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Commons Chamber

Volume 367: debated on Tuesday 3 December 1940

House of Commons

Tuesday, December 3, 1940

[Mr. Speaker in the Chair.]

Oral Answers to Questions

Coal Industry

Distribution

asked the Secretary for Mines how many thousand wagons laden with coal, originally intended for export, are standing idle on railway sidings; and whether steps can be taken to empty these trucks so that they may be used to transport coal from the pitheads?

I am informed that approximately 3,000 wagons of coal originally intended for export, but for which no foreign market is now available, are standing at docks in South Wales. I have no information of a similar accumulation in any other area. An officer of my Department was recently sent to South Wales and has already made arrangements for the disposal of over 2,000 of these wagons; active steps are being taken to arrange for the disposal of the remainder.

Will my hon. Friend tell us whether the statement that 20,000 trucks have been held up is a wild exaggeration?

Seeing that the Minister has more coal than he knows what to do with, will he consider the advisability of seeing that the poor folk who cannot afford to buy coal are supplied with it?

Arrangements have been made long ago for the supply of coal to poor people, and I hope they will not suffer.

Is there any truth in the statement that 25,000 tons of coal are on the railway sidings?

There will be much more than 25,000 tons on the various coal sidings. There are hundreds of thousands of tons on the sidings, but it does not mean that transport is available.

asked the Secretary for Mines whether he can make a statement on the present position of the co-operative arrangements which have been made for the retail distribution of coal?

Merchants engaged in the retail distribution of house coal throughout the country are preparing local arrangements to meet shortages of labour and transport and to facilitate the equitable distribution of available supplies of house coal to consumers. In the areas where difficulties are most acute, namely, the London, Southern, South-Eastern and South-Western Divisions, these arrangements are well in hand. In the remaining divisions substantial progress has been made, and arrangements should be completed at an early date.

Stocks

asked the Secretary for Mines whether he will give permission to local authorities to act as agents for the Government and buy coal for stocking purposes?

Local authorities are already giving valuable assistance to the Mines Department in regard to coal stocking on Government account by the provision of sites and, in some Cases, by assuming responsibility for handling the coal consigned to them. Actual purchases are being made through trade channels, and I do not think there would be any advantage in the interposition of local authorities as agents.

Did my hon. Friend himself take steps to ask the local authorities to act as agents and to stock coal?

Not to buy coal, but to provide sites and help in the disposal of the coal.

The Department itself has been given authority to purchases 5,000,000 tons of coal on Government account, and there is no need to duplicate the buying agencies.

asked the Secretary for Mines whether he can give an assurance that the position of coal storage in the city of Lincoln is satisfactory?

I have no reason to think that the stocks of coal in Lincoln are other than satisfactory.

That is not the point. What steps has the Minister taken to see that there is not a repetition of last year's experience?

We have taken steps to induce people to buy coal in advance. They have bought very generously in Lincoln, and there are large stocks in that city. That is the best preparation for any emergency that might happen.

So the hon. Gentleman can give an assurance that we shall not have the same difficulties as last winter?

I cannot give any promise that things will not happen. I am under an obligation, and I have tried to meet that obligation by making all preparations against all that might happen.

Is the hon. Gentleman satisfied by inspection that stocks are available for various places? I put a similar question and got the same sort of reply.

I have taken the trouble to find out what is the position in the hon. and learned Gentleman's city, and it is not too bad.

Questions

Shopkeepers, London (Assistance)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the plight of shopkeepers throughout London whose businesses have in many cases been ruined, due to the evacuation from London of a large proportion of the community, and whose trade is further hampered by the many drastic restrictions rendered necessary by the war; and what steps the Government propose to take to assist them?

I realise that the restrictions of home sales must add to the many difficulties with which London shopkeepers are faced as a result of the war. These traders are, however, only one of many classes of the public who have suffered hardship and financial loss from the war, and frankly I do not at present see any way in which special Government assistance can be extended to them.

Does my right hon. and gallant Friend appreciate that the Limitation of Supplies Order will further hit the small trader and that the supplies which are guaranteed to the Navy, Army and Air Force Institutes are to the detriment of the small trader, who finds his living in many cases taken away by the Institutes?

That is another question, but I realise that the limitation of supplies may inflict great hardship on the retailer.

Will my right hon. and gallant Friend see that the same limitation of supply as applies to the Navy, Army and Air Force Institutes is applied to the small trader?

Merchant Ships, United States of America (Acquisition)

asked the Minister of Shipping what progress has been made in negotiations with the Government of the United States of America with respect to a programme of building merchant ships there to be supplied to this country; whether, in view of the fact that the American Government has about 50 cargo vessels laid up, proposals will be made that these should be released for sale to this country as required; and whether the United States Maritime Commission will be asked to encourage American shipowners to sell obsolete but serviceable tonnage to this country?

As regards the first part of the Question, my right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty has already placed a first order with shipbuilders in the United States for the construction of 60 cargo ships. For the rest, old but serviceable United States vessels, including vessels belonging to the Maritime Commission, have been and will continue to be purchased for the British flag as opportunity offers.

I take it that every step is being taken to expedite the arrangements which the right hon. Gentleman has indicated are to be carried out?

I can assure my hon. Friend that everything possible is being done to get ships with the greatest facility.

Gold Shipments from Lisbon

asked the Minister of Economic Warfare whether he is satisfied that the recent heavy exports of gold from Lisbon to the United States of America do not include any bullion seized by Germany from the countries she has occupied?

A strict watch is being kept on all shipments of gold from Lisbon. If we had reason to believe that any consignment was German property, I should not hesitate to take the necessary action. If my hon. Friend has any information in respect of any shipment, perhaps he will be good enough to communicate it to me.

I have, of course, no personal information except that the gold shipments from Lisbon have, I understand, been particularly heavy. Has my right hon. Friend facilities for discovering whether this is German gold?

We have more than one line of communication on this subject, and we are keeping close watch on it, although it is difficult to distinguish one bit of gold from another.

British Army

Vaccination and Inoculation

asked the Secretary of State for War what is the maximum number of vaccination and inoculation operations a soldier may be called on to undergo, giving in each case the purpose; and will he say whether any further ones are contemplated?

In the interest of the preservation of his health and that of the Army in general, the soldier can elect to be vaccinated and to be inoculated against typhoid and tetanus. The first procedure is for protection against smallpox which may be rife in the country in which he has to serve. The inoculation against typhoid is to protect him against typhoid. The inoculation against tetanus is to prevent this very fatal infection which is a not uncommon complication of war wounds. No further inoculations are at present contemplated.

When the soldier is called upon to undergo these various operations, what length of time intervenes between one and the other? Is there no danger of mixing the result, like mixing one's drinks?

In the case of anti-typhoid vaccine the interval is 10 to 14 days, and in the case of tetanus about six weeks.

Road Accident (Claims Commission)

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he will furnish particulars of the duties of the new Department which he has set up to deal with claims against his Department arising out of road accidents; whether the staff of the new Department includes any and, if so, which, of those officers previously engaged on this work; and what additional personnel has been engaged for this work and what was their previous engagement?

I am sending my hon. Friend a copy of the Army Order notifying the constitution of the Claims Commission. The President of the Commission, Major-General H. C. Cole, is the Senior Vice-President of the Chartered Surveyors' Institution, and was until recently Comptroller of Lands at the War Office. He was also President of the Claims Commission of the British Expeditionary Force. The organisation includes most of the officers who served under Major-General Cole in France, and were in civilian life solicitors, surveyors or assessors engaged in the settlement of claims for insurance companies. It also includes officers and others who have been dealing with traffic accidents, and new appointments are being made from solicitors and assessors.

Can my hon. Friend tell me whether any of the senior officers of this Department have had any practical experience in settling claims?

Was the War Office Business Advisory Gouncil consulted when this Department was set up?

Recruits (Medical Examination)

asked the Secretary of State for War who in his Department, other than medical men and women, have the right to overrule the medical opinion of civilian doctors employed in examining recruits both for the Army and the Auxiliary Territorial Service without reference to the medical men or women responsible for the original examination or to other qualified medical consultants?

The Army Medical Department is the only Department which can overrule the medical opinion of the civilian doctors employed in examining recruits for the Army or Auxiliary Territorial Service, and specialist advice is obtained whenever considered necessary.

If I supply my hon. Friend with information of cases where medical opinion has been over-ruled, will he look into them and see that action is taken?

I will certainly have any such cases looked into, but I should imagine that where medical opinion has been overruled it has been by other medical opinion.

Railway Station Canteens

asked the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the deplorable condition of the services canteen at Carlisle Station organised by voluntary workers and which caters for 15,000 troops per week; and whether he will take immediate steps to provide better facilities for refreshment and comfort of troops passing through this important railway junction?

I am aware that the present arrangements are unsatisfactory, and negotiations have been proceeding with the purpose of effecting an improvement. There is to be a meeting to-morrow between representatives of the Mayor of Carlisle, the railway company, the Ministry of Transport and the War Office, at which I hope a satisfactory settlement of the problem will be reached.

Will the hon. Gentleman endeavour to expedite things, in view of the approaching Christmas rush, and the number of troops who will be going on leave, and the additional work which that will entail upon this band of voluntary workers?

Will the hon. Gentleman see that the position is improved at other junctions besides Carlisle? Troops arrive late at night and find that there are no refreshments at all available.

More than 50 main-line stations have already been dealt with in a way which I think would satisfy my hon. Friend, and other places are being dealt with as soon as possible.

I am not satisfied with the position at Eastleigh, which is a big junction. The conditions there are deplorable so far as supplies are concerned.

Could my hon. Friend point out to other towns what the citizens of Plymouth are doing in this direction by voluntary effort? We have no complaints, and people are delighted. Will he point out what other towns could do if they showed the same co-operative spirit?

Coming back to the original Question, is the hon. Gentleman aware that Carlisle is more important from some aspects than almost any other junction, because people arrive there after very long journeys, and therefore there is greater hardship? Will he take steps to expedite improvements at Carlisle?

Conscientious Objectors (Inquiry)

asked the Secretary of State for War whether the report of the inquiry into the allegations of ill-treatment of conscientious objectors attached to the non-combatant corps has now been received and considered; and whether he has taken any decisions in consequence?

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is now in a position to announce the findings of the special inquiry into the allegation of ill-treatment to conscientious objectors near Liverpool; and whether the report will be available?

The report is under consideration, and I am not yet in a position to make any statement in regard to it.

Can my hon. Friend say when he will be in a position to make the statement, seeing that the report was completed more than a month ago?

I do not think my hon. Friend is correct in that statement. We received the report only last week, and it is an extremely bulky document, and my right hon. Friend must be given time to make a careful study of this very important matter.

Leave

asked the Secretary of State for War whether arrangements will be made for an increased number .of officers and men to have leave during Christmas and New Year holidays?

The present percentage of leave, which is on as generous a scale as operational needs will allow, will be continued over Christmas. It is unfortunately impossible, because of the undesirability of throwing upon the railway companies a sudden peak-load of traffic, as well as for operational reasons, to increase this percentage. My hon. Friend will appreciate that the industrial population is making sacrifices in this respect. I am sure that the Army will not wish to do less.

Home Guard

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he will give an assurance that the Home Guard has not and will not be used in connection with industrial disputes?

The duty of the Home Guard in factories is to protect the factory against enemy action, which may take the form of sabotage or of direct .attack. The Home Guard has no duties whatever in connection with factory disputes. These are a matter for managers and workers in which the Home Guard, as members of the Armed Forces of the Crown, are in no way concerned.

Auxiliary Territorial Service

asked the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the recent decision of the Minister of Labour to pay dependants' allowances to women trainees, thus establishing the principle of the right of women to claim allowances for dependants, he will now consider granting dependants' allowances to women serving in the Auxiliary Territorial Service?

This matter is already under consideration, but I am not at present in a position to announce any decision.

Is the matter under favourable consideration; and if I put a Question down in a fortnight, can I expect a reply, in view of the urgency of recruiting for the A.T.S. and the perpetual appeals for recruiting?

I am afraid that I cannot extend "consideration" into "favourable consideration." I can only recommend that my hon. Friend have patience to await the reply.

In order to help on that favourable consideration, Mr. Speaker, may I give notice that, owing to the unfavourable reply, I will raise the matter at an early opportunity?

Does the hon. Gentleman realise that it takes a woman to look after these matters?

Questions

British Prisoners of War

asked the Secretary of State for War what the intentions of his Department are with regard to a privately-run enterprise operating in Lisbon at present engaged in forwarding parcels to prisoners of war in Germany?

When my right hon. Friend asked my hon. and gallant Friend to postpone his Question last week, he was expecting a report from the representative of the War Organisation of the British Red Cross Society and Order of St. John who is now in Lisbon. I regret to say that he has not yet received the report. Perhaps my hon. and gallant Friend will allow me to send him a reply by letter, which I will do as soon as possible.

Will my hon. Friend see that my right hon. Friend does not close down this committee just because the Red Cross wish to get the whole thing into their own hands? It has been doing remarkable and excellent work.

Does my hon. Friend know that I hold in my hand a letter from a prisoner in Oflag VII Camp, dated 29th October, saying no Red Cross parcels of any kind had come to that camp, and is it not about time we knew what the position is? Are parcels coming in now?

If this thing were perfect, there would not have been all this outcry.

I do not think my right hon. Friend or the British Red Cross have ever claimed that the organisation is perfect. That is too much to expect in the conditions in which it is operating, but the organisation has done a very difficult task very well indeed, and the position is improving daily.

Will the hon. Member remember that this private organisation in Lisbon has succeeded in getting parcels through for a long time when the Red Cross has failed? Will he bear that in mind?

According to the statement I have just received, no Red Cross parcels had arrived by 29th October.

May I ask whether the whole of the reports depend upon one secretary in a huge organisation like the Red Cross, and whether it is necessary to hold up an answer to a Question until someone returns from Lisbon? Surely there ought to be more than one to get a report.

I do not think that is surprising. The representative in Lisbon is endeavouring to undertake certain negotiations, and those negotiations are better conducted by one person.

Surely the head of the Red Cross is in a position to present a report on an important matter of this kind.

asked the Secretary of State for War what clothing and bedding is issued to German prisoners of war in Britain; and what articles are issued by the German; Government to British prisoners of war in Germany?

I will circulate in the Official Report a list of what is supplied to Ger- man prisoners of war in this country. It has not so far been possible to ascertain the scale of clothing and bedding issued to British prisoners of war in Germany. It is known that other ranks sent to working camps have been supplied with Polish Army clothing, but the general situation in this respect is not satisfactory and the Protecting Power has recently again been asked to make strong representations to the German authorities. There have been very few complaints regarding housing conditions and there is reason to believe that bedding supplied is similar to that supplied to German troops.

Will the hon. Gentleman make inquiry through the Protecting Power to find out what prisoners of war in Germany are allowed to get, and to secure reciprocity in their treatment?

Why has there been this tremendous delay in ascertaining what the conditions are? Months have passed. Surely the American Ambassador or someone else could ascertain what clothing is supplied by the Germans to our prisoners of war, who have been shut up for months.

I think that the Protecting Power has been of enormous assistance to this country in this matter of prisoners of war, and I do not think it is desirable to criticise. Everything is being done by the Protecting Power that can be done, and I am sure they will give every assistance in their power.

When letters are received by the relatives of British officers who are prisoners of war in Germany describing the deplorable state of their clothing can .one not imagine what a fearful state the men are in?

Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the intense anxiety on this subject which has been created throughout the country, and is he satisfied that the persons in control of the organisation here are exactly of the right type?

Yes, Sir, I am indeed fully aware of the anxiety which must be caused in this country among the relatives of prisoners of war, but I do not think that that anxiety is likely to be abated if by criticism it is implied that conditions are much worse than, in fact, they are. My right hon. Friend has gone into this question very carefully, as the House knows, and very great improvements have been made and will continue to be made.

Following is the list:

Scale of Clothing and Necessaries supplied to German Prisoners of War in this Country.

asked the Secretary of State for War on which account the monthly deductions for messing are made from the pay of officers who are prisoners of war in Germany?

asked the Secretary of State for War what, in the case of British subalterns who are prisoners of war in Germany, is the monthly amount of advances made by the German Government and of the charge for messing deductible from the subaltern's account; whether any further deductions are made, and, if so, for what purposes and of what amount; and what is the amount of the monthly balance put to the credit of the subaltern's account?

The German Government issues to British subalterns, if a second-lieutenant, Reichsmarks 72 a month, and, if a lieutenant, Reichsmarks 81 a month. Apart from deductions for Income Tax, the only recoveries effected from the officer's pay in this country are in respect of the above advances of pay and three shillings a day for messing (a provisional figure). After such deductions, a subaltern has (for a 30-day month) a balance to his credit (apart from Income Tax) of: — Second-lieutenant, £6 10s.; lieutenant with less than six years' service, £8 10.; lieutenant with six years' service, £10 15s. If married, the officer is also credited with the appropriate family lodging allowance. As regards the deduction for messing, an officer is liable, under the terms of the Geneva Convention of 1929, to procure his food from the pay paid to him by the detaining power. By a reciprocal arrangement with the German Government, food is being supplied to officer prisoners of war free, and the cost is, therefore, being deducted from their accounts in this country.

Is that 3s. a day for messing to be handed over to the German Government for the stuff they give our people?

No, Sir, that 3s. a day is paid for the food which is supplied under the Convention.

In actual fact, is it not the case that the officer pays 3s. a day for the food which he receives from the Germans?

Does not an officer on active service receive free rations? After all, when he is a prisoner of war he is on active service.

The figure is provisional. It depends upon an agreement which has to be come to in regard to the rate of exchange. I hope that when that agreement is reached it will be possible to make some improvement.

Are any other expenses taken out of the pay of these officers?

Will my hon. Friend look into this matter? If an officer receives free rations when on active service, is there any reason why he should not receive free food when he is a prisoner of war?

asked the Secretary of State for War the number of parcels delivered to prisoners of war camps to date?

asked the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of continued complaints and the serious plight of our prisoners of war in Germany, he will make more adequate arrangements with the Red Cross for sending parcels of food, clothing and comforts to them, as the present method has failed to meet the pressing needs of these brave men faced with the rigours of winter?

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that the next-of-kin of prisoners of war in Germany are only allowed to send personal parcels limited in weight to 10 lbs. once every three months; and whether he will make arrangements whereby relations may send parcels more frequently?

