustive or complete.
The hon. Gentleman is now seeking to evade the point.
Not at all.
My question was quite simple and clear. I asked the right hon. Gentleman to state the countries in Europe which provide subsidies, and now the hon. Gentleman speaks of noteworthy examples, and perhaps if he knows of other examples he will be good enough to give them to the- House to-day.
I am not going to take any part in the differences between the two Front Benches on this matter. It is notorious that France gives direct subsidies to tramp shipping, which the hon. Gentleman opposite will not admit. Last year they amounted to 120,000,000 francs. If my memory does not betray me, something in that region was the amount of subsidy directly given by France to her tramp shipping or mercantile marine.
To her liner shipping.
Those acquainted with shipping know that one makes a different discrimination between the two categories of shipping. It is differently described in certain instances from the discrimination which operates here. At any rate, let me make it perfectly clear that in recent times, since the War, France's subsidising of shipping in competition with our tramp ships has enormously grown. There is no doubt whatever that traffics which in the old days used to be profitable became entirely unprofitable, and we have been faced not merely with the possibility, but the probability of our ships being driven off the sea. on a great many routes of the world which we used to control. One has only to look at the figures to see what has happened. One sees the enormous change which has taken place in the figures of the amount of shipping carrying cargoes throughout the world. If one looks at the figures of entrances; and clearances in our own ports one sees how greatly the situation has altered to our injury. Look at the variety of the returns of the shipping industry, and you will see that there are many who are unable to provide any depreciation at all for their ships. Many firms are entirely insolvent through conditions over which they have no control whatever, but which have arisen through these adventitious arrangements throughout the rest of the world.
Are we to sit down and do nothing about it? Does the hon. Gentleman opposite, when he proposes to come into office, wish to see a shipping industry entirely bankrupt and all the trade routes in the hands of our rivals? Is he prepared to contemplate such a position for an island Kingdom such as ours? It is obvious that one of the first duties of anybody acquainted with the necessities of this country is to bring back something of the prosperity of our shipping industry. How is it to be done? For a long time the shipping industry resisted any idea of getting a subsidy at all, even when many of their friends tried to point out how completely necessary it was if the industry was to be saved. In the end—and many of the lines certainly dissented from the decision arrived at—a subsidy amounting only to a very small sum compared with that granted by some foreign Powers—a sum of £2,000,000 sterling—has been granted to-day.
Hon. Members must now be aware that the subsidy has had a certain measure of success. The hon. Member tried to make play between the two different aspects of the question. They are not contradictory. The subsidy has saved the tramp shipping industry from going under, it is true, but the profits have not yet arrived. Even now some of the best shipping firms are scarcely able to provide for depreciation, let alone any profit. Nevertheless, the advantage of the subsidy is that it has checked the rot and saved the industry from the calamity which undoubtedly faced it. That is something for which we can be grateful but, obviously, it is not a situation in which we can let the subsidy cease. If you do the difficulty which faced the industry before the subsidy was granted will face it again. But things have improved. The Board of Trade estimates of the amount which shipping will yield to this country have increased during the last year by £5,000,000, from £70,000,000 to £75,000,000, which is a very valuable invisible export. The amount used to be vastly greater. At one time the shipping industry yielded something like £260,000,000 to the revenue of the country. We should all like to revive the shipping industry. It is quite erroneous for anyone to describe the present situation as due to the incompetence and inefficiency of our shipowners especially when you think of the glories they have been able to achieve during the time in which they have been actively employed, on the seas.
I resent deeply the scorn and the criticisms which have been poured upon the shipping industry and the attacks which have been made on those who have been operating the industry, as if they were entirely inefficient and careless about the conditions which exist in their ships. The truth is that in spite of the fact of the very high American wages you will find few British seamen who are willing to sail in American boats, few who are willing to exchange their occupation. That is a good test, because they would be transferring to a service in which the same language is spoken. Suppose we were living under the felicity of a Socialist Government, what would they do to meet the situation? I suppose they would put an immense extra burden on shipowners. I gather that they would suggest something which involves increased costs. The difficulty from which the industry suffers now is that its costs are higher than those of foreign ships which are aided by State subsidies. I gather that this supposititious Socialist Government might raise freight rates in order to deal with these increased costs. They could do that so far as ships going out from this country with cargoes are concerned; those are the only ships that they could control; but a large proportion of our revenue from shipping is derived not from the cargoes coming here but from cargoes which go from one part of the world to another exterior to British ports. If you put higher costs on these ships you will lose this traffic And what about raising the freights on home cargoes? It would mean that the costs for the remaining traffic would have to be raised.
Is not that the case of the President of the Board of Trade—that the shipowners, by virtue of the subsidy, have, in fact, got together and raised freight rates to the detriment of traders?
That is not putting it quite fairly. One of the results of eliminating certain elements of a cutthroat competition has been that we have been able to get cargoes in many instances at rates which enable us to meet the foreigner. A certain amount of reorganisation has been done in the shipping trade and a, very notable and successful effect of that reorganisation is that much traffic has been obtained which otherwise would have gone from us. This supposititious Socialist Government would end their career by raising the cost of everything which has to be purchased in this country and by making more expensive in every market of the world the things which we are seeking to export in order to exchange our exports for the imports we require. That kind of process is not going to do much good to the shipping industry or to the country. We have had examples in recent times of shipping lines run by governments, and all management administrations of governments in connection with shipping traffic have been disastrous. Whatever is said about the running of ships by shipowners it has never had such calamitous results as have been produced by the interference of governments. [An HON. MEMBER: "Russia."] I do not know why Russia is mentioned. She has not been very efficient so far as shipping is concerned. What she does is to impose direct restrictions and indirect subsidies in favour of her own ships. She is confining the whole of her trade both of goods going to Russia and of goods coming from Russia to her own ships and building up a mercantile marine on that basis. That is in her own selfish interests.
For my part, the subsidy has been entirely justified and I hope it will be continued under the arrangements which have been made. On the other hand, I say that it should be terminated at the earliest possible moment. That is the ideal at which to aim, but in the meantime hon. Members opposite now admit that it is absolutely essential to preserve the industry and to take effective means of dealing with it. If I have any complaint to make against the Bill it is on the ground that it does not go far enough. In a sardonic part of his speech the hon. Member said that we should have the liners coming forward in a queue and demanding a dole. I do not represent any case for the liners, but I think it is justified by the facts, and by what the Prime Minister said at Liverpool, that the liners were entitled to as much consideration and would get the help of the Government on a just case presented.
Let me give an example of shipping conducted by great lines which at the moment are in danger of disappearing unless help is given by the Government. There were running from Australia and New Zealand in past times two very notable lines, one of them connecting Australia and New Zealand with San Francisco and the other with Vancouver. They have been splendid lines and have put up a great fight for Empire shipping. What has happened in recent times? There has emerged a line, called the "Matson" line, heavily subsidised by the United States, which runs from San Francisco via Honolulu to Australia and New Zealand, but while British ships running from Australia and New Zealand are not allowed to land their passengers at Honolulu the American ships call gaily at Australian and New Zealand ports. In addition to this disability our ships have to compete with the Matson line subsidised to the extent of several hundreds of thousands of pounds per annum, and it is absolutely impossible for these British shipping lines to compete with the American line. I wonder what my Socialist friends would do in such circumstances?
Since the right hon. Gentleman has asked me a question may I put another one to him? What have the Dominions to say on this matter, particularly New Zealand?
That is not germane to my question. The hon. Member's question is not a riposte to mine. I ask, what is his answer to the problem? The result is very grievous. Very soon, because of the enormous losses which have been sustained, there will be a. closing down of the line between Australia and New Zealand and San Francisco. It cannot maintain its position. It is with great difficulty that they still run a line between Australia, New Zealand and Vancouver, but the losses have been so great that it is absolutely impossible for them to continue much longer. When that line is swept off the sea, good-bye to the British Flag in the Pacific. The all-red route around the world about which we used to boast, from Australia and New Zealand, via Vancouver and across Canada, will disappear, and we shall be at the mercy of the United States in so far as passages between three of our great Dominions, Australia, New Zealand and Canada are concerned.
The President of the Board of Trade has been sympathetic to the idea of action being taken on this matter. In particular I recall a speech which he made in the House in December, 1933, in which he said: on, saying: "The thing for this man is natural recovery." Those are circumstances as I think my right hon. Friend will agree in which natural recovery is beyond any possibility. Something has to be done to save the victim.
I gather from to-day's newspapers that Canada, in connection with this line, has increased its subsidy from £20,000 a year to £60,000 a year. That is a mere drop in the bucket. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] Yes, as compared with the subsidy which is being given to the American line. After all, you must look at the matter from a practical point of view and if America subsidises a line of that kind by hundreds of thousands, it is a drop in the bucket to give £60,000 to the British line. It only means that the money will be lost and the shipping line will not be saved. What is Great Britain going to do about this matter? I should have imagined that our Government would give a lead. I admit that the question which the right hon. Gentleman opposite put just now when he asked about the Dominions is a proper question. Well, Canada is acting and has acted yesterday in its Parliament, but I am certain that we have to give a lead to the other two Dominions and that they are waiting for us to do so. All my information is to that effect.
I hope that we are not going to lose British trade entirely in the Pacific Ocean, that our flag is not going to be hauled down there. That, above all things, would be to admit that our glory at sea had, at long last, departed. I appeal to my right hon. Friend in this matter. It is possible that there will be an opportunity of meeting some of the Dominion Statesmen at an early date, but, believe me, the sands are running out. There is little time in which to act and to lose such a line as this, would have the effect, not merely of destroying a great amount of employment in this country now engaged in the building of ships for that line, but also I think of doing permanent injury to the trade which we have hitherto enjoyed in that part of the world. I apologise for having occupied so much of the time of the House but the matter is of such importance that I feel we ought to pay attention to it at the present time, and I hope that my right hon. Friend is going to show practical activity on the lines of the sympathy previously expressed by him.
6.7 p.m.
I always understood from reports that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Horne) was an extraordinarily able special pleader, and I have never heard a man labour so much as he has laboured this afternoon in trying to make out a case for this subsidy. What are we going to do, he asks, about the condition of tramp shipping? We must do something, he argues, and something very drastic. He gave the cue when he referred to the parable of the Good Samaritan. It is all right to assist those who have fallen among thieves, but it is not those who have fallen among thieves who are to profit from this subsidy. Those who have fallen among thieves are the crews of the tramp steamers and they are not getting assistance. It is to the others that the subsidy is going. Have they got any wounds? I challenge any hon. or right hon. Gentleman, here to deny that the wounds which affect tramp shipping are self-inflicted, and when you find anyone suffering from self-inflicted wounds you may bind up the wounds but you will bind up those persons also and see that they are not left at liberty to continue the process.
I remember going to sea when I was carried away by the thought that a life at sea was all that it was cracked up to be. I remember being shipwrecked, and I remember the conditions that were imposed on the seamen, huddled together in the forecastle. The right hon. Gentleman opposite has not, I am certain, ever had such an experience or he would not have smiled when my right hon. Friend on the Opposition Front Bench was speaking about the accomodation on these ships. I also remember the treatment we got and the conditions under which we had to live, when we got on shore, until a ship came along to bring us home. So terrible were the conditions that I went to the head office of the shipping company in Glasgow and two policemen had to be brought to the office to persuade me to leave. They did so rather forcibly and not at all in the manner of the Good Samaritan. I have been round about many ports since that time. I have been in ships and I have examined the accommodation, and I say that practically no progress has been, made in the last 20 or 25 years in the accommodation provided. In many tramp ships to-day it is unspeakable and ought not to be tolerated.
What has been the history of this great and glorious mercantile marine? Of course, it has been built up because it has been first in the field and not because of any special merit on the part of those who own and control it and take profits out of it. Before the War it was a prosperous industry in the sense that it was making big profits and during the War there were profits galore. What happened to those profits? In 1915 the shipowners were getting a general rate for tramps of 13s. 6d. per ton per month and in 1918 the rate was raised to 17s. 6d. Enormous profits flowed into the pockets of the shipowners. At the end of the War freights were soaring but instead of utilising the money to build and prepare for the future we had the owners handing out increased stock to the shareholders and by that means increasing the profit. I wish to draw attention to one transaction that is very illuminating. Before doing so, I would refer to the fact that the exposure connected with the Royal Mail, when Lord Kylsant was sentenced to 12 months imprisonment, showed that there were individuals in charge of the shipping industry who were driving that industry to ruin and bankruptcy by their incapacity and greed. If we are going to help the shipping industry, we must recognise that it is not to be saved by a subsidy. If we are to save the tramp shipping industry, we must get rid of those who are in control of it at present. Let me give an example which occurred a number of years ago but which has a bearing on what is taking place now.
There was a company called the Western Counties Shipping Company. At the beginning of 1919 the Western Counties Shipping Company negotiated to buy out the Moor Line for £1,804,000 that is to say 82,000 tons at £22 per ton. This transaction was carried out and in March 1920 the Western Counties Company bought up the Sutherland fleet of 11 steamers at £24 5s. per ton. Out of this the Runciman line—for the Moor line had belonged to the Runciman crowd—were able to pay their shareholders in the Moor Line £14 for each £1 share. Then the Western Counties Company, having bought the Moor Line from the Runciman company and the Sutherland fleet at these enormous prices, went broke. These are the fellows who are said to have built up this great industry and to whom we are asked to pay honour. When this company went broke, the Runciman crowd got back the ships, which they had sold at £22 a ton, for £4 a ton. Are we to tolerate that sort of thing? Is there an hon. or right hon. Gentleman opposite who would be prepared to stand for it? You can go to any of the ships and find overloading and under-manning, boys being used instead of men, and ordinary seamen instead of able-bodied seamen. We are told about the glories of the British tramp steamers, but there is case after case where you could knock your fist through any part of the structure so bad is the condition.
There are Board of Trade regulations laying down that surveyors should give periodical examination of ships. The surveyors, however, tell the companies when they are going to examine such and such a ship. Can you imagine a milk inspector going to a milkman on his rounds and saying, "To-morrow or to-morrow week I am coming along to take a sample of your milk." Would they ever get convictions if they did that? They would get milk with cream in it every time. The Board of Trade tell the shipping company when the surveyor is coming. Every man in the dock is put on to dab a little red lead here, to do a little repairing there, and to clean the ship through. When the surveyor comes they are all there to receive him. When some people tell of the wonderful achievements in Soviet Russia, the enemies of the Soviet say that they have been on a conducted tour. There never was a conducted tour such as the conducted tours of surveyors when they go to examine these tramps.
Will the hon. Gentleman give the name of any ship which has gone to sea in an unfit condition because of a survey of the kind he has described?
The "Ullswater," the "Blairgowrie" and the "La Cres-centa." Why does the hon. Gentleman ask me such a foolish question?
I asked a question to which I have not had an answer about ships which have been surveyed in the way the hon. Member described and have, in consequence, gone to sea in an unfit condition.
I have here a letter from the captain of the "La Crescenta," in which, in writing home, he tells about the terrible condition of the ship and how the ship ought not to be at sea. These ships are surveyed regularly. The Board of Trade regulations lay down that they should be surveyed at least every two years. The regulations are carried out so far as surveying goes. At the inquiry info the loss of the "Blairgowrie" one of the witnesses, when asked why he refused to sail after signing on, said, "I was afraid to go on her. I had enough of the last trip. I was afraid she would go down." The wireless operator wrote to friends, and said, "I am half wishing now I had taken leave without pay, for this is the last word." I could give quotation after quotation which referred to the fact that when they are hammering a rivet in they knock a hole in the ship, and that one rivet after another fell out. Each of the three ships I have named were surveyed.
It does not matter how much money you pour into the tramp shipping industry, it goes through a sieve. If you want to save the tramp shipping industry it can never be saved with the men who are at present responsible for running the industry. They are not concerned with the industry or the ships or the men on them. They are concerned about one thing only, and that is profits. Until you get rid of the men whose one thought is profit, you cannot save the tramp shipping industry, no matter how many millions of pounds you put into it. The Government have a measure of control over tramp shipping and they ought to see that the regulations are applied in connection with the manning. I could take hon. Members down to many ships that come to the Port of London. Let us go some day. Why should not Members of the House go down and visit ships that come into the Port of London? They will find gross undermanning in nearly all the tramp ships. What applies to the Port of London applies to any other port. Whenever there is an opportunity of avoiding the regulation it is taken in regard to manning and overloading.
We should prevent by every means the pouring out of any further public money to the owners of tramp shipping who had splendid opportunities in the past for building up a mercantile marine when they had all the money in their hands, but they threw it down the drain. We should not spend a penny on these people, but should take drastic steps to put an end to their control in order to save tramp shipping and to provide proper conditions for the seamen. When reference is made to Soviet Russia, some hon. Members are inclined to laugh. I would like the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Billhead, the President of the Board of Trade and the Parliamentary Secretary to come with me and visit one of the Soviet ships at the London Docks. We could have a talk with the seamen and see the conditions under which they live. You would not find them huddled in the fo'c'sle. The rations for the captain and the crew are the same. Where a Socialist Government has control the best conditions operate for the seamen. The right hon. Member for Hillhead said that some people talk about better conditions in the American ships, but you do not find many British seamen in American ships. He did not tell us that it is not very easy for British seamen to get on American ships. I know from my experience of ships on the Atlantic that wherever a British seaman could get a job on an American ship he would do it.
I challenge the right hon. Member for Hillhead or the President of the Board of Trade to show me where you can find an American on a British ship. Americcans would not tolerate the conditions in a British ship. Let the President of the Board of Trade say whether he is prepared to accept my challenge to see how the seamen live on Soviet boats. Why should not hon. Members go to see the British ships and other ships that come into the port in order to investigate the question for themselves. I have worked in British ships and I have had to put up with the conditions in the fo'c'sle. I have had to put up with the food and the bullying and the generally bad conditions. I do not want to use the term "larceny," for it is a hard word, but the wounds from which the tramp shipping is suffering are self-inflicted and I would have many, if not most, of those associated with it put in gaol. That is where they ought to be. I appeal to the House to study the profits that were made during and after the War and how these profits have been wasted. If the Government would represent the best interests of the people of this country they will not pay a penny of subsidy but take an immediate drastic control of the industry. Once they have taken control of the organisation, then they could spend as much as they cared to make the tramp shipping industry a healthy, safe and well-paid employment for seamen.
6.27 p.m.
I do not propose to follow the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) through the various stages through which he has taken us, but I would like to draw the attention of the House to one or two facts that emerged from his speech as to the position of British shipping, and tramp shipping in particular, at the end of the War. That was the start of the difficulties in which our tramp shipping fell. Our shipping was controlled and directed, freights were controlled, voyages were controlled, and profits were curtailed and very highly taxed. Our competitors, on the other hand, 'were free, their rates were uncontrolled, their direction was untrammelled, their reserves were strengthened and they were able to renew their vessels. If hon. Members want to verify what I am saying, I suggest that they should read the letter issued by the Shipping Controller to the Chamber of Shipping of the United Kingdom and the Liverpool Steam Shipowners Association at the end of the War. In this he said:
"I have had to concentrate the carrying power of our ships on the shorter ocean routes upon which, in the course of the year, they could make the greatest number of voyages, and therefore bring in the greatest number of cargoes; and in doing this, I have been fully conscious that I have had to force many of you to abandon trades and business connections in every part of the world, which had taken you. at great cost, years of hard work to build up."
Everybody knows what it is like, once a trade or connection is abandoned, how difficult it is to recapture it. My opponents found that in West Birkenhead at the last Election. Tramp shipping suffers in particular from subsidised competition and Government-owned competition in foreign countries. There is not much difference between subsidised competition and Government-owned com- petition. In the case of Government-owned competition the taxpayer pays the loss, and in subsidised competition the taxpayer shovels along enough money to carry on. What is this £2,000,000 subsidy compared with the subsidies being given by other countries? It is nothing at all, a mere drop in the ocean.
Will the hon. and gallant Member be good enough to specify the nature of these subsidies and the amounts to tramp shipping in other countries?
The hon. Gentleman asked a question of the Board of Trade on that subject in the House to-day and was given some information, and yet he asks me to repeat the answer, and I do not propose to do it. He has found out, and knows perfectly well, that in the United States it is a question of millions. It is not only a subsidy towards the building of the ships but towards the running of them.
Tramp ships?
Yes, tramp ships in a great many cases. The hon. Member knows that quite well. He said there was no justification for picking the public purse. The justification will show itself, in particular, in about 10 years' time, when it becomes essential to find the money, which should have been put by for depreciation, to rebuild ships. There has not been enough money earned to pay for depreciation in the last few years and so to enable the ships to be replaced when the time comes.
Why?
Because freights have been so low, owing to subsidised competition. I am surprised that any hon. Member should ask a question like that. The hon. Member for Seaham Harbour (Mr. Shinwell) asked a question of the Board of Trade, and put it to the House in accordance with the answer he received, that there were only two competitive nations in which shipping was subsidised. I do not say for one moment that he endeavoured to deceive the House, but his question asked specifically about Europe, and the two largest competitors on the sea are not in Europe at all, but are the United States of America and Japan. He put the information in such a way that a great many people, unless they were listening very carefully, would fall into the trap of thinking that the competitors mentioned in Europe were the only two that mattered. He read a statement from "Siren and Shipping" that international rationalisation will have to be undertaken without delay. How does he propose to persuade other countries to join in that international rationalisation when they are busy subsidising their own steamers? The World Economic Conference failed because the world could not agree to that. I agree that a conference should be called to obtain some sort of world agreement, but does he consider that at the present moment such a conference would be of any real value? I do not think anybody else does.
