Skip to main content

Commons Chamber

Volume 349: debated on Thursday 13 July 1939

The text on this page has been created from Hansard archive content, it may contain typographical errors.

House Of Commons

Thursday, 13th July, 1939.

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

New Writ

For the County of Brecon and Radnor, in the room of Ivor Guest, esquire, commonly called the Honourable Ivor Guest, now Lord Wimborne, called up to the House of Peers.

Private Business

Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Bethesda) Bill [ Lords],

Read a Second time, and committed.

Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Bradford) Bill [ Lords],

Second Reading deferred till Monday next.

Aliens (Naturalisation)

Address for

"Return showing (1) particulars of all Aliens to whom certificates of naturalisation have been issued and whose oaths of allegiance have, during the year ended the 31st day of December, 1938, been registered at the Home Office; (2) information as to any Aliens who have, during the same period, obtained Acts of Naturalisation from the legislature; and (3) particulars of cases in which certificates of naturalisation have been revoked during the same period (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper No. 170. of Session 1937– 38)."—[Mr. Peake.]

Oral Answers To Questions

Unemployment

Durham County

1.

asked the Minister of Labour for how many, approximately, of the 26,000 unemployed persons in the County of Durham who have been out of work for more than a year, are there training facilities for the employment awaiting them in the Yorkshire clothing trade, or in the catering trades, or for domestic work in private residences and in boarding houses and hotels in holiday resorts; and whether any of these girls, women, boys, or men, who are suitable have been offered and have refused training and/or transfer to meet the shortage of labour?

Training for work in the West Riding clothing trade is normally best carried out by employers in their own premises, and I have already stated that my Department will be glad to co-operate with employers wishing to engage and train unskilled workers at rates of pay enabling them to live away from home. Training is available for men for work in certain occupations in the catering trades in the Ministry of Labour instructional centres, and for women in domestic work at the centres run by the Central Committee on Women's Training and Employment on behalf of the Ministry. These facilities would appear to be sufficient to meet the existing demand for training of this kind, but the majority of those registered as unemployed are ordinarily engaged in industrial occupations to which they look for their livelihood, or are unsuited by reason of age, training, or other circumstances, for employment in the catering trades or domestic service. Training facilities are brought to the notice of every suitable person, and all vacancies notified to the employment exchanges are brought to the notice of suitable persons who are registered for employment, but no record is available in the Department which would give the information asked for by my hon. Friend in the last part of the question.

Are the wages paid in the West Riding clothing industry sufficient to maintain girls who are brought away from their homes and have to be in lodgings?

Has the right hon. Gentleman any real information as to the conditions? Is he aware that in many cases these boys and girls are left high and dry and that some of their parents are inconvenienced from the changed conditions because they are not able to get the same help?

As the hon. Member knows, we have had many difficult problems to solve in connection with the transfer of labour. In regard to the first question, I have already said that I have no record in the Department about it, but I have made it clear that, according to information we have, such cases are few.

46.

asked the Prime Minister whether he will move to appoint a Select Committee to inquire into the failure of the Commissioners for the Special Areas, after five years of office, to provide any employment in the Spennymoor Division, county Durham?

No, Sir. I cannot accept the suggestion contained in the latter part of the question.

If the Prime Minister cannot agree to appoint a Select Committee, will he consider some other way in order to deal with this matter? Does he remember that the Commissioners for the Special Areas were set up because a "Times" correspondent went to this district and reported upon it; and is he aware that it is no better to-day?

13th June, 1938.12th June, 1939.
Males.Females.Males.Females.
Wholly Unemployed105,8187,93788,0077.542
Temporarily Stopped40,5612,8278,5791,280
Unemployed Casual Workers4,27023.2891
Total150,64910,76699,8758,823

As regards the last part of the question, I would remind the hon. Member that in answer to his question on 22nd March and in subsequent correspondence I informed him that complete information is not available but during the twelve months April, 1938, to March, 1939 (later figures are not available) 4,660 males and

I understand that a considerable number of schemes are actually now being started in the area.

There are no schemes to start any new industries, and that is what we want.

I do not believe that is accurate. The schemes to which I referred are schemes of housing and public health.

Wales

2.

asked the Minister of Labour the number of insured workers in Wales, males and females, respectively, on 1st July, 1938, and 1st July, 1939; the number of unemployed persons, permanent and intermittent, together with the number of unemployed persons who left to take up employment outside Wales during the12 months?

The reply to this question involves a number of figures and I will, if I may, circulate it in the Official

REPORT.

Following is the reply:—

At July, 1938, there were approximately 595,600 insured males and 88,700 insured females, aged 14-64, in Wales and Monmouthshire. Corresponding figures for July, 1939, will not be available until November next.

The numbers of insured persons, aged 14-64 years, recorded as unemployed in Wales and Monmouthshire at 13th June, 1938 and 12th June, 1939, were as shown below.

4,129 females who left the transference areas in Wales were placed by the Department in employment elsewhere; some of these remained in the Principality.

5.

asked the Minister of Labour, how many unemployed men have been removed off the Unemploy- ment Register for the Welsh division during the 12 months ended 30th June last for the reason of death, or because they have attained the age of 65 years, respectively?

Statistics of the number of deaths are not available. Men are not removed from the Register on account of reaching the age of 65.

Is the Minister aware that I am trying to discover whether he is finding employment for anybody and whether that is one of the factors accounting for the diminution of his unemployment figures?

11.

asked the Minister of Labour the number of persons in the areas covered by the Bargoed and Caerphilly exchanges who have been de prived of either unemployment benefit or unemployment assistance on reaching the age of 65 years for the year 1935 and each year to date?

12.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware of the condition of the unemployment assistance office at Bargoed and the high incidence of sickness leave on the part of the staff; and what steps he proposes to take to deal with the position?

I am making the necessary inquiries of the Board and will communicate with the hon. Member in due course.

Employment Exchange.Number of Unemployed Men aged 50 and over, on the Register.Total number of Applicants for Benefit or Allowances (aged 50-64) included in Column 2. Number of Applicants aged 50-64 who had been unemployed for twelve months or more.
(1).(2).(3).(4).
Blaenavon244240139
Pontypool 458448231
Pontnewydd208199103

Of the persons who had been on the register for a year or more a proportion will have had one or more short spells

13.

asked the Minister of Labour the number of families in receipt of unemployment assistance in the Caerphilly area office's area and the Bargoed area office's area, respectively, and the percentage of such families in both areas, respectively, in which additional allowances are paid in respect of their sub-normal physical condition?

I am having inquiry made of the Board, and will communicate with the hon. Member in due course.

33.

asked the Minister of Labour the number of men above 50 years of age who are now unemployed, and who have been unemployed for more than a year, at the Employment Exchanges of Blaenavon, Pontypool, and Pontnewydd?

As the reply includes a table of figures, I will, if I may, circulate a statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Could the Minister not indicate now what number of men who are unemployed are above 50 years of age?

Following is the Statement:

The Table below shows, in respect of 1st May, 1939, the latest date for which such figures are available, the numbers of unemployed men, aged 50 and over, on the registers of the Blaenavon, Pontypool and Pontnewydd Employment Exchanges, the numbers of applicants for benefit or unemployment allowances, and the numbers of such applicants who had been continuously on the registers for twelve months or more.

of employment lasting not more than three days each in that period.

Assistance

4.

asked the Minister of Labour the number of applicants who have had their allowances reduced in the past 18 months on the ground of their poor industrial record; the factors taken into account in determining the poorness or otherwise of an applicant's industrial record; and the average reduction in the amount of the allowance in these cases?

The Board inform me that it is not the practice to reduce allowances merely because the applicant has a poor industrial record. The second and third parts of the question do not, therefore, arise.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that applicants have been informed that a poor industrial record has been a factor in the reduction of the allowances, and is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is the practice of the Unemployment Assistance Board to penalise these people merely because they have a poor industrial record?

I have made it clear that that is not so. It may be one of many factors, but never the one alone.

If I produce evidence that men have been so penalised, will the right hon. Gentleman consider it?

8.

asked the Minister of Labour the number of persons in receipt of statutory benefit who are also in receipt of supplementary allowances from the Unemployment Assistance Board, giving separate figures for Lancashire?

In the week ended 9th June last, 7,893 persons in Great Britain received unemployment assistance allowances in supplementation of unemployment insurance benefit. The corresponding figure for Lancashire was 703.

15.

asked the Minister of Labour why the Unemployment Assistance Board has decided to reckon as earnings any holiday pay which goes into households under the means test; and whether he can give an estimate of the amount of holiday pay that will be taken into account?

As regards the first par of the hon. Member's question, I would refer him to the statement of the Board's practice in this matter set out on pages 11 and 12 of their Annual Report for 1938. It is not possible to give any estimate of the amount involved.

I have read that report, Would the Minister say that the Unemployment Assistance Board should take holiday pay into consideration? What need was there for them to do that? Could they not have left holiday pay alone?

It would take pages to answer those questions. Perhaps the hon. Member will put down a question.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the holidays are now on in the Clyde district, and that the men who are now out have informed me—those who have been paid off—that half their holiday pay has been deducted at the Employment Exchanges? Is that the case?

Is it necessary that holiday pay should be taken into consideration, and is it not a fact that these men should, under the law, get the benefit?

I should not like to give a definite answer to questions of that kind. It is a very complicated matter, as the passage to which I have referred will show. If, after reading the passage, hon. Members would like to put down a further question, I shall do my best to answer it.

My right hon. Friend promised to go into a question which I put to him the other day. Has he done so?

21.

asked the Minister of Labour how many doctors certificates have been supplied in the county of Cumberland for extra nourishment under the regulations of the Unemployment Assistance Board during the last 12 months, showing each month separately; how many certificates have been disallowed; how many applicants have appealed to the appeals tribunal; and how many of these appeals have been allowed and how many have been declined?

I regret that the information asked for by the hon. Member is not available, and could not be obtained without a disproportionate expenditure of time and labour.

32.

asked the Minister of Labour the amount of money taken into account by the Unemployment Assistance Board under the means test for the year 1938 from old age pensions, widows and orphans pensions, and blind pensions?

I regret that the information asked for by the hon. Member is not available.

Is the Minister aware that in the report for 1937 the Unemployment Assistance Board stated the amount spent on assistance, which was£1,441,000? If that can be done for 1937, why cannot it be done for 1938?

The hon. Member asked what was taken into account. That is a very different thing. The total sum is one thing, and that which is applicable to the recipient only is quite different. If the hon. Member wants information as to the total sum, I shall be glad to let him have it.

If that is what the hon. Member desires—he did not ask for it in the question—I shall be very glad to let him have it.

Retiring Pensions

6.

asked the Minister of Labour whether his attention has been drawn to the need of adequate retiring pensions for aged men in industry and the difficulties created by the necessary discharge of youths from employment due to the retention of the older men; and what steps is he considering to bring about the necessary remedy?

I have no information that youths are being discharged from employment owing to the retention of older men, but if the hon. Member will be good enough to supply particulars, I shall be glad to look into the matter. As to the provision of retiring pensions for aged men in industry, I would refer the hon. Member to the statement made by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour in the course of the Debate on 30th June last.

Has the attention of the Minister been called to the statement made by the Chairman of Anthracite Collieries in South Wales quite recently, in which he drew attention to the special hardship which falls upon them as a company in that they retain the old men and are compelled to dismiss young men from their employment; and would not a system of pensions obviate the evil?

My attention has not been called to that. If the hon. Member will give me the reference I shall be glad to look into the matter.

Fund

10.

asked the Minister of Labour the amount of balance on 30th June, 1939, in the Unemployment Fund and the figures showing the state of the same fund on 30th June, 1931?

At 30th June, 1931, the debt of the Unemployment Fund was about£89,000,000, and was increasing at the rate of£1,000,000 a week. At 30th June, 1939, the debt had been reduced to about£77,800,000 and the fund held a balance on its general account of about£44,700,000, including investments at cost.

Is it the intention of the right hon. Gentleman in future to treat the fund as a commercial affair, with profits from the unemployed?

The unemployed have got a good many profits out of it during the lifetime of the National Government.

Mechanisation

20.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he has any figures which will show the number of persons who have been displaced owing to the influence of improved machinery or mechanisation during the previous live years; and in what way have these factors been responsible for the state of unemployment in Great Britain during recent years?

No, Sir; as I have explained on previous occasions in this House, it is impossible to obtain reliable figures owing to the complexity of the various factors which influence the course of employment. As regards the last part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the statement made by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour in the course of the Debate on 30th June.

Exchanges (Lavatory Accommodation)

22.

asked the Minister of Labour how many Employment Exchanges have been built during the past year without any provision for lavatory accommodation for persons registering at such exchanges; and whether plans have been considered during the same period of time for further Employment Exchanges without such provision being included in the specifications?

The number of exchanges built during the past 12 months without lavatory accommodation for applicants is 12. Most of these were planned before the decision to provide such facilities in certain cases was reached. On the second part of the question, lavatory accommodation is being provided in the majority of cases, the exceptions being the smaller offices or cases in which public conveniences already exist in close proximity.

Is the Minister aware that the people attending some of these exchanges have to come from very long distances, and in some cases have to wait a considerable time; and will he consider reviewing the position with a view to providing the necessary accommodation?

We are doing our best about this matter, and, as the House knows, a decision was recently taken on it.

I do not think the decision applies to all 12, but if the hon. Member has any particular case in mind, I shall be very glad to look into it.

Travelling Expenses

23.

asked the Minister of Labour whether payment of omnibus, tram, or train fares is provided for unemployed persons who reside a long distance from the nearest Employment Exchange to enable them to register for employment; and under what conditions such payments are made?

It is the general rule that disabled ex-service men and persons who live a long distance away from a local office may register for employment by post. The question of paying travelling expenses in such cases does not, therefore, arise.

Could not a notice be shown in the offices to that effect, so that applicants who live long distances away may be informed?

I am not sure that it is not. If it is not, I will see to it, because it is the general rule.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take into account the aged people who constantly, week by week, have to pay 6d., 9d. and 1s. for the purpose of registering?

Does the answer apply to Liverpool seamen who live four or five miles away? Can they register by post?

Training (Married Men)

26.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he will now state his policy for giving employment to married men with families who are refused training at Government training centres?

As I explained to my hon. Friend on 15th June, suitable married men are admitted to Government training centres, and receive special allowances while they are there. The Employment Exchanges make every effort to find suitable opportunities of employment for all classes of persons on the registers, married or single, whether they have attended a training centre or not, and, as the published figures of unemployment and of the placings effected through Employment Exchanges show, it has been possible to place in employment an increasing number of unemployed men in recent months.

In view of the fact that the Minister has not really answered my question, and that I have already made three speeches in the House on the subject to which I have received no reply, may I ask whether, if I raise it on the next occasion when the Ministry of Labour Vote is being considered, I might receive a real detailed answer to my question?

My hon. Friend has asked a series of general questions on a particular case about which she and I take very different views.

May I ask what is the policy with regard to married men who are refused training?

Military Training

Medical Boards (Occulists)

9.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he will consider appointing an expert occulist on to the panel of medical boards who are examining recruits for the Militia?

Each medical board has been given the names of one or more qualified opthalmologists to whom they can refer men for examination where they consider this to be necessary.

Would the right hon. Gentleman press this matter upon the board in order to see that an occulist is called in, because that would save a lot of trouble?

Yes, Sir. I made a few inquiries in consequence of the case brought to my notice by the hon. Gentleman, but the number of instances is not sufficient to justify a full-time officer being appointed to these boards.

University Students

16.

asked the Minister of Labour what age-limit has been fixed beyond which university students will not be allowed to postpone their obligation to undergo military training under the Military Training Act?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in that case these wealthy young men may not undergo military training for four or five years, and does he not realise that that decision makes moonshine of his claim that there will be no class distinction?

The hon. Member talks about moonshine, but he has overlooked the fact that many university students are poor boys, often from very poor homes.

How can the Minister postpone the necessity for service past the time when the Act is to expire?

The answer is that the Minister does not do that. The only decision is that they may not be called up for a year.

Are the young men from universities allowed to antedate their service?

Hardship Committees

19.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that Andrew Brown, hairdresser, Bruce Street, Dunfermline, had his case for exemption from military training considered by the hardship committee in Dunfermline on 6th July; that he claimed on the ground that his is a one-man business, and that the committee gave him till 1st September to dispose of his business; and as it has taken this young man five years to establish his trade, what employment does he propose to offer him on his return from military training?

I am making inquiries and will communicate the result to the hon. Member.

24.

asked the Minister of Labour whether the members of the hardship committees under the Military Training Act have received any instructions as to the procedure and powers conferred upon them; and if he has indicated what discretion is given to the chairman in the acceptance of evidence in support of the applicant?

The Military Training Act does not authorise me to issue instructions, but I have issued notes on the constitution, functions and procedure of such committees for the guidance of chairmen and members, of which I am sending the hon. Member a copy. I am also placing a copy in the Library of the House. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative.

Will the procedure of the different tribunals be standardised throughout the country, or are there likely to be differences as between one tribunal and another?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that some of these committees which commenced their duties a week ago have not received any instructions?

If the hon. Lady knows of any cases of that kind, perhaps she will let me have them. I do not understand it. She will get a copy of the notes, and I am placing a copy in the Library.

Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to provide Members of Parliament with copies of any instructions that may be issued?

I do not think it is necessary if one is placed in the Library, unless there is a general desire for it in some specific case. I am always glad to meet the convenience of hon. Members.

28.

asked the Minister of Labour the nature of the inquiry by hardship committees when application for postponement under the Military Training Act is made; whether he is aware that in some cases the inquiry lasts only two minutes, and that in other cases the men are not heard at all, but the application is judged without a hearing; andwhether he can give any information on the principles which guide the committees in reaching a decision?

The inquiries made by hardship committees are directed to ascertaining the facts and reaching an equitable decision. The time occupied by the hearing varies according to the circumstances of the case. Reasonable notice of the hearing is given to the applicant, so that he may be present if he wishes. As regards the last part of the question, I am not in a position to state any general principles. The committee have full discretion to arrive at their conclusion, and there are certain rights of appeal from their decision to the Umpire.

Have any cases been brought to the Minister's notice in which men have not had the opportunity of appearing before the hardship committee, and the case has been decided in their absence?

I have not had any such cases brought to my notice. If the hon. Gentleman knows of any, I shall be glad to hear about them. It is the normal procedure of courts of referees that notice is given, so that those who choose to come may do so.

Employers' Obligations

25.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is now able to make a statement with regard to the position of men at Willenhall, Staffordshire, who have been refused employment on the ground that they are liable to be called up under the Military Training Act, particulars of which have been furnished to him by the secretary of the trade union concerned?

I have now received a reply from this firm, and am sending a copy to the hon. Member. It will, I hope, satisfy him that the action of the firm was not in way due to a desire to evade their obligations under the Military Training Act.

Do I understand that the Minister is entirely satisfied that there is no cause for complaint in this case?

Certainly I am. The firm wanted men for "master keying pin tumber cylinder locks," which is obviously a matter of some complication.

May I take it that the Minister would strongly oppose and deprecate any action of this kind if it were taken by an employer?

I have made that clear 50 times, but I hope the hon. Member will communicate with me after he has seen the firm's letter.

Financial Assistance

29.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that men who are about to be called up under the Military Training Act are not fully informed of their rights in respect of contractual obligations and, in particular, of their right to apply to the Special Allowances Committee for financial assistance; and will he take steps to advise the men of these matters when they are called up for medical examination?

A notice has been issued, and was published in the Press on 5th July, stating that men who have already been medically examined, and who have not yet been afforded an opportunity of making a claim for financial assistance, should apply in writing to the Service Department concerned, stating briefly the nature of the hardship alleged, when the appropriate form will be sent to them. In future, forms will be issued at the time of medical examination.

Is the Minister aware that it is one thing to apply and another to get consideration?

Leyton Borough Council (Resolution)

53.

asked the Minister of Health whether he has considered the resolution from the Leyton Borough Council adopting the permissive powers referred to in the Ministry's circular No. 1827, but registering their protest against any differentiation of treatment of militiamen, and requesting that they be authorised to adopt the same course with regard to any employés affected by the Military Service Act as they have agreed to adopt respecting employés affected by the Reserve and Auxiliary Forces Act; and whether he intends to take any action in the matter?

I have received this resolution and considered it, but I cannot see my way to take action as suggested.

Has the Minister received a large number of similar protests or communications from other authorities in the country?

I think that communications have been received from other authorities, but I cannot say the number without notice.

Hours Of Work

18.

asked the Minister of Labour in what countries, apart from Germany and Italy, a reduction of working hours has been accompanied by a reduction of workers earnings?

If the information is not available, why is it quoted each year against the reduction of working hours on the score that the convention does not safeguard the workers' interests?

The answer is that I am responsible for this country and for the interests of the workers in this country.

Is it not the case that in the British Dominions there have been reductions in working hours and actual increases in wages, and also in the United States and in the Scandinavian countries?

The hon. Member is making a wide statement, but I may point out that the House has consistently supported me in my attitude against this reactionary measure.

73.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many applications, and in what industries, have been made under Section 71 of the Factories Act for inquiries to be held, with a view to retaining the working week for those under 16 years of age at 48 hours; how many inquiries have been held; to what industries; and with what result?

I would refer the hon. Member to the statement given to the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) on 29th June. Since then reports of two inquiries have been received, namely, for the bleaching and dyeing and for the printing and bookbinding trades. In both cases the Commissioners have recommended that regulations should be made under the section.

May I ask whether, pending a decision in this case, it is possible for persons under the age of 16 to work the shorter hours until the matter is settled?

No, Sir; the position is that where an inquiry has been ordered and there has not yet been a report, the hours continue as before until the regulations come into force or are turned down.

Am I to understand that the Home Office has no power to permit shorter hours to be worked until a decision is arrived at?

Does the hon. Member say that this House has no power to prevent young people working long hours? Is not the Home Office going to do something about it?

The Factory Act definitely provides for machinery under which in certain cases longer hours than 44 per week may be worked. That procedure is being strictly adhered to, and by far and away the greater number of applications which we have received have been turned down.

Can the hon. Member say the date at which his right hon. Friend is likely to lay on the Table of the House regulations in respect of the cotton, wool and leather industries, as to which recommendations are being made, or in any other industries where similar recommendations are being made?

The position is that the draft regulations in this case have been issued under the Rules Publication Act. The draft regulations have to be issued for 40 days and after that my right hon. Friend can lay regulations before Parliament. In the circumstances, I do not think the regulations can be laid before the House meets again in the autumn.

Does not that mean that they can become operative without being discussed by this House?

That is not so. As soon as the regulations are laid my right hon. Friend can put a Motion on the Order Paper and the whole matter can be discussed.

Ice Cream Vendors

27.

asked the Minister of Labour, in view of the recent revelations of the low earnings of ice-cream sellers, whether, pending the establishment of a trade board, he will, through his conciliation department, represent to the leading manufacturers the urgency of improving wages and working conditions during the present season?

I am communicating with the firms about which statements have recently been brought to my notice relating to the hours of work and earnings of their employés.

Is the Minister aware that, since this question was put down, a strike involving several hundreds of persons has taken place, indicating that the conditions are almost beyond endurance?

Eldorado Ice Cream Company, Limited (Employés)

31.

asked the Minister of Labour whether his attention has been called to the dispute at the headquarters of the Eldorado Ice Cream Company, Limited, at Stamford Street, S.E., in which 300 girls and 200 men are concerned; and whether the conciliation department of the Ministry intends approaching the disputants with a view to effecting a settlement?

I am informed that, as a result of discussions between the management of the firm and representatives of the workers concerned, a settlement has been reached, and work resumed.

While it appears that trade union activity has been successful on this occasion in promoting a settlement, will the Minister continue, through his conciliation department, to bring about conditions that will obviate the need for these people to strike?

I am very glad that trade union activity has been successful. I have already made it clear, in reply to the hon. Member for North Tottenham (Mr. R. C. Morrison), that I am pursuing my inquiries.

Will the Minister bear in mind that this strike was in only one branch of a large business with branches all over the country?

Is my right hon. Friend aware of the strange conduct of this firm in regard to their manager?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that conditions in this firm have for years been notorious?

Town Planning, Woking

34.

asked the Minister of Health in which local papers and for which dates his inspector's inquiry into the appeal by Messrs. Duncan B. Gray and Partners, Limited, on behalf of Wing- Commander Shaw, D.F.C., against the zoning of land on and near the Manor House Estate, Byfleet, Woking, were inserted; whether the newspapers were produced at the inquiry; and by whose action were the Press excluded from the inquiry?

As regards the first and second parts of the question, it is not customary for notice to be given in local newspapers of inquiries under Section 10 of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1932, which are held for the purpose of enabling me to decide an issue between the local authority and the appellant and no such notice was given in this instance. With regard to the last part of the question, it is customary to permit the Press to be present at such inquiries, if they so desire, and their exclusion in this instance was due to a misunderstanding on the part of the clerk of the council which has since been corrected.

Has it been corrected to the extent of giving the Press some note of what the proceedings were?

Housing

Proposed Estate, Kingston By-Pass

35.

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware of the proposal to build several thousands of houses near the eastern end of the Kingston by pass road; and whether, in view of this proposed additional high concentration of population in the neighbourhood of London, he will take steps, including the promotion of any necessary legislation, to prevent this development until the Royal Commission on the Geographical Distribution of the Population has re ported?

I assume that the hon. Member has in mind the proposal to develop an estate of some 3,000 houses in the Esher urban district. I am aware of this proposal, the development plan for which has, I understand, been disapproved by the urban district council on grounds of density. I am not satisfied that any action on my part at the present stage is called for.

Does the right hon. Gentleman not view with apprehension the continual filling up of all the open spaces near London; and has he seen the advertisement in to-day's "Times" of an additional 1,600 acres, described as being "ripe for development," offered for sale? Will the Government not do something to prevent the growth of London beyond its present bounds?

Has the right hon. Gentleman considered the possibility of obtaining interim powers to deal with this situation, pending the report of the Royal Commission?

Surely the machinery is working perfectly well. [Hon. Members: "No!"] As the proposals have been rejected, the point of the hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) has been met. It would be ridiculous for a Minister to take powers to override an Act which is working quite satisfactorily.

Aged People

38.

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that there is a demand for the small type of bungalow-house for aged people; and how this is being met by local authorities and what steps his Department is taking to help the schemes forward?

Considerable provision in this respect has been made by local authorities in their housing schemes, the average number of small houses erected annually for the purpose in the last three years having been in excess of 7,000. The importance of making provision in this way for the old has been stressed in memoranda addressed to local authorities, and my officers, in examining proposals for the erection of houses, have the need for this type of house constantly in mind.

Seeing that the Labour party have always opposed the erection of small houses, may we take this question as indicating a change of heart on that side?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Labour councils in my division, at Seaham and Easington, have provided a large number of houses of this description?

Will the Minister visit an estate in his own division to see what is being done in that respect?

Back-To-Back Houses (Decontrol)

58.

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that a Bradford landlord, having secured decontrol of a back-to-back cottage by the expedient' of making it into a through house, arid having evicted a tenant by county court process, now proposes to wall up the door thereby turning the house once more into a back-to-back and now decontrolled cottage; and whether he proposes to take any action in the matter?

I have no knowledge of the matter referred to by the hon. Member, If the facts are as he states, the question whether the by-laws are being infringed is one for the local authority, and the question whether the reconverted house would be subject to the Rent Acts would be one for the courts. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative.

Is it possible for a local authority to provide by by-law against such a happening?

I have no doubt that is so, but the question whether such a by-law is infringed or not is a matter for the local authority.

Would the right hon. Gentleman pass such a by-law if it were offered to him for confirmation?

Wallsend (Aged Persons)

62.

asked the Minister of Health whether he has yet received from the Wallsend Borough Council detailed proposals for erecting 100 houses for aged people, and 220 houses to relieve over-crowding, which were agreed to by him in principle last February?

Public Health

X-Ray Apparatus

36.

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that advice is being given to hospitals purchasing deep therapy X-ray apparatus that foreign firms can produce better equipment than British firms, and that as a result of this advice several installations of foreign apparatus have been made; and whether he will consider issuing a circular to all hospitals recommending them to make use to the utmost extent of the British-made X-ray equipment?

I am not aware that any such advice as is referred to in the first part of the question is being given. As regards the second part, my Department has issued a circular to local authorities recommending them, wherever practicable, to make use of goods and materials of home production, but I have no authority to issue a similar circular to voluntary hospitals.

37.

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that it is being proposed to instal foreign-made X-ray apparatus at Chichester in connection with the British Empire Cancer Campaign; and, in view of the known efficiency of British-made X-ray apparatus, will he make representations that all future installations by the British Empire Cancer Campaign shall be entirely British?

I am aware that the British Empire Cancer Campaign have offered to provide X-ray apparatus for the Royal West Sussex County Hospital at Chichester, but I have no information as to the country of origin of the apparatus to be provided. I regret that I cannot see my way to make representations as suggested on the subject.

Is it not a fact that this campaign is financed by British money; and would it not be fair to spend this money on British materials?

The first criterion must be the efficiency of the apparatus for the purpose.

Atmosphere Pollution, Swanscombe And Gkeenhithe

57.

asked the Minister of Health what complaints he has received as to the cement dust nuisance at Swans-combe and Greenhithe which, in the event of a certain wind direction, causes a disagreeable smell of sulphurated hydrogen from the cement works; and whether he will take steps to assist in mitigating this nuisance in the interests of the health of the population in the vicinity?

I have received complaints in respect of nuisance from cement works at Swanscombe and Greenhithe. The matter is receiving the constant attention of my technical officers and substantial improvements have already been made. The matter will continue to receive attention.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this dust nuisance is not only a menace to the health of the people but it also means a never-ending struggle for the housewives to keep their homes free from this dust.

The matter will continue to receive the attention of the officers of my Department.

Nursing Services

65.

asked the Minister of Health whether he can now indicate the action it is proposed to take with respect to the recommendations contained in the report of the Inter-Departmental Committee on the Nursing Services, including the question of superannuation and the transfer of superannuation rights?

Yes Sir. With regard to training and education I have already approved amendments by the General Nursing Council of the rules governing the preliminary examination, in accordance with the committee's recommendations. These amendments have taken effect, and my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Education will in a few days issue a circular on the question of training courses. With regard to general conditions of service, I am shortly issuing a circular to local authorities on various recommendations of the committee. The question of superannuation, with some other questions, is still under review.

Will these circulars include arrangements for grants to maternity hospitals?

Town And Country Planning

Dunstall Park, Wolverhampton

39.

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware of the proposed sale for building purposes, of 12 acres of land situated at Dunstall Park, Wolverhampton, which is sub-let by the Wolverhampton Corporation to the members of the Dunstall Park Allotments Association and others; and whether, as the area is scheduled under the Town Planning Act, he will exercise his powers to preserve it as a permanent open space for allotments and other purposes?

I am informed by the local authority that their lease of the land to which my hon. Friend refers expires in March next, and that, as they are not satisfied that, having regard to the cost of the land, its purchase for the purpose of allotments would be justifiable, they are considering a proposal for its development for building purposes. With regard to the last part of the question, a planning scheme for this area has not yet been made by the council, and I am accordingly not in a position to take any such action as is suggested, but I am in consultation with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries in the matter.

Will the Minister consider reminding the Wolverhampton Corporation that they may incur losses up to 1⅓d. in the£on their rateable value in the acquision of allotment land; and, in view of the importance of keeping this fertile land in cultivation, will he make a suggestion to them that they exercise this power?

I will consider that in connection with the consultation I am having with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture.

Will the right hon. Gentleman inquire whether the corporation propose to offer alternative land in the neighbourhood?

Interim Development

54.

asked the Minister of Health whether he has now considered the suggestion that he should remind interim development authorities of his power under Section 10 of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1932, to transfer the control of interim development to another authority if it is not being exercised properly?

Yes, Sir. A circular on this matter will be issued from my Department within the next few days and I will send my hon. Friend a copy.

Widows', Orphans' And Old Age Pensions

41.

asked the Minister of Health whether, in response to the widespread desire of municipal and other bodies, he is now prepared to set up a Departmental Committee to inquire into anomalies, such as those relating to persons in hospitals or in receipt of Unemployment Assistance Board assistance, etc., connected with the administration of widows', orphans' and old age pensions?

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the hon. and gallant Member for Accrington (Major Procter) on 15th June.

69.

asked the Minister of Health the total cost of contributory, old age, widows' and orphans' pensions for the year 1938-39, specifying the respective amounts contributed by the State, the employers, and the insured workers; and the number of persons receiving for the same period the old age pensions, widows' pensions and orphans' allowances, respectively?

The amount expended in Great Britain in the year 1938-39 in the payment of widows', orphans' and old age pensions under or by virtue of the Contributory Pensions Acts, including the expenses of administration, was approximately£79,900,000. This was met as to approximately£15,600,000 out of contributions paid by employers, as to approximately£16,600,000 out of contributions paid by insured persons, and as to£47,700,000 out of moneys provided by Parliament. The numbers of persons receiving contributory old age pensions, widows' pensions and orphans' pensions at the 31st March, 1939, were approximately 2,113,500, 816,900 and 14,600 respectively.

Civil Defence

Evacuation

42.

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that the War Office have scheduled Ipswich as an area too vulnerable to place even a small amount of new plant for the manufacture of shells; and, that being so, on what grounds it is intended to evacuate children from London to Ipswich in case of emergency?