My right hon. Friend explained, in answer to Questions last Tuesday, the transport difficulties that we have had to meet in sending parcels to prisoners of war, and that real progress is being made in efforts to overcome them. My right hon. Friend stated then that more than 18,000 British parcels .addressed to British prisoners of war had been transmitted through the International Red Cross alone. It has since been announced that over 340,000 parcels have been despatched from all sources, of which 86,000 have been individually acknowledged by the prisoners, and many more will by now have reached their destination. As my right hon. Friend said, our aim is to ensure for each prisoner adequate clothing and a weekly delivery of food. I regret that the transport facilities at present available do not permit of the despatch of personal parcels more often than once in three months, without interference with the transmission of bulk food and clothing supplies. My right hon. Friend will be glad to reconsider this point if it becomes practicable to do so.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the Germans raise no object- tion to any number of parcels being sent? Surely something more frequent than three months is desirable, in view of the tact that the other parcels are not arriving. Is he aware that relatives have been sending things like flannel trousers, which are legal, but which add to the weight making up the 10 lb. and prevents the sending of kit which is urgently needed?

Did I understand my hon. Friend to say that 18,000 parcels had been sent to 4,000 prisoners?

No, Sir. My Noble Friend misunderstood me. About 340,000 parcels were sent, not 18,000. In reply to my hon. Friend the Member for South Kensington (Sir W. Davison), I would say that he has put his finger upon the whole point. Until we get the bulk parcels in there in satisfactory quantities, we do not want to complicate the problem of transport by increasing the number of individual parcels. When we get the main problem dealt with, we shall be able to consider the other questions.

Civil Defence

Hospital Staffs, Scotland (Billeting)

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether his attention has been called to the memorandum issued to local authorities in England by the Minister of Health, dated 28th September, 1940, intimating that married householder members of hospital staffs, serving away from home, shall receive free billets or, alternatively, a cash allowance of £1 1s. weeky; whether he is aware that hospital staffs in Scotland, similarly employed, are compelled to pay 19s. 3d. weekly for billeting, less 7s. in lieu of home rent; and what steps he is prepared to take to ensure that Scottish hospital staffs receive not less favourable treatment than their English colleagues?

The application to Scotland of the terms of the circular referred to is at present under consideration, and I will inform my hon. Friend as soon as a decision has been reached.

Does the right hon. Gentleman expect that Scotland will be put upon the same basis as England is, in this matter?

My hon. Friend is rather under a misapprehension. This circular applies to evacuated hospital staffs and not yet to evacuated asylum staffs. As a matter of fact, there are no evacuated asylum staffs in England and Wales, but there are four in Scotland.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these institutions are now called mental hospitals in Scotland and not asylums?

Furniture Losses (Compensation Claims)

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether, in view of the loss of time and inconvenience caused in many London areas by the necessity of bombed-out people having to apply to the town halls to obtain form V.O.W.1, for the claiming of compensation for loss of furniture, he will arrange with the local authorities that these forms should be available at all rest and feeding centres in the locality?

I have been asked to reply. Yes, Sir. My right hon. Friend is arranging this.

Enemy Aliens (Transfer Overseas)

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the officer who was responsible for the wholesale despatch of alien refugees of all categories to Canada and Australia in the summer still holds the same rank and, if not, what rank he now holds?

It has already been stated in this House on previous occasions, one of which was a reply by the Lord Privy Seal to the hon. Member, that the decision to transfer interned enemy aliens, including refugees, overseas was taken by the Government, in order to reduce the general danger which might arise, in the event of an invasion, from having large numbers of enemy aliens in internment here. I do not, therefore, understand my hon. Friend's suggestion that the responsibility rests with some individual officer.

In view of the fact that it is admitted that there was gross incompetence in carrying out this work, is my hon. Friend aware that the particular officer responsible has been promoted from major to colonel recently?

Perhaps my hon. Friend had better communicate the name of the officer he has in mind.

Has no disciplinary action been taken against anybody, a Minister or otherwise, for the grave incompetence which was shown?

The question concerns the "wholesale despatch" of aliens overseas. For that, the Government take full responsibility.

Does my hon. Friend recall that some considerable time ago the Secretary of State for War promised that an inquiry would be instituted into the "Arandora Star" case, and can he say when the report of that committee of inquiry will be made available to the House?

That question had better be put to my-right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War.

Internees

asked the Home Secretary whether there are now any German, Austrian or Czech doctors, qualified to practice in Great Britain, holding B or C certificates, who are still interned; and, if so, how many?

I am making inquiries on the point and will communicate the result to the hon. Member.

asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that Fascist prisoners interned on the Isle of Man are in wireless communication with Italy; and what steps are being taken to stop the same?

No, Sir. The inquiries that have been made into this statement do not suggest any ground for believing it, but I am ready to investigate any information on the subject that the hon. Member can obtain.

Has my hon. Friend not seen the information I sent to him, on which this Question was based, namely, a letter published in the Press?

I have certainly seen the statement sent by my hon. Friend which is a cutting from a paper called, if I remember rightly, the "Ethopia News." That statement has been investigated, and we cannot find any substance in the allegations contained therein.

What steps does my hon. Friend take when statements like that are published in the Press?

I obviously cannot inform my hon. Friend of the steps which have been taken in a matter of this kind, which involves considerations of national security.

Glass Substitutes (Hessian Canvas)

asked the Home Secretary whether, in view of the successful use of Hessian canvas in a hospital of which particulars have been sent to him, he will recommend the removal and storage of glass wherever practicable, and the substitution of Hessian canvas as a protection against damage from blast wherever other substitutes for glass are unobtainable or too dear?

I am having further inquiries made about the experiment of which my hon. Friend has sent particulars, and for which I thank him. I will communicate with him later.

Rescue Workers (Casualties, London)

asked the Home Secretary how many rescue workers have been killed in the Metropolitan Police area; how many injured; the number of rescue workers; and the number of depots from which they operate?

Since the outbreak of war 41 members of the Rescue Party Service have been killed and 500 injured in the London Region, which corresponds very closely with the Metropolitan Police district. It would not be in the national interest to make public the information asked for in the last two parts of the Question, but I am communicating the particulars to my hon. Friend privately.

Workers (Compensation)

asked the Home Secretary how the scales of compensation paid to Civil Defence workers wholly or partly disabled in the course of their duties, and to dependants in the event of their death, compare with the scales of compensation payable to members of the Services in similar eventualities?

I have been asked to reply. Pensions payable under the Personal Injuries (Civilians) Scheme in respect of the disablement or death of a member of a Civil Defence organisation as denned therein are on the same scale as for a private soldier.

Damage to Property (Compensation)

asked the Home Secretary whether he will accelerate the procedure under the Government scheme of compensation for war damage to property?

I have been asked to reply. I have already introduced certain simplifications in the scheme for immediate advances in respect of essential furniture and clothing to persons of limited means which will expedite payments, but if my hon. Friend knows of any case where there is undue delay, I shall be pleased to examine it.

Is my right hon. and gallant Friend aware that quite a number of people whose homes have been destroyed and who sent in their application forms over two months ago have still not even had an acknowledgement, and may I give him particulars of a member of the staff of this House who is in that case?

Detentions

asked the Home Secretary the reconstituted membership of the committee appointed last September, with Sir Francis Lindley as chairman, to advise him on cases of non-enemy aliens detained under Article 12 (5A) of the Aliens Order; and whether, in view of the fact that several hundreds of these aliens have already been from three to six months in prison without being given any indication why they are detained or receiving any acknowledgement of their letters and appeals, he will make the committee considerable, allow it to sit in sections, and speed up its operations in every possible way?

The terms of reference and the constitution of this committee were announced in the Press last week. As regards the second part of the Question, my right hon. Friend fully appreciates the desirability of expediting the hearing of all these cases, especially of persons who have been detained for a prolonged period, and he will not hesitate to increase the membership of the committee and to ask it to sit in panels if experience shows such a course to be necessary.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that these same people who for months have been without any opportunity of self-defence have now been forbidden to write to Members of Parliament or to make an appeal to the Home Secretary, and will he consider withdrawing that rule?

On a point of Order. I have been told that I have made a statement that is without any foundation. May I not ask whether the hon. Gentleman, in correspondence with me, has admitted that it was so?

The hon. Member has three Questions on the Paper. She will not get any of them answered if we spend all the time on one of them.

My veracity is called into question. Does the hon. Gentleman say that detenus have not been forbidden to write to Members of Parliament or to other people of importance; and does he remember the correspondence that I have had with him on the subject, in the course of which he admitted that it was so?

The ban placed on these detenus writing to Members of Parliament was withdrawn some weeks ago.

May I ask whether these people know that, because I have had letters during the last few days saying that they were forbidden to write? [ Interruption. ] The letters were from their friends and relations.

On a point of Order. When an hon. Member, on behalf of the Government, declares that a statement is-without foundation, and a moment or two afterwards admits that only a few weeks ago such a rule was in operation, is there not suspicion of evasion on his part?

My statement, I think, was perfectly accurate. The hon. Lady asked whether it was not a fact that these persons were forbidden to write. For some weeks past they have been permitted to write to Members of Parliament if and when they please.

On a point of Order. Was not the Minister's statement given in order to mislead the House?

I asked, Was not the statement made by the hon. Gentleman, intended to mislead the House?

But why should I withdraw it? I respectfully submit that I made no statement of any sort. I asked a question, and the hon. Member can say "No" if he wishes.

Are not private Members entitled to protection from the Chair? The hon. Member made not only an insinuation, but a gross accusation.

Ministers have equal rights to protection. The hon. Member will withdraw that statement.

The hon. Member asked whether it was not a fact that the Minister had intended to mislead the House.

On my respectful submission, it could not be called a statement. I cannot withdraw what was in question. Indeed, in my respectful submission, it is the practice of this House to put supplementary points in the form of Questions. It is the only way in which they can be put.

It is not the practice of the House for Members to ask whether it is a fact that a Minister has made a statement in order to mislead the House.

I will withdraw my question, in deference to you, Sir; but I respectfully submit that you ought to ask the hon. Member also to withdraw.

I think the House will realise that I certainly had no intention of casting any imputation upon the hon. Lady. If she thinks I have cast any imputation upon her, I will gladly withdraw the word "whatsoever."

I informed the Minister some weeks ago about this rule. I told him that it was so discreditable that I was unwilling to give it publicity in the House, and I begged him to consider whether he would not withdraw it. I have heard nothing from him since then. I wrote to him some days ago, reminding him of the point, and I have heard nothing from him. Does he not think that he might have informed me? How could I know that the order with withdrawn?

In view of the fact that there is a war outside, may we not have an armistice inside the House?

Questions

Educational Facilities

asked the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware of the growing extent of the return of children to coastal evacuated areas and of the anxiety caused to the school managers and parents at the effect .on the children of the complete shutting down of their schools; and whether he is prepared to modify the situation by partial resumption of educational facilities and by daily transportation of children to schools which are now open and quite near their homes?

My right hon. Friend fully appreciates the situation referred to by my hon. and gallant Friend and he has the matter under constant review, in consultation with the other Departments concerned. It was recently found possible to authorise the partial reopening of schools in certain of the areas in question, and the possibility of extending such reopening to other places in the coastal evacuation areas, so far as may be possible, will not be overlooked.

Road Safety Measures

asked the Minister of Transport whether, in order to increase safety on the roads, he will, either by regulation or propaganda, cause road-using pedestrians to face the traffic?

Paragraph 89 of the Highway Code reads as follows:

"Never walk along the carriageway where there is a pavement or suitable footpath. If there is no footpath it is generally better to walk on the right of the carriageway, so as to face oncoming traffic."

I do not think this advice is capable of being turned into a regulation, but I would remind my hon. and gallant Friend that, under Section 45 of the Road Traffic Act, 1930, failure on the part of any person to observe any provision of the Code may be taken into account in any proceedings whether civil or criminal. I will consider whether the point should be emphasised in the road safety campaign already announced.

Would my hon. Friend bear in mind the particular point which is at the back of this Question, namely, country roads, where pathways do not exist; and also the point that the military authorities are doing what they can to cause their troops to march on that side of the road which faces oncoming traffic?

Would it not be better to have some rule like this: "Never stop at a public house when driving in the black-out"?

asked the Minister of Transport whether he has any plans to effect a reduction of casualties on the roads, especially those due to rapid and careless driving?

In the reply which my right hon. Friend gave to the hon. Member for Kettering (Mr. Profumo) on 20th November last he explained the present proposals regarding road safety propaganda. The modified campaign will be addressed to drivers of road vehicles as well as to pedestrians and will, I hope, be effective in reducing the numbers of accidents. Success must, however, depend on the determination of all classes of road users themselves to exercise the greatest care and consideration for others.

While thanking the hon. Gentleman for that reply, may I ask whether his right hon. Friend has any authority or control over Service drivers who are also offenders in this matter?

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the behaviour of drivers of Army lorries is indeed disgraceful? I saw dozens of incidents this week-end, and something ought to be done about it.

Will the hon. Gentleman consider a report which the right hon. Member for Devonport (Mr. Hore-Belisha) had of the effect of alcohol on road accidents? Will he seriously look into it, as there is a great feeling in the country?

Food Supplies (Rationing)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether, in view of the shifting of population in war-time, he will represent to the trade committee concerned that they should review their rationing schemes so that retailers' requirements are based on present population rather than on prewar needs?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given to my hon. Friend the Member for Stretford (Mr. Ralph Etherton) on 16th October. Supplies of rationed commodities are exactly adjusted to changes in population. As regards unrationed commodities, the industries concerned in allotting supplies endeavour to adapt their distribution to such changes and the Ministry are taking steps to give manufacturers information which will assist them in making the necessary adjustments more quickly. It has to be recognised, however, that the remaining population in the evacuation areas, in turn, make a strong claim for increased supplies of certain products, because of their special circumstances and in particular for consumption in shelters. It is therefore not always praticable to provide reception areas with supplies fully proportionate to increase in numbers.

Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that retailers of unrationed foods which are still scarce, such as eggs, make a habit of refusing to supply any but a limited quantity except to their old, regular customers, which means that people who have been moved into an area as evacuees have been unable to get them at all?

Great Britain and the United States

asked the Prime Minister whether he will give an assurance to this House that no further naval or military bases will be let to the United States of America, nor will any definite or implied Act of Union be entered into, or irrevocably committed, between this country and the United States of America without the Government first giving opportunity to this House for full discussion?

With regard to the first part of the hon. Member's Question, I know of no reason to depart from the long-established constitutional practice which governs the treaty-making power of the Crown and the opportunities of discussion and action which belong to the House. With regard to the second part, I am not aware of any proposals of the kind mentioned by the hon. Member. But it is quite certain that if any such plans were to approach the confines of practical politics, it could only be after prolonged discussion in the legislative bodies on both sides of the Atlantic.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman still adhere to the principle that treaties should not be ratified until they have been fully discussed by this House?

Has our diplomacy over recent years achieved such striking success that the right hon. Gentleman can stick to the old principles?

Detention of a Member (Committee's Report)

asked the Prime Minister when it is proposed to bring before the House, for its consideration, the report from the Committee of Privileges on the case of the hon. and gallant Member for Peebles and Southern (Captain Ramsay)?

The Government intend at some convenient date-to invite the House to approve the report from the Committee of Privileges on the case of the Hon. and gallant Member for Peebles and Southern, but I am not in a position to name the date.

Did not the right hon. Gentleman say last week that it was a matter for a private Member and not the Government at all? Would he be good enough to explain why he is now expressing a different view?

The point I was making was that it is open to any Member to raise the matter, but the Government have decided to put down a Motion.

In view of the great delay that has occurred, will an opportunity occur at an early date for considering the report?

Owing to the importance of this matter, surely the whole House is entitled to know whether this report is to be fully considered at an early date?

War Cabinet

asked the Prime Minister whether he will consider the advisability of reverting to the policy of having a War Cabinet entirely composed of Ministers free from Departmental duties and responsibilities?

Will the Minister not consider the feeling which exists throughout the country that certain Departments which are represented on the War Cabinet have a very unfair advantage?

In view of the vital importance of production, will the right hon. Gentleman consider the appointment of a Minister to the War Cabinet in sole charge of economic war production?

Is the right hon. Gentleman not going to reply to these Supplementary Questions? Is it not true that there are Ministers belonging to the War Cabinet who give a great deal of time to propaganda connected with Departmental duties? Surely the same reasons exist now as existed before for having a War Cabinet free from departmental responsibilities.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the right hon. Gentleman's reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment.

Allied Nationals, Great Britain (Conscription)

asked the Prime Minister when it is proposed to introduce the Bill conferring on Allied Governments in this country power to call up compulsorily their nationals in this country?

This question, which is a complicated one, is still under consideration by the Departments of His Majesty's Government. It is hoped that proposals for legislation may be ready shortly. In the meantime, the position remains as stated in the last sentence of the reply given to the hon. Member on the same subject on 18th September.

In view of the fact that it was stated on 18th September that with the approval of Allied Governments legislation was contemplated, can the right hon. Gentleman say why this delay has taken place?

Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act, 1921

asked the Prime Minister whether he will make arrangements for the Motion, Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act, 1921, standing in the name of the hon. Member for Chislehurst and 28 other Members to be put down for discussion at an early date?

["That it is expedient that a tribunal be established under the Tribunals of Inquiry {Evidence) Act, 1921, for inquiring into a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, the serious allegations of waste, extravagance and dishonesty adduced by Major Evans, late Royal Engineers, Major A. Reid-Kellett, D.S.O., M.C., and Mr. W. H. E. Can, A.M.I.C.E.; and that, in view of the urgent necessity for maintaining public confidence in the wise and economical spending of all moneys given or lent to the Government, the tribunal be requested to report to the House of Commons as soon as possible."]

No, Sir. I understand that the Select Committee on National Expenditure set up by the House are inquiring into the allegations .of improper expenditure which have been made, and they are the proper body to deal with that matter.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it has taken three or four months to get that Committee to hear these gentlemen, and does he realise that the decision that is arrived at in his answer in refusing a judicial inquiry is very serious, especially as the Motion on the Paper is supported by at least 30 Members of Parliament?

There is no question of refusing an inquiry, but the matter is now in the hands of a Select Committee of Members of this House. We shall certainly have to await their report before considering whether it is necessary to send it to an outside body.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that that Committee, as I understand, do not hear witnesses on oath, that witnesses are not allowed to appear, that complainants cannot be represented by counsel and that it is not the form of Committee which many of us think desirable?

Economic Policy (Information)

asked the Minister without Portfolio whether he is aware that the restriction on the publication of information with regard to overseas trade, production and employment makes it impossible for Members of Parliament to obtain the requisite information in order to enable them to consider or discuss the economic policy of His Majesty's Government; and what steps he is prepared to take to remedy this situation?

The Government are anxious to afford the House the fullest information regarding the economic situation, but it is impossible in time of war to publish information regarding our war effort which would be of direct value to the enemy.

Having regard to the speech made by the right hon. Gentleman in September of last year, in which he protested against the suppression of statistics, can he now say why we are being denied the information with regard to unemployment which was supplied throughout the last war and the first 14 months of this war?