I must point out that those who prognosticated in 1934 that a lowering of freights would result from the subsidy, and that the last stage would be worse than the first, have been thoroughly confounded in their prophecies. The opposite has been the result. A measure of discipline has come into a trade which, by its very nature, is given t foree trade and cut-throat competition. The almost impossible has happened, and everybody is delighted to see it. The Opposition in their Amendment are trying to attach to this Bill conditions which should be applied to the whole of the mercantile marine and not to one particular section. The question of adequate protection comes under the Merchant Shipping Acts and the question of wages is one for the Maritime Board. This is not a get-rich-quick subsidy but a fighting subsidy, as was said last time, and the necessity for it remains the same; and when profit does begin to come in will be the time to talk of "sharing the swag." When freights get up to the 1929 level, the subsidy will automatically cease, and we all hope and trust that this will happen in a very much shorter period than we anticipate. The Opposition are misdirecting a great amount of their energy. They are trying to live in the house before they have built it, in saying that all these conditions should be attached to this Bill. I am not going to quote the wages which the right hon. Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Horne) quoted, but will say merely that those wages, even when put into sterling at the current rates of exchange, have not the same purchasing power as wages in this country. The purchasing power of the wages of our seamen in this country is better than it is in any other country, especially in those countries on the Gold Standard, where the purchasing power is considerably lower and life is carried on with much more difficulty.
What is the remedy proposed by hon. Members opposite? The right hon. Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) revels in "penny dreadfuls." He always sees people with their fingers dripping with blood. Sometimes when listening to him I feel there is something to be said for the Nazi regime, and it is about the only time I ever do feel it. But what is his remedy? Before, it has always been nationalisation. I suppose that the tramp shipping industry is not sufficiently poor yet to be nationalised, but will be in due course. Anything that is unsuccessful must be nationalised, must have the golden touch applied to it to put it right. Nationalisation will not remove a single foreign subsidy or reduce by a single penny the cost of overheads, nor will it put one extra ton of cargo into one of these vessels.
On the question of safety of life we must have a certain sense of proportion. Actually there has been an increase of safety in our ships on the sea. I am an underwriter at Lloyd's and have insured ships for many years past against total loss, and the rates at Lloyd's for British tramp steamers to insure against total loss are 50 per cent. lower to-day than they were before the War. Surely that shows that there is a considerably greater degree of safety in the British tramp steamer to-day than before the War, and that improvement can continue. If a motor driver takes out his car with the brakes out of order, the steering loose and with no horn, is it to be said on that account that the law is wrong? It is the administration of the law which ought to be tightened up. I am not at all satisfied that the administration does need an extraordinary amount of tightening up, but I am certain that if my right hon. Friend suspected that it did he would see that it was tightened up.
I have one small criticism of the Board of Trade on the question of subsidies. The question of carrying grain cargoes is worrying a great many people. Under shipping law ships must have special alterations made in them before carrying grain cargoes, and such alterations cost money, but the penalty for not making that alteration is so light that it pays foreign steamship owners to bring their grain here in ships without shifting boards and to pay the fine, because they still save money in the end. I think that is wrong, and that it is neither more nor less than subsidising foreign grain-carrying steamers. If my right hon. Friend looks into that point he will see the necessity of dealing with it. The ignorance which is displayed in this House is not apparent on the Socialist Benches only. Last week the hon. Member for Berwick-on-Tweed (Sir H. Seely) said,
6.40 p.m.
I regret that owing to arrangements made through the usual channels I have to rise at this moment and cut out other speakers from my own side of the House. The right hon. Gentleman appeared rather alarmed at the statements of the right hon. Member for Billhead (Sir R. Home). He said the time had come to remind the right hon. Gentleman of former speeches made by him, that the time had come when the subsidy to tramp shipping should be extended to cargo liners. He cited the competition of the Matson Line between Australia, Vancouver and New Zealand, and, like Oliver Twist, he is demanding more. The right hon. Mem- ber for Hillhead asked what a Socialist Government would do in the circumstances. For one thing, a Socialist Government would not have permitted the inflated profits which were earned by tramp shipping during the War. The hon. and gallant Member for Birkenhead West (Lieut.-Colonel Sandeman Allen), quoting what he called the report, but what I should call the whine, of the shipping companies said that after 2½ years they were stopped from making fabulous profits by the intervention of the Government of the day. Our policy as a Socialist Government would be to see that such profits were not earned from the consumer and out of the workpeople employed in the industry.
Would the right hon. Gentleman deny that the Bank Line, for instance, have an issued capital of £574,000,000, that in 1931 their general reserves amounted to £l,350,000 and that the value of their fleet, their depreciation, is assessed at £3,588,000? The profits during 1931, 1932, and 1933 equalled £255,288, with depreciation standing at £244,000. They paid the five per cent. debenture interest and the ordinary dividend was nil. In 1921 the company were paying dividends, tax free, with a share bonus, of 350 per cent. Where has that money gone? If these people had husbanded their resources, as they should have done, knowing that after a war of such a magnitude there would be a fall in trade, instead of distributing large profits to the shareholders, they would have had enough money without having recourse to the public purse.
Let us take another—the Monarch Steamship Company. This company, having four steamers and no directors, paid dividends from 1912 onwards which were never less than 10 per cent. until 1919, and were mostly at 30 per cent. They have paid a bonus of no less than 350 per cent. I will not weary the House by going through every detail, but the fact is that they gave a 200 per cent. bonus to their shareholders—a dividend of something like 7 per cent. The Clan Line of steamers—I believe these are all tramp steamers—paid 8 per cent. in 1912.
I would like to make it clear to the House, for fear of misunderstanding, that practically all the lines which the hon. Gentleman has mentioned so far are a very small percentage, and that most of them do not come under the subsidy at all.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillhead has already staked a claim for the extension of the subsidy to cargo liners and liners. In citing these figures, therefore, in view of the claim for favours to come from the right hon. Gentleman, I am within my rights and within the rules of order. The Clan Line of steamers shows bonus shares of 250 per cent. In the case of the Furness-Withy Line, there are bonus shares in excess of £200, and between 1907 and 1918 the dividends were never below 7½ per cent. I will cite the Globe Line. In 1915 the dividend was 22½ per cent.; in 1916, 25 per cent.; in 1917, 31½ per cent.; 1918, 35 per cent.; and in 1919, 30 per cent., tax free. In June, 1920, there was a bonus of not less than the equivalent of 700 per cent. In 1920 a 15 per cent. dividend was paid.
Are we wrong if we say that, if those companies have been able to make those fabulous profits and to dip, as it were, into the purses of the consumers of Great Britain, when they find themselves depressed, because of what I believe to be unhealthy competition, they must accept the consequences? I believe that the hon. Gentleman who will follow me said, when speaking in debate at the Parliamentary Empire Association, that the real trouble was that two tons of shipping were serving for one ton of cargo. That is the trouble. A Socialist government would not be daft enough to say that it would put on two ships where one was sufficient. Obviously not. It is that unholy competition which has yielded the results in tramp shipping from which the country is undoubtedly suffering at the present moment.
I will now quote a statement made by one who was a Conservative Prime Minister in this House—I refer to the late Mr. Bonar Law—as to the profits that were being made by the shipping companies. He said: That was after Excess Profits Duty had been paid. Mr. Bonar Law went on:
Did Mr. Bonar Law blame the shipowners for those profits?
I imagine he blamed the whole profit-taking system when he was ashamed to take the profits at the cost of the lives that were lost.
An attack was being made on the shipowners.
On that occasion no attack had been made on the shipowners, and Mr. Bonar Law volunteered that statement in the House of Commons.
In an attack on the shipowners.
The whole point is that he made fabulous sums of money out of the workpeople in the shipping industry and the consumers, and he was ashamed of it.
Everybody made profits during the War.
It is no good, Admiral. There was a time when you had me on the lower deck and you were on the bridge. That day has gone.
It may come back.
Owing to a democratic country, my dear Admiral, you and I are on equal terms here. What would we as a Socialist Government do? Is the right hon. Gentleman really satisfied with the manning conditions of the Mercantile Marine? He boasts that he has been before the mast. I am ashamed of the fact that I have been before the mast. I started in 1891 at 11 years of age at 15s. a month as cook and ordinary seaman in an old topsail schooner. I know a little bit about these conditions. I spent 17 years of my young life in that service. The conditions prevailing then are the conditions prevailing to-day in the tramp shipping industry, and they are a disgrace to any civilised nation. [An HON. MEMBER: "It is not so."] If the hon. Gentleman will take the trouble to read a statement published a few years ago by Dr. Bowen, he will be satisfied that the conditions in the Mercantile Marine are a disgrace to this country. I could prove it if I had the time. Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that his Department are doing all that it can, in the light of the report that was issued yesterday? What is the complaint of that report? It says that in 1908, a biassed body if you like, a shipping committee, recommended to the Board of Trade a manning scale, and that it was the Board of Trade which resented that, saying that the Board had no statutory authority to adopt the manning scale suggested by the committee. It is true; it is here.
We are all thankful for the manning scale that they suggested. The representatives of the seamen signed that report conditionally, because our claim does not end to-day with the two-watch system. Our claim must ultimately be for a three-watch system aboard a ship. The report is nothing but a condemnation of the conduct of the right hon. Gentleman's Department, and of that section of it which has the interests of seamen at heart. Why does the right hon. Gentleman not give us proper legislation? I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman has a tramp mind, a tramp afloat compared to the tramp ashore. He believes that every seaman is more or less a vagrant, more or less a tramp. The very act for which he stands, that of 1894, contains Clauses catering for pauper apprentices aboard the ships of the sea, to carry on the great and glorious trade which was mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Billhead. I did not see many glories on 15s. a month. I saw less glories under sail going to Australia and back on £2 10s. a month. My belief is that under the conditions of life at sea to-day the glories are still fewer.
The manning scale was recommended in 1908, and 28 years afterwards a report is published. Does the right hon. Gentleman intend to implement that report? That is the question which I want him to answer to-night. Is he going to take what he called last Tuesday week the necessary action to implement the report? Is he going to apply that report to all tramp shipping, in accordance with the scales laid down?
With regard to health at sea, the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) made certain statements about the conditions of life at sea. Dr. Bowen sets out statistically that the death-rate for seamen is twice as high as in the Navy or the Army put together. Is that a state of affairs upon which the right hon. Gentleman can look with complacency? "No," he, says. What is he going to do about it That is the point. What are the present conditions? The accommodation allotted to a seaman is 122 cubic feet. After stores and lavatories have made a bite into that, the accommodation is the size of a third-class railway carriage, and in it four seamen have to carry on their lives. After giving deck space in accordance with the scale, how often does the captain intervene, and how often is that space taken up and the measure of recreation intended by the scale debarred to the men? Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to say that he will insist upon that being put right?
Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to say that the day has gone for living in the forepeak over a chain locker, and a water tank with beams exposed and not painted with cork paint but dripping with moisture, with portholes that because of the wind, the sea and the air, the men have to shut and live in the stifling conditions? Is he prepared to give them proper washing, lavatory and bath accommodation, and to give some semblance of hospital equipment in case of accident? If the right hon. Gentleman is serious in what he says as to his love for the Service which has brought so much to his family, let him repay a little by doing what I suggest. Lord Runciman said last week at a sort of mutual admiration society, I take it, a sort of bucking themselves up, that he had a son who had his feet in both camps. He himself had a foot in both camps, in the House of Lords and in the industry, and between the two of them they had been successful in achieving a subsidy that was to save tramp shipping. What does he say? He says, in effect: "Let those greenhorns keep away." We are the greenhorns. I suppose it was a greenhorn that brought in the Plimsoll line. They were not seamen. The right hon. Gentleman, in mentioning his 19 Acts, did not say that two of them raised the Plimsoll line and brought greater danger to life at sea. It was public opinion that brought the Merchant Shipping Act in 1894. The right hon. Gentleman deprecates that we should show from these benches the conditions under which the seamen of Great Britain have to exist. He says it is an injury to the Service. What about the injury to the men in that service? When we get a garrulous gentleman talking about greenhorns we would remind him that the greenhorns are here to see that the conditions in any service of this country are something of which we can be proud. The right hon. Gentleman says that our conditions are a model to the world. He is satisfied with them.
Not that he is satisfied with them.
Well, he said that they are a model to the world. I imagine that if I made such a statement I should not interest myself in spending more money improving the conditions. The right hon. Gentleman has a big pull in the shipping fraternity and it is up to him to see that the shipowner does the things that he ought to do for the health and well-being of the seamen. In regard to wages, are they such wonderful wages? Most other concerns in Great Britain have already handed back the cuts. But not so the British shipowners. One quarter of the money, 4s. 6d. a month, 1s. 2½d. a week, one-eighth of a penny an hour, has been given back. They are to give back another one-eighth of a penny an hour immediately, and another in July. The total will be 13s. 6d. a month. The shipowners on the Maritime Board said that they could not liquidate the last quarter.
But in meeting the officers the next week they gave them back not only the whole of the cuts but from 5s. to 12s. 6d. a month above their old wages. Are they afraid of the new-found unity on the quarterdeck? Are they afraid because the officers have left a professional organisation to join a trade union? Of course they are, and so they think that they will placate them. Nobody could do it better than the Shipping Federation. I have had experience of them. I joined a trade union in 1895, and tramped this country from port to port because the Federation ticket was barred to me. If they had the power they would do that again to-morrow. The wages for which the right hon. Gentleman is giving so much credit to the shipowners should never have been taken from the men. The weekly men have £2 17s. 6d. for a week of 84 hours, with 10s. a week if they find their own food, and probably a family to keep ashore in many cases. Does that reflect what the right hon. Gentleman calls the glory and tradition of the sea? Is that the reward of men who, equally with those in the armed forces, gave their lives during the War to see that their country was served with its food?
We on this side of the House will not be satisfied until we get a Ministry for the mercantile marine. The mercantile marine covers approximately 17,000,000 tons of shipping, compared with less than 2,000,000 in the Navy. The complement of men cannot be related. There is the First Lord of the Admiralty looking after the interests of the Navy. Why should we not take from the Board of Trade this hole-and-corner method of dealing with a great service? In the War we had a Shipping Ministry. What did it do? It gave them fabulous profits. There was no question about that. It gave them ordered conduct. It did, because of the War, implement the law with regard to shipowners. But it is left to the right hon. Gentleman in peace time to wink at the obligations of the law. The hon. Member asked what ships went to sea in an unworthy condition? We have four on record. The findings of a court of inquiry have decided that, and it is arising out of those cases that we have this report on the manning scale.
The Government are boasting that there are 20,000 more people employed in the shipbuilding industry. Will the Parliamentary Secretary, when he replies, tell us the number of people who have been re-employed in the ship-repairing yards arising out of these four inquiries? Already there are three more inquiries pending. Seven inquiries have been held in one year. Whatever figures may be adduced by the right hon. Gentleman or his Parliamentary Secretary, the fact remains that 131 ships have been lost in the period of their Ministry. Can that be regarded with complacency? No reasonable man can be satisfied that we should have in a period of three years 131 ships foundering with loss of life. We are against the subsidy in principle. We say that it is wrong to hand out public money to a body of people who by their acts have proved their incom-petency to manage their trade, who come cap in hand to the Government asking for continuance of the subsidy. What shall we hear when the time comes that the nation has to face the issue that if the subsidy is removed we shall be responsible for bringing down again the tramp shipping industry of Great Britain?
We take what is coming on the wages side, not as a measure of justice but as a wrong partially remedied. With regard to the committees that have been set up, we complain that on only two of them are the seamen represented, and that in one case the seamen's representative is sitting as an expert. Why should the people who will have to live under the conditions not have a right to sit on the committees and adjudicate on what the conditions shall be? Will the Parliamentary Secretary say that whatever reports these committees submit will be implemented by the Board of Trade? Will he give us that assurance? For the reasons adduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Seaham (Mr. Shinwell) we are against the subsidy in principle, we say that in the mercantile marine conditions of wages and manning are a disgrace to the community, that the health conditions of the seamen demand rectification in the immediate future, and we shall vote against this subsidy to the shipowners.
7.12 p.m.
I was sorry that the hon. Member looked back with regret on his service before the mast. Judging from the vigour with which he has addressed this House it seems to have done him no harm, and I think we can congratulate him on the degree of health that he has obtained from it. He asked me a number of questions, and perhaps the one to which he attached most importance was—will the President of the Board of Trade implement the recommendations as and when they are received from the Committees? One cannot give a general answer in advance to a wide question of that kind. But I can give him an answer with regard to the manning report that was received and published yesterday. That report was accepted unanimously by shipowners and seamen, the conclusions of the report and the recommendations will be taken as the basis of the new Board of Trade instructions which are being put in hand at once and which, when prepared, will be sent to the Merchant Shipping Advisory Committee.
Do I understand the hon. Gentleman to say that he will implement that report in detail? He said it would be used as a basis.
The recommendations in this report are being taken as the basis of new instructions, that is implementing in the full sense the Manning Committee Report. I want to give that assurance categorically. We are discussing the continuance of the tramp shipping subsidy. I would like to remind hon. Members that tramp shipping is part of the transport service of international trade. It is essential for this country, which depends on international trade, that we should have a fair share of the transport facilities available. The maintenance of the tramp section of the shipping industry is a vital national necessity. The hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Shinwell) in moving the Amendment, was asked by me whether the party to which he belonged was necessarily against subsidies. He said:
The position was this: There was more shipping and less international trade. The mercantile marines of the world, having increased, provided an additional amount of tonnage that was offering for a reduced amount of trade to be carried. Not only that, but the increase in the mercantile marines of other countries had been due in a large measure to the stimulus of subsidies and the financial help which had been given by many countries. The President went on to show that the British subsidy would be aimed at securing the abolition of foreign subsidies, the greater employment of British shipping, and the greater employment of British seafaring classes—that the subsidy was defensive and could only be justified on certain conditions. The conditions were laid down, and they have formed the subject of reports in Command Papers. Has the subsidy succeeded in achieving the objects for which it was introduced? I invite the House seriously to read pages 10 and 11 of Command Paper 5004, where there are set out nine different results that have been achieved as a result of the payment of the subsidy.
Those who are in charge of the industry, the Administrative Committee, give, as a result of their experience for the first six months of the operation of the subsidy, their conclusions—that it has saved the British tramp shipping industry from collapse; that it has prevented the abnormal transference of large blocks of British tonnage to foreign flags; that it has increased the employment both of ships and of crews; that it has enabled the industry to organise, to minimise competition, to establish co-operation, to arrest the fall in freights, and to minimise dissipation of the subsidy; that it has made a movement for international co-operation; that it has neutralised the uneconomic competitive advantage of foreign vessels; that it has enabled the tramp shipping industry to contribute to the international rationalisation of tonnage; that it has secured adherence to charters, and that it has restored confidence. You could not have a chapter of recommendations given by those in charge of the industry with regard to the working of the subsidy that more completely fulfils the conditions which the President of the Board of Trade laid down as essential, and the objects which he hoped would accrue as a result; you could not have a more complete experience showing that the care taken in the fashioning of the scheme was justified.
The hon. Member for Seaham questioned whether the improvement in tramp shipping was not perhaps due more to a general world improvement of trade and to the operation of the freight-raising scheme than to the operation of the subsidy. Let me examine that point. Has he considered how the freight-raising schemes operate? Has he looked into the way in which a freight-maintenance scheme is worked? Does he appreciate that the lever by which you can get a voluntary organisation of that kind in being is the power to withhold the subsidy if the conditions are not complied with?
Surely the hon. Gentleman is not seriously suggesting that the establishment of minimum freights or freight co-operation is not possible without a subsidy?
I am showing that in practice—whether it be theoretically possible or not, which is not a consideration that need disturb this House—that in practice it does not work until you have the subsidy, and that it is the power of granting or withholding the subsidy according to whether or not vessels agree to come within the scheme and to abide by the conditions laid down which has been the basis of the ability to maintain these freight-maintenance schemes.
Does the hon. Gentleman suggest that the tramp shipowners would never voluntarily have established a scheme for freight cooperation unless a bribe of this kind— for such it is—had been offered to them?
The liners have shown that price regulation in the matter of fares can be arranged without a subsidy; and every trust has price regulation without a subsidy.
I am merely giving the experience of those in the mercantile marine world and of those who have taken the trouble to investigate the operation of this subsidy. We have found that we have been able to secure a larger employment of British tramp tonnage and of British officers and crews as a result of the bargaining power given by the power to withhold or grant this subsidy according to whether shipowners will or will not agree to abide by particular freight rates on particular routes; and not only that, but let the hon. Member for Seaham, who asked questions about the Dane and the Greek, realise that the Dane and the Greek have come into this scheme—
And had the subsidy?
Certainly; as a result of their being a subsidy which could make them observe the rates laid down. A good deal of discussion has taken place across the Floor of the House as to which maritime nations grant subsidies and which do not, and a good deal of play has been made about the answer to a question put by the hon. Member for Seaham. The point has already been made by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for West Birkenhead (Lieut.-Colonel Sandeman Allen) that the United States did not figure in the list because the hon. Member had asked geographically about countries in Europe. In the answer it was stated that Italy, Spain and France were the most noteworthy examples of subsidy-paying countries, and particulars were given in the answer, which appears, of course, in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Will the hon. Gentleman now tell us the other countries that pay a subsidy?
I have mentioned Japan and America, and there are a number of others in Europe which can be given. Almost every maritime nation contributes in some way or another.