The hon. Member will appreciate that an area may be one in which it would be undesirable to create a new industry for the production of armaments without the whole of it being on that account unsuitable for the reception of evacuated persons. I am satisfied that, having regard to the considerations set out in my reply to the hon. Member for Everton (Mr. Kirby) on 18th May, parts of Ipswich are not unsuitable for the reception of children, and I am arranging to discuss with the local authority the question of the number of children who can be accommodated in the less central parts of the town.

:Will the right hon. Gentleman call the attention of his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War to his answer, so that the town may no longer be penalised by the absurd decision taken in 1937 by the present Secretary of State for the Dominions?

:Does the right hon. Gentleman seriously mean to say that this place is suitable for the reception of young children, and not for the production of arms?

Does the right hon. Gentleman mean that some of the children in Ipswich are to be evacuated to another part of Ipswich?

55.

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that in certain cases where firms with headquarters in London have rented premises outside the London area as alternative accommodation in the event of war, local authorities are assessing these premises for rates although they are empty and unoccupied; and, in view of the desirability of encouraging the de-congestion of London if war breaks out, whether he can indicate that there is no intention of permitting such premises to be charged rates while empty?

A few cases of this kind have been brought to my notice. As regards the second part of the question, I have no jurisdiction to determine liability for rates and could not, therefore, take action on the lines suggested.

In view of the seriousness of the matter, would my right hon. Friend look into it further?

I am afraid that exemption from rating would require legislation of which I do not think there is any hope at the present time.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether firms which have made arrangements to transfer the whole of their employés to the country in the event of war, are still required to make provision at their present premises for blast and splinter-proof protection for their employés?

I think that that question should be referred to the Lord Privy Seal, but I understand that there are special provisions to deal with cases where the whole of the employés are transferred to some other premises.

Property which, though empty, is held to be in beneficial occupation, may be rated.

Is it not the fact that there is no power to levy rates on unoccupied premises in England, but it is done in Scotland, and that is why so many houses are unroofed?

56.

asked the Minister of Health whether, with a view to impressing foreign opinion with the state of preparedness in this country, he will consider a trial evacuation of some of the children in selected industrial centres?

One or two local authorities have already with my approval carried out test transferences of school children from their places of assembly to the entraining station. The matter is one which, I think, can be left to the discretion of the local authorities.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consider organising something on a very much larger scale than has taken place hitherto, having regard to the enormous impression that this might make on the policy of certain foreign countries?

I will consider that, but I do not think that it would be wise at the present time.

70.

asked the Minister of Health whether, in the event of evacuation of schoolchildren, a hold-all will be supplied for the purpose of carrying a spare kit of clothes; is he aware that on the 1st May last the Birmingham Air-Raid Precautions Committee sent to his Department an application for approval to purchase the requisite number of fish-bags adapted for holding spare clothing, the cost of which would be 2¼d. each and what answer he has returned?

I have no reason to suppose that any general provision of the kind suggested by my hon. Friend will be necessary, but I am in consultation with evacuating local authorities as to action which may be necessary in exceptional cases in an emergency on this and other matters; the particular matter to which my hon. Friend refers in the second part of the question will be dealt with in this connection.

Medical Practitioners

66.

asked the Minister of Health whether he will consider arranging through the appropriate authorities for courses in first-aid war-time surgery to be provided for those medical practitioners whose practice does not normally include such surgical experience?

The eminent medical men who are acting as Group Officers in the various areas, most of whom have had much war-time experience, are, I understand, selecting doctors with adequate surgical experience for duty in the casualty receiving hospitals. I doubt whether the step suggested by the hon. Member would be of use.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the fact that in wartime practically all the doctors will be busily engaged in giving first-aid treatment in bombing areas, and is he aware that the proposal outlined in the question has behind it a good many medical practitioners who feel that they have had so little surgical experience that they would be at a disadvantage in time of war even in giving first-aid treatment?

If the hon. Lady will bring forward any information in her possession I will take it into account.

Does my right hon. Friend's statement apply to Scotland as well as England?

I am afraid that question must be addressed to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland.

67.

asked the Minister of Health whether medical practitioners in London have received any instruction on the medical, casualty and hospital services which will be put into operation in the case of emergency; and what indications have been given them as to the duties which each is expected to perform in such circumstances?

Yes, Sir. The group officers for the 10 sectors into which the London area has been divided are in touch with the medical staffs of the hospitals with regard to the duties of the individual doctors in war-time, and medical officers of health are giving the necessary instructions to the practitioners who have been allocated to first-aid posts. The Central Emergency Committee of the British Medical Association are keeping under review the position of medical practitioners not covered by these categories. I will send my hon. Friend a copy of a published memorandum which explains the arrangements for medical personnel in the hospital scheme.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the general practitioner in a vulnerable area like Battersea has no knowledge whatsoever as to what plans are proposed for emergency and has no idea what they are supposed to do?

We keep in touch with the medical practitioners through the British Medical Association.

Recreation Ground, Westerham

43.

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that at a public inquiry held in March, 1938, the Westerham, Kent, Parish Council was advised to look for a site for a recreation ground alternative to what was proposed, namely, 11.8 acres near Westerham railway station; for what reasons this land was considered unsuitable; what alternative site has been chosen; and, if it is being acquired, what is its area, the price paid or agreed upon, and the previous rateable value?

Yes, Sir. The public inquiry was held by the county council, and I do not know why they regarded the original site as unsuitable. I understand that no alternative site has yet been chosen.

Trade Disputes And Trade Union Act, 1927

45.

asked the Prime Minister whether he has now considered the case presented to him by the deputation representing the Trades Union Congress, and supported by others, that the time has arrived for the restoration of the pre-1926 trade union rights, and the repeal of the Trade Disputes and Trade Union Act, 1927; and is he now in a position to make a statement on this matter and indicate what action it is proposed to take?

I regret that I am not in a position to add to the answer which I gave to the hon. Member on 30th March last.

Ministers And Directorships

47.

asked the Prime Minister whether he has now considered the memorandum submitted to him by the hon. Member for North Hammersmith (Mr. Pritt) and others; and what action it is proposed to take?

I regret that I am not yet in a position to make any statement on this subject.

Millers' Mutual Association (Operating System)

48.

asked the Prime Minister whether he will find time for the Motion standing in the name of the hon. Member for Evesham relating to the Millers' Mutual Association operating system?

[ That this House deplores the operating system adopted by the Millers' Mutual Association under which, by the limitation of output, prices and profits are artificially maintained; considers that the quota system per sack of flour sold, adopted by insured mills, under which excess of output is penalised and non-attainment of output subsidised, does not benefit the public interest; and invites the Government to introduce the necessary legislation to render such trading methods illegal.]

I regret that owing to the state of Parliamentary business I can hold out no hope of special time being found for the discussion of the Motion standing in the name of my hon. Friend.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that wheat is within a halfpenny of the lowest price ever recorded, is he further aware that by reason of the price fixing system of the Millers' Mutual Association the price of flour is falsified, is not this practice a national scandal and utterly vicious, and should not the price of bread come down, as it would if these prices were not falsified?

Food Defence Plans

49.

asked the Prime Minister whether, since the Milk, Potato and Bacon Marketing Boards are pursuing their normal peace-time policy, he will set up a select committee to re-examine these marketing schemes with a view to making some recommendation to co-relate them to the Defence needs of this country?

No, Sir. I do not think that this would be an appropriate matter for a Select Committee. The best way of utilising the organisations referred to by my hon. Friend in connection with food defence is already being worked out by the Departments concerned.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that these three boards have the direct result of restricting the output at the very time it may be most needed?

Combined Fleet And Air Exercises

50.

asked the Prime Minister whether it is proposed, in view of the exercises of the Home Fleet in August, to take this opportunity of giving training with the Fleet to any naval reservists?

Yes, Sir. In order to obtain the fullest possible advantage from the combined Fleet and Air exercises in August and September and thereby advance the degree of efficiency of the Fleet, arrangements are being made under which ships now in reserve will take part in the exercises for which, as already announced, the vessels of the Home Fleet have been detailed. This decision will entail calling up an additional 12,000 retired Naval Officers, Reservists and Pensioners under the Reserve and Auxiliary Forces Act, 1939. The officers and men concerned will be required to join their depots on 31st July. An individual summons will be sent to each one affected.

I am glad to be able to announce that His Majesty the King has graciously consented to review the vessels of the Reserve Fleet in Weymouth Bay on 9th August.

Subsequently to the Review the ships will leave to "work up" before the exercises. It is anticipated that the exercises will last until approximately the third week of September, and that the reservists will be free to return to their homes after the ships have been reduced to reserve, at the end of that month.

Can my right hon. Friend say how many of these ships His Majesty the King is likely to review in Weymouth Bay?

I understand that the ships in question will vary greatly in size from a battleship to very small craft, but I think there will be about 130 ships in all.

Are we to understand from that reply that there will be no General Election while this review is going on?

Dental Board

51.

asked the Pay master-General, as representing the Lord President of the Council, whether he is now in a position to state whom he has appointed as the first dental chairman of the Dental Board of the United Kingdom?

The first chairman of the Dental Board of the United Kingdom, the late Sir Francis Acland, who died on 8th June last, was appointed in 1921 and re-appointed from time to time. The period for which he was last appointed would have expired on 28th July, 1939, and the provisions of the Dentists Acts preclude the actual appointment of a successor until that date. The Lord President, however, has invited Mr. E. L. Sheridan, F.R.C.S.I., L.D.S.I., Professor of Dental Surgery in the National University of Ireland, to accept appointment and Mr. Sheridan has accepted the invitation.

Is the Noble Lord aware that there is great resentment among British dentists, in view of the Irish hostility to Great Britain, at the appointment as chairman of the British Dental Board of a Sinn Fein Irish Catholic living in Dublin?

Local Authorities (Land Acquisition)

52.

asked the Minister of Health whether sanction has been given to the Nottingham City Council to borrow£4,896 to purchase the premises known as No. 44, Hounds Gate, having an area of 760 square yards, for highway purposes; whether the land has been acquired at the price mentioned; and what was the rateable value previous to acquisition?

Consent to the borrowing by the Nottingham City Council of the sum of£4,896 for the purchase of Nos. 44 and 46, Hounds Gate, for the purposes of street improvement was issued on 21st June, 1939. The purchase price was£4,750 exclusive of vendor's solicitors' costs and surveyors' fees. The rateable value of the property before acquisition was£305.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that this price works out at nearly£30,000 an acre; and does the price include what may be termed community improvements, or is that extra?

Can the right hon. Gentleman say how long we are to go on allowing local authorities to be robbed of public funds in this way without the owners of land being assessed for contribution to local rates? How long are the Government going to preserve this privileged class of the community?

60.

asked the Minister of Health whether the Brierley Hill Urban District Council have completed the purchase of 61 acres of land at Pensnett for housing; if so, what was the price paid; for what purpose had the land previously been used; and what was its rateable value before acquisition?

I have under consideration an application from the council for consent to the purchase at an agreed price of£3,600 of 62.625 acres of land at Pensnett. I have asked the council to furnish further information regarding the suitability of the site. I understand that, with the exception of one portion, used as a slag heap, the land is not in use, and that the present rateable value is£10.

63.

asked the Minister of Health whether the Manchester Corporation have now acquired, by compulsory powers or otherwise, 824 acres of land at Wythenshawe; what was the price paid and for what purpose is the land to be used; what was its former use; and what was the rateable value of the land previous to acquisition?

This land has not yet been acquired nor the price fixed. It is pro posed to be used for development as a garden city under Section 35 of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1932. Its present uses include certain agricultural and horticultural purposes and a certain number of curtilages of existing dwelling- houses and small businesses. The rate able value of the properties at the latest date for which I have information was£1.586.

Public Assistance

59.

asked the Minister of Health what action he proposes to take with reference to the case of Mr. Edgar Spruce, 26, Froysell Street, Willenhall, who, when recently applying to the Bilston Public Assistance Committee for extra assistance on account of his physical condition, supported by three doctor's notes, was told by one of the members that as he had not been granted a council house after 15 applications he must be a bad character; and whether he will take steps to prevent treatment of this kind being extended to applicants in future?

I am making inquiries into the case and will communicate with the hon. Member in due course.

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind the great resentment felt locally at the insulting treatment meted out by this member of the committee to an ex-service man, in poor health, applying for assistance?

61.

asked the Minister of Health whether he will state the local authorities now taking advantage of their powers to pay pocket-money to people resident in institutions?

With my hon. Friend's permission, I will circulate in the Official Report a statement giving, as regards England and Wales, the desired information so far as it is available. As regards Scotland, I would refer my hon. Friend to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State.

In view of the fact that such a powerful local authority as the London County Council has decided to take advantage of the provisions of the Act, will my right hon. Friend encourage other local authorities to do so?

I have no doubt that this question and answer will draw attention to the matter.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that although the London County Council have done this, they regard this Bill as a mere means of transferring the obligation of the State in regard to old people on to the backs of local authorities'

Following is the statement:

Poor Law ( Amendment) Act, 1938.

Authorities granting personal allowances to persons aged 65 years or upwards in Poor Law institutions.

ENGLAND.

County Councils.

East Suffolk.Middlesex.
Lancaster.Rutland.

County Borough Councils.

Bournemouth.Oxford.
Brighton.Reading.
Carlisle.Sunderland.
Croydon.Wakefield.
Derby.Walsall.
Eastbourne.York.
Grimsby.
Wales (including Monmouth).
Monmouth.Merthyr Tydfil.

In addition London County Council have resolved to grant such allowances as from 4th October, 1939.

71.

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that some public assistance committees are still not giving the right interpretation of the statutory provisions of the 1934 Act, and are not disregarding or ignoring the first 20s. of a disability pension in determining whether relief should be granted to applicants who are disabled ex-service men as well as when determining the amount of the relief; and whether he will take the necessary steps to remind all public assistance committees of their obligations under the Act?

Public assistance authorities generally accept the view that the right construction of the statutory provisions referred to is that the first 20 shillings a week of a disability pension should be disregarded when determining whether relief should be granted, as well as when determining the amount of the relief. In the one exceptional case to which my hon. Friend drew my attention the authority concerned have now reviewed their practice and adopted the general view as to the construction of the Statute. I see no occasion for further action on my part.

In view of the fact that the House of Lords have already decided this matter, is it not an illegal action for this local authority to take, and can the right hon. Gentleman say what steps he has taken against the local authority for defying the law?

If a poor person defies the law, action is taken. What steps are taken to punish a local authority for defying the law?

If the hon. Member desires further information I will look into the matter.

Will the right hon. Gentleman see that the local authority refund the money?

National Health Insurance

64.

asked the Minister of Health what would be the cost of providing dental and ophthalmic benefits to persons who are in National Health Insurance; and whether he will consider providing these benefits?

I would refer the hon. Member to the replies which I gave on 16th March last to the hon. Members for Pontypool (Mr. Jenkins) and Royton (Mr. Sutcliffe).

Does not my right hon. Friend agree that bad teeth and eyestrain are the cause of much ill health and that this cause of sickness could be eliminated at a great saving to the nation? Will he bear that in mind?

If my right hon. Friend does anything in this matter will he see that the dentists fill the teeth where necessary and that they do not pull them all out?

Collapsed Wall (Accident, Birmingham)

74.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he can give any information in connection with an accident when a 15-feet brick wall fell and killed two men at George Street, Birmingham, on Wednesday, 5th July; what was the case of the wall falling; and whether anything had been done to prevent the wall from collapsing?

:I understand that extensive reconstruction work was in progress which involved the demolition of the wall. It was realised that the wall had become unsafe and steps were being taken to fix timber struts when the collapse occurred. The cause of the collapse has not yet been fully investigated but it thought to have been accelerated by heavy rainfall on the previous night. The inquest which was opened on Friday last has been adjourned.

" The Nest," Regent Street

75.

asked the Home Secretary whether he has seen the comments made by the judge about "The Nest," a Regent Street club, in the jewel robbery case heard at the Old Bailey, on Wednesday, 5th July; and whether he has instructed the police to take action about the club?

Action was taken by the police in April last and as a result proceedings are now pending against the person who was responsible for this place at the date of the events on which the learned Recorder commented.

Lift Accident, London

76.

asked the Home Secretary whether he can give any information in connection with the accident to the hydraulic bullion lift at the Bank of Scotland, Bishopsgate, E.C., on Saturday last, where the lift attendant was killed; and what was the cause of the accident?

I understand that the deceased, who was employed as a night watchman, was found in the basement, caught between the floor of the lift which was at ground level and the side of the lift shaft. I am unable to give the cause of the accident, but the circumstances will, no doubt, be investigated at the inquest.

Granting Of Bail

77.

asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to the remarks of the learned judge at Manchester Assizes on the granting of bail by the stipendiary magistrate in the case of a woman charged under the Ex- plosive Substances Act who failed to answer her bail; and whether he will consider issuing a circular to magistrates on the granting of bail in such cases?

It is an established and well-known principle that bail should be refused in any case where it is probable that the accused will not surrender to take his trial. The application of this principle to a particular case must necessarily be left to the magistrates to decide in the light of the facts of that case. I recently issued a circular to chief constables on the general considerations affecting opposition to the grant of bail and in the course of that circular I made it clear that it was the duty of the police to oppose the grant of bail if they have reason to believe that the accused will not surrender to his bail.

Is it within the competence of the Home Secretary, and, if so, will he express disapproval of the action of the stipendiary in this case?

No, Sir; it is not within the scope of my powers, nor do I wish to do so.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to see that the general practice of granting bail is not limited in any way?

I have made the whole position clear in the circular which I have issued to chief constables.

Corrupt And Illegal Practices (Prevention) Acts

78.

asked the Home Secretary whether, in view of the fact that many votes are obtained from the public by improper means at elections, he will consider amending the Corrupt and Illegal Practices (Prevention) Acts, in order to improve the law relating to the issue of political propaganda during elections?

I am not aware of any need for amending the law, but if the hon. Member has any definite suggestions, I shall be glad to consider them.

Will the right hon. Gentleman have a look at his own election literature at the last election?

Will not the right hon. Gentleman read the literature which his party issued at the last election?

Business Of The House

May I ask the Prime Minister whether he can state the business for next week, and how far he proposes to go this evening?

To-day we hope to obtain the Third Reading of the Finance Bill by half-past seven, and then we shall take the Second Reading of the House of Commons Members Fund Bill and the Committee stage of the Ways and Means Resolution for the Bill. We hope, if there is time, to take the Report and Third Reading of the Milk Industry (No. 2) Bill. The business for next week is as follows:

Monday.—Second Reading of the War Risks Insurance Bill, and Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolutions.

I may say that three White Papers are available to hon. Members in the Vote Office containing details of provisional schemes for the reinsurance of cargoes, the draft agreement for the reinsurance of British ships, and the outline of a scheme for the insurance of goods. On the same day we also propose to take Navy, Army and Air Expenditure, 1937—Committee.

Tuesday.—Report and Third Reading of the Agricultural Development Bill; Second Reading of the Senior Public Elementary Schools (Liverpool) Bill (if reported on by the Select Committee on Standing Orders); and Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolution.

Wednesday Second Reading of the British Shipping (Assistance) Bill, and Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolution.

Thursday.—Supply; Committee [12th Allotted Day]; Colonial Office Vote: Debate on Palestine.

Friday—Supply; Committee [13th Allotted Day]. The Vote will be announced later.

During the week it is hoped to make progress with other business, including the Overseas Trade Guarantees Bill.

In view of the importance of the issues involved and the commitments into which the Government are entering on the Agricultural Development Bill, does the Prime Minister think that to give one day to Report and Third Reading of the Measure is sufficient, having regard to the fact that sweet reasonableness did not operate the other night when we sat until three o'clock in the morning?

The progress of business does not altogether depend on the sweet reasonableness of the Leader of the House. In regard to the Agricultural Development Bill, it has been adequately debated in the House, and the print has been circulated to hon. Members this morning.

Does not the decision to take the Report and Third Reading on one day mean that the Government will not accept any Amendments on Report? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the general demand that a minimum wage should be included in the Bill, and will he, therefore, not consider delaying the Third Reading in order to give the Government time to reflect on the establishment of a minimum wage?

If there were Amendments made on the Report stage, obviously we could not take the Third Reading.

Does it not mean that the Report stage is farcial, because the Government have made up their minds? In view of the fact that there is a need for a minimum wage, will not the right hon. Gentleman consider delaying the taking of the Third Reading?

Division No. 240.]

AYES.

[3.53 p.m.

Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J.Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.
Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.)Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)Elliston, Capt. G. S.
Albery, Sir IrvingChamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n)Emmott, C. E. G. C.
Allen, Col. J. Sandeman (B'knhead)Channon, H.Emrys-Evans, P. V.
Anderson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Se'h Univ's)Chapman, A. (Rutherglen.)Erskine-Hill, A. G.
Anstruther-Gray, W. J.Chapman, Sir S. (Edinburgh, S.)Evans, Colonel A. (Cardiff, S.)
Aske, Sir R. W.Christie, J. A. Evans, D. O. (Cardigan)
Astor, Viscountess (Plymouth, Sutton)Colfox, Major Sir W. P.Everard, Sir William Lindsay
Baillie, Sir A. W. M.Colman, N. C. D.Fildes, Sir H.
Baldwin-Webb, Col. J.Colville, Rt. Hon. JohnFindlay, Sir E.
Balniel, LordConant, Captain R. J. E.Fox, Sir G. W. G.
Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.Cook, Sir T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.)Furness, S. N.
Beauchamp, Sir B. C.Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.)Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir- J.
Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h)Cooper, Rt. Hn. A. Duff (W'st'r S, G'gs)Gluokstein, L. H.
Beit, Sir A. L.Courthope, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir G. L.Glyn, Major Sir R. G. C.
Bennett, Sir E. N.Craven-Ellis, W.Goldie, N. B.
Bernays, R. H.Croft, Brig.-Gen. Sir H. PageGower, Sir. R. V.
Bird, Sir R. B.Crooke, Sir J. SmedleyGranville, E. L.
Boothby, R. J. G.Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. CGrattan-Doyle, Sir N.
Boulton, W. W.Crossley, A. C.Gridley, Sir A. B.
Braithwaite, J. Gurney (Holderness)Crowder, J. F. E.Grigg, Sir E. W. M.
Brisooe, Capt. R. G.Crudddas, Col. B.Grimston, R. V.
Brocklebank, Sir EdmundCulverwell, C. T.Guinness, T. L. E. B.
Brooke, H. (Lewisham, W.)Davison, Sir W. H.Gunston, Capt. Sir D. W.
Brown, Rt. Hon E. (Leith)De la Bère, R.Hacking, Rt. Hon. Sir D. H.
Brown, Brig,-Gen. H. C. (Newbury)Denville, AlfredHambro, A. V.
Browne, A. C. (Belfast, W.)Despencer-Robertson, Major J. A. FHannah, I. C.
Bull, B. B.Doland, G. F.Hannon, Sir P. J. H.
Bullock, Capt. M.Donnsr, P. W.Harvey, T. E. (Eng. Univ's.)
Butcher, H. W.Drewe, C.Haslam, Henry (Horncastle)
Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A.Dugdale, Captain T. L.Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton)
Caine, G. R. Hall-Duncan, J. A. L.Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.
Campbell, Sir E. T.Dunglass, LordHely-Hutchinson, M. R.
Cartland, J. R. H.Eastwood, J. F.Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P.
Cary, R. A.Eckersley, P. T.Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan-
Cayzer, Sir C. W. (City of Chester)Edmondson, Major Sir J.Hepworth, J.

I did not say that we have made up our minds not to accept any Amendments.

If the House of Commons Members Fund Bill proves to be controversial and protracted does the Prime Minister intend to give any further time to the Bill this Session?

May I ask whether it is proposed to take the further stages of the shipping legislation before the Adjournment?

Will the Prime Minister give time to discuss the question of Members sitting in this House and having an interest in the finance which is being discussed?

Motion made, and Question put,

" That the Proceedings on Government Business be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."— [The Prime Minister.]

The House divided: Ayes, 249; Noes, 138.

Higgs, W. F.Marsden, Commander A.Shakespeare, G. H.
Hoare, Rt. Hon. Sir S.Maxwell, Hon. S. A.Shepperson, Sir E. W.
Holdsworth, H.Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth)Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A
Holmes, J, S.Mills, Sir F. (Leyton, E.)Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)
Horsbrugh, FlorenceMills, Major J. D. (New Forest)Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen)
Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.)Mitoheil, H. (Brentford and Chiswick)Smithers, Sir W.
Hudson, Rt. Hon. R. S. (Southport)Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)Snadden, W. McN.
Hulbert, Squadron-Leader N. J.Mitcheson, Sir G. G.Somerville, Sir A. A. (Windsor)
Hunter, T.Moreing, A. C.Southby, Commander Sir A. R. J.
Hurd, Sir P. A.Morgan, R. H. (Woroester, StourbridgeSpears, Brigadier-General E. L.
Jarvis, Sir J. J.Morris-Jones, sir HenryStanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'Id)
Jennings, R.Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.)Stewart, William J. (Belfast, S.)
Jones, L. (Swansea W.)Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J.Strickland, Captain W. F.
Keeling, E. H.Nall, Sir J.Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- (N'thw'h)
Kellett, Major E. O.Neven-Spence, Major B. H. H.Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Kerr, Colonel C. I. (Montrese)Nicholson, G. (Farnham)Sutcliffe, H.
Kerr, H. W. (Oldham)Nicholson, Hon. H. G.Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.)
Kerr, Sir John Graham (Sco'sh Univs.)O'Connor, Sir Terence J.Thomson, Sir J. D. W.
Kimball, L.Orr-Ewing, I. L.Thornton-Kemsley, C. N.
Knox, Major-General Sir A. W. F.Palmer, G. E. H.Touche, G. C.
Lamb, Sir J. Q.Peake, O.Train, Sir J.
Lambart, Rt. Hon. G.Perkins, W. R. D.Tryon, Major Rt. Hon. G. C.
Lancaster, Captain C. G.Peters, Dr. S. J.Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.
Loath, Sir J. W.Pickthorn, K. W. M.Wakefield. W. W.
Lees-Jones, J.Pilkington, R,Walker-Smith, Sir J.
Leighton, Major B. E. P.Plugge, Capt. L. F.Wallace, Capt. Rt. Hon. Evan
Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L.Radford, E. A.Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)
Levy, T.Raikes, H. V. A. M.Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend)
Lewis, O.Ramsay, Captain A. H. M.Wardlaw-Milne, Sir J. S.
Liddall, W. S.Ramsden, Sir E.Warrender, Sir V.
Lindsay, K. M.Rathbone, Eleanor (English Univ's.)Watt, Major G. S. Harvie
Lipson, D. L.Rawson, Sir CooperWedderburn, H. J. S.
Llawellin, Colonel J. J.Reed, Sir H. S. (Aylesbury)Wells, Sir Sydney
Lloyd, G. W.Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)Whiteley, Major J. P. (Buckingham)
Locker-Lampson, Comdr. O. S.Ropner, Colonel L.Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R.
Loftus, P. C.Rosbotham, Sir T.Williams, Sir H. G. (Croydon, S.)
Lucas, Major Sir J. M.Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge)Windsor-Clive, Lieut-Colonel G.
MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G.Royds, Admiral Sir P. M. R.Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
MaCorquodale, M. S.Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir E. A.Wise, A. R.
MacDonald, Rt. Hon. M. (Ross)Russell, Sir AlexanderWomersley, Sir W. J.
Macdonald, Capt. P. (Isle of Wight)Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen)Wood, Hon. C. I. C.
McEwen, Capt. J. H. F.Salt, E. W.Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley
McKie, J. H.Samuel, M. R. A.Wragg, H.
Macquisten, F. A.Sandeman, Sir N. S.Wright, Wing-commander J. A. C.
Makins, Brigadier-General Sir ErnestSanderson, Sir F. B.Young, A. S. L. (Partick)
Manningham-Buller, Sir M.Schuster, Sir G. E.
Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.Scott, Lord William

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.

Markham, S. F.Selley. H. R.Mr. Munro and Captain Waterhouse.

NOES.

Adams, D. (Consett)Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwallty)Leash, W.
Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.)Edwards, N. (Caerphilly)Leonard, W.
Adamson, Jennie L. (Dartford)Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H.Leslie, J. R.
Adamson, W, M.Gallacher, W.Logan, D. G.
Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.)Gardner, B. W.Lunn, W.
Ammon, C. G.Garro Jones, G. M.Macdonald, G. (Inee)
Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey)McEntee, V. La T.
Banfield, J. W.Gibbins, J.McGhee, H. G.
Barnes, A. J.Green, W. H. (Deptford)MacLarcn, A.
Barr, J.Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A,Maclean, N.
Batey, J.Grenfell, D. R.Mainwaring, W. H.
Bellenger, F. J.Griffiths, G. A. (Hamsworth)Mander, G. le M.
Benn, Rt. Hon. W. W.Griffiths, J. (Llanelly)Marshall, F.
Benson, G.Hall, G. H. (Aberdare)Maxton, J.
Bevan, A.Hill, J. H. (Whiteshapel)Milner, Major J.
Brown, C. (Mansfield)Hardie, AgnesMontague, F.
Buchanan, G.Harris, Sir P. A.Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.)
Burke, W. A.Hayday, A.Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)
Cape, T.Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)Naylor, T. E.
Charieton, H. C.Henderson, J. (Ardwick)Noel-Baker, P. J.
Chater, D.Henderson, T. (Tradeston)Oliver, G. H.
Cluse, W. S.Hills, A. (Pontefract)Paling, W.
Clynes, Rt. Hon. J. RHopkin, D.Parker, J.
Cocks, F. S.Isaacs, G. A.Parkinson, J. A.
Collindridge, F.Jenkins, A. (Pontypool)Pearson, A.
Cove, W. G.Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath)Pathick-Lawrence, Rt. Han. F. W.
Daggar, G.John, W.Quibell, D. J. K.
Dalton, H.Jones, A. C. (Shipley)Richards, R. (Wrexham)
Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill)Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.Ridley, G.
Day, H.Kirby, B. V.Riley, B.
Dobbie, W.Kirkwood, D.Ritson, J.
Dunn, E. (Rother Valley)Lathan, G.Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)
Ede, j. C.Lawson, J. J.Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens)

Rothschild, J. A. deSorensen, R. W.Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. J. C.
Sanders, W. S.Stephen, C.Welsh, J. C.
Seely, Sir H. M.Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)Westwood, J.
Sexton, T. M.Stokes, R. R.Whiteley, W. (Blaydon)
Shinwell, E.Slrauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)Wilkinson, Ellen
Silkin, L.Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)
Silverman, S. S.Thorne, W.Williams, T. (Don Valley)
Simpson, F. B.Thurtle, E.Wilmot, John
Sinclair, Rt. Hen. Sir A. (C'thn's)Tinker, J. J.Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)
Sloan, A.Viant, S. P.Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)
Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)Walkden, A. G.Young, Sir R. (Newton)
Smith, E. (Stoke)Walker, J.
Smith, Rt. Hon. H. B. Lees- (K'ly)Walking, F. C.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.

Smith, T. (Normenlon)Watson, W. McL.Mr. Mathers and Mr. Groves.

Personal Explanation

I ask your leave, Mr. Speaker, and the leave of the House, to make a personal statement and explanation. In the Debate on the British Overseas Airways Bill on Monday last, I made a statement to the effect that the Chief of the Air Staff sent his wife and family to Paris by a French air line in preference to a British air line. I now find that I was misled by the publicity literature of Air France. When I made this statement, I had in my possession some Air France publicity literature, showing a photograph of the Chief of the Air Staff's family alighting at Paris from an Air France liner, having flown from London. I assumed wrongly that they were flying to Paris, whereas, in fact, they were flying to Geneva via Paris. The facts are that last December the wife of the Chief of the Air Staff was taking her son to a locality near Geneva, to convalesce following a serious operation. They proceeded to Geneva from London by Air France, which provides the only through service, although a change of 'plane is necessary at Paris. It was incorrect, therefore, to have inferred, as I did in my statement, that their destination was Paris. It was, I realise, important, having regard to the health of the boy, that there should have been no possibility of delays in connections at Paris, as might have occurred had use been made of the British service to Paris. Therefore, I would like to apologise to the Chief of the Air Staff and his family for my inadvertent misrepresentation of the facts to the House.

New Member Sworn

Major Sir Jocelyn Morton Lucas, baronet, for the Borough of Portsmouth (South Division).

Bill Presented

British Shipping (Assistance) Bill

"to make provision for the granting of financial assistance to the owners of ships registered in the United Kingdom and persons qualified to be such owners, being persons whose principal place of business is in the United Kingdom; to provide for the creation of a reserve of merchant shipping; and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid," presented by Mr. Stanley; supported by Mr. W. S. Morrison, Captain Crookshank and Mr. Cross; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 198.]

Navy, Army And Air Expenditure, 1937

Resolved,

"That this House will, upon Monday next, resolve itself into a Committee to consider the surpluses and deficits upon Navy, Army and Air grants for the year ended 31st March, 1938, and the application of surpluses to meet expenditure not provided for in the grants for that year.—[Captain Margesson.]

Ordered,

" That the Appropriation Accounts for the Navy, Army and Air Departments, which were presented upon the 31st January, 1939, be referred to the Committee.—[Captain Margesson.']

Highways Protection Bill

Reported, with Amendments, from Standing Committee B.

Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be considered upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 199.]

Minutes of Proceedings to be printed.[No. 157.]

Prevention Of Damage By Rabbits Bill Lords

Reported, with Amendments, from Standing Committee A.

Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be considered upon Tuesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 200.]

Minutes of Proceedings to be printed. [No. 158.]

