asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that many thousands of miners are idle in the county of Durham; that most of them have been idle some months; and what he proposes to do to employ these men?

My right hon. Friend indicated, in his answer of 19th November, the steps that are being taken to find employment for unemployed miners in Durham. Arrangements are also being made, after consultation with the industry, to call up further men from the industry so far as this can be done consistent with the essential needs of the areas.

Can the hon. Gentleman give a guarantee that men who are unemployed in that county will be given the first chance of employment in factories, instead of bringing in new labour which has not been in industry before? I am asking for a definite statement. What the hon. Gentleman has stated is rather indefinite.

The hon. Gentleman knows that the policy of the Ministry is always to employ people in the locality before bringing in others from outside.

asked the Minister of Labour whether, as a result of the special investigations made by panels of employers and workpeople into the hard core of unemployment, he has come to the conclusion that a certain number of unemployed are definitely incapable of further employment; whether he can give any estimate of that number; and whether he will consider the proposal that these men should be retired from the labour market with a pension?

My right hon. Friend hopes to be able to make a statement shortly on the results of the review of the register by the panels of employers and workpeople, but I would like to correct any impression that the object of this review is to discover who are "unemployable." The main purpose is a constructive effort to see how many men can be brought into the war effort and by what means. The third part of the Question does not therefore arise in this connection.

In the interrogations made is there not one question which refers to men who are incapable of further employment? That has to be answered, and it is on the result of those answers that my Question arises.

In these days, when the demand for labour is increasing at such a pace, it is often the case that a man who was previously thought not to be employable finds employment.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he will make an investigation into the reasons why the war machine is failing to absorb labour as rapidly as the civilian section of industry is releasing it, so that, in spite of the increasing demand for munitions there are still 750,000 workers unemployed?

I have nothing to add to what my right hon. Friend said on the subject during yesterday's Debate.

Surely that is a long answer to a very short question.

asked the Minister of Labour whether his attention has been drawn to the present unemployment figures, which reveal a startling lack of expansion in our war effort; and whether he proposes to hold an exhaustive inquiry into the position?

I would refer the hon. Member to the statement made by my right hon. Friend in yesterday's Debate.

asked the Minister of Labour to what extent different Ministries have made use of the Central Register for filling special war-time vacancies; and what arrangements he contemplates for extending this avenue of employment in future?

The total number of placings in Government Departments up to 31st October, 1940, was 8,864. A complete analysis is not available of the placings in separate Government Departments, but I am sending my hon. Friend a copy of a table which was prepared for the Select Committee on National Expenditure. The question of the use of the Central Register by Government Departments was dealt with in the Eighth Report of the Select Committee (paragraph 9). The Committee found that "in general the Departments have used the Central Register" and that "exceptions to the rule have for the most part been confined to the early stages .of the war."

Is it proposed to make use of the machinery of the Central Register in connection with the close liaison between the Ministry of Labour and the Foreign Office for the supply of secondary school boys for the Foreign Office?

That is another question.

Is there any considerable number of those on the Central Register who are in fact without active employment?

There is a certain number on the Central Register who are without employment, but it is chiefly a register of those already in employment but who are available for more important work if their services are required by the Government.

The hon. Gentleman has promised to send a report to the hon. Member. Will it be available, to the House?

The report has already been published. No doubt the hon. Member has had it, though perhaps he has not yet had time to read it.

My question arose out of the second part of the Question on the Paper, whether arrangements have been come to for extending this avenue of employment in future. Will this be used in connection with the Foreign Office?

The Foreign Office, like other Departments, is under an obligation to go to the Central Register when it needs additional staff. I have no reason to think that the Foreign Office is not ready to follow the general rule.

asked the Minister of Labour if he will give the number of Durham miners sent to work on a certain ordnance factory in Scotland of which he has been informed, during the past three months, and what type of work they are doing?

Three hundred and fifty-five miners from Durham have been transferred during the last three months to the contract in question, for general labouring work.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in Scotland generally, and in Glasgow in particular, there is a great number of unemployed men who have had experience of this type of work, and will he implement the promise of the Minister not to send men to areas where their labour can interfere with local labour?

I am sure the Divisional Controller of the Ministry of Labour would not have taken all the difficult steps involved in transferring men from Durham if there had been men available.

Will the hon. Gentleman indicate how many unemployed we have in Scotland who have been used to this type of work?

The hon. Gentleman cannot answer that without notice.

May I point out that the Minister is practically asserting that this transfer would not have taken place had there been available unemployed?

He is taking it for granted.

Will the hon. Gentleman investigate the question further?

The question is one on which we no doubt have the fullest particulars, but I still stand by my previous answer.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I will raise the question on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Labour whether his attention has been called to the constant practice of evacuated women to send for their husbands who, at least in some cases, leave their work without finding any alternative job; and what action does he propose to take.