If I put down a question to the President of the Board of Trade on that matter for next Tuesday, will he give me specifically the names of the other maritime countries in Europe which provide subsidies, and the amounts expended?
I cannot guarantee that the answer can be given by Tuesday, but, if the hon. Member puts down a question, an answer will certainly be given.
If you have the information, why do you not give it?
The hon. Members asked to be given the amounts contributed, which means an inquiry of a number of foreign governments. The House has before it the question, not whether there should or should not be a subsidy, but whether the subsidy should be continued. We are not debating the question whether there ever should have been a subsidy in 1935, but whether we shall give a Second Reading to a Bill to provide that the subsidy shall be continued for a further year. The hon. Member has asked who has had the subsidy, where it has gone to, what type of amounts have been distributed, and to whom. Let me begin to tell him. For the first, second and third quarters of the first year the amount already paid is roughly £1,250,000. The number of shipowners who registered vessels with the Subsidy Committee in respect of those three quarters was 396. The number of vessels was 2,037. The number of applications dealt with in respect of voyages completed by the 30th September was 8,541. The number of applications recommended for payment was 8,281. The number of applications rejected was 250. The remainder, making up the sum, are still under consideration. These are the type of figures with which this committee is dealing. We are discussing the continuation of the subsidy. In the Second Report of the Tramp Shipping Advisory Committee, published as Command Paper 5084, reasons are given why the shipping subsidy should be continued. The report says:
We are right in pointing out that safety is a matter of vital concern to those in charge of the administration of the Mercantile Marine. Every care is taken to see that the law is observed. There will always be cases where a law is flouted. When a law is flouted, the proper thing to do is to find proper evidence, and to pursue and prosecute and bring into force the ordinary operations of the criminal law. But that is not the way by which you can make an industry healthier. You can make an industry healthier by obtaining enlightened supervision over what is going on, and by bringing home to the owners of tramp ships and to those who are in command of tramp shipping fortunes to-day that it is their duty to realise that the men who go down to the sea in ships are as essential to the carrying on of that industry as the ships themselves. The shipowners of this country are as alive to that fact as any hon. Member opposite, and I very much doubt whether the interests of the men in the Mercantile Marine are best served by speeches like some of those to which we have listened to-day. I do not believe that the chance
of finding a berth on a British ship is made better by running down the Mercantile Marine, and we propose to do what we can from this side to see that it maintains its high position.
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
The House divided: Ayes, 234; Noes, 126.
Division No. 48.] AYES. [7.30 p.m. Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G. Dunglass, Lord Loder, Captain Hon. J. de V. Albery, I. J. Eales, J. F. Loftus, P. C. Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'kn'hd) Eckersley, P. T. Lumley, Capt. L. R. Anderson, Sir A. Garrett (C. of Ldn.) Eden, Rt. Hon. A. Mabane, W. (Huddersfield) Aske, Sir R. W. Edmondson, Major Sir J. MacAndrew, Lt.-Col. Sir C. G. Assheton, R. Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E. McCorquodale, M. S. Atholl, Duchess of Ellis, Sir G. MacDonald, Rt. Hn. J. R. (Scot. U.) Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Elliston, G. S. MacDonald, Rt. Hon M. (Ross) Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet) Elmley, Viscount MacDonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Emrys-Evans, P. V. McEwen, Capt. H. J. F. Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h) Errington, E. McKie, J. H. Beit, Sir A. L. Everard, W. L. Maclay, Hon. J. P. Bennett, Capt. Sir E. N. Findlay, Sir E. Makins, Brig.-Gen. E. Bernays, R. H. Fremantle, Sir F. E. Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. Blaker, Sir R. Fyfe, D. P. M. Maxwell, S. A. Borodale, Viscount Ganzonl, Sir J. Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J. Bossom, A. C. Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir J. Meller, Sir R. J. (Mitcham) Boulton, W. W. Gluckstein, L. H. Mills, Sir F. (Leyton, E.) Bower, Comdr. R. T. Glyn, Major Sir R. G. C. Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest) Boyce, H. Leslie Goodman, Col. A. W. Moore-Brabazon, Lt.-Col. J. T. C. Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B. Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral) Moreing, A. C. Braithwaite, Major A. N. Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. Brass, Sir W. Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester) Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.) Briscoe, Capt. R. G. Gretton, Col. Rt. Hon. J Munro, P. M. Brocklebank, C. E. R. Gridley, Sir A. B. Nail, Sir J. Brown, Col. D. C. (Hexham) Grigg, Sir E. W. M. Neven-Spence, Maj. B. H. Brown, Bt. Hon. E. (Leith) Grimston, R. V. Nicolson, Hon. H. G. Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury) Gritten, W. G. Howard Orr-Ewing, I. L. Bull, B. B. Guinness, T. L. E. B. Palmer, G. E. H. Burghley, Lord Gunston, Capt. D. W. Peake, O. Burgin, Dr. E. L. Guy, J. C. M. Peat, C. U. Cartland, J. R. H. Hacking, Rt. Hon. D. H. Penny, Sir G Cary, R. A. Hamilton, Sir G. C. Percy, Rt. Hon. Lord E. Cautley, Sir H. S. Hannon, Sir P. J. H. Peters, Dr. S. J. Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir A. (Br.W.) Harbord, A. Petherick, M. Channon, H. Heilgers, Captain F. F. A. Pickthorn, K. W. M. Chapman, A. (Rutherglen) Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan Pilkington, R. Chapman, Sir S. (Edinburgh, S.) Herbert, A. P. (Oxford U.) Ponsonby, Col. C. E. Chorlton, A. E. L. Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth) Ramsay, Captain A. H. M. Clarke. F. E. Hills, Major Rt. Hon. J. W. (Ripon) Ramsbotham, H. Cobb, Sir C. S. Holmes, J. S. Ramsden, Sir E. Colfox, Major W. P. Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J. Rankin, R. Cook, T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.) Hopkinson, A. Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmlin) Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.) Howitt, Dr. A. B. Rayner, Major R. H. Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh,W.) Hulbert, N. J. Reed, A. C. (Exeter) Courtauld, Major J. S. Hunter, T. Rickards, G. W. (Skipton) Craddock, Sir R. H. Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir T. W. H. Ross, Major Sir R. D. (L'derry) Cranborne, Viscount Jarvis, Sir J. J. Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge) Craven-Ellis, W. Joel, D. J. B. Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir E. A. Croft, Brig.-Gen. sir H. Page Kerr, H. W. (Oldham) Runciman. Rt. Hon. W. Crooke, J. S. Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.) Russell, A. West (Tynemouth) Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C. Keyes, Admiral of the Fleet Sir R. Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury) Crowder, J. F. E. Kimball, L. Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen) Cruddas, Col. B. Kirkpatrick, W. M. Salmon, Sir I. Culverwell, C. T. Knox, Major-General Sir A. W. F. Salt, E. W. Davidson, Rt. Hon. Sir J. C. C. Lamb, Sir J. Q. Samuel, Sir A. M. (Farnham) Davies, Major G. F. (Yeovil) Latham, Sir P. Samuel, M. R. A. (Putney) Denman, Hon. R. D. Law, Sir A. J. (High Peak) Scott, Lord William Denville, Alfred Leckie, J. A. Selley, H. R. Dodd, J. S. Lees-Jones, J. Shakespeare, G. H. Dorman-Smith, Major R. H. Levy, T. Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree) Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side) Lewis, O. Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar) Dugdale, Major T. L. Liddall, W. S. Simmonds, O. E. Duggan, H. J. Lindsay, K. M. Smiles, Lieut.-Colonel Sir W. D. Duncan, J. A. L. Locker-Lampson, Comdr. O. S. Smith, L. W. (Hallam) Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen) Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford) Wedderburn, H. J. S. Somervell, Sir D. B. (Crewe) Thomson, Sir J. D. W. Wells, S. R. Southby, Comdr. A. R. J. Titchfield, Marquess of Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R. Spens, W. P. Tree, A. R. L. F. Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.) Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Fylde) Tufnell, Lieut.-Com. R. L. Willoughby de Eresby, Lord Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'I'd) Turton, R. H. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G. Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, F.) Wakefield, W. W. Withers, Sir J. J. Storey, S. Walker-Smith, Sir J. Womersley, Sir W. J. Strickland, Captain W. F. Wallace, Captain Euan Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull) Young, A. S. L. (Partick) Tasker, Sir R. I. Ward, Irene (Wallsend) Tate, Mavis C. Wardlaw-Milne, Sir J. S. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne) Warrender, Sir V. Sir James Blindell and Lieut.-Colonel Llewellin. Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.) Waterhouse, Captain C.
NOES. Adamson, W. M. Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth) Parkinson, J. A. Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.) Hall, G. H. (Aberdare) Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Amman, C. G. Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) Potts, J. Anderson, F. (Whitehaven) Hardie, G. D. Price, M. P. Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R. Harris, Sir P. A. Pritt, D. N. Banfield, J. W. Henderson, A. (Kingswinford) Quibell, J. D. Barnes, A. J. Henderson, J. (Ardwick) Richards, R. (Wrexham) Barr, J. Holland, A. Riley, B. Bellenger, F. Hollins, A. Ritson, J. Benson, G. Hopkin, D. Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Brom.) Bevan, A. Jagger, J. Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens) Broad, F. A. Jenkins, A. (Pontypool) Rowson, G. Brown, C. (Mansfield) Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath) Salter, Dr. A. Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (S Ayrshire) John, W. Sexton, T. M. Burke, W. A. Jones, A. C. (Shipley) Shinwell, E. Cape, T. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Short, A. Chater, D. Kelly, W. T. Silverman, S. S. Cluse, W. S. Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T. Simpson, F. B. Clynes, Rt. Hon. J. R. Leach, W. Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (C'thn's) Cocks, F. S. Lee, F. Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe) Compton, J. Leonard, W. Smith, E. (Stoke) Cove, W. G. Leslie, J. R. Sorensen, R. W. Cripps, Hon. Sir Stafford Logan, D. G. Stephen, C. Daggar, G. Lunn, W. Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.) Dalton, H. McGhee, H. G, Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth) Davies, O. L. (Pontypridd) MacLaren, A. Thorne, W. Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton) Maclean, N. Thurtle, E. Davies, S. O. (Merthyr) MacMillan, M. (Western Isles) Tinker, J. J. Day, H. Mainwaring, W. H. Viant, S. P. Dobbie, W. Mander, G. le M. Walkden, A. G. Ede, J. C. Marklew, E. Walker, J. Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty) Marshall', F. Watkins, F. C. Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H. Mathers, G. Watson, W. McL. Frankel, D. Messer, F. Westwood, J. Gallacher, W. Milner, Major J. Wilkinson, Ellen Gardner, B. W. Montague, F. Williams, E. J. (Ogmore) Garro-Jones, G. M. Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Ha'kn'y, S.) Williams, T. (Don Valley) George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Wilson, C. H. (Attercliffe) George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey) Naylor, T. E. Woods, G. S. (Finsbury) Green, W. H. (Deptford) Oliver, G. H. Young, Sir R. (Newton) Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. Owen, Major G. Grenfell, D. R. Paling, W. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.) Parker, H. J. H. Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Charleton.
Bill read a Second time.
Bill committed to a Committee of the Whole House for Monday next.—[ Sir G. Penny. ]
Milk (Extension of Temporary Provisions) Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
We have already had invaluable discussions upon this Measure when the Financial Resolution was before the House on Monday last. On that occasion the Debate was rather upon nutrition, and from the Amendment which is down on the Order Paper I see that that aspect is still receiving a great real of attention from hon. and right hon. Members. I fully sympathise with that, but let us remember that the really important fact is that the industry must be kept going. It is not enough to concentrate upon ways of getting the milk to people unless we also realise that the milk must be there before it can be distributed, and that the industry which in the past has kept the cows necessary for the supply of milk, and which still has the task of keeping those cows, must receive a remunerative price for its products or it will not be able to maintain the herds from which the milk supplies are drawn.
Let us also remember that the dairy-industry does not consist merely of milk production, but also the production of butter and cheese, and that the main purpose of the 1934 Act and of this Bill is to preserve the general milk industry in this country. The Measures which we introduced in 1934 dealt with the industry as we then found it, and included the manufacture of butter and cheese. The manufacture of butter and cheese seems to raise in the minds of some hon. and right hon. Members the vision of some kind of destruction of milk; but cheese and butter are, after all, nutritious, valuable and protective foodstuffs, full of vitamins. [ Laughter. ] This is no laughing matter, for butter and cheese are valuable substances, and I do not think that in manufacturing them the industry is doing a dis-service to this country.
Whether eventually we give up butter and cheese manufacture entirely because of imports from abroad, and produce nothing but liquid milk in this country, is a proposition which this House would certainly be well advised to take at least 18 months to consider, and in my view it would need a longer time. I say that because the diversion of the butter and cheese subsidy towards the liquid milk industry was so widely advocated in Monday's Debate. Since then I have gone into the figures. Naturally I took up the suggestion that the £2,500,000 proposed in Sections 1, 2 and 3 should be used for the purpose of subsidising the liquid milk market. Spread over the 739,000,000 gallons of milk consumed in liquid form in 1934–35, that would enable a reduction of one-quarter of one farthing per pint to be made, and who will say that such a reduction would lead to an enormous expansion in the consumption of liquid milk? The proposition has only to be stated to demonstrate its fallacy to the whole House. Therefore, our problems would not be solved by a diversion of the subsidy at present given to butter and cheese manufacture to the production of liquid milk.
Many other points were raised in the Debate on Monday and, as I said at the time, I could not answer those points there and then. As far as possible, I would like to deal with them in my remarks now. The hon. Member for Jarrow (Miss Wilkinson) said that one of the reasons for the lack of success of the milk scheme was that milk for schools was taken into account in computing unemployment allowances, and that consequently parents feared this and preferred to maintain their allowances and not to have the free or cheap milk in the schools. I have made inquiry and I am informed that that is not so. In calculating unemployment allowances the Unemployment Assistance Board ignore entirely the provision of free milk for school children and also the provision of milk at a reduced price. The Poor Law Division of the Ministry of Health states that it is practically certain that the Public Assistance Committees do not take cheap milk into account in assessing poor relief. The Ministry of Health know of no case in which free milk is taken into account, although there may be some. Hon. Members of all parties will be glad to hear that that fear is unfounded.
The fear was also expressed as to whether all the elementary school children had an opportunity of obtaining cheap milk, since in many of the schools in certain areas milk schemes were not in operation. I have gone into the figures, and allowing for the fact that the scheme is operating in the great majority of the large urban schools it is probable that about 92 per cent. of the children attending public elementary schools are in schools where the scheme is in operation. The fact that less than half the children are taking milk is not primarily due to the absence of facilities but to other factors. This emphasises the desirability of having a further period for test and experience so that we may find out what all the factors are and thereby be in a better position to deal with them when we bring forward our long-term legislation.
Another point was brought up by the hon. Member for Barnard Castle (Mr. Sexton) who said it was surely not beyond the wit of man to devise some scheme whereby the extension of the provision of milk for children might cover the week-ends and the holidays. That is already provided for in the Milk in Schools scheme. Paragraph 2 of the scheme says:
Several points were raised as to cleanliness of the milk and the cleaning up of the herds. I replied by saying that the advance in cleaning up the milk, which is done by the Milk Board and not by my Department, is probably the greatest advance in regard to the cleanliness of milk or of foodstuffs that has been accomplished in a similar period in the history of this country. In December last over 25 per cent. of the milk had been brought up to the standard of Grade A or Accredited milk. On 10th February there were over 15,000 accredited producers in England and Wales and they were producing one-third of all the milk sold under wholesale contract for liquid consumption under these conditions, which are only attained by specially selected producers.
With regard to the cleaning up of the herds, I gave details in reply to a question, as to the expenditure. The cleaning up of the milk is primarily a matter for the Milk Board and the Ministry of Health, while the cleaning up of the herds is primarily a matter for the Minis- try of Agriculture. We have had 65 herds attested and 56 applications have been refused. I am not satisfied with the progress made, and the revision of the scheme is at present receiving the serious consideration of the Ministry, because I feel that quicker progress could be made. If we do not make better progress than we are making I shall not feel that we have made as great a contribution to the cleanliness of food supplies of this country as the Milk Board has been able to make through the fostering of the accredited producers. Those who say that the Milk Board is a selfish institution will be interested to hear that they have made a levy upon all their members in order that a bonus of 1d. per gallon extra may be paid to producers of accredited milk. That means that the majority of the members are contributing a levy in order to pay a special bonus to the minority who are producing accredited milk. Everyone who is acquainted with agriculture or any other form of production will realise that that is a very remarkable instance of good will.
Certain administrative points were raised as to misdirection of the subsidy. The most picturesque of these was, I think, the suggestion that subsidised milk was being used for the manufacture of umbrella handles. The position is, that fresh cream, although a milk product for subsidy purposes, has not been subsidised in England and Wales because the milk used for making it fetches more than the standard price. A small proportion of milk going for manufacture into tinned cream has been subsidised. The byproduct after the manufacture of cream is for the most part manufactured into condensed skimmed milk and skimmed milk powder. Therefore that eliminates a great proportion of the milk used for cream, since all the cream is eaten, all the stuff made into milk powder is eaten, and all the stuff made into tinned milk is eaten. A certain quantity of the byproducts is manufactured into casein and some of this casein is manufactured into food products, such as patent medicines. A small proportion of the casein is used in the manufacture of plastics. Therefore what it amounts to is this—that a small or minute proportion of the byproducts after the processing of some milk which is probably not subsidised, may be manufactured into casein which may be used in the manufacture of umbrella handles. It may be a good debating point, but no one would say that it would make any serious difference to the milk position in the country if the Department were to say that no casein should ever be manufactured into anything but a food product.
The main object of the legislation which Parliament approved in 1934 has been achieved, and that is the object of preserving the great dairy and milk industry of this country. When we talk about the small proportion of dried milk that is manufactured and of the export of a small quantity of condensed milk, or dried milk and butter, let us compare that with the size and weight of the whole of the dairy industry. The value of the milk and dairy produce output in Great Britain for 1933–34 was over £65,000,000, representing 27½ per cent. of the total of the agricultural output. That represents the employment, part-time and whole time, of about 375,000 men. Surely, an industry with such value of output and such a record of employment is well worth the care of this House and well worth preserving. When we compare the agricultural industry with other industries it comes out very well. The capital value of the dairy industry of England and Wales, in addition to about £90,000,000 worth of cows, is represented by roughly £70,000,000 worth of apparatus and buildings, the whole of which is manufactured in the towns and bought by the countryside. The possession of £70,000,000 worth of fixed capital shows that agriculture can be, and is, a most valuable contributor to the solution of unemployment in the town as well as to the solution of unemployment in the countryside.
The right hon. Gentleman is not confusing the machinery with the distributive dairies?
No. Anyone of us who has to put up a byre or in any way to plan a dairy knows how much money goes into it. It is because that capital value is spread far and wide and is not centralised that we do not realise the enormous value of the capital equipment of this and other portions of the agricultural industry. We have had to maintain the dairy industry and at the same time to maintain an open market for butter and cheese and other milk products in this country. When we are reckoning the sum expended on the subsidy to the milk manufacturing end of the industry, leaving out altogether the value of the milk industry and considering the value merely of the butter and cheese consumed in this country, I want to make a calculation and see what an enormous advantage the consumer has derived from the sums given by way of subsidy. It has enabled us to absorb scores of millions of poundsworth of products from overseas which could only have been absorbed otherwise at the cost of the extinction of that great industry and at the cost of the unemployment and expense which that would have involved.
The right hon. Member for Hills-borough (Mr. Alexander) in his Amendment refers to the desirability of making milk products available at a price within the compass of the lowest income. I would point out that the policy of the Government has not only been directed to that end but has secured that end. I wish the right hon. Gentleman would take into account not merely the supplies of milk but the supplies of butter and cheese. I have shown that without Government assistance those supplies could not have been absorbed in this country, and there would have been a widespread crash in the dairy and liquid milk industry. During the two years since the House voted this money over 1,000,000 tons of butter and nearly half a million tons of cheese have been consumed in this country. I have calculated what the figures would have been if we had had to pay on the 1929 prices. If we had bought the butter eaten in the last two years at 1929 prices, it would have cost us £100,000,000 more. How small in comparison is the rebate which we have given to the producers in this country. At 1925 prices it would have cost £116,000,000 more. Really, since 1925, and even since 1929, we have made great strides towards the provision of ample supplies within the reach of all. The cheese we have eaten in those two years would have cost £23,000,000 more at 1929 prices.
A year?
No, taking the two years together. If you halve it, it is £50,000,000 for butter and about £11,000,000 for cheese. I am merely lumping together the money which has been saved to the consumers of this country during the period when the subsidy granted by this House has been in operation — £100,000,000 for butter and £23,000,000 for cheese. And during that time, as a rebate to the producers in this country, we have paid £3,000,000, or £1,500,000 per annum. Clearly that is a calculation which shows the greatest advantage to the consumers in this country. Why should the subsidy to housing be regarded as a subsidy for housing and the subsidy to agriculture be regarded as a subsidy for the farmers? No one says this House is about to vote another great subsidy for building. It is for housing, so why should anyone say, in the face of these figures, that these moneys voted by this House are not going, as they are going, to the cheapening and extension of the supply of food? it is not reasonable to accuse the agriculturist with having received those subsidies. He has no more received them than the workman in the building trade has received the housing subsidies which this House has provided.
