House Of Commons
Thursday, 27th July, 1939.
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
Old Age Pensions
It is my privilege to present a petition to this honourable House on behalf of old age pensioners, and it reads as follows:
This petition is signed by 249,086 persons who are residents in the following Parliamentary constituencies: Aberavon, Aberdare, Abertillery, Caerphilly, Merthyr, Llanelly, Pontypridd, Rhondda East, Rhondda West, and Ogmore."To the Honourable the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in Parliament assembled: The humble petition of residents of Parliamentary Divisions hereinafter mentioned pray that the House may grant facilities for an increase in the old age pension, whereby the poverty which is being sustained as a consequence of its inadequacy may be overcome. And the petitioners will ever pray, as in duty bound, that relief by an increase in the amount of the present old age pension will be granted."
I beg to present petitions sent by 143,000 persons living in the Metropolitan area, and including nearly 40,000 from various churches and religious denominations, 54,000 from women's cooperative guilds and 10,000 from my own constituency of Bow and Bromley. The object of the petitions is to ask this honourable House that a Measure be brought forward having for its object an increase in old age pensions, which the petitioners contend should be £1 per week for men and women, and the removal of all anomalies attached to the present granting of pensions. That is the substance of the petitions that I wish to present to the House.
I beg to present to the House a petition praying for facilities for increased old age pensions whereby poverty which now exists, owing to the insufficiency of the pensions, might be overcome.
It affords me very great pleasure, and it is a great privilege as well, to be able to produce and present a petition representing 30,000 old age pensioners, asking for an increase in the old age pension to save them from the poverty from which they now suffer.
I beg to present a petition on behalf of some 36,000 people of Cumberland, Workington, Ripley and Rossendale, praying that the old age pension should be increased, whereby the poverty which is being sustained as a direct consequence of its inadequacy may be overcome. The petitioners pray that we, in this House, may do our duty faithfully and well. '
I beg to present a petition from 46,848 old age pensioners. It shows that they regard the present scale of old age pension as totally inadequate to meet the present cost of living.
I am privileged to have the opportunity to present a petition on behalf of 29,300 old age pensioners in this country, and would draw your attention to their request that the pension be increased to £1 per week. They pray that the petition may be accepted and acceded to.
It is my privilege to present to this Honourable House a petition signed by more than 30,000 old age pensioners in my constituency, praying for an increase in their old age pensions at the earliest possible date.
I beg to present a petition on behalf of several thousands of old age pensioners, showing the conditions of the aged people and praying that the pension should be increased to £1 per week for men and women, in order to relieve them from their preset distress.
Will the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Rugby (Captain Margesson) take notice of that?
Private Business
Bootle Corporation Bill [ Lords],
Macclesfield Corporation Bill [Lords],
Read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments.
Aberdeen Harbour (Superannuation) Order Confirmation Bill,
Considered; to be read the Third time To-morrow.
Dunbartonshire County Council (Kirkintolloch Street Improvement) Order Confirmation Bill,
Order for Consideration read.
Might I ask a question regarding this Bill? Is it essential that the Dunbartonshire County Council has to come to this House to ask for liberty to improve the streets of Kirkintilloch? I think it is absolutely ridiculous.
The Dunbartonshire County Council have to conform to the regulations, the same as others.
Bill considered; to be read the Third time To-morrow.
Lanarkshire County Council Order Confirmation Bill,
Motherwell and Wishaw Electricity, Etc., Order Confirmation Bill,
Considered; to be read the Third time To-morrow.
Oral Answers To Questions
Unemployment
Disabled Ex-Service Men
1.
asked the Minister of Labour whether there has been a decrease in unemployment among disabled ex-Service men comparable with the decrease in unemployment among the insured males; and whether he can state the figures for unemployment among disabled ex-Service men at suitable dates in each quarter of the last 12 months?
As the reply includes a number of figures, I will, if I may, circulate a statement in the Official Report.
Following is the statement:
Between 9th January and 3rd April, 1939 (the latest date for which such figures are available) the number of disabled ex-Service men registered as unemployed at Employment Exchanges in Great Britain decreased by 10.9 per cent. Between 16th January and 17th April, 1939, the total number of unemployed insured men, aged 21-64, on the registers decreased by 19.4 per cent. The following table shows the numbers of unemployed disabled ex-Service men on the registers of Employment Exchanges in Great Britain at recent quarterly dates:
Date.
| Number.
|
| 4th April, 1938 | 31,333 |
| 4th July, 1938 | 29,925 |
| 3rd October, 1938 | 30,204 |
| 9th January, 1939 | 33,350 |
| 3rd April, 1939 | 29,700 |
Holiday Payments
2.
asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that more than 200 men have been suspended from work at Bowhill colliery, Fife, and have been informed that unemployment benefit will not be paid if the men are drawing holiday pay; that in the case of a man working 30 weeks in the pit he receives only 5d. more than he would get as unemployment pay although he has been contributing to this holiday pay by means of deductions all the while that he was working; and whether he will take steps to remedy this anomaly?
I understand that the insurance officer has now decided that these miners may take advantage of the Customary or Recognised Holiday Provisional Regulations which I made on 14th July. This will mean that they will not necessarily be disallowed benefit for the whole of the holiday week but only for as many days as their holiday payments represent in wages.
Discharged Soldiers
4.
asked the Minister of Labour what percentage of the total number of discharged Regular soldiers are in receipt of unemployment benefit; and how this percentage compares with the figures for all registered workers?
At 19th June, 1939, the latest date for which figures are available, about 6.4 per cent, of discharged Regular soldiers holding current unemployment books were registered as unemployed at Employment Exchanges in Great Britain. The corresponding figure for all insured males, aged 16-64,was 9.5 Per cent. Figures for the number of discharged Regular soldiers in receipt of unemployment benefit are not available.
Is it not a fact that the proportion of pensioners is larger than that of ordinary workers?
:My hon. and gallant Friend will sec that there are less proportionately. In one case the proportion is one to nine and in the other one to 6.4.
Ordnance Works, Glascoed
5.
asked the Minister of Labour the number of men employed at the Glascoed ordnance works and the number recruited through the Employment Exchanges in Monmouthshire?
I am informed that the number of workpeople employed on the construction of the Glascoed ordnance works on 21st July was 6,046. Since the beginning of the work, 4,535 workpeople have been engaged through the Employment Exchanges in Monmouthshire. In addition, 721 workmen (mostly skilled) from other areas have been engaged through the medium of the temporary employment office on the site.
Have not most of the 6,046 who are now employed been recruited from outside; and, in view of the fact that 4,000 people are still unemployed in the area, does not the right hon. Gentleman think that the people in the locality should be employed first?
We like to do that.
6.
asked the Minister of Labour the number of men of 50 years of age and upwards who have been recruited through the Employment Ex changes of Monmouthshire for employment at the Glascoed ordnance works and the number of such men who are now in employment at the works?
I regret that this information is not available, but a rough count on Friday last showed that there are at least 475 men aged 50 or over engaged on the works.
Tinplate And Steel-Sheet Workers, Carmarthenshire
7.
asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that the owners of the tinplate and steel- sheet works at Glanamman, Garnant, and Brynamman, Carmarthenshire, have indicated to the local authorities in the area that they propose to abandon those works; and whether he will make representations to the owners to endeavour to secure the re-opening of all or some of these works or alternatively take measures to provide new industries for these areas?
I understand that the works at Glanamman, Garnant and Brynamman have been idle since March, 1930, July, 1930, and May, 1929, respectively. As a result of the representations made when a deputation was received on my behalf in May last, I approached my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal about the possibility of using the Raven sheet works at Glanamman in connection with A.R.P. contracts. I found that he had already been in communication with the owners and, unfortunately, it had been found that these works were in such a derelict state that the cost of putting them into production was prohibitive. I have no information about the possibility of re-opening the works at Garnant and Brynamman. In reply to the last part of the question, I have nothing to add to the statements already made about the measures available to encourage the establishment of new 'industrial undertakings in areas of heavy unemployment outside the Special Areas.
Is the Minister aware that the statement made to him that the cost of re-opening Glanamman works would be prohibitive is denied by the workmen, and will he use his influence to secure that reopening?
That is now the policy. With regard to the first part of the supplementary question, the answer is something between £6,ooo and £7,000.
Does the right hon. Gentleman think that a cost of £6,000 in renewal of the works is prohibitive to a firm that is receiving Government orders worth tens of thousands of pounds?
I have answered both the questions of the hon. Member. He knows that a petition from the council was made.
Special Areas (New Hosiery Factories)
8.
asked the Minister of Labour when new hosiery factories are established with Government or other assistance in the Special Areas, the Commissioners consult with, or inform the National Joint Industrial Council of the Hosiery Trade, and, if not, will he make representations that such consultations should take place?
On 24th March last, Sir George Gillett, then Commissioner for the Special Areas, met a deputation of representatives of employers' and workers' organisations in the hosiery trade, including the chairman of the Joint Industrial Council. Since that date the Commissioner, in conformity with arrangements agreed with the deputation, has, through his representatives, consulted the National Federation of Hosiery Manufacturers' Associations on a number of individual cases in which he has been asked to assist the establishment of hosiery undertakings in the Special Areas. The Commissioner is, however, unable to accept responsibility for consulting representatives of the industry when he is not directly concerned.
Has any application for a new hosiery factory been made for Greenock, which is a Special Area, and where there is skilled labour of the appropriate type available?
That does not arise out of the question on the Paper.
Trainees (Employment Records)
9.
asked the Minister of Labour what records are kept of the permanence of positions obtained by men who have obtained these positions on leaving Government instructional centres and training centres; and what results are shown by such records?
No such records are kept in respect of men leaving instructional centres. Sample inquiries are conducted into the progress of a number of men leaving Government training centres each year. The inquiry in respect of men leaving in 1937 (which is the last completed) covered approximately 25 per cent, of the total who completed a course that year, and showed that the average amount of employment per man was 41 weeks in the 12 months after leaving the centre. Forty per cent, of the cases examined had no unemployment at all in the whole 12 months (in the engineering group of trades this figure was 50 per cent.). Of the 60 per cent, who had some unemployment during the 12 months, under one-third had been unemployed only for periods varying between one and eight weeks. The average unemployment recorded per man was 10 weeks. Sickness, etc., accounted for one week per man.
Are these the fullest records that can be got?
Yes, certainly. I had this specially done because of my own and the public interest in the matter.
Are records kept of any alternative work which these persons could accept when they have finished their training?
This is a very large and detailed undertaking, and I could not, of course, hope to give a further reply.
Assistance
10.
asked the Minister of Labour the reason why, in the Glasgow districts 1 and 2 of the Unemployment Assistance Board, the payments of unemployment allowances made through the Employment Exchanges are, for the week ending 12th May, 1939, in district 1 only equal to the average of all the districts, and in district 2 are less than the average, although the total number of payments for both Glasgow districts is higher than in any other part in the country, including the three districts of London, and is indicative of a larger volume of long-period unemployment?
I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to a similar question by the hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. D. Graham) on 28th June.
11.
asked the Minister of Labour how many unemployed persons have been sent by the Unemployment Assistance Board into a workhouse; and the average length of time the' are compelled to stay in the workhouse?
Up to the end of June, 1939, a total of 266 determinations under Section 40 (2) (d) of the Unemployment Assistance Act, 1934, had been made, and in 72 cases the applicant concerned entered an institution. The period of residence in an institution depends on the circumstances of the individual case and no figures showing the average period of residence are available. Determinations made under this Sub-section are subject to review at any time, and are formally reviewed not later than three months after the man first enters the institution.
Surely the Minister can say how long these men have been compelled to stay in the workhouse while they have been refused unemployment benefit. Surely the number is sufficiently large to enable an average time to be stated?
We can only deal with each individual case on its merits. As the hon. Member knows, these are difficult cases.
How is it that the Minister can give an average when it suits him? Why cannot he give an average now?
In these difficult cases, what alternative to going into the workhouse is given to these men?
As the hon. Gentleman knows, it is not an alternative. As he knows, some thousands have come out of institutions. It was always contemplated that there would be, and it is a fact that there is, a number of difficult cases. As regards estimates ahead, the numbers have proved to be much less than we expected.
Are they given a chance of work?
If it is available.
Work Centres
12.
asked the Minister of Labour how many work centres have been started by the Unemployment Assistance Board; how many unemployed persons have been sent to them; and the length of time they have to stay?
One work centre has been opened by the Unemployment Assistance Board. Determinations requiring attendance at this centre have been issued to 43 applicants, of whom 26 have attended. The period of attendance depends on the circumstances of the particular case. The form of determination used in these cases provides that it may be reviewed at any time, and will be reviewed at the end of three months from the date of first attendance.
Ex-Service Men (Post Office Employment)
15.
asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that in certain Employment Exchanges in the country notices are posted advertising employment for ex-service men at the General Post Office, the age of the men must be under 40 years of age; whether he will explain to the House the reason for the age limit and the nature of the work advertised; and whether he will make inquiries with a view to eliminating this age limit?
A notice of this nature was exhibited at the Rotherham Employment Exchange recently, relating to vacancies for postmen. With regard to the second part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member, to the reply given by my right hon. Friend the Postmaster-General on 8th February, 1938, to a question on this subject put by the hon. Member for Romford (Mr. Parker).
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to repeat that answer, because I could not hear it owing to the noise?
I referred the hon. Member to a long answer given by the Postmaster-General on 8th February, 1938. Perhaps the hon. Member will read the answer and communicate with me again if necessary.
Naval Pensioners
16.
asked the Minister of Labour whether he can supply information as to the numbers of naval pensioners unemployed in the three naval ports; the number employed part-time; and the number who have ceased to be in benefit?
I regret that statistics giving the information desired are not available.
Seasonal Workers (Benefit)
18.
asked the Minister of Labour the number of persons in Great Britain who are definitely registered as seasonal workers; and the number regarded as being entitled to full, or less than full, insurance benefit rights?
I regret that statistics giving the information desired are not available.
Is it not possible to use some of the surplus of the Unemplyoment Assistance Fund for these workers?
The House knows that this matter was considered a few years ago, and a certain amendment made.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that while no statistics are available, there is plenty of evidence that a good deal of injustice is being done to seasonal workers?
Teeside (Industries)
19.
asked the Minister of Labour what is being done to prevent the closing down of industries in the Teesside area; what steps have been taken to bring new industries into the district; and how many Government contracts have been allotted to the area?
I am having further inquiries made into these matters, and I will write to the hon. Member as soon as possible.
Secondary School Boys And Girls
22.
asked the Minister of Labour whether steps are being taken to extend the system of special regional committees and councils '10 advise boys and girls from secondary schools as to the choice of a career; how soon such committees and councils may be expected to be set up in Durham and the North-East of England; and whether, in the absence of such committees and councils, he will cause records to be kept of vacancies notified to heads of secondary schools in all parts of the country, of vacancies filled, and of secondary school leavers who remain without employment?
The establishment of further special regional committees to advise boys and girls from secondary schools as to the choice of a career is under consideration, but it is not at present possible to say whether and when such committees can be established for Durham and the North-East of England. With reference to the second part of the question, I am in communication with my hon. Friend the President of the Board of Education.
When does the Minister anticipate such committees being set up?
I cannot say now, but I will let the House know. The present committees are doing admirable work.
Will it be at an early date?
I think so.
Domestic Servants
24.
asked the Minister of Labour whether he has considered the case of a young domestic servant at the Maesteg police court. South Wales, on Monday last; and whether he will state the information given by the managers of Employment Exchanges to women sent to applicants for domestic servants?
My present information is that this girl was not in touch with an Employment Exchange, but I am not aware of the full facts of the case, and am having inquiries made. I will communicate with the hon. Member as soon as possible. As regards the second part of the question, the exchanges endeavour to obtain from prospective employers full particulars of the terms offered, and place them before the women applicants.
Government Policy
25.
asked the Minister of Labour what schemes the Government have in contemplation for providing employment and facilitating production when the arms programme is completed?
I would refer the hon. Member to the statement I made in the course of the Debate on 30th June last.
Cannot the right hon. Gentleman be a little more definite than he was on that occasion? Is there not a Cabinet Committee dealing with this matter, and does the right hon. Gentleman not realise that there are many apprehensions in the public mind as to the Government's intentions?
Yes, but apprehensions may not always be well-founded.
Cannot the right hon. Gentleman be a little more definite, and say whether a Cabinet Committee is dealing with this matter?
That is another question, which the hon. Member knows should not be put to me. The statement that I made before was definite, and was well received.
Employment Books (Women, Glasgow Exhibition)
3.
asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that a number of women employed by Messrs. Millard and Company, of Old Bond Street, London, at the Glasgow Exhibition, have not yet received their employment books, and that in some cases the necessary stamps were not fixed to the insurance cards; whether the local officials have yet collected the contributions due; and whether any legal action against the firm, under Sub-section (5) of Section 8 of the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1935, is contemplated?
I understand that owing to the default of a servant of Messrs. Millard and Company the unemployment books of certain of their employés were not returned to them when they left the firm, and cannot be recovered. New unemployment books have been issued and all arrears of contributions have been paid by the firm, except in one case where the exact duration of the worker's employment has not yet been established. No legal action against the firm is contemplated.
May we take it that the workers will not suffer loss as a consequence of these regulations?
That is so.
International Maritime Conventions
13.
asked the Minister of Labour whether he has any information as to which of the draft conventions on maritime questions adopted at Geneva in 1936 were ratified as a result of the decisions recently taken by the French Senate and Chamber of Deputies; and whether he proposes to ratify these also?
The most recent information which I have regarding the action taken by the French Government in respect of the Conventions referred to is contained in Industrial and Labour Information for 17th July, 1939, a copy of which will be found in the Library. It is there stated that on 15th June, 1939, the Senate adopted Bills, which had previously been passed by the Cham- ber of Deputies, to ratify the Officers' Competency Certificates Convention, the Holidays with Pay (Sea) Convention, and the Shipowners' Liability (Sick and Injured Seamen) Convention. The proposed action by His Majesty's Government regarding the six Maritime Conventions in question will be found in Cmd. 5745, which was presented to Parliament in May, 1938.
Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that the final adoption of these conventions depends upon Great Britain and other countries; and should not this country be prepared to set an example to other countries?
The White Paper shows that in many respects Great Britain does, by her influence, show an example.
Baking Industry (Trade Board)
14.
asked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of the opposition of the Metropolitan Joint Committee of Master and Operative Bakers and Confectioners to the proposals of the trade board for the baking industry, he will cause further investigation to be made before confirming the board's decision?
These proposals have been under examination by the trade board and its district committees, and by the trade generally for more than 12 months, and the board, upon which all branches of the trade are fully represented, decided unanimously to submit them for confirmation. After considering all the relevant facts, including the representations to which my hon. Friend refers, I have reached the conclusion that there are no grounds which would justify me in withholding confirmation. The minimum rates fixed by the board will become operative as from Monday, 4th September, and notices to this effect will be circulated to employers in the course of the next few weeks.
Will my right hon. Friend give this matter a little deeper thought? Is he aware that poverty and unemployment may be caused; and does he not think that the small man is entitled to a square deal?
I have given the matter as deep thought as the hon. Member has.
Is the Minister aware that his announcement will be received with deep appreciation by all employers and workers in the baking industry; and is he, further, aware that the organisation referred to in the question resembles that of the three tailors of Tooley Street, in that it is most unsatisfactory?
I believe that this arrangement will be generally welcomed, and it is a fact that, of the 16 members composing the employers' side of the board, six represented small working bakers and their associations.
Does the Minister want to see the small man victimised?
Certainly not. These small men are not victimised; they welcome this arrangement.
Military Training
One-Man Businesses
17.
asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that Andrew Brown, hairdresser, Bruce Street, Dunfermline, whose calling up for military training has been postponed till the 1st September owing to his being the owner of a one-man business, has never been insured for unemployment benefit; what provision will he make for the maintenance of Brown on his return from military training in the event of his having to dispose of his business and failing to find employment at his trade; and why is the owner of a one-man business to be placed in a worse position than men otherwise employed?
I am aware that Mr. Andrew Brown is not insurable under the Unemployment Insurance Acts. The Hardship Committee granted postponement in the hope that satisfactory arrangements could be made as regards his business, but if after training he is obliged to dispose of the business and fails to find employment at his trade, the resources of the Employment Exchange service will be available to him. As regards the last part of the question, I cannot accept the statement that owners of one-man businesses generally are placed in a worse position than men otherwise employed.
What means of maintenance will this man have after his return from military service. At the moment he is faced with a dilemma. If he puts in a man to keep his business going he will lose money, while if he sells his business he will be without a job when he comes back. He is not insured against unemployment; what is the right hon. Gentleman going to do to maintain him?
I cannot answer the two hypothetical questions, but, as regards the question of finance, as the hon. Member knows, if he has not completed his arrangements by 1st September he can apply for a further postponement, and, if there are financial difficulties, there is a tribunal under the Act for the purpose of dealing with the question.
Would the Minister mind answering the last part of the question?
Is the Minister aware that this man is most anxious to complete his six months training as soon as possible, and that, in order to make arrangements, he wants to know his position?
I will inquire into the matter and see what arrangements can be made.
Can the Minister tell us whether anyone in a similar position has yet received a grant to enable him to keep his business open?
That is a different question.
Unemployed Men
21.
asked the Minister of Labour how many men between the ages of 20 and 21 years are now signing the unemployment register; is he aware of the difficulty these young men have in finding employment; and will he arrange for unemployed men to be at once called up for training so that they may afterwards get a chance of employment in their normal occupation?
The available statistics do not enable me to answer the first part of the question. As regards the second and third parts, I would refer the hon. Member to previous answers on the same subject, the latest being that given to the hon. Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Rhys Davies) on 6th July
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that some of the people about whom I have sent him particulars have been told that they are not likely to be called up before November? Are they to remain out of work until November, and to be a public charge?
The answer points out that arrangements have been made, as far as possible, to meet such cases. If the hon. Member has any cases, perhaps he will bring them to my notice.
I gave you six.
27.
asked the Minister of Labour whether he will look into the case of Joseph Green, 98, Lord Street, Leigh, who is unemployed and who should have been called up this month but whose calling up has been deferred until September, whose statutory benefit is exhausted, and who cannot get allowance from the Unemployment Assistance Board because the means of the household are slightly above the scale; and will he see what can be done in the interval of Green being called up?
I am having inquiries made, and will write to the hon. Member as soon as possible.
Discharged Employes
23.
asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that Mr. N. Makepiece, of Castleford, who will be 20 years of age in August next, has been discharged by Slaters Tea Stores, Pontefract, and a man 28 years of age employed in his place; whether he will have inquiries made; and what action he proposes to take to prevent employers getting rid of young men just prior to their being called up for military training?
I am making inquiries into this case, and will write to the hon. Member when they are complete. As regards the second part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the Military Training (Prevention of Evasion) Regulations, 1939, which came into operation on 9th June.
May we take it that action will be taken against these employers?
Wherever we get evidence, we shall certainly take action to the maximum of our powers. In many cases ex parte statements which have been made have not been proved.
Will there be a black-list of these employers?
We must first prove the cases. I quite understand that the House and the country desire the utmost power of the law to be used where there is evidence which proves a case.
I sent the Minister particulars of a case where the facts were crystal clear, and no action was taken.
I did not agree that the facts were crystal clear.
How many hundreds of cases have been communicated to the Minister?
Singularly few cases. Not more than 60 all told, out of a total of over 50,000.
26.
asked the Minister of Labour whether his attention has been called to the case of John Adrian Hey-wood, of 52, Bradley Hall Road, Nelson, Lancashire, who is now 20 years of age, who has worked for Messrs. Jepson, Bardsley and Jepson, Carr Dye Works, Nelson, since he was 14 years of age and who has now been dismissed; and, as this is a breach of the regulations under the Military Training Act, what action he proposes to take?
I am making inquiries into this case, and will write to the hon. Member when they are complete.
Will the right hon. Gentleman, when he is considering this, bear in mind that this boy has been given a testimonial which says: "To all whom it may concern"—
The hon. Member cannot give this information at Question Time.
Send it to me.
I am sure it will be realised that by the time the right hon. Gentleman writes to me this House will be no longer sitting. I want to direct the right hon. Gentleman's attention—
This is a time for asking questions and not for making a statement.
If I cannot put a supplementary question about it, I must give notice that, owing to the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.
Catering Trade (Wages And Hours Of Work)
20.
asked the Minister of Labour whether his attention has been called to the hours and conditions of workers in clubs and hotels; and whether he will consider extending the Trades Board Act to more of the catering trade?
I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given to the question put by the hon. Member for Durham, Sedgefield (Mr. Leslie) on 29th June last.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that one of the workers in this House, which, after all, is the best club in the world, starts at seven—
rose —
Retail Distributive Trades (Employes' Conditions)
28.
asked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of the hardship caused in the retail distributive trades by very long hours and conditions of employment, he will expedite the consideration of the report of the Retail Trades Distributive Conference and state what action he will take to remedy these conditions?
My hon. Friend may rest assured that there will be no avoidable delay in reaching a conclusion on this very important matter. It will, however, be appreciated that the machinery for regulating the conditions of employment of a group comprising some 2,000,000 of workers employed by a very large number of employers calls for very careful examination.
Tailors (Displacement)
29.
asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that tailoring firms not ordinarily engaged on Government contracts are being compelled to displace hand-workers in order to manufacture uniforms to Government specification; and what action he proposes to ensure the continued employment of these hand-workers?
I am not aware of this circumstance. If the hon. Member will be good enough to send me particulars of the displacement to which he refers I shall be glad to look into the matter.
Civil Defence
University Teachers
30.
asked the Minister of Labour whether the register of university teachers referred to in the National Service Handbook has been compiled; and what forms of service they will be called upon to undertake?
Members of staffs of universities have recently been re-circularised to ascertain their willingness to be enrolled on the Central Register of persons with special qualifications, and the bulk of the replies have now been received. The object of the Register is to-provide a ready means of selecting qualified persons for vacancies in war-time as and when they may arise; it is not in general possible to specify these vacancies in advance nor is any guarantee given that a post will be offered.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say what kind of employment they will be called upon to undertake?
I could not do that in answer to a supplementary question. The House will see that there is a whole range of scientific and special forms of employment available.
I am not asking the right hon. Gentleman to do so in answer to a supplementary question, but in answer to the question itself.
I have said that, in general, I could not do that.
Shelters
31.
asked the Lord Privy Seal whether he is aware that cases have occurred where firms desirous of giving their employés the most effective form of bomb-proof shelters have been instructed by the factory inspector that only a cheaper splinter-proof shelter can be approved; and why he is discouraging firms from providing the most effective shelter within their means?
There is nothing in the Civil Defence Act, and it would be far from my intention, to prevent employers from providing shelter in excess of the standard prescribed by the Code wherever they think fit to do so. It is, however, right that inspectors should see that employers are not left under any misapprehension regarding the basis of Government grant provided under the Act. As was made clear when the Bill was under discussion, grant is payable in respect of expenditure in excess of the cost of shelter conforming to the Code standard only where previous approval is sought and obtained as contemplated by Section 22 (4) of the Act.
Will the Minister agree to meet a delegation of the people affected, who are very definite in their complaint, which is set out in the question?
Certainly, Sir.
32.
asked the Lord Privy Seal the number of steel shelters that have been distributed free of cost in Birmingham up to date; and when the distribution will be completed?
The total number of shelters so far allocated to Birmingham from contractors' works is 65,266. On the basis of the expected rate of production and the capacity of the local authority to accept deliveries, the free distribution to Birmingham will be completed by mid November next.
39.
asked the Lord Privy Seal whether any foreign governments and, if so, which, have supplied their vulnerable areas with steel shelters similar to the Anderson shelters issued in this country?
I am not aware that any foreign Government is making a free distribution of domestic shelters similar to those which are being distributed in this country.
42 and 141.
asked the Lord Privy Seal what provision has been made in the form of bomb-proof shelters for the protection in emergency of dock and warehouse workers, and others, in the port of Liverpool who would be required to remain at work during air raids;
2) asked the Minister of Transport what progress has been made in providing bomb-proof shelters for office workers and shop assistants employed in large block-buildings and emporiums in such large cities as London, Liverpool, Birmingham, Manchester and Glasgow?I will, with permission, also answer Question No. 141, to which I have been asked to reply. There are already in existence at the Port of Liverpool blast and splinter proof shelters of an approved type which will accommodate in culverts, trenches and vaults, nearly 40 per cent, of the men likely to be found on the dock estate, excluding men working on ships who would find shelter in the ships. The Dock Board are now actively proceeding with the construction of further shelters of an approved type which, when completed, will be capable of accommodating; all persons likely to be found on the dock estate in war time. As regards the provision of shelter for offices workers and shop assistants in Liverpool and other large cities, the Civil Defence Act has only been in force for a fortnight, and I am not yet in possession of any returns showing the extent to which shelter for such employés has been provided.
Arising out of that part of the answer which says that 60 per cent, will find shelter in ships, will the right hon. Gentleman say in what part of the ships these people will find shelter?
The hon. Gentleman must have misheard my reply. I said that already provision has been made for 40 per cent, of the people likely to be present on the dock side, excluding those working in connection with ships, and that shelter accommodation for the remaining 60 per cent. is in course of being brought into existence.
Tenements, Scotland
35.
asked the Lord Privy Seal whether he is now in a position to make a further statement relative to the air-raid protection which is being provided for the dwellers who are living in tenements in the cities in Scotland?
Good progress has been made in the discussions which are being held between the technical officers of my Department and the local authorities concerned: but those discussions are still proceeding, and I think it better to defer making any further statement for the time being.
When does the right hon. Gentleman expect that the progress of these discussions will be completed and action taken?
I hope within the next few days.
Are representatives from the large burghs of Scotland being included in these discussions?
The discussions are with the representatives of the particular cities and centres concerned.
Air-Raid Precautions Services
36.
asked the Lord Privy Seal how many towns have now reported that they have got 100 per cent, recruitment of air-raid precautions workers; and whether he can give the names of the first six towns to report success to this degree?
No towns in respect of which separate statistics are available have as yet actually secured the full complement of volunteers required for war establishments and reserves in each of the various Air-Raid Precautions Services, though in a number of cases the deficiencies still remaining are insignificant, and in others the problem is in the main one of redistribution, the numbers enrolled being in excess of the total required. Volunteers are still being enrolled, the actual rate of enrolment according to the latest returns being over 21,000 a week.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that A.R.P. has taken a new name now, and is called the "Anglo-Russian Pact"?
38.
asked the Lord Privy Seal the total number, of all grades, at present enlisted in the air-raid precautions services of this country; and the percentages of men and women so enlisted?
On 8th July, the latest date for which the figures are available, the numbers enrolled for Air-Raid (General) Precautions Services were 915,541 men and 568,488 women. The corresponding figures for the Auxiliary Fire Service were 179,661 men and 10,466 women, and for the Auxiliary Police Force 241,246 men.
40.
asked the Lord Privy Seal the numbers of steel helmets and gas-masks that will have been issued for air-raid precautions services by the end of this month?
Issues for local air-raid precautions services, including police and fire services, will by the end of this month have amounted to 1,900,000 respirators and over 1,100,000 steel helmets.
Evacuation
37.
asked the Lord Privy Seal whether he will consider the provision of facilities for all women who desire to be evacuated from dock areas and other dangerous districts in time of war?
The Government evacuation scheme provides for detailed plans for the evacuation from congested areas of school children, young children and their mothers and expectant mothers. I believe that the proposal to give priority to the claims of these groups commands general acceptance, and I am sure it is right to concentrate attention for the present on the completion of these detailed plans. At the same time, it is the policy of the Government to be prepared for all eventualities; and the possibility of a wider measure of evacuation from some of the most vulnerable areas is kept constantly in view.
Will the right hon. Gentleman keep in mind the fact that the more women that could be removed from these very dangerous areas, the less chance there would be of panic taking place should trouble come; and will the Government keep that point of view closely in mind?
Yes, Sir, that is one of the considerations to be kept in mind.
54.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education whether he is aware that students of Queen Mary College, London University, are to be evacuated to Cambridge in the event of a national emergency; and whether, as they will be required to pay £2 a week, he will say what steps he proposes to take in the case of those students who have not the means to pay this sum?
The evacuation arrangements affecting London University students are being made by the appropriate University authorities, who will be responsible for considering any necessary financial measures.
Women (Specialist Work)
41.
asked the Lord Privy Seal whether he is aware that there are many professional women who are anxious to render National Service but are incapable of taking up physically strenuous work; and whether he will make known the forms of National Service in which the training and experience of such women can be utilised?
Women with special professional, scientific or technical qualifications who would be prepared to undertake work of a specialist character in the event of emergency should communicate with the Ministry of Labour, who are maintaining a central register of the names of persons so qualified who would be available in time of war to meet the needs of Government Departments and industrial concerns for additional technical and professional staff.
Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to make that known to the women concerned?
I will do anything I can in that direction.
X-Ray Apparatus
73.
asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that a portion of a large number of X-ray units for civil hospitals in time of emergency now being constructed for, or on behalf of the Ministry of Health, are being fitted with X-ray tubes of British manufacture and a greater portion with foreign X-ray tubes, although British tubes are available and efficient; and will he recommend that only British X-ray tubes be fitted in all such units?
The majority of the tubes for mobile X-ray apparatus ordered for the emergency hospitals are to be British and the remainder American. The orders were placed with the British X-ray Engineers' Association and allocated by them to all the firms in the industry in this country. In the present state of the industry it would not be practicable to insist upon the exclusive use of British tubes.
Ministers And Directorships
45.
asked the Prime Minister whether he can now make a statement on the memoranda submitted to him by the hon. and learned Member for North Hammersmith (Mr. Pritt) and others; and what action is it proposed to take?
I hope shortly to be in a position to make a statement on this subject.
Will the Prime Minister bear in mind that there has been a very prolonged delay in coming to any decision on this matter, and can he give an assurance that a statement will be made before the Adjournment of the House?
"Shortly" means that.
World Economic Resources
46.
asked the Prime Minister whether he will now take the initiative in instituting an inquiry into the possibility of sharing the world's economic resources on a basis fair to all countries?