I do not withdraw anything that I said in September of last year, except that as regards information which can be used by the enemy it is surely desirable that it should be suppressed for the time being. In fact, it is the case that we are still publishing far more statistical information than any other Government.

Is not the suppression of information about unemployment designed to protect the Government?

National Finance

Treasury Borrowings

55. and 56.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) whether, in connection with any funding operation on a four or five years' basis which may be undertaken to deal with Treasury deposit receipts, he will take steps to ensure that the rate of interest that is to be paid does not exceed 1 per cent, per annum in view of the fact that these interest charges are moneys paid out of the pockets of the taxpayers throughout the country;

(2) whether, since approximately £300,000,000 has now been lent to the Treasury by the banks in the form of deposit receipts carrying interest at 1£ per cent., he will give the House an assurance that it is not the intention of the Government to fund these amounts into a four-year security, carrying interest at the rate of 2 per cent., or any similar scheme of funding?

As I indicated in my reply to my hon. Friend the Senior Member for the City of London (Sir George Broadbridge) on 4th July, it is one of the conditions of these advances by the banks that they may be repaid at any time for the purpose of investment in new national issues and some advances have already been repaid for that purpose; I see no reason for any change in these arrangements. Subject to that, I clearly cannot anticipate the terms of any future issues of Government securities.

Could my right hon. Friend state whether the Government will do everything in their power to prevent the issues being funded, as it is undesirable that they should be funded?

I am sure that my hon. Friend will appreciate that I could not accept that suggestion, and that I cannot anticipate the terms of future issues.

But my right hon. Friend is not going to suggest that these credits cost the Bank anything at all? Are they not completely costless?

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the difficulties which are being experi- enced at the present time in permanently financing the borrowing necessitated by the war on a three or six months' basis, such as Treasury bills or Treasury deposit receipts and, bearing in mind the present demands for increased wages to meet the rising cost of living, he will now make a statement as to the steps the Government propose to take to check this inflationary movement?

I am not aware that any difficulties are being experienced at the present time in borrowing by means of Treasury bills or Treasury deposit receipts. I cannot anticipate future policy in regard to Government borrowings, but my hon. Friend may rest assured that in shaping that policy the Government will have regard to all relevant considerations.

I know some of the ideas that my hon. Friend has in mind, but I do not think they would be generally acceptable.

Kamuntina Tin Dredging Company (Profits)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been called to the jump in profits of the Kamuntina Tin Dredging Company from £37,314 to £210,397; and whether the whole or, if not, what part of the difference will be collected as excess profits?

I cannot furnish any information regarding the liability to Excess Profits Tax or any other tax of the profits of any particular trading concern. I would refer the hon. Member to the provisions of Section 21 of the Finance (No. 2) Act, 1939, and paragraph 6 of Part III of the Fifth Schedule of the Finance Act, 1937, which require the Commissioners of Inland Revenue and all other persons employed in the assessment and collection to observe the same obligations as to secrecy in regard to the Excess Profits Tax and National Defence Contribution as the law requires in the case of the Income Tax.

Are not the earnings of any tin dredging company very largely a recovery of capital?

That was argued, as my hon. Friend will remember, on the last Finance Bill.

Aircraft (Contributions)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the sum to date which has been contributed or promised for the purchase of Spitfires or other aircraft, the cost of which would otherwise fall upon the Exchequer; and whether such sum will, in future, be included in such figures as are quoted by the chairman of the National Savings Committee as an important part of the total national effort in contributing to the cost of the war, without receiving interest or capital repayment?

The amount contributed or promised for the purchase of aircraft is £8,038,000. This figure covers contributions from home and overseas, and I would like to express the warm appreciation of His Majesty's Government to all who have so generously contributed to the national effort in this way. Publicity is given to these contributions from time to time. The figures published by the National Savings Committee are confined to subscriptions to Government loans and deposits in the savings banks, for which they conduct the appeal.

Questions

German War Expenditure

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the fact that the war is now costing this country about £9,000,000 a day, he can give the House any information as to the methods by which Germany is financing her war expenditure?

Germany is financing her war expenditure by taxation, internal borrowing, and various forms of plunder, in cash or goods, from the conquered countries, many of which have a strongly inflationary effect.

Is it not a fact that Germany has been practically bankrupt for many years, and does not my right hon. Friend think that the House should have a little more information as to how the immense supplies required for her war effort are being financed, a large part of such supplies having to be obtained abroad?

It is difficult to deal with this matter by Question and answer. Perhaps at some time in the course of Debate we may go into it.

Perhaps there would be less difficulty if we had less difficulties with the Treasury?

Government Departments (Aliens)

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury which Government Departments are enforcing a rule prohibiting the employment in these Departments of persons who are not both British born and of British born parentage?

In the short time at my disposal I have not had time to complete my inquiries, but I can inform the hon. Member that the rule to which he refers is enforced by the Foreign Office, except for subordinate temporary posts abroad, and is generally followed by the War Office and the Ministry of Supply. Exceptions may be made in the case of shortage of suitable candidates or other special circumstances.

As this involves a matter of principle, can the right hon. and gallant Gentleman state why so absurd a rule is still in operation in this country, and does he realise that if it were applied, the Prime Minister himself would be affected by it? May we have a reply?

It has been a very long-standing rule, and as I say, in certain special cases it may have to be modified. Generally speaking, however, I think the rule is acceptable and a correct one.

Can my right hon. and gallant Friend give a reason for thinking the rule is reasonable? It sounds manifestly absurd, and everybody looks upon it in that way.

I cannot say that now. That is not the Question on the Paper. If, however, my hon. Friend requires a reasoned reply, I should prefer him to put down the Question rather than that I should now make some unpremeditated statement.

That depends on what the Question is. The hon. Member could ask me what Government Departments are enforcing the rule. That is a different thing from the merits of the rule itself.

Is it not a fact that more Government Departments are enforcing it than he has stated?

Cement Supplies

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Buildings whether he is prepared to make a statement with regard to the position of cement supplies?

Yes, Sir, and I am glad to do so as there appears to be some misapprehension on the matter. It is a mistake to suppose that the cement industry has not been progressive. Since 1930 its output has practically doubled, and during the three years prior to the war the capacity of the industry was increased by over 25 per cent. In the early part of the war the industry had no difficulty in fulfilling all orders punctually, but during the middle of the summer a sudden and abnormal demand set in. Since then, the industry has been working to capacity, and all idle works that were capable of being started up were started up. In order to ensure the equitable distribution of cement, the Government introduced a voucher system. This did not work altogether satisfactorily, and local shortages occurred, partly due to the issue of vouchers and partly to transport difficulties. With the formation of this Ministry, the industry is now controlled, and the question of making provision for the manufacture of blast furnace and other types of cement, and for laying down additional plant is under active consideration. As, however, there are at present ample supplies of cement for all purposes and there are over 250,000 tons already in stock, my Noble Friend has decided to discontinue the voucher system. It will, therefore, be possible for all persons requiring cement to obtain their requirements subject to transport exigencies. I would like to say that recognition is due to the men who, in the face of enemy attacks, have been, and are to-day, working under very stern difficulties.

While thanking my hon. Friend for that reply, will he clear up one point and say whether the Cement Controller has any private interest in the cement industry?

The Cement Controller has an interest in the industry in the manufacture and distribution, but he has no financial interest. The Controller is Mr. Hugh Beaver.

Is not this the only positive action that my hon. Friend's Noble Friend has undertaken since be accepted office?

Can my hon. Friend say whether the Cement Controller is paid by the industry or by the Government?

Will my hon. Friend give an assurance to the House that, in considering future developments, he will give every opportunity for people outside the combine to confer with him?

Certainly, we shall never organise ourselves against consultation or information that will be helpful in promoting the best services that this branch of the industry can discharge.

Does my hon. Friend not know thoroughly well that in the past they have been denied any opportunity of consultation with the trade?

Conduct of a Member

Ordered that a Message be sent to the Lords to request that their Lordships will be pleased to give leave to the Viscount Simon, Lord Chancellor, and the Lord Nathan to attend to be examined as Witnessess before the Select Committee on the Conduct of a Member.—[ Colonel Gretton. ]

Message from the Lords

That they have passed a Bill, intituled " An Act to remove the limit on the number of members of the Scottish Fisheries Advisory Council constituted under the Reorganisation of Offices (Scotland) Act, 1939." [Scottish Fisheries Advisory Council Bill [ Lords. ]

SCOTTISH FISHERIES ADVISORY COUNCIL BILL [Lords.]

Read the First time; to be read a Second time upon the next Sitting Day.

Chairman's Panel

In pursuance of Standing Order No. 80 (4), Mr. SPEAKER has nominated Major Sir Cyril Fullard Entwistle, Mr. William Leonard, Colonel Sir Charles Glen Mac-Andrew, Mr. Gordon Macdonald, Major James Milner, Colonel Charles Edward Ponsonby, Sir Robert Workman Smith, Colonel Sir Albert Lambert Ward, Commander Charles Williams, and Sir Robert Young to be the Chairman's Panel during this Session.

Ecclesiastical Committee

In pursuance of the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919 (9 and 10 Geo. V., C. 76, S. 2 (2), Mr. SPEAKER has nominated Sir John Smedley Crooke to serve for the duration of the present Parliament, upon the Ecclesiastical Committee, in the room of the Right Honourable Viscount Wolmer, resigned.

Public Accounts

Sir Irving Albery, Mr. Benson, Sir Edmund Brocklebank, Captain Crookshank, Mr. Culverwell, Sir George Davies, Mr. Horabin, Mr. Jagger, Mr. Lathan, Mr. Lewis, Mr. Magnay, Mr. Pethick- Lawrence, Sir Assheton Pownall, Sir Isidore Salmon and Sir Robert Smith nominated Members of the Committee of Public Accounts.—[ Mr. Boulton. ]

Public Petitions

Ordered,

" That a Select Committee be appointed, to whom shall be referred all Petitions presented to the House, with the exception of such as relate to Private Bills, and that such Committee do classify and prepare abstracts of the same in such form and manner as shall appear to them best suited to convey to the House all requisite information respecting their contents, and do report the same from time to time to the House; and that the Reports of the Committee do set forth, in respect of each Petition, the number of signatures which are accompanied by addresses, and which are written on sheets headed in every case by the prayer of the Petition, provided that on every sheet after the first the prayer may be reproduced in print or by other mechanical process; and that such Committee have power to direct the printing in extenso of such Petitions, or of such parts of Petitions, as shall appear to require it; and that such Committee have power to report their opinion and observations thereupon to the House."

Committee nominated of Lieut.-Colonel Acland Troyte, Mr. Batey, Mr. Beechman, Sir Edward Campbell, Mr. Chater, Sir Reginald Clarry, Mr. Daggar, Captain Alan Graham, Captain Hambro, Sir Percy Hurd, Brigadier-General Sir Ernest Makins, Mr. Wilfrid Roberts, Mr. Marcus Samuel, Sir Annesley Somerville and Mr. Viant.

Ordered,

" That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers and records."

Ordered,

" That Three be the quorum."—[ Mr. Boulton. ]

Publications and Debates Reports

Ordered,

" That a Select Committee be appointed to assist Mr. Speaker, in the arrangements for the Report of Debates and to inquire into the expenditure on Stationery and Printing for this House and the public services generally."

Committee nominated of Sir Reginald Clarry, Mr. Cluse, Mr. Emery, Sir Francis Fremantle, Mr. Isaacs, Dr. Morrison, Mr. Naylor, Mr. Storey, Rear-Admiral Sir Murray Sueter, Mr. Graham White and Mr. Charles Williams.

Ordered,

" That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers and records."

Ordered,

"That the Committee have power to report from time to time."

Ordered,

"That Three be the quorum."—[Mr. Boulton.]

Kitchen and Refreshment Rooms (House of Commons)

Ordered,

"That a Select Committee be appointed to control the arrangements for the Kitchen and Refreshment Rooms in the department of the Serjeant-at-Arms attending this House."

Ordered,

"That the Committee do consist of Seventeen Members."

Committee accordingly nominated of Sir Ernest Bennett, Sir Reginald Blair, Sir William Brass, Mr. Douglas Cooke, Viscountess Davidson, Sir James Edmondson, Sir Henry Fildes, Mrs. Hardie, Mr. Horabin, Mr. Leonard, Mr. Liddall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Moore, Mr. Robert Morrison, Mr. Muff, Sir Assheton Pownall, Mr. Bracewell Smith and Colonel Sir A. Lambert Ward.

Ordered,

"That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers and records."

Ordered,

"That Three be the quorum."—[ Mr. Boulton. ]

Orders of the Day

King's Speech

Debate on the Address

[FIFTH DAY.]

Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [21

"That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty as followeth:

Most Gracious Sovereign,

We, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, in Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to Your Majesty for the Gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament."—[ Squadron-Leader Grant-Ferris. ]

Question again proposed.

Alien Internees

I make no apology for taking advantage of the opportunity afforded by this Debate to draw attention to some of the problems and difficulties associated with the internment of aliens. This question has in recent times been a frequent subject of discussion in this House. There has appeared on the Order Paper a multitude of questions, and within the last hour there have been signs of the utmost interest in matters associated with the problems connected with the internment of aliens in this country. I think it would not be unfair or extravagant to say that the interest displayed in the House is equalled by the interest in the country as a whole, and that the population generally share the desire, which is so frequently expressed here, that these unfortunate people should at least be treated decently and equitably while they are detained in camps or elsewhere in this country. It is no desire of mine, or of those with whom I am associated, to indulge in anything that can be regarded as narrow, carping criticism of the Minister or of his Department. There have been encouraging signs during the last week or two in the statements that have been made by my right hon. Friend in relation to this matter. We would hope —at any rate, I speak definitely for myself, and I think I may speak for others —that in what may be said in the course of the Debate to-day, he may find support and encouragement in the continuance of his useful activities.

I have seen it stated or suggested that the frequency of Debates in this House upon questions relating to aliens and internees might induce foreign critics to think that the interned alien is the victim of a policy of deliberate persecution in this country. I say deliberately that I believe there is no good foundation for such a charge. No one in this House will challenge the contention that the security of the State is, especially in time of war, paramount, and that during war-time the onus of proving good will and the right to liberty rests upon the citizens of enemy countries; or again, that a few brief months ago there were perilous threats of danger—seen more clearly now perhaps, and no one denies it. It also has to be said that this House and the country have approved, as we have been reminded to-day, the policy of the general internment of enemy aliens. I submit—I think this is the feeling of those who, like myself, have raised this question from time to time—that that policy should have been accompanied by arrangements, speedily made, framed in a spirit of generous understanding and toleration, to determine how and whether detention was to continue. Indiscriminate internment inevitably brought to light evidence of what looked like double persecution, firstly by the Nazis and the Fascists, and secondly by ourselves. Unfortunately it has to be said that administrative incompetence or lack of co-ordination, subsequently admitted, I believe, added cruelty to an appearance of injustice.

I have no desire to take up the time of the House in reciting again the painful and humiliating mistakes associated with the rounding-up and the locking-up of these unfortunate people. These mistakes are still in course of being rectified; some, unfortunately, can never be rectified, because the victims are beyond our reach. I am not indifferent to the difficulties confronting my right hon. Friend in dealing with this problem. We all know that we are fighting a cunning and an unscrupulous foe. We know that pressure of a devilish kind is put upon unfortunate wretches who have sought refuge here through their families who are still resident in enemy-occupied territory or in enemy territory. We know that some whom we have hitherto regarded as colleagues in free democratic movements have been subjected to such vicious in- fluence that they have ultimately broken down and have become the unwilling agents of the gangster Powers. We know that among the alien critics of our administration are some who would not bear examination of a very close kind so far as their real opposition to Nazism is concerned. But knowing all this, there still remains the feeling with many of us that the discrimination shown by the authorities has not been of the standard we are entitled to expect. I could from my own experience, as many internees have also done, pay tribute to the sympathy and understanding of the police and the military in particular respects. But their general attitude towards political internees in particular and of many of the other sections of aliens has revealed an ignorance of fundamentals that is entirely inexcusable. They have shown over and over again that the alphabet of that business in many cases has not been understood.

Experience in that direction has caused questions to arise as to whether that kind of conception of affairs is responsible for a situation in which, for instance, constituents of mine who fought for Britain in the last war are regarded as ineligible for membership of the Home Guard, or for employment in armament factories because their parents were not of British birth, while a foreign princeling reputed to be a notorious Fascist is given a commission in our own or allied air forces; also why a noble lady, regarded as being a Nazi agent, moving in so-called highest circles and therefore conceivably more dangerous is provided with facilities to visit her friends abroad presumably there to carry on the good work in which she has been engaged heretofore. I am sure I do my right hon. Friend no injustice when I say that, in other circumstances, I can easily imagine him using those powers of persuasion with which he is so generously endowed, in condemnation of a situation like that.

I do not know whether it would be convenient to my hon. Friend to give the names of persons to whom he is referring so that we may make inquiries.

The names of the persons are contained in questions which were before the House a few days ago. I think my right hon. Friend will recall that there was a question concerning the Princess Hohenlohe. It is sometimes alleged that since the policy of general internment was instituted—with, as I believe, general public approval—there has been a change in public sentiment. That is attributed by some to the receding of danger but that explanation in my opinion is not quite the true one. Guided by the Press and by Debates in this House public opinion here and elsewhere has been outraged by the knowledge that public men who had consistently over a period of years, taken a public and prominent part in opposition to the Nazi and Fascist systems and who were known to be friendly to the Allied cause, should still have been arrested, treated as prisoners of war and interned. Even under the most rigorous application of the principle of internment, those men and women might have been protected from internment, or if interned might have been released with general approval. But they were forgotten. Categories of exemption which permitted the release of thousands did not include them. Finally, they were covered by clause 19 of the White Paper, although in my opinion and that of many others who have taken up this question they ought to have been mentioned as clause 1. Nevertheless for the most part they are still interned, although thousands of others have been released.

It is one of the ironies of the situation that the House of Commons should have forgotten those politicians, journalists and other public men of German, Austrian and Italian origin who made themselves hated by their dictators and were known to be our allies. There arises in my mind as I speak a memory of an Austrian Socialist M.P. with whom I was brought into contact. He was a man who for 30 years had carried on public work which was well known in this country and outside it and which should have placed him beyond any question of internment. I think too of a German Socialist M.P., a consistent opponent of Hitler in his own country and a man who was courageous to a degree. But in spite of all that he is still interned here in Great Britain. Those are men who have public consciences, who have had public influence, and who may have public influence again. Is it wise that they should be relegated here to five months' forced internment? Is there not special need for urgency in their cases, or for some priority of procedure in dealing with them? Should not their files take an early place in the queue of cases, not only because of their public record but also because in their cases the incalculable delays of the Home Office have, inevitably and rightly, had added unto them the delays of a tribunal—an expert and well-trained tribunal it is true, but composed of busy people who can only afford in some cases to meet once a week?