It is true that the workman in the building trade gets a better wage on account of the extra employment provided by the housing subsidies provided by this House, but the agricultural labourer too receives a better wage on account of the extra employment given because of the subsidies voted by this House. In both cases the great majority, the great weight, of the subsidy goes, right through to the consumer, of the house in the one case, of the butter and cheese in the other; and I say that an injustice is done by merely considering this as a subsidy to the agriculturist, as if it was something being pocketed by the farmer and not passed on to the community as a whole. I notice on the face of the right hon. Member for Hills-borough that familiar, slightly combative look which one has come to associate with an early intention on his part of challenging some of these points in Debate.
It sounds like a guilty conscience on the right hon. Gentleman's part.
No; it sounds like an acute observation. These calculations are unfamiliar and, no doubt, will attract attention, I hope both here and outside, but they have had to be made and re- peated because they are fundamentally the justification of the Minister of Agriculture for bringing forward this Bill, because, as I said in my speech on the Financial Resolution, I do not think the Minister of Agriculture is the proper person to bring forward a Measure whose primary object it is to bring about an improvement in nutrition. There is a danger in mixing up these two things. I say that the cheapening of the food supply is a proper part of the activity of the Ministry of Agriculture and that the moneys voted by this House in this way have inured to the benefit of the consumers of this country as a whole. If we had not been able to absorb these supplies and maintain reasonable prices for butter and cheese, we should have thrown out of gear altogether 400,000,000 gallons of milk which in these two years have gone into the production of cheese and butter. Either the retail prices would have had to rise in order to compensate the home producer until the lowering prices drove him out of production, or, more probably, the markets would have been swamped and the industry flung into chaos and disorganisation, that chaos and disorganisation which we debated last night on a private Member's Motion. The House then showed its strong dislike of chaos and disorganisation, and I hope it will show it again to-night by voting for this scheme, which in the past has prevented, and now is preventing, chaos and disorganisation arising in the milk industry.
Let me turn, finally, to one or two aspects of the Amendment which the right hon. Member for Hillsborough is to move. The Amendment states: say then that these opening words express a view which is held in all parts of the House, and not less strongly by the Government. I think every speech made by Ministers on the 1934 Act and on this present proposal has stressed the importance, from the point of view not only of agriculture but of national health, of the increased consumption of liquid milk, and I say that the milk in schools scheme has been a substantial contribution to that end. The Amendment goes on to say that it should be done:
It may be argued that the industry itself should lower the retail price of milk. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, his arguments have been carefully gone into by the Committee of Investigation, and it would be quite improper for me or for either of us to express any opinions on a matter which has been argued before an independent tribunal and is at present sub judice. I hope he agrees.
No, I think it would be quite proper for the Minister to make it plain that he ought not to speak about issues before the Committee of Investigation, because he will obviously have to make a verdict himself upon their report, but in view of the fact that the inquiry by the Committee of Investigation has been perfectly public and that the whole of the operations before the Committee have been open to the Press, I do not think he would expect me to be quite as silent about the facts that have been placed before the Committee.
Well, it might be putting too great a strain on the right hon. Gentleman. I only say that he must separate himself to some extent in his capacity as a witness before the Committee and in his capacity as a Member of the House of Commons and of the Privy Council who will afterwards in some respects have to sit and adjudge upon the issues presented to that Committee. I am sure he will find it possible to divide his personality accordingly. He asks us to decline
Furthermore, we ought all to recognise that the Reorganisation Commission is also examining the problem at the present time, and I do not think anyone could contend that these great problems could be solved in the few weeks which remain before the provisions of the 1934 Act expire and before the Committee of Investigation, in an inquiry covering 36 days of continuous sitting, has come to a close. Very few of us in our private lives could stand a continuous investigation for 36 days by a Committee of Investigation. Between the Committee of Investigation and the Reorganisation Commission, I am sure that there will be an adequate foundation laid for a permanent structure to be erected in the months which succeed the passing, as I hope, of the Bill now before the House.
The right hon. Gentleman also calls
It may be that there is a case for a differential margin between the great urban centres and some of the sparse rural centres. All these matters are sub judice, and I do not wish to pronounce on them, but I say that the final and ultimate purpose of the whole thing is that the cost of replacement either of the services of the distributor or the producer should be met so that the process of supply and distribution would still continue. The House must go cautiously in interfering with those processes, which, after all, represent the play of the market over a long period of years. We all want to see the public drinking more milk. That is the main object of the Bill. It cannot be insoluble, and it must not be insoluble. I am sure we all sympathise with the final words of the Amendment—to find means been properly used for the good of the people, that I commend this Bill to the House.
8.16 p.m.
I beg to move, to leave out from "That", to the end of the Question, and to add instead thereof:
On the general question as to how the Government should deal with that central social problem I do not for a moment expect, having regard to their past history and their political beliefs, that they are going to be suddenly converted to-night, but in the argument that the Minister has put up about this subsidy of £3,000,000 he has not really touched at all on the general social need. If he once admits the need for a subsidy, not only from the point of view of maintaining the position of the dairy farmer but also from the point of view that it gives some measure of cheaper provision to the general community, there is surely a case for widening the extent of the subsidy. He has put the whole of his argument on the basis that he has only £3,000,000 and that he is not going, or cannot, or may not spend more than that sum in a given time. If it is a question as to whether or not the Government can afford to ask the nation to provide the requisite and necessary means to convey this milk to needy families, we shall have a great deal to say in the next few weeks about another branch of expenditure that the Government propose to engage in. We have before us a Supplementary Estimate of nearly £8,000,000 for additional expenditure on the fighting services. When we come to consider that we are spending in the current financial year nearly £140,000,000, nearly 3s. in the pound on the Income Tax, on the fighting services alone, if that is the view of what the National Government can afford in that direction, it is a pretty poor argument to put up that they have only £3,000,000 to spare in order to assist the general distribution of this vital, bodybuilding food to the poorest section of the community, and especially our child population.
I should like to say a word or two about the school-children aspect of this scheme. I was delighted to get the admission from the Parliamentary Secretary on Monday and from the Minister to-night with regard to the attitude of the producer-retailer in rural areas, I will not say in every case but in many cases, towards this scheme. In many cases in connection with the ordinary distribution of the liquid supply you find the producer-retailer undercutting the general distributing trade. I understand that now when it comes to dealing with the provision of school milk in rural areas, the producer-retailer is grumbling because the margin is not enough. It would have been more graceful on the part of the representa- tives of the Ministry if they had paid a little credit where credit is due in respect of this school scheme. I had occasion to be present at the negotiations with the Milk Marketing Board and representatives of the trade when this scheme was to be put into operation. It is true that the Government are giving a subsidy, and that the Milk Marketing Board are making a contribution, but if it had not been for the working-class organisation in the co-operative movement making a firm offer and carrying it through, I do not believe the scheme would be working to-day, because the Minister knows that not only the producer-retailer is now grumbling about the margin he gets upon that, but at that time the distributing trade were insisting on a margin of 10d. a gallon whilst the Minister was urging us to do it for 6d., and we were the only people who were prepared to meet him on his proposition and to help to put the scheme into operation. The Parliamentary Secretary had not a word of thanks to us on Monday, and even to-night, though the Minister smiled as usual very sweetly, he seemed to have forgotten that very important contribution which the organised consumers actually made to his scheme.
But let us look at the school scheme itself. You are now supplying milk to schools at ½d. per third of a pint bottle, instead of 1d. as formerly, and yet, on the figures that the Minister has put up, nearly 50 per cent. of our school children are still without milk. The Parliamentary Secretary gave a number of reasons, which he had gathered from inquiries in the schools and from local authorities, as to why that is.
I do not believe for a moment that any one of the reasons given is as important as the reason of poverty. I do not suggest that there is nothing at all in other reasons, particularly those which the Parliamentary Secretary outlined on Monday, but I do suggest that there is no other way for satisfactorily using the school scheme, both for the benefit of the children and for the relief of the present pressure on the manufacturing market for milk, than for the Government to arrange it, either through the province of the Estimates of the Ministry of Agriculture, or jointly with the Board of Education. As the Parliamentary Secretary, we are told, now runs in and out of the Board of Educa- tion and has such a wonderful affection for his former Ministry, perhaps he might arrange jointly with the Board of Education to put up enough money, so that we may give the whole of our school children the ration of milk. There is no other way of satisfactorily arranging either the relief of the pressure upon the manufacturing pool or giving the full benefit to the health of the nation than by giving the ration of milk to the whole of the school children. It cannot be denied that to the extent to which the school scheme has increased the amount of milk going into liquid consumption, it has been of real benefit to those who are responsible for the operation of the pool, as well as to that section of the child population in schools which has been able to take advantage of it.
I want to say a few words about the question of clean milk and the cleaning up of herds. Since 1915 we have had a variety of Governments, and for a very short time we had two Labour Governments, but when the Minister speaks about the great expedition which is now being obtained in cleaning up the herds, I wonder whether he realises that we have had all the necessary powers on the Statute Book ever since the Milk and Dairies Act of 1915, for really putting the production of milk upon a clean basis. The right hon. Gentleman says that the Milk Marketing Board are doing a great service in their accredited milk section, but he is a little wide of the mark when he suggests that the scheme of the Milk Marketing Board is, in fact, largely responsible for the improvement in the standard of production in that regard. I am sure that the Minister is aware that those of us who are interested in the larger section of the distributive trade in milk, in the modern methods of distribution and of receiving, cooling, pasteurising and bottling, have to keep records as to bacteria. If you take our experience of the past 11 or 12 years and the actual records of bacteria of milk, it is not true to suggest that the number of people who are regarded as being within the accredited scheme of the Milk Board have increased so enormously because the standard is so good. It means that there is a very large number of farmers whose herds always have been producing dean milk who have never applied for a licence because they were not certain of always being able to reach the standards required, on any day a sample of milk might be taken but who, in fact, with their connection with the distributive trade and the keeping of a check on bacteria, were supplying good clean milk. Those who have done the most towards improving the standard and quality of milk are the people who have kept a check on the producer. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not take the propaganda of the Milk Board in this matter as being the whole of the truth. I think it is beginning to regularise what has already been introduced for so long by the important retail and pasteurising organisations in the country.
When the right hon. Gentleman speaks about the cleaning up of herds, he takes a great responsibility in the Department. He cannot have forgotten the Gowland Hopkins Report It is not very old. Only 18 months ago the report told us that 40 per cent. of our cows now react to the tuberculin test. It wants a bit of cleaning up, does it not? If one takes the same report one sees how wasteful is the present organisation of milk production in this country because of the way in which milch cows are being killed off. They are being killed off after about 4½ years, when if they were properly maintained on a healthy basis they might be expected to be good milk yielders for anything up to 10, 11 or 12 years. I believe that it was the Gowland Hopkins Report that told us on that point that, in consequence of the lack of efficient organisation in production, or rather because of the wasteful methods which are followed, there is an annual loss of about £3,000,000 to the dairy industry. On the basis of the subsidy which the Minister is proposing to-day—something over £2,000,000 over 18 months—the whole of the money could be met by remedying the loss on the present basis of the organisation of the milk herds of this country. I am not complaining to him as to the responsibility for the present position in the herds. All I am saying is, that if he is taking the Gowland Hopkins Report, which is vital, as a code of instruction of what ought to be done with regard to cleaning up the herds in order to get a larger number in the accredited milk scheme, we shall be satisfied. It wants a much bigger, and a more intensive and scientific scheme if we are to get rid of a position in which there are 40 per cent. of our herds reacting at the present time to the tuberculin test.
I should like to risk the criticism which the right hon. Gentleman suggested might be forthcoming if I dealt with some of the matters which are before the Committee of Investigation. I cannot avoid it, because the real reason for the subsidy is the general position of the milk industry in the country, namely, that we should endeavour to increase the general liquid consumption of milk throughout the whole population. There is a large surplus on the present demand —not on the demand as it ought to be if all the people were getting their proper quota—for milk which goes for manufacture and is sold at varying prices, utilisation values, from about 3…d. up to 6d., 6…d. and 7d. a gallon. The present position is so absurd that the milk producer who formerly sold all his milk to the liquid consuming market, and who managed to make a reasonable surplus, is to-day worse off than he was before the inception of the scheme, although the Milk Marketing Board are charging higher contract prices to the distributor and the population are paying higher retail prices.
Is the right hon. Gentleman informing the House that the milk producers do not appreciate the fact that they are voluntarily cooperating in order to help each other, and that the return is being pooled in order that all those who are in the industry may benefit? I should have thought it was a fine example to the rest of the country.
The hon. Member has made just the kind of explanation he would make in his constituency, in which I was born, one of the great dairying constituencies of the country. It is a constituency with two sides, the side nearest Bristol sending its milk into the Bristol liquid consumption market and the side nearest Glastonbury forced to send most of the milk produced in that area to the factory. I can imagine the hon. Member making that gracious little speech in his own constituency. There is no doubt that a large number of milk producers feel that in the pooling system they are developing a co-operation which they think will ultimately he of benefit, but that is not the universal opinion. I read my Press. What do the farmers of the West Riding of Yorkshire say, and also those farmers who led the last ramp against the scheme? The fact we have to remember is that in consequence of the plan which is being run the most important side of the market for milk production in this country is being injured and not helped.
But would not that side of milk production have been injured much more if competition had not been stopped? These other districts would have come into competition and they would not have been able to sell their milk, whereas now all the milk is taken by the Milk Board.
I shall have to say a word on the question of the level of the production of milk. Take the actual contract prices for milk under the Milk Board. You have to-day an increase in the present contract price of something like 2s. 9d. per dozen gallons wholesale in provincial areas, and in the London area an increase of something like 1s. 6d. per dozen gallons since the scheme came into operation. What is the effect on the farmer? I have the evidence submitted at the public inquiry from the Milk Marketing Board, which shows that whereas the average increase in the contract price had been 1s. 3…d. per gallon, the net result improvement to the farmer has been only 6 of a penny. The rest has all gone in the subsidy to a new and growing production of manufactured dairy produce which in my judgment is quite uneconomic at the present time. The case put up is that the milk producer is not being paid sufficient for his labour. Surely that cannot be the case with regard to those producers who have been producing milk for liquid consumption. If that was the case how are you going to explain the fact that before the milk scheme came in and with an average price of 12s. per dozen gallons, we nevertheless had every year an, increased output of milk by farmers? How do you explain the fact that since the scheme has been operating, although the pool price has not made any real advance because of the subsidy on the losses on manufacturing milk, you have nevertheless every month with- out fail seen an increase compared with the corresponding period of the previous year in the output?
One would think to hear the farmers say that they were in a dreadful way with regard to dairy production. It is not true. I listened to the public inquiry and to the evidence of a body of economists who were produced by the Milk Marketing Board. I have the figures of costings here, collected from different areas, showing that the cost of production is in some areas as low as 6¼d. per gallon and in other areas as high as 1s. 3d. Is it not reasonable that in our Amendment we should ask for a reorganisation of production and make it actually efficient? It is not as though farmers with cheaper production costs are not accredited producers. Many of these farmers are giving accredited milk under the scheme and producing it at an average cost of between 7d. and 8d. per gallon. There is no case at all for this spectacular rise in the contract prices which has been demanded from the trade and which has to be passed on in the case of the prescribed contracts for 1933–34 and 1934–35.
Let the House be under no misapprehension as to the actual effect of this on the industry as a whole. I instanced at the public inquiry the town of Derby, which I should not describe as a depressed area. Perhaps that is why the Secretary of State got back to this House. There is a steady employed population. In the organisation with which I have the honour to be connected in that town we are responsible for over 70 per cent. of the distribution of liquid milk, and we are able, therefore, to keep and measure accurately the figures. What do we find? In the period of operation of the scheme, since the board has been prescribing these prices with a rise in price to the consumer of liquid milk, although the number of customers is expanding day by day there has, in the last two and a half years, been a decline in the quantity of milk purchased per customer. At the same time there has been an increase in the sales of the Cooperative Society in Derby of 140 per cent. of condensed milk, and more recently there has been a big spurt, unfortunately, in the sale of tinned skimmed milk. I think it shows plainly that the price of liquid milk can be too high. When it goes above a certain level, consumption begins to drop. In what the Parliamentary Secretary said on Monday last about the level of liquid milk consumption, there was one point of which he failed to take account, and that is the increase in population during the last 2… years. If he takes the actual number of gallons of increased consumption in respect of school children and sees how much real increase has taken place apart from that, he will find that it is not commensurate with the actual increase in population.
There is no doubt that the present price level is too high. We do not say that all the fault lies with the producer. We say that the producer needs to be gingered up by the Department, which is reponsible for the producer's welfare, into a more efficient production but we also say that we need an efficient method of distribution. Directly we say that, however, the right hon. Gentleman immediately becomes anxious about the small distributors in the rural areas. Yet if you are to have a really efficient distribution of clean, healthy, bottled milk to all the population and not merely to sections of it, you must have a real national basis of organised distribution.
On that subject let me say that the offer which I have made at public inquiries, from our co-operative section of the distributing trade, is one which might well be examined. It would not be right to ask the Minister or the Parliamentary Secretary to offer an opinion upon the details of that offer to-night and I recognise the force of what the Minister has said about the matter being at present sub judice as far as he is concerned. But if the kind of offer which I made at the milk inquiry were adopted—under which we pay a margin out of the retail distribution of milk of nine-twelfths of a penny per gallon in return for a contribution of three-twelfths from the producer—and if we realise that that would enable us, right through the great provincial towns, to sell milk at 5d. a quart, bottled and pasteurised, during the summer months when you are getting a great flush of milk, there is no question of what the effect would be upon the general position of liquid milk consumption in this country.
Take the case of London. While you have higher costs of distribution in London than in the provinces, the offer that was made would enable you to have in London six months' distribution at the retail summer price instead of four months, with the consequent effect that that would have on the general level of consumption. There is no other way under Heaven by which the problem of increasing the production of a necessary food can be solved, except to bring it to the doors of the millions of general consumers at a price which they can afford. If you treat the matter from that point of view, and do so as early as possible, you will make the largest contribution that you can make to the future of this industry. On the general question of distribution, I ought to add for my party that if we have been able to prove cooperatively before a public inquiry after 36 days of investigation, with full and audited accounts, that this can be done, there is not any reason why any Government with the power to do it, should not get down to the organisation of the distribution of this great foodstuff on the same basis for the whole country.
We say that there is a great case for such a reorganisation of distribution. I wish I had more time, but I have taken too long already in dealing with the problem in which I am very deeply interested. It is a problem which has a great deal to do with the future of the country. We want to see the dairying industry doing well. We want, above all, to see our people being fed on this splendid healthy food. Hon. Members opposite, most of whom are now conspicuous by their absence during the dinner-hour, will shortly, from indications that have been given to the country, be asking once more for an A.I nation to deal with the next appeal for war. If they were thinking about the matter, even from that standpoint alone, they ought to be seeing to it now. They ought to be helping to build, not a C.3 nation such as we heard of in the last war period, but an A.I nation. Not that I would for a moment urge the war motive as the real motive. I only take the two arguments together from that point of view. We want our people to be A.1 so that they may have what Mr. Fisher once, as Minister for Education, speaking from that Box, described as the right to enjoy all the best that life can offer in the spheres of knowledge, emotion and hope. That enjoyment will never come to those who are not adequately equipped in health.
8.52 p.m.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillsborough (Mr. Alexander) said that the subsidy was not popular, and I do not suppose that the subsidy has been popular. But I think we can compliment the Minister on realising the fact that things are sometimes unpopular because of people's ignorance or lack of knowledge, and to-night he put forward many arguments to prove that although in the minds of some this may not be popular, it has served a good purpose. It is not for me to add to what the right hon. Gentleman said on that point except in one respect. It ought not to be forgotten that the industrial population have received a considerable amount of benefit through the subsidy which has been given to the milk industry. That subsidy was given largely because of the competition of articles from abroad which compete with those which have been manufactured from the surplus milk of this country. Those articles were allowed to continue to come into this country because of the necessity—the very great necessity as I admit—of maintaining an oversea market for the manufactured articles made in this country. Consequently, indirectly, it has been an advantage to the industrial community to maintain the oversea market which could not have been done, unless those abroad were allowed to pay for our manufactured articles with the dairy products which they were sending into this country.
The Amendment speaks of increased consumption. Everybody agrees that it is desirable that the public should have an opportunity to increase the consumption of milk. But how is that to be done? That is a question. Is it a question of quantity? The quantity of milk required is produced, because a large amount has to go for manufacture. It would be much better for the farmer if he could sell more, even perhaps at a reduced price, for liquid consumption instead of so much having to go for manufacture. Is it a question of price? If it is, who is to give the advantage of a reduced price to the consumer? Is the distributor to give it? The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillsborough represents a large distributing agency. He did not say how they were going to reduce the price. I do not think he would contest the fact that when prices were being considered and arranged, the Co-operative Society supported the distributors in their demand for the better prices.
I have had to challenge that statement right through the public inquiry. They offered to discuss with the producers a lower price on both sides—a lower margin for distribution and a somewhat lower price for the producer—but the producers refused to discuss it.
I will not contradict what the right hon. Gentleman says, but I was under the impression that there was a certain amount of support given by the Co-operative Society to the other distributors. I will not refute the right hon. Gentleman's statement without being able to give the actual authority. Must the producers lower the price? Here again I do not want to make an attack on the Co-operative Society, but the right hon. Gentleman will know that as producers of milk they have gone out of the industry. The amount of land they now hold as compared with the amount they used to hold for agricultural purposes is very small.
We must be fair about this. The farming which is now retained by the Co-operative Society is dairy farming. It is the non-dairy farming that has gone out of our ownership.