I am not aware of any widespread practice of this nature. When a worker leaves a job of national importance and he is needed for that work, the officers of the Department do their best to see that he goes back and exercise compulsory powers in appropriate cases.

Is my hon. Friend aware that there have been cases of people in Bilston who apparently have left jobs in London and cannot be found work in Bilston?

I am not aware of that. If my hon. Friend will send me particulars I will examine them.

asked the Minister of Labour how many centres for training munition workers have now been opened; how many are working on the three shift basis; how many instructors are being employed; what is the rate of training per four months; and whether, in view of the fact that more than 1,000,000 extra workers will be required in the munition industries by next August, he is taking steps to increase the number of instructors and training centres.

I would refer my hon. Friend to the full answer my right hon. Friend gave on this subject on 19th November in reply to a question by the hon. Member for Wallsend (Miss Ward).

asked the Minister of Labour how many reports he has received from the welfare committee set up by him regarding canteen and social conditions of industrial workers in Scotland, particularly those employed on war production; when the last report was received; and whether he is satisfied that satisfactory progress has been made?

The Scottish Consultative Committee of voluntary organisations does not make formal reports. It was set up to give general advice to the Minister on questions of the welfare of industrial workers outside the factory. Investigation into local needs are made by the welfare officers of the Ministry of Labour and National Service, of whom four have been appointed so far in Scotland. Reports from these officers have resulted in improvements being made in lodging, feeding and transport, in reception of tranferred workpeople, in recreation and entertainment. Satisfactory progress is being made, though much remains to be done.

Is it the intention of the Department to publish a report with regard to this important work that is taking place?

There is no intention of that kind at present.

Will the Ministry give the question consideration, in view of the fact that Scottish Members are receiving complaints that very little is being done?

I will certainly consider it.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he has considered the formation of an aliens labour corps to be available for urgent work of national importance, namely, the building of shelters, urgent building work, repair work, transport service, etc.; and whether he is now in a position to make a statement on the employment of aliens for such work?

A special International Labour Branch has been set up in the Ministry of Labour, but no seperate labour corps has been formed. Every effort, however, is being made to utilize the services of foreigners on work such as my right hon. Friend has in mind, including work connected with the repair of air-raid damage and the clearance of debris. Already a considerable number of foreigners of Allied and other nationalities have been placed by my Department in work of this description in London, and my officers are endeavouring to increase this number as rapidly as possible, both in London and elsewhere.

Will my hon. Friend take steps to see that the position of British workers is not prejudiced by the employment of foreigners?

In view of the special mobility of this sort of labour, would it not be possible for the Government to have a corps of this kind capable of being transported from one place to another?

asked the Minister of Labour what arrangements he proposes to make for the hearing of appeals against decisions of the North Western Local Tribunal for Conscientious Objectors, in view of the fact that Sir Miles Ewart Mitchell has been appointed to the Northern Division of the Appellate Tribunal which will hear appeals against the North Western Local Tribunal of which he was a former member?

Arrangements have been made for appeals from decisions in which Sir Miles Mitchell participated as a member of the North Western local tribunal to be heard by a Division of the Appellate Tribunal other than that of which he is now a member.

May we take it for granted that Sir Miles Mitchell will not judge cases in which he has been a party already?

That is quite right.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he intends publishing the results of the cost-of-living investigations?

asked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of the fact that there are many agreements between employers' organisations and trade unions by which wages are fixed in relation to the figures of the cost of living, he will now direct that the result of the recent inquiry will be expedited and published?

It is proposed to publish the preliminary results of the inquiry into family budgets in the December number of the "Ministry of Labour Gazette."

Is it intended to take any action as a result of the investigation?

That is another question.

Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that the existing index is absolutely antiquated and inappropriate and that speed ought to be used in order to get results as early as possible?

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is now prepared to ask this House to modify the provisions of Regulation i8b of the Defence (General) Regulations, 1939, now that there has been ample time to complete all necessary inquiries and to take all urgent action, for which the present very exceptional powers provided?

No, Sir; in my view the powers conferred by this Regulation are essential to the security of the country, and the time has not yet come when we can afford to relax any security precautions.

In view of that answer, I desire to give notice that I shall endeavour to raise this Question on an early occasion.

asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that at the Palace internment camp, Isle of Man, for Italian refugees, the internees are completely under the domination of an aggressive Fascist minority, who have appointed themselves to all posts of responsibility, threaten those who have volunteered for the Auxiliary Military Pioneer Corps, intimidate all who have not got Fascist sympathies and have recently beaten-up one internee whose anti-Fascist cartoon appeared in a Sunday newspaper; and will he now implement the assurance frequently given, that the Fascist and anti-Fascist internees shall be separated?

asked the Home Secretary why Italian Fascists and anti-Fascists were still, on 1st November, being interned together in the Palace internment camp at Douglas, with the result that Signor Cosomati, a well-known cartoonist, whose anti-Mussolini cartoons had been re-published in the English Press, was on that date attacked and severely beaten by two Fascists in the camp; and whether disciplinary action has been taken against them and on what date?