Then there are the unfortunate cases of the internment of friendly aliens connected with refugee industries established in this country, for instance in the Treforest Estate in Wales and the Team Valley Trading Estate in the North of England. Those undertakings were established with Government encouragement and support, and, I believe, a substantial measure of Government financial assistance. They are entirely new enterprises. Businesses which had not hitherto existed in this country have been set up with a considerable measure of success. Hundreds of British workers had been trained and employed in them. Valuable and now much-needed export trade has been secured while new processes have been developed. In several cases the turnover in these industries, notwithstanding the short period since they have been established, ranges from £1,500 to £2,500 a month and I have seen particulars of one firm, whose turnover—the character of the goods manufactured and their costly nature may perhaps explain it—was no less than £15,000,000 a year. And yet the key-men of such undertakings have been interned, are still interned and in some cases have been sent to Canada. Contemporaneously with this—and the irony will be obvious to everyone—Government Departments like the Department of Overseas Trade and the Ministry of Food have been urging those concerns to continue to develop their businesses, because of the value of their contributions to the national effort, particularly as far as the production of food and the work of the Overseas Trade Department are concerned.

I want to be not only critical but constructive. I urge my right hon. Friend to continue the good work of brightening up and hurrying up the administration of his Department in this respect. I, per- sonally, feel confident that appeals of that character will not fall upon deaf ears. The conditions of release are now well known. They are consistent one with another. They do not change from day to day. What is wanted now is neither undue haste which may endanger security, nor a leisurely review of cases which may not be completed before the end of the war. We want ordinary business efficiency. The administration should be speeded up and adapted to the change in conditions which has taken place in recent times. Mistakes and delays constitute events in the life history of some of these unfortunate individuals. For instance, the Italian who was about to embark for the United States as an imigrant but who was arrested, taken to a place of internment here and then deported to Australia will never forget the incident. In his case the list of those to be interned did not happen to have been checked with the Home Office list. There is another case of an Italian, whose release the Home Secretary had ordered but who was shipped to Canada and is still there.

Fortunately, deportation has now ceased but the same kind of experience is, unfortunately, still the lot of some internees. On 25th November last the police called at the address of a young German student. I will, of course, give names and details if desired to my right hon. Friend. They demanded explanations of why he did not register after his release. This young German was given permission to continue his studies under Clause 21 and on 19th November the Home Secretary had ordered his release for this purpose. Meanwhile on 24th October, being unaware of what had taken place, he joined the Pioneer Corps, and on 25th November, when the police paid their visit, he was serving in His Majesty's Forces. Between 24th October and 25th November the entry had not been made in his file, and the police were not informed. The file was, no doubt, at the end of a long queue of correspondence in the Home Office.

I have no doubt whatever that at a later stage we shall be informed, quite properly, of the orders for release which have been issued. That there have been a substantial number I will not for a single moment deny, but an order for release and an actual release are different things. Between an order and its fulfilment there may be an interval of weeks or even months. This is a stage in procedure where speeding-up would not endanger security. Indeed, an expedition of proceedings is very badly needed. I think the Minister is convinced of that. Cannot there be an application of those common-sense methods and workmanlike justice upon which we British sometimes pride ourselves? I wonder sometimes whether in the choice of personnel for tribunals the Home Office has not too closely tied itself to the legal profession. The delays of the law are notorious; here they may easily be dangerous as well as dreadfully unfair.

Then there is the question of the segregation or separation of those who must be detained. With other hon. and right hon. Members of this House I have had the advantage of serving on the Council of Aliens which was set up in August of this year. The industry of that Council can be gauged when I state that they have made approximately 100 recommendations for the consideration of the Home Office. Here again I gladly admit that in many cases they have acted. Among their earliest recommendations were that separate camps should be provided for aliens from Germany, Austria and the Sudetenland; that there should be separation of the A, B and C classes; and that there should be classification of Germans into Nazis and anti-Nazis. This could be done without substantial difficulty and a similar process carried out with regard to the classification of Italians into Fascists and anti-Fascists. Then there should be the provision of separate camps for classified internees. There should be family camps where husbands and wives could be brought together and ultimately, it is hoped, be joined by their children. The human side of this question will, I am sure, be speedily recognised. Something has been done in all these directions, and I respectfully urge on the Minister that there is room for very much more. I think he will share my convictions if he inquires into the matter.

Cannot something more be done than has been done with regard to the utilization of the skill and knowledge, often of a highly specialised character, which is possessed by internees? Idleness is not good for them; indeed, it might easily prove to be dangerous. Is there not room also for more educational work? Without indulging in obviously blatant propaganda, cannot steps be taken by discussion, or lectures by responsible, representative people, to ensure a better understanding of the basis and purpose of our industrial and economic arrangements and the democratic system which we mean to maintain and extend? Many internees are men and women with experience and understanding whose minds would be receptive. Many look forward to returning to a new Germany purged of the evils which now possess that land. What a pity if they returned with biased or distorted views or if the wells of international peace and good will were poisoned by a virus deriving from real injustices they have endured here. Attention to the questions I have referred to and others equally important, which I do not doubt will be mentioned by other Members in the course of this Debate will help substantially to avoid such a situation. I therefore urge with all the emphasis I possess that my right hon. Friend should extend and accelerate as quickly as possible the attention which he has given to these and other problems associated with alien internees.

I would like to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for the Park Division of Sheffield (Mr. Lathan) on the very able speech which he has made and the clear arguments which he has advanced on this important aspect of Home Office administration. I thank him for the moderation and friendliness with which he has put his case. I know that my hon. Friend has for a considerable time taken a personal interest in the welfare of internees and the general principles of administration. I know also that he, with other hon. Members, in earlier times lifted his voice in eloquent protest against the persecution of political and racial categories by the Nazi Government of Germany before the outbreak of war. I wish to thank him for his contribution to the Debate to-day. My hon. Friend said—I think it needs to be said, and I am very glad that he said it, because it comes better from him than from the Home Secretary—that any allegations of deliberate and cruel persecution of the internees by the Government would be utterly un- founded. That is the kind of allegation one would expect from enemy propaganda, but it is not the kind of allegation, I am sure, that will be made in this House. I am glad that my hon. Friend repudiated any such suggestion.

My hon. Friend referred to a number of matters to which I also will refer in the course of my speech. He recognised what was the state of public opinion at the time when the policy of general internment was adopted, and the difficulties in the matter. It was, of course, the case that the police were faced with a difficult task, and I agree with my hon. Friend that they have carried out that task with consideration and circumspection. There was no responsibility on the police as to the decision who should be interned and who should not be interned. The decision rested with the Government and the police had to carry out their orders; and I am sure nobody would suggest that the police ought to be saddled with the task of discriminating as to who should be interned.

Surely, my right hon. Friend knows that in practice the police did exercise that discrimination, and still do.

The police gave advice and that advice was taken into account, but the responsibility as to who should be interned rested, quite properly, with Ministers, and except in emergency cases, where the Regional Commissioner is consulted, the police have not a general right —and did not have a general right—of selecting who should be or should not be interned. As my hon. Friend said, there has been, particularly in the early stages, some delay between the order for release and actual release. I regret that, and I can assure the House that I have taken most vigorous steps to see that there shall be no undue delay as far as the official machinery is concerned. There are, however, cases where some delay may be necessary in order that arrangements may be made for the accommodation and maintenance of the person who is to be released. Sometimes there are questions of illness and similar difficulties which occasion a delay which is really in the interests of the person who is to be released, and there are also postal delays. But I admit frankly that there have been some cases of delay, which I am not going to defend, and which I will do my best to shorten and speed up in the course of administration.

Apart from the cases which my right hon. Friend has given, what should be a reasonable period, in his opinion, between the announcement that an alien is to be released and the actual release?

If everything works smoothly, if there is accommodation, no question of illness, no family difference, and so on, I should hope that in the ordinary way it would not be more than a fortnight, and indeed, I hope not more than ten days.

I ask my right hon. Friend to remember where the aliens are. They are on the Isle of Man. If the hon. Member will think of the time which it sometimes takes to get from one part of London to another, he will be able to imagine that it may be a matter of some days. I assure the House that I would like to get the delay reduced to the period I have mentioned, and I will do my best to do so.

The whole of this subject is one of great difficulty and considerable pain. I recognise, as did my predecessor, that among the people who are interned there is a substantial number who, it is highly probable, and indeed pretty certain, are genuine friends of this country. I take no pleasure in the fact that they are interned. I will sort them out and get them out as quickly as I can. I understand the feelings of hon. Members, and indeed, I share those feelings. It will be part of my duty to-day to explain to the House what has happened, what the machinery is, and the improvements which I am making.

It was the case, before the policy of general internment, that aliens were selected for internment after inquiry. Then came the over-running of Denmark, Norway, Holland, and Belgium, and in the course of that over-running, there was a good deal of treachery, not wholly on the part of aliens, but in a number of cases on the part of nationals of the country concerned. That is why quite a considerable number of British subjects have been interned as well; they have been dealt with. But it was apprehended—it was thought possible—that some of the refugees from other countries might have been used by the enemy. I do not want to debate this controversy now. There was a good deal of confusion. The House must take its mind back to that period, and the House must take its responsibility in the matter. I was not a Member of the Government at the time, but I was a Member of the House, a Member of the Opposition, and I did not at that time raise my voice against the Government's policy, for I thought that, broadly speaking, it was inevitable and right in the interests of national security. I do not want now, as a Minister, to repudiate a responsibility which I really share because of my acquiescence at that time.

Yes. I am dealing with that change, and I shall tell the House why there will be a change of administration because the circumstances have changed. But it would be idle, and if I may say so with respect, it would be cowardly, on the part of the House if it did not recognise that in the circumstances of that time the policy of general internment reflected the overwhelming feeling of the House. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I am sorry that some hon. Members do not agree, but I would point out to them that it would have been possible for the Government to have been tested at that time. There was no real challenge to the decision of the Government. A Motion could have been tabled, a Debate could have taken place, and there could have been a Division. Indeed, on 22nd August, two months afterwards, there was a Debate, but there was no Division. The only way for critics of the Government, if they form a substantial minority of the House, to express their feelings against the Government is by Motion, Debate and Division. That course could have been followed.

My right, hon. Friend will remember that the policy of general internment began to be put into operation in the latter weeks of May and the early weeks of June—that is to say, about the time when there was a change of Government, and when it was not at all easy for a Private Member or a group of Members to get Government time for a general discussion about a matter the scope and width of which became clear to Members only as the weeks proceeded.

I do not wish to dispute the matter with my hon. Friend, but if there is a strong and substantial feeling in the House, the House will find a way of expressing itself.

It did not. I have read the Debates and I remember the feeling of the House at the time. On 10th July, for instance, my hon. Friend the Member for Derby (Mr. Noel-Baker) said—and presumably he was speaking for his hon. Friends on that side of the House—

When my hon. Friend speaks in these Debates, he does speak in some representative capacity, but if he disagrees with me, will withdraw that remark. He has been quite prominent in these Debates, and in the speech to which I have referred, he put the case moderately. He said:

"Let me remove one or two points of prejudice, if I may so call them. For my part, I am not against a policy of internment of refugees at a moment when there is danger of invasion, and I know, as the hon. Lady the Member for Frome (Mrs. Tate) said, that many refugees are not against internment, and that some of them welcome it."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 10th July, 1940; Col. 1290; Vol. 362.]

That puts the case perfectly moderately. The country was in danger of invasion at the time this decision was taken. The Armed Forces of the Crown were apprehensive, and not unreasonably apprehensive, that if there were very large numbers of aliens at liberty, their difficulties in the field, in case of invasion, might have been complicated and made more difficult. I do not think that in the circumstances of that time—and I thought so then—it was unreasonable for the Government to adopt a general policy of internment.

Since my right hon. Friend has referred to something which I said, I should like to point out that it was, after all, on 10th July. I thought then that many mistakes had been made, that the policy had been pressed too far and that reforms should be introduced without delay. However, my right hon. Friend knows that we do not want to discuss the past. We want to turn the right hon. Gentleman's mind to the future. He has already made great changes which we welcome. We only wish to urge him to do in the field of administration what he has begun to do in the field of policy—to repair the errors which have been made.

I quite agree, but it is not easy to understand the subsequent administration unless one understands what happened at that time.

I do. I thought it was right at the time. A lot of other people thought it was right at the time, and I think it would be better if those people said so now instead of making implications that they did not think it was right. The general policy of internment having been decided on, these administrative problems followed. To intern all aliens is a speedy and rapid operation, but unfortunately it is by no means as speedy and rapid to make selections for release. If the House says that the operation has been on the slow side, I do not have it in my heart to challenge that. On the other hand, I would ask the House to take into account, not as an entirely mitigating circumstance but as a partial mitigating circumstance, the administration problem with which the Department was concerned. It meant a vast amount of extension of responsibility in the work of the Home Office at a time when the whole field of responsibility of government, in all departments, had enormously extended. It came, therefore, at a time when it was not as easy to concentrate and have a free selection of administrators and officers to deal with this work. The Department could not always obtain the officers it wanted. It had to take the best available. The officers of the Department, led by competent and able civil servants, worked hard, and I do not trace in the Department any lack of understanding, any spiteful feeling or vindictiveness against the persons interned.

It was an enormous task. Those interned were in the region of 26,000 or 27,000 persons. Records had to be made and records had to be kept. Then came consideration of the policy of releases. Committees were set up, and that takes a little time, because in many cases people asked to sit on those committees could not do so and others had to be found. The machinery of administration had to be evolved, and enormous numbers of letters came in, all of which had to be answered. Consequently it will be agreed, I think, that the Department was faced with an exceedingly heavy task.

If the House says that there were imperfections in administration, I freely admit it, although some of the imperfections were inevitable in the very difficult circumstances. One of the major points often made in these discussions—and it is a very understandable point—is that there ought to be a quicker and easier method of sorting out among the aliens the real friends from the real enemies. We are now reaching a point when, as I announced to the House last week, we are-going to deal with that very large miscellaneous number of aliens who do not find it easy to prove themselves one way or another. The House will fully recognise that, apart from prominent people whose records are known, it is not easy to decide on the face of it whether a person is friendly or not. These people do not carry a label, and you cannot see it in their person or face. Therefore, in the case of those who are not known, some sort of inquiry must be made. I accept the principle entirety, and so do the Government, that those who are prepared to fight in the Allied cause should be welcomed into our ranks, whatever their nationality may be. I fully recognise that and accept it; indeed, I am anxious that it should be done.

Of course, it is the case that you cannot make all aliens black or white, or whatever the appropriate colour may be. Inevitably there is a large proportion of them who are not easy to classify. Some of them are not strongly Nazi or anti-Nazi, and we have not only to test their general opinion and their general loyalty, but we must try to estimate how they would have acted, or would react, if the enemy were to invade this country. Of course, the possibility of invasion has not by any means been removed. The scheme of categories set out in the White Paper was designed to make possible the release of persons whom it was possible to define. I quite agree that the number of persons out of the total likely to be covered by these categories would not cover substantially the whole of the interned persons. That is why I made the announcement last week in regard to our method for dealing with the remainder. Categories are definitions, and people have to prove that they come within them, which is not always easy for them to do. It is the case that categories do not cover the whole field of interned aliens. Nevertheless, for one reason or another, up to the present, within the categories, and by certain other means, because the Home Secretary deals with cases outside the categories, there have been released from internment round about 8,000 persons.

That includes all, whether non-Fascists or Fascists, or whatever their categories are.

No, Sir. These are aliens released from internment. It does not include British subjects.

Am I right in understanding that these people have been released, or does that mean orders for release?

These are authorisations. The authorised releases are round about 8,000, and there remain in internment roughly 19,500.

Does it include internees in Australia and Canada?

Anyone interned under Defence of the Realm Regulation 18B?

The 19,500 are still there, but, of those, round about 4,000, I understand, are classified in category A. That is to say, that evidence exists that they are unfriendly, and there is no substantial argument in the House as to them. That leaves you with round about 15,500 yet to be dealt with, and so the number yet to be dealt with is roughly in the proportion of two to one as against persons whose release has been authorised; and, with the wider field of consideration which I announced last week, I hope those numbers will be materially reduced without undue delay. Some of the categories are capable of definition—for example, categories 19 and 22. Category 19 I freely admit is a quite restricted category. The language is very precise and tightly drawn, and it does not deal with the friendly alien who is outside the class of people who have publicly and in a prominent way demonstrated over a period of years their opposition to the Nazi regime. Category 19, which is a valuable category, comprises cases demonstrable to the committees. But we have now reached the stage when we are going to ask the committees to examine those cases and come to as fair a judgment as they can make on the basis of judging the appearance, the mentality and the type of person who comes before the committee.

Could the right hon. Gentleman give us some kind of estimate of how long it will take that tribunal, which is also the tribunal dealing with the category 19, to reach the new category and deal with it, as there are 2,000 cases of them?

No, the 2,000 would come under the new category 22 dealing with old residents who have proved their reliability. That is dealt with by the same tribunal. One tribunal has to deal with two different categories, and there are 2,000 in the second. How long would it take to deal with them? Years, perhaps.

I cannot say. I do not propose to say. I do not know whether the hon. Lady enjoys being pessimistic. I hope it will not take years. I will deal with it with all practicable speed. I pro- pose to increase the field of inquiry and the field of committees so that they can be dealt with with great speed. Let us be as cheerful as we can and not talk about years when I think there is no need to do so.

There were the other categories where aliens were entitled to have consideration of their cases brought forward if they could prove special knowledge, particular skill and so on, in industry, and now it is being considered on a wider basis to include skilled workmen as well. In cooperation with the Ministry of Labour a census is being taken of internees with industrial qualifications in order that they can be more readily considered for release and become part of the national war effort. It might be asked why should they have a bias in their favour as against the issue of security. No one would wish us to forget the issue of security, but I think it would be right to take a somewhat greater risk than in other cases. One has to balance the great advantage to the nation of getting their skill employed in industry as against some risk on security grounds, and that is the case for special consideration there.

A bigger field is the question of the wider miscellaneous body of aliens who do not come within any of the categories at all. That matter was referred to the Asquith Committee. I think hon. Members will agree that that was a fair-minded body of people and that Mr. Justice Asquith was exceedingly anxious to do the very best he could with an admittedly difficult problem. The Committee went through all the arguments, pro and con, in this vexed problem of deciding, in what I might call the unprovable cases, the method of finding out who was for us and who might not be so, and for reasons which I thought satisfactory, they rejected most of the suggestions that had been made. They said there was no easy road to this classification. You could not lay down definitions, and be able to administer them, with any precision. If you laid down definitions it would tend to keep people in rather than let them out. It may be that these committees will keep people in who some people think ought to be let out, and it may mean that in a number of cases they will let people out, who, other people think, ought to be kept in. But they said the only thing to do was to choose committees of sensible fair-minded people who would come to their conclusions, after questioning them, discussing their background, outlook, and so on, as to whether they could safely be released. I admit that there are risks about it, but I think it is the common-sense thing to do and, if we did not do it, we should go on, knowing that we were keeping in internment a substantial number of people against whom there are no' reasonable grounds for suspicion and who ought not to be kept in confinement.