The fact remains that the society have not taken up more dairying and have not increased their production. They are producing less milk than they did at one time. The right hon. Gentleman referred to the varying costs and said that producers must make their costs of production much more uniform. There are certain areas where that is impossible because the costs of production do not always depend on the efficiency of the producer. There are other conditions which make it impossible for the costs to be the same. You cannot produce in a poor hill country at the same costs as you can on the lush grass land of the south-west. Consequently, there are limits to the argument with regard to the uniform costs of production.
The right hon. Gentleman said that farmers have increased production, and he almost led us to suppose that because of that milk was a very paying proposition. He knows as well as I do that the increased production of milk has been caused very largely because of the unbalanced state of agriculture. I am hoping that when the Government have brought forward their schemes for the other sections of agriculture, the production of milk will decrease. There are certain areas where milk is being produced in which previously they were producing beef, and the farmers there will be only too glad to go back to beef production. Milk production is one of the most arduous sections of the industry, for it means work on seven days a week with two or three shifts on Sunday. I am not going to justify the present price to the consumer. If price were less, consumption would probably go up, but even at its present price the food value of milk is superior to that of any other food, with the exception, I believe, of herring. I would carry that further and include milk products such as cheese and butter. The quality too, is undoubtedly good. It is true that we hear of percentages of samples of milk which are unsatisfactory. They can be found in any food, however. When percentages of samples are taken, it is not indicative of the percentage of the quantity produced. One sample may be taken from a small quantity and proved unsatisfactory, while another sample, taken from a large quantity, is proved satisfactory. In the returns, however, they are put down as two samples, without regard to the fact that the quantities from which they were taken were dissimilar. The right hon. Gentleman said that 40 per cent. of the cows were reacters. That is an unfair remark to make without qualification. A reacting cow does not always give tuberculous milk. It is the cow that has a tuberculous udder that gives tuberculous milk and 40 per cent. of the cows are not in that condition. I grant that a cow reacts if she is affected by any lesion throughout her body and that there will be a danger of that cow giving tuberculous milk. To make a statement that 40 per cent. of the cows are reacters, without qualifications, however, gives the public a wrong idea of the quality of the milk that is on the market.
The hon. Gentleman will not deny that the statement made by the Gowland Hopkins Report was that, after full investigations, they found that 40 per cent. of the cows were reacters. Worse still, is it not the case that they see no sign of a diminution of that percentage?
I am not denying it, but I suggest that even if there were 40 per cent. it was not 40 per cent. which were affected in the udder, and these are the cows which are giving tubercular milk. There is far too much said about milk. If there were more drunk and less talked about it, we should be very much better in health. I hope that those people who are being continually fed on the assumption that because a subsidy is being given to the industry, the industry is being spoonfed, will realise that it is being done in the interests of the community and that the community is reaping the benefit.
9.4 p.m.
The hon. Member for Stone (Sir J. Lamb) said that the milk subsidy would be more popular if there were less ignorance. I think, on the contrary, that if the British public knew exactly what is happening and the reason for the exaggerated price they are paying for milk, there would be a storm. The hon. Gentleman eulogised the qualities of milk and said that if there were more drunk and less said about it, the better. I do not propose to take up time by eulogising the quality and value of milk, because we are all agreed about that, and what we ought to concentrate on is the price of milk. It is not the case in the Derby Society only; up and down the country we have found, as retailers of milk, that a lowering of the price always sends up the gallonage. An increase in price may bring an increased return, but always the volume of consumption per head falls, because wages are more or less stable and if the price of milk goes up less can be purchased. This Debate is symptomatic of the problems confronting the present Government, with their almost, if not entirely, hopeless task of modifying a competitive profit-inspired system which is breaking down on land, as we are dealing with it to-night, and on sea, as we are dealing with it this afternoon.
All the Measures dealt with since this Parliament assembled have been diverse experiments in trying to patch up the competitive system and to some extent eliminate competition. A few years ago the fathers of the present Members of the Government, and some of them themselves in their earlier days, proclaimed that our economic salvation depended on free competition, but now, in Debate after Debate, efforts are made to circumscribe competition. Always, be it noted, it is either cut-throat competetion or unfair competition, but there is no analysis to decide where the cut-throat is to be separated from the legitimate. In this experiment we are loading on to the consumer a portion of the cost of eliminating competition. The cardinal mistake in this experiment has been that while there has been an attempt to eliminate competition there has been no attempt to eliminate the expansion of the volume put on the market, and year after year since this system has been in operation there has been an increase in the quantity of milk on the market. Each year has seen an increase in the dairy herds.
A good deal of discontent is caused among the farming community through old-established dairy farmers having to meet competition from others who have come into the dairy industry without previous experience, were not in farming at all. They have come in and built temporary sheds or adapted stalls, and have bought relatively cheap stock—because most of them were short of cash—and now they are dairy farmers, and the old-established dairy farmer has to contribute towards subsidising his competitor down the street who has become a burden on the scheme. We on these benches have no idea of patching up the competitive system. We stand for its supersession by a co-operative system collectively owned and run in the interests of the whole community. But while trying to patch up the system the Government ought to have had sufficient sense to say that they would assist only those who were dairy farmers at that time and not others who have come in—that these latter should get no allowance on the milk which goes for manufacture. It is unfair to lay a burden on those who have been established for many years to assist others who have come in and who are, on the whole, working to a much lower standard of efficiency. I could not follow how the Minister worked it out that this scheme had meant cheaper butter and cheaper cheese for the consuming public. Does he suggest that the world exporters of dairy produce fixed a lower price for butter and cheese coming into this country than for that sold anywhere else?
They have been subsidising.
This scheme has not subsidised the foreign cheese. A good deal of it is Colonial. The bulk of the imported dairy produce handled by the society with which I am associated is Colonial.
I said the importers had subsidised theirs, but not subsidised ours, paying 2½d. subsidy and another 2…d. on account of their monetary conditions, making 5d. per 1b.
It is a case of claiming merit for all the world complications and all the experiments tried everywhere. I feel satisfied that, irrespective of this scheme, we should have been able to purchase these commodities at the prices now ranging. It reminds me of the argument of the farmer who said he had lost £30. He had taken some of his stock to market and reckoned on making £130, but the market slumped and he made only £100, and on the way home he was moaning over a loss of £30. He only imagined he had made it, and here it is imaginative figures that we are getting.
There is nothing imaginative about any of my figures. I said the other day that without the scheme we should not have been able to have these cheap supplies or the expansion of the dairy industry and I am sure the hon. Member would not deny that.
The right hon. Gentleman cannot have it both ways. If you are going to claim you have saved your dairy industry, well, you have saved it, but you have not at the same time given the people all these foodstuffs at a lower price.
That is exactly the point of the action we have taken.
You will have to convince the average housewife of that, and she is not going to think only of these one or two things, she thinks of bacon and the other commodities which have raised the cost of living in working class homes. We are dealing with figures which, to my mind, are largely imaginary, at least hypothetical, on the view that something might or might not have happened if we had done this or done that. If they had wanted to retain their position they could have reduced their prices and worked harder.
Let me come to a figure about which there is no dispute, and a figure which ought to be known throughout the length and breadth of the land. We have a dairy in York. Under this scheme the milk comes in, it is pasteurised, and it goes out. Some of that milk goes into working class homes where there are growing children and an urgent need for milk as food. There is no doubt that milk is most economically consumed when taken in its liquid form, if it is pure and clean. Among our members—and this is typical of the whole countryside—are old age pensioners who have to perform the amazing miracle of living on 10s. a week, or, if there are two of them, £l a week. If they cannot manage that, there is the "house" for them. The most satisfactory food for old age, as for infants, is fresh, pure milk. It is the best safeguard against rheumatism, which is the curse of old age among the working class of this country. If we were humane we would stretch every nerve and put every ounce of energy into an effort to secure that a maximum supply of fresh, pure milk went into the homes of our people.
Our society, like every other society, endeavoured to reduce the price of milk to 6d. all the year round, but because we were a minority factor against the ordinary dairy producer-retailers, we were not able to do so. Under the present scheme, you can be right on top of the market as a consumers' organisation and be concerned only to make a success of this business, but you can be out-voted because there are a whole lot of little people who very often are delivering milk in your bottles because they cannot afford bottles themselves. It is not only the old people who need milk but the unemployed with their growing children. There are War widows, some of whom have no claim to pension and now have to go to a public assistance committee. I interviewed only this week one who has to bring up a young family. You are asking all these people to pay 2s. 4d. a gallon for their milk, for a commodity which, coming from the same farms and going through the same dairy, passes into the factory next door at a few pence per gallon. Can you defend that on moral grounds? It is absolutely unanswerable.
What is the milk used for in the factories? We have dealt with this aspect of the subject at very considerable length. We have dealt with umbrella handles. I do not know who introduced umbrella handles, but it was obviously a snag. People cannot eat an umbrella handle, although they can suck it. Where does the milk go? It goes into chocolate. It makes milk chocolate. Before that milk chocolate reaches the public, a very considerable proportion of cost is added to it to meet the cost of advertising. This highly specialised milk chocolate is sold only to people who can afford chocolate, and they are not the poor unemployed people, nor the old age pensioners. Thus people who can never afford milk chocolate have to pay 2s. 4d. a gallon for their milk, so that something of the margin can go into the pool to enable milk to go to the manufacturers to be turned into chocolate cream and milk chocolate. If you can justify that on any human, moral ground, I shall be glad to hear it, and you will go up highly in my estimation.
Let us come to the question of wages. The greatest tragedy of the whole of this business is the appalling wages of the agricultural labourer. A little while ago we were discussing sugar beet, and I remember it was stated from the Government Front Bench that because of the subsidy there had been a rise in wages. It was amazing. The general rise in the country was, we were told, 1s. 4d.—or was it 1s. 5d? In the areas where sugar beet had gone, there was a rise of wages of 1s. 9½d., or 4d. or 4½d. difference per week. When are we going to get out of talk like this about agricultural labourers' wages? Under the competitive system, which always puts the burden on the one beneath, the burden of industry and the burden of life always comes down to those nearest the soil. I suppose the agricultural labourer ought to pass a little bit of it on to the worms or something else, but they have too much intelligence; they wriggle. Our system is a pyramid, built up on labour which is ill and inadequately paid. I remember during those War periods—
I must remind the hon. Gentleman that we are supposed to be discussing milk.
Yes, we are discussing milk, but also the problems that arise out of the small wages paid to the people who produce it and the prices paid by the people who buy the commodity. Both those subjects were mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman who introduced the Bill, and I claim the right to reply on those points. At the appeal tribunals during the War, the farmers suddenly discovered what wonderful men the agricultural labourers were and how they were tremendously highly skilled and absolutely necessary. The farmers did not exaggerate. The British agricultural labourer is a highly skilled workman who is doing absolutely invaluable service to the community. What guarantee have we in the Bill that a single farthing of the additional contribution from the public purse will go to the people who produce milk? None at all.
Under the Bill, no provision is made for the board to present to Parliament a report of its proceedings, nor is any opportunity provided for Members of this House to decide whether the money is being used wisely or unwisely. Before this Measure becomes satisfactory to us we want to see that point established. When a board is receiving public money and is empowered by law to exploit the whole of the milk consuming public in the interests of a minority, that consuming public should be represented on the board. I support the Amendment.
9.23 p.m.
While welcoming what has been done by the Government to strengthen the milk industry I must deplore that these arrangements are being carried on for a further period of 18 months, because that is longer than is desirable after the Reorganisation Commission will have reported. I am aware that that committee has not reported, but on 25th July last the Minister gave a definite pledge to the milk industry. He said:
The object of the Act has been to increase the sale of liquid milk, but I do not think we can be satisfied that that has really been achieved.
The increase in liquid milk which is being sold at the present time is almost entirely accounted for by the increase due to the quantity which is being given to the children in the schools at an uneconomic price. I am most anxious that our children should drink milk, and I welcome the arrangements that have been made for giving milk to children in the schools. I should like to see them extended. I consider that that scheme is a very valuable social service; but I do not consider that it is an economic contribution to the problem of the milk industry in this country. We have voted very large sums of money in order that people should be induced to drink more milk. In America, Sweden and other countries twice as much milk is drank per head as is drunk here, and I would like to ask the Minister if careful investigations have been made as to what the system of marketing and distribution is in those countries and what advertising method for encouraging the sale of milk has been carried out in those countries.
I welcome the Minister's statement this evening that he is not satisfied that all that is possible had been done by the Ministry to cleanse our herds. Pasteurisation comes, as the Minister said, under the Milk Board. In any case it is a palliative and a most inadequate method of dealing with the problem. The slaughtering of tuberculous cows is extraordinarily costly, and by that method it will be a long time before the herds of this country are free from Koch bacillus. We should endeavour to immunise every calf at birth against tuberculosis. It is not long ago that in Northern Ireland results of tests with the Spahlinger vaccine were made public. I think it was conclusively proved that the use of that vaccine, which is absolutely safe because it is a dead vaccine, would immunise our calves. We have not yet heard that the Ministry intend to make that vaccine available to farmers. I should like to hear what steps the Minister is taking with regard to making it available. I believe that if we could— as I believe we can—ensure tubercle-free milk, we should popularise milk, and aid our agricultural industry and do much to save our nation from the scourge of tuberculosis. I am anxious to see the milk industry a prosperous industry and the whole of agriculture a prosperous industry. I represent a division where large quantities of butter and cheese are produced and to-day that production is declining because of the tremendous amount of butter and cheese which is being imported, and I cannot help feeling that the money which we are voting is helping our dominions rather more than it is helping the home agricultural industry. I hope that when the Reorganisation Commission has reported legislation will be brought in on the lines recommended in the report as speedily as possible, because otherwise the present position may have crystallised and we may have an even larger surplus of milk than we have to-day.
9.29 p.m.
The Minister appealed to hon. Members in all parts of the House to support this Bill, under which we are to vote a large sum of money to meet a certain situation. May we pause for a moment to examine how that situation has arisen? This is how it is said by the Parliamentary Secretary to have arisen. Last Monday he said: the price of butter is 10 per cent. higher than in 1933 and that of cheese one per cent. higher.
The situation which we are facing tonight has in very large measure been caused by the policy of the Milk Marketing Board, which has penalised those farmers who took their farms near towns knowing that they could and intended to sell their milk, wholesale or retail, as liquid milk. They have been penalised for the benefit of the hill farmers, who took their farms at lower rates. This Bill tends to make that situation worse. In introducing this Bill for the first time two years ago the Minister said that no practical agriculturist in the House would contend that the prices represented anything like remunerative prices or prices at which milk producers would be tempted to extend their production. Surely the Minister has progressed a good deal in that he does not make that prophecy again in reintroducing the Bill to-night. The only justification for this Bill is that it is a stop-gap. As such it was introduced two years ago. The main objectives, it was said two years ago, were to secure an increased consumption of milk, to secure the confidence of the public in its milk supplies, and to hold the position while these two campaigns get under way.
The Bill holds the position while the long-term policy is being worked out. We realise that a long-term policy requires careful consideration and periods of test, and that the Minister must not be rushed; but what is the policy of this Bill? It is to buy time for the Minister to think. Five pounds per minute is the cost of the Minister's thoughts, and we are entitled to know rather more what the results of his. valuable thought are likely to be before we vote for a continuance of this policy. We were told by the Parliamentary Secretary that we must wait until the end of October when the Ottawa Agreements expire. Of the meat subsidy that you are paying to-day probably not 10 per cent. reaches the farmer. Therefore, making an assumption in the Minister's favour, you might work out a subsidy by which 50 per cent. would reach the producer. On that it would cost you a levy of £8,000,000 to increase the price of milk by a penny a gallon. Is that to be the policy of the Government? Have the Government nothing as a really big contribution except this levy and subsidy? Is that going to be the result of 3½ years of thought at £5 a minute? I have thought of a better policy. Let us put 6d. on the Income Tax, see how much that brings in, and divide it up among the farmers straight away. If such a policy is to be introduced into this House and described as a carefully thought out solution of the agricultural problem, the next time the Minister of Labour introduces the Unemployment (Temporary Provisions) (Extension) Bill we will congratulate him on solving the unemployment problem. The two things are exactly on a par. The House has a right to know what is going on behind this wall in which we are perpetually stopping gaps at this colossal expense of public money. It ought to be clear by now that the only hope for a real improvement in the milk position lies in cleaner milk, better distribution, better organisation, a publicity campaign, and a really national policy of nutrition. The Minister says that he is working along these lines. He was asked two years ago by the hon. Member for Don Valley: we have seen up to now. In answer to a question put by my hon. Friend the Member for North Cumberland (Mr. W. Roberts) the Minister indicated that the cost of testing each of these herds was no less than £155. If he will look up the Debate of two years ago he will see that my right hon. Friend the Member for North Cornwall (Sir F. Acland) offered to put him in touch with a most eminent doctor who claimed to be able, by vaccination, to safeguard cows throughout their lives from any reasonably probable infection. I know that all sorts of people put forward all sorts of fantastic claims in regard to cures of this kind, and it may be that I overestimate the importance of the right hon. Baronet the Member for North Cornwall, but I say that when in the course of a Debate a Member of his standing puts forward a suggestion of that kind, and says he is convinced of its bona fides, one would have thought that, at the expense of l½d. stamp, a request would have been made to the right hon. Baronet for a little further information. The offer to give that information is still open.
Coming to the question of distribution and organisation, on the 11th February of last year the Reorganisation Commission was appointed to go into the question of milk distribution. At that time, when the Commission was appointed, the Minister knew that on this day he would be coming down to the House to ask for an extension of this policy at the rate of £5 a minute. If he had been really keen to get on with the job of better organisation, could he not, and would he not, have seen to it that that Commission had reported before now, rather than at some time next May, so that we could have something on which to found some future policy? With regard to the inquiry into distributive margins, is it not rather unfortunate that this matter, which is now under report, should be outside the control of the Minister? It seems to me very unfortunate that the Minister has to say so often that matters connected with these schemes are outside his own responsibility and in the hands of this, that or the other marketing board. It is also a little unfortunate that the report of the inquiry into retail margins will not be received until after we have been asked to vote this money.
This problem is not a new one. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Pembroke (Major Lloyd George) quoted a passage from the Linlithgow Report of 1923. It happened, if I may say so, that that very passage from the Linlithgow Report was quoted in another book, entitled "The Farmer and his Market," which the Liberal party published in 1927, thus keeping up its perpetual tradition of (being a decade ahead of either of the other parties in working out really practical proposals for dealing with these problems. Here is another quotation from the Linlithgow Report—the Interim Report published in 1923:
I come now to the campaign for increased consumption, which includes school schemes, advertising, differential prices and the whole nutrition policy. What is the position with regard to schools? I am very glad to hear that there is to be some method of distribution of milk to school children during the holidays, but there has been a drop from 2,750,000 to 2,500,000 in the number of school children, and no proposal seems to be brought forward to deal with that situation. I think it was the Parliamentary Secretary who said that the difference between schools in comparable areas makes it desirable that a further experimental period should be continued, so that the long-term policy might be framed on the results of practice and not on the results of theory. But what tests and experiments do the Government need? In September they had figures showing the fall in consumption in the schools in Lanarkshire, and they received from head teachers, within a fortnight of that time, five reasons for the fall. One was that cold milk made the children feel sick, which is very reasonable. One would have thought that by now the Minister would have been able to make some experiments, even if only on warming the milk or adding warm water to it, of which he could have told the House. When are these experiments going to begin?
With regard to the question of advertising, I have already quoted the prices of cheese and butter, but these quotations are for foreign cheese and foreign butter, because there are no prices for British cheese and British butter. Why? Because there is no standard British cheese or butter. [HON. MEMBERS: "There is the National Mark."] I have made inquiries at the shops in the principal town in my constituency about that, and it comes to extraordinarily little to-day. The effect of the National Mark Scheme on the general run of business, at any rate in that town, is very small indeed. I have heard from the principal wholesale grocer in the town that since the advertising of the National Mark entirely stopped, the demand for National Mark products has practically disappeared. In regard to this matter the Linlithgow Report of 1923 stated: to compete with us and bring pressure to bear on their nationals to make them produce on terms which will enable them to compete with us; but when is our Government going to bring pressure on our nationals, the producers of cheese and butter, to produce those goods in a standardised form which can be recognised by their labels from one end of the country to the other, which will not vary in quality and which can be dealt in by the wholesalers and retailers in large quantities? These facts have been known for over 10 years—why was not something done a long time ago?
With regard to differential prices, the Minister said that there must be tests and experiments before a long-term policy can be framed. In answer to a question which I put concerning differential prices, the Minister said that an experiment was started in Merthyr Tydfil but was dropped because there was opposition. Does anybody doubt that if the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs had been Minister for Agriculture that kind of experiment would have been carried out by now, so that, in the Minister's own words, we could base our policy on practice and not on theory?
May I guess the sort of reply that is likely to be made to the criticisms of the Minister which have been advanced on many sides? We shall be asked to disregard the past, to trust to the future and to look only to the present; and we shall be asked how we can get on without the subsidies for which he is asking. I will give the answer that was given to the man who asked, "How can I get to Roscommon?" The answer was, "Sure, if I was going to Roscommon I would not start from here." We are wholly dissatisfied with the record of the Government in this matter. We are wholly unconvinced of the Minister's determination and initiative in the future. We intend to express our disappointment at what has been done and what is proposed in the only way in which we can express it, by going into the Lobby against the Minister; and we venture to think that there are many Members on the Government Benches whose feelings are exactly the same as ours. If they had had the courage to express their feelings in the way that we are going to express ours, the Minister's performance during the last few months would have been a great deal better than it has been.
9.47 p.m.