Bills Reported

National Trust For Places Of Historic Interest Or Natural Beauty Bill Lords

Reported, without Amendment, from the Committee on Unopposed Bills (with Report on the Bill).

Bill to be read the Third time; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

Ministry Of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Bacup) Bill Lords

Reported, without Amendment, from the Committee on Unopposed Bills; to be read the Third time To-morrow.

Ministry Of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (North Lindsey Water Board) Bill Lords

Reported, without Amendment, from the Committee on Unopposed Bills; to be read the Third time To-morrow.

Ministry Of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Wembley) Bill Lords

Reported, without Amendment, from the Committee on Unopposed Bills; to be read the Third time To-morrow.

Southampton Harbour Bill Lords

Reported, with Amendments, from the Committee on Unopposed Bills.

Bill, as amended, to lie upon the Table.

Falmouth Docks Bill Lords

Reported, with Amendments, from the Committee on Unopposed Bills.

Bill, as amended, to lie upon the Table.

Message From The Lords

That they have agreed to,—

Hall-marking of Foreign Plate Bill, Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Heywood and Middleton Water Board) Bill,

Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Oxford) Bill, without Amendment.

Colne Valley Water Bill, with Amendments.

Amendments to—

London Government Bill [ Lords].

Stroud District Water Board etc. Bill [ Lords]. without Amendment.

Orders Of The Day

Finance Bill

Order for Third Reading read.

4.5 P.m.

I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."

Rising to move this Motion there is one preliminary warning which I should like to give to hon. Members, a warning which I hope they will welcome, and that is that I propose to make only a very short speech. The Chancellor of the Exchequer will be speaking later in the Debate and any general observations which it may be necessary to make on the financial situation as a whole will then be made by him and not by his right hon. and humble Friend myself. My purpose is merely to run through the Bill and to remind hon. Members of some of the points which we have been discussing in this Measure which will shortly become law. There is nothing very new or original that I can say on the subject, as I have already had occasion to address hon. Members on one part or other of the Bill on no fewer than 23 occasions in the last few days. I am afraid the House will find that it is rather like looking at a very stale news-reel.

The Bill has had some changes made during its passage, both of addition and subtraction, but the most important proposals remain as they were introduced. By Clause 1 we are raising the Tobacco Duties to new heights, and I think we all recognise that we are placing a very heavy burden on the smokers, both male and female, in the country. Clause 2, dealing with the Sugar Duties, shows that that commodity is paying its contribution to our increased needs. In view of some fears expressed earlier on, that these fresh impositions were too great, the House may be interested to know that the Customs and Excise revenue as a whole is doing well in the current year. This applies to sugar and tobacco, despite the increased duty on those commodities. Of course it is much too early to appraise the final effect of these duties, but I can say that the revenue coming in now from sugar and tobacco has been in advance of expectations.

Then there was the question of the increased horse power tax, which was certainly very fully debated at different stages of the Bill. My right hon. Friend found himself unable to accept any amendment on that subject, in spite of the very strong feelings which were evoked in different quarters. But looking back I think that in the course of time the House and the country will realise that it was inevitable to call for an increase of this kind. After all, we have to look at the Finance Bill as a whole. When these increased duties were being called for from such commodities of general consumption as tobacco and sugar, and when very considerable further calls were being made on the Surtax payers and on estates passing at death, public opinion welcomed the decision of my right hon. Friend when he opened his Budget, not to raise the standard rate of Income Tax still further. It was because of that decision that, when he found there was a further gap which he wished to fill, he had to try to take some contribution from a large number of taxpayers, some of them admittedly with incomes only of the middle range, by further taxation on private motor cars and other mechanically-propelled vehicles. Of course in doing this we recognise that it may be a difficult imposition to bear—that is quite clear—but we justify ourselves by repeating that as a way of filling that gap it was preferable to the alternatives open. These were either to raise the standard rate of Income Tax, which must have serious industrial repercussions at any time or—a possibility much canvassed in the House—to raise the duties on petrol as a whole, which would of course have meant a burden on all trade vehicles.

Then there were the Cinematograph Film Duties. Those in the Bill are very different from those which were introduced at the time of the Second Reading. In effect we have reverted, except of course as regards the Customs Duties on exposed cinematograph films, to the pre-Budget position. We expect to get, as a result of the smaller changes made, something like£250,000 a year; but I note in passing that that represents only about one-half of 1 per cent. of the box-office takings of this industry. There are two Clauses in the Bill which have not received very much attention, but which have considerable trade interest, as they were consequential on two trade agree- ments, that with the United States of America and that with India.

I now come to the series of Clauses dealing with tax avoidance. These have not in fact required very much amendment during their passage. When they were first printed there were a good many comments because of their retrospective nature in some cases. I can assure the House that there is no one who dislikes retrospective legislation more than the occupants of this bench, but I think it is acknowledged generally that these were very special cases. Let us recollect that for three successive years Chancellors of the Exchequer have warned possible tax avoiders that they must not assume that if their dodges were found out they would be left to enjoy them. The dodges were found out, and it is just as well, when serious warnings of this kind have been given by Chancellors of the Exchequer, that if the necessity arises they should be implemented. I may add that the warning still stands. Clause 15, which was one of these Clauses, certainly does give very exceptional powers to the Special Commissioners—very unusual powers which are justified in our view by past experience from the standpoint of tax avoidance. There was certainly quite a lot of criticism about them, but I think that on the whole hon. Members will probably agree with the view which my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Ashford (Mr. Spens) expressed on Tuesday, when he said:
" I hate the idea that it should be necessary to introduce such a Clause into our legislation, and to give to any body of men the powers which this Clause will confer, but if it cannot be done without, then, for better or worse, I suppose we shall have to arm the Executive with these powers."— [Official Report, nth July, 1939; cols. 2144-5, Vol. 349-]
I think that that is probably the general feeling of most hon. Members.

I want to make clear what the Financial Secretary has not made clear, that the fear which Members of the House had was not the fact that this would affect those who have been evading taxation but the possibility that it would lay open perfectly innocent Income Tax statements over a period of years.

I hope that to some extent those fears have now been allayed. I wanted to say that on the whole, in considering this problem, we have to bear in mind the fact that the result of the avoidance of taxation by one person or group of persons merely is that an increased burden is laid upon other people who are perfectly law-abiding citizens and who regularly, if not altogether cheerfully, pay what is due from them.

Since the introduction of the Bill, a new Part III has been introduced dealing with Armament Profits Duty. The actual Clauses of this part of the Bill have not raised anything like the amount of discussion which we originally thought possible. That must be due to the fact that most people consider that we are on the right lines. We did, in the course of our Debates, hear various phrases from hon. Members opposite such as that this proposal was only eyewash and that it was only a political dodge, and so on, but I would remind hon. Members who use phrases of that kind what a very staid newspaper, the "Economist," said about these proposals in an article on 24th June. It said that the new tax
"is intended to satisfy the public demand that, if any excess profits originating in the armament programme can be identified they should be heavily taxed. And, if a tax on excess armament profits is required, A.P.D., subject to quite minor adjustments, represents the nearest approach that can be made to that inaccessible ideal."
I am not sure that it is really inaccessible, but still that is the considered opinion of a writer whose views are worthy of consideration in contrast to some of the adjectives used by hon. Members about this scheme. It is true, as my right hon. Friend and I have been very careful to say several times, that it is quite impossible to give any estimate of what this duty may or may not bring in, because the whole basis upon which we have been proceeding is that, if the general system with regard to contracts is right, then large profits should not be made; that this is a second line of defence and that if large profits do occur then we shall have a second chance of getting at them through the Armament Profits Duty.

In spite of the hon. Member who speaks for the Communist party in this House, it is by no means feeble. He will recollect what I said in earlier stages of these Debates, that the cumulative effect of the Armament Profits Duty, the National Defence Contribution and the Income Tax is to leave the manufacturer out of the growth of these profits due to armaments only 27 per cent. That is surely a very heavy exaction.

Those are the chief provisions of the Bill as we have it to-day, but like all Finance Bills—and it is only the latest of a long line—it has to be considered in conjunction with its predecessors and with the financial requirements of the year. We have, unfortunately, been unable this year to make any concession of a large kind. My right hon. Friend and I have said "No," with great regularity to many Amendments brought forward by hon. Gentlemen on both sides of the House, some of whom presented what were undoubtedly hard cases and cases which in better times, in wealthier times, one would have liked to have met. But unfortunately it was not possible to do so this year. We have kept our minds, as I beg hon. Members to do, firmly fixed upon our objective which is to raise this year from taxes£916,720,000. This, really, is a tremendous burden upon the nation.

Let the House consider what it involves to the taxpayers. There is the standard rate of Income Tax of 5s. 6d. in the£. That, we hope, will give us£327,000,000. Beyond that there is Surtax which begins at£2,000 a year and rises very steeply— so steeply that in the highest grades of income, when it has been combined with Income Tax the taxpayer is left with only 5s. 6d. in the£of his own income to enjoy. This is expected to give us£70,000,000. Then there is Estate Duty on estates passing at death. It begins at 1 per cent. where the net capital value exceeds so low a sum as£100, and it rises to 55 per cent. on estates of£2,000,000 and over. That should give us£80,000,000. Then we have the National Defence Contribution,£25,000,000, and Stamp Duties and the like, with the result that the total from Inland Revenue will be, according to our estimates and our hopes, over£524,000,000. These are staggering figures. From whatever angle we look at the problem we must agree that that is so, but even this does not represent the whole imposition on our people by any means.

Our estimate of what we hope to get from Customs and Excise this year is about£350,000,000, or nearly£1,000,000 a day throughout the year. I do not propose to go through the catalogue of things which are covered by Customs and Excise, but it may not be a bad thing to call to mind some of the real stalwarts upon whom we have to depend in this field. There is£35,000,000 from spirits and, of course, a far greater sum of£66,500,000 from beer;£10,500,000 from tea;£15,500,000 from sugar;£93,000,000 from tobacco;£60,750,000 from oils;£23,500,000 from duties under the Import Duties Act and£7,500,000 from the Ottawa Duties. These are colossal sums. No wonder everybody in this country feels that we are very highly taxed. It is just because of these enormous sums which are to be exacted through the machinery of this Finance Bill, that we cannot lightly undertake further expansions of expenditure along the lines so often advocated by hon. Members in all quarters of the House. We must bear in mind the possibility that there is a maximum of taxable capacity and the possibility that in this sphere, as in many others, there exists an inexorable law of diminishing returns.

If I may recapitulate what I have said I would put it in this way, that it is in order to raise£916,720,000 from taxes that this Finance Bill is being passed. I do not propose to refer to the purposes for which the money is being raised and the expenditure side of the picture. That has already been done in previous Debates, but I should say that we hope to see this money raised, as far as we can see into the problem to-day—and, of course, I must put in the caveat that all our thoughts and acts may be falsified by events, for we live in difficult times— because of the improved industrial condition of our country. There are more people in insured employment to-day in this country than ever before. In the middle of June the number of unemployed was 1,350,000, compared with 1,800,000 a year ago and compared with a figure at the beginning of 1932 of nearly 2,750,000. Since the Budget was opened, and since this Finance Bill became the subject matter of the usual active discussion in this House the number of unemployed has diminished by some 300,000. That means that more people have more money to spend, and to that extent the demand for consumption goods increases and the repercussions are felt in many quarters.

I now turn to the other stand-by of our financial position, and that is the increasing thrift of our people. They are all learning more and more, with the aid of the National Savings movement, to save for eventual wise spending. The National Savings certificates, the Post Office Savings Bank, the Trustee Savings Banks, building societies, friendly societies, provident societies and all the rest have played an important part in our national financial stability. I think the House must have been pleased to observe that my right hon. Friend, in reply to a question on Tuesday last, was able to say that the latest available total of the savings of the people through the medium of the various facilities for thrift was£3,386,000,000 and that this represented an increase of 43 per cent. or£1,020,000,000 over the figure of 1931.

Well,£80 per head is better than£8 per head, or 8d. per head. It is a big figure and it is increasing year by year and it is an increase of 43 per cent. in the last seven years. These big savings movements are of great importance. They do serve and especially in times like these not only personal, but also national interests. I thought that that was universally acknowledged even by the hon. Gentleman opposite who thinks the amount which I have mentioned is not very much. This sort of saving and thrift is in the national interest and it is to the general advantage that there are people who save up in this way for wise spending in the future. That being so, it is all the more strange that the hon. Gentleman who speaks for the party opposite on these financial questions, namely, the hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benson) should have delivered himself of the most extraordinary remarks in our Debate on the day before yesterday. He said that it was:

" not right that unearned income from investments should be in the hands of private individuals,"
and he also said that what he was asking for in an Amendment which he moved was:
"a declaration that as a moral principle unearned income is indefensible."— [Official Report, nth July, 1939; col. 2090, Vol. 349.]
I doubt whether the thrifty constituents of the hon. Member who get their little dividends from deposits in the Post Office Savings Bank or the Trustee Savings Banks or wherever their savings may be placed, will be pleased to know that their own member's view is that this is in-defensible and that as a principle it is immoral. We do not take any such view nor, I believe, do most hon. Members opposite as far as that goes, but that is what their own spokesman had put on record.

In fairness to my hon. Friend who is not here, and who would no doubt have been here had he known that his remarks were to be quoted, I may point out that he was not dealing with what exists at present, but with what we hope will exist in the future, namely, an ideal state of society.

Well the hon. Member was certainly so struck with those words that he repeated them no less than four times. We, needless to say, do not agree with that view. The truth is that the nation has tremendous financial obligations to meet. This Finance Bill proves it. Whether our estimates of income are right or wrong, we shall know next April. In any event, my right hon. Friend and I, and all who sit on these benches, must hope that the industry of our people, and the thrift of all sections of the community, will be such as will enable us to meet the financial requirements of these difficult, dangerous and anxious days. I think the calm and stern way in which this Bill has been discussed, makes it clear that if anybody likes to put the question whether we are or are not downhearted the answer will be emphatically in the negative.

4.30 p.m.

I beg to move, to leave out the word "now," and, at the end of the Question, to add "upon this day three months."

The Financial Secretary to the Treasury seems to be completely satisfied with the proposals embodied in the Bill, and in a difficult situation he thinks that the Chancellor of the Exchequer and he can very well plume themselves on having taken measures which are thoroughly satisfactory. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman almost led me to believe that before he sat down he would tell us that we were living in the best of all possible worlds, and that nothing that we could do could improve conditions very much. He cannot expect that all the proposals in this Bill will meet with general satisfaction on these benches. When, as I suppose may be the case, the House carries the Third Reading of this Bill later to-day, it will have completed a task imposed upon it when the Chancellor opened his Budget on 25th April and made certain proposals to meet the expenditure of the year. Nearly three months have passed since that day, and, of course, during the intervening period there have been the general Debate on the Budget, the Debate on the Money Resolutions, and the Debate on the Second Reading of the Bill, and many days have been spent in Committee examining its various Clauses. I am sure that as the Chancellor turns over its pages to-day he will agree that it is a rather different Measure from that which he contemplated on 25th April.

There are people who consider the procedure to which I have just referred as appropriate for leisurely days, but that in the age in which we live it is not altogether suitable, because events follow one another so quickly and life is lived at such a pace that some people think that we here ought to do things much more quickly. Personally, I think there is a more serious risk of inflicting injustice by legislation in a hurry than by going rather slowly about the business. If you subject any proposals which maybe made to exhaustive discussion in debate, even though in that process you do not eliminate all injustices, you are much less likely to create them by your legislation. Arbitrary decrees may be expedient and may sometimes be beneficent in their operation, but they are very often cruel and unjust, and such methods are usually used only by those who do not want to have their objects and aims too closely examined.

Though our procedure in this House may in some quarters be severely criticised, it seems to me to have had a peculiar justification this year. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury has reminded us about certain things which have occurred since 25th April. For instance, this Bill contains one tax which was not even mentioned in the Budget speech, but two days after that speech was made the Prime Minister moved in this House a Motion in which was embodied the Government's decision to impose conscription. It is very difficult to say what exactly prompted that decision at that stage. I think there was pressure from within the country and pressure from without, and in addition there was the pressure of events, but when the Government realised that they were going to enforce conscription in this country, as a sort of side issue or second thought, they decided that they had better have the Armament Profits Duty, and, therefore, the Chancellor had to get busy, although he had not mentioned the matter in his Budget speech, on framing Clauses to deal with armament profits. There was another thing that the right hon Gentleman said in his Budget speech. He said:
"There is a troublesome question of long standing to which I propose to give a final quietus. It is that of the Medicine Stamp Duties."— [Official Report, 25th April, 1939; col. 990, Vol. 346.]
He has also modified another duty which he proposed in the Budget. We have had many illustrations during the last eight years of how the National Government are peculiarly sensitive to some forms of external pressure. For instance, they must on some occasions obey the City of London, and there are other occasions when they have to obey the National Farmers Union, even to the extent of kicking out a Minister of Agriculture and putting in another. The Chancellor this year, under pressure, has changed his mind about certain things. Personally, I am pleased that he changed his mind about the Medicine Stamp Duties and about films, but perhaps it would be wise for him in the future if he did not speak so emphatically in his Budget speeches about what he intended to do. His actions in these respects can hardly have enhanced his reputation for firmness and decision, nor can he be regarded in the future as a Chancellor who has given careful consideration to the proposals which he makes for new taxes before he makes them, otherwise he would not have had to perform the acrobatic feats which he has had to perform in the course of the Debates on his proposals this year.

It has been argued that in these matters the Chancellor has bowed to the will of the House. I am very sorry that the hon. Member for South Bradford (Mr. Holdsworth) is not in his place to-day. I listened to him one evening on this theme, and we were told that the Chancellor's actions in regard to certain of his proposals were quite right because he had bowed to the wishes of a democratic institution, and that when this institution made up its mind on a certain matter, the Executive must yield. The hon. Member for South Bradford found peculiar satisfaction in that view, and I can easily understand that, in view of the Liberal faith in which he was nurtured, now that he has transferred his allegiance to the quasi-Fascists and would-be autocrats who sit on the Treasury Bench any remnants of Liberalism that he may discover in their ranks naturally warm his heart a little, especially when he dwells in such a chilly political atmosphere as he does in these days.

This Bill contains some of the proposals to raise, by various methods of taxation, part of the colossal sum needed to meet the national expenditure in this financial year. The total sum required was stated in the Chancellor's speech to be£1,300,000,000. Of that sum,£430,000,000 is to be borrowed, and the taxpayer must find£942,000,000. There is no doubt that there are parts of this vast expenditure which hon. Members would curtail if they could, especially the vast expenditure on armaments, but conditions in Europe and elsewhere seem to make these huge sums for defence absolutely necessary under present circumstances. The responsibility for the conditions which necessitate the huge expenditure partly provided for in this Bill is perhaps difficult to assess, but the Government must share that responsibility to some degree, because they are the principal executive authority in the British Empire, which once, at any rate, had considerable influence in the world. Indeed, not only Members of the Government, but many hon. Members who support them would perhaps be annoyed if I said that under their administration Great Britain and the Empire seem to be counting for less and less in world affairs. To millions of people in the world the actions of the Government are held up to contempt and ridicule. Over wide areas of the world they are doubted and distrusted, and some nations now treat them with scant respect and even with contempt. British subjects can be stripped nude in the streets of a foreign city, and the prestige of the Government is so low—

I do not see how the hon. Member can connect this with the Third Reading of the Finance Bill.

I think I shall not have much difficulty in showing the connection of my remarks with the Third Reading of the Bill. Part V of the Bill deals with the National Debt to which the Chancellor told us, in his Budget speech, we were adding£137,000,000 this year, and as that matter is referred to in Part V of the Bill, it seems to me that the policy which has led to the piling-up of debt, for which provision has to be made in the annual debt charges mentioned in this Bill, can be criticised.

We are not discussing questions of policy. We are discussing the question of how to raise the necessary money. That is the object of the Finance Bill.

I quite agree, Mr. Speaker, but it might not have been necessary to raise so much money if the policy had been different, and it seems to me that the two things are closely related.

I will bow to your Ruling, Sir, and conclude what I have to say on that point by saying that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is to some extent responsible for the conditions which prevail in the world to-day, and that the deterioration in world affairs largely dates from that period when he had control of the foreign affairs of this country. I go on to ask whether the Clauses of this Bill which are designed to raise part of the nation's finance for 1939-40 indicate in any way that the money which the Government must obtain to meet this vast expenditure is being equitably and justly raised. Does not Part II of the Bill, for instance, imply that the wealth of the country is very unevenly distributed, while some of the Clauses of Part I of the Bill make it clear that the Government continue to levy heavy burdens on some sections of the community which they can ill afford to bear and imposes new burdens on those same people?

As one looks at Part I of the Bill, it is made abundantly clear that the Chancellor of the Exchequer and his predecessors, whose business it has been to raise money for the nation's need, have flung their net far and wide. Let us see what the tax gatherer does in those 11 Clauses of Part I. First of all, he touches one of the nation's habits, though I quite agree that there might be differences of opinion as to whether it is a good or a bad habit. He lays his hands again for an increased amount on the nation's food. For additional money he lays his hands over a form of the nation's recreation, and also asks for extra money from those who are moving about in the nation. The tax-gatherer has cast his net very wide.

I have said before that the Chancellor has shown himself to be very susceptible to outside influences in regard to his taxation proposals, but he has been singularly impervious to the arguments of the Opposition. He has resisted all the persuasive eloquence of many of my hon. Friends when they have endeavoured to persuade him that the increase in the Tobacco Duty would press heavily on some of our fellow citizens. On the first Budget Resolution I asked him to reduce the duty, but he did not yield even to my request. I know that there are wide differences of opinion about smoking, but it is a habit which is growing, as the Financial Secretary indicated by the figures which he quoted. The Chancellor may want to check it. I have never seen him smoking, and I do not know whether he does smoke, and he may want to check this pernicious habit, if such it is. I have tried to see through the cold printed words of Clause I the circumstances of some of those who will be affected by this increase in Tobacco Duty. I know that what I am going to say will be regarded as very sentimental, and spoken of by some people in a very depreciating way, but in this House we ought to keep as close to the facts of life as we can, to the facts of life of the ordinary people.

I have envisaged the circumstances of an old man reduced to penury, perhaps almost want, even after a lifetime of hard work. Thinking of the places I know best, I picture him in a limestone cottage on one of the hillsides in a Derbyshire dale, or in one of the bungalows which have been erected for old people in some colliery village in Nottinghamshire. He is smoking his pipe and getting a great deal of satisfaction out of it. Such men have smoked all their lives, and, whether smoking is a bad habit or not, tobacco is to them a real necessity. Need a Chancellor of the Exchequer who talks in terms of£1,300,000,000 as the annual expenditure of this nation place any further burden on that old man? It may be that the old man's wife is still alive. She likes her cup of tea. In most cases she will want some sugar in the tea. We are, too, at the time of year when soft fruits are ripening, and I can see that old man and old woman with a garden in which they may have gooseberries or raspberries—and later they will be collecting blackberries from the hedgerows. They stew the fruit and put some sugar with it, and it is a pleasant addition to a ration which is usually devoid in many respects of the things they should have. The Chancellor tells us that this year we are going to spend£630,000,000 on armaments. Need he make that old woman pay more for her sugar? I do not think so.

I am glad of that interjection. I shall have something to say upon it before I sit down. Clause 9 increases the horse-power duty on motor cars. The Financial Secretary reminded us that the House had discussed this matter at great length, and that in spite of all that discussion no change had been made in the original proposals. All kinds of arguments have been used, about trade and employment being affected and the effect on our broad national policy. I shall not make any observations on those lines; but I have another observation to make, still trying to keep close to the lives of the people I know. A man owns a small car. All the week he works hard, confined, perhaps, in an office, or engaged in some other indoor occupation. Fresh air and sunshine at the week-end are necessary to his health and well being. He may have a wife and child. With an income which in many cases is fixed he will find that this increased taxation upon motor cars will debar him from some of his week-end trips. Having to pay more in taxation he has less to spend on petrol and cannot take out his car so often. In that way the Chancellor is doing an injury to a section of the community which I am sure could have been avoided.

It is not for me to suggest alternative methods of raising the money. The Financial Secretary told us that we are now giving employment to more people than ever before. He said we were employing 12,500,000 insured workers, or slightly more. Those men and women, and a number of others who are not in insured occupations, are the real wealth-producers of this country, and I think it is because the values they create are appropriated by others that only a relatively small section of the community pay Income Tax. That the great mass of the workers should be deprived of so large a proportion of the wealth they create, and, in addition, be taxed indirectly to meet the national expenditure, seems most unjust. In this Bill the Chancellor takes another£12,000,000 from the people of this country in that way. He has argued somewhere that he has only done it to furnish them with an opportunity of showing their willingness to contribute to the vast cost of rearmament.

He seems to have forgotten all the other contributions they make. They give of their best in services and skill, often under uncongenial conditions, sometimes very dangerous conditions, where there is even risk to life itself. Sometimes those services are given for quite inadequate remuneration—in spite of what we have been told about their savings—and yet they are actually taxed to meet the cost of the guns, the aeroplanes, the scientific instruments, the clothing and all the rest of the things which they are producing. If it were not so unjust one would be amused at the crazy economic system under which we live. Take the case of a man working in the great gun factory at Nottingham making 3.7 anti-aircraft guns. The cigarette he smokes, the sugar he puts in his tea, the tea itself, and many other things which he needs, are all taxed to pay for the gun he is making. It is almost a crazy system, although the Financial Secretary seemed to find some satisfaction in it and tried to make us believe that we live in the best of all possible worlds.

As I have indicated earlier, I think the Armaments Profits Duty was an afterthought, because of a policy which the Government had decided almost after the Budget speech was made, and I agree with some of my colleagues that we shall have to wait to see whether it really works satisfactorily or not, and whether we shall be able to tax effectively those who certainly ought not to be allowed to profit out of the nation's need. You have already ruled, Mr. Speaker, that it is not possible for me to make extended references to the National Debt, and I would only recall that in the Budget speech the Chancellor told us that he had added£137,000,000 to that debt in the last financial year. I have memories of being in the House when the last Labour Government were in office, and of how hon. Members who support the present Government then criticised severely the Ministry of Labour because of the debt which was accumulating on the Unemployment Insurance Fund. Everybody now admits that those years were bad years economically. If one is justified in going into debt at all it is in years when things are bad, but can anyone justify running into debt at a period when we are constantly told that things are more prosperous than ever they were before? And yet the Chancellor of the Exchequer has to admit that last year he added£137,000,000 to the National Debt. I do not know what that debt will be when this Government leaves office, if it is allowed to stay here much longer.

I will conclude by observing that if one were a thoroughgoing cynic and sat regularly on these benches one would see with great glee how hon. Members opposite are, by the ruthless logic of events, by economic conditions within the country and world forces without, driven from one position to another. They abandon principles that they once held dear. They retreat to a new position which they think they can defend, and then they must retreat again. Sometimes it seems as though they were blind to the lessons of history, and ignorant of the laws of social development. I do not believe they are, but it appears to be so. They cling to privilege, to custom, and to theories which have no rightful place in present-day society." What a splendid opportunity they have, if they were not blinded by prejudice and class bias, to inaugurate peaceful social changes—we are warned again to-day that we must not expect anything of that kind for some time to come—and create a society more stable and more just than the one in which we live. Meanwhile, they will vote for the Third Reading to-day, having lost another opportunity of dealing with the finances of the nation in such a way as to create a society in which there is complete equality of opportunity and real economic justice.

5.2 p.m.

I beg to second the Amendment, which my hon. Friend has moved with such point and vigour that it makes it both easy and difficult for me to follow—easy to follow the theme that he has hammered out by way of criticism, but possibly difficult to develop the variations and to put emphasis on the points that he has made. However, without repetition as far as I can avoid it, and saving the House from any figures except figures of speech, I will endeavour to supplement what he has said. I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself can hardly claim this Finance Bill to be a success even from the orthodox point of view of his own supporters. Possibly their highest testimony is that it might have been worse. He has encountered serious rebuffs and virtual defeats in many directions, but, having got his Measure thus far, I suppose he is optimistic about surmounting the last hurdle in spite of anything that we may say. It seems to me that the first point of our criticism should be that the Bill provides no relief for admitted hardships, and no provision for admitted needs.

I must remind the hon. Member that on the Third Reading he cannot discuss what the Bill does not do.

I thought that sins of omission might, at any rate, be mentioned. I do not hope to argue the case on those lines, but we feel that from that point of view the Bill has great defects and justifies this Amendment. Certainly indirect taxation presses exceedingly hard on the home, involves very real personal privation and makes an inroad on incomes already inadequate. Taxation according to capacity to pay is a sound principle, but too often it is assumed that those who do not pay substantial amounts in direct taxation do not meet their share of national responsibility or fulfil the duties of citizenship according to their means. The indirect taxes that are imposed in this and previous Finance Bills exact disproportionate tribute from those on whom they are imposed and take toll of the very means of existence of this type of person. The impoverished old age pensioner, for instance, has toll taken in regard to sugar and tea, and any question of equality of sacrifice on the basis of that taxation theory certainly does not apply throughout the population. We have further to recognise that the demands of present-day industry and the intensity of modern life are such that we cannot afford to prejudice further the standard of life of the people, which indeed should be increased on sheer physical grounds, to say nothing about economic reactions, and the necessity for other things in life which make a decent social standard possible. I think the point arises in certain provisions of the Bill affecting the growth and development of the population and the problem of nutrition, which are more urgent questions than ever when such stresses are made on our national staying power and there are challenges to our national existence.

It is still true that there is no wealth but life. It is not only true in peace time, but it is vital in war time, and in the quasi peace conditions which exist at present. For these reasons it seems to me that there is no real argument in the excuse that these concessions cannot be made on the grounds of the necessities of armament expenditure. After all, the human factor still remains vital and essential in spite of all the mechanism both in war and in industry, and the cost of the concessions for which we plead is negligible compared with the huge figures now under consideration, and compared also with the proportionate value in physical and human morale, strength and unity from a national point of view. It is true that we live in most exceptional times with a terrific anti-social expenditure. The figures with which we are dealing in this Budget are colossal. It is most regrettable that they take the direction they do, but I think we must bear in mind at the same time that in this age of enormous real and potential productivity they reveal a situation entirely different from the presentation of such figures 50 or 60 years ago.

Our Budgetary calculations and provisions must recognise in these days these compensating possibilities. Unemploy- ment and allied problems certainly arise from the failure of our Governments to secure this necessary economic correspondence, and our friends opposite seem to attempt to manage our twentieth century world by nineteenth century methods. Rationalisation has become one of the blessed words in modern terminology, and it seems to be applied in almost every sphere except the essential one of maintaining and managing primary human needs. I suppose we are fortunate in having a Chancellor with very great gifts. They have not been too favourably recognised in one Ministerial office in particular, and the enormous financial problems with which he is confronted are in no small degree his own responsibility. The perplexities of the Budget are a formidable price of bad judgment in which we all have to share, and if at any time during his reflections and efforts in regard to this Bill he has encountered some kind of economic nightmare, most people will think it was well deserved. He is an excellent expositor of law and logic, but these times call for more than the custodianship of tradition and ancient financial devices. My hon. Friend suggested that we live to-day in revolutionary times from an economic point of view, and that it behoves us to be not less enterprising and vigorous in regard to our revenue proposals. The main avenue of discharging these immediate responsibilities is to pile up debt still further and, incidentally, to pile up problems for posterity. My right hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence) made a proposition in regard to an emergency tax which would relieve the future of a possibility of that kind. It may have its limitations and imperfections, but it certainly was worth consideration as an alternative to loading our successors with further liabilities arising from our own folly. There is another not altogether novel method of taxation—the taxation of land values— which without any hardship or injustice—

I must remind the hon. Member that he has now got back to discussing matters which are not in the Bill.

I regret that that is the case, but, as alternatives to the proposals to which we take objection, we feel that our captains of industry in distress and legislators who tax the poor might rightly have turned to less obnoxious methods. We all recognise that the present situation makes very heavy demands on all concerned with our Defence Departments, but that seems to me to be no justification at all for such a skimpy and non-constructive Finance Bill as we have before us. Furthermore, we all hope that this ugly war suspense period will be only a temporary phase, desperate though it may be, and without a better plan and really organic budgetary control, in the absence of war it seems to me that we shall merely pass from an international to a national crisis. We live in fear of misapplied scientific capacity to-day and we shall suffer from the terrors of economic and political incapacity tomorrow. No doubt the Government have capable talent, and to spare, at their disposal in order to develop and to improve many of the suggestions which have been made. Some of those suggestions have been partially embodied in the Bill and some, unfortunately, have not found their way therein. They are all attempts to deal more fundamentally with the financial and economic problems which confront us at the present time. These measures involve the necessity for courage, imagination and will, qualities which, unfortunately, have not been too obvious in the Government which we have to-day.

The most that has been attempted in the Bill, in addition to dealing with tax dodgers, to which reference has already been made by the Minister, is an effort to get back a fraction of the excess profits which ought never to have been made; in other words, to get some sort of refund or rebate from the social pickpocket. It will be generally agreed that there has never been so mean a Finance Bill at a time of such great need and of opportunities of the magnitude of those which confront us to-day. The Government have undoubtedly brought us well on the road to chaos and a new barbarism. The Finance Bill is a culmination of weakness and error in world government. These have culminated in a financial statement unprecedented in peace time and in the history of this country. For those reasons, and because of the failure of the Government to provide in an adequate and organic way for dealing with this situation, I have pleasure in seconding the Amendment.