They are probably people who have been before the earlier tribunals and the regional advisory committees. They were classified. But that does not alter the case. As things stand, I do not think I should be right, and I think it would cause trouble, if, just as we made a clean sweep in, we made something like a clean sweep out. I think public opinion is very level and very sensible about this business now. I beg the House to remember that, if we go too far the other way, as against the policy of May, we might well provoke public opinion to be difficult, even from the point of view that hon. Members are pressing upon me. It is a point worthy of keeping in mind. If my right hon. Friend does not worry too much about public opinion I, at least, must worry about it, because I want my administration to be level and progressive and not subject to violent swayings in public opinion. From his own point of view, it is the wisest thing to do.

With regard to those of military age, we have taken the view that they should be given the opportunity, which already existed, to join the Pioneer Corps. It may be the case in a number of instances that they were rather hanging back from joining the Pioneer Corps because they felt that further categories would come. For that reason I have thought it wise to make clear that the Government take the view quite firmly that it is not unreasonable in the case of interned aliens, remembering that compulsory military service applies to British subjects, that if they say they are friends of this country and the Allied cause, and if they are of military age and are fit for service, they should undertake that service. It is the easiest way of proving their loyalty to the British and Allied cause, and, incidentally, it saves the almost impossible task of trying to examine the very large number of cases individually. If that were done then, indeed, the process would be much slower than would otherwise be the case. By this means we have broadly covered the whole field; it may be not everybody, but broadly we can say that practically everybody now has a chance of proper consideration under one method or the other.

Having settled the policy, to which I think the House generally assents as being the best way of dealing with the problem, there remains the problem of delays. When I arrived in the Department and examined the complaints of hon. Members, and when I got the first draft answers to questions in the House, I realised that there was a case to look into to ascertain whether the machinery of administration was right and was moving as quickly as it ought to move. I would remind the House again of the difficulties of the Department, and I would like to pay my tribute to the good feeling and spirit and the desire to do the right thing which animates the officers of the Department. Sometimes delays are necessary because of inquiries which have to be made and because there has to be much correspondence. I am going to say something which I do not want the House to regard as a complaint, but it is the case that in many instances a substantial number of persons write on behalf of an alien. Not one Member, but sometimes a dozen, write about a particular case. I am not complaining in the least, but I would only point out that that adds to the correspondence which has to be dealt with in the Department. I am not complaining about it, because we are at the service of the House, but I am putting the point that it does cause a little delay.

The letters of Members of the House are taken very seriously in the Department. Every time a Member writes, inquiries have to go, not down the long single corridor which my hon. Friend mentioned, but down very complicated corridors in a building which is not suited for good administration. We have gone to another building now, which I think, on balance, will be better. The file of the case about which inquiries are being made has to be found, and ultimately it gets to the Home Office and goes to my hon. Friend or me or to the officers of the Department in order that the letter may be answered. Then the file goes back again—

I agree, but usually they do find the file. There are difficulties about that, as I have found out already. I have pointed out the physical conditions under which the Department is working. The file may be in another department altogether, because there are other departments which may be concerned in these cases. The file floats about, and it is difficult sometimes to put one's hand on it. I am not surprised at that. When the file goes back, they get on with the work again. Then another letter comes, and the file must come back again, and so the process goes on. I am not making this statement by way of complaint, but to indicate that, although the aliens themselves are firmly convinced that the more people who write for them the quicker their cases will be dealt with, it often works out that the opposite is the case.

I would suggest in that connection what I have previously suggested. I think it will be found that most of the subsequent Members who write are unconscious of the fact that previous Members have written. If the subsequent Members were informed of that, there would probably be a cessation of the correspondence.

I am much obliged to my hon. Friend, and I have urged that the same thing should be done. It does not, however, necessarily follow that the file will not have to be sent for, because they have to find out whether another Member has already written. The respect and awe in which the Home Office holds Members of Parliament is a very difficult thing to modify.

I am sorry to find myself in some dissonance with my hon. Friend on this side of the House, but I must say that my experience has been that the Home Office, especially the right hon. Gentleman and the Under-Secretary, have been most prompt in replying about these cases.

If that is so, it looks as if there has been some discrimination, and perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will inquire into that.

It is not a question of judgment but of experience, and I think the noble Lord will find that his experience has been unique.

I have found exactly the same; it is a most efficient Department.

I am grateful to have these testimonials. The House will appreciate that I do not make any sweeping admissions or condemnations. What I am saying is that there has been a number of cases in which the handling of the correspondence has disturbed me. I freely admit it, and I want to do all I can to deal with it. I am sure that there is no particular favouritism to the noble Lord. His letters, like those of other Members of the House, would be treated with the respect which is their due. I can only explain the difference between his experience and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Silverman) by saying that perhaps the technique of the noble Lord is better. Perhaps they will confer together and exchange experiences.

Since my right hon. Friend has gone into the Department with so much satisfaction to all of us he has had a number of letters from me, and if he can give me any tips as to how my technique can be improved, I shall be very grateful.

On the other hand, if my hon. Friend will, as I am sure he can, give me any tips, I shall be grateful. The Department has now been moved to new premises, and that may cause a little delay. Those premises have their advantages and disadvantages, but I think that on balance the improvement will lead to acceleration. In view of the complaints which I have had from Members about delays, I said to the Department, "The House of Commons is in a nasty temper about these delays, and we must have an investigation." Therefore, I decided to bring in, not a civil servant, but an outside business consultant, an expert in ordinary commercial business organisation, to look over the whole place, to examine the procedure and the whole field of administration, and to make suggestions whereby the organisation could be improved from the point of view of an ordinary business administration. I do not give the name of that gentleman, and I hope I shall not be pressed for it, because if I gave it, half the aliens would write to him thinking he was the man to let them out. That is not his business; it is to advise on the business organisation of the office.

With the whole administration of the B division of the Home Office. That does not include camps, except in some respects. There has been some criticism about the release of anti-Fascists and anti-Nazis, but with that I have dealt. Let us see what the wording of category 19 is. It is very narrow, and I think for the purpose in view it had to be so:

"Any person as to whom a tribunal appointed by the Secretary of State for the purpose reports that the information they have of his history shows that by his writings or speeches or political or official activities he has consistently over a period of years taken a public and prominent part in opposition to the Nazi system and is actively friendly towards the Allied cause."

That clearly does mean that he must be a person of some prominence in political activities, and it was meant to be so, and consequently the number of aliens who can come within category 19 must be limited. That is why I have gone farther in the direction indicated.

When these persons of prominence are released, are any steps to be taken to make proper use of their services, or are they to be let loose on the country without anything active to do?

That is not a matter for me but for the State Departments concerned, and I am sure they will keep that point in mind, and no doubt what the hon. Member has said will be taken into account. The House may like to know how far we have got in dealing with category 19 cases, because although I have said they are limited in number theirs are the most dramatic and outstanding cases of the lot. The persons we want to release under this category are the persons who stood up to Nazism or Fascism, and fought it in exceedingly difficult conditions. They were in positions of political responsibility in their country and took risks and showed great bravery in fighting this menace to their country which has now become a menace to Europe. I am inclined to think that category 19, limited though it be, does contain those who are entitled to the most urgent and sympathetic consideration.

Does that definition include those who were members of Labour and Socialist organisations after the Nazis came into power, or must they have done something more dramatic?

The category is not necessarily confined to persons of one political party, or to one specific period.

If a German Conservative could show that he vigorously fought the Nazi régime, certainly he would be eligible for consideration.

He would have to come within the category definition, which requires that he must have been engaged in specific public activities of one sort or another, and prove the point. Up to now only about 200 applications from Germans or Austrians have been received under that category. That is a limited figure and other applications may be made. Of the 200 cases over 100 have been dealt with by the Committee, and only in four cases have the Committee recommended refusal of the application.

I said that these were all Germans or Austrians. In no case has the tribunal's advice been rejected by the Home Secretary—so far. Release has actually been authorised in 82 of the 100 or so cases which have been dealt with by the Committee. Of the remaining cases, many have only recently been received and are being actively considered with a view to decision.

Can the Minister say how many have actually been released?

I could not say. I have given the figure of those authorised for release, and there should not be any material delay in their release unless there are particular difficulties, possibly arising from a man's own circumstances. The case of the Italians is different. There was no previous classification, a point that is sometimes forgotten. There are no A, B and C classes of Italians. The work in respect of the Italians is materially different from that in respect of the Germans, though the numbers are similar. Under whatever category an Italian applies there has to be an examination into the question whether he is friendly or unfriendly. The groundwork of that has not been done in their cases, and all Italian cases must be referred to the Italian Advisory Committee. The number of applications under the various categories is 600, and they have been referred to the committee, and the release of over 100 Italians has been authorised. Those Italians who are found by the committee to be friendly are, generally speaking, anti-Fascists, as one would expect, though not necessarily coming within the definition of category 19.

Applicants do not always state under what category they apply. Sometimes they make a mistake in the category under which they apply and persons released under other categories may also have been eligible under category 19. They probably apply under the category which they think they are most likely to get consideration. The practice has been to refer applications to the Advisory Committee in order of date, because that was felt to be the fairest way. I have been looking into that point, and have come to the conclusion that an exception should be made in the case of category 19 cases. They are outstanding. I am not unsympathetic about the other cases, because many in the other categories are also entitled to a high degree of sympathy, but people who can prove that they were active fighters against the Nazi or Fascist parties and the Nazi or Fascist regimes are entitled to some priority of consideration. Therefore, I have given instructions that priority shall be given to applications under category 19, both in the case of Germans or Austrians and of Italians, and I will see to it that that instruction is observed.

Is there anyone to advise an Italian who is, say, unable to read or write as to the category under which he should apply?

These men are in a camp and should have no difficulty in finding colleagues in the camp who will be willing to advise them. It is also the case that an officer of the Department is willing to advise them how to fill up their forms. I am afraid there are sometimes other people advising them a little bit professionally, and the people who are making this into a kind of business are people whom I do not welcome too much. What these persons want is not professional advice on those lines but the advice of kindly, sensible people.

I come now finally to the difficult point of the internees who were sent to Canada and Australia. I am sorry that I have spoken for so long, but, really, I have been interrupted, although I make no complaint whatsoever on that account. It is a difficult matter. It was not the case that the Government gave a firm order, but there was the desire at the time to relieve the country from the presence of as many aliens as possible, in the light of a possible military invasion. Frankly, it was a desire to get away what might have been a complication for the military, and, rightly or wrongly, that was the decision. The more Nazis and Fascists who could be included, the better it would be, but it was a rushed business. It was a hurried business, and the classification was not perfectly made at all.

It is the case that many anti-Nazis and anti-Fascists went, and that was a blunder —not administratively, because the Government did not decide firmly that only Nazis and Fascists should be sent. It was an administrative desire, naturally, to take away as many of those as possible, but, apart from that, there was, I must admit, a limited number of blunders, for which I am sorry and for which I have expressed regret before. It is the case that hundreds of internees are in Canada and some hundreds are in Australia. They are in charge of the Dominion authorities. Clearly it is a matter of some difficulty for the Dominion Governments to carry through an administration which is our responsibility. They could not undertake the task of classification and so on, and, indeed, I think the House will agree that the responsibility for classification rests upon the Government at home.

Before my right hon. Friend leaves that point, may we have an assurance that steps are being taken to repair the admitted blunders, as, for example, the men from the Treforest Estate who have been sent to Canada? Surely steps are being taken to bring them back.

I was just coining to the point of the action that we are taking. I came to the conclusion, therefore, that the best thing to do would be to send a responsible and suitable officer from the Home Office over to Canada, in order to deal with the matter on the spot.

They are here. I decided to send Mr. Alexander Paterson, who, I think, is well known to many Members of this House. I think hon. Members will agree that he is the right type of man for this kind of work. I have decided to send him to Canada personally, in order to select suitable applicants for the Pioneers.

I understand that he arrived there about a fortnight ago. It was a fairly recent decision. I want him to select applicants for the Pioneers. There are a number of applications. Once the applicants are selected, they will be examined on medical grounds by the naval and military authorities, according to British, not to Canadian, standards, and by arrangement with Mr. Paterson. As soon as that is finished they can come back to join the Pioneers in this country. I am asking him also to select applicants who, prima facie, appear to come within the categories of elegibility. Thirdly, I am asking him to facilitate emigration to America of those who have obtained the necessary visas. If there are some who have visas for entry into the United States of America, it would be foolish to bring them back. If it is all right to the United States Government, and if they wish to go into the United States, they will go. Mr. Paterson will facilitate it. In other suitable cases, release will be given.

Of course, release necessarily involves return to this country. I could not expect the Canadian authorities, and I do not think the House would wish it, to take the responsibility for the selection. Secondly, the Canadian Government could not be expected to abandon their own immigration laws which do not let people into the Dominion of Canada for the purpose of business. Australia presents certain additional problems, because of the distance, but I am hoping to make similar arrangements in the case of aliens who were sent to the Commonwealth of Australia.

What is to happen in the case of the married men who were sent to Australia in the belief or understanding that their wives would follow?

We will do what we can in that matter. I agree and confess that there are difficulties, and possibly misunderstandings did arise about it. I hope that my hon. Friend will not press me unduly about it, because a Dominion Government are involved in it, and I should not like to debate the difficulty across the Floor of the House. I am willing to inform my hon. Friend on the point. I can assure the House that anything that I can do about the matter I will do. Indeed, I have already taken steps to get certain necessary facilities.

Can the right hon. Gentleman do anything to remove the designation "prisoner of war," to which many of these internees object?

I did raise that point, but I am afraid that there is a question of Canadian law. There is no other category under which they come, and I am sorry about it. I should like to do some- thing, and I should like them to be called something else, but I hope that the aliens will not be unduly sensitive about these things, which are not really of substance. It is a pity, but, compared with the situation in which they were in Nazi Germany, being wrongly called is a fairly small thing.

I hope that the House will accept what I have said in the spirit in which I have spoken and will believe that I am anxious sympathetically, effectively, efficiently and as quickly as I can to deal with this matter. I will do everything I can in that direction. I am no more happy than is anybody else with the knowledge that we have under control, admittedly, a number of people who, in all probability, are good friends of this country. On the other hand, I must maintain the principle of individual decision and individual consideration. I must in cases where the issues are balanced fifty-fifty, or a little bit one way or the other, put the bias, if I have to exercise a bias, in favour of the security of our country. It may be that, in some cases, I will keep people under control, some aliens and some of them British, whom I am not dead sure I ought to keep under control; but, as the balancing factor, security has to have it, I am afraid. In the interests of this country, in the long run of the aliens themselves, and of the world, victory and security for this country matter more than anything else. Consistently with what I have said, the House may be sure that I will endeavour to carry through this administration in the spirit that hon. Members would wish, remembering that I have to carry the general assent of the House of Commons and the general assent and approval of British public opinion.

There is one aspect of the matter with which my right hon. Friend has not dealt, and it is in relation to the young people of 16 and 17 years of age who were taken from schools and, in some cases, from their homes, and taken to Canada or Australia. They will not come under any of the categories with which my right hon. Friend has dealt. In some cases their parents have no knowledge of their present conditions.

I think there was a category of persons undergoing education or instruction, generally speaking all young people. Category 2, is it not?

Yes. I think they had to be in some recognised educational establishment. I think it is limited in that way. The right hon. Gentleman said nothing about how that category would be applied to those who were deported.

I will certainly go into that point. I am speaking on the spur of the moment, and I do not want to be committed, but I do not think there is anything to prevent us going into those cases.

The right hon. Gentleman has made his first speech on this question, and I hope it will not be his last. He has had at the Home Office so much to do in connection with far more urgent and important matters that he cannot have had adequate time in which to follow the evil ramifications of this question. I have put down upon the Paper an Amendment based upon this principle, that the general rule should be that innocent people should be free and the exceptions, doubtful people, should be interned. Up till now the Home Office has gone consistently on the principle of general internment and the exceptional release of those people who can prove themselves innocent. The House will see that between those two policies there is direct antagonism. The right hon. Gentleman in his speech said that in May and June the bulk of this House were in favour of universal internment and exceptional liberation. I think he is quite correct, but I think there was a number of us on these and the Liberal benches who could not have accepted that policy even in the midst of a war. However, whatever were the grounds on which the House supported the policy of universal internment in May and June, those grounds no longer exist to-day with the same intensity as they did then. As time goes on I hope that the risks of invasion to this country will grow progressively less. The changes of conquest will vanish, if they have not done so. This policy has got to be changed some time. I hope the time may come when the right hon. Gentleman will effect that change.

I would remind the right hon. Gentleman that Home Secretaries are apt to make one mistake. They think that they are responsible for law, order and se- curity. They are; but they are responsible for something more than law, order and security. They are responsible for the traditions and honour of our country more than any other Minister, and it is only by balancing those two duties, security and the old decencies of English culture and law, that we can win through. The right hon. Gentleman has had a magnificent record in the past; he is almost exceptional in that he has been an administrator and an executive far longer than any other member of the Labour party. I hope that that experience, combined with his political views, will set him on the right track and enable him to break away from the faulty fearful traditions which have been handed on by his predecessor.

One of the difficulties we have to face in this House at the present time is that we no longer change about—the Conservative Government five years, the Liberal Government five years and the Labour Government five years. There is no adequate excuse for any change of policy. Home Secretary follows Home Secretary, not exactly with the same Government but with the same general policy of their predecessors, with the result that a policy worked up by the permanent officials becomes more and more powerful. You do not get a rebel going to the Home Office and saying, "I will change that." He goes there and accepts the policy of his predecessor. He accepts the policy of the officials. In fact, we in this country are getting to a state in which, owing to the absence of the swing of the pendulum, we have a form of Papal infallibility. The Lord President of the Council issues a decree about the internment of all the aliens. A new "Pope" comes along, with all the body of the Cardinals around him in his office, and checks any tendency to deviate from the rules laid down by his predecessors.

We are getting in the Home Office the most conservative body of doctrine and officials, all basing themselves on what has been said and done in the past. There is no chance of breaking away. The right hon. Gentleman has got to break away or sink to their level. To stand up to your permanent officials and insist on a change of policy is difficult. I do not know whether it can be achieved, but I think the right hon. Gentleman is the best chance we are likely to have.

