asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any representations have been made to the British Government by any of the signatories to the Nine Power Treaty relating to China, to the effect that the same has been violated; and, if so, will he give particulars?

The bearing of the Nine Power Treaty, as well as of the Covenant of the League and the Pact of Paris of 1928, on Sino-Japanese relations was the subject of discussion between the signatories generally during the course of the Sino-Japanese dispute regarding Manchuria between September, 1931, and February, 1933. Apart from this I am not aware of any specific representations to His Majesty's Government of the kind mentioned in the hon. Member's question by any of the signatory Powers.

Has any action been taken following the discussions to which the right hon. Gentleman has referred?

There have not been any representations of the kind mentioned by the hon. Member and so there cannot have been any action on them.

Did not the right hon. Gentleman say that there were some discussions on Manchuria?

I am afraid I should weary the House if I were to give an account of the Manchurian dispute.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (1) whether he has drawn the attention of the Japanese Government to the serious consequences to legitimate trade of the extensive smuggling of Japanese goods into China from Dairen through the autonomous area of East Hopei in the demilitarized zone; and whether he will represent to the Japanese Ambassador that the continuance of this practice must lead to a demand for discrimination against Japanese goods in other parts of the world;

(2) whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that the action of the East Hopei autonomous Government in lowering the tariff on imports from Dairen has permitted the smuggling into the rest of China of large quantities of merchandise and that the new preventive methods adopted by the Tientsin Customs have been largely nullified in consequence; and what steps he is taking to secure that British loans secured on the Chinese Customs are riot placed in jeopardy by an extension of these practices;

(3) whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that the proper collection of the Chinese Customs revenue upon which British and other foreign loans are secured is being imperilled by the extensive smuggling of Japanese goods through the demilitarised zone and the Hopei-Chahar autonomous area; by how much the revenue of the Tientsin Customs was reduced in consequence in the month of March; and what steps he is taking to safeguard the security of the British loans affected?

The serious growth of smuggling in North China has been engaging the attention of His Majesty's Government for some time past, and has already formed the subject of representations both to the Chinese and Japanese Governments. In view, however, of the recent deterioration in the position and of the reduction in duty levied on goods entering North China via the demilitarised zone, His Majesty's Government are at present actively considering what further steps can be taken to safe- guard British trade in that area and to ensure that the security for the foreign loan services will not be endangered. Beyond what has appeared in the Press, I have no information regarding the loss to the Chinese Customs revenue occasioned by this development, but a full report on the situation is on its way from His Majesty's Embassy in China.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say when these steps will be decided?

Perhaps my hon. Friend will put down a question in about a week's time.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Government propose to take any action with a view to supplying to Abyssinia, either through the League of Nations or the Red Cross, gas masks, chemical materials for the treatment of gas-inflicted wounds, or to send a technical medical mission, in view of the suffering caused by Italian gas attacks made in breach of treaty engagements?

I understand that appropriate medical supplies for the treatment of sufferers, or funds for their purchase, are being forwarded to Abyssinia by various societies and private organisations in this country. I need hardly add that humanitarian efforts of this description have the warm approval of His Majesty's Government.

Has the right hon. Gentleman reason to believe that the amounts collected in connection with these matters would have served this purpose; and will he consider whether some of the profits made by the Government on Anglo-Iranian oil shares might not suitably be devoted to the purpose?

Will the right hon. Gentleman watch the position carefully and if there is any lack of adequate supplies, will he see whether the Government cannot do something?

We have been interesting ourselves in this matter and have been in touch with these organisations.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the British Government are prepared to propose at the forthcoming meeting of the Council of the League of Nations action to prevent the passage of poison gas through the Suez Canal to be used, in breach of treaty engagements, against the population, civil and military, of Abyssinia by the Italian forces?

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave on Monday to a similar question by the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Mr. Cocks).

But surely the Government are not going to be content with merely drawing the dividends on the carriage of poison gas through the Suez Canal? Surely, they are going to do a great deal more than that?

There is a question about that on the Paper.

Will the Government not use the extra amount which they are receiving for the carriage of poison gas to buy gas masks for the Abyssinians?

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether chemicals necessary for the production of poison gas borne on ships passing through the Suez Canal are subject to a charge; and, if so, what is the revenue of the Suez Canal Company from this source since the commencement of the Italo-Abyssinian war?

I understand that Canal dues are assessed by the Suez Canal Company on the tonnage of the vessel passing through the Canal, whether laden or in ballast, and not on the goods carried. I regret therefore that the information asked for by my hon. and gallant Friend is not available.

What is the purpose, then, of asking what specific goods are carried? There must be some purpose in obtaining that information.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say what amount of profit has accrued to the Government by reason of the heavy increase in Italian ships passing through the Canal?

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any information as to the restrictions on transport of munitions for the Abyssinian forces on the Jibuti railway; and whether there have been any communications between the Abyssinian and French Governments on this matter, or between His Majesty's Government and the French Government, in view of the fact that such restriction is contrary to the terms of the 1930 Treaty between Abyssinia, France, Great Britain and Italy?

I understand that the French authorities at Jibuti have not forwarded to their destination two small consignments of arms ordered by the Abyssinian Government and shipped from German ports. No communications have passed between His Majesty's Government and the French Government on this subject, but I cannot say whether there have been any between France and Abyssinia.

As we are pledged by the Treaty of 1930 to see that Abyssinia receives the arms necessary for her defence, is it not the duty of the Government to investigate the position and to see that they are getting the necessary supplies?

My hon. and gallant Friend appreciates, I am sure, the fact that there is a practical as well as a legal side to this question. In fact, Abyssinia has been receiving certain supplies along this railway, whereas her other communications have been cut. I think the matter might be left to the Abyssinian Government.

Are we to understand from the reply, that apart from these two small shipments, the French Government have been allowing the passage of munitions along this railway to Abyssinia all the time?

No, I would not care to make that deduction.

Is it not a fact that every possible obstacle has been placed in the way of munitions travelling up to this area?

That does not apply to British territories.

As we are signatories of the Treaty of 1930, which undertakes that the Abyssinians shall receive the amount of munitions necessary for the defence of that country, is it not our duty to investigate the position and to see that they receive the supplies?

What I suggested that my hon. and gallant Friend should consider was whether his suggestion is in the interests of Abyssinia.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many labourers have been recruited from Malta for service with the Italian Army in East Africa?

So far as can be ascertained, none have been recruited.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether His Majesty's Government will continue to support the Convention regarding the international status of refugees, passed at Geneva on 28th October, 1933?

The position in regard to this Convention has not changed since the date of the reply returned by my Noble Friend to the hon. and gallant Member for Nuneaton (Lieut. - Commander Fletcher) on 30th March, of which I am sending my hon. and gallant Friend a copy, and to which I can add nothing for the present.