5.18 p.m.

I deplore the situation in the House this afternoon. There are hardly any Members in the House present at the Third Reading of a Bill which loads this country with a financial responsibility of nearly£1,000,000,000. I am sorry that so few Members are present. I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer and my right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Financial Secretary to the Treasury upon the manner in which they have carried this Bill through. The Bill imposes upon the productive enterprises of this country a greater burden than has ever been proposed before, except during the Great War. I am glad that my right hon. Friend and the Financial Secretary to the Treasury have given attention, as far as is consistent with the necessities of the financial year, to suggestions of a practical and businesslike character at every stage of the Bill. My old hon. Friend the Member for Mansfield (Mr. C. Brown), whom I always regard as one of the most cheerful personalities in this House, has taken the opportunity of developing his ideas of a new social and financial structure. It was just before your Ruling, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, and the hon. Member escaped marvellously in bringing into his speech so much of the social structure that he would like to substitute for the financial proposals of my right hon. Friend.

The industry of this country must bear the main burden of this immense Measure of public finance. We recognise that the burden is heavy and that a great amount of hard work must be put into the adjustment of our productive enterprises at every phase. At the same time—

On a point of Order. The hon. Member has called attention to the lack of Government supporters on the benches opposite. May I draw your attention to the fact that there arc not 40 Members present?

Notice taken that 40 Members were not present; House counted; and 40 Members being present

The observation made by the hon. Gentleman opposite in regard to indirect taxation imposed by the Finance Bill must be taken into consideration with the security that is provided for the people of this country by that Bill. We could produce adequate arguments in this House and in the country for the laying of the foundations of peace in Europe by the measures which have been taken for the strengthening of our defence organisation. A pathetic picture has been presented of the old lady drinking her solitary cup of tea upon a romantic moorland in Derbyshire, but I think she would realise that the provisions of this Finance Bill give her security to drink her cup of tea in comfort. The same thing may be said of the old man smoking his pipe. How could he enjoy his pipe of tobacco with any sort of pleasure if he felt that the possibilities of war were hanging over him, to be realised in the course of the next few months? His Majesty's Government have done well in the provisions and in the finances of this Bill. In spite of the burden which it imposes, the Bill commends itself to the sound common sense of the country. We have to make provision on a gigantic scale to safeguard the security of our people. Hon. Gentlemen opposite are always making speeches about the virtues of Democracy; the Bill is a testimonial to the efforts of the Government to safeguard Democracy in Western Europe.

As to tax evasion, it is true that there has been evasion of taxation in the past, but I am very pleased indeed that my hon. Friends on this side of the House have agreed to the measures taken in the Bill to prevent what an hon. Gentleman opposite described, in very polite language, as the social pickpocket, profiteering at the expense of the genuine taxpayer. I am glad that that practice is to be stopped, so far as it is possible to stop it by the provisions of the Bill. I very much hope that evasion of taxation will be substantially reduced in extent and that the honesty of the taxpayer will be vindicated in the eyes of our people.

The Bill is a tribute to the foresight and thought of the Government. I deprecate intensely observations made on the other side that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is responsible for bringing us this heavy load of financial responsibility. That kind of argument is of no use in this House. If we were to produce similar arguments against hon Gentle- men opposite, what a catalogue of infirmities could be presented to us here, at any hour of the day. If hon. Gentlemen opposite had been allowed to continue to increase the National Debt as they were doing in 1931, what would have been the condition of the National Debt to-day? It would have been a matter of national bankruptcy long before we had reach this stage. I am proud to think that the Bill has passed through its various stages with so much satisfaction at all times.

I have not intervened for a moment on the subject of motor car taxation. The hon. Gentleman who is so vocal about it no doubt understands that taxation much more vividly than I do. The Bill is an admirable presentation of the public finances for the year. It pays full regard to our national responsibilities and security, and on that ground I believe that every member who supports the Government will congratulate the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Financial Secretary upon what they have achieved.

5.27 p.m.

In the speech of the hon. Member we have had a fine example of whistling to keep up your courage as well as a great deal of wishful thinking. I doubt whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer sees much ground of confidence for peace in the Measure which is now before us. There is much more ground for terror in this Bill than there is for confidence, so far as peace is concerned. One is bound to be struck when one examines the Bill by the fact that its dominating characteristic is its huge provision for expenditure upon armaments. I do not believe that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is dancingly glad at expenditure of that kind, and he no doubt looks upon it in a more doleful way. He would be glad if he could materially reduce that expenditure. I doubt whether he even feels that sense of security because of the expenditure, that the hon. Gentleman mentioned.

I may say, in parenthesis so to speak, that I am no financial expert, but when I look at the figures—they are like huge mountains—of what is being spent on armaments, I am terrorised as to the immediate future as well as to the more distant future. The Bill is remarkable for the large amount that is provided for rearmament, but it is not alone in that. Anyone who has studied the Budgets for 1913–14 to the present time will have been impressed with the fact that in every Budget since that time, even during the period of economy on the Fighting Services, large provision has been made on account of the Fighting Services, and on account of payment of the National Debt consequent upon the last War. I have seen it suggested, and I am sometimes inclined to agree, that the modern industrial side of capitalism must invest in waste. If the sum embodied in the Finance Bill for rearmament were spent on public services, if it were spent in order to extend the social services—

The hon. Member is now referring to prospective expenditure. We must keep to what is in the Bill, that is, the raising of money necessary for existing expenditure.

I do not want to go very wide, but the present industrial system could not stand, and hon. Members and financiers outside would not allow it to stand, the same expenditure on public services as is provided for rearmament. I have been looking up the main items of some of the Budgets of the past. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has to carry an amazing burden from the last War. Between 1923 and 1937, a sum of£1,666,000,000 had to be provided for the Fighting Services, and that amount, of course, has been increased by now. In the present Finance Bill we are increasing the National Debt. I am sure that the Chancellor does not share the rosy optimism of the hon. Member for Moseley (Sir P. Hannon) about that increase, because since 1923 the debt has cost this country£4,430,000,000. I am sure that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, burdened as he has been from the last War with a debt of£7,000,000,000, does not look forward with any optimism or gladness to an increase in the National Debt. At the rate provided in the present Finance Bill and under the present Budget proposals, at least£1,000,000,000 will be added to the debt of this country.

Royal Assent

Message to attend the Lords Commissioners.

The House went and, having returned

Mr. SPEAKER reported the Royal Assent to—

  • 1. Charities (Fuel Allotments) Act, 1939.
  • 2. Adoption of Children (Regulation)Act, 1939.
  • 3. Local Government Amendment(Scotland) Act, 1939.
  • 4. Unemployment Insurance Act, 1939.
  • 5. Access to Mountains Act, 1939.
  • 6. Civil Defence Act, 1939.
  • 7. Patents and Designs (Limits of Time) Act, 1939.
  • 8. Marriage Act, 1939.
  • 9. Marriage (Scotland) Act, 1939.
  • 10. Marriages Validity Act, 1939.
  • 11. Hall-marking of Foreign Plate Act, 1939.
  • 12. Wheat (Amendment) Act, 1939.
  • 13. Ministry of Supply Act, 1939.
  • 14. Coast Protection Act, 1939.
  • 15. London Government Act, 1939.
  • 16. Dundee Corporation Order Confirmation Act, 1939.
  • 17. Dundee Harbour and Tay Ferries(Superannuation) Order Confirmation Act, 1939.
  • 18. Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Congleton) Act, 1939.
  • 19. Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Margate) Act, 1939.
  • 20. Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Matlock) Act, 1939.
  • 21. Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Hailsham Water) Act, 1939.
  • 22. Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Luton Water) Act, 1939.
  • 23 Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (South Kent Water) Act, 1939.
  • 24. Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (York Water) Act, 1939.
  • 25. Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Newhaven and Seaford Water) Act, 1939.
  • 26. Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Corsham Water) Act, 1939.
  • 27. Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Burnham and District Water) Act 1939.
  • 28. Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Slough) Act, 1939.
  • 29. Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Swaffham Water) Act, 1939.
  • 30. Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Heywood and Middleton Water Board) Act, 1939.
  • 31. Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Oxford) Act, 1939.
  • 32. South Shields Corporation (Trolley Vehicles) Order Confirmation Act, 1939.
  • 33. St. Helens Corporation (Trolley Vehicles) Order Confirmation Act, 1939.
  • 34. Southend-on-Sea Corporation (Trolley Vehicles) Order Confirmation Act, 1939.
  • 35. Sea Fisheries (Tollesbury and West Mersea) Order Confirmation Act, 1939.
  • 36. North West Midlands Joint Eectricity Authority Order Confirmation Act, 1939.
  • 37. Oswestry Corporation Act, 1939.
  • 38. Tynemouth Corporation Act, 1939.
  • 39. Bognor and District Gas and Electricity Act, 1939.
  • 40. London County Council (Money) Act, 1939.
  • 41. Southern Railway Act, 1939.
  • 42. Croydon Corporation Act, 1939.
  • 43. Saint Peter's Chapel Stockport Act, 1939.
  • 44. Droitwich Canals (Abandonment) Act, 1939.
  • 45. Merthyr Tydfil Corporation Act, 1939.
  • 46. South staffordshire Waterworks Act, 1939.
  • 47. Jarrow Corporation Act, 1939.
  • 48. Stalybridge Hyde Mossley and Dukinfield Transport and Electricity Board Act, 1939.
  • 49. Tiverton Corporation Act, 1939.
  • 50. Sunderland Corporation Act, 1939.
  • 51. Stroud District Water Board, etc., Act, 1939.
  • 52. Milford Haven and Tenby Water Act, 1939.
  • Finance Bill

    Question again proposed, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."

    I think it would be found that for the past 13 or 14 years the whole of the national income has been required to find the money for the Debt services and the fighting services. There we have a gigantic burden, a burden which we have carried in the past, and which is being greatly enlarged by the present Budget proposals. A financial system which has to provide so much money for the fighting services must economise on other services. Inherent in this huge expenditure that we have provided for armaments in the present financial year is an inevitable economising on the social services. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, speaking on the Finance Bill last year, maintained that we were financing our social services to a satisfactory degree, that the rich were making a contribution to the poor in the way of taxation, and that that taxation was passed over in the form of social services. Hon. Members during the Debates on this Finance Bill have, over and over again, said that we are making large provision for social services, and that the rich are, as it were, paying the poor. I have no doubt that the Chancellor would not change the statement he made last year. I am not a financier, but I have done a little arithmetical calculation, and the deductions that I reach from that calculation are that it is not true to say that the social services provided for under the terms of the Finance Bill are financed by the rich, and that there has been no appreciable redistribution of the wealth of the nation from those who possess the most to those who possess the least.

    I notice that there have been many complaints recently that the provision being made for the social services is robbing British family life of its dignity and independence, that it is discouraging thrift on the part of the working classes, and that it is something that the rich give from their tables to the poor. The figures entirely disprove that. Study of the statistics shows quite clearly that the social service system in this country amounts largely to a system of compulsory thrift imposed on the working classes. It is Parliament that is now making the working classes save by making direct contributions to the health services and unemployment services and, under this Finance Bill and previous Finance Acts, making the working classes pay by means of indirect taxation. If indirect taxation and direct contributions are taken into account, I suggest, the social services in this country are indeed financed out of the coppers of the working classes, compulsorily taken from them by Measures passed in this House. I do not want to give too many figures, but the Chancellor will know better than I the exact details of the huge increase in taxation to-day as compared with 1913–14. During these Debates we have had references to the gigantic leaps that have been made as regards the amount of money taken by the State from the citizens of this country. Expenditure has leaped up at an alarming rate.

    I have done my best to examine the items which have led to this gigantic increase. I confess that I have been able to get only a fairly complete picture for 1937–38. Then we levied, in round figures,£919,000,000. In 1913–14 we had a Budget figure of£197,000,000. There has been an increase of£722,000,000. That is a tremendous increase. Often I have heard it said that that increase has been due to the burden of the social services. An analysis of the latest figures that we can get shows clearly that the same burden that is overweighting this Budget—that is, expenditure on armaments and the cost of war—has been the cause, right through recent years, for the increases that have taken place. Expenditure on the fighting Services—this is without the loan—in 1937–38 amounted to£197,000,000. In 1913–14 it was£77,000,000, so there has been an increase of£120,000,000. Expenditure on the War Debt in 1937–38 was£226,000,000, as compared with£24,000,000 in. 1913–14, showing an increase of£202,000,000—and that Debt is going up. Compare that with the expenditure on such a social service as education, which in 1937–38 amounted to£63,000,000, and in 1913–14 to£17,000,000—an increase of£46,000,000.

    The deduction to be made from those figures is that if you do not include the loan expenditure, 43 per cent. of the increase has been due to expenditure on the fighting Services and the National Debt; if you include the loan expenditure, 53 per cent. of that increase has been due to expenditure on the fighting Services and the Debt charge. The percentage of the total increase for which education is responsible is 6.32 per cent. Anyone who examines the whoel series of figures, even in the peace-time period—the economy period, as far as the fighting Services are concerned—will see that the two main causes of the burden have been the expenditure on the Debt services and the expenditure on the fighting Services. I would say to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, though I expect he will fundamentally disagree with me, that there is yet no clear definition as to what is a social service. I do not want to be misunderstood, but I cannot think that unemployment benefit is a social service. If it is anything at all it is a salvage service. Unemployment benefit adds nothing to the normal standard of life. It is not an endowment.

    The hon. Member has made very gallant attempts to set out what he wanted to say, and I have been loth to interrupt him, but I am afraid that I must do so now. He must remember that he can only discuss what is in the Bill, which deals with the method of raising the money.

    I find it very difficult, and all my hon. Friends seem to find it difficult.

    That, apparently, may be the intention. I understand that there is a desire to pass on to other business, but the Finance Bill is an immensely important instrument. I want the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as he did last year, to give the House an analysis of the incidence of the Budget on the social services in relation to armaments, and to Debt charges which he is increasing this year. What are the percentages of some of the most important services in relation to the total cost of the Budget? In the last financial year the Fighting Services took 21 per cent., old age pensions 4.9 per cent., widows and orphans, 1.7 per cent., and housing 1.87 per cent. The percentage with regard to social services is less to-day than it was in 1913–14.

    I must warn the hon. Member that I do not think I can let the Chancellor of the Exchequer answer those questions. We are not discussing the Budget. The Budget was finished long ago, and this is the Finance Bill resulting from it.

    I do not intend to pursue that matter any further, and I will summarise some of the other facts. Behind the Finance Bill are the facts relating to the lives of our people, to taxation and to expenditure. Although we are taxing our people more than ever, the wealth of this country has increased. It used to be said that money could fructify only in the pockets of individuals. We are learning from Finance Bills of this kind that money can fructify even in the pocket of the State. We have learned at least one lesson, that money taken from the citizens does not necessarily cripple the economic activities of the nation. It largely depends in the end upon what the money is expended. Here, unfortunately, we have to spend it on a sea of waste. Since 1914 the number of people enjoying higher incomes has increased by six and a half times, and the amount involved within the range of the Surtax is two and a half to three times the amount that was involved in 1913–14.

    I have been very interested in his figures, but I would suggest to the hon. Gentleman that in 191373x2013;14 Supertax or Surtax stood at a different level from what it stands to-day.

    I have here all the figures relating to incomes of£2,000 up to£100,000 and over. There has been a redistribution in the ranges of higher incomes, but there has not been any redistribution worth talking about in the total income. There are more salaried men with£5,000 a year than there were 10 or 12 years ago, and there are still a few people with incomes of£100,000 a year. There has been a redistribution between those ranges, but the stark naked fact that stands out is that, in spite of the social services, and the increased production, there is a vast amount of poverty, misery and malnutrition in this country, and the Finance Bill that does not face up to that problem is not facing up to the most important problem that has to be faced at the present time in this country. I am sorry that I have trans- gressed the Ruling of the Chair so often, and I would have liked to have given the Chancellor of the Exchequer a number of other figures, but, in view of your Ruling, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, I shall be content with those that I have given him.

    6.9 p.m.

    I hope that I shall be in order in the brief remarks that I have to make, and if I am not, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, I hope you will attribute it to my inexperience, and I shall accept your Ruling. In the discussion on the Finance Bill the other night the Chancellor of the Exchequer was twitted with having agreed to the general view of this House to retain the duty on patent medicines although he had desired to abolish it. That criticism should not go forth, without a very direct challenge. The doctrine which was laid down that night was entirely opposed not only to the practice of this House but to the whole principle of constitutional government on the democratic basis which we on this side of the House cherish. If we look back on our history we see that Pitt withdrew his Budget. Coming to more recent times, not only did Disraeli withdraw or seriously modify his Budget of 1852, but he was invited from the other side of the House to withdraw it entirely and reconstruct it, and for a very good reason, because Sir Charles Wood, Ms predecessor, withdrew and resubmitted his Budget no fewer than three times. In the memory of Members of this House, in the Budget of 1888, one of the strongest Chancellors of the Exchequer of the day, Goschen, withdrew his Van and Wheel tax. I was not in this House at the time, but I think I am correct in saying that he was a Chancellor of the Exchequer not remarkable for his resilience—

    I am wondering, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, whether this is in the Finance Bill, and you would give a Ruling on it?

    I think that so far I can say that the hon. Member is referring to what is in the Finance Bill.

    I have been looking through the Finance Bill and I can find no reference to it.

    Coming down to our own times, there was a Chancellor of the Exchequer who seriously modified his National Defence Contribution. I am speaking for this side of the House when I say we immensely appreciate the act of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in accepting the general wish of this House to retain the tax on patent medicines. It is retained, and it is to have further consideration, so I would ask him to look at it from this point of view—in a time like this, we cannot willingly sanction the withdrawal of any tax which is a source of revenue. I hope that in the consideration he is to give to this point in the year that is before us, he will not only retain the tax, but will more markedly raise it. If there is one commodity more than another which should yield a substantial measure of revenue to the Exchequer, it is the trade in patent medicines, where the profits are so colossal. If he could even carry that duty so as to embrace cosmetics, I believe that it would be welcomed from all sides of the House.

    Although much has been said about the formidable character of this Finance Bill I think the most formidable Chapter is to be found on page 10 of the Financial Statement which the Chancellor of the Exchequer presented to this House in April, where he showed the extraordinary growth in local expenditure. I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to give special attention to—

    The hon. Member is getting wide of the scope of the Debate, as we are no longer on the Budget.

    I bow to your Ruling, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, and I will not resume that point because it is obviously out of order, I only wish to say that, if opportunity had afforded, I should have asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer to pursue that question and I hope to raise it on another occasion.

    6.14 p.m.

    I shall not detain the House very long, but I want to deal with one or two points in the Finance Bill, which has undergone vast changes since it was first introduced in the House of Commons. One wonders whether it is the identical Finance Bill which was first introduced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He has had to retract on several things, and to climb down as it were, and I believe that the Bill will go down in history as the most changed Finance Bill that has ever been brought before the House of Commons. When I heard the Chancellor of Exchequer make his speech on the Budget I was hopeful that when he came to the Finance Bill he would have some regard to equality of taxation, because he stated that much of the expenditure was because of armaments that had to be produced in order to meet the national emergency. I thought from that statement that those who got orders for armaments, such as are mentioned in Part III of the Finance Bill—Armament Profits Duty—would be adequately dealt with, and that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would protect the public against excessive profits being made out of the distress of the country. What do we find in Part III? We find, first of all, that the Armament Profits Duty is to be levied on only a part of the excess. Substantial profit is allowed up to 6, 8 or 10 per cent. If that is not a very handsome profit, I do not know what is. Then the State comes along and says: "For every£100 that you make in excess of that, we will take£60." Surely, in a time of national emergency the whole of that excess profit ought to come back to the State.

    Here is the worst loophole. A firm cannot be charged with the Armament Profits Duty until they have received orders to the value of£200,000. We have been trying to patch up loopholes in the Income Tax law, knowing very well that many of these people do all they can to evade what they ought to pay. What will happen is this kind of thing. The Government must be able to prove that these people have had an order for£200,000, before they can be called upon to pay the Armament Profits Duty. I can imagine everyone who gets an order from the Government doing all he can to avoid paying anything, and there will be as much dodging as ever there has been in the whole history of taxation. Every effort will be made to prove to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that that man has not had an order for£200,000. I believe he will have the greatest difficulty in getting anything from his Armament Profits Duty. I had hoped that in this national dilemma everything would have been done to provide against a thing like that. The Chancellor of the Exchequer and his Friends have deluded the country with the idea that they were going to prevent these excess profits. It is not fair to the general public to tell them that they are really doing something which needs to be done. I believe it was the hon. Member for Aylesbury (Sir S. Reed) who said, when we were dealing with excess profits, that to his knowledge one firm had made 42½ per cent. I believe I am right in that statement.

    The hon. Member went on to ask that something should be done to deal with that matter in the Finance Bill.

    I am dealing with armament profits, Part III of the Finance Bill. I hope I am in order.

    The hon. Member has been in order so far, but he must not go outside the Finance Bill.

    I accept your Ruling. I like to be a good Parliamentarian. I am very sorry that after the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he was going to stop up all these loopholes and make the burden easier for those who can least bear it, the rich are to have even greater riches. Hon. Members talk about taking more and more from the rich men, but we are faced with the fact that every year the Surtax payers increase in number, that the volume of wealth grows greater and the disparity between the rich and the poor becomes far wider. What I am concerned about is that in a time of grave national emergency, when we all realise that we must be prepared for an emergency, it is wrong that those who get armament orders should be able to make any profit out of the State. I am sorry that the Chancellor of the Exchequer did not go the whole hog, fix a profit, say, of 5 per cent. and say that, whatever the orders, small or big, the profits should go back to the State above that percentage. If he had done that one would have realised that he was really doing something. I join with other hon. Members in condemning this Finance Bill as being one of the worst we have ever had.

    6.24 p.m.

    We are now approaching the end of the Finance Debates of the year. They started with the Budget Statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in April, in which he budgeted for an expenditure of some£1,300,000,000. Of that amount he proposed to find£940,000,000 out of revenue and£380,000,000 by borrowing. Since the Budget we have had a great number of additions. We started on the very day after the Chancellor of the Exchequer had made his speech by an expenditure for the purposes of conscription, when the Prime Minister announced that a tax on armament profits would be instituted. Then there are the Supplementary Estimates which have just been issued. Supplementary Estimates for the Army amount to a sum of which£79,000,000 is to be borrowed, while on the Air Supplementary Estimates the amount is£39,500,000. There are various other items to come.

    In view of the complicated provisions of these various Supplementary Estimates, and the transfer of expenditure which is involved in the Estimate regarding the Ministry of Supply, it is not very easy for the ordinary Member to thread his way through the various complicated items and to find what is the actual position at the present time. Therefore, I want to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to do something to lighten our darkness. I want him to tell us, quite specifically, what is the bill which the country has to face up to date? How much does he now propose to raise by budgetary means, and how much from loans? I cannot expect him to be a prophet, and I cannot ask him to say what will, in fact, be the budgetary provision and what will be the amount to be provided out of loans when this year comes to an end; but I think we ought to ask him to give some attempted forecast of what he expects in the immediate future. If he does foresee that in addition to the Supplementary Estimates that we have already in our hands there will be further sums which will be rendered necessary by the policy of the Government, he might give us not only the position up to date but some indication of what he expects will arise in the immediate future with regard to the prospects of the year.

    Whatever the statement may be, so far as I can make out the£400,000,000 mark of borrowing is already left far behind We are well on the way to the next century, and it may well happen that before the year we shall have passed it. It is perfectly clear that an enormous sum is going to be added to the National Debt in this calendar year. In view of that fact, I have listened with a great deal of incredulity to statements made in discussions on this Finance Bill in its various stages that the Chancellor of the Exchequer in order to balance his Budget cannot afford to do without this, that or the other piece of taxation. I regard that and have regarded it from the first as so much conjurer's patter, because it has no relation whatever to the facts. The Chancellor of the Exchequer may say: "I do not want to part with any revenue, because it will all help the finance of the year," but he cannot pretend that any particular piece of taxation yielding, perhaps,£2,000,000, is going to balance the Budget. The Budget is not balanced. It is unbalanced not by a small sum but by a figure that is colossal, and it must impose upon the future very grave and almost insuperable problems.

    In the earlier stages of the Finance Bill, when it was in order to do so, I put forward certain suggestions. I am not going to incur your displeasure Mr. Deputy-Speaker, by dealing with those suggestions to-day. I will only say that the Budget as it stands, without the adoption of any of the proposals that I made, may be getting the Chancellor of the Exchequer out of a difficulty at the moment, but it is leading the country into a very grave future, from which none of us at the present time can see the way out. That brings me to one tax which the Chancellor of the Exchequer added after the Prime Minister's statement, and that is the tax which is generally known by the initials, A.P.D. That tax was announced by the Prime Minister as a counterblast to the conscription of life. I described it when it was introduced, and I repeat my description to-day, as a political and not a revenue tax. As I said then, it cannot be called a revenue tax, because we have not had any estimate of what it is likely to produce, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer has taken no account of it whatever in the financial provisions of the year. It is very doubtful whether it will produce little or anything in years to come.

    One of the reasons why I view this tax with great doubt and suspicion is that there are so many ways of getting out of it. I will enumerate a few of them, but before I do so I want to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to be so good as to elucidate a matter which was left in doubt last night on the Report stage of the Bill. It came up rather unexpectedly and the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Supply gave what appears to me a very unsatisfactory answer. I have had an opportunity since the Debate of talking to one or two hon. Members not of my own party but of the party opposite, and I find that they take a similar view to that which I take. Unless the Chancellor of the Exchequer can put a different complexion on it I am bound to say that in large sections of the House the position appears to be thoroughly unsatisfactory.

    The matter concerns sub-contractors, and as the House very well knows it is sub-contractors who under the present conditions are frequently able to make very large profits out of armament contracts. A sub-contractor, of course, is a person who takes a contract from the direct Government contractor. The contracts of a direct contractor are earmarked by the Minister of Supply; he can say in the course of a particular year, that this armament contractor has had a certain number of contracts and has taken in receipt for them over£200,000; therefore he comes within the provisions of the Bill. When you come to a subcontractor the Minister of Supply has, of course, no direct dealings with him, and, therefore, the Bill imposes on the direct contractor the obligation of revealing the contracts that he has put with subcontractors. That must be so; it is the only way in which it can be done.

    The question which arose last evening was this: In some cases the armament firm in giving out a sub-contract has, say, to buy 10,000 tons of steel; some of which is used for armament purposes and some for other purposes. Take again the case of a man who is going to manufacture motor lorries for the Government. That motor manufacturer will be making motors for private use, and will be using more or less the same kind of material for the two things. He will give an order to a sub-contractor for some material, part of which will go into the armament contract and part into private manufacture. The armament contractor, according to the Bill, has to specify the armaments which he gives out to these sub-contractors, and the question which was put from various sides of the House was this. Suppose the main contractor asking a sub-contractor to supply certain materials, part of which is to be used for armaments and part of which is not; what is he going to say to the sub-contractor? Is he going to say that the whole of it or none of it or some part of it is armament contract and some part is not? One hon. Member said that the matter was still more complicated because an armament contractor may contract with one subcontractor for steel and with another subcontractor for steel. Will they be put into a common pool?

    The answer which the Minister of Supply gave appears to be, and my view is confirmed by the view taken by other hon. Members, that if a contractor gives out a contract to a sub-contractor and only part of it is going to be used for armaments, he will write the whole off; he will not call it an armament contract at all. If that is the right interpretation—I notice that the Chancellor of the Exchequer shakes his head and I only tell him that that was the impression which the answer of the prospective Minister of Supply conveyed to the House. If it is true then it would reduce the whole of this Armament Profits Duty, as far as sub-contractors are concerned, to a farce. Any armament contractor giving out a contract to a sub-contractor of£10,000 for steel has only to add another£1,000 for some other purpose to write the whole contract off from the sub-contractor's point of view. That was the interpretation which many hon. Members put on the Minister's words, but I am quite sure the Chancellor of the Exchequer will be able to show that it is not the case. I shall be glad if he is able to do so.

    But there is no doubt that a great many firms will escape altogether through the mesh of this£200,000 limit. In the first place, the Bill confines the tax to those who get£200,000 worth of Government orders in one year. It does not include local authority orders, and a man can escape the tax if he finds he is getting near the£200,000 limit in any one year by postponing the sending in of his bill. That may inure to his disadvantage in the next year, but if we are coming to the end of the period quite clearly it will enable him to escape the tax altogether.

    The first way in which profits will escape this tax is through the£200,000 limit. The second escape which the Bill provides is by choosing for the standard rate of profits a period when at any rate there had already been a considerable inflation of profits by armament contracts. The year 1937 is one of those years in which it can be demonstrated that considerable profits were already made, and in that way a large part of the profits which armament firms have made will escape when the question of excess profits comes to be determined. The third method is one which I have endeavoured to explain several times. It is very complicated, and I do not propose to explain it over again. I will say this, that even when a man is brought in because he has over£200,000 worth of work during the year, even when he has got an excess profit on his armament work, it is generally believed that he has to pay 60 per cent. of the increase. That is not in the least so because of the hokey-pokey method of measuring that part of the excess which is due to armament profits. Not only I but members in other parts of the House have pointed out the illusory method of reaching the proportion which brings about the actual result.

    The net result of these three means of escape is that this tax will produce very small revenue indeed. I think this taxation ought strictly to be described as a sheep in wolf's clothing. It has got teeth, but they will not bite, In my opinion it is not intended to be a real wolf; it is intended to impress the public. I doubt whether it will deceive the public because they are not now so easily gulled as they were in days gone by. The fact is that in the opinion of many hon. Members the Budget is a sham. It is a sham because it produces no balance in the national account. The taxation of war profits is a sham because, as I say, the wolf will not bite, and the Finance Bill which we are now bringing to an end will create in my opinion grave and almost insuperable problems for the nation in the future. It is a method of escaping a present difficulty, but it will create much greater difficulties for the nation in the future. It is in keeping with the character and record of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. We have seen this exemplified in other fields before now. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, as we know, has great forensic gifts; he has the power of making a large number of people think that black is white. This power may get him out of a number of temporary difficulties but it does not inure to the benefit of the country as a whole. This reminds me of what Euripides put into the mouth of Medea when she was addressing Jason:

    I will venture to paraphrase it rather loosely by rendering it in this way:
    "I have found that when a wrongdoer has a crafty tongue it only gets him into increasing trouble."
    Unfortunately, the "increasing trouble" will fall not only on the right hon. Gentleman, but on this great country and its people in years to come. I am satisfied that this Finance Bill will be looked upon in future days with increasing repugnance, and because I do not want my colleagues or myself to share in the obloquy which will fall in the future I shall ask them to vote for the Amendment that the Bill be read the Third time this day three months.

    6.44 p.m.

    I am sure everybody in the House greatly enjoyed the classical allusion of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence) at the end of his speech. I suppose that if I am a sheep in wolf's clothing it is only to compare me with Jason, the person who fetched the Golden Fleece. I hope to get some contribution in gold as the result of my efforts. I am not sure whether the right hon. Gentleman was casting himself for the part of Medea whose relations with her own children and other relatives were so shocking that, on the whole, I would sooner be Jason.

    As the right hon. Gentleman has just observed, three months come into the story. The hon. Member for Mansfield (Mr. C. Brown), who moved the Amendment, reminded us that it is just three months ago since the Budget was presented, a long three months to some of us, but the right hon. Gentleman's enthusiasm for these matters is such that he wants to postpone the final disposal of this matter for another three months. For my part, I am content with the three months. I should like to begin by expressing a sentiment which will certainly be shared by the whole House. I want to say how greatly I have been helped by the unfailing skill and persuasiveness of my right hon. and gallant Friend the Financial Secretary. It is a very difficult thing to carry through the three months of the Budget as far as the Financial Secretary is concerned, for he has to come in and take up everything which it happens the Chancellor either cannot do or does not want to do. As the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Edinburgh was once Financial Secretary, I think he will recognise that my right hon. and gallant Friend has acted very ably throughout the proceedings on the Finance Bill.

    I want to deal briefly with some of the many points that have been put, and I will deal first with two points raised by the right hon. Member for East Edinburgh. He raised two very important questions which I ought to deal with now, for there are a great many people outside the House who would also like to have a clear statement on them. The right hon. Gentleman asked me first about the situation which now reveals itself in the light of various Supplementary Estimates which have been presented since the Budget was opened and the Finance Bill introduced. If I give three or four figures to the House, I think hon. Members will see what is the extent of the change. I budgeted for a total expenditure this year, partly from revenue and partly from loan, which may be stated in round figures as£1,320,000,000. I will give round figures because they are so much easier to follow. The scheme, as presented in the Budget, was that£942,000,000 should be got from revenue—it is not quite accurate to say that it is all got from taxes, because there is also a small supplementary sum which is not, strictly speaking, taxation, although it is revenue—and£380,000,000 from borrowing. The two figures add up to£1,320,000,000, which is the amount which I imagined we might have to find in one way or the other this year. At the time when I presented those figures to the House, I assumed that the total defence expenditure this year would be£630,000,000, of which£250,000,000 was to come from taxation and£380,000,000 from borrowing. By the time we reached the Budget, I had already realised, in view of the acceleration of and increase in rearmament, that the earlier estimate of£580,000,000 to be spent on Defence this year was less than what the figure would be, and the House may remember that I then mentioned that I thought the figure would be, on present indications,£630,000,000, and it might be more. That was a consideration which I had to face when we began the proceedings three months ago.

