(by Private Notice) asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he can make any statement with regard to the explosions which took place in London this morning?

Yes, Sir. I am informed that at about 6 a.m. to-day serious explosions occurred at the tube stations at Tottenham Court Road and Leicester Square. I regret to say that two persons were seriously injured, and considerable damage was done. The explosions were apparently due to bombs with time fuses left in the cloakrooms overnight. Investigations actively pursued are being actively pursued.

I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."

"There was an almost unanimous opinion on the part of the witnesses who appeared before us that the one method of collection which demands control more than any other (except street collections) is that of door-to-door collections. The fraudulent enterprises which have been brought to our notice depend for the most part on these collections; it is clear that people often give the canvassers money merely to get rid of them, and in the view of the police witnesses their control would quickly cause these fraudulent charities' to die of starvation. It may be noted that street collections and door-to-door collections resemble each other in differing from appeals by post or advertisement in that the person appealed to cannot escape or ignore the request, but must give or refuse money on the spot."

"An outstanding feature of the bogus or fraudulent charity promoter is that he has little, if any, experience of the charitable or social work for which he institutes his collection. Another feature is his contempt for the law or for exposure in the public Press. The following example illustrates these two points. In 1932 a man named Frederick Booth with his wife started a society with the title 'The Destitute and Homeless Help Society.' Neither had any previous experience of charitable work. Booth had previously been employed as a waiter in a night club. The couple began by taking a derelict building, converting it into a hostel with about 12 wire bunks. They allowed homeless or destitute men to occupy these bunks for one night, afterwards extending their activities to the giving of a free breakfast to the men in the hostel. Collectors were appointed on a commission basis of 50 per cent. During the w hole period of its existence ii has published two statements of account. The first, in 1935, showed the net amount received as £1,722. This item did not include the 50 per cent. paid to collectors, so that the total amount received should have been recorded as £3,444."

There are industrial assurance companies which allow 50 per cent. commission.

There is no comparison between industrial assurance companies and organisations of this sort. In addition to the 50 per cent, that is retained by the party carrying on the collections, there are still further deductions before anything is given to charity. I said earlier in my remarks that the police themselves were pressing the Home Office to take some action, and a result of that was the Home Office committee which reported in 1927. I propose to quote a short part of the evidence which was given to the Joint Committee of both Houses, by the president of the Chief Constables' Association, Mr. J. Maxwell, who is chief constable of the City of Manchester. He said:

"We represent 121 chief constables of cities and boroughs in England and Wales, from whom inquiries have been made regarding the prevalence in their districts of house-to-house collections.… We strongly submit that legislation is necessary to deal with the present position "

I beg to second the Motion.

"The Incorporated Seamen and Boatmen's Friend Society and so-called branches."

Is the hon. and gallant Member dealing with the evidence or with the report of the Committee?

I am dealing with the evidence submitted to the joint Select Committee in the precis regarding this particular Society. I may say that I have ascertained why this particular Society was put forward in this way. The St. George's Fund for Sailors and the Seamen's Council desired this particular Society to join up with them, but the Society found it quite impossible to do that, particularly as they were given no representation on the committee and they were of course quite entitled to refuse to do so. It is significant that for over 40 years this Society appeared in the Register of Charities published by the Charity Organisation Society, and that it is only since it has refused to submit itself to these other organisations that efforts have been made quite improperly to cast aspersions on its bona fides.

Evidence was given before the Joint Select Committee that the amount received by the Incorporated Seamen and Boatmen's Friend Society was £7,924 and that the amount expended in charity was £500.

