asked the Minister of Labour the number of persons that have been placed in employment by Government schemes in Durham and South Wales, respectively, since 1932?

I assume the hon. Member has in mind the areas of Durham and Tyneside and South Wales, now classified as Special Areas. In addition to the benefits which have accrued to these areas from the Government's general industrial policy, the Government have taken special steps not only by the placing of factories and contracts in the Special Areas, but also through the Special Commissioner to attract new industries to the areas and to rehabilitate the social services. Statistics are not available as to the number of persons that have been placed in employment by these schemes, but it is estimated that in April of this year the number of insured persons in employment in both areas had increased by about 30 per cent. as compared with the corresponding date in 1932.

Do these figures take into account the number who have found employment under trading schemes?

Certainly.

asked the Minister of Labour whether the allowance paid to an unemployed parent on behalf of a child by the Unemployment Assistance Board is paid to the local education authority when such child is sent to an approved school and the parent no longer receives such maintenance though remaining unemployed?

The Board has no power to pay any part of an allowance to an education authority.

Does not the Minister think it would be unfair to a local education authority to be deprived of an allowance which has previously been paid to a parent when the authority is called upon to foot the whole of the bill for the upkeep and maintenance of the child?

Perhaps the hon. Member will send me the case he has in mind and I will look into it.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that officers of the Unemployment Assistance Board, in determining the amount of assistance to which an applicant is entitled, are taking into account widows' pensions where the widow, not being related to the applicant, is acting as housekeeper to his family; and under what provision or regulation such a calculation is authorised?

I am informed by the Board that this normal practice is to regard a widow's pension belonging to a member of an applicant's household as appropriated exclusively to her own needs. If, however, the hon. Member has a particular case in mind and cares to send me the details I will have inquiries made.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, assuming that calculations are being made in the way I have indicated, he would regard that as an irregularity, and if so, will he make that known to the officials?

I should like to look into the matter. There has been no general difficulty or trouble about this matter.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that of the free meals provided to school children by the Liverpool Education Committee approximately 51 per cent. are supplied to families dependent upon unemployment assistance, and 10 per cent. upon unemployment insurance benefit; and as this throws an undue burden upon the Liverpool ratepayers in maintaining persons classified as able-bodied, the responsibility of the National Exchequer, will he consider increasing the allowances and benefits of those concerned to a point that they will not need to apply for free meals, thus lessening the burden borne by Liverpool ratepayers in this respect?

Any increase in the rates of benefit or of unemployment allowances are matters for the Statutory Committee and the Unemployment Assistance Board respectively. Since, however, free meals are given to school children by education authorities under statutory powers which provide for such meals being given on medical or educational grounds to children unable to take full advantage of the education provided for them, I cannot agree that the fact that children, whose parents are drawing unemployment benefit or unemployment allowances, participate in free meals so provided is in itself an indication that the rates of benefit or allowances call for revision.

Does the Minister appreciate the fact that these families who are in receipt of unemployment assistance have to go through the means test; that the allowances which are paid to them are supposed to be in accordance with their need and that it is clearly shown that 50 per cent. of these families do not get adequate allowances?

I have already said that I do not accept that. There are other factors to be taken into consideration.

asked the Minister of Labour how many estates have been purchased for land settlement through the Special Areas Fund; the number of holdings ready for occupation by settlers; the number occupied, and of the latter those held by persons still dependent on the Unemployment Assistance Board?

Twenty-five estates have been purchased from the Special Areas Fund for land settlement in England and Wales. Five are held by the Welsh Land Settlement Society (four for co-operative farming and one partly for small holdings and partly for co-operative farming) and the remainder are held by the Land Settlement Association. In addition, assistance is being given towards the cost of settlement on 13 estates which have been acquired by other means. I propose to circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT the other information desired by the hon. Member.

Following is the information:

asked the Minister of Labour how many men are on the King's Roll and registered as unemployed at the Walthamstow Employment Exchange?

On 3rd April, 1939, 65 disabled ex-service men were registered at the Leyton and Walthamstow Employment Exchange as unemployed.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in Walthamstow many war equipment contracts are being carried out, and will he make an effort to get the contractors to employ a reasonable percentage of these men?

I have made inquiries and I find that four local authorities employ 108 ex-service men and 113 firms employ 616 men.