It is, I regret to say, the case that an internee named Cosomati was assaulted in the Palace internment camp at Douglas on 1st November, because of a cartoon published in a Sunday newspaper—without, I am informed, his permission. Cosomati failed to identify his assailants, but as a result of the inquiry held by the camp authorities two internees were, on 13th November, sentenced to 21 days' detention in cells for having instigated the attack. The segregation of Italian internees who could definitely be classified as Fascists had to await the provision of sufficient accommodation for this purpose. The opening of a new camp at Douglas enabled it to be effected on 14th November. My information does not confirm the allegations by the hon. Member for North Lambeth (Mr. G. Strauss) about the conduct of the Palace camp, and as those allegations constitute a very serious reflection on those in charge of the camp, I should be glad if my hon. Friend will furnish me with the information on which he bases his statements.

While I will certainly give the right hon. Gentleman that information, may we take it quite definitely that now refugees from Fascism who are in this country will not be put into camps where they will be exposed to assaults from Fascists?

Everything that can be done to prevent disturbances at the camps will certainly be done, and, moreover, it is the policy to segregate Nazis from anti-Nazis, and so on. Upon the other hand, I do hope that the majority of anti-Nazis will hold their ground, will do something. Physical assault is one matter, but in the matter of contagion of opinion, I hope the anti-Nazis will do their share of propaganda.

In this camp the anti-Nazis are a very small minority and the others are very aggressive. There is a much larger Fascist group in the camp, and it is impossible for the anti-Fascists to hold their ground.

That was why I used the term "Nazis." I appreciate that, in the case of the Italian Fascists, the situation is rather as my hon. Friend has stated.

asked the Home Secretary whether he can inform this House about the arrest and detention of Richard Weininger; and whether any charge has been made against him?

In view of information raising doubts about the reliability of this alien, it was necessary on security grounds to order his detention under Article 12 (5A) of the Aliens Order. Mr. Weininger's case will be considered by the appropriate tribunal.

Is there any connection betwen the detention of this man and the matters for which the hon. Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Boothby) is appearing before a Committee of this House?

rose —

asked the Home Secretary how many French, Polish, Belgian or Czech soldiers who fought in France are now under detention in prison and also in internment camps in this country?

Apart from one special case, the general policy has been not to use the Home Secretary's powers for the detention of members of Allied Forces but to leave it to the military authorities of the Allied Forces to take any disciplinary action that may be needed—unless, in some exceptional case, the detention of an individual should be found necessary on security grounds. If my hon. Friend has any particular cases in mind and will give me particulars, I will be glad to look into them.

I am sorry, but I could not understand the sense of that reply. Does it mean that, apart from this one case, no soldiers of Allied nationality are kept in internment or under detention, except at the request of their own military authorities?

It may be so. It may be at the request of the military authorities or by independent action through the services at my command; but, generally speaking, difficulties among Allied soldiers are dealt with by the Allied military authorities in this country.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I can furnish him with particulars of 20 or 30 soldiers, and that I do not believe that in many cases information has been furnished to their consul? Will the right hon. Gentleman look at the particulars?

I have already said that there are individual cases. I think that must be so.

asked the Home Secretary whether any compensation will be paid to interned aliens rescued from the "Arandora Star" for the loss of their clothing and other possessions; and whether, if this has not already been conceded, it will be conceded at least in the cases of those who are not prisoners of war or A category internees?

I do not think that any compensation for the losses mentioned can be paid from British funds, as these losses were due to enemy action.

Is there not a responsibility upon the Government, owing to a number of these men having been sent by mistake?

The Government acted within their power. There were one or two cases in which, as I have said, compensation will be paid, but they were very exceptional. The Government did act within their power in deporting these aliens to another country, and I think it would be dangerous to put them in a position of some privilege as compared with the British Mercantile Marine, who may be subjected to similar risks.

Are we to understand that members of the British Mercantile Marine would not, in such cases, be entitled to any compensation? Would they not be entitled to compensation through military or naval provision?

They would be entitled to the customary provision, but I do not think they would be entitled to compensation in the specific way indicated in the hon. Lady's Question.

asked the Home Secretary what decision has been taken following the Advisory Committee's report in the case of Mr. Pretzlik?

I am not yet in a position to come to a decision. As a result of the hearing of this case by the Advisory Committee, I think certain further inquiries are desirable.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that in this case there has been a very long delay, which is unfair to the man's former employés and to his sons who are serving in the R.A.F.? Can he not do something to expedite this case?