I do not know from what my hon. Friend is quoting, but I shall he happy to deal with it if he can refer me to it in the Minutes of Evidence. This particular society, however, is not a relief or benevolent society: it is a religious society. I have its constitution here, and it is quite incidental to its work that it gives relief to seamen. I do not wish to pursue the matter further, except to say that in my opinion quite unjust reflections were cast upon this society in the evidence, and I know of no reason why it should be classed as other than a perfectly bona fide and reputable organisation. There is another matter to which I want to refer. Hon. Members on this side of the House, and perhaps hon. Members opposite, have made inquiries as to what would be the position with regard to collections made from house to house by the Conservative, Liberal or Labour party from members of the respective parties. From the definition in Clause 9, it is clear that a collection, within the meaning of this Bill, must be an appeal to the public generally, and does not relate to collections from a restricted body of persons, such as the members of a particular society.

Would the Bill interfere in the following case? It has been the custom for generations for the Labour party to hold a May Day procession and for people with collecting boxes to walk along the street making a collection for the procession. At the present time, permission has to be obtained for that, but would this Bill stop the permission being given?

I think that what the hon. Member has referred to is something in the nature of a flag day. Permission has to be obtained from the police authorities at present, and would have to be obtained similarly in future. There is nothing in the Bill that would make any difference in that respect.

Would it be a charitable purpose? A charitable purpose is defined in the Bill as a charitable, benevolent or philanthropic purpose.

It may be that the Labour party or the Independent Labour party have charitable, benevolent or philanthopic purposes, but probably they are not charitable purposes within the meaning of the Bill, and hence the collections to which the hon. Member referred would not come under the Bill. However, if they did, they would be under no greater obligation than at present to obtain permission.

Would not the Bill stop them?

May I make this point clear? The point raised by the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) has no relation to the Bill. Such collections are now controlled under the 1916 Act, and would continue to be so controlled. This Bill relates only to house-to-house collections.

Thank you.

I do not want my hon. Friends to have any wrong impression. Collections such as those which have recently been made from house to house generally, for example, for the sending of foodships to Spain, would come under the Bill. I think it is right that it should be so. There should be no difficulty under the Bill in bona fide organisations, having charitable, benevolent or philanthropic purposes applying to the police, satisfying the police of the bona fides of the organisations, and obtaining the necessary permission. It is desirable that a tight hand should be kept on collections of this character so that those who contribute may give freely and with the knowledge that the money they give will be properly used. Therefore, I commend the Bill to the House as being an extremely useful piece of legislation which will be of great advantage in the future.

I wish, in the first place, to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton (Mr. Craven-Ellis) on having chosen this matter of House-to-House Collections as the subject for a Bill, and also upon the excellent speech with which he explained to the House the objects and provisions of the Bill. Like the hon. and gallant Member for South East Leeds (Major Milner), I had the privilege last Session of serving on the Joint Committee of both Houses which considered a Bill having similar purposes which had been introduced. That Bill was referred to the Joint Committee in order that evidence might be taken on the subject. The House is always influenced, as it ought to be, by the recommendations of a Committee of its Members or of the two Houses. Such Committees are composed of Members who are charged with ascertaining the facts of the matter concerned, which they investigate most carefully and impartially for the specific purpose of ascertaining the facts and recommending such legislative action as they deem to be of advantage to the country.

"Where an offence under this Act committed by a corporation is proved to have been committed with the consent or connivance of, or to be attributable to any neglect on the part of, any director, manager, secretary, or other officer of the corporation, he, as well as the corporation, shall be deemed to be guilty of that offence and shall be liable to be proceeded against and punished accordingly."

Everyone will agree that there is a good case for a Bill of this kind. Everyone with any experience of house to house collections in large or small towns realises that such collections should be more or less controlled. The object of the Bill is to prevent the swindling of people by bogus collections. I am not sure that the Bill as worded will do all that it sets out to do. The people at the head of these bogus associations have certainly got brains and when you try to close one door against them they open another. The Bill deals with collections not merely of money, but of goods. Suppose that a bogus charity collector, instead of calling from house to house for money, sends a circular setting out the charity and enclosing an envelope, the circular stating "If you want to contribute you can put your coin inside the envelope and someone will call for it a day or two later." Would that be regarded as a collection within the meaning of the Bill?

Surely that is "house to house."