Any inquiry into such a question would have to extend to political as well as economic problems. In the opinion of His Majesty's Government the time is not propitious for the initiation of any general conference for the consideration of these matters.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the resolution passed by the International Conference of Chambers of Commerce recently in Copenhagen that they are of opinion that this preliminary is essential to the well-being of humanity?
They did not express any opinion as to whether the present time is propitious.
Will the right hon. Gentleman see that a better share of the economic resources of the world is given to old age pensioners?
Sittings Of Parliament
47 and 48.
asked the Prime Minister (1) whether, in view of the critical period which may be approaching, he will now state when it is proposed that Parliament shall reassemble after the summer Recess;
(2) what means are proposed to recall Parliament in the event of any international emergency during the coming Recess?I would ask my hon. Friend to be good enough to await the statement which I shall make on Business at the end of Questions to-day.
Does that answer also apply to Question No. 48?
Yes, Sir.
Education
Maintenance Allowances
49.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education whether he is aware that under the new grant regulations for elementary education maintenance allowances granted by local education authorities to necessitous children between 14 and 15 years of age will not now rank for Government grant, whereas under the previous regulations such expenditure did rank for Government grant; and will he take the necessary steps to see that all expenditure incurred by local education authorities on maintenance allowances for necessitous children of at least 14 years of age in attendance at elementary schools can be regarded as approved expenditure for the purposes of Government grant as in the case of secondary schools?
I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Hillsborough Division of Sheffield (Mr. Alexander) on 17th July, a copy of which I am sending him.
School Children, Lancashire (Health Survey)
51.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education when he expects the survey of the condition of health of the schoolchildren in Lancashire to be completed; and whether he will make the report available to Members of this House?
I assume that the hon. Member refers to the answer which I gave to his supplementary question on 20th July, The Board are not making a survey of the health of school children in Lancashire, but as part of their general survey of the adequacy of the provision of free meals and milk for necessitous undernourished children in all areas they have recently examined the position in the Lancashire county area and have addressed a letter to the local education authority. Extensive provision for this purpose is made by the authority and the arrangements appear to be generally satisfactory, but the Board have made certain suggestions for their improvement.
Size Of Classes
52.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education how many children in England and Wales are being educated in classes containing more than 40 children?
The number of children in classes in public elementary schools with more than 40 pupils on the register on 31st March, 1938, was 2,028,342.
Does not the Government think that it is of the utmost importance to get these children into smaller classes—that it is even more important than the question of old age pensions?
The prescribed limit for the size of classes is 40 for children over 11 and 50 for those under 11. Inasmuch as two-thirds of the children are under 11, the figure asked for in the question has no great significance. I would add that of all reforms I think a reduction in the size of classes is very important.
Beneficial Employment
53.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education what efforts are being made to secure uniformity throughout the country in the definition of beneficial employment, with special reference to a drastic limitation of hours of work between. 14 and 16 years of age?
The hours of work have to be considered in deciding whether to grant an employment certificate under the Education Act, 1936, and this aspect of the question has formed a leading feature in discussions between neighbouring local education authorities with a view to co-ordinating their action, as recommended in the Board's Circular 1457.
Local Authorities (Land Acquisition)
50.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education whether he will give a list of the areas of land purchased by the local education authority for school purposes in the West Riding of Yorkshire during the past 10 years, together with the price paid in each instance and the rateable value previous to acquisition?
To ascertain the particulars asked for by the hon. Member would involve a disproportionate amount of labour which my Department cannot undertake.
66.
asked the Minister of Health whether he will enumerate the schemes for sewerage and playing fields put forward by the West Riding Urban District Council during the past 10 years; the area of land affected; the price asked in each instance; and, when purchased, the rateable value previous to acquisition?
I regret that a list of the particulars asked for is not available and could not be obtained without a disproportionate amount of labour.
Is there a deliberate intention on the part of Government Departments to withhold information from the House, because this reply that I have now received is identical with one I got from the Board of Education earlier today? Is there a deliberate attempt to withhold the information?
In view of the very heavy burdens which this House has placed upon the Departments in connection with defence requirements, we look very carefully into demands for information which may place further work on the staffs.
Could not the information be obtained by asking the landlords to supply it?
75.
asked the Minister of Health what was the rateable value of the 7.77 acres of land which the Ching- ford Borough Council proposed to purchase for housing purposes, for which purchase a compulsory order was sanctioned by his Department after a public inquiry, and which compulsory order was afterwards withdrawn by the Chingford Borough Council; and what was the price which the owner demanded for this land?
The net rateable value of so much of the land as was not agricultural land and, therefore, derated was £93. I have no information as to the price demanded.
Housing
Rates (Weekly Wage-Earners)
55.
asked the Minister of Health whether, as local rates in working-class areas are paid almost entirely by weekly wage-earners of small income and in view of the serious effects of these payments upon working-class nutrition and health, he will consider the possibility of revision of grants or of the derating of working-class houses?
I could not accept the implications contained in the first part of the question. As regards the revision of grants, the Local Government Act, 1929, provides for review and recalculation at regular intervals. The last suggestion is, I think, impracticable.
In view of the general feeling that something must be done to relieve the pressure on working-class houses, will the right hon. Gentleman consider the desirability of bringing the question of the derating of working-class houses before the Cabinet, with a corresponding increase in the block grant?
Will the hon. Member define what he means by working-class houses? Nearly everybody works.
Rent Increases
68.
asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware of increased discontent among tenants of working-class houses and the existence or threat of rent-strikes; whether he is also aware that this action is receiving the support of tenants of the highest character and integrity; and whether, in view of this discontent, he proposes to take any action to prevent increases in rents and to secure equitable reductions?
I am aware that difficulties between landlords and tenants have arisen in a few parts of the country. The number of dwellings affected is, however, very small in comparison with the great number occupied by tenants, and the difficulties have arisen not from any general increase of rents but from a variety of causes, some of which can only be removed by local negotiations between the parties concerned. I do not consider that action on my part is desirable.
Does the right hon. Gentleman not think that the establishment of a rent court would go some way towards meeting these difficulties? Will he consider the advisability of legislation to assist tenants in the same way that we pass legislation to assist landlords?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a great deal of this discontent is caused by decontrol and the difference of rent between decontrolled and controlled houses, and will he send an inspector to these houses and try to get first-hand information?
All the Committees which have examined the question of rent restriction have reported against bringing the whole of the houses under control.
Cobham
76.
asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware of the serious lack of working-class houses in Cobham, within the area of the Esher Urban District Council; how many houses in Cobham have been condemned as unfit for human habitation; how many have been certified as overcrowded; why no steps have been taken by the Esher Council to provide the necessary houses; and what steps he proposes to take to compel this council to carry out their obligations in this matter?
I am informed that six houses in Cobham have been condemned by the Esher Urban District Council as unfit for human habitation and that four houses are at present overcrowded. I understand that the council are actively considering the question of acquiring a site on which to erect houses to meet all the needs of this part of their district.
Is the Minister not aware that the county council have declined to take compulsory action and that nobody in the area will sell land? Is he also aware that this is the kind of answer that has been given for the last few years, and nothing has been done?
I have recently approved tenders for 32 houses and six flats in other parts of the urban district, and the county council have already built 300 houses in that district.
Will the right hon. Gentleman make further inquiries in regard to the question I have put about Cobham?
Dudley
77.
asked the Minister of Health how many houses have been built by the county borough of Dudley; and how many have still to be provided to complete the slum-clearance scheme?
From 1919 up to 31st May last the Town Council of Dudley had built 4,822 houses of which 2,375 were allocated to the rehousing of persons displaced by slum clearance. I am informed that a further 1,500 houses may be necessary for that purpose.
Bilston And Coseley
78.
asked the Minister of Health how many houses have been built by the borough of Bilston and by the urban district council of Coseley; and about how many more are required to complete the clearance of the slums?
From 1919 up to 31st May last the Town Council of Bilston had built 2,255 houses of which 442 were allocated to the rehousing of persons displaced by slum clearance. I understand that about 1,300 further houses may be necessary for that purpose. The corresponding figures for Coseley are 1,394, 360 and 400 respectively.
Rural Workers
80.
asked the Minister of Health how many houses have been erected by local authorities in rural areas which are tenanted by agricultural labourers during each of the last eight years; and the average rents charged?
I am sending the hon. Member a statement showing the numbers of houses built by rural district councils in each of the last eight years. The total number is 67,965. I am unable to state the number occupied by agricultural labourers or the average rents charged to such persons.
Will the Minister try to ascertain exactly how many houses are occupied by agricultural labourers? If they are not so occupied the value of the provision is nil?
Public Assistance
56.
asked the Minister of Health whether he is now able to make a statement with reference to the case of Mr. Edgar Spruce, 26, Froysell Street, Willenhall, who, when recently applying to the Bilston Public Assistance Committee for extra assistance on account of his physical condition, supported by three doctors notes, was told by one of the members that as he had not been granted a council house after 15 applications he must be a bad character; and whether he will take steps to prevent treatment of this kind being extended to applicants in future?
I am informed that the remark referred to was made by a member of the guardians committee which dealt with the application for relief. As the hon. Member is aware, I have no control over the appointment or proceedings of guardians committees. The attention of the county council has been drawn to the matter in connection with the lion. Member's questions, and I do not: think I can usefully take any further action in the matter.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these insulting remarks are greatly resented, that there is no foundation for them, and does he not think that some sort of apology ought to be tendered to Mr. Spruce for these remarks?
I have no control over the meetings of the guardians committee, and, as I have said, the attention of the county council has been drawn to the matter.
71.
asked the Minister of Health the number of recipients of Unemployment Assistance Board allowances who have been supplied with spectacles and false teeth, respectively, by the public assistance authorities?
I regret that the information desired by the hon. Member is not available.
Cannot the right hon. Gentleman get the information? Surely, the county council have it. Does the right hon. Gentleman lack the willingness to inquire?
No, I do not lack willingness to inquire, but I must repeat that not only are the local authorities working under great strain but a special circular was sent round, with general approbation, asking them to concentrate on Defence matters.
Is it not a fact that all this information is tabulated by each local authority and could be obtained by merely sending a letter to them?
The local authorities continually say to me, with great indignation, that they find much difficulty in replying to the letters they already get.
Public Health
Midwives' Fees (Remission)
57.
asked the Minister of Health the names of the local supervising authorities which make provision for complete remission of midwives' fees where the expectant mother is unable to pay the scale fee; particulars of the circumstances in which such service is given; and the number of mothers in England and Wales who were attended free by midwives in 1938?
I regret that the information asked for is not available, but I have no reason to suppose that the authorities do not avail themselves of the power conferred upon them by the proviso to Section 3 (1) of the Midwives Act, 1936. to remit the scale fee, either in whole or in part, when this course is reasonable, having regard to the financial circumstances of the person liable to pay.
Did I understand the right hon. Gentleman to say that these facts are not available to his Department? If so, for what purpose are we paying his Department?
Maternity Hospital Accommodation, Wigan Area
67.
asked the Minister of Health whether, in view of the unsatisfactory position as regards hospital accommodation for maternity cases in the Wigan county area, he will use his influence to bring the joint consideration of this question now being given by the Lancashire County Council and other public bodies to an early and a satisfactory termination?
Yes, Sir. I shall certainly endeavour to do so.
Analgesics (Administration, Mid Wives)
79.
asked the Minister of Health what are the analgesic preparations used by State-registered midwives and/or certificated nurses on their own responsibility in cases of childbirth?
81.
asked the Minister of Health whether his attention has been drawn to the resolution passed by the British Medical Association deprecating the use of an analgesic by midwives; and whether, with a view to countering any ill-effects of this resolution, he will make a statement to reassure the public as to the complete safety of the administration of gas by midwives?
With permission I will take this opportunity of stating the position with regard to the administration of analgesics by certified midwives. In January, 1936, following a careful investigation, the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists reported that the administration of nitrous oxide and air by Dr. Minnitt's apparatus was safe for use by midwives under specified conditions. The Central Midwives Board in October, 1936, accordingly passed a resolution recognising as treatment within the province of a midwife the administration of gas and air by Minnitt's or similar apparatus for the purpose of producing analgesia during labour, subject to the following conditions, which are those specified by the college: (1) that she has, either before or after enrolment, received at an institution approved by the board for the purpose, special instruction in the essentials of obstetric analgesia, and has satisfied the institution that she is thoroughly proficient in the use of the apparatus; (2) that the patient has within one month before her confinement been examined by a registered medical practi- tioner who has handed to the midwife a certificate in writing that the patient is in a fit condition for gas and air administration; and (3) that one other person, being a State certified midwife, or a State registered nurse, or a senior medical student, or a pupil-midwife, is present at the time of administration in addition to the midwife in charge of the case. The ruling to the Central Midwives Board is the ruling of the statutory authority responsible and it will be seen that it allows the administration of analgesics by midwives in circumstances regarded as safe by the Royal College of Obstericians and Gynaecologists. Under such circumstance's I think the public may be completely re-assured as to the safety of the administration of gas by midwives.
Will the right hon. Gentleman undertake that this merciful practice of allowing midwives to administer an analgesic will not be interfered with by the selfish attitude of a certain portion of the medical profession who expressed their views the other day?
It cannot be interfered with; that is the ruling of the Central Midwives Board which is the statutory authority.
May I ask whether any action will lie against a midwife who, without this authority, administers an analgesic, notwithstanding the fact that a doctor might be some 20 miles away?
A certified midwife can administer an analgesic under the conditions which I have stated, and which, I think, can be complied with by midwives even in distant parts of the country.
Even to ignoring the presence of a doctor? Sometimes they cannot get another person.
It is very desirable that some other person beside the midwife should be there.
Old Age Pensioners (Public Assistance)
58.
asked the Minister of Health the number of persons in receipt of old age pensions who were also receiving Poor Law relief in January, 1939; whether this shows an increase over the figures of January, 1938; and, if so, what is the percentage increase?
On 1st January, 1939, there were 250,291 old age pensioners in England and Wales who were in receipt of poor relief, representing an increase of 8.5 per cent, on the corresponding number on 1st January, 1938. The proportion of old age pensioners in receipt of poor relief to the total number of old age pensioners has accordingly also risen slightly, from 10.04 on 1st January, 1938, to 10.5 on 1st January, 1939.
Can the right hon. Gentleman oblige me by giving a copy to the Prime Minister, so that it will be available for him and will give him an opportunity of doing something for the old age pensioners?
I have always found that the Prime Minister listens very carefully at Question Time.
Burning Pit-Heaps
59.
asked the Minister of Health the number of burning refuse heaps that are in county Durham; the number where the nuisance has been abated; and the number where treatment is now taking place?
Sixteen pit heaps in Durham are still definitely on fire, but remedial action has been or is being taken with regard to eight of them. Seven pit heaps have been extinguished and the present condition of a further 21 is such that, although they cannot yet be classified as definitely extinguished, they are well in hand.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the treatment suggested by the inspectors is proving satisfactory?
I think it is, but because it has not been fully tested out I did not classify the 21 as definitely extinguished.
Public Kitchens
74.
asked the Minister of Health whether, in view of the great benefit to health, and the popularity which has attended the establishment of milk bars in some of the principal positions in many of the cities of Great Britain, he will consider seeking powers to enable him to set up similar establishments as public kitchens where the more nutritious kinds of food can be supplied to the public at small cost?
I am aware of the great success which has attended the establishment of milk bars, but I see no sufficient reason for my seeking powers of the kind referred to.
Does the right hon. Gentleman confer with the medical officers?
Explosions, London And Liverpool
(by Private Notice) asked the Prime Minister whether he can make a statement concerning the explosions which took place at King's Cross and Victoria Stations, London, and in Liverpool yesterday?
At 1.50 p.m. yesterday a serious explosion occurred at King's Cross Railway Station in the Left Luggage Office situated on the south side of the main station approach. The explosion completely wrecked the front of the Left Luggage Office, the flooring was damaged, the whole of the windows were blown out and numerous suitcases, bags, etc., were destroyed or damaged. The seat of the explosion was under the counter and it was presumably caused by an explosive substance in a suitcase from, which smoke had been seen escaping just previously. I regret to say that one of the persons injured as a result of the explosion died yesterday afternoon. Sixteen other people, of whom four were railway employés, were injured and five of these persons were detained at hospital.
At 9.36 p.m. an explosion which is believed to have been caused by a bomb deposited in a case occurred in the Central Section Cloakroom at Victoria Station. Five persons were injured, of whom two were detained in hospital, and considerable damage was done to the cloakroom and baggage deposited in it, and to the station clock. The explosion at Liverpool occurred at 12.35 this morning at the Post Office, Mount Pleasant. The front of the Post Office has been blown out, but I understand that no persons were injured. Further, an incendiary bomb was placed in a street pillar box about 200 yards away, but as a result of prompt action by the police only one letter was damaged. I understand also that a bomb explosion has caused extensive damage to a wooden bridge over the Leeds—Liverpool Canal at Maghull, about four miles from the Liverpool boundary. I have not yet received full reports of these explosions. The House will, I am sure, join with me in expressing the deepest sympathy with those who have suffered in these and other outrages and with their families, and hon. Members may be sure that no effort will be spared to bring to justice those who are guilty of these criminal and cowardly attacks on innocent men and women. I am informed that the Prevention of Violence (Temporary Provisions) Bill will pass through all its stages in another place to-morrow. In view of the evident importance of passing the Bill into law at the earliest possible moment I propose to ask the House to agree to the suspension of the Four o'clock Rule to-morrow, as a precautionary measure, so that there may be time for the consideration of any Lords Amendments. The Bill will then be ready to receive the Royal Assent.In view of the fact that a great many people were injured, may I ask whether there are ways and means of their being given support of any kind by the Government?
Will the right hon. Gentleman now consider the application of flogging in the case of such dastardly outrages?
Have any special steps been taken to afford protection to the railway employés who are bearing the brunt of these outrages, and would not a more stringent examination of packages left in cloakrooms lead to the detection of the criminals, as well as afford a further preventive?
I can only say that the police are doing everything they can possibly do for the protection of railway employés and the general public.
Will the Prime Minister give some answer to the question as to whether the Government will consider the matter of compensation?
I could not do that without notice.
May I ask whether an instruction might be given by the Government to all railway officials to demand the opening of any baggage or parcels that are deposited in the presence of the persons depositing them?
I understand that my right hon. Friend has already drawn the attention of the railway companies to the importance of searching baggage that is left.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of placing a militiaman at the entrance of the chief luggage departments, and one who is a good judge of faces?
Business Of The House
May I ask the Prime Minister to state the Business for to-day and for next week?
The Business today will be: Supply (14th Allotted Day); Committee: Motion on Old Age Pensions to be discussed in place of the Treasury-Vote. We also desire to obtain the Report stage of the Navy Supplementary Estimate, 1939, Vote A, and the remaining stages of the Isle of Man (Customs) Bill.
The business for next week will be:
Monday—Supply: Committee (15th Allotted Day); a debate will take place on Foreign Affairs. Ways and Means: Committee.
Tuesday—Supply: Report (16th Allotted Day); debate on Civil Defence. Ways and Means: Report.
Wednesday—Second Reading of the Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill; Debate on Education.
Thursday—Remaining stages of the Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill; Debate on Unemployment.
Friday—Adjournment for the Summer Recess.
At Ten o'clock on Monday and on Tuesday the Committee and Report stages, respectively, of all outstanding Supply Votes will be put from the Chair.
During the week any outstanding Business will be dealt with, including Lords Amendments to the Cotton Industry (Reorganisation) Bill and to other Bills which have already passed this House, and Motion to approve the proposed Barley Scheme for 1939.
I will announce next week the date of reassembly in the autumn.
It is proposed to take the Motion for the Summer Adjournment at the beginning of Business on Wednesday. The usual powers will be sought empowering Mr. Speaker, on representations being made by the Government, to call the House together at an earlier date if such a course should be necessary in the public interest.
Has the Prime Minister given consideration to a proposal which has been made that there should be regular meetings of the House of Commons and that we should not disperse for a considerable period, in view of the anxiety which there is about the international situation?
I have seen an allusion to such a proposal in the Press, although it has not been formally made to me; but on consideration, it does not seem to me that it would be an advisable course to pursue. It is one that would be likely to keep the whole country in a state of tension.
May I put this point to the right hon. Gentleman? Would it not be more likely to give a feeling of satisfaction to the people of this country to know that the watchdogs of the British public— [Interruption.] Is it not the case that it would be more likely to strengthen public opinion if it were known that the House would meet from time to time rather than that it should disperse for, probably, two months?
That is, no doubt, a matter of opinion, but my opinion is that the powers which the Government already possess would be sufficient.
In view of the possibility of grave events abroad, surely it is undesirable that the House should separate for any very prolonged period, and if the Prime Minister is unable to accept the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) that the House should meet at regular intervals, will he not agree, at any rate, that it would be undesirable that the House should adjourn for several weeks and that it should not adjourn for more than a fortnight or three weeks at the most?
I do not think that is a very useful suggestion. We have no reason to suppose that if grave events should supervene, they would supervene in a fortnight or three weeks or at any particular time. I think the only reasonable and sensible way is for the Government, which have the responsibility, to watch the course of events, and the House may depend upon it that we should exercise our powers with a due sense of our responsibility.
Is it not the case that the House reassembled last September earlier than was expected, that we were then faced with a fait accompli, and that it was much too late for the House to have any influence on the negotiations?
We did not go to war.
I know that I cannot argue this question, but may I put this point to the right hon. Gentleman? If he is indisposed now to give an undertaking that there shall be an early meeting of the House after it rises next week, and if he will not agree to regular meetings of the House or meetings at stated intervals which might be arranged, is he prepared to give an undertaking that, in the absence of a meeting of the House, there shall be no departure from announced public policy without the House being brought together? That seems to me to be a reasonable proposal to make.
I do not want to argue the question either with the right hon. Gentleman. He has put a question to me which I presume is an extempore question, and I must give an extempore answer. I do not want to tie myself down to the precise words of a pledge, but, broadly speaking, certainly if the Government contemplated some important departure in their foreign policy—I imagine it is foreign policy which the right hon. Gentleman has in mind—I think that would be a case for calling the House together.
Does not my right hon. Friend consider that if, during the early days of August, the mobilisation of the German Army is steadily proceeding, it would appear rather incongruous to announce that Parliament has adjourned until 25th October?
That is a hypothetical question.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman feel that it would be strongly advisable that towards the end of August the House should automatically reassemble rather than that the Prime Minister should have to give notice to the world of the grave view which he takes of the situation by asking Mr. Speaker to recall the House, and, while it is true that none of us would wish offhand to derogate from the great responsibility which falls upon the Prime Minister himself in these matters, surely every Member of the House, whether he be on that side or on this, has a responsibility to thousands of constituents from which he cannot cover himself by throwing the responsibility entirely upon the Prime Minister?
Would it not be playing into the hands of the German propaganda mongers to have the House of Commons sitting at the end of August, waiting for what might turn up or be said in Germany?
As I had two questions on this matter, may I now put one supplementary question? As the times cannot be called normal, any more normal than they were 12 months ago, would my right hon. Friend devise some means of ascertaining their wishes in this matter of the general body of Parliamentary representatives, including back-benchers, periodically from time to time during the Recess?
There will be an opportunity on the Motion to discuss that.
Is it not a fact that when this procedure was adopted some years ago Mr. Speaker sent out telegrams to Members? What official summons are Members to have if Parliament reassembles? There are Members who do not belong to parties and who do not receive Whips. Are they not entitled to an intimation of the reassembly of Parliament?
We have a Press in this country as well as a broadcasting system.
Resolved,
" That this day, notwithstanding anything in Standing Order No. 14, Business other than Business of Supply may be taken before Eleven of the Clock; and that the Proceedings on the Report of Supply of 26th July may be taken after Eleven of the Clock, and that the Proceedings on Government Business be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)." — [[he Prime Minister.]
Bills Reported
Ministry Of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Bethesda) Bill Lords
Reported, without Amendment, from the Committee on Unopposed Bills; to be read the Third time To-morrow.
Ministry Of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Bradford) Bill Lords
Reported, without Amendment, from the Committee on Unopposed Bills; to be read the Third time To-morrow.
London County Council (Improvements) Bill Lords
Reported, with Amendments, from the Committee on Unopposed Bills (with Report on the Bill).
Bill, as amended, and Report to lie upon the Table; Report to be printed.
Metropolitan Water Board Bill Lords
Reported, with Amendments, from the Committee on Unopposed Bills (with Report on the Bill).
Bill, as amended, and Report to lie upon the Table; Report to be printed.
Folkestone Water Bill Lords
Reported, with Amendments, from the Committee on Unopposed Bills (with Report on the Bill).
Bill, as amended, and Report to lie upon the Table; Report to be printed.
Message From The Lords
That they have agreed to, —
Finance Bill,
Overseas Trade Guarantees Bill, without Amendment.
Cotton Industry (Reorganisation) Bill,
Sheffield Corporation Bill, with Amendments.
Cotton Industry (Reorganisation) Bill
Lords Amendments to be considered upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 216.]
Orders Of The Day
Supply
[14TH ALLOTTED DAY.]
Considered in Committee.
[Sir DENNIS HERBERT in the Chair.]
Civil Estimates, 1939
Class I
Treasury And Subordinate Departments
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a sum, not exceeding £3276,614, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1940, for the salaries and other expenses in the Department of His Majesty's Treasury and Subordinate Departments, the salary of a Minister for Co-ordination of Defence, and the additional salary of the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster as a member of the Cabinet."—[Note.—£140,000 has been voted on account.]
Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again," put, and agreed to.—[ Captain Margesson.]
Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.
Old Age Pensions
4.5 p.m.
I beg to move,
I move this Motion in order to draw attention to a matter which is exercising the mind of Members on all sides of this House. Whilst the minds of people today are weighted down with anxiety because of the unsettlement in the international situation, that anxiety has not driven into the background the ever-pressing problems affecting the daily lives of millions. The problem of meeting the rent and the butcher's bills pushes into the background, quite naturally, the wider issues of war and peace. War to them is remote and its outbreak problematical, but day-to-day expenditure on the bare necessities of life is a constantly worrying problem to a large number of our people living in poverty or living on the verge of poverty. All our war preparations are presumably intended for the defence of liberty and democracy, but liberty is an abstract thing to those who are slaves of grinding poverty, and if we are prepared to defend such liberties as we have we should be prepared to bring liberty to those who, through dire poverty, are denied it. Democracy is a fine principle, and such democratic institutions and traditions as we possess are precious to us, but democracy through which liberty is made possible is a hollow pretence to those who are the victims of economic misfortune and live in penury. The point I want to make is this: the war against poverty at home is one of the most powerful agencies for developing that spirit and strength of our people on which we must in the last resort depend to withstand menaces from abroad. My party has been in the forefront of the agitation for improved pensions because it believes that the sense of security and the maintenance of a reasonable standard of life are the very foundations of national well-being. The need for pensions has now been recognised by all political parties. There is on the Statute Book legislation which has emanated from all the political parties in this House. Times have changed since 1912, when someone whom I did not know, a certain Mr. Councillor Neville Chamberlain, speaking at Harborne, referred to the original Old Age Pension Act as "radically rotten in principle." He was a councillor whom I did not know. Times have changed since those days, and quite rightly. There is a growing recognition, not merely amongst my hon. Friends here, but amongst hon. Members opposite, that there should be a good deal more generous treatment of the aged people of our land. There can be no doubt of the widespread demand for better pensions from the aged people, most of whom have a very thin time. But the demand comes not only from them; it comes from the younger generation, who often enough find their lives crippled by calls made upon them for the partial maintenance of aged relatives. There is no need for me to attempt to harrow the feelings of hon. Members with accounts of the struggles of old age pensioners subsisting on the small pensions payable to-day after a lifetime of service. Those Members of the House who read the "Daily Herald" will see that in recent weeks a good deal of information has been gathered together about Mr. and Mrs. Bob Upcraft. There are in the country thousands and hundreds of thousands of them who are trying, without any other resources, to eke out a decent livelihood on £1 a week. Since the announcement was made of this Debate I have been deluged with letters, not in scores, but in hundreds, so many that I regret to say I have not read them all. No doubt other hon. Members have received letters too, on the opposite side of the House as well as on this side, pointing to hard cases of a kind which would bring the tears to the eyes of any honest person. I defy any hon. Member opposite to say here to-day that he could do any better in the circumstances described. I defy any Members to say that these people are being fairly treated. I could have brought exhibits here, an enormous pile of them, such as I have seen, not being letters of appeal, but letters showing how people are trying to manage on their 1os. a week if they are single men or women, or how they are trying to manage on £1 a week if they are a married couple. There is a degree of heroism on the part of these people who live on this meagre sum—a degree of heroism which merits a good deal better reward. I shall quote one case which was recorded in the Press of a man who was bound over on an arson charge. He had 1os. a week, was too proud to ask for help, had been for two months trying to exist on 1od. per week. I am glad to think that the magistrate took a lenient view of the case. Sir John Orr only yesterday said that old people needed 7s. per head per week as a minimum for food alone. Assuming no other resources, that leaves 3s., 4s., or 5s. a week to meet all the other needs of life—clothing, house accommodation, light, repairs and fuel. It is just impossible to meet all those requirements out of the difference between the 7s. and the 10s. What is happening is this, and it is not to our national credit: People in order to pay their way, in order to buy soap to keep themselves clean, do not spend the 7s. per head per week on food. That, I say, is a real national tragedy. The Prime Minister in a letter which will live long in the memories of many people takes comfort in the fact that only 10 per cent, of the pensioners seek public assistance. That in itself is a sad admission of the inadequacy of our pensions scheme. It would be so if only 10 per cent, had to do it. But even if this were a cause for smug self-satisfaction, which I emphatically deny, it does not disclose the whole truth. It does not disclose the real volume or depth of the tragedy. It ignores the further number —and these people still exist—who are too proud to ask for help and who starve in silence. There are no figures relating to them. It takes no account of the considerable number—in some areas amounting to half the total number of old age pensioners—who receive help from relatives, which the relatives themselves often enough cannot afford. This is euphemistically called by the Prime Minister in his letter "managing without recourse to the rates," but it represents a great tragedy for those people, not merely for the aged who have their pensions eked out by another shilling or two, but for those who make sacrifices in order to give them that extra shilling or two. There is, because of this situation, a very heavy burden resting upon local authorities. It is a burden from which they cannot escape. If hon. Members examine two written answers which were published in the Official Report on 6th April last, they will see there in figures the story of the burden which is falling on the local authorities. They will see that the heaviest burdens are being placed on the poorest authorities. In England and Wales, while there are rates due to eking out old age pensions from public assistance, amounting in Durham to over 2s. in the £ and to considerable sums in other districts, there are also places like Surrey which escape with an additional rate of less than one penny. The rich boroughs are not being called upon to bear these additional burdens, but where poverty is most to be found, where poverty is, one may say, the plight of the majority in the area, then a heavy burden falls upon that area. The same is true in Scotland. We find that in Scotland the estimated annual cost, based on an inquiry made on nth March last, is nearly £800,000 and an average addition to the rates of local authorities of 51½d. in the £ is involved. In England and Wales, on the same basis of calculation, the estimated annual cost of out-relief, in money and kind, to old age pensioners and their dependants, falling to be met out of rates and block grants, is almost £5,000,000 a year, involving an average rate over the country of just over 4d. That is a situation to which the local authorities rightly take exception. There have been repeated appeals to the Government by all kinds of representative bodies. To-day, I understand, the Minister of Health received a deputation from the Association of Municipal Corporations, the County Councils Association and the London County Council on this matter. They represented the views of every local authority in the country, including even the rich ones, which are often the greediest, and certainly including those who are now finding this burden more than they can bear. The Government attitude on this matter has been, to say the least of it, somewhat doubtful. We had a Debate on 23rd November last when an Amendment was moved, in an attempt to wriggle out of the situation. The Amendment stated that this House would welcome a further extension of pensions"That this House regrets the refusal of His Majesty's Government to provide the necessary ways and means for the improvement and extension of old age pensions."