The responsibility for the delay at the moment is my own. I received a report from the Advisory Committee, and I required certain additional information before I could come to a decision upon it.

asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been drawn to the serious delays which are taking place in dealing with appeals and in announcing the result of appeals for the release of internees classified i8b; and whether, in order to prevent possible grave injustice by continued unmerited detention, he will take steps to expedite action in these cases?

asked the Home Secretary what progress is being made by the Advisory Committee in hearing applications from persons detained under Defence Regulation i8b; and whether it is now possible, as a result of the sifting of cases by this committee, to release a certain number of the persons so detained, subject, if necessary, to conditions and restrictions?

I shall make a statement on these two Questions later.

At the end of Questions —

Up to the end of May the number of persons detained under Regulation 18B was small, and the two advisory committees then in existence, one for England and Wales and one for Scotland, were able to cope with the work without difficulty. In June and July, 1,262 persons were detained under this Regulation, including persons associated with the British Union of Fascists, persons of Italian origin or associations and other persons of hostile associations. To enable the Committee for England and Wales to deal with this large and sudden increase of work, its membership was enlarged so that it could sit in several divisions. Unfortunately, there were some inevitable delays in the work of the committee, whose premises were damaged by enemy action, and fresh accommodation had to be found for them. A further step taken to hasten the work was the appointment of separate committees to deal with persons of Italian origin. There are now two committees in Scotland of which one deals with persons of Italian origin, and a committee in England dealing with persons of Italian origin, in addition to three divisions of the committee of which Mr. Norman Birkett is chairman. These divisions sit continuously, and steps are also being taken to establish a fourth division. These several committees have now heard a very large number of cases. Rapid progress has been made in the last two months, and it is hoped that the arrears will be disposed of in the course of a few weeks.

As regards the suggestion that after the hearing of cases there is delay in announcing the Home Secretary's decision, first, the committee are not always in a position to make a report immediately after the hearing—further inquiries may be necessary—and secondly, when the report of the committee has been presented, although in many cases my decision is given without delay, this is not always possible. Decisions which may result in the continued internment of persons for long periods ought not to be taken without careful consideration, and as regards certain cases general questions of principle arise which I have to consider in relation to a whole group of similar cases.

With regard to the suggestion of my hon. Friend the Member for the Park Division of Sheffield (Mr. Lathan), that as a result persons necessarily suffer "unmerited detention," I would point out that if a decision is taken to release an individual this does not necessarily mean that he was wrongly detained. As regards, for example, persons detained because of their activities in connection with the British Union, there is no doubt that for the purpose of suppressing this potentially dangerous organisation their detention was justified. The question, however, which I have now to consider is whether there are cases in which continued detention is no longer necessary for the public safety.

As regards the more responsible leaders of the Union, no question has arisen as to the necessity for their continued detention. But as regards many of the minor officials the question of release depends partly on certain general considerations and partly on an estimate of the character of the individual and of his probable behaviour if released. The Advisory Committee inform me that their examination of many of these cases shows that the order making illegal activities in promotion of the British Union has made a great change in the situation. Many of those who have come before the Committee have protected, and the Committee believe have protested truthfully, that had this order, been in existence at an early date they would have discontinued their connection with the Union. Moreover, examination of individual cases shows that many of these people have little understanding of the aims and policy of the Union, and sometimes that their understanding of any subject is limited. Some of them appear to be dupes who were attracted to the Union for various reasons but had no sympathy with its subversive aims or antiwar policy, and the conclusion I have reached after examining many of these cases is that there are amongst them a number who can now be safely released. Each case must, of course, be considered individually, and release can only be authorised if after considering the Committee's report I am satisfied that detention is no longer necessary for public safety.

Will there be an opportunity to debate the statement; and will my right hon. Friend ameliorate the conditions in which many of these internees live?

That is a question which should be addressed to the Prime Minister or raised through the usual channels.

While thanking my right hon. Friend for the information which he has given, might I ask whether I am not correct in saying that Regulation i8b does not relate solely to those who have been associated with the British Union? Is it not a fact that, both in cases of people of British nationality and of friendly aliens, there has been four or five months' delay in dealing with their appeals, and in announcing the results of their appeals? In such circumstances does he not see that unmerited detention of the character to which I have referred is possible?

My hon. Friend is quite right. A considerable number of cases are dealt with under the Regulation which are not connected with the British Union, and some of which concern people of opposite convictions. The Home Secretary, in exercising his powers under the Order, has to make an individual detention and, ultimately, an individual release. There has been delay, some of it necessary in the public interest. My hon. Friend can be assured that I am doing all I can to speed up the machinery for considering these cases.