Is not that the ordinary percentage which they are compelled to employ to be on the Roll, and will the right hon. Gentleman make a special effort to get a larger percentage of these men employed?

We are constantly doing that.

asked the Minister of Labour how many men are on the King's Roll in England and Wales, and are now unemployed; and will he consider making it a condition that those receiving Government contracts for war equipment shall employ a percentage of these men sufficiently high to absorb those now unemployed?

On 3rd April last the number of disabled ex-Service men registered at Employment Exchanges in England and Wales as unemployed was 25,481. As regards the second part of the question, the hon. Member will be aware that, save in exceptional circum- stances, only firms on the King's Roll may tender for Government Contracts. As the local King's Roll committees are always on the look-out to increase the number of disabled ex-Service men employed by particular firms in the light of the circumstances of each case, I do not think any useful purpose would be served by trying to lay down a general rule such as the hon. Member suggests.

Does the right hon. Gentleman not think it is a pretty disgraceful thing that 25,000 people of this class can be out of work when we are spending hundreds of millions of pounds on war work?

I do not agree with that. Of course if you take the total number of men employed the percentage would be shown to be very small.

Is it not the case that many of these men are unemployed through premature old age due to War service, and will the right hon. Gentleman not take some steps, in conjunction with the Minister of Pensions, to see that these men receive reasonable consideration?

That has been the policy of successive Governments since the War. Some of these men are able to work in ordinary industrial conditions, others are fit only for light work, and there are others who are unable to work owing to their bad disability.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is now in a position to announce the Government's proposals for assisting those distressed areas not covered by the existing Special Areas Acts?

I regret that I am not yet in a position to make an announcement.

In view of the fact that there has been a delay of many months, and that the session is rapidly drawing to a close, may we have an assurance that legislation will be brought forward this Session?

That assurance has been given more than once.

Will the right hon. Gentleman repeat it now?

asked the Minister of Labour how many men and boys were registered as unemployed in the shipbuilding and ship-repairing trades on Merseyside on 31st December last; and how such figures compare with 31st December, 1937?

At 12th December, 1938, 4,678 insured men, aged 18–64, and 145 insured boys, aged 14–17, in the shipbuilding and ship-repairing industry classification were recorded as unemployed at Employment Exchanges in the Merseyside area. The corresponding figures for 13th December, 1937, were 4,443 men and 154 boys.

Can the Minister explain how it is that there is not a more apparent reduction in the number of unemployed, having in mind the work on rearmament, equipment of the Navy, and so on?

I could not do that at Question Time.

asked the Minister of Labour the number of seagoing men and women of all grades who were registered at Merseyside Employment Exchanges as unemployed on the 31st December last, and the corresponding figure for 31st December, 1937?

The available figures relate to wholly unemployed persons, aged 18 years and upwards, registered at Employment Exchanges as applicants for work as members of ships' crews (excluding fishing vessels) or as boatmen on tidal waters. The figures desired for Merseyside Employment Exchanges are 10,575 men and 197 women at 5th December, 1938, and 9,725 men and 179 women at 6th December, 1937.

Can the Minister explain why, in view of the rearmament programme and general activities in connection with it, there should have been more unemployed at the end of 1938 than at the end of 1937?

The hon. Member will understand that that is why we are taking action with regard to the shipping industry.

Is it not a fact that there has been a large reduction in unemployment in shipbuilding centres during the last few weeks?

That has not been equally spread, and the Merseyside is in a special position.

Is it not equally true that owing to the activities of National Shipbuilding Security, Limited, there has been a decrease in the number of places where ships are built?

asked the Minister of Labour the number of claims for insurance benefit or unemployment allowance that were considered by the courts of referees in Great Britain for the 12 months ended the last convenient date; giving particulars of how many were granted and/or disallowed?

During the 12 months ended April, 1939, 491,577 claims for insurance benefit were considered by courts of referees in Great Britain, of which 123,102 were allowed and 368,475 were disallowed. In addition 8,203 claims for dependant's benefit were considered, of which 1,876 were allowed and 6,327 were disallowed. The hon. Member will, of course, recollect that appeals in connection with unemployment assistance allowances are dealt with not by courts of referees but by separate tribunals constituted under the Unemployment Assistance Act.

Are there any circumstances in which, when these cases are disallowed, the claimant has a right to appeal to the Minister?