Therefore, I would like to show him to-day how strong is the feeling in this country for a reconsideration of this policy vis-à-vis the internees in favour of what I might call the justice system of enlarging the innocent and retaining in custody the guilty, rather than retaining in custody the innocent and enlarging those who are dangerous. It takes a certain amount of education to see the enormous difference between the two, but any lawyer with knowledge of English law sees it at once. The innocent having to prove themselves innocent is not English law at all. See where you are landed with this policy of universal internment plus isolated enlargement of people coming under different categories. The immediate result is that those who have friends or can acquire friends beg them to try and secure their release. I have managed to get all my friends out except one.

Of course, they are, or they would not be friends of mine. The one who remains is a working man, a skilled artisan with his tools. Of course, he has applied to the A.M.P.C. I took him along to enlist 18 months ago; and he was "ploughed" medically for the A.M.P.C. If one meets any Jew alien who has been interned, one naturally asks him how he got out. This method of exempting those who can make out a case for themselves is not a fair system, and it is particularly hard on the uneducated, on the people for whom my right hon. Friend ought to stand, namely, the Socialists, both Italians and Germans, who were interned, simply on account of their political views. I am afraid we must accept that the police of this country are not all as politically educated as Members of this House. It is notorious that, in the general internment which took place in May and June it depended almost entirely upon the chief constable of the particular district whether a person was interned or not. Some chief constables, particularly in South Wales, for instance, took a generous and what I might call a liberal view of the cases. They examined the reports on every one of the aliens and found adequate reasons for leaving many people at large. In other places the chief constable happened to be a sympathiser with Mosley—and there were a great many people who sympathised with him—and in such cases the Jewish aliens got very short shrift indeed. Further, the basis of each man's dossier is the police report upon him, and that is very likely to be coloured by the police view of the man's politics and race. One man whom I accompanied before the tribunal got through, although he would not have done had I not been with him, because he was a Socialist and would certainly have been put in Class B because the police had noted that he had had political connections of so dangerous a nature. You and I all know how harmless the Socialists are, but there is quite a number of policemen who still think a Socialist is something red and terrible.

I wish my right hon. Friend would realise that every one of these people has already been vetted over and over again. In the first place, the police know all about them; they vetted them before the internment. Then the tribunals, with the police evidence before them, vetted them all again. There has been no case of a man being put into any classification without the fullest examination of him and of his past. Those who were put in Class C were allowed to go free. When the question of internment arose the police again examined all these cases. One of my friends said he was visited by the police three times a day for a fortnight. His house was searched, and everything was done to see whether there was anything which would give the police a case. And now there is to be another examination, if my right hon. Friend thinks it is necessary. It is not necessary. All the material is there, and all that it means is further delay, further excuse for keeping people in internment. Many of these people are in the seventh heaven of satisfaction because they are now in the Pioneers. Their spirit is exactly what I want. I am quite satisfied that the people I want to see released, those who hate Hitler enough to join the Army rather than go into any other job, will now be released if they pass the doctor.

But it is very difficult now to get into the Pioneers. It is both difficult to pass the medical test, and having passed it, to get accepted. It is even more difficult to get into the Pioneers than into the R.A.F. That has not been taken into account; if my right hon. Friend finds that the releases are not mounting as quickly as he could wish, may I suggest that there will shortly be a Jewish Army which might take, on easier terms, many of the people who have failed for the Pioneers, not through serious physical incapacity, but merely because they do not come up to the extremely high standards of reliability demanded in that Corps?

Then we come to the remainder. I think my right hon. Friend estimated that there are about 2,000 who have been rejected by the Pioneers for one reason or another. According to this scheme, they are now to go again before a tribunal. The tribunals manage about three cases a day. Sitting five days a week, one tribunal will dispose of perhaps a dozen or two dozen cases in a week. Unless an enormous number of tribunals are set up, some of these 2,000 people will still be waiting for release at the end of the war. It will be a question of years unless steps are taken to appoint a great many tribunals or unless they are released from the necessity of having a personal examination. Members of the tribunals are paid, I think, at the rate of 20 guineas a week. At any rate, it is a very substantial amount for the briefless barristers who are apparently the only people eligible. The question might be considered of including unpaid justices of the peace as members of the tribunals, for they are really quite as competent as the ordinary briefless barristers, and would, I think, dispose of the cases more quickly. If people are paid by time and not by piece, it is sad, but perfectly understandable of human nature, that the job takes much longer. I have pointed out the difficulties that the right hon. Gentleman has to face if he insists upon adhering everlastingly to this policy of general internment.

The arguments that he uses, and that his predecessor used, about public safety are not sound, and are not believed even by the Department. The arguments put forward have betrayed their own insincerity. One of the arguments was that these people were interned in their own interests, because if they were left at large they would have been murdered by rioters, set upon by the hordes of savage Englishmen. People who use that sort of argument mistake the mind and nature of the ordinary Englishman to-day. We have been bombed day and night all over this country for nearly 12 weeks. If ever the savage brute was likely to be aroused in the Englishman it would have been during these 12 weeks. There has been no single case of an Englishman or Englishwoman turning on these unfortunate refugees. In the shelters they are all suffering together. There is no excuse for such an argument. The German Jew, who hates Hitler, is safe in England today. The excuse that we intern them for their own safety is one of which I am ashamed.

The next excuse was that there might be among these refugees some one who was the agent of Hitler or was masquerading as a Jew in order to form part of the Fifth Column. The danger of that has always been exaggerated. When Holland was overrun the traitors were not the unfortunate refugees, but people living in Holland, who spoke Dutch as their natural language. Here, too, how difficult it would be to be a traitor if you could not speak English. The natural person to be employed as a spy is someone who cannot be distinguished from any ordinary citizen. Not a single refugee coming to this country has been charged with being in touch with the enemy. I know that there may have been cases where M.I.5 have been suspicious, but no case has ever been proved. I have worried Ministers endlessly for information about any single case, and they have not been able to tell me of one, even privately. The danger is smaller, indeed, than it would be from an equal number of English people. That it is not great is proved by the fact that the Government are prepared to release people to hold key positions. There may as probably be dangerous people among those, who could be very dangerous indeed. Then there was the danger of invasion. It is ridiculous to suggest that that danger is as great now.

We might now take a view which is more in consonance with British tradition, and wipe out what has undoubtedly been a blot on our conduct of this war. It is easy to say that it gives a bad impression of British justice and sanity to intern all these aliens universally, but there is something more than that involved. I have instanced the case of Prince von Stahremberg. He is an enemy alien, and his past is well known. He has been a Fascist ever since he grew up. He is undoubtedly dangerous. Yet he is employed by the Government in a key position in the Air Force, and we are told that we ought to be grateful to him for helping us! If we employ him, there is not much reason for saying that his compatriots who have been fighting Fascism, and who have suffered for their views, far from being allowed to fight for us, are to be interned and kept idle. That is a policy of humbug. It strikes the people of this country as being ironic that we should, at great expense, intern our friends, who have shown for years that they are. willing to fight for us, and that we should at the same time take men of worse character and worse pasts and put them into responsible positions, where they might be really dangerous. Why is the war going so slowly? That question is being asked, and everybody says, "Fifth Column here; Fifth Column there. They do not want to win! They are afraid of what would happen if Mussolini went. They want to get on terms again with Hitler after the war." The people of this country are annoyed because they do not understand why there should be this tenderness towards our enemies and this hostility towards our friends.

A great many people in this country still cherish the belief that this is a war between England and Germany. It is nothing of the sort. It is a war between democracy and freedom on the one side, and Nazism and tyranny on the other. The division cuts through every class in every country. It is no longer a question of whether a man was born in Germany or in England; it is a question of whether he wants to live free, or among the Herrenvolk in dutiful subjection. You have in any country people who take either point of view. I myself have often felt that this policy of internment is so insane that it must be devised in the interests of our enemies. We want men to work. This war is becoming a question of man-power. The more people you intern, the more you hamper your own efforts to produce the war materials and foodstuffs to win the war.

The worst case is not that of the Home Office; at the present time, it is undoubtedly Palestine. Just see what has happened in this last month in Palestine. Two ships loaded with refugees from Germany and Rumania got to Haifa in Palestine. They were not allowed to land; they were to be deported not back to where they came from, but to a British Colony. For that purpose they managed to squeeze out of the Ministry of Shipping a good ship capable of carrying 2,000 people at a time when every ton of shipping ought to have been used in taking help to the Greeks, and munitions to our various forces. I could have told them what would have happened to that ship. Before she sailed a hole was blown in her, and she went down. We have lost that ship. Of the 2,000 who were to be deported, those who were not drowned are now safe; that is to say, they will be allowed to stop in Palestine. They will be allowed to stay in a concentration camp in Palestine! Of all people anxious, only as internees can be, to fight our common enemy, to work in any way to produce shells against our common enemy, they are interned and kept idle. They were to have been sent to this island and kept idle at a cost to the taxpayers of this country of £100,000 a year in concentration camps. While Hitler is going about this world collecting alien slaves, we turn away willing voluntary workers because they are aliens and put them into concentration camps. That is not sane, unless indeed it be that people who insist on this policy desire that we shall be friendly and live afterwards with Hitler.

The Home Office has come under a new Chief who is so far persevering in the old policy. We have got rid in the fighting Services of many of the old men, and the new Chief at the Home Office might spend his time advantageously by getting rid of some of the old men in that Department who have lived too long under old pre-war ideas. They cannot acclimatise themselves to the idea that this is a common fight, that the Socialists and the anti-Fascists are our friends, and that the Fascists and Nazis, whatever their race, religion, creed or country, are our enemies. They have no longer to divide the world into the British citizens, and the rest, but to distinguish between those who are for freedom and those who are against us.

If you let out of prison those who happen to be British but are against us, you should at least have the decency to treat those who are not British and who are on our side and wish to help us, the same as you treat the British citizen who has been interned. I do not want one British citizen to be kept in gaol unless he is really dangerous nor do I want one Jew-German or anti-Fascist Italian to be kept interned unless he is really dangerous. Our Government would be well advised to check the uneducated demand,. if it exists, for the persecution of enemy aliens; and to treat both the British Fascist and the German alien with exactly the same measure of justice and regard to the security of the State. They should make no difference, and then the people of this country, with their natural decency, will come to make no difference also.

I welcome very warmly much of what my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary said. I feel that still a certain amount requires to be done, and I hope that you, Mr. Speaker, and the House will be willing to bear with me for a few minutes while I refer to the principles upon which the treatment of aliens and our policy of internment should be based. If I seem to be straying perhaps from the subject of Debate, it is because I feel that the same principles apply to the whole of our attitude towards aliens as to the specific question of internment, and without the guidance of members our actions will be hesitant, timid and inconsistent.

We have heard, in this House and elsewhere, very often lately that we ought to define our war aims. Personally, I do not believe that the time is ripe for any such detailed definition, but, with many others who hold that view, I would urge that we should apply in our policy and in our actions now the main principles upon which later any stable and reasonable peace will have to be based. We have to set against Hitler's doctrine of racial superiority something better and more credible, and something which can move the hearts of common men. Every soldier knows that the moral factor counts as much as the material factor in battle. He is not at all ashamed to say it. It is in his manuals and his drill books. If, without detailed definition, we can by our actions now give to our own people and to the world a clear idea of the principles upon which ultimately peace must be based, not only shall we find it easier to build a stable and reasonable peace when the day comes, but we shall provide the moral factor—that sense of something worth while for which we are fighting which will knit the people of the British Commonwealth with their Allies and their alien friends into an invincible striking force. On Hitler's side we have the doctrine of racial superiority which other people must acknowledge or be suppressed. On our side what happens? A Polish friend of mine, a professor of agriculture in Warsaw, recently spoke at a little party given by some English friends. His words illustrate better than I can say what most of us are proud to believe is the primary aim of Britain in the present struggle. I will read a few extracts from his speech: orderly development would end; all the hopes of common men the world over, that their rights, privileges, and institutions may be allowed to develop without violence, would vanish. It is something which is bigger than the Empire we are fighting for; it is for an orderly plan of human development and affects us all alike, whether we are foreign or British.

Hon. Members may be asking, What has all this to be with alien internees? I think it has very much to do with the question. It provides a background to any reasonable solution of the problem. The trouble with our treatment of aliens has been that no clear policy has been in mind. Are we to accept their help or not? Is this fight their fight as well as ours? When we have decided that they are our friends, they should no longer be interned but treated as welcome, not unwelcome, guests. Are we to give them the opportunity to serve the common cause or follow them about with petty restrictions and supervision as though they belonged to an inferior race?

I realise that widespread internment was necessary last summer. I recognise that anti-Nazism or anti-Fascism covers a wide variety of doctrines and practices, not all of them desirable. I know very well that there are traitors among aliens who are now interned in this country, and I am aware that they are not always easily recognised, any more than traitors with British passports. I also recognise, and I would like to pay a warm tribute to, the humanity and broad-mindedness in general of those who have had to administer the policy which has been adopted. I realise that the Home Office has had an almost intolerably difficult task. I know that most officers in the camps are human and generous men and that many of them have won the regard, and often the friendship, of those who have been interned. I admit all these things, but I still say that a change of attitude is necessary and that a policy which recognises frankly that many of these people are really our allies should be adopted. Many of them are prepared to do all and risk all in the crusade which is theirs just as much as ours. What I object to is not widespread internment but three of its characteristics—first, the indiscriminate nature by which people who are perfectly well known to British citizens of unquestioned judgment to be loyal and faithful supporters of our cause were, and still are, treated in exactly the same way as those whose antecedents are questionable; secondly, the appalling delays which affect the whole business; and, thirdly, the way in which first-class brains, indispensable skill and willing hands, ready for our service, are not being used.

As regards the indiscriminate character of the internment, there are many responsible agencies and people who have been concerned since 1933 in helping and restoring victims of Nazi oppression. Most of these agencies and people are not of any political complexion and have no ideological axe to grind. Hatred of a bully is common to all classes in this country. Scientific bodies, learned universities and their colleges, medical schools and research institutes knew many of these people intimately and have lived with them, yet none of these were consulted when their friends, colleagues and employés were suddenly interned, with consequent grave damage to their work. One almost believes that the people who adopted, and persisted in, this panic policy were unaware of the high quality of these bodies, institutions and persons, from whom evidence could have been obtained as to the complete reliability, and often the complete devotion to our cause of those who were suddenly torn away and in many cases transported to the other side of the earth.

As regards delays, this is becoming a by-word. Recently at the Royal Society we received from the Isle of Man an application for release, for our eventual recommendation to the Home Office, which took 42 days in coming, which works out at a quarter of a mile per hour, or less than the speed of a tortoise. The case of Mr. Friedlander, of Trinity College, Cambridge, is well known, and I will not rub it in. I could go on giving cases, but most hon. Members will have plenty of their own knowledge. These cases, I know, sometimes concern people of great distinction. If these delays occur with them, what happens to other poor creatures who are just as honest and worthy but are unknown? Why should a first-class engineer, whose only anxiety is to help this country, be kept, merely because he is an Italian, waiting for five months for a special committee to consider his case when it is perfectly evident to a good many intelligent men who know him that he should be released? Why has it taken months for permission to be given to aliens, already released, to continue the important work of wound healing at Cambridge? Surely the subject of wound healing is of sufficient importance now to warrant the cutting of red tape. Why are there all the similar delays in the case of honourable but humble people, equally worthy but not equally well known?

As to the failure to use the brains, skill and loyalty freely available to our cause, may I give an instance or two? A medical doctor, a refugee from Nazi oppression, came here in 1933. He obtained his British medical qualification. In 1938, applied for naturalisation, which was near to being granted when the war broke .out. In the summer of 1939, before the war, he volunteered for the Emergency Medical Service. In September he resigned the practice he had built up, and joined that service. He served in a hospital until May. On 12th May, he was interned; on 5th November, he was released—six months wasted. One would have thought we might decently have said to him, and I am sure he would very readily have understood—" Sorry old chap, forgive us for the mistake, you appreciate our difficulties last summer, but we hope you will go back to the job you left before we put you in jug." Not a bit. He was informed that probably he could not go back to the Emergency Medical Service. He had lost his practice. He was compensated for that, for the six months of internment, for the breakage of a written contract of at least 12 months' employment in the Emergency Medical Service, by a gratuity of one month's pay, which he was forced to accept because he and his family were penniless. Yet, everybody knows that doctors are required, and will be urgently required before the spring. There is an urgent need now for physicists and engineers with special qualifications. I am very well aware of this need from my connection with the Central Register, and for other reasons. Can aliens be employed? Not at all. We are told that only persons of pure British descent can be accepted. Had Marlborough insisted that his troops should be of pure British descent, Blenheim House would never have been built. Many of the people we might employ are still interned, some of them on the other side of the earth, although nobody, except a few Colonel Blimps who do not know them, denies their qualifications or their loyalty.

A biologist I know, a man of considerable distinction, had been acting as biology master at an English public school. He was universally respected and liked both by masters and boys. He was interned. The school kept his job open for him; it is still keeping his two sons free of payment. When he was released, he was told—not by the school—that he could not go back. It is hard enough to find schoolmasters now, but the school had to fill his place, and he has to be maintained by the charitable fund of the Society for the Protection of Science and Learning, instead of earning his living usefully. Fortunately, things are getting better in this respect, but nowhere near fast enough.

I would like in this connection to pay a warm tribute to the work of the International Labour Branch of the Ministry of Labour and National Service. So far as policy allows, this organisation is admirably equipped to find the best use for our alien friends in our common cause. It acts as an employment agency not only for aliens of allied nationality, but for friendly aliens of enemy origin, and some of these may be released to fill the jobs it finds. Given a more liberal policy towards the employment of aliens and the removal of some of the present restrictions, the International Labour Branch will do, as it has begun to do, very great service not only in relation to the proper use of man-power and woman-power, but to that change of attitude towards our alien friends which is an essential basis for any reasonable statement of war aims in the future.

Again, in another direction, as we have heard from the Home Secretary, matters have improved. I cordially welcome the inducement to join the Pioneer Corps, of which the Home Secretary spoke last week, as I welcome much of his statement to-day. If our alien friends are to achieve equality with our own young men who have gone away to the war, they will join the Fighting Services. But I make one reservation. Many of those who have joined, or might join, have high technical and scientific qualifications. They are much better suited to such regiments as the Royal Artillery, the Royal Corps of Signals, the Royal Engineers, or the Royal Army Medical Corps, than they are to the Pioneer Corps. Their special qualifications are rather wasted in that corps. If it could be made publicly known that a man who joins the Pioneer Corps, who has good technical qualifications suited to another branch of the Service, and who has the personal qualities required to make him a good soldier, can, after a probationary period in the Pioneer Corps, be transferred to another unit, I believe there would be much greater readiness to use this method of release from internment. A good physicist or engineer, for example, or a medical student, who knows perfectly well how and where he can best serve does not jump at the chance to join the Pioneer Corps. Sometimes, even, he is told that he cannot do so because he is, or would be if he were released, in a reserved occupation; but if this opportunity of transfer existed, many of these people, eager to get their own back on Hitler, would readily join our Forces. They would join them more readily, I admit, if they knew that the petty restrictions of which I will speak in a moment would not affect their wives and families when they had gone.