That, I think, put the Tory view honestly and straightforwardly and I do not complain about it. Our Motion on that occasion was defeated, not by a very large majority, and the Amendment to which I have referred was carried— again not by a very large majority. That view, apparently, up to nth July, at any rate, was the view of His Majesty's Government. The Prime Minister in a letter to the hon. Member for East Birkenhead (Mr. White) tried to escape from the situation by falling back on the old dodge of pointing out what the present scheme would cost 40 years from now; that is a very old and well-tried method of frightening timorous Ministers from embarking on any great schemes of social reform. It is the method of pointing out that an enormous accumulating debt would be incurred if certain plans of social reform were undertaken. We are told that in 40 years' time, without any increase in the existing rate of pensions, the scheme will be costing £147,000,000 of which the Exchequer's share will be £130,000,000. I do not think that argument helps the right hon. Gentleman. I do not think it helps him either, to base his case on the heavy burden which is involved in rearmament. I admit that heavy burden. I pointed out in this House some months ago that, reluctant though we were to undertake this burden of rearmament, we were prepared to accept it, but I said that we on these benches would never sacrifice the normal progress of the social services. By that we still stand. To excuse oneself from improving the old age pension on the ground of the enormous burden of rearmament, is equivalent to asking the aged, by the continuance of their sacrifices, to pay for armaments, the victory of which they will never enjoy. That, I submit, is unfair. When in 1931 the Labour Government had an accumulated debt of £115,000,000 on the Unemployment Fund—a debt for which I never apologised it was regarded by Conservatives, and by -Liberals, as a national scandal—as the beginning of national ruin. Since those days, the House of Commons has taken a more elastic view of the nation's resources. Some people now, in relation to defence, are thinking in astronomical figures which baffle me completely. Compared with the enormous figures which the nation is prepared to face in the interest of defence, what we are asking for now—a measure which would bring new hope and comfort and happiness to millions of people—would amount to a relatively small sum. The right hon. Gentleman on more than one occasion has twitted me with a statement which I made, and which I think I have repeated as often as he has gibed at me about it. I said that the nation can afford anything it really wants, if it wants it sufficiently. If the nation wanted to provide on the scale we suggest for the old age pensioners, if it cared for them as much as it cared for this rearmament programme, the money would be found. We are told not only that we have not the resources because of rearmament: we are told that an enormous burden would be cast upon industry. Every time any measure of social progress comes before this House, whether it is a proposal for a reduction of the hours of labour under a Factories Act, or whatever it may be, if it involves any industry in any cost whatever, we are told that it means national ruin. For 100 years and more every proposal which involved expenditure of money, or deprived employers of profits, was regarded by certain people as leading inevitably to national ruin. But recent years have shown that the nation has a broad enough back to bear burdens for which it would not have dreamt of taking responsibility, years ago. I have already referred to the large burden now borne by the local authority —something approaching £6,000,000 a year. That cost could be better borne by the State, the employers and the workers, than by the bulk of our local authorities. I would say that it would be in the national interest if the whole of that burden of £6,000,000 were taken away from the local authorities, even if the whole of it fell upon the State. Although I know the cost of this proposal would be large there is another offset to it, besides the relief to the local authorities. I believe it is in the national interest to increase the purchasing power of the masses of the people, who will utilise their new resources for buying staple commodities, and not luxuries. It is far better from the national point of view, and from the point of view of real economic prosperity, that we should be manufacturing more boots and shoes, and clothes and building more houses, than that we should be manufacturing luxury motor-cars and other luxury commodities of one kind and another. The question that we are discussing today is whether the Government are prepared to face this grave problem, notwithstanding their other commitments. The demand is powerful, as Members of this House know. The consciences of Members on that side of the House have recently been pricked and pricked. I do not say they are having regard to the approach of a general election. I prefer to put it on moral grounds, that their consciences have been affected by the human appeals which have reached them. I am hoping, because I gather that the last reply which the Prime Minister sent to a Member of this House was not couched in such hard terms as it was in the case of the letter to the hon. Member for East Birkenhead, that the Government mean to do something. It has been suggested that there should be an inquiry. That seems to me to be merely a time-saving and a face-saving device to avoid the issue. I say that on the authority of of the Prime Minister himself. He has said that the facts are all known. To save him the trouble of an inquiry, let me say that my party had an inquiry lasting for three years. We made our own inquiry, and our party are so generous that we have presented a copy of it to every Member of this House, though I should be very glad to collect the twopences from hon. Members. There was an inquiry of a most protracted and meticulous kind, and there is a scheme which I believe can stand up to any kind of expert criticism. I am prepared, without any further ado or delay, to make a present of the scheme to the right hon. Gentleman. The outlines of that scheme, I assume, will slowly percolate into the minds of hon. Members opposite. Our proposal is that the normal old age pension should be 20s. per week for one person. That is not an extravagant sum. You have no right to consider whether odds and ends of people have a little bit extra. You have no right to assume that every man and woman and every family has been able to build up small resources additional to that. You must, therefore, to do this job properly, get a basic figure which seems to be reasonable, and we suggest £1 per week for one person and 35s. for a married couple. But we do appreciate that there are ageing workers, men and women, single men or widowers and widows or spinsters, who are finding it extremely difficult at 65 to hang on to their jobs. They do it, not because they want to, but because they cannot face the prospect of living on 10s. a week; and there are thousands and thousands of jobs which might be occupied by men in the prime of life, bringing up their children at home, who might be put into employment if older people could be given a pension of a reasonable amount. We propose that this should be regarded as a retirement pension, payable on the understanding that these people leave wage-earning employment. But there are people below that age, men and women, who have been out of work for years, for whom there is not the remotest prospect of employment, people also who are precariously keeping a foothold on the labour market, who know that once they go out, never will they get back. There are scores of thousands of cases of that kind. Therefore, we propose that where people are 60 or over, where they are out of work, where the Minister of Labour can honestly say that there is little prospect of their ever getting back, the retirement pension ought to be available to them. We have a number of other ancillary proposals, with which I will not deal this afternoon, but we regard the £1 per week for one person and the 35s. per week for a married couple as the minimum that is necessary to obviate the need for these people having to go cap in hand to the Poor Law or having, very reluctantly, to accept help which they know that those who give it can ill afford. Every one of our proposals, I believe, is justifiable, and nothing less than these could we regard as being even moderately adequate. The proposal for an inquiry is an admission that there is something that is not right, unless it is a dodge. A proposal to increase the amount of pension by half-a-crown per week is not merely an insult to those who would receive it, but it is an indication by the Government that they regard the present scale as inadequate. We have, until recent years— we did it first in unemployment insurance accepted— the principle that unemployment benefit could not be regarded as adequate maintenance. We have had to alter our ideas in that respect, and we arc going to have to alter our ideas with regard to the scale of old age pensions. The Government have so far flatly rejected any proposal to deal with the problem. The Prime Minister has used every argument he could to dash the hopes of those who desire to see improvements made. There are whispers that the Government mean to make some measure of retribution. Well, I speak this afternoon as the spearhead of a large and growing movement in this country which is determined that something shall be done. It is on their behalf that I present their demands, and I await the Government's response." as and when practicable on a sound financial basis; but is of opinion that at a time when the prime necessity of strengthening the country's defences is placing a severe strain on the national finances, such extension would, besides placing a heavy direct burden both on industry and those employed in industry, involve such additional demands on the national Exchequer as would imperil the financial stability upon which depends the well-being of industry and employment and the maintenance of all the existing social services."
On a point of Order. May I ask whether the Amendment in the name of myself and other hon. Members will be called this afternoon—In line 1, leave out from "House," to the end, and add:
"while recognising the serious hardships now being suffered by certain classes of old age pensioners, believes that the problem of security for old age can best be solved by a comprehensive system of national retirement pensions, embracing and supplementing the many voluntary superannuation schemes now in being."
I did not propose to call either of the Amendments on the Paper.
4.39 p.m.
The Motion before the House may, I suppose, be considered as the climax in this House of an agitation which has for some time past been carried oft with ever increasing vehemence in the country. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) said he would not accuse hon. Members on this side of the House who were sympathetic on the subject of this Motion of any consideration of a possible General Election. I say exactly the same thing about hon. Members opposite. But I am bound to say, in fairness to the right hon. Gentleman, that in the speech to which we have just listened he carefully abstained from some of the more injurious reflections upon Members who support the Government which have been characteristic, I am afraid, of those heated contests which sometimes take place over by-elections. The fact is that this subject, the condition of old people, is one which does make a very strong appeal to the natural sympathies of everybody, wherever they sit. I remember very vividly the efforts that were made, so long ago as 1891, by my father to arouse the country to a sense of the hardships that were then the common lot of many old people. The pictures that he drew then of men who had led a blameless life, who had worked hard for earnings which left them no possibility of putting aside provision for their old age, and who in the end were condemned to the workhouse— those pictures were very distressing. They aroused the conscience of the whole country, and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) said no more than the truth when he declared that Joseph Chamberlain had done more than any other man to popularise the idea of an old age pension scheme.
My forebear never had an opportunity of putting his ideas into practice, but it was a great satisfaction to me that in 1925 it was my good fortune to pilot through this House the Widows', Orphans' and Old Age Contributory Pensions Bill. The right hon. Gentleman recalled a remark made by myself in earlier days, which I confess I had quite forgotten, but which I do not repudiate, because, of course, I was contrasting the principle of contributory pensions with that of non-contributory pensions, which was the principle underlying the original Act of Mr. Asquith's. I am glad to think that I converted the party opposite to my way of thinking. The right hon. Gentleman has himself claimed that they put on the Statute Book a further addition to the Contributory Pensions Act. Since then the present Government have filled a gap in the original contributory pensions scheme by the voluntary pensions scheme, under which people of limited means who were outside the scope of the original Act were able to partake of its benefits upon a new plan. Perhaps I might, just to conclude this category, mention that in 1938 we passed the Blind Persons Act, which reduced the age at which pensions were payable to blind people to 40 years. I speak of these things and of Acts that have been passed by the Government and by Conservative Governments before as evidence of the fact that any suggestions that the supporters of the Government, or myself in particular, are callous or indifferent about the condition of aged people are merely libellous. I feel that I can claim with justice that I have done more to convert sympathy into practical measures for the benefit of old people than a great many of those who criticise me and accuse me of caring nothing about them. If the Government have felt compelled to take up a cautious attitude in the face of the claims which have been made upon them, often of a fantastic and extravagant character, it is not because they are indifferent to the subject, it is not because they are ignorant of the conditions in the homes of the people, it is not because they think that 10s. a week is enough for an old person to live upon—we have never claimed that. It is not for any of those reasons that we have not responded to those claims, but simply and solely because we, who are carrying the responsibility of Government, realise what some of our critics do not yet seem fully to have realised, namely, that we are still in the middle of a Defence programme which it is impossible for us to abandon, or even to postpone, which is going to put upon the finances of this country in the future an altogether unexampled strain. I shall have something more to say about that presently, but first I should like to recall to the House something of what we have been doing in recent years to improve our social services in general and pensions in particular. When the original Pensions Act was passed in 1908 the estimated annual cost to the Exchequer was £8,750,000. In 1925, that is, before the Contributory Pensions Act was passed, that £8,750,000 had become £28,000,000. In 1930, that is, after the Act was passed, it had risen to £46,000,000, and the Estimates for the current year show a charge for these pensions of over £69,000,000. Of course, that is not the end of the story. These increases in the cost of pensions are not due merely to alterations in the Acts bringing in more people or raising the rates, but are due to other causes. They are partly due to the fact that two generations ago there was a great increase in the number of births, consequently bringing into the field in which pensions are now payable a very largely increased number of people. They are also due to the increased expectation of life, which in itself is a result of and a justification of the increased expenditure upon the public health services. The right hon. Gentleman, by way of disarming any argument that I might rest upon it, repeated to the House what is, of course, well known, that according to actuarial calculations the cost of our present pension system, for which we are providing £69,000,000 this year, will in the course of 40 years rise to £115,000,000. He said that we, at any rate, need not trouble about that, that 40 years is a long time ahead, and that many of us will not live to see it. I have got children.So have I.
The hon. Member has children, too. They may live to see it. Are we to take no thought for our children? I am addressing a very serious argument to the House. I want the House to pay attention to these considerations for one minute. What is going to be the result of this increased expectation of life, coupled with the diminution in the birth rate, which is going on at the same time? In 1931 the number of persons of 65 years and over was, in proportion to the number between 15 and 65 years of age—the earning ages—as 11 to 100. In 1955 that will have risen to 16 to 100, and by 1975 to 21 to 100. Again, any hon. or right hon. Member may say that that is a long way off, and we shall not know anything about it. Surely we ought, if we have a proper sense of our responsibilities, to consider what is going to be the effect upon the next generation of anything that we may be doing to-day. I would put this general point to the House: The implication of the figures I have given is that as time goes on there will be an increasing proportion of the population who will be eligible for pensions and to whom pensions will have to be paid, and there will be a decreasing proportion of the population who will be earning wages and therefore able to make contributions to pay for the pensions.
There is the increase in national wealth.
I quite agree. I am not saying this is the only consideration, but it is a consideration which must not be left out of account. Pensions, increasing in cost, are, of course, not the only one of our social services which have been making an ever-growing demand upon the resources of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Taking the last 15 years—from 1925 to the present day—I find that the cost to the Exchequer of housing has grown from £9,000,000 to £18,500,000 per annum; education from £45,500,000 to £58,000,000; unemployment insurance and assistance from £13,750,000 to £71,500,000. The total cost to the Exchequer of old age pensions, contributory pensions, housing, health insurance, unemployment insurance and assistance, education and physical training and recreation has risen in those 15 years from £102,800,000 to over £224,000,000; and that, of course, takes no account of the block grant, in which there is a very considerable element of social service. When you consider that during this period we have also had to find interest on our War Debt, which at the highest reached £300,000,000 in a year, and at the lowest is some £224,000,000, it must be apparent that we have been making very heavy demands upon the resources of the country.
The right hon. Gentleman has offered to make us a present of a scheme which the Labour party have evolved. As an instalment of that present they have sent us this attractive pamphlet, complete with a picture of a teddy bear on the outside, and although it costs 2d. to themselves they have given it to us for nothing. That is the way in which they deal with these financial matters. In view of the offer which the right hon. Gentleman has made I think I ought to devote a few minutes to an examination of the scheme before we accept it without qualification. The right hon. Gentleman said that the principal feature of the scheme is that there shall be a pension of £1 a week for a single person, and 35s. a week for a married couple, provided they retire from gainful occupation. I must say that demand is a most objectionable feature. The right hon. Gentleman spoke as if all we had to consider was the case of people —he said they were a very numerous class —who are anxious to get away from work but cannot afford the difference between their wage and the 10s. a week which is all they could get under the present system. If only that sum could be increased to 20s. they would be thankful to be released from their labours. Is that the only kind of case you have to consider? An hon. Member says there are a great many such cases. I am not saying that there are not a great many, but it seems to me to be utterly contrary to the principles of insurance that you should say to a man who has paid his contribution for pension perhaps ever since he was 16 that when he arrives at the time when he has a right to draw the pension for which he has paid he is to be deprived of it if he continues to follow his occupation for which he may be perfectly competent and in following which he may be the cause of finding employment for others. Everybody knows that there is at the present time a shortage of skilled labour in a number of trades. If those who happen to be over 65 who have the skill we require were to be taken away because otherwise they would forfeit their pension I say that would not be in the national interest, but would be directly contrary to it.You were responsible for the change in 1928 which stopped men at 65 from drawing unemployment benefit.
If the hon. Member is fortunate enough to catch Mr. Speaker's eye he can repeat that as often as he likes. It does not seem to me that that particular proposal is fair or just to the men who are to be called upon to pay their contribution, and it seems to me to be directly against the interests of the country. This is only what I might call a minor feature of the scheme, and I am not wishing to spend any further time upon it. But in the account which the right hon. Gentleman gave us of it he followed a practice which, I think, has been followed largely in the country, too. He told us all about the benefits of the scheme but nothing whatever about the cost of it and how that cost is to be met. [Interruption] He tells us that it is in the pamphlet. Then why did he tell us nothing at all about it? Why did he pick out the benefits and leave out of account altogether the cost? Fortunately it is, as he says, in the pamphlet. Let us see what it says about it. It says that the cost of the scheme will be, on the average, £85,000,000 a year during the first 10 years? I am afraid it shirks the question of how that £85,000,000 is to be found. [Interruption.]
I thought this was a serious question. If so, this is not the way to debate it.
The question is not being debated.
The hon. Member must not reply to me in that way, otherwise I shall have to deal severely with him.
I said the question was shirked and that is hotly denied by hon. Members opposite. I will read the passage that deals with it. It is on
"The amounts to be contributed by the State and the contributors respectively would be fixed at the time of the introduction of these improvements and would have regard to the economic and budgetary conditions prevailing at the time and other commitments falling on the Treasury."
The right hon. Gentleman must not be unfair about this. There is a page and a half, starting on page 28, on that aspect of it and what the respective contributors can afford.
I know that there are certain hypothetical figures. I do not want to be unfair, and I am coming further to the point that the right hon. Gentleman has mentioned. I am reading now what is in the pamphlet on page 30 and I say that the pamphlet, at any rate, recognises that you must have regard, in considering what the contribution from the State is to be, to the economic and budgetary conditions prevailing at the time. That is not in the least consistent with the words that the right hon. Gentleman used when he gave us to understand that, whatever the economic and budgetary conditions, Labour, at any rate, was going to maintain and Increase its social services. That is not the view of those who drew up the pamphlet. They say that the proportion to be paid by the workers and the State will be fixed accordingly. If the division of the liability between the State, the employer and the employee were to be decided upon, the principle which has hitherto been followed in dealing with contributory old age pensions, namely, that a man should pay what would be the appropriate contribution for a person beginning his contributions at 16 in order to provide for his own pension, leaving the State to find the extra money required to make up for those who entered after the age of 16, the maximum contribution that would be obtainable from the employer and the employed together would be £38,000,000, and that would leave an immeditae cost to the Exchequer of not less than £40,000,000 a year.
Now I come to the point which the right hon. Gentleman, I think, wished me to take up, namely, the suggestion that that principle should not be retained, but should be abandoned, that the contributions to be paid by the employer and the employed should be more than the appropriate contribution actuarily calculated, and that the contributors, therefore, should be compelled to pay not only for their own pensions, but partly, at any rate, for the pensions of other people. [Interruption.] I am only trying to say what the scheme is. I want to be entirely fair and certainly, if it is a good scheme, I do not wish to object to it, but we must first see what the scheme is. Here is a subsequent publication, which was not sent to me gratis but of which I have obtained a copy, entitled "Speakers' Notes," dated 21st July, so that it is up to date. This "Speakers' Notes" says:That is a very interesting proposal. I am not prepared to say here and now that it is an impossible proposal. I am quite prepared to believe that young men who are earning good wages themselves today are thinking not only of the old people of to-day but are thinking of the time when they will be old people, and I am, therefore, prepared to believe that they might be willing to pay a substantial premium if thereby they could assure themselves of a better measure of security for their old age. Let us suppose for a moment that these figures are possible and that one can obtain an extra 9,d. from each man and an extra 6d. from each employed insured woman. We must remember that already men are paying, for health, pensions, and unemployment insurance, is. 7d. a week, and women is. 3d. These figures would bring this contribution up to 2s. 4d. and is. 9d. It sounds a heavy contribution for the lower-paid workers. I cannot say that these "Speakers' Notes "convince me at this moment, without further evidence, that insured men and women are prepared to pay as high a rate as that."Since an increase in the contributions of the above amount would more than cover the cost of the whole scheme, it is probable that, with an additional State contribution, the actual increase in weekly contributions would not be more than 9d. for men and 6d. for women."
The Trades Union Congress unanimously accepted it.
There are not only the trade unions who are concerned, because I presume that it is intended to ask the employers to increase their contributions by an equal amount. Before one imposes upon British industry such an additional handicap in the competition to which it is exposed, I think it would be entitled at least to be heard. We should have to be sure, therefore, that the implications of the scheme were fully appreciated and accepted by the employers as well as by the employed. Let us assume that that is so. Let us assume that both employers and employés are willing to find this extra 9d. and 6d How much would that leave for the Exchequer to find? During the first 1c years—the House must remember that there is no finality about the figures; they always go on increasing, but I am taking only the first 10 years—the Exchequer would have to find on an average, according to these calculations, £28,600,000 a year. [An Hon. Member: "A bagatelle."] One has to consider these figures, which to some hon. Member opposite are only a bagatelle, not by themselves but in addition to the figure of the expenses which already fall upon the Exchequer. I have already given the House some of those figures.
Let us turn for a moment to the figures of Defence expenditure. [An Hon. Member: "And subsidies."] I am only going to deal with Defence expenditure. Subsidies do not compare in amount with these abnormal figures. The old normal figure of the annual cost of our Defence Services was in the neighbourhood of £100,000,000. Before his Budget speech my right hon. Friend told the House that he anticipated that we should have to spend this year £580,000,000. By the time we came to the Third Reading of the Finance Bill that £580,000,000 had become £730,000,000. Since then there have been still further adjustments which have brought the total up to £750,000,000. But, in spite of heavy additions to taxation in three successive years, only £250,000,000 of that £750,000,000 can be provided out of current revenue this year. [Interruption.] I said out of taxes as they are imposed. They only produce £250,000,000 a year, leaving £500,000,000 to be borrowed during the year. I am afraid hon. Members think that if only you are borrowing the money it is as easy to raise £500,000,000 as to borrow 5s. from an individual. [Hon. Members: "You have done it."] I wonder whether hon. Members can be serious for a moment. However thin-skinned they are, they surely can listen while I try to put the argument to the House. I say that to raise £500,000,000 in a year is no easy task. It is one which requires very careful planning and which will require great efforts and the good will of the entire community. While this year there are certain favourable factors which make it easier than usual, we cannot expect those to be repeated next year or in future years. This country has enormous resources, not all visible or apparent. I have not the slightest doubt as to the possibility of raising the loans that may be necessary this year or in future years to meet the capital cost of our expanding programme of Defence, but there is another aspect of our expenditure on Defence which is much more serious than even the problem of raising vast sums by way of loan. It is the cost of maintaining these expanded armaments when we have completed them. I have repeatedly warned the House about this matter. As long ago as 1936 I said:Then again, on 17th February, 1937, introducing the Ways and Means Resolution for the first Defence Loans Bill I said:"Unless it is possible to come to some agreement upon a general scheme of disarmament, the cost of Defence is going to rise swiftly during the next few years to a peak, and after that it will begin to descend. The important point to bear in mind is that it will not descend to the old level…It must be anticipated that the annual cost of maintenance of the reorganised Forces will, in all likelihood, substantially exceed the £158,000,000 which was provided for in the original Estimates of this year.—[Official Report, 21st April, 1936; col. 54, Vol. 311.]
In the Debate on the Finance Bill on 1st June, 1937, I said:"In the Budget statement which I made last year… I pointed out then to the House that the inevitable result of the enlargement of our Forces, and of the various concomitants of enlarged forces, would be a permanent increase in the annual cost after the enlargement had come to an end. I said that, in my judgment, the whole of that increased cost ought to come out of revenue."—[Official Report, 17th February, 1937; col. 1213, Vol. 320.]
There is one more quotation. On 21st February, this year, I called attention to the financial anxiety to which our mounting expenditure gave rise, and I pointed out that when the process of expansion of the Defence Forces came to an end we should have to look forward to the finding of interest and Sinking Fund upon the amount that we had borrowed, and also to the annual cost of the maintenance of those increased Forces. I said that though it would be rash to venture on a prophecy as to what the figure of the annual cost of maintenance might be, one could not help wondering whether that cost together with the cost of interest and Sinking Fund might not be more than it is possible to extract from the taxpayers of this country out of current revenue. I concluded by saying:"It may be that my right hon. Friend or whoever is at the Exchequer when this period does come to an end will be glad to think that there is still something which can be put on existing taxes, direct or indirect, for undoubtedly he will have to find a very much higher level of what will then become ordinary expenditure than what we are facing to-day."—[Official Report, 1st June, 1937; col. 922. Vol. 324.]
In those extracts the House will see how deeply this point has impressed itself upon my mind for years past. I cannot help feeling that in spite of those efforts the House has not yet fully appreciated what it is that we have to face. I still refrain from prophesying what the ultimate cost of the maintenance will be. Indeed, nobody can prophesy that, because, as I said a little while ago, we are still in the middle of the programme, and no man can say when we shall come to the end of it. I ask the House very earnestly to consider this: If our present level of taxation, heavy as it is—and it is heavy—can raise only £250,000,000 for Defence, how are we in the future to find an additional sum to that which may be anything between £100,000,000 and £200,000,000? Hon. Members can themselves make the calculation as to what such sums might mean in this tax or that, but surely, while we need not be daunted by a prospect of that kind, it must make us pause before we light heartedly add £40,000,000 or £30,000,000 a year to the load which is already upon us and to that which at no distant time is in prospect. These considerations are not confined to us only, but perhaps they appeal rather more forcibly to those who are responsible for the finances of the Government at the time than to those who are still a long way off that responsibility. I remember an occasion when there were some remarks by the right hon. Gentleman opposite. It was not so long ago as those he quoted from me. It was only in 1930, at the Labour party conference in Llandudno on 9th October, when proposals, demands and claims were put forward for increases in old age pensions. The right hon. Gentleman said that he would like to ask the conference to hold its hand. They should remember what they were asking; they were asking for something which had got to be taken in conjunction with the many other things they had been asking for that week. He was very glad to hear that they had got a generous heart, but generous hearts did not foot bills. On the same occasion, I think it was, there was an interesting observation by a gentleman who is not a Member of this House, Mr. Ernest Bevin, who carries great weight in trades union circles."Does it not show up the terrible self-delusion of those who argue that, if we now spend so freely, it cannot hurt us to add a few tens of millions to our annual expenditure, even if those tens of millions produce no money return whatever? "— [Official Report, 21st February, 1939; col. 233, Vol. 344.]
And in National Service schemes.
He said he was in favour, as a general principle, of pensions at 60, and that if the Government representatives on the platform—including the right hon. Gentleman—got up and told him there was any hope of getting that in the next year or two, he would get down from the rostrum without saying another word. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman must have wished he would, because this is what he went on to say: He was a little bit tired of going round at elections promising things and then not being able to deliver the goods.
What did you promise in 1935?
Hon. Members might like to hear the rest of what Mr. Bevin said. He said that a lot of resolutions carried by the conference in the past had been carried when they were a long way from responsibility. That is their position to-day. I cannot help thinking that if hon. Members opposite were in our place they would see much more clearly than they appear to do the sheer impossibility of undertaking at this time schemes which would impose major additions upon the burdens we can already see before us.
In those circumstances, is there anything that we can do? I recognise that these figures running into hundreds of millions of pounds, which make very little impression upon hon. Members opposite, cannot be expected to be assimilated by people who are very near the poverty line, perhaps are even past it, and whose lives are naturally concentrated upon the facts of their daily lives and the difficulties of making two ends meet. It is impossible to withhold sympathy from people in such a condition as that. Perhaps one feels it all the more because, speaking broadly, this is a time when the majority of our insured workers are in good, steady work and are making good money.And working hard, too.
Working hard certainly, but they are making good money. One cannot help contrasting the position of these people with those who are past working age and who cannot, in any circumstances, whether they work hard or not, hope to add anything appreciable to their incomes. I am not prepared to say that the last word has been said upon this matter. Some allusion has been made to a letter which I wrote to the hon. Member for East Birkenhead (Mr. White) It seems to have been thought that that letter was a flat refusal of any consideration of any alteration in the present system. If hon. Members will be good enough to read the letter again, they will see that that is not so. I will quote what I said. I said that we could not accept any scheme
That is our position. But the question to which I want to address myself now is: Is there anything that can be done without bringing upon us that danger to which I alluded in my letter to the hon. Member? I think that from what I have said to the House it will be apparent that the answer to that question must depend upon what the present contributors are prepared to do by way of additional contribution. That is a matter which the Government have been considering, and I welcome the opportunity which this Debate gives me of making an announcement of what we have decided. It is quite clear that nothing can be decided without further information on that vital point. It is not enough for the right hon. Gentleman to tell me that the trade unions have unanimously accepted the scheme. We must have, I think, more specific assurances than that. We must consult employers, who are to be asked to pay higher contributions, as well as workers; and we must consider what is the limit that we might reasonably ask the Exchequer to undertake in order to bring about any particular form of improvement or expansion. We have decided ourselves to undertake, without delay, an investigation into these matters. We intend to collect the information which we feel is required; we shall ascertain in the recognised fashion the views of those who would be contributors; and we shall thus put ourselves in a position to decide what improvements or modifications may be possible."which would involve such additional demands on the National Exchequer as would imperil that financial stability on which depend the well-being of industry and employment and the maintenance of all the existing services."
Before the next election?
I should like to say, in order that there may be no misunderstanding, that of course all that must be subject to the overriding condition that we must not impose undue burdens upon the Exchequer, in view of the considerations I have put to the House already. The House may say: Is this a dodge?—I think that that was the expression that the right hon. Gentleman used. No doubt he was basing himself upon the time it takes the Labour party to conduct an inquiry of this kind. They cannot do it under three years. I do not think it will take us three years, or even three months. Already we have a great deal of the information that is required. We have to supply certain gaps. I hope that before the end of this Recess it will be possible for us to have arrived at our decision.
If the result enables us to do anything to ameliorate the position of the widows and old age pensioners, nobody will rejoice more heartily than I shall. I still hope that, when the tyranny of present conditions is past, the time will come when it will be possible to contemplate improvements and extensions of our social services, including our pension system, of a more extensive character. I am bound to point out the impossibility of making any great addition to our annual expenditure, but this country has been through some terrible times and trials in the past, and it has always emerged from them with new resources and unexpected vitality. I look forward, therefore, to the time when the horizon is sufficiently clear to enable us, in spite of our accumulated debts, to embark upon fresh advances which will brighten and better the lot of the people. I do not imagine that I, myself, will be permitted to play any active part in such a process as that, for it is evident that a good many years may have yet to elapse before that time comes. Nevertheless, even if I do not play an active part in it myself, I trust I may live to see it.5.36 p.m.
The right hon. Gentleman, in the opening sentences of his speech, said that he regarded our proceedings this afternoon as the climax of an agitation which had been proceeding in the country. I do not know how that may be, but I regard it myself as the reflection in this House of a stirring of the national conscience, which, with widening knowledge of the subject, has come to regard it as discreditable that there should be so much poverty in our midst. I and my hon. and right hon. Friends propose to support the Motion, but, having said that, I would say at once for my own part that I derive no personal satisfaction from the fact that we are discussing this matter in terms of censure. Reference has been made this afternoon to the early opposition to the introduction of old age pensions in this country. We know that at the time it was fierce. But since then all parties have made contributions to the system of pensions which we now enjoy. The right hon. Gentleman himself referred with legitimate pride to the part which he had played in the passing of legislation with regard to old age pensions, and I am inclined to think he will regard it as one of the most abiding satisfactions of any that he has found in his long career. Therefore I think it would have been better if this afternoon we had been able to discuss this proposal for increased comfort and care for the aged in the terms in which I believe the whole House would wish it to be dealt with.
There is no doubt whatever that there is an overwhelming mass of opinion in the House which wishes something to be done, and to be done as soon as possible. The House does not ask for the impossible, but I am convinced, from the mass of correspondence that has reached me during the past few months, not only from aged people and pensioners but from young people and people who are not directly concerned with the problem at all, that the country wishes something to be done, and feels that it is a reproach that so much hardship and distress among the old people should exist and not be removed. I regard the removal of this reproach as being a vital element in our national defence. The quality of any civilisation, I consider, may be judged by the opportunities it affords to its young and the care which it takes of its aged. If democracy is to survive, it will survive in the long run only because it is efficient, and because it is able to give a fair and square deal to all the members of the community. That is the spirit in which I, and, I believe, my hon. and right hon. Friends here, approach this subject. The speech of the right hon. Gentleman has been awaited with the very greatest interest and with some apprehension. The old age pensioners of this country have been asking for bread, and they have been promised an inquiry, with the possibility of something at the end of that inquiry. We in this House do not need to be told of the great and growing burdens of defence which have to be borne by our community, but these matters are looked at in a different light in the country, and especially among those whom we are particularly considering this afternoon. The mere fact that our expenditure has grown so quickly and to such an enormous extent has added to the feeling and the wish that something should be done. One is asked on all sides, "If you can spend so many hundreds of millions upon armaments, why is it that you can do nothing for us? You can give subsidies to sugar, to herring, to oats, to a dozen other things, and yet you have not either the time or the ability to take care of the old people."That may be illogical, but it is quite natural, and it is a very important factor in the widespread feeling and demand that is showing itself in this House and is translating itself on the Order Paper. I believe it makes every Member of the House anxious that something should be done at the earliest possible moment. I am not much impressed by the argument that, because only 10 per cent, of those who are old age pensioners are in receipt of Poor Law relief, nothing should be done on that account. That is not an accurate measure of the amount of suffering that is being borne at the present time. The old age pensioners are of an earlier generation than ourselves; they were brought up in a great spirit of independence; and I am informed, by one who for a long time has been an observer of the Poor Law and the way in which it is worked, a man who has had great responsibility, that he would not like to say how many people are suffering in the evening of their lives because of the aversion which they feel for the Poor Law. There is one aspect of the matter which I am not sure has been mentioned. At the age of 65 and upwards there are many people who become seriously infirm; there are the lame, the blind, and others who are smitten with various forms of invalidity. This imposes an additional hardship upon them even if they are receiving Poor Law relief—and many are not receiving it— because they have to undertake the double journey to collect both the pension and the relief. The House has listened with special interest to what the Prime Minister has said about the growing burden on the Exchequer, but I am not sure that part of this demand could not be met without throwing fresh burdens on the Exchequer at all. In so far as £6,000,000 is now given in supplement to old age pensions, that liability would be transferred to the Exchequer without increasing the burden upon the community as a whole. It is the desire that that should be done that has prompted the deputation from the Association of Municipal Corporations and the County Councils Association to which reference has been made. But in a country which spends every year £50,000,000 for the satisfaction of burying itself properly, it is useless to say to me that our resources are such that we cannot do more than we are now doing for the living. What we need is not merely a short-term policy, which is going to give as much as possible now—whether as a result of an ad hoc inquiry or not I do not care—but also a long-term policy, under which it will be seen whether we are getting full value for the £480,000,000 a year that we are spending on the social services. In the matter of our social services, we are, of course, paying a penalty be- cause we were, in fact, pioneers. If we were starting afresh, we should not proceed on the lines on which we are proceeding, but from a much broader base. We might proceed on the lines followed in the United States of America, or on the more comprehensive base that has been adopted in New Zealand. In mentioning these, I should admit that these are new methods which have not yet stood the test of time; but we certainly would not proceed on the lines along which we have followed so long. We have followed no complete, coordinated coherent plan, but one party and another have made well meaning and perhaps beneficent, additions without any plan whatever. The result is that the system is full of gaps; there are many anomalies and a great deal of extravagant overlapping. We want a short-term plan, which will give the country something to satisfy its conscience immediately, but it is essential that we should remove the extraordinary state of affairs whereby our social services are administered by perhaps a dozen different authorities in different ways, without any single authority being charged with the duty of surveying them as a whole keeping them constantly under review, and revising them where necessary. The first thing to be done—and I hope the Government will not put difficulties in the way—is to set up an expert statutory authority charged with that duty. Once such a body were set up, if they could not save from rate-borne expenditure— though it would not happen at once, I agree—as much as is provided now, to supplement old age pensions, I would— to make use of a phrase which has been employed by the Prime Minister —be prepared to eat my hat. That statutory authority would have to exert continuous supervision of the principles governing the relationship of the social services one to another and to the social services as a whole, and their relationship to the available resources of the nation. They would have to give constant study to the administrative and financial structure of the different services in order to secure more efficient and economic working. Lastly—and, I should think, most important—they would have to survey the gaps and the anomalies which exist, to determine the order of priority in which, in the interests of the nation as a whole, they should be dealt with—whether it is old age pensions, the question of family allowances, or the granting of national health benefits to the dependants of all insured persons. All questions of that kind would be considered by this body, which would recommend to the Government who would take the responsibility of suggesting them to Parliament. The right hon. Gentleman referred to the difficulties which may arise owing to the changing age structure of the population. We may very well have to revise our ideas as to what is the age at which people should retire from work. What we should proceed with now is a policy of consolidation and expansion, and in the sphere of old age pensions we must work towards what is described loosely a policy of national superannuation, which will give to those who wish to retire from industry adequate benefits when they do in fact retire. That is the long-term policy. The more immediate question arises from the fact that it is deeply felt in the country that these old people should not have to live a sort of sub-human existence, in which they spend their time in calculating how they are going to make both ends meet. The argument that the cost-of-living index is so much less now than it was when old age pensions were first introduced does not make the impression on my mind that those who put it forward might expect. The old age pensioner conducts his budget not in pounds, shillings and pence, but often in pence alone. Therefore, he is not affected by the whole range of products which go to make up the cost-of-living index. The products he can offset are simple and few. An extra 2d. on sugar or 1d. on the loaf or 2d. on tea have an effect on him out of all relationship to the effect which it has on the budgets of those of us who sit in this House. Such are the considerations which have induced us to support this Motion. We think that the sentiment, the feeling, of this House is that something should be done now; but, in face of the growing difficulties, in face of the unquestioned inefficiencies and extravagancies of the existing system, there should be also a long-term policy which would enable us to bear the burdens of the future and, at the same time, do greater justice to our people than will be possible if we go on in the future as we have in the past.5.51 p.m.