Is the Home Secretary aware of the budget of letters from British subjects, including an hon. and gallant Member of this House who has been detained, which have reached me and other hon. Members, showing that the average period before a case is heard under the Regulation is not less than 12 weeks, and that when the case is heard no indication is given of the charge under which the person is detained? Will my right hon. Friend consider reducing that period to not longer than one month; and is it not possible to inform these people of the charges that may be made against them?

I cannot be sure of getting the period down to one month; but I am increasing the number of committees, and I will do my best. T was not prepared to come to a general conclusion as to the policy to be followed on the British Union cases until I had enough samples before me to enable me to see what the problem was. Therefore, there was on my part some deliberate delay, in order that I might be able to come to my conclusions. My general conclusion about them is that a fair proportion of them are not mentally of a high standard.

Is the Home Secretary not aware that there is great delay in getting these cases before the Advisory Committee, and that a number of people have written to me and to other hon. Members urging that the hearing of these cases should be accelerated?

I will do all I can to accelerate them, but it must not be thought that when a person writes to a Member of Parliament he can go straight before a committee. Other things must happen, in order that the committees may have the facts before them. I entirely agree that there have been undesirable delays, and I will do everything I can to accelerate the hearings of the cases.

In how many cases where the committees advised release has the Home Secretary failed to accept their recommendations?

Speaking from recollection, I do not think that there has been one so far. There have been cases where I have asked for further consideration or further information.

Will the Home Secretary see that Fascists are not put into the same places of detention with anti-Fascists?

My hon. Friend may be sure of that.

Will the Home Secretary put them into prison with Communists?

Has the Home Secretary given any consideration to the wide number of complaints which many of us have received, and which no doubt he has himself received, about the inadequacy of the information given to the internee as to the reasons for his detention? If he were given more information, would it not put him in a better position to defend himself before the committee?

That must be a matter for consideration. It is not always desirable that the internee should be told the whole story about himself. There must be some discretion. I am sorry, but this is not normal legal procedure. It cannot be normal legal procedure, and it ought not to be normal legal procedure in time of war. When the internee is brought before the Advisory Committee the committee is perfectly free to exercise its discretion in giving full information to the internee.

asked the Home Secretary whether he will look into the case of Mr. and Mrs. Israel Rich, an elderly Jewish couple of strong anti-Nazi views, resident in Tottenham for over 40 years, who were interned in the Isle of Man; and, as Israel Rich was released seven weeks ago, and is now residing again in Tottenham and is seriously ill, whether he will arrange for the immediate release of his wife?

I regret that in the short time which has elapsed since I received notice of this Question, it has not been possible to comply with my hon. Friend's request, but I am having inquiries made and will communicate with him as soon as possible.

asked the Home Secretary on what principle the 60 victims of Nazi oppression have been collected at Huyton camp, where they are subject to the camp regulations organised by the Nazi sympathisers; and why they have not been separated?

Steps have been taken to give effect so far as practicable to the principle that those who are known to be anti-Nazis shall be separated from those who are known to be Nazi sympathisers, but there are individuals who cannot be labelled with certainty as belonging to either of these groups. I think my hon. Friend's suggestion must be due to some misapprehension, but if he will send me the information on which his Question is based, I shall be glad to look into the matter.

Having regard to the fact that there is plenty of room in the Huyton camp, there should be no difficulty there with regard to accommodation.

Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us why it is necessary to intern anti-Nazis?

Anti-Nazis were not interned as such. There was a general internment of aliens with the general consent of this House. It was our duty, when we had interned them, to classify them as best we could, and that work is now going on.

asked the Home Secretary when the application for the release of Heinrich Allina, a Social Democrat refugee from Austria, is likely to be considered; whether he is aware that Heinrich Allina refuses to apply for release on medical grounds; and whether, in view of the past hardship in a Nazi concentration camp endured by this internee and his strong anti-Nazi record, he will expedite consideration of his case?

Instructions have already been issued for this man's release from internment under Category 19 of the White Paper.

asked the Home Secretary how many internees in Canada have applied for consideration of their release; how many of these applications have been heard; how many have been released or have had intimation of their release; and how many have been able to return to this country?

I am taking steps to obtain these figures, and I will send them to my hon. Friend as soon as they are available.

Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that reasonable progress is being made in regard to the release of these men in Canada who are strong anti-Nazis?

It is difficult, because it is a long-distance problem. I have, however, sent a special officer over for the purpose of helping on the work.

In view of the large number of Questions which have been put on this point, it is evident that no one desires genuine anti-Nazis to be interned. But may not an anti-Nazi facade be used to cloak activities detrimental to the interests of this country?

I am aware of that, and there have been a limited number of cases that do compel us to be cautious.

But apart from that, many genuine anti-Nazis have been interned.

asked the Home Secretary whether he will consider making a regulation under the Defence of the Realm Act giving greater control to the Home Office over chief constables throughout the country, with a view to securing better co-ordination in connection with the policy of internment and other matters during the period of the war?