We hear again and again that no stigma attaches to internment, but the vexatious restrictions and petty annoyances that await a man and his family when he is released can scarcely convince him that we mean it. I know of a man of some scientific distinction and the highest character who was interned until recently and then released. The friendliness and tolerance of his view of the whole business of internment are shown by an article of his which was published in the "Spectator" of last week. I asked him recently what he was not allowed to do since he has been out. Here is the list: he may not possess or drive a motor car, he may not own or ride a bicycle, he may not have a radio, he may not be out after 10.30 p.m., he may not enter the laboratories or library where he might continue his work because of the secret work which is supposed to be going on in them. Personally, knowing him well, I should be glad to employ him, knowing his capacity and loyalty, in any work, however secret. He tells me, however, that he is still allowed to push the family pram, so that all is not lost. From the Isle of Man, during the Battle of France, an interned alien wrote to three friends of his these words: pure British descent or not? Racial snobbishness, delay and timidity are very poor weapons to fight with against the crazy devotion of a great but misguided people.

I am very sorry that the Debate brought the hon. Member for the University of Cambridge (Dr. Hill) to his feet at this time, when there are few within the House who had the opportunity of hearing his speech. For my part, I would say at once that I cannot agree more than I do with him on the general thesis on which his observations were founded. This is not the time when any statement of precise objects of war aims can be made without such a statement recoiling upon us and proving an embarrassment at every turn of the road. But this is a time when in other aspects of affairs which are under our control we should set out a way of life, and a standard of justice which, by its unmistakable differentiation from that practised by our enemy in this war, will be a great reinforcement to the efforts and force of our Armies. It will become all the more important as the war goes on, and as war weariness begins to inflict itself upon the armies and fighting men wherever they are to be found. It is in this treatment of the alien population in our midst that we have failed to make, but which we can still make, a most striking example of the difference in aims and ideals between ourselves and our opponents. These 20,000 people are going to be 20,000 ambassadors when the war is over. They may be friendly ambassadors or hostile ambassadors. Let us see, therefore, that from now on we do not take any steps which will make them hostile.

The main part of the Debate has ranged on the question of loyalty, and in this House we are all agreed that the question of security must override all other considerations. But, if the question of alien internees as a mass is in question at all, I do not think any more striking evidence of their loyalty as a class can be found than the fact that they are, to-day, in overwhelming majority, still loyal to this country and its ideals even after the treatment to which they have been subjected since they were interned. I am not one of those who like to dwell on recrimination, although the Prime Minister did tell us that the use of re- criminations about the past were to try to secure sound conduct for the future. I was glad to hear the statement of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. It is quite clear, that, ever since May or June, we have tried painfully to recover from that lamentable and discreditable state into which we were brought in regard to this question by the unmitigated administrative incompetence, not only in the Home Office, but also in the War Office, and on the part of anyone who had contact with the problem at all. It is perfectly right, as my right hon. Friend says, that there were many mitigating circumstances. We all know that there were. In creature comforts for the camps and in amenities, there were other competing claims for which perhaps there were higher chances. We know that many delays which took place were inevitable, but on the other hand there were administrative delays which were not. I welcome the statement of my right hon. Friend that he was determined to speed up the machinery. I associate myself with what was said in that regard by the hon. Member for the University of Cambridge. It is of the utmost consequence that this machinery should be speeded up. I had made a note to suggest that it was time for an entirely fresh mind to be brought into the Home Office to look into these methods of registers, folios, research and the like, but I am relieved to find that that step has already taken place.

I gather that it is the policy of the Government to find out as soon as possible the irreducible minimum of those who are to remain in the camps. I welcome the somewhat tardy recognition that aliens who can pass the security test are to have an opportunity of making some contribution to the common cause, instead of pathetically remaining in idleness in camps. They are advised to join the Pioneer Corps, but even in that we seem to be dogged by some left-handed evil genius which has prompted us to deal with the problem in that way. Why could it not be dealt with on the lines suggested by Allied Governments in this country? Why should anyone have to go into the Pioneer Corps and labour to extract themselves from its clutches if they are able to make a more valuable contribution elsewhere? Why should not they having joined the A.M.P.C., step into the schedule of reserved occupations? Is there to be a special machinery set up for them? The Home Secretary showed the other day that he recognised that there was a point there. I beg that attention will be given to that matter in order that there may not be months of delay before a man who ought never to have been asked to carry on the duties of an ordinary soldier in the ranks is able to make a proper contribution to the common cause. Apart from that, it is now a matter of very great consequence indeed from the point of view of maintaining moral, which in the last six months has had many shocks, many trials, many false hopes and many disappointments, that steps should be taken with the utmost celerity to see that they all have occupation of some kind. If the arrangements with regard to the A.M.P.C. and the releases can be carried out quickly, it will be possible for the Government to know exactly what they have to deal with in the camps and to make preparations.

A scheme has been put forward for dealing with the subject of employment in the Isle of Man. I understand it has not been considered because it has been said that the location is not suitable for carrying on a transaction of that kind. It was a scheme which embraced agriculture, forestry, handicraft work and the like. If it has been discouraged by the Isle of Man Government because the locality is not ideal, or because it cannot be guaranteed to be a complete financial success, I would point out that, in restoring the moral of many of these unfortunate people, a scheme of work would be very well worth carrying out if it was not economically sound. The essential thing is that it should be a scheme which would provide work and contentment and maintain the moral of these people. If it is a fact that the Isle of Man Government did not look with favour upon any particular scheme the responsibilities of His Majesty's Government are not discharged thereby. If any particular scheme is not in every respect suitable, it is up to them to produce a better. I would urge as a practical step that some industrial director should be sent to the island now, that he should review the material there and prepare schemes of co-operative work between camp and camp—mutual services and the like. That should be done without any delay. Work of a preparatory nature could be done now and a scheme of a more ambitious character might come later. I should like to ask also whether it is now the case that men and women in internment camps whose tools of trade are books have been provided with them or, if not provided, whether they know that there is machinery whereby they can apply for books which they may require for study and research.

The most urgent thing in connection with this troublesome, difficult problem is that the whole of the machinery should be speeded up in order that we may find out exactly what we have to do and the best way in which it can be done. We are indebted to the hon. Member for Cambridge University for setting out this problem in its international aspect. There is no way in which we can more clearly differentiate ourselves from our enemies in this war than by the proper handling of a question of this kind. I think our Ministry of Information has lamentably failed in emphasising in the last 12 months the various and important humanitarian things that we have done. Merely the extension of the old age pension system and proposing to do away with the means test mean something to the people who are ground down under Nazi heels. They would ask, Who are these people who are bothering with things of this kind in wartime? What more striking illustration could there be of the difference in mind and outlook than to see such treatment of refugees in our midst? This is a small problem. There are some 20,000 of these people. We are asking the Government to provide occupation and to give them an opportunity of working for the common cause. That is not the scale on which Hitler works. He works in hundreds of thousands. They are sent from Lorraine, from France, from Poland and from Czecho-Slovakia into slavery. Do not let us fail in making a totally different kind of job, with different ideals and a different outlook, with regard to 20,000 refugees in our midst.

Following what has been said by the last two speakers, I want to bring to the attention of the House the case of a single individual. This is a story which I think has now become, unless there is something I do not understand, a real international disgrace. I refer to the case of Friedelinde Wagner, the 21-year-old grand-daughter of Wagner, and great grand-daughter of Liszt. I knew this young woman before the war. I met her in Paris. For 18 months before the war she had taken a violent dislike and detestation of her former hero, Adolf Hitler. The Wagners formerly did a great deal to help Hitler on his way. This young woman has many of the obstinate and rather unattractive qualities of her grandfather. She forms violent opinions, and, deep in her heart, she detested this man Hitler after a time. She would not live in Germany under the Nazi system and, I think bravely, made her way to Switzerland. When the war broke out she wrote to me, and it seemed obvious that here was a woman who would be of great propaganda value. I went to the Foreign Office. First I saw the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Chelsea (Sir S. Hoare), who sent me to Sir Robert Vansittart. He set the machinery of the Foreign Office in motion to bring her from Switzerland. The motion did not get very far, and I found myself involved with the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs, who was entirely in favour of what I was doing. Months went by, and several times I met the Under-Secretary, who said to me. "We are doing what we can, but it is difficult." I said, "It must be difficult, for she wants to come here, you want her to come, and the French will allow her to come. The difficulties must be enormous." Six or seven months went by and I was wise enough to invoke the assistance of the Parliamentary Private Secretary to the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs, and he got her here.

When Miss Wagner arrived I arranged with the "Daily Sketch" that she should start a series of articles about the man Hitler whom she knew. It was a bit late because no longer did the world want to be convinced about Hitler's guilt. Nevertheless, it was still an interesting study which she had to give to the world. She denounced Hitler and exposed him as the mountebank he is and revealed the secrets of the family. Then came the sudden arrest of everybody, and this young woman was arrested. They arrested this little girl, who had risked her life and future to give King's evidence against Hitler, and the police found—very naturally, for her only excuse for speaking to the world was that she was a friend of Hitler—photographs of her and Hitler together. That convinced the police, and in she went. I made representations over and over again, and never once has my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary failed to answer my letters and to speak to me in the Lobby. I have had insistent courtesy, and the file of correspondence must be enormous.

To continue this lamentable story, Toscanini, that greatest of our conductors, who left Italy years ago because he would not stand Mussolini, heard of this outrage. He sent word to this country, to my friends who were associated with me, saying, "I will pay for the young woman's transportation to South America. I have arranged a position for her there with the Conservatory of Music in Buenos Aires." Once more we went into the correspondence. Every now and again the poor little girl got nearer and nearer the exit, and then something went wrong and back she went in. Months and months have gone by, and Richard Wagner's granddaughter, the great-granddaughter of Liszt, whose only passion is to expose this mountebank of Germany, is not allowed by us to go to Buenos Aires. I do ask the Under-Secretary to give some explanation of what has happened. Is it that those in the Department have got so intertwined that nobody has a final decision? Although I was responsible for bringing her here, I say she is a most unlovable woman, argumentative and opinionated, with the qualities that one dislikes in a Prussian. I do ask the Under-Secretary to look into the case.

I would beg the indulgence of the House if I spread the scope of this Debate a little. We have interned many pro-Fascist nationals, and if they are guilty, I am all in favour of it. We have adopted, on the other hand, a strangely kindly attitude towards the Communists. I regret to have to raise this on the Floor of the House, because as a working journalist I hate the very idea of interference with expression of opinion, but I raise the question of whether the publishers of a certain daily publication in this country should be interned. There is a paper called the "Daily Worker" which every day does its best, and it is well done, to sabotage our war effort, to foul the public life of this country, to create, if possible, revolution, and to discourage the morale of our people and their faith in their leaders. Three or four days ago it published a cartoon of our Minister of Labour and National Defence assuring the workers that they were getting enough pay. One hand was behind his back, and capitalists were passing bribes into that hand. That is a criminal charge against a Minister. Is there to be no answer?

When the Greeks came into the war this paper insulted the Greeks with every epithet it could find. When Mr. Chamberlain was not yet buried but lying dead, it published the most obscene cartoon that I have ever seen in any publication. Why do not we face the position? Every day this journal urges by implication—and stronger than that—sabotage. That is only what it can mean. It urges and supports every strike. It denounces everything in our public life. If Hitler were paying for it, it would be worth a great deal of money to him. I suggest to the Under-Secretary that the Government should consider this matter very seriously. If not complete suppression of the paper, suspension for six months would be a very timely warning. I have raised this matter with the regret of a working journalist calling attention to something which I think is a foul and obscene travesty of responsible journalism.

I do not want to follow the hon. Member for Wood Green (Mr. Baxter) in the interesting issue he raised just now, except to say that we should be very careful of how we impede the free expression of public opinion in this country, however much we disagree with it. But this is my point—if we want to estimate the extent of the actual influence which that paper has had upon public opinion, I suggest that we should study the percentage of people who at by-elections—whenever a by-election is forced upon us it is always by an anti-war candidate—vote for that candidate, and also study the percentage of people who are conscientious objectors. I think that will show that we can let the dogs bark, because the barking has not had much effect upon the war effort or the resolution of this country.

Because the Fascists are definitely active enemies of this country. They do more than bark, they bite, or would bite if they got the chance.

Let me come back to the main issue in this Debate. It has been an interesting Debate, one of several on the refugee question, and I do not wish to deal with any of the points which I raised in previous Debates or which have been dealt with by other speakers, because to a considerable extent they have been met in the action taken in the past few weeks and by the very substantial reforms made by the Home Secretary. I want to concentrate almost entirely upon points that have been very little canvassed either in this House or in the Press. I must begin with a short reference to the unfortunate conflict of opinion between the Under-Secretary and myself at Question Time to-day. I was sorry for it, because I have always found the Under-Secretary very pleasant, and he has often been helpful to me in this matter. I gave my explanation of the main point which he raised. He said there was no truth whatever in my Supplementary Question, which alleged that a restriction had been placed upon certain aliens from writing letters to Members of Parliament. I gave my reasons, and I think I justified myself in the eyes of the House. Although the restriction was withdrawn three weeks ago I had not been told and I ought to have been told.

What I want to raise now is the point in the second part of my Question, which was whether the Minister was aware that prisoners were not being allowed to appeal to the Home Secretary. Nothing more was said about that. As he said that there was no truth in my supplementary, I ought to give my justification for it. I gave it to the Under-Secretary nearly a week ago, in a letter which I sent by hand and to which I asked his particular attention as it was on a new point. I was informed by a solicitor of high standing, who visits a prison in Liverpool, where he is on the most excellent terms with the most excellent and humane governor of that prison, that he had asked permission to draft a petition for the detenus and other prisoners and send it to the Home Secretary. The Governor told him that he could not do so, but that he, the solicitor, might write to the Home Secretary on the prisoners' behalf. Did not that justify me in saying that there was a prohibition against appeals to the Home Secretary? The Governor is not the kind of man who usually makes a mistake, but he may have done so. I was justified, but I leave it to the Home Secretary to find out the real facts. If it is not true that prisoners are prohibited from making appeals to the Home Secretary the prisoners ought to be told so.

I want to say something further about the detenus. I am not going to deal with them at great length, but with a grievance which I personally feel. I think this matter is a greater reproach to the justice and humanity of this country than anything which has happened in connection with the internees. There was some justification for the treatment of the internees. There was divided control between the War Office and the Home Office, and vast numbers of different kinds of people were affected by internment orders. There were only 500 or 600 detenus, of whom there was only one kind. They have been imprisoned for months. They are under the sole control of the Home Office. They are in prisons which are maintained by the British taxpayer and they have been left there week after week and month after month without being told why they are there. In many cases they have not been interviewed by anybody and they have not even had formal acknowledgments of the letters they used to be allowed to write before the operation of this new rule against writing to the Home Secretary. They are living under conditions which are definitely punitive, although the conditions may not be intended to be so.

I shall not enlarge upon this matter, because I want to deal with other points, but I do want to stress how badly this affects our country's reputation for humanity, justice and humane conditions. I hope that these conditions will be set right, and I make an appeal to the Home Secretary. It would take him no more than half an hour to write a circular letter to these people, who have been there for so long without knowing why they are there or how long they will be kept there. Let him tell them in general terms what the position is, about the establishment of this new committee under Sir Francis Lindley, that they can appeal to the committee and that facilities will be given to them to do so. Further, let him give them some inkling of knowledge that they are not there for life or for years. How can they tell how long they may be there? Some of them may be international crooks or spies, or have dock records behind them, but of many of them I am certain, from what I know of human nature, that is not the case; but has not even a criminal a right to be heard in his own defence? Is it not contrary to every tradition of British justice that he should be left week after week, month after month, without the slightest hope of ever being confronted with his accusers or anybody representing them, not being told why he is there and not being allowed to bring his own witnesses in his defence? I gather that the Lindley Committee is intended to remedy that injustice, and I hope that the right will be given to these people to defend themselves. Why have not they been made aware of the existence of that committee? I know from a letter which I received from the same solicitor a fortnight ago that the prison governor had not been told that such a committee had been set up.

I will now pass to other questions which we have been discussing to-day. I will not discuss the general policy of internment. I think that there was a good deal of excuse for it at the time. What has worried me are the unbelievable conditions attaching to it. In war-time there is a good deal of excuse for a certain amount of inefficiency. I dare say that some of it could not have been avoided, but it might have been remedied sooner. A good deal of it would not have occurred if there had been more competent and less divided administration. I would recommend the Home Secretary to read a most brilliant and able criticism of the policy and the way in which it has been interpreted, which I received a few weeks ago. It is a document dated the 5th November from the Central Promenade camp at Douglas, and it was drawn up by a group of internees. I would ask the Home Secretary to read that document. I believe a great deal of it is absolutely justified, word for word. I will read only one or two short extracts: been adopted. Within 48 hours after the first White Paper was issued we covered the ground which it took the Home Office three months to cover. I do not say that the details of our categories have always been accepted; generally, the actual category adopted was not so good as the one we recommended, but they have covered the same ground.

The weakness of this latest category, or any other, is this perpetual reference to a tribunal. I have no doubt that these tribunals appointed to consider the cases of people in Category 19 and the rest are excellent and able tribunals, but heavens, how slowly they work. Let me take an instance. The Category B tribunal in the Isle of Man has now been sitting, I think, for eight weeks. A few days ago I received a letter dated 5th November from what I believe to be a very reliable refugee in Port Erin. She tells me that there are somewhere between three and four thousand cases to be reviewed by this tribunal. They are being taken alphabetically, with an occasional cross-section of special cases, and after eight weeks' work the tribunal have reached the B's. If it takes eight weeks to reach B, how long will it take to reach X, Y and Z? How long are these people to remain in internment? Because it should be noted that when a man or woman is reclassified in Category C, that does not mean he or she gets out. This same lady tells me that, of the internees who were removed to Category C on the advice of the tribunal in the Isle of Man seven weeks before her letter was written, not one has left the island. Then, there is further delay.