Will the right hon. Gentleman use his influence at Geneva to oppose any suggestion of abandonment of the refugees by the League?

My hon. and gallant Friend will appreciate that this Convention covers the problem as a whole and that we have to consider it very carefully.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether arrangements are made by his Department to endeavour to negotiate an exchange between any British national who is held on a charge of espionage in a foreign country and a national of that country who is held in this country on a similar charge?

No, Sir.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether he can now state the result of the inquiry by his inspector into the wage rates paid by Jamieson and Company, Riversdale Street, Glasgow, who are on the Admiralty list; what wages are paid to lads taking up work with the firm, the annual increments being paid in such cases; whether all workers with five years' service or more are being paid the full journeyman's rate of wages on the standard recognised by the trade union concerned; and whether he is assured that trade union conditions are being fully observed?

The promised inquiry into the wages rates paid by Messrs. Jamieson and Company has now been made and shows that the firm are satisfying the requirements of the Fair Wages Clause. They are, therefore, eligible in every way to receive Admiralty contracts which are within their capacity. It would be contrary to Admiralty practice to disclose the actual wages paid, but I may say, however, that the suggestion in the hon. Member's question of 12th March that boys of 16 years of age were being paid 9s. per week is not confirmed. Under trade union conditions, the practice is to pay full journeyman's rates after six years' apprenticeship, not after five years as stated by the hon. Member, and the inquiry showed that the full journeyman's rate is paid to all workers entitled to receive it.

Can the hon. Gentleman say why a lad who has nearly 11 years' service is not receiving full journeyman's pay? Is he aware that I have been informed by the father of this lad that he has been nearly 11 years in service at these works and is not receiving journeyman's pay yet; and will he have inquiry made into that case?

I have made careful inquiries into this case, and I am satisfied that all those entitled to receive that rate of pay are receiving it at the present time.

On what basis have the Admiralty agreed to six years' apprentice- ship in Scotland before the journeyman's rate is paid?

This has been the practice for a good many years.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can explain the reason why Belo, a headman who had served for 40 years on the Nigerian railways in various capacities, and who was dismissed in December, 1934, on account of old age, was only granted an ex-gratia gratuity of £7 16s., instead of the more considerable sum which previous grants had led him to expect; and whether any further grant will now be made to headman Belo?

This man wes granted the maximum amount payable to an employé of his status under the procedure in force at the time of his retirement. The answer to the second part of the question is in the negative.

If I hand the correspondence dealing with this question to the right hon. Gentleman, will he give it further consideration?

Certainly. I looked into it personally, and the difficulty was the question of retrospective payments, but I will certainly look into it again.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that the conditions of service and rates of pay of the West African section of the Colonial Medical Service have recently been revised; that this revision has caused such dissatisfaction as to compel the Nigerian section to memorialise his Department; and what action he proposes to take in the matter?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. I have recently received, through the Governor of Nigeria, a memorial from the members of the Colonial Medical Service serving in Nigeria, which is receiving consideration.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will take the opportunity of the visit of the Arab delegates from Palestine to England to bring the Arabs and Jews together at a round-table conference?

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in connection with the forthcoming visit of the Palestine-Arab delegation to this country, he will consider the desirability of setting up a round-table conference of representatives of every interest in Palestine with a view to evolving a constitution which will provide a permanent and satisfactory settlement for that mandated territory?

The object with which the Arab leaders in Palestine have been invited to this country is that they may have an opportunity of stating their case to His Majesty's Government, and it will be appreciated that, until I have received and considered their representations, I am not in a position to make any further statement.

When does my right hon. Friend assume that these arrangements will be finished?

The difficulty, unfortunately, in Palestine at the moment is delaying the leaving of the Arab deputation. Therefore, obviously I could not say when they are coming.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has received any report from the High Commissioner for Palestine concerning the case of I. Z. Koltun, a Jewish writer, who is being held in prison in Palestine, against whom no charge has been brought and who is in bad health, aggravated by the conditions of his confinement?

I am still awaiting a report from the High Commissioner for Palestine, but I understand that Koltun was released on bail as long ago as 13th March.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been called to the fact that out of 500 porters and 90 customs guards employed by the Haifa port authorities not one is a Jew; and whether, in view of the fact that the Jewish population of Palestine amounts to approximately one-third of the whole and contributes over half the revenue of that mandated territory, he will cause arrangements to be made to ensure that a proportion of Jews are employed on all works paid for out of public funds and that the present discrimination against Jewish labour will cease?

I am not able to confirm the statement made in the first part of the question, but I understand that Arabs offer themselves more readily than Jews for labour in the ports of Palestine. As regards the second part of the question, employment on works paid for out of public funds in Palestine is available to Jews on the same conditions as to non-Jews.

Will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that the mandate for Palestine, at any rate, will not be handed over to Germany?

That does not arise out of the difference between Jews not seeking work and Arabs wanting work.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies with reference to the Kenya Government's announced intention to expel some 300 Kikuyu natives from the holdings permanently held by them in Kenya in order to make way for white proprietors, what steps it is proposed to take to explain to the natives concerned the grounds on which this expropriation has been decided on?

I have no information in regard to the subject of this question, beyond what has appeared in the Press, but I will make inquiries.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether the inquiries being made into the question of substituting butter for margarine in the rations of the Royal Air Force are concluded; and if so, what decisions have been reached?

I have been asked to reply. The inquiries are not yet concluded.

When the new uniforms for the officers come into use on 1st May, will the hon. and gallant Gentleman try to shift margarine out of the way, and get butter?

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether his attention has been called to the fact that, on the occasion of the Football Association Cup Final at Wembley on 25th April, a number of aeroplanes towing advertisement streamers and of autogiros carrying photographers flew round the area of the stadium; and whether he will cause inquiry to be made as to the advisability of prohibiting flights of this kind where large crowds are gathered in future?

I have been asked to reply. I am advised, first, that the police found nothing in the flying carried out at Wembley to justify action by them against those responsible; second, that no danger was involved which would have justified my Noble Friend in issuing a prohibition of flying over the stadium in the interests of public safety. I understand that flying for the purpose of photographing the cup final is no innovation, and it was not considered that there was sufficient reason to justify intervention by the Air Ministry. Whether or not any action should be taken in the interest of public safety must depend on the circumstances of the particular case.

Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman say whether in such a case it was necessary to obtain a special permit from the Air Ministry?

I will inquire into that.

Is it not a fact that this was one of the reasons why Sheffield lost the cup?

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that the Hong Kong authorities recently refused to agree to an American proposal to make Hong Kong the terminal point in China for a regular trans-Pacific air service; that the proposition was accepted by the Portuguese authorities at Macau; and whether he' has any statement to make on the subject?