The administration by the police of the Government policy for the internment and control of aliens is already co-ordinated by instructions issued from the Home Office to chief officers of police. As regards other matters, Defence Regulation 39 gives the Home Secretary wide powers, to exercise any necessary control over police forces for the purposes of the war.

Is not my right hon. Friend aware that there has been the widest possible variation in the actions of chief constables in different parts of the country, and will he not, for wartime purposes at any rate, take powers to exercise authority from the centre?

I have the powers already, and I can give what directions to the police I like, but I will certainly look into the point raised and see whether I can do anything to get equality of administration.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a great many of the suggestions—they cannot be called instructions—sent to chief constables concerning aliens are permissive and not obligatory so far as the Home Office is concerned, and that that is causing concern to certain bodies and officials advising the Minister?

That may be so, but, on the other hand, I am not sure that it would be wise to make them too rigid, as there are variations in circumstances which call for elasticity in administration.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that various chief constables take entirely different views of their duty and that some are biased?

I am afraid that we all take different views on various matters.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that chief constables have entirely different areas to administer?

Is not the way in which the exclusion of persons from protected areas is being exercised causing intolerable arid justifiable hardships to innocent and perfectly reliable people who want to visit protected areas for important purposes?

That is another issue and had better be put on the Paper.

asked the Home Secretary whether there is any priority in the issue of steel helmets to civilians engaged on duties exposing them to danger during air raids; and, if so, what is the order of priority?

The first issues for members of Civil Defence Services were completed some months ago on the basis of the establishments authorised for each area, and issues are being extended to allow for a margin of personnel in excess of the authorised establishments. Helmets have also been supplied for workers engaged on work, under exposed conditions, in public transport and utility services and in factories engaged on vital war production. The additional production now being prepared will make it possible to extend still further the availability of steel helmets to civilians according to the nature of their work and the risks to which they are exposed during air raids.

When a supply of steel helmets is given to a county council, is there a stated priority of use of the helmets to people within the employment of the county council?

Generally speaking, the helmets are issued for a specific purpose, and the council would be committed to that purpose.

Are the Department considering any other form of protection than steel?

Certainly, Sir.

Will the hon. Gentleman see that no steel helmets are issued to civilians until the whole of the A.R.P. services are satisfied, which they are not at present?

That must depend on the kind of civilian concerned.

asked the Home Secretary whether, in view of the lack of reliable information throughout the country, he will hasten the production of an interim report upon the relative safety afforded by Anderson shelters, by surface brick shelters, by strutted basements, and by deep shelters of the London tube and Haldane types?

My hon. Friend is under a misapprehension if he is expecting that a report will be issued on this matter. My Department keeps itself fully apprised of any information which may become available, in the light of actual experience, with regard to the various types of shelter, but it would clearly be contrary to the public interest that conclusions derived from this information should be published.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that a wide diversity of opinion exists among local authorities, particularly where they have not been affected by enemy attack, and that such information might be properly circulated to them?

The information is readily available to the technical officers of the local authorities, but I think my hon. Friend would agree that it would not be right to make it a public declaration.

asked the Home Secretary whether he will see that those progressive local authorities who have completed the whole, or a large part, of their air-raid shelter schemes before the issue of the circular letter No. 262/1940 are not penalised for having carried out their works promptly, and that reimbursement of expenses incurred will be made retrospective to cover the whole cost?

asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that Home Security Circular 262/1940, dated 19th October, wherein it is decided that the total cost of the construction and equipment of air-raid shelters after the date of the circular will be borne by the Government, is penalising those local authorities who have speeded up the construction of air-raid shelters; and will he undertake to make the full grant retrospective to all local authorities?

asked the Home Secretary whether he has considered the resolution passed by the Stanley, County-Durham, Council protesting against the limitations imposed by circular No. 262, dated 19th October; 1940, which will operate to the serious disadvantage of those councils which have made rapid progress with their shelter accommodation; and, as this council has incurred a net cost to the rates for this purpose of £9,000, equal to an increase of 1s. 1d. in the £, will he reconsider the position and reimburse this expenditure approved before the date of the circular?

I would refer my hon. Friends to the reply which I gave on Tuesday to a Question by the hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth (Sir J. Mellor).

Will my right hon. Friend say what the reply was?

It was that I could hold out no prospect that this concession could be made to operate retrospectively.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that those local authorities which have thought things out and acted ahead of the Government are to be penalised by this decision?

I would not call it penalisation, although I fully appreciate the point of my hon. Friend and would not argue as to its merits. This action, however, was taken because of developments in the "Blitzkrieg" situation, wherein it was necessary to get rapid action in the expansion of shelters and to contemplate that I might have to act in the place of the local authorities. It was for that reason that I acted as I did, and I do not see that I could go back on it.

asked the Home Secretary whether he has now considered the memorandum sent to him by the hon. Member for North Lambeth concerning the installation of wireless apparatus in shelters; and whether he has come to any decision on the matter?