There is no appeal to the Minister, but of course, there is the right to appeal to the umpire.

In view of the fact that only one in four of the claims are successful, does not this show that the tribunal is hardly the most sympathetic body to consider claims of hardship under the Military Training Bill?

That is a most unfair conclusion to draw. If one wishes to draw a fair conclusion from these facts, one must take into consideration this proportion as against the total number of claims allowed without an appeal to the referees.

asked the Minister of Labour to what extent the firm of Bondor, who are makers of silk stockings, and who are erecting a factory at Dowlais, South Wales, are being assisted either by the Special Areas Commissioner or the Nuffield Trust; and what steps are to be taken to ensure that trade union conditions will be observed in this factory when it commences production at the end of August?

A factory is being erected at Dowlais by the South Wales, and Monmouthshire Trading Estates Company, for Dowlais Hosiery Mills, Limited, which appears to be the firm to which the hon. Member refers. Assistance is being afforded to this company under the Special Areas (Amendment) Act, 1937, but it would be contrary to practice to give details of such assistance and I am not in a position to give information about the Nuffield Trust. In reply to the last part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the answers given to the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Mathers) on 1st December, 1938, and the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) on 6th March, 1939. In the present case I am informed that the employers have agreed with the appropriate trade union to pay full union rates as soon as the personnel have been trained.

Is it not always guaranteed, if any public money is advanced, that the Fair Wages Clause is observed?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the conditions which they are prepared to observe mean that they are not prepared to pay trade union rates until four years after beginning production?

If the hon. Member will look at the answer, he will see that I made full inquiries.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consider making it a condition of such grants in future that the manufacturers shall produce only stockings that will not ladder, and is he aware that such a process is available and that the manufacturers will not allow it to be-exploited?

I am not aware of that.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he will arrange to admit volunteers under 20 or over 21 years of age to training courses of a civil character for work of national importance on terms similar to those proposed for men who enter such a course in lieu of compulsory military training?

The various training schemes of the Ministry are already available, subject to certain conditions, to unemployed persons of this age. I am not aware of any ground for extending these facilities as suggested.

May I take it that the Minister will not close the door to any further development of his own policy of voluntary training schemes?

I shall do all I can to increase the instructional work of the Ministry.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he will take steps to ensure that the recruitment of labour for the new ordnance factories is made through the Employment Exchanges; and whether he will undertake to see that preference is given to workmen who have been unemployed for a long period?

As regards the first part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Widnes (Mr. Pilkington) on 11th May. As regards the second part, I can assure the hon. Member that Employment Exchanges will continue to give, as they are giving, every consideration to the claims of suitable applicants who have been long unemployed.

The right hon. Gentleman has referred to a reply to a previous question. Can he say what is the effect of that reply?

I said that this particular point was under active consideration.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that A. H. Gleave was dismissed from his employment by R. Fulding and Son, builders, of Blackpool, after the manager of the firm had inquired as to his attitude to military training; whether he is aware that H. Leggatt, of Leyton, was informed at the employment exchange that he was liable to suspension of benefit because he had refused, on conscientious grounds, an offer of work as an engineer at Woolwich Arsenal; what action he is taking to see that such men receive unemployment benefit, and are not penalised twice because of their convictions; and whether he will take steps to make it clear that the growing practice of victimisation and persecution by employers is not in the best interests of this country?

I will make inquiry into these cases so far as regards any action alleged to have been taken by my Department. If a claim to unemployment benefit is made the hon. Member knows that it will be decided by the statutory authorities and is not under my control. As regards the last part of the question, I have had one or two letters on this subject, and I am looking into them.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the practice of victimising employés for their conscientious convictions is growing, and, in view of the fact that very strong opinions upon this subject are by no means confined to this quarter of the House, will he make a public statement to the effect that this persecution should stop?

I am sure that it would not be the desire of the country that any such cases should happen.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that employers are dispensing with the services of young men approaching the age of 20; and what action he proposes to take to safeguard the employment of these young persons and their future prospects in life in such cases?

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that evidence is accumulating daily of youths approaching the age of 20 being discharged from their employment; and whether the action proposed to be taken to prevent or penalise evasion of the responsibilities thrown upon employers under the Military Training Bill will be retrospective in character?