I am not aware of any recent application having been made on behalf of American interests for permission to operate a regular trans-Pacific air service to Hong Kong, but if such a request were to be made His Majesty's Government would be prepared to give it favourable consideration.

Will the right hon. Gentleman inquire at Hong Kong? I have definite information that this request was made and was refused, as commercial interests in Hong Kong were very much annoyed at the decision.

Before giving this answer, I ascertained the facts from Hong Kong, and I was assured that no application had been made. I have already answered that if an application was made, it would be favourably considered.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether the White Paper containing detailed proposals in connection with the air services to Scandinavia will be available to Members of this House before the Financial Resolution in connection with the Air Navigation Bill is considered in Committee?

I have been asked to reply. I regret that this will not be practicable. The White Paper will, however, be laid in advance of the signing of the agreement.

Will my hon. and gallant Friend represent to the Under-Secretary of State that this House was promised as long ago as 7th March that this White Paper would be published very shortly, and that the delay in publishing it is giving rise to wonder whether the Government wish the House not to have the information until the Debate takes place?

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air why it has not been possible to obtain the co-operation of Lloyd's Register in the formation of the board to which it is proposed to delegate certain functions in regard to the design, construction and maintenance of civil aircraft?

I have been asked to reply. The Committee of Lloyd's Register were invited, through their Joint Aviation Advisory Committee, to take part in framing the scheme under which the proposed board would be constituted. They preferred, however, to stand aside and to leave the new body to be directed by purely aviation and allied interests. At the same time Lloyd's Register and the British Corporation were good enough to lend the services of their secretaries to assist in the drafting of the scheme, and I should like to take this opportunity of expressing my Noble Friend's appreciation of their action.

asked the Minister of Transport whether, in view of the fact that it is frequently impossible for drivers to see the signals made by the drivers of large vehicles, especially motor omnibuses, he will, in the interest of public safety, make it compulsory for such vehicles to be equipped with some type of automatic signals?

The Regulations prescribe that the driver's seat shall be so placed as to permit him to give by hand the usual traffic signals on the offside of the vehicle. It has not hitherto been found desirable to make the fitting of mechanical indicators compulsory on any vehicle, and the Regulations confine themselves to prescribing the form which indicators Should take if they are fitted.

Has the right hon. Gentleman had experience of driving on twisted country roads, for instance, where it is almost entirely impossible to see any signal made by the driver of a large omnibus or similar vehicle

Whether or not that be the case, I do not think making it compulsory to have such indicators would be a solution. Some drivers are in the habit of leaving their indicators on when they ought to nave turned them off again.

Cannot they be made automatic? Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that there is a lot of automatic signals fixed to motor cars?

asked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware of the protests made by the local authorities of the counties of East Lothian, Midlothian, and Dumbartonshire against the lesser grant-in-aid of trunk-road schemes which the Ministry is giving to those counties as compared with the other counties of Scotland; and whether, in view of this unfair discrimination, he will raise the grant in these three cases to the level of the general grant given?

The rates of grant available to county councils for works of improvement on trunk roads vary according to their need as ascertained under the Local Government Acts formula of 1929. On this basis the three counties referred to by my hon. and gallant Friend receive more than some counties but less than others.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he can state the charges made by the owners of the ferry operating between North and South Queensferry in respect of the transport of motor vehicles of between two and four tons and of over four tons; and the stage reached with the proposition to run a special night service for heavy vehicles to cope with the large number of these vehicles which at present cannot use the ferry owing to the prohibitive cost of transport?

As the answer includes a number of figures, I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind the present high cost of transport across the Forth when he is considering the question of the Forth road bridge?

Most certainly; all these facts will be placed before me.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the ferry is now completely out of date, and is it not desirable that he should turn his attention to the need for improved facilities for traffic by proceeding with the Forth road bridge?

I think that it is customary to argue a case before giving a verdict. The interested parties have not yet prepared the case which they are to submit to me.

asked the Minister of Transport the number of inquiries held by his Department with regard to the derestriction of certain roads; how many areas have, after inquiry, been derestricted; and how many have been left under restriction?

As the answer involves a number of figures, I will with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate it with the OFFICIAL REPORT.

asked the Minister of Transport whether has has considered representations from the residents of Pangbourne and Whitchurch with regard to removing the toll-bridge at Whit-church; what is the present number of toll-bridges on the Thames; and the total number in the country?

No recent representations have been made to me with regard to the freeing of Whitchurch Bridge from tolls. There are five toll-bridges over the Thames and a total of 77 toll-bridges on roads in Great Britain. I am prepared to consider applications by the responsible highway authorities for grants towards the elimination of tollbridges.

Does the right hon. Gentleman think it is possible to free these tolls all the time the Chancellor is nibbling at his Road Fund?

That does not make the slightest difference.

Are local authorities rising to the occasion and making applications?

I should require notice of that question.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will approach the railway companies to ascertain whether they will be prepared to allow season tickets for a period of one quarter or over to be extended by the days of the holder's holidays provided the holder hands such ticket in at his local booking office before proceeding on holiday?

I will communicate my hon. and gallant Friend's suggestion to the railway companies.

In submitting this to the railway companies, will the right hon. Gentleman point out to them that when he raised the question before, the reply of the railway companies did not meet the case? It merely dealt with refunds and refunds were not asked for, only an extension of the period of the season ticket?

I will ask the railway companies to give a complete answer to my hon. and gallant Friend's suggestion.

asked the Minister of Transport whether, in respect of the death of James McGregor who, while riding a bicycle in Wandsworth, suffered a fatal accident occasioned by the neglect of the responsible authority to keep its roadway and the tramway tracks thereon in repair, he will consider the anomaly at present arising from the distinction at law between the liability of local authorities for nonfeasance and for misfeasance; and whether he will introduce legislation to remove this anomaly by providing that local authorities shall be responsible for damage resulting from their omission or neglect to maintain roadways in a safe and proper condition?

As I am unable to confirm the circumstances of the unfortunate accident to which my hon. Friend refers, and as he raises legal issues extending far beyond the scope of any responsibilities of my Department, I would be reluctant to express an opinion in reply to a question on this matter.

asked the Minister of Transport what is the space existing between moving trains on the existing Fulham section of the District Railway; and at what date was this regulation first imposed that determined this spacing?

I will communicate to my hon. Friend the result of his inquiry as soon as I receive the information.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he has considered the petition signed by 240 residents on the Holly Lodge Estate, in the Borough of St. Pancras, showing that in their opinion the proposal of the London Passenger Transport Board to make a turning circle for trolley omnibuses at the junction of Swain's Lane, West and Highgate Road is contrary to the public interest and dangerous to life; and whether he can give assurances that before such a turning circle is permitted to be made the views of local residents will be taken into account and full inquiry undertaken?

If Parliament authorises this route and the board apply for my approval of the turning circle, I will certainly consider any representations that may then be made to me.