I would like to say to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture that those who will go into the Lobby to-night in support of this Bill—and we shall do so with considerable enthusiasm—are nevertheless divided rather sharply in their support of the schemes in general. There are some people who look upon a scheme as a good thing purely because it is a scheme; and there are others—the nearer the Tweed the more pronounced their opinions are on the subject—who look upon a scheme for the sake of a scheme with suspicion from the beginning as being inclined to interfere with the independence and initiative which they esteem more highly perhaps than do those south of the Tweed.
It is only because these particular schemes possess a degree of flexibility that we are glad to accept them and work them as being possibility a form of inoculation against the poisonous virus that might be given us from the other side of the House. But although we accept these schemes because we realise that the conditions of the day make them imperative, we are keenly alive to the fact that even the best of them interfere to a certain extent, and with grievous results on a few people, with the individual enterprise and the flexibility of marketing whichever branch of the agricultural industry may happen to be involved. I have a little first-hand acquaintance with the working of the milk scheme in the south of Scotland. It was the first of the schemes to be started, and consequently it had not the advantage of being able to learn from the mistakes of others.
I have one plea which I would like to put to my right hon. Friend to-night, and it is on the subject of the flexibility which we have sacrificed in consenting to these schemes for the benefit of the great majority. This lack of flexibility is reacting on a small minority. I know that on reading the local papers in the South of Scotland one might be led to suppose that the minority is not so small, but I am satisfied that it is small. Nevertheless, the conditions of some of the persons who form that minority are very serious. I know of a number of cases in four different counties in the South of Scotland which are affected by the scheme, and all these cases are more or less similar. They are cases of people who previously had assured markets and who have not benefited from the scheme in any way. They have their fixed sales which have not altered since the scheme came into operation. They merely pay levies on these sales, now without any apparent compensation.
I hope that the Committee of Investigation which is sitting will make it their duty to endeavour to introduce some form of flexibility into the present operation of the marketing Acts. I would suggest to my right hon. Friend that if they do make such a recommendation, he should give it his serious consideration, and if they do not, I suggest that he should take some steps on his own account to help the people who are victims of the schemes which have benefited most of their friends. I would urge that powers be given either to the board, or to some Committee appointed by it or to the Minister himself; and that these powers should be to review cases for the purpose of giving compensation to a man, who, through no fault of his own, but merely because he has been caught up in the machinery of the scheme—which has benefited most people but broken him— and has suffered seriously as a conse-uence of the scheme. There may be others to whom it is not necessary to pay compensation, but in their cases the board or the Committee might be allowed to liberate them from the operation of the scheme.
If there could be introduced into these schemes some such additional element of flexibility which would prevent the machinery from crushing the few persons whom it does not happen to suit and who, through no fault of their own, are being broken for the benefit of the vast majority, I think that introduction would make the schemes infinitely better, and make it much easier to carry out not only the present schemes but others that may be in contemplation. I hope my hon. Friend will bear this in mind, and see whether he cannot do something to help these people.
9.54 p.m.
I am sure all hon. Members will feel sympathy with the hon. and gallant Member who has just spoken, and who has given us an example of the enthusiasm shown by Scottish Members. I thought the hon. Member was rather disturbed and I congratulate him on his courage in rising to speak at all. He said that they accepted the Measure as a kind of preventive medicine against something that might come from this side of the House. I am sorry for the hon. and gallant Member. I am afraid that he is feeling the effects of the inoculation rather severely, and I am sure that the preventive treatment is worse than any possible disease could be. He referred to a class of producer in Scotland who is suffering very much from the operation of recent legislation. There is no relief for that class of producer in this Bill. The Bill merely proposes to continue for another 18 months what has been in operation for two years. We have no necessity to criticise the Bill; it has already been condemned. Hon. Members on both sides must have heard a great deal about it from their constituents. We are passing judgment really upon a Measure that has been at work for a considerable time. The Government's purpose has been revealed plainer and plainer. What they are doing in their state of confusion is trying to buy political favours by instalment payments to one class or another, but those instalments are not satisfactory. The hon. and gallant Member has told us of the discontent of Scotsmen at the rates of assistance given to them. The Measure is condemned. It is no solution of the problem with which it seeks to deal. It is not a problem which can be settled by homeopathic medicine or inoculation. The disease from which the agricultural industry is suffering is connected with national economics.
Apparently hon. Members opposite pay no attention to what is said on this side, but every complaint from the farming community and from the supporters of the Government have but re-echoed what has been foreshadowed from this side in the last few years. This Bill does exactly what the Government and its predecessor have been trying to do for a long time, and that is to continue the payments to certain classes of producers for a certain period "out of moneys provided by Parliament." Parliament has come to be regarded by industry after industry as a kind of milch cow. The farmers have begun to look upon this House as their means of livelihood, their guarantee against producers' risks and industrial depression. That idea is being kept up by this Bill. This is but a continuation of the system of subsidies, bonuses, and quota payments that have come into operation. What kind of Government is this? The hon. and gallant Member opposite said that he was afraid of something that might come from this side. What is it that comes from the Government he supports? What kind of policy does it pursue? They are pursuing a policy which would have been described a few years ago as rank Socialism. The Government are going round and round in circles chasing themselves and gradually and certainly they have been drawn into the vortex of collectivism by economic forces. They are coming to acknowledge the principles of collectivism which we have advocated, although they are refusing to face the true economic problems of modern society.
We have been informed that in January, 1936, the sales under contract amounted to 67.2 million gallons or 1.5 million gallons above the quantity for the same month of 1935. The sales of liquid milk amounted to 46.1 million gallons as against 45.7 million gallons in January, 1935, an increase of 0.4 million gallons. The surplus tends to grow. The Act of 1934 prescribed payments, scales of compensation, levies and fines to ensure high revenue for the producers and manufacturers of milk. How is it done? There are two parties in the milk trade, the producer and the consumer. The Government come in to form a third party. The producers themselves are divided into two divisions, the producer of milk and the manufacturer of dried milk products. There are two classes of consumers, those who consume liquid milk and those who consume manufactured milk products. The Government's plan is to subsidise manufacture in order to make use of unsaleable liquid milk, and the House is asked to vote for a continuance of existing payments "out of moneys provided by Parliament." Nothing is said about the subsidy which is provided by the people who ultimately pay the milk bill. The money provided for in this Bill is the sort of financial raft upon which the whole of this industry has been floated in the last two or three years. It is not merely the question of this subsidy that is involved. The public are told what they have to pay for milk, not by the farmer or the distributor but the Milk Board. The policy of the Government has brought about many difficulties and hardships. The public, rich and poor, are told what they have to pay. There is no longer any semblance or pretence of competition. The Milk Board lays down a uniform price and the poorest person has to pay the same price for milk as the richest person. No consideration is given to circumstances, or to volume of spending power, or to anything except the mechanical operation of the Milk Board, day after day, month after month. Regional pool prices vary from month to month, and levies vary in the same way, but the business of selling milk goes on according to plan.
The right hon. Member for North Cornwall (Sir F. Acland) pointed out on Monday that as from September, 1934, to September, 1935, there was an increase in the liquid milk sold in this country of 4 per cent., but in the same period there was an increase of manufactures of milk products of no less than 56 per cent. The great flow of milk which has made its appearance in recent years has been diverted for manufacturing purposes, and the increase in liquid milk consumption is so very small as to be imperceptible. The increase in liquid milk consumption does not reflect the prosperity of which we hear so much from the benches opposite and which is so much vaunted by the propaganda on behalf of the Government.
It is the consumer of liquid milk, after all, who pays the subsidy. It is he who pays the bill, and, whether he be rich or poor, it is from that source that the whole of the income of the milk industry comes. The liquid milk consumer pays not only for the cost of production of liquid milk, but a subsidy on the milk sent for the manufacture of butter and cheese and for factory products. The factories, with an enormously increased production, have been subsidised by the ordinary consumer, who lives in the working-class districts. The poor people, who can only afford to buy a half-pint or a quarter-pint of milk a day, make their contributions towards subsidising the milk factories that are springing up all over the country and that are making such enormous profits, but refuse to disclose their returns when required to do so in the public interest.
Those most competent to know inform me that the cost of milk production is from 9d. to 9½d. per gallon. We have heard to-night from the other side that that cost varies from 6½d. to 1s. 2d. per gallan. There must be something radically wrong with the method of costing. I cannot believe that there is this great discrepancy between the cost of producing milk in one place and in another, or that it costs twice as much to produce milk in some districts as it does in some others. I will accept the figure of 9d. to 9id. per gallon, because it has been mentioned by the one reliable expert in the House, I believe, namely, the hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams), to whom we owe so much. He is the consistently sound adviser in this House on this subject. He has gone into the investigation of prices, of production and distribution, and he has given much detailed information to this House. He is a real expert. I heard someone say that he talks milk like water. He is the one consistent champion also of the milk industry. He shows faith and confidence in the milk industry. He believes in it, and he has repeatedly pointed out to the House that the remedy lies along the lines of larger consumption. I say that the hon. Member is the one person who, like Oliver Twist, asks for more, not for himself, but always insists on the rights of the poor children of this country. He wants more milk for babes and he won't be happy till they get it.
Let us examine this question of costs and retail prices. The right hon. Member who moved the Amendment knows a great deal about distribution costs, and we shall have these in detail later. There are reasons, I understand, why the Minister cannot take the House into his confidence on that subject, and my right hon. Friend beside me feels that he too is prevented from examining it in very great detail to-day, but it must be remembered that every gallon sold to the Board or outside the Board pays a very substantial levy. Every gallon sold in this country pays a very substantial levy, in addition to the cost of production or of distribution, which finds a place in the price. The retail producer, whom I know in very large numbers, is not the great combine. As a rule, it is a matter of the small family combine. He works on a smallholding, and works very hard, producing milk and selling it under the same conditions exactly as he has sold milk for 20 or 30 years past. These people have to pay 3½d. and even more than that as a levy, and they get absolutely nothing in return for it.
I know that the hon. Gentleman who is going to follow me will say that I am wrong; he will say that they have already had an advantage in the higher price level which they share with everybody else. If that is the case, if this small producer gets the advantage from the higher level of prices, it must be true that it is the consumer who pays. That is the final argument that it is the consumer who pays. The consumer, therefore, is taxed by paying a higher price, an artificial level of prices. It is the consumer who pays, and who pays mainly for the benefit of the milk manufacturer, not to subsidise production at home to meet foreign competition, but to compete very largely with our own Dominions and our own territories overseas.
This and similar Measures upon which has been drafted the whole system of distribution of milk are based upon a subsidy, and the extent of the subsidy is the difference between the cost of production and manufacturing prices. The figures speak for themselves. Hon. Members will see quite clearly that the manufacturing industry is subsidised by the domestic consumer, and I need not go into the figures very closely. The difference between the cost of production of a gallon of milk, whether it is 9d. or 10d., and the price at which it is sold to the factory, whether it is 5d. or 6d., represents the extent of the subsidy which is being given to the manufacturing industry. I think we should call attention in this House, and again on this occasion the point should be stressed, that subsidies sufficient to pay the whole of the agricultural wages are being paid in this country at the present time. In many districts the amount of the subsidies for beet sugar growing, for wheat production, for milk production, is larger in amount than the whole of the wages paid to the agricultural workers.
The money must be going to somebody, and it is highly important that we should ask ourselves, not only where the money to meet this subsidy comes from, but where the money goes. I think it is highly important that this House should follow up that inquiry very closely. The money does not come from us, from this House. By these measures, not by straightforward taxation, we are putting a burden of taxation on the domestic consumer of this country to subsidise an industry which perhaps should not be self-supporting—this new factory system and butter and cheese production which I doubt very much, both in regard to its efficiency as an industry and to its suitability as one of our national industries. The House is invited to tinker with economic problems, stopping leaks and building barriers against economic forces. The utter disregard of the price system which is found in all this legislation need not shock us, but we would like hon. Members opposite to examine what is the result of all this sort of thing on our national economy. There are 1,250,000 agriculturists, the majority of them hired for wages, engaged in food production. This industry is far from being well organised either for production or distribution of its products. The problems of organisation are urgent and need attention. The Minister has said time and time again that he is not out for improved organisation in order to help production. He says he does not want more production. On one occasion he said it would be rank treachery against the farming population if you increased the volume of agricultural production until prices had been put right.
If you settled a number of smallholders on the land.
The right hon. Gentleman would resist the extension of smallholdings because of the increased volume of production which he feared, and its effect on the prices ruling in agriculture. He is certainly afraid of increased production. In face of all these difficulties he adopts a non possumus attitude. Nothing can be done. You must slow down production. There is no method of organisation or improved efficiency which appeals to him. He says, "Keep prices up, and here is a levy for compensating inefficient production of manufactured products." So production is to be slowed down. Milk is overflowing, and the Minister is crying out in anticipation of the spilt milk, and he persuades his colleagues to support this utterly ineffective and, I believe, ruinous kind of legislation instead of accepting the larger idea that is contained in the Amendment.
The problem to me appears to be very simple indeed. Assume a production of 1,000,000,000 gallons of unilk—that is just about the figure that is being produced at present—and assume that instead of selling 300,000,000 gallons, as we do, for milk manufacture, we make provision for the consumption of an additional 100,000,000 gallons to be given free. You could easily provide for the additional consumption of 100,000,000 gallons if you gave it to the people who are mostly in need of it and least capable of meeting the expense. I would divide that 100,000,000 gallons in this way: There are 6,000,000 children at the elementary schools. If you give them a consumption of a third of a pint per day, that will be 100 pints a year for each child. Multiply that by the total school population and you will find a very substantial increase in consumption. If you add to the consumption of the children at school the consumption of children not yet at school who could receive their daily ration, and are as much in need of it, you would make provision in that way for free consumption for children, for the poor and for clinics, hospitals and sanatoria.
I would invite the Government not to organise a policy of restriction, of juggling with prices and compensations here and there. I invite the House to organise a plan of increased consumption of the 100,000,000 gallons which need to be consumed in liquid form. That task is well within the capacity of the House. I feel sure that, approaching the task on those lines, we shall find a solution and some easement of the complaint of the hon. Member who spoke last. The hon. Gentleman says he sees no possibility at all of increasing the consumption of liquid milk. He says that until you can get more people to buy milk you cannot increase consumption. But people are buying milk, though there is some doubt whether the price is not too high. It would be infinitely better to make provision for free milk for those in need of it than to provide cheaper milk for those who have abundant means of purchasing it. We balance this 1,000,000,000 gallons of milk a year by providing for a free distribution of 100,000,000 gallons, almost exactly 10 per cent., by taking away under State auspices and out of money provided by Parliament or by the ordinary consumers of milk, that 10 per cent. of surplus which baffles the Minister and causes so much confusion. I am satisfied that if we embrace this great opportunity which comes our way and respond to the ever-growing cause of education, we shall do something to increase and to improve the physical standard of our population.
I speak as one who has known poverty. I make no complaint. I never tasted fresh milk when I was a child. We were too poor; it could not be done. I never knew the colour of fresh milk. We had small quantities of skimmed milk, and also butter-milk from time to time when my father helped at neighbouring farms in addition to the work he did at the pit. That is the way in which large numbers of people were fed in my time, and there are many who are suffering from physical defects as a result of not having been properly fed in childhood. The country is overflowing with milk and other good things. The problem is not really one of surplus production at all, but of underconsumption for which we are all responsible. If we pay the excess price for milk we do something in addition to providing the cost of production. Let that excess payment be devoted to removing the surplus by providing free milk for the children of the country, and then we shall reap an adequate reward in the improved health of the people of the country. We shall be taking steps along the right lines because all the economic problems which beset the Government and this House must be solved ultimately along the lines of increased consumption rather than along the lines of restricting consumption.
I support the Amendment with perhaps not so much eloquence as I should like, but I have never spoken on an Amendment with more conviction, and I hope that the House will do as it did last night and vote for an improved system of marketing which will not merely affect one industry, but the whole national economy. If hon. Members on the opposite side and the representatives of the Government would accept the Amendment, we should be able to make a great step forward in social reform and in the solution of the problem of milk.
10.23 p.m.
We have had two debates this week on subjects appropriate to this Bill. They have been extremely interesting debates, and extremely valuable if only for the sake of the publicity which these discussions have given. I mentioned publicity advisedly because the Bill makes provision through the Milk Marketing Board for the carrying out of publicity measures designed to increase the consumption of milk. No better publicity could have been given to that cause than the two days' debate in the House of Commons. I do not think that we can have too much publicity or propaganda, in the best sense of the word, to stimulate the consumption of liquid milk, needed not merely by children but also by adults; in fact I would say by the whole population. The hon. Lady the Member for Frome (Mrs. Tate) reminded us that liquid milk consumption in this country is considerably behind the consumption in certain other countries, notably the United States. I have figures here showing the disparity which exists between this country and the United States, France and Germany. The estimated income per head of population in the United States is £87 a year and the annual consumption per head of liquid milk is 310 pints. The estimated income per head of population in this country is £74 and our average consumption of liquid milk is 140 pints per year, or less than half that of the United States, although the average income is nearly the same in the two countries. Then look at Germany and France. The estimated average income per head of population is £52 and £56 a year respectively, but the consumption per head of liquid milk is considerably above that in this country, 180 and 187 pints a year. It comes down to this, that there is a great need in this country for further propaganda in order to induce the population to drink more milk.
Can the hon. Member give us the prices of milk?
In the United States the average retail price is 3.02d. per pint, that is higher than ours which is 2.88d. The price in Germany and France is a little lower, 2.34d. and 2.35d. per pint, respectively.
Can the hon. Member arrange for the publication of these figures?
They are already published in the World Economic Survey for 1934–35, by the League of Nations.
Can the hon. Member deal with the relative questions of wages and consuming power in the United States?
I have given the average income per head of population. It is evident that we are not yet a milk drinking nation; the milk habit is not yet sufficiently instilled into our people. We cannot say that we are yet milk minded. Let me give my own experience. When I am asked out to lunch or dinner and ask for a glass of milk, my host looks at me with anxiety and asks what is the matter with me. Probably my experience is shared by other hon. Members. In Sweden when in precisely similar circumstances I asked for a glass of milk nobody took the slightest notice or thought that I was doing anything remarkable. There are other figures which illustrate the point I am making. Due largely to the improvement in employment during the last four or five years the estimated purchasing power in this country has gone up by 10 per cent. During the same period the liquid milk price has gone up by about 5 per cent. but liquid milk consumption has only gone up by about 1 per cent. It has not risen in proportion to the admitted rise in the purchasing power of the people. Whatever the reason may be the extra purchasing power has not been applied so much to liquid milk as to milk products. As my right hon. Friend pointed out there has been a pronounced increase in the consumption in this country of butter and cheese and incidentally a pronounced decrease in the consumption of margarine. [HON. MEMBERS: "Not in the Army!"]
Various interesting points have been raised during the Debate. I understood the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillsborough (Mr. Alexander) to twit the Government with not spending more than the sum specified in the Bill. I cannot embark on a discussion as to whether more, and if so how much more, ought to be spent, because I should be out of order in doing so. But I could not help recollecting that during the Debate on the Sugar Industry Bill recently one of the right hon. Gentleman's colleagues informed us that in 1929–30, when the right hon. Gentleman occupied a responsible position in the Government his colleague had almost to sweat blood, as he said, to extract £5,000 from the Empire Marketing Board Funds to get a practical experiment started in the schools for the scheme which my right hon. Friend has elaborated to-day. I do not want to make a debating point of that, but I think that the right hon. Gentleman, when twitting us, ought to bear in mind the deplorable position with which his colleague was faced in 1929–30.
The right hon. Gentleman also referred to the proceedings before the committee of investigation and gave the House the advantage of certain extracts from the evidence which he gave before that committee. He will appreciate the fact that I am in the same position as my right hon. Friend and that I am not able to follow him on that point, the question being sub judice. May I make amends for an omission in my speech the other day. I am only too glad to give praise where praise is undoubtedly due, and to give credit to the societies with which the right hon. Gentleman is connected for the part they have played in helping us to found and operate the milk in schools scheme. I am sorry that I did not mention it before. As far as I am concerned, the right hon. Gentleman hid his light under a bushel. It is now unveiled and I pay tribute to it. The hon. Lady the Member for Frome and I think also the hon. Member for Barnstaple (Mr. Acland) referred to certain vaccine tests carried out by Dr. Spahlinger. I can only say that we are in close touch with the Government of Northern Ireland on the matter and it is hoped to make arrangements for tests on a considerably larger scale.
It was not Dr. Spahlinger's tests to which I referred.
I beg the hon. Gentleman's pardon, I thought he did refer to them. Some criticism was also made of the slowness of the experimenting in connection with the milk in schools scheme. We were asked why we did not get on with finding out why the children would not drink more milk and why we did not supply the milk hot. We have to be careful in proceedings of that kind. If a dairyman is asked to deliver the milk warm to the school and it has therefore to be heated, I am informed that it is likely to deteriorate in the process. I understand too that in the case of pasteurised milk it is by no means advisable to re-heat it. I only mention these points to show that it is not quite so easy when you find a flaw in a scheme of that kind to put it right. It does take a good deal of experimenting and trying before a correct solution is found. The hon. Gentleman was, I gather, antagonistic to the marketing boards and also to levy subsidy. When I looked at him for an alternative I got one, for we were advised to consult a publication issued in 1927 by the party to which the hon. Gentleman belongs. I have not got it clearly in my mind, but I doubt its value. The hon. Gentleman said something about Roscommon. I do not know what the electors there thought about it, but the electors of Ross and Cromarty did not think it of much value.