In making this first contribution to the Debates of the House, I would ask the House to bear with me. In rising to support this Motion of Censure which is being discussed not only in this House but in something like 2,000,000 cottages throughout this country, I would like to bring before the House an account of some of the experiences of those of our people who are affected. The answer of this House on this question will determine the degree of happiness in hundreds of thousands of cottages scattered over this Realm. The main facts of this problem are well known. There are 1,894,175 persons over the age of 65, compelled to live, as best they can, on a weekly pension of 10s. The cost to the Exchequer and to the country generally has been stated by the right hon. Gentleman. I do not propose to follow him on those intricate matters, but this I have noticed: that this Government has never failed to find the necessary money for the objects of which it approves. It is proposed in this Motion that the weekly payment of pensions should be increased, and the Government are being censured not only for refusing to grant an increase, but for refusing even to discuss the problem. It appears that the Government are not concerned with the condition of some 2,000,000 of our people. Is it because these are poor people? Considerable time has been given in the last few months to discussing the position of smaller numbers of rich people, and to the pouring out of millions of money, without any shadow of a means test, to the friends of hon. Members on the opposite side.
Of the total number of persons over the age of 65 nearly 400,000 are engaged in insurable employment— and that at a time when 1,250,000 younger men are uable to find work. I notice that, according to the report of the Unemployment Assistance Board, the average cost to the country of each unemployment claim was about 24s. a week. On this phase of the problem, which was referred to in a previous Debate in this House, I would like to offer some observations. It was said that not many old age pensioners— and it has been said to-day—would give up their employment even if the pension were increased. I have been associated with the Welsh mining industry, and it has been a painful experience for me to watch these aged miners dragging their work-worn bodies to and from the pits. There lives not far from my home in South Wales a collier, who, at the age of 71, is still working. He has given nearly 60 years of his life to the mines. He has produced an untold quantity of wealth for the State. He has helped to make millionaires with his labour, and there he is, at a time when he should be able to take a well-earned rest, struggling to keep going, because this Government know no gratitude towards those who have made the largest contribution to the wealth and well-being of the State. I am satisfied that in the mining industry the large majority of aged miners would be only too glad to take a rest in the winter of their days if only this pension were adequate to maintain themselves without having to be beholden to private charity or parish relief. Nearly400,000 are in this position, and it ought not to be beyond the wit of this Government to give the old ones a rest and the young ones a chance to live their own lives in decent wage-earning employment. May I refer to those whose extremity is so great that it overcomes their spirit of pride and independence? On 1st January, 1936, over 232,000 old age pensioners were in receipt of public assistance; in 1937, over 214,000; in 1938, over 230,000; and on 1st January this year, over 250,000. Have hon. Members in this House ever seen the ghastly spectacle of the aged people queueing up at the public assistance office? I would advise hon. Members who have doubts on this question to go to the public assistance office in their own towns on the morning when the few shillings are being paid out to the old age pensioners. They are the men whose bodies have been broken with age and in the service of this country, and the aged mothers of our people. They are decent, tidy folk, with patched clothes, very often green with age, who have attempted to hide their poverty, with all the domestic devices known to the working class; slinking along with heads bent, in the hope that they will not be noticed by their fellow-citizens. It is with feelings of shame that I have watched this spectacle; feelings of shame that this, the greatest Empire in the world, could treat its creators in such a callous manner. We are perpetrating a worse cruelty still on the fathers and mothers of our people. For the purpose of applying the household means test to unemployed applicants who live in the households of old age pensioners, a sum of £1,457,000 of pension money is taken into account for the purpose of reducing their allowances. This was the answer given by the Minister of Labour on 22nd June of this year to a question put to him by my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdare (Mr. G. Hall). To use a phrase from the right hon. Gentleman's vocabulary, "Ye know not what ye do" to the common people of this country. It was contended in the previous Debate on the question of old age pensions that 10s. per week was adequate, with certain other resources, to maintain the pensioners. It was said to be adequate because there were only some 250,000 in receipt of public assistance. Hon. Members on the opposite side of the House have been freely credited with such opinions. Is this factor so conclusive? This figure relates only to those who obtained public assistance, and not to those who applied for it. What about those who have been refused, and those who, out of feelings of pride and independence, have refused to apply for such assistance, and perforce are living in a condition of semi-starvation? In the South Wales coalfield the majority of the people who go on to pension do so off unemployment benefit. They are the people who form the hard-core of unemployment in South Wales. I know the home of a collier intimately. He started work in the mines at the age of 10, and worked up to 1924, when the depression hit South Wales. He had brought up a family of seven children on the standard of decency common to our mining villages. He had got together a respectable home. He had scraped to buy his own cottage. In the long lean years since he became unemployed he has used up all his resources. His rates went unpaid, until the outstanding debts were greater than the available assets. The cottage was sold to meet the debts. I have been in the habit of visiting that household on each birthday of this unemployed collier. Last year I again visited it on his birthday. It was his sixty-fifth. This birthday was not a day of celebration and congratulations. The miserable bit of unemployment assistance, some 27s. per week, had come to an end. Henceforward, because the wife was some years younger, the total income was to be 10s. That birthday was a day of tragedy. Independence was gone. Pride had to be swallowed, and he and his wife had to ask their sons and daughters to keep them until the day when the grave claimed them. When hon. Members opposite talk of other resources which our people are supposed to have, I cannot forget the tears in the eyes of my own mother on the day that my father reached his sixty-fifth birthday. There is one further point with which I should like to deal before concluding. The contention that the country cannot afford to keep its aged people has been raised a number of times. This House will recollect the hon. and gallant Member for Bewdley (Captain Conant), no doubt echoing the voice of his political friends, contending last November that, with taxation at the rate of £352,000,000, to pay an increased pension would precipitate a crisis similar to that of 1931. Last week I had the pleasure of hearing the Chancellor of the Exchequer deliver his speech from the Front Bench opposite when he became almost lyrical on the ability of this country to stand up to an expenditure of £900,000,000 out of taxation this year, and at the same time being able to raise a loan of £500,000,000. Yet we have had no crisis. This money, in the main, is being raised to protect the shores of this island, and at the same time we are told that we cannot afford to raise some £95,000,000 to keep the wolf from the doors of our aged poor. It would appear that for those who form the financial bulwarks of the party opposite, the Exchequer door is wide open, but for those who perform the hard work of this nation just the cold comfort of the speeches of the hon. Members on the benches opposite is sufficient. Here is a great human problem, and this House is asked to deal with it in such a way as to warrant it not only calling itself the Mother of Parliaments, but also the mother of its own people.6.8 p.m.
I beg to move, in line 1, to leave out from "House," to the end of the Question, and to add instead thereof:
Before I begin my speech, I would like to congratulate the hon. Gentleman the Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Ness Edwards) on his maiden speech. I am glad to have that opportunity, because on two occasions I fought the division which he won. I am sure that the House will look forward to hearing a great deal of the hon. Member in the future. I move the Amendment in manuscript, a copy of which I have handed in at the Table."welcomes the announcement that His Majesty's Government intend to institute without delay a thorough investigation into old age pensions with a view to reaching prompt conclusions, and expresses the hope that without placing undue burdens on the Exchequer some improvements will be found to be practicable. "
6.10 p.m.
On a point of Order. Do I understand, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, that you propose to call this manuscript Amendment? I would remind you that Mr. Speaker earlier in the day, in response to one of my hon. Friends, said that it was his intention to call no Amendments which were on the Paper, and is not this a very unusual proceeding?
Before the hon. Member proceeds further I would inform him that I made inquiries and asked what I should do about the manuscript Amendment. As I was to be in the Chair after Mr. Speaker vacated it, I took the precaution of getting his written authority.
I quite understand, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, that you find yourself in a difficult position. Mr. Speaker stated earlier to-day that it was not his intention to call either of the Amendments on the Paper, and I submit that it is rather a novel procedure in this House that a manuscript Amendment—and not a Government Amendment to an official Motion —should be moved in this matter. If an occupant of the Front Bench had handed in such an Amendment, it would have been a different thing, but for a private Member to hand in an Amendment which is not on the Order Paper, when it was clearly understood that the Debate was to be proceeded with on the basis of the Motion, for or against, is, if I am not mistaken, something that has not happened during the 15 or 16 years that I have been in this House.
I made special inquiries of Mr. Speaker himself, and in my discretion I have called the Amendment.
I quite understand. If Mr. Speaker had been present I should have ventured to call his attention to the statement he made earlier to-day, and I think that in my action I would be supported by all hon. Members.
May we have Mr. Speaker's reasons for the rejection of certain Amendments and the acceptance of a manuscript Amendment?
Certainly not. It is entirely a matter for Mr. Speaker to select or not to select.
6.12 p.m.
I do not wish to appear ungenerous or to ask for Mr. Speaker's reasons, but I would like to confirm the fact that I, too, have never witnessed a similar proceeding in this House. We were taken by surprise to find that, after Mr. Speaker had said that no Amendment on the Paper would be called, another Amendment had satisfied Mr. Speaker for to-day's Debate. We assumed that there would be no Amendment taken to-day.
I have no re collection of such an incident before. It is very strange that in order to facilitate a certain party's attitude—
The hon. Member may not discuss this incident from that aspect.
On a point of Order. A very unusual precedent is now being established. After the Debate has proceeded a certain way, and it is seen how the Debate is going, advantage is taken to put in a manuscript Amendment which merely uses the procedure of the House as an instrument of party dodgery.
May we have the advantage of having some copies of this Amendment? I do not think that there are three Members in the House who know the terms if it.
May we not have the cooperation of the Chief Government Whip on this matter as he must know something about it? The House has been led to believe that no Amendment will be discussed to-day because the Speaker said that neither of the Amendments on the Paper had received his approval. Are we not entitled to a statement on this matter?
6.14 p.m.
I do not think that this is a matter for me to explain. Surely, it is entirely Mr. Speaker's concern whether an Amendment, manuscript or otherwise, is accepted or not. I understood Mr. Speaker's Ruling to be on the question put earlier in the day by the hon. Gentleman below the Gangway, and he said that he did not propose to select either of those Amendments. I did not understand him to say he was not going to accept any Amendment.
6.15 p.m.
On the Order Paper there were two Amendments, and when the point was raised by an hon. Member opposite as to whether either of those Amendments was to be called, the Speaker—so I understood him—said that he did not propose to accept any Amendments. [Hon. Members: "He did not say that."] That is the impression I got, quite distinctly. Clearly this looks—I am not accusing Mr. Speaker, because I do not think he would do it—as if it is an arrangement that has been arrived at to serve a particular political purpose. There can be no other purpose in a procedure such as this. A statement is made by the Prime Minister, and after that statement has been made a manuscript Amendment is submitted to the Speaker, and no other Members of the House, so far as I know, knew anything about it. We are not even in possession of a copy of it. It is a most extraordinary proceeding.
I have already stated that this criticism of Mr. Speaker is out of order.
Would it not be proper, in the unusual circumstances, to ask Mr. Speaker to be here in order to explain to the House the reason for his decision?
May I ask for a precedent for this particular proceeding. Can the Deputy-Speaker inform the House of any similar proceedings that has taken place here?
6.17 p.m.
It has been known for some days that this Debate was to take place, and hon. Members in all parts of the House have prepared their speeches, just as the Prime Minister and the Deputy-Leader of the Opposition have done, on the basis of the Motion before the House. After that has been done, suddenly, on a matter of general principle of this kind, the procedure of the House is used for the purpose of thwarting the wishes of hon. Members in many parts of the House. It does seem to me, in my respectful submission, that whilst hon. Members opposite are perfectly entitled to seek every party advantage they can, they ought not to use the procedure of this House as an instrument for that purpose.
The Amendment does not limit the scope of the Debate. The Debate can go on just the same.
In view of the difficulties in which hon. Members are placed, may I suggest, without contravening Mr. Speaker's Ruling, that the calling of this Amendment be deferred in order that we may have an opportunity of having distributed to us copies of the Amendment, so that we may know what we are talking about?
I have already called on the hon. Member to move the Amendment. Mr. Rowlands.
Before we proceed, may I raise a point of Order? I must express a sense of grievance which I think back benchers on this side of the House will have with me when I say that a written Amendment drafted by myself and my colleagues was not called, whereas a verbal Amendment has been called.
What is the Amendment?
I will read it again. I am sorry that I could not give notice of the Amendment sooner. I had to wait until I had heard the Prime Minister's speech. The Amendment is that this House
"welcomes the announcement that His Majesty's Government intend to institute without delay a thorough investigation into old age pensions, with a view to reaching prompt conclusions, and expresses the hope that with- out placing undue burdens on the Exchequer some improvements will be found to be practicable."
This is a very important matter, and I should like to ask whether it would be possible for copies of the Amendment to be supplied to us. It is almost impossible to follow that long sentence. Copies, no doubt, arc available in the Patronage Secretary's office.
6.20 p.m.
Now that you are in the Chair, Mr. Speaker, may I raise a point of Order? I think I am entitled to inform you that many of us on this side of the House were taken very much by surprise when we found that a manuscript Amendment had been called, after you had declared from the Chair your intention not to call either of the two Amendments on the Order Paper. In your absence—we did not know all the circumstances—an hon. Member opposite rose to address the House and moved a manuscript Amendment, which was allowed to be read, and which we understood was to be allowed to be debated. On this side of the House we are very much disturbed to find that such procedure was possible, because we had assumed that there would be no Amendment taken to-day. I do not wish to quote your exact words nor your exact intention, but I do say that on this side of the House every single Member is surprised at the way the proceedings have developed. Speaking for myself, having been in the House for 17 years, I have never known such a thing to occur before, and I think it does savour of the appearance of extemporisation to favour the other side.
6.22 p.m.
May I submit this point of view, Mr. Speaker? It is difficult to do it without casting reflections, but the impression is in my mind and in the minds of other hon. Members and it is well for the Chair that it should be answered. In all fairness to the Chair there should be an answer given. Some of us have a feeling in connection with the calling of this Amendment that the ordinary rules have not been worked. We have a feeling that the Government have put forward this Amendment and that the Government have influenced the Chair in the acceptance of the Amendment. That is our feeling. We feel that this Amendment has got precedence over another Amendment which was on the Order Paper because the Government have exercised undue pressure, and pressure that we do not like. I should like to know whether it is correct that the Government have exercised pressure on this matter and have had a privilege which they are not entitled to exercise.
Further to that point of Order. May I stress, with very great respect, the rights and privileges of Private Members of this House. Forty-eight hours ago I and my friends put down an Amendment to the Motion we are discussing to-day, and immediately after the Deputy-Leader of the Opposition had spoken, I asked you, Mr. Speaker, whether our Amendment was going to be called. Your answer was "No." I accepted that answer as a loyal Member of this House, and it is with a deep sense of grievance that one finds a little later on that a verbal Amendment has been handed in to the Chair and accepted, whereas written Amendments are totally ignored.
6.24 p.m.
The manuscript Amendment which has been read fastens itself upon the statement that the Prime Minister is alleged to have made. As the statement of the Prime Minister cannot be remembered by hon. Members, if the manuscript Amendment is carried then something which purports to be a statement of the Prime Minister will have become the Resolution of this House. Is it not, therefore, in these circumstances desirable that both the statement made by the Prime Minister, which is sought to be embodied in the manuscript Amendment, and the manuscript Amendment itself should be available to hon. Members in all parts of the House, in order that they may know what they are voting on in the Division Lobby this evening?
It is perfectly true that I did earlier on, when I was asked a question, say that I was not going to call either of the Amendments on the Order Paper, because my practice has always been in case of a Vote of Censure moved by the Opposition to have a straight vote; that is, assuming certain circumstances. Neither of those Amendments appeared to me to be worth calling on their merits—
Oh, Mr. Speaker!
—worth calling on their merits as regards the Motion standing in the name of the Deputy-Leader of the Opposition, which Motion regrets the refusal of the Government to provide ways and means. That was the position then, but no one can deny that the speech of the Prime Minister has considerably altered the situation. There is no denying that fact. The Motion regrets the refusal of the Government to provide the necessary ways and means, but the statement of the Prime Minister was that he proposes to look into the question to see whether ways and means can be provided. That distinctly alters the position. That being so, to give a direct negative vote could not meet the case, because it would be a direct negative of something that was not going to take place. Therefore, I think the whole situation is altered. For this reason, I advised the Deputy-Speakers that it would be wrong if they refused to accept an Amendment in the altered situation.
On that particular ruling, Mr. Speaker, the precise nature of the undertaking which the Prime Minister gave to the House forms the basis of your Ruling. Therefore, it is of the greatest possible importance that the nature of the Prime Minister's statement should be available to Members in all parts of the House. The language used by the Prime Minister is of the utmost importance, because the manuscript Amendment relates to what is alleged to have been said by the Prime Minister. Without questioning the grounds upon which you have made your Ruling, may I suggest, in order that we may have an intelligent discussion on the manuscript Amendment, that the precise nature of the Prime Minister's statement should be available to hon. Members, along with the nature of the manuscript Amendment, otherwise the House may find itself to have resolved something which is entirely different from what the Prime Minister said, and may have misled itself and stultified itself in the division that will follow this evening?
6.28 p.m.
The only further point I want to put is this. Even if it were the case, as it is the case, that you have ruled in regard to the Prime Minister's speech, that it has altered the situation, the point that is rankling in the minds of a good many of us is that if the Prime Minister's statement has altered the situation, then ought not the Government themselves to have brought forward an Amendment and have moved it themselves? What we feel is—may I put it quite fairly, without casting the slightest reflection upon you or either of your Deputies in this matter?—that if after the Prime Minister's statement, the Government wanted to take a certain line, the Prime Minister or someone acting for the Government ought to have put down the Amendment. What we have before us now, I am putting it quite fairly, is really a Government Amendment being moved on behalf of the Government by a private Member. Is it not playing with the House that this present procedure should be adopted?
Votes of Censure Motions have to be considered on one day. I do not think anyone can deny that the Prime Minister's statement alters the situation, and I think that the House should he able to consider the altered situation. That being so, and the situation having been altered, it would be impossible for hon. Members to put themselves in the right to consider the proposal if an Amendment is not moved. I think so, and I think it would be very unfair and rather reducing the House to impotence if when a new situation does arise the House should be unable to deal with it on its merits.
I understood that my Amendment had been turned down on its merits as in no way affecting the provision of the necessary ways and means for an extension of old age pensions. I submit with great respect that my Amendment has everything to do with that, and that it should have been called from the Chair.
I submit that the significance of the Prime Minister's statement is unknown in the House, the nature of the suggestion made by the Prime Minister was left very vague. We do not know whether it is to be a Select Committee, a sub-committee, a Government committee, or when it is to be called. We do not know precisely to what the Prime Minister has committed himself, and, therefore, we do not know the meaning of the manuscript Amendment. If we had both proposals before us they could be examined, but the nature of this procedure makes it impossible for us to examine either and prevents the House from effectively discussing the matter. I submit that this procedure is very rarely adopted and ought not to have been adopted in this case.
6.33 p.m.
The original Motion of the Deputy Leader of the Opposition regretted the refusal of His Majesty's Government to provide the necessary ways and means. The Prime Minister in his reply stoutly protested that he had never refused to do anything of the kind. If that be the case the question for the House to decide on the original Motion is whether such refusal has ever been made and the statement of the Prime Minister does not make any difference to the situation. At least that is what I submit.
We all make mistakes, and I may have made a mistake, but I do not think I have. I think it will be much better if we proceed with the Debate.
May I put one point? If the manuscript Amendment is moved and it is possible to obtain a copy of it, will it be possible for any hon. Member to move an Amendment to the manuscript Amendment in order to bring it into greater conformity with the Prime Minister's speech? Would you, Mr. Speaker, accept such an Amendment.
It is always open to hon. Members to move Amendments.
6.36 p.m.
I think I had better read the manuscript Amendment again. It is in line 1, to leave out from "House,"to the end, and to add
I think hon. Members in all parts of the House are anxious to do the best they can for these old people. We are agreed that these old people deserve the best that the nation can do, and it may be that the only difference between us is a difference of opinion as to what can be done for them without doing more harm than good. I was wondering why this Motion had been put down at all, except that it is a move on the part of political dodgers. I am not unmindful of the fact that many times the party opposite have used the old people for electioneering purposes. I remember fighting the election in 1923 when both the Conservative and the Labour party were offering pensions. We were offering a contributory pensions scheme and the Opposition were offering a non-contributory pensions scheme. The following year, in the beginning of 1924, the Labour party were elected, but we never heard a word about old age pensions, and at the end of 1924 the Conservative party were returned to a great extent upon a contributory pensions scheme. In 1925 they passed the Widows', Orphans' and Old Age Contributory Pensions Scheme.:"welcomes the announcement that His Majesty's Government intend to institute without delay a thorough investigation into old age pensions with a view of reaching prompt conclusions, and expresses the hope that without placing undue burdens on the Exchequer some improvements will be found to be practicable."
I challenge the hon. Member to find a single word in the Conservative party's programme promising widows' pensions.
They promised contributory pensions in 1924 it was in my own election address, and it was there because it was advocated by my leaders. In any case, if we gave it without promising it, so much the more credit to us. But no one can deny that hon. Members opposite were promising non-contributory pensions, and when the Bill came before the House they moved Amendments that pensions should be non-contributory. The right hon. Member who moved the Motion spoke on an Amendment that pensions should be £1, that is the amount he has suggested to-day, and he said:
The right hon. Member brought in a Widows' Pensions Amendment Bill in 1929, but he never included that in his Bill, and drew this rebuke from the late Mr. John Wheatley:"If the Government of this country really desired to pay pensions to widows on the scale that we suggest, it could be done; and the Government know it."
That was in 1929. What was the position in 1929 as compared with 1939? At that time, when hon. Members opposite came into power, there were 960,000 unemployed, and £100,000,000 a year less was spent on the social services. At that time, instead of there being a rearmament programme there was a disarmament programme, and now in 1939, after moving Vote after Vote of Censure on the foreign policy of the Government, and after the Government have spent eight years in saving the country from the position in which it was left by the Labour Government in 1931, they say, "You refuse to give pensions to the aged people."I do not think any Members of the House would refuse to give pensions or refuse to increase pensions if they could see their way clear. I say that a thorough investigation is necessary before you can come to a decision on this important matter. For some years the surplus in the pension fund has been dwindling. In 1936 we had to increase the contributions to pay 10s. a week; in 1946 there will be another increased contribution, and in 1956 there will also be an increased contribution. The dwindling surplus in the pension fund justifies the provisions of the Act of 1925. On the top of that we have to face a prospective decline in our population. The Prime Minister dealt with this point to some extent, and it has been discussed in the House of Lords. The right hon. Member for Sparkbrook (Mr. Amery) on one occasion made this statement:"When we were in opposition did not we night after night damn the late Tory Government because they proposed to pay 10s. a week to the unemployed girls? Did we not pursue the same policy during the election? The most damaging blow that was dealt at the Tory Government during the election was our reminding the electors that the Government had a 10s. a week mind for the members of the working classes. That won the election, and they sent us here. Now we are told that the country cannot afford it."—[Official Report, 31st October, 1929; col. 407, Vol. 231.]
"To-day out of every 100 persons in this country there are 23 below the age of 15 and 12 above the age of 60 By 1975 there will be seven below 15 and 30 above 60. If the present progress goes on unchecked, in 60 years time there will be only four children under 15 and 44 persons above 60."—[Official Report, 24th June, 1938; col. 1428, Vol. 337.]
I quote these figures in order to show that we are becoming an aged population and that the cost of pensions will increase year after year. There is one important factor which is absolutely ignored by Members of the Opposition. The right hon. Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) did not quote a single figure as to the cost of these pensions, nor how it should be met, but it is a fact that we are quickly becoming an aged population and that the receivers of pensions are increasing. We are rearming, we hope, to save the peace, but there are people who believe that war is inevitable, and the possibility of war should not be ignored in embarking on a pensions scheme at this time. If we have war undoubtedly 500,000 or 1,000,000 of our young people will be slain. That is a large percentage of the productive population, and it would mean that the balance of the young to the old will be made much worse. In addition, even if there is no war and even if we won the war, that is not the end. We should be committed to tremendous costs in compensation payments arising out of the war. Hon. Members opposite look to the future with great gloom. They say that the decrease in unemployment is due to the rearmament policy, and that if there is peace, and the rearmament programme ends, there will be 3,000,000 or 4,000,000 unemployed. Have they had that consideration in mind in bringing forward a scheme for old age pensions of £1 a week? Despite all this, I hope that something may be done. I cannot at the moment see any possibility of anything being done on a huge scale, although I hope that the investigation will prove me to be wrong. Not only do I hope that something will be done, but I can visualise a time, in the future, when the skill, ingenuity and ability which have been responsible for increasing the production of arms at such a terrific rate may be utilised in increasing the production of wealth, and thus enable the nation to do what it ought for its old people. If it be found, when the investigation is completed, that what can be done is of a limited nature, I should like to suggest two things which I think might be done. First, there is the anomaly with regard to the wife of a man of 65 who happens to be younger than her husband. In the case of unemployment benefit, she qualifies immediately the man qualifies, and she gets unemployment benefit in virtue of his insurance. She also gets her contributory pension in virtue of his insurance, but she does not get it when he qualifies. I think that she ought to do so. I hope that if it is found that what can be done is of a limited nature, that will be one of the first reforms. Secondly, I realise that to-day the local authorities are bearing a very heavy burden in supplementing old age pensions. That is something which should be given first consideration if the resources are limited. I cannot see why the pensions committee which decides whether an old non-contributory pensioner is to receive his pension should not be utilised to decide what the pension should be, and that, instead of the man receiving his pension and having it supplemented by the public assistance committee, he should get the whole sum from the Post Office in one payment, which would be borne by the State. In my opinion, that would be a great advantage to the local authorities, because they would be relieved of a burden which hon. Members tell us is as much as 2s. in the £in some areas. I think the whole of this question deserves the closest investigation before the Government commit themselves to a huge programme which might cause great unemployment, hamper industry, and do a great deal more harm than good."In 1881 if you took the people over 60 compared with the people under 20, it was a proportion of one to six. When we got down to 1931 the proportion was one to three. Next year, 1940, it will be one to two, that is, for every person over 60 there will be only two under 20."
6.50 p.m.
I beg to second the Amendment.
I do so because I am a convinced believer in the necessity for increasing old age pensions. I have listened to hon. Members citing examples of the difficulties of old people in working-class homes. I was brought up in a house in a slum, and there is nothing about poverty that any hon. Member can tell me which I do not know personally. I lived in a house in a slum for 15 years of my life, and I know that life for most working people is one long struggle from birth to the grave. Every moment of their life is lived in an atmosphere of insecurity, with no hope that in their old age there will be any provision to meet the most difficult time of life. I was wondering whether, this afternoon, we were going to get something that would offer to the workers some feeling of security for their latter days, and it is with great pleasure that I second the Amendment, having regard to the speech that was made by the Prime Minister. My right hon. Friend spoke with natural pride of the great interest that his illustrious father had taken in this question, and it must have been a great pride to him to be able to refer to that. There is one particular pleasure to me as a Liberal—[An Hon. Members "An ex-Liberal."] I am still a Liberal. It is a great pride to me to think that a Liberal Government was the first Government in this country to put on the Statute Book an Act dealing with old age pensions. I cannot help thinking that it is a real tragedy that there should be the necessity for this Debate. When I think of the fact that, in spite of the potentialities of production, the marvellous gifts of nature to man, and the scientific development in the world, we have to come and argue, in the year 1939, whether we can afford to give to old people a sum that will keep them away from the public assistance committee, I feel that it is a grave reflection upon humanity.Upon the Government.
Not upon the Government. No one would say for one moment that the responsibility for all that is happening in the world lies either on one side of the House or the other. Let us forget politics for a moment—
The hon. Member says that the Government are in no way responsible for the circumstances of the world to-day. Does he not realise that the Government were in power for nearly nine years prior to there being any vast expenditure on rearmament?
Yes, but I realise also that if there is one man in the world who has tried to bring peace it is the Prime Minister. That is the reason I stand on this side of the House. I make no apology for giving my allegiance to a man who has sought peace untiringly for years.
And never found it.
To say that the Government are responsible for the condition of the world is to mix prejudice with principle. I want to pay this tribute to the Government. They have provided, in the Budget for 1939–40, a sum of £285,000,000 for social services, in spite of the tremendous responsibilities which they have in regard to rearmament. It is a spendid tribute, not only to the stability of the country, but to the wonderful work done by the Government, that they are able to raise that amount in such a difficult time. I do not believe it is possible for a working man with an ordinary wage to make adequate provision for his old age. If a working man is to save up to provide enough for his old age, he has to lead a miserable existence, a life of self-denial, and very often a life with the pleasure taken out of it.
I am convinced that the present pension scheme in itself is inadequate. We have been told time after time that only 10 per cent, of the old age pensioners have to make application to the public assistance authorities for assistance. I submit that that is no test of need, for we all know that scores of old people have to break up their own homes and go to live with their sons and daughters, owing to the inadequacy of the present pension. That causes any amount of trouble, and it hurts the pride of the old people, in the last days of their lives, to have to go to live with others, no matter how near and dear they may be. Moreover, it must be remembered that part of their need is often met by contributions from members of the family. That impoverishes the members of the family and prevents them from making adequate provision for their old age. I suggest that when we talk about only 10 per cent, requiring assistance, we ought not to leave out of account the people who have to break up their homes or to receive assistance from members of the family. Another point I want to make about the present scheme is that it is wasteful in that it forces the pensioners to remain at work. I believe—and I must say that I do not quite agree with the Prime Minister on this point—that more than 90 per cent, of the people who reach the age of 65 would retire from work if they had the means of doing so. I think there is not the slightest doubt about that. Hundreds of thousands of people remain at work while they are drawing pensions because the pensions are not sufficient to enable them to retire. We have to ask ourselves whether we can provide adequate pensions. Is the productive capacity of our economic system so low that we cannot assure means of existence for the old folk? I do not believe that is so. The world does not believe it is so. What is being done at the present time? The world does not manage its economic system on the right lines. It restricts production and limits output. I think the very fact that we are doing those things gives the lie to the statement that our economic system cannot provide an adequate pension for the old folk. This is an age in which science has given to us a productive capacity beyond our dreams of 50 years ago. It is true that we employ that capacity to destroy one another rather than to help one another; but in spite of that, I still think we can do more than we are doing. The hon. Member for East Birkenhead (Mr. White) mentioned a national superannuation scheme. I can say that I have not fought a single election without mentioning a scheme of that kind. I have always believed that there should be a contributory national superannuation scheme. In such a scheme, I would make no exceptions; I would include everybody, irrespective of income. It is a strange reflection on our mentality that we give pensions at 65 to those people who have security of employment, who are not subject to the vagaries of the weather, that is to say civil servants and municipal servants. In all these superannuation schemes there is an obligation to retire at the age of 65. Are we then to say to the workers who have no security of employment, and who often work short time because of bad weather, that not only shall they receive no adequate pension but, through rates and taxes, they must contribute to those who already have security. Another thing I should like to see is the co-ordination of the existing schemes. I believe there must be a tremendous waste of money in administration because of the different funds and the different sources of contributions. I have had eight years in this House, and one of the difficulties we have as Members of Parliament is in dealing with the little snags and all the red tape that seem inseparable from all these schemes. You have a separate fund for pensions, a separate fund for this, and a separate fund for the other, and I would like the Government, if they have time before they complete this review, to consider whether a huge amount would not be saved if there were some co-ordination. What is in my mind is this—although I confess I have not thought it out very closely, and it may not be possible, I would like to see one stamp on a card covering health insurance, unemployment insurance, and old age pension—everything. I would like it to be made impossible for anybody to lose his benefits simply because he has not observed a certain little rule, which probably he did not know anything about. I believe that a simplified scheme of that kind, coupled with compulsory contributions, would bring about a tremendous improvement in the social services. I have read practically every pamphlet on this subject that has been issued during the last few years. There is no time to examine the figures given in the Labour party's pamphlet. There are weak points in it, but I think that it is a real attempt to meet a serious problem. I do not think for one moment that it is inspired by electioneering calculations. It was brought out more than a year ago, and I have read it from cover to cover several times. One thing I would like to say to the Prime Minister is that he should not run away with the idea that working people are not prepared to pay for better pensions. I believe that if you could say to the worker, particularly to the women folk, who are the Chancellors of the Exchequer of the working men's homes, that at 65 there would be an adequate sum given to them to enable them to look the world in the face, there would be no difficulty whatever in getting them to make an adequate contribution week by week. The amount mentioned in the Labour party's pamphlet is 1s. a week for each male and 9d. a week for each female. Let the Government have courage and call upon the working people to make those payments; there would be no difficulty about that, provided they got the benefit as well. There was one point which the Prime Minister mentioned this afternoon where I think he is wrong, if I may say so. That was where he questioned whether it was fair to ask a particular contributor to pay such a sum as would cover not only his own benefit but part of somebody else's. I say that the workers are prepared to help one another; they are not only willing to pay for what they themselves are to get, but they are willing to pay a flat rate that would cover somebody else's benefit. If I may say so to the Front Bench, no insurance is based upon an absolute certainty. If I live long enough I shall lose on my own life assurance; on the other hand I have a sense of security, because I know that when I am in need, or when those whom I may leave behind are in need, provision has been made for the time of need. The workers will not worry if they have to pay into a scheme more than they get out. There is nothing in that particular argument. I would like to see a tripartite scheme in which the Government, the employer and the worker are concerned. The worker would have a load of anxiety lifted from his mind, the employer would have a more contented worker because he was relieved of anxiety, and the State would fulfil the purpose of its existence, because you would create a happy and contented nation. I think it is possible to raise £28,000,000 or £30,000,000 a year to cover a scheme of this kind. It would give security to the old folks, it would take old people out of industry, it would remove, the stigma of relief, while a certain amount of employment would be provided for the younger people. I believe that trade would benefit, because there would be an increased velocity of trade; there would be a saving to the rates and —more than all these things—such a scheme would give happiness to millions of people. I believe the nation desires it and would willingly pay for it. I should like to mention one particular class which I think deserves special attention, and that is the spinsters. In the textile areas particularly we know what it is to see spinsters of 55 and over going to their arduous duties morning after morning in all kinds of weather, when they have reached the age when they are physically incapable of carrying on. I would like the Government to see whether they can do something to relieve them of what is a terrible burden. In conclusion, I want to thank the Prime Minister for giving us proof that something is going to be done on behalf of pensioners in general. No one on the opposite side can deny that ever since the right hon. Gentleman entered public life—right away from his municipal days in Birmingham until this day—his name has been associated with the provision of social services. The fact that since the National Government came into power those social services have been increased by more than £30,000,000 is a great tribute to the financial stability which they created and their sincere desire to make the lot of the ordinary people in this country brighter and happier.7.12 p.m.