Will the Ministry in the ordinary course take steps to advertise the time when such a matter comes under consideration, so that all interested may know?

No doubt my hon. and gallant Friend realises that this matter is referred to in the Bill of the London Passenger Transport Board before Parliament, and therefore I think that full publicity will be given to it.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will state, for the last available year, the amounts expended by county highway authorities in Great Britain on Class I and Class II roads and bridges, showing. respectively, expenditure out of the rates fund, out of the Road Fund grants, met out of loans raised and to be raised, and met otherwise, under the headings of maintenance, repair and minor improvement, major improvement, and new construction

I will, with my hon. and gallant Friend's permission, circulate the table of figures in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

asked the Minister of Transport by what percentage the estimated electrical load for 1935 on the transmission system between Carlisle and Egremont is exceeded; what further load the existing system would carry; whether the existing system is not yet normally carrying 50 per cent. of its possible load; and whether the Central Electricity Board will delay the construction of further circuits from Carlisle to the west of Cumberland until such a percentage is reached?

The Central Electricity Board inform me that the load on the transmission system between Carlisle and Egremont is expected to exceed the safe capacity of the existing line in 1937, and that they cannot, therefore, delay the construction of further circuits.

asked the Prime Minister whether the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence, the Minister of Agriculture, or the President of the Board of Trade is responsible for the policy of His Majesty's Government regarding the food supplies of this country?

Responsibility for policy rests with the Government as a whole. As indicated on 22nd April by my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence, a special committee which is under his chairmanship is now engaged on a re-examination of the whole question of food supply in an emergency, and as I informed my hon. Friend on 2nd April, various aspects of the question are dealt with in the appropriate Department.

asked the Prime Minister whether, in formulating a policy for food production and supplies in this country, His Majesty's Government will take into special consideration the question of nutrition?

I can assure my hon. Friend that the important questions of nutrition are receiving due consideration in connection with the problem of food supplies now under review.

In view of the wide area covered by this question and the number of ministries involved, does not the Prime Minister think that it would be advisable to set up a permanent committee, rather than a mere temporary committee under the Committee of Coordination of Defence, in order to consider this question and to formulate a policy? I beg to give notice that I will raise this matter at the earliest opportunity on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence whether any trials have been made, or experiments carried out, by any of the mechanised motor services of His Majesty's Forces which use petrol for the use of petrol distilled from British coal; and whether any satisfactory results have been obtained?

The answer to both parts of the question is in the affirmative. In addition to trials and experiments carried out, material quantities of motor spirit and other oil products obtained from coal have been purchased by the Service Departments in the ordinary way and used under normal conditions.

Are these experiments continuing?

They are not experiments, but normal transactions.

Are the results obtained from this fuel satisfactory?

For normal uses, most satisfactory.

asked the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence, whether he will state upon how many occasions since his appointment the chiefs of staff sub-committee has met and upon how many occasions he himself has presided at its meetings?

It has not been the practice to state the number or frequency of meetings of individual committees of the Committee of Imperial Defence, and I should deprecate doing so now, because the figures might be very misleading for the purpose of estimating the amount of work in progress. In this particular case they would afford no index of the amount of consultation which takes place almost daily between the chiefs of staff and myself.

May I ask how often my right hon. Friend has taken the chair at meetings of the committee?

That is precisely the information which I suggest to the House it is not advisable to give. I am, of course, in the hands of the House if I am pressed to give the figures.

asked the Prime Minister when the Disarmament Conference, suspended at. Geneva in March, 1933, for a few days, is likely to meet again?

The hon. Member is under a misapprehension. The Disarmament Conference was not suspended in March, 1933, but continued to meet in 1933 and 1934. As regards future developments I would refer to the reply given by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to a question asked by the hon. Member for Gower (Mr. Grenfell) on 4th February last.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take measures to get this conference going again so that he may have a chance of saving the appalling expenditure which he contemplates?

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that on 24th April the Great Western Railway Company announced that owing to a further decline in trade due partly to sanctions against coal exports to Italy, resulting in a loss of exports from South Wales from two to three million tons per annum, Penarth Dock is to be closed; whether any Government Department was consulted by the Great Western Railway Company prior o this decision being made; whether the Government propose to locate any of the new Government works, or part of Woolwich Arsenal, in this area to compensate for the loss of salaries, wages, and other local revenues; and whether he is now in a position to announce his decision regarding the question of State assistance for South Wales generally, and economic restoration throughout the region?

I am aware that the Great Western Railway Company has announced that owing to the continued decline in coal exports it is closing Penarth Dock temporarily. I must, however, correct my hon. and gallant Friend's suggestion that sanctions against Italy have resulted in a loss of exports from South Wales of from two to three million tons a year. Most of the fall in exports, in fact, took place before sanctions were instituted. As regards the second part of the question, the general manager informed my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport on the 17th instant that the proposals for the temporary closing of the dock were again before the company, and that a formal announcement would be made as soon as the decision had been confirmed by the board. As regards the third part of the question, I am not in a position to add to the statement on Government factories made by the Lord President of the Council in the Debate on 2nd March last. The more general question raised in the last part of the question cannot be discussed within the limits of a Parliamentary reply, but my hon. and gallant Friend will be aware that the Government's policy in relation to both Special Areas and areas of heavy unemployment has been fully explained on recent occasions.

Is the Prime Minister aware that the reason for the falling off in trade because of sanctions was given by the Great Western Railway Company themselves; and is it not a fact that, although it is true that coal is not on the prohibited list so far as sanctions are concerned, the effect of sanctions has been to make it impossible for Italy to establish sterling credits in London which would enable her to pay for South Wales coal? With regard to the second part of the reply, did His Majesty's Government make any protest to the Great Western Railway Company when this decision was made known to them; and will my right hon. Friend be kind enough to deal with the part of the question which asks whether it is proposed to locate any Government works in this area to compensate it for loss of trade?

With regard to the last part, I said I could not add to the statement that has been made by the Lord President of the Council. That statement stands, and until the land has been acquired it is inadvisable to say anything further. With regard to exports, the difficulty has very likely been quickened by the imposition of sanctions, but the difficulty for a long time has been in securing proper payments from Italy for goods. That is a difficulty that arose before sanctions were put on.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consult with the chairman of the Great Western Railway Company as to the cause of the falling off in the export coal trade of South Wales, and are the Government taking any action to deal with this serious loss of trade?

I was not on this occasion consulted, but I agree that it is one of the many difficult situations with which this country is faced in view of the difficulties of international trade and of remittances.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consult with the chairman of the Great Western Railway Company as to his opinion of the cause of the closing down of this dock and the loss of trade in South Wales generally?