My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Midlothian and Peebles (Captain Ramsay) raised some interesting points in regard to Scotland. While he was speaking I discussed the matter with the Lord Advocate, and he will convey the point raised by my hon. and gallant Friend to the Secretary of State for Scotland who is at present absent on official duties.
We have had two day's debate on this matter, largely made up of discussions on nutrition and the value of milk, problems on which we are in a large measure of agreement with hon. Gentlemen who raised them. The fact still remains that this Bill is, and must in the circumstances be, a temporary Bill. It must be so in view of the fact that the Reorganisation Commission has not yet reported, and also in view of the fact that modifications cannot yet be made as a result of negotiations with supplying countries. Therefore, during the interval which must elapse between this policy and the long-term policy, it would be wise to experiment, as we are doing, to discover the difficulties that may stand in the way of our more permanent policy. The milk in schools scheme is admittedly experimental and must be for a considerable time. The figures I gave to the Committee the other day and the diversity of experience in various schools show that a great deal has still to be done to place the scheme on a uniform basis.
Hon. Gentlemen opposite have also got their long-term policy. It is, I gather, the nationalisation of the distributing industry. It is a very long-term policy, involving the purchase and control by the State of all the distributors engaged in this business—private companies, cooperative societies and small roundsmen. There are 20,000 to 30,000 wholesale and retail distributors in this business and 65,000 producer-retailers. I make that point because if the right hon. Gentleman were standing here in my place with his long-term policy, he would find it just as necessary to produce precisely the same Bill as we are producing, because he could not do anything else. The long-term policy of the Socialist party in that respect would depend on precisely the same factors. They would have to await the report of the Reorganisation Commission. They would be very ill-advised if they did not. They would also have to wait in order to clear up negotiations with the supplying countries. They would be very unwise if they launched their long-term policy before so doing. In point of fact we should have to wait much longer, because their policy of nationalising distribution is a far longer-term policy than any to which we are likely to be committed. It seems to me that all such policy needs a good deal of experiment and trying out.
One of the reasons for the success of the British people in political affairs is that we distrust far-reaching projects of which we have had no actual previous experience, and adequate trying out. We do not build houses of cards just to knock them down, and in this case of the milk industry we have built on foundations such as those laid by the National Milk Publicity Council, assisted by my right hon. Friend, just as we built our insurance system on the
friendly societies, and our education system on the work of the Churches. I say again that if the right hon. Gentleman and his Friends were in office to-day they would do precisely the same thing as we are doing. They would have to pass this Bill, or let the industry crash and destroy the basis for any long-term policy which they might choose to apply. For that reason it seems to me that hon. Members opposite would be justified in supporting the Bill. By doing so they would in no way postpone the realisation of their long-term distribution policy, whatever it may be, and whilst supporting this Bill they would be supporting the fabric of this industry, which must be a condition precedent to any policy for the extension of milk consumption.
10.42 p.m.
I have a cutting headed "A flaw in the Act" from an agricultural journal in Scotland according to which, Mr. Wilson, Vice-President of the Scottish Milk Marketing Board, made a statement to a conference that he had been exploring the possibilities of supplying milk at a specially low price to hospitals and infirmaries but had been barred by the terms of the Act. He said that he could supply milk to children in schools but not to sick children in a nursing home. If that exploration has been conducted I should like to know whether the Government knew of it and took part in it, to ascertain whether the Act could be altered in order to allow what the board seems to desire to be done.
Perhaps the hon. Member will let me have the particulars of the case, and I will have them carefully looked into and will communicate the result to him.
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
The House divided: Ayes, 201; Noes, 121.
Division No. 49.] AYES. [10.45 p.m. Albery, I. J. Baxter, A. Beverley Boyce, H. Leslie Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'kn'hd) Beauchamp, Sir B. C. Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B. Anderson, Sir A. Garrett (C. of Ldn.) Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h) Braithwaite, Major A. N. Apsley, Lord Beit, Sir A. L. Brass, Sir W. Aske, Sir R. W. Bernays, R. H. Briscoe, Capt. R. G. Assheton, R. Blinded, Sir J. Brocklebank, C. E. R. Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Bossom, A. C. Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury) Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet) Boulton, W. W. Bull, B. B. Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Bower, Comdr. R. T. Campbell, Sir E. T. Cartland, J. R. H. Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J. Rayner, Major R. H. Cary, R. A. Hopkin, D. Reed, A. C. (Exeter) Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.) Howitt, Dr. A. B. Remer, J. R. Channon, H. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.) Rickards, G. W. (Skipton) Chapman, A. (Rutherglen) Hulbert, N. J. Ropner, Colonel L. Chorlton, A. E. L. Hunter, T. Ross, Major Sir R. D. (L'derry) Colfox, Major W. P. Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir T. W. H. Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge) Cook, T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.) Jackson, Sir H. Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir E. A. Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh.W.) Jarvis, Sir J. J. Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury) Courtauld, Major J. S. Joel, D. J. B. Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen) Cradclock. Sir R. H. Keeling, E. H. Salmon, Sir I. Craven-Ellis, W. Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.) Salt, E. W. Croft, Brig.-Gen. Sir H. Page Knox, Major-General Sir A. W. F. Samuel, M. R. A. (Putney) Crooke, J. S. Lamb, Sir J. Q. Scott, Lord William Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C. Latham, Sir P. Shakespeare, G. H. Crowder, J. F. E. Leckie, J. A. Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree) Cruddas, Col. B. Lees-Jones, J. Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar) Davidson, Rt. Hon. Sir J. C. C. Levy, T. Simmonds, O E. Davies, Major G. F. (Yeovil) Lewis, O. Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A. De Chair, S. S. Llddall, W. S. Smiles, Lieut.-Colonel Sir W. D. Denman, Hon. R. D. Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J. Smith, L. W. (Hallam) Denville, Alfred Lloyd, G. W. Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen) Dorman-Smith, Major R. H. Loftus, P. C. Somervell, Sir D. B. (Crewe) Duckworth, G. A. V. (Salop) Lumley, Capt. L. R. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side) Mabane, W. (Huddersfield) Southby, Comdr. A. R. J. Dugdale, Major T. L. MacAndrew, Lt.-Col. Sir c. G. Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L. Duggan, H. J. MacDonald, Rt. Hn. J. R. (Scot. U.) Spens, W. P. Eales, J. F. MacDonald, Ht. Hon M. (Ross) Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Fylde) Eckersley, P. T. McEwen, Capt. H. J. F. Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'I'd) Edmondson, Major Sir J. McKie, J. H. Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.) Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E. Margesson, Capt. Bt. Hon. H. D. R. Stourton, Hon. J. J. Elliston, G. S. Maxwell, S. A. Strickland, Captain W. F. Elmley, Viscount Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J. Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Emrys-Evans, P. V. Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth) Sutcliffe, H. Entwistle, C. F. Mills, Sir F. (Leyton, E.) Tasker, Sir R.I. Errington, E. Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest) Tate, Mavis C. Everard, W. L. Mitcheson, Sir G. G. Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.) Findlay, Sir E. Moreing, A. C. Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby) Fraser, Capt. Sir I. Morris, J. P. (Salford, N.) Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford) Fremantle, Sir F. E. Morris-Jones. Dr. J. H. Thomson, Sir J. D. W. Fyfe, D. P. M. Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.) Titchfield, Marquess of Ganzoni, Sir J. Munro, P. M. Tryon, Major Rt. Hon. G. C. Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. fir J. Nail, Sir J. Turton, R. H. Goodman Col. A. W. Neven-Spence, Maj. B. H. Wakefield, W. W. Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral) Nicolson, Hon. H. G. Walker-Smith, Sir J. Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester) Orr-Ewing, I. L. Wallace, Captain Euan Gridley, Sir A. B. Palmer, "G. E. H. Warrender, Sir V. Grimston, R. V. Patrick, C. M. Waterhouse, Captain C. Guest,Maj. Hon. O.(C'mb'rwII,N.W.) Peat, C. U. Wedderburn, H. J. S. Gunston, Capt. D. W. Perkins, W. R. D. Wells, S. R. Guy, J. C. M. Peters, Dr. S. J. Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R. Hamilton, Sir G. C. Petherick, M. Williams, H. G. (Croydon. S.) Hannon, Sir P. J. H. Pilkington, R. Windsor-dive. Lieut.-Colonel G. Harbord, A. Plugge, L. F. Wise, A. R. Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton) Ponsonby, Col. C. E. Womersley, Sir W. J. Heilgers, Captain F. F. A. Pownall, Sir A. Assheton Young, A. S. L. (Partick) Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth) Ramsay, Captain A. H. M. Hills, Major Rt. Hon. J. W. (Ripon) Ramsbotham, H. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Holmes, J. S. Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin) Sir George Penny and Lieut.- Colonel Sir A. Lambert Ward.
NOES. Acland, R. T. D. (Barnstaple) Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton) Holland, A. Adamson, W. M. Davies, S. O. (Merthyr) Hollins, A. Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.) Day, H. Jagger, J. Amman, C. G. Dobbie, W. Jenkins, A. (Pontypool) Anderson, F. (Whitehaven) Ede, J. C. Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath) Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R. Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.) John, W. Banfield, J. W. Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty) Jones, A. C. (Shipley) Barnes, A. J. Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H. Kelly, W. T. Barr, J. Frankel, D. Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T. Batey, J. Gallacher, W. Lawson, J. J. Bellenger, F. Gardner, B. W. Leach, W. Benson, G. Garro-Jones, G. M. Lee, F. Bevan, A. Green, W. H. (Deptford) Leonard, W. Brown, C. (Mansfield) Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. Leslie, J. R. Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (S. Ayrshire) Grenfell, D. R. Logan, D. G. Burke, W. A. Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.) Lunn, W. Cape, T. Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth) McEntee, V. La T. Cluse, W. S. Hall, G. H. (Aberdare) McGhee, H. G. Cocks, F. S. Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) MacLaren, A. Cripps, Hon. Sir Stafford Hardie, G. D. Maclean, N. Daggar, G. Harris, Sir P. A. MacMillan, M. (Western Isles) Dalton, H. Henderson, A. (Kingswinford) MacNeill, Weir, L. Davies, D. L. (Pontypridd) Henderson, J. (Ardwick) Mainwaring, W. H. Marklew, E. Rathbone, Eleanor (English Univ's.) Thurtle, E. Marshall, F. Richards, R. (Wrexham) Tinker, J. J. Mathers, G. Riley, B. Viant, S. P. Messer, F. Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Brom.) Walkden, A. G. Milner, Major J. Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens) Walker, J. Montague, F. Rowson, G. Watkins, F. C. Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Ha'kn'y, S.) Sexton, T. M. Watson, W. McL. Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Shinwell, E. Westwood, J. Naylor, T. E. Short, A. Wilkinson, Ellen Oliver, G. H. Silverman, S. S. Williams, E. J. (Ogmore) Paling, W. Simpson, F. B. Williams, T. (Don Valley) Parker, H. J. H. Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe) Wilson, C. H. (Attercliffe) Parkinson, J. A. Smith, E. (Stoke) Windsor, W. (Hull, C.) Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Smith, T. (Normanton) Woods, G. S. (Finsbury) Potts, J. Sorensen, R. W. Young, Sir R. (Newton) Price, M. P. Stephen, C. Pritt, D. N. Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Quibell, J. D. Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth) Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Charleton.
Bill read a Second time.
Bill committed to a Committee of the Whole House, for Monday next.— [ Captain Margesson. ]
Unemployment Assistance (Temporary Provisions) (Extension) Bill
Order for Consideration of Lords Amendments read.
Motion made, and Question, "That the Lords Amendments be now considered," put, and agreed to.
Lords Amendments considered accordingly.
CLAUSE 2.—(Short Title, Citation and Extent.)
Lords Amendment: In page 2, line 6, leave out from "and" to "may" and insert
"this Act and the Unemployment Assistance Acts, 1934 and 1935."
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."— [ Mr. Shakespeare. ]
May I ask where the Minister who is responsible for this Bill is? It is quite true that these Amendments are formal and that there is no material alteration, but may we ask where the Minister is?
The Minister is here. The Amendment is a purely drafting Amendment.
I am very much obliged to the hon. Gentleman.
Question put, and agreed to.
Subsequent Lords Amendment agreed to.
Pensions (Governors of Dominions, Etc.) Bill
Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [17th February], "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
Question again proposed.
10.55 p.m.
The object of this Bill, as I explained on the Financial Resolution, is to remove certain anomalies that now exist. If it were deemed necessary to appoint a civil servant to the position of a governor at the present time, notwithstanding all his long experience and qualifications, unless he served for 10 years the benefit of his long experience as a civil servant would be lost. We feel that that is an unfair position, and is preventing people from accepting these posts, for which they would be fitted in every way. A case which illustrates the general principle is that of the Governor-General of the Sudan. It has been found necessary to appoint to that very distinguished post people who have served for many years in the Colonial Service, and again, under the present Act, they were deprived of their right to pensions. The object of the Bill is to remove these anomalies; no other principle is involved.
What are the pensions paid in these cases?
Practically speaking they vary in every colony.
Could we have some of the figures?
I could not give the exact figures, but I think there are some of £550, some of £750, and some even go up to £1,000. But surely that principle is not involved in this Bill. It does not ask that anyone's pension should be increased, but merely that, if there is appointed to one of these posts a civil servant with 20 or 30 years' experience, he should not be expected, with that experience, to take such a position and not have the benefit of his long service.
10.57 p.m.
This question was raised on the Money Resolution, and we did not oppose it. Although I am not in love with the policy of the Government, and would like better to vote against them than almost any Member of the House, I do not oppose this Bill. So far as I know, we have never objected to giving pensions to civil servants for service rendered to the State. We have criticised the favour that is given to some people as compared with others; we have often stated our opinions with regard to men who were getting large pensions which did not compare with those of other men who gave equally good service but were only getting low pensions. On that matter we have never hesitated to give our support to the idea of appreciation of services rendered to the State by civil servants.
I should have liked the Bill to be much wider than it is, so that we could have discussed the whole question of pensions for all workers, which I think is a matter of urgency. But, as I understand the Haw is it has been, and would be if this Bill were not passed, a man may hold a position in the Colonial Service, without being a Governor, and be better off as regards the amount of his pension than if he accepted a position as Governor. He might be a Colonial Secretary and remain a Colonial Secretary with a better pension at the end of his service than if he had become a Governor.
The Bill will alter that state of affairs. We cannot give our support to the idea that only very old men or very rich men should take the position of Governors, and the Bill will to some extent remedy that position. At present there are not many of these people, the amount involved is not large, and I cannot agree that the only people who are to be entitled to become Governors of Dominions or Colonies should be men who have private means. There is no doubt that many men in these positions have had to have private means in order to maintain them. I agree that the Bill removes an anomaly of that sort, and for that reason I am giving my support to it. It is limited to persons who are permanently employed in the Civil Service. They cannot become governors unless they have had ten years in the Civil Service, and they must have been governors for not less than three years before they will be entitled to a pension. While I wish that this Bill applied to all men and women who are rendering service to the State for the welfare of the country, at the moment I cannot but support, or agree not to oppose, a Bill of this kind, which shows its appreciation of services rendered to the State by admirable servants of the State in the Civil Service.
11.1 p.m.
I do not propose to ask the House to divide on this Bill, but I want to support the criticism that has been made from the benches above the Gangway. I notice that in explaining the Bill the Secretary of State for the Colonies emphasised that what he wanted to explain was the principle involved. He said that there are certain anomalies in connection with the pension scheme so far as Colonial Governors are concerned, and when he was questioned as to the limits of the income in respect of them, he had practically no information to offer. I think that the Secretary of State for the Colonies might have taken the precaution of having some figures with him. To come and ask the House to upset the principle without giving any idea as to the amount of the incomes of the people in question is not playing the game.
When it is a matter of the unemployed, you have got to think about the incomes and the need for emphasising the means test, but when it comes to people who are in a relatively good position and enjoying a good income, the important principle is that of removing anomalies. The principle of a means test and whether the people concerned really need the money seems to fall into the background altogether. I am interested in the enthusiasm shown by the Secretary of State for the Colonies for correcting this anomaly, because I am very much concerned about various other anomalies. I would like to have an assurance from the Secretary of State that, in the event of the House supporting this Bill for the correction of anomalies in connection with those in the Colonial service, he will seek in the Cabinet to carry this principle further in order that it shall apply with regard to the various pensions schemes for which the House is responsible. If it is a case of correcting anomalies, let the Government make a thorough-going business of it and correct the anomalies that exist with regard to all the pensions schemes for which the House is responsible.
I would like to give an illustration. The Secretary of State referred to the case of a civil servant who, after 25 years' service, is appointed as a Governor and may then lose his pension. I would ask the House to consider that alongside what happens under the National Health Insurance scheme. I do not want to develop this, but simply to give it as an illustration. Take the case of a man who has been insured under the National Health Insurance scheme for 21 years and who obtains an appointment which removes him from that scheme. He may become a voluntary contributor in regard to maintaining his pension rights, but there is nothing about voluntary contributions in this connection. What is good for Colonial Governors ought to be given in this connection. There are many who obtain employment and lose their pension rights. They do not become voluntary contributors, and perhaps in a year or two they die and their widows have to bear the brunt of it. One week's contribution may have been responsible for creating that anomaly. I should like an assurance from the Colonial Secretary that the Government will seriously consider the whole pension scheme and the cruel injustices that are taking place to-day in regard to the working of the scheme. That is all I desire to say. I simply wanted to put one case against the other in order to show that there is this difference of treatment, and to insist that the Government shall treat poor pensioners as well as they are going to treat rich pensioners.
11.8 p.m.
I was surprised to hear the reply of the Colonial Secretary, when he said that the pensions were just a matter of £200, £300 or £500. This Bill is to amend the Pensions Acts of 1911 and 1929. If the right hon. Gentleman will read the Pensions Act of 1929 he will find the figure of £2,000 mentioned. He will find a figure of £l,300 a year mentioned. He will find also in the Act of 1929 that the maximum yearly amount was increased by £700. Those of us who were here at that time realised that the Conservative Government, knowing that it was going out of business, rushed this Bill through. It is not simply a question of the anomaly that has been mentioned by the last speaker. This Bill gives pensions after three years service as a Colonial Governor. Reference was made by the Colonial Secretary to 10 and 25 years in the Civil Service. There is no mention of 25 years in this Bill or in the Acts of 1911 and 1929. The pension does not even start at the age of 60. Only 10 years service is mentioned. The pension may be given long before 60.
When we suggest the giving of pensions at the age of 60 for the people engaged in industrial life, hon. Members opposite are opposed to it, but when it is a case of a Governor, three years service as a Governor and 10 years in the Civil Service, the pension is given, and it is calculated at the rate of £5 for each month's service. There are conditions laid down that these people shall not be denied the pension. I have never seen any Measure so prepared as to ensure that these people should not in any circumstances have the slightest chance of losing their pension as one finds in the two Acts of 1911 and 1929, which this Bill seeks to amend. This Measure has to be considered as a retrospective one. It deals not only with the 1st January this year but with a more remote date, and a period prior even to that may be considered.
I wonder if the Government have at last made up their minds that the people of this country are entitled to be considered for their service, not only ahead of the time when a Bill is discussed, but also for the period prior to the moment when the Bill is discussed. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will explain to us what is meant by Sub-section (3) of Clause 1, which seems to make sure that the Governor-General of the Anglo-Egyptian Sudan will receive this pension even if all his service was completed before the 1st January of this year. If that is to be passed, we had better have it included for certain other people who are not in the same position as salary takers. In Clause 2 it says that service
11.12 p.m.
I beg to move, "That the Debate be now adjourned."
I am sorry this matter has been brought on at this late hour, because it lends colour to the suggestion that there is something to hide. The other night we objected to its being brought on and it was put back, and I understood from the Prime Minister to-day that not much time would be taken after 11 if there was any objection to it. However, the man in charge thought it well to get it through quickly. Imagine the Colonial Secretary pleading ignorance when asked about some of the figures. I know him too well on these matters. He could have told us every penny that these men are getting. The point to my mind is that there is something here that it is not wanted shall be known by the public. It will be difficult for the Government to make a case for pensions of this kind, when at the same time we are pointing out hard cases and have to tell our people that it is almost impossible to get anything from them, while this Bill provides for £500 to £1,500 a year for some people. I object to this, because I think it is very unfair
that we should be called upon to grant this large amount of money.
I have in my possession two letters giving instances in this country of how our men are being treated. One is from an Army Reserve man, and the money that he is drawing is taken into consideration under the means test. He has given at least 12 years' service to the State, and one would have thought that his pension would have been clear of anything else, but it has to be brought under review when he comes under the means test. Will this happen, I wonder, to these gentlemen who are getting these big sums? They will never be troubled with the means test. I have also in my possession a letter from a man who tells me that his wife is 11 years younger than himself. He is 71 years of age, and she is 60. They have been married 40 years, and he is getting 10s. a week for himself and his wife. She cannot get it till she is at least 65. Is that not an anomaly? This Bill has been brought in to remove anomalies. Whatever anomaly is being removed, surely there are other anomalies among the poorer classes that ought to be remedied. When we put questions down we can get no satisfaction. The anomalies are admitted but they cannot be dealt with. The great people, however, can easily have their anomalies remedied by their friends on the Government benches. To my mind this is a scandal of the very worst kind. I do not think it can be justified from any point of view. I move the Adjournment of the Debate so that we can take it in the early part of the day and discuss it fully and be given the fullest information and know what we are voting upon.
Question put, "That the Debate be now adjourned."
The House divided: Ayes, 48; Noes, 147.