But suppose that the circular is not left at all the houses in one street; suppose that the collector calls at a couple of houses in one street and then at a couple of houses in another street. The organisation may get out of the difficulty in that way. I agree that there is a good case for the Bill, but I wish sometimes that it would go even further than it does go. I wish also that we could remove in many cases the need for these house-to-house collections by bona fide charity organisations. Reference has been made to the National Lifeboat Institution, to which we all contribute. We find national money for the lighthouses, but rely upon charity to keep the lifeboats, and in case of shipwrecks we never even ask to whom the lifeboat belongs.

"Some time ago your name was sent to us as one who was willing for us to work our racing system in your favour at 5s. stakes. We are very pleased to inform you that up to date "—

"you are £3 15s. in credit, but as we cannot trace the 15s. registration fee from you, will you kindly send it on, and the cheque will be forwarded in due course."

"Any reader who happens to have a copy of a certain novelist's book and will turn to page 3 and find the following words, kindly communicate with the undersigned."

"Dear Sir, On going through my books I find that in September, 1934, you took from my shop, on approval, a pair of gold inlaid scissors, a present from Queen Victoria to a bridesmaid in 1837, price £8 10s. Kindly forward the money or the scissors by return of post."

I do not agree with the hon. Member for Normanton (Mr. T. Smith) about this Bill, and I would say that most of his statements about the Bill had no relationship whatever to the Bill. The question of people sending out circulars has no relationship to door-to-door collections. Frankly, I do not like the Bill. As far as I can see, the Bill would apply to Scotland, and it is the Scottish position that I want to say a word or two about. I may not know other districts, but I think I know my own district, and there for a large number of years we have had a system, when a chap has died, of running round from door to door collecting pennies and halfpennies and sixpences with which to bury him. Under this Bill, that sort of thing would be stopped. I am told that they could go to the police authorities for permission, but these poor folk will not go to the police to ask permission. They do not do this collecting as a wrong, and it is not looked upon as a wrong. Somebody says, "John Thomas so and so has died, and we are making a collection to bury him." Or a man is to be put out of his house, threatened with eviction, for arrears of rent. There is no time to go to the police authorities, so they go scampering about to neighbours and collect a few pounds to clear the rent, and they clear it. This Bill would stop them doing that. It is a charitable purpose, and these folk have no time to go to the police authorities.

This Bill raises an issue which is of great interest and importance for us all. That is the extent to which a man is entitled to expect privacy in his own home. I often think that this country would be a much pleasanter place to live in for all of us if no one was allowed to go to a private dwelling-house except at the request, expressed or implied, of someone who lives in the house, or in pursuit of some lawful duty. At the present time householders are plagued by an immense number of callers, and I fear an increasing number, who go to sell something or to take an order for something or to take a collection for some purpose. The nuisance is a very real one in the case of those people who can afford to pay someone else to answer the door, but it is a much greater nuisance in the case of those who have no one of that kind to help them. A woman, for example, who is engaged in doing all the work of her home and possibly looking after young children as well, is constantly interrupted in her work by people coming to the door, who are not asked to come, and whom in many cases she has the greatest difficulty in getting rid of.

In supporting the Bill which my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton (Mr. Craven-Ellis) has brought forward, I should like to say that I think we ought to be very grateful to him for introducing it. It is a Bill which is very badly wanted to deal with evils and abuses which have been springing up all over the country, and I hope that it will have the unanimous support of everyone in the House, and will be given the help of the Government. We all of us know of these door-to-door collectors, and some really bad cases have been instanced this morning of collectors extracting money for so-called charitable purposes. To the deserving charity, which is properly organised and under which the greater proportion of the money collected really benefits the charity, no one grudges a penny, and such charities will be helped by the Bill, I believe, because they will be relieved of unworthy competitors. But the difficulty to-day is that the householder who receives calls from these collectors cannot readily ascertain whether the charity is a genuine one or not. It may be that it is a charity to serve a very good purpose but is nevertheless run on hopelessly inefficient lines, with an incompetent organisation, and the majority of the money collected may be absorbed by expenses instead of going towards the actual charity.