Is it necessary always to have a tribunal to review these cases when they have already appeared before one or two tribunals? I beg the Home Secretary to consider this suggestion. If he is not going to accept the verdict of the tribunals which originally placed an internee in Category C, will he not accept the verdict of the other two tribunals if both agree that the person concerned deserves to be placed in Category C? Will the new tribunal now sitting in the Isle of Man be any better? I have had a bitter letter of complaint from one who has appeared before the Appeal Tribunal. She is a young woman, and when she came before the Appeal Tribunal she was asked to give her name. When she did she was told that they knew all about her and that the Home Office wanted her to stay. She was placed in A Category, which, in her opinion, stamps her as a deadly enemy of this country. I do not think it is meant that way, but it does. Is this the sort of chance that these tribunals are going to give the internees? If they are to be brought before a tribunal, at least they ought to be allowed to state their case. Shorten this tribunal business, if you can, by at least releasing from the necessity of appearing before another tribunal those who have appeared before tribunals twice and each time have been found to be people not deserving internment or any kind of restriction—because that is what it means to be put in Category C.

I will refer to a subject which I have never heard ventilated in the House. That is the question of what happens to an uninterned refugee. Is it realised how extraordinarily the power of control which is given to chief constables over the entry of aliens to protected areas is working out. Let me give some instances. One is the case of a British woman, born in Glasgow, who has never been out of Great Britain, and who speaks not a word of German. She married a German, who left Germany when he was 15 and has had no communication with Germany since his aged parents died 22 years ago. They were driven out of a protected area, and went to Glasgow. The woman had kept a boarding-house. Some time ago she asked whether she could visit her home to see how the person whom she had left in charge of the boarding-house was going on. The application was refused. I made an appeal on her behalf, and she was allowed to go back once. In another case a German woman who had been driven out of a protected area was not allowed to go back to visit her children, aged one year and three years. In other cases men were allowed by the Home Secretary to go back because they were doing work of national importance. The chief constable did not like the decision, so he took it out of the aliens by refusing permission for, in one case the wife and in another case the aged mother, to go back with them.

I know of cases where doctors who have painfully built up practices in this country wanted, after being released from internment, to go back to Liverpool. One of them had been driven to a village in Cumberland. These people had endless influential friends in Liverpool, who did their utmost to get the chief constable to allow them to return, but he refused. Heaven knows, Liverpool is a dangerous spot; but what spot in this country is not dangerous? Is it safe to allow swarms of I.R.A. Irishmen, of Lascars, Dutchmen, and people of every nationality in the world to roam the streets of Liverpool—and you cannot drive them out, because many of them are vagrants—and not allow trusted people, who are known to their neighbours and to their patients, to return? I beg the Home Secretary to reconsider the whole question of protected areas in view of the changed military situation. The danger of invasion is not now so menacing. Above all, let him take into consideration that our chief constables, by their training and experience, are not the best people to undertake this delicate job of deciding who can and who cannot be trusted to enter protected areas.

We have had, as I am afraid always is the case nowadays, only too short a time in which to debate this subject. I think I had better refer at the outset to the controversy into which the hon. Lady the Member for the Combined Universities (Miss Rathbone) and myself were unfortunately drawn at Question Time to-day in connection with a Supplementary Question, in which she asked, Was it not the fact that these neutral and non-enemy aliens detained under the Deportation Order procedure have now been forbidden to write to Members of Parliament or to make an appeal to the Home Secretary? The practice followed by Home Secretaries without number for innumerable years has been that persons detained in prison, either as a result of conviction or as a result of administrative order, have not been permitted to correspond direct with Members of Parliament, but every facility has been provided for them, including a special form of petition, to make representations direct to the Home Secretary. That was the peace-time practice, and in the summer of this year, when many hundreds of British subjects were detained under Defence Regulation 18B, it was represented to us that it was a hardship upon these British subjects that they could not correspond direct with their own Members of Parliament. As a result of these representations my right hon. Friend reconsidered the position, and he 'announced on the 17th October in this House that he had reviewed the whole position and had decided that in future persons detained under Defence Regulation 18B should be given the right to correspond direct with Members of Parliament. That was an advance over the normal peace-time practice, and it was done in the light of the fact that there were many hundreds of British subjects detained who had had no trial.

Directly after that announcement, the hon. Lady approached me to seek for the same right for non-enemy aliens detained under Article 12 (5 a ) of the Aliens Order. We had a long discussion. I pointed out to her, among other things, that non-enemy aliens were, of course, not in the same position as British subjects. They had no Member of Parliament of their own to whom they could in the ordinary course of events write, but I assured her that what she had said would be considered, and I further advised that the question of whether or not persons detained under this procedure should be permitted to write to Members of Parliament should, in my view, be considered by the body upon which she sits—the Advisory Council on Aliens, presided over by Lord Lytton. I believe that that course was pursued; at any rate, the Chairman of that body, Lord Lytton, wrote to my right hon. Friend bringing this point forward. He wrote on the 27th October, and I will quote from the letter written to the Chairman of the Advisory Council on Aliens, of which body the hon. Lady is a member, by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary on 20th November:

That is so. I did not hear of any communication made to the Chairman, although I have attended every meeting, and, what is more, the Council of Aliens passed a formal resolution asking that the rule should be rescinded. I asked at yesterday's meeting whether a reply had been received, and I was told that it had not, so there is some excuse for my not knowing of the change in the rule or that a reply had been sent.

Of course, I completely accept the statement of the hon. Lady that she has never had communicated to her this .official letter of 20th November from my right hon. Friend to the Chairman of the Advisory Council. So far as the other part of the hon. Lady's question is concerned, I think my case is even stronger than when I said her allegations were without any foundation whatsoever. Her other allegation was that persons detained under Article 12 (5 a ) of the Aliens Order had been forbidden to make an appeal to the Home Secretary. The hon. Lady's evidence of that is that she had a letter from a solicitor who had been forbidden, as I understood her, by the Governor of Liverpool Prison, himself to draft the petition which a detainee is entitled to make to the Home Secretary. Am I right?

The two things are quite distinct. Every detainee has the right, and every facility is permitted him, to approach the Home Secretary at any time by means of a petition, but the rule is, and I think rightly, that the petition should be the work of the detainee himself and not be drafted for him by some- body else. At any time a solicitor may write to the Home Secretary on his behalf, but we lay it down that the petition which purports to come personally from the detainee should be his work and not that of anybody else.

I did not know of that rule, but it is rather hard on many persons who can hardly speak English. I quoted to the hon. Gentleman the case of another man who wrote to me in very broken English saying that he had been forbidden to write himself to the Home Secretary. He stated that when he was first interned he hardly knew any English. The poor fellow thinks that he knows English now, but he does not. Why should not a solicitor be allowed to help draw up a petition?

As regards the language difficulty, we have facilities at the Home Office for receiving petitions which are drafted in almost any language, and their sense will be duly conveyed to my right hon. Friend, even though he himself may not be familiar with all the different languages in which they are drafted. So far as representations by solicitors are concerned, they are received, and will be received and considered, at any time on behalf of these persons. Therefore, I can assure the hon. Lady that her allegation that these people are forbidden to make an appeal to the Home Secretary is, as I stated in my answer to-day, without any foundation whatsoever.

I should like now to deal with one other point which the hon. Lady made, and that is the number of tribunals. The hon. Lady said that some of the aliens have been before two tribunals already, and therefore, why should they appear before a third tribunal? Let me explain what has been our policy. There were the original tribunals at the outset of the war before which every enemy alien went. Where the original classification was B, or where the police had reason to doubt the C classification having been the proper one, the cases were brought before a second set of tribunals known as the Regional Advisory Committees. We have expressly laid down in the White Paper—and it is a fact which is made into a grievance to some extent with regard to internees—that persons who have been placed in category B by the second tribunal, the Regional Advisory Committee, are not eligible for release under the White Paper. The hon. Lady's complaint now is that persons are being brought before three tribunals.

If two tribunals have classified a person in the B category, that is a condemnation, and it may not be revised; but if the tribunals have classified him in the C category, then in spite of that he has to go before a third tribunal. The hon. Gentleman ought to have it one way or the other. The first and second tribunals were either trustworthy or not, and if they were not, why take their verdict when it was adverse, but not when it was favourable?

The hon. Lady is not quite right because, as far as women are concerned—and after all, it was the women in Category B who were interned en masse —we are giving them a third opportunity. They may have been classified B by the original tribunal at the outset of the war, and also by the Regional Advisory Committee, but in spite of this, we are giving them a third opportunity of coming before a new tribunal, and if they can satisfy it that they ought to be in Category C their release automatically follows. I do not think it ought to be made a cause of complaint that in some cases we give the internee a third opportunity before a tribunal. All the tribunals are established with one idea, and one idea only, and that is to secure the release of as many aliens as possible from internment.

It is not a question of giving them a third opportunity. It is giving them a third opportunity of being turned down. If a person has already been before two tribunals which acquitted him, so to speak, why waste the time of the third tribunal? Why not release the person forthwith, and so lighten the load of the tribunals?

If a man was in Category C when he was interned, and if he brings himself within one of the 24 categories of the White Paper, he is released. It is only where he has been originally classified B that it is necessary for him to establish a case for reclassification.

I was referring to the tribunals which judged Category 19 and Category 22 cases. That is the point. Why are they brought before a tribunal if they come within one of the other categories?

I am afraid I cannot pursue this point further with the hon. Lady, because she seems to make it a grievance against us that we give the aliens more than one opportunity for establishing a case for release.

With regard to the speeches of the right hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Mr. Wedgwood) and the hon. Member for Cambridge University (Professor Hill), both speeches were founded largely on the very simple view that it is perfectly easy to label all these people either as our friends or our enemies. That is taking an altogether too simple view of this problem. Many of these persons are persons with divided loyalty, and it is extremely difficult to ascertain what their true feelings are. May I give the House an example of that? We attempted to segregate pro-Nazis from anti-Nazis, and to put pro-Nazis into a separate camp. It may interest the House to know that some of these people say they are pro-Germans, but object most strongly to being labelled pro-Nazi. It only shows how these people have divided loyalties. If you were to label everyone who was not a pro-Nazi a friend, you would be making the greatest mistake, because some of the persons who are not pro-Nazi definitely want Germany to win this war.

Is that what the Under-Secretary means by being "pro-German," if they want Germany to win the war?

That is what I had in mind. If you are pro-German in this war, it must be assumed that you want Germany to win the war. These people object to being classified as pro-Nazi, but at the same time they would like to see Germany win the war.

The hon. Member for Cambridge University dealt specially with delays. I think there is a certain justification for complaint, but also that a certain number of unjustified complaints are made against the Home Office. Hon. Members must remember that not only in the case of these categories have careful investigations to be made, with reference to other Government Departments, the security services and so forth, but also that our policy has been changing ever since the June internment took place. The first White Paper, which was of a very limited character, was published at the end of July. We had a second edition of the White Paper early in September, and a further one with extensions of categories in October. Then my right hon. Friend announced, on Tuesday of last week, a further large class which might qualify for release. Hon. Members will therefore see that it has been very difficult to give a final and definite reply to any individual case. I knew, and officials in the Department knew, that, although a man did not qualify for release when the question was first raised, in a few weeks' time his case could very probably be dealt with. In many cases final answers have been deliberately held up with a view to dealing with the case at a later stage when a man would qualify for release.

The hon. Member for Wood Green (Mr. Baxter) dealt with a specific case. It was that of a young lady known as Friedelinde Wagner. This young lady is not a refugee from Nazi oppression, and is, as far as I know, almost the only example of a non-refugee who has been admitted to this country after the outbreak of war. It is a very exceptional case. My hon. Friend represented to the Foreign Office that this lady could render great service in the field of propaganda to the Allied cause. The Home Office has been very reluctant, and rightly so, to authorised any visa whatever to persons of pure German birth to come to this country since the outbreak of war. This young lady, on the representations of my hon. Friend, was granted a visa, valid for one month, to enable her to come here and bring over certain propaganda matter which it was said she had prepared. She came to this country and stayed for a month. My hon. Friend pleaded for an extension, and an extension of, I think, two months was granted, but I warned my hon. Friend that if she did not leave the country before those two months expired, I should not be answerable for what might happen to her. I foresaw at the time that this young lady might fall into the internment mesh.

What the hon. Gentleman says is quite true, but the understanding was that the first month's allowance was for her to demonstrate that she was acting against Hitler. She demonstrated that, so did not return to Switzerland or anywhere else. Surely, as a matter of common decency, this country, which uses a woman, does not throw her to the dogs. She must be allowed to stay here.

She wrote certain articles. They were of an anti-Hitler tinge, but we knew that she had been a personal friend of Hitler in the past. The report upon her by our Consul in Switzerland was not altogether favourable. I will not say anything more than that.

Why did not the Foreign Office meet her case? The hon. Gentleman is making a very severe stricture upon the Foreign Office.

My hon. Friend raised this question, and I really think I should be allowed to reply. I was pointing out that she was not a refugee from Nazi oppression. She is an ordinary, pure-blooded German. We had never seen her before she arrived in this country. She wrote certain articles, but I am not by any means satisfied that anyone can establish their loyalty to this country by one or two newspaper articles. If it can be done as easily as that, all these persons now in internment could make a case for immediate release. What I said to my hon. Friend was that, if arrangements for the emigration of this young lady overseas could be made, I should be as pleased as I imagine he would be to see her back. Do I understand from him that some hitch has occurred in the arrangements for her emigration, because we should be only too delighted to have an opportunity of releasing her for that purpose?

It was arranged three months ago. Toscanini supplied the money, and the Argentine Embassy was agreeable. The situation has remained static for three months.

I will look into the point. I have been as anxious to get rid of this young lady as he is. If there has been any hitch, I hope it has been the fault of the lady and her friends, and not on the side of the Home Office.

How is it that there is any doubt about her if she was not interned?

She was interned. It is as the result of that that my hon. Friend has raised the matter.

My hon. Friend raised a quite separate issue, that of the "Daily Worker" and a cartoon of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour. I am afraid I have no brief on that matter, and I should have to have some consultation with my advisers before I gave him any reply.

The hon. Member for East Birkenhead (Mr. White) mentioned a few specific points about conditions in internment camps. I think it shows that great improvements have been made in the internment camps that there has been so little reference in the Debate to the conditions in those camps. Whereas in July and August I was receiving a dozen or more complaints every day, for the last eight or ten weeks I have not received one. There is no doubt, as the hon. Member pointed out, that employment is the crying need. It is the most difficult problem which anybody responsible for an internment policy has to handle. I can give some information about some things that are being done. For instance, if you take your watch to a London jeweller, with a view to having it repaired, as likely as not it will find its way into one of the internment camps in the Isle of Man, where a watch-repairing industry has been established. The boots and shoes of the women internees at Port St. Mary, where a great deal of shoe-leather is worn out because it is an extensive camp, are taken to the men's camps for repair by experienced boot repairers. Six hundred men are going out daily from the male camps to undertake agricultural work. But these things are comparatively small. We have explored many other avenues, but we have met in some cases with difficulties from the trade union side, and opposition from local labour interests on the ground that work which was properly theirs would be performed by internees. We have sent recently to the Isle of Man an experienced welfare officer representing the Home Office to co-ordinate welfare activities, and try and increase the scope of employment for these people.

The numbers in internment are steadily diminishing. My right hon. Friend pointed out that at the peak of the internment policy the numbers were 27,000. Eight thousand releases have been authorised, making 19,000 internees at the present time. Four thousand of these are Category A, most of whom have been sent overseas. In those cases no release can be contemplated before the end of the war. That leaves some 15,000 who may be eligible for release. Of these 3,600 are women who are now being gone through by the new tribunal with a view to reclassification, and probably a large number of them will be released shortly. Another 3,700 are Italians, who again have to be dealt with case by case by tribunals to establish their reliability or otherwise. That leaves in internment about 7,500 Germans and Austrians out of the large number who were originally interned.

I ought to refer to another problem, which is small at present but may become a growing one. That is the problem of persons whose release we have authorised, but who do not desire their freedom. We have about 30 persons in internment camps who, for one reason or another, have expressed their desire to stay. This may become a serious problem as time goes on, especially if a definite promise of a mixed camp were held out. It is evident that there will be some people—and I think it is a reasonable attitude—who would prefer married quarters in the Isle of Man to married quarters, let us say, in the suburbs of London. We shall come to a definite decision one way or the other on this question of a mixed camp as soon as the great bulk of the recruitment for the Pioneer Corps has been concluded. At the present time, as my right hon. Friend said last Tuesday, the best test of a man's friendship or loyalty to this country is his willingness to volunteer for service in our cause. I have always thought it would be intolerable to have at liberty many thousands of young enemy aliens of military age when our own young men are being conscripted for service overseas. We should have had a considerable anti-alien feeling in this country, had aliens been hanging about with nothing to do or had they stepped into good jobs from which British subjects had been taken for compulsory service with the Forces. My right hon. Friend's statement made it clear, so far as men under 50 are concerned, that if they do not come within any of these other categories, then the best way in which they can demonstrate their loyalty to this country is to volunteer for service.

Will the hon. Gentleman deal with my point about machinery? I would put this further question. There are some hundreds of distinguished people on the Central Register of aliens. Is it necessary for them to go into the Pioneer Corps and then have to go through all the rigmarole attendant upon getting out again, which may take weeks?

My hon. Friend will appreciate this difficulty: There is in the camps a considerable number, no doubt, of skilled men whose services would be better employed elsewhere than in the Pioneer Corps. A census is now in progress to ascertain the resources of the camps in that respect. Obviously a man who claims to be, let us say, a skilled machine-tool engineer will have to be subjected to a working test to prove his qualifications. We must also consider the case of the man who has already joined the Pioneer Corps. It would never do for a man who had been hanging back from joining the Pioneer Corps to walk straight into a job at £6 a week, if a fellow engineer, just as skilled as he, who had chosen to volunteer for the Pioneer Corps weeks or months ago, were not given an equal opportunity.

What we propose is to adopt the machinery which the military authorities have for taking skilled men out of the Armed Forces into civilian employment. An hon. Member says the machinery is slow and cumbrous. I only know that 13,000 skilled men, who have been required urgently for particular industries, have been withdrawn from the Army in the last few months, and we shall take note of the hon. Member's point and see that efficient machinery is set up for securing the release from the Pioneer Corps of men who have special qualifications which industry requires at this moment.

The hon. Lady the Member for the Combined English Universities referred to the protected areas policy. It is a military and naval policy, dictated by military and naval considerations, and the Home Office are concerned only with its administration. Hon. Members have complained in the past that there was no uniformity of administration as between one chief con- stable and another in protected areas. Probably they have not realised that the administration of the policy was varied according to the nature of the locality. Certain areas were thought to be more vulnerable to invasion, and there the policy was more strictly enforced than in certain other areas. It is now proposed that in future all protected areas shall be treated alike, and certain cases of great hardship which have arisen in the past will be met by administrative action.

It being the hour appointed for the interruption of Business, the Debate stood adjourned.

Debate to be resumed upon the next Sitting day.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

Adjournment

Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[ Mr. Boulton. ]