Is it true that the Italians were owing South Wales coal-owners £2,000,000 before sanctions were adopted?

asked the Prime Minister whether the Government have considered and arrived at any conclusion upon the terms of the questionnaire to be forwarded to Herr Hitler asking for further explanations of his peace proposals; and can he make a statement?

His Majesty's Government hope to get into touch with the German Government at a very early date in order, as forecast in the Geneva communiqué of 10th April, to elucidate certain points in the German memorandum of 31st March and the two earlier memoranda of 24th March and 7th March.

Will the communication take the form of a formal note or a memorandum?

I have nothing to add to the answer I have given.

asked the First Commissioner of Works whether his attention has been called to the continual traffic congestion at the Victoria Gate entrance to Hyde Park; and whether he proposes to take any action in the matter so as to improve the traffic conditions?

I am aware of the problem to which my hon. and gallant Friend refers. It is being considered, in connection with the question of traffic generally in and around the park, by the Ministry of Transport and the police authorities, and will be considered by my Department in the light of their representations.

Cannot my right hon. Friend come to a decision on this matter which has been under consideration for some years now? The congestion is very serious.

My hon. and gallant Friend will know that an agreement made to alter one artery of traffic in a park may affect traffic in many other places. This is a problem which has to be considered as a whole, and, as I say, I am not a traffic authority or a traffic expert and this is a matter for the Ministry of Transport and the police authorities in London. I cannot do anything unless they make representations.

Can the right hon. Gentleman give any indication of when the matter is likely to be considered and a decision come to?

No, I cannot.

Does my right hon. Friend mean that he cannot take action in respect of exits from the park unless he gets outside recommendations?

Certainly, I cannot alter the traffic rules and arrangements in and out of the park without consulting the traffic authorities.

asked the First Commissioner of Works, on what grounds the use of loud speakers was refused for the Cavalry memorial service in Hyde Park on 26th April; and whether he is aware that such use was permitted in former years?

I have been compelled to make it a rule riot to allow the use of loud speakers in Hyde Park, and my hon. and gallant Friend will understand that this rule, which is for the benefit of all users of the park, could not long be maintained if I made any exceptions. I am aware that loud speakers have been allowed at the Cavalry memorial service in former years, and, as a result, I have had numerous requests for them at other functions. I therefore explained to Lord Allenby that in the general interest I could not allow the exceptional privilege to continue.

Does that reply mean that there will be no loud speakers in the May Day demonstrations on Sunday?

Certainly.

Why not?

Because you frequently get two or more people speaking in Hyde Park at the same time, and if they are all to have loud speakers it will be pandemonium.

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether any progress has been made in the direction of a scheme for the efficient marketing of beef?

There is nothing that I can add at present to the reply my right hon. Friend gave to my hon. Friend's question on this subject on 17th February.

Will my hon. Friend say whether the Ministry of Agriculture have been in consultation with the industry on this matter?

Oh, yes. Certainly.

asked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether any consultations have taken place with the Dominions, and whether he is able to state their views, on the subject of a possible surrender, under any circumstances, of the territories now held by them under mandate from the League of Nations; and whether the policy of the Dominions in this matter is in all respects the same as that of the British Government?

The question to which the hon. Member refers is one for the consideration of His Majesty's Governments in the Dominions concerned. As was made clear by the Prime Minister in reply to the hon. Member on 23rd April, no question of consultation between His Majesty's Governments on this matter has arisen. The hon. Member will appreciate, therefore, that I am not in a position to answer the last part of his question, but I have no reason to suppose that any difference would arise.

Do I understand from that reply that, in the view of all the Dominions, this is for the future an open question?

No, Sir, no consultation has taken place, and I do not know what the view of the Dominions is.

Would it not be desirable to find out, so that there might be a united Empire policy?

The question has not arisen.

As a matter of fact, is it not perfectly well known that none of the Dominions would in any circumstances surrender its mandate?

Then why put the question?

asked the President of the Board of Education whether the deadlock in connection with the acquisition of the site for the new elementary school at Springfield, East Kingsbury, N.W., still exists; and, if so, what steps to obtain possession of the site does he propose to take?

I have been asked to reply. My right hon. Friend understands that the local education authority have not yet been able to agree with the vendors on terms for the acquisition of the site in question and have decided that, in the event of agreement not being arrived at within the next few days, application should be made to the board for authority to purchase the land compulsorily.

Is my hon. Friend aware that five years ago the county council authorised this school, and does he not think five years is too long to wait for that site?

It does seem that a decision is now to be made.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the Government contemplate the introduction of a Redistribution Bill before the end of the present Parliament?

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave to the hon. and gallant Member for the Nuneaton Division (Lieut.-Commander Fletcher) on 2nd April.

Can the hon. Gentleman tell me whether that reply indicates that there will be a Redistribution Bill or not?

The effect of that reply was that the programme for the present Session had been announced, and that my right hon. Friend could not anticipate the work of future Sessions.

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury what is the present minimum rate of interest on advances made by the Public Works Loans Board to local authorities for the purposes of the Housing Acts; and whether he will take steps to make some reduction in such rate of interest in order to ease the financial burdens of local authorities?

The present minimum rate of interest on loans to local authorities out of the Local Loans Fund is 3¼ per cent., to which figure it was reduced on 16th November, 1934. I regret that it is not possible to reduce this rate without endangering the solvency of the fund.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he has considered the request sent by the vice-president of the Miners' Federation to eliminate the means test from the operations of the Unemployment Assistance Board; and what reply he has made thereto?

My right hon. Friend has received a letter dated 16th April to which I presume the hon. Member refers. The policy of the Government in this matter has been clearly stated in this House, and my right hon. Friend did not think it necessary to send any reply to the letter beyond the acknowledgment of its receipt.

I beg to move, to leave out from "That," to the end of the Question, and to add instead thereof:

"having regard to the number of road accidents that occur after dark and to the desirability of affording adequate illumination for the convenience and safety of the public and for the prevention of crime, it is expedient that the lighting of highways should be dealt with on a national basis."

I count myself fortunate in having this opportunity to move this Amendment. I hope that the opportunity will not be entirely wasted, and that my Amendment may be of interest to the House. It is well known to us all that the lighting of the roads is not satisfactory. A great change has taken place in transport conditions during the last generation, and there are now about 10,000,000 cycles and more than 2,000,000 motor vehicles on the highways, as against a comparatively small number of horse-drawn vehicles. The pace on the road used to be never higher than 10 or 12 miles per hour. I well remember when residing in France the first motor omnibuses appeared on the streets of Paris, with considerable clatter and noise and at an apparent fast pace but actually not more than 15 or 20 miles per hour, which was considered so dangerous that they were called juggernauts. To-day, motor omnibuses go everywhere at 30 miles per hour, and motoring critics quite frequently mention that a new car has a comfortable cruising speed of 60 miles per hour.