I have had a few letters alleging that employers have dispensed with the services of young men approaching the age of 20 on account of their obligation to undergo military training, but I have no ground for supposing that these are other than isolated cases. There are powers under the Military Training Bill to enable me to make regulations restraining employers from terminating the employment of their employés in such circumstances, and I shall not hesitate to use these powers in any way that seems likely to be most effective. Any such regulations would take effect from the date on which they are made.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, in addition to the letters which he has received, many hon. Members have also received letters which indicate that these cases are more widespread than the right hon. Gentleman has suggested? As to the regulations, may I ask whether he intends to issue the regulations he has in mind immediately so as to restrain employers who have taken action, and, if not, what is to be done in the case of those men who have already been dismissed?

I cannot make the regulations retrospective, or issue them until the Bill becomes an Act, which is not until to-morrow.

Did not the Parliamentary Secretary in the Committee stage say that the regulations would be retrospective in so far as dealing with employers who sought to evade their responsibilities was concerned?

I think the hon. Member is mistaken. He is recalling a statement made on another issue.

Inasmuch as the regulations have been drafted with a view to being enacted to-morrow, will the right hon. Gentleman lay the regulations to-night so that we may see them?

I have not said that they are in draft. I have said that I will produce them as soon as I can directly the Bill becomes an Act to-morrow.

Are they in draft or not?

Not at the moment.

Pending the issue of the regulations what are those persons to do who claim to have been dismissed? Should they communicate with the right hon. Gentleman and state their case? There are many who would like to know.

I should like to know the cases to which the two hon. Members are referring.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, although these allegations are fairly general, there is a great difficulty in obtaining confirmatory details as to whether the allegations are genuine or not?

It is exactly that which made me ask for particulars. The House will understand that when I produce the regulations I want them to be effective to deal with the actual cases which have arisen.

If the right hon. Gentleman receives information of the kind for which he has asked, will he promise to deal with the cases immediately and make full inquiry?

Certainly, and without any delay.

How can employers comply with regulations if they do not see them? Why does not the right hon. Gentleman produce them at once?

The right hon. Gentleman would be the first to complain if I produced regulations before I am authorised to make them.

Has the right hon. Gentleman read the letter I sent him, and will he verify the facts?

asked the Minister of Labour whether he will make arrangements to prevent men being called up for military training when they have arranged to travel overseas for commercial purposes prior to the passing of the Act until their return to this country?

If cases of this kind involve hardship there is provision under the Military Training Bill for application to be made to a hardship committee for postponement of the liability to be called up for military training.

asked the Minister of Labour what steps he proposes to take to deal with the cases of men who, when undertaking a course at a Ministry of Labour training centre, are required either to interrupt their course of training in order to carry out Militia service or are called up for Militia service after completing their training course without being able meanwhile to secure employment?

Any man who is called up during a course of Ministry of Labour training will be allowed to complete his course at the end of his military training, and an extension of the Ministry of Labour training will be given where this appears necessary, owing to the break. Arrangements will also be made for men called up for military training shortly after completing their course at a training centre to be given a refresher course.

asked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of the hardship which would ensue upon small farmers dependent on family help if their sons are called to the Colours next month, he will postpone the date until October, so that sons of military age could assist in hay-time and harvest?

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is in a position to state what arrangements he proposes to make under the Military Training Bill for the calling up during the off-season of persons engaged in seasonal industries; and whether he will have special regard to the position of agriculture?

In the early stages of the military training scheme, it will not be possible, save in a small number of well defined cases, to depart from the procedure of calling up men according to age. It has, however, been decided to postpone until November the calling up of agricultural workers, men engaged in the fishing industry, and anthracite miners. Men in these industries will in general receive their calling up notices on or about 1st November, to report to their units a fortnight later. In the first group to be called up in July miners, other than anthracite miners, will be called up in the ordinary proportion, but it is not proposed to call up any more miners until next March. I should add that the arrangements must necessarily be subject to any postponements in individual cases on grounds of hardship.

Are we to understand from the reply that should any agricultural labourer, or anyone in the other categories specified, be called upon by mistake, he will be permitted to appeal for a postponement of the date?

The right of appeal to the hardship committee is quite unlimited. This is a general arrangement which is thought to be common sense in the case of these particular industries.

Is this a decision of the Ministry of Labour? It has nothing to do with the hardship committee?

It has nothing to do with the hardship committee. The hardship committee comes into operation only on appeals by the individuals concerned.