    The House will want to know how far the Supplementary Estimates affect the matter. They affect it quite materially. For the sake of completeness, I will refer not only to the Supplementary Estimates for Defence, but also to a much smaller matter, although it is important, the Supplementary Estimates for the civil side. I made a provision in the Budget for a possible increase in expenditure on account of Civil Supplementaries to an amount of£5,000,000. That is a practice which is comparatively recent. It used to be assumed that we should get savings in various ways on some Supplementary Estimates which we might safely set against any increased demands under other items as far as expenditure was concerned, but I thought it wiser to provide at any rate something as a provisional sum in addition for Civil Supplementaries, and I took the amount of£5,000,000. I still think we shall get some savings under some civil heads. For instance, the numbers of the unemployed—and we are all glad of this as far as it goes—are falling very fast, and we may hope for substantial savings on that account. I think there are indications that some of my Revenue Estimates may well be exceeded, because undoubtedly there is on the whole an upward swing in many directions. Still, as against that, I have to report to the House—it is convenient that I should state it now—that the Civil Supplementaries that have been now presented amount to more than£14,000,000. Of that, I have already provided£5,000,000, and I expect and hope that we shall be able to provide for the balance in the way I have described; but for purposes of completeness, I have made that statement about the Civil Supplementaries.

    I come now to the much more serious matter of the Defence Supplementary Estimates. When I introduced the Budget and made my statement, the decision had already been taken, and announced, to double the Territorial Army, but it is quite correct to say, as the right hon. Member for East Edinburgh reminded us, that the actual announcement had not been made about military training and all that that involves. Naturally, I knew it was coming, but it had not been announced, and indeed, the full working out of what it might cost necessarily was not complete then; but largely with that in mind, I informed the Committee that I felt that the£580,000,000 for Defence this year would be exceeded, that I thought it would be exceeded by a good deal and that it would be at least£630,000,000, and might well be more. It was on that ground that, then and there, in the Budget, I provided for another£20,000,000 from revenue in order to help to make some contribution. It has now been shown that the additional Defence Supplementaries will be very considerable, and I am not surprised that the right hon. Member for East Edinburgh has asked for a plain statement, because it is a little difficult to disentangle one or two figures as at present presented. I will put the matter as plainly as I can.

    The Supplementary Estimates, in round figures, will involve additional expenditure of£80,000,000 for the War Office,£40,000,000 for the Air Ministry, and£30,000,000 for the future Ministry of Supply. Those three figures added together amount to£150,000,000, so that the total expenditure on Defence for the year, which I treated at an earlier stage as being£580,000,000, and which I warned the House might well turn out to be£630,000,000, will, in view of these figures, be£730,000,000. That is the result of adding together the Supplementary Estimates now presented to Parliament. Perhaps it is right to add that there may be some Supplementary Estimates, not of course of that size, for the Ministry of Health and Air-Raid Precautions. I merely mention that as a future prospect, although it is not a really serious part of the business.

    How does that alter the situation? It alters it in this way. I had assumed, or rather invited the House to contemplate with me, that there would be on Defence an expenditure this year, one way or the other, not of£580,000,000, but£630,000,000. I had said plus£50,000,000,and it now turns out that I was well warranted in saying it might be more, because the actual addition is not plus£50,000,000, but plus£150,000,000. Consequently, the£380,000,000 which we contemplated borrowing would not be, when added to the revenue contribution, enough to meet the bill, and the amount of borrowing that will be involved will not fall far short of£500,000,000. I think I have made the figures plain to the House, as it is my first duty to do. I may be asked at once, as regards that borrowing, how it is proposed to face that very formidable total.

    I hope I have made it plain. One has to keep the two things in mind at the same time and, therefore, it is a little difficult. On the one hand, we have to divide the total expenditure of the year as between that which is supplied by revenue and that which is supplied by loan. Of course, that takes together civil expenditure, interest on debt, and everything else. I have passed from that, and I am now saying that the amount which will need to be borrowed this year in order that we may cover the whole of our expenditure of all sorts and kinds, adding the borrowings to the revenue, will be an amount not far short of£500,000,000.

    I am not quite clear on one point. The right hon. Gentleman said that he was going to raise£230,000,000 from taxation for Defence. Since then he has spoken of the total as being£730,000,000, of which£500,000,000 will be borrowed. I do not understand why it is£500,000,000 instead of£520,000,000.

    As the hon. Member will remember, the reason is this. Originally we intended to get£230,000,000 from revenue, but in view of the fact of the rising expenditure, in my Budget speech I proposed additional taxation which we are now voting in the Finance Bill, and that additional taxation carries the amount raised from revenue for defence to£250,000,000.

    I come to the really important question for the immediate future, which is, how is this very heavy burden to be carried? This is not the first time we have discussed it, but it had better be looked at now afresh in the light of the enlarged expenditure. In one matter we are better placed than we might have been, and it is most important to appreciate what. an advantage this is. For reasons which I will not attempt to describe now, it will be possible to raise a very considerable part of this money— I dare say£150,000,000, or something of the kind—by the issue of Treasury Bills. That is connected with the fact that there has been a loss of gold and a gain of sterling, with the result that the Treasury Bills which would otherwise be outstanding have been redeemed to an exceptional extent, and we shall be perfectly justified, and indeed, it will meet the needs of business, if quite a considerable portion of this amount is raised by an increase in our floating debt. It will be the balance, and only the balance, therefore, which will have to be raised by the issue of a regular loan.

    It is, of course, apparent to everybody that only a part of this year's loan requirements can be met by the floating debt. It is quite wrong to increase the number of Treasury Bills abnormally, and consequently, at the appropriate time, it will be necessary to ask the general investor, great and small, to contribute on the most abundant and generous scale, out of his savings and resources to a new defence loan. I will only say that when the time comes to do that in the course of the present financial year I am quite confident that the nation will respond. I do not feel any doubt that it is a burden which we can carry, and will carry. I make this statement now because I wish everybody to appreciate what is the nature of the burden before us. I do not believe that in any part of the House there can be any feeling except that we are determined to do everything to see that it is carried out.

    I am sure that the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) will join with the general feeling on this point. I would like to take the other question put to me by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Edinburgh. It is not an easy question to answer clearly. He said, rightly, that under the A.P.D. we are seeking to get an application of this duty to the sub-contractor as well as to the direct contractor to the Crown. That, in my judgment, is absolutely essential, because I have no doubt at all that it is at least as important to pursue this matter down to the sub-contractor as it is to deal with the main contractor. Indeed, there will be cases of sub-sub-contractors. The Bill provides in Clause 25 (2) that it shall be the duty of the main contractor—we will call him A—the man who has got a contract with the Government and who has made a sub-contract to provide himself with the wherewithal to carry out the contract, to give notice to the sub-contractor, to send to him, as the Sub-section says, as soon as may be after entering into the contract, a notice stating that the subcontract has been entered into for that purpose. That is for two reasons under this scheme. First of all, it is necessary that the sub-contractor should be supplied with notice that that which he is supplying is going to be included in the performance of an armament contract, because if the sub-contractor in respect of work of this sort has sufficient receipts he, too, will come under this scheme. There is a second reason, which is that the Minister, by Sub-section (3) of Clause 25, is entitled to ask for particulars from the Crown contractor, and one of the things he will do will be to ask, "Who are your sub-contractors; have you given notice; what are the notices you have given; what are the size of your contracts?" The Minister in his turn will identify the subcontractors.

    Now, says the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Edinburgh, that is all very clear and good if the sub-contractor—call him B—is supplying A, the main contractor, with whatever it may be, the whole of which is going into the Crown contract. Then it is easy. A man dealing in gas masks makes a sub-contract with somebody to supply pieces of rubber for them, and if the whole of the payment is going into making gas masks for the Crown, the full extent is related to Crown work. A much more difficult case arises if A, the main contractor, places his orders with a sub-contractor B, and thereby gets supplies, some portion of which will go into the Crown contract whereas another part will go into private work. I have discussed this since the last occasion with my right hon. Friend who will be mainly responsible. We could not automatically let every sub-contractor out of this merely because he supplies some portion of the total for non-armament purposes. If we did that it might even provide a way of escape, and it would be wrong and unfair. It will, therefore, work in this way: The contractor, under the Sub-section, must give his notice in writing to the subcontractor that the contract has been entered into for that purpose, whether it is also entered into for other purposes or not. The Minister, by means of his power to ask for particulars and obtain information, will get on to the contract and will ascertain, no doubt by examining books and documents, what proportion of the supply which the contractor is getting from the sub-contractor is going into the Crown contract and what proportion into private work. That will enable the first figure, which will be the total amount of the sub-contract, to be corrected, and by that means it will be possible for the subcontractor to know how he is building up his total of armament work. At the same time the Minister of Supply will keep a check on it, so that it will be possible to include all the work which is being used for Crown work and exclude that which is for others.

    That is provided in Clause 25. I think, therefore—and I have discussed this with my right hon. Friend— that we have there the basis of a perfectly workable scheme. It is a matter that should be known that we do not intend to work in a way which will let out sub-contractors. To sub-divide supplies between one contractor and another is not always easy. No doubt there will be commodities—coal has been given as an example—where really it will be so impossible to sub-divide and say, "This goes into the Crown contract and this part goes into another," that it is necessary to have the power that Parliament is giving to the Minister to exclude certain articles of common use which cannot be identified by common labels. I cannot hope to have satisfied everybody, but I hope that I have made this plainer than it was before. We really have tried to think this out and devise a means which will be satisfactory.

    I should like to raise a point on the question of coal. When a contractor has worked out a contract and an examination is being made of his books in order to find out whether he has an excess profit or not, costs will be taken into account, and part of the cost will be the amount of coal that he claims to have consumed in relation to that contract. Will it not be possible in estimating the cost of a particular contract to estimate at the same time the amount of coal that is being used or supplied by the coalowner in order to meet that contract?

    I am not quite sure that I follow the point which the hon. Member for West Fife has put, but the hon. Gentleman may take it that certainly there will have to be a proper allocation of all expenses, coal and everything else, for the purpose of arriving at the profit.

    I would like to pass now to some observations of a rather more general character. The hon. Gentleman who moved the Amendment and the hon. Member for Aberavon (Mr. Cove) both referred to the contents of the Finance Bill as being required for a variety of purposes, of which social services is one, the great cost of interest on debt is another, and the defence expenditure is a third. I must not discuss the justification for spending money on this particular object or that, because that would be out of order, but I would like to repeat what I said three months ago, because there is no doubt about it, that the nature of this Finance Bill, the size of the burden that it is seeking to carry is, of course, mainly governed by our needs for defence. I heard the hon. Member for Aberavon, in a very interesting speech, almost argue that because the degree, the amount, the percentage of expenditure on defence had gone up there was some complaint to be made on the score of social services. The hon. Member is an educationist, and, really, he ought to use percentages a little more carefully than that. It is perfectly true that the amount we are raising this year for purposes of defence is huge, an enormously increased figure—more is the pity—than the figure of 1913–14 which he took. That is true, but, it does not help anybody to find out whether we are none the less spending more on social services than we were, and no use of fractions or percentages will help in the least.

    The plain fact, and one of the most remarkable facts in the situation, is that in spite of this perfectly enormous burden which we are carrying for purposes of defence, we are this year spending something like£50,000,000 more on social services than was spent out of revenue seven or eight years ago. It is a very remarkable thing that we should be able to carry both burdens. I am most anxious that we should do so, but you cannot argue that social services are being starved because the money being spent on them has not gone up at the same rate as expenditure on armaments. At that rate you have to say that if you were involved in a war, which meant doubling your expenditure on armaments, you must, at the same time, double your expenditure on social services.

    The broad way to look at it is this— and I emphasise this, because the very large totals for borrowing which are, no doubt, most serious and naturally fill the eye, arc very likely, if we are not careful, to mislead us and prevent a proper view of the operation through which we are going this year. What we are doing this year is this. We are contemplating and arranging the expenditure of no less a sum than£1,400,000,000 and that£1,400,000,000, to the extent of more than£900,000,000, is to be raised out of taxes this year. Show me another country in the world which, when it had that enormous burden to face, could find£900,000,000 out of its day-by-day taxation. That is the true proportion. I agree that the remaining figure of borrowing is an extremely large figure. At the same time it is a complete misrepresentation of the position not to recognise that we here in this country to-day are taking this main burden on ourselves as we have to do, and that we are thereby putting very heavy burdens upon the people of the country. I will not in the concluding Debate on this Bill, go over the well-worn ground of how these taxes are raised as between different classes of the community, but I am certain that

    Division No. 241.]

    AYES.

    [7.21 p.m.

    Acland-Troyle, U.-Col. G. J.Blair, Sir R.Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n)
    Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.)Bracken, B.Chapman, A. (Rutherglen)
    Albery, Sir IrvingBraithwaite, Major A. N. (Buckrose)Chapman, Sir S. (Edinburgh, S.)
    Alexander, Brig.-Gen. Sir W.Braithwaite, J. Gurney (Holderness)Christie, J. A.
    Allen, Col. J. Sandeman (B'knhead)Briscoe, Capt. R. G.Colman, N. C. D.
    Apsley, LordBroadbridge, Sir G. T.Colville, Rt. Hon. John
    Aske, Sir R. W.Brooke, H. (Lewisham, W.)Conant, Captain R. J.E.
    Baillie, Sir A. W. M.Browne, A. C. (Belfast, W.)Coolie, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.)
    Balfour, G. (Hampstead)Bull, B. B.Courtauld, Major J. S.
    Balniel, LordBurton, Col. H. W.Craven-Ellis, W.
    Baxter, A. BeverleyButcher, H. W.Croft, Brig.-Gen. Sir H. Page
    Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.Campbell, Sir E. T.Crooke, Sir J. Smedley
    Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h)Cayzer, Sir C. W. (City of Chester)Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.
    Beit, Sir A. L.Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)Crowder, J. F. E.

    when this thing is fairly reviewed by impartial critics they will say, "Whatever else may be wrong with this Budget, it is not wrong on the ground that it has failed to get the proper contribution from those who may be expected to be able to make that contribution."

    I would say this in conclusion. It has been noticeable—and hon. Gentle men have thought it right to go through the Parliamentary forms to make it noted—that the Budget Debates this year have not aroused the same heat or attracted the same amount of attention as Budget Debates in some previous years. As Finance Bills go, this Bill has had a fairly easy passage. I do not consider that I have the slightest reason to excuse myself or to apologise because the Finance Bill has been modified in the course of its passage through the House. I do not know what Debates on the Finance Bill are for, if not for the purpose of having presented, from different points of view, arguments which go to show that the original scheme of taxation may need to be changed here or there. The main provisions of the Budget stand as I presented them, and I think the quiet reception which the Budget has received has been due to two circumstances. It has been due, first, to the universal know ledge that these measures are necessary. The second explanation of its quiet reception is that there is among our people all of us together, without any distinction of sides or parties—in all honesty, a determination—which is found in this House just as in the country at large— that, come what may, we will find what is needed for the liberty and the safety and the strength of our country.

    Question put, "That the word' now' stand part of the Question."

    The House divided: Ayes, 206; Noes, 141.

    Cruddas, Col. B.Knox, Major-General Sir A. W. F.Ross, Major Sir R. D. (Londonderry)
    Culverwell, C. T.Lamb, Sir J. Q.Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge)
    Denman, Han. R. D.Lees, Sir J. W.Royds, Admiral Sir P.M. R.
    Denville, AlfredLees-Jones, J.Salt, E. W.
    Donner, P. W.Leighton, Major B. E. P.Samuel, M. R. A.
    Dorman-Smith. Col. Rt. Hon. Sir R. H.Levy, T.Schuster, Sir G. E.
    Drewe, C.Lewis, 0.Shakespeare, G. H.
    Dugdale, Captain T. L.Liddall, W. S.Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar)
    Dunean, J. A. L.Lindsay, K. M.Shepperson, Sir E. W.
    Dunglass, LordLipson, D. L.Shute, Colonel Sir J. J.
    Eastwood, J, F.Llewellin, Colonel J. J.Simmonds, O. E.
    Edmondson, Major Sir J.Lloyd, G. W.Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A,
    Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.Locker-Lampion, Comdr. O. S.Smith, Bracewell (Dulwish)
    Ellis, Sir G.Loftus, P. C.Smith, Sir R. W (Aberdeen)
    Elliston, Capt. G. S,Lyons, A. M.Smithers, Sir W.
    Emmott, C. E. G. C.MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G.Snadden, W. McN.
    Erskine-Hill, A. G.MeCorquodale, M. S.Southby, Commander Sir A. R. J.
    Evans, D. 0. (Cardigan)MaoDonald, Rt. Hon. M. (Rosa)Spens, W. P.
    Fildes, Sir H.MacDonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'I'd)
    Findlay, Sir E.Macdonald, Capt. P. (Isle of Wight)Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)
    Fleming, E. L.McKie.J. H.Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)
    Fox, Sir G. W. G.Macquisten, F. A,Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- (N'thw'h)
    Fremantle, Sir F. E.Magnay, T.Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
    Furness, S.N.Makins, Brigadier-General Sir ErnestSutcliffe, H.
    Fyfe, 0. P. M.Manningham-Buller, Sir M.Tasker, Sir R. I.
    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir J.Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.Tate, Mavis C.
    Goldie, N. B.Markham, S. F.Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.)
    Gridley, Sir A. B.Marsden, Commander A.Thomson, Sir J. D. W.
    Gritten, w. G. HowardMeller, Sir R. J. (Mitcham)Thorneycroft, G. E. P.
    Guest, Ma]. Hon. 0. (Cmb'rW'll, N.W.)Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)Thornton-Kemsley, C. N.
    Hacking, Rt. Hon. Sir D. H.Mitchell, H. (Brentford and Chiswick)Titehfield, Marquess of
    Hambro, A. V.Morgan, R. H. (Worcester, Stourbridge)Touche, G. C.
    Hannah, I. C.Morris-Jones, Sir HenryTrain, Sir J.
    Hannon, Sir P. J. H.Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.)Tree, A. R. L. F.
    Harvey, T. E. (Eng. Univ's.)Nall, Sir J.Tryon, Major Rt. Hon. G. C.
    Haslam, Henry (Horncastle)Neven-Spence, Major B. H. H.Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.
    Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton)Nicholson, G. (Farnham)Wakefield, W. W.
    Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.Nicolson, Hon. H. G.Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (H)
    Hely-Hutchinson, M. R.O'Connor, Sir Terence J.Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend)
    Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P.Orr-Ewing, l. L.Wardlaw-Milne, Sir J. S.
    Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan-Pickthorn, K. W. M.Warrender, Sir V.
    Higgs, W. F.Pownall, Lt.-Col. Sir AsshetonWatt, Lt.-Col. G. S. Harvie
    Holmes, J. S.Radford, E. A.Whiteley, Major J P.(Buckingham)
    Horsbrugh, FlorenceRaikes, H. V. A. M.Williams, Sir H. G. (Croydon, S.)
    Howitt, Dr. A. B.Ramsay, Captain A. H. M.Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G.
    Hunter, T.Ramsden, Sir E.Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
    Hurd, Sir P. A.Rankin, Sir R.Womersley, Sir W. J.
    Hutchinson, G. C.Rathbone, Eleanor (English Univ's.)Wood, on. C. I. C.
    Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir T. W. H.Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin)Wragg, H.
    Jarvis, Sir J. J.Rawson, Sir CooperWright, Wing-Commander J. A. C.
    Jennings, R.Reed, A. C. (Exeter)York, C.
    Jones, L. (Swansea W.)Reed, Sir H. S. (Aylesbury)Young, A. S. L. (Partick)
    Keeling, E. H.Remer, J. R.
    Kellett, Major E. O.Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.

    Kerr, Sir John Graham (Sco'sh Univs.)Ropner, Colonel L.Mr. Munro and Captain McEwen.
    Kimball, L.Rosbotham, Sir T.

    NOES.

    Adams, D. (Consett)Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill)Hardie, Agnes
    Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.)Day. H.Harris, Sir P. A.
    Adamson, Jennie L. (Dartford)Dobbie, W.Hayday, A.
    Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.)Dunn, E. (Rather Valley)Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)
    Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)Ede, J. C.Henderson, J. (Ardwick)
    Banfield, J. W.Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty)Henderson, T. (Tradeston)
    Barnes, A. J.Edwards, N. (Caerphilly)Hills, A. (Pontefract)
    Barr, J.Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H.Hopkin, D.
    'Bartlett, C. V. O.Foot, D. M.Isaacs, G. A.
    Beaumont, H. (Batley)Frankel, D.Jenkins, A. (Pontypool)
    Bellenger, F. J.Gallacher, W.Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath)
    Benn, Rt. Hon. W. W.Gardner, B. W.John, W.
    Bevan, A.George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)Jones, A. C. (Shipley)
    Brown, C. (Mansfield)George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey)Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.
    Buchanan, G.Gibbins, J.Kirby, B. V.
    Capo, T.Graham, D. M. (Hamilton)Kirkwood, D.
    Charleton, R. C.Green, W. H. (Deptford)Lansbury, Rt. Hon. G.
    Chater, D.Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A.Lathan, G.
    Cluse, W. S.Grenfell, D. R.Lawson, J. J.
    Clynes, Rt. Hon. J. R.Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.)Leach, W.
    Cocks, F. S.Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)Lee, F.
    Collindridge, F.Griffiths, J. (Llanelly)Leonard, W.
    Cove, W. G.Graves, T. E.Leslie, J. R.
    Cripps, Hon. Sir StaffordGuest, Dr. L. H. (Islington, N.)Logan, D. G.
    Daggar, G.Hall, G. H. (Aberdare)Lunn, W.
    Dalton, H.Hall, J. H.(Whiteshapel)Macdonald, G. (Ince)

    McEntee, V. La T.Richards, R. (Wrexham)Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)
    McGhee, H. G.Ridley, G.Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)
    MacLaren, A.Riley, B.Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)
    Maclean, N.Ritson, J.Thorne, W.
    Mainwaring, W H.Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)Thurtle, E.
    Marshall, F.Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens)Tinker, J. J.
    Maxton, J.Salter, Dr. A. (Bermondsey)Tomlinson. G.
    Messer, F.Sanders, W. S.Viant, S. P.
    Montague, F.Seely, Sir H. M.Watkins, F. C.
    Morgan, J. (York, W.R., Doncaster)Sexton, T. M.Watson, W. MeL.
    Morrison, Rt. Hon. H (Hackney, S.)Shinwell, E.Welsh, J. C.
    Nathan, Colonel H. L.Silkin, L.Westwood, J.
    Naylor, T. E.Silverman, S. S.Whileley, W. (Blaydon)
    Noel-Baker, P. J.Simpson, F. B.Wilkinson, Ellen
    Oliver, G. H.Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (C'thn's)Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)
    Owen, Major G.Sloan, A.Williams, T. (Don Valley)
    Paling, W.Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)
    Parkinson, J. A.Smith, E. (Stoke)Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)
    Pearson, A.Smith, Rt. Hon. H. B. Leos- (K'ly)Young, Sir R. (Newton)
    Pethick-Lawrence, Rt. Hen. F. W.Smith, T. (Normanton)
    Pritt, D. N.Sorensen, R, W.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.

    Quibell. D. J. K.Stephen, C.Mr. Mathers and Mr. Adamson.

    Bill read the Third time, and passed.

    House Of Commons Members Fund Bill

    Order for Second Reading read.

    7.28 p.m.

    I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."

    Last February, a Motion was moved by my hon. Friend the Member for East Lewisham (Sir A. Pownall) that this House approved of the recommendation of the Departmental Committee upon Members' pensions and favoured the initiation of legislation to carry those recommendations into effect. That Motion was carried by a substantial majority— a larger majority than that which has just been obtained on the Third Reading of the Finance Bill. As Leader of the House, I felt it to be my duty to carry out the intention of the House by introducing a Bill. Accordingly, I now move the Second Reading of this Bill. The Motion to which I have just referred was subjected to a free vote of the House, and the same procedure will be adopted to-night. I want to take the opportunity of repeating on this occasion assurances which I gave to hon. Members who are supporters of the Government and who may take a different view from that which I am going to put to the House, that no reproach will be levelled against them or any resentment felt against them, if they express their disagreement. I regard this matter, not as one of public policy, but as a domestic issue among the Members of this House. The Bill raises no new point of a general character. The arguments for and against the Second Reading of the Bill, I think, are just the same as those that were used for or against the approval of my hon. and gallant Friend's Resolution, and, therefore, I do not think it is necessary for me to go over the old ground again or indeed to take up much of the time of the House, but there are one or two points on which I should like to say a word or two.

    First of all, there was a general feeling that there should be no charge upon public funds in respect of the provisions contained in this Bill, and some concern was expressed lest, not a direct, but an indirect charge might accrue in consequence of the fact that the statutory deduction which is to be made from Members' salaries might be set off against liability to Income Tax. Under existing legislation, I think there is little doubt that that would be the result, that this statutory deduction could be set off against liability to Income Tax and Surtax. But to meet that we have introduced a special provision in the Bill, in Subsection (4) of Clause 1, which expressly provides that this statutory deduction shall not be allowable as a set-off against Income Tax. That, therefore, makes it absolutely clear that the provisions of the Bill involve no charge at all, direct or indirect, upon public funds, and, that being so, it is, as I said, clear that no question of public policy is here involved. Nobody can say that hon. Members, in voting for this Bill, are voting for some advantage to themselves at the expense of the taxpayer. The taxpayer is really not concerned in this Bill at all. It is a purely private or domestic arrangement, as I have described it, under which Members themselves will, if the Bill becomes law, contribute a fixed amount out of their salaries for the purposes which are set forth in the Bill.

    The only reason for bringing in a Bill at all, apart from the question of Income Tax, to which I have already referred, is the necessity for making the deduction from Members' salaries compulsory. I know that some of my hon. Friends would have much preferred that it should not be compulsory but voluntary; but the report of the Departmental Committee, in paragraph 12, on page 8, points out the reason why it seemed to them, as it also seems to me, to be essential, for the purposes of this scheme that the deduction should be statutory and compulsory and should not be left to the individual wishes of hon. Members. The Departmental Committee said:
    "Apart therefore from any other objection which might be felt to reliance on optional contributions, the necessity of assuring to the management of the fund a known and permanent income over an indefinite period points, as a practical measure, to placing a statutory obligation on all Members of the House of Commons to contribute to the fund."
    On the question as to whether Members would have preferred to have this deduction voluntary or statutory, there may be differences of opinion. I should have thought there was something to be said for the point of view that it is really less embarrassing to have a definite amount fixed by Statute and applicable to everybody than to leave it to individual Members to consider whether they can find reasons why they should give more or less than somebody else, and always to be uneasy lest somebody else might be making a contribution in comparison with which their own might not seem to be adequate or appropriate. I know that my own feeling would be that I would much rather have the amount fixed by Statute. But I think the overwhelming reason is that which is pointed out by the Departmental Committee, that unless you know for certain what the income of the fund is going to be, you make the task of the trustees who have to administer it almost impossible. It seems to me that in such circumstances you might find that the fund would work out in such a way that when the trustees had fixed an annuity for a particular individual on certain assumptions as to the income of the fund, and subsequently, for one reason or another, the fund did not reach the amount which they had expected, they would then have to reduce the annuity which had already been granted. It is quite certain that the possibility of a reduction in the amount already given to a particular individual would destroy his sense of security, and, I should suppose, would therefore destroy to a great extent the value of the help which would be given.

    I notice that my hon. Friend the Member for Central Leeds (Mr. Denman) is troubled in his mind because a statutory deduction is to be made from a non-statutory salary. I can understand that there may be a number of objections to this scheme, some of which, at any rate, may seem to be very forcible to those who hold them, but I cannot think that my hon. Friend's objection is a very real one. Indeed, it seems to me to be somewhat pedantic. Nobody surely can be in any serious doubt as to the permanence of Members' salaries, which have now been in existence for 28 years, and, although they have suffered some alteration, are still payable. I would point out to my hon. Friend, as indeed, I am sure, must already have been in his mind, that no new principle will be introduced by this statutory deduction from a non-statutory salary. Income Tax is a statutory deduction, and, so far as I am aware, nobody has yet been troubled by any doubt as to the propriety of allowing salaries still to be merely voted instead of being fixed by Statute on that account.

    Another point that I would like to make in connection with the Bill is in regard to its Title and the nature of the provision which it makes. The report of the Departmental Committee is described as a report on "pensions for Members of the House of Commons," but this Bill is not a pensions Bill. It is a House of Commons Members Fund Bill, and hon. Members will see, if they look through the Bill, that the word "pension" nowhere occurs in it, except in allusion to pensions under the Ministers of the Crown Act, and in fact in the provision for the payment which is prescribed in Sub-section (2) of Clause 1 there is nothing about pensions. What it speaks of is the power of the trustees to make out of the fund periodical or other payments. Therefore, that may cover specific grants as well as periodical payments. In fact this is not really a pensions Bill, and it would be quite inappropriate to compare what we are doing here with any pension scheme which is in force in the Civil Service or in any other institution. What we are doing here is to provide a fund which is to be raised by contributions from hon. Members from which payments can be made in certain circumstances to certain individuals by trustees appointed by the House, to whom wide discretionary powers are given, but those discretionary powers are not described as powers to grant pensions, but merely as powers to make either periodic or other kinds of payments.

    The Bill follows the recommendations of the Departmental Committee except in two particulars. One of them is the provision which maintains the£12 deduction as being liable to Income Tax, and the other is to be found in the First Schedule, where some departure has been made from the recommendations of the Committee, in that the Bill provides that£75 of private income in the case of an ex-Member or£50 of private income in the case of an ex-Member's widow is to be disregarded in considering the limit of the amount which may be paid out by way of periodic payment to any beneficiary. Otherwise the Bill is in strict accord with the recommendations of the Departmental Committee.

    Yes,£75 a year. Therefore, if a man has£75 a year, he may still get, in addition to that,£150 if the trustees decide that that is the amount which should be paid to him, and similarly with regard to the widow, only in her case it would be£50 and not£75. I am not going to enter into arguments against the views of those who would take objection to the proposals in this Bill. I respect those who have objections of a substantial kind, and I recognise that this is a matter on which there may very well be differences of opinion, but for myself I still feel, as I did last February, that underlying the political differences between various sections of this House there is something which we all have in common, and that is a regard for the House as a corporate body and as part of the constitution of this country. And so the thought that we can ensure by the provisions of this Bill that, so far as funds will permit, a fellow-Member whose voice and face have long been familiar to us shall not, when he leaves this House, be reduced to poverty because he is too old or too infirm to support himself—that thought makes a strong appeal to me. It appeals to me not only because it is in accord with our common feelings of humanity, which, I think, are always most pained by the distress of those with whom we have come into close contact in the course of our lives, but also from the conviction that the provisions we are making in this Bill will, when they become law, strengthen the attachment of future Members to this House and will increase the respect which it already enjoys.

    7.47 p.m.

    The lines of cleavage in regard to this Bill do not follow the ordinary party lines,and, therefore, I do not speak as the representative of the party, but I would say to the House that my hon. Friends behind me support this Bill, and, indeed, will welcome it. The Prime Minister has moved the Second Reading in a very brief speech, and in that I will try to imitate him, but I would take this opportunity of saying to him that I appreciate and very greatly respect the motives which have led him to recommend this Measure to the House. Frankly, he has not followed the line of least resistance. After all, we know that it must have meant a certain amount of embarrassment to him as Leader of a party, but he has thought it was the right thing to do, and has felt that in the circumstances he had a major obligation as Leader of the House. I support this Bill because it seems to me to be a sensible and a natural proposal at the stage which this House has now reached. It seems to be a piece of inspired common sense, such as this House does show at the right moment, as it always has done for centuries. The fact is that this House now expects that about one-third of its Members shall be able to give the whole of their time to this House from 11 o'clock in the morning until 11 o'clock at night, and our work could not be carried on in Standing Committees if they were not there, and we should not be able to do it if it were not that there is in the House now a new representative type of Member who has no resources outside the House. Such Members are found on both sides of the House.

    When it was decided to increase the salary of Members to£600 a year it was because of that change in our composition and because the House took the view that every Member of Parliament ought to be secure of, at any rate, the primary needs of life. To make provision for your old age and provision for your wile if you die is a primary need of life, and although the salary has been increased to£600 a year, nevertheless that primary need cannot be provided out of that salary. Most Members come here when they are about 40 years of age—not much before—and no insurance company will give a Member, under any contribution he can make, a provision which would cover a pension in his old age. It cannot be done. Therefore, we come back to the fact that if this provision is to be made at all the only way is by a fund like this, to which we all make a small contribution.

    The Prime Minister knows the hardness of life for a number of Members' here. He has not referred to it, but he knows it. He has information which tells him. I shall not enter into individual cases, but every Member who has inquired knows that Members have lost their seats after they are 60 years old and have bitterly regretted that ours is not an insured occupation, because they would gladly have accepted unemployment benefit. There have been other Members who have died in harness, and there has been some sort of collection for the widow, and the matter has come to an end. If Members are thinking of what is right for the dignity of this House I say that that spectacle is a far greater slur upon the dignity and the self-respect of the House than the establishment of a fund to which we all contribute on equal terms. Let me say this to hon. Members who may not know the full facts. It is sometimes thought of Members on this side that most of them get pensions from their trade unions, and that by the provision we propose here the trade unions will be freed from that obligation. I have made careful inquiries and the facts are that not 20 per cent. of the Members on this side have a pension from a trade union, co-operative society or any other organisation.