Bad lighting is due to the fact that lighting is controlled by 1,400 local authorities. In the interim report of the Departmental Committee it is stated that there is an arterial road near London which is 13 miles in length and has 27 variations of lighting standards. If you travel at 30 miles per hour along that road you can therefore expect a change of lighting every 60 seconds, good, bad and indifferent. Anyone who drives knows that constant changes of that kind are dangerous, and conduce to accidents. Such results cannot be rightly ascribed to the crass stupidity of local authorities; it is due to the impossibility of their carrying out the work that is now allotted to them. The report mentions also that the cost to a small local authority of lighting a highway which goes through their district might be a 10-shilling rate, whereas the same work done by the county council would cost.65d. It is obvious that until this work is taken out of the hands of local authorities and put under the central control of the Ministry of Transport, such a state of affairs will continue.

I realise that the same applies generally to the roads, but there are questions affecting light which form a problem of their own and the need for central control is dominant. The reason why I am glad to have this opportunity of speaking on the matter is that I believe a serious proportion of the accidents which take place could be prevented by better lighting. Not expecting to have this opportunity, I spoke on 4th March when the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Mr. C. S. Taylor) addressed the House on road safety, and I brought forward certain statistics to show the number of accidents which might have been prevented. This is one of the most serious aspects of the lighting problem. I specially wish to mention it because it is dealt with in the interim report, and because accidents are undoubtedly due to bad lighting. The Committee state that they cannot find actual data to prove to what degree accidents are due solely to poor lighting. If hon. Members will refer to the Home Office Report on Fatal Road Accidents, 1933, they will find a detailed statement showing the fatal accidents hour by hour for the whole 24 hours of the day, and month by month.

I would ask the House to consider the accidents which occur between 5 p.m. and 8 p.m. That is one of the busiest times of the day, and affords the best comparison I can find between light hours and dark hours. In May, June and July, that part of the day is entirely light, and in November, December and January, it is dark. The accidents in the latter months are 25 per cent. greater than in the summer, despite the fact that the number of vehicles on the roads is much smaller in the winter. In the Home Office Report on Accidents for last year one finds other equally interesting data. Public vehicles are used to approximately the same extent in both winter and summer, and, comparing the deaths taking place in May, June and July of last year with those in the three dark winter months, one finds that the increase in November, December and January was 50 per cent. Another important comparison affects light commercial vehicles. These, again, run to about the same extent in summer and winter, and in this case there are no fewer than 66 per cent. more deaths in the winter than in the summer, while the accidents show a very similar state of affairs.

What would it cost to light the roads adequately? In the Interim Report it is suggested that some 10,000 miles of roads could be lit by what is now called flood lighting, with lamps suspended 25 feet high, for £3,500,000 to £4,000,000 per annum. In the course of the important review on the subject of lighting which took place at the Public Works and Transport Congress last November, the extent of the roads necessary to be lit was given as 8,000 miles, and the cost as £2,500,000 per annum. This sum may strike the House as very considerable until they consider the saving that can be effected on the other side. If, as I believe to be the case, the figures I have quoted to-day and on previous occasions are correct—they are vouched for by official documents—they show that there would be a saving of some 700 deaths and 19,000 injuries per year, and personally I think that that in itself is sufficient to warrant the cost, apart from other factors; but actually I believe that the economic saving to the country would balance the cost. In the United States of America that claim is made without any doubt at all.

I base my suggestion as to the saving that would take place on the following grounds. In the first place, motor insurance companies pay in claims no less than £25,000,000 per year, and a 10 per cent. saving would be £2,500,000. I realise that that would not go to the Treasury, but it does affect the country as a whole, and it does give some indication of the extent of the present problem. Beyond, however, the saving to the insurance companies and ultimately to the public, the suffering that has to be undergone is very great and the cost that is entailed upon everyone concerned, in addition to what is paid by insurance companies, is very heavy. The possible saving to hospitals, ambulances and police cannot be ignored. There is no doubt, therefore, that the total economic saving would be very great.

I should like to put another point to the House as to the manner in which I consider the suggestion could be carried out without affecting the Chancellor's Budget. At present, rather more than 2,000,000 motor users pay something over £70,000,000 a year, or an average of £35 each. An increase of 100,000 in the number of motor vehicles on the roads would mean an increased payment of £3,500,000 per year. I believe I am correct in saying that during the past year the increase has been 136,000, which would bring in approximately £5,000,000 of extra revenue. I think, also, I am correct in saying that that revenue has not been allotted to the Exchequer, and, if Parliament decided that this extra revenue should be used for lighting the roads, it would be sufficient to continue to do so as long as the present rate of taxation on road vehicles was applied.

Another very vital matter that I wish to bring to the attention of the House is the provision of employment. If we spent £4,000,000 on lighting our roads, it is obvious that most of that money would be spent in wages. A sum of £4,000,000 would find wages for 28,000 men at something like £3 a week, so that certainly 20,000 men might anticipate obtaining employment by this scheme. Many of these would be unemployed miners, and it would provide work for unskilled and semi-skilled men. Consequently, there would be a reduction in the sum now paid for public assistance and unemployment benefit, and, while I could not give any figures as to what that would amount to, it cannot be negligible.

The type of lighting that seems necessary for such roads is, I believe, well known to Members of the House. We see it in most of our great cities. They use either gas or electricity. In Liverpool, I believe, they use a sodium lamp, and I am told that in the case of the new Mersey Tunnel some 7,000,000 vehicles have passed through without a single accident due to defective lighting. Croydon, I understand, is now lighting the new by-pass at Purley for 6,000 yards by a similar method. In Birmingham we have the electric discharge lamp, which is entirely satisfactory. I know that that light is capable of penetrating mist and fog. I myself, on occasions of dense fog have had the experience of being able to proceed quite normally until I got out of the range of this lighting. I remember that on one occasion it took me three hours to cover the next 10 miles, whereas I had previously been able to travel at 30 miles an hour. The hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. McGovern) last night mentioned his experience in going up the Great North Road, where he said that for some 60 miles there was mist and fog, and anyone who has driven under those conditions will realise the danger, anxiety and strain that it involves. This question specially affects lorry drivers, who drive every day of the week throughout the year. Consequently, I think that a system such as we are now able to supply in some places might well be used on the roads that carry the heavy traffic.

The roads which I have particularly in mind as being roads where adequate lighting is necessary are those which link up busy commercial towns, such as London and Southampton, Birmingham and London, Liverpool and Manchester, and so on; but it is equally important that in all our great cities the roads that connect the centre of the city with the suburbs, and usually have numbers of public vehicles running along them, should be properly lit, while the side roads that enter these highways should be lit at their corners, because those are places where accidents might be expected and where they often occur. I believe that, with such lighting as that, you could not fail to bring about an enormous decrease in accidents. I believe that if this social service is brought up to date, which can be done only if Parliament gives authority to the Ministry of Transport, it will be a great step forward.