Is it in the power of the Ministry of Labour to exempt widows' sons and those having one-man businesses?

This is not an exemption, but a postponement.

In view of the fact that in the holiday resorts there are people who have better opportunities of getting employment in the summer than in the winter, will the right hon. Gentleman arrange that these people should be called up in the winter, or at any rate allow them to state their case?

That is the reason the Bill is drawn in the way it is.

Did I understand the right hon. Gentleman to say that the calling up of miners was to be postponed until March?

That refers to the anthracite section. Non-anthracite miners will be called up in July, and after that, the official calling up will take place in March.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he has any further statement to make on the subject of contractual obligations incurred by men who are called up for training under the Military Training Bill?

I assume that the hon. Member refers to the power in the Military Training Bill to make provision by Order in Council for consequential matters that may arise as a result of the passing of the Bill. These matters are receiving urgent consideration and the draft Order in Council, which will require the approval of Parliament will be laid before the House as soon as possible after it resumes. It is proposed that the arrangements so approved should be summarised in an explanatory leaflet which will be available to all concerned.

Do I understand that the right hon. Gentleman stands by the statement which he made during the Committee stage of the Bill, namely, that when the Orders in Council are produced the Government will accept contractual obligations incurred by these men; and how soon does he expect the regulations to be presented?

I shall present them at the earliest possible moment. It is, obviously, in the interest of all concerned that the Government's view in draft should be laid before the House, that the House should discuss it and that the men should know it.

How far does the right hon. Gentleman stand by the statements which he made during the consideration of the Bill?

I stand by all the statements which I made.

asked the Prime Minister whether he has considered a resolution from the Cyde apprentices protesting against conscription, demanding an immediate alliance with the Soviet Union and the granting of the youth charter; and what answer he proposes to return to these demands?

I understand that a communication in the sense of the hon. Member's question, purporting to represent 15,000 Clyde apprentices, has been received at 10, Downing Street. The communication was not framed in such terms as to admit of a reasoned reply.

Is the Minister aware of the character of the demands in the Youth Charter, and will he be prepared to give some consideration to them in order to make the conditions generally better for the youths who are employed in industry?

Does the Minister think that the Military Training Bill is framed in such a way as to bring about reasonable service from these youths?

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the Scottish Trades Union Congress has declared its intention of opposing conscription by all means in its power; that it has called on all its representatives to withdraw from National Service committees; and, in view of the opposition this represents, will he consider excluding Scotland from the operations of the conscription Bill?

The Prime Minister is aware of the resolution adopted by the Scottish Trades Union Congress before the Military Training Bill was introduced, but he cannot regard it as being of greater weight than the considered decision of this House with regard to the inclusion of Scotland in the Military Training Bill.

Is the Minister not aware that this resolution was passed last Sunday, and is he of opinion that the Military Training Bill was introduced since last Sunday? May I further ask whether he is not aware that the Scottish people would give a response such as would shatter the dictators if there were a Government they could trust?

The resolution which I have before me is one dated 26th April and it begins by saying that the Congress is apprehensive of the statement about to be made by the Prime Minister that afternoon; but, be that as it may, I venture to think that if the Military Training Bill applied only to England it would not truly represent the position and that Scotland would not wish to be excluded.

Will the Minister give some consideration to the resolution which was passed last Sunday by the Scottish Trades Union Congress and their decision to withdraw their representatives from National Service committees?

asked the Minister of Labour why the questionnaire on the subject of National Service, sent out to members of the Society of Authors at the suggestion of the Minister of Labour, asks them to give general particulars of their political views?

My Department have had informal consultations with the Society of Authors on the subject of National Service. No request was, however, made that a questionnaire should be issued to their members, nor have I been informed that any such questionnaire has, in fact, been issued.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Incorporated Society of Authors, Playwrights and Composers have sent out to all their members a circular which includes this statement: We are, at the suggestion of the Ministry of Labour, inviting members of the Society to fill in the accompanying questionnaire. And the questionnaire asks them to give general particulars of their political opinions. Does the right hon. Gentleman ascept that or repudiate it?

That is a matter which has been just brought to my attention. I have not seen the questionnaire.

Do I understand that the Ministry of Labour are opposed to any inquiry respecting the political opinions of persons who volunteer for National Service?

I should like to see the questionnaire before I answered that question.