    The Prime Minister has seen the argument against this Bill, and I can see it too. I can understand a Member saying," Why should I want to provide pensions for Members who have been all their lives opposing what I want to see done? [Hon. Members: "No"] Well, that seems to me a natural reaction. [Hon. Members: "Nothing to do with it"] Then I will come to the Prime Minister's view. I think he was right in saying that this House is, above all else, a corporate body, and I believe that the country appreciates us most when we act as a corporate body, as we did during the Abdication and as we may have to do in the immediate future. I believe that is our secret, and I notice that other Parliaments which looked like ours never learnt the secret—and where are they? If we are a corporate body I would point out that every corporate body in the land nowadays regards it as its duty to see that its members shall not end their lives in indignities and penury, and I believe it will be found that this Bill will strengthen this House as a national institution.

    7.55 P.m.

    In the absence of my right hon. Friend who would have liked to be here to support the Prime Minister I want to associate myself and my hon. Friends with the principle of this Bill. It is not exactly a Bill of the terms and character that we originally thought desirable, but we are conscious that in the difficult circumstances of the case probably this is the only kind of Bill that is likely to get through this House. Some hon. Members have, no doubt, as I have, received very critical postcards from constituents and other people in various parts of the country criticising us for, at a time like this, giving Parliamentary time to a Bill of this character. It has been suggested, and suggested perhaps with some reason, that while the problem of increasing the old age pension remains unsettled we have no right to tackle a problem of this kind, but when the country and the public realise the character of the Bill I am sure they will see that it is not an unreasonable proposal and should not take up an undue amount of time. It has been suggested, sometimes I agree by persons not too sympathetic to this institution, that it is a club, the best club in London. If that is said on the social side, of course it is a criticism that we have reason to resent, but I think we can accept it that the House of Commons has the club spirit, that there is a corporate feeling that membership of this House engenders, and that we like to feel that we belong to an institution which puts upon all of us common obligations.

    I suggest that that is the spirit which is behind this Bill. We are standing shoulder to shoulder to help each other. The mast majority of the Members of this House will not benefit by these provisions, and that, after all, is the best argument for the Bill—that the majority are standing by the few, and that the whole House feels it to be an obligation that no Member who has served the House faithfully for a reasonable period should be put in a position of poverty. An important point was made by the right hon. Gentleman in pointing out that membership of this House deprives members of the insurance system, deprives them of the advantage of old age pensions and any other provision to which an ordinary member of the working class is entitled. In those circumstances surely this is a reasonable proposal, and I do not think any critic can say with judgment that a Bill of this kind is a waste of Parliamentary time. I believe that with the good will that most of us are prepared to show it will go through all its stages rapidly and, I hope, become an Act of Parliament before we adjourn for the Summer Recess.

    7.58 p.m.

    I beg to move, to leave out the word "now," and, at the end of the Question, to add "upon this day three months."

    I am indeed grateful, as all my hon. Friends are grateful, to the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister for his categorical assurance that this Bill will be left to a free vote of the House. Without such an assurance the suggestion that it will be a free vote would be entirely illusory. Indeed, it is to a certain extent illusory even as things are, for several of my hon. and right hon. Friends have told me that though they are entirely against the principles of this Bill nevertheless they have never voted against the Prime Minister and do not intend to do so now. However much my right hon. Friend may claim, and justly claim, that he is introducing this Bill as the Leader of the House, he is nevertheless the Leader of the party and of the Government, and that fact inevitably raises in the minds of his supporters in relation to any Bill which he may introduce the question "Love me, love my dog "I am sorry but I do not like this dog of my right hon. Friend's and, since he has been good enough to say that any of us who like may shoot it, my hon. Friends and T intend to assassinate it to-night in the Division Lobby.

    To catalogue all the objections to the Bill it would be necessary to write a book. The problem is how, within the compass of a few words, most effectively to oppose it and expose it. The ideal of Parliament is that it should freely represent the nation's opinion as it changes from time to time. Any Measure which, like this Bill, tends to give Members of Parliament or their backers a vested interest in their seats strikes at the very roots of its freely representative character. We have been striving most elaborately to convince the public, and to convince ourselves, that we are not in any sense laying any charge on the public in connection with these grants to ex-Members or their widows which may arise under the Bill. Yet why should we not lay a charge on the public? If it is a good premise that a Member of Parliament is of value to the country, and if we decide that something should be done about it, it is a public and not a private obligation that he should be. maintained in reasonable circumstances; and if we decide to do anything about this we should put a higher value upon ourselves and we should have the courage to stand on this principle.

    Further, I should like to ask, why is it unseemly that an ex-Member of Parliament should be "going about on his uppers"? Because of the public position which he has held. It is, therefore, a public and not a private interest to prevent it. The question of the unsuitability of the time at which this Bill is being introduced was argued at length when the matter was before the House on a Private Member's Motion in February. The arguments mostly centred round the question whether or no it is proper that this Measure should be introduced at a time when we are telling the country that old age pensions cannot be increased. I will only add this comment. It is surely a paradox, when each of us almost every day finds himself having to write to his constituents and explain to them how this or that Measure which affects a public interest cannot be got through this Session as it would hold up the business of the State, nevertheless we seem to be able to find time to attend to things which affect our private affairs. One could easily multiply reasons. It is sufficient to say—and I say it with very great regret about any Measure introduced by the Prime Minister—that this Measure reflects in miniature all the elements of sloppy sentimental, half-thinking which have brought the finances of democracy all over the world to their present condition. We shall have to be made of a good deal harder stuff than this before we are going to lick the Germans. The argument that it is only a comparatively small matter, and, therefore, not worth making an issue about, can only be likened to the argument of the young woman in Dean Inge's story who was called upon to account for a baby whose existence required justification, and who sought to justify it on the ground that it was only a tiny one.

    There is a point I should like to make with regard to the previous Debate. Speaking on this matter last February, the Chancellor of the Exchequer said:
    "The scheme contemplated here, which has been worked out by the Committee with so much care, is a scheme which would begin to operate from the time when the necessary Act of Parliament was passed."
    I should like to emphasise the words "so much care," because the Committee which worked out this scheme did not discover that it was a pension fund. It was left to the House to discover it after the event. Later on the right hon. Gentleman said:
    "I have had occasion to be in close consultation with those who have drawn up the scheme and, in order to see how it worked, one naturally had a draft of the Bill prepared."— [Official Report, 2nd February, 1939; col. 463, Vol. 343]
    That implies that the Government, in drafting a Bill to work in concert with a scheme of the Committee, had at least exercised equal care. I hope my right hon. Friend will not mind if just there I part company with him, because I do not agree that the Government or the Committee did think this thing out with care. I think it has been done in as sloppy a way as anything that has come under my notice, and it was necessary to improve it from time to time as new light was shed on the subject. In the course of the Debate last February my hon. Friend the Member for Central Leeds (Mr. Denman), and also my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Argyll (Mr. Macquisten), called attention to the question whether or not Income Tax would have to be paid on the contribution to be made by Members under the Bill. I understood from the Prime Minister that that addition to the Bill was only made after the Debate last February. If I am right in that assumption, it is just another instance of the fact that in working out this scheme those who are responsible for it have not thought out their problems, and this very important matter was discovered only at the last moment.

    If my hon. Friend will read the report of the Select Committee which inquired into it, he will find that they knew all about it. They said that in their judgment it was a right matter to have a deduction from Income Tax. We have changed that in the Bill.

    There was some basis for my being in doubt because it seemed that the Chancellor himself was in doubt about it in February. When the point was raised he said:

    "That may be a point to be raised when the Bill is being considered."
    Later on, when the hon. and learned Member for Argyll raised the same point, he said:
    " That is essentially a matter to be considered during the discussion of the Bill."— [Official Report, 2nd February, 1539; col. 468, Vol. 343]

    I was talking about the Report of the Select Committee, and not the Chancellor's statement.

    As I listened to the Prime Minister introducing the Bill, I found it a little difficult to recognise him. I was not a Member of the House two years ago when salaries were raised, and I do not know what undertakings, express or implied, were given at that time when salaries were raised that there should later be a pension scheme. But I got the impression, listening to my right hon. Friend, that he was in some sense fulfilling some sort of pledge or undertaking, because it seemed to me that this cloak—this mantle of passing legislation which is satisfactory to the party opposite does not sit naturally on the shoulders of my right hon. Friend. This fashion for catering to the political principles and personal needs of the party opposite suggests to my mind the touch of a vanished hand. [Interruption] I should be very glad to be enlightened further upon it because, after all, this is, as has been pointed out by my right hon. Friend, an entirely domestic matter. There is no question of public policy involved, and, therefore, there can be no possible reason why any of us should not freely discuss among ourselves across the Floor of the House any undertakings or arrangements which may have been come to either as regards the genesis of the Bill or the time at which it is introduced.

    I am reluctant to stress the fact that this Measure commands the support of the party opposite. But with great regret I feel that I must question the good judgment of my right hon. Friend in introducing at this time a Bill which seems to a large number of his supporters wholly unnecessary, and quite contrary to their political philosophy. There is one final thought with which I should like to leave the House, one governing consideration in the light of which I think it is proper that we should consider the Bill. Over the portals of a class room at my old school there were written the words:
    "Someone must be last, but no one need be."
    So it seems with the business of being a Member of Parliament; 615 persons must be Members of Parliament, but no one need be. If anyone cannot afford to become a Member he need not stand for election. If he does, I say let him have the courage to take the consequences of his own decision.

    8.13 p.m.

    I beg to second the Amendment.

    I can understand a considerable number of arguments being put forward for a pension fund for Members of Parliament being made a national charge or, on the other hand, for a benevolent scheme, but a scheme which merely consists of a compulsory benevolence appears to me to be the worst way of meeting a matter which I am prepared to admit ought to be met in some way or another. This scheme is inopportune at present, it is unwise and it is unnecessary. I do not want to go into the question of old age pensions except to say that, at whatever period or at whatever time Parliament considered some form of pensions scheme for themselves, I should have thought, as a humble back-bencher, that the best way of getting misrepresented, the best way of making Parliament look rather foolish was to adopt such a scheme within a week of the decision that an increase of old age pensions could not be proceeded with. I know quite well that many of the arguments that may be put forward on the platform outside will be completely unfair arguments in regard to that. The ordinary person in the country does not examine with the utmost detail Parliamentary Debates in the way that persons used to do a number of years ago. If they did I am certain that the cry would go up from one end of the country to the other that hon. Members of this House can find time to look after themselves but can find no time to deal with important matters which at present are kept off, because of lack of time; or, indeed, to deal with the conditions of the poor.

    In the course of his speech, the Prime Minister said that this was not a question of dealing with public funds but simply of Members of Parliament, as a corporate body, dealing with their own money. I rather wonder. Two years ago, without getting any particular mandate for so doing, we raised our salaries from£400 to£600. Does any hon. Member here really imagine that unless we had granted ourselves that increase, this scheme for pensions would have been brought before the House? At that time, most painful pictures were painted to show that those who then had£400 a year were unable to exist upon it with any comfort. No Government would then have proposed to make a further deduction of£12 from the salary of those already wretched people in order to provide pensions. The present Measure arises from the Measure which was passed in that Parliament, and therefore it arises from an indirect charge upon the public purse.

    Something rather curious which arises is that, under this scheme, all of us will pay Income Tax on the full£600, including the£12 which is to be set aside for our future benefit. I suppose that every scheme which pretends even mildly to be insurance receives money upon which Income Tax has been paid, and then any money which is set aside for some purpose is usually because of some ascertainable gain. Under this scheme very few people would seriously say that there is any ascertainable gain from this£12, on which people will have paid Income Tax and which is to be set aside simply for their future benefit and to be used at some future time. If any scheme of this character were passed through the House that the money is to have Income Tax paid upon it, persons who at any time depart from the House ought to get some benefit from it, means test or no means test.

    Then we come to a further point. If we accept the scheme on the lines laid down in the Bill it will be, of course, a subsidising of the safe seat by the unsafe seat. Except in very special circumstances the ordinary beneficiary of this scheme must have reached the age of 60 years and must have served for 10 years in Parliament. I am not at all sure that the people with the unsafe seat can be sure of 10 years in the House, or that the people who can be assured of 10 years here are the best Members in this House. There are safe seats on the side of the House on which I sit. Some of them are represented by men without great means, but whose ability or enthusiasm has persuaded their constituencies to adopt them. The vast majority of the safe seats on this side of the House are represented by men with considerable private means. It is a pity it should be so, but it is.

    On both sides of the House there are seats for which we can rely upon the constituencies to send back Members of our particular colour. On the Opposition side of the House are many industrial seats represented by trade unionists. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Keighley (Mr. Lees-Smith) used in his speech the figure of 20 per cent. I do not know whether he meant it to be taken in that way, but I want to get it right. I suppose that one can assume that somewhere about 50 per cent., and perhaps a little over, of hon. Members on the other side represent trade-union seats. If something under 20 per cent. of hon. Members opposite get pensions, what is the argument? In regard to hardship when they retire, I do not think that hon. Members who sit for trade-union seats do at all badly.

    Quite the contrary; but I am only dealing with what the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Keighley said. There are cases of old servants of the trade unions. They have represented their unions and done a considerable amount of good in the country and in Parliament. In those comparatively few cases I do not believe that the great trade unions would allow their best servants to fall into starvation. If they did, it would be the worst argument I have ever heard against the great trade-union system.

    The right hon. Gentleman also said that there was more dignity in Members of Parliament having a scheme of this sort and coming before the trustees set up in the Bill than for them to appeal to their own party for support. Is there anything unfair in a man who has fallen on hard times in his old age, to whatever party he belongs, saying: "I have served you honourably and well, and you know it. I am in a difficulty. Will you give me a hand" There does not seem anything undignified in that. It seems better than having to submit to a means test before a number of trustees, some of whom may be completely unknown to the applicant, for assistance from funds given by persons in the House of Commons and compulsorily deducted from those per-sons, many of whom may be completely unknown to the applicant himself. If it is a question of dignity, it seems to me that many of us would rather go to the people we have served than to a compulsory charitable fund administered by people whom we had not of necessity particularly served.

    I have been assuming that something has to be done, and the very fact that this matter has been discussed, both in February and again to-night, has indicated some need for provision in the case of men of broken life or bad health. That ought to make it possible, and, indeed, easy, for a voluntary scheme to be run by the party concerned. I do not mean simply by parties in Parliament. The Prime Minister made a certain amount of play about that. He suggested that it would be absurd to have a scheme in this House by which Members of the House were voluntarily to decide how much they would put into the common fund in any particular year. I agree that, if the matter is carried out by the House itself, it ought to be a compulsory scheme, but my view is that it is not simply a question for this House. As far as we are concerned, the membership of Parliament is far more important outside this House than it is in this House merely as a corporate body. As far as we are concerned, membership of this House is a matter of pride, and teaches us to learn a great deal about other people on all sides, but our real importance is not here, but outside. It ought to be possible to have a voluntary scheme run by the parties themselves outside, which could deal with any hard case if such should arise. I feel that it is almost unthinkable, in view of the discussions we have had on this subject, that it would be impossible to have a scheme of that character if we worked at it. After this Measure is defeated, as I hope it will be, the result of the discussion would inevitably be considered by those who drafted such a scheme.

    Supposing that the voluntary scheme were unsuccessful—I think it would be successful—that would be a strong argument in favour of a national scheme. I can visualise conditions arising under the present Bill in which a sentimental appeal would be raised in the constituencies. If a Member who had represented a constituency for seven, eight or nine years was getting on in life, there might, at a time when some great national issue was involved, be a sentimental appeal, "Vote for dear old Bill just once more, and then he will get his pension" It does not seem to me that a sentimental appeal of that kind would add much to the dignity of Parliament or to the efficiency of Parliament if, when men are in poor health, or aged, or otherwise unfit for the life of Parliament, they are to be, so to speak, held up and kept going somehow in order that poor old Bill may get his pension. It would be far better to face the thing frankly and honestly and come along in a year or two and say that the attempt to establish a voluntary scheme has failed. The efficiency of Parliament is more important to the nation than it is to Parliament itself, and if it is not possible under benevolence to make some serious and successful effort to meet the needs of such people, you can then come to the State and say, "Why not provide an extra£25 or£50 which can be applied to provide this subsidy for pension needs? "thereby making it," if the necessity should arise, a truly national scheme.

    I agree with my hon. Friend who moved the Amendment that this scheme is a snobbish scheme. I believe, as I said at the start, that this matter could be met by the private benevolence of parties or, if necessary, by the State, but the scheme in its present form of compulsory benevolence is neither fish, flesh, fowl nor good red herring. It contains the vices of both the other possible schemes and the virtues of neither, and I sincerely hope that it will be heavily defeated.

    8.32 p.m.

    As this Bill is based on a Resolution which I moved in February, I want to say a few words with regard to the Bill this evening. I am not going to speak at any length, because I gave in February what seemed to me to be strong reasons for the introduction of the Measure we are now discussing. I have heard a great deal about this Measure during the last five months from my friends, not all of them very appreciative of the Resolution I moved. That is only natural, and I do not in the least complain about it. When I spoke in February I gave my reasons for the proposal, and I have noted a few points based on objections which have been raised to the Bill, with which I propose now to deal. My hon. Friend the Member for Hastings (Mr. Hely-Hutchinson) said he could write a book about his objections to the Bill. I venture to say that I could produce a much better book with my answers to his objections, and I think that possibly a few selections from it might be of interest to the House. I have not seen my hon. Friend's book, but I cannot help thinking that some of his suggestions were possibly not very happily chosen.

    It is easy to say that this is entirely a non-party matter. In a sense it is, but in a sense it is not, because, although a certain number of those who sat with me in the past might have been glad of the benefits of a Measure of this sort, I think it is generally admitted that this Measure would possibly benefit one portion of the House more than another. Some of my political friends—not friends, incidentally, all of them, in this matter— have asked why those who require assistance cannot be left to be given assistance by their societies or trade unions. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Keighley (Mr. Lees-Smith) dealt quite fully and frankly with this point in February, and he has again mentioned this evening how inquiries he has made from, I gather, the whole of his friends— not only those interested in trade unions— over 200 strong, I think I am right in saying, have indicated that less than one-fifth would have been able to fall back on funds such as those I have just mentioned. That leaves a very appreciable number, apart from those on my side of the House, and apart possibly from those who are Liberals—I know of one former Liberal Member who is in distress. Four-fifths of an appreciable party in the House—which in the years to come may either wax or wane—would have no outside help. I must say that I was delighted to hear that.

    Most of us would agree that the fewer the number of people in this House who are dependent on organisations outside, whether of employers or employés, the better it is for the House. If it is the case that a number of Members are in the position that they have to think, "If I give a vote as I want to do it might, at the end of my time in this House, be borne against me by the organisation with which I am connected," that is a strong argument for a Measure of this sort. Quite obviously, the more the House can assure the independence of a Member, not only while he is here but when he leaves the House, the better it will be.

    The point has been raised about this being a compulsory deduction. Quite frankly, I would very much have preferred that this Measure had not been compulsory at all. But, after all, we have had old age pensions for 30 years. This is not a new principle. Both the trades that I have been connected with during my life have schemes for the benefit of those who may fall by the wayside. This House has lagged very much behind in this matter. It is late in the day now to say, "Let us see whether we can get the money voluntarily." If there had been a fund in existence, this Bill would not have had to be brought in. The fact that old age pensions were first brought in by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) as far back as 1908 and that nothing has been done to provide pensions for Members of this House, is something in the nature of a slur upon the corporate spirit of the House of Commons. I will read one extract from the Report of the Departmental Committee:
    "It is found that in a certain number of cases a Member who has spent many years in Parliament is unable after the cessation of his Parliamentary salary to support himself in the most modest manner which comports with the dignity of that Institution."
    That, to my mind, is a convincing argument. In view of that statement, made as the result of inquiry by dispassionate civil servants, I think the necessity for such a Measure as this is clear. I do not want to mention any names, but it is common knowledge that the widow of one who was a much respected member of our body in February, and who has passed. away since then, has been left in very difficult circumstances. That that should have happened since last February must show anybody who had doubts in February about this Measure the need that exists for something to be done. A pension of£75 a year would have been of great assistance in such a case.

    Other hon. Members have come to me and said, "Why are you taking£12 a year from me?" I think I may claim some credit for the decision to increase Members' salaries, and I cannot help saying to these people, "Do you not remember that, largely by my efforts, your salary was increased two years ago by£200 a year?" I also point out that, although I do not regard that£200 as unearned increment—because I believe that those of us who do our jobs here richly deserve our£600 a year—this is an unexpected windfall; and if they receive£188 a year extra instead of£200 a year extra I do not see that they have much to complain about or to attack me about. Then, this scheme has been described as sloppy. It was my privilege to give evidence, like certain other hon. Members, before the Committee. So far from the scheme being sloppy, every point that Is found in the Bill will be found in the report, with the exception of the point mentioned by the Prime Minister, which I think I raised originally and which was suggested by others also, that small private savings should not be counted against the individual. I am delighted that that has been provided for in the Bill.

    The hon. Member for Hastings raised the question of an indirect charge upon the taxpayer. My own view is that in these matters the mother of Parliament should emulate Caesar's wife and be above suspicion in every way. That is no doubt the view of the Government. We have taken care always to be above suspicion in the public view. On the question of railway fares, it took years to get provision made here, although it was done in the Dominion Parliaments. Salaries were increased to£600 only two years ago. It took the greatest possible pressure on Ministers to get them to put their salaries up. When it is said that there is an indirect charge on the revenue because of loss of Income Tax, I would point out that£7,500 is the total of the fund; deduct from that one-fifth, which is the earned income allowance—and to which I think all of us here are entitled—and that brings the figure to 6,000. Income Tax on that, at 5s. 6d. in the£, amounts to just over£1,500 a year. Our total Income Tax receipts are well over£300,000,000, so this is less than 1/200,000th part of our total receipts. The Chancellor of the Exchequer mentioned only to-day that our payments this year amount to£1,400,000,000, so this is just over one-millionth part of the total sum. I would go back to my schoolboy days, and recall a Latin tag, de minimis non curat lex. I might translate that rather freely, "For such a twopenny-halfpenny detail, the Chancellor of the Exchequer need not worry." I will not demur if, under this Measure, each Member of Parliament will have to pay about££2 10s. more in Income Tax than he would otherwise have had to do. That will do away with the argument that this is even an indirect charge upon the taxpayer.

    The hon. Member for South-East Essex (Mr. Raikes) used the phrase, "We shall hear about this from one end of the land to the other." On that, I would say that I represent the largest electorate in London, numbering 94,000. Of those 94,000, one elector took the trouble to write to me about this, and he was under the impression that we were putting the charge for these pensions on the Revenue. I do not think that my hon. Friend the Member for South-East Essex need be very anxious about the repercussions in the country with regard to this matter. Quite frankly, I do not think that the people in the country are sufficiently interested. This is a right and proper Measure and one we ought to have adopted long before, and it will, if carried, do a good deal to bring together the House in these difficult days, and I have pleasure in supporting it.

    8.46 p.m.

    I do not propose to go into the merits of this Bill as they have been advanced and rejected in the Debate hitherto, but I am driven to refer to some pleasant comments made by the Prime Minister upon the Amendment that is on the Paper in my name. He observed that he thought my objection was pedantic. I had to reflect that he was speaking as Prime Minister and Leader of the House and, perhaps, had hardly had time in his busy life to remember that he is the First Lord of the Treasury. Perhaps before I have finished he will recall that fact, and realise that my objection to the immediate procedure with this Bill is by no means pedantic. The Amendment I have put down is not to reject the Bill, but to postpone it until the payment of our salaries has been put on a proper statutory basis, and that is the single point I want to urge upon the House to-night. I accept the statement of the Prime Minister that there is no charge on public funds as being practically accurate, though I do not think that he would maintain that it was strictly accurate. There is a very curious provision whereby, in the case of a Member who does not draw his salary, the deduction has to be provided from another source, and that can only be from public funds. I take it that in the cases where Members are not drawing their full salaries, they will very probably add on to the amount they take a sum sufficient to replace this£12. So there will be just some slight addition to the charge on public funds, but I should not be inclined to put it at over£100 in all. Therefore, I freely accept the statement of the Prime Minister that there is no appreciable charge on public funds.

    But to revert to the point that we should not proceed with this Bill until we also place our salaries on a statutory basis, I put it strongly to the House that our present procedure is not a permanent arrangement, and we should not pass this Bill until both salaries and deductions are together authorised by statute. It is very odd that few people seem to realise the procedure that we have adopted in paying ourselves our salaries. They seem to think that there is statutory authority for it. They forget that the procedure is that every year an Estimate is presented to us which we never discuss. We pass that Estimate without any criticism or examination, and alter the sums have been included in the Appropriation Act the money has to be paid out to us.

    I ask the House to contrast the procedure by which we pay ourselves our own salaries with the procedure we adopt when we desire to confer any benefits upon our constituents. We know the ordinary procedure should we want to increase old age pensions, for example. We have a Financial Resolution with a Committee and a Report stage, and then a Bill which requires the First Reading, a Second Reading, Committee and Report stages, and the Third Reading. We present, in the face of any benefit that we desire to give, an elaboration of procedure that is almost a barbed-wire entanglement. When our constituents want to put their hands into the till they are confronted with difficulties of that kind, but when we put our hands into the till, it is "roses, roses all the way." [Interruption] The till is the public funds, the Exchequer of the country. Surely the till is that place from which salaries are normally drawn, and when we draw our salaries we approach the till by means of the procedure which is ludicrously simple, as we hardly ever discuss the Estimate.

    Every consideration of prudence, even of common honesty, should make us even more particular about the procedure by which we pay ourselves than we are about the procedure by which we confer benefits upon others, and, so far from that being the case, it is exactly the reverse. Moreover, in the case of Ministers, we do not adopt that simple procedure in order to pay them their salaries. Their salaries have a statutory basis, and we ought to put our own salaries on a proper statutory basis, so that we cannot, in a brief half-day's sitting, add 50 per cent. to our salaries. Is that a pedantic point? It is a point that we all have firmly in our memory as having, in fact, arisen. I am not going to discuss the merits of the increase of salaries which was made a couple of years ago. I agree that£400 a year is too small, though I should pre- fer other methods and slightly different timing, and I do not think that£600 is too much for us, but the procedure then adopted of a half-day's sitting, with a Debate which was really very inadequate, by comparison with the procedure that we adopt in regard to our constituents is not creditable to the House, and it ought not to be permitted.

    I really must remind hon. Friends behind me that that is the historic and orthodox view of the Conservative party. It is not a new question. We had it up in 1911 when the Liberal Government started this method of Estimate and Appropriation Act. I supported it, but the Conservative party took precisely the reverse view. The right hon. Member for Aldershot (Viscount Wolmer) moved that the House ought to proceed by means of an Act, and that the salaries should not be on this procedure of Estimate and Appropriation. He advanced a great variety of arguments, two of which, I thought rather supported my view in voting for the Government of the day. He argued that the procedure we were then adopting could not be permanent, and that we must ultimately place the provision of salaries on the Statute Book. He also pointed out that the reason why the Liberal party were adopting that procedure was that they knew perfectly well that if they proceeded by statute the Lords would throw it out. That seemed to me an excellent reason for not at that time proceeding by statute. These conditions have gone. These excuses no longer remain, and I believe the Conservative party were fundamentally right that in normal times our salary system should be upon a statutory basis. I looked up the Division List and I found a number of names of persons who, I suppose, I must now describe as Conservative pedants. They included Austen Chamberlain, Samuel Hoare, J. Gilmour, Tryon, Hugh Cecil, Page Croft and such orthodox leaders of the Conservative party.

    I am not going to Test my case finally upon the view of the Conservative party, because that does not carry with me the weight that it does with some other hon. Members, but we have had this subject under consideration since then at the Public Accounts Committee. I often regret the absence on the Front Opposition Bench of the familiar figure of Morgan Jones. I wish he were here now. He was our chairman on the Public Accounts Committee when we had this subject before us, and he took a special interest in it. There was a great variety of cases before us, with which I need not trouble the House, cases in which the Departments had obtained money by means of estimate, without proper statutory authority. We reported on them, and I want to read to the House the report of the Public Accounts Committee, not only on the particular cases but on the general proposition, because we had to consider what is the reasonable limit of this procedure of obtaining money by estimate. We were unanimously of opinion that it was a right that must be most carefully preserved, but at the same time we recognised that it was a method that should be strictly limited and reasonably controlled, unless there was to be great danger of irresponsible expenditure by the Executive and the House of Commons. Let me quote from the Committee:
    "Your Committee considered also, as a matter of general principle, that where it is desired that continuing functions should be exercised by a Government Department, particularly where such functions may involve financial liability extending beyond a given financial year, it is proper, subject to certain recognised exceptions, that the powers and duties to be exercised should be defined by specific Statute."
    That is to say, that where the Treasury is paying out year after year sums of money to the House of Commons there should be a statutory basis for it. On that report, the Treasury made a minute. Their Lordships introduced a very elaborate minute, from which I will quote a few relevant sentences:
    "Nevertheless, while they think that the Executive Government must continue to be allowed a certain measure of discretion in asking Parliament to exercise power which undoubtedly belongs to it, they agree that the practice should normally accord with the view expressed by the committee, that where it is desired that continuing functions should be exercised by Government Departments, particularly where that function involves financial responsibility extending beyond a given year, it is proper that the powers and duties exercised should be defined by specific Statute. Their Lordships will for their part continue to aim at the observance of this principle."
    Therefore, they did not regard it as pedantic.

    The hon. Member's rising is quite irrelevant. I was going to point out that if we pass this Bill we are authorising the present method of payment of Parliamentary salaries, and maing it a perpetuity. The one way of getting back to the right track is to postpone this Measure until we also put Parliamentary salaries on a satisfactory basis. If the two Front Benches, who are so friendly, would agree to bring in a consolidating Bill, which would combine this present Bill with the existing practice in regard to the payment of salaries, and produce an agreed Measure that would place our whole salary system upon a proper statutory basis, I should be glad to vote for it, but it is because I consider that the course we are taking in this Bill is the wrong one that I put down my Amendment. We ought not to leave ourselves open to the charge, that we measure in different scales the procedures to be adopted in giving benefits to our constituents and benefits to ourselves. It is because I feel this matter strongly, that I oppose the Bill. 9.2 p.m.

    The speech of the hon. Member for Central Leeds (Mr. Denman) has raised an interesting point of procedure—at least, I suppose it is an interesting point—but I must confess that I have never been able to raise much enthusiasm for a subject of such nicety as he obviously has displayed. Therefore, he will not mind if I do not follow him into the ramifications in which he has been indulging this evening. I should like to remind him of one statement he made, that in a properly conducted business people paid their wages out of the till. I have always thought and believed that those who were caught pinching from the till went to "jug" I am glad, however, that the hon. Member supports the principle of the Bill, and I hope that we shall have his vote in the Lobby. I should hate, and I am sure that the hon. Member would hate, to think that some really deserving case could not receive the attention that it would otherwise have received because the hon. Member had raised this complicated point of procedure and had thereby delayed the introduction of this Bill.

    The hon. Member for Hastings (Mr. Hely-Hutchinson), who moved the rejection of the Bill, was not happy in his allusions. He ventured to lecture the Members of this House on the proper way in which they should regard their business. He has been in this House two years. The hon. Member was at Eton. If when he had been at Eton for less than two years he had undertaken to lecture the senior boys of that school upon the rights and privileges of young Etonians—incidentally, I do not think much of that school and I hope they will be beaten later this week at cricket—I have no doubt that he would have been summarily treated. I hope, too, that his Amendment for the rejection of the Bill will be summarily dealt with by the House.

    He did make one point which the hon. Member for South-East Essex (Mr. Raikes) took up, when he said that the scheme was half-baked and ill-conceived. All I can say is that it was considered by men who are acknowledged as absolutely at the top of the tree in these matters. It was exhaustively considered by the Committee and except for two minor points their recommendations are being followed. I have always been taught to believe that if one wanted to succeed in life one ought not only to find out the very best advice but when one had got the advice, to follow it. I think we should do so on this occasion. I was rather touched by the sad story which the hon. Member for South-East Essex told about Old Bill, but I thought it was somewhat irrelevant. I would seriously urge hon. Friends of mine to support the Bill. In every walk of life to-day when we join a corporate body we find attached to it some form of benevolent fund. If one becomes a Freemason a part of the subscription is used for a benevolent fund. A city company has a benevolent fund, and most of the trade associations, certainly the one with which I am concerned, have benevolent funds. Surely Parliament should have its own benevolent fund subscribed to and conducted by Parliament.

    Surely, if there is one thing more voluntary than another it is membership of this House. It is quite a voluntary act for persons to apply for membership of this House; nobody forces them to apply.

    Will the hon. Member explain to me how on earth it can be volun- tary if I as a Member of this House am compelled by Statute to pay what I do not want to pay?

    The hon. and learned Member, if he wants to do so, can apply for the Chiltem Hundreds and get out of it to-morrow; there is nothing to stop him. The Patronage Secretary must accept his resignation. I know it is said that "hard cases make bad law," but this Bill seems to me to be specifically introduced to deal with the hard cases. Those who have taken an interest in this matter know that there are many hard cases which even the Mover of the Amendment would have found out if he had made inquiries. I have in mind the case of one on this side of the House and one on the Labour benches, peculiarly distressing cases, which want to be dealt with by some better method than the present method of a whip round their friends. In all seriousness I would urge my hon. Friends in all parts of the House to act generously, to consider the tragedy of some of their colleagues, and if they will do that I am sure that they will not find it in their hearts to vote against a Measure which, whatever its faults, will bring comfort, support and security to many of these tragic figures of our public life.