I beg to second the Amendent.

My hon. Friend has put a strong case with great force, and I am sure I am expressing the feeling of the whole House when I say we are indebted to him for this opportunity for the discussion of this matter of prime public importance. The functions of street lighting may be conveniently discussed under four headings:—(1) the convenience and safety of road users; (2) police purposes; (3) convenience of residents; (4) special purposes in shopping areas and important urban centres. The convenience and safety of traffic should be the primary considerations in determining the form and character of the lighting of traffic routes—which term includes all roads which form the main approaches to or from important centres of population, or which pass through detached built-up areas and on which there is, or may be, appreciable pedestrian traffic. There are many factors that make for road safety or road danger, as the case may be. We have great highways, dual carriage-ways, cycle tracks, safety lanes and pedestrian crossings, and the whole country is grateful for the courage and imagination which have been displayed by the Minister in dealing with this important problem. Whatever has been done on these lines is all to the good, but it is not in itself complete. The danger of bad lighting remains, and, in. my view, in the interest of public safety, the question of street lighting demands immediate and far-reaching attention. Something like a third of the fatal accidents on the roads occur during the hours of darkness, and this is a tremendous proportion when one considers the decrease of traffic that must take place during those hours. The general inefficiency of the lighting of the roads is very largely to blame for that state of affairs. The existing system of lighting control of roads on which heavy traffic goes is chaotic. In the case of a very unfortunate disaster some time ago where two people were killed on a large main road within two or three miles of the centre of an important provincial town, it was found that one side of the road was lighted because it was administered by one authority and the other side, administered by another authority, had no lighting at all.

On which side of the road did the accident occur?

On the lighted side, largely owing to the fact that on the other side there was no light: there is the danger of "a. pool of darkness." The lighting system has not progressed anything like the other systems that govern our traffic. In the construction of important roads, the Minister of Transport can make a grant to local authorities and is able to use his influence towards securing standards of construction, and in the direction of unifying the standards that are employed by the authorities through whose territory the roads pass, but in the case of lighting there is no grant of any sort or kind that the Minister is empowered to make, and the local or urban authority concerned, can only deal with the portion of the road that passes through its own territory and adopts its own standard according to its own ideas of efficiency and its capacity for expenditure. The result, as one would expect, is that there is endless variation and a good deal of confusion throughout the country. It is true that the problem of road surfacing is yet unsolved, and it may very well be that you cannot divorce it from the question of road lighting. A strong committee was set up in 1934 to consider the question of street lighting from all angles, and I should like to know what action has been or will be taken on the interim report that was issued at the end of last year, and when the final report is likely to be issued.

One instance is given in the interim report where, on a stretch of 13 miles on a main arterial road on the outskirts of London, there are 27 varying standards of lighting, ranging from reasonable efficiency to lighting which is not real lighting at all. There is another case of a road popularly used as an exit from central London where there are five authorities controlling a stretch of four miles. The lamp standards on those four miles vary in height from 10 to 22 feet, the distance of space varies from 15 to 130 yards, some posts are upright and others are "staggered," some sections have lights on one side only, and the standard of light varies from splendid to shocking. That is a state of affairs which I hope the Minister will not hesitate to take authority to stop in the interests of the general public safety. There must be in a matter of this nature some reasonable uniformity. Frequent variations in lighting are bound to make for public danger. They cause fatigue, they cause misjudgment of distances, they cause embarrassment and they interfere with proper appreciation of spaces, speeds, and distances. They are things which could be avoided and should be avoided. Let me say one or two sentences on a matter to which I referred just now. It is extremely well summed up in paragraph 17 of the interim report, which reads as follows:

"Our own observations lead us to the opinion that the 'pools of darkness' resulting from uneven distribution of light on the road surface, more especially in the case of inadequately lighted roads, render it difficult for the motorist to judge distances and for other road users to estimate the speed of approaching vehicles, and that marked variation of lighting in any one thoroughfare may also cause uncertainty in the mind of the motorist regarding the necessity for using his headlights. On the whole we agree with the opinion which has been advanced by more than one witness that street lighting which may be described as patchy may be worse from the point of view of public safety than no lighting at all."

It is this very patchiness that some of us want to see ended at once. The House will remember that Section 23 of the Road Traffic Act, 1934, does give certain powers to county councils in connection with the lighting of roadways, but these powers are such that the county council cannot act as a lighting authority without the sanction of the existing authorities, and the existing authorities may be nothing greater than parish councils, which are entirely opposed to the control of the county council. The position is that although a county council is not prevented from proceeding with a scheme in a main arterial roadway, it is so placed that agreement to dual control is unlikely. Certainly it is not sufficient to bring about the street lighting that we want to see.

Recent road development has been swift. With the advance in transportation have come the wide arteries of today. Our road system has a function for which its local-thinking builders did not provide. An enormous amount of commercial long-haulage and tourist traffic uses the roads. Transport is hindered by a system unqualified for its service.

Public safety is placed in jeopardy by the present shocking system of lighting throughout our main roads. Upon any trunk road to-day, with the vast transport of all kinds, we see a hotchpotch of surfaces, of widths of lighting, of gradient and of foundation. I hope the Minister of Transport will tell the House that he is at last going to take action which will put an end to that state of affairs. The reasonable uniformity which is wanted may not be possible so long as a number of local authorities—I believe they number more than a thousand—are administering to the needs of the roads.

I appeal to the Minister to say whether he cannot establish some kind of central authority in the form of a national centralised highways board which will tackle the whole question of street lighting. I would like to see the roads of this country, where the public safety has not been sufficiently considered, flood-lighted from one end to another. I would like to see the Minister experiment at once on one road, say the road from here to Brighton, to light it with flood lights, to try the centre light and the side light. This is not the time to argue the respective merits of gas and electricity. We have made enormous strides in recent years in the generation and use of electricity, and it may provide the solution. On the other hand, it may be advisable to use both kinds of illuminant. But let us try with flood-lighting on the road, and in that way stop the present heavy toll of human life. The figures of road accidents are appalling. Whatever can be done to put an end to the present terrible tragedy of the roads should be done and done at once.

My hon. Friend has spoken about the cost. It would be a trifle in comparison with the greater safety of the public. If we go along any 100 miles of road we know that it is under the control of numerous authorities, and we see the lighting that is essential for safe transport and for the safety of the public using the road, neglected by almost every local authority in the country. Let us not delay with the mass lighting of our roadways. I beg the Minister to come to the conclusion that this is a grave and pressing problem, that there must be a centralised system of reasonably uniform street lighting that will give safety to the public, and that he will flood-light roadways from end to end.