Yes, Sir. I have considered the memorandum and am sending a reply direct to my hon. Friend. As regards the second part of the Question, the use of wireless in shelters has the approval of the Government in principle, but no subsidy from public funds is contemplated, the provision and maintenance of wireless being left to the enterprise of individuals and interested bodies.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the provision of wireless on the relay system would be extremely popular, and would be very helpful in keeping up the morale of the shelterers in small shelters which it is impossible for concert parties to visit, and that the cost would not be more than about 2d. a day?

I will consider that point, but I really do not think it is unreasonable .that the considerable number of people using shelters should get together and have wireless installed. While it is the duty of hon. Members to consider suggestions with a view to improving large basement shelters, I hope they will realise that I have a lot of things to consider in connection with them and other shelters which are equally important, and I cannot go on adding this, that and the other to the amenities in shelters.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the question of exempting such wireless sets from licence, because otherwise anyone introducing a wireless set into a shelter would require to get a new licence for that purpose?

asked the Home Secretary with how many firms have Government contracts been placed for the supply of bunks for shelters; also the total number ordered; and the number delivered up to date?

My Department has placed contracts for the supply of bunks for shelters with 227 firms. The numbers ordered, which are of course in addition to those ordered by local authorities with my approval, will provide sleeping accommodation for 1,889,700 persons and, of these, bunks to accommodate 378,150 have been manufactured and consigned away from the works. I am not, however, able to say whether all these have yet been delivered at their destinations.

Will the complete number of bunks be available to be installed by the end of the year?

I cannot say. I can say only that the order was placed with promptness and on a large scale, and that I will do everything I can to accelerate delivery.

In consequence of the big demand for these bunks, is anything being done to prevent prices jumping up?

asked the Home Secretary whether he will indicate the respective functions of his Department and the Ministry of Health in connection with matters affecting health in public shelters?

The Ministry of Home Security is the central Department primarily responsible for shelter policy, but the Ministry of Health undertakes responsibility for matters relating specifically to public, health. Under this arrangement the Ministry of Health is the executive authority for the appointment of doctors and nurses to attend persons in shelters, medical inspection, and measures to prevent the spread of disease. The Ministry of Home Security is the executive authority for matters arising out of the design and construction of shelters and their fittings. In all matters affecting the public health, whether directly or indirectly, close liaison is maintained between the two Departments and circulars or general statements on these matters are not issued by one Department without prior consultation with the other.

While I appreciate the efforts which the right hon. Gentleman is making to secure a greater liaison, will he recognise that the ultimate test must be whether there is speedy executive action in the boroughs themselves? Is he aware that even this morning doctors in some London boroughs did not know where they could quickly get the first-aid equipment for shelters in order to take speedy action?

If the hon. Gentleman will let the Minister of Health have the information, I am sure he will follow it up, but the Question on the Order Paper concerns the respective responsibilities of Government Departments, and it was to that Question that I was addressing my answer.

asked the Home Secretary what powers are possessed by the police or wardens to enforce the removal from public shelters of persons who are medically certified to be a potential danger to other shelterers?

A Regulation is about to be made which will enable rules governing conduct in shelters to be issued. It is proposed to deal in these rules with the question of persons suffering from infectious or contagious disorders.

May we be assured that my right hon. Friend will meet medical opinion on this point?

No man can promise wholly to meet medical opinion.

asked the Home Secretary what are the differences in compensation or allowance to regular firemen and members of the Auxiliary Fire Service who are sick or injured; what representations he has received from the Auxiliary Fire Service on this matter; and what statement he can make?

The conditions of service of regular firemen depend on whether the fireman is employed in a professional or part-time capacity, and vary, to some extent, as between one fire brigade and another. All professional firemen who are incapacitated by injury or sickness are entitled to pensions on a contributory scheme. The compensation granted to part-time regular firemen is provided for, by the local authorities, under personal accident insurance policies. Members of the Auxiliary Fire Service come under the Personal Injuries (Civilians) Scheme, which applies to members of all the Civil Defence Services. Representations have been received suggesting that members of the Auxiliary Fire Service should be excluded from the Personal Injuries (Civilians) Scheme and that full pay should be granted to sick and injured auxiliary firemen. The first suggestion is not one that I could entertain; there are a good many respects in which the conditions of service of permanent fire brigade personnel would be inapplicable to volunteers for emergency service. As regards the second suggestion, action has already been taken to improve the position of members of the Civil Defence Services and I am sending my hon. Friend a copy of the circular which has been issued on the subject to local authorities.

asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware of the black-out anomalies which result in different conditions according to the decision of the local authorities; that specific objects or areas can be located by motor car headlights which can be clearly seen at a great height; and what action is it intended to take to bring about more uniformity and prevent areas from being outlined by motor car lights?