Before making one or two criticisms of the Bill I would like to make a general observation. Very often we discuss in this House questions which bring out very clearly the nature of the unjust and undesirable system of society under which we live. Nothing could more emphasise that nature than the discussion which is now taking place. Masses of people are forced into a position in which they have to depend upon charity. That should he utterly impossible in any sane or just system of society. Not only are they left to the tender mercies of charity, but a whole gang of harpies—according to evidence from hon. Members on the other side, supporters of the system—take advantage of their helplessness and poverty in order to make money for themselves. What sort of system is it that makes such things possible? Nobody could justify it. Is it not significant—and I am prepared to challenge anyone on this matter—that the only country in the world where there is no need for collections for charity is that in which the means of life are common property and not private property, that is, in the Soviet Union. There is no such thing there as a collection for charity or anybody dependent upon charity. I challenge any representative of this system upon that point. As soon as the means of life are transformed from private to common property, there can be no possibility of or need for charity. Reference has been made to the fact that lifeboats and voluntary hospitals have to depend for maintenance upon charity. Is that not a ghastly commentary upon the system in existence in this country, and should we not recognise those services as national responsibilities and play our part in maintaining them?

Street collections are already regulated by previous Acts of Parliament.

Just be kind enough to wait a moment. I said that that was the wrong answer. Very few door-to-door collections do not carry with them a street collection and very few street collections do not carry along with them a door-to-door collection. Street collectors collect also at the doors as they go along the streets. The difference is that the Bill refers to collections for charitable purposes. The street collections to which we are referring are generally conducted for political purposes, and there is a regulation in connection with them. The Bill relates to charitable collections. It is quite possible that new powers given to the police authorities as proposed in the Bill would be used to limit, handicap or even prevent altogether collections for quite legitimate political purposes.

Like some of those who have already spoken, I had the honour to serve on the Joint. Committee, and I was astounded by some of the evidence that came before us. We had abundant evidence to show that this evil has been increasing, and increasing rapidly, especially since the passing of the Act relating to street collections. Several actual instances have been mentioned. I can think of one where an individual, running what one can only call a fraudulent charity, is known to be making between £3,000 and £4,000 a year. We are told that he has been repeatedly exposed in the newspapers, but he snaps his fingers at thorn, because there are no legal measures that can be taken against him. It is almost literally true to say that, in sonic of the cases which were brought before us in evidence, where £1 was collected, 4½d. found its way to the charity. It is bad enough that clever rogues should be able to exploit the weaknesses of human nature; instances of that will occur to anyone; but it is much more detestable, to my mind, that these same rogues should be able to exploit for their own gain one of the most honourable feelings of our nature, the feeling of sympathy for wretched or suffering humanity.

I am sorry that the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) appears about to leave the Chamber, for I was going to tell him in a friendly way that with much eloquence he blew up an enormous bubble which unfortunately I have to prick in a sentence or two. By the time he had finished his speech, I was at a loss to understand whether he was in favour of the Bill or against it, but finally I came to the conclusion that he was partly in favour of it and partly against it. Probably he does not know that, so far from this being a deep-laid scheme on the part of the police to try to get further power, exactly the opposite is the case. I also had the honour of serving as a Member of the Joint Select Committee. Among the witnesses we heard were chief constables and police officials from all over the country, and the principal difficulty we had was that the police officials did not want any additional power.

I know of case after case in which the police do not want additional power, but, where they get additional power, they use it. The -Important thing about which I am concerned is not whether particular police officers want more power or not, but the fact that, if they get the power, they use it.