    9.8 p.m.

    The hon. Member for Sowerby (Mr. McCorquodale), who has just addressed the House, has referred to Eton versus Harrow. I say, a plague on both your schools, we are now discussing Members' pensions. As regards the reply of the hon. Member to the interjection of the hon. and learned Member for Withington (Mr. Fleming), it seems to me that the suggestion that the hon. and learned Member should apply for the Chiltern Hundreds was not quite happy. If he did apply for the Chiltern Hundreds and had been 10 years in this House up to the time when he applied, and if he was of the right age and had fallen upon evil times, then by force we should have to support him although he had applied for the Chiltern Hundreds, in order to avoid being in the scheme. One thing of interest has emerged from the Debate, and that is the fact that the House now knows who is the author of the increase in the salary of hon. Members. The hon. Member for East Lewisham (Sir A. Pownall) was so influential that he was able to extract from public funds an increase in the salary of hon. Members.

    I said nothing of that kind. I said that I had some measure of responsibility for raising the question.

    I would not for the world deprive the hon. Member of any credit for such a public-spirited and no doubt entirely disinterested action as to increase his own salary at the same time as he increased ours. The hon. Member gave the House a Latin tag. May I suggest another Latin tag:

    "Timeo Danaos, et dona ferentes."
    Beware of the Greeks when they bring gifts. The hon. Member for East Lewis-ham also mentioned the fact that he had been a witness before the committee. I spoke at some length in moving the rejection of his Motion on 2nd February, and I pointed out then, as I point out again now, that my complaint against the proceedings before the committee was that the people who gave evidence were not sufficiently representative of all parts of the House. It may be that the hon. Member for East Lewisham had an opportunity of stating his view, an opportunity which was denied, I am sorry to say, to other hon. Members who would have been glad to have been able to put their points of view. I particularly regret that I find myself in disagreement with my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. I have no desire to recapitulate the arguments which I presented to the House on the 2nd February, and I do appreciate indeed the action of the Prime Minister in suggesting that the vote on this occasion as on that occasion should be an entirely free vote. I would point out, however, that the Debate on 2nd February was a very short Debate and gave no real indication of the feelings of this House, and that only 307 Members took part in the Division.

    The real thing which has emerged from the introduction of this Bill is that those who opposed the Motion of the hon. Member for East Lewisham on 2nd February have been proved to be correct. We contended that however small it might be, the scheme as put forward in his Motion did involve a charge on public funds. We are glad that that point of view has received the consideration which it deserves, and that as the Bill is drawn there is no charge on public funds. However much the hon. Member for East Lewis-ham may try to belittle the fact, he said on the 2nd February:
    "This scheme would involve no direct charge of any sort or kind upon the taxpayer."—[Official Report, 2nd February, 1939; col. 419, Vol. 343]
    At any rate, on this occasion he has been proved to be wrong. I am not against a pension scheme for Members of this House. I believe that no man or woman who has served the country in this honourable House should fall upon evil times through no fault of their own. I believe that the country owes it to those who have served the country here that they should be cared for if through no fault of their own bad times come upon them. I certainly think that the scheme should be a national scheme, but we know that the present moment is not the proper time for such a national scheme to be introduced. I do not think any hon. Member on either side of the House would suggest that this is a proper or suitable time to introduce a national pension scheme for hon. Members when there are so many outside this House whose miserable pittances cannot be increased because the financial circumstances of today make it impossible. Therefore, it seems to me that hon. Members must wait, as others have to wait, for an amelioration of the hardships which circumstances may force upon them. We all know that hard cases do occur, cases of hon. Members whose faces have been familiar to us who have been hard hit, cases in which in the event of the death of a Member those who are left suffer privations; and in those cases this House has always been generous. There is no hon. Member who will not put his hand in his pocket in cases of need and help by making a contribution.

    But that is not the proper way in which pensions should be paid to Members of this House, or to their dependants. I cannot believe it is right that hon. Members who are in straightened circumstances should be supported by charity. It belittles the dignity of this House that the hat should have to be sent round for an hon. Member or his dependants. It belittles the dignity of the House that it should have a contributory pensions scheme which is, in fact, a forced levy upon all Members, irrespective of their private means. There might be something to be said for it if it were graduated pro rata, so that those who had most should help most; but I cannot see any argument, and no argument has been made out, which would support the view that Members should receive enforced contributions from their fellows.

    There is one great difficulty that I see in the scheme. I fully realise the position in which my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister finds himself, and I would not do anything that would make his task more difficult and onerous, when he has so much on his shoulders. This fund, when it has been set up, will, by its nature, limit the number of persons who can be paid. When the Motion was moved on 2nd February, the suggestion was that nobody should qualify for a pension before the date of the coming into force of any legislation, but under this Bill any Member or ex-Member of the House who has the qualifications of 10 years' service and of age is eligible for a pension. There may be—I hope and trust there are not—many hard cases of ex-Members of the House at the present time, and it seems to me that, by introducing this particular scheme, you would make it quite impossible to meet the needs of all those cases. I cannot think it is right that there should be before the trustees a differentiation between the people who try to put their pitiable cases. If you are going to pension people who are in need and in difficulty, then do it without having any regard to comparisons between A, B and C. What an invidious position in which to put them and the trustees. There will be only a limited amount of funds in the pool, and the trustees will have to decide which are the most deserving cases to be paid from those funds. It seems to me that it would have been better for this scheme to have been delayed, and that it would have been infinitely preferable to have had a national pensions scheme in which the State realised and recognised its obligations to those who have served it in the House.

    The hon. Baronet the Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Sir P. Harris), who represents the Liberal party—at one time he represented both of them, although now, like the Arab, he has folded his tent and silently stolen away— was presumably speaking for all those dear and absent friends who normally sit on those benches with him.

    Presumably what he said is binding upon the right hon. Gentleman who leads his party, as far as anyone can bind that right hon. Gentleman. The hon. Baronet the Member for South-West Bethnal Green said that this House is a club. So it is, in the best sense of the word. One of the finest things about the House is the friendships which exist, in spite of party divisions, between hon. Members on both sides. This is the best kind of club; it is the most democratic club in the world. But I have never heard of any club which, in order to benefit its members who have fallen upon evil times, exacts a forced levy from other members. [Interruption] The hon. Member may perhaps know of one, but I do not know of one. I have not the benefit of his vast experience.

    I am a simpleton compared with the hon. and gallant Gentleman. I am listening to him only because I am simple.

    The hon. Member may look simple, but we know that he is not simple. I have no wish to go at length into the arguments that were made on 2nd February, when we debated this matter. Certainly, I have no wish to impede what the Prime Minister feels it to be his duty to carry out, but I owe it to myself and to the House to make clear that I do not think this is the right scheme. There should be some scheme, for the necessity of those in need is immediate, but I think it would have been better, if it had been possible, to have waited until a national scheme could be produced which would be more consonant with the dignity of the House and its great traditions.

    9.21 p.m.

    I have listened to the whole of this Debate, but I must confess that I have not been in the slightest degree impressed by any speech that has been made from this side, except that of the hon. Member for East Lewisham (Sir A. Pownall), who moved the original Motion; and I am very glad indeed that the Prime Minister has taken up the matter. I cannot conceive that there is any hon. Member who would not be only too happy to subscribe. I believe that those who, unfortunately, through age or some other infirmity, find themselves in a bad position after they have left the House, deserve great consideration from their friends and comrades here, and that we ought to do anything we can to help them. If any hon. Member objects to paying this contribution, he can apply for the Chiltern Hundreds, or if he does not wish to do that, he need not stand for election at the next General Election. I believe that many hon. Members who can afford to do so will subscribe to the fund in order to give it a good start. I hope that the Measure will be passed and that we shall get the subscriptions.

    I do not always vote with my party, and on any occasion when I consider that a proposal from the benches opposite is essential, I vote with hon. Members opposite. It is not often that such an occasion occurs. As an example, I can mention the question of night baking. I voted against that because I do not believe that any man throughout his working life should have always to work at night. On that occasion, in the Lobby, one of my friends said, "Why did you do that? You should see our bakeries." I replied: "I do not want to see your bakeries; I should like you to see the bakeries of some other people. Besides," I said, "I do not eat new bread, so I do not see why anybody else should." I support this Bill, and I hope that, on reconsideration, many hon. Members on this side will do the same thing. I was not in the least impressed by the contention of the hon. Member for Hastings (Mr. Hely-Hutchinson) that some Clause in the Bill had been changed. Has any hon. Member ever seen a Bill which was not altered in the course of one or other stage? Such a case would be exceptional I think I have said enough to show that my feelings are all in favour of the Bill, and I hope that every hon. Member who can bring himself to do so will support it.

    9.25 p.m.

    I feel that, after the speeches we have heard, I can begin straight away by saying that I gather that no one in this Debate has been the least impressed by any speech that has been made. I do not flatter myself that anybody will be in the least impressed by any speech that I make. The first point I would like to make is that I was rather surprised when the Prime Minister said that this scheme, which perhaps has been rather unpopular throughout the country, is now to get a new name. It was pointed out to us that we were not now dealing with a Bill for pensions but with a House of Commons Members Fund Bill. It is, of course, based on the Departmental Committee's report with very minor differences, but that report is on Members' pensions as also was the Resolution passed in the House on 2nd February. I believe that if we are going to have it—I still hope it may be withdrawn and some better scheme put forward—do not let us run away from the name and dress it up and pretend that it is something different in order that we may be able to tell people outside that we are not proposing pensions for Members, but that this is something quite different. It is the same thing, and why hide it up?

    The hon. Member for Sowerby (Mr. McCorquodale) in a moving speech impressed me very much by one thing he said. He urged us to act generously. Throughout this Debate, as in the debate on 2nd February, hon. Members in different parts of the House got up and explained extremely generously that they themselves were willing to give£12. I would not object nearly so much to this scheme if it were passed for the duration of one Parliament, but what I feel is that we are definitely staging that in the future the salaries of Members of Parliament shall be£588. It is not merely our generosity. We are being generous at the expense of people who are coming after us and other Members. I am interested in this point because in the Debate that took place when salaries were raised to£600 it was pointed out that£400 was not enough for an hon. Member in this House with perhaps a wife and family who had the expense of living in London during the week and going back to a constituency at the week-end. It was pointed out that while hon. Members were working in this House for the sake of the country they should not be hampered by the worry and anxiety of insufficient pay. On that occasion we were given no exact figures, but no reasons have been given as to why£12 off that salary would not mean hardship. I do not see how we can have it both ways. If it was necessary to raise it to£600, why should we remove the£12 now?

    The Prime Minister in introducing this Bill pointed out to us the reasons that had urged him to do so, and the right hon. Gentleman opposite said he knew the Prime Minister had done it because he thought it was right. We all know that. We know the Prime Minister has always acted in what he thinks is the right way, and he has generally been right. At the same time, I know that he will realise that those of us who oppose it are doing so because we also think that our point of view is right. Those salaries were raised to£600, and although I voted against that rise, I did realise that there might be very hard cases. I saw there were hon. Members who really could not make both ends meet on their£400. When we did that I did not like taking that money from the taxpayers unless it was absolutely necessary for those people, and to-day my difficulty is this: I was urged at that time to support the Measure. I was told it was necessary because of those people who had been in poverty, and now we are told that there will not be any poverty without that£12. In other words we have been taking from the taxpayer£7,000 a year that is not necessary. It is that point that still makes me feel that if hon. Members in this House can carry out their work on£588, we ought to give back to the State and the taxpayer that£7,000.

    When the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer was good enough to reply to some of my points in the Debate on 2nd February, there was one point on which he told me I was entirely wrong. I suggested that as that money was not required it should be given back to the State, and as it had only been taken in order to let people in this House have what I may call a living wage, that living wage could be£588 and the money ought to go back to the State. Therefore, if we take the money away from the Members who are serving in this House and put it to another fund, we are definitely taking away money that ought to go back to the taxpayers. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer replied to me pointing out that both he and the Prime Minister had pointed out that if the salaries were raised to£600 it might enable some pension scheme to be provided for. His argument on that occasion was, "We have not taken more money than we require." The£600 that was given to us was given, I gather from this statement, because a pensions scheme was envisaged; in other words more than was necessary as a living wage was given in order to provide a pensions scheme. I presume that was what was meant. If so, how can we say that the effect of a pensions scheme is not a charge upon the taxpayer?

    The reason I am going to oppose this Measure—we all know it is a free vote, but I may say that if it were a three-line Whip, I should equally oppose it because I think it is wrong—is that I feel we are not doing what the country would expect us to do in these days of high taxation. My hon. Friend the Member for East Lewisham (Sir A. Pownall) spoke of the amount of money and the amount of Income Tax, and said that it was a matter of a few thousand pounds. He talked of a twopenny-halfpenny scheme and of a one-millionth part of the Budget. It is suggestions like that which are going to send this country to bankruptcy. If, because you have to spend large sums of money, every other small sum gets entirely out of proportion, and you say, "It does not matter if we spend a million, because we are spending one hundred millions "—very well, let us spend on everything. Why should we say over and over again that we cannot afford this or that? If you take£5,000,000,£10,000,000 or£20,000,000, its proportion to the national expenditure at this moment is very small. Still, it does not cease to be£10,000,000 or£20,000,000.

    I am convinced that to keep up the economic strength of the country and to get through these difficult times, we must, if necessary, have cheeseparing. We must look after every penny. We seem to be getting into the stage of imagining that a few thousand pounds, or even a million or two, do not amount to very much, but the taxpayer does not take that view, and the very worst propaganda that could go out from this House is the suggestion that we here think so little of hundreds of thousands of pounds. If we do not require this£7,000 for our ordinary everyday work, we ought to give it back. We ought not to say that we will keep it and do something else with it. The hon. Member for St. Albans (Sir F. Fremantle), who seconded the Motion on 2nd February, began on the high moral tone, talking about generosity as if it was out of our own generosity we were proposing to do this. As I have said, it is not in the least our own generosity. There is no generosity about it.

    The hon. Member talks about a free Vote of the House. He is not going to be in this House for ever. Neither am I.

    By passing this Bill we are arranging for the generosity, if it can be described as such, of the Members who will come after us. [An HON. MEMBER: "You have said that already"] I am saying it again in reply to the hon. Member who interrupted me, and I propose to continue my speech in my own way whatever hon. Members opposite may think about it. Probably they will not be very much impressed by it, but the fact is that I am a Member of Parliament and I am getting£600 a year for being here, and I have the right to speak.

    Is it not the case that those people of the future for whom the hon. Lady is showing such a great regard will have the power to repeal this Measure?

    Does the hon. Member suggest that we should run all our legislation on those lines? Suppose we did, why should the Opposition vote against any Bill? Why should they not say, "Let it go through and in future years we can repeal it "? What would happen if we were to deal with all our legislation by saying, "This Bill is no good, but it will do for the moment and we can have another Bill later on"? I am sincere in saying that I do not object to giving up£12 a year. Naturally, I have not the expenses that many other hon. Members have, but I do not object in the slightest degree. At the same time, if I vote for this scheme I have to realise that there will be somebody else representing Dundee in the future. He might be a man who had no money at all, and who had great difficulties to meet. I have to realise that in this matter I am not speaking for myself alone, but for other Members who will come afterwards. But to return to the hon. Member for St. Albans. In seconding the Motion on 2nd February he quoted Scripture. Perhaps he will remember the quotation. At that time I was rather interested to note the part of the Scriptures from which the hon. Member quoted. I thought the significance of it would leap to the hon. Member's mind at once. The hon. Member went to the Scriptures to find inspiration for his statement in that Debate and from what part of the Scriptures did he quote? The part which he quoted was the Parable of the Unjust Steward. If I were to vote for this Measure, I should certainly feel that I was in the position of an unjust steward. We are here to look after the interests of the taxpayers of the country as a whole, and the big thing for this House to do, if we decide that£588 per year is enough for Members, is to arrange that the remaining£12 shall be given back.

    At the same time, I believe that a different type of pension scheme could be put into force. I believe we could have a voluntary scheme. As the Prime Minister said, it might not be able always to supply the necessary funds at first, but I believe that a capital fund could be built up in time. I believe that people who were formerly Members of the House and are now in another place would join in such a scheme. I believe there are people in the constituencies, who have been interested in politics for a long time and who may also have been Members of the House and who would join in such a voluntary scheme. I do not believe that any hon. Member who thinks over the matter carefully can say that it would be impossible to raise a voluntary fund and a fund like that would be much better than the proposal in the Bill. In this Debate, as in the previous Debate, several hon. Members have said that this is in no way different; they have talked about this as a donation and about Members being generous enough to give£12 to this fund. But this is not a donation. Hon. Members need not feel that they are being in the least bit generous. This simply means that they will not get the£12. It will be taken for this purpose.

    Then the Chancellor of the Exchequer on 2nd February said this proposal was just the same as if hon. Members met together as private people and agreed to put their hands in their pockets and provide this sum, in a purely voluntary way. That is the sort of example which has been given to-night by one Member after another. We have been told that this is a purely domestic matter. If we are here as private individuals agreeing to put up this amount out of our own pockets, why are we not meeting in a Committee room upstairs as ordinary private people? Why in other words are we not meeting to set up a voluntary scheme, instead of passing an Act of Parliament and making a scheme which will have to be kept within the limits of an Act of Parliament? Members of this House may fall on evil days before they reach the age of 60 or before they have been 10 years in the House. A Member may have illness, for instance. If we had a voluntary fund which would be more elastic than this proposal, we could then deal with such cases. If we pass a Measure of this sort, it will not be possible to do so. I believe that in this way, we shall not do what could be done by a voluntary scheme. I think this proposal is wrong. I think we are taking the taxpayers' money, and that we ought to hand back this£7,000, if we do not require it for the purpose for which it was given, and, on these grounds, I shall vote against the Bill.

    9.44 p.m.

    I shall not detain the House long, because I think, with all respect, we have heard few arguments of any force against the Bill. I would say this about the point made by the Mover of the Amendment, that the Bill is perhaps a little untimely. I would have preferred this proposal to have been made pari passu with an extension of old age pensions. It is no use deceiving ourselves. We shall get to know all about this Bill in due course. I agree with the principle of the Bill, but I know that in the North of England, at any rate, Members of Parliament will hear all about the fact that we are taking care of ourselves again. After the allowance for expenses to Members had been extended by£200, at the first open-air meeting which I addressed there was a bevy of old age pensioners, and I sensed what was going to happen. At the end of the meeting they came forward and said, "Glad to see you. We see you've helped yourselves to£200 a year more. Couldn't you find a bit for us? "There is no answer to that, with the pittance that they are getting. I would much prefer that this should come along at the same time as an extension of the old age pension. That extension is bound to come, and with all respect to the Prime Minister it is no use saying that it will not come. It has got to come, Prime Minister or no Prime Minister. It is an actual necessity for the aged poor of our country, and it is no good saying we shall never agree to it. As I say, I would prefer the Third Reading of this Bill, once the Second Reading is through, as it will be to-night, postponed until after an extension of the old age pension.

    It seems to me that the only question before us to-night is whether or not there is to be a fund like this. If there is to be a fund—and all the arguments that I have heard go to show that there is a need for such a fund—then we must have it compulsory, because in no other way can you have an actuarial basis. There must be an actuarial basis, and there must be compulsion to arrive at it. How could any trustees, year by year, if Members could contract in and contract out of the fund, arrive at what was going to be in the fund? It would be unworkable, and, as I see it, the fund must be compulsory. The hon. Lady the Member for Dundee (Miss Horsbrugh) said that we were taking;£7,000 compulsorily from Members' pockets—in her case, I suppose, it would be a bag—and putting it into this fund, which meant£7,000 indirectly from public funds, but if I or any other hon. Member said we would insure our lives with part of the increase of salary which we got as Members, at a premium of£12 per annum, or 4s. a week, what would anybody else have to do with that? It does not affect the public at all.

    Surely the hon. Member must realise that the money comes from the public.

    The hon. and gallant Member may be quite clear in his own mind as to what he wants to say, but I am sorry that I cannot follow him. I say that we cannot have contracting in and out of such a fund. What is the reason for all our health insurance funds, into which everybody has to pay, whether he likes it or not? My father was for many years a member of a friendly society, on the voluntary system, as I am now. I have been for 35 years in a benevolent fund. It is true that it is voluntary, but I do not expect that I shall require any benefit from the fund; and many working men were friendly society men for many years before the State said they must join, compulsorily, health and unemployment insurance funds. The result, of course, has been that there is a sound actuarial basis for those funds such as the old superannuation funds had not got. Many of these old funds found they could not keep up the benefits which they were pledged to give to the members who originally joined them. For instance, the North Eastern Railway superannuation fund members got 3s. a week instead of about 15s. It seems to me to be quite clear that if there is to be a fund of this nature, it must be compulsory, because otherwise there can be no actuarial basis at all. It would only be a yearly slate club fund, divisible at the end of the year as lots of slate clubs are in the North of England.

    With all respect to the Mover of the Amendment, whose speech did not do him justice, he said that the Prime Minister's speech was sloppy. He may be a good judge of that—

    How can anything that is compulsory be sloppy? I could understand anybody saying that it is rigid or too rigid, but I cannot understand them saying it is sloppy, and the hon. Member's excuse justifies what I said, that his speech did not do him justice. He was rather sloppy in what he said, and he had not his usual clear thinking in that matter. I am glad that the Prime Minister has come in, because, as a supporter, and a faithful supporter, of his, I want to say something which he may not like with regard to a letter which he may not have sent out, but in North Cornwall we got to know about it, and it was published yesterday, in which it was said that 10 per cent. only of the old age pensions went on public assistance. That hurt me abominably. Has it never occurred to the writer of that letter —it may have been the right hon. Gentleman's secretary—that more than 10 per cent., because of the natural pride of my class, did not want to go on public assistance and would rather starve? It hurt me abominably, and it would hurt me abominably if anybody said that only 10per cent. of the Members of this honourable House, men and women with whom I have associated for 10 years, required this, because some of them did not want, from natural pride, to appeal for charity.

    Let us do this thing decently and well, of our own free will and accord. There can be no actuarial basis for the fund unless the trustees know without a doubt what they will have coming in every year, so that they can know what they are doing. Let us do the thing decently and well from the start. Let us put it on a sure foundation, and, for the sake of 4s. a week out of the£4 a week which we did not expect to get when we came here in 1935, let us do it with some kind of graciousness.

    9.55 p.m.

    I should not have intervened in the Debate but for the speech of the hon. Lady the Member for Dundee (Miss Horsbrugh). I support the scheme, and I cannot see that its supporters have much to answer in the criticisms made to-night. Nobody has opposed a pension scheme. Perhaps the most powerful opponent of the Bill was the hon. and gallant Member for Epsom (Sir A. Southby), and even he said, "I want a pension scheme, only I do not like this scheme," and, further, he said that this was not the right day. To an opponent of a scheme the day is never the right day. This day is not my day but it is the day chosen by the Government to bring it forward, and I do not judge whether it is the right or the wrong day but I take the scheme on its merits, knowing that if I do not take it this day I shall not get it at all. That meets him on that point. His other criticism was that this scheme is not good enough. When I heard that argument I had a notion to get up and say, "Damn your scheme, I am going to vote against it." I do not know whether I shall ever need it, but I have never been one of the fortunate Members. I have never had any income other than my Parliamentary salary, whether it was£400 or£600, and I happen to have a wife, and frankly I would say to the hon. and gallant Member for Epsom that I certainly would not like to think that if I passed out she had to come cap in hand for his kind of Christian charity.

    I am sure the hon. Member would not wish to misrepresent me. That is exactly why I object to the scheme. I tried to make it clear that what I did object to was the idea of anyone having to come cap in hand for charity. I advocated that it should be a national scheme, so that there should be no taint of charity about it.

    Then there was the argument of the hon. Lady about the£12. A trade union is never satisfied with the wages its members are receiving, it always thinks that they are too small, but when a scheme like health insurance comes along the trade union does not say, "Do not take the money off the wages. "It says, "Take the money off"; but that does not mean to say that it regards the wage as enough. The worker in making his contribution to sickness and pension funds is not admitting that he is paid enough, but is showing that he is willing to forgo other necessities in order to provide for this greater necessity. I may have just enough to live on, but I take the view that I can afford to do without£12 worth of other things in order to make this contribution, because it will be money better spent than in other ways. The ordinary Member wishes to transfer£12 of his income from one desirable cause to a still more desirable one.

    As to the argument that the present scheme is not the best scheme, I could advance all sorts of arguments against it. For one thing, I cannot follow why the£12 which a Member is to contribute to the scheme should be taxable. I do not think that is fair. But I take the scheme because I know that, whatever arguments one may put up against it, the only way of getting this matter dealt with is to take the scheme now before us. If we do not take it there will be no scheme at all. The proposal before us is that every Member of Parliament shall be compelled to give£12 a year to form a fund which shall be at the disposal of trustees for the purpose of paying out allowances to Members who have had 10 years' service if they need assistance on account of age or illness. Will anybody deny that it is desirable to give to an old man who has served this House, or to a sick man, an allowance to keep him from poverty? Nobody will argue against that, and that is all that is suggested.

    The only argument against it has been that it is compulsory. The truth is that even if it were voluntary it would become compulsory. In Glasgow every workman contributes something—on an average 6d. to is. a week—to Glasgow Infirmary. It is a voluntary contribution, and if he wished he could stop it to-morrow, but if he did he would immediately be taboo among all the other workmen in the place; and if 99 per cent. of the Members here were voluntarily contributing£12 a year to this fund the remaining 1 per cent. would be compelled to do so also, by sheer force of circumstances. I do not want to say hard things to the hon. Lady the Member for Dundee, because I think she is honest, but it has struck me as very funny that though she voted against the increase of£200 she takes the£200. [Hon. Members: "Why not?"] If I wanted the political kudos to be gained from voting against the extra£200 I certainly should not have the courage to take the money.

    There is nothing extravagant about the pension proposals before us. I know Members of this House not confined to the Labour side—I know of one colleague who sits on the other side, a Conservative, who has rendered service to the House within his capacity and ability, who is lying ill to-day. He has a wife and children and has no means. Because that man passes out at the next election—illness has decreed it—why should I not make a contribution to see that his wife, at least, and his children, have some moderate means with which to maintain him? Is there anything wrong in that? I will make the contribution of£12 a year, as other Members will, and I say in reply to the hon. Member for Gates-head (Mr. Magnay), if he needs a reply, that when we do it I trust that it will be an encouragement to those outside who are on old age pensions to keep on with an agitation to see that at an early date they are as well treated as the Members of this House.

    10.5 p.m.

    The granting and the subsequent increase of Members' salaries has to some extent changed the character of the House, I think probably for the better, because we ought not to have a House composed of people who, having had industrious fathers or fathers-in-law, are enabled to indulge in the luxury of being Members of Parliament. I had to wait until I was nearly 50 years of age before I could indulge in the luxury on the fruits of vigorous exertions. I thought my hon. Friend the Member for Hastings (Mr. Hely-Hutchinson) made a somewhat unsympathetic speech. It struck me as an unkindly speech. I should not like to see any man kept out of the House because he had not the necessary means. At the same time being a Member of Parliament is a great honour and a great luxury, and it is a form of publicity which people like to indulge in. Yet there are always a large number of people who have not been too successful in managing their own affairs and want to be put in a position to manage other people's, and they become Members of Parliament, and sometimes they become great leaders. For instance, Disraeli in his early life was always in the hands of moneylenders, and he had to be assisted by the leaders of the Conservative party. He married a wealthy wife, but it did not work out as in the case of Lord Tennyson's farmer who advised his sons, "Do not marry for money, boys, you can borrow far cheaper."

    The thing that I regret most about the Bill is that it is introduced by a Conservative Prime Minister, of whom I am a faithful follower and who has done more for the country than I can recollect anyone else doing. For political capital is being made out of it. The "Daily Herald"had a taunting article on the proposal and the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) the other day took a strong line against it for political reasons. A lot of people want to and will make capital out of this.

    I do not want to be misunderstood. I am not against Members of the House getting security. I want to see everyone get security. I do not want it to be suggested from anything that I have said that I am against Members of the House getting security.

    I know the hon. Member is not, but he was making political capital out of it.

    I think it is necessary that Members who have been long in Parliament should be made secure, because after a man has been 10 or 20 years in Parliament he is no use in any other walk in life. All public life destroys a man's capacity for honest work. I remember an ex-Lord Provost of Glasgow telling me how he had asked his brother to join the town council and he would fill his place at the mill. He went back to the mill, and he told me that he had forgotten what work was like. If that is the case in a limited application of public affairs in a town council, how much worse must it be in the House of Commons. I remember, when I first came here and was asked to take decisions on anything, contrasting the elaborate care and pains that I took in my cases, exhausting every issue, contrasted with the hasty decisions I now had to make. I was quite glad even of the assistance of the Whip. If the country uses 600 men and keeps them for years, and destroys their practical usefulness for earning their daily bread, it ought to provide for them after they have had a sufficiently long experience to realise that their capacities are very much diminished. It is the logical corollary of salaries for Members.

    What I object to in this scheme is that while the recipients do not pay Income Tax those who are levied on are taxed on money they do not receive. This is forsooth to prevent an alleged charge on the public funds, yet there is this amount of charge on the public funds. The trustees of the funds are not to pay Income Tax, so we are not entirely taken away from the idea that there is a charge on the public funds. But why should there not be a charge on the public funds? Those who pay Surtax will be paying not£12 but£24 or£25. No one need tell me that not to charge Income Tax would be a concession and that the Government would be giving them something. They are not giving them anything. They simply refrain from taking some of their money. When the Government remit taxation they are not making a present to the taxpayer, they are dipping their predatory hands a little less deeply into his pocket. I do not get the money. It is taken from me at the source. I never smell it. I have not the satisfaction of counting the Treasury notes. This£12 will not be paid out of my Parliamentary salary. It is added to my general income and I have to pay heavy taxes on it. I do not see why I should pay tax on a sum of money that I am contributing out of the goodness of my heart to other people who will not be taxed on it at all. The logical thing is to tax the recipients, but you cannot do that because the amount that they receive is too little. Why should the contribution not be free of Income Tax?

    I am not going to vote for the Bill and my reason is that I think it is an injustice to take Income Tax from a man upon money that he does not receive and has had no chance of receiving. It is a strong injustice. This is a fundamentally unjust proposal, and all because some pedantic people have said that it is a charge on the public funds. It is not a charge on the public funds to relieve of Income Tax money that is given to poor people. I can well do without£12, but not the taxes. I have 12 grandchildren. I do not want their little birthday presents and Christmas boxes to suffer. When I say I have 12 grandchildren I ought to explain that I have at the present moment 10 on whom the sun spreads its light, and that I am expecting two. I am entitled to count them in because, according to the Roman law, on which Scots law is founded, the date of a man's birth is the date of his conception and not the date on which he actually saw the light. This shows what exact people these Romans were. They must have kept their diaries with great particularity. I never knew anyone in this country who could have been specific except the father of Tristram Shandy. Perhaps hon. Members remember the opening passage of that great classic, when Mrs. Shandy asked Mr. Shandy senior, "My dear, have you forgotten to wind up the clock?" Mr. Shandy senior said," Was ever a man interrupted with such a foolish question since the world began?" What was my father saying? Nothing.

    I believe I can do without the£12, but when I am asked to pay tax on it, it seems such an injustice that I revolt against it. I have not been to Eton or any other place for exploiting youth. Thank God, I never was at any school; no schoolmaster ever stupefied my intelligence. Boys go to school for years and come out as dull at ditchwater because they have had pedants over them all the time. That is why so few people think for themselves. The hon. Member for Sowerby (Mr. McCorquodale) for instance said that he was persuaded to accept this scheme because a committee had reported in favour of it, and that he always thought it wise to follow the best advice. I am not sure that it is wise. I recollect a very eminent Canadian statesman who was extremely successful in life. He was asked the reason why he never made a muddle and he said:" Thank God that I am stone deaf and I have never been able to take advice from anybody. Whenever I took advice from anybody I was always very sorry that I had not followed my own opinion.

    The hon. and learned Member made a good deal out of giving advice to other people.

    In that case the people had sound advice. The suggestion has been made that this might have been a voluntary scheme, but I am afraid that that would not entirely work. If we were Dumb Friends and not Members of Parliament, if we were cats and dogs, money would be thrown at us, but simply because we are human beings and are not dumb, there is no sympathy for us. I shall go into the Lobby to protest against this injustice of taxing Members who do not get the money on which they are taxed. It is simply trying to please both the objectors to and the promoters of the scheme, and one should never try to please two people of opposite opinions. That lands you nowhere. I sympathise with the motive behind the Bill, because I think there ought to be some provision, but this injustice is too great. To tax a man by collecting his money at a centre and handing it out to poor people, telling him that it is a privilege to help his poorer brethren and fining him for doing it, is a monstrous proposal which in itself justifies reconsideration of the Bill, and I hope that in Committee that Clause will disappear.

    10.21 p.m.

    I rise to support the Bill for the simple reason that the arguments I have heard have convinced me that the Bill is correct and a move in the right direction; and the most convincing arguments that I have heard in favour of the Bill have been the speeches of those who say they are opposed to it, with the one exception of the Prime Minister. I am sure that every one of us, irrespective of our point of view, was deeply impressed by his opening remarks. He demonstrated to us all what a big heart he has, and followed the divine injunction, "Blessed are the merciful." The arguments that I have heard against the Bill have, as I have said, convinced me of its necessity. Before the discussion was opened, I was asked in the Outer Lobby how I was going to vote on the Bill, and I said that most probably I should vote against it; but every speech that I have heard against the Bill has turned me in the opposite direction.