This is a subject which, I should imagine, all Members of the House will agree to support. We are grateful to the hon. Member who has brought it forward. It is only on an occasion like this that we can get such a matter fully debated, and get an expression of opinion from the Minister in control. All legislation must first of all have some thought behind it. This House never enters lightly on any big change. There must first be full consideration of it and an expression of the opinion of the House. This is one of the questions that arrest the attention of all road users, which means in effect that every citizen is concerned with it. The figures which have been quoted to-day have startled me. I am not very good at statistics; I always leave some one else to quote them. The figures that have been read out have been amazing to me. The hon. Member who moved the Motion dealt with accidents in the three dark months between five and eight o'clock in comparison with the three light months between five and eight o'clock, and the vast difference proved that it must be lighting which is causing a great number of accidents.

I have in mind one stretch of road which I have mentioned in this House many times. It is the Liverpool to Manchester East Lancashire road, a new road. It is one of the most beautiful roads in the country. If any hon. Member who is in Lancashire will visit that road he will come away with a better impression of Lancashire than he has now. That road is in large measure not lit at all. On a portion of it at each end, the Manchester end and the Liverpool end, attempts have been made to light it, but we cannot get the remainder lighted for reasons which have been mentioned by the hon. Member, who stated that although a county council can advise it cannot force an urban council to bear its share of the cost of lighting. On this unlighted section of the road we have all kinds of urban authorities with a share in the road. They say that the cost of the lighting of their portion of the road would be too great.

I have put a question repeatedly to the Minister of Transport, asking him whether he would use his influence with the Lancashire County Council to get them to do something with this unlighted length of road, and his reply has been invariably to this effect: "I sympathise with the hon. Member. I will use my influence with the Lancashire County Council, but he must remember that I have no power to force them and can only advise them what they should do." They have done nothing. To my mind they are not a progressive county council, for they are composed largely of members who do not belong to my party. Consequently they do not see this matter in the light in which I see it, and the urge that has come from the Minister has had no effect up to now. In walking along this road in the dark hours it is amazing to see vehicles rushing up with big headlights on and then passing into darkness. There has been a large number of accidents on the road. In one place, on the borders of St. Helens, there was a serious accident, as a result of which St. Helens decided to put a roundabout there and to light it. But for miles there are stretches of road in darkness.

These things must arrest the attention of this House. Of all things in which we have made progress in recent years there is none in which we have made more progress than in lighting—from the rushlight to the candle light, then the gas light and now the electric light. In London, theatres and other places are lit up beautifully. Yet from London we pass out into the darkness of the long roads and we wonder why the authorities are not dealing with the matter. They ought to be under central guidance. Some kind of uniformity in the matter is essential. It is not right to have one part of a road badly lit and another well lit. This kind of thing cannot be allowed to go on. The last speaker said that he would like to see the flood lighting of a test road, and he mentioned the road from London to Brighton. I suggest that the Minister might use the East Lancashire road I have mentioned as a test road.

Try both, one for the north and one for the south.

I agree to that suggestion. The proposition might be taken up seriously. The Minister may tell us presently what he told us about the Forth Bridge, that the matter must be examined thoroughly. Before dealing with lighting as a whole the right hon. Gentleman might experiment with a test road, as has been suggested. There is a point which has not been mentioned so far. Improved lighting of the roads would provide useful work for the unemployed apart from being of value to the community, for it would ensure the greater safety of the citizens of the country. I welcome the proposal and I think that the House will be unanimous regarding it. When the House expresses unanimity no Government can stand idly by and do nothing.

I should not have risen at this moment in this Debate, in which I had no intention of taking part, had not the hon. Gentleman the Member for Leigh (Mr. Tinker) ended his remarks by saying, that he was sure that the House would welcome this Amendment. It, therefore, seems to me that this is the moment when there should be the strongest protest that one could make against the Amendment. [An HON. MEMBER: "Surely not."]. Yes, against the spending of £3,500,000 of valuable and very necessary money upon an object which I should put extremely low in the queue of objects deserving national expenditure. If we had satisfied all the claims of poverty, and of our defences, and all the major needs of the country, and had £3,500,000 to throw about, I should very reluctantly agree to its being wasted on elaborate systems of lighting decent country roads that many of us have learnt to know in the dark. What countryman has not experienced the special interests of night, and of being able to walk about and find his way in the dark? This was one of the interesting experiences of War time. Hon. Members who recollect War time will remember that London was unlighted when air raids were on and that you could at last see the shape of buildings outlined against the sky and you could once more realise that God, who made day and night, knew what he was doing. This mania for destroying nature and producing light where it is not needed and is extremely ugly is a mania against which I, personally, desire to protest.

What are the grounds for this object of strewing the country about with lights? Safety! I deny absolutely that light is a cause of safety for motorists. On the contrary, it is one of the great dangers. We have been given excellent examples that lighting is in fact an evil, and anybody who drives a motor knows that in the present inefficiently lit areas, you are far less safe than in the dark. If you drive at night, as I do sometimes, on a long country road, say the Great North Road, your danger points are not where there are no lights at all, but where you enter lighted areas, where there are widely spaced and inefficient lights and where the lighting of the motors themselves is masked by the effect of inefficient public lighting. I feel perfectly certain that, as between the present system of lighting and complete darkness, motoring would be safer in complete darkness. I am really certain of that, if the motor itself is a reasonably lighted vehicle and is being driven within the limit of safety appropropriate to its own lighting. I have been on very heavily occupied roads at night, when it has been completely dark —the Great North Road is an example—where there is much industrial traffic. The motors are themselves nowadays decently lighted. The anti-dazzle devices are reasonably effective, and they ought to be made more effective. In this instance, driving is as safe as your light will make it.

What will happen if you have this elaborate system of lighting? It simply means that people will drive rather faster. They will again go up to the limit of safety, and you will have increased accidents, just as you have had increased accidents upon the magnificent new roads on which it is easy to go 60 or 70 miles an hour. Yesterday I heard an hon. Member from the benches opposite accuse the Chancellor of the Exchequer of being an assassin, because he was not making every road a 60 or 70 miles an hour road. Everybody knows that it is just that improvement in road quality, without corresponding improvement in wisdom in driving, that has been the cause of increased accidents. Before the roads were improved—and I look back 30 years—driving was safer than it is now, simply because people could not attain modern speeds. Of course, the old roads would not have held the traffic of to-day, and the problem is an entirely different one, but merely from the point of view of safety, the modern devices of enabling cars to go excessive speeds, so far from producing safety, produce greater danger, and I prefer to assert with great confidence that wider lighting would not necessarily mean any increase in safety. The Amendment begins by saying:

"Having regard to the number of road accidents that occur after dark."

Do those accidents occur in the lighted areas or in the unlighted areas? Can the hon. Gentleman the Member for Yardley (Mr. Salt) give me the figures of accidents in those areas?