I am afraid my hon. Friend allows his zeal to outrun his discretion. I am not making this point in any spirit of hostility to him. Surely we are all open to be corrected, and, if he has gone off on a wrong line, he ought to be thankful to me for pointing it out to him. This Bill has been drafted by the Association of Municipal Corporations, and the principal members of the Association of Municipal Corporations are Labour-controlled councils. They have been very fortunate in getting the hon. Member for Southampton (Mr. Craven-Ellis) to introduce their Bill for them. It was a question of the luck of the Ballot. If I had been fortunate in the Ballot, I should have introduced the Bill, because my local authority is a member of the Association of Municipal Corporations. We have protested again and again that some legislation of this kind was required, because poor people in our district are being defrauded week by week by people who go from door to door making these collections. Therefore, it is really some of the Labour-controlled councils throughout the country that have been instrumental in getting the Bill as far as we have got it to-day. The hon. Member for West Fife ought for his own good to know that he is barking up the wrong tree when he suggests that this is a deep-laid plot on the part of some capitalist organisation to get more power for the police. I am with him in most cases, but this time I am sorry to say his facts do not agree with the case he has built up.

Will the hon. Member answer this question: Does this Bill give more power to the police?

The Bill gives power to the police—

More power?

If the hon. Member lived in my part of London, he would know that, when a question is asked, it is usually considered courteous to wait for the answer. The answer to his question is as follows. I have here a list of organisations, which includes one that collected for Christmas toys for the unemployed. It collected over £1,000, and spent 6s. 8d. in Christmas toys for the unemployed; and the police authorities reported that they were unable to take any proceedings against anybody in connection with it, because they had actually given toys to the unemployed, even though they spent only 6s. 8d. on those toys out of the hundreds of pounds they collected. If my hon. Friend would like me to make him a present of the point as to whether the Bill will enable the police to arrest and take proceedings against these people, I would say that it will, and I am very glad that it will. I have here a list of over 100 organisations, some of them run by dressing up their collectors as clergymen, some collecting enormous amounts of money, and not only money, but waste material, by going from door to door, leaving bags, and having them filled.

I rise to express my wholehearted agreement with this Bill that has been introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton (Mr. Craven-Ellis). This is a subject in which I have taken great interest; indeed,- I saw a former Home Secretary about it some years ago, and told him a few of the abuses that were within my own knowledge. Let me mention a few cases to the House. My first experience of this sort of thing was at my home in Cheshire, where I was told that there were three clergymen to see me. One of them clearly purported to be a clergyman of the Church of England, and the other two wore what I might call semi-clerical garb; you could imagine their being lay preachers or something of the sort. They greeted me effusively, and handed me a book about the organisation for which they were collecting. It was an organisation with offices in Birmingham, and it was called "The Birmingham District Social Service League." In my bones, I felt suspicious of them from the outset. I said, "You come rather far afield from Birmingham." "Oh," said the first of the men, "the whole country is our field, Mr. Radford." I said, "I am connected with two charities in Manchester, and I will just make a few inquiries with regard to your organisation. If, when I have done so, I feel that it is a deserving one, I will take proper action." He took a quick glance at his colleagues, and said, "Thank you; we will not trouble you further." They went out, and I heard a car starting. I went to the gate, and saw them disappearing in a cloud of dust in the direction of Macclesfield. There was no power to take any action against them, but no doubt they thought that if inquiries were made it would be uncomfortable for them.

I will not weary the House with further examples because I have been in touch with similar organisations to those mentioned by the hon. Member for Rushholme (Mr. Radford). I rise merely to protest against the attack made by the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) on the police. I do not want it to be thought that Members on this side of the House do not desire the police to have adequate powers. We do not want to fall foul of the police. I had occasion, as had the hon. Member for Rushholme in his case, to interview our Chief Constable to see what could be done to destroy the pests referred to. There was an office exactly as he described it. The collectors took 50 per cent. of all that they collected in our district. I took the trouble to try and track them down to their London headquarters. I do not know whether the hon. Member did that or not. However, I could not find anybody, but I had a conversation on the telephone and inquired about their president, a titled gentleman.