Division No. 50.] AYES. [11.17 p.m. Banfield, J. W. Henderson, A. (Kingswinford) Pritt, D. N. Barr, J Holland, A. Rowson, G. Batey, J. Holllns, A. Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen) Bellenger, F. Jagger, J. Sexton, T. M. Benson, G. Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath) Silverman, S. S. Bevan, A. Jones, A. C. (Shipley) Smith, T. (Normanton) Brown, C. (Mansfield) Kelly, W. T. Stephen, C. Burke, W. A. Logan, D. G. Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth) Cocks, F. S. MacMillan, M. (Western Isles) Walkden, A. G. Daggar, G. Marklew, E. Westwood, J. Davies, D. L. (Pontypridd) Marshall, F. Williams, E. J. (Ogmore) Davies, S. O. (Merthyr) Maxton, J. Windsor, W. (Hull, C.) Ede, J. C. Milner, Major J. Woods, G. S. (Finsbury) Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.) Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Young, Sir R. (Newton) Green, W. H. (Deptford) Oliver, G. H. Grenfell, D. R. Parker, H. J. H. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Hardle, G. D. Potts, J. Mr. Tinker and Mr. Ellis Smith.
NOES. Acland, R. T. D. (Barnstaple) Fremantle, Sir F. E. Penny, Sir G. Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.) Fyfe, D. P. M. Perkins, W. R. D. Albery, I. J. Goodman, Col. A. W. Peters, Dr. S. J. Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'kn'hd) Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral) Petherick, M. Anderson, Sir A. Garrett (C. of Ldn.) Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester) Pilkington, R. Apsley, Lord Gridley, Sir A. B. Ponsonby, Col. C. E. Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet) Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.) Ramsay, Captain A. H. M. Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Grimston, R. V. Ramsbotham, H. Baxter, A. Beverley Guest,Maj. Hon. O.(C'mb'rw'll,N.W.) Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin) Beauchamp, Sir B. C. Gunston, Capt. D. W. Rayner, Major R. H. Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h) Guy, J. C. M. Reed, A. C. (Exeter) Bernays, R. H. Hacking, Rt. Hon. D. H. Remer, J. R. Blindell, Sir J Hamilton, Sir G. C. Rickards, G. W. (Skipton) Bossom, A. C. Hannon, Sir P. J. H. Ropner, Colonel L. Boulton, W. W. Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton) Ross, Major Sir R. D. (L'derry) Bower, Comdr. R. T. Heilgers, Captain F. F. A. Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge) Boyce, H. Lesile Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth) Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen) Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B. Holmes, J. S. Salmon, Sir I. Braithwaite, Major A. N. Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J. Salt, E. W. Brocklebank, C. E. R. Horsbrugh, Florence Samuel, M. R. A. (Putney) Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury) Howitt, Dr. A. B. Scott, Lord William Bull, B. B. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.) Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree) Campbell, Sir E. T. Hunter, T. Simmonds, O. E, Cartland, J. R. H. Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir T. W. H. Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A. Cary, R. A. Joel, D. J. B. Smiles, Lieut.-Colonel Sir W. D. Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.) Keeling, E. H. Smith, L. W. (Hallam) Channon, H. Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.) Southby, Comdr. A. R. J. Chapman, A. (Rutherglen) Lamb, Sir J. Q. Spens, W. P. Courtauld, Major J. S. Latham, Sir P. Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.) Craven-Ellis, W. Leckie, J. A. Strickland, Captain W. F. Crooke, J. S. Lees-Jones, J. Sutcliffe, H. Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C. Liddall, W. S. Tate, Mavis C. Crowder, J. F. E. Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J. Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby) Cruddas, Col. B. Lloyd, G. W. Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford) Davidson, Rt. Hon. Sir J. C. C. Lumley, Capt. L. R. Thomson, Sir J. D. W. Davies, Major G. F. (Yeovil) Mabane, W. (Huddersfield) Titchfleld, Marquess of Dorman-Smith, Major R. H. McKie, J. H. Wakefield, W. W. Duckworth, G. A. V. (Salop) Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. Wallace, Captain Eunn Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side) Maxwell, S. A. Ward, Irene (Wallsend) Duggan, H. J. Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J. Warrender, Sir V. Eales, J. F. Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth) Waterhouse, Captain C. Eckersley, P. T. Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest) Wedderburn, H. J. S. Elliston, G. S. Mitcheson, Sir G. G. Wells, S. R. Eimley, Viscount Moreing, A. C. Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R. Emrys-Evans, P. V. Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.) Entwistle, C. F. Munro. P. M. Wise, A. R. Errington, E. Neven-Spence, Maj. B. H. Womersley, Sir W. J. Everard, W. L. Nicolson, Hon. H. G. Findlay, Sir E. Orr-Ewing, I. L. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Fraser, Capt. Sir I. Palmer, G. E. H. Mr. James Stuart and Lieut.-Colonel Sir A. Lambert Ward.
Question again proposed, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
11.25 p.m.
In my view anyone who is prepared to support this Bill is out of touch with the feeling in the country with regard to pensions. The object of the Measure is to remove certain anomalies affecting those people who are dealt with by the Bill. I find that in 1934 the claims of 11,880 widows who applied for widows' pensions were rejected, and that in 1935 11,450 appeals for widows' pensions were refused. There are anomalies in National Health Insurance. May I, for a moment, deal with one or two? Men, as good as any in this House, have been forced through unemployment to go into small businesses like coal carrying, the selling of sweets, and because they have been unable to con- tinue as voluntary contributors the application of their widows for pensions after they have died has been rejected. Those who come from industrial districts and are in touch with these cases know of these anomalies and, therefore, are not prepared to support a Bill to remove anomalies when dealing with such people until the Government are prepared to treat these poor people in the same way. Take the case of ex-soldiers. Those who were in touch with the rank and file during the War know that ex-soldiers have suffered disabilities of all description. I know men who suffer from rheumatism—
I know a man who suffers from rheumatism, too.
Judging by the hon. Member's physical appearance he has never suffered in that way. When ex- soldiers have applied for pensions they have had to go before medical boards, who look for the slightest excuse in order to deprive them of their pensions. If they die later on from cancer or any other cause and the doctor's certificate is not in writing to the effect that the death arose out of war service, the widows are not entitled to a pension. Knowing that these anomalies exist and the feeling there is in the country with regard to them, if no one else had opposed the Bill I should still oppose it and, therefore, I am pleased that the Labour Party has taken up the attitude it has adopted towards the Bill.
11.30 p.m.
This Bill seeks to amend the 1929 Act and I am sure that the Secretary of State for Colonies has a vivid recollection of the debate on this subject in 1929. He then sat on these Benches, but, on that occasion, he supported a Tory Government. He was already, at that time, making his way fast to the other side, where he now sits.
But the whole party went with me.
No.
So far from the whole party going with the right hon. Gentleman, I could remind him, if we were talking privately, of something that he told me about that Measure. We had a very keen debate on that occasion and the back-bench members of this party felt very strongly on the matter. We thought, when the Division was taken on that occasion, that we had settled the question, but evidently it is not settled yet. We then fixed the number of years at ten. The question of an increase in the pensions also played a great part in that previous Debate. The right hon. Gentleman ought to have been prepared to tell the House to-night just what those pensions are. If he told the House what those pensions are, I venture to say there would have been a larger Vote in favour of adjourning the Debate, and that there would be a larger Vote against the Second Reading of the Bill.
To-night we find that the right hon. Gentleman wants the House to reduce the number of years from ten to three. We make our protest as emphatically as we can against this Bill. We believe that the House would not be justified in voting these great pensions upon such a small number of years of service as is proposed in the Bill, as long as so many of our people cannot get pensions and are in the position in which we see them to-day. To-night I am glad that we have had the opportunity, late as it is, to make our protest against the Bill, and I hope that we shall not be satisfied with the vote already recorded but that our objection to the Bill itself will be carried into the Division Lobby.
11.34 p.m.
I gather that there is a disposition in certain quarters to treat this matter as if it ought not to be discussed at this hour. My hon. Friends and I would have preferred to have discussed it at a more convenient hour, but this is the time provided by the Government for it, and we have to make the best of a bad business. The Prime Minister, announcing future business to-day, told us of the pressure which was upon him, which means that we must work overtime to get through the programme. We accept the conditions. I am interested in this Measure because, like the hon. Member for Spennymoor (Mr. Batey), I took part in the discussion on the 1929 Bill. I understand that the appeal made for it by the Colonial Secretary is made on behalf of the Civil Service. In 1929 we heard about the lack of political appointments, and I want to know if there is to be a departure from that principle now. The last two important governerships were filled by Members of this House, and not by members of the Civil Service—appointments to which I take no exception whatever. I believe in political appointments to these positions rather than appointments from the Civil Service. The appointments of Commander Cochrane and Lord Erskine are both appointments of men who, I think, are worthy of holding positions of that sort, on the assumption that the general control of the British Empire is to be on a Conservative basis.
We have to assume that will not always be the case, and that these appointments will be in the hands of Members who have another political point of view. We had one such appointment in the period of the first Labour Government in the case of Sir James O'Grady, who, it will be admitted in the Colonial Office and in every quarter, discharged his high office with great efficiency and distinction, and was perhaps one of the most popular Governors who was ever in Tasmania. The Bill would make no provision for such a man being pensioned out. The average Labour Member, appointed to such a position, would not have personal resources and would not have a Civil Service record. Before these pensions are payable, however, there has to be a combination of service as Governor-General and service as civil servant, unless a person is able to have a very extended period of service as a Governor-General. I suggest that this Bill does not meet the case of political appointments at all. I do not believe that Governor-Generalships should be Civil Service appointments. They are political appointments, and should be made as such. The right hon. Gentleman now brings forward a scheme, not as a temporary arrangement as that of last year was, but as a permanent settlement of the question. It ought to provide fairly and squarely for all the contingencies that may arise.
It may be possible to adjust these points in Committee. I do not know the intentions of the Government as to the Committee stage. If the pressure of time is so great as to deny opportunity for adequate consideration on Second Reading I hope the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury will make arrangements for the Bill to go to a Committee where it may be examined in detail with the intention of producing a Measure that is fair and covers the whole situation, even though that should mean the withdrawal of this Bill and the introduction of another Financial Resolution and another Bill. I suggest that we ought to have from the Government a statement of their intentions.
11.41 p.m.
I should not have risen but for the challenge which the Colonial Secretary threw out to my hon. Friend the Member for Spennymoor (Mr. Batey) with regard to the proceedings on the Bill of 1929. It is true, as the right hon. Gentleman said, that there was no division on that occasion, but it is only fair to my hon. Friends the Members for Rochdale (Mr. Kelly) and Spennymoor to say that they both opposed the Bill on the same grounds as they put forward to-night and that they had the support of the right hon. Gentleman in doing so. He said then:
"There are some of my friends who feel, and quite rightly so, that they do not oppose the principle of the Bill merely because it tries to rectify a wrong, but because they say and I cannot help associating myself with many of them in this respect, 'Whilst you are rectifying these anomalies, whilst you are ruling with these abuses, whilst you are dealing with people in positions of high responsibility, why not also tackle the abuses at the lower end of the scale.'"
The right hon. Gentleman went on:
"That is a sentiment which I understand and appreciate, and that is a position which I should like to see rectified."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 1st March, 1929; col. 2414, Vol. 225.]
That was the lead he gave to this side of the House on that occasion. But there was another difference between that Debate and this. The Measure then was introduced by the hon. Member who is now the First Commissioner of Works, and he took the trouble to be properly briefed, and so was able to answer the questions put to him. The difference tonight is that when quite reasonable questions were asked by my hon. Friend, the hon. Member for Leigh (Mr. Tinker) we got only a sketchy series of replies in auction form, going up by easy stages, and according to the statement of the hon. Member for Rochdale, who had taken the trouble to inform himself on the matter, even then the right hon. Gentleman did not reach the reserve price. We know that the right hon. Gentleman feels that he has not changed, that it is only we who have changed, and therefore I have no doubt the quotation from his speech 6½ years ago still expresses his sentiments. He is now in a better position to implement them, and we can only assume that he is using his great persuasive powers in the Government to do so, but he has not said so.
11.44 p.m.
I do not think anyone could take exception to any statement made in the Debate. Many speakers have said what I said on the last occasion, and it is equally true to point out that in the interval there was a Government of another political complexion and that they found it just as difficult as I do now to implement the same words. My hon. Friend felt aggrieved because I did not produce, figures, and I apologise, but the explanation is this: If there had been anything in the Bill increasing the pension of anyone I should have felt it my duty to explain the existing pensions and give reasons for any increase. The reason I did not feel it necessary to give particular figures of any particular pension was, as I explained, that the Bill did not increase a pension of any kind. I hope my hon. Friend will accept that explanation.
Did it not strike the right hon. Gentleman that when this Bill was discussed, questions of this kind would be asked, and is it not his duty to be ready on all such points?
I did assume that questions, relevant and irrelevant, would be asked, and I did not take the trouble to look up material for those that would be irrelevant. I tell my hon. Friend quite fairly, and I hope he will accept it, that had I assumed that his questions would be asked I should not have hesitated to get the figures. I have ascertained that the figure I gave was approximately a figure that could be justified in relation to all Governors.
The other point was that in the Committee stage, as my hon. Friend pointed out, there ought to be opportunity to raise particular points and to move Amendments. Obviously at this time of night I am not prepared to take any of the points raised. When the Committee stage is reached, it will be a matter for negotiation in the usual way.
Is it not a fact that persons who would not be entitled to pensions, if the Bill were not passed, will get pensions if the Bill be passed?
No. It is a fact that people who are in the Civil Service now and would be qualified for and entitled to these positions as Governors, would not take them because they would be penalised under the existing Act. This Bill is to remove that penalty.
It is clear that if they had taken the position they would not get pensions under the present Act but would under this new Measure?
It is true that they would not carry, with the position of Governor, anything better than the pen- sionable rights of their position as Civil Servants.
Is not this an increase of pensions for certain persons?
11.48 p.m.
If it is true, as has now been elicited, that this Bill means an increase in the charge on the public funds, for the right hon. Gentleman not to have furnished himself with information to place before the House as to the amount of the additional charge is not treating the House properly.
May I point out that the hon. Gentleman is not justified in his statements? Perhaps he will remember that there was a Financial Resolution and that a White Paper was published.
If the Financial Resolution and the White Paper provide the House of Commons with the information which is asked for, why is the right hon. Gentleman not in a position to put it before the House? This is the Second Reading of the Bill, and the right hon. Gentleman knows very well that the White Paper and the Financial Resolution did not contain the information which is now asked for. He has already admitted that there are certain persons who, at the moment, would be entitled to receive certain pensions. He admits that the Bill will amend the law so as to make it possible for those persons to receive pensions and become Governors, and yet he treats the House of Commons so frivolously that he does not furnish it with information as to what the additional charge is.
I submit that that is not the way in which the House should be treated. This is the usual sort of abuse of Government majorities. The House of Commons is always jealous of its role as guardian of the public funds. We ought not to part with public money in this way. It has been regrettable that Government supporters are so little conscious of their public duties that they now listen to the most inadequate and frivolous speeches from the Government front Bench and make no attempt to elicit information on the matter on which they are voting. My hon. Friends have made a good case, and the Government should put the information before the House or withdraw the Bill and send down a Min- ister who would be able to furnish the information. It is not the first time that the right hon. Gentleman has acted in this way. Repeatedly we have seen him come to the House and make speeches that are utterly inadequate because he is certain that there is a sufficient number of sheep behind him who will always follow the bell wether who sits beside him.
11.51 p.m.
The reason so many of us are opposing this Bill is that we are conscious of the bitter feeling in the country against the anomalies that exist in the Pensions Acts. If we allow this Bill to go through people will have the right to say that we were prepared to remove
the anomalies for certain people, better off than themselves, and that we allowed the Government to put us off by saying that they could do nothing in respect of other anomalies. I hope hon. Members on these benches will go into the Lobby against this Bill as a protest against the injustices so rife in the country in connection with Widow's and Old Age Pensions. If this Bill went through without protest our Party would be doing less than its duty to those who sent us here.
Question put, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
The House divided: Ayes, 139; Noes, 32.
Division No. 51.] AYES. [11.54 p.m. Acland, Rt. Hon. Sir F. Dyke Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral) Perkins, W. R. D. Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.) Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester) Petherick, M. Albery, I. J. Gridley, Sir A. B. Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'kn'hd) Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.) Pilkington, R. Anderson, Sir A. Garrett (C. of Ldn.) Grimston, R. V. Ponsonby, Col. C. E. Apsley, Lord Guest,Maj. Hon. O.(C'mb'rw'll,N.W.) Ramsay, Captain A. H. M. Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet) Gunston, Capt. D. W. Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin) Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Guy, J. C. M. Reed, A. C. (Exeter) Baxter, A. Beverley Hacking, Rt. Hon. D. H. Remer, J. R. Beauchamp, Sir B. C. Hamilton, Sir G. C. Rickards, G. W. (Skipton) Beaumont, Hon. B. E. B. (Portsm'h) Hannon, Sir P. J. H. Ropner, Colonel L. Bernays, R. H. Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton) Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge) Blindell, Sir J. Heilgers, Captain F. F. A. Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir E. A. Bossom, A. C Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth) Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen) Boulton, W. W. Holmes, J. S. Salmon, Sir I. Bower, Comdr. R. T. Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J. Salt, E. W. Boyce, H. Leslie Horsbrugh, Florence Samuel, M. R. A. (Putney) Brocklebank, C. E. R. Howitt, Dr. A. B. Scott, Lord William Bull, B. B. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.) Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree) Campbell, Sir E. T. Hunter, T. Simmonds, O. E. Cartland, J. R. H. Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir T. W. H. Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A. Cary, R. A. Joel, D. J. B. Smiles, Lieut.-Colonel Sir W. D. Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.) Keeling, E. H. Smith, L. W. (Hallam) Channon, H. Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.) Southby, Comdr. A. R. J. Chapman, A. (Rutherglen) Lamb, Sir J. Q. Spens, W. P. Craven-Ellis, W. Latham, Sir P. Strickland, Captain W. F. Crooke, J. S. Leckie, J. A. Sutcliffe, H. Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C. Lees-Jones, J. Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby) Crowder, J. F. E. Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L. Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford) Cruddas, Col. B. Liddall, W. S. Thomson, Sir J. D. W. Dalton, H. Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J. Titchfield, Marquess of Davies, Major G. F. (Yeovil) Lloyd, G. W. Wallace, Captain Euan Dorman-Smith, Major R. H. Lunn, W. Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull) Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side) Mabane, W. (Huddersfield) Ward, Irene (Wallsend) Duggan, H. J. McKie, J. H. Warrender, Sir V. Eckersley, P. T. Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. Waterhouse, Captain C. Edwards, Sin C. (Bedwellty) Maxwell, S. A. Wedderburn, H. J. S. Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E. Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J. Wells, S. R. Eimley, Viscount Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth) Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R. Emrys-Evans, P. V. Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest) Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.) Entwistle, C. F. Mitcheson, Sir G. G. Williams, T. (Don Valley) Errington, E. Moreing, A. C. Wise, A. R. Everard, W. L. Munro, P. M. Womersley, Sir W. J. Findlay, Sir E. Neven-Spence, Maj. B. H. Fraser, Capt. Sir I. Nicolson, Hon. H. G. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Fremantle, Sir F. E. Orr-Ewing, I. L. Mr. James Stuart and Dr. Morris-Jones. Fyfe, D. P. M. Palmer, G. E. H. Goodman, Col. A. W. Penny, Sir G.
NOES. Banfield, J. W. Cocks, F. S. Ede, J. C. Batey, J. Daggar, G. Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.) Bevan, A. Davies, D. L. (Pontypridd) Garro-Jones, G. M. Brown, C. (Mansfield) Davies, S. O. (Merthyr) Green, W. H. (Deptford) Hardie, G. D. Oliver, G. H. Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth) Holland, A. Parker, H. J. H. Williams, E. J. (Ogmore) Hollins, A. Potts, J. Windsor, W. (Hull, C.) Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath) Prltt, D. N. Woods, G. S. (Finsbury) Kelly, W. T. Rowson, G. MacMillan, M. (Western Isles) Sexton, T. M. TELLERS FOR THE NOES— Maxton, J. Silverman, S. S. Mr. Tinker and Mr. Ellis Smith. Milner, Major J. Stephen, C.
Bill accordingly read a Second time.
Bill committed to a Committee of the Whole House for Monday next.—[ Captain Margesson. ]
Electricity (Supply) Acts
Resolved,
"That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners, under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1935, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the acquisition and use by the Mayor, Aldermen, and Burgesses of the borough of Brighton of lands for the extension of their generating station in the urban district of Southwick, in the administrative county of West Sussex, which was presented on the 4th day of February 1936, be approved."
Resolved,
"That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners, under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1935, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, and the Public Works Facilities Act, 1930, for the transfer of the undertaking authorised by the Woodbridge and District Electricity Special Order, 1925, which was presented on the 4th day of February 1936, be approved."
Resolved,
"That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners, under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1935, and con- firmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of part of the rural district of Bucklow, in the county of Chester, which was presented on the 4th day of February 1936, be approved."—[ Captain A. Hudson. ]
Privileges
Ordered,
"That Sir Hugh O'Neill be discharged from the Committee of Privileges, and that Mr. Ramsay MacDonald and Mr. Lambert be added to the Committee."—[ Sir George Penny. ]
Estimates
Ordered,
"That Mr. Lewis be added to the Committee on Estimates."—[ Sir George Penny. ]
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
It being after Half-past Eleven of the Clock upon Thursday evening, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned at Three Minutes after Twelve o'Clock.