My hon. Friends above the Gangway have agreed among themselves only to speak for ten minutes, and I hope that any hon. Member who thinks that I ought to reply to him at length will forgive me for not attempting to do so. As one of the specially favoured ancients—I am in good health and I am able to enjoy a reasonable living—I wish to say a few words on behalf of the hundreds of thousands, including tens of thousands in my own area, who cannot enjoy the relief from penury and destitution that I am able to enjoy. There has been a great deal said to-night about the fact that people are living longer to-day than they used to do. When they did not live as long as they do to-day, there was still fearful poverty and dreadful want in the country. Neither the Prime Minister nor any other speaker except the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down has attempted to put the real economic position. That position is that the smaller population of this country in the future will be able to produce infinitely more than the larger population in days gone by. The only thing that people are afraid of with regard to the decline in population is that there will not be enough men for fighting wars.
The hon. Gentleman who moved the Amendment spoke of the large number of men who were going to be killed and lost to us if another war came. I want to say that we are suffering to-day in this country—and in this House—owing to the enormous number of young men who were destroyed in the last War. The one thing that will destroy civilisation is this perpetual slaughtering of the youngest and the brightest and best of the community, and you will never get over that until you do very much more than is being done in relation to international affairs. Although it is true that there is all this tremendous expenditure of which we have heard, I would commend to the notice of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who is to reply to this discussion, a statement made in another place to the effect that the vaults of the City of London are chock full of money waiting to be used, and that to raise this £500,000,000 is something which the right hon. Gentleman would take in his stride. I am only quoting that because the speaker is an authority on finance and on matters connected with the City. In regard to the question of the ability of the country to pay, I do not look upon what we are asking for as something which is impossible. That brings me to this point: The Motion and the Petitions which have been brought into the House are for the purpose of impressing upon the House the fact that we want something done now—not next year, or in another Budget, but at this moment. I am not one of those who think that the present method of dealing with the social services is perfect. I believe that one of these days there will be a system under which the social services will be dealt with as a whole. Other people take another view of it, but that is not the question. This is where I disagree with the Amendment on the Paper. We want something done now and I desire to emphasise that fact. We do not take at its face value the Prime Minister's statement that it is impossible now. We believe that it would be possible to-morrow, by Resolution of this House, to take every old age pensioner away from the Poor Law for good and all.That is in my Bill.
I did not know that the hon. Member had a Bill. The point I am making is that if we care to do this we have the means to do it now, and I do not want to be fobbed off by statements about what ought to be done under what is called "a long-range policy."I hate thosewords, because they are generally used to cover up a multitude of iniquities. When we are told that this is a short-term policy and that the other is a long-term policy, it generally means that you have a long way to go before you get anything. As I say, I do not want to be fobbed off in that way. What I want to keep the House pinned down to is that we want this now, and we shall not be satisfied until we get it.
I want to say something to the old age pensioners themselves, because they in their turn will have a great deal to say to hon. and right hon. Gentlemen about this matter. I am sorry that the Prime Minister is no longer in his place. He once said from that Box in reply, I think, to John Wheatley and myself and others that the Poplar guardians were in the position of making promises, and that unfortunately they had the power to carry them out. I am thankful to think that nowadays we can bring the problem of the unemployed and the problem of the old age pensioner right here to the Floor of this House, and the old age pensioners know that this House has subsidised almost every great industry in the country. They know that the present Minister of Agriculture was, almost overnight, lifted from the back benches and placed on the Treasury Bench because the farmers were in revolt against the Government. I do not like the idea that we should get all classes into the position of requiring "bread and circuses,"as we are often told was the demand in ancient Rome, but nowadays everybody who wants to get his nose into the State nosebag has only to be unpleasant enough in the constituencies and he will be listened to by the Government. The case of the farmers is a special case in that regard. I would say to the old age pensioners, and to the spinsters as well, to keep on pressing their demands. They have moved the Government a little. This is the first stage which always takes place in connection with these matters—the stage of inquiry and so forth. The Prime Minister thinks he has not moved. I think he has moved from the position taken up by him in his letter to the hon. Member for East Birkenhead (Mr. G. White). This is the first step and I do not think it would have been taken if it had not been for the agitation of the old age pensioners and the spinsters. I hope they will keep up the pressure until the Government definitely takes this business in hand and provides them with proper pensions. Somebody has talked about Is. a day. I think it was the Deputy Leader of the Opposition who quoted some learned person as saying that 7s. a week was enough for food. [Hon. Members: "Sir John Orr."] Well, he is a learned doctor or a learned something. Anyhow he is taken as an authority on such matters. But fancy, a shilling a day. When I go into the tea room and have an orange, some cream, some bread and butter and some tea, before I know where I am I have spent eighteen pence. That is for me at my age, and that is for one meal. How much does it cost most of us if we go into the dining room to lunch or dine? I think really and truly it is an absolute outrage for anybody like me or like any of us in this House to dare to stand up and say that a shilling a day is anything like enough to provide the ordinary food for an ordinary human being to live upon properly. I am a person who, for my sins, does not smoke. I do not drink, I do not go to the cinema and I do not go to races. I have never got any money. Money and I come little into contact. I do not know whether it is a case of a fool and his money being soon parted. I do not value money, but I do know the value of food, and I know the need for food, and I know the need for a little comfort. I know also that we here ought to be ashamed of ourselves to talk about a shilling a day for food, with two or three shillings over being enough for these people. We ought to be ashamed to talk abut the matter in those terms at all. I am sick of reading documents in which people talk about this, that and the other sort of vitamins in food. How many of us ever think of what vitamins are in what we eat? We eat and we drink what we like, and we enjoy it. I am speaking here not only for the social class but for the age class to which I belong. I speak for the men and women who have not had the advantage which I have enjoyed, of living a life in which I have never been hungry. I have never lived in a slum but my home was just outside one? I know all about slums. I have lived among people who led very hard and penurious lives from the time they were born until the day they died. It is because I have been lifted out of that kind of life, because of some reason, I have been given the health and the strength to keep going; it is because I have had the advantage of coming to this place and of enjoying a decent living, that I want these old people, at least to be relieved of the necessity of going to the poor-law and of being subjected to all the inquisitions of the poor-law. It is for those reasons that I want them, at least, to get day by day decent, wholesome, supplies of food and decent clothing and shelter and some real comfort and joy in their declining years.7.26 p.m.
Every Member on this side of the House who represents an industrial constituency will be grateful to the Opposition for having provided the opportunity for this Debate. We in this House have been preoccupied for months past with armaments and foreign affairs. Meanwhile, in our constituencies the topic of outstanding domestic interest has been this subject of pensions. We all know, to whatever party we belong, that the people are determined that the present basis of our pension system shall be amended. I have had opportunities of speaking to many hon. Members on the subject, and I have recently placed on the Order Paper, with more than 200 of my colleagues on both sides of the House, a Notice of Motion calling upon the Government to consider a revision of the pensions schemes with a view to their extension and improvement. I have found on both sides of the House the same feeling, that something must be done. I think I can speak also for my colleagues on the Government back benches when I say that I am gratified by the speech of the Prime Minister. It showed that he is approaching this problem in the spirit which we should expect of him. He has promised an immediate inquiry and an early report and I trust that when we return after the Summer Recess, we shall hear from him proposals which will do a measure of justice to those unhappy people who are to-day living on the poverty line.
I had hoped to deal at some length with this subject but I am told that so many Members desire to take part in the Debate that we should impose upon ourselves a self-denying ordinance. I will therefore refer only briefly to one or two of the main points which my hon. Friends and I had in mind when we placed on the Order Paper the Notice to which I have referred. First, may I say something regarding the claim of the spinsters to special consideration. Our Notice of Motion read as follows:The recent report of the Committee on Pensions for Unmarried Women has confirmed many of us in the opinion that these women have established a moral claim to special consideration. With pensions at 55, thousands who are no longer able to follow any employment would be saved from the necessity of immediate resort to public assistance. Evidence of the fact that women cannot match the endurance of men in the labour market, is shown in connection with voluntary pensions. We have the outstanding example of the nurses, who in their own scheme fixed 55 as the age when women should seek retirement. I believe the public conscience will not allow the fate of these spinsters to be decided by mere actuarial argument. The fact cannot be ignored that while you have 175,000 insured unmarried women at the age period 55–65, only 61,000 qualify for pensions benefit, and the remainder pass out of insurance owing to physical, industrial or domestic circumstances. It seems almost a catastrophe that these women should be left in a position in which they have nothing to look forward to except public assistance. I will pass at once to the famous letter addressed to the hon. Member for East Birkenhead (Mr. White) by the Prime Minister. That letter caused quite a shock among many of the Prime Minister's faithful supporters in many parts of the country. Here, we know how the Prime Minister is occupied with the vast burden of responsibilities which monopolise his time and make it difficult for him perhaps to turn aside and deal with these questions, but it did seem to many of us that the atmosphere of that letter was much more like the Treasury than the Prime Minister as we understand him, and it was a good thing to hear to-day the humane spirit in which he approached this problem, the spirit of sympathy and understanding which those of us who know him best believe always characterises him when the betterment of the people is concerned. I think the outstanding offence in that letter was the paragraph which stated that the proof that no further assistance over 10s. was required was to be found in the fact that only 10 per cent, of the pensioners had to apply for public assistance. I believe that figure to be entirely misleading. It is only by the magnificent family benevolence, those who are still in employment contributing and those who have small savings in the bank also contributing, that the old age pensioners and the unemployed have been able to carry on through all this difficult period. It is thus that they are able to keep their pride and avoid accepting assistance from public funds. I know case after case where this has happened. I have sometimes heard it said that we must not increase pensions, because, if we do, we shall kill the spirit of thrift. That is an absurd claim, which is disproved by all the evidence at our disposal. In the Blackburn savings bank, when pensions were first started, our people had £1,000,000. To-day, with old age pensions and unemployment pensions and after years of sheer distress, the deposits amount to £6,000,000. We have 58,000 depositors to-day in that savings bank alone, with an average balance of £102. If that is not evidence of thrift, and if that does not suggest where the money comes from to assist the old age pensioners, the sons and daughters helping the old people and so on, if it does nothing else, it shows what an element of stability those thrifty people must be in this country. I would like to quote one other example. The Prime Minister himself noticed the pride and independence of the working people in our part of Lancashire. The Prime Minister told us that on inquiry, before his recent visit to Lancashire, he found that hundreds of men and women worked in mills on short time for less money than they could get by drawing unemployment benefit for themselves and their families. I think that is a fair demonstration of the self-respect of those workers. The prime Minister himself said that this was"That this House would welcome revision of the amount and conditions of existing pensions with a view to their extension, and urges the Government to take into special consideration the claim of spinsters for their pensions at an earlier age."
I am thankful to know that the needs of the old people among the community are going to be carefully examined by the Prime Minister during the coming Recess, and I feel confident that we may look forward to substantial assistance for them as a result of his inquiries. We all know the vast expenditure involved in our scheme of rearmament and the need for us to make sure that all our resources are liquid and available for any emergency that may arise. We also know that our great duty is to see to it that we can secure and continue the existing social services. They must never be imperilled again as they were imperilled in 1931. But having considered these responsibilities and realised them, I think we are entitled to consider very generously the needs of the people to-day. Twice in 25 years we have had to equip this country for a European war. One war was fought, another still threatens. We have had more than our share of adversity, and I am not prepared to worry too much about the financial conditions that will confront my grandsons 30 years hence. We are doing our bit, and we have done our bit. Therefore, although I am a great champion of financial rectitude, I hope the Prime Minister will not be too severe in considering what he is justified in doing for the improvement of our pension scheme. I hope that from this side of the House there will come thanks to the Prime Minister for the encouragement which he has given us to-day, and a message that we hope that he will take his courage in both hands so that the hardships that exist, the privations that so many of the old people have to face, may be relieved by the action that he will take."an exhibition of quiet heroism, for it is nothing loss than that, that does make one feel, if one did not feel it before, that they are people who are worthy of any effort we make to help them in their distress."
7.39 p.m.
The speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Blackburn (Captain Elliston), who has just sat down, as well as the speeches of the Mover and Seconder of the Amendment, have to a very large extent justified the action of the Opposition in introducing this Motion. It is difficult to remember the terms of the Amendment, but your Deputy, Mr. Speaker, said that it did not limit in any way the scope of the discussion. Consequently, I will not attempt to follow up the terms of the Amendment, except to say that in so far as this inquiry that has been suggested by the Prime Minister is concerned, I stress the hope that the inquiry will be immediate and that the result will be forthcoming, if not within a week, at least immediately we return to this House, because we believe that the plight of the old people is of such a character that it cannot stand any delay.
In rising to give expression to a few thoughts on the subject now before the House, the first thing that I would say is that I am surprised, and I regret, that a question of this character, full of human and domestic pathos for the old people, should ever become a matter of party controversy and should need a Vote of Censure for the purpose of pressing the urgency of the matter upon the attention of the Government to do something in connection therewith of a monetary character. It is not, in my opinion, necessary to expatiate on the economic conditions of many of our old age pensioners. We all know many very hard cases. We do not need to search for them. I think that is recognised by Members in all parts of the House. We know that many seek public assistance to eke out a meagre existence. That seems to be to be in itself a degradation which old age pensions were supposed, and in their origin were meant, to obviate. Our respect and regard for old age are not obvious by an additional offer in support of old age pensions which is neither more nor less than Poor Law relief. The self-respect of the old age pensioners is not enhanced, and their gratitude to the nation is not retained, if the assistance given by an old age pension does not continue to provide sufficient sustenance to prevent the indignity of having to go to charitable organisations for further help to provide the absolute necessities which alone keep body and soul together. If the pension is not enough to provide adequate sustenance and comfort, the old age pensioners might as well get all they need from public charity, which, as we all know, whether the amount be much or little, is often grudgingly and sometimes degradingly given. In any case, the amount given from public charity, or from a pension and public charity combined, costs no more to the nation as a whole, but it equally destroys the sense of self-respect and the feeling of personal independence which should be theirs after a long life of self-supporting labour. If war should come upon us in the near future one of the first things the Government would do would be to impose a system of rationing upon the nation. If for the safety of the nation at a time of reduced food supplies it becomes imperative that before anyone has too much all should have enough to sustain them, the same principle should be operative in peace time. If it can be carried out in war time, under whatever difficulties and at whatever cost, it should be still more easy, with the abundant supplies at our disposal, to carry it out and at less cost, in peace time on behalf of the veterans of industry and the mothers of the conscripts present and future who find themselves reduced, through no fault of their own, to a life of exiguous sustenance and possibly dire poverty and distress. Recently in the public Press and in this House, and also in the speech of the Prime Minister to-day, much concern has been expressed about the falling birth rate and the threatened decline in the total population of this country. I think those fears are to a large extent exaggerated. It may be possible, but I do not think it probable for many long years to come. In spite of all our war losses and our motoring and aeroplane deaths the population of this country is greater to-day than it was in 1914. But surely the welfare and comfort of those who are alive is a matter of no less importance and urgency than the encouragement of the procreation of those yet unborn. I for one think that before we talk about increasing the population we should look after those we already have. In any case I do not think a decreasing population need worry us so long as we are unable to find useful work for the healthy and the efficient among the unemployed during peace time. If a decline in the birth-rate is to be prevented some assistance in addition to National Health Insurance maternity benefit must be provided in the form of family allowances and housing amenities. That may be very necessary and right, but it does not absolve us from our responsibility for the economic protection of those who have already produced the workers in our factories and workshops, our offices and mines, not to speak of those who compose the Army, the Navy, and the Air Force. As has already been said, many young men and women assist their own folk and cannot, therefore, afford to marry, or, if they do, must keep their families from increasing for monetary reasons. So far I have referred to those who receive non-contributory pensions, that is, those of 70 years of age and upwards. There are those who receive a contributory pension at 65 and as a result are discharged from their employment. To very many of these what I have already said applies with equal force. I now gather that there is a suggestion to increase the payments by the State, the employer and the worker in order to secure bigger contributory pensions at 65. To that, personally, I have no objection, but if that is going to be done I should like to make a suggestion to those who will have to consider the matter and be responsible for a solution of the problem. For myself I think it is quite wrong to force mentally alert and physically fit people out of employment at 65 years of age, and still more wrong to do it on an insufficient pension. I have no doubt that the Prime Minister, when he introduced the contributory principle, hoped that many of the workers would give up work at 65 and thus reduce the volume of unemployment. Perhaps many have done so, but he and the Government must be aware that many have remained at work because their wages were too small, and it had been impossible for them to save anything out of their wages to ensure a comfortable old age. Others keep at work because, in the absence of some other kind of work, even if unpaid, or the absence of a hobby, cessation of work means to them a sentence of earlier death. To live long one must have not only a fit body but an active mind, and the mind is the more important of the two. I have seen that demonstrated time and again during trade union experience. A retiring workman, even one with decreased fitness for regular employment, but with a hobby which supplied a measure of mental and physical pabulum, has lived to enjoy his pension or, as we in the trade union movement call it, his superannuation for many long years. On the other hand, an otherwise healthy, physically fit, vigorous person whose only mental and physical exercise and interest has been his daily work has rusted, cracked-up and died in a very short time —physical fitness, energy and industrial experience cancelled, wasted, lost to the benefit of the community. I would make this suggestion in connection with the inquiry which is to be undertaken, and which I trust will be an inquiry which will not prevent old age pensioners getting some speedy relief: The pension should not only be greater for the increased contribution on condition of voluntary retirement at the age of 65, but the pension should be increased for each year after 65 that retirement is deferred, up to 70 years of age. A man at 65, physically fit and mentally alert, who wants to continue at his work has as much right to do so as I have to be in this House to-night. If he does not retire until he is 66 he has saved the community £26. If he got an extra 2s. pension a week for his extra year's work it would take five years to swallow up the £26; and if he were to work another year and got a greater pension at 67 things would still work in the same way. I sincerely trust that something will be done immediately for the old age pensioner, but I trust we shall not be left with some little thing done now and all the other things forgotten—the case of the spinsters, and other matters which have been referred to to-night. I believe that if something is done on the lines which I have suggested we shall prevent some employers taking advantage of the pension to employ cheap labour and in other ways using the pension as a subsidy for low wages. I do not think the Debate to-day has meant any waste of time on the part of Members of this House, and from the speeches delivered from the other side we on this side get encouragement that Members there will bring pressure to bear on their own Front Bench, to which they have been repeatedly referring this afternoon, in order to get speedy help for the old age pensioners.7.57 p.m.
I count myself fortunate, Mr. Speaker, in having caught your eye as a piece of mature timber amidst the forest of young saplings who have risen around me, and I shall not abuse the privilege by speaking at length. May I congratulate the Prime Minister on the delightful and heartening buoyancy of mind and voice which he has displayed during this Debate? I thought I noted a few omissions from his speech to which I venture to draw attention. They refer primarily to the administration, of the Contributory Pensions Act. I noted no reference to the existing anomalies displayed in referees decisions there under, on, for example, qualification of residence. These anomalies, which is a synonym for injustices, cannot be removed without a modification of the Act. I take, for example, the case of an un-established Government clerk sent to Dublin on behalf of the Ministry of Pensions and told on his return a few years later that as he had not been residing within the United Kingdom he was disqualified under the Act. I broadcast this some months ago in the first Debate on this subject, and I received some 250 letters, the great majority of which dealt with individual hard cases; three out of four related to the question of residence. I hope that such anomalies will be looked into, and I venture to suggest to the Government that a committee of the referees who have been dealing year in and year out with this Act could very quickly summarise the genuine hard cases which might reasonably be altered without going far beyond the framework of the Act.
My second point is the need for greater simplicity in the local administration of the Act. I do not think it is beyond the wit of those concerned to find some more expeditious system. Old people are worried by forms, the inquiries take, perhaps, longer than they need, and I am inclined to think that pension officers are at present overworked. My third point concerns the very heavy lapse rate which the Government actuary has lately reported in the membership of certain approved societies, particularly those which are run as an annex of great commercial assurance companies. The Government actuary reported that the lapse rate in some great societies is three times as great as in approved societies which are run, for example by the trade unions. The Minister of Health recognises that it is a serious question, but says that his Department is too much overworked to make the necessary inquiries. If it continues it would nullify a great deal of the good done by the contributory Pensions Act. It is a small thing to lose medical benefit: it is far worse to forfeit pensions right. There are some hundreds of thousands of lapses every year. The hon. Gentleman who spoke last treated the drop in births rather lightly, but it is a serious factor. I took out the weekly figures for May and June, 1939, as compared with May and June, 1938, for the 126 great towns for which weekly figures are obtainable. That corresponds roughly with the period nine months after last autumn's crisis. There has been a diminution of 4,278 births in those towns during that period. There arc several explanations; the drop may be fortuitous, but it reminds us that if is not merely a question whether there are more people to pay subscriptions. The question is, whether there will be enough young people to provide the services and commodities required by old people beyond work? As to freedom to work the hon. Member for South Bradford (Mr. Holdsworth) pointed out that the Prime Minister had not noted that all municipal and Government employees are compelled to retire at 65. That is true, but they are not compelled to cease to work. That is a real difference. Many of them undertake work of another kind, and I should be very sorry indeed to see inspectors snooping round to find out whether a man had been doing a job of work, which would disqualify him. That is the sort of thing that goes on under approved societies under the National Health Insurance Act. It is necessary there, but it is undesirable when a man has earned a statutory right to an old age pension. Then there is the employer's point of view. The necessity of paying yet larger and yet larger sums in cash before one has earned profits or even sold goods is a very serious matter, and I think the Government should be prepared to consider the imposition of higher tariffs in certain industries to carry the additonal cost of the socal services. It is one way of spreading the burden, which it is going to be exceedingly difficult to carry if we are faced with any large further sum levied weekly in cash before earning profits. It is better to have Income Tax, which is after all on profits than a charge for social services, failure to meet which involves dismantling our machinery and dismissing our employés. One-third of our expenditure on social services is devoted to pensions already. Any increase in that proportion may well be a direct tax upon the production of children to whom we look in due course to maintain us in old age. There are ways and means, I believe, of making economies. When this tyranny is over-past, there will doubtless be another inquisition to see how we can economise. We cannot go back to the axe and the 10 per cent, cuts and the like. We must be more far-seeing than that. I believe we can make great economies now in administration by following, broadly speaking, the sort of line that the Haldane Commission on the reorganisation of Government suggested in 1919. I hold that there should be a Ministry of Pensions and Insurance, which would coordinate under a single roof existing pensions and insurance schemes. There is a vast waste to-day in commercial insurance, and a good deal in Government insurance. Old Age Pensions are worked at an expense ratio of about 6 per cent., National Health Insurance is worked at an expense ratio of 24 per cent., and industrial insurance in the case of commercial companies, at an expense ratio of about 32 per cent. The approved friendly collecting societies are run at an expense ratio of over 40 per cent, and workmen's compensation at 42½ per cent. These are average figures, but there are many approved friendly collecting societies which have an expense ratio of 50, 60 or even 70 per cent. That is pure waste of money. The proof that the mass of working men are willing to pay more may be gathered from the fact that there are now 83,000,000 burial policies out on 30,000,000 lives. Annual premiums total £65,000,000 and of that sum between 30 and 40 per cent, goes in expense of collection, whereas, if it was done by the Government, it could be done for 5 or 6 per cent. I believe that sooner or later we shall have to go back to the system which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) intended when he introduced his insurance scheme, namely, to make burial money an automatic national benefit under National Health Insurance and take over the collection. We could then do the business far cheaper on a universal compulsory basis. There is a saving of £30,000,000 or £40,000,000 at the disposal of the Government if they care to make it universal and compulsory and I think public opinion is very nearly ripe for that. The 26,000 persons employed in this branch of insurance would, of course, have to be compensated. There are insurance funds, the property of holders of the 83,000,000 policies on 30,000,000 lives, totalling £385,000,000. This fund is not the property of the insurance companies or the friendly approved societies, nor is it claimed by them. It is the property of the policy holders. The Government is entitled to take it over and to use it as a reserve not only against burial—against death—but against life policies. I trust that the Government inquiry, which must be rapid, will not exclude a further and much more comprehensive inquiry into the whole question of a general scheme of insurance—and as to the possibility of establishing a Ministry of Pensions and Insurance, with a really good actuarial staff at its disposal, covering the whole range of insurances and, I hope, bringing at least on one card, if not under one stamp, the numerous assurances which we all wish to see and for which the public, becoming daily more and more insurance minded, is now ready.8.9 p.m.
I am sure this Vote of Censure has done good. To begin with, it has revived the spirit of the followers of the Prime Minister. I do not know what effect it will have on the people outside but at least it has served its purpose here to-night. The speeches that I have heard from the other side have rather amused me. They have come along now fulsome in their praise and they are going away with easy minds having thrown flattery right and left. Every one of us agrees that it is more than necessary that there should be an increase in pensions. The Prime Minister astounded me. In the best speech that he has made, from his point of view, though not from mine, he cut to pieces in his own way and sneered at our policy as laid down by the Leader of the Opposition. He seemed to declare that it was impossible to visualise another£40,000,000 or £50,000,000 a year. Is it all lost when it goes to Old Age Pensions? Let me give this example. On Saturday, when I was going away from a great demonstration of Durham miners, I got into the train with an aged miner who was a supporter of the Prime Minister. He was not very helpful to me politically. I put it to him whether he did not feel it necessary to have an increase. I reminded him that he was getting public assistance from the Durham County Council and that he was drawing poor relief from the poorest area in the North of England. He said he could do with it for his clothes. He had that suit for seven years. If he had an opportunity of another 10s. he would have had more than one suit in seven years, and that sort of thing multiplied right through the life of our people would not be lost.
Their desire for independence is still keen. It is one of the most glorious things that I know. They hate to take this cherry at two bites, and it is a miserable cherry at that, to travel from the Post Office to the Public Assistance Committee. They hate Public Assistance. It has been said that we have moved in the matter of pensions since 1908, but the pension of 5s. then was of greater value than 10s. is now. It is rent that has killed the value of the pension in itself. These poor people are paying left for them to live on. In Durham10s. a week rent and there is only 10s. l we tried to help one another long before the pension scheme came in. For old age pensioners, widows and orphans and men on compensation we are paying £412,000 a year, and we have built 2,200 cottages out of the contributions of hard-working miners. We have 4,600 aged people there, sheltered from the rates, the rent collector and everything of that sort. We have done that with the assistance of friends and of working men again and again. We have worked for all sorts of relievement of our people. If a few of us in a distressed area can make that sacrifice the whole country ought to be able to do so. We used to have what is called a Permanent Relief Fund. My hon. Friend the Member for Spennymoor (Mr. Batey) and other Durham friends will agree that we must have spent millions of pounds in relation to that organisation. We had pensions of 5s. a week for men over 60 years of age, and of 5s. for their wives, with 2s. for each child, all out of the coppers of the men themselves. Let hon. Members think what this meant in distressed conditions like that. Many of the men were of poor physique and were working hard and keenly at their work. If they could do that for their fellowmen why cannot a rich nation afford to do it as well as to give subsidies of millions of pounds to rich people who will never need old age pensions at all? I will conclude, because I know that others want to speak and put their constituencies' point of view. I can assure the Prime Minister that we should like to accept his promise of an inquiry, but he makes so many promises and denials and mixes them to such an extent that he may forgive us if we say that we doubt his promise. Nevertheless, we give him this guarantee: This is not a political matter with myself and my friends. Unless he will come along with money and something more valuable than promises, as he has done for ships, farms and in all kinds of subsidies, the people outside will accept nothing but that. If the right hon. Gentleman can give subsidies to those industries, he can give money to the old age pensioners.8.17 p.m.
It is perhaps significant that this Debate is taking place at a time when the country is threatened with formidable dangers in every part of the world, yet this House by general consent is discussing how far and in what way we can improve the position of present pensioners and of those who will become pensioners in the next generation. Perhaps that is symbolic of our determination to defend our liberties and standards and of the abounding faith which we have in the future of our people. Those Members who have not been present during the whole course of the Debate will probably not be aware of what it is that we are discussing at the moment, and therefore, for purposes of greater accuracy, I have obtained from the Whips Office a copy of the Amendment to the Resolution which we are now debating.
I do not wonder that the Government had this Amendment proposed in manuscript form and did not put it on the Paper, because it is ungrammatical and a tepid commendation of the proposal for inquiry into old age pensions. Had it been possible to do so I should have moved an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, but I understand that it would not be called during the Debate, and therefore that has not been possible. Perhaps I am a little more concerned because I did put upon the Paper an Amendment in the name of some of my hon. Friends and myself. I understand why it was not called, but I was rather amused at the reception which it had in the public Press. The "Daily Herald," which is, I believe, capitalist in its structure, but mildly Socialist in its views, said yesterday:When I read that, I thought I was to be cast for a role unusual for me, but still one which, I understand, has very substantial compensations. I was to be the man selected, by a collusive arrangement with the Whip's Office, to move an Amendment satisfactory to the Government, and as a result of that arrangement to find that Motion accepted as the substantive Motion of the day. That called up to me all kinds of dreams as to my political future. I know, of course, that we have high authority for believing that there is more joy in Heaven, and presumably, therefore, in the Whip's room, over one sinner that repenteth than over all those who sit behind the Treasury Bench above the Gangway. I was hoping that when the appropriate fatted calf was killed for this prodigal son I should emerge, if not as an Under-Secretary, at least as a baron. All those dreams have disappeared and all has been filched from me by one of the oldest campaigns of the Government. Even if those agreeable prospects are no longer ready for me, I would like to put certain considerations before the House for a few moments. There is a general realisation, and the Prime Minister gave evidence of it in his speech, that the problem must be dealt with and that there are great hardships. There are also great difficulties, and the only question before us is how to do it and what method we are to adopt. The right hon. Gentleman gave figures, which I will not weary the House by detailing, but the House must not forget them. He was right to insist that we should bear in mind the vastness of the enterprise and the largeness of the figures which these schemes involve. He pointed out also the change in the character of the population and the fact that there was a larger number of older people and a smaller number of young people than 50 or 100 years ago. That fact accentuated the problem which is accentuated also in both directions. A greater burden is created in maintaining the pensioners because, whereas there was a smaller number of old persons 50 or 80 years ago and a larger number of middle-aged or young people who could make contributions to their support, out of ordinary kindness of heart or because of the duty of child to parent, now that cannot be done and a more elaborate scheme is necessary to carry the burden. Otherwise the burden falls upon an attenuated or smaller family. There are some who fear that any new scheme, apart from the immense burden which it would put upon the Treasury, would raise other difficulties. I do not think that the difficulty is purely financial. The full scheme proposed by the Labour party would raise in 40 years, as I understand it, £254,000,000 as the cost of the total scheme, and £194,000,000 of that sum would have to be provided by the Exchequer. Those are formidable figures, but nevertheless, if the national income were to increase at the low rate of only 1 per cent, per annum, it would have risen in that time by £2,000,000,000. I am not going to say that that will arise with a smaller population, but may it not be, with the increase of skill and knowledge, the increased power to use the machine, with all the immense improvements of science, that we can expect, to some extent at any rate, a continuance of the steady rise which we have seen over the past few years? We must not be frightened by figures on the one hand, and we must not, on the other hand, jump to the conclusion that this will come, about as a kind of natural process; we must try to strike a balance. There is also another fear, namely, that an increase in old age pensions, of whatever kind, will reduce the moral responsibility of the people, will have a kind of degrading effect, will, so to speak, pauperise them. I do not believe that that is true; I believe that exactly the opposite is true; and all social workers who have the greatest knowledge of the people believe that the social services have stimulated rather than retarded the saving propensities and thrift of the people as a whole. The Prime Minister did not tell us, of course, and perhaps it was not part of his object to tell us in any detail, either what the proposed investigation would cover or the general lines of the solution; but he did indicate that one of the main questions was what would be the extra contribution that would be required from the employer and from the employed man, and how far the employers and workpeople, through their proper representatives, would express themselves as willing to meet this increased cost. I am very glad he made that point, but relative to it is the question how far they are already meeting the cost for this very purpose. Obviously, their willingness to meet an extra 9d. or Is. a week for a Government scheme must depend, as the last speaker has said, upon how far they are already making contributions, the workmen from their wages or the employers from their own funds, in their own superannuation schemes; and clearly one of the first necessities, before there can be any general advance on a wide basis, is some information on that matter. I have been trying for some months to collect some information upon it. When I put a question a few days ago, asking for some more detailed information, I was told that the information was not available. This only shows that to that extent the inquiry is desirable, because, although it is very difficult to collect information from the different sources available, I believe, from what I have been able to find out, that a large and increasing number of workers are being covered by superannuation or retiring pension schemes of one kind or another, and the figures of the Registrar of Friendly Societies, with whom some information about these schemes has to be lodged, would be available. Of course, however, there is the difficulty that the Registrar, like some others of our great officials, only publishes his report about three years afterwards, and at the moment the latest available report is that for 1936. My feeling, from such researches as I have been able to make, is that there is in every part of industry an increasing movement in this direction. From my own knowledge I can say that every company with which I am connected has some form of superannuation scheme. Therefore, I think the problem is to decide, first, what minimum of anomalies or alleviation of minor points can be made in the existing contributory pensions scheme under the Act of 1937. There are the points which so often come to our notice, such as a. possible reduction of the pensionable age of married women to 60, which would cost about £4,000,000—not a very large sum as we are considering sums now; and there are various tinkerings, as I would call them, for reducing anomalies and increasing benefits under the present scheme. But I believe—and I say this with no desire to avoid the issue, but with a desire to try to find a lasting settlement of this problem on a solid basis—that we are in a position not dissimilar from that which faced the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) when he entered upon National Health Insurance. As has been said by the last speaker, it has always been the experience of this country that these movements are brought about by the people themselves long before the State accepts the obligation. We started education through the churches long before the State thought it its duty to educate our children. We started health insurance through the friendly societies, the trade unions, the companies, and so on, long before the State took it up. Unemployment insurance came along, based upon what the trade unions had done for themselves. All the traditions of this country lead me to believe that we have now a situation which could be dealt with by a bold Minister. He will be entering upon very ticklish ground, but we must remember that the scheme of national health insurance, which is now so much a part of our national social services, was carried by one man, against the doctors, against the friendly societies, against the trade unions, and against the companies. In the first instance it was only by the continual pressure and determination of a man of courage that that great scheme, which we now accept so easily as part of our structure, was carried through. So to-day, in any matter of this kind, there would be great difficulties. The history of social improvement has been that of a search by the working classes for security. That is the one great dividing line between the poor and those whom we choose to call the rich. There is not so much else that divides them. We have a common ideal, we have a common religion, we have common sports. The great dividing line is where the man tries to make himself reasonably secure, whatever happens, of being able to carry on his life and that of his children. It is for that that men have made great struggles in the past. Anyone who looks through our history will find that our fathers and grandfathers fought and worked to get security for their children, and that what they mainly feared was that death or sickness would remove them before they had been able to provide that solid basis for the life of those for whom they cared. There has been a gradual underpinning of the structure of working-class life. We are trying to raise the standards of nutrition; we have health insurance; we have a system of unemployment insurance whereby to some extent the danger attaching to falling out of work is removed. Can we not now, by a combination of all our resources with the work that has been done by men for themselves, make that last contribution to the security of working-class life—provision for an honourable old age after an honourable life of work?"Tory M.P.s who have been worried about squaring their demands for pension reforms with voting for Mr. Chamberlain on the Censure Motion to-morrow have found a way out. … This gives the uncomfortable Tories a perfect let-out from any obligation they might have felt to vote against the Government."