I beg to give notice that, owing to the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Labour the number of persons, male and/or female, separately, that have volunteered to date for National Service; and in what way and with what success the entertainment industry has been asked to co-operate in this campaign?

The number of applications for enrolment under the National Service Scheme, up to 20th May, including no doubt a certain number of applications by persons who applied to more than one service, was approximately 1,495,000 (1,045,000 by men and 450,000 by women). The co-operation of the entertainment industry has been freely given since the start of the campaign. The industry has invited National Service speakers to address theatre and cinema theatre audiences, and special facilities have been widely given in cinema theatres both upon the screen and for exhibits and recruiting stalls upon the theatre premises. I welcome this opportunity of expressing the Government's thanks for what the entertainment industry has done and is still doing for National Service.

Was that assistance given by all branches of the entertainment industry?

Yes, as far as I understand.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he has now concluded his investigations into the wages and conditions of domestic workers in this country and, in this event, whether he is prepared to recommend the appointment of a Departmental Committee to investigate the whole of the problems associated with domestic service?

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for Lincoln (Mr. Liddall) on 20th April.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he will consider setting up a trade board to cover the 20,000 persons employed on tricycles in public places as ice-cream sellers?

I have nothing to add to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member on 17th November last.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the very deplorable conditions under which these people are employed?

I gave the hon. Gentleman a very full answer last November. Mr. Davies: That is many months ago.

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether he has considered representations from the Lancashire educa- tion authority respecting the differentiation in grant between the air-raid precautions works of the education committee and that of the air-raid precautions committee of the county council; and what action he proposes to take with respect thereto?

asked the Lord Privy Seal why the Cheltenham Education Committee has been informed that the Board of Education will pay only 50 per cent. grant on expenditure for purposes of air-raid precautions in public elementary schools, when the Government grant for general air-raid precautions expenditure is 70 per cent.?

The exceptional rates of grant provided under the Air-Raid Precautions Act are directly related to the discharge of the general responsibilities of local authorities under that Act and are not in any way relevant to the measures which local authorities, in common with other bodies and persons, may have to take, and expenditure which they may have to incur, in meeting the requirements of civil defence in the sphere of their own specific responsibilities. Normally, Ciivl Defence measures in connection with a grant-aided service attract grant at the rate appriate to that service.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the grave dissatisfaction which is felt in all local education quarters in consequence of this differentiation; and can he not do something to deal with a position in which the same people, administering the same Act of Parliament, are to receive two different rates of grants for what is to all intents and purposes the same service?

I think it is a purely accidental circumstance that they happen to be the same people, and I would point out to the hon. Member that the anomaly, as he sees it, is not confined to the case of education, but applies to public utilities and in many other respects.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that local education committees and also local authorities regard this decision of his as a breach of the undertaking arrived at with them; and is it really worth while antagonising the local authorities, and losing their good will by allowing this question to arise; and will he re-consider the matter?

It is not a decision of mine at all. My responsibility in this matter is confined to air-raid precautions in general.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education whether he is aware that the St. Helens Borough Council, following a deputation to London, were informed by the Home Office, the Board of Education, and the Treasury that sanction could be given for protective measures by local authorities for council schools but not in the case of non-provided schools on the ground that it is the responsibility of the managers to provide protection in time of danger; and will he take action to grant the same measure of assistance to non-provided schools?

My hon. Friend appears to be under a misapprehension. As indicated in paragraph 11 of the Board of Education Circular 1467, issued on 27th April, of which I am sending him a copy, approved expenditure incurred by local education authorities on the construction of shelter trenches or the provision of equipment and materials for sandbagging, protection of windows and first aid equipment in respect of non-provided as well as provided elementary schools will be eligible for grant from the Board. A deputation from the St. Helens local education authority were informed to this effect on 20th April last.

asked the Lord Privy Seal how many areas are still not completely supplied with fire-fighting appliances, first-aid equipment, and gas masks for air-raid precautions purposes?

Adequate equipment for training purposes in general air-raid precautions has been issued to all areas that have applied for it. A substantial amount of mobilisation equipment has been issued to the areas chiefly exposed to risk and further supplies are issued as and when they are received from manufacturers. No area is however fully supplied yet with all equipment. Civilian gas masks have been issued in full to all areas except remote districts where the risks of attack are considered small. Reserve supplies are available. As regards fire-fighting equipment no area has yet received its full equipment, but deliveries are now in general satisfactory.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the absence of complete supplies is causing grave anxiety to a large number of people; and when is he likely to be in a position to make a more satisfactory statement?