I would like to congratulate the Mover and Seconder on bringing forward this Bill to-day, and to draw attention to the very great care and industry with which the Joint Select Committee of both Houses went into this subject, because their investigations have really been essential to the production of the Bill. Before I come to the actual details of the Bill, I should like to make one general observation. While we have been having a very useful discussion to-day, leading, as I hope, to a practical outcome, there is a danger that our attention may necessarily be too much concentrated to-day upon the abuses of the charitable system. It would be a very great pity if, as might be possible if some corrective were not applied, people outside quite wrongly got the impression that British charity was a mediocre system which was riddled with abuses, whereas, of course, quite the contrary is the case.

Does the Under-Secretary tell us that no other country compares with our charitable system, and that we raise considerably more than any other country?

No. That was not what I wished to convey. What I wished to convey was that, taking into account the amount raised and the actual system, we have, in my view, the finest charitable system in the world. Obviously, as regards the United States, from the view of the amounts raised, we cannot compete with them; but that must be so as regards a country with three times our population.

Does the Clause deal also with hospitals?

I think it includes hospitals. Of course, the sole object of the provisions is to secure a watertight arrangement which will cause the minimum of incon- venience, and I doubt very much whether they will need much amendment in Committee.

That can be multiplied by thousands.

I agree, and it is a beautiful example of a simple, healthy charity. But the problem with regard to these charities is this. No one desires to interfere with a simple and informal collection like that. Our only desire is to have some power to keep out fraudulent collections.

It is true that there are thousands of collections of the type the Under-Secretary has mentioned, but is it not largely due to the fact that in this country we have never had proper workmen's compensation? In some of our Dominions a collection for such things is not necessary.

I do not want to be drawn into that controversy, and I will only say that one of the healthy features of the British charitable system is that it is often the pioneer of certain forms of charity and social work which are afterwards taken up by the authorities. I think the hon. Member will also agree that whatever may be the development and improvement in our social provisions, there will never be a time when there will not be room for the true spirit of charity. The provisions of the Bill are designed to deal with a problem which we all want to solve, and I must tell the House that it is a difficult problem, because you cannot deal with it by the ordinary statutory method of a definition. It is almost impossible to find a definition sufficiently sensitive to deal with all the variations which you want to allow and which will prevent the abuses you want to prevent.

Is it not a fact that the consideration of the police would not be given to the object of the collection and the nature of the charity but to the character of the person carrying out the collection?

In commonsense language, I think that is exactly the implication.

May I give the hon. Gentleman a case as things are now, without these further powers? The magistrates agree to a door-to-door collection on behalf of Spain, and then, in the middle of the collection, the police, having discovered some regulation—I do not know what it is—send out police officers to stop the collection. Is that what the hon. Gentleman calls taking a nice, fair and sensible view of the question? If these further powers are given, what will happen?

The hon. Gentleman said that the police would be concerned, in deciding whether or not to give a licence not with the object for which the money was being collected, but with the good faith of the persons organising and carrying out the collection. Is there anything in the Bill to limit the police powers in that direction, and if not, would it be possible to introduce such a limitation?

With regard to the remarks of the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher), I take it he is describing something that has happened. I do not know anything about the facts or the details of the case he has mentioned, and I cannot understand under what powers action was taken, because at present there are no powers to deal with house-to-house collections. It is precisely because it was thought necessary that there should be such powers, that this Bill is before us to-day. If the hon. Member for West Fife has any complaint with regard to the action of the police, perhaps he will let me have the details, and I will go into the case and send him a reply. With regard to the point raised by the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Silverman) I quite appreciate the object he has in mind. The relevance of his observation is—as I was about to say when he interrupted me—that this Bill has been, even for Parliamentary counsel, very difficult to draft, largely for the reason mentioned by the hon. Member for Nor- manton (Mr. T. Smith), that the people with whom we are dealing are clever people. Therefore, I would not like to trust myself to give any detailed answer on the point which the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne has made, but I give him the assurance that we are very willing to look into the point between now and the Committee stage, and if he or any other Member takes an interest in the matter in the Committee, it can be gone into further. In this matter, nobody wants the police to have more powers than are necessary for the discharge of an essential duty.