8.34 p.m.
I think I am entitled to say a few words in this Debate, because during the last Session of Parliament I took occasion to introduce a Bill for the increase of pensions to £1 a week. That Bill was reintroduced in the present Session, and I indicated when I first introduced it that I hoped the Government would pay some attention to the need for an increase in pensions when the King's Speech was introduced. The Government did not pay any attention to the advice I gave them on that occasion. I am very glad that to-day all the pressure that has been exerted upon the Government during the years of this Parliament, by hon. Members above the Gangway and by hon. Members on the other side of the House, has resulted in the promise of an investigation with a view to something being done to improve the position. I hope hon. Members will not think that I am being captious when I suggest that the people most responsible for the promise of something to-day are not Members of this House, but the old people who, throughout the country, without any stimulus from any of the political parties, took the initiative themselves in setting up old age pensioners associations, and, in and out of season, pressed for an increase. It became apparent this year that there was a prospect of a general election, and Members of all parties were made to realise that perhaps the question at the election would not be war or peace, but a square deal for the old people and the widows.
I am not in the least satisfied with the Prime Minister's promise. The very carefully-worded Amendment and the words of the Prime Minister were not as encouraging as we might have expected. The words that appear to me to stand out above everything else in the Amendment are: "Without placing undue burdens upon the Exchequer." One of the most shocking things in my experience is the way in which millions can be found for expenditure on munitions and for subsidies for one industry after another, but when it comes to a question of providing for the needs of the people who are living in poverty the Treasury seem to find themselves in an almost impossible situation. This country was represented as being on the verge of bankruptcy in 1931, with the possibility of the pound becoming worth less than one farthing during the election. All this was because there was a debt of over £100,000,000 in connection with the Unemployment Fund. Yet, without any new system of increased production, the country has faced an expenditure of thousands of millions of pounds for alleged protection in the event of war with other countries. Money can always be found for war, but, when it is a case of old people and poor people, you get the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Prime Minister telling you about the possibility that it will put us almost into bankruptcy. I hope the old people will put the proper interpretation upon this Amendment, which will probably be carried to-night. I think the Censure Motion is well justified. Right through the Session the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer have been answering questions on this subject—so many questions that, unless there was some particular new point, questions on the subject would no longer be accepted at the Table—and all the time they said that nothing could be done. To-day the Prime Minister says that something has to be done. Why this discovery at the eleventh hour? It is one of the most discreditable things that has happened in connection with this most discreditable National Government. I hope that the spinsters are going on with their agitation. No less necessary than increased provision for the old people is the provision of pensions for spinsters. I read the report of the committee that inquired into this matter, and learned that the difficulty was all over the arithmetic. But there is a great human question that has to be faced in connection with that matter. I hope they will go on with their agitation in the country, and I am confident that that will help them to get a solution of their problem also. I advise hon. Members in all parts of the House to make sure that the Government do not merely deal with this in a small way. They should be made to understand that the minimum rate of pension should be £1 a week. I hope that the old people outside and their friends in the constituencies will accept nothing less. If they make the demand, I am sure they can get it. Money can be found just as easily for the old people as it can for the instruments of death.8.43 p.m.
I do not propose to speak longer than five minutes. When I came to the House to day it was with the full intention of voting in favour of an increase in old age pension and on this issue against the party to which I belong, and although there was a three-line whip I informed my party Whips that that was my intention; I shall continue to press for increased pensions but I have changed my mind in regard to the Vote of Censure. It would be unfair to censure the Government for two reasons. The first is the promise of my respected leader that he would examine the situation and do something for the aged people. The second is the speech of the Deputy-Leader of the Opposition, who based his criticism upon another of these beautifully-illustrated but deceiving Socialist pamphlets. This booklet, called "Labour's Pension Plan" is a fraudulent prospectus. I now see that if I voted against my Government it might be thought that I believed in this Socialist hotchpotch of misrepresentation and coercion. I say "coercion," because in the very forefront of this pamphlet the £1 a week pension which is dangled before the country is conditioned by the proposal for compulsory retirement, which in my opinion is sheer tyranny. Three hundred old people were turned off from a works in Accrington because they had reached the age of 65. I do not want men to be compelled to retire at that age. They would rather have work and wages than any pension. Therefore because the Labour party's pensions scheme couples with the pension of £1 a week compulsory retirement from all gainful work I oppose their plan with all the energy I possess.
The second thing which convinces me that the "Labour Pension Plan" is a fraudulent and ill-advised proposal, designed for electoral purposes, is the fact that on page 29 of this pamphlet I find these words:Is the Labour party going to pay for all these things and armaments out of taxation?"A Labour Government coming into power in the next few years would inherit a situation in which the State was already providing over £60,000,000 towards the present State Pensions. The proposed Pensions Scheme has been balanced with the rest of the programme of reforms, including further expenditure on education with maintenance allowances, nutrition, health services, improved conditions for the unemployed, rehabilitation of the distressed areas, etc. Further, the cost of armaments would be met out of taxation rather than by loan."
Certainly.
How could they find the expenditure on armaments this year alone, plus all other social services out of revenue? The miracle of Moses bringing water out of a rock would be nothing in comparison with the miracle of the scheme proposed by hon. Members opposite. The expenditure on armament this year is £750 millions. How can that be met out of taxation? The second thing that convinces me that I was making an error in voting against the Government was the fact that the same right hon. Gentleman, who was so eloquent in proposing what the Government should now do, was a party to the alluring but deceptive publications dealing with pensions. These were issued in 1929 by the party now sponsoring this Vote of Censure. One was called "Labour's appeal to the nation," It calls attention to the "grave injustices that exist in regard to widows and orphans and old age pensions, and says that they should be immediately remedied. What did the right hon. Gentleman say when the time came for him to implement his pledge? This is what he said at the Socialist Party Conference in 1930 when a Resolution was carried demanding pension at £1 a week at 60:
He also said that "unless they had unlimited money they were bound to have regard to priority of claim and consider the National Health Insurance scheme, the Unemployment Insurance scheme and the work of the social services, and they had to fill up a very large number of holes not merely amongst the aged but to help the young and middle aged." Notice those words, "not merely amongst the aged." I regard the helping of the aged people as of primary importance. I will not support a party who promised to remedy the grave injustices to the old age pensioners and then when it was in office did nothing, and now comes with more deceptive schemes. I believe in increased pensions for the old folk but I do not believe in the Socialists plan. Lastly I have changed my mind because the Prime Minister has promised that he will deal with this matter of old age pensions speedily. It took three years for the Labour party to come to any decision, and although they were pressed by the various trade councils they kept putting it off, and when they came into office nothing was done for the old age pensioners, although they were pledged to deal immediately with the injustices to the old age pensioners, who trusted them and who voted for them. The Socialist leaders said that "The Labour party gives an unqualified pledge to deal with this question," but they broke their pledge. Having explained the reason why I am not going into the opposition Lobby, I beg the Government at once to lift out of Poor Law relief these veterans of industry who deserve well of their country. Old age pensions must be increased. I know we are spending £50,000,000 more on social services than the Labour Government spent during their term of office, but we must continue to do more for the aged. The only chance that the old age pensioner has is to be found in the continuance of the National Government. The hon. Gentleman spoke of what was said about the decline of the value of the pound if we went off the Gold Standard and pointed out that this had not happened. The pound unanchored to gold would have declined to a very low figure if the Labour party continued their disastrous Government in 1931."He was glad to hear that he had got a generous heart, but a generous heart did not suffice, for in a matter of that kind they must have regard to a lot of other forms of social expenditure which were pressed just as zealously then as now."
I did not say that. I quoted the statement that was made by hon. Members opposite at the election. The hon. and gallant Member must not put it down to me.
I do not want to do the hon. Member an injustice, but what is often forgotten is that the wonderful restoration of confidence which enabled us to do more social service than any previous Government was due to the fact that the whole world had confidence in the National Government, including thousands of former members of the Labour party who rallied to our support and put us into office and who will do so again at the next election. I hope that there will be a speedy inquiry into this question. I believe the word of the Prime Minister will be carried out to the letter; his promise was made on the Floor of this House and was not one given to a trade union congress or something like that. The promise is made on behalf of the party which is in power, and which, I believe, will continue in power. As a Member of the National Government, and one who is loyal to his chief, I believe that the spinsters, the widows of uninsured workers and the old age pensioners will receive a square deal from the only Government that can give confidence to industry to expand and produce the money to pay for increased pensions to old people.
8.52 p.m.
It is gratifying to hear in the Debate that has taken place to-day on the important question of old age pensions a new note in comparison with that which characterised the previous Debate on the same subject. I particularly welcome it when I remember the attitude that has been taken up by the Government in respect to this question. I do not know whether it is the pressure of public opinion that has converted the Tory Members in this House, or whether it is the approach of an early General Election, but certainly to-day there is this new trend of thought and a new spirit in the argument from the opposite side of the House. We are evidently all agreed that there is a need for an increase in old age pensions—that the working classes have a struggle to live right from the cradle to the grave, but they have to face insecurity and unemployment, and have a struggle to live on the miserable wages which the average working-class man and woman receive from industry, and they are never able to save for their old age. The Debate to-day has shown that we all believe the pensioners are decent old folk, and that we ought to do everything we can to try and help them to get a better standard of life and greater comfort in their old age. We have not had to appeal to-day to those who would say that a pension of 10s. was sufficient. I have not heard that argument to-day, but if there is anybody who thinks that 10s. is sufficient, he ought to try the experiment of living on it for several weeks and see exactly what it means.
The Prime Minister in his statement seemed to infer that it was a terrible thing to suggest that elderly people of 65 years of age should retire at that age if they had an adequate old age pension—a pension of 35s. a week for man and wife. From my experience of the working class —I belong to the working class and am proud of it; the only aristocracy that is worth bothering about is the aristocracy of labour—I know that there are thousands of aged people who would be very willing to retire from industry if they could be sure of that old age pension. It would put a stop to a practice which is very prevalent in some parts of the country where unscrupulous employers directly a man reaches 65 take advantage of his pension and deducts it from his wages. We all know of cases of that kind. The Prime Minister congratulated the Leader of the Opposition on the tone of his speech, but said that that tone did not prevail in the by-elections. I know something about the speeches of Tory candidates in by-elections on this question. I know of the instruction from the Tory head office on the question of propaganda for old age pensions. I know of one Tory candidate who never misses an opportunity of attacking the Labour Member of Parliament, who pleaded for old age pensions long before he became a Member of this House. That Tory candidate never loses an opportunity of attacking the Labour party scheme, and yet when he speaks on old age pensions he goes one better than the Labour party and advocates a higher scale for the aged people. We hear the gibe that Members on this side of the House are exploiting the old age pensioners for electioneering purposes. We can throw that gibe back to Tory candidates, because some of them are promoting private petitions—not the petitions of the Old Age Pensions Association—and bribing old age pensioners in order to get signatures, so that the Tory candidates and the Tory party can get a boost out of this question. We all know of the Government's consistent opposition to any increase in old age pensions. If hon. Members doubt that statement, they can look at the history of the question and the way it has been treated by the Government in recent months. I can give chapter and verse in regard to it. The Labour party has no need to be ashamed of its record in regard to old age pensions. Certainly, I am not ashamed of the part which the Labour Government, despite the fact that it was in a minority, took in regard to this question. When Labour took office in 1924 no person aged 70 or over could get an old age pension if the income limit exceeded 10s. a week. The Labour Government raised the income limit to 25s. for one person and 50s, for a married couple. The thrifty man or woman and the trade unionist drawing superannuation benefited. Over 63,000 persons had their pensions increased, and 170,000 new pensions of 10s. a week were granted. The Pensions (Increase) Act, 1924, provided increases of pensions which were granted prior to 1914. Policemen, postmen, sailors and soldiers, and also men and women drawing pensions from local authorities or the State received an increase of pension at 60, provided their incomes did not exceed £150 a year if single or £200 a year if married. I do not forget that when Labour was again in office, in 1929, but not in power, its first big act was to introduce the Widows', Orphans' and Old Age Contributory Pensions Act, with its substantial gift to the widows of men of the insurable class, that is, men who had died prior to 1926 and never had the opportunity to contribute for pensions for their widows or children. By July, 1930, over 250,000 pensions had been awarded to widows, and before the end of the year an additional 85,000 pensions were issued. Altogether, 500,000 widows received pensions under the Act of 1929. Then there was the grant of old age pensions to 24,000 wives who had been refused pensions because their husbands were over 70 on the 2nd January, 1926. Therefore, I do not think that the Minority Government, such as the Labour Government was, or the Labour party itself, need be ashamed of what Labour did when it was in office. Reference has been made to the declining birth rate. The decline in the birth rate is not due to the fact that married couples fear that if they bring children into the world they may be called upon also to make provision for the aged people of the country. The decline in the birth rate is due to the fear of young married couples about insecurity and the menace of war. A young married couple of to-day say: "Why bring children into the world, when there is so much international tension and when our children may be used as cannon fodder?" We ought to ponder over that and not try to use it as an argument against immediate action being taken on behalf of our aged people. We all admit that the problem of finding the money for the increase of old age pensions is a problem for the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Government. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer would simply follow the principle which all good housewives in this country follow, that of making provision for first things first—food, clothing and shelter—he could solve the problem. My experience as a housewife when I had a very limited income was that I had to do what so many thousands of working-class wives have to do, I had to sit down with a list and mark off the things that did not come first and to secure for our family the essentials of life as adequately as possible. As a practical housewife, and we housewives are the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the homes—I give that hint to the Chancellor of the Exchequer of this country. I will not read a lot of figures, but it is interesting to note that the cost of an increase in old age pensions would be less than the cost of a battleship, less than the "compassionate grants" which have recently been made to foreign countries, and much less than the subsidies which have been given to wealthy industrialists, without the imposition of a means test. I, too, am interested in the problem which has been raised by several speakers this evening, that of wealth productivity. We know that wealth productivity has increased by leaps and bounds, and economists tell us that we are only at this moment touching the fringe of the question. If we could get down to this problem I am certain that wealth productivity would be sufficient for the needs of the community and would certainly guarantee an increase in old age pensions. I believe with Ruskin that there is no true wealth but life. What we ought to do is to readjust our finance and follow a better foreign policy which will enable us to spend our money in the preservation of human life. At any rate, I plead, as I have pleaded on hundreds of platforms throughout the country before I came to this House, for greater comfort for our old folk in the evening of their lives. We profess to be a Christian country, and to my mind the essence of Christianity is to care for the weak and the aged. I would appeal to all hon. Members to do their best by voting for the Labour Motion, and see if we cannot speedily remove this scandal, this shame, from the fair name of our country that our old people should have to struggle and live, many thousands of them, in a state of semi-starvation. If we could do that I am certain we should bring happiness into the homes of our people and that the aged folks would feel that after they have worked hard all their lives and helped to create the wealth, they are entitled to a fair share of the good things which they have helped to produce.9.8 p.m.
I think we owe a certain debt of gratitude to the last two or three speakers for restoring at least the atmosphere of a Vote of Censure. There was a time when I was seriously afraid that the House was going through that melancholy process of revolving itself into a Council of State, which means that everybody talks platitudes. A revival of an atmosphere of controversy has done no harm, and perhaps the House will forgive me if on this matter of a Vote of Censure I exercise the right of a Government supporter and deal with the Vote of Censure in the obvious way, that is, to rebut the Motion and not to advance any particular scheme of my own. The Prime Minister said, I thought with great generosity, that he felt sure the imminence of an election had nothing to do with the renewal of an agitation for old age pensions. The right hon. Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) said the same thing. They will for- *** give me if I say that they had much kinder hearts than I, for I cannot dissociate the possibility of an imminent election with a sudden recrudescence of this agitation. And it is an agitation which is tolerably well organised.
I received this morning a document purporting to be a signed petition, not from my own constituency but from a neighbouring constituency. It arrived with the rather curious postmark of "Cardiff" although the signatures were alleged to have been got in Birmingham. It admitted that it was an organised petition because it had the signature of the organiser at the bottom of the sheet. There was no concealment. I think the scheme which it suggested would not commend itself to hon. Members opposite, because it proposed to pay for these old age pensions by repudiating 90 per cent, of the National Debt, and that is a form of frenzied finance which I do not think has ever been advocated by any responsible Member of any party. The right hon. Member for Wakefield said that the Opposition had been in the forefront of battle for increased pensions for a long time. I think we have a right to comment that if that is so they have been looking the wrong way. Most of the advance which has taken place, in spite of the endeavour of the hon. Lady to prove that the Labour party have been responsible for most of the Measures which the Conservative party have put on the Statute Book, has been made by the Conservative party. I admit that the Labour party had not a majority in this House, and, therefore, would not have forced their scheme through if they had produced one, but they did not produce a scheme, and therein I think they are very seriously to blame. In 1929 they said that they made no pledges which they could not fulfil. In their efforts not to omit the fulfilment of any of their pledges they started on 3rd July with a scheme of pensions, and put up their Lord Privy Seal to explain the situation as it was then. He said:That is true, but the party opposite claimed that they had considered them; and the Lord Privy Seal went on and wound up with this remarkable statement:"There are many difficulties and many aspects of this question to be considered."
"In other words we are going to do some thinking."—[Official Report, 3rd July, 1929; col. 106, Vol. 229.]
Who was the Lord Privy Seal?
He was Mr. J. H. Thomas, and at that time he was apparently popular with hon. Members opposite. In October of the same year they were still thinking, and in February of the next year they said that various proposals had been considered by the Government but that no practical scheme had yet been devised. That, I think, shows some of the difficulties with which this question of pensions is hedged, and in view of the fact that the party opposite made this extraordinary claim and then, when they were faced with the problem, when they were actually up against the facts, they discovered that they were if 1 may use a classical quotation: Capax imperii nisi imperasset.
Which means?
If hon. Members wish for a translation I will give it. It is quite simple—that the country may still believe that hon. Members opposite are capable of being a Government until they have seen them try. The fact that an election is coming upon us has a great deal to do with this Vote of Censure. Another quotation has been made earlier in the Debate from a very eminent Member of the party opposite, although he does not sit in this House but still exercises a certain influence in their councils, Mr. Bevin, to the effect that he was a little bit tired of going round elections promising things and not being able to fulfil them. I draw the deduction that, as hon. Members opposite are making these promises again, and as they are making them in this magnificent document—
Which is two years old.
—they do not expect to win the next election, and indeed, I believe that the right hon. Baronet the Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir A. Sinclair) was right when he said that they do not want to win the next election. I turn now from the sordid atmosphere of party controversy to the problem of old age pensions.
Before the hon. Gentleman leaves sordid party controversy, I would ask him whether it is likely that, if we expected not to win at the general election, we should offer the party opposite, as a free gift, our propaganda on old age pensions, as we have done?
I am not in the secrets of the organisation of the party opposite, but what I deduce is that any party which introduces a thing like this pamphlet, promising pensions to everybody, including the teddy bear on the cover, cannot be seriously expecting to win the election. What is the problem of old age pensions? It has been adumbrated on both sides, and on both sides there has been reference to the drift in the age limits of our population at the present time. It is a fact which should not be forgotten that in 1965, which is not outside the purview of any hon. Member, for it is only a quarter of a century, which gives many of us a hope of living to see it, there will, if nothing changes in the drift of population, be 36,000,000 people in England and Wales, 8,000,000 of whom are children and 3,500,000 of whom are over 70.
On what is the hon. Member's calculation based?
It is based on a very excellent pamphlet issued by the Fabian Society.
Surely, the hon. Member will agree that those figures are based on the present poverty basis of the population, and that if the population received better social services, there would be more reason for people to bring children into the world.
Even admitting the point which the hon. Member has made, it will still take approximately one year for a child to be born.
The hon. Member's biology is as bad as his economics.
He is 25 per cent. out.
I would remind the hon. Member that I used the word "approximately," and surely, to the Socialist party, 25 per cent, out is dead accurate. The fact remains that, with that number of children and that number of people over 70, and the other deductions which must be made for unmarried women, for the incapacitated and the sick, and for the overheads of a civilised country, about 15,000,000 people will have to endeavour to provide not only for them selves but for 26,000,000 others. That will be a very heavy burden on those people. To my mind, the problem really is not to say how many we can get compulsorily to retire from industry, as hon. Members opposite suggest in their pamphlet—
No.
Hon. Members would give them a violent inducement to retire from industry by providing some attraction to get them to stop working. That is the wrong solution of the problem. We should be concentrating our efforts and our medical services on seeing how it is possible to increase the age of work in proportion to the increase in the expectation of life. The ideal that should be in front of us is to prolong the effective working life of a man to 70 rather than to try to get him out of it at 65
What is the machine doing?
It is true that you can get a certain amount of speeding up of production, but on the other hand, we have found in the past that every time that has been done, the demand has risen with it, and so far the demand has always kept pace with the productivity of the machine, and the population figure has risen. This decline in the birth rate is a new phenomenon with which we have not had to deal before. When the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield said rather broadly that the country's back was always broad enough to bear burdens in the past, he forgot that he was talking of a time when the population was steadily expanding, and not of to-day, when we are facing a movement in the other direction. If that movement is corrected—and this is the point I want to press upon the House to-day—and the birth rate is restored, the problem in about 15 or 20 years from now will, if anything, be worse, although the long-term remedy will be in sight, because, in addition to the aged and the infirm, there will be a very much greater number of children who will have to be supported by those who are still at work.
Is it the hon. Member's contention that an old person should starve to-day because in 25 years time there may be more old persons to starve?
I do not see the relevance of that. I am sorry if I am a little dull in the uptake.
The hon. Member said that in 25 years time there would be more old people to be borne by a smaller proportion of the population. Therefore, he suggests that an old person should starve to-day because in 25 years time there may be more old persons to starve.
I have the most profound respect both for the hon. Member's intelligence and his independence of mind, but I really do not think that he is doing himself justice. What I am urging is that we should not press unnecessarily for the retirement of men at 65 when we shall badly need them in industry at higher ages in days to come, and that we should refrain from placing a burden on the future, which is what we shall do if any extension is made to the pensions scheme, until we are quite certain that that burden can be borne. There can be no question that the primary need for our generation and for the future is defence, for otherwise there will be no future for us. We must bear that in mind. If it is possible to do more, I have no doubt that the inquiry which we have been promised will produce some scheme which can be put into force.
Will the hon. Member tell us whether he is in favour of an increase in pensions or against it?
The hon. Member has asked me a good plain question. I am in favour of waiting until we know the results of the inquiry. I am in favour, if it is financially possible, of increasing the pension at the age of 70 to provide greater comfort for people who are really of retiring age, but I am not in favour—and this is an entirely independent opinion of my own—of expending a limited amount of money on granting pensions at a lower age, because I think it would be much better if it were concentrated on the really old.
9.26 p.m.
I consider it a privilege to have the opportunity of taking part in this historic Debate. I call it historic because, although I am relatively young and have been in this House only a short time, I have seen this issue changed from being one beneath the dignity of many people as a subject for their public speeches to a great national issue. Today I am confident that we in this House who are supporting this demand are reflecting the feeling of thinking men and women. This issue will become overwhelming, and, no matter what Government is in power during the next six months, it will be bound as the result of growing public opinion in the country to deal with this problem. I also welcome the opportunity of speaking on this Motion because of the contrast between the position in this country and that in some other parts of the world, where the aspirations and principles for which we stand have been driven underground and the social services have been cut to such an extent that there is hardly any of them left. In Germany, for example, during the past few years old age pensions have been reduced 40 per cent.
I contrast that dark picture, which is producing a cloud over the whole of humanity, with the position in this House this afternoon. Here we have the most powerful Government that this country has ever had, representing the vested interests of the country, which determined that there was to be no increase in the social services. Less than three weeks ago the Prime Minister wrote a letter to the hon. Member for East Birkenhead (Mr. G. White) saying that the Government could not increase old age and widows' pensions; and yet to-day, as a result of the growing indignation in the country, as the result of the efforts of public-spirited people, irrespective of their political opinions, joined together in the National Association of Old Age Pensoners, backing up the people's movement based upon the trade union, cooperative and Labour movement and the trades councils in every part of the country, public opinion has become so overwhelming that the Prime Minister this afternoon was forced to agree to an inquiry into this problem. I have spoken repeatedly in this House of the example which was set by the right hon. Gentleman who represented the Clay Cross Division—one of the finest Foreign Secretaries we have ever had, who believed that if a thing was right to say on a platform it was right to say it at that Box, and if he said it at that Box he believed it was right to say at at Geneva. It was because of that policy of Arthur Henderson, carried out throughout his life, that hope was revived that we should eventually have peace and disarmament in this world. As the result of the confidence that has been built up, we believe that we have something worth defending in this country, and that is why we on this side have been ready to support increases in expenditure on defence in order to defend what democracy has achieved in the past. If it is right to defend that, it is also right to defend our people from the effects of modern industrial developments. No one who has not been employed in industry during the past 10 years has any idea of the effect upon human energy of the increased mechanisation in the pits, with their coal conveyors and coal cutting machines, in the steel works, and in the engineering factories, with their scientific methods of production; and they have also no idea of the enormous increase in wealth produced by that increased productivity per man and woman employed in industry. Therefore we say that our case is an unanswerable one, and I venture to prophesy that hon. Members and right hon. Members on the other side of the House, when they come back after the Recess with the knowledge they gain from their constituents, will bring pressure to bear on the Cabinet to take some action on this question.9.33 p.m.
While I have every sympathy with the demand for increased old age pensions, I cannot support the Motion put forward from the other side of the House for an all-round and immediate increase. We cannot forget that old age pensions were never intended to be a complete provision for old age, but rather to supplement other provisions. And while a good many people, through ill health and long unemployment, have been unable to make such provision, there are many others who, either on their own behalf or through their unions, or with the help of their employers, have been able to make adequate provision. I can illustrate that from what happens to my own employés. We have an insurance scheme to which all contribute, and it is possible for a man with a basic wage of four guineas a week, which is our commonest case, to retire on pension at 65 with 35s. per week. In addition to that he can have 10s. per week from the national scheme and up to 15s. a week from his union. Such a man, without taking into consideration any old age pension which his wife may receive, can retire with about £3 per week. To give such a man an increased old age pension on a non-contributory basis would place an unjust burden upon the taxpayer. But while there are many men in positions such as I have described, there are many others whose only means of support, other than public assistance, is the old age pension.
It is idle to deny that in those cases where it is only means of support, the old age pension is insufficient and that people in those cases consequently have to appeal for public assistance. Such assistance should, in my opinion, be a national and not a local charge and those who are in that position, should not have to go to the public assistance committee. Therefore I would like to see the Government introduce some form of supplementary pension, subject to proof of need as is done with the old age pension at 70, but which, once granted, would be payable with the old age pension through the Post Office. I admit that such a scheme would involve a large cost upon the Treasury but we as a nation are through our local funds already bearing the bulk of that cost, and all I propose would be the transfer of this expenditure from local to national funds with a consequent adjustment of national contributions to local authorities. When we admit, however, that the old age pension is not adequate in many instances, we recognise that those who are now working should be given the opportunity to contribute to an adequate higher pension or an actuarial basis. The younger men would not, I believe, present a difficult problem and the sooner they are allowed to start contributing the easier will be the solution of the problem. I hope therefore that the inquiry which the Prime Minister announced to-day will result in the younger men, the employers and the State having the opportunity to build up a fund on a sound actuarial basis, which will give, in the future, adequate pensions. The older men whose age will not allow them to contribute to an adequate pension present a more difficult problem. I believe that even that problem could be solved either by a sliding scale of higher contributions, or by slightly reducing the increased pension to which they would contribute. That, I admit, would entail a differential rate of contributions, but I see no insuperable difficulty in this.The hon. Member mentioned a very interesting point about the scheme in his own business, where, I think he said, the basic wage was four guineas a week. Would he tell us whether different wage rates bear different proportions in regard to payments to the fund?
Yes, different wage rates pay different proportions to the fund. Those who do not contribute to the national old age pension scheme have to contribute to larger pensions through the firms pension scheme, to make up for the lack of a national pension.
Does that apply to the manual workers? Is there any limit as regards manual workers?
No, but the scheme is graduated. Where a man does not get a national pension he has to contribute to the larger pension through the firm's scheme. Such a fund as I have proposed would mean increased cost, and it is right that we should give very careful consideration, as the Prime Minister said today, to the question of whether the nation can bear that increased cost. I believe that we can do it, particularly if the bulk of the cost is borne by the employers and by the employed who will benefit from the fund. If we had a higher scale of national pensions, it would not be necessary for firms to provide in their own funds for such higher pensions, and therefore it would relieve them of the burden of part of the cost of their own schemes. On the part of the individuals who will benefit from the fund, I believe there is a general willingness to contribute at higher rates to a sound adequate scheme. I am sure of that because, if I may once again refer to my own employés, I found that in spite of the fact that they had to contribute to their national pension, many of them to trade union pensions and all of them to our own pension scheme, when I made available to them a supplementary pension scheme, no less than 20 per cent. voluntarily took part in that scheme. Therefore I say I am certain that if the State were to provide a sound and adequate scheme on an actuarial basis, the workers would be ready to pay a higher rate of contribution to such a scheme.
It is the lack of such a sound and adequate scheme, which involves large investments by the working classes in such forms of assurance as those referred to earlier by the hon. Member for Hitchin (Sir A. Wilson). A large proportion of those investments is absorbed in expenses and dividends. I feel that it would be much better if that money were invested in a national mutual pension fund, which would give in old age, an adequate pension to those who had contributed to it. While I feel that every encouragement should be given to employers schemes for their employés, I think we have to recognise that many firms are too small to run their own independent schemes. We have to recognise too, that such schemes, unless they are organised by industries instead of by individual firms, tend to immobilise labour. I feel it is much better that the State should be the medium of providing adequate means for retirement in old age. I hope, therefore, the Government will not hesitate to go into this inquiry and to get all the information that it is possible to gather. I hope that if they do nothing else, they will, at any rate, give the younger men in industry an opportunity of starting at once to contribute to a sound scheme on an actuarial basis, which will give them, when they come to retire, an adequate pension.9.43 p.m.