The House will realise that however greatly the programme of supplies may have been accelerated—and it has been very greatly accelerated—some substantial time must elapse before it can be completed.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are some authorities who have applied for equipment and who have not the necessary equipment with which to train their air-raid wardens?

There may be some such areas, but I think it will be found in all cases that they are remote areas, in which the risk of attack is not great. It is necessary to proceed on some system of priority.

With all due respect, surely the Minister does not regard the Midlands as a remote area which is immune from attack?

Portions of it may be.

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether he is aware that the cost price of the standard unit steel shelter, the total weight of which is 8½ cwt., exclusive of distribution charges but including profit, should not exceed £5; and how many such shelters has his Department ordered?

No, Sir. The production costs of the steel shelter are subject to investigation by the Import Duties Advisory Committee, and I am satisfied that the estimated average price which I gave in reply to a previous question by the hon. Member on 16th May is reasonable. That price included of course a substantial item representing cost of fabrication. The number of standard units ordered to date is 1,400,000.

In view of that reply and the reply which the Minister gave on 16th May, may I ask him whether he is aware that competent people estimate that the cost of these shelters should not exceed £5; and that if the order which the Minister implies has been placed by his Department for over 1,000,000 shelters is adhered to at the price indicated, it means that some manufacturer is clearing off with something like £2,000,000 on that particular order?

It is not a question of "some manufacturer" because arrangements have been made with the federation and with the industry as a whole. The Import Duties Advisory Committee, with whom I am in touch, and who have undertaken an investigation into the case, are, from my point of view, the most competent and the most impartial body available for that purpose.

Has the right hon. Gentleman received any offers from responsible firms to supply these shelters at a materially lower price?

No, Sir.

Is the Minister aware that he will not get any competitive prices and he will have to insist on having the price reduced to the proper level?

Is not this whole matter thoroughly unsatisfactory?

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether he is aware that manufacturers of the Home Office type of steel shelter, the total weight which is approximately 800 lbs., are retailing them to the general public at £10 each, and, as the cost including delivery and a margin of profit should not exceed £7, what he is doing to control the price of these shelters to the public?

If the hon. Member has in mind steel shelters of the standard Home Office design, I can only say that the manufacturers are under agreement not to sell this type of shelter to the general public. When adequate supplies are available I will make an announcement regarding the channel through which the general public may purchase the shelters, and the price.

Is not the Minister aware that the manufacturers are, in fact, quoting to the general public at this price and that competent people are satisfied that this kind of material should not cost more than £18 a ton delivered?

The standard type of shelter is not quoted to the public.

Is the Minister aware that I myself have received a quotation from a manufacturer for this kind of material.

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will be good enough to send me particulars.

Does not this suggest the necessity for a real Ministry of Supply?

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether he will obtain figures giving the highest and lowest inclusive costs for erecting Anderson shelters in certain selected districts in order that some useful guidance in this matter may be made available?

The physical conditions which determine the cost vary so much from place to place that I do not consider that figures chosen in the manner suggested would, in fact, afford any useful guidance.

Does my right hon. Friend propose to take steps to provide some guidance as to the cost of erecting shelters, and has his attention been drawn to the fact that in some areas their erection is very expensive?

I think that there is a misapprehension here. It is not a question as between one area and another, but between one type of soil and another, and the cost undoubtedly varies within a considerable range.

If the right hon. Gentleman provided a suitable test case for a whole area, say, in London, which covered 2,000,000 people, surely that would provide sufficient guidance for a big area?

I do not think it is necessary to provide guidance to the local authorities who are dealing with this matter, and who have their own competent advisers.

But the people have to pay for these things?

No, these things are being erected by the local authorities.

asked the Lord Privy Seal why such long delays occur before the sanction or otherwise of the Home Office is given to schemes in connection with air-raid precautions put for ward by some local authorities, even after they have been asked by the Home Office to speed up certain work; and why the scheme for a cleansing station put forward by the urban district council of Sutton-in-Ashfield, Nottinghamshire, on 18th April, has neither been sanctioned or refused up to the present?