No, Sir, I am not aware of the anomalies to which my hon. Friend refers. The regulations governing vehicle lighting are laid down in the Lighting Restrictions Orders, and apply uniformly throughout the country. It is impossible to eliminate altogether the risk of visibility from the air without bringing traffic to a standstill at night, but I am satisfied that if headlights are properly masked in accordance with the regulations they should not be unduly visible to enemy aircraft.

Will my right hon. Friend read an article which appears in the "A.R.P. News," which is based upon the experience of wardens throughout the country, and then reconsider his answer in the light of those statements?

Yes, Sir.

Is it not a fact that there is great laxity in some areas in enforcing these regulations against vehicles showing lights which are too strong?

I have given the necessary guidance and instructions to police authorities. I am anxious that the law shall be properly administered, and I hope that the police will take all necessary action.

The police are the worst offenders.

If administration in any area is open to criticism, I hope that the public will take it up with the police authority concerned.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say what a warden does when he has to rebuke a policeman?

I think he had better refer it to some independent tribunal.

asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that the drivers of public-service vehicles are carrying out the regulations on lights, but that some motorists adopt several devices for the purpose of evading the regulations; and what action has been, taken, or is it intended to take, to bring about more uniformity, and safeguard the residents as far as is possible by maintaining the black-out?

The Lighting (Restrictions) (Amendment) (No. 2) Order made on 23rd October last applies to private and commercial vehicles as well as to public service vehicles, and the police have been asked to take all practicable steps to ensure compliance with the regulations.

In view of the fact that the people as a whole are carrying out the black-out regulations very efficiently, does not my right hon. Friend consider that, in fairness to them, some attention should be devoted to the headlights and other lights from motor vehicles?

I have taken all appropriate action under the regulation and have advised the police to enforce it, and I hope that the result of this Question in the House will be an increased firmness in administration.

Does not the Minister realise the difficulty of the police enforcing this regulation in rural areas, because people put on their lights and then turn them off when there is a possibility of being caught?

I always appreciate the difficulties of the police.

asked the Home Secretary how many regional commissioners' establishments there are in England and Wales; what is the total annual cost for rent and other incidental expenses, and will he state separately the amount paid annually in salaries; and is he satisfied that there is no waste, extravagance or unnecessary expenditure in these services?

There are 11 Civil Defence regional headquarters in England and Wales. Their annual cost is at the rate of £401,778 for salaries, £45,778 for rent, rates and maintenance, £29,850 for telephone services, and £50,050 for travelling and other incidental expenses. I am satisfied that this expenditure is not wasteful, extravagant or unnecessary.

In view of the necessity for economy and the wise spending of public money, will the Minister order a review and a drastic comb-out of this service?

No, Sir. I am satisfied that this is one of the most valuable services in the country and that for the money we are spending we are getting very good value.

Will the right hon. Gentleman not only not reconsider the expenditure at the moment but make this service more efficient, as it is the most hopeful thing in local government?

At this stage in the nation's difficulties are not Questions of this character to be deprecated, in view of the fact that criticisms of our civil expenditure were made from the same source six months ago?

asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that a letter addressed to the South-Eastern Regional Commissioner's office on nth November, by the hon. Member for Chislehurst, was replied to only on 22nd November, and the reply received by him on 25th November; and what steps does he propose to take to ensure that letters are answered more promptly, and that the subject of them is dealt with more speedily?

I have made inquiries and find that when the letter was received at the Regional Office on 13th November the subject of the letter was investigated the same day. On the following day a report was submitted to the Regional Commissioner and a decision given by him. Although immediate action was taken, it appears that owing to an oversight a reply was not sent to my hon. Friend for a few days, and I can only express regret for the delay; my hon. Friend will appreciate, however, that the Regional Commissioner for the South-Eastern Region is working under active war conditions.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that a delay of five days is a very short period in these times?

In view of the fact that I am not able to pursue the details of this matter owing to the question of public safety, will the right hon. Gentleman ask the Regional Commissioner to deal more speedily with this situation?

I am familiar with the details to which the hon. Gentleman refers, but I am bound to say that I should not have put this particular incident as necessarily No. 1 in importance.

asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware of the importance of all London air-raid wardens being provided this winter with a uniform, a steel helmet of the right size, rubber boots and a strong waterproof reaching below the knees; and will he undertake that this shall be done at an early date?

I appreciate the importance of providing suitable clothing and equipment for wardens' both in London and elsewhere, and I am pressing forward with all practicable measures to that end.

Will the Minister give the most urgent attention to this matter, if he wishes the supply of part-time voluntary wardens to be kept up during the winter?