I do not propose to travel over ground that has already been covered to-night, but in case there should be any misunderstanding, and as many hon. Members opposite have referred to the subject of spinsters pensions I desire to say that I and many of my hon. Friends on these benches, have taken an active part in that cause. Nor do I desire to traverse what has been said by the Mover and Seconder of the Amendment. The Seconder spoke in a large and generous spirit, and it seems to me that it must be somewhat difficult for him to be a whole-hearted supporter of the Amendment; but neither from the Mover nor the Seconder was there any definite concrete proposal that would raise any substantial hope of something great coming from their Amendment. It is true that the Mover made at least one substantial proposal, namely, that where a wife had reached the age of 60 and the husband was about to receive the pension for himself at the age of 65, she also should get the pension. I would remind the House that on 14th May, 1936, the Financial Secretary to the Treasury told us that that reform would cost in the first year only £3,750,000 and in ten years £4,750,000. It is significant that the only concrete proposal made by the Mover of the Amendment was one of such small dimensions, though I admit its importance.
A great deal has been said about the extension of our social services. The argument has been used that we must pause, and that we can go no further. The figures supplied to us from time to time indicate that at present we are paying in old age pensions £95,000,000, and that in 40years it will have reached £147,000,000. If you add £81,000,000 to that, it is £228,000,000. It was mentioned on another occasion by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury as £259,000,000 altogether. I want to say that if you are going to make an expansion of that kind an argument against a further advance in social progress, you will make impossible all progress. You will block every line of social progress by an argument of that kind. What are the figures? In 1913 non-contributory pensions cost £12,400,000; the estimate for this year is £49,000,000. In 1929 contributory pensions cost £4,000,000; the estimate for this year is £20,000,000. On 25th April the Chancellor of the Exchequer indicated that in 1853, when Mr. Gladstone submitted his first Budget, he budgeted for £52,000,000 and that he himself was now budgeting for £943,000,000. As my hon. Friend the Member for Gower (Mr. Grenfell) put it, for every is. provided in the first Budget of Mr. Gladstone, 24s. had to be provided to-day. Take the armed Services. In 1913 the cost was £77,000,000, and, as the Prime Minister told us to-day, it Is £730,000,000 for this year, or, if you take what is coming in view, £750,000,000. It is argued from that that you should pause and not go further. My argument from it is that there is a progress and a buoyancy in finance that expands with human progress and with ever-expanding human need; and the very fact that the Prime Minister stated that there had been such an expansion in housing, education, and unemployment insurance is to me a great argument that our finances can well stand this further strain, if strain you must call it. I think that the old age pensioners will resent the kind of argument that was used by the hon. Member who spoke last but one on the Government side, when he spoke of the limited number of young people that there would be, and the big strain that might be placed upon the next generation. That seemed strange, coming from those benches opposite, for what have they been doing? There have been unprecented loans. The Prime Minister told us to-day of £500,000,000 to borrow; but when it comes to social justice to the older generation, they say it is too big a burden to place on the generations yet unborn. I think that that will be resented. Then there are the savings that have to be borne in mind. In my constituency, ex Provost Irvine, of Coatbridge, has been at great pains to make calculations in this regard. I will not give the figures at this hour, but by elaborate calculations he shows the great gain there would be for national insurance by young people working who are at present idle, for unemployment insurance in the same regard, and by the displacement of old people by those who are now on unemployment benefit, but would then be working. It is a very substantial and large saving indeed. In the 81st report of the Commissioners of His Majesty's Revenue we find that if you take those who left estates of a net capital value of over £500,000, there were 50 such estates, and they amounted in their gross capital value to £51,000,000, the very duties on which give more than half of all that is required from the State, to meet the £40,000,000 spoken of by the Prime Minister. I stand for larger pensions because of the independence and self-respect that I wish to see on the part of old age pensioners. There are at present in Scotland 42,387 of them who are obliged to go for Poor Law relief, and I want to say that their dislike of that relief is as strong in Scotland as anywhere else. In his "Epistle to a Young Friend," Burns spoke of the "glorious privilege of being independent" but to get moral or spiritual independence you must have a material independence to begin with, on which to build these others. I know well the virtues of the poor. I have lived and worked among them, and I know something of their noble heroism. My right hon. Friend the Deputy Leader of our party spoke to-day of a "degree of heroism." I know something of the heroism of the humble poor and of the struggles that they have; but I say, as Dr. David Watson, of St. Clement's Church in Glasgow, said before the Royal Commission on Housing, that it is a heroism that should not be asked of any man or woman in a civilised, not to say a Christian, country. I advocate it in the interests of the home. I have referred to Robert Burns, and no one ever gave a nobler expression of the highest ideal of the home than he did in his poem to Dr. Blackburn:"To make a happy fireside clime
To weans and wife.
We have given to the poor of the land enough of the pathos. We plead to give them a beginning of a touch of the sublime. I close with this: When I was conducting my first campaign to become a Member of Parliament, referring to the fact that I was also a minister of religion, the question was put to me:That's the true pathos and sublime Of human life."
My answer was this:"Do you really believe in God and in immortality?"
As for immortality, I said,"I believe in God, and I want to see our social relationships such that they shall no longer be a stumbling block to faith in an all-bountiful, all-just, all-loving Heavenly Father."
This is what we are seeking on this side to do to-night, to bring a little more heaven down to the firesides of the common people."I believe in the heaven yonder, and that is why I want to make this earth more of an avenue leading up to the house of many mansions. And one of the ways to strengthen faith in the heaven yonder is to bring down a little more heaven into the life here and now."
9.53 p.m.
Mark Twain used to preface some of his speeches by saying, "I shall be brief, but tedious." I promise not to speak more than five minutes, but as regards tediousness, I must leave that to the judgment of hon. Members. The Prime Minister said rightly to-day that there is no great difference on either side of the House with regard to the question of an increase in old age pensions. I am certain that if the proverbial good fairy could come into the home of an English worker and offer him the choice of three gifts—good health, good wages, or security in old age—he would always choose security in old age. Therefore, I have always been a warm sympathiser with the case of the old age pensioner. The Prime Minister gave us the background of the whole problem of old age pensions. He told us that the average age was rapidly diminishing. I believe I am right in saying that there are something like 3,000,000 men and women over 65 in this country to-day, equal to the total population of Liverpool, Manchester, and Birmingham. In 1941 I believe the numbers over 75 will have risen to 4,000,000, and in 1961 to just under 5,000,000 Therefore, any Chancellor of the Exchequer when he studies the future progress of this country must realise with some concern that we are building a great house upon shifting foundations. I believe we must try to relate the whole question of old age pensions to the reorganisation of our social services. Those social services have grown up, wide in their scope as they are, from haphazard beginnings. They seem to resemble one of those big English country houses to which each century has made its contribution, splendid to look at but often very uneconomical to run. Those social services likewise have sprung often from voluntary sources. Our education was started by voluntary societies; our present health insurance started with the great benefit societies. Therefore, I believe those social services are full of anomalies.
There is only one solution, I believe, the evening-out of these anomalies, and that is the solution advanced so eloquently earlier to-day by the hon. Member for Birkenhead East (Mr. White). I believe we should have a permanent statutory committee to look over and revise our social services. I believe that statutory committee could be set up on the lines of the Unemployment Insurance Committee. It could report once a year to the appropriate Ministers. In fact, it would be a general staff planning and co-ordinating our social policy, but subject to the consent and approval of Parliament. I believe by those means we might achieve something towards evening-out the benefits which our people receive. Such a committee might advocate even a general social security Act, whereby contributors would pay their contributions for unemployment, for ill health and old age towards one source. I believe, finally, it might allow the claim of old age pensioners to receive consideration. Many hon. Members must, like I myself, have talked to old people in their constituencies, men and women who have grown old in the whirr and clatter of mills and now no longer can look forward to a useful life. I believe we can combine humanity with financial soundness, but under one condition, that we plan and co-ordinate our attack on the problem of poverty, and do not leave it to our traditional policy of muddling through.9.58 p.m.
I am glad that we have had this Motion of Censure to-day, because I believe we have witnessed an example of the power of the people who, it seems to me, have for some time been lost sight of by this National Government. To-day we have had the Prime Minister coming down to this House, following a letter written a week or two ago, and laying a case before this House —which I believe must have taken the Cabinet longer to put together—so that he might deliver his own supporters from the wrath which they were likely to meet if there had been a straight vote upon this; Motion. I am wondering what the inquiry is to be about. We know how many old pensioners there are who are in receipt of public assistance. There is one factor, I agree, that we do not know, and I believe that is where the Prime Minister made a great mistake in his letter. I have not time to go into that fully, because I have promised to speak only for 10 minutes, but 1 want to be charitable and I say that I believe the Prime Minister made a mistake. I believe he was misinformed. It is not the first time he has been misinformed. When the question of the Czech gold came up he was misinformed, and I believe he made a mistake, and I believe he is making a mistake when he refers in his letter to only 10 percent, of old age pensioners seeking public assistance as indicating the extent of the problem. In my view there are more. That may need some inquiry, but even if it does surely the Government, noting the growing volume of opinion in the country, could have made progress before now.
To-night once again we have the spectacle of a Government with a huge majority moved by the voice of the people. I believe that really is at the bottom of it all. We have seen that the voice of the people makes even a yes man's Government take notice. The Prime Minister said that it has never been claimed that old age pensioners who are without other resources can or should live on their pensions. If that has not been claimed before I am glad that we are staking the claim now, because it will become increasingly necessary for us to make better provision for them in the age of machinery and of invention into which we arc moving. The speed of men at work is becoming so great that they will be tiring ever sooner as a result of our increased production. And what about the other people in the State, the judges, admirals and Army officers? In our local paper I read of the case of a fine old man who is celebrating his golden wedding after being 56 years in the pit. He has not retired on half pay. He has a retiring pension of 10s. a week, probably, and no other resources. That is the lot of many of our workers, especially in the mines—low wages for many years, then unemployment, then the pension. It was said from that Box that it was intended that the pension would be a supplement to any money of his own which the recipient would have, but how can a man in such a position as I have described be expected to have resources? It is our duty to look after these old warriors and servants of the State. I am not begruding admirals, judges or officers their pensions. They have served the State, and I suppose have served it well. Probably some of them have not served it as well as others, but generally they have served it well, and the State gives them a pension. What about the workers in industry, those who have served industry for 40 or 50 years? The man I spoke of just now who has celebrated his golden wedding started work at nine years of age, and each year he has been producing more wealth than he ever received in wages, and each year there should have been money to his credit, so that when he reached the age when he was unable to continue his work he would have been able to draw support from a grateful State to which he had been contributing all his life. I should like to draw attention to what is happening in my own district. Public assistance has been stopped in the last 12 months in the case of men who are living with relatives. Because of the hardship caused by this decision good men have been breaking their hearts. The Prime Minister referred to the number of old age pensioners who are receiving public assistance. I have figures showing that out of a total of 1,400 relief cases, 34 per cent, are old age pensioners. That is 3½times more than what the Prime Minister said was the percentage. I obtained this quotation from a book in the Library. I understand that it is not permissible to mention the name, but he was an illustrious man who had the respect of the people of this country. He said:At least 75 per cent, to 85 per cent, of the homes are likely to be the homes of people who are qualified to draw the old age pension. If they are to be the glory of the nation I want them to be homes where old age can be secure, where public assistance is not withheld because an old man is staying with his son-in-law. I know of such a case in which the old man goes out for a walk at meal times rather than live on his son-in-law. I do not want that to be the glory of the home. I want our glory to be on a better foundation. I have another quotation, from a man probably less illustrious, but the quotation is equally meritorious:"The foundations of national glory are set in the homes of the people."
I hope, if we have to have this inquiry, that it will be no small, peddling thing. I hope it will be adequate."One of the tests, perhaps the chief, of a country's greatness is its regard for the disabled and the sick and the provision that it makes for the aged."
10.9 p.m.
We have listened to a wide variety of speeches and, despite the conflict which is always supposed to exist across the Floor of the House, there has been a large measure of unanimity of feeling and of opinion. I would not apologise for reviving a little of the spirit of controversy which enables the House to function as it should function, as a House of representatives of the British people, who may have differences of opinion on public affairs. There has been a most remarkable difference of opinion on the subject of to-day's Vote of Censure. It has been urged that the difference has been narrowed down. We shall wait and see. We assumed that the Government had not changed its opinion from the recent declaration of the Prime Minister. He has made the principal speech, up to the present, against the Vote of Censure. He is entitled to do so, but I wish that, in speaking against it, he had been able to vote against the proposal upon which our censure is based. We have presented him with a statement of our case. I understand that every single Member of the House has received a copy, free of charge, of this document, which I claim to rank equal in merit with any political document that has been published in this country. There has been no document imbued with a greater sense; of progress and social justice. The Prime Minister did not show any great sign of enthusiasm for this plan which we have submitted. He found plausible excuses. He ransacked the ground for all kinds of arguments against the acceptance of the Vote of Censure. He did not convince me. I still think that ho not quite consistently claimed to have always been in favour of old age pensions on a contributory basis. He repudiated the quotation that was made. He said it did not fit because he was not against old age pensions. He was against the particular form in which old age pensions have been granted. I did not think he did himself justice there.
I should like to question something more of the ground on which his natural filial pride was once again exhibited. I was myself politically brought up on Joe Chamberlain. My people have been Radicals for a generation. I heard the name of that political figure before I heard the name of any other. I doubt whether Joe Chamberlain, the Radical, would have been in favour of contributory pensions. If I remember rightly speeches attributed to him, he argued that the basis of the claim was the social service, the industrial service, rendered by workpeople and, when they came to the days of declining strength, they had an inalienable right to be maintained by the State itself. I am almost sure that I could find quotations almost in those words. The Prime Minister favours a contributory scheme. I regret that we have been led to the acceptance of this contributory principle. I do not stand here as an advocate of the contributory principle. The qualification is far too narrow and too arbitrary. These contributory schemes are not free from pitfalls and anomalies, and every one of us knows how precarious is the claim of a person to a pension when the claim is assessed upon the number of contributions that he has been permitted to make in the circumstances of his personal life. We started this contributory system in the National Health Insurance Act. The right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) was responsible. I remember the outcry in those days against licking stamps. We have licked millions of stamps since. The great majority of the working people in the country have to lick stamps now in order to live. We have come a long way since those days. All these schemes are based upon insurance by personal contribution, of which the Prime Minister seemed to be so proud. He gave us a list of various Measures that have been brought in and for which he claimed personal credit. I thought he was excessively proud of the Act of 1935. I wish I had time to examine that Act. The granting of a really sound system of old age pensions was almost entirely vitiated by the Act of 1935. [HON. Members: "Oh."] Yes, I will refer to one or two proofs. I do not wish to go back or to retract from what I said. The Act of 1935 gives the old age pensioner 10s. a week, whether he is employed or unemployed. The worst anomaly of all is that a person who has, by good fortune or good health, been enabled to maintain himself in his employment and has been earning a full wage, gets 10s. a week which he does not immediately need, while the person who has failed to get employment gets only 10s. a week and has to live upon it. Who can defend that state of affairs? The principle is entirely wrong, but it was applied because some other people shared the Prime Minister's idea that the right to pension should be based on contributions. That is not the right way to deal with the matter at all. In his speech to-day the Prime Minister referred to the weakness of that principle, but he himself was the first to complain of it, because he attributed to us the desire to limit pensions to people who paid a certain number of contributions. The nature of the claim to pensions is, as I see it, one of service. I do not acknowledge to any person in this House or outside the right to a full economic life unless he has contributed something, as a worker by hand or brain. I would not acknowledge to any hon. or right hon. Gentleman the right to full economic life simply because his father or his grandfather had left him security. I repudiate that altogether. The only social claim is the claim of service. It is true that we are a long way from the complete acceptance of that principle, but men who are in their right mind and who are able to assess rightly would repudiate the idea that the claim to old age pensions should depend upon whether a person has been successful in obtaining insurable employment. I have heard more nonsense spoken to-day on this subject than I have heard in many months of discussions, even in this House. We are all wrong in regard to the economics of these pensions. My first assertion is that the right to them should not be based upon insurance contributions and that the scale of benefits should never depend upon the contributions paid by an individual person. If this is a national recognition of a human right, the responsibility should not be confined to insured persons or to persons engaged in insurable industry. I look upon the weekly contributions as distinct evidence of service. When men have paid their contributions and got their stamps it is a proof that they have worked. So far so good. There is evidence of service so far as the stamps provide it. The Prime Minister's argument this afternoon has to be taken into account. If he complained because people had not paid their contributions and were not receiving pensions it is the fault of those who, all through these schemes, insisted on the contributory principle of which the Prime Minister appears so proud. The last speaker said we did not ask for stamps from judges, admirals and people in the public service. I have no quarrel with that. I agree with the recognition of the principle all round and no more to the admiral than to the deck hand.Will the hon. Gentleman allow me—
I was making no reference to the hon. and gallant Member. I was referring to all admirals as well as to generals and highly-placed public servants. These people get a generous pension and I make no complaint about it, because the pension is a compensation for loss of office. When he retires, he gets compensation for the loss of his office, and that is a safe principle for universal application. Those who are in casual employment, or are employed by a private employer, cannot derive that benefit; their connection with their employer or with their employment is not long enough to establish that personal contact which gives a pension right, and, therefore, no unit less than the State itself ought to be responsible for the provision of these pensions. It has been left to the State, and the State has always been unwilling so far as the opposite side of the House is concerned.
Whenever a claim has been made for social justice to old or young, there has always been opposition. It is here today. The hon. Member for Flint (Mr. Rowlands) cannot shed himself of responsibility for this niggling, piffling, time-serving effort this afternoon. He has, however, the consolation that history has repeated itself, that other people have done the same thing at the behest of their masters in this House on former occasions. I ask the House to regard this as a solemn occasion. We are face to face with a personal responsibility, and, while I make charges against hon. Members on the other side of the House, I make them in order that our responsibility may be seen in a clearer light. I will take whatever responsibility may fall upon me, but I charge hon. Members opposite with placing all kinds of subterfuges and delays in the way of these schemes to which they have paid lip service. They want an inquiry—an amazingly slow process, which I thought was confined to the Tory mind, always lingering and lagging behind. Indeed, the speeches in support of the Amendment to-day have given signs of the paralysis which overtakes all men, even the most robust, who run in Tory harness. The Prime Minister this afternoon devoted more than half his time to the question of cost. He is right to pay attention to the question of cost; we all have to do so. There is no need to lecture us on that subject; we have counted pennies and balanced budgets all our lives; we have had to do it. We have been brought up in the practice of balancing budgets, and I never complain —indeed, I am always glad—when people want to know, not only where the money is to come from, but how it is to be allocated and distributed. The Prime Minister brought forward an argument for which there is no foundation. I am amazed at the tendency that there is to repeat stupid arguments. Let me repeat just another. It has been heard in this House again and again, but I will remind the House of it once more. It is said that we are entering upon a period when the balance of population will have shifted, and when we shall have ever so many old people and no children. What a terribly gloomy prospect that is. I hate to join even in the contemplation of that terrible condition of things. I do not believe it is going to come about. The human race has the power to adjust itself; there will be children; life will be carried on. But in this House to-day we are told that we must be resigned to the idea that we shall all live to be very old, that we shall cumber the ground with our old bones, that there will be no young life. That is nonsense. The picture is not true, and never can be true. But assuming that it is true, and that you have, out of every 100 people, 50 who are over the age of 60 years, and no children, does that mean that your burdens will be heavier? Is it not known to everyone that the burden of maintenance is in the maintenance of young life, and that when there are no children it will be easier for individuals to maintain their miserable old selves, so that there will be no economic problem? There has been complaint about the expense, and it has been said that no doubt it would be the workmen who paid. The working men of this country have far more intelligence than they are given credit for in this House. [Interruption.] I speak with far more knowledge on that matter than a great number of people in this House, because I have, to my great satisfaction, spent a quarter of a century at one of the hardest and most difficult manual tasks in this country. The workman knows that he has to pay his contributions, and also what is regarded as the employer's contribution. [Interruption.] In the mining districts you will find put down in black and white against the workers a disbursement for the employer's contribution. But suppose we do ask the workman himself to pay 2s. 4d. a week, all in; that is, or should be, not more than 5 per cent, of an ordinary wage—if it is more than 5 per cent., so much the worse for the wage. The workman is quite willing to pay5 per cent, of his earnings as a guarantee against ill-health and for pensions for his old age and for his widow. The employer has the opportunity of passing on his contribution. I can assure the House that the employers will always be against making a contribution; they always have been. Then it is said that the taxpayer has to pay. But no one pays as much as the workman; and if he does not complain, why should anyone else complain? Suppose this pensions scheme to be generous enough to cover everybody, and that it costs £100,000,000 a year, it does not really matter very much who pays it in the long run. Suppose that £100.000.000 is paid in order to maintain the aged people of this country, that is still only 2 per cent, of our national income—a trifling cost. Are we to grudge that? I am sorry that the Prime Minister did not attempt to explain this plan. Apparently he did not study it. I hope he will do so, because this is an honest effort by honest men to present this House with a solution of a pressing social problem. I came into this House 17 years ago last week. I become an old servant of the State. I was never regarded as a servant of the State when I worked hard in industry, but now I have become respectable; I am a Member of Parliament. On these matters my mind does not change in the least. In my first election address, trying to present the problems of industry, finance and life to my own people, I made a claim for retiring pensions at the age of 60 for all people in this country. At that time there were 1,000,000 unemployed. The figures have expanded and contracted, and they have been up to 3,000,000, and I can see, if we have good fortune in this country in the next few months, an unemployment problem in the next five or 10years which will dwarf all our experience in that regard in the past. I believe that it is far better to give reasonable, generous and decent retiring allowances to old people than to maintain old men at work and deny young men the right and privilege of service to the State and of employment. It is proposed in this scheme—as stated on page 31—to amend the 1908 and 1924 old age, pensions and blind persons Acts so as to provide for an increase of 10s. per week for a single person, and 15s. each per week for a married couple. I think that the Prime Minister—though I am not quite sure, and I do not want to do him an injustice—suggested that this is going to take something away from those who have a contractual right. It will do no such thing. This is an opportunity for the person to retire voluntarily, and if he does not retire there will be no expense. If he voluntarily retires he is to have his pension increased from 10s. to 20s., and in the case of a married couple the increase is to be from 20s. to 35s. a week. There will be no burden in this. A place is surrendered in industry which can well be occupied by a younger person who has family responsibilities and physical strength, and whose duty to the State is greater than at any time. The first fact is that we take away from the insured person nothing whatever. He can continue to work until 70 and can draw the contractual 10s. a week pension, but if he is unemployed and unlikely to get work again, or voluntarily retires from employment, he is to get the sum of 35s. Hon. Members should read paragraphs 1 to 7 on pages 31 and 32 and then they will have the whole of this scheme in a nutshell. The plan is perfectly simple. It is a plan for ensuring a decent standard of life for the person who can no longer earn his livelihood by working. That is the idea. The Prime Minister is aware that the Act of 1925 did not confer upon the aged person the recognition of his social rights. The person who gets 10s. from a grateful nation through the State and has to beg a miserable is., 2s., 3s. or 4s. might as well be left without anything. It is more humiliating to beg those few shillings than to go to the public assistance committee for the lot. There is humiliation in the Act of 1925. We are asking for the repeal of the Act in order to give the larger pension of the figure I have mentioned. There is one other point I wish to make which has not been raised during the Debate. In page 21, in the last paragraph, the right hon. Gentleman will find another very interesting statement. I want to read this because it has been assumed that a workman, whatever his wages, can only get 35s. on retirement. We have seen the difficulty of arranging for a person to retire who may be receiving £4 or £5 a week. We have not intended to deprive that person of the right to insure for a large benefit when he comes to give up his employment. On page 21, it says:If a person wanted to retire at 55 instead of 65, and he paid more, he could insure for a larger number of years. If he wants £2 10s. instead of 35s. he can get it by paying on a higher scale and securing a larger number of units. The minimum is 35s. for a married couple, but there is no upward limit so long as the necessary number of units is obtained. I want the House to realise that we have to take responsibility for the mobilisation of employment. I would give everything I have in life to be sure that we shall not be called upon to face a terrible trial. If so, we shall have to take our place. If that be demanded of us, I shall do it with as much fortitude as I can, believing that there are some things that we must suffer, even life itself, if occasion demands it. I hope we shall be spared that trial and that fate, but I do urge that in this House we shall take upon ourselves the responsibility of planning life, planning leisure, planning human rights, comradeship, the rights of association, the rights of a common race and of a common interest, basing life upon a larger and more generous living for all. I plead for this just as much in the interests of the young men as of the old men. If you have two persons looking for a job, one 65 or 70 and the other 25 or 30, why should we not say by law that the obligation to work should be required of the young man and not of the older man? This plan is just as much in the interests of the young man as of the older man. I plead for the older man who wants to retire and to be given a full chance of a decent life in retirement. Let me in this connection point to what has been done in New Zealand. There we have a fine example of what has been done by a country not so rich as our own, a country trying to control human society on more modern and civilised lines than any that I know of in the world. I do not want it to be thought that the Vote of Censure is moved in a sense of personal disapprobation of the Prime Minister, but I want it to be known that we on this side of the House are not satisfied with the Government. This is the only chance we have of showing our dissatisfaction. We shall vote for the Motion because we are not satisfied with the way the Government has dealt with the old age pensions question. We are not satisfied with the Prime Minister's declaration this afternoon, and we shall vote to-night ando we shall press forward to convert public opinion in this country, not for party gain—[Hon. Members: "Oh! "] —not for party gain, but we shall teach, we shall instruct, we shall appeal for a public opinion in this country that will make it impossible for any Government to refuse to do what is right and just in this matter."Under such an arrangement persons who wished to do so could subscribe for additional years or additional units of pension or both."
10.39 p.m.
I did not ask the right hon. Gentleman for more than the few minutes that remain, because I feel, as he himself said at the beginning of his speech, that really, as things have turned out, there is a large and general measure of unity of feeling in the House to-day. When a Vote of Censure is moved it often ends in acrimonious and bitter attacks and counter-attacks; but the plain fact of the matter is that the Prime Minister's statement early in the Debate transformed the situation. All who are sincerely desirous of seeing whether any improvement can at this time be made in the old age pensions scheme must be only too glad that that should be so. The hon. Member made some remarks which rather led me to think that he was not perhaps entirely taking the same view as some of his friends, or indeed, as this pamphlet takes. He made it quite clear that, as far as he is concerned, he is a critic and an opponent of a contributory scheme. I have only to turn to this pamphlet, and on page 28 I find:
The authors of this pamphlet give two reasons. The first is that if it was on a non-contributory basis such a thing could only be achieved by cuts in the other social services, and the second is that the budgetary situation could not possibly justify an attempt to make such an increase on other grounds. In that matter the hon. Member who recommends this pamphlet to the House recommends it with a difference because he is a strong critic of a contributory scheme. Not only that; he said that one of the reasons why he objected to a contributory scheme was that it worked out in this way, that one member under the scheme would get 10s. which he does not want and somebody else would get it when he needs it. I hardly expected to hear so recent an advocacy of the means test."It is clear that any scheme of improvement in State pensions as substantial as that referred to above, would have to be financed on a contributory basis."
Why does the right hon. Gentleman want to give it to a man of 65 and not to a man of 64?
The answer is that these things arc worked out on an actuarial calculation and that the contributions are adjusted to the benefits. I think that was just a passing matter which suggested itself to the hon. Member. I want to emphasise what I think is the central matter here. The Prime Minister made it plain that we could not at this time make improvements in our pension schemes by imposing heavy additional burdens on the Exchequer, and I hope that his solemn warning, which he gave not for the first time as to the seriousness of the position we have to face in reference to defence expenditure and rearmament, is one which will be attended to not only inside this House but in the country at large. At the same time, he did hold out the hope that investigation might find some means of improvement consistent with that necessary rule.
I should like to illustrate what is really a very important difference in pensions schemes as between those which we have already endeavoured to work, and are working, and what perhaps might be made by way of improvement. Hitherto every State-assisted contributory scheme has been based on the principle of a contribution from the wage-earner, the employer and the State, and it has been worked out in this way. The contributor hitherto has never been required to pay for more than the money value of the benefits that he himself is going to receive. That is to say, the new entrant at 16 has the prospect of a long life before him before he himself becomes entitled to a pension. You take him at 16, and you calculate the rate of weekly amounts to be contributed by himself and his employer, so that, after providing for the chances of life and possible periods of unemployment, at the age of 65 these contributions will be equivalent to the benefit to which he looks forward for himself and his wife, or his widow. At the same time, you bring into the scheme others, of course, who are not entering into it at the age of 16, but are much older. That means that there is a shortage, and that a large sum remains to be provided if the scheme is to be actuarily sound; and it is that provision, the contribution to make up for the older entrants, which the State has hitherto shouldered. I do not think my hon. Friend the Member for South Bradford (Mr. Holdsworth) put the matter quite justly when he said that all insurance involved the risk that you might not yourself enjoy what you paid for. That is true, but it goes further. One is entitled to know—and that is what the actuaries calculate—what ought to be paid week by week for a youth of 16, either by himself or by his employer, in order that those contributions may be equivalent to the benefit he may look forward to getting himself. Then the State has to pay the additional amount necessary to bring the older people up to that level. The result is that when such a scheme is started the contribution paid through the Exchequer is bigger than the contributions made from the pockets of the wage-earner and the employer. The Exchequer has paid the bigger half. I think that this year, if you take all the old age pension schemes together, including, of course, the non-contributory one, a sum of just under £100,000,000 will be paid out to old age pension beneficiaries, widows, and so on. Some of that is under the original non-contributory scheme, but that is a comparatively small proportion; and even if you took that out and confined yourself solely to the contributory scheme, it would still be true that, as long as you calculated on the system I have described, the contribution that comes from the workman and the employer jointly is not providing for half the total benefits, and that the larger part is being provided directly by the State. That is the situation. Of course, if we continued in that situation and regarded every addition, every flat rate increase, as still going to be provided in that way, frankly I do not think that, in the existing financial situation, it could be done. That is an important question on which I was glad to hear the hon. Member for Gower speak so positively. Would it be practicable, and could it be managed, that a larger contribution should be made by, that a larger burden should be put upon, the new entrant, than is strictly necessary for the purpose of providing for his own future pension? In other words, can younger workpeople be fairly called upon to make a contribution which would help to carry the older workpeople? It has been pointed out with great force that many of the younger workpeople realise that the day will come when they will be older, and in a sense, therefore, everybody is contributing for age when age comes upon him. But it is a new departure in our existing situation, and plainly, it is one which is contemplated in this Labour pamphlet. If one reads it carefully, one sees that that is the idea. Therefore, I think it is very necessary to do what the Prime Minister said must be done. We must at once investigate as closely as we can to find out to what extent it is practicable and right to increase, let us say, the contribution which is at present made, and which is already quite a substantial one, in order that thereby we may build up a larger fund for the purpose of helping aged people. That is the first answer to the hon. Member for Morpeth (Mr. R. J. Taylor), who asked, "Why do we want to have any investigation?" These things are rather more difficult than that, and really it is necessary to ascertain, from those who can speak with the best authority, and from many quarters, whether such a big change in our pensions system is one which commends itself to those who will be primarily concerned. There is a second question. It must not be assumed without reflection and inquiry that you can very greatly increase the weekly contribution from the employer. That is a matter for investigation, for it includes employers in trades that are not sheltered, trades that have to do with exports, that are in competition with the products of other countries where the social code may not be as high as ours. We shall consider the matter quite impartially but with care and honesty and a sense of responsibility to see whether the thing can be done. I very much hope that the investigation may be made speedily, and that we may find that something can be done, but I do point out that that is really involved in the suggestion which is now being pressed. It is just as well that all of us in all parts of the House should realise it. It is quite plain that the Labour pamphlet really contemplates it, for it says on page 30:I am very glad to find that that essential condition is really recognised in all quarters of the House, as it is recognised in this pamphlet. The pamphlet goes on to say that:"The amounts to be contributed by the State and the contributors respectively would be fixed at the time of the introduction of these improvements, and would have regard to the economic and Budgetary conditions prevailing at the time and other commitments falling on the Treasury."
There is one other observation I wish to make. I notice that in the pamphlet it says that this proposed pensions scheme of the Labour party has been balanced with the rest of the programme of reforms including further expenditure on education with maintenance allowances, nutrition, health services, improved conditions for the unemployed and rehabilitation of the distressed areas, etc. I am glad that that pamphlet has been quoted, because all of us, when discussing an important topic, tend for the time being to concentrate upon that, and do not always remember that there are other things equally as important. If you take that long list and imagine that over all that range some further improvement may be promptly made, obviously you are already involving the public funds and public revenue in very large amounts. The document goes on to say:"The proportion to be paid by the workers, the employers, and the State would be fixed accordingly."
Well, I must say that if I am to understand that the proposal in this document is one by which not only the social improvements are effected, but that the cost of armaments—the Defence Programme —is to be met out of taxes, it appears to me that they are engaged in postponing this improvement to the Greek Kalends. I do not know whether it is seriously imagined that you can raise out of taxes the enormous amounts you now have to raise for purposes of defence, and on top of that make great improvements in all the social reforms. It is essential to the practical consideration of this question that we should realise that we must, in respect of our armaments expenditure, spread it between taxes and loans and, heavy as the burden of loans will be, as the Prime Minister pointed out, at least it makes a situation where we may have much better hope of doing something than you could ever have if all the money were raised out of taxes. I would add that, whatever may be done about defence, there can be no doubt, I think, about this, that the money which the State contributes to a pension scheme must be raised year by year out of taxes. It cannot be borrowed, because it is obviously an annual contribution, and tends to be an increasing one. Therefore, it is extremely important to bear in mind that our ability to make further contributions from State funds in this matter is strictly limited. I think what I have said will remind the House of the necessity for"Further, the cost of armaments would be met out of taxation rather than loan.'"