The Department is making every effort to assist local authorities to expedite the progress of their Civil Defence measures: but decisions cannot be given without proper consideration, particularly in a case which, like that to which the hon. Member refers, raises technical problems and involves the acquisition of property. The Department's Regional Officer has been in communication with the scheme-making authority regarding this particular case, and I expect that a final decision will be taken very shortly.

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether he is aware of the grave dissatisfaction in North Queensferry, a particularly vulnerable spot in the event of air raids, at the refusal of the authorities to make adequate provision for air-raid precautions; that an air-raid precautions official has declared that only splinter proof shelters are required in the village, and that attempts have been made to dissuade from the use of a deep and efficient mineral railway tunnel situated nearby for air-raid precautions purposes; and whether he will arrange for a more thorough examination to be made on the spot with a view to arranging for the evacuation of the population of North Queensferry in whole or part on the out break of hostilities, and other means of ensuring protection to the people of North Queensferry?

North Queensferry is included in the areas in which the Government's shelter policy will be applied in full, but I have not had referred to me any proposals for any special arrangements for shelter in this area nor any statement of the grounds on which it might be urged that such special provision is required.

Is the Minister aware that North Queensferry lies at the north end of the Forth Bridge and will, as a consequence, be one of the areas in serious danger; and is he aware that there is deep dissatisfaction at the absence of arrangements for deep shelters or the use of the tunnel? Will the right hon. Gentleman arrange for one of his representatives to visit North Queensferry with me when I am there on Tuesday?

I will see whether that is practicable, but I would like to make it clear that I must look to the local authority in the first instance to make representations on the subject.

asked the Lord Privy Seal under what conditions householders are permitted to return their garden shelters?

Under Clause 23 of the Civil Defence Bill it is within the discretion of the local authority to decide whether and in what conditions a shelter which has been provided or erected free of cost may be removed. I must make it clear however that the brick and concrete shelters of standard design are intended for cases in which the steel shelters are not suitable. Where these shelters are suitable they will not be replaced by shelters of any other design.

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether he is aware of the confusion and uncertainty among local authorities as to the Government's attitude towards the erection of underground shelters having a peace time use such as car-parks; that, as a result, a number of local authorities are refraining from submitting schemes to protect the civilian population until the Government's position is made clear; and whether he will make a statement now or in the near future making quite clear what is the Government's attitude to the provision of underground car-parks which can be used as shelters in time of war?

I would refer the hon. Member to the terms of the Clause dealing with the subject of underground car parks which was incorporated in the Civil Defence Bill in Committee last night. I think the terms of that Clause will make sufficiently clear the facilities which the Government are prepared to give for the purpose and the conditions under which these facilities can be secured.

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether decisions have now been taken which will enable directions to be given with regard to the private evacuation, in time of emergency, of persons other than children, mothers and disabled persons; and whether such directions will have special regard to the use of roads and private vehicles?

I would refer the hon. Member to the full statement on this subject made yesterday by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health, on the Committee stage of the Civil Defence Bill.

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind in this connection the useful provisional code which he issued in advance of legislation in regard to the alteration of buildings in connection with air-raid precautions, and see whether he cannot usefully make some similar statement in this connection, having regard to a certain amount of public anxiety and indefiniteness in the minds of the public authorities?

That is a suggestion which I have already under consideration.

Will the right hon. Gentleman draw special attention to the fact, as pointed out by the Minister of Health yesterday, that the priority classes include all women, all mothers with children under five, and all expectant mothers, because, judging from the Press reports this morning, that is not generally understood.

I agree that that is a point which ought to be made perfectly clear.

asked the Minister of Health the reasons for classifying Llanelly and Buwry Port as reception areas under the evacuation scheme, in view of the fact that all the other ports in the Bristol Channel are classified as neutral areas?

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for Everton (Mr. Kirby) on 18th May, which indicates the considerations I have had in mind in classifying areas for the purpose of the Government evacuation scheme. I do not think that it will be necessary to utilise the two places to which the hon. Member refers for reception purposes under the plans as at present arranged.

Do I understand that those two places will be removed from the reception area list?

No, Sir. I think it would be inadvisable to do so, although I do not think it will be necessary in present conditions to utilise them.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that local people cannot understand why those two places should be reception areas while ports on the Bristol Channel are not, and will he reconsider the matter?