    The hon. Lady the Member for Dundee (Miss Horsbrugh) said that we could all open a voluntary fund. I do not think that the trustees under this Bill would refuse, or that there is anything in the Bill that would prevent them from accepting, gifts from hon. Members of this House or from Members of the other House who were originally here; but I agree with the hon. Member for Gates-head (Mr. Magnay) that, if we are to have a satisfactory Measure at all, it must be a compulsory Measure. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Epsom (Sir A. Southby) criticised the idea of a fixed equal contribution. I suppose his idea was that Members should pay according to their private incomes. But I would ask any hon. Member here if that could possibly be carried out in a legal enactment. There must be an equal contribution. Everyone knows that in workmens' organisations, whatever a man's private income, he pays the same contribution as all the others for his unemployment insurance his old age pension, his health insurance, or whatever it may be. My hon. and gallant Friend also tried to make the point that this is a club and said that clubs do not usually insure their members. My experience is entirely the opposite. I am not speaking of political clubs, or of rich mens clubs in the ordinary sense, but among the working-class people of this country, whom we all claim to represent, they have their clubs and they insure that no member of the club is left to cold charity in his declining days.

    Some Members have said that we can depend on charity. Knowing what I do, I say, Heaven help Members or previous Members of this House, and the widows they leave behind them, if they have to depend on the cold comfort of charity. Another criticism has been that Members can ill afford the£12 that will be deducted. All I can say in answer to that is that the people who are keenest on the deduction and most in favour of the Bill are those, so far as I can see, who have the lowest incomes. The critics say that this is not the right time to introduce the Bill, and that the Bill is not what it might have been. I ask them, will any time be the right time, or will any Bill suit their requirements? We have to have this Bill or none, and it can be altered in Committee if there is any Clause with which they are dissatisfied. The hon. Member for Central Leeds (Mr. Denman) seemed to object to the Prime Minister describing his proposal as pedantic. I have not had time to look up the dictionary definition of "pedantic" but I should say that a pedantic person is one who confines himself to minute and irrelevant details. If any speech could be criticised as pedantic, it was that which the hon. Member for Central Leeds made to-night. He went into details—if I may say so, with all kindness—which had absolutely nothing to do with the Bill.

    The hon. Member who moved the rejection said that the finances of democratic States were bad because of sloppy sentimentalism. Are the finances of democratic States in a worse condition than those of totalitarian States? Sentiment rules the world; it always has done, and I hope it always will. The longer I live and the more I see of this House, the less admiration have I for those who say that they are guided by logic on every occasion. The hon. and learned Member for Argyll (Mr. Macquisten) claims to be logical; but his speech was mainly in support of the Bill, and yet he told us that he intends to vote against it.

    No. I objected to the Income Tax Clause, but I have had a discussion with the promoter, who pointed out that if the Bill passed its Second Reading I could get that Clause which so excited my wrath deleted in Committee.

    I apologise to the hon. and learned Member. I am glad that he is going into the same Lobby as I am. Hon. Members opposite spoke as if hon. Members above the Gangway were the only people who were in favour of the Bill. Some of us who are supporting the Bill have been supporters of the Conservative party all our lives, and claim to be as good Conservatives as they are, but that does not prevent us from wanting to help our weaker brethren in the House. I know men who have served this House, who have been political opponents of mine, and whom it has been my privilege to defeat at elections, and my heart has been touched by the position of those men after they have ceased to be Members. I shall be prepared to help any man who falls by the way, as long as the money is found by ourselves and constitutes no charge on the public purse. No one can say that this is going to be a charge on the public purse. Some people have tried by all sorts of arguments and innuendoes to show that it is gong to cost the State something. I hope that they will withdraw those remarks because the public might easily get the impression that it will cost the State something. It will not cost the State one penny, and we want that fact to be expressed even by opponents of this Bill.

    I ask those who are at present opposed to this Bill to withdraw their opposition. A suggestion was made that this was a heritage which we had received from a former Prime Minister of this House. If it is, I am prouder of it that ever, because I had, and still have, a deep admiration for that Gentleman who used to lead this House, and I want hon. Members, particularly those who are on my side of politics, to support the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer in this matter. After all is said and done, they will pay their contribution like the majority of us without receiving a penny compensation in any way. We are looking to the future and trying to remedy something which has been a disgrace by ensuring that no man or woman who has served the country and served this House for at least 10 years shall be left without means. Members will be compelled to face the electors of the country in at least three elections and receive their approval.

    One hon. Member suggested that it would create pocket boroughs. I deny that assertion. The electors are free subjects and they will not be influenced because a man. has been a Member for six or seven years and give him a further period of office for the sake of enabling him to qualify for a pension. I ask hon. Members with whom I generally vote to sink their private predilections on this matter and see if they cannot withdraw their opposition and rally to the support of the Prime Minister, of whom many of us have been exceedingly proud in the past. We are more proud of him than ever for bringing in this Measure, which will in the future, I believe, add prestige to the Members of this House and particularly to those who are at present in it.

    10.33 P.m.

    I should like to explain why I cannot see my way to vote for this Bill, the Seconding Reading of which has been moved by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. To vote against the Government, or, what I consider to be pretty much the same thing, to vote against a Measure which is sponsored by the Leader of my party, has never been a favourite pastime of mine. The hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Argyll (Mr. Macquisten) said that he frequently voted contrary to the instructions of the Whips.

    Sometimes. He will no doubt call me a "yes man," which reminds me that only two days ago I heard a very good definition of a "yes man. "It ran as follows:

    "A 'yes man' is one who keeps his word by voting for the Government which he at the general election pledged himself to support."

    Does not the hon. Gentleman realise that it is a complete abnegation of the idea of representative government to make a statement like that? It does not represent the opinion of the people, and is a disgraceful sentiment.

    I am sorry that the hon. and learned Member should describe anything that I have said as disgraceful sentiment. May I inform him that as far as I can remember the last occasion that I voted against the Government was when I moved an Amendment on the Railways Bill, in 1931? Since then I have unfailingly supported the Government which I pledged myself at successive general elections to support.

    I definitely stated at every election that I reserved my right of free judgment. Although I gave general support to the Government, I would not pledge myself always to support them.

    As I was not present at any of the hon. and learned Member's meetings, I am not able to confirm what he says.

    I take the hon. and learned Member's word for it. I shall vote against this Bill, because I consider that its introduction at the present time is both unwise and inopportune. Faced as we are at the present time with increasingly insistent demands for pensions on every hand, it seems to me that we are weakening our power of opposing such measures, although we feel that the country cannot afford to pay for them. At the present time there is an insistent demand for an increase in old age pensions. There is also an increasing demand for spinsters' pensions. I do not think I am exaggerating when I say that on every hand there is some demand for pensions springing up. At the present time the country can ill afford to honour any promise made in that respect.

    I am not one of those who believe that because the country can afford to borrow£600,000,000,£700,000,000 or£800,000,000 for rearmaments, we can at the same time borrow£30,000,000 or£40,000,000 annually to supplement the existing old age pensions. Any attempt to do so would only have one result, and that would be a repetition of the financial crisis with which we were confronted in 1931. Some of the electorate will say, inaccurately: "You can afford to provide pensions for yourselves, although you are drawing from the funds of the country salaries of£600 a year, and on the other hand you say that you cannot afford to increase the miserable pittance of 10s. a week which you are paying us, although never at any time were we in a position to earn more than 40s. a week." It is because I feel that I could not con- trovert those arguments when I meet them in my constituency, as I am certain to meet them within the next few months, that I am going to vote against this Measure.

    10.38 p.m.

    I rise to say that this Bill will in no way affect me personally, but I want to put two points of view. I am going to vote for the Measure, although it contains two things that I personally resent. One is, that it establishes for ever the miserable and hateful means test. I do not see how you can accept the means test in this House for yourselves and not justify it for anyone else. For that reason, I would much have preferred to have paid twice or thrice the money for a genuine pension scheme than to have had a Measure such as this. My second point is that many hon. Members have been subscribing for pensions all their working lives. Other Members of the House, not subscribing for pensions, will have perhaps at the end of their lives, we will say, a sum of£3,000. If they get a return of 2½ per cent. on that sum they will receive£75 a year. The man who has£3,000 capital and gets from it an income of£75 a year will, or may, get£150 a year from this scheme. It would be wrong for a man with a capital of£3,000 from which he derives an annual income of£75 to get£150 out of this scheme.

    On the other hand, a man who has been subscribing for years to a pension scheme, who has put his capital into a pension scheme, and has no income from that capital, will not be in any way supported by this scheme. The whole basis of the scheme is wrong. It should have been a full benefit scheme contributed to by hon. Members. We could defend that scheme in the country, as we can defend the principle of this Bill, because it is hon. Members who are subscribing to it—not the people of the country. The hon. Member for North-West Hull (Sir A. Lambert-Ward) said that he could not justify this scheme because it would be stated that it was doing something for Members of Parliament. I think that is false reasoning. I am going to support the Bill, but I hope the time will not be far distant when, by virtue of the anomalies which will arise out of the working of the Bill, we shall have a full pension scheme for Members of Parliament.

    10.42 p.m.

    We have listened to a powerful speech against the Bill by the hon. Member for Rotherhithe (Mr. Benjamin Smith) who has, however, announced his intention of voting for it. With every argument he has put forward against the Bill I entirely agree. It seems to me that it is ill-judged and ill-timed. This is hardly the moment when, for reasons which I think are perfectly adequate, the Government are unable to increase the pensions which are now given to old age pensioners—I entirely support the Government in that decision—in which not only Parliamentary time, but Parliamentary thought and effort should be devoted to a Bill which is entirely in the interests of Members of Parliament. We may say it is a good Bill or a bad Bill, but nobody can dispute this fact, that it has one object in view only, and that is the interest of hon. Members of this House. When we are faced with the fearful international situation which is hanging over us, when we are faced at the same time with the great and increasing difficulties of old age pensioners, it is disastrous that we should deliberately embark on a scheme which is in our own interests only and nobody else's on a scheme which, as shown when it was introduced as a private Member's Motion, is bound to create controversy; and on a scheme which when the Motion was discussed showed that a majority of the supporters of the National Government were opposed to it. I think it is disastrous that at such a moment this Bill should be proceeded with.

    We all feel, as the Prime Minister has said, with friends of ours, who are suffering from lack of means in their old age or with their dependants who are suffering, but, as a matter of fact, no income can ensure anyone against those disadvantages. The hon. Member for Rotherhithe said that the Bill did not concern him in any way. He speaks with great confidence, and I am glad that he is in such a strong position as to be perfectly confident that he, at any rate, will never be in need of assistance. Personally, and speaking for many of my hon. Friends, I know that it is a very unwise assertion to make that one will never have to face financial difficulties. Anybody who has any experience of this world is well aware of the fact that size of income is not the final test as to whether in old age we shall lack means ourselves or at death be unable to bequeath sufficient to our dependants to support them. Surely, experience shows that all these cases must be tested as cases by themselves. I know of cases where Members of the House have, owing to unforeseen circumstances, owing to their being cut off in the prime of life, left insufficient to support their dependants, not because of any lack of foresight, but because of ill-fortune. Time and again those cases have been met by the contributions of fellow Members. There have been cases of that sort among Members in every walk of life and every society. There have been cases where, for instance, children were ill-provided for and their education could not be completed, and friends and colleagues have generously subscribed.

    This Bill will not meet that difficulty. The sum of£150 a year will not meet the particular difficulty of tiding over a difficult period. That is a difficulty which can be met only by generous contributions from friends and colleagues, and those contributions, I must say, will not be forthcoming in the future when Members feel that they have already contributed out of their highly taxed salaries£12 a year towards the possible misfortunes of their fellow Members. If they are asked for a further contribution, they will feel that it is too much, and that they are already paying all which they can justly be called upon to pay towards the possible contingencies that arise in every walk of life.

    I suggest to hon. Members opposite that this Bill will not help them in their political future. It will be misrepresented in the country. This is a Bill which does not divide parties. It is a Bill which concerns all Members of Parliament. We all know that in our fights in our constituencies we have to meet with arguments which are not always fair or just, and the argument that will be stated against us is simply this, that at a time when we were taking on obligations unheard and undreamt of by all previous Parliaments to meet international conditions that had not been foreseen, when owing to those tremendous obligations and those increased payments in taxation we felt it impossible, for financial reasons, although many of us recognised the obligation, to increase the pittance given to old age pensioners, in the same week, and in the same Parliament in which we had increased our own salaries by£200, we spent the time of Parliament and the time of the nation in arranging a scheme, which has been denounced as a bad scheme, for giving a small pension to some unfortunate Members of Parliament who may not have made sufficient provision in their lives to support their dependants after they had departed.

    10.49 P.m.

    I think the House must now be nearly ready to divide on the Motion for the Second Reading of this Bill, which has now been debated for several hours, and I hope hon. Members will feel it is appropriate for me to say one or two words to wind up the Debate. We have heard a number of speeches both for and against the Bill. The general impression left upon my mind, I must say, is that hon. Members who have spoken have come here with their minds made up one way or the other, and that they are not very open to argument. I want at any rate to repeat what I said before, that in spite of what was said by my hon. Friend who moved the Amendment opposing the Second Reading of the Bill, this is a free vote of the House which is to be taken to-night, and I am not asking anybody to vote for the Bill because of any personal feelings of loyalty towards me or towards the Government. This is a matter which affects Members of the House alone, and I consider that every Member is entitled to make up his own mind as to the proper course to take, and to vote in accordance with his conscience.

    Having said that, let me say that it seems to me that there has been general agreement on one point—that the present position is unsatisfactory. Nobody has felt that it was creditable, or conducive to the dignity of the House as a whole, that it should be possible for men who have been Members of the House for a long period and who, as the hon. Member for Argyll (Mr. Macquisten) said in his amusing speech, had deprived themselves, or had been deprived by their service in this House of their usefulness in other directions, to find themselves in straightened circumstances and be compelled completely to change their standard and mode of life. The arguments that have been addressed against the Bill have not been on the grounds that some provision should not be made for such a contingency as that. They have been rather directed to the method or the time at which the Bill is brought forward.

    As to the method, there have been two lines of argument adduced against the method proposed in the Bill. One is that it would be far better to have a voluntary scheme. I do not want to repeat what I said in moving the Second Reading. I think I was able to show then that, as a practical measure, no voluntary scheme could be satisfactory, and no voluntary scheme has been brought forward or suggested which could provide what is requred. It is true, as was suggested by the hon. Member for Bolton (Sir J. Haslam), that there is nothing in the scheme to prevent the fund which is to be set up under the Bill being added to by voluntary contributions, whether gifts or legacies, by hon. Members, which would enable greater benefits to be given than are possible from the income obtained from the statutory deductions from Members salaries. But a voluntary scheme which means an uncertain income is one that cannot be considered adequate to meet the case.

    There is another line of argument that, if there is any justification for making periodical payments to former Members of this House, they should be made a charge on public funds, that we should have the courage of our opinions, and that as we have voted ourselves salaries so we should also vote ourselves pensions out of public funds. That is a very noble and courageous attitude to take up, but I would ask hon. Members to address themselves to this question—is it practical politics? Is anybody prepared to say that it is possible to get this House to pass a Measure, which would deserve the sort of censure which has been suggested by my right hon. Friend who has just spoken, at a time when many of us are saying that the finances of the country will not run to expensive schemes of social service which, on their merits, we should all desire to see carried out?

    I had not the opportunity of speaking, and I have a Motion on the Paper with regard to pensions and public assistance. May I ask the right hon. Gentleman what objection there would be to a scheme of national pensions in which everybody would be included at the same rate, irrespective of their status and whether they were inside or outside this House?

    I really do not think that is relevant to the point I am making, which is a very much narrower one and I am not prepared to enter upon a discussion of that kind now. I think the real question before us to-night is that which was put forcibly by the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan). We have a practical scheme before us now which can be carried out and which will achieve the general objects we have in mind. Is there any other scheme we can think of, which is likely to be more practical than the one now before the House? I venture to think there is not. The question is this—if we want a scheme at all, we had better take the scheme which is before us while we can get it, and not allow ourselves to be diverted by the possibility that some better scheme might be devised.

    It is a little difficult for me to meet two sets of objections at the same time. When the Resolution was adopted, there was criticism on the ground that it was indirectly a charge upon public funds. When we tried to meet that criticism by inserting a provision that deductions from salaries are still to be subject to Income Tax, we are then met with the opposite argument that that is a very unjust and unfair thing. Indeed, it is so contrary to the sense of justice of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Argyll (Mr. Macquisten), that at one moment he would have been prepared to vote against the Bill. I understand that although he is in favour of the principle of the Bill and although he voted for the Resolution, he still thinks he ought not to vote for the Bill on account of that provision. I suggest to him that what he wants to do is to vote for the Bill, and then, if he likes, to move an Amendment to omit the particular provision which will make the deduction from salaries subject to Income Tax. Although I sympathise with his feeling that it is repugnant to pay taxation on income which we have never received, yet a good many of us have to endure that injustice, if it be an injustice, at the present time.

    The incidence of Surtax comes not upon the reduced income after it has paid Income Tax, but upon the gross income before the deduction of Income Tax.

    Therefore, people have to pay Surtax on a certain amount of income which they have never received. I do not wish to detain the House by repeating arguments which have already been used, but I think the short point to be made is this. Here is a practical scheme which may be open to objections from one point of view or another, but which is not a scheme imposing any tax upon the general taxpayer. I confess I am not at all moved by the argument of some of my hon. and right hon. Friends that this might be made a subject of misrepresentation in the country. I have never thought it right to refrain from doing anything which I felt was right, because it was likely to be misrepresented in the country. I think it is the duty of hon. Members, if they think that a particular Measure is going to be misrepresented, to correct that misrepresentation.

    I cannot see how anybody can find it difficult to distinguish between a proposition which imposes no penny of charge upon the general taxpayer, and which is a private arrangement among Members of the House, and another proposition, which proposes to devote millions of the taxpayers' money to the benefits of a particular section of the community. I am not arguing the merits of that matter in the least. What I am saying is that there is no comparison whatsoever between any proposition to vary the rates of pensions, old age or any other kind, at the public charge and a scheme of this kind, which imposes no public charge at all. Anybody who says that he is unable to face his constituents to meet a charge of that kind does seem to me to be open to that charge of sloppy thinking of which we have heard during this Debate. I have said before that I am not going to bear any malice or resentment against any hon. Member who usually supports the Government, but who does not agree with the views that I have expressed on this Bill. At the same time, I venture to say, as Leader of the House, that I do hope that this Bill will be carried by a substantial majority, because I believe that in so doing it will be conducive to the dignity and the good name of this House.

    11.2 p.m.

    It is impossible for me to vote for this Bill so long as 10 per cent. of the old age pensioners have to seek public assistance. The second reason I oppose this Bill is that in these days, when democracy is in danger because people put self-interest before national interest and politicians outbid each other by offering more public money to individuals, we, as Members of Parliament, should give an example to the country and not vote for our own benefit, otherwise the only successful politicians at elections will be those who promise old age pensions with the birth certificate. It seems to me that we are doing the wrong thing in voting for this Bill. Having made this protest, I hope that we shall set an example to the nation by not voting for our own pensions before we provide for an increase in the old folks pensions.

    11.3 p.m.

    I am told, by hon. Friends near me, Mr. Speaker, that you have called me to speak. I take this opportunity of pointing out to my right

    Division No. 242.]

    AYES.

    [11.6 p.m.

    Adams, D. (Consett)Charleton, H. C.Foot, D. M.
    Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.)Chater, D.Frankel, D.
    Adamson, Jannie L. (Dartford)Clarke, Colonel R. S. (E. Grinstead)Fyfe, D. P. M.
    Adamson, W. M.Cluse, W. S.Gallacher, W.
    Alexander, Rt. Han. A. V. (H'lsbr.)Cocks, F. S.Gardner, B. W.
    Ammon, C. G.Collindridge, F.Garro Jones, G. M.
    Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)Colman, N. C. D,George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)
    Aske, Sir R. W.Cove, W. G.George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey)
    Astor, Major Hon. J. J. (Dover)Cripps, Hon. Sir StaffordGibbins, J.
    Balfour, G. (Hampstead)Crooks, Sir J. SmedleyGilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir J.
    Banfield, J W.Daggar, C.Gower, Sir R. V.
    Barnes, A. J.Dalton, H.Graham, D. M. (Hamilton)
    Barr, J.Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill)Green, W. H. (Deptford)
    Bartlett, C. V. O.Davits, C. (Montgomery)Greenwood, Rt. Han. A.
    Batey, J.Day, H.Grenfell, D. R.
    Bailer, A. BeverleyDenville, AlfredGriffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.)
    Beaumont, H. (Batley).Dobbie, W.Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)
    Bellenger, F. J.Dorman-Smith, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir R. H.Griffiths, J. (Llanelly)
    Benn, Rt. Hon. W. W.Dugdale, Captain T. L.Groves, T. E.
    Bevan, A.Dunn, E. (Rother Valley)Guest, Dr. L. H. (Islington, NO
    Bossom, A. C.Eekersley, P. T.Hall, G. H. (Aberdare)
    Broadbridge, Sir G. T.Ede, J. C.Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)
    Brown, C. (Mansfield)Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.)Hammersley, S. S.
    Buchanan, G.Edwards, Sir C. (Badwellty)Hannah, I. C.
    Burton, Col. H. W.Edwards, N. (Caarphilly)Hannon, Sir P. J. H.
    Campbell, Sir E. T.Elliston, Capt. G. S.Hardie, Agnes
    Cape, T.Entwistle, Sir C. F.Harris, Sir P. A.
    Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n)Evans, Colonel A. (Cardiff, S.)Harvey, T. E. (Eng. Univ's.)
    Channon, H.Evans, D. O. (Cardigan)Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton)
    Chapman, Sir S. (Edinburgh, S.)Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H.Hayday, A.

    hon. Friend the Prime Minister that it is so very seldom that some of his supporters get a chance of addressing this House, particularly on a question that affects us very much in our own divisions, that I have to insist, in spite of the invitation to divide, on putting one point to my right hon. Friend. He talked about misrepresentation in the divisions on this matter. There is one point that will not be misrepresented. It will be put point blank, and correctly, as far as I am concerned, and it is this: I, along with other Members of different parties, have had a Motion on the Paper for several months asking for time to be given to discuss a point which is of great interest to the local authorities of this country—the question of the old age pensioner who is compelled to seek the help of public assistance. I have been told by my right hon. Friend, and so have other hon. Members, that time could not be found to discuss that matter. That is a matter which affects at least 240,000 people, constituents of ours. This matter to-night, for which time has been found, affects how many? At the most 615, and I am afraid that that will be not misrepresented, but if it is put from my platform, it will be the truth.

    Question put, "That the word now stand part of the Question."

    The House divided: Ayes, 217; Noes, 112.

    Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)Maxton, J.Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A.
    Henderson, J. (Ardwick)Messer, F.Simpson, F. B.
    Henderson, T. (Tradeston)Milner, Major J.Sloan, A.
    Heneage, Lieut-Colonel A. P.Montague, F.Smith, Ben (Rotharhithe)
    Hills, A. (Pontefract)Moore, Lieut.-Col. Sir T. C. R.Smith, E. (Stoke)
    Hopkin, D.Morgan, J. (York, W.R., Doncaster)Smith, Rt. Hon. H. B. Lees(K'ly)
    Insklp, Rt. Hon. Sir T. W. H.Morris, J. P. (Salford, N.)Smith, T. (Normanton)
    Isaacs, G. A.Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.)Sorensen, R. W.
    Jagger, J.Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.)Spears, Brigadier-General E. L.
    Jarvis, Sir J. J.Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'I'd)
    Jenkins, A. (Pontypool)Nathan, Colonel H. L.Stephen, C.
    Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath)Naylor, T. E.Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)
    John, W.Nicholson, G. (Farnham)Stokes, R. R.
    Jones, A. C. (Shipley)Noel-Baker, P. J.Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)
    Kennedy, Rt. Hen. T.Oliver, G. H.Stuart, Lord C. Criehton- (N'thw'k)
    Kerr, Sir John Graham (Sco'sh Univs.)Owen, Major G.Sulcliffe, H.
    Kirby, B. V.Paling, W.Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)
    Kirkwood, D.Parkinson, J. A.Thorneycroft, G. E. P.
    Lansbury, Rt. Hon. G.Pearson, A.Thurtle, E.
    Latham, Sir P.Peters, Dr. S. J.Tinker, J. J.
    Lathan, G.Pethick-Lawrence, Rt. Hon. F. W.Titchfield, Marquess of
    Lawson, J. J.Price, M. P.Tomlinson, G.
    Leach, W.Pritt, D. N.Viant, S. P.
    Lee, F.Quibell, D. J. K.Wardlaw-Milne, Sir J. S.
    Lees-Jones, J.Rathbone, Eleanor (English Univ's.)Watkins, F. C.
    Leonard, W.Reed, A. C. (Exeter)Watson, W. McL.
    Leslie, J. R.Reed, Sir H. S. (Aylesbury)Watt, Lt.-Col. G. S. Harvie
    Liddall, W. S.Richards, R. (Wrexham)Wedderburn, H. J. S.
    Lloyd, G. W.Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)Welsh, J. C.
    Looker-Lampson, Comdr. O. S.Ridley, G.Westwood, J.
    Logan, D. G.Riley, B.Whiteley, W. (Blaydon)
    Lunn, W.Ritson, J.Wilkinson, Ellen
    McCorquodale, M. S.Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)
    Macdonald, G. (Ince)Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens)Williams, T. (Don Valley)
    MacDonald, Rt. Hon. M. (Ross)Rothschild, J. A. deWilmot, John
    McEntee, V. La T.Salt, E. W.Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)
    McGhee, H. G.Samuel, M. R. A.Womersley, Sir W. J.
    Maclean, N.Sanders, W. S.Woórlds, G. S. (Finsbury)
    Macquisten, F. A.Sexton. T. M.Young, Sir R. (Newton)
    Magnay, T.Shakespeare, G. H
    Mainwaring, W. H.Shinwell, E.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.

    Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.Shute, Colonel Sir J. J.Sir Assheton Pownall and Sir Francis Fremantle.
    Marshall, F,Silkin, L.
    Mathers, G.Silverman, S. S.

    NOES.

    Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. JHaslam, Henry (Horncastle)Nail, Sir J.
    Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.)Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.Neven-Spence, Major B. H. H.
    Alexander Brig.-Gen. Sir W.Higgs, W F.Peake, O.
    Allen, Col. J. Sandeman (B'knhead)Holmes, J. S.Prooter, Major H. A.
    Baldwin-Webb, Col. J.Horsbrugh, FlorenceRadford, E. A.
    Burnish, Rear-Admiral T P. H.Howitt, Dr. A. B.Rankin, Sir R.
    Beaumont, Hon. B. E. B. (Portsm'h)Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack, N.)Remer, J. R.
    Bird, Sir Ft. B.Hulbert, Squadron-Loader N. J.Ropner, Colonel L.
    Blair, Sir R.Hutchinson, G. C.Rosbotham, Sir T.
    Brocklebank, Sir EdmundJennings, R.Royds, Admiral Sir P. M. R.
    Brooke, H. (Lewisham, W.)Jones, Sir G. W. H. (S'k N'w'gt'n)Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen)
    Bull, B. B.Jones, L. (Swansea W.)Scott, Lord William
    Butcher, H. W.Kellett, Major E. O.Shaw, Captain W- T. (Forfar)
    Cartland, J. R. H.Kimball, L.Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)
    Chapman, A. (Rutherglen)Knox, Major-General Sir A. W. F.Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen)
    Conant, Captain R. J. E.Lamb, Sir J. Q.Smithers, Sir W.
    Cooper, Rt. Hn. A. Duff (W'st'r S. G'gs)Lambert, Rt. Hon. G.Snadden, W. McN.
    Craven-Ellis, W.Law, R. K. (Hull, S.W.)Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)
    Crott, Brig.-Gen. Sir H. PageLeighton, Major B. E. P.Tasker, Sir R. I.
    Crossley, A. C.Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L.Taylor, Vice-Adm. E A (Padd., 5.)
    Crowder, J. F. E.Levy, T.Thomson, Sir J. D. W.
    Culverwell, C. T.Lewis, O.Touche, G. C.
    Davidson, ViscountessLipson, D. L.Tree, A. R. L. F.
    Denman, Hon. R. D.Llewellin, Colonel J. J.Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.
    Duncan, J. A. L.Loftus, P.C.Wakefield, W. W.
    Eastwood, J. F.MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G.Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)
    Erskine-Hill, A. G.MacDonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend)
    Everard, Sir William LindsayMacdonald, Capt. P. (lilt of Wight)Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R.
    Fildes, Sir H.McEwen, Capt. J. H. F.Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G.
    Findlay, Sir E.McKie, J. H.Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
    Fleming, E. L.Makins, Brigadier-General Sir ErnestWise, A. R.
    Fox, Sir G. W. G.Markham, S. F.Wragg, H.
    Gledhill, G.Marsden, Commander A.York, C.
    Goldie, N. B.Mason, LI.-Col. Hon. G. K. M.Young, A. S. L. (Partick)
    Grattan-Doyle, Sir H.Meller, Sir R. J. (Mitcham)
    Gridley, Sir A. B.Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.

    Gritten, W. G. HowardMills, Major J. D. (New Forest)Mr. Hely-Hutchinson and Mr. Raikes.
    Hacking, Rt. Hon. Sir D. H.Mitchell, H. (Brentford and Chiswick)
    Hambro, A. V.Morgan, R. H. (Worcester, Stourbridge)

    Bill read a Second time.

    Motion made, and Question put, "That the Bill be committed to a Committee of the Whole House."—[ Captain Margesson]

    The House proceeded to a Division.

    SIR ASSHETON POWNALL and Sir FRANCIS FREMANTLE were appointed Tellers for the Ayes, but there being no Members willing to act as Tellers for the Noes, Mr. SPEAKER declared that the Ayes had it.

    Bill committed to a Committee of the Whole House for Monday next.

    Ways And Means

    Considered in Committee.

    [Colonel CLIFTON BROWN in the Chair.]

    HOUSE OF COMMONS MEMBERS FUND.

    Resolved,

    "That for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to provide for the making, in certain cases, of grants to, and to the widows of, persons who have been members of the House of Commons, the salary or pension of a Member from which deductions are to be made under the said Act shall not be treated for any of the purposes of the Income Tax Acts as reduced by reason of the provisions of the said Act or of deductions made pursuant thereto, and a Member shall not be entitled to any allowance, deduction or relief, under any provision of the Income Tax Acts by reason of such deductions and his income shall not be regarded as thereby diminished."—[Captain Crook-shank.]

    Ordered, "That the Chairman do report progress, and ask leave to sit again."—[ Captain Margesson]

    Resolution to be reported To-morrow.

    Committee also report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

    Water Supply Bill

    As amended ( in the Standing Committee), considered.

    New Clause—(Power Of Minister To Revise Water Rates Consequent On Provisions Of Act)

  • (1)The Minister, on an application made to him by any undertaker, may by order make such increase in the rates and charges which the undertakers are authorised to levy and make as he considers reasonable for the purpose of meeting any increase in the cost and charges of and incidental to the carrying on of the undertaking of the undertakers attributable to the provisions of this Act.
  • (2)An order under this Section may—
  • (a)fix the date as from which the rates and charges authorised by the order shall become operative, and
  • (b)contain such incidental, supplemental, and consequential provisions as may be necessary to give full effect to the order.
  • (3) The provisions of Sub-section (1) of Section two (Procedure for making orders) of the Water Undertakings (Modification of Charges) Act, 1921, and of the rules made by the Minister under that Section, shall apply with respect to the application for and the making of an order under this Section in like manner as they apply to applications for and the making of orders under that Act.
  • (4) On the making of an order under this Section the enactments relating to the undertakers shall have effect as if the rates and charges specified in the order were substituted for the rates and charges specified in those enactments.—[Sir A Southby.]
  • Brought up, read the First and Second times, and added to the Bill.

    Clause 4—(Separate Service Pipes May Be Required)

    Amendment made: In page 4, line 10, after "rates," insert" and the existing service pipe is sufficient to meet the requirements of the houses."—[ Sir A. Southby]

    Clause 8—(As To Laying And Maintenance Of Supply Pipes)

    Amendment made: In page 7, line 15, leave out "reasonable charges for so doing as they shall think fit," and insert:

    "charges for so doing as represent the actual cost incurred by them in the execution of such works."—[Mr. Ede.]

    Clause 9—(Undertakers To Connect Supply Pipes With Communication Pipes)

    Amendment made: In page 7, line 35, leave out from "may," to "and," in line 37, and insert:

    "charge the actual cost of executing any work under this Section."—[Mr. Ede.]

    Clause 18—(Short Title, Commencement And Extent)

    Amendment made: In page 11, line 37, leave out from "the," to the end of line 39, and insert:

    "first day of April, nineteen hundred and forty:
    Provided that the Minister may on the application of any undertaker make an order postponing the application of all or any of the provisions of this Act to that undertaker until such later date as he may think fit, having regard to all circumstances."—[Sir A. Southby.]

    Bill to be read the Third time upon Tuesday, 3rd October.

    The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

    Adjournment

    Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[ Captain Margesson]

    Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-five Minutes after Eleven o'Clock