Division No. 287.]
| AYES.
| [10.59 p.m.
|
| Acland, Sir R. T. D. | Bevan, A. | Davies, S. O. (Merthyr) |
| Adams, D. (Cornell) | Broad, F. A. | Day, H. |
| Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.) | Bromfield, W. | Dobbie, W. |
| Adamson, Jennie L. (Dartford) | Brown, C. (Mansfield) | Dunn, E. (Rother Valley) |
| Adamson, W. M. | Burke, W. A. | Ede, J. C. |
| Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.) | Cape, T. | Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.) |
| Amman, C. G. | Charleton, H. C. | Edwards, N. (Caerphilly) |
| Anderson, F. (Whitehaven) | Chater, D. | Evans, D. O. (Cardigan) |
| Banfield, J. W. | Cluse, W. S. | Evans, E. (Univ. of Wales) |
| Barnes, A. J. | Cooks, F. S. | Fletcher, Lt.- Comdr. R. T. H. |
| Barr, J. | Collindridge, F. | Frankel, D. |
| Bartlett, C. V. O. | Cove, W. G. | Gallacher, W. |
| Batey, J | Cripps, Hon. Sir Stafford | Gardner, B. W. |
| Beaumont, H. (Batley) | Daggar, G. | Garro Jones, G. M. |
| Bellenger, F. J. | Dalton, H. | George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd (Cam v'll) |
| Benn, Rt. Hon. W. W. | Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill) | George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) |
| Benson, G. | Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton) | George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey) |
investigation. I share the hope which has been expressed that the investigation will take place promptly and that good will come of it.
As the Prime Minister at the beginning made reference to the history of the matter, perhaps I may be allowed to say in regard to the beginnings of so many of these schemes—old age pensions, which have been productive of so much advantage, and health insurance and unemployment insurance—that they were all started on their way to the Statute Book in the first Parliament in which I had the honour to serve, when the Prime Minister was Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman. I would also remind hon. Members that then they were not all as universally accepted as they are to-day. It is a satisfaction to one who has my political traditions, a satisfaction which I shall be allowed, I am sure, by hon. Members to enjoy, that I have seen this thing start in legislation, in my own experience of this House. I have seen it develop, I think most of all, under the energy of the present Prime Minister, to what it is to-day. Do not let us belittle what has been done, for it is the greatest achievement in social reform that any country has ever achieved, and do not let us forget the real practical difficulties of making a great extension in times like these. At the same time, if the right spirit prevails in all parties, and if we do what is practicable and possible, I am not without hope that a few months only will pass before we shall find that some improvement may be suggested.
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
The House divided: Ayes, 163; Noes, 356.
| Gibbins, J. | Lunn, W. | Silverman, S. S. |
| Gibson, R. (Greenock) | Macdonald, G. (Ince) | Simpson, F. B. |
| Graham, D. M. (Hamilton) | McEntee, V. La T. | Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (C'thn's) |
| Green, W. H. (Deptford) | McGhee, H. G. | Sloan, A. |
| Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. | MacLaren, A. | Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe) |
| Grenfell, D. R. | Maclean, N. | Smith, E. (Stoke.) |
| Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.) | MacMillan, M. (Western Isles) | Smith, Rt. Hon. H. B. Lees- (K'ly) |
| Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth) | Mainwaring, W. H. | Smith, T. (Normanton) |
| Griffiths, J. (Llanelly) | Mandar, G. le M. | Sorensen, R. W. |
| Groves, T. E. | Marshall, F. | Stephen, C. |
| Guest, Dr. L. H. (Islington, N.) | Mathers, G. | Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n- le- Sp'ng) |
| Hall, G. H. (Aberdare) | Maxton, J. | Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.) |
| Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) | Messer, F. | Summerskill, Dr. Edith |
| Hardie, Agnes | Milner, Major J. | Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth) |
| Harris, Sir P. A. | Montague, F. | Thorne, W. |
| Harvey, T. E. (Eng. Univ's.) | Morgan, J. (York, W.R., Doncaster) | Thurtle, E. |
| Hayday, A. | Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.) | Tinker, J. J. |
| Henderson, A. (Kingswinford) | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Tomlinson, G. |
| Henderson, J. (Ardwick) | Nathan, Colonel H. L. | Viant, S. P. |
| Henderson, T. (Tradeston) | Naylor, T. E. | Walkden, A. G. |
| Hills, A. (Pontefract) | Noel-Baker, P. J. | Walker, J. |
| Hollins, A. | Oliver, G. H. | Watkins, F. C. |
| Hopkin, D. | Parkinson, J. A. | Watson, W. McL. |
| Horabin, T. L. | Pearson, A. | Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. J. C. |
| Jagger, J. | Pethick-Lawrence, Rt. Hon. F. W. | Westwood, J. |
| Jenkins, A. (Pontypool) | Poole, C. C. | White, H. Graham |
| Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath) | Price, M. P. | Whiteley, W. (Blaydon) |
| John, W. | Pritt, D. N. | Wilkinson, Ellen |
| Jones, A. C. (Shipley) | Quibell, D. J. K. | Williams, E. J. (Ogmore) |
| Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T. | Richards, R. (Wrexham) | Williams, T. (Don Valley) |
| Kirby, B. V. | Ridley, G. | Wilmot, John |
| Kirkwood, D. | Riley, B. | Windsor, W. (Hull, C.) |
| Lansbury, Rt. Hon, G. | Ritson, J. | Woods, G. S. (Finsbury) |
| Lathan, G. | Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.) | Young, Sir R. (Newton) |
| Lawson, J. J. | Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens) | |
| Lee, F. | Rothschild, J. A. de | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Leonard, W. | Sexton, T. M. | Sir Charles Edwards and |
| Leslie, J. R. | Shinwell, E. | Mr. Paling. |
| Logan, D. G. | Silkin, L. |
NOES.
| ||
| Acland- Troyte, Lt.- Col. G. J. | Bull, B. B. | Davison, Sir W. H. |
| Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.) | Bullock, Capt. M. | De Chair, S. S. |
| Agnew, Lieut.- Comdr, P. G. | Burgin, Rt. Hon. E. L. | De la Bère, R. |
| Albery, Sir Irving | Burton, Col. H. W. | Denman, Hon. R. D. |
| Alexander, Brig.- Gen. Sir W. | Butcher, H. W. | Denville, Alfred |
| Allen, Col. J. Sandeman (B'knhead) | Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A. | Dodd, J. S. |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. L. C. M. S. | Caine, G. R. Hall- | Doland, G. F. |
| Anderson, Sir A. Garrett (C. of Ldn.) | Campbell, Sir E. T. | Donner, P. W. |
| Anderson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Sc'h Univ's) | Cartland, J. R. H. | Drewe, C. |
| Anstruther-Gray, W. J. | Carver, Major W. H. | Duckworth, Arthur (Shrewsbury) |
| Apsley, Lord | Cary, R. A. | Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side) |
| Assheton, R. | Castlereagh, Viscount | Dugdale, Captain D. L. |
| Astor, Major Hon. J. J. (Dover) | Cayzer, Sir C. W. (City of Chester) | Duggan, H. J. |
| Astor, Viscountess (Plymouth, Sutton) | Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.) | Duncan, J. A. L. |
| Baillie, Sir A. W. M. | Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham) | Dunglass, Lord |
| Balfour, G. (Hampstead) | Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n) | Eastwood, J. F. |
| Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet) | Channon, H. | Eckersley P. T. |
| Balniel, Lord | Chapman, A. (Rutherglen) | Eden, Rt. Hon. A |
| Barrie, Sir C. C. | Chapman, Sir S. (Edinburgh, S.) | Edmondson, Major Sir J. |
| Baxter, A. Beverley | Christie, J. A. | Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E. |
| Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. | Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. | Elliston, Capt. G. S. |
| Beauchamp, Sir B. C. | Clarke, Colonel R. S. (E. Grinstead) | Emery, J. F. |
| Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h) | Carry, Sir Reginald | Emmott, C. E. G. C |
| Beechman, N. A. | Clydesdale, Marquess of | Emrys-Evans, P. V. |
| Beit, Sir A. L. | Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston) | Entwistle, Sir C. F. |
| Bennett, Sir E. N. | Colman, N. C. D. | Errington, E. |
| Blair, Sir R. | Colville, Rt. Hon. John | Erskine-Hill, A. G. |
| Blaker, Sir R. | Conant, Captain R. J. E. | Evans, Colonel A. (Cardiff, S.) |
| Bossom, A. C. | Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S) | Everard, Sir William Lindsay |
| Boulton, W. W. | Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh, W.) | Fildes, Sir H. |
| Bower, Comdr. R. T. | Courthope, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir G. L. | Findlay, Sir E. |
| Boyce, H. Leslie | Cox, H. B. Trevor | Fleming, E. L. |
| Brabner, R. A. | Critchley, A | Fox, Sir G. W. G. |
| Bracken, B. | Croft, Brig.- Gen. Sir H. Page | Furness, S. N. |
| Braithwaite, Major A. N. (Buckrose) | Crooke, Sir J. Smedley | Fyfe, D. P. M. |
| Braithwaite, J. Gurney (Holderness) | Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C. | Gibson, Sir C. G. (Pudsey and Otley) |
| Brats, Sir W. | Cross, R. H. | Gilmour, Lt.- Cot. Rt. Hon. Sir J. |
| Broadbridge, Sir G. T. | Crossley, A. C. | Gledhill, G. |
| Brocklebank, Sir Edmund | Crowder, J. F. E. | Gluckstein, L. H. |
| Brooke, H. (Lewisham, W.) | Cruddas, Col. B. | Glyn, Major Sir R. G. C. |
| Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith) | Culverwell, C. T. | Goldie, N. B. |
| Brown, Brig.- Gen. H. C. (Newbury) | Davidson, Viscountess | Gower, Sir R. V. |
| Browne, A. C. (Belfast, W.) | Davies, C. (Montgomery) | Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral) |
| Grant-Ferris, Flight-Lieutenant | McCorquodale, M. S. | Sandeman, -Sir N. S. |
| Granville, E. L | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. M. (Ron) | Sanderson, Sir F. B. |
| Greene, W. P. C. (Worcaster) | MacDonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) | Schuster, Sir G. E. |
| Gretton, Col. Rt. Hon. J. | Macdonald, Capt. T. (lsle of wight) | Scott, Lord William |
| Gridley, Sir A. B. | McEwen, Capt. J. H. F. | Selley, H. R. |
| Grigg, Sir E. W. M. | McKie, J. H. | Shakespeare, G. H. |
| Grimston, R. V. | Macmillan, H. (Stockton-on-Tees) | Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar) |
| Gritten, W. G. Howard | Macnamara, Lieut.-Colonel J. R. | Shepperson, Sir E. W. |
| Guest, Lieut.-Colonel H. (Drake) | Macquiston, F. A. | Shuts, Colonel Sir J. J. |
| Guest, Maj. Hon. O. (C'mb'rw'll, N.W.) | Magnay, T. | Simmonds, O. E. |
| Guinness, T. L. E. B. | Maitland, Sir Adam | Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A. |
| Gunston, Capt. Sir O. W. | Makins, Brigadier-General Sir Ernest | Smiles, Lieut.-Colonel Sir W. D. |
| Hacking, Rt. Hon. Sir D. H. | Manningham-Buller, Sir M. | Smith, Bracewell (Dulwish) |
| Hambro, A, V. | Markham, S. F. | Smithers, Sir W. |
| Hammersley, S. S. | Marsden, Commander A. | Snadden, W. McN. |
| Hannah, I. C. | Mason, Lt.-Col. Hon. O. K. M. | Somerset. T. |
| Harmon, Sir P. J. H. | Maxwell, Hon. S. A. | Somervell, Rt. Hon. Sir Donald |
| Haslam, Henry (Horncastle) | Medlicott, F. | Somerville, Sir A. A. (Windsor) |
| Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton) | Meller, Sir R. J. (Mitcham) | Southby, Commander Sir A. R. J. |
| Hellgers, Captain F. F. A. | Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth) | Spears, Brigadier-General E. L. |
| Hely-Hutchinson, M. R. | Mills, Sir F. (Leyton, E.) | Spans, W. P. |
| Heneage, Lieut.-Colonal A. P. | Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest) | Stanley, Rt. Han. Oliver (W'm'l'd) |
| Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan- | Mitchell, H. (Brentford and Chin | Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.) |
| Hepworth, J. | Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) | Stewart, William J. (Belfast, S.) |
| Herbert, A. P. (Oxford U.) | Mitcheson, Sir G. G. | Storey, S. |
| Higgs, W. F. | Moore, Lieut.-Colonel Sir T, C. R. | Strauss, H. G. (Norwich) |
| Hoare, Rt. Hen. Sir S. | Moore-Brabazon, Lt.-Col. J. T. C. | Strickland, Captain W. F. |
| Hogg, Hon. Q. McG. | Morgan, R. H. (Worcester, Stourbridge | Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- (N'thw'h) |
| Holdsworth, H. | Morris, J. P. (Salford, N.) | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Holmes, J. S. | Morris-Jones, Sir Henry | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F. |
| Hore-Belisha, Rt. Hon. L. | Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.) | Sutcliffe, H. |
| Horsbrugh, Florence | Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester) | Tate, Mavis C. |
| Howitt, Dr. A. B. | Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J. | Taylor, C. S, (Eastbourne) |
| Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.) | Munro, P. | Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.) |
| Hudson, Rt. Hon. R. S. (Southport) | Nail, Sir J. | Thomas, J. P. L. |
| Hulbert, Squadron-Leader N. J. | Neven-Spance, Major B. H. H. | Thomson, Sir J. D. W. |
| Hume, Sir G. H. | Nicholson, G. (Farnham) | Thorneycroft, G. E. P. |
| Hunloke, H. P. | Nicolson, Hon. H. G. | Thornton-Kemsley, C. N. |
| Hunter, T. | O'Connor, Sir Terence J. | Titchfield, Marquess of |
| Hurd, Sir P. A. | O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh | Touche, G. C. |
| Hutchinson, G. C. | Orr-Ewing, I. L. | Train, Sir J. |
| Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir T. W. H, | Patrick, C. M. | Tree, A. R. L. F. |
| James, Wing-Commander A. W. | Peake, O. | Tryon, Major Rt. Hon. G. C. |
| Jarvis, Sir J. J. | Parkins, W. R. D. | Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L. |
| Jennings, R. | Petherick, M. | Turton, R. H. |
| Jones, Sir G. W. H. (S'k N'w'gt"n | Pickthorn, K. W. M | Wakefield, W. W. |
| Jones, L. (Swansea W.) | Pilkington, R. | Walker-Smith, Sir J. |
| Keeling, E. H. | Plugge, Capt. L. F. | Wallace, Capt. Rt. Hon. Evan |
| Kellett, Major E. O. | Ponsonby, Col. C. E. | Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull) |
| Kerr, H. W. (Oldham) | Porritt, R. W. | Wardlaw-Milne, Sir J. S. |
| Kerr, Sir John Graham (Sco'sh univs.) | Pownall, Lt.-Col. Sir Assheton | Warrender, Sir V. |
| Keyes, Admiral of the Fleet Sir R. | Procter, Major H. A. | Waterhouse, Captain C. |
| Kimball, L. | Radford, E. A. | Watt, Lt.-Col. G. S. Harvie |
| Knox, Major-General Sir A. W. E | Raikes, H. V. A. M. | Wayland, Sir W. A. |
| Lamb, Sir J. O. | Ramsay, Captain A. H. M. | Webbe, Sir W. Harold |
| Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. | Ramsbotham, Rt. Hon. H. | Wells, Sir Sydney |
| Lancaster, Lieut.-Colonel C. G. | Rankin, Sir R. | Whiteley, Major J. P. (Buckingham) |
| Latham, Sir P. | Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin) | Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R. |
| Law, R. K. (Hull, S.W.) | Rawson, Sir Cooper | Williams, C. (Torquay) |
| Lees-Jones, J, | Rayner, Major R. H. | Williams, Sir H. G. (Croydon, 5.) |
| Leech, Sir J. W. | Reed, A. C. (Enter) | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Leighton, Major B. E. P. | Read, Sir H. S. (Aylesbury) | Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir A. T. (Hitchin) |
| Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L. | Reid, J. S. C. (Hillhead) | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G. |
| Levy, T. | Remer, J. R. | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Lewis, O. | Rickards, G. W. (Skipton) | Wise, A. R. |
| Liddall, W. S. | Ropner, Colonel L. | Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount |
| Lindsay, K. H. | Rosbotham, Sir T. | Womerslay, Sir W. J. |
| Lipson, D. L. | Ross, Major Sir R. D. (Londonderry | Wood, Hon. C. I. C. |
| Little, J. | Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridg) | Wragg, H. |
| Llewellin, Colonel J. J. | Rowlands, G. | Wright, Wing-Commander J. A. C. |
| Lloyd, G. W. | Royds, Admiral Sir P. M. R. | York, C. |
| Locker-Lampson, Comdr. O. S. | Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir E. A. | Young, A. S. L. (Partick) |
| Loftus P. C. | Russell, Sir Alexander | |
| Lucas, Major Sir J. M. | Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen) | TELLER FOR THE NOES.— |
| Lyons, A. M. | Salmon, Sir I. | Captain Margesson and Lieut.- |
| Mabane, W. (Huddersfield) | Salt, E. W. | Colonel Kerr. |
| MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G. | Samuel, M. R. A. | |
| M'Connell, Sir J. |
Question put, "That the proposed words be there added."
The House divided: Ayes, 357; Noes, 164.
Division No. 288.]
| AYES.
| [11.12 p.m.
|
| Acland- Troyte, Lt.- Col. G. J. | Culverwell, C. T. | Hunloke, H. P. |
| Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.) | Davidson, Viscountess | Hunter, T. |
| Agnew, Lieut.- Comdr. P. G. | Davies, C. (Montgomery) | Hurd, Sir P. A. |
| Albery, Sir Irving | Davison, Sir W. H. | Hutchinson, G. C. |
| Alexander, Brig.- Gen. Sir W. | De Chair, S. S. | Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir T. W. H. |
| Allen, Col. J. Sandeman (B'knhead) | De la Bère, R. | James, Wing-Commander A. W. H. |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. L. C. M. S. | Denman, Hon. R. D. | Jarvis, Sir J. J. |
| Anderson, Sir A. Garrett (C. of Ldn.) | Denville, Alfred | Jennings, R. |
| Anderson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Sch Univ's | Dodd, J. S. | Jones, Sir C. W. H. (S'k N'w'gt'n) |
| Anstruther-Gray, W. J. | Doland, G. F. | Jones, L. (Swansea WJ |
| Apsley, Lord | Donner, P. W. | Keeling, E. H. |
| Assheton, R. | Drewe, C. | Kellett, Major E. O. |
| Altar, Major Hon. J. J. (Dover) | Duckworth, Arthur (Shrewsbury) | Kerr, H. W. (Oldham) |
| Astor, Viscountess (Plymouth, Sutton)) | Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side) | Kerr, Sir John Graham (Sco'sh Univs.) |
| Baillie, Sir A. W. M. | Dugdale, Captain D. L. | Keyes, Admiral of the Fleet Sir R. |
| Balfour, G. (Hampstead) | Duggan, H. J. | Kimball, L. |
| Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet) | Duncan, J. A. L. | Knox, Major- General Sir A. W. F. |
| Balniel, Lord | Dunglass, Lord | Lamb, Sir J. Q. |
| Barrio, Sir C. C. | Eastwood, J. F. | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. |
| Baxter, A. Beverley | Eckersley, P. T. | Lancaster, Lieut.- Colonel C. G. |
| Beamish, Rear- Admiral T. P. H. | Eden, Rt. Hon. A. | Latham, Sir P. |
| Beauchamp, Sir B. C. | Edmondson, Major Sir J. | Law, R. K. (Hull, S.W.) |
| Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h) | Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E. | Lees-Jones, J. |
| Beechman, N. A. | Elliston, Capt. G. S. | Leech, Sir J. W. |
| Beit, Sir A. L. | Emery, J. F. | Leighton, Major B. E. P. |
| Bennett, Sir E. N. | Emmott, C. E. G. C. | Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L. |
| Blair, Sir R. | Emrys-Evans, P. V. | Levy, T. |
| Blaker, Sir R. | Entwistle, Sir C. F. | Lewis, O. |
| Bossom, A. C. | Errington, E. | Liddall, W. S. |
| Boulton, W. W. | Erskine- Hill, A. G. | Lindsay, K. M. |
| Bower, Comdr. R. T. | Evans, Colonel A. (Cardiff, S.) | Lipson, D. L. |
| Boyce, H. Leslie | Everard, Sir William Lindsay | Little, J. |
| Brabner, R. A. | Flides, Sir H. | Llewellin, Colonel J. J. |
| Bracken, B. | Findlay, Sir E. | Lloyd, G. W. |
| Braithwaite, Major A. N. (Buckrose) | Fleming, E. L. | Locker- Lampson, Comdr. O. S. |
| Braithwaite, J. Gurney (Holderness) | Fox, Sir G. W. G. | Loftus, P. C. |
| Bran, Sir W. | Furness, S N. | Lucas, Major Sir J. M. |
| Broadbridge, Sir G. T. | Fyfe, O. P. M. | Lyons, A. M. |
| Brocklebank, Sir Edmund | Gibson, Sir C. G. (Pudsey and Otley) | Mabane, W. (Huddersfield) |
| Brooke, H. (Lewisham, W.) | Gilmour, Lt.- Col. Rt. Hon. Sir J. | MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G. |
| Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith) | Gledhill, G. | M'Connell, Sir J. |
| Brown, Brig.- Gen. H. C. (Newbury) | Gluckstein, L. H. | McCorquodale, M. S. |
| Browne, A. C. (Belfast, W.) | Glyn, Major Sir R. G. C. | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. M. (Ross) |
| Bull, B. B. | Goldie, N. B. | MacDonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) |
| Bullock, Capt. M. | Gower, Sir R. V. | Macdonald, Capt. P. (Isle of Wight) |
| Burgin, Rt. Hon. E. L. | Graham, Captain A. C. (wirral) | McEwen, Capt. J. H. F. |
| Burton, Col. H. W. | Grant-Ferris, Flight- Lieutenant R. | McKie, J. H. |
| Butcher, H. W. | Granville, E. L. | Macmillan, H. (Stockton- on-Tees) |
| Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A. | Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester) | Macnamara, Lieut.- Colonel J. R. J. |
| Caine, G. R. Hall- | Gratton, Col. Rt. Hon. J. | Macquisten, F. A. |
| Campbell, Sir E. T. | Gridley, Sir A. B. | Magnay, T. |
| Cartland, J. R. H. | Grigg, Sir E. W. M. | Maitland, Sir Adam |
| Carver, Major W. H. | Grimston, R. V. | Makins, Brigadier-General Sir Ernest |
| Cary, R. A. | Gritten, W. G. Howard | Manningham-Buller, Sir M. |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Guest, Lieut.- Colonel H. (Drake) | Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. |
| Cayzer, Sir C. W. (City of Chester) | Guest, Maj. Hon. O. (C'mb'rw'll, N.W.) | Markham, S. F. |
| Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.) | Guinness, T. L. E. B. | Marsden, Commander A. |
| Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham) | Gunston, Copt. Sir D. W. | Mason, Lt.- Col. Hon. G. K. M. |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n) | Hacking, Rt. Hon. Sir D. H. | Maxwell, Hon. S. A. |
| Channon, H. | Hambro, A. V. | Medllcott, F. |
| Chapman, A. (Rutherglen) | Hammersley, S. S. | Meller, Sir R. J. (Mitcham) |
| Chapman, Sir S. (Edinburgh, S.) | Hannah, I. C. | Mellor, Sir j. S. P. (Tamworth) |
| Christie, J. A. | Hannon, Sir P. J. H. | Mills, Sir F. (Leyton, E.) |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. | Haslam, Henry (Horncastle) | Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest) |
| Clarke, Colonel R. S. (E. Grinstead) | Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton) | Mitchell, H. (Brentford and Chiswlek) |
| Clarry, Sir Reginald | Heilgers, Captain F. F. A. | Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) |
| Clydesdale, Marquess of | Hely- Hutchinson, M. R. | Mitcheson, Sir G. G. |
| Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston) | Heneage, Lieut.- Colonel A. P. | Moore, Lieut.- Col. Sir T. C. R. |
| Colman, N. C. D. | Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan- | Moore- Brabazon, Lt.- Col. J. T. C. |
| Colville, Rt. Hon. John | Hepworth, J. | Morgan, R. H. (Worcester, Stourbrigde) |
| Conant, Captain R. J. E. | Herbert, A. P. (Oxford U.) | Morris, J. P. (Salford, N.) |
| Cooke, J. O. (Hammersmith, S.) | Higgs, W. F. | Morris- Jones, Sir Henry |
| Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh, W.) | Hoare, Rt. Hon. Sir S. | Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.) |
| Courthope, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir G. L. | Hogg, Hon. Q. McG. | Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester) |
| Cox, H. B. Trevor | Holdsworth, H. | Muirhead, Lt.- Col. A. J. |
| Critchley, A. | Holmes, J. S. | Nail, Sir J. |
| Croft, Brig.- Gen. Sir H. Page | Hore- Belisha, Rt. Hon. L. | Neven- Spence, Major B. H. H. |
| Crooke, Sir J. Smedley | Horsbrugh, Florence | Nicholson, G. (Farnham) |
| Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C. | Howitt, Dr, A. B. | Nicolson, Hn. H. Q. |
| Cross, R. H. | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.) | O'Connor, Sir Terence J. |
| Crossley, A. C. | Hudson, Rt. Hon. R. S, (Southport) | O'Neill, RI. Hon. Sir Hugh |
| Crowder, J. F. E. | Hulbert, Squadron-Leader N. J. | Orr-Ewing, I. L. |
| Craddas, Col. B. | Hume, Sir G. H. | Patrick, C. M. |
| Peake, O. | Schuster, Sir G. E. | Titchfield, Marquess of |
| Perkins, W. B. P. | Scott, Lord William | Touche, G. C. |
| Petherick, M. | Selley, H. R. | Train, Sir J. |
| Pickthorn, K. W. M. | Shakespeare, G. H. | Tree, A. R. L. F. |
| Pilkington, R. | Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar) | Tryon, Major Rt. Hon. G. C. |
| Plugge, Capt. L. F. | Shepperson, Sir E. W. | Tufnell, Lieut-Commander R. L. |
| Ponsonby, Col. C. E. | Shute, Colonel Sir J. J. | Turton, R. H. |
| Porritt, R. W. | Simmonds, O. E. | Wakefield, W. W. |
| Pownall, LI.- Col. Sir Assheton | Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A. | Walker-Smith, Sir J. |
| Procter, Major H. A. | Smiles, Lieut.- Colonel Sir W. D. | Wallace, Capt. Rt. Hon. Euan |
| Radford, E. A. | Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich) | Ward, Lieut.- Col. Sir A. L. (Hull) |
| Raikes, H. V. A. M. | Smithers, Sir W. | Wardlaw-Milne, Sir J. S. |
| Ramsay, Captain A. H. M. | Snadden, W. McN. | Warrender, Sir V. |
| Ramsbotham, Rt. Hon. H. | Somerset, T. | Waterhouse, Captain C. |
| Rankin, Sir R. | Somervell, Rt. Hon. Sir Donald | Watt, Lt.- Col. G. S. Harvie |
| Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin) | Somerville, Sir A. A. (Windsor) | Wayland, Sir W. A |
| Rawson, Sir Cooper | Southby, Commander Sir A. R. J. | Webbe, Sir W. Harold |
| Rayner, Major R. H. | Spears, Brigadier-General E. L. | Wells, Sir Sydney |
| Reed, A. C. (Exeter) | Spans, W. P. | Whiteley, Major J. P. (Buckingham) |
| Reed, Sir H. S. (Aylesbury) | Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'l'd) | Wickham, Lt.- Col. E. T. R. |
| Reid, J. S. C. (Hillhead) | Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.) | Williams, C. (Torquay) |
| Remer, J. R. | Stewart, William J. (Belfast, S) | Williams, Sir H. G. (Croydon, S.) |
| Rickards, G. W. (Skipton) | Storey, S. | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Ropner, Colonel L. | Strauss, H. G. (Norwich) | Wilson, Lt.- Col. Sir A. T. (Hitchin) |
| Rosbotham, Sir T. | Strickland, Captain W. F. | Windsor-diva, Lieut.- Colonel G. |
| Ron, Major Sir R, D. (Londonderry) | Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- (N'thw'h) | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge) | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) | Wise, A. R. |
| Rowlands, G. | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F. | Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount |
| Royds, Admiral Sir P. M. R. | Sutcliffe, H. | Womersley, Sir W. J. |
| Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir E. A. | Talker, Sir R. I. | Wood, Hon. C. I. C. |
| Russell, Sir Alexander | Tate, Mavis C. | Wragg, H. |
| Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen) | Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne) | Wright, Wing-Commander J. A. C. |
| Salmon, Sir I. | Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.) | York, C. |
| Salt, E. W. | Thomas, J, P. L. | Young, A. S. L. (Partick) |
| Samuel, M. R. A. | Thomson, Sir J. D. W. | |
| Sandeman, Sir N. S. | Thorneycroft, G. E. P. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Sanderson, Sir F. B. | Thornton-Kemsley, C. N. | Lieut-Colonel Kerr and Mr. |
| Munro. |
NOES.
| ||
| Acland, Sir R. T. D. | Frankel, D. | Leslie, J. R. |
| Adams, D. (Consett) | Gallacher, W. | Logan, D. G. |
| Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.) | Gardner, B. W. | Lunn, MT. |
| Adamson, Jennie L. (Dartford) | Garro Jones, G. M | Macdonald, G. (Ince) |
| Adamson, W. M. | George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd (Carm'v'n) | McEntee, V. La T. |
| Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.) | George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) | McGhee, H. G. |
| Ammon, C. G, | George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey) | MacLaren, A. |
| Anderson, F. (Whitehaven) | Gibbins, J. | Maclean, N. |
| Banfield, J.W. | Gibson, R. (Greenock) | MacMillan, M. (Western Isles) |
| Barnes, A. J. | Graham, D. M. (Hamilton) | Mainwaring, W. H. |
| Barr, J. | Green, W. H. (Deptford) | Mander, G. le M. |
| Bartlett, C. V. O. | Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. | Marshall, F. |
| Batty, J. | Grenfell, O. R. | Mathers, G. |
| Beaumont, H, (Batley) | Griffith, f. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.) | Maxton, J. |
| Bellenger, F. J. | Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth) | Messer, F. |
| Benn, Rt. Hon. W. W. | Griffith, J. (Llanelly) | Milner, Major J. |
| Benson, G. | Groves, T. E. | Montague, F. |
| Bevan, A. | Guest, Dr. L. H. (Islington, N.) | Morgan, J. (York, W.R., Doncaster) |
| Broad, F. A. | Hall, G. H. (Aberdare) | Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.) |
| Bromfield, W. | Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) |
| Brown, C. (Mansfield) | Hardie, Agnes | Nathan, Colonel H. L. |
| Burke, W. A. | Harris, Sir P. A. | Naylor, T. E. |
| Cape, T. | Harvey, T. E. (Eng. Univ's.) | Noel- Baker, P. J. |
| Charleton, H. C. | Hayday, A. | Oliver, G. H. |
| Chater, D. | Henderson, A. (Kingswinford) | Parkinson, J. A. |
| Cluse, W. S. | Henderson, J. (Ardwick) | Pearson, A. |
| Cocks, F. S. | Henderson, T. (Tradeston) | Pethick-Lawrence, Rt. Hon. F. W. |
| Collindridge, F. | Hills, A. (Pontefract) | Poole, C. C. |
| Cove, W. G. | Hollins, A. | Price, M. P. |
| Cripps, Hon. Sir Stafford | Hopkin, D. | Pritt, D. N. |
| Daggar, G. | Horabin, T. L. | Quibell, D. J.K. |
| Dalton, H. | Jagger, J. | Rathbone, Eleanor (English Univ's.) |
| Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill) | Jenkins, A. (Pontypool) | Richards, R. (Wrexham) |
| David, R. J. (Westhoughton) | Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath) | Ridley, G. |
| Davies, S. O. (Merthyr) | John, W. | Riley, B. |
| Day, H. | Jones, A. C. (Shipley) | Ritson, J. |
| Dobbie, W. | Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T. | Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.) |
| Dunn, E. (Rother Valley) | Kirby, B. V. | Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens) |
| Ede, J. C. | Kirkwood, D. | Rothschild, J. A. de |
| Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.) | Lansbury, Rt. Hon. G. | Sexton, T. M. |
| Edwards, N. (Caerphilly) | Lathan, G. | Shinwell, E. |
| Evans, D. O. (Cardigan) | Lawson, J. J. | Silkin, L. |
| Evans, E. (Univ. of Wales) | Lee, F. | Silverman, S. S. |
| Fletcher, Lt.- Comdr. R. T. H. | Leonard, W. | Simpson, F. B. |
| Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (C'thn's) | Thorne, W. | Whiteley, W. (Blaydon) |
| Sloan, A. | Thurtle, E, | Wilkinson, Ellen |
| Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe) | Tinker, J. J. | Williams, E. J. (Ogmore) |
| Smith, E. (Stake) | Tomlinson, G. | Williams, T. (Don Valley) |
| Smith, Rt. Hon. H. B. Less- (K'ly) | Viant, S. P. | Wilmot, John |
| Smith, T. (Normanton) | Walkden, A. G. | Windsor, W. (Hull, C.) |
| Sorensen, R. W. | Walker, J. | Woods, G. S. (Finsbury) |
| Stephen, C. | Watkins, F. C. | Young, Sir R. (Newton) |
| Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le Sp'ng) | Watson, W. McL. | |
| Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.) | Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. J. C. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Summerskill, Dr. Edith | Westwood, J. | Sir Charles Edwards and Mr. |
| Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth) | White, H. Graham | Paling. |
Main Question, as amended, put, and agreed to.
Resolved,
"That this House welcomes the announcement that His Majesty's Government intend to institute without delay a thorough investigation into old age pensions with a view to reaching prompt conclusions, and expresses the hope that without placing undue burdens on the Exchequer some improvements will be found to be practicable."
Supply
REPORT [ 26th July.]
Navy Supplementary Estimate, 1939
Additional Number For The Navy
Resolution reported,
"That an additional number, not exceeding 12,000 Officers, Seamen, Boys and Royal Marines, be employed for the Sea Service, borne on the books of His Majesty's Ships and at the Royal Marine Divisions, - for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1940, beyond the number already provided in the Navy Estimates for the year."
Resolution agreed to.
Isle Of Man (Customs) Bill
Considered in Committee, and reported, without Amendment; read the Third time, and passed.
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
ADJOURNMENT.
Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—( Captain Margesson,)
Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-eight Minutes after Eleven o'Clock